DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OFTHE NINTH ASSEMBLY 

THE
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY DEBATES

OFFICIAL REPORT

OF THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

 
Friday, 25th January, 2002

The House met at 0900 hours

NATIONAL  ANTHEM

The Clerk read the Proclamation

ELECTION OF SPEAKER

The Clerk (Mr N. M. Chibesakunda): Hon. Members, let me preface my address to you by congratulating you, on behalf of the staff of the National Assembly of Zambia and, indeed, on my on behalf, on your successful election to this august House during the 27th December, 2001, General Elections.

In line with Standing Orders 20 (1) of the House, I am satisfied that a quorum, that is one third of all the Members of the Assembly, except for the person presiding, is present. It is, therefore, my honour and privilege to call the House to order.

My principal duty is to preside over the election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly of Zambia. You will, in due course, learn that this is the only time a Clerk acts as presiding officer in the House. In the Zambian Parliament, the office of the Speaker is established under Article 69 (1) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia and the office bearer is elected by Members of Parliament. The election of the Speaker of the National Assembly is the first business that the new Assembly transacts at its first meeting.

I will, now, quote two provisions of Article 69 for the purposes of business of the House this morning. I will begin with 69 (2), and I quote:

    “The Speaker shall vacate his office when the         National Assembly first sits after any dissolution         of the National Assembly.”

As of now, we do not have a Speaker. This is the first sitting of this House after dissolution.

Further, Article 69 (3) states, and I quote:

“No business shall be transacted in the National Assembly, other than an election to the office of the Speaker, at any time when the office of Speaker is vacant.”

It is important for the House to have a Speaker as the office of the Speaker is the position of the highest authority in the National Assembly and represents all hon. Members, all its powers, privileges, immunities, proceedings and dignity.

There are many striking similarities and significant differences in the processes used to elect Speakers in the Commonwealth Parliaments.

I will start with the case of India. In India, the procedure for electing the Speaker of the Lok Sabha is enshrined in Rule 7 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business. According to this rule, the election is held on a date as the President may fix and the Clerk sends a notice of that date to every Member. Another feature of the Indian procedure is that the names of the candidates for the Speakership are known before the election.

Any Member may give notice in writing addressed to the Clerk of the Lok Sabha or a motion that a Member be chosen as Speaker of the House. According to rule 7 (2) of their procedure, the notice must be seconded by a third Member and accompanied by a statement by the Member whose name is proposed in the notice that he is willing to serve as Speaker if elected.

The proposer and seconder of a candidate do not make any speech while proposing and seconding a candidate. The candidate also does not make a speech expressing his willingness to accept the office. Once the candidate is declared elected as Speaker of the Lok Sabha, he is conducted to the Chair by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. The Speaker, thereafter, conducts the proceedings as Speaker of the Lok Sabha and not as Speaker-elect requiring recognition by another authority.

In the United Kingdom, an election for the office of the Speaker in the House of Commons is held at the start of every new House, irrespective of whether the Speaker in the previous House has been retained as a Member. The Member presiding over the election of Speaker of the House of Commons has discretion to call upon any proposer to present a candidate’s name.

The mover and seconder of the candidate for the office of Speaker in the House of Commons are by custom back-benchers. The candidate, who is declared elected as Speaker of the House of Commons, is conducted to the Chair by the mover and seconder. At Westminster, a candidate elected to the office of Speaker remains Speaker-elect and does not commence conducting the proceedings as Speaker of the House of Commons until he or she is granted royal approbation.

Similarities and Differences{mospagebreak}

Unlike in the United Kingdom, in India, the member presiding over the election of the Lok Sabha’s Speaker does not call upon the proposals at his or her discretion, but according to the order in which all notices of motion by the election of the Speaker were received.

In India, unlike in the United Kingdom, it is not customary for the mover and seconder to be back-benchers. On a number of occasions, the motion  for the Speakership in the Lok Sabha has been moved by the Prime Minister and seconded by a Minister.

Contested Elections

Since 1952, there have been thirteen general elections each in India and the United Kingdom, which have consequently led to reconstitute their lower houses and seven elections in each country for the office of the Speaker. In India, except on four occasions, the Speaker, has been elected unanimously. Similarly, the numbers of contested elections in the House of Commons have been four for the same period.

