Debates - Tuesday, 23rd June, 2015

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Tuesday, 23rd June, 2015

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

ACTING GOVERNMENT CHIEF WHIP

Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that in the absence of the Minister of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication, and Government Chief Whip, Hon. Mukanga, MP, who is attending to other Government Business, the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs, Hon. Dr Joseph Katema, MP, has been appointed Acting Government Chief Whip in the House from today, 23rd June, 2015, until further notice.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

IMPACT OF THE XENOPHOBIC VIOLENCE IN SOUTH AFRICA ON ZAMBIANS AND CITIZENS OF THE SADC REGION

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Kalaba): Mr Speaker, following the directive by Her Honour the Vice-President who is also Leader of Government Business in the House, allow me to brief the House on the impact of the xenophobic violence in South Africa on Zambians and other citizens of the South African Development Community (SADC) countries living in South Africa.

Sir, the House may recall that in April, 2015, there was some xenophobic violence which started in KwaZulu-Natal Province and eventually spread to Gauteng Province.

Mr Speaker, since the end of apartheid and the ushering in of the multi-party democratic system of Government in 1994 in South Africa, large numbers of people from all over the world, especially African countries, migrated to South Africa in search of economic prospects. This has exerted pressure on various communities in South Africa, leading to the resentment of foreigners by some South Africans.

Sir, it should be noted that there are various contributing factors to the xenophobia in South Africa such as the competition for scarce resources, the violent past and its related issues that have been left unresolved, inadequate service delivery and the influence of micro-politics in townships. In addition, some groupings of South African nationals have not accepted the presence of refugees, asylum seekers and foreigners in their communities. This has exacerbated the resentment of foreigners, particularly of African origin, among the locals.

Mr Speaker, in an effort to protect Zambians from the xenophobic attacks, the Zambian High Commission in Pretoria was instructed to advise all Zambians living in South Africa to be cautious and avoid areas which were reported or perceived to have been affected by the xenophobic attacks. In this regard, the Zambian Government issued a series of press statements in a bid to reassure the public that the welfare of Zambian nationals living in and travelling to South Africa remained a priority. Furthermore, during the xenophobic violence, staff from the Zambian High Commission was deployed to Durban to assess the situation and render support to Zambian nationals. Similarly, Zambians travelling to South Africa, particularly cross-border traders, were strongly advised to ensure personal safety.

Sir, as a result of the measures that were taken by the Zambia Government, I am pleased to report to this august House that there were no reports of any Zambian nationals living in South Africa being victims of the attacks. In addition, His Excellency President Edgar Chagwa Lungu continued to consult with His Excellency President Robert Gabriel Mugabe, in his capacity as Chairperson of the SADC, and the leadership of the Government of the Republic of South Africa on measures to arrest the violence.

Mr Speaker, following the concerns raised by the SADC Region, the South African Government launched a successful anti-crime campaign dubbed Operation Fiela, which focused on drug and human trafficking, hijacking, illegal firearms and other serious crimes. The South African Police, with support from the army, has since recovered illegal firearms, rescued victims of child trafficking and destroyed drug-making dens. The operation has a monitoring mechanism which provides for periodic review and assessment of factors likely to cause xenophobic violence.

Sir, the xenophobic violence continues to be a matter of grave concern not only to the SADC Region, but also the entire continent. In this regard, His Excellency Mr Jacob Zuma, the President of the Republic of South Africa, reported his Government’s response to the xenophobic attacks on foreign nationals to the African Union (AU) Heads of State and Governments Summit which was held in Johannesburg in June, 2015. President Zuma stressed that his country took its obligations under the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights seriously and that, as a signatory to the various international conventions on human rights, including the protocol relating to the status of refugees, his country was committed to promoting and protecting the human rights of foreigners. He also pointed out that South Africa’s Constitution protected the rights of all local and foreign nationals living in the country. He further stated that the various measures, including peace marches and media campaigns, were intended to promote peaceful co-existence and tolerance and help to overcome the attitude that South Africans had against fellow Africans.

Mr Speaker, President Zuma also urged his fellow leaders in the AU to respond to the challenge of migration and work towards the realisation of the Agenda 2063, which is the AU development agenda, in their collective efforts towards a better and integrated Africa.

Sir, I wish to report that as a result of these interventions, the Zambian nationals have continued to travel to South Africa and those living in that country have also continued with their normal lives. However, they are expected to heed the Zambian Government’s counsel not to patronise violent-prone areas. As for the many survivors of the xenophobic attacks from other SADC countries, they have since returned to their countries of origin. Those who were displaced within South Africa have since reintegrated in the various communities. The SADC has since welcomed the measures that the relevant authorities in South Africa have taken to prevent the recurrence of the xenophobic violence.

Mr Speaker, I wish to conclude by stating that Zambia and South Africa enjoy warm historical ties that have translated into strong economic, social and cultural relations between the two countries. We should, therefore, continue to capitalise on these relations in our effort to promote trade, tourism and investment between the two countries.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement given by the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Mr Konga (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister  indicated that the xenophobic attacks were partly as a result of the migrants who went to South Africa in search of economic opportunities. Could he inform this House which countries in Africa, other than South Africa, are creating economic opportunities for their nationals in order to forestall their migration to other countries like South Africa.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, within the umbrella of Agenda 2063 there is an initiative dubbed “Africa we Want” which is aimed at ensuring that African countries begin interrogating various sectors in their respective countries to see how best the continent can move as one and how counties can trade easily, and create the best opportunities for themselves. Under the Agenda 2063, are the New Partnership for African Development (NEPAD) that is propagating infrastructure development in Africa, the SADC and the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA). All these umbrella bodies seek to propagate Africa’s interest within the Agenda Africa.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, seeing the pictures of victims of the xenophobic attacks in South Africa made most of us very sad. I would like to find out whether during the meeting of the Heads of State of the South African Development Community (SADC) countries, it was made very clear to the President of South Africa that the members of the SADC, especially Zambia, paid a huge price for South Africa to gain the independence that it is enjoying. Did the leaders come out strongly enough to remind South Africa that no African in the SADC Region deserves to be treated the way people were treated by the South Africans?

 Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, firstly, the record needs to be set straight. It is not South Africa as a whole that perpetrated the violence, but a few individuals in that country. I, therefore, think that a distinction should be made.

Sir, to answer Hon. Namugala’s question as to whether Heads of State spoke about this matter strongly, yes, they did because they were concerned about this matter. President Zuma briefed the SADC Heads of State in Harare and, recently, in Johannesburg because most of them had expressed their displeasure over this issue.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, the xenophobic attacks made sad reading.

Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why only blacks were attacked, and yet there are other nationals living in South Africa like the Chinese, Europeans and Americans just to mention a few. Does this mean that there were some whites behind the attacks?

 Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I also do not know why the attacks were selective. I am not competent enough to answer on behalf of the people who perpetrated the acts.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

 Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has just told this House that the attacks were not perpetrated by South Africans as a whole, but by certain elements in South Africa. We know that some high profile political leaders in South Africa have been associated with the attacks. I do not want to mention any names, but I think the hon. Minister knows them.

Sir, when the Zambian public became aware that the Zambian Government was too shy to confront the South Africans, they decided to stage a demonstration in order to express their anger, disappointment and displeasure with the black-to-black violence. May I find out why they were stopped.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, the issue of whether the Zambian Government was too shy to talk about this matter can only be fallacious. The truth of the matter is that the Zambian Government was very committed from the very beginning. We, as the Government, have expressed our views on this matter at various fora through diplomatic channels and using other means. It is for this reason that we have endeavoured to ensure that Zambians living here and those in South Africa were properly informed on this matter. As for the issue of people that were planning to march or were purported to have been stopped from marching, I wish to inform the House that I am not aware of any people who was stopped from expressing their views on that matter. The fact is that I have seen and heard various individuals express their views on this matter.

Sir, the House may also wish to know that President Lungu has been very active on this matter and ensured that no Zambian was affected in this fiasco. It is for this reason that we sent officers from the High Commission in South Africa to go to KwaZulu-Natal and to verify and make sure that no Zambian citizens was caught up in fiasco.

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to explain what he knows about the role that King Zwelithini of KwaZulu-Natal played or was purported to have played through the speech that he gave to the effect that non-South Africans should go back to their countries of origin to look for jobs. Is he also aware that it is such talk that promotes vices that are related to tribalism? In our country, today, we are aware that the Secretary-General of the Patriotic Front (PF) …

Mr Speaker: Order!           

Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, could you confine yourself to the statement.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, could you kindly tell the House what role King Zwelethini played in perpetrating the violence and whether you believe that such hate speech can lead to like genocide.

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mazabuka Central has realised that hate speech, which has tribal inclinations, can result in serious civil strife. I hope that the question that he has asked speaks to him as well. As for the role that King Zwelethini played, it is not for me to weigh the effects it can have on society.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, talking about the Agenda 2063 and projecting xenophobia in that context, what is the hon. Minister and his colleagues on the continent doing to educate the African citizenry about the importance of mutual respect, co-existence and unity, which are at the core of African unity and can eventually help people to overcome the fear of foreigners which xenophobia centres on?

Mr Kalaba: Mr Speaker, I will soon come back to this House to talk about the just-ended African Union (AU) Summit. In that presentation, issues of how Africans are coming together, including the flagship programmes that we have introduced, will be discussed. Africa is working actively to ensure that the continent operates as one. This is being done through the recently signed declaration on the Tripartite Free Trade Area in Sharm el Sheik. We are using various mechanisms under the African umbrella to ensure that the dream and aspirations of the Agenda 2063 are realised in their entirety.

I thank you, Sir.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

LUSAKA CITY COUNCIL SALE OF PUBLIC PROPERTY

546. Mrs Masebo (Chongwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a)    whether the ministry was aware that the Lusaka City Council (LCC) had recently sold most, if not all, of its nurseriesveand play parks to private developers;

(b)    what other properties the council had disposed of;

(c)    what the rationale for disposing of such important public property was; and

(d)    whether procedure, including obtaining state consent, was followed to the letter when disposing of the properties.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr N. Banda): Mr Speaker, the ministry is not aware that the LCC has sold most or all its nurseries and play parks to private developers. The LCC has thirty-seven play parks and none of them have been sold to private developers. Some of the play parks have just been adopted and are on short term lease to private institutions. There are some play parks such as Nyoro in Woodlands and Northmead that have matters relating to their ownership currently in court.

Sir, the LCC has disposed of Libala Lot 20435, commonly known as Looters. This is an area that had remained idle for a long time. After receiving concerns from stakeholders, the council resolved to offload the five hectare piece of land to private investors for infrastructure development. This was done to prevent people from taking illegal possession of the said piece of land.

Mr Speaker, the rationale behind the disposal of this piece of land was to stop unscrupulous individuals from encroaching on it since it had remained idle for a long time. To this effect, the developer by the name of Huang Feng will construct a shopping mall, sporting facilities such as the tennis, basket ball and netball courts, and an amusement park for children on the same premises.

