Wednesday, 9th December, 2015

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______ 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

TRANSMISSION OF PARLIAMENT RADIO IN MUCHINGA PROVINCE

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that Parliament Radio is now broadcasting live in Muchinga Province …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … on frequency modulation (FM) 90.5 mega hertz (mhz). 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The transmission covers Chinsali and the surrounding areas within a radius of 100 km.

I thank you.

Mr Mulenga: Hear, hear!
_____________ 

RULINGS BY MR SPEAKER 

RULING BY THE HON. MR SPEAKER ON THE POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR J. J. MWIIMBU, MP, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MONZE CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST THE HON. MINISTER OF INFORMATION AND BROADCASTING, HON. C. KAMBWILI, MP, FOR USING INSULTING WORDS ON THE FLOOR OF THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Hon Members, you will recall that on Tuesday, 24th November, 2015, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 182 and the Member of Parliament for Nkana Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. R. Kazabu, MP, was about to ask a supplementary question, the Member of Parliament for Monze Central Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, raised a point of order against the Minister of Information and Broadcasting, Hon. C. Kambwili, MP. 

In his Point of Order, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, stated that when winding up the debate on the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, the hon. Minister had used insulting words in reference to The Post newspaper. Mr Mwiimbu, MP, thus wanted to know whether the hon. Minister was in order to insult on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Members will recall that in my immediate reaction to the point of order, I reserved my ruling to allow me study the record in question. I have since studied the point of order and the relevant extracts of the verbatim record of the proceedings of the House. Therefore, I now wish to render my ruling.
 
The point of order raises the issue of an hon. Member using insulting language in the House. 

Hon. Members, our rules on etiquette strictly prohibit the use of insulting language in the House. As hon. Members are aware, it is now a notorious fact that on numerous occasions in the past, my predecessors and I have ruled several Members out of order for using insulting language in the House. In addition, hon. Members will recall that I have, on several occasions in the past, guided the House extensively on this issue. 

Hon. Members, a review of the verbatim record showed that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting, in winding up debate on the Vote for his ministry, did use unparliamentary language by quoting what he had said outside the House against The Post newspaper and also by quoting the insulting words from The Post newspaper. 

Hon. Members, the rules of the House on order and decorum, including the rule that prohibits the use of unparliamentary language, were formulated to maintain discipline, decorum and dignity of the House that enable the House to function in an orderly, dignified and respectful manner. Thus, the rule on unparliamentary language calls upon Members to refrain from using unparliamentary language in their debates in the House at all times and in whatsoever manner in order to show respect for the dignity of Members and the House as a whole.

Hon. Members, from the verbatim record, it is indisputable that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting did use certain unparliamentary words in his debate even though he used them in reference to the remarks he had made against The Post newspaper outside the House and to bemoan the unprofessional reporting by The Post newspaper in its publication.

Therefore, the Hon. Minister was out of order in repeating the unparliamentary language on the Floor of the House. I urge him and all hon. Members of Parliament to desist from importing unparliamentary language used outside the House into the House because it demeans the dignity, decorum and integrity of the House.

I thank you.

Mr Mbewe: Mupachikeni!
RULING BY THE HON. MR SPEAKER ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS, HON. H. KALABA, MP, AGAINST MEMBERS OF THE UNITED PARTY FOR NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT WHO WALKED OUT OF THE HOUSE ON FRIDAY, 27TH NOVEMBER, 2015

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that on Friday, 27th November, 2015, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 190 and the Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. C. Miyutu, MP, was about to ask a supplementary question, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Hon. H. Kalaba, MP, rose on a point of order.

In his point of order, Hon. H. Kalaba, MP, sought guidance on whether hon. Members of the United Party for National Development (UPND) were in order to resort to walking out of the House whenever they were aggrieved by a matter before the House.

I reserved my ruling in order to enable me to render a measured ruling after studying the point of order. I have since studied the point of order and now wish to render the ruling as follows:

Hon. Members, the point of order begs an answer to the question of whether it is against the rules, parliamentary practice and procedure of the House for an hon. Member or Members to walk out of the House as a form of protest. 

Hon. Members, as I mentioned in my ruling on Tuesday, 24th November, 2015, on a point of order that was raised by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, a walk-out is a conventional means through which an hon. Member or Members can express his/her or their displeasure on a matter before the House. Although the practice of walk-outs is common in most parliaments worldwide, it has, however, negative and adverse effects, namely it deprives the electorate of representation during the subsistence of the walk-outs.  

Hon. Members, it is also instructive at this juncture to advert to a ruling by one of my predecessors.  Hon. Mr Speaker Robinson Nabulyato, MP, had occasion to rule on the issue in 1992, following walk-outs from the House by hon. Members of the United National Independence Party (UNIP). In his ruling on page 1,527 of the Parliamentary Debates of 28th January to 11th March, 1992, Speaker Nabulyato stated as follows:

“Hon. Members, in some Commonwealth Parliaments, Opposition parties, pressure groups, political factions and sometimes even ruling parties which are represented in Parliament have, from time to time, staged walk-outs from debates of Parliament. This is a political strategy to block Bills, Motions or any questions which, in their opinion, are undesirable, unpopular or objectionable. In some cases, walk-outs have been used by dissatisfied groups of hon. Members to put on record their resentment.

“However, the consequences of walk-outs during the Business of the House have always been negative. Evidence from other Commonwealth Parliaments indicates that walk-outs have, in some instances, disrupted the Business of Parliament due to the lack of a quorum. These negative trends have, at times, denied the electorate true representation when crucial issues have been presented for debate to the House.”
Going by the precedent set on the matter in Speaker Nabulyato’s Ruling, walk-outs per se do not amount to a breach of the rules of the House or, indeed, parliamentary practice and procedure. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In view of this, the hon. Members of the UPND were not out of order …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … for walking out of the House. This is especially so that the hon. Members who walked out on that day returned to the House shortly after what appeared to be an impromptu caucus or consultation.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: In conclusion, I reiterate, nonetheless, that walk-outs have negative effects on the electorate and the smooth running of the Business of the House. I, therefore, urge hon. Members to exercise restraint and tolerance to opposing views, to maintain their presence in the House and to put forth their views, if need be, instead of staging walk-outs. 

I thank you. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

MOBILE NATIONAL REGISTRATION CARD EXERCISE IN NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCE 
 
221.    Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning:

(a)    why officers from the National Registration Office were sent to conduct the Mobile Registration Card Exercise in the North-Western Province without materials such as paper, generators and motor vehicles;

(b)    when the materials would be sent to the province; and

(c)    whether the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) would also extend the mobile voter registration period in the province in order to cater for the people who may not have obtained the national registration cards (NRCs).

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichalwe): Mr Speaker, it is not true that the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship sent officers to the North-Western Province to conduct the mobile issuance of national registration cards (NRCs) without registration materials and equipment such as paper, generators and motor vehicles.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Sichalwe: As at 6th December, 2015, the National Registration, Passport and Citizenship Department had registered a total of 40,799 people ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

There are too many loud consultations going on. 

Continue, hon. Minister. 

Mr Sichalwe: ... in the North-Western Province. This would not have been possible without the stated materials and equipment. However, the Government appreciates that the materials and equipment sent to the provinces may have been insufficient, resulting in shortages in some districts not only in the North-Western Province, but also the Copperbelt and Luapula provinces. The shortages were caused by some delays in the delivery of materials. The shortages were also aggravated by the fact that Phase III of the exercise commenced on 1st November, 2015, a month earlier than scheduled. This was in an effort to synchronise the issuance of NRCs with the Mobile Voter Registration Exercise. 

Mr Speaker, as at Friday, 4th December, 2015, additional materials and equipment had been delivered to the North-Western Province. 

Mr Speaker, the low supply of materials did not affect the issuance of NRCs in the North-Western Province. As at 6th December, 2015, 40,799 people in the province had been issued with NRCs. The National Registration Passport and Citizenship Department will continue to issue NRCs in all the district centres in the country after the expiry of the Mobile Voter Registration Exercise.

Mr Speaker, the Mobile Voter Registration Exercise will end on 13th December, 2015, as scheduled. However, voter registration at the district council offices will continue until March, 2016. Further, the commission will conduct another two-week Mobile Voter Registration Exercise in March, 2016, to accommodate voters who are unable to register during the current exercise.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to raise a point of order. 

Mr Speaker, the good people of Chadiza and, of course, the Zambian people at large, expect the Government to give correct responses to answers. When this session of the House was opened, I raised a point of order to find out who smuggled the President’s Speech out of State House and leaked it to the public. Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning gave a ministerial statement in this House in which she stated that the Government would make known who smuggled the speech out of State House before the House rose. The House will rise tomorrow and we still have not received clarification on this matter. 

Mr Speaker, is the Government in order to keep quiet about such a serious matter?

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Chadiza, you are certainly right in your recollection. Indeed, this response should have come earlier than now. Nonetheless, I have been assured that you will have a response before the House adjourns sine die. 

Mr Muchima: Mr Speaker, does Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning have the correct data from the District Commissioners (DCs) Office with regard to the Mobile National Registration Exercise? Currently, the NRC registration teams in Kafweku and Mwininyilamba in Ikeleng’i are not doing any work because there are no materials to use. Is her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning really in charge of this exercise if she does not know exactly what is happening?

Mr Sichalwe: Mr Speaker, we do not get information on Mobile National Registration Exercise from the DCs, but from the National Registration Passport and Citizenship Department.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Governemnt and Opposition Members indicated.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I mentioned, from the outset, that today, we are really pressed for time. 

