DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 15th March, 2002

The house met at 0900 hours

 [MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES-MEMBERSHIP

Mr Speaker: I have an announcement to make. In accordance with the provisions of our Standing Orders, I have nominated the following hon. Members to constitute the following Watchdog Committees. These Committees are given the mandate to elect their own chairpersons. The hon. Deputy Speaker will preside at the election of the chairpersons.

Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’  Affairs (8)

Mr A. W. Situmbeko, MP

Mr D. Kombe, MP

Mr L. L. Phiri, MP

Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP
Mr F. M. K. Chisala, MP

Mr J. S. Chilufya, MP

Mr J. Muleya, MP

Mr F. M. Zuku, MP

Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour (8)

Mr A. C. Liato, MP

Mr G. M. Samukonga, MP

Dr P. D. Machungwa, MP

Mr M. Mukwakwa, MP

Mr S. C. Mungo, MP

Mrs W. M. Wamulume, MP

Mr J. Chibanga, MP

Mr S. Chilufya, MP

Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply (8)

Mr D. K. A. Patel, MP

Mrs W. M. Wamulume, MP

Mr D. M. Lungu, MP

Mr R. Gray, MP

Mr V. M. Mooya, MP

Mr P. C. Katema, MP

Mr D. Siakalima, MP

Mr Chitalu Sampa, MP

Committee on Agriculture and Lands (8)

Mr P. Mubyana, MP
Mr Chiti M. Sampa, MP
Miss Q. V. Kakoma, MP
Mr A. J. D. M. Chungu, MP
Miss B. H. Jere, MP
Mr R. Muntanga, MP
Captain C. Moono
Mr M. W. Mwale

Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism (8)

Mr B. S. Chipampe, MP
Mr R. M. Kapita, MP
Mr J. Chibanga, MP
Mr E. Kasoko, MP
Mr S. Chatanga, MP
Dr. P. D. Machungwa, MP
Mr R. L.  K. Laski, MP
Mrs O. Nkumbula-Liebenthal, MP

Committee on National  Security and Foreign Affairs (8)

Mr E. K. Chungu, MP
Major-General D. Zulu, MP
Mrs S. T. Masebo, MP
Mr H. J. C. Mutonga, MP
Mr J. C. Kasongo, MP
Mr C. U. Sibetta, MP
Mr M. S. Mulanda, MP
Mr E. S. Silwamba, MP

Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services (8)

Mr G. K. Nang’omba, MP
Mr Wyson M. Mwale, MP
Mr S. C. Mungo, MP
Mr K. Simasiku, MP
Mr R.C. Banda, MP
Mr C. Kakoma, MP
Mr R. K. Chulumnda, MP
Mr J. C. Ng’uni, MP

Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare (8)

Mr R. K. Chulumanda, MP
Mrs G. J. Sialumba, MP
Mr S. Sikota, MP
Mr B. Imenda, MP
Mr S. K. Mukuka, MP
Mr P. G. Phiri, MP
Mr L. Chikoti, MP
Mr R. Gray, MP

Committee on Education, Science and Technology (8)

Mr E. Mudenda, MP
Mr L. J. Ngoma, MP
Mr G. F. Sichilima, MP
Mr T. M. Bwalya, MP
Mrs Inonge Mutukwa Wina, MP
Mr J. C. Moonde, MP
Mrs R. C. Banda, MP
Mr Y. M. Badat, MP

Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters (8)

Mr J. Masowe, MP
Mr L. L. Phiri, MP
Mr R. J. N. Banda, MP
Mr K. M. Shepande, MP
Mr A. N. M. Nakalonga, MP
Miss E. Z. Nawakwi, MP
Mr T. M. Bwalya, MP
Mr Y. H. Banda, MP

Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs (8)

Mr A. Haakaloba, MP
Mr R. K. Sichinga, MP
Mr B. M. M. Ntundu, MP
Mr N. Nzowa, MP
Mrs R. Musokotwane, MP
Mr Z. E. Banda, MP
Mr M. B. Mwaba, MP
Dr P. D. Machungwa, MP

Thank you.

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BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: May His Honour the Vice-President, please, indicate business of the House for next week.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I wish to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 19th March, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills if there will be any, after which the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Expenditure and will consider the following Heads of Expenditure: Head 29/01 – Ministry of Local Government and Housing; Head 20/01 – Loans and Investments - Ministry of Local Government and Housing; Head 34/01 - Human Rights Commission; Head 33/01 – Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry; Head 37/01 – Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and Head 21/01 – Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

On Wednesday, 20th March 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider private Members’ motions, if there will be any, after which the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Expenditure and will consider the following Heads: Head 44/01 – Ministry of Labour and Social Security; Head 45/01 – Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare; Head 46/01 – Ministry of Health; Head 51/01 – Ministry of Communications and Transport; and Head 64/01 – Ministry of Works and Supply.

On Thursday, 21st March 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Expenditure and will consider the following Heads: Head 65/01 – Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training; Head 46/01 – Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources; Head 51/01 – Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development; and Head 64/01 – Ministry of Defence.

On Friday, 22nd March 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Expenditure and will consider the following Heads of Expenditure: Head 78/01 – Office of the President – Special Division; Head 80/01 – Ministry of Education; Head 85/01 – Ministry of Lands; Head 87/01 – Anti-Corruption Commission.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

_____

MOTION

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that from Tuesday, 19th March, 2002, until the House shall approve the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure (including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) Standing Orders 16, 17 and 18 be suspended to enable the House to sit from 0930 hours to 2000 hours each day, if necessary.

Mr Speaker, I am moving this motion to enable this august House bring to fruition one of its important annual programmes, namely, that of considering and approving the Estimates of Expenditure for the year 2002 financial year, within the stipulated constitutional deadline. There is an urgent need to approve the Estimates as quickly as possible. 

This is the third month of the Budget year and any further delays in approving the Estimates of Expenditure will have disastrous consequences on the already fragile economy. 

Sir, for reasons, which are already known to all hon. Members, the Budget was only presented to the House on Friday, 1st March, 2002. This has consequently led to the delay in the commencement of the consideration of the Estimates. Whilst it may not be the fault of the House that approval of the Estimates started rather late, we may still be blamed for any delay in the implementation of developmental projects. To avoid this blame, I am urging the House to support this motion. 

Mr Speaker, this motion is not a strange one. This Standing Order is suspended each time there is need to extend time to transact business either in the House or in the Committee of Supply. 

Members may wish to be reminded that in the month of March, 2002, there are two clear days that are public holidays. These are Tuesday, 12th March, which is Youth Day and Friday, 29th March, which is Good Friday. This means that the House will lose two sitting days and will need to cover as much business as possible in a day before the end of this month. If the Estimates are not approved by the end of March, we will run into constitutional problems, as public funds will not have been authorised by the House for expenditure.

Sir, for the information of the House, it is on record that in the last five years, the Estimates were approved as follows: 1997 – 26th March; 1998 – 3rd March; 1999 – 18th March; 2000 – 15th March; and 2001 – 14th March. We should also try to go by precedence that has been set. 

Besides, Mr Speaker, I know that all hon. Members are anxious to go back to their constituencies to see how their constituents are fairing in the face of the drought that is looming in the country.

In proposing this motion, Mr Speaker, I am aware that some colleagues would have preferred that we work up to 2200 hours. However, taking into account security of the hon. Members of Parliament, I would not advise that we work that late. I am also aware that some hon. Members of this august House are businessmen and normally they would like to add to their personal businesses up until the time when we come here at 1430 hours. But doing so will delay the business of the House, and in any case, that is the price we pay for being Members of Parliament, that parliamentary work comes first before any other business.

Mr Speaker, I am also aware that even hon. Members of the Cabinet will, now, have to work on Saturdays and Sundays, if they have to catch up with their office work. Coming to start work here at 0930 hours up to 1300 hours and then from 1430 hours up to 2000 hours will mean that hon. Ministers may not be able to do sufficient office work. Equally, I am aware that some hon. Members of this House, especially lawyers, may have cases in courts during the time that I am proposing. It may be necessary for them to talk to the Chief Whip to make arrangements on those days when it may be absolutely necessary to go out of this august House for an hour or so.

Mr Speaker, this is a straightforward motion and I hope the House will support it for it is necessary for them to get back to their constituencies so that they can report to the voters what they have done. For instance, how much electricity we want to go to Mwase Mpangwe. So, it is necessary that this business be finished, otherwise, there will be no funds for Mwanse Mpangwe electricity and for all those with projects.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr. Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak on this motion and also to welcome the new Chief Whip, Hon. Newstead Zimba. We hope to work well with you. Your predecessor did not do a good job here and so we are looking up to you to do a good job.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, the Government is at fault. We are here because the President, through you, summons this House to meet and deliberate on the Budget and on issues affecting this nation. This Government was elected to office on the 27th December, 2001, and by 5th January, 2002, this Government was sworn in. Through you, they could have summoned the House as early as 17th and 18th January, 2002, which traditionally is the time you summon us to come and look at the Budget.

