Tuesday, 10th November, 2015

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
____

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR DEPUTY SPEAKER

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES – MEMBERSHIP

Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 131, the following changes have been made in the composition of some Sessional Committees. This is following the appointment of Mr R. L. Mpundu, as Deputy Minister, in the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

GENERAL PURPOSES COMMITTEES

Public Accounts Committee

Mr M. Sampa, MP

Committee on Estimates

Mr J. Shuma, MP

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

HALF DAY SENSITISATION MEETING ON THE AFRICAN PEER REVIEW MECHANISM

Mr Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that I have permitted the National Governing Council of the African Peer Review Mechanism at the Ministry of Justice to hold a half day sensitisation meeting for all hon. Members of Parliament, on the African Peer Review Mechanism Process, on Wednesday, 11th November, 2015, at 0930 hours, in the Auditorium, at Parliament Buildings. Hon. Members of Parliament are urged to attend this very important meeting, as they are strategic stakeholders of the African Peer Review Mechanism Process.  

Attendance of the meeting is on a voluntary basis.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_____

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

INPUTS PACKS FOR THE FARMER INPUT SUPPORT PROGRAMME 2015/2016

The Minister of Agriculture (Mr Lubinda): Mr Speaker, thank you for permitting me to present this important ministerial statement on the inputs packs for the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) 2015/2016. Allow me to congratulate Hon. Mpundu on his deserved elevation to the position of hon. Deputy Minister. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I am sure that he and his Cabinet Minister will support the ministry I am responsible for. 

Sir, on 1st October, 2015, I presented a ministerial statement to this august House on the preparedness of FISP for the 2015/2016 Agriculture Season. In that statement, I stated that the Government had to support 1,000,000 beneficiary farmers under the FISP during the 2015/2016 Agriculture Season. I indicated that this was the same number of farmers that was targeted during the 2014/2015 Agriculture season. The difference was that for the 2015/2016 season, 769,000 farmers were to be under the conventional FISP and 241,000 farmers under the electronic (e) -voucher system in thirteen pilot districts. 

Mr Speaker, I have stated before, both in this House and outside, that the Patriotic Front (PF) Government is determined to diversify agricultural production. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lubinda: This entails moving away from supporting a monoculture, specifically the promotion of maize production only. To this end, the Government decided to stimulate diversification under FISP by introducing soya beans, orange maize, beans, cotton and sunflower. As diversification under FISP had to be realised within the budget, it implied taking away some hectarage that had been under maize in the 2014/2015 Agriculture Season and replacing it with hectarage of the new crops. 

With this substitution, the total number of packs under FISP remained 100 million but the maize packs reduced to 598,723. For the avoidance of doubt, let me reiterate that the number of beneficiary farmers remained constant at 100 million. The difference is that there was a reduction in the quantity of maize seed, with a corresponding increase in the seeds for the newly-introduced crops. Nonetheless, there have been complaints from some farmers who fear that with this reduction in maize seed, …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order! Can I have order on my right.

 Continue, hon. Minister. 

Mr Lubinda: … they may only grow the newly-introduced crops without maize. 

Understandably, for the majority of our small-scale farmers, farming is not farming if it is not growing maize. Over the years, our society has made our farmers so maize-centric that it has become difficult for some of them to readily accept that one can be as successful a farmer growing groundnuts as one would rearing goats and chickens and growing cashew nuts or any other crop for that matter. 

Interestingly, even some of my colleagues in this House have made requests against the replacement of the quantity of maize seed with alternative crops. Some have argued that the new crops should be in addition …

Hon. Members: Yes!

Mr Lubinda: … to the quantity of maize seed that was provided during the 2014/2015 season.  

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member, who represents the people of Mafinga, is one such Member. The Patriotic Front (PF) Government is a people’s Government. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Hon. Livune knows very well that His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, is a listening President. 

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Only this afternoon, Hon. Livune confided in me on how he respects His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu’s, ...

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Lubinda: ... ability to listen to the people.

Mr Livune: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter 

Mr Lubinda: Sir, His Excellency paid attention and listened to the submissions made by the farmers he interacted with when he recently visited the Copperbelt.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: This is the case as with those he has been meeting at State House and elsewhere. He has equally listened to the concerns raised by various commentators, including hon. Members of this august House, such as the Member of Parliament for Kazungula, Hon. Livune.

Mr Speaker, in this vein, the PF Government has decided to bring back the maize pack support to the levels of the 2014/2015 Agriculture Season.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, this decision has been made now before the onset of rains across the country. With this decision, a total of 162,572 more farmers will benefit from the maize packs under the programme.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The number of farmers benefiting from maize packs will increase from the current 598,723 to 761,295. This means that the total number of targeted beneficiary farmers will increase from the 1 million targeted in the 2014/2015 Farming Season to the 1,162,572 targeted in the 2015/2016 Farming Season.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, with your permission, I shall be laying, on the Table of the House, the FISP Manual for the 2015/2016 Agriculture Season with an addendum which shows the revised maize packs across the country. As an example, for Mafinga, ...

Ms Namugala: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: ... we had initially targeted a total of 6,583 farmers. However, with this revision, the hon. Member for Mafinga can inform her people that the programme will now target 8,370 farmers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, the PF is working ...

Mr Livune: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: ... and His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Lungu, is, indeed, listening to the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The undertaking will require an additional 32,514.4 metric tonnes of fertiliser and 1,625.72 metric tonnes of maize seed. All the required fertiliser quantities have already been procured by the Government. Therefore, only maize is yet to be procured. An estimated total of K42 million will be required to procure the additional maize seed and K11 million to move the seed and fertiliser across the country. The Ministry of Finance, through the hard working hon. Minister of Finance, has already committed itself to release the funds to support this important programme. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to join the Government in informing the farmers accordingly.

Ms Lubezhi: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: I also instruct all extension officers to prepare all the farmers accordingly and to ensure that the deserving farmers receive the required maize seed and accompanying fertilisers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I am sure that Hon. Pande is happy that this time, I am not appealing to the extension officers, but instructing them.

Mr Pande: Very good. Well done.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the Government is concerned about the current high prices of agricultural inputs, fertiliser in particular. In an effort to mitigate the high fertiliser prices, the Government has directed the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) Limited to produce 44,000 metric tonnes of D-Compound fertiliser for the open commercial market.

Mr Musukwa: Government ilebomba.

Mr Lubinda: This quantity is over and above the FISP targeted production of 106,409 metric tonnes. The fertiliser for the open market will be priced at not more than K320 per 50 kg bag. Farmers are, therefore, encouraged to access this fertiliser produced by the NCZ. 

Mr Speaker, the fertiliser will be made available to agro-dealers scattered across the country. Any agro-dealer that shall increase the price of the NCZ fertiliser above the stated price of K320 shall be penalised by not being sold any further stocks by the NCZ. It ought to be borne in mind that this is NCZ fertiliser and the NCZ, on behalf of the Government, has a right to determine the price at which its product is to be retailed. 

Sir, as a result of increases in input prices, money made available on the e-voucher cards can no longer buy the quantities of inputs originally planned. In order to ensure that the farmers under the e-voucher system are not disadvantaged in accessing inputs compared to beneficiary farmers under the conventional FISP, the Government is in the process of mobilising resources to increase the contribution towards the e-voucher cards. K173.5 million is required to top up the e-voucher subsidy. The Government is determined to make sure that the farmers under the e-voucher system receive the same quality and quantity of subsidy as their counterparts on the conventional FISP. 

In the meantime, Sir, as we load the e-vouchers with additional resources, farmers are encouraged to use the amount of money already loaded on their cards to access inputs now, in particular seed and D-Compound fertiliser, and to use the money that will be added to access additional inputs later. 

Mr Speaker, on Saturday, 14th November, 2015, my team of officials, concerned stakeholders and I will be in Kabwe Central Province to kick-start the issuance of inputs under the e-voucher programme. It will be remembered that I launched the FISP in Ndola, where I announced that we were ready to receive farmers’ contributions for FISP. His Excellency the President, then, launched the e-voucher system in Mbabala where the vouchers were released and tested. On Saturday, we shall flag off the release of inputs in Kabwe. Let me assure the nation that the ministry is fully committed to ensuring that the e-voucher system works successfully. Therefore, the Government will address all challenges that may arise as we proceed. 

Sir, in conclusion, I wish to urge − no, to instruct ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: ... Provincial Co-ordinators, District Agricultural Co-ordinators (DACOS) and also to request hon. Members of this august House to bring this information to the attention of the farmers in our respective constituencies and areas. We are determined to succeed.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Agriculture. 

Interruptions

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, ...

Laughter

Ms Namugala: I need your protection from the hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Sir, I must commend the hon. Minister of Agriculture. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, in fact, I must put it on record that in the last five years since the Patriotic Front (PF) took over office, in my opinion, this has been the most hard-working hon. Minister of Agriculture.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, last week, there were complaints from Mafinga and I went to the hon. Minister and complained about this very bitterly. He picked up the phone and spoke with one of the chairpersons of the co-operatives in Mafinga. He personally assured that person that he would to look into that problem. 

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Your question?

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, today, I am very happy that the hon. Minister has announced, through this House, to the people that he has, indeed, looked at that problem. 

Mr Mulenga: Ema Minister aya.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, now that the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) will offload 44,000 metric tonnes of D-Compound fertiliser onto the open market, can the hon. Minister assure farmers, including myself, that we will access top dressing fertiliser at the same price of K320 per kg bag.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to say how humbled I am by those very warm words. I really hope I can live up to her expectation, going forward. That was just one act which might have actually been an accident, …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … but thank you very much, hon.Member.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I wish I could make a similar arrangement with urea, as I have done with D-Compound fertiliser. As the hon. Member may be aware, the NCZ only produces a very small quantity of ammonium nitrate and not urea. I am taking advantage of the fact that we are producing D-Compound fertiliser, which is required immediately for basal dressing by our farmers. In the meantime, the Government is engaging with the various importers of urea fertilisers to see whether there are ways we can go around this huge cost of fertiliser. I am hoping that we can find a solution. As soon as that is done, I will certainly inform this august House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, I also want to echo the commendation by the hon. Member for Mafinga to the hon. Minister of Agriculture. To those of us who come from rural areas, FISP is very important. Now that the Government is being advised by the Opposition political party leaders to abandon this programme, what is the Government’s position?  

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, let me start by thanking my hon. brother for his kind words. The fact is that while there are some members or leaders of the Opposition asking the Government to cancel FISP, there are equally some who are actually supportive of this programme. Only last week, we were talking about a programme that is being run by a political party in some part of the country. Under this programme, this party is using a smaller amount of K500,000. When I responded to that matter, I said that K500,000 was only enough to reach 320 farmers, if it was to be given at the same level of subsidy that FISP is giving to farmers.

Mr Speaker, yes, FISP may have its own challenges, one of which is that it does not allow for the graduation of farmers and creates a level of dependency, and the PF Government is concerned about that. Going forward, we are looking at ways of redesigning it so that it becomes a real empowerment programme which allows farmers to graduate. 

Sir, let me state that this is a programme that the PF happily inherited because it saw the impact it had on the lives of the people. Farmers may not be graduating, but I cannot imagine what would have happened to the 1 million farmers if we were not giving them this subsidy. You may recall that before FISP was introduced, Zambia was a net importer of maize. As a result of FISP, it has become a net exporter of maize. 

So, Sir, if those who are criticising it are doing so for its lack of ability to graduate farmers, then, I am with them. However, if they are criticising it because they want to make political mileage, I am sure that the people are the best arbiters and not me. As far as we are concerned, this is a programme that we are committed to promoting and ensuring that it becomes an empowering one in the future. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, before I pose my question, I would like to congratulate Hon. Miles Sampa ...

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: ... on resigning from his position at an appropriate time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I just want the hon. Minister of Agriculture to assure the small-scale farmers that urea fertiliser, which he has stated will be made available through increased support from the Government, will be made available. This is taking into account the value of the kwacha vis-à-vis the dollar. As we are speaking this afternoon, the exchange rate is K15 to a United States Dollar and the cost of fertiliser will keep on escalating. Can the hon. Minister confirm to us that despite the price of urea, the Government will make provisions and make it available to the people, especially those in districts that are being forced to use the e-voucher system.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, before I respond to that question, let me take advantage and commend the leaders of the farmer groups in Monze for having turned up in large numbers to join His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu, as he launched the e-voucher system in Mbabala. 

Mr Speaker, even if their hon. Member of Parliament chose not to be there when I had invited him, I want to commend the people of Mbabala for showing that they are, indeed, citizens who are concerned about their country and will add value to Government programmes such as the e-voucher system. Through this House, I want to assure them that this hard-working Government has committed itself to providing the requisite inputs for FISP, be it under the conventional FISP or under the e-voucher system. This is the commitment that I make on behalf of the PF Government, the Government that the people of Monze chose to be worthy entrusting the responsibility of taking over leadership and providing the hope and vision that the country requires. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, let me also take this opportunity to congratulate my colleague, Hon. Raymond Mpundu, on his appointment as hon. Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba: Mr Speaker, I have known Hon. Mpundu for the past twenty years, that is, since the time we were at school.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mumba: I have no doubt that he will perform far much better than his predecessor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! 

Laughter 

Mr Mumba: Mr Speaker, through you, ...

Laughter 

Mr Deputy Speaker: Let us have order!

Mr Mumba: Mr Speaker, it was recently reported in one of the tabloids that the Secretary-General of our great party, the Patriotic Front (PF), was against the e-voucher system. May I find out from the hon. Minister whether he is in agreement with the statement.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, it is very clear from the celebration that this question has excited the hon. United Party for National Development (UPND) Members.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I want to clearly state that when the Secretary-General of the PF, Mr Davies Chama, was addressing the people of Kabwe and was asked about the e-voucher system, as a leader of high integrity, he chose not to respond to a matter that he felt he was incompetent to articulate. Instead, he called me. Through his cellular phone, I explained to the meeting that their issues would be addressed. One of the issues that the farmers in Kabwe were complaining about is the one that I have addressed this afternoon.

Sir, it was reported in two separate tabloids that the Secretary-General of the PF categorically said that he never at one time declared that the e-voucher system was a failure. He actually indicated to me that he is not as naive as those who would say that a car cannot start even before they put the key in the ignition. It is only naive people who do that and Mr Davies Chama is not such a one.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, where does the hon. Minister come from because he does strange things?

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that the private sector should come on board in supporting the production of cotton, yet it is doing very well in this aspect.

Ms Lubezhi: Correct!

Mr Mbewe: He further stated that the production of cotton will be supported by the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). Why is he distorting the work of the private sector which is doing very well?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, if, indeed, I do strange things which are adding value to the agriculture sector, I shall continue doing them. In this particular case, the private sector is performing an important function not only for cotton production, but also for the production of soya beans, sorghum and maize. However, the Government has decided to complement the efforts of the private sector so that more of our farmers can produce cotton. We would not like all the farmers to only receive subsidy from the Government to produce maize. This is the reason we have taken cotton on board and will not interfere with its marketing or for any other commodity for that matter. We shall do what we have been doing in the past. We will only buy for strategic reserves. 

So, the private sector and Cotton Board of Zambia are actually happy that the amount of cotton that will be produced next year, given the increase in hectares and seeds availed to the farmers, is going to increase. That will, obviously, mean more money in the pockets of our farmers, including those in Chadiza.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East): My question has been overtaken by events.

Mr Hamudulu (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, firstly, I want to put it on record that I am happy that cotton production will finally be supported by the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). However, the production of cotton is not just for the sake of adding onto the statistics of cotton growers in Zambia, but wanting to realise something at the end of the day. The Government buys maize for strategic reserves and supports maize production from the input stage. Therefore, I would like to find out what intervention measures the Government has put in place for cotton growers in relation to marketing cotton? While we understand that the private sector is doing this job and the Government has come on board from the input side, it follows that we expect some input in terms of corresponding efforts in marketing cotton.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I am glad that the hon. Member for Siavonga has just clarified the question raised by the hon. Member for Chadiza that he is happy that cotton has been included in FISP. When I was responding to the question from the hon. Member for Chadiza, I mentioned that I am happy that we are going to increase the hectares of land to be tilled for cotton production. That, obviously, follows that I am happy that we are going to increase the quantity of cotton that will be produced. 