The Zambian Situation

Hon. Members, those who have had time to read the recent launched book entitled ‘Parliament of Zambia’ may be aware of the number of those who have held the office of Speaker in our country since the time of the Northern Rhodesia Legislative Council in 1948. There have been six of these, but hardly was any contested.

In this regard, the elections of the Speaker have been guided by Standing Orders 3(1), (2), (3) and (4). Standing Order 3 (1) empowers the Clerk to be the Presiding Officer for election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker as already alluded to at the beginning of my address.

Standing Orders 3 (2) vests the Clerk with power, as Presiding Officer, to indicate a Member who wishes to propose to the House a person from among Members who are qualified to be elected as Members of the Assembly, but are not members of the Assembly and to name such person to take the Chair of the House as Speaker.

The seconder of such a proposal is similarly indicated by the Clerk. Taking precedents in the procedure and practice of electing a Speaker from other Commonwealth Parliaments and, indeed, from our own experiences, the following rules will apply:

    (a)    All names proposed for election to the         office of the Speaker must first be             seconded for their candidature to be valid;

    
(b)    the seconder and mover will not make any speech while proposing and seconding the candidate;

(c)    similarly, the candidates proposed for the office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker will also not make any acceptance speeches; and

(d)    in the event of more than one candidate being proposed and seconded for the two posts, i.e, Speaker and Deputy, I will explain the procedure to be followed for election of the two offices at a later time when the situation arises.

I am now calling for proposals for the election, first, of the Speaker of this House.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Clerk, I beg to propose that Frederick Shumba Hapunda be elected as Speaker of the House.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Clerk I beg to second the proposal.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Clerk, I beg to propose that Amusaa Mwanamwambwa to be elected as Speaker of the House.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mwaanga): Mr Clerk, I beg to second the proposal.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Clerk, I beg to second that Mukhondo Danwood Lungu be elected as Deputy Speaker.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Clerk, I beg to second the nomination.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Kalumba): Mr Clerk, I beg to propose that Simon Mwila be elected as Deputy Speaker of the House.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi): Mr Clerk, I beg to second the nomination.

Mr Chibesakunda: Since there are no further nominations, I would like to give the following guidelines and explanations for the election of Speaker and Deputy Speaker.

In view of the fact that proposals for the post of Speaker and also of Deputy Speaker are more than one, I wish to outline the following explanations and procedures which will be followed:

    (i)    The person who will be elected as Speaker         shall become a Member of the National         Assembly after his election and not             before;

    (ii)    Article 63 (2) of the Constitution of Zambia         states, and I quote:

‘Subject to the other provisions of this Constitution, the election of Members of the National Assembly shall be direct by universal adult suffrage and by secret ballot and shall be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution and as may be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament.’

    (iii)    The current Parliamentary practice in most         Commonwealth Parliaments, if not all, for         example, in the United Kingdom, Canada,         Kenya, Malawi, Australia, Tanzania,         Trinidad and Tobago, just to mention a         few, is that because of the importance         attached to the office of Speaker and to         maintain maximum transparency and         freedom of choice on the part of hon.         Members, the elections are conducted         through secret ballot;

    (iv)    I am aware of the fact that Standing Orders         No. (3) and (4) state that, and I quote:

    “If only one person is proposed and seconded as Speaker, the House indicates the cry of ‘hear, hear’ that the motion is passed without question put.

    If more than one person is proposed and seconded as Speaker, the Clerk shall successfully and in the order in which the person has been proposed and seconded, put the question, but naming the person to take the Chair of this House as Speaker. Until one such person is decided in the affirmative, such question shall be decided like other questions provided that in the event of their being an equality of votes, the question shall be decided in the negative.”

The definitions contained in the Standing Orders state that the Speaker includes the Deputy Speaker. However, the provisions of the Standing Orders quoted above are not provided for in any article of the Constitution of Zambia.

    (v)    The Constitution of Zambia makes it quite             clear that the supreme law of Zambia is             the Constitution. If any other laws,                 regulations or orders are inconsistent with             the Constitution, that law, regulation or             order shall be void.

