Debates- Tuesday, 19th March, 2002

Printer Friendly and PDF


Tuesday, 19th March, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR. SPEAKER in the Chair]





Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that I have now received communication from the United National Independence Party, UNIP, informing me that Mr Lucas L. Phiri, MP, has been appointed their party whip in the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: This completes the appointments of party whips for all eligible parties in the House.




Mr Speaker: I have given permission to the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to make a ministerial statement.

Before I do so, I believe this will be the first time the majority of the hon. Members of the House will listen to a ministerial statement. I ask them to listen attentively to what the hon. Minister will say. At the end of the statement, I shall give the hon. Members, who so wish, an opportunity to raise what are known as questions on points of clarification on the issues that will be raised in the hon. Minister’s statement. Anything outside that statement will be considered irrelevant and, therefore, inadmissible. So, the hon. Members who wish to ask questions on points of clarification should listen very carefully.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi): Mr Speaker, thank you for your permission for me to make a ministerial statement. I wish to make a statement on the responsibilities of the Ministry of Works and Supply as a Road Authority, under the Roads Department, in order to clarify who is responsible for construction and maintenance of which roads in the nation.

Mr Speaker, as you may be aware, the function of road construction tend to be over-lapping and this could be the reason why hon. Members of Parliament, during their debates, are not very clear as to who is responsible for which roads in the country.

Mr Speaker, the responsibility of roads in my ministry is drawn from the Roads and Road Traffic Act, Cap. 464 of the Laws of Zambia. My ministry is responsible for roads, which are designated and gazetted as trunk roads, main roads and district roads.

1.    T stands for trunk roads.
2.    M stands for main roads.
3.    D stands for district roads.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members may wish to know that trunk roads are inter-territorial roads coming from one country into Zambia, for example, the road from Livingstone to Nakonde is a trunk road. Main roads are those joining one region to another, for example, the road from Chipata to Lundazi connecting the provincial capital to the district. District roads join one district to another, for example, the road from Choma to Namwala. All other rural roads and classified roads fall under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and other agencies.

Mr Speaker, those that fall under the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources are those roads that fall under the national parks and game management areas. The ministries mentioned are also responsible for the funding of those roads. There are also community feeder roads, bridges and culverts that are supported and directly funded by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, by the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF) under the Micro-Projects Unit, the total cost of which was US$2,698,050.

Mr Speaker, another key player is the road sector in the Ministry of Communications and Transport, which is responsible for transport policy matters. Under this ministry is the National Roads Board which finances road maintenance through fuel levies. Mpika, Kasama and Siavonga Roads under ROADSIP 1 are examples of maintenance of roads funded by the National Roads Board. Once funded, the responsibility of supervision falls under my ministry. The rehabilitation of the Great North Road was also carried out under the ROADSIP programme.

  It is my sincere hope that as Members of Parliament make their contribution towards the debate on Estimates of Expenditure for the ministries, they will find this information helpful and that they would be able to debate effectively, knowing clearly well which ministry is responsible for which roads.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that these institutions which do overlap, arrangements of road network will shortly be put to Cabinet for consideration in order to overcome the duplication. My colleague in the Ministry of Communications and Transport is co-ordinating the introduction of the transport policy.

Finally, I would like to inform the hon. Members of this House that very soon, my ministry will be hosting a website and the site address will be: Hon. Members will be encouraged to access any information they may require from this address.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now offered a chance to ask questions on points of clarification on the statement by the hon. Minister.

  Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, the clarification by the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, to some extent, is as clear as mud. I wish to seek further clarification in terms of the M8 Road and under which ministry it falls.

Mr Speaker: The question is not very clear. Could you go over it again?

Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, under what category does the Mutanda/Chavuma M8 Road fall?

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, it falls under ‘M.’ It is a main road and maintaining it is my responsibility.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, may I know what criteria will be used to channel money from the Roads Board without political interference derailing projects.

Mr Speaker: That is irrelevant.


Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, may I know in which category the road from Solwezi to Kipushi Falls.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, that road is ‘M’ road. It comes from trunk road to the boarder.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, we have a road which has a T-junction from Vubwi and joins Malawi. In what category is that road?

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, firstly, I have not been to Vubwi but …


Dr Sondashi: … the way the hon. Member describes it, it looks like it might fall under the main road if it is not a trunk road which comes from one country, crossing over to another country. It sounds like an ‘M’ road.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, the hon. Members of this august House will recall that when I presented the Budget early this month, I indicated that our economy would be steered towards achieving micro-economic targets with the ultimate aim of reducing poverty. Specifically, I had mentioned that we intend to attain GDP growth of approximately 4 per cent, achieve inflation rates of not more than 13 per cent by the end of the year and limit the Budget deficit to 3 per cent of GDP.

Mr Speaker, therefore, the Budget expenditure and the supporting revenue measures were worked out in such a manner that the objects I stated are actually met. Furthermore, the revenue measures that I had presented in this august House were as a result of a consultative process with all relevant stakeholders, including the general public over a period of five months.

Mr Speaker, in the event that an amendment is made to either the revenue side or expenditure side of the Budget, there is need to make corresponding adjustments on either side, failure to which it will not be possible for us to implement all the programmes outlined in the Budget as well as the macro-economic objectives.

Mr Speaker, one such change was made last week in this House which involved a further reduction in Excise Duty on diesel and this resulted in a further reduction of revenue to the tune of K41 billion. 

Mr Speaker, as I have explained earlier, this implies that we need to make another adjustment so as to ensure that our earlier plan is not derailed. In this regard, I have considered several options on both revenue and expenditure sides. With regard to the revenue side, the Treasury can have recourse to one or two options. The first option would be to increase taxes that would raise the revenue by K41 billion.

Sir, this is not a favourable option due to the following reasons:

(a)    The Treasury has received numerous submissions from the community and the general public over high taxes and the need to reduce them so as to reduce the cost stock production.

(b)    The amount involved is too big and would require a higher increase in taxes.

Mr Speaker, the option on the revenue side is to borrow money from the banking sector. Once again, this would not be a prudent move on our part for the following reasons:

(a)    The deficit will end up being higher than the 3 per cent that I announced in the Budget which, in turn, would trigger off higher than projected inflation.

(b)    The interest to be paid on such funds will not be sustained by the Budget, given the existing levels over the past borrowings, which are already too high, and this would, once again, have an adverse effect on the inflation.

(c)    The act of borrowing from the banking sector will cloud out investment that is so badly needed by the private sector. It will be difficult for the commercial banks to reduce the lending rates to the agricultural sector as per plan.

On the expenditure side, the measure would entail reducing expenditures amounting to K41 billion. This, Sir, would not be favourable as this would mean curtailing the programmes that are expected to bring about the much-needed development to our country.

Mr Speaker, it is in this vein that I have put forward a counter proposal for reducing Excise Duty on diesel from 60 per cent to 45 per cent as earlier announced in my Budget on 1st March, 2002.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now given an opportunity to raise questions on points of clarification which may arise from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s ministerial statement which has just been made.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): I wonder whether the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and his Treasury did attempt to analyse the impact of the reduction on duty on alcohol to the national Budget in relation to the decision passed by this House last week to reduce duty on diesel.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I think I did even explain in this august House the impact of that reduction. The first point I made was that the reduction would have no effect on our revenues since the revenue was guaranteed by the clear beer industry.

Secondly, I did explain that all the beer consumed could actually be produced in Lusaka and if we reduce the volume, then there would be no reason for operating in Ndola and that if we did go that way, we would have to close the brewery in Ndola at a cost of several hundred jobs.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): The reduction in the Excise Duty for diesel will come from an office which is very much irrelevant and that is of District Administrators. If you go into the Yellow Book, you will discover …

Mr Speaker: Order! Can you, please, ask your question, no debate is allowed. May you please simply ask a question for the hon. Minister to clarify.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Thank you so much, Mr Speaker. Why can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning not get money from the Office of the District Administrators in this case?

Mr Kasonde: Perhaps, I should take the opportunity of answering that question by stating quite clearly that the only area of the Budget that we could effect reductions in without upsetting the various imperatives I referred to would be the movable assets. So, I think that if you wish us to go that way, we can remove the Constituency Development Funds, Motor Vehicle Funds and. …


Mr Kasonde: Sir, I am perfectly willing to go that route.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, may I have clarification in terms of procedure. I was going to ask because I am not very conversant. Is it in order for the hon. Minister to bring back something that was already resolved in the last sitting?

Mr Speaker: That sounds like a point of order which requires the Chair to rule on.

The hon. Member for Chongwe is referring to a vote that took place in the Chamber on Friday last week. That was not the House that voted. That was the Committee of the whole House. The House is now meeting and, I believe, in due course, we shall be considering that very issue as the House with the Speaker presiding. Therefore, what is being considered here is quite in order.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): I just wanted to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the ministerial statement is, in fact, a policy statement on the amendment that is in our folders.

Mr Kasonde: I think it is always fair to give hon. Members of Parliament as much information as possible so that they can make balanced decisions. I think I will be failing in my duty if I did not explain the full implications of the decisions they made in Committee.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister reconcile his statement to Standing Order No. 55 and I quote, Sir, with your permission:

    ‘No amendment shall be moved to any party of a question after a latter part thereof has been amended or after a question has been voted upon on an amendment thereto.’

Can the hon. Minister reconcile his statement to the Standing Order guiding this House.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Luena is very cleverly raising a point of order on the Chair. In fact, …


Mr Speaker: …not on what the hon. Minister has said.

Normally, I should not entertain that kind of oblique point of order. But I would like to point out that the point of order the hon. Member for Luena was raising refers to decisions made by the House. Decisions made in any Committee may be visited or revisited by this House. That is the clarification and the difference it makes. I am glad the hon. Member for Luena is, in fact, studying his regulations. I would like to call on all hon. Members to do the same, but correctly in so studying the Standing Orders.

Mr Samukonga (Chawama): I wish to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether he has actually taken into consideration the opportunity cost of raising duty on petroleum products, vis-à-vis the operations of industry in Zambia. I am saying so, Sir, because, in fact, duty on petroleum products amounts up to 82.5 per cent, making our petroleum products the most expensive in the region. That is why most of these airlines do not even uplift fuel from here and when I look at this case, I find that paraffin has been affected. And this is one of the products that is used by the majority of the poor.

Mr Speaker: Order! You have already asked your question. 

Mr Samukonga: Yes. What I am trying to say is that has he analysed the opportunity costs of raising the duties on petroleum products vis-à-vis the rivatilisation of industry because industry is unable to afford petroleum products and lubricants because they are high in the region?

Mr Speaker: We ignore the fact that the hon. Member has debated his question. But for the benefit of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, it can be answered.

Mr Kasonde: A comprehensive policy review has been made before arriving at this question, Sir.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Could the hon. Minister advise the House whether he has considered, in the measure under discussion, the closure of some of the Missions Abroad which do not add value to Zambia’s representation? Is there going to be reduction in ministerial perks to match those of Members of Parliament as all of us should make some savings?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member has asked two questions. But the hon. Minister may choose to answer one of the two questions he desires.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, Missions Abroad are extremely important for Zambia. The relations that we maintain are in the interest of improving the quality of life of all Zambians. Without our representation abroad, we would have to travel a thousand times more to accomplish tasks that are being accomplished by our representatives in Missions Abroad.

I thank you, Sir.




Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee to scrutinise the appointment of Hon Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima and Hon. Mr Justice Peter Chitengi as Supreme Court Judges for the First Session of the Ninth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 15th March, 2002.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Mr Chungu (Bahati): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, the terms of reference of your Committee were to scrutinise the appointments of Hon. Madam Justice Irene Chirwa Mambilima and Mr Justice Peter Chitengi to serve as Supreme Court Judges, pursuant to the provisions of Article 93(2) of the Constitution of Zambia, Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia, which reads, and I quote:

‘Judges of the Supreme Court shall, subject to ratification by the National Assembly, be appointed by the President.’

Your Committee, Sir, in ensuring that the nominees did not have any adverse security, criminal or, indeed, drug-related cases against them, sought the expert services of the following Government investigation agencies:

(i)    Zambia Police Service;
(ii)    Anti-Corruption Commission;
(iii)    Drug Enforcement Commission; and
(iv)    Office of the President, Special Division.

Mr Speaker, the confidential reports to your committee received from the four investigation agencies of Government, indicated that the nominees did not have any adverse, corrupt, criminal, security or drug-related offences against them. However, the nominee, Hon. Mr Justice Peter Chitengi was investigated by the Anti-Corruption Commission in 1995 on charges of corruption and the findings were in the negative.

Mr Speaker, your previous Select Committee, when ratifying Judge Chitengi for the position of High Court Judge, also dealt with the same matter. Your current committee consider this a non-issue.

On the issue raised by the Office of the President (Special Division) on the disparity of the birth place of the nominee, your committee satisfied themselves that Hon. Mr Justice Peter Chitengi was born in Sachikatu Village in Nkalwashi area in Kabompo District.

Your committee also sought the services of legal bodies to determine the professional suitability of the nominees, that is, the Law Association of Zambia and the Judicial Service Commission.

Sir, both the Law Association of Zambia and the Judicial Service Commission highly recommended the professional suitability of the nominees, stating that they had the relevant qualifications, experience and integrity to serve as Supreme Court Judges.

Sir, your committee are happy to report that the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the President, on behalf of the appointing authority, briefed your committee on the merits of the appointment of the nominees. In his submission, the hon. Deputy Minister also informed your committee that the nominees were of high integrity, adequately qualified and experienced to serve as Supreme Court Judges.

The Judicial Service Commission also recommended the suitability of the two nominees. The Secretary to the Commission stated that both nominees were highly qualified, experienced and were result-oriented Judges and had served at the Bar and on the Bench for a long time.

Your committee, Sir, also interviewed the nominees and examined all the evidence, both oral and written, in respect of them. They also carefully examined the candidates’ curriculum vitae. Your committee’s assessment is that both nominees are well qualified, experienced and competent to serve as Supreme Court Judges.

Mr Speaker, your committee established that the nominees are eminent Judges and possess vast experience, which will enable them discharge their duties diligently as Supreme Court Judges. From the foregoing, your committee are comfortable with the nominees and, therefore, unanimously recommend to this august House that they both be ratified as Supreme Court Judges.

In conclusion, allow me, Sir, to make a few additional observations that your committee made during their deliberations.

   Firstly, Sir, your Committee wish to express some concerns on the ratification process of Presidential appointees as provided for in the Constitution which, at the moment, does not provide for a wider and through scrutiny in terms of public participation. It is our hope that the reforms of opening up Parliament to the public will be expedited in order to rectify this anomaly.

   Your committee further recommend that communication between the appointing authority and Parliament regarding ratifications should be facilitated early enough in order to allow for ample time and wider consultation.

   Finally, Sir, your committee wish to record and express their appreciation for the advice and services rendered by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and for the submissions received from Government investigation agencies; the Law Association of Zambia, the Judicial Service Commission and the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the President.

   Above all, your committee wish to express their profound gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for appointing them to serve on this very important committee. We trust that this report and recommendations therein will receive the unanimous support of the House.

   Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

   Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

   Mr Chungu(Bahati ): Now, Sir.

   Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Bahati.

   Mr Chungu: Thank you, Sir. In seconding this important motion, so ably moved by the Chairman, let me take this opportunity to also express my gratitude to you, Sir, the Clerk of the National Assembly, and your staff for the guidance that was provided to your Select Committee during their deliberations. 

   I wish, Sir, to also pay tribute to the Chairman of your Select Committee for the impartial manner in which he conducted the deliberations of your committee. Though your committee comprised Members of various parties, your committee deliberated in the spirit and manner that helps to make recommendations which, in the opinion of your Committee, are in the best interest of our nation and the Judiciary in particular 

   Mr Speaker, the Chairman has already been exhaustive. Therefore, Sir, I will only highlight a few salient points that your committee observed. Sir, your committee learnt that the establishment of the Supreme Court is nine, but currently has six Judges. Once the two appointees to the Supreme Court are ratified, the Bench will have a total of eight Judges. This state of affairs is as the result of the demise of Judges Bweupe, Chaila and Muzyamba. 

   However, Sir, even when the Bench will now have eight Supreme Court Judges, the actual number of Judges who normally and actually sit on the Bench in the Supreme Court is six. This is so because one of the Judges is on leave due to international engagement while the other is serving as Chairperson of the Human Rights Commission and may not be available to sit on the Bench all the time. 

   In addition, Sir, your committee learnt that the High Court has an establishment of thirty Judges, but currently has twenty-six serving Judges, including the nominees seeking ratification. Their ratification by this House will, therefore, increase the number of vacancies to six. There is, therefore, urgent need to fill these vacancies which have affected the dispensation of justice on both the Supreme and High Court Benches. 

   Furthermore, your committee observed that the appointment of Judges to other institutions of Government has created vacancies which have resulted in the current backlog of cases and slow dispensation of justice.

   For example, there are two High Court Judges at the Electoral Commission and one is on an assignment in the Gambia. As per the provisions of the Constitution, these Judges are still to be considered as part of the Bench. In addition, lack of adequate facilities in the courts of law has also contributed  to the backlog of work. 

   In this respect, your committee, Sir, recommend that the law on tenure of office of Judges should be revisited in order to address the situation where Judges who take up appointments or secondments to other institutions in the Government system do not create vacancies that can not be easily filled. Your committee further recommend that the Judiciary devise ways and means of expediting the delivery of justice in good time. Your committee also, Sir, call for immediate improvement and expansion of the current court facilities.

   Sir, your committee was dismayed to learn that Judges’ emoluments were no better than, not only those of top civil servants in Government, but also lawyers in private practice who even earn more. With this scenario, Sir, the Judiciary cannot attract qualified men and women from the private sector to the Bench. This also makes those on the Bench to be susceptible to corruption.

   Sir, the men and women currently on the Bench are making a great sacrifice to the nation and their emoluments should, therefore, reflect in this aspect.

   In conclusion, Sir, your committee implores the Judicial Service Commission to always consider gender balancing, whenever possible, when appointing Judges to the Bench.

   Sir, I beg to second that the two nominees, Hon. Madam Justice Ireen Chirwa Mambilima and Hon. Mr Justice Peter Chitengi be ratified by this House as Supreme Court Judges.

   I thank you, Sir.

   Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central):Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for allowing me to debate on the motion and wish to totally support the two nominees who have been brought forward. 

   Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

   I know the two Judges to be people of integrity. For me I would not have been in this House last year if I were not in contact with these two Hon. Judges through the courts of law.

   Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, I also wish to thank you for appointing our colleagues who did a very good job on this motion. My hope, Sir, is that in future consideration must be made so that on such important committees, at least, there is a person from each of the provinces. What I noticed was that some provinces were not included to participate in the ratification of their Judges.

   Mr Speaker, I also just wanted to make some corrections on the submissions on page 2 by the security wings …


   Mr Tetamashimba: … I come from North-Western Province. Mr Speaker, the records that we live behind will also come in contact with our children who are growing in
schools and it is just fair and important that when we put up reports, we must state the correct names of the institutions that appear before us.

   According to our Constitution, Article 108, Sir, there is no Office of the President – Special Division, what is there is the Zambia State Intelligence Service and I would be grateful if my colleagues would make those changes so that our children read and get the correct names of our institutions.

   Mr Speaker, I also wanted to make a comment again, on the Zambia Police Service. There is no Zambia Police Service in this country. According to our Constitution, it is the Zambia Police Force and it is under Act 105. 

   Mr Speaker, I heard attentively from the mover when he stated that this corruption investigation was also an issue some time back when he was being recommended to be Judge. My wish is that in future, when we have people who have done so well like these two, especially my traditional cousin, Justice Chitengi who performed well as a High Court Judge, it is not fair to the integrity of the person to start referring to something that was again brought before this House and when you start talking about it, it will sound as if it is something new.

   Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Tetamashimba: I just hope in future we should not be bringing such issues before the House because they tend to dent the character of credible Judges like the ones before us today.

   Mr Speaker, another thing that I wanted to comment on again, on my traditional cousin …

   Mr Mabenga: Nafifula!

   Mr Tetamashimba: … Tafifulile iyo! 


   Mr Tetamashimba:….is where our security wings should be finding out where the man was born when again this was done before. I must appeal, Sir, that the Government should look and attend to the recommendations of our colleagues. Our Judges are not being looked after properly. And according to this report, I read that that is the more reason why many positions are not being filled because most of their colleagues tend to go into private practice. 

   So, I would urge our Government if they can try as much as possible to give the Supreme Court Judges and even those in the lower ranks, at least, something that can entice them to stay and perform their duties for the rest of their lives. I think as at now, you will not find a Judge buying a new car and I think the Camries they are driving, they would want, when they are retired, to be given as their gratuity because whatever they earn cannot make them buy the Camries.

   So, you can see that from whatever they get, they cannot afford to buy a new car. So, really this is a very good recommendation, which has come from our colleagues that we need to look after our Judges in both Supreme and High Courts well by giving them a living wage.

   Mr Speaker, I thank you.

   Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I support the motion on the Floor. However, I am a little concerned at the submissions made by the Director-General of the Zambia State Intelligence Service. Sir, if I recall, this is the second time that the Zambia State Intelligence Service has made a remark such as this where, in fact, the exact remark is on page 5:

“Judge Chitengi was susceptible to corruption.” 

   Mr Speaker, that was a very serious statement to make and I would have thought that the Zambia State Intelligence Service would have been more professional in the way that they analyse and bring out issues as they make such statements. I recall in another ratification process, though I cannot remember what it was, but even at that time, your committee ignored the submissions of the Zambia State Intelligence Service. 

   So, I would like to implore the Government to ensure that there is professionalism in the method and manner in which they conduct themselves because here we are about to ratify two of the most important positions in the Judiciary – to the Supreme Court and if that ratification process is dented by careless and unsubstantiated statements by the Government’s own Zambia State Intelligence Service, it does you a great deal to even support such a service.

   I thank you, Sir.

   Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much and I stand to support the motion on the Floor. I have nothing to add to it except that I may be allowed to use this chance to give my maiden speech, which I have been waiting for, for a long time …

   Mr Speaker: Order! Unless, you are going to address the motion before the Floor. No maiden speeches on this subject are permitted, none whatsoever. Are you going to support or oppose the motion?

   Mr Kapita: (Mwinilunga West): Mr Speaker, it is just that I have not been given an opportunity to give my maiden speech, but I support the motion on the Floor.


   Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, I will be very brief indeed in winding up the motion. Sir, I wish to thank all hon. Members who have debated in support of this very important motion. We, in your Committee, Sir, feel very encouraged by the support that the motion has received. I would like to agree with the sentiments raised by hon. Member for Solwezi Central that once an official of Government has been investigated and the docket closed, it should not recur, but in this particular case, Sir, when we invited the Investigator-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission to submit his report, that is the report that was presented before the committee and this is the reason why it is reflected in our report.

   Similarly, I also wish to support the sentiments raised by the hon. Member for Lusaka Central that the Zambia State Intelligence Service report should also, I think, be presented in a more professional manner in the sense that on this particular question, they also repeated what had been reported by another investigation wing. They had nothing of their own in terms of a substantive report on one of the Judges. 

So, Sir, in conclusion, I wish to just state that the comments were very worthwhile. I do hope that hon. Members of Government have taken note of the sentiments that have been raised to make improvements in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.





APPENDIX II – (Section 6) – (Excise Tariff)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in Appendix II on Page 55, under paragraph (b) (ii), in line 3, by the deletion of ‘30%’ and the substitution therefor of ‘45%’.

Mr Speaker, the amendment I have proposed totals K41 billion which gap arose from the earlier amendment. Given this scenario, I reiterate my position that the Excise Duty be maintained at 45 per cent as earlier proposed in my Budget Speech.

Mr Speaker, it is extremely important that we do not dislocate the Budget. It is extremely important that we retain the proposal.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity. Normally, when the price of a commodity has gone down, the sales go up and it means that the profit is higher. In this case, I think that when the price of diesel goes down, a lot of people will buy a lot of diesel, farmers will benefit and many other people in the agricultural sector.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Banda: So, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning clarify how he will make this loss of K41 billion.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor.

I would like to get a very serious explanation from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning why, for a very long time, our country seems to be the only one where fuel prices are extremely high. Malawi is very close to us in Chipata, the price across there is K2,000 per litre. If you go to Zimbabwe, it is the same. In fact, in Mozambique, it is about K1,500 equivalent per litre. Why is our country charging very high fuel prices?

Mr Chitalu M. Sampa (Kalulushi): Mr Speaker, considering the fact that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning this afternoon has explained fully the implications of this Budget, as Zambians, we should understand the problems that we are going to face if this amendment is not adopted. I, therefore, support the proposal by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because of the seriousness of the drop in finances. I urge my colleagues to support this proposal by the hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, I wish to start by explaining some of the implications of the amendment in a bit of detail. I think the Budget, as presented three weeks ago, has three key components. That is the revenue, the expenditure and a deficit. Variations can come from revenue and the three components in revenue are direct taxes, Excise Duty, VAT and a minor one of non-tax revenue. We already have limitations because we cannot continue to increase direct taxes and Excise Duty, under debate. VAT, at 17.5 per cent, appears to be a little bit high. We are working on that.

On the expenditure side, Mr Speaker, there are two broad components, recurrent and capital. In recurrent expenditure, there is very little you can do because it deals mainly with emoluments and things like that. It only leaves you with capital expenditure and when you look at our Budget, the bulk of the capital expenditure is in the delivery of social services. Only a small component is in movable assets. So, adjustments in capital expenditure are also very limited, Sir. 

When we come to the third component, which is a deficit, increasing the deficit will require this Government to borrow money. What that means is that we shall have to pay interest and, therefore, we shall have to make further provisions in the Budget and the Budget will further be unbalanced.

I was very encouraged by the contribution made by Hon. Tetamashimba that our colleagues from the other side did not have major difficulties with the Budget except only for two items which did not include Excise Duty. I wish to say that if we lose K41 billion, first of all, the Budget will not be balanced and secondly, the commitments that we made to the nation, in terms of delivery of social services, will not be achieved and we would have let our people down. In addition, there is, perhaps, the simple arithmetic that when you reduce the price, demand grows.

That simple arithmetic from ZRA has got a timing effect, by the time the demand builds up, Zambia Revenue Authority would have lost the necessary income to support the Budget. So, that will not create the necessary revenue that we need to balance the Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I do not support the idea of adjusting what the hon. Members did through voting for the simple reason that the economy of Zambia and any other economy is oil-driven. In as far as our situation is concerned, Mr Speaker, it would be prudent that we minimise the cost of production, precisely, in the agricultural sector. There was excitement when the papers reported that the price of diesel, through an amendment to the Customs and Excise Duty Bill, had been effected. 

It, therefore, means that we have already laid a strong ground for our farmers, business communities and transporters in specific terms that the price for diesel has come down. It is, therefore, very important for this House to be firm. Last week’s decision should be respected.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Mr Speaker, it is a long time since we left economics classrooms, so our minds are a bit rusty. Nonetheless, when I was at the University of Zambia, I recall that in Ben Turok’s tutorial class - Ben Turok is, now, a Member of Parliament in South Africa – I was taught that the primary cause, in Africa, especially of inflation, is lack of productivity.

Why do we have shortfalls in production and, therefore, inflationary pressures on consumption? It is because we have a high input cost in these countries and to be specific in Zambia. Take me, a poor farmer, for example. I am growing bananas in Gotagota, Mr Speaker, and I hope that the Committee on Agriculture, Lands and Co-operatives will take time to visit my little plot. I am irrigating using diesel.

Mr Speaker, it is a nightmare, a bag of fertiliser costs US$55 and yet, someone here thinks that the only reason we have no money as a country is because we can narrow our argument to what Government has to spend. We do not count our cost of money as being related to the importation of 200 tones of bananas every week in foreign exchange. Would it not be better for us to support a farmer who is trying to grow bananas by giving them a lower input cost in fertiliser and diesel?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, unless we lower input cost in manufacturing, agriculture and construction, we are never going to get rid of inflation. It is a simple economic equation. High inflation is always a symptom of low productivity because of non-availability of inputs and commodities. When Ben Turok realised that some of us could not conceptualise high inflation in equation terms, he said inflation means too much money chasing too few goods. So, if you have to resolve the issues of inflation, you must introduce too many goods chasing too little money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Correct!

Miss Nawakwi: It is a simple mathematical equation.

Mr Speaker, I do appreciate the difficulties that my hon. Colleague is faced with. I was in that chair. It is a painful arrangement to have your structure of the Budget changed at this hour. But, that is the point that I was making when Government was heckling me last time.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Miss Nawakwi: There is a way that we can work …

Mr Mushala: On a point or order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order!

It seems to me that the House is debating a very important amendment and all points of order should be reserved until a particular Member, himself or herself, asks for the Floor to contribute.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I will not allow debate through points of order.

Having said so, we will continue to hear from the hon. Member for Munali and then one other Member on my left before I pick three Members from the Government side, to balance. After that, we will make a decision. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Long live the Chair.

Miss Nawakwi: I thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to draw the attention of this House to what I was trying to state last week that there are issues where the Leader of the House needs to consult us. He could have briefed us about the statement being made today, by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, in the Amphi-theatre. The Leader of the House is a Leader of the House and not a leader of Mwadya Mweka Daddy, (MMD) in short.


Mr Chisala: Is that the lady who was in the MMD for the last ten years?

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, I refer you to the hon. Minister’s Speech and may I emphasise the point that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning came to this House with this information. The hon. Leader of the House could have requested the House to recess for fifteen minutes, gone and briefed us elsewhere and we would not have been in this mess that the Government has put us today.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: On page 2 of the hon. Minister’s Speech, he says, and I quote …


Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, I beg for your protection. He says, and I quote:

‘The objectives were predicated upon increased investment in the mining and tourism sectors …’

We are aware that the mining sector is paying no tax.

Mr Sibetta: And it is consuming more diesel.

Miss Nawakwi: I am a signatory to instruments that gave Sun International duty rebates. He talks of a stable exchange rate and stable energy and food prices. How is the hon. Minister going to ensure stable energy and food prices when the fuel costs are so high with an appropriate and tight fiscal policy? There comes the problem.

In Africa, we think that we can adjust by squeezing ourselves. Do not target zero inflation. You have to discretionary spend and spend a little bit before you can start to tighten your belt. You have to spend, hon. Minister, to give some fertiliser to my grandmother in Nega Village before she can eat. You have to spend a little bit to tar Mpulungu/Nyala/Malawi Road before we can see any growth. Therefore, your own prescription is to look at what you did on the next page. On item 15 on page 3, Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister says, 

    ‘Higher than anticipated expenditure on food imports …’

He prefers to pay the South African farmers. On wage adjustments to the Public Service, Sir, may I tell this House that the only well paid public servants are Permanent Secretaries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Correct!

Miss Nawakwi: The poor Office Orderly takes home K50,000.

Mr Speaker, all the Permanent Secretaries are on contract and every third year they get more than K100 million as gratuity. Do you mean to tell me that the directors of departments are not civil servants? How about nurses? They need better pay. The hon. Minister goes on to say that during the latter part of last year, he had to incur and overshoot by 4.7 of what he had planned as deficit. The former minister came to this House and said that this is a new order and I think the speech was very nice and captivating. 

He said he was only going to spend 3.3 of GDP as deficit financing. What did we end up with and what was the explanation by the hon. Minister? He said it was because of the OAU and the debts and because of the shortfall in balance of payments. And yet, Sir, I did request and I had hoped that the hon. Minister would brief us, as to who had authorised the 1.4 per cent of deficit financing.

   Mr Speaker, while we are in this august House we are hon. Members and when we speak here, we seek your protection. We certainly do not want to be harassed at our homes for bringing items to this House which should not be spoken. Sir, the 1.4 per cent of deficit financing that was incurred last year were the moneys which were channeled through some accounts to some centre in the Bahamas. Sir, if we are going to siphon public funds under the cover of the Security and State Act, then we are not a nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, we are all aware why our first President introduced financing of the Army and the police during the Smith regime through the Office of the President. It was to cover the Budget but during the last ten years, that was now a conduit for siphoning public money. Public money, whether taken to the Office of the President still remains public funds.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, this House must, at some appropriate time, bring an amendment that unless we do not vote for that money, then we do not need to know where it goes.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Sir, you need to protect your Members. We detest that when Members come to this House and as soon as we leave this Floor, we are being visited by Ngangula and being told that we are involved in espionage. I think this is a shame and an embarrassment and so, we need to be protected.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko (Senanga): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Mr Speaker, for ten years, this country has been known as a begging country. We have been trotting from here to there asking for food to feed our people and time has come when we think that this should not be the case or should be reduced. People should be able to produce food for themselves to eat. This is the opportune time. Sir, there is no way we can run away from this doldrum of begging for food from other countries other than improving on the agricultural sector.

Mr Speaker, we want to improve on the agricultural sector so that we go back to the 1980s where we had enough to eat and we had just to request a surplus to subsidise our people. There is no need again for us after voting to come back and say, we should increase. Where are we going and where are we taking this country? The President has said that this country should be declared corruption free. Now, if we do not have enough food, are we able, really, to eradicate this corruption? Sir, a hungry stomach will always remain a corrupt stomach.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko: Mr Speaker, when we look at the issue of diesel, we should take into account our people. The people in the rural areas are failing to come and see their children here in Lusaka where you are hiding. You are hiding here in Lusaka and you do not want your parents to visit you because transport has become very expensive and this is one of the reasons why the price of diesel should be reduced. You should not continue enjoying good food with your wives and children when your parents are suffering in the villages.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko: Sir, we are in order and we should proceed with a 30 per cent reduction of diesel to enable our people travel from place to place and to give them a chance to produce more food for everybody to eat. Time is gone. One hon. Member said that we should direct our efforts to retrieve the US$90 million which has gone to the Bahamas so that we can help the people of Zambia other than fighting for something that we have already done.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for recognising my attempts. Sir, I seem to recollect that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did make a provision in his Budget to look after the small-scale farmer, the emerging farmer, the commercial farmer and in so doing, this was to balance what he planned in the reduction of diesel.

Mr Speaker, there is already a provision for incentives in order to encourage production by our small-scale farmers. Sir, I also recall that it is my colleagues on your left who said that after all it is not the small-scale farmer who owns a tractor. They actually supported the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that there was enough provision to give us a kick-start in our quest to reduce poverty and increase production in the agricultural sector. So, in my view, I support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that there is already enough provision to make agriculture our cornerstone of development in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the President’s Office (Mr Chitala): Mr. Speaker, I thank you again for recognising me and I want to be very deliberate here in my contribution to the debate.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, in his Budget, told us and the nation that he was going to reduce this tax from 60 per cent to 45 per cent and that by so doing, he was going to lose revenue in excess of K41 billion. This is the beginning of a process of lessening the suffering of our people.


Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, we know that our people are very heavily taxed but we cannot go to the limit and not have resources to fund our Budget. The hon. Minister was in order when he said that he was beginning and next year he will go even further. For as long as we go about governing this country properly, things will begin to work. Please, allow us. Give President Mwanawasa and his administration a chance to provide relief food to our people.


Mr Chitala: Now, when some hon. Members say that we further reduce by another 15 per cent, what this means is that we shall lose in excess of K83 billion of the Budget in total.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Chitala: In other words, you want us to bash the Budget even before we begin our New Deal administration.


Mr Chitala: You should know that the cost of fuel in this country has been high and it is not because of taxation but of what the former Minister of Energy and Water Development, Hon. Nawakwi, knows - abuse of office and she knows it.


Mr Chitala: We are going to cure this cancer. There will now be transparency in the real true sense of the word.


Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, if we do not support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to do this, we will not only be setting a very bad precedence. We will not only be doing injustice to this Budget but also to the New Deal administration. May I ask all of us to search our hearts. This Budget must go to serve our people who have been living in poverty for too long, not just in certain areas of growth.


Mr Chitala: I agree with Hon. Nawakwi when she said that we must emphasise on growth, and that deficit financing must be used to finance growth and not consumption and …

Hon. Opposition Members: OAU!


Mr Chitala: … unnecessary expenditures.


Mr Chitala: I know, most of you agree with me.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!


