DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY 

Wednesday, 3rd April, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

HIV/AIDS PANDEMIC IMPACT

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Thank you Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to issue a Ministerial Statement. 

As hon. Members are aware, an article appeared in the Times of Zambia on Tuesday, 26th of March, 2002, entitled “State Sticks to Local Drugs,” attributed to my Permanent Secretary of the ministry, Dr Garvin Silwamba. I want to make it clear that, that article contained misleading and misrepresentation of facts.

The Government recognises the seriousness of the HIV/AIDS Pandemic and the negative impact the disease is exerting on the lives of our people to an extent that social and economic progress has been seriously compromised.

Mr Speaker, it is for this reason that the Government has established the National AIDS Council for the multisectoral response to mitigate the impact of HIV/AIDS.

Furthermore, the Government, through the Ministry of Health, has constituted a committee consisting amongst others:

(a)    Clinicians;
(b)    Pharmacists;
(c)    Laboratory Technologists; and
(d)    Traditional Healers.

The committee has started to provide guidance on the process of purchasing anti-retroviral drugs and support services such as laboratory services. It will also look at how the whole programme shall be operationalised. This process should not take more than twelve working weeks.

However, the process demands for a rational and judicious approach to ensure affordability, sustainability and, above all, safety and sound welfare of the patients. Thus, there is need to build capacities in the diagnosis of patients, utilisation of the drugs and monitoring of patients on these drugs.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, the Government is cognisant of the potential value of the traditional remedies in the management of HIV/AIDS. To this end, the Government has put in place a Traditional Remedies Committee so as to assist in research on local remedies and to speed up authentication of such preparations.

Mr Speaker, I sincerely trust that this comment and clarification will help to correct the Government’s position on Anti-retroviral drugs and local remedies.

In addition, Mr Speaker, I would like to comment on the misleading statement by the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena who stated that there is no Government presence in health institutions in Luampa, Lukulu and Mangango. I would like to inform the nation, through this august House, that the Ministry of Health signed a Memorandum of Understanding with the Churches Association of Zambia. And through this Association, we, as a Government, pay all the salaries for workers in these mission hospitals; we also provide drugs and rural health kits as per allocation to each district. What these mission hospitals do is to supplement for their own resources and it is no wonder that when you compare Government institutions whose source of funding is only one, mission hospitals seem to fare much better.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now offered a chance to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given to the House this afternoon.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to put forward a question to the hon. Minister arising from what he has said about the situation in Lukulu, Mangango and Luampa. When is the Government going to establish their own hospitals in Kaoma and Lukulu district and stop relying on the support services being issued by the missionaries?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, in the provision of health institutions, a lot of factors are taken into account, one of which is population. And in our Memorandum of Understanding, we do not wish, as a Government with the co-operating partners, to duplicate efforts. We, in our Memorandum of Understanding, understand the health needs of the people. And so, whoever is in the locality with the population at hand, we consider we should marry our efforts to provide health care to our people

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the Government went to Kaoma and committed itself that since there is no district hospital, it is going to build a District Hospital in Kaoma District?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, that policy has not been made known to me. The hon. Member of Parliament can come and discuss but my previous statement still stands.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, what are we, therefore, to understand or assume about the Government of continuity?

Hon. Government Members: There is no question!

Mr Speaker: There was no question asked.

Mr Liato (Kaoma): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Health saying that Government has no intention of building the District Hospital?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health is reviewing the needs of its people. So, if, indeed, there is a critical need for a district hospital in Kaoma that, definitely, will be considered.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I am not very clear on the functions and the composition of the Traditional Remedies Committee, what are its functions?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, in order not to rely entirely on western type of medicine and it is very clear, as Ministry of Health, we will recognise the usefulness in terms of research in our traditional remedies. This committee was set up to complement the various efforts from the western research going on into HIV/AIDS drugs. The composition consists of traditional healers, scientists and the National AIDS Council members.

Its focal point is research, using the National Institute, the former National Council for Scientific Research. They carry out tests to certify that these remedies are not toxic and will not do harm to the patients. Once that is done, then we carry out what we call double blind trials to see how efficacious these remedies are.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

MOTIONS

THE DEATH OF HON. GOODSON BRUWER MULILO, MP, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUFWANYAMA CONSTITUENCY

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House places on record its deepest regret at the sudden death of the late Hon. Goodson Bruwer Mulilo, Member of Parliament for Lufwanyama Constituency and Deputy Minister of Works and Supply. I also wish to place on record the House’s appreciation of his distinguished and patriotic services to this country and to the people of Zambia and that the deepest sympathies and condolences of the National Assembly, be conveyed to his family.

Mr Speaker, allow me to say a few words to express my anguish and utmost shock at this sudden death of a dear colleague.

Sir, the demise of our beloved colleague is a terrible loss to the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD), the Government and the entire people of the Republic of Zambia. Sir, the late Hon. Goodson Bruwer Mulilo, MP, was born on 25th December, 1946 in Luanshya District in the Copperbelt Province.

Mr Speaker, the late Hon. Mulilo studied Parts and Service Management, Earth Moving and Mining Technology in South Africa from 1971 to 1978. From 1981 to 1983, he studied in the United States of America and obtained certificates in Equipment and Technology and Earth Moving and Construction.

Sir, the late hon. Minister began his political career in 1960 when he joined the African National Congress (ANC) as Youth Chairman. In 1964, he joined the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and held the position of Youth Chairman. With the advent of the multi-party politics in 1990, he moved on and joined the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) where he was elected Constituency Chairman. In May 2001, he was nominated to Parliament and appointed as Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President. 

Mr Speaker, the late Hon. Mulilo contested and won the Lufwanyama Constituency seat on the MMD ticket in the December, 27th 2001, tripartite elections. Upon his election to Parliament, he was appointed as Deputy Minister for Works and Supply, the position he held at the time of his death.

Sir, during his short career in Parliament, the late Hon. Mulilo contributed to the political development of this country. He was an active Member of Parliament and contributed effectively to debates in the House. His death is a loss, not only to his family, relatives and friends but also to the nation as a whole.’

The late Hon. Goodson Bruwer Mulilo leaves behind a wife and six children.

May his soul rest in peace.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi): Mr Speaker, it is indeed with great sorrow that we mourn the untimely death of my departed dear colleague, Hon. G. B. Mulilo, who I served with briefly as Deputy Minister in my ministry. Unfortunately, before we could settle down to work in order to improve our infrastructure in the country the cold hand of death decided to claim him.