Sir, we are putting in place measures to protect farmers, especially those who grow crops that are being supported by FISP. On one hand, we would not give them inputs and leave them to the vagaries of a market which tends to be exploitative sometimes. On the other hand, for the sake of the hon. Member, I would like to state that I recently signed a statutory instrument (SI) which stated the designated crops for the 2015/2016 Farming Season, and cotton was included on that list. 

So, the question I did not answer from my colleague from Chadiza was the question of where I come from.

Mr Mbewe: Yes.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I come from Kabwata Constituency where good people come from.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to say that my burden has been lightened. Secondly, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Patriotic Front (PF) Government on being a listening Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kalima: Sir, I want to tell the people of Kasenengwa that, “Pempho lanu lamveka,” meaning their request has been heard. To that effect, on their behalf, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when they will have access to this fertiliser. Is it immediately?

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I want to thank the hon. Member for commending the Government.

Mr Speaker, in my statement, I said the decision was made by the Government which is led by a very listening Head of State. I also indicated that this programme could not have materialised had it not been for an equally listening and supportive hon. Minister of Finance. I am sure my colleagues in the Cabinet would have shot this programme down had they not been concerned, but they all unanimously supported it. So, I will give kudos to His Excellency. Let me also state that the kudos from the hon. Member for Kasenengwa represent the farmers in the Southern Province. I am sure they are equally very excited about this. 

Sir, I said that I will kick off the release of the inputs on Saturday, 14th November, 2015. Yes, the farmers can now go to their warehouses and start receiving their fertilisers immediately because it is already in all the districts of the country.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

_______

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

PONTOON AT KAPALALA IN CHEMBE CONSTITUENCY

162. Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when the pontoon at Kapalala, in Chembe Parliamentary Constituency, would become fully operational; and

(b)    when pontoon staff houses would be constructed.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Mwali): Mr Speaker, Kapalala Pontoon is operational. The programme for the construction of houses for pontoon staff is not there for now. However, it may be considered once traffic improves.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

 The question was that: Is the pontoon fully operational?  

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, considering the current level of traffic at the pontoon, it is fully operational.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, since the pontoon is fully operational, the ministry is on record as having said that it intends to move the pontoon from where it is now to somewhere else. What is the position?

Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, the Patriotic Front (PF) Government commissioned the pontoon on 16th September, 2012. As of now, it has no intention of moving it anywhere else.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Livune (Katombola): Mr Speaker, does the Government have any intentions of constructing a bridge at this place so that people can have a better facility for life?

 Dr Mwali: Mr Speaker, currently, this Government does not have any plans of constructing a bridge because just north of this crossing point, there is Chembe Bridge. 

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

STAFFING LEVELS AT PRIMARY SCHOOLS IN SIKONGO CONSTITUENCY

163. Mr Ndalamei (Sikongo) asked the Minister of General Education:

(a)    what the staffing levels at the following primary schools in Sikongo Parliamentary Constituency were, as of August, 2015:

(i)    Lumbamba;

(ii)    Tuuwa;

(iii)    Kaletwa;

(iv)    Nene;

(v)    Lwahumba; and

(vi)    Katondwana;

(b)    of the schools above, how many were understaffed; and

(c)    when more teachers would be deployed to the understaffed schools.

The Deputy Minister of General Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, the staffing levels at the following primary schools in Sikongo Parliamentary Constituency as of August, 2015, were as follows:

Name of School        Staffing Levels    

Lumbamba    3
        
Tuuwa    5
    
Keletwa    2
    
Nene    3
    
Lwahumba    3
    
Katondwana    2

Sir, the schools mentioned above were understaffed as of August, 2015. Teachers will be deployed to the understaffed schools as soon as the recruitment process is completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform this House where he got this information from because there is only one teacher at Lumbamba Primary School who is teaching Grade 1 to Grade 7 classes. Now that the hon. Minister is aware that there is only one teacher at Lumbamba, will he send more teachers to assist the only teacher at this school.
Laughter

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

The question regarding where the hon. Minister got the information from is irrelevant, but the issue is that there is only one teacher at Lumbamba Primary School. 

 
Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, like I said, the recruitment exercise has just been completed. However, let me take this opportunity to appeal to him to engage the District Educational Board Secretary (DEBS) in Sikongo because even the answer that I gave earlier came from him.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Mufalali (Senanga): Mr Speaker, for how long have these schools have been understaffed?

 Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, going by the numbers that I gave, obviously, these schools have been understaffed for a while. In terms of specifics, I do not have them.

I thank you, Sir

 Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister is my friend. Since he has mentioned that the ministry has just completed recruiting some teachers, will he be kind enough to give us the probable time frame within which the teachers are likely to be deployed to various schools across the country, including Tafelansoni.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, I said that we are just concluding the recruitment exercise of the teachers. The hon. Minister of General Education will inform the august House and the general public on the deployment at the right time.

 I thank you, Sir.

 Mr Livune: Mr Speaker, the concern is when the Government will complete the recruitment exercise of teachers because there are reports that the Government has abandoned the exercise. Can the hon. Minister be categorical in stating when the teachers will finally be employed and deployed to the various schools that need them.

Mr Deputy Speaker: Order!

 Maybe, let me take advantage of that question to guide the House.

We have always advised the Executive to stick to the question and answer it as it is. When you go beyond what has been asked, it means that you have opened a Pandora’s box.

The Minister of General Education (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, if the House needs any reinforcement in terms of information as it is being demanded, please, note that this Government does not work on speculations because it has a programme in place. 

Sir, we said that we are recruiting 5,000 teachers, this year, and that is the exercise the hon. Deputy Minister just confirmed has been concluded. We are yet to inform this House and the nation about the outcome of that exercise.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Mazoka (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out the reason our country’s schools have shortages of teachers when training colleges produce hundreds of teachers every year. After graduating from these colleges, where do these teachers go?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the number of schools in need of teachers is big. With that large number, there are attendant problems of teachers going on transfer or not reporting to the schools that they were originally meant to report to. This last recruitment drive has taken care of those factors that are responsible for some schools, particularly those in rural areas, being understaffed. 

Sir, as a Government, we are hoping that when we announce the results of the recruitment drive, which was driven by the districts and provinces, we can say, with confidence, that our teachers will report to the schools to which they have been deployed and stay there.

I thank you, Sir.

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 20 − (Loans and Investment – Local Government and Housing – K352,070,016) and VOTE 29 – ( Ministry of Local Government and Housing – K984,100,179).

(Consideration resumed)

Ms Kalima (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to continue with my debate. Before Parliament was suspended last Friday, I was ...

Mr L. Ngoma: Suspended? Who suspended it?

Ms Kalima: Whatever it is.

When the House adjourned last Friday, I was talking about how the councils do not follow laid-down procedure when it comes to approving projects embarked on using the Constituency Development Funds (CDFs). I indicated that it is very disappointing to note that a number of CDF projects that have not been approved by the District Development Co-ordinating Committees (DDCCs) have been implemented by the local authorities.

When hon. Members of Parliament and members of the DDCCs are questioned about certain projects, they usually do not have answers. There is also no follow up made to establish how these funds could have been utilised. My appeal is that even as we spend so much money from the Budget, there is a need to ensure that it is accounted for. It is important for the council secretaries, town clerks, Permanent Secretaries and hon. Ministers responsible for different ministries to ensure that these funds are spent on their intended purposes.

Sir, there is also a need to ensure that all the irregularities are stopped. We have had situations where full council meetings have been called even when council secretaries and DDCC members know that Parliament is in session. For instance, a full council meeting was called in Chipata, last week, on Tuesday and Wednesday, knowing well that the National Assembly is in session. We all know that the business of the National Assembly takes precedence over council meetings. So, what it means is that if council meetings are held when the National Assembly is in session, then, hon. Members of Parliament will be denied an opportunity to make contributions to the councils.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to follow up this issue. I am glad that we have a new hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing who has the vigour to follow that up. I know that this is not only happening in the Eastern Province, but also many councils across the country.

Sir, I also spoke about the drilling of boreholes. My heart bleeds when I see how our councils have continued misusing funds. On the Floor of this House, I once gave an example of how I had a borehole drilled at K7,000, yet the Government boreholes are sunk at prices ranging between K35,000 and K40,000. I get concerned and it really hurts me to see how Government funds are being spent.

Mr Chairperson, we are a rich country, yet we always want to complain about being in a crisis or that there is not enough money in the country when money is just being misused. The Government now ends up sinking only two boreholes from an amount which would, ordinarily, sink about ten boreholes. This should be halted. So, again, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to get involved in such projects. 

Mr Speaker, I have said, time and again, that the success of the Patriotic Front (PF) is my success and that of the rest of Zambia. I am appealing to Hon. Kampyongo, the newly-appointed Minister of Local Government and Housing, to look into this problem and resolve it. I want to hear him echo the words of his colleague, the hon. Minister of Agriculture, that the PF is a listening Government. We want to have a situation where he will come to this House to tell us that we have a new regulation regarding the drilling of boreholes. We want the Government to save that little money from the sinking of boreholes.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to state that as young politicians, let us ensure that we inspire the younger people who want to join politics. Earlier in the day, as I was listening to Hot FM Radio Station, I heard how some people expect the older hon. Members of Parliament to step aside and give a chance to the younger ones. So, as young politicians, we must show the people that they can go into the various constituencies and compete for positions against the older people. That is what we did, and some people stepped down. So, you, as hon. Ministers, can inspire the younger generation to join politics depending on how you handle these jobs. I have in mind the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries and the hon. Minister of Youth, Sport and Child Development. I am not debating hon. Members, but all I am saying is that we are privileged to be in these positions. So, let us show the people that we can perform our duties.

Sir, I am glad that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has already started visiting markets. Markets are places which provide informal jobs to some people. However, I have noted that most of them have been leased. For instance, the Kamwala Market and the Town Centre Market are both on a sixty-five-year lease. The owners of these markets are charging in dollars. You know that the performance of the kwacha against the United States dollar and other major currencies has not been so good lately. If, previously, you were paying K2,000 in rentals, this time around, you have to pay K4,000. Most of the tenants are Zambians, who are finding it very difficult to operate from these markets. They can hardly make profit. 

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude, let me appeal to the hon. Minister that we want to see change on this matter. The hon. Minister should bring a ministerial statement to this House outlining the interventions to be taken on this lease. We also need to know how this lease came about because sixty-five years is a long period of time. If we allow this situation to continue, at what point will we benefit, as Zambians? 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Miyutu (Kalabo Central): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to add a few words to the debate on Head 20 – Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Decentralisation Secretariat – K352,070,016. Services of the local authorities should have a positive impact on the lives of people, especially in rural areas like Kalabo, Sikongo, Liuwa and Kaputa. However, it is very difficult to see and feel any positive effect that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has in rural areas. This ministry is responsible for very important tasks like providing water and sanitation. So, why are few boreholes sunk in rural areas? This is an exercise that requires great effort. 

Mr Chairperson, it is unfortunate that fifty-one years after Independence, many people in rural areas still do not have access to clean and safe drinking water. The Government still depends on donor funds to provide this service. It seems the Government’s priorities are in other areas which do not even benefit people in rural areas. Whenever I go to remote places in this country, I wonder when the people there will have access to clean water. 

Mr Chairperson, since I came to this House in 2011, the Budget has always reflected an allocation for the sinking of about 2,000 boreholes countrywide every year. If we divided 2,000 by 150 constituencies, we would have about forty boreholes in each constituency. However, out of the forty boreholes, only five will be sunk if a particular constituency is lucky. I would like to know when we will have a practical Budget that will truly have an effect on the lives of people. 

Sir, in my constituency, there are places where people still use shallow wells to get water. With the negative effects of climate change, I do not know where the people in these areas will access water. In places like Mitwi, all the water points have dried up and there are no boreholes. People have to trek very long distances to fetch water.

Mr Chairperson, the Government must stop depending on donors to provide services in rural areas because donor funds usually come with conditions, which the Government is unable to overrule. There is a need to realise that these conditions make it difficult to adequately serve our people, especially in rural areas. 

For example, when donors give funding, they will dictate that no borehole should be sunk in the villages that are within a 10 km radius of the district headquarters. Since the money is not ours, we agree to such conditions. However, not all the villages that are within the 10 km radius of the district headquarters are serviced by the Western Water and Sewerage Company (WWSC), for instance. So, the people in that coverage area will not have access to clean water. 

Mr Chairperson, if we continue agreeing to such discriminative conditions, when are the people in such villages going to have access to clean and safe drinking water? When we are given such conditions, the Government should service the areas that have been excluded from the beneficiaries of donor funds. All the people in rural areas are Zambians who are supposed to benefit from clean and safe drinking water.

Mr Chairperson, it is very disheartening to have successive governments …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Miyutu: Even if my colleagues on your right say, “Question,” I do not mind.

Interruptions

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the Government has talked about working on township roads through programmes such as the Copperbelt 400 (C400) Kilometre Road Project and the Lusaka 400 (L400) Kilometre Road Project in Lusaka. Therefore, should the people of Kalabo all migrate to these areas?

Ms Kapata: Yes!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, maybe, you can advise the people who are interjecting because if I respond to them, they may commit suicide.

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Concentrate on the debate, please, and address the Chair.

You may continue. 

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, Zambia is composed of ten provinces and the constituencies in these provinces include Kalabo Central and Sikongo. The country stretches beyond 1,000 km from Lusaka. When we participated in fighting for Independence, we did so out of our own volition without any external influence or being forced. Even in the elections of this country, we vote willingly and freely. So, we are part of the process of choosing who is in the Government. We, therefore, want township roads to be constructed in Kalabo. The Government assured the people of Kalabo that 9.2 km of township roads would be upgraded in the area. The programme has started, but the completion deadline has been changed from 2015 to an indefinite date. It is likely that whoever will be in the Government in 2017 will push the completion date of the project further. So, we do not even know when this project will be completed. Since Kalabo is a rural township, it is like the people there are not supposed to benefit from a good road network. 

Sir, in order to stop the rural-urban drift of the population in Kalabo, we need to provide social services in rural areas such as upgrading roads to bituminous standard. Hon. Sampa and Hon. Col. Panji Kaunda, who are unfortunately not around, have seen how bad the roads in Kalabo are. Hon. Dr Mwali was in Kalabo and drove on the road from Kalabo to Sikongo. As I am speaking, I know how he is feeling.

Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Now, if a visitor to Kalabo feels sad about the situation, what about those of us who stay there? We want the roads to be worked on. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has been to Kalabo. The idea of changing programmes because you are dealing with rural areas is not good. Stick to your programmes so that the people in rural areas feel honoured or respected. The people in rural areas should feel they have room in this Government. We do not want those ugly roads. We also want the type of roads the Government is constructing here in Lusaka. We do not want to ride on stories. This issue of road infrastructure is the Government’s baby to nurse.

Mr Chairperson, concerning the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), one day, there will be a Government that will listen to the people.

Mr Livune: UPND, next year.

Mr Miyutu: Naturally, a negative will not follow another negative.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Belemu: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: There is no such nature.

Mr Belemu: That is science now.

Mr Miyutu: So, since we have a Government that seems to neglect rural areas, I am sure that within the shortest period of time, we will have a Government that will be positive about the plight of people in rural areas.

Mr Milambo: UPND, mwana.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: How can nature disadvantage the rural communities continuously?

Mr Sing’ombe: No, it is not possible.

Mr Miyutu: It cannot be like that.

Mr Livune: That is right.

Mr Miyutu: One day, we shall have a Government that will listen to the voices of the people in rural areas.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Zambia forward.

Mr Miyutu: The CDF has remained static.

Mr Livune: It shall be increased.