Mr Speaker, it has always taken us two months to discuss the Budget. We were surprised when the New Deal Government put forward a programme to introduce the Budget on 1st March so that we would have only twenty-one days within which to discuss the Budget when there are two public holidays falling within that period. We were surprised as to who was behind this new change of calendar to rush in very important issues, including taxation that affects the people we represent here. No Government can levy tax in this country without our approval and that is why the Budget is here for us to scrutinise and approve it.

Mr Speaker, perhaps, this is the reason why His Honour the Vice-President and his Government today have encircled the motel with paramilitary police officers. I do not know whether he wants to force us to agree to his new schedule.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: There are paramilitary officers around our motel without your approval. This is unprecedented for him to actually coerce us by bringing paramilitary officers to the motel. We are not going to agree to such kind of tactics. We are the representatives of the people and we need to be accorded the respect that goes with our tag.

Mr Speaker, the rejection of this motion should be blamed on the Government. They did a programme, which is outside the traditional time. We have always quoted the tradition of Commonwealth and here is the tradition of the Commonwealth being violated. You normally give ample time to look at the Budget and His Honour the Vice-President is asking us to gloss over a very important document that affects the lives of the people. I do not support this motion and it is my feeling that my friends here, other hon. Members, do not support it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this motion. I do not want to be irrelevant to this august House. What we have come here for is to scrutinise what has made the people of Zambia suffer for the past ten years. The change from New Culture to New Deal should be understood.

Mr Speaker, our coming here to sit is not just a matter of sitting and talking whenever we feel like talking. We have come here to deal with the Budget, and Members of Parliament should be given ample time to research and debate meaningfully. The issue of us sitting from 0900 hours to 2000 hours, with due respect, look at the hon. Minister of Finance and Planning (Mr Kasonde). His age cannot allow him to sit in that chair from morning up to the time you are proposing.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: If you look at Hon. Sampa and Hon. Mfula and many others – you are lucky, hon. Mr Speaker, because you have a Deputy Speaker to sit in for you.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, we do not want these Ministers, after we adjourn, to be sent to South Africa for treatment because of over-sitting in Parliament. We want them to start disbursing funds to various ministries immediately we adjourn. We understand their concern of security when they say that from 2000 hours to 2200 hours, they would like to protect Members of Parliament. That is not an issue. Even at 2000 hours, it is still risky for Members to be leaving this House. Even at 1900 hours if someone wants to sort you out, they will do it and so the issue of saying you would like to protect hon. Members is out of question.

Mr Speaker, what we would like is to be relevant to the people by debating issues that affect their lives. Denying your Members of Parliament the opportunity to go to various Government departments in the mornings to research is denying justice to the people of Zambia. We have come here not just to talk for the sake of talking because we are in the Opposition. This motion could be welcome. Let us reach a compromise that whatever motion comes before this august House, the Opposition should not be seen to be shooting down for the sake of it. No. This is well meaning, but we do not agree with the timing. We do not want to sit here from 0900 hours to 2000 hours. 

Mr Chairman, we would be happy if the Leader of this House agreed with us without causing a division. If the Government wants to rush things the way they want to, we will call for a division and it will be an embarrassment to see most of our friends – we had a caucus meeting when we were at the motel. We have a number of hon. Members who will support us from the Government side.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: We are not here just to talk, but to serve our people. So, we do not want to embarrass the Vice-President by calling for a division because we are going to go ahead in our normal sittings if this motion is defeated. We want him to understand our point. It is a good motion but we do not agree to sit from 0900 hours to 2000 hours. We agree to sit from 1430 to 2200 hours.

Mr Speaker, I promised to be relevant.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Chipili): Mr Speaker, in supporting this motion, I want us, as hon. Members of this House, to understand one thing. While it is true that the Government may be at fault, it is also true that we have a responsibility to this nation. Our responsibility goes beyond timing. What is likely to happen here is the shut down of Government if we do not pass this Budget within the stipulated time. This will entail that the same people we are claiming to serve in the House will go minus pay in various sectors of this economy.

Now, somebody says security is not an issue at 2200 hours, when it is very clear that Hon. Patel and several other hon. Members do not live at the Parliament Motel. Mr Speaker, it will be necessary that we exercise maximum responsibility here. We are here, elected by the people of Zambia and they are looking to us for service and part of this service is passing this Budget.

I do not think it is a big deal if we work from 0930 hours to 2000 hours. We are in a position to finish this Budget. If we do not finish, the same people you are championing the cause for will be wondering whether you are taking care of their interests. So, it will be necessary if we agree.

Sir, I plead with hon. Members to support this motion so that we can be done with the Budget and carry on with the business of governance and as representatives of the people.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for allowing me to say a few words on the motion, which is on the Floor. We must not be misunderstood that we do not want to pass the Budget. I think from the time the Budget was presented, the hon. Members on your left (the Opposition) have wholly supported the Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Sibetta: Yes, the good old man!

Mr Tetamashimba: Even when he talks, everybody has been very happy with his presentations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: So, there is nobody on your left side who is against the old man. In fact, we would want God to give him many years to serve.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko: Provided they do not kill him!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, we have been told that we need to pass the Budget because we have no time, but I think when you go to the Constitution, Article 115 (2)(b), if I am not mistaken, it gives the President four months and four months goes up to April. That is the presidential warrant. 

Mr Sibetta: Chiluba signed it!

Mr Tetamashimba: Therefore, there is nothing like the Minister of Finance and National Planning will not pay salaries after March. That is not correct.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, we heard the Leader of the House mention some timings which have been mentioned by Hon. Lucas Phiri. We tried as the Opposition to convince the Government that sitting in the morning will not be accepted, but in suggesting that we should not be sitting in the morning, we also made a proposal. The people on your left do not just want to argue for arguments’ sake, they want to give alternatives. The alternative we gave was that since the Leader of the House, from his calculations, wants an extra nineteen and half hours per week, when you calculate from his request, the people on your left requested that they are willing to suspend Standing Orders 16, 17, 18, but that the sitting timings be changed. We think that the mornings must be free to hon. Members of Parliament to go to offices as Hon. Phiri had said.
Also, because Parliament takes precedence, our colleagues who are lawyers would have requested the judges that they are Members of Parliament and that their cases should be coming up in the morning. That could have been done. It is not good for hon. Members of Parliament to be asking for permission from the Chief Whip to go to court because parliamentary duties take precedence.

What was our proposal? We proposed that everyday, we sit for an extra two and half hours. Instead of 2000 hours, we leave at 2230 hours as Hon. Phiri had said, except that it should be from Monday to Thursday and that on Friday, we are willing to sit extra, to allow the Government, who have caused this problem, to sit up to 1800 hours. When you calculate, it comes to the nineteen and half hours which the Leader of the House wants us to sit, instead of us being free the whole day on Monday but sit from 0900 hours everyday up to Friday.

These were the proposals we gave him. What is, therefore, the problem if we are taking into consideration the nineteen and half hours he wants per week? How can they stand up to try to impress on the public that the people on your left are saying something that cannot fit in their programme?

Mr Speaker, as Hon. Sibetta said, we have this problem. In fact, I would have expected the Leader of the House to apologise for this inconvenience of starting to sit early. When we came for the swearing in, seminars and so on, there was time when your hon. Members of Parliament on the left would come after one week and after three days and then come the following week. We even asked why we could not do these other things so that we cut off on some of the items that are normally covered when Parliament opens. We sent those feelers, but nobody took us seriously. We knew this was going to happen.

Mr Speaker, we are opposing this motion not because we do not want to sit the extra nineteen and half hours, but because they want us to be sitting in the morning and afternoon. Why should they start claiming that Monday should be free for Cabinet Ministers to sit, when it is the same Cabinet that caused these problems? Why should they start asking us to sit the whole day because Monday is a Cabinet day? You cannot have your cake and eat it. You are the cause of all these things. 

So, we are only asking this New Deal Government that if they cannot finish their Cabinet meetings on Monday, their Deputy Ministers can always be here to represent them. They are part of Government. That is what we have always been told. When the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, for example, is not here, his Deputies can sit in for him. So, if they think that they are at Cabinet meetings on Mondays, they need to start their Cabinet meetings at 0600 hours so that they can finish before Parliament.