Mr Pande (Kasempa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s response clearly shows that the Office of Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning is not well-informed about what is happening on the ground in the North-Western Province. As Hon. Muchima mentioned, the teams that are conducting the Mobile National Registration Card Exercise could have registered the 40,799 persons, but they are not issuing NRCs at the moment because of a lack of materials. The team in Mukunashi is not working because it has no materials to issue NRCs. In addition, there is only one vehicle for use in Kasempa for this exercise. When is the Government going to send the materials? Is the Government going to extend the deadline for the issuance of NRCs? The Government needs to extend the deadline for this exercise unless it wants to de-franchise the people of the North-Western Province.  

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I can assure the hon. Member that the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Office of the Vice-President are on the ground in the North-Western Province and other provinces where this exercise is being carried out. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to request hon. Members ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left! 

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: ... of Parliament to engage with the provincial registration officers and the National Registration Passport and Citizenship Department in Lusaka to get the latest information instead of ‘rushing’ to Parliament to ask questions when they have not ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: ... engaged the officers in the field and those in the offices in Lusaka. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

In addition, this subject has been dealt with through multiple points of order and ministerial statements. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs has volunteered to collaborate with all and sundry who have challenges on this exercise. 

So, we move on to the next question. 

PROJECTS IN 2016 ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE

222. Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: 

(a)    whether the new projects approved in the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure would not be implemented following the directive by the President during a press conference recently; and

(b)    if so, when the affected projects would be implemented.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Bwalya): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I wish to clarify that there is no contradiction, in form or substance, between the 2016 Budget presented to this House by the hon. Minister of Finance on Friday, 9th October, 2015, and His Excellency the President’s Speech at the press conference on Thursday, 26th November, 2015. 

The President’s directives were timely and aimed at meeting the objectives and principles on which the 2016 Budget is premised. This is clearly and sufficiently demonstrated through the Budget theme of, “Fiscal Consolidation to Safeguard our Past Achievements and Secure a Prosperous Future for All”. For instance, in his Address during the press conference, the President unequivocally stated that:

“No Government department will procure works or enter into contracts for goods or services for which there is insufficient or no budgetary allocations, as approved by Parliament.”

Mr Speaker, this is a clear demonstration that this Government is fully committed to the effective implementation of projects contained in the 2016 Budget. After all, the 2016 Budget, which is currently undergoing debate in this House, is a proposal of the Executive under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, in view of what I have stated above, the second part of the question is redundant. This is because the Government has not indicated any intention of shelving any project contained in the 2016 Budget if revenues are made available. 

His Excellency the President directed Government ministries, provinces and spending agencies to desist from procuring or entering into contracts for projects that are not yet part of the Budget plans in order to sufficiently implement the planned projects. 

Let me emphasise that His Excellency the President’s pronouncements were aimed at cutting down unnecessary expenditure or over-expenditure so as to allocate resources to on-going projects contained in the Budget only. Focus, therefore, will be on implementing projects that have maximum benefits to the people of Zambia within the existing Budget provisions. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for …

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, we do not want our friends on your right to move to the left. This being the case, we want to assist them by offering checks and balances so that they do the right thing. 

Sir, a month ago, I stood on the Floor of this House to enquire about the immunity of the Former Republican President, Mr Rupiah Banda. The response from Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning was that the State security wings were still analysing the matter.  

Mr Speaker, this Parliament removed the immunity of the Former Republican President, Mr Rupiah Banda. So, it is the one which is supposed to re-instate it, if at all there is a chance. Is Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning in order to keep us waiting? We would like to know whether or not the Former Republican President, Mr Rupiah Banda, will be given back his immunity. Is the Government in order to keep ‘somersaulting’ and dragging this matter by not telling us what the position is? 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chadiza, kindly withdraw the word “somersault”.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word “somersault” and replace it with changing positions.

Mr Speaker: Anyway, my ruling is that when this matter was raised, as you rightly stated, a response was given by Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning. If there will be any change in position, I am sure that she will advise us in due course. By the way, this Parliament still has some life. 

Anyway, to make progress, I am afraid that was the last point of order for the afternoon. I would like to deal with the rest of the Orders. 

Hon. Member for Mpongwe, you may proceed. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, my understanding is that the Government will not embark on any new projects, but continue with the on-going ones. Arising from your clarification, hon. Deputy Minister, may I know whether works on the Mpongwe/Machiya Road will commence in the first quarter of 2016 as pronounced by the hon. Minister of Works and Supply?

Mr Speaker: If the hon. Minister is able to answer that question, I will allow him to do so. 

Mr Bwalya: Mr Speaker, this is definitely a new question. However, like I stated earlier, the 2016 Budget provisions will surely be carried out for as long as the revenues are made available. So, whatever project is in the Yellow Book has the green light for implementation. 

Sir, if the Mpongwe/Machiya Road is in the Yellow Book, there is every chance that it will be worked on. 

I thank you, Sir. 

RECRUITMENT OF STAFF IN DEFENCE FORCES

223. Mr Namulambe asked the Minister of Defence:

(a)    what the current status on the recruitment exercise of staff in the Zambia Army, the Zambia Air Force and the Zambian National Service was;

(b)    whether the list of successful candidates that was published on various social media fora was authentic; and

(c)    if not, when the exercise would be completed.

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, the position is that the applications are being scrutinised and analysed in order to ensure that the best candidates are selected from the overwhelming total of 168,119 applications that were received. The lists that were published on the various social media is not authentic. The exercise will be completed as soon as the laid-down processes have been concluded. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, if the lists that were circulated on social media are not authentic, how will the Government ensure that the selection of candidates is balanced as opposed to people selecting their preferred candidates? How are they going to ensure that there is adequate regional representation? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, if that was the case, this exercise would have already been concluded. However, it is because of such concerns that we have taken time to ensure that we pick candidates with the right qualifications to fill the available vacancies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, in the past, the Government used to go to various districts of the country to recruit army and police personnel. This was done in order to give an opportunity to people in rural places like Chadiza to join the Defence Forces. However, with this recruitment, everything was carried out here in Lusaka. Why was the recruitment exercise not extended to the other parts of the country?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, this recruitment is exceptional in that it is aimed at replacing professionals that have been lost through retirement, resignation and death.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, in case the hon. Minister does not know, the law requires that the recruitment covers all the provinces and districts of the country. The law must be followed. Why have they made an exception to this law?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that law. However, we ensure that the recruitment covers all the regions of the country. I have stated that this is not a general recruitment exercise, as it is based on professionalism. That is why the application process has been centralised. We shall recruit personnel from all the provinces by considering names and regions of origin of candidates.

I thank you, Sir. 

VALUE ADDED TAX REFUNDS

224.    Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central) asked the Minister of Finance:

(a)    how much money the Government owed each mining company in the form of Value Added Tax (VAT) refunds; and 

(b)    when the amounts owed would be paid off.
 
The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Mvunga): Mr Speaker, the total amount of Value Added Tax (VAT) due to the mining companies as at 8th December, 2015, was K5.25 billion, broken down as follows:

    Company     VAT Amount (ZMW)

    Chambishi Copper Smelter Limited    73.14    million 
    Chambishi Metals Plc    157.97    million    
    CNMC Luanshya Copper Mines     74.74    million
    Genesis Procurement Limited    244,956    
    Grizzly Mining Ltd    4.15    million
    Kagem Mining Ltd    47.85    million
    Kansasnshi Mines Plc    1.8    billion
    Kariba Minerals Ltd    239,173
    Konkola Copper Mines    1.24    billion
    Lubambe Copper Mines Ltd (KONNOCO)    3.12    million 
    Mopani Copper Mines    1.69    billion 
    Sable Zinc Kabwe Limited    56.81    million 
    San HE (Zambia) Limited     1.76    million
    Sino-Metal Leach    5.94    million
    Total    5.25    billion

Sir, the amounts owed to the mining companies are being paid as and when the taxpayers provide the necessary documentation evidence for VAT claims. VAT payments have since increased following the amendment of VAT Rule 18 in February, 2015.
Mr Speaker, in addition, it is normal for the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to owe VAT refunds to VAT-registered businesses at any particular time in the year. This is due to the fact that refunds claimed in a month are only payable in the following month once a business that is claiming such a refund has satisfied all the conditions for VAT refund, such as providing the required documentation to the ZRA Commissioner-General.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that payments are usually subject to the presentation of documents. Which mining houses have failed to present the required documents to the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) for them to get their VAT refund? I imagine this money would have circumvented some of the challenges that the mining companies are faced with at the moment, including the laying off of workers.

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, whenever a claim is outstanding, it means that there is documentation which the ZRA has not received. The ZRA is still awaiting documentation from all the mining companies that have VAT claims that have been withheld.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, is there any interest accruing to mining companies that have met the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) requirements, but have not been paid?

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Member repeat his question?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, repeat your question.

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, is there any interest accruing to mining companies that have satisfied the ZRA requirements, but the ZRA has delayed to pay them due to some liquidity issues? 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, the VAT refund rules are such that the claimants are refunded once they have satisfied the documentary requirements. There will be no interest accruing because they should be refunded when they have met all the requirements.

Sir, I am not aware of any claim that has been withheld because of liquidity issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma: Mr Speaker, in the event that all the mining conglomerates submit the required documentation, is the Government in a position to pay them?

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the Value Added Tax Act stipulates that the money should be paid when all the documentation has been submitted. As far as I am concerned, refunds have been effected in all instances where documentation has been submitted. There is no incident where documentation has been fully submitted where the Government has failed to pay. We shall pay once the documentary requirements have been met.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

MOTION

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Supply to consider Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2015. 

Mr Speaker, I am a bearer of a message from His Excellency the President recommending favourable consideration of the Motion that I now lay on the Table.

