Friday, 13th November, 2015

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the Business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 17th November, 2015, the Business of the House will commence with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into the Committee of Supply on the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

(a)    Head 80 − Ministry of General Education;

(b)    Head 65 – Ministry of Higher Education;

(c)    Head 14 – Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development; and

(d)    Head 62 – Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 18th November, 2015, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into the Committee of Supply on the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

(a)    Head 27 – Public Service Management Division;

(b)    Head 44 – Ministry of Labour and Social Security;

(c)    Head 76 – Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development; and

(d)    Head 78 – Zambia Security Intelligence Services – Office of the President.

Sir, on Thursday, 19th November, 2015, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answers, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the Second Reading Stage of the following Bills:

(a)    The Constitution of Zambia Bill, 2015; and

(b)    The Constitution of Zambia (Amendment) Bill, 2015.

Sir, afterwards, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

(a)    Head 45 – Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare;

(b)    Head 51 – Ministry of Transport and Communication;

(c)    Head 89 – Ministry of Agriculture;

(d)    Head 21 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance; and

(e)    Head 37 – Ministry of Finance.

Sir, on Friday, 20th November, 2015, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. After that, the House will deal with presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2016 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

(a)    Head 33 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry;

(b)    Head 46 – Ministry of Health;

(c)    Head 18 – Judiciary; and

(d)    Head 31 – Ministry of Justice.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

   Interruptions

___________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

ANNUAL MAINTENANCE SHUTDOWN OF INDENI

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity to make this statement …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ms Siliya: … and, through this august House, inform the nation on the 2015 annual maintenance shutdown of the Indeni Petroleum Refinery.

Sir, Zambia consumes about 36 million litres of petrol, 66 million litres of diesel and 1.4 million litres of kerosene per month. With regard to petrol and diesel, 60 per cent is produced at the refinery and 40 per cent is imported. Currently, we have fuel storage capacity that can store forty-six days of petrol, thirty-eight days of diesel and 198 days of kerosene.

As you are aware, Mr Speaker, my ministry has embarked on a programme to construct fuel depots across the country to increase the storage capacity. In view of this, before the end of this year, my ministry shall commission a 15.5 million litres deport in Solwezi. We also have a depot in Lusaka which was commissioned in August, 2013, with a capacity of 25 million litres and another depot in Mpika with a capacity of 6.5 million litres commissioned in September, 2014. We will soon commission a depot in Solwezi with a capacity of 15.5 million litres and at the end of December, 2015, we expect to commission a depot in Mongu with a capacity of 6.5 million litres. We have plans to also construct depots in Chipata, Choma and Mansa.

Mr Speaker, as you will recall, every year, the Indeni Petroleum Refinery undergoes a planned maintenance shutdown. It is mainly to regenerate the catalyst for premium production, which expires after a year of use. In addition, Indeni replaces or cleans certain parts such as columns and heat exchangers which are part of the refinery equipment. This year, the planned annual maintenance of the refinery shutdown will take place from midnight of the 15th November, 2015 to 15 December, 2015. This is a period of thirty days.

 Sir, in the past, the Indeni Refinery shutdown has been associated with public panic buying leading to the shortage of fuel. As you are aware, my ministry imports diesel and petrol to supplement the production of the Indeni Refinery. Therefore, in preparation for the shutdown, my ministry has put in place mechanisms to ensure that the supply of fuel in the country will not in any way be disrupted as a consequence of the refinery shutdown. To this effect, we have and we will continue to build sufficient fuel stocks to last the period of the refinery shutdown and beyond. 

 Mr Speaker, kindly be informed that as of 11th November, 2015, the available national stock level in the Government depots located in Ndola, Lusaka and Mpika is thirty-seven days for diesel which is 76. 3 million litres, eighteen days for petrol, which is 22.2 million litres and fifty-five days for kerosene at 2.8 million litres. Our target is to have twenty-five days stock of petrol by 15th November, 2015. 

Sir, as stated above, our target has been exceeded for diesel whose consumption volume is twice that of petrol as well as kerosene. However, we currently only have eighteen days of stock of petrol thus, the 22.2 million litres. To meet the twenty-five days stock target for petrol, we have asked the suppliers to bring in about forty-one trucks per day for petrol. Therefore, we shall have 21 days stock by 15th November, 2015. During the period of the shutdown, imports will continue to be brought in by our suppliers.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the aviation fuel (Jet A1), the oil marketing companies (OMCs) who sell the product have been importing it for their customers since June, 2015 and will continue to do so. In addition, for the liquefied petroleum gas (LPG), the Indeni Refinery has not been able to produce LPG to cater for the demand in Zambia. Therefore, distributors such as Afrox, have continued to import it for their consumers.

Sir, by this statement, it is expected that local fuel suppliers and retailers will ensure that measures are taken to avoid disruptions in supply. The Government will not take kindly to any entity that will neglect to do its part in ensuring that fuel supply continues to run smoothly in the country.

Mr Speaker, as has been in the past, the ministry wishes to appeal to all consumers to go about their normal business without any anxiety or panic as the country has enough fuel for the period of the shutdown and beyond.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichula (Nakonde): Mr Speaker, what measures has the ministry put in place over the work stoppages of the clearing agents with regard to the fuel shortage in Nakonde?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I did know that in the last few weeks, we had incidences in Nakonde to do with fuel supply which had nothing to do with the current stocks in the country. The issues came up purely because the retailers were not able to meet the demands of the OMCs with regard to the prices. The Government has ensured that by the 15th, November, 2015, when the shutdown is expected, the required stocks to carry us through the thirty days are available in the country. The importation of the commodities will also continue to ensure that the stocks do not dwindle to undesirable levels. So, do not expect the country to have any problems. I am cognisant of issues surrounding the incidents which took place in Nakonde.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform this House on the standard amount which is deducted and contributed to the funding for the strategic fuel reserves from the money paid by motorists for each litre of fuel. We have been assured by previous hon. Ministers that we would reach a stage when we would have ninety days stock in our reserves. 

 Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, if I understood the question correctly, the hon. Member is referring to issues surrounding our strategic reserves. I said that the Government has commissioned a number of depots to ensure that there are always the strategic reserves, especially in a town like Lusaka when the Indeni Refinery is going to shutdown. I also said that as of yesterday, the Government had accumulated stock of about eighteen days for petrol, over thirty days for diesel and over fifty days for kerosene. Obviously, we are quite uncomfortable with the stock we have for petrol because the comfortable numbers should be about twenty-five days cover.  To that effect, we have been holding discussions with the suppliers, especially in the last week. We have told the suppliers to increase the number of deliveries. The suppliers have told us that they will be delivering about forty-one trucks per day. With that, we expect that by the 15th November, 2015, we should have, at least, twenty-one days cover of petrol. I want to assure the nation that the investment in the depots will bear the desired fruits. We will commission the depot in Mongu by the end of this year. We have plans to open three more depots in Chipata, Mansa and Choma. This will help us to keep the strategic reserves at the acceptable levels.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, following the routine maintenance of the Indeni Refinery, which is going to be shut, sometimes people take advantage to hold on to fuel in anticipation of fuel price hikes. Should the people anticipate any fuel price hikes?

 Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member’s question is linked to two issues. The first one has to do with whether people will hold on to fuel during the period the refinery will be shutdown. I am appealing to the retailers and members of public to avoid panic buying because we are trying to ensure that there are sufficient stock for the wheels of the economy to continue running. For now, we have petrol stocks for eighteen days cover. By the time it is 15th November, 2015, we will have petrol stocks for twenty-one days cover. We will continue to import petrol in order to raise the stocks.

Sir, coming to the issues of the cost of fuel, it is important to appreciate that in a month, the Government uses between US$ 70 to 80 million to import fuel. We do know that even if fuel prices on the international market are on an all time low, the gains for our country have been eroded because of the low copper prices. The performance of our economy is strongly linked to the price of copper. So, there is a real gap in terms of revenue generation. We, together with the hon. Minister of Finance, are going round discussing issues of how, as a Government, we will continue to meet the needs of the nation such as the purchase of fuel. This is an on-going conversation. At the right time, depending on what decision is taken, I will come back to this House and inform the nation on the way forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Minister for making the people aware of what is likely to happen. A few weeks ago, Solwezi started experiencing an erratic supply of fuel. Could it be that the North-Western Province is also anticipating price hikes due to the depreciation of the kwacha? What could be the cause of the shortage of fuel in Solwezi?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, just like in the case of Nakonde, I am aware that about two weeks ago, there were some fuel shortages in Solwezi. My understanding is that this has nothing to do with the supply levels in the country. The shortage was due to issues between the OMCs and the retailers. Obviously, as the Government, we always get concerned when citizens and businesses cannot access the commodity easily. I know that a number of retailers and OMCs have asked to meet with me to discuss their issues. I hope that in the business circles of the fuel commodity, there shall continue to be smooth transactions between the retailers and the OMCs.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) is an essential element in households, given the energy crisis that we are in, yet there is a critical shortage of the same gas on the market. I would like to find out whether the Government is putting measures in place to facilitate for Afrox Zambia and any other company that supplies this essential commodity to ensure that there is enough supply on the market.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I know that currently, Indeni is not producing the LPG. This has been the case since June, 2015 and the company has resorted to expecting the consumers to be supplied the commodity by other companies such as Afrox Zambia. Even when Indeni was producing LPG, only 20 per cent of it was being used locally. Clearly, as I said yesterday when I presented the ministerial statement on energy, we are all being faced with a situation whereby we have to explore the use of other sources of energy, especially for heating. Clearly, gas is one of the sources of energy that we have to look at. I met Indeni management a few days ago. They were talking to me about some of the plans and investment programmes that they have to ensure that they can be able to supply gas in the country. However, as I said, there are a number of fuel processes that must happen to make sure that this gas is available as close to the people as possible. These are the issues that I said the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Energy and Water Development will actively pursue so that gas is not seen just as a commodity used by a few business houses, but also that it can even be used at household level as long as it is delivered in a safe manner.

I thank you, Sir.

_______

HER HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT AND MINISTER OF DEVELOPMENT PLANNING’S QUESTION TIME

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, I would like Her Honour the Vice-President to, very clearly, state the Government’s position on the issue of quasi-Government institutions paying for adverts in the newspapers to congratulate the President on his birthday.

Sir, in today’s edition of the Daily Mail, there is a birthday message for the President from the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA). There is also a birthday message for the President from the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS) and another message from the Zambia National Service (ZNS). We all want to wish the President a happy birthday, however, belated.

Mr Speaker, is it in order for the Government to use or to allow overzealous chief executive officers to waste resources in such a manner?

