DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 8th February, 2001

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

QUESTIONS

CHIEFS’ PALACES - EASTERN PROVINCE

6. Ms Malama (Chipata) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

    (a)    which Chiefs’ palaces were rehabilitated in the Eastern Province,         district by district, as at 31st October, 2000;

    (b)    what kind of rehabilitation works were done to those palaces;         and

    (c)    when will the House of Chiefs be functional.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musonda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that no Chiefs’ palaces were rehabilitated in the Eastern Province as at 31st October; 2000.

Question (b)     falls away because of the answer in above.

(c)     I wish to inform this House that the Provincial Council of Chiefs will be held as soon as the rainy season is over to enable all Chiefs travel to their respective provincial centres and elect three representatives to the House of Chiefs. We could not do this last year because of logistical problems.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Malama: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Chiefs in Eastern Province are living in very deplorable conditions and their palaces are not up to date.

Mr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I am aware, in fact, in this year’s Yellow Book on page 153, we have provided K153 million for minor works.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Deputy Minister tell this House and the nation at large when he thinks the House of Chiefs will be opened.

Mr Musonda: Mr Speaker, the first things first, as I said in my answer, we have to have elected representatives, three from each province done. That is the first step, Sir.

I thank you, Sir.

MULAKUPIKWA POLICE TRAINING COLLEGE PROJECT

7. Mr Kapangalwendo (Chinsali) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

    (a)    why the Mulakupikwa Police Training College project has been         abandoned; and

    (b)    whether there are any plans to hand-over the buildings to         either the Ministry of Education or the Ministry of Health.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Hatembo): Mr Speaker, the apparent abandonment of the Chinsali Combined Police College in Chief Mulakupikwa area has been occasioned by inadequate funding.

The Government’s decision has been to hand over the college to the Ministry of Education.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapangalwendo: Mr Speaker, due to the fact that the premises are badly vandalised, can the hon. Minister indicate when they will hand over this project to the Ministry of Education.

Mr Hatembo: Mr Speaker, the issue is in the hands of Cabinet.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

DECEASED TEACHERS

8. Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali) asked the Minister of Education:

    (a)    how many serving teachers died between January 1996 and         December, 2000;

    (b)    how many have had their benefits paid; and

    (c)    how much is required to pay those that have not yet been paid.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Mmembe): Mr Speaker, there is a total of 3,832 serving teachers who died between January, 1996 and December, 2000.

In answer to parts (b) and (c), we are liaising with Pensions Board to determine the actual number of teachers who have had their benefits paid and the amount of money required to pay those that have not yet been paid.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, from what the hon. Deputy Minister has said that he is not able to give the answer. Now, these questions are given a number of good days before the hon. Minister answers them here. Could he indicate the number exactly for us to find out what is there. So, for him to say he is not able to give it now, I think that is not right. Can he indicate the exact number of those who have not been paid.

The Minister of Education (Brigadier-General Miyanda): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member knows that the question is not under the portfolio of the Ministry of Education.

Thank you, Sir.

DREDGED DAMS

9. Mr C. Ngulube (Lundazi) asked the Minister of Energy and Water development when dams in Lundazi District will be dredged.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Saviye): Mr Speaker, Sir, my ministry has annual programmes for the rehabilitation and construction of dams for the whole country. Annually funds are budgeted for under capital funding. The question raised in respect of Lundazi dams with regard to dredging fits well under these programmes. However, Mr Speaker, my ministry has not received capital funding for these programmes in many years.

For instance, in the year 2000, a budgetary provision of K825,900,000 was made, but no funds were available for my ministry to execute the programmes. In the year 2001, a provision of K7,203,960,000 has again been made. If these funds are made available, my ministry will carry out assessments of dams in the country including Lundazi to determine the extent of dredging to be done and also a general maintenance required and thereafter proceed with the execution.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Ngulube: Mr Speaker, what agent measures would he put in place because dams like Sambwa, Lundazi Mwase Dam, Lundazi Boma Dam, Mukomba, Vuwu, Mmembe, Luwambwa etc. have all been damaged by these water lilies and water weeds.

Mr Saviye: Mr Speaker, yesterday, I hope the hon. Member was be able to recall, when I was debating my ministry, I said that we have a monitoring system that is carried out all the time and if we see that there is a danger, emergency measures would be carried out. But I have not received any emergency that actually requires such an attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister, please, explain as to why the money that was approved by Parliament during the 2000 Budget debate was not released and what assurance will Parliament have when we discuss this year’s Budget that it will be approved and released.

Mr Saviye: I thank you, Sir, I hope the hon. Member for Lusaka Central is aware that I do not control the Treasury.

I thank you, Sir.

MEDICAL TREATMENT ABROAD

10. Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East) asked the Minister of Health:

    (a)    how many Zambians were sent by the Government to         South Africa and Zimbabwe for medical treatment             between October, 1997 and October, 2000, year by year;         and

    (b)    how many of the patients in (a) above died in the foreign         hospitals.

The Vice-President:  Mr Speaker, the following are the Zambian patients who were sent by Government to South Africa and Zimbabwe for medical treatment between October 1997 and October, 2000 year by year.

    1997    56 patients were sent to South Africa
    1998    78 patients were sent to South Africa
    1998    42 patients were sent to Zimbabwe
    1999    37 patients were sent to South Africa
    1999    31 patients were sent to Zimbabwe
    2000    12 patients were sent to South Africa
    2000    04 patients were sent to Zimbabwe

Mr Speaker, two patients died in Zimbabwe and four patients died in South Africa between October 1997 and October, 2000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Keembe (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that there is now pressure from the South African Government and other NGOs to ban patients from Zambia from going into that country and, indeed, to improve our own health services in this country.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is no such a thing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, I am very positive that His Honour the Vice-President does not have the figures as to what ailments most of these people were suffering from. Now, I would like to know from him what measures the Government is putting in place to improve the health facilities in Zambia.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I do not have the details on the actual ailments because those details were not asked for. If his question had wanted to know the ailments, that information would have been provided. There is, Sir, a general improvement on the medical services and certain hospitals in the country are being targeted to perform the type of operations and other work done in South Africa. But, I think it is a bit premature for me to go into details as to which hospital is going to do what.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr T. J, C. Phiri (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, can His Honour the Vice-President confirm that the Ministry of Health will soon receive 72 Ambulances to be distributed to all districts in the country.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I did hear that announcement on the radio and I have asked the hon. Minister for Southern Province to come and see me because basically it is inaccurate.

Dr Kamata (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, could I learn from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government ever considers working hand in hand with the mines which run some of the hospitals in the country in order to purchase some of the medical equipment lacking in the country and that with their financial help, the Government, together with the mines might purchase this equipment which make us send our patients to South Africa.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for that question. Yes, I think the ministry is working hand in hand with the mining companies but the hon. Member is himself a medical officer and it would be good of him to indicate which areas he thinks we should negotiate with the mining companies so that we can buy this equipment. I will be waiting for his contribution in that regard.

Laughter.

Mr Kapangalwendo: Mr Speaker, ....

Mr Hamir: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamir: Mr Speaker, I am a very worried MMD-born Member of Parliament and I am also a cadre of the MMD. Sir, when I look at the Front Bench, there are so many hon. Ministers missing from the House. Another thing is that the hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries (Mr Desai) is always in the wrong seat talking to other Ministers. Sir, this is the year 2001 and we would like the House to be full because we are now nearing the Presidential and Parliamentary Elections and we do not want people who are just sleeping. We want the MMD to win the elections again.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Serenje is raising a point of order to the effect that he sees vacancies on the ministerial benches. The Chair has done a very quick calculation and has determined that more than 50 per cent of the Cabinet is here and that is, indeed, a very good quorum in as far as the Cabinet Bench is concerned. As for the rest of the House, we have more than the necessary quorum to conduct the business of the House. With regard to the other aspects of the point of order, that, indeed, rests with the hon. Member’s political party as he says, he is a political or party cadre. May the hon. Member for Chinsali, continue, please.

Mr Kapangalwendo: Mr Speaker, may I know what criteria are used to send patients abroad due to the fact that some patients have been on the waiting list as far back as one year.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the criteria are many but I think the two most important ones are the condition of the patient. Some patients are in a much worse condition than others and so, obviously the ones in a much worse condition are given first priority. The other is availability of funds. We cannot send people to South Africa if there are no funds. There is a queue, it is true and as I said, once funds are made available, they will be looked at. Another important thing is that we are trying to organise our medical facilities so that most of the patients can be treated here.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, may I find out from His Honour the Vice-President what makes the Government of Zambia send some patients out of the country and leave other Zambians to die in corridors without being attended to.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member was listening, he would have heard me say that it depends on the condition of the patient. Not all cases have to be sent to South Africa. In fact, if you look at the figures, you will find that it is a very small percentage of patients who are sent to South Africa. If there are any cases of people dying in corridors, then he should bring that to our attention and we will be able to look at it.

Thank you, Sir.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
in the Chair]

Vote 14/01 - (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development - Geological Survey Department - K1,66,70,577).

(Debate Resumed)

Mr Sichinga (Isoka East): Mr Chairman, before we adjourned yesterday, I had made a number of points regarding this particular ministry’s Vote. In particular, I did allude to a number of issues, including that of proceeds from the sale of emeralds and other semi-precious stones. I had made a point that, in my opinion and drawing from my experience of working for ZCCM, the area of emeralds and other semi-precious stones are capable of providing more foreign currency than copper itself.

I, therefore, was suggesting to the ministry that now that they have diversity of the mines, it would be prudent for them to work out mechanisms by which there would be full accountability of the proceeds from the sale of emeralds and other semi-precious stones and that this would help the falling reserves of the Bank of Zambia, in terms of foreign currency.

Mr Chairman, I also mentioned the issue of the reports that had been promised by the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development regarding the allegedly missing US$150 million of cobalt sales. I was saying that these reports which he said were awaiting an audit report were eagerly awaited by this House so that they can put to rest this particular issue.

Mr Chairman, I then went on to raise the point that is under debate at the moment that the President has initiated pertaining to the problem of accounting for earnings of foreign currency by companies operating in Zambia. I was making a point, Sir, that the major foreign exchange earners were the mining companies. In view of the current regulations, there is no requirement whatsoever, for any company working in Zambia to bring back foreign currency and that any arrangements that are outside the ambit of law, are likely to fail.

I was, therefore, urging the Government and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development together with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to work out mechanisms by which this could be incorporated into a law which can be brought to this House to be discussed and agreed upon and then enacted into full law so that this is governed by a proper Act of Parliament rather than by special arrangements that are not covered by law.

Mr Chairman, I was making a point that the major mining companies have been given exemptions from a number of financial commitments. Yesterday, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central Constituency, Mr Patel, had made reference to 20 years of exemptions from paying certain charges, including a particular level of royalties that these had been deliberately reduced for the mining companies.

He also made the point about electricity that the rest of us in this country are subsidising the mines. I think it is proper that the Government collectively, re-examine this issue that we should not, as Zambians and ordinary citizens, be expected to be subsidising the mining companies.

Mr Chairman, I wish to move on to another point that is of concern to me. This is the issue of a statement that had been alluded to one of the mines manager who said that their company had been unable to attract back Zambian experts in the mining field. Sir, I have grave difficulties understanding this because I know that many Zambians would like to work here at home, but I am almost certain that the reason for this is that Zambian salaries are always lower than those of their expatriate counterparts. Many of these Zambians that are working oversees are earning salaries at expert level in the countries in which they are operating. There is no way they will return to Zambia unless they are offered comparable salaries.

Sir, I think it is important that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development works in collaboration with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to ensure that Zambians are brought back home because that is the surest way by which we can develop a more sustainable situation than having to rely on expatriates.

Mr Chairman, the next point is that now that the mines have been divested as far as the Government is concerned, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to start working very closely with his colleague in the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to start developing industries that add value to the basic product, copper. 

I this vein, Mr Chairman, I am thinking of such industries as ZAMEFA. At the moment, the bulk of the production of copper goes outside the country as raw copper. That is metal. This is, therefore subjected to all the vulnerable and changes of prices on the stock markets. I think it is important that the country starts looking at ways by which we can attract foreign investment in collaboration with the Zambian Government to ensure that the raw copper is processed into semi-finished and finished products which Zambia is, in fact, at the moment, having to import.

Mr Chairman, another point that the President alluded to, in his speech to the House, was the issue of creating a follow-up organisation after the privatisation of the mines to ensure that the regulations and agreements that have been reached with these new owners are followed-up.

I dare say, Mr Chairman, that there is already such an organisation in form of Zambia Privatisation Agency. The Act creating Zambia Privatisation Agency quite clearly states that it is their responsibility to follow-up on these agreements and ensure that they are complied with.

Therefore, I would like to advise the Government that in my opinion, there will be no need to create another organisation when, in fact, the Zambia Privatisation Agency already exists and I do believe and sincerely hope that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development will ensure that those agreements are complied with. As one that has worked for the mining industry, I am aware that after the nationalisation of ZCCM or its predecessors, it was found that there were very poor mining developments. This is important because that is the only way that you can show that there are adequate exploitable reserves that are available to the country and to take advantage of any changes in prices, especially when prices go up.

Mr Chairman, it is my sincere hope that other statements that were made by previous subscribers are on the damage that the movement of ore has caused to the Copperbelt roads. Now, I know that
this is not the portfolio of the Ministry of Mines. I think that it is important that he can work with his colleague in Communications and Transport where there is my able sister, Professor Luo, to see that there is greater use made of the railways on the Copperbelt than the roads. There is so much damage done now because of the weight of copper ores that are moved between various places.

The last point, Sir, is that of the management of former mine townships. Yesterday, Hon. Chilombo alluded to the problems of the quality of services as well as the maintenance of roads in these areas. Now, with the privatisation that has taken place, this is no longer the responsibility of the mining companies. But I do think that it is essential that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development works with the local councils to ensure that the transfer of this responsibility is orderly and does not create gaps in the provision of adequate services.{mospagebreak}

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi West): Mr Chairman, thank you for allowing me to contribute.

Mr Chairman, mine is very short.

Laughter.

Mr Sata: How short and how many centimetres?

Laughter.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, I cannot answer the hon. Minister Without Portfolio because I am married to his sister. It is not as short as he thinks.

Mr Chairman, I wanted to make some comments on Kansanshi Mine. If I remember correctly, three years ago, Hon. Mwitwa stood and told this House that the mines were sold for a song. The reaction was negative meaning that he was told the Government sold it at a very good price.

