Wednesday, 25th November, 2015

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

 STATUS OF FREEDOMS OF EXPRESSION, MOVEMENT AND ASSEMBLY IN ZAMBIA 

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mwila): Mr Speaker, on 19th November, 2015, you directed my office to present a ministerial statement to this House on the status of the freedoms of expression, movement and assembly in the Republic of Zambia. Your directive was as a result of a point of order raised by the Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central Parliamentary Constituency, Hon. Request Muntanga, in which he alleged that the freedoms of expression, movement and assembly were being infringed upon by the law enforcement agencies in Zambia. Hon. Muntanga’s allegations arose from the clashes that occurred around 10 hours on 18th November, 2015, in Cha Cha Cha Township, Kitwe, between the supporters of the United Party for National Development (UPND) and suspected supporters of the Patriotic Front (PF).                         

Sir, to put the record straight, it is important to make reference to the political activities of the UPND on the Copperbelt in the last few weeks, particularly between 16th and 22nd November, 2015. 

Sir, on 11th November, 2015, the UPND notified the Zambia Police Force on the Copperbelt of its intention to conduct political activities in the province, including public rallies. On 13th November, 2015, the Copperbelt Police Command wrote to the UPND leadership, informing them that owing to other commitments, the police was not in a position to provide security to any political programmes on the Copperbelt during the month of November, 2015. Therefore, the police advised the UPND leadership to postpone their political programmes on the Copperbelt to December, 2015. The police also reminded the UPND leadership to conduct their political activities in neutral venues as opposed to markets and bus stations so as to enable the police provide adequate security. 

Mr Speaker, despite the professional advice rendered to the UPND leadership by the Police Command on the Copperbelt, the UPND President and his entourage arrived in Ndola on 16th November, 2015, to embark on his political programme. He addressed a gathering at 1300 hours at the UPND offices on Makoli Avenue, and featured on Sun FM. In the evening, the UPND President could not hold a planned fundraising dinner as the venue, the Savoy Hotel, was not available to host the event. On 17th November, the UPND President and his entourage went to Chililabombwe where he officially opened the UPND offices. In the evening, the UPND President addressed congregants at the Life Gospel Church which is ministered by Bishop Kazhila, and solicited their political support. On 18th November, 2015, at about 1000 hours, the UPND supporters gathered at the UPND offices in Cha Cha Cha Township in Kitwe. However, prior to the arrival of the UPND leadership, some unknown people disrupted the gathering at the UPND offices, resulting in clashes between the UPND supporters and the intruders. About ten UPND supporters were injured, with two of them sustaining serious injuries. 

Sir, the police learnt of the clashes at the Cha Cha Cha UPND offices in Kitwe about thirty minutes into the clashes and dispatched officers to end the violence. Upon arrival at the UPND offices, a mob of UPND supporters threw stones at the officers. As a result, the police apprehended six unruly UPND supporters for conduct likely to cause a breach of peace. To bring the situation under control, the police also dispersed everyone from the UPND offices. 

Mr Speaker, on 18th November, 2015, at about 1430 hours in Luanshya, the police received a report that some UPND supporters had gathered at the Old Antelope Shop in the Second Class trading area where they expected their President to address them. The police rushed to the area and dispersed the crowd to avoid a breakdown of public order in the town. In the process, seven suspects were arrested for conduct likely to cause a breach of peace. At about 1600 hours, the UPND President arrived at the Second Class trading area of Luanshya and tried to hold a public meeting. The police dispersed the crowd and arrested twenty-six people. One police officer was injured during the fracas that ensued between the police and the UPND supporters.

Mr Nkombo: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Sir, all the people who were arrested for conduct likely to cause a breach of peace in Kitwe and Luanshya were released by 19th November, 2015, upon payment of admission of guilt fines. 

Mr Speaker, I have given a comprehensive account of the political activities of the UPND on the Copperbelt between 11th November and 18th November, 2015, in order to lay bare their unlawful conduct and claims that the law enforcement agencies denied them the enjoyment of freedom of expression, movement and assembly, as alleged by Hon. Muntanga in his point of order. 

Sir, my Government remains committed to the rule of law and to upholding the fundamental freedoms of all citizens. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: Question in Kazungula! 

Laughter 

Mr Mwila: Sir, although the UPND leadership disregarded the professional advice of the police to postpone their political programmes on the Copperbelt to December, the police did not prevent them from enjoying their fundamental rights in line with the law. The UPND President, for example, was able to travel to different towns on the Copperbelt without any hindrance. He even featured on Sun FM and held indoor meetings without interference. The police only intervened in cases where the UPND assemblies led to a breach of public order or where there was potential breach peace. 

Mr Speaker, the Public Order Act exists to regulate public gatherings and ensure that we all go about our business in peace. The Act requires that the police be notified so that they can provide security advice and make personnel available to protect us from others who may not share our political beliefs and aspirations. It was, therefore, wrong for the UPND leadership to ignore the police’s advice on the security situation on the Copperbelt. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: We are used to those questions.

Laughter 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I, therefore, call upon all political leaders to work within the law because all that the police are interested in is to ensure that they maintain law and order, and that there is peace in the country at all times. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, it is strange that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is protecting the people who attacked our group by refusing to identify them. The hon. Minister has a tendency of using the terms “suspected” or “unknown” when Patriotic Front (PF) cadres are involved in violence. This will not solve the problem. 

First and foremost, as United Party for National Development (UPND), we are against any form of violence. 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, …

Mr Muntanga: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kalomo Central, I understand fully the context of this issue. Nonetheless, let us follow the procedure of the House. This is time for questions on points of clarification. So, if you make a long-winded preface, we shall have challenges. Ask a question on points of clarification. This is what is required of you. 

Mr Muntanga: I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Speaker, when I raised my point of order, I brought a letter to this House that read, Refusal to Grant Permission to go to the Copperbelt”. The letter stated that the UPND could not carry out any political activity, which prompted us to apply for a second permit.  Hon. Minister, could you state the reasons the UPND was stopped from going to the Copperbelt to carry out political activities for a whole month? 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the Public Order Act is very clear. The UPND have the right to inform the police about their public gatherings so that they provide security. This is the reason the Police Command advised the UPND to reschedule their programme to December. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr Livune (Katombola): I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the challenge of identifying the perpetrators of the violence in Kitwe has been thrown to us. 

Mr Speaker, on several occasions, you have guided that we should not mention people’s names in our debates. Will it be in order for us to name the Patriotic Front (PF) members whose vehicles transported the perpetrators of the violence to Kitwe so that we rest this matter? I will need your serious ruling, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the same logic, which is linked to that rule, still prevails even in this circumstance. The logic is that you have your own sources of information, which I will not question. However, if you name those people, and assuming you are wrong, it puts them in a predicament. 

It is unfortunate that I have to make this ruling before the end of the question/answer session. However, if you have information that can assist in identifying those people, the police are available to take care of that. Do not think that as a House, we should now dwell and delve into matters that relate to individuals because there will be contests. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: There are agencies that are charged with the responsibility of investigating these matters. So, in a word, I would rather we do not name any individuals. 

Hon. Member for Katombola, you may proceed. 

Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister had no problems identifying the other group as United Party for National Development (UPND). Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, with the professional officers in your ministry, you should be able to know the other group that was involved in the attack. If it was not the Patriotic Front (PF), could you state who it was? 

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I have stated on the Floor of this House that suspected PF cadres were involved. The reason I said, “suspected” is that the police are still investigating the matter. 

Mr Livune: Ah!

Mr Mwila: They are not sure of who attacked the UPND members. So, once the investigations have been concluded, we shall inform the nation.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

This is the last point of order I am permitting.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Mm!

Mr Speaker: I will allow questions and not points of order. Continue, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I am compelled to raise this point of order. Later this afternoon, the House will deliberate on the most important issue affecting the lives of people whose aspirations we represent in this House. 

Sir, when I was driving into the precincts of Parliament, I found that the police and paramilitary police officers had cordoned off the access point to the Assembly and were not allowing entry to the people who wished to witness the proceedings of the day. 

Interruptions

Mr Mushanga: What about the people in the galleries?

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I stopped to make an inquiry of what was taking place and one of your officers told me, in no uncertain terms, that the civil society had been blocked from coming into the Chamber. When I asked why, he told me that it is because they have been instructed to do so.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: Sir, as the peoples representatives, are we in order to bar them from coming into this Chamber to witness how we debate issues relating to their lives? I seek your ruling on this matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that I have received a report that the officers have been positioned, but not for the reasons that you have advanced, namely that there could be some disturbances outside the precincts. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Speaker: Can the hon. Member for Senanga proceed.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the professional advice from the police was that the United Party for National Development (UPND) President should not to go to the Copperbelt. However, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning came to this House and told us that the situation on the Copperbelt was volatile. What could have caused the volatility on the Copperbelt?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, I have stated that the Public Order Act is straightforward. Once the police has been notified of an event, their role is to give advice on security. In this case, the UPND was advised not to proceed with their programmes until December. The police did not deny them permission.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Were you present when I made an announcement? 

Mr Mufalali: But he has not answered my question.

Mr Speaker: We always advise that you follow-up with a question. If you have exhausted your slot, there are colleagues who can ask on your behalf.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed the House that the police advised that we should only hold indoor meetings.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let the hon. Member proceed in silence.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the hon. Minister is aware that our secretariat is not a public place. It is a private neutral place that belongs to the United Party for National Development (UPND). We also have offices in other towns on the Copperbelt.

Mr Muntanga: Everywhere.

Mr Mwiimbu: Why is it that the police, in collaboration with the Patriotic Front (PF), attacked our members at our offices where the police did not object to our having meetings? Why did they attack our members?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member has raised two or three questions. However, investigations have been instituted into the attack. Once the investigations have been completed, we shall inform the nation. The President of the UPND was allowed to hold indoor meetings and he also appeared on two radio stations. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, it is surprising that the hon. Minister can say that the President of the United Party for National Development (UPND) was allowed to talk on radio when it is part of his inherent rights.

Sir, have you not observed that the sand on which the Patriotic Front (PF) stands is shifting? By the way, you are abusing the police who are failing to arrest the known people as you did during the Solwezi West By-election where you were quick to arrest the UPND members. Why are you failing to arrest your friends whom you know by name and whose places of residence are known to you?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to say that the people the hon. Member is referring to are not my friends. I have stated in this House that investigations into this matter have been instituted. Once the investigations have been completed, we shall inform the nation and arrests will be made.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, we have been told on the Floor of this House that the United Party for National Development (UPND) were not supposed to hold meetings on the Copperbelt because of the bad economic situation there. However, the hon. Minister is now saying that it was due to security reasons that the UPND meetings were not allowed to take place. Could you, please, clarify this. Which is which?

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Speaker: Order, hon. Minister!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the UPND was advised that it could only go to the Copperbelt in December due to the security situation on the Copperbelt. 

Sir, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu is a lawyer and he understands the Public Order Act. There is a procedure to be followed.  So, if the police object ...

Mr Speaker: I am a bit uncomfortable that you have started addressing Hon. Mwiimbu.

Mr Mwila: I am sorry, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: He has asked his question and sat down. The question on the Floor is by the hon.  Member for Lukulu West. So, let us confine ourselves to the question from Lukulu West.

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the procedure is that the UPND was supposed to notify the police like it did. If the police objects to the notification, it has the right to appeal to the hon. Minister. If the hon. Minister objects, then, it can go to court.

I thank you, Sir. 

Ms Lubezhi (Namwala): Mr Speaker, why is it that the Patriotic Front (PF) President, who is also the Republican President, is ‘globetrotting’ Zambia, but you are refusing other presidents to ‘globetrot’ Zambia as well?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member would like to find out. Give her an opportunity to do so. 

Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, the President of the UPND is a leader of a political party just like Messrs Chipimo, Cosmo Mumba ...

Laughter 

Hon. Government Members: Muliokela! 

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwila: ... and, of course, Mr Muliokela.

Laughter 

Mr Mwila: President Edgar Lungu is the Republican President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: He will be President up to 2016.

Hon. Government Members: And beyond!

Mr Mwila: All the hon. Members of Parliament are aware that the President has his own security from State House while the UPND President does not have security from the Government. That is what makes the difference.

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, when he goes to the Copperbelt or Southern provinces, he depends on the police in the provinces. To the contrary, President Edgar Lungu has his security from State House. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Sir, following the visit of the UPND leader to the Copperbelt, the Kamfinsa Mobile Commanding Officer, Mr Mweemba, and the Deputy Operations Officer, Mrs Mwiimbu, were dismissed. Further, a number of officers from the Zambia Police Force and other Government institutions and parastatals, who belong to certain ethnic groups that are perceived to be pro-UPND, are being dismissed every day. Your President, Mr Lungu, has been talking about …
Hon. Government Members: Question!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Let us have some order.

Mr Mweetwa: Your President, Mr Lungu, has been talking about reconciliation …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Question!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Mweetwa: Your President, Mr Lungu, has been talking about reconciliation …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Question!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, sit down.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: Let us have some order! 

That is not how we conduct business in this House. Let us not be emotive. We are national leaders. This House is the epicentre of Zambian politics. Let us honour it, hon. Minister.

Hon. Member for Choma Central, please, wind up your question quickly.

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, before I was disturbed, I was saying that your President, Mr Lungu, …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mweetwa: … called for reconciliation …

Mr Speaker: What is your question?