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, do not debate while seated. I can see you and clearly identify your voices.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning (Mrs Wina): Mr Speaker, this practice has been there for as long as I can remember. I think it was started in the One-Party State. It was even exaggerated in the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) Government. However, this is a situation which can be changed if there is a general outcry. I know for sure that this has been a tradition. In fact, during the MMD Government, I saw very little of these advertisements. The frequency of the advertisements has even been lesser in the Patriotic Front (PF) Government. The advertisement congratulating Zambia for her Independence Anniversary are different from the ones being referred to by the hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Speaker, there are some Zambians who are languishing in prisons of foreign countries. In particular, there is a Zambian who was jailed in China for drug offences.  This woman is innocent. She is only in prison because she was duped by someone.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Ms Imenda: Sir, is the Government aware of this particular Zambian, who is languishing in a jail in China for a drug offence she did not commit?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, I am aware of some Zambians who are languishing in prisons in other countries. Let me take this opportunity to warn Zambians who, through their naivety, may end up carrying drugs which are not allowed in those countries. This is more so for women. Women have fallen victim to drug traffickers. As a woman, it will not help you to carry drugs because you will end up in foreign prisons.

Sir, there are some countries which Zambia has signed reciprocity agreements with under which the exchange of prisoners is done. Usually, Zambians remain in prisons of those countries where these agreements do not exist. Zambian embassies in such countries usually intervene on behalf of the prisoners by discussing with the foreign Governments to ensure that they observe the human rights of the prisoners. It is up to the families of those incarcerated to help the prisoners, especially the women, to desist from engaging themselves in these activities which will lead them ending up in foreign prisons. Zambia, as a Government, is very keen on helping Zambians who find themselves in these situations. We are always in dialogue with countries where Zambian nationals are held in prisons.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning recently visited India and the United Kingdom (UK). Can she inform this House and the nation at large what benefits will be derived from that trip?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, yes, I led a delegation to the Third India-Africa Forum Summit (IAFS) which took place in New Delhi, India from 26th October to 30th October, 2015. The summit is a very important venue as it provides a framework for co-operation between Africa and India as well as between India and Zambia in particular. We had an opportunity to hold bilateral discussions with the Indian Prime Minister. In addition, we had an opportunity to participate in the India-Africa Business Forum. It was at this forum that we engaged with investors and were able to showcase Zambia’s investment opportunities.

Mr Speaker, since India is an economic powerhouse, it is very important for Zambia to co-operate with it. I think India is now ranked number three in Asia in terms of the strongest economy after China and Japan. As such, it is very important to strengthen trade relations between India and Zambia. Hon. Members will remember that through this co-operation, Zambia was able …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order, on the left!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … to access funding to finance the construction of 650 health posts around the country. In addition to that, there have been many …

Hon. Opposition Members: No! Time!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: If hon. Members want to prove this, they can, please, visit the Ministry of Finance and get the figures and statistics as to how we are co-operating with India in the area of …

Hon. Opposition Members: Time!

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, our co-operation with India can even help hon. Members individually.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Some of them are businessmen and women.

Mr Kambwili: Ema Vice-President aya.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, I know that some of them want to invite investors to partner with in their businesses. The Government will continue to bring investors in the country so that the people can benefit from increased investments.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Panning have, on the Floor of this House, emphatically urged the people to get National Registration Cards (NRCs) in various parts of the country. However, what is happening right now is that people who are over twenty-three years old are being denied the opportunity to get NRCs on account of being over age. What is the Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s directive to the officers in the field on this matter? In many parts of this country, the problem is that the district headquarters are too far away from where villagers are. I would like Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning to give instructions to the Ministry of Home Affairs officers to allow people, regardless of their age, to get NRCs in various areas.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, to obtain an National Registration Card (NRC) is a privilege.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, it is a right!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: It is a privilege for particularly …

Hon. Opposition Member: No!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, can you, please, …

Mr Speaker: Your Honour the Vice-President, please resume your seat.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning resumed her seat.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, we will not proceed in that fashion. It is not possible. We would like to maximise the thirty minutes for Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s Question Time. You will not maximise it if you proceed in that fashion. If there are issues regarding the responses, follow-up with a question. It is just as simple as that.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, I said to own an NRC is a right and privilege.

Laughter 

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: That cannot be denied. Those who come to registration centres and are over twenty-five years old are sometimes asked to prove that they are Zambians. That is when they have been accorded the services that they need. However, some people who are over thirty years old have claimed to be Zambians. Now, where were they all these years for them not to have obtained these cards?

Mr Speaker, I have said before that issuing an NRC entails risk taking for the country. If we go on a free-for-all registration of foreigners, we run a risk of exposing the country to dangerous security situations. However, the department responsible will ensure that as many Zambians as possible are captured in this exercise. Those who are over twenty, provided they bring information pertaining to their legitimacy as Zambians, I think they will be taken care of.

Mr Speaker, I have received information to the effect that there are some areas which are registering under age children. This is causing great concern on the part of the Government because when this is found out, those children will be disadvantaged for the future. Therefore, we urge politicians to help screen and scrutinise this exercise so that we do not put our children in trouble.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Your Honour, Ikeleng’i is now receiving rains which this country needs. Unfortunately, the rains have come with a disaster. The roofs of teachers’ houses have been blown off. Some of the bridges have been washed away while the other ones have remained in a bad state. Since the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) falls under the Office of Her Honour the Vice-President, what is it doing about this situation in Ikeleng’i because for four years going into five years now nothing has been done? What is her office doing to help the poor people in Ikeleng’i in Mwinilunga?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) is doing its best to repair some of these blown-off roofs and also repair many bridges and schools in the country. There are over 1,500 schools which need to be worked on. It is not possible for the DMMU with its limited resources to cover the country in one year or even two years. All the disasters which have been brought to the attention of the DMMU will be taken care of in due course. I urge the hon. Members of Parliament when working with the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Committees to stop giving contracts to people who are not qualified to build strong structures. Let them ensure that the schools or clinics which are built are strong. That way, the structures will endure for a long time. As for the situation in Ikeleng’i, we will look into the matter and see how urgent some of the problems at the schools are.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweetwa (Choma): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning the position of this Patriotic Front (PF) Government on the enjoyment of fundamental freedoms and human rights such as the right to assembly. Not too long ago, the United Party for National Development (UPND) on the Copperbelt applied to hold public rallies after which the police agreed but, later on, reversed its decision. Based upon what the police officers said, it seems that rallies have been banned on the Copperbelt Province for the whole month of November.

Hon. Muntanga handed over a document to Mr Mweetwa.

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, today, as I speak, I have here in my hands the letter from the Copperbelt Province Police Force Division to the UPND. As I speak, right now, the UPND had written to ask for permission to host a peaceful public rally in Kafue. That request was denied.

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Interruptions

Mr Mweetwa: Sir, why do they do this to us? What do they want the people of Zambia to do in order for them to enjoy their rights which are entrenched in the Zambian Constitution? Is this a testimony that they fear us going out to the public because we will tell the people about the many failures of this Patriotic Front (PF) Administration, especially the crumbling of the economy?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, I see that the campaign has already started in the House.

Laughter

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

Mr Livune: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, whenever a request is made for a meeting by the United Party for National Development (UPND), Patriotic Front (PF) or Forum for Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD)…

Interruptions

Mr Belemu: It is notification, madam.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … usually the police will assess the security situation on the ground ...

Hon. UPND Members: Ah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … and make a decision.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: So, if the meetings or the rallies on the Copperbelt have been stopped, there must be a good reason for that.

Mr Mukanga: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, I am not aware of the Kafue Rally. I know that every Zambian has the freedom of assembly, association and speech. In fact, this is one of the countries where people enjoy more freedoms when compared to other countries in Africa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, I invite hon. Members of Parliament to visit some of the countries even in our region so that they can understand what I am talking about.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: I am not allowing any points of order during this session.

Mr Livune: Iwe, Jean, sit down.

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am forced to take Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning to an issue she has already talked about because I have proof that the police do not want us to hold meetings. This is what the police said in a letter to the United Party for National Development (UPND). The police said that: “You are, therefore, advised to shift your activities to next month.” That means our activities should be held in December, 2015. They do not want our activities to take place in the month of November. By banning political activities in the country, …

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: … they are trying to turn this country into a one party state.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, why are those in Government …

Ms Kapata: On a point of order!

Mr Muntanga: … showing so much cowardice by banning political activities in the country with their letters. I will lay the letters on the Table.

Ms Kapata: On point of order!

Mr Muntanga: Why is this so?

Ms Kapata: On a point of order!

Mr Mbewe: Lay yourself on the Table!

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, let us not turn politics into an arena of confrontation …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … and provocation.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, just holding a meeting in order to provoke somebody else …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … will not help us in any way.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, we know very well that the Copperbelt is experiencing a lot of challenges.

Mr Mukanga: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, for a political party to take advantage of that situation is completely unfair.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Your Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, please resume your seat.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Sir, political rallies can take place, perhaps, somewhere else. I do not know the reason the police advanced. I can guess that one of the reasons is that of the security concerns …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … on the Copperbelt.

I thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, up to now, some farmers have not been paid for the maize they supplied to the Government. When will the farmers be paid their dues?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, as far as I know, most of the farmers in the country …

Mr Livune: Some farmers.

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: … have been paid their dues. If there are some farmers who are waiting for the payment for last season’s harvest, I am sure the hon. Minister of Agriculture will come to the House to explain what has caused the delay.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Sir, in a presentation made to the investment bankers and to airlines, Boeing and Airbus, as reported in the media, the Government has proposed the acquisition of the new long haul G5 President’s jet …

Mr Mbewe: Uh!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: … on account that it is not good for a Republican President to spend time waiting in transit lounges when travelling by commercial flights. Your Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, could you indicate to the House and the nation at large the logic behind this move, given that it would cost over US$50 million in the face of mounting debt, depreciation of the Zambian Kwacha and economic meltdown?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, Zambia is now becoming famous for speculation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, people are beginning to adopt speculative information as gospel truth. As far as I know, this Government has no plans to procure a jet for the President. We have a bulky Yellow Book. If you can peruse through the Yellow Book and show me where that money is coming from, then I will agree with you. However, for now, I would like to state that the Government has no plans to buy a jet. 

I thank you, sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, a few weeks ago, former Republican President, Mr Rupiah Banda, requested the Government to pay him money in lieu of constructing him a retirement house. May I know whether the Government is considering his request?

Mr Kambwili: Tamwakwata ama question?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, this question was answered ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: ... last month and has also appeared in the newspapers several times. The answer that we gave to the House the last time still stands.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, it is a known fact that the Constitution Amendment Bill is before this House at Committee Stage. It was brought by the Patriotic Front (PF). Why has the PF failed to appear before this Committee to make a submission? Is it trying to kill its own baby?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) is not trying to kill the Constitution Bill. It is a political party and not the Government. Therefore, if the PF decided not to send someone to the Committee, I do not know what could have transpired.

Mr Muntanga: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Perhaps, it will still come to give its evidence since the Committee is still in session.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the voter registration exercise ended two days ago and, according to a statement from the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ), it is going to be extended in seven districts. However, Kalabo is not mentioned amongst the districts where there will be an extension, yet, there is a ward called Siluwe where no officers have gone to issue the National Registration Cards (NRCs) or voter’s cards. Is it the intention of this Government to disenfranchise the people of Siluwe and Liuwa?

