Debates- Friday, 2nd March, 2001

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Friday, 2nd March, 2001

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]




The Vice-President (Lieutenant-General Tembo): Mr Speaker, I wish to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 6th March, 2001, the business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. These will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply to consider outstanding Votes of Expenditure on this year’s Estimates, if there will be any.

On Wednesday, 7th March, 2001, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. These will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider private Members’ motions, if there will be any. After that, the House will continue with consideration of any other business that may not have been concluded on Tuesday, 6th March, 2001.

Sir, on Thursday, 8th March, 2001, the business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. These will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then deal with any outstanding business that may not have been concluded the previous day.

On Friday, 9th March, 2001, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. These will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider any other outstanding business.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!



The Minister of Tourism (Mr Harrington): Mr Speaker, I am most grateful to you, for allowing me to make this brief, but timely and important, Ministerial Statement.

Before I do so, Mr Speaker, allow me, firstly, to extend my congratulations to the hon. Member for Bweengwa Constituency, Mr Edgar Keembe, MP, for very successfully retaining his position as MMD Provincial Chairman in the recently held Provincial Party Elections, and for his entire Executive Committee. Mr Speaker, having lived in Monze in the Southern Province for twenty-five years, I have known Hon. Edgar Keembe to be a brave, committed and principled party leader with the type of qualities that will steer the party in the province in the right direction. 

I also want to thank the President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr F. J. T. Chiluba, for condemning the acts of violence and thuggery at the Southern Province Conference which resulted in a hon. Cabinet Minister and NEC Member being punched and molested by an over-zealous party cadre in a manner most unprecedented. 


Mr Harrington: That is my preamble. Mr Speaker, I also want to welcome the ruling of the hon. Deputy Speaker early this week that the party must deal with the matter. It is welcome and commendable.

Mr Speaker, this House will recall that early this year the President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr F. J. T. Chiluba, made mention of two very important events which Zambia will host this year, that is, the Organisation of African Unity Heads of State Summit and the 2001 solar eclipse. Mr Speaker, as the President indicated on the occasion of the Official Opening of Parliament in January this year, Zambia will, on the afternoon of Thursday, 21st June, 2001, experience a total solar eclipse. 

The eclipse of the sun will be experienced at different times in different locations with the first being Chavuma where the eclipse will start at exactly 1310 hours and last the longest for three minutes and fifty-nine seconds. From there, Mr Speaker, the shadow will move towards the south east through Lusaka where the total eclipse will last three minutes and fourteen seconds. The shortest total eclipse will be in Kafue lasting only one minute and thirty-five seconds. The eclipse, Mr Speaker, will also be seen in other places such as Luangwa, Mumbwa, Zambezi, Kabwe, Lusaka, Chongwe and Chisamba, just to mention a few locations.

Mr Speaker, due to Zambia’s strategic location, we can expect perfect visibility of the solar eclipse in some of these areas. The weather in Zambia on that day and time will be perfect. According to the National Weather Service, it has not rained in Zambia on the 21st of June since 1504 AD. We can, therefore, expect no adverse weather conditions, no cloud and an average temperature of twenty-five degrees centigrade. The solar eclipse, Mr Speaker, can only occur during the day. This is when the moon passes between the earth and the sun.

At the time, the moon’s shadow sweeps across the earth’s surface and causes a major portion of the sun’s disc to be covered or “eclipsed” by the moon. 

On this day, the 21st June, 2001 the moon will completely blot out the sun creating darkness at noon for countries lying in the path of totality. Zambia will lie in this path where this rare phenomenon of darkness during day-time will be experienced. As the President mentioned, countries have an opportunity for this rare experience only once in 400 years. 

Mr Speaker, the forthcoming solar eclipse is a very important event for Zambia because it will be a vehicle for injecting the much-needed foreign exchange into the economy. The foreign exchange to be earned would be through payments for accommodation, transport, airport departure fees, foodstuff, souvenirs, arts and crafts, visa fees, fuel, sanitation facilities, communication and aviation services.

Mr Speaker, the task for preparing for an event like the solar eclipse that attracts world attention is a big challenge for a developing country like Zambia. However, Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament, the 2001 Solar Eclipse presents a "free - gift - of - nature" opportunity for our country to earn unexpected foreign exchange. 

The Government, through my ministry, has, therefore, established the 2001 Solar Eclipse Secretariat for effective co-ordination of the programme and events. 

Mr Speaker, the Secretariat has seven main objectives, namely:

1.     to create public awareness about eclipse and to market Zambia as a tourist destination;

2.    to organise sufficient accommodation for tourists;

3.    to organise sufficient transport for tourists;

4.    to ensure safety of viewers;

5.    to entertain tourists and the general public;

6.    to provide security for eclipse viewers and also to put in place  conducive immigration and customs procedures for our expected visitors; and 

7.    to make the Secretariat operational.

I would now like to touch on a very important matter, that is, on objective four, ensuring safety of viewers. I need to caution hon. Members and the nation through this House, Mr Speaker, that the total eclipse like the forthcoming 2001 event is fatal to the naked eye. If the eclipse is looked at carelessly and without taking precautionary measures, it could lead to blindness.

To ensure the safety of viewers, viewing glasses will be procured for sale at a modest fee and/or free of charge distributed to local people along the path of darkness or total darkness and I am working very closely with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Health, in this regard.

Mr Speaker, not less than 10,000 international visitors are expected in the country for the event. Experts have estimated that each tourist would spend an average sum of US$500 dollars for the one day stay. This means, Mr Speaker, that all things being equal, for an average stay of three days, the Zambian economy expects to earn not less than US$15 million from this event. I hope I am very clear, fifteen, one and five.

Mr Speaker, I extend my request to the hon. Members of Parliament to take interest in the event and ensure that their constituencies benefit from the proceeds of this event in many ways. 

Mr Speaker, my ministry, through the 2001 Solar Eclipse Secretariat, has lined up various campaign activities to be launched on the 3rd March, 2001, tomorrow, in Lusaka.

On this day, the match past will be flagged off from Kafue Round About through Cairo Road to Manda Hill Shopping Centre where the programme of activities will be officially launched. All hon. Members are cordially invited to the occasion. 

Mr Speaker, it is important that the Zambian people and the public at large are well informed about the eclipse, it’s benefits and the necessary precautionary measures as they observe it. The main publicity activities are intended to sell the event and promote Zambia as a prime tourist destination. Activities are also intended to educate tourists and Zambians at large about this natural phenomenon, it’s coming about and the safety to the eyes when observing it.

Mr Speaker, I take this opportunity to applaud my counter-part, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Dr Katele Kalumba, for providing the much needed K50 million to facilitate the launch. My ministry is appreciative of his ministry's prompt action in the release of funds. I am happy that the hon. Minister, in appreciating the importance of this event, is processing the release of the rest of the K1 billion needed for the lined-up programmes to ensure that Zambia successfully hosts the solar eclipse event this year.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I appeal to all foreign airlines operating into and out of Zambia, to seriously consider reducing their fares in order to enable many intending travellers and interested tourists especially youth groups and students to come to Zambia to witness the total eclipse of the sun on the 21st June, 2001.

The airlines’ contribution to Zambia’s tourism development will be greatly appreciated by the Government. 

May I, once again, take this opportunity to thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing us to officially launch the publicity activities in this august House and I thank all hon. Members of Parliament for their keen attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear, job well done.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now offered a chance to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given to the House this morning.

Mr Kalifungwa (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, the creation of the Solar Eclipse Secretariat is a very good idea but I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what mechanism has been put in place to monitor the operations of the secretariat so that the set objectives can be achieved at the end of the day.

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Tourism is directly responsible for supervising the operations of the secretariat.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muloji (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just told us that Chavuma will have the longest viewing period during the eclipse. What preparations and measures have been put in place to take many tourists to that area?

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, the role of my ministry, in this regard, is to provide the necessary information of how visitors can reach places like Chavuma and we look forward to the support and co-operation of the hon. Member of Parliament for Chavuma, in this regard, to assist in facilitating our visitors to reach his constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkabika (Kapiri-Mposhi): Mr Speaker, is the Government going to consider waiving the visa requirement for the visitors so as to facilitate easy entry into the country?

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, I would like to respond by saying that matter has not as yet been considered but it’s a worthwhile suggestion which can be considered. But understand that visa issues and so on are the responsibilities of the line ministry. We need to co-ordinate our efforts to ensure that Zambia benefits from this even by facilitating our visitors.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Miti (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, what is the Ministry of Tourism working on in collaboration with the Ministry of Home Affairs to ensure the safety of our tourists?

Hon. Members: Safety!

Mr Miti: ... to ensure the safety ... - Yes, it is English I am speaking. Maybe, some of these chaps must have gone through the window. What is it that the Ministry of Tourism is doing, in working together with the Ministry of Home Affairs, to ensure that the tourists ...

Hon. Members: Safety!

Mr Miti: ... are safe ...


Mr Miti: ... as they come to Zambia for this event of the century?

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, that is the very reason why we have established the secretariat which involves lining ministries and other stakeholders so that we look at issues of security, health e.t.c. So, this secretariat will look at the issue of safety as well and I am quite sure that Zambia has never been an unsafe tourist destination and will continue to maintain its safety records for our tourists.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushala (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, this millennium event will earn Zambia an estimated US $15 million. I would like to know what are the Estimates that the Government has put in place, and what amounts or percentages will be given to the areas which will actually attract more tourists.

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, again that is a new issue, it has not arisen during our discussions, and so I can only say that it is a positive suggestion. It is important that our communities in these areas benefit from the US $15 million expected from this event. But again, as I said in my ministerial statement, Mr Speaker, various tourism enterprises will benefit through, for example, money spent for accommodation, e.t.c.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Keembe (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has told us that looking at this coming eclipse will be dangerous to our people. He was not quite clear on what exact devices he is going to distribute to the people of Zambia to ensure that their eyes are protected, and also in ensuring that people in the remotest areas of Zambia will get this particular warning.

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, as I said, I am working very closely with my colleague hon. Minister of Health to ensure that the safety of our people's eyes are protected through the use of solar viewing spectacles. 

Mr Keembe: How?

Mr Harrington: These are special solar eclipse spectacles. As I said, these will be distributed for a token amount of money through the secretariat. If you keep your eyes and ears open to the media, the launch starts tomorrow and there will be various forums on television and radio for purposes of educating the people. That is a very critical issue I want to say that we need to go out there and inform the public. We are looking forward to hon. Members of Parliament playing their roles in the constituencies to ensure the people do not look carelessly at the eclipse. Perhaps, they can go to bed ...

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Harrington: Yes, for few minutes.


Mr Harrington: On a serious note, Mr Speaker, I am saying that we will be educating the people through the secretariat and various publicity campaign forums on how best Zambians could avoid blindness, either temporary or permanent, by looking carelessly at the eclipse. But if hon. Members care to come tomorrow for the launch at Manda Hill, they will be able to learn more and, perhaps, even acquire these solar spectacles.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyundu: Hear, hear!

Mr C. T. A. Banda (Mkaika): Mr Speaker, in view of the importance of this event in Zambia, I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister whether he has any plans to invite hon. Members of Parliament  to come to Lusaka that time.

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, Zambians do not need an invitation from the Minister of Tourism to come to Lusaka to witness the event. They are free to do so. There is freedom of movement in Zambia.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Hlazo (Mumbwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures have been put in place, geographically. As you know, the eclipse of the sun will be more prominent in the Mumbwa area or Kaindu area to be more specific and we have a problem with the roads leading to that particular area. They are in such a very bad shape, and between now and June it is not a long time. It is only three months from the date he has mentioned. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what other information he has passed on to the country in terms of informing the people about all these measures he is trying to put in place.

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, it is quite true to say that it will be difficult for visitors to go to certain areas but the hon. Member must also appreciate that there will be not much difference in terms of the total eclipse between one point in Mumbwa and the other. Whichever point you are in Mumbwa you will be able to witness the eclipse of the sun quite effectively.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mando was indicating to speak.

Mr Speaker: Does the hon. Deputy Minister want to raise a point of clarification on another Member of the Executive?

Mr Mando: No, Sir. I just want to make a comment.

Mr Speaker: It is not in accordance with the procedure.

Major Kamanga (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, arising from the statement given by the able Minister of Tourism, can he clarify a point which when he was advancing he lowered his voice and we could not pick, that hunting for Zambians will start on 24th of June, immediately after the eclipse of the sun, and that the modalities have now been published.