Mr Chitala: The loss of K83 billion will mean that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning must decide ways of cutting on the Budget. As he already told you, to put us back on course to ensure that the Budget is on course, he may cut on some expenditure items such as vehicle loans for hon. Members to which I, personally would be willing to forego.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Chitala: How are you hon. …

Mr Speaker: Order! There is no need for me to reiterate the fact that this is an august House, which listens to one another when one of its hon. Members contributes. I have sat here since 1430 hours and I have listened patiently to those who have contributed to do so. I am your only audience. As each one of you contributes, please address me. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Accordingly, none of the rest here should directly heckle any contributor. The contributor and all of you must address me. I am your only audience, that is why I am I am sitting in the middle. Ultimately, I will enable you to make a decision. I will not make the decision. This is why, even though I have received so many requests to contribute, I see very little value in the House continuing to repeat itself, each side entrenching the viewpoint it has assumed. We have to resolve this matter. It was debated before in Committee exhaustively and it has been, from what I can hear now, debated exhaustively in the House. We will have to make a decision and make progress.

May we, listen to the debate of the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the President.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I just want to pose one question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Chitala: To myself.

How is Hon. Sichinga or Hon. …

Hon. Members: Address the Chair!


Mr Chitala: Very soon, most of us will be going to your constituencies. If, for instance, you are given a GX and go to Nakonde or Lufwanyama and to your constituency and visit your medical clinic and find that there is no medicine yet you are driving the expensive GX, what are the people going to think about you? That you denied them K83 billion for medicine for you to enjoy in your GX. No, this should not be allowed.

I implore you, hon. Members, to please support the hon. Minister so that we can make progress.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, the issue on the Floor is very complex but yet it has to be resolved by supporting the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. 

Mr Speaker, this economy is 40 per cent donor driven and in the hon. Minister’s Budget statement, he ably took into account what this Government would like to do for the people of Zambia. It includes that K83.6 billion which is now under threat.

Sir, it is incredible that a country such as Zambia, which is landlocked and very difficult to operate from because of the nature of our geographical position, its prices now can be compared to countries like Malawi and Mozambique. Mozambique is next to the port.


The Vice-President: This Government, including all hon. Members of Parliament, have made commitments to their constituencies to take development there. Those constituencies will not be developed if there is no money. As one of my colleagues has said, as Leader of the House, I would like to see that once we rise, hon. Members go back to their constituencies and lead development efforts. It is now being difficult because, certainly, as the hon. Deputy Minister has stated, one of the things that shall not be done now will be to look after the interests of hon. Members of Parliament.

I am disappointed to see that there will now be no money for Constituency Development Fund and for hon. Members’ transport to get back to their constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: That is what it means! What sort of leadership shall this be that we shall look after ourselves and forget the people who brought us here?


The Vice-President: I am aware that some of the hon. Members are being very selfish because they have transport whereas the majority are new and do not have transport.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President: But that is exactly what it means.


The Vice-President: I heard on radio the other day how one hon. Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe was made to sign some document with his Chief that he will bring development. If he did not, he told the Chief that he should pass a vote of no confidence in him.


The Vice-President: Now, if that hon. Member goes back to Chief Sinazongwe without development and you know what is happening there, that might be the end of him.

Mr Speaker, from what I know, this is what all of these hon. Members assured. Now, by supporting the hon. Minister, no one is really losing very much at all. The farmers you are talking about do not even have tractors.


The Vice-President: You use scotch carts.{mospagebreak}


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am of the view that you, hon. Members, of this august House should not deny yourselves the tools with which to use to carry out your jobs. It will be highly irresponsible of us, as one of my colleagues has said here, to appear in constituencies in brand-new vehicles when they know that there is no development that is going to be there. So, it is up to you, hon. Members of Parliament. The Government will continue without K41 billion that has been reduced. But that shall not help to build or rehabilitate the schools and clinics you promised because that is the same money.

Mr Speaker, I stand here to urge the House to support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, who is well meaning and wants to bring development to the people of Zambia. We already told the people that we are going to pump K20 billion into Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia to produce fertiliser and suddenly that K20 billion is not there and there is no fertiliser – what are they going to think of us?

Hon. Members, Sir, should look at the practical implications of the decisions that they are making. These populist ideals are all right, but when we go back to our constituencies individually, we will be answerable. The Government has the mechanism to tell the people what went wrong or right. It is our job to explain to the people why certain things we promised are not being done. So, I take it that we all know what we are doing. We are able to identify those hon. Members who think Government can run without money and we shall target them. Hon. Members will see what will happen to them if they will be here next term.


The Vice-President: You electorate will even pass a vote of no confidence in you because you are not able to take development to your constituencies. I speak as one of the longest serving Member in this House. I have seen hon. Members come and go. I have been in this House since 1985. When hon. Members are here, you are collectively involved, but when you go back to your constituency you will go alone and that is where we shall find you and tell the people your shortcomings.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Wakana Toyota, ukaya panshi.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I am distressed by the very large number of interjections. This, indeed, is a respectable House. In this House, the best that our nation, Zambia, has is represented and I would like the records of the nation to be sustained along that path. I am asking hon. Members of the House on both sides to think for a moment and try to trust me with the work of the nation.

I feel that if hon. Members are so strong about the reduction of fuel, let us pass this amendment and I will come back to the House after I have worked alternatives in conjunction with the hon. Minister responsible for procurement of fuel. When I am certain that the nation would not suffer any ill will and any development lacks, then I will come back here to accord you with your wishes. But for the moment, I would ask the House that the amendment before it is considered positively and hold me responsible to come back to it.

I think it is important that we behave in a manner which is for the creation of Zambia and not for the destruction of Zambia. I will take views of the Opposition very seriously in executing my job. I will never and I can only do it at my peril. I can only disregard the views of the Opposition at my peril.

So, please, accept my assurance that I will return to this House after I have done all the homework and then I will table your wishes when I am confident that I can carry with me the Government as well as the Opposition. For the moment, I would ask, Mr Speaker, that my colleagues should give me chance.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Kasonde: In the interest of broader consultation, may I ask that the Bill be deferred to tomorrow.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: That is leadership.

Mr Speaker: Order! I believe debating while seated has come to an end now.


Mr Speaker: I have heard no objection to the hon. Minister’s request that further consideration of the Report Stage of the Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2002 be deferred to tomorrow.


The following Bills were read a third time and passed:

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2002
The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2002
The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2002


The Mines and Minerals (Amendment) Bill, 2002
Report adopted.

Third Reading on Wednesday, 20th March, 2002



VOTE 14/01 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Headquarters – K4,519,488,583).

(Debate resumed)

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Chairman, Sir, when we adjourned on Friday, I was alluding to a number of issues affecting the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Amongst the items that I raised were of my concern regarding development in the mining industry. More specifically, I was making the point that during previous debates in this House, hon. Members had raised important issues about the management of the mining industry per se. I alluded to the fact that ZCCM had outside the terms of the Privatisation Act to dispose of properties and other non-core assets belonging to ZCCM that have not been properly accounted for. 

Mr Chairman, the issues that have been raised by the Attorney-General concerning these sale of non-core assets, and for those that know the mining industry, these constitute a substantial value. The point that has been made by the Attorney-General needs to be recognised. But I urge hon. Members of this House that as we re-examine the allocations to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, we expect that the hon. Minister will come back to this House and issue a ministerial statement. He will also come and clarify to this House what became of the non-core assets such as schools, hospitals, houses and so on and so forth. It is very important for accountability and transparency that this issue is resolved conclusively with a clear indication to the hon. Members who represent the people of Zambia.

I also want to mention, Sir, that most hon. Members had cautioned Government in terms of the approach on the sale of assets. The problem we have in Konkola today could have been avoided if only the Government had listened to timely advice. As though that were not enough, to add insult to injury, this House was required to pass legislation in support of specific companies, tax holidays, on electricity and other costs that were to be borne by Government. Out of the problem we have right now that the hon. Minister alluded to, is as a result of the commitment that the last administration had caused to itself quite unnecessarily. This issue cannot be allowed to die.

The problem at Luanshya and Konkola mines could not have occurred and our people would not be languishing without jobs had the Government been cautious and listened to our advice. Even now we are saying the same things that the laws of this country pertaining to both privatisation need to be enforced by Government. It is important to emphasise that the role of monitoring what happens to the privatised companies must be priority on the part of Government. 

I wish to move on and allude to another point. On page 58 of the details of expenditure pertaining to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, Head 14, sub-Head 04 – Capital Expenditure, there is a provision of K1 billion for the establishment of a gem-exchange. I commend the Government for this move. Why do I commend Government? I commend Government because the bulk of the uncut stones from this country, find their way to the foreign markets, in the process denying Zambia employment and production, value adding, which means more jobs for our people. Secondly, many a time when gemstones are exported out of this country, the resources that are earned do not find their way back into Zambia. And, therefore, the question that we must ask ourselves is how the kwacha is to be sustained and raise sufficient foreign exchange coming to the Bank of Zambia to sustain it. 

In the same vein, Mr Chairman, Sir, all the privatised mining companies are not obliged to bring back foreign currency into Zambia. I ask the question to the Government; how then will you sustain the kwacha? Little wonder, it slides almost everyday continually deteriorating? That is economics. I am sure the hon. Minister will agree with me that unless there is more foreign currency earned, there is no way the kwacha rate will be sustained. And what will happen is that the kwacha component of the cost of production will continuously rise, making Zambia an even higher cost producer.

I would also like to urge the Government, Mr Chairman, that to abandon the Industrial Development Corporation or ZIMCO is suicidal. It is very important that Government is an active participant in the development of industries that consume our copper rather than sending the raw copper overseas instead, we should be sending copper rods and telephone wires. That is what is good for Zambia. 

I argue, Mr Chairman, that Kabwe which  is an already established industrial estate, with infrastructure can be used for the same purposes that can be used as ZAMEFA in Luanshya so that Zambia can produce the finished products rather than sending raw copper overseas. For that reason, Sir, I would urge Government, for once, to listen to us in the Opposition, because you do not have the monopoly of knowledge.

Hon. Government Members: Aah.

   Mr Sichinga: We can contribute to your success and the success of Zambia,  that is our interest. Mr Chairman, our interest is a commitment to the good of Zambia, not where a few can eat, but where the majority can eat. Without doing that we are presenting ourselves to a situation where anarchy can prevail in this country. 

   I notice, Sir, that on the issue of geological survey, this year there is no provision. I make reference, hon. Members, if you may turn to your Yellow Book, page 56, you will check under Capital Expenditure that there is no provision whatsoever for Capital Expenditure. 

   Surely, Sir, is there need for more mines to be found? We want a shift from those mines that have got a reducing resource at the moment and high cost of production because we have to dig deeper and the recovery rate, the ore content, if it goes beyond 2.12 per cent, it becomes almost uneconomical to produce copper. We have to move to the high ore content mines. One cannot get those mines unless there is expenditure on geological survey. 

    I would have liked to see an allocation to the Capital Expenditure. And one of the things that we need to bear in mind, although we have left this debate for tomorrow and I appreciate that, hon. Minister, for allowing us to have a chance to discuss this matter besides this Floor of the House, is because we must understand the trickle down effect of any reduction in cost.

   Zambia, as I have said in past debates in this House, is a high cost producer destination. For that reason, many companies are finding their way from the Copperbelt, Kabwe and Lusaka and destining themselves to Zimbabwe and other places, depriving Zambia of employment and production and, therefore, GDP. The area of the mines is such an important area and I wish to urge Government, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that we really have to find a better solution than we have done. It is worth making the investment because it will pay us back.

   I thank you, Sir.

   Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala ): Thank you, Mr Chairman. Sir, my concern really is that we have a very difficult situation in the country where KCM has indicated that Anglo-American Corporation is pulling out. Our Government has put together a team of men and women to investigate, to look at the best option available to Zambia in seeing to it that the mines continue.

   I am worried, Sir, that the terms of reference given to this team might simply restrict them to answering the problems of KCM, as opposed to the entire investment portfolio. Looking at the investment alternatives that might be available to Zambia, in this particular case, I wonder to what extent the team might go. I hope the hon. Minister will come here to indicate to us the possibility of broadening the terms of reference or making available the terms of reference to this House in terms of what this committee that has been set up to look into the problems of KCM has been mandated to do. 

   Mr Chairman, I fear that if this country is going to move backwards and start attending to issues of companies or industries that have already been privatised, we may not be able to move forward. We have privatised the companies, and how can we thereafter decide to protect the employment on the Copperbelt. How can we be looking into the possibility of protecting 11,000 jobs as per statements in the Press, indicating that we want to support the operations of KCM. If we do that, as the hon. Minister has indicated, further intervention, further financing, further allocation of finances for purpose of sustaining KCM would be required.

   Sir, our country is like a milk cow. I do not see us being able to get any more interventions, any more income beyond what we have been discussing in this House. If he does come to this House, Mr Chairman, it means that part of what we have been discussing today, part of the funds will have to be diverted to support KCM. If that does happen, it means, Mr Chairman, that our intentions to diversify from mining to agriculture will be severely jeopardized.

   Now, my advice, Mr Chairman, to the Government as of now is that we should start seriously thinking, not just because we have set up this committee, but let us be broad-minded and be forward looking. What is the best option for this country? Is it that we must continue to be held down in believing that we should continue to survive and exist on mining revenues, on mining income, or is it that we must break at some point and go to agriculture and tourism. We need, Mr Chairman, to be very brave. Do we need to support KCM and abandon agriculture, abandon tourism so that we continue to support mining?

    I mean mining, which can only see us probably through for the next five years, and thereafter what happens? We need to seriously look at the available options, Sir. And the available options are very difficult. They need a brave Government. They need a brave people, they need a brave nation and they need a knowledgeable nation. A nation that can make decisions that are not shot-sited but must be medium and long sited too. I urge my colleagues here, and sometimes when I speak, Sir, some of them comment because their brains are, perhaps, not as long-term as mine.


   Mr Hachipuka:….,like Mabenga. Mr Chairman, this is a serious issue. What are we going to do? Are we going to simply look at continuing to support KCM in its present form without investing in the Konkola Deep? To me the options available here are very straightforward. We must seriously, as Government, look at the possibility of investing in Konkola Deep which has a longer term. We must equally look at financing agriculture which is a longer term solution to this country.  And if you want to argue that you want to support eleven thousand jobs because if you do this or whatever number is employed by KCM, my argument, Sir, is: what of the little money that we have, whether it is domestically generated or internationally generated. We must look at the possibilities of using these funds with a view to investing it in long-term with a view to creating employment. Permanent long-term employment because if we spend our money supporting this industry whose life span is, maybe, five years, then what happens after five years?

   So, I would urge, Mr Chairman, that in looking at our future options available to this country that the study which has been sanctioned by the Government through you, I ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and indeed the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to broaden the spectrum of alternative investments in terms of resources that are available to this country. If we do not do that, we will be shooting ourselves into the leg.

   I thank you, Sir.

   Mr Sichilima (Mbala):Mr Chairman, my contribution is actually reminding some of my young people who are still growing gray hair like Hon. Sichinga here. Talking about capital expenditure in the mines, hon. Members, when we are talking about the mines we should always remember that the mines should be debated in their right perspective.

   We are gifted in that you can mine from any part of this country. I am talking as a former miner who worked in the mines for quite a while. You can mine from any part of this country and you will have something, but we have the tendency of thinking that explorers can only come outside this country and when they mine what they want, they go back and send us a report that there is nothing that we found. We need to be very careful. I am trying to comment because I have seen that it is blank on capital expenditure. For instance, on Roan Mine, we should not mislead the nation. If we are not careful, we will never mine anything out of it because we cannot spend any money to resuscitate it.

When the mine is submerged, believe you me, it will take five or ten years to mine again because you are looking at the machinery, safety underground and also the safety of the miner who is going underground to find out whether that thing is viable. So, on capital expenditure, I was going to be very happy if something was going to reflect because even the slugs that we have been mining and bringing on to the surface, after a long time, if that slug dam is not maintained, it will be damaged. This is where I need, probably, the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to move in very carefully because even the houses that were sold to the miners will get damaged and they will perish. So, on capital expenditure, we need probably, to revisit, if it is possible, to see if we can spend a little. 

On the same Roan Mine, there is some mine called Milyashi which has never been reported on, yet it is a viable mine that we need to spend on, again, to get something out of it because people just talk of, maybe, No 1 shaft while there are so many shafts at Roan Mine.

Having said that, I commend the Government on page 58. Under Capital Expenditure, there is K1 billion for gemstones and I hope this K1 billion is going to go into co-operatives of indigenous Zambians; those that are going to polish them on small-scale like in India where a family of about three or four members can make razor blades from a house and are able to sell to the Government and then the Government exports. There is a lot of revenue if we can make use of this K1 billion to start with and maybe, later increase the amount.

The mining sector in Zambia is an eye opener to all of us because there are new terms of concessioning, re-nationalising and many more. The sale of, for instance, the Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) is like a father who marries off a daughter and when the couple has children, the man takes them away. The father of the girl will never be called a grandfather. So, this is the situation that we have with KCM. We need to be very careful next time we revisit it. I concur with the statement that was made that we need to re-nationalise it. I totally support it because I am sure our culture, now, as Zambians, has changed, there is no way we are going to fail to run the mines.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Mwanza (Mkaika): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for giving me an opportunity this time to give my maiden speech. 

I would like to thank you, Sir, for allowing me to deliver my maiden speech. First and foremost, allow me, Sir, to congratulate the Speaker and you on having been re-elected to your respective positions.

Mr Chairman, may I take this opportunity to thank the people of Mkaika Constituency in Katete, for electing me as their Member of Parliament. Sir, having thanked the people of my constituency, I now want to comment on the President’s Speech.


On this subject, Sir, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, in his speech, said, and I quote:

‘Education is a basic human right for every individual in society. It also holds the key to reduction of poverty and prevention of HIV/AIDS.’

Mr Chairman, let me congratulate the President on such an observation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: However, education cannot be seen to be a basic human right for every individual if the children of the well-to-do are the only ones able to acquire secondary, college and university education. In this context, Sir, the President’s Speech, in as far as education is concerned, will only be meaningful if our vulnerable and less privileged people are not denied secondary, college and university education on account of affordability.

Mr Chairman, as has been alluded to by other hon. Members, 80 per cent of our people wallow in abject poverty. So, if only 20 per cent of our people can manage fees, then education in Zambia, as a basic human right, will continue to be a mockery to our people. 

In the same vein, Sir, I wish to call on the hon. Minister of Education to allocate adequate funds for in-service teachers to pursue further education in colleges and universities. There are teachers, right now, who are going through untold suffering because their meagre wages have to pay for their university education and at the same time support their spouses and children. No teacher can afford K3 million plus university fees without starving the family in the process. 