Mr Mweetwa: … using the motto of One Zambia, One Nation.

Mr Livune: They are disturbing him, Sir.
Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, they are now persecuting the citizens whom they represent …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Katombola, can you leave the Assembly Chamber until tomorrow.

Mr Livune left the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Continue, hon. Member for Choma Central.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, I was saying that we have had fifty-one years of Independence. Are they not embarrassed and ashamed that they are involved in these atrocious acts of persecuting the people they purport to lead using the motto of One Zambia, One Nation?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That question is not related to the ministerial statement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, I would like to seek clarification from the hon. Minister. He talked about the professional advice that the Zambia Police Force gave to the United Party for National Development (UPND) against holding meetings on the Copperbelt. I would like to find out if the advice was given before or after Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s decree that no meetings should take place on the Copperbelt because of the volatile situation there. If it was given after the directive, was the police not merely executing what Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning had directed?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, it was way before the UPND President went to the Copperbelt.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the police will carry out investigations on this matter. How long are they going to take to carry out the investigations? I have a picture of a person who was shot by a police officer in Mongu. What is the hon. Minister going to do about the police officer who shot a United Party for National Development (UPND)  cadre for simply raising the UPND symbol?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Could the hon. Minister limit himself to the first part of the question which is relevant, namely how long will the investigations take?

Mr Mwila: Mr Speaker, firstly, the police operate independently without any interference from us. So, once the investigations have been concluded, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chikankata will be informed.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

KALABO/SIKONGO ROAD

185. Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when the construction of the Kalabo/Sikongo Road up to the Angolan Border would commence; and

(b)    what had caused the delay in commencing the project 

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, as stated last month, works on the Kalabo/Sikongo Road are scheduled to commence in the first quarter of next year upon completing the procurement process for the recruitment of a contractor.

Sir, the delays were encountered during the execution of the designs for the works.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, since the road is in a bad state, is the hon. Minister going to liaise with the hon. Minister of Defence to allow the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to gravel it?

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, to the best of my knowledge, the ZNS has a countrywide programme of that nature. If the Kalabo/Sikongo Road is submitted to the Provincial Administration, it will be worked on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, the Kalabo/Sikongo Road is an important road in Kalabo. We have been given a lot of answers relating to this project. Previously, the hon. Minister stated that the contractor would be on site by June, 2015. Thereafter, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing stated that the contractor was on site. However, the hon. Minister has just stated that the contractor will be on site in the first quarter of 2016. When will a credible answer on when works on the Kalabo/Sikongo Road be given?

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, in response to the credible question by Hon. Miyutu last month, we gave a credible response which still stands. The works will commence in the first quarter of 2016.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I would like to be educated on how the designs of the works caused the delay?

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, time and again, we have stated on the Floor of the House that the project is funded by four financiers, that we have to seek a no objection from all the four financiers at every stage and that we have had problems in receiving the no objection from the four financiers in good time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the construction of the road will commence in 2016. I would like to know the specific month.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, there are three months in the first quarter of 2016. Therefore, the construction of the road will commence in one of the three months.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu west): Mr Speaker, this is just a rider to the other questions. The hon. Minister has said that the four financiers have to agree for the construction of the road to commence. With the credible answer that has been given, which states that the road construction will commence in the first quarter of 2016, have the four financiers already agreed or the Government will come back to inform this House that one financier did not agree?

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, the Government is not in the habit of giving excuses to the House. We are now confident that the serious hurdles have been overcome. Therefore, the process is advanced, major agreements have been reached and works will commence in the first quarter of 2016.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sianga (Sesheke Central): Mr Speaker, the Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project is concentrated in Lusaka. Could the hon. Minister tell this House and the nation how many roads have connected Zambia to other countries.

 Mr Speaker: Order!
I do not know how that question is related to the Question under consideration because we are talking about the Kalabo/Sikongo Road.

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, is there any road similar to the Kalabo/Sikongo Road, which has been connected to any country under the Link Zambia 8,000 Kilometre Road Project?

Laughter

 The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mukanga): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member has travelled by road to Kalabo, he would agree with me that the Mongu/Kalabo Road is the most expensive road south of the Equator. Therefore, when the Government talks about equity in the distribution of projects, the Mongu/Kalabo Road is one of them because this road is very expensive to construct. Therefore, the Western Province should be appreciative.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

FUEL FILLING STATION IN MPOROKOSO

186. Prof. Willombe (Mporokoso) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a)    when the construction of a fuel filling station in Mporokoso District would commence;

(b)    why contracts to construct the fuel filling station in Luwingu and Mporokoso districts were awarded to one contractor;

(c)    what the time frame  for the completion of each project was; and

(d)    what the cost of each  project was.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Zulu): Mr Speaker, the construction of the filling station in Mporokoso District will commence in 2016. The contracts to construct fuel filling stations in Luwingu and Mporokoso districts were awarded to one contractor because the contractor was the best evaluated bidder for both filling stations. The ministry advertised in the print media for the construction of filling stations in Luwingu and Mporokoso. Contractors were at liberty to bid for the construction of both filling stations.

Sir, the time frame for the completion of each project is six months on condition that all the financial obligations are met by the clients as agreed. However, in an event that the financial obligations are not met accordingly, the project completion period is expected to be longer than six months.

Mr Speaker, the filling station in Luwingu will cost K4,123,779.75 while the one in Mporokoso will cost K4,243,038.96.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Prof. Willombe rose.

Mr Speaker: Order!

 I hope this time around Prof. Willombe has a question because last time, he did not have a follow-up question. If the hon. Member has no question, please, do not proceed.

Laughter

Prof. Willombe: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. 

Sir, consideration should have been given to the fact that with the division of labour, the ministry can benefit in terms of timing for the projects. When projects are started simultaneously by different contractors, they are completed on time. Did the ministry take into account the fact that should the contractor have challenges, the Luwingu project will spill over int the time the stipulated time for the commencement of the Mporokoso project? 

 Mr Ndalamei: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, yes, we did.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hardworking hon. Minister if the ministry can support any person with a desire to put up a filling station in the place where there is nothing at all. If the answer is yes, how is it done?

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, time and again, the Government has said that the ministry constructs two filling stations every year, depending on the availability of funds. The ministry does not give funds to individuals to construct filling stations.

 I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that it would take a few more months before the construction of the fuel filling station is completed. The distance between Mporokoso and the nearest filling station is about 176 km. A return trip is about 350 km, which is almost a full tank of fuel wasted. Is it possible for the Government departments in Mporokoso to liaise with the Government Stores to store some fuel in Mporokoso in order to avoid wastage of money by going to refuel in Kasama?

 Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, that is a good proposal by the hon. Member. I was in Mporokoso and Luwingu to launch this programme. So, it is true that Mporokoso and Luwingu urgently need a filling station just like any other place in the country. The only problem is funding. As a ministry, we shall be very happy to construct a fuel filling station in Mporokoso. Unfortunately, we cannot do that because of a lack of finances. As to whether we can do what the hon. Member has suggested, I do not think that the Government can go into such an arrangement. 

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.        

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I recall the hon. Minister saying that the Government was going to construct fuel filling stations in places that could not be reached by the private sector. One such place is Mporokoso. Since the private sector cannot reach places like Mporokoso and the Government has taken up the challenge of constructing fuel filling stations in such places, how, then, is it going to manage to run the filling stations? I ask in view of the fact that the Government only has intentions of putting up filling stations and leaving them for the private sector to run. So, since the private sector is unable to reach those faraway places, do you think they will accept to go and run filling stations in places like Mporokoso?

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, when we complete the construction of the filling stations, we shall hand them over to the local communities to run as co-operatives. So, the local communities will be expected to run the filling stations.

Mr Namulambe: Empowering them!

Mr Zulu: Like Hon. Namulambe has said, that will be empowering the local people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister said that there is a contractor who was awarded the contract to construct filling stations in Mporokoso and Luwingu districts. Is the hon. Deputy Minister able to state the name of the contractor?

Mr Zulu: Mr Speaker, I am not able to do that at the moment, but I can get that information for the hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir.

________

BILLS

SECOND READINGS

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA BILL, 2015

The Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, there comes a time in the life of a nation when a people must stand up and take a gigantic step forward. As a people, we have been grappling with the Constitution-making process for years. ConstitutionReview Commissions have come and gone, and many resources have been spent on this process, yet a Constitution that would stand the test of time still continues to elude us. One admirable trait about Zambians is the ability to maintain persistence of purpose. We do not, and should never, throw our arms in the air in despair and give up. We owe it not only to ourselves, but more so to posterity, that is, generations to come, to continuously strive to make Zambia a better place for all. The time to take that place is nigh.

Sir, on different occasions, I have shared with this august House why we, on this side of the House, proposed to take this course of action of bringing the Constitution to Parliament for adoption rather than to a referendum. There are three grounds on which we based our decision.

First and foremost, it is the cost element. A referendum, in itself, is an election, and holding a stand-alone referendum would have meant holding two major elections in one year. As we are all aware, our fiscal space is severely constrained to support two major elections. That is why we considered it financially prudent to bring the Constitution Bill to this House and then, subject the Bill of Rights to a referendum, as is required by law, to be held concurrently with the Tripartite Elections in 2016.

Mr Speaker, secondly, we decided to bring the whole document to this House to determine the non-contentious clauses rather than us, on your right, sitting on our own. We were of the view that doing so on our own would have amounted to producing a White Paper. As hon. Members may recall, the production of white papers have, in the past, contributed to the derailment of the Constitution-making process. To be successful, the Constitution development must involve all stakeholders, which leads me to the third ground.

Sir, admittedly, in the Patriotic Front Manifesto, we advocated for a referendum as the mode of adopting the Constitution. There is no doubt that the best manifestation of the expression of the will of the people on an issue is through a direct vote of all voters in a referendum. I repeat, on an issue. In other words, a referendum is the most democratic way of deciding single issues. For example, if we, here in Zambia, want to decide whether to maintain or abolish the death penalty, a referendum will provide the Zambian people with the most democratic and direct say in the matter. That would be the best expression of the will of the people on the death penalty. 

Mr Speaker, similarly, on one hand, the Bill of Rights is one such issue on which the people can decide in a referendum. On the other hand, a Constitution is not a single issue, but a complex, multi-dimensional document consisting of a multitude of diverse issues. On reflection, we, like many Zambians, came to the realisation that on multi-dimensional issues like the Constitution, a referendum as the mode for decision-making, faces serious practical challenges.

Sir, the Draft Constitution before us consists of 322 clauses. Unless and until we can find a practical way of determining the will of the people on each of the clauses, a yes or no vote to the whole document cannot reflect the true will of the voter on the ground. It is not possible for a voters to agree on all the 322 clauses. To request the voter to say either, “yes” or “no” to a whole document when he/she may accept some clauses and reject others, places the voter in a serious dilemma. A yes or no vote on the whole document would not be a true reflection of the will of the people.

Mr Speaker, in view of the uncertainty of the outcome of the Referendum, we are of the view that representative democracy where an elected group expresses the will of the people they represent is the most practical and democratic means of adopting the Constitution.

Sir, representative democracy is the bastion of any democratic dispensation and is of universal application. Provided we stay focused and do not sacrifice this process before us on the altar of partisan objectives, I have the utmost confidence in the ability of hon. Members to express the will of the Zambian people whom they represent in this House.

Mr Speaker, in view of what I have said, if the representatives of the Zambian people here assembled can rise to the occasion and put the interest of the Zambian people before partisan interests, I have no doubt at all that we are on the threshold of going into frontiers we have not been before in so far as constitution development in Zambia is concerned.

Mr Speaker, due to the fact that there are clauses in the draft , which can be salvaged in order to push our democratic agenda forward as a nation, I must, with the greatest respect, beg to differ with the recommendation of your Committee that the Bill be withdrawn. Rather, we are of the view that we proceed with it and enact the non-contentious clauses in the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: As we are all aware, a lot of resources, time and effort have gone into this process. We shall be doing a great disservice to the Zambian people, having reached, thus far, to ‘throw out the baby with the bath water’. Therefore, I urge this august House to support the Bill so that we not only make progress, but are also seen to be making progress.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mweetwa (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 15th October, 2015, the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2015, was referred to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs for scrutiny.

Mr Speaker, let me start by drawing the attention of this august House to the inseparable link between the Constitution of Zambia Bill and the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015. As the House is aware, the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, is a schedule to the Constitution of Zambia Bill. Therefore, the decision of the Committee on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015 has a bearing on the Constitution of Zambia Bill. It is against this background that I sincerely hope that hon. Members have had occasion to read the reports on both Bills.

Mr Speaker, your Committee notes that the Constitution of Zambia Bill provides for the printing and publishing of the Constitution; savings and transitional provisions of the existing State organs, State institutions, offices and laws; and the succession to assets, rights, liabilities, obligations and legal proceedings.

Mr Speaker, your Committee invited several stakeholders who rendered both written and oral submissions on the Bill. I wish to report to the House that none of the witnesses who appeared before your Committee raised any concern or issue as the Bill was generally viewed to be mainly concerned with transitional rather than substantive provisions. In agreeing with the witnesses, your Committee observes that the Bill is consequential to the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, and its enactment is essential to the coming into effect and publication of the amended Constitution.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia Bill are non-controversial and the Committee would have ordinarily been recommending its support by this House. However, given that the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee failed to reach consensus on a number of critical issues in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015. Your Committee recommends that the Constitution of Zambia Bill be withdrawn.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for giving me the opportunity to debate this important Bill. Firstly, I would like to state that I am confused after hearing the statements of the hon. Minister of Justice and the Chairperson of your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs.