Sir, I know that in your political career, you have been to Kansanshi Mine - if I am not mistaken. If you ever reached Kansanshi Mine, you might have seen a lot of houses, a big clinic, a school which had more than a thousand pupils and so on. When the Government sold the mine to Cyprus Amax, the first thing that the people of Solwezi saw were bull-dozers to erase all the buildings. Up to today, what is there is grass. This is making all politicians from North Western Province like the Cabinet Minister we have in the province - who actually married from Solwezi; Hon. Mateyo who just comes from a village which is less than a kilometre to Kansanshi Mine; Hon. Dr Sondashi - whose Chief Kapijipanga and his home are just next to Kansanshi Mine; and ourselves, in Solwezi Central, fail to tell the people what is happening. When my brother-in-law, Hon. Sata, was in Solwezi last year, he told the people that they should not listen to me because the mine would be operational. I am sure at that rally, Hon. Mateyo was present and he would bear me witness. The following week, Sir, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development reinforced that declaration.

As I speak to you, Sir, the people are very happy that the Republican President will be in North Western Province this weekend so as to hear ...

Mr Sata: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order, Sir.

Mr Sata: Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West, who is my brother-in-law, in order to stand up and lament like that in this House when in actual fact in that same position, he said the Government should hand over the mines to the owners who know how to do it? 

The Deputy Chairman: In that point of order by the hon. Minister Without Portfolio, the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West is being reminded not to actually defeat his own previous argument when he had wished that mines be handed over to private investment. But if there is any specific concern that he wants to raise, now, which still requires the Government to be involved in, perhaps, the hon. Minister Without Portfolio will at a later stage take the Floor and be able to clarify those points so that the House gets the benefits of his explanation. So far, he is in order.

Will he, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, thank you for the ruling. I know he is going to reply.

Mr Chairman, the people of Solwezi are very happy to hear that the Republican President will be going there next weekend to open an MMD Convention or something like a meeting. Hon. Sata will be going there to officially close the conference. Obviously, as the people sing the ‘Third Term’ slogan, they are requesting that when these two senior MMD go to North Western Province and Solwezi in particular - unless you change the venue - if you still want to be in power this year, they would want you to answer the question: when is Kansanshi going to be operational? If the answer is not given to the people of Solwezi, it would be very difficult for Hon. Mateyo even to stand in Solwezi as a Member of Parliament.

So, Mr Chairman, we would want you really as we listen to our colleagues in the Front Bench to come out. Kansanshi was the first mining industry, I think, in Zambia. For it to be in the state in which it is, surely, it will make all the politicians from North Western Province very unpopular. I would not want to say a lot of things because I know the Front Bench have understood my points and I will be waiting to hear from them how they are going to answer this question. Otherwise, it would be a political game as we go into November.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chipili (Kamfinsa): I rise to support the Vote under discussion. In doing so, I would also like to raise a few concerns.

Mr Chairman, the privatisation era is the most crucial one if we have to make any progress. We need to have standards in the way we deal with our new partners. There are a few concerns that I would like the ministry to look at. There is a question of title deeds. These title deeds are ...

Major Kamanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Major Kamanga: Mr Chairman, just yesterday, the hon. Minister of Education was telling us the number of absenteeism amongst children, especially in Luapula and Northern provinces. Within the House here, there is an hon. Member of Parliament who is from Luapula and is wearing school shoes called toughees. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Nchanga (Dr Kamata) in order to be wearing toughees which are supposed to be given to his children? I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter.

The Chairman: The point of order raised by the hon. Member for Lumezi is based on the formal attire acceptable by parliamentary standards. And since the Chair is cannot see the feet of the hon. Member for Nchanga, the Chair is in a very awkward position indeed. But I notice that the Sergeant-at-Arms had been there already, to inspect and since he has made no signals, I take it that the attire is acceptable.

Will the hon. Member for Kamfinsa continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipili: Mr Chairman, before I was interrupted by the point of order, I was advancing a point that the issue of title deeds must be sorted out. When the presidential order came to empower the miners to purchase houses, they did so. Now, in turn, this has created a problem to the city councils and municipalities because they cannot charge rates on a block title deed. What I am saying is, for example, Kitwe was taken like a farm where all houses are on one title deed. This has put the council in a predicament. They cannot levy on one title deed. This must be divided into proper title deeds. I think this should be sorted out quickly because the councils have now taken over services in those mining areas. They are expected to repair roads, collect levies and provide all sorts of services. Now if the council cannot collect the annual rates, then they will have problems.

The ZCCM Holding Company is not helping matters because they are insisting that the issue of title deeds must come from the Ministry of Lands, which takes, in some cases, closer to a year or two, when you look at the case like the one I am referring to now, on the Copperbelt. A quicker method would be that land be handed over to the council and then the council can issue title deeds in their localities. This can take one or two months. At least that would not deprive of the council's much needed revenue.

The other point I want to advance, Mr Chairman, is that we were told and I believe there is a clause on one of the registrations, that we passed, in this House, consumables that will be found locally will be procured locally. This does not seem to be the case as of now. The new owners prefer to purchase their materials from South Africa and elsewhere ignoring our local suppliers, who are quite competent to supply those materials. I would like to know if it is the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development or not who approves those consumables because there is a clause in the registration. Is the Ministry of Mines and Mineral, Development co-ordinating with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development? If they are, then I do not see why we should be allowing these new owners of the mines to be buying all their materials from outside, when they can easily procure most of these consumables from within Zambia.

The other problem is that the so-called suppliers in the neighbouring countries are actually briefcase suppliers. They are people who are not legalised even in their own countries. They have no offices. But when they report that they have purchased materials, we are told these moneys are being disbursed in dollars, which appear to be going to briefcase suppliers and contractors in neighbouring countries, who are also not paying tax, even in their own countries let alone in Zambia. We are not getting anything from them. 

The other point which I would like the ministry to look at is that it becomes strange that when you move around Kitwe today, you will find that all the guest houses and hotels are fully. This is caused by employees of the companies that we sold the mines to. The new owners of the mines are not adhering to what we agreed upon in our agreements of sale. Sir, we cannot have drivers, lorrymates and cooks coming from outside this country because we have proper trained artisans of very high calibre. The ZCCM system was such that they trained their workers properly. So I do not see how they are getting their work permits. There must be something wrong with the people who issue permits. I do not know also whether the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development checks the issuance of proper work permits to people with proper qualifications. We have seen, of late, that there are drivers and mechanics coming from other countries. We have these professionals in this country. This must be brought under control because there are a lot of people out there, waiting to be employed.

Equally the tender procedure must be looked into. What these new owners of the mines - I am not referring to an entity because I believe it is happening on the Copperbelt as a whole - are doing each time a supplier asks for registration, the mine owners are asking for impossible information, to the extent of asking whether your mother was a catholic or not. You cannot have a situation where a questionnaire is that thick. And what they are asking for is what I have never heard of anywhere, even in Europe, they do not ask to produce that kind of information. 

This is deliberately designed to cut off the Zambian supplier so that these people continue to procure their materials from outside. In fact, this is another method of cheating this Government of the foreign exchange. Unless these things are checked, we will continue to have a problem and it will only be sorted out if the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development takes keen interest in making sure that procurements and tenders are done properly, particularly tenders because you cannot have tenders which were approved three years ago because we sold the mines hardly a year ago. So how did they award the contracts? Those are the main contracts that are running now, which is not possible. So there must be something wrong there.

Another mining company in Chambishi was buying cobalt waste from the open market. I would like the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to explain the method used. The people who were buying cobalt were the sole authority to certify whether the percentage of the cobalt in a given truck load. They ended up bankrupting a lot of businesses on the Copperbelt even those individuals who were spending US$10,000 in buying the waste from Congo DR. When they came in, everything was being passed as a low grade with one, two or three per cent cobalt . And you were not allowed to retrieve the same materials unless you paid US$2,000 because they had used their machinary for testing. This is totally unacceptable. The Government’s presence is desired in that direction. I think there must be a Government department  from the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development which will determine the  per centage and cost of the materials. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipili: Otherwise, all in all, we, on the Copperbelt are grateful that the sale of the mines have now started yielding results. You see the economic activities and economic life. The Copperbelt towns are slowly steering back to life and we like to commend the Government for doing so.

With these few remarks, I think you, Sir.

Mr Hlazo (Mumbwa): I thank you ...

Mr L. L. Phiri: Where is your car?

Laughter.

Mr Hlazo: Well it is the organiser of the thieves who stole my car. Let him bring it back.

Laughter.

Mr Hlazo: Sir, I am so grateful that you have accorded me this opportunity to contribute to this Vote on the Floor of the House.

I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to consider and look into my constituency, which is a very rich mineral area in Chief Kaindu. The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, who happens to be my elder brother, should consider - as you know the borders with Kalulushi and Kitwe is the Kafue River. The vein of the emeralds runs from Kalulushi into Kaindu area. Really, there has been a lot of exploitation, illegal mining going on in Kaindu. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to look into it seriously because there has been of illegal mining going on within the area. 

These people who have been benefiting from the poor electorates of Kaindu have not been ploughing back into the community. 

Mr Chairman, my concern is whether there are inspectors who inspect these areas to find out whether these people digging these amethyst, aquamarine, etc are licensed or not. At the same time, we have an idle mine called the Hippo Mine. This mine has been idle for a long period but I can  assure you that we have a lot of copper reserves in Mumbwa. So, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to look into this matter as urgently as possible before we go into the general elections and in that way, maybe, we can consider him for a safe seat so that he continues being the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development even after the year 2001.

On that note, Sir, I thank you.

Laughter.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, I recall and will never forget the words of the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development about eighteen months ago or two years ago when he addressed the hon. Members of Parliament at Mulungushi Hall. He said that when the Government does not sell the mines properly,  our ancestors will rise from the grave and I keep telling the hon. Minister that the ancestors have risen 

Laughter.

Mr Patel: They are not going back because the answers he has given us todate, in the last two years are inadequate. He has still not answered the very key questions with regard to the sale of the mines todate and I do hope that his public conscious will demand of him that at an appropriate time, the whole story and nothing but truth will be told to our country.

Mr Chairman, I am still concerned about the concessions that were blindly given to the Anglo-American on mines and the impact and its effect is still being felt by the industrial sector in our country. Concessions on electricity for twenty years. They have been paying less than you Mr Chairman, for your domestic bills even the resident in Bauleni which is not right ...

Mr Sichinga: That is immoral.

Mr Patel: ... that is immoral. The concessions were given on the importation of goods for twenty years and yet the President has talked about foreign exchange controls. Now, I want to hear from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, how is he going to put the two together because the agreement reached with the Anglo-American on mines is that for twenty years, there will be no foreign exchange controls on mines, they can move their money in and out of our country and the agreement therefore states that in the event that any rules or regulations regarding foreign exchange control in Zambia are introduced, Anglo-American mines will be exempted for twenty years. How then, hon. Minister are you going to reconcile the two, when your President and our President has great concern on these issues? The Bank of Zambia has recently published in a news papers the current rules and regulations. How are you going to treat Anglo-American on this matter?

Mr Chairman, despite all these controversies regarding the sale of mines with arrogance and impunity, the successor company which is ZCCM Investment Holding Company, only few days ago advertised in the national paper that they are selling a property when the law of the land says, only Zambia Privatisation Agency, (ZPA) is mandated to do so. Despite this controversy, there is an advertisement in the paper where some buildings and properties are being sold by the company directly. Why, with impunity, does the Government ignore the ZPA Act?

Interjection.

Mr Patel: It is accurate information Hon. Pule ...

Mr Hachipuka: Let him remain in Church.

Laughter.

Mr Patel: ... and I suggest that you concentrate on Dunamise.

Laughter.

Mr Simasiku: We will baptise you.

Mr Patel:  The Minister of Finance and Economic Development said that there is need to enhance industrial sector, but he provided his duty on products which are being imported; on barbed wire and other products. I would have thought that the Minister with the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development would have sat down together and said let us provide incentives to value added products made out of cobalt or copper and other metals for instance ZAMEFA, it adds value, but instead, they have provided to barbed wire which is imported. Where is the logic in what we are doing here? I do not see the logic at all and I hope to hear from my dear friend together with RAMCOZ.

Mr Chairman, we need a clear solution to this matter, hundreds of thousands of lives are at stake in the Copperbelt. If there are few thousands miners at stake, they have another five members on average per family. 

There is no glory to God to say everything is okay when it is not. So, we need clear-cut answers on these issues. The development agreements, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry said he does not know anything about it and yet there are local business development issues in the development agreement signed with these new mining houses. The hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry cannot promote local interests and businesses because his colleague on the other side says he knows nothing about it. So, how is it going to assist the Zambian business community?

With those very few words, I thank you.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Syamujaye): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for this opportunity you have given me to respond to some of the concerns that have been expressed and also to enlighten the House on some of the developments in the mining industry.

Right from the outset, Mr Chairman, I would like to reiterate that our country is endowed with a variety of mineral resources. I also want to underscore the fact that for a very long time to come, mining will continue to be the backbone of the Zambian economy.

Mr Chairman, this time last year when I presented the estimates of my ministry to this House, the privatisation of the major assets of ZCCM was our common and major pre-occupation. There was, at that time, great apprehension that, perhaps, the process would not succeed. Also, there was the nagging question which was that even if we successfully privatised, would we see any benefits? Mr Chairman, I want to report that barely ten months after the sale of the last major assets of ZCCM, we are now witnessing a reverse of the Copperbelt. A new Copperbelt is emerging in which mining activities have, once again, become very vibrant. 

Massive investments by the new mine owners have been able to put in have helped to rehabilitate most of the mines. New equipment and machinery have been brought into the country. The conditions of work and salaries of workers have, in general, been and are continuously being improved thereby motivating the employees. These investments and the improved morale of the workers have all gone to increase production generally beyond our expectations.

Mr Chairman, in terms of production, here are some of the comparative figures before and after privatisation. Mr Chairman, at the end of 1999, Nchanga Division of ZCCM was able to produce only 12,000 metric tonnes of copper. Today, Nchanga Division, eight months after having been sold, is producing more than 20,000 metric tonnes of copper. At the end of 1999, Konkola Division under ZCCM was only producing 2,000 metric tonnes of copper. Today the same mine under private hands is producing more than 4,000 metric tonnes of copper. These are real figures and facts.

Mr Chairman, a spin-off of this increase in mining activity has been the revitalisation of other industries which supply goods and services to the mines. Companies which were dealing with ZCCM and had either collapsed or were on the brink of collapsing for lack of payment for goods or services rendered have now come back to life on the Copperbelt. There have been a lot of wild statements that the new mine owners are not willing to do business with local companies. This is not true. 