Mr Livune: Question!

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda laid the paper on the Table.

Sir, the Supplementary Estimates I am presenting have been prepared in accordance with Article 115(2)(d) of the Constitution of Zambia that reads:

“No warrant shall be issued by the President authorising expenditure from the general revenues of the Republic unless no provision exists for the expenditure and the President considers that there is such an urgent need to incur the expenditure that it would not be in the public interest to delay the authorisation of the expenditure until such time as supplementary estimates can be laid before and approved by the National Assembly.”

Sir, by virtue of the authority conveyed in the Article of the Constitution quoted above, I wish to present Supplementary Estimates, covering the Financial Year 2015. 

Sir, before I outline some of the notable figures in the 2015 Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure, allow me to mention that this year has been unique in terms of Government expenditure on items that are both necessary and unavoidable, but did not form part of the 2015 Budget, as approved by the House in December last year.

Sir, this House is aware that there has been significant movements in some of the fundamental macroeconomic variables that have negatively affected the country’s fiscal position. For instance, the depreciation of the Kwacha against major currencies also meant that the Government had to spend more than the budgeted amount on items such as debt service, medical drugs and other goods and services that are acquired …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

Mr Chikwanda: …with the use of foreign currency. The adverse performance of the Kwacha also led to significant shortfalls in the refinancing of fuel importations which resulted in additional pressure on the Budget.

Mr Speaker, in addition, the unfavourable weather pattern that has been experienced in the last two years has left the country with an unprecedented shortfall in the supply of electricity. This has necessitated the emergency importation of electricity at a relatively higher cost. A supplementary provision is, therefore, required to cover the cost of acquiring this necessary commodity in 2015.

Mr Speaker, I hope I have briefly endeavoured to put into context the uniqueness of the year in as far as the incurring of supplementary expenditures is concerned. 

Sir, in view of the foregoing, I now wish to indicate to the House that the total supplementary request in 2015 stands at K14,864,480,955. Of this amount, K681,809,334 are funds released to various Government institutions towards the end of the financial year, 2014, but spent in 2015, while K383,625,112 are savings that have been declared from within the approved 2015 Budget. A further sum of K308,017,488 is in the form of additional funds received in the year from our co-operating partners, but were not part of the 2015 Estimates of Expenditure.

Mr Speaker, allow me to highlight some of the significant amounts that are contained in this year’s Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure.

Sir, under Head 21 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance, K3.7 billion is required for the payment of arrears on fuel importations and K1,188,060,739 is for additional road works carried out in the year. A further provision of K254,622,627 is necessary for the importation of emergency electricity to cover the shortfalls being experienced in the country.

Mr Speaker, under Head 99 – Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, a supplementary provision of K2,974,856,732 has been proposed. This is mainly for the purpose of dismantling external and domestic debt obligations which have significantly increased during the year due to the sharp depreciation of the Kwacha and the rapid increase in interest rates. 

Sir, under Head 89 – Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on both the left and right!

Mr Chikwanda: … a supplementary provision of K971,845,369 is required for the additional purchase of maize through the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). A further K676.1 million has been proposed for the procurement and distribution of fertiliser and other farming inputs, while K173,520,000 is for additional requirements under the e-Voucher Input Support Programme for the 2015/2016 Farming Season.
Mr Speaker, under Head 05 – Electoral Commission of Zambia, a supplementary provision of K171,653,224 has been proposed to cover the Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government By-Elections held during the year, while K182,500,000 is for the cost of undertaking additional activities on the Voter Registration Exercise. A further K132.8 million is required for the mobile issuance of national registration cards (NRCs) to citizens under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Sir, a supplementary provision of K238,335,821 is also required under Head 17 – Ministry of Foreign Affairs to mainly cater for exchange losses incurred on the payments of staff allowances and other operational costs in our foreign missions. 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, it is my sincere hope that the explanations given above will enable hon. Members of Parliament to understand the key reasons behind the incurring of additional expenditures, as the House considers the estimates. I wish to further indicate that I stand ready to provide additional rationale for these and other requests contained in the proposed Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure No. 1 of 2015.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front Government is asking Parliament to approve the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure in retrospect because of some weaknesses in the current Constitution.

Sir, in the current Constitution, the provision for Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure is an affront on this House because it takes away its legislative powers. Although the Budget is law, the money that we approve in retrospect has already been spent. Time and time again, during the various Constitution Review Commissions, the Zambian people have indicated that they want to approve the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure before the expenditure is incurred. Examples in the regions indicate that it is feasible for the Supplementary Budget to be approved before the expenditure is incurred through a mid-year budget session.

Mr Speaker, there are movements within the year that necessitate the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure, but that should not take away the powers of this House. This is the more reason the people of Zambia want a new Constitution to close some of the gaps that are remnants of the One Party State, where Parliament was subsidiary to the Central Committee of a political party. This country is now a democracy. Therefore, no money must be spent without the approval of the people’s House. While I might not dwell into the validity of the reasons behind the estimates of expenditure, I want to say that we must close this gap, as it is a window for abuse of resources. 

Sir, some of the Government departments, especially in Lusaka Province that is under the charge of the hon. Minister who is making noise and shouting, …

 Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Bweengwa should confine himself to the debate.

 Mr Hamududu: Sir, tell him to keep quiet. He must not shout.

 Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, they are elements of Personal Emoluments in nature. By and large, the Budget is clouded by payments of personal emoluments. While the hon. Minister of Finance has explained some of the inevitables in the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure, there are many areas that do not add value to the socio-economic development of our country. 

Sir, many controlling officers fail to ‘close the tap’ on unnecessary expenditure and live as though things are okay. I want to say that even if we do not pass the new Constitution, the next Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure will be worse because controlling officers know that there is a window in the name of Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure through which they can access money without the approval of this House. Therefore, it is a matter of discipline for controlling officers to live within their means. The Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure also indicate that the Government has no foresight because there are no expenditures that have caught this Government by surprise. The budget items must be anticipated fully. It also means that some proposals in the main Budget are not conclusive.

Mr Speaker, some of the expenditure items that we see in the Ministries of Agriculture, and Works and Supply should have been fully anticipated. Instead, the Government is introducing projects in the middle of the year. The normal way of doing things is to propose those expenditure items to be included in the Budget session. If you want to work on a road or create a new district, it should be included in the Budget for the following year. Such expenditure items should, first of all, be brought to the House to ask for its approval. This clouds out the core issues for our development agenda because the preparation of the Supplementary Budget does not align it to the core developmental issues. Instead, only a few people sit and decide for us the many issues that must be funded. This window, therefore, is a back door and detour from the main route that we must all use so that there is fiscal discipline. Therefore, let us help the hon. Minister of Finance by not passing the Constitution without any amendments. People have proposed these Constitutional changes because they want to close some of the gaps such as this one. I hope this House will discuss this issue and uphold the aspirations and wishes of the Zambians as expressed in the Constitution that they want. The Draft Constitution is not for politicians because we are just a minor stakeholder. The Constitution is for all the people of Zambia, including those who do not vote, but pay taxes.

Mr Speaker: Order!

 You are part of them.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, yes, but we cannot decide for them. 

Mr Speaker: You excluded yourself.

Mr Hamududu: Sir, our job is to safeguard the aspirations of the people. We cannot come to this House and change the ‘goal posts’ because that is abuse of the Parliamentary seats and the people’s House. We draw our legitimacy from the people because they cannot all fit in this House. Hence, they chose 150 representatives to uphold their aspirations, and that is exactly what we must do. If we decide to make some short cuts and reverse what the people want, then, we are simply going back to the dictatorship which came to an end in 1991. We, therefore, want to express democracy in its entirety through a new constitutional order in the document which we shall consider.

Mr Speaker, we, on this side of the House, shall stand up and defend the people’s aspirations, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … including this provision this afternoon. I want to inform our colleagues that whether we lose or not, we shall live by our mandate, which is drawn from the people and shall remain legitimate hon. Members of Parliament in this House. Those who want to shortchange the people of Zambia will do so at their peril because they will not stay in this House. We are here to represent the Zambian people who are listening and are waiting to ask whether we represented them fully. Therefore, political parties must not over rate their powers in the Constitution-making process because they are only one of the various stakeholders.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to say that it is good that the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure have been brought to this House at the time when we are considering something very important. Therefore, this is a good prologue to what will happen next. We must help the hon. Minister of Finance by putting in place a law that will help him imprint fiscal discipline by controlling officers who do not see the urgency of changing the living conditions of our people. Most of the officers live for themselves and do not care about the welfare of others. 

Therefore, Sir, this Budget is for them and nobody else. Controlling officers are conveyor belts for the welfare of the people. We must strengthen laws to ensure that civil servants and controlling officers work for the common good of the people. If we do not do that, no Government will meet the aspirations of the Zambian people. 

Therefore, the law is important to help those who govern, institute and instill fiscal discipline in controlling officers which has been very difficult to maintain in the country. This does not only affect the hon. Minister of Finance, but also all of us. Therefore, the law is the first step towards maintaining fiscal discipline and order so that our people can realise the long cherished better living standards which have eluded them for a long time. This country is blessed, yet it has poor people as if there is no leadership. The Zambian people depend on all of us and they want to see whether those whom they have elected are worth their salt.

With these few words, I support the Motion because it is pointless to oppose it. We are just regularising it. I hope this is the last time we shall approve a Budget which has already been spent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutati (Lunte): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for allowing me to make a few remarks.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Finance has given the two principle reasons for bringing the Supplementary Budget. Firstly, he stated that expenditure of an urgent nature had to be incurred because it could not wait. Secondly, he stated that the supplementary expenditure was necessitated by the economic fundamentals that were unhitched in 2015. The combination of these two factors and others has resulted in a Supplementary Budget of K14.5 billion, representing over 30 per cent of the 2015 Budget.