Mr Speaker, as we address this matter, we must be allowed to fully express ourselves. However, we need to have national interest at heart and be above partisan politics. As we are in a democracy, which is representive in nature, let us perform our task this afternoon according to the will of the people and keep the interest of the Zambians at heart as we do so.  

 Mr Speaker, since Independence, Zambia has had four Constitution Review Commissions. The first one was the Chona Constitution Review Commission of 1972. Among other things, the purpose of this commission was to change the Constitution so that we moved from multi-partism to a One-party State. The second was the Mvunga Constitution Review Commission of 1991 which enabled us to revert to multi-partism from a One-party State. The third was the Mwanakatwe Constitution Review Commission of 1996. The fourth was the Mung’omba Constitution Review Commission, whose end result was the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). After the deliberations of the NCC, a Bill was brought before this House. I remember about ninety-one of us in this House voted in favour of that Bill. There were nineteen abstentions from the United Party for National Development (UPND) and the hon. Members from the Patriotic Front (PF) walked out. 

The main reason behind that was that those of us in the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government then, did not want the 50 per cent plus one majority vote and the rest of the hon. Members of Parliament were of the view that the issue of the 50 per cent plus one majority vote and the Presidential running mate were important. Of course, we had our own fears. So, we did not want to proceed that way. As a result, the Bill fell through on account of a lack of quorum to pass the Bill. Like the Chairperson of your Committee has stated, this Bill has a bearing on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill. So, the Bill failed on account of the threshold.

Mr Speaker, Zambians had been making submissions to all the Constitution Review Commissions. Governments then, had preference in regard to what they wanted to be included in the Constitution. I would say that we have lost quite colossal sums of money, as a country, in the Constitution Review Commissions. I think colossal sums of money have also been spent on the Technical Committee on Amending the Zambian Constitution. 

Mr Speaker, I have read through the report of your Committee, but it will be very difficult for me to explain to the people of Mpongwe and other citizens of this country why your Committee decided to urge the Government to withdraw this Bill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: I would have comfortably supported your Committee’s recommendation to have the Bill withdrawn if there were reasons given for this. The Chairperson of your Committee talked about the stakeholders not having reached consensus. It was difficult for the stakeholders to reach consensus because all the people who were invited made submissions on behalf of their organisations. I have noted that not all the stakeholders were invited to make submissions. For instance, the church mother bodies and other religious organisations have not been mentioned in the report of your Committee. Whether or not they came, I do not know. However, this is what I have picked from the report.

Mr Speaker, it may not be wise for anyone of us to suggest the withdrawal of the Bill because we may seem irrelevant in the eyes of the general public if the whole process is reduced to nothing.

Mr Speaker, when we debate the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, which is coming up for debate after this Bill has been passed, it will be important for us to discuss each clause. If it means us going into January next year, so be it, so that we get to understand and approve that which the people want. I do not mind much about the people who refused to make submissions before your Committee if at all they refused. However, all is not lost because all the Zambians have representatives here in Parliament. If there are any issues that they would like to submit for us to discuss, permission can be sought for us to use the Auditorium for this.

Mr Mufalali: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: The issue of the fifty per cent plus one majority vote is what made the MMD lose popularity and, eventually, the elections …

Mr Muchima: Hmm!

Mr Namulambe: … because we refused to accept what our colleagues had proposed. I was a member of the MMD in which I was Minister, a member of the National Executive Committee (NEC) and Chairperson for Elections.

Mr Chipungu: Yes!

Mr Namulambe: There were three prominent issues that the people wanted included in the Constitution. These were the 50 per cent plus one majority vote, the running mate, the appointment of Ministers from outside Parliament ...

Mr Mwimba H Malama: Yes!

Mr Namulambe: … and the dual citizenship clauses. These are the issues that came out prominently and that the people wanted included in the Constitution, but we were adamant at the time.

Mr Kasonso: What about now?

Mr Namulambe: Yes, I am talking in ‘reverse’. Now that I have learnt a lesson for being against what the people wanted, I would request that we do that which the people want.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: A bird in hand is better than two in the bush.

Interruptions

Mr Mwewa: Finshi alelanda? But achiyamba bwino.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, yesterday on Radio Phoenix …

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right.

Mr Namulambe: … the Non-governmental Organisations Co-ordinating Council (NGOCC) requested Members of Parliament to reject this Bill, but they did not give reasons for the Bill to be rejected. 
Mr Speaker, in the same vein, we have heard some people say that we should have subjected the whole document to a referendum. 

Sir, according to the press releases following the updates on your Committee’s meetings, some people were opposed to the issue of the 50 per cent plus one majority vote. Such people can campaign against the whole document on the basis that they do not want 50 per cent plus one majority vote. This can render all the 322 clauses in the document null and void, as the vote in a referendum is either yes or no. If we proceeded with this Bill, the Zambians might have some of the issues they have been pressing for included in the Constitution. That will be a better bird in hand than the so many birds there can be in the Referendum. 

Mr Speaker, it is high time people realised that when they elected us, Members of Parliament, they entrusted us with the responsibility to discharge certain functions on their behalf. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: When I say all of us, I mean all of us seated here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: We swore to defend and protect the Constitution.

Mr Pande: Hear, hear!

In Article 62 of the Constitution, Parliament is vested with the authority to enact laws. Therefore, whichever way we may want to take to enact a new Constitution, it will have to come before this House. My appeal to every hon. Member in the House is that we go ahead and debate each clause. We may touch the hearts of the people who want certain provisions in the current Constitution to pass. For instance, there have been arguments that the President has too much power in the current Constitution. I take it that those powers have been reduced in the Draft Constitution. What happens if we shoot down such clauses? Are we going to be in line with the feelings of that Zambian who made such a submission? It is for this reason that I request all hon. Members of this august House to go ahead ...

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let me make an announcement. Just pause, hon. Member for Mpongwe. I should have stated this earlier. 

Mr Speaker: Take a sit, hon. Member for Mazabuka Central.

Due to the seminal nature of this Bill, I will not allow points of order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Mpongwe may continue.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I request all hon. Members of this august House to reflect on their consciences and allow the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2015, to go through and debate the clauses that are provided in the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015. Without this Bill, the whole Constitution review process will be an exercise in futility. This is what happened in 2011 when we failed to pass the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2010, due to a lack of a quorum because, as the Government then, we were arrogant. We betrayed the people. I am, therefore, appealing to the hon. Members of the House to be responsible citizens. Let us consider how much money we have spent, as a country, on this process. This is the reason t I appeal that we support this Bill. 

Sir, your Committee has reserved the reasons for proposing the withdrawal of the Bill. I do not know them. I am simply requesting that all of us judge ourselves and support this Bill for the sake of the millions of Kwacha that we have spent, so far, on the Constitution-making process. Let the clauses that may fail fall through along the way because we would have debated them. Let the people who want to add more information sit with us. I, for one, am ready to sit with them. If the contributions of the people on some clauses can add value to the Constitution, I will support them. I will not be intimidated to do anything that is not in the interest of the Zambian people. As I debate, I am not looking at anything. For instance, I know that I have been called a rebel and so on and so forth. However, for the sake of the nation, let us make progress.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, please, deflect from debating yourself. You have been doing well, so far, by debating issues. 

You may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, this Bill will be progressive for the Zambian people. Let us keep some clauses that are progressive. I kneel before everyone in this House, ...

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mr Namulambe: ... urging them to support this Bill instead of withdrawing it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member merely used a figure of speech, which should not cause so much consternation.

To avert people standing constantly, I will proceed this way: I will have Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, who is Member for Nalikwanda, followed by the Member of Parliament for Monze Central, Hon. Mwiimbu. We will go into a political party circuit.

 By the way, the Whips have supplied me with a list of people to debate. I hope that those who want to debate have also been in touch with their respective Whips. They have taken responsibility, of course, with my blessing ...

Mrs Masebo: On a point of procedure, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I am not allowing points of order, hon. Member for Chongwe.

Interruptions

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I thank you for ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member would like to debate. Please, give him the opportunity to do so.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this rare opportunity to debate this important ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member for Nalikwanda needs to debate in silence. Let us be fair to him.

You may continue.

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I appreciate this opportunity given to me to debate this serious event that relates to our national affairs. Indeed, there comes a time in the history of a nation that a people have to decide to take a position on what is important for the life of the nation. Today is the day when our conscience, as hon. Members of Parliament, is being invoked to take a critical reflection on the direction of our nation. We have to make a conscious decision to look critically at the truth in terms of where we are going as a nation.

Mr Speaker, we are here today to discuss what we can possibly do as a Parliament about the will of the people. The subject matter, the Constitution of Zambia Bill, is an express reflection of the will of the people and, in as far as the will of the people goes, it is the supreme expression of how the people would like to be governed. This will of the people stands above everything else. It is above the Presidency, the Executive, Parliament, itself, and the Judiciary. Parliament is only there to protect and defend the will of the people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that being the case, the question that should come to mind is whether we are the right forum to discuss the will of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Prof. Lungwangwa: That is the most critical question which we have to discuss and seriously reflect on. This is the question which occupied other countries which went through the constitution-making process. For example, South Africa decided that the adoption of the will of the people, which is the Constitution, had to be done elsewhere other than Parliament. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, Kenya, like South Africa, also chose to decide the will of the people elsewhere other than Parliament. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: In the United States of America (USA), the will of the people was decided elsewhere other than Congress. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa. That is because there is what is called the invisible hand of manipulation or mutilation of the will of the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: If the Constitution of Zambia is allowed to be decided on the Floor of the House, the will of the people will be mutilated or muzzled through amendments. That is the fear which the people have about subjecting a very important and sacred document like this one to a House like this one which is partisan. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: If we subject the Constitution-making process to the invisible hand of manipulation through amendments, our conscience will not be clear. So, we all stand to be accused of having betrayed the people. That will be unacceptable. 

Mr Speaker, having said that, the question is: What, then, should we do? The truth is that we should stand by the will of the people ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... because the people are the source of the Constitution. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: The people are the repository of the Constitution. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: The people are the guardians of the Constitution. Therefore, if this House allows the Constitution, which is the will of the people, to be debated, and the amendments take place, we all stand accused of betraying the will of the people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, posterity will judge us harshly if we do that. Passing amendments in the Constitution is going to go against our resolve to uphold strong democratic tenets in this country. It is even questionable whether it is democratic to discuss the will of the people in this forum because the will of the people might be subjected to mutilation through amendments. This has been the concern of the previous Constitution-making commissions. The previous Constitution-making commissions failed us, as a people, because of amendments. Those leaders who held power previously acted deliberately to enforce amendments in the various Draft Constitutions, and that is why we are at this point. Fifty years after Independence, we are still debating the Constitution of Zambia because the Constitution-making process has failed in the past through the amendment process. Our colleagues in the Executive have not told us which clauses are non-contentious, and who said that they are non-contentious.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: Is it the people? We have been kept in the dark. We do not know the ghost in the mind of the Executive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: It is clear that they have a perception of the type of document they would like to see at the end of this process. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: All what we are being asked to do is legitimise the ghost in the mind of our colleagues ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Antonio: Look at them!

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... so that at the end of it all, they can come up with a pre-determined document. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Kaoma Central, please, check your emotions. I do not want to lose many hon. Members during this debate. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

It is not my desire to lose hon. Members. 

The hon. Member for Nalikwanda may continue. 

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I was saying that we do not know what is in the mind of our colleagues. We do not know the ghost in their minds. Probably, what we are being asked to do here is to simply legitimise the process so that the document which they have in their minds can get the stamp of legality as a consensus from all of us. That is very dangerous, in terms of how the future generations will perceive all of us. If the document which will come out of here is not the voice of the people, we all stand to be condemned for betraying the will of the people. The voice of the people is the voice of God. Our colleagues should have come out clearly on this issue. We should have had a lot of debate across various political parties and groupings prior to this stage in order to arrive at a consensus. Had this been done, we would have been in a more comfortable position now to discuss this process and to agree on it. As it is, however, we are very skeptical … 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: ... because the intentions of our colleagues are not known to all of us.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: This, in a way, is not acceptable. I hope that our colleagues in the Executive will be honest enough not to bring amendments to the Floor of this House, which will betray the voice ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and will of the people. We have heard that there are a number of clauses which the Executive is not happy with and would like them to fall through so that in the end, they give us a document that is theirs ... 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and not the people’s.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: I hope that this is not the way they will go and that they will be open about it. If they go that way, it will be counterproductive to our deeply-held democratic values, …

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … which are rooted in the aspirations of our people. 

Mr Speaker, it is my view, therefore, that those of us with a conscience stand by what the people want. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We should stand by what the people want which is clearly written in the Draft Constitution. I hope that the will of the people prevails at the end of the day. If that happens, then, we shall have a Constitution that will stand the test of time.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: I hope that our colleagues will not use this process to legitimise a Constitution that is in their minds, …

Mr Mbewe: Bwezapo apo!