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, the question has been overtaken by events because there will be an extension of the registration exercise for twenty-one days for the whole country that will include Kalabo, Liuwa, Kazungula and Washishi for that matter.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, for the twenty-one days extension of voter registration to be helpful to the people of Kalabo, what measures will the Government put in place to enhance voter registration in order for it to be a success?  

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, the good thing about this second round is that the NRC issuance as well as the voter registration teams will move together. In addition, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) will go back to the different parts of the country in March, 2016, to mop up some of the people who will not be captured in this 21 day extension. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, I am aware that Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, the whole lot of her, will travel to Mapatizya on 11th November, 2015, to hand over a tractor. Will her moving into Mapatizya help facilitate the payment of farmers?

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: Mr Speaker, I have not yet received that invitation. I would have loved to visit Mapatizya.

Mr Livune: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning: The invitation letter has not reached my office yet.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members indicated.

Mr Speaker: I have exhausted the list.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: That is rigging.

Mr Speaker: I have run out of names.

__________ 

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWERS

GOVERNMENT ASSETS

168. Mr Mbewe (Chadiza) asked the Minister of Finance:

(a)    what the total value of the following Government assets was as of 31st August, 2015:

    (i)    real estate;

    (ii)    motor vehicles; and

    (iii)    fixtures and fittings; and

(b)    what the annual depreciation rate of the assets above was, as of the same date.

The Deputy Minister of Finance (Mr Mvunga): Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to acknowledge the valued question from the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza. Secondly, as I answer this question, I want to state that the financial year of the Republic of Zambia is from 1st January to 31st December. So, when you ask us questions like this, we make an effort to answer them, based on the guidance from Mr Speaker last time that we should allow hon. Members to ask us questions. However, this is a very difficult question to answer because we cannot have Government revaluing its assets every month. That is an impossible task.

Mr Speaker, the Government’s financial year starts from January to December. A financial report is prepared every after each financial year. The financial reports are prepared based on revenue and expenditure of its financial year and are not cumulative. This makes it difficult to ascertain the acquisitions of the Government assets in any month apart from the end of a Government’s financial year. According to the financial reports for the past five years, the total value of the Government non-financial assets which are not cumulative are as follows: 

    Year    Asset    Value

    2010    Real Estates    K657.12
        20 motor Vehicles    K52.22
        Fixtures and fittings    K241.8
        Grand total    K965.52

Mr Speaker, for the sake of clarity and, for the hon. Member, with due respect, these figures are stated in millions.

    2011    Real Estate    K867.03
        Motor Vehicles    K192.30
        Fixtures and fittings    K293.17
        Grand total    K1,352.50

    2012    Real Estate    K45.19
        Motor Vehicles    K245.77
        Fixtures and Fittings    K3.62
        Grand total    K294.58

    2013    Real Estate    K122.83
        Motor Vehicles    K118.46
        Fixtures and Fittings    K6.04
        Grand total    K247.33

    2014    Real Estate    K58.78
        Motor Vehicles    K339.52
        Fixtures and Fittings    K1.73
        Grand total    K400.03

Mr Speaker, the figures in the financial report are based on the market price of the items. I should hasten to say that the Ministry of Finance can only report based on the financial year end. I am not able to give the House the figures for 2015 because the financial year is still in progress. In order to have a comprehensive total value of Government assets, the Government has, in the midst of difficulties and challenges, embarked on a valuation exercise and compilation of an inventory of the Government assets in ministries, provinces, and agencies, to ascertain the value of the Government’s real estate. At this juncture, let me break away from giving my natural answer. The Government acquires properties and assets on a daily basis. So, I have not given an excuse not to give the figures for 2015. I cannot tell you what the Government acquired last month or what it will acquire next month because the 2015 financial year has not ended. Everything we are debating is in the Yellow Book. This valuation exercise is expected to take some time, and will be extended to missions abroad, with the guidance of the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs. The Government has established that it is more expensive to rent properties for our embassy staff than to acquire property. The Government will not spend any more money on rent. We have negotiated with banks in foreign countries to finance the purchase of properties. The inventory compilation will include on-going construction works across all ministries. I want my fellow hon. Ministers to understand this. Once this exercise is completed, the Asset Register will provide a total value of the Government assets, and will be amended from time to time. 

Mr Speaker, the annual depreciation rate used by the Government for real estate is 2 per cent per annum, and 25 per cent for both motor vehicles and fixtures and fittings. These rates are based on international reporting standards, which have been adopted worldwide. So, we have not adopted standards which we just dreamt of. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I am not an economist, ...

Mr Mutelo: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

A point of order is raised. 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, yesterday, in Lukulu, Patriotic Front (PF) cadres ran amok and broke the windows of the council chamber, which is sometimes used as a Subordinate Court. They did this in full view of police officers. They were angry with the Permanent Secretary (PS) for doing his duty. The PF cadres were allegedly sponsored by some civil servants. They were given money to buy drinks and riot. The PS had difficulty performing his duties in that place. 

Mr Speaker, is the PF Government in order to let this happen? Recently, we saw some hon. Ministers being chased by PF cadres, and yesterday, the cadres in Lukulu gave the PS a difficult time. Is the Government in order to let the PF cadres behave like this, and not say anything about it? Very soon, this situation will become uncontrollable, if we keep allowing cadres to such things. Nothing has been done to the PF cadres who rioted in Lukulu. 

Mr Speaker, I seek your serious ruling. 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Firstly, the problem I have, hon. Member for Lukulu West, is that your point of order is rather vague, in terms of accounting. It is quite vague, for your colleagues on the right to be accountable for it. Secondly, assuming that you were specific in your point of order, I would still have urged you to file in a question so that your colleagues on your right can be given an opportunity to establish all those allegations you have made. This is not something that can be resolved impromptu. So, file in a question and, in your question, be specific because when we receive questions, we read them and then identify the relevant ministries to address them to. The “Patriotic Front Government” is a generic term. It does not help us as presiding officers, and the Clerks-at-the-Table. That is my ruling. 

The hon. Member for Chadiza may continue. 

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I am not an economist, but I appreciate the language which the hon. Deputy Minister used to answer the question. The hon. Deputy Minister said that it was very difficult for him to gather the information for this question. Do the Government ministries produce monthly or quarterly reports on finances to help the hon. Deputy Minister organise information properly? Does the Government have any plans to sell its real estate properties, motor vehicles, and fixtures and fittings to obtain liquid cash so that that money can assist the Government to fund ministries which are under-funded? 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, let me try to simply say this. In your household, hon. Member, you know how much money you spend, and how much money you earn. It is the same with the Government. A financial year is governed by a Companies Act, which stipulates when financial reports should be made. That does not prevent the company from accounting on a monthly basis. So, to answer your first question yes, the Government does receive monthly reports about the financial status of the country. In fact, the Government is more efficient than people realise. Not even private companies are more efficient than the Government. We look at cash flows every week and understand them. Hon. Dr Musokotwane, as a former Minister of Finance, can attest to this. The statutory reporting is simply for auditing purposes. So, the management of this country is run on a weekly basis, boss. 

Your second question was …

Mr Speaker: There was only one question. The other was a comment and you need not bother about it.  The question …

Mr Mvunga: Sir, may I comment on it?

Mr Speaker: Wait. 

Dr Mwali: No, do not go there. 

Mr Speaker: There is only one question here: Do you have any plans to liquidate the assets? 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, this is a very difficult question to answer. The person asking the question should understand that assets are there to drive growth. So, how do we liquidate assets? How do we liquidate roads or hospitals? 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, resume your seat. 

Mr Mvunga resumed his seat. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, Question 168, (a) (i) refers to real estate, (ii) refers to motor vehicles and (iii) to fixtures and fittings. The question is: Do you have any plans to sell those items so that you raise money in order to fund underfunded projects? That is his question. 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, we would be irresponsible, as a Government, to liquidate fixtures and fittings for the sake of funding underfunded projects. What we should be looking at are the revenue opportunities that we have, to raise funding for future opportunistic development for the country. So, I cannot understand why I would be asked to sell my kitchen in order to fund projects. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mbewe: Oh-oh!

Mr Speaker: You may not understand what he said. All he wants to find out is whether there is a plan. That is all. 

Laughter 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, there is no plan to sell fixtures and fittings to fund Government projects.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Very well. Hon. Member for Mpongwe, you may ask your question.  

  Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, I have difficulties following the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister. 

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. 

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this chance to raise a serious point of order. Sir, President Edgar Chagwa Lungu, was elected on 15th January…

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: I beg your pardon, on 20th January, 2015, as President. As President, elected by the people of Zambia, he has the right to move around and address the issues that affect the people who voted him into power. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, is the United Party for National Development (UPND), in order to come to this House with a police report that stopped them from holding rallies and cry foul? We have not yet started campaigning. Campaigns will start in 2016 and we still have a long way. Parliament has not even been dissolved. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ms Kapata: The President has the right to go to every province and talk to his people. 

Sir, I need your serious ruling on this issue. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

We are national leaders. This subject was raised during the Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning’s Question Time and Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning responded. I do not think that there is any need for us to go back to this matter. It goes without saying that the President has the liberty to travel wherever he wants to and whenever. This is not in contest. 

Hon. Member for Mpongwe, you may proceed. 

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I had difficulties appreciating the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister, regarding Question 168. 

Sir, I am aware that the valuation of council property and everything therein is done by the Government Valuation Department under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Hon. Minister, in assessing real estate, what mode of valuation does the Government use?  Do you make use of the councils’ valuation roles or you have your own system of valuing the Government real estate? 

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, the Government has a Lands and Valuation Department which evaluates properties. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Milambo (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, picking up from where Hon. Namulambe left off, would it not be prudent for the hon. Minister to tell us how often these assets are valued and revalued, for us to appreciate them?

Mr Mvunga: Mr Speaker, these assets are valued and revalued periodically. At the moment, I think that three years is the minimum period. It could, however, be extended to five years, depending on the kind of property being valued. 

I thank you, Sir. 

KATIMA MULILO BORDER POST

169. Mr Sianga (Sesheke) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when the construction of the security fence at the Katima Mulilo Border Post would be completed;

(b)    what the total cost of the project was;

(c)    how much money had been spent on the project as of September, 2015; and
(d)    who was financing the project. 

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, the construction of the 1 km security fence at Katima Mulilo Border Post will re-commence in the first quarter of 2016 and will be done within six months. The estimated cost is K5 million. About K30 million was spent to raise a few columns, in 2007, before the challenges arose on accessibility. The Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) is financing this project. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the response he gave me last time over the Livingstone/Sesheke Road that it is not busy also relates to this border, which has taken so long to be completed. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, if the question is not clear, please, say so. 