During the brief period we worked together, we cultivated a very close and understanding working relationship. He was simple, outgoing and approachable by all members of staff in the ministry. He was so committed to work that even when he was not feeling well, he was still able to come to the office. One thing struck me about the character of the man we are mourning today. He was a God-fearing man. I recall that on the first day we were having a meeting with him, he led me into prayer before we could exchange pleasantries to signify our first union.

We, in the ministry, have indeed lost a very reliable colleague and we shall greatly miss him.

May his soul find everlasting peace.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I stand before you to associate myself with the passing of our friend, Hon. Goodson Bruwer Mulilo. Mr Mulilo came from a family that was well known as freedom fighters during the struggle of this country to liberate it from colonialism. His elder brother became the Governor in the UNIP Government. He grew up in politics. He understood and he was able to reach out to even us in the Opposition. He understood politics better than some of our friends across there.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: He was a politician. We are sad to miss him. Traditionally, as his cousin, I got worried when I heard he had been transferred from my brother’s office, His Honour the Vice-President where he was being well looked after and he was sent to the hon. Minister of Works and Supply (Crocodile).

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: I hope he has not killed him to establish himself in his portfolio.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Hon. Mulilo was a good man. He used to help us when we were looking for feeder roads because he came from a rural constituency. He had already established himself with us. We will really miss him. It is actually a sad passing to see such a devoted son of this country go. There are no drugs in hospitals to treat our leaders. In the good old days, you could have sent him to South Africa and served his life. But it is a pity, he left the Office of the Vice-President and he was sent to his office. We shall miss him.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): In contributing to the motion on the Floor, I wish to state that I knew Hon. Mulilo a few years ago. He was a very humble man, very accommodating, dedicated to his work and he was a man of integrity. We will miss his company in this House.

May his soul rest in eternal peace.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A motion such as this one is never wound up. So, I shall not call on His Honour the Vice-President to wind up this motion. Neither is a motion like this put to a vote. So, I shall not put it to the House for a vote. Instead, I shall say, the motion is carried nemine contradicente.

Motion carried nemine contradicente.

Members of Parliament stood in silence for one minute.

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS 17 AND 18(1)

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 17 and 18(1), if necessary, and Standing Orders 96 be suspended to enable the House complete all business on the Order Paper, all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House adjourns sine die.

Mr Speaker, the purpose of this motion is to bring to an end the current sitting of the House that commenced on Friday, 22nd February, 2002. This meeting has been unprecedented as it was the shortest meeting in which the Estimates of Expenditure including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure have had to be considered and approved by the House. 

Mr Speaker, the House may recall that previous meetings of this nature have been held some time for over twelve weeks. The success of this meeting would not have been achieved without the selfless dedication to mother Zambia by all hon. Members of this august House. This kind of commitment, Sir, I have no doubt that our country is on the right course to achieve good democracy and good governance. 

Mr Speaker, let me highlight some of the successes achieved by this House. First, it was your election as Speaker and the election of the hon. Mr Deputy Speaker. Hon. Members will agree with me that this House scored a vital point in the promotion of parliamentary democracy by electing you as our Speaker. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: This House has confidence and faith in your guidance and truly pleased that the duty endowed upon all hon. Members by the people of Zambia will be executed diligently. 

Sir, allow me also to congratulate the House on the ratification of the two Supreme Court Judges and the Solicitor-General. Sir, their ratification is testimony that this House is dedicated to ensuring that justice is dispensed expeditiously and professionally in the Judiciary. I have no doubt that the new Supreme Court Judges will not fail the people of Zambia. 

Mr Speaker, the House also passed five Bills. Sir, with the composition of the House this session, the passing of the Bills signifies the accuracy and good intentions of our national programmes. The support rendered to the Government by this House is tremendous and brings out good signs of the increasing co-operation between the Opposition and the ruling party. 

Sir, the Ninth National Assembly is a landmark Assembly of Parliament in many respects. The multi-party composition of this House clearly demonstrates the beauty of parliamentary democracy. We are not only working harmoniously but have also achieved a lot for our nation as I have already highlighted. We have made important laws and decisions in this House for the betterment of our country. We started and progressed very well and we have come to a successful conclusion of the House. 

Mr Speaker, as a House, we have built a solid foundation upon which as a nation, we are ready to put up strong and progressive structures that will enrich this country in many ways, be they political, economic or social. In this regard, Sir, allow me to commend all hon. Members of this august House, I say, well done. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not in a position at the moment to state when the House will meet again. However, I wish to assure the House that the Government will endeavour to adhere to the normal schedule of the meetings so that there is no lack of communication between the House and the Government. I also urge hon. Members to bring forward their grievances and proposals to ministries so that the good understanding we have so far achieved can result into success.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for your usual wisdom and commitment to the welfare of Zambia, to hon. Members and to the business of the House. Sir, the House and the nation are indebted to you for your invaluable contribution to the strengthening of our parliamentary democracy. We sincerely hope that you will continue to play this important role in our nation’s affairs. 

Mr Speaker, May I also thank the hon. Deputy Speaker for the able manner in which he has been handling the deliberations of the Committee of the Whole House during this meeting of the National Assembly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Sir, I am aware that the job of Chairman of Committees of the Whole House has not been easy because many times, the Chairman had to assume the role of mufundizi or teacher on parliamentary procedures to many of our new hon. Members. Surprising though, Mr Speaker, even some of the old hon. Members had to be coached at times.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I must also express our sincere tribute to the Clerk of the National Assembly and his staff for the good and efficient services they have willingly offered to all hon. Members of the House. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta (Luena): I thank His Honour the Vice-President for bringing this motion.

Mr Speaker, indeed it has been a very difficult session, especially for the Government Ministers and in particular for His Honour the Vice-President to keep up with the changes the people of this country have put in motion to have a minority Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: We are in majority to the Government and we have tolerated His Honour the Vice-President and his Government. In my opinion and my friends in these benches, we were made to understand come Friday, we are adjourning sine die. And by that time, we would have finished all outstanding work. To suspend Standing Order 96 and we have already suspended Standing Orders 17, 18(1) and to go on to 96 to make us sit here up to 2 o’clock tomorrow afternoon is disregard for our health. 

