DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 13th March, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

OATH AND AFFIRMATION OF ALLEGANCE

The following Member took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Newstead Lewis Zimba

Mr Speaker: Despite the fact that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services walked himself into the Chamber, from that reception, I take it that the hon. Minister is very warmly welcome among us.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: But this is a New Deal!

Mr Speaker: Order!

MOTION

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply. I am a bearer of five messages from the President recommending that these motions, which I will now lay on the Table, be proceeded with in the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, as a result of the Budget, which I presented on 1st March, 2002, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures which I will outline in Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs Act so as:

(a)    revise the Customs tariff to bring it in line with international standards and trade practices of the Harmonised Commodity Description Coding System under the International Convention on Harmonised Commodity, Description and Coding System (1993) to which Zambia is a party;

(b)    revise the rates of Customs and Excise duty payable on certain goods; and

(c)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly .

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in the Budget Speech on 1st March, 2002.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

VALUE ADDED TAX

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to:

(a)    provide for input tax not to be deducted or credited after a period of one year from the date of the relevant tax invoice;

(b)    remove the provision which made interest on any tax due and owing able to attract further interest; and

(c)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in the Budget on 1st March, 2002.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Chairman , through you, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister that ‘meal meal’…

Mr Silwamba: Mealie meal.

Mr Sibetta: You do not grow it. You grow cassava.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: VAT on mealie meal should be removed. Our people are going through the most difficult time and the cost of mealie meal, Mr Chairman, is unaffordable, partly because it is not available due to wrong policies of this Government for the past ten years on agriculture. Also due to high Value Added Tax on mealie meal. I think it would be advisable to reduce the VAT on mealie meal. We should exempt it completely during these hard times.

I see you, Your Honour, shaking your head. You know the situation in Kabompo. You had to go through using relief maize. If not, you would not have been there. Your people there are suffering like my people and everybody else. We should reduce VAT on mealie meal. Our people are suffering and we cannot have this VAT on mealie meal recycled to the Presidential Fund where it is being squandered. This is a very valid point, Mr Chairman, and if this Government wants to commit suicide, they should go ahead with VAT on mealie meal.

I thank you. 

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, it is unusual to debate issues of that kind in the First Reading, to say the least.

Laughter.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in the Budget on 1st March, 2002.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, I plead to you all to go and read your Constitution and especially the section that deals with finance, 114 and it goes on. Once we understand that, there will be no split of opinion in this House.

INCOME TAX

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

(a)    increase the tax free income threshold for individuals from one million four hundred and forty thousand kwacha to one million eight hundred thousand kwacha per annum;

(b)    remove the ten per centum and twenty per centum tax rates applicable to individuals; 

(c)    increase the person with disability tax credit from one thousand two hundred kwacha per annum to eighteen thousand kwacha per annum;

(d)    increase the exempt portion of terminal benefits from three million kwacha to five million kwacha;

(e)    increase the commutable limit for pensions from one million kwacha to five million kwacha;

(f)    repeal the provisions dealing with mortgage interest;

(g)    increase the deduction for employing persons with disability from two hundred and forty thousand kwacha per annum to five hundred thousand kwacha per annum.

(h)    Repeal the provisions dealing with education passages;

(i)    increase the farm dwelling allowance from one million kwacha to five million kwacha;

(j)    introduce provisions dealing with share options schemes;

(k)    remove the tax exemption on interest earned from Government bonds; and

(l)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me to introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in the Budget on 1st March, 2002.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Property Tax Transfer Act so as to:

(a)    remove the word the “Commissioner of Taxes” where ever it appears and replace it with words “Commissioner General”;

(b)    repeal the provisions making reference to the “Department of Taxes”; and 

(c)    provide for matters connected with and incidental to the foregoing; and that a Bill give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Property Transfer Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in the budget this month.

Question put and agreed.

MINES AND MINERALS ACT

Mr Kasonde: I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Mines and Minerals Act so as:

(a)    provide concession and incentives for the mining sector; and 

(b)    provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing; and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Mines and Minerals Act so as to introduce changes that I announced I in the budget this month.

Question put and agreed to.

The Chairman: Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is it in order for the hon. Members of Parliament to debate this Bill

Mr L. L. Phiri: There is a wrong man there. VJ was the same.

Laughter.

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Resolution reported.

Reports adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning  to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

BILLS

FIRST READING

The following Bills were read the first time:

The Customs and Excise Act (Amendment) Bill, 2002.

The Value Added Tax Act (Amendment) Bill, 2002.

The Income Tax Act (Amendment) Bill, 2002.

The Property Transfer Tax Act (Amendment) Bill, 2002.

The Mines and Minerals Act (Amendment) Bill, 2002.

Second Readings on Thursday, 14th March, 2002.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 08/01 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Headquarters –K750,259,873).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to continue the debate that was adjourned last Friday.

Before the debate was adjourned, Mr Chairman, I just asked to find out the difference between Head 08/04 and 08/05, in terms of purchases of services where the founding President had an estimate of K39,965,000, while the current former President …

Mr Patel: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Patel: Mr Chairman, I seek your kind indulgence in this point of order and I also want to confirm with you, Sir, that I am familiar with the provisions in the Constitution with regard to financial matters, as I am familiar with Standing Orders. 

Mr Chairman, on Friday, I sought, in accordance with Section 82 (4) of our Standing Orders, to circulate amendments on this Vote which is under debate now. I have been denied the right and privilege from 0930 hours Friday morning to date. Is it in order therefore, Mr Chairman, to continue debating this Vote when I have been denied the right?

Sir, let me quote the relevant Section on financial matters. Section 82, paragraph 4 and it reads:

“If no notice of an amendment to any Vote has been given and no Member offers to speak thereon, the Chairman shall without question put, declare that the Vote is ordered to stand part of the Estimates. But if any Member offers to speak, the Chairman shall forthwith propose the question that the Vote stand part.”

Mr Chairman, I have been denied this singular right and privilege. I, therefore, ask your considered ruling, that should this Vote therefore not be suspended, and I be afforded my privilege and right in accordance with the Standing Orders.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! New Deal!

The Chairman:  I was informed outside that papers to amend this Vote had been filed with the Clerk’s office. Up to this point in time, I have not seen any of these papers. 

Later on, I was also informed that the borne of contention is about disbursement of funds to the office of the immediate past President. If what I have stated now is anything to go by, then I do not see the reason why we should not go ahead with this Vote. If all of you Members, please, can go and read, Article 42, Section 3 of the Constitution which deals with the payment of salaries and other emoluments to the former presidents, you will see that that Article does not provide any restrictions at all. No conditions laid down that the former President should get this if he is not involved in a, b, c, d.  Article 42, Section 3 to be specific.

In addition to that, I am informed that the case has been taken to court. If again this is anything to go by, you cannot have your cake and eat it. You cannot use two arms of government to solve one problem. If this case is in court, then we have to go ahead with the Vote and then wait the outcome of the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Chairman: Order, order! What you are seeking the court to do is to stop payment to former President Chiluba, you are not nullifying this Vote at all. You better see the difference. You are not saying that this Vote must be scrapped completely from the budget, all what you are saying is that former President Chiluba should not be paid and that is the case which is in the court. And we are not here to deal with the payment side of these funds to former President Chiluba, we are concerned with the approval, making money readily available for this office. That is all.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions.

Mr Chairman: Will Hon. Tetamashimba continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, thank you very much for allowing me to continue on this Vote.

Miss Nawakwi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr. Chairman, I seek your indulgence. Certainly the House cannot debate its procedures. I was a Member in the last ten years and I am aware that when a motion is put, you allow the motion on the Floor so that the Executive can give exactly those reasons that the Chair is giving. How are we to proceed from now on? Is the Chair going to stop us from raising points of clarification and, indeed, trying to circulate amendments like the District Administrators Vote which is, in fact, not in the Establishment Register but the District Administrators are being paid. Are we going to follow the same procedures and say the President is looking at it. I seek your guidance because some of us are new Members in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Yes, I admit, I have been wrong to allow you to raise a point of order on my ruling. His debate had a point of order raised by Hon. Patel and after ruling, I gave him the Floor but you chipped in and raised a point of order which means you raised a point of order on my ruling and I have not been debating but simply guiding the House. So, your point of order is nullified. Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions.

Mr. Tetamashimba: Mr. Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to continue…

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: Will the hon. Member, continue, please.

Interruptions.

Mr. Tetamashimba: Mr. Chairman, I had started that before adjournment last Friday…

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: Hon. Sibetta, on whose debate are you raising your point of order?

Mr. Sibetta: Mr. Chairman, I am raising a point of order on His Honour the Vice-President.

Laughter.

The Chairman: His Honour the Vice-President is not debating.

Mr. Sibetta: According to procedure, I am free to raise a point of order to ask the His Honour the Vice President on what has happened.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! If you do not want to raise a point of order on the debate on the Floor and if you are raising a point of order on something that has happened, it must have material evidence in writing which later on is to be laid on the Table. If you have something like a newspaper article which talks about His Honour the Vice-President and after that you are going to lay it on the Table, I will allow that. But if not, will the hon. Member for Solwezi Central, continue, please.

Interruptions.

Mr. Tetamashimba: Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much,…

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order.

Interruptions.

Mr. Tetamashimba: … for allowing me…

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: Order! Please, continue.

Mr. Tetamashimba: Mr. Chairman, I hope the Clerks-at-the-Table are adding my minutes.

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr. Tetamashimba: Mr. Chairman, I was saying that when we adjourned last week…

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr. Tetamashimba: … I made a comment that their was a difference in that the founding President had been given K39, 965,000 while the immediate past President had been given K41, 431,380.03, there was a difference of about K6 million. I want to find out the difference.

Mr. Chairman, just before I continue, my debate, I wish to welcome the new Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services. We wish to assure you that you have come to find us and that if you are going to be like your predecessor, we are not going to allow you to continue in that way.

Mr. Chairman, Head 08/05…{mospagebreak}

Mr. Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr. Tetamashimba: Sir, I would like to comment on the immediate past President. Sir, we all know that a few years ago, the immediate past President brought a Bill to this House on terminating the conditions that the founding President was enjoying at that time.

Mr. Chairman, a law was passed that anybody, who was in active politics like the founding President was at that time, was denied the total benefits that he was entitled to. Sir, the way I see it, what is there is there has not been any second President of the Republic of Zambia who has retired other than the founding President as at now. And, therefore, I see no reason why we should be putting an Estimate in the Budget for somebody we know there is no vacancy.

Mr. Chairman, …

Mr. Silwamba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr. Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Hon. Members, please, see the difference. Hon. Silwamba is raising a point of order on Hon. Tetamashimba’s debate.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! If you keep quiet you will understand but if I talk and you are also talking, then what are you trying to do.

Mr. Sibetta: You should have allowed me to raise my point of order.

The Chairman: You said you wanted to raise a point of order on the Vice-President. I explained that if you are raising a point of order which is not related to the debate on the Floor, it must be on an article in the paper or anything written which later on you will be required to lay it on the Table. I asked you this question and you did not show it.

Mr. Sibetta: I did.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: You did not show it. 

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Let us hear Mr. Silwamba’s point of order.

Interruptions.

Mr. Silwamba: Mr. Chairman, part 5 of the Constitution reposes legislative sovereignty in this august House. Part 6 reserves the right to interpret the law in the Judiciary. Is the hon. Member for Solwezi Central (Mr. Tetamashimba) in order to debate in the manner he is when he is very cognisant of the fact that this matter is before the High Court or judicature for Zambia and, therefore subjudice.

Interruptions.

Mr. Silwamba: Is he, therefore, in order to debate in the style and manner that he is.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: The hon. Member…

Mr. Patel: Shame on you!

Miss Nawakwi: There will be no Budget this year.

Mr. Kasonde: You want the people to suffer?

The Chairman: … on the Floor, please, this case is in the court of law.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Do not make any references in your debate to the issue that is in the court of law.

Interruptions.

Mr Chairman: Will you, please, continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, thank you for allowing me to continue my debate. I know it is very painful if you were a Minister at State House, chairing Tender Board and then you had people at FRA, etc and conniving to do everything bad. We should not bring those things here but wait for a Vote on agriculture then we shall discuss it.

Mr Chairman, what we are not discussing about issues in court. We are looking at what is in the Budget. If what is in the Budget is going to bring somebody who is purporting to be a former President and meanwhile wants to continue to practise as a politician of a club which is against the law, is what we are debating here. That is the issue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is not about something that is in court.

Sir, what I am saying is that we now have people with integrity in Parliament. There are no more drug traffickers in Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Therefore, hon. Members in this Parliament wants to go with the integrity that it deserves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Therefore, it can not pass any Estimates for the position that is not there. That is the whole purpose. We are not saying that if today, this Vote is out and tomorrow somebody decides to quit his club, we are not going to approve his Estimates, if it is brought, we are going to. For now, we cannot and should not approve estimate of an office which is not there. That is the whole purpose.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, as Members of Parliament, we are going to send a message that if President Mwanawasa is going to bring in laws to punish former President, when he goes out it will follow him.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: This law was made to punish the founding President, Dr Kaunda.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Now, those who were in the fore front and the people that said to debate on his behalf here, now want to change the Constitution. Why did we not change the Constitution before we debate this Vote?