When hon. Members of Parliament say that the people in their constituencies are failing to pay medical fees, they are not talking of huge sums of money. It is K1,000.00 which the people in the villages are failing to pay in our clinics and what we are saying is that Government must believe us. This is true and very real, most of our people earn less than a dollar a day and because of the hunger situation, whatever money they earn is spent on food.

Mr Chairman, our people in the countryside were a comfortable people who used to walk the country roads with their heads up but, now, people feel that there is nothing to live for because they cannot understand this punishment inflicted upon them by the deliberate agricultural policies of the MMD Government in the last ten years.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: These policies have strangled this sector of our economy. Therefore, it must not sound very strange if our people cannot afford K1,000.00 medical fees and also fail to afford a meal for days.


Mr Chairman, HIV/AIDS has continued to be a major cause of death to our people in recent years. In the last ten years, more than three quarters of our women and young girls have resorted to sex as a means to earn a living. This has increased HIV/AIDS infection and if Government cannot check this sex industry whose end result is death, unfortunately, our people will finish.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwanza: Government must revive the manufacturing industry by giving favourable concessions to local businessmen instead of foreign investors who have not done very well.

We want these industries in Ndola and, indeed, in various other parts of the country to start functioning and create employment for the sex workers and the people of Zambia as a whole.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, let me talk about the things the people in my constituency want. In my constituency, Mr Chairman, the Chiefs and the people in Mkaika are worried about the current security situation in the area. Chief Mbang'ombe, for example, would like the Government to put up a police post at Paramount Chief Gawa Undi’s palace in Mkaika and also in Chimtende and Vulamkoko wards. Armed robbers have penetrated the area and are causing a lot of havoc and terror there.

In the last three years, the thieves have stolen over twenty cattle, for example, from just Paramount Chief Gawa Undi’s kraal. None of the people in the area has been spared, including the area Member of Parliament, now speaking. I lost ten animals, Mr Chairman, in the last three years.

On the hunger situation, Mr Chairman, relief food must be sent to Mkaika. People are going for days without any food. Mr Chairman, only a few days ago, there was a news report on our local radio station in Chipata to the effect that Katete Prison was congested. The report said the prison, whose capacity is ninety prisoners at a time, had more than 200 prisoners. 

At the time of this report, I was in my constituency and the Police Officer-in-Charge confirmed the report to be true and he attributed this to the increase in petty thefts involving fresh maize. This level of theft is unprecedented, Mr Chairman. For this reason, I wish to remind His Honour the Vice-President to send relief food quickly as such reports are not worth being proud of.

The people of Mkaika Constituency also want the Government to restore their status as farmers by providing them with inputs on time and also a market for their produce. Because of the withdrawal of Government support on agriculture, most of the peasant farmers have abandoned their farms and are now burning charcoal, Mr Chairman. This has resulted in indiscriminate cutting of trees. The people also want the Government to complete their unfinished school project at Mwaziputa and also a clinic project at Chinkhombe. 

Our only tarred road, Mr Chairman, from the Great East Road to the boma needs to be resurfaced as it is in very bad shape, indeed. The water supply is also very erratic in Katete. At the Boma and also at Katete Stores, where houses have flush toilets, the tenants find problems in using these facilities when there is no water. We also have feeder roads which were last graded over ten years ago. Mr Chairman, these roads need to be graded. Hydroelectric power must also be extended to other wards like Vulamkoko, Chimtende and Matunga.

Salaries for Chiefs and their retainers, Mr Chairman, are not paid on time. As at now, the Government owes them salary arrears for four months. I wish to appeal to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to ensure that Chiefs receive their salaries in good time.

Mr Chairman,…

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Mulela): Mr Chairman, since this is my first time to stand on this Floor, may I be allowed to take this opportunity to thank His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, State Counsel, for his victory in the last elections and for his illuminating speech, which has outlined this Government’s programmes for the future. I wish also to congratulate the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker for unanimously being re-elected respectively to these important offices, which signifies the honour and gratitude and integrity this House bestows on you. I wish also to congratulate all hon. Members of Parliament for being elected to this august House.

Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the people of my constituency, Mpongwe, for having elected me to the National Assembly. I want to assure the people of Mpongwe Constituency that I will do my best to bring more development to the area.

Mr Chairman, the people of Mpongwe Constituency are very grateful to the Government for the timely completion of the tar road from Luanshya to Mpongwe, the green basket of the Copperbelt. They are hopeful that the road will be extended further. They are also happy to see that the Mpongwe/Kapiri Mposhi Road is also being constructed and tarred. The people of Mpongwe are now able to transport their produce to the urban market early and timely. This is a clear sign that the MMD policies are 'walking.'


Mr Mulela: Rather, I mean MMD policies are working.

Mr Chairman, turning to my speech now, I thank you, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to wind up debate on Estimates of my ministry for the year 2002. May I take this opportunity to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for a well presented Budget. I am confident that the measures outlined in this Budget will contribute to the development of our country and eventually, uplift the living standards of the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the House may wish to know that my ministry is charged with the task of formulating and administering policies on mineral resources development for a safe, viable and sustainable mining industry for the benefit of the people of Zambia. Therefore, in order to realise this, my ministry, through its technical departments, will ensure that it achieves its goals through improved compliance in the mining industry, availability of geological and mining information and increased investment in the mining sector.

Let me, therefore, now take this opportunity to inform the House that the most important factors in investment decision in mining is the availability of geological data, consistency in Government policy, efficiency and transparency in its administration. Mr Chairman, to be consistent, in this year’s Budget, tax concessions to the mining industry have been addressed. I wish to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for leveling the playing field. This will result in the reduction of the unit cost of production of copper and retain the mining sector to profitability.

Mr Chairman, the objectives of my ministry are to promote investment in the mining sector in order to increase its contribution to the economy, to establish and maintain integrated information system in order to make available comprehensive geological and mining information, to effectively enforce legislation in order to ensure compliance and to promote research in the mining sector in order to increase the knowledge base and enhance technological development. 

My ministry is also mandated to effectively monitor seismic activities in order to facilitate interventions. Processing and issuing of mining, prospecting and gemstone exploration licenses was streamlined in the new Mines and Minerals Act of 1995.

Mr Chairman, in order to improve geological information in my ministry during the year 2001, the Geological Survey Department undertook a number of projects which were supported by the bilateral and multilateral partners. These included regional mapping of Mwinilunga area, structural interpretation of North-Eastern Zambia and the acquisition of new geological data in Muyombe area. The results of this work had generated valuable information for follow-up by private companies and individuals. I wish to bring this to the attention of Hon. Ng’uni and Hon. Hachipuka that individuals can use this information like themselves.

Mr Chairman, a vital tool for selecting exploration target areas is access to published geological reports and maps. The House may wish to note that before 2001, the geological survey had a backlog of unprinted geological maps covering different areas of the country. I am glad to report that with the assistance of the European Union and the World Bank, the department produced ninety-two geological maps and published fifty-two geological reports to the required level of detail and specifications. Mr Chairman, some of these maps are available here in the National Assembly Library and, therefore, I urge hon. Members of Parliament to make use of those maps. The acquisition of geological data saw the upgrading and updating of mineral resource database covering the whole country.

Mr Chairman, coming to the issue of small-scale mining, the Government recognises the importance of this sector because of its potential to contribute to the economy through foreign exchange earnings, job creation, income generation among the rural people and consequently poverty alleviation. The Government is, however, concerned that even in the midst of these abundant mineral resources, our people lack financial and technical capacity to apply for and undertake profitable mining ventures at small-scale level. 

Therefore, in trying to address these problems, the Government negotiated for a mining support facility through the Sysmin Programme worth Euro 30 million for credit to small-scale mining projects. It is hoped that through this facility, together with the measures that my ministry has put in place such as decentralising its professional and technical services, the Government is positive that the small-scale mining sector can significantly develop and eventually contribute to the overall economic development of the country.

Gemstone marketing has been a major problem for gemstone miners. I wish to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for providing funds in the Budget for the establishment of the gem exchange. I wish to thank the hon. Member of Kafue (Mr Sichinga) for supporting this budget.

Mr Chairman, a positive development in the sector has been education seminars and road shows that the ministry has provided to small-scale miners. The activities under this programme provided information and advice to small-scale miners. The Government will continue to formulate measures to develop small-scale mining sector and ensure full contributions to the economy.

Mr Chairman, my Government does recognise the importance of development of new mines. In order to achieve long-term sustainable economic growth, diversification of mining industry should be directed at exploration of a wide range of mineral resources, such as industrial minerals, gemstones and energy resources. In this respect, ongoing exploration activities in the country have revealed potential to develop mineral deposits. 

Mr Chairman, the Lumwana Copper Deposits is one of the largest and undeveloped copper resources in the world with reserves of 481 million tonnes at one per cent copper. A pre-feasibility study completed in the year 2000 showed that there is a potential to develop a major open pit copper mine to produce over 100,000 tonnes of copper metal over a period of twenty-four years. Significant gold, uranium and cobalt by-products would also contribute to the project economics that are potentially viable even at the current depressed base metal prices. 

A major bankable feasibility study will start soon to progress the Lumwana project towards development. The development of Lumwana project would provide substantial employment, direct investment and export revenue, making a very significant contribution to the economy of the country.

Mr Chairman, Kansanshi is one of the premier undeveloped copper and gold deposits in the world. It hosts a resource of 267 million tones at 1.2 8 per cent copper and 0.2 per cent gold. A definitive bankable feasibility study will be completed this year which will consider the potential development of a new large open pit at Kansanshi Mine with the capacity to produce between 50,000 tones to 100,000 tones per year. 

A construction of a long-lived low cost open pit mine at Kansanshi will have a pronounce effect on the people of North-Western Province and will serve as a catalyst for the further development of the area. I wish the hon. Members of Parliament for Solwezi Central and Solwezi West to note this and inform their electorate.

Mr Chairman, last year metorex opened the Chibuluma South Mine, the first ever new copper mine to be developed in Zambia in a period of thirty years. This mine is expected to deliver 16,000 tones of copper per annum over the life span of 16 years. However, due to prevailing copper prices the operation was placed on care and maintenance.

Mr Chairman, with the leveling of the playing field in the mining industry, it is expected that the mine will open soon. 

Mr Chairman, Chambeshi Mine NFC will this year produce the first copper from this mine. Chambeshi Mine NFC  was on care and maintenance under the ZCCM. NFC Africa Mining has completed the first phase rehabilitation and the capacity of production will be 22,500 tones per year but this will be increased once the second phase of rehabilitation is completed.

Mr Chairman, Chambeshi metals, the COSAC (cobalt slag and copper plant) constructed at the cost of US$100 million, in addition to the existing Chambeshi metal toll production of 2,500 tones per year of cobalt the COSAC plant will add approximately 4,200 tones of cobalt and 3,500 of copper per annum. Cobalt metal production, therefore, should exceed 6,500 tones per year, making Chambeshi Metals the largest producer accounting for approximately 20 per cent of the world’s annual cobalt output.

Mr Chairman, occupational health and safety of employees as well as the protection of the environment are important features of the mining industry. It is in this vein that mining legislation in Zambia has been tailored to provide for a balance between the corporate needs of the mining companies on one hand and environmental protection on the other so that mineral base activities can contribute to sustainable development.

Mr Chairman, the House is aware that the privatisation of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines was successfully completed in March while production of copper and cobalt increased due to increased investment by the owners of these mines that they put more investment. However the commodity price has dropped significantly and this has led to the withdrawal from KCM by Anglo-American Corporation. The Government is studying the report on KCM submitted by the task force. I wish to thank the employees of KCM for patience while this matter is being looked into.

Mr Chairman, the New Deal Government is aware of the suffering of employees of RAMCOZ and Maamba Collieries. The solution to this problem, however, does not lie in paying salaries to the employees but in finding credible partners with technical and financial capability to run the mines as a final solution. The Government, through its agencies, is holding consultations and discussions with interested partners with hope of concluding these discussions soon. In the meantime, I would like to thank employees for their patience and maturity they have displayed.

Mr Chairman, the focus of my ministry during the year 2002 and beyond will be to play a promotional role by providing inter alia technical support in terms of geological and mining information on policy guidelines, legislation and procedures to all miners and encourage mining houses to sub-contract local suppliers and invest into and promote community activities and social amenities for women and youth in centres.

Mr Chairman, the ministry has great challenges ahead. Therefore, in order to implement and sustain my ministry’s vision, financial and human resources will be required. I, therefore, request hon. Members of Parliament to support this budget. Future outlook, Sir, the prospect in the mining sector is bright with mineral production expected to increase as a result of the revival of the mining sector. Metal prices are also expected to pick up some time this year which should provide a further impetus to increased production. As a Government, we believe, we have put in place good policies to ensure successful mining.

Mr Chairman, in the New Deal administration, we are committed to continuity with change and remain competitive on the global market.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/01 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K111,383,706,971)

The Chairman: We now move on to Head 11, Zambia Police, Ministry of Home Affairs. We are dealing with Zambia Police. Do not stray, in your policy debate, into areas like passports, citizenship, immigration, customs and so on. Restrict yourselves to the operations of Zambia Police.

Any policy debate?

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, in debating Zambia Police, I would like the Government to seriously consider the issue of the appointment and ratification by Parliament, of the Inspector-General of Police. This is because it has become a highly politicised method and manner in which this is done. There is no security of tenure for the Inspector-General of Police. He is, therefore, removed at the whims of the appointing authority.

Mr Chairman, let me recall an incident that occurred to me towards the end of February, 1996. I had resigned from Cabinet in 1996. The very next day, the then Inspector-General of Police issued a statement to the Zambia Daily Mail suggesting that I was involved in smuggling of copper and copper scrap, a complete fabrication. And it was nobody other than the Inspector-General himself and that time, I think it was Inspector-General Njobvu.

Now, this is the type of policisation that we do not need. The Inspector-General of Police and Zambia Police are there for everyone.

Mr Chairman, the other issue is the method and manner in which they carried out the Public Order Act during the course of last year, in particular, during the campaign period. Again, a lot of us, at least on the left here in the Opposition believe that there was a lot of harassment in the method and manner in which the police behaved. We even went to the High Court for the interpretation of the Public Order Act. Despite that we had a lot of problems in trying to organise meetings.

So, Mr Chairman, I would like a serious consideration at some point during the course of this year that the Inspector-General of Police security of tenure is brought to the House for ratification. We bring the Supreme Court Judges here and many other people for ratification. They must be professionals.

The amount of harassment that I and many other Opposition Members went through last year …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: … was phenomenon. Every time, I had no choice but to go and give one or more caution statements. But when there is evidence …

The Vice-President interrupted.

Mr Patel: Your Honour, you were once in the back bench and I recall how you were crying over the Office of the President.

Mr L.  L.  Phiri: And you will go back. They will follow you.

Mr Patel: All I am simply saying is that there must be some professionalism and ethics in the manner in which they conduct themselves. We need a Police Service. I know that we do not have enough money to provide to the police for housing. They live in terrible conditions. But the behaviour of the people that are right at the top is unacceptable.

There are so many problems. For instance, the problem which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has, where the Central Bank handed over, a few years ago, the issue of Meridien Bank. To date, even His Excellency the President questioned as to why the police had not done anything.

Now, do they always have to be prodded by politicians or Heads of State in order to get things done? I think that it is very unfair. There is so much evidence of theft and corruption in this country. Why are they not taking action on that? But they are quick to find me.


Mr Patel: It is unacceptable.

Mr Chairman, last week on Friday, when the House adjourned, I was driving with Hon. Sibetta to drop him at the National Assembly Motel. At the F. J. T Institute, a double cab, unmarked stopped on my right hand side and said they were police officers. They ordered me to stop because they wanted to talk to me but I refused and told them that I was going to the motel. The guards at the motel refused them entry.

Hon. Government Member: Shame!

Mr Patel: Later in the afternoon, I was given a warning and caution for my remarks in the House. No respect for immunities. That is what I am asking …

The Vice-President: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.


The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor would appear to have some serious problem with the police. Is he in order to debate his own situation in the House? I seek your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member on the Floor is highlighting the defects in the operations of the Police Force.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: And in my humble opinion, I feel he is in order because he is bringing this to the attention of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: … who should now take note of that and thereafter, take remedial action.

Will the hon. Member, please, continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Mr Chairman, your Honour, all I am trying to say is that, first of all, I do not have a problem. What I am trying to say is that we require professionalism. We do not want the police to be working on political instigations. Inspector-Generals of Police in Zambia have become Instigator-Generals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: And we want to stop it. They are men and women who are learned. Some of them are professionals. We must allow them to work as professionals. That is why I suggested and emphasized that the Inspector-General of Police’s position be ratified by Parliament so that we can provide him security of tenure. Every time the President at his whims can remove him if he does not like him or her. That is all I am trying to say. We need fairness in our country.

You cannot hound a few individuals persistently. The harassment that I went through at the time of the Third Term debate, Hon. Kavindele, was unacceptable.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr L.  L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for according me this opportunity to debate on this serious Ministry of Home Affairs.

Mr Chairman, we would want to assist this Government to listen to what we are saying. We were telling their friends last time. They were just ignoring us because it was coming from the Opposition side. We are not enemies, we mean well to them. More people approach us than them. So, what we are debating is what people out there are complaining about this Government. The Government of the New Deal should be prepared to listen to us more attentively than those who come from Mbala because they just want to be heard that they are talking.

Mr Chairman, no one would refuse in this country that the integrity of the police in this nation has been reduced to beggars. The corruption level in the Police Force is too high to be accommodated in this country. This is for a simple reason …

Mr Sibetta: Nchekeleko!

Mr L. L. Phiri: These officers are sent to go and man roadblocks and leave their homes without food and their children do not go to Lusaka. What do you expect the officer who has no money to do at a roadblock? He is an easy target for corruption. These officers handle serious issues in this country. They deal with cases of corruption and meet murderers who have different cases. Sixty-thousand kwacha net pay per month for a police officer is not enough. 

The Government is promoting corruption deliberately. We would not like to see that situation. These officers can perform well and be professionals if they are paid handsomely. If you go to the police camps, you will find out that they are starving and they are still living in the containers that were made in 1964. These are the people you send on 24 hours service and you do not want to pay them well. That is human torture. We cannot accept this. There is too much begging in this department of Zambia Police.

We would like police officers to be treated the same as the Office of the President officers who are misleading this Government. When an OP officer is attacked, you need a Zambia Police officer to go and protect him. If an army officer is attacked at his house, at the end of the day, a Zambia Police officer is wanted to intervene. Why are you sidelining Zambia Police? The lowest paid Police Force in the whole Africa is Zambia Police. It is a shame that they walk from ministry to ministry, department to department begging for fuel.