Mr Chairman, only yesterday I had a meeting with senior management of Mopani Mines. It transpired that they have advertised for suppliers of goods and services. All together they need only 80 suppliers of goods and services. Interestingly enough, they have received more than 3,000 applications. This is an indication that there are people out there on the Copperbelt who are prepared to do business with the new mine owners and as I said, these figures relate only to Mopani. The story is, definitely, much brighter when you add Konkola. Metorex, Avmin and First Quantum. However, the catch, and I want to emphasise this because it has been raised many times and it has been raised this afternoon by my hon. Colleague, Hon. Chipili, is that local suppliers of services and goods must be competitive in every respect.

Mr Chairman, as a result of increased economic activity, it is very difficult today, as has been stated already by other hon. Members, to find accommodation on the Copperbelt. Hotels and lodges are full. In fact, new lodges are springing up. Individuals are turning their homes into lodges. The catering industry is also booming with the opening up of more restaurants. These are some of the spin-offs of the privatisation exercise on the Copperbelt. This is reality on the ground. This is what privatisation has done and is doing to our country.

Mr Chairman, before I leave the subject of privatisation, allow me to make two observations on two issues in order to inform hon. Members of the House who may be misinformed or those who choose to deliberately be misinformed. The first issue, Mr Chairman, relates to the allegations made inside and outside this House that as a result of the sale of the mines, senior Zambian executives or professionals have either been fired or have been demoted. However, no facts have been presented to this House or to my ministry to substantiate this allegation. The true position, Mr Chairman, is that out of thirty-three senior management personnel working in the various ZCCM divisions, thirty-two have been taken on by the new mine owners. Only one top executive was not taken. I hasten to say that this particular executive is doing very well as a private businessman. At other levels such as superintendent, there has been a re-alignment of functions so that personnel are placed in those areas where their training and competence can yield maximum results.

The second issue, Mr Chairman, relates to investments. It has been alleged in this House and outside the House that no investments or very little have been pumped into new mining ventures other than continuing with the existing mines. 

Let me just give a few examples; due to new investments, First Quantum will now extend the life of Bwana Mkubwa from the expected three years to beyond ten years. Avmin, at Chambishi Metals will soon be commissioning their smelter which will start treating the slag dam or the famous black mountain in Kitwe. The smelter is expected to be- in fact, it will be the largest in this part of the country. It is currently on trial run. I hasten, also,  to say that it is ahead of its projected timetable. Metorex will soon commission a new mine called Chibuluma South Mine which will be the first mine to be opened post privatisation and the first mine to be developed in Zambia in almost twenty years.

Mr Chairman, some Members of the House have questioned when the Kansanshi Mine Project in North-Western Province will take off or whether it has been abandoned, after all. The Kansanshi pre-feasibility study has been completed indicating a life span of twenty-four years of mining, Hon. Tetamashimba, with an annual production estimated at more than 120,000 metric tonnes per annum. 

The inhibiting factor, however, is the development of infrastructure which I will share with you, that is the road, railway and power from the Copperbelt to Solwezi which, infrastructure is estimated to be in excess of US$ 200 million. No investor is prepared to put in this kind of money into this infrastructure. We are, however, discussing with the investors to see what partnerships we can formulate in order to bring this necessary infrastructure to North-Western Province so that we can begin mining in Kansanshi.

I also wish to say that Phelps-Dodge has actually taken over Cyprus Amax. So, Kansanshis is no longer under Cyprus Amax. I would like to add also that Phelps-Dodge is carrying out intensive exploration work in the Lumwana area.

Mr Chairman, this is merely a brief panoramic view of what happened and what is happening in the mining sector post privatisation.

My ministry is now faced with challenges of the future in the area of small-scale mining particularly that of gemstones. The economy has yet to register appreciable development with positive impact. My ministry has, however, recognised that the major problems being experienced by the small-scale mining operators are the lack of machinery, technical expertise and limited operating funds. 

In an effort to address these problems, we have entered into an agreement with the European Union (EU) to provide funding to small-scale mining operators to enable them introduce efficient mining processes and marketing techniques in their operations.

Mr Chairman, I am happy to report that a technical team has already been put in place which will soon be receiving and evaluating viable projects from small-scale mining operators. Equally, I want to say that soon with the assistance of the EU, a consultancy firm will be formed comprising, among others, mining engineers, geologists, gemologists and others who will be working in our various mining bureaus which are across the country to help those small-scale miners who are unable to prepare and produce documents. I hope that this will be in place by the middle of the year.

I am happy to state that the disbursement of these funds which we have sourced from the EU to the deserving projects promoters will start as soon as the mechanism has been put in place. I am confident that this scheme will bear fruit by way of enhancing the exploitation of the economic potential of the small-scale mining sector.

The long term goals for the mining industry, Mr Chairman, remain private sector driven. The development of new mines will, in turn, increase and diversify minerals and mineral base products and exports through value addition.

Mr Chairman, the exploration and prospecting activities for base and precious metals have continued to intensify, particularly in North-Western Province. Both junior and senior mining companies are spending substantial amounts of money on exploration and it is my ministry's hope that the exploration work will result in the development of the new mines, both medium and large scale.

The major impediment, however, as I have said, is that of insufficient funds to take the necessary infrastructure to those areas where we would like to open these new mines. Mr Chairman, allow me to outline the activities of my ministry and our plans for the development of the mining sector this year, 2001, and beyond.

1    The Geological Survey Department will continue to provide geological information for use in social and economic planing and also in matters relating to the environment, human health and national disaster management. The information will be useful to exploration companies looking for mineral deposits. It will also be useful to local, municipal and city councils for land use and planning in areas such as environmental monitoring, location  of dams, bridges, plants, large buildings, roads and railways. I want to say that, already, the Presidential Housing Initiative is making effective use of my Department of Geological Survey in the construction of the OAU village and other infrastructure.

The department will also be involved in extensive geological mapping and digitisation of existing data. These will be oriented towards acquiring digital data gathering the whole country.

2.    The Mines Development Department will continue to be responsible for both small and large scale mining in the country. The development of the small-scale mining sector can have a direct impact on poverty reduction as these operations are located in rural areas where the poorest of our people live.

The ministry has drawn up programmes to promote the development of small-scale mines particularly in gemstones, such as amethysts in Kalomo, emeralds on the Copperbelt; and aquamarine in Lundazi, Mkushi, Serenje, Itezhi tezhi and other areas throughout the country. The department will also be key unit to monitor the operations of the mining companies in terms of the development agreements and adherence to the Mines and Minerals Act.

3.    The Mines Safety Department will continue to be responsible for ensuring the health and safety of all mining employees in the country as well as the protection of the environment arising from the undesirable effects of mining activities.

Another responsibility of the Mine Safety Department will be to monitor sulphur dioxide emissions from smelting plants of the mines in order to determine the possible effects of the gas on the health of the communities living in the vicinity of the mines.

Mr Chairman, Zambia is the Chairman of the SADC mining sector, in this regard it must show leadership. To this end the SADC Mining Co-ordinating Unit will vigorously co-ordinate the development of mining in the entire SADC sector. This will be done among others through sharing of information, training, etc. However, this may prove difficult in view of the reduction of the grant that the SADC Mining Unit has received of K400 million instead of  the expected K600 million. These programmes can only be successfully implemented, Mr Chairman, with adequate funding for the planned activities for the year 2001 and beyond. 

The privatisation of ZCCM and the resultant development agreement with new investors require an effective monitoring mechanism to ensure that investors fulfil their obligation and develop the mines in accordance with acceptable mining practices. All this requires money. However, as hon. Members will see this year’s allocation to my ministry is far from being adequate.

Mr Chairman, so far only 65 per cent of our country is geologically mapped. And the remaining 35 per cent comprising mainly of Luapula and Northern provinces remain unmapped. The progress which has been made in mapping during the past ten years was due to external funding from the World Bank through the ERIPTER Project, also from the European Union Development Fund (EDF) and the Czech Republic Fund. These facilities regrettably came to an end at the end of last year. My ministry, therefore, desperately needs to source more money to carry out the necessary mapping of the rest of the country. To carry out this task, a minimum of K6.5 billion is required. And yet, as the Yellow Book shows, this exercise has only been allocated K4.4 billion.

Mr Chairman, let me conclude my general remarks by stating that I have taken into account all the contributions by the hon. Members of this House, and all their contributions will receive serious consideration that they deserve.

Let me now answer some of the Members’ queries and observations as best as I can.

Mr Chairman, Hon. Mulongoti and Hon. Dipak Patel raised the issue of RAMCOZ. It has been stated that the sale of RAMCOZ or Roan Antelope Mine to Binani Group was a mistake that needs to be corrected. I wish to report that the bids were judiciously examined. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the Binani bid. What has led to the difficulties at RAMCOZ indicates an inability to follow the development programme.

Hon. Mulongoti indicated to this House that sadly enough in spite of the problems at RAMCOZ, Binani is back. That is not correct. The company has been put under receivership. It is now being managed by a Receiver. Mining operations have slowly started and Government is working with the Receiver to ensure that in future the provisions of the development agreement are respected to the letter.

Hon. Mulongoti also asked why KAGEM is being sold without a tender. KAGEM has not been sold, other shareholders have the first right of refusal. If negotiations do not reach the expected and acceptable conclusions, the normal process will be followed. Government is as concerned as Hon. Mulongoti and others that the mine be sold for its true value. The question of who is buying and who is selling does not arise. The question of who is buying obviously will be announced when the negotiations are concluded. Who is selling? Obviously it is Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA).

Hon. Mulongoti also raised a question of ZCCM Investment Holding Company sponsoring students and I think he specifically mentioned Italy, this is not correct. What is correct is that ZCCM has sent some students out of the country and the successor company ZCCM Investment Holding Company is under legal obligation as a successor company to ensure to it that the students complete their studies.

Hon. Ngulube raised the issue of financial assistance, perhaps, a special bank for small-scale miners. I think I have addressed this subject already in my general statement.

Hon. Chola bemoaned the fact that the mapping exercise, especially in Luapula, specifically in the Mulundu area, has not taken place. I have indicated also that the main constraint has been the fact that the mapping exercise of our country has largely been funded from outside and all these sources of funds have been exhausted. I can, however, indicate, although it may be premature, that I am in contact with my colleague the Minister of Mines in the Czech Republic, to see whether they could extend this facility which ended last year for another one or two years so that we can map the rest of the country including Luapula. I hope to meet my colleague in the next few weeks.

Hon. Mwila reiterated the importance of Geological Service Department, and that he was very worried that it was not well funded. I am very happy for this support. He also bemoaned the scarcity of staff and particularly facilities and transport at Mines Safety Department in Kitwe. I simply want to say that we have become aware of this problem, but it is not the best way of doing things, asking the people who require your services to pay for your transport, food and other requirements. We will be looking into the possibility of, perhaps, revising our fees for the services that Mines Safety Department  renders to the mining industry.

He also did say that the ZCCM Investment Holding Company is distributing land in the Kalulushi area. Our inspection and inquiries this morning reveal that no such activity is taking place. However, if Hon. Mwila has specific information, I will be very happy to follow it up.

The issue of the infrastructure, the road from Chibuluma to Nkana, particularly when Chibuluma South is opened is our worry. I want to say that the mining company, Metalex, is very much aware of this and this is an issue that is being studied.

In addition the environmental issues that you raised honourable in terms of concentrates being spilled over.

Mr Chairman, the hon. Member for Kantanshi (Mr Chilombo) complained about the problem of houses in the mining areas. This is a matter that is currently being handled by MUZ and I do know that my colleague, the hon. Minister for Presidential Affairs had taken charge of this issue. I believe that it will be resolved very quickly.

Hon. Chilombo, I disagree with you that the mining companies are not doing much to help with potholes in the mining townships because in your own area in Mufulira, I know Mopani is starting to help. I know in Kalulushi that Metalex is trying to help. This is not their primary function. They do this because they realise that they have to provide a service to the community. Of course, we would like them to do more. 

You also raised the issue of monitoring of development agreements so that there is full compliance. I think I have covered that issue. This issue is already handled, there is a unit in my ministry and there is another inter-ministerial unit between the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to ensure that these companies comply in full.

Mr Chairman, Hon. Sichinga raised the issue of marketing of precious stones, particularly emeralds and that there is need this time around to ensure that the proceeds from this particular industry are properly managed rather than was the case. I fully agree and this is why we are saying now having got rid of the big boys, we are now going to concentrate on this small-scale industry which can, in fact, compete very favourably with the large-scale mining, but it has almost been forgotten for a very long time and the issue of marketing is one of those issues that we will be dealing with through this technical team which we have set up with the EU and the consultancy firm that we will be putting in place in a matter of weeks.

Mr Chairman, there is one very big misinformation which I want to correct. Hon. Sichinga said that he was worried about the missing cobalt sales amounting to US$150 million. First of all, I want to say that we are not aware of any missing cobalt or information. What is there ...

Mr Patel: Audit report.

Dr Syamujaye: Wait, I will give you the correct information. What is there is that we have a dispute between the seller, ZCCM, and the buyer over the prices that were prevailing at the time of the deal which was over a period of months. And the amount of money is US$20 million, no more than this amount. We are not talking about US$120 or US$150 million. The audit report that has been referred to, my colleague the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development will deal with that matter. There is an audit that has been studied, and all I can say is that the buyer, together with the Government of the Republic of Zambia, through the Attorney-General, are discussing this matter and have agreed to resolve the discrepancies in terms of the prices that were prevailing during that time of the transaction. That is the correct position.

The issue of prudential management of foreign exchange earnings from our mining industry, Hon. Sichinga, this matter is being addressed already between the mining companies and the Bank of Zambia. You have seen that there has been a lot of action in the last few months. It is obviously in the interest of both parties that they consult and if necessary, like you suggest, if these discussions lead to some amendments to legislation, perhaps, that will come. But at the moment there has been very fruitful constant discussions between the mining companies as well as the Bank of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the question of employment of Zambians and bringing back Zambians who are very willing to work in the mining industry, this is part of the development agreement that we have signed and I want to say that all the mining companies, in fact, without exception have indicated that they find that the calibre of Zambians in the mining industry is very good and there will be no difficulties in taking them on. It is a decision that they have to take. Zambia is a signatory to the SADC Mining Protocol and so, they can decide and this is part of the deliberate liberalisation SADC has taken that there must be free movement of personnel through the SADC Mining Protocol. People can work wherever they want to. If Zambians want to come and work in this new environment, I believe they would find it very easy to find jobs with the new employers.