Dr Mwali: No, Sir, it is not.  

Mr Speaker: I gathered as much. Please, hon. Member, repeat your question so that it is clear to the hon. Minister. 

Mr Sianga: Mr Speaker, last time, the hon. Minister said that they were reluctant to work on the Livingstone/Sesheke Road because it is not busy. I would like to find out from him whether the delay in the completion of this security fence at the border post is as a result of the border post not being busy.

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, the delay in the completion of the construction of the security fence has to do with the problem we had in accessing the facility. The original site plan intended to have the access road through somebody’s property, who refused us access. Hence, we had to use a longer route, which exhausted all the money that was allocated for the project. 

I thank you, Sir. 

____ 

BILLS

REPORT STAGE

The Employment (Amendment) Bill, 2015

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Tuesday, 17th November, 2015.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY 

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – K679,911,344).

(Consideration resumed)

Ms Imenda (Luena): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to continue my debate. Let me firstly recap what I said yesterday, I said that we live under austerity ...

Mr Muntanga interjected. 

Ms Imenda: Sir, may I have your protection.

The Chairperson: You are disturbing her. Let her debate.

Laughter 

Ms Imenda: Mr Chairperson, I said that we need to look at ways to reduce our foreign affairs costs so that we can release some funds to deal with other economic issue, in our country. I was about to talk about the third area which I thought we could use to get resources to help us during this period of austerity.

Sir, I had stated that we, as a country, helped in the liberation of our Southern African neighbours who were Namibia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Angola and, then, we also helped in the emancipation of South Africa. Zambia suffered economically because of supporting them. For example, in the case of Zimbabwe, our infrastructure was bombed and destroyed. Zimbabwe, which was Southern Rhodesia, was under the British rule even though there was a rebellion by the Ian Smith Regime under the Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI).

Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to try to pursue Britain to compensate Zambia for the infrastructure which was destroyed because that territory was still under the British rule. This is one of the ways in which Britain needs to take responsibility. After Zimbabwe got Independence, Zambia’s economy was partially limping and Britain, among other countries in the West, came to provide aid, which we had to pay back. I believe that Britain owes Zambia for the destruction of our economic structure and I want the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to engage the British Government to compensate us for our infrastructure instead of giving us loans to reconstruct our infrastructure. Let it write off the loans which it gave us and give us our money back because that economic infrastructure was destroyed by a territory under its jurisdiction. 

Sir, even though there was an internal rebellion in Southern Rhodesia, it was still a British Colony. The Lancaster House talks took place in Britain in 1960 so that Britain could give Independence to Zimbabwe. Britain cannot absolve itself from that responsibility. My suggestion is that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should engage them to refund us for that. 

Mr Chairperson, one of the other issues that I want to talk about has got to do with what I asked Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning this morning. When an American citizen is imprisoned anywhere in the world, the Americans will fight tooth and nail until that person is freed, whether that person broke the law or not. I would like to the Government, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, to also fight for our nationals who are also imprisoned in other countries. Let us also fight tooth and nail to make sure they come back. 

Sir, we may have warned them about certain things. If you warn your child and he or she gets injured in the process, you do not refuse to take the child to the hospital. You still have the responsibility, as a parent, to take that child to the hospital. We, as a country, also need to follow up on our citizens, especially the one in China which came to my attention because the girl involved was duped. The girl in question did not carry drugs, per say, but one of these sophisticated criminals left the suitcase with her on the queue and ran away. When the bag was found with her, she was arrested. Let us fight to free that citizen.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imenda: Lastly, let us help our fellow African brothers and sisters. There are places like Libya and South Sudan which need Africa’s help to bring them to the negotiating table. They are exasperated and desperate for a solution so that their countries can get back to peace. Let us play the same role we played to liberate Southern Africa to bring warring factions to the negotiating table so that they can experience peace. I am talking about the African countries such as Libya and South Sudan. I spoke to some of them and they said that they really need African help. They want to come to the negotiating table but, in order to do that, somebody has to take the lead. Let Zambia and Africa as a whole, through the Africa Union (AU), take that lead.

Mr Chairperson, with those words, I support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I have looked through the Budget and found that this ministry needs more money because the job which it has to do is quite big. That is the unit that should sell Zambia to other countries. If we made use of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs properly, with the various embassies that we have in many countries, we would reduce on the trips that we usually make. Most of the trips for the negotiations that high-powered delegations in Zambia go for could be minimised if we used the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the embassies properly. I am not saying that people should not travel. I am saying that the trips should be minimised. When the hon. Minister of Finance is travelling, he should know that there are attachés at the embassies. He should not go with all the hon. Ministers. I think it is important that we focus on using the Ministry of Foreign Affairs properly. 

Sir, I want to tell the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs that those in the Foreign Service must be properly oriented when they are sent to other countries. They should know that they are there to represent Zambia. When they are in other countries, they should take keen interest in knowing which Zambians have travelled to the countries where they are.  Even if it is a leader from the Opposition who has travelled, it does not matter. They should take care of him or her just like any other person. They should not only just jump when they hear that there is an hon. Minister or hon. Deputy Minister going to those countries. This should not be the only time these people should be seen to be working. 

Sir, we have gone to conferences where when the embassy staff for other countries know that there are delegations from their countries, they come to the conference centre to meet their people. For our embassies, you would find that no one appears.  Sometimes, even if they come, it is like they are being bothered. I, therefore, want the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to know about this. When these people leave Zambia to represent us in other countries, they have to represent Zambia in whichever circumstance. This can only be done correctly if the embassy staff recognise the fact that everybody needs to be cared for. 

Mr Chairperson, we heard what the other hon. Member said about a certain Zambian who has been arrested in another country for drug trafficking. We all heard when the hon. Member who seems to have more details about how the suitcase was carried elaborated on the issue. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I would, therefore, urge the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to take keen interest in knowing what is happening to every Zambian who is in a foreign country. There are cases whereby there are certain business opportunities for Zambians in other countries which the people at the embassies know about, but choose not to inform our Zambian community. They instead enter into some agreements to do the same contracts or businesses. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should advise his staff. They are not there to strike deals for themselves, but for Zambia. If there is any business opportunity, they should get in touch with the Zambian people so that what is there could come here for the benefit of everybody. When the Hon. Mr Speaker, the Hon. Deputy Speaker or the Mr Deputy Chairperson of Committees travel out, they should recognise this fact. 

Sir, I have also noticed that when we go outside the country, there are more partisan alliances in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I urge the hon. Minister to orient these people. When some of us travel out there, we go to represent Zambia. Unfortunately, when we get to certain countries, we feel completely lost because of the conduct of the embassy staff there. This is because they do not recognise us. When these people are oriented properly, they will be able to recognise us immediately. When we get to some countries, some would even say, “We only know that you are an hon. Member from Zambia. Which party do you belong to?” They are even make the people in those countries know that they are partisan. 

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is a good friend of mine because I have travelled with him before. I do not want to mention names because those people are not here to defend themselves. I just want to say that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has a lot of work to do. If all those embassies worked well, Zambia would be well represented.

Sir, sometimes, you will find that the people who are sent to these embassies are unable to speak on behalf of Zambians. Only embassy staff who are knowledgeable should be selected to go and represent the country. I am afraid to say that some of the people in the Foreign Service even struggle to speak English. Others will even say that they can use any Zambian local language for communication purposes. You will find that they speak in vernacular languages such that some people will not even understand what they are talking about. Why should they do that? Even if I can speak a good number of Zambian languages, I do not expect someone who is representing Zambia to speak to me in his or her mother tongue just because I come from Zambia. Zambia is not like Tanzania where the people only use one language which is Swahili. In Korea, they also use one language. Here we have seventy-two tribes and use seven major languages. This is acceptable in Zambia and we have lived like this for a long time.

Mr Chairperson, some of the foreigners appreciate how we live in Zambia. In Zambia, with all these several tribes, we have all become cousins to one another. Some people do not even know that we have so many tribes. In other countries, it matters even whom you stay with. Under the First Republic, we tried very hard to deal with the problem of tribalism. Unfortunately, the staff in the Foreign Service is trying to build what is not good for Zambia. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to advise his staff in the embassies to use English. If they do not know how to speak English, they should come back home. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: They should come and talk to us in local languages here. Ngati ufuna ku kamba chiNyanja, ulefwayo uku landa ichi Bemba, uya kwambaula  chiTonga, come back home.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Eba ubata kubulela mwa siLozi, taha kwa hae.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, this means that, “If they want to use local languages, they should come back home.” They should not struggle to become local in Malaysia, Kenya, Tanzania …

Mr Mufalali: In Ghana!

Mr Muntanga: … or Ghana.  

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Sir, that is not correct. This is an important ministry. I have said that it is important to be cautious with the way we represent Zambia when we go to other countries. 

Mr Chairperson, we should retaliate by charging expensive visa fees. Why should we be kind to them when they come to our country, but when we go to their countries, they want to charge us exorbitant visa fees? Why should they be charging us in that manner? The hon. Minister should go and negotiate with such countries. We are doing a lot of business in India. Therefore, why should we wait for three to six months for Indian visas to come out, yet if we want to go to Bangladesh, which is just next to India, we will just walk in there freely. Why should it be so? If they want to be rough on us, we should do the same to them. It is the responsibility of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to deal with this issue. I am concerned that the High Commission for our coloniser, the Britain has shifted to South Africa. If people need to get visas to go to Britain, they will need to go to South Africa because they will need to be interviewed personally. The same thing should be done to those who come to Zambia. We are not criminals for them to take our thumb prints. However, when they come here, they are treated well and even use the red carpet, yet they are the ones who are criminals.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, when they are rough towards us, we should also do the same to them. The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs should bring up this matter at the Commonwealth Summit Meeting. It is difficult for people from Ghana or Nigeria to go to South Africa, yet they are all Commonwealth countries. If there is no harmony among these countries, then there is no need to have this organisation in place. These are the basics that we should be able to understand, especially within Africa. Why should it be so easy for me to go to Sri Lanka or Malaysia without applying for a visa, yet if I want to go to an African country such as Nigeria or Ghana, I need to apply for a visa? What is wrong with Africans? They tried to divide us by colonising us. Why should we continue acting like we are still colonised?

Mr Chairperson, more money must be allocated to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs because the hon. Minister has an important job to do. If he does a good job, Zambia’s image will be enhanced and his staff will represent Zambia correctly.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I have a few comments to make on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Firstly, the hon. Minister needs to re-profile his ministry and ensure that it is competitive. I think he indicated in his policy statement that it is time for this country to re-position itself. I would not agree more with that because we really need to re-position this country. However, I also appeal to the Government to re-position the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I am aware that there is an hierarchy of ministries and those on top include Ministries of Finance and Defence. With globalisation taking centre stage, I think the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should also take up a top position.

