DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE ELEVENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday 27th November, 2014

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______ 

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

HARASSMENT OF ZNBC NEWSROOM STAFF

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Dr Katema): Mr Speaker, as directed, I rise to render a ministerial statement on the conduct of some senior Government and Patriotic Front (PF) officials who were reported to have gone to the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) on Sunday, 23rd November, 2014, and harassed and ordered the newsroom staff not to air stories of people with dissenting views.

Mr Mufalali: Hooligans.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, wait a moment. There should be no running commentaries. Otherwise, I will ask the hon.  Member to leave the House and he can follow the proceedings from outside.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government came into office on the premise of, among other hallmarks, taking power to the people. There can never be a better way to do this than to empower people with information so that they make informed choices and decisions. For this reason, the Government’s policy is to defend and promote the freedom of press and expression, as expounded in its party manifesto and the Republican Constitution. The Government’s agenda in this regard is loud and clear.

We want the media to be the eyes and ears of the public. We want the media that serves national rather than narrow interests. We want a media, Mr Speaker, whose priority is to inform the public truthfully, honestly and objectively.

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: For this reason, Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government has continued to undertake various measures to reform and reposition the media so that it plays its full and rightful role in national development. The measures include, but are not limited to the following:

The Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) is now fully operational, with both the board and management in place after over a decade of procrastination by the previous Government.

Mr Speaker, we have embarked on the modernisation of the public media institutions, namely the ZNBC, Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail, in line with our vision and mission to take information closer to the people. This includes, among other interventions, ensuring that the three public media houses have boards in place to direct the affairs of the institutions and recruiting chief executive officers.

Mr Speaker, the three public media houses have continued to rebrand both the quality and quantity of their news due to the autonomy they now enjoy. As part of the on-going Media Reforms, the Government has de-controlled and de-politicised the media in order to bring professionalism and editorial independence to the newsroom.

Mr Speaker, the House may also recall that soon after coming into office over three years ago, the Government unconditionally allowed media practitioners in the country to form the Zambia Media Council (ZAMEC) which is a non-statutory media regulatory body. Further, the Government has accelerated the issuance of radio and television licences. This has resulted in over seventy community and commercial radio stations and about twelve television stations currently operating countrywide.

Mr Speaker, these and other developments are unprecedented and are testimony to the Government’s commitment to the growth of a free, independent and professional media which is a prerequisite to a flourishing democracy such as ours.

Mr Speaker, it is against this backdrop that the Government regrets the incident at the ZNBC where it was reported that some senior PF and Government officials went on Sunday evening, harassed and ordered newsroom staff to drop certain stories from the news bulletin. This is an unfortunate incident that is not consistent with the Government’s policy of hands off the media.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: On behalf of the Government, I wish to thank the ZNBC Board for publically bringing to light the reported incident. This action confirms the fact that the ZNBC and the media fraternity as a whole are free from Government control.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that the ZNBC Act No. 20 of 2002, as amended by Act No.16 of 2010, empowers the corporation to provide valid and balanced programmes for all sections of the population and serve public interest. Further, the Act clearly stipulates the relationship between the shareholders, in this case, the Government, the ZNBC Board and the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services. Therefore, there should be no misunderstanding on the mandate of the ZNBC and how it relates to the Government and the public in its operations.

Mr Speaker, may I take this opportunity to advise that there are enough avenues for people to pursue when they are dissatisfied or aggrieved by media reports. Going to the newsroom to instruct editors to drop a story is not one of them. Instead, in line with standard media practice, news sources deserve the right to reply so that their views are put in the context in which they would like them to be.

Mr Speaker, I would further like to guide that apart from the in-house complaints procedure for the ZNBC, members of the public can also channel their complaints to the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) whose complaints procedure was launched recently, a copy of which I now lay on the Table of the House.

Dr Katema laid the paper on the Table.

Dr Katema: However, Mr Speaker, I wish to remind the media to maintain the highest level of professionalism in their work. The media’s ethical and professional obligations such as accuracy, objectivity and balance are not negotiable. As such, the media is advised to desist from single sourcing stories by ensuring that all sides are heard on a particular issue, especially now that the political actors are competing for the leadership of the country. 

Like I have said before, the media’s loyalty should be to the truth and the people of Zambia, and not to individuals and their personal agendas.

Mr Speaker, let me end by reaffirming the Government’s commitment to upholding the freedom of the media as a fundamental prerequisite to sustainable social and economic development.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement issued by the Minister of Information and Broadcasting.

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the statement by the hon. Minister sounds alright. It is not different from what the Patriotic Front Government has been saying about the media since it came into office. However, it is not the first time we are experiencing such an incident. Like many Zambians, I expected to hear what measures or sanctions will be taken against the hon. Minister who stormed into the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and the civil servant who issued a warning to the board. What is the hon. Minister going to do about the Permanent Secretary (PS) who misled the nation by giving the impression that the Chairman of the Board of the ZNBC was wrong in what he did?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, in my ministerial statement, I referred to the fact that the board acted accordingly. It defended itself by using the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, the question is: What is to be done about the hon. Minister and the Permanent Secretary?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the board can complain to …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let him respond.

Dr Katema: The Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act stipulates that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board is a body corporate that has authority to sue and be sued. Using the authority it has been given in the Act, it can complain to any person or authority and redress shall be given. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Bwalya (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for the timely statement.

Sir, yesterday, it was reported in the print media that the Chairperson of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board, Dr Mulwila, was threatened with a suit in his personal capacity if he does not retract his statement. Can the hon. Minister inform this House and the nation what protection can be afforded to the board chairperson.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, short of repeating myself, the Zambia Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is a body corporate which can sue and be sued. If sued, it has the right to defend itself and the courts of law shall adjudicate on the matter. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The question is: What protection is going to be afforded to Dr Mulwila?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act stipulates that the board can sue and be sued. If it is sued, it is protected by the Act and the procedures therein. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mushanga: Ama lawyers, mulechitenshi uko?
    
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s statement is at variance with the statements that are being issued by his principle adviser in the ministry. Hon. Minister, the Permanent Secretary (PS) in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, who is your subordinate, has been threatening the board and journalists at the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and other media institutions. You are aware of the statements that are being issued by your subordinate in the ministry. What action are you going to take pertaining to the statements that are being attributed to him which are at variance with the good statement that you have just issued on the Floor of this House?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I have advised the boards of media institutions to acquaint themselves with their Acts and use them to defend themselves. What I have given is the Government’s position. If anybody advises them or does anything contrary to the Government’s position, they can ignore the advice. They are protected by the law. The ZNBC is an independent body which is protected ...

Ms Sayifwanda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: No, it is not tenable, hon. Member.

Dr Katema: … by the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act. Anybody who acts contrary to the guidelines provided by the Government, regardless of the organisation he/she is from or position she/he holds, is doing that of their own volition. Therefore, the boards and managements of media institutions should not entertain them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Minister, let me just provide some guidance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I want to conclude this subject as quickly as possible, but this question is a repetition. I think that the best you can do is answer it. The question is: What is to be done about the Permanent Secretary (PS)? That is the question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, administratively, the hon. Minister will counsel the concerned officer through the Secretary to the Cabinet. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is evading …

Ms Sayifwanda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, this House will recall that this is the first point of order I am raising.

Mr Speaker, the Front Bench on your right is mandated by the Zambian people to give proper guidance and information relating to issues under discussion. What is going on now is not good. The responses the hon. Minister is providing to questions raised by the Backbenchers are raising concern in me who has been a Cabinet Minister before. 

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to come here unprepared, and to fail to give a clear position on the behaviour of his Permanent Secretary (PS) who is his subordinate? The PS has issued a statement, threatening the hon. Minister and the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board Chairperson, but the hon. Minister is saying something to the contrary.

Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House in a bid to protect the PS?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

My ruling is very simple. If you were following the events of the last few minutes, you would have noticed that I have been intervening and seeking to exact from the hon. Minister the very issues you are raising. Therefore, as far as I am concerned, the proceedings of the House are orderly.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, first of all, let me remind the hon. Minister that his party promised to enact the Freedom of Information Bill. However, to date, it has not done that. Secondly, it promised not to interfere with the operations of the media. For the first time, an hon. Minister stormed into the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Newsroom to interfere with the airing of programmes. This is an embarrassment you should acknowledge. The man who stormed into the newsroom is a known Patriotic Front (PF) member whose presence in the Government is on a PF ticket. What are you going to do about this embarrassment collectively as the PF, more so that he is aspiring for presidency? Are you going to allow that behaviour to continue? Hon. Minister, I want a very serious answer.

Mr Mwanza: He is not serious himself.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, the question is vague.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Katema: Actually, the hon. Member of Parliament was debating. Therefore, it is very difficult for me to grasp what he is asking about. Suffice it to say that the PF Government came into office on the premise of a free media. In my ministerial statement, I have highlighted what tangible measures have been put in place to show that we are for a free, independent and professional media. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

The question …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member would like to find out whether the hon. Member will still be allowed to stand for presidency in view of your policy position and so on and so forth. That was the question. 

Mr Livune: That is right!

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, those are party politics. There are procedures to be followed when choosing a candidate for presidency. The procedure is that the candidate will be picked at the party congress. 

I thank you, Sir,

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let me provide some guidance because I would like us to move quickly. There is a lot of business ahead of us, and I am not given to intervene constantly. I want to avoid these interventions. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister, as far as possible, to respond to questions as they come. I think that we shall make progress that way. If the questions are not answered, they will keep begging for answers. Therefore, they will be repeated and we shall procrastinate. Speaking for myself, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for the statement. 

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, the Permanent Secretary (PS) is supposed to be an ex-officio on the board. In your right frame of mind, …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Dr Kaingu: … what do you think …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Mwandi, I do not think that is a fair way of putting a question. Just take a seat. 

Dr Kaingu resumed his seat.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I do not think that is a fair way of putting a question to a fellow hon. Member. We are all in our right frame of mind. Therefore, it is fair to proceed on the basis that every hon. Member here is in the right frame of mind.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I totally agree with you. The PS was supposed to be an ex-officio on the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board. What do you think will be the working relationship between the PS and the Chairperson of the Board? 

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, it is very difficult for me to determine the relationship that will develop between the Chairperson of the Board and the Permanent Secretary (PS) who is an ex-officio. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I am cognisant of the fact that under the Laws of Zambia, trespassers are prosecuted. Hon. Minister, trespassing means finding yourself in a place without permission. Since the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is an institution under your ministry, will you then hand over the hon. Minister for possible prosecution for trespassing? 

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I said that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is an autonomous institution that has got the right to sue or be sued. Therefore, the board can take appropriate action if it is convinced that this individual trespassed on the ZNBC premises. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, from where I stand, I can see that collective responsibility has been sacrificed and many more things might be scarified on the Altar of Baal. 

The hon. Minister said that the Government is keen to ensure that media houses are given freedom of information. Why, then, did his Government withdraw the wide-coverage licences that were awarded to QFM and Radio Phoenix? Is that what you call commitment or are you mocking us? 

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that the Independent Broadcasting Authority (IBA) Board and Management, which is the official body authorised to give or revoke licences, has been put in place. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I concur with you that the statement was good. If I had a way, I would have given my dear cousin a bottle of whiskey to jack him up. 

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member!

Laughter 

Mr Mbewe: Sir, …

Mr Speaker: Can you withdraw that statement. 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the phrase, “bottle of whiskey” and replace it with, “bottle of coca cola”.  

Sir, the incident at the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) was very unfortunate. Hon. Minister, can you gather courage, stand tall and apologise to the members of staff of this institution and the country at large. Can you apologise on behalf of the people who misbehaved at the ZBNC. 

Mr Speaker: I will not request the hon. Minister to do that for a simple reason. If you followed his statement, he said that he regrets the incident on behalf of the Government. That is enough. 

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, meddling in the portfolio of another Cabinet Minister …

Dr Kaingu: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … is against the norm of collective responsibility and good governance. Clearly, this is the situation we are faced with. 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has emphatically stated that the Patriotic Front Government aspires to de-politicise the media. However, the action taken by his colleague is political and goes beyond the law. Can the hon. Minister tell us what political action he will take in order to solve the problem caused by his colleague who meddled in his portfolio.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, when it comes to Cabinet Ministers interfering with other Ministers’ portfolio functions, the supervisor, who is the appointing authority, handles this. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, it is the duty of every hon. Minister to protect those serving in his/her ministry against harassment from his/her colleagues. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting whether he is afraid of his colleague who stormed into the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Newsroom.  

Mr Speaker, the question that the hon. Minister should answer is: What action will he take to protect the workers at the ZNBC and other public institutions under him from the harassment that we are now witnessing from the Patriotic Front (PF) Ministers who, unfortunately, are exhibiting bad behaviour? Can the hon. Minister tell us how he will protect the public workers against his colleagues.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I have already mentioned that the Government, collectively, does not condone this action. I also mentioned that we have a supervisor, who is the appointing authority, who can handle the cases of the two colleagues on a par. I further mentioned that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) is a body corporate that has the right to take legal or other action against anybody who interferes with its operations.                                                               

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, I would like a straight answer from the hon. Minister. Was there an offence committed or not? If so, what action will the Government take on behalf of the board?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, before you respond, let me say that I will take the last round of questions as follows: The Member to take the Floor is the hon. Member for Solwezi West, then the hon. Member for Katombola, and the hon. Member for Luena will be last. 

Hon. Minister, you may respond. 