Mr Speaker, I may not go into the specific expenditure items in the book, but let me state some activities that may be considered to be of an urgent nature. For example, if in the budget for the Ministry of Works and Supply, there is a budget line of K2 million for furniture and the ministry seeks a supplementary expenditure of K4 million, one begins to question the urgency in the procurement of the furniture. If, in the same ministry, there is a budget line of K2.5 million for the purchase of motor vehicles for very important persons (VIP) and it seeks a supplementary expenditure of K7.5 million under the condition that it is of an urgent nature, again, one would question the whole basis and sanctity of the Supplementary Budget.

Mr Mtolo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Sir, we have difficulty of budget management at two levels. At the formulation level that my colleague referred to, civil servants know that even if they under budget, they still have the Supplementary Budget to throw in the real expenditure that they meant to put in the Budget in first place. So, the whole budgeting process becomes an academic exercise in extrapolation because it has to be completed. Unfortunately, the connection between the hon. Ministers and civil servants in terms of understanding the numbers remains significantly disconnected …

Mr Mbewe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: … and that is the beginning of the problem. At expenditure level, we have a Budget that is often treated as a tool for economic governance. However, the Government disregards what is in the Budget and begins to spend significantly outside the Budget.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the Supplementary Budget, almost 60 per cent of the K15 billion constitutes administrative expenses.

Mr Nkombo: Shame!

Mr Mutati: So, there is no equity in development. What is so urgent about spending so much money on administration operations, travel, workshops and mineral water?

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Sir, that is where the problem lies. Without exception, every ministry in the Government is part and parcel of this ‘sundown’ excessive expenditure. To balance the whole process, small amounts are allocated to provinces and districts so that they are all seen to be spending excessively.

Hon. UPND Members: Sundown!

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, the people then begin to ask why we have an economic management architecture that is shrouded in humility, yet it produces 35 per cent excess expenditure. So, we do not know which way to go.

Mr Muntanga: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Sir, this year, most Questions on the Order Paper were in regard to projects on rural roads, clinics, boreholes without the exception of local courts. The average answer that was given on the Floor of this House is that the projects would only be undertaken when funds are made available. On the other hand, administrative expenditure has now resulted in the Supplementary Budget. So, the funds meant for the construction of rural roads and boreholes …

Mr Nkombo: Dams!

Mr Mutati: … have been put in the Supplementary Budget.

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, recently, we debated the provincial budgets and Hon. Kasonso from the North-Western Province …

Mr Kasonso: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: … lamented the lack of development in the province.

Mr Kasonso: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Hon. Miyutu also lamented the lack of development in the Western Province.

Mr Muntanga: And in the Northern Province.

Mr Mutati: Mr Speaker, the 2015 budget for the Northern Province was less than 22 per cent. This year, a number of issues in the province were unattended to. I want to inform the Leader of Government Business in the House that over thirty schools had their roofs ripped off in the last rainy season and we were told that there was no money to attend to this issue that we thought was of an urgent nature.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Sir, some bridges were washed away in the last rainy season. In my understanding, that was also of an urgent nature. So, all we are asking is that there be equity in the treatment of expenditure items that are of an urgent …

Hon. Opposition Members: Nature.

Mr Mutati: … nature although we know that it may not be possible to implement the big projects.

Your Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, as you reflect on these issues, be mindful that there is only three weeks before the end of 2015. I am sure you will find a way of dealing with the blown off roofs for the thirty schools. I am also sure that you will be able to find another way of attending to the payment arrears for pensioners, particularly those from the Northern Province. These are what may truly be supplementary expenditures.

Your Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, I know you have always said that you have never been seized, by what my colleague, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, calls “the ghost of expenditure mutilation”.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: You have never been seized by this ghost and we do not want you to be seized by it. So, on this side, the best we can do is extend our prayers to you.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure or should I call it budget in retrospect.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let us listen to the hon. Member.

Ms Imenda: Sir, firstly, I would like to ask how this expenditure came about. Is it because there was under budgeting in the last Budget …

Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

Ms Imenda: … for 2015, which we debated last year? Was the under budgeting by design in order to take away the power from us to debate and approve it? Now that we have to approve the Budget in retrospect, it is just an academic exercise because expenditure has already been incurred. Are we going to be made accomplices to this illegal expenditure?

Mr Livune: That is right. To be rubber stamps.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, just a point of guidance. If we were dealing with an illegality, we would not be debating this Motion. Certainly, I would not be presiding over a debate on an illegality. Whatever we are doing is within the Constitutional framework. 

So, bear that in mind as you continue with your debate.

Ms Imenda: Thank you, Sir. I will substitute that phrase with ‘expenditure that has not been unauthorised by this House”, but that the Government wants us to authorise in retrospect. This means we really do not have power. Suppose we say no, what is going to happen? The expenditure has already been incurred.

Mr Speaker, the other issues that the hon. Minister of Finance mentioned are those of fuel and the changes in macroeconomic fundamentals. I would like to mention that when the Ministry of Finance budgeted for these items in the 2015 Budget that we debated last year, they should have put a contingency fund in place. I am sure there is a contingency fund in the Yellow Book for last year which should have taken care of these expenditure items, especially the issues of fuel and macroeconomic fundamentals.

Maybe, I can understand the supplementary expenditure on electricity because we did not know that there was going to be a drought. However, with fuel, we know that there are fluctuations in the exchange rate. We know that our Kwacha has a tendency to move downwards. So, we should have catered for that in last year’s contingency budget.

Sir, another issue that the hon. Minister of Finance mentioned, if I heard him correctly, is on the purchase of farming inputs. This item was there in the Budget. So, what is new? Was it not budgeted for? What is new about the purchase of farming inputs such as fertiliser or maize? We know that it is a recurring issue. So, we should have budgeted for it and I believe that we did. So, why did we go beyond what was budgeted for? I need an explanation. I have not heard an explanation that is able to satisfy me on this issue.

Mr Speaker, the other issue that the hon. Minister of Finance talked about is on Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government By-elections. I can excuse the Government for the Presidential By-election because that was an unforeseen circumstance. We lost the Head of State. However, we all know how the local government by-elections came about. The Ruling Party went into some areas and ‘bought’ councillors who belonged to other parties to cross the Floor …
Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Member of Parliament for Luena!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: … to the other side so that …

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Just a moment, the Chair is speaking.

I am uncomfortable with your reference to the phrase “purchase of individuals”, I do not know whether that is tenable. However, whatever it means, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: I am speaking.

Please, mind your language, hon. Member. These are allegations. Let us have substantiated debates.

You may continue, please.

Ms Imenda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I have got evidence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Speak out!

Ms Imenda: One of my councillors was made to do that ...

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, just a moment. If you have evidence of some malpractices, there are State agencies that you can go to and not the Speaker.

You may continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will use the phrase “enticed” since the word “purchase” may be unparliamentary. They enticed the councillors to leave their parties and join the Patriotic Front (PF), hence the by-election.

Interjections

Hon. Member: Did you win?

Ms Imenda: Fortunately, we still won the elections.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: The other issue …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

We want to listen to the hon. Member.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: The other issue I would like to talk about is what I would call wasteful expenditure, which has resulted in this Supplementary Budget, and is in regard to parastatal institutions. Parastatal institutions are supposed to be a source of finance for the Government. If you refer to the Government as a corporate body, then, parastatal institutions would be subsidiaries or whatever you can call them. We know that parastatal institutions are run on behalf of the Government. Therefore, they are supposed to remit money to the Treasury. What have we seen recently? Parastatal institutions have become what I would call kasholwasholwa, especially for the Ruling Party.

Hon. Members: Meaning!

Ms Imenda: Kasholwasholwa is a ka small money spinner for an individual. If you have a kasholwasholwa, whenever you want something, …

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, please, make your debate clear. This debate is being recorded verbatim. As far as possible, use the official language. If you cannot do that, translate the term.

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, I was about to translate it, but you did not hear me because of the noise.

Mr Speaker: That is the point I am making. This side (pointing to the left) is preventing the debate from being heard. The hon. Members on this side of the House are making it difficult for the debate to be heard, and are also being unfair to the hon. Member for Luena Parliamentary Constituency more than anyone else. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, I was just interpreting what a kasholwasholwa is. This is a small fish pond where each time the owner wants fresh fish, he/she just goes there to catch the fish and eat it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Sir, parastatal institutions have become like kasholwasholwas. For example, State House recently held a golf tournament, ...

Mr Chisala rose on a point of order.

Mr Speaker: I will not allow any points of order.

Mr Chisala resumed his seat.

Ms Imenda: ... to fundraise for the Patriotic Front (PF), and these parastatal institutions were made to contribute towards that event. So, why should it be for the PF alone? We also want to hold golf tournaments.

Mr Speaker: Are you still debating the Supplementary Estimates?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Please, show the connection. You may continue.