Mr Chairman, I agree with you, Hon. Sichinga, that we should be thinking in terms of value addition to our products. This, in fact, is one of the decisions we took as SADC Mining Ministers that as a region, we should deliberately promote value addition to our minerals rather than export the raw minerals and there is a special SADC Action Plan in that direction. 

On the issue of the monitoring unit, I have already referred to this that, yes, we now need to monitor the development agreements. I have indicated that in my Ministry there is a unit, and Cabinet has also a few weeks back instructed that there be an inter-ministerial unit which will monitor and this will be between the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry on one hand and the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development on the other.

The question of social services to the townships, there is a company that was formed, it was a requirement or a condition of the privatisation of the mines that ZCCM will have nothing to do with social services to the mines, at the same time will not require the new owners to as it were by obligation provide social services to the townships in the mining areas and so a company has been set, it is called Assets Holding Company. This is a private company that provides social services such as water and sewerage and other services to the mining townships.

Mr Chairman, Hon. Tetamashimba bemoaned the fact that houses were demolished at Kansanshi and it makes it very difficult for politicians to explain why this was so. I thought that we had explained this adequately. Unfortunately, we should not really dwell on history, ZCCM was more like untouchable, they did what they wanted. They put those houses in the wrong place. So, now we want to do things properly. Those houses were in the wrong mining area and it was right, therefore, to remove the residents from those areas.

There will be cases whereby even in future, we may still require residents in other mining areas to move because they are located in the wrong areas. That is the simple reason why those houses had to be demolished and people removed. I think I have already answered in my general statement, Hon. Tetamashimba, what will happen to Kansashi. We are vigorously discussing possibilities of partnerships between the Government and the private sector, particularly Phelps Dodge and the other big mining houses so that together, we can take the infrastructure, which UNIP did not take to North Western Province.

Interruptions.

Dr Syamujaye: Yes, MMD will come for the third term and we will put the infrastructure in North Western Province.

Interruptions.

Dr Syamujaye: Hon. Chipili is worried about title deeds not being given out. The correct position is that the Ministry of Lands is handling this issue together with the Surveyor General. Plots are being demarcated and thirteen year title deeds are being released. It has been a complex issue which requires money and surveyors surveying the place, but this has already started. Perhaps, it has not just reached your earlier.

Mr Chairman, we have agreements that these mining companies must procure some of their consumables. I agree that in case of Mopani and Konkola there are specific provisions for them to procure outside, but we are also saying that it is only prudent and logical for these mining companies to procure as much as they can from within the country. Our indication is that, in fact, some of these mining companies are procuring these supplies locally.

Sir, I cannot comment very much on the brief cases outside the country because this country is a free market now, particularly in SADCC, unless these companies locally need to do a little bit better.

Mr Chairman, Hon. Chipili also bemoaned the tender procedures which you believe are restrictive for one to be a supplier to the mining company. The mining companies have indicated to me that they want to be sure that when they get into an agreement with you, you will not go midstream. They want to be sure that you have a track record. If you are going to supply spare parts, they want to be sure that these will be forthcoming when they need them and at the prices you have agreed. Most of our companies, sometimes, have let them down and this is why they want to know who you are. They want to know whether you are a brief case company as you said, or just a front. Basically, this is the reason. I have been assured that if Zambian or local suppliers can assure these mining companies, they will have no difficulties working with them.

The issue of certification of concentrates, I believe is rather technical, but we will look into it and find out whether there is room for an independent way of certifying this. These are private businesses and we must accept that. We think that the Government cannot really, intervene. 

I want to thank Hon. Hlazo for confirming what I said that Copperbelt is alive as a result of the good policies of the MMD. You also said that there is a lot of mining in Kaindu and we need to do that. We have inspectors and we follow them up as much as we can. We have limitations, but I can also assure Hon. Hlazo that Choma One will come back next year without Kaindu.

Laughter.

Dr Syamujaye: Mr Chairman, as regards Hon. Patel’s contributions, if the ancestors have risen, I am prepared to re-bury them because the privatisation of the mines has been a success. There is no way we can run away from that. So, the graves will be re-buried by the success in the mining industry. These concessions that we bemoan are uniform in all the SADCC region. It is not only Zambia which is giving these concessions of 15 to 20 years. If we want to attract investors, we must go by the rules of the game. In mining, this is the rule. Wherever we will go, this is what we will find.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Dr Syamujaye: Mr Chairman, I had finished winding up before break.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE - 15/01 (Ministry of Home Affairs - Headquarters - K8,548,235,707).

Mr Shimonde (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairman, I would like to contribute favourably to this Vote. First of all, Home Affairs is a very important ministry, but I would like to urge the hon. Minister that the influx of refugees is worrying us and it is on an alarming proportion.

I would urge the hon. Minister to make sure that Controlling Officers do reallocate these monies to the needy areas. We also have the Immigration Department which needs to be funded adequately so that the influx of these refugees and illegal immigrants can be brought to book or be controlled. Zambia is a very beautiful country and so, everyone is running away from their homes to Zambia. So, it is becoming a home for everybody else. But we need to guard our beautiful country, Zambia.

Mr Chairman, I would like also to mention that prisons are another eye sore, especially the cells, uniforms, type of food and the welfare of the prisoners, in general should be looked into.

The Prison Department has farms and these farms need to be given adequate inputs and fertilisers to help produce enough food to feed us in this nation.

I would like to commend my Government that the Passport Department is doing very well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: It is long ago when someone applied for a passport and had to wait for a long time. Today, it is a matter of walking in and walking out with a passport.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: I would urge the Government that they should also do that to the National Registration Department. We want our able Zambians to have green national registration cards easily. We are now heading for the presidential and general elections. We have a lot of people who do not have national registration cards. It is time the Government funded the mobile system which the ministry started so that they can also go out in the rural areas to distribute and issue these national registration cards so that our Zambians can be empowered and exercise their constitutional right to vote and elect the leaders of their choice.

Mr Chairman, I would also want to mention that the Drug Enforcement Commission is another very important Commission which needs to go all out in the schools and villages to educate our young ones on the dangers of the use of the drugs. A lot of our children in urban areas have anti-drug clubs, but not in the villages. I am urging this Commission to expand and go to the rural areas to teach our children the evils of using these illicit drugs.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Matubulani (Kalomo): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me chance to add my voice on the motion on the Floor.

Mr Chairman, the situation in the Department of Prisons - Ministry of Home Affairs is pathetic. In my area, Kalomo Prison is about 7 kilometres away from town and the Prison Department has no transport. So, the people who appear before courts have to walk all the way from prisons to Kalomo Township. Besides, the officers looking after these suspects have no Motorola phones to use in case of an attack. I am urging the hon. Minister to quickly look at the problems faced by Kalomo. Kalomo is vast and it has no transport to use in all kinds of crimes. So, there is no way a station can function and manage to reach the expectation of the people without transport. The only vehicle which Kalomo had two years ago got involved in an accident.

The second item is about prison cells. We know that those people are offenders. But, above all, we are Christians, we must look into their pride. Those are human beings. Most of them in those cells are just helping with investigations. They can only be offenders when they are proven guilty. The state of our prisons is bad. We must look into this one very quickly. Most of those who go into the cells come out sick and most of them die. So, we must address this situation very quickly. I often visit my station and can invite anybody to come and see ... {mospagebreak}

Mr Muloji: Unless you are a criminal yourself.

Mr Matubulani: Thank you very much if you are one of them. Forget about it; you are refugee.

Laughter.

Mr Matubulani: One time when the police officer was bringing the prisoners from there to attend their court sessions. After reaching the bridge, they scampered. But this boy could neither help himself nor link up with the police station. If they wished to, they would have whisked him away because he was alone. There is no way we can have a situation on the ground like that. I appeal to the hon. Minister to help the station.

The last point is that, Mr Chairman, once I time took time to visit a relative in Kabwe. Prisoners are in sensitive areas. When you are driving prisoners, you must do the exercise as quickly as possible. But I am concerned about the road leading to Mukobeko Maximum Prison. It is not my constituency but I am a citizen of this country. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matubulani: It is very bad. Then what are we looking at if they cannot attend to such a road. Prisoners can easily jump out and run away. We need to have this situation arrested. I drove to Kabwe and so I know what it is. I went to Kabwe only a week ago.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Chairman, I will be very brief because under your leadership, you have told us not to repeat what others have already hammered on. So being a senior hon. Member, I want hon. Mwila and hon. Chola to know that that is how we debate.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, let me again remind this Government that whatever they tell this august House, we are the best people who carry the information to the electorates. So whatever they tell us here should be implemented. 

Hon. Government Member: To who?

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, it was last year that the programme of issuance of national registration cards was given to hon. Members and the nation at large. They said that they would start with Luapula Province and then move to other provinces. Before we adjourned sine die in December, the indication was that they would go to Eastern Province and other provinces as well. But up to now, nothing has happened. We want the hon. Minister to explain what happened. Why did they not start by December last year because we advised them? We render our services freely to them. 

Mr Walubita: My young man, speak English.

Mr L. L. Phiri: My big man, I think if those things are giving you problems, go and shave them.

Laughter.

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to come to this House unshaven? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Interruption.

The Chairman: In that point of order which is quite misleading on the one hand it is directed at  the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and on the other at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. The hon. Member for Mbabala is wondering whether it is in order for the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to come into this House unshaven. I think being unshaven is also a fashion.

Laughter.

The Chairman: There are people who prefer to keep their beards in order to have their own identity. So he is in order as long as he cleans his beard and as long as the beard is smart, like it looks on his cheeks So he is very much in order.

Will the hon. Member for Chipangali continue, please.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, when the point of order was raised, I was saying that whatever hon. Ministers tell the nation, they have to implement and swallow their pride.

We informed our electorates that they should get ready to be issued with national registration cards. We have many young people who have attained the age of acquiring national registration cards. But up to now, nothing has happened. In fact, I am on record, when I was contributing on the motion to adjourn sine die  last year, the Vice-President advised me in his contribution that since it had not started raining heavily in Eastern Province, the exercise could still go on. But up to now, nothing has happened. We would like the hon. Minister to give us another programme if it will not fail because time is running out. If anything, by March or April, they will be registering voters. When are people going to acquire national registration cards, which are very important?

Mr Chairman, my worry as a seasoned person who is a rural man with the people, and not like those who are elected and immediately come to Lusaka. They forget about going back to their constituencies. No. I have been going to my constituency and I always come from there when the House is in recess.

Mr Walubita: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Walubita: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Chipangali, who, in most cases, really puts his ideas in such a very disjointed fashion reminding us that sometime back, there could have been a provision that fluency in a particular language could be a criteria for coming into this House? Is he in order to lower the dignity of the rest of the hon. Members of the House by saying that apart from himself, the rest of us here do not visit our constituencies and that we have no grasp of what is happening at the grassroots level? I feel that this is a very serious point of order on which I seek your very favourable consideration.

Laughter.

The Chairman: The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs need not seek a favourable defence from the Chair. There is nothing to seek a favourable defence from the Chair for because the hon. Member for Chipangali is merely expressing his opinion. And I do no know, as a matter of fact, that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs has just come back from his constituency. So he is in touch as well. It is not only the hon. Member for Chipangali who is in touch. So that opinion should be treated what it is.

Will he continue, please.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, I thank my big man. But the problem is he is joining a wrong camp by keeping a beard because he is not a doctor or lawyer. A bear is symbolic to doctors and lawyers only. So for him, I think they will give him a problem before he adapts to keeping them. So it is better for him to go to his old fashioned way of removing those things.

Mr Chairman, I was saying that when the Government puts up a programme, be it Opposition or not, our duty here is to explain to our electorates . If this is not done, then it is very shameful. Most of the hon. Members are failing to tour their constituencies because they have no proper answers to tell the people. I think we need a serious answer from the hon. Minister. 

When is the exercise going to take place? We do not want him to give us three days. He wants to rush people to acquire national registration cards. No. They should give us enough time so that all the Zambians are afforded the opportunity. This delay has caused many Zambians to go year in year out without national registration cards. If this is a serious and listening Government, they should act this year, even if it will be late. Anyway, it will be all right because people will make their last attempts.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr. Kabanje (Mwandi): Mr Chairman, I will not say mine is short. It is not short. I will be very brief.

Laughter.

Hon. Members: Show us or lay it on the Table.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Chairman, in supporting this Vote ...

Hon. Members: Continue!

Dr Kabanje: I just want to remind the Hon. Minister of Home Affairs of the pathetic situation that is happening at the Katombora Reformatory School, which falls under his jurisdiction. This is the place where the difficulty ones are supposed to be reformed, but the sad part is that the situation is not fit for rehabilitating the young ones.

Secondly, although it is in the heart land of Southern Province, the students who go there are taught in Bemba. Now I raise a very important question. I had said they are not convicts they are supposed to be reformed. I had said that you cannot transplant people from one area into another area and then disregard the language which is used within that locality. The answer which is generally given is that most of the criminals who go there speak Bemba ...

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: But, that is a very devastating statement because whatever you do, one must always take into account the local environment. I would therefore, like to appeal to the Minister of Home Affairs to review that policy. That policy is negative because it casts a very bad aspiration on the Bemba language. I would like to urge, on a serious note, that the local language must be used.

Secondly, although we pretend that we are a Christian nation, what happens in prisons leaves much to be desired. A visit at the prison will reveal to you that prisoners are fighting for use of condoms. This is extremely sad given the fact that we have a pandemic of HIV. This must be addressed.

Finally Sir, as you all know, all prisons in this country are supposed to be the receiving centres for juveniles in transit to Katombora. Sadly enough, these young ones are not properly protected, they are violated by adult criminals.

I would like to appeal to the Ministry of Home Affairs to find a different approach. First of all, the young ones tend to meet with co-hardened criminals and secondly, they are converted into wives. These are very sad facts and as a Christian nation, we must learn to be compassionate.

Mr Chairman, I support the Vote.

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Mr Chairman, I thank you for affording me this chance to contribute to the Vote on the Floor.

The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) has and continued to do a commendable job by introducing the Anti-Drug Programmes. But to me, it appears that these programmes have ended at youth level. I would suggest, very strongly, that these programmes go down to the adult level because although the DEC arrests people that grow different forms of drugs, the best thing to do is not to arrest but to educate so that they can understand because they think when they grow these things, they will earn money out of that. They do not know the dangers behind these things.

So, it would be proper for DEC to go deep into our villages, even work with us, hon. Members of Parliament, so that we can go with them to talk to the Village Headmen, Indunas and everybody there so that they see the dangers of these drugs that they grow. Some of them only think that they are on money making, but finally, they find themselves behind bars.

