DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 22nd February, 2001

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

Mr Speaker: I have one announcement for the House.

Hon. Members, I have observed with dismay that a situation has developed where hon. Ministers request that their Heads of Expenditure be delayed to a later date. This is after the Order Paper has been published. This week alone, Heads of Expenditure of three ministries have had to be deferred. This is unacceptable.

This House is aware that this particular Meeting of Parliament is intended to consider and approve the National Budget to enable the Government execute projects and other operations once money has been voted by Parliament. The delay occasioned by suspending debate of Heads of Expenditure will result in the Budget being approved late. Furthermore, it is a constitutional requirement that the Budget should be approved within a stipulated period.

As Hon. Members are aware, every Friday, His Honour the Vice President indicates Business of the House for the following week. In his statement, His Honour the Vice President gives an idea of the Business the House will consider, including the Heads of Expenditure that are likely to come up for consideration by the Committee of the Whole House. There can, therefore, be no excuse for Hon. Ministers to claim that they are not ready for consideration of the Estimates of their ministries.

I need not remind hon. Ministers that this Meeting of the House is primarily for consideration of the Budget. I expect that hon. Ministers are ready at all times for consideration of the Estimates of their ministries. Accordingly, no further postponement or deferment of Heads of Expenditure of ministries shall be entertained.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Are you tired or what?

QUESTIONS

UPGRADING RURAL HEALTH CENTRES IN LUPOSOSHI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

46. Mr Mweni (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Health when the following rural health centres in the Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency would be upgraded:

    (i)    Nsombo Rural Health Centre;

    (ii)    Katuta Rural Health Centre;

    (iii)    Chungu Rural Health Centre; and

    (iv)    Tungati Rural Health Centre.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I wish to state that the policy of the Government is to rehabilitate the existing infrastructure and not to upgrade the current health centres. 

So far, funds have been sourced through micro projects for the rehabilitation and extension of Nsombo Rural Health Centre in Northern Province. As for Katuta, Chungu and Tungati rural health centres, these will be rehabilitated when funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapangalwendo (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the hon. Minister is aware that rural health centres throughout the country were built sometime back and the population has increased since then, and therefore, the need for new rural health centres. We are completely static with these rural health centres. When are they going to upgrade them?

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware that the rural health centres currently in place are inadequate. But, it is a totally different question to talk about upgrading them. What we are doing is try to identify other areas which might need rural health centres. And if that becomes the case, I would build new ones but in the same line as the current ones.

And, indeed, Sir, I would like to take the opportunity to also state that my ministry is in the process of rehabilitation of current rural health centres and so, extensions to the ones that are rehabilitated may take a bit of time since we still have not yet finished rehabilitating the existing ones.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr C. T. A. Banda (Mkaika): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health, in about 1998, came up with a policy to discontinue the construction of rural health centres and came up with a choice to do health posts. I just want the hon. Minister to indicate the justification for this change of policy which, in fact, up to date, has not been implemented.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I wish to say that we have not discontinued building rural health centres but as a ministry, we have decided that we first rehabilitate the current rural health centres, because we cannot leave rural health centres unrehabilitated and go on to build new infrastructure.

Secondly, with regards to the health posts, I wish to inform the House that the programme is on, and if hon. Members care to look in the budgetary provisions, they will find that already the ministry did budget for at least a billion towards construction of health posts.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Kamanga (Lumezi) Mr Speaker, arising from the inadequate answer, by upgrading we mean that each clinic or each rural health centre kit in each clinic caters for so many people. When are they going to upgrade these rural health centres so that the correct number of rural health centre kits are sent to these rural health centres to cater for the current population?

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member incidentally does not seem to understand that if he is talking about upgrading he is talking about moving the rural health centre to a hospital.

Interruptions.

Mr Mwansa: If he is talking about increasing the drug tools, that depends on the population in the area and that is something we are working on.

I thank you, Sir.

PRESIDENTIAL HOUSING INITIATIVE

47. Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how many doctors and nurses in rural and urban areas have benefited from the Presidential Housing Initiative.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Miss Kalenga): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that three medical doctors and three nurses benefited from the Presidential Housing Initiative Programme in Lusaka. It is expected that more will benefit as the project expands to rural areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L Phiri: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister give the time limit of when nurses in rural areas will also benefit.

Miss Kalenga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member was not in the House last week when a similar question came and we said that the first programme for Presidential Housing Initiative was starting in Zambezi and when it starts, people in the rural areas will benefit.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

MOBILE CLINICS 

48. Mr Mweni asked the Minister of Health when mobile clinics will be introduced in the Lupososhi Parliamentary Constituency.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I wish to say that the stated policy of the Ministry of Health is to build health posts and clinics in under-served areas. The districts undertake outreach activities to under served areas which is in the form of Mobile Clinics but that is not the policy of the Government and the Government intends in those places to build health posts.

I thank you, Sir.

POLICE OFFICERS

49. Mr L. L Phiri asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

    (a)    how many serving police officers died between January, 1996 and December, 2000;

    (b)    how many have been paid their full benefits; and

    (c)    how much is required to pay off those that have not yet been paid.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Hatembo): Mr Speaker, there were 1,800 serving police officers who died between January, 1996 and December, 2000. There are 518 Police Officers who have been paid their full benefits by the Pensions Board; and there is need to secure K2,500,000,000 to pay off those who have not yet been paid.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister when exactly they will pay off those people as their relatives are dying because of poverty.

Mr Hatembo: Mr Speaker, when I was answering question (c) I said, there was need to secure K2.5 billion meaning there is need to pay these people when money is available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkabika (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell the House why there is a high rate of deaths in the Zambia Police.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Machungwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Kapiri Mposhi would need to understand the demographics in the country with regard to deaths before making such a statement because we believe this is normal.

I thank you, Sir.

RETIRED TEACHERS

50. Mr L. L. Phiri asked the Minister of Education:

    (a)    how many teachers retired between January, 1996 and December, 2000; and 

    (b)    how many have been paid their full benefits.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Mmembe): Mr Speaker, a total number of 2,268 teachers retired between January, 1996 and December, 2000 and the following is the breakdown of retired teachers year by year:

Table i

Mr Speaker, we requested the Pensions Board to provide the actual number of teachers who have been paid their full benefits and that information has not reached us yet.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shimonde (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, considering that there is a shortage of teachers in this country, is the ministry thinking of putting these retired teachers on contract so that they can beef up the operations?

Mr Mmembe: Mr Speaker, there is a provision where retired teachers are actually taken on contract.

I thank you.

Dr Kamata (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, my question is similar to the previous one. I wish to know how many of these retired teachers have already been deployed in schools considering the shortage of teachers.

The Minister of Education (Brigadier-General Miyanda): Mr Speaker that is an entirely new question. That is not what the original question was asking. The Deputy Minister has replied but if the hon. Member wants this other information to be made available, then we have to go again and research.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, we have been given a big number of retired teachers. Could the hon. Minister shade light if they have fully deployed those who were not on payroll to replace those who have retired.

Brigadier-General Miyanda: Mr Speaker, that is another way of raising a different question but I will assist the hon. Member by saying that we are aware of the indirect question he is asking which is that can you please, put teachers on the payroll quickly. I have previously explained that the old system is what was causing this problem. There was too much bureaucracy but now this has been reversed. But, Sir, I cannot say definitely that all of them have been put on the payroll but steps have been taken now and this is being done as an on-going exercise.

I thank you, Sir.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 67/01 - (Ministry of Tourism - Headquarters - K23,370,907,996)

Major Kamanga (Lumezi): Mr Chairman, sometimes I wonder whether these debates are just for the sake of talking because this ministry is one of those that will help to generate foreign exchange for this country. Very little attention is being paid to it. The money allocated to this ministry is inadequate. We have time and again asked the Government to show seriousness in our moving away from a mono-economy to an economy that will depend on many other areas that can generate funds like tourism. Alas, our wishes to see the Government take drastic steps in the right direction are not being listened to.

The roads in these tourist areas require to be worked on. We have seen funds allocated for roads rehabilitation, but they are never released to rehabilitate roads in these areas. Yet, we expect to generate funds from there. 

We have roads leading to lodges and hotels in some of these tourist areas that have not been graded for a long time and the standards are appalling. I would like the hon. Minister, as he stands up, to inform us about what he is doing about upgrading the hotels. In fact, he should tell us that those hotels that do not meet certain standards cannot charge above a certain figure. This will help us raise the standards of hotels in our country and, thereby, call in more tourists to come to our country because they know that they are going to stay in places of high standard.

Mr Chairman, what was happening in the first seven years is about to happen again in this ministry. When a hon. Minister was appointed to a new ministry, he went there changed the boards and put in his own people. When the next one comes in, he changes the board and puts in his own people. This is an institution. You are supposed to go there to work. You do not have to choose whom you are going to work with. It is like us who have been elected to these important offices here. We will not choose who are going to work with us in our constituencies.

Mr Chairman, I wish to quote one of the speeches that was given by the new Minister of Tourism, when he was addressing donors and ZAWA. It says and I quote:

    “I have taken time to cross-check the security acceptance of recommended candidates. ..."

Mr Chairman, this was after ZAWA or the ministry had advertised positions in ZAWA. They filled up all the positions except that of the Director-General. The quotation continues as follows:

    " On the basis of my findings, I have accessed the position of Director-General to be re-advertised as well as the position of Director for Research and Planning which was already filled. The positions of Director for Finance and Corporate Services, Game Management Areas and Conservation and Management have been filled and are awaiting security clearance while the search for a suitable candidate for the critical position of Director of Commercial Services continues.” 

Mr Chairman, what security clearance? These people have been working for the Ministry of Tourism for many years and they are Zambians. Now, you want to change them. He says from his findings. Which findings? He has just gone there. Let us not go back to the old system. When you come in, you want to bring in your people to be chairmen and committee members of these institutions. These are not your homes or companies.

I appeal to the Government to stop this. Where are we getting? Are these people being taken to be fighting with others or people that you do not want. If that is the case, then I am afraid, you, as a Government are heading in very wrong direction. Let us allow our institutions to operate the way they are supposed to. These are not our personal companies. This is the Government. ZAWA is still Government.

Mr Chairman, the issue of wildlife police officers is one that is worrying. A number of them were laid off and this has resulted in an increase in poaching in all game management areas, including national parks. We have heard, for more than one year now, that you are reviewing the situation. By the time you will have finished reviewing the situation, the animals will have finished. And you, the hon. Ministers of this particular ministry are party to this poaching because you have allowed a situation where you cannot fill the positions that have fallen vacant and you are happy because you are eating well. If you are not, fill these vacancies.

Sir, the wildlife police officers are unable to carry out patrols. They are not employed to stay in their camps. They are supposed to patrol, check the animals and ensure that the animals are not being harassed by people like Hon. Michael Sata through his henchmen.

Laughter.

Major Kamanga: Mr Chairman, this is our national treasure. Give them money to go on patrols. You look at all these game management areas and the camps that are there. There are no vehicles. If there are vehicles, they are limping. They have not fuel. What is happening? You are talking about conserving wildlife. How are you going to conserve it? In the meantime, the senior staff at ZAWA have got Landrovers and so on. These are supposed to be used by the people on the ground. They are supposed to buy bicycles for these people. Alas, such goodwill from us is falling on deaf ears.

Mr Chairman, the staff require uniforms. They are wearing patapatas. How can you operate in the bush, while wearing patapatas?Let us be sympathetic. If we are going to generate funds from this particular ministry, let us make sure that our wildlife police officers are well dressed and well equipped. You have given them good guns but go out there, you will find that each game scout has, probably, only ten rounds with an automatic weapon. Just because he has an automatic weapon, you expect them to operate properly. Give them enough ammunition.

I also wish to appeal to the Government that wildlife police officers be given free licences to kill animals for their own well-being. There are no butcheries there and no heads of cattle. Their only means of eating meat is by them being allowed to hunt wildlife in these areas.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Muloji (Chavuma): Mr Chairman, you will excuse me. I have a bit of flu. So, my voice may sound hoarse.

Mr Chairman, I would like to join my colleague who has just spoken that this is a very important ministry and it is high time the good men working at the ministry do their job with impartiality.

Mr Chairman, I am surprised that ten years of the MMD Government with all its good intentions, the locals, starting from the villagers to the hon. Members of Parliament, have not been encouraged or given any incentives to go into game ranching and any related field.

Most of the white expatriates have been found to be dominating this field. In this way, there has been Government-authorised discrimination. The very rare species of our animals have been allowed to be exported live. Why can you not encourage the foreigners to come and see our tourism? For example, if there is one species which is not available in America and it is only found in Zambia, due to the hunger of money, Zambia exports that one type of species which is the only golden opportunity of Zambia to bring the foreigners to our door steps. Why can we not attract them to come and view animals from here? Like my hon. colleague from Chama said, where are we going?

So, I am urging the hon. Minister and his staff that we, the locals that have the interest, should be empowered by certain incentives so that we go into the business of game or safari ranching instead of concentrating on those who are already rich. When are we going to be rich ourselves? Everybody here would like to live well.

Mr Chairman, the ministry and the officials may not know this, but adding to the poaching element that Hon. Major Kamanga talked about, there is something that I found out which may be strange, but is happening. I would call this diplomatic poaching. I witnessed the incident where I do not think anybody sane enough would really think a diplomat who has been in Zambia and he wants to go to visit Mongu would find himself twenty-five kilometres in the Kafue National Park or Game Management Area (GMA) on Mumbwa Road and give an excuse that he is lost and that he wants to go to Mongu.

Last year, I was privileged to hunt in the Mumbwa West Game Management Area. There were two diplomats with registered land cruisers who came to that area and said they were lost and wanted to go to Mongu. Unfortunately, the scout that I was with was unprofessionally stupid because he did not note down the numbers of these vehicles. I do not believe that a diplomat who has been in Zambia even for one week can get lost. 

If he is a new person, he is supposed to have an escort to go to Mongu. But, after clearing one road-block, they were found in Nangoma which is twenty-five kilometres from the main road. That is when they said they were lost. Are we so diplomatically blind that we cannot state who is our enemy? This diplomatic poaching must be checked. The diplomats are never checked at road-blocks and under the diplomatic immunity, they are poaching and they are getting away scot-free. This must be stopped.

Mr Chairman, I will now come to the question of discrimination in lodges. These lodges could be hunting safaris or whatever they are. It is discouraging that you have your kwacha to spend, but certain lodges would insist on dollar. We have only got one official currency which is the kwacha. If we find that the kwacha is becoming valueless, why can we not change to the dollar? We cannot be discriminated against left and right in our own country and hon. Ministers and other officials are there. They are just strict in giving out licences. What has gone wrong with the kwacha? We must check and make sure that discrimination concerning the use of money should be stopped because as long as people are qualified and have the capacity to enter into these GMAs, they must be respected and treated equally.

The last point, I would like to come to is the ZAWA administration. It is a new concept and it makes sense to have a new authority to take care of our animals but, Sir, I am surprised to find that the salaries of the staff are discriminatory. The salary of the Director-General, for example ...

Mr Matutu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: Order! Will you, please, continue.

Laughter.

Mr Muloji: I was saying that the gap between the salary of the Director-General of ZAWA compared to the least paid man in ZAWA is too wide. The Director-General’s salary is at US$9,000 and the lowest man who is doing the donkey work is getting K500,000. By the Zambian standards, you may think that the scout gets a lot of money but if you convert the same US$9,000 to kwacha per month, that comes close to K30 million. How many scouts would you pay from one Director? What is he directing that he could get so much money? 

He does not even visit the bush because he is scared of being stung by a tsetse fly. Who negotiates for these salaries and who is benefiting? This is what Hon. Major Kamanga was talking about. It will encourage the people who appoint to put their own relatives and friends so that they get, maybe, a percentage. Maybe, the hon. Minister gets K1 million per month and the Director gets K30 million per month. What sanity is there?

Mr Matutu: There is no sanity.

Mr Muloji: This is corruption. Let us get up and start seeing what we are doing. There is no need to pretend that we are here to make laws. We want to make good laws and be sane. Otherwise, if we are not well remunerated, definitely even the most holy man would be jealous. Where is Pastor Pule?

Laughter.

Mr Muloji: Money is the source of all evil. We are all here to serve. But without serving we cannot reach our people.