Dr Katema conferred with Dr Simbyakula. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister. 

Dr Katema continued conferring. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister. 

Laughter 

Mr Livune: Ba Minister!

Dr Katema: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter 

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am being asked whether an offence was committed or not. I am not a lawyer. So, I would not know whether  …
 
Interruptions

Dr Katema: … a criminal offence was committed. However, I want to state that if there was an offence, the board will complain to the appropriate authority who will take appropriate action. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Mwanza (Solwezi West): Mr Speaker, hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting, please, be candid and brave enough to tell the people of Zambia whether you have actually counselled the Permanent Secretary (PS) because he is a lunatic, to say the least.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Solwezi West, can you withdraw that term.

Mr Mwanza: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the term.

Laughter

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, Permanent Secretaries (PS) have supervising officers. In this case, it is the Secretary to the Cabinet. The Secretary to the Cabinet can institute disciplinary proceedings after studying cases as they unfold.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just apologised for what transpired at the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC). Could he tell us the stories which his colleagues wanted removed from the ZNBC News bulletin were?

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am not privy to the stories which were …

Laughter

Dr Katema: … supposed to be removed or added to the ZNBC News because those details are not in the complaint letter that the board chairperson wrote.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, I note that the Permanent Secretary (PS) tried to overrule the Chairperson of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) Board on which he sits as an ex-officio. In that capacity, he is subordinate to the board chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Correct.

Ms Imenda: Sir, I note that the PS had just been transferred from another ministry. Therefore, I would like to find out whether you, as Minister of the ministry, were consulted on the transfer of the PS. I also want to know whether, after he came to your ministry, you discussed with him what necessitated his transfer to your ministry. Further, I want to know if you are comfortable with him working under you.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member of Parliament knew the procedures of the Government. The appointing authority does not consult anybody when transferring Permanent Secretaries (PS). He uses his discretion. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: There is another limb to the question about your being comfortable with the Permanent Secretary (PS).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, that question is neither here nor there, …

Laughter

Dr Katema: … because every Minister has a Permanent Secretary (PS) working under him/her. He/she does  not choose who to work with. So, that question is neither here nor there.

I thank you, Sir.

______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

KANYEMBO RURAL HEALTH CENTRE IN NCHELENGE

247. Mr Mpundu (Nchelenge) asked the Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health why pregnant women at Kanyembo Rural Health Centre in Nchelenge were made to provide materials required for use in labour wards.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development, Mother and Child Health (Mrs Mphande): Mr Speaker, the Government’s policy is that all reproductive health services in all public health facilities be provided to the Zambian population free of charge. Ideally, no woman at any public health facility should be asked to provide materials to use during childbirth.

However, in instances where there are challenges with the supply of materials to use in the labour wards, communities are encouraged to bring their own materials as part of the birth preparedness plan.

I thank you, Sir.

FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME BENEFICIARIES

248. Mr Kunda (Muchinga) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Livestock:

(a)    what measures the Government had taken to ensure that only vulnerable people benefitted from the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP);

(b)    how many tonnes of D-Compound and Urea fertilisers were expected to be distributed under the FISP in Muchinga Parliamentary Constituency during the 2014/2015 farming season; and

(c)    what measures the Government had taken to encourage crop diversification in the constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Monde): Mr Speaker, the Government is concerned about the reports of farmers who are not the intended beneficiaries accessing subsidised agricultural inputs under the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). To ensure that the rightful small-scale farmers benefit from the programme, the Government has been continuously strengthening the structure of the FISP by taking steps such as decentralising farmer recruitment at local level and reconstituting the Camp and District Agricultural Committee (CDAC) across the country. The Government is also reorganising the co-operatives in order to protect the interest of the small-scale farmers who are supported under the FISP.

Sir, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock operates within the provincial and district boundaries and not constituency boundaries. Serenje District, in which Muchinga Constituency falls, was allocated 2,015.20 metric tonnes of D-Compound fertiliser and 1,945.20 metric tonnes of urea fertiliser during the 2014/2015 agricultural season. Actually, 2,015.20 metric tonnes of D-Compound and 889.80 metric tonnes of urea fertiliser have already been delivered to Serenje District.

Mr Speaker, the Government has taken measures to encourage crop diversification in the country by including sorghum, groundnuts and rice in the FISP. In addition, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock will continue providing extension services to support the production of a diverse range of crops and livestock. The Government is also in the process of implementing the e-Voucher System to enhance the diversification of agriculture. A total of K254 million has been allocated for this in the proposed 2015 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister should be aware that Muchinga Constituency depends on agriculture. Not all the farmers have received the fertiliser like the hon. Minister has stated. I would like to find out when the farmers will be paid for the maize that they sold to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). They need the money to pay for fertiliser from the FISP.

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, the Government is currently paying farmers for the maize that was procured. Unfortunately, I do not have the payment schedule with me. Suffice it to say that the Government is paying farmers at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Not long ago, the hon. Minister indicated that this will be done at the end of November and beginning of December. 

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the Eastern Province is renowned for groundnut production. In his earlier response, the hon. Minister said that groundnut production would be diversified. May I find out if the Government will provide a market for groundnuts.

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, groundnuts, like any other crop, are very marketable in Zambia. As the Government, we shall definitely provide a market for them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has explained the role of the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and how farmers are supposed to graduate from it. How can the intended beneficiaries graduate from the FISP and become self-sustaining when the Government does not pay for their crop?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, this is a programme where the Government is subsidising inputs in order to create capacity for farmers. Over time, there will be a review on whether or not our farmers have been supported enough for them to graduate. As it is, there is no schedule for graduating them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simbao (Senga Hill): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister realise the anxiety that the farmers in Muchinga are going through now that the rains have started, and particularly that there are heavy rains in that part of the country?

Mr Monde: Mr Speaker, as the Government, we are concerned about production because we know that if we mismanage this programme, there will be no bumper harvest. In my response, I also said that farming is done in phases. We provide seed, D-Compound and Urea fertiliser. We are on schedule with the distribution of D-Compound and have already delivered 2,015.20 metric tonnes to Muchinga, Serenje in particular. We have also delivered about 889.80 metric tonnes of Urea fertiliser and shall ensure that we reach the target of 1,945.2 metric tonnes. We are very concerned about the distribution of inputs.

I thank you, Sir. 

___________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 18/06 – (Judiciary – Small Claims Court – K2,933,071).

(Consideration resumed)

Vote 18/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – K288,545,698).

The Minister of Justice (Mr E. C. Lungu): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to share with this august House the Government’s policy direction on the Ministry of Justice. It is my sincere hope that this will contribute to the realisation of the aspirations of the Zambian people of improved dispensation of justice, and increase adherence to good governance principles in the country.

Sir, before I get into the details of the policy statement, allow me to pay tribute to His Excellency the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, the gallant son of Africa, for his visionary leadership. His efforts and achievements within the three years he was at the helm of the Zambian Government are there for all to see. The late President was committed to the promotion of good governance and rule of law in the country. Under his leadership, the Patriotic Front-led Government embarked on various governance reforms such as the Constitution Review Process, the Legal and Justice Sector Reforms, and the accelerated decentralisation of the National Prosecution Authority (NPA), and the Legal Aid Board (LAB) to provinces. Other efforts in strengthening good governance included the integration of the National Programme of Action for the African Peer Review Mechanism into national development frameworks. In honour of the late President and the virtues he stood for, the Patriotic Front-led Government will continue with the implementation of policies and programmes that were initiated under his leadership. May his soul rest in eternal peace.

Mr Chairperson, I now wish to revert to the policy statement. The vision of the ministry is to efficiently provide legal services, facilitate dispensation of justice and promote good governance mechanisms. For 2015, the ministry has allocated K18.5 million for personal emoluments, K0.87 million for other personal emoluments, K169.13 million …

Interruptions

Mr Chairperson: Order, on my left!

Mr E. C. Lungu: … for non-personal emoluments programmes and K100 million for compensation and awards, giving a total of K288.5 million.

Sir, during the 2015-2017 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, the key areas of policy intervention for my ministry will include the following:

Constitutional Reforms

I wish to reaffirm the commitment of the Patriotic Front Government to giving the people of Zambia a Constitution that will stand the test of time.

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu: This has been demonstrated by the inclusive stakeholder consultative process and release of the Draft Constitution to the public on the eve of our Golden Jubilee Independence Celebrations on 23rd October, 2014. What a befitting present it was for the people of Zambia as we celebrated fifty years of Independence.

Mr Chairperson, allow me, on behalf of the Government, to express our gratitude to the people of Zambia not only for their positive comments and contributions to the Constitution-making process, but also for the patience they exhibited by allowing the Government to conclude all the processes required to facilitate the release of the Draft Constitution to take the process forward.

Sir, as the Government has indicated on several occasions in the past, the next steps to be undertaken in the Constitution-making process are provided for under Article 79 of the Constitution of Zambia. In taking the process forward, the Government will, in due course, make available a detailed roadmap of the remaining steps to be undertaken in the Constitution-making process so as to ensure that the Constitution is enacted in the shortest possible time.

Mr Chairperson, the Government has continued to value stakeholder engagement and consensus building in the Constitution-making process. In view of this, K29 million has been provided for in the 2015 Budget. Therefore, I would like to encourage all stakeholders to thoroughly utilise the provisions of the Draft Constitution and make their observations in order to give the country a Constitution that will allow it to thrive as a nation, and that will stand the test of time. 

Mr Chairperson, the legal and justice sector is currently faced with various challenges such as lengthy pre-trial detention periods of suspects, case backlogs in courts, high congestion in prisons, long distances to courts, especially in rural areas, high fees for accessing services of legal practitioners and perceptions of corruption in the Judiciary. Other challenges relate to delays in the disposal of cases in courts and insufficient legal representation for the indigent.

Sir, it is against this background that His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata constituted the Legal and Justice Sector Reform Commission in early 2014. The mandate of the commission is to undertake a comprehensive public inquiry into the state of the legal and justice sector in Zambia, and recommend appropriate reforms that would ensure a more efficient, affordable, accessible, accountable, fair and responsive legal and justice system. 

Mr Chairperson, by the end of 2014, the commission would have held public sittings in Lusaka, Eastern, Western and Southern provinces. In the 2015 Budget, a total of K6.7 million has been proposed to facilitate the commission’s work in the remaining six provinces. 

Mr Chairperson, good governance remains the cornerstone for prudent management of public affairs and ensuring that development outcomes benefit the people of Zambia. My ministry acknowledges that without functioning institutions of governance based on the rule of law, and that promote social stability and legal certainty, there cannot be investment and sustainable development. Furthermore, the deficiency in governance encourages high rates of corruption with further devastating consequences on the confidence of economic actors.

Sir, notwithstanding the benefits of good governance, it is often a gradual process that cannot be attained overnight, as it involves changing long-standing practices, entrenched interests, cultural habits, social and, sometimes, religious norms. 

Mr Chairperson, I wish to take this opportunity to underscore the Government’s commitment to the Africa Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) process and its vision of enhancing Africa’s ownership of its development agenda. Having been peer reviewed in 2013 and, having launched the country’s review report in March, 2014, Zambia is in the process of implementing the National Programme of Action whilst my ministry has made budgetary provisions in 2015 for this process. 

Sir, the Government, through Cabinet Office, directed all ministries, provinces and other spending agencies to budget for the implementation of the APRM National Programme of Action. The National Governing Council, whose composition is drawn from both State and non-State actors, is spearheading the monitoring of the implementation of the National Programme of Action. Accordingly, my ministry has allocated K3.6 million for the coordination of various activities under the APRM Initiative. 

Mr Chairperson, in 2013, the Government established the NPA in order to facilitate the efficient and effective discharge of prosecutorial duties as espoused in Article 56 of the Zambian Constitution. The ministry is currently in the process of operationalising the strategic plan for the NPA.

Sir, the activities in the 2015-2017 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) will include scaling up the decentralisation of the operations of the NPA to provinces and districts. An additional budget of about K10 million has been provided in 2015 to facilitate this process, bringing the total allocation to the operations of the NPA to K50.6 million.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is concerned about the capacity of the LAB to effectively provide services to the poor Zambians who cannot afford the high legal fees charged by private legal practitioners. The ministry will, therefore, continue to build the capacity of the LAB by progressively improving the working conditions so as to attract and retain lawyers and other technical staff. Furthermore, the ministry will facilitate the decentralisation of the LAB to Choma and Chinsali. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry hopes to expand its capacity to defend cases against the Government by progressively recruiting and retaining lawyers. This would result in the reduction of compensation and claims against the Government. Currently, the ministry has a critical shortage of lawyers which often results in a lack of representation in some cases. Thus, judgment ends up being made in default. This is the major contributing factor to the huge costs the Government has been incurring on compensations and awards which averaged K200 million from 2011 to 2013.

Sir, my ministry will also scale up the decentralisation of its services to provinces and districts in order to improve access to justice in the country. The LAB, NPA, Civil Litigation, Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy departments will progressively increase their presence in provinces and districts.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to emphasise that the ministry will continue with interventions that will contribute to the deepening of the rule of law, promotion of human rights and civil liberties and sustenance of good governance in the country. I, therefore, appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to fully support the proposed 2015 budget for my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, in supporting the Vote for the Ministry of Justice, I would like to make a few comments based on some of the pronouncements made by Hon. E. C. Lungu, who is my brother and friend, and who is also hon. Member of Parliament for … 

Interruptions 

Mr Hamududu: What is it?