Sir, in the American system, the influence is actually vested in the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs or Secretary of State. Amidst this crisis in the country and the economic challenges we are experiencing globally, we have to put in place the right people in certain offices. Hon. Muntanga also indicated what we ought to do. It is high time the Government stopped giving jobs to people who are not qualified. This is because we do not require the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to travel everywhere to represent this country. The Foreign Service needs qualified people in certain offices who will be able to clearly articulate issues at international fora and be respected.

Sir, way back, diplomats were highly respected. I remember one of the …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTES in the
 Chair]

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I was just emphasising the point that there was a time when ambassadors or high commissioners were highly respected. I have in mind Mr Vernon Mwaanga and Mr Kopolo who was once a headmaster, whom I think Hon. Panji remembers very well. The people whom I have mentioned are still highly respected in the diplomatic circles. I think that is how it should be. We should not send party cadres to foreign missions because the environment is not conducive for them anymore. Those who are sent there must be qualified enough to do their job effectively.

Mr Speaker, I would like to ride on the words of Hon. Muntanga that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should take keen interest in ensuring the rights of our citizens are protected.

Sir, I am also aware that certain countries have placed restrictions on the type of businesses which foreigners can engage. If you went on the streets, you would realise that the Zimbabweans are able to drive from Tanzania through Zambia into Zimbabwe. However, the Zambians are not allowed to drive their vehicles which are off loaded at Bay Bridge or Durban. The hon. Minister should ensure that our people, especially those who are engaged in small businesses, are protected because they are facing many challenges. In Zambia, it is free for all. Zimbabweans or Tswanas are able to move freely, yet when Zambians go through Botswana, they are told to put their vehicles on the carriers and pay expensive fees.

 Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I want the hon. Minister to take note of is that we need to respect our nationality. What is going on in the border towns is that certain individuals with some influence in those areas are forcing foreigners to get National Registration Cards (NRCs). We cannot afford the issuance of the NRCS through the District Commissioners (DCs) to increase the number of voters. It is not right and must be stopped by all cost. 

Sir, in the midst of the economic crisis that we are in, as a country, the hon. Minister who is also the chief adviser to the President should ensure the number of officials that accompany the President on the foreign trips is reduced.

 Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

You may continue.

 Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the entourage which accompanied the President to the recent meeting at the United Nations Assembly was highly publicised in the media. Countries like Malawi were pointing at Zambia claiming that it had a bigger entourage to the United Nations (UN) meeting. Although Malawi carried 157 officials, the President of that country was blamed by his countrymen, but instead, he also pointed at Zambia and said that it had an entourage of more than 200 officials. 

Sir, much as we would want to have these people move with the President and enjoy certain privileges while they are with the President, it is important for us to bear in mind the fact that the number of people travelling with him is reduced because this country is going through an economic meltdown. The President needs to reduce the number of people that he wants to impress. Amidst the crisis that we have, we have children who cannot afford food or medicines. It is illogical for the President to carry a big entourage amidst all the challenges we are facing. The suffering is not hidden from the faces of our people. The reduction on the entourages will save us some money.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the influence which is needed as we reposition ourselves. We need to ensure that we have a good number of Zambians working at a number of international and regional bodies. When the hon. Minister receives letters from the Southern African Development Community (SADC), African Union (AU) or UN advertising jobs, the contents of the letters should be publicised. Sometimes when the ministry receives a letter, it does not inform the sister ministry which is supposed to release that official for a job at international bodies. The communication breakdown between the ministries should be closed up because …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

 My extreme right at the back is disturbing the proceedings of the House. I have been making  several appeals without your listening to me.

You may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Sir, in order for us to have the influence the we require even as we reposition this country, we cannot afford not to have Zambians sitting on these regional or continental bodies. The communication breakdown  that sometimes comes up should be taken care of to ensure that all the letters that are sent to the ministry are forwarded to other ministries to indicate to them that such a particular person has been given a job so that he or she can be released in time.

Mr Chairperson, let me wind up my debate by saying something on our structures that are in our missions abroad. The Auditor-General’s report indicates that most of the structures are dilapidated. The structures look like forsaken buildings. Much as it is prudent for the ministry to go and get mortgages, it would also be prudent for us to renovate some of the structures so that our image can be protected. Some of the structures do not portray a good picture of our country.

 Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kalaba): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank hon. Members of this august House that have passionately debated issues about the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In particular, I want to thank Hon. Namulambe, Hon. Shakafuswa Hon. Muntanga, Hon. Muntanga, Hon. Imenda and last, but not the least, Hon. Mufalali.

 Sir, the issues that they have raised are pertinent and have fallen on right ears. I have taken note of the issues that they have raised. Quickly, I want to react to one or two issues which the hon. Members have raised.  

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I want to say that our diplomats in the embassies are well aware of the responsibility that they carry on their shoulders. Those in the Foreign Service have been complaining that some Zambians do not inform our missions whenever they visit other countries. It is important that even if they are doing businesses or their own private things in those countries, Zambians inform our missions that they are in those countries.

Sir, sometimes, we just read in the papers of sudden deaths of Zambians on Ethiopian Airline planes or in China as they went about their businesses. It would help us a lot if any one visiting a foreign country registered his or her presence so that if a problem comes up, the missions gladly help you. I think that our staff in those missions abroad is very professional. So, if they used a certain local language with our very distinguished Hon. Muntanga here, it could have been that they recognised him or they might have met him before. I remember when I was with Hon. Muntanga in Nigeria, somebody greeted him in a local language. That was someone he has known for years. I did not think that Hon. Muntanga would take issue with that. That notwithstanding, we take cognisance of that fact and we will ensure that the diplomats remain professional and adhere to the Foreign Service regulations.

Mr Chairperson, as I alluded to earlier yesterday when I presented my policy statement, I will bring to this House, the Foreign Service Bill in which many issues will be streamlined. Most matters will be put to bed because we want to have a Foreign Service that is very professional. We want a Foreign Service that can withstand the pressures of the international community. Further, we want a Foreign Service that will be able to articulate Zambia’s agenda very efficiently and effectively. So, that is what we are dealing with.

Sir, let me now talk about the issue of the businessperson whose luggage went missing. From the way Hon. Imenda was demonstrating it, it was as if she was there when it happened. I know she has a passion for Zambians going through challenges. It is the policy of the Government to take a lot of interest in any Zambian that finds himself/herself in trouble, regardless of what happened. That is why Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning earlier stated that it is important for us to represent Zambia well. When she does something wrong outside the country, the people will not only stop at saying that Hon. Imenda has done something wrong, but also go on further and identify her as a Zambian official. So, it is very important that our image, as a country, is projected in the right way by us. That is because when we cross the borders of our country, we become ambassadors of our country. As Hon. Muntanga stated earlier on, it is important that when we are out there, we leave our political party affiliations behind. When we are out there, we are all Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, I must say that I have been at meetings with various hon. Members here. For instance, I was with Hon. Hamudulu in Geneva. We had good meetings and interacted without anybody realising that he was from another political party. I have been at various fora with several hon. Members here where we have discussed a number of issues. At such fora, the people cannot even distinguish whether people are from different political parties. That is the spirit and sense of patriotism which we should always move with as we project Zambia’s image.

Sir, it is also important that even as we criticise Zambia, we are moderate. I say so because sometimes, the language that we use, even to talk about our leaders, has an impact on the country’s foreign relations. So, let us just put it to our minds that it is very important that every time we are saying something about Zambia, especially in the face of the international community, we exhibit a sense of patriotism.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mufalali talked the President’s trips and that the delegations are sometimes too humongous. He said that there is a need to regulate who travels in the President’s entourage. That is exactly what is done. Whoever travels with the President on the various trips is scrutinised. We always ensure that the right people travel and for the right reasons. No one travels for speculative reasons.

Sir, the issue of mortgages, as the House has already heard, will be implemented from next year because we want to bring down the cost of doing business. It is important that we navigate away from the issues of rentals and begin being self-sufficient. That way, money which goes to pay rentals can be used in other social sectors.

Mr Chairperson, there was also an issue raised on the stringent measures that are being employed when people are getting visas especially from the United Kingdom. Hon. Members are aware that the world has evolved from the way it was in the 1960s, 1970s or 1980s. We are in an era where terrorism has taken centre strange and so, to counter these security threats, countries have taken measures to ensure that people travelling to their countries are clearly identified and have no links with any terrorists’ groupings. So, those measures are employed and sometimes, even people who are clear of those issues will have to be inconvenienced for the sake of ensuring that the world is safe. As a country, we have a role to play. In Zambia, we also have our own methodologies that we employ here to ensure that people coming in and going out are screened. You cannot just let your country be porous and allow everybody just to come in and go. So, we will discuss some of the issues that have been raised, especially as regards those related to travelling within the Commonwealth. I will be travelling to Malta very soon for the Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting (CHOGM). Are you coming along, Hon. Muntanga?

Laughter

Mr Kalaba: Sir, we will be going to CHOGM, and some of the issues that have been raised here will be discussed at that platform. Indeed, it will be good for the Commonwealth family to ensure that we live as one. That is because we have so many things that bring us together as opposed to those things that divide us.

Sir, I want to thank the hon. Members of Parliament for supporting the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Vote. I want to assure the House that we will try by all means to serve our country with dignity and honour and carry the people’s aspirations so that together we can achieve that which we want to achieve in terms of our foreign policy.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions 

The Chairperson: Order!

I will send the three of you on my extreme right out of the House. Please, I need order. I have to concentrate on the figures. If you consult loudly, you will disturb me.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/56 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/57 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K3,088,778,707).

The Minister of Defence (Mr Siamunene): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to stand before this august House to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence for the period 1st January to 31st December, 2016.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to take this opportunity to commend the hon. Minister of Finance Mr Alexander Bwalya Chikwanda for presenting a progressive 2016 National Budget under difficult global economic environment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Siamunene: Mr Chairperson, in our quest to present an all-embracing budget, sensitive to the developmental needs of the nation at large, we have taken into consideration the President’s pronouncements, the Patriotic Front (PF) Manifesto and the Ministry of Defence’s Strategic Plan 2014 to 2016.

Mr Chairperson, our mission statement is: “To preserve, protect, defend sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to maintain peace and security for all its citizen and residents.”

Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, my ministry had an approved budget of K3,215,100,849. Out of this approved amount K2,105,850,863 was received as at 31st August, 2015. Mr Chairperson, using the available resources, my ministry achieved the things which I will now talk about.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry continued to equip and modernise the Defence Force and the Zambia National Service (ZNS). During the period under review, my ministry procured agriculture equipment, specialised equipment and vehicles for operations. Further, earth moving equipment was procured for the project under the ZNS Land Development Branch.

Sir, I also wish to inform this august House that the specialised marine unit of the Zambia Army that was established at Kala Camp in Kawambwa in 2014 received specialised equipment. Through these efforts, the ministry was able to uphold its vision of maintaining peace and stability for sustained national development. 
    