Mr Chairman, all we are saying is that until the immediate past President decides to retire from heading a club called MMD, at that time when the hon. Minister brings to Parliament Supplementary Estimates, we are going to give him a 100 per cent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: But for now, even the Minister of Finance and National Planning, will not be seen to have integrity if he is going to continue saying that there should be money budgeted for a person who is not there. We are talking about  integrity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, we know that as Members of Parliament, what we are doing here is going to be judged by the people who sent us here.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Not by this House.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, if today, we make a law which is to victimise an individual, tomorrow it will catch up. We have had people, for example, Ministers who are very economic on the truth. A Judge will be saying something today the following morning that person says this is what has happened. It is good that people are leaving this House because we do not want people who are very economic with the truth.

So, Sir, we are not there to punish anybody who is entitled to his benefits. We do not want to hear our colleagues saying that we were told this in the NEC meeting that soon or later, - there is nothing like that. If hon. Members of Parliament are going to pass this Vote, we will not be said to have integrity. Let him resign. If he wanted tomorrow he would have announced that he has resigned from being a President of a club. We were not even going to debate we are debating because we do not want to go against the law. If we are going to go against the law, then we are not worth being called hon. Members of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: This Vote is going to make us see who is honourable and who is not in terms of the law.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: I thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, two things have crissed-crossed my mind. Firstly, the case is in the court. Secondly, the sentiments expressed and echoed by most of you people seem to be centered on one individual. Now, to have my mind very clear and remain independent in my mind, I am deferring this Vote and asking the Leader of Business of the House to come back with …

Mr Sibetta: That is why we raised a point of order on Kavindele. He is wasting our time.

Laughter.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, I do not want to throw words of fear in individual innocent people’s minds. Your behaviour, hon. Member, is not good this afternoon.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: I am forced to explain. The Chair has the power to name a Member who behaves the way Hon. Sibetta has done. It is not allowed. You can make a point. Hon. Tetamashimba has made a point on behalf of you. That is why I am putting a stop to the debate of this Vote so that His Honour the Vice-President can come back to us with an explanation and how he is going to reconcile all these issues you have brought in.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: If I name a Member who persistently misbehaves, this is what follows: I will suspend business of this House and the Speaker, will immediately come in and His Honour the Vice-President will immediately recommend to the Standing Orders Committee one of these three thing. Either warning, suspension or expulsion.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Those who want to know more about this are free to come and look at the literature in my office. This is something we do not want to use and I am not going to use it.

Anyway, I defer this Vote and I plead with His Honour the Vice-President to come with something to this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Now, we will go back to item No. 01 and I will ask His Honour the Vice-President to explain the difference between the two figures. We already debated this Vote and after the explanation we will go straight to individual items.

VOTE 01/01 – (Office of the President – State House – K3,900,712,522).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity of presenting to this House the policy statement and Estimates of Expenditure for the year 2002 for Head 01/01 – Office of the President – State House.

Sir, the manpower position for State House is not very good. Eighty-two posts are vacant and they have not been filled for quiet sometime. I wish to report to you, Sir, that it is my Government’s intention to restructure State House in order to improve efficiency at this institution. The present staffing levels are however, as follows:

President    1
Deputy Minister    1
Special Assistants    4
Permanent Secretary    1
Senior Private Secretaries    3
Civil Servants (Other ranks)    80
Classified Daily Employees    123

The civil servants and classified daily employees provide services to seven Presidential Lodges based in Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe. There have been major programmes and these projects are at implementation levels. There were two projects undertaken at State House in the year 2001. These are as follows:

1.    Refurbishment of the main kitchen at the main State House. This project has been completed and a modern kitchen is, now, in place befitting the standards of the institution; and

2.    renovations and refurbishment of Kafue House. The Presidential Lodge in Kitwe is almost completed.

The immediate past President never used the facility due to its dilapidated state. However, this will change shortly and I hope the first family will be able to use the facility when renovations are completed.

Mr Chairman, both projects have been carried out by Apollo Construction Company and it cost about K2.5 billion allocated through the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Mr Chairman, analysis of the expenditure of K9.2 billion for State House in the year 2001 reviews that K3.4 billion was originally allocated, but due to a number of additional activities that were undertaken during the same year, a supplementary allocation of K5.6 billion was approved by this House. This was to meet expenditure peculiar to that year, such as clearance of outstanding bills to suppliers of goods and services; the more courteous calls at State House as a result of the Organisation of African Unity (OAU) Heads of State and Government Summit; and provincial tours by the former Republic President.

Mr Chairman, it is my hope and belief that without the special events and activities recorded in 2001, the requested Budget allocation for State House of K3.9 billion for the year 2002 should be adequate as provincial tours to be undertaken by His Excellency the President this year will be made from the contingency funds under control 99. Furthermore, if unforeseen expenditures are incurred during the course of the year and extra revenues are collected, I may come back with some supplementary provision to cover the expenditure.

I, therefore, Sir, table the K3.9 billion budget provision for Head 01/01 – Office of the President – State House and seek the favourable consideration of this august House. The provision is broken down as follows

Personal Emoluments    K1,805,500,000
Recurrent and Departmental Charges    K2,095,202,000
Total provision    K3,900,712,522

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members indicating to debate.

The Chairman: Order! We debated this and I will just put the question.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: It was after the debate that we agreed to defer this.

Hon. Opposition Members: No! What debate? We have the right to debate.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Was it not at the end of the debate that we agreed to defer this?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: Hon. Members, can we, please, follow the procedure.

Hon. Opposition Members: We are following the procedure.

The Chairman: I think some of you are not trying to follow the procedure.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I am glad that at long last, I am given this opportunity to give my maiden speech.

Laughter.

Mr Muyanda: Parliament must reform itself by first encouraging the new hon. Members to give their maiden speeches …

Laughter.

The Chairman: Order!

Interruptions.

The Chairman: I just want two people to debate on this Vote because I have a list of people who debated last time and I have got it here.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal (Namwala): Mr Chairman, on State House, I would like to say that issues in line with good governance are transparency and accountability. In the Estimates of Expenditure, the Presidential discretionary fund is not reflected and yet, in the past, the President gave money away. Can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning tell us that His Excellency the President will not be giving money away since there is no allocation in the Budget. Can the hon. Minister of Finance also disclose where the figures for the district administrators are hidden. The hon. Minister attributed over-runs on the tripartite elections and hosting of the OAU Heads of State Summit as contributing to the failure to meet Gross Domestic Produce targets. There is need to know what authority there was for the over-runs and what steps are being taken to recover money that was not properly authorised. Measures should be put in place to ensure that this never takes place again in order to avoid instances of budgetary abuse through questionable supplementary expenditure. For example, I think we heard the Vice-President talk about the OAU Summit and the elections. There is a need to have regular monitoring by the parliamentary committee, especially to review and approve the variations.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Mr Chairman, I am most grateful for the transparency from His Honour the Vice-President and Leader of the House. He has pointed out that the over-expenditure in the previous financial year at State House was due to numerous provincial visits conducted by the Republican President last year and, now, President of some party.

Laughter.

Miss Nawakwi: We all know that the former President, last year, was conducting campaign tours. The Leader of the House has been very transparent to this House and admitted that the State House Vote was used partly for the presidential campaigns. He has emphasised that. 

Interruptions.

Miss Nawakwi: He mentioned provincial presidential tours when the only tours we are aware of are party provincial tours to Northern and Western provinces. There was no provincial tour that was purely administrative and executive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, we, in the Opposition, have been very generous. We wanted our current President to be more than comfortable and have money transparently put before him in case of emergency - he is the Chairman of OAU, a chair that has been bequeathed to him. In case of a major disaster, as the Leader of the House may know, if he has not started organising water bowsers, he should do that because we need the President to go to remote parts to see how people are dying from hunger.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, I am perturbed to hear from our Leader of the House that the Executive wants to hide some money under Control 99, unless I am deaf. Control 99 is for constitutional expenditure and State House is not under Control 99. When we leave money for contingency under Control 99, we expect that money to be expended for calamities and major disasters. Now, if we are going to hide money under Special Division, then we have a presidential Vote through the back door.

Hon. Government Members: No.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, we are urging the Executive to do something transparency on the table. When we come to the Vote for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we want the hon. Minister to prepare good explanations. Once, the former Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Katele Kalumba, begged this House to spend 0.7 per cent as deficit financing of GDP but ended up with positive figures? Where did the money come from? How was it spent? And who authorised it? There are figures jumping from K3 billion to K9 billion under State House and you wonder where this money came from. But that is part of deficit financing. 

Mr Chairman, when the Opposition stands up here, we do not want to distract the business of the House. We are a proud people in this country. We want to be honoured with two offices of Former Presidents so that we can go to the institute of something to consult our former presidents.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: I will be one of those people who will be in a hurry to get the library built. We would want our former Presidents settled comfortably so that we are proud like Swanas are proud. Each year we have a former President, in this country, we have to go through an agonising time to try to persuade them to retire. Maybe, before they take oath, we should ask them to sign a covenant that they will retire as and when time requires them to retire. It is not that we do not want our former Presidents to be comfortable. We want them to be comfortable. 

We feel embarrassed that we have to collect vehicles that they are supposed to be entitled to from them. It is an embarrassment. But honestly, the Bemba say mwikala patalala, mwine apatalalika, meaning if you want to live in a calm environment, you must create conditions for it. If you want to be referred to as a former President, behave like a former President and not a politician. With our First Former President, it was sad. It was agonising. I listened to people saying if he is in active politics, he cannot use the vehicles of the State to run around and organise politics. So be it. If someone is president of mwadya mweka daddy party, he can not use tax-payers’ money to run around and organise his party.

Mr Chairman, we need a correct explanation. I trust that it was a slip of the tongue by the Leader of the House to suggest that if State House needs extra moneys, they will go to Control 99. It is not possible. It cannot be authorised. We cannot get every department of Government running to Control 99 because it is a constitutional expenditure and the money under contingency are moneys which are under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for other emergencies not necessarily State House. A message for the Chairman of MMD, who is also Member of Parliament for Kalulushi, please, we want our former President properly retired so that he can stop politics and start organising his library and start working. I think it is up to the elders in this House …

Mr Sampa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sampa: Mr Chairman, is it in order for Hon. Nawakwi to discuss party politics in this House? I beg your ruling.

The Chairman: She is out of order. 

Will she, please, continue.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, I thank you for your ruling. 

I was just saying that the second President of this country is denying himself the luxury of being our second retired president and I am begging this House or elders in this House to persuade him to give us the privilege to look after him. I personally do not like what happened to him, going to collect vehicles and sending them back to Cabinet Office, although he asked for it. Those are not party politics. Those are matters that are being put before this House that the Chair ruled on. But also, Mr Chairman, precisely because of the fact that the matter is before the courts of law, we cannot get the Leader of the House to bring a Vote to be discussed here which is, in fact, being discussed outside. We are aware of the fact that the Government has a tendency to go to court and withdraw matters that are before this House.

Mr Chairman, I think that the Leader of the House must agree. Either the money is enough or he should not tell us that he has not properly budgeted. He is going to look at some other Vote. If you know what you are going to spend, then what is the contingency for?

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: I am really, really surprised. I do not see the essence of the complaint of Hon Sichinga, and whoever has complained this side. Those who have been here before and I am sure even those have been closely associated with the operations of Parliament , know it very well that there is no Member of Parliament, one Member of Parliament, who can debate on one issue twice. Estimates of Expernditure, 8thmarch, 2002, Head 01/01;-State House, the following people were given the Floor and debated.

(i)    Hon  Sibetta 
(ii)    Hon. Patel
(iii)    Hon. Hachipuka
(iv)    Hon. Sichinga

Do they want me to give them another chance and leave the other people?

Hon. Members: No!

The Chairman: Now, what is it? Now let us be serious. Do not force me into taking disciplinary measures. You are my colleagues, you are my brothers and sisters. Let us work together properly in harmony and do not make me bleed from the nose because of the operation of this House.

The Vice-President: Mr. Chairman, in thanking you I wish to state that in arriving at the Vote for State House, the practice is that we sit down with the people and they tell us what their requirements are. And in this case that is what was followed. 3.9 billion is what has been found to be adequate funds for running State House .Now, you cannot force money on the President when he does not want it., because that is what you are saying. And this is the mistake that has been made previously. Now you have a President who says look, I can run this place on 3.9 billion.

Right, now you are saying no, no, it is too little. He should run it on 9 billion. He does not need the 5.6 billion difference Even previously, State House was on 3.4 billion, But I explained the reasons why that Vote shot to 9 billion. The reasons included that we had the OAU Conference. And certain presidents needed to visit their colleague at State House. And by visiting their colleague at State House, they had to provide facilities there. And that State House facilities have not been taken away by the immediate past president. They are there for President Mwanawasa to use. And President Mwanawasa has made it categorically clear that he has no intentions of changing things that have already been changed or thing that are there. Those Items that he found are the same items that he is using. Just like….