Mr Miyutu: It is still static. It is the only money in Zambia which has a direct and positive impact on the people in rural areas. This is the money which the Government should have considered to increase so that we have accelerated development in rural areas.

Mr Livune: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, for the past four years, there has not been any school built in Kalabo. So, if the CDF is not increased, it means that there will be a lack of development in rural areas. It means those staff houses for teachers and health workers will not be built. Small culverts will also not be worked on. We are heading towards the rainy season, but the Government is not building bridges, culverts and constructing roads. If the CDF was enough to carry out some of these works, the people in the rural areas would have their lives improved. 

Mr Chairperson, the Government has been given power by the people, and so, I would urge it to use it to serve the people in rural areas because this power was not only bestowed upon it by the people in urban areas, but also the people in urban towns who originate from the villages in the rural areas. So, this CDF is very important for those of us in the rural areas. It is this money that can be used to carry out works. 

Mr Chairperson, all the major Government projects, for instance, in Kalabo, have stalled. However, those projects under the CDF are operating. So, you can see that if you put money in the CDF, all the things that the Government fails to implement will be implemented by the local authority and people will see that there is work being done in these rural areas. 

Mr Chairperson, I would urge and request that this K1,400,000 be increased so that it covers a wide range of projects. There are no roads in Kalabo. People walk long distances to access medical care. So, I believe that with an increased and better CDF, we would be able to construct clinics and staff houses.

Mr Livune: It will be 6 million under the UPND.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, with these words, I would like to say thank you.

Mr Mbulakulima (Chembe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you most sincerely for this rare opportunity to make some few remarks on the debate on this important ministry.

Mr Chairperson, you may wish to know that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is not only my nephew, but also represents my children. 

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: He represents my children in his constituency. I will, therefore, just offer advice to the hon. Minister free of charge. Most of the statements made by hon. Members are quite helpful. The hon. Minister can take one or two things from there.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I want to comment on fire engines. You know there have been a lot of fire breakouts and the nation is looking up to you, as a ministry, to see how best the effects of this situation can be mitigated.

Mr Chairperson, some of the reasons we are unable to control this situation are that, from Independence or even beyond, we have had only one central location at which fire engines are stationed. With this current congestion in town, the fire engines are not able to reach out to areas on fire in good time. I want the hon. Minister to go out there and ensure that we decentralise the fire station. Imagine a fire breakout in Chinika, Chilenje, or Chelstone, how do the fire engines reach out to these places with this congestion? Therefore, hon. Minister, it is important that you set up fire stations in various places like Chilenje, Chilanga and Chelstone.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbulakulima: These will definitely allow our professionals to reach out. I must state, hon. Minister, that there is …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Mbulakulima: … a practical example. Last year, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mbulakulima: We are senior Members of Parliament.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor, who is a resident of Kabwata Constituency, in order to talk about Chilenje and state that it has no fire station without appreciating the hard work of the person who represents him in this House? This Member of Parliament (pointing at himself) is currently constructing a fire station in Chilenje which the hon. Member on the Floor is very aware of. He has gone ahead to claim that there is only one fire station in Lusaka when there is a fire station being constructed by this hardworking Member of Parliament right under his nose, in fact, close to his house. 

Is he in order, Sir?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: In so far as the hon. Member is still debating, he is in order because, perhaps, that is the point that he was going to raise later.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I am offering advice to my nephew, who is listening very attentively.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: A practical example, hon. Minister, illustrates that the firemen are very efficient in some ways. Last year, in August, there was a fire breakout at my residence in Lilayi, near Hon. Lubinda’s residence. It took less than twelve minutes for the firemen to get to my home because it was about 0630 hours in the morning. This means that the roads were clear of traffic. So, if we have clear routes, some of these hazards will be avoided.

Secondly, Mr Chairperson, it is the issue of illegal dumping of garbage. Hon. Minister, there is a new trend with regard to solid waste management. People have now developed a system whereby they fill sacks with waste and strategically wait for 2000 hours or 2200 hours, when it is dark, to dump them in some areas. So, if you go into most residential areas, you will find that this is now a common trend. I know that there is a law on waste management, but we are not enforcing it. I think there is a need, like I have said on fire stations, for dump sites to be dotted around the city because they are very scarce at the moment. 

We also need to open up dump sites in all the areas of Lusaka to handle this new trend. Otherwise, we risk contamination in many areas.

Mr Chairperson, the third issue, which is a source of concern, and an embarrassment, although it seems normal to some people, is that of street vending. I was in Sudan three weeks ago and was surprised that we were taken to a very far off place for our lunch. We were told that our hosts wanted us to see a certain building. This building was enviable. It was a good building. 

Mr Chairperson, if one wants to see Lusaka, one only needs to go to the Great East Road and Independence Road fly over bridges. However, the Independence Road Flyover Bridge Area is now taken up by vendors. It is an embarrassment before an international visitor. If you check through your window, our colleagues have even moved on to the road itself. 

Mr Chairperson, if you remember, the place where Burma Market stands was an eyesore a few years ago. Black plastic bags were dotted all over until the Burma Market was constructed. The market has brought beauty. However, on the left side of the Independence Road Flyover Bridge, as you head to town, the whole area along the railway line is an embarrassment. We know that we need to survive, but surely not in that state. Something needs to be done. I believe that the hon. Minister can do something about this because he has the capacity.

Mr Chairperson, the fourth part of my free advice regards the issue of incomplete buildings. When we raise issues, we mean well. We cannot continue with certain situations. I worked for the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC) from 1986. By 1992, we had completed the structure between Katondo and Freedom Way. From 1992 to date, it is still standing in the same way. Where will the people cry out to? It is only the Ministry of Local Government and Housing that can sort out such problems.

Mr Chairperson, when I was in form V, I watched a movie at a place called Astra, in Kitwe. When I left the Zambia National Service (ZNS), I found that the building had been brought down. You can imagine when it was that I left the ZNS but to date, nothing has been built in that place. Who will serve the people? Who will answer the people’s call if the Government does not get serious on behalf of the people?

Mr Chairperson, I can brag that as Minister for the Copperbelt, I made a difference. The place where Nkana Hotel stands today was an eyesore. We worked hard to ensure that the Kitwe City Council (KCC) answered the people’s call. Today, we are proud that there is a shopping mall coming up there. This is the way it is supposed to be. There are many structures in the country that need the attention of local councils. I reiterate my belief in the hon. Minister’s capacity to handle such cases.

Mr Chairperson, I could go on and on but, for today, my role was to advise my nephew that we can rely on him.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you most sincerely.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to debate this particular Vote. 

Sir, as I reflect, this is one part of the Government that has been going in reverse over years.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: It has been regressing as opposed to advancing. There seems to be some positives everywhere else since the 1990s. However, this particular sector is the only one that is always going backwards.

Mr Livune: In reverse.

Mr Belemu: For example, we have talked about decentralisation for years, but what is happening in practice is the reverse. There was a time that the local government used to collect most of the taxes, including road licences. All those have since moved to the Central Government. 

Ms Lubezhi: Correct.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, when the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power, it went on rampage creating ministries. We advised that some of the ministries that were being created were actually negating decentralisation. As we stand, they get very happy when we create a ministry at central level. If you want to decentralise, you do not create a ministry at central level. Instead, form structures of decentralisation at local level.

Mr Chairperson, when you compare the provisions of the Local Government Act and what is happening, you will find that the Act has not been amended and the functions of the local government are being taken away by the Central Government.

Mr Mufalali: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Until we reach a level where those functions revert to local government, we will talk about budgets over and over, but will not do anything tangible.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, it was my expectation that in this final year of the PF’s rule, some of those things would have been reversed.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Do they know anything, mwana?

Mr Belemu: Now, we are told that every ministry wants to form structures at district level and some of them want to go further down. The sad part is that none of those structures are linked up to the councils as they report to themselves.

Mr Livune: PF cadres.

Mr Belemu: This is in contrast with the Local Government Act on the functions of local councils or authorities. If we want to be serious about the local government, we have to be serious about decentralisation and certain things have to be reversed. However, we do not see any reversal in the current Budget or policy statement other than the usual talking.

Mr Livune: The UPND will reverse them.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, the second aspect is human resource in local authorities. When I worked for a local authority, many years ago, I was told that the Government was trying to build capacity. Even now, if you ask, you will be told that the Government is still trying to build capacity in the local authority before it can decentralise. Those of us who were there many years ago left and many more are leaving every day.

Mr Livune: And you are the professionals.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, the point is that some of the problems that we are going through in local authorities, as regards human resource, are self-inflicted. When you look at what has been happening over the years, particularly from the re-introduction of the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC), more and more people, who are not qualified for positions, are being employed. It has become a conduit for people to employ relatives and apply all sorts of vices. 

Mr Chairperson, currently, there is no merit in the appointment of chief officers in local authorities. I can give you the statistics of who works in which council and what level of qualification they possess. There is no merit, yet the Government hopes that there will be some level of decentralisation and local authorities will deliver one day, somehow, when we wake up. They will not deliver. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a problem right now. My council, for example, has had about five town clerks since 2011. We are always paying settling-in allowance.

Mr Livune: Shame.

Mr Belemu: When you look at the qualification and calibre of these people, a lay person can tell that they do not qualify to head a municipal like Choma.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: A Grade 12.

Mr Belemu: We are talking about the lack of capacity, but who has created this situation? It is the Government, through the LGSC. It employs these people and then wakes up one morning and says, “We cannot do this and that because councils have no capacity.” Things that councils used to do cannot be done anymore due to the education levels of staff.

Mr N. Banda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, there is a point at which you try to streamline the operations of councils and the relevance of jobs. As we speak, councils are now highly bloated. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You will be given a chance to respond as Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Belemu: Who is that one?

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, most of the councils have extra manpower that they do not need.

Hon. Opposition Members: Like firemen. 

Mr Belemu: Yes. For example, some councils have thirty firemen, and some of these are mere Grade 12 school leavers. How can they fight fires, when there is ...

Mr Mwiimbu: There is no equipment.

Mr Belemu: These firemen are not qualified to fight fires. They have not been anywhere near fire apart from fire used for cooking in villages.

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, if we went to places that have had fire incidents recently to find out whether the firemen who went there rendered any help, we would find that they did nothing. I actually know how to stop fires better than some of the people that councils have employed as firemen. 

Ms Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Ms Kapata: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member who is on the Floor in order to start debating the Local Government Service Commission when the Vote which we are debating is the Ministry of Local Government and Housing? The functions he is talking about are under the Local Government Service Commission. 

Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member should debate the Votes that are under consideration and not the Local Government Service Commission. To that extent, he was out of order. 

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I was referring to the policy regarding ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

My decision has been made. You are not supposed to modify it. Debate the issues and do not modify my ruling.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, these councils are troubled such that they cannot even provide simple services. For example, they cannot put out a small fire at a shop in the community. These councils have excess human resources, but are still unable to provide services. The extra human resources have been pushed into the councils by the Government against the will of the councils. Some councils even have many so-called council police officers who do nothing. 

Mr Chairperson, the other matter I would like to raise is about council by-laws. Every time I visit any town where there is a council, I always go to witness what happens in the council meetings. I have observed that councils now do not even obey their own by-laws. For instance, a meeting can be called at 0900 hours, but it will end up taking place at 1200 hours. Councils can announce and reverse decisions regardless of what their own by-laws say. My view is that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing must improve his capacity to supervise what is going on in councils. As I speak now, councils can meet at will and in any way that they want. Some of them even meet at wrong times, times which are not prescribed by their own by-laws or regulations. 

Mr Chairperson, district chairpersons and mayors have been allowed to operate in councils as if they are executive officers too. These are ceremonial positions, but if we went to any council, at the moment, we would find a district chairperson or mayor seated in the office. These people are supposed to be at the office for only two or three days in a week. However, these days, they are always in the office with documents on their tables. Some of them even write recommendations on allocation of land. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing has failed to guide the councils regarding the office of mayors and district chairpersons. This trend of having mayors and district chairpersons at the council offices constantly has led to corruption in councils. I want the ministry to guide the councils so that they can know that those two positions are ceremonial and not executive ones. The mayor and the district chairperson are not supposed to report to the council offices every day because that drains council resources. 

Mr Chairperson, there are some funny resolutions that have been passed by the councils recently, and I am surprised that the ministry has not noticed them. Some of these resolutions are clearly against the law. Others clearly border on corruption. A number of them are clearly outside the budget that has been passed and approved by the ministry. The ministry must jack itself up. Councils now behave like their only function is land allocation. The only function which councils seem to understand now is land allocation. I want councils to revert to performing all the functions that are stipulated in the Local Government Act. Some officers in the councils are being shielded from prosecution for their wrongdoing for some unknown reasons. 

Mr Chairperson, my view is that the performance of the local government is negative. We are not progressing in any area of local government. Therefore, I urge the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to jack itself up to improve the situation. I can give an example of the lack of progress in the Local Government Service Commission. Grading of a road in my constituency commenced in 2011 but, to date, the works on this road have not been completed because the Ministry of Local Government and Housing chose to supervise the work, instead of the local council. This shows the extent to which the local government system has failed to perform its functions. If you went to Mbabala Parliamentary Constituency, you would find a lot of problems in the community that require very basic attention from the local government. However, officers in the councils are so busy doing nothing. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing has allowed them to attend workshops almost everywhere in the country and the region. As I speak, some officers from the council in my constituency are in Lusaka. Next week, they will be in Livingstone, and the other week, I am sure they will be in Kasama. I am told that some of them are at Government Complex here in Lusaka. 

Laughter

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, there are no senior staff members present in the councils at any given time because they are always away attending workshops. The mayors and district chairpersons are also usually absent. I want this trend to be reversed because attending workshops is not the original intent of having officers employed in local government. Local government is supposed to deliver services to the community, but there are no services being delivered in communities. However, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing keeps approving budgets for the councils. Some of the budgets for these councils are very unreasonable and unrealistic. 

Sir, I think that this time, the budgets for the councils must be scrutinised fully and councils must give a report on how they implemented the previous budget. Every year, budgets for the councils, which include the Ward Development Fund, are approved. However, this is my fourth year as a Member of Parliament and there has never been any Ward Development Fund distributed in the wards in my constituency. All the monies allocated in the budgets for the councils go to paying allowances such as settling-in allowances for officers. When the officers are done with settling, they start attending innumerable workshops. Therefore, they cannot provide services to the people in their communities. 

Mr Livune: Shemuna, bane. Shame.

Mr Belemu: Mr Chairperson, I think that councils must revert to their original purpose. They must collect levies and charges under their jurisdiction. Land allocation must not keep them too busy, and should not be their only source of revenue. They must work to deliver services to the people. 

Mr Chairperson, in the last ten seconds or so of my time, I want to talk about how equipment from the ministry is distributed to councils. This is very worrying.  

Ms Lubezhi: Correct. 

Mr Belemu: There is no set criterion. In one instance, you will see a fire tender being handed over on television. In other places, where trucks cannot really reach, trucks are being handed over. Other places are being given vans. Why can there not be a criterion used to distribute equipment so that everybody knows which equipment he or she is likely to receive from the local government and at what point. 

These days, all we see is equipment being handed over to councils on Muvi Television. The reasons this equipment is being handed over or how these particular councils are settled on, no one knows. 

Mr Livune: Shame!

Mr Belemu: There must be a system of giving equipment or support by the local government. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Chairperson, …

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: I said Hon. Mooya, followed by Hon. Muchima. 

Laughter 

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. I call Hon. Muchima national milling because of his white hair. 

Laughter 

Mr Mooya: Back to Business. Sir, I support this Vote. I have two issues that I want to talk about and these are housing and the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

On housing, the hon. Minister talked about a new policy. Sir, for the past two years, we have been hearing about this policy. Let it come into fruition because the problem of housing is worsening. In 1996, we had a shortfall or backlog of 840,000 housing units. According to the information that we have, the backlog is about 3,000,000 today. 

Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that the first policy of 1996 was an award winning document. This was a policy that did not reduce the housing deficit. So, let this new housing policy come quickly so that we can arrest this deficit. 