Mr Chairperson, my ministry recognises the importance of the agricultural sector to the sustained economic growth of our country. To this effect, my ministry procured specialised agricultural equipment including centre pivots for the ZNS. This equipment is part of the on-going drive to establish value addition under the crop diversification programme.

Furthermore, Sir, this august House may wish to know that in the 2014/2015 Agricultural Season, the ZNS cultivated a total of 1,300 hectares of maize, 300 hectares of wheat and 120 hectares of soya beans. From this total hectreage, the ZNS produced 760,706 bags of maize, 30,354 bags of wheat and 2,753 bags of soya beans.

Mr Chairperson, the ZNS has rehabilitated two dams at Chiwoko and Chongwe production units in addition to clearing 1,200 hectares of land for agricultural purposes. These efforts will go a long way in enhancing national food security.

Mr Chairperson, in an effort to open up rural areas, my ministry, through the ZNS Land Development Branch, constructed gravel roads, feeder roads and built forty-one bridges and crossing points in various parts of the country.

Sir, in line with the directive which was issued by His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, during the Official Opening of Parliament on Friday 18th September, 2015, I wish to inform this august House that the ZNS will rehabilitate 10,000 km of primary feeder roads over a period of four years from 2016 to 2019. The ministry would, therefore, like to thank His Excellency the President, for showing confidence in the ministry and the ZNS in particular, by giving it the task at hand.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that the ZNS has commenced the construction of a youth training centre at Chishimba Camp in Kasama in line with the programme to establish one centre in each of the ten provinces. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry continued to actively participate in regional and international engagements aimed at contributing towards the maintenance of international peace and security. In this connection, my ministry has participated in the three joint permanent commissions (JPCs) with the neighbouring countries, namely the Democratic Republic of Congo, Mozambique and Namibia. As the hon. Members may be aware, the JPCs with our neighbouring countries are a fora for resolving matters of mutual interest in the areas of defence and security for the purpose of maintaining good neighbourliness. In the same vein, the Zambia Army has deployed 520 troops as a contribution to the maintenance of peace and security in the Central African Republic in addition to the sending of officers and soldiers as military observers in conflict torn regions within Africa. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me now to give you an overview of the ministry’s 2016 Budget. The Ministry of Defence Budget Estimate for the year beginning 1st January, to 31st December, 2016, is K3,880,778,100.00, representing a 4 per cent decrease of the approved 2015 Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, out of these Budget estimates, 90.4 per cent will go towards personal emoluments while the balance of 9.6 per cent will be spent on capital projects, recurrent departmental charges and grant aided institutions.

Mr Chairperson, with this overview of the Budget, allow me now to proceed with the salient features. 

Infrastructure Development

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has set aside K9,702,665.00 towards ongoing capital projects such as the upgrading of the water reticulation system at Army L-85 Camp, Zambia Air Force (ZAF) Twin Palm Base and many other camps.

Youth Skills Training Programme

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has made a provision of K6,059,000.00 in the 2016 Budget for the completion of construction works at the ZNS Chishimba Youth Skills Training Centre in Kasama as well as training of the next intake of the youths. 

Agriculture

Mr Chairperson, the ZNS is expected to cultivate 3,000 hectares in the 2015/2016 Farming Season broken down as follows: 2000 hectares of maize; 600 hectares of wheat and 400 hectares of soya beans. In comparison to the year 2014/2015 Farming Season, the ZNS has increased its hectarege by 1,280 ha. The ZNS expects to cultivate this hectarege using the 2016 budgetary allocation for crops and resources generated from the 2014/2015 Crop Marketing Season.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry remains committed to fulfilling its mandate to preserve, protect and defend the country in a professional manner in order to maintain peace and security for the citizenry and contribute towards national development.

Mr Chairperson, finally, allow me to call upon the hon. Members of this august House to fully support the approval of the 2016 Ministry of Defence Budget estimates as presented.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I support the Vote. In so doing, I would like to zero-in on two issues, namely the feeder roads and the Roads Act, 2003.

Sir, on feeder roads, the Zambia National Service (ZNS) has a very heavy task ahead of it and I want it to succeed where many have failed. I got attracted by the target set out by the hon. Minister of working on 10,000 km of roads from 2016 to 2019. This is a period of four years. It means that the ZNS has to work on 2500 km every year. This project should not fail like the Link Zambia 8,000 kilometres Road Project. We want it to succeed.

Mr Chairperson, I said that the task is heavy because most of the feeder roads need heavy grading as opposed to light grading. As a yardstick, in the olden days, light grading operators used to work on 8 km a day and for heavy grading, they used to work on 2 km a day. It is a lot of work that has to be done. I wish the ZNS well. Let it complete the 10,000 km in four years.

Mr Chairperson, the second issue is the Act. I am a bit disturbed because when we formulated the Roads Act in 2003, the ZNS unit which deals with roads was not there. I hope that the hon. Minister will bring to Parliament a Bill which can make the ZNS a road business entity. Otherwise, we will continue going against the law. 

Mr Chairperson, I also note that the ZNS is not only working on roads, but bridges as well. This will go a long way in complementing other players in the road construction sector like the private companies.

Mr Chairperson, this is all I wanted to contribute to the debate.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to add a word of support to the Vote which is under debate on the Floor of the House. I will mostly centre on the shifting of the Rural Road Unit (RRU) to the Zambia National Service. 

Mr Chairperson, since 1991, when the United National Independence Party (UNIP) was removed from power and the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) took over to date under the Patriotic Front (PF), the total mileage or kilometres of feeder roads which are practically visible in Kalabo District are less than 50 km. So, you can see the time and amount of work that has been done during that spell. 

Sir, the President has delegated the task of constructing feeder roads to the ZNS. That decision is welcome. I want feeder roads to be constructed in my constituency. I can see the reason the President has delegated the duty of constructing feeder roads to the ZNS. Maybe, he thought that the officers of the ZNS are more disciplined. I expect the maximum usage of the resources allocated to the ZNS for the construction of the feeder roads. The Western Province, Kalabo in particular, has a sandy terrain. So far, the performance of the Rural Roads Unit (RRU) in the Western Province has not been very good. It wasted a lot of resources. Money for construction of feeder roads was released by the Government was never put to good use. As such, only a few kilometres of feeder roads were covered. We had made an arrangement with the ZNS to help us construct feeder roads in Kalabo District, before the President directed it to take over the role of the RRU. I urge the hon. Minister of Defence to take this issue of constructing feeder roads in Kalabo very seriously. 

Mr Chairperson, we now have a new district called Nalolo District. We do not have a good road which connects Kalabo to Nalolo. The whole stretch of the sandy road from Kalabo to Kalongola is about 250 km. So, even the contractors who are doing work in Nalolo are finding it very difficult to transport their materials to Nalolo. I think that the Government has a big task to work on this road. Nalolo has benefited in terms of development because Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning comes from there. For instance, Kaungabeti Bridge is being constructed by the Zambia Army in Nalolo. People will not be able to get to Kalabo, especially in December, if the Ndoka Bridge will not be repaired. I urge the Ministry of Defence the need to work on the Ndoka Bridge very seriously so that people can get to Senanga and Kalongola much more easily. 

Mr Chairperson, even if we have a platoon of soldiers in Kalabo, it has still been difficult for us to solve the problem of cattle theft. Even the Ministry of Home Affairs has failed to help us as adequately. Cattle theft has become a chronic problem in Kalabo. Through discussions in the communities, we have been able to know the origin of the people terrorising cattle owners. I request the Ministry of Defence to protect us from these cattle thieves. Sometimes, these thieves use firearms to steal cattle during the day. The guns which the thieves use are not imported. They are kept locally in Kalabo. The hon. Minister should help us deal with this problem. There is also an insurgency in Lukona. I asked the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to address this issue. I think that the Ministry of Defence can also come in to help us deal with it. Yesterday, I received a report that criminals in that area cover their heads with head socks and attack people who travel to Mongu to buy food. Between Mongu and Kalabo, there is an area called Kama which has a bush. The criminals hide in that bush. There is no way people can get to Mongu without crossing this bush. The police has failed to catch these criminals. The Ministry of Defence should come in to help us so that the people can access food from Mongu safely. Otherwise, people will continue to face this challenge, and they will start running away from that area to other safe places. 

Mr Chairperson, this is all I wanted to say on this Vote. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, from the outset, let me thank you for giving me an opportunity to add a few words to the policy statement delivered by the hon. Minister of Defence. 

Mr Chairperson, I am concerned that the hon. Minister talked about the Zambia National Service, (ZNS), agriculture, roads and bridges, but did not say anything about defence matters. However, I will still debate his policy statement. The roads, bridges and agricultural issues he talked about are supposed to be dealt with by the relevant ministries, that is, the Ministry of Agriculture, and the Ministry of Works and Supply. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to know whether the military is growing. I want to know whether the Government is going to recruit new officers in the Zambia Army and the Zambia Air Force (ZAF). Does the Ministry of Defence have money to carry out the recruitment exercise? Why should we have a military which is made up of tired people? I do not know when the Government last recruited new officers. We need to continue having young people in the military. We cannot keep maintaining an old force that cannot fight. I expected the hon. Minister of Defence to tell me when some of the young ones who desire to be in the military would be recruited, and how much has been allocated to the exercise. I expected the hon. Minister to tell me how efficient our military is, in terms of defending this country. However, he kept quiet on talking about a majority of the things he should not have talked about. He delved into one department only, which is the ZNS. 

Mr Chairperson, there are many problems in the Defence Forces. One problem is that of housing for military personnel. I have to declare interest and state that I once lived in the barracks. The sewer system in Arakan Barrack is completely dilapidated. We need to overhaul it. We need to improve or overhaul the sewer system in the barrack. We need to look after our men and women in uniform. If we do not do this, we will be doing a disservice to ourselves. We cannot have a force that is frustrated. How do we expect it to defend us? So, we need to do something about the welfare of our military personnel. We needed to hear about how we will look after them. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to commend the hon. Minister for the Zambia Air Force Day, which took place early this year, where officers showcased what they are capable of doing. We need to motivate people who desire to join the Zambia Air Force (ZAF), Zambia Army and the Zambia National Service (ZNS), although I must add, that ZNS is now more into construction.  The other issue which I expected the hon. Minister to talk about is the mixture within ZNS that the President indicated. I believe that ZNS is a uniformed unit or military. However, there are civilians now in there. I do not know what has happened with the 500 staff at the Rural Roads Unit (RRU). 

Sir, my request is that the RRU staff goes to Ministry of Works and Supply because they are civilians. All those engineers who have joined the ZNS should have been with the Ministry of Works and Supply. I do not know what positions these engineers now hold under the ZNS. Looking at the structure of the ZNS, I am unable to understand how the engineers will fit in its system. I want the hon. Minister to explain to me how the civilians who worked for the RRU will be handled. I suppose that decisions have to be made. 