Hon. Opposition Members: Chawama.

Mr Hamududu: … Chawama.

Laughter 

Mr Hamududu: Come 20th January, he will still be hon. Member for Chawama.

Laughter 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Lungu interjected.

Mr Hamududu: We will continue to chat as friends because he will still be here. I know you will not lose your seat, but you will seat on this side. We can even swap seats.

Laughter 

Mr Hamududu: Sir, the key issue I want to raise is that of the Constitution. 

Political leaders, not just those from the Patriotic Front (PF), have played around with the issue of the Constitution and have underestimated its value. I will make a comparison with a neighboring country which was a Cinderella country in the sub-region in the 1960s. Many people have talked about the strides Botswana has made, but they overlook the fact that it is where it is today because of good governance held together by a good constitution. The PF have missed an opportunity to give the country a new Constitution for three years. We could have had a new Constitution by now. 

The money that will be spent on the Presidential By-election could have been used to build hostels at our tertiary institutions such as the University of Zambia (UNZA), Copperbelt University (CBU) and Mulungushi University. Nonetheless, this situation is to our advantage because university students are joining us in our campaign to vote the PF out of office. Failure to deliver a people-driven Constitution is the worst mistake our colleagues in the PF have ever made, and they are going to pay a big price for this. No one is going to fight them on this issue but, after the forthcoming by-election, they will be on this side of the House. There is enough room for them here and we will move to the other side.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: We shall deliver a people-driven Constitution before the 2016 Elections.

Mr Mukanga interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Our priority will be the enactment of a new Constitution. Good governance translates into food on the table for the people. The PF has underestimated the value of a good constitution. A good constitution simply means good governance. It is through good governance that a government is able to deliver to people’s expectations and to avoid wastage of public resources. Therefore, the Government has to put its priorities right. Our colleagues have underestimated the key to prosperity. Therefore, they have no right to contest the forthcoming by-election.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: As Zambians, they have the right to contest the elections even if they get a no vote. However, they have no moral right to participate in this election. Not enacting a new Constitution is one of the issues that will move them this side of the House. We shall honour some senior citizens like my uncle, here, by giving them good positions.

Mr Mwanza: Which one?

Mr Hamududu: Hon. Chikwanda. He will be running around to improve the image of the country. Good people like Hon. Dr Kasonde will also have a role to play, as senior citizens, of giving us guidance.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: However, the younger hon. Members of the PF like the hon. Minister of Justice, who misled the President and himself, will move to this side of the House. 

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, let me come to the real issues on the Constitution-making process. Our friends have been saying that they will give the people a new Constitution. No one is asking for the Constitution from them. People give themselves a constitution. The Government merely facilitates by virtue of having been given the powers of the Exchequer by the Zambian people. It is as simple as that. If the Zambian people could raise the money on their own, they would come up with a Constitution for themselves. 

Sir, literally speaking, hiding the Draft Constitution from the people is tantamount to theft. The Zambian people funded the constitution of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution, but our colleagues have been hiding the Constitution. They have said that they are releasing the document, and yet that is a stolen document.

The Chairperson: Order! 

That language is unparliamentary.

Mr Hamududu: What is the best word I can use? 

The Chairperson: You want me to tell you?

Mr Hamududu: Yes, Sir.

The Chairperson: No, I want you to find the right word. Do not argue with me. You decide.

Laughter 

Mr Hamududu: Alright, Sir. Let me continue.

Mr Chairperson, to take away a people’s document and pretend to have released it is dishonesty. Even when the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution was appointed by the late President, may his soul rest in peace, we were against that. Nonetheless, I visited the committee at Mulungushi International Conference Centre with the incoming president, Mr Hakainde Hichilema.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: The committee gave us a briefing. 

Interruptions 

Mr Hamududu: He is an opposition leader for these people here (pointing at hon. UPND Members). Therefore, I can mention his name. He is a public figure and the president of the political party on whose ticket some of us came to this House. The committee told us that when it finished its work, it would hand over the document to the people of Zambia and the Government simultaneously. 

However, the people on your right decided to hide the people’s document and to pretend to have released it here. That is not right. They are playing around with a very important document. The Zambian people have spoken. From the Mvunga, Mwanakatwe and Mung’omba Constitution review commissions, people’s submissions have been the same. I am happy to note that successive governments thought that they were clever. However, what has come out of the so many Constitution review commissions is that we now know what the Zambian people want. People want a fifty plus-one majority vote for a party to form government. If you get 43 per cent, you have been rejected by the majority. You cannot rule when you have been rejected. To get a majority vote, a party has to moderate the policies which are not wanted by the people.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform my colleagues that this mess of having a presidential by-election that they have created could have been avoided if they had replaced the bad Constitution. First of all, we are wasting money by having this by-election. However, like I said earlier, this is good for us. I am personally going to Mulungushi University, UNZA and CBU to walk with the students in the streets. I will tell them that they have been denied hostels because of the money spent on the by-election. This could have been avoided if our colleagues had delivered a people-driven Constitution. 

If the President had a running mate, the Vice-President could have moved into State House in an event that the President died, at no cost at all. Why should ten students share a room when money is being wasted on something that could have been avoided? Some students are forced to rent rooms in compounds and end up being attacked, especially the female students. What makes our colleagues think that they will get a vote in the by-election? That will never happen. They have made a mistake, and I am telling them this as a friend.

Ms Kabanshi interjected.

Mr Hamududu: You will see what will happen. 

Mr Chairperson, I will only speak about the Constitution. The Zambian people want a running mate for the Presidency so that we avoid these unnecessary Presidential By-elections. A running mate has security of tenure. Therefore, he/she can tell the President when he/she is not doing something right. If there was a running mate, His Honour the Vice-President would have guided the President on the issues of the Constitution. However, since all our colleagues were afraid of being fired, they could not tell the late President the truth. They could not guide His Excellency the President in the delivery of a new Constitution because their positions were under threat. 

The President cannot fire the Vice-President if he/she was a running mate in the election. This is the case in Malawi. Therefore, the Vice-President is able to speak the truth. This is what the Zambian people want. We want the separation of powers. People are saying that they want hon. Ministers to be appointed from outside Parliament. This applies to those of us in the Opposition. The desire for anyone here to be a Minister is not more important than the aspirations of the Zambian people. Anyone who wants to be a Minister should not contest parliamentary elections. This will make them eligible to be a Minister. Ministers will be ratified by Parliament when we come into power.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, we should have moved a Motion to fire the hon. Minister who was ‘waffling’ earlier. I am trying to justify the appointment of hon. Ministers among hon. Members of Parliament, instead of this House ratifying those that have been appointed from out there. The Executive and Legislature should complement each other. Where there are inadequacies in the Presidency, we should help. That is our job. 

Mr Chairperson, hon. Ministers in the PF Government will be the last ones to fly flags on the ministerial vehicles because, after we win the 2016 General Elections, Ministers will be appointed from outside Parliament. If anyone here thinks that they qualify to be a Minister in our Government, they should not run for the next parliamentary elections. We want hon. Ministers with the technical know-how and not people who will just come here and ‘waffle’.

Laughter 

Mr Hamududu: The Zambian people will reject people who want to eat with both hands by being both Ministers and Members of Parliament. Ministers will be appointed from outside Parliament as ex-officio Members of this House. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a way in which we can do away with by-elections. I have lived in a country where there is no wastage of money. In Namibia, there are no by-elections. Our friends have a proportional representation political system. According to this system, parliamentary seats are shared according to votes attained in the election. People vote for a party for its policies. If you vote for Hamududu alone, what can he do as a Member of Parliament? 

Mr Chairperson, why should a Member of Parliament fight for development? Development must be shared equitably. It is a principle. I do not have to speak my lungs out to get a bridge constructed in my constituency. By law, it is the job of the Government to distribute development equally.  

Mr Chairperson, we are supposed to distribute wealth equitably. That is what we are going to do when we assume office. I want to tell some of those who will be Ministers in our government that I will be taking to task hon. Members of my party if I will not be a Minister. We will not want a situation whereby Members of Parliament beg for development. 

Mr Chairperson, the Government knows the map of the country and where each district is located. It knows which areas need boreholes or roads most. Therefore, not distributing development equitably is an injustice and crime. So, why should there be favouritism in this process? Such favouritism is tantamount to economic apartheid and those practising that must be arrested. Why should many schools or boreholes be taken to one area when other places are also in dire need of the same facilities? This usually happens when there is a by-election in a given area. Are the people in this area the only ones who pay tax? 

Mr Chairperson, I want to tell those on your right that both the people who vote and those who do not vote pay taxes and deserve an equal share of the national cake. That is why we want to enhance the Bill of Rights so that economic and social rights are enshrined in the Constitution, thereby raising the bar for governance. At the moment, everyone wants to be President. I was shocked to hear that even people whose parties have no representation in Parliament want to file in their nominations to contest the forthcoming Presidential By-elections. What is the point in doing that?

Laughter 

Mr Hamududu: How are they going to form Government? Are they going to use the eight nominated Members? Suppose the candidate whose party has no representation in Parliament wins the Presidential By-election, will he/she form Government with eight nominated Members? This is because we have lowered the demands for governance. Once we enhance the Bill of Rights, we shall raise the bar which will demand good governance and people will think twice before they decide to run for office. It has become cheap in this country to run for presidency. Eighteen or fifteen people want to run for presidency. Go to other countries, you will find only two or three candidates because, when they see the demands of the Constitution, they ‘run’ away. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: In this country, everyone wants to be President because of the Constitution. People just wake up, go and recruit supporters from the compounds at a fee to escort them to the High Court to file in their nominations simply because there are donors who give money to presidential candidates through the Zambia Centre for Inter-party Dialogue (ZCID). This has become a money spinner, and we must stop that.

Mr Mwanza: Yes!

Mr Hamududu: My brothers and sisters, we are one. You made a very big mistake. You do not deserve to seat there after 20th January, 2015. This is one of the biggest mistakes you have ever made. People say, Hamududu does not politick. To the contrary, I practise professional politics. I will go on radio and articulate issues clearly. I will be one of the key campaigners so that we do the right thing. If this Government does not deliver a new Constitution, remove them from power in 2016.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Which Government?

Mr Hamududu: This one here (Pointing at the MMD and UPND benches); the alliance.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: By the way, Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamududu: … this includes you, too.

Laughter

The Chairperson: I think you are tempting me, Hon. Hamududu.

Laughter

The Chairperson: You see, that is not right.

Mr Hamududu: I withdraw the sentence, Sir.

The Chairperson: Let us be serious.

You have your point of order, Hon. Kampyongo.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to rise on this very important point of order on my brother, Hon. Hamududu, who rarely politicks in this manner.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hamududu: Chasiika chindi.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, is he in order to refer to an alliance in this House when we know that there is only the Patriotic Front Government on one side, and that there are only twenty-seven members from the United Party for National Development (UPND). Since when did we have an alliance in this House? 

I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: I will not make a ruling on that point of order. We will just listen to him and deduce whether or not what he saying is correct.

May the hon. Member on the Floor continue.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, I really mean whatever I have said from the bottom of my heart. There are opportunities even on this side of the House. After the weekend, if you are not happy, join the alliance.

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: Chilingalinga!

Mr Hamududu: This alliance is about doing the right thing. Our hands are open. For me, I want us to unify the country from all sides. The Cabinet will have equal representation from all the ten provinces. If twenty Members will compose Cabinet, two will come from each of the ten provinces.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hamududu: As for me, I will not be a Minister. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: If I will be a Minister, I will be a deputy. There will be only two Members here. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Two, two.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: As I conclude, I would like to say that in that …

The Chairperson: I think, Hon. Hamududu, …

Mr Hamududu: … Constitution, …

The Chairperson: Order, Hon. Hamududu! 

I am on the Floor. When the Chair is speaking, you stop debating. Let us zero in on the issue under discussion.

Hon. Member, you may continue.

Mr Hamududu: In conclusion, Sir, one important thing to say is that if it means us taking 10 per cent of the Budget and giving ourselves …

Mr Mwenya: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise a point of order. Is he in order not to mention that if Mr Hakainde Hichilema (HH) fails to win the elections next year, he will resign from his position as president of the party …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwenya: … so that the young Turks can take over?

Mr Livune: Question!

The Chairperson: As you debate, you can …

Laughter

The Chairperson: … take that point of order into consideration.

Mr Hamududu: I have no problem with that. 

Sir, ours will be a collective government. If you think the young Turks are good for the country, they will be part of the team in Mr Hakainde Hichilema’s (HH) government. We are set.

Sir, I would like to conclude by saying that bringing a new Constitution is a must. Whoever is in Government or any government that does not deliver a people-driven Constitution containing the basic minimum does not deserve to be in Government. I am saying this because it is now our turn to govern the country because you have failed. The people will substitute you with another party if you do not bring a new Constitution. However, we are going to deliver when we come into power. We give you a caveat or safety valve that if we do not deliver, then, do not vote for us in 2016. I can tell you that we shall win before 2016.

I want to thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Chairperson, …

Hon. Members: Alliance, alliance!

Dr Musokotwane: … for the opportunity to speak on the Vote pertaining to the Ministry of Justice. 

Mr Chairperson, I am going to debate from an angle I heard from the hon. Minister on reforms in the Judiciary. I think this is a very important topic.