I would like to give an example of the true corruption we are talking about. In Chipata, there is a white man who comes from South Africa and works for Clark Cotton. He was caught with pornographic materials. This man was arrested and after a few days, he was released. Up to now, that man is still in Chipata. What is he doing in Chipata? What are the police officers there for? It seems they are only here to intimidate Opposition Members whenever we talk sense. 

We do not want that to happen. The people of Chipata do not want to know why that man cannot be deported. We know that Zambians who have been very prominent in Opposition and were innocent have been deported. But the criminals are left scot-free. We do not want the integrity of people of Eastern Province to be lowered. We would like the police to act because they have those pornographic materials. This is the corruption we are talking about.

The police officers have no money and food and are demoralised, their morale is low. Even if a man or woman is being harassed at the town centre, a police officer will be there standing looking without interfering. Police officers in Zambia have been demoralised by our well-qualified men and women.

Mr Sichilima: Get annoyed!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, I am a serious debater.


Mr L. L. Phiri: Those across me are just learning how we debate in Parliament and I will forgive them because I am talking about national issues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: We want to see this New Deal Government consider paying police officers handsomely so that whoever is found claiming ni chekeleko is dismissed.

When you stop at roadblocks, these officers just shout anyhow at drivers even if they are innocent because they are frustrated. When you stop at a roadblock, you expect the officer to look at the defects of the vehicle. Instead, the officer will just look at you and try to gate favours from you. These officers harass people without apparent reason because they leave their homes with empty bellies and are frustrated. The profession of these officers will be meaningless if the conditions of service are not improved.

Mr Chairman, much has been said about the police. You have told us not to have a cross-country debate; otherwise, I would have hammered on national registration cards.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Chewe S. Mukuka): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for according me this chance.

First of all, I would like to comment on my brother, Hon. Lucas Phiri’s submission. His submissions can matter only if he comes up with the facts to enable our Government work on. Facts are what matters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aha!

Mr Chewe S. Mukuka: The job of our Government of the day in our New Deal is to make sure that, at least, we sort out all the mess that Hon. Lucas Phiri is crying about. But then, there is the word of ni chekeleko, ni chekeleko. We do not know who has done that. Why can he not come out in the open? The Government of the day said, ‘Please, come out in the open and put them on the Table so that we can make a follow-up’. Now, ni chekeleko – are we here to hear fabrications?

The Chairman: Order! You are the Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President. You can only tell the nation, through this House, what the Government is doing in response to some of the concerns expressed by hon. Members. By asking them to put those people on the Table, you are asking them to bring all those who have been affected by corruption and by other misdeeds of the police to come here. Will you tell hon. Members what remedial actions the Government is taking?

Will the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Chewe S. Mukuka: What I was trying to say, Sir, is that the Government of today, in our New Deal, is ready to listen to the Opposition with a view to finding a solution to all those problems. The Government will be very much interested to hear those facts from the hon. Member so that it can make follow-ups. This is the New Deal administration on which His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, has already stated very clearly that he would like this country to be corruption-free.

In my maiden speech, I said that we have to work together all of us as a team. We do not need to segregate. We have to run the country together. We have to move and work together. This is the reason why His Excellency the President has extended his strong hand to the Opposition.

Mr Shumina: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shumina: I rise on a very serious point of order. It is not my intention to disturb the hon. Deputy Minister’s debate. But, is he in order to claim that this House should be producing facts when hon. Members of this House are being threatened by arrests as indicated in The Post newspaper of Wednesday, March 6th, 2002, …

The Chairman: Order! Follow what he is saying. He is asking you – he has changed the tone. If you have some cogent evidence, do not keep it to yourself. You tell them today so that they can take action. That is what he is saying.

Will you, continue, please.

Mr Chewe S. Mukuka: I thank you very much again, Mr Chairman, for your protection.

What I was trying to say, with due respect, is that the Government of today is ready to listen to all Opposition parties and that we should move together as one family and work together as one team. My special appeal is that the Government would like to move in very quickly and finish this Budget, including the police Vote that has been brought so that we can effect and bring changes. If we delay the budget for the police, at the end of the day, we will be the ones to blame. My humble and special appeal to the leaders and brothers and sisters in the Opposition is that let us take things in a cool manner. Let us work together without pointing fingers at one another. We are all one. If anything, let us work together as a team.

Thank you, Sir.


The Chairman: Order! When you are given the Floor, please, make sure you have all the points well lined up. 

Hon. Members: Yes.

The Chairman: Do not repeat yourself several times because you will be wasting our time. Have your notes well organised.

The Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairman, thank you very much.

Mr Chairman, important issues have been raised, and my appeal is that let us not split hairs. On the question of corruption, the Government of the New Deal is irrevocably committed to the fight against corruption. The President is on record, when he was launching an organization, formed to fight corruption, he clearly stated that his Government was going to deal decisively against any cases of corruption. He further said that there are no sacred cows in Government anywhere. So, the Government is vigorously committed to the fight against corruption because corruption is a cancer. Corruption is a threat to development and the Government is totally committed. So, the question of saying the Government is underplaying these serious vices does not arise.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Mpombo: This is what I am saying. The President has made a commitment and if you are serious, you should see that commitment. If you cannot see that commitment, then you have a hidden agenda. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mpombo: On the question of conditions of service for the policemen, again, my Government has shown very strong commitment. The first place the President toured was Sikanze Camp. He went in a Land Rover. The idea was for him to be afforded an opportunity to see what was going on. That is what the President did. That was a serious commitment on the part of the Government to ensure that conditions of service are looked into. 

So, we are all partners in the fight against corruption. No one is going to shield corruption. This includes the Government machinery and everyone. In fact, the President went further by saying that his Government will give support to Government wings that are fighting corruption like the Anti-Corruption Commission. What commitment surely should we demand? And he has said that any Minister or civil servant or whoever it is, it will not matter, if he is found wanting, he can be chucked out of the system. So, this question of saying that the Government is not doing anything does not arise. 

Also, Mr Chairman, you cannot blame Government corruption on the non-availability of food in people’s homes. People can get money. Suppose one is paid and spends all his money on beer, can you put the responsibility on the Government?

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mpombo: What I am saying is that it is the Government’s responsibility to improve the conditions of service. But it is not the Government’s responsibility to ensure that they deliver bags of mealie-meal to the people’s homes. There is no quarrel about that. This Government is committed. After all, you get optimum service from a motivated work-force. Everyone here is aware that you can get good results from a motivated work- force. What I mean by motivated work-force is good conditions of service that includes living wage as well. That is what motivation means. 

Hon. Members, this Government is totally committed. As a Government, it is also committed in ensuring that the police work under a better environment which will allow them to discharge their functions in a positive manner to this country. So, hon. Members, this Government is heavily committed. We have made a commitment against corruption and bribery. I am sure if any hon. Member is involved in corruption, the result is that this Government will descend on such an hon. Member like a tonne of bricks.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): Mr Chairman, I am better late than never.

I would like to take this opportunity to deliver my maiden speech before I comment on the …

The Chairman: Order! We want to make progress on the Estimates. 

Mr S. K. Mukuka (Malole): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. 

Mr Chairman, I would like to know what plans the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has over the abandoned Zambia Police Training College in Chinsali. The structures are still there but it appears nothing is being done. It was realised in the 1980s that the current training college for the police is inadequate. So, there was need to put up a second training college and a site was allocated in Mulakupikwa in Chinsali. I would like to know what the plans are over that college.

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, I wish to make a contribution on this Vote. I am familiar with what police officers go through because my father was a policeman for so many years.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Sialumba: So, I have a few points to make in this august House. 

Mr Chairman, having been brought up from a home in a police camp, our policemen and women of today are living in any place that you can think of. Mr Chairman they do not have enough accommodation. That is why we have a lot of crime amongst us. In the days when my father was a policeman, no police officer would live outside the police camp.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

Miss Sialumba: And they had a reason for doing that. They wanted to put them together so that in case of any problem, they would quickly be mobilised. How are you going to mobilise them if one policeman lives in Northmead, the other one lives in Kalingalinga and the other one lives in Mtendere and name it. When there is a crisis, how do we get hold of these police officers? I am made to believe that those camps are there so that the policemen are in one place for easy mobilisation. 

Mr Chairman, I, again, want to share this with the House that during the days when my father was a policeman, we used to have house inspections on weekly basis, that is how promotions were being assessed. If a police officer was clean, cleanness was an important criterion for one to earn a promotion as opposed to the case now.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, Hear!

Miss Sialumba: If we took a survey, Sir, and if we just went outside Parliament Buildings, we would find our policemen dressed in whatever type of material that they want to wear. My fellow women police officers would be wearing high-heeled shoes. How do you expect them to run? The policemen also, Mr Chairman, have different types of uniforms. You cannot even know who is a traffic police officer, or a paramilitary police officer, or a mobile police officer, name it, and yet they all fall under one umbrella.

Moreover, Sir, our policemen today, like what my other colleagues have already alluded to, are not given any incentives. I rise to speak on behalf of the mouthless. This is why there is so much corruption in our nation. The police officers of those years, Sir, were joining the Police Force to render a service to the nation as opposed to the case now. Our children are unemployed and hence they have no choice. This is why they just opted to say, ‘What can I do since there are no other jobs for me? Let me just go and join the Police Force so that I can earn a living.’

So, what I am trying to share with the august House is that, let us motivate these young men and women who have taken up this job as police officers because, after all, they are there to look after us. Everyone, whether His Honour the Vice-President, I, or anybody in Shang’ombo, requires the services of the policeman. Now, if this policeman is not given incentives that he needs, that is why you find that we have had a lot of crime and in most cases, our policemen are involved because they want to make ends meet. 

Mr Chairman, can we, through the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, look at ways of accommodating these people in one place. There are a lot of guns that are all over and uniforms that are being used in committing crime. At night, sometimes you may not even know if you are alerting the police or whether it is the true policemen who are coming to rescue you or maybe it is another group of thieves purporting to be police officers. So, Sir, I think there is need to look into this one. Before I sit down, Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs as to who is responsible for making these uniforms. 

Why am I saying so? When I was growing up in the police camp myself, uniforms were being bought by the Minister of Home Affairs and his officials. But I am wondering now because we have a lot of these uniforms all over. The guns are all over and thereby risking our lives. Maybe the bottom line, Sir, is that these police officers, who are working in the Police Force, have no incentives. So, can we look at their conditions of service? We should seriously look at their salaries and see how best we can improve them.

Finally, Sir, we have had all these roadblocks on our streets in Lusaka. The targets are the minibus and tax drivers. I have always travelled on these buses each time I go to town. What happens is that from nowhere there may be a roadblock because it is a minibus that has carried people. The police officer will quickly go to the conductor or the minibus driver and then all of a sudden you are told to come out of the minibus without even realising the inconvenience the officer is causing to the passengers. The officer may not understand that some passengers are rushing to do some urgent businesses. 

As you are ordered out of the minibus, very abusive language is used, resulting in an argument with the driver and the conductor which may even end up in a fight. The police officer will just challenge you that there is nothing you are talking about because the minibus has to go the police station. That minibus may even go to the police station at Lusaka central Police. But within minutes, that driver and the minibus will be released because this driver has given the police officer money. Now, that comes back to what I am saying. How do we expect to collect revenue that is so much wanted by the Police Force if we have young men and women not taking this money to the Police Force. This money ends up in their pockets, Sir. And I am not trying to bore the House. What I am saying is very true. 

So, with those things that I have said, can the hon. Minister please look into some of these things? I know that his ministry is a very big one and very vital which requires all of us to work together and help him. Maybe, even speaking for the Inspector-General of Police, Mr Ngangula, it is high time he sat down and spoke to his juniors and make sure he knows what is happening. These minibus and taxi drivers, instead of taking this money to the intended offices, this money is being pocketed. So, please, that is another way that we can use to get our revenue from these people who have been violating traffic rules whenever they are driving. 

I thank you, Mr Chairman. 

Mr Chairman: I can see that you are talking about corruption, roadblocks, the same things and so on, I call on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Member: he is not ready.


The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Chairman, in line with the changed political and social economic environment in Zambia, The Zambia Police operates a service as defined in its missions statement to that of providing high quality service by providing and applying the law fairly and firmly to all, applying pro-active methods to prevent crime and arrest offenders. In doing this the Police Service will seek to cultivate rapport at partnership with the community and to respect human rights. Sir, derived from the mission statement the police service will seek to attend the following objectives:

(a)    Maintain law and order;

(b)    prevent crime, protect life and property; 

(c)    detect crime and prosecute offenders; and 

(d)    uphold human rights.

Sir, in order to attain the principles of the mission statement and objectives, the Police Service will be restructured in such away that it provides efficient……..

Mr Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours to 1830 hours.

The Chairman: Before we start the proceedings, may I bring to your attention that we have to finish approving the Estimates by Wednesday, 27th March, 2002. So, I am making a passionate appeal to all of you, my dear colleagues, that it will not be possible for many of you to contribute to the ministries. I will probably give two or three hon. Members and then I will ask the hon. Minister concerned to wind up debate and I am also appealing to you, hon. Ministers, we are really in an awkward situation, I do not like it and I do not think even His Honour the Vice-President likes it, but we have no choice. We have to finish approving the Estimates by Wednesday, 27th March, 2002. So, if you can just bring up, in your policy statements, just salient features; one page or seven minutes and then you sit down so that we slide into figures.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapushi: Mr Chairman in order to attend to the principles of the mission statement and objectives, the Police Service will be restructured in such a way that it provides efficient and effective service delivery to the people of Zambia. Each law enforcement officer will have to know that his/her fundamental duty is to serve the community, safeguard lives and property, protect the innocent and weak against deception, oppression or intimidation, peaceful protection against violence or disorder and to respect the constitutional rights of all to liberty, equality and justice. In the New Deal administration, each police officer is expected to ensure that the officer keeps both his public and private life unsullied by corruption.

Mr Chairman, security and stability are very vital for the further development and strengthening of good governance of our young democracy and institutions. Each person’s individual human rights need to be protected. Investments, be it foreign or domestic need security. Our tourist industry needs to be protected. An environment of threatened instability and security breeds fear and fear results in individual paralysis and economic stagnation. My vision is to ensure a safe environment through the enhancement of the capacity of the Zambia Police Service to protect and prevent crime.

Mr Chairman, presently the Zambia Police Service is beset with a number of operational problems due to inadequate funding. The consequence of this has been the rise in the incidences of crime, in particular, robberies and theft of motor vehicles during the year 2001. This august House will recall that it was during the year 2001 that the country lost some prominent Zambians at the hands of criminals. This is not only regrettable but also costly to the country politically. It is for this reason that all law-abiding citizens should form a national alliance against criminals and terrorists. We already have a global alliance against terrorism. Terrorism includes terror perpetrated at the domestic level.

However, despite this inadequacy of operational resources, the Police Service is geared to ensure the creation of safe environment through the employment of pro-active and community policing strategies which will put emphasis on the development of good police/community relations and capacity building for the police leadership. I seek the support of this House in approving the Estimates of this Budget.

Mr Chairman, allow me to quickly respond to some of the issues raised by my colleagues. I must say on the onset that they were very worthy issues and all I can do, at this moment is to tell them that I undertake to particularly write to some of them so that I can seek more clarification and more information regarding the issues that have been raised.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/09 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Lusaka Province – K8,056,672,276).

Mr Shepande (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 4, item 03, sub-item 005 – Police Cells Sanitation (PRP) – K300,000,000, may I have more details.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Chairman, we are talking of police camps like Chelstone within Lusaka Province.


The Chairman: Have you finished?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Chairman, the sum will be required to improve sanitation in various police cells.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/14 – (Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs- Eastern Province -K2,858,093,025)

Mr L. L. Phiri: Sir, can I have clarification on sub-head 05, item 002- Staff Accommodation. Could the hon. Minister indicate how many staff houses will be built from K100,000,000.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairman, the sum K242,000,000 is required for the purchase of various movable assets during the year 2002.


The Chairman: Staff Accommodation, K100,000,000.00.

Mr Sakeni: The sum of K100,000, 000 is required to rehabilitate, build or purchase houses for members of staff in the province.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: How many houses?

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/17 – (- Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs – Southern Province K111,383,706,971)

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Sir, can I have clarification on sub-head 05, item 001 – Minor Works – K10,000,000, what minor works are these?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Chairman, the sum will be required to improve sanitation in various police cells.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/01 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K56,795,632,767)

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Chairman, I am totally grateful for the opportunity to contribute to some suggestions to the Ministry of Home Affairs and through him to what is possible to improve the work of the Police Force.

Mr Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, I rarely rise on points of order, but is the Leader of the House in order to come here and chew a he goat sweet …


Mr Sibetta: … in this House. I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairman.


The Vice-President: Am I chewing anything?

Mr Sibetta: That is a he goat sweet you are chewing.


The Chairman: May Hon. Mtonga, please, continue.

Mr Mtonga: I am grateful, Sir, I also saw the chewing.

Sir, I would like to refer to the tenure of office for the leadership of the Police Force.

Mr Sibetta: He has just swallowed.

Mr Mtonga: I think that the suggestions made by hon. Members are overdue and I wish that the Government leadership would consider and accept them. For example, five Inspector-Generals, one in question because he is about to be appointed, I believe so, four to be more precise, in ten years.

Miss Nawakwi: Like agriculture.

Mr Mtonga: It is too much. Even the reforms that each one starts, they never finish. So, even now when we are informed by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that the Police Service would be restructured, it would be the tenth or perhaps the twentieth assurance we have got about such reforms and that has never been seen through by a single Inspector-General. 

   At the change of Government or at the whims of the leadership at the top, they are changed without recourse to the need for tenure of office. The turnover is just too serious and has to be stopped. 

   I wish to join my colleagues, especially the hon. Member for Munali (Miss Nawakwi) who made an appeal through you, Sir, that we should not have a situation where the messenger is killed. The one who brings the message sent by the people is killed instead of receiving the message. In short, I am referring to the fact that you, as Member of Parliament, may wish to bring information to this House about a crime, but where a Member is going to be considered a suspect or arrested, I think it sends a very wrong message to our people. 