Laughter 

Prof. Lungwangwa: … and that cannot stand the test of time. It will not be the living document that Zambians want to see. Further, it will not be a document emanating from our deeply-held democratic values. If this is the case, it becomes very difficult, from one’s conscious, to legitimise this process. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: The only way this process can be legitimised is if our colleagues are honest enough to tell us that they will not bring amendments on the Floor of this House, which will go against the will of the people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: That is the only way we shall feel part and parcel of this process. It is unfortunate, however, that this is not the direction our colleagues will take. Our colleagues intend to take a direction which will ultimately be a betrayal of the will of the people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Prof. Lungwangwa: We have a challenge …  

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours. 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Prof. Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, in the last few minutes of my debate, I would like to emphasise that our colleagues in the Executive do not take advantage of this process by using the arrogance of numbers to make amendments to the people’s will on the Floor of this House, as 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: … doing this will definitely be against the aspirations of our people. 

Secondly, the so-called non-contentious issues have not been spelt out. We do not know which issues are non-contentious, and who says that they are non-contentious. Clearly, this will amount to the betrayal of the people’s will. 

Furthermore, with deep commitment and due respect to your Committee, my plea is that we do not set a precedence where recommendations of your Committee are not respected by this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Prof. Lungwangwa: This is your Committee which we respect and hold so dearly. Therefore, I stand by your Committee’s resolution that this Bill be withdrawn in its entirety. 
I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Monze and Zambia, I would like to record my appreciation to your Committee for the able manner in which it interacted, deliberated and resolved this very important issue pertaining to the Constitution Bill, 2015. 

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to appreciate the views that have been expressed by my colleagues …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on my right!

I would like to follow these debates. If you want to converse, please, the doors are open. I would like to follow the debates. Continue, hon. Member for Monze Central. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to appreciate the views that have been expressed by my colleague, Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, who has ably debated the issue under consideration.

Sir, I am grateful to the people of Zambia because this is the second time that I am debating a similar Bill on the Floor of this House. The last time we debated this issue was in 2011. This particular Bill, in 2011, was defeated by no other than my colleagues on your right who walked out of this House in protest against the process of enacting a new Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I am aware that some of those who walked out are in this House today and I am aware of the views they expressed in this House and to the people of Zambia. I am cognisant of  the sentiments that were expressed by the Patriotic Front (PF) when they were in the Opposition and the guidance that was given by our dear Former President, the Late Mr Sata, on this process. At that time, the PF used to tell the House that the process protects content and because there was no protection of content, they were not going to be part and parcel of the enactment of a Constitution that does not have the blessing of the people of Zambia. They walked out through that door ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... and the process collapsed.

Mr Speaker, history is repeating itself. We are in this House today, debating the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2015 and I have no doubt in my mind that the main thrust of the arguments of the people of Zambia hinges on the process. The church mother bodies, non-governmental organisations (NGOS) and the people of Zambia have been crying for a law that protects content and our colleagues on your right have failed the people of Zambia in that respect.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no protection of content pertaining to this process. My fear has been heightened by the submissions of the hon. Minister of Justice and the comments made by the hon. Member for Mpongwe. 

Sir, the hon. Minister has told this House and the nation that there are certain clauses which they do not want in this Constitution and that here may be a process of amending the Bill that will come if we legitimise the process that they want. The people of Zambia have spoken so many times over the Constitutional-making process and their voices have been loud enough for us on your left to hear. We have heard the voice of the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are not going to legitimise the process of coming up with a Constitution which the PF and its Government want. We are not going to be a part of that process. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are aware of the deliberations that have been going on and what has been discussed in their caucuses pertaining to the clauses they want to amend. We are not going to legitimise their intentions. They may have the numbers, but we are not going to be part and parcel of that process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, we are aware, as Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has said, about the intentions of our colleagues on your right. They do not want the running mate clause, the 50 per cent plus one clause, the appointment of Cabinet outside Parliament, provincial assemblies and proportional representation.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, this is a very earnest debate. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the issues our colleagues do not want to see in the Constitution are the issues the people of Zambia have been crying for. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The issues that have made the people of Zambia spend so much money on the Constitution-making process are the issues that the PF do not want.

Sir, what has changed from the time the late President Sata passed away? President Sata was on record as having told the people of Zambia that he was going to give us a people-driven Constitution through a referendum.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: What has changed?

Mr Nkombo: Rupiah Banda!

Laughter 

Mr Mwiimbu: Is it the late President they did not like? Did they not like his ideas so much that now that he is gone they have decided to turn their backs against his intentions? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They are telling the people of Zambia that the late President was wrong and they are right. They have ‘somersaulted’ like an F16 Jet.

Laughter  

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are all aware that the PF Government started the process ...

Mr Mweetwa: Ninety days.

Mr Mwiimbu: ... when they came into power of coming up with a Constitution. They constituted a Technical Committee on Amending the Constitution of Zambia and ensured that there were assemblies in every district and province to endorse the document that they want to doctor today. That was their process. What has changed? All of us participated in that process together with our representatives in the constituencies and huge amounts of money were spent on that process. What has changed?

Sir, we are aware that the hon. Minister of Justice made assurances on the Floor of this House that they are not going to deviate from the process that was agreed on by the people of Zambia. When I talk about the Minister of Justice, I am talking about all the Ministers of Justice who have served under the PF Government, including the current President. What has changed today? Is it the power that has gotten to their heads that they have now forgotten the promises they made to our people and the promises that they made to you? They made the promise in this House. 

You gave them the authority to speak. They gave ministerial statements and are on record as having promised how they would proceed with this process. They assured the nation that before the Bill is tabled before this House, they would call for a meeting of all stakeholders so that they thrash out contentious issues. The hon. Minister of Justice has failed us …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … because he has not done that.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: He went further to say that before we could debate this Bill, he would call for a meeting in the Auditorium so that we could debate clause by clause and agree on how we would proceed, but he has not done that.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, he has ignored his own sentiments and pronouncements on the Floor of this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, we are representatives of the people and the process of a referendum is not unusual at all. I heard the hon. Minister of Justice say that if we let this process go to a referendum, some clauses will not be accepted.

Hon. UPND Members: How?

Mr Mwiimbu: If that is the position, then, I fear for the Bill of Rights because it will need to go through the same process. The Bill of Rights does not have one clause, but many clauses and the answer will be “yes” or ‘no”. In their mind, they are telling us that this particular Bill should be saved and the Bill of Rights should be lost. That is what they are telling us.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, by the way, we have to realise that the most important issues in the Constitution are not in this Bill which was brought to this House. The issues that affect the people of Zambia are in the Bill of Rights …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … which they have relegated and decided that it should be defeated, in their own words, through that process. Those are the issues the people of Zambia want. If they fear that the Referendum will be costly, and they are sincere and genuine, they should withdraw this Bill then present it together with the Bill of Rights and let the people of Zambia speak during the General Elections. That way, they would have reduced the cost. However, since they have sinister motives, …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they do not want the Bill of Rights and certain provisions in it to be enacted.

Mr Speaker, the Constitution is the most important law of the land. Yesterday, you chastised me because I was complaining about my rights, the rights of the people of Zambia and the rights of the United Party for national Development (UPND) …

Mr Speaker: No! Could you pause and take a seat.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: First of all, that is not the reason I chastised you.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I hope you were present. I do not want to go into a discourse with you. There is a copy of the ruling and it will clearly show why …

Mr Mwiimbu rose.

Mr Kampyongo: Sit down!

Mr Speaker: … I censured you.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Please, take time to read and reflect over it.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance.

Sir, the point I am driving at is that the issue of the violation of our rights as members of the UPND and public are as a result of the flawed Constitution and the absence of certain provisions in the current Bill of Rights that we have been crying for, for a long time.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, there is no way I will be part and parcel of enacting a law which does not include certain clauses in the Bill of Rights which protect my rights and the people of Zambia. The women of Zambia have been lamenting that their rights are being violated and they are not protected in the current Bill of Rights because there are some discriminatory clauses. However, they have been told that they will be happy in future …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … but, in the meantime, they should be content with the discrimination against them.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, that is why the women of Zambia and churches have called for a holistic approach to the Constitution-making process that will be acceptable to all the stakeholders. Although I am aware that they do not take good advice, I want to appeal to them that for their sake and the sake of all of us, this Bill must be rejected.

Sir, this is your Committee and the hon. Member of Parliament for Choma Central, who is the Chairperson of your Committee, represents you when he is making this particular report. I would be failing in my duty, and it would be immoral on my part, to reject your Committee’s report.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it will be disrespectful for us to start rejecting your Committee’s recommendations.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: If we did not respect your Committee, we would not have submitted our recommendations to it. However, since we, as your hon. Members of Parliament, respect your Committee, we shall go by the recommendation of your Committee …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … that this Bill be withdrawn so that there is consensus and the people of Zambia arrive at a process that is acceptable to all.

Finally, Mr Speaker, we must learn from history.

Mr Ndalamei: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The Kenyans learnt a bitter lesson. They struggled to come up with their Constitution and it took bloodshed to unite them. After the bloodshed, they decided to enact a Constitution which is acceptable. I am appealing to all of us in this House, together with the people outside this House, to seriously reflect on this process and have a common stance to come up with a Constitution that is acceptable and that will stand the test of time.

Sir, the PF may be in power today but, very soon, they will be out of power.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is a fact of life …

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Mwiimbu: … that they will not be in power forever.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: There will come a time when they will be out of power.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, those who were here are now on your right.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: However, I have no doubt that come October next year, those on the Front Bench will not be in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is a reminder.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I would like to urge all my hon. Colleagues to have a conscience and ensure that this Bill is voted against. Whether the Ruling Party will win or not, it is up to them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Lungu (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this chance to debate. I represent the people of Chama South and the entire population of Zambia. This is a very serious topic before us. Therefore, we need to make corrections and reflections. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Lungu: Sir, first and foremost, I want to correct the statement that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government were not responsible by not giving the people of Zambia the Constitution that can stand the test of time.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Lungu: Sir, the PF voted in the first part and the Motion was defeated. The then hon. Mr Speaker called for the second voting which resulted in the Opposition hon. Members walking out of the House. Therefore, no one can say that the PF were responsible because it was a question of principle.

 Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Dr Lungu: Sir, secondly, we have come a long way with this process. The PF boycotted the entire Constitution-making process. The hon. Opposition Members have been with us all along. We cannot come this far and spend a lot of resources on this process only to have you back track. You have ‘eaten a bit of the pie’ and that is when you are saying it does not taste good. That is not right.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I wish to commend the PF Government for bringing us together to discuss something which is pertinent to all Zambians. We are very passionate about this. I would like to appeal to my hon. Colleagues that my heart is with them. I would like to quote Psalm 119 ...

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

 Mr Speaker: Order!

 Can the hon. Member for Chama South take his seat. I am sure the hon. Member on the Floor is aware that he is not permitted to quote from scripture.

 You may continue.

 Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, I had wanted to emphasise that the Government has done well by bringing this Bill to the representatives of the people of Zambia. A lot of money and time has been spent on this process. So, hon. Colleagues, I am saying that at this stage, let us throw away partisan politics and put the interest of Zambia at heart. We should all support this Bill so that we make progress because a lot resources have been spent on this process. Actually, the hon. Minister has explained where we are coming from. It would not be good for us to withdraw the Bill considering the resources that have been put in. It involves a lot of money, energy and above all, a lot of resources.

Sir, although I know that we come from different backgrounds, I am sorry to say that in the world, there are different types of wisdom such as earthly wisdom, witchcraft wisdom and divine wisdom.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Dr Lungu: For us to make progress in this House, we need divine wisdom. We should be able to see beyond what we are seeing now. Actually, what we are debating now will make sense when we move a step further. That is what the Government, through the hon. Minister of Justice, is saying? Can this House agree, collectively, to pass this Bill so that if there are contentious clauses, we can come back and look at them step by step or one by one. Where we are going to agree, we shall agree and where we are going to disagree, we will know what to do. That is what this issue is all about. Therefore, we cannot be here wasting taxpayers’ money by voting against the Bill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Dr Lungu: Sir, that is not the way to go.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Lungu: I wish to passionately appeal to my colleagues to vote in favour of the Bill so that we make progress. Other things can follow after the Bill has been passed. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Dr Lungu: Sir, I have no doubt that the Chairperson of your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs did a good job because I have read through the report because I am an ardent reader.  The challenge that I have with the report is that it is not telling this House the submissions on the non-contentious clauses. Your Committee should also have availed the House the reasons the report cannot be adopted. As it is, we have been left in suspense. I accept that your Committee is made up of mature and hardworking people. It is a very nice Committee and has actually come up with a very good document. However, the report does not indicate the non-contentious clauses.

 Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.
 Mr Speaker: Order!

 I will not accept that point of order.

 Dr Lungu: Sir, there are no clauses that have been availed to us to deliberate upon.

Mr Speaker, this is a straightforward issue. I know that every hon. Member in this House is sent here to represent the people. Now I am speaking on behalf of the people of Chama South who are also listening. We must move forward as the Government. We cannot be on the same spot all the time. This is a Constitution-making process which is done in stages. This is the initial stage. When we come back after the elections next year, we shall continue with the process. We shall be here beyond 2016. After all, it is only God who knows who should rule others because if some people were put in charge of governing the country, we might not be here even for two days.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Lungu: Sir, it is for this reason that God only allows those who have the passion for the people of Zambia to continue governing this country. It is not by mistake that we shall be here after 2016. Actually, this has been planned by God.