Mr Chairperson, I would like to come to the CDF. I heard the hon. Minister talk about annual returns and the preferable implementation of big projects that will have an impact. I think that these two issues are related. Implementation of large projects needs more time. So, my appeal, like I said earlier, is that these returns be made after two years because one year is too tight, hon. Minister. Some constituencies are failing to justify or retire their CDF because of this limited time. 

Ms Lubezhi: Correct.

Mr Mooya: Let us have a time frame of more than twelve months to retire the CDF. I suggest twenty-four months …

Ms Lubezhi: Correct

Mr Mooya: … to retire the CDF. Within these twenty-four months, the unused CDF can pileup. Give it out any way and do not put up restrictions on its use. As a matter of fact, the more CDF we have, the more meaningful it becomes ... 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: … in the implementation of big projects which will have an impact. So, revise this time frame. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.  

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

Mr Mooya: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was lobbying for the time frame within which the CDF is to be retired to be increased from twelve to twenty-four months, which is two years. Many of things take place. 

Mr Chairperson, when I first came here in January, 2002, the CDF was K30,000. The current time frame was applicable. However, today, the CDF has increased to K1,400,000. Therefore, we also need to change the time required to retire it.  

Sir, further, this year, there was a circular issued that we should use standard drawings in whatever projects we want to implement, be it in the construction of dip tanks or schools. These drawings should be obtained from line ministries. The circular further stated that these drawings must be accompanied by a bill of quantities. This takes a lot of time. We may have the architectural drawings, but no engineering drawings and someone has to run up and down, from ministry to ministry, in search of these. Unfortunately, some ministries may not have certain details. Even the Ministry of Works and Supply, Buildings Department, may not have these details. Meanwhile, time keeps moving. So, hon. Minister, time must be increased from twelve months to twenty-four months. 

Also, only sending the CDF to 120-something constituencies ...

Mr Kalaba: On a point of order, Sir. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah, Foreign Affairs Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised. 

Mr Kalaba: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order. However, today, I rise on a very serious one and seek your very serious ruling.

Sir, this House has very clear rules on dress code and these are clearly laid down in the Standing Orders. Is the Member of Parliament for Muchinga, Hon. Howard Kunda, who is my nephew and is dressed like Kanda Bongo Man, ...

Laughter 

Mr Kalaba: ... in order to come to the House in that attire? I seek your serious ruling.

Interruptions 

The Deputy Chairperson: Since he is very far from where I am seated, I will ask for the assistance of the Clerks at the Table to ascertain the mode of dress. The ruling will, therefore, be given later. 

Mr Mooya: Sir, because of these challenges, some constituencies lag behind. To be fair, all 150 constituencies should be given their 2015 CDF at the same time. Just give them. They have not used it up because of the conditions I have stated. I am lobbying for all 150 constituencies to be given their 2015 CDF.

Mr Chairperson, since I came into the House, I have listened to four Presidents make fourteen President’s Speeches on housing. All the Presidents have been singing a song about the measures they will introduce to solve the housing backlog. However, none of them has impressed me because the problem keeps getting worse. We probably have to wait for the seventh President to tackle this issue.

I thank you, Sir. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I reserved my ruling a few minutes ago and would like to make it now, before I call upon the next debater. The ruling is that notwithstanding the colourful nature of the jacket the hon. Member is wearing, he appears to have complied with the dress code. So, to that extent, he is in order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima (Ikeleng’i): Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is a critical ministry to the country because it gives hope to the poor people. The Ministry of Local Housing is an answer to development issues and that is the reason hon. Members who were in the House at the time created the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) supported it. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing is supposed to attend to even the smallest issues at council level.

Sir, I congratulate the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. He is young, vibrant and talks with passion. We want him to re-evaluate the functions of these councils. I would miss a clinic or school in my constituency, but I would not miss a council in my area because they do not contribute anything. Councils are just a drain and the money given to them must be taken to other places. We do not see the councils’ contributions. 

Mr Chairperson, an hon. Member has already talked about decentralisation. This is an already decentralised ministry, but the powers have still remained here in Lusaka. A councillor, especially with humble education at our local levels, is not considered anything by the ministry officers. It seems that council officials are councillors while the councillors have become workers. It seems that people at council level are only interested in a sitting allowance and are used as rubber stamps. They are used in making decisions, but there seems to be no benefit being felt by the local people. That is why they do not want hon. Members of Parliament to attend those meetings. They want these meetings to take place while we are busy here.

Sir, the hon. Minister needs to review the performance of the councils. Some councils are not worth being called such. Having worked in the Government for a long time and also having spent some time in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, I have noticed that the problem has to do with the calibre of officers that are sent to the councils. Stop putting cadres to manipulate elections in councils. The Government wants these officers to manipulate elections and that amounts to corruption.

Mr Chairperson, we need to look at local areas and see whether we have people who are qualified to take up these positions before we start transferring our relatives to these places. These people who are sent to work at these councils do not have the interest of the people at heart. I do not know what the council in Ikeleng’i, which is where I come from, does. It just seems to wait for the CDF. However, since the CDF has not come, the officers are just lazing around. It seems that hon. Members of Parliament are their enemies because we know what really goes on. The answer to whatever question you ask is that the councils are following guidelines from headquarters, but those guidelines are being made by junior officers here in Lusaka for their own interests.

Laughter 

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, ever since our powers to determine the CDF were withdrawn, how many cases of theft of the CDF involving officers have been recorded?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muchima: However, the Government keeps protecting them. Decentralisation means giving power to the people. The councillor, hon. Member of Parliament and the local community should have total power and authority, but that is not the case at the moment. 

Sir, if you went to England, you would see the decentralisation I am talking about and how local councils operate. However, go to Shang’ombo or Ikeleng’i and you will see the difference. Council officials are always being called to Lusaka. What do they come to do here? Excuses are always given for what they come to do, but what do they really come to do? We need them in those areas. Although you say staffing levels involve the Local Government Service Commission, you are the hon. Minister. Let us put qualified people who have the interests of the people in office. When recruiting ...

The Deputy Chairperson: I would be failing in my duty if I did not remind you that we will debate the Local Government Service Commission after these two votes. You may have to conserve your points.

Mr Muchima: Thank you very much for your guidance.

Sir, I have been a Lusaka resident since I came here with my elder brother in 1972. I have lived in most places in Lusaka. 

Mr Chairperson, it is a nightmare for a Zambian to apply for a plot, through the council, and manage to get it. However, a foreigner will be offered a plot within a day of applying for it. I do not know what kind of eyes or influence the people at the council have. I think that is where corruption comes in. This habit where plots are given to councillors such that you find one person has about seven, eight to ten plots must be stopped. All the plots should be advertised and allocated accordingly, on a first-come, first-served basis. We should not allow a situation where plots are advertised when they have already been shared among concillors. In Lusaka, it is difficult for a Zambian to get a plot.  

Sir, a foreigner can manage to get a plot and start building at any time. Whenever people want to buy plots, they are told that plots have already been taken up. Why is it so? This country is for Zambians and they should be given priority. If we mean business, let us revisit this issue. Why do we want to deny ourselves what belongs to us just because of a khaki envelope? Those people are just milking us. One day, they will eventually leave this country. The hon. Minister has more years here on earth than some of us because he is still young. Therefore, if he is not careful, he will suffer more than us. 

Mr Chairperson, this Government allocated money for housing units to be built in new districts such as Mafinga and Ikeleng’i. I will give an example of Mafinga and Ikeleng’i …

Ms Namugala: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Why?

Mr Muchima: … because these districts were created by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) before the Patriotic Front (PF) came into power. When the PF Government came into power, it began creating districts without proper planning. 

Mr Ndalamei: Outbreak of districts.

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, these ten housing units are still at foundation level. It was decided that the money to complete their construction be sent to the councils, but the PF Government is changing its stance. It is now saying that the money will be controlled by the ministry. The construction of these houses has not been completed. Each time I talk about the PF Government not working, you think I am joking. Those housing units are still at foundation level. Currently, officers who stay in Mwinilunga cover 80 km every day to get to Ikeleng’i because not a single house has been built for them. I think the hon. Minister must take keen interest in this issue. He should find time to take a deliberate tour of the councils so that he can see what I am talking about.  

Sir, when plots are being sold, there is what they call service charges. We want serviced plots like those in State Lodge, where the late President’s plot is situated. Those are the kind of serviced plots we want. When a plot is serviced, it is located in an area which has tarred roads, electricity and water. Even when you want to sell it, the buyer will appreciate it. In Zambia, most of the plots are in the bush. Some surveyors will just point at the bush and say, “That is where your plot is,” even when you have paid the service charge. That is daylight robbery. When people pay, you should use the money on what it is intended for. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing should be involved in all these activities. 

Mr Chairperson, I am also aware that there is the Local Government Equalisation Fund. The ministry should be involved in the maintenance of roads and bridges in the townships, but that is not the case. The other day, I heard that the Government will implement the Decentralisation Policy. I was happy, but the question is: Where will the power be devolved to with this calibre of councillors?” Why do they fear to involve the hon. Members of Parliament who champion a very good cause in a Parliament like this one? In places such as Lusaka, Ndola, Kitwe and Livingstone, the calibre of councillors is better than that in the rural areas. In rural areas, you will find that the hon. Members of Parliament are told to just be members of the councils and they are prohibited to do certain things. What is the fear all about? Let the hon. Members of Parliament, who understand issues, be a part and parcel of the leadership at the local level. I would not want to start stealing from and manipulating my council. I would want to guide the councillors in everything they do. However, this Government has deliberately given the power to people whom it can easily manipulate. The Government should revisit this decision. 

Mr Chairperson, the CDF guidelines should be revisited. There is too much interference from the top executive. We want the CDF of each financial year to be given in January. This is November, but we do not even know when we will receive the CDF for 2015. We do not even dream about it. I hear that, in Chongwe, this is when the CDF for 2014 will be received. 

Mrs Masebo: Yes!

Mr Muchima: Mr Chairperson, we need that CDF. If we will not be given, I will instigate my fellow hon. Members of Parliament to not approve the Budget. I will tell them to simply walk away.

Mr Chairperson, water and sanitation is critical in this country. In Ikeleng’i, we have rivers everywhere, but the water is dirty. Why can we not buy some pumps and put up tanks so that our people can drink clean water? This Government had sunk boreholes, but most of them have dried up. These boreholes were sunk at a very high cost and the other day, we debated why this Government had spent so much money on the boreholes. A borehole is sunk today and dries up the following day. Most of the boreholes this Government sunk in Ikeleng’i and Mwinilunga have dried up. That is theft of Government resources. 

Sir, the Government should give us that money so that we can dig even just wells. In K46,000, I can dig about fifteen wells in an area rather than spend such kind of money on a borehole which will only last for a week. If the hon. Minister wants me to continue appreciating this Government, power should be moved from Lusaka to the rural areas. The hon. Minister should lead by example and deal with this issue. He should not listen to the old politics of, “wa muyayaya, wa muyayaya.” The hon. Minister should show us that he can do it. He will not be in Parliament forever. These things we are talking about are real. He will only realise them when he is no longer in office. This is time to work so that when the hon. Minister is out of the office, he will see what he had done in places such as Shiwang’andu. If the hon. Minister does not do it now, he will start regretting when he is reshuffled or when the Government is no longer in power. 

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about electrification. I am aware that we have the Land Development Fund which falls under the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resource and Environmental Protection, but this Government is asking the councils to start applying for this money. I think this is the right time for the hon. Minister to start liaising with his colleague in the other ministry. They should know which areas need to be electrified. It is high time the hon. Minister did this.

Mr Chairperson, I am a man of very few words.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Your words were, indeed, few.

Laughter

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kampyongo): Mr Chairperson, I would like to start by thanking all the hon. Members who have supported our Vote, both those who have debated and those who supported it silently. I will, particularly, thank Hon. Victoria Kalima, Hon. Miyutu, Hon. Mbulakulima, Hon. Mbulakulima, who is, indeed, my uncle, Hon. Belemu, Hon. Mooya and my elder brother, Hon. Muchima. 

Mr Chairperson, in reacting to some of the concerns raised by my colleagues, I will start with what Hon. Kalima said. One of the issues that she spoke about was the capacity in the councils with regard to the implementation of programmes and projects. I will tackle this issue in detail as we look at the Local Government Service Commission. 

However, Sir, as regards disbursements and disregarding laid down guidelines of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to our councillors to adhere to the laid down guidelines. I was so shocked to hear the hon. Member of Parliament say that even people who are not part of the council implement some of the projects that are funded under the CDF. That should not be the case. If that is happening, I assure the hon. Member that I will follow up that matter and those who will be found wanting will certainly have no choice, but to face the law. The projects must be approved at all stages by the CDF committees and a full council before they are funded and the ministry will equally have to consent. So, I also want to appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament to be active because the CDF is meant for projects in their constituencies. They are in contact with the people they represent so people who have no mandate such as theirs must not be in charge of the fund.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the cost of the boreholes, I discussed this matter in detail in this House. I will invite my technocrats at the ministry to explain to hon. Members of Parliament the various aspects that we look at when we are drilling boreholes such as the specifications, type of casings, kind of compaction and equipment that is used on a particular borehole and distances that are covered by the contractors that drill these boreholes. So, going forward, I will provide this platform and my technical staff will share with the hon. Members of Parliament the process of drilling boreholes so that we can put this matter to rest.

Sir, Hon. Kalima talked about the issue of markets. Indeed, we cannot emphasise the importance of markets because most of our people in informal employment operate from there and that is where we all buy certain requirements such as food. I have paid particular attention to the markets and, as she rightly pointed out, I have started visiting some of them to understand the challenges that our marketeers face as they carry out their day to day activities. She singled out the issue of Luburma Market which is on lease. I want to assure her that I am equally concerned because I inspected the infrastructure and looking at the period of the lease, it raises a lot of questions. 

Mr Chairperson, there is a clause which is more or less an exit option in the lease agreement and it gives us an opportunity to review this lease agreement after ten years. Ten years has elapsed. So, it is high time we revisited the decision so that a decision should be made in the interest of Zambian citizens. The whole essence of the public-private partnerships (PPPs) is to have mutual benefits and so they should not be lopsided. However, I have a strong feeling that the lease agreement was not mutual. It seems to be one-sided and the developers benefit more. This is the reason I was shocked to find the kind of impunity some of those developers have been exhibiting. Those trading in public places should not be charged rentals in dollars because what this entails is that they are put under pressure to meet the fluctuation of the kwacha against the dollar by increasing the prices of their items. At the end of the day, they lose business. I am addressing that matter and I issued a directive to all the developers to stop charging those tenants in dollars. I wrote to them and expect them to adhere to that directive. So, I want to assure our marketeers that we are a pro-poor Government and will address this matter.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Miyutu talked about my ministry’s impact on the rural areas. I have always said that, as hon. Members of Parliament, we should learn to appreciate the Government’s efforts. It accepts criticism where it is fairly due. The hon. Member of Parliament cannot honestly say that there is no development that has taken place in Kalabo because that is not correct. One of the most expensive procured projects in the road sector in this country is the construction of the Mongu/Kalabo Road that leads to his district. The amount of money that has been spent on constructing that road is equal to the amount of money that was spent on all the roads that were worked on combined.

Mr Mushanga: Hear, hear! Tell him.

Mr Kampyongo: So, Zambians must appreciate and ask for more to be done. The Government is working on some of the township roads in Kalabo. For example, works on the Kalabo/Sikongo Road are on-going.