That kind of message, Mr Chairman, goes out as if the leadership of Government is trying to cover up a crime. We do not, as a matter of practice, punish informers. We do not punish people who bring information to the appropriate authorities. What we do is receive the information and pass it on to the legitimate authorities to assess it.

Mr Chairman, I think that when the leadership of this House stops a Member, by way of threats of arrest, to contribute some information, it is unfair for the police to descend on him or arrest him. Hon. Members should not be harassed and I wish that you would find a way of going round this because the service is to the people.

Mr Chairman, I wish also to say that part of the problem that destabilises the force is that when you apply for a job, you go to Lilayi, but as you rise in rank, it gets colder and your employment is at the pleasure of the President. That should not be the case because he was not at Lilayi when the man was applying for the job and he did not apply together with the District Administrators or any political official for that matter. So, the Inspector-General of Police should not be fired at political Press conferences.  In the past Commissioners of Police had a cup of tea with the Governor to bid farewell, we knew a year in advance that the leadership of the force was changing, there used to be a farewell parade that was properly prepared.

But now, Sir, when the President wakes up, he holds a political Press Conference and appoints professional people together with politicians who come and go and they are banded together. I think that is unfair to a professional service.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mtonga: Mr Chairman, there is need to spell out what the hon. Minister will do to restructure the Police Force. I only hear the word ‘restructure’ and not ‘retraining’. The cry from this side is that the Police Force requires an overhaul. The Police Force, since 1911, has had only two dedicated commissions of inquiry to find out what is wrong with the staff and why the leadership is doing the things that are done wrongly.

Mr Chairman, we need a dedicated commission of inquiry. A Minister who is new to the office may not help us get to the bottom of what is going wrong with the Police Force. We need a dedicated commission to look at conditions of service and the wrongs that are going on and, therefore, the need for re-training. How do we train the Police Force around the problems that we have discovered?

Mr Chairman, when you get eight people killed in an investigation and later you arrest two or three people as real criminals, then you know that something is wrong with the Police Force. In Penza’s case, we had eight people killed in cold blood and later we got two people arrested as the real culprits. How is that? What has happened? This calls for a serious investigation. Mr Chairman, eight lives were lost as people who killed the late Penza. But they were not the right ones because the right ones were arrested later and no explanation has been given up to this day.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mtonga: Mr Chairman, I wish to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that there are too many outstanding cases. I wish particularly to raise one from my constituency. I have raised it before, but I have never had a reaction from the Police Force. I have a letter written by the Director of Public Prosecutions instructing the police to arrest a particular chairman of a constituency who has had ten felonies committed by him. 

Hon. Member: Manjata.

Mr Mtonga: The police have received that letter and they have not acted on it. Is that the rule of men or the rule of law?

Hon. Members: Shame!

Mr Mtonga: I wish to appeal to the hon. Minister that, in fact, I learnt a lot from the management at his level. When you call a meeting of your commanders, ask them to account for their work. I do not think you have regular meetings with your members at command level for each department to tell you what they are doing. You should be able to raise questions from the daily reports of crime. Ask them what they are doing about any crime. If you do not quiz them, they will not deliver. Is this not the reason then we have a case of an ordinary little young man, son of a Minister in this House, not arrested for over ten felonies and the Director of Public Prosecutions has written? I ask you to check on that one and kindly give me an answer through the Chair.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga: Mr Chairman, my last point is a question, what is the policy of the New Deal Government on politicisation of the Police Force? We have not had a clear position as to what your view is for a policeman who acts professionally, especially against the cherished interest of the ruling party. We have seen in the past, some men picked from markets and taken into the Police Force to join as members of the Police Force without screening and the only qualification was that they were MMD party cadres.

Mr Chairman, you have a lot of problems screening these people. If you get the correct people to help you, you will find that a lot of these people do not meet the standards and qualifications of being policemen ...

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Mr Chairman, I am most indebted for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairman, the Police Force or Service is very dear to all of us. It is a Vote that we would like to increase given an opportunity and it is a Vote that everyone must support. Sir, if you go through the Budget, you will find that critical areas such as prisons and reconstruction and refurbishment of prison facilities, really for this year, on one item there is nil. Someone says that the prison is not just a preserve of a few. We need to support our friends who are in those areas. 

But more importantly, Sir, the Prison Service in this country has over 32,000 hectares of land, properly supported and equipped. They could support us in our quest for food security and, indeed, being self sufficient within the precincts of prison. So, hon. Minister of Finance and Planning, this is one Vote where I would really like to see an improvement in the allocation. 

Mr Chairman, coming to reformatories, in this country we only have one reformatory and that is the Katombora Reformatory and thank you, I think it was refurbished and so, it is now a good place.

Mr Chairman, there is no reformatory for the girl-child and it is important that we address our minds to this so that we can get the girl-child out of the mainstream of the prisons where they are.

Mr Chairman, while we are at this Vote, may I ask the hon. Minister to brief this House as to what criterion is used for some members of society to get police protection. I was crying for the whole of last year to get police protection. On 28th September, I was to be gunned down and the police command told me that not every citizen who cries that they are in trouble does get police protection. But I was amazed that my colleague, Hon. Dr Kabanje, just by voting here was given police protection.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: I want to know why I should pay, as an hon. Member, for private security, and yet some hon. Members in this House are being given State protection.

Hon. Opposition Members: Corruption!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, while we are at this point, I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama has addressed the issue of tenure in the Police Service. It is important that the people in these positions feel secure so that they do not owe allegiance to their appointing authority. As Inspector-General of Police, you are expected to inspect Commissioners to see how they are performing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: You are not expected to be the one ordering the arrest of Hon. Nawakwi on the cell phone.

At that point, Mr Chairman, may I, please, be given the opportunity to quote from a letter. The appointment of the Inspector-General of Police is done under the seal of the President. All his or her actions are under the Presidential directives, I hope one day we will have a lady Inspector-General of Police. I think with the New Deal administration, we are going towards that.

Hon. Members: You are the one!

Miss Nawakwi: The Inspector-General of Police is appointed under the seal of the President. Any actions under his seal are construed and properly understood to be Presidential directives.

I wish to quote from one of his letters. It is not mysteriously obtained. It is a public document.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: The letter is under the flying seal of the Commanding Officer for Lusaka Division. It says, and I quote:

‘Constable Philip Chiwala of No. 29752, Woodlands Police Station, Driver - Staff Dismissal. I refer to the above matter and wish to inform you that I am dismissing you from the Police Service with immediate effect for gross misconduct …’

It goes on to say and I quote:

‘On 29th September, 2001, …’ (that is the day after I was to be assassinated).


Miss Nawakwi: ‘…you took a police operational vehicle …”


Miss Nawakwi: Listen to this. It is very important. It is critically important. This officer was detailed to drop an armed officer at my residence. On picking the same officer in the morning, this is what he got. The letter goes on to say, and I quote:

“On Saturday, 29th September, 2001, you took a police operational vehicle in the morning and drove it to the house of Nawakwi without booking yourself in an occurrence book stating the reason why you wished to drive alone to the above house without the normal team which uses the vehicle in the evening …’


Miss Nawakwi: Listen to me carefully. That is why you need to listen. There are two issues here. Should the President stoop so low as to go and fire a driver in woodlands? That is issue number one. The second issue is: where are the human rights of this officer when he was told to deliver an armed police officer at a residence of a politician? He went to pick up the same armed officer but he was told that he was spotted at my house. According to the Police Force, that constitutes gross misconduct.

That is not even the issue, the issue is that this young man was then detained for 48 hours and upon release, a truck with police officers went and bundled him out of the house. I will lay the document on the Table.

The letter was given to Superintendent Ng’andu, who says, and I quote:

‘I hereby certify that I have served the letter of dismissal on the same person.’

Mr Chairman, what amazes me is that the letter is signed by F. M. Ngangula, BA., Hons., Inspector-General of Police. That is the issue. My hon. Colleagues, where is justice? Where is the man commanding the post in Woodlands? There are many police officers who have suffered this fate. I have brought this to the attention of the hon. Minister. Inspector Mate was dismissed in the afternoon after giving evidence in court against Nawakwi. Mr Ngangula fired him and told him his conduct in court was below standard.

Hon. Members: Shame!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, we have young men and women who need to be protected. We cannot expect the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to fire a clerical officer because the Minister was appointed under the seal of the President. It will mean that the President is stooping so low as to go and fire a clerical officer. It is never done.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Miss Nawakwi: Now, the crime that these people committed was nothing other than being spotted near the house because I live opposite the Inspector-General of Police.

I appeal to the hon. Minister not to treat your citizens according to political parties they belong to. These young men and women in the Police Force are serving citizens of the Republic of Zambia. They must be given equal treatment. 

It is for that reason that I appealed last time that the hon. Minister should look at all these political cases which are clearly documented. Since it was so serious and I was getting no help, I had to report to the UN.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, there are many cases like this of men and women who have been dismissed.

In conclusion, we salute the gallant men and women in the Police Service. They need better housing and pay. Even our policemen who are escorting our Vice-President – we had two breaks this afternoon but they had nothing to eat. It should start from the convoys which are escorting us.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi laid the document on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Hon. Kazala-Laski.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Bombasa!

Mr Kazala-Laski (Nchanga): Mr Chairman, I thank you for catching my eye. Sir, I wish to commend my Government, particularly the Ministry of Home Affairs, for the job well done in trying to reduce crime in the country.


Mr Kazala-Laski: I want you to listen carefully.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Tell them!

Mr Kazala-Laski: In the UNIP Government, there was no neighbourhood watch associations, victim support unit, crime prevention unit, and so on. My party came in 1991 and introduced all these. This is good. What else do you want from us? When a child is born, the teeth do not grow at one time. They come out one by one.

Mr Minister, …


Hon. Opposition Members: You are lost!

Mr Kazala-Laski: I know what I am saying. I am not lost like you are.

Mr Minister, I commend you for a job well done. Some of these hon. Members of Parliament were Inspectors-Generals of Police. Did they visit any commission like what Hon. Munali is saying?


Mr Kazala-Laski: In my constituency, police have intensified patrols. They have even introduced police posts. Now, what else do you people want? If you have come here to destroy, we will not work together. We have come here to build one Zambia one nation. Some of you were in the Government. Hon. Munali was …


Mr Kazala-Laski: … Minister of Finance and Economic Development at one time. What did she do for the police? Nothing. Did she fund them? All she knows is insulting.


Mr Kazala-Laski: Please, this must be stopped.

I thank you, Sir.


The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Chairman, my ministry’s strategic vision is to ensure the creation of a conducive environment for the enjoyment of individual human rights, good governance and development for poverty reduction.

Mr Chairman, the Government, through my ministry, continues to take both investigatory and legislative measures to fight the drug scourge. The Drug Enforcement Commission has done a commendable job over the years in fighting drug trafficking. The arrest of 2,362 drug traffickers and the seizure of approximately K5.8 billion worth of narcotic drugs in the year 2000 is a sure signal of the determination of the Drug Enforcement Commission to rid Zambia of the drug menace. Professionalism in the conduct of drug investigations in the Drug enforcement Commission is rated among the highest in the SADC region.

Mr Chairman, money laundering is a serious crime in our country that works to undermine efforts to build a strong economy. The enactment of the Anti-Money Laundering Legislation under Act No. 14 of 2001 brings hope in the investigations of money laundering cases and the enhancement of our economy.

Mr Chairman, the work of the Drug Enforcement Commission has assumed greater significance in Zambia’s efforts to restore its good governance image.

The Prison Service, Mr Chairman, is beset with many problems which require adequate funding. There is need to pay allowances for inspection of prisons by commanders, uniforms for both the prisoners who number about 13,500 and about 1,800 prison officers.

Mr Chairman, it is my policy to ensure that the Prison Service becomes self-sufficient in food production, uniform tailoring, soap making and buildings construction. These ventures, Sir, require adequate funding. There is need to purchase enough tractors, combine harvesters, irrigation equipment, agricultural inputs, tailoring equipment and materials as well as brick-making machines and other materials for making furniture.

This august House, Mr Chairman, might wish to note that the Prison Service has an outstanding debt of K21 billion with suppliers of foodstuffs.

Mr Chairman, we have in our midst undesirable foreigners who have dubiously and illegally settled in Zambia. It is the task of my ministry, through the Immigration Department, to ensure that these are flushed out of the country and are prevented from entering Zambia.

There is urgent need to replace the aging fleet of vehicles and purchase new ones that are required to enhance effective operations, border patrols and revenue collection. 

There is also need for sufficient funding for the purchase of goods and office materials as it is vital that immigration forms are made available at all border controls. The policy of my ministry is to rotate immigration officers periodically from one station to another in order to expose them to various border experiences. There is, therefore, need for more funding on this Vote.

As a security department, officers are entitled to be accommodated by the Government and, therefore, there is need for more funding to cater for both office rentals and officers’ accommodation.

In order to enhance efficient service delivery, my ministry will ensure that everything is done to address the issue of outstanding bills arising from services and goods provided to the department in the previous year amounting to K500 million.

Mr Chairman, the issuance of national registration cards, birth and death certificates, adoption certificates, as well as passports and citizenship certificates is a responsibility of my ministry, through the National Registration Department.

These documents which put on record an individual's vital events of life such as death, birth, marriage and the grant of passport and citizenship are very important for the individual and for planning for national development. There is, therefore, a great need to strengthen the capacity of the department to perform its functions effectively and efficiently. My vision is to see a smooth and continuous issuance of national registration cards at district level. This is important if we are to have an efficient and continuous registration of voters at district level. I need to computerise the storage and issuance of the various vital documents issued by the department to ensure the installation of a state of the art management information system for efficient storage and retrieval of information.

The security features of the passport and national registration card, Mr Chairman, require to be enhanced through digitisation of photograph on the passport and national registration card. Unfortunately, budgetary constraints would not allow Government to raise K3 billion for digitisation of the passport issuance systems whilst only K700 million has been allowed for the computerisation of the issuance of national registration cards in order to facilitate the continuous voters’ registration.

Mr Chairman, there is need to expand the storage and the preservation capacity of the National Archives Department by completing the on-going extension works at the Archives Headquarters which are now at a standstill due to the fact that the contractor is owed K100 million. Adequate funding is also needed to ensure normal operations of the department.

Zambia maintains a liberal asylum policy. It acceded to the 1951 United Nations Convention relating to the status of refugees and its 1967 Protocol. It also acceded to the 1969 Convention governing the specific aspects of refugee problems in Africa. By acceding to these international instruments, Zambia is obliged to receive and grant asylum seekers refuge status.

Sir, Zambia currently plays host to 290,000 refugees located in various camps around the country. Some refugees are spontaneously located in Western, North-Western, Luapula and Northern Provinces.

Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that the operations of my ministry and its specialised departments are meant to ensure internal security, I am in this respect requesting this august House to consider favourably the Estimates of expenditure for my ministry.

Sir, allow me to quickly look at the queries raised by the hon. Members of Parliament.

First and foremost, I would like to thank Hon. Mtonga who was once upon a time, the Inspector-General of Police in this country and at the same time, Member of the Central Committee.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mapushi: In the first place, I would wish, with due respect, to note all the worthy submissions made by my colleagues. I will personally write to them with a view to capturing more views from them.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 15/01 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters – K8,061,476,888)

Mr  Kalumiana (Nalikwanda): May I have clarification on sub-head 3 – Grants and Other Payments, item 01, sub-item 003 – HIV/AIDS Programme – K65,000,000. Could the hon. Minister shade more light on what exactly will be involved or done. How are they planning these and how are they going to be linked to the activities of the National HIV/AIDS, STD, TB Council?

The Chairman: Were you in the House when His Honour the Vice-President made this clarification? He said that it was going to be found in every ministry. Were you not in the House?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, for the benefit of the hon. Member, I will say that it is the intention of the Government to introduce HIV/AIDS awareness in all Government ministries, including the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/03 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Passport and Citizenship – K527,607,069).

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 5, item 001 – Minor Works, Hard and Soft wares /consumables… …

The Chairman: On what?

Mr Mwale: Give me chance to ask, please. There is a contrast from the policy statement given by the hon. Minister and what is reflected here. There is, on Capital Expenditure, Minor Works, Hard and Soft ware /consumables which has been reduced to zero. There is Digitalised M. R. Passport that has been reduced to zero. Now, he said in his speech that, in fact, they need some money, about K700 million or so, for passports. There is zero. M. R. I believe refers to passports that have micro reading facilities. Now, there is zero on the Vote. Where are the passports? Are we saying that we have ordered enough passports for the whole year? Or will there be no passports in this country anymore until we find the money? That is the clarification I wanted to ask.

The Chairman: Well, normally when there is no figure indicated in the Yellow Book, do not worry. But for your own sake, I will ask the hon. Minister to explain what you want to know.

Mr Mapushi: We have sufficient passports for the whole year and that is why I have indicated that.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/06 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – National Registration – K4,667,442,981).

Mr Lungu (Lundazi): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 1, item 03 – Other Emoluments –K51 million plus was spent in 2001, I see now in 2002, there is a proposal of K228 million plus. Is there any explanation? I am surprised that this figure has more than  doubled.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, this figure relates to overtime payments to the officers who are going to do the continuous registration.

I thank you, Sir.

   Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairman, Sir, on sub-head 2, item 02 – Purchase of Goods – K2,771,907,124, may I know why the amount has shot up to almost 200 per cent.

   The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Chairman, Sir, the amount on sub–head 2, item 02 Recurrent Departmental Charges – K2, 771,907,124, this amount is required to procure stationary such as; photocopying paper, cleaning materials, typing paper, and pens during the year, this is in view of the continuous national registration excise as per constitutional requirement.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates 

Vote 15/11 ordered  to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Vote 15/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates 

VOTE 15/19 (Ministry of Home Affairs – Central Province – Passport and Citizenship – K40,191,694).

   Mr Sichinga:(Kafue): Mr Chairman, on Head 15/19 item 01 – Personal Emoluments -K28,458,450. This figure has gone up almost 14 times. Could the hon. Minister just clarify to us if this has been as a result of an increase in the establishment or not.

   The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Chairman, the provision is required to pay salaries to officers in Divisions 1 and 2 during this year, 2002. The figure is up in the sense that salaries have increased and that officers used to get their money through national headquarters, but now it is decentralised for everybody from Division 1 to clerical officers.

Vote 15/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/31 (Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province- Immigration Department )

   Mr  Lungu (Lundazi): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 3, item 04, Training Expenses, I notice that under this Recurrent Departmental Charges under Headquarters, Eastern Province is the only one under this Head that does not have the allocation, Training Expenses. Can I seek clarification from the hon. Minister, why this is so?