Mr Chairperson, works by the ZNS are very poor. The officers from the ZNS do very shoddy works. The ZNS did works from the junction of Moyo to the palace. This road is complete, but shoddy. The road is full of sand, yet we were being told that it was being gravelled. If you go there, the road is bumpy and most of it has been washed away. These are the people who are being given the equipment to work on the roads. 

Sir, the ZNS works by are very expensive. I hope that they can reduce on their expenses now that they are working with the RRU. In this mandate, we want the ZNS to do jobs at a reasonable price. If you compare the road to Nande, which was done by the RRU, and the one which was done by ZNS, from Moyo to the palace, you will see the difference. The road by the RRU is far much better. Perhaps, now that they are working together, the work of the ZNS will improve. 

Sir, the other issue I want to talk about is the ZNS equipment. Equipment should not sit idle for too long. I was recently in Rufunsa. 

Mr Chipungu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Sir, I found equipment which had been parked for three weeks. Why take equipment to a place if you are not ready to start moving? There is so much equipment lying idly when other people want to use it to do things. The equipment has spent three weeks in Rufunsa, lying idly, when other places are looking for the same equipment so as to use it. What are we achieving? We are not achieving anything. 

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister is the frustration of senior officers, especially when there is the transition of power. Let us not go into military areas and start pointing at people belonging to what party and so on and so forth. Let us not frustrate them with such political accusations. Such accusations are not healthy for us, as a country. We want to frustrate colonels and other high ranks to the extent that some even die of depression simply because they have a name that some people do not like.  

Laughter 

Mr Mufalali: Sir, that happens. Just because you have a certain name you are accused of supporting a particular party. These people end up dying out of frustrations, especially in the army and air force. You want someone who is a major to answer to a lieutenant just because he or she refused to follow a certain instruction from somewhere. 

Mr Chairperson, there were two leaders in this country who followed each other. You know how some cadres, who have access to the President, supply to some of these institutions. They are able to make a phone call and report that so and so failed to pay them. One leader called the officer, who answered. When this President heard how firm this officer was in his refusal to pay for the rotten meat, the President went there and asked to see him. When he met this officer, he simply said I am happy to see you and went back. A week later, that officer was promoted. When the other President came into power and heard how the officer spoke, his opinion was that the officer was too arrogant. 

Laughter 

Mr Mufalali: Sir, one President needed a firm officer while the other one needed a weak one. We do not need to start frustrating our officers. This is a noble profession which requires the support of the Commander-in-Chief, ministers and everyone else. We cannot afford to have phone calls from cadres just because they want payments and end up frustrating our army personnel. It is not fair and it should not be allowed. 

Mr Chairperson, some people were lucky enough to survive crashes. 

Laughter 

Mr Mufalali: Sir, I wanted the hon. Minister to tell me why some of the helicopters that they buy are defective. We cannot afford helicopters crashing now and again without any reports being made. We lost a Zambia Air Force Deputy Commander and the report is dragging. This cannot continue. 

Mr Chairperson, under the International Air Transport Association (IATA) conditions, the fleet which is failing should be parked and the supplier must be answerable. You cannot continue to fly planes that seem to have issues and try to defend yourselves. Helicopters are crashing. How can we defend ourselves on things that we are not even sure of? 

Mr Chairperson, it is not easy to train pilots, yet we want to risk their lives with helicopters or planes that are defective. It is not fair. Hon. Minister, pay attention to these things for the benefit of this nation. We cannot afford to lose lives. It is not easy to replace some of the people in the air force. So, if you have crashing helicopters every day, …

Laughter 

Mr Mufalali: … you need to definitely pay attention to what is happening. You cannot continue using them. 

Mr Chairperson, like I said before, we are looking forward to the military showcasing its equipment. We have seen these shows in other countries, but want to continue living in the past where the military was such a secretive organisation. We have seen China, North Korea and many other countries showcasing what they have. This is very uplifting and motivating for the new graduates who have the desire to defend their country. This is how it is supposed to be. Hiding and believing in the secrecy of the olden times is not the route to go. 

Sir, we want the people to join the army with one heart and go out there to defend this country. We want intelligent people to join the army. We do not just want the recruitment of cadres while people who have six points are left out. The military needs intelligent people because it is a noble profession. We cannot afford to have lists coming from high offices which indicate the names of the preferred candidates. The fact that there are many applicants does not mean that you should put in your own names. We should have a system that ensures that we recruit the right people for this noble profession. We need intelligent military personnel in this globalised world who will be able to defend this country and show the credibility of the defence system. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to support the Vote on the Ministry of Defence wholeheartedly. 

Sir, however, even if I am not pleased with the allocation because it is not enough, there is nothing I can do. The hon. Minister of Defences spent a lot of time talking about the Zambia National Service (ZNS) without knowing that there are problems that he must not ignore in terms of the operations of our Defence Force. I am restrained because I know that we are not supposed to talk about our problems openly. I want to urge the hon. Minister of Defence to pay attention because our personnel need attention. 

Mr Speaker, the army is an elite group. It used to be a great honour to work for the army. In days when we were finishing school, there was a lot of competition to enter the army. When people like Hon. Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha were joining the army, many people really wanted to become military personnel. The barracks used to be respected although they were just surrounded by fences. At the moment, the army is now just a shadow of itself. When you go to Kohima Barracks, you will see that the fence which was there is gone. The same thing has happened at Chindwin. It seems we have abandoned our Defence Forces.

Sir, the hon. Minister took a lot of time talking about the ZNS. I am not sure if the work of the ZNS is accepted wholeheartedly by the army. The ZNS is a little better than the police in terms of discipline, but cannot match the army. We seem to be mixing the ZNS and the army. The Zambia Police Force is collapsing because it has become political. Its officers are polarised. There is no professionalism in the Zambian Police Force. Even though I support the appointment of women to positions of power, I think that some of them do a terrible job when they are there ... 

Hon. Opposition Member: Kamubamba mahina.

Mr Muntanga: ... like the one who is in charge of the police for the Lusaka Province. You cannot work like that. The police are failing because they are not professional and so now you want to mix them with the army. People are beginning to say that the army officers should come out of the barracks. I do not think that should happen because these are professionals whose job is to defend the country. 

Mr Chairperson, politics should not be brought to the operations of the army. The job of the army should remain the defence of the country. If we begin politicising the army, we might cause coups like the ones we have seen in other parts of Africa. The Defence Forces should be treated the right way. The ZNS is not a force, but a service. The first Republican President created the ZNS as a unit of people who will serve the country within a structure that has some discipline. Unfortunately, look at what has happened over the years. Look at the state of the farms they were given. The airport and Choma farms have become shadows of themselves. These farms were supposed to be farms that we would be proud of, but what is there now?

Mr Sing’ombe: Nothing!

Mr Muntanga: What is happening to the ZNS farms?

Sir, I am a farmer by profession. My farm has been improving since the time I started it because I have a programme for it. Why should the ZNS be given a farm whilst always wanting to receive money? We are making more mistakes.

Mr Chairperson, the Road Development Agency (RDA) has its own problems. When you get equipment from RDA it usually develops faults half way into the job. If you go to Kalonda in Kalomo you will see a grader parked because it has no starter motor. That grader has been sitting there for more than six months ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: ... and the tarring of Siyachitemwa Road cannot finish. We built a bridge using our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) and asked the RDA to put an embankment there. That has not been done. They have now shifted the equipment the ZNS. I think that will cause more problems.

  Sir, the ZNS was given new equipment by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) for road rehabilitation. The equipment was procured from China and other places. We had a ZNS truck in Kalomo, but have never finished working on the township road. It used to break down every day. The time they came to collect it for repairs was the last time we saw it.

Mr Chairperson, I want to give you a view of what really happens at the ZNS since the hon. Minister is trying to praise it. I paid money to the ZNS to build a dam last year. Its officers could not do it because of breakdowns to its vehicles. They said that they would do it this year. Up to now, they have not done it yet. Now that equipment was taken from the RDA and given to the ZNS, the officers have gone to Sinazongwe to build a dam next to the Kariba Dam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, I am very far away from the Zambezi River. How can they opt to go and build a dam next to a big dam? I finally went to complain and the bulldozer came. Unfortunately, it only worked for two days and then broke down. It has been parked since Saturday. I have been telling officials to send transport, but nothing has been done for seven days. When I call them, they tell me that will bring another grader from somewhere else. When I asked an officer what was happening, he told me that all the bulldozers are down and that they are relying on the equipment of the RDA. There is also a long list of projects which have not been done. They have collected money from people to do certain jobs which have not been done. If it starts raining this week, they will not construct my dam. Afterwards, the dip tank will collapse and that bulldozer will sink and get damaged. These are the ZNS officers whom the hon. Minister is praising. 

Sir, the problem with those in the Civil Service is that they seem not to know what they are doing. One of the men you put in charge has some sort of military background, although he does not behave the same way a soldier in the army does. When you book someone in Choma, you have to wait until he is cleared to do the job from Lusaka. Is that the way we are going to work? Things should change.

Mr Sing’ombe: Tell them!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I think that the President thought things at the Ministry of Defence would improve because of the people he took there. Firstly, that unit should have been upgraded, but all they did was bring a military man from the Zambia Army to be in charge of the ZNS. He even has officers who are half civilian and half military.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: He cannot even advise them. They do not listen because they are both civilians and military at the same time. The ZNS should listen to the people. If it used the actual military unit in Mufulira to build a bridge, that bridge would be completed within a shortest period. When we had a problem on the Great East Road, it came and fixed that bridge within hours.

Mr Mufalali: Yes!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the Mufulira unit fixed that bridge because it has professionals. If this Government wants to use that unit, let us agree and use it without involving politics. We have now started recruiting criminals in the Zambia Police Force because there are no restrictions on who is allowed to join it. That is what is also happening to the ZNS. This has also been extended to the Zambia Army. If we are going to let criminals join the Zambia Army, then we will have serious problems in this country. We are supposed to adequately scrutinise people before we allow them to join the army. This is a profession where people must apply themselves fully. People should not join the Zambia Army if they cannot stand it. People should not go there just because there are no jobs elsewhere. They should not just go and lineup since that is the only place they can be employed. 

Mr Nkombo: Abantu bahwahwi bala njila!

Mr Muntanga: This time around, everyone, regardless of his/her height can join the Zambia Army. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: When going to march, this time around there is no need to arrange them in the right order because all of them are short. Those days, they used to recruit people like Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha. Let the hon. Member stand so that everyone can see his height.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, they can see how Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikwapwasha is. 

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, when I was in England, I could see how police officers would walk. 

Mr Chairperson, I am saying that we should not dilute the Zambia Army to a level where it does not perform properly. Let us give it the respect it deserves. There were times when people used to go for military training in Ireland. Who recalls the name of the military training camp in Ireland?

Hon. UPND Members: Sandhurst!