Mr Ndalamei: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, the Zambia National Service (ZNS) has also moved on site and is working on the Kalongola/Kalabo Road. Hon. Member for Sikongo, you should be visiting your constituency.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, the Government has completed most of the road projects in urban and rural areas for the first time in the history of this country. In Lusaka, for example, some roads were designed for 200 vehicles. It is a pity Hon. Lubinda is not here. He would have confirmed that it was difficult for people to drive from Woodlands into the Central Business District (CBD) because there were only two lanes on Chilimbulu Road and most township roads had potholes. However, they are now marvellous and people are appreciating the Government’s efforts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Hon. Miyutu should also learn to appreciate what is being done. I also want to assure him that boreholes will be drilled in his area. Our co-operating partners have come up with methodologies of drilling boreholes in areas such as his. So, the Government is not segregating and is ensuring that development is taken to all corners of the country. He talked about the CDF and I would like to commend him for the project that he undertook using the CDF. He spearheaded the construction of a market in Kalabo and that is a commendable project. However, he said that the CDF has been static and that is not correct. Hon. Mooya said that the CDF was K30,000 when it was first introduced but, last year, the hon. Minister of Finance adjusted it to K1.4 million. 

Mr Chairperson, we also have to be realistic that this money can only be given according to the resource envelope and as and when it is available. So, we are quite content with what is available. If hon. Members are applying the CDF like Hon. Miyutu, certainly, this fund will continue to have an impact on the lives of our people.

Sir, my uncle, Hon. Mbulakulima, brought out a very pertinent issue on the fire brigade. I want to assure my hon. uncle that the ministry has not been sitting idly. It is equally concerned about the number of inferno-related accidents and the loss of properties such as houses that our people have lost to fires. It is, indeed, a cause for worry.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, my ministry is procuring about forty-two fire engines. The procurement process has reached an advanced stage and it will see us equipping our fire stations because our firefighters have been operating under difficult circumstances, that I must concede. The population of this country has grown and the areas are now vast. Therefore, we cannot afford to have one or two fire tenders serving a city like Lusaka. This is a big challenge, but we are committed to ensuring that it is addressed.

Sir, we are also in the process of refurbishing our firefighting training facility in Kabwe so that our firemen and women can adequately be trained in the modern techniques of fighting fires. We will also make sure that we give them the required uniforms which they will need to wear as they carry out their noble duty. We appreciate the co-operating partners who are already on board and shall continue to co-operate with them to ensure that our people are offered the required services.

Mr Chairperson, one hon. Member talked about solid waste management. This is one area to which the Government is paying so much attention. It is considering a number of options such as landfills and also engaging co-operating partners to see how modern ways of dealing with the solid waste can be employed. There are options such as using solid waste to generate energy. So, these are some of the issues that are being considered.

Mr Chairperson, another hon. Member talked about street vending by our street entrepreneurs. I am equally concerned about this, as Minister of Local Government and Housing. Every time I drive along Lumumba Road, I wonder what would happen if a truck loaded with cargo landed on those people who trade on that road. It would be a disaster. So, we are equally concerned about our people. With the onset of the rainy season, we are worried about how they will trade and where they will trade from, especially when it is heavily pouring.

Mr Chairperson, the people on the streets are trying to survive and earn a living. Therefore, as a ministry, we are trying to identify areas where we can put up decent shelter and sanitary facilities so that we can start moving them in phases. They are willing and co-operative with the local authorities to move from the streets so that they can have decent places to trade from. I want to assure them that, as their Government, we are doing something about giving them decent trading places. However, for now, we cannot just chase them from the streets like dogs because they are human beings who are going out there to earn a living and to put food on the table.

Sir, I agree with the hon. Members that some incomplete buildings are becoming a security risk. We are trying to see who we can engage, but the House must appreciate that some of the cases are before the courts of law and there is nothing much that we can do about that, as a ministry.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Belemu talked about decentralisation. I want to inform him that decentralisation has reached an advance stage and, at the moment, Cabinet Office has taken it up. He has also referred to the meeting which has drawn district commissioners and principal officers from the councils. This has been facilitated to harmonise the local authorities and the Central Government. The hon. Member may appreciate that there has been a bit of tension building up between the local authorities and the Central Government over the way we will decentralise. So, we are trying to harmonise that conflict in order to smoothen the implementation process. I will address the other issues when the Local Government Service Commission comes under consideration because one hon. Member talked about the issues of our officers and other things.

Mr Chairperson, I share senior engineer’s, Hon. Mooya, sentiments on housing. I want to assure him that I just inaugurated the National Housing Authority (NHA) Board which was not in place for the past three years. Our directive to the board is for it to ensure that it reviews the Housing Policy so that we can start dealing with the housing deficit in a more co-ordinated manner. This is in line with what His Excellency the President said in his address.

Sir, I had indicated on the Floor of this House that we shall review the CDF guidelines so that we can see how the CDF’s disbursement can be smoothened. Hon. Members should take advantage, when they are requested to make comments to submit their suggestions. Hon. Members should be assured that the CDF for 2015 will be given to them. Therefore, the issue of returns and the period that the returns should be submitted can equally be tabled at the time we shall be reviewing the CDF guidelines.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Muchima passionately spoke about certain issues that I will deal with when I come to discuss the next Vote.

Sir, I totally agree with Hon. Muchima on the issue of plots. We have had challenges in the issue of land administration. My ministry performs a delegated function in terms of land administration on behalf of the Ministry of Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, but what we have learnt, of late, and I want to agree with Hon. Belemu, is that all hon. Members are all councillors and I want all of us to get involved. I keep on saying that as councillors, we must take the responsibility and also sit in the full council meetings because we are part of the councils. I will come to the issue of the meetings coinciding with the sittings of Parliament, but we need to help our colleagues, the councillors.

Sir, sometimes, we all know who is involved in the land saga in our various councils, but we just want to avoid facing these issues head-on. Even the rural councils have not been spared when it comes to the issue of land illegalities. The House will recall that we had to come up with a task force to deal with illegal land allocations and acquisitions. The three ministries, Lands, Natural Resources and Environmental Protection, Local Government and Housing, and Home Affairs have come up with a team. However, we need help from my hon. Colleagues because this requires concerted efforts to deal with. This problem has been with us for a long time and we need to deal with it once and for all. If we do not deal with it now, I do not know what will happen in future. People have no respect for laid down procedures, but just want to get onto pieces of land and do as they please.

Sir, Hon. Muchima, again, talked about the housing units in his district and Mafinga. I wish to remind him that our late President, Mr Micheal Chilufya Sata, in his quest to ensure that the Decentralisation Policy was implemented, created some districts. When those districts were being created, they attracted criticism. How else can you decentralise and seek to take functions of governance closer to the people in the absence of these districts? Now that the new districts are coming up and infrastructure is being put up in those districts, people are coming to the Government and crying for more districts to be created. 
     
Mr Chairperson, I want to assure the House that as a Government of the people, which is still coming back to power after 2016, we are committed to taking development to all districts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Kampyongo: Sir, the hon. Opposition Members should make no mistake because the work that we, as a Government, are doing will speak for itself. As a Government, we will ensure that we attend to the challenges that have been highlighted because you equally need housing units to accommodate officers who will work in the districts.

Mr Chairperson, all in all, I want to thank the hon. Members for supporting my ministry’s Vote and the Budget allocation too.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 20/04 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Physical Planning and Housing Department K5,187,865).

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5055, Activity 002 – Integrated Development Plans – K400,000, Activity 008 – Monitoring Implementation of Development Plans K300,000, Activity 010 – Support to Provincial Planning Offices – K200,000, and Activity 013 – Local Area Planning – K150,000. I have noticed a steady decrease in the allocation to all those activities. Why is that so?

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): Mr Chairperson, Programme 5055, Activity 002 – Integrated Development Plans – K400,000, Activity 008 – Monitoring Implementation of Development Plans K300,000, Activity 010 – Support to Provincial Planning Offices – K200,000 and Activity 013 – Local Area Planning – K150,000, have all had their allocations reduced because in 2015, the Government worked on most of the Integrated Development Plans (IDPs).

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 20/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20/06 – (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Housing and Infrastructure Development K337,836,051).

Mr Miyanda (Mapatizya): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 02, Programme 5011, Activity 330 – Rehabilitation Six Towns –Phase II – K12,390,047. The allocation in the 2015 Budget was K19,476,00. Which are these towns that will benefit from Phase II of this programme? I would also like to have clarification on Unit 04, Programme 5011, Activity 353 – Construction of Houses for the Poor (Pphz) – K3,000,000. There was no allocation in the 2015 Budget. Since this country has poor people everywhere, how many houses will be constructed and where will they be located?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Unit 02, Programme 5011, Activity 330 – Rehabilitation Six Towns –Phase II – K12,390,047, will be undertaken after the work plan is in place. Unit 04, Programme 5011, Activity 353 – Construction of Houses for the Poor (Pphz) – K3,000,000 is meant to cater for sixty housing units and this House will be informed when the plan is in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 06, Programme 5003, Activity 159 − Technical Staff Training – K340,000, Activity 160 – International Conferences and Seminars – K718,650, Activity 161 – Consultative Meetings – K220,004, Activity 162 – Financial Management and Consultations – 239,580 and Activity 163 – Professional Conferences – K235,000. These activities were not allocated any funds in the 2015 Budget. This year, we are supposed to implement austerity measures, yet there are big amounts being allocated to these activities when the allocation should be reduced. May I know why that is the case.

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5003, Activity 159 -Technical Staff Training – K340,000, Activity 160 – International Conferences and Seminars – K718,650, Activity 161 – Consultative Meetings – K220,00, Activity 162 – Financial Management and Consultations – 239,580, Activity 163 – Professional Conferences – K235,000 have seen an increase in the allocation because of decentralisation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5056, Activity 021 – Refuse Collection in Local Authorities, Make Zambia Clean and Healthy – K1,601,843. The allocation to this activity is ‘dencreasing’, but the refuse, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Refuse.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We are using the Queen’s language.

Mr Mutelo: Sir, I am in Loziland, so, according to you its refuse. Why do we have that ‘dencrease’ when the refuse is increasing?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, under Programme 5056, Activity 021 – Refuse Collection in Local Authorities, Make Zambia Clean and Healthy – K1,601,843, the ‘dencrease’ is because, ...

Ms Namugala: Nicholas, naiwe wabwekeshapo ati ‘dencrease’?

Mr N. Banda: ... this Programme has been moved to the public-private partnership (PPP) initiative. Donors have come on board to support it, hence the decrease.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 20/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 20/07 (Loans and Investments – Local Government and Housing – Government Valuation Department – K4,895,100).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, this entire Head is new. It had no allocation in the 2015 Budget. Where has it been all this time that it should be allocated funds in next year’s Budget?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, that observation by the hon. Member is correct. Previously, we never used to budget for these programmes under this Vote because the local authorities were responsible for these programmes. However, due to the difficulties that the local authorities are facing in raising funds, we have decided to budget for these activities. This will help the local authorities not to lag behind in carrying out valuation roles. So, it is a new activity.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 20/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 20/09, 29/01, 29/03 and Vote 29/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 29/05 – (Ministry of Local Government and Housing – Local Government Administration Department – K952,799,134).

Mr Mutelo: Sir, why is there no allocation in 2016 for Programme 5061, Activity 006 – Performance Assessment of Councils − Nil?

Mr N. Banda: Mr Chairperson, Programme 5061, Activity 006 – Performance Assessment of Councils − Nil has been realigned to Programme 5027, Activity 007 – Monitoring of Local Authorities Service Delivery – K100,080 and Programme 5008, Activity 011 – Statutory Audits and Inspections – K600,005. This is meant to avoid duplication of activities. 

I thank you, Sir.

Votes 29/05, 29/06 and 29/07ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 25 – (Local Government Service Commission – K7,431,416).

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to deliver the policy statement in support of the 2016 Budget for the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). The statement is in two parts. Part I looks at the performance of the commission in 2015, while Part II outlines the policy focus for 2016.

Performance of the LGSC in 2015

Mr Chairperson, in spite of the economic challenges encountered in the 2015 Budget allocation to the LGSC, the institution has recorded considerable progress in the priority areas set for 2015. The commission undertook technical support visits to seven provinces, namely Central, the Eastern, Lusaka, Luapula, the Northern, North-Western and Southern provinces to process outstanding human resource cases and interact with the stakeholders such as the provincial, district and civic leadership, council employees and local union leaders. Through the technical support services, the commission has dealt with 2,735 human resource cases for the local authorities in 2015 to-date.

Mr Chairperson, in an endeavour to ensure equitable distribution of skilled and qualified staff even to the most unattractive local authorities, especially in rural and remote areas, the commission has made various appointments and transfers of officers. The commission has developed various policies and manuals to provide guidance in areas of recruitment, induction, training, discipline and performance management to facilitate merit-based, fair and open human resource practices and institutionalisation of rules and procedures in councils. Further, the commission has developed a strategic plan which shall be launched before the end of this year.

Policy Focus for 2016

Mr Chairperson, I fully support the policy pronouncement contained in the 2016 Budget Address by the hon. Minister of Finance. Despite a reduction in the budget allocation to the commission from K7,750,080, in 2015, to K7,431,416, in 2016, the commission intends to prioritise its operations and focus on various key activities in 2016.

Mr Chairperson, in line with the human resource reforms for the Public Service, the LGSC will continue to play the role of oversight, regulatory, supervisory and appellate body and shall focus more on strategic rather than transactional roles in order to improve service delivery in councils. The commission will restructure the secretariat to make it more efficient and effective in providing support to the operations of the local authorities.

Mr Chairperson, the commission will continue to offer technical support to visits to the local authorities in order to enable them to effectively deliver services to the communities and foster national development at local level.
 
Mr Chairperson, 2016 will be crucial as we simultaneously implement the tripartite elections and the Decentralisation Policy. In this regard, the commission will focus on ensuring that the local authorities have the capacity to effectively execute their electoral responsibilities as well as deliver services in the context of decentralisation. 

Sir, therefore, the commission will conduct a transparent, fair and professional staff audit of principal and chief officers of all the councils. This will ensure that officers have the necessary capacity in terms of qualifications, skills, competences, experience and general suitability to hold office and drive the process of devolution to the expectations of the Central Government.

Sir, the commission will facilitate the delegation of human resource functions to the councils in line with the Revised National Decentralisation Policy of 2013 to enable the councils to deal with transactional aspects of human resource management while the commission focuses on strategic issues. 

Mr Chairperson, the commission will ensure finalisation of the LGSC Regulations and the terms and conditions of service for the local authorities. The commission will also ensure that implementation of standardised human resource policies and procedure manuals within the local authorities is realised. The commission will implement a Human Resource Management Information System and computerise records management to facilitate timely decision-making. 

Sir, the commission will further develop and implement a monitoring and evaluations instrument to effectively monitor the operations of the councils with respect to human resource management as the bedrock to improve service delivery.

Mr Chairperson, in view of the inadequate resources, the commission will continue to engage relevant stakeholders through mechanisms such as the PPP to mobilise the resources for effective delivery of services. 

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, implore hon. Members of this august House to support the Local Government Service Commission’s 2016 Budget to enable the commission to address the human resource challenges in the council for socio-economic development.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate this important Vote, which I support. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to start by saying that I am one of those Members of Parliament who have always supported the establishment of the Local Government Service Commission (LGSC). In my understanding, the function of the LGSC, in the context of implementing the Decentralisation Policy, is premised on the need to help local authorities to have a staff cadre that is qualified. Also, the LGSC is there to ensure that functions that will be decentralised to the district level have competent people to execute them by way of positive interface, especially with the creation of new districts which may, obviously, fail to attract new staff.

Mr Chairperson, I stand on the firm belief that the establishment of the LGSC is a good idea. I still believe that those of my colleagues, especially on your left, who have always argued that, in fact, the establishment of the LGSC is in contrast to the Decentralisation Policy are wrong. 

My hope, Mr Chairperson, is that the LGSC can be true to the objective of its establishment and function to ensure that it helps local authorities to come up with qualified staff that can actually deliver services according to the functions that would have been decentralised to the local level. 

Mr Chairperson, my regret, however, is that I am now at a point where I am beginning to question whether my colleagues on your left, who have always debated against the establishment of the LGSC, are right and I am wrong. I feel I am wrong to the extent that in real a sense, what I have seen happen in the commission is exactly what my colleagues on your left have always said about this institution, which is that those who come into power begin to abuse power to settle scores in the political arena. 