So, I believe that while you are making conditions good for the staff in the field, let us not over-reward people to the extent that the boss is jealous. As far as I am concerned, it does not make sense that you have a big title and no faranga attached to it. That is not sanity. It is high time this country woke up to realities. It is a pity I would not want to give examples but this House, in itself, is a big example.

So, those that are being supervised by hon. Ministers must equally fall under the hon. Ministers’ jurisdiction. The Government should not make the Director’s job look too attractive. If all of us apply to become Director then there will be no hon. Ministers left.

Laughter.

Mr Muloji: With these few words, Sir, I seriously think that somebody somewhere must wake up.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Miti (Vubwi): Mr Chairman, I will start by saying that if you want visitors to like your home, you must keep it clean. If you want visitors to enjoy the surroundings of your home, keep them clean. If you keep your house dirty, even your own brother will not like coming near you. I am saying this because the state of some of our lodges and hotels is appalling, to say the least.

I will give an example. Many people have ignored Lusaka Hotel that is in the city centre or capital city of the Republic of Zambia. 

Hon. Government Member: It has improved.

Mr Miti: Yes, it has improved but when you look at the people around there, you have no impression of what could be inside that hotel. I wonder whether the Ministry of Home Affairs has really done its job to clear the unwanted characters that make that hotel look like another shebeen in Kanyama Compound. 

Mr Chairman, I would like to emphasise the point that we need standards to be improved in our hotels and lodges because only then can we attract tourists to come to Zambia. As my colleagues have already pointed out, tourism is a sure foreign exchange earner. The reports that have been going round in many circles indicate the amount of money that Zambia is earning through tourism and it is one ministry or sector which needs a lot of support.

Mr Chairman, I also want to say that we have a number of lodges which, in my view, the Government must take over if they are not being run properly. We have lodges which are being run under the pretext that they are being rehabilitated and one of them is Chichele Lodge. You can hardly see any rehabilitation taking place and you really wonder whether anything serious is being done by the owners of that lodge. I know that there are many others like that. So, what we are saying is that if there is a situation where people fail to rehabilitate lodges that they are renting or bought, please, can the Government come in to ensure that we attract more tourists in such areas because Zambia’s pride lies in its natural resources.

Mr Chairman, I want to say something about tour packages. Tourists pay for the package before they arrive into the country whether or not they will reside in this country. I am reminded of the coupon days here. Why not pay upon arrival in the country so that we have the cash coming into the coffers of the Zambian Government? This needs to be considered and I hope that the hon. Minister will enlighten us on this issue.

Mr Chairman, Zambians are not enjoying much of the tourist attractions. Surely, I know that even hon. Members here would want to go into Luangwa and Kafue National parks and even to other parks to see for themselves the beauty of this country but they are failing. Why are they failing? They are failing because of the fees involved. 

In other countries, you have a situation in which these packages are classified. You have packages for foreigners proper who will leave Britain, India or wherever to just come and do nothing but tour. Surely, you cannot expect to charge such people the same package as a Zambian from Vubwi, for argument’s sake, who wants to go to the Kafue National Park. So, I urge that something must be done to classify the packages so that Zambians can be given the opportunity to tour these tourist places in the country. Only when we do that shall we be very sincere with the promotion of tourism in this country and that is why I started by saying we must clean up our homes before we can invite visitors who will like and enjoy the environment in our homes.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Nondo (Katombora): Thank you, Mr Chairman. I rise to support the Vote on the Ministry of Tourism.

Mr Chairman, tourism means unique beauty, man made or natural environment. May I be allowed to emphasise the point that Hon. Miti has just made. I am on record in this House as having said that we should encourage competition among the towns in cleanliness because I believe that tourism in this nation is in every town and village. I have seen visitors in villages and towns. I know that we have focused destinations like Livingstone, Mfuwe and others but I am sure we have visitors in every town, hence the need for cleanliness. Let us clean our surroundings. Let us clean our towns. No one will come to a country which is diseased and has cholera because of dirt. 

Mr Chairman, man-made tourist attractions can come about through unique buildings. We have new districts like Kazungula with potential in tourism. Let us construct buildings in such a way that when someone visits for the first time, they will want to come back again.

Mr Chairman, some tourists abuse our young ones or the youth making them drug pushers, drug abusers, and forcing them into sexual activities with dogs.

Hon. Government Members: Is that so?

Mrs Nondo: It was in the papers. Someone, I am sure, was deported. I recommend that if such a person is found and apprehended, he should not be deported but should face the law of this land. We would rather have that person punished here before he is deported.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Nondo: when someone is deported, you are not sure whether he is going to be punished where he is going. So, we would rather have him punished locally here.

Mr Shimonde: Hear, hear!

Mrs Nondo: And this is the time to check on some of these tourist attraction centres like lodges and many others because we may not know what goes on there.

Mr Ngulube: Fyafula!

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mrs Nondo: I rarely talk and I never disturb anybody.

Hon. Members: Continue.

Mrs Nondo: I am saying so, Sir, because most of these happenings do not happen in ordinary homes. They happen in these lodges. So, I would urge that if we are to attract tourism, I am sure no young person will come to a country where they have heard that young girls are making love to dogs. They should be checked to see that these things are not happening.

Mr Chairman, I support the Vote and let this ministry be fully funded so that we make our towns attractive and roads reach our tourist destinations just like in my constituency where we have the Kafue National Park which we share with others and if you look at the roads there, at this time of the year, you cannot go there. So, how do you attract tourists all year round if we are not going to have all weather roads? Let us make our environment, generally everywhere in Zambia, attractive and reachable.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister Without Portfolio (Mr Sata): Mr Chairman, I rise to support the Vote but, in supporting the Vote, I would like to express my disappointment ...

Mr Sibetta: On buffaloes.

Mr Sata: I do not need a buffalo. We buy animals.

In the Second Republic we were told that these boards were under remunerated and they could not do their work. When the MMD Government came to power, we created three boards which are paid more than the President and the Vice-President. I am going to talk about these three boards; ZAWA, Zambia National Tourist Board and the National Hotels Board.

Sir, my biggest disappointment is that these people are very highly educated but, unfortunately, they have no capacity. The only tourist attraction they know is the Sun International Hotel and the Mfuwe National Park. I have travelled just like you and other hon. Members. Not every common person or hon. Members of Parliament will go and stay in the Sun International Hotel. I have been to Johannesburg and admired that hotel, but I have never stayed there. I used to go to Livingstone. I stayed in North-Western and New Fairmount hotels. Today, those are not hotels because the Hotels Board are not doing their work and I do not even know why we are paying them so much money. Maybe, it is because of liberalisation. There is not a single hon. Minister here who will stay in such hotels like the already mentioned ones. When Edinburgh Hotel was built, it was a hotel to reckon with. Today, we have to go and squat because these hotels have become disco clubs. So, what is the Hotels Board doing? 

If you go to Samfya, I have never seen any brochure from either the Hotels or Tourist boards about the Samfya Beach. If you go to Nchelenge up to Chiengi, when you look at that lake, you will mistake it for an ocean but there is nobody who knows about it. There are also Chishimba, Ntumbachushi falls. The Kalambo Falls is the deepest falls in the world but nobody knows about it.

The Government has been blamed by Major Kamanga and every other hon. Member. We said we would not segregate. Now, if the hon. Minister removes them, should somebody complain? He did so because they are failing us and I do not know when they last graded these hotels. Hotels are graded according to stars. They get more money and better transport than the hon. Minister and this is the biggest problem we have in tourism. There is nobody who knows what is in most parts of Zambia. The only thing we think of is Livingstone.

In those days when we gained independence, when we went to London, we saw a calendar of a Likishi, the Victoria Falls and the Vimbuza Dance where Hon. Zimba comes from.

Laughter.

Mr Sata: Sir, hon. Members are complaining about some of these things. It is not because the Government is not caring but because of this so-called autonomy and independence we have given to the boards ...

Mr Ngulube: Hon. Sata, we will see you outside.

Laughter.

Mr Sata: Sir, normally when people from Lundazi speak like that, they are very scared but I am not very worried about those things because when they dance Vimbuza, that is a dance. There is N’cwala this week, Kuomboka in few weeks time, Lamfya in Northern Province, Likumbi Lyamize, Lunda Lubanza and many more but we have not seen any calendar produced by the Zambia National Tourist Board showing these traditional dances. Hon. Minister, why are we paying these people? If we go to Mporokoso, there is an excellent waterfalls there with water falling on the rocks. It has not been publicised. In Kasama, there is Motomoto ...

Hon. Members: Go ahead!

Mr Sata: .When our colleagues in Zimbabwe talk of their traditions, everybody is there because they are aware of them.

Mr Chairman, when I went to Uganda, I took four hours to go to the much talked about Murchison Falls. There was nothing much to watch. We went to Naivasha. The situation was the same. In any case, the road to Naivasha was full of pot-holes. It was not an all weather road. If you go to South Africa, there is nothing special about Table Mountain. These places are famous but there is nothing attractive about them but our Muchinga Escarpment is so beautiful. The people on these boards are letting the party and the Government down. Hon. Minister, I know you are a very serious minded person.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Sata: We have to deal with some of these issues if we have to survive because in tourism, we need those people who come with sleeping bags. We must cater for these people. But the hon. Minister ...

Mr Hamir: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hamir: Mr Chairman, I am very worried and need a very serious ruling. What are involved here are public funds. Yet we are talking too much while our people are suffering. It is better to shorten the debate so that we can go back with the little we can save. It seems we want to continue talking until the end of March.

Mr Chairman, is he allowed to speak for so long although he is an inborn politician? Is he in order?

Laughter.

The Chairman: Hon. Hamir’s point of order dwells much on the debate in this House. You are here, Hon. Hamir, to debate and that is why you have to make your feelings known, that you are representing people. You must understand that in this Chamber, we have two categories, the back-benchers, including the Opposition here. You are the absolute representatives of the people. The Middle and Front Benches are the Executive. They are the only rulers, the governors of this country. So, you have to bring issues to them so that they are able to correct those wrongs which are obtaining in your constituencies. That is what we mean by providing good governance.

Will the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Sata: Sir, I am grateful to my colleague, the hon. Member for Serenje. In Serenje we have some very attractive hills and tourist attractions. What we would like to appeal to these people who are over-paid, over-accommodated and have more transport, is to do some work. They are spending too much time on computers, producing one document after another and once they produce more documents, you even find people like Hon. Kamanga ...

Major Kamanga: On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Major Kamanga: Mr Chairman, I need your serious ruling. When did the hon. Minister Without Portfolio leave the Government to mislead this august House that he is a back-bencher by attacking the Government? I seek your serious ruling, Mr Chairman. Is he in order, Sir?

The Chairman: I think Hon. Kamanga has just got a chip on his shoulder. If you have listened very carefully to Hon. Sata’s contribution, he is not blaming the Government. He is praising the Government for having created boards which have been given the responsibility of boosting the image of Zambia, but they are failing. These are the boards he is attacking and in that context, he is in order.

Will he, please, continue.

Major Kamanga: Mwawina ba constable.

Laughter.

Mr Sata: Mr Chairman, when we sit in the Front Bench, we are not going to bury our heads in the sand. When hon. Members of Parliament complain, where they are right, we admit, but where they are wrong, we clarify the point is. Hon. Kamanga, himself, in his contribution said, ‘Can you upgrade and look at the cleanliness of these hotels’ and that is why I am trying to explain why we have not cleaned these hotels. It is not the hon. Minister, but the agencies whom we have appointed who have failed the Government. So, I am trying to assist in one way because, for example, where he comes from, they have Lundazi Castle. That is the only thing in this country which nobody knows about and, therefore, Sir, what I am doing is to appeal to the hon. Minister, who brooks no nonsense, to act fast and guillotine.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushiba (Sesheke): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

I will confine myself to two areas of my concern. The first one is on lodges. Mr Chairman, I realise that tourism is one of the alternative means of raising revenue for this country, but in rural areas, for example, in Sesheke, where a lot of people are setting up lodges, there is an element of exploitation going on there. For example, first of all, the majority of the people who are, actually, offering to set up structures for tourism do not seem to be able to put up permanent structures. They would rather opt for something which has already been there or put up temporary structures, for example, like grass. I think there is no seriousness in this nation.

The other serious point of concern, Mr Chairman, is that the majority of the investors who are coming to this country to invest in tourism tend to have very poor hospitality for both visitors and workers. I will mention without reservations that most of the people who are setting up lodges are practising racism. When you get to a lodge, you are asked a lot of questions and in most cases, you are supposed to identify yourself and if you are black, like myself, you are always asked what you want or what you want to buy. 

For some reason, Mr Chairman, it is like the majority of lodges in rural areas are, actually, having lodges as a front, covering up for other activities. I will give an example here. Mr Chairman, in my area the majority of the white people who have put up lodges are, actually, looking for diamonds and other precious minerals. I will give an example of operators of some lodges who are always seen catching tiger fish which is known to be able to swallow precious, stunning and explicitly striking minerals. They take out the minerals like diamonds from the fish but then they leave out the actual hospitality for the persons who are working in that area.

So, Mr Chairman, I would like to bring to your attention that the majority of the people who come from outside, especially the whites, have special planes which land in ungazetted small airstrips in Western Province, specifically to pick up the consignments of diamonds which are extracted from the fish. These are not monitored because we do not have the capacity to monitor these small aeroplanes. The majority of these aeroplanes, actually, pick up precious stones and they are hiding funds in form of tourist lodges.

I think we should monitor the ways in which these white people operate in this country. Apart from that, Mr Chairman, I have also observed that in rural areas like Sesheke, most of the lodges are, actually, equipped with modern and sophisticated electronic gadgets. They are able to communicate with their own people elsewhere and you will not have access to them. They tell them what is available in a particular area and what can be exploited without us Zambians knowing. 

So, I would like that, in future, we have a monitoring system to enable us monitor these investors.

The other issue, Mr Chairman, which I would like to talk about is the Livingstone and Lusaka museums. From my experience, I have discovered that the museum which is being set up in Lusaka is going to be a replica of the Livingstone Museum because we are simply transferring whatever has been put in the Livingstone Museum over to Lusaka.

I would have loved to see a situation whereby Lusaka Museum goes into research and puts up its own input.

Mr Chairman, the third point which I want to bring to your attention is that of the lack of market for locally manufactured goods in the tourist industries. Most of our people in Zambia are trying to improvise by bring up a lot of crafts and other produce but they do not have anywhere to sell them. I would love to see a situation whereby our Zambian craftsmen and women are given a fair and a progressive market where they can be exposed to foreigners.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear, well done!

Mr Hamir (Serenje): So loving, Chairman to allow me to debate. 

Mr Nkole: How?

Mr Hamir: I very much appreciate that this is 2001, all of us have heartbeats ...

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: ... including yourself.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Mr Chairman, I am one of the founders in this nation. We went through the exploiters who came for democracy. All in all, my worry is that when we talk about tourism, I am one of those serious hon. Members who would like to speak the truth. I have been congratulated  by the new hon. Members of this House that I speak what we should speak. I should not be oppressed. But, you see, you do not move to the forum and think that when you belong to the family- It is nice to talk within the family.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamir: Mr Chairman, one day you will be a Speaker, do not worry.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: You are one of the powerful people in Kasama. My son is taking care of you.

Mr Chairman, I have a worry about tourism. One day, Hon. Holmes was here and I told him that. It is about a year ago. He never took note of it. That means he has an ‘I do not care’ attitude.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: But they love sitting in those offices and swing around ...

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: ... on public funds. 

I was travelling from Britain to Zimbabwe and Zimbabwe to Lusaka and the only item on television-Hon. Harrington, you must listen to this.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Sir, they only focused on Kenya. Who knows Zambia? Nobody! Why? We do not have powerful representatives in tourism circles. I will tell you.

Mr Nkole: Tell us.

Mr Hamir: Hon. Harrington was invited many years ago to see my house, where I live. Why do you move people from here to there?

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Sorry, I cannot remember where you have moved him to. 

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: But you see all these hon. Ministers here are stuck. It is like there is glue on their chairs because of luxury but the nation is suffering, Mr Chairman. 

Sir, my cry for Serenje is that- I have to speak for them. It is not singing about the Third Term.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: These are the ones letting down Chiluba. Aba bene aba. 