Interruptions.

The Vice- President:…yes, including the bed. Just like this Vice-President, he is using the same things that Tembo used. 

Laughter

The Vice-President: The only difference there is that I have a better bed. And I can explain why.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: During the OAU, I left that house for President Gaddafi. Now President Gaddafi brought his own bed, his own beddings, I must say. And when he left, he said to me, Mr Vice-President thank you very much and you can have…

Laughter.

The Vice-President: So, Hon Nawakwi, I have no opportunity of showing you the …

Laughter

Hon Member: Show her. She is willing 

The Vice-President: However, if you continue…

Laughter

The Vice-President: If you continue wanting to know how the Government resources have been spent, well, in the case of my house you are also Vice-President of some club, I hear.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: So, hopefully in the future, Twenty years from now, if that bed will still be there, you may have the occasion to use it.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Now, thank you very much, Mr Chairman. Regarding Presidential tours.The President has to go round the country visiting his people. Otherwise, you will start saying that no, the President only stays in Lusaka. And Presidential tours are quite expensive as you know. Hon Nawakwi, times do change. Today, she pleads that the law was made for somebody else. You and I were here together. You are the one who started dancing here, Kaunda alala, alala, Kaunda alala, alala

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Now, today you are saying you are ill-treating the former President. We are not. Mr Chairman, only two days ago, on Monday evening, we had a request to do certain things for the former President. And we are always in touch, we are in contact with former Presidents.

Hon Opposition Members: Which one?

The Vice-President: First former, Dr. Kenneth Kaunda. So, all I am saying Mr Chairman, is that the President finds the Vote adequate and you are not going to force too much money on the President because we have gone through it and he says there will be no more discretionary funds from State House If there should be any need for money it is his hope that those requirements shall go through the ministries. If you want an ambulance for your constituency, for instance, now you will have to go to Hon Sondashi, Minister of Works and Supply to apply for it. They will not be any ambulances given from there at all.

Now if at all there is any payment that needs to be made regarding the President's tours or whatever, the President has suggested and we have agreed that Cabinet Office shall be in charge of meeting the cost of Presidential tours. The reason is, whenever the President travels, he travels with many civil servants. So, why should State House pay for this?

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I thank you for wanting to give him too much money. But he does not want it. In less than ten years you start coming here now, using the same people, saying-aah now that one spent 12 billion, spent 15 billion. No he is saying that he is happy with the K3.9 billion and we thank our President for being frugal.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions.

The Chairman: No, no do not blame them my good colleagues. When business or debate has been wound up by either the Minister or the Vice-President, that marks the end of that Vote. So, you have to struggle to catch my eye before I ask any one of the hon. Ministers or the Vice-President to respond. Once you have done that, that is the end of everything. Thank you.

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates 

VOTE 27/01(- Public Service Management Division  - Office of the President K140,664,543,378).

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Chairman, I rise to debate on this Vote. Going through the various votes, I have not sort of come across a vote which deals specifically with the pension entitlements for soldiers and I see that most of them just covers the Civil Service. So, I think for the purpose of clarification, if we could have some element of information in terms of how the pension for soldiers is catered for. I say this, Sir, due to the fact that although the ministry of Defence is a security wing, most of these soldiers when they are out of office, they stay with us also as part of our families and we have the burden of looking after them until they get their pensions.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Chairman, I wanted to share my personal fears here regarding the budget figures. I feel extremely uncomfortable to pass a generally lump-sum in terms of provisional sums of money in the guise of other emoluments when, in fact, there is no basis of build up of this figure. For me, as a quantity surveyor with intense knowledge on build up of figures and costing, I find these figures as blank cheques for those in charge of various headings and I would only appreciate these figures and append my signature to this budget if an indicative breakdown of these sums is applied as an addendum to this budget. Otherwise, they should be removed from this budget and be put under agriculture or housing to trigger off economic activities in our self inflicted poverty stricken country. 

Provisional sums are normally supposed to be explained and there should be a back up. There is usually a tendency in offices to abuse figures that are not well defined. If, for example, I say there is a provisional sum of K1 billion at a construction site, there should be an indication or subheadings under that particular sum. Otherwise, there is a tendency to abuse because the person would want to fill in figures backwards. So, as a matter of request through you, Sir, it will be prudent to come up with an indicative expenditure schedule that other emoluments will take, for example, allowances for people to take so many hours.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Situmbeko (Senanga): Mr Chairman I rise to debate on No. 3- Public Service Pension Funds Board. Pension arrears and; on 004 - Public Service Pension Fund.

Mr Chairman, I think it is high time we looked in the affairs of our old people who have served this country for so many years. The pension for Public Service Officers who have served this country, is too little to maintain them. A person who has served this country for more than fifty years, when retired, is only given per month K23,000 when a bag of maize is costing more than K50,000. How do you expect that person to survive together with his children?

Mr Chairman, included to this is the mode of payment to pensioners. Public Service pensioners suffer greatly when they come for their emoluments. Some even die before they get their pensions.

With a ‘New Deal’ Government, I would request the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to find any alternative in which retired people should be paid early. They should not be made to negotiate for their retirement benefits because they have worked for them.

Sir, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning including the leader of the House and also the Government should work out alternative measures for those people who are paying or dealing with the pension scheme for the retired people not to negotiate with retired officers to give them certain emoluments so that their pensions could be processed. This is making the common person suffer for nothing after working for that long.

So, Sir, time has come and there is this Deal Government which should phase out this corruption.

Interruptions.

Mr Situmbeko: Yes, it is a Deal Government because we do not know whether it is a good Government in good or bad riddance. It is up to the people who are going to decide as to which side of this good governance is going to come from this New Deal.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko: Mr Chairman, let as make sure that this Government, from the way it is coming out, is corruption free. Please, let them cut out those corrupt people who are dealing with the pensions of public civil servants. Let them retire so that people are able to get their emoluments as soon as they retire. The Government knows that public servants are given three months to retire. So their pensions should be ready so that when they retire, that money should be given to them immediately instead of staying for ten years without having the pension paid.

Please I plead and, Sir, I thank you.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Chairman, I would like to appeal to the Government to seriously reconsider the amount of money reflected given to the Pensions Fund Board for payment to the retirees. The amount of K58 billion reflected in the Budget is very little and what the pensioners require now, is K160 billion. So, the K58 billion is not even half of that amount of money and the Government should stop with immediate effect from breaking the law - leading by bad example. Why do I say that? The Government itself is supposed to be remmiting money which is part of its commitment according to the law to pay towards the officers’ contribution but the Government has for the past few years been reluctant to pay its share of the contribution and this is why you see a lot of people not having been paid because the amount of money which is supposed to be paid by the Government has been going up to K160 billion now. 

As of now, you require not less than K30 billion to clear the queues which are at the Pensions Board now, but the Government has been year in year out only coming up with figures which are negligible.

Therefore, I would like to appeal to this Government to respect the senior citizens. I know the hon. Minister of Finance himself is a senior citizen but he is a better senior citizen …

Laughter.

Mr Moonde: … so, I would like to appeal to him to ensure that some of this money which is hidden in certain votes is brought forward to paying these pensioners so that this question of pensioners is done away with once and for all. It is pathetic to see a lot of people who have worked for this Government for a long time suffering for years at the Pension House without being paid their dues. So, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, once again, to ensure that that K160 billion which is required there is met at least half or three quarter way. In that way, we will resolve that problem once and for all and to emphasise the fact that this question of with holding money which you were supposed to pay as a way of contribution is illegal and the Government is not supposed to act illegally.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Lungu ( Lundazi): Mr Chairman, I just want to seek clarification as a matter of policy. The conditions of retired civil servants, really, are most pathetic, to say the least. I just want to know whether, when Government decides to increase the salaries of civil servants, consideration will also be given to the salaries of pensioners.

I say this, Mr Chairman, because I retired at the level of permanent secretary. My pension benefits, is not anything to hide. It is about K140,000 per month at permanent secretary level. The people at lower scales, it is pathetic. My father retired in 1964 in the then Bechuanaland government and he gets over 300 pounds pension per month, which is over one million kwacha.

All I am saying, Mr Chairman, is that when there is an increase in the salaries of civil servants still in office, Government should also consider increasing pensioners’ salaries.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs R. C. Banda (Milanzi): Mr Chairman, I have seen that when estimating, especially on recurrent expenditure, the figures are high on the supplements and when you estimate again you go wrong. Is it because you like supplementing later on or is it the tradition? 

If something was supplemented in the last Budget, why can you not erase it so that you do not supplement again?

On pensions, I want to add my word to the hon. Members who spoke before me, Mr Chairman. I know that some of the departments are not debatable here, but this is the only chance when I can say anything. We have our former service chiefs. They are a big embarrassment on the streets. I can give you an example of our first army commander. They are just thrown on to the streets. I am aware that in the Commonwealth, these people are not just thrown anyhow. If you look at the Zambian scenario now, these retired generals and colonels are just thrown everywhere and it is an embarrassing sight. So, I have brought it to this House so that, perhaps, you can look into it. These people did a service to this nation. Even if they have retired, the Government is supposed to see how they are living, but your generals are all over in the streets.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Chairman, this is a very important vote. There are two types of pensions. The pension the Ministry of Finance and National Planning pays to those who have reached the age of 55 years and the pension the Pensions Board pays either to widows or to the estate of the deceased civil servants. The underlining problem on this vote, Mr Chairman, is that the Government is in arrears, as an employer. Every month the employees of the Government have their salaries deducted and sent to the Pensions Board. The employees’ money goes to the Pensions Board, but the problem we are facing in Zambia is that the Government’s share is not going. Instead, the Government is borrowing this particular money to build projects that have no meaning to the welfare of our people. For example, to build conference sites and to host the Organisation of African Unity. The money came from this vote.

Mr Chairman, an estimate of K40 billion is not enough when you owe somebody K170 billion. The Pensions Board is owed K170 billion, to which the Government has not sent their share. This Government is irresponsible.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Mr Chairman, and I also thank you for the cup of tea this afternoon, Sir.

Laughter. 

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, the big mistake on this Vote is by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who draws the Budget. As you are aware, Sir, in the Vote we deferred, you can see that the Presidential Fund, under Purchase of Services at Cabinet Office, spent K107 billion. Yet on the Vote for civil servants, the invisible government of this country, we are giving them only K58 billion, when we owe them K170 billion. You, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, owe the pensioners because they have already contributed, they are owed money. They have done their part. The weakness is on your part. 

I thought, knowing you as I do, you would have seen and corrected this anomaly of not paying people who have worked for you all these years. We owe them K170 billion and this is the Government’s contribution to them. What kind of a Government are you, who cannot pay people who have worked for you? You are prepared to allow a President spend K107 billion to give away to people freely, leaving our own people who carry this Government through thick and thin unpaid!

If you go to the Pensions Board, people are dying there, they are fainting. Mr Chairman, we have judges who have died and their widows cannot have widows’ and children’s pensions and monthly contributions paid. As we are here, Mr Chairman, the President has just retired Permanent Secretaries. Where are we going to get money to pay those who have been retired? Some of them are the ones who were working on this Budget and leaving themselves out by failing to get the Government to pay the Pensions Fund. What kind of a people are we?

Your Honour, do not provoke me. I know you are using Gaddafi’s bed, but it is not right to provoke me.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, let us put ourselves in the position of civil servants. Those who have been retired should not go through the queue. They are senior people. They must jump the queue. 

What about those people who are about five, six or seven years in arrears? The big problem we are facing here is to separate what you owe them which should go and help the Pensions Board from its own investment so that they carry out monthly payments of those who have retired or the estates of their children.

So, I think, Mr Chairman, that this money of K158 billion, K48 billion to arrears and K10 billion as a Grant, is a mockery. If we there is anyway we expect you to come with supplementary expenditure, it is to get the Pensions Board tie up so that we can pay some of our people. In many cases, Mr Chairman, estaste administrators had to be replaced because the first administrator died before he got the money. The second one sometimes may also die because the pipeline at the Pension Board and the Government is too long.

Now, we owe IMF and World Bank money. In fact, 2000 was a Jubilee year and we were supposed to be forgiven our debts. So, why not pay locals debts, the people we owe their money. It does not help you to host OAU and borrow from the Pensions Board. We all know that the money you used for hosting the OAU was borrowed from the Pensions Board.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: So, please, let us pay back quickly. 

We have some pensioners here. They had to stand for elections and …

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … they have won because most us here on this side of the House are pensioners. We asked them to reinforce us against you so that they can come and help the situation. 

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Sibetta: Yes, we have a lot of pensioners.

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes, including the independent Member of Parliament (Mr Kasongo).

Mr Sibetta: Even the Independent Member is a retired permanent secretary.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: The situation is bad.
 
The problem is you, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. You should have seen this anomaly by your Government. You cannot owe other people K170 billion and you decide to just give them K58 billion. Even this is not a Grant. You owe these people money. Pay them!