Sir, council followed the right procedure to dispose of the said piece of land and went through all the other formalities such as engaging the private-public partnerships (PPPs) and the Commissioner of Lands. In addition, there was no need to seek authority from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to change the use of the piece of land, as it was originally designated for mixed use.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has not adequately answered the question. I say so because I am aware that there is a nursery situated near State House that has recently been the subject of public discussion. The hon. Minister may wish to know that I was the councillor for that ward and Deputy Mayor for the City of Lusaka in 1991. So, I know that area very well. I visited the nursery and the workers informed me that it was being sold. I picked up my phone and called, …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chongwe, you could go on and on. There is really no limit to how much you can narrate. However, this is time for points of clarification. What is your point of clarification?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I am not asking a point of clarification, but asking the hon. Minister to give us a better response.

Mr Speaker: Well, you can take a seat, hon. Member. If it is not a point of clarification, then, this is not the right platform. This time is for asking supplementary questions.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I want to put it to the hon. Minister that the park near State House, which is also a nursery for flowers, has been sold. Could he deny this or not.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, it has been, “put to you.”

Mr N. Banda: Mr Speaker, I am sure that the ministry will take that information into consideration. I am aware that one of the parks in the area that the hon. Member is talking about is still under contention and facts relating to what she has said are yet to be established.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, if I may elaborate, a question was, “put to you.” You were asked to confirm whether or not the property in question has been sold. That is what it means to be, “put to” in that question.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Phiri): Mr Speaker, the ownership of the park in question is still being challenged by the Lusaka City Council (LCC). When the matter has been dealt with, we shall let the House know.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, we need to make progress on this matter. We can avert a lot of questions if we clear the air. The question is, has the property been sold or not?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the property has not been sold. If there are other issues surrounding this property, we are not aware of them. What we know is that the property belongs to the LCC, which has the mandate to protect its properties. If there is evidence to the effect that there is another owner of this property, the LCC will challenge that. I can confirm, however, that the property has not been sold.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: That is a clear answer.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, most newspapers have reported that some properties belonging to the Lusaka City Council (LCC) have been sold. Does the hon. Minister have knowledge of any parks belonging to the council that have been sold? Maybe, he can cite one or two examples.

Mr Speaker: For avoidance of doubt, hon. Minister, you can go ahead and give an answer.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister was very clear, in his response, that no park has been sold. In fact, when the issue was raised in one of the daily tabloids, I directed the Permanent Secretary (PS) for my ministry on 17th June, 2015, to liaise with the LCC to establish the truth. A detailed report was given to the ministry and the report indicates that the established procedures for the disposal of Looters’ Park were followed to the letter. Therefore, there was no need for the council to seek approval from the ministry, as the land in question was zoned and is still zoned for mixed use. This is what the hon. Deputy Minister was trying to tell this august House.

The council had to take this step to avoid the land being encroached on, which could have created more difficulties. The community was duly consulted before the piece of land was disposed of. Above all, the character of the piece of land in question has not only been maintained, but the council also hopes that it will be enhanced, as you heard from the response by the hon. Deputy Minister. Apart from the shopping mall, the investor will also put up sports facilities. In addition, there will be an amusement park for children. This infrastructure was not there considering that the piece of land has been idle for ages.

Sir, let us talk about a specific issue instead of looking at it from a holistic perspective.  Let me add that the council’s revenue base will be broadened through higher property rates. I have no doubt at all that nothing sinister took place.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Sir, the hon. Minister is aware of an English adage which goes, “All work without play makes John a dull boy.”

Mr Muntanga: Which John?

Mr Nkombo: I am not talking about the hon. Minister who, coincidentally, has the same name. Can the hon. Minister confirm whether or not he is contemplating continuing with the leasing of public areas such as botanical gardens and play parks. Can he also confirm that the Government does not appreciate that, “All work without play, makes John a dull boy.”

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, let me confirm that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has already spoken to the councils to consider creating play park facilities for children. This is why, in this case, we have insisted that the investor should also construct play park facilities alongside the shopping mall so that children can also benefit from the project.

As a ministry, we generally advocate the construction of play parks, but we understand the predicament many of our councils are in. The resource envelope is too thin for them to objectively go on this path of creating play park facilities for children.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Namugala (Mafinga): Mr Speaker, I hope that the hon. Minister understands that our interest in the Lusaka City Council (LCC) is because this is the capital city and most of us reside here. Has he conducted investigations to adequately answer part (b) of Hon. Masebo’s Question which seeks to find out what other properties the council has disposed of. Can the hon. Minister confidently tell us that no other properties have been sold by the LCC.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, let me reiterate that when the purported scam appeared in the public press, I directed the Permanent Secretary (PS) for my ministry to follow up the matter. He, in turn, demanded for a comprehensive report. So, we are giving the House this feedback based on the comprehensive report that report that stated that only one property, which is Libala Lot 20435, commonly known as Looters, has been disposed of. If we hear of any other case, we, as ministry, might consider carrying out a more comprehensive investigation.

I thank you, Sir.

Brig-Gen. Dr Chituwo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister, in his response,  mentioned that there was no need for the Lusaka City Council (LCC)  to seek authority from the ministry to change the use of this piece of land. Can the hon. Minister confirm that there was no need to seek authority.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is obliged, by law, to deal with issues of land use. Various institutions and individuals apply for land use. If the piece of land was zoned or designated for mixed use, then, there was no need to obtain authority from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, as you ask questions, please, avoid repetition. The compass is quite narrow, and I note a lot of repetition on the part of the hon. Minister as he responds.

Mr Kazabu (Nkana): Mr Speaker, what is in the public domain on this issue is the piece of land under discussion was actually sold and some councillors and, possibly, the council management benefited from the transaction. May I find out from the hon. Minister whether the transaction was carried out in a ‘cold-blooded’ manner.

Mr Muntanga: Cold blooded?

Mr Speaker: What did you say in the latter part of your question?

Mr Kazabu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether this transaction was carried out without any benefit accruing to individuals.

Mr Muntanga: Cold blooded?

Laughter

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the land that we are talking about is Looters …

Laughter

Dr Phiri: Libala Lot 20435, commonly known as Looters. It was named after the basketball team that used to use the piece of land.

What happened is that – I hope I can forestall some of the impending questions the Lusaka City Council (LCC), in liaison with the community, disposed of the piece of land in order to create more facilities that would benefit the community. The piece of land was advertised as per the PPPs Regulations. Huang Feng came top on the list of those wishing to undertake the project. If there was any blood arrangement, …

Mr Muntanga: Blood!

Dr Phiri: Blood arrangement.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister, let us move away from that expression. I think you may have noted that I discouraged its use.

Dr Phiri: I thank you, Sir, for the correction.

If there were other motives, they were not tolerated by the council. Precisely, that is the reason it has now put in the daily papers probably by those who felt that they should have benefited from the arrangement. We, however, have no record of certain individuals inside or outside the council who benefitted directly from this transaction.

So, I would urge this august House to trust the ministry on the information it has from the LCC. This is why I say if there are still other issues that need to be addressed, we, as a ministry, have no problem addressing them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, it is …

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Firstly, let me apologise to my colleague, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu East, for disrupting him.

Mr Speaker, this point of order is related to the law relating to former President’s conditions of service and is directed at Her Honour the Vice-President who is also the Leader of Government Business in the House, Mrs Inonge Wina. Is the Government in order to allow this embarrassment of unsizeable nature to occur to our former First Lady, Dr Christine Kaseba, not long after the demise of our late President, Mr Michael Chilufya Sata, may his soul rest in peace? The Government rented 8 Reedbuck Lodge for Dr Kaseba and her family sometime in January, 2015. Lease contract was between the Cabinet Office and the owners of 8 Reedbuck Lodge. Not long ago, the former First Lady was evicted from 8 Reedbuck Lodge and is currently residing with her mother …

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Nkombo: … in Libala opposite a shopping mall called Sky Club.

Mr Muntanga: Mm!

Mr Nkombo: The Government has relegated its responsibility to look after the former First Lady.

Sir, is the Government in order to allow such an awkward situation where the former First Lady has to live in her mother’s house in Libala?

Mr Mbewe: Ah!

Mr Speaker: My ruling is that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central should file in a question of an urgent nature and it shall be forwarded to his colleagues on the right to respond.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Lukulu East continue.

Dr Kalila: Sir, when the point of order was raised, I was about to say that when one buys property, it is entirely up to him/her to use it in whichever way he/she wants.

Mr Pande: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Pande: I would like to apologise to my brother on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, as the House may know, I rarely rise on points of order, but this one is very compelling, as it affects the nation and each one of us here. The point of order is directed at the hon. Minister who is usually proactive but, this time, he is not. There are fears and worries in the country relating to the outbreak of elephantiasis. This morning, I received a phone call from Kasempa in relation to the same.

I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister of Health is in order not inform the House and the nation about the outbreak which has been playing rounds in the media, thereby  causing panic in the country. I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister of Health is in order not to inform the nation to what extent this disease has spread.

I seek your ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: My ruling is predictable. File in a question of an urgent nature.

Let me seize this opportunity to counsel hon. Members. Normally, when we receive questions of this nature, we process them with utmost dispatch. As soon as we receive them, we direct them to your colleagues to respond. So, let us use this facility.

The problem with points of order, as you can see, is that we are not able to make progress in the itemised business. I am not underrating the subject matters, as they are all equally important in the four corner of the country, but these points of order can go on and even take an hour. There are a lot of issues going on around the country. However, let me assure you that when you file in a question, we shall treat it with utmost urgency.

I need to make progress in the issue under debate. So, for the time being, I am not allowing any more points of order.

The hon. Member for Lukulu East may continue.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, once a property has been sold, it is entirely up to the buyer to use it as he/she wishes whereas, when it is leased, the buyer’s use is subjected to the conditions of the lease. The latter is what you have done to various properties in the city. Therefore, if this sale was really in the best interest of the nation and the council, why did you choose to sell it and not lease it?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, this property was disposed of to create a specific opportunity for the council to raise money and also allow the developer to add more value to the property, which the council did not have capacity to do. Therefore, the ministry and the council felt that selling the piece of land was the best option.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Belemu (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, both the hon. Minister and his Deputy, in referring to the piece of land called Looters’ Park, said that it was disposed of because they feared that the land would be encroached on. May I find out whether it is the Government’s policy for councils to sell pieces of land that they fear could be encroached upon?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, it may be useful for the hon. Member of Parliament to know that the original size of Looters’ Park was seven hectares. Two hectares have since ‘disappeared’. This was an alarm enough for the council to consider taking the steps that it took. However, this is not the standard way of doing things. In the case of this piece land, this was the deciding factor.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, this is the first time that I have heard of land disappearing.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, when the hon. Minister was asked to state whether the Lusaka City Council (LCC) had sold the land, he said that the matter was in dispute. Later, he stated that it had been sold. If it has been sold and there are no encumbrances, why is his ministry and the council disputing and wanting to know more about this piece of land which has already been sold, knowing that land can disappear without any reason?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, how can I be clearer than I have been?