Mr Chairperson, most of the time, when we hear about reforming the Judiciary, people refer to the Judiciary at the high level. They talk about High court, Supreme Court, Constitutional reform, which is very important. I should congratulate Hon. Hamududu on a speech well delivered.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I have no problem with that because I think it is important. However, the reforms that I would like to talk about this afternoon are those at the local level. This is where the majority of our people in the country are. 

Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister reforms the Judiciary, he should not forget the local court system for the following reasons. I shall use the situation in Liuwa as a checklist on what is obtaining in the justice system at a local level today. The size of Liuwa Constituency is about 150 x 80 km. There are only three local courts in the entire constituency. These are at Libonda, Sishekanu and Litapuya. Out of the three, only two are operational. The third one was completed a few years ago but, to date, there is no staff at that court. The court that I am talking about is the one that is nearest to Angola. So, for people to access the services of the Subordinate Court, they have to walk close to 120 km. You know the Western Province is sandy. So, driving a distance of 120 km will take you about seven hours because of the sand. It takes four days to walk that distance. 

You can imagine a situation where somebody has been offended or grieved, and he/she to walk for four days to access the services of the Subordinate Court and another four days to get back home. Of course, it is not just the walking that is strenuous, but the people need food on the way. Also, for the period that they are at the Subordinate Court at the Boma, they need food. 

Mr Chairperson, already, you can see that this kind of system discourages many people from accessing justice, especially women. I was in the constituency and was told about women who were beaten very badly, men who were hacked with pangas and people who stole something and that is very hard for them to go and seek justice.

Of course, the effort involved does not end at the long walks. For the four days that they walk to seek justice and the four days they walk back home, they need food on the way. They also need food for the period that they are at the subordinate court at the Boma. You can see that this kind of system really discourages many people, especially women, from accessing justice. When you are in the constituency, you get to hear about a woman who was beaten very badly, a man who was hacked with a panga or who somebody stole something, but it is very hard for people to seek justice. They give up because of the difficulties involved in accessing justice. As a result, criminally-oriented people have taken advantage of this situation. They know that even if they beat up someone or steal from people, the victim will not walk eight days to seek justice. 

Mr Chairperson, apart from this hurdle that I am talking about, the justice reforms that you are talking about must take cognisance of the reality on the ground. There are problems even in places that are near the local courts. Years ago, when we were children, if one was aggrieved and took somebody to court, the court messenger was responsible for the delivery of the writ of summons. However, this is no longer the case. I do not know about what is obtaining in other constituencies. 

Sir, when one goes to court to seek redress, he/she is asked to deliver the summons to the accused person. How can that be? What about in cases where somebody is dragging another person to court for alleged adultery, can you imagine the one who is aggrieved taking the summons to the accused person? A fight will ensue. This is what is happening today. 

Sir, we have also heard about cases where a messenger demands payment for the delivery of a summons. This is what is happening. In some instances, we have seen the community take the initiative to deliver summons. So, those who are unable to pay the messenger or the community vigilantes to deliver summons are unable to access the justice system. This is the reality on the ground. The reforms should look at this.

Mr Chairperson, there is also the problem of cases taking long to be disposed of at local level. People walk the whole day or two to the local court only to be told that the case has been adjourned and they should go back in a month’s time. Cases drag. Can this be referred to as a justice system?

Mr Chairperson, I see that the House is about to be suspended. So, as the hon. Minister looks at the reforms, he should not forget the basics.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1415 hours until 1430 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]
RULING BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES

RULING BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY HON. GARY NKOMBO, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MAZABUKA CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY REGARDING HON. MINISTERS WHO THREATENED TO BLOCK THE APPROVAL OF THE 2015 NATIONAL BUDGET BY THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

Hon. Members will recall that on Tuesday, 18th November, 2014, when the Committee of the Whole House was considering Head 07 – Office of the Auditor-General on the Order Paper and the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business, Hon. Yamfwa Mukanga, MP, was presenting his policy statement, Hon. G. Nkombo, Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central Parliamentary Constituency, raised a point of order in which he alleged that some hon. Cabinet Ministers, during an intra-party meeting, had threatened to block the approval of the 2015 National Budget by the House if the Patriotic Front (PF) did not adopt Hon. Edgar Lungu, MP, as its candidate for the Presidential Elections on 20th January, 2015. The relevant part of the point of order reads as follows:

“… Mr Chairperson, as hon. Members of Parliament, one of our functions is to approve the Budget …

“… Yesterday, a group of Patriotic Front (PF) hon. Members of Parliament, who included hon. Ministers, signed a document in which they threatened that if Hon. Edgar Lungu is not adopted by the PF to succeed our late President, they will block the 2015 National Budget.”

“I want to state that hon. Ministers of the Government, who are supposed to defend this Budget, aborting this process amounts to a breach of the Ministerial Code of Conduct … However, I wish to find out whether the hon. Ministers who include: Hon. Mwimba Malama, Hon. Davis Mwila, Hon. Stephen Kampyongo, Hon. Col. Panji Kaunda, Hon. Gerry Chanda, Hon. Freedom Sikazwe, Hon. Nathaniel Mubukwanu, Hon. Harry Kalaba, Hon. Jean Kapata, Hon. Prof. Nkandu Luo, and Hon. Dr Ngosa Simbyakula were in order to threaten to walk out of Parliament in order to derail the process of passing the Budget which is so important and constitutional. 

“Sir, I seek a ruling on this matter.”

Hon. Members, in my immediate remarks, I indicated that I needed to study the point of order before rendering my ruling. I have studied the point of order and now render the following ruling:

Hon. Members, in his point of order, Mr Nkombo, MP, stated that a group of hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF), including some hon. Cabinet Ministers, signed a document containing a statement that said that they would block the passage of the 2015 National Budget if Hon. Edgar Lungu, MP, was not adopted as the candidate of the PF in the Presidential Elections to be held on 20th January, 2015. Mr Nkombo, MP, therefore, sought a ruling on whether the hon. Members were in order to issue such a threat. Upon concluding his point of order, Hon. Nkombo, MP, proceeded to lay a copy of the statement purported to have been signed by the hon. Members on the Table of the House.

Hon. Members, I had recourse to the statement by the hon. Member, which I read and found that it did not contain the purported threat Mr G. Nkombo, MP, complained about. It, therefore, remains an allegation, and I will not dwell into it. This House deals with facts, and not allegations. In addition, hon. Members, the point of order raises concern over an issue that occurred outside the House during an intra-party meeting. As ruled on several times, matters that occur outside should not be brought into this House, but remain and be concluded outside the House. We, Presiding Officers, have guided that this House will not be drawn into wrangles that occur within the political circles outside the House. This is the position of the House because Presiding Officers are not in a position to discern facts on such matters, as they are not privy to their discussions outside the House. 

In conclusion, therefore, I urge all hon. Members to refrain, henceforth, from drawing the House into discussions taking place outside the House and which are mere speculations from the media. Hon. Members are further advised to draw a distinction between their dealings, as members of political parties outside the House, and their duties as representatives of the people in the House.

I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate on behalf of the people of Mitete on issues of justice. One of the issues the hon. Minister talked about is that of improved dispensation of justice. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government has had sixty-eight parliamentary petitions in the courts from the time it came into power, and yet this is the Government which is saying that it has brought about improved dispensation of justice. If my records are correct, there have been thirty-eight by-elections. However, three by-elections for Petauke, Malambo and Mulobezi have been pending for over a year. Is this the improved dispensation of justice under the PF? Why are the people of Petauke, Malambo and Mulobezi being denied representation in this House?

Mr Livune: Mm! 

In the courts that are rotten?

Mr Mutelo: Hon. Minister of Justice, why is that so? Is this what you call justice? Two or three days ago, people in Petauke were asking to have a representative in Parliament, and they are right. However, here you are saying that there is improved dispensation of justice. People out there will judge if the PF has improved the dispensation of justice.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about deepening the rule of law in this country when this Government has an Acting President whose presence in office is questionable. 

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this is a very important arm of the Government. Therefore, issues we debate here are Constitutional and must be based on facts.  The hon. Member on the Floor started by debating the issue of the petitions, when he knows very well that it is the candidates who disputed the election results who went to the courts to seek justice. He has gone further to question the issue of the Acting President whose presence in office is within the confines of the Constitution. 

Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to veer away from the policy statement from and start debating issues that he may not understand or substantiate sufficiently?

Mr Chairperson, I seek your serious ruling.    

The Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the point of order raises two issues. The first part is his statement on what I might summarise as justice delayed is justice …

Hon. Opposition Members: Denied!

The Chairperson: Order!

.. denied. Therefore, he is merely expressing the view point that it is taking long for the courts to make a judgments.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

He is merely expressing that opinion. As for the second part where he questions the legitimacy of the Acting Presidency, I think that he is out of order. 

You may continue, Hon. Mutelo.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I will not dwell much on that issue. However, the same people who are talking about these things are quarrelling amongst themselves and have taken this matter to court. 

Mr Miyanda: They are going to court.    

Mr Mutelo: We are learning from them day in and day out. 

As much as I appreciate the point of order by my beloved brother, I want to remind him that we learn from them. Did you not argue over this as the PF Government?

The Chairperson: Hon. Mutelo, I made a ruling and the point is that the arguments for or against are out there. I think that we should leave this debate out there and zero in on the issue of justice. 

Continue, hon. Member. 

Mr Mutelo: I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chairperson, what is justice when the freedom of movement of some people is restricted? Two days ago, Mr Hakainde Hichilema had to reschedule some of his programmes because he was denied permission to hold meetings in some places. Only after going to the hon. Minister of Justice did they realise that every citizen has the freedom of movement. Some of Mr Hichilema’s meetings were cancelled, and yet people had left their offices to go and listen to him. Is this justice? Do we need to beg for that which is ours? 

Mr Sikazwe: Yes.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I want to give the party in Government an opportunity to rate itself, after which the Zambians will judge whether it is providing good governance or not. Will there be good governance after 20th January, 2015? 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: We will leave it to the Zambian people. 

Hon. Minister, you mentioned good governance, in your statement, deepened rule of law, improved dispensation of justice and many other issues. Is the problem due to the shortage of lawyers like you stated? Is there good governance in Zambia at the moment? The answer could be a yes or no, but the Zambians will judge. 

Mr Chairperson, I come from a rural constituency. There has been talk of decentralising the Legal Aid Board (LAB) to district level. If this happened, I would be the happiest person because we do not know about the existence of such institutions in Mitete. The decentralisation of this board would make me very happy. Ignorance of the law is no defence at all. People who are wallowing in prisons are the poor. They go in probably because they are ignorant of certain laws. They are imprisoned probably because they are poor and cannot afford legal fees. So, they are denied justice. If this could be improved upon, I would be very happy. 

Mr Chairperson, what is justice when members of the Ruling Party go out to threaten people? Is that justice? You deny people the freedom of expression. I wish I could mention names. Bo Minister Inonge was denied an opportunity to make a statement. 

Laughter 

Mr Mutelo: When she made a request to air her views, she was denied the opportunity to do so. You are denying yourselves justice. I will not mention names because it is not allowed in this House. 

The Chairperson: Ah! 

You have already mentioned names. 

Laughter 

The Chairperson: Do not think that when we keep quiet, then, you are clever. Do not mention names, but simply debate. If you have exhausted your debate, please, indicate. Our keeping quiet is not approval of what you are saying. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Mutelo: I thank you, Sir, for the guidance. I will wind up my debate soon.

Mr Chairperson, to date, Zambia is still using a Constitution for a One-Party Participatory Democracy, and yet we are in a multiparty system. Some amendments to the Constitution have been made over a period of time, and yet this is a multiparty system which has necessitated the coming of the PF into power. Suffice it to say that they will soon pave way for the United Party for National Development (UPND). 

Mr Chairperson, we have been given another ‘promissory note’ in the name of a new Constitution by the PF Government. Initially, we were told that we would be given the Constitution within ninety days of the PF being in office. All we have been given is a Draft Constitution. However, the Zambians have their own time frame. Come 20th January, 2015, the tables will turn. 

Hon. Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, come 20th January, 2015, the UPND and HH will most likely come into power. My sincere plea is that the Zambians be given an opportunity to give themselves a people-driven Constitution. 

Sir, when terms such as, “animal-driven Constitution” were uttered, I thought it should have actually been, “animal farm”. I will, however, leave this phrase as it was put and.
, that is, “animal-driven Constitution”. 

Mr Chairperson, if only what the hon. Minister said in his policy statement could be implemented, then, we would say the Government means well. Unfortunately, in Zambia, we say one thing, but do the opposite. If we are to change, which should happen now, we should change for the better and not the worst.

With these very few words from Mitete, I would like to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kaingu (Mwandi): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this Vote. I would like to adopt the good debates of my colleagues, Hon. Mutelo, Hon. Hamududu and of my brother, Hon. Dr Musokotwane, as mine.

Sir, this country’s major problem is the Constitution because it does not address many issues. If our late President, Mr Michael Sata, was not as strong as he was to come and officially open this session of the National Assembly, I do not know, according to the Constitution, who could have done so.

Mr Chairperson, as we debate the Vote for the Ministry of Justice, some of our colleagues, as Hon. Mutelo said, are still waiting for justice to be dispensed. Worse still, the constituencies that they represent have not had any representation in this House for a long time. All that is because of our Constitution. I am reminded about Hon. Siliya, Hon. Sililo and Hon. Maxwell Mwale who have been waiting for a decision to be made by the court, and yet their constituencies are without representation and nobody cares. That is not all. A similar situation is prevailing in Chisamba and Mufumbwe where hon. Members of Parliament have technically lost their court cases and have since appealed against those judgments. However, their constituencies remain without representation. All that is because of our Constitution. As the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), – I will not join the blame game, we made an effort to amend the Constitution, and history will exculpate us. 