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya): Mr Chairman, I wish to add my voice to my fellow hon. Members who have spoken before me. 

Sir, my contribution regards young widows who have been trying to get money from the Pensions Board. Sir, as you maybe aware, most of these ladies lose their husbands at a very tender age. Because of the need to get monies that their husbands left, they have ended up getting married to some of the young men or even old men working at the Pensions Board.

Laughter.

Mr Situmbeko: Kwasha mu kwenu!

Miss Sialumba: Mr Chairman, I say so because I have seen these things happen.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Miss Sialumba: Young ladies have gone to the Pensions Board and spent nights there and you know how the economy of our nation has been. They go hungry for many days so it is easy to be enticed by men at the Pensions Board. Marriages have ensued Sir, and children have been born.

Laughter.

Miss Sialumba: Mr Chairman, this is a fact, and I really am sad that we look at this as something we can laugh about. It is a serious matter. I am speaking as a woman, Mr Chairman. Let us give our women the respect that should be accorded to them. Here is a young widow, Mr Chairman, who has just lost her husband and she is forced to end up knowing some man because she needs to be favoured. So, can we please, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning look at this issue and find ways and mechanisms to solve the problem.

Mr Chairman, I wish to use this time to air what I have seen. Most of these young men and women working at the Pensions Board take advantage of women and widowers. They  tell them to ni chekeleko. Give me something before I pull up you file.

Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, through you, Sir, may we please devise a mechanism which will enable us to allow these people get their monies without going through all these things. If they want to have relations with your members at the Pensions Board, let them do it because they want to not because they want a favour. We do not want to have a situation of having all these street children. We have too many on our hands. Let us not abuse these young ladies that have lost their partners let us give them what is due to them on time so that they would be able to look after their children.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalifungwa indicated to contribute.

The Chairman: I will come to hon. Ministers later on.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chaiman, during the general debate on the budget I had said that there are many items which are known as below-the-line and this is one of the items. The arrears in pension fund. It has been a regrettable practice in this House over decades. When the hon. Minister presents the budget – we never seem to know the real numbers of our budget. The below-the-line items are like the arrears like the quasi fiscal debt, hon. Minister. 

I said earlier, that the quasi fiscal debts are arrears and parastatal debts, like the famous ZANACO debt of US$100 million currently due to our pro-poor budget ministered this year. These are the issues that you should put on the table because we do not know the true fiscal position of our country.

Secondly, if you read the newspapers, you see advertisements saying if you as a private sector person have not contributed to the NAPSA, it is an illegal offence and you would end up paying fines. Yet, the Government is at the forefront of taking money from poor civil servants on a monthly basis and then misusing or abusing that money elsewhere and not paying it to the Pensions Fund. 

Mr Chairman, a couple of years ago, in this House a document was laid on the table to deal with mal-practices in the Pensions Fund and again, that was simply ignored. The Pensions Fund has been at the forefront of investing billions of kwacha in commercial banks which had within a mater of months, if not less, been liquidated. There has been tremendous political interference. We want a true categorical picture of our fiscal position, hon. Minister. The hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Kalifungwa and I served on a Committee of Estimates and the Economic Affairs Committee and we received a report, I think it is called the Public Sector Expenditure Review, December, 2001 and the preliminary ones.

Now, I urge all of you hon. Members of Parliament to go to Anglo American Building Ground Floor where there is a World Bank Library. You will find more information about the Public sector Expenditure review on Zambia, the actions by our Government in the past, present and what they intend to do, than you will ever find from the Government because they will not tell us. The day, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning signs a letter of intent, it will be available on the Internet within twenty-four hours, yet you would hardly see the hon. Minister telling this House the true position of the issues that he has agreed and not agreed with. 

So, hon. Minister, we want you to come out clean. We have said it often enough in this House that we hold you in high esteem and you are a man of integrity. We realise that you did not inherit half the coffers as you said the other day. You, in fact, inherited a huge public sector deficit. So, you did not inherit half hon. Minister, you inherited nothing except problems.

So, please, come clean with us. I am not even sure whether the figure of K170 billion outstanding, is a correct figure. If I recall, there was a World Bank study done with the Government of Zambia or Ministry of Finance and National Planning officials that pegged liability/arrears at a cost of almost US$500 million. And that could be the true status. The way we go about doing business in this House, I could say something you may not be able to respond to because the Vice-President would respond. So, this dialogue in away, is for me to express my view and then, maybe,if you find it fit you may come back to me next year and address it. That is not the way, hon. Minister, that we want to conduct business.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Thank you, Mr Chairman, it is a tendency of this august House that you do not repeat what others have already said. But coming from a background of how people suffer in my constituency, I definitely have some few comments and observations to make.

Sir, my main worry is on the criteria used on how people are paid at the Pensions Board, which is uncalled for and very unfortunate.

In my constituency, people whose relatives died in 1995 to 1997 are still queuing up for their relatives’ pensions.

Hon. Government Members: Who died?

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: That is the problem with you people in the Government. You just want to cut someone short and not listen. That is what has cost your friend to lose elections. Maybe there are five more there. Listen to this free advice I am giving you.

Mr Chairman, I was saying that administrators whose relatives died in 1996, and who were managing the estates of the deceased, are still queuing up at the Pensions Board.

I know that most Members of Parliament who are talking now have not been to their constituencies. Simply because they do not know their role as Members of Parliament. So, listen to me a senior man who has been here for the third time.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, we would want this New Deal Government to devise a system of first come first served basis. We are tired of seeing the degree of corruption in that scheme being high in Zambia. Officers there are really corrupt. These are important issues we are talking about.

We would like to see a situation whereby this money we are discussing now is given to the people who were retired some time back. And the people who have been retired this year should come in the Yellow Book of next year so that we do not see a situation whereby people leave Chipangali, Mwense, Shangombo, Kalabo and Chavuma, to come here and spend six months cooking and eating from dirty tins. I have been there. I know that Ministers in the Front Bench do not see how people are suffering. And when I talk, I am talking as an aggrieved person. Each time these people come from wherever they come from, the first person they see is a Member of Parliament at the National Assembly Motel. And they would say, “I have been here for six months, just look at my body”. 

It is very unfortunate to see how people suffer there and yet there is a Government, which is ignoring how people are suffering. So, we would want to see this New Deal Government to show leadership by, ‘First die, first pay’. 

Interruptions.

Mr L. L. Phiri: That is what we want to see.

Mr Chairman, it is very unfortunate that year in and year out we have been seeing, like in my constituency, I have about five families where those who were administrating estates have died and those left behind are being asked to look for other people to confirm whether they are the children of those people who died. Where are they going to get their relatives? People have died because they have been waiting for their pensions for seven years without being paid. Then you want us to come here and approve things, which are not workable. I will not be part and parcel of this. This New Deal wants to take us for granted and make us a rubber stamp. 

Mr Chairman, we have not come here to just to be putting on suits, drink tea and sleep in good rooms at the Motel, but we have come here to work for the people who are suffering and cannot speak for themselves. I am talking like this because I am aggrieved in seeing how people are suffering.

Hon. Government Members: Cry!

Mr L. L. Phiri: What we have been seeing in the past is that only those who have relatives are being paid on time or those who can afford to pay ‘nichekeleko’ are being paid fast, I do not think we are going to agree to approve such a thing.

Mr Chairman, I am a man of few words …

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: … because I know that others have already said this, but I wanted to add the voice of Chipangali. I have more than seventy people who have been here for six months and have not gone back home to cultivate. The question is, ‘ what are they going to eat this year?’ 

For this reason, we would want this New Deal to be factual and realise that they are not herding animals that can be whipped without observing. We want them to be accurate and use criteria that we shall appreciate.

Mr Chairman, under your leadership, you have taught me a lot, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Sir, I, too, I am a man of few words. 

During the tripartite elections, I was witness to a statement from the Government then, the President and his Vice-President, His Honour here now, and other leaders pledging to the Zambians that they would liquidate the debts on pension and gave a time frame of six months within which they would pay the outstanding pension to the people. Would the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in his statement, give a clear-cut programme of how he will pay this pension so that in future, people leaving employment on retirement can get their package on the day they cease to work as used to be the case before.

I want also to find out whether in fact since the change in the management of the Pensions Board, there has been any profit at all. You have a former banker as leader there, also a State House man as chairman. What is the set up now? How has it helped these people? Has it not created more problems than before? 

My plea, Mr Chairman, is that many years ago in 1962, I was still an officer in the Police Force, we were witnesses of conveying pension either in cash or cheques to people who had retired. Even in the villages people were respected when they were told that a boma official or policeman has come to deliver your pension or a sub-accountant has come to deliver your pension. What about this elaborate body which has so many people, why does it still fail to pay Zambians their pension?

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairman, on debating the Pension Scheme, I only feel sorry that as we debate, we have no capacity to change anything. 

There has been so much said here by so many hon. Members of Parliament and it has been said that we cannot increase anything in the Budget, perhaps reduce. But what we are talking about is that the Budget does not meet what is owed to the people. Now, when we go out in the villages, people think that the Members of Parliament do not represent them and do not put across their sufferings at all. Suppose for a change something was said that, after your two and half years of your being in Parliament, you have no gratuity but wait for another five years to get it. What would happen? Or let us say that after five years of being Members of Parliament that gratuity that everyone gets is withheld for another five years,like is the case with the other pensioners. Are we going to stand it. So, the problem is that the people who have been lining up to get their money do not get it. When you go to the bank to borrow they will ask what your liability is. You will first work out what you owe and then you get a positive.

Mr. Chairman, here you have made a budget where you have forgotten what you owe and say that I am not able. I would be very happy to see in six months’ time the hon. Minister of Finance and Planning bringing Supplementary Estimates to cover pensioners. But it is easy to talk about Supplementary Estimates for the Office of the President where you have budgeted K3.9 billion and here there is K25 billion over-expenditure and Supplementary Estimates. Why do we not see it under pension? If you allocate K80 billion, you will pay K80 billion, no Supplementary Estimates.

Mr. Chairman, these are the basic things that we require so that if you are going to talk about Supplementary Estimates, you pay to the actual people suffering but not always purchase of goods, purchase of services and all sorts of things ignoring the people who are suffering. Mr. Chairman, I am making a plea that the next time you bring Supplementary Estimates, it should include pensioners as you promised in your speech hon. Minister.

Mr. Chairman, when you are running a deficit Budget and later you tell us that the Zambia Revenue Authority has collected more than estimated, instead of you covering such items, you go and spend the Supplementary Estimates and the deficit is not even covered. Sir, I would like to implore, in fact, the Minister of Finance and Planning was a former Permanent Secretary, I hope he has not yet got his pension and I think that is why he is back in the system.

Sir, it sometimes worries me to see that the people who prepare these things are Permanent Secretaries and it only dawns on them when they retire or when they are fired, that is when they realise that this thing is very bad. So, Sir, I am appealing to the hon. Minister that since he was Permanent Secretary for the Ministry of Finance, he should understand clearly all these problems and that whenever he decides to bring Supplementary Estimates to this House within the next six months, he should include the dues for pensioners.

I thank you.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr. Pwele (Roan): Mr. Chairman…

Interruptions.

Mr. Pwele: Mr. Chairman, what I beg from the MMD Members of Parliament is seriousness to issues. This is a very serious topic and they should understand that seriousness will build this nation. We are not at a cocktail party here, we are talking about people who are suffering. If they are not careful, since their party is cracking, we shall end up having Ministers who are not Members of the MMD and so they have to be very serious.

Laughter.

Mr. Pwele: President Mwanawasa is a very serious person and if they are not going to be serious, thinking it is Chiluba, they will be mistaken and most of them will be fired.

Laughter.

Mr. Pwele: We are talking about people who are suffering, people who are sleeping at a station for almost seven months waiting for their money. Some of these people think it is a picnic.

Hon. Member: Shame!

Mr. Pwele: There is no picnic here, you have to be serious. We are talking about your brothers and sisters who are sleeping there and suffering. So, Sir, it is even better for us to scrap the position of District Administrators and give the money to the people who are suffering.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Pwele: We are talking about reality here and not just about anything that we do not see. You have seen how people are suffering and you have to be serious. We are not joking here, people are dying leaving their money behind. Now if you joke about such things just because you are in MMD, I think you are not worthy to be an hon. Member of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Pwele: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Order! Hon. Members, when you are given the Floor, please, speak what is at the back of your mind. Playing with words is not helping at all. You are saying that we are dealing with a situation which is pathetic, yes, just give reasons as the lady did by giving an example of a lady who lost her husband but because of the plight she went through ended up marrying one of he officers. Come out with evidence and not just playing with words.

Mr. Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr. Chairman, since this Parliament opened we have been told a lot of beautiful words about transparency, good governance and so on. The document we are debating is one that would tell how transparent that Government intends to be.

Mr. Chairman, you do not need to have ACCA qualifications to understand that other expenditure is the same as miscellaneous and no Director of any company would like to see that an expenditure called miscellaneous carries much more money than the actual line items in the budget.