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair wishes to guide that that question is definitely irrelevant.


Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister which was not clear about the solar glasses which will be provided to Zambians or which will be sold, can he confirm if the Government has plans to order the exact number of solar glasses equivalent to ten million people, the population of Zambia, so that people are not encouraged to go and sleep instead of seeing what exactly will happen that day. Can he confirm.

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member for Chipangali paid due attention to my ministerial statement he would have heard that the total eclipse is not going to affect the whole country or the whole population of ten million Zambians. In any case, out of that ten million some of them are babies. So, I do not know how he gets that figure of ten million who would want to look at the same.

Mr Holmes: Some are old!

Mr Harrington: Some are old and some are blind already.


Mr Kavindele: Some are in hospitals!

Mr Harrington: Some are in hospitals, I am reminded here by the hon. Minister of Health. And some are out of Zambia. So, the Government through the secretariat will make sure that as many solar spectacles are available to those who may wish to risk looking at the sun on that particular day and wish to take precautionary measures.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: One more.

Dr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, we know the eclipse of the sun is a very important episode, the last one being in 1835, and we know the significance of that eclipse. Mr Speaker, I know that there are possible misinterpretations of such an event. How is this Government ready to deal with possible misinterpretations, particularly those with religious afflictions?

Mr Harrington: Mr Speaker, I do not know whether I understood the question properly but I will try my best to answer by saying that all these issues will be addressed as we go along and reach the day, 21st June, but I would certainly wish to invite the hon. Member for Rufunsa to make any submissions to the secretariat on how any ideas he may have could assist to address his concerns.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, let me also begin by congratulating, Hon. Keembe on his success. Having said so...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Great men.

The Vice-President: ... I would like to say that in addition to what the hon. Member for Rufunsa (Dr Chipungu) has said in terms of religious beliefs, I have also been briefed that there is a possibility of people associating the eclipse with witchcraft. I think that the secretariat will do well to look at the effects on the community in terms of religious beliefs as well as in terms of witchcraft.

Mr Speaker, some people think that the whole event will be organised by some witches and I think that this ought to be erased from the minds of the people.

Mr Speaker, there will also be a study on animal behaviour. There will be a team from the United Kingdom which my colleague did not mention which will be coming into the parks to come and observe the behaviour of animals on that particular day. This is because it is expected that animals will be confused and so, there will be need for people to come and study this. I urge hon. Members who have pets like dogs and others  to see how their dogs and cats react.

Mr Speaker, this is the only time in our lifetime when we shall see the sun rise twice and the sun set twice in one day. So, I think it is a very important issue, as my friend has said, which we should not miss. The next total eclipse over Zambia will be in the year 2161.

I thank you, Sir.



71 Mr Mweni (Lupososhi) asked the Minister of Works and Supply how much money was released for the upgrading of the Luwingu/Nsombo and Luwingu/Chungu roads to all weather roads between January and June, 2000.


Mr Speaker: Order!

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mululu): Mr Speaker, my ministry did not release any money for the upgrading of the Luwingu/Nsombo and Luwingu/Chungu roads in the year ended December, 2000. However, the maintenance of Luwingu/Nsombo Road and Luwingu/Chungu Road are included in the maintenance programme of feeder roads, the Emergency Maintenance Programme this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweni: Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister if he is aware that the road from the shore of Lake Bangweulu is impassable as I speak now which makes it difficult for the people coming from the swamps of Lake Bangweulu difficult to reach Luwingu.

Mr Mululu: Mr Speaker, yes, I am aware and I think that all of us know that this year alone we have had an unprecedented amount of rains and the Lake is actually spilling out water which obviously has not spared the road.

I thank you, Sir.


72. Mr Hamir (Serenje) asked the Minister of Home Affairs what measures the government has taken to reduce crime in the country in the year 2001.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Machungwa): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Zambia Police has developed various policing strategies which include foot and motorised patrols supported by co-operation which we have developed within the communities and we use methods such as Neighbourhood Watch Associations.

Additionally, increased police visibility by establishing more community police posts in the residential and business areas to bring the Police Service closer to the people will be pursued vigorously. Recently, the ministry acquired fifty Landrovers to be used by the police in various districts and these have been distributed. In addition, seventeen long range base radios were acquired and these will make it possible for those stations, especially in the rural areas, which were not able to communicate with other stations and with Lusaka and Force Headquarters to be able to do so.

Some of these radios are solar operated, making it possible for even those areas that have no electrical power to be able to use these radios. Sir, the ministry has also plans to acquire more vehicles and communication equipment to facilitate police operations. Further, plans are still underway to acquire helicopters so as to enable us to establish a police air wing. This will increase the capability of the Police to fight crime.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I would like the able Minister to clarify or confirm on when he intends to equip police officers in rural areas who have no equipment like short buttons, handcuffs and other weapons which can assist them to combat crime, especially in rural areas and not only in urban areas.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, acquiring equipment that the police use is a continuous process within the Police Service. We budget for these items and from time to time, we distribute them to the police.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr T. J. C. Phiri (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether his ministry does give assistance to the Neighbourhood Watch Associations which are also part of crime prevention in the country.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, it is true that we work very closely with these Neighbourhood Watch Associations. Sometimes, we put our people and sometimes our vehicles to work with them. Sometimes the communities assist. So, we work very closely with them and we spend a lot of resources in kind and also directly to assist them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muloji (Chavuma): Mr Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister when he intends to upgrade the police post in Chavuma to a full police station.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, upgrading of police posts to police stations is something that is done by Force Headquarters after taking into account various issues including the population in the area, resources available, the crime levels in the area and this, again, is a continuous process.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, with all the elaborate measures that have been taken to try and control crime, will the hon. Minister tell us why the quality of police performance has not improved all these years.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member may wish to know that the police performance has improved. There are certain areas where we need to improve but there has been quite a bit of improvement.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Luhila: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs aware that in the gun buy-back programme, people are surrendering dangerous weapons in border districts without being rewarded by the Police Force, contrary to what is contained in the amnesty?

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the Police Fire-arms Buy-Back Scheme is what it is. When the members of the public bring in illegal firearms, the police receive these fire arms and we pay out K200,000 on the spot. If there are cases where some members of the public have not been paid, which I am not aware of, I would invite the hon. Member of Parliament to bring details to us so that this can be attended to immediately.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shimonde (Mwembeshi): Mr Speaker, why has the hon. Minister of Home Affairs abandoned random patrols at night? They recovered a lot of firearms and motor vehicles.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, we have not abandoned any of our methods. We review the situation and as need demands, we use any of the various methods and strategies available to the police. The fact that we are not using that method now does not mean that we have abandoned it. When the time is ripe, we will use it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkabika (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell the House what measures he is putting in place to arrest the political violence in the country as it happened in Mpika and Monze.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the police are a professional force and they are not supposed to be instigated or ordered by politicians. They will investigate cases of violence when they occur or assault if there is any and they will take the necessary measures. I do not believe that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi is suggesting that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs begins directing the police to arrest when the hon. Minister feels it. What we want is the police to do a professional job.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr J. T. Phiri (Chama North): Mr Speaker, what is the hon. Minister doing about the situation in Luapula Province where gun-running is very rampant? Is there any programme he has put in place to educate the people about the dangers of involving themselves in this illegal business?

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, there are no reports at the Force Headquarters to show that gun-running is rampant in Luapula Province. However, I wish to say that it is true that in most parts of the country, because of the conflicts that are going on in some neighbouring countries, some arms have gotten into our borders but necessary measures are being taken to ensure that these are removed from the public.

I thank you. Sir.

Miss Mwansa: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Home Affairs tell us when the ministry intends to spread its presence to the remotest parts of the country where violent crimes are happening and they are not abated.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the Police Service is aware of the need to try to bring police presence to all areas of our country, including the very remote areas. Sometimes, we are limited by resources. However, working with the community and with people like the hon. Member of Parliament, herself, we can establish police posts in those areas so that our people can enjoy the protection that they deserve from the police.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I think the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi has not been answered. Mr Speaker, the Public Order Act suggests that people should inform the police and get permission to convene a meeting. The Monze meeting was applied for and officially opened. In Western Province, there will be another meeting. The question was: what is it that he is putting in place to make sure there is no violence there?

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, those are operational issues that the police do not discuss in the open.

Thank you, Sir.


73. Mr Matubulani (Kalomo) (on behalf of Mr Chiinda (Chikankata) asked the Minister of Health when his ministry will provide Chikankata Mission Hospital with an ambulance.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, following the approval of the Budget for 2001 by Parliament which budget contains a provision for procurement of ambulances, my ministry has put measures in place to procure ambulances for distribution throughout the country and Chikankata Mission Hospital will benefit when the ambulances are procured.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, we do understand that most mission hospitals operate on very minimal funding from the Government, I would like to know what measures are being put in place by the ministry to try and improve the funding to these mission hospitals.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the problem that the ministry faces concerning mission hospitals is that in a sense those institutions are autonomous and run independent of Government institutions. So, what the Government has done is to just help supply funding to them by way of grants to assist them because they are doing a commendable job in areas where they serve our people. It is very difficult for us to plan for those institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Luhila: Mr Speaker, what is the hon. Minister of Health doing in trying to harmonise the distribution of ambulances which have been purchased at State House using the Presidential Funds which are just benefiting people who have access to State House? Hospitals which are in need but do not have people who have access to State House are not benefiting.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health handles finances that come to the ministry from the Budget. The President and the Presidential Funds for ambulances have nothing to do with my ministry.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapangalwendo (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that some mission hospitals are treating patients very rudely and, therefore, impose a lot of difficulties, does the ministry have plans to discipline these missions hospitals or repossess them?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health may reply only as a bonus to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali.

Mr Mwansa: I just wish to state that the mission institutions are doing a commendable job. If there is an individual or a group of people who are abusing patients, I think that the hon. Member will do well to report to my ministry and we will have discussions with that institution.

Thank you, Sir.


74. Mr Mweni asked the hon. Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when a bridge will be built between Kasaba and Mutondo causeway; and

(b)    when the road from Musaila in Samfya District in Luapula Province to Luwingu District in the Northern Province will be tarred.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mululu): Mr Speaker, the construction of the bridge across Mutondo plains will be carried out at the time of reconstructing the existing road between Musaila and Luwingu to Plus 1(c) bitumen standard.

Mr Speaker, the ministry intends to carry out detailed engineering design and preparatory work for tender documents this year and the work may commence in the year 2002.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalifungwa (Mambilima): Sir, I notice that there is discriminatory budgeting which does not allocate funding to projects equitably. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister who dictates the allocation of project funding in the ministry.

Mr Mululu: Sir, I feel extremely sad by the statement of the hon. Member of Parliament for Mambilima who feels that there is discrimination in our allocations.

First and foremost, let me just also allude to the fact that roads or, indeed, any projects are first initiated in the areas where they are based. So, the discrimination does not come from either us or the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development . As long as there are demands for such a project in an area, we shall do our best to liaise with our colleagues in the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development but also, it depends on the availability of funds.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mweni: Sir, I would like to find out if the hon. Minister is aware that for some years, this Kasaba/Mutondo Road has caused Luapula and Northern provinces to be delinked.

Mr Mululu: Sir, I would like to assume that the hon. Member of Parliament is referring to the causeway. I am aware, Sir.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Luhila (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, in view of the heavy rains we are having, now, throughout the Republic, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether his ministry already has concrete plans on paper and everything to try and take stock of the damages which have been done to the bridges and the road network throughout the Republic so that they could be repaired promptly.

Mr Mululu: Mr Speaker, I am grateful to the hon. Member of Parliament for Lukulu East for alluding to the question of heavy rains which are still ravaging our country. We cannot have the preparatory work now. If we prepare a document it will not be complete because it will not take into account all the damage done. We shall have done a half job. So, we shall have our officers in the provinces and districts to assess the actual damage and what we should do when. the rains subside.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


75. Mr Matubulani (on behalf of Mr Chiinda) asked the hon. Minister of Health:

(a)    how many doctors were at Chikankata Mission Hospital as at 31st December, 2000; and

(b)    whether there are any plans to post Cuban doctors to the same hospital.