Sir, I would like to correct my nephew, Hon. Hamududu, who said that there is an alliance. I want you to know that as of this morning, the MMD 2, …

Mr Muntanga: MMD 2?

Dr Kaingu: … launched its campaign with its candidate His Excellency Rupiah Bwezani Banda as its presidential candidate.

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: He is vintage. So, there is no alliance. There may be a few of us who could have joined and supported the United Party for National Development (UPND), but the MMD has a candidate.

Mr Muntanga: MMD 2.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, the MMD, …

Mr Nkombo: MMD 1 or 2?

Dr Kaingu: There is no MMD 1 or 2. I said 2.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Where is MMD 1?

Dr Kaingu: It is just MMD. Only one nomination certificate is issued.

Ms Imenda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, we have delayed in passing this Appropriation Bill because of the funeral of the late President which we had recently. Is it in order for us to start discussing politics of people who have returned from the archives? Are we in order?

Laughter

The Chairperson: You see, the issue of an alliance was debated by an earlier debater and no point of order was raised. Now that an hon. Member is responding to that, a point of order is raised. The truth is that we should be zeroing in on the issue before us. When we digress and begin talking about alliances and other issues, we are not doing justice to our debate. I hope that what is good for one party should also be understood to be good for the other. So, I think that we should move away from that and discuss the Budget.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, thank you so much. I have so much respect for my sister. These days, I have trained myself to hit very hard and so, I do not want her to be a victim of my training.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Sir, I was just trying to put matters into perspective. There is no alliance because the MMD has a candidate. You can call us anything; archive or ‘Hakaingu’, that is up to you. 

Mr Chairperson, I was talking about the silence of our Constitution. Today, we are having problems with the Public Order Act. That is all because of the Constitution. We are blessed to have these two years before the 2016 Elections General Elections. This is an opportunity for us, Zambians, to vote for a person who will not be interested in the 2016 Elections, but to help us enact the Constitution.

Mr Livune: Question!

Dr Kaingu: Yes, you can say, “question.” What else can it be?

Dr Kaingu conferred with an hon. MMD Member.

Dr Kaingu: Sir, the agony of being a nominated member is that …

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: … when the person who nominated you dies, your nomination also dies.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! 

Please, let us come back to the topic at hand. I know that you are responding to somebody who made a running commentary, but that does not make your remark correct. Both remarks are incorrect. I get the impression that we are exhausted. The privilege I have is that when I make a decision, I go straight to what I think is correct. 

You can continue, hon. Member.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I warned them that I am a trained fellow now.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Sir, as we discuss the policy statement for the Ministry of Justice, I would like the hon. Minister to reflect on one issue that the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs has been discussing, and that is sentencing. Hon. Minister, what is happening is that certain matters are tried in the Subordinate Courts but, when it comes to sentencing, they are referred to the High Court, and yet the men and women who try these cases in the Subordinate Courts are as qualified as those who preside in the High Court. My appeal to you, hon. Minister is that, as we conduct the reforms, please, as a matter of urgency, let us look at this problem that has led to the congestion in our prisons. At the moment, most of the people in prisons are simply awaiting sentencing.

Sir, as I wind up my debate, allow me to say that the problem of the Draft Constitution that has been given to the people of Zambia, will be sorted out by the MMD when it comes into power after 20th January, 2015.

Prof. Luo laughed.

Dr Kaingu: You think it is laughable?

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr E C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, predominantly, people who have contributed to this debate have been dealing with the Constitution much more than anything else. Let me just assure the House that the Ministry of Justice has, so far, released the Draft Constitution for all Zambians to study. I hope the hon. Members of Parliament are finding time to read, at least, a page a day so that they familiarise themselves with what is being proposed. I realised that it is a topical subject and most of the contributions made by Hon. Hamududu could have found a better place in the submissions or comments to be given to the Permanent Secretary in my ministry who has been charged with the task of collecting views on various Articles in the Constitution.

The Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Minister, please, sit down. We are doing ourselves injustice in that we are doing what is not correct. I ignored the fact that we are actually conducting business when there is no quorum. I think I cannot take that anymore. Can we have the bells rung, and the people who are outside should come in.

Business was suspended from 1708 hours until 1710 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Chairperson: We now have a quorum. Can the hon. Minister continue.

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that, predominantly, the people who contributed to the discussion were focused on the Constitution. I need to assure this House that we are committed to ensuring that the Constitution-making process comes to an end in reasonable time. For that reason, my colleagues can do justice to the process by taking time to read the Draft Constitution so that they contribute meaningfully.

Mr Chairperson, the reforms, which are currently underway, are wide and embrace all legal issues under my ministry. At this point, I can say that my colleagues in this House should take time and raise some of the issues they have raised so that they are taken on board. The public hearings are taking place in all the provinces. I can only say that as soon as the commission finishes gathering issues relating to the reforms and recommendations are made, the Government will quickly implement them. 

Mr Chairperson, lastly, the question of petitions and by-elections that have been mentioned are all part of the Constitution-making process that we are talking about. If people do not feel that the current legal regime is satisfactory, they can change the Constitution which they are preparing for themselves now. So, all in all, I wish to thank the House for supporting the 2015 budget for the Ministry of Justice.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K3,215,100,849).

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to stand before this august House to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence for the period 1st January 2015 to 31st December, 2015.

Mr Chairperson, before I deliver my policy statement, allow me to congratulate the Minister of Finance, Hon. Alexander Bwalya Chikwanda, MP, on delivering a progressive and all embracing 2015 National Budget. 

Sir, in our quest to contribute to economic growth and the development of our nation, we have taken into account the Patriotic Front Manifesto, the presidential pronouncements and the mission statement of the ministry in the preparation of the ministry’s 2015 budget.

Mr Chairperson, our mission statement is:
 
“to preserve, protect and defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to maintain peace and security for all its citizens and residents.”

Sir, during the period under review, my ministry had an approved budget of K2,726,856,470 for the year ending 31st December, 2014. Out of which K2,173,391,773.34 had been received as of 31st October, 2014.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry achieved the following using the availed resources:

The ministry has continued with the programme of modernising the Defence Forces and Zambia National Service (ZNS). In this regard, my ministry continued with the procurement and upgrading of equipment and facilitated specialised training for personnel. To this effect, I wish to report to this august House that the Specialised Marine Unit of the Zambia Army has been established at Kaala Camp in Kawambwa, Luapula Province. Through such efforts, the ministry’s ability to maintain peace and stability for sustained national economic development will be enhanced.

Sir, the importance of the agriculture sector to sustained economic growth of our country cannot be over emphasised. In this regard, my ministry, through the ZNS, cultivated a total of 1,260 hectares and expanded livestock production in the 2013/2014 agricultural season. These efforts are all aimed at enhancing national food security.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the ZNS Land Development Branch (LDB), has continued opening up feeder roads in addition to undertaking road rehabilitation works in some rural areas, thereby making them more accessible.

Sir, I wish to report that 550 youths underwent training in various skills at the ZNS Chiwoko and Kitwe camps and graduated in June, 2014.

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to contribute to international peace and security, the ministry participated in sub regional and regional engagements such as joint permanent commissions and conferences on the Great Lakes Region. Further, my ministry participated in international peace-keeping efforts with the African Union (AU) and United Nations (UN).

Sir, allow me now to give an overview of my ministry’s 2015 budget. The Ministry of Defence budget estimates for the year beginning 1st January to 31st December, 2015, are K3,215,100,849, representing an increase of 18 per cent over the approved 2014 budget.

Mr Chairperson, out of these budget estimates, 82.3 per cent will go towards personal emoluments while the balance of 17.7 per cent will be spent on Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs) and capital projects.

Sir, having given an overview of the budget, may I now proceed to highlight the salient features.

My ministry has set aside K12,300,000 for on-going capital projects such as Phase II of the Northern Command Military Hospital in Ndola, water reticulation systems at L85 for the army, Zambia Air Force (ZAF) Twin Palm and ZAF Samora Machel Base.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has made a provision of K11,521,445 in the 2015 budget for the Youth Skills Training Programme. Out of this amount, …

The Chairperson: Order!

I think we have a problem with the quorum. I do not know what is happening. We do not seem to be serious, and yet we are discussing the Budget. There is no quorum in the House. When there are more than fifty-five Members, let me know. I am leaving the Chamber for five minutes.

The Chairperson left the Assembly Chamber.

Business was suspended from 1720 hours until 1725 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

The Chairperson: Once again, let me appeal to the Whips that we should be serious. My walking out was actually in protest. What we are doing is illegal. We are failing to observe our own rules. 

Mr E. C. Lungu: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that K3,630,361 is meant for infrastructure development at Zambia National Service (ZNS) Kasama Camp, the newly identified youth training centre for the northern region. The balance of K7,891,084 is meant for skills training, food rations, uniforms, training aids and other requisites.

The ZNS is expected to cultivate 1,420 hectares in the 2014/2015 farming season as compared to the 1,260 hectares in the 2013/2014 farming season. In this regard, the ministry has set aside K17,193,792 in the 2015 budget for crop and livestock production. The ministry has also set aside a further K4,289,596 for agriculture infrastructure development.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is in the process of sending a contingent on peace-keeping missions in the Central African Republic as our country’s contribution to the international peace effort. 

Sir, I would be failing in my duty if I did not commend our gallant men and women in uniform for their exemplary conduct during the Golden Jubilee Independence Celebrations and funeral of our late beloved President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, who passed away on 28th October, 2014. May his soul rest in eternal peace. I would, therefore, wish to urge the Defence Forces and ZNS personnel to remain non-partisan, steadfast and loyal to the Government.

In conclusion, my ministry shall continue to fulfil its mandate of defending the country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Further, the ministry will continue to contribute to the food security of the nation and the empowerment of unemployed youths through skills training. In this regard, I, therefore, call upon the hon. Members of this august House to fully and unanimously support my ministry’s budget estimates for 2015 as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I am thankful for the unanimous support.

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 20 – (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Local Government and Housing – K663,489,110), VOTE 29 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – K925,418,966) and VOTE 25 – (Local Government Service Commission – K 7,750,080). 

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chenda): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for according me the opportunity to present a policy statement in support of the 2015 budget estimates for my ministry under Vote 20 – Loans and Investments, Vote 25 – Local Government Service Commission and Vote 29 – the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. May I also take this opportunity to convey my heartfelt condolences to the First Family on the demise of our beloved President, His Excellency Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. May his soul rest in eternal peace. 

Mr Chairperson, in my presentation of the three Votes of the 2015 Budget, I have taken cognisance of the 1991 Act and other statutes relating to local government and the Revised Sixth National Development Plan 2013/2016.

Sir, the statutory functions of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing are contained in Gazette No. 6061 dated 23rd March, 2012. I shall elaborate on each one of them. My ministry will continue with the implementation of the various on-going infrastructure development projects and embark on new projects in 2015. We believe that this is not only good for the sustainable socio-economic development of this country, but will also be in honour of the legacy of the late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata. 

Mr Chairperson, please, allow me to present my policy statement which outlines the various sectors in the ministry as follows:

The notable change in the 2015 Budget is the introduction of the Local Government Equalisation Fund. The fund is pegged at not less than 5 per cent of the income tax and will be distributed to councils on a predetermined formula that will take into account factors such as population, poverty and other considerations. The fund is not only buoyant, but also stable and equitable, and will enable councils to undertake high levels of service delivery in changing socio-economic situations.

Mr Chairperson, although the current revenue bases for councils could be described as weak, the Government is determined to reverse the trend. There is also an urgent need to address the negative perception the public has of the quality of services provided by councils.

The ministry will do what it takes to make significant changes, including the enforcement of the Ministry of Finance’s preconditions before the release of grants, which is, “A number of measures to improve the status quo will be enforced.” These will include the amendment of laws and enforcement of financial controls.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, with support from co-operating partners, was able to roll out best practice training programmes in local authorities which undoubtedly have enhanced service delivery. In addition, my ministry conducted countrywide training programmes for accounting officers in the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) to enforce accountability in the use and management of public resources. The orientation courses for councillors have been undertaken to enable them to appreciate their civic duties and provide quality leadership.

Sir, in line with the requirements of the Ministry of Finance guidelines, my ministry will continue with other capacity-development programmes aimed at improving the operations of councils to make them prudent in the manner they utilise public resources. To enhance training of middle management staff in local authorities, the Chalimbana Local Government Training Institute will continue to offer training in various disciplines.

As for the future, the institute is actively discussing with Mulungushi University with the view to reintroducing the course programme of the Institute of Local Government Administrators. The majority of the current crop of Town Clerks and Council Secretaries qualified under this institute, as it was practical to the needs of local government.

Mr Chairperson, in 2015, the Government, through my ministry, will continue facilitating the construction and rehabilitation of infrastructure. In order to improve housing infrastructure development, my ministry is currently constructing 180 housing units in the seventeen newly- created districts at a cost of K73,203,701.12. The 2014 budget for housing construction is K21,248,000, and the progress of works is at 35 per cent. The delay is due to inadequate funding. An allocation of K26,472,715 has been provided in 2015 towards the completion of these housing units.