Laughter

Dr Lungu: Mr Speaker, this is a serious matter and we should reflect on why we are in this House. We are not here to represent ourselves, but the people of Zambia. Will it make sense for us to vote against this Bill? We would be ‘killing’ the entire population if we did that. My appeal to both the right and left is that we reflect on this issue and move forward by agreeing to adopt the Bill and look at the rest later.

Mr Speaker, this is a very serious issue and I would like as many hon. Members as possible to contribute to the debate on it. Although I have heard negative views from my colleagues, my passionate appeal is that we move forward. Remember, this is a year of reconciliation and it is just after October the month of national prayers. Let us reconcile in this House, move forward and show the Zambians that we can move in one direction and speak with one voice. United we stand, divided we fall. Can we unite, hon. Members, so that we can move forward, vote for this Bill and pass it.

Mr Speaker, with these few but meaningful words, I beg that we support and pass this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Members who will be called upon to debate should try their best to avoid repetitive debate. I know that everyone in this House is entitled to 20 minutes of debate, but let us be efficient in our debates. We should also bear in mind that this is a two-stage process in the sense that there is Bill No. 16 and Bill No. 17 and we have some way to go. I am sure you are able to tell when you begin to repeat yourself. To that effect, I do not want to curtail anybody’s debate.     
       
Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I am privileged to serve as Member of Parliament for Chembe Parliamentary Constituency and National Secretary for the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). I combine the two roles.

Sir, I know that this is a very contentious issue, and as the MMD, we neither look to the right nor left, but at the centre. The background to this issue has been given by my colleagues. That background that has been laid relates to the number of Constitution commissions that we have had and the colossal sums of money that have been spent on this process. So, since all that background has been laid, I will be brief in my debate.

Mr Speaker, what is so clear about the background and why I may sound different is that the failure to have a new Constitution has been attributed to the MMD, especially in 2011. For us, that is a lesson because we have been blamed for the failure to enact a new Constitution while in power. Many people have confirmed that in that Bill, there were good clauses which they would have loved to see.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, it is said that once beaten, twice shy. So, the people must understand our position.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, as the MMD, we understand the fears of the people and we expect our colleagues in the Patriotic Front (PF) to do the same. The people fear that if those contentious issues in the Constitution are brought to this House, they will be tampered with and mutilated, just as my colleagues have said. For us, that could be a genuine reason, which we do not dispute. Those are the concerns of the people. So, we want to urge our colleagues to attend to them in an effective manner. 

Sir, secondly, as the MMD, if we stand with our colleagues in the PF on this matter, chances are that we shall be blamed or accused of being part and parcel of that system. I want to state that in our African context, Ingulube ilakonka iyilile umumbu, meaning that you cannot accuse or blame someone for something he did not do. In this regard, we are very clear that the Bill has been brought to this House by the party in Government. So, our colleagues must actually distinguish between what we did and what we are doing today. If you ask us what we would have loved to see, we will tell you that we would have loved to see the full document brought before the House.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, that would have been the ideal situation. However, as one of my colleagues said, under the circumstances, we believe that a bird in hand is worth more in the forest.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Bayama!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, understand me clearly. I am saying I want the people to understand the predicament of the MMD. Dear colleagues, today, we are in what we might call a catch- twenty-two because, as Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa said, we do not know what ghost is in the mind of our colleagues. This can be interpreted in many ways. Who will bear the blame if we shoot this Bill down at this stage?

Hon. Opposition Members: Them!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, on one hand, it will be the PF to blame, but on the other hand, the people will say that Parliament has shot down the will of the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Wisdom!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I want the hon. Members to get this right. At the moment, we, in the MMD, have observed that the issues that have been brought in this Bill are the same items that this nation has been pushing for. So, this is the predicament that we find ourselves in. Those issues include the 50 per cent plus one and running mate clauses, among others. I want you to understand us. My colleagues will say the PF does not want those clauses to be included in the Constitution. So, if the PF does not want to do that, then, you have to prove it. So, how are you going to prove that the PF does not want that? That is why us, in the MMD, we stand firm and walk through the entire process of enacting a new Constitution and prove to the people that, ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, we do not want to sound vague once more. I want to place it on record that we, in the MMD, are interested in ...

Interruptions
Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Mbulakulima: ... the end result. In this case, the end result is the will of the people.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, this is just the first round of the process. We want to see the end result which is the will of the people. It is for that reason that we feel that for the time being, we would rather look at the items in the Bill, and pass them so that we give the people some of their expectations.

Sir, I promised to be very brief and to the point. This is a very difficult situation, but people need to understand what it means. This is a catch twenty-two.
 
I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, this document is very important. We are supposed to debate whether or not the Constitution Bill should be enacted through Parliament. The hon. Members who have debated before me have talked about the content of the Constitution itself. The Draft Constitution is already being debated. The dilemma we are in is whether we should debate the document which is yet to be brought to this House or not. 

Sir, I have listened to the debates by other hon. Members and Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa has brought out issues that are worrisome. The United Party for National Development (UPND) has been agreeing with the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) on the best way of enacting a new Constitution. That is how come the Government did not hear us stop our people around the country from making submissions on this process. That is because the UPND genuinely wants a people-driven Constitution. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, when the hon. Minister of Justice indicated to us that there were contentious issues in the Draft Constitution, we were at a loss. So, we approached the hon. Minister of Justice and urged him to bring out those contentious issues. He came to this House and presented a ministerial statement, saying we would discuss those contentious issues, but that never came to pass. That is the reason the Zambian people have not trusted Parliament. We always want to debate issues that we already agreed on. I now understand why the Governments of Kenya and Zimbabwe adopted their Constitutions through a referendum.

Mr Speaker, we had initially agreed that we would enact the new Constitution through a referendum. However, halfway through the process, our colleagues on your right decided to take a piecemeal approach. It must be clearly stated here that what is being done now is not the amendment of the whole Constitution, as the people wanted. The Zambian people must know that only selected parts of the Constitution are being amended.

Mr Speaker, the press, which is the Fourth Estate, has not been helpful in this process. Some media houses are eager to blame certain groups and have politicised the whole issue. Even before the Constitution of Zambia Bill came here, we were reading in The Daily Nation newspaper about who was to blame if the whole process failed.  The newspaper stated that it already knew that the Opposition wanted to stop the Constitution-making process. Where The Daily Nation got this information is anybody’s guess. 

Mr Speaker, the UPND insists on the amendment of the whole Constitution, including the Bill of Rights. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: No!

Mr Muntanga: The people of Zambia want the Bill of Rights to include rights to food, education and so on and so forth. Why should the Ruling Party refuse this and only concentrate on other clauses in the Constitution? We are only talking about political issues such as having a 50 per cent plus one majority vote for the victor and a presidential running mate. The people, however, are more interested in the Bill of Rights. What have we got to say about the right to food or education? Some colleagues in the Government have argued that such rights are not feasible because there is no money to feed every Zambian. Such reasoning makes our people lose faith in politicians. Why do we fail to agree on such important matters? 

Therefore, the whole Constitution must be taken to a referendum. Those who say that conducting a national referendum is expensive should look at how much we have spent on by-elections in the recent past. In fact, enacting a Constitution which contains the inhabitance of several by-elections would save us money. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, why should the cost of the Referendum be an issue now? 

Mr Speaker, you will recall that in the past few months, we have been appealing to the Government to ensure that every eligible voter in this country is registered as a voter. However, no seriousness was shown in how the whole exercise was conducted. When we insisted on every eligible voter being captured, we had the constitutional referendum in mind. 

Mr Speaker, we are now being asked to agree with the route our colleagues in the Ruling Party have taken in this process, which is contrary to what we had wanted in the first place. Therefore, who is to blame for the stand-off? The Daily Nation is blaming other groups, instead of the Patriotic Front (PF). The MMD was gracious enough, through its National Secretary, to accept the blame for the failure of the previous Constitution-making process. The MMD failed to enact a new Constitution when it was in power. 

However, hon. Members of the PF, such as Hon. Dr Lungu, who is just from speaking, are saying they are not to blame for the current crisis in this process.  When are they going to accept that what they are doing is wrong? When the PF was in the Opposition, its hon. Members did not want to participate in the Constitution-making process. That was their principle. The first time the Constitution Bill was brought in this House, they voted against it. The second time, they walked out. 

Mr Nkombo: They ran away.

Mr Muntanga: They literary ran away. In our case, however, we have remained here to indicate our views on this matter without fear. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, as I have stated, what we want is for the Draft Constitution to include all the clauses that our colleagues have left out and taken to the Zambian people to decide. We do not want politicians to interfere and decide what should be contained in the new Constitution. There is no need to campaign against a referendum. If we are all saying we should have a people-driven Constitution, why should we be scared that a referendum will fail? Why are we contradicting ourselves? 

Mr Speaker, I agree with Hon. Dr Lungu’s sentiments that we must go forward. I did not know that he was partially UPND. Zambia forward.

Laughter 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, in moving forward, let us take the whole Constitution to a referendum, instead of making piecemeal amendments.

Mr Speaker, it is a fact that immediately we accept the approach our colleagues have taken in this process, there will be further amendments. Once that happens, there will be no turning back for us. That is the ‘ghost’ that Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa was talking about. We do not want to be part of a decision that will haunt us in future.

Sir, we have been following the deliberations of your Committee. When the hon. Minister of Justice appeared before it, he said that the Government had no position on the Constitution-making process. How can he say that? The Government must always have a position on such an important national issue. If anything, it is the owner of the Draft Constitution. It is like we are going back to the time when we had an hon. Minister of Justice who flip-flopped over the Constitution-making process. For a while, we did not even know who had the Draft Constitution between the hon. Minister of Justice and Chairperson of the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution. There was so much ping pong being played over the matter. 

Mr Chairperson, the Constitution-making process has finally reached this House. However, I suspected this is because next year’s General Elections hinge on this process.  This is why there is so much finger pointing on who to blame if the process fails. We should not play a blame game with our Constitution. This is a matter that we should all discuss openly and truthfully. As hon. Members of Parliament, if we have differences and cannot agree, then, let us allow the people to decide through a referendum. We fail to agree because what the Opposition wants is not what the Ruling Party wants. 

Mr Speaker, since I have not sat on your right hand side before, I want to understand one thing. There must be something that scares people when they move to that side of the House.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: When the MMD, which is now part of the Opposition, was that side, it wanted nothing to do with the issue of the 50 per cent plus one majority vote for a presidential candidate to be declared a winner. After our colleagues in the PF moved that side, they have also changed their position on issues like having a presidential running mate. There must be something wrong with that place. 

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am interested in knowing what happens to hon. Members when they sit on your right hand side because I think I have a straightforward mind. 

Mr Speaker, I want to caution the media not to join in politicking, but inform the people of Zambia the truth. Those who want money from the Government should not tell lies. We are talking about a number of issues which concern us …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member, the word “lies” is unparliamentary.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am appealing to the media not to be economical with the truth. There appears to be so much falsehood and propaganda in the media. If this Bill goes through today, I will come and debate more on it later. However, I can tell you that tomorrow’s headlines in the newspapers on this matter will be in favour of the Ruling Party because the Constitution-making process is now being used as a campaign tool. That is not the way to enact a good Constitution. This is why I am saying that the enactment of a new Constitution should be taken away from politicians. 

At the moment, what we are seeing is that those that want favours from top Government officials like the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting will write nice stories about the Government and cast aspersions on other groups in society. They will even ignore the fact that the people want a referendum and insinuate that people like me want to impose what we want on this process. What I want is the adoption of the whole Constitution through a referendum.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: I will have no argument with what the people will decide through a referendum. Therefore, we need to be sincere in the manner we handle the Constitution-making process. I, however, refuse to vote on the side of those who are blaming us for the hiccups that we are experiencing in this process. Those who have managed to marshal the required numbers in this House for this Bill to go through this stage can go ahead and win by using numbers. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Later, I want to remind the hon. Members about that …

Mr Milambo: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: ... ghost because it is true that their ghosts (pointing at the Government Bench) will be revealed very soon. With due respect, like you said, we must be hon. Members who should show respect – it is you, Hon. Mr Speaker, who said that we should respect your Committees’ Reports (facing the UPND Members).  

Mr Milambo laughed.

Mr Muntanga: We would like to show respect, especially that I am aware that my fellow hon. Members here could be blamed for being disrespectful. I urge them to respect your Committee’s Report.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, we will respect the recommendation of your Committee. Whatever it has said in its report, I will agree with it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Kambwili): Mr Speaker, thank very much for according me the opportunity to debate on one or two issues that have been raised this afternoon. 

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I am disappointed to learn that hon. Members of Parliament do not trust themselves. We have seen, this afternoon, that some Members of Parliament do not trust themselves, they do not believe that they are the people’s representatives and that they have been given the mandate to represent the people.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the Constitution …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: … gives Parliament the power to make laws.

Ms Kapata: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The process of adopting a Constitution is a political one. I think, by and large, every politician knows that their job is to provide for the people of Zambia. In providing for the people of Zambia what is important to note like a Bemba saying goes, “Ubunga, balinganya na menshi.”

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: What does it mean?

Mr Kambwili: This literally means you can only live within your means.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Yes, we want the Constitution to be adopted through a referendum, …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: … but do we have the money?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Do we have the money?

The question is that we have come this far because we do not have the money. That is a fact.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!
Mr Kambwili: If we had the money, we could have had the Referendum even two years ago or yesterday.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Just yesterday, some people were complaining that salaries for teachers were late, …
Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: … yet you are saying we have the money to go for a referendum. We have said that …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, wait.