Mr. Chairman, this budget presented to us, under Personal Emoluments shows an increase from K75 million spent last year under Other Miscellaneous Emoluments. From K75 million to K423 billion. Now, together with that, is this beautiful increase from K20 billion to K80 billion on Public Service Reform Programme. This one, we would assume is the money that is to be spent in the process of reforming the public sector. What one would expect, therefore, is that salaries and emoluments in all other departments will have either a reduction or an increase that will translate also in the increase in the take-home pay of a civil servant.

Mr. Chairman, I would like, through you, to seek guidance from the hon. Minister on whether all these increases we have seen on other emoluments, wages and salaries in all the different Heads will translate in an increase in the take home pay of the people, otherwise, one right from here starts to doubt the level of transparency contained in these figures. Are there things we are hiding or are there things that we would not want the people of Zambia to know about?

Mr. Chairman, I thank you.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr. Chairman, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. In supporting the Vote, I wish to note that for many years now, the Government has had problems in paying pensioners. If we go back to the time when money was borrowed from the Pensions Fund to build Mulungushi Village…

Mr. Sibetta: You also borrowed money to build the collapsing so-called Millennium Village.

Laughter.

Dr Machungwa: … way back. We have found that the Pensions Board has had problems in being able to pay pensioners because the money that was taken there has not been returned.

Interruptions.

Dr Machungwa: Mr. Chairman, it is important to note that we are making a very important provision here. Last year the provisions that were given to pay pensioners were K36 billion. Today’s Budget shows that we have increased that to K48 billion to meet arrears and we have another K10 billion amounting to a total of K58 billion. Now if you compute a percentage, the increase is 62 per cent over what was provided for last year.
Clearly, there is an effort that is being made to address this issue and that must be realised.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Chairman, I would like to respond to some of the important points Members of Parliament have made. One such point made by Hon. Banda was the Supplementary Estimates, how large these were.

Normally, I would not like large sums presented in Supplementary Estimates. Good budgeting would indicate that you really have as little adjustments in the course of the year as possible. But this is ideal. We do not live in the ideal world and things do happen. What is important is the explanation given to hon. Members of Parliament that such explanations must be thorough and honest. That is what is important. Personally, I would not like to come here with a vague idea of what it is that I would like to do to the estimates. I would like to stick to these estimates as much as possible but I should have full candor. If I have to come back and explain and ask Parliament for Supplementary Estimates, it must be on very solid grounds. All Members of Parliament should be able to agree with me why such supplementaries have become necessary.

Mr Chairman, the points which Hon. Sibetta made, making it my personal responsibility about paying pensions is taken note of. I think it is extremely important. The hon. Member for Roan, Mr Pwele, made an important point in a very long-winded way. People are suffering and we cannot belittle that. It is for this reason that in this Budget, I have made considerable provision to try and get back what has been lost in time over the last few years.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: Indeed, as soon as Members of this Parliament have passed this Budget, I will release K40 billion so that the pensions idea can be addressed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: A little later in the year, I will repeat that experience so that, at least, we can make a sizeable impact. 

Sir, I am not only thinking of that. I am thinking about improving the administration of pensions. I do not like people coming from all over the country, staying weeks on end. People should be able to know if they are going to get money or not.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: It should not take too long to make that. For that reason, we have, now, fully computerised the Pensions Fund. So, there should be no need to ask for favours or sexual favours for anybody to attend to them. It is their right and it is our duty to give them their money.

I think it is important that we improve this. But in my future concept, I do not even end there. I would like to decentralise the Fund. If it was possible to do so under colonial government in 1945, why is it not possible today with computerisation and other things at our disposal? It should be possible to try and dencentralise that institution.

Hon. Patel made another important point about the invisible figures in the Budget. To be honest with you, there will always be invisible figures in the Budget. Why? I do not know what losses are being made by parastatal companies today but in the final analysis when all is said and done, the wolf will lie at my door. I do not know what costs KCM may come to. In the final analysis, the wolf will come to my door. I do not know what other parastatal companies are doing today. In the final analysis, the taxpayers, MPs, voters of Zambia, have to pick up the bill.

Hon. Patel is quite right in saying that we do not do things precisely. That is why we call these figures ‘estimates.’ They are not precise figures but the best possible guess we can make of the cost that will befall us in the future.

Hon. L. L. Phiri made important points about orders but I think I have answered that. I have answered Hon. Muntanga’s points as well.

Mr Chairman, I would like to assure the House of one thing. That is transparency and accountability. I will always return to this House with the full story to the best of my knowledge.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Chairman, I wish to also thank all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this Vote.

On the question raised by Hon. Mukwakwa regarding soldiers’ pension, the Government does not have any other special pension for soldiers but they belong to this very pension scheme. However, there have been some delays because like anything else, they too have been affected by non-availability of money. It is hoped that when the hon. Minister releases the K40 billion, some of those who have been waiting in the queue for quite a long time, will be paid. So, we cater for our men in uniform.

Hon. Situmbeko came up with the issue of low pensions. The Government is reviewing pensions following salary increases. So, in future, whenever there are salary increases for Government employees, also pensioners will be taken care of.

The Government has, in the past, not contributed or sent monies to the Pensions Fund but I am glad to say that the Government is, now, current with its pensions payment. The Government does not owe any money, at all, to that institution. We are current.
The issue raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mapatizya about widows getting married to pension office workers is an over-statement. If it has happened in one incidence, it does not mean that it is the order of the day. If the eyes of a widow have attracted those of a young and the two have gone on to talk about serious issues, that is life. It has nothing to do with us. 

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, certainly, it will be first-cum first served from now onwards, when the first K40 billion is released. 

As the hon. Minister said, I can assure Hon. Mtonga that the Government will pledge that these payments are paid within a very short time, once we are current. The hon. Minister has stated that he has K80 billion this year but I think, should we make some money elsewhere, it is our intention that it goes to the pensioners. We hate to see our people queuing.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Luanshya believed that the MMD Ministers or Members of Parliament do not have relations that are due for pensions. No. We also are in the same boat. We also have people here who just have to queue like those relatives for the hon. Members on the other side. So, I think that statement was not correct. It is very misleading. The seriousness is here. That is how Government is run. We are the ones who are looking after your constituencies, making sure that we satisfy our people. It is not only you who have relations in Luanshya, I also have. Everybody else here has.

So, championing these courses will not help us at all. We are just as affected as you may be.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 27/01 – (Public Service Management Division –Office of the President – Administration - K140,664,543,378).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, may I have a clarification on the increase on sub-head 1, item 03 - Other Emoluments – from K75,000,000 to K423,958,860. What constitute that increase?

Thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: The provision is required to cater for payments of other allowances not catered for by these briefs.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: The hon. Opposition Members are saying no, so you want this to fall away so that people are not paid.

Hon. Opposition Members: We are not saying that.

The Chairman: That is what you are saying and that is the meaning.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Please, understand that you are on the radio. You have been heard by your electorate that you do not want them to get this money.

Laughter.

The Chairman: These are emoluments in form of allowances and many other things. Now, what do you want me to do? Let me explain further.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: We will be wasting a lot of time if we are not prepared to listen. We are dealing with a Budget. When we started, I told you that this is a constitutional matter. Now, if you want, I can suspend business and go to the full House. Then, Mr Speaker is going to put the question on this one and you declare a division. Now, for you to win, you have to get two thirds majority.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: I am explaining to you so that you understand and know exactly what we are doing. Hon. Opposition Members are 81, and that is assuming everybody in the Opposition will go to the left. Assuming everybody to the right will go to the right, the Opposition will not make two thirds.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Will you, please, keep quiet.

You will not meet the two thirds majority. You need to have 106 votes of this House to make two thirds. So, do you want me to throw this to the full House? We do not expect this anywhere in the Commonwealth when we are dealing with emoluments for the people. The breakdown has already been give by His Honour the Vice-President.

I put the question once more.

Laughter.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): My name is Haakaloba. I am not Kalolo.

The Chairman: What is your problem?

Mr Haakaloba: The problem, Sir, is the name. My name is Haakaloba.

The Chairman: What is your clarification?

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Chairman, I just wanted a point of clarification. On poverty reduction, …

Hon. Member: We have not reached that point.

Mr Haakaloba: I know we have not reached that point. But, this is the only chance for me to ask. So, could you remember me when we reach that point.

Laughter.

Mr Haakaloba: I have been standing here wanting to contribute, but I have been ignored continuously.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you for according me the opportunity. Sir, I just wish to seek clarification from the Chair pertaining to the law on the approval of Estimates and Expenditure. You have been alluding to the fact that the law does not provide for the simple majority in such a situation and you are quoting the Constitution. May I be advised on the constitutional provision that relates to the Budget so that I can go through the same.

Dr Sondashi: Read the Zambian Constitution.

Mr Mwiimbu: I know that Hon. Sondashi has never been an authority on law. So, he cannot guide me.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi: I am a Senior Lawyer.

Laughter.

The Chairman: We are dealing with individual items. The two of you have not referred to any of these. Now, we are on Recurrent Departmental Charges. I expect the two of you to pin point areas of clarification but you have not done so.

Mr Haakaloba: Thank you for remembering me. At the time I was being interjected, Sir, even people who have no constituencies were shouting me down, which is a pity.

Laughter

Mr Haakaloba: I know that hon. Nominated Members of Parliament are equal to myself, but I have people who are going to query me when I get back.

I do not think or do you that the amount of K1 billion allocated to poverty reduction is sufficient. I know that most of these pensioners who are languishing and have been living in Dennis Liwewe’s house for …

The Chairman: Order! My dear colleagues, when I explain something, please, understand. If you do not understand, you can follow me wherever I am and ask me many questions. I do not want to repeat the same thing over and again. I said that when we debate the Estimates of one particular ministry or institution, that is the time you should raise as many questions as you can. The hon. Minister responsible for that will take notes. And then in his reply, he will come and answer your query. 

Now when we slide into individual items, you can only ask for clarification. No debate involved at all. No debate involved. You just ask for clarification. 

Now your query is over poverty reduction, and under this, you have only one thing, that is, 003 – Future Research (PRP) – K1,000,000,000, that is, what you can ask. But you have not asked for that, therefore, I am rescinding.

Vote 27/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/05 – (Public Service Management Division – Office of the President – Technical Services – K142,792,696,108).

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairman, I am a bit concerned. I want clarification from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning or the Vice-President. While the New Deal is very hard, …

The Chairman: What is your clarification?

Mr Muntanga: … I have noted departments that were not existing last year. Is this a new arrangement? 

Hon. Government Members: Which item?

Mr Muntanga: I am referring to the item Office of the President – Technical Services. The same on your reading, there was no budget allocation last year. Is it a new department altogether? Or why was it not there last year?

The Vice-President: Yes, he is very right. These are new departments after the re-alignment of Government services.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 09/01 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K750,259,873).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I thank the House for their support.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10/01 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Office of the President – K853,202,741).

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. 

Mr Chairman, I think on the Ministry of Home Affairs, Police, it is a foregone conclusion that what the police are involved in is a noble duty to this country. We have to look at ways and means of remunerating them well for the job they are doing. I wish we could come up with a plan that can protect their lives, a plan where we can find at least inducement allowances that will allow them to do their work corruption free because, at the moment, what is happening is that if you look at the remuneration for the police, it is very low. And we are, in other words, telling them that you have to look at means and ways in which you can survive. 

Dr. Sondashi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Dr. Sondashi: What we are debating is Police and Prisons Service Commission. Is the hon. Member in order to discuss a wrong vote because he is a learner? Is he in order to discuss a wrong vote instead of discussing the vote which is here and yet when we tell them, they start shouting at us?

Laughter.

The Chairman: Hon. Member, you are put on the right path.

Will you, please, continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, what I was looking at is the Police and Public Service Commission. This is actually the service that recommends and looks after the services and conditions of the Police Force. And I think I am much in order to talk on this subject.

e should look at improving the conditions of service of the police force to make it very professional and effective in combating crime in this country. That is the best we can do for our officers, you see. They work under very difficult conditions. You find that officers go to combat crime without bullet proof vests, where by they put their live on the line for the people of Zambia. I think it is only fair for the people of Zambia to also say thank you to them for protecting their lives and even making them more effective and efficient in future to look after our lives by taking into consideration that the conditions in which they are working in are not good. And with that I hope His Honour, and the Minister of Finance and National Planning will really in future look at monies especially we have got a Vote for DAs which has been hidden. We can maybe siphon from that Vote and put it at the service of the Police and Prison Service Commission to look at the welfare of our police 

I thank you.

Miss Nawakwi: Thank you, Mr Chairman. In contributing to this Vote, and in supporting it, I wish to urge the hon Minister of Home Affairs to work closely with our leader of the House to look at the plight of the young men and women who have lost their jobs in the process of the tripartite elections.

A lot of young men whose wives or husbands, happened to belong to parties other than those being served by the high command were searched and upon finding them with regalia from some other parties, they were dismissed from employment. They are only surviving on a basis of an injunction. So, they are still in their homes at the grace of the Judiciary.