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, the connection is that if the parastatal institutions could send money to the Treasury, and not give it to the PF for golf tournaments, that would have reduced the Government expenditure and, maybe, not have resulted in these Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure because the Treasury would have enough money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, a question was raised on the Floor of this House concerning parastatal institutions sending the President birthday wishes through the newspapers. The Government’s response was that that had always been the culture. I remember that during President Mwanawasa’s rule, this was abolished, and it only came back after his demise.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Mr Speaker, we debated the Budget last year. However, I have noticed that lately, projects such as the construction of roads in Lusaka are implemented at the expense of roads in Luena. Lusaka Province is the stronghold for the PF, as most of the Members of Parliament come from here. The roads in Luena Parliamentary Constituency, which were budgeted for, have not been worked on. Firstly, the Government deliberately chose not to budget for most of the roads in Luena, and those that were budgeted for, have still not been worked on. However, roads like Chilimbulu, Burma and the Great East have all been worked on. You know the hon. Members of Parliament who represent those areas.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ms Imenda: Sir, I live in Rhodes Park and so, I have seen the road works that are being carried out. Just like someone said earlier, it is as if the people working on the roads are moving from one house to the other. However, nothing of that sort has happened in Luena Parliamentary Constituency. So, this is the unfairness that I am talking about. We are being made to approve the Supplementary Estimates of Expenditure, which is unfair and discriminatory. I feel very uncomfortable doing that.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, firstly, I wish to assure the House that there is no legal or moral impropriety. Like I said when I prefaced my remarks, the Supplementary Estimates are presented in accordance with the provisions of Article 115(2)(d) of the Constitution of Zambia. If we want to change the rules to ensure that there are no supplementary budgets, that is another thing. That is a preserve of the House and hon. Members of Parliament. However, the Supplementary Estimates are being presented strictly in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution which allows for such things. I will not deprive the hon. Members of the opportunity to play to the galleries in and outside the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chikwanda: Sir, they are entitled to that, except that these things, ...

Ms Lubezhi: Question.

Mr Chikwanda: ... do not bring service to the people. The hon. Member for Lunte Parliamentary Constituency is worrying me as his elder. He knows that I am delighted in him, and there is a lot of affinity between us, but he is worrying me because he is doing a disservice to himself. He is a man of great intellect, but he wants to make it a practice to incline to verbal rhetoric excesses.

Laughter

Mr Chikwanda: Hon. Member for Lunte, if I was outside this House, I would have said, “Hon. Shi Mulenga, please, do not do a disservice to yourself because you have intellect and you should not be like people who are under-endowed intellectually.”

Laughter
Mr Chikwanda: So, there is, ...

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Take a seat Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha. Let us proceed in an orderly manner.

Hon. Minister of Finance, I would like us to proceed with dispatch. I can sense the temperature in the House. Let us try to be objective. Hon. Minister of Finance, you are renowned for objectivity.

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I will not brutalise my hon. colleagues, ...

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Chikwanda: ... for their legitimate expression of concerns. We are all concerned. Our country needs some kind of fiscal rectitude. Otherwise, our prospects of developing will be perpetually bleak if we do not embody fiscal discipline. These Supplementary Estimates are not everything that we could have anticipated. There are very little elements of recurrent expenditure in the Supplementary Estimates. It is only that when we send to register voters or issue national registration cards (NRCs) to either people who have reached the age at which they get the NRCs or those who have lost theirs, we have to pay them some modicum of allowances. That is the only recurrent expenditure there is. Otherwise, there is no element of recurrent expenditure beyond what is legitimate and due. If we look at items like those under the Ministry of Agriculture, we shall see that the K971.845,369 we have allocated is due to the pressure that we got from this House ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chikwanda: ... when hon. Members of Parliament said that all the maize that had been produced had not been bought. The Food Reserve Agency (FRA) bought all the 500,000 metric tonnes as strategic stock. Then, we were slightly too euphoric or optimistic about the capacity of the private sector buyers to buy the maize. So, we had this maize which people have worked so hard to produce, but there was no one to buy it. So, the Government had to come in. This is how this K771.8 million arises principally at the behest of you, hon. Members, anxious that people in your constituencies, especially small-scale farmers had worked hard and broke their backs to produce the maize which nobody was buying. So, we found ourselves in those circumstances. Then, there is a further K671.1 million proposed for the procurement and distribution of fertiliser and other farming inputs, K173.5 million for the e-Voucher System which needed to be funded. So, I think that all the expenditures are quite legitimate and have no emolument-related factors except for where people have to offer certain services like registering voters or issuing NRCs. Also, there is a small element of allowances which you have to pay the people in order to procure their services.

Mr Speaker, I am, however, grateful to hon. Members of Parliament for supporting this Motion. We did not all have the opportunity to debate the Motion on the Floor, but I am also grateful to those who rendered their support in silence. My gratitude goes especially to the three hon. Members who have spoken for their contributions, less their excesses.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I, therefore, commend these Supplementary Estimates for unanimous approval by the House.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that the House resolve into Committee of Supply to consider Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2015, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (107)

Mr C. K. B Banda 
Mrs Banda 
Mr N. Banda 
Mr W. Banda 
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs Chungu
Mr Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Mr Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr M. Malama 
Mr M. H. Malama 
Mr Masumba
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Mutale
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe 
Ms Ngimbu 
Mr Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (40)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu 
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imenda
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Mtolo
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Mutelo
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions − (1)

Lt-Gen. Bishop Shikapwasha

Question accordingly agreed to and the House resolved into Committee of Supply.

_____________ 

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES NO. 1 OF 2015

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1620 hours until 1635 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 16/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 18/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Ah! 

I think I am just reading to myself.

Laughter

The Chairperson: I wonder whether people are listening. The only problem is that it disturbs me. Maybe, I should go to the last page.

Laughter

Vote 18/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 18/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 19/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 21/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 26/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 26/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

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Vote 37/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 37/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 37/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 37/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 37/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 37/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 45/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 46/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 51/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 51/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

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Vote 93/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 94/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 94/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 94/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 95/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 95/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96 /01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

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Vote 96/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 98/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2015 reported approved.

Report adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect hereto at a later date.

________

BILL

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMMBIA (Amendment) BILL, 2015

The Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment 

1.    In the memorandum 
(a)    on page 1, 
(i)    in paragraph (f) by the deletion of the words “mixed member  proportional representation” and the substitution therefor of the words “first-past-the-post”; and 

(ii)    in paragraph (i) by the deletion of the words “and the appointment of Parliamentary Secretaries”; and

(b)    on page 2 
(i)    by the deletion of paragraph (k); and
(ii)    by the renumbering of paragraphs (1), (m), (n), (o), (p), (q), (r), (s) and (t) as paragraphs (k), (1), (m), (n), (o), (p) , (q), ( r ), and (s) respectively. 

Sir, we propose that the provision on mixed member proportional representation be set aside for the time being for further reflection and consultation at a later stage. The Patriotic Front (PF) is not discarding the principle of mixed member proportional representation. We thought that the Zambian people should further reflect on it.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for the opportunity to debate on the proposed amendment by the hon. Minister of Justice. In his statement, he has indicated that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is simply shelving this provision and not discarding it.

Sir, I am sad to say that the document that contains the amendment, which the hon. Minister is proposing that we should accept in this House, should stand side by side with the aspirations and voices of the people who put it in there.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, in his statement, the hon. Minister has indicated that the Patriotic Front Government is not discarding that provision.

Sir, this entails that by admission, the hon. Minister has confessed that he is leading this process. Therefore, it takes away the nomenclature that has been popularly adopted by the people of Zambia that this is a people-driven Constitution.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: In view of this, we should change the nomenclature and call it a “PF-driven Constitution” which will, by implication, exclude some of us because there is no justification in doing so whatsoever. In his proposal, the hon. Minister simply says, “We would like to shelve it and not abandon it.” He has not motivated us by giving the reasons for this and how valid these reasons may be.

Mr Chairperson, in fortifying my point, I would like to draw the hon. Minister’s attention to what he said when he presented a ministerial statement on 19th March, 2015.
 
He said:

“Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for giving me this opportunity to apprise this august House on the Constitution-making process. Mr Speaker, this House will recall that on the eve of our Independence Celebrations, 23rd October, 2014, on behalf of the then hon. Minister of Justice, who is now our Republican President, His Excellency Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, I had a rare privilege of releasing the Final Draft Constitution to this august House and the general public.”

Sir, he further said that:

“Mr Speaker, a roadmap to the final phase of the Constitution-making process and guidelines for the public-validation process of the contents of the Final Draft Constitution were prepared and made available to the public for comment on 13th January, 2015.”

Mr Chairperson, as a representative of the people of Mazabuka, some of whom were part and parcel of the provincial, district and national assembles that put this document together, I vehemently object to the deletion of this provision and wish to state that this is a vindication on our part of why we objected the Patriotic Front’s (PF) idea of ‘mutilating’ this document which belongs to the people of Zambia.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to echo the sentiments of my colleague, Hon. Nkombo, who represents the people of Mazabuka.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Justice stated that the Governemnt supports this provision, but wants to defer it. The rules of this House are very clear. The hon. Minister of Justice has proposed an amendment to this clause. This is an indication that the Patriotic Front Government does not want this provision.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I do not support the deferment of this provision because there is no such provision in our rules. We either amend the provisions or agree with them as they are.

Mr Chairperson, we are all aware that the youths and women of Zambia have always been under represented in this House. We have always been unanimous on this matter.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: How can our colleagues change their position and remove this progressive provision which has no threat against their being in power? It is a very innocent clause which does not hurt anyone, but will hurt the people of Zambia who aspire to be represented in this House if removed.