Please, there is no need to engage the hon. Minister while you are seated. It will not help. It is pointless. Not to mention that I will not permit you to do that, anyway.

I want everybody to be there right through this debate. We are almost getting to the end.

Hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the problem with some people is that they are inconsistent. 

Mr Mwila: Yes! 

Ms Lubezhi: Question!

Mr Kambwili: There is a known political party that participated in the National Constitutional Conference (NCC), submitted and …

Ms Kapata: Ate the money.

Mr Kambwili: … ‘ate’ the money. At the stage like the one we have reached, they chickened out.

Mr Mwale: Chickened out.

Mr Kambwili: Even now, it is the same thing. They participated in the process. They have been calling, “We want the Constitution, we want the Constitution!” We said, “Look, let us have all the non-contentious issues, …

Interruptions
Mr Kambwili: … the Referendum, …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … and the Bill of Rights together with the elections in 2016 .. 

Ms Lubezhi; Question!

Mr Kambwili: … be adopted through Parliament.”

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Since that party is used to “eating and chickening out”, ... 

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: ... they want to chicken out ...

Laughter

Mr Mwila: They ‘ate’ cash.

Mr Kambwili: … and accuse others of wanting to manipulate the process. Let us learn to be consistent.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: They even want to mislead the people of Zambia by saying that the Patriotic Front (PF) were the ones who caused the downfall of the NCC. As the PF, from the beginning, …

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: … we did not participate in the NCC. 

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: We refused to participate ...

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: … because we were not happy with the composition of the NCC. People were selected to participate in the NCC while other representatives were left out.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: So, we were not happy with that.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: We did not participate, but …

Mr Mwila: Yes!
Mr Kambwili: … you participated ...

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … because for you, it was politics.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: You want to gain political mileage …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … all the time.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Kambwili: If you have never been in the Government, you may not appreciate certain things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Mbulakulima and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) have said what they have said because they have been in the Government before.

Mr Mwila: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: To stand here and say you want all the issues that have been raised by the people of Zambia – whoever you call the Zambian people because I do not know what you mean by the Zambian people –  …

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: ... because when you go to Mporokoso, …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … in my mother’s village, they do not know about the Constitution. All they want is fertiliser, food and seed.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: That is a fact.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: If you go to Kawama in Mpatamatu in my constituency and ask the people about the Constitution, they will not know what you are talking about.

Mr Mwale: And provincial parliaments.

Mr Mwila: They want jobs.

Mr Kambwili: Do you want us as the PF to accept the provisions in that Constitution …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: … and create a crisis in the country …

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: … and then you rise and say …

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … these are the people who did this?

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Colleagues, let me give an example …

Dr Kalila: That is the ghost!

Mr Hamudulu: The ghost has been revealed!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, pause for a moment.

I do not know how many times I will make an appeal. I still have the powers to take drastic measures. I am being tempted to do so.

Hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier, you must live within your means. You want us, as a Government in power, to accept to establish provincial parliaments when we have so many financial problems. I will not be a part of that. Where is the money going to come from? You want to take money to the politicians instead of building houses for teachers, employing nurses and building schools.

Mr Ndalamei: The ghost has come out!

Mr Kambwili: You want every province to have a parliament so that every Member should be paid allowances and given a vehicle. You expect to accept that just like that? We will not do that. We are not irresponsible.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Secondly, when the President increased ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kambwili: ... the number of Cabinet Ministers by three, you cried foul. In this Draft Constitution, there is a provision to increase the number of Members of Parliament to 279 and you want us to accept that? Where is the money going to come from?

Hon. Opposition Members: Oh!

Mr Kambwili: That is why we need to debate these issues in order to agree to disagree.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: We should look at the financial ability of this country to meet those provisions. So, hon. Colleagues, you are only trying to be arrogant.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: If you are reasonable, support this Bill. Let us debate in order to disagree but, for you to try to chicken out even before you ‘taste the meat’ is being unreasonable.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: No point of order is allowed.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to all the hon. Members to avoid politicking so that the decisions we make, collectively, can stand the test of time. We are not going to spend money on paying constitutional office holders and creating provincial parliaments. This Draft Constitution is calling for the creation of five more commissions …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … that have to be paid. Come on, ‘put a sock in it’.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I appeal to all of us to look at the suffering of the people of Zambia ...

Interruptions 

Mr Kambwili: ... and not waste money for the sake of wasting it. Let us support this process. 

With these few words, I leave it to you to search your consciences.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: I support the Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo indicated.

Hon. Members: Gender, gender!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I think I announced the modus operandi.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo (Chipata Central): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to stand and be part and parcel of the group that is debating the Constitution of Zambia. It is a very rare privilege.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Secondly, Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Justice for, at least, keeping his word that at a certain time, he will bring this document to Parliament.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, thirdly, I wish to sincerely thank your Committee which looked at this issue and brought its position into the Chamber so that hon. Members of Parliament can debate from an informed position.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: I wish your Committee had come up with a more resolute position on why such an important document should be withdrawn.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: I am being absolutely honest and crisp. I want to be clear about issues like this one.  I really would like to know. I would like to say to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs and your Committees of Parliament, generally, that we bring problems upon ourselves by not being clear about what we want to achieve with a certain conclusions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: How can a Committee ...

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order, on the right!

Mr Mtolo: ... that has been tasked with such a huge responsibility come to Parliament and recommend the withdrawal of the Bill because stakeholders did not agree? You are now putting us in an awkward position. We would have loved to know the reasons.

Mr Speaker, I wish to state that I stand in my personal capacity as hon. Member of Parliament for Chipata Central but, more importantly, as Whip of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the MMD, I wish to push the position of consistency.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: The hon. Members from the MMD did exactly what the Patriotic Front (PF) is doing. You see anger from the hon. Members of Parliament because of the way the PF, at that time, conducted itself. We are here today because the Constitution Bill was thrown out. It should never have been like that. I, therefore, wish to give the position of the party that it has decided to be consistent on this issue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, in 2010, the MMD brought a similar Bill before the House. It is the view of the MMD, therefore, that what is happening is a mere continuation of the process it started.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: What the PF wants to do now is conclude a process which they should have better looked at that time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Therefore, as a party, which has millions of members, we stand in this Chamber and say that we are going to support this Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, the MMD wanted this to happen. How, ethically can it now reject the process that it started? It is on that basis, amongst many, that the MMD stands today, through me, as Whip, to support this Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, what has happened this afternoon was a well orchestrated and well-planned strategy of the MMD. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: The previous speakers from the MMD said what they said with our full approval because we wanted the right side of the House to be clear that if the fears that Hon. Prof. Lungwangwa, for example, put forward are not looked at critically, the MMD will use the ‘eject button’ and pull out from this discussion.

Interruptions

Mr Mtolo: As a party, we are aware ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mtolo: ... that whatever we discuss will not be final, but that a time will come, again, when the two-thirds majority will be required to vote for what we would have discussed. We are fully aware and have consulted. If what we want is not done properly, I would like the Executive to know that we are going to press the eject button. Therefore, we will not accept machinations and manipulation of what we want. There are certain clauses which the people of Zambia have been calling for to be included in the Constitution and the process that we are starting today is to allow those issues to be brought forward. How on earth can we refuse to open a door when we do not know what is on the other side?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mtolo: How on earth can we refuse to pass this Bill and ‘kill’ the real issues? A man whom I respect so much, Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, Hon. Request Muntanga, put it very well when he said that at certain points, all of us need to sit and reflect and talk to our consciences and ask what we are doing. Are we doing the right thing? Let me ask a few questions to which I have the answers.

Sir, firstly, what do the people of Zambia want at the moment? They want a Constitution. What we are doing today is to open the door for the discussions on the Constitution which the people of Zambia have already given us. I have not heard anyone discuss clauses (a), (b) and (c). This book is big. The people have got trust in, us as hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: The people of Zambia have a document which the Government wants to bring to Parliament. How can we start defeating a very important Bill based on assumption? Let us see how the discussions go and if there will be manipulation and machination, the people on your left have the right to withdraw from the discussions. We are making it very clear to the people on your right that if there will be any signs of amendments and things like that which we shall not agree with, we, as the MMD, will definitely pull out with as much effectiveness as I am standing here letting you know that we will support the Bill. We will be the first ones to march out so that this Bill is not passed. We pray that this does not happen because I want to believe that the people on your right and your left have one common cause to improve the Constitution of Zambia, which has brought a lot of headache to the people of Zambia.

The other point I want to put forward is that when people vote for us to come to Parliament, they have confidence and trust in us. We should not reduce the authority which they give us to nothing.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, we all have old parents. We have grandmothers and grandfathers. Surely, can they appreciate what is being debated in this House today? The answer is no. We are here to debate on their behalf. We are here as their representatives. One major function of the hon. Member of Parliament is to represent the people. I can assure you, Mr Speaker, that as I stand here on behalf of the MMD, the people are very happy with the position that we have taken in support of the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I would like to appeal to all the hon. Members from the Opposition not to shoot down the Constitution-making process. The people expect us to move forward on this issue. As the Opposition, we should not lie low. I would like to caution my hon. Colleagues on the left that if our friends in the Executive are trying to play games with us, we must be very careful. If we reject this first part of the Bill, the blame will be on us ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mtolo: ... and we should not allow that. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtolo: I wish to appeal to hon. Members on the left not to allow the blame to be on us. Let us play a smart game. Let us go ahead with this Bill so that we see the end of this debate. 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: I am not with you this time. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mtolo: Mr Speaker, I heard Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo agree with me by saying, “Yes, Whip, I expected you to say that.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

That was a light moment.

Laughter

Mr Mtolo: Therefore, I urge my colleagues on your left to take this chance seriously and not throw it away. The people of Zambia have had enough of these failures of the Constitution- making processes. Let us move forward. Let us agree to this first stage. We can refuse to pass the stages which will come after this one but, for now, let us agree to pass the Bill so that the debate on the Constitution can remain open. 

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I wish to state very clearly that as the MMD, we support the Bill, and we will vote in support of it so that we open the debate for the new Constitution in Parliament. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I shall take your advice to be brief because a lot has already been said. I am going to take a slightly different dimension to the debate. 

Sir, this process began a long time ago. The history has been narrated to us on how things went wrong in 2011 right on the Floor of this House, when it came to passing the new Constitution. I was here. I can attest to what happened then. Like others have said, once beaten, twice shy. 

Mr Speaker, I have in my hands a copy of a verbatim report of the House, which quoted the Minister of Justice, Hon. Dr Simbyakula, saying certain things on the Constitution-making process. I also have a copy of what Hon. Wynter Kabimba said on this matter, but I think I will leave him alone for now. I will quote what Hon. Dr Ngosa Simbyakula said on the 19th March, 2015, right here on the Floor of the House after the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwinilunga asked him a question on this subject. 

Mr Katuka asked Hon. Dr Simbyakula the following question:

“Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that if stakeholders are in agreement by June, he would bring piecemeal amendments to the House. Sir, at what forum do you intend to bring the stakeholders together to decide as to which Articles will be brought for amendment so that they all agree?”

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Justice responded as follows: 

“Mr Speaker, consultation takes all forms. One of the things I was going to propose would be a meeting of all political parties that are represented here. Perhaps, not have all political parties but, at least, have a caucus of the whole House or, maybe, a meeting of representatives from each party to go through a checklist and decide which issues are non-contentious and can be brought here.”

Mr Speaker, during his engagement with your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters, and Child Affairs, the hon. Minister of Justice said he had no position on this matter. I want to state without fear and with due respect, that he was not being honest because he had a position, and his position is here in this document. I think that when he submitted to your Committee that he did not have a position on this matter, Chapter 12 of the Laws of Zambia should have actually visited him because he was not honest over the matter. 

Mr Speaker, we asked the hon. Minister on the Floor of this House, “Who determined to you what is contentious and what is not?” We engaged the hon. Minister positively here and outside. I must say that on certain occasions, his temperament left him. Up to this moment, he has failed lamentably to tell us which stakeholders gave him the list of contentious and non-contentious issues. However, today, we are fortunate that Hon. Kambwili has told us what he thinks are the contentious issues. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: One of the clauses that he thinks is contentious is the creation of provincial assemblies and the fifty 50 per cent plus one majority vote clause. I would like to put it to you ...

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

No point of order allowed. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I stand to be corrected. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Nkombo, I am glad you are gracious about it. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I want to debate in a manner which is less emotional because we are all one people here. Hon. Kambwili talked about the provincial assemblies, and his colleagues talked about other things, including what I have just said. 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the point I am putting across is that the Patriotic Front (PF) has a hidden agenda and it has been exposed. It is clear to everyone that it does not mean well. It is putting Zambia in harm’s way. The hon. Members from the PF think that they are the only Zambians. The question is, Who are the Zambians? The Constitution we are operating under defines who a Zambian is. The people of Zambia are represented by everyone here. 

Mr Speaker, I recall that the late hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi East asked the hon. Minister of Justice a question ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Solwezi West. 

Mr Nkombo: I beg your pardon, it was the hon. Member for Solwezi West. The late Hon. Mwanza, Member for Solwezi West, asked the hon. Minister of Justice the following question:

“Mr Speaker, I want the hon. Minister of Justice to explain to this House and the people of Zambia how he ignored the contents of the Draft Constitution Report, and based it on the few people he got from his pocket at the ministry to be part of the evidence here.”