Mr Mwansa: Thank you, Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Luhila: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Luhila: Sir, is the MMD Government in order to continue misleading this country by misusing the institution of Chieftainship in this country? The Constitution of the Republic of Zambia says that the chiefs should be excluded from the political arena of the Republic. The chiefs should be neutral so that they can advise us as their subjects on how to conduct public affairs. Mr Speaker, I am a worried man to read on the front page of today’s Times of Zambia, Friday, 2nd March, 2000, and I quote:


    Ten prominent Nsenga Chiefs from the Eastern Province have jointed the army of national civic and religious leaders in the call for President Chiluba to go for a third term of office.’

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame, shame!

Mr Luhila: Speaker, I believe that these chiefs are being misused. I would like them to be left out of political affairs according to the Constitution of the Republic so that they are not biased on any political issue. So, is the Government of the day in order to continue misusing this noble institution of Chieftainship in this Republic?

Mr Luhila laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Speaker: The point of order that has been raised by the hon. Member for Lukulu East brings out two issues.

Firstly, when a Member of the Executive is on the Floor, replying to an issue of national interest that is before the House, in this case, matters related to the health of the nation through Question Number 75 and a point of order is raised, that means the House is not interested in hearing what the Government has to say on that question. At the end of what I am going to say next, the Chair may or may not require the hon. Minister of Health to continue.

The second point is that the hon. Member for Lukulu East is an experienced Parliamentarian and hon. Members should have noticed that the Chair has guided hon Members not to bring before this House, directly or indirectly, issues referred to as the ‘Third Term’ because this is not properly, even improperly, before the House. Accordingly, the Chair declines to rule on that point of order. Of course, the Chair has noted that the point of order is already on record as such. If there is anybody out there who wishes to debate that point of order, he/she is free to do so. 

In the interest of justice, and for information, may the hon. Deputy Minister of Health, please, continue.

Mr Mwansa: I am obliged Sir, I wish to inform the House that Chikankata Mission Hospital had six doctors as at 31st December, 2000. There are no plans to post Cuban Doctors there.

However, there are plans to post both Zambians and expatriate doctors when they are available. Of the 150 Cuban doctors who were on three year contract , 100 of them left the country after their contracts expired in the year 2001. The remaining will leave in June, this year, at the end of their contracts. Recruitment of Cuban doctors is based on bilateral agreement by the two countries.

I thank you, sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Could the hon. Minster tell this august House if it is in their plans to send doctors to Mpanshya Mission Hospital, which is in Rufunsa Parliamentary Constituency and is a danger zone, a scene of many accidents between the Eastern and Lusaka provinces. The hospital does not have a single doctor.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the ministry has a number of doctors who graduated this year and we have distributed them to various provinces. It is now up to the Provincial Directors of Health to direct those doctors to hospitals in need.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa (Mambilima): Mr Speaker, we do acknowledge the services that are being provided by these foreign doctors. Now, we wish to know from the hon. Deputy Minister whether they do conduct any performance appraisals of these foreign doctors when they come here to justify their stay within our country.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, right at the start of these agreements, when doctors are sourced from abroad, my ministry sends professionals there to interview the doctors and when they come into the country, we do look at their performance within the country and so far, in general, the performance has been quite good and they have been of assistance to the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwitwa (Mansa): Mr Speaker, I just wanted to find out from the hon. Minister, in view of the shortage of doctors in our country and in Mansa in particular, when he is going to provide a utility vehicle for the few doctors to be picked to and from work instead of using an ambulance which they are doing now.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the ministry is aware of the plight of doctors in our various institutions. In as much as we do sympathise, Sir, we are limited by availability of funds in certain cases to provide transport for them and we have to appeal to our professionals to make do with what is available and when we do have transport available, we will send it to those institutions to alleviate those problems.

I thank you, Sir.


The Minister of Finance and Economic Development (Dr Kalumba): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply. I am a bearer of three messages from the President recommending that these motions which I shall now lay on the Table be proceeded with in the Assembly.

Mr Speaker, as a result of the Budget, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures which I will outline in the Committee.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.




The Minister of Finance and Economic Development (Dr Kalumba):
Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act  so as to:

(a)    Strengthen the residence stay for companies for tax purposes;

(b)    Empower the Commissioner-General to confer upon any person, any of the functions of the Commissioner-General under the Act;

(c)    Increase the tax credit from one hundred and twenty thousand kwacha to one hundred and forty-four thousand kwacha;

(d)    Broaden the tax bands;

(e)    Increase the allowable deductions for pension contribution from one hundred and twenty thousand kwacha to one hundred and eighty thousand kwacha;

(f)    Remove the requirements for tax a clearance certificate for trading licences, manufacturing, liquor, Bar, Restaurant and Canteen licences, practising certificates and tax bus or mini bus operator licences;

(g)    Broaden and strengthen the provision dealing with thin capitalisation ;

(h)    Increase the threshold at which co-operatives are taxed from eight hundred kwacha to three million six hundred thousand kwacha; and

(i)    Provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that the Bill to give effect, to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech in January this year.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.


Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to:

    (a)    harmonise and simplify customs procedures and to bring customs procedures in line with current internationally accepted trade practices;

    (b)    revise the rates of customs and excise duty payable on certain goods; and

    (c)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech in January, 2001.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.


Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to empower the Commissioner-General to confer any of the functions of the Commissioner-General under the Act upon any person if that person consents; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech in January, 2001.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Resolutions reported.

Reports adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.



The following Bills were read the first time:

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2001

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2001

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2001

Second Readings on Tuesday, 6th March, 2001.



VOTE 90/01 - Office of the President - Lusaka Province - Headquarters - K8,400,723,189)

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Shimonde (Mwembeshi): I thank you, Mr Chairman, for according me the chance to contribute on this Vote.

Firstly, I would like to thank the Government and the Ministry of Home Affairs, for giving me a brand new 110 Landrover for Shibuyunji Police Station.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: I would also like to thank the President for having given me an ambulance for Mwembeshi Hospital. I would, further, like to thank the hon. Minister of Works and Supply for making me popular in Mwembeshi by building the Mwembeshi Bridge at long last.

Mr Chairman, some of the problems being faced in Central Province include the tourist road that we have from Lusaka via Nampundwe/Shibuyunji/Muchabi up to the Blue Lagoon. This is the same road that passes through Mumbwa District. Sir, this same road is in a deplorable condition. Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Works and Supply and the Ministry of Tourism should work together to make this road passable. 

Sir, I would, further, like to talk about the Lusaka/Mongu Road which was rehabilitated in certain areas especially places like the area before Kasalu and going as far as Mumbwa. I think that road was rehabilitated by Kronos. It is very bumpy. The Government paid out money for shoddy work. I hope with regard to the next contractor who will work on that road, we will make sure that before the money is paid to him, he will have done a good job and we will not pay for shoddy jobs like what is being done at the moment. We are losing taxpayers' money by paying these contractors who are not doing a good job.

Mr Chairman, as regards agriculture, we have got Mukulaika Research Centre where there were a lot of animals. The buildings are dilapidated, falling apart and the villagers are helping themselves to the roofing sheets making the centre completely finished. The animals have been wiped out and I cannot accept that these have been wiped out by corridor disease because that is an agricultural centre. So, it means that the people that are working there have sold the animals or they have eaten the meat. Can you rehabilitate those buildings and bring back the research centre which you had initially started. We need to educate people. You know the people are growing in villages and so the agriculture officers should educate the upcoming farmers or teach them new farming techniques. We used to use cattle dung as fertiliser before when there was no fertiliser, at the time I was born. 

Now, these are the research centres which are ...


Mr Shimonde: ... then, when I was born. Of course, I am older than you.


Mr Shimonde: When I was born, there was no fertiliser. We were using cattle dung and other manure but today there is fertiliser. So, these organic matters which we were using have been completely phased out. Everybody depends on fertiliser. We should educate our people on how to apply fertiliser. Sometimes we simply ask for the fertiliser and do not even know how to use it. So, these research centres are very important.

Major Kamanga: That is your job.

Mr Shimonde: That is not my job, young man.

Mr Chairman, the buildings need a new coat of paint especially in Mumbwa District. Sir, when you drive to Mumbwa, it is like a ghost town. Surely, just a coat of paint can make the environment clean. The town centre is bad. On the Mongu Road, in fact, the planner in the UNIP regime made a mistake. They should have constructed Mongu Road via Mumbwa town, but they put it far way. It is about ten kilometres from the junction. And the same road from the junction to the town centre is in a deplorable condition. We have to repair that road. 

Mr Chairman, the roads that are leading to our chiefs' palaces are in a bad state. You cannot visit any chief now because you cannot get there, even when you are driving a four by four. We need to rehabilitate these roads because Mumbwa is an agricultural centre, it is a maize belt, an agricultural base and it feeds part of this country. So, we need those feeder roads, trunk roads and the main roads to be rehabilitated properly.

Mr Chairman, cattle disease is another problem which has wiped out most our animals. I used to be a proud young man sometime back when I would proudly say, I have a lot of cattle. Those were my millions in the bank. Today, we are in poverty. We are now using hoes to do the farming. If you do not have a tractor, you are gone. So, Southern Province, was allocated K2 billion for cattle diseases. We have the same disease because our animals graze from the same plain in the dry season. So, we also need that K2 billion to afford our animals medication. Mr Chairman, we need dip tanks, boreholes and dams. It is very important that clean drinking water is supplied to our animals and to ourselves. 

Mr Chairman, we have a lot of health centres in the Central Province. Central, also, is the stomach. Everything that you do is in the central part and when you walk- that is why God put the stomach in front of us so that when you see that it is empty, you will go and fill it up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: Now, Central Province is the stomach for Zambia. We have health institutions like Kabwe General Hospital where people are dying of cholera. These are the things that the Ministry of Health should do. They should look for proper drugs. They should not wait for epidemics. Let them clean the environment and look for drugs so that when people are passing, it is clean. Some of the diseases are brought by the position of the province. People come from neighbouring countries and pass through Central Province and leave the diseases in the Central Province. So, we all know that prevention ... 

Dr Kamata: Prevention is better than cure.

Mr Shimonde: Sir, we need prevention which is better than cure.

There are a lot of accidents between Lusaka and Kabwe but if you do not give us enough medicine, the diseases that are coming from other areas are making the stomach to be in pain. Sir, we need these drugs.

As regards the Kabwe/Kapiri Mposhi Road, surely that is the road they use if they have to go to either Luanshya or another part of the Copperbelt, Luapula Province or Northern Province. They all pass through the Kabwe/Kapiri-Mposhi Road which is in a deplorable state.

We do not have to talk here in Parliament because they know it. They were holding provincial conferences and went through those patches. Accidents are happening day in and day out. Do we have to talk in Parliament? Take some of the Estimates money and fix that road.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: Some of the campaign money can be used to patch up the road. 

Kawena Forestry in Mwembeshi is our rain belt. We used to have some people called kapenda mabula. Today, these people are not there any more. Let us protect the environment and preserve the trees so that we continue getting rain.

Mr Chairman, the other point I want to raise is of equity on Government resources. When a minister is appointed from one district, he must provide funds to all other districts so that the projects are equally shared.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shimonde: I hope the new hon. Minister will make it a point that he shares Government resources equitably.

Mr Chairman, the Lands Department should make sure that when they issue title deeds, they should consult the chiefs because it is traditional land. Some people just simply fake papers by going to the Ministry of Lands and are given title deeds for the land which the chief is not aware about. So, they must make sure they have checks and balances on that.

The Ministry of Education should also co-exist with the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Simuyandi (Pemba): Mr Chairman, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: ... thank you for giving me the time in which to deliver my maiden speech to this august House. Sir, allow me, first of all, to thank the President of the Republic of Zambia, who is also our President in the MMD, Dr Frederick J. T. Chiluba, the Members of the MMD National Executive Committee for adopting me in the Pemba Parliamentary By-elections.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: My thanks also go to the MMD Pemba Parliamentary Constituency Executive Committee, the people of Pemba Parliamentary Constituency, the campaign manager Hon. Suresh Desai, MP, who is also Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries, and his team in their respective roles which culminated in the momentous MMD victory over the Opposition UPND, ...

Mr Mponda: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: ... on 26th September 2000. It is noteworthy, Sir, that over the last nine years Pemba Parliamentary Constituency has experienced five elections, two general elections and three parliamentary by-elections. It is noteworthy also that throughout those five periods, the people of Pemba have voted and have remained steadfastly behind the MMD. And I think that they deserve ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: ... special commendation for that tremendous support.