Mr Muntanga: That is where my friend, the son to the former President, Dr Kaunda, went. After that, we had Kohima. When it started, it was very good. Let us not destroy what we have. They should always check the equipment and everything they do. They should not show us the old equipment. The first Republican President used to show off the equipment. There were days when they would line up their equipment. That is how strong he was. Currently, we cannot line them up. Otherwise, people will gauge us wrongly. That is why I am saying that this is not enough. There are no more wars. People are now fighting using buttons. Let us now use that knowledge they have for the development of the country. They should take some officers from the Zambia Army to the ZNS so that they can uplift the behaviour of that service. I hope people are getting what I am saying. I am restraining myself from going too much into detail because I realise that we can only go so far when discussing issues to do with the army. The best I can do is say that as we approve the Budget, we need to give them more money. The Minister of Defence should make sure that the military is supported well. In our times, we would make sure that the hon. Minister of Defence is fit to be one. 

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Sir, those from the Defence Forces actually obey him because they have no choice. 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Nkombo: Because of stature. 

Mr Muntanga: Sir, his stature alone cannot qualify him to be an hon. Minister Defence. This is a command line. He should be able to show us that he or she is fit. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the debate of this very important Vote. In supporting this Vote, I will be brief because I only have three points. The first point that I want to raise under this ministry is the issue that was raised by His Excellency the President the need for the Government to the conditions of service that were given to officers in various institutions. Indeed, that should also include officers under the Ministry of Defence. We have a situation where particular officers, for example, the commanders, are given certain benefits which are not extended to the deputies and those that follow. There is such a huge disparity. I think that these are issues that the Government of day should be brave enough to look at. This is not just in this Ministry of Defence, but in that other arms of Government, such as the Judiciary and Legislature.  

Sir, the other day, we heard that the former Vice-President, who was also Acting President when he made a statement that there was a time when he attended a traditional ceremony which ended badly and he did not have security. We learnt that because he was the Vice-President, he was not supposed to have security. My view is that as a country, it is important to review all these issues holistically. 

Sir, the second issue which I want to talk about has to do with the general plight of our soldiers in the country. Like one of my colleagues has just said, when we were growing as young people, the army was a very respected proffession in the country. Many people that were graduating those days wanted to really join the army. They had that desire to serve their country by getting into the army. Today, it is not the same. It is as if the army has become a dumping ground for those who are stranded. I think this is because of the way we have handled that profession as a country. I think that whilst we appreciate that the world order has changed, we do not appreciate that the major roles of the army have also changed. Those days, there were a lot of wars and battles but now, there is more diplomacy in settling disputes among countries. Therefore, you find that the army, most of the time, although its officers are supposed to carry out certain duties, are not doing what was very common in the old days. Maybe that could be the reason why the Government is paying little attention to the army. 

Sir, I want to believe that the role of the army is still as relevant as it was then, except that now, we have different wars compared to the past. I note that a number of our officers seem unhappy. We hear of stories, for example, where an army officer is employed, but has no uniform. He or she has to go to the salaula market to buy second hand boots. Those are the kind of stories we hear from a number of army officers. In my constituency, there are Zambia National Service (ZNS) and army houses. Thus, I mingle with the officers in the villages and meet them in the markets, looking for second hand boots.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, when we ask them why they buy second hand boots, they tell us that the Government does not give them full uniforms. This surprises me because in the Yellow Book, there is always money for the procurement of their uniforms. Therefore, when the hon. Minister winds up, he should address this issue. It might seem like a simple issue, but the officers took pride in the uniforms and boots the Government gave them a long time ago. However, since they now have to buy these things for themselves, the morale of the officers has gone down. In the past, the Government would also give the officers mealiemeal. For now, I do not know if it still does that or it gives them money. They now live like poor people and are no longer proud to belong to the army. I noticed that there are a number of increments in the budget, especially under the term ‘operations.’ I do not know what that means, but I hope that these people can be provided with uniforms considering that the safety of this country depends on them.

Sir, the last point that I want to raise on this Vote has to do with the Ministry of Tourism and Arts. I hope the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts will pay attention to this matter instead of looking at her phone.

The Chairperson: Order! Order! 

Hon. Masebo, we are discussing the Ministry of Defence …

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: She is my cousin.

The Chairperson: Order!

I am still on the Floor and I am saying that we are discussing the Ministry of Defence and not Tourism and Arts.

Mrs Masebo: Sir, I will explain the connection.

The Chairperson: I do not think there will be any connection.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Sir, the issue that I want to raise which relates to tourism under the Ministry of Defence relates to the protection of wildlife. The President gave the ministry an extra function of taking care of the roads which was under the Rural Road Unit (RRU). However, I hope that the issue of protecting wildlife could also be seriously considered by the Ministry of Defence by way of it partnering with the Department of Wildlife. It would be a huge cost to employ more wildlife officers to protect the wildlife. In the budget which was recently approved for the Ministry of Tourism and Arts, there is no money to undertake this exercise. So, I hope the army officers can partner with the Department of Wildlife so that they can protect our wildlife. This is because in other countries like Botswana where wildlife is a major sector, the army officers protect the wildlife. This way, we would not be misusing our resources. We would make use of our army officers who are less busy since there are currently no wars. In any case, they are usually in the bush like the wildlife officers. So, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Defence, and I know that there have been talks to that effect, to let the army participate in protecting our wildlife. If we do not pay serious attention to the protection of our wildlife, next year, there will be no wildlife to talk about.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, let us not take this matter lightly. It will be sad for our children to imagine that we were in this House, but none of us could save the important natural resource which can help our country in terms of job creation.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that the ZNS uses the land under it for production. I am happy that I heard him talk about 3,000 ha, which has been set aside for production. I must say it is a step in the right direction.

Sir, I am aware of fact that in the past, the ZNS used to be a very good contributor to the food basket for Zambia. I am sure we can still do that even this time around except that the hon. Minister should take note of the issue which Hon. Muntanga raised. Let us avoid politics under the Ministry of Defence because already under the Ministry of Home Affairs, people have lost confidence in the police because of the politics associated with them. We do not want the same tag to come to the army. So far, the army still has a good name. Let us preserve it.

Sir, since the ZNS is a production wing of the defence side, it can help this country to remain peaceful by ensuring that the people have access to affordable food.  The Government can use the ZNS to protect the masses from exploitation with regard to the food prices. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister that there is a need to protect the land that falls under the ZNS because in this country, people have interest in every State land because they do not understand that some of it is set aside for special work. It seems that these days, everybody wants a piece of land to build a house even where they are not supposed to build.

Mr Chairperson, you have seen that in the past, most of the strategic land has been given out. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Defence to ensure that the land for the ZNS is taken care of.

 Sir, I have in mind the land around the ZNS Camp at the airport which is under my constituency, which has a lot of problems. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to take a little bit of interest in dealing with the issue of working with the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection because that land belongs to the Ministry of Defence. 

Mr Chairperson, as area Member of Parliament, after speaking to the late President then, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, 50 ha of that land was given to a community of squatters. What is happening is that instead of sticking to the original arrangement, we have had rich people from town who have come to greedily get extra land at the expense of the ZNS. So, the hon. Minister should take note of this matter.

Mt Chairperson, with those few remarks, I want to support the Vote.

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha (Keembe): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support this Vote although the money which has been allocated to it is very little.

Sir, first, this ministry requires to put in place a modernisation plan in order to modernise the assets which are so important to this nation. We have heard debates from the hon. Members about the crashing of helicopters. This equipment is, indeed, old and so, we need to pay attention to it. These are assets that protect the country’s economy, hence the need for us to look after them well. You never know what the future holds. So, in discussing this Vote, I want to say that the money that has been allocated to it does not show that we are looking towards modernising the Zambia Army, the Zambia Air Force (ZAF), the Zambia National Service (ZNS) and, indeed, the assets which are given to them.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue that I want to talk about and also expect the hon. Minister to address is our participation in the United Nations (UN) programmes. These are important programmes that we must participate in. They bring revenue to the country. A number of countries, such as those in West Africa, that have participated in these UN programmes have raised their countries’ revenues. I expected to hear the hon. Minister say something about this and so, I hope he can say something when he comes to wind up his debate. When I was ZAF Commander and Gen. Simbeye was the Army Commander, we worked very hard to open this window for the Zambian Defence Forces to participate in the UN activities such as peace-keeping missions. So, it is important for us to sustain that level of operations because it enables our Defence Forces to acquire skills. It also brings about an understanding of the international defence matters. Therefore, I expect the hon. Minister to address that area.

Sir, another area that I would like the hon. Minister to address is that which relates to the former Commanders of the Defence Forces. These commanders may be retired, but they have contributed greatly to where we are, as a country, fifty-one years after Independence. We had Gen. Chinkuli, Gen. Zuze, Gen. Mibenge and many others that played a big role in getting this country to where it is today. They gave their lives when they were young. In my view, we cannot afford to leave them to walk and live in poverty after all they did for Zambia. We must be able to look after them. Let us put aside certain amounts of money to look after all these retired defence personnel so they can say they served this country and now the country is looking after them.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I want to say that it is important that professionalism in these institutions is maintained. We should not devalue them. For example, there are certain things that are being said about these institutions. We now have situations where service chiefs are being given two-year employment contracts and that needs to be reviewed. Let us have professionals that are going to serve a service term and complete it. That way, they will be more professional because they will not look at the contract as if they are in business. This is not business, it is about defending your country and to do that, one must be able to put in their all. I was not on contract just like many other commanders. We put in our best and this is why the Defence Forces are like this today. So, I would like the hon. Minister to review these areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Siamunene: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank the hon. Members who have engaged the Ministry of Defence through this discourse. I want to thank Hon. Mooya, Hon. Miyutu, Hon. Mufalali, Hon. Muntanga, Hon. Masebo and lastly, but not the least, Hon. Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha. Some of you have raised very important issues that the Ministry of Defence will consider. As regards the recruitment of the Defence Force officers, there are certain procedures that the ministry follows. We recruit in every province. That is the way it has been done and is even being done now. We are actually thinking of setting up district centres during the recruitment exercise so that we get officers from every district. The Defence Forces are supposed to have a national character and represent all regions in the country. So, our aim is to ensure that this is achieved.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Siamunene: Sir, I think the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is doing everything possible to ensure that our army personnel are looked after well. As hon. Members will recall, the President clearly indicated that we are in the process of modernising the Defence Forces so that they are given the necessary equipment to use in the process of discharging its duties.

Mr Chairperson, I did not know that Hon. Muntanga hates the people of Sinazongwe District. I have learnt today that for the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to go and work in Sinazongwe is a crime to him and he feels they should not be there. \

Interruptions  

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, let us not start talking about ourselves. Get on to the policy debate.

Mr Siamunene: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. We have taken note of everything that our colleagues have said. We will go through and see what information is important and useful to our present situation. So, I thank all hon. Members, including those who did not support the Vote, but said something. May God bless everyone abundantly. However, we should not belittle one another because leadership only comes from God. That is all I can say.

Thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

____________  

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 17th November, 2015.