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: If they did well, we were going to do well. Na ma jacket twalafumya, iseni.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Sorry about that but, Sir, Serenje is one of those areas with the most potential in tourism in the nation. Why is there no road? Even from Kabwe you cannot reach Serenje. You will drown and die.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: They do not put a poster saying ‘danger.’ Balilala aba bantu. 

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: It means sleeping, that is how I can put in English.

I am not happy. We pray that God is with everything in his hand in one's life. 

Mr Sibetta: Islam.

Mr Hamir: It is not about Islam or inshala. It is one language of God if you learn Christianity. We do not say Jesus is the Lord, we say that he is a messenger. Ninshi?

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: So, I had to speak my mind because I came in 1990 and I have not seen any corrections and we have to make corrections. This 2001 balya balebomba -sorry to speak ...

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Mr Chairman, I am sorry I thought I was in ...

Hon. Members: In Serenje:

Mr Hamir: No, not in Serenje, I know where I am. 

Hon. Members: Where are you?

Mr Hamir: I am with a bunch of powerful people who can represent the nation. All in all, Mr Chairman, I again thank you so much for allowing me to debate. But, I just have three or two more points.

Mr Nkole: What do you have?

Mr Hamir: Is that what you are thinking? In fact, you are very stupid.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: I do not know how they even put you where you are. That is why you are not even a full minister?

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: I am going to write to the President.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: On a point of order.

The Chairman: A point of is raised. 

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point order. Sir, is the Government in order to accept and entertain delimitation from the Electoral Commission at this late hour?

Sir, we have been crying for nine years for an increase in polling stations.

Interruptions.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Sir, is the Government in order, to do that at the last minute when they have not registered the voters and it is in the rainy season? 

Is the Government in order and I would like to quote from the notice circulated by the Electoral Commission of Zambia Circular No. 1, 2001 which, in part, reads and I quote, Sir

    “The Commission shall seat at least at every provincial centre at dates and times to be communicated to you later, to receive oral and written submissions from stake-holders vis-a-vis the revision of the Constituency boundaries.”

Sir, is the Government in order to do such an important exercise so late in the rainy season just to confuse the people? The voters are not registered and many areas are flooded. Are they in order to do such a shoddy job and entertain such circulars at this late hour, Sir, from the Electoral Commission?

I thank you, Sir, and I will lay this circular on the Table.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika laid the paper on the table.

Mr Tetamashimba: That is the princess.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, let me pose a question. How many of you know something about this circular on delimitation?

Hon. Members: All of us!

The Chairman: Then it is very difficult for me to make a ruling.

Mr Hamir, please continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamir: I will start with my apologies for the strong words used, Mr Chairman. All in all, I want ...

Mr Nkole: Nalakukama pamukoshi lelo!

Mr Hamir: That is why the Kamangas were fighting. Look, we are not fighters.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Mr Chairman, I am provoked.

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: How do you like that? Anyway, I want to concentrate on your face. Muchibemba ati ifishilu.

Laughter.

Mr Nkole: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Hamir: Mr Chairman, I just had very good few words that yes, Hon. Harrington, the Minister of Tourism has understood. In fact, I have invited him. My disappointment is that I have been hinting to him because he does not want to listen. He likes to swing around like Hon. Nkole who is enjoying in Mporokoso. What is in Mporokoso, anyway?

Laughter.

Mr Hamir: Even the town is not there.

Laughter.

Mr Nkole: On a point of order, Sir. Point of order!

Hon. Members: Aah!

The Chairman: Will the hon. Deputy Minister, please, sit down.

Mr Nkole: Next time you say that I will spit on your face!

Mr Hamir: Do it now!

Laughter.

Mr Chikwakwa: Lelo ni lelo!

The Chairman: Order! Will you all please keep quiet. When the Chair is on its feet, nobody talks and nobody moves. 

A caution on raising points of order. Please, understand once and for all that the mere shouting of the words ‘Point of order’ is not a guarantee that you are given the Floor. Wait until the Chair replies to it. If no reply is made, then do not insist and the one holding the Floor should continue. This is the pattern of debate across the Commonwealth Parliaments. Hon. Hamir, in your debate, desist from annoying other people who may not understand your sense of humour. For that reason, I curtail your debate.

Mr Musakabantu (Nominated): Mr Chairman, I have one or two points to raise under this Vote. First of all, I do concur with some of the previous Members who indicated that there are lots of tourist centres in this country that need to be exploited for the purpose of increasing the flow of tourists in the country. Mr Chairman, I would not mind places like the Lukanga Swamps and places like Impwa Manzi in Mumbwa. I would like to encourage the Ministry of Tourism to encourage exploitation of these resources that do occur naturally.

Mr Chairman, the second point I want to raise under the Vote is that we tend to concentrate on foreign tourists rather too much. I think one of the functions of the Ministry of Tourism should be to encourage local tourists. We must inculcate in the young the habit of visiting some places of interest as a way of ensuring that tourism is supported, locally, not only by the foreigners. We should, I think, facilitate a creation of, maybe, concessions for school children, for the newly wed and so on, so that they can visit the various tourist centres in the country. 

Now, I would like to put two requests to the hon. Minister and the first one is that I am informed that the Kafue National Park is the second largest national park in the world. If this is true, I would like to find out what he is doing to ensure that tourism is encouraged in the Kafue National Park. I believe that since 1964, we have not done enough of harnessing of our natural resources in the Kafue National Park. We have a lot of wildlife, bird life, vegetation and I am sure that if local and foreign tourists were encouraged to go to the Kafue National Park, they would have a lot to look at.

I am also informed that since the Broken Hill Man lies in the British Museum and since the Zambian museums fall under the Ministry of Tourism, as a Lenje from Kabwe ...

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Sergeant-At-Arms, will you make sure that gentleman is out of the Chamber.

Interruptions.

The Sergeant-At-Arms escorted Mr Hamir outside.

The Chairman: Will you, please, continue.

Mr Musakabantu: I was saying that as a Lenje man from Kabwe, I feel I am related to the Broken Hill Man whom the British took out of this country. And since this country is now independent, I believe that Zambians must come home whether they are living or dead. I would like to ask the Minister of Tourism to ensure that the Broken Hill Man is surrendered by the Right Hon. Prime Minister Tony Blair. He must be handed back to the President and people of this country so that he stops freezing. He has been freezing for too long in Britain. I should be very grateful if the hon. Minister could comment on what he is doing to ensure that the Broken Hill Man who is now the Kabwe Man should be brought back home.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: Order! When Hon. Hamir was on his feet, I received a note from one of the hon. Members. As I was busy reading this note, I did not hear the insulting words uttered by Hon. Hamir against the Deputy Minister. This has been brought to my attention late. In this incident, the Deputy Minister needed the protection of the Chair. That sort of behaviour cannot be condoned in this House.

We should not be like other countries in Africa were they exchange blows in the Chamber. We have set up a very good example which is admired by all Commonwealth countries on the Continent of Africa and we should maintain these standards by all means. Anyway, appropriate action will be taken against the erring hon. Member.

Mr C. Ngulube (Lundazi): Mr Chairman, I want to say that the Government should not run away from its own responsibility. It is not the officers in tourism who have failed to perform but it is the Government itself which has failed to supervise their erring officers in tourism.

Mr Chairman, I want to talk about tourist operators who are paying money whilst in Europe to their clients, paying money in South Africa to their clients but have never paid money here in Zambia. They just come here with a little change. Zambia is not benefiting from this tourism. So, I tend to disagree with the Front and Middle Benches because we are not gaining anything when we are supposed to make a lot of money in forex but we are not benefiting anything at all.

These animals, beautiful rivers, lodges, mountains and hills belong to the people of Zambia. We are deprived of our own rights.

Mr Chairman, the Government should come up with a deliberate policy to make sure that the Zambians benefit. Sir, I would like to challenge the Government that in Luangwa, no indigenous Zambian has a lodge there. All the lodges there are run by whites. Even though we have liberalised the economy, Zambians should also be given a chance. What is happening? All the licences are being given to whites only and we are not benefiting anything.

Mr Chairman, the Chichele Lodge that you hear about is a sorry sight. This lodge was better before it was pulled down by the buyers. In fact, there was a Management Buy-Out which was supposed to be done to Chichele Lodge. Our own men and women wanted to buy it as a management but the Zambia Privatisation Agency refused and this lodge was sold to foreigners. When the structures were pulled down, new ones have not been rebuilt . We would like to see Chichele Lodge built in a better way than it was before. Sir, the people who bought Chichele Lodge have destroyed it and they should rebuild it. 

Mr Chairman, the roads in the National Parks and game management areas are a sorry sight. I do not know where we are going. Even the animals also need roads. How do the viewers go to see the animals if there are no roads? So, the tourist operators should make sure that they work on the roads and set up better facilities.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Luhila (Lukulu East): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for allowing me to contribute very briefly to the debate on this very important Vote.

Mr Chairman, every year we are told that tourism can actually sustain the economic life of this country but at the same time, you do not see some kind of corresponding action to support that kind of pledge. Mr Chairman, you will see this if you drive to the Kafue National Park, Itezhi Tezhi in particular which the hon. Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Namuyamba) is privileged to represent in this House.

Mr Chairman, in the olden days, in that part of the Kafue National park, there was Ngoma Lodge and, today, if you go to Ngoma Lodge, you will be lucky if you can get an iron sheet on top of any of those buildings. This is a very sad situation and yet we come to this House and listen to speeches on how far we have gone in trying to revamp this ministry to make it a viable industry to sustain this economy.

Mr Chairman, we need to travel to our neighbours to see how serious they take the tourism industry. If you go to Botswana, for example, which is a desert country with probably only three serious tourist spots or game parks to talk about today, you will find a good number of Americans travelling there to go and watch a special lion. I do not know what sort of lion it is. I do not think it is different from the lions we have. Sir, I think the only reason is that country markets itself and it invests in infrastructure in those tourist areas. The same thing goes on.

Sir, in this country you can travel 100 kilometres from here to Siavonga, a good tourist spot, and you will take two or more hours to get there. Do you expect a tourist travelling all the way from the United States, UK, Japan and elsewhere to endure that?

Mr Chairman, we need to be serious as a people and as a nation. We need to invest in this ministry if we have to make it a viable ministry to sustain our economy.

Mr Chairman, in my district, we have the Liuwa Game Park. You cannot even build a hut for a tourist. Who can travel to that wonderful untapped game park called Liuwa? It is beautiful but it has no lodges. There are no roads to that game park and that is giving passports to poachers. Right now, the amount of poaching happening in Liuwa Game Park by the refugees from Angola and by the people who are fighting, is really a disaster to say the least. So, Sir, I stand here to say that as a people we must be serious and know where to invest our money and where we expect that money to come from because we do not expect to get any foreign exchange where we do not invest.

Mr Chairman, I am not saying that commercialising our tourist industry is bad. If you go to Kenya, for example, it does not have any minerals to talk about but if you look at their economy, they depend mostly on tourism and you will find that their foreign exchange earnings are probably 90 per cent from tourism. Mr Chairman, you can see that as I am contributing to the debate, the people who are supposed to be leading this ministry and this economy are busy chatting.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: They have a caucus meeting.

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Tourism (Mr Harrington): Mr Chairman, I am grateful to you for calling on me to wind up the debate on the Estimates of my ministry for the year 2001. But before I do so, Sir, allow me to join other hon. Members of Parliament in congratulating Hon. Valentine Kayope on his appointment to Cabinet as hon. Minister responsible for Science, Technology and Vocational Training. He has certainly added weight to that side of the Government Bench. Perhaps, not political weight but certainly physical weight.

Mr Chairman, I also want to congratulate Hon. Chilombo on a well deserved appointment as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs. Mr Chairman, I have served in four other ministries and this is the fifth ministry and I want to admit that the Ministry of Tourism has been one of the most difficult ones I have had to deal with but I am grateful for the support I have so far received from my very able Deputy Minister, Hon. Cecil Holmes, Member of Parliament for Chisamba Constituency. He has assisted me tremendously to settle down well and helped me to understand various issues in the ministry. I am grateful for his moral support.

I also want to thank the ministry staff, the former Permanent Secretary and also the new one who has recently been appointed to my ministry.

Mr Chairman, I want to pay tribute, also, to hon. Members of Parliament for their very enthusiastic and lively debate on the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry. This is a reflection of their growing appreciation of the importance of the Ministry of Tourism or the tourism industry in Zambia, a sector which has the potential to contribute positively to our country's Gross National Product (GNP).

As hon. Members have already alluded to, the tourism industry in Zambia has the potential to contribute more positively to our country’s Gross National Product (GNP) but this can only happen if it is given the right budgetary and tax incentives. 

Mr Chairman, what we experienced here this afternoon shows or confirms that this has been one of the hottest debates during this current Session. This particular ministry has attracted the most interesting and hottest debates. 

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Harrington: Mr Chairman, I want to assure the august House that my ministry will continue to vigorously endeavour to pursue its mission which is to facilitate, co-ordinate and support sustainable tourism developments in international and local levels in order to make the industry one of the main contributors to Zambia’s Gross National Product.

As hon. Members are aware, it is my ministry’s aspiration to contribute sustainably to the economic well-being and enhanced quality of life for all Zambians through Government led, private sector driven, quality product development that are consistent with the protection of the country’s unique, natural and cultural heritage.

Mr Chairman, as I declared in my debate on the motion on the President’s speech on the occasion of the Official Opening of Parliament in January this year, our success in tourism to a greater extent depends on whether we can manage our wildlife and natural resources in a sustainable manner. The fulfillment of this responsibility, Mr Chairman, is entrusted to my ministry and statutory boards, namely, the newly formed Zambia Wildlife Authority or ZAWA ...

Mr Patel: Kimaleu!

Mr Harrington: ... Hon. Patel, the Zambia National Tourist Board (ZNTB),  National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC), National Museums Board (NMB) and the Hotel and Tourism Training Institute on Church Road here in Lusaka.

Mr Chairman, during the past few years, my ministry has continued to make significant progress towards the development of the Zambian Tourism Industry. The major developments in this regard have been a shift in the management of the wildlife estate through the restructuring of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA).

As hon. Members are aware, this restructuring process was set in motion by the enactment of the Zambia Wildlife Act by this august House in the year 1998. This valuable resource ...

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Harrington: Mr Chairman, before break, I was saying that valuable wildlife resources will now be managed on a commercial basis by extending autonomous entity while fully appreciating the need for preservation and conservation for future generations.

Mr Chairman, it is regrettable, however, that some problems had and have continued to be encountered during the transitional period as the National Parks and Wildlife Services is transformed into the Zambia Wildlife Authority.

It is expected that the financial benefits which accrue to the treasury from the consumptive and non-consumptive use of the wildlife resource will increase even further. These benefits, Mr Chairman, are already on the upswing as statistics show or confirm. Last year, for example, the wildlife sector generated approximately K6.4 billion compared to K4.5 billion in the previous year, 1999.

Mr Chairman, it is my ministry’s considered view that more successes will be recorded as it continues to pursue the policy of community involvement in the wildlife management through Community Resource Boards (CRBs). These CRBs are premised on the principle of Administrative Management Design, (ADMADE) as it is more popularly known. I believe that tangible benefits such as rehabilitation and/or construction of schools, clinics, houses for teachers, chiefs' palaces and procurement of hammer mills will continue to be realised through the Community Resource Boards Programme.

Mr Chairman, as the House is no doubt aware, our tourism industry is wildlife based. It goes without saying, therefore, that the wildlife sector has to operate efficiently and be strengthened if we have to reap full monetary benefits.

The Zambia Wildlife Authority formally commenced operations on the 1st of November, 1999 and became effectively delinked from the Central Government.

In the Budget Speech of January, 2000, the Government through my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development pledged that it would provide financial assistance to the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) for up to three years. This was a clear recognition that this new authority requires such assistance whilst it goes through the transformation process from a former Government department to a new semi-autonomous and eventually a self sustained entity.

I regret, Mr Chairman, that no formal Budget for the Zambia Wildlife Authority for the year, 2000 was ever presented by my ministry to the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development and as such, any funding which was received during the year 2000 has been on an adhoc basis and will only cover critical areas such as salaries. This state of affairs is undesirable and unsustainable to both ZAWA and the Government as little efficient financial and operational planning can be achieved.

Mr Patel: Interjected.

Mr Harrington: The hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central should not derail my presentation.

