Debates- Wednesday, 14th March, 2001

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 14th March, 2001

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
 

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

Mr Speaker: I have two announcements to make for this august House.

REFORMS AND MODERNISATION COMMITTEE

I wish to inform the House that, at their meeting held on Wednesday, 14th March, 2001, the Standing Orders Committee adopted, in principle, the Report of the Ad Hoc  Committee on Parliamentary Reforms in the Zambian Parliament. The Standing Orders Committee resolved that, in order for Parliamentary Reforms to get underway in earnest, a committee be established to be designated as the Reforms and Modernisation Committee consisting initially of eight Members to be appointed by the Hon. Mr Speaker at the commencement of the life of each Parliament.

In accordance with the decisions of the Standing Orders Committee, I have appointed the following hon. Members to constitute the Reforms and Modernisation Committee of the Fifth Session of Eighth National Assembly:

1.    Hon. E. Z. Nawakwi, MP, Minister of Labour and Social Security;
2.    Hon. V. Malambo, MP, Minister of Legal Affairs;
3.    Hon. Dr K. Kalumba, MP, Minister of Finance and Economic Development;
4.    Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, MP, Chief Whip;
5.    Dr L. A. Sondashi, MP;
6.    Mr R. K. K. Sichinga, MP;
7.    Miss C. C. Mwansa, MP; and
8.    Mr J. Mfula, MP.

The powers and terms of reference of the Committee shall be as follows:

1.    In addition to any other duties placed upon it by any Standing Orders of the Assembly, it shall be the duty of the Reforms and Modernisation Committee to examine and propose reforms to the powers, procedures, practices, organisation and facilities of the National Assembly.

Provided that, in proposing such reforms, the Committee shall bear in mind the balance of power between the respective constitutional responsibilities, roles of the National Assembly and the Government and the duties of other House Keeping Committees;

2.    The Committee shall have powers when deemed necessary to adjourn and travel from place to place inside and outside Zambia to solicit information and seek evidence on the matters under examination;

3.    The Committee shall enjoy the powers, rights, privileges and immunities provided to Committees of the House by the Standing Orders; and

4.    In its reports to the House, the Committee shall include recommendations as to the implementation of any reforms proposed in such reports. The Committee shall elect its own Chairperson and the quorum of the Committee shall be four Members. The first meeting of the Committee will be convened as soon as possible to elect their Chairperson and also map out their strategy. 

In view of the foregoing and also to accommodate some hon. Members who have moved benches, I shall, even when the House is in recess, advise of the minor adjustments to the membership of the Committee to offer all hon. Members a chance to serve on the Committee.

Thank you.

The next announcement is as follows:

WORLD-WIDE WEB

Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that as one of the main components of Parliamentary Reforms and a means to taking Parliament closer to the people, a web site, world-wide web on the operations of the National Assembly is about to be developed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: To this effect, Friedrich Ebert Stiftung has committed substantial funding towards the project inclusive of staff capacity building. I would like, therefore, to put on record the profound appreciation of this House for the support given by the Friedrich Ebert Stiftung.

Hon. Members, a web site is a computer facility that enables savers or users to browse through a variety of information pertaining to the place, institution, structure or organisation. This facility spans the globe for information. Considering the importance of factual information to the operations of an hon. Member of Parliament, the National Assembly of Zambia has endeavoured to build capacity that will efficiently and effectively provide the necessary data of its origins and functions. The launch date and the site address will be notified soon.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER 17, 18(1) AND 96

The Vice-President (Lieutenant-General Tembo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 17 and 18 (1) if necessary, and Standing Order 96 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.

Mr Speaker, this is a straightforward motion which is meant to bring this meeting of the House, which commenced on 19th January, 2001 to an end today.

Sir, during the meeting, the House dealt with a number of important issues which included the consideration of Estimates of Expenditure for the year 2001, Questions for Oral Answers, Motions, Bills and ministerial statements. By the close of the day, today, the House will have considered eighty-six questions for oral answers and passed four Bills.

The House could have dealt with four questions for oral answers, but this has not been possible because of the tight programme before it.

As you rightly guided the House in February, 2001, Sir, this particular meeting is intended to consider and approve the National Budget to enable Government execute projects and other operations once money has been voted by Parliament. The questions that are in the pipeline will be considered when we next meet.

Sir, hon. Members of Parliament made important contributions in their debates on the Bills, Motions and Questions that came to the House and I want to commend them for that. Mr Speaker, it is only through constructive debate that good laws are enacted in a nation. Hon Members utilised each and every opportunity that arose on the Floor to probe Government into answering a number of issues. The Government bench is aware of how valuable every item on the Order Paper is to hon. Members. 

It is consequent upon this awareness that, every effort is made to satisfactorily answer all the issues raised on the Floor of the House. Sir, hon. Members will recall that some hon. Ministers have had to come back to the House with ministerial statements to answer issues that had been raised on the Floor of the House. This is how serious the Government takes issues raised by hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, as we go to our various tasks in the nation, allow me to urge hon. Members to play their important roles as leaders of their constituencies. It is equally important that hon. Members assess the extent of the damage caused by the heavy rains that this nation has experienced this year and see how best we can assist our constituencies.

Furthermore, hon. Members are expected to explain Government policies to the people. We have just approved the Estimates of Expenditure for this year. As Government releases the money for various budgeted projects hon. Members are expected to guide the people to ensure that the projects are  successfully completed.

Mr Speaker, permit me now to take this opportunity to sincerely thank you for the efficient and impartial manner in which you have handled the proceedings of the House during this meeting.

Sir, may I also commend the hon. Mr Deputy Speaker and the hon. Deputy Chairman of Committees of the whole House for the manner in which they have handled the deliberations of the Committees of the whole House during this meeting

I wish to take this opportunity Sir, to pay tribute to the Clerk of the National Assembly and his staff for their efficient services to the House.

In conclusion Sir, it is sad that the House lost one of its hon. Members during this meeting. May his soul rest in peace.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: Before I give the Floor to the hon. Members, the Chair merely wishes to remind the hon. Members that this motion is not designed to re-introduce the cross-country debate that we have already completed. It is simply designed to give the Leader of Government business in the House the opportunity to enable the House to get off with the business of the House. Hon. Members may not be aware that what you see here is misleadingly brief because the business of the House is, in fact, much bigger than what you see on the Order Paper.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, these last few weeks have witnessed the highest emotions and great levels of tension that I have never seen these last nine years I have been an hon. Member of this House since the People’s Revolution in 1991. I suppose this is because it is an election year ...

Mr Sibetta: Bauze! {mospagebreak}

Mr Patel:  ... and there is great uncertainty about the future for most hon. Members of the House in the nation as critical issues face our nation, of which I am sure we are all aware.

To understand the crisis and dilemmas, that we face and to see into the nature of man, people all over the world Sir, turn to stories and myth. Children are brought up on fables and such stories. For Christians, parables help believers to understand Jesus’ message and the greatest and the oldest stories come from ancient religions and cultures from all continents of the world.

Mr Speaker, I thought a story could help us understand the situation that we face now. So, bear with me whilst I tell a short story about human nature ...

Mr Speaker: Order! This House does not entertain stories, it debates facts. The hon. Member for Lusaka Central may debate facts, not stories. May he continue if he has any facts to debate.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, I would like to draw an analogy, there was once a land called Zambezia. This land was inhabited by many different animals but no people ...

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Member for Lusaka Central, it is still the same thing, you are telling a story. Next time it will be a fable. I take it that the hon. Member for Lusaka Central has something to say apart from that story. Maybe not? Yes, may you continue.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, I will attempt. During the course of the sitting, we have seen tensions rising and emotions running high. The reason for this is that while some of us apparently believe that the Zambians are happily on the right road to both political and economic development, others of us can see that this nation is on the verge of one of the fastest, most ill advised and avoidable declines the country has ever seen. To see selfishness in power trail without heed of this collapse, all concern for the poor ....

Interruptions.

Mr Patel: ... makes my blood boil.

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Chiinda: At his age.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Lusaka Central in order to be reading a speech when he is supposed to be debating?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs is raising a point of order on the debate of the hon. Member for Lusaka Central that he is reading a speech. As hon. Members are aware, you can consult your Standing Orders and Hand Books. Hon. Members may not read their speeches unless they are delivering their maiden speeches. Of course, members of the Executive are permitted to read their speeches because they contain policy. The rest of the hon. Members may refer to copious notes. The hon. Member for Lusaka Central may refer to what appear to be copious notes.

May he continue.

Laughter.

Mr Patel: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am trying to refer to my relevant copious notes. Mr Speaker, the district administrators have been appointed throughout the country using Government funds to pay salaries and to support the activities of political cadres, as His Honour the Vice President confirmed yesterday. The total package for 2001, Mr Speaker, is about K10 billion, a direct transfer from GRZ Treasury to political party activities. This is thirty per cent more, Mr Speaker, than what is being spent on the Auditor-General, the Anti-Corruption Commission and the Permanent Human Rights Commission put together. Since the district administrators seem to earn about K2.6 million per month on average as well as allowances and transport etc., the Government, obviously, values them more highly than doctors, teachers and other scarce and well trained people, Sir. Other civil servants have lost their jobs for being political, but it is apparently all right for the district administrators. This is completely unacceptable and it is immoral, Mr Speaker.

So, Mr Speaker, we seem to be returning to the days of the ‘Party and its Government,’ the very ‘PIG’ that we chased away in 1991. Through the sycophant district administrators, whatever is good for the party is agenda for the nation and the people have to take the results. This time the ‘PIG’ has foot and mouth disease and must be exterminated immediately. Mr Speaker, ...

Mr Simasiku: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simasiku: Mr Speaker, I reluctantly rise on a point of order on my good friend that, we will be denied an opportunity to reply. Is he in order to refer to a substance of debate that we have already discarded already in the previous debates? I need your guidance.

Mr Speaker: The point of order by the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and Economic Development is pertinent. It is evident to the Chair that the hon. Member for Lusaka Central prepared his copious notes before he was aware of the nature of the motion to be on the Floor of the House today. Now, he has studied the motion, which is that, ‘Standing Orders 17 and 18(1), if necessary, and Standing Order 96 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.’ In addition to this, the Chair had guided that it is not customary for this House to re-open debate at this time. This motion is intended to help the House deal with the long Order Paper before you.

May the hon. Member for Lusaka Central, if he has something else to say, relevant to this motion, continue. Otherwise, he may wish to give other hon. Members a chance to debate the motion.

Mr C. Ngulube (Lundazi): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me this opportunity. Mr Speaker, I support the motion and in supporting it, I wish to urge the Government and the donors and our co-operating partners to consider Zambia as a disaster country this year.

Sir, in almost all the provinces, the bridges have been washed away and the roads are a sorry sight, they have been damaged. In addition, we do not have enough food throughout the country. So, I wish to appeal to the Government that the time is now to look into all these problems. Otherwise, we will have so many problems to face.