We need to retire after 2200 hours as we have been doing for the past two weeks and get a sleep. It is very indigestible to have your meals at 0100 hours as we have been doing, and he must feel for us. This Government should have called this House in January. But they decided to call the House and start the Budget session in March. We still have twenty-nine questions that various Members have put to the Ministers through you Mr Speaker. These questions are very vital. We cannot adjourn and go back to our constituency without answers to these questions. We still have to approve the Budget. We are willing to approve this Budget if this Government comes to meet us and do away with district administrators and former President Chiluba’s benefits, because he has not retired from politics

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Luena has been in this House for, I believe, twenty years and he knows what transpires on a motion of this nature and, also, what goes on on the debate of substantive Votes. The issues he is raising belong to the latter, not to this motion. May he stick to this motion so that we may resolve it in order to enable him not to have his meals at 0100 hours, as he has said. 

Laughter

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Mr Speaker. As I have said, we have 29 questions from various Members in these benches put to these Ministers. As you know, after the last Budget session of last year, the MMD Government did not call any Parliament for eight and half months. We cannot go back to that record. You broke the record in the Commonwealth. 

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: No Parliament has recessed beyond eight and half months. So, we would like His Honour the Vice-President to meet us half way as he promised a t the beginning of this week that we are adjourn sine die on Friday when we finish all outstanding matters, including the questions the Members have put to him and his Ministers. We need to take answers to our people.

Secondly, at committee level, committees must sit and draw up their programmes of work for this calendar year. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Sibetta: If we are to adjourn today, Sir, it does not make sense financially for Mr. Speaker and the Clerk to begin to summon us to come back, again, in a week’s time to draw up programmes for our calendar year. It is going to be very expensive. This side of your House, Sir, has been insisting on cutting down expenses in this Government. We will not allow unnecessary expenditure. So, we are saying; no, we are not going today. 

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: The power is this side, not that side.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: We are not going, we want to sit at committee level. Each committee should determine its work. We want to approve our Budget. We want you to give in. It is give and take, as the Chair has said. We want also you to answer these questions and any other incidental business. 

So, we are not going to be hurried to sit here up to 0600hrs or 0200hrs the following day. We are saying no, to you.

I thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! Let me guide the House to avoid mixing too many things that might confuse you. 

The motion that is before the House is from the Executive.

Mr Sibetta: Thank you very much, Sir. 

Mr Speaker: The responsibility of committees is for the Legislature and, on your behalf, I am responsible for summoning any committee when need arises. Do not mix the two. 

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, I rise to oppose this motion.

Interruptions.

Mr Sichinga: Before the hon. Members on the Government side have even understood my reasons for saying so, they are already defensive. This is part of the problem, Sir. This House has uncompleted business. Part of the uncompleted business is what Hon. Sibetta has already indicated.

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga: It is very important for this house to understand that we are no longer in a one-party State. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: You, our colleagues on the Government side, represent 27 per cent of the country, you should remember that. This side of the House represents 73 per cent.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: It is most important, Sir, that our colleagues understand the dynamics that have taken place in our country. It is about time, ladies and gentlemen, you started listening and listen good. There is uncompleted business in this House. Besides the questions that hon. Members of this House have, on behalf of the electorate, I have difficulty in appreciating how we are going to approve all the remaining Votes today. There is that of district administrators and we have to read through the Budget, produce amendments, come up with an Appropriation Bill to this House, make sure that there are no mistakes and then approve. We have said we are willing to put in our part and I say this on behalf of the opposition. We are prepared to put in the best of our effort and time. But we do not want to debate at 0200 and 0300 hrs in the morning when people are dozing and cannot focus on issues that are so important to the well being and welfare of our people. 

For that reason, Mr Speaker, we will not accept to adjourn without business being properly concluded. I am talking about the business of this House. I also want to go a little further. Toward the end of the debate, only two speakers from each province were allowed to debate issues. 

Hon Opposition Member: Since when?

Mr Sichinga: There are many issues of concern to your Members, Sir.  Let me just draw your attention to one of the very important issues that should be discussed in this House before we go back to our constituencies. This is the issue of the food and hunger situation in the country. 

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr. Sichinga: The Office of the Vice-President - Disaster Management, reports that as a contingency measure, for a period of about four months, there is need for about 98 thousand metric tones of food to be distributed to 42 districts in the country that need food urgently. The value of that food, Sir, by my calculations, represents US$24 million, if you assume that the price of a bag of maize grain is $240. Of this quantity, only less than US $7000 has been brought into the country.

Furthermore, the World Food Programme has only committed itself to 42,000 metric tones valued at US$11 million. We have a balance of 48000 metric tones that need to be found purely to cover a contingency period of four months.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Mr Sichinga: The balance of such requirements is 48000 metric tones. Even if all the food that has been pledged by the World Food Programme was to come in, that represents a value of US$12 million or better still in kwacha terms, K52 billion to bring in 48 metric tones of food grain to cause our people to survive.

I am here, Sir, as a bearer of a message from Nankanga behind Kafue Gorge where families have died and little children who were given wrong tubers after being cooked for four hours, died for eating these roots and tubers. Therefore, we should not take these matters lightly. I am, on behalf of the opposition, asking the Government to come and tell us here before we go back to our constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: … so that we can go and explain to them whether there is any hope that they will stop eating tubers. There is uncompleted business and because of the brevity of the debates we have had in this House in this unprecedented session, there are many questions that remain, we have not fully discharged our commitments to our electorate.

Furthermore, there is very poor consultation from the Government to the majority here, in the opposition.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: They assume that just because they have tabled something to this House, we will dully comply. I am here to surprise you that we will not do that.

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: We will scrutinise everything that you bring to this House, Your Honour, we want to do good job. We have said that this House is not a rubber stamp, we want to scrutinise what is going on in Government, especially that most of the hon. Ministers here are new

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Except Zimba!

Mr Sibetta: Mapushi!

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: We are saying that, before any motion of this kind is put on the Floor of the House, they should hold consultations with us. They should ask what is remaining on our side of the House in terms of parliamentary business so that we participate. They are asking for our approval of this Budget and we do not have a problem with that so long as the concerns that we have on a number of issues are cleared.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Mr Sichinga: We also want to point out to you that the threats of saying you will not release motor vehicles to us will not work. You can keep the vehicles if you want but we will represent the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Keep them!

Mr Sichinga: These hon. Members campaigned on foot when it was necessary. So, please, do not start talking about the Pajeros that you are using, we are prepared to go it full length if we have to.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: We will catch you!

