Debates- Tuesday, 26th March, 2002

Printer Friendly and PDF


Tuesday, 26th  March, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





Mr Speaker: As a follow up to the announcement I made to the House on Wednesday, 20th March, 2002, regarding the live or pre-recorded coverage of the proceedings of the House that will from time to time be done, I wish to inform the House that ZNBC Television is today carrying out a live test transmission of the proceedings of the House. This is part of the on-going Parliamentary Reform Programme. On your behalf, I wish to thank the management and members of staff of ZNBC for this test facility.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, Hear!




The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the report of the Committee be adopted. 

Mr Speaker: Notice of a further amendment to the Bill has been received.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I beg to move an amendment in Appendix II, on page 55, under paragraph (b) (ii), in line 3, by the deletion of “30%” and the substitution therefore of “45%.” 

Sir, I wish to thank you most sincerely for allowing me to defer the Bill before the House twice. I also wish to thank Members of the Opposition for having reflected on and listened to my plea for moving this amendment. The amendment, as proposed by Hon. Sibetta, could have meant the Government straining its expenditure on social and other sectors that everyone knows are key to lifting the standards of living of our people.

Mr Speaker, I need to assure hon. Members from the Opposition that their views have been well-understood and taken note of. May I assure this august House that the Government is seriously addressing the issue of petroleum products through the procedural means other than reduction of  tax. Our ultimate goal will be to make this product cheaper and affordable.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development will be making a statement, in this House before the end of this week, which will entail substantial reduction in all petroleum products.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: Sir, in view of the foregoing, I am seeking the support of all the Members of the House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, the amendment the hon Minister of Finance and National Planning is proposing as a counter amendment to my proposal cannot stand the test of time. This Government is wasteful. They are currently spending on cellular phones more than what is proposed in this amendment. This Government is equally spending more than what is proposed in my amendment on overseas and regional trips. The Government even took a large delegation to go and attend the first anniversary of the death  of a former Head. This Government is very wasteful and only if it puts its house in order, they will give farmers, transporters, the mines, the travelling public and everybody a relief and, through this, keep the economy in production once more. 

The hon. Minister needs to go back to his civil servants and do some more work to see how he can cut on Government spending. This Government, Sir, is further wasting money by employing District Administrators. These are unconstitutional and unproductive people who have been fused into the Civil Service. These were political appointees by the outgoing regime of President Chiluba. They are being paid billions of kwacha. Throwing them out of employment will save this, but this Government is refusing. It is putting its head in the sand like an ostrich by refusing to meet the facts being presented. 

So, I urge all my friends in the Opposition to categorically throw out this amendment and let my amendment stand so that we can get the farmers, the mines, the transporters and everybody back to production. 

I thank you Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, the question of District Administrators and the way they were appointed is being addressed. Already policy changes have been announced in the sense that all District Administrators who wish to remain in the Civil Service can do so, but those who wish to leave can also do so.

Secondly, let me address this question in relation to the Budget. District Administrators are employed on contract. So, even if all of them were removed from the Public Service today, we will have to repatriate them and in the end, we will save nothing. In fact, we might need to add more money to get them out of the offices.

So, Sir, I do not think that the question of District Administrators has anything to do with the saving of money at this point in time.

Mr Sibetta: Presidential Fund!

Mr Kasonde: With regard to the Presidential Fund and the delegations, let me say this that the President himself has complained about the large delegations and action is being taken by Cabinet Office to reduce every delegation that leaves this country. So, I do not think that that is a case that one can bring down on this amendment.

Mr Speaker, I feel very confident that the measures that the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development has taken will more than restore the balance and compensate for any of the wishes that the Opposition Member legitimately holds.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: The House will recall that the Report Stage of the Bill was deferred twice to allow for further consultations on the matter. The Chair is satisfied that further consultations have taken place and that it is now at this point that the House should decide as to which way you wish to go on the Report Stage of the Bill.

Mr Sibetta: called for division .

Question that the Report be adopted, put and the House voted.

Ayes (64)

Mr Appel
Mr A. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chama
Mr Chambeshi
Mr Chewe
Mr J. S. Chilufya
Mr S. Chilufya
Miss R. Chipampe
Mr S. B. Chipampe
Mr Chipili
Mr Chisala
Ms Chisupa
Mr Chitala
Dr Chituwo
Mr G. C. Chulumanda
Mr R. K. Chulumanda
Mr A. J. D. Chungu
Mr E. K. Chungu
Mr Filamba
Lt-Col. Kafumukache
Mr Kalunga
Mr Kamwendo
Mrs Kapijimpanga-Kangoma
Mr Kasonde
Mr Katema
Mr Kavindele
Mr Kazala-Laski
Mr Kombe
Mr Kunda
Mr Lembalemba
Mr Mabenga
Mr Manjata
Mr Mapushi
Mr Mazimba
Mr Mfula
Mr Mpombo
Mr Mukuka
Mr Mulanda
Mr Mulela
Mr Mulenga
Mr Muliokela
Mr Mumba
Mr Musanya
Mr Mushala
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwaba
Mr Mwape
Mr Mwila
Miss Namugala
Mr Nsanda
Mrs Nsingo
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sambwa
Mr Chitalu M. Sampa
Mr Chiti M. Sampa
Mr Sichilima
Mr Sikatana
Mr Silavwe
Mr Silwamba
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinkala
Mr Sokontwe
Dr Sondashi
Mr Zimba

Tellers for Eyes: Mr S. K. Mukuka and Mr R. J. N. Banda

Noes- (72).

Mr Badat
Mr C. R. Banda
Mrs R. C. Banda
Mr Y. H. Banda
Mr Chibanga
Mr Chikoti
Mr Chitanga
Mr Gray
Mr Haakaloba
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Imenda
Miss Jere
Mr Kabaghe
Dr Kabanje
Mr C. W. Kakoma
Miss Q. V. Kakoma
Mr Kalumiana
Mr Kangwa
Mr Kapita
Mr Kasoko
Mr Katoka
Mr Kayaba
Mr Liato
Mr Lubinda
Mr Lungu
Col. Makumba
Mrs Masebo
Mr Masowe
Mr Matongo
Mr Moonde
Mr Mooya
Mr Mubiana
Mr Mudenda
Mr Mukwakwa
Mr Muleya
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Mr E. M. Musonda
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mwale
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Nakalonga
Mr Nang’omba
Miss Nawakwi
Mr Ng’uni
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal
Mr Ntundu
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Patel
Mr I. M. Phiri
Mr L. L. Phiri
Mr P. G. Phiri
Mr Pwele
Mr Samukonga
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Shemena
Mr Shepande
Mr Shumina
Mr Siakalima
Ms Sialumba
Mr Sibetta
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sikota
Mr Simenda
Mr Situmbeko
Mrs Wamulume
Mrs I. M. Wina
Major-General D. Zulu
Mr P. M. Zulu

Tellers for Noes:  Mr R. Muyanda and Mr R. K. Chulumanda

Mr Speaker: It sounds to me as if the Ayes have it.


Question put and agreed to 

Report, as amended, adopted.

Third Reading on Wednesday, 27th March, 2002



VOTE 65/01 – Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training – Headquarters – K39,346,987,534).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mwape): Mr Chairman, when business was suspended on Friday, at 2155 hours, I was advancing a point in support of Estimates for the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. At the point of interruption, I had said that one wind does not make a summer, meaning that, it is practically impossible that we would all expect all expectations of skilled manpower development in this nation to be addressed in one Budget proposal. We have to understand that the problem of non-universal skills development in this country is of an evolutional nature, rather than of a revolution nature. That is the point I was trying to get to. That we should recognise that for some time, there has not been a deliberate intention to extend skills training to all Zambians in our trades training institutes and colleges. It is time that we started re-thinking our way forward.

Mr Chairman, it would be unthinkable for us to say we may not need the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training and to further suggest that the same should be fused in other ministries because the same was made or formulated with a clear intention and purpose and for which purpose, we all should subscribe to, for a reason or reasons that we need skills training in our industries. We need technicians and technologists for us to manage our so much desired industries in this country.

Therefore, Mr Chairman, if anything, the best we can do is to accept that the amounts allocated to this ministry are not even adequate to go round the country. However, this is a beginning, we are merely laying the foundation for the purpose and with an intention to start expanding on it. I, therefore, support the Vote.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

The Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Chambeshi): I thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Estimates of Expenditure for my ministry.

First of all, I wish to express my gratitude to my constituents for returning me to this august House. I further wish to thank his Excellency the President for appointing me to serve, once again, as Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training.

Sir, my ministry is responsible for overseeing the development of science and technology and provision of vocational skills training in the country. Since the MMD came into power in 1991, we have made some epoch-making changes to the structure and content of technical education. In the field of science and technology, however, we have not moved as swiftly as one would have liked. As a result, we still have to take some further steps to complete the changes we started at the end of 1999.

Sir, these changes are extremely important because, firstly, they underpin all the other efforts that we have been attempting to make in order for Zambia to become more competitive in inter-regional and international trade and   in order for Zambia to come out of the shackles of extreme poverty.

After taking power in 1991, the MMD Government declared its intention to strive towards achieving the target of apportioning three per cent of the value of the country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to education. However, although reliable figures may not be immediately available showing how we faired in this respect, it is generally acknowledged that funding problems prevented us from achieving that target. 

I am happy, however; to note that since the implementation of BESSIP in the field of general education, a determined effort has been made to achieve that macro-economic target of three per cent. 

In the field of vocational skills training, another determined effort was made with the adoption of what was initially referred to as TISSP, which we have since re-named “The Technical Education Vocational and Enterprenuership Training Development Programme”, or in short the ‘TEVET Development Programme,’ or indeed TDP.

Mr Chairman, I would like at this juncture to pay special thanks to our co-operating partners, the World Bank, the Netherlands Government, the Danish Government, the German Government, Canadian CIDA, JICA and the International Labour Organisation (ILO) for having assisted my ministry in arranging funding for TDP, to the tune of more than US $50 million. TDP is a five-year programme, which in real earnest started last month. It seeks to commence the process of overhauling and modernising technical education right from the classroom instructor, through curriculum review and into the factories and industries, both private and publicly owned. It will draw on the practices and lessons provided by other developing countries, such as Egypt, Singapore, Malaysia, India and South Korea who, due to foresight and courage, have already started to fill and to enjoy the fruits of their early heavy investment in general and technical education.

Mr Chairman, because of the need for us to modernise technical education at the same time as we are modernising policies and practices in other fields of education or economic ventures, our ministry has commissioned a more comprehensive review of the science and technology system. This is the system that deals with scientific research and the general scientific culture of the nation. We have already established the National Science and Technology Council, which is now co-ordinating activities within the research sub-sector in the same way TEVETA co-ordinates activities within the training sub-sector. But, we feel we must move further to re-organise and strengthen institutions such as NISIR or the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research.

So, Sir, we are taking steps to ensure that all such research institutions are efficiently managed and better co-ordinated, including, of course, those that for now do not fall under the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training.

We need to introduce measures that, for instance, ensure that all ministries and other public institutions are audited; audited in terms of modern scientific practices, in a manner somewhat similar to the way we tackled the ‘millennium bug.’ Sir, in these matters, our resolve may be summarised by the famous phrase, “If South Korea did it why can we not do it?”

I am pleased to note, Sir, that most Members of this House are aware that these efforts will require additional, consistent, or sustained funding, and this funding will come largely from the Treasury. I, therefore, want to sincerely thank my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, for increasing by K4 billion the budgetary allocation to our ministry headquarters, and for substantially increasing the funding to institutions under my ministry in this year’s Budget. I, particularly, want to thank him for agreeing to fund the restructuring of the National Institute for Scientific and Industrial Research (NISIR), which over the years has been slowly dying.

However, in absolute terms, this increase in funding allocations is by far too little to make a big impact. For example, last year, the release of funding to rehabilitate existing infrastructure and for the construction of new training centres was simply not available.

In the training sub-sector especially, we require more funds to increase classroom space and to build laboratories, workshops and offices at Mongu, Chipata, Solwezi, Kaoma and Ukwimi in Petauke, where the existing skills training centres are currently operating from temporary premises.

We realise, of course, that one can only tailor the dress to suit the available cloth as the saying goes. However, I wish to appeal to this House to sympathetically review our case should we decide to come back to the House to request supplementary funding later this year. We have a gigantic responsibility of equipping all our young people with life-long skills and survival skills.

As hon. Members of this House maybe aware, out of the entire population of this country, only about five per cent or half a million people are in formal employment, and an estimated 4,000,000 or shall we say forty per cent of the eligible workforce are either unemployed or are scraping for a living as self-employed in the so-called informal sector.

Mr Chairman, when a few years ago we sampled those who are in the informal sector, we were shocked to find that the majority of them, that is to say, about ninety-five per cent had not received any formal training in how to run their SIDOs or their small businesses. Is it any wonder, therefore, that Zambian goods are failing to compete even in the intra-regional trade? This may also, perhaps, be the reason why Zambia has become a dumping ground for goods produced elsewhere. This is why my ministry decided to include entrepreneurship training in the curriculum of its training institutions. Indeed, if Members of Parliament complain that non-Zambians bought the majority of privatised parastatals, we must plan to change that situation so that an ever-increasing cadre of indigenous businessmen and women can start to take an increasing share of the economic cake of the country.

   We cannot achieve that kind of ‘New Deal’ if our technical colleges do not include entrepreneurship in their curricula. Indeed, Sir, Zambians cannot hope to take an ever-increasing share of the national economic cake if you, hon. Members of Parliament, deny my ministry enough funding to enable me create a bursary scheme for a good number of our poor and vulnerable students, who would like to study computer science or carpentry or, indeed, gemology to mention a few amongst the other economically relevant subjects.

I have talked before, Sir, about the need to set up a national training fund, which could be used on a more sustainable basis to provide bursaries and to finance infrastructure and other investments in the training sector. So, I promise to return to this Chamber with proposals for setting up a national training fund and for the introduction of a training levy. I look forward to receiving the enthusiastic support of this august House. 

In the meantime, however, my ministry is making preparations to mount workshops for Members of Parliament and other stakeholders to explain, in detail, how we propose to utilise the foreign loan funds and other grants, which are being ploughed into the training sector and into our TDP.

Overall, Sir, the year just ended was devoted to planning for the implementation of the new institutional framework established for science, technology and vocational and entrepreneurship training. Hon. Members will have seen from the Yellow Book that mention is made of new institutions, such as the National Technology Business Centre, the National Science and Technology Council and the National Remote Sensing Centre.

Mr Chairman, last year and the year before that, the ministry made good progress in establishing these new institutional frameworks. This was made possible, thanks to the fact that there was slight improvement in the release of funding to the recurrent departmental charges as compared to the previous years. Also, the release of HIPC resources amounting to K1.9 billion enabled our institutions to improve their capacities in providing various skills.

As you know, Sir, life long training in skills acquisition and entrepreneurship is one of the best ways of alleviating poverty. However, the recently established institutions, which I have just mentioned, will also be requiring permanent accommodation. Where are we going to find resources to build such accommodation, yet in our development plans, these institutions will occupy a truly pivotal role and serve as a catalyst in strengthening our efforts towards increased innovation, transfer, diffusion and commercialisation of technologies and the provision of user facilities to our general public?

Mr Chairman, even as late as last night, ZNBC television showed the efforts of a young Zambian entrepreneur cum researcher who has perfected a new method of making a welding machine using brine or salt solution, instead of using expensive electro magnetic coils. Now, he wants sponsorship in form of money to perfect his invention and to be able to market it. But where will the money come from?

Again, last week I was visited by another youngman who is looking for sponsorship and US$500,000 million to perfect a new and cheaper method of reducing AIDS-related deaths by 50 per cent within the next ten years. Where will the money come from?

Mr Sibetta: From the Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Chambeshi: Hon. Members can, therefore, see why this ministry is looking for their support, and why we are seeking to create initiatives for strengthening linkages between researchers and research institutions on the one hand, and industry on the other hand; to conduct public awareness and promotional events on the role of science and technology in socio-economic development; to continue with our efforts at gender mainstreaming; to promote indigenous information and communications technologies; and to improve the management of donor-funded projects.

Sir, although we have lost a lot of young talent to the private sector and to the SADC region especially, we still have the scientific personnel to look into things like the possibility of coming up with a maize seed variety that can be successfully grown after the traditional rain season, as directed by our beloved President.

In fact, Sir, our scientists have confirmed that maize can be grown throughout the year here in Zambia and the only major adjustments that would be required to be made is to concentrate such off season agricultural activities away from areas such as Sesheke and Solwezi which are prone to frost, and to target areas where the availability of large quantities of water and electric power make irrigation easier. Indeed, we, now, live in a world of scientific endeavour, where a mere idea today may become reality tomorrow. All we need is support in form of increased funding from this House.

In the coming months, Sir, the ministry will also look at critical issues pertaining to legislation, especially legislation pertaining to the use of radiation devices, and legislation pertaining to the use or application of biotechnology and biosafety. Some of the existing legislation will, therefore, have to be reviewed to enhance implementation, to enhance institutional linkages and to optimise the use of scarce resources.

In this regard, the National Science and Technology Council will look at ways of formulating or devising a strategic plan for promoting, coordinating, monitoring, and assessing the relevance and value of current and future scientific research and development.

May I, now, make very brief references to some of the concerns raised by the various hon. Members  who have contributed to the debate on this Vote. I want to thank Hon. Mulela for his explanation of the benefits of remote-sensing technology and the sympathetic words from Hon. Sikatana. I also want to thank Hon. Lubinda and the Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr. Mwape) for their sympathetic words.

Mr Chairman, Hon. Mukwakwa felt that the functions of this ministry could easily be taken over by other ministries. In all fairness, I think that the same could be said of many other ministries because our functions after all do over-lap. I take comfort from the fact that his view was a minority one. But more seriously, I would like to say that his view seems to arise from a lack of serious realisation of the importance of science and technology in today’s world.

