Debates- Thursday 28th March, 2002

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Thursday, 28th March, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





The Vice President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I rise to seek your indulgence and that of the House that we defer the motion that I had proposed to some other date.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The Chair sees no objection to the request by His Honour the Vice-President. His request, therefore, is granted.


The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I would like to give the House some idea of the Business it will consider next week. On Tuesday, 2nd April, 2002, the business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House may wish to know that there are, at least, three Bills in the pipeline. The House will then continue with the consideration of this year’s Estimates of Expenditure, if we do not complete these today.

On Wednesday, 3rd April, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills. The House will then debate private Members’ motions, if there will be any. After that, if there will still be some Votes of expenditure on this year’s Estimates, the House will deal with them.

Sir, on Thursday, 4th April, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the Second Reading stages of the Bills that will have been presented the previous day.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 5th April, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. The House will then deal with all the remaining stages of the Bills before it. It is my intention on this day to move a motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders so as to enable the House to adjourn sine die.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!



VOTE 09/01 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Headquarters – K48,240,732,499).

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, this Vote has been deferred, I think, twice and brought back today, again, without any amendments from the Government. However, your Honour, you will find proposed amendments from me on two particular items. Your Honour, this is a matter of principle.

We have no objections against the former President receiving his benefits. What we object to, Your Honour, is that the law is very categorical about this issue that as long as a Former President remains in politics, he is not entitled to his benefits. The Front Bench, in particular, is aware of that, including the hon. Learned Minister of Legal Affairs. So, why bring this Vote and this particular item in the Yellow Book knowing very well that the head of the MMD continues to be the former President?

So, that is the issue before us. Your Honour, there is a proposed amendment on this particular page on Capital Expenditure - Vote 005. We have here proposed that K1 billion should be reduced to K500 million and it shall remain so. I hope that all my colleagues will support this amendment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Chairman, I rise to support this very important suggestion made by the son of the City of Lusaka, Hon. Dipak Patel.


Mr Sibetta: Yes, he is ‘chief’ Bauleni, if you do not know!


Mr Sibetta: I am one of the former UNIP Ministers. Sir, our Ministers and governors, including our former President, Dr Kaunda, the first President of this country, were not paid our terminal benefits because this Government passed a law in this House not to pay us. I am one of those whose terminal benefits were not paid by this MMD Government.

Mr Situmbeko: Even myself.

Mr Sibetta: I am not here to support paying the terminal benefits of former President, Mr Chiluba.


Mr Sibetta: I am, therefore, endorsing this very important milestone amendment by the son of the city in the name of Dipak Patel. We are not going to allow this House to approve a payment of a construction of a house for a man who has not retired because the law he passed to stop Kaunda does not allow payment of terminal benefits to a man who is still in office.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Chairman, I merely rise to confirm that I am one of those former UNIP leaders who were not paid their terminal benefits because when the MMD Government …

Mr Sibetta: Mr Kasonde was Minister of Finance.

Mr Shepande: … came into power, they moved a Bill, in this House. I, therefore, wish to support the amendment in toto.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko (Senanga): Sir, I also endorse what my friends have said. I am one of the victims who were not paid their dues when I ceased to be a governor. I was in this House on the left hand of the Chairman when we debated about the benefits of Dr Kaunda. My brother, Dr Ludwig Sondashi, was also there. We were the people who defended Dr Kaunda that he should not be denied his rights to have his benefits paid to him, but the leader of the House was one of the people who stood here very strongly to say that Kaunda would never receive his benefits until he retired from active politics. I rose up and said that whatever laws they were making against Dr Kaunda would also affect Chiluba. Today, Chiluba has been caught in the spider’s web.

Now, why should you come up to say that Chiluba should have his benefits before retiring? The law does not discriminate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko: The law must be followed so that you can know that you are not supposed to bring archaic laws in this House just because they concern some person or an individual. Remember that whatever law you make, you are making it for yourself because tomorrow, it is you who is going to be President.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Chairman, I rise to contribute to the Vote on the Floor. I would like to take this House back to my maiden speech where I indicated in this House that when you make intentions that are not noble, then just know that around the corner, there is natural justice waiting for you.

Sir, if you make laws for somebody you dislike, just be aware that that law is literary made for yourself and at the end of the day it will hack you, the implementor of that particular law. So, this is a very good lesson to those of us who are privileged to formulate laws, that if our intentions are not Christian, as we claim this country to be a Christian nation, then, I think we are heading for destruction.

Sir, laws should be made to protect all of us at any given time. We have always said that we are not against the Government of the day but let us standardise our living standards. Let us standardise our rules of existence so that at the end of the day, it does not matter whether it is John Ng’uni or Chitalu Sampa, my grand father, who is supposed to be protected by law. It does not matter where you come from, but if you implement laws specifically for certain people, our creator is hovering over us and he will make sure he protects those who are in weak positions. 

Sir, when we insist that laws should be followed, we are following on what the President of this country said that we are not going to be guided by wise men, but rule of law. Therefore, laws should prevail. 

Now, if there is a law that says that a particular person cannot be paid benefits because he is still in active polities, it should apply to everyone of us, we are all one people. 

I thank you, very much.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: If the message is one and the same, I think this side (Opposition) has made a milestone. I hope amongst those who are standing, someone has a different view.

Hon. Opposition Members: It is the same!

The Chairman: It is the same.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Sir, it is not a contrary view.

The Chairman: Order! What is your name?

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Chairman, I just wanted to give my side to the story. I have not studied law. I am a layman. I want to pick out one of the aspects of law which inspires me to speak on this motion. That piece of law states that those who want equity before law should do so with clean hands. As you may be ware, Mr Chairman, hands are a tool of production and I know that the former Head of State who is a subject of discussion here does not have clean hands so that he cannot go to the law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haakaloba: He can only explain the questions that we have about the many issues that have arisen since he gave up or since he left State House.

Some of these issues are so serious that our own children are condemned to death with hunger by his actions. Mr Chairman, my main point here is that the former Head of State, in our view, does not have clean hands. I, therefore, support the motion that he should not receive terminal benefits or whatever may be due to him until he actually retires and we have proof that he has retired, like was the case with Kaunda.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haakaloba: In conclusion, Mr Chairman, it is therefore, our desire that this man can only come to the law when his hands are swept completely clean.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for North-Western Province (Mr Mushala): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much. Mr Chairman, this House is very respectable and the Zambian people have given us that respect. We are held in high esteem, that is why we make the laws for this country. I support the view that when we have made laws, those laws must be respected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, these laws are not personalised but I am surprised that the debate going on in this House has changed its direction. It has been personalised, which is very unfortunate.

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Mushala: Hon. Sibetta, Hon. Situmbeko and my brother, Hon. Shepande, are still aggrieved by what happened. If we rule this country by expressing grief, Mr Chairman, we will put this country on fire. Is that what the Zambians elected us for that we should come here and put this country on fire?

Hon. Opposition Members: No! What fire?


Mr Mushala: All of us here, Mr Chairman, are aggrieved one time or another in life. 

The Chairman: Order! When you, the opposition, were talking, the right side of the House were quiet. Therefore, I expect the same to prevail this side.

Will the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Mushala: I thank you, Mr Chairman. 

Sir, I am a person who believes that we have to move forward. I am one of those who did not debate or support that the first former President Kaunda should not be paid his benefits. For your information, Mr Chairman, the former President, Dr Kaunda, detained me for years when I was eighteen years of age.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!


Hon. Opposition Members: Why?


Mr Mushala: During that time of five years, my life was wasted. If we go on the path of …

The Chairman: Order! You have just stated that we should not personalise debates.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: If you are against this amendment, give your reasons. However, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Chairman: … if you are in favour of this amendment, support it and sit down.

Will you, please, continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Situmbeko: Long live the Chair!

The Chairman: Order!

Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, I thank you. I was just saying that we must move forward because I do believe that two wrongs never make a right. What I have not heard in this House, today, is that Dr Chiluba, who is a subject and a former President, who is believed to be in politics, is going to retire just like the other former President did.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, when is he going to retire?


Mr Mushala: For the information of this House, I am a Member of the MMD National Executive Committee. The former President has retired.

Hon. Opposition Members: No! When?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: Now, what I want to know is this, if, today, we amend this Vote, - and as I have already told you he has retired, what are we going to do from next month up to the end of the year?

Hon. Opposition members: No!

Mr Mushala: My proposal in supporting this Vote is that we should support this Vote …

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Mushala: Listen to my thoughts and advice. Let us support this Vote. If Dr Chiluba does not retire, when the construction of the House comes up or when we reach that stage, we will know what to do. 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mushala: We have so many laws, we can put an injunction.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mushala: I think that is a logical way of doing things.

Hon. Government Members : Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mushala: I am giving a proposal because, Mr Chairman, they did not explain what will happen six months from now when Chiluba is no longer in politics. How do we look after him?


Mr Mushala: So, Mr Chairman, I recommend that the Vote remains as it is.

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: Mr Chairman, I support the Vote.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: The bone of contention on this Vote is the terminal benefits for the retired President. We need somebody in authority to state the present political position surrounding the former President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: To this effect, I ask His Honour the Vice-President to make his stand known.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Situmbeko: Long live the Chair!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, in October 2001, the NEC of the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) adopted Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., as its candidate for the elections that were held on 27th December, 2001. He, consequently, emerged victorious.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question! {mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: A day later or so, the former President, Dr Frederick Chiluba, was at the High Court of Zambia to hand over the tools of power to Mr Mwanawasa. On that day, Mr Chiluba ceased being President of the Republic of Zambia.

On the 9th of March 2002, the National Executive Committee of the MMD met. At that meeting, Dr Chiluba announced his stepping down from the presidency of the MMD. Members of the NEC, however, felt that he needed to stay on for a little while to arrange a proper handing over to whoever was to succeed him. 

Last Saturday, the NEC met and by virtue of our Constitution, Mr Chiluba was invited to that meeting but he stated that he had stepped down from the Presidency of the party MMD. A meeting was held at which an acting President had to be nominated. According to our constitution, the Vice-President of the party would have automatically taken over the presidency but it was found that in the interest of party unity and to avoid divided loyalties, the person who had become Republican President was the most suitable person. The Vice-President of our party stated that he was not coerced out of it but looked at the interests of the organisation and, indeed, offered himself to stand back and let another person take over.

Mr Chairman, again, in our Constitution, the national chairman of the party would normally take over in the event that both the President and the Vice-President are not available. Our Chairman too stated that he was not available to take over the presidency and, so, the presidency of our party is, now, firmly in the hands of the Republican President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: No!


The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I am very surprised. That decision was arrived at in accordance with our own constitution and so, I do not see how members of another party will tell us what to do.

Mr Hachipuka: We just want the truth.

The Vice-President: We just followed our constitution. I, therefore, wish to state that Dr Fredrick Chiluba is no longer President of the MMD. Because he has retired, he is entitled to all his benefits.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I am very surprised that people who worked in the Second Republic can come up today and complain about their benefits. I have received several letters myself from those who worked in the Second Republic asking for a reinstatement of a law that was repealed in this House.

Mr Chairman, as far as the issues being debated today are concerned, they do not affect those who worked in UNIP. That is another matter which can be discussed if they so wish. I will be happy to bring it back to this House because this request is coming from many people. One of them has written me a twenty-four paged letter stating that Dr Kaunda did not work alone as President of Zambia. From 1959, he worked with others. Now, why is it that the others are left languishing and we are only looking after Dr Kaunda? It makes sense, indeed, that a few of those …

Mr Tetamashimba: Just declare interest.

The Vice-President: … should have been looked after. I do not need those benefits.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Yesterday, it was brought to our attention by the hon. Member for Katuba (Mr Shakafuswa) that when that law was enacted by this House, some pieces of land in his constituency were shared amongst cadres of UNIP.

Mr Shakafuswa: I said MMD and not UNIP.

The Vice President: That never materialised. So, if it is their wish to bring up that matter, I will very happy to look at that and bring it to the House to reinstate the law which was there. It talked about them being given six hoes, a plough and things like that. 


The Vice-President: But for now, the vindictiveness and bitterness baffle me. How can people, who were friends barely a few months ago, suddenly hate so much?

Mr Situmbeko: You are missing the point, there is no hatred, we just want to follow the law.

The Vice-President: I am very surprised.


The Vice-President: You want us to take Dr Chiluba to Mr Patel’s house saying this is Dr Chiluba and he has retired? That cannot happen. I can only come here to inform the House that as far as the MMD is concerned, Dr Chiluba has retired.

Mr Situmbeko: Bring the letter of retirement.

The Vice President: Sir, I wish to urge the House to avoid hatred because it is not a good thing. What we need is reconciliation. With those remarks, I think that I have clarified the issue of Dr Chiluba’s retirement.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


The Chairman: Order! This is a matter of procedure. The opposition side spoke, the Government side did not want to speak and I had to ask His Honour the Vice President to wind up debate. So, now, we go to figures.


Mr Hachipuka: Which figures?

The Chairman: Order! This is a matter of procedure.


The Chairman: What His Honour the Vice-President has done is what you were asking for. He has categorically told you that, now, the President is wearing two tags, one, as President of MMD and two, as the Republican President.


The Chairman: Order! One thing which is good in this House is that we have lawyers on both sides. If they can bring the Bills and state to us the Act that states that for somebody to be construed as having retired from active politics, we must have a convention.


Mr Chisala: Progress!

The Chairman: Let us make progress.

VOTE 08/01 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Headquarters – K51,020,909,942).

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Chairman, I would like clarification on sub-head 1, item 01, Salaries – K1,074,410,984, is this amount catering for the two former Presidents or for one? If so, in what proportions?

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, Head 08/01, Cabinet Office, Headquarters, this amount of K1,074,410,984 does not involve any of the two former Presidents. These are salaries for headquarters.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, on sub-head 5, item 02, sub-item 005 – Construction of Former Presidents Houses – K1,000,000,000, is this amount for one former President or two past Presidents?

Hon. Opposition Members: There is an amendment on that one.


The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, this amount is meant for two houses.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, these amendments are all targeted at the former President, Dr Chiluba.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Chairman: Now, we have been given the clear picture.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Chairman: The former President, Dr Chiluba, is no longer in active politics.


The Chairman: Order! What is this amendment for? Will you Table it and give reasons?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on sub-head 5 – Capital Expenditure, sub-item 005 – Construction of Former President’s Houses by the deletion of “1,000,000,000,” and the substitution therefor of “500,000,000”; and the Functional Total, under the “2002 Estimates” by the deletion of “48,240,732,499” and the substitution therefor of “47,740,732,499”.

The Chairman: Unless somebody tells me something different from what I am going to say, my understanding is that all these amendments are centred on the former President, Dr Chiluba. Am I right?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

The Chairman: If that be the case, following what the Vice-President has stated here …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Sibetta interjected.

The Chairman: I am talking. Hon. Zimba, will you ask Mr Sibetta to have fresh air outside, please.

I was in this House when this Law was made about payments to former Presidents. I am in a dilemma, I want to do the right thing but there is some expressions from the opposition side that for you to believe that Dr Chiluba is out of politics, a convention must be held …


The Chairman: You are disputing what the Vice-President has said. You do not believe him and for this reason, I am asking lawyers from both sides to go and meet and come up with a solution to this problem. I suspend this motion until next week. Let us move on to another Head.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Long Live the Chair!

VOTE 76/01 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Headquarters – K14,352,391,685).

The Chairman: Any policy debate?

Mr Sibetta indicated to debate.

The Chairman: I asked you to go out and have some fresh air then come back. Go out!


The Chairman: Why did you not take him outside? (pointing at Mr Zimba). Take him out. The two of you should go out.


Mr Zimba dragged Mr Sibetta out of the Chamber.


Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Thank you, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important Vote.

Mr Chairman, looking at the Votes given under this ministry, I feel they are quite inadequate, in particular, the Football Association of Zambia’s allocation of K2 billion.

Recently, Sir, I read in the newspaper that for our team to have gone out, they were given K2 billion on a single trip. How are we going to manage for the rest of the year with this meagre allocation?

Mr Chairman, my proposal, therefore, is that in order to bring glory, which we have lost, to this country, - the last ten years have seen our sport declining and we have not been able to bring any trophies to this country - our allocations and financial support to sport must be increased.

In addition to that, Sir, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister, through you, that one of the problems in this country is over politicisation of our sport. There is so much interference from the political arena. This transcends across the entire spectrum of sport. If you recall, Mr Chairman, we scored victories across the continent and we even, for many years, had done very well in World Cup competitions. We did very well in African competitions and on various other sports across the country. But, since the advent of the MMD, we have seen a decline. This must be arrested. Mr Chairman, the supervision relating to the leadership of FAZ has got to be revisited.

I would like to propose, Sir, that the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development should re-look at this. My suggestion is that we should probably pull out of international sport, maybe, for a year, two or three so that we can re-organise. There is a lot of talent in the schools which we have not been able to tap. We pick our friends and relatives from the streets and want them to play soccer or squash and think they can compete. We do not build sport. We do not even have adequate facilities for training. So, I would like to propose that the hon. Minister and, indeed, the MMD Government must consider pulling out of most of the international sporting competitions with a view that we must regroup our troops and get young people involved. We should be able to identify talent and build it from the beginning so that we can bring glory to this country. The way we are going now, we are at the bottom of everything. We should look at sport and everything else. Zambia is at its lowest. We are the poorest country and we are always at the bottom of everything. I think I believe in the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development’s leadership and that he will be able to tell the MMD Government that they must begin afresh. Do not continue from where this ten year MMD rule has left off.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Thank you very much, Sir, for according me this opportunity to support this Vote.

I think our standards of soccer have gone very low. There is an urgent need for all stakeholders to reflect on what has gone wrong. We cannot afford to continue losing to nations that have learnt soccer from us. The reason for this is merely psychological. I think our players are psychologically still affected by the Gabon disaster. There is need for the Government to come up with a clear position on what happened to our soccer team so that the minds of our players are cleared of that incident. There are conflicting reports. When you do not release an official report, then you give room to rumours. Some people say the they were shot at and others claim the aircraft was a wreck. Now, we do not know which one is correct. There is no security about an accident. I do realise a military aircraft was involved. But this is not reason enough to deny us information about what happened to our brothers, friends and fathers.

There is need, first and foremost, to be more realistic and down to earth. Suppose these players were your relatives, were you going to keep on hiding the facts? Unless we clear the air, our players, as they fly out, will be scared and by the time they arrive there, they are all sick like what happened in Mali. That aspect has to be looked at. If we want quality soccer, we have to invest in it.

We have to look at our football fields. We do watch soccer on television. We have seen the stadia our friends use. Our soccer is being played in potholes like the road going to Mumbwa or Mongu. There are no good football pitches. Therefore, even the level of our training is sub-standard. Even if you bring an experienced coach and you do not provide facilities for him to execute duties, he will not perform. Thank God, Zambians are naturally talented football players. Otherwise, we would not even be able to kick a ball one metre because our football pitches are pathetic. 

Football is a talent. No matter how you train some people, they will never kick the ball properly. This is an in-born character. It should be looked for. Scouts should involve everybody so that the selection of soccer is done across the country. For example, Nigeria is a big country and they have an interest in football. Those players do not come from one province. They come from different sections of that country. What is wrong with Zambia? Why can we not mobilise our own resources? We have the footballers in Mongu, but we cannot get them. We have footballers even in my Chilanga Constituency, but you cannot get them because you keep on regionalising football. To be in the national team, you have to bribe the coach. That is wrong.

Mr Chairman, the hon. Minister has come up with a new policy on football. Since it is a new deal, we have to start afresh. I am not for the idea that when you get defeated, you disband the team.

I am for the idea of re-organising, re-focussing and showing a bit of seriousness in your programmes. Your past mistakes should be your lessons for the future. Soccer keeps us together. When there is a soccer match, there is no Front Bench and back-bencher. We are all soccer fans. We are able to mix properly. Therefore, soccer should be encouraged to continue. If we disband, it will be a sign of giving up and it will be difficult to re-organise ourselves because if you do not practise sport, then you cannot be perfect. I hope the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development will take these words very seriously.

Zambians are fed up of losing. That is why these days, each time we lose a game at the Independence Stadium, there is a riot. People break motor vehicles and so forth. Do not blame them. Next time, we shall mark the vehicles for all those …

Mr Shumina: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shumina: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member in order to advertise irresponsibility in the nation?


The Chairman: Hon. Shumina, you can excuse him. When you have raised a point of order which I have allowed and I have stood up to make a ruling, and then he stands up to continue debating, he needs to be advised. When a point of order is raised and I accept it, do not stand up until I give you the Floor again.

Now, the point of order raised on you is that you are agitating the people to riot when there is a football match. That should not come from the mouth of a person who is carrying the tag ‘honourable’. You are distancing yourself from the state of civilisation and the norm of good living. You, as a leader, must preach love and forgiveness. I hope I have said enough. 

Will you, continue, please.