Mr Sichinga: But just remember, this is coming to tell on you because we want hon. Members to go back to the people and consult with them. The days where you could impose issues are long gone.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: We want to hear from Government, Sir, before we adjourn, the situation on the district administrators and whether they are going to curtail the Presidential provisions for the immediate former President in terms of the three months that he was in politics. We want to hear those issues. If the Appropriation Bill has been properly done, figures have been adjusted accordingly, we are prepared to pass the Budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: There have been fundamental changes to our country’s political landscape, we are saying to you that there is already brought to this House the Auditor-General’s Report on Presidential Housing Initiative (PHI). Where is it? We want to see it.

Mr Hachipuka: Yes, we want to see it!

Mr Sichinga: And debate because there have been much misappropriation and misapplication in the activities of PHI that we warned you about in this House. We told you that PHI was illegal and you did not want to listen to us and I am talking about the MMD Government. We said to you, this PHI was illegal. Now, you have transferred it to the National Housing Authority (NHA), who did you ask? Since when did you have the powers to move institutions, all of a sudden, so that the people at NHA can answer for the misdemeanors of another person? Is that continuity with change?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sichinga: We want all the reports from the Auditor-General to be discussed in this House. This House wants to participate, consult and clear our minds because we do not want further misappropriation …

Mr Sibetta: Even immunity!

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: … of monies. We need that money for development.

Mr Speaker, paragraph 28 of the President’s Address to this august House talks about devolution of power. He talked about decentralisation of power. We are concerned that there is inconsistency on the part of Government because on one hand they want the district administrators while on the other, they are talking about decentralisation. Therefore, Sir, we want tabled before this House, debated and concluded the issue of how we are going to move on the decentralisation from the point of view of Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Lastly, Sir, we are appealing to Government not to misuse the procedures of this House. This is an august House, as you pray and start the proceedings in this House, we ask God to be in our presence here.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Are we conducting ourselves in a manner with the fear of God, we ask? 

Interruptions.

Mr Sichinga: Do not take it lightly, if you ask God’s spirit to in this House, be clean in what you bring forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for North-Western Province (Mr Mushala): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to contribute on the motion which has been brought by His Honour the Vice-President that is to suspend relevant standing orders so that upon completion of all matters, the House do adjourn sine die. 

Mr Speaker, allow me, first, to congratulate you in the manner you have handled the first session. We really appreciate and thank you for your leadership.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, this House is very important and I stand to support the motion. I am doing so because we are new Members of Parliament and being new Members, we need to understand the problems of our constituencies so that when we come, again, here and debate on the other budgets, we will be more equipped and knowledgeable than we are now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Which budget?

Mr Mushala: I am talking about next year’s Budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, if I can listen to my colleagues …

Mr Speaker: Order! This House is an honourable House and those Members of this House who take care and bother to study their orders will know why it is necessary for Members of this House to listen to one another. I am surprised that those who are interjecting while seated have already spoken in this House.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Speaker: May the House listen to other Members. Thereafter, when the vote is taken, each Member would know how or why to vote in the manner that he/she will be voting. May we listen and will the hon. Deputy Minister for North-Western Province, please, continue.

Mr Mushala: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for that good guidance. I was just about to reply to some colleagues of mine who were trying to interject while I was debating. What I have observed and learnt in this House, Mr Speaker, is that not all of us may be new Members of Parliament. I think it is a story of being at school. We have some repeaters who have been failing to move to the next grade.

Laughter.

Mr Mushala: What all repeaters, do is that during the first term they make noise so that the teacher is not understood.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister is off the topic. May you stick to the topic. The motion is very clear. His Honour the Vice-President …

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! If I may say it in a lay person’s language, His Honour the Vice-President is simply asking the House to assist him waive certain items of our Standing Orders so that we may complete business today and after which the House adjourns until further notice. That is the motion on the Floor in a lay person’s language. May we stick to that motion.

Mr Mushala: I thank you, Mr Speaker. Sir, in supporting this motion, I would like to put it clearly that when we ask questions, as my colleagues have said, it takes a number of days. If I am not mistaken, it takes about twenty-one days for the Government to respond. We should also consider when these questions were submitted to the Government. So, it is not a must that even if we stay on, these questions will be answered because there is a requirement that the Government needs twenty-one days. So, unless you want us to stay for twenty-one days discussing nothing. We have finished the Budget. All that remains is to go through the figures for provinces and that is the end of the debate. Mr Speaker, why then should we still be in Lusaka? We need to go back to our constituencies. We have discussed a lot of things. We got the message from the Republican President and we got the Budget proposals tabled by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. 

In this Budget, a lot has been mentioned, Mr Speaker. The Budget has addressed the major areas that concern our economy. We need to go back to our constituencies to look at the health and educational problems, the road network and the poverty levels. How are we going to tackle them if we are in Lusaka? Staying here, Mr Speaker, will not solve these problems. I do not agree with my colleagues who want to stay on. I want to go to Mufumbwe to see the problems there. That is why, Mr Speaker, I am supporting the motion raised by His Honour the Vice-President.

As regards the programme of committees, Mr Speaker, your Office puts up a draft programme. Even when you come to discuss, you do not even debate on that programme. It is already made on your behalf, hon. Members of Parliament. You must not be misled that you sit and debate your programme. The Office of Mr Speaker is going to guide you. If you have to adjust, it is minor, maybe, a trip to Livingstone and you may say, you are not interested in going to Livingstone. You will not reject all of the things put there. So, Mr Speaker, to say that we should continue to sit in this House because committees have to meet and draw up their programme, is denying Zambians their right to representation. And Mr Speaker, not all of us are in committees anyway,.

Besides, Mr Speaker, even when this House adjourns, hon. Members can still raise questions on issues that they find on the ground in their constituencies and the Government should respond there and then. If we fail to respond, then you must accuse us of failing to lead the Zambian people. It is not only in this House that we can respond and not necessarily only to hon. Members of Parliament. Even ordinary Zambians out there can demand our response. If the debate is that we answer queries only when this House is sitting, and we have 150 Members of Parliament, then that is wrong, Mr Speaker. Zambia has 10 million people who need answers and as Government, we ought to respond as and when Zambians want answers. 

So, hon. Members, there is nothing for to argue about otherwise even the people that sent us here will laugh at us. We are not being serious. We have finished the business. Let us support His Honour the Vice-President, conclude the figures and adjourn.

The issue of district administrators, Mr Speaker, has been brought about. I know we are going to debate it. We should bear in mind, hon. Members, that it is a prerogative of the President …

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! I have already guided the House on that issue. That comes later. It has been there before. If you so wish, conclude your debate. I see a hand of another hon. Member who wants to contribute as well.

Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, I thank you so much. You have always guided us on the issue of district administrators and I think we should not go back to that. All I ask my colleagues, is, let us be honourable and support His Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Speaker, I thank you so much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the motion on the Floor. Mr Speaker, the motion before us is straightforward. The Government, through the Leader of the House, has come up with business that has basically been a Budget and other pieces of legislation that we have tackled. Accordingly, this business is now about to complete. It is, therefore, only logical and normal and procedural in this House that he moves this motion so that the House could complete all business on the Order Paper and adjourn sine die.

It is true that we have yet to go through individual items on some of the votes. Yes, that is true, but all who have been in this House know that it is quite possible and very easy for us to go through individual items. If there are amendments, as our colleagues are saying, I believe that these have been circulated and they are going to be tackled. This is the normal procedure of this House. So, there is no shortcut that is being taken. Everything that is on the Order Paper and in the Budget will be dealt with. It is, therefore, erroneous to come and state that the Government is not coming in a straightforward manner to present items in this House because this is the normal way things are done.

One of my colleagues, hon. Sibetta, said that we want to reduce expenditure by staying in Lusaka. What he ignores to point out is that by staying in Lusaka, we will, in fact, be spending more through continuous sitting of this House and expenses on hon. Members of Parliament. 

So I do not agree that you will be saving by continuing to seat. In any case, when one of my colleagues says that this Government is only representing 27 per cent. That is incorrect.

When you look at the structure of the legislature in here, 46 per cent of elected Members of Parliament are on Governments’ side. It is only 54 per cent on the other side. If you add nominated Members, the percentage even changes. But I am not even considering that. The point I am making, Mr Speaker, is that it is erroneous to come and say that we only have 27 per cent. The figures speak for themselves. Anybody who can do simple arithmetic and, I believe, an accountant at that, should be able to compute simple percentages.

Sir, it is important that we all go back and begin to work. My colleagues have talked about famine. We have talked about roads that need repair and we need the budget approved so that Government can move. As it is now, most of the time ministers are in the House and they are not able to function effectively. Government can only work if all the people, including ministers and all hon. Members of Parliament, are in their locations to enhance development. I do not believe sitting indefinitely will enable us develop this county any further.

So, I would like to urge our colleagues that people of Zambia us need to be in our constituencies. The Government must work and minister must be in their offices and move around the country to get first hand information and impressions of what is on the ground. Sir, by being in the House all the time, we will not be as effective as we ought to be.

Mr Speaker, I thank and I support the motion.

Mr Speaker: I shall take one contributor from my left (Opposition) and then I will take another from the Governing side on my right.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi-Central): I thank you very much for the opportunity to be the last speaker on the right. It is unfortunate I did not consult the Whip for UNIP, I would have taken what he wanted to say.

Can I use the other microphone because I can see the Speaker is having problems seeing me.

Mr Speaker, I wish to begin by saying that I have reservations in supporting the motion. My reasons being that most of us come from rural areas and we expected our colleagues on your right, specifically the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to tell us the plans he has for this agricultural season. For example, has he already facilitated the bringing in of fertiliser and when, so that as we go, we will be able to tell our constituencies about that. It is important.  With the hunger situation, knowing when fetiliser is coming can enable us do better next year.

Mr Speaker, the other reason that I have for refusing to support the Motion is that, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, on more than two occasions stood and informed the nation that before we adjourn, he would tell us about the US$90m. That is what he said on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, again, the hon. Minister stood and told the nation that on Kwacha Mania he had the answers and that he would tell the nation before rising. He further stood and asked us not to talk about the Cobalt Gate because he would bring a ministerial statement.

Mr Speaker, I am sure we shall be doing a disservice to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who would have loved to give these ministerial statements if we adjourn today. We shall be curtailing his wish of informing the nation because if he does not do that, Zambians will start questioning the integrity of Hon. Kasonde.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Unless, Mr Speaker, you want people to start doubting his integrity, then we support the motion. So that now we shall be saying the hon. Minister you people thought had integrity, actually has none, we were cheated. I am sure we need to serve his face Mr Speaker.

Let me say a few things that I heard my colleagues talk about. Our hon. Minister for North-Western Province talked about the programme of work. Let your left not be misunderstood. You gave us guidance and I wish to restate that the point of Hon. Sibetta was right. For the past five years, I was on your left together with Hon. Sondashi …

Mr Sibetta: And Mushala.

Mr Tetamashimba: … even Hon. Mushala himself.

After committees elect their chairpersons they make their programmes. We are saying that we should not go now just to come back shortly to make programmes for Mr Speaker’s consideration. Just to do that Sir, will take more than K500 million. Despite that, what the hon. Minister for North-Western Province (Mr Mushala) about your powers, is right.

Mr Speaker, I stand here, sorry, I not pointing a finger at you. I have a lot of respect for you Sir. However, as we adjourn today, some of your Members on the left do not even know on which committees they belong. I think, more than five of them do not know the committees on which they belong. 

Sir, surely is it not better for these people, as we adjourn, to know at least the committees on which they belong. It has never happened before. It is theses simple things, Mr Speaker, that make us feel that the motion is rushed. We agreed with His Honour the Vice-President when he said that we would adjourn on Friday …

Mr Sibetta: Yes!

Mr Tetamashimba: … we knew that hon. Members who are not on committees would be put on committees and we would t use the period to put up our programmes of work so that Mr Speaker, could then tell us whether he accepts them or not.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members were showering this Government with CDF praises. We would have expected the hon. Minister, like it has happened previously, to tell us that as we go he would send CDF next month after the budget has been approved. We have not heard that. Of course, there was some CDF sent last year and I do not want to comment on that because I may step on other peoples ‘toys’- toes.

Laughter.

Mr Tetamashimba: I heard one of our ministers saying that they want to rush to their constituencies. 

Interruptions.

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes, to go and visit their constituencies. 

Mr Speaker, unfortunately, Hon. Mushala who is our minister, will not go to Mufumbwe using his personal vehicle. He will use a Government vehicle.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, most of the people on your left, some of them have no vehicles. Our colleagues on your right claim that they have been going to their constituencies. They only do so because they use Government facilities. Without Government facilities, they would not go to the constituencies like most of the people on your left do. So, really we should not be seen as if we are refusing to go to the constituencies. I stay in my constituency. All of us here on your left stay in our constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is the ministers who actually fail to go to their constituencies.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: That is why we would like to have a system in which, each one of us must be able to tell you, Mr Speaker, that he had toured his constituency for you to know that your Members of Parliament are visiting their constituencies.