Sir, there is no better way of making an emphatic statement on the importance of science and technology other than by creating a ministry specifically for science and technology. If the statement by the hon. Member was simply a way of showing his disappointment with the low level of funding that my ministry received previously, then I can only remind him of the Swaka proverb which says sungo mukoshi pantu ubulungu tabwafya.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: What does that mean?

Mr Chambeshi: Mr Chairman, in English this means that in the course of time, even a dog will have its day.


Mr Chambeshi: Mr Chairman, in the interest of brevity, I will not respond to all the points that hon. Members of Parliament raised on this Vote. However, I trust that in this response, I have covered all the major areas of their concern.

In conclusion, therefore, I would like to assure the House as well as the Zambian people that in spite of some adverse events such as the threatened closure of KCM by Aglo-American Corporation, we are geared to meet the challenges of the new millennium and many of the challenges of globalisation.

Sir, my ministry and all the institutions that fall under it are determined to do their part in creating a sustainable and secure future for Zambia and for Africa, in world development.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 65/01 – (Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training – Headquarters – K28,344,118,372).

Mr Silwamba (Ndola): Mr Chairman, I seek clarification on sub-head 3, item 01, sub-item 012 –Ndola Polytechnic – K25,000,000.

Mr Chambeshi: Mr Chairman, I would like the hon. Member of Parliament to repeat his question.

The Deputy Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Mazimba): Mr Chairman, the provision is required for operational costs.

Hon. Members: For what?

Mr Mazimba: For Ndola.

Thank you, Sir.


The Chairman: Order!

Vote 65/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 65/05 – (Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training – Zambia Air Service Training Institute – K1,124,993,664).

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 5, item 02, sub-item 004 – Training Equipment – K275,000,000, may I know what is involved in this.

Mr Chambeshi: Mr Chairman, this is as it says - Training Equipment. I cannot really give a breakdown because it is quite a lot. It is more than just a few pieces of tools and equipment.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 65/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 65/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

VOTE 68/01 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Headquarters – K58,135,044,965).

Mr B. S. Chipampe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairman, thank you for allowing me this opportunity to debate on this very important Vote. Allow me, on rising for the first time, to speak in this august House, to congratulate Mr Speaker and the Deputy Speaker on your deserved re-election to your distinguished positions. Your re-election affords this House continuity with invaluable experience in guiding its affairs. This House stands to benefit greatly from your exemplary service.

Mr Chairman, allow me, further, to salute and applaud His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, State Counsel, for emerging victorious as President of the Republic of Zambia in the just ended, but heavily contested, Presidential elections through the MMD Party. He won the battle in a gallant way. Through his New Deal initiative, he has already embarked upon steering the Republic to enhance national unity and prosperity. I pledge my full support for his programmes and wish him continued good health.

Mr Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the people of Chimbamilonga and the Royal Highness in that part of the Republic for having supported and elected me as their representative to this august House. I pray to God that I will be a worthy representative and servant of the people.

Mr Chairman, no mortal individual, political party, or any other man-made institution is perfect. We and the institutions create all our behavioural flaws and imperfections. Equally, we individually all have virtues to varying degrees. It is these varying virtues that we should bring forth to common purposes to serve the people and develop the Republic. It will not do to sing forever about our imperfections albeit we should highlight, acknowledge and correct them. But, this should be done with minimum fuss. We need to match forward and eradicate poverty within the life time of our poor people who comprise better than 80 per cent of the nation’s population.

Mr Chairman, I come from an area of the Republic, which rates as the most underdeveloped and remote district in the nation. I will be failing in my duties if I did not inform this august House of the glaring deprivations in my constituency and district. I, therefore, will subsequently seek the indulgence of this august House and Government to provide the necessary assistance to eradicate these deprivations. The area is not connected to the national power grid. It has no hospital. The few existing health centres are far flung and away from population centres. It has no scheduled secondary schools. Close to half of the school-going age children have no schools to go to. Most of the schools’ structures in existence are sub-standard and are poorly furnished and equiped. Average teacher pupil ratio is 1 to 200 and is the worst in the country.

The main communication artery, the Kasama-Mporokoso-Nsumbu-Kaputa trunk road built to Class II gravel standard by Canadians some fifteen to twenty years ago, is in such a bad state that public transport operators shun it. Feeder roads are few and as good as non-existent. Subsistence farming exists but without the latest technical information packages for increased production despite the rich soils and abundant water in the district. Law and order, defence and security services , strategically essential for a district sharing a border with a civil war torn neighbouring republic to the north, and bearing the brunt and burden of indigent refugees and gun-totting foreign soldiers and rebels, are virtually absent. The international border separation of our republic and northern neighbour is undefined and remains unratified by both parliaments and keeps shifting to the disadvantage of the this republic, causing much confusion, anxiety and insecurity to the local population.

Mr Chairman, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Just read the paragraphs.


Mr B. S. Chipampe: I know you. You are my cousin.

Mr Chairman, richly endowed with natural resources, Kaputa district should be quickly developed not only to eradicate poverty among its poor population, but it should be developed quickly so that the district becomes a new contributor of wealth to other less endowed parts of the Republic.

Sir, for the Republic to fully harness the potential economic benefits available in Kaputa District, the following measures must be undertaken immediately to open up and develop the area within the budget year.


The Kasama-Mporokoso-Nsumbu-Kaputa-Chiengi Main Road artery, including all district feeder roads leading to Kampinda, Mikose, Cholwe, Kakoma, Mupandi, Mukupa-Katandula, Nkoshya and all along the two lake shore lines should be reconstructed into durable all weather tarred roads.

In addition the southern loop of the main road network, the Nsama-Mununga Road must be upgraded into an all weather tarmac road. Construction of Mukubwe River Bridge must be completed.

Mr Chairman, these are serious undertakings for which we want the best, reliable and reputable road construction firms, such as the builders of the Kapiri Mposhi-Serenje stretch of the Great North Road. The electorate and district officials must, all the time, be consulted on the selection of contractors.

Safe reliable water transport to ferry people across the inland Lake Mweru-Wa-Ntipa needs to be facilitated through construction of safe permanent harbours and initially through deployment of publicly-owned ferry boats. Nsumbu Harbour needs to be developed as the second port on Lake Tanganyika serving the western part of the province.

Air transport is essential to boost the immense tourist potential in the district centering around the two lakes and their numerous beautiful bays and beaches as well as the two major national parks, Mweru-wa-Ntipa and Nsumbu National Parks.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. S. Chipampe: Accordingly, Chocha and Kasaba Bay airfields must be upgraded to meet the potential world class tourism demands to be made upon them.

Radio and television broadcasts are very much a right of the rural population as it is of the urban population. Mr Chairman, part of the reason why we, as a nation, are poor and getting poorer …

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr R. K. Chulumanda (Luanshya): Mr Chairman, first of all, we are now aware that the mining industry has not performed to expectation. Tourism should just take up that vacuum left by the mining industry. 

Flying into Livingstone, Mr Chairman, one is greeted by a well refurbished airport. This is what we want to see elsewhere. We have seen Sun Hotels also coming up with a masterpiece. Whereas we may be busy renovating places and points of attraction, it is important also that we concentrate on the marketing aspect. Let us also not forget that to actually promote industry in terms of tourism, we need to work on key roles. There are also certain attractions that we have forgotten. For example, in the Luanshya area, there is what they call Ichilengwa na Lesa. It is somewhere near Lake Kashiba. It is important that those points are developed. It is important that we support anything to do with tourism so that we are able in the final analysis to earn foreign exchange.

Mr Chairman, we should not also forget that there is turbulence in most of our neighbouring countries and we can easily take advantage of the situation. But you do not take advantage of the situation without funds. This is where we need to concentrate and time to develop these things is now.

I thank you, sir.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): After a long time to put this quality speaker on the Floor!

Hon. Members: Aah!


Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, first and foremost, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Tourism to actually work hand in hand with the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport. We need a deliberate move to have the licenses given to bus or truck operators modifying their vehicles to suit the tourism standard so that the rural areas are easily accessible. 

I thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for recognising the Moto Moto Museum that has been given the figure of K340 million. Although this may not be enough, but this museum has more materials which are historical more than even that of Livingstone, and the process is still going on. 

Hon. Opposition Member: No.

Mr Sichilima: I can assure you, I can even take you tomorrow.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, Moto Moto Museum is still researching. There are so many historical places I can mention. Kalambo Falls, for instance, is an historical falls. There is Kaka where the British settled when they were fighting with the Germans. There is also a place where the Germans actually surrendered. It is within Mbala. There are a lot of curves which Moto Moto Museum is still digging out, and so they need a lot of money.

The other thing I want to talk about is the road network from Mbala Centre to Moto Moto Museum. That road needs to be tarred. Most of the tourists when they come to Mbala, most of them have no chance to go to Moto Moto Museum. The road to Kalambo Falls and Chisanza should be tarred. If that road was tarred, we would have an opening. …

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I had started talking about Chisanza Road. This will give us an opening to Lake Tanganyika which will mean us having another harbour. At this harbour, this is where the first ship during the world war sank called the SS Liemba - the first ship actually from the Germans sunk, and some few tourists are able to go and see it. If this road was tarred, we could have another Mpulungu trade that would probably even be more developed. 

Under tourism, we have hunting. I should quickly thank also the incumbent hon. Minister of Tourism to have actually cancelled these licenses. Most of the hunting companies, according to my knowledge, have very few Zambians who actually hunt. Now even the few ones that are there are just deprived. We will leave it up to the hon. Minister himself to see how best this can be done so that Zambians can benefit from hunting.

As regards national heritage, in Mbala, we have one of the oldest prisons that has been taken by the National Heritage. I would like to urge the hon. Minister again to quickly look at and do something about it so that people could have access to it and something written about it. This is the prison that the first President, Dr. Kenneth Kaunda and Mr Kapwepwe and a few others were actually one time locked up.

With regard to the question of forestry, Mr Chairman, I want to report to the hon. Minister in this House that the forestry has really been attacked. We seem not to have a forestry reserve. I am sure that the hon. Minister can move in quickly and arrest the situation otherwise we will not have trees. I should also take this opportunity to suggest, because we are men of suggestions, we do not just talk, that all hon. Members when we go back to our constituencies should try and plant at least 1 million trees per constituency.


Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairman, this may sound to be a joke. But some countries that are called developed, they have no mines and they have nothing to talk about on agriculture. They depend on forestry. Timber is probably second, maybe, to copper at the world market. You can sell and earn a lot of foreign exchange out of timber. The colonialists, when they were mining and at the same time were planting some of these trees as you can see as you go to the Copperbelt, but of course, not my colleagues from the Eastern Province. They have not been to the Copperbelt yet. There is forestry there called Chati and it is in miles and miles. There was a reason why they planted those trees but we seem to be cutting them and not replacing them. There is a lot of money we can get from the trees.

As regards the environment, Mr Chairman, I should also take this opportunity to 
to say something about road constructions, as we give them contracts to do these roads in our country, they dig so big trenches and they leave them open, leaving it to us and not even giving any arrangement as to who is going to burry them. I think that when we are giving them these contracts, we should actually indicate that they should do something about them. Surely, they should leave them as dams or just bury them. They should find means and ways of burying them because they are actually dangerous in some cases. Just like quarries, when we are giving licenses, there is one, for instance, here in Lusaka, Crash Stones, those quarries once they move from there, what happens next? It is that someone is trying to tap water from there to supply Lusaka.

Mr Chairman, I would urge the hon. Minister of Tourism and the hon. Minister of Environment and Natural Resources to look at some of these issues seriously.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairman, I wish to applaud and congratulate the Government for recognising the tourism sector as the most viable pillar in economic recovery process. In Livingstone, under the Budget, the Government has given Livingstone city one billion kwacha to improve access roads in Mosi-o-Tunya National Tourism Park. This will go a long way in improving tourism attractions in the area. This is a welcome development.

Furthermore, Sir, in the Budget there is K6.9 billion meant for other tourism projects within Livingstone. This will include re-organising the frontage around Victoria Falls. There is also, as part of Government’s commitment to improving tourism in the area, the Government under the Budget has given K19 billion as a grant to Livingstone City Council to develop its water and sewerage arrangements. Again, we have had problems in the past of water, tourists going without water. This is a big shot in the arm and I am sure it will improve tremendously the quality of service. 

Mr Chairman, following the recent refurbishment, it is meeting international standards. Everything has been put in place. What they are working on is just to improve the runway facility, and it will be a big airport which can take even bigger aircraft. I thank Government because this is a demonstration of strong commitment to tourism. We cannot, as a nation, develop without putting our tourism things together. Copper, right now, is going through a lot of hiccups. I also wish to thank the Government for giving K10 billion to Siavonga,  Siavonga is a major tourist center.

Mr Patel: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mpombo: They have given K10 billion and the roadwork is continuing. This money will not be diverted but it is right on the ground. There are working on the road now and I am sure it is going to pave way for a major tourism activity.

Mr Chairman, in Itezhi-tezhi, again the Government has put money under its Budget to improve the road. The road linking Itezhi-tezhi to Namwala will go a very long way to improving tourism potential.

Mr Situmbeko:  what about in Masaiti? 

Mr Mpombo: I thank you very much. In Masaiti we have natural attractions like lake Chilengwa, and, the Government is working around that area to make it more viable. But we should support this Vote. Tourism can improve if we stakeholders realize its importance. Zambia can become a major tourist destination if we send correct indictors outside. If as a nation we spend too much time on political earthquakes, quarreling, cantankerous relationships ………


Mr Mpombo: You will see that tourists will be thinking twice. So, it is important for all of us to put our hearts together so that tourism is given the right place it requires.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasoko (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairman, yes. 

The Chairman: No, thank you.

Mr Kasoko: I have not delivered.

Laughter .

   Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Chairman, I wish to thank you, once again, for giving me this opportunity to make a contribution on the Vote for the Ministry of Tourism.

   Sir, as Hon. Chulumanda stated earlier, with a decline of the mining industry, I think that tourism takes the centre stage as a major earner of foreign exchange. But it is important for us as we develop tourism to ensure that the proceeds from tourism are for the benefit of the people. I would like to observe with great regret that the development of tourism, especially along the Kafue Flats, that is to say the north banks as well as the south banks, the parts that touches Lochniva Lodge as well as Blue Lagoon, the development of tourism there, is very much negative in terms of benefits to the local population.

   Sir, I wish to point out the existence of the Wildlife Act which provides therein, that any cattle that are found grazing, along the Kafue Flats will be confiscated by the Government without compensation. Now the culture, the tradition, the well being of the people of Kafue flats, is dependent on cattle rearing. Such a law, therefore, is very devastating to the economy of the people of the Kafue Flats. 

Sir, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Tourism, to revisit this law, to revise it in such a way as to facilitate the development of Tourism in that area and also the advancement of the cattle industry. 

Sir, along side that, it is also important when we come to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, I hope that is the ministry dealing with fisheries. Similarly, the fish that is breeding in the Kafue River is meant for consumption by the people of this country and we should, therefore, not have laws which impede fishing to enable our people lead more nutritious lives. So, once again, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to look at these two laws to ensure that while we are able to promote tourism, we should also enhance the cultural and economic development of the people in those areas. 

Sir, I also wish to point out that the people in those areas get amazed at the number of people coming from Lusaka who go hunting, especially the lechwe and the zebra. They are not able to get licenses at confessional rates. Even the Chiefs in the past, I think many of us will recall a Chief who lives near the National Park, was entitled  to some kind of quota of those animals for various traditional ceremonies, but as of now, this discretion is at the will of the hon. Minister and some chiefs may not be in very good favour with the Government and so, we need to have a kind of uniform arrangement where all chiefs are entitled to some kind of ration. I am sure the hon. Minister will become very popular if he does that to all the chiefs in our areas.

Sir, ZAWA has a lot of programmes along these flats but I regret to point out that the proceeds that are raised through licences are not shared equitably with the people who live along these flats.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shepande: There was a very good example last year when a total of K194 billion was raised through wildlife. This amount has been swallowed up by the Government and it has failed to pay back to the people and this is a fact Sir, we have the figures and the people want this money this year so that they can use it to develop their schools, clinics, including the roads.

Hon. Minister, I wish to specifically state this through you, Mr Chairman, that this road that runs from Nakachenje through Nampundwe to Muchabi, Nalubanda right up to Mumbwa is the road that most of these hunters and tourists use to go to the Blue Lagoon National Park. A foreign investor who was given some lease for the development of Blue Lagoon, I believe, had a package to grade and upgrade this road. This investor has done completely nothing and we are not quite sure where he has, now, taken the money. He found Blue Lagoon Lodge nicely roofed and people used to go there for tourism, but when he arrived, he took away the roof and this year, rains have damaged the structure. Now, what type of developers (foreign investors) in tourism are we getting in this country? So, I wish to make the point that, Sir, as we receive these foreign investors, especially in tourism, we must also look at the quality of what they are able to do for this country. Otherwise, these are men and women who come to this country with a package of money from America or anywhere else who then disappear with those dollars with the people of this country benefiting nothing or very little. 

Sir, the system of licensing also is one that needs to be revisited. We have had a lot of complaints from people on how licences even for safari hunting are issued. There is  domination in the allocation of these licences by only a small clique of people who have connection with people in high offices. I think that time has come to offer these licences on an equitable basis.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Kapita (Mwinilunga West): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this Vote on Tourism. Sir, if we are serious in this country in developing tourism, then we should look at a lot of aspects in order to improve it and earn a lot of money. Our neighbours are making a lot of money because they are serious.

Let us take, for example, infrastructure. If you were in Zimbabwe, and you went to any tourist attraction, you will find that those roads are probably tarred no matter how far they are from the centre. In this country, to get to a tourist centre, it is practically impossible unless you are able to fly and how many people can do so? I think it is important to work on access roads, although I know it will not be possible in the current budget because looking at those figures I think they are negligible. There is no way we are going to tar those roads to our tourist centres.