Having said so, Sir, I will be a very happy man and I am sure you have heard the insinuations coming from the Opposition. We would not want to start going to vote. I think it is not the right thing. Since we are giving them an alternative for the same hours that he has requested, except the timings, the Leader of the House should be able to come with a motion that we are presenting to them because there will be no debate and we shall simply agree. Before I sit down, let us not be misunderstood. If there are many issues that any hon. Members of Parliament have been interested to see in this Budget, there are two issues, that of the District Administrators and giving the former Head of State money when there is no vacancy. Otherwise, there is no problem with this Budget. It could even be passed the same day. So, I do not know where they are getting this worry of saying the Budget will not be approved. We can pass it even in one day. There is nothing in this Budget, which can make you not have your Budget approved. We are ready to approve it and it can be approved in a day. So, we are requesting that this motion be withdrawn and come to what we are saying.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I thank you for giving me the opportunity to reply to the hon. Members who have spoken. I believe that when matters of the House need discussion, they have to be discussed at whatever time. In my long stay in this House, Parliament has sat up to 0400 hours. I think the Government is quite serious when we consider the security of hon. Members of this House. I am not too sure whether it is correct for the hon. Member of Parliament even to question the fact that there may be added or extra security provided at the Members' Motel. But, that is up to him. I do not mind what he is saying.

Mr Speaker, it is not my intention to open old wounds that are healing, but it is not fair to wholly blame the Government for the delay. We had the delay on the question of the voting of the Speaker and his Deputy. The very things that the Opposition had rejected are the things that we brought back to be accepted.

Mr Speaker, it is not necessary to call for a division because we believe we have a lot of work to do. I would, however, seek a compromise with the hon. Members of the House that we sit from 1430 hours up to 2200 hours everyday, except Mondays. That will give the Government time to work.

Mr Speaker, otherwise, everything else comes to a standstill as far as Government work is concerned. I wish to conclude by stating that this House in the First and Second Republics used to sit from 1030 hours to 1300 hours and 1430 hours to 2000 hours. It was only changed in the last ten years. So, it is not that we are asking for something that has not been tried before. If we are agreeable that Monday is left for Cabinet Ministers to attend to Government meetings, then I am willing to withdraw the motion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Wa kula mudala!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I seek to make an amendment as opposed to withdrawal of the whole otion.

Thank you, Sir.

Business was suspended from 1048 hours until 1051 hours.

Question that from Tuesday, 19th March, 2002, until the House shall approve the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) Standing Orders 16, 17 and 18 be suspended to enable the House to sit from 1430 hours to 2200 hours each day except Monday, put and agreed to.

______

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

The Chairman: For the sake of my dear colleagues who have come here for the first time, I would like to explain that we have now entered the Committee stage of the Bills. At this stage, there are no debates. We are going to look at every clause. We are going to agree to every clause. And if there are any amendments, just stand up and give reasons. But prior to that, you have to notify everybody in this House by way of circulating an amendment. If the amendment is coming from back-benchers, then the mover should stand up when we come to that clause and propose the amendment. You do not say much. You only say, ‘I would like this clause to be amended with the words as circulated.’ 

If no circulation has been made, the amendment will fall away. If it is an amendment that will come from the hon. Minister responsible for the Bill, then each one of you should have circulated copies and equally propose an amendment to be accepted. If the amendment is not accepted, you only indicate and I give you the Floor and you give reasons why you cannot accept the amendment. If you do accept, that will be good. But if you do not accept, I will ask the hon. Minister responsible to explain his stand and at that point a slight debate, and exchange of views might go on until we come to a compromise. That is what we are now going to do in this Committee Stage.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (Amendment) BILL, 2002

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 and Appendix 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

APPENDIX II – (Section 6) 

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in Appendix II, on page 55, under paragraph (b) (ii), by the deletion of ‘45%’, and the substitution therefore of ‘30%’. I have proposed an amendment with consultation with the hon Minister of Finance and National Planning and I think the hon. Minister is agreeable.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Chairman, I do not agree and I think the hon Member is putting words in my mouth. I strongly object to the proposed amendment purely on revenue considerations. I have a lot of respect for the Member making the proposal. The revenue loss that will result from this proposal is in the region of K41 billion, in addition to the loss I announced in the Budget. The total loss from this proposed amendment will be approximately K80 billion.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Has the hon Minister of Finance and National Planning finished or not?

Mr Kasonde: I have not, Sir.

The Chairman: Please, continue.

Mr Kasonde: Sir, I was saying that the total loss from the proposed amendment by the ‘hon. Minister’…

Mr Sibetta: I thank you.

Mr Kasonde: … will be K80 billion. Unless I am told where I can get this money, I cannot accept this proposal, Sir. It is too costly.

Thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi) Mr Chairman, the proposal of amendment was not circulated and this is why I want to raised a point order.

Hon. Opposition Members raised their folders.

Dr Sondashi: Where is it? Was it circulated yesterday?

Hon Opposition Members: Yes!

Dr Sondashi: If it was circulated yesterday, then, I have not seen it. I am sorry, I would like to withdraw my point of order.

Laughter.

The Chairman: Order! The amendment was put in the individual folders and placed in the pigeon holes yesterday. So, every Member must have a copy in the folder. 

Interruptions.{mospagebreak}

The Chairman: How many Chairmen are we here?

Mr Sibetta: Authority.

Laughter.

The Chairman: The hon. Minister of Works and Supply is out of order.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, so far the proposed amendment by the hon. Minister is for factory or refinery and has no meaning to the farming community for whom he intends this benefit to accrue so that they produce more food. The Government is proposing to contract many commercial farmers to grow maize under irrigation and to increase agricultural activity by employing a lot of our people and produce plenty of food. This country is importing food and for the past ten years, this country has been starving. 

This proposed amendment, hon. Minister, is likely to save us from further importation if you agree to this proposal. If the Minister checks at pumps in Lusaka or anywhere, he will find that first of all, petroleum companies never accepted his directive to change with effect from midnight of the Budget day. The Minister of Energy and Water Development had to threaten various energy companies to reduce and when they reduced, the reduction was meaningless.

So, what we are suggesting is that there will be a loss of revenue of K58 billion. What the Minister is proposing in his speech is the K28 billion and I do not know where he got K41 billion because in his Budget Speech, he was talking of K28 billion and when we bring it down to 30 per cent, it goes to K56 billion. This will be offset by increased production and will be offset by reducing funding to District Administrators who are very unproductive and this Government is bent on …

The Chairman: Order! You just defend your proposal and give reasons. Do not stray yourself in other areas. DAs do not come in here and we are not discussing the DAs. They have got a section of their own. Just stick to your reasons for the 30 per cent.

Mr Sibetta: Sir, the Government will make a saving if it cuts off the Budget not only the unproductive areas, which I am told I should not stray into …

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … but also the agricultural community, the transport and the Zambia Railways, which is almost running at a loss and is the main consumer together with the mines. Anglo American Corporation is threatening to pull out of Zambia and it is one of the biggest consumer of diesel. So, the hon. Minister will …

The Chairman: Order! You are not supporting your proposal of 30 per cent, you are rumbling. Will the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, please, reply.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, it is not simple arithmetic where you say if you announced a loss of twenty-eight and that now, the additional loss is forty-one and the total is fifty nine or whatever it is. It is not like that. The implications of VAT loss have to be compounded in. That is why my advice to Members is that these figures in the Budget are worked over with experts from different aspects of life and we go in detail from above the middle of the year. It is not just a simple arithmetic that we arrive at by adding one and two and getting three. We look at the implications of each and every proposal for each and every industry in depth with the experts of that specific industry so that when these figures are put here, they are not just plucked from the air. They are in fact heavily researched.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, this proposal is well-meaning. I have discussed with my elder brother, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and he is agreeable.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: He is a transporter and a farmer. I am a farmer too and most of hon. Members are farmers. The proposal he has given in the Budget is meaningless, unless we take it further to this level. That is when we will have an impact for food production and reduction in transport. He should come forward so that we approve his Budget and this is the only amendment we have made and it is a well-meaning amendment. We do not want to put any further amendments, but we ask you to come forward.

I thank you Sir.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I have nothing to add.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Members: You have got it wrong.

The Chairman: Order!

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! Let me not put it into unparliamentary language, but your only language.

Interruptions.

Mr Chairman: Please, when I am explaining, pay attention, then you will understand. 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Chairman: Now, you are saying no! To what are you saying no, tell me?

Interruptions.

Mr Chairman: Hon. Sichinga, tell me why you are saying no.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, I am not saying no to that. I am saying that the motion has been agreed to …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Sichinga: … because we are saying yes to the amendment. The motion is carried. 

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why are we going backwards?

The Chairman: You will all agree that there was a crowd of confusion.

Hon. Oppostion Members: Aah!

The Chairman: This is why I am saying I should put it in a language that I believe will draw the line.

Mr L. L. Phiri: No!

The Chairman: How can you say no to the language I have not even put forward yet? What are you trying to do?

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! The amendment has been put forward by Hon. Sibetta who insists that it must stand. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is saying not to the amendment. Therefore, what I would like to do is put this in a language that everybody will understand …

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: … so that we all know which way the pendulum is swinging. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is saying no to the amendment and Mr Sibetta is sticking to his amendment. 