Mr Sibetta: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: You would think others are in their constituency when in fact their house is here in Lusaka. You would think they stay out there in the province when they stay here. So, really let us not say that we want to visit the constituencies as soon as possible and yet you know the majority of the people do not have the facility to go and tour the constituencies.

Mr Speaker, we were also being told that this House was going to have the opportunity to have something laid on the Table about the song of K2 billion which I think we should not be singing about. You find that a Member of Parliament, who is just trying to speak, talks about the K2 billion. What is good, Mr Speaker, is to put things straight so that the hon. Member who seems to have been suffering from all this anguish …

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Solwezi Central may not have been in this House for nearly twenty years, I know that. But that is a norm. The matter is before the courts of law. It is subjudice. Besides, you, hon. Members, are not encouraged to debate one another. You cannot do that. You have been sent over here by the people and so, debate the issues and do not debate yourselves. 

I have not curtailed his debate, I notice he is about to wind up, may the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central, please, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Apologise!

Mr Tetamashimba: I cannot apologise because all I was saying is that I do not want people to be mentioning it in the House. That is what I was trying to say. But if you think we should go ahead, we shall be mentioning it.

Mr Speaker, it is in view of the itemised headings, firstly about agriculture, fertiliser when is it coming? Secondly, of course, the hunger was mentioned by the Vice-President of our party. Thirdly, I have mentioned Members of Parliament who are not on committees. I have spoken of CDF and I have spoken of the Minister of Finance who promised this House a statement on the US$90 million and so on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Offices for MPs!

Mr Tetamashimba: Even the offices where we are going. We should have been told by the Minister of Local Government and Housing conclusively but he just gave a partial report so to say. He should have said, “Look this is a final report, when you go to Solwezi, there is an office already prepared for you.” We would have also loved to hear, Mr Speaker, how these offices are going to be manned because with the creation of offices by His Excellency the President, it now means that we are going to have literature in our offices for our own school children to come and read. The question is: if there will be no provision of a person to man that office when the Members of Parliament are here like we are, how are the children in school going to access the information? So, we would like to know really whether they are going to provide somebody to do the day - to - day work in those offices.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I need only one.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Miss Namugala): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion on the Floor.I would like to say that, obviously, the Members on your left have a lot of questions that they would like to ask the Government and rightly so. But I wonder if we can cover all of them in this session. In as much as the business of this House is important, I think our real work as Members of Parliament is in our constituencies. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Namugala: We must go back and face our people. We must go back and find out what problems our people are going through.

Hon. Opposition Members Interjected

Miss Namugala: Members of Parliament, Mr Speaker, have access to the ministries and the ministers here, who can ably address all their problems. Mr Speaker, our people are waiting and waiting to ask us what development we are going to take to the constituencies. Our people are waiting for us to address and deliver the promises that we made when we were campaigning. In as much, Mr Speaker, as we enjoy the sitting allowances here,…

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Miss Namugala: … I think the real work …

Interruptions

Laughter.

Miss Namugala: … is in the constituencies and I urge the hon. Members to go back and face their people and deliver the development they promised.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Show leadership!

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I rise to thank those Members of Parliament who have contributed to this very important motion, a motion that enables hon. Members of this august House to return to their constituencies and face the people that voted them into this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: And in some cases, to go and thank the people for having voted them into this House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is a common complaint by our voters that when people are elected to come to Parliament, Lusaka, some never even go back

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: I am aware that many of the hon. Members of this august House have not had the opportunity to return. I am also aware that Members from the Government in the course of their duties, have gone to some constituencies and met those that sent us here.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: I am very delighted to state that some of my colleagues were in the Western Province last week and toured certain constituencies and met the people that sent us here. And those people asked us certain questions that we answered on your behalf. We want you now to go yourself, Hon. Sibetta, and face the voters.

They are waiting for you in Luena Constituency. {mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker, there are Parliamentary questions but as Hon. Sibetta is aware, it takes time for answers to be collected in order for us to be able to give this august House the true picture of what is happening in relation to the questions asked.

Hon. Sichinga wishes to see a report from the Government on hunger and relief. Mr Speaker, yes, there is hunger in the nation as a result of the drought that we faced. In the last season, we had too much water and crops were submerged. Now, too much rainfall and too much drought are the causes of the problems that we face today. Even MMD, with all its might, I am sure could not control nature. So, blame nature on the problems that we face.

Mr Speaker, having said so, we are a Government and, indeed, we are doing something about it. We have asked co-operating countries to support us through the World Food Programme. Only last week, the Japanese Government made available, to the Zambian Government, relief worth about US$3 million through the World Food Programme.

Mr Speaker, the business of the House never ends. We are always talking about development and issues. Therefore, there can never be a time when you will say that we have done everything and we should be going. So, there is a continuous business in this House. From 1964, we have been talking about the same things. Some things we do, others we postpone and other things we do not do.

Sir, we do have certain information and we have decided that we will be advertising in the newspapers the relief that the Government is offering to its people, who have received what and who are yet to receive what. But I do know that we have gone to almost all districts and supported them in one way or the other. 

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President: Relief food can never be enough at all. This is because relief food by its nature, it is meant for those that are very old, infirm or unable to feed themselves, when it is taken to a district, even those who are workers and who have got access to maize that is being sold in shops, tend to go for relief. So, that is the problem we face but beginning next week, we shall be putting on radio and in newspapers, statistics showing where everything has gone because we have that information.

Hon. Sichinga talked about motor vehicle loans. I think this is a matter that this House can ably handle. Since I am a rural Member of Parliament myself, I do know that vehicle transport is needed by most of our hon. Members to cover their constituencies adequately. This matter is being handled at a different level. Of course, I am informed that we do not have sufficient funds to cover all hon. Members of Parliament who may wish to access this facility. However, something is being done about it in order to enable you, hon. Members, visit your Constituencies.

Hon. Sichinga also talked about DAs and Presidential benefits. I think. on today’s Order Paper, we will attempt to go back to the deferred subjects and we should make progress. Progress is in the interest our voters, country and everybody else. At times, it is not right just to argue for the sake of arguing. I think we need to get together and find answers more so that the issues have almost been resolved. So, it is my wish that we do not spend too much time on that but it is on the Order Paper and it will be debated.

He also talked about the Auditor-General’s Report on PHI. I received the Auditor-General’s Report on PHI but we were here. It is my intention to get 250 copies printed as is the requirement and those copies will be distributed to hon. Members of the House for them to read, study, understand and then when we reconvene, perhaps, raise the necessary questions that they may wish the Government to clear.