Sir, may I also express my gratitude to my former employers, Rothmans of Pall Mall (Z) PLC, for granting me the leave of absence to enable me to participate in the election process, my wife, children, relatives and friends for their love and encouragement throughout the campaign period.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: I take the opportunity, posthumously, ...

Mr Nyundu: You have a good wife!

Mr Simuyandi: ... to thank my predecessor, the late Hon. Stanford Chimwengele Mudiyo, MP, for his work and contribution to the well-being of the people of Zambia in general and the people of Pemba in particular. May His Soul Rest In Peace.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: Mr Chairman, it is a great privilege and honour for me to stand up for the first time to, indeed, address this august House. The past two months or so I have sat in this august House have been rewarding in terms of learning and grasping the art of parliamentary etiquette and debate. Sir, I feel the hour has come when I feel the Pemba song must play in tandem with others. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuyandi: Sir, our song has not always been about happy times I might add - for death has often knocked at our door. The Republican President, in his Speech on the occasion of the Official Opening of the Fifth Session of the Eighth National Assembly on Friday, 19th January, 2001, regretted the loss of forty-one Members of this august House over the last nine years. As hon. Members may be aware, two of those who died over the said period were Members of Parliament for the Pemba Constituency. Once, again, May Their Souls Rest In Peace.

Mr Chairman, the President’s speech contained other important aspects of our Government’s rule over the last nine years and for which I heartily congratulate him. For example, Sir, the President spoke about the need to improve the road infrastructure particularly in the rural areas through the Road Sector Investment Programme. This particular programme is of vital importance to us in Pemba and many other rural constituencies that are eager to improve roads not only for good passenger transport but more so to improve the haulage of agricultural produce to markets. The equipment procured for this purpose, and now in the hands of our hard working Zambia National Service personnel, should be deployed for such work sooner than later.

In this regard Sir, it would be good to see much more sharing of experiences and information with regard to rural development amongst Members of Parliament representing rural constituencies who I believe are in the majority in this House.

Mr Chairman, consultations with regard to developmental projects will enable us cut on time and expenses which might go to hiring consultants in undertaking feasibility studies for specific projects. The House will recall, for example, that when the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba, MP, presented his Budget Speech on Friday, 26th January, 2001, he stated that investment promotion was now going to be more product focused and location specific. He added that in this regard, the Zambia Investment Centre under the auspices of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing would assist each and every district to formulate investment profiles in order to assist in directing investments to areas whose endowments have already been identified.

Mr Mulongoti: Speak up, Tonga Bull!

Mr Simuyandi: Sir, as I have already stated, this exercise would be less costly if Hon. Members shared experiences and information in the area of investment promotion.

Mr Chairman, let me now conclude my speech by briefly giving some insight about Pemba Parliamentary Constituency. The Constituency is situated in Choma District and much of it is rural. It encompasses two chiefdoms fully namely Siamaundu and Moyo and attends to Chief Singani in part. As a plateau area, many of the rivers and streams empty their fast flowing waters down to the valley where the flow continues to the Zambezi River. To ensure that much of this water is returned for human consumption and agricultural purposes, there is need to construct more dams which can be administered by the fifty-two zonal co-operative societies that are currently operational in the constituency.

Sir, in terms of other infrastructure, the Constituency has fifty primary schools and three secondary schools. There are also a couple of rural health centres but no hospital. These institutions are an important means of delivery of social services but, unfortunately, the structures of these institutions are in a dilapidated state and there is an urgent need for repair. The same, Sir, is true for the feeder roads in the Pemba Constituency which also require immediate attention.

Finally, Mr Speaker, at the last registration of voters, it was estimated that there were 20,000 registered voters in the Pemba Parliamentary Constituency with thirty-four polling districts. It will be appreciated in the next exercise to be conducted by the Electoral Commission to ensure the delimitation of Constituencies. It will also assist poverty alleviation.

Lastly, I think that there will be continuity in the Pemba Parliamentary Constituency to enhance co-ordination and development of projects and the sensitisation of people on various local and national issues such as Government policy on agriculture, civic education, gender equality and HIV/AIDS. I wish to congratulate you on your able manner in conducting business in this House and joining the chorus of many other hon. Members on congratulating various Members of this House on their various achievements..

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Chairman, I would like to make some comments pertaining to Lusaka Province. This is a unique province in the sense that most hon. Ministers are coming from the constituencies in Lusaka but there does not seem to be a good working relationship between those hon. Ministers in the line ministries coming from Lusaka and those representing rural constituencies. 

It is shocking, Sir, that the roads in Lusaka Province, particularly in the rural areas, are amongst the most deplorable roads in the country. One wonders why one has to go via Chirundu to get to Chiawa when if there was a road and, in fact, there is a road mapped  by the colonialists, many years back but it has never been attended to by any Government since 1964, it only takes thirty minutes from Lusaka to Chiawa using this mapped road rather than more than two hours via Chirundu. I think those who represent Lusaka Province in Cabinet should bring some of these things to the attention of their colleagues.

Mr Chairman, one wonders why there is no link between Lusaka Province, in particular Chongwe District, and Mkushi. A road was there many years back and there was a pontoon linking Lusaka Province via Shikabeta to Old Mkushi. When the hon. Minister for Lands now was in Central Province, there was a move to link Old Mkushi and the Great East Road via Shikabeta but that project has not materialised. One wonders what has happened. The Vice President did ask us to go to our constituencies at one time to bring out these sentiments to the Government. This, we did. We put these things in our reports. Sometimes, it makes standing up to discuss provinces irrelevant.

Mr Chairman, Lusaka Province is the leading province in terms of loss of forest in the country largely because this Government has not come up with an effective policy on deforestation and rural electrification. We have lost a lot of trees and we keep on losing trees but there is no movement from the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources to deal with this issue. I would have loved to see an office of the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources set up in one of the areas of which one is Chinyunyu...

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

Dr Chipungu: Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I was urging the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources to think of setting up an office in one of the worst hit areas of the country as far as deforestation is concerned and that is an area in Chief Bundabunda called Chinyunyu.

I think if we were serious that we are concerned about environment because the destruction of those trees there is on mutual basis between the people in Lusaka where there is the demand and the readily available supply at Chinyunyu. To do so, I think it is high time that we created sub-bomas in many parts of this country especially in Lusaka Rural. This is one area where you hardly have sub-bomas. One would love to see, for instance, a sub-boma between Chongwe and Luangwa Bridge, preferably at Chinyunyu. And the value of these sub-bomas is that you open up your rural areas deliberately and you begin to target certain resources to go into those areas and, therefore, attract people from the urban areas to rural areas in a more dignified and acceptable fashion as opposed to situations where people simply set up settlements without any guidance from the Government.

Mr Chairman, the point earlier made by the hon. Member for Chipangali (Mr L. L. Phiri) about the condition of the health facilities particularly the hospital at Mpanshya Mission is something of great concern. It is not only for the people of Lusaka Province but also for those who come from Eastern Province and those going to Malawi or coming from Malawi and anybody going beyond Chongwe.

Mr Chairman, we have had several accidents and that information has been relayed to this House. It is saddening, Sir, to see death which could be prevented. Here is a huge hospital which does not even have a mortuary or oxygen facilities and does not even have an X-ray but look at the volume of patients that it attends to because of the Manenekela Escarpment. Many people have lost relatives who may have survived if that hospital had been turned into a much more serious national hospital than simply a mission hospital with very little Government support when, in fact, many of the people who go there are citizens of this country and not necessarily those with a missionary inclination.

Mr Chairman, one of the major issues in Lusaka Province which needs attention by several relevant ministries and the Executive is this issue of land speculators. There are some areas which do not see any investor looking for land. There are areas like that and, therefore, many people from those areas may not appreciate the impact this land speculation has on those areas where land demand is high like in the Lusaka Province.

Mr Chairman, you may hear of problems in Chiawa. Those are not unfounded problems. They are real because they are living just next to Zimbabwe where land grabbing is the order of the day. The idea that the people this side may not take over land that has been given to non-residents may not really be far-fetched because everyday there are people going to Chinyunyu, Sinjela - to all these rural areas - grabbing land. Therefore, we have some officers in the councils who are benefiting from this situation and who are encouraging people to grab land and easily assess papers. If the Ministry of Lands is not very attentive, then title deeds will constantly be given at the detriment of Lusaka Rural. I think this is an area where the Government must be extremely serious and considerate.

An issue, which also requires attention, which I have heard several times alluded to in this House is that tourism is an engine of development. If we are serious, one of the areas that has shown potential is Lusaka Province, particularly on the Kafue and Zambezi River. Lower Zambezi now is a household name for potential tourists. This is why land speculators are getting land near the lower Zambezi so that they can sell it to potential investors. Now, tourism has a potential but the roads leading to lower Zambezi are impassable. I think now that we have a more energetic hon. Minister of Tourism, we are waiting to hear what strategy there will be for lower Zambezi and roads to tourist resorts 

I thank you, Sir.

Major Kamanga (Lumezi): Mr Chairman, I thank you ...

Mr Mweni: Boxer!


Major Kamanga: Mr Chairman, we have a saying in Eastern Province which I will interpret. It says, akoma mudyanyemba mutaya makoko saibala. This means biting the finger that feeds you.

Mr Chairman, the people of Eastern Province have been taken for a ride for a very long time.

Dr Pule: By UNIP!

Major Kamanga: And yourself.

Mr Chairman, we have time and again heard people say Eastern Province is divided and that it should be left alone and we will deal with them at a later stage. We have been listening and we know. There is another saying in Eastern Province over the issues of development which says, chaipila galu kukunda mbuzi. This means that it is wrong for a dog to headbutt a goat but it is all right for a goat to headbutt a dog 

Mr Chairman, we have seen and have been promised and the best answer we have received is to go the offices. Money was allocated to build the Chipata/Muchinji Railway. Not even a single ngwee has been released to date. It is all stories. 

Roads in the province are in a very bad shape. Very little is being done. We appreciate the little that has been done but you could have done better and you can do better. The people of Eastern Province are crying. Mr Chairman, it is the only province without a properly constructed Trades Training Institute. Classes are conducted under trees. We are told here that there is Katopola and Polytechnic. Have you been there?

Dr Pule: Tulekula uno mwaka!

Major Kamanga: You have not been there. Do not take us for granted. Mr Chairman, time has come and we will flex our muscles.

Hon. Member: Again!


Major Kamanga: Mr Chairman, ...

Mr S. P. Mulenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr S. P. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, I rarely rise on points of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor, in order to continue preaching the language of violence?

Mr Mweni: After beating your brother.


Mr S. P. Mulenga: I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairman.

The Chairman: In that point of order, Hon. Major Kamanga you are being asked to amplify what you mean by saying that you will flex your muscles. 

Will you continue, please and explain what you mean.

Major Kamanga: Mr Chairman, the hon. Deputy Minister for Lusaka Province need not fear. I am not a violent man. I am very peaceful.


Major Kamanga: I extend to you the olive branch.

Mr Chairman, what I meant by us flexing our muscles is that we will now tell and show you that we are not what you think we are and that we are not going to be trodden upon. You have promised us so many things and nothing is happening.

The Chipata/Muchinji Railway line has been on the drawing board for long time. In fact, if we asked you to give us the designed plans for that railway line, you will not give us. We will have to go to the national archives. It means it is a closed chapter. Our colleagues in Malawi have brought the railway line right up to the border. They have spent a lot of money and we, here, just leave it like that because the people in the Eastern Province are disorganised.

Mr Chairman, it is the only province where animal diseases are not being attended to. Since 1964, has there been any move to lift the ban of bringing animals from Eastern Province to Lusaka because of the Swine Fever? We have got foot and mouth disease in Southern Province. On several occasions we have had cholera coming from Luapula Province. Fish is flowing despite it being off season. In Eastern Province, we are not allowed to sell our goats or cattle here in Lusaka. Why is this happening to Eastern Province alone? If it is something of serious concern, then why do we not do something about this Swine Fever? A lot of you in the middle and Front Bench go to hunt in Eastern Province. You allow game meat to come here. Why do you not ban it altogether so that our wildlife can be protected in Eastern Province.

Mr Nkole: We do not allow getting annoyed here.

Major Kamanga: Yes, I am very annoyed.