Secondly, Sir, I want to comment on immigration. The stretch along the borders from Katima Mulilo, down along the border, is quite long whilst the number of personnel that are found at points where immigration offices are located is very minimal. As such, these men and women, if there are any, find it very difficult to contend the situation. I know the problem the Ministry of Home of Affairs has is finance, so it will be proper that the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development helps the Ministry of Home Affairs by allocating more money so that they can employ more personnel to be able to mann our borders.

Needless to say that we are experiencing a lot of problems, crime is on the rise because of our colleagues who come in and want to make some living after going into unwarranted businesses. I want to stress the fact that it is important that the Ministry of Home Affairs is given more funding so that the Immigration Department is broad enough to be able to curb the problems that are along our borders.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Ms Malama (Chipata Central): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this chance to debate on this serious Vote.

Mr Chairman, I will be very brief. I just want to comment on my prison in Chipata; Nyamuseche. Mr Chairman, when I visited the prison I found that the situation in the kitchen is very bad, they do not have proper plates, pots and the environment itself is not conducive.

Mr Chairman, I therefore suggest, through the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, to allocate more funds to this Vote so that the prisoners can be catered for. Mr Chairman, it is not a crime to be a prisoner, but a matter for you to reform in whatever you have been doing.

Interruptions.

Ms Malama: So, we need to look after these people well. 

Interruptions.

Mr Chilombo: Leave my wife alone.

Ms Malama: Mr Chairman, I also want the prisoners to be given good transport, especially those in Nyamuseche, where they grow a lot of maize, vegetables just to mention a few. But the problem Sir, is to bring these produce to the market due to lack of transport and people cannot go and buy produce at Nyamuseche because it is not easy as the road is impassable.

I, therefore, Sir, urge the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to allocate enough funds to support the prisoners.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Chisala (Kankoyo): Mr Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to say a few things on this Vote.

I want to congratulate the Ministry of Home Affairs for introducing the Victims Support Unit. This will deal with those husbands who find delight in battering their wives.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Male Members: Even women are battering their husbands.

Ms Chisala: Mr Chairman, Sir, it is not everyday that I agree with Hon. Lucas Phiri, but in this case, I want to agree with him and say that a lot of women in Zambia do not have national registration cards.

This is because of long distances to registration offices. It is very difficult for an expectant mother or a mother carrying a baby on her back to walk to these registration offices. I want to urge the hon. Minister to, please, commission mobile registration services in all the districts to ensure that eligible voters have registration cards.

Another issue that I want to highlight here is that of youths. Youths who have attained the age of sixteen and have no parents are finding it extremely difficult to obtain national registration cards. I want to appeal to the ministry to allow church leaders, ward councillors, Chiefs and even Members of Parliament to stand as guardians for orphans in their areas.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Chisala: Another thing, Sir, I also want to ask the hon. Minister is to sensitise registration officers to be more friendly. They are very hostile. It is like you are bothering them when you go to get a registration card. Sir, can you, please, sensitise your staff to be user-friendly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, I support the Vote but I do have a number of issues that I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister. The first issue is that in the current Yellow Book, the National Registration Department has not been given adequate funds, knowing very well that this year we will mount elections and there will be need for registration and issuance of cards. I would like to know from the hon. Minister how this is going to be financed since money has not been allocated under the current Vote on Page 55.

I am also concerned at the priorities that the Government has. The Police Service is very important and the police are doing a good job under very difficult conditions, extremely difficult conditions, but even knowing that, the Government still, in its Budget, does not provide the priorities required for the Ministry of Home Affairs. I will give you an example; last year, the Office of the President, Special Division, got a total K50.243 billion. What on earth for?

Hon. Member: What is your problem?

Mr Patel: My problem is that over the agreed amount by Parliament, 555 per cent higher than what was approved by Parliament was given. This is what the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development told us just the other day. So, the question is: should this money not have gone to the Zambia Police, for instance, for housing, for sanitation and so on? So, where are the priorities? This is my concern.

Interruptions.

Mr Patel: I will give another example. Facts are facts, hon. Gentlemen, please. For example, last year we spent over K45.71 billion on foreign travel, according to the Yellow Book and yet we have not provided enough money to Zambia Police. So, where are the priorities, hon. Minister? If your priorities, by language and by word, are that you need to do all these things for the Zambia Police, then why is it that you are not able to supplement that in the Budget? That is my question.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East): Mr Chairman, I will not repeat what other hon. Members have already said. I have a separate suggestion which I would like to put before this august House to consider.

Mr Chairman, as a parent, it pains me very much to see young offenders after being arrested as suspects being mixed with hard-core criminals. My suggestion, Mr Chairman, is that the Government should build new prisons for young offenders so that when they are arrested, they should be taken to these prisons which are free from hard-core criminals.

Mr Chairman, it is very difficult when you send a man to prison and you expect him to become a woman. It is not natural Mr Chairman. We need to change this culture. Some prisoners have turned prisons into their homes. That is why when they are released, they just stay for a week or two and they commit another offence and they are taken back to prison. It is natural to them. So, if you mix such people with young offenders, you are not doing a good service to the young generation at all. So, the solution is to have new prisons built for young offenders.

The other thing, Mr Chairman, is that Chiefs in rural areas are our custodians and we go to them to ask for support but when it comes to the national registration cards exercise, we are not in contact with Chiefs. But when it comes to the third term, you run straight to the Chiefs to consult them and force them to support the third term. This is not ...

The Deputy Chairman: Order! The hon. Member for Solwezi East who, I am told, is a Chief also, should leave the Chiefs out and also leave the question of the third term because it has never, really, been an issue in this House. Can he be more to the point, drive away from deeper waters and debate factually on the vote before us.

Will he continue, please.

Mr Kangwa: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for your guidance. Mr Chairman, it is difficult to know what is wrong in other camps where you have not been. So, we are saying ...

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. I never do but is it in order for the hon. Member on the Floor to begin jumping up and down as if he is watching animals running in the bush so that he can shoot at them? Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: The hon. Member for Solwezi East, I think, is trying to prove a point that he is still very youthful to Hon. Mabenga. So, he is in order to jump around and show his youthfulness.

Will he continue, please.

Mr Kangwa: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for your protection, but what I know is that when you hear someone talking about something, he is the one who does it.

Laughter.

Mr Kangwa: So, we have got hunters here who can hunt and poach.

Mr Chairman, what I was trying to say is that as parents, we need to think about children of today and tomorrow because they are the future leaders of this nation. People die and children remain. I do not have much to say but I just wanted to give this House a guideline on which they should base their thinking over the children of this nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musakabantu (Nominated): Mr Chairman, I just want to raise three points under the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Firstly, I would like to say that this is a very important ministry because when we say we are going home, we are talking about Zambia and in a way, one would say that home affairs is about the whole country.

Now, under the Ministry of Home Affairs, we have the National Archives. This is the department which has a very interesting national moto: memory of the nation. I have had an opportunity to go into the National Archives when I want certain information. Of course, one enjoys being there if one enjoys reading. There is so much useful information and data and yet, so much at the moment is missing. Now, one observation I want to put across is that it is very difficult to get information while you are there. It can be there,but to put a finger on what you want is something very difficult. 

So, I want to suggest to the Hon. Minister of Home Affairs that, perhaps, he should consider scouting for resources or giving more resources to that department so that they computerise it. If they do that, it will be very easy for us to access information that we want. When we are looking for Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Zambezi, we will be able to get it within a second. I hope that the hon. Minister will take time to help that particular department. When we want to remember or have a memory of our nation, we must be able to go where we can get that information and that information must not be defective. It must be alert. It can only be alert if it is furnished with full resources.

Secondly, I wish to refer to the police camps. I think that police camps, nation over, have a problem of sanitation. Wherever you go, you either find leaking taps or badly looked after toilets or, perhaps, no toilets at all. I know that there are so many camps in this country but what has happened is that those camps, initially, were intended for a smaller population because the criminals were fewer just before we got people from the Western Province.

Mr Shimonde: Hear, hear!

Mr Musakabantu: Now, we have more criminals and I think it is important that we address the issue. You know they were travelling by boats. Now they are travelling by bus. It is very important that we address the question of sanitation in the camps.

The third point that I wanted to raise, Mr Chairman, has something to do with - what does it mean to be a Zambian? I find Zambian citizenship, perhaps, one of the cheapest to acquire. Yet my value of it is that I think it should be the most important around here because so many people flock here. The reason is that this country is very peaceful. The point is that who gets Zambian Citizenship? Look at the freedom struggles in the region. Many people were operating from here and many others have remained here. Who are they now? They have no nationality. We have a lot of people who originated from Angola, Zimbabwe, Malawi and elsewhere. They are around. They cannot vote. They may be growing tomatoes and  cabbages but while they take part in the economic activities of the country, they cannot take part in the political activities of the country.

So, I would like to suggest that while in this region we are trying to get together, we should get to know who is who. I think there is need for a general amnesty to be extended to some of the South Africans or Zimbabweans who have lived here long so that they are given an alternative, either to stay and be recognised as Zambians or they should be asked to go back to their countries. We have people that we cannot identify and when they steal, they will run and we will not know where they have gone because we have no information about them. When their children want to participate in politics we discriminate against them because they are not Zambians. So, I think we need to get to this and get to know who is who.

With these few words I like to thank you, Sir.

Miss R. Phiri (Chadiza): Mr Chairman, I would like to add a few points on this very important vote ...

Mr A. Mwila: And support it.

Miss R. Phiri: ... and I am supporting it.

Mr A. Mwila: Yes!

Miss R. Phiri: Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the Minister of Home Affairs for introducing the neighbourhood watches throughout the country. At least, it has reduced the criminal cases in these small townships except for the Copperbelt because that is where chief criminals are.

Mr A Mwila: Copperbelt is a Lamba land.

Miss R. Phiri: Whatever it is but it is where the Bembas are born and brought up.

Mr Chairman, although neighbourhood watches are supposed to sacrifice, the community must arrange a token of appreciation to thank them for the good work that they are doing. In villages, even chickens could be ideal and this can be done if it comes from the hon. Minister himself.

I would like to comment on the police reserves if they are still in existence because some of them have died without getting their allowances. It is very important that they are paid their allowances because some police posts are being run by these people.

Mr Chairman, I would like to comment on open air prisons because we have one in Chadiza. These people are doing very well especially where agriculture is concerned. If anything, Chadiza is the best in the whole country.

I would like to concur with my fellow Member of Parliament for Chipata over transport. Sometimes when police officers finish their work and they want to go to Chipata, you will find that they have no transport and they end up going by bicycle to Chipata. It is very dangerous because the police officer can be attacked on the way. So, I feel that I should emphasise that the transport problem should be looked into in Chadiza ...

Mr A. Mwila: District.

Miss R. Phiri: ... District.

Mr A. Mwila: And Luanshya.

Miss R. Phiri: Mr Chairman, last year the Minister of Home Affairs was only given twenty-six billion kwacha and only sixteen billion kwacha was released by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. I wish to appeal to the Minister of Finance and Economic Development that since this year the ministry has been given thirty-one billion kwacha, the whole amount should be released by June so that all the districts are given transport, and so that police officers are well-dressed with uniforms. Also, build better police camps. Even extra money which is being released should be used on the Ministry of Home Affairs so that these police officers are happy.

Sometimes you find a police officer on the road and it is raining, what do you expect him to do?

Mr Nyundu: To cry!

Laughter.

Mr Deputy Chairman: I had given the benefit of doubt to hon. Member for Chadiza over her manner of debate and the area she is covering. Zambia Police has already been covered under the previous Votes under the Ministry of Home Affairs. We should now be covering the other departments of the Ministry of Home Affairs which have not yet been covered. I notice that she is spending most of her time now debating Zambia Police instead of other aspects of the Ministry of Home Affairs. Will you be ...

Ms R. Phiri: Sir, I just wanted to emphasise ...

Interruptions.

Ms R. Phiri: ... a point. All I wanted to say is that I support the Vote and let the money be released as estimated in the Yellow Book.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairman, I thank you so much. I will try to be very brief in my contribution and mainly I want to speak about prisons. Before I get there, Mr Chairman, I want to give a timely warning to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that if he does not accomplish what is expected of him within the next few months, I will have him arrested. He is going to force me to evoke my rights under the Zambian Constitution, I think I will try and involve my lawyers like Hon. Malambo, it should be under Cap 33, or 29 were as a Zambian citizen I am empowered to arrest any Zambian, which includes even a Minister I am warning the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that I will arrest him ...

Laughter.

Mr Chikwakwa: Mushala and his style!

Mr Chairman: The hon. Member for Mufumbwe is advised not to come here with warnings, especially against Ministers ...

Laughter.

Mr Chairman:  ... because they have a better way of warning him instead. We always ask for advice but we do not want to warn, because warning has its own implications or has got the connotation of force. And I do not think an hon. Member has the force to drive the Minister into doing what is not right. So, please ask for whatever you want without necessarily warning and threatening to arrest the Minister. I do not think the hon. Member has got the instruments of power to arrest the Minister. It is the other way round.

So, will you, please continue and be more relevant.

Mr C. Ngulube: Hon. Machungwa is scared!

Laughter.

Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, I was trying to advise the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that he must accomplish what he started. 

I will briefly go backward because I did not have a small chance to debate on Zambia Police. The hon. Minister actually visited Mufumbwe with his Commissioner of Police and actually laid a foundation of the Mufumbwe Police Station which is a pilot project. But I am getting concerned and very worried that it is almost one year not even a single ngwee has been given to that pilot project. Hence my advice to the hon. Minister, that I think within the Zambian laws I am empowered to try and advise him that he may be arrested.

Laughter

Mr Mushala: I will move on to prisons. Mr Chairman, when we look at any budget or when we are making a budget, it is always understood that when you provide too little money to any project it is not worth it. Too little money is just as too bad as too much to any project. So, you find that in all budgeting, it is important to consider that the money you are giving to any project is the right amount which will complete the project. I am saying so because under prisons, I have noted, Mr Chairman, that the prisons farm has been given K19 million. When we consider the prisons all across Zambia, the K19 million will do nothing. It is not even worth putting K19 million there because it is too little and will do nothing. Therefore, it is a wastage of funds which will not try and give us the rightful investment that we require to put into prisons farm. 

From that angle, Mr Chairman, I note that the Budget is being unfair on areas like the prisons farm and the prisons workshop which has been allocated K9 million. There is also the welfare fund of K20 million and I hope you will try and explain how the welfare fund is going to be utilised. Let us look at all the prisons that we have across the country. 

It is important that when we are allocating funds, let us allocate enough funds which will finish the project or achieve what we have targeted to be achieved under the funding.