The National Housing Authority (NHA) has been allocated a sum of K2,824,710 in the 2015 budget for the construction of low cost housing units in selected districts. In order to further reduce the housing deficit, the Government is encouraging the private sector to come on board. This will be done under the auspices of the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Programme.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that the Government will finalise the review of the 1996 National Housing Policy so that it is more responsive to the modern demands in housing development. Over and above the 2014 allocation of K300,000, a further K500,550 has been included in the 2015 budget in order to complete the review of the policy.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia being a member of international organisations such as the African Union (AU), United Nations (UN) Habitat and Shelter Afrique will continue to play its part so as to benefit from these various fora, especially in the provision of affordable housing. In this regard, a budgetary provision of K268,900 has been made for membership subscriptions. I am also pleased to report to this august House that at the 2014 Annual General Meeting of Shelter Afrique held in Abidjan, Ivory Coast, Zambia was elected on the board of directors and it will represent eight countries in the region. The Government will continue to implement the Participatory Slam Upgrading Programme in order to improve the living conditions in unplanned settlements.

Mr Chairperson, water supply and sanitation remains one of the development challenges of our time. The Government, through my ministry, is resolved in providing increased access to clean and safe drinking water and better sanitation services to both urban and rural areas. In 2014, the ministry was allocated K416,247,456 for the implementation of the following activities:

(a)    construction of 2,000 water points equipped with hand pumps;

(b)    construction of six water schemes;

(c)    rehabilitation of 1,086 boreholes; and

(d)    construction and rehabilitation of water supply and sanitation infrastructure in peri-urban areas.

Mr Chairperson, under the rural water supply and sanitation sub-sector, the ministry has undertaken the following:

(a)    construction of 1,600 boreholes equipped with hand pumps;

(b)    construction of six water schemes in rural communities; and

(c)    rehabilitation of 921 boreholes in rural communities.

As regards the peri-urban areas, the ministry has continued to improve water and sanitation infrastructure in various districts across the country such as Chinsali, Nalolo, Isoka, Pemba, Kaputa, Mufumbwe and Serenje, to mention but a few. Some of the major projects that the Government is implementing with support from co-operating partners include the following:

(a)    Lusaka Water Supply, Sanitation and Drainage Project, with a grant from the American Government amounting to US$355 million through the Millennium Challenge Corporation;

(b)    Improvement of Water Supply and Sanitation Project in Ndola, Masaiti and Luanshya through a mixed credit grant amounting to US$101 million from the Danish Government;

(c)    Zambia Water Supply and Sanitation Project in Chingola, Mufulira and Chililabombwe, with support from the European Investment Bank, amounting to 75 million Euros;

(d)    Water Supply and Sanitation Project in Kawambwa and Mansa, with support from the Arab Bank for Development in Africa (BADEA), amounting to US$10.3 million;

(e)    Water Supply and Sanitation Project in Nyimba, Katete and Chadiza, with support from the German Development Bank (KfW) amounting to 11 million Euros;

(f)    Nkana Water Supply and Sanitation Project with the support from the African Development Bank (ADB), amounting to US$63 million; and

(g)    Livingstone Water Supply Improvement Project through funding from the Government, amounting to K65 million.

Mr Chairperson, in 2015, the Government will increase access to clean and safe drinking water from the current 64 to 67 per cent. This will be done by constructing 2,500 new water points and rehabilitating 2,000 dysfunctional water points. As regards rural sanitation, the ministry is targeting to increase access to sanitation facilities in rural communities from 43 to 45 per cent. This will be achieved through community-based approaches such as the Community-Led Total Sanitation (CLTS) and construction of institutional latrines in rural health centres and schools. 

The campaign for increased access to rural sanitation is currently being implemented in forty-seven districts spread out in all the 287 chiefdoms. In the past three years, 1.6 million users have gained access to adequate sanitation as a result of this campaign. The Government is rolling out CLTS with support from the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) and Department for International Development (DFID). 

In relation to peri-urban areas, the ministry plans to increase access to clean and safe drinking water from 83 to 85 per cent in 2015. This will be achieved through rehabilitation and construction of water supply infrastructure in the various districts that are being serviced by eleven water utility companies.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue constructing and rehabilitating modern markets and bus stations in both urban and rural areas. This will create a conducive trading environment and improve business as part of a deliberate Government policy of reducing poverty.

Mr Chairperson, road infrastructure development is the backbone of sustainable economic development. The Government will continue upgrading both urban and rural roads networks to improve accessibility and mobility.

My ministry is currently facilitating the rehabilitation of 447 km of urban roads in twenty-two districts across the country at a cost of K2.6 billion. This will be funded through the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA). The rehabilitation works are ongoing and will continue in 2015. 

I wish to further report that some of the urban roads that have been completed include 9 km in Mongu, 18 km in Kasama, 14 km in Mpulungu, 40 km in Kitwe and 9 km in Chipata. Works are progressing well in other districts. My ministry has also planned for an additional twenty-six urban roads projects in selected districts, covering a total distance of 360 km valued at K2.4 billion.

Mr Chairperson, in order to improve rural accessibility and mobility, the Government, through my ministry, is currently facilitating the rehabilitation of 101 feeder roads with a total length of 2,402 km at a total cost of K385 million. So far, over 50 per cent progress has been achieved. I further wish to report that a total of twenty-two additional feeder road projects, covering 417 km and valued at K114 million have been planned for implementation in 2015.

Mr Chairperson, in 2015, my ministry, through the local authorities, will mainly focus on rural road network to unlock the existing agricultural production potential and facilitate the movement of goods and services to enhance socio-economic activities.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is mandated to promote and facilitate planned and orderly urban development. In order to discharge this critical role in national development, my ministry has initiated the development of a National Urban Development Policy which provides guidance on meeting urban development challenges.

The Government has also placed emphasis on the preparation of not only integrated development plans, but also settlement plans in order to enhance orderly development of the cities and towns. The Integrated Development Plan (IDP) seeks to develop and promote appropriate policies ad tools for land management, infrastructure, municipal finance and urban environment as provided for under the Town and Planning Act.

Over the years, the Government has been facing a challenge of inadequate trained professional planners. To address this challenge, my ministry, in collaboration with the University of Zambia (UNZA), has established a two-year post-graduate university degree in spatial planning. In this regard, the ministry sponsors ten students per year to undergo this course. This will contribute to increasing the number of trained professional planners at all levels in the Government. 

My ministry has embarked on a process to review, repeal and harmonise the Town and Country Planning Act, Cap 283 of 1962 and the Housing (Statutory and Improvement Areas) Act, cap 194 of 1974 to bring them in line with current planning and developmental challenges. 

The Urban and Regional Planning Bill, 2014, is a product of this process and is intended to replace the current laws which are outdated, complex, detailed and not in line with the current planning issues in Zambia. The objects of the new Bill are:

(i)    to promote and encourage development in the entire country;
(ii)    to decentralise the planning systems to councils
(iii)    to cater for areas that previously had not benefited from planned development, such as customary land, by bringing them into mainstream planning.
(iv)    to improve the living conditions of the general citizenry, especially the urban poor through access to land, security of tenure and provision of municipal services;
(v)    to simplify administrative procedures and planning rules;
(vi)    to encourage public participation in planning ; and 
(vii)    to plan for sustainable, orderly and affordable development.

I am happy to inform this august House that the Draft Bill is ready and will be laid on the Floor of this House once Cabinet gives a go ahead and hopefully in this very session of the National Assembly.

Mr Chairperson, the human factor is one of the important ingredients in service delivery. Following the enactment of the Local Government Act No. 6 of 2010, a unified and transferable Local Government Service was reintroduced which has resulted, inter alia, into the following benefits:

(i)    enhanced meritocracy in human resource management;
(ii)    ensured equitable distribution of qualified and experienced personnel;
(iii)    incorporated fair play; and 
(iv)    improved service delivery.

Mr Chairperson, overhauling the Human Resource (HR) Management has not been easy partly because of the absence of clearly defined and institutionalised policies, guidelines and procedures, owing to the complexity and diversity of local government tasks. There are obvious skills gaps in various councils such as those relating to leading and managing change, commercial, financial programme and project management skills, digital skills and ability to drive continuous improvement.

The Local Authorities Superannuation Fund (LASF) is a pension scheme whose mandate is to receive pension contributions from its members, invest surplus funds and pay retirement benefits. Its members are drawn from local authorities, the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), NHA, Eastern and Lusaka Water and Sewerage companies.

Over the years, LASF has faced many challenges which have resulted in the fund being insolvent. Therefore, it has been unable to make lump sum payments on retirement, let alone yearly annuities. The actuaries have pegged this insolvency at K504 million for the year ending 31st December, 2002. Once this is extrapolated to 31st December, 2014, the deficit will be close to K1 billion.

Mr Chairperson, the problems affecting LASF are external. These are:

(i)    the effects of the 1991 amendment of the LASF Act, which mandated all members who had served twenty-two years and above to retire regardless of their retirement age, are still being felt as the resultant aspects have not been fully addressed;

(ii)    the operationalisation of the National Pension Act has resulted in making LASF a closed pension scheme. As no new members have joined the fund since 1st February, 2000,. LASF membership has dwindled from 16,000 in 2000 to 4,661 in 2014;

(iii)    the delayed payment of retirement benefits has placed a further strain on the fund by way of claims for interest and legal costs;

(iv)    the total unlimited contributions by councils to LASF amounted to K94,116,910 as at 31st October, 2014; and

(v)    the harmonisation of salaries has negatively impacted on the liquidity of the fund since the final basic salary is a critical factor in the calculation  of benefits. The claim to be paid the 280 retirees following the harmonisation will be K52,219,515.71 as opposed to K16,410,207.24 before harmonisation, resulting in an additional claim of K35,809,308.47.

Mr Chairperson, in order to address these challenges, the Government has embarked on Pension Reforms of the Public Sector Schemes. In the meantime, my ministry continues to engage the Ministries of Finance, and Labour and Social Security to find lasting solutions.

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to inform this august House that, with effect from July, 2013, the Government finally adopted the Revised Decentralisation Policy. In 2015, the devolution of functions to councils will proceed in a phased manner as follows:

(i)    Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education – under early childhood education, there is primary education and adult literacy;

(ii)    Ministry of Local Government and Housing – here, there is physical planning, rating and infrastructure development;

(iii)    Ministry of Health/Community Development, Mother and Child Health – here, there is primary health care;

(iv)    Office of the Vice-President – under the Office of the Vice-President, there is disaster and risk reduction management and resettlement;

(v)    Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock – here, there is agriculture extension services;

(vi)    Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – here, there is business development services monitoring of standards and quality assurance consumer protection and welfare;

(vii)    Ministry of Tourism and Art – here, there is tourism development; and

(viii)    Ministry of Health – here, there is the National Aids Council localised response to HIV/AIDS.

In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, I wish to implore the House that this budget brings opportunities for improved local services that impact on each one of us literally from the cradle to the grave. I, therefore, appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to support the 2015 Budget Estimates for my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for letting me add the voice of Ikeleng’i to this debate.

Mr Chairperson, local government is an important part of the Government. If anything, it is second to the Central Government. Going by the terms of reference and the purpose for the creation of local government, it is supposed to be looked after jealously. The wind of development is supposed to come through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. 

Sir, before Zambia’s Independence, the white man had proper structures. There were urban and rural councils. This was deliberate because urban councils had a bigger share and, if left out, rural councils would suffer. However, after Independence, the structures were abolished. What we see today is suffering in rural areas. Though councils are introduced, they are non-functional in my view. Councils are only functional in the cities because resources come from different sources. In Lukulu, Chama, Ikeleng’i and many other remote areas, even the money for rehabilitation that we are hearing about is just a dream.

 I listened to the hon. Minister’s statement. It is so nice. It is like a man who has seen a beautiful woman and wants to approach her. He uses flowery language so that he can attract her. However, once he marries her, he becomes a totally different person. This is exactly what is happening. I am from a rural part of the country and all that he was talking about is a dream. 

Mr Chairperson, if we closed the council in Ikeleng’i today, nobody would miss it. However, if we closed the clinic, people would die. We do not even know what people who work in the council do. They just wait for the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). When we request for an increase in the CDF, it is because it is the window for development. However, you are hesitant to increase it. This is the only money that we see. 

The role of the council in a decentralised system is to bring power to the people. Councillors, who include hon. Members of Parliament, are supposed to have powers to make decisions. We should be able to decide where to put a bridge or when to grade a road. If we cannot have our own revenues, the Central Government is supposed to help out. However, this is not the case currently. Ever since the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, even the little powers that we had over the CDF have been taken back to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. You cannot tamper with or tell anybody what to do. When you just advise, you end up in prison like Muchima for abuse of authority of office. Meanwhile, council officials are the major culprits, but they are being protected. Every time, they will tell you that we have instructions from the hon. Minister or that the Director has said this or that. In the Meantime, the Director is ‘stealing’ and misapplying the money. The CDF is going into their pockets instead of the people. 

Mr Chairperson, we need a proactive local government system. Send officers to England or America to see the meaning of decentralisation. We are just preaching decentralisation, but do not even mean it. Fifty years of Independence and we are still going backwards. We cannot wait to see change. There should be change. There should be development. Today, I want to support new ideas in young men and not old people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Unlike one of my brothers who wants to be pushing an old car. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: If you push it, it will not operate properly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Do not waste your energy on a finished tyre. 