Mr Chairman, look at the schools in Eastern Province. When we look at ourselves here or the country as a whole, there are products of Katete, Chassa, Chizongwe and St. Monica’s secondary schools. Look at what they have produced. Another three years from now, there will be nothing to write home about. The people of Eastern Province are asking why you have looked down upon them.

Mr Chairman, there is need for the Government to establish roads maintenance schemes and the old camps to be re-opened in Eastern Province. We need them. Even the new road which has been ...

Mr Harrington: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Harrington: Mr Chairman, I also very rarely rise on points of order but I am compelled to do so. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Luangwa, Hon. Mando, who is also Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services in order to challenge me by saying that whilst I have sought to enlighten Zambian citizens on the danger of the solar eclipse on their eyes and health, I have not done anything to protect wild animals as well as domesticated animals by providing solar spectacles to them ...


Mr Harrington: ... at this late hour when we have already concluded the Budget? Is he really in order, although I am Minister of Tourism and interested in prevention of wild life, to say I have not catered for wild and domestic animals? 

The Chairman: The hon. Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services in that statement is asking the Minister of Tourism to give permission to the Deputy Speaker and him so that they take their rifles with them on that day to go and see the behavioural pattern of animals as a result of the eclipse of the sun. So, in that context, he is very much in order.

Will the hon. Member for Lumezi, continue, please.


Major Kamanga: Thank you, Mr Chairman. When I was interrupted, I was talking about the need for road maintenance camps to be re-established in Eastern Province. Are you going to wait until the road is completely damaged that is when you will move and bring in a contractor to re-do the whole road? Even the road from Lusaka here, you look at the way it is, it is getting damaged and nothing is being done. If the maintenance teams had been there, they would have been immediately working on these roads. What are we doing? You are asking us to come to your offices. No, we do not want to go to your offices. Come and see the way roads have been damaged. We are telling you what is happening on the ground. 

Mr Chairman, there will be hunger in Eastern Province this year. We appeal to the Government to send in disaster management teams to look at the situation in Eastern Province. Fertiliser has not been delivered at all. What has been delivered is nothing to write home about. As you drive along the road, you will see the yellow maize.


Major Kamanga: We need serious assessments in our province on the issue of food this year. The people of Eastern Province do not want the Government to come at the last minute.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for giving me this chance to add my voice to the debate on the Floor.

Mr Chairman, there is a saying in English which says that success makes a fool seem wise. I am speaking on behalf of Solwezi East Constituency and the entire North-Western Province and, of course, without forgetting Zambia as a whole.

Mr Chairman, Solwezi East Constituency, the constituency that I represent is a constituency which has no secondary school, boma, good roads, bridges and transport. As I said, I represent even the people of North-Western Province. Let me take one part of North-Western Province which is a road that leads from Chingola to Solwezi. On this road, it has been reported that one of its bridges has been swept away by the heavy rains of this year. This is the same road which hon. Ministers use. A week or two weeks ago, Cabinet Ministers and party officials were in Solwezi to witness provincial elections but I do not know whether they went there blindly without seeing what was on the road and without seeing how the road was looking. I do not know. Success makes a fool seem wise. That is a key word. 

When you have an area where there is no secondary school, it means people of that area are being denied education. And Zambians should not be proud to say we are doing fine when other people are suffering right there in Solwezi East Constituency. 

Mr Chairman, some two years ago, we experienced similar rainfall whereby we were ordered, as hon. Members of this House, to go and assess the situation in our areas which we did, and I was one of them. I wrote a report which I presented to the Office of the Vice-President. Now, instead of healing the damage of that year, we are experiencing another additional damage to the roads which were not repaired after the damage of the first rains that we had. One would even think even if you do not stay there, you can even imagine that suppose such a thing happened to your area, what would you have done? Success makes a fool seem wise.


Mr Kangwa: Mr Chairman, today some people are short and tomorrow they will be tall. Today, some people are tall, but tomorrow they will be short. This is what happens. 

Mr Chairman, I, with my people of Solwezi East came up with one suggestion that we should ask for a boma in our constituency. Mr Chairman, this boma is to be called Mushindamo. Mushindano used to be a boma during the colonial days. If a white man who was not my brother or sister could feel sympathy on the people of Solwezi East and give them a boma, what of you who are black like me?


Mr Kangwa: Why should they fail to give me a boma for those people of Solwezi East Constituency?


Mr Kangwa: Mr Chairman, there is a road that leads from Solwezi to Kipushi via Mushindamo Boma. From Kipushi, it goes up to Lubumbashi in Katanga Province in Congo DR. This is the road which was used during the Kabila/Mobutu civil war by our soldiers and most of them said they were prepared to help us with bridges there, but unfortunately, after this event everything was forgotten.

Mr Chairman, how many times are we going to talk about the same thing. Year in and year out, we continue talking over the same thing instead of advancing new things, you keep on hammering on one thing as if you are talking to people who do not understand.

Sir, when people are not there, water speaks ..

Hon. Members: Water?

Mr Kangwa: Yes, water speaks when people are not present. Do not think that we are so weak and dull to think what we should do and what is good for us, no! You rush there when it comes to election time. You visit places that you do not visit during the time when there are no elections. This is not right.


Mr Kangwa: I am a Member of Parliament but I am not in Government. So, take it from me and even if you make noise, you are making it for nothing because you do not know what I am talking about.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kangwa: You are the people who just sit in the offices without going to your constituencies.

The Chairman: Order! Time is up!


Miss Mwansa (Mfuwe): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to say a few words on the Vote on the Floor.

Mr Chairman, allow me to join those colleagues of mine who have talked about the road network because I feel that is the key to success. Sir, when we were in Mpika recently for the MMD Northern Province Conference, somebody there stated that the Great North Road is actually not a Northern Province road. Yes, the road does help us to get to the Northern Province but in effect, this road serves a lot of people from Lusaka, Copperbelt and other provinces because they take their merchandise from their provinces to Tanzania to the ocean, but what does it do for the people who live in the Northern Province? Virtually nothing.

Mr Chairman, I tend to agree with those sentiments and we, in Northern Province, would be happy if roads like Mpika/Kasama, Kasama/ Luwingu, Kasama/Mporokoso and the like were properly done, but this has not been so. We have done the Great North Road and we feel that we have served the people of Northern Province. No, the people there want something more than that.

Mr Chairman, while I am on the Great North Road, I would also like to urge the Government to bring a Bill to this House expeditiously so that it compels the transporters of heavy loads to use the rail line because this road is not going to be there in a few years time and I do join my colleague there who talked about the need to maintain the roads. I do not know why in Zambia we feel that once we have done something we should forget about it until it is completely washed away, then we re-do the things again.

Mr Muloji: Hear, hear!

Miss Mwansa: Mr Chairman, the British or English have a wise saying which says; ‘ A stitch in time serves nine’ and I think it is about time that we developed a culture of maintenance. This will serve us in the long run. Let us not wait until something has completely collapsed before we start re-doing it again.

Mr Chairman, I would like to urge the Government that the people they give contracts to do the roads must ensure also that they do the drainage. There are no drainage systems on our roads and as a result, the water is always on the surface of these roads and, therefore, the roads cannot withstand the pressure of the water and that is why we have roads which are not strong enough to last. I remember when I was a young kid, I would listen to the sound of water as it goes down the drainage because the people who did the roads then had the foresight to do drainage as well. What has gone wrong with our people? Is it that we do not foresee these problems?

Mr Sikombe: No common sense!

Miss Mwansa: I think we do. I would like to think that Zambians are great thinkers. So, let us act.

Mr Chairman, I have seen that in the Yellow Book under Northern Province, the Government has allocated K3 billion for feeder roads. This is very good but I would like to urge the people who have got the mandate to do the roads that they do the job at the time when it is appropriate. What happens now is that we rush into doing the roads as soon as the funds are released. We can wait and keep that money in the banks and in that way, it will even earn some interest, then come and do the roads when it is dry. Doing the roads when it is raining will not get us anywhere and, if anything, we just make things worse.

Mr Chibambula: Correct!

Miss Mwansa: Maybe, people in Lusaka and elsewhere do not think so but I can assure you that the people in the villages know about these things and they even laughed at me when I went there. They said, 'Hon. Member of Parliament, what is wrong with you? You mean you do not understand that when you do the roads, you loosen the soil when there is water?' I said, 'I think you have got a point there.' So, let us do things which are appropriate. At the same time, I would like to pay tribute to the Roads Board and to the able hon. Minister of Communications and Transport, Hon. Professor Nkandu Luo, because this department is doing tremendous work and if we only had a few departments like them, I think Zambia would tick. This is a department which appraises project proposals and disburses funds within the nick of time.

Other departments - I have been going there for years until I forgot about the project that I started because of the inertia, they do not want to appraise the project or if they do, they bring another conditionality which was not even there, what they call changing of goal posts. They are always changing goal posts because they want to keep holding on to the money which belongs to the Zambian people. For goodness sake, let us disburse funds and make sure that we serve the people of Zambia.

The Department of Roads is one department that I would like to commend and I would like other departments to take a leaf from the Roads Department.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Mwansa: Mr Chairman, I would also like to dwell briefly on the agricultural sector. Mr Chairman, in my constituency, for instance, in Nabwalya, I am told that there were great growers of tobacco and cotton. This has completely vanished. The people there have been sort of misplaced because of this emphasis on maize and the fertiliser issue. I think, as a Government, it is incumbent upon us to make sure that our people are encouraged to grow things that they know best how to do instead of emphasising maize and fertiliser. Everybody queues up for fertiliser. Even those who do not need it are queuing up for fertiliser and I think it is a problem of the policies that we have put in place. If we had the sense of encouraging people to grow the things that they are best capable of doing and which can grow in their areas, things would work out. The people of Nabwalya, for instance, do not need fertiliser to grow cotton and tobacco. And this is why other countries like Zimbabwe and Malawi are thriving. Why is it that we Zambians cannot also do the same things?

So, I would like to urge the Government to look at themselves and act accordingly so that this great country can go forward.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr A. M. Mwila (Kalulushi): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor.

Mr Chairman, a lot has been said about roads. On the Copperbelt, most of the trunk roads have been done and I commend the Government for that. Unfortunately, the Kitwe/Kalulushi Road is in a very bad state although it is an economical road in that the new mine which has been opened on the Copperbelt, Chibuluma South, will need to use this road to take their concentrates to Kitwe. It is also the road which Kafubu Depot of Zaffico uses to transport our timber. It is also the access road to our Southdowns Airport and an access road to Lufwanyama and Kasempa. I am hoping that the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, who has been giving me a hearing, will look at this road.

Mr Chairman, the hon. Member who was on the Floor just before me did allude to the fact that we do these roads, but we do not have a maintenance programme. In South Africa, there are toll gates. You cannot move from one big city to another without going through a toll gate. The toll fees that they charge are used for the maintenance of these roads. It is about time the Government also looked at the toll gates because the toll gates that will be put in place will raise enough money to maintain the same roads we are talking about.

Hon. Members: There is fuel levy here.

Mr A. M. Mwila: If we just depend on the fuel levy, it is not enough to do the roads and maintain them. If we have to be serious about improving the roads network, toll gates should be considered by the Government.

In my constituency, Kalulushi, the roads within the town are in a deplorable state. At this juncture, I would like to thank my mayor and the residents who are spearheading the maintenance of roads within the town. The community is doing a commendable job under the circumstances. I am happy, Mr Chairman, that K3 billion has been set aside for feeder-roads in the Copperbelt Province. My hope is that the exercise will start as soon as the rainy season is over and there will be no delays.

Mr Chairman, we are all aware that the investment we are talking about has come to the Copperbelt. The Copperbelt, now, is a bee-hive and a lot of people are trooping to the Copperbelt. Therefore, with the influx of people, our police service needs to be well equipped with transport, radios and even computers to be able to fight the envisaged crime on the Copperbelt. In the same vein, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security needs to monitor the working conditions prevailing on these mines. I, therefore, urge the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to adequately fund their department on the Copperbelt. In the same vein, the Mines Safety Department needs to be funded so that they can do a thorough job on the new mines.

I with to thank Chambishi Metals, Mr Chairman, for they have started a community empowerment programme in Chambeshi. These are the investors that we are looking for who are doing something for the community and not just taking away what is in the community.

On water affairs, Mr Chairman, K18 million has been allocated for the whole Copperbelt for bore hole drilling. I do not know how the hon. Minister for the Copperbelt intends to share this money or we are going to have one mother of a borehole to service the whole Copperbelt. The amount that has been allocated is inadequate and it will only be fair for the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to allocate more money to this department.