Question put and there was no agreement

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order! The noes and the ayes seem to be equal in number. One day one of you will be here and you will see how difficult it is. My advice to some of you is that you should not cause trouble for trouble will trouble you. We should just compromise. I have failed to make a decision because the noes and the ayes seem to be equal. 

So, I want to devise a system that will show us which way we must go. I think that is democratic. Let us vote.

Mr Chitalu  M. Sampa (Kalulushi): Mr Chairman, it is not normal for us to vote on a simple matter which we can compromise to save the situation. In this respect, I would suggest that we discuss a bit and, perhaps, in the course of our discussions, we may then be able to come to a compromise.

Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, yesterday I contributed to the debate on this Bill and when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning explained, I came to understand the reason why he insisted on this. For us to agree to lose something between K40 billion and K80 billion, I think it is suicidal. Therefore, I would propose and, perhaps, ask my colleagues on the other side that to be calm and accept the proposal by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning so that …

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

The Chairman: There is a suggestion being made and I have to answer to that suggestion. 

Mr Chitalu M. Sampa: So, this is my proposal and, perhaps, if we can all come together, we may reach a compromise, rather than arguing on this simple matter. So, I support the hon. Minister.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: If my personal observation is correct, I would say that the Government side is not supporting the hon. Minister. Every time he is struggling on his own or the Leader of the House struggles on his own, where as the other side they seem to know what they are doing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: From the word go when Hon. Sibetta started giving reasons for supporting the 30 per cent of his proposal, there have been echoes supporting him. The hon. Minister has done his best to reject this proposal of 30 per cent. The hon. Member for Kalulushi is the only one who has stood up. If you think other contributions might change the minds of people on my left, I am prepared to listen to all of you before we go for a division.

The Minister for the North-Western Province (Mr Mushala): Mr Chairman, I would like to try and clarify what Hon. Chitalu Sampa has been trying to address to the House. I may be guided. We normally go into full debate when we are in the Second Reading of a Bill and in the Second Reading of this Bill, there was no contentious debate involving 45 per cent and 30 per cent. Therefore, we took it that we were all agreeable to the 45 per cent. 

Now, we are in the Third Reading and the hon. Minister has rejected Hon. Sibetta’s amendment and we should go by that because there was no contentious debate in the Second Reading. This is the Third Reading and the hon. Minister is saying we cannot reduce. Let us simply agree. If there is any problem, Hon. Sibetta, you can go and sit with the hon. Minister, convince him and then the Bill can be amended.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: I explained at the beginning that in the Committee Stage we do not debate. So, it should have been Hon. Sibetta and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. If they could not agree, I would put the question. I told you that I do not want to be biased. The Ayes and the Noes seem to be of the same number. I now want to devise a system where every one of us will go out of this Chamber and vote so that we can arrive at a decision.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: I would like to disagree with the hon. Deputy Minister for the North-Western Province that we debated this in the Second Reading stage. Yes, but in the Committee Stage if a proposal is made, you can as well advance reasons for or against and this is what must happen. If we want to open this debate again, let the battle keep on raging between the proposer and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, until we reach a compromise. The hon. Minister says he has nothing more to say and Hon. Sibetta is insisting that ii should be reduced further to 30 per cent. The Government side is saying, no, and the Opposition is saying, yes. What do we do? Let us vote.

Those who support the hon. Minister, let them show up and those who support Hon. Sibetta, let them show up. I will not allow you to debate. Let us just vote because we are wasting time.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Let me put the question again.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: Yes, let me put the question again. Those who are in favour of the amendment as proposed by Hon. Sibetta should say ‘aye’. Those with contrary views to the proposal say, ‘no’.

Hon. Opposition Members: The ‘ayes’ have it.

Interruptions.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Long live the Chair.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.
 
Interruptions.

The Chairman: Do you agree to the division or succumb?

Interruptions.

The Chairman: I am unable to see which way the pendulum is swinging.

Dr Sondashi: It is from the Chairman! You cannot call for a division!

Interruptions.

Mr L. L. Phiri: In fact, he favours it. You agreed wrongly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Let us follow the Standing Orders.

The Chairman: No, Hon. Sondashi, you are saying I am calling for a division. I am not calling for a division. When I am unable to make a decision, what do you expect me to do?

Dr Sondashi: Leave it to us.

The Chairman: Because when you shout, even some of those people who normally do not shout are shouting, and I cannot tell by sounds of no or yes.

Mr L. L. Phiri: You are right! Long live the Chair. In fact, they agreed wrongly, you are just favouring them.

Interruptions.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Let the entire  Parliament go to a one month seminar.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order!

Question that Appendix II, on page 55, under paragraph (b) (ii), in line 3, be amended by the deletion of ‘45%’ and the substitution therefor of ‘30%’ put and the House voted.

Ayes – (68)

Mr Y. M. Badat 
Mr C. R. Banda 
Mr R. J. N. Banda
Mrs R. C. Banda
Mr Y. H. Banda
Mr Chibanga
Mr Chikoti
Mr Chitanga
Mr Gray
Mr Haakaloba
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Imenda
Miss Jere
Mr Kabaghe
Mr C. W. Kakoma
Miss Q. V. Kakoma
Mr Kalumiana
Mr Kangwa
Mr Kapita
Mr Kasoko
Mr Katoka
Mr Kayaba
Mr Liato
Mr Lungu
Colonel Makumba
Mr Masowe
Mr Matongo
Mr Moonde
Captain Moono
Mr Mooya
Mr Mtonga
Mr Mr Mubiana
Mr Mudenda
Mr Mukwakwa
Mr Muleya
Mr Muntanga
Mr E. M. Musonda
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Nakalonga
Mr Nang’omba
Mr Ng’uni
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal
Mr Ntundu
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Nzowe
Mr Patel
Mr I. M. Phiri
Mr L. L. Phiri
Mr P. G. Phiri
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Shemena
Mr Siakalima
Miss Sialumba
Mr Sibetta
Mr Sichinga
Mr Simenda
Mr Situmbeko
Mr Tetamashimba
Mrs Wamulume
Mrs I. M. Wina
Princess N. Wina
Major-General Zulu
Mr P. M. Zulu

Tellers for Ayes:

Mr Kabaghe and Mr Chipili

Noes – (65)

Mr Appel
Mr A. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chama
Mr Chambeshi
Mr Chewe
Mr Chibamba
Mr J. S. Chilufya
Mr S. Chilufya
Ms R. Chipampe
Mr S. B. Chipampe
Mr Chisala
Ms Chisupa
Mr Chitala
Mr Chituwo
Mr Chola
Mr R. K. Chulumanda
Mr A. J. D. M. Chungu
Mr K. E. Chungu
Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache
Mr Kalifungwa
Mr Kalungu
Mr Kamwendo
Mrs Kapijimpanga
Mr Kasonde
Mr Katema
Mr Kavindele
Mr Kazala-Laski
Mr Kunda
Mr Lembalemba
Mr Mabenga
Dr Machungwa
Mr Manjata
Mr Mapushi
Mr Mazimba
Mr Mfula
Mr Mukuka
Mr Mulanda
Mr Mulela
Mr Muliokela
Mr Mumba
Mr Musanya
Mr Mushala
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwaba
Mr Mwaimba
Mr Mwape
Mrs Nalumango
Mr Namakando
Miss Namugala
Mr Namuyamba
Mr P. A. Ngoma
Mr Nsanda
Mrs Nsingo
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sambwa
Mr Chitalu M. Sampa
Mr Chiti M. Sampa
Mr Sichilima
Mr Silavwe
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinkala
Mr Sokontwe
Mr Dr Sondashi
Mr Zimba

Tellers for Noes: 

Mr Mushala and Mr Shepande

Amendment agreed to. Schedule amended accordingly.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: With effect from midnight.

Laughter.

The Chairman: Order! I will, now, call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to give a brief explanation as to what effects this amendment is going to have on the Budget.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I would like to thank hon. Members of the House for the decision they have taken. It is, now, for me try and implement that decision which they have taken. So, I will go to the professional people in the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to try and see how best we can implement the decision of the House. But, I can say that you have started a process of unbundling the Budget and certain commitments I made here will not be fulfilled because the reduction in the resources would mean that we have to reduce our commitments. It means that we cannot do certain things that we had promised to do because those were backed by resources proposed to be collected in the Budget. Now that we have removed an important component of that Budget, I think that we have to think again. 

I thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me opportunity to say this, but it should also be possible for you to explain to your constituents that certain reductions which we have achieved would mean certain services being withdrawn.

I thank you, Sir.