Mr Livune: Yes!

Mrs Masebo: It is really sad that even as I debate this Motion, if we are not careful, even a good policy like the one we are discussing may end up looking like a bad one. Come next year, if the United Party for National Development (UPND) will form Government, I see it …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … reversing the establishment of the LGSC and that will make me very sad. 

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, it will make me sad because I believe that the establishment of the LGSC is meant to be for the good of the local government system. However, at the rate things are going now, what you hear on the ground is everybody campaigning for the abolition of the LGSC. Why is that so? Calls for the abolition of the commission are because of the manner in which the commission discharges its functions.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I hope the hon. Minister can take this issue very seriously and advise the LGSC to act professionally in its functions. I know that, sometimes, it may not be the commission. The problem may be the Ministry of Local Government and Housing itself. So, I would like to also address the ministry and say that let us not destroy what is good for our country.

Mr Chairperson, my understanding is that the LGSC, together with the ministry, can transfer people for the good of the councils. From my experience, we have had officers who have been contracted at my council, in Chongwe, and within two years, they have done a good job for us and we have been happy. However, without even consulting the council, the officers are moved. They are moved not because they are not good, but because of political reasons. 

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Please, people should not say that I am concluding. I have been in this game longer than many of my colleagues and I know …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … when people are doing a job innocently and for the good of the system and when they are using their powers to show that they can cause transfers.

 This is the exact reason the people on your left, Sir, were against the establishment of the LGSC. However, I insisted that it was a good idea. They told me that, “You are defending it because you are a good hon. Minister, but there will come different people and it will change.” This is exactly what has happened. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I hear this complaint about the LGSC everywhere I go. I did not see what caused the complaint because the need to complain about this aspect never arose under my council. However, when it came right in my face, I got shocked that there were even officers employed without reference. 

Mr Chairperson, the LGSC was not meant to be the beginning and the end. The councils still have a role to play. The intention for the establishment of the commission was for it to work with the ministry for the good of the administration of councils. The principle here is that every action that the commission takes must be for the good of the affected councils and not for their destruction.  

Mr Chairperson, I have heard many hon. Members of Parliament complain about what I am talking about.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: If many hon. Members have complained and feel that the actions by the LGSC are being carried out in bad faith, then, something is wrong. Therefore, if the people who are complaining are given the power to make decisions tomorrow, they will use their positions to reverse the decision of the establishment of the LGSC which may not even help us in the long run. So, my point is that we need to get back to the reasons the commission was established by ensuring that all the actions that we take are for the good of the administration of the local government system.

Mr Chairperson, a reminder to the LGSC is that as it decides to transfer officers, it must also take into account the value that these officers will add to where they are being transferred. For example, of what value is an officer who is not good for council A to council B? Why shift the problem to from council A to council B? It is even better to take appropriate action against this officer than make a transfer because you are merely transferring problems. This is my view.

Mr Chairperson, it has been said that the LGSC will redefine qualifications and carry out a staff audit. Taking into account that the commission has been in existence for more than two years now, I would have thought that by now, the first step should have been to audit the establishment of all the councils that are in existence. That way, it would have ascertained the establishment for each constituency. For example, it would have said the establishment for Chongwe District Council is supposed to have been this much, but now it only has these officers. However, the manner in which this matter is being dealt with is haphazard. 

Mr Chairperson, there is no agreed upon framework. No audit has been carried out to establish what is happening in Chongwe, Kalomo or Mansa and there is no spreadsheet to, for example, guide on how to employ. The commission should say, “Okay, if we are going to start moving or if we are going to start employing, this is the council at which we should employ and this is what we should do.” It is like there is nothing like that. It is just haphazard. When you look at the allocation to the LGSC, this year, compared to last year’s, and look at the progress it has made, it was only able to visit one council. Then, you wonder when it will complete its tour throughout this country to ensure that the local government system improves. 

Mr Chairperson, for as long as we have problems of staffing levels in the local government structure, amid the prevailing problems of resources and management, I do not see any improvement in the delivery of service in the local government. For as long as the local government is not functioning, there is no way that the Central Government can function. The functioning of the Central Government is dependent on the functioning of the local government. At the moment, apart from the CDF in the councils, there is very little that is happening at most of them. Now, you have seen that even the issue of the CDF has become a problem. Some of us only got our money two weeks ago. So, it means that for the last two years, apart from a few donor-funded projects here and there, there is very little that is happening in our districts, worse still that officers keep changing every new term.

Mr Chairperson, all I am saying is that I want to support the LGSC, but in the manner we are proceeding, I can tell you that come next year, it will not be there.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Please, let us change our attitude so that even if we have the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) coming back ... 

Mr Muntanga: No!

Mrs Masebo: Oh, sorry.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Even if we have any party coming back, that party must carry on with the LGSC because it is good for the country.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Members for silently, but unanimously supporting this very important Budget Estimate. 

Mr Speaker, I also want to thank Hon. Masebo for the submissions that she has made. In response to some of the submissions, I would like to assure the hon. Members that this Patriotic Front (PF) Government is here to stay for another term.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: The campaign we are going into next year will be the easiest because what we expect our colleagues to do is to go to the people and tell them – I am giving free consultation – that where we are building roads, maybe, they will add on railway lines. This is the kind of campaign we would like to see next year. People are able to see what is happening already and Hon. Jack Mwiimbu is one of those people who have appreciated this so much because people are eulogising him for taking migwagwa. This means that he has taken roads which were not there in Monze Central …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, wind up debate.

Laughter

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament, who debated, that the role of the LGSC is very critical. I do not know about the previous commissions, but I want to speak for the current one. The composition of the current LGSC has drawn membership from various fields and I do not doubt its competence. 

Interruptions

Mr Kampyongo: Thus far, I am comfortable. You may choose to argue. Sir, I need your protection because some of the …

The Deputy Chairperson: May you debate through the Chairperson.

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, this commission has gone further and with my guidance, I have said that this staff audit must be done in the most transparent manner. The commission has engaged the Public Service Division to ensure that as it looks at the audit attributes, which I mentioned in my speech, in the officers that are currently serving in a manner that will be accepted by everyone.

Mr Chairperson, the issue of transferring principle officers and those in senior management is something that has been a source of concern even to me. When a person is employed in the Public Service, he should be ready to serve anywhere in the country. The commissioners in the LGSC are performing their duties independently. I do not interfere in their work. Probably, other hon. Ministers in the past used to interfere in the decisions of the commission to transfer certain officers. Some hon. Members think that I am currently doing the same thing. I want to assure the hon. Members and the public that it is not in my interest to interfere with the work of the LGSC. I will allow the commissioners to perform their functions without interference.

Mr Chairperson, the transfers are generating a lot of debate. I think that familiarity breeds contempt. Some people feel that they are deeply rooted in certain municipalities and that they cannot be moved to serve elsewhere. This shows that the commission has a lot of work to do to ensure that it finds out why some officers resist being moved from one council to another. One of the transfers which was cited in the debate was from Chongwe Council. The LGSC will move officers from one council to another as it deems fit. Some positions need to be occupied by individuals with certain qualifications or competencies. The hon. Deputy Minister just came back from Chongwe. He found that a person who is qualified to be a Council Secretary opted to allow an employee of the National Assembly to be the Chairperson of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) Committee, when he knows that is against the guidelines of the CDF. What kind of an officer is that? Council employees are supposed to advise politicians and other people on the correct way of doing things. However, this officer went against the guidelines and the commission decided to discipline this officer. We know who should constitute the CDF Committee. Some politicians come here and talk as though they are holier-than-thou when they are actually allowing irregularities such as this in their constituencies. It is not correct for them to behave like that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I want to emphasise that we must put officers who are firm and qualified in certain positions because they also perform the delegated function of conducting elections. They conduct elections and declare winners of parliamentary elections. Therefore, we want to put people who can perform above board. There was a person who was declared winner of a parliamentary election in 2011, in Chongwe, but he never saw the light of this Chamber. He was never sworn in as Member of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I do not know where that hon. Member of Parliament is to date.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Minister, wind up your debate on the LGSC, full stop. 

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, I am very confident that the composition of the current LGSC is above board.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kampyongo: Mr Chairperson, those who doubt this should see how the commissioners are performing and gauge them. These commissioners will not be changed any time soon. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Members for their support.

I thank you, Sir. 

VOTE 25/01 − (Local Government Service Commission – Headquarters - K7,431,416).

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

May I have order on my left. I can see you. Your voice is so distinct that I would spot you even if my eyes were closed. Please, consult less loudly and allow the proceedings to proceed unhampered. 

Hon. Mutelo, you may continue. 

Mr Mutelo: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3002, Activity 062 – Local Government Association Conference – K50, 000. This year, this activity was allocated K14,200, but the allocation for next year has been increased to K50,000. Why has it increased? 

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Ching’imbu): Mr Chairperson, Programme 3002, Activity 062 – Local Government Association Conference – K50, 000 has increased due to an increased number of activities. 

I thank you, Sir. 

Vote 25/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 11− (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – (K1, 224,501,726), VOTE 15 −  (Ministry of Home Affairs – K412, 379,648) and VOTE 16 – (Drug Enforcement Commission – K66,389,524).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mwila): Mr Chairperson, ...

Ms Kapata and Mrs Masebo were exchanging words.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I have noticed two hon. ladies debating across the Floor. Desist from doing that. If you want to consult each other, please, move out of the Chamber. It is not honourable for hon. ladies to consult in that manner.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful to you for giving me this opportunity to present ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let me have order on my left. 

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, we need order from the United Party for National Development (UPND). 

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I need order from both the left and the right. With that guidance, you can deliver your policy statement, hon. Minister. 

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful to you for giving me this opportunity to present my ministry’s budget policy statement for 2016. I am aware that the budget is an important tool that helps to prioritise and allocate financial resources to programmes, projects and activities in the most efficient manner, given that resources are always scarce. This statement will give a synopsis of the achievements of the ministry, through the implementation of the 2015 Budget. I shall also endeavour to highlight the challenges faced by my ministry, and bring out the salient policy measures for the 2016 Budget. 

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Home Affairs is mandated to provide and promote quality internal security services in order to create a safe, secure and peaceful environment for sustainable socio-economic development. My ministry seeks to uphold professionalism, integrity, accountability, patriotism, transparency, confidentiality, excellence and teamwork. This mandate is discharged through various departments and specialised agencies, namely the  Zambia Police Force, Zambia Prisons Service, Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), Immigration, Department, the National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, …

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: … National Archives, Office of the Registrar of Societies, Research, Planning and Information, Commission for Refugees and the Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA). 

In terms of the budget structure, the ministry has three expenditure Heads, namely: Head 11 –Zambia Police, Head 15 – Ministry of Home Affairs and Head 16 – Drug Enforcement Commission. 

Mr Chairperson, allow me to shed some light on the achievements of the ministry during the 2015 implementation period. The ministry has continued to improve its operations by increasing staffing levels, modernising its operations and improving infrastructure to enhance security in the country. During the year under review, 1,500 police officers were recruited and are still undergoing training at Lilayi Training School and Kamfinsa Paramilitary. When trained, these recruits would increase police presence in our communities. 

Sir, in modernising the police techniques, the ministry has procured twenty-one motor vehicles and 138 motorbikes, thirty-four of which have already been delivered. My Government has prioritised the modernisation of the security institutions under my ministry. To this effect, high-tech forensic equipment has been procured to enhance criminal investigations and prosecutions. Further, two motor vehicles have also been acquired to ease the movement of officers. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has been decisive in dealing with drug trafficking, money laundering and other vices. In this regard, a total of 3,782 persons were arrested by the DEC and other security wings by the end of September, 2015. We also seized K14,500, US$6,000 and £11,300 counterfeit notes, while fifty-one people were arrested in connection with money laundering. The commission has conducted sensitisation programmes to 246,568 persons on the dangers of drug trafficking. The commission also provides counselling to drug-dependent persons. My ministry has scaled up investigations and prosecutions into moneylaundering crimes. As a result, it has decentralised the Anti-Money Laundering Unit to provinces. 

Mr Chairperson, to reduce illegal migration and contribute to internal security, we rolled out the Zambia Immigration Management Information System to five sites and launched the e-Visa at some border post. The House may also wish to note that the ministry, through the Office of the Commission for Refugees, is currently undertaking the local integration of former Angolan and Rwandese refugees. In this regard, new settlement schemes have been earmarked for the Western and North-Western provinces. The resettlement programmes will not only benefit former Angolan and Rwandese refugees, but also host communities. 

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issuance of national registration cards (NRCS), my ministry launched the mobile registration exercise in three phases in April, this year. Phase I consists the issuance of NRCs to Zambians living in Muchinga, the Northern and Central provinces. This exercise was completed with the registration of 409,638 persons against the target of 245,000. Phase II and Phase III are still being conducted in Lusaka, the Southern, Eastern, Western, Copperbelt, the North-Western and Luapula provinces. 

Sir, my ministry has also computerised the operations of the Office of the Registrar of Societies. The computerisation process is expected to culminate into improved service delivery, through efficient registration and monitoring of societies in the country.  

Mr Chairperson, this House is aware of the rising number of incarcerated persons in this country. This has posed a challenge to my ministry in meeting the cost of food rations for inmates. Therefore, the ministry has invested K15.3 million from the 2015 Budget, to expand prisons’ farms. To this end, various farming equipment has been procured to enhance prisons service capacity to feed inmates. 

In the area of infrastructure development, Sir, my ministry completed the construction of Muchinga Division Headquarters while Division Headquarters in the Southern and Western provinces are still under construction.

With regard to police stations, the construction of Matumbo Police Station has been completed. Similarly, Kalabo and Luwingu prisons were completed and commissioned this year. In addition, offices for the Department of National Registration have been constructed in Luangwa, Kitwe Ndola, Mufulira and Mwinilunga districts. Similarly, a record centre and repository has been completed in Mansa while rehabilitation works on the Mongu Records Centre were also completed. The ministry has also launched the construction of 2,350 housing units for security wings under my ministry in order to address the critical shortage of housing.  

Mr Chairperson, despite the achievements scored, the year was not without challenges. Some difficulties encountered included continued shortage of officers, deteriorating offices and a lack of staff accommodation, coupled with the lack of modern equipment for crime prevention, detection and investigations. 

Further, the emergence of new forms of crime, such as human trafficking, cyber crime and terrorism, presented more operational challenges to the ministry. The globalisation and technical achievements have also brought about new crimes by cyber and criminal syndicates. To address these problems, we have enhanced training of our officers so that they can stay a step ahead of the criminal elements. 

Mr Chairperson, there was also a high number of incidents of illegal immigration. This, among other reasons, contributed to continued congestion in the existing detention and prison facilities in the country. 

Mr Chairperson, in view of the challenges highlighted above, my ministry wishes to focus on the following strategic issues for 2016:

(a)    enhance operationalisation of specialised agencies and systems to deal with emerging crimes such as terrorism and cyber crime;

(b)    augments on its current progress to continue strengthening forensic services by acquiring modern equipment such as the cadip system and radiation detectors, among others;

(c)    the fight against drug trafficking and money laundering will remain one of my ministry’s top priorities. My ministry plans to strengthen and decentralise the operations of the DEC to district level to enable it to effectively execute its mandate; and 

(d)    ensure that the Prisons Department becomes self-sustaining in feeding inmates in the country. To maintain internal security, my ministry will enhance its operations in crime prevention maintenance, public order to traffic management. Further, the ministry will step up efforts to ensure that alternatives means of sentencing are explored for minor offences, including the introduction of admission of guilt fines for illegal immigrants in order to mitigate congestion in prisons.

Sir, to fulfil the mandate of my ministry, a budget allocation of K1.7 billion has been provided for in 2016. In comparison to 2015, the budget for my ministry, in 2016, has been reduced …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours. 

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, to fulfil the mandate of my ministry, a budget allocation of K1,703,270,898 has been provided for in 2016. In comparison to the 2015 Budget for my ministry, the budget for 2016 has been reduced by K152,533,310. This is in line with the need to cut out waste and live within our means. 