   The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Chairman, training and other programmes come under Headquarters. Normally, we do not do training in provincial centres.

   Hon. Memebrs: Aha!

   Mr Chairman: His question is that in all provinces you have this allocation for training purposes but in Eastern Province there is nothing …

   Hon. Opposition Members: Why?

   Mr Chairman: Order!

   Mr Mapushi: Mr Chairman, there is an omission on the part of our officers. We will make a correction on that one.

Thank you, Sir.


The Chairman: Do you want a correction to be done now? Do we stop here or we go ahead? Let the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning explain.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Chairman, this is an action-based Budget. If an activity is going to take place in a particular province, we make a provision. If there is not going to be that activity in that particular province, we do not make a provision.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why?

Vote 15/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


The Chairman: Order! Let us make progress. You can have an audience with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs over this issue, if you want to make it an issue. It is a simple thing. We cannot just derail everything.

Vote 15/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/34 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/39 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/42 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – North-Western Province – National Registration - K57,941,357).

Mr Katoka (Mwinilunga East): Mr Chairman, may I have clarification on sub-head 1, item 01 – Salaries – K3,262,554. Why has this reduced drastically from K33,644,800 to K3,262,554. It appears this is a salary for just one person.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairman, there is a drastic increase in wages.

Mr Sibetta: Salaries.


Mr Sakeni: We need further clarification.


Mr L. L. Phiri: Veep assist.


The Chairman: Order!

Hon. Ministers, you are supposed to have answers to all these questions before you come to the House. May we have the reasons behind the difference between these two figures. Hon. Minister of Home Afffairs? All right, I will call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, in national registration we move teams from province to province. When there is a reduction in the number of people who are working in the province, there is a reduction in funds that are intended for that province.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Defer it for tomorrow or until a proper answer is given.


The Chairman: Yes, Hon. Tetamashimba, what is your problem?

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, sorry to stand …

Mr Sibetta: No, there is no need to say sorry here.


Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, there was no answer and we were trying to lobby the hon. Minister to clarify or defer this to a later date so that he can come back with an answer. We have not got an answer for that.

I thank you, Sir.


The Chairman: Order!{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, the explanation given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is the correct one. We have removed people from North-Western Province to another place. Hence, the reduction in the purchase of services from K13,427,212 to K8,425,849. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: We are not debating this issue.

Mr Sibetta: There is a reduction in salaries for the people in your home province. You want your people not to be paid.


The Chairman: Now, those who are disputing this should refer to the Establishment Register and if they find that the figure is still intact, they should bring up the query again.

The time is 2015 hours. Do not forget that you are not knocking off until 2200 hours. Let us break off for tea.

Business was suspended from 2015 hours until 2030 hours.

The Chairman: When business was suspended, the Committee of Supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure for the year 1st January, 2002 to 31st December, 2002 was dealing with Vote 15/42. I hope that the hon. Minister can, now, clarify the query.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairman, I wish to report that …

Hon. Opposition Members: First  apologise.

Mr Sakeni: I wish to apologise to this august House. 

The budget for North-Western and Southern provinces for national registration was put under National Registration Headquarters. These include salaries for Divisions 1 and 2. That is why they are not appearing under this Vote. I am sorry for that anomaly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 15/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/44 ( Ministry of Home Affairs – Mukobeko Maximum Prison – K158,778,298)

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairman, may I have clarification on Head 15/44  …

The Chairman: Mention the number of items.

Mrs Masebo: Item 02 and 03. I notice that the allocation has been reduced, especially for item 03 …

The Chairman: Purchase of Services.

Mrs Masebo: I would like some clarifications from the hon. Minister why there is so much …

The Chairman: Purchase of Services.

Mrs Masebo: Pardon!

Sir, I wanted a clarification from the hon. Ministers on Purchase of Services and Purchase of Goods.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairman, the reduction is as a result of the budgetary constraints. 

Mr L. L. Phiri: Seminar!

Mr Sakeni: Mr Chairman, I was saying that the figure was intended to balance income and expenditure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: They need a seminar.


  Vote 15/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/46 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Societies – K27,606,525)

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, I would like some clarification on ‘Societies’ as this is a  new Vote . What are these societies?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Chairman, on Head 15/46 – K27,606,525, this amount is for the Registrar of Societies.


Vote 15/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 17/01 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Headquarters – K85,907,331,994)

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Chairman, I would like to make a few observations on this important Vote.

First of all, I would like to congratulate Hon. Silwamba on having been appointed as a representative of President Mbeki.


Mr Moonde: Mr Chairman, I would like to find out whether this is a full-time position and if so, when he is leaving for Pretoria.

Mr Chairman, having said that, I would like to say that as a country, I think we have done a lot for our colleagues, the refugees, and it is high time we diverted some of our resources to supporting our programmes. Apart from the contributions we make to the OAU and other organisations, at times we have found the Head of State contributing on behalf of the country some moneys, which have not been approved. We think we have done too much for our colleagues and that they should appreciate. The fact that some countries have been independent for thirty years and up to now they are still fighting, they have internal wars within their country, should not be condoned.

I feel that we are going to condone fighting in other countries if we are going to continuously be rendering help to those countries, which are not able to look after themselves internally.

Mr Chairman, I would also like to get an assurance from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs whether the issue of looking after refugees is well balanced. By this, I mean whether the problem of those refugees in Europe and those in Africa is being addressed. You find that the allowances being given to refugees in Europe are far higher than those given to refugees in Africa. Is it wrong to be an African refugee and right to be a European refugee?

Mr Chairman, I would also like to find out from this Government whether the problem of arrears, which are accruing in foreign missions, is being addressed. We, as a Government, are failing to pay for accommodation and in some cases we are failing to pay salaries to our officers.

Mr Chairman, it is very bad to have a situation where you look like a refugee when you are representing your country in a foreign land. There have been a lot of complaints to the effect that some of our missions have been failing to pay for accommodation; they have even been failing to pay allowances to our officers. In some cases, Sir, we have students who have been sent to foreign countries who are there but ended up not being paid the allowances due to them and this has adversely affected their performance as foreign students.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr  Sibetta: Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this very important Vote.

Mr Chairman, our country has been involved in liberation wars and helping the States of Southern Africa to attain their independence. After so many years of our investment in the liberation struggle, I think it is time countries of Southern Africa began to give Zambia respect and also regard Zambia as a midwife to these countries. Sir, the problem is that when you visit these neighbouring countries, the treatment we get, as Zambians, is not that of a good midwife. They are not giving us the respect we deserve.

Mr Chairman, I am surprised to see that our country and our Government continue to operate on double standards. The Government sends a congratulatory message to the Government of Zimbabwe on the recently held elections and then the ruling party, MMD also sends another different message to the ZANU PF which is not even a sister party to MMD. The MMD message was telling the Party ZANU PF not to worry about the problems they faced in the elections and problems that arose because the MMD too had similar problems like those faced by ZANU PF.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, Mr Mwaanga's statement watered down the statement the President sent to his counterpart. I think it was wrong for Mr Mwaanga, who is a seasoned diplomat, to send such a message which waters down his President’s message.

I know that across there, you are trying to run two parallel Governments.


Mr Sibetta: But you do not play this kind of game in foreign relations.

Mr Patel: Hanjika!

Mr Sibetta: You can do it in this House. We can tolerate you even from the replies you give us and how you fumble on the Budget.


Mr Sibetta: You should not do what you are trying to do here to other foreign States to imply that you have also rigged elections. Here, do not worry, get on with the business.


Mr Sibetta: That statement from the MMD is very bad in international relations. You are, in actual fact, making the situation for Zimbabwe very difficult.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, is it in order for the hon. Member who is debating to bring in other countries’ affairs?


Hon. Opposition Members: We are discussing foreign affairs!


Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, I am trying to say, we are bringing in other countries’ affairs and involving political parties. Political parties are not foreign affairs.

The Chairman: Will Hon. Sibetta, please, continue.


Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, we would like our Government, as we enter the New Deal administration, to minimise expenditure on regional peace initiatives. Sir, when you look at the Vote for Cabinet, the Presidential Fund, last year’s expenditure was K107 billion. When you follow it to the 1999 Report of the Auditor-General, out of K39 billion, the President spent K27 billion on regional peace initiatives, under Presidential Fund, mainly on the Congo situation and travelling to neighbouring States to arrange the OAU.

Mr Chairman, we need this money for our schools, roads and agricultural food production. We have had no food in this country for the past five years.

Hon. Opposition Member: Ten years!

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, to divert resources from the Budget to finance grandiose projects that are there just to build one man’s image when we are struggling in this House to reduce the cost of fuel and to see to it that the Government is adequately provided with funds, it does not help us. This is because the Presidential Fund is allowed to go into excess.

If the Secretary to the Cabinet, who is the Controlling Officer, could spend K107 billion to allow the then President, Dr Chiluba’s free hand, I expect it to be worse for his nephew, the current President.


Mr Sibetta: This is serious. We would like this Vote to be proper. When we come back tomorrow, we would like to be assured that there would be no Presidential Fund and District Administrators any more.

Hon. Government Members: Foreign Affairs!

Mr Sibetta: I am tying up to that. 

You know that we built the Millennium Village. The Malaysian labourers are still at the Millennium Village. Over 200 Malaysian labourers are taking jobs from our Zambian people. The job that they have done both at the Millennium Village and at Mulungushi International Conference Centre is very shoddy. The new structures that they have put up are leaking. The job is very bad. Our people would like to do these jobs for which you bring your Malaysian friends.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: The Malaysians are not even paying tax here. You are giving them free food and accommodation. Yet the job they have done is shoddy and incomplete.

Mr Chairman, for His Honour the Vice-President to say that he was given President Gadaffi’s bed is very undiplomatic.


Mr Sibetta: You should take that bed back to Libya.


Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lungu (Lundazi): Mr Chairman, I want to dwell on the question of staff training in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I wish to record, in this regard, my appreciation of the knowledge that has existed there at the Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies.

Mr Chairman, I want, however, to say that I have noticed, over the years, particularly the time when I was in the ministry, that we had very good programmes and each one of those trainees sent to this institute was deployed in the ministry but not properly deployed.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of any training is to arm the trainees so that they can carry out their responsibilities efficiently. Now, there has been an anomaly in the sense that the first group of trainees at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs who underwent this training at the Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies – I hope the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is listening. The first group of ten, I was then at the ministry, up to now some of them are still languishing at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I am using the word ‘languishing’ guardedly because really for one to be efficient in the discharge of one’s responsibilities in the ministry, one should be given the opportunity to serve both at home and abroad. This is why they are trained in diplomacy.

I was one of those who had the opportunity to be sent to Nairobi in 1976/77 for the diplomacy course and I appreciate the fact that after serving for two years at home, I was posted to Missions Abroad.

Mr Chairman, the point I am making is that there is this group of young men and women which was trained in 1993. Up to now they have spent all the years at the ministry headquarters. You can imagine the kind of demotivation with which they are carrying out their duties.

Sir, we have people in Missions Abroad who have not had training at home. I regret that for the past ten years, the Missions Abroad have been filled by most of the people who have had no training at all. This was as a result of Government, under the new culture, wanting to please the untrained cadres. I do recognise that it is the prerogative of the President to send, to Missions Abroad, the people he wants to send. But it must be understood that even those in the Civil Service also want to be given the opportunity to improve on their performance by serving both at home and abroad.

So, Mr Chairman, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and the rest of the senior staff at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to look into the plight of some of the ten young men and women I have talked about. These ten have been made to only do their work at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs headquarters since their training. I hope the hon. Minister will look into the plight of these young men and women.

I will also like to record my appreciation to the appointing authority, His Excellency the President for appointing a person who has been through the rank and file until he reached the position of Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I am referring to Mr Kapambwe who is the new Permanent Secretary in the same ministry. I have had the opportunity to work with him and I am glad that he is now at the top. I hope that the hon. Minister and his Deputy will assist him in carrying out his duties efficiently. I know the young man. He is very capable, but he needs the co-operation of the hon. Minister and his deputy.

I am sorry that I cannot lay on the Table these young men and women I have talked about. But if the Chairman asked me to bring them in the Chamber, I am sure they would be happy and I can parade them in the Chamber tomorrow.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairman, I will only contribute on Missions Abroad and relate it to the amounts that I have noticed that have been allocated to the said Vote. The previous speaker here spoke and one point he made clear and which I agree with him is that in the past, we had seen a lot of party cadres being appointed into foreign missions. This has actually affected the country in the end.

Mr Chairman, my point is this, that foreign missions are expected to assist us in, at least, getting investment. We are talking about bringing investment into the country, but because we have party cadres in the foreign missions, they are unable to assist us as a country.

So, I am appealing to the hon. Minister responsible, at least, for a change, let us have professionals in foreign affairs so that these people can assist us in bringing investment into the country instead of people just singing songs when Ministers go abroad. This is why we are finding that the Vote on expenses by Ministers travelling to foreign countries is high. Even on matters that are trivial, which are supposed to be done by those officers abroad, you find that a Minister or Permanent Secretary has to travel abroad for a minor administrative function.

The other point that I wanted to raise, Sir, was to congratulate His Excellency the President for appointing Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika.

Hon. Government Members: Aha! She is also a cadre.

Mrs Masebo: She is not a cadre.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Is His Honour the Vice-President in order to be appointing Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika who, without their hatred for her, she should have been the Secretary-General of the OAU?


The Chairman: Will the hon. Member for Chongwe, please, continue.

Mrs Masebo: I was saying that I would like to congratulate His Excellency the President for appointing Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika. She is a solid woman. This is one of the best appointments that have been made so far vis-à-vis the appointment of women. She has a track record and I think that for a change we shall be seeing quality. Her appointment is in order and long overdue. I hope the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs can follow suit in making appointments in foreign missions, especially when it comes to gender, women. We want solid women and not just numbers.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr Chitalu M.  Sampa (Kalulushi): I just want to make some few observations on some contributions and particularly, the contribution made by best friend, His Excellency, Mr Sibetta.


Mr Chitalu Sampa: It is quite sad for Hon. Sibetta to say that the amount that was spent on travelling from place to place in the SADC region was a waste. I would like to make a correction.

Mr Chairman, let us understand that it is not only Zambia that has spent such huge amounts, but a number of countries within the SADC region have spent so much money to try and find peace in the Democratic Republic of Congo. It is not correct and it is unfortunate for him to say that it was only Zambia that spent huge amounts of money.

Mr Chairman, I know very well because at that time I was Minister of Defence, I know what happened. One serious and important thing to remember is that during the time when there was serious war in the Democratic Republic of Congo, the four countries made a military pact, namely; Angola, Namibia, Zimbabwe and the Democratic Republic of Congo. It was expected that Zambia was going to join that pact. When the Zambians, through their Cabinet and MMD National Executive Committee, decided that it was not possible for Zambia to participate in such a war because it was going to be very expensive, Zambia became an enemy of other countries within the region because Zambia was hesitant to join the military pact. Now, for us to pay in a way, we used diplomacy than involving ourselves practically to fight in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

If the MMD Government had decided to join the war, this country was going to be invaded. So, to say that Zambia spent this money carelessly is unfortunate. And let us understand clearly that if we did not make those trips to try and use diplomacy to safeguard the peace for Zambia, I am positively sure that this country was going to be attacked and that, I am quite sure. And, therefore, it is important for me to clarify this point. This money was not carelessly spent just because people wanted to travel from one place to the other, no. But it saved this country from other countries that were about to invade Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Chairman, I would like to comment on the issue of the importance of Embassies. We continue to see very large entourages visiting a lot of countries when we have heard very clearly from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, emphasising the importance of our foreign missions. But we still continue to see very large entourages leaving this country to visit those countries and so, maybe, their interest is to earn some allowances. At the same time, the same Embassies are, again, ill funded by the Government. We still feel that it is not fair when we still see the former President, Dr Chiluba, going to the Democratic Republic of Congo with some of his former Ministers who lamentably failed to come back to this House…


Mr Imenda: … to go and represent this country on missions which are not of interest to this country. So, we would like to know who is funding all those trips and why there is the need for all those unproductive trips. It is because of our confused foreign policy that we are always being accused of being involved in the conflict of neighbouring countries like Angola. 

We are suspected in the case of UNITA because of gun running and hence, we are not going to continue being involved in such cases. And because we do not have a straightforward foreign policy, sometimes one would hear of even party cadres commenting on foreign policy. So, we would like to have a very clear policy with regard to how our country should be perceived from outside.

Mr Chairman, I would also like to comment on the issue of lack of funds in foreign missions. We are very disappointed when we hear our Missions Abroad failing to pay rent and salaries to our staff representing this country. We are perceived in a very bad manner by those countries that we represent. So, we would like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in conjunction with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to assure this House that those embarrassing moments will not resurface.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Musonda C.  Sampa (Mporokoso): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. 

Mr Chairman, I would like to comment on our neighbouring countries. Wars in the neighbouring countries become ours in the sense that those refugees that come into our country, if left unchecked, can take over our land, food and other things. Moreover, they come with diseases such as cholera. Right now, in Kaputa, over 2,000 refugees entered in the last few days. How can a responsible Government ignore such a high risk to the nation?

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, I heard very carefully what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said earlier about why it is important for us to have foreign missions because they can be useful to us. But in my experience, in the last ten years or to date, is that it is very rare that a delegation from Government is cancelled because our Ambassador can do the job. I have only seen about two or three statutory instruments that delegated the responsibility to the Ambassador to sign agreements. 

So, taking that into consideration, and I have visited a number of our missions overseas, they are in a deplorable state. They get their water and electricity disconnected. The officers are not paid on time. So, the question, hon. Minister, is this: if you do not have sufficient funds, why should we have all these missions? Are we going to look after them properly? I think there is need to have a cost-effective study on this whole issue of foreign missions. 

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning particularly, will recall that in the early 1990s he said, in this House, that he needs to re-examine whether or not it is viable for our country to have some missions and whether we can run them or not. And much to our surprise, because you were absent for a few years, is that, in fact, you added one or two more like Geneva and a few others. 

Mr Chairman, take, for example, in the Yellow Book, on (xii), under Head 2 – Other Emoluments, 019 – Education Allowance - K6.6 billion. This amount has been allocated for education allowances for diplomats’ children. In fact, these are numbers we rarely looked at. This is a much higher figure than the entire K5 billion that the hon. Minister proposed for the primary school bursaries in our country. I am sure you can see the magnitude of the issue here. We are spending K6.6 billion for diplomats’ children but K5 billion for primary school bursaries for the whole country. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame.