Long Title agreed to.{mospagebreak}

Business was suspended from 1105 hours until 1120 hours.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (AMENDMENT), BILL

Clauses 1, 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23 and

24 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 9, 10, 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE PROPERTY TRANSFER TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL

Clauses 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

THE MINES AND MINERALS (AMENDMENT) BILL

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Section 2)

Mr. Kasonde: Mr. Chairman, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, in line 8, by the deletion of the word ‘mental’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘metal’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2 as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2002

The Mines and Minerals (Amendment) Bill, 2002

Report stage on Tuesday, 19th March, 2002

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendments:

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2002

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2002

Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2002

Third readings on Tuesday, 19th March, 2002

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

(Debate Resumed)

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – K35, 901,205,720).

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairman, before I was interrupted by my young brother, Hon. Lucas Phiri, last evening, I had briefly outlined some of the work that had been done by the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation.

I had mentioned electrification, which had taken place in a number of townships which included Matero in Lusaka, Twapia and Chifubu in Ndola, etc. I also read out a list of seventeen projects in rural areas of different provinces of our country. These projects had been concluded at a cost of K4.25 billion. In addition, there are thirty-eight projects, all being undertaken by ZESCO, for which an amount of K60 billion has been budgetted and already, K22 billion of this amount has been spent.

I will mention just a few of these projects because I do not want to read all the thirty-eight. Sir, I will be able to lay this schedule on the Table for hon. Members to peruse if they so wish.

Mr L. L. Phiri: You are just a back-bencher!

Dr Machungwa: Some of these include projects in Gwembe-Tonga, Siavonga-Chipepo, Munyumbwe-Chipepo in Southern Province. These will cost over K4 billion and already an amount close to that has been spent. There is a project in Chembe – Luapula and another one in Eastern Province, that is, Kabale, Chadiza, Chimweka-ZNS, Chimwiko-Mpongwe, Chikango, etc. This is a project that will cost, approximately, K7 billion. Other projects such as the Lufwanyama District on the Copperbelt, which cost K4.5 billion, Nyimba-Kacholola and Muzizi-State.

This, to me, shows that a lot of work is being done to electrify some of the rural areas and even increase the coverage in the urban areas. Sir, the point I am making is that the company is doing a lot to bring power to various areas of Zambia, including the rural areas.

What we need as leaders in this House is to support this organisation and encourage it to even do more. It will be unfortunate if a company that is making such tremendous progress, as ZESCO is doing right now, does not receive our support and the support of the Government.

I would like the hon. Minister, if it is true that they are trying to concession ZESCO, to assure us that projects such as these and others, which are in very remote parts of Zambia, will continue with those who are coming to take over ZESCO. I doubt if that will be. This is a company that I believe should remain in the hands of the citizens so that these areas of our country that are not electrified can receive the service. If they want, let them take up Kafue Gorge Lower and other areas, which have been identified. They can invest there. We need this company to continue.

Mr Chairman, we will be deceiving ourselves if we think that those people who are coming here for a short time to earn a living, will actually be interested in ensuring that even the remotest areas of Zambia are developed.

As I conclude, Mr Chairman, I wish to pay tribute to those personnel at ZESCO who, even when it is raining and there is power failure, are willing to be working in the middle of the night. I live on a small holding outside Lusaka and sometimes we lose power. I would call the faults number at 3 am and they would say they have sent men in the area and they are working. This is, indeed, dedication and I salute those people at ZESCO. I hope the hon. Minister can encourage them to continue that way.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Lembalemba): Mr Chairman, since this is my first time to speak, allow me to take a few minutes just to put across a few remarks.

Sir, allow me to join the voices of all hon. Members of this august House in congratulating the Speaker on his deserved re-election to this House. His impartiality and resolve to direct the affairs of this House is unquestionable and commendable. I am convinced that many hon. Members of this august House will greatly benefit from tested leadership and experience. What I can say about you is that it is the same and this House is going to benefit a lot from you and I personally love your sense of discipline.

Mr Chairman, I stand here to thank the Lord because the election of His Excellency, President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa has made it possible for this country to continue under the umbrella of the declaration  of this country as a Christian nation.

Mr Patel: Amen!

Mr Lembalemba: Amen!

I trust that the Lord will continue to guide the President as has been demonstrated in the manner he is guiding the affairs of this nation. I also congratulate His Honour the Vice-President on his re-appointment.

To the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, this Budget is for Zambians and I think it is an abinger of many more good things to come.

Mr Chairman, my remarks will not be complete if I fail to congratulate all hon. Members of this august House, elected or nominated. I also congratulate the newly nominated and appointed hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting (Mr Newstead Zimba). Welcome back to the fold.

Mr Chairman, I strongly feel that we in MMD, including those founding fathers of this democratic dispensation of multi-partysm who are now in the opposition parties, are proud that we brought about this change. There is a phrase that says when the music changes, so does the dance. We should change our attitudes towards one another. I pray that we should treat each other as partners in building this nation and not as enemies. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: During debates whether to return to multi-party or continue with mono-party system, the First Republican President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda and not Kenneth Kaunda as some other people refer to the former President. But, I am saying Dr Kenneth Kaunda with all the respect stated that if you return to multi-party politics, you will be fighting amongst yourselves. Mr Chairman, this prophetic sentiments will come true if we are not true. Forewarned is forearmed. There is also a phrase that, ‘do not follow a beast to its hiding place because you may not be able to come out safely.’

Sir, let us not follow other people blindly. You may not know their agenda. We have to be very careful. We have very big responsibilities to the people of Zambia. We were elected individually from our constituencies. We owe everything in this House to the people who elected us in the constituencies.

This business of banding ourselves with people whose agenda we do not know is going to derail us and the people of Zambia are not going to benefit.

Interruptions.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Chairman, we need each other. This is our Zambia. Political parties come and go. But Zambia and Zambians remain forever.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: On my part and my ministry, I shall treat every hon. Member of Parliament, irrespective of his political affiliation equally because we asked for it. We should learn to respect the voice of the people, which is the voice of God.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: Failure to do so will be tantamount to throwing a banquet, but inviting unwanted guests. His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa said that the opposition parties mean well. Indeed, let us all mean well.

Mr Chairman, allow me to conclude my maiden speech or whatever, …

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: …to thank the voters in my constituency, Mufulira, for giving me another chance to represent them. I am promising them that I will do my level best.

Let me now come to the Vote on the Floor of the House. Firstly, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development's aim is to ensure improved availability and provision of adequate and reliable energy and water resources to support vital social and economic progress and improvement of quality of life for every Zambian.

Mr Chairman, let me begin my review of the ministry with the energy sector. In this sector, my ministry has developed an energy policy aimed at promoting optimum supply and utilisation of energy, especially indigenous forms to facilitate the social and economic development of the country and maintenance of a safe and health environment.

Allow me, now, Mr Chairman, to highlight each energy sub-sector. In the petroleum sector, we are working tirelessly to normalise petroleum supply in the country. We are going to float a public tender soonest to attract all crude oil suppliers to come on board.

Following the invitation of the private sector to participate in feedstock procurement and also marketing, my ministry has been having discussions with all marketing companies to chart the way forward in this respect. My ministry has set the following criteria. Mr Chairman, the companies to be given the tender should be prepared to supply the feedstock at reasonable prices. We are not going to allow companies that are going to bring very expensive crude oil at the farm tank.

Secondly, we want a uniform pump price to apply across the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: We advised crude oil supplier companies to provide own funding with no Government guarantees. We also requested them to ensure continuous supply without any disruption. We want them to hold discussions between oil marketing companies for reasonable credit facilities.

Mr Chairman, let me now state that we are being involved in negotiations with some companies and we are about to conclude. We, first of all, want to have 180,000 metric tonnes just as a stop gap measure, while all tender documents are being put in place, and we are almost there. This is because the contract with Total International ended on 28th February, 2002.

Mr Chairman, as regards the TAZAMA Pipeline, in the year 2001, the company continued to pump feedstocks, although intermittently due to lack of feedstock from the suppliers, the Zambia National Oil Company. 

As for Indeni Refinery, I wish to inform the House that the refinery was recommissioned in January, 2001, after the 1991 inferno. Refinery operations resumed in May, 2001, and the refinery continued to process feedstock intermittently due to lack of feedstocks from the supplier. With these new measures, which we are putting in place, the situation at Tazama Pipeline and Indeni Refinery is expected to come back to normal very soon and we are working tirelessly to see that it is so.

Mr Chairman, in the electricity sub-sector, my ministry, after successfully mobilising funds of more than US$210 million, undertook rehabilitation works of electricity generation, transmission and distribution infrastructure. I am glad to report that the project is now at full implementation stage. As reported in the previous years, the rehabilitation will allow for efficient, reliable and cost effective supply of electricity by ZESCO. 

Mr Chairman, in terms of rural electrification projects, we have reported progress. Some of the major highlights have been the commissioning of the 33Kv supply line from Mzimba in Malawi to Lundazi and electrification of Manyimba sub-station in Kabompo District. I wish to inform the House that a total cost of approved rural electrification project amounts to K100 billion for which only K15 billion has so far been allocated in this year’s Budget. I am sure that when the budgetary allocation improves, we shall do more.