Sir, of the 2016 provision of K1,703,270,898, Head 11 Zambia Police, has been allocated K1,224,501,726 while departments under Head 15 have been allocated K412,379,648. The DEC−Head 16 has been allocated K66,389,524. With these resources, my ministry shall ensure that Zambia remains an oasis of peace because it is the foundation of any sustainable development. 

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: In that regard, we shall scale up offensive measures against criminal elements. The allocations made to the fight against crime should help us ensure that our country continues to enjoy peace and security that we are well-known for in the region and beyond.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Chairperson, I appreciate youR allowing me to debate the Votes for the Ministry of Home Affairs, Zambia Police Force and the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC). In my debate, I will focus on the Zambia Police Force ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: ... and the National Registration Department.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: As I interrogate the policy statement that has been made by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I would like to refer to Article 103(3) of the Constitution of Zambia, which states:

“The Zambia Police Force shall be nationalistic, patriotic, professional, disciplined, competent and productive, and its members shall be citizens of Zambia and of good character.”

The thrust of my debate will be anchored on this very provision of the law.

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to express my deepest disappointment pertaining to the conduct of certain individual officers in the Zambia Police Force.

Hon. Opposition Members: Katanga!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the officers I am referring to are very unprofessional, not disciplined, unpatriotic and non-nationalistic in nature.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: These officers in the Zambia Police Force, who are supposed to protect citizens and assure the nation that they have leadership in the Zambia Police Force, have failed us. It is no wonder that the police force, as it is now, has been abused by party cadres. Police officers fear party cadres. We have seen situations where police officers have been threatened with dismissals and transfers, which have been actualised. Policemen and women have nowhere to complain to because senior officers to whom they should report are very unprofessional and not disciplined.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, I would like to call upon the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that officers under his jurisdiction follow the provisions of the law. Policemen and women must be professional and ensure that they follow the provisions of the Constitution of Zambia. We have seen situations where policemen and women in uniform discriminate against citizens with impunity. We have also seen instructions from certain senior police officers that are not backed by professionalism, but clothed with the caderism and political affiliation is being carried out.  

Mr Chairperson, I would like you to take judicial notice that Lusaka, the Copperbelt and other areas, are flourishing with Patriotic Front (PF) party regalia. Almost every corner and make shift stand in Lusaka has a PF flag. The PF has branded its vehicles and has put up billboards in a number of towns. I can state, without fear of any contradiction, that there is a very big billboard as you entre Luanshya Town ...

Interruptions 

Mr Mwiimbu: ... inviting the residents of Luanshya to vote for the current President in 2016.

Hon. Government Member: What is that?

Hon. Opposition Members: You have just come.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Those billboards are very visible. There are PF flags just a few metres outside Woodlands Police Station.

Mr Mufalali: Even Central.

Mr Mwiimbu: Even outside Central Police Station. 

Alas, just yesterday, one of the overzealous senior police officers was on radio addressing the nation about how all United Party for National Development (UPND) flags in Lusaka will be removed and that the Zambia Police Force will ensure that the leadership of the UPND appears before it as a result of those flags.

Hon. UPND Members: We will go.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the point I am raising is that if this particular official was being professional, she would have called the PF first. The PF flags are all over and right outside the police stations. Why should the Zambia Police Force discriminate against one political organisation? 

Hon. UPND Members: It is scared.

Mr Mwiimbu: If those overzealous police officers are not caged or advised, they will create problems in this country. They are supposed to be in the forefront of ensuring that there is peace and stability, but they are the agitators of disorder. What law are they enforcing? Where is the professionalism? If they see that there is something wrong or the law is being abrogated, they must ensure that the law is applied fairly. Why are they targeting certain individuals? There is no law which says that you cannot have a flag of your party hoisted anywhere.  

Mr Livune: Tifaka pa police station lelo!

Mr Mwiimbu: We would like the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to respond and tell us whether, tomorrow, the Zambia Police Force will summon the Secretary-General of the PF for branding the PF vehicles with campaign slogans for 2016. He should also tell us if he will summon members of the PF for mounting billboards campaigning for His Excellency President Edgar Lungu in this country. 

Hon. UPND Members: Even in Luanshya.

Mr Mufalali: Kambwili!

Mr Mwiimbu: We want to hear the people of Zambia told that they should not wear any party regalia because there is no difference.

Ms Lubezhi: Correct!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, why should someone be arrested for wearing a party chitenge? What is the difference? Why should we allow overzealous police officers to create anarchy in this country? If they are incompetent, Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, …

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson. 

Hon. UPND Members: Sit down!

Mr Mwiimbu: … they must be told to move out.

Mr Sing’ombe: Masholi.

Mr Chisopa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisopa: Sir, I stand to raise a point of order against the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central, who is struggling to debate …

Interruptions

Mr Chisopa: … knowing very well that in Choma, Batoka and Zimba, there are united Party for National Development (UPND) flags flying all over. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisopa: Mr Chairperson, in Kabwe, just opposite Shoprite, there are youths who wear UPND T−shirts. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House and the nation that the police are stopping the UPND members from wearing their regalia?  

I need your serous ruling, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: You have debated your point of order. Now we know that others also wear their regalia elsewhere. 

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I am aware that there are people in this House who have been fighting for independence of wisdom ...

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwiimbu: ... and have gained that lack of wisdom. 

Mr Chairperson, I have Hon. Katuka here who has been summoned by the police for the same issues I am raising. I am saying that the Zambia Police Force must be professional. I am not saying that there are no UPND materials in Batoka or wherever. That is not the issue I am raising. I am raising an issue of professionalism on the part of the Zambia Police Force. 

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

My ruling was that the hon. Minister had sufficiently debated his point of order. So, you continue with your debate but, please, be civil in your language. Let us not throw tomatoes at each other. 

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that time is running out.

Ms Lubezhi: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: I would like to leave the issue of professionalism on the part of the Zambia Police Force. I have no doubt in my mind that my colleague, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, will deal with this matter so that there is peace and stability in this country. 

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I would like to debate the issue of national registration cards (NRCs). I would like to earnestly appeal to my colleagues, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning, who is also in the House, to consider employing more officials to issue NRCs. I would like to remind this House that some areas in the Western, North-Western and parts of Luapula provinces will be flooded in the next two months. The people will have no access to the Boma to get NRCs. 

Mr Livune: And Kazungula!

Mr Mwiimbu: This includes people in Kazungula. My appeal is to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to liaise with Her Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Development Planning and the hon. Minister of Finance to enhance this process and ensure that we recruit people to assist the officers in charge of the issuance of NRCs. There are teachers in schools and graduates who are not being employed who can assist the officers in this department to enhance the process of ensuring that NRCs are given out. As we debate this particular Vote, let us take note that Article 79 of the Constitution of Zambia is very direct. It insists that if we have to go for a referendum, we have to take into account 50 per cent plus one of eligible voters.

Ms Lubezhi: Correct.

Mr Mwiimbu: If we do not issue NRCs and prospective voters do not register, we will not have a referendum. We will not have a new Bill of Rights for which Zambians have been aspiring, for a long time. You will have to take note that most of the important organisations such as the churches have refused to appear before the Committee of Parliament because of this issue of the Bill of Rights. They know that it is actually important and that it affects the people of Zambia, including the congregants in all these churches. If we fail to register our people and issue them with NRCs, the whole Constitution-making process will fail. Therefore, I am appealing to my colleague, Hon. Mwila, to take this into account.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson. 

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to also add my voice to the debate on the Floor of the House. In doing so, I want to concentrate my debate on the Zambia Police Force.

Sir, when we talk about the lack of professionalism on the part of the police, we need to remind ourselves of the constitutional provision which allows His Excellency the President to appoint the command and office bearers of the Zambia Police Force. When we take that into account, we all agree that there is absolutely no way those who are appointed can truly be professional in their conduct. Therefore, it is important for us to realise that we need to change the Constitution to reduce the powers of the President so as to ensure that we have an institution in place that is not individualised to appoint the command of the Zambia Police Force. In the absence of the reduction of the powers of the President, we will not have the professional police service that we all desire. I am saying this regardless of who occupies the Office of the President whether it is the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), United Party for National Development (UPND), Patriotic Front (PF) or whatever party because it is important for us to reduce the powers of the President.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about politics and law enforcement. It is very clear in our country that the Zambia Police Force has no power over the so-called cadres …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … and officials of the political party that is in power. This is a growing trend, but it has now worsened. In Lusaka, there was an instance where a policeman, who was carrying a gun, was insulted by party cadres in broad daylight.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: I sympathised with this police officer because he was told, in his face, that they were allowed to be on the streets by His Excellency the President and, therefore, there was nothing he could do to them. That is the extent to which law and order has broken down in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, when the hon. Minister of Home Affairs responds to our concerns, I hope that he will assure us that he will stop the abuse of police officers by party cadres.

Sir, I will cite an example to demonstrate the lawlessness in this country. Mandevu Police Station was recently constructed and before it was even opened, I understand a politician allowed cadres to build shops on the border of the blocked wall fencing off the police station. Police officers are supposed to operate from there and ensure that they maintain law and order. How, indeed, do we expect police officers to operate effectively when they are being told by senior people to allow party cadres to build shops on the blocked wall fencing off an actual police station?

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Ms Namugala: How can a policeman or woman rise against such officials?

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has a duty and needs to understand that these political party cadres have the capacity, if not controlled, to create gangs in the City of Lusaka to the extent where they want to ensure that all the people who operate, especially, in the central business district of Lusaka, pay taxes to them. In fact, I understand that some businessmen of Asian origin are being threatened and asked to pay money to party officials in order for them to trade along Freedom Way. This is the lawlessness that is taking place here in Lusaka. The police even know the party officials who are doing such things, but are powerless. Gone are the days when people sought refuge in a policeman or woman. In Zambia, this does not happen anymore.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Shame!

Ms Namugala: If you want to be safe, you have to seek refuge from the big strong PF political cadres. So, you do not run to the police officers, but to the political party cadres. That is the situation in Lusaka.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, firstly, we need to ensure that we do not tolerate that lawlessness. Secondly, we need to ensure that police officers are given the power to do their job. Thirdly, we need to ensure that even though the office bearers are appointed by us, as politicians, they must be professional in their dealings. If they are not, today, those in the Opposition or business people might be harassed and tomorrow, it might be them when they are no longer in power. We suffered when we lost power as the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) and the same party officials who were MMD turned around and became PF overnight. Therefore, it is in our best interest to ensure that law and order is maintained. 

Sir, I also want to talk about the police officers in rural areas like Mafinga. I do not know whether they are tax collectors because they receive money from people without issuing out receipts. When a poor person from Mafinga or, indeed, another rural area commits an offence such as riding a bicycle with worn out tyres, a police officer tells him or her to bring a goat and when he or she fails to bring one, she or he has to pay K100. That is the situation in rural areas where our people are ignorant about their rights. Therefore, they must be sensitised.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has a huge task ahead of him. He has to ensure that the perception that the citizens of this country have of the Zambia Police Force is turned around. This can be done if two things can be achieved and these are, firstly, the hon. Minister should also ensure that they are not insulted by party cadres so that their dignity is restored and they can walk with their heads high. Secondly, the hon. Minister should try to fight the corruption tag that has been affixed to the Public Service and come up with a way of ensuring that members of the public know whether it is the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) officers or police officers who should mount road blocks. If police officers have to be given money, it should not be given to them illegally by putting it in their hats, but legally given to them followed by the issuance of a receipt.

Mr Ndalamei: ATM.

Ms Namugala: Sir, to a great extent, the image of the Government depends on how the public views the police because it is a part of the Government. As things stand today, the Zambia Police Force does not inspire any confidence. I heard the hon. Minister of Home Affairs say that Zambia will remain an oasis of peace. I want to tell the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that there is no peace in Lusaka because the PF cadres have taken charge and the Zambia Police Force is hiding from them. The job of police officers is to rise above party interest and ensure they instill confidence in the citizens of this country. We should be able to run to the police even at night without worrying that they will say, “No, I am sorry you have to talk to the Provincial Youth Chairperson.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, we do not want to see Police Commissioners on television appearing to be chair ladies of the PF. We want to see senior police officers speaking as police officers …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … and not as party office bearers. We want to proudly say we have the Zambia Police Force in place. After all, police officers are paid from the taxes that the Zambian people pay. So, because they are paid by all of us, they should not have any partisan interest.

Sir, with these words, I wish to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this chance and time to add a word to the debate on the Vote which is on the Floor of this House on behalf of the people of Kalabo Central. I will talk a bit on the Zambia Police Force. 

Mr Chairperson, this is Zambia and I pity some people who do not understand what Zambia is. This country is composed of a number of regions, tribes, political parties and human beings.

Mr Mulenga: Question!

 Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

 Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, at the moment, the people of Kalabo are not free and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs knows what I am talking about. If there was a by-election in the same area, this Government would have ferried the police to that area. However, because there is no by-election, those people are languishing.

Sir, when one is given some authority in Zambia, it is used to oppress others. Now, since there is oppression in that area, somebody is claiming that there is peace.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Laughter

 Mr Miyutu: Sir, what is happening in Kalabo is not peace, but oppression. This Government is subjecting the citizens of Zambia to insecurity and ignoring to instill security of all Zambians under the pretext of peace.

 Ms Lubezhi: Correct!

 Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, we not only want unity, but also peace. Peace should go hand-in-hand with unity. The Zambia Police Force must understand that it is not a part and parcel of the Patriotic Front (PF). Some of these things can corrupt the human mind because it easily forgets.

 Sir, just four years ago, there was a Government, which was not the PF, and the police was in existence. Similarly, there will be another Government. What will become of the Zambia Police Force?

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, what will become of the PF Government when there is that change? Again, the Zambia Police Force will change like a chameleon. It is for this reason that police officers should not act like a chameleon.

Sir, the police is a universal body which is supposed to protect everybody regardless of his/her party affiliation. When I am in Lusaka, I do not just move about anyhow because of the insecurity. I fear to move around because the Zambia Police Force has lost the potential to be at the service of everybody.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Miyutu: Sir, it has lost track and has gone underground. I was saying that I pity the police officers because they wear State uniform which can deceive citizens. One would think that by virtue of wearing a uniform, someone is a police officer, not knowing that it is actually just a body.

 Laughter 

Mr Miyutu: Sir, let us be careful in this country because this is our country and our lives are dependent on the police.  

 Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! Sit down.

 Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, ….

 The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

 Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to not disclose that actually, he is scared of moving around in Lusaka because when he was coming from Kalabo, he was told that the vehicles in Lusaka are lions, therefore, he is scared of them? I need your serious ruling.

 Laughter

 The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The serious ruling is that the hon. Member is in order because after all, he owns motor vehicles. So, he cannot be afraid of what he owns.

He may continue.

 Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, my son is Hon. Lufuma. He is my first born son. I have no any other son in this House. 

Mr Lufuma: Hear, hear!

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

 Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the people in Lukona are being terrorised and the Zambia Police Force knows about it, yet it is not doing anything about it. The Inspector-General of the Zambia Police Force knows about this. It is not something that we will hide because she knows that the people in Lukona do not move about freely, yet they are in Zambia. What has she done to improve the security situation in that area? Police officers are happily driving and moving about in Lusaka. I pity them because they do not know what they are there for. No wonder some months ago somewhere when he died on the cross, he said, “Father, forgive them for they do not know what they are doing.”

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Miyutu: So, we will forgive them because they do not know what they are doing.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, you cannot imagine Zambian citizens being dehumanised as the case is in Lukona. They are not free to move at night, not even within Mongu. 

The people working in Lukona cannot even travel to Mongu to get their salaries. This is what is happening and somebody is claiming to not be aware of this situation. The Government is aware. It just does not care about the welfare of the people and also because there is no by-election in the area. All it wants are by-elections. The Government intimidates voters during by-elections. After being intimidated, the electorate vote for Government Members and so the PF thinks it has won. The Government has not won. It has just intimidated the voters.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, I feel very bad to be governed by a Government that does not feel the pain being felt by other people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, the workers in Lukona have written to the District Commissioner (DC) to complain about their situation. They say that if that problem is not addressed, then, they should be allowed to move from Lukona to Mongu. Imagine that. It is not a joke.