Dr Phiri laughed.

Dr Phiri: Although we might have lost track of where we came from and where we are, the question was very clear as to whether the ministry is aware of any play parks or nurseries that are being sold. We said that we were not aware, but added more information by saying that there are some play parks in the City of Lusaka whose ownership is being disputed in the courts of law. This is not the same as saying that we are not aware of any play parks or nurseries. When Hon. Masebo asked a supplemented question, we said that the council is currently challenging a matter relating to a deed of title that is reported to have been wrongly issued. The sports club, to be specific, is one of the properties whose ownership we seek to revert to the council. This is the position.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that there is a piece of land which belongs to the council whose ownership is being disputed. May I find out how the ownership of this piece of land, which belonged to the council, is now being claimed by somebody else?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, the piece of land that I referred to, which is reportedly in other people’s hands, is the property of the council. How the claimants got ownership is another matter. However, as far as we are concerned, we are vigorously challenging the ownership because it is obvious that it was wrongly obtained. How it was obtained is not part of my responsibility or mandate.

Mr Speaker, let me give a little clarification. I know that Hon. Dr Kalila asked me a specific question which I did not answer sufficiently. Let me say that the council has a say on structures to be built on all council land. This is why people apply to the council to have their building plans approved. So, the council has a say even in the case of Looters’ Park.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr L. J. Ngoma:  Mr Speaker, information …

Mr Shakafuswa stood on a point of order.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Katuba, the problem is that you have just walked in. So, you are not aware that there are no points of order being allowed.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, the information in the public domain is that the sale of Looters’ Park is controversial and scandalous. You can tell from the way questions are being raised on the Floor of the House. Hon. Minister, do you really believe that selling the piece of land is the right way to go? Do you not think that in view of the controversy, and the tension in the nation arising thereof, the sale should be cancelled and the ownership of the piece of land reverted?

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, for the last time,

Mr Speaker: Order!

That was the last question.

Dr Phiri: Mr Speaker, I am glad it is. For the last time, let me iterate that from the ministry’s  point of view, the established procedures were followed to the letter, and that there was no need, in this case, for the council to seek approval from the hon. Minister as is done in other land uses because, in this case, Looters’ Park was zoned for mixed use. If there are other issues that will emerge from the Lusaka City Council (LCC), we shall be informed. However, from the records that we have, we as a ministry, are satisfied that the right procedure was followed. This is the only piece of land about which the public has not told the full story. However, if you want to believe the public, go ahead and do so. I did not know that the magnitude of a problem is measured by the number of questions raised in Parliament. However, if that is the measure, people should find other wrangles related to land to be debated. As for the issue relating to Looters’ Park, procedures were followed.

I thank you, Sir.

CLASSROOMS AND TEACHERS’ HOUSES IN LIUWA

547. Dr Musokotwane asked the Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    whether the Government had any plans to rehabilitate classroom blocks and teachers’ houses at the following schools in Liuwa Parliamentary Constituency:

    (i)    Kuuli;
    (ii)    Mishulundu;
    (iii)    Libonda Basic;
    (iv)    Mukola;
    (v)    Mushukula;
    (vi)    Lukena;
    (vii)    Siluwe; and
    (viii)    Salunda.

    (b)    if so, when the works would commence;

    (c)    what the time frame for the completion of the works was; and

    (d)    if there were no such plans, why.

The Deputy Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education (Mr Mabumba): Mr Speaker, the Government will rehabilitate some of the classroom blocks at the mentioned schools. However, it is not possible for the district to undertake such capital projects at all schools at once due to budgetary constraints. Therefore, the Government will undertake works at some of the schools that have been mentioned in 2016 and 2017.

Mr Speaker, works will commence once the projects are included in the 2016 and 2017 Infrastructure Development Plan for the ministry.

Mr Speaker, the time frame for the completion of works will only be known once issues of fund mobilisation have been dealt with in 2016 and 2017.

Mr Speaker, as stated above, there are plans to rehabilitate classrooms and construct teachers’ houses at the said schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, some of the classrooms and teachers’ houses are in such a bad state that they could collapse before the end of the coming rainy season. What measures has the ministry taken to ensure that …

Mr Shakafuswa stood on a point of order.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The point of order has been suspended.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, some of the classroom blocks and teachers’ houses are badly dilapidated. They have big cracks, and will most likely not be able to withstand the coming rainy season. What measures is the ministry thinking of putting in place before a calamity takes place?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, just like I said earlier, the schools will be rehabilitated. I totally agree with Hon. Dr Musokotwane that the buildings are in a poor state. For example, I have been to Libonda Basic School, and the picture there is gloomy. Unfortunately, no emergency measures have been put in place to rehabilitate the buildings. However, like I said earlier, our view is that we should be able to rehabilitate the classrooms and staff houses in 2016 and 2017. Probably, we can consult with our colleagues in the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) on what measures we could put in place in the meantime.

I thank you, Sir.

Prof. Lungwangwa (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has admitted that the conditions of the classroom infrastructure are dismal. Why has the hon. Minister not impressed upon the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) to include the dilapidated structure in the Infrastructure Development Plan over the past two years or so?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the decision on which school is upgraded or rehabilitated is made at local level. I want to encourage the hon. Members of Parliament to always feel free to interact with our colleagues at district level so that they have an input on which projects should be included in the Infrastructure Development Plan, the hon. Members of Parliament instead of leaving the decision to the District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) who might have their priorities. Therefore, colleagues, it is not up me to instruct the DEBS to include certain structures in the Infrastructure Development Plan, but the stakeholders at community level. I, therefore, request Hon. Dr Musokotwane to liaise with the DEBS in Kalabo so that some of this infrastructure could be included in the Infrastructure Development Plan.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister mentioned that some of the listed schools will be rehabilitated in 2016 and 2017. There are eight schools that have been listed. Can the hon. Minister mention the schools, among the eight, that have been targeted for rehabilitation.

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, all the eight schools will be provided for. Four of them will be rehabilitated in 2016, and the other four will be rehabilitated in 2017.

I thank you, Sir.

YOUTH TRAINING CENTRE IN MWINILUNGA

548. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga) asked the Minister of Youth and Sport:

(a)    when a youth training centre would be constructed in Mwinilunga Parliamentary Constituency;

(b)    when the construction of the youth training centre in Chief Kanongesha’s Chiefdom would be completed; and

(c)    when the enrolment of students at the training centre at (b) would commence.
 
The Deputy Minister of Youth and Sport (Mr Chitotela): Mr Speaker, the Government’s policy is to construct, at least, one youth resource centre in each district. In this regard, Mwinilunga District already has a youth resource centre located in Chief Kanongesha’s Chiedfdom. This august House may wish to note that due to limited resources, the Government is unable to construct youth resource centres in constituencies at the moment.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Youth and Sport has completed Phase I of the construction of Mwinilunga Youth Resource Centre, and will commence Phase II once funds are made available.

Sir, this centre, which I have been to, became operational in 2013. Currently, there are seventy-five students undertaking training in carpentry, general agriculture and tailoring.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what the entry qualifications for youth resource centres. Is there a minimum qualification?

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, we do not consider qualifications because we want to bridge the gap between those that have been to school and those that have not. Therefore, whether one is a Grade 7 or Grade 1 dropout, they can enrol for training in carpentry, general agriculture or tailoring. Even those that have gone up to Grade 12 can enrol.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Namulambe (Mpongwe): Mr Speaker, part (b) of the Question is asking when construction of the youth training centre in Chief Kanongesha’s Chiefdom will be completed. The answer that the hon. Minister gave to the effect that the construction will be completed as soon as funds are made available, is not adequate. The time when the construction will be completed should be stated. Hon. Minister, will it be completed in 2016 or 2017 since the availability of funds depends on when a project is budgeted for?

Mr Chitotela: Mr Speaker, I shall my response for the avoidance of doubt. The youth resource centre under discussion has a 1x4 classroom block, two staff houses and a dormitory. Currently, the programme is being run in three phases, and Phase II will begin when funds are made available. It was supposed to be a continuous process, but we do not have enough funds. However, once we are funded by the Ministry of Finance, we shall continue with Phase II.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

BOUNDARY DISPUTE BETWEEN CHIEFS MWINUNA AND MUKUBWE

549. Mr Namulambe asked the Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs:

(a)    whether the Government was aware of the boundary dispute between Chief Mwinuna in Mpongwe District and Chief Mukubwe in the newly-created Ngabwe District;

(b)    what the cause of the dispute was; and

(c)    what measures the Government had taken to resolve the dispute.

The Deputy Minister of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs (Mr Kufuna): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the boundary dispute between Chief Mwinuna of Mpongwe District and Chief Mukubwe of Ngabwe District. According to the two chiefs, the boundary between the two chiefdoms has not been clearly defined, as each one of them is claiming land that belongs to the other. The ministry has liaised with the Office of the Surveyor-General to produce the 1958 Chiefdom Boundary Maps with narrations which will be distributed and explained to the two the chiefs.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, the answer given is very far from the truth because the boundaries have no narratives. The answer to part (b) of the Question is also very far from the truth.

Can the ministry consider holding a meeting at Chisanga, in Mpongwe or anywhere else where both parties from Chief Mukubwe and Chief Mwinuna’s areas and officials from both Central and Copperbelt provinces can are present to look at the documentary evidence of what is obtaining on the ground as opposed to the response given. Can you consider holding a meeting as quickly as possible to resolve this problem because your answer, hon. Minister, is very far from the truth.

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, all I can say is that our answer is correct. The hon. Member talked about maps that have no narratives. Indeed, the maps that were produced in 1958 do not have narratives. That is why this matter could not be concluded. However, we have engaged the Office of the Surveyor-General to produce maps with narratives which will help us know exactly which land belongs to who.

Mr Speaker, when this dispute started, the 1958 maps, which did not have narratives, were produced and the dispute could not be settled. So  maps with narratives will be produced so that this issue is resolved.  

I thank you, Sir.  

Mr Speaker: Your reaction to the proposal for a meeting, hon. Minister?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the meeting will be held after we get the maps with narratives.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I want to take advantage of this question and the answer given by the hon. Minister to talk about the boundary dispute between Chieftainess Mungule and Chief Liteta because the Office of the Surveyor-General has come up with a map showing different boundaries from the 1958 map where the Liteta Chiefdom has been moved into Katuba by almost 50 km.

What are you going to do to ensure that the new maps, in accordance with the ones for 1958, have narratives and the boundaries are not moved because that is what is causing the disputes?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, the problem with the earlier maps is that they have no narratives. They only contain drawings, and the features that the chiefs knew as landmarks are no longer there. For example, if a chief knew a river as the boundary and that river has dried up, …

Laughter
Mr Kufuna: … or a tree, which has since been cut, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

He has provided an answer. The river is dry.