Sir, I am aware that at one time, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning was very categorical on this issue when she was the hon. Minister of Gender. She made pronouncements that the women of Zambia are under represented in this House and has been a champion of women’s rights. The Gender Equity and Equality Bill, which seeks to domesticate the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol on Gender and Development was brought to this House to try to enhance the representation of women in this House. However, today, I am surprised to hear the Government, which she is leading in this House, say that it does not want a clause that enhances the representation of women and youths in this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Why have they changed? I know we have not yet reached the Article that deals with this issue, but we cannot have it if we remove it from the Memorandum. So, my colleagues and I …

Mr Ndalamei: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … stand firmly behind the submissions of the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I want to challenge the women Parliamentarians to support …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … this clause because it will increase their number in this House. If they do not want their fellow women to come to this House and increase their representation, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they should vote against this, but they should bear in mind that the women of Zambia are following this debate.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: As you debate, bear in mind that points that have already been debated should be avoided so that we can listen to as many new points as possible. In short, I am saying that you should not be repetitive in your debates. If a point has been made, associate yourself with it, but move on to a new area.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to associate myself with the debates of the previous debaters. I listened very carefully to the hon. Minister of Justice when he said that the Government intends to defer this Article. However, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when this Article will be considered? Is there a time frame for this? Why do they think it is not appropriate to do it now? I believe that together, we can achieve greater things by quickly passing this Article. So, when will the hon. Minister bring this Article for consideration because it will be very helpful?

Sir, my points have already been debated and there is no need for me to repeat them.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kambwili): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to contribute to the debate.

Sir, the most dangerous thing to do in life is to be inconsistent by saying one thing today, and a contrary thing the following day. This clause seeks to increase the number of hon. Members of Parliament by ninety-four seats. However, as the Government, we feel that currently, we do not have the money to pay …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … allowances for the ninety-four hon. Members of Parliament.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, the current economic situation in the country does not allow any fiscal space …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … for bringing in an extra ninety-four hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, people want to play to the gallery by saying that this will create opportunities for the youth and women, but that is not what the Bill states. It simply states that there will be additional ninety-four hon. Members of Parliament who will not be elected, but nominated according to the percentage of votes each political party obtains in the election.

Hon. Government Members: Yes! Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: When the President increased the number of Ministers by three, you, the Opposition, cried foul and said that the Government was bloated. However, you have turned around today by saying that you want to add ninety-four Members of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Let us be serious.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We are debating an important issue. Therefore, we must be patient and listen to one another.

Mr Kambwili: This will entail having ninety-four new vehicles for the Members, the extension of the Chamber and payment of ninety-four more gratuities. Where are we going to get the money to take care of all the expenditures?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The problem with you, hon. Members from the United Party for National Development Party (UPND), is that you have never been in the Government. So, you do not know the cost implications.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: That is why you just wake up and start saying things that you do not understand.

Just last week, you complained about teachers’ salaries being paid late and that there are no medicines in hospitals. Instead of buying more medicines for hospitals and building schools, you want to bring more of your relatives here as Members of Parliament.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, it would be irresponsible of us, as the people in the Government now, to increase the number of Members of Parliament when we have few doctors and nurses in the country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The money you want us to pay new Members of Parliament can go towards the payment of teachers and nurses, and buying more drugs in hospitals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Governance does not start and end at Parliament. Currently 52 per cent of the Budget goes towards the payment of salaries. Then, you want to increase the wage bill. 

As a responsible Government, I would say that you people do not mean well because you have been inconsistent by saying that we have a bloated Government. Now, you want to have a bloated Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Extension officers!

Mr Kambwili: What kind of people are you?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: So, do not use the innocent women and youths who want medicines in hospitals and teachers, and teachers’ houses in rural areas to justify your being unreasonable by playing to the gallery.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I think, by and large, those who are going to vote in support of having more Members of Parliament should be punished come 2016. The people of Zambia are following these debates

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to contribute to the debate on behalf of the people of Chongwe and, indeed, on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Sir, the more I listened to my brother, Hon. Kambwili, Minister of Information and Broadcasting debating, the more I told myself that it is important that I speak so that the people, as he rightly put it, who are listening to our debates, can judge us properly and take the right decision next year.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: If the people of Chongwe think I am inconsistent on this matter as their area Member of Parliament, especially that I have been here longer than some of my colleagues here, they will judge me appropriately. 

Mr Chairperson, all of us in this country have been lamenting the poor representation of women and youths not just in Parliament, but also at different levels. This is how this clause came about. Issues of gender equality, disabilities and poor people could be dealt with through this Article on mixed member proportional representation. That was the reason the Article was put in the Draft Constitution by the people Zambia. 

As much as I appreciate the sentiments on the issue of a lack of money that have been articulated here, I am aware that a lot of clauses that are in this Draft Constitution will cost huge sums of money to effect. There are certain clauses that are more important and necessary, especially if they add value to the welfare of the people. It has been argued that the more women representation there is, the better for the development of the country. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, one of the many arguments that have been put across by the Executive in relation to this amendment is that it is expensive to implement. Therefore, it should be shelved temporarily. However, I thought that they would have reduced the number from ninety-four Members of Parliament to thirty instead. Unfortunately, the clause has been removed. It is not surprising that the clause has been removed because there are few women in this House to fight against this. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I have observed that when there are debates of this nature in this House, only two women stand up to speak because there is less representation of women. 

Sir, getting back to the core issue, the Church, civil society organisations and the people of Zambia have said that we, in this House, are not the right people to deal with the Constitution. Clearly, this is evident. The people who have said this are being vindicated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Even before the House started debating this issue, the Executive was saying “We, as the Government, cannot allow this carelessness,” meaning that this is not the people’s Constitution, but that of the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: In my humble understanding, I thought that we were amending the Article in the Constitution but, when I looked at the document that we are amending, I have noticed that it is not the current Constitution, but a completely new document. This document has not yet been availed to the people, but has been brought straight here. As agreed, we should have let it to go back to the people. We had also agreed with the Government that the document was going to go through a Constituent Assembly. Most of the statements made by the Government and the hon. Minister of Justice in particular were refreshing, as he sounded like a man of integrity. The people believed that, for once, this Government …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mrs Masebo: … was going to keep its word. However, from the recent statements made and what we are doing now, one can tell that things have changed. 
Hon. Member: Question!

Mrs Masebo: The statements have changed.

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I will not be amenable to allowing points of order because I want the debates to flow. So, take note of this when it is your turn to speak. Leave no stone unturned.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The idea is to let the debates flow without disturbing people’s trains of thought and the like.

Hon. Masebo, you may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. The point I was making was that most of the hon. Minister of Justice’s statements relating to this issue have been very good. However, when you compare what he had said with what we are doing today, it is completely different.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Hence the Church and the civil society cannot trust us anymore. 

It is clear, Mr Chairperson, that even before we start debating the issue, the first thing we do is let down the people by going against every word that we said.

Sir, there are a number of clauses that I may be against, some of which were brought by the civil society, communities and individuals. I hold my own views, but there are also views of the people of Chongwe. Her Royal Highness Chieftainess Nkomeshya Mukamambo II also referred to the issue of a lack of money that the Government talked about. The Governemnt said that when it comes to issues relating to the Constitution, the issue of a lack of money should not be prioritised. 

We agreed that we would come up with a people-driven Constitution. If this time around, the Government thinks that there is no money because the economy is not doing well, then, it is better not to bring the Constitution (Amendment) Bill to this House. It would be better to wait until we have the money. It does not make sense for me to come here and listen to an hon. Minister say that he wants the Constitution this way and not the way the Opposition wants it to be because they are not thinking properly. What he considers good may not be good for me. Like I said, there are some clauses which I may not support because I think they are not good for the country, but who am I to stop them from being included in the Constitution? The Constitution is for the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Sir, it is not good for those who are on the Frontbench to want to appear to be wiser than everyone else. The truth of the matter is that there could be many clauses that may not be good for us, but only the people should decide on their inclusion in the Constitution since its their document. If the people of Zambia say they want Members of Parliament to be five feet tall and not three feet tall, who am I to say no? Allow the people to get what they want. If they go through the Constitution and see that it is not right, then, they will agree to the changes.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on the left!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I feel sad that we had initially said that we would not bring a White Paper. I was telling someone that this Bill amounts to a White Paper and they said to me:

“Hon. Masebo, this Bill is not a White Paper. This is as good as toilet paper and is fit for the dustbin.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Could you withdraw that statement, please.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw that phrase, but I was just quoting what somebody said to me.

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, but you must quote what is parliamentary, and not what is unparliamentary. With that caveat, continue.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw that statement. This is worse than a White Paper because when you look at all the Constitution Review Commissions that this country has had, you will see that the process that the people of Zambia have gone through this time around has involved more consultations than the others.

I do not think it is right for hon. Members on your right to come here today and change their position on what they had promised the people. They are claiming that the Opposition is irresponsible for demanding to have certain clauses included in the Constitution. They think that they are cleverer than us just because they are in the Government. It is even better for us to go to a Referendum and convince the people of Zambia that the clauses they have proposed to be included in the Constitution are not good for them. That way, they will decide whether to support us or not. This would be better than coming here to use this House to manipulate a document.
Sir, I just want to say that this is total deceit and I will not be a part of it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Takwata party, uyu. Political prostitute.

Hon. Members indicated.

The Deputy Chairperson: Just give me a chance to take note of all the hon. Members who are indicating. I want all the groupings to be given an equal opportunity to debate.

Mr Chilangwa (Kawambwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate on behalf of the people of Kawambwa. It saddens me when people want to be champions when they cannot win popular elections. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, I am being honest. Some people came to this House through the back door because they failed to win popular elections. Today, they want to be champions. This is unacceptable. This is an insult to the Zambian people. We know what happened for some people to sit in this Parliament. However, today, they want to be champions.

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Chilangwa: I do not care if you are one of them.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chilangwa: Further, Mr Chairperson, ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on the left!

Mr Muntanga interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Order, Hon. Muntanga!