Mr Chairman, The young men and women in the service are Zambians. They are married to men and women who have a free will to belong to a party of their choice. This notwithstanding, Sir, that the people in the Service need to be non-partisan. That non-partisan clause does not extend to the immediate members of their families. I do not see any justifiable reason why the men and women in the service of the police and the police force in this country have had to suffer the indignities of the being fired from employment because of the parties where the members of their families belong. We saw men and women in Kabwata during the elections who were fired from employment.

Hon Opposition Member: Tell them.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr chairman, if you go to where these young men and women spend their life and live in places like Sikanze Camp, Peter Singongo Camp, we should be the first ones to sympathise with them and not only to allow them be humiliated by the police command. I do not believe that there is a justifiable reason why these men whose wives or husbands were found with chitenges from UPND needed to be fired. Iam pleading with the Leader of the House, in the spirit of togetherness, Please, give them a relief, let them work as normal members of this society.

If these men are suffering these indignities, it is clear, therefore, that the Police and Prisons Service Commission is not home for grievances to these men and women in the Service. We need a police and prisons commission which is friendly to the men and women in the Service. It appears to some of us that the people in the Police Service have nowhere to go and complain other than just leave and go and join a private security company, other than to go and live and be on the street. 

Mr Chairman, then Police and Prison Service Commission is like a parent. It is a place where the rank and file go to file in their complaints either for conditions of service or inhuman treatment in the Service. As the previous speaker has said, the Zambia Police Force is full of professionals. If we can give them a little bit of support, we will be so proud. But we have a situation where even for their risk allowance, Sir, they only get K1,500.00 per month, a paltry fee per day of K50.00. And I think that if you look at the work that these young men and women do, It is important that we pay attention. I was very pleased to see president Mwanawasa go to Sikanze Camp. I hope it will not end there. This is the only country where the army live in compounds. This is the only country where we are living with the police next door in Kalikiliki. This is the only country where we not proud enough to offer our men in the Service the dignity that the Service requires.

Hon Minister of Finance and National Planning, following on your very clear direction that you want to provide houses for teachers, we need accommodation for the men in the Service. Not only the police, but we need the people in uniform, in the army to go back to their respective places. I always wonder … 

Interjection.

Miss Nawakwi: Hon Machungwa, you are one of those hon Members of Parliament who actually contributed to the destruction of the Police Service.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machungwa:On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Machungwa: Mr Chairman, is the hon Member of Parliament for Munali who is debating well today for a change and less emotional as usual in order to blame Hon Dr Machungwa as having contributed to the destruction of the police when, in fact, when she was Minister of Finance and Economic Development, she gave very little money to the police, even when we complained to her? Is she in order to debate like that now that she is on the other side?

Hon Opposition Members: Shame, shame.

The Chairman: The two of you were in the former cabinet, and I would suggest that when you go out you sort out yourselves outside.

Laughter.

The Chairman: Will you, please, continue.

Miss Nawakwi: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would like to indicate that when I was ambushed at Northmead, and asked for help, I am aware that Hon Machungwa said there is a woman making noise. I could have been gunned down at Northmead. 

Mr Chairman, when I was Minister of Finance and Economic Development, I am proud to say I visited Sikanze Camp. When I was Minister of Finance and Economic Development, I brought it to the attention of the international community that the Zambia Police Force needed help, just like the ministry and the Government departments needed help. I said to them that when they were complaining about Teddy Nondo as being a torturer, I said the nature of policing in Zambia, having no tools, does not allow for a friendly force. 

In the developed world where you had a scene of crime, the Police Force have tools and facilities. In Zambia, Sir, if you had an accident, all you need is to tell the policeman when asked, 'nanga wenze wamuona' and depending on your answer - I am sorry, meaning, 'did you see the victim?' Depending on your answer, you are either arrested or not. And I brought it to the attention of the international community that the Zambian Police Service needed re-equipping and that was the origin of the good governance document That the former Minister of Finance, including Dr Kalumba, sat on. The Police Force would have been equipped with the modern gauges and they would have had equipment and a lot of money to do that.

The Chairman: Order! Hon. Member for Munali, please, be kind enough to Dr Kalumba. He is not here to defend himself and it is futile for us to begin opening up quarrels of the past. You just concentrate on what must be done today and tomorrow. Will you please, continue.

Miss Nawakwi: Thank you Sir. The hon. Member for some constituency should refer to copiers notes that if we are going to support our Police Service, it cannot just go by lip service. We need to put money in the Police Service and it starts by having professional men and women in the Police and Prison Service. The head-hunters need to know who they are hunting for. If you are a Commissioner and you are responsible for people’s lives, you need to be sympathetic.

Mr Chairman, in summarizing my contribution, I am saying that the Police and Service Commission should look into the plight of young men and women who seem to have lost their jobs not because of their own free will but because of members of their families who belong to different parties. We also need to look at the conditions of service of the people at the Service Commission and also need to professionalise the service. It is not a place where you can just put any retired person. You need professionals so that we have head-hunters who know what to hunt. 

We look forward to a day when our Inspector-General will be appointed by the Police and Prisons Commission.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa (Kabushi): Mr Chairman, I wish to contribute to this very important subject. The situation in the police is pathetic to say the least and I think we should come up with some solutions to this without paying …

Mr Sikota: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. I have before me the Constitution of Zambia and the Standing Orders and I have perused them and there is no provision, which states that we require two thirds figure in order to amend any financial provision and I would ask for the Chair to give us a serious ruling on it.

The Chairman: Order! You are a Lawyer and you interpret the law. When you go to court you will find that some of the things you say in court can not be found in writing…

Laughter.

The Chairman: … wait a minute. But you interpret the law and what I am saying here is that Budget in its entity is a component of the Constitution. Anyway, you are not supposed to raise a point of that nature in this fashion. If you want, you can come and see me.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: Wait a minute, you do not raise points of order to the Chair. The problem here is that I am trying to explain the procedures as they obtain in all Commonwealth Parliaments. Now, if you disagree with me on certain rulings, you are free to come and see me so that we can debate or you can move a Motion and then that can be debated. I am here to tell you what is obtaining in this House and that is the procedure. If you disagree that the Budget is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, then we can discuss as there are lawyers on both sides or we can form  another forum. Will the hon. Member who is speaking please, continue.

Mr Nzowa: … I was just saying the situation in the police is pathetic to say the least. Our men and women in uniform have been dehumanized. Right now, there is no one who is proud to be a police officer. People are rushing to join the police service because there are no jobs. The situation is that these men and women in uniform have been neglected for a long time and sometimes I even get worried when I see my own Vice-President coming to Ndola where frustrated and hungry policemen have been lined up for hours on the road then when you pass through smiling, you think that is security. It is not secure, you are risking. 

The best thing is to motivate those young men and women in the police force. We want to protect you and the President, but as it is now, you are not protected because those people even when you are coming at 1600, they are told to line up at 0600 AM,  without being allowed to go to their homes or given any money for lunch because in the police service now, there is no such a thing as claiming an allowance.

The policemen have been reduced to beggars or mere pauppers. Right now, because their take home pay is not even enough, how they survive is by setting up road-blocks and we do not want these road blocks every after one kilometre. We want a police force that is going to work professionally. The situation right now Sir, - I know the one who is raising a point of order is a former Home Affairs Minister. The situation in the police camps has degenerated to the situation where they do not have the basic social needs. It is for this reason Sir, …

The Chairman: Order! We will come to debate the Ministry of Home Affairs later on. At the moment, we are debating the Police and Prisons Commission. Will you please, continue.

Mr Nzowa: … Mr Chairman, a lot of people have mentioned some of the things I have mentioned and I do not know why they are feeling guilty. According to the book that I have here, I think what I want to say is that if we are going to nature this democracy and if it is going to work, we need a professional police service and for this, what we are saying is that this Police and Prisons Commission should do its work. Therefore, I am urging the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to include among other things in the next development plan that we might start from June or July as informed in the House to include the Prisons and Police Service.

The men and women in uniform would like to know what the Government has for them. My constituency has one of the biggest police camps and they want to know in the three-year plan that you have already sold to the nation. What it is and what component is going to address the difficulties that is going to address the problems that men and women in uniform are experiencing.

Mt Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Chairman, I would also like to say a few things on Police and Prisons Service Commission. First of all, this Commission does not seem to go round the country. We learn from the members on the spot on what their problems are and it is very important that the Police and Prisons Service Commission are afforded every opportunity to make them mobile and go to different places just like the Teaching Service and Public Service Commissions so that they can have discussions, exchange ideas and views with the members on the spot. 

As it is now, policemen, prison officers all over the country look like destitutes because they appear not to be cared for. In certain cases, elections are monitored by two cadets, scouts and we do not know whether there is insufficient police in terms of numbers because elections which are being monitored by school cadets and scouts, really you cannot trust these people.

I would like to urge this Government to allow the Police and Prisons Service Commission to form trade unions so that they can speak for themselves. 

Interruptions.

Mr Moonde: If you do not know these things, keep quiet because our neighbours in South Africa, have a union and they are working very well. So, do not just laugh for the sake of it because you do not know what you are talking about. You may not allow, maybe, the army, to form a union, but there is nothing wrong in allowing the Police and Prisons Service Commission to form a trade union. Only those who are scared of certain things can say no to that good idea.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mtonga: Mr Chairman, I am one of the few privileged policemen who have served as Chairman of the Police and Prisons Service Commission as well, besides the office of the Inspector-General.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga: I also served as Commissioner, Special Duties, and gave this country the secrets that some other leader decided to reveal. Only two weeks ago, the American Government was pushed into explaining why the Government expenditure was reaching certain levels, when the activities seemed normal. The President of that country had to explain and said, ‘since September 11th, 2001, there was a parallel government up to this point in time in the United States working underground’. Imagine, a whole Government working underground. In this country you decided to reveal those secrets when you only have a Cabinet room, shame!

Sir, I am grateful you have given me permission to say something about the Police and Prisons Service Commission. This commission is a supervisory body of the Police Service, but at the moment, there seems to be a lot of trouble because I do not think that even in the so-called Reform Programme of the Police Force they are involved. The Reform Programme, which should have been initiated and, perhaps, approved by them and then supervised for results with benchmarks, this is absent. I hope the hon. Minister of Home Affairs who, initially, was not present in the House, is now going to try and check.  Where is this Police Reform Programme? There is supposed to be a legislative support programme and as a retired man, I have been looking forward to seeing any of those consequential legislative programmes that, for example, would re-name the Police Force into a Police Service. It is absent. The Constitution of Zambia, the supreme law, still refers  to the Police of Zambia as a Police Force, not a Police Service.

The Police and Prisons Service Commission has suffered and failed the test, particularly when this country was going through the multi-party elections. A lot of policemen were arbitrarily transferred, some of whom came to me and asked for advice on what to do, as one of them. I told them to appeal to the Police and Prisons Service Commission, yet there is nothing there. There is no recipe, no support for officers transferred arbitrarily. 

The dress system of the Police Force is helter sketter. You go to any traffic point now, you find some in combat, the pin stripe, others in khakis. Even the caps differ, some are in berets, others are in white caps and some more are in black ones. This is at the same road-block. One thing clearly noticeable, Mr Chairman, is that the Police Service is not being helped through the supervising body to insist that no road-block in this country can be set up if an officer below the rank of sub-inspector is not present. But we have reservists, anybody who decides to put up a road-block now just goes and puts up a road-block, no supervision.

Mr Sibetta: Mwamvela ma point?

Mr Mtonga: I wish to also appeal to the hon. Minister to look clearly and examine the so-called Police Reform Programme. This programme should have been married to what has been going on in the past, but I think it is totally divorced and no precedents have been followed in terms of what to do. Please, if it is possible, Mr Chairman, can we look at that document. Perhaps, select committees can help them and advise so that this Police Force can have its luster restored. One of the things is that we have not had a transitional office for the Police Force for a long time. In the past it is the office I opened, under the leadership of that able and dedicated Zambian, Fabian Chella. He is the one who insisted we should open a Public Relations Office. One of the functions was to constitute a transition office so that policemen are prepared for their retirement, they know where to look for jobs, what to, actually, look out for. For now, all they do is offload them on the streets. 

It is shameful to the children that should be admiring their fathers and mothers so that they can join the Police Force. They instead despise the Police Force and ask, ‘Daddy, how did you ever join such a rotten body. See how you are suffering! I cannot join your organisation’.  That is not good to the growth of the Police Force. You need to re-examine the Reform Programme and make sure it is supported by the law and make sure it answers specific needs of the police, including the uniform, its classification and so on.

Finally, Sir, we heard that there would be an increase of policemen per year and numbers were given, yet some of these men, some of whom were trained in a hurry, are sleeping at the abandoned Carousel Shopping Centre, there are no houses. They passed out but they are sleeping all over, some are at Tickley’s garage in  town. How then can you have good policemen? 

Like what the hon. Member for Munali has mentioned, I last effected the risk allowance in 1984 and at that time, K1,000 was money. At least, it was still around the range of K8 officially to the dollar. Now, no one has revised that. How can you maintain it at the same level, particularly for those that guard our President? Your Honour, you better run on this one because we do not want anything to happen to our new President. Those men who claim this K1,000 are supposed to be bodyguards, in short, to put their bodies in front of him when bullets come. But for K1,000, how can he do that? Let alone, there is no insurance cover for all these men that work for the President in high-risk areas..