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, of course, you censured Hon. Mwanza for asking his question in that manner. In the same breath, Hon. Konga also asked a question to the same hon. Minister of Justice seated here. I am saying all this to demonstrate how divisive the Constitution-making process has been. The Government thinks that it can give us a veiled bride in the name of the Constitution so that we can only discover that she has got no eyes at the point of unveiling. The process protects the content. Hon. Dr Simbyakula knows that if the process is not protected by a legal framework, it can be manipulated, and that is what the Government has done this afternoon. It has manipulated the Constitution-making process. Hon. Dr Simbyakula was cognisant of the fact that people can be devious because this is what he said in his response to a question on this matter: 

Mr Nkombo rummaged through his document. 

Interruptions

Mr Nkombo: Ndai jana. I have found it. 

Mr Speaker, the Member for Katuba, Hon. Shakafuswa, asked the hon. Minister of Justice the flowing question: 

“As a rider to the question which was asked by the wise hon. Member for Chama North who was talking about God, and amplifying the hon. Minister’s statement – Sorry, it was Hon Zimba – in the past, the Constitution has failed because of greed, selfishness, nefyashala. What will stop the political orientation and greed of hon. Members of this House from shooting down the people’s will, which you are proudly displaying in the Draft Constitution?”   

The hon. Minister’s response was that he did not belong to that class of people. It is a tragedy when people think that absolute power can be exercised without due consultation of other stakeholders. Today, the PF has exposed itself bare before everyone. I am told that His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Lungu, washed his hands as a devil’s advocate the other day when it was rumoured that hon. Members of Parliament intended to shoot down this Bill. 

Nonetheless, we know that they have something up their sleeve because the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting, and Member of Parliament for Roan, Hon. Kambwili, told us today that the PF do not want provincial assemblies. 

Sir, the decisions were made by the Zambian people. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Today, you should tell me, in no uncertain terms, that you, who are on the left-hand side of the Hon. Mr Speaker, are more Zambian than those who voted for you. 

Mr Mweetwa: On the right-hand side. 

Mr Nkombo: You should tell us today that you are more Zambian than those who voted for you. If that is the case, then, good luck to you. 

Mr Speaker, this is a defining moment for all of us. The manipulation by the PF has been too glaring for everyone to miss.  

Mr Milambo: Exactly!

Mr Nkombo: Personally, I will not appeal to my colleagues on what to do next because they have consciences of their own. However, you know that this Assembly goes through a guillotine every five years, and we are moving towards the end of this five-year period where we shall all be judged. If today, we make a decision that is inimical to the Zambian people, I will accept to take the blame. I am not afraid of being blamed because it is part of leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I am not afraid to be blamed for not following a blind person. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I am using the word “blind” in jest. 

Laughter  

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, I can assure you that a good number of my colleagues on your right-hand side do not even know what is going on, in terms of the implications …
Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Order!
Hon. Member, you have moved from a figure of speech to debating your colleagues. That is not right and fair. 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, the implication is that using the arrogance of numbers, the PF will mutilate this document, that Zambians spent so much money on to put together, to an unrecognisable state. 

Do you know that you are just transiting through this Chamber? Personally, I am glad that I am an elected Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central Constituency and that I am answerable to the people of Mazabuka Central if the decision that I make today is wrong simply because I do not trust the PF. 

Mr Mufalali: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: This is the bottom line. I do not trust the colleagues who are on the right-hand side. They have proved that they are not trustworthy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: It all began a long time ago when the late President went to Yangeni Radio Station in Mansa. This is how far back I recall this journey. He said, “Do people eat the Constitution? What do these people want?” This was a message loud enough for me to understand that we are running on a rough road.  

Now, we have a new President. Fortunately for us, and unfortunately for them, they are leaving soon. 

Laughter 

Mr Chilangwa: Leaving to go where? 

Mr Nkombo: They have made a complete U-turn on their own processes. Without putting the cart before the horse, it is true that the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution did not finish working on this document. This is one glaring lesson we have learnt. 

I urge you to follow events that happen. Go and check what the Judiciary said about this process on radio. The Judiciary had new ideas that they wanted infused in this document. Now, someone is telling us that this is what the people want. This is precisely why your Committee has recommended that this Bill be withdrawn in its entirety. The hon. Minister is, however, insisting that we not throw the baby together with the bath water. How are we throwing the baby when we just want the Bill withdrawn?  

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Who said that withdrawing the Bill means collapsing it? Maybe, I am ignorant, but we have withdrawn Bills in this House before and asked that they be presented properly. 

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, whom I listened to on radio, said he had no position on the matter. Ah! 

Mr Mbewe: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: It is difficult to understand how a leader who is driving a process can be asked what his position in that process is and he replies that he has none.   

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: What is your attestation?

Mr Nkombo: I do not know. 

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Already, this creates a lot of fear in a person like me, and confirms that all my engagements with the hon. Minister, without taking away an ounce of respect from him as an individual, have been an exercise in futility. 

He said that we should engage each other, as Whips and, perhaps, get one or two legal people so that we could agree on the way forward. As you see me here, I am a Whip, appointed by my party. When he said that we should talk as Whips, I played along and did the donchi kubeba because I knew that it was not up to me to decide which clauses should and should not come. However, I wanted to expose …

Mr Speaker: Order!

What do you mean? 

Mr Nkombo: Donchi kubeba means do not tell them that you are bluffing. I was also bluffing.

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: I followed him, yes, …

Mr Speaker: You are now debating the hon. Minister and yourself. 

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said on the Floor of this House that we should engage one another. This is what I am referring to. That engagement did not happen. I do not want to be gagged for now because I am debating things that were discussed here. Awa (pointing at the Floor).

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Awa!

Mr Speaker: Please, use the official language. 

Mr Nkombo: He said that we should meet, discuss and find a common position, which was good and gentlemanly of him. There was absolutely no reason for me to think otherwise because I was so sure that the hon. Minister respects us. However, I do not think that he does. If he did, we would have done something so that even the stakeholders whom I report to in Mazabuka Central could have asked about my engagement with the hon. Minister. This is how we build consensus.

 You do not come here and gamble a ka black and na ka red so that when something fails, you say it was Gary who did A, B, and C. You have been exposed as the PF. You do not want to have the Constitution that the Zambians put together for themselves. This is the bottom line. 

We can say this and that but, at the end of the day, we have exposed you simply by following what you have been doing. Today, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting said that you do not want provincial assemblies. Ah!

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: The decision to have provincial assemblies was made by Zambians. 

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: Unless you are telling us that you do not respect them. This matter is there in the Draft Constitution. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Nkombo: The process was there, unless you took it to Angola. 

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: If it is a document that was done here in Zambia, then, the Zambian people drew some sort of consensus. As the Opposition, we are ready for this Draft Constitution to be brought in its entirety. I do not have what it takes to start cutting corners and claiming that if the Vice-President is a running mate, he/she will be monstrous to the President. Where have you heard that? 

Mr Speaker, they talked about cost. After the setbacks that Zambia has suffered after losing two sitting Presidents, this clause solves the problem because there will be no need for elections when a sitting president passes on.

Mr Mufalali: Yes!

Mr Nkombo: The Vice-President will simply ascend to the seat and wait for the term to come to an end. In their minds, however, they are sure that the Vice-President will undermine the President. These are people who believe in absolute power. These hon. PF People do not want the devolution of power. 

Laughter 

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I want to conclude my twenty minutes by saying that, today, is a very bad day for me. I was shocked earlier today when I raised a point of order on the PF – by the way, we won. Those people you had forbidden to enter the Assembly, you the PF people, are now here.  

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are not allowed to address people who are in the galleries. That is a convention. As Whip, you know this very well. You cannot address those people. 

Mr Nkombo: I was addressing the PF, Sir. The people whom they blocked earlier using the police are now here and listening to the debates. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Laughter

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up this debate. First foremost, I want to commend all the Members ...

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Simbyakula: ... for their contributions to this debate. It is a very important debate. Some have debated with profound passion. This can be an emotive issue. It is a very critical subject for the Zambian people. This is as it should be. We should all debate freely from the bottom of our hearts because it is only the truth that shall set us free.

Sir, in response to the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, it is true that, initially, we, on your right, said that we would bring some clauses which we viewed as non-contentious. However, on reflection, we thought that route would amount to producing a White Paper where we do the cherry picking by ourselves. That is why hon. Members would have noticed that the Bill contains all the clauses as drafted by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution. We did not pick or cherry pick any clauses. We brought the entire Bill here so that all of us, as stakeholders, would participate in determining the so-called non-contentious clauses on behalf of the people we represent. It is misleading to accuse us of having brought some clauses while we have brought the entire Draft Constitution, except the Bill of Rights which, by law, requires ...

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Simbyakula: ... to be subjected to a referendum. We said that this would be done concurrently with the Tripartite Elections because of the cost element. 

Mr Speaker, after voting this evening, we shall start looking at the Constitution, itself, clause by clause. There will be a week between now and the time of the Committee and consultations can take place. It is, however, not the end of the day, as some have put it. Consultations can take place once the Constitution Bill has gone through. That opens the way to discuss the Constitution, itself, and that is when we can carry out consultations. I wish to make that very clear.

Sir, after voting today, we shall have a week in between to get to the Committee stage and consultations can take place now and then. Those who have read the report of your Committee will have noted the concerns that those who appeared before your Committee raised and which we need to address.

Mr Speaker, we live in a representative democracy. We are here in a representative capacity representing our constituents. Those who may have voted for us and those who may not have voted for us are still represented by us. I said earlier in my statement that there are practical challenges with the referendum. Unless and until we can come up with a system of determining the collective will of the people on each and every clause, a referendum cannot reflect the will of the people. A referendum is best suited to deciding single issues, not complex multidimensional issues.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Simbyakula: Personally, I have the utmost confidence that all Members here, putting aside partisan interests, have the ability to express the will of the people they represent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Dr Simbyakula: That is what is before us.

Sir, let us put aside partisan interests. Let us put Zambia first. The Zambian people are watching.

Interruptions 

Mr Mwila: Iwe, leka doctor alelanda.

Dr Simbyakula: We have reached this far and we are almost at the threshold of frontiers where we have not been before in the constitutional development of this country. We are almost there. I, therefore, appeal to all hon. Members in this House to put aside partisan interests and put Zambia first.

Mr Speaker, I would like to urge all hon. Members to support the Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as you are all aware, this is a Constitution Bill. Article 79(2)(b) of the Republican Constitution and Standing Order No. 100 of the National Assembly Standing Orders of 2005 both provide that a Bill to amend the Constitution shall not be passed unless it is supported on second or third reading by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all the Members of the Assembly. We have one vacant seat, Kasama Central, therefore, two-thirds of all the Members of this Assembly amount to 105.

However, let me hasten to point out in advance that any amendment at Committee Stage requires only a simple majority to stand as part of the Bill ...

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: ... but, as I said earlier on, at a third stage, you require a two-thirds majority. Take note of these facts and provisions of the law.

We shall, therefore, proceed to vote and we shall do so electronically. 

I put the question. The question is that the Bill be read a second time and the instructions for voting are as follows ...

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Before we start the voting, we shall ring the bells, clear the lobbies ...

Interruptions 
Mr Speaker: Given the time, I would urge that in the next 20 seconds or so, especially for those who have just joined us in the Assembly, please, familiarise yourselves and, if need be, consult with the Clerks-at-the-Table how to vote electronically. We shall do the voting after the break.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members before we proceed, I want to make myself absolutely clear on what I stated in my announcement. I referred to Article 79(2)(b) of the Constitution of Zambia and I will read it again.

(2)    Subject to Clause (3), a Bill for the alteration of this Constitution or the Constitution of Zambia Act shall not be passed unless – 

(b)    the Bill is supported on second and third readings by votes of not less than two-thirds of all Members of the Assembly.

Before business was suspended, I had indicated that the bells be rang and the lobbies cleared.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Sir, I humbly appeal to you to reconsider your earlier decision considering the business that we are getting into and, please, allow the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola to vote.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Nkombo: I am asking the Hon. Mr Speaker and not you.

Mr Speaker: His request is directed at the Chair. I am afraid I am not able to review that decision. Let me also say that these are not decisions that are made lightly because they are not pleasant. So, please, try to discipline your emotions, especially when we have an emotive subject. I must say it is very painful for me to make such decisions.

Mr Muntanga rose.

Mr Speaker: I will not allow further discussions on this matter.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, you mentioned that there are 150 hon. Members of Parliament and I am aware that there are eight nominated hon. Members …

Mr Speaker: I said that there are 158 hon. Members and I mentioned that there is one seat which is vacant.

Mr Muntanga: Does that reduce the number to 105 instead of 106?

Mr Speaker: Do your calculations.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You see, there are 150 constituencies, eight nominated hon. Members and I am also a Member.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: You should vote!

Mr Speaker: I will not vote. I only vote in very exceptional circumstances. Read the Constitution and Standing Orders.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, if I heard you correctly, you mentioned that for this Bill to be supported, it needs the votes of not less than two-thirds at both second and third readings.