Mr Chairman, I wish to reveal that for this year, the Zambia Wildlife Authority requested for financial assistance of K8.7 billion to enable the Authority achieve, at least, its basic objectives in wildlife and conservation management.

However, the sum of only K3 billion which has been allocated means, therefore, that the Zambia Wildlife Authority will not be able to effectively achieve its objectives and this will be a serious constraint on its operations.

Mr Chairman, whilst the Zambia Wildlife Authority may continue to receive such further financial assistance from its co-operating partners to fund specific projects, and for procurement of operational and logistical equipment, their co-operating partners expect us to demonstrate our practical financial commitment to the Zambia Wildlife Authority as a Government.

In addition, Mr Chairman, the Zambia Wildlife Authority has presented a request to the Government through my ministry for assistance during the first six months of the financial year. The principle justification for this is that the Zambia Wildlife Authority does not have any income streams during this critical closed season for tourism and hunting.

Mr Chairman, whilst acknowledging the fact that in the foreseeable future, wildlife and such areas as the Mighty Victoria Falls will continue to be our greatest attractions, my ministry has also been looking at other tourist products that could draw a substantial number of tourists to Zambia namely; our rich cultural and natural heritage.

The two institutions that are responsible for the preservation and presentation of our cultural and natural heritage have been working tirelessly towards developing these heritage resources as an alternative tourist product. This is the main reason why their efforts were boosted last year by the Republican President, Dr Frederick J. T. Chiluba who donated generously from the Presidential Fund towards the restoration of one of our prized cultural and historical assets, namely the Livingstone Museum.

I am pleased to report that this institution which is the oldest museum and with the largest collection of artifacts in the country is now being rehabilitated. I take this opportunity to express my ministry’s deepest gratitude to the Republican President for his positive gesture.

It is my ministry’s policy and ambition, funds permitting, to build museums in all the nine provincial capitals. In pursuing this policy, we shall also encourage the private sector and other organisations to build museums of their own.

Mr Chairman, another attraction which has been recorded in the tourism sector in the past year is the US$56.5 million Sun International Hotel resort complex in Livingstone, our tourist capital, currently under construction.

The operations of this hotel complex are set to commence towards the middle of this year. In fact, I received confirmation from management that the date of early May has, indeed, already been set aside for the official opening of our prized development as MMD Government - the Sun International Hotel in Livingstone.

Mr Chairman, this investment will, no doubt, spur other multi-national companies to invest in other parts of the country.

With the tax concession for tourist accommodation facilities in Livingstone as announced by the Government in this year’s Budget, the town is no doubt set for a major tourist boom. It is an open secret that some of our southern neighbours are currently suffering from a depressed tourism industry. Victoria Falls Town on the other side of the Zambezi in Livingstone has always been hitherto a serious competitor to our tourist capital of Livingstone. But as a result of the tax incentives introduced by the Government in this year’s Budget, Livingstone is expected to attract more tourists to our side of the border, especially with the construction of the Sun International Hotel and other tourist developments.

Mr Chairman, as I have said before in this House, tourism in our region and, indeed, the whole world has become a highly competitive industry. Incentives are, therefore, no longer a luxury but an absolute necessity. I look forward to the tourism promotion incentives being extended countrywide in the near future. However, my ministry encourages even further and bigger investments by Zambians either individually or through partnerships with foreign investors.

Mr Chairman, I have a very important announcement to make to the House. Several hon. Members of Parliament have alluded to the fact that Zambians are not facilitated entry into the tourism industry by establishing lodges and other tourist attractions or facilities.

Mr Chairman, I am pleased to inform the House that work has reached an advanced stage on preparation of a new Tourism and Hospitality Bill which, in the main, is an updated and refined composite of the Tourism Act, the Hotels Act and the Casinos’ Act. This proposed new piece of legislation, Sir, will contain amongst other features provision for special incentives for Zambian tourism investors. It will also provide for the establishment of a tourism development credit facility. To provide soft loans at international market rates to Zambian-owned companies, companies that are owned by communities and those owned by Zambian women. We are gender sensitive.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear!

Mr Harrington: Mr Chairman, I intend, all things being equal, to bring this Bill before this House during the course of this year and, maybe, possibly during the current sitting. I look forward to the support of all hon. Members of Parliament for this progressive Bill.

Mr Sata: You have already got the support.

Mr Harrington: I am grateful for the assurance of my uncle, the hon. Minister Without Portfolio. That is a Government Assurance coming from him.

Mr Chairman, additionally, I intend to bring before the House another proposed piece of legislation to provide for the transformation of the Zambia National Tourist Board into a more proactive marketing entity. I recall that several hon. Members including my uncle, the hon. Minister Without Portfolio, expressed concern for the inactivity of the Tourism Promotion Board under my ministry. 

As hon. Members are already aware, the Zambia National Tourist Board undertakes  licensing and regulatory functions in addition to its marketing functions. Under the restructuring programme of my ministry, the Zambia National Tourist Board was to forfeit licensing and regulatory functions to the Directorate of Tourism, Planning, Management and Co-ordination. There was, however, the need to review this policy because implementation would deny the Zambia National Tourist Board extra revenue which it would gain through licensing functions and this money is badly needed by the board for its tourism promotion mandate.

Mr Chairman, my ministry will, however, institute appropriate measures in a bid to streamline licensing procedures and introduce a less cumbersome, more efficient and effective mechanism that is investor friendly. I expect that under the new modus operandi, the Zambia National Tourist Board will be able to market and promote the country better and thus avoid a barrage of criticism that is usually levelled against it of not selling Zambia as a tourist destination more aggressively. I noted during the various submissions on the Floor this afternoon on this ministry that several hon. Members expressed concern that we are not doing enough to market Zambia. I am the first one to admit that we can and must do more in the area of marketing Zambia both at home and abroad.

Admittedly, there are still a number of impediments to the development of the tourism industry in Zambia, the major one being poor road and other related infrastructure. Again, several hon. Members expressed concern that most of our prime tourist destinations are inaccessible to both Zambian and foreign tourists. I am, however, optimistic of the true concerted efforts from all stakeholders. These will be dealt with in the foreseeable future. 

The increased allocation in this year's Budget towards improvement of road infrastructure will have a positive effect for tourism development. As you are all aware, a certain amount of money has been allocated as confirmed in the Yellow Book towards road infrastructure and I am positive and confident that our tourist destinations will benefit from this facility.

As hon. Members are also aware, tourism is a very complex industry. It is complex because its success is dependent on so many critical factors most of which fall under the ambit of other line ministries. It is for this reason that there will be need for the establishment of an Inter-Ministerial Committee to co-ordinate tourism development in Zambia. 
 
Mr Chairman, I wish to reveal that I have already made a recommendation that such a committee be established to monitor tourism development in Livingstone District and I am working very closely with my colleague at the Ministry of Local Government and Housing under whose ministry the Local Planning Authority, in this case Livingstone Council, falls towards establishing this necessary Inter-Ministerial Committee. And I am also grateful for the competent guidance of the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs on this particular project. I am hoping that once my recommendations are approved, this committee will be chaired by the Ministry of Tourism. It will also be composed of the ministries of Commerce, Trade and Industry; Legal Affairs; Local Government and Housing; Environment and Natural Resources; and Lands.

Mr Sata: What about the party?

Mr Harrington: Maybe, we could co-opt the Ministry Without Portfolio.

Mr Sata: Yes.

Interruptions

Mr Sata: Ichongo iwe Sibetta.

Mr Harrington: Mr Chairman, I cannot over-emphasise the need and urgency for the establishment of Inter-Ministerial Co-ordination Committee, more especially for the Livingstone District where there has been and currently continues to be unsustainable land use allocation, especially to nationals from south of our border. Saddest of all is that land has been allocated in a manner which has no consideration for environmental protection which is an imperative for sustainable tourism development. This committee will be complemented by such stakeholders as the Zambia National Tourist Board and the Tourism Council of Zambia. 

In order to bring development to the door steps of our people, my ministry has established regional tourism development offices in Livingstone, Kasama and Lusaka for the sole purpose of spearheading tourism development throughout the country. Funds permitting, another office will be opened in Solwezi sometime this year. I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to display practical interest and work closely with these offices to develop the tourism products in their constituencies. 

Mr Chairman, allow me to take this opportunity to inform this august House that the solar eclipse which is expected to be experienced in Zambia on the 21st June, 2001 has the potential of attracting many tourists from all market segments. Through marketing efforts, the Zambia National Tourist Board via internet and other traditional marketing means, we are expecting even more tourists to witness this once - in - a - lifetime event. I have applied to issue a detailed ministerial statement on Friday, 2nd march, 2001. We are fully cognisant of the fact that if tourists expected in the country to witness the events leave with a positive image of Zambia, they will market our country through the most effective means possible, that is, word of mouth. This could translate into a substantial increase in the number of international tourist inflow into the country in future.

Interruption.s

Mr Harrington: I appeal to the Chair to ask the Opposition to stop provoking me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Harrington: Mr Chairman, my ministry is currently studying the Report and budget of the 2001 Solar Eclipse Secretariat. We have received the report of the secretariat established under my ministry and the proposed budget to ensure that Zambia takes full advantage of its globally strategic location for that historic day on the 21st June, 2001. 

Mr Chairman, in conclusion of my written statement and before I respond to a few of the issues raised on the Floor this afternoon, allow me to state that for this year and in line with the Budget in process and its requirements, my ministry carefully worked out and prioritised programmes in tourism development and marketing requiring a minimum fiscal outlay of K29,989,000,000, hon. Member of Parliament for Bauleni (Mr Patel) 

Regrettably, this amount has been reduced to K22,966,171,583. And this means that we may not bring about the necessary intervention in the sector for it to contribute meaningfully and positively to our economy.

However, Sir, I look forward to this reduced amount being released in full for my ministry to carry out at least some of its major programmes this year. Sir, I just beg your indulgence that I may be allowed to respond to the critical issues that were mentioned on the Floor and one of them is the concern raised by several hon. Members on non-certification and grading of accommodation establishments in Zambia. 

It is true, Sir, that the Zambia classification and grading of accommodation establishment was last done in 1995. I want to admit that this is not healthy for our tourism industry, but hon. Members should be aware that the expense of implementing and maintaining an official classification and grading scheme can be quite astronomical. I admit that regular inspection is carried out country-wide by specialised staff to ensure that standards are imposed and, therefore, the Ministry of Tourism, through the Hotels Board classifies and will classify and grade all accommodation facilities in the country in future as soon as all the financial and logistical requirements are put in place. It is a costly exercise which demands country-wide travel and unless we have the right facilities and logistics, it will not be undertaken as effectively as possible. 

Sir, the Hon. Member for Lumezi (Major Kamanga) was almost criticising the ministry or the new hon. Minister and previous hon. Ministers for dissolving boards whenever there is a new hon. Minister. Sir, I want to assure the hon. Member, although I can only describe his remarks as unfortunate and uninformed because any new hon. Minister who goes to a different ministry and discovers that appointments were irregularly done and that board members or directors who were recommended by whatever institution are appointed, if the Government is not satisfied with the credibility of those appointees, then the Government reserves the right to take appropriate action.

Sir, another critical area which I want to talk about is an issue which we have been addressing throughout the week and we have met with officials to make a decision on some of the privatised lodges like Chichele Lodge. I learnt sadly that some of these lodges like Lochnivar in Bweengwa and Chichele Lodge in South Luangwa which were privatised have been literally vandalised to the great disappointment of the Government. We have made a decision that we will repossess ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Harrington: ... these lodges which have been taken over by fake investors and left to be vandalised and deteriorate. They will be repossessed and re-advertised and we shall also look at the contracts and if allowed, we will take appropriate legal action against these people who have allowed these infrastructure be to run down.

Hon. Muloji said that the Government should encourage Zambians to establish ranches. I assure him that this is allowed as long as one acquires about 250 hectares of land and meets other conditions set out by ZAWA as per the Act.

Sir, when members are appointed to boards, the Government undertakes a screening process through the various security arms of the Government like Anti-Corruption Commission, Drug Enforcement Commission and many others. If we get a report which is negative ...

Mr Sata: Interjected.

Mr Harrington: ... Yes, I want to assure you that as long as I remain Minister of Tourism, I will make sure that ZAWA has credible management because I do not want reports coming to this House and I would be the same one being attacked by the people who are saying, 'Why are you firing board members and Directors who are appointed?' I believe in preventive maintenance not curative, Hon. Patel.

Mr Patel: Tell us.

Mr Harrington: There was an allegation of diplomatic poaching. Unfortunately, the hon. Member failed to lay them on the Table. So, it is difficult for me to comment, Mr Chairman, on that allegation, but we certainly welcome any evidence and we shall certainly look into the matter.

Mr Chairman, another final issue which I want to talk about - yes, I am very concerned as well and I want to agree and ask the same question. What is our economy benefiting from tourists who come here with coupons and stay in our lodges using a coupon because he or she has paid money upfront in London, New York and South Africa? This industry can create money for this economy but we have to put in place the correct measures, Hon. Patel. So, I have already established a committee of experts to see how best we can benefit fully from tourists who come here without anything in their pockets.

Interruptions.

Mr Harrington: With those few remarks - well, you are provoking me. When I swore here to be a Member of Parliament in 1994, I made an  oath of allegiance, Mr Patel, and I stand by that oath.

Thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Look at your Yellow Books.

Vote 67/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/01 - (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development - Headquarters - K11,004,150,382).

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika (Mongu): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this extremely important Vote.

Mr Chairman, I would like to emphasise that children are central to any nation and to any government and I would like to say, Mr Chairman, that a government can gauge how it is doing when it looks at the status of children. A government can also gauge the development of the country when it looks at the development of children. I would like to request the Government to assess itself on how it is doing by assessing the quality of life of the children and by assessing the welfare of the children. Mr Chairman, this self-assessment is very useful. It can be followed very easily by the judgement of the people, especially if they have all been registered to vote so that they can make their judgement.

Mr Chairman, I would like to emphasise that children are so important to a nation that their votes should command the largest amounts of the budget. That is where, as they say Mr Chairman, the tyre meets the road. That is the crux of the matter and if we are serious about Zambia as a nation, if we are serious about Zambia continuing to be a nation, we have to allocate most of the money to the young people so that they can grow and develop, so that they can become experts in our own country as well as in other people’s countries. We spend too much money on expatriates because we do not invest in our own children. Human beings made aeroplanes, robots, bridges and they do all the calculations for economic recovery, but if we do not invest in children, we shall continue to waste a lot of money paying other people’s children - people who invested in their children.

This Government prides itself in being a listening Government and it has received a lot of advice but I am very disappointed to say, in most cases, we do not see any change. Sometimes, that is why we are forced to even speak in parables hoping that, maybe, the point will be driven home.

There is an economic argument of investing in children. You invest a little bit, the interest is astronomical, but if you neglect your own children and you do not invest in your own children - I know that the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training is fully aware, but that was not the case a little while ago. Mr Chairman, if we do not invest in children, it is too expensive for us because we spend so much money in remedial work, with the police and in prison with all this crime and all these negatives. The economic argument of investing in child development has been calculated. There are also social and mental arguments, but in order to support the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, I want to emphasise the economic development saying that you reap what you sow. If you sow a little, of course, you will reap a little, but if you sow abundantly, you will reap abundantly.

We are rich in human resources. We have so many children and the population of children is getting larger and larger but we are not harnessing this resource so that it can develop our country. Even on these floods, we need experts to predict accurately. They can help us if we invest in them.

Mr Chairman, I note that the little funding that has gone directly to child welfare is centred around urban areas. Unfortunately, in programmes such as the Child Care Programme, Save Our Souls and the Child Exchange Programme, I know that once in a while in this exchange programme somebody comes from the rural areas. Sir, the majority of the people are in rural areas and the people who really need to benefit from this exchange, who are even cut off from the urban areas, are the children in the rural areas. The establishment of the National Child Council is a good idea. We need them in the rural areas first. There is too much congestion in urban areas.

Mr Chairman, youths are already leaders and tomorrow we will produce more leaders, but there is no evidence of investing in them, of supporting them and some of them are doing innovative creations but they are not getting any support and any facilitation.