I want to talk about the Victoria Falls. In addition to selling the falls in Zambia, a lot of other countries are selling it on behalf of Zambia, which is a shame. The money does not come to Zambia, it goes to those countries because we have been very weak in marketing the Victoria Falls.

The falls is marketed on its own. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister and I know he is capable of doing this, that in Mwinilunga, the constituency I come from, that is where the source of the Zambezi River is. We could as well market the Zambezi source if we were serious but it has not been done. We also have a lot of rapids and water falls so that if we market those as total packages together with the Victoria Falls, we will be earning a lot of money not only at the Victoria Falls but also in Mwinilunga. I am not saying this because it is where I come from …

Mr Sibetta: It is all right, talk about it.

Mr Kapita: Thank you, Hon. Sibetta. 

I would like to touch on hunting safaris. A lot has been said about hunting safaris but I do not want to belabour the point but suffice to say that many Zambians do not know that if a lion is sold, it is probably sold at about $20,000 to $30,000 abroad and in Zambia, we hear figures of something like $2,000. That money is not declared here and we are saying, hon. Minister, you can work out a way of ensuring that these people who claim that they are going to sell our lions, buffaloes abroad for K2000 and then they sell them for $20000 or $30000 are made to account. 

There is talk that it is impossible to make them account for those monies but when these professional hunters come here, they get permission to come in through the Immigration Department and they come with their guns. So, the police would issue them with permits, which is easy for them to find out who has come in with which gun. The Zambia Revenue Authority also helps to clear those guns when they are brought in here. It is amazing. At the end of the year, when you look at the list of safari hunters in Zambia, they will also say they have made a loss and yet they do not vaccinate, feed or dip the animals, but they say they have made a loss consistently, year after year. I think there is a way we can make them account for that money unless there is someone interested in ensuring that the money is not accounted for.

I would urge the hon. Minister who is my friend to ensure that this is stopped and ensure that Zambia benefits from this money. Somebody has already alluded to the fact that the locals do not benefit. Instead of just declaring $2,000 to the Zambian Government for one lion, we must declare that it was $40,000. I think the locals will also start benefiting and I know it is up to the hon. Minister to work out the modus operandi on how that money can benefit the local community.

Mr Sibetta: Ask him for biltong!


Mr Kapita: It is also stated that in most cases and maybe, you can say that it is entrepreneurship, a few individuals, Sir, run these safari companies. I do not know why that is so. As you said, it could be entrepreneurs, but  it is amazing that out of a list of twelve safaris, there would, probably, be just three people sharing four to six companies. I think it is important that we distribute these companies equitably to the local Zambians as well so that they can benefit.

Mr Chairman, I want to talk about tourism marketing though I touched on it earlier. I will give an example. When South Africans are marketing their country, they are even able to put a budget to hire taxis in the United States of America, which depict their flag and those taxis will show that their national parks have animals which people can go and see. We can market our country too. This requires professional marketing. Unfortunately, it is something that, I think, we have turned a blind eye to. Why? You find even our own economic attachés who should be selling Zambia do not even touch on marketing of Zambia. 

Mr Chairman, we also have tourism officers who are sitting comfortably in places like New York, London and Johannesburg supposedly marketing Zambia. I have not seen the results. I have an interest in tourism because I have really looked at the subject and have travelled widely. Zambia is the only country that does not sell its tourism potential. Yet we have countries like Kenya, which say, ‘Visit the Victoria Falls’ and then tourists visit Kenya then they are flown to Zambia and taken back to Kenya. We do not benefit in a large way. 

Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to look at this. Maybe, ZAWA and the Zambia Tourist Board can be given autonomy to help market this country without interference. All they need is direction from the ministry, but I think a lot of direction may ruin our chances of attracting a lot of investors and, indeed, tourists to this country. They should be given ample time and leverage to be able to work out marketing strategies to market this country. We would benefit in that way.

The hon. Member talked about this country earning money, now, in tourism instead of mining. Maybe, it is because we have ignored the fact that this is a specialised subject, yet we have qualified young men and women in marketing in this country who could be appointed to those offices in South Africa, America and England or wherever in Europe to market this country yet when you look at the qualifications of those people who market this country, a lot leaves much to be desired. Mr Chairman, I would like to implore the hon. Minister to put in measures to ensure that qualified people, especially in marketing, go and market Zambia. We would be serving mother Zambia.

The important thing is that if institutions like ZAWA are autonomous, I think, they would make a positive contribution to this country in terms of tourism.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, the tourism sector has been described as a key economic sector for many, many years and successive Governments that have come to office have stated the same and I recall the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning considering that the tourism sector is also an economic sector. However, this particular sector has been riddled with mismanagement starting from the top.

I will give you a good example, Mr Chairman. In August, 2000, the tenders were flouted for safari hunting licences and they were subsequently cancelled by the then President, Mr Chiluba. In that year, there were three Ministers of Tourism and the reason was that they were allegedly implicated in the issuance of licences, particularly, the safari hunting licences.

As if that was not enough, your Honour, this year the hon. Minister’s decision has been taken to court, as we are aware. So, we cannot discuss it in the House as it is sub-judice. Suffice to say that the court found it inadequate and stayed the decision of the hon. Minister and we have to ask why it is that every year we have one problem and the problem emanates from the issuance of safari hunting licences and special licences. The history of this sector, particularly on the wild life management is that we have had so many problems and that is how ZAWA was conceptualised.  Donor funding was stopped, over US $70 million. I am sure the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, at any time will have people knocking from our so-called co-operating partners with regard to this sector. This money, again, will be withheld until there is a resolution of how it can be best managed. It was found in the good wisdom of the MMD Government last time that the only way to deal with it was to have an independent body called ZAWA. It was created, but it took two years to appoint its Director-General, again, because of gross interference by politicians in the appointment of the Chief Executive of ZAWA. Like I said, we have come back to the full circle, all over again.

This business of safari hunting, I am told, is a seasonal business. People do not just come here every day, wake up and say, we need a concession, we need to go out hunting. This matter was sent to the Tender Board for the sake of transparency and accountability. My comments today will be very brief because I am unable to discuss this matter, as I said, because it has been taken to court. But it is enough for the Front Bench to know, your Honour, that the decision of your hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has been questioned. You may want to look into it.

The remarks the hon. Minister made on Saturday, 16th March, 2002, about the current hunting safari operators who do not declare their assets here and they take their money off shore, surely, can be dealt with by Zambia Revenue Authority. It is part of a contractual arrangement. If there is money-laundering going on on a contract that is given by our Government, I am sure, it can be dealt with. So, let me simply say the only way I can describe the remarks of the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources on March 16th, on Saturday morning at 1000 hours, is that it was so important that it had to be held at 1000 hours on Saturday. Winston Churchill would have said, in parliamentary language, that his remarks can best be described as terminological inexactitude.

Thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mumba): Mr Chairman and hon. Members of the House, let me begin by thanking all the hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to the debate. Given the importance of the natural resources to all the people of Zambia, I fully understand the interest that the debate on my ministry has generated in this august House. I wish, therefore, right from the beginning, to assure this House that my ministry will carefully take into consideration all the views raised during the debate in order to see the way these can help improve the manner in which we run the ministry.

Sir, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources created after the merger of the two former ministries has taken over all the previous functions previously undertaken separately by the two ministries. The mission of my ministry is to provide a policy framework, monitor, evaluate and co-ordinate its implementation to ensure protection of the environment and sustainable development, management and utilisation of natural resources for the benefit of the present and future generations.

The strategic objectives to support the mission of the ministry have previously been indicated to this House. But let me emphasise that they include to:

1.    formulate appropriate and existing legal frameworks on tourism development, diversification, environmental natural resources management to sustainable social economic development;

2.    effectively co-ordinate monitor and evaluate the implementation of tourism, environmental and natural resources policies and registration in order to ensure compliance and attainment of policy objectives

3.    facilitate and promote research and development in tourism, environment and natural resources, natural heritage in order to increase knowledge and its utilisation.

4.    promote investment in tourism, environment and natural resources in order to contribute to employment creation, poverty alleviation and the supply of role materials. 

5.    facilitate the rehabilitation of existing and construction of new tourism infrastructure in order to promote tourism development.

Mr Chairman, in order to achieve the above stated statement and strategic objectives, the ministry will undertake a number of activities in the area of revenue generation, environment, forestry and tourism. In the area of revenue generation, the ministry will increase revenue generation from the forestry, wildlife, and tourism and environment sectors in order to contribute the national treasury as well as to facilitate the implementations of the ministry programmes and activities.

Sir, we intend to increase the participation of the Zambian citizens, in particular, local communities in the ministry's activities that are of a commercial nature to at least, 30 per cent by the end of our first three years. This will not only empower the Zambians, but will significantly contribute to the broadening of the tax base from forestry, wildlife and tourism activities such as domestic tourism encompassing Heritage museums.

The above will be achieved by promoting community-based natural resource management programmes in wildlife, forestry as a strategy for empowering the local communities in the management of their natural resources. At the same time, the ministry will support targeted international involvement in the management of tourism and natural resources by giving incentives to those organisations and or individuals that show evidence of having built the capacity of Zambians in their areas of operations.

Mr Chairman, we have acknowledged that tourism is an important sector as we embark on the diversification process from the mining industry. We are convinced that tourism can trigger economic growth and reduce poverty. Like in a dance, one must recognise the various steps. In our case, before national programmes targeted at attracting foreign investment are undertaken, it will be important for us to develop a marketing strategy for the sector, building on what we know and borrowing the best experiences that have worked elsewhere. 

Sir, if we are not able to market our resources, then investment will not come and the current investment is undoubtedly going to suffer for lack of capital. Thus, our strategy is centred on three important prereliquites which are- marketing, marketing and marketing as a starting point.

In this respect, Mr Chairman, we can only ask and emphasise and in this respect, we can only ask for the need for total commitment from all stakeholders. These will include no fewer than seven line ministries whose action impacts greatly on the development of sustainable tourism. This is addition to the support from the private sector.

Sir, I plan to write a comprehensive letter within the next few days to my colleagues at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. This is the ministry with existing structures to effectively market Zambia’s tourism resources. In my discussions with the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, I intend to suggest that missions be given targets to facilitate a certain number of tourists from host countries to visit Zambia in a given year. This will undoubtedly imply that every mission be adequately supplied with information on tourist destinations. For their part, the missions will be expected to report on tourism marketing and other marketing activities in their countries of accreditation from time to time. It is our firm belief that once this becomes an entrenched practice, a lot of changes can be expected.

The missions' income, too, will also increase through visas as a consequence thereof. This way, the investors will be attracted to invest in this sector, as the potential will become noticeable.

The Government will also take deliberate steps to encourage local investment into the tourism sector. It is without doubt that the problem faced by our people in entering this industry is that of financing. To this end the Government’s proposed tourism development credit facility aimed at promoting and assisting indigeneous entrepreneurs participation in tourism cannot be over-emphasised.

A number of our co-operating partners have also shown keen interest and will thus be approached to be brought on board to set up the said credit facility. In addition, the Government is considering the introduction of the tourism levy of around 2 per cent the modalities of which remain a subject of active discussion. 

Whilst I am still on this point, I wish to inform the House that it was because of the need to enhance the contribution of the tourism sector to the socio-eonomic development of this country that I announced the cancellation of the 2001/2002 tenders for Safari hunting concessions that were recently advertised. I am somewhat constrained from having to share with the House in far greater detail the underlying reasons and details which moved my ministry to take the action that we have taken given the fact that the matter is sub judice.

Mr Chairman, the local communities have powers to negotiate co-management agreements with the Zambia Wildlife Authority on the one hand, and the hunting outfitters and photographic tour operators, on the other hand. It is, therefore, disheartening to note that these provisions of the law have never been brought to bear by deliberately allowing this lucrative business to only benefit a few. Not only does the majority of the Safari Companies fail to comply with expectations in their dealings with the Government, but they have also failed to fulfill their own obligations with the communities at large. Allow me, therefore, Mr Chairman, to assure the nation through this august House that Safari Hunting is on this season. 

Mr Chairman, allow me also to go further in reporting the activities that my ministry wishes to undertake this time in the Environment Sector. We intend to undertake the development of a National Environmental Policy that will provide a framework of contributing to the achievement of sustainable development through the protection of the environment and management of natural resources and to continue the enforcement of regulations on the control of water and air pollution, waste management, handling and use of toxic substances.

Mr Chairman, in view of inadequate financial, human and material resources facing the nation, my ministry will continue working with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to ensure that the little available resources are used judiciously. In the same vein, let me take this opportunity to thank the international community for the assistance that has been rendered in my sector throughout this period. We are greatly indebted to them and look forward to their continued support.

I wish to make a brief statement regarding the state of our forests and the utilisation of the forest products in general. As hon. Members are aware, the entry point in this industry is through the obtainance of Hewers License. 

Given the prevailing prices for timber in, say, the Republic of South Africa, it is evident that the nation has not yet begun to reap benefits from current extensive exploitation of timber products by both the small scale and large scale businesses in this industry. My ministry will take steps to review the existing price structure and industry practices in order to correct the situation.

Mr Chairman, guided by our conviction that sustainable utilisation of the natural resources is centred on participation and empowerment of the local communities, I intend to come to this House in order to strengthen hands in the manner in which we can sit to correct the imbalance created over many years. Our own people to whom we have a responsibility need maximum encouragement in this industry.

Before I end my speech, Mr Chairman, let me call upon all hon. Members of Parliament who help my ministry by encouraging their people to work hand in hand with my ministry. There is no doubt that the subject matter under my ministry is very close to the hearts of so many of us in the Chamber. These are matters which are close to the hearts of those we represent.

It is now my turn to make brief reference to the comments that the debate has generated. Seven Members of Parliament contributed to the debate of the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. I wish to generally thank all those Members who have taken their places in order to make contributions to this debate.

Hon. Chipampe, opened the debate, I am sure that he will be satisfied by my thanks given that, his was a Maiden Speech.

Hon. Chulumanda made very useful comments and I am very grateful that he recognised the importance of tourism. He also stated, as I have done, that we must concentrate on marketing.

Hon. Sichilima urged me to work hand in hand with my honourable colleague responsible for Communications and Transport in order to access rural areas. He also asked for more funding for Moto Moto Museum. This is obviously close to my heart. He advocated investment in the second road to Lake Tanganyika. I welcome the suggestion and I am sure that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is present and seated.

I wish to thank the hon. Deputy Minister for Southern Province for highlighting the many achievements MMD has scored and the various projects which I believe are to the satisfaction of our honourable and learned colleague, Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, Member of Parliament for Livingstone.

Hon. Shepande raised important matters concerning possible conflicts within the legislative framework. It is my intention, at some stage, to come to the House to seek the support of the House, in order to rationalise this.

Hon. Kapita, who wanted everybody to know he is a friend, agreed with the rest of the speakers when he said that our neighbours were making more money than we do. It is a fact, Zimbabwe is able to make more than twenty million dollars in one season, whereas Zambia is unable to score even five million dollars, suggesting that there must be several leakages along the way.

I have taken note of the comments raised by Hon. Dipak Patel but regrettably, he was not able to declare interest. It is not therefore in my interest to dwell on most of what he said.

Mr Chairman, hon. Members I wish to thank you for your attention.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K317,855,671,797).

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote.

Defence and security of any country is very important. Normally issues of defence and security are very contentious in a young democracy like ours. Mr Chairman, it is important as Members of Parliament to first and foremost understand where we are coming from as a country. UNIP fought for independence, they ruled us and, of course, the defence and security kept us in peace. 

Sir, we politicians sometimes tend to turn a blind eye to the fact that we have been enjoying relative peace since independence. We are usually carried aware by publicity. We even tend to forget that all the countries, including America, the biggest democracy, Britain, Australia and Japan have strong intelligence organizations. These organisations help enhance peace and security in these countries.

Mr Chairman, Zambia is not an island. In our case, we are surrounded by a number of countries, some of them are at war. As a result, some parts of our country like Western, North-Western, Luapula and parts of Northern provinces are so much threatened by the spill-over of the fighting in our neighbouring countries.

Mr Chairman, as I am speaking now we have our defence forces along the borders. Others are also in other foreign countries trying to maintain law and order under the UN auspices. It is with this background that I urge all Members of this august House to reflect upon the importance of defence and security. It is the practice the world over that Parliamentarians, even in the United States, do not conduct public audits on the defence and security budgets. 

Even in Africa and all the Commonwealth countries, that is the practice. You can bear with us as a New Deal Government, we are so concerned that we are geared not to repeat the mistakes of the past, if there were any. We will make sure that the foundation with which we have started in regard to fighting corruption at all levels whether in the defence and security forces is maintained. We will try to make sure that we do not disappoint the Zambian people, including the Opposition who I am sure are going to support the Estimates of Expenditure for the defence and security forces.

Mr Chairman, it is unfortunate that matters of security nature, which are supposed to be brought before the Executive through the normal channel by hon. Members, end up appearing in newspapers. When peace is lost in this country, all of us are going to be affected. May be some of our colleagues are happy because they have another country where they can go to. As for me, this is my only country and I would urge my fellow Parliamentarians to actually reflect seriously on issues of defence and security. These are matters that we should leave
 to the Executive to handle and find time to discuss with them, instead of actually washing dirty linen in public.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs R. C. Banda (Milanzi): Mr. Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Vote.

Mr Chairman, I would like to start by discussing the administration of the Army. Sir, the administration of the Army is very important and I know for sure that once upon a time, when the Army personnel went for operations, they used to carry tinned foodstuffs and other foodstuffs which is not the case at the moment. I would like to remind the hon. Minister that the question of foodstuffs when personnel go on operations is very important, indeed.