The ministry is currently working out some mechanisms to ensure that the Rural Electrification Fund are released to the ministry on time and budgeted in order to accelerate the Rural Electrification Programme. 

Mr Chairman, promotion of wider application of solar energy as contained in the energy policy has also been made an integral part of the Rural Electrification Programme. In 2001, solar home systems were provided on cost recovery basis to households in Eastern Province. Lucas Phiri, you understand.

Mr L. L.  Phiri: Yes, Sir.

Mr Lembalemba: It is my Government‘s desire to enable other households in the country to benefit from the programme in the near future. In terms of township electrification programme, this is another continuous exercise being undertaken by ZESCO and I must thank Hon. Machungwa for the information that he gave this House.

In an effort to continue supplying power to households at reasonable tariffs, ZESCO recently took over the supply of power to mine townships on the Copperbelt. In terms of regional co-operation and promotion of power trade in the region, the ministry has made progress with Zambia/Tanzania inter-connector. Consultancy services are being procured to carry out technical, financial and economical feasibility studies of the project. For the purposes of implementing the project, Kenya has expressed interest in buying power from Zambia and this development has expanded the scope of the project to extend to the East African Community as well. 

The other inter-connector project is the Zambia/Namibia Inter-Connector. ZESCO and Nampower of Namibia are working on a project for ZESCO to supply power to the Namibian town of Katima Mulilo. The inter-connection with neighbouring countries is important to increase the revenue from power sales. 

Mr Chairman, the Gwembe/Tonga Project that is aimed at compensating the local people on their displacement continued to make progress in the year 2001. 

On the regulatory aspects of the energy sector, the Energy Regulation Board in the year 2001 continued to regulate the energy sector in order to promote liberalisation and encourage rational production and distribution of energy. It also has to ensure that energy activities in the country meet acceptable and technical and environmental standards. As you are aware, Mr Chairman, the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) also issues licences to eligible energy undertakings for them to operate. 

The Office for Promoting Private Power Investment (OPPPI) that was created in my ministry for the purpose of facilitating private sector involvement in power development continued to make progress in the year 2001. The first hydro-power generation and transmission lines to be developed are Kafue Gorge Lower, Itezhi-tezhi and the electrification of Mkushi Farm Block. I am glad to report that prospective bidders are being shortlisted and bidding documents will be distributed to qualified bidders early this year and concessions will be negotiated with successful bidders during the same year.

Mr Chairman, I now wish to inform the House that my ministry’s future progress in  the energy sector will give immediate priority to:

(a)    ensuring that the provision and supply of energy in all these various homes is managed in the most efficient and cost-effective manner;
(b)    the promotion of private sector participation in the energy sector;
(c)    improvement of security of petroleum supply in the nation, hence the ministry will begin with a task of establishment of strategic storage reserve facilities. This is an important task designed to ensure security of supply at all times. In this regard, we are going to turn the Zambia National Oil Company, ZNOC, into the manager of strategic reserves for the country;
(d)    expertise the private sector participation in the supply of feedstock using the existing infrastructure;
(e)    developing subsidiary legislation to give effect to the Electrification and Energy Regulation Acts; and
(f)    the Government will continue with the policy of increasing accessibility to electricity by increasing the pace of electrification so that the percentage of Zambians with access to electricity is increased. 

Mr Speaker, I now wish to address myself to the water sector. In the water sector, the policy is aimed at promoting sustainable water resources development with a view to facilitate equitable provision of adequate, quantity and quality of water of all concerned groups of users at acceptable costs, ensuring security of supply under various varying conditions. I wish to review the performance of the water sector in the year, 2001.

In 2001, my ministry, with the help of co-operating partners, continued to promote measures that will ensure that there is clean and adequate water supply throughout the country for domestic use. The following were the achievements:

(a)    Central Province had two dams rehabilitated and six water points constructed under HIPC Programme;

(b)    in the Copperbelt Province, eight boreholes were constructed and one dam rehabilitated;

(c)    in Lusaka Province, the HIPC Programme achieved the construction of fourteen boreholes and rehabilitation of three dams; 

(d)    in the Eastern Province, rural water supply project aided by the Germany Government constructed 560 water points from 1999 to 2001; 

Hon. Sibetta, that was under the MMD Government.

(e)    in Luapula Province, eighteen water points were constructed with HIPC funding; 

(f)    in Northern Province, Ireland Aid has continued supporting rural water supply programmes. Fifteen boreholes were constructed in 2001. The HIPC programme also did repair works on two dams and constructed three boreholes; 

(g)    the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) funded the construction of eighteen water points in Maheba and the HIPC Programme constructed three boreholes in North-Western Province;

(h)    in Southern Province under HIPC, twenty-five dams were rehabilitated and three boreholes constructed, while the Gwembe Tonga Project constructed thirteen boreholes in the Zambezi Valley; 

(i)    the HIPC Programme rehabilitated twenty-five dams and constructed three boreholes; and

(j)    in Western Province, UNHC funded the construction of fourteen water points, while the HIPC Programme constructed eight boreholes.

Mr Sibetta: interjected.

Mr Lembalemba: Yes, I do agree my brother. 

Mr Chairman, the Water Board, a statutory board under the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, continued to regulate the use and abstraction of surface water resources of Zambia by considering and issuing water rights to farmers and other users. Water rights are issued in order to promote efficient water resource uses, conservation and equitable use of water.

On the regulatory aspect of the water sector, National Water Supply and Sanitation Council (NWASCO) established to regulate the sector and ensure efficiency and sustainability of water supply and sanitation service provision, continued to regulate the water companies and any other public water providers. There are at present forty-four licenced providers, nine of which are commercial utilities, four are parastatal or private companies providing water as a fringe benefit and the rest are local authorities that have not yet established water companies.

Mr Chairman, the Zambezi River Authority which is mandated to operate, monitor and maintain the Kariba Dam complex continued with this function. The Zambezi River Authority is jointly owned by Zambia and Zimbabwe to operate the dam. The Water Resources Action Programme is designed to implement Zambia’s national water policy, specifically those aspects dealing with water resources management put in place in 2001 with a project manager and other professionals contracted.

 Sir, the water resources action programme is necessary to ensure that Zambia’s water resources are managed and utilised for maximum economic benefit in an equitable and sustainable manner with strong stakeholder participation.

Lastly, Sir, I wish to inform the House that my ministry’s future programmes in the water sector will give immediate priority to the construction and rehabilitation of dams, wells and boreholes. These facilities are vital for rural water supply and very strategic to mitigate against droughts and promotion of agriculture as one of the engines for rural development.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L .Phiri: That is an assurance.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr. Chairman, construction of water points at schools, clinics – mwana this is a New Deal.

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: Construction of water points at schools, clinics and selected villages within the Zambezi Valley to help mitigate some negative impacts on the people of the area is as a result of the construction of the Kariba Dam.

Sir, implementation of the water resources action programme is a development strategy for integrated water resources management with stakeholder participation as a contribution to poverty reduction. Monitoring of surface and ground water resources through a network of stations on major rivers and aquifers to collect data needed for planning purposes.

Mr Chairman, and hon. Members of this august House, allow me to end my statement by reiterating my ministry’s vision that energy and water services should not be the preserve of the few, but should be provided to all. These are basic requirements without which none would have a meaningful standard of living.

I, therefore, urge this august House to support and approve the budgetary allocation to my ministry for the continued provision of the goods and services for the Zambian people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: Mr. Chairman, let me now turn to individual contributions. Hon. Kasongo, I want to thank you for commending the officers in the provinces who have been drilling water under very difficult conditions. The hon. Member was advising that the equipment should be replaced. My ministry, in conjunction with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, including the HIPC programme, are doing everything possible to see that if we are serious with this exercise of providing water, we should also have machinery, which is in good condition.

Mr Chairman, the hon. Member also raised concerns that the Government was not paying ZESCO for the services that were provided. We had very good meetings where we resolved that if the balance sheet at ZESCO is to improve, all Government institutions that are owing money to Zesco should be the first to pay and by doing so lead by good example. What we have done is that my Permanent Secretary has arranged a meeting with the Permanent Secretaries who owe ZESCO so that they can look at the modalities of how they are going to pay. And if that is going to fail, then I shall have recourse to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning so that the money is deducted at source so that ZESCO is paid what is due to it.

Mr Chairman, we should not only be targeting Government institutions, this should be true with all customers, whether Government or private, business or otherwise so that we give ZESCO what is due to them. I suggested to Zesco that I was not for the idea of cutting power. I do not like this business of cutting power from customers, but at the same time I do not favour people who fail to pay. What we have to do is strike a balance. You know we come from a culture where we thought everything was for free and we are now entering a culture where we have to pay for the services provided to us. I also suggest that there should be a lot of sensitisation work by ZESCO. At the same time I am asking all hon. Members here to take it upon ourselves that when we are in our constituencies, we should sensitise our people in those areas so that they live under the New Culture.