Captain Moono: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I think the point of order was a bit too quick. I was saying that the vehicles which will be damaged during riot should be identified so that they are …

The Chairman: Order! Go to another point. We heard you.

Captain Moono: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I think I will proceed and if that is the meaning my friend got, I withdraw that statement.

Mr Chairman, I was saying that our soccer standards have gone low and there is need to be a bit serious to go to the drawing table and re-organise our football. There are some countries that have gone through what Zambia is going through now. Their football went down. I remember one time we played Cameroon. We scored them 5-0.

Hon. Government Members: 4-0.

Captain Moono: Four goals to zero. Thank you for the correction. This time, you cannot even attempt to play Cameroon. What have they done to become a strong nation? Can we not learn from them? 

Hon. Government Members: The economy is good.

Captain Moono: Some are saying it is the economy of Cameroon. If it is the economy, please, put the economy in our soccer so that it improves. Fund and give soccer more resources. The idea of hiring a coach for one week means there will be no continuity. We should be able to pay heavily for our soccer if the quality has to be enhanced.

Thank you very much, Sir.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Sikatana): Mr Chairman, some of us that have survived in sport from the federal days, I do remember being in the same team with the late Yotam Muleya. If you taught me athletics, football, lawn tennis, and so on, I would beat you. We were able to perform well because, at least, we had a full stomach. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Which legs were you using?


Mr Sikatana: These.


Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairman, Hon. Hachipuka will bear with me. He remembers how the ZCCM organised sport on the Copperbelt. Could you ever think you could come with a weak team? I remember going for the federal lawn tennis championships in Luanshya and Stan Smith, who was in charge of sport saw that the midlands team was really clicking. What did he do? He gave us lunch iya munani. The Bemba people called it umunani that day. We were just given green leaves. When I arrived on the pitch, I could not see the ball.


Mr Sikatana: You cannot expect sport to improve in this country when the economy is what it is today. We should not blame tribalism and regionalism, let us look at facts. I watch provincial teams from primary and secondary schools. I do not miss those, including my team from Western Province. Fortunately, for me, I was trained on hard ground where the ball bounces. But those that were trained on a sandy pitch do not expect the ball to bounce. So, as it hits the ground, you expect it to land there and then you just see it roll on.


Mr Sikatana: Now the spirit of a sportsman is the key. When I was a goal keeper, it did not matter who you served. My nephew, Sibetta, will tell you.


Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairman, what am I trying to say? Let us improve our economy. I remember the Governor, Arthur Benson, was guest of honour and we had an inter-college competition and it was a penalty kick, I leaned on the pole and the referee said, ‘Stand in the middle’. I said, no. I had given him the whole goal-mouth, and the player kicked a penalty. Instead of using this wide mouth, he aimed at me.


Mr Sikatana: He hit and I just took out one hand. 


Mr Sikatana: We remember ‘Zoom’, with nostalgia, and Kachifita from Roan United. The boys went on the pitch with full tummies and they knew what perks lay ahead of them.

Mr Nzowa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives in order to start telling bed time stories in the House? We want to contribute.

The Chairman: Will the hon. Minister, continue, please.

Mr Sikatana: All I am saying, Mr Chairman, is that the answer lies in us supporting sports. We do not support sport at the moment. There were those of us who belonged to City ya Moto and would say that, ‘Give me two or three players, I will be paying them’. Whether they played or not, they were paid a monthly salary and we would go to watch them, every morning, practising.

That spirit is gone. People are no longer supporting sport.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikatana: There are companies that earn billions of kwacha in this country. What do they use these billions for? They buy foreign exchange and go away. They do not support sport.

Finally, Sir, when you compare yourself to Cameroon and Nigeria, you should see what is on the ground there. Look at these boys that go there with basketball jerseys, you watch your game on television.  I do not know whether it is the cameramen to blame or the players. You see the biggest difference. There is no soccer nor sport here. I can beat the high jumpers today. 


Mr Sikatana: Oh yes! In pivot, today, if I go onto the pitch, I will still beat you. Do not be misled by this. 

Mr Sikatana pointed at his grey hair.

What I am saying is that hon. Members of Parliament should go to their constituencies carrying kits. You go and encourage these boys and girls, carry footballs, netballs and rackets. Can you imagine I introduced lawn tennis in the Southern Province? I remember being beaten in Luanshya. I was thinking the ball was going this way when not. Finally, I realised that the ball was going that way, I threw my racket and when it hit the racked, the ball went back that side. The spirit there was that you could not defeat me. Now, that spirit was because we were supported. The late Mudenda …

Hon. Opposition Member:  Dr Kaunda

Mr Sikatana: Not ba mudala. 

Mr Sikatana: The late Mudenda, my headmaster, would say today my salary is going to the boys. Sidney Chella, Swift Sinyangwe, boys you knew, would tell you that we are winning. But today, Mr Chairman, how many of us, Members of Parliament, are running clubs in their constituencies? Nil. How many of us go to see the boys training? You just want to blame them. When you see Zambia losing, it is not because of the Gabon disaster. You should have seen the spirit after the Gabon disaster. The boys were charged, the emotions were whipped up. 

When Kalusha came, did we lose the game then? But when you tell them to go on one meal a day, and you want to play football, you are joking.

Finally, let us agree. What do we contribute as leaders to our national team? Yes, I want to see somebody that will say, out of my earnings, I want to contribute so much to the national team. That is how it started with Brazil. But today, if you want to blame provincialism, you are joking; do not introduce divisive debates because this country is one. 

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Sikatana:  Let us not try to gain advantage over our own weaknesses. The Tongas know well that they gave us a national player. Solwezi gave us national players. We have seen national players from every province. It is talent bwana.

If you put ghosts on the pitch, especially those of you who still believe in charms, you will not win. To insist that there must be a Lozi in the national team when we have nobody is wrong. We had Muyambango, you remember! He was a player of national standard. If we divide11 by 9 provinces, so that there should be two players from each province, whom do you bring from Namwala? 


Mr Sikatana: Probably, you will put my nephew, Mr Sibetta.


Mr Sikatana: So, I urge hon. Members to join me. Let us join forces. I go to FAZ every so often. If they have no diesel, I give them a full tank. We want that spirit. Otherwise, tomorrow, do not blame your tribe.

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya): I thank you, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to also add my voice to the debate that is on the Floor. I realise that most of the speakers dwelt so much on football. Maybe, it is because they are men. But I want to move away a little bit from football per se, Mr Chairman. I have a few observations that I would like to share with this august House. Our nation has a lot of children that are out of school. These children are not able to do anything, maybe, it is because most of them have lost their parents through the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Most of them have found themselves in the streets simply because, maybe, they did not finish their education. 

Mr Chairman, when we talk about sport, youth and child development, let us, first of all, look at the problems that our young children are facing. If you are a nation that has produced so many children and no colleges have been able to take them on or, maybe, teach them in any trade, the result is the high rate of crime and prostitution. 

Mr Chairman, I want to reflect back to a couple of yeas ago when I was a young girl myself. There used to be welfare centres where most of us went to play learn a little bit of art. There were homecraft centres, Mr Chairman. Today, none of them is in existence. And these welfare and homecraft centers were able to take all these children who were not able to continue with their education. At least, they were taught one thing or so, which would enable them to do something for themselves, but that is not the case now, Mr Chairman. 

So, I urge our Government, through the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, to revisit the construction of these welfare centres which will enable us to impart some knowledge on our children and that way we will be able to cater for most of these children who are just roaming the streets. Just yesterday morning, Mr Chairman, I decided to take a walk and I found so many of these young boys and girls in the streets.  Each time they saw a vehicle parking, they would run to it and they would be asking for money. I think we all know where this problem has generated from. Their parents are not able to look after them. 

If each one of us would take this upon ourselves and then, maybe, got one child and asked them where the parents were, most of them would tell you that ‘my parent are not there, they are dead’. But that is not true. This has emanated from their parents who cannot do anything about it, these young boys and girls will start begging from the streets at very tender ages. They fight and do all sorts of things, they use any type of abusive language amongst themselves. By the time they are 11 or 12 years old, they are hardcore criminals as they tend to be car thieves, murderers and so on.

So, I urge the hon. Minister to take note of this serious social problem and see how we are going to take these children away from the streets. 

Mr Chairman, I alluded to the fact of having a very high unemployment rate. I think all of us know very well that without formal employment in our country, there is no way we are going to curb crime and all these children will definitely come back to us, knocking on our doors and they are a threat to our lives. 

Mr Chairman, I speak here as a lay person who has just come into Parliament. I am a new Member and I am made to believe that …

Mr Tetamashimba interjected.

Miss Sialumba: Thank you my brother. Every year, each constituency is given K10 million as funds for the youths but I stand as a very disappointed mother and woman who is coming from a rural constituency where none of the children has any access to this money. The constituency that I come from, Sir, is a rural one (Mapatizya) in the Southern Province. We have a lot of good wood so that if this K10 million was given to the intended persons, I am sure we would be able to earn the much wanted and needed income, but that is not happening and this is very sad.

We heard, a couple of days ago, that some of these monies ended up somewhere. I am begging the hon. Minister, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, that these monies should get to the intended persons so that we will be able to equip our children and teach them a trade of some kind. It does not mean that if one has not been to school, then they become irrelevant to the nation. There are some people, who have never been to school, that have become millionaires because somebody assisted them in one way or another by teaching them a trade. That is how they managed to be on their own.

Let me say something, again, regarding the recreation aspect. We have most of our children roaming the streets, as I stated earlier on. Why can we not find or build places where they will be able to go and play and also learn with others? We have a lot of children that are out in the streets smoking dagga and sniffing petrol simply because there is nothing else that they can do. They have dropped out of schools, maybe, because they are orphans in one way or another or they had nobody to pay the fees for them. But if we would take them into these smaller homes and units, we will, at least, create some room for them to change. We are all adults and soon will be no more. What type of Zambian society are we going to leave if we have these children that will not be cared for and really be able to stand up and say here I am, I want to be counted as a Zambian.

Mr Chairman, I do believe that some of our girls have started playing football and I think they need a lot of support also in that field. Let us encourage them by allowing them to play and join their colleagues.

Finally, Sir, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to spread his wings to my area. It is very remote but I have a lot of talented pupils. It is only that there is nobody who has been there to look at them and evaluate them.

Mr Chairman, I thank you. {mospagebreak}

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina (Nalolo): Mr Chairman, when we talk about the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, I think, most times, we think about football only. It is high time we took into consideration all the children of this country. It makes me very sad to see that the budget for this ministry is rather small. It is a pity because the children cannot be here to lobby for themselves, …

Mr Sichilima: Help!

Mrs Wina: … so, it is our obligation to lobby on their behalf.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Wina: We have a moral obligation to the children of Zambia and of late, I think you can open every paper and there is violence against children, particularly girls. They are abused, raped, violated and as parents, we should feel ashamed because these crimes are perpetrated by older people who should be the protectors of the children they abuse.
It has been said, several times, that stiff penalties should be called for to punish those who abuse little children. I know that this issue should have been, perhaps, tackled by the Ministry of Community Development and Social Welfare but I believe the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development has an obligation also to build the moral fibre of the children. I cannot see how this can be done without enhanced support to this ministry.

Mr Chairman, over 750 children in Zambia are orphaned. What are we doing for them as adults to make them grow into useful citizens? What activities are we introducing to make them occupied so that they become part of the sporting activities of this country? We have hordes and hordes of street children, what are we doing? Which activities are we engaging them in so that they become productive as well? I think that a lot more should be done for the children of Zambia and those in the rural constituencies. We are hardly in touch or receive any help from the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development in my constituency except, perhaps, in one or two schools. So, a deliberate effort should be made by the ministry to reach the rural youth and engage them in activities that will help them.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Kakoma (Kalabo): Mr Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate. When we talk about sports in our country, I think, it is sheer waste of time. We are not serious about getting recognised in the world as a sporting nation.

Mr Chairman, for the past 37 years, if we look at the equipment and structures that we have in our country, we cannot compete anywhere in this world. If we look at our airport, it cannot actually contribute or give us any revenue. When we talk of sport, we expect to be bringing in people from other countries to play football. The country would earn a lot of money that way. In Zambia, we wrongly think that sport is just someone talented playing football and going without anything. Football in other countries is big business. For instance, Kalusha Bwalya is doing much better than those who remained playing football in the country.

Mr Chairman, sport is necessary for our children to be healthy and contribute to the nation. 

With the poor stadia we have, actually, there is no way Zambia will ever host a tournament. Even nearby countries, like Zimbabwe, have a beautiful stadium and we Zambians do flock there. That is the time when that country makes a lot of money. Here, we have to wait for centuries for another eclipse in order to earn money from tourists.

Mr Chairman, for ten years now, the MMD Government has been off-loading children throughout the country.


Miss Kakoma: I am speaking like this because I am a mother and I produce for this country. I bring up children in this world and in the end, they are just sent back to me so that I can feed them.

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Mr Chairman.


The Chairman: Order! A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: The hon. Member for Kalabo, who is debating so well, is perplexing us, Mr Chairman. Would she be in order to say that the MMD is off-loading children all over? Is it only the MMD members in this country who have children and not UPND, UNIP and other parties? I need your very serious ruling, Sir.


The Chairman: That statement from the heart of a woman has been taken quite seriously. She is indirectly appealing to the MMD Government to do something about the street kids and also if men can refrain from having children out of wedlock. 


The Chairman: That statement can mean a lot. Will she, please, continue.

Miss Kakoma: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for protecting me. Long live the Chair!

I meant off-loading the children from education. We have children who have failed to go further in their education. We do not have many jobs in this country. I can even touch on the Anti-Corruption Commission because I did not contribute to the debate on that Vote. With less jobs, we will never fight corruption. We have so many children around who have no jobs. I see no way that the New Deal Government will go ahead and, actually, root out corruption. With more jobs, there will be no corruption because, now, we are fighting for the same few jobs in this country. I am appealing to the Government to look into that.

Thank you very much, Sir. 

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairman, I am not too sure whether I should support this Vote or not. First of all, Sir, like others have said, the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development seems to emphasise the Department of Sport more than other departments under it. I think that ought to change.

Secondly, Mr Chairman, even on the matter of sport, which is given so much prominence, it is only soccer. What has happened to the other disciplines, Mr Chairman? It seems they have been thrown out in the doldrums. However, even soccer, a lot of hon. Members here have talked about how dismally this country is performing in that area and alluded to the lack of infrastructure and so on. My contention, Mr Chairman, is that one of the major contributing factors to the destruction of sport in this country is, firstly, the high politicisation of sport. You can just look at the way the National Sports Council of Zambia is administered.

Mr Chairman, the National Sports Council of Zambia, in its administration of football, does not even allow communities to participate in sport without them being affiliated and controlled by it. Mr Chairman, the administration of sport is not Government’s business. That is the business of communities. For as long as the Government, through the National Sports Council, does not empower communities and NGOs to organise talent, we shall continue coming to this House, every year, to complain about the dismal performance of this country in sport.

Mr Chairman, I am saying this because I, myself, have been involved in community sport administration and I am proud to say, Mr Chairman, that in the last five years, if there is any glory that this country has had through sport, it has been through youth sport. You will recall, Mr Chairman, that Chawama Youth Team, Kabwata Youth Team and Chilenje Youth Team are the only teams that are known in this country to have brought trophies which are, now, hanging in high offices as a source of pride and yet those teams, Mr Chairman, are organised by communities.

I have in mind two very important NGOs that are working so hard to develop sport, EduSport and Sport in Action. Mr Chairman, three weeks ago, the two organisations, including the Government-owned Sports-for-All, were supposed to have had an agreement signed by the National Sports Council of Zambia, entailing that each one of them gets a grant of K40 million.  Purely because these NGOs refused to be subdued and become part of the National Sports Council of Zambia, that money went begging in a country that has only K14 billion to run the whole ministry. It is a shame, Mr Chairman, and I think that something has to be done in the ministry and at the National Sports Council of Zambia in as far as the administration of sport is concerned.

Mr Chairman, investment in infrastructure in order to develop sport cannot be over-emphasised and yet it is saddening, Mr Chairman, that in this year’s budget, there is not a single kwacha allocated for the development of infrastructure. Are we serious? Are we, really, hoping we are going to develop another Kalusha Bwalya if our players are going to play in the grounds and stadia that we have in this country? 

Mr Chairman, on the distribution of resources through this ministry and other departments, I propose that the Departments of Youth and Child Affairs be taken away from this ministry for them to receive the attention they deserve. Mr Chairman, out of a total budget of K14 billion to the whole ministry, youth development, which is ravaged by a number of street kids, has only been allocated K4 billion. What is very surprising, Mr Chairman, if you look at this budget very carefully, you will see that for the Department of Child Affairs, out of the K4 billion I talked about, K3 billion is meant for emoluments and recurrent departmental charges. What sense does it make? Which manager would want to spend more money in the administration rather than in production? It is a shame, Mr Chairman.

Further, I would like to refer you to skills and youth affairs. Sir, it is perturbing to see that in the budget for 2001, the MMD Government had allocated K2.3 billion for youth skills training. By the end of the year, they only disbursed K130 million. Is it going to be the same this year? Sorry, they do not even have a chance to do that this year. Mr Chairman, they have not allocated a single kwacha to youth skills training under the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Are we cheating the Zambian people that we are serious about youths affairs? These figures ought to relate, Mr Chairman, to the policies of the Government. If we are going to call this ministry as Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development when, in actual fact, they have no money allocated for youths, then better remove the youths away from there so that the youths of Zambia realise that this MMD Government does not care for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I would like to end by urging the hon. Minister of Sport and probably, ‘Youth and Child Development’ to go back to the Zambia National Sports Council and sort out the mess that that institution is creating in as far as community sport is concerned. I am a manager of sport in my constituency and would like to do it without undue interference. Organising sport should not be allowed within the NSCZ. We are not obliged whatsoever, and hence, I would like to hear from you, hon. Minister, that the K210 million grant that the National Sports Council of Zambia …

Hon. Government Member: Address the Chair!

Mr Lubinda: I am sorry, Mr Chairman.

Sir, through you, I would like to request that the hon. Minister informs this House that the K120 million that National Sports Council caused to go back to the donors be brought back for the sake of Sport-for-All, Sport in Action and EduSport. Those are the only known organisations that are serious and determined to develop sport at grassroots level.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairman, I would like to submit …

Mr Patel: Young Turk!

Mr Ngoma: … that as much as we normally say that youths are the leaders of tomorrow, youths are the leaders of today.

Mr Shumina: Like you.

Mr Ngoma: Like myself, yes.

However, as far as this year’s budget is concerned, youths have received a raw deal. Sir, 68 per cent of this country is composed of the youth, but when I look at the budget, especially youth development, I discover that 0.1 per cent is the money that has been allocated to the youth. That is to say, only K3.6 billion out of the K3 trillion that you have put in the budget has gone to the 68 per cent of the population of this country. 

I do not see any logic there. The Government should realise that as much as 68 per cent of the population is the youth today, the youths are 100 per cent Zambia’s future.

Mr Patel: Hanjika!

Mr Ngoma: So, there is need for seriousness in this matter. 

When you look at the youths of today, you will discover that they are only used to champion political goals of old and unprincipled selfish politicians. Sad to say that this was perpetrated very much in the last ...

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairman, when business was interrupted, I was saying that for once, let us stop using the beloved youths of this country as political hooligans. Let us stop using those at Kulima Tower, universities and other colleges.

Mr Chulumanda: Very good!

Mr Ngoma: Be it the ruling party or the opposition.

Mr Chairman, it is disheartening that in this year’s budget there is no single coin that has been set aside for youth training centres. So, although the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is not here, his deputy is. This is a serious appeal, you have to reconsider this position in this year’s allocations.

Sir, the K1.5 billion that has been allocated as Constituency Youth Development Fund is not enough. It is sad to note that in the past, this money ended up in wrong hands. I would like to support what Hon. Sialumba said that this money was grossly misused. If anything, people or youths in my constituency do not even know of the existence of this money.

So, I am appealing to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development to advertise, through radio and print media, that there is such a facility so that even those that want to misuse this money become aware that people know that there is such a fund. Sir, information is power, if the youths do not know that there is such a facility, it will be very difficult for them to access this money.

Mr Chairman, as I have already hinted, the majority of this country are youths. We have been lobbying that there should be gender equality in Parliament and in Cabinet, the same applies to the youth. We need to look at our legal reforms. It is high time we put in some provision to that effect. 

For instance, I would be very glad to say 25 per cent of Government or Parliament should be composed of the youth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Muzaluza ma elections!

Mr Ngoma: I believe the youth outside are listening to this speech. You are sitting on a time bomb.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear! At least, I am older than you!

Mr Ngoma: We are coming to take over. Before we take over, make a law that 25 per cent of Government and Parliament must be reserved for the youth.