Mr Chairman, I would also like to talk about the development of the Army. Sir, the development of the Army is not a sudden situation, it  is the situation where we need past experience to build for the future. I have seen that when there is a new Government, they also change the Army personnel. I have also noticed that when the Army command changes, even the uniforms change.

Mr Chairman, I would like to say that when we look at the issues of the Army, we should be objective. It is not necessary to change uniforms but to address the problem of food and other areas, which are important. When they change personnel, those who take over should not think that their friends were wrong, it is just the practice which has been taking place. I would like to say that the retired army personnel and those still in service should co-ordinate so that there is continuity with a bit of change. As it is now, the situation is pathetic and as I said earlier, when I talk of Army commanders, I even go down to brigade commanders.

Mr Chairman, if you look at the retired Army commanders, you will see that they do not look like what they should look like, they just look like anybody else. If you investigate, hon. Minister, you will discover that our retired officers are not well treated like those in neighbouring countries or, indeed, in the commonwealth as a whole. I would like to remind those still in service that what their retired friends are going through will apply to them when they retire. It is not good and it must be addressed.

These people who have left employment are aware that the Defence Forces deal with businessmen. Instead of accommodating some of the friends you worked with, you accommodate people who have no idea of the Defense Forces, leaving them out. I think it is important to be kind to your friends, especially those who served this country with dedication. Some of these soldiers had served in the wars in Mozambique, Angola, Rhodesia, South Africa and Namibia. 

Mr Chairman, we need to reflect back. We would not have been where we are now if these soldiers were not doing their work. Other parts of the world, have not enjoyed peace like Zambia has done since 1964. This must be appreciated and to do this, we must look at the past as we go forward.

Hon. Government Member: Declare your interest.

Mrs R. C.  Banda: Some people are shouting that I should declare my interest. I cannot declare my interest. It is just that I have got knowledge of what is going on.

Mr Chairman, I have an example of our first Army Commander in this country, who took over from the British. Follow him and see where he is living and how he has faired. It is very sad. You can imagine if the first Army Commander can now receive pension of K13,000 per month. What do you expect?

Sir, when one is working, you would tend to think that when you are out of employment you would be same. No, it is not possible. That is why it is important that you upgrade their pensions to the levels according to your ranks and not just living them in the cold. This is what I would like the hon. Minister to address.

Hon. Government Member: We will look after him!

Mrs R. C.  Banda: Yes, if you look after him, you have looked after everybody. That would be alright.


Mrs R. C.  Banda: On the accommodation part of it, there is a tradition in the Army that everybody who is a soldier lives in the barracks. This idea of scattering soldiers in compounds and everywhere, I think is not safe. In fact, it does not even breed any discipline. Sometimes when I am driving, I give lifts to soldiers who are stranded on roads from all directions. This is not good. This country must think of spending money on this section of the community. It is very important. We are relaxing because we have always been at peace. We have even forgotten that the same soldiers fought in these countries I have mentioned.

So, let us make sure that these soldiers maintain the morale. Let them have the dignity that they have had through and through. They have the discipline. If the administration is falling short of what they may do, I am sure that those who have retired may not need money to give them their advice. It is very important. 

Mr Chairman, can someone work out a mechanism that if the houses are not enough in barracks, some more houses should be built or some compound be created where soldiers will live. It is very dangerous to keep soldiers everywhere. That is why we have armed robbers in military uniforms. We do not even know where they get these uniforms from but please, reflect on that.

Sir, the job of soldiers is to die. That is the only job they do. Life has no price. So, their job is just to die if there is war. So, let us try to look after them during and after they have retired.

I thank you, Sir.

Major-General Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Chairman, I do not want to repeat what Hon. Banda has said. I just want to say what she has not talked about.

Sir, when we talk about men and women in uniform, we are talking about the Zambia Army, the Air Force and indeed, the Zambia National Service. I agree with my colleague that these men and women work extremely hard, day and night. Most of them, at many times, are found in operations areas. They have defended this country its properties with dedication. Therefore, it is extremely important that the Government looks into the affairs of the Army, Air Force and the National Service. Mr Chairman, when you look at their salaries, they are very low. So, it is important that the Government looks into this situation. 

Sir, I also emphasise on the accommodation of the Army, Air Force and the Zambia National Service.

Let me now touch on the Zambia National Service where my colleague has not touched. I want to repeat that our Government bought a lot of equipment for the Zambia National Service. This equipment can be used in various projects throughout Zambia. The Zambia National Service is capable of constructing roads. All these feeder roads we are talking about here can be done by the Zambia National Service because they have qualified manpower. They have engineers and they have done that before and they can do it.

So, I want to appeal to the Government to give some of these contracts to the Zambia National Service than giving them to briefcase businessmen. When these contracts are given to the briefcase businessmen, they go to Zambia National Service to hire the equipment. Why give them contracts when they have got no equipment at all?

Mr Chairman, it is extremely important to look at the Zambia National Service as our own baby. Therefore, we should take care of our baby. We have the Builders’ Brigade and the National Service. It is the baby of our Government. It is important that we look after them. Let us give them these projects. The roads like Lundazi/Chitungulu Road, Lundazi/Mwanya Road, can be done by the Zambian National Service. Let us not forget about our baby but look after it.

Mr Chairman, Zambia National Service is one of the institutions which should be regarded as an important institution in this country. The Zambia National Service has got farms everywhere in all provinces in Zambia. They can produce maize and all kinds of food but the Government is not taking care of them. At the moment, they cannot do it because they have not got tractors. They have not funds to buy tractors.

I, therefore, urge the Government to give them tractors. Mr Chairman, we should support these people. They can do wonders for this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major-General Zulu: They are able to produce about 200,000 bags of maize. They can do it in a year. That can help our country to reduce hunger. They cannot do it, now, because they have no tractors at all. I am appealling to the Government …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Is it in order for the hon. Member on the Floor to keep on changing his voice like a woman and, sometimes, speaking like a man?


The Chairman: Will the hon. Member on the Floor, please, continue.

Major-General Zulu: Mr Chairman, I will see him outside.


Major-General Zulu: Mr Chairman, I am emphasising on the Zambia National Service because I can see them doing wonders for everybody in the nation if only we can take care of them and support them. I feel very strongly that they cannot let the nation down if only all of us work together.

Mr Chairman, with regard to salaries for the Zambia Army, Zambia Airforce and the Zambia National Service, they are very low. Some of them have worked extremely hard. Some of them have been in the defence force for almost twenty seven years, but they get nothing at the end of the year. For example, I, Major-General Dickson Simon Nkuluta Zulu, …


Major-General Zulu: …worked for the defence forces for almost twenty-seven years with dedication. But when I retired, I went home with K6 million.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame! Chiluba’s Government.

Major-General Zulu: That is the fact and I am telling you the truth. The records are there at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Zambia National Service Headquarters. I concur with my colleague that the Government should look into the serving members of the defence forces and those who have retired. Some of them, at the moment, get as little as K15,000 as monthly pension. That is really nothing. Let us look after defence forces properly. In other countries, they are looking after them very well. Some of these people died during the struggle for independence for this country, South Africa, Angola, Namibia, Zimbabwe and some of them lost their legs, arms and eyes, but they get …

The Chairman: The hon. Member’s time has expired.


Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to speak. I am a proponent of international obligations on the part of Zambia but not at the expense of national interest at home. 

Sir, I have noted that a number of Zambians in the border areas like the Western and Luapula provinces have been made internal refugees because the Government is providing for other nationals. We have noted, with dismay, that our Government has taken particular interests in providing for international obligations at the expense of our residents in the border areas.

Mr Chairman, the situation that is obtaining in areas like Mongu, Zambezi and Luapula Province is saddening. Our people have been displaced by foreign armies. These people have not been receiving adequate assistance from the Government. But this Government has been providing for external refugees at the expense of Zambians. I implore the Government of the Republic of Zambia to ensure that their obligation on the part of the citizens of this country are taken care of.

Mr Chairman, we have read in the newspapers and we have heard on the Floor of this House that people in Zambezi and Kalabo have had their lives disturbed due to the influx of refugees from other countries as a result of incursions from foreign armies. The Government of this country has not provided adequate security for this country, but we are able to send contingents of the Zambia Army and Police Force to foreign countries to protect foreign citizens.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairman, it is an obligation of every Government to protect the life and interests of its own people. I implore the Government, Sir, to take particular interest to protect the lives of our people. If we do not have adequate resources, there is no need for us to be populists. We must protect our people. I implore this House to ensure that we provide for our people in Western and Luapula provinces. Our people have suffered enough. They are unable to send their children to school because their lives have been disturbed due to the wars in our neighbouring countries. It does not pay, Sir, to protect the interests of other nationals at the expense of our citizens.

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Mr Chairman, in supporting this Vote, I would like to put it on record that all the men and women in the defence force, which ever wing they are, do provide a service that, indeed, is necessary for our country. It is for that reason that I would urge the hon. Minister of Defence to treat the men and women in all the wings of Government equitably as we heard from some quarters. I have imported it from my brother, Hon. Manjata, who is not here unfortunately.

Mr Chairman, the point I am raising is that whether you are in the Zambia National Service wing of the defence force, Zambia Army or Zambia Air Force, you are a man or woman in uniform. I think it is important to treat and give them equal privileges because it is like in a house when you have children. They can never be equal, but you try your best to be fair.

I am raising this issue because I am a Member of Parliament for Munali and I am aware that some members of the defence force were given houses to buy. Some of these officers who live within the precinct of Avondale were told that those units were institutional houses. I think it is important that we do recognise that these men do receive equal training. They may receive differential salaries, but I think that it is important that as employers, we treat them with fairness. I do hope that the hon. Minister of Defence will look at those few people in Avondale with a little bit of favour and help them. I do not see that you can treat those units in Avondale as institutional housing. We do not want to live with the defence forces in the compounds. I think you can try to help them move from places like Avondale and build them houses, as my sister said in her speech, in designated areas.

While campaigning in Kalikiliki and Kamanga, we did come across a lot of officers there. And as we were discussing, we posed the question to some of the members. What would happen, for example, if an officer heard that one part of our city was attacked and we are aware that the armory is in some area? Are we confident that these young men and women will actually run for their uniform and fall in to pick up their guns? Simple human nature requires that you take cover and I am pretty sure that the young men and women who are living with us in Kalikiliki would also take cover and run away, for their lives. So …

Mr Mulenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, is Hon. Nawakwi in order to doubt the integrity and bravery of our men and women in uniform?


The Chairman: Will the hon. Member for Munali continue, please.

Miss Nawakwi: The hon. Minister of Education should know that I passed my Grade 12 with a distinction. The point I am raising is real. When there is danger, human nature requires that you take cover and the reason that officers are kept in one place is to gather moral strength from one another so that when the commander says fall in, they run for their armory. The question that the hon. Minister of Education needs to educate me on is. how long will it take an officer from Kalikiliki to run to Arakan Barracks knowing very well that there is State House, Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation and the robots in between and there is no transport at night? 

Mr Chairman, I am scared and worried for my life. I need to be given a cushion of security and comfort so that I am aware that I am being protected. All the men who guard our infantry brigade are living in compounds and those are the front soldiers. It is only the officers who are in designated areas either on Independence Avenue or in the barracks. The real men with the rifle are in compounds, and for me it really worries me. It is for that reason that I keep on begging the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that we do not need to start with 100 houses. We can start with even 20 houses. At least, our people will know that something is being done. That is the point I was raising and it is very important. This is the only country in the Commonwealth where the military, the army, the police live in compounds.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: It should not make the hon. Minister of Education proud because he is educating officers and these officers must go with pride. In Kalikiliki, we do not have toilets and running water and I think that these men and women are employed in the service of the Government, and so they must be provided with service. I think that it is very important.

Secondly, as was said, the Zambian National Service is a critical component of our quest for development and food security in this country. I would like to invite the hon. Minister of Defence to visit Egypt. The strategic food reserve of the Egyptian Government is held under the custody of the National Service. It is for that reason that they have equipment but if you look at what is being provided, because of lack of foresight, money for maintenance of equipment under Zambia National Service has not been provided. May I make a suggestion. The Zambia National Service has equipment that it is earning money on. The accounting procedures of sending money to the Central Treasury and sending it back is what causes and brings about obsolete equipment. I hope and trust that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will allow ZNS to hold a revolving fund for the equipment. You see, people say that Hon. Nawakwi talks but I think, sometimes, I feel very proud. I have got good ideas. The idea of equipping ZNS is a noble idea that the hon. Minister of Education must congratulate me on. It was well thought through. We need to employ them in making dams. Move them, now, to Southern Province. Zimbabwe has a dam every 10 kilometres. Now, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development does not even have money for bowsers and yet the equipment is lying here idle. We need …

Mr Lembalemba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Ikala iwe Kaunda.


Miss Nawakwi: I am supporting the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development. What I am saying is that if you compare our life in Zambia and just cross the Zambezi River, you will find that in Zimbabwe, every 10 kilometres, there is a dam. I was Minister of Energy and Water Development and whenever you look at the impact of drought, we were most affected all the time. That is why when I had the opportunity to think about which division in the defence force should be equipped, I thought ZNS was the right place to equip. Our army is not at war. We have civil engineers in the defence force, ZAF, ZNS and the regular army. Please, get them to work because they are at peace.

Lastly, hon. Minister of Defence, I do hope that this session, w shall be able to see the morale of our officers being raised because the officers feel good when they see their Commander-in-Chief in uniform visiting them in the barracks. But for ten years, these officers never saw their Commander-in Chief in uniform. And also they were never sent to do exercises. When I was young at University of Zambia, we always heard noises of soldiers in action somewhere but, now, you do not know where our people do exercises. You know, these men are not at war. They feel good when they just go and bomb a hill and go back to the barracks and then their Commander-in-Chief goes around saying well done young men, in uniform. Please, help us. We need to raise the morale of our officers. Hon. Minister of Defence, I think that we support you but also as I was saying, equity is important. If Office of the President has raised the salaries by 100 per cent, why not ZNS, the army, and why not Zambia Air Force?

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to support this Vote.

Mr Chairman, defence and security are expensive. In fact, defence and security of a nation is priceless. We may allocate some figures and even say enough has been allocated or even feel they have been given too much. In the present case, I think, what they have been given may not even be enough. If Zambia was to be invaded, and lives are lost and our people are killed, then we have lost everything. There is nothing there to defend. So, it is important that our borders are defended. I wish here to salute our men and women in uniform who have laboured under very difficult conditions and often with very limited resources and supplies yet have gone out to our borders to keep our borders secured.

It is true that some invaders, terrorists, fighters or whatever they are called  from some countries, neighbouring countries, have come into our country and rained havoc on our people. But, as much as they can, our defence personnel have been there and they have tried. Their job has not only been to defend, but when we had disasters, they also came in to assist. It is important t that we continue to support the Zambia Defence Forces - the Zambia Army, the Zambia National Service, the Zambia Air force and other security forces including the Police so that peace and security in the country is maintained.

Sir, I do realise that the amount of funds allocated to them may not be adequate. Defence costs a lot of money. But I wish to commend the Minister of Defence and the Minister of Finance and National Planning, because when I look at the Yellow Book, I see that on page 266, personal emoluments have been increased from K28 Billion to K108 Billion. This is more than three times. This is a very important decision with an important allocation. I have also noted when you look at the entire Budget, the total Budget, Hon Situmbeko, if you can listen. When you look at the total Budget, you will see that on page 273 of the Yellow Book, the total budget has been increased from K214 Billion last year, to K317 billion. Now, this is commendable and the Government is doing very well. I know that defence needs even more resources than this. But, I think we are moving in the right direction. 

Sir, my colleagues in this House suffer from what I can just call deliberate amnesia. Some of my colleagues who have been speaking in this House have served in portfolios where they were looking at the resources of the country and allocating funds.

Hon Members: Hear, hear! 

Dr Machungwa: And they never allocated what is being allocated here. The percentage has increased. So, it is wrong for my colleagues to come and condemn conditions that our defence people have been living under because when they were there, they did not do much.

Mr Hachipuka interjected  

Dr Machungwa: Can you just listen. So, please, let us be truthful.

The Chairman: Order!

Dr Machungwa: We shall respect your debate here if you are factual, but the moment you change party or position, you even change your song, you will not be very convincing.

Mr Chairman, international experience for our troops is very important. We are part of the global world. We are part of the system in which what is happening in one country affects what is happening in other countries. It is very important for our security forces including the defence forces to give some service to our brothers and sisters in other countries. We are not saying that if we send our men and women to other countries, we have left our borders bare, some personnel remain to guard the areas. In fact, hon Members may wish to know that when we do send our forces to serve on international peace-keeping missions, the bulk of the costs and expenses are paid by for by the United Nations system. We do not meet those costs. And in any case, our service men do benefit financially. That is experience that they get from there and get some good remuneration which helps them.

So, Sir, we salute our people, let them continue…


The Chairman: Order! Peace is the brainchild of justice. The essence of debate is to speak on what is at the back of your mind. To speak what you feel is not in order. Now, the other people who are the recipients of your message might not take kindly to your message. And when it is your turn, just enjoy pain without flinching. That is the essence of debate. And if you want peace, then you have to be fair to everybody. Minus justice, there is no peace at all. Now, leave him alone, let him debate.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

The Chairman: Will you, please, continue.

Dr Machungwa: Thank you very much, Sir. Most of the time we sit here and listen to colleagues debate and I think it is good, but they should know that it is also equally good for others also to debate.

Mr Situmbeko interjected.

Dr Machungwa: I am debating, I have the Floor. Please, Hon Sikota, just wait until it is your turn. So, Mr Chairman, the point I was making, as I come to conclude my very short intervention, is that security is important and the Government is on the right track because when you look at the figures, when you look at what was there last year, and what is there now the figures speak for themselves and I fully and wholeheartedly support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota: Thank you very much, Sir. I rise to support this Vote because I believe men in uniform have long been neglected and really need to be looked after. 