Maybe, just to emphasise this point, Mr Chairman, let me quote from a very famous prophet who said, and I quote:

    ‘Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter. Woe to those who are wise in their own sights, who acquit the guilty for a trial and deny justice to the innocent’

In our daily bread of yesterday, there was mention of misnomers and deceptions. If I can quote:

    ‘God is not fooled by those misnomers, God warns against those who call evil good and good evil, deceptions, twists. Outright lies define the world of fools, but those who know the truth abide by wisdom’

Mr Chairman, let me share an illustration which I believe is going to be very helpful to the Government. This is an illustration of two families that were fortunate; two male headed households. What they invested in their children, what they sowed is what they reaped. Allow me, Mr Chairman, to share from the book by Stephen Lawson and the Title is We can make a Difference. We can make our world Different.

Let me quote these examples of two men who invested in their families, and I quote

    ‘A team of New York psychologists attempted to calculate the influence of a father’s life on his children and the following generations. They studied the lives of two men who lived in the 18th Century. The first was Marx Dukes and the next was Jonathan Edwards.

    Marx was an unbeliever and a man of no principles. His wife was also another unbeliever. What lasting legacy did Marx leave his family?

    Of the known descendants of Marx Dukes; 440 lived lives of outright debauchery, 310 were paupers and vagrants, 190 were public prostitutes, 130 were convicted criminals, 1,000 were alcoholics, sixty were habitual thieves; and seven were convicted murderers.

Because of time, let me just share with you what happened to the other man who invested wisely in his children. Among his offsprings for many generations, were 300 clergymen, missionaries and theological professors, 120 college professors, 110 lawyers, sixty physicians, sixty authors of good books, thirty judges, fourteen university presidents, three congressmen and one American Vice-President.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I would like to ...

Mr Matutu: Too bad!

The Chairman: Order! 

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr A. M. Mwila (Kalulushi): I thank you, Mr Chairman, for according me the chance to add my voice to the Vote on the Floor.

Sir, I am very concerned that in the Child Affairs Department this year, we have only allocated K240 million when last year it was K2.1 billion. I do not know whether we no longer care for the affairs of our children. I would have expected more money to have been allocated to this department.

Secondly, I am happy that the Youth Skills Training Centres allocation has gone up to K2.37 billion this year, from K1.9 billion last year. My only concern is the number of organisations under this sector. 

Mr Chikamba: Hear, hear!

Mr A. M. Mwila: We have National Youth Development Council, Youth Development Fund, Commonwealth Youth Programme, National Youth Organisation and so on. 

I think the hon. Minister will do well to harmonise some of these so that when they are streamlined it can be easy to monitor the expenses that go under this ministry.

Mr Chairman, my other concern is in the Department of Sport. The Government has spent so much money on football yet, we have not got any good results so far.

Mrs Yikona: Hear, hear, kulalusa fye!

Mr A. M. Mwila: If football is anything to talk about, it is worse now than ever before. We are losing even to teams we never used to consider.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Well done!

Mr A. M. Mwila: Now, FAZ, again, has been given a large amount of K130 million and the other associations will share a paltry K20 million. Sir, this is not sharing the national cake equally. 

I, would suggest, therefore, that more money be given to Badminton, Swimming and Chess since these are the organisations where we seem to be doing well nowadays. Our young boys and girls need to be supported in this field and I am of the opinion that we should look at other sports. Maybe, that is where our talent is.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries (Mr Chikamba): I thank you, Sir, for giving this opportunity to shed some light on this Vote which I consider very important.

Before I proceed, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Kayope and Hon. Chilombo on their well earned promotions of hon. Minister and hon. Deputy Minister respectively.

Mr Shumina: He is missing the back bench.

Mr Chikamba: Mr Chairman, to be a Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development is a challenging job.

Mr Matutu: Challenging one.

Mr Chikamba: Very challenging, indeed.

Mr Shimonde: That is where you want to go.

Mr Chikamba: First of all, you have to reflect on your childhood as a hon. Minister and your behaviour, and how you were developed from childhood to youth until you became a fully grown up leader. That is a challenge. Only then will you be able to see how you can develop that child and develop that youth for the good of this nation.

The second challenge, hon. Minister, is that you have to look at integrated programmes that are effected by the Government in ministries such as Ministry of Education, Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare, the Vendors' Desk and the Religious Affairs Desk.

Mr Chairman, the hon. Minister should co-ordinate all these programmes and make sure that there is compliance of these ministries in implementing the programmes that affect your ministry.

Sir, I think it is important that we look at the one important aspect of youth development that we have forgotten and this is the relationship between youth, child and the Religious Desk. Mr Chairman, you can have a beautiful car but if the engine is rotten, you cannot reach your destination. The youth of Zambia look very beautiful but their engines, which are their souls, need addressing seriously if we are to develop the youth of this country.

Mr Chairman, when we are talking of work culture, it emanates from the soul of a youth. When you are talking of discipline of every youth ...

Mr Madyenkuku: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Madyenkuku: Mr Chairman, I want to declare that the hon. Deputy Minister speaking is my personal friend, but is he in order to speak in a manner suggesting that he is making a lobby to the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, when in fact he is also part of the Government? I do not seem to understand the context in which the lobby is being made, taking into account collective responsibility.

The Chairman: Unless somebody tells me that my English comprehension is very bad, I have not, so far, up to this point in time, heard anything critical of the Government from Hon. Chikamba. He is talking about how the children of Zambia should be moulded into good citizens. I do not see anything wrong with that. Anyway, if you have noted something, please make a note of it and in your winding up, become very vocal and let us see what you will say.

Will Hon. Chikamba, please, continue.

Mr Chikamba: Mr Chairman, thank you very much. As a hon. Deputy Minister, it is my concern that we address the problems of our children and the youth and it is important that the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development takes note of the importance of spiritual power in the development of the youth. And this is what I am talking about. What we are experiencing in the sexual behaviour culture and discipline shows that we have not helped the youth to behave well. 

Respect of culture has to be taught by parents as they address the inside of a child. The way some of us sometimes talk and behave  is contrary to societal norms. This is as a result of the inside of us and how we develop from childhood. Our National Football Team is performing badly because of lack of spiritual energy which the footballers call psychology and therefore we have to address some of these important issues. 

The fact that we have children parading in streets, furrows and trenches of towns, cities and bomas is the highest degree of parental carelessness and negligence. And we have to address, as a ministry, the role of parents in taking care of the child and the youth. 

Mr Chairman, all these aspects are to be addressed by the church in consultation with the Religious Affairs Desk so that they do not leave it to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development alone. The church has a very important role. And this has got to be with the consultations with the religious desk. The Ministry of Education is the implementor. The Religious Affairs Desk should take a revolutionary approach to see that a programme of spiritual action is drawn up. Evangelists should search the Bible with a view to addressing the behavioural patterns of our youth if our youth can be a vehicle that will take us to a destination of development, socially, economically and politically.

Since this is a Christian nation, Mr Chairman, I would advise that we should have a committee on religious affairs which will enable the hon. Deputy Minister of Religious Affairs to make statements on the development of Zambia as a Christian nation. At the moment, it is very difficult because we do not have such a committee.

I wish to ask the Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Development to address the issue of behaviour ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Minister’s time has expired.

Mr Mfula (Chipili): Mr Chairman, I will only speak about soccer in this country.

We play to win and not to lose. Of late, we have been very disappointed with our National Team’s performance. One would understand, perhaps, when players were not given adequate allowances and they went and lost. We sympathised with them. But that is no longer the case. They are given sufficient allowances and we wonder why they keep on losing. I think a revelation is long overdue and I am glad that the hon. Minister is taking some corrective action to see that we improve. If we do not improve, then I suggest that, even before the report is out, FAZ must be dissolved forthwith.

Interruptions.

Mr Mfula: I am not saying that the members of the FAZ body must be dissolved. It is time they went back to the drawing board. 

We are sufficiently qualified to speak about the development of youth soccer. I remember, as a child, growing up in Mufulira and we had clubs in Luanshya and all over the Copperbelt. Soccer and athletics developed from clubs because the mining companies were interested. And I would suggest to the hon. Minister that we are now fortunate that the mines are back in action and they are going to make sizeable profits. We should go back and start negotiating with them so that they re-introduce clubs which used to be there. That is where the ‘Zooms’ of yester-year came from. The ‘Simutowes’ came from those clubs and I see no reason why we should not go back and negotiate with the mines so that we can start from there.

Mr Chibambula: I came from there!

Mr Mfula: Somebody came from there, he says, and I am grateful for that. 

We used to see young girls playing soccer and if we continued that way, we would be somewhere today playing in the World Cup.

Mr Chairman, if you look at the clubs where these people came from today, they have completely disappeared. There is absolutely nothing left. And if we cannot, as they say, teach them or coach them when they are still young, we will never develop soccer in this country. And so, I plead that we should not employ any expatriate coaches today, but if we have to, let us employ them to encourage soccer at school going age when they are still young. 

We do not see much of football in schools. It is completely neglected. During my time, it was on the timetable. Those who wanted to run, went to run and those who wanted to play football, played football but today, perhaps, it is only on Saturday. It is not compulsory. So, let us go back to schools and encourage schools to put it on the timetable. That is one of the most important things that we can do.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matutu (Kafulafuta): Mr Chairman, from the outset, I want to register my disappointment with the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Over the years, the ministry has been promising to rebuild Dag Hammaskjoeld Stadium. As late as June last year, the Permanent Secretary made a special announcement in the newspapers that some money had been found to start the project. 

Mr Chairman, the Permanent Secretary was talking of having sourced somewhere, around K113 million to start the project. To date, Sir, nothing has been done. All I have seen is a gravel road to the extent of 200 metres from the main road to the site. I am not very sure whether K120 million is meant for a 200 metre road from the main road. And this is all we have heard about Dag Hammaskjoeld despite all the promises that have been made on the Floor of this House.

Mr Chairman, from 1986 when this stadium was razed down, to date, nothing has been done despite so many promises. Even if we were spending just a little money every year, today we could have gotten somewhere. I am disappointed that today, in this Yellow Book, there is just K100 million budgeted for the project again to just do another, maybe, 200 metres of the road.

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: Mr Chairman, and yet we are talking of hosting the Africa Cup and so many other cups. Where is the stadium to host such kind of matches? I hope that the able hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development will source some money from somewhere for this project to, at least, get off the ground.

Secondly, for three years running, we have heard statements from various hon. Ministers of this Ministry that the Government is seriously looking into finding funds to put up two more stadiums, one in Lusaka and another on the Copperbelt. Each time you look in the Yellow Book, nothing of that nature is appearing there. So, when do you think this project will start? Is it next week or next year or are we just making stories in this House?

Mr Chairman, the other thing I want to talk about is the Youth Development Fund. I see K1.5 billion in the Yellow Book as Youth Development Fund. This works out to something like K10 million per Constituency. Five years ago it was K10 million per Constituency and the dollar rate was K500 to a dollar. Today it is K4,500 to a dollar. What will K10 million do to a constituency and what will it buy? One football costs K80,000 and that is the cheapest. Even if you had to use this money to buy footballs, how many can you buy? Now, Sir, if you have to form youth clubs in every constituency, maybe you have twenty wards, how do you divide the K10 million and what impact will it have?

Mr Chairman, through you I would like to urge the hon. Minister, whom I know to be hardworking and youthful, to seriously consider increasing this allocation. 

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikombe (Isoka West): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for giving me chance to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairman, soccer or football is an industry because money is made out of it. We are spending huge sums of money supporting our young men who are not performing well. They are not doing well. Sir, the late hero of soccer in Zambia, late Chitalu, once broke his leg and arm but continued to play football and finally perished for soccer in this country. Several other distinguished players in the country broke their legs and arms. They sacrificed. It is not just a question of spiritual energy but they have to have the energy and the will to put Zambia on the world map in as far as soccer is concerned.

Mr Chairman, you will recall the battle that is always there for countries willing to host the World Cup or a big tournament, they do so because they know that there is money involved. That is one way of promoting tourism in the country. There are several channels you can utilise and soccer is one very strong tool to promote tourism in the country.

Mr Chairman, thirteen matches have so far been played and only three have been won and the rest are losses. Even when our boys played last week with a make shift team in South Africa, they lost. That team was only in camp for one day and our boys have been in camp for almost three months practising soccer. Our boys are not doing well and we cannot find a new crop. Why should we continue to fund FAZ? I will be eager to know what the K130 million allocated to FAZ is for. You will recall that at one stage, FAZ made K280 million out of one particular match at the stadium here in Lusaka and so they do not require to be funded by the Government. If FAZ organised soccer well, they would actually fund themselves.

Mr Chairman, I do not agree with the idea of dissolving FAZ. What we need to do is to first withdraw from playing international matches and concentrate on rebuilding our boys by using the same FAZ because if we dissolve them, then we will have no team or management to look after soccer in the country. The Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development does not have sports officers in all these schools today. Sports officers are not there. There are teachers who have just sacrificed to provide sports or take the children for sports in their spare time.

Mr Chairman, I urge this Government to consider withdrawing from playing international matches. Sir, Cameroon, Nigeria, Morocco have done so before. They had to pull back to re-organise. I have said this before that, when we beat Nigeria here 5-0, they went back and disbanded their team and flew back here to come and find out how we had managed to beat them because soccer was well organised starting from primary schools. We have long forgotten that system and so we need to go back to the drawing board. We have to withdraw from playing international matches because we cannot continue spending so much money on soccer when we need medicines, when our roads are bad and when we need money for several other things of priority in the country.

Mr Chairman, today you cannot walk with your head high when you go abroad yet there was a time when we used to walk with our heads high because of soccer. 

Whether the economy was bad or good, our heroes played well. These boys we have now have no commitment. Today, when we read in the papers, some of them say they cannot play. My own young brother in Germany says he cannot play. And we just let them go. Why do we not withdraw their licences? We have got the right to do that. They have to sacrifice for our country. We are spending a lot of money to support soccer and we cannot just let these young men play around like that with us. They are making money for themselves. As long as they are coming from Zambia, they must sacrifice. I emphasise that we must withdraw. We cannot continue like this at all. It is not worthwhile.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama (Chipata): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this very important Vote. 

Mr Chairman, much has already been said but I have got one point to say. I stand here as a very disappointed Member of Parliament with this ministry. We were given footballs and netballs last year. The balls which were bought by this ministry are not strong. In my constituency right now, all the sixty-eight balls are spoilt and torn. They come back to me and tell me that they cannot cost K 5 million.

Mr Chairman, I have a got a big challenge. As you know, I am in a central constituency, which is Chipata, where I have very controversial people, my voters. I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister to consider or reimburse our money ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama: ... because K 5 million is too much. If I meant to buy those balls from Game Stores and elsewhere, I think I would buy more and better quality balls out of K5 million.

Mr Chairman, I would like to have a clear answer from our able hon. Minister on how this K5 million was used.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shimonde (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairman, my preamble is that the President will dissolve Parliament and Cabinet. I am saying so because even soccer, when we have tumbled, we must dissolve FAZ and the national team as well and then start afresh. The executive is not doing anything better. We are just tarnishing our name. We cannot afford to lose or to be beaten by a country like Swaziland which has got three million people.

Interruptions.

Mr Shumina: 1.2 million!

Mr Shimonde: 1.2 million.

Mr Chairman, we have a problem here. This problem is poor coaching. Just because a white man comes from Europe and says he is a coach, we do not even scrutinise him because he may be a school trainer. He is brought here to come and coach our national team. We do not cast the net wider to go into the villages. We have better players in the villages than the ones in the national team because even I can score a penalty.

Laughter.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: Surely, when the goalkeeper is standing and the chap shoots and he just catches it like that. That is a job. Football is business, Mr Chairman. We are spending taxpayers' money and the chaps kicks the ball and it goes into the hands of the goalkeeper. They should be taken for military training so that they are trained the military way.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: We need proper coaches like Ian Potterfield, Poulsen, Ante Buselic and so on. Those are the types of coaches. You cannot bring a brewer of beer and you say he is a coach.

Laughter.

Mr Luhila: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, I am getting worried at the way the hon. Member of Parliament for Mwembeshi Constituency is debating. Is he in order to claim that he can score a penalty when he cannot and change careers when he is actually a lead guitarist?

Laughter.

The Chairman: Will you, please, continue.

Mr Shimonde: Mr Chairman, these investors that we have and who are running dry cleaners in town today ...

Laughter.

Mr Matutu: After selling a GX!