Mr Speaker, I want to talk, particularly, about Lundazi that has been cut off from the rest of this country because of heavy rains this year. I wish to urge the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, Mr Mandandi, to consider Lundazi by financing it very urgently because three bridges have been washed away along the Chipata/Lundazi Road.

Sir, I wish, again, to appeal for relief food that since in this country we have a lot of problems due to late delivery of fertilisers and that the entire nation will be facing great hunger, the Government should start acting now. They should not wait to look at the problem in June or July. That will be too late for us. Whatever food will be available should be taken as food security.

With these few remarks, Mr Speaker, I support the motion.

Mr Miti (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, I support this straightforward motion. In supporting this motion, I want to say, in the first place, that may I congratulate all those who have taken up their new positions in Government and I wish them the best of luck. At the same time, while this Parliament was on, others joined us in the back-bench. They should not worry because I am sure that they will still enjoy themselves in the back-bench.

Mr Hatembo: We are enjoying.

Mr Miti: Mr Speaker, allow me to say that we are, now, in the fifth year of our Parliament, for some of us. The experiences in this House, Mr Speaker, are something that one requires to put on record. It is true that, although we have members of the Opposition who are twenty-five or twenty-eight ...

Mr Sibetta: We are now more.

Mr Miti: Do not create others who are not born yet. Their contribution in this House, Mr Speaker, is something that the Government is supposed to appreciate. I am saying so because our colleagues, and I am starting with them first of all, have a very big input on the goings on in this House.

Dr Sondashi: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Vubwi in order to say that you cannot count a person who is not born? When a woman is pregnant, can one not know that the woman is going to bear a child? Is he in order to disregard that fact of life, of a pregnancy?

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The Chair could have allowed the hon. Member for Vubwi to debate that particular issue. The understanding of the Chair is that the hon. Member for Vubwi was actually praising the contributions of the Opposition bench. 

To take advantage of that point of order for the record, in fact, the Opposition bench has twenty-two members and not twenty five as you had said.

May the hon. Member for Vubwi, please, continue.

Mr Miti: I thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance and I appreciate it. In fact, Hon. Sondashi is supposed to appreciate the fact that I have recognised the input of the Opposition. I think this must be accepted.

At the same time, Sir, we, on this side of the House, members of the ruling party, when the House is in session, debate realising that we are advising the Government, the system that is in power. I have said so, Mr Speaker, because the relationship between us, on this side  - members of the ruling party, and the Opposition on the other side, must be harmonious. It must not be a relationship that will create tension. In other words, when we discuss in this House, Mr Speaker, we need to look at issues of governance. We need to look at issues that are in the interest of our country.

Mr Sata: Adjournment eyo tulelandapo.

Mr Miti: No, what I am trying to say here, Mr Speaker, is that we need to look at these issues as we debate in this House. The Opposition, regardless of their political affiliation, must realise that during the debates, we contribute for the well being of Parliament and Zambia at large.

I have said this because there have been certain cases, Sir, when we have heard very nasty words being expressed, even among hon. Members of Parliament in this same House. I wonder if that is in the interest of Parliament. As we get back now, and this being an election year, I know we have a big task because we are going into the field to start a very big campaign for all of us to come back here. I think this is a good time for us to return to our respective constituencies.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama (Chipata): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this chance to support this motion.

In supporting this motion, I would like to thank the Front Bench and middle bench for the good job they have done in this House.

Mr Speaker, I just have few points to make. As we adjourn, we will go back to our various constituencies. Most of us here have constituencies. Even Hon. Sata who is looking at me so lovingly knows what I am saying.

Laughter.

Miss Malama: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to release the Constituency Development and Youth Development Funds in time. This is the money which will empower our people, who voted for us into this august House.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to take much of the time. I would only like to urge the hon. Ministers, especially the Front Bench that when they visit our various constituencies and districts, they should, through their line ministries, inform us of their visits so that we are aware.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama: Sir, you will find an hon. Minister or Deputy Minister visiting your constituency without your knowledge. With this atmosphere we are in now, you might be misunderstood one would be accused of not meeting an hon. Minister when, in fact, you were not aware. As hon. Members of Parliament we need to meet our hon. Ministers whenever they are in our constituencies. They need our support. 

Hon. Members: Right!

Miss Malama: We are with the people on the ground. We are the people who could inform the Minister about the needs of our people.

Mr C. Ngulube: Get annoyed.

Miss Malama: Mr Speaker, this is not strange and I think some of the hon. Ministers can bear me witness. They can come to Chipata and Chipata is a Central Constituency; I need to be aware when an hon. Minister or Deputy Minister is coming.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Malama: Sometimes, it may not be the wish of hon. Ministers, it may be the fault of the line ministry, who has invited a particular hon. Minister who do not pass on the information.

I, therefore, urge the Permanent Secretaries to inform all hon. Members, especially back-benchers of their visits.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir,

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta (Luena): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this chance to contribute to the debate on this motion. 

I really wish to thank you for your parental guidance with which you have conducted the affairs of this House during this session. I think this has been the most difficult session for you and even for us as your hon. Members here assembled. I really wish to thank you on behalf of my friends, who may not have the opportunity to say a word or two on this motion.

Mr Speaker, I will be failing in my duty if I do not extend my thanks to the Right Honourable Vice-President (General Tembo) and Leader of the House.

Mr Sata: His Honour, you!

Mr Sibetta: His Honour who has been put under pressure ...

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: ... by his own party. Unnecessary pressure ...

Mr Patel: Sata!

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: ... to the extent that he has had to move from the Government House during the rainy season.

Laughter.

Mr Sata: On a point of order, Sir

Mr Speaker: Order!

To begin with, the issue of where each one of the hon. Members of Parliament stays or lives does not arise for debate in this House.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The Chair is interested in seeing the quorum formed and decisions made. Besides, as all hon. Members are literate and have access to the media, the hon. Members may have heard the official explanation on what the hon. Member for Luena was about to refer to. May he continue and leave our residences alone.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi: Leave the leaking House alone.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, I thank you for advising me to leave His Honour the Vice-President alone.

Mr Patel: But Sata will not.

Mr Sibetta: There is a lot of impunity going around, especially in the ruling party ...

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: This pressure is, now, being brought on the ...

Mr Patel:  On the hon. Minister of Education.

Mr Sibetta: ... hon. Minister of Education for no apparent reason.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! Hardly forty-eight hours ago, the Chair was saying it will not give up on hon. Member for Luena’s debate and that he should impress the Chair as much as he can. This time I would like to extend that invitation to his impressing the House as a whole. And in that impression, he is being called upon not to bring outside issues that he hears into this House. May we debate the motion. It is becoming clear to me that the motion is exhausted.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: I will call upon Hon. Sibetta just in case he is not exhausting himself. Maybe one or two more points then we decide.

Mr Sibetta: Sir, this is the kind of tolerance I have been thanking you for.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: And may you continue ...

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: ... to show this kind of fatherly leadership.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: We need this democratic dispensation from the Chair, as we move on in more deeper water.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: It looks like whether we like it or not, ...

Mr Sata: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter.

Mr Patel: You are just spoiling the debate iwe!

Mr Sibetta: Whether we like it or not, one of these days you may have to allow us to put a motion on the Floor of this House to discuss the disaster that has been going around in this country. It is much bigger than the flooding, and the damage that has been going on to our roads and the crops. This disaster, which is of a constitutional nature, would need your guidance when that time comes, ...

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! {mospagebreak}

Laughter.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to support this motion. This motion has come at the most opportune time because I have observed during this session the difficulties you have had to endure, Sir, in that, we are the only people in this country who you have had to contain with, to keep us away from the disasters and problems that the nation has been undergoing. We all want to go back to our constituencies so that we can provide leadership, check on our constituencies and advise our constituents on serious matters of the state that are currently under debate. The country at various forum has been discussing important national matters. Sir, we have had to contain ourselves, to show obedience to you and the state and perhaps to the extent were we have shown disobedience even to our Head of State, who has encouraged us to debate the Third Term.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr T. J. C. Phiri (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me the chance to support the Motion which is very straightforward indeed.

Sir, may I first of all take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Namuyamba, Member of Parliament for Itezhi Tezhi, my cousin, Hon. Sonkontwe, Member of Parliament for Chembe Constituency, Hon. Matubulani, Member of Parliament for Kalomo, Hon. Simuyandi, Member of Parliament for Pemba and my two younger brothers namely; Hon. Mumba, Member of Parliament for Msanzala and Hon. Nyangu, Member of Parliament for Nyimba, for their deserving appointments from the Republican President. 

May I also thank the President of the Republic of Zambia for having appointed a District Administrator at Katete District, Princess Eneless Banda, whom we, hon. Members of Parliament, in Katete District will definitely work closely with and ensure that Government projects are accordingly implemented. 

Mr Speaker, as we proceed to our constituencies, we have enormous responsibilities as hon. Members of Parliament, but I would like to say also that even hon. Ministers, who stay behind also have enormous responsibilities and duties. We have just completed the budget and we would like to see what we have approved in this House implemented. I just want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to keep his promise and this is what he said in his budget speech on page 15:

    “Mr Speaker, I have provided K40 billion to settle outstanding arrears to suppliers to Government institutions. To curtail accumulation of arrears this year by ministries and other spending agencies. I will ensure that allocations for operations, Grants and Capital are released in a timely manner and as approved in the Budget. This entails that, unbudgeted for requests from ministries and spending agencies will not be entertained by my ministry.”

This promise is very important. We, hon. Members of Parliament must ensure that the hon. Minister keeps to his promise. What has been the problem in the past is the releases of funds in to ministries under the system called ‘Cash Budgeting’ which in fact, has not been cash budgeting but has been ‘Cash Rationing’. I hope the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development will definitely keep to what he has promised this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti (Lufwanyama): Mr Speaker, thank your for allowing me an opportunity to support this motion, I am sure I am as excited as many other Members of Parliament who would want to go back to their constituencies to see the amount of damage done by the rains, and also those who are aspiring to take away our positions in the constituencies.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Members of Parliament who have ascended to the top, Hon. Namuyamba, Minister of Local Government and Housing Social Services ...

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: ... Social Security, I do not know. I cannot remember now.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Anyway, the hon. Minister has taken over the portfolio at a time when the expectations are very high. Yesterday, he was telling me that all the councils on the Copperbelt are on strike...

Major Kamanga: The whole country.

Mr Mulongoti: Is it the whole country? Anyway, he looks very fit and healthy now but a few months from now he will change. So, I wish you well, it is a big task that you have. The other hon. Members who have been elevated, we want to congratulate and wish you well. When I count Hon. Members in the back bench, they are eight of us who were once like you.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Having said that, I want to advise you to quickly learn how to play the game. If it is sloganeering or parading chiefs, quickly learn.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: If you do not know how to do it, you might find yourself with us here.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: This is just a friendly advise from a former Minister.