Mr Sibetta: New Deal hon. Minister, mwasala.

Mr Lembalemba: Thank you, New Deal, New Deal.

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, I was at a loss when the hon. Minister said that there were some people who hae been stopping collection of dues to ZESCO. I do not think anyone in his right frame of mind can stop the collection of dues to ZESCO and I think one of these fine days, it will be important for hon. Members of Parliament to have a conducted tour to go and see the machinery that we have at Kariba North Bank …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: … and the power stations that we have all round Zambia and if we look at them, we are going to appreciate what it takes to provide us with electricity.

Mr Sibetta: Tell ZESCO that we are ready.

Mr Lembalemba: Thank you very much. If you are ready, ZESCO is also ready.

Mr L. L.  Phiri: This afternoon.

Mr Lembalemba: This afternoon, thank you very much. 

So, once we see what is involved, I think we shall appreciate what they are going through and we will be the first ones to tell our people to do what is required.

On the Kariba North Bank, the machinery is said to be obsolete, although my brother was a Permanent Secretary in the ministry, he has just forgotten that there is a power rehabilitation programme costing US $34 million, which came from the Development Bank of Southern Africa and the European Investment Bank and this programme is in place. He talked of the Zambezi River Authority that our accounts are in red. We are doing everything possible to see that things work well.

Hon. Liato talked about direction in the rural electrification. I think I had alluded to that. It was our responsibility to provide electricity to all these areas, including agriculture, which will be boosted. He bemoans the usage of diesel generators. Yes, he is very true. ZESCO is spending something like K3 billion to provide diesel throughout the country and it is very expensive. If that money was put to good use by connecting to the national grid, it could be cheaper than the diesel system of generating power. However, let me ask all hon. Members of Parliament to take it as their responsibility to also see to it that the diesel that is sent to these areas is used for the intended purpose.

In some cases, it is sold away …

Mr Sibetta: In Mufumbwe where Hon. Mushala comes from.

Mr Lembalemba: … yes, it is sold and I think … 

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: … if you can take special interest, that will be very good. He also said that we should check on management at ZESCO. Yes, we have had a lot of meetings and have been advised by the President that there should be no more excessive expenditure. So, this is in place and we are to see to it that we all abide by the directive from the President.

He also talked of political interference at ZESCO. If there was political interference there, I am yet to learn, but under my ministry, we are not going to allow any one to interfere with the operations at ZESCO unnecessarily. But when the Bills are hiked unnecessarily or something abnormal is done, I am not going to fold my arms since the House said there is political interference, but I am going to show leadership.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: But all in all, the rapport is there and I am very sure that we are doing well at the moment.

Mr L.  L.  Phiri: Not during by-elections!

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: Mwana, during by-elections, when we bring electricity to your area, you will be happy even if you are not going to vote for us as long as we have provided for the people there. We are a very generous Government and we do not go back to uproot what we have put in place.

Interruptions.

Mr Lembalemba: The hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala was bemoaning the fact that power is generated at some place in Mbala, but that  powerlines were just passing on the roof tops of their houses. This is what we want to avoid and I still agree with the sentiments expressed by Hon. Dr Machungwa that in this regard, ZESCO is doing everything possible to see to it that people have electricity in those areas but where you talked of street lights, let us make some concerted efforts. You can also approach the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Lembalemba: He also mentioned that the old transformers were much better than the new ones. While they were much more durable than the new ones, I doubt because there is improvement in technology, but what I can surely talk about is that there is a lot of insecurity; we have plenty of people who are vandalising these transformers by syphoning out the oil from these transformers. That is why we may have these breakdowns. But here again, let us not take it that it is ZESCO’s  responsibility alone, let it be for all of us as Zambians.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West was advising the House on the requirement for mini hydro stations since we have so many rivers. Yes, this is very true and correct. What we are doing in the ministry is that soon after the Budget, we shall visit all these rivers and falls so that we can have a look at them and after looking at them, we can even attract some investors to come and invest in our areas where we can have generation of power.  Hence, we can be in a position to export.

Hon. Mwale talked about rural electrification and I think I have talked a lot about it. Now, on water utility companies, they are failing to declare dividends or pay for infrastructure. All I could say is that these water utilities are in their infancy and they are trying to make roots and we are very sure that it will not be long before they start paying the dividends when they are on their own feet.

Hon. Nakatindi Wina is not in the House. Although she is not here, let me thank her for all the nice things that she said about our ministry. She said a lot of good things about the Managing Director of ZESCO. All I could say is that, that is the spirit and many of us could emulate her, but where she mentioned that ZESCO is targeting poor people than people who owe a lot of money, well, we shall check that, but I, personally, think that Zesco has been very fair. There are so many companies that have been switched off. In the same vein, I think, with collective efforts from all of us, we can have a word with our so-called poor people. If we can be paying for the services, we shall avoid unnecessary friction.

It is true that managing directors should be people with experience. We cannot afford to have people without experience, but in Zesco, I am glad to say that we have very experienced people and we have about 300 world class professionals at Zesco. I continue agreeing with the sentiments of Hon. Dr. Machungwa. Once you have a power failure and you manage to ring Zesco, at least, you are assured that in the next ten to fifteen minutes, they will be at your doorstep and that is extremely important. I, personally, think we should learn to give credit where it is due. All we should do is to encourage them. Yes, of course, where they are not doing well, we can point to them to improve, but wholesale condemnation is not correct. I think they are trying their level best.

The hon. Member talked about water in Sesheke. On water, what I have done is that I have asked the Director of Water to give me data on every borehole that has been sunk in every constituency. After we have received this data, then we are going to see which constituency received more boreholes than the other constituencies. There is no need for us to take coal to Newcastle. We should be looking at constituencies that have never had boreholes. You know we have to do it impartially. That is the only answer I can give about boreholes. It is a very good request because we need development in our areas.

There was this sentiment that some people may not be receiving development because of their political affiliation. That is not correct. As I said earlier, we in the MMD asked for multi-party politics, including most of you here. Hon. Muntanga was in the forefront and we do not know what he is doing there, he should come to this side. If we, as a nation, asked for multi-party politics and then we have people who are elected on other tickets and we fail to give what is due to them because they belong to the Opposition, I think that is a sin. At the same time, I am urging you that if you do not receive what you have asked for, especially from our ministry, it is not because you belong to the Opposition, maybe, there are no funds. As a general policy, we are going to see to it that we give to every constituency according to the requests.

The hon. Member from Chama wanted to be connected to the Malawi grid. What happened is that the line from Malawi to Lundazi was shorter. That is why it was connected earlier. The next one we are looking at is the one to Chama. Hon. Mwiimbu talked of denial of projects because they belong to the Opposition. No, that is not correct. I have made that point clear. He also said managing directors are appointed on political bias. Let me also explain this one point. 

Hon. Members, I think we should not bury our heads in the sand. Every government that comes to power has to appoint people in respective positions. If someone comes into power tomorrow, he is going to make changes and put his own people in those positions, but one thing I should tell you is that what is bad is putting a square peg in a round hole.

Interruptions.

Mr Lembalemba: Listen, hon. Members. If we look at the UNIP Government, they had our own Zambian by the name of Able Mkandawire. He was an electrical engineer, qualified. Is he your brother?

Mr P. G. Phiri: Yes, he is my younger brother.

Mr Lembalemba: That is right. He is my cousin. We had Roy Miti, he is a qualified electrical engineer, then we had John Kaluzi and today we have Robinson Mwansa, a very qualified electrical engineer.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: He is a hard worker too. He also talked of the Gwembe/Tonga project. I have told you that we are taking care of this project.

Hon. Nkumbula-Liebenthal, we are doing everything possible on boreholes and rural electrification. Hon. Sikota talked about the trip to Miami, which so many hon. Members talked about. This trip was not organised by Zesco at all. It was funded by USAID and only four people from my ministry went to this meeting and there were eleven that came from other ministries and the number was fifteen and not fifty-six. When I look at my brother, I have a lot of respect for him. He could be in a position to help us next time by coming up with the correct information. That will be very good for us all.

Hon. L. L. Phiri: Fyafula.

Mr Lembalemba: Yes, it is very true. 

In conclusion, let me talk about the privatisation of Zesco. No one is privatising Zesco.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: Privatisation means selling away everything that you have. When people are talking of consessioning, that also will have to be decided by the Cabinet. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lembalemba: Once Cabinet makes a decision, we shall come to this House and it is in this vein that I am asking all the people who are making statements on ZESCO to stop because all the statements are just misleading.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/04 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Planning Unit – K592,225,252).