Mr Kufuna: Yes, the river is dry.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kufuna: We have such instances where things like that happen.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, we are talking about coming up with more details which will help us to identify who owns which piece of land.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lufuma (Kabompo West): Mr Speaker, considering that there are a lot of issues relating to boundaries, which cause a lot of land disputes amongst our chiefs, is the Government considering abolishing chiefdoms?

Mr Shakafuswa: Ah!

Mr Speaker: It is a question.

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, we have not thought of that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Belemu: Mr Speaker, in response to the question on the Floor, the hon. Minister seems to indicate that this problem will have to wait for the Office of the Surveyor-General to come up with some new maps. However, that is a nationwide programme based on the information the Ministry Chiefs and Traditional Affairs has given us. Should this problem, which is now a crisis, wait for the maps, which will arrive at an unknown date, or should the ministry not do something in the interim because this has become a crisis?

Mr Kufuna: Mr Speaker, I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that this crisis will be resolved because we are focusing on the specific dispute that has been brought to the attention of the Ministry of Chiefs and Traditional Affairs. We have already presented this case to the Office of the Surveyor-General so that we resolve the dispute.

I thank you, Sir.

SECONDARY SCHOOLS IN CHADIZA

550.    Mr Mbewe asked the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education:

(a)    when the construction of the following secondary schools in Chadiza would commence:

(i)    Chadiza Day; and
(ii)     Taferansoni;

(b)    what had caused the delay in commencing the two projects;

(c)    what the cost of constructing each school was and;
(d)    who the contractor for the projects were.

Mr Mabumba: The two schools are operational as secondary schools although they are using the old primary school infrastructure. However, in order to improve infrastructure at the said two schools, we are using the community mode to build a 1x3 classroom block at Chadiza Day and 1x4 classroom block at Taferansoni secondary schools respectively.

Sir, the reason for the delay was due to inadequate funding. Chadiza Day and Taferansoni secondary school projects are estimated at K306,000 and K750,000 respectively, under the community mode of construction. The contractor for Chadiza Day is Cholinga while the contractor for Taferansoni is Kennedy Banda.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, it is true that the community has devoted itself to contributing towards the construction of the secondary schools. Has the Government completely withdrawn from the projects, or will it budget for them in 2016?

Mr Mabumba: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education has not withdrawn from the projects. As Hon. Mbewe is aware, while we have these two projects, the Government is supporting the upgrading of three day secondary schools under the programme of converting primary schools to day secondary schools. We want to thank the community and Hon. Mbewe for supplementing our efforts. However, we have upgraded primary schools to day secondary schools, the Ministry of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education is going to support the construction of Chadiza Day and Taferansoni secondary schools.

I thank you, Sir.

__________

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATION, TRANSPORT, WORKS AND SUPPLY

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply for the Fourth Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 5th June, 2015.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Chishimba (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, your Committee’s work this session was guided by the terms of reference as set out in the National Assembly Standing Orders. Going by its terms of reference, your Committee undertook a study of the construction industry in Zambia vis-à-vis the participation of local contractors and the management and maintenance of Government buildings in Zambia. Your Committee also considered the Action-taken Report on the Report of your previous Committee.

Sir, in pursuance of the above, your Committee interacted with several stakeholders who tendered both written and oral submissions. To further appreciate what was obtaining on the ground in other countries, your Committee undertook a study tour to Kenya from 5th to 12th April, 2015. The foreign tour provided your Committee with an opportunity to learn the best practices in the maintenance and management of the Government’s buildings and the empowerment of local contractors in the construction industry in Kenya.

Mr Speaker, it is my belief that hon. Members have read the report. Therefore, I will only highlight the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during its deliberations.

Sir, let me begin by giving a brief analysis of your Committee’s observances and recommendations as contained in the report.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that the National Council for Construction Act No. 13 of 2003 limits the punishment of erring construction companies to only those that undertake work for public sector contracts.

In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government amends the National Council for Construction Act No. 13 of 2003 so that the National Council for Construction (NCC) can also regulate and punish all the erring contractors who undertake non-Government works in the private sector.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to note that some stakeholders have a tendency to act as sub-contractors on medium to large projects, particularly road projects, due to limited access to plants and machinery. It is your Committee’s considered view that the Government ensures that co-operative schemes among contractors, especially small and medium-scale contractors, are encouraged so that it is easier for them to access equipment and other requirements.

Sir, your Committee observes that the Government does not pay contractors for various infrastructure projects within the contractual period. Recent examples include the delay in rehabilitation works on the Ndola/Kitwe Dual Carriageway and the Luangwa Bridge/Feira Road due to delayed payments. In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government puts in place measures to ensure that contractors are paid on time.

Mr Speaker, your Committee, therefore, calls on the Government to ensure that the 20 per cent mandatory sub-contracting to local contractors in the road sector is adopted for all construction activities and the threshold be increased with a view to enhancing the participation of local contractors. In addition, there is a need for the Government to turn the 20 per cent sub-contracting pronouncement into law so that all principal contractors are bound by law to implement the pronouncement. The law should make it mandatory for the scope of works to be sub-contracted as specified in the bidding documents. The selection process of a sub-contractor should be transparent and supervised by the client or his/her agent and not left to the main contractor.

Mr Speaker, your Committee’s findings from the tour of Kenya are as follows:

(a)    the Kenyan Government has a National Youth Service which trains youths in all aspects of construction and the ones trained in construction are partnered with the national construction authority, a Kenyan body equivalent to our National Council for Construction;

(b)    the Kenyan Government has issued a policy to allow 30 per cent of the contracts obtained by foreign contractors to be sub-contracted to  all contractors;

(c)    foreign contractors in Kenya are mandated to provide a programme to the National Construction Authority on how skills will be transferred to the local sub-contractors; and

(d)    foreign contractors in Kenya are only allowed to undertake one project at a time.

Sir, in view of the foregoing, your Committee recommends that:

(a)    the Zambian Government increases the enrolment of youths in construction training institutions and ensure that the youths who are trained in these institutions are attached to various projects facilitated by the NCC;

(b)    the Zambian Government considers introducing a construction levy and also increase funding to the NCC to enable it conduct adequate research and build capacity of local contractors;

(c)    the Zambian Government increases the percentage that foreign contractors are mandated to sub-contract to local contractors from 20 per cent to 30 per cent; and

(d)    foreign contractors be mandated to provide a programme to the NCC on how skills will be transferred to the local sub-contractors.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the maintenance of Government buildings, your Committee observes that most of the Government buildings, especially in rural and peri-urban areas, are in bad condition, as routine and periodic maintenance is rarely carried out.

Sir, in this regard, your Committee implores the Government to expedite the process of developing the Maintenance Policy for Government buildings which, when approved by the Cabinet, will guide ministries, provinces and other spending agencies on how to ensure that all Government buildings are well maintained.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also urges the Government to address the outstanding issues that have been raised in the Action-taken Report for the Fourth Session of the Eleventh National Assembly.

Sir, I wish to conclude by thanking you for the guidance provided to your Committee during the session. I also wish to thank all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee. Last, but not the least, let me thank the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the support they rendered to your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, now.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to second the Motion on the Floor of the House. In seconding the Motion ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee, I wish to comment on a few that have been raised in your Committee’s report.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the construction industry in Zambia vis-à-vis the participation of local contractors, your Committee regrets to observe that the nature of the construction industry and the manner in which infrastructure services are being operated has created structural vulnerabilities that encourage corruption which is linked to weak governance in legal, regulation, policy and institutional capacity. Other ills of corruption include poor quality infrastructure, leading to high maintenance costs and a short lifespan of the physical infrastructure. The construction sector is fragmented. In some instances, separate contracts are signed with project participants such as design and engineering partnerships, professional surveyors, contractors, sub-contractors and suppliers of materials and components. In addition, your Committee was also informed that contracts in the construction industry are awarded to cadres who do not possess any relevant documentation.

Sir, in this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government undertakes urgent measures to transfer all the procurement of Government works and the supervision from all Government ministries back to the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication whose responsibility it was even before, in order to bring harmony and standardisation. This will result in reduced corruption in the awarding of contracts.

Sir, your Committee observes that the high bank interest rates that currently range between 20 to 30 per cent are a hindrance to the growth of local contractors. In this regard, the Government should facilitate a construction bank that will enable contractors to access loans at reduced interest rates.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that there is a perception of a lack of capacity among Zambian architects. As such, even the most basic of projects have been floated to foreign architectural companies. This has denied Zambian companies an opportunity to participate in the construction industry.

Sir, your Committee, is therefore, of the view that the Government should introduce a contractor-rating system which should be in the custody of the National Council for (Construction) NCC for all the sub-sectors in the construction industry that will rate local contractors according to their possible performance. This will enable contracting agencies to identify low-risk contractors for possible contract award, thereby minimising the perception that local contractors are poor performers.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that the definitions of the three citizen companies as provided in the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act No. 9 of 2006 and in the Public Procurement Act No. 12 of 2008 are different. Your Committee, therefore, urges the Government to ensure that the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act No. 9 of 2006 and the Public Procurement Act No. 12 of 2008 are harmonised so as to facilitate consistency in the definitions of citizen companies provided in the Acts.

Sir, with regard to the management and maintenance of Government buildings in Zambia, your Committee observes that lodges in provincial centres other than those on the line of rail have inadequate skilled maintenance personnel from the Buildings Department.

In this regard, your Committee strongly recommends that the Government ensures that adequate skilled personnel are recruited in the Buildings Department.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the foreign tour to Kenya, your Committee observed that the National Construction Authority in Kenya collects a Construction Levy of 5 per cent on all projects with a construction value of above 5 million shillings equivalent to K4.4 million, which is used to conduct research and capacity building for local contractors.

In view of this, your Committee strongly recommends that the Zambian Government considers introducing a construction levy and that there be increased funding to the NCC in order to enable it conduct adequate research and build capacity in local contractors.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the Chairperson of your Committee for the manner in which he presided over the affairs of your Committee during its deliberations and the session in general.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion for a well-thought-out report that has been presented to this august House.

Sir, in my deliberations, I would like to dwell on the issue of public assets, maintenance of public buildings and the need to retain the buildings. In my discourse, I am going to marry the powers of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, as an agent of the Government in the maintenance and preservation of Government buildings, and the need to protect Government infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, as I deliberate this Motion on the need to protect and maintain Government buildings, taking into account that councils are agents of the Central Government, I would like to quote, with your permission, Section 67(1) and (2) of the Local Government Act, which has not been repealed by this august House, and which is still in force. It reads:

“(1)    Subject to the provisions of this section, a council may sell, let or otherwise, dispose of any property of the council. Provided that, where the council intends to sell a council asset, the council shall, before conducting the sale, cause a valuation of the asset to be carried out by the department of the Government responsible for property valuations or by a valuer approved by the Minister.”