In view of what I have stated above, I have no any other alternative, but to follow the provisions of the Constitution. Elections for the two positions will be conducted by secret ballot. I would like to remind all hon. Members that the current practice in Zambia is that all hon. Members of this House, that is councillors, mayors or chairpersons of municipal councils are elected by secret ballot. It is, therefore, quite clear, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: No, no!

The Clerk: Can I finish, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, no!

Interruptions

The Clerk: Order! Can we have some silence, please.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can I have some order, please.

Interruptions

The Clerk: I would like to emphasise one point which I stated earlier on.

Mr Sichinga: Why are you changing the rules?

Interruptions

The Clerk: Order! Can we have some order. I know you have your own views.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can we have some order, please. You are honourable Members.

Let me repeat what I said. I would like to remind all hon. Members that the current practice in Zambia is that all hon. Members of this House, councillors, mayors and so on are elected by secret ballot.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can I have some order, please.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can I have some order, please. Can I finish.

Interruptions

Miss Nawakwi: Why are you quoting from a wrong constitution?

The Clerk: Madam, with due respect, I am quoting from the Constitution and the Constitution is very dear.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, no!

The Vice-President: Mr Clerk and hon. Members of Parliament ...

Mr Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Vice-President: Hon. Members ...

The Clerk: Order!

Interruptions

Hon. Members started hurling water bottles at each other.

The Clerk: Can you get the police.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can we have some order.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can you get the police.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Hon. Members, ...

Interruptions

The Clerk: Order, please!{mospagebreak}

Hon. Opposition Members: Go. We want a division.

The Clerk: In view of the disorder in the House, I suspend business for twenty minutes.

Interruptions

Business was suspended from 0930 hours until 0955 hours.

The Clerk: Hon. Members, in view of what has transpired in the House this morning, I have no alternative, but to refer this matter to the High Court for interpretation. The House will be informed and all stakeholders are free to go and make their representations to the court.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Clerk: If you are democrats, you will also listen to other people.

Hon. Opposition Members: No! Point of order.

The Clerk: I am not here for points of order. Matters of the Constitution, as you are aware hon. Members, are dealt with by the High Court. I, therefore, adjourn the House until we get court interpretation.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The House adjourned accordingly at 0956 hours on Friday, 25th January, 2002.

Friday, 25th January, 2002

The House met at  0900 hours

NATIONAL ANTHEM

The Clerk read the Proclamation

ELECTION OF SPEAKER

The Clerk (Mr N. M. Chibesakunda): Hon. Members, let me preface my address to you by congratulating you, on behalf of the staff of the National Assembly of Zambia and, indeed, on my on behalf, on your successful election to this august House during the 27th December, 2001, General Elections.

In line with Standing Orders 20 (1) of the House, I am satisfied that a quorum, that is one third of all the Members of the Assembly, except for the person presiding, is present. It is, therefore, my honour and privilege to call the House to order.

My principal duty is to preside over the election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker of the National Assembly of Zambia. You will, in due course, learn that this is the only time a Clerk acts as presiding officer in the House. In the Zambian Parliament, the office of the Speaker is established under Article 69 (1) of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia and the office bearer is elected by Members of Parliament. The election of the Speaker of the National Assembly is the first business that the new Assembly transacts at its first meeting.

I will, now, quote two provisions of Article 69 for the purposes of business of the House this morning. I will begin with 69 (2), and I quote:

    “The Speaker shall vacate his office when the         National Assembly first sits after any dissolution         of the National Assembly.”

As of now, we do not have a Speaker. This is the first sitting of this House after dissolution.

Further, Article 69 (3) states, and I quote:

“No business shall be transacted in the National Assembly, other than an election to the office of the Speaker, at any time when the office of Speaker is vacant.”

It is important for the House to have a Speaker as the office of the Speaker is the position of the highest authority in the National Assembly and represents all hon. Members, all its powers, privileges, immunities, proceedings and dignity.

There are many striking similarities and significant differences in the processes used to elect Speakers in the Commonwealth Parliaments.

I will start with the case of India. In India, the procedure for electing the Speaker of the Lok Sabha is enshrined in Rule 7 of the Rules of Procedure and Conduct of Business. According to this rule, the election is held on a date as the President may fix and the Clerk sends a notice of that date to every Member. Another feature of the Indian procedure is that the names of the candidates for the Speakership are known before the election.