Sir, as we break off, my worry is the signals that are coming from the Executive. There is so much mudslinging in the press. This hon. Minister attacking the other hon. Minister, this hon. Minister calling the other hon. Minister a thug. Mr Speaker, they must show us that they are together. Where there are differences, let them resolve them quietly. It is not helpful to us. We want tourists to come. They will not come when they hear that there is a country where hon. Ministers are thugs.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we would like to assure the other people who have no say in this House and elsewhere, when it comes to leadership, that they are being led in the right direction. Words that have become very prominent of late are: thuggery, hooliganism, goons the list is endless. I do not think that is the kind of vocabulary we expect to get from people who are ...

Mr Shimonde: Lumpen.

Mr Mulongoti: Yes, and lumpen too. That is not the kind of language we are expecting. We want our hon. Ministers to show dignity and heap praise on each other. Help us to understand that you are in control. Press conferences do not build. What builds is the opportunity to sit, the two of you and resolve these issues. I do not think you have reached a level where you are afraid you can punch each other. Please, help us because this is a critical year, where most of the average Zambians today are looking to you to show leadership. If hon. Ministers start fighting, constituencies will be no go areas, we do not want that kind of thing. Some of us belong to the midget group, we cannot fight...

Mr Nyundu: We stone.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: We want to debate. Debate is talking in a place where the other person can hear what you are saying. Not where you sit alone and you are talking to another group of people who are not there, that is not debate. Debate is to give another person an opportunity to listen to what you are saying.

Mr Patel: And be able to answer back.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we have debated the Budget and it is almost approved in total. We want to see action. We want to see help in the constituencies, we want projects to take off. If you are going to spend all your time quarreling here in Lusaka, I can assure you that we shall incite people against you.

Mr Nyundu: To just stone them.

Mr Mulongoti: There will be no projects in our constituencies. What are we going to praise you for...

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Lufwanyama may not incite people against the Government. I know he has the protection of the privileges of the House but he may not in words incite people. The Chair is interested in the point he developed that members of the Executive should not publicly criticise one another. In fact, if I may guide the House, the House passed an Act of Parliament here, whose title is roughly, Ministerial and Parliamentary Code of Conduct Act. It is quite clear in that Act that members of the Government may not publicly criticise one another.

That point is extremely important even though it may sound to be unrelated to the Motion. But he may not then go on and say that he will incite people against the Government. 

May he continue in the acceptable tone of the debate.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, English is not my mother tongue and in my excitement, I used the wrong word and I would like to withdraw it. By inciting, I was talking about persuading people to see why they are not performing.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I believe in democracy like most of us who are here, unless you do not believe in democracy then you are in a wrong place. I do hope as we go to our respective constituencies, we will have an opportunity to explain why they should retain us, as MMD, in power. I am confident that the MMD will come back to power but it is up to us to put our hearts together. One may be in doubt that one will come back to the House, yes, I am not saying that all of us will be elected, I am talking about the MMD. Some of us may not come but we would like to wish all those who are going to come back well and that we must make it possible for them to come back. Let us not do things that will make it impossible for the innocent ones to come back. 

Sir, I would like to come back but I am not very sure. I was warned because of the way I am debating these days. I do not know whether I will come back.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, as a democrat, I am willing to give way to another person as long as he is going to come and say the things I believe in. That is what is important. The things I believe in, the things I stand for and the reasons that brought me here. That is very cardinal.

Sir, from January when we started sitting, it has been a very eventful period. In this very short period, I have come to know people I did not know because, even those who appeared to me to be very quiet and subdued, have emerged and their true colours have come out. I think in the few months to come, we shall see who is who and I am looking forward to seeing people stand up and say what they believe in. We can only promote democracy if we are sincere with each other and believe in what we are doing. I will be too disappointed with the hon. Members who will say something on the Floor of the House and go outside and say something different. This is why we are here. We are here to guide this country and we will only do it if we are sincere with each other.

Mr Speaker, I am seeing democracy develop in this country and this is exciting me. There are others who are willing to see democracy disappear, they are busy pulling democracy down and yet they are shouting democracy, democracy! I do not think that is the way forward. Let us promote democracy. We owe it to each other no matter where you are. Whether you are in the Executive or the back bench, we owe it to each other. This country will only go forward when all of us can pull together as brothers and sisters.

My last word of advise, Sir, to those who might not wish me well ...

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: ... is that there is an Arabic adage- if you do not like a person, you do not wish him well- which says, ‘if you do not wish me well, may a thousand camels drink in your well.’

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! Before I give the Floor to at least one or two Members, I would like to inform the House that, shortly, there will be a photographer in the Chamber taking pictures for the web site I was referring to. I will request the hon. Members to go on about their business without due attention to the photographer.

Dr Kabanje (Mwandi): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion. Many years ago, our people made a very important contribution. The children of Mbuyamwambwa, many years ago, decided that it was always more important to talk than to fight.

Mr Speaker, our democracy is strong because it is based on a triple heritage. That heritage is Christianity, thuggery and polygamy. This sounds contradictory but we all know that each one of us has a role model as a Christian. Sir, some people have taken Judas Iscariot as a role model. Some have taken King Solomon as a role model. I have taken King Solomon. He was a wise man and a polygamist and not a traitor.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, it is important that even those who have taken after Judas Iscariot should remember that Judas was principled. After he realised that he had made a tactical and strategic error, he decided to commit suicide.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje One way of falling short of committing suicide is to resign on a matter of principle.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, I have a big question which the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development has not been able to satisfy me. We are in the Free Trade Area. Therefore, it is important for our businessmen to compete favourably. The interest rate in this country is very high. It is the highest in the region. There is no way that you can deliver the new economic dispensation if the economic interest rate is very high. Hon. Members of this House, outside the political divide, should remember that politics is about the delivery of the economic cake.

Mr Speaker, I have emphasised time and again - because today, I am exactly four months old in this House but I feel vigorous like a four month old baby, kicking about, dying to be born.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Dr Kabanje: Mr Speaker, as long as we remain silent when the banks in this country are making our people go under, there will be no economic prosperity in this country.

Sir, even in the most free market, governments have made interventions. The only free market which is absolute is that which is in fantasy land. In reality, all governments intervene. Sir, what is the Minister of Finance and Economic Development doing about high exchange and interest rates? This is because when the interest rate is high, unemployment increases and our country stagnates.

Mr Speaker, today, in many parts of the world, governments are now financing ideas. If you come out with an idea, the bank should be able to support that but in this country, the Minister of Finance and Economic Development owes us an explanation why the ordinary Zambian cannot get a simple loan. An ordinary Zambian cannot get a loan in this country. If he does, he must forget about his house, property, etc. What are we here for? We are here to protect the interest of the Zambian people. The best way of protecting the interest of the Zambian people is to make sure that the Zambian people have access to credit. I have always said that the MMD Government is a government of capitalists who do not understand what capitalism is all about. It is about the credit system and credit must be cheap in order for the Zambian economy to deliver.

Sir, I have always said polygamy is good for the Zambian people. Likewise, cheap credit is important for this country. We should not be partisan about that. In fact, I can tell you that many hon. Members of this House, in their hearts, if they do not want to use the partisan politics, will understand that we are destroying the future of our children if we cannot control the interest rate.

Mr Speaker, I need an answer to tell my people that this Government is moving forward. It will not move forward as long as Zambians have no access to cheap credit. The white people who are coming in this country, though there is no racism implied, have what they call cheap money from the colonial world.

In the SADC region, Sir, Southern Africa, which is supposed to be the heartland of our economic development, has very cheap and competitive rates. Mr Speaker, I need an answer from the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development about that.

Mr Sibetta: The country is bankrupt.

Dr Kabanje: Talking about Barotseland or Western Province, because of poverty today, we are a laughing stock. The Tongas are laughing at us because we even have the lowest reproduction rate.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: The reproductive activity of Western Province is below the national average of three per cent. What has happened?

Laughter..

Hon. Members: You are lazy!

Interruptions.

Dr Kabanje: Finally, Mr Speaker, I have enjoyed my stay here and I have learnt a great deal, particularly from the hon. Minister Without Portfolio. I know that many people think he is fierce cobra but I find him to be an extremely charming debater. I have found him to be a genius of political manipulation.

Laughter.

Dr Kabanje: Sir, may I just say that, out of the three legacies that I have mentioned; Christianity, thuggery and polygamy, I do hope the hon. Minister Without Portfolio will know which legacy to strengthen and which one to pull down. In fact, before I became a Member of this House, I had the good fortune of meeting one professor, whom I will not reveal, who told me that Hon. Michael Sata is a genius by all standards. I have believed that and really, this gentleman, if only he could remember that after we climbed the tall ladder of democracy and reached at the top, we should not pull it down. We should let others climb so that in the end, we can set up ourselves. Democracy is about debate. Democracy is about change of power peacefully. Democracy is about good arguments. Democracy is what we want because in the end, we have to come to know one another, not that he is a UPND or MMD member but that he is a human being, a Zambian with a national programme. That is what it is all about. When we do that, that part of our legacy called thuggery will be removed.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Kamanga (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion on the Floor of this House.

Mr Speaker, as we rise, I remember the question I put forward to one of my colleagues, the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and Economic Development, Hon. Ng’uni. 

But I was later reminded, in fact, that he is 'Oldton' Ng’uni. When I told him about the situation of hunger and that we needed boreholes in Eastern Province, he asked me which part of Eastern Province. I told him the whole of Eastern Province. He talked about Luangwa having a lot of water when he was crossing the bridge. That is not what we are talking about.

Mr Speaker, what do we carry with us as we go back home as a message of goodwill to the people? I have difficulties in what I am going to say to the people in my constituency and Eastern Province as a whole. When you look at the maize as you drive along it is not a good sight and agricultural inputs are not available. Management by crisis is one that should never be encouraged at all. The Government has asked us to go and tell the people that fertiliser will be delivered in good time. It has never been so. What are we going to tell our people? This has been the worst year and there is hunger in Eastern Province. People will not understand or listen. Even if one talked about ZAMSIF, people will not be able to listen because the basics that the people want in our constituencies, are delivery of goods and the most important is food.

Sir, we have had a number of bridges washed away. In the case of the bridges on the way to Lundazi, the bill of quantities has been prepared but nothing is happening. Why can we not send the army to go and put up temporary bridges? We will very soon be hearing of people dying in road traffic accidents because of the improvised bridges where the bridges have been washed away. Should we wait for that? I do not think so. That is why they are there. The army can be called in to put up temporary bridges. Nothing is happening. They are developing cold feet. Management by crisis. The Government waits until the road is completely damaged and that is when it moves in. There are areas where potholes are just surfacing. What are we going to tell our people? Let us have our policies in place and let us move in that direction. Let us not just have policies and plans. The Government has had plans to build and refurbish the roads and so on but there is no maintenance programme.