Hon. Mushala, congratulated the Speaker on his re-election and his guidance. I wish also to emphasise the point that this House is lucky to have a man of Mr Speaker’s experience and we all benefit from your wisdom, Mr Speaker. We wish you well all the time so that you continue guiding this House for many years to come.

Hon. Machungwa supported the motion. We have to go to our constituencies and explain what we have been doing and what we intend to do for them That is what we came here for. Those, like myself, who are from the rural areas, who now have fallen in love with Lusaka, for a little while, let us go to our constituencies first if we wish to continue staying in Lusaka.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: I can see that. My friend, this is Lusaka.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: I am standing here and looking at all of you.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: This is Lusaka and it is addictive. People get addicted to this town but go home first and explain.

Hon. Tetamashimba talked of the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives being able to talk about fertiliser or, at least, say something about fertiliser. I was here and I think I listened to the hon. Minister when he addressed this House because he covered the subject of fertiliser adequately. However, in the Yellow Book, there is a provision that when the Budget is approved, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has to find the money to order the inputs in order for Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia to start producing the fertiliser that we so badly need. Without this Budget being approved or the delays in approving the Budget will mean delays in getting that fertiliser for the Government has no other way of importing that fertiliser other than through the Budget.

So, it is important, hon. Members of this august House, to know that these things are totally related. One angle of the Budget not meeting your favour means other issues also suffering.

He also talked about commitments the hon. Minister may have made on a few issues but all I know is that some of the issues Hon. Tetamashimba raised are in courts. These things are being discussed in court. So, we cannot have the court discussing the same matter as ourselves. The issue is to leave the courts to come up with resolutions wherever we do not agree. So, no one is covering anyone at all. We believe that everything else is transparent as far as we are concerned including the issues that you have raised.

He further doubted about Members of Parliament going to their constituencies. He believes that a few of them will just hang around Lusaka and this is the common trend. But, like I keep on reminding you that five years in politics, especially on the Opposition side, will soon catch up with you. The people will ask, you promised us so many things and you said you would do this, now you have not done them. When you want their vote, they will tell you to go back to Lusaka where you were spending your days. I hope that hon. Members will go to their respective constituencies.

The hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affair (Miss Namugala) said it is important that we go to consult. I think it is important that we go to consult. As to whether we receive any allowances for being here, I am not sure whether these are sufficient. I find it easier to go to friends in Lusaka to ask for some relief than in the village because those in the village are also looking forward to your coming so that they share the allowances with you. If you have transport, you can be giving them lifts at the back of your vehicle and people like that. On the other hand, if you do not have something to share with the voters, you may find that you are most unwelcome and that keeps people be here in Lusaka.

So, I thank hon. Members for supporting this motion and hopefully we will see you soon. Go and face the voters. Go and say, thank you, to the voters and then you can come back. If you have any particular problem on why you cannot go to your constituency, my office both here at Parliament and my other Government office at the ministry are open for you to come and discuss your special or peculiar needs. I shall attend to them to facilitate your going home.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

VOTE 90/01 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – Headquarters – K8,191,463,649)

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

VOTE 90/01 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – Headquarters – K8,191,463,649)

Vote 90/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 90/09 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – Buildings Department – K755,885,395)

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): I am amused to your going for functional totals only.

The Chairman: Thank you.

Vote 90/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 90/52 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – District Administration Office – K771,017,700).

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): I want to find out why there is no amount on district administration whilst His Honour the Vice-President told this House that K608 million …

The Chairman: Can you ask your question?

Mr L. J. Ngoma: …was allocated to this administration office under Lusaka Province. So why is it zero? That is what I am trying to find out.

The Chairman: Why is it zero? It is as simple as all that. Can we have the explanation, please.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, this is covered under provincial administration.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 90/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 91/01 – (Office of the President – Copperbelt Province – Headquarters – K9,241,853,400).

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, I circulated a notice of amendment on Wednesday, 27th March, 2002. I would like that to be taken into consideration in discussing this matter.

The Chairman: We have finished that Vote.

Mr Sichinga: No, I am dealing with Copperbelt Province – Headquarters.

The Chairman: Which province are you talking about, and which line?

Mr Sichinga: It is Copperbelt Province, and as circulated in the amendment.

The Chairman: On which Head did you circulate the amendment?

Mr Sichinga: Well, it is Head 91/01 – sub-head 1 – Personal Emoluments, sub-items 01, 02, 03 and the sub-head total, under the ‘2002 Estimate’.

The Chairman: Head what? {mospagebreak}

Mr Sichinga: It is 91/01. This is where the provincial administrators are. I have circulated my amendment. 

Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on Sub-Head 1 – Personal Emoluments, sub-items 01, 02, 03 and the Sub-Head Total, under the ‘2002 Estimate’ column as follows:

“01/01 Salaries    -     from 774,029,608         to 155,438,750
             01/02 Wages        -     from 214,765,699           to 64,261,250
         01/03 Other Emoluments     -    from176,334,080                  to177,501,799

Sub-Head Total    -    from 1,165,129,387            to 397,201,799”

Sub-Head 2 – Recurrent Departmental Charges, sub-items 01, 02, 03, 04 and the Sub-Head Total, under the ‘2002 Estimate’ as follows:
“02/01 Allowances     -    from 133,115,312         to 147,953,750
02/02 Purchase of Goods  -    from 484,161,194         to 483,125,000
02/03 Purchase of Services  -    no change
02/04 Training Expenses   -    from 37,411,948         to 86,250,000

Sub-Head Total         -        from 1,239,289,374         to 1,301,929,670”

The Function Total, under the ‘2002 Estimate’ column, by the deletion of ‘2,554,649,524’ and the substitution therefor of ‘834,975,975,760.’

The Grand Total on page 572, under the ‘2002 Estimate’ column is consequently reduced by ‘1,619,673,764’.

The Chairman: Okay, your amendment is on Head 91/01 – Office of the President – Copperbelt Province.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, I submit that in this debate, we have discussed the issue of the District Administrators, salaries and remuneration including expenditures. I submit that this office although the President can establish it, the responsibility of allocating resources to it remains with this House. 

I am also submitting, Sir, that connected with this are the Recurrent Departmental Charges which are appear in sub-head 2, sub-items 01, 02, 03, and 04. I have circulated the amendments to both sub-head 1 on Personal Emoluments as well as on Recurrent Departmental Charges and that the functional total for the year 2002 Estimates should be replaced by the figure of K834,975,760 in replace of the figure of K2,555,054,649,524. 