I am also concerned, Mr Chairman, to note that the refugees have been allocated K40 million. Mr Chairman, if most Zambians heard that these refugees have been given the K40 million, most of them would not be happy. Because this money, in trying to support the refugees is not enough, meanwhile this money is also required to be used in other areas which can be rightly used within the Zambian country. I know that the refugees do benefit from the United Nations High Commission for Refugees where they get billions of kwacha. It may be better if we pleaded with the donors that this little money like K40 million which we were supposed to give to refugees is used to try and improve the welfare in the prisons. We should be frank and tell them that we are poor and we do not have money. Instead of misusing the K40 million on refugees, we need it in other better areas, maybe, even go to prisons farm and, maybe, that would help slightly.

Mr Chairman, as I said earlier on that I will be very brief, I am disagreeing or not supporting very much in total the allocation that is going to prisons. Prisons just like any other department is important. You cannot arrest the people and damp them nowhere. When we arrest them we take them to prisons. So, prisons have actually got a bigger task of looking after the prisoners. It is important that in our budgeting let us make sure we allocate enough funds to these departments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikombe (Isoka West): Mr Chairman, thank you for allowing me to contribute to this Vote and immediately I will go to the Immigration Department. 

This country, Mr Chairman, has recently experienced high rate influx of refugees into the country. And I am aware that most of the districts have immigration officers. And these immigration officers are all walking except those who are placed in border towns. They are all walking which makes it very difficult for them to operate. 

In the Budget, the total figure allocated for Immigration Department is K2 billion, but the amount allocated for movable assets which will include motor vehicles is only K153 million. That is not enough and I am afraid if the issue of refugees has to be handled effectively, as the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs would like it to be with his new look, I do not know what he is looking for, but maybe, it is the problems that are actually besieging him in his ministry and that of refugees in the country so that they do not actually come out being banyamulenges of Zaire and Rwanda. 

Hon. Members: Congo!

Mr Sikombe: It is, therefore, a very serious issue and I would like, therefore, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that motor vehicles are provided to each particular district just as much as he did for the Police Service. Even as he did for the Police Service, he had fifty vehicles which actually should have gone to all the rural districts, so to say.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikombe: ... but instead, some of these vehicles

were provided to the urban areas and certain special Divisions or special sectors within the police were created to accommodate that at the expense of the rural areas. The rural areas are places where we need proper surveillance. We have no proper surveillance in as far as immigration or influx or exodus of people is concerned.

Mr Chairman, in my district and constituency, we have a border called Kanyala. Kanyala is a border between Malawi and Zambia on your way to Chitipa. The customs offices there are closed and the Immigration Department does not even have a vehicle. At the same time, we still have an immigration office in Isoka. There is an immigration office in Mpika, Chinsali and elsewhere. In all these areas, motor vehicles are not provided, how do you expect the immigration officers to chase the people that are migrating to our country illegally if they have no motor vehicles.

Mr Chairman, K153 million, if you take your Japanese calculator and if you look at second-hand vehicles that are coming from Dubai, divide that by four, it will only give you, maybe, twenty vehicles. And now those vehicles will not be enough. K153 million is not sufficient and I am wondering why the hon. Minister could have allowed this department to be allocated such a small amount in movable assets including motor vehicles when he knows that he has a mammoth task on his hands. An issue of immigration should not be left to the donors and co-operating partners, it is our country, it is our sovereign.

Mr Chairman, the UNHCR is there and it is an international institution but on a day-to-day basis and as far as our problems are concerned, it is our own baby. It is not the issue of the UNHCR. If the hon. Minister was hoping that, maybe, motor vehicles will be provided by that international institution, I am afraid, I do not think they have done that so far. They only respond to calamities or crisis. It is, therefore, important, Sir, that the Immigration Department be properly funded. 

Mr Chairman, I come from a constituency which is very close to a border town and in my district, Muyombe in particular, Kanyala and Chitipa in Malawi are both in my district and these areas have no motor vehicles, not even bicycles or motor bikes. I hope that with this K153 million that is there, priority will be given to our areas which appear to be calm. I have had a chat with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and he has told me that the allocation of vehicles is to troubled areas. But troubled areas are now sealed and so, these immigrants will now be looking for other areas which are loose, where there is no trouble, which appear to be cool. Sooner or later we will have problems in the other areas and so, we should not just look at the crisis as it is, let us actually prevent a crisis by providing all the instruments that are required.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr A. M. Mwila (Kalulushi):: Mr Chairman, I just have two points to add to the debate on the Vote.

Mr Chairman, first and foremost, I would like the hon. Minister to consider making rehabilitation of prisons a deliberate policy in his ministry, the reason being that we are now experiencing too many suspects escaping from prisons. I know he is under-funded but we should look at ways at which...

Mr Walubita: On a point of order, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Walubita: Mr Chairman, I am rising on a very serious point of order on Hon. Hachipuka, Member of Parliament for Mbabala. Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member in order, being my cousin, to remain silent when I am being harassed in this House for being fashionable and for that matter, my own cousin, Hon. Hachipuka, has influenced one Member of this House to write to me the following note which I will read and quote:

    ‘Minister, please consider buying some black polish for your     beard...

Laughter.

Mr Walubita:...the other alternative is for you to apply white paint to your head...

Laughter.

Mr Walubita: ... so that it matches with your beard’.

Mr Chairman, if there is anything that unites us on non-tribal lines is the new fashion of wearing a beard. Look at Hon. Pule, all the way from Luapula, look at the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, all the way from the Bangweulu Island, look at Hon. Madyenkuku, my own brother from the other side of Zambia and also even my neighbour Hon. Malambo all the way from Magoye. Even the Vote that we are discussing now, look at Hon. Hatembo is also wearing a beard...

Laughter.

Mr Walubita: Mr Chairman, I want your serious ruling. Is Hon. Hachipuka in order to remain silent rather than come to my rescue when I am being harassed.

Laughter.

Mr Walubita: My constitutional and Human Rights are being violated. Mr Chairman, I need your serious ruling.

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: The hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs kept on saying, ‘to remain silent and not to come to my aid’. Obviously, if the hon. Member for Mbabala was not aware that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs was being harassed for wearing a beard which is different from the hair on the head, that is obviously a point of omission and the Chair is not interested in being drawn into those personal issues.

I deliberately allowed the hon. Minister to quote from the note which again is actually private and privileged information between the two hon. Members. Will you, please continue.

Mr A M Mwila: Mr Chairman, I was saying that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs should make it a deliberate policy to be rehabilitating these prisons as we are experiencing too many break outs of prisoners from these prisons.

Secondly, Sir, the amount allocated for training on the Copperbelt which is K4.4 million is inadequate. The Copperbelt Province is the heart of Zambia and considering that a lot of activities are taking place on the Copperbelt, it would be prudent for the ministry to consider funding the Copperbelt Province adequately with the view of keeping the peace that prevails there.

With those few remarks I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Machungwa): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on the Estimates for the Ministry of Home Affairs. First of all, I wish to begin by thanking hon. Members who have contributed to the debate and even those who have not, but have been listening because I know they care about the work of the Ministry of Home Affairs. All in all, fourteen hon. Members have debated and have given us encouragement, criticism and their thoughts on the way forward.

Mr Chairman, before I comment on these contributions from the Floor of the House, let me first begin by briefly talking about the work and vision of my ministry this year.

Sir, our mission statement is that we formulate appropriate policies, monitor and co-ordinate their implementations and provide the operational logistics required for efficient and effective maintenance of internal security by the agencies grouped under my ministry.

The policy of Government on internal security is to ensure that law and order is maintained and the crime rate is reduced. Government, Mr Chairman, is aware that peace and security is a prerequisite for the enjoyment of fundamental rights of citizens and it is important that we facilitate that there is internal security in the country.

My ministry constituted by various departments and I will very briefly talk about these. We have the Home Affairs Research and Information Department called HARID. This unit is in charge of the management of information systems and holds data for the ministry headquarters and its specialised agencies. It also carries research into various issues and also plans the growth and needs of the ministry and its agencies. To this effect, Sir, it is hoped to contribute, through research and information management, to the promotion of informed policy formulation, planning and decision making with due regard being given to integration of such policies and plans within the broader policies and social economic developments of the country while we protect the rights of all individuals.

Mr Chairman, the Commission of Refugees is responsible for the reception and management of refugees in Zambia. It is through this unit that my ministry implements its asylum policy on refugees. You may be aware, Sir, that at independence, the reception and management of refugees was confined to refugees who had escaped from their oppressive regimes, then governing the countries of Mozambique, Angola, Namibia and South Africa. 

At the time, there was not mass migration as we know it today. However, today, the reception and management of refugees is more complex and costly. Over the past few years, the Government has had difficulties in copying with the influx of refugees from the war torn areas in the Great Lakes as well as in Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo. Sir, you may be interested to know that as of today, the population of refugees in Zambia is as follows:

Maheba Camp (North Western Province)    50, 130

Mayukwayukwa (Western Province)    17,984

Mwange (Northern Province)    21,826

Nangweshi (Western Province    12,583

Kala (Luapula Province)    5,200

Ukwimi (Eastern Province)    1,500

Spontaneous Settlements 
in the four provinces    145,000

Total    254,223

Mr Chairman, the ministry is hard pressed to find the necessary and adequate resources for the reception and management of refugees, many of whom are vulnerable women and children. We are working closely with the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees and other Non-Governmental Organisations like Lutheran World Federation, Care International and the Red Cross, to try and attend to the basic needs of the refugees.

Before I leave this department, Sir, I wish to bring one important issue to the notice of the august House. Today, we have in Zambia some refugees who came into the country in the 1960s. These people have not gone back to their countries even when war ceased in those countries. They have children, grandchildren and even great grand children, who have grown up, gone to school and lived in Zambia all their lives.

Now, under the Refugees Control Act Cap. 120, such people do not qualify for consideration for Zambian citizenship, irrespective of the length of stay in the country. However, the current thinking on the issue is, now, changing, especially at international fora.

My ministry will in the course of this year submit proposals to Cabinet on how to deal with this matter. If necessary, we will come to this House to seek your support on how to resolve this matter through necessary legislation.

Mr Chairman, another department is that of Registrar of Societies. This is responsible for the registration of political parties, Non-Governmental Organisations, including religious organisations. The Registrar’s Office is also responsible for the efficient and effective storage and retrieval of information pertaining to these organisations. 

This unit, Sir, is important in the development of democracy and good governance in Zambia and in the work of multi-partyism. The registration of political parties, religious organisations and the civil society has enormously increased the responsibility of this department.

As of today, there are twenty nine registered political parties and we are receiving more applications, 11,215 registered Non-Governmental Organisations and 9,676 religious organisations, including their branches country-wide.

Mr Chairman, the goal of the Drug Enforcement Commission is to effectively and efficiently prevent illegal production and trafficking of narcotics as well as psychotropic substances in order to reduce their supply and preserve the security and moral fibre of our society. Another issue they look into is that of preventing money laundering, to provide rehabilitation services to the drug addicts and to promote awareness of the dangers of drug abuse.

Mr Chairman, drug trafficking and abuse continue to be on the increase in Zambia. Previously, Zambia was only a transit country. However, recently, it is emerging that there are some people in our country who are beginning to use these illicit drugs. Therefore, the efforts of the Drug Enforcement Commission, now, have to be targeted not only at stopping Zambia becoming a transit centre, but also ensuring that we do not become a consumer nation.

Mr Chairman, it is also common knowledge that during the last few years, the international community has experienced an increasing level of trans-national organised crime which is linked to drug trafficking such as terrorism, trafficking in small arms, money laundering and theft of motor vehicles. Now, due to the increased porousness of our borders caused by the liberalisation of trade and the increasing communication technology in the world, activities that secure borders become difficult to put in place. So, such countries like Zambia and other countries in the region find it very difficult to keep out undesirable elements who want to deal in drugs. The safety of our people and the preservation of the whole moral fibre of society become an important challenge in our society and the Drug Enforcement Society is well prepared to do this.

Between January and August, 2000; 1,427 persons were arrested out of which 1,186 were prosecuted, resulting in 533 convictions, seventeen acquittals, 132 discharges 136 withdrawals, with 609 persons having pending cases.

Mr Chairman, the goal of the Prison Service is to effectively and efficiently provide safe custody and correctional services to prison inmates in order to contribute to the maintenance of internal security.

Mr Chairman, there are 53 prisons of which 33 are open air prisons in the whole country. A number of these prisons were built in 1940s. They were meant to accommodate a much small number of people, but as of today, they accommodate about 13,000 prisoners against 1,800 prison officers.

The Government is doing what it can to ensure that the prisons are decongested through the development of more open air prisons where prisoners are less supervised and live in model villages in readiness for being reintegrated in their communities once they have completed their sentences.

The amendment of the Prison Act last December to provide for community service will go a long way in decongesting prisons as the courts will be empowered to sentence persons convicted of minor offences to do community service and will continue to remain within their communities.

Mr Chairman, the basic aim of prison farms and industry policy is to promote self sufficiency in food production and the manufacturing of basic items such as soap, uniforms, and to equip inmates with basic skills needed for their reformation and rehabilitation. I am pleased to say that the prisons department has done very well in the area of farming and we expect to produce much more this year than even last year which was, in fact, an improvement on the year before.

Mr Chairman, the goal of the Immigration Department is to facilitate and regulate the movement of persons entering and leaving the country and to control the stay of aliens in the country in order to contribute to the maintenance of internal security.

Mr Chairman, the global interdependence of world economies and trade has contributed to increased trafficking of people in and out of Zambia. This porousness of borders has been taken advantage of by criminal elements who want to further their criminal activities.

Within the limited resources the department is doing a commendable job. In the year 2000, 365 persons were denied entry; 1,918 detained; 2,092 removed; 42 deported; and 151 prosecuted.

The department also raises some revenue for the Government through fees charged for the issuance of various permits such as employment permits and renewals of temporary permits. However, we are lacking in terms of transportation and other facilities that would assist us to perform even more adequately.

Mr Chairman, the goal of the National Registration Passport and Citizenship Department is to efficiently and effectively issue national identity documents, passports and other travel documents and in so doing, to contribute to the maintenance of internal peace and security.

Mr Chairman, the department faces difficulties in ensuring issuance of identity documents to all eligible Zambians because of limited financial and other logistical problems like adequate vehicles, boats, cameras, plastic pouches and films.

I also wish to re-emphasise the issue that has been mentioned in this House before which is that, in 1997, the Government decided to introduce new and improved national registration cards with security features. In April, 1998 Government and Nikuv Computers signed a contract valued at US$11.2 million to produce these cards. A deposit of US$1 million was paid while the rest had to be paid over a period of 15 months in specified instalments. However, due to financial constraints, my ministry was unable to raise the required instalments and thus the project has not taken off. Government is committed to introducing the new and more secure identity cards. To this end, my ministry together with the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development are looking at various means of putting together the finances needed to start the project.