I am grateful that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development had gone to check on the Chipata/Muchinji Railway line, but we have seen many of you come there and nothing has happened. When monies are released, let the railway line take off. The Government has always been telling us that the railway line will take off this year but we have always forgotten to ask you to name the actual year when construction work is going to resume.

Mr Speaker, this is an election year and the issuance of national registration cards must be more than doubled so that as we start registering as voters, the registration exercise will go on smoothly.

I also wish to ask the Government, as we go, to consider this year - because the roads have not been done and the bridges have been washed away. Most of the rivers are flooded and people will have a problem of movement. For this year alone, they can consider mobile voters’ registration as a special case, and trial case for that matter.

Sir, for more than two months now, Chipata has had no television and radio reception. The hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services assured us that he was going to look into this problem. Should we wait until somebody mentions it here, in Parliament, for the hon. Minister to go and check whether there is no television and radio reception? We would also want to watch television in Chipata. I do not know when the hon. Minister was last there. We would like you to come now. I am sure that when you come, we will start watching television.

Mr Speaker, there are a number of rural health centres that were built under the funding of the World Bank. One of them is Mwase Mpangwe Rural Health Centre and some of the equipment was delivered in 1997 when the clinic was completed. To date, it has not been opened. We have just been hearing stories about some small technical problems. We should be serious. Let us not just talk about these things. If you want me to come to your office, I will come. It is not the only clinic that has not been opened.

Mr Speaker, as I wind up, I wish to thank the Zambian people for being very democratic. There have been incidents when people have tried to derail democracy in this country, but the people of Zambia have stood up for it. I hope that this spirit continues. I hope that as we go back home, we will not have overzealous hon. Ministers, who will try to deal with people like me who debate for the interest of the people. I have heard some hon. Ministers telling me that ...

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member must understand and appreciate the fact that Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia protects all Members of this House to speak freely. If the hon. Member for Lumezi has been threatened by any hon. Minister, I would like to know who that hon. Minister is so that I may apply the full weight of the law in relation to that particular hon. Minister, so that hon. Members here may speak freely.

May the hon. Member continue but, I believe, you have made your point. Could you wind up so that we may make progress.

Major Kamanga: Thank you for the guidance. I am aware that I have the freedom of speech here. At an appropriate time, I will do so.

Mr Speaker, I wish once again to thank the people of Zambia and encourage them to promote democracy through peaceful means and that no democracy through the back door should be allowed into this country again.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Education (Brigadier-General Miyanda): Thank you, Mr Speaker, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer, hammer!

Brigadier-General Miyanda: I am just debating. There is no hammering.

Sir, thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this Motion. Before I speak on the Motion, I just want to assure Hon. Sibetta about his concerns that, I am not under any pressure at all. It is almost impossible to pressurise me.

Laughter.

Brigadier-General Miyanda: Mr Speaker, the Motion is very simple and straightforward. That is why I stood up to support his honour the Vice-President for moving it. We are merely being asked to agree that we change our rules so that we can conclude everything today and adjourn sine die. So I support his honour the Vice-President's Motion.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Inshimbi ni nshimbi.

Laughter.

Brigadier-General Miyanda: One of the reasons why I support this is that, I am very concerned about debates in the House and I say this without any malice. We are here to debate. That is the primary purpose of this House. But without discussing other issues, I want to say that there are immediate surrounding circumstances which are making it difficult for the Chair and all of us. That is why we should adjourn so that when we adjourn, we can go and cool off ...

Laughter.

Brigadier-General Miyanda: ... and so that we let the dust settle when we are in the Chamber. And some of us also who have the tendency to be afraid can lean how to manage fear. So we stop fearing the unknown. 

Laughter.

Brigadier-General Miyanda: In this place, we debate so that we can legislate. Sir, with due respect, I would like the spirit of the past, where we can tolerate people to speak. We in the Front Bench and other members must be patient and listen because when people speak, there is sometimes usefulness in what they are saying. At times, there is nothing. But we still have to listen to them because that is why we are in Parliament, as they say in French, Parley, which means to speak. That is why we are here. 

So it is necessary to adjourn hon. Members. We should not prolong this debate. If we cool off, perhaps when we come back, the atmosphere will be such that we will be able to debate as we are expected. And I am grateful that Mr Speaker reminded us of one of our privileges. I had actually intended to refer to it. It is very important. I will do so now.

I will refer to the National Assembly Powers and Privileges, Cap. 12 which Mr Speaker referred to. I will quote it seriously. Mr Speaker, Cap. 12, Section 3 says and, I quote:

    'There shall be freedom of speech and debate in the Assembly. Such freedom of speech and debate shall not be liable to be questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly.'

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Brigadier-General Miyanda: What I am getting at is that Parliament is considered to be so vital that we should debate or speak freely. In fact, it is even made certain that no one can question us about what we say in this House. You cannot be sued for speaking here unless you break certain protocols or regulations. 

Now my concern is that I want to benefit from every hon. Member who speaks. You may pay attention to what they are saying and what their complaints against the Government and the ministries are so that we can respond. Therefore, I thank the Chair for announcing today the formation of a committee to look at the reforms. We must study and contribute to this so that we can improve the performance of our Parliament. Unless we are free, and not fearful, we will not do a service to the nation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Brigadier-General Miyanda: As regards this freedom of speech and debate, it is a pity I did not know that I will debate this way. I have had occasion in the past to look at Erskine May, which is one of the traditional documents or books or guidance that all parliaments follow ...

Miss Kalenga: An authority.

Brigadier-General Miyanda: ... or an authority on what I am saying. In a nutshell, it simply means that we can debate in this House on any subject under the earth without let or hindrance. So I look forward to adjourning now so that when we come back, we would have cooled off and we will not be afraid of our shadows but we will have regard for performing duties to improve the well being of our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am indebted to the hon. Members for the contributions. I think you will agree with me that most of the contributions were covered during the actual debate on the budget. So I will not go through individual hon. Members' contribution. 

But, Sir, I thank you also for guiding the House. And I also want to thank Brigadier-General Miyanda for his contribution right now and assure hon. Members particularly from the Opposition and indeed from the back-bench and all of us here that, we are all free to make contributions. I think the Chair has been very careful to ensure that he has spread contributions throughout the House, as widely as possible. It is my duty as Leader of the House to also ensure that hon. Members contribute. They should not have unnecessary fears or oppression in them.

So once again, I want to assure you that you are free to contribute. If at all, there are any areas of concern or any pressures being brought to you unduly, you are free to either see me or Mr Speaker and I think that we will be able to resolve the matter on your behalf.

Secondly, I want to comment very briefly on what the hon. Member for Chipata said about visits by hon. Ministers. In fact, perhaps you might not know that there is already a standing practice that when an hon. Minister is going to visit, he tells not only the Provincial Minister but also other officials that are in that constituency where he is going. So I think that should not unnecessarily worry you because in any case most of the hon. Ministers when they come, they come to help. So I think that you should liaise with them and you will find that they will be of some help. Otherwise, Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Members for their contributions and I think that their points have been registered.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

BILLS

FIRST READING

The following bill was read the first time:

The Supplementary Appropriation (1998) Bill, 2001

Second Reading today.

THIRD READING

The Following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Electoral (Amendment) Bill, 2001

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

Vote 94/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 94/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Vote 94/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 95/09 - (Office of the President - Eastern Province -Building Department - K9,963,758,858)

Mr T. J. C. Phiri (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, may I have clarification from the hon. Minister of Eastern Province whether this K3 billion covers feeder roads in all nineteen provinces in the Eastern Provinces.

The Deputy Chairman: Do you have nineteen provinces in Eastern Province?

Mr T. J. C. Phiri: Nineteen constituencies. Mr Chairman, in sub- head 5, item 02, sub-item 001 - National Feeder Roads Programme - K3 billion, may I know whether it covers feeder roads in all constituencies in the province.

The Deputy Minister of Eastern Province (Mr Mumba): Mr Chairman, the answer is yes.

Thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 95/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 96/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/52 - (Office of the President - Luapula Province - District Administration Office - K8,213,297,990).

Mr Nkabika: (Kapiri Mposhi): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 2, item 03 - Purchase of Services - K273,816,225, can the hon. Minister tell the House which services will be purchased.

The Deputy Minister of Luapula Province (Mr Chama): Mr Chairman, the provision is for the purchase of road, rail and air fares, rental charges for houses, postal charges, telephones, heating and lighting, water charges, official entertainment, expenses on boards and committees, bank charges, revolving fund, maintenance of furniture, Labour Day awards and maintenance of vehicles.

I thank you, Mr Chairman, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 96/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 97/08 - (Office of the President - North-Western Province - Roads Department - K3,569,995,325).

Mr Nkabika: Mr Chairman, on sub-head 5, item 02, sub-item 001 - National Feeder Roads Programme - K 3,000,000,000, can the hon. Minister tell the House which feeder roads are these which will benefit from this allocation.

The Deputy Minister of North Western Province (Mr Kambilumbilu): Mr Chairman, the provision is required to meet the expenditure on the National Feeder Roads Programme.

Thank you, Sir. 

Vote 97/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 97/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/43 - (Office of the President - Southern Province - Child Affairs- K40,760,474)

Mr Nkabika: Mr Chairman, may I seek clarification on sub-item 5 - Capital Expenditure, item 01 - Movable Assets - K6,560,487.

The Deputy Minister of Southern Province (Mr Chiimbwe): Mr Chairman, this is a provision of requirements required to meet the payment of the household loans, circulation and advice to civil servants and classified employees new decentralised accounting system.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Vote 98/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 99/01 - (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure - K1,316,848,000,000)

Mr Sichinga (Isoka East): Thank you, Mr Chairman, Sir, I was concerned that you were going to pass this without debate. 

Sir, I want to contribute on this issue of the Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure for the benefit of this House. I did some calculations and this figure contained in this particular Vote represents 26.4 per cent of the entire Budget. On. Members, it is important that we debate this in a reasonable and exhaustive manner.

Mr Chairman, it is important to deal with this Vote in the light of the history of what has taken place. This, Mr Chairman, is a Vote in which the famous Presidential Fund is contained in sub-head 7, item 04 - Constitutional Posts - K2,900,000,000. It has a figure which is just under K3 billion. The bulk of this is covering the internal and external debt servicing. 

But also there is a famous figure here of K105,000,000,000 in item 05 - referred to as ‘Other’. Until you come to the individual figures, where we ask for the details or a breakdown, you do not know exactly what is contained in there. But past information tells us that, in fact, this is where the Presidential Fund is hidden. I want to make reference, Mr Chairman, to (v) which is talking about Budget Totals by Subsidiary Items ...

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

The Deputy Chairman: Before I call upon the hon. Member for Isoka East (Mr Sichinga) I would like to advise the House that this is normally a very restrictive Vote. We may not spend a lot of time on it. Suffice to say that if the point that you wanted to make has been made by the previous speaker, we should go by that contribution instead of repeating ourselves over and over.