I would beg that the Vice-President assists the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, get an insurance organisation to insure all policemen so that if they die in the course of duty, they are paid adequate money, if necessary, dollarised.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

It is certainly a pity that any one would want to dismiss a spouse of a policeman because the spouses have different political inclinations from their husbands, in this case, assuming their husbands are the police officers. It is something that we would like to investigate because I do not think that this happened. If it did, I know the hon. Member of Parliament who brought this up. He went on recruiting housewives to support your efforts. So, in the process the husbands got angry as matters are. So, in future do not cause other people to lose their employment without you providing alternative employment opportunities. It is a matter, Mr Chairman, that would be investigated.

It is also the wish of the Government to have a non partisan Police Service. I would be wrong if our police officers start taking political positions openly because what happens if a police officer is inclined only to supporting your party and other party’s cadres are in trouble, they might just leave them there because they do not belong to their party. So, we encourage our officers not to take partisan positions at all.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Chawama and former Inspector-General of Police for …

Mr Mtonga: Kanyama!

The Vice-President: I am sorry, Kanyama.

And former Inspector-General of Police, obviously speaks like the Inspector-General, Commissioner of Police, Chairman of Public Service Commission, certainly, he speaks with a lot of experience and we thank him for that. That is why the Zambian people trained him to be in those positions so that he could perform.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: So, we are happy to benefit from your experience. It is very difficult for my hon. Colleagues and I who have not been in the Police Force to know that if you come to a roadblock and you find people in different uniforms, that is wrong. For us, we believe that, maybe, you have one paramilitary and one from traffic and so on. 

Laughter.

The Vice-President: I am sure that the whole House has lent something to night. Sir, as regards the arbitrary transfers, I think this is something that the Police and Prisons Commission should look at. It is nice to prepare people well if you are going to transfer them so that they take care of their school children and make proper arrangements. So, Inspector-General of Police, we thank you for your experience.

Sir, I am aware that it is Government’s intention and indeed, the wish of every Zambian to see that our men in uniform are well catered for regarding accommodation. The idea of police officers staying in compounds is not something that we would wish to encourage. But, I recall that when the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali was with us here, my predecessor stood up and defended the very reason why it was important for police officers to be all over. 

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Yes, it is in the Hansard for the past Vice-President who, himself, is a man from uniform. He gave us very convincing reasons why the police and the army people had to be scattered all over and you were with me here. You know what I am talking about. The Government is happy  to review this situation. 

When I was growing up on the Copperbelt, we had special places for police officers. We used to call them Kambas. The Kambas worked very well but at the time of independence it was seen not to be a good idea at all. These policemen and women belonged to the community. So, they were sent into the communities and these are very convincing reasons as I said. 

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Well who am I to argue with the professional Inspector-General of Police if he is telling us the truth. What we can do is to learn from you. Certainly, on the risk allowance, I think K1000 would be too little to die for. I wish that my colleague the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has taken that into account.

Sir, I must say that in the Second Republic, if you remember correctly, policemen were walking without boots, they had those patapatas. It is only when the MMD Government came into power did we start providing uniforms for our police officers. 

Interruptions.

The Vice President: Yes!

Hon. Opposition Members: You were there.

The Vice-President: As a policeman.

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, in the Government.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: I think the idea of insuring policemen is a good one. They have got families to look after. So, we are very thankful to the former Inspector-General of Police that it is important that everyone, including hon. Members of Parliament are insured because these things are bound to happen any time and therefore, the family and children will  need to be looked after. 

My friend hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi, of course, debated  a different Vote. These things are expected in the beginning.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: As you stay longer here, you will know the differences. These are mistakes that we all made in the beginning. So, we forgive you, but I think that you should debate again when the Ministry of Home Affairs Vote is being debated because you have very good points and you grew up in Kamba. So, you know that big Kamba in your constituency does need to be refurbished.

Mr Chairman, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Volume!

Mr Muntanga: I would like some clarification on ‘Other Emoluments’, Mr Chairman, I just wanted to know why …

The Chairman: I explained about these emoluments. The money that is going to be paid to people. What clarification do you want? Here are salaries, wages and other emoluments. What clarifications are you looking for, honestly? I explained this. Am I going to keep on explaining the same things over and over again, well carry on.

VOTE  10/01 – (Office of the President – Police and Prisons Service Commission – K853,202,741)

Mr Mutanga (Kalomo): May I know from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning why all of a sudden, Other Emoluments changed from K44 million, last year, to only K1,800 million when there is need for this commission to travel. This is the only one which has dropped so drastically.

Mr Chairman: But this is what they are supposed to bring in the policy debate, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I will take the opportunity to answer him on other emoluments because many hon. Members have asked about it, and, in particular, I will answer the question of a reduction. When there is retrenchment and we provide for it for that year, this is what we mean by activity-based budget. If we are not going to retrench, indeed, we are going to recruit more people, then we do not reduce the Vote at all. But, when we retrench, we have to pay those people that have been retrenched. So, that is normally where you find things like this. Retrenchment payments cannot be listed under wages and salaries. These are some of the other emoluments, overtime and things like that. That is what comes in under this other emoluments.

I thank you, Chairman.

Vote ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 12/01 - (Office of the President – Commission for Investigations – K701,062,047)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank all hon. Members for giving this Vote their unanimous support.

Vote ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

VOTE 12/01 – (Commission for Investigations – Office of the President – K701,062,047)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, Sir, I wish to thank the House for their support.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 12/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Headquarters – K35,901,205,720).

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairman, Sir, I am humbled by the opportunity that you have given to contribute to this important Vote. 

First of all, when you are talking about water, you are talking about the life of an individual. And I would like to commend our officers who are responsible for this activity and who are trying their level best under difficult circumstances to provide clean water to our people, not only in town, but also in rural places. But they are handicapped in one way or another. The equipment that they are using to sink boreholes is obsolete. Therefore, hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development should influence his counterpart so that the Water Affairs Department is sufficiently funded.

In fact, we would like to see a situation where the provincial leadership who will be given this equipment so that whenever they draw up a programme to sink boreholes in their respective provinces, they will not look to the centre. The current arrangement is that, if, for example, in Southern Province we would like to sink boreholes, the Provincial Water Engineer is going to write to the headquarters to request for equipment to go to Southern Province to sink boreholes. This is very costly on the part of the ministry. It is important that the department is sufficiently funded so that each province will be responsible for its own equipment. 

Not only that, Mr Chairman, talking about the energy sector with emphasis on electricity, I am glad that His Excellency the President made it known to the general public, that we would like to ensure that between now and, maybe, the year 2006, 50 per cent of our Zambians will access electricity. And he did mention that as of now, only 20 per cent of our population has access to electricity. But we would like to ensure that between now and the year 2006, 50 per cent of our population will access electricity.

Yes, this pronouncement is very brilliant, but I see one handicap and that is, the Government itself, which is supposed to lead by practical example, owes ZESCO a lot of money.

I would like to submit, Mr Chairman, that if this vision is going to be translated into action, Government must pay back the money that it owes ZESCO. And that they should be current in their payment.

Not only that, Mr Chairman, you are aware that the moment you submit an application to apply for that facility, all the conditions are set out in the same contract that you are going to sign with ZESCO. And if, for example, you fail to honour that kind of contract, you should allow sanctions for penalty to be applied by ZESCO. 

What is happening now is the opposite. A number of our people are failing to honour that contract. They owe ZESCO a lot of money. And when ZESCO embarks upon that operation of cutting off power, we politicians are the first to stand up and say, do not do that. And yet they have signed a contract with that client. The day I am looking for that facility I should be able to pay for the same. The moment I fail to honour that contract, I should accept consequences. 

But as of now, the Government is on the defence, defending people who are paralysing the operations of ZESCO but on the other hand you are saying that you should deliver and so on. How do you expect ZESCO to buy new vehicles, buy equipment in order for them to provide this service to the people in a very efficient manner? These are double standards. People must be able to pay for this facility. The moment they default they should accept consequences.

 It is not a simple thing, Mr Chairman, for ZESCO to provide electricity to each and every household without raising the revenue that they are looking for. Unless you are saying that the Government is going to continue to subsidise ZESCO. You are looking for efficient delivery of the same service, but at the same time, when all these officers move out in all the communities to collect revenues you say, ‘Stop, do not do it’, and so on because it is a political scandal and so on. These are double standards, which should not be entertained.

Mr. Chairman, Kariba North Bank is doing a commendable job but when you look at the equipment that they are using, it is obsolete but you expect them to provide an efficient service to the people. How are they going to achieve that? So, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development to ensure that his colleague from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning funds this organisation sufficiently.

You may make pronouncements but no matter how brilliant these pronouncements may be, if they cannot be translated into action, they will remain empty promises and people are not looking for empty promises. They would like to see results within a short time.

Mr. Chairman, there is another organisation which you are aware of and this is the Zambezi River Authority. Our colleagues on the other side are ahead of us in terms of funding. But, Sir, on our side, we are always in red and so on and this is embarrassing on the part of our Government. Even in the contract, you see Zimbabwe will honour this obligation and we should be seen to be doing the same. It is embarrassing, for example, for the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development to stand up and make that passionate appeal when they are meeting to say, yes, we have failed to honour this obligation but that we are doing something about it. That kind of language is acceptable locally but not at international level. Let us honour our obligation to the Zambezi River Authority, otherwise we shall end up embarrassing our Government.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you.

Mr. Liato (Kaoma): Mr. Chairman, I thank you very much for giving this opportunity to speak on the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I have a background of having worked at ZESCO and so, I understand ZESCO to a fairly good extent. Mr. Chairman, I would like to start by asking the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development to give a direction in as far as rural electrification is concerned. Right now, I think most of Zambia is connected to the national grid except for two provinces, Western Province and North-Western Province and I think some parts of Eastern Province.

Mr. Chairman, there is no good reason that in this modern time and age, some areas should suffer the consequences of not having the connection to the national grid. Kaoma, for example, which is a constituency I represent, has had no power in the last two weeks except two days ago when the Deputy Minister for Energy tried to intervene and took some fuel to Kaoma because the system runs on generators to produce electricity. And so we had a situation in my constituency where bodies at the mortuary were decomposing and the businessmen were losing business. I do not want to go into questions why ZESCO did not have the money to provide fuel in my constituency, but I would like to say that it is not right that we should subject people of these constituencies to thermal power when constituencies which lie beyond them have power connected to the national grid.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to request that the upgrading which is necessary to get power moving from the Victoria Falls, and I think this should be done somewhere at Kazungula, let there be political will to get this programme done so that this side of the country is also connected to the national grid. I want to further say that ZESCO itself has carried some projects in areas like Luapula, I am aware where ZESCO has paid colossal sums of money to carry out these projects. I think they have taken that risk. There is no good reason that in one country you can take the risk to take electricity to one side of the country and not to the other. I want to implore them to take the risk they have taken on one side to the other side of the country, to Chama, Kabompo, Kasempa and Kaoma.

Mr. Chairman, this can be done but what is lacking is the political will to get this business done. I would also like to go further and say something about the Auditor-General’s Report. The past report has been very bad. When one reads that report they get a very different impression from what was created three years ago. I would wish to ask that for purposes of the future, let there be checks and balances at ZESCO so that we do not repeat the difficulties that we passed through in the past. I am saying this in good faith because ZESCO to me is a second home. I never worked anywhere before other than ZESCO and I would like to see that company grow. We should also be able to check the management at ZESCO so that what was reported in the Auditor-General’s Report should not be repeated.

Mr. Chairman, I want to take this opportunity to also ask. I know that there has been a lot of political interference at ZESCO but in this New Deal Administration, I will expect that the circumstances will change and the administration will change to suit the New Deal philosophy, otherwise, we will be going in a vicious circle where we allow a lot of misdeeds happening at parastatal level. I wish to take this opportunity to say that for me, I will, Sir, on behalf of the Kaoma people continue to press and push until Kaoma is connected to the national grid.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, if in this Vote, there is money allocated for that purpose because this has been a long  standing problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr. Sichilima (Mbala): Mr. Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very important Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to bring to the attention of this House that Mbala, is one of the oldest towns that has been generating electricity and yet Mbala has no street lights. We have our own hydropower despite being connected to Kariba. Sir, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to check on the operations of ZESCO because I do not want my Government to be embarrassed over the inefficiency of ZESCO. I am glad that we have an energetic Minister who will make ZESCO wake up.

Mr. Chairman, on ZESCO again, I would like to say that there is some equipment which we rush to buy through ZESCO because of foreign recommendations or through the ozone friendly or whatever terminology they may use. Sir, in Mbala, there are some transformers which have been working even before I was born and they are still there. But what is happening now is that when they want to get some money from some country, they come up and say, they would like to change some transformers. After changing the transformers, few weeks later they are blown off. I would like to inform the hon. Minister that we are just being used as a dumping ground for some equipment. Our engineers need to put their heads together and come up with one issue. Once you generate power, you cannot store it.