Sir, I believe that the first step that should be done is to recognise that there are a lot of ex-servicemen who have not received their dues and expedite payment to them. I think that is extremely important because it even touches upon the security of the country. We have seen what has happened in neighbouring countries where former combatants or ex-servicemen have been neglected. They have tended to engage in certain anti-social behaviour and activities, if I may say so, which are a bit disruptive to the general community. Hence, why they should be treated as a special group in terms of their dues. 

Sir, the other thing which I noted from the Yellow Book is that there is no recognition that this is a high risk group of people in terms of AIDS. It is a known fact that all over the country, there are defense forces and men in uniforms are susceptible to contracting HIV/AIDS at a much higher rate than the normal people in society. And to my surprise where as, with other ministries, there is sufficient provision or at least some provision made for HIV/AIDS awareness, these categories of people seem to have been neglected. I think that is something that should be addressed. 

Mr Chairman, I also feel that the ZNS should be advised to spread its wings all over Zambia. At the moment, in Livingstone, we do not have the benefit that other areas have of having close to them these graders and earth moving equipment, which are very useful in terms of road rehabilitation. Livingstone has got very bad feeder roads and we do no have access to these equipment. 

Mr Chairman, the next thing I would like to find out is whether or not there is going to be financial discipline in the Ministry of Defence. I understand from an earlier contribution by the Minister of Finance and National Planning that some of their expenses have been channeled through the OP (Office of the President) account.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours. 

The Chairman: When business was suspended, Hon. Sikota was then speaking. 

Will he, please, continue.

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, I was stating that I hope that is going to be some kind of accountability in the Ministry of Defence and that when they do purchases or send supplies to our troops somewhere that these monies will go through the Ministry of Defence account as of opposed to the office of the President account. We already have on record the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning stating that K7.5 billion was withdrawn in cash to give to the Ministry of Defence for troops at the border and that US $763,000 similarly was taken which was sitting in the Office of the President account. I think this is wrong in that anything for the Ministry of Defence should be in the Ministry of Defence account.

On the explanation of the K7.5 billion which was taken out in cash between August and December last year, I also wish to state that I know that the soldiers who have been at our borders whether in North-Western or Western Provinces have all been suffering in that in adequate rations and resources have been given to them. In all of these areas, the local villagers have been complaining that in fact, they face a lot of difficulties in that they are more less forced to feed these defence personnel. So, it would appear that the K7.5 billion in cash, which was taken out from the Office of the President account in order to feed our soldiers at the border never reached them. Otherwise, they would not have been asking and harassing the locals there, the way they have been.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: I am also wondering why it was found fit that some of them should be paid in US dollars at our borders because we are told that all this money which was withdrawn went to the soldiers.

Mr Situmbeko: Bahamas!


Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that the recipients of that K7.5 billion and US $763,000 obviously did not receive those monies, I would like to get assurances from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that a public enquiry will be made to trace exactly where that K7.5 billion in cash went and the US $763,000 that was taken out of the Office of the President account.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman there is also the issue of the Gabon Disaster Report. We are about to go to the ninth anniversary of that disaster and we have the families of those who died in that disaster and the general nation still waiting to find out exactly what happened. Therefore, we would like the hon. Minister of Defence to come out with a very clear statement, one which would console the Zambian people and more especially the grieving families as to when exactly the Gabon Disaster Report will be released and why the Government continues to torture these people by hiding this report. What is it that the Government is hiding?

Mr Chairman, there is also the question of the planes that went for servicing sometime back. We have heard nothing. Are they still in Israel or they are being leased out to the Israeli Army? Why do we not have them back? Perhaps this will be the right time to let us know on that question as well.

Mr Chairman, there is also the question of the Auditor-General’s Report on the Ministry of Defence. There has been a deathly quiet on this issue from the Government. This Government has promised us time and again that there is going to be zero tolerance for corruption and it will be totally transparent. So long as the Auditor-General’s Report is not actioned on, that does not show zero tolerance for corruption, the Gabon Disaster Report is not given to us, that does show transparency and as long as we do not hear the full story about the K7.5 billion cash and the US $763,000, then this Government, from the very beginning, would have failed the test of transparency and zero tolerance for corruption.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Let this Government stop giving us all these fancy words and short changing us on deeds. It is only with the deeds that we shall see that this Government, truly, is against corruption. Otherwise, it will be the same old stories as the past Government. Sweet words and nothing else!

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up debate on this Vote. Zambia is a landlocked country whose territorial integrity can only be assured by keeping all our eight borders well secured.

In addition, we need to ensure internal security for the people of Zambia to continue to enjoy peace and tranquility. In this regard, the role of our defence forces is of paramount importance. They have a noble task to keep our enemies at bay even at the expense of their own lives. The people of Zambia have thus reposed their faith and trust in their defence forces.

Mr Chairman, I wish to place on record that in the year 2001, the defence forces played a very significant role in ensuring peace and stability through out the country particularly, in regard to the hosting of the Organisation of the African Unity (OAU) and the Presidential and General Elections.

While the country was peaceful for most part of the year, 2001, our defence forces had to deal with foreign hostilities in the North Western and Western provinces as a result of instability in a neighbouring country and due to acts of banditry in which life was lost, food stolen and cattle stolen by foreign invaders who in most cases, were captured or repelled.

In addition to keeping the home front secured, our defence forces continued to contribute to the United Nations peace-keeping activities particularly in Sierra Leone where we lost four officers in a helicopter accident and six in a bomb accident, these unfortunate accident notwithstanding, the Zambian UN peace-keeping forces are acknowledged for their professionalism and hard work and, therefore, commends the respect of the UN.

In the year 2002, the Ministry of Defence has resolved strengthen further the protection of Zambia’s territorial integrity and to guarantee the Zambian people protection against adversary. To do this effectively, the Ministry of Defence will require adequate funding in correct amounts at the correct time. Law and inadequate funding has been a major draw back on the operations of the ministry and has resulted in huge debts to landlords, food suppliers, Zesco, water suppliers and other service providers. In view of outstanding debts, the ministry is not able to enjoy any credit facility. The ministry also has difficulties in actualising capital projects due to non-funding. As a result, many projects that would have contributed to the welfare and professional needs of the armed forces are either pending or still on their drawing boards.

Mr Chairman, you are aware, for example, that many of our men and women in uniform now reside in civilian residences due to the inadequate accommodation in barracks and non-construction of new facilities for many years. Many hon. Members who have spoken on this Vote have raised this and I intend to answer it later. This is a matter we must address to ensure that defence forces are ever ready when called for duty.

Our determined effort to construct capital projects such as housing have been hampered by non-funding for capital projects. The ministry, nevertheless, still considers the provision of accommodation, the infrastructure and logistical support as priority for the ultimate affectivity of our defence forces. Mr Chairman, we do need more houses, yes, better water supply and sanitation, more and better equipment for executing war in the protection of our country and heighten the morale of our men and women in uniform.

Mr Chairman, Zambia’s role in the furtherance of peace and development in our region is unparalleled. We have not only contributed to the liberation of the southern region, but we now continue to promote regional co-operation through bilateral as well as regional efforts. Zambia has three mechanisms under which we are promoting security in the region. These are Bilateral Joint Permanent Commission on Defence and Security, the Tripartite Mechanism among Zambia, Namibia and Angola and the SADC Inter-State Defence Security Committee.

In specific reference to Angola where we have had problems on our common border, we have used both the Bilateral Joint Permanent Commission on Defence and Security and the Tripartite Mechanism to address the resulting issues. These have provided us effective tools to solve problems peacefully and amicably. By and large, Zambia is enjoying very cordial relationship on matters of defence and security with all SADC member States. We extend the same cordiality to all COMESA countries. We are able to achieve this because our defence policy is based on mutual respect and peace with all our neighbours and on non-interference in their internal affairs.

Mr Chairman, the defence forces need to recruit new personnel due to natural evaluation, social, transition and attrition. Therefore, we need the necessary support to ensure that eligible Zambians from all corners of the country have the opportunity to join the defence forces. Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Defence sees a bright future for our country in which the defence forces have a positive role to play. With the support of the people of Zambia, through this august House, the defence forces have the capacity to hugely contribute to economic development of our country through the activities of the Zambia National Service, Zambia Air Force and the Army.

Mr Chairman, permit me to comment, briefly, on some of the points raised by hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this Vote. The hon. Deputy Minister for Home Affairs supports the Vote and I thank him for that. Miss Banda, who seems to be very knowledgeable about Zambia Army affairs, I think, issued some worthwhile ideas for us, as Government, to think about. Indeed, it is our wish, certainly, to support the operations of our defence forces and I am not too sure that each time there is a command change, even uniforms change. I am not too sure about that, but I am sure, we will continue buying new uniforms as we recruit more of our young people to enter our defence forces. 

She has a personal interest, I believe, in the matter that former commanders are neglected. She talked of Zambia’s first army commander as languishing. I do not think so because, I think, if we are talking about the same individual and I would like to believe that the former Army Commander became a Minister and one of them even went on to be Prime Minister and, indeed, in the case of the first Army Commander, he even participated in the most recent elections. He was a candidate for one political party in Lusaka here. The fact that he was defeated, is another matter, indeed.


The Vice-President: If he had the resources to put in his election campaign, then one would have thought that, perhaps, a wise man would wish to look after his other interests first before going into this very expensive game, which has rendered, I think, most of us destitute. I know that.

The idea of our soldiers being in compounds, is a debatable issue. I was witness in this House once before when the former Army Commander, who was my predecessor here, spoke to defend the idea of putting our people scattered as opposed to being in one place. Who am I to question the wisdom of a former Army Commander?


The Vice-President: Hon. Major-General D. S. Zulu, as usual, indeed, in his hilarious way, debated very well that we should look into the affairs of the Zambia National Service. Yes, salaries are low, but in actual fact, you have a point, Hon. Major-General Zulu. If the equipment that is with the Zambia National Service was put to commercial use, it is not for the Government to go looking for contracts for them. It is for them to have a commercial division to look for work. They should put tenders. The moment we start just giving them work because they are Zambia National Service, the next thing will be the Anti-Corruption Commission on Government leaders, ‘now these are getting commissions and so on’. 

So, what we would like to see is a situation where those engineers, and I know they are very good because in my case, I have used them in making a road and on constructing dams, should tender. These road tenders are not just given like that. We advertise them and we expect them also to put in their tenders. You are right, some of the equipment they have is better than the equipment that some of these South African contractors are using. Their equipment is new. So, we expect that they should be a little bit more aggressive and not just sit there waiting for the Government to give them jobs.

The Builders’ Brigade, yes, indeed, has built some of the nicest houses around here and we would like to use them. In fact, they should also tender. We have, with Parliament approving some of these Votes, to build two houses for our two former Presidents this year. So, here is something for the Zambia National Service Builders’ Brigade. If I just give then a contract like that, again, you will be the same House saying there was corruption. So, we would like them to tender because we do know that they can do that job and, in fact, those are sensitive structures. So, they should be the ones to construct such projects and houses for our former leaders. Again, I offer them the opportunity to come and tender.

The Zambia National Service has farms everywhere. Yes, they have farms everywhere. Indeed, I am aware of that. They have a very nice farm near the airport doing nothing there. That farm is so beautiful, it has streams at the airport farm, but they are not doing anything, yet they have the equipment to do everything.

They also had tractors, as you know General Zulu, tractors were being run without oil or being serviced. Remember the tractors you had when you were there yourself. Now, those tractors are all over the country in camps, including this very one here (Chamba Valley). If you go there you will find a lot of equipment which came from Czechoslovakia wearing down because they did not maintain the equipment. So, it is my hope that the equipment, which we have now, will be maintained. 

Hon. J. K. Mwiimbu talked about internal refugees. We have heard that in some parts of our country people have had to abandon their homes in order to come to Bomas for protection. This is in regard to those that live in boarder areas. As you may be aware, if you have seen refugees living better, it is because the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) looks after them. In fact, it is the UNHCR that supports those foreign refugees, but I think it is the responsibility of the Government to look after internal people where there is a serious problem. I can assure you that we do just that.

Last week my Permanent Secretary was in Lukulu to visit and offer support to some of our people who have been running away from their villages by the boarder to come in- side. So, we are looking after them and assisting them through sending relief food and tents as well as much other needed equipment.

Hon. Nawakwi is not here. Obviously she is now older and wiser. The things that we wanted her to do when she was Minister of Finance and Economic Development, now she wants us to do them.


The Vice-President: She failed to do them. 

Now she wants equitable treatment to all the forces. Yes, we would like to do that if money is made available. It is our wish that all our men in uniform or people that look after the security of this country are treated equally and equitably. That has always been our wish.

It is indeed true that some have been given houses to buy and others were not. Well, it is the Government’s intention that once we clarify this idea of whether our defence forces should be in the compounds with the people or should have just have their own special residences, I think it will be much better. I am aware that some have been given houses to buy whilst others have not because the excuse used is that some of them occupy institutional houses. However, this does not only affect the Ministry of Defence but also the Ministry of Health.

Sir, she further talked about Egyptian National Service as being in charge of strategic food reserves. Yes, that is what we would like them to do here also. When there is no war, we want our people, especially the Zambia National Service with the equipment that they have, to be able to produce the food that the country needs. I do recall and agree to what General Zulu said. They have got farms in almost every district of the country. So, where is the food and why are they not producing food?


The Vice-President: Yes, because they were not serviced at all. I have just told you that they run them without servicing them. Now, any equipment that you run without servicing is bound to give in.

Hon. Nawakwi, further, encouraged the Commander-in-Chief to visit his troupes wearing uniform. Well, I will pass on the message. I am sure that if they have the right size of uniform for me as well, I would love to wear that uniform and visit.


Mr Sibetta: That is a party that is raged.

The Vice-President: That is a party in Government and power. It is a party that is ruling. So, you do not refer to it as raged.

Hon. Dr Machungwa has a lot of experience in there and I also noticed with delight that the personal emolument figure has gone from K28 billion to K108 billion. This shows that we care and do appreciate that the salaries that our uniformed personnel have been receiving needed adjustment and that is what the Budget is saying. Once you approve that then our people will receive better salaries. 

Hon. Sakwiba Sikota talked about AIDS. Well, that issue has been taken care of in the Yellow Book. Maybe it has not come out as AIDS, but in fact, it is in three different places. Normally we look after that particular Vote through the Ministry of Health and Maina Soko itself. You will see that when you come to the Yellow Book we have done something about it in many ways. 

We know that our people who have to leave their homes and go round protecting us need to be prone to this. If you wish to look at the Budget Estimates, the Defence Force Medical Services has a big figure in there. Indeed, Defence Force Medical Services is K171,349,000 and there is also Defence Force Medical Services there is K1, 012,799, 884 billion. So, we have taken care of our people.

As regards financial discipline, we do believe that every organisation has to have some discipline in the way they look at their finances if they are to exist and continue to exist. The equipment you think is not in Southern Province- in fact, there is a lot of equipment meant to go to Livingstone which is in Choma as that equipment is still working in Choma. After Choma that equipment is expected to go to Livingstone. 

The figures that you talk about- I am sure my very able colleague the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did give some indications as to where the figures that you talk about went. I think it is a little bit presumptuous to suggest that our people in the defence forces are helping themselves with villager’s food because they have not been paid. I think that is not right. In fact, when they go they are well looked after and we make sure that they are given the money. As the hon. Minister stated the places they go to  do not have banks so, they do carry cash. I do not know what amounts they carry but they carry cash because there are no banks in there. 

Sir, the issue of Gabon will require a substantial answer, but I can tell you that when I was attending a conference in South Africa the hon. Minister of Defence of Gabon wanted to see me and talk about the Gabon Disaster. According to him, the report is incomplete. So I am yet, to verify that because they wanted us to meet with them.

Hon. Opposition Members: How many years!

The Vice-President: A substantial answer could be given but that is what the hon. Minister Defence of Gabon came to see me about in Durban. It was to talk about this matter. He did say that the report was not complete as far as they were concerned and could we meet again?

Hon. Sakwiba Sikota also talked about the aircraft that went to Israel and I believe that there is a report on this matter, which is available somewhere within the building. So, if you wish, we shall assist you in retrieving that report so that you can read it.

Mr Chairman, I thought I should cover those few things in order to answer some of the pertinent issues raised by the hon. Members of the House. All in all I wish to thank you very much for supporting the efforts of our men and women in uniforms.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters –K317,855,671,797).

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, the Leader of the House indicated that under Grants and Other Payments, that is where the HIV/AIDS component was, perhaps if I could be shown which one of those.

The Chairman: Where do you need a clarification?

Mr Sikota: In the explanation, there was HIV/AIDS mentioned as we have had in the other ministries.

The Vice-President: Yes, indeed, Mr Chairman, the issue has not come up specifically as HIV/AIDS, but we do know that we have K112,799,894 for this very particular Vote.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Hon. Government Members: Page 270!

The Chairman: It is under Medical Services. We have not dealt with that one yet. Why do you not have patience that when we come to that, that is when you can ask a question?


The Chairman: Are you going to cross a bridge before you reach there?

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/02 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia Army – K149,139,814,964).

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Chairman, may I seek clarification on sub-head 3 – Grants and Other Payments, item 01, sub-item 001, Messes – K88,624,000. I would like to find out why the figure for messes has drastically reduced, this is a social welfare for the officers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Your Honour, we are waiting!


The Chairman: Page 266 under sub-item 3 – Grants and Other Payments.


The Chairman: Order!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Chairman, when you post the command to the borders, they are not at the same time using the mess here.


Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kasonde: So, there is always a reduction.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: Order, order!

He is the Minister of Finance and National Planning and is explaining the query raised by Hon. Mwiimbu. If you know the answer better than he does, well stand up and tell the House.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

The Chairman: If you have the …

Mr Sibetta indicated to speak.