Any Member may give notice in writing addressed to the Clerk of the Lok Sabha or a motion that a Member be chosen as Speaker of the House. According to rule 7 (2) of their procedure, the notice must be seconded by a third Member and accompanied by a statement by the Member whose name is proposed in the notice that he is willing to serve as Speaker if elected.

The proposer and seconder of a candidate do not make any speech while proposing and seconding a candidate. The candidate also does not make a speech expressing his willingness to accept the office. Once the candidate is declared elected as Speaker of the Lok Sabha, he is conducted to the Chair by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition. The Speaker, thereafter, conducts the proceedings as Speaker of the Lok Sabha and not as Speaker-elect requiring recognition by another authority.

In the United Kingdom, an election for the office of the Speaker in the House of Commons is held at the start of every new House, irrespective of whether the Speaker in the previous House has been retained as a Member. The Member presiding over the election of Speaker of the House of Commons has discretion to call upon any proposer to present a candidate’s name.

The mover and seconder of the candidate for the office of Speaker in the House of Commons are by custom back-benchers. The candidate, who is declared elected as Speaker of the House of Commons, is conducted to the Chair by the mover and seconder. At Westminster, a candidate elected to the office of Speaker remains Speaker-elect and does not commence conducting the proceedings as Speaker of the House of Commons until he or she is granted royal approbation.

Similarities and Differences

Unlike in the United Kingdom, in India, the member presiding over the election of the Lok Sabha’s Speaker does not call upon the proposals at his or her discretion, but according to the order in which all notices of motion by the election of the Speaker were received.

In India, unlike in the United Kingdom, it is not customary for the mover and seconder to be back-benchers. On a number of occasions, the motion  for the Speakership in the Lok Sabha has been moved by the Prime Minister and seconded by a Minister.

Contested Elections

Since 1952, there have been thirteen general elections each in India and the United Kingdom, which have consequently led to reconstitute their lower houses and seven elections in each country for the office of the Speaker. In India, except on four occasions, the Speaker, has been elected unanimously. Similarly, the numbers of contested elections in the House of Commons have been four for the same period.

The Zambian Situation

Hon. Members, those who have had time to read the recent launched book entitled ‘Parliament of Zambia’ may be aware of the number of those who have held the office of Speaker in our country since the time of the Northern Rhodesia Legislative Council in 1948. There have been six of these, but hardly was any contested.

In this regard, the elections of the Speaker have been guided by Standing Orders 3(1), (2), (3) and (4). Standing Order 3 (1) empowers the Clerk to be the Presiding Officer for election of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker as already alluded to at the beginning of my address.

Standing Orders 3 (2) vests the Clerk with power, as Presiding Officer, to indicate a Member who wishes to propose to the House a person from among Members who are qualified to be elected as Members of the Assembly, but are not members of the Assembly and to name such person to take the Chair of the House as Speaker.

The seconder of such a proposal is similarly indicated by the Clerk. Taking precedents in the procedure and practice of electing a Speaker from other Commonwealth Parliaments and, indeed, from our own experiences, the following rules will apply: {mospagebreak}

    (a)    All names proposed for election to the         office of the Speaker must first be             seconded for their candidature to be valid;

    
(b)    the seconder and mover will not make any speech while proposing and seconding the candidate;

(c)    similarly, the candidates proposed for the office of Speaker or Deputy Speaker will also not make any acceptance speeches; and

(d)    in the event of more than one candidate being proposed and seconded for the two posts, i.e, Speaker and Deputy, I will explain the procedure to be followed for election of the two offices at a later time when the situation arises.

I am now calling for proposals for the election, first, of the Speaker of this House.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Clerk, I beg to propose that Frederick Shumba Hapunda be elected as Speaker of the House.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Clerk I beg to second the proposal.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Clerk, I beg to propose that Amusaa Mwanamwambwa to be elected as Speaker of the House.

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Mwaanga): Mr Clerk, I beg to second the proposal.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Clerk, I beg to second that Mukhondo Danwood Lungu be elected as Deputy Speaker.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Clerk, I beg to second the nomination.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Kalumba): Mr Clerk, I beg to propose that Simon Mwila be elected as Deputy Speaker of the House.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi): Mr Clerk, I beg to second the nomination.