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Councils should be visionary. They should think in a normal way. We used to have typewriters, but now we have computers. The world has changed. Let us change even in our thinking. Let us be modern. When you say rural infrastructure, I do not know which road you have ever graded in Ikeleng’i in the last three years. Which bridge have you ever put up? I have never seen any except those that have been put up using the CDF from which I have been isolated. I have no say because the powers are with the Council Secretary and officers. 

Mr Chairperson, they talk about employment creation. All the people that have been employed in Ikeleng’i are from other councils. We have never employed anybody from Ikeleng’i. They are all relatives of yours and those who helped you to come into power. Which creation of employment is there for my people in Ikeleng’i? We do not even know whether there is a Government. We just hear about it. This is why you are trying to get Mr Rupiah Banda (RB) back into power. He thinks he is a hero because you are failing. However, he will not get support from me, Muchima.  Anyway he did his part, but let the young ones take over. We are here. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: We, young men, are here. We need new blood in the system. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Whatever is happening is good for the country. The CDF is a very important component of development, but we need to manage it prudently. We need to increase it because it is important. It brings about real development. Give powers to hon. Members of Parliament. They must have special powers which, if abused, must lead to arrest. In most councils, the levels of understanding among councillors are too low. Therefore, they used as rubber stamps. They just agree with whatever goes on without understanding it. All they want is to get an allowance. They cannot argue. So, let the Members of Parliament manage the CDF. You have withdrawn the powers from the hon. Members of Parliament. Meanwhile, you want to give them heavy responsibilities. If an hon. Member of Parliament is not able to attend a council meeting, it should not take place. Let the Member of Parliament be involved because he understands what goes on there. Let him go and interpret the developmental programmes to the people. However, that is not the case. The people listen to your officers; the technocrats in your offices who have agendas and keep saying they are working under instructions. This is very sad. They do not understand the role of the Member of Parliament. The Member of Parliament has to call them for meetings all the time.  

Mr Chairperson, Division IV officers in rural councils are suffering. They are not paid because there is no revenue. This is of our own making. Let us pay them. Let us find a way of paying them. Councils in rural areas are not like the Lusaka City Council which can get money from land rates. In Ikeleng’i, there are no houses to get rates from. We do not even know why the council is in existence. 

Mr Chairperson, in the North-Western, Luapula and Western provinces, we do not need dams. We walk through water. Rain starts in September. At the moment, mushrooms are already growing. However, what we need is clean water. You should treat the water. Put up tanks and treat it. That is all. 

We have the Local Government Commission. That is a good idea. However, let the commissioners go to the councils, at least, every six months to see what is happening there.  Record keeping in the councils is poor. There are no proper records for the grants you give them or how they are utilised. Nobody knows how that money is spent. Personally, I am disgusted about this situation. I am an accountant, and I have tried to look at their books, but I cannot understand what goes on there, and yet you keep sending them grants. However, when it comes to the CDF, that is where you “put your torch”. Maybe, you have got an interest there. 

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, the CDF attracts your attention. I do not know for what reason. You do not query the use of the grants you send to the councils. We are fortunate to have a former Town Clerk as hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing who is also an accountant by profession. He should change the thinking of the councils. He should empower the hon. Members of Parliament to help out the councils. The majority of the hon. Members of Parliament are degree and diploma holders. They are quite experienced, but you belittle them and trust councillors who have a humble education and do not understand issues. Give us some powers so that we develop the rural areas. I cannot bear a child and kill him/her. I am interested in looking after him/her so that he can vote for me. However, you have usurped the powers of the Member of Parliament. Where will we get the money to develop our areas? Let us increase the amount of CDF. It should even be K5 million per annum. We can do more with the CDF than grant, which we have to beg for and is not yielding any results. All these projects you have itemised are not enough. If I went to the rural areas with you, you would be ashamed. If I went with you to Luapula where you say that you have built roads, you would still be ashamed. It is not every area that has good roads. My friend, the former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing goes to her constituency by boat and not a vehicle, and yet you are telling us that there is a lot of development there. When the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) was in power, the backbenchers used to speak on behalf of the Government. That is how they earned themselves ministerial positions. However, the PF Backbenchers tend to speak like Cabinet Ministers. You will never move to the Front Bench if you keep doing that.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: You should utilise your position at the Back Bench so that the people in the Cabinet can fear that uzaulula. You should tell them the truth. Talk to us so that we wake them up. They are now comfortable. They only implement projects in their areas. I know that because I own businesses in Kabwe and most places where the hon. Members from the Ruling Party come from. So, I know what is happening. Tizaona. We shall see if you will come back to this House after 2016.

Laughter

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the award of contracts for the CDF projects. You should not be involved in that process. Leave us to do that because we want to empower the local people by giving them contracts. They cannot write the project proposals you insist on. Project proposals are for people who understand English. They are for economists. In the rural areas, when we want to put up a bridge, we calculate how much we shall spend on it. Meanwhile, you are busy writing letters to us every day. What are they for? The money you are supposed to give us for projects is not yours. You will leave it when you leave office and we shall find it.

Mr Chairperson, councils are told to prepare budgets. However, you do not even look at those budgets. You just waste money on paying allowances to staff who go to Livingstone to prepare the budgets.  When you come back, you sit on the budgets. If you followed the budgets that are prepared by the councils, things would be different. You always make them write budgets when you have already decided what you are going to use the money for. Do not operate in isolation from the Central Government. Work with the think tank; the hon. Minister of Finance. He has studied economics. He understands politics better than all of you. He has been here longer than all of you, and he is just watching you. Support him. Talk to him and lobby properly. The performance of councils should improve. We need graders for councils. That money from the Central Government should reach Mwinilunga and Mwami. Mwani, mali ashikenga ku Mwinilunga.

Mr Chairperson, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the hon. Minister’s budget proposal, but I have some comments to make.

Mr Chairperson, there is a lot that must be done even before we have the reforms in the legal system.  Let me start by saying that before the decentralisation is implemented, there is a need for this Government to bite the bullet. We have a very expensive district administration unit. Why should we have District Commissioners (DCs) on one hand with a complementary department, and a secretariat of elected people, the councillors, on the other hand? Why can we not be forthright in the legal reform to ensure that we have just one district administration? That money that will be saved from reducing the size of the district administration can go to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Without appearing to be disrespectful to my colleagues who have no constituencies, let me say that they do not understand the significance of the CDF. I was also in that position once. I was a nominated hon. Member once, and I never appreciated the importance of the CDF until I had a constituency. This expensive two-tier administrative system is inefficient. I am aware that in some instances, the Council Secretary and the Chairperson are at loggerheads with the DCs because the people’s representatives are focused on one thing, and the DC and his team have focused on another. Also, this syndrome of giving allowances is really bad. I would like to suggest that we have one district administration. When that is done, then, we will be able to hold people accountable. I am aware of a situation where a District Development Coordinating Committee (DDCC) disapproved project proposals from the Area Development Committee (ADC) and the CDF Committee for no apparent reason. As a result, the needs of the community were not met. I hope that the hon. Minister and his Government can take note of this. There is no malice here. This point is based on real experience on how wasteful we are, and yet the hon. Minister of Finance tells us year in and year out how small our economy is. For us to have surges in income, we must grow the economy, but we are so wasteful.

Mr Chairperson, the other point I want to raise is from practical experience. Councils are shareholders in the utility companies, but it appears that the councils and utility companies operate almost independently of each other. Their relationship is like that of a father and daughter-in-law. For us in the rural areas, as the councils plan for the development of the districts, there is usually no representation from water and sewerage companies, but people are made to pay service charges. What are they for?  There is no combined planning with the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO), for instance. Surely, if you are opening a new area for development, you must be aware that you will need roads, water, sewerage systems and housing. 

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that the Patriotic Front Government must bite the bullet and seriously look at savings from the amalgamation of the two systems of administration at district level. 

Mr Chairperson, my next point is on integrated development plans. We can see before our eyes how much development is going on in our various districts and, in many instances, with very little planning. We are, therefore, creating a time bomb of unhealthy urban development. For instance, utility companies can see the areas that the councils have earmarked for housing, but make no attempt to plan for sewerage facilities or water reticulation. 

Mr Chairperson, how can we have whole districts having some semblance of reticulated safe water, but no sanitation? For example, a house can have a borehole, a septic tank and soakaway on one plot, disregarding the guidance from the Public Health Act. If they went by the recommended 150 m distance between soakaway and borehole, it would cover three plots. So, they have no choice, but to sink a borehole in the same area. This is unacceptable. 

Mr Chairperson, if you drive south of Lusaka towards Kafue, you will see a lot of housing units being developed, but there are no sewerage facilities. Now, we have an opportunity to have an integrated plan between Chibombo and Mumbwa along Landless Corner Road. It will be fantastic in the years to come. Generations that will come after us will commend us for having planned for their wellbeing. The same applies to the area between Lusaka and Mumbwa which, once planned properly, can yield wonders. 

Mr Chairperson, still on water reticulation, why is it that, individually, we are able to source borehole drilling companies that will drill 70 m at K10,000? However, when quotations are brought by our councils, the minimum is K28,000 for one borehole. The councils claim that they must engage companies that are registered with the National Council for Construction (NCC).

Dr Kaingu: Thieves. 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: The question is who is denying our people the service they need? The one who spends K10,000 on a borehole and uses the CDF to drill a minimum of seven boreholes or the councils that insist on allowing companies that they have given tenders to drill at a cost of K28,000 to K30,000? Who is denying the people services? Is it the secretariat in the name of the council or the CDF committees? I think that the answer is very obvious. Can we seek guidance? We have water engineers in our councils who can inspect whether the casings are adequate or not for the boreholes not to collapse in a short period. If we do this, these services and the little money that we have can go a long way in serving our people. 

Mr Chairperson, this is something urgent and does not require legal reform. The hon. Minister can do it even tomorrow. He can look at those guidelines so that the CDF can serve as many people as possible. Although he has mentioned the issue of boreholes before, they are not adequate. The suggestion is that we utilise the funds that we have to the maximum. 

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I want to comment on the Local Government Service Commission. As debated by the hon. Minister, the intentions are wonderful. In terms of planning, however, we have seen groups of young men and women being sent to councils when we have not even asked for them. Secondly, these young men and women are untrained and raw. Thirdly, where do they come from? They come from the line of rail. Does this mean that there are no Grade 12 school leavers in our districts? 

Dr Kalila: Chibombo.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: They are plenty. Why has this commission abused the trust that has been bestowed on it? I urge the hon. Minister …

Dr Kalila: They are sending relatives.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: … to put a cap. This commission should not be a conduit for favouritism and nepotism. It is there to serve the whole country. We all have young relatives who do not have jobs, but we cannot use institutions that are meant for everybody to favour ourselves. 

Mr Chairperson, my last comment is on the issue of the Local Authority Superannuation Fund (LASF). As the hon. Minister stated, retiring people after twenty-years of service has created never ending problems. With hindsight, we are all wise but, I imagine that at the time, it was meant to weed out those that were perceived to have a United National Independence Party (UNIP) mentality. Notwithstanding this, many years later, we are still suffering under this not very well-thought-out civic decision. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a lot that needs to be done in terms of supporting councils whose revenue base is very low. There is a lot that can be done. We can also assist the council staff by having a strong monitoring team. The audit committees must do their work impartially so that the councils can work properly and without favouritism. 

My last point …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: … is on community-led total sanitation. We are seeing some successes in this area. When the House was on recess, I went out with one of my chiefs whose messages were on agriculture, housing and the provision of toilets. I think that the meetings were successful. However, it has impacted on the fact that the senior village headmen were wondering why the Government was favouring chiefs only when the donkey work was being done by the headmen. I want to suggest to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing that one way of empowering this group of people is by training them to form co-operatives. Let the District Co-operative Officers train the headmen, as a unit, together with their subjects. That way, they will not depend on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP), but on a functioning co-operative. This way, they will not feel that they are being discriminated against.

Sir, with these very few words, which I hope the hon. Minister will take into account in the immediate future, I support this budget line.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to say that I support the Vote. In contributing to this debate, I would like to state the following:

A lot has been said about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). So, I will touch on the guidelines. The Government has said a lot about this. We like claiming that we live by the rule of law when, in fact, we sideline the law. Why do I say so? It is because if the Government was serious about addressing the inefficiencies in the execution of the CDF, by now, it would have come up with a new set of guidelines. The current guidelines have a number of weaknesses, leading to the ineffective implementation of the CDF. The period of procurement takes such a long time that one can forget about it.

Sir, when we point out certain issues to the Government, it is not politicking. We are simply telling the truth. We live in the constituencies and see how ineffective the current guidelines are. The longer it takes for the guidelines to be changed, the less effective they become. If the Government wants this fund to be successful, it should not delay in changing the guidelines. Why can it not adopt guidelines that will assist us to achieve our goals? When you delay, it is like you want the CDF to go to waste. Mind you, if there is money whose benefits are seen directly, it is the CDF.

If you went to Kalabo, the first project you would see is the CDF funded one, be it at a school or clinic. So, let us come up with rules so that those who abuse the CDF are dealt with. We want the CDF to be seen. I hope that by 20th January, 2015, those who will be in office will make sure that there are new rules in place.