On the land issue, Mr Chairman, retrenchments are going on the Copperbelt. Our miners have bought houses, but some of them are now being retrenched. They have the money, but they want pieces of land to go and farm. I, therefore, urge the Ministry of Lands to look at this seriously or else we are going to have a lot of illegal settlements. In the same vein, I am happy that the hon. Minister of Lands is saying they will expedite the issuing of title deeds for the house owners. This ought to be done urgently, Mr Chairman, so that people who want to use their houses as security to access bank loans can do business on the Copperbelt.

In the health sector, Mr Chairman, I am a happy man to report that the Government has built a mini-hospital in Kalulushi. The only problem we have is that we do not have an ambulance for the Kalulushi mini-Hospital and I ask the hon. Minister of Health, who is also in my constituency, by the way, if he can consider allocating an ambulance to Kalulushi mini-Hospital.

Mr Kavindele: I will.

Mr A. M. Mwila: Under tourism, Mr Chairman, Kalulushi has Chembe Bird Sanctuary which ZAWA should consider as a tourist attraction on the Copperbelt. I think it is not fair to always talk about Livingstone and the game parks as the only tourist centres. We should diversify and look at other areas. We all cannot be trooping to Livingstone year in year out. Other areas need to be considered.

With those few remarks, I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Dr Kabanje (Mwandi): Mr Chairman, first of all, I wish to thank you very much. Yesterday, you cautioned hon. Ministers to pay attention to us when we debate. I have been extremely uncomfortable here, ever since I came in this House. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply has been heckling at us. I wish he was here, I would have said one or two things.

However, Mr Chairman, I wish to congratulate my friends who so gallantly and valiantly showed that it is sometimes important to be principled. I am talking about my friends from the Southern Province - I was born in Southern Province - who heroically demonstrated that their democratic values can also develop. We have a saying among the Lozis that they are ‘Tonga bulls’ or in short ‘TB’. Tonga bulls are those who are tough and strong. TB are those who are negative. Congratulations to those who are strong, Mr Chairman.

I would like to think that this is a crucial Vote. It is like the Truth and the Reconciliation Committee, except that it is the truth and failure committee. Everyone who stood here has come out with one important message. The Government has failed the people of Zambia in many important respects.

My contribution, therefore, is to focus very clearly why this failure has taken place and why this failure will continue to take place unless we are able to move away from personalised leadership to institutional leadership at provincial and local level. I am talking about institutionalised and adequate governance rule. You cannot talk about democratic governance, Mr Chairman, when the local and provincial structures are not well put in place. 

Let me say, Mr Chairman, that this Government has destroyed structures which existed. It has failed to come out with any viable structures. Let me illustrate. In Sesheke, we used to have an airport many years ago. Today, there is no airport. It is called the local court centre, Mr Chairman. They call it local court centre because that is where most of the local court cases dealing with adultery are conducted. It is no longer an airport.


Dr Kabanje: Mr Chairman, Nakatindi Road has been given a very interesting name. They are calling it ‘ Abortion Avenue’. The reason is that if you are in an advanced stage of the pregnancy, you should be advised not to travel on that road.

Now, hon. Ministers, when you travel in other countries, do you feel dignified that you are able to minister over such a disastrous state of affairs?

Mr Hachipuka: Say that again!

Dr Kabanje: To be an hon. Minister, in my view, is to walk with your head up and dignified. It is not only about driving a Volvo, but it is about saying, I delivered to the Zambian people. 

Mr Chairman, I would like to dwell on a matter which has been exaggerated by tribalists. Sir, as you know, Western Province, politically, historically, and constitutionally is called Barotseland. Now, I want to raise this point because many people, especially hon. Members of Parliament from the MMD, feel so uncomfortable when you talk about Barotseland. I would like to tell them, through you, Mr Chairman, that there is nothing tribal in that. It is a historic and political entity.

I am not a tribalist. I am a socialist revolutionary and as Hon. Machungwa may tell you, my first born child was supposed to be Castro ...


Dr Kabanje: ... but my wife said in Lozi we do not have ‘r’, this child would be called Castlo and he might be a difficult child. 


Dr Kabanje: So, I am a socialist revolutionary. I am not a tribalist. I am making it very clear because today, everybody in this country is talking about the right of people to self determination. When you talk about the right to self determination, you are enhancing the democratic principle, democratic governance. Mr Chairman, during my sojourn with the Mwanakatwe Commission, something very remarkable, which I would like to share with this House, came out.

First of all, people were generally apprehensive about the Barotseland Agreement. They thought it was a charter of tribalism and tribal hegemony. However, when it was explained that it was talking about concurrent jurisdiction and exclusive jurisdiction, nearly all the provinces agreed. They said there was nothing wrong with that. I am talking about the need for our political system to come out with an organised and systematic system of provincial governance.

Sir, let me illustrate. At Local Government, you have an elected council which is able to debate, make a budget, although the budgets as we all know, are hollow but nevertheless, they are pleased to have powers. Now, at provincial level, Mr Chairman, you have nothing. What we have is an hon. Minister who is appointed and after one or two serious blunders, he is fired.


Dr Kabanje: Western Province has the greatest succession rates of hon. Ministers coming in and going out making it appear like they are incompetent. They are not incompetent. It is the system which is incompetent. I am saying so because even at provincial administrative level, the permanent secretaries in provinces consider themselves to be sub-permanent secretaries while line ministry permanent secretaries travel overseas all the time. It is God’s blessings for a provincial permanent secretary to travel. 

Mr Chairman, as student of democracy, I believe in genuine democracy. I believe in people’s power at an elective platform. What we should focus on in terms of policy is that the provincial governance should be the centre. It should be an experimental basis for eventual control of the central governance. 

In many countries, Mr Chairman, before somebody goes to the pinnacle of power, or becomes the leader of the country, he must have gone through the mill. He was probably an elected mayor, he served as governor of a state and eventually when he becomes a president, he will know that power is about elections.

Mr Chairman, I wish to state that all the progressive countries today, in the world, are moving away from autocratic and centralised authority, reflecting neo-mediaeval power arrangement. They have moved to a new system of governance from the local level to the provincial level.

Mr Chairman, I would like to see our country move forward to have elected provincial assemblies which would be able to debate adequately. This, Mr Chairman, would be able to enhance the delivery capacity of our Government. Mr Chairman, as long as we rely on personal authority instead of institutional authority, our country will not develop because each person will always be subject to the whims of the leader in State House at that particular time.

Mr Chairman, all the countries which have copied from Zambia, including South Africa have, now, advanced towards ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time is up.

Mr Chola (Kawambwa): I thank you, Mr Chairman, for affording me this opportunity to add my voice on this important debate.

First and foremost, Mr Chairman, I would like to pay tribute and congratulate the hon. Deputy Ministers serving in the Government from Luapula Province ...

Mr L. L. Phiri: Teka bola panshi iwe.


Mr Chola: ... and my fellow hon. Members of Parliament for the job well done and for the hard work they are doing to make our province tick and to organise the people or Luapula Province politically. They are a source of inspiration, especially to us, new hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Chairman, I would like to dwell on agriculture and not necessarily on fertiliser which has been dwelt on so much. I will talk about something else.

This is about the provision of farm implements to the small scale farmers in the rural areas. One thing has been left out especially on the farm implements. I appreciate the efforts being made by the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. I also praise them and Food Reserve Agency (FRA) for trying to help small scale farmers. You have to look into the plight of small scale farmers by the provision of cattle, donkeys and tractors so that they are well equipped. For example, they could bring up a scheme of hiring tractors and we would be interested in hiring such farming implements. 

The other thing I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister is to send specialists to train goats how to farm, seeing that we have a lot of goats in our area.


Mr Chola: Please, that animal has draught power and is very much needed.


Mr Chola: We have got plenty of goats in our area.

Mr Chairman, I wish to talk about the Rural Investment Fund. Luapula Province is the only province which has not benefited from RIF. I have been to the Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries and RIF Headquarters in Kawambwa. Only five projects have been initiated since the inception of RIF.

Mr C. Ngulube interjected.

Mr Chola: Shut up iwe Ngulube iwe!


Mr Chola: Mr Chairman, I am appealing to the line ministries to look into this Rural Investment Fund. Is there a problem at district level? The District Agricultural Officer and his special staff, who look after the RIF, should look into equipping more staff like engineers at district level or most probably to transfer these District Agricultural Officers to other places to go and see what others are doing in other provinces and districts.

Mr Chairman, on the road sector, this time most of the roads in our province are impassable. We need the Ministry of Works and Supply, in conjunction with the Ministry of local Government and Housing and Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to look into the plight of funding for the maintenance of feeder roads. 

Sir, there is a saying in Bemba, ‘Apakomaila nondo ninshi pali ubulema’. This means the point where the blacksmith keeps on hammering there must be a problem. 

We have got two roads which we cry about day in day out. One is the Pedicle Road, which is an eye-sore. We have also got the Mansa/Luwingu/Kawambwa/Nchelenge/ Kasama Road.

Mr Mweni: Hear, hear!

Mr Chola: We will not stop talking about that road. It is no longer necessary but political. People are now saying if you do not tar this road, we are going to do a, b, c, d. We are very worried, not because of those threats but because of the movements.

Hon. Members: What is a, b, c, d?

Mr Chola: Mr Chairman, on the issue of roads, there was a programme by the Ministries of Works and Supply and Local Government and Housing, to train the small scale road contractors. I am sure my fellow hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers will remember that three contractors from each district were brought to Lusaka for training. Afterwards, they were taken to Chifwema for more practical training. 

Mr Chairman, since 1998 up now, those trainees have never been called for road training trials. This means those trainee contractors cannot be given any contract to do anything on the roads, but that expertise is very much needed on the road. What are the line ministries doing about this wastage? The money used under the World Bank Programme just went to waste. Those trainees are just in the villages waiting to be called for road trials and so that they can be given contracts to do better jobs on the road. What are they doing?

Mr Chairman, we have two important feeder roads and the Ministry of Works and Supply did a good job by bringing Ploughman’s Road Contractors to the Luapula Province who did the road the road from Mukobe, Chitondo up to Kamfukeshi. Surprisingly, they only did embankments without touching the roads. We have no problems with embankments but the road is in a deplorable state. Please, Ministry of Works and Supply, come back and do the roads. We have appreciated the good job on the embankments.

Between Kawambwa Tea Company and Katungulu, there is a very important embankment which enables workers to travel from Katungulu and other places to Kawambwa Tea Company but now that embankment is full of water. Our people are suffering. The water reaches their necks. Please, Ministries of Local Government and Housing, Works and Supply, ba RIF ku Agriculture, please help us.


Mr Chola: Mr Chairman, I wish to complain to the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development on the ZAMSIF programme. Kawambwa is one of the districts in Zambia never to have benefited from ZAMSIF. Right now, out of sixteen projects, only three have been brought to ZAMSIF headquarters in Lusaka. It is not the problem of Ministry of Finance and Economic Development because they are doing their jobs but the problem is with the regional facilitator. I am appealing to the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to look into the transferring of these regional facilitators. They have over stayed in provinces. In our province the regional facilitator has even put up night clubs in all the districts. So, he has diverted from doing the Government job to running night clubs. We are very worried.


Hon. Member: Fire him!

Mr Shumina: Do not fight mwana.

Mr Nyundu: Get annoyed!

Mr Chola: ZAWA - Ministry of Tourism, please ba hon. Minister come and look after Ntumbacushi, Lumangwe and Kabwelume Falls which are tourist attractions in our province and part of Northern Province. Last year, there was money allocated for the rehabilitation of these places. Up to now, since 1964, they are just the same. I have seen the money in the Yellow Book, please, come and develop these three tourist centres.

Zambia Wildlife Authority is not doing anything. The game rangers are the ones leading the poachers to places where a lot of animals are ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired!



Mrs Nondo: Mr Chairman, thank you ..., 

Dr Kamata: Gender issues!

Mrs Nondo: ... for allowing me to contribute on this Vote. Mr Chairman, Southern Province has got two new districts, namely; ...

Dr Kamata: Kazungula!

Mrs Nondo: ... Itezhi-Tezhi and Kazungula. In our language we say, ‘Utalumbi mubwa’.

Dr Kamata: Ushitasha musha.