We must all make sure that we do not waste time debating each other. Let us debate the Constitution.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: People whom you represent and purport to speak for are not interested in listening to you debate each other. They want you to debate issues. Therefore, allow the hon. Member to debate. I know that he will take my advice into account as he continues to debate.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I am most obliged. The issues that I am debating concern the Constitution. We come to this House through competitive elections. We come here through the wish of the Zambian people. So, just because I happen to be here does not mean that my kin must also come here even when I entered through the back door.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, the Zambian people need proper representation. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May I guide the House. Hon. Member, nobody came to this House through the back door. So, debate the issues.

Hon. Government Members: Mwakalombe!

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, the issue I was trying to buttress, which I will not dwell on, is very clear. At the moment, there are 150 constituencies in this country. Some of the constituencies are vast. There are twenty-two wards in Kasempa. Kapiri Mposhi and Chama North parliamentary constituencies are vast. As a progressive Parliament, what we really need is to discuss how we can split some of the vast constituencies. If we do that, the people of Kanchibiya, who have been failing to see their Member of Parliament on a regular basis due to the vastness of the constituency, will be able to see him. Can you believe that while seven constituencies have six wards each, one hon. Member represents a constituency that has twenty-two wards? To get from one end of the constituency to the other, one has to travel the whole day. I have been to Kasempa and Kapiri Mposhi parliamentary constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, that is the reason I am saying we need to think through the proposal we are making here. Hon. Minister of Justice, I thank you for withdrawing the clause which would have enabled people to come to this House without competitive elections. Children, men and women, young and old, can all go through elections. All of us need to go through elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, there is no need for some people to be appointed Members of Parliament.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Colleagues on the left, please, no running commentaries.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, am I protected?

The Deputy Chairperson: You are definitely protected. Continue.

Mr Chilangwa: Sir, some people come here purporting to speak for the electorate when those they claim to represent have not even seen them in the last six months. Some people here purport to speak for the underprivileged groups, such as women and children, when they are not.

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, time for reckoning is coming. It is around the corner. Time will come when we shall all go back to the electorate. The people of Kawambwa are not interested in the mixed member proportional representation. That is why I thank the hon. Minister for withdrawing that Article. The people of Kawambwa and Luapula in general, are asking what this mixed member proportional representation is. They are wondering who the people who are speaking on their behalf are. 

Sir, the Secretary-General of the United Nations (UN), Mr Ban Ki Moon, said:

“We have the mandate to represent our people, ...”

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that suppose I have a company called Chasefu Sons and Daughters with 158 employees and I failed to pay all the 158 employees, would it make sense to employ another ninety-seven employees? Moreover, I need to define what the new employees would be doing in Chasefu Sons and Daughters Company.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I would not be a reasonable person if I stood on the platform in the neighbourhood to call people to come and be part of my company when it is struggling financially. 

Mr Chairperson, a well-meaning representative of the people should not play to the gallery. Therefore, it would not be reasonable to include the mixed member proportional representation in Parliament in our Constitution. I thank the hon. Minister of Justice for withdrawing certain clauses because I do not think our current economic situation would justify making those walking the streets of Lusaka representatives of the people in here. I do not believe a mixed member proportional representation would serve the interest of the people of Kawambwa or the needs and desires of the people of Mitete.

Mr Chairperson, it took me nine hours on a boat from Lukulu East to get to Lukulu West. I do not think some members of the so-called civil society organisations, who are pushing for mixed member proportional representation in this House, have even been to that place. If we had a mixed member proportional representation, how many would be women, children, disabled or youths? We do not know, but I assume it would be left to the political parties to decide who should represent them.

Mr Chairperson, even in school, those who want to be top of their class must work hard. That is what I know. Even the head boy/girl of a secondary school is chosen from amongst the most hardworking pupils. Therefore, why should we go hunting around for people to be representatives in here? Who are they going to represent or what will their constituencies be?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, some people want to talk loudly because they have been around for a long time, but their time in this House is coming to an end. They are not coming back after the next General Elections. I went to Monze recently and the people were saying that they are happy with the Patriotic Front Government.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Chilangwa: If the people of Monze are happy with what we are doing, then, I am speaking on their behalf because the hon. Member of Parliament for that area has decided …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

I gave guidance before that we should desist from debating each other.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, let us debate the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill and not one another.

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, I have no desire to debate individuals, but the Constitution. However, some people, who have debated earlier, want to champions issues they do not understand because they have outlived their usefulness …

Interruptions 

Mr Chilangwa: Mr Chairperson, Kasempa is 22,000 km².

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

The Deputy Chairperson gave the Floor to Ms Kalima.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. First and foremost, let me mention that I had no intentions to debate, but I have been prompted to do so after hearing how some people want to use women to push for their agenda. That is what has forced me to get up from my chair.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: As a female Member of Parliament, I will not allow people to push their agenda in the name of fighting for women.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, the amendment under discussion is not about women. As Hon. Chilangwa has said, there is no figure that has been set for women in the clause on mixed member proportional representation in this House. Going by this clause, it is still possible for all hon. Members to be men. Therefore, it is unfair for one to come to this House and say that the mixed member proportional representation is in the interest of women in order to mislead the nation. That will not be tolerated.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I want to be brief. Therefore, my second point is on the sitting space in this House. If we are to increase the number of hon. Members in this House, we have to expand this Chamber. In other parliaments that I have visited, some hon. Members of Parliament do not attend sittings of the House due to a lack of sitting space. We cannot tolerate such a thing in here because we are an orderly House.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, some people have said that they want a mixed member proportional representation because their constituencies are big. Let me inform them that one vast constituency is Kasenengwa. However, I am a very efficient hon. Member of Parliament. I got the highest number of votes, 87 per cent, in the 2011 General Elections because I worked hard. Even when my seat was nullified, I worked hard and was voted back here. It is just people who are lazy and do not want to visit their constituencies who want to bring in an extra ninety-four Members. This will be an additional cost to the National Treasury.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to emphasise that I support the amendment brought to this House by the hon. Minister of Justice.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Let us all be brief and debate straight to the point.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I have listened attentively to the proposal by the hon. Minister of Justice that the article on mixed member proportional representation should be removed from the Draft Constitution. I would have been more comfortable had he given the same reasons for the proposal as Hon. Chilangwa. Some constituencies are big indeed. Therefore, instead of increasing the number of hon. Members by ninety-four, the hon. Minister could have settled for forty-six. 

Mr Chairperson, I have been prompted to stand up and debate this matter because the United Party for National Development (UPND) has been mentioned in the debates. I listened attentively to the person who made these remarks. After he mentioned the UPND, I wondered how consistent he has been on this issue because …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I made a ruling that we should not spend time debating each other. So, veer off that route as you continue making your point …

Mr Muntanga: I am talking about consistency with regard to …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The point is that you should not debate one another. You can rebut in a subtle way, but do not debate each other.

Mr Muntanga: When the Constitution-making process first started, our friends in the Patriotic Front (PF) refused to participate because they felt that certain groups of people were not included. That was understood, but the process went on anyway. Among the clauses that we wanted included in the Draft Constitution was the 50 per cent plus one majority vote for a candidate to be declared winner of a Presidential election. Our colleagues in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) did not want this, but we, in the UPND, maintained our position on the matter.

Our friends, in the PF, consistent as they are, have gone further to bring the Draft Constitution to Parliament. In the Draft Constitution is the issue of the Referendum. The PF said they would give the people a people-driven Constitution. We are consistent by saying, “Let us go that way,” but they said, “No, let us cherry pick.” I wonder who is consistent and who is not. 

Mr Chairperson, we also know that some people have told us that if a certain thing happens, they will sell their souls to the devil, but they never do that because we know they are inconsistent through and through.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: We know they cannot sell their souls to the devil even when what they said happened. The Constitution calls for people to be consistent. When other parties had elections, we were told that one of them did not qualify to be a candidate for an election but, when that leader won, they all danced with his supporters.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: They are praise singers.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: We are consistent. We maintain what we say. When we tell you that, “Let us agree on what the people say,” it does not mean that we totally agree with what is contained in the document. However, this is what we made people believe. We are now talking about how difficult it is to find money. Other countries come up with austerity measures. The new President of Tanzania cancelled the celebrations for the official opening of Parliament and …

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … the money was used to buy hospitals beds. Today, 4 billion shillings that was allocated for the Independence celebrations was reallocated towards the expansion of the road between Dar-es-Salaam and Bongamoya. What has stopped this Zambian Government from coming up with austerity measures? Why should we refuse to take austerity measures? Countries that have come up with austerity measures have more than 300 Members of Parliament. It is only in Zambia where we come to Parliament to talk about the lack of money. I hear there are new satellite phones to be bought for all hon. Ministers. I am not sure how true that is. If we are serious about the issue of money, let us be serious all the way. When you talk about being consistent, check how consistent you have been first. 

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Do not attack your friends if you are not consistent yourself. We can bring the recordings and listen to what you have said before. Let us learn to listen to ourselves. What we are saying is that we are consistent. Since this is a democracy, once you lose, you move to the next stage. Now, we do not accept this amendment. 

Mr Chairperson, in fact, I was worried because this new Draft Constitution, if you have noticed, has no Part III. I believe, even if Part III is not in the new Draft Constitution, will still apply. Otherwise, the Constitution that we are going to vote for has no Part III which refers to the protection of fundamental human rights. We cannot change it. We will be hanging between the old Constitution and the new one. We shall have to use part of the old Constitution and the new one. The new Constitution, which is the document we have been given, has no Part III. We are not saying that Part III should be amended. You can only amend Part III of the Constitution through a Referendum, but it is not in the document we have been given. 

Mr Chairperson, since we cannot amend Part III of the Constitution, it should also be given to us, but should not be touched. We are referring to a document which has no Part III and saying that we are amending the Constitution. This is what I call cherry picking, and I have a problem with that. 