Sir, I would like to emphasise the part that reads:

“(2)    A council shall not sell, let for a period of fourteen years or more, or otherwise dispose of, any land or building except with the approval of the Minister.”

Mr Speaker, as we try to maintain these properties of the Government, it is incumbent upon the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to ensure that this law is maintained. There is no council that is authorised to sell any property or land without the approval of the hon. Minister …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was calling on the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, and other hon. Ministers of the Government, to ensure that Government properties are protected, maintained and not disposed of.
    
Sir, having quoted the provisions of the Local Government Act, which confer power on the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to give authority before a property is disposed of, I would like to call upon the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to protect Government property and ensure that the Looters’ Park in Libala is returned to the people of Zambia and be maintained so that our children in Libala, Kabwata and the surrounding areas can have a play park and enjoy the facility. I would also like to call upon the hon. Minister of Mines, Energy and Water Development to maintain the Lusaka Water Station Park in Woodland where the Lusaka Water Works are situation. We need those facilities to be maintained. We do not want to see a situation like what has happened.

Sir, the Government of the Republic of Zambia has spent a lot of money on the water works in Woodlands near State House. Instead of maintaining those facilities, the land has been subdivided, given to individuals and offer letters have been made.

Mr Speaker, the piece of land is adjacent to security installations. If we do not protect it, we are exposing the Head of State to danger. We are exposing the security of the nation to people who do certain things that are inimical to the interest of this country. Why should individuals be selling land that is supposed to be for public good for the benefit of getting money?

Mr Speaker, I challenge the hon. Ministers of Mines, Energy and Water Development and Local Government and Housing to ensure that the deed of title holders and foreigners who have bought land from councillors are not allowed to develop the pieces of land in the interest of Mother Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, the Government of the Republic of Zambia should maintain those facilities because that is where the major water works for Lusaka are situated, but we have allowed very few selfish individuals with a motive to make money to sell the piece of land.

Mr Speaker, I do not support the motive behind this. It is incumbent upon all of us, the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House who is the House and the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that the land in question is protected.

Sir, near that piece of land is a camp for the hon. Minister of Home Affairs’ officers who are guarding State House, and yet we have decided to sell it instead of maintaining it. People are jiving everyday because they have made money.

 Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am sorry, I withdraw the term “jiving”.

Sir, these people are celebrating for making money out of Government assets. We should not allow that. I, therefore, call upon the Government to show leadership and cancel all the offers of sale that were made.  We have copies of the letters of offer. Evidence is there and we know who were given land. This should not be allowed.

Mr Speaker, with those few words and the correction that I made pertaining to the statement made by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing that he has no power to authorise the sale of council property, I would like to rest my case.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mutelo (Lukulu West): Mr Speaker, in supporting this Motion, I will briefly debate on foreign and local contractors.

Sir, there is a problem in the awarding of contracts to foreign and local contractors. Like the seconder of the Motion stated, contracts are given to cadres instead of qualified people. This is the reason we end up with shoddy works.

Mr Speaker, you award contracts to local contractors who have no money and end up abandoning the works. I am not against local contractors. We should give them financial assistance and come up with laws that will protect them. If they are given the money, they will execute the works. However, if you award them contracts, but deny them the chances of borrowing money or put measures in place that make it difficult for them to access finances, we shall continue having shoddy works.

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Sir, local contractors get contracts, but if they fail to execute them, they sale the contracts to foreigners who become sub-contractors. The paper work is done by local contractors, but the actual works are done by foreign contractors. The foreign contractors get the money and, at the end of the day, Zambia will lose out because the money is externalised to foreign countries.

Sir, this is a cancer. The law stipulates that contracts worth K50,000 should be awarded to local contractors, but they are now being given to foreigners. So, where do the local contractors stand? Another problem that we have is that we award contracts to party cadres …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear, PF!

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, your report is saying that contracts are awarded to cadres. After that, they say, “kimasheleng’i ya Boma,” meaning this money is for the Government. They will not mind whether or not the work is done.

Sir, with regard to the bidding process, the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication is supposed to oversee it. The Road Development Agency (RDA) has been moved to State House from the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication. One man was in charge of overseeing the operations of the RDA and doing all the work that was supposed to be done by the Ministry of Works, Supply and Communication.

Hon. Opposition Members: Who is that man?

Laughter

Mr Mutelo: Mr Speaker, as stated in your Committee’s report, I hope this institution will be taken back to the right ministry. I wonder whether your reports are taken into consideration. Your Committees do their work, but it seems nothing is done about the issues that are raised in their reports.

Sir, I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to award contracts to the right people because this will help solve the problem of shoddy work. Let us put measures in place to empower local contractors and help them access funds. However, we should sensitive them that when they get the money, they should do the work. If we do not do that, we shall find ourselves repairing roads and buildings a year after construction.

Sir, there is also a need to monitor foreign contractors. If we continue using underhand methods to award contracts where those who award contracts expect to be paid for awarding certain contracts, we shall continue having shoddy works because the money meant for projects will not be enough as it will have been shared between the contractor and the person who awarded the contract. As a result, we shall always end up with semi-permanent structures

Sir, with those few words, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, I too, welcome the report that has been presented to this House this afternoon. I further welcome the statements from your Committee regarding the importance of giving work to local contractors. As many others have said, if contracts are not awarded to local contractors, the Government pays out the money, but it is externalised as is the case at the moment. If you move around town today, the cry from everyone is that there is no money in the economy in spite of the huge funds that have come through, and the explanation for this state of affairs is very clear. The money is paid to foreign contractors who import materials and equipment and then externalise the money. So, the multiplier effect on the economy is minimised. Therefore, no one can dispute the importance of supporting local contractors. However, the sad about this is the choice of local contractors that leaves much to be desired.

Sir, what we are seeing is that the Patriotic Front (PF) cadres are the ones being awarded contracts and, in many cases, the end result is disastrous.

Mr Sikazwe: Question!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, somebody shouted, “Question!” meaning that what I am saying is not true. So, I am going to give an example of what has happened in Liuwa in relation to this. These issues go beyond the operations of the Central Government operations up to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). In 2012, the construction of a school called Mulinga was supposed to be completed. The building was at wall-plate level and all that was required to complete it was a roof, door frames and windows.

Sir, K100 million, which is now equivalent to K100,000 was paid to a contractor to complete the structure. All that the contractor did was buy a few roofing sheets and nothing more has been done on that structure. If you think what I am saying is not accurate, you can call the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS) and District Commissioner (DC) in Kalabo and they will confirm it. In 2012, K100,000 disappeared.

Mr Sikazwe interjected.

Dr Musokotwane turned towards Mr Sikazwe.

Mr Speaker: You are still addressing me.

Dr Musokotwane: Yes, Mr Speaker. We chose to wait and see what the administration would do in a year, but nothing happened. We wrote a letter to the Council Secretary, informing him that K100,000 Government funds had been misappropriated and that the matter needed to be reported to the police so that the person responsible could be arrested. It has been three years since that happened and, as we speak now, the culprit has not been brought to book. Last year, we said people should not be punished for what they do not know, and so we got some additional funds from the CDF and channeled it towards this project so that the school could be completed. I should mention that we, politicians, either councillors or Members of Parliament, have no power to choose contractors. The law does not permit us. So, we decided to get K80,000 from the CDF to go towards the completion of the structure. However, another known PF contractor was awarded the contract to complete the project. We told the council secretariat that as far as we knew, that person had never constructed a single structure in his life. How, then, did the council give this person K80,000 to complete the structure when we could tell, from the beginning, what would happen? The council did not listen to us because, obviously, this contractor was from the Ruling Party. So, he was given the money to complete the structure for the second time. What happened was that the moment he got the money, he started plastering the walls but, when one rubs his/her finger on the walls, all that comes out is sand.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, what happened next will shock you. This PF contractor got the roofing sheets that had been bought by his previous colleague and sold them to the community and the teachers at the school. At this point, we said enough is enough. We went to the DC’s Office and told him that so far K180,000 had been misappropriated, and yet the school structure was at the same level. We asked the DC what the Government was going to do about that. To our shock, the PF contractor went and reported to the police that the community was interfering with his work and stopping him from selling the roofing sheets.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, the community gathered courage, mobilised itself and went to the police, and informed them that the person who had reported there earlier was the actual culprit. Currently, the community is up in arms against the PF contractor and the Government. What sort of Government is this where we go and report a clear case of theft of public money, but the culprits are not arrested and taken to court? He even had the audacity to steal the roofing sheets.

Mr Speaker, these are the situations that we experience. By the way, I reported this case that I am talking about to the hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education. Unfortunately, he is not here to confirm this. I told him that I was helpless since nothing had been done about the matter even after reporting it to the DC’s Office and the police. The hon. Minister of Education, Science, Vocational Training and Early Education, who is my colleague, said he had nothing to do with this and advised me to report to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. I can see the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing listening attentively. Hon. Minister, your officials …
Laughter

Mr Speaker: You are still addressing the Speaker.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister’s officials in the local councils are doing a lot of damage to this country. This is why, the other day, I was surprised that he is going to train the same people to manage the water scheme when they have failed to supervise the construction of classroom blocks. If I had my way, I would send the CDF directly to the constituencies instead of the council secretariat.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: We should not pretend that it is alright to continue channeling the CDF through councils when they are unable to implement projects and are busy …

Mr Hamududu: Stealing.
Dr Musokotwane: Somebody has whispered the word “stealing”, but I cannot use it because you will say that it is unparliamentary.

Laughter

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, as long as we continue to allocate funds to councils, this country will lag behind in terms of development. So, I urge the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to change the process so that the CDF is taken directly to schools, clinics and communities. That way, we are going to make progress.

Further, as the Ruling Party should not give preferential treatment to its cadres when it comes to the disbursement of public funds. Such an attitude will result in most projects for schools and clinics, for example, ending on paper. In other words, nothing will be happening on the ground.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to say that I support the initiative to empower local contractors because it is the right thing to do. However, I think that this Government must move away from thinking that empowerment is only for PF cadres. The right empowerment is for the people who can do the work. After all, if a cadre is given a project worth K80,000, only one person who is empowered. What about the hundreds of thousands of youths out there? Giving projects to cadres entails disempowering many youths and their communities.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Shamenda): Mr Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to thank your Committee for its comprehensive report. I would like to assure your Committee that the Ministry of Transport, Works, Supply and Communication will facilitate the implementation of the recommendations provided in this report, which are aimed at improving the delivery of service to the Zambian people.

Mr Speaker, in relation to the effectiveness of Government policy in facilitating the participation of local contractors, I wish to inform your Committee and the House that the Government is in the process of reviewing the National Council for Construction Act No. 13 of 2003 with a view to strengthening the provisions to ensure that the views presented by stakeholders on the participation of local contractors are enhanced.