There is very little we can say on this Vote, we cannot wonder around in freedom.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I was making a point that the issue of the Presidential Fund has been an issue I have raised in this House several times and I am aware that subsequent to previous years’ appropriations, it has become clear that contained in the Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure were provisions for the Presidential Fund. I am also concerned that there is a possibility that this item, as I indicated earlier, may be concealed. I, therefore, made reference to page No. 14 which is Cabinet Office - Office of the President - Headquarters and I observed from that as well as from XV in which the Presidential Fund under item No. 043 is shown as K12 billion. It appears that it is under one of the items. I am assuming that this is appearing in item No. 2  Recurrent Departmental Charges, sub-item 03 - purchase of services which is shown as K77,993,914,528. 

Mr Chairman, the point I wish to make is that, this kind of fund has been ‘misused’ in the past because it has been used in some constituencies and not in others. We have asked for the ground rules on how this fund should be utilised but up to now we do not have these ground rules and I am concerned that where it is left entirely on discretion, it becomes difficult ...

Dr Kalumba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr L L Phiri: Wait for your chance.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairman, I am concerned that the hon. Member is using an item which falls under a very different Head of Cabinet Office and we are not debating Cabinet. Is he in order to be debating Presidential Fund which is not included in this.

Interruptions.

The Deputy Chairman: The hon. Member for Isoka East is advised by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development that the fund he is referring to does not appear under this Vote. Perhaps, he may wish to pick it from there and the hon. Minister will be able to explain that. Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, before I came to this, I made reference to the fact that in past years, the Presidential Fund had appeared under Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure. That is what I said and I am saying that there has been a switch. There is a possibility that there has been a switch, that was my preamble. Therefore, for the hon. Minister to restrict me when he has an opportunity to come and respond is incorrect. He should come and point out where the K12 billion is appearing and I am saying this is the Budget that we have and we can make reference to this Budget because we are still debating it. So, Sir, I do not see how I should be restricted.

In any case, Sir, the hon. Minister has an opportunity to come and respond and explain to us how this is done. I am concerned, Sir, that items pertaining to Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure should be so. In other words, they should really be relating to Constitutional and Statutory issues. I made the point that Constitutional posts only have a figure of K3 billion in this provision, out of a total of K1,316,000,000,000. That is the point I am making and so I hope that the hon. Minister will be kind enough to explain to us where this item is appearing.

But having said so, Sir, I want to say that the so-called donations, and I am saying so-called because you cannot donate public funds. Public funds are public funds, they can only be allocated. There is no question of anybody donating, whether he be President or otherwise, you can never donate public funds. The funds should just be allocated and that is the point I am driving at. There should be the same considerations as other appropriations that we have considered in this Budget. I am concerned because of the manner in which this has been handled in the past and as I said, there are no ground rules that we are supposed to observe.

So, Sir, I am concerned and I feel that the hon. Minister should clarify this particular issue for us. Now, why am I concerned about this ...

Mr Mandandi: Why same point.

Interruptions.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, I trust that we only have one Chairman in this House. I hope we do not have another hon. Minister who is a Chairman.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Could hon. Members whether they are back-benchers or hon. Ministers, please, give the contributor on the Floor the opportunity to make his point. After they have made the point, both the Middle and the Front Benches will be able to give the answers that are being sought in that debate. I think it is only procedural that we give him a chance instead of trying to hush him. Let him speak and then we will be able to follow exactly what it is that he wants explained by the hon. Minister.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: I thank you, Sir, for your protection and I trust that the hon. Ministers who want to say something have an opportunity to do so. I do not have a problem with that.

Mr Chairman, it is important that when we report, these issues are reported accurately because they help us to have an understanding of the pattern of expenditures. Let me state why I am concerned. If a ‘donation’ is given to a Church, a Church puts up a building in form of a school, whose asset is it? By Financial Regulations, which this House has passed, that particular asset belongs to the State and it ought to be accounted for in the fixed assets register of the State.

Mr Chairman, if you give to another recipient a mini bus because they are running a football club, that particular asset belongs to the State and as far as I am concerned. Drawing from experience as Chairman of Public Accounts, I am aware that these assets do not get reflected as such and, therefore, it becomes difficult because you are discriminating between one group of citizens against another. That is what is wrong with the system of doing things this way.

Mr Sibetta: It is fraud.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, if we are to respect our own laws and financial accountability and transparency, it is important that items should be reflected in appropriate places with due regard to Financial Regulations which the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development is charged to oversee on our behalf and it is also the duty of the Committees of this House to ensure that they comply with those particular regulations.

Mr Chairman, this is why we have had many diffractions, misappropriations and misapplications which the Committee on Public Accounts have reported to this House. Therefore, Sir, we are trying to help our colleagues in the Front Bench to ensure that there is proper accountability and that items are not shown as air tickets when in fact, fixed assets are being purchased. So, I hope that the hon. Minister will clarify to us in summing up that this, in fact, is not the case.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mponda (Chilubi): Mr Chairman, I have a lot of difficulties in understanding this contingency which has been put here. In the past, this contingency was put under the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development in the Budget Office. We complained and it disappeared. Again, it has reappeared under Constitution and Statutory Expenditure.

I am not an expert on budgeting but I would have thought that those people who draw the budget should take into account likely changes. For example, when they prepare salaries for a particular year, they should know that there may be negotiations for increase of salaries, etc. So, they should put a contingency in salaries so that it is catered for. I have never seen a contingency cost centre by itself. So, I fail to understand this one. It may be that they are hiding something. What is it?

Mr Chairman, the ministry has been there for the last thirty-five years. They know exactly what the fluctuations are in a particular cost centre. If I take an example of salaries and open any page in this Yellow Book, take for example Purchases of Goods, you should know that petrol is likely to increase at such a rate. So, you take into account that one. There is no need for this contingency unless they are hiding something which they do not want us to know. 

Mr Chairman, already, the Minister of Finance and Economic Development has presented a Supplementary Appropriation (1998) Bill. So, if something beyond the control of the ministry happens, they must come to this House, like they have done for the Excess Expenditure (1998) Bill, without putting this contingency. 

Mr Chairman, I have a lot of difficulties in supporting that kind of thing.

With these few remarks, Sir, I thank you.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Chairman, as you have already guided this House that you do not want us to repeat what other hon. Members of Parliament have already said. I think in Zambia, it is on record that Parliament is the only forum on which the truth should be told. We have gone from ministry to ministry and we have been told what money will be used. Now, I am at pains to support this kind of a Vote, which the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development has brought before this august House. What we want is the hon. Minister to do us a favour by telling us exactly where that Presidential Fund is in this Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure.

Mr Chairman, I have read the Yellow Book, why should that amount be hidden from hon. Members of Parliament? We are the people who are answerable to the public because we are elected to come and represent them. Whatever we do here is what people out there will rely on. The hon. Minister is hiding the figure which is not serving any purpose and is not in the interests of the people of Zambia now, apart from targeting innocent leaders’ necks. We would want to be told by the hon. Minister how much this money is and where it is appearing. Under Cabinet Office, there was no figure and it does not appear.

Now, we just see figures on Page 542, sub-head 07, item 05 - Other - K105,000,000,000. This is very unfair because according to the records of Zambia, this fund is not equitably distributed. I have not even benefited. It is not audited so that the public is aware of how it is being used but innocent people here, are going to approve it now and this will be used against them.

Mr Chairman, it is very unfair. We want the learned colleague, who has leadership qualities, to be very fair to this Parliament. Otherwise, we are not going to be worth the title hon. Members of Parliament if we are not told how much it is and where it is. This is what we want to hear because is not appearing anywhere.

So, as a true and serious debater, under your leadership, Mr Chairman, I do not want to be part and parcel of the money which will be used to cut other people’s heads, here. It is not equitably funded and is used without ...

Mr Chulumanda: On a point of order, Sir

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chulumanda: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali in order to insinuate that money can be used to cut somebody’s throat? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: In that point of order by the hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana Constituency, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali is being cautioned not to use the phrase that he used in a literal sense. Unless he was using it in a figurative manner but if he was using it literally, that will be out of order because you do not use money to cut somebody’s throat.

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: Will he, please, clarify whether he was using it figuratively or literally, before I can rule him out of order or allow him to continue.

Will he continue, please.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, I think I will not dwell on what my fellow young hon. Member is saying. I was referring to figures which are not ...

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Did the hon. Member use it figuratively or literally?

Laughter!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, figuratively.

Laughter.

Hon. Member: Bamwebakofye!

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, what I was trying to say is that if we are not being told the truth about this figure, I would come up with allegations that this is the money which is used for parading Chiefs and sponsoring the Third Term debate, which we not allowed to debate here and which I will not dwell on ...

The Deputy Chairman: Order! The House is not sponsoring debate on the Third Term. It has been made clear several times that we do not want to entertain the Third Term debate here. As we adjourn, in the course of today, you can discuss that outside but not in the House.

Will you, please, continue and be more relevant.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, what we want to hear from the hon. Minister is what I have already mentioned. We  are debating like this, Sir, because we are at pains, especially that we are made to kneel for this money when, in fact, it is supposed to benefit every Zambian here without looking at the party one belongs to. We have applied for this money but to no avail. Mr Chairman, what we want before we approve this Budget, is to know how much it is and where it is hidden in this Yellow Book.

So, Mr Chairman, because of what is happening now in Zambia, we want to make sure that corruption is not used under this figure and other people are not victimised using this money.

So, Mr Chairman, as a serious debater and a disappointed man, I would like the hon. Minister to clarify on this issue. Otherwise, I plead with hon. Members of Parliament who want to be responsible not to support it. We can only support it when we are told exactly how much it is and where it is.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikasote (Mpulungu): Thank you for allowing me to debate on this important Vote.

First of all, I will say that I stand here to support the Vote, but I would like to make a very radical proposal to this august House. I have looked carefully at our Constitution and I have found it lacking in terms of the way we utilise resources.

Mr Chairman, our Constitution was mooted out after independence when we had about £300 billion in reserves. If you look at it, basically, it is politically driven. Time has come, Mr Chairman, to look at the Constitution and amend it, review it and look critically in the way we utilise resources.

Mr Chairman, my focus, basically, will be to ask the Government that in the next five years, we should have a Constitutional review which should cater, in the budget, for the way we allocate resources, utilise resources and the way we deal with excess expenditure. Hon. Members discuss excess expenditure of K100 billion and it is taken as a joke. It is not a joke. The country is being run by the donors. You will find out that some people are crying out that we should start giving handouts. Let us not start doing things which are awkward. I heard one of the hon. Members saying that we should be able to give handouts and have socialist policies. We know pretty well that our budget is mostly and largely funded by the donors. We are begging and if we are begging, it means that we are being funded by other people’s taxpayers’ money.