As far as HIV/AIDS is concerned, it is very sad to see elderly men molesting young girls. We need to have legal reforms so that there are laws to curtail this trend. I want to put it this way, that the people who do such activities should be castrated. This is a very serious appeal I am making, and we need stiffer punishment for these evil and ugly activities.

Above all, Mr Chairman, the responsibility to do with the well-being of the youth should not just be left to NGOs alone. The Government should seriously come in.

On the question of football and other sport, I wish to submit that, Mr Chairman, the problem that we have with our Government is that they want to privatise everything. At the end of the day, they will end up privatising their people. When you say this is a national team, Zambia National Team, former KK Eleven, it means that it is a team that is supposed to be run by the tax-payers’ money.

Mr Nzowa: It is KK Eleven up to now.

Mr Ngoma: It is saddening to see that you want to sponsor football at critical times only. When there is an Africa Cup Tournament, you release K2 billion or K4 billion. I remember the Burkina Faso saga. You cannot fatten the pig on the day of selling it. So, it is high time we invested in football and other sports disciplines. 

Sir, I want to say that looking at the performance of our national team in the last Africa Cup, as much as it was bad, you will discover that Coach Roald Poulsen did quite some marvelous job in that, within the thirty days that he was given, at least, the standard of play of the team improved. It does not make sense to send that coach away. Football is supposed to be an investment and so, the Government should just come in and recall that coach if we want to develop, with due respect to the indigenous coaches.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I want to say that God has given us different talents. Through a punch, one can earn a living. For example, we can talk of Mike Tyson. Through athletics, some can earn a living. Through cycling and other sports, you can make ends meet. In that regard, I want to push this to the Government to seriously consider establishing a national sports academy. They should stop the habit of leaving the responsibility of running of the national team to private hands. What is the Government there for anyway? This is the Third World.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Copperbelt Province (Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to contribute towards this important Vote.

Mr Chairman, in the first place, I would like to say that admittedly, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Order!

Mr Appel crossed the Floor.

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: … the standards of sport have fallen over a number of years and we must look at the reasons for this. The main reason is the poor economy. Our economy in Zambia started going poor in the 1970s when we nationalised the copper mines. The mines deteriorated to such an extent that the UNIP Government was unable to sustain them. The price of oil also went up and this had an effect on our economy and we are still feeling it.

The MMD Government had to come in and privatise but, again, although we privatised and we could see light at the end of the tunnel, other forces of world globalisation such as Anglo-American Corporation are threatening us. These are the facts we must look at. We should not be narrow-minded. These are the facts.

Mr Chairman, the other contributing factor towards our poor performance in sport is lack of commitment from the people or the communities. Those old days, we used to have people who were very committed. They used to organise the youths in forming clubs, in spear-heading training and so forth. But nowadays, the majority of the people are not interested. They are just looking towards the Government. The Government cannot do everything. Communities in rural areas, at village level, can organise the youths in such a way that when they need something, then the Government can come in and assist.

For example, just recently, since my appointment as Deputy Minister for Copperbelt Province, we have sat down together with the Ndola community and this year we are going to establish a football academy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Government assurance!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: This is just our community in which we have not even involved the Government and you will see it will be established in Ndola and we have connections with some people in London who are going to assist us to establish this thing …


Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: Very soon, you will see Zambia exporting footballers to Europe and elsewhere.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: That is what I call initiative, which you did not know.

For example, one hon. Member talked about lack of funding for youth skills training centres. You start as community projects and the Government has money through ZAMSIF. We can set up those things for you. So, when it comes to provinces, support us with ZAMSIF funding.

Who destroyed Dag Hammarskjöld Stadium in Ndola? Tell us! It is UPND, one of the former ministers.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: You are talking about the Gabon Disaster; who was the Minister of Sport during that period when the disaster occurred? Dipak Patel.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: Why did he not make sure that the report was out?

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: Who was the Minister of Defence at that time? The super president of whatever party.


Miss Nawakwi: Question!

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: Hon. Members, please, let us look at these things objectively rather than just talk anyhow because once we start talking here …

Miss Nawakwi: On a point of order, Sir.

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: With those few words, Mr Chairman, I thank you very much and may God bless you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: It is all football that has been talked about. I think we are tired of listening to soccer. I call upon the hon. Minister to wind up debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chibamba): Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you for affording me this opportunity to add my voice to the numerous voices that we have listened to in this august House. 

I wish, Sir, to start by thanking hon. Members of this august House for their contributions on my ministry’s budget. The many hon. Members of the House who stood up and spoke are really a testimony of the importance and relevance of the activities and programmes of my ministry to the people they represent in this House. I, therefore, want to thank them for their concerns, for everything they have raised and I have taken note of their observations very seriously.

Mr Chairman, I think I will be failing in my duties if I continue with my policy statement without joining other Members of this august House who have spoken many words of congratulation to the Republican President for the relevant and wonderful speech he delivered to this House during the Official Opening of Parliament. The speech was not only an eye opener, in my opinion, but rather a time bomb defusing device. I am sure my good friend, Hon. Matongo, agrees with me. Equally, Mr Chairman, allow me to congratulate the able Minister of Finance and National Planning on presenting a very timely and relevant Budget to the House, which the country has received very well.

Mr Chairman, last but not least, allow me to congratulate the hon. Mr Speaker of this House and in congratulating him, allow me also to congratulate you, Mr Chairman, on your open election win in this House. I can only wish you many happy returns.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibamba: Mr Chairman, coming to the Vote, I stand to request this august House to consider and approve the estimates of expenditure for my ministry as reflected under Head 76/01 to 76/04. Mr Chairman, I have listened to the debates. Let me say that there is a general perception in our country that this ministry is small. Sir, because of this perception, the allocation to this ministry is very limited.

Mr Chairman, allow me to brief this august House and, through this House, the nation at large, on the programmes of the ministry. The legal status of the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development is derived from Gazette notice number 46 of 1992 published in the Government Gazette 3925 of 24th January 1992. The mission statement of the ministry is as follows: to provide a policy framework and facilitate, promote and coordinate and monitor child, youth and sport development programmes to uplift the standard of living, especially of the vulnerable and the disadvantaged. The goal statement is to lead, promote and coordinate the protection of the child, youth and facilitate their social, cultural and economic and political empowerment and development structures for making sport self-sustaining and accessible to all as a tool for social action.

Mr Chairman, to enable the ministry to achieve its mission statement, it has three departments with specific mandates. I am glad the hon. Members who debated this afternoon were able to specify which areas of the ministry they were talking about. Allow me to start with the Department of Child Affairs.

Mr Chairman, in accordance with our child policy, a child is a person between the age of zero up the age of fourteen years.

Mr L. L. Phiri: From zero?

Mr Chibamba: Yes, maybe, you can count the one in the womb. I do not know. The department is, however, also concerned with persons up to the age of thirteen years in view of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. The Department of Child Affairs monitors, coordinates and evaluates children’s programmes in the five sectors mentioned in the National Programme of Action for Children in Zambia. The five sectors are, I hope we are listening very carefully, education, health, family welfare, food and nutrition; and water and sanitation.

I must report that in this direction, good progress has been made in the implementation of the child policy. This has been done with the co-operation and collaboration with other Government ministries, local NGOs and donor agencies. Notable among the donor agencies is the United Nations Children’s Fund, UNICEF. They have been very forthcoming to our ministry. It is the intention of my ministry, Sir, to continue to build partnerships so that the issues of children are sufficiently addressed. It is pertinent to mention that the problem of children cuts across sectoral ministries and needs coordination. The practical concern of the Department of Child Affairs is to mitigate the plight of orphans and vulnerable children. To this effect, a steering committee on orphans and vulnerable children has been established. The committee is meant to improve the ministry’s capacity to coordinate, promote and evaluate the efforts of all institutions involved in child affairs.

Mr Chairman, this year many children’s and women’s rights strengthening institutional capacity for child protection and resource mobilisation will be the major work for the Child Affairs Department. The ministry will continue with initiatives to collaborate with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and other stakeholders to establish children's guidance centres in each province.

Mr Chairman, the centres will be meeting places for the child service providers, the children and other members of the community. The centres will also serve to bring awareness to the community and the nation at large on the rights and privileges of the children. The other areas of concern in the development and welfare of children pertains to the laws and judicial systems for children. The laws related to children were enacted as far back as 1956 and these are the laws we are using up to now. They have not been reviewed since then.

Mr L. L. Phiri: They are good laws. You want to spoil them?

Mr Chibamba: The ministry, in collaboration with other relevant ministries and stakeholders, plans to review the laws and other judicial practices affecting the child which will be done in phases starting with the Juvenile Act Cap. 53. The ultimate purpose is to incorporate the provisions of the conventions of the rights of the child in Zambian laws.

Mr Chairman, allow me, now, to say a few words to the House on the programmes of the youth. In accordance with our National Youth Policy, a youth is a person aged between fifteen and twenty-five years. I am sure Hon. Lucas Phiri belongs to this group.

Mr L. L. Phiri: I am forty-two.

Mr Chibamba: Hon. Phiri, a youth is a person aged between fifteen and twenty-five years, and since you are 24 years old, you belong to this group.


Mr L L Phiri: I am forty-two years old.

Mr Chibamba: This age group, by and large, constitutes the youths who prematurely leave school at Grades 7, 9 and 12, most of whom are unable to find employment. The Department of Youth has programmes to address some of these problems facing the youth. Its main occupation is to contribute towards the reduction of the rising levels of youth unemployment through skills training centres and promoting small-scale enterprises among the youths. Specific projects include the following:

Youth Resource Training Centres

The ministry has established sixteen centres in the country. These are to provide entrepreneur skills to the youths. These include carpentry, bricklaying, welding and needlework. The ministry will, this year, finalise the refurbishment of the following centres: 

(i)    Samfya Resource Training Centre;
(ii)    Mumbwa Resource Training Centre;
(iii)    Katembula Resource Training Centre;
(iv)    Kaoma Resource Training Centre; and
(v)    Mufumbwe Resource Training Centre.

The refurbishment of these centres will see an increase in the student intake.

As you will agree with me, skills alone without capital will not mitigate unemployment. It is, therefore, the desire of the Government to assist the graduates of the resource training centres with some venture capital to assist them start small-scale businesses.

Up until last year, Mr Chairman, my ministry was disbursing K10 million to each constituency, through the provincial administration, to assist the youths in their development programmes.

Mr L. L. Phiri: There is a problem.

Mr Chibamba: I admit, there is a problem.

It is common knowledge that many times, the money did not reach the intended beneficiaries. I must emphasise here that some of this money has been used even by the provincial administration to send people abroad for treatment.

Mr Shumina: Even party cadres.

Mr Chibamba: I do not know about party cadres but the provincial administration, sometimes, has misused this money. I really want to be sincere here because in this House, we must tell the truth.

Now, I have introduced some change in the administration of Youth Development Fund, starting this year. The money will be sent directly to districts for disbursement to deserving youth projects. The way I want to do it is the same way we do with Constituency Development Funds. We will have committees because in the past, this money went to the provincial administration through the Permanent Secretaries. The youths never even knew that the money had been sent until it was misused.

Now, we are trying to come up with a system within my ministry in which the money will be sent in the same way as the Constituency Development Funds. The signatories to this money will be the committees involving the youths themselves.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibamba: The hon. Members of Parliament will be involved in the same way they are involved in the Constituency Development Funds and one of the people in the committee must be a chief or village headman, you can choose someone from the  clergy or Civil Service. It is a mixture and this is what we want to do so that there is transparency, especially under the New Deal.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibamba: So, my ministry is working out guidelines, as of now, and modalities of working with district administrations in the administration of these funds in a transparent manner in line with the dictates of the New Deal.

Staff Training and Development

The ministry will continue to take advantage of locally assembled training programmes for in-service and refresher courses for its staff. The challenges facing the Government in youth development are great. They require professionally qualified personnel. The ministry, in collaboration with the Commonwealth Youth Programme, has introduced a diploma course in youth development. The diploma is being offered by the Zimbabwe Open University. I am sure some of you are aware of this.

Adolescent Reproductive Health

Mr Chairman, HIV/AIDS is a very serious problem facing mankind and needs no elaboration. Most of you have talked about it. Each one of us must do and must be seen to be doing something to control and stop the spreading of the pandemic. My advice to you, hon. Members, is that we need you for the next ten years in this House. The best is, let us abstain.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibamba: In order to ensure that the out-of-school youths are afforded an opportunity to access information about HIV/AIDS, the ministry will continue with the adolescent reproductive projects in the sixteen youth resource training centres which I have talked about. The project, which has now involved six NGOs, ensures effective communication through peer education. The project will also foster girl and child sexual rights.

Mr Chairman, let me, now, turn to sport, which has been a very crucial issue. Let me start by saying that this House should take note that from the time I was appointed by His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, I want to assure this nation and this House that I am not Minister of Football or Soccer. If that has been the case in the past, my ministry is responsible for all disciplines of sport.

Mr Chairman, the mandate of my ministry is to spearhead development of all types of sports in the country by coordinating, rationalising and supervising sports structures and activities and development of requisite sports infrastructure and facilities. Under my ministry, there are two Government institutions that regulate sports development and activities. These are National Sports Council of Zambia and Professional Boxing and Racing Control Boards.

The sport with a large following in Zambia is football such that to a number of people, sport is synonymous to football. I wish to assure the House that as a ministry, we are concerned with the development of every sport in the country and not only football.

Mr Chairman, it is common knowledge that Zambia has not been performing well in regional and international competitive games ranging from football, boxing, and so on. I wish to remind ourselves that sport is big business and requires substantial outlay in form of training and infrastructure construction.

Now, if we want sport in this country to be at the level where we want it to be, first and foremost, we must invest in it. For example, if today, we were asked to host an international tournament, which stadium are we going to use in this country of international standard? Do we have one?

So, my understanding is that we must be prepared to invest. If we want football or other sports to bring money back to this country, we must invest in infrastructures and sportsmen. That is the only way we can get our returns. Sport can also promote tourism because the hotels will benefit. The countries that have been holding tournaments like Mali, recently, made big money for the country, the tourism industry and everybody else?

The inadequate investment in sport has, in part, led to the poor results we are experiencing. Sport also requires professional managers who must be paid good salaries. As you have seen for yourselves, the expenditure on sport development as provided in the Yellow Book is grossly inadequate. I am sure you have all seen that there is only K14 billion.

Now, if you were to send a team outside the country and some of you have mentioned figures here, how many times are you going to pay if you have to pay K4 billion per trip? Is it only football? What about boxers? Recently, our boxers failed to travel to Namibia due to lack of money. Tennis teams also want to travel and all sports disciplines want to travel. Can we manage with that K14 billion? It is impossible. We must put our heads together. The Government and the opposition should put their heads together and find a way to support sports.

Sports development requires the participation of the private sector also and the community at large. The private sector has lost confidence because in the past money donated by them ended up in private pockets. This is my understanding and I am sorry to say this.

So, some of the business houses in the country have put breaks and they do not want to continue donating money which is not accounted for. As a ministry, we are looking at improving the administration of the National Sports Council of Zambia which should, in turn, shake up sports associations such as the Football Association of Zambia. We are pushing the idea of making sports such as football self-sustaining. Those who were in this House last year, I am sure, remember how hot the issue of Burkina Faso was in relation to money. We must remember that this is tax-payers’ money and the people that pay this tax would like answers on how this money is used.

As I conclude my remarks, I wish this House to know that our budget submission for the year 2002 was initially K45 billion. That is what we had applied for as a ministry. But due to budgetary constraints, only K14 billion has been made available to enable me carry out the programmes of the ministry.

Mr Chairman, before I refer to some questions raised by hon. Members of Parliament, let me say something in general. There have been a lot of questions about why sport has generally declined in Zambia. I would like to give a blanket response. I agree with all hon. Members of Parliament that sports development in the country has deteriorated over a number of years as can be seen from Zambia’s poor performance at major tournaments and competitions like the Commonwealth All Africa Games and Olympic Games as well as Africa and world cup football tournaments where Zambians failed to bring honours to the country despite the Government funding Zambia’s participation at the said games. The Zambia national football team was given K4 billion, just to bring one goal.

These declines have been caused by a number of factors, the major one being lack of adequate investment in sports development, that is to say, capacity investment. Most sports programmes are administered by volunteers in this country, most of whom have not received adequate training to enable them administer their respective sports disciplines professionally.

To address this issue, my ministry, in collaboration with other ministries and other stakeholders, shall draw up a deliberate programme to encourage the setting up of excellency centres at national and provincial levels to carry out training programmes for coaches, technical officials and administrators.

The teaching of physical education in schools, which is the basis of any sport, has been neglected. I am sure you all agree with me that physical education is no longer on the syllabus. It used to be on the syllabus when I went to school myself.

Having acknowledged physical education as the basis for any sport, my ministry will endeavour to collaborate with the Ministry of Education, especially over the Beyond Vision 2000 Strategy Plan being administered by the National Sports Council of Zambia. My ministry will also reactivate the inter-ministerial committee to add impetus to the survival of physical education in schools.

The existing sports infrastructures are in dilapidated state and not of international standard. In some cases, they are non-existent, especially in rural areas. It is a known fact that the role which sports infrastructures play in sports development is cardinal. In this regard, my ministry will carry out the following measures. In view of the limited resources and high cost involved in building modern sports infrastructure, my ministry shall encourage partnership with local and international companies under a programme called Build, Operate and Transfer (BOT). 

In this arrangement, the private sector and individuals shall be encouraged to construct modern sporting infrastructure, manage them and then hand them over to the Government after recovering their expenses. Consultations on the same issue are being pursued and the nation shall be informed about the outcome. This is a very serious programme.

With regard to the provincial stadia, my ministry shall use the same programme of Build, Operate and Transfer arrangement. Due to the inadequate budget allocation, it has become very difficult to carry out any capital rehabilitation on the Independence Stadium and the only solution, again, is to apply the BOT concept.

A lot has been said about the Dag Harmmarskjöld Stadium. However, I would like to say that it was not the MMD Government which brought down Dag Hammarskjöld Stadium like some people are trying to imply. We know very well when it happened and how it was done.

So, allow me to make the following observations. Similarly, due to the inadequate budget allocation, it has proved difficult to carry out any construction at the stadium site. However, my ministry has taken some initiative to construct a club house and a playing field from my ministry’s budgetary allocation and funds raised by the local fund raising committee. To date, K235,310,560 of which the sum of K22,288,544 was raised by the local fund-raising committee has been spent on clearing of the site, construction and electrification of the club house.

On the construction of the Dag Hammarskjöld being long over due and of concern to the general public, my ministry has no option, but to apply the same concept: Build, Operate and Transfer. We have some companies which have been coming to us asking if they could spend their money, but we cannot do this without going through the established Government channels. So, this is why we are talking of this concept of Build, Operate and Transfer. Consultations are still underway with various stakeholders.

A lot has been said about the youth in relation to talent identification. I would like to say that the youth, in my understanding, are the future of tomorrow. This area has not received adequate attention which it deserves. Much attention and resources have been spent on elite sports and these expenditures on elite sports have only concentrated on national teams’ participation in international engagements.

Further, these elite sports have been restricted to the teams along the line of rail and peri-urban areas while rural areas have remained untapped for quite a long time. I would like to assure this House that our efforts at the ministry, now, is to tap talent to nurture the young people in rural areas. There is a lot of talent out there in Mongu and Vubwi. There are people who can play better football than those we are picking, sometimes, from the streets to participate in international games. The end result is that the people we are picking from the streets have no commitment to national obligations. All they want is money. When they come back from wherever they had gone to play, they do not care whether they have won or not. 

They do not care about the glory that they bring into the country. All they are interested in is the shopping. They must come back with suitcases full of shopping. What we want is to nurture children at the grassroots level who will have commitment and the interest of the country at heart; people who will play football for the country and not for money. Those who have travelled with the national team, sometimes, have heard them say, ‘We have not seen the money. Who is supposed to bring the money? If it does not arrive by tomorrow, we are not playing.’ These things have been happening and we cannot tolerate them. 

To address this problem, my ministry will take a leading role to commit extra attention to the youths, schools and community based developing programmes, for example, the Zambia Royal Netherlands Agreement whose object is to link up with the existing structures in schools. My ministry is also in the process of establishing national and provincial excellence centres. These centres will concentrate on talent administration programmes in the rural areas that have remained untapped for quite a long time. My ministry is aware that tremendous talents exist in rural areas that need to be exploited. I wish, however, to say that beyond 2000, Sports-for-All programme is, in fact, aimed at promoting development and taping talent at grassroots level. 

Further, my ministry, Mr Chairman, in collaboration with various stakeholders, is currently working on the modalities of establishing provincial excellence centres whose core function shall be to carry out research and identify the specific sports disciplines in which each province or ethnic grouping is talented. I think Hon. Sikatana  emphasised this point. So, it is not a question of tribal balancing. You cannot balance in sports. If somebody cannot play, he cannot play. Pick the ones who can perform. If a person is not a fisherman, like Hon. Hachipuka, do not force him to fish because he will capsize in a canoe. Let Hon. Chama fish. 