Mr Shimonde: They have sold the GX and got machinery. My suit is coming tomorrow.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: Mr Chairman, we are paying a coach US$10,000. This, today, is almost K40 million. A Zambian coach is being paid K3,000,000. This is what makes our Zambian coaches lose morale. Pay them US$10,000 and they will do wonders but we bring a foreigner and pay him more and pay a Zambian less. Of course, he will not work. There should be transparency in how we pay out these monies.

Mr Chairman, coming to infrastructure, we do not have proper stadiums. The ministry should do everything possible to make sure that we have gyms. I am contemplating that we need gyms to keep fit. I am going to buy some boxing gloves because I can see a lot of Members of Parliament who want to start boxing ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: ... so that they can keep fit.

Mr Nyundu: Back benches versus Front Benches.

Mr Shimonde: Mr Chairman, we need to maintain the football grounds so that when the ministry invites another nation to come and play football, they should be able to play in grounds which are of international standard. The ones we have are very bumpy and have some furrows. The tuff should be maintained every now and then.

Mr Chairman, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for having instituted a commission of inquiry headed by the Acting Managing Director of Zambia National Building Society. That is a very correct decision because that man has been in sport for a long time and I hope that they will make sure that the commission’s findings are good and made public so that we all know what has happened.

Mr Shumina: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Shimonde: Imwe jealousy, kanshi ni bwanji bakalubale?

Laughter.

The Chairman: Carry on. Let us make progress.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: Mr Chairman, I was only saying that Mr Kamuti is a good sportsman who is heading this commission of inquiry on football. We need some profiles on the coaching staff so that we get those of good calibre.

Mr Chairman, the other point I want to mention is that we do not just have to rely on football. We have got tennis, boxing, netball, swimming, squash, chess, badminton, etc. All these need to be adequately funded so that we can improve.

The Kabwata Girls who are playing football are very fit. I am interested in the ministry organising these other teams to be formulated and be adequately funded. They are doing very well. They have beaten the whole world. They are better than the national team. They can even beat it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: Mr Chairman, I remember the times of Simutowe. We used to say chitapo chimo. Football is by inkokola and akankonki.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: The elbow. When playing, you must hit somebody with an elbow.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: When you take the ball, you must go and score but our players do not know how to score.

Hon. Members: Hammer mwana!

Mr Shimonde: It is true. You need kankonki or inkokola, an elbow but our boys are not committed spiritually and physically. They have got small legs and they are not fit. You must look at the physique.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: They cannot mark and they are too short.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: The coaches should go to the villages to look for physically fit boys who can play and die a little for Zambia, not to go there because there are allowances. They should play for the nation. I watched the Kabwata Girls on television. They are so good. They can even beat our national team. Even my local team, Nampundwe Football Team can beat the national team.

Laughter.

Mr Shimonde: We do not have players at all.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you for the chance.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Luapula Province (Mr Chama): In supporting the Vote, I would like to quote what my big man, Mr Walter Pitmans, said if my memory serves me right, in 1889 ...

Mr Sata: Where?

Laughter.

Mr Chama: Do not worry where. I will tell you later.

Laughter.

Mr Chama: What he said was and I quote:

    ‘The final test of a leader is to leave behind him/her, in men and women, the conviction and will to carry on.’

The responsibility of shaping up Zambian youths should not be left in the hands of the ministry alone. It is our responsibility, all of us, in here. All of us in here are parents and we know what it means to bring up a child to a level where it is going to be accepted by the society. Charity begins at home, Sir. If we do not take the issue of shaping up the children seriously, one day, they will rise against us and sing a song contrary to what we have been doing in the past. I would like to urge each one us to take this responsibility seriously and not to leave it in the hands of the Government.

Allow me, Mr Chairman, to say what I saw in the world of my own where God was conducting a church service on a particular Sunday. At the end of the service, he requested everybody to go with a parcel of problems that he/she has been going through since he/she was born. The next Sunday, everybody went there. You know our youths are the ones who go to church early. So, they all sat. When God came, he said, ‘where are your parcels?’ He picked one of the boys. He asked the boy to open his parcel. The boy went in front and opened the parcel. The boy said to God, ‘My dear Lord I do not have the wisdom in my brains. I am not intelligent enough and I do not know why. I have been coming to church every Sunday to pray but you do not seem to understand.’ What have I done? When God looked at him, he said, ‘Is that a problem?’ The boy said, ‘that is a problem my dear Lord’. The Lord said, ‘I will answer the question later.’

Mr Chairman, since I am not given enough time to continue, I will try to cut the story short.

Hon. Members: Continue! {mospagebreak}

Mr Chama: There were many with different problems which they presented to God, but let me answer this one the way God put it. He said, ‘I do not give wisdom to children. I do not give intelligence to children - I give to adults. If you have not been listening to what your parents have been telling you, then you are a total failure because you should have been grabbing what your parents have been telling you since you were born.’

So, Mr Chairman, when we go back into the field, let us take the responsibility during our campaign time and public meetings that we are going to address. Let us sensitive our children and shape them up into better citizens because those are the people who are going to take over from us.

Thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Madyenkuku): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for affording me an opportunity to wind up debate on Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry for this year.

But before I go into the issues pertaining to the Estimates of Expenditure, allow me, Sir, to join my colleagues who have spoken before me in congratulating the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Kayope) in his new role. I have no doubt in my mind that as he has excelled elsewhere before, he will live up to the expectations of the nation.

I also would like to take the opportunity to congratulate Hon. Chilombo on his appointment as the successor to Hon. Kayope at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have spoken on this Vote. It confirmed what is already a well known fact that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development is the most visible and passionate ministry in this country and that it is the closest ministry to the hearts of the Zambian people as has been evidenced by the level of enthusiasm that was exhibited by hon. Members. It is therefore, a great privilege for me to be an hon. Minister of such a ministry.

Mr Chairman, I would like to inform this august House that Cabinet approved the restructuring of my ministry last year and once Treasury authority has been granted, we will begin enforcement of this restructuring. It is envisaged that the new structure will make the ministry more efficient than it has been before. As usual, the role of my ministry will be that of policy formulation and monitoring while implementation will remain the traditional function of councils. Parliament is aware that there are already two councils in my ministry namely; the National Youth Development Council as well as the National Sports Council of Zambia. Arising from the new structure which has been approved by Cabinet, there will be created a new council to be known as the Zambia Council for the Child. this is the council that is going to spearhead all matters pertaining to children’s affairs.

Mr Chairman, can you now allow me to itemise the programmes that we are going to deal with in the year 2001.

With regard to the Department of Child Affairs, our main focus remains that of advocating for the protection of the rights and privileges of the children of Zambia. In this regard, we have set aside days when we commemorate the rights and privileges of children; the right to education; the right to a good health; the right to clean water; the right to food; the right to clothing and the right to shelter. These are rights that we must guarantee for our children as children that have been brought up in an environment where rights have been protected are bound to be better citizens who are going to be more productive to the country. The most significant of these days are the day of the African Child which falls due on the 16th of June every year and Day of Broadcasting which falls due on the 10th of December every year.

As usual, we expect that hon. Members will take these days very seriously. Unlike it has been done in the past, where the commemoration of these days had just been in the capital and provincial centres, we expect that the commemoration of these days should now be taken to the smallest possible community, township and village level, as the case may be.

Mr Chairman, as regards advocacy, my ministry will continue to promote the protection of children’s lives and welfare through radio and television broadcasts and production of certain periodicals working in collaboration with our co-operating partners, the International Labour Organisation. This year, my ministry intends to embark on a pilot project for the elimination of the worst forms of child labour. The pilot project will take place in two provinces, namely, the Copperbelt and Lusaka. I am glad to inform this august House that an agreement to this effect has been signed between the ILO and ourselves as a ministry in order to facilitate the actualisation of this child labour project. We shall endeavour to work closely with the Ministry of Legal Affairs in updating all laws pertaining to the affairs of children to make them more responsive to their needs. Further, Mr Chairman, my ministry will this year embark on a programme of creating three child guideline centres in Solwezi, North-Western Province; Ndola, Copperbelt Province; and Livingstone, Southern Province. 

Mr Chairman, on the Youth Department - Skills Training, my ministry runs fifteen youth skills training resource centres throughout the country. We will continue to focus our attention on providing life-long skills to the out of school children and those that have had no privilege to go to school, to equip them with life-long skills so that they are able to live independently and sustain themselves economically. Especially taking into account the absence of formal employment opportunities in our country. In addition to providing life skills training to the out of school children in our resource centres, we are also going to include in the syllabus life education which entails the inclusion of a holistic approach where we are going to talk about not just the fields aspect but also to equip them with the real life experiences so that the product that come out of there is complete and is able to meet the challenges of real life. 

We also intend, Mr Chairman, to create more youth skills training centres funds permitting. But as we await that development, we have also introduced short term modular courses which entail that the training available now will be extended to many more youths than the case has been in the past. And I would like to urge hon. Members to take full advantage of this situation so that in those areas where skills training opportunities exist, we encourage our children to take full advantage and participate.

The next issue which will continue to preoccupy us this year is the continuation of the provision of the Constituency Youth Development Fund. This is a matter which is very close to our hearts. My officials and I will ensure that these funds continue to be made available to our constituencies and we shall receive the instructions of hon. Members on how best they think in each year we are supposed to apply these funds. I am aware that there is an outstanding balance of K5 million from the 1999 allocation. It is common knowledge, I am sure, that the 2000 allocation has not yet been released by the Treasury to my ministry so that we are now talking about the allocation for the year 1999.

From that allocation, instructions were given on a voluntary basis to my ministry by hon. Members for the purchase of sports equipment which we did undertake. I do share the anxiety on when the balance of K5 million will be released. I am pleased to inform this august House that by Friday, that is tomorrow, taking into account that the schedules which were supposed to guide the basis of these dispatches were concluded yesterday, all moneys will be sent to the Permanent Secretary in provinces and hon. Members, upon recess, will find the money in their constituencies.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Madyenkuku: However, for this money to achieve the objectives for which it was established, I would like to urge hon. Members to ensure that they adhere to the regulations very strictly. Auditors from my ministry’s headquarters will continue to visit constituencies including the constituency which is not very far from here, Sinazongwe, because we are a very transparent ministry and we will ensure that those who flout the regulations will have themselves to blame. I am aware that there are a few cases of interest which we are pursuing but as we push for further allocations of last year and this year, I would like to urge all hon. Members to be more interested in the manner in which these funds are utilised. 

Mr Chairman, every year, in terms of advocacy for youth affairs, my ministry holds Youth Week Celebrations. This year, the Youth Week Celebrations will commence on the 4th and end on the 12th of March. This is an important week because it is a week in which we remember the achievements of the youth in the past, and their current achievements and the future challenges. It is also an opportunity when as a Government and as a country, we rededicate ourselves to resolving the problems that afflict the youth. My ministry continues to want to deal with the question of youth unemployment and to deal with the issue of lack of adequate employment opportunities not only in the formal sector but also in the informal sector. That is why it now brings us to the next aspect of what our programme directs us to do 

The next point is about the Youth Entrepreneurship Development Fund. This fund has not been active. This is a fund which intends to develop individuals. It is not a benevolent fund. It is a fund which, once we have consulted the stakeholders including our collaborating partners and Zambians the intended users, we hope is going to make a very big difference in the quality of life of our young people.

Mr Chairman, I am also happy to introduce a new programme to the nation through this august house. This is a relatively new programme which is called the Peak Performance Programme. Under this programme, we will train young people and those that have got retrenched or those that want to have a new challenge in life in really equipping them with new skills which must man the outputs and this is a programme which is going to make Zambia a much more efficient country in industry and in private life than the case has been before. And through the Peak Performance Programme, we have trained a lot of students, not only within the country but in the region.

Mr Chairman, kindly allow me now to talk about the Department of Sport. From the outset, may I take this opportunity to thank the President for facilitating Zambia's participation in the Africa and World Cup qualifying matches. I am in this respect talking about the participation of the Zambia National Football Team. It is, however, saddening that in spite of so much financial resources that have been put at the disposal of the national team, their performance remains a source of great anguish. This is the reason I constituted a special investigations committee. We want to find out what, really, can be done to correct the situation. There is nothing like problems being so obvious because we do not want to be presumptuous. My officials and I in the ministry and all serious stake holders in sport ...

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Madyenkuku: Mr Chairman, this investigation team will commence work tomorrow at 1400 hours. They will be connected to the Internet, Fax and telephone communication devices. They will be accessible to all those that want to make submissions, it is going to be the first investigation of its kind in terms of its expected efficiency and likely reports. 

I would like to urge hon. Members and all the sporting fraternity to give them a chance and not to be prejudice. This is why forthwith, I have banned all public statements by football clubs, members of the Football Association of Zambia and my officials that are likely to prejudice the outcome of these investigations.

However, all members of the public who would like to make submissions will be given a chance to make these submissions either publicly or in camera. I am happy to inform this august House that this afternoon, the investigation team is going to make or have already made a statement on how they are going to proceed in which statement, they are going to indicate among other things, where their secretariat is, what are their working hours and all the related details pertaining to their work. I have no doubt in my mind, especially that the committee has the full confidence of my ministry that they do a job we will all be proud of.

I had said that there is nothing like obvious problems. If problems were that obvious, it would have been so easy to find solutions. I am proud to be a Zambian because we have answers to all solutions on impulse. However, I am sure that with this report, our capacity to have solutions found will be further enhanced.

Mr Chairman, advocacy will continue in as far as awareness on HIV/AIDS among our sports men and women is concerned. Last year, we made a declaration that before the beginning of any sporting event, there must be an AIDS awareness message. This message will always continue to be given as long as members of all clubs of different sporting disciplines realise the importance of this campaign.

We are also going to offer counselling facilities to sports men and women who have been found to be positive and are living with HIV/AIDS. We shall continue not to discriminate against people that are positive with HIV/AIDS in the sports fraternity.

Mr Chairman, my ministry will review the current sports policy. This will begin by reviewing the current National Sports Act which has outlived its usefulness and I am sure that all stakeholders, characteristic of our process in matters of reviewing of our statutes are going to make the necessary inputs to ensure that we come up with a piece of legislation and policy that is going to be in conformity with our expectations.

Mr Chairman, Zambia is going to continue being a loyal member of the international sports fraternity. We shall continue to be affiliated to the International Football Federation (FIFA), the Supreme Council of Sports in Africa, members of the Commonwealth sports fraternity as well as other regional bodies like COSAFA which has just recently come on board.

However, to make this possible, we have to ensure that we pay affiliation fees as not being able to do so will result in our loss of votes and that is a very big disadvantage which we would not like to see. Only this morning, I received a reminder from the Supreme Council of Sports in Africa Zone Six reminding us of our outstanding arrears in affiliation fees. We shall do everything possible to ensure that we meet these obligations.

Mr Chairman, with regard to infrastructural development, I would like to assure this august House that our commitment to the construction and rehabilitation of existing stadia remains unwaivering. I would have been happy if the weather was not prohibitive to speak to you this evening and announce that, in fact, a foundation stone has been laid at the Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium for the construction of the club house that has been outstanding for some time.

It may, however, still be necessary to inform this august House that works for the reconstruction of Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium have just been held back because of the adverse weather which did not permit me to lay the foundation stone two weeks ago. I will not go there to make a mockery of the exercise if the weather continues to be in the state in which it is.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Madyenkuku: Nevertheless, this year we will start constructing a club house and immediately thereafter, prepare the surface so that steadily, the job of reconstruction of the stadium goes on.

I am also happy to have this opportunity to inform this august House that major works are underway at the Independence Stadium. We are improving the water reticulation system and we are looking at the security lighting and other related works that are going to make the Independence Stadium much better than it is today including repairs to the terraces and plans are under way to ensure that we expand the sitting capacity at the Independence Stadium here in Lusaka.

Sir, I would like to challenge hon. Members to take sports very seriously. They must not just give lip service. They must go out in their constituencies and mobilise our communities in the area of sports development. We can do a lot together to induce sports development at community level and even to sacrifice some of our limited resources to ensure that our young people in our constituencies have access to decent sport. We will continue to receive the instructions of the hon. Members of Parliament as they may decide to give us those instructions, especially using the avenue that is already in our hands, the Constituency Youth Development Fund and if it is the wish of all hon. Members of Parliament, the next allocations could still be able to afford us an opportunity to get more sports facilities.