So, Mr Chairman, time has come for us to review the Constitution to take this into consideration so that we bring discipline.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hanjika! {mospagebreak}

Mr Sikasote: We have reached a stage whereby hon. Members here, as leaders, should not live beyond their means. We should be able to live within our means.

Mr Matutu: Those who are building big houses.

Mr Sikasote: Mr Chairman, will you not find that it is a bit annoying to the hon. Members that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development can bring the Bill, 1998 Excess Expenditure now. This is rubber stamping which we are doing. What we should have is basically resource allocation, expenditure and we should know how to deal with disasters. When there is a disaster like we have had heavy rains, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development should come to this House to tell us that the damage that has been done has been cartered for. This House should be able to debate and approve a separate budget than waking up and finding an excess budget of K200 billion. We do not want to approve our inefficiency.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, my friend, the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development is very aware that the whole budget process and format requires serious review.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Last year, a Parliamentary Committee tabled a report which was adopted. Yet, not a single recommendation has been implemented. For example, other means, as has been said in the House before, have been ignored. The hon. Minister has chosen to ignore a Parliamentary Committee report. The ministry is supposed to table a Treasury Minute in response to the Report on the Committee of Estimates within sixty days of tabling. To date, we have not seen the Minute. By choosing to ignore and looking away, the hon. Minister is not going to solve the problem.

I have said it before in this House that the report consisted of the majority MMD hon. Members. That process requires radical change. What we see as the people of public accounts or budget is inadequacy. It does not tell us what the state of our financial affairs is. A good example is the internal debt. The hon. Minister has allocated K44 billion for the local debt but he does not tell us what the total local debt is in the country. If you do not give information on one side, we cannot move on as a country. Basic accounting is debt and credit. We need the figures on both columns. The best way to describe this process is a word which is unparliamentary and, so, I cannot use it.

So, I would really like to appeal to the hon. Minister and I am very happy to hear today that the hon. Mr Speaker has appointed the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development as a member of the Reform and Modernisation Committee on Parliamentary Reforms. So, I do hope that he will take a lead in that. If we do not get adequate information on our budget, we will never know where we are and where we are going. The information given to us is inadequate. It does not tell us where we have come from, where we are going or where we are today. If the hon. Minister wants to continue managing our finances in that way, we are not going to progress. I would like to receive assurances from you that we will see radical changes in the way the budgets are presented. There is no use of hiding away from these problems.

Thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Finance and Economic Development (Dr Kalumba): Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. Members of the House who have debated. I have to, perhaps, raise the tone of my voice because there is some degree of disappointment in some of the comments that some hon. Members have made in respect to the Budget. But, I understand the frustration, except I would advise that some hon. Members like Hon. Phiri should spare some time to read the Yellow Book and follow the discussions Vote by Vote. I think the Chair takes us line by line throughout this Yellow Book. I am surprised that the hon. Member for Chipangali did not know that under Cabinet Office - sub head 2, item 03 - Purchase of Services - was K12 billion. I wish he had looked at this closely. We have no need to hide anything, Hon. Phiri. We are an accountable Government and, as a ministry, we work so hard to uphold this principle under our Government.

All I can say to Hon. Sichinga is that I take your counsel to continue improving on our work. I have no quarrel with your call for improvements in the budget process. That is why the Chair has established as the reform process. There are reforms in the budget issues which as Hon. Patel said, cannot go ahead of the reform of Parliament itself. In fact, it is an item on the Standing Orders Sub Committee which, once started, will move according to the House. But, as it is now, we have to stay within the existing rules and regulations. So if you want us to run before we can walk, I am afraid we will not be able to do that.

With respect to the information, I am disappointed that Hon. Patel was unable to disclose the fact that I sent information to him upon his request regarding the activities based on budgeting. He does not acknowledge the fact that we have done work to improve the state of our information in our budget. It could have been kind, Hon. Patel, if you had stated that you had information to that effect. In fact, we are moving as a ministry to reform the budget process. I think we should pay credit where it is due.

With respect Hon. Sikasote, we will come back to the Supplementary Bill. But let me just say that I made a commitment to this House that I will try and up date all our national accounts position to keep them up to date starting with 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998. I am now completing that. So it is in the spirit of up dating these records, making sure that our national accounts are up to date, that we are bringing the Bill later before the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 99/01 - (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure - K5,015,050,011,500).

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, can the hon. Minister explain clearly to this House because we cannot find in this complementary and grading of the so-called constitutional posts, which are shown under sub-head 7, item 04 - Constitutional Posts - K2,900,000,000, for which we gave last year another estimated excess of K1 billion. This year we are estimating K2,900,000,000 and we cannot find these posts. If it is the Chief Justice and others, they have just been given increments. Which are these posts.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Zimba: You sit down.

Mr Sibetta: You are not the Chair. I cannot sit down.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Sibetta: I cannot sit down because you are not the Chair.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Sibetta: You are not the Chair. I cannot sit down.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairman: Order! I appreciate the fact Hon. Sibetta did not get a chance to debate. But that is not to say we can open debate on this other than just ask for points of clarification which you ably did and there was no need for further discussion.

Mr Sibetta: You cannot order me. It is only the Chair which can do that. You cannot!

Interruptions.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Two wrongs do not make a right.

Dr. Kalumba: The categories under this constitutional posts are known to the hon. Member. As an example take the Ministry of Legal Affairs, we have a number of constitutional posts and many other ministries have a number of constitutional posts. It is not a new creation at all.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr T. J. C. Phiri: Mr Chairman, on sub-head 7, item 05 - Other - K105,000,000,000 and on item 06 - Contingency - K40,000,000,000, is the hon. Minister able to give us a breakdown?

Dr. Kalumba: Mr Chairman, on item 05 - Other - K105,000,000,000, it refers to provisions that are required to the wage adjustments in the Public Service. On item 06 - Contingency - K40,000,000,000, it refers to events that are unforeseen. That is why it is called contingency.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Estimates of Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) for the year 1st January, 2001 to 31st December, 2001 were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments.

Report adopted  and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of Supply.

BILLS

FIRST READING

The following Bill was read the first time:

The Appropriation Bill, 2001

Second Reading today.

SECOND READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2001

The Minister of Finance and Economic Development (Dr Kalumba): Mr Speaker: ...

Mr Sibetta: The Bill has just been circulated now.

Dr Kalumba: ... the Bill now before the House marks the end of the Budget Session which started on Tuesday, 3rd January, 2001, following the announcement of the Budget itself on Friday, 26th January, 2001. 

Sir, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all the hon. Members for the invaluable contributions made during the debate as well as those that were made at the Sessional Committee level. We are being analysed to ensure that there is successful implementation where possible. Let me also register my great appreciation at the manner in which the leader of the House, His Honour the Vice-President, tirelessly gave the memoranda of the possible business to be covered each week. My commendations are also extended to you, Sir, the Deputy Speaker, the Chairman of the Committees and the Deputy Chairman of the Committees for very ably guiding the proceedings of the House.

The support services rendered by the Clerk of the National Assembly and his entire staff, both here at Parliament Buildings and at the National Assembly Motel, are greatly appreciated.

On the credit side, allow me, Sir, to firmly extend the hand of welcome to all the hon. Members who have just joined us. Most, if not all of them, should by now have acclimatised themselves and are ready to make meaningful contributions in their own way for the prosperity of mother Zambia.

To the departed politicians, I wish to extend my sympathies and condolences to their families and wish to commit them to the Almighty God to give them strength and guidance of their just changes.

Mr Speaker, as we prepare ourselves to go and join our constituencies, we should not lose sight of the fact that we are the people’s representatives, through and through, and, therefore, we should be with them to articulate Government policy. Since we are also councillors in our respective constituencies, we should be actively involved in the council meetings so as to help them get out of their persistent financial problems and be able to stand on their own.

Sir, it is now my pleasure to commend the Bill to the House and accordingly, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I have just learnt that the Bill has just been circulated now. However, it is the understanding of the Chair that the figures therein are not different from the figures you have just approved in the Estimates Book.

Mr Kapangalwendo (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, I thank you, for giving me this opportunity to support the Appropriation Bill.

As usual, Sir, I want to thank the MMD Government for the projects they have initiated ever since they came into power. It is very important that we should give credit where it is due.

The Government has endeavoured to upgrade all the roads throughout the country and have repaired some bridges throughout the country. The only problem, Sir, which I want to mention, ...

Interruptions.

Mr Kapangalwendo: ... after going through this Bill, is that we have a number of projects which have been started and, therefore, we want to know ...

The Vice-President: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Member, but really the issue of grading roads and other matters contained in the Budget have been fully exhausted. Now, we should confine ourselves to this Bill which the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development has brought to the House. Is he in order, Sir, to re-open debate on the grading of the roads?

Mr Speaker: Order! His Honour the Vice-President is raising a pertinent point of order from which the hon. Member for Chinsali ought to benefit. If he has no other points, may he give way to the other hon. Colleagues to raise new points. Do you have any new points to raise, hon. Member for Chinsali?

Mr Kapangalwendo: Yes, Sir, thank you for your guidance and protection. Sir, I would like to say that this country has experienced torrential rains and most bridges and roads have been washed away. I would like to refer specifically to roads ...

Mr L. L. Phiri: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Chinsali in order to be meandering instead of indicating that he is selling himself to be considered, in the last few days, if there are any ministerial posts coming? Is he in order to be delaying the House instead of debating the Bill before this august House, Sir? I seek your serious ruling.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: I did advise the House earlier on that this is going to be a special day. The Order Paper looks very short but, in fact, it is very long and this is what is happening right now.

The hon. Member for Chinsali should benefit from the wisdom that has been expounded here ...

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: ... by the hon. Member for Chipangali. What the hon. Member has to do is to state whether he is supporting the Bill or not, as simple as that. May you support or reject the Bill.

Mr Kapangalwendo: Sir, I totally support the Bill.

Laughter.

Mr Kapangalwendo: I would like to say that when this money is released from the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, through provincial headquarters, in particular, Provincial Accounting Units should also release this money as quickly as possible so that we complete the white elephant projects that we have started.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sichinga (Isoka East): Mr Speaker, your recent statement from which we started debating this issue is my deepest source of concern regarding the manner in which we are dealing with the Appropriation Bill and I will explain why I am rather grieved by the manner of doing things like this in this House.

Mr Speaker, we have hardly had the opportunity of comparing what is contained in the Appropriation Bill with what is contained in here because it was being distributed as the Motion was being moved on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sichinga: Now, we have spent a good amount of time since the last week of January and we said a lot of things in this House where we, as hon. Members of the House, both from Government and Oppositions sides, feel that resources of the country must go to, in particular, agriculture and roads. There has been no single change, Sir, between what is in the Yellow Book and what is in this Bill. It is that issue that causes this House basically to endorse issues which come back to bite us.