Once that identification programme has been processed, there shall also be coaching and administration courses to be conducted in order to nurture and strengthen the identified talents. This programme will also carry out HIV/AIDS sensitisation programmes in all the activities to assist in combating the HIV/AIDS pandemic. Also, they will carry out a research on the existing traditional ceremonies, regardless of which province they happen to be, games and sensitise the masses and encourage them to participate. It is, however, worth noting, due to limited resources, that the said centres shall be conducted on a small basis using the already existing structures and facilities such as schools, communities and colleges. In some cases, these programmes will be conducted as mobile excellence centres. 

Mr Chairman, having said that, I, now, want to turn to some of the issues raised by hon. Members. Hon. Hachipuka said that the money given to the team for national engagements is not adequate. He talked about sports declining, in general, due to lack of adequate funding as well as politicisation and so forth. Let me say that there has been a lot of talk about football in this House. Now that the House is not adjourning today, I want to see which areas of this country play football. So, I am inviting hon. Members of the opposition as well as the hon. Members of the ruling party to a football match. My Permanent Secretary will make arrangements and we shall play at BP Recreation Club. So, you will be informed accordingly. Instead of talking too much, let us see what we can do on the pitch.

I agree with Hon. Hachipuka when he talked about pulling out of international engagements for some time yet this is a debatable issue. I have been thinking that, perhaps, we should pull out but it is not an easy issue because we have a lot of football fans in this country. The truth is that we have failed and we need to re-organise ourselves. The only way we can do it, in my opinion, is to, maybe, give ourselves a breather, stop for a while and probably, that money which could have been used for international engagements could be used to nurture the talent from our children we are talking about in schools. We should also come up with sports academies at provincial levels to be supervised by the central one in Lusaka. The provincial centres must also be responsible for district academies although this is a debatable issue. I cannot give a concrete answer because I know that a number of people would give different views on this. I must emphasise that international engagements are costing us a lot of money, in billions, per trip. Let us not only think of football but also other sports disciplines. That is our policy. Otherwise, I thank you, Hon. Hachipuka, for the sentiments he expressed.

Hon. Captain Moono said that being a new administration, we should find some formula in improving things. I have taken note of those sentiments. Obviously, you cannot reap where you did not sow. That is what I talked about earlier. It is only through investment that we can expect good results out of sports. If we do not invest, we cannot get any results. My ministry will come up with a ministerial statement on this but I want to say sports, in any country, brings hope. 

Hon. Sikatana, I do not really know what to say about his contribution. I am sure he entertained the House. Small wonder a point of order was raised on his contribution. Nevertheless, he gave us very good advice and experiences. For some of us who grew up on the Copperbelt, football was at its best those days because the mines like where I grew up in Mufulira, spent a lot of money on recreation. Like in Mufulira, we had Mufuke, Mutende, Lubuto, Chibusa, and Chawama clubs. Everybody in the family had something to do with the club, including the owner of the House who was a worker for the mines. When he knocked off, he found recreation in that club in the evening. While he was working, the wife had something to do at that club. She was taught something. The young boys and girls also, in the morning, played tennis, football and so forth. So, they were kept busy but these things are no longer there. They have disappeared. I am sure we have to look back at these things and see what we can do to bring them back, if we are to improve.

So, Hon Sikatana, I would like to thank you so much. I agree with you that in sport, there should be no tribalism. Why should you put somebody who cannot play football at number nine? He might represent Mwense or Vubwi but put the right person who will bring goals.

Hon Sialumba, I have noted your sentiments and I think I have talked about construction of welfare halls. You also talked about the behaviour of some children and the language they are using in town. I have listened to some of these languages. I remember one day I met some of them at the bus stop. They were saying that bamudala imwe muzigulako namataulo aya, osachoka mu bathroom monga mfubu.


Mr Chibamba: Something like that. You know these people peddle anything in town. He was peddling towels. My understanding was that, please, buy this towel so that after a bath, you do not come out like a hippo, you must dry yourself …

Miss Sialumba: Like a crocodile. {mospagebreak}


Mr Chibamba: Like a crocodile, yes. Thank you very much, Hon Sialumba, for that. Hon. Inonge Wina, it is high time we looked into the account of the children of this country. I agree 100 per cent. I really do not know how to thank you for your sentiments and support. The ministry really needs more funding if we are to address adequately youth and child programmes. The children or the youth are time bombs and we must not sit by and wait for them to explode. We must do some thing. 

Hon Kakoma talked about Constituency Development Funds. I agree the funds have been misused.

On off-loading children all over the country by the MMD Government, I am sure all parties here, in this august House, will find one way or two to also off-load children in this country. So, this is just a general trend.

 Hon. Lubinda said a lot of things, but I want to address one issue on the youth resource centres under poverty reduction programmes. The budget line is youth development funds. That is K1.5 billion. The other issue raised by Hon Lubinda was the estimates for child affairs which are K4 billion only. Only K1 billion has gone to personal emoluments. The actual position is that personal emoluments are K214 million and the rest is for programmes and grants. So, I hope that you have got that, Hon Lubinda. Let me just thank you because time is running out.

On K120 million, it is true the Norwegians came here but I must say that there were some politics involved. I do not want to go into details. Maybe, I will come back with a statement later. Even some of your parties on the other side were involved in this. I do not want to mention the names. I will come up with a statement.

 Hon Ngoma, thank you very much for your contribution. I agree with you that the youths’ opinion must be looked into. Since you are a youth, I have taken note of that and we shall do everything possible. 

Hon Opposition Member: He is 26 years.

Mr Chibamba: He is 26, so, he is just two years into adulthood. 

Hon Kafumukache, thank you very much for your remarks. May I also thank you for the effort you are making in Ndola to sensitise the community to come up with something about sport.

Mr Chairman, I know I have taken a long time. I really thank you for giving me the time.

With these very few remarks, I thank you very much, Sir.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates. 

VOTE 78/01 – (Office of the President – Special Division – K49,737,994,858).

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Chairman, I stand here to present to the House estimates of expenditure for the Office of the President (Special Division) whose functions are outlined in the revised Zambia Security Intelligence Service Act 14 of 1998.
Mr Chairman, these functions include the following:
(1)    To protect the people of Zambia and the general public against threats and acts of espionage, subversion, sabotage and acts intended to overthrow or undermine the legitimate Government by use of arms or other violent means.
(2)    To collect, correlate and evaluate intelligence relevant to the security or interest of the Republic;
(3)    To disseminate intelligence to Government institutions in such a manner as the President may direct;
(4)    To coordinate and oversee activities relating to security intelligence of any ministry or department of Government, the armed forces and Police Service;
(5)    To advise the Government, public bodies or institutions and statutory bodies or corporations on the protection of vital installations and classified documents;
(6)    To recommend to the Government, public bodies, institutions or statutory bodies or corporations on persons who may not have access to classified information; and
(7)    To advise the Government on issues pertaining to activities of foreign investors and behaviour of foreign markets.

Mr Chairman, I wish to state that the existence and importance of this Government wing need not be over-emphasised. The world allover cherishes the services of such institutions. Britain has M16, M15 and the United States has CIA and FBI.

Mr Chairman, the institution liaises mostly with other defence and security wings in curbing crime and protecting the lives of the people in this country and as such, intense movement of officers is inevitable. Officers here have to be allover in order to gather the intelligence that is needed to keep Zambia going.
Mr Chairman, the continuing wars in neighbouring countries such as Angola, DR Congo and Great Lakes Region and the unfolding situation in Zimbabwe have created numerous security, economic and social problems for our country. The institution, therefore, has a responsibility to monitor the developments in these areas and provide timely information to the policy makers. In addition, the institution complements the nations diplomatic initiatives through maintaining bilateral and multilateral liaison relationships with sister services in the region and elsewhere as well as through participation in joint permanent commissions on defence and security. These activities have been of great benefit to the country as it has resulted in the reduction of tension with some of our neighbouring countries.

Mr Chairman, the institution’s estimates of expenditure were pegged at K83,440,920,012 but only K49,737,994, has been given and reducing them further will adversely affect the effective operations of this organisation.

Mr Chairman, the difficulty most people who are not fully conversant with the functions of intelligence organisations the world over face is the tradition of secrecy associated with their operations which has unfortunately given rise to many speculations and myths which do not in any way reflect reality.
It is with this in mind that I wish to assure this House that under the New Deal administration, efforts will be made to demystify some of the operations and if there were any shortcomings in the service by the previous administration, the new service command has been instructed to address them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: In conclusion, I wish to implore the Members of this august House not to amend the figures required by the department as doing so will adversely affect the operations of the service in that certain services provided by the institution will not be adequately met.

Mr Chairman, I, now, present the estimates of expenditure for the Zambia Security Intelligence Services.
Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairman: I will call for contributions but understand that you are dealing with an organ which deals with sensitive issues. So, try not to go into details that might lead to revealing secrets of the State.

Mr Chungu (Kawambwa): Mr Chairman, I rise to contribute on this Vote.

First and foremost, I would like to commend this organisation of the Government right from the time when the first President Dr Kenneth ‘Super Ken’ Kaunda went to State House and I remember vividly that I was probably at the age of the hon. Member for Chipangali then.
Mr Chungu: There was an organisation which used to be called KK Boys and we do know and understand that KK or Dr Kaunda survived a lot of turbulence and you know that these KK boys did a lot of work that led to our defence forces quell military takeovers. Yes, I do understand that as liberalisation and democratisation came into being in 1991, there has been a lot of dilution which has led to a number of deficiencies in the way we handled the issue of investors because I strongly believe that we should have had information from this very organisation as to which investor is coming into our country. 
I do understand that we have the Investment Centre. I do not believe and I am not yet convinced that they have the capacity to look at these investors who are coming into our country. No wonder we have seen our investors stripping our companies, packing and leaving the country. This is because we have never given an opportunity to this particular organisation to give us critical information for the Government to make good policies and follow-ups to this effect. This Vote is very important and I strongly concur with the statement that has been given to this august House that we have to approve the estimates. Hon. Patel, our great grand parents did not debate this. Even in other Commonwealth countries, they do not debate this Vote. It is only here and it is because of democracy. 


Mr E. K. Chungu: Right now, I know that countries such as the United States of America, have trebled their finances to their organisations, after 11th September, 2001. It is only here where people can even think of reducing the budget that has already been reduced. We have to move away from this scenario. If anything, hon. Members, we have to understand that …


Mr E. K. Chungu: Mr Chairman, I need protection because I have to pump some sense into some hon. Members. Mr Chairman, I am saying …

Mr Shumina: On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shumina: Mr Chairman, on a very serious note, is the hon. Member in order to claim that we are not so knowledgeable that, now, he is standing up to pump sense into us? Is he in order, Mr Chairman?


The Chairman: We must understand that English is foreign to us.

Mr Shumina interjected. 

The Chairman: Then you do not need my ruling. Will the hon. Member continue.

Mr E. K. Chungu: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for your protection. I was saying that we have to understand the operations of this particular organisation. We can debate any other issue, but on this particularly issue, surely, let us put our political affiliations and our agendas aside because this does not only concern MMD. This concerns everybody, not only Members of Parliament who are in this august House. 

We are talking about reserves, we are asking our Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. We have to forecast. Five years to come, we do not know how much rainfall we will have. We are telling the hon. Minister to put measures in place so that we do not starve our people. Similarly, we do not know when we are going to be attacked. We do not know when somebody is going to knock on our door. If anything, the Government needs the organisation for policy formulation, if you did not know.

In short, Mr Chairman, I am suggesting that, I think, for us all in this august House to understand the operations of this organisation, maybe, we have to constitute a small committee of hon. Members, not hon. Members who claim to be honourable and yet they sell certain information outside, to actually work with …

The Chairman: Order! Everybody in this Chamber is honourable. We are not referring to animal farm where some animals are more equal than others. We are all honourable and equal in status. Please, continue and do not classify.

Mr E. K. Chungu: I withdraw my statement, Mr Chairman. Thank you very much for guiding me. I was saying that, indeed, we need to educate ourselves. We have to understand the operations of certain institutions for us to debate properly and for us not to go into the nitty-gritty. That is not necessary. Otherwise, we are as good as washing dirty linen in public. That is the point I was making. I was saying, Mr Chairman, that certain countries, and I do understand that the budget, for instance, of some country may be equivalent to another country’s organisation …

Mr L. L. Phiri interjected.

Mr E. K. Chungu: I know this organisation protects everybody in the Eastern Province and that is why the rats are, actually, in abundance. So, in other words, Mr Chairman, I am saying we need to support this Vote in totality because it is there for all of us. It is above partisan politics.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

The Minister for Central Province (Mr Chola): Mr Chairman, I support this Vote. There is no way that any Zambian, especially one that holds one passport and one home, can ever vote against this Vote.

Mr Chairman, this country has enjoyed peace so far.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Remove your hands from your pockets.

Mr Chola: Sorry, Hon. Phiri. Mr Chairman, this country has enjoyed peace since 1964 and mostly, we owe it to the people who have been looking after this country, who have toiled day and night to ensure that there is peace. We have a saying that only that who is sick always goes to look for a doctor and even a thief is the only person that can be afraid of what goes on in our intelligence system. Our intelligence system is based on knowledge to secure the security of all Zambians, not only individuals. Mr Chairman, excuse me if I have to stray a bit. I have never held any other passport. Others came back to this country when they saw that the political atmosphere was changing and they would have been out of this country up to now. We do not want such people to come and destroy this country at all.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr  Chola: Let them debate what is at hand. The security of the country should never be compromised because of personal egos.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chola: I, certainly, do not say that we should even halve whatever has been given to them, no. Those who are for peace and who support the Defense Forces, must support these honest gentlemen. They do a lot under difficult circumstances. If we are going to deprive them of the little even to move so that you can sleep well, so that those infiltrators coming in can be detected, what are we going to do? As Zambians, let us stand in unity and support this Vote because, obviously, if in the USA they can increase the allocation because of what happened on 11th September, 2001, why should we deny ourselves of the little that we have?

Just a few weeks ago, in India, for example, they passed a law against terrorism. These are the people in the forefront. Why should we deprive them of this little money?

We are not here to destroy this country. We are here to build this country and by voting for this Vote, we are going to build this country.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Mr Chairman, may I be protected from the eyes of the MMD Bench. They are quite scary


Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Mr Chairman, firstly, I wish to spell out some of the roles the security intelligence service plays in this country. The roles of the intelligence all over the world are many. Prominent among them are to counter threats of subversion, espionage, sabotage and military attacks. The intelligence service collects, evaluates and disseminates timely intelligence to the Government for timely decision and policy formulation to mention a few. 

Sir, for the Zambia Security Intelligence Service to achieve this it needs logistical support from the Central Government in terms of material, financial and manpower.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Mr Chairman, for Zambia to effectively carry out meaningful economical, social, political scientific and technological development, its defence and security agencies must be effective and alert.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Mr Chairman, most of Zambia’s neighbours are at war. However, I wish to point out that Zambia has continued to enjoy peace. This is so because our defence and security forces, which include the intelligence service, have been able to do their job properly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: If anything, we need to spend more on the intelligence because the world has changed and systems of operations of adversaries have also changed. 

Sir, I wish to refer to what happened in the United States of America on the 11th of September, 2001. The USA is, now, spending much more money on trying to build up defence than it could have if it had spent time to allocate enough resources to the CIA.

Sir the other major role intelligence plays in this country is liaison duties with our neighbouring countries. Most of the border problems have been resolved with the help of our intelligence officers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Lastly, but not the least, I wish to emphasise that if there were any abuses of the intelligence services before, I would like to urge the New Deal administration to put a stop to such abuses.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: The other important point, Mr Chairman, is that the intelligence services worldwide are not subject to public audits because of the nature of their operations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Sir, we need to maintain this institution and only avoid using it for procurements of military and police requirements. Let the army and Zambia Police purchase their own equipment. 

Sir, I, strongly, support the estimates of expenditure for the intelligence services. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa (Kabushi): Sir, I would like to contribute on this very important Vote.

Sir, I think I, totally, agree with Hon. Musonda but the problem here is …


Mr Nzowa: The problem that is here is that you people spoil the mood even when you know that you have a sensitive matter to discuss. You start antagonising the people you are going to lobby support from.


Mr Nzowa: So, the very important thing …


Mr Nzowa: I am supporting this Vote and you are interrupting. I will change.


Mr Nzowa: I am supporting this Vote and what I am saying is …


Mr Nzowa: Excuse me, give me chance.

What I am saying is that you should learn. Even last time, the Chairman had to admonish you because you do not even know the methods of trying to pass sensitive things.

Miss Nawakwi: Not even experienced.

Mr Nzowa: You see what I mean. We totally agree to this. We do not want to subject the security of the nation to newspapers, radio and other things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Now, having said that, I only hope that you have learnt one thing and that is not to antagonise us.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Yes!

Mr Nzowa: This is a clear thing.

Coming to my contribution, I would like to say that conditions of services for the people in the intelligence system are pathetic. You are talking of allocating billions and billions of kwacha. How much out of those billions go to the welfare of the staff? I can assure you that it is little. 

So, we are saying that as we allocate these huge sums of money, let us also encourage the improvement of the conditions of service for these people who are working in this sensitive organisation. 


Mr Nzowa: They are handling confidential and serious matters of security and then you underpay them. No wonder there are so many leakages of information in your system because you do not care.

Sir, we would like to retain professionalism in the intelligence system.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Let us train them in modern techniques. Let us not abuse them and reduce them to cadres. Let them deal with situations professionally. Do not use the system to fulfil your personal ego.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Leave them to work professionally.

The reason we are so sensitive on this side over this is that there have been reports that the intelligence system is a conduit for thieves. They are using it as a conduit to siphon money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: That is why on most of these Votes, we have demanded that you, as a responsible Government, clear these rumours. It is better you act quickly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: When you hear that the intelligence is being used, act quickly to give the nation the information.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: You are going to put a lot of things to rest.

Now, the problem is that when you hear something, you sit down, drink coffee and chat. This attitude should stop.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: All of us do not want our country to go up in flames.

Sir, having said that, when His Honour the Vice-President comes to answer our questions, I think he needs to clarify the rumour that the former Director-General was caught with a briefcase full of dollars in Bahamas. This might be a lie or truth.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Do not let these things accumulate. That is why there is this atmosphere here. It is your responsibility. You just come here to sit and when people speak, you say they must have the nation at heart. We have the nation at heart. We want to support these Bills but take this matter seriously.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Each time you hear something, tell us the Government position as quickly as possible. You must have a fire brigade approach to issues. The moment we hear that there is fire at some place, we rush there and quench it. We do not want the way you are sitting, sleeping, laughing or whatever.


Mr Nzowa: This is not good for the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Sir, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this important Vote on the Floor of the House. I wish to say, from the outset, that I fully support this Vote. In fact, having worked in a security-related area, I believe that the amounts allocated are not enough. However, our economy cannot support large amounts. Therefore, our services will have to do with what has been allocated.

Sir, Zambia is surrounded by eight neighbours and in some of these countries, there are wars going on. This country has been involved in liberation wars right from independence and now, some of our neighbours are at war. This has an impact on what happens in our country and on security in our country. We need not only to maintain the defence forces but also the security forces.

A long time ago, one important general who became an emperor and conquered almost the whole of Europe stated that, ‘God was always on the side of the army with the largest number of troops.’ This was Napoleon. Today, what experts are saying in this field is that God Himself is on the side of the country or side with the largest amount of intelligence. 

Today, we are faced with international terrorism. If the United States of America, for example, had intelligence about what happened on 11th of September last year, they would have acted to try and prevent it. Unfortunately, there was an intelligence failure and this is why they have, now, beefed up their intelligence system. They have allocated more resources. It is not good enough to allocate resources after you have suffered calamity or disaster.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: We do not have the resources to be dealing with these kinds of things; to redress such calamities when they have occurred. We need to be proactive, we need to maintain our services with the little that we have to ensure that they go forward and perform for the benefit of our country.

If our country begins burning, it will not choose Hon. Dr Machungwa as a former Government Minister and also a member of the MMD. It will take Hon. Situmbeko …

Mr Chiti M. Sampa: He will be the first person to be taken!


Dr Machungwa: It may take Hon. Hachipuka, Hon. Sibetta and everybody.


Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairman, when we are dealing with security, let us be united. As politicians, we can never agree on a lot of things, but when we are talking about security of our nation, let us be concerned. It is not only our security here in Parliament but also the security along the borders. Let these people be enabled to perform so that they are able to deliver. 

When you look at the state of Israel, it is a relatively small country surrounded by many Arab States which are very rich. For instance, Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil, but one thing that you must realise is that the Israeli Intelligence, known as MOSAD, is extremely effective and there are a lot of resources going to that. We many not have the resources of such countries but what we have should be availed to those who can try to defend and protect the security of this country. It is not only defence or State security but even economic intelligence. Some of the countries that have scored advances in science and technology relied on their intelligence services to get them that intelligence in science and technology.