With regard to the Passport Office, the other obstacle is the lack of management information technology which has led to the predominant use of the manual system of storage and retrieval of vital information. It is true that the passport section is now using the machine readable production of passports. However, records are still kept manually. What we enter into the machine is just what is needed to be printed in the passport. So, when we want to retrieve more information, we have to search manually. The system also faces limitation in capacity in that the current servers based in Lusaka, Ndola and Livingstone have too limited space to cover the whole country. The ideal would be to have a server at each provincial headquarters. That way would even be faster. I am happy to say that after introducing the new technology, we are able to process passports much more quickly than ever before.

Finally, Mr Chairman, I would like to say something about the National Archives of Zambia. 

Mr Chairman, the goals of the department is to provide a national depository service and safe custody of all records, archives and printed publications. This entails the provision of adequate and suitable storage facilities for safe custody of documents in order to preserve them.

Mr Chairman, the department needs to expand its storage capacity and modernise its equipment and I fully agree with the hon. Nominated Member of Parliament (Mr Musakabantu) who bemoaned the fact that we are not computerised.

Mr Chairman, the ministry appreciates the limited resources given to us by our colleagues at finance. However, it is our plea that the hon. Members of Parliament will always support us so that we can acquire a little bit more resources to even be more effective.

Mr Chairman, before I sit down, let me very briefly address some of the issues that were raised by my colleagues in their debates which I may not have touched in my presentation.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembeshi (Mr Shimonde) bemoaned inadequate resources given to us. It is true that the resources are inadequate. But, we cognisant of the fact that the national economy is facing problems and we are committed to do the best we can even with the limited resources. I am pleased to note that he praises our passport officers.

With regard to the National Registration Department, it is true that we do face a lot of logistical problems financially.

The hon. Youthful Member of Parliament for Chipangali (Mr L. L. Phiri), who speaks like a ng’wang’wazi when he debates, wanted to know why we have not continued with our programme. We started the first phase which covered Luapula, Northern and North Western provinces. The next provinces we are supposed to cover are Eastern, Southern and Western. We have experienced some difficulties in getting releases of funds from the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development. This has, in fact, caused the delay. The position, now, is that we are ready to move in March when the last batch of funds is released. However, since March comes shortly after the rains, we know that certain parts of the country, namely Western Province and some other areas where there are floods, we may find difficulties in getting there. We have had to adjust programmes. In March, we will be looking at Lusaka, Copperbelt and Central Provinces. When it dries up several weeks later, then we will be ready to cover the last three provinces.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo (Mr Matubulani) said the Kalomo Prison has no vehicle and radio communication

several weeks later, then we will be ready to begin the last three provinces.

Hon. Matubulani talked about prisons in Kalomo, having no vehicle and radio communication. I agree with you. We have had a lot of problems with transportation. Most of our prisons do not have transport. Recently, I visited a prison where the officer in charge is a lady and she also manages an open air prison which is seventeen kilometres away. And she has to walk to that open air farm to supervise what is happening at the farm. And this was quite difficult. We believe we will have to see if we can find her something.

Mr Patel: Buy her a Volvo.

Dr. Machungwa: Hon. Chief Bauleni, a Volvo cannot work in that area. We need a 4x4.

The hon. Member for Mwandi wanted the young offenders, who are sent to Katombora to first learn the local language before we begin to teach them anything. In fact, sending people to Katombora is not like sending them to the Soviet Union or the Far East where people have to begin learning the local language. I think we normally teach them in English or any other language that they are able to use. I have been to Katombora several times and we have managed to speak in English. If we need translation, we are able to translate into the language that the offenders will understand.

Hon. Mabenga said that the Drug Enforcement Commission is doing a very good job. We are very happy. We will review his suggestion that they may wish to consider to carry hon. Members of Parliament on some of their campaigns to the local communities. We will try this and if we find it useful, we will make it a permanent feature of the programme.

As regards immigration officers being too few in the border areas, this is in fact true. Part of this problem is funding. We have, as I am talking now, trained fifty-three officers but because of lack of funding, we have not deployed all these officers. We are trying to get authority from Cabinet Office. First of all, this has to come with treasury authority. So part of the problem is that the funding is a little difficult to get. As a matter of fact now, we have fifty or sixty vacancies. We should be recruiting to train more officers in that field but, of course, this can only come once we get the authority and if the funding is going to be there.

Hon. Malama, the hon. Member for Chipata, yes, I am aware that Nyamuseche Prison has problems in terms of transport. The issue of plates and pots is countrywide. Some of these issues will be looked at in a small way. We will be looking at one prison at a time and we will try to address some of the smaller problems. The issue of transport is something that we have tried to build into the prison reform programme but this needs a lot of funding and will take quite a while for us to have it fully in place.

The hon. Member for Kankoyo talked about the issue of national registration cards. Yes, the issue of NRCs is something that we are trying to address. In fact, in the urban areas, all the offices are ready to issue national registration cards. If our people go there, they will get national registration cards. I was rather thrilled when Hon. Chisala said that pregnant women find it difficult to get national registration cards. I would like to believe that most of these ladies have already reached the age of sixteen or seventeen years. They should get their national registration cards. However, if they are getting in the family way, like the hon. Member for Chipangali would prefer to look at himself as being a youth and get young ladies in the family way, we will try to make it easy so that they can have the cards.

I appreciate the hon. Member for Lusaka Central's comments. Yes, it is true that funds for police could be more but this is a Vote that was debated adequately the other day.

Hon. Kangwa for Solwezi East, yes, we will try to build more prisons as funds become available. In fact, we are working with one of our bilateral supporters or co-operating partners to try and build one juvenile prison on the Copperbelt and one for females, in addition to Katombora. I have already commented on Hon. Musakabantu's suggestion.

The hon. Member for Chadiza talked about the issue of police reserves. Yes, I think this is something that could have been discussed under the other Vote. Open air prisons are doing very well. Yes, we recognise that and we will try to do everything we can to try to facilitate these units so that they can do very well. In fact, they encourage rehabilitation because inmates live in a more or less normal environment.

The hon. Member for Mufumbwe threatened to arrest hon. Members including the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. If you read your law, the citizens arrest can only be effected if somebody is committing an offence and that is when citizens can do that. Now the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is just doing his job and you risk being arrested yourself hon. Mushala. We will try all we can to ensure that we get some funds to fund your prison.

The hon. Member for Isoka West talked about immigration. Yes, I agree with you that we need a bit more funds for immigration. In fact, one of our weaknesses in immigration is the lack of transport, both water and road transport. Obviously, the K150 million is just a drop in the ocean if it can even buy one vehicle. But we will continue to work very hard and lobby our colleagues at the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development so that they can assist us.

The issue of rehabilitation of prisons that was raised by the hon. Member for Kalulushi is important. This is hampered by lack of resources. But we will continue to do what we can to try to address this issue.

I would like to thank hon. Members for their very positive contribution to this Vote and I am extremely happy about it.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/6 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/6 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 is ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 17/01 - (Ministry of Foreign Affairs - K56,014,659,898)

Mr Mfula (Chipili): Mr Chairman, our foreign policy objective in this country is to ensure effective representative of Zambia’s national interest abroad. In this regard, the principle purpose of the Budget, therefore, is to ensure that there is adequate provision of resources both human and financial for the purpose of this.

In recent years, Mr Chairman, because of financial constraints, the Government has tried to reduce the number of Missions Abroad in order to adequately fund the remaining missions. Unfortunately, this has not yielded results. 

Zambia, as we know, is very highly respected internationally and regionally because of our involvement in peace-keeping and peace-making.

Mr Hachipuka: It was!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mfula: It is still. We are very much respected for that. It is cardinal, therefore, that Zambia should be represented by officers who are highly qualified, motivated, loyal and dedicated. Mr Chairman, continued insufficient and late remittances of funding has very much affected what we intend to do. The missions have been very badly affected because under-funding and late remittance, as I said earlier on, has very much affected the coverage of countries of extra accreditation,

visits and tours within countries of accreditation, and participation in international meetings. You will find that those officers abroad cannot attend meetings because of financial constraints.

There is also proper maintenance of mission properties. I think we have a case in point here of the Chancery in New York. We understand that it is only this year or last year that that Chancery was repaired. Now, if it had been repaired much earlier, we would have spent, perhaps, less money than we have done. Regular or timely payments of salaries, allowances and services, official entertainment has also been affected, morale of officers has gone down. The total impact of foreign affairs relations is on the image of the country.

Mr Chairman, in diplomacy, you are expected to project the image of your country and not poverty. In diplomacy, one should never, I am told, exhibit poverty of one’s country in a country where you are accredited. You can only pretend, perhaps, and bear the sufferings of the people at home but never export your poverty to another country.

In diplomacy, again, there are established international standards which must be maintained because diplomats mingle, wine and dance with Kings and Queens, Presidents, Prime Ministers and other prominent personalities. Zambian diplomats, therefore, cannot and shall never be exempted from upholding these standards. They cannot uphold these standards if they are under funded.

Mr Chairman, Zambia is moving towards the establishment of a career foreign service. In order to ensure efficient representation of our national interests abroad, we, therefore, welcome the establishment of the Institute of International Studies at NIPA. It is my sincere hope, Sir, that more graduates from that institution will be deployed to serve abroad. Our country needs them. Sir, the art of diplomacy has become increasingly complex and demands professional training and expertise.

Mr Chairman, I do remember that some years back, the Government had committed itself to purchase properties in different countries where we are represented. Properties such as chanceries, residences and I remember when I was in Canberra, we built a Chancery and also purchased residences for our staff and we saved quite a lot of money that way.

Mr L L Phiri: Where was that MCC material?

Laughter.

Mr Mfula: We saved quite a substantial amount of money. Very unfortunately Hon. Phiri, due to financial constraints, again, we are far from fulfilling this commitment. Now, once we have our economy on track, we should be able to encourage this commitment because it is something that we cherish. To Zambian diplomats abroad, they must be constantly mindful of the singular honour of serving their motherland, in this regard, they should demonstrate their best conduct and sense of discipline. They should realise that it is the ordinary taxpayers’ money which maintains or sustains their families.

Mr L L Phiri: Stop reading.

Interruptions.

Mr Mfula: Hon. Phiri, I am not reading but just referring to my notes. They should remember that it is the ordinary tax-payers’ money which sustains their families and also keep the operations or activities of the mission going. Mr Chairman, in most advanced countries and a few African countries, Heads of Mission have been honoured for the role and dedicated service they have rendered to their countries and their countries too have recognised that they have done something that could have been done, perhaps, in very difficult circumstances. Once such diplomats have retired, they have been allowed to retain their diplomatic passports, they also have been allowed to retain their titles. The only difference is that their passports are stamped ‘retired diplomat’. That is an honour which I think the ministry should consider bestowing on the diplomats of this country because they have served well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mfula: They should also be called Ambassadors because they believe once an Ambassador, always an Ambassador. I humbly request my caring Government that in the same vein, I would like to express my appreciation to the Government for the honour accorded to the deceased Heads of Mission. They are accorded State Funerals, that I appreciate and thank the Government for that.

Finally, when diplomats retire, they are recalled and it is just fair that they are told from the time that they are to be deployed, what their next step will be in life and once they arrive here, they should find something like benefits already ready so that they do not suffer as they do at the moment. Some of them are suffering, I am not saying all of them. This is important, Sir.

Mr L L Phiri: Finally!

Mr Mfula: Finally, in this regard, I whole heartedly welcome the statement by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development that he has made adequate provisions for retirees’ benefits in this Budget.

Lastly, I would like to say thank you very much for the time accorded.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkabika (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me chance to add a few words to the debate on the Vote.

Mr Chairman, I would like to salute the President, Mr F. T. J. Chiluba, on championing democracy here in Zambia and Africa. Mr Chairman, I commend the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for helping the President in the foreign policy of democratisation of African States.

Mr Chairman, I want to salute the thirty-six African Heads of State and Government Summit, in Lome, Togo, who supported our President and Zambia’s view on democracy and resolved that any Government that ascend to power through unconstitutional means should be ostracised and isolated.
Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs failed us by giving wrong advice to the President when he opened this station. Zambia knows very well, through this ministry, that there has been no elections in Congo DR to warrant this House to honour anybody in the Congo. This august House was used to honour a man who brought poverty and death to Zambians and Congolese. He ascended to power undemocratically. The ministry was supposed to have advised the President on the norms of democracy, accordingly.

Sir, this ministry, despite doing a very commendable job in the past year, it has not been very sensitive to the plight of Zambians ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri-Mposhi Constituency has been in this House long enough to know that it is not parliamentary to discuss heads of state of other countries disrespectfully, like he is trying to do. We need to accord them the respect that is due to them, otherwise, they would not have risen to become presidents of their own countries if they were not that important and respected. So, I would advise him not to debate the former Head of State for the Democratic Republic of Congo, in the manner that he was referring to him.

Will you, please continue and be more relevant.

Mr Nkabika: Mr Chairman, I was saying that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs should be sensitive enough to the plight other Zambians in other countries. For example, in Zimbabwe, Zambians were chased from their employment by the war veterans illegally, but the Ministry of Foreign Affairs did not respond as they have been responding in Congo DR programmes.

According to the records that we have, Mr Chairman, a lot money has been spent by trying to resolve the problems in Congo DR while the Zambian Government has not responded to other countries. So, I urge this Government to respond with the same zeal as they are attending to problems in Congo DR in other countries.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairman, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to speak on this very important Ministry of Foreign Affairs. First of all, the ministry of Foreign Affairs of any country is like a living room in a house. In many homes, we eat food in the dinning room without knowing there are cockroaches in the kitchen, but we do eat. So, that is how important a living room is and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a ministry that represents a country outside the country’s boundaries.

Mr Chairman, the funding of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs provided for in the Budget is quite inadequate. This is because this ministry represents our country in various countries and one would expect that they  carry a better picture. Diplomacy is about, sometimes, pretense. We should learn to pretend that we are descent, even in the midst of poverty. 

Sir, what has been going on is that we have been under-funding the embassies. For example, in Dar-Es-Salaam, we have a house which was demolished a few years ago. We have been unable to even repair it. 

Everywhere you go and whatever problems you are likely to encounter, the last place you would want to go to is the Zambian embassy. This is because even the individuals themselves who work there will not be in a position to help. The times when I travel, I shudder that I should not get sick because I would least expect support from those people because they are inadequately funded.