Hon. UPNDF Member: It is you who will be in office. Say us.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, for two years now, the CDF has not been increased. In 2014, it was K1,400 and in 2015, it will still be the same amount. You are punishing the people in the rural areas where there are no non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and there is very little funding from the Government. Government projects have stalled. So, the little money which should service the people is the CDF, and yet it is not considered important. So, I am urging the Government to support the rural areas by coming up with rules on the CDF. It is not normal for somebody who wears size 6 shoes to continue wearing the same size even when they are old. 

Sir, the country has changed, its population has increased. So, the rules should be up to date with events. If people desired to have those long processes of procurement a long time ago, we want quick implementation now. You cannot just keep talking without implementing. Those officials at the council also complain about the long procurement procedures that take over ninety days.

Mr Chairperson, the allowances for councillors were increased. However, the increase was marginal. For instance, a Grade 1 child, I believe, is not more than eight years old. If the parents expect the seven-year old child to carry a 25 kg bag of mealie meal because the family needs to cook nshima, that is child abuse. I know the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has been to Kalabo, just like some of the hon. Ministers.

Mr Mutelo: To Mitete.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, who do you expect to raise the revenue which the council needs to pay the K700 allowances for councillors? In Kalabo, we sell mushroom, cassava leaves, rice, …

Mr Mutelo: Ni manawa!

Mr Miyutu: How much money can these people pay so that the council can raise the K700 every month to pay the councillors? Let us be fair and give the councils money to pay the councillors. If the councillors in the cities are catered for by their councils, that should apply to those in remote areas.

Mr Mutelo: Sinazongwe!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, the allocation of grants to the councils must differ. Councils in rural areas should be given enough to cater for the councillors. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, all the councillors in Zambia are equal. Whether they are from the Lusaka City Council, Kalabo District Council, Sikongo District Council or Liuwa District Council, they are all councillors. All the councillors do the same job. At the moment, Kalabo District Council is using the vehicle for their hon. Member of Parliament (MP).

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Last time, the Member of Parliament came to the rescue of Kalabo District Hospital. At the moment, Kalabo District Council is using the Member of Parliament’s vehicle ... 

Mr Sing’ombe: Which MP?

Mr Miyutu: … when there is a Government in power. Can you imagine?

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, when a fishing hook does not catch fish, there must be something wrong with it. You must, therefore, check to see what is wrong with it. You will find that, maybe, the bait has come off. Let us be serious. You should love your people as they love you. You must have a heart for the people. Let us not use power for personal gain. This power is to serve the people with poor living conditions. Let us work for them. How much does an Member of Parliament get for him to go to such an extent of lending his vehicle to the council? We have a Government, and yet if you look at some of the allocations in the Yellow Book, you will wonder whether we are in Zambia or somewhere else. You will be punished for some of the allocations one day because you have neglected a lot of people in this country. 

Mr Sing’ombe: Wa taha!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, you keep saying that there is no money to help the people in the rural areas, but I think that is not true. It is not all about money, but your attitude. You do not have the desire to help the people. No wonder you do not even live among them. Now that there is a Presidential By-election, we shall see you going to Kalabo. 

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Why do you only go there during the campaigns? I live among the people and I know what I am talking about. Anyway, we shall be receiving you.

Mr Sing’ombe: Luka ba nata!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about water reticulation. I think we should think about the water which some people drink in this country. There was a time when Hon. Chenda and his entourage went to Kalabo. I recall some of the members in that group failing to drink the water because it did not look like water. The water looks like you have added sugar to it. For this Government to provide good water for us, they will have to utilise the Eurobond. They cannot use the local resource. Can you imagine? The water they want to purify is for the people in urban areas and for us in rural areas, they have to wait for some funding from a donor. This is because they do not value the people in rural areas.   

Mr Miyutu laughed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: That is not leadership. 

Mr Mutelo: Hanjika!

Mr Sianga: Bulela, bulela, sichaba sa ku utwa!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we need to change the Government so that we have a Government that will have a heart for the poor. You cannot borrow money to serve your friend and use your local resource to serve yourself. You do not borrow money for the roads that you are busy constructing here. You are using the taxpayers’ money, but for you to provide clean water in Kalabo, you have to wait for the Americans to give you the money. How fair is that? These people are not fair. We need a real working Government for the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I want to ride on the debates of my colleagues, Hon. Muchima, Hon. Dr Chituwo and Hon. Miyutu. 

Sir, when the former hon. Member of Parliament for Liuwa, who used to sit in that corner of the House proposed the introduction of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), his aim was to fight poverty in rural areas. For those who do not know the former hon. Member of Parliament I am talking about, it is the immediate former Speaker of the National Assembly. Poverty levels and unemployment in this country are serious issues and we can fight them by using the CDF. My colleagues have already elaborated on that …

Mr Simuusa entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Opposition Members: His Excellency!

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Oh! 

I thought you were referring to me.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, if we could increase the CDF to K10 million per constituency, hon. Members of Parliament would be able to work on their own feeder roads, schools and many projects to alleviate poverty. You do not need to look for money from somewhere else. 

Sir, for example, there is money in the Ministry of Community Development, Mother and Child Health. This is where we have programmes for poverty alleviation. There is the Women Empowerment Fund, Food Security Schemes and the Social Cash Transfer Scheme. I am not saying that we should not have social security safety nets for those who are incapacitated. What I am saying is that there is money that can be added to the CDF. Even if we check in the Yellow Book, there is money that goes to the provincial headquarters for poverty reduction. That money could be added to the CDF. 

Sir, my colleagues have said quite a lot about the CDF. However, I want to say that if we increased the CDF to K10 million, like I have proposed, poverty levels in this country would be reduced by 60 per cent. If the next Government also decides to increase it by K10 million, it will be very difficult to unseat it.

Mr Mwanza: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: I will not tell you which party will form Government because Lesa ‘umweni’ ewishibe.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Meaning?

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, it means God is the only one who knows the next Government.

Mr Muchima: In Lozi.

Dr Kaingu: In fact, I should have used Lozi. I used your language and you are even laughing at me.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Shame!

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Sir, we have talked about …

Mr Kampyongo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to rise on this point of order. I have been trying to follow the debate of my uncle, the vice-president …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: The running mate.

Mr Kampyongo: … and running mate, I am told.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: I am trying to make head or tail of the debate. Is he in order to use a language which he has not interpreted and to attack people over a language noone asked him to use? I seek your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: My recollection is that the hon. Member attempted to interpret what he said in Bemba into English.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kaingu: Thank you, Sir.

A human brain is in megabytes …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Terabytes

Dr Kaingu: … or gigabytes, but there are some brains which have very few bytes.

The Deputy Chairperson: I hope what you are debating is on the Order Paper ...

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Yes, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: … because we do not have the monopoly of time. So, lectures on brains and so on and so forth are better left to Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo and others. 

You may continue.

Dr Kaingu: In fact, Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo does not know these things.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: The CDF projects which have been …

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: Yes, that is engineering. You do not know that. It is me who knows it.

The CDF projects for Mwandi Constituency for 2012 and 2013 have not been completed because of the  poor guidelines.

Ms Kabanshi interjected.

Dr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I want you to protect me because there is a lady who messed up the guidelines for the CDF and she wants to engage me …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

If you want protection, stick to the rules of debate.

Dr Kaingu: Yes, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: If you veer away from the rules of debate, no protection shall be availed to you. You may continue.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: In Latin, there is a saying that goes, volenti non fit injuria.

Hon. Opposition Members: Meaning?

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Dr Kaingu: It means that those who volunteer to be injured …

Mr Chisopa: Do not end up injured and they have no fear.

Laughter

Dr Kaingu: Well done.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, order!

Please, stick to the debate because we do not have time.

Dr Kaingu: Thank you very much, Sir. 

As I conclude, …

Interruptions

Dr Kaingu: … I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to immediately look at the guidelines which were destroyed by his colleague in the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chenda: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking all the hon. Members of Parliament, who have contributed in support of the approval of the budget estimates. I want to assure them that we have taken note of the various suggestions that they have made. We shall take them into consideration as we move forward. However, let me also comment on one topical issue, and that is, the CDF. I have stated on the Floor of this House on several occasions that our intention is to make the new guidelines user friendly and make the role of the hon. Members of Parliament conspicuous.

Mr Muchima: Good.

Mr Chenda: However, I have also stated that we want to be very inclusive in arriving at these guidelines and that we shall have a consultative meeting with the stakeholders or hon. Members of Parliament before we conclude the revision of the guidelines. So, I still stand by my word. There is a general outcry for the amount to be increased, but I think a lot has been achieved in the last three years. 

Sir, when the PF came into power, the amount was K720 and, in three years, we have increased the amount to K1.4 million. I am not saying that this amount is enough, but what I am saying is that, at least, there has been a movement towards acknowledging that this fund has been instrumental in the development of our constituencies. 

So, Mr Chairperson, let me assure my colleagues that we shall ensure that my ministry and councils are responsive to the needs of our people. With their support, we shall be able to achieve economic development in the country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 20/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/06 – (Loans and Investments − Local Government and Housing – Housing and Infrastructure Development – K644,487,385).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 014 – Sanitation Infrastructure Development and Sensitisation (7) – K123,000,000. Last year, K5,000,000 was allocated to this activity. Therefore, I would like to find out the reason it has been increased to K123,000,000.

May I also have clarification on Programme 5011, Activity 249 – Fire Hydrants-Urban – K5,000,000. What has caused the decrease in this allocation?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tembo): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5011, Activity 014 – Sanitation Infrastructure Development and Sensitisation – K123,000,000, the increase is due to the aggregation of Programme 5011, Activity 011 and 124. The increase is due to the scope of work for sanitation, infrastructure development under various commercial water utility companies and implementation of the Rural Sanitation Programme on page 423.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 25/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/01 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Human Resource and Administration – K15,169,106).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5001, Activity 006 – Support to Minister’s Office – K1,250,000. The allocation has increased from K300,000 to K1,250,000. What has necessitated this huge increase?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kufuna): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5001, Activity 006 – Support to Minister’s Office – K1,250,000, the increase is due to the increased number of projects to be monitored in districts.

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5012, Activity 005 – HIV/AIDS Impact Mitigation – K100,000. There is a reduction from K250,000 to K100,000. Are we given to understand that the infection rate has reduced? Why has the allocation for mitigation been reduced?

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5012, Activity 005 – HIV/AIDS Impact Mitigation – K100,000, does not show that HIV has reduced. However, the decrease is due to the reduction in the number of activities to be undertaken.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5034, Activity 119 – Registry Reorganisation – K136,350. The allocation has increased from K5,000 to K136,350. What has caused the increase?

Further, may I have clarification on Programme 5009, Activity 002 – Audit Queries and Public Accounts – K100,000, Activity 010 – Production of Financial Reports – K100,000, Activity 028 – Budget Preparation – K100,000 and Activity 030 – Administrative Expenses of Accounts – K100,000. What has caused the decrease in all these activities, especially Activity 028 – Budget Preparation – K137,000 to K100,000? 

The Deputy Chairperson: The first question relates to Programme 2901, on page 475, Programme 5034, Activity 119. The hon. Member wants to know why there is that huge increase.

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5034, Activity 119 – Registry Reorganisation – K136,350, the increase is due to the realised need to computerise the Registry Unit and Archives Centre at Chalimbana Training Centre.

I thank you, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: What about on Programme 5009, Activities 002,010,011 and 028 where there is a reduction. It is on page 474. Why are there reductions? 

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Programme 5009, Activities 002,010,011,028 and 030. All these have been reduced to K100,000. Why is there a reduction? 

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson. On Programme 5009, Activity 002 – Audit Queries and Public Accounts – K100,000, the decrease is due to the reduced number of audit queries. On Activity 010 – Production of Financial Reports – K100,000, the decrease is due to the reallocation of resources to Programme 5009, Activity 043. 

Vote 29/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/05 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Local Government Administration Department – K884,269,190).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 5002. All but one activity under this programme have no allocation. Why is this so? In addition, why has the allocation for Activity 108 – Local Government Forums – K200,000 been increased from K58,00 this year to K200,000 in 2015?  

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5002, Activity 017 – Local Government Week –  Nil, has been moved to Activity 108 – Local Government Forums – K200,000, under the same Programme. Activity 025 – Local, Regional and International Conferences has also been moved to the same activity.

I thank you, Sir.
  
Vote 29/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/06 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Housing and Infrastructure Development – K12,278,091).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, I need an explanation on page 483, Programme 5001, Activity 062 – Nil. Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign. Why is there no allocation for this activity next year? Do we want Zambia to continue being dirty as it is now?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Chairperson, that activity has been provided for under Vote 20 on Programme 5056, Activity 002 – Make Zambian Clean and Healthy Campaign.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 483, Programme 5005, Activity 157 – Urban and Feeder Roads – Nil, Activity 158 – Commercial Utilities – Nil, Activity 164 – Urban Water Supply Schemes – Nil and Activity 168 – Markets and Bus Stations Boards – Nil. Why are there no allocations for all these activities? Further, why are all the activities under this programme for urban areas only, and not rural areas?  

Mr Tembo: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5005, Activity 157 – Urban and Feeder Roads – Nil, has been provided for under Vote 20 on page 422, Programme 5011, Activity 004 – Rehabilitation/Construction of Access Roads and Drainages (1) – K9,151,300.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 29/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 29/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 29/09 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Decentralisation Secretariat – Nil).

Mr Mutelo rose.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have finished. There is no allocation for this Vote.

Vote 25/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

¬________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_____

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, Chief Whip, and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.
______________

The House adjourned at 1930 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 28th November, 2014.