So, whatever we do, I would like to beg all hon. Members on both sides that let us not do anything that weakens the foundation and security of our country.

I hope that we will all support this. In fact, if it were possible, we should have even voted them more funds so that they can perform even better. Even if they have made some mistakes, we should impress on the system to try to ensure that these mistakes are corrected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: But to try and to chop off their feet so that they cannot fight … 

Sorry, Mr Chairman, that is unparliamentary. We are really debilitating ourselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairman, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the overwhelming support that has been given to our personnel.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: If we are talking about the peace that we have enjoyed in this country, it has not come about by accident but it is by design because we have men and women who are committed to that concept and we have to commend them. We are here making arrangements in terms of how we are going to develop this nation but our young men and women are out there in the field, twenty-four hours a day, monitoring the situation. How are we going to look after Zambians to ensure that we prosper in whatever vision we would like to advance and so on? So, they must be given maximum support. 

If we need peace in this country, we must be prepared to invest heavily. There are so many economic saboteurs. There are so many people who would like to weaken our country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Now, if we allow a situation in which we are going to weaken the personnel that are responsible to provide a cushion to our country, then we are doomed as a nation. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: But I am happy, Mr Chairman, that the mood of this House is that, in fact, we should be prepared to invest more …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … in our security personnel because they are doing a commendable job. They do not even sleep. I have been associated with their performance. Having been Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Home Affairs, I know how hard-working they are. They have no time to eat, sometimes, not even time to sleep. So, you have to appreciate their commitment to the security of this nation.

Mr Chungu: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Similarly, Mr Chairman, in terms of mobility, we would not like to talk about their weaknesses, but in terms of mobility, our officers are handicapped. This is an issue that must be addressed sufficiently. Our officers should be given maximum support in this direction.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We should provide a lot of vehicles for them. We should make a lot of money available to them in order for them to move from one place to another. 

Fuel as of now is very expensive and if we expect our officers to perform their functions to the best of their ability, we need to give them a lot of money for fuel.

The question of training is also cardinal because the world is dynamic. We have seen how other countries have advanced in terms of technology. We should also not be seen to be lagging behind. We should expose our officers to modern skills. So, the training aspect is very important. We need to give them a lot of support in this field. 

Sir, finally, I take it that all of us are unanimous that we are not going to subtract one ngwee from this Vote. If anything, we should add to that figure five times.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Thank you, Mr Chairman. I stand to contribute on this Vote which I think is a very serious Vote that we have to look at very carefully. We have to look at it without emotion but with total rationality.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: To try to say that you have to be patriotic and that patriotism can only be shown by supporting the Vote is not approaching this matter seriously.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: All of us in this House swore the Oath of Allegiance to this country and to our Constitution and to suggest that anybody in this House is unpatriotic is wrong. We should start being a bit more careful in the choice of our words.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, the other day I pleaded with you that do not write me notes because, remember, I was accused of favouring my so-called blue-eyed hon. Members. My attitude is that everyone who is here must be given a chance to talk. I do not only give a chance to those who keep on indicating all the time. You can only be picked if there is nobody who has not spoken for some time. I want everybody to have a fair share.

Will the hon. Member for Livingstone, continue, please.

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, I was talking about the motives during our debates. Hon. E. K. Chungu stated that we should not wash dirty linen in public. My answer to him is that it is better to wash your dirty linen than to walk around with the dirt and stinking.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, this is not a question as to whether or not we require people to be in the Office of the President. We are not doubting that these people are dedicated people, especially the middle and junior ranks. Unfortunately, when you look at the budget, there has only been a slight increase in terms of their emoluments. So, this particular Vote is not about raising their conditions. In fact, there is no sense of any wish to really look after the welfare of the officers who do the work. All the money is going to totally unproductive areas and it is those areas that we wish to trim down. We do not wish to touch upon any of the perks of those dedicated middle and junior officers. All of us on this side salute them and recognise that they are doing a good job.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, it has been stated that the events of September 11 2001, in the USA, should be taken into account and that there is a Taliban threat throughout the world. I believe, Sir, that that is not the true reason why the figures in this Vote appear as they are. In any event, if it was truly to deal with that particular threat, the United States Government is on record that it shall assist any country which is going to be fighting that particular threat and so, if there was a need for that particular threat, …


Mr Sikota: If there was a need to address that particular threat, there are people who wish to address it as a world-wide problem and who have sufficient resources to make sure that it is covered.

Mr Chairman, it was stated that, in fact, originally the Office of the President requested for an amount of K89 billion but then it was found that it should be brought down to K49 billion. In my opinion, Sir, this shows that when they put forward their requests, the Office of the President, obviously, inflated them. They more than doubled what the Government itself thought they needed. Hence, they reduced it from K89 billion to K49 billion. That was the decision made by the Government. Mr Chairman, for the same reasons, we, too, as a House, can patriotically trim it further down from K49 billion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: That in itself is a warning to all of us that if they were so irresponsible as to demand so much that it had to be cut by almost 50 per cent, we need to look at it closely. There may be some areas that the Government or the Executive missed out and that is the responsibility of this House and that is what we are going to do. We are not going to shy away from our responsibilities. We owe it to the country and that is what true patriotism is about.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairman, there are definite reasons why we are afraid and are suspicious. We have been told that there are amounts such as the K7.5 billion which was taken out in cash and the US$730,000 which I have seen in the Yellow Book in the year 2001 and I cannot find where they fall. It shows there is something inherently wrong with this Vote. We are told that this money was for the Ministry of Defence.

What other things are hidden and which other things are mirroring merely what is supposed to be in other Votes? We will be irresponsible if we do not scrutinise this Vote thoroughly. To date, we have not received a satisfactory explanation as to that K7.5 billion which was taken out in cash just between August and December last year and US$730,000. Instead people are being arrested.

Mr Chairman, there are other items that concern me, for example, we have a provision of K126 million for drugs. I do not know whether this is in relation to what has been happening recently, which is called the slow puncture and I do not know whether this is to heal people from the slow puncture or to induce it. What are these drugs for? The allocation for the drugs is higher than for the defence forces and we need to know why this is so. How can a smaller number of people require a higher figure than the defence forces? What are these drugs for and what type of drugs are they? We have heard too many stories of people disappearing or getting eliminated in mysterious circumstances and you have a figure that sticks out like a sore thumb like this one. 

Mr Chairman, before I run into the red light, I would like to state that there is an amendment being moved by my colleague and I would like to support it and it is by Hon. Sichinga. It is intended to amend the functional total in sub-item 03 on purchases from K13 billion to K9 billion.

Mr Chairman, I would like to merely point out that this figure of K46 billion under this Vote is the same as for Parliament and it is actually three and half times more than what has been given to youth development. That just shows that our priorities are not right.


Mr  Sikota: Check your figures. Mr Chairman, I would like to state that it is …

The Chairman: Order! Your time has expired.

Mr  Musanya (Chinsali): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for allowing me to air my views on this issue of Special Division.

Mr Chairman, a Constitution is an important instrument of law and anything provided thereunder is very important. This Special Division falls under the Office of the President. It is established under Section 33(1) of the Constitution. The President is the Head of State and Zambia is a State with boundaries which are very clear.

The President is the Head of Government. This Government has control of all security wings, for example, Home Affairs. He is the Commander-in-Chief of armed forces. He defends Zambia from external enemies.

You can see why this section is important. The President needs these powers. Zambia has always been under threat and there is no way a country can run without security. Zambia has to defend itself from external and internal enemies. In this House, we have been talking about the state of insecurity in some constituencies. This is precisely so because there is not enough money for defence forces to go round.

Our security men do not have sufficient funds. They need more funds than the ones which have been provided for in the Yellow Book. You cannot counter an enemy superior in his fire arms and intelligence with an AK 47. We have to improve the Special Division by funding it.

As the Leader of the House ably explained, there are so many things that this division is responsible for. Protecting a nation is not an easy task. Co-ordination and dissemination of intelligence in the service is not simple. These things require a lot of money, whether we like it or not.

Mr Chairman, all I am saying is that we Zambians must be aware of the security situation. This is no game. When you talk about intelligence, it is no kids’ game. When hell breaks out, there is no limit and there is no choice. We are all Zambians. We must defend ourselves and we need a lot of money to do this.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Chairman, thank you very much for giving me a chance to speak on this very important Vote.

First and foremost, we need a bit of house cleansing because what has happened in the last ten years is a creation of total mistrust. If I had a better and stronger word, I should have used it. This is the mood that you find in Zambia today. There is total mistrust in the market place, village, universities, Parliament and everywhere. The air smells of mistrust. That is why the Government side is finding this problem of getting their job approved. That is where the whole problem lies.

Now, in Zambia, we have always spoken about the Americans as being a citadel of democracy. If you look back at America now, there are Enron saga, Anderson saga, and so on, and they have got that problem of image building again. Chief Executive Anderson has resigned and is facing charges. Those are actions that are meant to rebuild the image and to bring back the trust that the people of America are looking for. That is the kind of action the people of Zambia out there are asking for. We are saying, prove to us that we can trust you again.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: The ten years saw scandal upon scandal. I am tired of reading about scandals in The Post almost everyday. I am sure tomorrow morning, there will be another scandal as headline. This is the kind of thing that we are treated to everyday.

Mr Chairman, I am supporting this Vote but, as we are giving this good organisation, the Office of the President, this money, can the Government prove to us that we can trust them again. Then there will be no problem. We have been taking about K7 billion and so on but there is no action from the Government side and you expect people to trust you. You even arrest people that think can contribute by revealing what this office that we trying to give money today, has been doing wrongly.

Mr Patel: Hanjika!

Mr Mwale: I am an accountant by profession and if you do ratios, the ratio of the money put into agriculture as against the Budget is zero point something but the ratio of the Office of the President’s figure that we are trying to approve tonight is above zero. That is priority setting again. There is no problem if you can prove that we are going to use this money to bring this nation back on track.

We all need security. Zambia needs security whether in Chama, Kaputa and so on, whatever levels we are, but we want to trust this policeman that claims he is guarding us. But if the watchman is the first one to raise a gun against me and then next morning, he tells me that he needs a new gun, how do I buy him an automatic riffle when he pointed a muzzle-loader at me and I am gone?


Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr Mwale: Mr Chairman, the Government needs image building. I think the Government side has a lot of work in image building to bring back the confidence of the people and trust the Government of the day. We are not against the Government. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale: We are talking on behalf of the people whom we represent. They are saying, how can they trust this Government? How are we going to trust you because the K70 billion is gone? 

Remember, it is not the Members of Parliament that reported the disappearance of K70 billion. It was the Press. What they are doing, right now, I do not know but by tomorrow, in one of the newspapers there will be a headline about a scandal. That is what we are talking about.

Mr Chairman, we are supporting the Vote but can the OP prove to us that they are worth the job.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Material!

The Chairman: You are raising very good issues but you can only reduce yourselves to speculators. Some of the issues that you have raised are very serious. If you want to get proper answers, it is not by merely debating in this Chamber. Yes, you are recorded and it ends there. But if you really mean to assist the country, seek information. That is why we have got, in our parliamentary operations, the system of questions. You put a question to the Vice-President about the K70 billion. When he gives the answer, you will also be given a chance to ask probing supplementary questions and nobody will stop you. But when you just talk, you reduce yourself to a bird singing beautifully.

I enjoy listening to that.


The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I wish to thank all hon. Members who have contributed favourably to the Vote on the Floor.


The Chairman: Order! I do not stop people from making consultations. But if you feel you want to consult each other, instead of disturbing others who want to listen to the Vice-President’s submissions, you have the right to go outside the Chamber. It is a right of every Member of this House to go outside the Chamber and consult with your friends. We are not going to stop you. That is why you are here. However, it is not in order to make consultations when the Vice-President is on the Floor.

The Vice-President: I am able to judge that the patriots of Zambia are forever ready to defend the country. This is the way it should be as I keep on reminding a lot of my colleagues that we only have one country. If anything was to go wrong here, we would find it very difficult to escape. I am aware of some of those colleagues who may have options and can afford to behave recklessly because in case of some unfortunate event, they know what to do.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, we saw what happened during the elections in Zimbabwe. Many people from Zimbabwe, especially the non-indigenous Zimbabweans crossed to Zambia and lived in the Sun Hotel, Royal Zambezi and all other hotels in Livingstone. They were there to see what would happen in Zimbabwe. Even those who are building the Chirundu Bridge crossed over to Zambia. They refused to work because they did not know what would happen. They feared something was going to go wrong and they needed to run for dear life.

I am also aware that some countries had made contingency plans to bring in aircraft in Zambia so that if their people were under any threat of displacement in Zimbabwe, they would evacuate them to their countries.

So, if you have choices, you can behave like that. But a lot of our people here do not have choices. For example, where would those people from Western Province run to? You cannot run to Angola, for those who are in Angola run into Zambia. Our people in Luapula cannot run to the Democratic Republic Congo because the Congolese are fleeing into Zambia. So, these are the dangers that we face. Therefore, I am highly delighted that the whole House has supported this Vote.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati, Mr E. K. Chungu, talked about the KK boys. Indeed, they were called KK boys because of the loyalty that they exhibited to the leader of the day. In those days, this country went under tremendous upheavals. Those of us who are not involved in these things can sleep soundly thinking that everything is all right. But whilst we are asleep or working in here, there are some of our own people who must go round making sure that we wake up the following morning and that is the office you are debating here.

The hon. Deputy Minister for Central Province and Member of Parliament for Chitambo, Mr Chola, and the hon. Member for Kabwe, Mr Musonda, supported the Vote and wished that the amount could be increased. Hon. Musonda talked of the necessity to train our people. Sir, that is what is happening. Our people are continuously being trained in new tactics. After 11th September, 2001, the world changed in terms of security. For example, the enemy sent their people to go and train to be pilots in the United States of America. So, they got citizenship and lived in America. When it suited them to destroy America, they just did that.

So, we have to be careful. We cannot lag behind because Zambia has been peaceful since independence. God our creator has stopped creating new countries. If you do not hold on to the country that you have, it will go.

The hon. Member for Luapula, Dr Machungwa, also talked about the wars in the region. It is true there are wars in the region. This is why it is necessary that we keep our own place intact.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Bangweulu, Mr Kasongo, called for more funding and believed that the Vote was unanimous. I agree with him.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, Mr Sikota, talked about foreign intelligence. He said that the United States of America would assist. Now, my dear brother, how can we depend on another country to help us? By the time the Americans come here, there will be no Zambia. It will be gone. So, we cannot sit here and wait for Americans because of their undertaking that they will support whoever needs help.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Chinsali was highly supportive. The hon. Member of Parliament for Chipata, Mr Mwale, talked about total mistrust. I think I would like to agree with him. There is a lot of mistrust, rumours and hatred in this nation. We, as leaders, need to solve these problems. There is no need at all for that. We are in Government today but we could be in opposition tomorrow. So, what we need is to trust each other, especially those that you have given instruments of power. These men and women here do not sleep, like one hon. Member stated. These people work from 0730 hours. I am in my office at 0730 and I do not have lunch until the time I knock off. That is how we are working. We believe that the new administration needs to be given the support that it desires in order to be able to give the Zambian people what they want. As it is, only the people in Government can bring development that you want. So, these people cannot rest. If you want schools and roads, these are the men and women who are going to provide those things.

So, Mr Chairman, I thank the whole House for the unanimous support to this Vote.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Governments Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 78/01 – (Office of the President – Special Division – K49,737,994,858).

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): I beg to move an amendment in sub-head 2 – Recurrent Departmental Charges, sub-item 03 - Purchase of Services, as follows:

(a)    ‘By the deletion of “13,038,115,844” and the substitution therefor of “9,778,586,883”;
(b)    the Functional Total is amended by the deletion of “49,737,994,858” and the substitution therefor of “46,478, 465,897”; and
(c)    in the Grand Total by the deletion of “5,676,754,293,934” and the substitution therefor of “5,673,494,764,973”.’

The proposal that I have put forward recognises that there is need for security in the country. However, the issue that is of concern to me is that if you look at this particular Vote and drawing from past experience, there was a provision that was made of K3,200,000,000 for the year 2001. This amount had a supplementary amendment last year of K25 billion. Since then, the figure that has been provided for this year is K13 billion. I submit that this item does not affect the remuneration of workers in the security services but we are concerned about the abuses to which these Votes are being put. 

I wish also to allude to an audit report that was produced by the Auditor-General of this country, and if you may permit me to make this case. I wish to say that in the Report by the Auditor-General, Procurement of Goods and Services in the Zambia Army and Zambia Air Force for the period from 1992 to 31st December, 1999, which was presented to the National Assembly last year, this is what the Auditor-General said, and I quote:

‘Back ground

    Prior to 1992, Estimates of Expenditure in respect of debt servicing, defence, security and statutory and constitutional obligations were a direct charge to the general revenues of the Republic. Defence and security expenditures related to operational requirements and obligations of Zambia Intelligence Services, Zambia Army, including Department of Defence Security under the Office of the Secretary of State for Defence and Security, Zambia Air Force, Zambia National Service and parts of Zambia Police were charged to the general revenues of the Republic. In 1992, all expenditures in respect of defence and security planned operations were reflected in the open estimates of revenue and expenditure and appropriated under the relevant head of expenditure Votes. For example, planned expenditures for Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force, Zambia National Service as well as the Department of Defence Intelligence were reflected under the Ministry of Defence for presentation to the National Assembly by the Minister of Defence. The effect of the change is that the operational and executive management of the funds and related resources such as stores and equipment rested with the Ministry of Defence. This means that the commanders of the defence forces could not incur expenditures except with the ministry’s approval. However, the ministry could incur expenditures on behalf of all the Defence Forces. 

This arrangement weakened internal control systems and rendered considerable risk to funds and other resources. As a result of the weaknesses in internal control systems, individual officers in the Defence Forces, Ministry of Defence and Ministry of Finance and Economic Development exploited the situation to the detriment of the forces and country thereby benefiting private companies and individuals. Although huge sums of money were externalised by Bank of Zambia on instructions from officials at the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development, there were scanty verifiable records such as invoices, delivery notes and receipts kept by the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development to support such remittances. However, the nature of the payments were seemingly concealed by indicating to the Bank of Zambia such remittances were in respect of debt servicing which obligation qualifies for a direct charge to the general revenues. They were but misapplications. The misapplications must have been perpetrated by connivance, collusion and compromise between the Government officials and those of the companies concerned. As a result of these activities and connivers, some of the goods, transport fleet and equipment which were ordered were either short-delivered or not delivered at all.’

In this regard, the Public Accounts Committee of this House expressed serious concerns over the issue of procurement in the Zambia Defence Forces and recommended that the purchasing systems should be streamlined to ensure that transparency and accountability are promoted and value for money realised.

I can go on to give details. Against the background of the Auditor-General’s Report, the Public Accounts Committee of this House and also the value to which these amounts have been raised, as given on page 274, I submit that it is necessary that this allocation which has been increased by more than three times should be reduced appropriately so that the funds that become available in this manner can be made available to the Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that he can meet his shortfall in the oil excise duty. 

Hon. Government Members: Aah.

Mr Sichinga: I wish also to say that the arguments that have been presented in this House that, in fact, the officers’ welfare will be compromised could not be further from the truth because that allocation has not been touched. 

I, therefore, submit the amendments in view of the abuses that have been so rampant, clear and due to the fact that nobody else apart from the Auditor-General has access to the records of the Office of the President, Special Division. The Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee has no access to such expenditures which do not impinge on the operations but impinge on the issues of misuse and abuse of office.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Thank you, Mr Chairman. 

Having been in the opposition since I started fighting the Third Term debate, I will be the first one to admit that we need a Special Division, State Intelligence. But we need the State Intelligence for the 10.5 million Zambians. I wan to put on this House’s record that I was harassed day in, day out. You come out of the House, …

The Chairman: Order! Personal harassment or confrontations that fall under the law enforcement agencies must not come in this. Debate the amendment as proposed by Hon. Sichinga. Outside that, you will not be allowed to continue.

Will you continue, please.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, in supporting that side of the House, I hope you will allow me to advance the point I am making. We need state security for 10.5 million Zambians, including everyone in the House.

Mr Chairman, when people raise issues of accountability, it does not follow that we are not being patriotic. 

We are being more than patriotic and when we demand answers from the Government, it cannot be reduced to a mere piano tune. We need real answers and not quoted answers. May I draw this House back to the debate on the Supplementary Expenditure dated 2nd  November 2001, when the leader of the House then, Hon. Kavindele, came to this House with a motion and said, ‘I am a bearer of a message from the President.’ The President sent him to propose Supplementary Estimates for, among other things, financing defence and security and also the Office of the President.