Mr. L. L. Phiri: Ni primary school science iyo.

Mr. Sichilima: It is just generated and wasted and so, we need to utilise it to 

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the hon. Members who have debated this vote.

extend it to rural electrification so that the power is used other than being wasted.

Mr Chairman, agriculture can benefit a lot, especially in Mbala.

I thank you, Sir

Mr L. L. Phiri: You have said nothing!

Laughter.

Mr Shemena (Solwezi West): Mr Chairman, I would like to concur with the Member who remarked that the two provinces do not enjoy the facility despite North-Western being the source of the Zambezi River and Western Province.

Mr Chairman, I know that it has taken years, people in Government do not realise that these two provinces have teachers and medical officers who would want to buy fridges and other electrical appliances.

Mr Chairman, I also want to mention that we have a technology at the University of Zambia, which is not used. In North-Western and Western provinces, we have perennial rivers. In these rivers, we can have mini-hydro-electric power since we do not need the big grid for industries that we do not have. Why does the Government not invest in the University of Zambia in order for Zambians to have mini hydro-electric stations on these rivers that we have?

Mr Chairman, we have the missionaries that have tried this project and are working very well. Why should the Government continue spending a lot of money on diesel on thermo-electricity power that is in almost seven districts in North-Western Province? After spending a lot money on diesel, the Government does not even pay for the services.

Sir, if the Government does not have money to connect the two provinces to the national grid, it is fair that the money is sourced and be given to the University of Zambia who have the know-how. In my constituency, we have Mutanda Mission which has electricity out of a very small river. That is the electricity that we need. It is just fair that we are recognised as people that would want to live like real Zambians.

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Chairman, I want to lay my weight also on the call for a clear capital policy on rural electrification. Other countries like Malawi which have a very successful electrification programme have done it.

Interruptions.

Mr Mwale: If you cannot understand my English, I am sorry but I offer night school classes. Come over to my room.

Laughter.

Mr Mwale: The economic benefit that this Rural Electrification Programme has done is immense and I think we can learn from them. I am particularly standing up to talk about water boreholes and National Water and Sanitation Council, with particular reference to the formation of water utility companies in the councils. Much as this idea has brought an improvement in the supply of clean water to the …

Mr Kazala-Laski interjected

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairman, may I, please, be protected from that young man.

I think that the councils in this all set-up have had a role deal. In the formation of these water utility companies, the councils have had to give up infra-structure in terms of roads and even water companies.. These companies are actually subsidiary companies for the councils. 

Sir, I think we need to revisit the paper work on agreeing on coming up with these utility companies because you will find that councils cannot get any money from these subsidiary companies. They cannot declare dividends. Chipata Water and Sewerage Company, for instance, has been in existence for over twelve years and it is a model in this country but the Chipata Council cannot get any dividend from it by some agreement.

In the first place, we should either agree on these companies giving out dividends or they start paying for the infrastructure that they got from the councils. After all, that is the financial base that the councils depended on.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Princess Nakatindi Wina (Sesheke): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for having accorded me the chance to speak. I would like to congratulate the Minister of Energy and Water Development, Hon. Lembalemba.

Mr Chairman, it seems like ZESCO is targetting we, the poor people. I know very well as a former Minister in the previous Government that ZESCO is highly owed a lot of money by the mines. I, therefore, request the Minister of Finance and National Planning to rescue ZESCO from this high indebtedness.

It is the Government which took over the debt from the mines vis-a vis-Anglo American. Instead of ZESCO requesting for their refund from the Government, they are targetting the poor man in Kabwata, Kanyama, etc, and they go with a big rod of power cut.

Sir, I was so happy when the Minister of Energy and Water Development said that he does not favour the idea of power cut. Indeed, that is not the way. As a parent, when you scold a child, you do not have to use a heavy rod or bullet. The management of ZESCO must learn to call upon defaulters, give them warnings, send them summons and talk to them and then they will learn to pay. The ZESCO management must also know that we are not all equal. Others are more equal. It is so embarrassing for ZESCO to cut power for a Minister or a Member of Parliament, especially in his constituency, like I was a Member of Parliament for Kanyama and ZESCO comes to cut my electricity just because I owe them K1 million or K2 million. This is really unethical.

Mr Chairman, during the Kaunda days when the then Managing Director of ZESCO, Mr Mkandawire, was there, there were notes on every file to say ‘do not disconnect’. We are all equal but others are more equal.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Princess Nakatindi Wina: There is no way you can cut electricity from the Speaker’s residence just because Parliament has not paid electricity. You cannot cut electricity from the Speaker’s residence. You have to follow certain norms.

So, this business of cutting electricity from the poor who owe them only K53,000 when the Government owes them more than K300 billion, I do not think that is correct. Hon. Lembalemba did a commendable job. We people who patronise markets and the poor places, you have no idea how much you were heralded. They praised you for that.

Mr Chairman, when you appoint Managing Directors for companies like ZESCO, they must be people experienced in that section. For example, engineers, etc. I do not know the Managing Director for ZESCO very well but what I know is that he is a field worker. It is so hard to get hold of him. He is always out in workshops, etc.

Mr Tetamashimba: Distributing maize!

Princess Nakatindi Wina: No. He does not distribute maize. I can stand for him. I have known him having gone to places where there are breakdowns, mending transformers. If he knows that a transformer has broken down, he literally goes there. I have missed him more than ten times in the office because he has gone to inspect a transformer where some vandals or thieves have stolen oil. There, he deserves my commendation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Princess Nakatindi Wina: Mr Chairman, as far as water is concerned, in Western Province, we really need bore holes. The Zambezi River passes through Barosteland in Western Province but it does not go
in every district and you have really forgotten about us regarding bore-holes. Yet, we breed a lot of cattle for the consumption of the people here in town. You give more bore-holes to people who are rearing goats. A goat cannot feed my family. We are too many.

Laughter.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: I need a whole cow to feed my family for at least three days, one goat is too small. So, please, look after the people of Western Province. We need more bore-holes, irrespective of where we belong, whether it is UPND, UNIP or any other party. We are all Zambians and we are all citizens of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Princess Nakatindi Wina: When we vote for this money, it is for everybody. Let us share the cake together. It is not for one family or one party at all. Without opposition parties, no donor country would give you any money because we have gone multi-partism. You need the Opposition, not only five or ten as the way it was in the Third Republic so that they can encourage you and the donors will be encouraged. So, you need the Opposition, even to get the money you are getting from Europe. So, for you to be stingy and deprive us of bore-holes in the Western Province, I do not think is being fair.

I am a victim of water. We do not swim with crocodiles like Hon. Sondashi. It is a pity he is not here.

Laughter.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: We need to be protected from crocodiles and hippos. We also need water. It is not only electricity we need. Water is life. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to talk to his people in the Western Province not to just sink bore-holes in Hon. Walubita and Hon. Manjata’s constituencies. They must as well sink bore-holes in my constituency. Failure to do that, I will storm in your office and quarrel with you.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibanga (Chama North): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for according me this opportunity to complain.

Sir, I would like to complain that energy, in terms of power supply in Mala…

Hon. Members: Malawi!

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Leave him alone.

Mr Chibanga: I would like to complain about power in Chama District. We were promised that we will be connected to Malawi as electricity is very bad in Chama. We use engine power generated system, which is called thermal and this is very bad. I would like to urge the Government to connect us to Malawi as they did in Lundazi. They promised that rural electrification would be connected to Malawi under SADC Rural Electrification. But, up to now, the Government has not done anything. So, I propose that if they cannot connect to Malawi, they can connect us to Mulanga Mission. If we are accorded electricity in Chama, there can be a lot of development like rice growing and irrigation systems in terms of agriculture.

When engine generating power was introduced in Chama, the power has not been operating for twenty-four hours. The Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) are charging fees which are exorbitant. People who own groceries are charged on commercial rates. These charges are very exorbitant. Some businessmen were complaining that they are paying about K120,000 per month, when they only receive power from 1800 hours until 0600 hours. Sometimes, if this generator breaks down for over two month, the ZESCO still continues charging them. So, I would like to complain through the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development that this problem must be looked into.

The other issue is water system. The entire Chama District has got no bore-holes. If this generator which is being operated by ZESCO goes off, people have to queue So if the generator at ZESCO switches off, people would have to walk a long way just to go and draw water from the wells and from the river called Kampemba. This is a very pathetic situation that is not supposed to be accepted. So I appeal to the hon. Minister responsible that we need bore holes drilled in Chama District so that we are considered as people also. Because as we have been complaining, we have been subjected as if we are not part of Zambia. We complain of bad roads. We are not linked to most of the places. And you know that Chama is a valley. We need power. For someone to work in an office, they need fans so that they can nicely. It is really quite a hot place. So we need to be connected to this area so that we can benefit from this SADC system. 

Mr Chairman, I hear that the Government has already set aside money for us to benefit from SADC. But I urge the Government to come and explain to us why Chama District has not been connected to SADC while Lundazi has been connected.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairman, first of all, I would like to comment on the issues pertaining to management at ZESCO. I have noted with concern that the management at Zesco has been influenced by political considerations. In most of the instances when we have by-elections in the country, ZESCO is in the forefront campaigning for the ruling party. It is not a matter that can be disputed. It is a fact. I am aware that it happened in Kabwata. They electrified certain streets but immediately they lost the by-election, they abandoned the area, and it has happened in other areas. People need services. They do not need favours. Electricity energy is a right for everyone. They should not be denied because they belong to the Opposition. They have the right to have energy. We request the management of ZESCO to work prudently and diligently in the interest of the nation.

Mr Chairman, we are also aware that funds from ZESCO have been used to fund certain political parties, and that is why they are in dire straits. This should be stopped. And that is the reason why ZESCO is not performing at the moment. It is because of the politicisation that is taking place there. If ZESCO has to perform properly and in a commercial manner, there is need to revamp the management. Most of the managers there operate as if they are party cadres because they have been influenced and appointed through political considerations. I am aware and we have evidence to that effect.

Mr Chairman, I represent Monze Constituency. This constituency has not benefited from the Rural Electrification Fund. There is no single village that has been electrified unlike other provinces where most of the villages have been electrified. Electricity is mostly generated from Southern Province and the people of Southern Province have suffered greatly due to the power generating plants that were established in Southern Province. People were displaced and they have not been compensated. We request and demand that the people of Southern Province should benefit from the rural electrification. They have suffered for it and have the right to have electricity just like any other province. We do not need favours. The people of Southern Province, like those who are in towns contribute towards the fund for electrification. But they are not benefiting. We demand that we benefit from this fund.

Mr Chairman, I am aware that the President has been emphasizing that Southern Province be an irrigation area. But without power, Mr chairman, it will be very difficult to implement irrigation in Southern Province. Diesel power, Sir, is very expensive to maintain. Electricity is cheaper. If we have to enhance agriculture in Southern Province, I request the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development and the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, “Hon. Cow Dung” to take special cognizance of the fact that we need energy to enhance Agriculture in Southern Province.

Further, Sir, I wish to state that this year Southern Province has experienced severe drought. As the situation is now, most of the areas have already run out of water. We need urgent remedial measures to sink bore-holes to ensure that the people have adequate clean water and also for purposes of irrigation and to sustain the cattle, the main livelihood of the people of Monze.

I have also noted, Sir, that there is a provision for damming in Southern Province. But I have noted with concern that the figure that has been provided for is actually inadequate. It cannot even be adequate to sink more than 5 dams if we are talking of dams that will be used for irrigation

Hon Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I request earnestly the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to reconsider and make some provision to ensure that the figure that has been provided for will be adequate to sustain the people of Southern Province who are eager and are able to feed themselves as long as the Government can provide the means to produce their own food.

Mr Chairman, lastly I will earnestly appeal to this august House to consider putting up a special fund for the people of Southern Province specifically for irrigation and for providing safe drinking water. I am speaking for Southern Province, I do not even know where you come from. So, I cannot speak for you.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: So, Sir, I am earnestly appealing that this fund be set up. There are other people who do not want handouts. They will be able to borrow from this specific fund. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My contribution is in addition to what other hon. Members have said. I hope the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, as I said, should look at  the issue of boreholes. The issue of boreholes is also a gender issue. We need boreholes in these constituencies. It is us women who have to carry the buckets so that we can cook for the men so that they can wash whatever. We really need boreholes, boreholes,  boreholes. Thank you.

Laughter

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal: Next, Mr Chairman, I think I heard hon.  Members questioning why Southern Province. Southern Province is the drought prone area- alright. So, let us bear that in mind when we are talking about water in Southern Province. We are drought prone area and that has been said by the President in his speech. However, Sir, what suprises me is that I see there is K10 billion provision for the rehabilitation construction of earth dams for again, drought prone areas. Now, I do not know whether this is the time to question, say, when are we going to know what is coming to our constituencies.

The Chairman: Order!

(Debate adjourned)
________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President: Sir, I beg to move that the House to now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 14th March, 2002.