Mr Silwamba (Ndola): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 3, item 01, sub-item 004 – HIV/AIDS – K41,000,000, may I have clarification.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Chairman, on sub-head 3, item 01, sub-item 004 – HIV/AIDS – K41,000,000, this is an amount which is earmarked for AIDS-related cases, especially in the areas where the ministry sends people to work in the field.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Member: What are you going to buy?

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, I wish to seek clarification on …

The Chairman: Any debate on HIV/AIDS?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, it is the intention of the Government that almost all ministries will have an HIV/AIDS awareness programme and this is that Vote.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Chairman, may I seek clarification on sub-head 3, item 01, sub-item 007 – Impact Assessment on Energy and Water Projects to the Community – K49,000,000. The hon. Minister must clarify if there are specific places which they have identified.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Chairman, this is countrywide assessment on energy.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Chairman, the explanations do not seem to be going through. Does it mean that the hon. Minister was not given notes by his Permanent Secretary where he can read from? There must be some details written.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Chairman, now I have been given the correct paper.

Laughter.

Mr Lembalemba: Instead of waffling.

Laughter.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Show leadership!

Mr Lembalemba: I would not have said I do not know, but I had to say something at least.

Mr Chairman, this provision is required to undertake impact assessment and water projects to ascertain the benefits of the projects to people in terms of food security, poverty alleviation and improve standards of leaving. This Vote has been newly introduced to effectively carry out this task.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Chairman, I wanted to find out from the Minister if that assessment will also include assessment on the depletion of trees as a result of people who continuously cut down trees for energy purposes. 

Mr Shakafuswa: Ba Bemba bonse muna siliza mitengo!

Mr Haakaloba: I know that most parts of my constituency do not have enough trees now and as a result of …

The Chairman: Order! That is a statement we should make when we come to deal with policy debate. And then the hon. Minister will take note of that. Now as we come to figures, you just seek clarification as the two Members have done. The subject you are raising is different all together. If you want, you can bring it in form of a question. You go and see members of staff, they will show you how to frame your question that will be sent to the ministry and you will have your answer.

Question put and agreed to.

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/01 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development –  Headquarters -  K4,519,488,583).

The Chairman: Before I ask for policy debate, may I just remind you hon. Members that we have four days next week and after that it will be Tuesday and Wednesday. On Thursday, we should hand over this Yellow Book to the Hon. Mr Speaker to allow the Minister of Finance and Planning to begin spending this money. In essence, we have only six days of debate and approve the Yellow Book.

Miss Nawakwi: Whose fault is that?

The Chairman: Hon. Nawakwi, you have come late and what you are asking was answered by His Honour the Vice-President this morning.

Laughter.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Mr. Chairman, hon. Members are just delayed either in the library doing research.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: That is why we have a library here at Parliament.

Laughter.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, this is our country and in moving forward, what we need in terms of direction is consultation from the Government’s side. Obviously, we are cautious of the time, but the Government delayed commencement of this House for a long time…

The Chairman: Order! You discuss the Ministry of Mines and Minerals.

Miss Nawakwi: That is what I was coming to, Sir. 

When the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development comes to wind up debate on his ministry, I would like him to give us details on the disposal of 42 per cent shares in KAGEM. We are all aware that the privatisation programme does provide for Government to hold shares on behalf of the people of Zambia and it is not mandatory that all and sundry is sold. There are some companies, which are viable and it is my belief that Kagem was a viable entity and still is. If it were not viable, Hagura would not rush to possess the 42 per cent shares that were given to them.

Mr Chairman, we would like to know how much was realized because it is somehow unusual to sell shares just before the auction of gems so that the recipient of the shares goes away and auctions your gems and pays you back from what you would have sat down and shared as profit.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, the small-scale mining industry in this country, if properly handled, could raise a total, at a rough estimate that is in all documentation, of US$300 million per annum. 

It is for that reason …

Mr Sibetta: More than the traditional exports.

Miss Nawakwi: Yes, more than the flowers, paprika and more than the copper that we cannot even export.

These small-scale mining industries could raise us enough money to cushion our misery. I was perturbed to learn that the only viable shares in our custody were deposited off hurriedly around May, 2001.

I would like to know, Mr Chairman and in winding up, the hon. Minister must come to this House and brief us as to how much he sold. From what I know, the total sale price was US$1.8 million and the buyer was asked to pay 10 per cent which is US$180,000 prior to the auctioning of the gems that were being held, which from what we gather, US$900,000 was raised. What a sale! What a profitable entity! Who would not have received?

Mr Chairman, I want to know the board members that were transacting business on our behalf. I think that this is very serious. Frankly speaking, I want to know under what circumstances the Government found it necessary to dispose shares in KAGEM.

Secondly, the Government has received money for small-scale mining. Please, if we have to see a viable industry in this sector, you need to streamline the accessing of this money by those people who are involved in small-scale mining. It is one sector that you need to literally nurse like a child and manage because it can help us raise a lot of money.

If we have our colleagues from Senegal playing around on the Copperbelt, surely, it must be something viable. We need to handle this sector on the same strength as we are handling the agricultural sector as the only assets, which are left, in our custody.

Mr Chairman, the pull out of Anglo American Corporation leaves a lot of questions. But we must learn, as we have always some of us said that if Zambians are holding these assets and they are assisted, those assets will always remain in the hands of Zambians. International capital is such that it tends to fly as and when the political situation suits them or as and when the pocket suits them. Anglo American Corporation made their first dollar in this country and it is a pity that they have not been able to honour the obligation to the Zambian people that this is the country that gave them the name Anglo America Corporation.

Sir, I recall, when they wanted to liquidate ZCCM, telling a Mr Jack Holmes that the people of Zambia will never excuse them because they made their first money from this country. It is important that it is impressed upon them that they have a corporate obligation to meet the terms of agreement. We are a poor people. We kept the mines afloat and they should not expect us to put monies so that in future, they can make profits out of them. I, personally, would prefer different arrangements of managing these assets such as ZESCO and one would not want to concession them as the hon. Minister has said, although he has said there is no debate. In such assets, you are looking at mining, electricity and putting these little assets together to earn money. In such arrangements where you do not have the money, you hire managers until such a time that you can have money. I would have expected the hon. Minister to say that given that electricity is such a critical input in mining, we are not looking at concessioning, but may be looking at some different arrangement, which gives us custody of the assets and not pass them into foreign hands.

Anglo-American Corporation pulled out of South Africa. I suspect because they did not like the new order. I think that when they move around moving capitals from one country to the other, they tend to obviously align themselves with their kith and kin and we are very sad at the turn of events.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Chairman, I would like to support this Vote. It is quite clear, although there are some fundamental issues which have been raised by the Government, which have been placed in newspapers, indicating a particular position by the Government relating to the events that surround Konkola Copper Mine (KCM).

It is not my wish, Sir, to dwell on the past, but I think the past always helps us to put things in perspective. In this same House, on this same Floor when the issues of privatising the mines were raised, a number of hon. Members made the point about our concerns, security and intentions of the investors.

Thank God! We have been vindicated by what has happened at KCM. I would like to make an appeal, Sir, to our colleagues who are in Government. When we raise points in this House, it is because we love Zambia as much as you do. It is our country as much as it is your country. We need to know. The hon. Minister needs to make it very clear to us, whether there is a policy shift on the privatisation of the mining industry and the mines, especially Konkola Copper Mines and Luanshya. Is the Government taking them over and re-nationalising or are they to just hold them for a later stage to re-privatise? What will happen? There are jobs at stake. Earnings are at stake and we need to know just what the Government’s intention is on this matter.

Hon. Nawakwi has made a point about the behaviour of Anglo American Corporation. I would like to extend this debate even further. It is not just about Anglo American Corporation, it is about foreign investment coming to our country. It is about assets of our country that are lying idle, such as those in Kafue, my own constituency, Kabwe and Ndola. This means that Zambia is not utilising its existing capacity to her fullest. 

This point has been made even by our colleagues in Government. What we want to hear from Government is: where do we go from here? We need a clear statement. The Budget, therefore, needs to reflect the financial impact of whatever decisions will be brought to this House. I think that you will find us on this side of the House, not wanting in this regard, but we need to be informed.

I noticed, Sir, that on Vote14/02- Geological Exploration, there is no Capital Expenditure and no projects whatsoever. What does this mean? Does this mean that we are not going to be looking for new mines for the whole year? Given what has happened at KCM, what are the implications for us?

Sir, I wish also to raise another point. We have still not resolved the issue of the sale of ZCCM non -core assets. What happened to these assets, such as schools, hospitals and buildings? Where do we stand? I commend the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. He has announced that he has dissolved the ZCCM Privatisation Team. That is superb. We commend him for that, but what are the implications of where we stand …

The Chairman: Order! Please, do not go until the Speaker comes.

Laughter.

(Debate adjourned)

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

______

The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 19th March, 2002.