Mr Speaker: That is correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: I am aware that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, National Assembly Bill No. 17 of 2015, is also on the Order Paper. If this particular Bill goes through at second reading, we have to vote at third reading and this means that we may not go ahead and discuss the other Bill because it may fail. If it fails at third reading, that means there will be no need to debate the other Bill.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, could I repeat myself because the Clerk is now speaking before you make a ruling. I would like to be guided. If, for argument’s sake, this Bill fails at second reading, there is still an opportunity to pass it at third reading.

Mr Speaker: No, that would be the end of business.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that if that is the position, then, we cannot go ahead and discuss the other one because it may also fail at third reading.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what it means.

Mr Speaker: This Bill you are going to vote for is a gateway.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: If you do not pass this threshold, then, that is it.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The bells have stopped ringing. So, you can consult the Clerk further.

Question that the Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2015, be read a second time, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (106)

Mrs. E. Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs A. M. Chungu
Mr S. Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. J. Lungu
Mr M. D. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Mushili Malama
Mr Mwimba Malama
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Sata
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Simuusa
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – (36)

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamudulu
Mr Hamusonde
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Konga
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J Ngoma 
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Mr P. Phiri
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – (04)

Mr Kunda
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mr Shakafuswa
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Question accordingly agreed to, with more than two-thirds of all the Members voting in the affirmative, and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to the committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 3rd December, 2015.

THE CONSTITUTION OF ZAMBIA (Amendment) BILL, 2015

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I wish to commend the Chairperson and all the members of your Committee for thoroughly scrutinising the Draft Constitution Bill. It was a job well done. Now that the Constitution of Zambia Bill has gone through, it opens the way for the House to consider the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, clause by clause.

Sir, as the House has observed, this Bill contains all the clauses as drafted by the Technical Committee on Drafting the Zambian Constitution. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government deliberately chose not to sit by itself and determine what was contentious and what was not contentious because we are merely one of the stakeholders. The stakeholders in this process are the Zambian people.

Mr Speaker, we have noted the diverse views that were expressed by those who appeared before your Committee. Some were for and others against some of the clauses. We are amenable to meet with the stakeholders to consult and decide in the best interest of the Zambian people on the way forward. As we have indicated, the Committee Stage will commence on Thursday next week. Therefore, we have ample time to sit all of us, as stakeholders, to determine what is in the best interest of the Zambian people. This is a representative democracy and we represent our constituents, including those who voted for us and those who did not vote for us. Hon. Members have constituents, therefore, whether they voted for him/her or whether they did not vote for him/her, we still represent all of them. Therefore, I want to earnestly appeal to all hon. Members not to sacrifice this occasion of opportunity of coming up with a people-driven Constitution on the altar of partisan interest. Let us put Zambia first and make a gigantic step forward as we push our democratic agenda to higher heights.

Sir, as I said earlier, it would not have been in the best interest of the nation for us to come with a White Paper. Hence, we are going to sit here and deliberate in the best interest of the nation. I want to assure the House that there are no ghosts anywhere at all because this is all clear and the Zambian people will follow this process closely.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, once again, at the risk of repeating myself, I would like to urge the House to set aside partisan interest and consider Zambia first.

With those few words, I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mweetwa: Mr Speaker, I wish to highlight some issues contained in your Committee’s report on the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015 that was referred to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights, Gender Matters and Child Affairs on Thursday, 15th October, 2015.

Sir, before I proceed, it is my sincere hope that hon. Members have taken time to read the report. So, my role is simply to highlight only the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during its deliberations.

Mr Speaker, the object of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, is to amend the Constitution of Zambia, Cap 1 of the Laws of Zambia so as to, among other things:

(a)    revise the preamble to the Constitution in order to recognise the multi-ethnic and multi-cultural character of Zambia;
 
(b)    honour and recognise freedom fighters; and 

(c)    ensure that all powers of the State are exercised in the common interest.

Further, the Bill aims to:

(a)    re-assert the supremacy of the Constitution;
 
(b)    revise the provisions on citizenship in order to permit dual citizenship;
 
(c)    provide a system of electing the President of the Republic where the winning candidate must receive more than 50 per cent of the valid votes cast;
 
(d)    provide for the election of the Vice-President as a running mate to the President; and

(e)    provide a mixed member representation system of electing hon. Members of Parliament where 150 hon. Members will be elected directly by their constituents and ninety-four will be elected based on the party-list system.

Sir, the Bill further: 

(a)    provides for the rights and obligations of political parties and establishes the political parties’ fund;
 
(b)    establishes the Court of Appeal and the Constitutional Court;
 
(c)    provides for a devolved system of governance, the institution of the chieftaincy and traditional institutions, values and principles of Public Service, and defence of national security; and
 
(d)    revises the provisions relating to public finance.

Mr Speaker, as can be seen from its object, the Bill contains provisions which are of extreme importance to the governance of this nation. In this regard, to assist it in its deliberations, your Committee invited a number of stakeholders who made both written and oral submissions.

Sir, from the interactions with the stakeholders on the ramifications of the Bill, it was evident that there was no consensus regarding some critical provisions in the Bill. The following are some of the salient provisions which the stakeholders failed to reach consensus on:

Election of the President through a Majoritarian Electoral System of at least 50 per cent of the Votes Cast

Mr Speaker, your Committee observed that Article 47(1) of the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill states that elections to the Office of President shall be conducted directly under a Majoritarian Electoral System where the winning candidate must receive more than 50 per cent of the valid votes cast. 

Sir, some stakeholders were concerned that in the recent past, none of the presidential candidates had managed to obtain 50 per cent of the votes cast. In this regard, they feared that this threshold was not achievable and would inevitably result in a re-run, which would be costly for the country. Your Committee notes that this position is in strong contrast with that of the majority of Zambians who have, for a very long time, called for the President to have attained, at least, 50 per cent of the votes cast in order to have legitimacy.

Election of Members of the National Assembly

Your Committee observes that Article 47(2) adopts a Mixed Member Electoral System for the National Assembly with one 156 elective seats and ninety-four seats based on proportional representation. While some stakeholders supported the provision, others were opposed to it. Those against the provision argued that the proportional representation segment of the system was incompatible with a democratic society in which people elected their representatives through a secret ballot. In addition, the formula for allocating seats under the segment was too complex and did not represent the popularity of the parties. They further submitted that the National Assembly would have 250 Members, which was too large and expensive for the already over-stretched national coffers.

Appointment of Cabinet Ministers from outside Parliament

Mr Speaker, Article, ...

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let us have order, both on the left and right! 

I want to follow what the hon. Member is reading. Please, continue.

Mr Mweetwa: ... 116(1) provides that the President shall appoint Ministers from persons who are not Members of Parliament. As the House is aware, the provision is in line with the submissions made by the people to a number of Constitution review processes. Your Committee observed that the majority of stakeholders who appeared before it were opposed to the appointment of Ministers outside Parliament and submitted that some countries that had employed such a system were having challenges implementing it. Those who supported the provision contended that having Ministers appointed outside Parliament would enhance the Doctrine of Separation of Powers. 

Provisions on the Judiciary

Mr Speaker, Part 8 of the Bill deals with the Judiciary. Some stakeholders expressed dissatisfaction with various provisions pertaining to the Judiciary. These include the thirty days given to the Constitutional Court to determine election petitions, the ten-year limit given to the Chief Justice and the President of the Constitutional Court, and the procedure on the removal of a Judge. The stakeholders submitted that the provisions had the potential to affect the operations and independence of the Judiciary.

The Establishment of Provincial Assemblies

Sir, Article 153 of the Bill provides for the establishment of provincial assemblies. While some stakeholders supported the provision, those against it submitted that the establishment of provincial assemblies would lead to increased bureaucracy and would be a further strain on the national coffers.

By-Elections

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that despite the public outcry for the country to do away with by-elections, which are costly to the nation, Article 57 provides for by-elections in the event of a vacancy in the office of a Member of Parliament for a constituency-based seat, mayor, council chairperson or councillor. Some stakeholders felt that the holding of by-elections was against the submissions made by members of the public on this particular matter.

Access to the Media

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that Article 50 of the Bill guarantees all political players access to the media during elections. Your Committee notes that stakeholder gave contrasting views with some welcoming the provision while others argued that it would lead to an increase in litigation as parties that alleged being denied access to the media would pursue the court, yet others submitted that it was not certain whether the provision applied to both public and private media and sought clarity on the matter.

Sir, in view of the above, it is very clear from your Committee’s observations that there is a lack of consensus among the stakeholders on these issues of great concern to the public. Your Committee, therefore, recommends that the Constitution of Zambia Amendment Bill, 2015, be withdrawn in its entirety in order to allow for further consultations.

Mr Speaker, your Committee received concerns on the lack of validation of the Bill before it was brought to the House. Further, there were some concerns on the process that has been used to bring the Bill to the House, which is contrary to what the many Constitution Review Commissions have recommended, namely a Constituent Assembly or Referendum, something that would give the citizens a direct right to make a Constitution for themselves.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Simbyakula: Mr Speaker, I want to thank all the Members for the support.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: As I indicated earlier on, this is a Constitutional Bill and in terms of Article 79(2)(b) of the Republican Constitution and Standing order No. 100 of the National Assembly, Standing Orders of 2005, provide that a Bill to amend the Constitution shall not be passed unless it is supported on Second and Third Reading Stages by the votes of not less than two-thirds of all the Members of the Assembly. 

I also further indicated earlier on that two-thirds of all the Members of the House is currently 105. However, any amendment at Committee Stage requires only a simple majority to stand as part of the Bill.

Question that the Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015, be read a second time put and the House Voted.

Ayes – (109)

Mrs Banda
Mr N. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr W. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chabala
Col. Chanda
Mr Chansa
Mr Chenda
Mr Chikwanda
Mr Chilangwa
Dr Chilufya
Mr Ching’imbu
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisala
Mr Chisopa
Mr Chitotela
Mrs Chungu
Mr Chungu
Mr Evans
Ms Kabanshi
Mr Kafwaya
Dr Kaingu
Mr Kalaba
Ms Kalima
Mr Kambwili
Mr Kampyongo
Ms Kansembe
Ms Kapata
Brig-Gen. Kapaya
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kapyanga
Mr Kasandwe
Dr Kasonde
Mr Katambo
Dr Katema
Col. Kaunda
Mrs Kawandami
Mr Konga
Mr Kosamu
Mr Kufuna
Mr Kunda
Ms Limata
Mr Lingweshi
Mr Lubinda
Dr Lungu
Col. Lungu
Mr M. D. Lungu
Prof. Luo
Mr Mabumba
Mr Malama Mushili
Mr Malama Mwimba
Mr Masumba
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mbulu
Ms Miti
Mr Monde
Mrs Mphande
Mr Mpundu
Mr Mtolo
Mr Mubukwanu
Mr Mukanga
Mr Mukata
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulenga
Mr Mumba
Mr Mushanga
Mr Musonda
Mr Musukwa
Mr Mutale
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr Mvunga
Mr Mwale
Dr Mwali
Mr Mwaliteta
Mr Mwamba
Mrs Mwanakatwe
Mr Mwango
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwewa
Mr Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Ms Ngimbu
Mr P. Ngoma
Mr Ng’onga
Mr Njeulu
Dr Phiri
Mr Phiri
Mr Sata
Dr Scott
Mr Shamenda
Mr Shuma
Mr Sichalwe
Mr Sichone
Mr Sichula
Mr Sikazwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Dr Simbyakula
Mr Simfukwe
Mr Simuusa
Prof. Willombe
Mrs Wina
Mr Yaluma
Mr Zimba
Mr Zulu

Noes – 35 

Mr Antonio
Mr Belemu
Mr Chitafu
Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamudulu
Mr Hamusonde
Dr Kalila
Mr Kasonso
Mr Katuka
Mr Lombanya
Ms Lubezhi
Mr Lufuma
Prof. Lungwangwa
Mrs Masebo
Mrs Mazoka
Mr Milambo
Mr Miyanda
Mr Miyutu
Mr Mooya
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulomba
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mutelo
Mr Mweetwa
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Ndalamei
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mr Nkombo
Mr Ntundu
Mr Pande
Mr Sianga
Mr Sing’ombe

Abstentions – 02 

Mr Shakafuswa
Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha

Question accordingly agreed to, with more than two-thirds of all the Members voting in the affirmative, and the Bill read a second time.
Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Thursday, 3rd December, 2015.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES in the 
Chair]

THE GENDER EQUITY AND EQUALITY BILL, 2015

Clause 1, 2, 3 and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 (General Powers of Minister for Achieving Gender Equity and Equality)

The Minister of Gender (Prof. Luo): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 14:
    
(a)    in line 2 by the insertion immediately after the word “Act” of a full stop; and

(b)    in lines 2 to 5 by the deletion of the words “and shall ensure that the ministry responsible for gender and the commission enforce this Act taking into account the Government’s obligation under the convention, African Protocol and SADC Protocol.”

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 6, 7 and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 9 – (Functions of Commission)

Prof. Luo: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 9, on page 17:

(i)    in line 6 by the insertion immediately after the word “Act” of a full stop; and

(ii)    in line 7 by the deletion of the words “and as the Minister may direct”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 9, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 ...
Interruptions

The Chairperson: As the time is 1915 hours ...

Laughter

The Chairperson: We shall pretend that it is 1915 hours.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

___________ 

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was considered at Committee Stage:

The Gender Equity and Equality Bill, 2015

Consideration of the Bill to be resumed on Wednesday, 26th November, 2015.

_________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

__________

The House adjourned at 1919 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 26th November, 2015.

____________________