Mr Chibesakunda: Since there are no further nominations, I would like to give the following guidelines and explanations for the election of Speaker and Deputy Speaker.

In view of the fact that proposals for the post of Speaker and also of Deputy Speaker are more than one, I wish to outline the following explanations and procedures which will be followed:

    (i)    The person who will be elected as Speaker         shall become a Member of the National         Assembly after his election and not             before;

    (ii)    Article 63 (2) of the Constitution of Zambia         states, and I quote:

‘Subject to the other provisions of this Constitution, the election of Members of the National Assembly shall be direct by universal adult suffrage and by secret ballot and shall be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution and as may be prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament.’

    (iii)    The current Parliamentary practice in most         Commonwealth Parliaments, if not all, for         example, in the United Kingdom, Canada,         Kenya, Malawi, Australia, Tanzania,         Trinidad and Tobago, just to mention a         few, is that because of the importance         attached to the office of Speaker and to         maintain maximum transparency and         freedom of choice on the part of hon.         Members, the elections are conducted         through secret ballot;

    (iv)    I am aware of the fact that Standing Orders         No. (3) and (4) state that, and I quote:

    “If only one person is proposed and seconded as Speaker, the House indicates the cry of ‘hear, hear’ that the motion is passed without question put.

    If more than one person is proposed and seconded as Speaker, the Clerk shall successfully and in the order in which the person has been proposed and seconded, put the question, but naming the person to take the Chair of this House as Speaker. Until one such person is decided in the affirmative, such question shall be decided like other questions provided that in the event of their being an equality of votes, the question shall be decided in the negative.”

The definitions contained in the Standing Orders state that the Speaker includes the Deputy Speaker. However, the provisions of the Standing Orders quoted above are not provided for in any article of the Constitution of Zambia.

    (v)    The Constitution of Zambia makes it quite             clear that the supreme law of Zambia is             the Constitution. If any other laws,                 regulations or orders are inconsistent with             the Constitution, that law, regulation or             order shall be void.

In view of what I have stated above, I have no any other alternative, but to follow the provisions of the Constitution. Elections for the two positions will be conducted by secret ballot. I would like to remind all hon. Members that the current practice in Zambia is that all hon. Members of this House, that is councillors, mayors or chairpersons of municipal councils are elected by secret ballot. It is, therefore, quite clear, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: No, no!

The Clerk: Can I finish, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, no!

Interruptions

The Clerk: Order! Can we have some silence, please.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can I have some order, please.

Interruptions

The Clerk: I would like to emphasise one point which I stated earlier on.

Mr Sichinga: Why are you changing the rules?

Interruptions

The Clerk: Order! Can we have some order. I know you have your own views.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can we have some order, please. You are honourable Members.

Let me repeat what I said. I would like to remind all hon. Members that the current practice in Zambia is that all hon. Members of this House, councillors, mayors and so on are elected by secret ballot.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can I have some order, please.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can I have some order, please. Can I finish.

Interruptions

Miss Nawakwi: Why are you quoting from a wrong constitution?

The Clerk: Madam, with due respect, I am quoting from the Constitution and the Constitution is very dear.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, no!

The Vice-President: Mr Clerk and hon. Members of Parliament ...

Mr Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Vice-President: Hon. Members ...

The Clerk: Order!

Interruptions

Hon. Members started hurling water bottles at each other.

The Clerk: Can you get the police.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can we have some order.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Can you get the police.

Interruptions

The Clerk: Hon. Members, ...

Interruptions

The Clerk: Order, please!

Hon. Opposition Members: Go. We want a division.

The Clerk: In view of the disorder in the House, I suspend business for twenty minutes.

Interruptions

Business was suspended from 0930 hours until 0955 hours.

The Clerk: Hon. Members, in view of what has transpired in the House this morning, I have no alternative, but to refer this matter to the High Court for interpretation. The House will be informed and all stakeholders are free to go and make their representations to the court.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

The Clerk: If you are democrats, you will also listen to other people.

Hon. Opposition Members: No! Point of order.

The Clerk: I am not here for points of order. Matters of the Constitution, as you are aware hon. Members, are dealt with by the High Court. I, therefore, adjourn the House until we get court interpretation.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The House adjourned accordingly at 0956 hours on Friday, 25th January, 2002.