 May I, please, be allowed to quote from the honourable leader of the House's motion then. I am drawing you back there because the answer he gave us was that the money to the Office of the President was meant for defence and security, meaning that the Office of the President took the money to the army. That is the way I understood the statement. 

May I draw you to his justification then for moving the motion. The House has on record that the money was taken out by the Office of the President in cash to finance the regular army. I hope that I am not misquoting his Honour. But listen to this, He said then, Mr Speaker, and I quote, from the Daily Parliamentary Debates of 2nd November, 2001. At the end of December, last year, the Government asked for supplementary expenditure of over K500 billion over and above what this Parliament had approved. Parliament approved K392 billion. The Government came back with Supplementary Estimates of over K500 billion. I just want to quote two Votes that the honourable leader said he wanted to finance. He said; ‘Zambia is bordering countries where civil wars are being fought. To ensure that our citizens enjoy relative peace, we have to continue to guard our borders such that the conflicts in the neighbouring countries do not spill over to our country. As a result, we have deployed our gallant men and women in uniform to our borders to protect property and life. And these deployments,’ he argued, ‘cost money. In this regard,’ he said, to Mr Speaker, ‘The Ministry of Defence has been allocated K84.4 billion. Similarly, the Office of the President and Special Division, have been allocated a sum of K37.2 Billion.’ That is the point I am making, Mr Chairman.

He told us that the money went to finance defence. Did he then do a supplementary expenditure within what Parliament had authorised? The previous Parliament authorised him to spend K84 billion directly to the uniformed men and gave K37 billion hardly a month before the year closed to Special Division. I need an answer before I am called a saboteur and a non-patriot. I need an explanation on this position where money was clearly allocated to Special Division and also…

The Chairman: Order! 

You cannot pose a question waiting for an answer when this amendment has not been resolved. Justify the amendment or do not support it.

Mr Sikatana rose to speak. 


Mr Sikatana:  Mr Chairman, …

The Chairman: Oh Sorry. 

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman …, 

The Chairman: Order! Listen, we are not debating. The debate has ceased. You were an hon. Minister for a long time and you have been associated with the operations of this Parliament. So, you should know the procedures. Simply, stand for two minutes and indicate if you support the amendment or not.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, I thought there is a motion on the Floor and this motion is proposing …

Mr Sibetta: On a point of Order.

The Chairman: This is not a motion. We are debating an amendment proposed by Hon. Sichinga. Do not forget we are not debating this. He has put up the amendment. Now, you give the justification for his amendment. The Government bench will also be asked to speak. If they reject it, they must give reasons. That is all. We are not opening another Pandora’s box. Please, continue.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, I was …

Mr Sibetta: On a point of Order.

Miss Nawakwi:  Mr Chairman, thank you for your guidance. I notice that the proposed amendment would reduce the sum by K49 Billion. In trying to debate against the motion, I was putting on record why the Government needs to be clear for some of us to support them. That is where I am leading. If you look at the proposed Budget, the K37 billion Supplementary given to the Office of the President in November, it was hardly three or four weeks before the close of the year. In trying to support the hon. Leader of the House, I want him to reconcile the statements he laid on the Table that the money which the Office of the President took went to their colleagues in the Ministry of Defence because he asked this House to approve some of the estimates. If the hon. Leader of the House can make me comfortable, I would like the boys to have the money because we are not against defence and security. We are against public theft.

 That is the issue for me. And in trying to justify that position, I do not want to be called a saboteur when it is in black and white that the hon. Leader of the House begged this House to authorise him to fund the boys separately but came back with a contradictory statement that the cash which was taken out of Office of President was given to the regular Defence Forces.

Nonetheless, I would suggest that there are many ways of doing these things. The point that I was making here is that we put the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in a difficult situation. We were told that he could not deficit finance because of inflation. The point that arose form the Supplementary Estimates in November, 2001, was that the supplementary was twice more than the budget which was approved here. So, when people ask for a simple 0.002 per cent, you cannot call them saboteurs. In supporting the hon. Leader of the House, I am seeking answers when he comes to respond to the motion raised by my hon. Colleague on your left side, Mr Chairman. Maybe, because I am standing here, you might think I am supporting the motion. I would like clear answers. He has an opportunity to clear the misunderstanding.

Lastly, I think it is wrong for the Government to be saying that they have zero-tolerance for corruption and at the same time start locking up people who are giving them information as to where the money is going. The method may have not been right. But it is important for the Government to correct the situation and not try to cover up. 

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairman, I think we should be careful the way we approach this issue. There is a proposal and that is what we should debate upon. On purchase of services for the division, Hon Sichinga proposes a reduction and he does not say how he arrived at that. Purchase of services today is essential for this Government and the security of the nation requires services critical to the security of the country. For instance, in the position that we are, the intelligence has to pay expert services to those that have better qualified personnel and instruments. 

The budget has estimated the cost of these services and for Hon. Sichinga to succeed, he should be a person that would say this deduction would still not compromise the purchase of services. So, he must give further and better particulars. He should be able to say this House would be wasting this money. 

Now, in opposing this amendment, I am saying the danger in debating issues like this is that you will be disclosing the kind of services and yet you call it intelligence. You want to tell your enemy that we are planning to spend so much so that the Somalis in Senanga that are currently operating butcheries from the terrorist hit Somalia can hear. We should start telling them that part of the purchase of services will require that we use those with better facilities …

Mr Sibetta: That is the work of the police!

Hon. Government Members: Aha!

Mr Sikatana: I am not talking about the meat they sell, I am talking about the intelligence that says we need money to buy this and that. Hon. Sichinga is not satisfied, he thinks that we should just pluck K4 billion out of the blues. 

Mr Sichinga: No! I did not say that.

Mr Sikatana: It is not possible and cannot work in any field of budgeting for intelligence. You cannot temper with what you have already been told that in order to be safe, we need to pay for services. Therefore, my submission is that it is dangerous to tread on this ground because we will be forced to ask the Leader of the House for particulars. The criterion he used to reach at his figures is not clear. Next, we may move to the Northern Province and remove from agriculture, K1 billion. You cannot do that because even the blind will say what you have given me is not salt when he tastes it.

Now, in this case, I appeal to this House to oppose the proposed amendment without reservations.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much. I am, now, getting very worried that a long standing Member of this House can want me to come out and state where the money for services is going. I cannot believe it.

However, if he wishes me to do that, Sir, I could, to some extent, but I cannot sacrifice the security of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Take for example one particular service that we need to pay for. State visits are a very expensive business. You may have a Head of State who wants to bring, maybe, 200 or so security people like in the case of last year when the Presidents came here. I left Government house to go out to give room to a visiting President who had 3,000 people. They put tents outside the house where I live and went into my next building, which Hon. Nawakwi had occupied when she was in Government. 

Regarding Hon. Nawakwi, I did say when I started the policy statement that part of the business of Zambia Intelligence Security Services is to provide security intelligence to any ministry or department of Government, including the armed forces and the police service and that is how they work. They collect intelligence and give it to the armed forces. Now, you think that they will be collecting intelligence by staying in a club here in Lusaka? They have to be where the problem is and they are the first ones to go before the army moves. I am terribly disappointed, Sir. I did not believe that a person of that experience in this House could come up with a question like that.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

The Chairman: Before I put the question, let me explain. This amendment is coming from the opposition, so, they are the ones defending and the ruling party is opposing. I hope I have made myself clear?

Question put and negatived.

Vote 78/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: We are, now, moving to provincial administration. 

We have nine provinces. I will ask one back-bencher from each province to state the negative side of the development. You have discussed roads, hospitals, bridges, schools and many other items, which will just be a repetition in the provinces. Thereafter, I will ask the Deputy Minister for the province to give the side of the Government and what they are doing about the development in the province. After we have finished, His Honour the Vice-President will summarise and then we shall move to figures.

Mr Situmbeko: Mr Chairman, while I agree with you on how we should debate the provinces, giving only one person a chance to debate on what is happening in the province will not be adequate. Mr Chairman, if you could increase that number to, maybe, three or four. One person’s mind can never capitulate what is happening in the whole province. So, there is need, Mr Chairman, to increase the number from one to three so that hon. Members should express to this Government what is required in each district.

The Chairman: Mr Situmbeko, you have been in this House before. You know that what is obtaining in the provinces is what you have already discussed under ministries. First and foremost, some of you who have made maiden speeches have identified the areas which need development in your constituencies, districts and in the provinces as a whole. Under the Ministry of Works and Supply, you have talked about roads and everything. So, you will see that you will just be repeating yourselves. There is nothing new that you will bring up. You have already discussed many things. So, even if I allow ten hon. Members from each province, you will just be hammering the drum on the same spot. You will not expand it.



The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Chairman, the Government has received a petition from seventy-six hon. Members of this august House on the perceived concealment of the budgetary provision for the office of district administrators in the 2002 Budget. Following this, we had a discussion on the matter with a good number of hon. Members of Parliament in the National Assembly Auditorium. As Indicated, the Government wishes to issue a statement to clear the air on the matter.

Mr Chairman, the need to have a link between the Central Government and local authorities at district level was long recognised. During the colonial era, we had district commissioners and after independence, especially during the Second Republic, we had district governors who acted as the eyes of the Government at district level. Initially, during the Third Republic, we did not have any Central Government presence at district level. However, the need to have representation of Central Government at district level, to coordinate development programmes, was recognised in due course. It was with this recognition that the then Republican President appointed district administrators to coordinate both economic and political programmes at district level.

The overall objective of establishing the office of district administrator was to facilitate the coordination of the Central Government functions and all developmental activities as well as harmonise these functions with those of the local authorities in order to ensure effective implementation of development programmes at district level.

Mr Chairman, the intention of having Central Government representation at district level is good and cannot be over-emphasised. However, the office of the district administrator, in its present form, is unsustainable and the current serving officers are perceived to advance partisan interests and not developmental issues for the benefit of all the people, regardless of their party affiliations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: As a result of this perception, His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., issued a directive to all serving district administrators who hold party positions to either resign their Civil Service position or party position because district administrators are public officers who are not expected to be involved in partisan politics. He further called for a national debate and requested the civil society and hon. Members of Parliament, including Hon. Hachipuka, and, indeed, all stakeholders, to make contributions on how districts should be managed. To this end, Cabinet Office requested members of the public, through the media, to send their contributions to Cabinet Office.

The President also directed that in the interim, the following was to apply:

1.    District administrators are civil servants who will operate under Public Service General Orders.

2.    District administrators will not hold any political office and those holding political office must relinquish those positions or resign from the Public Service.

3.    The Secretary to the Cabinet was directed to implement the directive within the confines of the Public Service regulations.

Mr Chairman, following this pronouncement by the Republican President, the district administrators were given thirty days in which to indicate their preference to the President to enable the public service evaluate the suitability of each one of them to be a district administrator.

Mr Chairman, I can see four ex-governors here. Even Hon. Hachipuka was a governor. Mr Chairman, the Government did not hide the allocation for district administration in the Budget. Please, we have not hidden the allocation for district administration in the Budget.

The annual allocation for district administrators is K9.4 billion and is reflected in provincial headquarters allocations, as we knew that the office of district administrators was going to be recognised. The amounts allocated to district administration which were added to provincial headquarters budgets were as follows, if you are interested.

Province    Office    Amount Allocated
Lusaka     District Administration    K678.2 million
Copperbelt    District Administration    K1,236.5 million
Central    District Administration    K973.4 million
Northern     District Administration    K1,952.3 million
Western    District Administration    K1,167.1 million
Eastern    District Administration    K1,108.6 million
Luapula    District Administration    K768.6 million
North-Western Province    District Administration    K737.9 million
Southern Province    District Administration    K921.6 million

Mr Chairman, it should be noted that whether District Administrators positions were to be abolished, payments would have to be made in accordance with the contracts given to them. In addition, the successors to DAs will also need to be paid because the idea is that Central Government must keep a link with the district. So, they may go but that link will still be there. Therefore, there will be no savings realised and more funds would be required if their contracts were terminated. Where they have resigned their Civil Service jobs, the administrative officers will act in their place until the nation decides on the best way of administering districts. So, your input, hon. Members of this august House, is very important.

Sir, in future, districts will be administered by the civil servants suitably qualified and will be appointed by the Public Service Commission.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel (Lusaka-Central): I have listened very attentively to what His Honour the Vice-President has just said. I am glad that he has made the statement that was required. However, I wish to categorically state that transparency is paramount in the way the Budget is presented. I am on record, in this House, on several occasions, and I say it with utmost respect and I hold the man with integrity, but if you look at the Budget line, the page on district administrators in each province, Sir, says zero. His Honour the Vice-President, at our instigation because of our petition, has, now, clarified where that money is. We found it before he told us.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Patel: Yes, we wrote the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on March 13th 2002.

Now, my issue is this, Sir, that we need a decentralisation policy in our country and we agreed to that. What the President is trying to do is correct this matter but we must first agree on the decentralisation policy. We must agree on how it is going to work and how it is going to be headed. You are trying to do things in reverse. You want us to keep the position of district administrator and meanwhile, debate how to proceed with it.


Mr Patel: What we are saying is that when we agree on the exact decentralisation policy that is going to be implemented in our country and on this position, this year, we can then incorporate district administrators in next year’s Budget. Until such a time, No. 

Now, the other argument on the side of the Government which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning put forward was that even if he abolishes that office, he had a contract with all these people who were appointed at the discretion of the President under Article 61 of the Constitution where he is allowed to create public offices. Right now, …

Mr Kunda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: You are annoying us now.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kunda: Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order. In terms of Article 61 of the Constitution of Zambia, the President has a prerogative to appoint or create offices. This is the prerogative of the President and the President created the Office of District Administrator.

Hon. Member: Point of order!

Mr Kunda: Is the hon. Member for Lusaka Central in order to debate an issue which is a prerogative of the President?

Mr Patel: Why do you want the money from us then?

Mr Kunda: I need your ruling, Sir. 

The Chairman: The Constitution is very explicit. The creation and abolition of offices for the Republic are the preserves of the President. They are not subject to debate in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Two examples which we are all aware of …


The Chairman: The President has abolished the Ministry Without Portfolio and the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources. He has also created certain offices at State House and another one at Foreign Affairs and the appointee, Dr Inonge Mbikusita-Lewanika, was ratified by you. Nobody questioned the creation of this position.

Hon. Opposition Members: We did not ratify that position.

The Chairman: That was the prerogative of the President. Okay, you did not ratify that.

So, the creation of district administrators and the abolition of their office must be left in the hands of the President and must not be a subject for debate in this House.

I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Well, let us ignore the powers that the President does inherently have on the Constitution.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Patel: What I mean is that …


Mr Patel: Yes, I do agree that He has the powers and I am simply agreeing with the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs.


Mr Patel: So, what I am saying, now, is that you are still seeking authority from this legislature for public funds, Sir. Therefore, we must be able to debate it.

Mr Kunda: If you refuse, what are we going to do?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Patel: Unless you have the authority to find money elsewhere and the Constitution does not provide for that.

Mr Kunda: If we refuse.

Mr Patel: If you feel that you have that authority, why come here for the money? So, we will debate it.

Sir, to keep the debate short, clear and precise, you do not have a substantial decentralisation policy on the table. You have not discussed a decentralisation policy in detail. You have called for such a debate for six months …

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: … and until we have held such a debate and concluded it, it would be irrational to appoint the heads of such administration. I, therefore, propose and suggest to all my hon. Members on this side of the House to go by every amendment on every province as proposed.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: When we debate provincial administration, what are the problems relating to development? Those are the issues which must be raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: DAs!

The Chairman: On district administrators, I have already made a ruling, that is not for debate here.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Order!

That is not an issue for us to debate. I have made a ruling already. You can take this matter elsewhere. I want to listen to people who are interested in the development of their provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Is there anybody from Lusaka Province who would like to talk about Lusaka? Any Member of Parliament from Lusaka Province.

Miss Nawakwi indicated to speak.

The Chairman: Hon. Nawakwi, you are not from Lusaka Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: She is from Munali!

The Chairman: She is from Nakonde, she is just squatting in Munali.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, she is from Munali!

Hon. Government Members: From Nakonde!


Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, I am Member of Parliament for Munali and I thought Munali was in Lusaka Province.

The Chairman: All right, carry on!

Miss Nawakwi: I am the only Member of Parliament whose votes were more than the President’s.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Sixty-eight thousand voters live in a place called Munali. Although they live in Kalikiliki, in Lusaka Province, their life styles are like those who are living very far from the capital city. There is no running water, roads and shelter. Mr Chairman, it is a shame that at this hour in our development history, we could have money being spent on luxury when people are living in squalor and temporary shelter. 

If you look at some of the institutions in my constituency, for example, the University of Zambia, you will find that the conditions and state of the infrastructure is really a matter that requires the attention of the Human Rights Commission. It is for that reason, Mr Chairman, that I think that the Government should take a critical look at where we need to spend State resources, whether it is in financing a luxurious office in a town like Lusaka to administer the city, or to take that money and put it in the refurbishment of the infrastructure at the University of Zambia. 

I, personally, would expect that the priorities in Lusaka Province should go, first and foremost, towards supporting the people at Chainama Hills Hospital or at Natural Resources Development College or Kamanga. If you go to Kamanga, hon. Minister, and look at the allocation for water for Lusaka Province, it is pathetic. And yet, more than 10,000 people in Kamanga compound share one tap. 

We in Munali are so embarrassed to be living next to something called PHI. There are more taps at this so-called PHI than you find in Mtendere. The people who thought they could put taps in the wilderness so that we could walk from Mtendere to somewhere near Chainama Hills Hospital to draw water, surely must re-examine their development policies.

It is for that reason that in the wisdom of Government to decentralise, we require a proper decentralisation policy so that, perhaps, by next year, we can have these provincial Votes being allocated more money than at the centre. You will notice that whether you are in Lusaka Province, for example, Mr Chairman, Lusaka Province, Labour and Factories Inspectorate has K77 million. Mr Chairman, the people at the grassroots who need to do the work have no money. If you look at all the departments under the provincial administration, Culture and Social Services has been given K35 million and Social Development – K58 million. My honourable Colleague from Lusaka Central talked about decentralisation policy, Sir, we want district budgeting and when you call for district budgeting, then you need a proper decentralisation policy. When you decentralise, you need good Government and good administration. The calibre of staff in districts, those who are administering districts, whether they are called district animals or …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Miss Nawakwi: I withdraw the word, I can see that it is not palatable to the other side. There are some words we have been banned from using and so, we are trying to coin new words. 

Mr Chairman, the calibre of staff administering the welfare of people in a town like Lusaka where you have almost 2.5 million people is totally unacceptable. There is absolutely no way that we can have people who are simply party cadres, not qualified to manage the affairs of Lusaka, starting to manage our affairs. It is for that reason that we want a change. Change is a modified continuity of what has been.

You have said, ‘New Deal with change’; we want a change in the way our affairs in Lusaka are administered. Honestly, Lusaka is a home to diplomats from several countries, you have the IMF office in this town, you have the World Bank office in this town, and I do not believe that the people who have been charged with a responsibility to administer the affairs of this town are even capable to negotiate for fire tenders. 

I do not believe that the people charged with the responsibility of looking after our welfare can even talk to first year students at the University of Zambia. That is the point we are talking about.

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

Miss Nawakwi: I do not believe that the people charged with the administration of Lusaka Province, Lusaka District in particular, have any idea of what administration is all about. 

The Vice-President: On a point of order.

The Chairman: Continue, please.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Chairman, we want to know what we are taking to our respective constituencies, whether you are going to take development to Shangombo or Kaputa, when we wind up this Budget. That is the key point, decentralisation is important and in your decentralisation policy, I think that management is key. We agree that we must change and the President says we have to debate, but until we have that debate, the Vote must be put on hold.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: It must be put on hold.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: The hon. Leader of the House knows that the reason behind the creation of these offices is very clear, to try and decentralise. But half way through the road, they were used for political gains. It is important that we reverse a mistake and not make it continue with us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: We think that it was important that we take development to Shangombo and Mufumbwe and we need qualified people. If you look at each district, you will find that there is a District Medical Officer, District Agricultural Officer, or a District Education Officer and, Mr Chairman, these are highly qualified persons who cannot continue to subject themselves to the kind of administration that we have in places like Lusaka Province where Lusaka District is found.

Indeed, Sir, I would like to support my hon. Colleague from Lusaka Central that we are not supporting this Vote on district administrators.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Order! Hon. Members, I feel sad. The two Members who have spoken have been Members of this House for the last ten years and have been Cabinet Ministers.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

The Chairman: They know the procedures very well. Now, instead of assisting in settling down the new Members in this House, they have kept sending wrong signals. So, our colleagues who have come here for the first time might have the impression that this is the pattern or norm, which is totally wrong. They should be the first people to tell every new Member that prerogatives of the President are these and are not debatable and questionable. If they want to question them, they should find some other means and not this Chamber.