The Chairman: I have not given you the Floor.

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

The Chairman: I have not given you the Floor. If you have the answer better than he does, I will give you the Floor so that you can tell us what the truth is. Anybody who has got the answer?

Mr Sibetta: Mr Chairman, with due respect to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we are aware that the duty free facilities to our men have been removed.

Hon. Government Members: No debate!

The Chairman: No debate!


The Chairman: No, debate, what is the answer to this query?


The Chairman: Sit down! Sit down! 

A query is raised and the Minister has given the answer. Now, you have disapproved the Minister’s answer, that means somebody amongst you should have the correct answer. That is what we would like to hear. If you have not got the answer, then let us progress.

Let me put it this way, Hon. Mwiimbu, you raised this question, are you satisfied with the answer given?

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairman, no, I am not satisfied.

The Chairman: All right! What is your problem?

Mr Mwiimbu: I am not satisfied, Mr Chairman, because this is part of social welfare for our officers and these messes are always operational and the cost of maintaining them has gone up. So, I do not see the reason why …

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, it is true these messes are officers’ and non-commissioned officers’ messes but the cost has gone up.

The Chairman: Thank you, Hon. Mwiimbu, they are, now, looking for the answer.


The Chairman: Order, order!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, this figure relates to maintenance of messes and running costs. Now, because most of our people in uniform are expected to be outside at the border like Kaputa, Chavuma, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Not all of them!

The Vice-President: … Zambezi, Lukulu, Shango’mbo and all other places, …


The Vice President: … there will be more people out there than there will be here because of the problems we are having at the borders. So, that is what it means.

I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Opposition Members: Progress!

Mr Chairman: Good, I am glad you are making the Executive work!

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/03 – (Ministry of Defence – Zambia Air Force – K106,768,486,960).

Mr Lubinda: Mr. Chairman, I would like clarification on sub-head 3, item 02, sub-item 001 – Duty Free Scheme – K7,000,000, I wonder why the other wings of the Ministry of Defence do not have that provision.

The Chairman: What is your problem. I cannot follow what you are saying.

Mr Lubinda: Mr. Chairman, I do not have a problem but I have a question. My question is, why is it that the Zambia Air Force has on sub-head 3, item 02, sub-item 001 – Duty Free Scheme – K7,000,000, when the other wings of the Defence Force do not have? The Zambia Army, for example, does not have this provision, the Zambia National Service does not have this provision either, …

The Chairman: Order! We are dealing with the Zambia Air Force. Until we come to the other wings, you cannot ask that question.


The Chairman: Order! That is a policy issue which you should have debated in the policy debate. You cannot bring it up when we are dealing with figures. That is what you should have brought up in the first instance so as to give the Executive a chance to find a solution to your problem as the hon. Minister has ably handled all the queries raised by Hon. Sikota. All right, we progress.


Mr. Lubinda: My question has not been dealt with.

The Chairman: You should observe the rules of procedure, for goodness sake. If we have to do everything haphazardly, where this one stands up and the other one stands up, I will walk out of this place. It will be as simple as that. Let us follow the procedure, I have explained.

The Vice-President: Mr. Chairman, the Zambia Air Force has departure lounges at the City Airport and other airports which the Zambia Army does not have. So, that is what that amount is there for.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr Lubinda: That is what I wanted to know. Is that policy?

The Chairman: It is a policy issue which I have said you should have brought up during debate and not under figures.


The Chairman: Order! Are we ready now?

Hon. Members: Yes.

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77/05 – (Ministry of Defence – Defence Medical Services – K1,184,148,884).

Mr Moonde: On a point of clarification?

The Chairman: Let me finish the figure first and then you can say clarification. Eeh!


The Chairman: You have the right to ask for clarification but you have to wait until I finish mentioning the figures. I do not know what procedure hon. Members want to adopt in dealing with the Business of the House. I am prepared to learn if what I know is not enough. Let somebody come and say this is the right thing, I am prepared to learn. Right? Yaah!


The Chairman: Recurrent Departmental Charges - K1,012,799,884, any debate?. That is when you ask clarification.


Moonde: I thank you, Sir, …

The Chairman: I have not given you the Floor yet. 


The Chairman: Now, any debate?

Mr Moonde: Mr. Chairman, I would like to find out why Personal Emoluments are missing on this Vote.

The Chairman: We have dealt with Personal Emoluments already on this Vote.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr. Chairman, His Honour the Vice President had indicated to us that the Vote on AIDS would be appearing under the Defence Medical Services. I have scrutinised the Vote and I cannot see the K1 billion he referred to. If anything, the Vote on drugs has been drastically reduced. I do not see how they are going to manage the hospitals under this Vote.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 2, item 5, sub-item 031– Drugs, is this K1 billion for HIV/AIDS only? I have also noticed that the Personal Emoluments are missing. Is it an error?


The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, we are talking about Defence Medical Services and the figures are there. Now, which figure of K1 billion are you talking about?


The Vice-President: It is here Defence Medical Services – K1,012,799,884 and the two figures tally. So, I do not know where the problem is.


The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, all diseases like Malaria, TB, etc. are under Defence Medical Services. You have a figure there of K1,012,799,884.


The Chairman: Do we make progress?

Hon. Members: Progress, Progress!

The Chairman: Hon. Members, here it says Head 77/05, Ministry of Defence, Defence Medical Services. What is tabulated on this page are the services relating to medical provisions not for Personal Emoluments. Personal Emoluments are within their own personal units. You will find that as we progress, there will be some heads which will have no Personal Emoluments but will have provisions for services.

We do not have to blame anybody. I think it is important that after this, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning work out a scheme for the next Budget so that hon. Members are sort of inducted on the terminology of the Budget. Then we shall have no such problems.

Dr Machungwa: Too dull!

The Chairman: No, some of you have been here before and you are used to this system. Let us not blame the hon. Member. We should assist him.


Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/01 – (Ministry of Education –Headquarters – K841,494,060,927).

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Chairman, I thank you for affording me this opportunity to say something on this Vote.

First of all, Sir, I would like to share what I have observed and what is done in other countries, which is not done here in Zambia. For the past ten years, our Government has not put priorities on which ministries are important. For example, the Ministry of Education is an industry which produces who are in this august House today and people who work in ministries and in all provinces. If you look at how people were paid before MMD came into power, teachers had no problems and they were not beggars. We had correct results and no one can dispute that. There are so many leakages these days because examination papers are found all over the streets.

Mr Chairman before MMD came to power, these things were not there. Our education in Zambia has been diluted. The problem we have now is that our teachers spend more hours in search of food than in classes. Their salaries are below par. According to the Zambian economy, teachers get a salary of about K80,000 or K60,000 and they are not paid in time. This has caused teachers’ morale to go down. These days, there are more drop-outs in Zambia than in the UNIP regime. The conditions of service for teachers should be improved like for any other ministry.

Mr Chairman, in five years to come, we are going to experience a situation in Zambia where people will not produce good results. We are going to have very dull civil servants who will just be employed for lack of having qualified people.

Mr Chairman, I am a proud man because I went to school during the UNIP regime. During the UNIP regime, teachers used to be respected and they never used to be beggars. A Grade 7 of those days would read proper English and speak proper grammar, and would be seen that the person has gone to school. The Grade 7s of nowadays are even failing to read and they cannot even write their names. The MMD Government is to blame.

I am urging the so-called MMD New Deal Government to know that they are here because of teachers. We have managers because of teachers. I hope that what the Government has given the Ministry of Education in the Yellow Book is going to be enough to solve problems the ministry is facing. I think it is raw deal. I am one of those who do not just want to debate anyhow because I want to be heard. I mean business. 

I have been thanking the New Deal Government where they have done a good job. What I am now asking them is to start thinking where they can invest and where they can not invest. They should invest in the Ministry of Education. The Government will do a good favour to the Zambians.

Mr Chairman, if you go to rural areas you will find out that teachers’ houses are dilapidated. Most of the trained teachers are squatting in nearby villages called Mudindo. This is a situation we cannot accept in this modern world where our civil servants should be taken for granted. It is high time the New Deal Government changed things for teachers and improved everything. Zambians should not be exploited for doing a good job. We would want to see those in Grade 4 know how to read, write and speak good English.


Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Chairman, those who shout are hon. Members who do not even go to their constituencies and they do not know how people are suffering in these rural areas.

Mr Chairman, I would like the hon. Minister to look into the plight of paying the teachers the promised rural hardship allowances, double class allowances and many more allowances. These things were there before the MMD Government came into power. The MMD Government found the schools already built and they are failing to maintain them now. There was a sound economy in this country. But now you are pushing us into the corner to agree to the diesel issue because they are afraid to mention that they have inherited empty coffers.

During the UNIP regime, the civil servants used to walk in streets with their head up when they were paid but now you cannot even notice between the end of the month and the fifteenth.

So, I am urging these hon. Ministers who seem to be listening and promising to work for the Zambian people to start paying what they promised the civil servants. The teachers should be paid the allowances that they have not been getting.

Mr Chairman, last year, there was a company that started getting money from teachers by pretending that they were going to supply them with solar power. Teachers have been paying since last year in September and up to now, the ministry is still deducting from their salaries and the services have not been given to the people of Chipangali. Where is that money going and what will happen to the people who have died before the service has been given to them?

Mr Chairman, I would like the Ministry of Education to be well funded so that the teachers’ houses in rural areas are maintained and the teachers are well paid. We would like to have good results next year because teachers waste more time in begging than in teaching.

I would also like to implore the Government that whenever there are these jobs of registration of voters and census, these jobs should be given to teachers instead of just getting people from the streets or relatives of some of the hon. Ministers. We would want the people who have sacrificed to work in ministries and rural areas to be considered and not to be considering relatives from Lusaka Urban where they enjoy good life.

Thank you, Sir.

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for giving me a chance to contribute to the debate on this Vote which is very close to my heart.

Mr Chairman, allow me to draw the hon. Minister of Education’s attention to a few observations I have on our education system. It is like we do not have a reliable and dependable education system, especially for the past 10 years. If you remember, all of us went to school, and we used to go to school start learning in our local languages. Then from nowhere, people said start using English languages in Grade 1. This system has failed. They have now reverted to the Kaunda era, proving that they are total failures. This is the MMD Government. Therefore, they should actually compensate for the 10 years they have produced half-baked students. It is not morally right to just change systems for the sake of confusing the nation. We should adopt systems that benefit us.

Mr Chairman, if we are not serious with education, we will go nowhere. By changing offices, each one comes with his programmes, we are not going to progress. We shall only reduce the quality of our education. I have gone through this Vote. I am a bit delighted to learn that there is rural housing for teachers. I am from a rural constituency. We have a school called Mwembeshi. It is an open basic school. 

It is struggling to get pupils up to Grade 12. But we have only three houses. The rest of the teachers are squatting and the hon. Minister of Education no longer inspects these schools. All you hear is that you have to increase the intake and meanwhile the teachers’ welfare is not looked after very well. This goes through to all rural schools. That is why teachers are now reluctant to go into rural schools because once you go there, you are forgotten. The only thing you can do is to get married to a village headman. 


Captain Moono: Mr Chairman, we cannot continue to forsake our own education, especially in the rural areas. 

May I also take a swipe at the University of Zambia. Since the introduction of the private-sponsored children, the pendulum has tilted to those parents who can afford to pay for their children at the University of Zambia. Even after closing enrolment date, if you have money, you can still send your child there. 

Mr Chairman, I come from a very poor background, and my heart bleeds. It was born during the MMD era, I would just be a village headman because my parents were not going to afford to send me to school. I am here now because of the deliberate policy of the Government at that time to give education to everybody. Because they heard that UPND wanted to provide free education, they have gone saying that there is free education up to Grade 7 and as if that is not enough, they are now encouraging our children should go to school without uniforms. 

I am totally against this concept. I am against this concept because uniforms make pupils look the same, those from the upper and lower classes and they are able to participate equally in class. How can a child from the poor family go to school na figamba, patches, and sit in front and stand up and answer a question? He or she will very much be discouraged because he or she is hiding the figamba. Let us not get policies that are going to make our teachers very difficult to teach our children. You want now to politicise by saying MMD says no uniforms, meanwhile you are lowering the quality and standards of our education. I think we should be more serious with our education. When we said that we want free education, we did not say that our children should go naked to school. You have mistaken this concept. That is the problem of copying issues.


Captain Moono: Mr Chairman, may I also dwell on the educational boards. Because of their inconsistency policies, they have introduced educational boards. I am from Kafue District. There is an educational board which has been created. It has never been funded. For it to run now, they are charging every pupil K5,000 every month. A pupil has to pay K15,000 per term going against the Government’s policy of free education. If you want educational boards, please, fund them. Do not get parents who are already stripped financially again to start giving educational boards. If educational boards are not funded, they are useless and you should remove them, especially from my constituency, Chilanga, with immediate effect. I do not need them.


Captain Moono drank some water.

Captain Moono: As regards training for teachers, this should be accessed even by those teachers in rural areas. They should have an opportunity to train. Once a teacher is damped in a rural area, he is forgotten. Those malingering at headquarters are the people who are confusing the training programmes. This should stop. This is what is discouraging our teachers from accepting to go into rural areas. They would rather marry a mishanga seller in town as long it means to remain in town because that is where bread and butter are shared. I think we have to change. If we are going to sit in these offices without articulating the problem of our education properly making our education reliable and appropriate to the communities, then we are doing nothing. We will keep on jumping up and down.

For instance, you have now introduced cards to write an examination which is going at K15,000. Do you mean that a teacher cannot know his or her own pupils from Grade 1 up to examination time? A pupil has to wear something. These are just fund raising ventures which are meant to steal money from already impoverished Zambians. They should go with the new culture, this is a New Deal, and we shall mark you very tightly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Captain Moono: The co-operation we are giving you is temporal. If you are going to behave like new culture, we shall withdraw it.

Mr Chairman, I want also to look at certain programmes like the interactive broadcasting programme that is meant for rural pupils. Because of the way it has been implemented, it is not benefiting our rural children. In future, when you have these programmes, if you do not know, please, consult us for free. We will give you free advice because we live in the rural communities and we know what is supposed to be for them. Instead of going to expensive hotels to make decisions that affect the rural people, let us involve the rural teacher so that he is aware of what the Government is doing. We are abandoning the rural teacher just because he has been posted there. As a result, we have let down our education.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Appel): Thank you, Mr Chairman.

In support of the Vote for the Ministry of Education, I think we have spoken quite a lot attacking the system of free education. I happen to have been the Board Chairman of Kitwe Educational Board when it was introduced up to the time when I came to Parliament. Now, I can tell you that when I went into the schools, I was disgusted to find that most schools were in such a horrible state that only those schools that were applying the system of contribution started to improve. And at some of the schools, you could not even walk into the ablution block without wearing a mask.

That is how the situation was.  There were no blackboards, there was nothing in the schools. All we had was free education, believe me. You had free education but nothing in the schools. I do not know what was free. Now, I can guarantee you that in a short time from the inception of the boards, there was a system of contribution by parents…


Mr Appel: Yes, the parents were contributing towards micro-projects as a community and a donor community was supporting these projects and in a very short time, all the schools were uplifted to a very high standard, I can assure you. 

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Appel: You were even finding books in the schools, which you never saw, writing materials, cleaning materials, I am telling you. It is a fact, I am talking from facts. You know, it is one thing to predict something; it is another thing to put it in practice. I can tell you facts that there has been a tremendous improvement in what I have seen. I have covered forty-nine primary schools and, there was not a single school that was not dilapidated. Now, if you go in all the schools in Kitwe, you will see with your own eyes. The only problem I found is that, a lot of parents do not support their own children. They think that when they send their children to school it becomes a Government’s responsibility.  It is not the Government’s responsibility to look after the child, it is the parent’s responsibility.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Appel:  One of the areas I know is that we did have a problem recently. What has happened recently is that when the Government started giving the houses to teachers, a lot of new teachers became displaced. Now the problem is that we have to solve this problem very urgently because a lot of new teachers are squatting because we cannot find accommodation. But, I believe it is something we can solve because we have got thousands of unemployed youth who, if we put them to proper use can start building houses for teachers. All we need is to create a budget next year where teachers can borrow money and build houses. 

We can also allocate plots to teachers through the councils. I think the councils should seriously look at that problem and allocate plots as quickly as possible so that teachers can start building houses for themselves. A lot of teachers who cannot be repatriated because, as you know when our Government took over - you will not believe that- there has been a massive debt from the time I joined the education boards. That debt means that all these teachers who are supposed to be repatriated are still in the houses. They are living in those houses because there is no money to send them back, denying the new teachers accommodation. That is a very serious problem, which also has to be looked at. 


Mr Appel: Yes! We are looking at that and it is a genuine problem and I believe it can be solved. We inherited it and we will solve it. Sir, this problem has been there for the past twenty years, and we found it.    

Mr Chairman, I think, for the time being, I would like to appeal to all parents, please continue with the programme of supporting the contribution scheme to the school programmes. Although the school fees have been abolished, you will help me to support the programmes. 

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

The Chairman: Mr Kalumiana.


Hon. Members: Kalumiana, Kalumiana.

Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda): Mr Chairman, Thank you very much. The proper pronunciation of  my name is Kalumiana.


Mr Kalumiana:  Just listen. Mr Chairman, thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak. I think the problem that I find here is that our friends there have problems in priority setting. 

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear! They do not know.


Mr Kalumiana: I think they have a serious problem in that area. 

Hon Opposition Members: Tell them.

Mr Kalumiana:  They have a serious problem in that area. In  as much as I support this vote, I would want to appeal to the Government, you people there that you need to do a lot more…

Hon. Opposition Member: Ba Mulenga.