In the interim, the National Council for Construction (NCC) has increased the promotion of joint ventures between local and foreign contractors. As a stopgap measure to increase the participation of local contractors in implementing this measure, the NCC is also supporting capacity building and transfer of skills to the local contractors to ensure that they graduate to being competent companies that can perform work within the region and beyond. Also incorporated in the training programmes are issues to address financial capacities and how the local contractors should prepare bankable projects.
Mr Speaker, on the management and maintenance of government buildings, I wish to inform the House that the ministry is in the process of developing a policy on maintenance to ensure that all ministries, provinces and spending agencies are guided in the maintenance and rehabilitation of their respective buildings. The proposal in the draft policy is that monies for the maintenance of Government buildings be channeled through my ministry.

Sir, in order to enhance the supervision of projects at national level, the Cabinet has directed that all technical staff at national and provincial levels establish infrastructure management teams to ensure a coordinated approach. These include engineers from the ministries responsible for local government and education, councils and the Road Development Agency (RDA). The measure is being implemented and is yielding positive results.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of implementing the private-public partnerships (PPPs) in infrastructure development, I wish to state that the ministry is actively pursuing this mode of financing as an alternative. To enhance the implementation of this approach, the Government is strengthening the PPPs Unit and is in the process of recruiting dedicated staff.

Mr Speaker, on railway infrastructure, I wish to inform the House that my ministry has taken note of the many recommendations and will pursue these through the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) and Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA). On the revision of TAZARA Act, the Governments of Tanzania and Zambia have prepared a Draft Revised Act which we will be tabled before the board and the Committee of hon. Ministers for consideration before it is presented to this august House. We expect this process to be concluded before the end of this year.

Mr Speaker, the ministry has engaged the Ministry of Finance in order to ensure that outstanding terminal benefits are paid to the former employees of the Railway Systems of Zambia (RSZ) and TAZARA. In order to improve the operations of TAZARA, a memorandum of understanding (MoU) has been signed with China Civil Engineering Construction Corporation to conduct a detailed feasibility study and finally commence construction of railway connections from Chipata via Petauke to the TAZARA in Mpika or Serenje.

Mr Speaker, the Government has also started the process of improving the staffing levels of TAZARA in order to improve its performance. The Government will soon employ a Managing Director for the company to enhance confidence in the industry.

I must mention that workers’ salaries continue to be a major challenge at TAZARA where the Government is still paying the workers’ salaries. The authority is currently operating below the breakeven point. TAZARA was directed to negotiate with the ZRL for an open access agreement so as to boost the service capacity on railway infrastructure and provide more confidence to the freight customers.

Mr Speaker, the Cabinet has approved new measures aimed at creating systematic way of managing and utilising Government vehicles. The Government is in the process of developing guidelines to facilitate the implementation of the directive from the Cabinet. This measure will include the sale of some vehicles to civil servants so that they are not only empowered with transport, but they also take full responsibility of the maintenance of the vehicles. I am convinced that this measure will address most of the issues that have been raised by your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the ministry is in the process of finalising the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill. The Government is aware of the concerns raised in relation to the Kafue/Mazabuka Road. Let me assure the House that the contract for the detailed design and construction supervision of the rehabilitation of the road has been awarded to a contractor.

Sir, the procurement of contractors to carry out rehabilitation works on 169 km of the Chingola/Solwezi Road has been completed and launched by His Excellency the President.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the setting up of a national airline is equally receiving active consideration, and we are consulting widely with various stakeholders to ensure that we set up a viable airline. We have also taken into account all the possible risks which have been raised.

Mr Speaker, some of the issues that have been raised are outside the ambit of my ministry. Once again, I wish to thank your Committee for the detailed report. Let me add that a detailed report on the progress made on the observations of your Committee has been circulated to the Members of your Committee.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, let me thank all those who debated and those who did not but listened. This is a non-controversial Motion which requires the support of every Member of Parliament.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

REPORT ON THE COMMITTEE OF ESTIMATES

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Estimates for the Fourth Session of the Eleventh National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 12th June, 2015.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, during the period under review, your Committee studied Zambia’s fiscal deficit and its impact on the economy. In line with its mandate of conducting budget tracking, your Committee reviewed Zambia’s utilisation of the US$750 million Sovereign Bond. Your Committee also undertook field-based oversight activities to various projects that received funding from the Eurobond.

Sir, submissions from various stakeholders, including the recent address to the House by the hon. Minister of Finance on the mid-term budget performance, paint a gloomy picture about Zambia’s fiscal situation. The increase in the fiscal deficit has corresponding adverse effects on Zambia’s debt stock. Although the debt sustainability analysis shows that the debt to gross domestic product (GDP) ratio is below the internationally accepted threshold of 40 per cent, your Committee is concerned about the rate at which the debt is increasing.

Sir, your Committee was informed that the main drivers of the deficit are highly-geared expenditure against lower-than-planned revenues. On the expenditure side, your Committee notes that the public sector wage bill carried an especially large weight in the deficit. For example, personal emoluments, as a share of GDP, reached 8.2 per cent of GDP in 2013, and rose to 11.1 per cent of GDP in 2014, following the untypically high wage adjustments for public sector workers. Public infrastructure, that is, the mainly unrealistically high investments in road infrastructure is another key driver which increased to 6.7 per cent of GDP in 2013, from 3.4 per cent of GDP in 2011. Further, the Government’s provision of fuel subsidies was another major driver of the deficit. Although there was no budget line for this, the Government spent K1.6 billion on fuel subsidies in 2013. This is projected to reach K3.2 billion in 2015.

Mr Speaker, your Committee was informed that the Government has continued to spend more than the approved budget on the Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP) and the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) strategic food reserves. During the 2013/2014 agricultural marketing season, the Government purchased more maize than the planned 500,000 metric tonnes for strategic reserves, thereby creating a strain on the Treasury. For example, the Government spent K1.1 billion against the budgeted K345 million.

Sir, on the revenue side, your Committee was informed that there has been notable underperformance in domestic revenue collection in recent years. In 2013, with the exception of the value added tax (VAT), all domestic taxes underperformed. However, the projected deficit would be higher if the outstanding input VAT refunds held by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) due to non-compliance to VAT rules on export verification were netted out of domestic revenues. Your Committee was informed that as at September, 2014, the figure for the refunds amounted to K4.3 billion or 2.6 per cent of GDP.

Sir, the challenges highlighted above call for urgent and robust interventions both in the short and long-term. It is in this regard that your Committee makes the following recommendations:

Expenditure Rationalisation

In order to achieve fiscal consolidation, your Committee recommends that the Government limits the public sector wage bill and streamline expenditures towards priority programmes. This would mean adhering to budgeted for expenditure on the FISP and maize marketing, ensuring cost reflective fuel pricing and rationalising capital expenditure.

Revenue Mobilisation Measures

Your Committee notes that increasing Government revenue was key in reducing the Budget deficit. The low tax revenue is, in part, due to tax exemption inefficiencies in tax administration and other tax challenges such as tax planning activities by multinational corporations. Therefore, your Committee recommends that the Government implements compressive tax reforms that would improve efficiency in tax administration, thereby increasing compliance. Your Committee also recommends the formalisation of the informal sector for inclusion in the tax net.

Public-Private Partnerships

Your Committee observes that public-private partnerships (PPPs) were a way of delivering and funding public services using a capital asset where project risks are shared between the public and private sectors. Although the Government has not fully implemented the PPPs, there is increasing interest in this financing modality in several national development strategies.

Sir, you may wish to note that restricting funding options to bonds only in the wake of declining concessional loans is very costly. In this regard, your Committee recommends that wide options such as PPPs be explored in filling the expenditure gaps.

Strengthening Investment Appraisal Systems

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that some of the projects being implemented by the Government have a low rate of return. It is, therefore, uneconomical to invest huge amounts of borrowed money in such projects. In order to be able to repay, it is the view of your Committee that comprehensive investment appraisals be conducted during selection of projects devoid of political expediency. I must emphasise that this should be supported by strict monitoring and evaluation of the utilisation of borrowed funds to ensure that selected projects generate sufficient capacity commensurate with servicing the respective debt obligations.

Mr Speaker, your Committee is concerned that the amount of VAT owed to exporters is actually what led to the reduction in the size of the 2014 Budget deficit. Stock of the unpaid VAT refund claimed was estimated to be K4.3 billion at the year’s end which was equal to half the size of the deficit.

Further, your Committee observes that the stringent requirements on values at refunds introduced in 2013 are counter to standard international practice, undermine investment climate and transform the VAT from its intended purpose of taxing consumption into a tax on exports. In this regard, your Committee recommends that the Government finds a lasting solution to the stand-off to ensure predictability of investment policies which will lead to renewed investor confidence.

Mr Speaker, your Committee visited various projects that received funds raised from the US$750 million Eurobond. It is deeply concerned about a number of projects across the country that have stalled as evidenced from the tour findings. The continued delay in the release of the funds will increase the costs through the accumulated interests. Since commitments have already been made, your Committee recommends that the Government takes stock of all outstanding payments with a view to liquidating them. In addition, more funds should be raised to complete the outstanding works in order to mitigate the costs of mobilisation and interest accumulations on certified works.

Mr Speaker, your Committee observes that the Inter-Mine Railway Connection Project funded from the Eurobond proceeds is a key project that is economically viable and may help to decongest and save the lifespan of roads on the Copperbelt. However, the Zambia Railways Limited (ZRL) does not have adequate funds for now to fully implement the project. In light of this, your Committee recommends that the Government, as matter of urgency, finds money to fully implement the project.

In conclusion, I wish to record your Committee’s indebtedness and gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for according them the opportunity to serve on your Committee. I also thank all the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee and contributed to its work.

Gratitude also goes to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the services rendered to your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Dr Scott: Now, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, it is a great honour and pleasure to be in this House and address you from many different directions, …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … depending upon the year and month. Only the fates know whether I shall, one day, address you from your left but, so far, we are there.

Mr Speaker, I put my support behind the proposer on every respect. I am not going to argue anything that he said or even endorse it. I just want to make one strong point. I was brought onto your Committee about halfway through its current cycle and was very surprised to find that important parts of the whole monetary and economic picture were missing.

The Bank of Zambia (BoZ), which is, roughly speaking, in charge of half the money in the country and makes policies that have fundamental effects on this economy, was not really a major witness and its goings on were not really a major part of our concerns.

Mr Speaker, economics is difficult because all the bits and pieces are joined to each other but, in the end, you have to try and make an effort to understand the whole picture and where the problems are coming from. It is a bit like taking water trying to distinguish the Indian Ocean and from the Atlantic Ocean but, if you draw water from one, it will also leak in from the other. You cannot say that we have fiscal issues and also have monetary issues, and can somehow separate them. So, I want to make a fundamental recommendation that should become part of our tradition on the terms of reference in your Committees. We must take the whole economic picture and consider the various issues that arise.