Mrs Nondo: ... meaning that a person who is not thankful when given something is a dog. Mr Chairman, the young district, Kazungula has recently received quite a bit of attention. I would like to thank those who have contributed to turning Kazungula into a district. Sir, the Ministry of Lands offered Kazungula land development funds where we have to develop our new site for the district.

Mr Chairman, people of Kazungula are now enjoying boreholes which they never knew. More are expected and I hope that they will be sunk soon. We are very grateful to the Government. Kazungula is going to have a bridge which is going to cater for three nations namely, Namibia, Botswana and Zimbabwe. It will also make it easier for those who are afraid to use the pontoon, which breaks down now and again, to walk across freely.

Mr Chairman, a few days ago we saw the initiating of Shelter Afrique Programme by the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. This is an encouragement to the people. They have been looking forward to having this district for a long time but now that things are happening, I am sure they will again look forward to seeing that the Budget, which was praised by many including the Opposition, is implemented before we wind up.

Mr Chairman, coming to roads, Kazungula is as it was when I came here. It is now worse because even those roads which were done are now almost impassable. I can give an example of the Musokotwane Road, leading to the palace, which was done by the Norwegian Agency by labour intensive but someone went and graded it and destroyed the road. Right now, reaching Musokotwane is very difficult.

Mr Chairman, I have just been informed that the engines of the Mulobezi Railway Line have been derailed and this means that the people of the upper Ngwezi, Mulobezi and Moomba are completely cut off because you cannot go there by road. Sir, wherever people have developed, there should be a network of roads. Sir, to have schools, clinics or any other public institution, you need good roads. Sir, here we are now, my district is crying for relief food this year...


Mrs Nondo: And we need food relief. Crying for food.


Mrs Nondo: Well, it was just a slip of the tongue...


Mrs Nondo: Sir, the people are crying for food this year. How do we deliver that food if there are no roads? Not even a truck can pass. Sir, the rail line, which is supposed to help, is also derailing the trains.

Mr Chairman, I am grateful to Zambia Railways for making tremendous efforts in rehabilitating coaches but the railway line itself is pathetic because every week there is a derailment. We are just fortunate that we have not lost any life.

Mr Chairman, on water, we have sunk a number of boreholes in the province as I have already said and only yesterday, we heard that the Government of Germany is going to give Livingstone some water aid. Sir, in my constituency there is a part which has been condemned as one where a dam cannot be constructed. My constituency is drought prone and if a dam cannot be constructed there, how can people survive? If you go there during the dry season, you hear of the people and their domestic animals, especially those near Sekuta, shift to the Zambezi River, being attacked by crocodiles. The reason is that they go there in search of water. Sir, this is what we are supposed to look at as a Government.

Mr Chairman, as new districts, Kazungula and Itezhi-Tezhi need clinics and hospitals so that they do not run to other districts for these services. The district should be self-sufficient.

Mr Chairman, on education, I would like to say that most of the schools are not rehabilitated. If you go around those schools, you will find heaps and heaps of sand, stones and bricks moulded by the people and yet we keep talking about BESSIP. It is now one year since we talked about introduction of BESSIP. I have only seen one school done under BESSIP and yet the people have been applying. We should not de-motivate them. Sir, we have asked the people to build their own clinics and schools but when they do their part and we do not support them, this means that the next time we ask them to do something, they will be reluctant.

Mr Chairman, on agriculture, I am very grateful to the ministry and I hope that what has been started will continue. In my Constituency, there is a pilot project where people have been offered donkeys and ploughs for draught power. Sir, this should be extended to others. While we fight animals disease, people will be using donkeys. Last year, we heard of a woman who was being harnessed and I do not know whether that case was investigated.

Mr Chairman, the Food Reserve Agency failed lamentably to collect the pay-back-maize by the community...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member's time has expired.

Mr Hlazo (Mumbwa): Mr Chairman,...

Hon. Members: Yebo Nkosi, khuza wena.


Mr Hlazo: Mr Chairman, I am a very happy man to note that a lot of colleagues of mine on the back bench have recognised my presence. Sir, I am grateful to you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the provincial Vote. 

Apparently, when the MMD was campaigning last year, they made a lot of promises in my area. They assured the Nambala and Moono people that the school was going to be electrified. They even assured them of the amount which was required. Apparently, the MMD always believes in bribes but you were rejected.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Hlazo: You can say Aah!. I am here as a Member of Parliament and I will be here. 


Mr Hlazo: I am here to stay, for your information. Good-bye to others. Kiss this House good-bye.


Mr Hlazo put his spectacles on the head.


Mr Hlazo: Mr Chairman, ...

Mr Ng’uni interjected


Mr Hlazo: ... my concern ...

The Chairman: Order! Will you remove your spectacles from your head.

Continue, please.


Mr Hlazo: The young hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development, like his colleague says, must show leadership. The quality of leadership is worrying.

Mr Chairman, I have pointed out the pseudo behaviour which went on when these elections were taking place. I would like to remind the MMD that in case they want that seat, they will have to pull up their socks but since there are no socks available, I shall certainly keep mine up.

Now, this morning, the hon. Minister of Tourism, who I would like to congratulate, gave a very good breakdown of what is going to happen with the eclipse of the sun. Mr Chairman, what measures are being taken to improve the road network? We have seen a lot of graders and bowsers for the Zambia National Service. If I may ask the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, what is this equipment which came in supposed to be doing apart from us just seeing them being stationary? I thought this was the time that equipment could have assisted in repairing the roads which are totally dilapidated. 

Hon. Members: It is still raining.

Mr Hlazo: That is the sad part about Africa. What has the rain got to with the work? Mr Chairman, these people who have travelled on LPOs have never gone to see places. They are so limited because of the funding given to them on their travels.

Mr Chairman, We have another outcry in Mumbwa. In actual fact, I would like to echo my fellow Mumbwa Member of Parliament who spoke earlier than me, who touched on quite a lot of areas I also wanted to touch. I must really thank him. He has been so observant.

Mr Shimonde: Hear, hear!

Mr Hlazo: Yes, Great Shimonde, you spoke very well.

Mr Chairman, we have an issue over the road from Lusaka which passes through all the constituencies up to Mongu. There are so many ministers and Members of Parliament coming from there and I do not know why they have not stood up against the road.

Mr Chairman, I would like to appeal to the Government, through you, that we need very serious attention to be given to these complaints I am putting across. We have another issue, like I said earlier on. The hospital in Mumbwa is no longer a district hospital. The Kanyama Clinic is even bigger than the Mumbwa District Hospital. There are a lot of problems which that hospital has been facing over the years. I would like to appeal to the hon. Deputy Minister of the province to pay a lot of attention to that hospital. A lot of deaths could be avoided if something had to be done about it.

Mr Chairman, we have an issue of the morgue. Half of the time, it is broken down. So, I would like the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to know, as well, that a lot of corpses have been found on the floor instead of being in refrigeration.

Mr Chairman, talking about clinics, I have a building in Nalubwi area where my hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry comes from. He will surely bear with me that the people in that area have to travel for more than forty kilometres to attend treatment. Several times, I have pointed out that if we can turn one building around that area into a clinic, I think they will really appreciate.

Mr Chairman, the other issue that we have is the supply of water. The Mumbwa dam has become one of worst problems in terms of water for drinking. We have a lot of rains but it will disappear before we get into June because we do not capture it to stay. There are a lot of reservoirs but they are not well looked after.

Mr Chairman, coming to the issue of the prisons, Mumbwa Prison was one of the best in the country but, unfortunately, it has been neglected. I remember very well, this is where mama Lenshina was imprisoned for a very long time as well as Dr Kenneth Kaunda. That is supposed to be a historical structure but there have been a lot of problems.

Hon. Member: I was there for a long time.

Mr Hlazo: In actual fact, my friend Sam was there.

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

I am looking for somebody from Lusaka Province.

Hon. Members: They are all ministers.

The Chairman: I see. So, we start all over again.

Mr Mulongoti (Lufwanyama): Mr Chairman, thank you for giving me an opportunity, once again, to add my voice to the Vote on the Floor.

Mr Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Keembe for retaining the seat as Provincial Chairman for Southern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: In the same vein, I would like to also welcome back to the House, Hon. Chimbwe. In democracy, my brother, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: So, do not feel dejected. You quietly sneaked in. Cheer up. You are part of us.


Mr Mulongoti: The same thing happened to Hon. Sonny Mulenga when he met his waterloo. He came and quietly sneaked in.


Mr Mulongoti: In democracy, you come in freely. When you have lost, we want to see the same vigour you went with.


Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairman, I would like to thank a number of hon. Ministers who are helping us in Lufwanyama like Hon. Chikamba who is helping us in our resettlement programme.

I would like, also, to thank Hon. Ng’uni, a very practical young hon. Minister. Some of us do not know how the Constituency Development Fund came about. I think he started that programme and we are enjoying that. A few weeks ago, he sent a letter to all of us to indicate the roads that we want done in our constituencies. I think this is what we expect from our hon. Ministers to be practical. What is unfortunate is that the hon. Minister of Works and Supply is not around. He is showing a lot of energy in pursuing other causes.


Mr Mulongoti: We want him here so that he listens to our problems. In the Vote for the Copperbelt Province, there is K3 billion. This K3 billion is under HIPC. I think that is not comforting enough. We want funds that will come from our Treasury. Now, if he is not here and he cannot listen to what we are saying, whatever causes he is pursuing in the interim are not helpful to us.


Mr Mulongoti: So, Mr Chairman, I am worried that the feeder roads in my constituency will not be attended to. The hon. Minister for the province is a good and hardworking man. But goodness is not enough. We would want to see you more in our villages because you spend a lot of time in towns. We have a few months left and we would like our chiefs to be dialoguing with you within these few months. For whatever cause, we want you there.

The shortest way to North-Western Province is going through the Kalulushi/Kalengwa Road. Do you know that, Hon. Muloji?

Mr Muloji: I do not know.

Mr Mulongoti: Now, you are busy trying to solicit for funds through Chingola.

Mr Muloji: Talk to the Chair.

Mr Mulongoti: Hon. Muloji, let us work together. I would like to make it easier for you to get to your village.


Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairman, please consider the Kalulushi/Kalengwa Road which is the shortest way to the North-Western Province. We have to travel by gravel road to reach Kasempa Road. Why should we use a long road? I know the hon. Minister who removed the Vote on that road many years ago. I will pursue him one day.


Mr Mulongoti: We want that road tarred as well. They started the programme and a quarter way through, they stopped and forgot about it. I think it is not fair that you do a thing half way and ignore it.

Mr Chairman, this is a difficult year. I would like to move around my constituency quite quickly because there is mobilisation. I would like to take my chiefs and parade them here and there.


Mr Mulongoti: You do not know what my political programme has been since 1991. I have also been planning a few things.


Mr Mulongoti: Now, if my roads are not done, you are a hindrance to my political career.


Mr Mulongoti: So, please, tell the hon. Minister of Works and Supply that I have a serious programme this year. I would like him to come to my constituency so that I can show him the shortest route to where I want to be going.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr Musakabantu (Nominated): Thank you, Sir, for giving me a chance to contribute to the Vote.

Mr Chairman, I would like to begin by referring to two issues on the subject of agriculture. I did not have the chance to talk on agriculture, perhaps, I can now take advantage of this Vote.

Mr Chairman, I note that a lot of investors we are getting to this country who want land are concentrating on the rail line to the extent that we will end up creating a super Lusaka or super Copperbelt. I would like to suggest that since most of the South Africans are coming to Zambia seeking land in the name of investment, and since we have had enough from Livingstone to Chililabombwe, perhaps these people can be directed to other places where we may need them, if we need them that is.

What is worrying is that we get young boys literally being sponsored by their parents to come here in the name of investing and they are not opening up new lands. They would like to buy off Zambians so that eventually, they take the land. I think this is unfortunate. If local authorities need them somewhere, maybe, they can liaise with the Ministry of Lands. There are certain places, obviously, where investment in that sector might be necessary at the moment. I think areas like Kalomo, Mazabuka, Chisamba, Mkushi are saturated with these people. We may end up with new exclusive areas for whites only. These people must be allowed to mix with the indigenous people. But, at the moment they want to have their own separate areas, a kind of bantustans. I think it is not something that I would like to see in this country.