Mr Kalumania: …than what you are doing or what you have indicated in this Yellow Book. I was reading the President’s Speech, he has talked about three specific areas of prime interest. He has talked about access provision of requisites about quality. Hon. Appel was defining quality in terms of technical definition. But what I want you to look at is your definition of quality in term of client satisfaction, particularly as far as rural schools are concerned.  These boards can work in your urban set up. They cannot work in my set up, that is in Nalikwanda or any rural constituency. 

Hon. Opposition Members: In  Magoye.

Mr Kalumiana: Yes in Magoye as well. Just last week, the hon. Minister of Education was telling us, or was giving us those sad figures. If  one looked at the picture critically, the failure rate in Western Province, North-Western Province is much more than the other places you are talking about. 

Mr Situmbeko: Yes! He does not understand.

Mr Kalumiana:  And the explanation that he was giving us… 

Mr Sibetta:  Interjected.

Mr Kalumiana: …to say that the reason why that was so, was not satisfying. We all know that the census and registration of voters exercise was carried out in the whole country. We know that that was an election year. In fact, in the places where the passing rate was higher, people voted for more days than in our places. So, what we are saying is that we should look beyond the issues of quality and access. When I am talking of access, there are several constraints or factors that inhibit access. We should look at access not in terms of physical access. But you should look at access in terms of all the possible or probable factors that inhibit access such as physical barriers, location of facilities and the girl, the ratio between the girl-child and the boy-child. We should also look at access from the social economic factors point of view. 

Our President says that he wants to make sure that all our children have access to education. But you are there advocating for the existence of these boards. These boards have never worked. I am coming from a sector where we experienced problems with these boards. All that you are trying to do is to run away from your responsibility as a Government of running schools to the boards. You want to sit and say, after all you are a board, you must generate your own funds. You must do more than that. 

We want to see a situation where when you will define quality, you will not defining it from the technical point of view. But you will look at it from the client satisfaction point of view as I have already said.  You only need to look at the key indicators for you to know whether you are fairing well or not as far as the performance of the education system is concerned. You have to define you indicators and set your targets as a Ministry of Education. What are your key indicators in relation to what you want to achieve. But if you are only going to say that well, we will provide access, we will also provide quality education. There must be must a pre-set target. And your target must consist of your indicators. Now, your performance indicators are definitely very bad. You faired very badly in the last ten years. And if this is what the New Deal is going to take on board, I am afraid, very soon, like my friend was saying, we shall show you a red card.


Mr Situmbeko: Free lecture.

The Chairman: You are a leader and as such, you should respect other people in leadership. We are not on the football pitch where the referee has to issue red cards indiscriminately. You must understand the essence of leadership. If you are incapable of being led by others, you are equally incapable of leading others. If you cannot respect a Minister now, and you talk to him with such threatening language of issuing red cards as if he is a footballer on the pitch, then you are distancing yourself from the good qualities of leadership. 

Will you, please, continue but first and foremost, withdraw that remark.

Mr Kalumiana: I thank you for that advice. What I was trying to say is that let us be very …

Hon. Government Members: Withdraw.

Mr Kalumiana: I have withdrawn, that is what I mean.


Mr Kalumiana: Mr Chairman, I was saying that I definitely withdraw that word.  In conclusion, I will say that I support this Bill but in doing so, I want to urge the Government to do much more as this is a key ministry. If you look at the morale of our teachers, particularly those in the rural areas, the days when a teacher was a role model are gone and as Government, yourselves there, you must find out why this is so.

 The days, like what my friend stated, when our grand parents used to give us letters to read or write while in Grade 4 are long gone. The quality and standard of education has drastically deteriorated in the last ten years, you must set yourself a vision defining exactly what you want to achieve in relation to our developmental process and programmes set objectives and the means by which you are going  to achieve them. That is what is missing in all your strategies. As long as you do not have a vision, strategy or a vehicle that will take you towards that vision, then you will continue to be  lost.

As a new Government, I have confidence that you will try to do a lot more, particularly that you are  a New Deal team. 

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Miss Namugala): Mr Chairman, in supporting this Vote, I would like to say to this House that education is not cheap. It costs money and that cost should not be to Government alone. The parents should also be prepared to contribute …


Mr Chairman: Let us make progress, will you continue!

Miss Namugala: Schools, for instance, are in better shape, now, than they were when MMD took over power.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Miss Namugala: We all know that. Sir, I think we need to change the attitude towards education. The parents must be prepared to meet Government somewhere. Government is trying its best and as a result, you need to support Government efforts. 

I have been looking through the Yellow Book, for instance, and I know that there is K30 billion allocated for new secondary schools and there is a further allocation for rural housing for teachers. So, when you say …

Mr Chairman: Order! Will you listen patiently and then when you are given a chance, you can rebut. You are not going to debate by raising points of order. I have noticed something, which I would not like to say, so, let us keep quiet. Will you, please, continue!

Miss Namugala: Mr Chairman, I was saying that educating children should be a task for both parents and Government and I have noticed that my Government is doing its best in ensuring that the standards of education are raised. I know, Sir, that, for instance, in this year’s budget, money has been allocated to improvement of rural housing for teachers, secondary schools and development of new schools. Members of this House, it is all right to criticise but give credit where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Namugala: We all know the state in which the schools were in 1991 before MMD took power.


Miss Namugala: We all know that. So, let us not have a short memory.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.


Mr Chibanga (Chama North): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for giving me this chance of contributing to the debate on this Vote. I would like to remind the hon. Member for Isoka East that pupils are going to Malawi from her constituency because education there is very cheap. Maybe, she is not aware of that. I am saying so because she is my neighbour.


Mr Chibanga: I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education what has happened to the Buildings Departments? This department seems to be out of use in the Ministry of Education. I am saying this because in my constituency particularly, this department is not working because some schools had their roofs blown off some time back and they have never been repaired. So, I wonder whether this department is being funded so that we can have the glass panes that broke due to heavy rains replaced. So, I would like the hon. Minister of Education to fund this department as workers there are just loafing.  I have witnessed this in Lundazi and Chama districts that this department is not doing anything.

My second question is on school leavers. What has happened to untrained teachers? The Government has stopped recruiting school leavers when, in fact, it is one way of helping our school leavers by providing them with employment. In my constituency, schools which are in far away areas from the district have got one teacher per seven classes, as I indicated in my maiden speech. These schools are manned by one teacher who is old and supposed to be retired but cannot do so because there are no teachers that can be sent there.

As you are aware, these teachers that we have, now, are from well to do families and cannot be sent to these rural areas as they are given an option; they choose which school they would want to go to. So, I would like to implore the hon. Minister of Education to give us untrained teachers so that they can be deployed in these rural areas. As I have said, what is happening in my constituency is that they are getting Grade 7 teachers, in most cases, those who have been in town. In payment, they are given tins of rice and Chipuli (tobacco) which is being processed in my constituency.

So, it is a very disgracing situation to find that school going pupils are being taught by uneducated fellows like Grade sevens. It is a very disheartening situation, which is happening in my constituency that people can be paid a tin or maize or rice for the job being rendered to school.

Coming to payment, there is no bank and the one which is there is a small one like a post office. So, teachers complain of late payment because they go up to 14th of the following month without getting paid. So, I would urge the hon. Minister of Education that they must send payments to the remote areas early since they do not have any means of getting their salaries.

Coming to the Inspector of Schools, I have noticed that education has deteriorated in our country maybe, because they do not go to these schools to go and inspect how the teachers are performing.

Our education standards are going down, teachers must be monitored by inspectors who are deployed at district level. So, hon. Minister of Education, I implore you to look into this matter. Inspectors of schools should be visiting schools. As I indicated, roads in my constituency are very bad. Chama has produced professors like Professor Lameck Goma. We want other professors to be produced in Chama. There are really intelligent people out there who can help develop this country. We have produced a number of professionals in our district. We want the hon. Minister to implore inspectors of schools to be visiting remote areas of the country.

Coming to production units, we are talking about agriculture. In the UNIP era, you are aware that we used to have production units. I would like to request the hon. Minister of Education to make sure that all schools are given a field. It is very beneficial. It is not that we are trying to exploit the pupils, but other pupils are not very good in academic work. After leaving school, they can be helped by taking up farming because production units teach how to prepare contour ridges, how to plant maize and many other skills of farming. As it is now, schools have no production units. So, we want the hon. Minister of Education to make sure that each school, whether primary or secondary, has a production unit so that they can help us have food security and fight the hunger situation that is prevailing in this country. Schools are capable of producing, maybe, 200 to 400 bags of maize, if they are well monitored.

Coming to teachers’ accommodation in the rural areas, the houses are dilapidated because they have not been undergoing repairs. So, Mr Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Education to ask the Buildings Department to go to far-flung areas where teachers are staying in grass-thatched houses because there is no accommodation. How can you be proud that you are educating our future leaders? It is not only pupils who are in town who are intelligent. There are some intelligent pupils in villages also. It does not mean that only people who have money can produce intelligent children. Even the vulnerable people in remote areas can also produce intelligent people who can serve this country. We are talking about quality education. Let us invest in these rural areas so that we can have quality education. 

So, we want the hon. Minister of Education to go to these rural areas and construct good houses. This HIPC money you are talking about cannot afford to provide us houses in rural areas because when it is given, maybe, in my district they can only approve one secondary school and say that they have rendered a service. So, hon. Minister of Education, see to it that teachers in rural areas are well accommodated.

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Muliokela): Mr Chairman, it is a noble principle to give credit where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muliokela: You will all agree with me, Mr Chairman, that in 1991 when we took over power, all the schools were completely dilapidated.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Muliokela: All the structures were completely wrecked. Vandalism was rife in all schools. All the windows were completely shattered. So, …

Business was suspended from 2015 hours until 2030 hours.

Mr Muliokela: Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I was saying that vandalism was rife in all schools and that children were squatting on floors. About 80 per cent of windowpanes in classrooms were shattered and that there was no sense of ownership of public property in this country during the Second Republic. To add salt to the injury, the UNIP Government nationalised all well run private schools which were later abandoned to the dilapidation process, but through MMDs various and vigorous reform programmes, which included the liberalisation of the education system in the country, …

Hon. Opposition Member: You are reading.

Mr Muliokela: I am a Minister, it is a speech I am reading.


Mr Muliokela: …and also by fully involving all the parents through PTAs, school and college boards and other commitments, the education system has, now, improved in this country. You will agree with me that most of you were just squatting on the floors during the Second Republic, …


Mr Muliokela: …but if you look at our schools this time, 75 per cent of them are wall fenced and have good windows. Almost everything has improved. Mr Chairman, at the moment, the standard of education is always open to everybody. We have a lot of programmes, which can be accessed by anybody through funding. We have HIPC and ZAMSIF. So, it is up to us, hon. Members of Parliament, to go and tell our electorate where they can access this money. It is not only a matter of just coming to Parliament and complain. That cannot help us or our electorate. Our Government is very busy and in addition to this, we have introduced free education, although you claim that that was in your manifestoes and yet it is in the MMD manifesto. We appeal to all the parents to continue facilitating the development of education in our country. So, it is up to you, hon. Members of Parliament, from tomorrow, go to the Ministry of Education and find out where this fund is. We have bundles and bundles of this money waiting for you.

Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: I have noticed two things. Firstly, the contributions from the Government are not in any way laudable to the Opposition. Secondly, those who have contributed have been hammering on almost the same points. No new ideas are forthcoming. As I can see, the temperature has drastically gone up, especially in the Opposition.


The Chairman: You know the temperature has changed. From the time we came in, it was all relatively breezy, nice, calm…


The Chairman: But, now…


The Chairman: … the pendulum has swung.


The Chairman: I think I will do a lot of justice to everybody if I asked the hon. Minister of Education to wind up debate.


The Minister of Education (Mr Mulenga): Mr Chairman, I feel greatly honoured to be accorded this chance to wind up the debate on the Estimates for the Ministry of Education. However, before I do that, I felt very tempted to give some answers to some of the questions that were raised by hon. Members of this august House. I think I will have to reserve some time as I conclude. Perhaps, I will recap. 

Sir, as hon. Minister responsible for education in this country, I stand to inform the House of the current state of our national education and to present plans for implementing the same, aimed at improving education standards in this country. It is my sincere hope that as I go along, perhaps, hon. members will have answers to some of the problems that they raised.

Sir, the importance of education in our development process has been well elaborated in the past and I need not dwell on it again. However, let me stress that the benefit of education can only be realised if individuals receive quality and relevant education. The ministry is mandated to provide education at basic schools, high schools, teacher training colleges and universities.

Mr Chairman, allow me to present the challenges which our education system is facing today so that hon. Members of Parliament can appreciate the magnitude of the tasks ahead of us.

Sir, the first one of them is stagnation of enrolment at certain levels of our education system. Secondly, it is because we have high poverty levels. We have an increasing number of orphans. We have an inadequate stock of teachers. Yes, at some level we have poor quality of education. Now, what is our way forward?

Sir, allow me to turn to programmes which my ministry has been implementing in order to address the challenges I have just stated above.

Mr Chairman, acquisition of basic education is a fundamental human right of every citizen. Therefore, it must be free and adequately provided by removing all the barriers that may lead to its limited provision. So, if uniform can be an impediment to a child’s education, then that impediment must be removed. That impediment must be removed so that the child is given chance to acquire minimum basic education. Therefore, the ministry is not saying do away with uniforms especially with those parents who can afford. We should not be misunderstood. If uniform is an issue to deter certain groups of pupils from achieving minimum basic education, we would rather do away with that demand.

Mr Chairman, the Government did get some achievements in basic education. In 2001, basic education was provided to 2,000,000 children in the following institutions: 4,378 were primary and basic schools; 850 were community schools; 350 were open centres. In order to improve basic education, Mr Chairman, the Government has taken the following steps:

The Government has introduced free education up to Grade 7. Schools will, from this year, be provided with funds to procure exercise books, rulers, pencils, rubbers and pens for pupils from Grade 1 to 7. In addition, basic teaching and learning materials like chalk, manila paper, felt pens and notebooks for teachers will also be provided. 

Furthermore, the Government has abolished all Statutory fees at Grades 1-7 and has scrapped Grade 7 examination fees. I am glad to report that these measures have reduced pupils' absenteeism from examinations by 40 per cent. 

Sir, let me come to Basic Education Sub-sector Investment Programme commonly known as BESSIP. The main vehicle for improving BESSIP education provision has been the BESSIP or Education Sub-Sector Investment Programme that was launched in 1999 to address aspects of access, quality and equity. BESSIP is a comprehensive programme for achieving basic education for all by the year 2015. It is co-funded by the Government of Zambia and a group of co-operating partners.

Mr Chairman, the House will appreciate that there have been tangible results from BESSIP. Notably the following have been achieved so far: schools with structures built in temporary materials are systematically being replaced with permanent structures.

Western and North-Western Provinces, which had the largest number of temporary schools, are targeted. So far, North-Western Province has received K1.7 billion out of K5.8 billion planned to be spent in that province while Western Province has been allocated K4.6 billion for sixty-four schools out of which only K1.9 billion has already been released.

Sir, Members of this House may wish to know that some communities tend to retain the temporary structures even after the permanent ones have been constructed. Communities do so because they would like to up grade their schools. This trend distorts the number of temporal structures being replaced by permanent ones. 

Sir, under the same programme, over 2,940 new classrooms has been constructed and 2,760 classrooms have rehabilitated providing additional places for over 112,400 pupils.

Mr Chairman, more than 1,481 houses for primary school teachers have been rehabilitated and over 1,380 teachers houses in all provinces have been constructed. 31,737 double seater desks for 63,474 pupils, while 930 teacher’s tables and 1,355 chairs have been procured under BESSIP. Over 2,478 textbooks in core subjects were bought.

The Zambia Teacher Education Course, briefly known as ZATEC Programme was implemented and doubled the teacher output from 2,000 to 4,000. 

Inclusive Schooling Programmes (INSPRO), which aim at integrating children with special learning needs in the mainstream has been launched.

I would like to appeal to the honourable Member for Chama to be quite polite to my boys and girls. We do not have dull pupils in our system but we have slow learners.

In addition, the ministry has increased in-service training through both teacher resource centres and teachers’ colleges.

The Government has further introduced a Primary Reading Programme resulting in increased reading skills for Grade 1and 2 pupils.

I quite agree, Mr Chairman, that for over ten years we shifted our attention from local language to English as a medium of instruction. But education a science and is quite dynamic. We do a lot of research in teaching methods. And therefore, we can claim to what we consider old methods. Recent research has indicated that pupils do better when and if they begin to read and write in their local language. Because we accept this fact, Government has shifted the attention and trend from beginning teaching people how to read and write in English.

I am glad, Mr Chairman, to announce that effective this year, throughout the country, in our seven local Zambian languages, all pupils will begin to learn how to read and write in their first language.

So far, research done somewhere in the Northern Province, has indicated that before the end of Grade One, all our boys and girls will be able to write in their first language.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: The reading competence will be equivalent to pupils who will have spent four years in primary schools.

Mr Shumina: Other countries have tried that. They have failed!

Mr Mulenga: Bear with us, if you find that we are changing from one method of teaching to another, it is as a result of new evidence because education is dynamic and we keep changing our methods of teaching.

Mr Chairman, the ministry has developed a new Basic School Curriculum Framework to make education more relevant. And in fact, all hon. Members of this House will do us a great favour and they will do themselves a great favour, by turning forward to contribute because our policy is open. We would like to involve all stakeholders at any time in the process of revising our curriculum. 

Mr Chairman, let me talk briefly about how BESSIP funds can be accessed. Hon. Members of this House can benefit and will help us get many schools either rehabilitated or built if they came to our ministry officials and learnt how they can easily and quickly guide the various people they represent to have access to these funds under the Zambia Social Investment Fund, known as ZAMSIF.

Projects, Mr Chairman, are demand-driven. However, communities, which have no ability to contribute, can also be supported. At present, BESSIP funds for construction and rehabilitation of schools can be accessed in the following ways:

I did mention, Mr Chairman, that hon. Members of this House, through local councils ,can have access to Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF).