I am aware that a lot of criticism has been levelled at the quality of footballs and netballs that we have received this year. We are prepared to listen and respond accordingly.

Mr Chairman, may I now turn to the comments by individual hon. Members. Hon. Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika talked about the need to invest more in our children. We cannot agree more, I will certainly endeavour to ensure that the distribution of opportunities continues to be as even as possible. She also talked about the need to go rural because most of our projects in Zambia, as she has observed, have been ending along the line of rail and she feels that we must go rural. We will do that. In fact, most of our youth skills training centres are in the rural areas and after the adjournment of Parliament, I intend to visit a number of constituencies where, among other things, I will be examining the possibility of setting up new youth skills training centres. I am sure that some of the hon. Members who may already have such infrastructure in their constituencies will exploit my presence in their constituencies and impress upon me and my officials on the possibility of setting up such youth skills training centres.

Hon. A. M. Mwila, we are very grateful for the observations you have made and your serious concern on the state of affairs regarding the quality of performance of our national team. You have gone as far as saying that the allocation to the Football Association of Zambia, really, in your opinion, is not deserved, especially that the results are not forthcoming. You suggest that, in fact, it might be possible that some of the money that we are spending on football today can be spread more evenly among other sporting disciplines. I think I do agree with you on that one. That is why when I was a guest of the Squash Association of Zambia under the patronage of the hon. Minister of Education, whose patronage is nice to enjoy because we work very closely. Very uncontroversially, indeed, I did make an announcement that we were going to spend a little more time and resources this time around, without having to necessarily ditch football, in ensuring that we spread our tentacles as widely possible as we can.

For this reason, my ministry did go a long way in helping some of our squash players who had gone to East Africa last year in competing in those international events and the boys came back with very good results. We are very proud of that. We shall continue to encourage such initiatives.

Hon. Mfula made very radical proposals some of which include the possible dissolution of the Football Association of Zambia. I did say that we are not going to be pre-sumptuous. We are going to wait until the findings of the report and we will try to adhere to the recommendations as far as possible. I want to say that we will attempt, as much as possible, to do whatever it takes in order to realise our status in football. Hon. Mfula also talked about the invigoration of youth football, enticing the private sector on the Copperbelt now that the mines had started waking up again, so that we can encourage them to participate in the sponsorship of football.

I want to say that in a related manner, we are also planning to set up a sports trust fund. In fact, a committee has already compiled a report which we are studying and we think that the Sports Development Fund will, among other things, look at the possibility of investment in infrastructure development as well as in the sponsorship of sport on a day to day expenses.

Hon. Matutu, I would like to take the opportunity to make a correction on the impression created. It is true that the amount of money involved was in the region K120 million. That was the money allocated to the project at the time. When my Permanent Secretary made the announcement, he did not imply that all that money had been exhausted. Far from it. In fact, may I take this opportunity to thank BP Zambia Limited who gave us fuel. Working together with the Roads Department of the Ministry of Works and Supply, we were able to use that contribution without getting into the budget for the Independence Stadium which has not been touched yet.

Hon. Member: Dag Hammarskjöeld Stadium.

Mr Madyenkuku: The Dag Hammarskjöeld Stadium, thank you very much. So, the Dag Hammarskjöld Stadium, in fact, is going to be worked on. The 200 metres or there about did not cost K120 million. The K120 million has not been touched. It was a generous offer that we received from BP Zambia Limited in form of fuel donation and we used the equipment from the Roads Department to make an access road. I hope that this impression which, if left uncorrected could be very dangerous, has been cleared. We will soldier on and ensure that as soon as the rainy season ends, works on the laying of the foundation at the Dag Hammarskjoeld Stadium will proceed. We are also conscious of the need to create many more stadia than is currently the case.

I said this when I was speaking to the nation through a radio programme that one of the reasons why we wanted to make a bid to host the Africa Cup of Nations 2004 was to create a need because creation of major infrastructure must be demand-driven. You must create a need on which basis you can mobilise so much public resources and you know that, in fact, countries like Burkina Faso who hosted the Africa Cup of Nations in 1998 did not have a stadium, not even one of the standard of Sunset stadium. Mali are hosting next year’s Africa Cup of Nations. At the time they won the bid, they did not have any stadium to talk about but because there was now a need upon being offered the bid, they were able to mobilise resources and we also thought that we could do that in a similar fashion. We never regretted our attempt. We made a very big impact at the Confederation of African Football. We made more friends who are ready to co-operate with us in future events.

I may not be able to respond to all the comments that have been made by individual hon. Members but suffice to say that all the comments that were made by hon. Members have been taken note of and we shall study them very closely. I am sure that I do not need to remind this august House that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development offices and doors are always open, not necessarily twenty-four hours, but for as many hours as possible. Please, this position has not changed. It is only further consolidated by the good rapport that we have cultivated today.

I would like to thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity, once again.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 78/01-(Office of the President - Special Division - K29,500,000,000)

Mr Sibetta (Luena): I am very grateful that you have accorded me this chance to participate on this very important Estimates ...

Hon. Members: Estimates!

Mr Patel: Hanjika mudala.

Mr Sibetta: ... concerning the Office of the President, Special Division, commonly known as OP.

Mr Patel: Shushushu!

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, it very disheartening that this unit has been performing below par. For many years, we have had factories, offices, including Cabinet Office burnt by unknown people. 

Mr Nkabika: Even Hon. Kavindele was worried.

Mr Sibetta: And no arrests, no prosecutions have been made. There is no idea as to who has been going rounding burning and bombing the country. It is very disgraceful. 

When you look at the Estimates for..

Mr Shimonde: Estimates!

Mr Nkabika: Leave him alone!

Mr Sibetta: Do not worry, he is a primary school drop-out.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, when you look at the Estimates for ...

Mr L. L. Phiri: He is a graduate, leave him alone.

Mr Sibetta: ... last year, K12.2 billion was approved by this House for this very important Head. In the course of the year, there was K50.2 billion unwarranted excess expenditure by this outfit. This means that 400 per cent unwarranted, unbudgeted for expenditure was committed by this outfit. And when you look at the Ministry of Education, Ministry of Health, Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources and you compare them on a prorata basis, you will shake your head when you find that there is something wrong going on at the ‘Red Brick’ because of all this money, K62 billion, which was spent, K52 billion was unplanned. 

When you come to this year’s expenditure, only K29.5 billion has been put aside for the Office of the President. Going by what happened last year, we are likely to see unwarranted expenditure in the range of K120 billion. When you scrutinise last year’s Estimates, you find that money amounting to K34 billion was spent on purchase of services. These include air tickets to and fro ...

Mr Nkabika: Washington!

Mr Sibetta: From time to time, our people are travelling for unexplained trips. In some cases the authorities in England were getting worried as to how many times our agents were travelling, sometimes, with uncleared meat. And that is a country where you have a lot of foot and mouth and mad cow diseases. What do agents want to do with uncleared meat? It does not matter whether it is game meat or beef.

Mr Nkabika: No it is poisoned!

Mr Sibetta: If it is poisoned for whom?

So, our agents must be smart. You do not need to be picked by foreign agents on such simple items. 

We need to spend money on education, health, agriculture and environment.  You know, Mr Chairman, our children in this country - in fact, our population, including the adults, have recently been said to have the highest rate of malnutrition in the sub-region. 

So, we are spending money for agents who do not produce results. We need to trim this outfit. I know that it was trained. A lot of these young men were trained in some very skilled countries which have beefed them up but, still, their performance is shoddy. If they were doing their job properly, they could have even advised the Government that the idea of going for a third term is a non-starter. You will just plunge the country into trouble.

The Chairman: Order!

Please, restrict you remarks to the subject on the Floor. Do not discuss anything that is not on the order paper. That is speculation. 

All right, continue and restrict your remarks to the subject on the Floor.

Laughter.

Mr Nkabika: Hammer!

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, I was saying that this unit must advise the Government properly. The country is not ready for division or for civil wars. It is a very important unit. It should be professional.

Interjection.

Mr Sibetta: I am a back-bencher. That is my job I am doing.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalenga: Continue!

Mr Sibetta: You should keep quiet hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting. Your job is to talk at Cabinet ...

Mr Kalenga: And the union!

Mr Sibetta: ... and trade unionism.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: My job is to address the Chair about the bad management you are doing.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: I am protected by the Chair. This is my job.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: If you are scared of telling the President that this unit is not doing a good job ...

Mr Kalenga: Resign!

Mr Sibetta: ... resign come and join us this side.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Pruning people in the middle of an election year will not help the unit. 

Mr Sibetta saw the yellow light on.

Mr Sibetta: Do not cut me unnecessarily.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Remember we lost eighty officers when the MMD came to power. Now, you are starting pruning in the middle of the election year because you do not want to hear what they are telling you. Do not plunge this country into a civil war, my friend, Newstead Zimba.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: Minister of misinformation!

Mr Zimba: On point of order, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi (Solwezi Central): I wish to thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity you have given me to debate on this very important Vote. 

Mr Chairman, I wish to support this Vote but in doing so, I wish to make some suggestions. The first suggestion is that I do not think that the name which this division has given itself is a good name.

Mr Sibetta: It is not appropriate.

Dr Sondashi: Yes, thank you very much my brother. The name is not appropriate because they call themselves ‘OP’ standing for Office of the President. For goodness sake, there are so many departments which belong to the Office of the President and do not call themselves Office of the President. Therefore ...

Mr Zimba Interjected.

Dr Sondashi: Keep quiet when I am talking.

Mr Tetamashimba: Keep quiet there!

Interruptions.

Dr Sondashi: I have been in this House under two governments and I have more experience than most of you here.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Like him. Tell him!

Dr Sondashi: The fact that you are on the Front Bench does not mean I cannot be there.

Mr Tetamashimba: Which is ending in November!

Dr Sondashi: I can even do better than you. You know I have done better than you before.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Sondashi: Mr Chairman, I would suggest that the so-called Office of the President, should find a name or, maybe, His Honour the Vice-President must find a better name to give to this unit because this division is capable of doing dirty work and it is not right to associate it with the Office of the President.

Mr L. L. Phiri: As if they are being sent!

Dr Sondashi: Yes, as if whatever they are doing is with the consent of the President and with your consent ...

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi: ... Mr Leader of the House. This is not right. You know that these people sometimes act on their own initiative and, therefore, let them not cover themselves under the Office of the President. People fear to talk to them because they feel that they belong to the Office of the President. We all belong to the Office of the President but have individual names. There are ministers of the President but have individual names. So, I would urge that they find a name. If they want they can call themselves ‘red brick’ or whatever, but they must find a name so that whatever they do, does not appear like they have been sent by the President. The President must remain clean and not be part and parcel of the actions of this division.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Kamucheka!

Dr Sondashi: This is my first proposal, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Move on!

Dr Sondashi: The second point I want to make is that I would like to ask the Leader of the House to advise and make recommendations to the National Assembly that there is need to establish a committee of Parliament which should also monitor the activities of the Office of the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Sondashi: This is not new. In Britain and America there is a committee responsible for monitoring the activities of the offices of CIA and other agencies.

Mr L. L. Phiri: It is true, you have the experience.

Dr Sondashi: I do not see why there should not be a committee because this is a body which, as you know, we do not discuss the nitty-gritty of approving what they do and so forth, but there must be a monitoring unit in Parliament to ensure that what they do is according to what their functions are because if these people are not monitored, they will bug or interfere with your telephone and everything, especially some of you ministers who are against the Third Term.

Laughter.

The Chairman: Order! I hope every hon. Member seated here has got the Order Paper. Your remarks must be restricted to whatever is here. I do not see any item here as ‘Third Term’. Please do not refer to it and that phrase is now a prohibited phrase in this Chamber.

Will you, please continue.

Dr Sondashi: Sorry, Mr Chairman, I wish to withdraw the phrase ‘Third Term’.

Mr Chairman, I was saying that it is important that there must be a committee to scrutinise the work because everyone is scrutinised and all the ministries are scrutinised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Including defence!

Dr Sondashi: Everybody is scrutinised. Therefore, even this department must be scrutinised. If it is not scrutinised, I can tell you that you will regret because one day you will be affected by their actions. 

Sir, these are the only two points which I thought I should bring forward for the benefit of improvement in the operations of Parliament, Mr Chairman, and I do not know why you left it out.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: I am just wondering if there will be any more new ideas coming or I must close the debate.

Interruptions.

Mr Sibetta: The Government have cold feet, Sir!

Mr Nkabika (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Chairman, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this important department of Government.

Mr Sibetta: They need permission to be allowed to debate!

Laughter.

Mr Nkabika: Mr Chairman, I want to refer to the Estimates of this department on page 254. Last year, this House had allocated K3.8 billion for Personal Emoluments but later in the year, there was a supplementary allocation of K10 billion. Later, when you examine the Estimates under Recurrent Departmental Charges, this House allocated half a billion Kwacha but later in the year a supplement of K3.3 billion was allocated. Mr Chairman, according to the Establishment of this department there is no record indicating that there were new workers employed and so we would like to know from the Vice President how this money was used.

The Civil Servants are not being paid on time because there are no funds available. There is no development in rural areas. Meanwhile, this department is being allocated huge sums of money. We want to know because the business community which is contributing to the national Treasury is complaining that the Government leadership is stealing the money.

The Chairman: Order! Have you got material evidence that the money is being stolen? As an hon. Member you are supposed to debate factually and do not bring fabrications here. Can you withdraw that remark, please, and continue.

Mr Nkabika: I am sorry, Sir. The business community is alleging that there is embezzlement of public funds and according to the reports which have been presented to this House, those allegations have been debated on several occasions.

Our Diplomatic Missions Abroad have not been paid for months. Meanwhile, this Department has been receiving huge sums of money. Sir, this department is very important but everyone is aware that our economy is in shambles. The political situation in the country is in chaos but this department is not giving the correct information on what the situation is on the ground.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkabika: Mr Chairman, we would like this Department to tell the Government leaders that they are not popular and it is the right time now to retire. That is why they are receiving these huge sums so that they can come back to us and advise us instead of them polarising the Zambian people. We do not want divisions and it is this department which should come to the leaders to advise them. We do not want to give money to people who are not doing their job by advising the Government about the situation on the ground.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: Order! I hope that the three hon. Members who are indicating to speak will bring up substantial material.

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, I will try to be brief and to the point. Mr Chairman, this is a very important organisation in running a democratic republic like ours but, Sir, you will find that this is the only Government Department where the office of the Auditor-General does not go to audit.

Mr Mulando: No!

Mr Sibetta: You do not know, that is why you lost provincial elections.

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, for the information of the Deputy Minister for Central Province (Mr Mulando), I have been a member of the Public Accounts Committee of this House for the last three Sessions. Sir, I have not seen any audited accounts from this department.

Mr Chairman, we have just been told here that this Department is well funded but why have we not allowed the Office of the Audit General to audit their books. In today’s governance issues, Sir, this is bordering on no transparency as far as disbursement of Government funds is concerned.

Mr Sibetta: Bad governance.

Mr Luhila: That is why as you can see in the middle of the year this Department got a huge amount of money in Supplementary Estimates. This is simple. It is because their accounts are not audited. You will be surprised to learn that the Office of the Internal Auditor in the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development is not represented at this department. Why is this so?

Mr Chairman, the hon. Member for Solwezi Central (Dr Sondashi) was suggesting a change of name. He went further to suggest that this department should be overseen by a Sessional Committee of this House. Mr Chairman, we all know that there is the Committee on Foreign Affairs and National Security. There is already a committee which is existing. What this House needs to do is to see that this department reports to this committee. I happen to have served on this very important committee for the last five years but I have not seen a report from this very important department. If this House is allocating public taxpayers' money to this department, it should also be subjected to report to this House.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika (Mongu Central): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this chance to contribute to this important Vote. We really need to debate this Vote. We are only sorry that our colleagues on the other side of the House are very tired and uninterested but we thank you for the opportunity and we shall utilise it because that is why we came to this House - to talk.

Mr Chairman, this department is very important for any democratically elected Government to have. Any Government for the people by the people of the people including men, women, children and youths represented fairly in all the Government arms and wings etc. needs this kind of outfit.