The Chairman: Order! I have already made a ruling that once a position has been created by the President or nullified by him, we, as Members of Parliament, constitutionally, have no right to discuss it.


The Chairman: It is a constitutional requirement. 


The Chairman: Hold on, I am here to guide you. I am not going to allow anybody to talk about the position of district administrators.


The Chairman: Those who are following – if you want to talk about district administrators can talk about their performance, you can criticise their performance but if you think in terms of abolishing the position, that is not within our scope of responsibilities.


The Chairman: We have done Lusaka, two people have debated, we can, now, have the hon. Minister to wind up.


Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of clarification.


Hon. Member: Tampo kulanda.

The Chairman: Order! You know I am allowing such things because – yes my good friend, what do you want?

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of clarification. We have been sent to this House by the people out there …


Mr Shakafuswa: Excuse me, I did not come to this House to listen to the MMD, but to represent my people. I have been sent by the people and I am acting as their mouthpiece. There are things they sent me to speak in this House and if I am going to be curtailed, then there is no need of me being here. I come here to speak on behalf of the people.

Interruptions. {mospagebreak}

The Chairman: Order! I explained at the beginning that there are nine provinces. We cannot allow everybody elected in Lusaka Province to speak. I explained that some of the things you are going to discuss you have already discussed them. You will not bring any new ideas at all, you will just talk about same things …

Hon. Members: How do you know!


The Chairman: Order! If you are not prepared to listen, then I better keep quiet.

Mr Shakafuswa: Good, then we shall speak on behalf of the people comfortably.

The Chairman: I am taking all this pain because a good number of you have come here for the first time and I appreciate that. So, do not forget that it is uniform. The hon. Minister for Lusaka Province, please, wind up.

Mrs Masebo: Clarification?

The Chairman: No more points of clarification. Thank you. 


Hon. Member: Akulanda, wimininefye?

The Deputy Minister for Lusaka Province (Mr Ngoma): Mr Chairman, it gives me great pleasure …

Miss Sialumba: What pleasure?

Hon. Government Members: Just go ahead.

Mr Ngoma: … to have been accorded this opportunity to address this august House on matters concerning finances of the provincial administration of Lusaka.


Mrs Masebo left the Chamber.

Mr Chisala: Bye!

Mr Ngoma: In the first instance, Sir, I would wish to thank His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., for his opening speech …


Mr Ngoma: … in this Parliament. I would also like to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde) for his good Budget Speech for the year 2002.

Hon. Member: Talk about Lusaka Province.

Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairman, I also wish to thank the President for appointing me as Minister for Lusaka Province in the New Deal.


Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairman, the mission of the province remains to promote, support, coordinate and monitor all development activities and ensure the provision of goods  and services and the reduction of poverty. Lusaka Province is the capital province of the country with the City of Lusaka housing the seat of Government. The province is allocated between latitude 27 and 30 east and latitude 14 and 16 south. It shares boundaries with Central Province in the north, Eastern Province in the east and Southern Province in the south. 


Mr Ngoma: The province also shares international …

The Chairman: Order! I have already said that we do not stop hon. Members from consulting each other, but please do not do it when the Minister is delivering his speech. You are free to walk out, you have so many rooms and sitting places where you can sit and discuss comfortably but do not do it in the Chamber.

Will the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Ngoma: The province also shares international boundaries with Zimbabwe in the south and Mozambique in the south east. Mr Chairman, in the 2002 fiscal year, the province has been allocated a total amount of K8,191,463,649 as compared to K8,400,723,189 allocated in the year 2001 of which a sum of K8,188,625,157 was released leaving a balance of K212,098,032. The budget for this year is K3,490,880,592 a percentage of 42.6 for personal emoluments. Mr Chairman, K1,900,583,057, a percentage of 23.2 for recurrent departmental charges and K2,800 000 0000, a percentage of 34.18, are earmarked for poverty reduction programmes. The allocation can further be broken into K992,591,934 for the administrative sector, K2,602,824,618 for the Economic Sector and K1,105,166,505 for the social sector.

Mr Chairman, under micro-projects and working with the local community, Lusaka Province was advanced with more than K12 billion for the 1,160 projects of which 684 falls in the education sector, sixteen in the health sector, 21 in the water and sanitation sector and 387 for other projects.

Mr Chairman, with the launch of the Zambia Social Investment Fund (ZAMSIF) in 2000, the province has strengthened its coordination and monitoring role for development activities through both the Provincial Development Coordinating Committees and the District Development Coordinating Committee (DDCC) in order to reduce poverty. Since the scope of ZAMSIF is wider than that of the predecessor, Micro-Project Unit, with its focus being on major district and community projects, the province will within this be required to improve the capacity of district councils’ coordinating role in both districts and community projects.

The province will also continue to promote community participation in development, especially through ZAMSIF by involving communities in projects and identification and implementation and management so that all are targeted towards addressing critical needs of the local community. The province will also endeavour to encourage investors both local and foreign to invest in the province through the provision of necessary infrastructure and logistic support.

Mr Chairman, the province will also support the National Housing Authority within the province in every way possible to ensure an increase of the housing stocks as well as the empowerment of local communities with shelter. Efforts will be made in facilitating progress in a newly identified housing complex site in Makeni and Mandevu. The province will also continue opening up and preparing more land in new sites in Kafue and Chilanga while small sites will also be opened in Chongwe and Luangwa later this year. African Housing Funds will extend its activities from Linda Compound to Freedom Compound in Chilanga to provide affordable housing.

Mr Chairman, since we did not receive any questions or queries as a province, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pwele: (Roan): Mr Chairman, Copperbelt Province has a lot of problems, especially in terms of roads …

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 2015 hours until 2030 hours.

Mr Pwele: Mr Chairman, before going for break, I was putting across a point that in the Copperbelt Province there are a lot of problems. For a long time, roads have not been repaired. Workers have not been given their terminal benefits. Companies were privatised without even giving the employees their terminal benefits. Most of them have left employment without their money. They are still fighting for their money. Companies have collapsed. 

Mr Chairman, in hospitals in the Copperbelt Province, there are no drugs, especially Roan Hospital in my constituency. It is deserted today as I am talking. There are no doctors. They have all left.

So, any leader in this country, before making a decision, should, first of all, analyse the situation. For example, ask yourself whether whatever you want to do will be fair for the people in that constituency or place. How do you introduce a new position while other people are languishing with hunger? It was very unfair to introduce the post of district administrator during the time when we were going into elections. To us in my constituency, it is irrelevant because it was introduced because of elections. To us, they are party cadres.

The Chairman: Order! Are you criticising the establishment of the office of the DA? If that is the case, you are out of order. If you can criticise the performance of DAs, I will allow you to continue.

Will the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Pwele: Mr Chairman, I was trying to emphasise the point that certain positions have come without consideration of the suffering that the people are going through. That is why I made that reference. It is not criticising. It is an example.

Sir, as we are talking, companies have closed down. You look at RAMCOZ, up to now, people have not been paid. When something happens, you say these people are stubborn. They are not because even you, Mr Chairman, you cannot stay for five months without receiving your salary. 

So, these are some of the things that we have to look at very seriously. It is not just a question of supporting blindly. We are here to build the nation. When you make an appointment, you will even know that, at least, this money would have bought drugs for hospitals, it would have paid, at least, one or two people who have retired and it would have maintained the roads. If we can play the game like that, I am sure the roads will be maintained and the hospitals will have drugs. But doing things blindly is like we are killing others and ourselves.

So, Mr Chairman, I am even surprised why the people of Copperbelt Province voted for MMD because it has gone down.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Pwele: I am telling you the truth. The people who voted for MMD on the Copperbelt thought by voting for MMD, they were going to be all right and that the companies would be reinstated and they will be given their title deeds. Most of these people were cheated. These MMD people told them that if they vote for them, the companies would be reinstated and they would be given title deeds. Where are the title deeds? The roads are full of potholes. We are not here just to support anyhow, we are here to analyse the situation and solve problems our people are facing. It is not just a question of supporting blindly. That is why this country has gone down in the past and we have to be ashamed. Three quarters of the hon. Members of Parliament from the Copperbelt Province came from MMD and you assisted in the last ten years to destroy and plunder the economy of this country.

The Chairman: Order! My young parliamentarian there said I am here for this purpose and I agree with him. I am not going to get tired of guiding you.

What you are propounding, now, should have come under other Votes. We are dealing with developmental projects in each province and that is what we are interested in. This is the chance to tell His Honour the Vice-President what developmental projects are required in your provinces.

Elections and who won where are history. When you go back to your constituency, you are not going to talk about your party manifestoes. The electorate will not listen to you. They will want you to tell them what developmental projects you are taking to your constituencies. That is what they are expecting you to do. You will have to tell them what the Government is planning to do in your constituencies. You are not going to tell them that MMD was not supposed to be voted into power. They will not listen to you. Let us discuss developmental projects. If you do not have anything to talk about, you should sit down and somebody else will debate.

Will you, please, continue.

Mr Pwele: I was making a reference on roads. Why have roads not been maintained? Somebody should have the answer. So, I asking the Government to find some sources of money so that roads can be maintained and drugs for hospitals procured. These are some of the reasons which I am trying to put forward. People were cheated. The problems that the people are facing on the Copperbelt have not been solved. People have been retrenched without being paid and you give the money to other people. When we have problems in provinces, it means we do not have money.

The hon. Minister for Copperbelt Province knows all the problems that we are facing. The province is in trouble. If a person comes from Luanshya and does not talk about the problems, then there is something wrong in his head because even the hon. Minister knows that there are a lot of problems in Luanshya. Bridges have been blown up by the people they called investors. There are some people here who were in the forefront to private RAMCOZ that company, but today, they do not want to solve the problems. When people rise up, you will start saying the people of Luanshya are rude.

We are talking about the problems that we are facing. Roads have not been maintained. People have not been given terminal benefits.

Hon. Government Member: Fyafula!

Mr Pwele: Please, do not make me sit down quickly. Those lights there dictate.

We are not here to appease anybody. We should talk about the problems that we are facing. We should talk about where to find money to solve these problems. Some of you people here are nominated and you have just come here and be promoted to be Ministers wrongly. You did not even campaign. So, do not answer and learn to be quite.

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chisala: Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan in order to just talk about Luanshya instead of him addressing the Copperbelt? Can somebody else represent the Copperbelt instead of Mr Pwele. I need your guidance, Sir.

The Chairman: The hon. Member for Roan is angry. I do not know who he is angry with.


The Chairman: Now, instead of appealing to the hon. Minister to assist him with his problems, he is condemning everybody. It is only a mother who is going to tolerate a child who picks up a stone and hits her. But some other people will also reciprocate in a similar manner, which is not good. If you want assistance from hon. Ministers, whether you like it or not, they are the Government and they are the ones who have got the instruments of authority. You are just there to represent the people and you have to present the view of the people and the hon. Ministers will take note of that. But when you have an aggressive attitude, they may not listen and then you will reduce yourself to a parrot – the bird that sings and nobody listens to it. If you passionately appeal to them, they will take note of what you are saying and take care of your requests.

So, you must debate in such a manner that you capture their sympathy, …


The Chairman: You do not ask people by annoying them.


The Chairman: Order!


The Chairman: Will you continue, please.

Mr Pwele: Thank you, Mr Chairman. To speak the truth, to be paid your terminal benefits is not a favour. You worked for that money and someone does not want to pay you. Really, is it a favour to ask for money that you worked for? And you tell me today that I should be pleading with them to pay us. That is a violation of human rights. 


Mr Pwele: You should understand because I worked for that money. We are not begging from them. No. 

Hon. Government Members: Aah.

Mr Pwele: You are the ones who privatised. Mr Zimba, you were there and you are a culprit. You were very irresponsible during the time of Chiluba. You are a very irresponsible human being. I am actually sorry that Mr Mwanawasa has chosen you back. You should have gone completely.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Nzowa: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to add to what my colleagues have said.

Mr Chairman, Copperbelt was at one time the most industrialised province in the nation and was also the centre of attraction. Anyone who finished school in a remote area or village thought of going to the Copperbelt to look for a job. But now, it is the other way round. 

Mr Chairman, our roads, like my brother said, are the worst. We have seen a situation where our colleagues in the midlands, all the roads even in the townships, have been done. But when you go to the Copperbelt, you cannot even go to a township. You have to leave your car somewhere else and then walk to the township and visit your relatives. The road network and the programme that you have for rehabilitation of roads should be extended to the Copperbelt because, right now, some of the areas are not accessible. The mini-buses will stop before you reach the station, you will be forced to disembark and walk the other portion of your trip. We need to revisit the roads. It is not only feeder roads but even roads in townships should be worked on.

Mr Chairman, I would like to talk about the markets. We have seen where our colleagues in Lusaka are enjoying modern structures. We have seen very beautiful markets being put up in Lusaka. We have that mammoth structure, City Market. We have a new, modern and clean market in Woodlands. The other one at Kamwala is being built. On the Copperbelt, we have big trading areas that are in a shambles. There is no order at markets if you go to the Copperbelt. Main Masala in Ndola is the biggest market on the Copperbelt but if you go there, you cannot walk. It is filthy. There are no toilets. People help themselves anywhere. They have not been given those facilities. The market was built in the colonial days. What is happening, now, is that all empty places around the Main Masala Market have been given to marketeers. They are just putting up stalls in a very unplanned and confused manner. It is for this reason that we should do what the hon. Minister said last time, urban renewal. We must put up structures so that people are able to trade decently. People should be able to buy vegetables in a clean environment. But as it is at Main Masala now, an epidemic can break out any time.

Mr Chairman, I wish to continue to comment on one thing which the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport debated. I was not here when they debated that Vote. But I wish to bring this to his attention that the mobile phone providers, Telecel and Celtel are robbing people. They are stealing money. The reception on the Copperbelt is bad. You have to climb a tree to get good reception and yet you got the units in dollars. If you have to pick a signal, you have to stand at an angle. For Telecel, for about three weeks - I can give you the time it is in my diary - most people lost their units and we would like the hon. Minister to issue a ministerial statement to stop these people charging in dollars. My background is that I worked for Zamtel until you fired me for standing as a Member of Parliament. I was a Zamtel worker. I come from that background. There is no dollar involved when you are making a local call because the call will pass through local exchanges. You only pay in dollars when you are transiting through other exchanges outside the country. Then why should we allow them to charge Zambians in dollars when they are not paying Zamtel in dollars?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: We want this to stop. For any international call, I have no problem because they have to pay what we call foreign administration for transiting the call through foreign exchanges. We need to stop this. Some of you colleagues do not know how these people operate, for Telecel or Celtel. Go and look at their equipment. It is just a small box of computer and then they plug it in to Zamtel. 

They are using our infrastructure here and yet Zamtel cannot charge what they are charging. You stopped Zamtel to charge. Now, what they have done is that they have overloaded the circuit they have hired. They have overloaded such that during lunch, if it is Celtel, you cannot ring your friend. There is an engagement tone or busy tone. Why should it be like that? We have you in that office, the Communications Authority that supervises all telecom providers in the nation has been compromised. I am sorry to say this but that is why we have briefcase people who come in with small computers charging dollars. They will recoup their money within six months.

Most of you here are businessmen. There is what we call returns on capital employed or capital invested. Honestly, what type of businesses can recoup its huge investment within six months? Because when they come in the country like these two providers, each one pledged twenty million dollars as investment. You go and supervise and ask them which equipment they brought, you will be surprised that the equipment is not even one million dollars. They are lying. They are making pledges that they are not fulfilling. It is time we got to them. You can call VODACOM and others. These briefcase men should go back. Their conditions of service for workers are bad. When they came in, they poached people from ZAMTEL. They never trained anyone. All the engineers are from ZAMTEL. And some of them are being fired at the gate. I handled a case in which one of the senior black managers was fired at the gate replaced by a white boy. A boy who qualifies by that definition of Hon. …

Hon Opposition Member: Kazala-Laski.

Mr Nzowa: No, our Minister of Youth said between twenty and twenty-five years. A youth to replace a Zambian! So, Mr Chairman, I am appealing against abuse, we cannot be exploited by these people. We want you to move in. Stop the dollar thing. Stop their circuit, because they are not renting now. They are scared to pay ZAMTEL more money for renting more circuits but they do not care about you. They have overloaded the circuit. When they can handle only fifty thousand customers, they will say one hundred and fifty thousand because they know you cannot argue. So, I am appealing to your office, hon. Minister of Communications and Transport to move in quickly. 

Thank you, Sir.

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the two hon. Members of Parliament, Hon. Pwele and Hon. Nzowa, for bringing out those important issues. I have taken note of their sentiments and I am pledging that we shall work on all the points they have brought out. Before I conclude, I would like to remind Hon Pwele to visit Luanshya, Roan Constituency, so that you see the problems of RAMCOZ. You go and talk to the workers and their wives, instead of leaving it to the hon. Minister, so that you will be able to know their problems. 


Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: You have not been there. We did not see you there. Otherwise, Mr Chairman, thank you very much. 

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa rose.

The Chairman: You wanted to debate Lusaka. Now, the Floor is yours.


Hon Opposition Member: Shakafuswa!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): I thank you for giving me this opportunity to talk on behalf of the people of Central Province. Firstly, Sir,…

Hon Opposition Member: Bauze Mwana.

Mr Shakafuswa: ... I want to thank you for your timely advice on the Vote on district administrators. Your advice has come very timely and, I wonder what help the President of this country, President Mwanawasa, SC., is going to get. He asked us to debate it well, so that we can advise him on how to go about it.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon Opposition Member: Even Mabenga aliko, kamba mwana. Kamba mwana.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, I want to say that the issue of district administrators is not an issue that we should be scared to talk about. It is an issue that has affected all of us in one way or another. 

Yes, I support that there should be decentralisation of authority and yes, I agree that there should be Government persons at district level. But it has to be done in a proper manner. District administrators’ appointment was done in bad faith and we want to help Levy Mwanawasa correct it.

The Vice-President: President Levy Mwanawasa, iwe.

Mr Shakafuswa: We want to help President Mwanawasa correct it.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Thank you, Your Honour, for the correction.

Sir, the position of district administrators is supposed to be that of a civil servant but we have politicians. It is not only on this bench, even among you there are some people who agree with us that we should have people who are capable of delivering. You cannot get a ng’wang’wazi from Kamwala Bus Stop to become a district administrator when he does not understand what developmental activities are. We are saying yes we need it but, because of the calibre of people that we have got, we should put it on hold and allow the President to appoint people of high calibre, people who are going to support him … 

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: … so that his ideas to develop this nation get to the people because if we put people who cannot assimilate, people who cannot analyse, …

Hon Opposition Member: Who cannot read.

Mr Shakafuswa: ... who cannot read, what are we doing to help the nation? We are doing a disservice to the nation.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairman, if someone makes a mistake, it is this august House where we have sworn allegiance to this nation and to the President where we can advise the latter on the right way to go. 

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: If we are going to come here and rubber stamp wrong decisions, history is going to judge us very harshly. I want to go down history because I know most of the people here want to go into history as people who stood in this House and made decisions that were in the best interest of Zambians. 

Hon Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Shakafuswa: All of us agree, including His Honour the Vice-President. Sir, Central Province is rich with agricultural land, if only we can have capable people, who understand the needs of the people, it would be rich. Today, it is very embarrassing. Maybe, other people are happy. But I and my people whom I represent, and the people of Central Province are annoyed that we cannot use our land to feed ourselves. If we had capable people, we were supposed to know that we were going to have bad rain in two years. We have the Meteorological Department who can forecast that. If we had responsible people, we would have lots of silos, which today, have become carpentry shops and brick-making facilities. We could have those facilities storing maize for food security for the nation. That has to do with the calibre of people you put in offices. If the calibre is that of one who wants to parrot the master’s voice even if what the master is doing is wrong, we will not go anywhere.

Mr Chairman, we want somebody who is going to understand that the burden of life of the people in rural areas has to be eased. In our areas, Mkushi, Katuba and Mumbwa, the people today, have been left to the grace of God.


Mr Shakafuswa: I am above that. We have to talk to them. They need proper facilities. They belong to this nation. They need proper water and sanitation. Our people need proper health facilities, proper road infrastructure so that, if they produce, they are able to access the markets. We need electrification and other things. In Central Province, there is only one secondary school in Chibombo District and Katuba which has a population of 50,000. People have no economic resources to be able to send their children to Mumbwa or Chipembi. Let us feel kind to these people. Let us not have ng’wang’wazi, but somebody who is going to think and look for ways in which he is going to ease the burden of these people. 


Mr Shakafuswa: You ask the district administrators. What we need in Katuba, which has a population of 50,000 people, is a secondary school. What quality of education are we talking about for our kids? Are we jamming them so that tomorrow if we say development, we have got no one who is going to understand development? It is very dangerous because we can talk about development but if we do not impart development to our people, no one is going to carry out development.