When the community has shown commitment and has drawn a plausible project proposal, funds can be released. The process might sound long, but with the intervention of Members of Parliament, the process can be shortened. Community based initiatives can be supported by releasing funds directly to the schools. More than K60 billion was released through the District Education Offices in the year 2001.

Where there is need for construction and the community’s initiative are absent or weak, the ministry will access the need for a school and engage a contractor. Now, we do not encourage this mode of funding because it raises a lot of questions because as soon as community “A” knows that community “B” acquired or had their structures rehabilitated under that model, they will tend to be lazy and would sit back waiting for the Government to begin building on their behalf. We would like the communities to be involved in such projects.

Mr Chairman, hon. Members of the House can assist communities in their respective constituencies to access the BESSIP funds.

We have planned activities for the year 2002. In 2002, Mr Chairman, K350 billion has been planned to continue with access, quality and equity. And our specific areas of attention will be:

Construction of new classroom blocks. We hope to construct up to 1,123 classrooms, 858 new teachers houses. And that partly answers the question on what the Government is doing to try and improve the conditions of service for our teachers, specifically trying to answer the question of teachers' accommodation in rural areas.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: On rehabilitation, we intend to rehabilitate up to 510 classrooms and 458 houses. 

Mr Chairman, improvement of the quality of education is yet another concern, in this year’s BESSIP plan we intend to procure 4,379,525 pupils and teachers’ books and 560,000 units of stationary including material for the unsighted pupils.

Under school health and nutrition programme the following have been planned.

We intend to de-worm up to about thirty schools. This de-worming exercise will, perhaps, be given to rural areas because people here in town drink water, which is slightly better treated than those in the rural areas, where we do not have boreholes.

We intend to intensify school health and nutrition, community campaign and mobilise through production and distribution of instructional materials. We intend to launch a pilot school-feeding programme in one of the provinces. With the assistance from the World Food Programme, the food aid will serve as a dietary support for all children attending school, especially girls, orphans and other vulnerable children.

Mr Chairman, the programme involves provision of one wet ration to be consumed at school and one to take home. The World Food Programme will provide 11,367,000 tonnes of food to cater for 60,000 pupils per year. Mr Chairman, the issues of gender and equity in the education system are very cardinal to the success of the education programmes. The target under BESSIP is to reduce the gender gap between boys and girls by two per cent annually. In order to enhance equitable access to basic education, the Government under BESSIP will provide the following. School grants of K3 million per school.

Mr Chairman, if parents decide to fundraise with their consent and with the approval of the Provincial Education Officer and for a specific project, parents will determine how much they are able to contribute. But I must state that pupils who will fail to raise the amount of money demanded should not be excluded from school.

Sir, our basic education has for a long time comprised seven years of schooling. The National Education Policy of 1996 extended basic education to include two years of senior secondary education. Hon. Members may wish to know that great strides have been made in upgrading the existing schools to full basic schools with Grades 1 to 9. 

Mr Chairman, by 2001, out of 4,378 basic schools, 848 had been upgraded to fully basic school status. In order to improve on the teaching of science in these schools, 3000 mobile modern science kits have been produced and distributed and a diploma programme by distance learning to upgrade primary school teacher’s skills has been introduced. {mospagebreak}

Mr Chairman, I am trying to explain that we are trying to address the problem of good quality education in our schools. This task cannot be overcome within a day. We have a lot of teachers out there who wish to be retrained and upgraded. Currently our colleges cannot hold all these teachers and if we did that, we will not have teachers in schools to carry on with our educational programmes. We could only do so if we wanted to disrupt our normal school calendar.

Mr Chairman, on secondary education, I would like to say that secondary education is a corner stone for producing knowledgeable citizens who will contribute greatly to national development. It is a source of human resource necessary for labour market. Mr Chairman, it is important that we offer good quality secondary education to many of our children.

Mr Chairman, I want to outline achievements made in secondary education sector. Secondary school education has been offered in 250 regular high schools. To supplement these regular schools, we also had academic production unit classes. Furthermore, we also had open learning centres administered by the Department of Continuing Education. In addition, schools of continuing education offered courses to 1,265 students while the national Correspondence College offered distance learning to 365 students.

Mr Chairman, hon. Members will have noticed that there has not been any programme for expanding secondary education through the construction of new ones. Mr Chairman, most secondary schools we have today were constructed and opened immediately after independence. The majority of these schools are dilapidated and require massive rehabilitation. I am glad to report that the two National Technical High Schools, namely, David Kaunda in Lusaka and Hillcrest in Livingstone have been fully rehabilitated with the loan from the African Development Bank.

Mr Chairman, my Ministry had great expectations when funds to rehabilitate the above schools were included in the 2001 Budget under a special Budget line, the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative. I wish to report that works for all the schools were not completed in the 2001 period because funds were released late. However, the work is continuing and an additional 18 schools are earmarked for rehabilitation in 2002.

Mr Chairman, as secondary schools expansion has stagnated for a long time, there has been anxiety among communities to embark on self-help projects to construct more schools. Sir, you will recall that our overzealous brothers from the Eastern Province are turning tobacco shades into secondary schools. I hope you have the mandate from the Provincial Education Officer because unless we give you a green light, such structures are illegal. You cannot sacrifice standards and that is wrong initiative.


Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, most of our communities are poor, especially those under Hon. Dixon Zulu’s constituency. They cannot meet the minimum prescribed standards. Meanwhile there has been a multiplicity of such schools by communities throughout the country. I have evidence to that effect so, it is not only the General who is guilty. Even in Lumezi Constituency, I have been there and I have the information. Mr. Chairman, I request this House to appreciate the efforts our communities are making by supporting my ministry in an effort to source funds to help reconstruct these schools. So, we shall not close them but we shall reconstruct them. Do not go and begin constructing some.

Mr Chairman, the upgrading of primary school to basic school level, has contributed to creating more places at Grades 10 to 12. This is being done by phasing out Grades 8 and 9 from high schools.

Sir, we have planned activities. We intend to continue the rehabilitation programme of secondary schools and extend the same to eighteen new more from the provision of K3.8 billion as provided for in our budget. In addition, we intend to rehabilitate water and sanitation facilities in our schools. Along with this, we would like also to look at science laboratories and teachers’ houses.

To sum up, I wish to inform the House that this year, construction of two girls’ technical high schools in Ndola and Kapiri Mposhi will commence with the funds from the Oil Producing and Exporting Countries (OPEC) and the Arab Bank. In addition, funds have been sought from the World Bank loan to construct Kafumbwe and Lumezi Secondary Schools in Eastern Province …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: … which were abandoned in the late 1980s.

Mr Chairman, on distant education, Government is pressed with the increased demand for education while the mainstream of our education system cannot cope with this pressure. For this reason, we have to consider and plan to open new distant learning centres to cater for increasing number of students wishing to study through distant learning programmes.

Mr Chairman, most of the education programmes currently being offered through distant learning are confined to basic and secondary school levels. The Government intends to expand this kind of education to many citizens wishing to obtain specialised certificates, diplomas and degrees. This will entail strengthening of departments of distant education centres managed by the two universities.

Sir, at basic school level, the Interactive Radio Learning Programme enrolled over 2,000 children in 350 centres throughout this country.

Now, I would like to comment in passing and perhaps, give an answer to Hon. Captain Moono of Chilanga Constituency who wanted to know what would happen to all those pupils who were learning under that programme. Those pupils found themselves under the trees and under that programme because they could not find places in schools. One of the reasons was that PTA demanded fees before those pupils could be enrolled. Now, with the advent of these new policies, those children will be allowed to enter the regular schools. So, we are not going to throw away those pupils. The system was so rigid such that they were not allowed to go to normal or regular schools.

Mr Chairman, the nature of my ministry demands that I am given sufficient time to answer most of the pertinent questions raised by hon. Members of this House, unless they promise me that before I conclude, they will support the Vote of the ministry.

Sir, on teacher development and conditions of service, teacher shortages, especially in rural schools have continued to haunt the ministry. The traditional method of training the teachers cannot cope because of the high teacher attrition due to deaths, retirements and resignations. However, teacher education has been offered in the following institutions: we have ten primary school teacher training colleges with the capacity of 2,000 students per year. But because of the Zambia Teacher Education Course (ZATEC) programme, our teacher training colleges will turn out 4,000 teachers per year. 

Mr Chairman, we have two secondary school teacher training colleges, tutoring diploma level graduates to teach in junior secondary schools. We have two in-service teacher training colleges in Chalimbana and Lusaka College for teachers for the handicapped. The University of Zambia is producing teachers for senior secondary schools.

Sir, allow me to answer one or two questions raised by hon. Members of this august House. By arrangement, teachers holding diploma certificates from either Nkrumah, NRDC, Evelyn Hone College and COSECO are only mandated to teach Grade 8 and 9. Senior secondary school classes, ordinarily, are supposed to be handled by teachers from the University of Zambia or teachers with a higher diploma. Now, why are they found in our schools? Mr Chairman, the case is simple to understand. We do not have adequate stocks of well qualified teachers to handle pupils at senior level of our school education system.

Therefore, you can now understand why performance at Grade 12 is not very satisfactory and that is a reality. We are utilising teachers who are not supposed to handle senior classes because we have an acute shortage of teachers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why?

Mr Mulenga: Very good. Mr Chairman, I did explain that we have only two teacher training colleges for junior secondary school teachers. We have only one university to produce graduate teachers to handle senior classes in our high schools.

Mr Chairman, the Government has plans that in order to overcome the shortage of teachers in our schools, Kwame Nkrumah Teacher Training College must be upgraded to the status where it can offer degree programmes to our teachers. COSECO too, must be upgraded so that it can also award degree programmes to teachers who will come and sufficiently staff our existing secondary schools.

Mr Chairman, to such degree, we have a serious shortage of teachers because conditions of service and salaries, perhaps, are not very attractive to our teachers.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: So, to sum up, although I still have volumes and volumes …

Hon. Members: Go ahead, go ahead!

Mr Mulenga: … may I now come back and just highlight some points which you raised because as I have said, I must be time conscious.


Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, hon. Members will agree with me that constructing additional teacher training colleges will offer a lasting solution to our teacher shortage in our schools. However, as a short-term measure, I have already explained that the Government has advanced plans to even think of a third university …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mulenga: The former Presidents’ Citizenship College (PCC) which is now called the National College for Management Studies has the infrastructure ideal for …

Hon. Opposition Member: That was for KK.

Mr Mulenga: It does not matter who was there. Those are national assets

Mr Chairman, we have advanced plans to turn the former PCC into a third university. We believe that when that is done, we will be able to produce up to 1,000,000 extra teachers. Should we do that, we will expect that the existing stock of teachers will be beefed up. In that way, we might be able to meet the challenges of the shortage of teachers in our ministry.

With regard to teachers’ conditions of service, Sir, I would like to report to this House and the nation at large that the ministry has enjoyed harmonious relations with the three teachers’ unions. These unions are the Zambia National Union of Teachers (ZANUT), Primary Education Teachers’ Union of Zambia (PETUZ) and the Secondary School Teachers’ Union of Zambia (SESTUZ). The unions negotiated successfully with Government for salary increments and improved conditions of service. It is not true that at present in this country, any teacher from primary to secondary schools takes homes K60,000 as net pay.

Mr Chairman, if hon. Members want informed information, they are advised to check from the salary structures as supplied to them under the establishment of all the officers in the Republic of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, if you multiply K60,000 by twelve, this will give you an amount under K6 million per year. It is about K172,000 per annum.

Hon. Opposition Member: It is not that. It is K720,000.

Mr Mulenga: It is K720,000 per annum. You will excuse me because my area is not mathematics. I was too quick. So, it was not fair for the hon. Member to mislead the House and I do not know whether it was deliberate that he decided to mislead the House by releasing figures which were not correct.

May I also say that at present, a take home pay of a teacher is slightly over K300,000 and not K60,000. Please, refer to the salary scales supplied to you.

Mr Chairman, teachers will receive 20 per cent of their gross pay as rural hardship allowance. In addition, teachers normally get double class allowance when they are eligible.

Mr Chairman, the creation of boards is intended to improve efficiency in our schools and it is in line with Government policy of decentralisation. The creation of boards does not impede or does not actually deny Government access to operations in schools, rather it enables Government to fund schools and institutions directly. We are doing away with a lot of bottlenecks. So, the creation of boards is a move intended to improve on, perhaps, delivery of educational services.

Finally, each district in each constituency has a fleet of, at least, three good running vehicles. We do not see any reason why teachers should get their pay late. Teachers’ pay roll has been decentralised. Teachers do not need to come to Lusaka. Wages and salaries are being processed at provincial centres. Each District Education Officer has up to three good vehicles in good running condition. Therefore, need does not arise for late payments.

Equally and more importantly, in order for us to maintain and ensure that we have high standard of education. Each district has an Inspector of Schools called Standards Officer. These officers are mobile. Out of the three vehicles, one must be given to the inspector of school so that these inspectors can go round schools.

Mr Chairman, I can go on explaining but time does not allow.

Thank you, Sir.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Order! May I advise hon. Ministers. They should not open up discussions with back-benchers when they are on the Floor because by so doing, hon. Ministers will be engaged in question and answer session. Eventually, they will be derailed.

Vote 80/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/06 – (Ministry of Education – Curriculum Development Centre – K618,136,118).

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairman, on sub-head 1, item 01 – Salaries – K190,205,180, may I know why the amount has dropped from K198,499,000 to K190,205,180.

Mr Mulenga: Yes, Mr Chairman, there is a slight drop because some officers under the Curriculum Development Centre have been transferred to the ministry headquarters. So they are catered for under the ministry headquarters.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/08 – (Ministry of Education – Regional Headquarters – Lusaka Province – K2,825,014,599).

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, on sub-head 1, item 01 – Salaries – K2,318,790,000, may I know why there has been a significant increase in the line for salaries from K442,622,000.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, in July, there was a salary increment. So, the figures are justifiable from K422,622,000 last year to K2,318,790,000..

Mr Sichinga: But, five times?

Mr Mulenga: Yes, salaries went up almost by 95 per cent. I did mention, Mr Chairman, that we transferred some staff from CDC to regional headquarters. Some went to the national headquarters.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/10 – (Ministry of Education – Secondary Schools – Lusaka Province – K5,904,272,220).

Mr Badat (Mumbwa): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 3, item 01, sub-item 001 – Government Secondary School Boards – K889,274,000, why has the ministry given grants to Lusaka Province and not other provinces?

The Chairman: You wait. We are going to all provinces. When we are through with Lusaka Province, we will go to other provinces. All the provinces that we will be going through will be the same. Have patience. Patience is a virtue.

Vote 80/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/12 – (Ministry of Education – Regional Headquarters – Copperbelt Province – K3,687,017,894).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairman, on sub-head 1, item 01 – Salaries – K2,901,846,000, I seek clarification on Personal Emoluments. Does the increase here also relate to CDC staff being moved to the regional headquarters on the Copperbelt?
Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, the change is largely due to the new salary scales.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 80/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/16 – (Ministry of Education – Regional Headquarters – Central Province – K1,141,014,034).

Mr Lubinda: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it looks like the Government Bench is not comfortable with clarifications.


Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, on Vote 80/16 - Regional Headquarters – Central Province – K1, 141, 041 034, may I have clarification why they were awarded a bare 20 per cent increase as opposed to their colleagues on the Copperbelt and Lusaka provinces who were awarded more than 400 per cent.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, what determines how much people get is the number of employees …


VOTE 80/17 (Ministry of Education – Primary Schools).

Mr Badat (Mumbwa): Mr Chairman, I seek clarification from the hon. Minister of Education as to why there are no grants for primary and secondary school boards in Central province unlike other provinces which have been given grants.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, not all provinces are boards.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why?

Mr Mulenga: We have – it is a gradual process. We began with the Copperbelt Province …


Mr Mulenga: Why am I giving answers? We began with the Copperbelt Province and it has to be systematic and so far we have only about five provinces in the country, which are currently being manned by the educational boards.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: You are capable bamudala cilifye!

The Chairman: Order! I have repeatedly explained that some of the issues you are raising like the latest one should have been brought in the policy debate.


The Chairman: Order! When the Chair is on the feet, you just listen to the Chair.


The Chairman: Now, when we go to figures, you just ask for clarification and you refer to a specific number. Let us just make progress. I hope I have made myself clear and next time I am not going to listen to anything because you will just disrupt our progress.

Hon. Opposition Members: That is why you are there!

The Chairman: Order! I admit I am here but am I going to keep on explaining the same thing over and again?


The Chairman: Hon. Sichinga, for anything you do not understand is that my problem?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman: May I seek clarification …

Mr Chairman: Order! Hon. Sichinga, take your book.


Vote 80/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80/22 – (Ministry of Education – Secondary Schools – Northern Province – K4,373,975,410).

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, I would like the hon. Minister to kindly show me the establishment that is appearing in the Complement and Gradings of Posts in Ministries and Provinces together with what is appearing in the Budget. Can he, please, show me on which page because right now I am looking at the Northern Province and I cannot see those figures.

The Chairman: We are not dealing with establishment. We are dealing with the Budget.


The Chairman: Order! We are dealing with Vote 80/22. What item are you referring to?

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, I am referring to sub-head 1, item 01- Salaries – K221,000,000. I am relating the salaries that are being paid here to the establishment that is appearing in this other book. I would like to be shown where these are appearing so that I can connect the two.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Chairman, though I am not an accountant, what is reflected in the establishment are salary scales and not figures. In the Yellow Book we have figures. In the establishment, there are only salary scales.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Let us make progress. We are not dealing with the establishment. We are dealing with budgetary figures.

Vote 80/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 80/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 2156 hours until Wednesday, 27th March 2002.