I want to make reference to another item which is on the Floor of the House that, since the last five years, every year, there has been Supplementary Expenditure over and above what is approved by this House. Without exception, every year has also seen that the appropriations that are being given in this Appropriation Bill are not always respected. Many times, they are either exceeded or underfunded. The effectiveness of this document and the mission of this Budget will not be accomplished unless we can meet the requirements that are being stated in here. My concern, Sir, arises from two or three issues. Number one, we do not have, as at now, supplementary appropriation bills for the year 1999 and 2000, yet there has been excess expenditure. There are no bills. Only today we have received the Supplementary Appropriation Bill for 1998. This now falls outside the provisions of the Constitution, as we will be debating on that particular issue. Article No. 117, sub-section 4 is very clear on the matter of how the hon. Minister should present it.

Next, Mr Speaker, is the issue of fifty-three per cent of the funding of this Budget which is supposed to come from the donors. As we stand at the moment, there is no agreement with the World Bank and IMF. Already, we are almost three months into this year’s Budget. Sir, we really have to make a change in the manner in which the budgets are presented. I notice that the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development is shaking his head. I am trying to help you, hon. Minister, because without exception, every year all the Public Accounts Committees have reflected these same issues. So, sometimes, I wonder about the value of what this Appropriation Bill contains when it is never even respected. I want to say to you that, sometimes, the message that messengers bring is unpleasant, yet it is necessary for us to appreciate it. I am concerned that we take lightly important things that this House should be concerned about. So, we spend so much time and nothing has changed despite what the hon. Members have asked the hon. Minister to make adjustments on.

Little wonder that after ten years of MMD management, we are still talking about eighty-five per cent of people living in poverty and sixty-five per cent in abject poverty. What is the purpose of a Budget that does not meet our people’s expectations? What will this achieve for us? What are you going to tell your electorate when you go, what are you going to say to them? Mr Speaker, I have great difficulties in supporting this kind of system that goes in and out. I will boldly say in this House that I will not support this Budget because it is not going to be respected even if this House approves it. It is high time we started taking seriously matters that concern the welfare of our people.

Mr Speaker, I have great difficulty in supporting this and I will not support it at all.

I thank you. 

Mr Mushala (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, today, I stand to support this Bill. We have had a long time discussing the Budget. I think it is high time that we wound up the debate. I would only like the hon. Minister to make it clear that in the first paragraph the amount should read K5,015,050,011,500. Mr Speaker, in short, I support the Bill and I think we are tired.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Chipungu (Rufunsa): Mr Speaker, I rise on one issue. We have just gone through the Budget and the Appropriation Bill cannot come earlier or later than now. This is the right time to have it.

Having said that, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development whether this year we are going to have a mid-term Budget review, for several reasons. One, we have an unusually high donor input and we are not clear, three months down in the year, whether, indeed, we are going to meet this Budget through that donor support. This is why I am suggesting that we have a mid-term review and also take into account the fact that this is a peculiar year, in which the House may not sit in December to approve the famous supplementary budget, Mr Speaker. So, it is imperative, given the parameters, that we have a mid-term review.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikasote (Mpulungu): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to debate on this important Bill. Let me start by congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development for the able leadership he has provided during the debates and final approval of this Budget. Also, Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the hon. Member for Lufwanyama, Mr Mulongoti, though he is not here, on being elected Chairman of the Energy, Environment and Parliamentary Committee.

I would like to assure the hon. Members who are in the Front and Middle Benches that, there is nothing wrong in coming back in the back bench. In fact, that is where most people start from and there is a lot of free debate here, as you have basically experienced by Hon. Mulongoti. When he was in the Middle Bench, he was being suffocated, but we are hearing him out now.

Mr Speaker, coming to this Bill, time has come when this House should respect the Budget. When you have a budget which has a hundred per cent excess expenditure or ten per cent spent on the budget, it is a useless budget. A serious budget should have an over-shoot of about thirty per cent in the current circumstances or spending eighty per cent of the budgeted amount. Immediately we start spending a hundred per cent excess, then we are distorting the budget. If we are under spending, if we budgeted for K100 million and spent K10 million, then, the budget is useless.

So, Mr Speaker, I will urge the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development that in these prevailing circumstances, where resources are tight, we would not like to see a situation where we have excess expenditures. We would like to see minimal expenditures. I am talking about a hundred per cent and two hundred per cent excess expenditure.

Mr Speaker, this is a very unique year and as such, we would like the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to also operate in a unique way. It is in this regard, Mr Speaker, that I am suggesting to the hon. Minister that, he should go ahead and sign a short-term loan to firstly, kick start the capital expenditure in this Budget. We do not want a situation whereby money will be released when Parliament has been dissolved. 

Secondly, Sir, on the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, we are all happy that they have these road rehabilitation units, which have been distributed by the Zambia National Service throughout the provinces. We would like the hon. Minister to release funds right now, through that short-term loan, for fuel and oil so that we start the road rehabilitation immediately the rains stop.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, on this short-term loan, we are all extremely tired discussing inputs. Immediately the House adjourns, we would like the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to liaise with the hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. Let them find a way to start funding the inputs by May.

Hon. Members: Now.

Mr Sikasote: Yes, now. There is no way.

Laughter.

Mr Sikasote: You see, Mr Speaker, sometimes, you want to agree with the Opposition, though they are heavy handed, but you look at it.

The hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development has just rushed in an Appropriation Bill. But, Sir, when it comes to serious issues like fertiliser, we drag our feet. So, I would like him to organise funds now.

Hon. Members: Hears, hear!

Mr Sikasote: We should start the distribution of fertiliser in May. Even Hon. Chikamba, Mr Speaker, who, when he was in the back-bench was an advocate for early inputs, is also tired.

Mr Chikamba: Yes!

Laughter.

Mr Sikasote: Mr Speaker, these are serious issues which basically needs to be attended to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr T. J. C. Phiri (Milanzi): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me a chance to contribute on this Bill on the Floor. I support the Bill and in supporting the Bill, I would like to mention something that perhaps, the hon. Minister will clarify when he stands up.

Mr Speaker, in the recent past, cash budget management has been a problem. I am not quite sure whether the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development has by now come up with a proper way of managing the cash budget. As at the moment, it is not properly managed. 

Mr Speaker, in your Committee on Estimates an expert on finance, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) representative, came to give evidence and it is in this report. He clearly stated ...

Hon. Members: Which report?

Mr T. J. C. Phiri: ... in the Committee on Estimates which was presented to Parliament in December, Mr Speaker, on page ninety-four, and perhaps I should read since it is not long  and I quote

‘With regard to cash management, the Resident Representative informed your Committee that, improving budget implementation critically depended on the appropriate capacity to anticipate and plan for financial development. Financial planning allowed the use of cash and credit to be guided by budgetary developments, to smooth out large, temporary departures between inflows and outflows and for the reduction of unnecessary borrowing and associated costs. He stated that the effect with cash management should ideally:

(a)    recognise the time, value and opportunity cost of cash;

(b)    enable expenditure planning for ministries;

(c)    anticipate development and minimise adverse effects;

(d)    respond to cash needs of spending ministries; and

(e)    deal comprehensively with inflows of cash resources and the liquidation of both short and long-term cash liabilities. 

He went to on to say that the present cash budge system which was first introduced as an expenditure control measure in 1993, had become in practice a cash rationing system rather than a cash management system.

Now, this clearly shows that the cash budget is a very good system and it is not a new thing. We only started it in 1993 but elsewhere, it started some time ago. It is a means of controlling the inflow and the outflow of cash. Not cash rationing as is the case now. What is happening now, is that the ministry receives some money from Zambia Revenue Authority and begin sharing proportionally to ministries, thereby, hampering the work of various ministries, who have to wait until the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development receives money from Zambia Revenue Authority. By that time, teachers will have not received their salaries including many civil servants. Whereas, if there was proper cash budget management, they should have foreseen this situation and release funds in time so that projects can take place.

Secondly, Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development whether it is not feasible for other important ministries, for example, Ministries of Health, Education and other critical ministries, to release funds two or three months in advance so that there is no hardship on buying medicine or on acquiring certain educational equipment, or even paying teachers’ salaries.

With these remarks, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Patel (Lusaka-Central): Mr Speaker, as you may be aware, we have just received this Bill. So I was just going through it as quickly as possible. Sir, obviously we have talked about this for many weeks and not even a comma or full stop has been changed.

I was looking at this Bill, under Vote 08/04 in the Yellow Book, it is on page sixteen. Mr Speaker, that is the Vote under Cabinet Office - Office of the President and Office of the Former President. Now during the debate, Sir, - I must be very careful on how I debate this - it was pointed out to the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development that the laws of the country must be respected. The current law of the land in the Constitution and otherwise, clearly states that there will be a vacancy in November and December.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Mr Patel: How is the current incumbent President going to be looked after in the months of November and December when no provision in the budget has been made. There is only a provision here for the President of our country. And the law of the land clearly states that there will be a vacancy this year. I would like to ask the Government how it will look after President Chiluba in November and December.

Laughter.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Education (Brigadier-General Miyanda): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to contribute on this Bill.

In fact, the reason why I wanted to rise was to support the Bill, which has been brought to this august House by the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development. In fact, I was hoping to stand up earlier in order to say that we should not have gone as far as we have. This is because what this Bill is seeking to do, is to ask this august House to authorise. You can read what it says and I quote.

‘The objectives of the Bill is to authorise expenditure from the general revenue of the Republic of moneys required for the services of the Republic during the financial year ending on the 31st December, 2001.

Now, to hear any one of us say that they object, does not make sense. It is because we are trying, through this Bill, to authorise the expenditure which has already been approved. 

Mr Silwamba: Yes!

Brigadier-General Miyanda: So, we should not even spend a lot of time. This, Mr Speaker, is not even to muzzle anyone, it is to say -  logically, what we are doing is to say, ‘All right, we have approved. Now, hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development bring the law to support the release of this money.’

What we should be concerned with is whether there are any errors in the figures. And if there any errors, in my humble view, Sir, I would say that the House should say so. Typographical errors can be corrected. 

We have already approved the figures which we are reading. That is the reason I stood up and to observe that, those hon. Members such as Hon. Sichinga, who made quite strong points which he feels require attention, I would say this is the wrong time for that. In fact, the reforms which are coming, I feel, should address all these concerns. The reason for that is that this House cannot make the reforms in this Chamber. It is not possible. We will just be arguing here. So, the points are valid and they should be taken note of and the hon. Members who are in that Committee will look at those proposals. but the purpose of this debate now is to say we approve the Bill to support what we have already approved. There is no way any of us can, now, go against what has already been approved by this House and has been handed over to Mr Speaker.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, I thank all my honourable Colleagues and Hon. Brigadier-General Miyanda, particularly, for that remark that has helped the House. 