Mr Patel: Now, I do not know. I think that during the course of this session, you must look at (xii) – Education Allowance. In fact, I remember debating this issue with the officials at the Catholic Commission for Justice and Peace post Budget meeting. But all I am saying is that at some point, you need to have a very critical look at the number of Embassies that we have and not put aside that they will do all our work. You have issued a statutory instrument for delegated responsibility to an Ambassador, maybe, three times in the last ten years. 

So, I hope you will do a cost-effective study. We need to have missions that we can be proud of. You cannot have diplomats with their water disconnected, roofs leaking, and are being served with eviction notices. That is an embarrassment. So I hope that during the course of this year, the hon. Minister will critically see how many missions we can afford and look after properly. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena (Solwezi East): Mr Chairman, I just want to find out from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs what benefit we get from these foreign missions. Zambians have very little opportunity to travel out of the country and yet the information gathered in these countries where we spend so much is never availed to the people. When you go to the United States of America, you will find a department called the State Department. You will find all the information about Zambia, even about constituencies, and even how we live and the level of poverty. But to my surprise, we spend so much money educating our friends’ children and they do not pay us back. Today, we have a funny vocabulary like liberalisation of the economy. Where do we get all this? We are getting confused. 

When you go to Germany, you find people are driving German cars and are proud as that is part of their tradition. When you go to Sweden, you find the Volvo cars, they do not say, no, do not manufacture the Volvo, let us order the Benz. But here, you say, do not produce your maize, and you import maize. And when you import that maize, you say, the maize produced in your own country should be purchased at US$60 per metric tonne while the maize you import should be purchased at US$240 per metric tonne. What do we get as a benefit from the money that we spend. Are we going to have a library or an office where we are going to have all the information collected so that we are educated?

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister for North-Western Province (Mr Mushala): Mr Chairman, I support the Vote. It is not only obvious but for the reasons that I am going to state. Mr Chairman, this ministry is very important and I know that if we understand it, we will come to a conclusion that actually we need to allocate the Ministry of Foreign Affairs more funds.

Mr Chairman, I would like to pay tribute to all serving foreign officials. Hon. Members, you will be travelling out of Zambia and very soon you will realise how important these foreign missions are. You will be in certain countries where you will not even be able to speak English and you will not even know the airport set-up. It is these very dedicated Zambians who will come to your assistance and I think we need to support them. This Government, in supporting that, has effected some increase. We are going to have these questions being raised as to why there has been an increase in these other emoluments.

We have very few Missions Abroad because Zambia is very poor. If we had the right number, it would have been easier for our colleagues in the foreign missions to cater for Zambia. You find that one Ambassador or High Commissioner in Brussels, in Belgium, is also covering France. So, they are so busy. Now, one thing you must understand is that Zambia is not an island. 

We are part of the global network and because of that we have to spend money for us to know what is happening in this world. I know that Hon. Lungu, who was in the foreign missions, did not even say much. His complaint was about the students who trained at the Institute of Diplomacy and International Studies but have not been posted to Missions Abroad. It is just like studying, you acquire your ACCA and not get a job but one day, it will come. They will also be sent into Foreign Service.

Mr Sichilima: Like the New Deal administration.

Mr Mushala: So, they should not be discouraged. What is important is that they went to school and are educated. So, their time will come.

Mr Chairman, I would like to urge my colleagues in this House that when we come to the Vote of the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, we should support the Vote of that ministry.

Mr Situmbeko: Correct!

Mr Mushala: Let me refer to Hon. Masebo’s comment that there have been cadres who have been sent out to Mission Abroad. Sir, they may not even be cadres. We do not have economic attachés attached to our missions because we do not have enough funds in the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. When we support the Vote, these people will be paid and funded by the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. It is the ministry that will send them into foreign missions, just like the defence attachés who are paid from the Ministry of Defence.

Mr Silwamba: And Ministry of Tourism.

Mr Mushala: I thank you very much, Hon. Silwamba.

These are some of the things that we must understand when we are looking at these figures because it is the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry that will send these ladies and gentlemen to represent Zambia and understand the economic situation in that part of the world where they are.

You have spoken about investment which is very important to us but without funding, the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry will get nowhere. We need more of these missions. We speak of gender most of the time. When I am speaking it is like I am against gender balance, when I am not. I would like to call upon our Zambian sisters that they must be women of substance. They must be suitable to be sent into these foreign missions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Solids!


Mr Mushala: They must be solids.


Mr Mushala: But as long as they are not suitable, we have a problem. So, it is up to women Parliamentarians to ensure that they do their best. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to comment on the large entourage that my brother …


Mr Mushala: Dipak, what is your problem? You were in Government.

Mr Haakaloba: On a point or order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haakaloba: Thank you for noticing me.

Mr Chairman, is the hon. Provincial Minister in order to suggest that the suitability that Hon. Masebo talked about was actually physical? I thought she meant …


The Chairman: Will Hon. Mushala, please, continue?

Mr Mushala: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I know that my brother is a Tonga bull, so, he normally looks at the physical part.


Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, I was trying to make a slight comment on my brother from Western Province who was saying that at times when there are foreign trips, there are certain people who may have lost elections but are accompanying delegations. On the other hand, they are saying that His Excellency the President has done very well by appointing Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika who lost an election.


Mr Mushala: So, we must always compare these things. What I want to say is that there may come a time when you are going to Angola and your entourage may be big on technicality.

You may have a professional who understands the subject but does not speak the language in that country. So, you are forced to carry a Lozi because you are going to a Lozi-speaking country. You may not have someone who knows how to type, so, you carry someone to do that. So, do not blame the Government for the entourages. Let us first understand the reasons. It would be different if everybody here became computer literate and able to use the laptop and speak French. You can go alone, there is no problem. 

But if you look at Zambia, most of us do not speak French. Now, if you go for a meeting in Paris, say to the so-called consultative group meeting, you need to go with someone who can speak French. If you do not know how to use a laptop, you need to carry someone to put the things right for you there.

Mr Chairman, let us try to know the details of the Zambians. Let us have confidence in ourselves because when we start having confidence in ourselves, then we will start to know the foreign relationship, the diplomacy and it must start in Zambia, amongst ourselves and I call on this House that let us be diplomatic.

   Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, I thank you.

   Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Chairman, I will not attempt to correct the name, I might just aggravate my situation with the Lozi fraternity.

   Mr Sibetta: Haakaloba!

   Mr Haakaloba: Correct, thank you very much.


   Mr Haakaloba: Mr Chairman, in contributing to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I would like to request the Government to be serious in scrutinising the people we send to the Foreign Service. I want to make reference to one former diplomat who is not in the House now. There is a temptation that because at home, we may be poor, the people we send into the diplomatic service end up peddling in drugs. And I think it is unfortunate that sometimes even timely warnings, which come from the Opposition Members are ignored. 

   I remember, Sir, an article from the appointing authority where they tried to cover or exonerate a drug baron by calling him a reformed person now in the House.


   Mr Haakaloba: So, I think that as long as our attitude does not change to properly categorise Members of the Opposition, we are also stakeholders in the running of Government and that is why we are at pains sometimes to make the people (our Executive) realise that we are serious people when we come here and the concerns that we show actually do not come from our heads alone, they come from our electorate. The name Vernon Mwaanga has been changed to Vernon Mwansa and …


   Mr Patel: Hallelujah.

   Mr Chairman: Order! In politics, you always talk about leveling the play ground - giving everybody equal opportunity. Now, when you start talking about somebody who is not in the Chamber to defend himself, is that fair? Do to others as you wish them do to you. Will you,  please, continue.

   Mr Haakaloba: … Mr Chairman, in the interest of progress, I will move on to praise some of the people who are serving in Missions Abroad. I remember an incidence where one of my relatives was in South Africa and they were looking for Nshima and the Zambian Mission at that time was served by a name, which I will not give in the House because they are not here.


   Mr Haakaloba: But I want to appreciate the fact that sometimes foreign missions serve a useful purpose to our nationals who go there under very needy conditions and as such, I would like to propose or support the fact that the Missions Abroad should be better funded than they are today.

   Mr Chairman, I thank you.

   Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity …

   Dr Sondashi  interjected.

   Mr Hachipuka: You were not here, how can you debate, Crocodile?


   Mr Shepande: … to debate on the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and in supporting, of course, the Vote of this ministry, but in doing so, I would like to state that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is one of the key ministries of any Government. It has the role of promoting the image of the country abroad and as such, it must be a ministry, which is very well manned in terms of staff and for this reason, I would like to call on the Government and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to establish a career diplomatic service.

   Many Zambians have called for a career diplomatic service where we have professionals who would service our Embassies abroad and who would also grow through these institutions to promote the image of the country. One would ask as to why for so many years now, we are not able to produce a Secretary-General of the Organisation of African Unity (OAU) …

   Hon. Opposition Members: They refused Inonge .

   Mr Shepande: … why for so many years, we have not been able even to contest the position of Secretary-General of the United Nations let alone the Commonwealth and many other international organisations. The reason for this is that we do not have a career diplomatic and Foreign Service. This is a very futurist position, which we must take if we are going to play a very meaningful role in the international arena.

   Sir, I would also like to comment on the conditions of service of our staff abroad. I believe that the performance of the members of the diplomatic service (Zambia staff) will be greatly enhanced if the missions are well financed. Contacts with these diplomats will give you the impression that many of them are living like paupers. Their salaries and allowances are not comparable to those of their colleagues even within the region. Sir, it is important that Zambia’s image is promoted. As of now, even within the region, I think that Zambia’s diplomatic image is at its lowest ebb. We do not enjoy very good relations with our neighbours because …

   Mr Sibetta: Except Malawi.

   Mr Shepande: … of a number of factors most of which relate to governance issues, abuse of power and authority and abuse of public resources. All these have tended to reduce our image in the estimation of our neighbours. I do hope that the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will do his best to try and improve this image with our neighbours. Talking about members of the diplomatic community, it is quite clear that our closest neighbour now in terms of diplomatic service is only Malawi. We do not enjoy very good relations with South Africa, Zimbabwe, Angola, Mozambique …

   Mr Situmbeko: Namibia.

   Mr Shepande: … and other countries and I think that the New Deal Government should make an earnest attempt …

   Mr Sibetta: To redeem.

   Mr Shepande: … to redeem our lost image in the region.

   Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

   Mr Shepande: Sir, promotion of the rule of law which I am glad is being emphasised by President Mwanawasa should try and redeem us from this lost image in the last ten years. It is important that we perform to the expectations of the international community in terms of reform of our Constitution. We should improve our image internationally by giving serious thought to reforming the Constitution of this country.

   Mr Chairman, the Constitution of this country gives too much power to one person. I think that power should be shared equally between the Executive and the Legislature. Power should be shared equally with the Executive in terms of separation of power between the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary. Our image has suffered greatly because of too much Executive influence on the Judiciary and similarly …

The Chairman: Order! You are now debating other issues.

Mr Shepande: This is foreign affairs image. 

The Chairman: The Judiciary?

Mr Shepande: Yes, it is. The separation of power between the Executive, the Judiciary and the Legislature, is a question of image building. Any interference on the Judiciary will have a negative effect, Mr Chairman, on how people perceive us internationally.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you.


The Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Chambeshi): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to contribute and to congratulate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Mr Kasonde, for the able manner in which he presented the National Budget. Mr Chairman, the Budget presented to this House provides an excellent overview of the Government’s commitment to the country’s development programmes. It has, indeed, been acclaimed by various stakeholders, including the international community.

As the President mentioned when he officially opened Parliament on 22nd February, we will strive to generate our own resources, but we still need assistance from our international partners. It is, therefore, my sincere hope that our co-operating partners will respond favourably in rendering the support required from them as we translate our vision into reality.

Sir, regarding the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, I wish to assure this House that given the necessary tools and support, the ministry stands ready to accomplish the tasks that have been assigned to it to ensure effective articulation and implementation of our foreign policy. It is in this respect, Sir, that I welcome and appreciate the encouraging remarks made by hon. Members during the debate on this ministry’s Estimates of expenditure.

Dear colleagues, without your continued support, this ministry would not make any meaningful achievements in international relations. Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is in the process of being restructured under the Public Service Reform Programme (PSRP). It is my sincere hope that the end result of the exercise will be the retention of qualified staff who will be well motivated. Furthermore, cost-sharing measures in Missions Abroad, which were introduced partly in response to concerns expressed in this very House by former Members of the House, will complement this restructuring exercise.

Hon. Members will be pleased to learn that the measures introduced last year in the areas of education, health and utilities have already resulted in significant reduction in expenditure by our Missions Abroad. This, I believe, goes a long way to demonstrate that the allocation of my ministry that you are considering today will be used prudently. 

Sir, my ministry plays a very special role, indeed, a key role of facilitating Government and non-Government interaction with the international community, which brings into Zambia development funds and ensures our own national security. The meetings, in the international fora which we, on the Government’s side and, I believe, even on the Opposition side, attend when we travel abroad, plus, of course, the work of our Missions Abroad, all contribute to the desired results.

Mr Chairman, I wish to take this opportunity to inform the House that visits by the Committees on National Security and Foreign Affairs, Public Accounts and so on, to our Missions Abroad are, definitely, welcome and the New Deal administration encourages such visits which would give hon. Members of these committees an opportunity to see for themselves and appreciate the operations of our Missions Abroad in their respective locations.

Mr Chairman, in the field of foreign relations, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, over the years, has made tremendous achievements. Our foreign policy has been articulated to such an extent that Zambia has, indeed, earned the respect of a number of countries, contrary to what my friend, Hon. Shepande, would like us to believe. Furthermore, Zambia has interacted successfully with the rest of the international community by participating in multilateral diplomacy. This will be continued and even strengthened, where need arises in the future, for contribution to be made to efforts at mediation of conflicts in our neighbouring countries.

This House, Sir, is aware, I am sure, that Zambia is still Chairman of the Organisation of African Unity and thus has to provide good leadership and also make for a smooth transition to the African Union until South Africa takes over from us in July this year. In addition, Sir, Zambia, as you know, is still involved in the mediation process in the Democratic Republic of Congo as overall co-ordinator.

Mr Chairman, as I wind up my debate, allow me now to make reference to some of the observations made by some hon. Members of the House when it was their turn to speak.

I wish to make reference to comments made by Hon. Moonde who talked about the influx of refugees into this country. According to him, Sir, he felt that we have already done enough for these refugees and that we should now concentrate our efforts on looking after own people.

Sir, I am sure I do not need to remind hon. Members that we are a signatory to certain international conventions that require us to provide all the assistance we can possibly provide to these refugees. The question of refugees is one problem that you cannot say, it would never happen to you or to your own country. So, we owe it to the international community to provide this sort of assistance. 

As far as the help that is given to the refugees in Europe is concerned, Zambia has in the past complained to the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) that this country in particular, requires additional help because it accommodates so many refugees. But, I would like to mention, Sir, that from what I know, having worked for the UNHCR myself, the European countries contribute a lot of money to refugee causes because of having strong economies. This is why, perhaps, it looks like refugees in Europe receive much more assistance than those in Africa.

Sir, I also wish to make reference to comments made by my Mulamu, Hon. 

Mr Sibetta: My sister married you.


Mr Chambeshi: Sir, Hon. Sibetta said that some of the neighbouring countries that we  assisted during their struggle for independence are not giving due recognition to such assistance, especially in the way they behave towards Zambians. Mr Chairman, the entire international relations are based on the concept of reciprocity and, it is our right, of course, to demand that our people be treated fairly and as equally as possible. In the final analysis, Sir, this really is a matter for each individual country to decide. I am sure that in the past whenever our people have been ill-treated, we made strong representations to those countries that were in default and I think that those matters have been resolved amicably, as far as I am aware.

Hon. Sibetta also made reference to the need for us to minimise the cost of regional peace initiatives. Sir, I am quite aware of the need for us, as individuals and even as a country, to tailor our suit to fit the material that is available in terms of cash resources. However, I think that one needs to emphasise the very special geo- political situation that this country is in, having eight neighbours all around us, and the fact that this country does not even have a coast line. 

Sir, this places us in a very vulnerable situation, where we must invest in peace. We are a landlocked country as everybody is aware. If we just watch our neighbours’ houses go up in flames, without assisting them to put out those fires, who knows what happens next time to our own house. Sir, I have no quarrel with the idea that everything has to be done with a sense of balance, but peace is a very expensive commodity. 

Hon. Lungu talked about graduates from the local diplomatic institute, that these graduates have not been posted to Missions Abroad, and that instead they are still languishing within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. As far as I am aware, these graduates are being put to very good use within the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.


Mr Chambeshi: When vacancies appear, when those that are serving abroad are recalled, these trained diplomats will start to be sent abroad as and when an opportunity provides itself. I have already indicated that the ministry is undergoing restructuring, so all these things are going to be considered.

My sister, Hon. Masebo, I thank you for the congratulatory sentiments you have extended to us concerning the appointment of Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika as Ambassador Plenipotentiary, even if she missed the opportunity of becoming Secretary General of the OAU.

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you, for admitting.

Mr Chambeshi: At least, this is another opportunity for her to serve her country to the best of her ability.

Sir, Hon. Chiti Sampa made reference to some refugees in Kaputa who entered Zambia, and I think the number of 2,000 was mentioned. My ministry is not aware of such a high number of refugees entering Zambia and although, of course, there may be a danger of cholera coming into our country, this is a challenge that the Ministry of Health will hopefully rise to.

Hon. Patel regretted the hardships that some of our diplomats abroad are suffering or enduring, such as water disconnections, and so forth. Sir, I only need to mention that over the last nine years, we have closed down seven Embassies as a cost-saving measure.   This situation is constantly being reviewed as time goes on, we shall keep reviewing the cost effectiveness of maintaining the twenty-four missions that we run abroad. As far as the lack of funds to pay rentals and water are concerned, Sir, cost-sharing measures are now in force in the ministry so that the staff that opt for expensive accommodation, for example, share the cost of paying for such rentals with the ministry.

Hon. Mushala, I thank you very much for your comments with regard to the need to maintain Embassies abroad….

The Chairman: Order!


(MR. SPEAKER in the Chair)
(Progress reported)



The House adjourned at 2157 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 20th March, 2002.