What are we doing? If we are not sure of what we are doing, we might as well withdraw the Bill and start afresh. I had hoped that the hon. Minister of Justice would bring a Bill that would allow us to debate the whole document, but he has not done that even when he had the opportunity to do so. We are now proceeding to enact the Constitution with a few cherry-picked clauses which, according to the hon. Minister of Justice, suit the PF Government. He should have said we would discuss clauses that suit the people of Zambia. However, that would create a problem. Where do we leave other parties? Have we all become PF members now?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Muntanga: I am afraid not. I, for one, do not intend to be PF. 

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: In that case, I want the Government to think properly. The hon. Minister of Justice should not bring an amendment and say that it is what suits the PF Government. This is the party that refused to support the Constitution Bill which was brought before the House by the MMD. Now, it has persuaded others to agree with it. 

Mr Chairperson, we, in the UPND, are consistent. We need a proper Constitution which is acceptable. It is on this premise that we insist that the cherry-picking of certain views that may not be acceptable be discussed by the majority of the people. What made us fail to allow the people of Zambia to decide on this document? Someone says that if we go this route, the chiefs will not support this view because, in the Draft Constitution, like in the current Constitution, land is vested in the Head of State.  It is the same in each case. The chiefs want land to be in the hands of the people of Zambia, but this is not in the current document before the House. If you want to do what the people of Zambia want, go by what they want. 
Mr Chairperson, how can the hon. Minister say that the UPND does not understand the cost implications of certain clauses in the Draft Constitution because it has never been in the Government? He only got in the Government four years ago and he has done a bad job of it.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: I doubt whether he can say that ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let the hon. Member debate, please.

Mr Muntanga: We are not refuting the fact that the UPND has never been in the Government. However, they cannot justify wrong things simply because they are in the Government. The hon. Minister knows what he used to do when he was on the Opposition side. He used go to the extent of protesting alone.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: When you are on the Government side, you should listen to your friends. In fact, you are better off listening to those who have never been in the Government. We are saying that we should tread carefully on the issue of the Constitution. 

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: The PF is the one that used what people wanted for political expediency. We do not do that. Our friends brought politics into this arena. For example, they said that they would give the people of Zambia a new Constitution in ninety days. Had they not said that, people would not demand it from them. They told the people of the Western Province that they would honour the Barotseland Agreement when they got into power.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: This is why people are demanding for it.

Hon. Kambwili: No points!

Mr Muntanga: What you must understand is that these promises have not been fulfilled and this will not go in your favour.

Mr Livune: Igwe!

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: As far as I am concerned, you may not sell your soul, but you have to deal with what you do not want.
Hon. UPND Members: Mr Chairperson, I will not support the cherry-picking of amendments because it is not right.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: This is a memorandum. 

Mr Simbyakula: Mr Chairperson, I indicated that we, on the right side, are not discarding the principle of mixed member proportional representation. 

We are merely saying that we should shelve this for the time being due to various reasons such as cost implications and others, and that this matter be reflected upon by the Zambian people either through a referendum or any other means. So, this is not the end of this principle of mixed member proportional representation. For now, we are merely shelving it for further consultation and reflection. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that the Memorandum on page 1, in paragraph (f), be amended by the deletion of the words “mixed member proportional representation” and the substitution therefor of the words “first-past-the-post”; and in paragraph (i) by the deletion of the words “and the appointment of Parliamentary Secretaries”; and on page 2(i) by the deletion of paragraph (k); and (ii) by the renumbering of paragraphs (l), (m), (n), (o), (p), (q), (r), (s) and (t) as paragraphs (k), (l), (m), (n), (o), (p), (q), (r) and (s) respectively, put and the House voted. 

Ayes – (110)

Mrs E. Banda 
Mr I. Banda 
Mr N. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col Chanda 
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya 
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala 
Mr Chishimba
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs A. Chungu 
Mr S. Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi 
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu 
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya 
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga 
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema 
Col. Kaunda 
Ms Kawandami
Mr Kazabu
Ms Kazunga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda 
Dr E. Lungu 
Col. J. Lungu 
Prof. Luo 
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama Mushili
Mr Malama Mwimba
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande 
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata 
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda 
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale 
Mr Mutati 
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali 
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba 
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala 
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ng’imbu
Mr P. A. Ngoma 
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr J. T. Phiri 
Mr Sampa
Mr Sata
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Siamunene
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Tembo
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina 
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (39)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Livune
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Ms Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Pande
Mr Phiri
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shakafuswa
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (01)

Ms Imenda

Amendment agreed to. Memorandum amended accordingly. 

Memorandum, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

 Interruptions!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There must be order. If there is no order, business cannot be transacted. Let there be order. 

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I have been a Member of this House for nine years now. Today, for the first time in my nine years of being in this House, the voting results seem to be taking long to be broadcast. 

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: That is the truth. 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Let him get the guidance that he seeks. You may proceed, Hon. Nkombo.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I am sure you agree with me that in the first instance that we voted today, it took long for the results to come out. The same thing happened when we voted for the second time. This gives me the impression that there is a malfunction of the system.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, setting aside what happened in the last two times that we voted, should this persist, would you consider that we vote through a secret ballot? 

Laughter 

Mr Kambwili: Awe!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

As a matter of fact, there is no secret ballot because the “noes” use one door and the “ayes” use the other. So, we are able to see who is doing what. Anyway, the guidance is that we shall proceed to vote electronically. This is the way to go. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir. 

The Deputy Chairperson: I hope that we shall not descend into endless requests for guidance. Hon. Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha, you have your point of order.

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, when you call for any debate …

Mr Kambwili interjected. 

Laughter 

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha: … and an hon. Member stands up to debate, will you stop him? If you stop that hon. Member, you are infringing on his/her right to debate. So, do not call for further debate. 

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, we have received a list of amendments. The clause, which has raised all these issues deals with the preamble. When I called for debate, your body language suggested that you were not sure. 

Anyway, the point is that there is no amendment to the preamble and Short Title. In fact, if you look at precedent, the Short Title is never debated. Practice also guides us that where there are no amendments, we rarely discuss. Those are the rules and you people have been here long enough to know them. So, nothing new is being invented now. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

At the rate we are going, I will use my discretion to ensure that we make progress. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: There is an issue here which I want to raise.  

The Deputy Chairperson: You have the Floor. After that, I will move on. 

Mr Mwiimbu: I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister of Justice stood up, he proposed an amendment in paragraph (f), which provides for representation of the people through a majoritarian electoral system of electing the President of the Republic and a mixed member proportional representation system of electing Members of Parliament. He said he would withdraw this not because the Government does not want it. The debate on the Floor of this House was on the mixed member proportional representation system of electing Members of Parliament. The other amendment on Page 2 paragraph 1 is different. Nobody debated it because we were debating one item, which is mixed member proportional representation. The other item, which we have not debated, relates to provincial assemblies. The two items are different.

The Deputy Chairperson: The guidance is very simple. When you debate, you choose what item to debate. 

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am giving guidance and I am not shy to give it. When the hon. Minister was called upon, he moved the amendment as per the documents circulated, meaning that everything falling under the Memorandum came under discussion. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: It was up to you to decide whether to debate all the amendments or one item as we normally do.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Clauses 2 and 3(1)(2)(3) and (4) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! 

Let us take these proceedings seriously. The people who sent us here expect us to be serious about our deliberations.

Clause 3(5) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You will not score points by delaying the proceedings unnecessarily and for no justifiable cause. Be that as it may, I will make sure that you are given an opportunity to speak. 

Hon. UPND Members rose.

The Deputy Chairperson: We must guide each other. You should sit down when you are being guided.

Mr Mwila: Can you sit down!

The Deputy Chairperson: We must be serious about the Business of the House. I am not suggesting that we are not serious, but that we rarely debate unless there is an amendment. All of us were given the opportunity to come up with amendments if we wanted to, but this has not been done. I am merely guiding the House. We have a duty to guide each other. This has been the practice from time immemorial. 

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, you will forgive me for interrupting your guidance. I want to say that we are here on behalf of the people we are representing. This document is not the Constitution of Zambia. It is the Draft Constitution of Zambia. So, I believe this is not the final copy. 

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, let the hon. Member make his point without unnecessary intervention. Let us be civil with one another. Let us learn to listen to one another. 

Proceed, hon. Member.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I am holding two amendments that have been suggested by the Patriotic Front Government and not us.  

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we now have to contribute ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, please!

Mr Miyutu: … so that our debates can become part of this document. That is my belief.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Now, what point are you making?

Mr Miyutu: Sir, at the point when you say, “Any debate, any objection”, I take it that those who have something to say can …

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I need your protection.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us allow the hon. Member to make his point. I know he is about to wind up.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, if we were to go through the verbatim of the debate by the hon. Minister, we would learn that he actually talked about mixed member proportional representation. This allows people to contribute. Therefore, a chance must be accorded to us to contribute to the debate on the Floor. If we keep quiet, it will mean that everything has been approved. What is our role in this House then? Why should we sit in this House if we are not debating?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I think we need more clarification so that we …

The Deputy Chairperson: The clarification is that there is Article 68 which deals with mixed member proportional representation. When we reach it, you will be allowed all the opportunity to debate the way you want.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: You see, you have been given guidance that there is Article 68 in this same document. When we come to Article 68, the hon. Minister will move an amendment and you will be allowed to debate. 

Interruptions

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I seek further clarification.

The Deputy Chairperson: I have a duty to ensure that we make progress.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Clause 3(6) ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair)

(Progress reported)
______

The House adjourned at 1918 hours until 1430 hours on 10th December, 2015.