Mr Speaker, there are just two points that I want to clarify, on the Supplementary Appropriation Bill that Hon. Sichinga made reference to. The Minister of Finance and Economic Development can only proceed after the Auditor-General’s Report has been debated and exhausted by the Public Accounts Committee for the years that he referred to. We have done that and the years that we submitted were 1996, 1997 and now we are proceeding to 1998. Sir, there is that sequence that must be followed.

Secondly, on the presentation of this Bill, Hon. Sibetta has some concern. Sir, I can only present this Bill after you have appointed me as a committee of one to introduce the Bill to the House. And this was done today and I have duly done the presentation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: What about the former President!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee today.

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (1998) BILL

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, as hon. Members will recall, this House approved the Supplementary Estimates No. 1 of 1998 to provide additional funds with which to carry out essential services of the Republic during the financial year ending on 31st December, 1998. 

The Bill which I am now presenting has been prepared in conformity with Article 117 (4) (b) of the Constitution of Zambia as intended to regularise expenditure totalling K74,973,476,036. The debate on this Bill has already taken place. It is, therefore, not my intention to open up another discussion.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Mponda (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I have no problem in supporting this Bill. Looking at the Appropriation Estimates which were approved in 1998, the total amount was K1,818 billion and this Supplementary Bill comes to 4.13 per cent. This is quite good and I wish to congratulate the hon. Minister.

However, there are a few points, Mr Speaker, which I will bring to the notice of this House when we look at the details. For example, if we look at the Ministry of Defence, we are asking for extra money and we are asking for K12 billion. But when we look at the Yellow Book of 1998, the total amount in 1997 was K39 billion. In 1998 it was reduced to K29 billion and again we are asking for almost the difference which the ministry cut from 1997 to 1998. Obviously, there must be something wrong in the Budget Office on this one.

If we go to the Office of the President - I am just checking out the bigger figures - we approved K11 billion, now we are asking for an excess amount of K10 billion. There must be something wrong with the budget. I think we need to get some more details why this has almost doubled to what it was.

Again, Sir, coming to my favourite subject, if we look at the Estimates for 1998, there is an amount under the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development in the Budget Office of K450 billion contingency which we approved in this House. I am just wondering why they have to bring this Bill when they should have used their money, K75 million from the K150 million contingency which this House approved. This is a question we are trying to ask.

With these few remarks, Sir, I thank you.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, I do not wish to belabour this but it appears that we have to because this similar debate takes place almost every year during budget session. 

The hon. Minister, in presenting this Bill, said Article 117 of the Constitution (4) (b) and I will read what it says:

“ ... the minister responsible for finance shall introduce in the National Assembly not later than fifteen months after the end of that financial year or, if the National Assembly is not sitting at the expiration of that period, within one month of the first sitting of the National Assembly thereafter, a Bill, ...”

Now we have twenty-six months plus days and this should have been done in fifteen months. Now, if he cannot respect our own Constitution, if he cannot respect our own laws, why do we, as hon. Members of Parliament, sit here and make laws, if the Executive repeatedly fail to comply with the very laws and the most sacred document of all the Constitution? I do not know what the problem is but this is what they repeatedly do. And, therefore, we often acknowledge that, maybe, we are a rubber stamp because of events of this nature.

Mr Speaker, the first glance at this Supplementary Appropriation Bill of 1998 and quickly glancing at the figures, of K10,225,000,000 to the Office of the President - Special Division. If you look at the appropriation of 1997, you will find that the biggest figure is for Special Division, no doubt in 1999 the biggest figure went to Special Division and last year it was the same. The hon. Minister himself, in this House this year, told us that the allocations given last year, the highest percentage over and above what was approved by Parliament was over 400 per cent given to the Special Division.

Mr Speaker, I have no argument that there is a need for a special division in any country but I do not agree that it requires this type of substantial allocation. There is eighty per cent poverty in our country, there is hunger in many homes everyday. We have recently qualified for HIPC and yet large amounts of money is given to the Special Division. An account, Sir, which no Committee in this House can ever look at, to check how that money is used. I find that completely immoral, hon. Minister, that you continue to do this, year in year out, without an explanation. I think that is immoral.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: It is all illegal. We have no Committee to look at the finances of the Special Division.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I thank my colleague Hon. Dipak Patel for his indulgence and explanation. Sir, I know that some of our colleagues may not take this issue seriously. The issue of Supplementary Appropriation is deliberately governed by a Constitution. Obviously it is an important issue and not only in the current Constitution but several other Constitutions before it. Left unattended, this can be a source of major disruption to the management of the resources of the country...

Mr Sibetta: Including fraud.

Mr Sichinga: We have spent so much time debating on how we share the national cake between the various locations and various needs that we have. I am on record, Sir, as having said that we need a deliberate and immediate change to this manner of doing things. This issue of Supplementary Appropriations is governed by an Act which the hon. Minister, indeed, quoted and which is Article No. 117 (4) (b).

Mr Speaker, my colleague has already alluded to the fact that we are at twenty-six months and according to the Act, it says that the hon. Minister shall present it not later than fifteen months. So, that has not been complied with...

Mr Muloji: Go to another point, please.

Mr Sichinga: ... and I dare say, Hon. Muloji that, even the year 1999 has not been dealt with. The year 2000 has not been dealt with. It has to be done within fifteen months. Why should it be so, it is because many of us here cannot recall that we approved this in 1998. Hon. Members, let us not take lightly serious issues. These are important issues. Having asked for Supplementary Estimates, the hon. Minister has an obligation to come back to this House with a Bill to give legal effect to the request he has made to the House. Hon. Members, there is a distinction between Estimates that the hon. Minister asks for and the actual expenditure and I dare say to you that, if you are to compare what was asked for as Estimates and what has actually been incurred you will find that it is quite different.

Mr Silwamba: You are right.

Mr Sichinga: This is a copy of what was approved as Act No. 3 of 1988 which was Appropriation and if you compare this with what is appearing in the Supplementary, there are major differences. Even the Estimates provided by the hon. Minister also differs with what has actually been incurred here. How many hon. Members have had the chance to look at what has been provided here and compare it with what we approved?

Mr Patel: Very few, if any.

Mr Sichinga: That is why we endorse things and tomorrow turn around and say, there is no money for roads when you have approved it. And the hon. Minister is perfectly in order to go and spend money because you have approved it yet you have not scrutinised it. And we as hon. Members of this House will be failing in our duties not to scrutinise what our friends in the Executive are doing. That is our role.

Mr Speaker, there are many issues here and I want to just emphasise the issue, for example, and I am only giving an example because there are many issues I could raise here. The Office of the President - Special Division, that my colleague has referred to, is consuming fifteen per cent of this additional expenditure. Why is that more important than sorting out the floods, feeding the hungry people in your areas, and the roads, schools or fertilizers which you have been talking about here during this whole session? Here we are, and now we do not have a choice, this money has been expended and so what are we doing, we are rubber stamping this because no hon. Member can stand up now and say we are not going to approve this. Yes, that is what I mean when I make reference to this House being a rubber stamp, it is this kind of thing.

Mr Speaker, just a short while ago we were talking about Appropriations and I made a point that these Appropriations are not worth the paper they are written on if this is what is going to happen. Mr Speaker, how often shall we speak and how often shall we advise our colleagues. I have made a request in this House that according to Article No. 118, there is a provision that the hon. Minister must ensure that a financial statement is presented to this House within nine months. We have suggested to the hon. Minister that that must be brought forward so that when hon. Members are debating the Appropriations for the current year, you will have figures for last year. With information technology at our finger tips, it is not impossible, it can be done.

I do not know how we are even comparing. I just want to emphasise that there is no basis for which you can compare what has been provided for this year in these Estimates with what happened last year. So how are you making decisions. Sir, we are rubber stamping this and it is a pity that this House should continue to do that year in year out. Hon. Minister, we really have to have a change, it cannot just go on. And I had hoped that the MMD with all these educated people, would have made a change to this situation, we cannot carry on the way we carried on in 1990. That is why the Committee on Estimates are making the same statements over and over, and really not even a single effort is being made. That is what I am complaining about.

Mr Speaker, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chipungu: Mr Speaker, we are not dealing with delegated legislation, we are dealing with Supplementary Appropriation. The House may not be abdicating its role. I think what the hon. Minister needs to clarify is very simple. In 1998, when my colleague was the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, there was this request for Supplementary Expenditure brought by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development to this House. Normally, Sir, we do this in the last quarter of the sitting. What is before us now is to bring that regularisation to this House to regularise this expenditure.

Sir, the only problem here is for the hon. Minister of Finance and Economic Development to tell us whether it is twenty six months or fifteen. When do you begin counting. I think when you do that, you will be able to carry along everybody. It is simple. Mr Speaker, you know that you have not received a report from the Public Accounts for 1999, again you go back to your Constitution and count when you begin ...

Mr Patel: They only count the Third Term.

Dr Chipungu: ... and then you carry everybody. Mr Speaker, let us make progress.

Mr Patel: Presidential material.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, I would like to share the frustrations of the hon. Members who have spoken regarding the timing of these Bills. I share your sentiments. But you may recall hon. Members that, I did make a commitment to you and to this House that during my tenure I will try my best to update what has been a backlog of reports that have not been audited and Bills that have not been presented to this House. I have tried to keep my faith, Sir, in the last two years, to try and update the public accounts of Zambia. I am sorry to say that I have not updated up to 2001, but I have done my best, as Minister of Finance and Economic Development, during my tenure, to update the accounts of Government during this period.

So, I am answering to your concerns, hon. Members. I understand what you are saying and I have been doing exactly that and this Bill reflects precisely, my commitment to update public accounts. So, I beg your indulgence that you support this Bill because that is exactly what you are asking for, that we update the public accounts. The more we delay this at various stages, the Public Accounts Committee reports which feeds into the financial reports, we never get these things ready. Unless we work together both at the level of the Executive and your Public Accounts Committee and update these accounts, the better. 

I am committed to that and I will do my best as far as this job is concerned.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee today.

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

THE SUPPLEMENTARY APPROPRIATION (1998) BILL, 2001

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2001

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Could I advise that if there is no circulation of an amendment, it cannot be accepted just like that on the Floor.

Mr Sibetta interrupted.

The Deputy Chairman: Hon. Sibetta, the etiquette of this House is that if there should be an amendment to any part of the Bill, it must be circulated. The hon. Minister should know in advance and all the hon. Members. Since we do not have any circulation, we take it that everybody was quite happy with the figures and all the arguments in the Bill.

Mr Sibetta interrupted.

The Deputy Chairman: Will the hon. Minister just assist the hon. Member. You said item No. 92, which province?

Interruptions.

Mr Kalumba: Mr Chairman, it is a typographical error. I am sure it will be corrected.

Schedules ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Supplementary Appropriation (1998) Bill, 2001

Third Reading today.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read a third time and passed:

The Supplementary Appropriation (1998) Bill, 2001

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President (Lieutenant-General Tembo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned accordingly at 2012 hours on Wednesday, 14th March, 2001, sine die.