The other issue, I would like to refer to is something to do with animal health. There is a wise man who is an anonymous philosopher who said that a country without livestock will never be rich and a country with livestock will never be poor. Now, unfortunately, when we talk about livestock, we tend to restrict ourselves to only cattle and, maybe, fish, chickens and many more. My cousins in Western Province should be encouraged to, if possible, ranch the Hopani and serve it in the hotels so that we can have access to it. I have never tasted it but, I think, I would like to look forward to a moment when the hon. Member for Mulobezi will persuade me to have it. 

The other point, I would like to move to is environment. In this part of the country, we have Chunga and Chongwe rivers around Lusaka. When you get to Kabwe, you have Muswishi River. I think the contamination levels of these rivers is worrying.

I would like the hon. Deputy Minister of Environment and Natural Resources, especially that he originates from Chongwe to take an active interest in Chongwe River. I think our people in Chongwe are not drinking clean water. That water is bad. All the sewerage opens up into Chongwe and Chunga Rivers. I do remember him raising these very points when he was a back bencher way back in 1992/93. So, I think he will take the opportunity now to look at that.

The other issue which the hon. Minister of Environment ought to look at are the forests. The design of these forests is such that they are supposed to sustain life in the cities like Lusaka where poorer people who cannot afford electricity can at least have access to charcoal for their energy. Unfortunately, we have now got used to accommodating so many people from all over the world rather than Zambia, and even opening up forests. You will find people from other countries getting into these forests which hitherto have been taboo. These are the areas that are supposed to give us timber and help us with the construction of beautiful houses out of wood. But because we have allowed people to move into these areas, the water system is getting affected and the whole environmental system is getting affected.

When you look at the Chongwe/Chibombo area, up to Lukanga, you see a watershed or basin which is in fact a source of water. It required one fellow to come all the way from Holland in the name of Heaven on Earth and target it. We should target those areas and encourage the growth of trees rather than deforestation. I think if that is done, we shall ensure that we, ourselves, keep alive.

Mr Chairman, I must pay tribute to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. I was particularly impressed yesterday with the kind of work that they showed us on what they are doing in the provinces. I think if all ministries did that and if they brought their officials here time after time and show us what they are doing the way the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development did yesterday, we would get to know more about Zambia and get to be useful and get information and when we are asked to allocate more money to a particular ministry, we will have seen what they are doing.

Now, Mr Chairman, I want to refer to a comment made by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. He made a comment that it should not be the duty of the Central Government to send money to councils and I quoted him right because I had made a submission that people in councils are not being paid. He was answering and said, 'It is the duty of the councils to look after their employees.' The point Sir, is that we have only one hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. We cannot have small ministers of finance all over, Chibombo, Chongwe, Lufwanyama and many others. 

The hon. Member for Mwembeshi was crying that the road should be done through Nampundwe up to Mumbwa. We have Blue Lagoon in his constituency, I believe.

Mr Shimonde: Hear, hear!

Mr Musakabantu: Tourism is attracting a lot of money. Maybe, the hon. Minister of Tourism, energetic and young as he is, one day think of a provision where those areas that are contributing to tourism can have something given to the council or at least, whatever is attracting moneys. When we get people paying for seeing the beautiful animals in the Blue Lagoon or the black lechwe in Mpika, why can we not have some of the money from there go to local councils because those are the local resources?

We have, for instance, in the ministry of Lands areas like Kalomo, Chibombo or Mazabuka, where you get a lot of farmers paying millions and millions of kwacha in ground rent. The money comes to the Central Government and nothing goes to the local council. I would think that if a method was to be worked out such that at least a portion of that money went to local councils, our people would benefit a lot from the timber, fish and minerals. If some money was made available to councils, they would not be crying to Central Government because at least they will have a share out of the local resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga (Isoka East): Mr Chairman, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to make a contribution on this very important Vote.

In doing so, Sir, I have chosen to break my submission into two. I will deal with the macro-economic level and then go into the details of the micro-economy which is referring to specific projects as you directed Sir, in my province and constituency at large.

Firstly, there are some fundamental policy problems that we need to address ourselves to if the provisions that are being made in the Yellow Book are to be meaningful. Let me attempt to explain what I mean by that.

Sir, the Provincial Ministers at the provincial headquarters are surrounded by various ministries. If one just opened any of the provinces, you will notice that there is hardly any projects that are provided for under those ministries and I will attempt to mention some. That means that there will be salaries paid, but without sufficient recurrent expenditure which they can use to carry out the projects. Therefore, we are carrying a Government overhead that is not value-adding. I believe that on a policy level, it is necessary for us, as a country, to decide where local government starts and ends.

At the moment, at district level, the office of the District Administrator, that office belongs to the Office of the President. So, you have a Head of State in the Office of the President right through to the district level at the District Administrator.

There is a bit of an overlap now especially with the appointment of the District Administrators between the Councils and Central Government, in form of the office of the District Administrator. This, Sir, has created problems. The District Administrator is supposed to co-ordinate the various ministries but has no authority over them or control over the allocation or projects in those ministries because it is the responsibility of the hon. Ministers concerned with that particular ministries.

Sir, it is my submission that it is necessary for us to deal with a fundamental problem that many other developing and developed countries have had to face and that is the devolution of power from central control to the local communities. That means that you cannot afford to have the Office of the President at the district level if you want local administration to take control.

I want to make reference, Sir, to the then local authorities. The model that was used of the District Commissioners was such that there was a lot more autonomy at the local level. For example, the schools were referred to as Local Educational Authority Schools and the control was left at the local level not at national level as far as individual schools were concerned.

Sir, I have had examples of such models for instance in Japan which can be regarded as a very well developed country. The local administration does not raise sufficient money to sustain their programmes, they have to rely on Central Government subvention and programmes to fund them and that is a developed country. So, I am rather concerned that when people start talking about the problems of district councils are entirely for the district councils, this cannot be sustained because as some of my colleagues have already indicated, the issue of taxes, generally speaking, go to the central government.

Let me give the example of the office of the District Administrator and I have just done some sums here for all the nine provinces and the amount comes to just under ten billion. Consider the following:

Table i

This comes to just under ten billion kwacha. If you go to page 156 and look under Local Government, you will see that the grants to district councils amount to K4.722 billion.

Hon. Members: Shame!

Mr Sichinga: I want you to understand the implication of that, and what it means that the councils have a maximum support of K4.7 billion against District Administrators with a Budget figure of K10 billion. Now, all of us here are members of one council or the other part from nominated Members and you know as well as I do through the Chair that we having difficulties even sustaining the salaries of the workers. This current model, Sir, cannot work.

Mr Chairman, I submit that there is necessity to segregate and adequately fund the district councils and I submit and I know that to others, it might sound very revolutionary, but I think that we should do away with the provincial offices because there is no value adding. I would rather the delivery points to which services and funding go be the districts and I in fact submit further Sir, that each of the constituencies must be made a district in its own right and let the funding go directly to the districts and let them run their own projects because a model that starts from the bottom going up, is a better one than one which is passed down... 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: ... because you have expenditure as you will see in all the provinces here that the bulk of the money goes to the Central Government and the districts and constituencies do not see the benefit of those offices. I believe that if such a model was implemented, it would enhance the delivery of the services closer to the communities. 

Mr Chairman, I want to just illustrate by quoting from three provinces what I mean by this. Lusaka Province has a total budget of K8.4 billion. Of that amount, as I said, the District Administrator’s amount is K771 million. The amount allocated, for example, to roads, is K3 billion out of K8.4 billion. This, Sir, is the same figure as you will find under the Central Province, K3 billion. It is the same figure you will find under the Northern Province, which is K3 billion. I do not believe that the needs that they have for the roads maintenance can be the same. So, this kind of budgeting, in my view, is not recognising the peculiarities of the individual locations and individual areas and I will try to illustrate that when I come to the issue of the macro economic part of it.

Mr Chairman, I also want to submit that there are differences between what appears in the Yellow Book as budgets and what appears in the Public Investment Programme. Some projects that are indicated here are not indicated in the Yellow Book, meaning that although you have made a provision, it is not reflected in the Budget for the year. I submit, through you, Mr Chairman, that the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development needs to go through these figures again and re-examine what I am talking about and I can give examples outside the gathering here.

Mr Chairman, let me turn now to some of the problems that affect the Northern Province. I will start with Isoka District. Under the Ministry of Health, Isoka District Hospital is non-existent at the moment. I am thankful that you have made indications to my colleague, Hon. Sikombe, that your ministry is deeply involved in this matter and you are doing something about it. Please, remember that it is servicing Nakonde District, Isoka West and Isoka East and we do not have a district hospital. As though that were not enough, there is not even an ambulance to service that district. 

I also want to remind the hon. Minister of Works and Supply that the Mbala/Nakonde/Chitipa Road needs to be worked on, it is Item No. 108 in the Ministry of Works and Supply. The whole of my constituency, Isoka East, does not even have a single bore-hole. So, what kind of equity are we talking about? That is why we spend so much time here everyone wanting to talk about their particular constituency. There should be a standard procedure that we should follow. Every district and constituency must have the minimum number of bore-holes for clean water. 

Hon. Minister of Tourism, we need to have a road to go to Nyika Plateau. That part which belongs to us as well and your predecessor had agreed to go to Nyika Plateau with me. Now that he has moved to the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, I do not know how he is going to do it, but I must invite you to come along with me and enjoy the beauty of Nyika Plateau. 

I need to make reference to the Kasama/Isoka Road as well as the Mbesuma Bridge. Hon. Kapangalwendo tells me that only heaps of sand have been acquired from the K2 billion that has expended for the year 2000. This project ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Chairman, I want to pay tribute to my cousin and friend, Hon. Keembe, for withstanding pressure against all odds...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shumina: ... for surviving and telling the people of Zambia that Zambia is for all Zambians and we are all concerned to make sure that we do the best in our country. 

Having said that, Mr Chairman, first of all, I am very grateful that you have asked us to specifically debate seriously looking at our provinces. 

Mr Chairman, Barotseland which you are now calling Western Province was a country on its own. It had its own Government and a very successful government for that matter. Even when the British went to Barotseland, they found a system which was second to none in the world. It is against this background that we would want to be very affirmative when we refer to the needs of people of Western Province. 

All of you are calling yourselves Zambians because of our forefathers in Barotseland who were courageous enough to work with Northern Rhodesia and form what we now call Zambia. Sir, it is against this preamble that I would like to refer to the traditional leadership in Western Province. 

Mr Chairman, the Western Province palaces are in a very deplorable state. The roads leading to these palaces collapsed. For example, last year the bridge at Mutondo Palace was washed away. The Government was informed. The Disaster Management Team went to Kaoma. Mr Chairman, we informed them about this last year in March and nothing has happened. The impact is very grave and negative because some school children, now, cannot go to school. The entire palace and the farming community in that area cannot reach Kaoma Town.

So, it is very important that when we talk about problems in our provinces, the Executive should not think that we are here to just talk about these things. This is because when they want the people’s mandate and those people turn against them, they should not think that those people do not want them. Sir, we have been talking about same things for ten years.

Secondly, Mr Chairman, the problem of refugees in Western Province. The Angola War has been very destructive on Western Province. Since 1963, we have been accommodating refugees. The impact on the environment has been very disastrous. On security in the district, when we talk about people being shot and vehicles being hijacked, old men and women dying on a daily basis because they are being shot with AK 47s, this Government stands up and says it is the Karavinas. What is Karavina when we are talking about death? Karavina is a Russian gun which has been brought to the Western Province by the refugees. And those guns are being used to kill Zambians.

Mr Nyundu: Tell them!

Mr Shumina: So, we are telling this Government that whoever thinks of another refugee camp in Western Province is an enemy of the people of Western Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shumina: We shall not allow anyone to go to Western Province and talk about refugee camps. If  anything, try them in your own land so that you see the impact of keeping refugees.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chola: We have one in Luapula Province.

Mr Nyundu: Tell them to go to Chinsali.

Mr Shumina: So, this should be taken seriously.

Mr Kapangalwendo: On a point of order.

Mr Shumina: The other point  is about cattle industry in Western Province. The identity and dignity of every Lozi man is measured by the number of cattle that he has.

Mr Chola: Lyonse niwe  ushalikisha.

Mr Shumina: What has been happening in the past ten years is very discouraging.

Mr Kapangalwendo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Shumina: We should all be aware that for the past five years, the cattle industry in Western Province has collapsed because there has been no deliberate programme ...

The Chairman: Order!

(Debate adjourned)


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 1256 hours until Tuesday, 6th March, 2001.