Mr Mutelo: They say you are politicking.

Mr Miyutu: When I am here, I do not politick. I have been sent by the people of Kalabo District. So, I cannot come here to waste time by telling lies. I withdraw the word ‘lies’. I cannot come here to waste time and give untruthful statements. 

Sir, there is cattle rustling in the Western Province. Rearing cattle is our source of income.

Ms Lubezhi: Hear, hear!

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, without cattle, all the people in the Western Province will perish.

Ms Lubezhi: Even in Namwala.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we do not grow maize. We grow rice and so, when there is drought, we do not harvest anything. We depend on cattle which is being stolen and the police officers are there watching.

Hon. UPND Members: Masholi.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, why are the police officers just watching?

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Why are they relaxing?

Hon. UPND Member: As if its football.

Mr Miyutu: Is the Government’s silence over the matter an indication that cattle rustling should continue? Cattle being stolen and taken into Angola is denying the people of Zambia their wealth. Poverty is being perpetuated by cattle rustling and the Zambia Police Force is just watching. It is probably not doing anything about this problem because the officers earn salaries unlike the owners of these animals that are being stolen. The police officers should know that they earn those salaries to protect those locals in the villages. They earn those salaries to protect the source of livelihood of the people. Those planes we have in the Western Province, ...

Mr Mutelo: That is our wealth.

Mr Miyutu: ... are a natural phenomenon.

Mr Mutelo: Lyondo lyang’uwa lya silila ng’eke.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, the Government has never constructed any of those things where animals are dipped to prevent diseases. What do you call those things? Dip tanks.

Mr Mutelo: Mebebi.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we have a natural dip tank there. The hon. Minister of Agriculture knows that. That natural dip tank helps to cleanse the animals. These are the animals which should protect us and secure our livelihood. Unfortunately, the police just watches as cattle is stolen. When we report to the Zambia Police Force, it does not react. So, what does the Government want to become of the people of the Western Province?

Mr Mufalali: Zabwino palibe.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, does it make you happy to see people losing their animals just like that? Surely as a Government, that should sadden you.

Mr Mutelo: Bakwetu.

Mr Miyutu: Two days ago, I heard the Permanent Secretary for the Ministry of Agriculture, Dr Shamulenge, talk about taking further steps in an effort to export livestock to Europe. So, why do you not want the Western Province to be part of that? You want the people of the Western Province to live in perpetual poverty. Does the Government want our animals to be depleted  so we can beg for jobs? Do you want us to wash the tyres on your vehicles?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Miyutu: Sir, we cannot do that. We want a Government that will care for us.

Hon. Opposition Members: That is right.

Mr Miyutu: Mr Chairperson, you know that the United National Independence Party (UNIP) cared for those animals. It created the cordon line and maintained it. Even when we were younger, we used to hear of the cordon line in Kalabo District of the Western Province. We used to hear about it bordering Angola and Sikongo. However, when some people came into power, they did not see the need for that cordon line, maybe, because they do not own animals and so, they do not see the value of these animals. So, these people just forsake the cordon line and now the animals are depleting. 

Hon. UPND Member: Balelyafye tu kolwe.

Mr Miyutu: Sir, what makes us happy? How can someone be happy when they are losing their animals? I am asking the hon. Minister to help us. I know that he can do it. I want to urge the Government to empower the police by giving them vehicles, if they do not have any. If those vehicles have no fuel, give them the fuel as well. If there is insufficient manpower, then, the Government should draw labour from the people it recruits to monitor elections. Take those people to work in the Zambia Police Force. We want security to be restored there.

Mr Chairperson, I talk about Kalabo because that is where I live and I know that place well. Some people think that I politick, but that is not the case. When some people talk, they talk about things that are on paper while I talk about issues that are on the ground. So, my earnest appeal to the Government is that it should send more workers to Kalabo District in the same way it sends people to monitor elections. If I were to liken the number of election monitors who are sent by the Government to sand, I would say it is heaps of sand.

Laughter

Mr Miyutu: Sir, in a normal situation, there are no police. Akuna. That is the meaning of akuna. So, hon. Minister, help us. That is my earnest appeal to the Government.

With those words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to say one or two words particularly on the Vote for the Zambia Police Force. I will be brief in my debate. 

Sir, the first thing I want to talk about is the number of accidents in this country, in particular, those that occur along the Great East Road, between the Chongwe and Rufunsa bridges. That road records accidents almost every other day. These accidents involve mini buses, trucks and even smaller vehicles. When you look back, you discover that these vehicles actually passed through roadblocks. So, what is the problem? We need to protect the people who move on these roads.

Mr Chairperson, we have a problem in Rufunsa because most of these accident victims end up at Mpashya Mission Hospital, which does not have the capacity to contain the situation. So, I am begging the hon. Minister to help us out. This help could be in the form of introducing high way patrols along this road, particularly between the Luangwa and Chongwe bridges. Otherwise, our people will all die in these accidents.

Sir, the other issue that I want to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister is roadblocks or police checkpoints. I do not have a problem with checkpoints on the high way. However, I have a problem with roadblocks being mounted here in town. Sometimes, I find these roadblocks an inconvenience. For instance, you find a roadblock at the University of Zambia (UNZA), and another one in Chelstone. So, I think that it is really inconveniencing to have more than one roadblock on the same road. I thought that the Government had banned the mounting of roadblocks on the main high ways. The situation regarding roadblocks being mounted is back to what it was before.

If, for instance, I am travelling to my constituency, I will find roadblocks at Mono Turn-off, Kapilyomba, Chongwe Showgrounds and Chongwe. There are so many roadblocks to go through. I think there is a need to reduce on the number of roadblocks, particularly within towns.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Laughter 

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, my other concern is the construction of ablution blocks at permanent checkpoints. I wonder where police officers go to relieve themselves at checkpoints.

Laughter 

Mr Chipungu: It might seem laughable, but this is an important issue. I am concerned because police officers spend the whole day at these checkpoints. We brought up this issue at one point and the Government assured us, in this House, that it would look into the matter. 

Mr Chairperson, a number of police posts need to be constructed in Rufunsa District. We need a police post in Chinyunyu and a better facility at Luangwa Bridge, because of the accidents that I have just mentioned. We also need a police post in Chieftainess Shikabeta’s Area. This chiefdom borders Mkushi District and cuts across Mbosha, Chembe and Rufunsa, hence the need for a police post in that area.

Mr Chairperson, we these very few words, I want to say thank you very much.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to say a few words on the debate regarding the Zambia Police Force. Strengthening our democracy hinges on the pillars of the rule of law, competition, co-operation and transparency. However, the most important is the rule of law. I recall early in my political career learning that as human beings, we are affected by or operate in context situations and, therefore, we tend to react differently. We either defend our territory or attack.

Mr Chairperson, if institutions like the Zambia Police Force are not guided by law, then, victims are left to the opinions of a police officer at a particular time. Therefore, the chances of miscarriage of justice are very high. There must be institutions to enforce our laws.

Mr Chairperson, my relatives in Kitwe on the Copperbelt informed me about a particular situation where police officers arrested some criminals. I think we have all read about the so-called gerabos. Thereafter, a team of young robust strong men went to the police station and found a policeman whom they actually physically molested. I was informed that this policeman had to plead saying, “Mwala njipaya fye.”

Laughter 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: That can loosely be translated into saying, “You will kill me. I am just doing my job.” Now, how can the protector of the law, after apprehending somebody who has transgressed, be physically molested while in uniform and be rendered helpless? This is a very serious matter. As some of my colleagues have stated, there seems to be this notion of ‘us against them’ between the police and the public. Where is the boundary?

Sir, an hon. Deputy Minister was harassed in Lusaka West and had to run away although there was a ministerial statement in this House stating that it did not happen.

Laughter

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Now, if our leaders cannot be respected, how will a common person be treated out there?

Mr Ndalamei: Those are Kambwili’s youths.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, although the hon. Minister of Home Affairs issued a statement denying the incident, we saw something else on television (TV).

Laughter 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: So, I guess it is a matter of interpretation. However, my point is that the Zambia Police Force must be given the authority that it deserves by us, as politicians. We are the ones who appoint those to lead this institution. Further, it is imperative that everyone is treated equally before the law. I just want to offer a timely warning to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that the peace we have enjoyed in Zambia for a long time is because of everyone’s effort contributing to it.

Mr Chairperson, let me move on to my second point. I come from Mumbwa where cattle is highly valued. The police in the area are being accused of turning a blind eye to cattle rustling. This is cause for great concern because if the situation persists, then, we will certainly not reduce the poverty that we keep talking about.

 Mr Chairperson, I think it is high time that the training at the Lilayi Police Training College was raised to the highest standard. Police officers must practice their theoretical training in the field. The way young police officers sometimes answer community members leaves much to be desired. It appears as if there is a slight misunderstanding when the police address members of the public. A confrontation will easily break out and there will be threats of arrest. It seems police officers are quick to say, “Iwe, niza ku manga”.

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: It means, “I will arrest you”. I think it is a question of just misunderstanding. Therefore, I want to repeat that I think the training at Lilayi must be revisited. Obviously, a person whose rights have been infringed upon will be emotionally charged. It does not help for police officers to also get emotionally inflamed when dealing with the public. In such a situation, who is going to console the other? So, proper training of our police officers is important.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I want to deal with is that of the rights of citizens who are apprehended. We need to amend our laws. There is a trend of locking up people on Friday and only having them released on Monday.

Laughter 

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: I think that law is not correct. We are Zambian citizens who, before the law, must receive the same justice.

Ms Kapata: That is what happened to us. We were locked up on a Friday.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo: That is the point, Mr Chairperson. If the hon. Minister of Tourism and Arts was arrested on a Friday, the point I am making is that, that should not have happened if we followed the law. That is what I am saying. So, I am grateful she is helping me in my debate that we should rule this country by the rule of law.

Mr Chairperson, when our confidence in the Zambia Police Force gets so eroded, then, we are sowing seeds of people behaving in a manner which does not foster peace. Surely, we do not want to lose that peace. We must continue to build on the confidence in our police. 

Mr Chairperson, we need to discipline these police officers. I do not want to repeat what has already been stated. The police officers should be professional. That is why they go for training. In my view, they must behave like the military. Under the military, you are not promoted until you pass a promotional examination. I think, sometimes, people get to senior positions without having the professional skills.

Mr Chairperson, we are giving free advice to our colleague, who is looking after us, that the rule of law is a must.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I would like to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Is the General alive?

Mr Mwila: Hon. Shikapwasha!

Mr Kambwili: Is he alive?

Bishop Lt-Gen. Shikapwasha woke up.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member was in deep thought.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank my colleagues who have debated on the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central, Hon. Catherine Namugala, Member of Parliament for Mafinga, Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, Hon. Miyutu, Hon. Chipungu, Member of Parliament for Rufunsa and Hon. Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo, Member of Parliament for Rufunsa. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to say that I have taken note of the concerns raised by the debaters. It is important for me to respond to some of the issues that our colleagues have raised. 

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of security checkpoints between Luangwa and Chongwe, hon. Member of Parliament for Rufunsa, we will send officers to check what is going on there. We have started with the security checkpoints to see which ones we will have to maintain. I want to correct the picture which was painted by the hon. Member who said that these security checkpoints do not have toilets. To the contrary, I think, as leaders, let us respect our officers. If you go to Zamtan in Kitwe, you will find a toilet. If you go to Chisamba, you will find a toilet.

Mr Livune: He was talking about Rufunsa.

Mr Mwila: Let us be truthful.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of a police post, I wish to assure Hon. Chipungu that we will visit the area and assess if there is a need to put up one. 

Mr Chairperson, a problem I have noted is that hon. Members raise issues on the Floor of the House and then run away. 

Mr Mutelo: Hon. Miyutu is around.

Mr Mwila: These are very serious issues they raised on the Floor of the House, but as you can see, they do not mean what they say. Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and Hon. Miyutu are not in here. 

Mr Antonio: Question! 

Mr Mwila: Yes, they are not serious.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: I know they are in their vehicles and are listening. Hon. Miyutu raised the issue about Kalabo. I have promised the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central to visit Kalabo. On the Floor of this House, I have stated that once we visit Kalabo, we will, then, make a decision whether to put up a police post there. There was no need for the hon. Member to make noise.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Member was not making noise. So, may you, please, withdraw that statement?

Mr Mwila: I withdraw it, hon. Chairperson.

He was talking too much.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, this is a peaceful country and it shall remain so because we are united. 

Mr Chairperson, there was an issue which Hon. Miyutu raised that there will be a change of Government.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: There will be no change of Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, there will be no change of Government because we just won a ward by-election in Sikongo, in his constituency. So, the Patriotic Front (PF) is here to stay because people are happy with it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: That is the reason they will vote for the PF.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: If they were not happy with us, they would have voted against us. So, Mr Chairperson, Hon. Miyutu is listening. The PF is not going anywhere.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Miyutu entered the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Mwila: He has come.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: The PF is not going away.

Laughter

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, no one is abusing the Zambia Police Force under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Edgar Chagwa Lungu.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: He is the President, bwana.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: He is the President of this country.

Mr Livune: Question!

Mr Mwila: He is the President of this country and this is a very serious matter.

Mr Chairperson, under the leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Lungu, we do not give instructions to the police. They work professionally.

Hon. UPND Members: Question!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I want to justify what I have just said. This is the only Government where you have seen police officers arresting senior Government officials and senior party officials.

Mr Belemu: Where?

Mr Mwila: This has happened only under the leadership of the PF.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, senior Government officials have slept in police cells for two nights. It has never happened before in the history of this country. This is my ninth year in Parliament, but even under the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) leadership ...

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, on my left! Please, let us allow the hon. Minister to respond.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I have been in this Parliament for nine years, but the arresting of senior Government officials never used to happen under the MMD.

Dr Kaingu: It is true.

Mr Mwila: We arrested our provincial chairperson who has been put on defence. This is the only Government that has arrested senior officials and people must appreciate that …

Mr Kambwili: Yes!

Mr Mwila: … it does not interfere in the operations of the police. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: Kamba, mwana!

Mr Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I will not respond to the issue of a police officer who was on radio. I do not want to respond because the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central did not state which radio station the officer was hosted on.

Interruptions

Mr Mwila: I have taken note of the need to increase teams for national registration card (NRC) issuance.

Mr Sikazwe: Chamano ici.

Mr Mwila: On the issue of roadblocks, which was raised by Hon. Namugala, we have stated even on the Floor of this House that we have to reduce on their number.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: That is the position of our ministry and the police command has to follow this instruction. Some of the roadblocks are inconveniencing our people and that is the position of the ministry. 

Mr Chairperson, the police command, worldwide, is appointed by the President and that is our current position. 

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Police Force has not been overpowered by cadres. If that is the case, this matter has to be reported to the ministry and we shall intervene.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of party cadres charging shop owners trading along Freedom Way, Hon. Namugala has to report that to the police and they will intervene. Even the issue raised about Mafinga should be reported to the police and we shall intervene.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of cattle rustling, I promised the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central to visit Kalabo. Arrangements for this visit are underway. We will also visit Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo’s area.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words …    

Hon. Member: Chitenges?

Mr Mwila: I do not want to talk about Chitenge materials because I am not here to talk about political parties. If I start talking about political parties, you will be offended.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/02 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Protective Unit – K52,388,629).

Mr Miyanda:  Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 4031, Activity 025 – Procurement of Fire Arms – K2, 009,332.

The Deputy Chairperson: Sorry, you are behind. We are dealing with Vote 11/02.

Mr Kambwili: Niba shimapepo balya. Mulebelelako.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Mutelo rose and left the Assembly Chamber.

The Deputy Chairperson: I thought that Hon. Mutelo was trying to catch my eye.

Laughter

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

__________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 11th November, 2015.