Mr Speaker, I want to talk about exports. It is very obvious, and many people have said that, if we had diversification, we would not have the sort of crisis that we are facing at the moment. This is about the most repeated simple statement in Zambia over the last years, but the truth of the matter is that we are taking measures through our Central Bank and the Ministry of Finance which are excluding and precluding people from diversifying.

Mr Speaker, the interest rate in this country, to all intents and purposes, is 30 per cent. The hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry would tell us, if she was in her other suit, that she can lend money to the Government at no effort or risk at all at 25 per cent. An ordinary Zambian or foreigner resident in Zambia wanting to take out a mortgage in order to build a house has to pay 25 to 30 per cent interest. No one can afford that.

Mr Speaker, raising the interest rates to try and stabilise the kwacha is also a cost to ordinary people. We keep raising it and pretending that we are bringing costs down on the other hand. There are so many of these complications.

I am glad that the hon. Minister of Finance is here. He and I worked together nearly forty years ago to try to get the wheat industry self-sufficient and export-oriented in Zambia. We managed to convince Dr Kenneth Kaunda that we needed our own exchange rate for wheat. We needed a competitive pricing for wheat and we were granted latitude. Let him deny it. It is true and he remembers that.

Laughter

Dr Scott: It is a long time ago, but he remembers that. Within years, we had broken the importation of wheat completely because we were sensible. We did not pretend that the interest rate is 25 per cent and that the value of the kwacha to the dollar is K7.3. We just allowed things to take their values. We did not pretend that we had a realistic control of issues.

I think that, really, we must bring this together. Economics is a difficult subject because everything is connected. Even if we take a simplified view of it, we must not get it wrong. It is easy to misunderstand things and get the numbers wrong and so on and so forth. We must have about the highest interest rates in the world and, at the same time, we are over-charging our manufactures of goods to go into the mines, manufactures of consumer goods and farmers. We are charging them much more than they need to be paying. We cannot even compete with foreigners on our own turf, without bringing non-tariff barriers in. It is the non-tariff barriers that keep the production of maize going, that keep wheat and anything at all going. I think that we have run ourselves into a situation where we are in trouble, but preventing ourselves from getting out of that trouble …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … by not being producer-oriented.  We say, “This is a country of consumers.”  You cannot be a country of consumers. You cannot be a country of importers. You can only be an importer or consumer when you have produced and sold. Otherwise, what are you going to be paying for your consumption? It is like the hon. Member for Kalomo Central feeding his cows on their own excreta and saying, “These are consumer-oriented cattle” …

Laughter

Dr Scott: … or something of that sort. It does not make any sense if you actually break it down. In summary, I think that as far as your Committee goes, I would say that we need to take a holistic view of the economic realities and, in running this country, we need to put ourselves on a competitive and productive basis as many other people have done, particularly the Chinese. So many other countries have managed to move from being a peasant-based economy to a middle- income economy, and the Chinese have managed to turn their country into the third largest economy in the world. They have managed to do that in ten or twelve years largely at our expense because we like saying, “Come and work in our country because you are cheaper than we are. So, we are going to give you the contract. Bring your katundu because it is cheaper than ours. We shall pay for it.”

Laughter

Dr Scott:  Mr Speaker, it is time we stopped this. I would like to invite Hon. Chikwanda to come any time and view the experiment that I am doing with Chinese crops such as the famous dragon fruit which you get in Beijing hotels for breakfast every morning, because I want to put them out of business, at least, in that area. It has been a long time since Hon. Chikwanda and I put anyone in this region out of business. So, we should start again and make sure that it is the Zambians who are in business.

I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, the submissions by your Committee and the subsequent submissions and observations by the hon. Members of Parliament have been so profoundly wise that I can only endorse what your Committee has said. We shall pay serious attention to the recommendations of your Committee and the anxieties expressed about borrowing.

Sir, as regards the exorbitant interest rates, yes, they are a drag on the economy. This is why we are seeking recourse to external borrowing so that we can tone down the interest factor on the borrowed resources which have to be repaid, anyway.

Mr Speaker, I thank your Committee for its submissions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to thank the House for this efficiency. Allow me to thank the members of your Committee for the support they have given me. I think that if we can work like your Committees at Parliament, then, we can achieve many things as a country.  There is so much harmony in your Committees and we work as a family. I do not know where the problem is when we become a larger group. When we travel around, we have the best interests of the country across political parties. It has been an honour for me to serve on your Committee that I have been privileged to chair for seven consecutive years. The last two years have been very special to me because the members of your Committee actually put me back in my position in absentia. Therefore, I am very grateful. I think that seven years is enough for me, I can now be an ordinary member of your Committee. I also thank the line hon. Minister for his open-door policy. As a Committee, we have had the privilege to visit the hon. Minister’s Office, and he has demonstrated how we must do things. He has demonstrated that we can discuss things without necessarily raising our voices. As a Committee, we are grateful for this.  He has taught us something very important, that is, we can consult across the political divide.

Mr Speaker, I also thank you and the Office of the Clerk for the advice you have given us over the years.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

__________

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (2013) BILL

The Minister of Finance (Mr Chikwanda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, following the approval of Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2013, which enabled the Government to carry out some of the essential operations that were not initially appropriated in the financial year which ended on 31st December, 2013, I was directed to return to this House with the necessary legislation to give effect to the resolutions of the House. The principle of the Bill before this House is to legalise the Supplementary Estimates of the monies aggregating K4,172,548,568 for the financial year ending 31st December, 2013.

Mr Speaker, as the hon. Members are aware, Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 2013 were thoroughly debated in this House at the material time. This Bill is straightforward, and I recommend it to the House accordingly.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 24th June, 2015.

THE EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION (2012) BILL, 2015

Mr Chikwanda: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members will recall that when the Public Accounts Committee was constituted on 27th September, 2013, it was mandated to review and make recommendations on all public financial matters relating to the Financial Year ending 31st December, 2012.

On 14th July, 2014, the House adopted the recommendations of the Public Accounts Committee to authorise the excess expenditure in the sum of K12,785,039.00. The object of this Bill, therefore, is to regularise the excess or unconstitutional expenditure incurred during that period.

Sir, the subject was extensively debated when the House considered the 2012 Financial Report, the 2012 Auditor-General’s Report and the 2012 Report of the Public Accounts Committee.

Mr Speaker, again, I am eternally indebted to the hon. Members of this august House for their kind and responsible consideration.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.  

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 24th June, 2015.

______

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE
 
(Debate resumed)

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mrs Mwanakatwe): I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker, I have studied, with a lot of interest, the Report of the Committee on Agriculture for the Fourth Session of the Eleventh National Assembly. Let me start by thanking your Committee for the elaborate work they did in coming up with a report on the fisheries sector. The report makes interesting reading with regard to the challenges and opportunities in the fisheries sector. I agree with most of the recommendations made by your Committee in the report.

Mr Speaker, the recommendations of your Committee are positive with regard to the development of the fisheries sector in the country. I wish to draw the attention of this House to the recommendations of your Committee with regard to the cost of doing business and the development of value chains in this subsector.

Mr Speaker, my ministry takes particular interest in the agriculture sector because of the numerous opportunities it presents in terms of job creation and income generation. In fact, more than 80 per cent of the value chains being targeted under our Industrialisation Programme being implemented through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), use agricultural raw materials.

Mr Speaker, the CEEC adopted a new strategy to achieve better economic empowerment and job creation through equitable industrialisation of all districts of the country whilst ensuring that 90 per cent of the empowerment funding goes to rural areas, 40 per cent to young people and, at least, 30 per cent to women.

Mr Speaker, through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund, we are supporting a number of interventions along the fish value chain. The House may wish to note that in 2013 and 2014, 342 projects in the fisheries sector in ten districts across the country were approved. A total of K21.6 million was disbursed, resulting in the creation of 1,710 jobs in these districts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: The supported districts included Kitwe, Mpulungu, Nchelenge, Rufunsa and Siavonga for 2013 while, in 2014, we supported projects in Chavuma, Chitambo, Kalulushi, Mwandi and Mwansabombwe.

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, in these districts, we are supporting more than one project. In Nchelenge for instance, forty-two projects have been funded for which a total of K4.5 million was disbursed during this period. The support covers the construction of fish ponds, cages for fish farming and the cold chain. This is consistent with the recommendation of your Committee that the Government invests in infrastructure that supports the sector so as to accelerate its growth.

Mr Speaker, it is the desire of this Government through the CEEC to further fund aquaculture projects in nine districts by 2016, including Ngabwe, Senanga, Chililabombwe, Zambezi, Chiengi, Chilubi, Kaputa, Luangwa and Kalabo. Through this intervention, the Government is expected to create 1,539 new sustainable rural jobs, translating into 171 jobs per district.

The districts funded in 2013 and 2014 and those that will be funded in 2015 and 2016 form part of the 2013 - 2016 Strategic Plan being implemented by the CEEC. In order to improve the monitoring of the projects, the CEEC has recruited credit control and risk officers in every province and the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock will provide technical assistance.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwanakatwe: Mr Speaker, in terms of reducing the cost of doing business in the sub-sector, the House may wish to note that the Government remains committed to the Private Sector Development Reform Programme and our ambitious agenda to make this country a business hub in the region. My ministry, working in collaboration with line ministries such as the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, is reviewing legislation in order to streamline licences and licensing procedures. The objective is to ensure that the regulatory framework governing various sectors such as the fisheries sector does not impose an unnecessary burden on our people in terms of cost and procedure.

Mr Speaker, we are also making progress in implementing the Regulatory Impact Analysis System that will ensure that every new regulation is subjected to regulatory impact assessment to ascertain its impact on businesses. In this regard, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry has reached an advanced stage in operationalising the Business Regulatory Review Agency. This is how the Government is addressing the concerns of your Committee with regard to levies on aquaculture.

Sir, in conclusion, the Government remains committed to the development of the agriculture sector and the fisheries subsector. We see it as an avenue for job and wealth creation. As I have demonstrated, we are paying close attention to the development of the sector through various interventions and we will continue to invest in the development of the sector.
I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock (Mr Lubinda): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to comment on the Report of your Committee on Agriculture presented to this House on Friday 19th June.

Sir, as I am taking the Floor for the very first time since the start of this sitting, allow me, on behalf of the noble people of Kabwata Constituency, the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock and, indeed, my own behalf, to register to you and the family, condolences on the demise of Hon. Matafwali.

Mr Speaker, please, allow me to congratulate Hon. Kapembwa Simbao and Hon. Katambo on making the important decision to join the most progressive party in Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Belenga chabe.

Mr Lubinda: Their bold decisions have already started to pay dividends, as can be seen from the way they retained their parliamentary seats. In similar vein, let me congratulate my brother and colleague, Hon. Sichalwe on winning the Chawama Parliamentary seat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I am confident that the three colleagues will add value to this House as well as the Patriotic Front (PF).