In Kabwe, we have Mulungushi Dam and there is a hydro-electric project and we want to know who bought it and also whether it was bought in good faith because we have got a feeling that someone just manoeuvred. I am proud to stand here as an opposition Member of Parliament and I have my President who is the President of this land. I am going to stand here and talk, not to appease him. Otherwise, people are not going to benefit from him being President. We are supposed to be here and make sure that he works.


Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Shakafuswa: We want to help the President to constitute his administration with quality people and we are not going to stand here to beg hon. Ministers who are public officials and who are in those offices to serve the people. So, if you want us to beg them, forget it. We have not come here to ask for anything because the resources you are using belong to the people of Zambia and being Zambian and, above all, Members of Parliament representing people, we are going to talk on behalf of our people. We are not going to be compromised by threats of intimidation. We have been put in office to talk on behalf of the people and if you think you are going to intimidate us, forget it and put it in your archives.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this very important Vote for Central Province.

Sir, the first point that I wish to have recorded on the Floor of this House is that Central Province has been, for many years, treated as a Cinderella province in this country. The allocation of resources to this province has been very minimal and yet it plays a very important, key and central role in this country.

Sir, it is in Central Province that we had, as its headquarters, Zambia Railways. It is the same province that was the biggest producer of maize. It is this province that has the greatest amount of cotton production followed by Eastern Province. Central Province is also the most central part of this country. All these very significant points do not reflect proportionately to the amount of resources that are allocated to that province. Very often, we have heard of droughts in this country and no dams are ever allocated to Central Province. We have heard of hunger and the amount of food relief given to Central Province does not compare favourably with that given to other provinces.

Hon. Government Members: Aha!

Mr Shepande: Sir, our appeal is that Central Province is very much a province of this country like other provinces. We need equitable distribution of the nation’s resources. I wish to bring to the attention of his Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development the potential that lies in Central Province in terms of minerals. We have gold and iron ore deposits in Mumbwa, which will, very well, develop the steel industry in this country. These ores have remained untapped, undeveloped and I believe that with the New Deal Government, we are hopeful that serious measures will be taken to develop these mineral resources, especially in Mumbwa District. We also have phosphate there.

Sir, the development of water resources is lagging behind in Central Province. As I said, we have a lot of agricultural potential and our appeal is that when the Government is considering the construction of dams, Central Province should be on the top priority in terms of allocation of these resources. 

Road infrastructure, Sir, is the worst in this country as far as Central Province is concerned. Roads have never been graded for ages. In fact, in most of these areas the last time our roads were graded was during the UNIP Government.

Hon. UNIP Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shepande: In the last ten years, our roads have never tasted a grader. The communication from Kabwe to the Luano Valley is extremely poor. Our roads from Lusaka, Mumbwa, Kaoma and Mongu is in such a state that one wonders whether we have people in high offices, coming from these areas and whether those people pass through these roads.

Mr Situmbeko: They fly.

Mr Shepande: Whether they fly, I do not even know because there are no aircraft and I do not know what Hon. Mabenga uses to fly. Maybe, there are those special aeroplanes …


Mr Shepande: Sir, the question of roads is really an eyesore in our province and I do hope that my good brother and colleague, Hon. Chola, the Deputy Minister, will have time to go round with us on these roads, of course, at Government expense to go and inspect and fill the potholes that we feel on these roads.

Sir, we have had a disaster and I am sure the hon. Deputy Minister for Central Province must have heard that Nambala High School suffered some devastating wind, which blew off the entire school roof and I do hope that some contingency funds can be raised quickly to rehabilitate that school.

On cattle development, Sir, in this country agriculture is being given priority and I believe that alongside that is the question of cattle development. Central Province ranks very highly in addition to Southern Province and some parts of Eastern Province …

Mr Sibetta: Western.

Mr Shepande: … and, of course, Western Province with long-horned breeds. We need dams for water for these cattle, veterinary services and also dip tanks. All these are issues which can be planned for at provincial level.

Sir, the development of Zambia can start nowhere else other than at the ward, constituency, district and provincial levels.

So, it is important for us to forecast our development plans at these smaller units because their totality adds up to the development of the whole country.

Sir, electrification is one area that has been talked about by the Government, but no one has mentioned any electrification programmes in the Central Province, in particular, the big concession in Mumbwa. This is a vast tract of land that had been reserved for whites that had fought in the First and Second World wars, which was abandoned because of tse tse fly. The Government, through its efforts, has wiped out the tse tse fly and I think that area needs to be electrified in order that development can be enhanced.

Sir, in conclusion, may I state that resources should not be used on individuals, such as district administrators. Sir, district administrators are held very lowly in the estimation of the general population in this country. Their performance, as leaders in the districts, is dismal. It is regrettable that they are not acceptable and the Government should, therefore, not force district administrators down the throats of the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shepande: They are ill-qualified to perform the tasks that have been assigned to them. They were appointed at the height of the third-term debate. Their existence is, therefore, suspicious, doubtful and condemned. The Government is well advised to abolish the post of district administrator.

The Chairman: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Kalunga (Muchinga): In the first place, Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the MMD Government for one or two things. As a Member of Parliament coming from the Central Province, the MMD Government has put up a very nice road from Kapiri Mposhi to Serenje.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalunga: Sir, it is something the people of the Central Province shall never forget. Mr Chairman, as I go to the Yellow Book, there is a Department of Town and Country Planning and strictly, Mr Chairman, I will talk about Kabwe Town. Mind you, hon. Members of Parliament, it is the Central Province which produced Lusaka Province. We built Lusaka Town. 

Mr Chairman, there is a worrying factor under this Department of Town and Country Planning. We still find shanty compounds being extended even in Kabwe. It will be a sad affair, Mr Chairman, when we may come and reach a stage where to locate where people live will be difficult. Let our town and country planners do their homework, in conjunction, Sir, with the Environmental Council of Zambia. Sir, it does not augur well. Maybe, we could come with a camera and then take a picture of Lusaka, just to find, within the capital city or in a town like Kabwe, shanty compounds extending while country planners are being paid.

My point is that we should be brave enough to advise where it is possible. Certain things do not call for political will. That is why we are qualified for these jobs.

Mr Chairman, let me, now, come to the Road Traffic Commission in Central Province. When one moves from Serenje to Chisamba, he or she come across a lot of roadblocks on the way. One is Kapiri Mposhi. Mr Chairman, you find that there is a roadblock before you reach Kapiri Mposhi Turn Off, that is at the weigh bridge. Immediately after, there is another roadblock. Before you reach Kabwe, there is another famous roadblock, I think that one is good.

Mr Chairman, you wonder what those officers at the weigh bridge do at the roadblock. At times, you might be rushing for parliamentary duties because you are late as you are driving from the farm. I do not know, maybe, they just know the President. Sometimes, they even inconvenience Ministers. Someone who is supposed to be checking on the loading capacity of trucks starts asking you questions like, ‘Sir, where are you from?’ I think the Road Traffic Commission should look at the number of roadblocks in Central Province.

Sir, this applies to the speed traps. Two weeks ago, when I was approaching Liteta, I came cross police officers and I stopped. They had a speed trap on the highway without any sign and one can be caught.

Mr Situmbeko: That is the idea.

Mr Kalunga: I do not think that is the way speed traps are supposed to be used.

Mr Chairman, the Department of Cultural Services have been taken care of well by the MMD Government and has also done enough to promote our cultural ceremonies in Zambia. In Central Province, we have the Chibwela Mushi and another one for our colleagues. Each time Government sends some money for the ceremonies but if we look at the accountability by those in committees, Sir, it is pathetic, to say the least. Let the people responsible for our cultural ceremonies change their attitudes. Visiting chiefs are accommodated but there is no food provided for them. It is unfortunate for chiefs to be treated like that but I praise the Government for providing money for such ceremonies.

Mr Chairman, there is also a Department of Factories. Sir, on this one I would like to have a clarification from the hon. Minister as he comes to wind up because there has been a reduction in the allocation from K9 million to K4 million.

Mr Chairman, Central Province is, indeed, an agricultural-oriented province. The MMD Government, being brave, as it is, has done something wonderful, especially in Serenje. Mr Chairman, we have the Episcopal Church.

The Episcopal Church has educated the people in Serenje on how to keep fish by constructing fish ponds. Sir, this is a nice step in the right direction and I wish at one stage to invite the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to just come and have a look at the progress taking place in Serenje.

On the same topic, agriculture, when I look at the funds under rural investment, I think, just as other hon. Members have said, that there has been a tremendous reduction. I was thinking of an increment because we still have more projects to be done. We need more dams, as Hon. Shepande said, for irrigation and other facilities.

Sir, we have been receiving investors mainly in agriculture, but sadly, most of them are going back. I do not know whether they are going to South Africa or Zimbabwe just after a few years. I think we need to look into this one.

Hon. Government Member: Finally!


Mr Kalunga: In as much as we accept the coming of these investors, Mr Chairman, let them, at least, stay here for some time and assist us in uplifting agriculture in our province.

The Chairman: The hon. Member’s time has expired!

Mr Chola: Mr Chairman, I am grateful for all the sentiments that have been …

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Chola: Pardon?

Hon. Government Members: Forget about them!

Mr Chola: I am grateful, Mr Chairman, for all the sentiments that have been expressed on Central Province. Our role in the province is to implement, coordinate, evaluate and monitor all Government programmes. As such, Mr Chairman, we shall work hard to endeavour that all the sentiments that have been expressed by the various speakers on Central Province, Hon. Shakafuswa, Hon. Shepande and Hon. Kalunga, are taken into account. Whatever has been put in the Yellow Book, we shall try as much as possible to complete project and even work hard to see to it that we can get some funding elsewhere so that those ills that have been mentioned could be taken care of. 

I am very grateful, Mr Chairman.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 93/01 – (Office of the President - Northern Province – Headquarters - K10,343,095,087).

Mr Bwalya (Kasama): Mr Chairman, I am standing here as a sad man because Northern Province is a land of plenty but, at the moment, the people have been made to import mealie-meal from Central and Lusaka provinces. We had INDECO Milling Company but this was sold under the privatisation programme and the man who bought this company decided to transfer it. We do not know whether it is in Kabwe or Lusaka and so, we are suffering. The province has more than one million people and they grow a lot of food and so, we do not understand why people should be suffering. I appeal to the Government to look into this arrangement. I do not know whether this person has paid all the money and the company belongs to him.

Mr Chairman, I wish to inform the hon. Members of the House that for a long time we have only been talking about the line of rail, that is Livingstone to Chililabombwe, but we have another railway line from Kapiri Mposhi to Nakonde. Along this line of rail we have what we call TAZARA Corridor. Vast portions of land have been opened up but for a long time now, we have not had support from the Government. The people who have been given portions of land there are not supported and so, we need access roads into these farming blocks. We need agricultural extension officers to visit the farmers. We also need electricity.

Mr Chairman, we have another problem in the Northern Province. It is a big province and we have a lot of schools but we have a shortage of teachers. We have only one teacher training college. We would like to open another one in the province. We have infrastructure in Chinsali which was abandoned in 1971. I do not know for what reasons. Sir, this was meant to be a police training college but this infrastructure has been left to waste. We need the facility to be turned into a teachers’ college if the Ministry of Home Affairs has no intention of opening a police college there.

Mr Chairman, Northern Province is the largest province, it is 148 square kilometres and the roads in this province are very poor and need to be reconstructed. I have in mind trunk roads, township roads and feeder roads. The Government should also construct bridges on major trunk roads.

Mr Chairman, about three years ago, the Government created new districts. I have in mind Nakonde, Mungwi and Mpulungu but the officers who are working there do not have office and residential accommodation. So, the Government should look into this problem.

Mr Chairman, water supply is a problem. Although the province has a lot of rivers and streams, it looks like every district centre has a problem of water supply. In this respect, we urge the Government to facilitate the formation of a water and sewerage company in the province to be responsible for water supply and sanitation.

Mr Chairman, on the rehabilitation of schools, schools, especially those in far-flung areas like Chief Nabwalya’s area and Chief Chundaponde should be rehabilitated. When it comes to markets, every time when we come to Lusaka to shop, we just marvel at the City Market. In Kamwala they are putting up fantastic structures but in the Northern Province, in Kasama or any other town, we do not have markets. Our people are selling and squatting on the floors while they are selling commodities. We also want to improve the standards of living in our province.

Mr Chairman, on secondary schools, the old policy was that each district should have a secondary school. But we are surprised to see that Chilubi and Kaputa districts, up to now, do not have secondary schools. The children have to travel to Kasama, Mporokoso, Chinsali and all over. As such, I am appealing to the Government that the schools we have abandoned under the World Bank should be completed.

Mr Chairman, when we come to hospitals, I have in mind the Chilubi District. The only referral hospital in Chilubi District is no longer operational and people have to be taken to Lubwe in Luapula for surgery by rolling boats and canoes because the only motor boat operates once a week.

In Chilubi we need canals to be opened up and bridges to link islands so that people can move around.

Mr Chairman, every time we talk about mining, Northern Province does not feature. I am wondering whether we have any minerals in Northern Province. We need a programme for mineral exploration in the province. We do not just want to be farmers but we can also do mining. We need to create employment.

Finally, Mr Chairman, I have the police camp in Kasama that is poorly located. We need this to be moved to another place so that our policemen can also work in comfort.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chiti M Sampa (Mporokoso): Mr Chairman, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote.

Mr Hachipuka interrupted.

Mr Chiti M Sampa: We are two Sampas here. The elder and the younger. My former General Manager, try to give me chance when I am debating.


Mr Chiti M Sampa: Mr Chairman, before I proceed, I am saddened whenever by niece, Hon. Nawakwi, stands to speak in this House. The contributions that she makes tend to help the people in Northern Province.

The Chairman: Do not discuss personalities here. Discuss Northern Province.

Will you, please, continue.

Mr Chiti M Sampa: Mr Chairman, thank you very much for guiding me.

Hon. Members: Saved by the bell!

Mr Chiti M Sampa: Sir, budgets from Northern Province were adjusted downwards by the Minister of Finance and National Planning. In Northern Province, roads are in a very bad shape. All that we need is good roads and rural electrification. For example, in my constituency, Mporokoso, where I am very powerful …


Mr Chiti M Sampa: In Mporokoso District, we have two constituencies, Mporokoso and Lunte where the cool and very intelligent Deputy Minister of …

Mr Hachipuka interjected

Mr Chiti M Sampa: Please, do not interrupt me, Hon. Hachipuka. Just keep quiet.


Mr Chiti M Sampa: Some of our members who stood in those constituencies ran away from Northern Province and came here where roads are good.


Mr Sichinga: Who?

Mr Chiti M Sampa: You.


Mr Chiti M Sampa: Mr Chairman, on agriculture, Mporokoso and Lunte constituencies can produce beans which can feed the whole nation and even export some. 

I am appealing to the hon. Minister, who is a responsible Minister for Northern Province. Out of twenty-one Members of Parliament, we have one veteran as hon. Minister (Mr Lupando Mwape) and the rest are new. There is a political wind of change in Northern Province. Provincial administration should always spend and disburse funds on the intended projects. There is a tendency of not funding certain departments adequately in preference for others like in my constituency. I am appealing to the administration of Northern Province to look into this matter so that when funds are available, they should distribute them equally, monitor projects properly and other activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Northern Province (Mr Filamba): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for this opportunity that you have given me.

Mr Chairman, just like other provinces, the mission statement of provincial administration for Northern Province is to coordinate and harmonise development and programmes in the province.

The duty of my office is to interpret and explain to the general public and to implement Government policies and programmes. Mr Chairman, the province has great potential for agricultural development as it is blessed with abundant waters from the lakes, rivers and good weather for all types of crops to be grown. The soils have been proved ideal for various crops while the weather is also favourable.

Tourism also has great potential for promotion due to the existence of many historical sites and the beauty of the great lakes in the area.

Timber and fishing industries also add to the potential of the province if properly exploited.

Mr Chairman, after the year 2000 census of population, Northern Province had a population of 1,470,088 of whom 49,5 per cent were male and 50.5 were female. The population has increased by 481,223 from 925,865 in 1999 which indicates an annual population growth rate of 45.3 per cent which is the highest compared to other provincial population growth rates.

Mr Chairman, this is why I would like this House to favourably consider the estimates of revenue and expenditure for Northern Province which I would term as rather behind and remote due to its size and distances between growth points.

Sir, in outline, Northern Province is geographically the largest in the country with twenty-one parliamentary constituencies and twelve districts. At present, the province has three main geographical sub-divisions, these are: the main high flat lands, the low valley areas from NaBwalya in Mpika to Muyombe in Isoka East, parts of Kaputa and Mpulungu districts, and the low swampy areas in the Lake Bangweulu surroundings of Mpika and Chilubi districts, including the Chambeshi Plains in parts of Mungwi, Kasama and Chinsali districts. 

Mr Chairman, the province, during the year 2001, saw a number of feeder roads, rural health centres, schools, water wells and boreholes, township water schemes, bridges and culverts either rehabilitated or constructed. Works on the Great North Road from Serenje to Nakonde were also completed. Construction works on Kalungwishi Bridge is in an advanced stage and very soon the bridge will be completed and opened for public use. But construction of Mbesuma Bridge will start immediately when funds are released. Works on Mbala/Nakonde Road, Isoka/Muyombe Road, Mbala/Nsumbu Road, Kasama/Mporokoso Road and Mporokoso/Bulaya Turn-Off stretch were awarded to various contractors. Some roads have been completed while other works will continue after the rainfall is over. 

Mr Chairman, on Mpika/Kasama Road, patching of potholes has been done and the road is earmarked for resurfacing this year, 2002. The contract has been awarded. Last year, the Government released a sum of K28,450,476 under HIPC funds. On water affairs, community development, cultural services and social welfare departments, these funds were used on various services according to the work programmes by individual departments. Some of the works included distilling of two tanks in Mbala and Nakonde in order to increase their capacity. 

Mr Chairman, in health, a number of maternity wings were constructed last year in Mpulungu, Nakonde, Kaputa and Luwingu hospitals. Also maternity wards were constructed at Lukaka in Chinsali, Nseluka in Mungwi, Nondo in Mbala and Chiyombo in Kasama. These were done with the assistance from one of our all weather co-operating partners in the province in executing various development programmes. They will continue to fund further similar works in Nsumbu and Mporokoso this year where contracts were awarded. 

Under water sector and with the help of Hurlo and Hage, Northern Province D-WASHE, many communities were serviced with boreholes and wells in order to provide clean and safe water so as to reduce water borne diseases such as cholera. This, in turn, will lengthen the lives of our people and make them productive. Some urban water schemes were also aided in the procurement of new pumps and rehabilitation of their in-take or inter works or both.

This programme is meant to continue this year with the good support of our co-operating partners. 

Mr Chairman, the tarring of the Kasama /Luwingu Road contract has been awarded to Sable Contractors. The contractor is already on site and bush clearing works on the road have already started. This year’s Budget has allocated K2 Billion for feeder roads to be rehabilitated. These feeder roads are an important requisite to the development of marketing and delivery of inputs. In this regard, the province is earmarked to rehabilitate feeder roads and bridges in all districts under Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) as HIPC funds.

Hon. Member: Finally.


Finally, Mr Chairman,…

Hon Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Filamba: These are the only few developmental projects, in the province, I wanted to highlight to the hon. Members. The list is not exhaustive. All I would ask for is the timely release of funds by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning so that our work in the province can start. We are in a hurry for development.

Mr Chairman, let me thank all hon. Members of Parliament who have contributed to the debate on this Vote and I assure them that …


Mr Filamba:  Those who raised some issues, of course. They need to be given an assurance of some kind.


Mr Filamba: It does not matter. There are two and those are the few who want to be answered. Yes! So, hon. Members, be assured that all the issues you have raised have been noted and we are going to look at them when we get back. 

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: The Minister for Western Province is in Mongu with the President, so, we go to Eastern Province.

VOTE – 95/01 – (Office of the President – Eastern Province – K8,952,032,471).

Mrs R. C. Banda (Milanzi):  Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am grateful to be given this opportunity to debate on the Vote for Eastern Province. 

Mr Sichilima: Quality!

Mrs Banda: The Eastern Province is a very big province, Sir. First, I would like to begin with the feeder roads. The feeder roads in the whole of Eastern Province beginning from Chama to Nyimba, especially in the rural parts of these districts are very bad. I want to remind Hon. Sampa that the Great East Road does not end at Lundazi, it ends in Chama District. Since independence, this road has only had tar from Lusaka to Lundazi. Can we have some consideration through the Provincial Deputy Minister. We need tarmac from Lundazi to Chama because that is where the Great East Road ends. Maybe, this man who comes from where they eat monkeys does not know that.

Mr Chairman, let me come to agriculture. On agriculture, Sir, as you know, the Eastern Province is the province which used to feed this nation, seconded by the Southern Province. This time when you go there, Sir, all easterners are beggars. 

The Chairman: Order!

(Debate adjourned)


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 2156 hours until 1430 on Tuesday, 2nd April, 2002.