Mr Chairman, I would just like to encourage them to be more positive. They need to be positive, friendly and they also need to smile. They are too negative and vicious and there is no need to do that as we are brothers and sisters who are interested in the welfare of this country. It is not even good for their health to be so negative, angry and vicious. They might develop high blood pressure and as such they might not even make it to the life expectancy of thirty-two years.

Laughter.

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: They also need to be professional. Even in rural areas they are easily identified ‘kuti kibale ba OP’, which means there go the OP. Even children know them because they have the same vehicles and use the same style. 

I thought they were not supposed to be so obvious. They should not just aim at the Opposition. You know, I have had the privilege of having them park at my house and follow me around. In the rural areas, there is a network. We, rural people, watch out for each other. Several times, somebody has come - I remember, one day, I was leaving for the airport and somebody grabbed me by the arm and said that I should go back to the house because the OP vehicle was parked there. 

It has been going around. This is a true story, Sir. When I finally left for the airport, they followed me. When I got there, by God’s grace, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs was there and so was the then hon. Deputy Minister for Western Province. I told them that I had some people to introduce them to and I introduced them. It is just too negative and too aimed at the Opposition. We are also citizens. 

And they could be very helpful in their work, if they really pointed out at some of the inequalities so that the Government can do a better job. Instead of just following the Opposition, they need to inform the Government that this and that is well done, the money you distributed for Youth Development Fund has been taken by some party cadres. They need to tell you that because when we tell and advise you, you do not give us but let these people use this money to help you govern better. You cannot be everywhere. These are eyes and ears. Give them some orientation so that they can help you to be fair to the Zambian people. When they change fashions, all of them should not change so that it is like a uniform. The cars and suits are all the same.

Mr Chairman, finally, I would like to make a suggestion that the hon. Members of the Front Bench, when they answer, should not invite us to their offices. Mr Chairman, I used to take them seriously when I was young a few years ago. I spent so much time and money for fuel going from office to office because I thought they were serious. It is not always the case and I want to give advice to the newer Members of Parliament to save their fuel because the Government is there to deliver and answer the questions so that they do not tell us to go to their offices. They should not encourage idolatry by going from office to office, hon. Minister to hon. Minister, kneeling, bowing and bootlicking. This is the Zambia taxpayers’ money. The citizens pay tax and yours is to deliver. Do not invite us to your offices. Answer all the questions. Do not go off somewhere on a tangent and evade the question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairman, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to contribute on this Vote.

Mr Chairman, in the year 2000, the Special Division was given K12.2 billion. The supplement was K50.2 billion, which means it went up by 408 per cent. This year, the original figure and what we are debating now is K29.5 billion. Mr Chairman, it means that this budget has gone up from K12.2 billion to K29.5 billion, representing 241.8 per cent.

Mr Chairman, by my count and going by what happened in the year 2000, when supplements are brought here, it means that the Special Division will spend K120.7 billion. Mr Chairman, we are not at war but my point is that this Government has more than two thirds majority in this House. This Government has a comfortable majority.

Mr Sibetta: Hand over properly!

Mr Hachipuka: Please, excuse me, I want to make my point.

Laughter.

Mr Hachipuka: If the Zambian Government which has got nearly 140 Members of Parliament which must be enjoying comfort and support from the grassroots and if they can leap from K12.2 billion to K62.5 billion, which was spent last year and this year, they are likely to leap to K120 billion in a State where we are not at war, then I have a problem in appreciating why so much money is being spent. This is because you are enjoying the majority and the Opposition is in minority. 

So, what are you spending this money on? We are not at war. Where is this money going? Is it being spent? Can anybody here explain to me how this money has been spent? I am at a loss that when we are at peace - I do not want to wish my country to end up like Congo but what more if we had the Congo situation here? I am sure everybody at the Office of the President would be running around with money overflowing the pockets.

I think we need an explanation. This country and this Government are enjoying peace. It is spending so much money. Very soon, we will find out that all of you in the Front Bench will not be able to spend the money we are voting. You will not be given the money to go ahead with country programmes. There will be no money for the Ministry of Education, not even for the Ministry of Works and Supply but these people are going to be given all of this money at a time of peace. I want to know.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President (Lieutenant-General Tembo): Mr Chairman, I stand to present to this august House, Estimates of Expenditure for the Office of the President, Special Division for the year 2001. Expenditure for the department is in line with its functions as outlined in the revised Zambia Security Intelligence Service Act No. 14 of 1998.

Mr Chairman the following are the main functions of the Division:{mospagebreak}

    (a)    To protect the people and the Republic against threats and acts of espionage, subversion, sabotage and acts intended to overthrow and undermine Government by use of arms and all other violent means.

Mr Sibetta: Like you.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: (b)    To collect, correlate and evaluate intelligence relevant to the security or interest of the Republic.

    (c)    To disseminate intelligence to Government institutions in such a manner as the President may direct.

    (d)    To co-ordinate and oversee activities relating to the security intelligence of any ministry or department of Government, the armed forces and Police Service.

    (e)    To advise the Government, public bodies or institutions and statutory bodies or corporations on the protection of vital installations and classified documents.

    (f)    To recommend to the Government, public bodies, institutions or statutory bodies or corporations on persons who may not have access to classified information.

    (g)    To advise the Government on the issues pertaining to activities of foreign investors and behaviour of foreign markets.

Mr Chairman, this department performs these functions in order to secure security and peace in the nation. The continuing wars in the neighbouring countries like Angola, Congo and the Great Lakes Region has created security, economic and social problems to this nation.

The Division has continued to hold joint meetings with other security departments in neighbouring countries

This has contributed to reduction of suspicions on our role in the prevailing conflicts. This is being done against a backdrop of insufficient resources and logistics.

Mr Chairman, I wish to report to the House that the budgeted Estimates of Expenditure are K46,614,796,881, but the Budget was given a ceiling of K29,500,000,000 leaving a shortfall of K17,114,796,881. However, this has shown an improvement over what had been allocated in the past four (4) years. Sir, it is difficult to measure the services rendered by the department although relative peace being enjoyed can attest to that effect.

Mr Chairman, I wish to mention to the House that apart from local expenditure, the Division caters for foreign service attachments. Therefore, the loss in the exchange rate of the kwacha affects the Estimates of Expenditure, hence, requiring supplementary budgets.

Mr Chairman, the Division goes through difficulties like any other ministry in securing funds to meet its untimely assignments from the sponsors. The expenditure might appear to be colossal, but the Division requires this funding.

Mr Chairman, before I present the Estimates of Expenditure for the year 2001, I would like to, very briefly, answer some of the issues raised by hon. Members. I would like to thank you all for the points that you have raised.

First of all, Hon. Sibetta said the Division is operating below par because offices are burnt and there is no progress in terms of prosecution. Now, the Division does not prosecute. It only collects information and hands it over to relevant authorities like the police. It is up to the police to carry out the necessary prosecutions. He also wondered why there is pruning of officers when, in fact, we are going in an election year. The answer is that where we have difficulties in administration. We will definitely carry out the changes and I know that one of them has just been appointed a chief. So, he is going to take up his position as a chief somewhere, I think, in Central Province.

Hon. Dr Sondashi suggested that we change the name from Office of the President to some other name which he thinks is appropriate. Now, what is in a name? You can change the name here but what matters are the instructions that you give to this organisation. If you carry out cosmetic changes of a name and continue to give it the instructions that you have been giving it before, then it will not benefit you anything.

In any case, the question of this name originated in the 1970s when there were two divisions in the Office of the President. The first one was Office of the President - Defence Division (OPDD) and the other one was Office of the President - Special Division. When the Zambia National Defence Force was disbanded, unfortunately, the Division maintained this name. As I said, the important thing is to ensure that the Division is professional to ensure that the instructions that are given to it meet the requirements of the people, not changing names. Changing names will be a cosmetic change as far as I am concerned.

With regard to a committee to monitor the Division, it is up to the House to make the decision. There is already an existing committee which I am sure can handle this particular matter. I would like to caution you, though, that most of the material that might come up here might be operational materials, and it will be difficult for a committee to discuss operational matters in the same way that we do not discuss operational matters in the Ministry of Defence. 

Hon. Nkabika said that there are no new workers employed and wondered why we are giving them more money. You would not know whether there are new employees or not. Even I would not know. So, I think that your argument might not be quite correct. 

Hon. Luhila said that audited accounts must be there. They do have audited accounts. But, perhaps, because of the nature of the accounts, they do not reach you and me. I am, however, aware that the accounts are audited.

Hon. Mbikusita-Lewanika said that the Division is too negative and vicious. I was wondering how you knew this because these are faceless people. So, how do you know they are vicious and negative? You might have seen a few, maybe, the ones that are known but I think the majority of them are just ordinary Zambians like you and I. They comprise some very handsome young men and some beautiful women and I think that you would not tell the difference whether they are vicious or not once you see them. 

Lastly, she complained about visits to hon. Ministers’ offices. I do not think that it is part of the Division. But if you have any problem in this field, I am sure that if you came to see me, something would be done about it. I know that you are saying that you are wasting time visiting offices but I can assure you that you will not waste time on this particular issue.

Hon. Hachipuka wondered how we spent K29.5 billion. He said that by the end of the year, this Division shall have spent K120 billion. I think this is speculation. In any case, apart from maintaining the existing operations, the Division also has to pay for its offices overseas. It has to modernise in terms of technology and this technology requires quite a bit of funding. It has to keep abreast with the occurrences in the region, particularly where there are wars and many other tasks. I think that they do require sufficient funding but I am not quite sure whether, in fact, this will go up to K120 billion.

Mr Chairman, I thank you very much.

Vote 78/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/01 - (Ministry of Education - Headquarters - K616,827,577,685)

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali) : Mr Chairman, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to bring out some few observations on this Vote.

First of all, I would like to say that I support the Vote which my big man has been given, even though he has a lot of problems.

Secondly, I want to thank the ministry for the job they are doing in the country, the rehabilitation programme which they have started. I think I am one of the beneficiaries in Chipangali Constituency. Since he became the hon. Minister of Education, we have seen some fruits.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: We have to say thank you to a person who is looking at national issues and not only distributing funds to party cadres for whatever his intentions are.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: It is not like the way the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is being utilised in this country where only party cadres are members and projects cannot be seen. That is not what the hon. Minister of Education is doing.

Mr Chairman, I have a few suggestions to make to the hon. Minister. If these were carried out, teachers will not be shunning working in rural areas. Right now, teachers are not eager to go to rural area schools because the ministry has not done anything concerning the rural hardship allowance. K12,000.00 or K30,000.00 per month, I think, is peanuts looking at the situation in Zambia now because even a worker who is getting less than K100,000 after deductions this time, Sir, I do not think, is leading a happy life.

For the past ten years, I do not think that the ministry has looked at the rural hardship allowance, especially for teachers in my constituency, who have really felt the hardship. Everywhere in this country teachers have complained bitterly that they have been overlooked.

Mr Chairman, I want to remind the hon. Minister that in rural areas, we have the problem of having few teachers. This double class allowance has also not yet been effective and has never been of benefit to these teachers. The hon. Minister here, has told us that they have decentralised it. In words, yes, but not practically. It has not yet started benefiting our teachers and we have not seen the results. So, this is, again, another reason teachers are refusing to go to rural areas unless the hon. Minister corrects the situation.

The other issue, Sir, is over ZAMSIP and BESSIP projects. When we were invited to attend a seminar by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, we were told that whatever comes to the ministry, they have never said no, but the hiccup is that the Ministry of Education takes time to send forms to the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development. So, we would want to urge the hon. Minister that if they have sleeping Provincial Education Officers (PEOs) or District Education Officers (DEOs) in these provinces and districts, it is high time they retired them because we would want to benefit from these funds. There is no way parents in rural areas can heap stones and mould bricks for five years and still wait for those forms to be approved. Why does it take five years for a form to be approved?

I think it is a mockery. We would not want our parents who will now be busy looking for food, means of how to keep their families and taking their families to the clinics where there are no markets, where money is now a problem to find and where they cannot even find piece work to be subjected to working for a project which will never bear fruits in five years until the MMD says, ‘I think people are tired and they have dis-elected us’. So, I would encourage the hon. Minister to ‘put some speed’ in this problem of approving the forms within two weeks. He would then have done a better job.

Mr Nyundu: Landa icisungu iwe.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Young man, you went to night school, I was at Chizongwe Secondary School and I got a ‘melit’ in English. Can you shut up.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, I would like also to advise the ministry that in September last year there was a project in which teachers were required to contribute money for the solar programme and they promised that the teachers would benefit in ...

Miss Nawakwi: On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, I rarely rise on points of order. Is the hon. colleague on the Floor in order to inform this House that he passed very well in English to the effect that he got a ‘melit’? Is he in order, Mr Chairman?

Laughter.

The Chairman: Hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security, if there is nobody in this House who can praise him, let him praise himself.

Will he, please, continue.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: I know the problem with my wife is that ...

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: ...she made a wrong choice. If she is now trying to correct the mistake, I am ready to take her back.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, in my constituency, Chipangali, in September last year, teachers started contributing to a programme called Solar but from last year up to now teachers have not seen the results. The question is: where is that money going and when are they going to start benefiting from that project? So, we would like the hon. Minister, as he winds up, to inform the nation. Any money, be it one ngwee or two ngwee, being deducted from a worker should never take centuries for him or her to start seeing its results. So, from September, Mr Chairman, up to this year, teachers have not benefited from this project. Should we think that people are being robbed or exploited? I think, Mr Chairman, it is very unfortunate for a civilised society of the calibre of the hon. Minister, who happens to be my brother and a General at the same time, of those early days, ...

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: ...to let the situation go like that. Mr Chairman, under your leadership, you have always told us to be brief and to be reasonable.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Luhila (Lukulu-West): I thank you very much for according me this opportunity to contribute briefly on this very important Vote.

Mr Chairman, it is sad to note that these days teachers are trained in our colleges but they are not deployed in schools. It is very common these days to go to primary schools, especially in rural areas, and find that schools up to grade seven are manned, probably, by two teachers or three teachers.

Hon. Opposition Member: One untrained teacher.

Mr Luhila: One, thank you very much.

Mr Chairman, and yet you find that those who have been trained at an enormous cost by the Zambian taxpayer, are still roaming the streets. They have not been deployed in schools and are almost forgetting what they learned. So, I hope that when the hon. Minister comes to reply, he is going to inform the public on what is happening to those teachers who have been trained. 

Sir, another confusion which has been caused by this Government is when they announced that parents are no longer going to pay Grade 7 fees. Sir, you will still find that this information has not gone down to all the schools especially in rural areas. We would like to ask the hon. Minister to try to see that this information gets to the school authorities throughout the country because some schools are still subjecting the parents to paying the school fees. I do to not think this is fair.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, it is sad to note that in the last ten years of this listening MMD Government, we have not seen any investment in capital construction of schools. Repair and construction of schools have been left to the donors.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: In Lusaka!

Mr Luhila: And yet, the Zambian taxpayers' money has not been invested in schools, that is capital projects. Why is it so? We cannot leave this vital institution to the donors alone. Micro Projects, European Union, you name it, ...

Dr Mbikusita-Lewanika: And the World Bank

Mr Sibetta: Go ahead!

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, ...

Miss Nawakwi interjected.

Mr Luhila: I do not want to be interrupted.

Mr Sibetta: She is your young brother's wife.

Mr Luhila: Mr Chairman, the conditions of service for teachers are bad even though we have been told now that every teacher will  get not less than K200,000.00. You will be surprised to note that the cost of living in rural areas is higher than in urban areas. 

For example, when a teacher buys his or her mattress from Radian Stores, he has to transport that mattress on a bus or van ...

Mr Kalenga: Ox cart!

Mr Luhila: Thank you very much, sometimes on ox carts. 

You will find that a mattress which costs about K70,000.00 in the capital city will cost K200,000.00 by the time it reaches the destination.

Mr Chairman, are we being fair? I think the hon. Minister should revise this hardship allowance to a reasonable amount.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Luhila: Those teachers who are in the cities get the same amount of money with the teachers in rural areas which is very unfair.

So, I would like to urge the hon. Minister who listens and is very hard working, that he should revive ...

Mr Kalenga: And very popular and with clean hands.

Mr Luhila: ... his spirit which he came with by visiting some of those rural areas. You will be surprised, hon. Minister ...

The Chairman: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 23rd February, 2001