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, allow me now to commend the Chairperson of your Committee for the manner in which he presented the report, as well as for his personal interest in matters concerning the agriculture sector of our country. He has demonstrated his personal interest by responding positively to all our invitations for him to participate in interventions in the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock. We thank him for that.

Mr Speaker, the seconder equally deserves commendation. However, what is more is that your entire Committee deserves tribute for a very well-researched and well-written report.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The report has highlighted salient issues that affect the agriculture sector of Zambia in general and the fisheries subsector in particular. The situation analysis of the fisheries subsector in Zambia and how it relates to the regional and global situation is very informative. Your Committee highlighted a number of challenges that beset the fisheries subsector, ranging from policy issues to enforcement and implementation.

Sir, one of the striking issues raised by your Committee is the rapid depletion of fish stocks in our natural water bodies. The second is the consequential reduction in the intake of fish protein by the citizens. It is the Government’s concern and, indeed it should be every citizen’s concern, that, with the immense water resources of more than 20 million hectares of natural water bodies which should support the production of large quantities of fish in a sustainable manner, the intake of fish in Zambia is as low as 7 kg per capita, having declined from 12.5 per capita in 1980.

Mr Speaker, it is for this reason that the Government, through the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock, has received your Committee’s report with gratitude. I would like to assure the House and your Committee that we shall study all the findings of your Committee and analyse all the recommendations with the commitment of implementing all those that we shall find achievable.

Sir, the PF Government’s commitment to growing the fisheries subsector can be illustrated by the numerous interventions that have already been undertaken to increase fish production. Gladly, some of them been ably reflected in the report while others have just been reported upon by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

Mr Speaker, the Government is pleased that the interventions have already started yielding the intended results, as can be seen from the growing number of private players in aquaculture. To this end, the Government hereby commends the various large and small-scale fish farmers such as Capital Fisheries, Mpende Fisheries, Kariba Harvest, Palabana Fisheries, Yalelo Fisheries and many others …

Mr Sikazwe: Yalelo?

Mr Lubinda: … who are leading the way in this sector. We are also pleased with the decision by the fish farmers to create the Aquaculture Development Association of Zambia. We are committed to partnering with the association and all other private sector think tanks such as the Indaba Agriculture Research Institute, to find avenues for translating potential into reality.

Sir, the report is timely as it comes at a time when the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock is in the process of finalising the Fisheries Development Policy which should address the challenges presented in your Committee’s report. As we approach the finalisation of the policy, we shall certainly engage various stakeholders, including your Committee.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We are desirous of releasing a policy document that is as broad based and as inclusive as possible.

Mr Speaker, with your permission, I shall present a ministerial statement on the way forward with regard to the fisheries subsector.

Sir, before I move to part three of the report, which is to do with the Action-taken Reports of the Second and Third Sessions of the Eleventh National Assembly, let me comment on some of the submissions made by some of the hon. Members who commented on the main subject of your Committee’s report, which is the fisheries subsector.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Dr Musokotwane lamented that we are not doing anything to exploit the potential of the fisheries subsector. While the rate at which we are exploiting the potential of our fisheries is not as high as it should be, it is not accurate to allege that we are doing nothing about it. I have no doubt that had Hon. Dr Musokotwane not been driven by the desire to downplay the Government’s investment in this sector, he should have referred this House to paragraph 4 on Page 6 of the report, which states:

“Zambia’s aquaculture fish production had, however, significantly grown in the last two decades. From a total production of only 5,000 tonnes of fish per annum in 2006, the country produced about 20,000 tonnes in 2013. The increase was mainly due to rapid adoption of cage fish farming, which was a high intensive system. Furthermore, the emerging of the private sector in fish seed and feed production had been a catalyst in the up-scaling of fish production in Zambia. The demand for fish had also been an attractant to investment in aquaculture.”

Sir, your Committee demonstrated, in this report, that unlike what was alleged that there is nothing being done in the fish industry, this Government and the people of Zambia are investing quite a lot and results are being seen by all, including Hon. Dr Musokotwane.  

Mr Speaker, secondly, Hon. Dr Musokotwane repeatedly alleged that the PF campaigned that, as the Government, it would not impose a fish ban and that, as a result of this, there has been non-compliance of the fish ban by our citizens. Far from that, not a single leader from the PF could have made such a pronouncement because that could have been in serious conflict with what is stated in its Party Manifesto. I have no doubt, again, that Hon. Dr Musokotwane is cognisant of the fact that a manifesto is what the party is held accountable to. For the sake of Hon. Dr Musokotwane, page 18 of the PF Manifesto states as follows:

“The biggest problem with wild fisheries is lack of policing and thus, a tragedy of the commons of over fishing, giving rise to rapid depletion of the fish population and fish species to where it cannot recover its full glory. This had led to high poverty levels and diminished household food security. Again, with the blossoming of real and strong local Government involving traditional authorities and Government expertise, the Government would aim to turn this situation around.”

Mr Speaker, it is clear that the PF Manifesto wishes to ensure that we police the fish ban and not a single member of the PF would have stated as Hon. Dr Musokotwane tried to make the country believe that we are a Government that is reckless and that ignores the fish ban.
Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, it the manifesto that has inspired this Government to seek ways and means of curbing the rising practice of illegal fishing. I wish to seek your permission to implore all hon. Members of Parliament across the political divide to join the Government in creating awareness among our people on the negative impact that such practices have on our fisheries subsector.

Sir, I am afraid Hon. Mucheleka is not in the House today. He has revealed that he is a fish farmer. For this, I wish to include the Mucheleka Fish Farm on the list of fish farmers that I commended. I wish him well in his undertakings. I also wish to advise him to be in constant touch with our extension officers for expert advice on fish farming. It is in our interest to make sure that all fish farmers produce profitably and productively.

Mr Speaker, I agree with Hon. Mucheleka that we need to coordinate the fish bans with other riparian States if the bans are to have an impact on the replenishment of fish in our natural water bodies. We shall certainly take that on board.

Sir, Hon. Mucheleka also lamented Zambia’s importation of large quantities of fish and he seemed to be proposing a ban on the importation of fish. The Government is not convinced that when there is a deficit of 45,000 metric tonnes of fish in Zambia, we should ban the importation of fish. I wish to remind the House that because of this deficit, Zambia’s fish consumption is a meagre 7 kg per capita when other countries in a similar economic bracket as Zambia are consuming as much as 15 kg per capita. Based on this, and driven by the desire to support the population to increase its protein intake, the Government is not ready to ban the importation of fish. Unlike others, the Government is committed to improving the nutrition status and living standards of its people. We can only consider that option when we see that the imports are negatively impacting on local production. I am sure that everyone is aware that we are not shy on imposing import restrictions to protect our infant industry, including farming. The deficit of 45,000 metric tonnes of fish in Zambia and more than 200,000 metric tonnes in the sub-region should motivate increased investment in fish farming. The business is certainly lucrative.

Mr Speaker, the concerns of lack of policing, limited investment in fisheries and limited fisheries extension officers raised by Hon. Raymond Mpundu are well taken. I wish to inform the House that the ministry is currently recruiting 500 extension officers 115 of whom shall be fisheries extension officers. As I said earlier, I shall, in due course, present the various investment portfolios in the fisheries subsector that the Government is managing. This is obviously inclusive of the investment through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund which, my colleague the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, referred to earlier.

Sir, in moving to the third part of your Committee’s report, let me start by correcting an impression created by the seconder of the report that the Executive lacks seriousness in its perception of Parliament’s oversight role. He stated that all questions go unanswered. Going by this report, one can discern the fact that all the issues that had been stated to have arisen from Action-taken Reports are not to do with the non-provision of answers by the Executive. On the contrary, they are your Committee’s requests for updates and progress reports on the various programmes and projects that the Executive responded to. Your Committee could not have asked for updates unless the Executive provided information as is required in the first place. I want to assure my colleague and this House that the Government considers Parliament’s oversight role as a significant ingredient of good governance, and this is totally inescapable. We shall continue to avail ourselves to Parliament’s incisive scrutiny because, as the Government, we owe it to the Zambian people to explain to them, through their Parliament, how we are handling matters on their behalf and in their interest.

Sir, the Government is the first to recognise the need for diversifying the agriculture sector. We, indeed, ought to move from being a “maize-centric” agriculture sector. As soon as the Cabinet approves this, I shall seek your permission to come and present to the House our plans on diversification, particularly with regard to the famous Farmer Input Support Programme (FISP). In the same vein, I shall be reporting to the House on the status of the Livestock Development Policy, the Agricultural Marketing Act and other related policies and legislation.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the issue of boards, which was raised in your Committee’s report that all boards and trusts under the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock have since been dissolved, new ones shall be announced as soon as the Cabinet approves them.

Sir, in conclusion, let me allay the fears expressed by Hon. Dr Musokotwane …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … that some people in Zambia shall go hungry because of the decline in maize production. On the contrary, there is enough maize for local consumption with an excess of 800,000 metric tonnes available for export.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: His Excellency the President, Her Honour the Vice-President and various Ministers have stated this fact. I have also urged all those who are faced with looming shortages of maize to report to the District Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) for food relief to be delivered.

We had also asked hon. Members of Parliament to take a keen interest in this matter and bring it to the attention of the Government. I would, therefore, like to commend many hon. Members of Parliament from either side of the House who have brought this matter to the attention of the Government either through the Ministry of Agriculture and Livestock or the Office of Her Honour the Vice-President.
        
Sir, I wish to state that since we are a responsible Government, the DMMU has already transported sufficient food relief to districts, including those in the Western Province. Therefore, I would like to assure Hon. Dr Musokotwane …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … that the people of Liuwa …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … shall not starve.

Mr Ng’onga: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: At least, not this year, …

Dr Musokotwane: They are already starving.

Mr Lubinda: … and not under the PF Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Finally, Sir, I would like to conclude by saying that the victories recorded by the PF in the elections that brought Hon. Simbao, Hon. Katambo and Hon. Sichalwe into this House are testimony to the approval of the Zambian people of the Government’s programmes. No doubt these will inspire the people of Mulobezi, Petauke and Malambo …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … to give the PF resounding confirmation as a party of today and tomorrow …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … under the leadership of President Edgar Lungu.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lombanya (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, I wish to acknowledge and thank all the hon. Members who have debated in support of this Motion. From the various contributions and sentiments expressed, it is obvious that we have all agreed that agriculture as a sector has been relegated, for a long time, to the tail end of our national economy. We are all agreed that the onus is on us to facilitate measures that will stimulate growth in the sector for the benefit of our country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Question put and agreed to.

Mr Speaker: Order!

ADJOURNMENT
    
The Minister of Justice (Dr Simbyakula): Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.    

___________

The House adjourned at 1809 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 24th June, 2015.