Mr Chairman, we have children abroad and of the Zambians here have got relatives who have left this country, but the embassies are unable to assist because they are ill-funded. 

Sir, I made the analogy that foreign affairs and indeed the embassies are a living room because I would expect that we should project our image better by funding them adequately. I say so because year in and year out the Front Bench cannot assist. We will debate this Budget and at the end of the day, we will approve it, but somewhere along the line, the effectiveness of the Government is how close they can meet their target. 

Mr Chairman, the targets in the Yellow Book and very soon, there will be expenditures in defence and everywhere else, as Hon. Patel, earlier on alluded to, showing excessive expenditures. If we have capacity to expand to those levels in some of these areas, why is it not possible to fund the Ministry of Foreign Affairs adequately, so that at least our image is correctly projected.

Mr Chairman, I would like to submit with those few words that we should be serious as a nation.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Sata indicating to speak while pulling up his trousers.

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga (Isoka East): Mr Chairman, as Hon. Sata was dressing up nicely, I thought he was probably seeking to be dispatched to the diplomatic call.

Mr Chairman, I rise to support this Vote. I think it is important that as Zambians, despite the financial difficulties that we face, we must put up a brave face wherever we are. I think it is just a matter of national pride.

I, therefore, endorse most of the allocations that have been made this year and through the Chair, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I am rather disappointed that quite a few of them, have allocations that are lower than last year.

Mr Chairman, let me explain why I am concerned about that. We all acknowledge that the exchange rate of the kwacha to foreign currencies has deteriorated. Therefore, what is a natural reaction, would be that the kwacha equivalent should be higher than last year.

I have just gone through the Budget and would like to mention a few embassies where this amount has been lower than last year, which means that they will have difficulties meeting their commitments.

Lubumbashi last year had K737 million, this year has been allocated K400 million. London had K3,610 million, this year, K3 billion. Cairo had K1.8 billion and has got K1.7 billion this year, Dar-Es-Salaam got K1.4 billion last year and K1.3 billion this year. Moscow K2.4 billion last year and K2.3 billion this year. Addis Ababa and Lagos the same. More specifically, I just want to touch on the issue of our embassy in Tokyo, Japan, which I happen to have visited with Hon. Regina Phiri and the Chairman, last September.

We were rather concerned at the difficulties we saw our Embassy experience. The particular sad part of it which, partly, Hon. Hachipuka alluded to was that we had a situation where members of the diplomatic corps were not even able to send their children to appropriate schools. What was even worse is that two of our officials were down with TB because of the living conditions under which they were subjected. This, in my view, Mr Chairman, is unacceptable.

There was a major appeal made to those that visited that area, especially that we receive so much help from Japan that that particular mission needed to be given the kind of boost and support that necessary to create the right kind of image.

I wish to urge the hon. Minister that because of the cost of living, Tokyo is the most expensive city throughout the world. It ought to be given a lot more than has been provided. I believe it is not too late to do something about it. I know that the ministry has received less this year. It had received K10 billion last year and K8 billion this year at headquarters. I think that we need to find some resources, Sir, to ensure that these missions, especially, those that are high activity missions like Johannesburg, Tokyo, London, Brussels, New York and Washington. These are important missions that need to be adequately funded because of the high traffic that goes through them.

I wish to appeal, through the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and Economic Development (Mr Simasiku), that because of his kind of style, anybody seeing you going to Tokyo, will think you are carrying money on yourself to make sure that the mission is looked after.

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: It would not be suitable for Hon. Simasiku to arrive there and find your members living in squalor. I think this is most despicable. I urge that a specific consideration be given to these missions that I have just mentioned and more specifically to Tokyo.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikombe (Isoka West): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to add my voice to this very important ministry and the Vote itself.

Mr Chairman, our foreign policy begins where our domestic policy ends. What is important for us is to ensure that our local situation is perfected. Whatever we are doing locally here should be a reflection of what we expect and do outside.

Mr Chairman, I am not worried about the funding issue as it were. But, I am more worried about the calibre, morale and the morals that are involved with the people that we send to represent Zambia.

The funding issue, to me at the moment, may appear to be paramount but it is not important. It is the type of the calibre of people that we send out that are representing Zambia. Zambia ought to be represented by people that can sell Zambia positively. Zambians are not outside to sell a particular institution and party. I have been outside the country before but I have never mentioned any particular institution that I come from, even independent as I am. But, I talk about Zambia and that is important.

At the moment, we have people that are out there. Some of them do not represent the Government as it were and the republic of Zambia as a whole. Perhaps, this is what may put pressure on the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to have this white beard that he has created around his face. He has to do more than what he is supposed to do because his representatives are not presenting him well enough.

Mr Chairman, in this country we have all the natural resources that we need. We can sell Zambia well. These missions that we have abroad are supposed to be selling Zambia, not politically only, but economically as well.

I am afraid that we have closed some of these embassies but we must consider reopening them because they closed on political grounds and not economic grounds in that financially we are constrained. But I think that if Zambia has to forge ahead, if our country must be resuscitated, we must reconsider spending a bit more money to reopen some of these embassies. There is no way you can have an ambassador in Egypt based in Cairo representing the whole Middle East and yet we are doing a lot of business with them politically and economically. 

Mr. Chairman, it is important that even if we cannot open fully fledged embassies, as it were, we can go down to have what are called liaison officers who eventually graduate to become High Commissioners or Ambassadors. In countries that I have mentioned, these will be called Ambassadors not High Commissioners at all because they are not in the Commonwealth. 

Mr Chairman, our country requires a lot of marketing. We have our own problems here internally but let us put our problems aside and forge ahead to create the wealthy for this country. If you put some of the countries in Africa, eight of them combined in one direction, this way or that way if you like. I do not want to mention the countries. All those countries combined do not come closer to the amount of wealth which is in this country. And yet we are not doing as much as we should be doing. All these things hinge on management which is not basically political but based on the individuals that are there. There are no politics when you become High Commissioner or First Secretary in Japan. There are no politics about it. You are there to execute what is right in as far as Zambia Revenue Authorityy and Food Reserve Agency and all the institutions that are laid down in our country are concerned. That is what you are supposed to be doing. You are not a politician when you are out there except when, perhaps, you are receiving your President. That is when you exercise politics. But on a day to day basis, you must be doing business when you are abroad in the interest of your own country.

Mr Sata shook his head.

Mr Hachipuka: Do not shake your head.

Laughter.

Mr Sikombe: We have problems now. We are losing out a lot of deals because of the calibre of the people that are there. They do not understand what business means. They would rather carry the suit case or bag of Hon. Sata when he arrives at an airport very quickly ...

Laughter.

Mr Sikombe: ... and forget about the rest. I am provoked because you are shaking your head like you appreciate what I am saying. But in detail, you are appreciate what I am saying, Hon. Sata. Please, if you are looking forward to becoming a president of the Republic of Zambia, listen very carefully.

Laughter.

Mr Sikombe: We have to build this country. This country has done very well in many aspects. We are a peaceful nation. 

Mr Chairman, at this point, allow me to pay tribute to the people of Kaputa in Northern Province. In this country, if the people of Kaputa and Kawambwa and all the other areas which have been besieged by the refugees were belligerent, our country would have been at war now. 

Mr Nyundu: Kaoma.

Mr Sikombe: A war is not started by the people that have guns. A war, generally, is started by the people that react to aggressions without even weapons. Then, you move in to support and defend them. That is why you call them the Armed Defences Forces of Zambia. They are not armed aggressors of Zambia.

Interruptions.

Mr Sikombe: Excuse me, I am on the Floor and I would give the carpet at the end of the day so that you can take the whole of it. 

The people of Kaputa have displayed to us all as a nation in this country how peaceful Zambia is. 

Mr Mushala: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, is Hon. Sikombe, who is debating very well in order to be commending Kaputa only when the refugees they are accommodating are only about twelve or twenty thousand compared to Maheba which has about 150 thousand refugees in Solwezi. Is he in order not to commend the whole country but only emphasising on Kaputa?

Mr Deputy Chairman: In that point of order which has some element of omission, I wish to draw the attention of the hon. Member for Isoka West to the fact that there are quite a number of other regions or provinces in this country. He could have, perhaps, included on the list of those to be commended for being hospitable to refugees like the ones that he has mentioned. I think the hon. Member for Mufumbwe is very jealous about that commendation only going to one part of that community when some of his own people are also going through the same, that is the point that you might wish to capture in your debate, but it is a point of omission. If you choose to take it or leave, will you please, continue.

Mr Sikombe: Mr Chairman, if only the clock can be turned back from where I started, I appreciate that my brother when he debated, he omitted that issue in his contribution, but I had not actually financed my debate and I was coming up step by step, district by district.

Laughter.

Mr Sikombe: I was actually reflecting to the immediate situation which actually besiege Kaputa and I think, even the Ministry of Foreign Affairs will agree that everybody was not sleeping, people like His Honour the Vice-President, the hon. Minister Without Portfolio, Mr Sata and many others when we heard the stories about Kaputa, everybody got worried because the situation was not the same as it were in Mayukwayukwa and Mufumbwe where my brother comes from.

Mr Walubita: Even in Sinjembela you.

Mr Sikombe: Sinjembela too, provided. Now, that I have awakened you to a new point, may I please, be  allowed to go ahead.

Mr Chairman, the issue of foreign affairs, the portfolio is very important and needs to be heavily funded and I think the Ministry of Foreign Affairs must start travelling locally widely in the country more than he can do a broad in order for him to open up all his avenues outside the country. The more you travel locally like you did recently was very good and yet you only ended up in one area. I learnt that in Isoka you only spent about two hours, you should have spent a night, but you are not menace as I thought you could have been. The point is that this ministry is very important like any other ministries but our priorities must be focused on what we want to achieve in a particular ministry. At this particular point in time, we need to do something about refugees.

Mr Chairman, I want to beg the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to reconsider this issue seriously.

With these few words, Sir, I thank you.

Mr Chilombo (Kantanshi): Mr Chairman, I rise to support the Vote. In doing so, I would like to make the following comments.

The mission for Zambia to day is to improve our economy.

In my view, the missions abroad can be used in a number of ways to promote the image of the country and to improve the economy of this country if we properly handle these Missions Abroad.

Mr Chairman, a few African countries today are considering to invest abroad in order to increase the foreign exchange reserves. The missions abroad can play a very important role in this direction. Today, many African countries, like Nigeria and Ghana, are promoting what they are calling business commando theories. They are encouraging their citizens to go and invest abroad, to set up companies. We cannot increase foreign exchange reserves if we just continue with one side of business in this country. We must encourage our citizens, there are a lot of Zambians who are studying and working abroad, the missions abroad can play a very important role by meeting these citizens abroad and encouraging them to take up the challenge of investing in those countries After all, they are making money in those countries. Some of them are very good in a number of business ventures. In that way, Mr Chairman, we will be able to increase the foreign exchange reserves.

Mr Chairman, the missions abroad have been reduced, I do not subscribe to the thinking that because the missions abroad have been reduced, therefore, the funding should be reduced as is the case in this year’s estimates for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I would think that the reduction in missions could have prompted the increases of remittances to the remaining missions abroad, that we are able to support at the moment. But we see an opposite situation. I do not understand. Perhaps, the only reason why I can understand is that because our kwacha is depreciating, it is becoming more and more difficult to support our missions abroad. This is why it is very important, Mr Chairman, to manage our foreign exchange properly. 

I am one of those hon. Members who have spoken about fiscal financial management and a sound management of these resources. The theory of the liberalisation of foreign exchange does not suit our present environment, except to attract foreign investors. But we can still manage our foreign exchange, not necessarily going back to the control of foreign exchange. You can do this by putting up a structure to manage the foreign exchange whenever there is turbulence in the financial market. What the Bank of Zambia is doing today, they should have done it a long time ago to save our kwacha. I think we are applying the measures too late because now we are not even funding the Ministry of Foreign Affairs effectively, which could have promoted Zambia’s business abroad because of lack of funds. I think it is not good enough to give an excuse that because we have no sufficient funds, we cannot support the ministry.

Mr Chairman, it is important that we improve the funding to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in order for us to improve other areas of our business.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Chairman, I hope you will forgive me for expressing my condolences, on behalf of my friends here, to the Hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs who lost his mother. Please, Minister, accept our deepest condolences.

Sir, may I just endorse what has been put on the Floor by hon. Members and in supporting this Vote, let me just add one or two small observation.

The first point is that, in the appointments to the foreign service, there should be transparency and equity. We should reflect, as our President Dr F.T.J. Chiluba said that, we should reflect national unity. There has been a tendency to be lope sided in this arrangement.

Secondly, Sir, ...

Interruptions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Go on! They are disturbing you.

Dr Kabanje: If the hon. and learned Minister, ‘Lord Sata’ could give me time please ...

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: ... what I would like to advance is that there should be a non partisan approach because cadre ship is given priority over capacity delivered. This is wrong and it must not be supported.

Mr Chairman, I would further say that we must evolve our foreign policy doctrine from geopolitics to ecopolitics, meaning that our foreign policy must advance our economic needs.

Finally, I would like to urge my brother the Minister of Foreign Affairs - a very able and competent Minister, to urge all his members of staff in the foreign service to make one particular book  a compulsory reading. This book written by V J Mwaanga called an Extra Ordinary Life is a diamond. It is a book which is like a campus which will guide a diplomat in the savannas and swamps of diplomatic life. 

With these few points, Mr Chairman, I support the Vote.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: I thank you, Mr Chairman, for according me this opportunity to contribute on this Vote. 

Sir, I would like the Minister when he comes to wind up to tell this House what criteria they use in appointing those who are sent abroad. Mr Chairman, this is a very serious issue. Sir, if you saw the interview, a week ago, on the South African Television, one of Zambia’s representative there was being questioned and we saw how he made a lot of mistakes.

Sir, it does not reflect Zambia’s true calibre of leadership . Mr Chairman, there is no logic for a person who is not elected as an Member of Parliament in a constituency, rejected by the people of Zambia to be sent abroad. For what? That person is a failure because has lost the elections.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Appointments into foreign service are done by both the Public Service Commission and the Head of State. And when they are done by the Head of State, he has a prerogative to do that because the prerogative lies with him to appoint anybody to serve in the foreign service. The Constitution of this country does not disallow anybody who has failed an election from being sent abroad to perform a duty outside the country except for coming into this House. So, that is the position.

Will please, continue and be more relevant.

Mr Mwaanga: And it is not for those who wear Parliamentary Messenger Uniform.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, your ...

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

HOUSE RESUMED 

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 9th February, 2001