In doing this, I have taken in cognisance of the fact that inflation as reported by Government last year was at 18 per cent. Therefore, taking the figures for last year and even providing for a figure of 25 per cent increment in costs that should not be the figures that I have given here. And this is why deliberately figures on the Office of the District Administrators are showing zero. Instead they have been put in the figure in headquarters administration. We are submitting that this expenditure cannot proceed because District Administrators have played a partisan role and until such time as the issue of their remuneration and their position is resolved, we should not make a provision at all.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I seek the indulgence of the House. It is not feasible to amend these figures for the reason that although Hon. Sichinga stood up there to talk about his hatred for District Administrators …

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

The Vice-President: No, Mr Chairman, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Your language.

The Chairman: Hon. Sichinga, this is not the first time you have pushed the amendments. You have done so in the last Parliament many times. That is why I gave you a chance to advance your reason for proposing those amendments. Now, let him finish. If you do not agree, I will give you the Floor again.

Hon. Opposition Members: He should mind his Language.

The Chairman: Order! 

You see when you talk from every corner; I am just as you are, you disturb my hearing faculty. I cannot even pick what he said. Now, it is very difficult, you put me in a very difficult situation whether to rule him out of order or not, because I do not know what he said. Please have patience, listen very carefully.  If you are not happy about something, let me know what you are not happy about it, then, I will make a decision thereafter. Will you, please, continue. 

Mr Kavindele: Thank you, Mr Chairman. The hon. Member stated that district administrators play a partisan role and as such should not be included in the estimates. He used the word ‘ partisan’. As far as Provincial Administration Vote is concerned, it does not only bear the cost of district administrators because below district administrators, there are other officers. Therefore, he does not have the exact figure for DAs’ emoluments or wages. Therefore, disturbing this figure may not only affect DAs’ but other employees at district level.

Mr. Chairman, the issue here is that the President has stated what is going to happen to the office of DAs’. In fact, Cabinet Office has already started advertising in newspapers as to what will be the fate of DAs’ When the President talked about this office, he said and, I quote: 

‘Everyone shall be given the opportunity to advise on the future role of this office.’

It is expected that hon. Members of Parliament, on either side, will, at their own time, but within six months sit down and give us some advice if they have any on what they see as a role of district administrators. Now, since DAs’ will be employed by the Public Service Commission, it is assumed that they will go through the rigorous selection process of people who want to enter the Civil Service. 

For instance, any member, or any one who is a DA now and over perhaps the age of 70, and I know of two, may find it very difficult to pass through the Public Service Commission screening because in the Civil Service people are retired at the age 55. So, anyone at the age of 59 or 60 does not qualify. 

Mr Speaker, we ask that our colleagues give us the opportunity to phase out this office in its present form in an orderly manner because even if they were to be fired, Government would still need money from some where to pay them for their contract. So, that is why we are saying that let us pay them off because within six months, whether you do it now or later, money has to come from this very House to pay them off and get new people to be employed. 

Sir, as far as Government is concerned, that office is a vital office because it enables us link Central Government to district administration. We can do away with the name of DAs, if that is what people who are going to advise Government would want. We can come up with other titles such as district commissioner, district executive secretary and district governor. The only difference is that those who were district governors then, may not qualify now. This could be your next job. So, be careful with the way you contribute towards the noble office.

 Mr Chairman, this office gives us good direct access to the needs of our voters. If you are partisan, they no longer be partisan because the Public Service Commission is the one that is going to screen them and tell them that because they have become civil servants, in the Civil Service, no politics.  If they show partisan politics, they are gone. 

Sir, because the level of district administrator shall be quated to that of the Deputy Permanent Secretary, it is hoped that people who will get those jobs now, will be men and women of very high caliber. This is because in the Civil Service, Sir, to be Deputy Permanent Secretary is quite a high position. So, if I employ my uncle to be Deputy Permanent Secretary, you will question me on the criteria for a man of 70 years to get the job. So, we will be open to criticism and this is why we are saying that before you criticise us, hon Members of Parliament, please, meet and give us some advice. You are in contact with some of the DAs’ and you know they have gone wrong. 

Having said so, Mr. Chairman, I am aware that even I have had problems with some of them. I go round the country, as Vice-President, and we hear some of them saying that they are presidents in those districts. So, when I go there, they say that; that one is only Vice-President. 

Laughter.
: 
Mr. Kavindele:  So, that is how cantankerous some of them are.

Laughter. 

Mr. Kavindele: So, I know what you are talking about. I am not like my colleagues who go only to their constituencies, for me I go to all constituencies. That is the fact of life that I have found out. They are ‘district presidents’. Some even put flags on their residences.

So, this issue does not only affect you alone, it affects even us here. We are also very keen to see that the quality is looked at. When politicians employ, whether it is us or you there, most likely you also employ, political cadres. We may have made that mistake. But now, we are saying let us forget the past and look into the future and use different criteria in employing these people. 

Mr Chairman, Sir, it is my humble prayer that ho. Members of this House will support this Vote without amendment so that we can get rid of that office once and for all.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Chairman, in the first place I wish to advise the hon. Vice-President that when I raise questions in this House, I have no hatred for anybody or intentions. I have no intentions of debating myself. For those who know my debate in this House, I am a very objective person. I want to refer this House to page No. 390 of the Yellow Book. On that page are given figures for the Copperbelt Province, Vote 91/52 – Office of the President – Copperbelt Province, District Administration Office. Last year, the figures for personal emoluments were K530,745,000. The amount for recurrent departmental charges were K795,574,892 while capital expenditure was K41,000,000. Total value for that function was K1,367,650,262.

His Honour the Vice-President talked about mathematics. I am a certified accountant and I have said that if you take those figures that were provided last year, and I am not guessing unless the Government is telling us that they came to this House with inaccurate and incorrect figures last year to mislead this House which they have also indicated in this budget, in that case, I am at a loss as to what the Government expects of us. I have used those figures from last year and I have proposed a new figure that provides for …

The Chairman: A figure for which vote?

Mr Sichinga: For the Vote on Provincial Administration which includes now, the District Administrators’ costs on Vote 91/01, page No. 364.

Personal emolument have risen from last year’s K317,761,439 to K1,165,129,397. If you take into account K530,745,000 for last year under District Administration and you deduct that and you provided for the 25 per cent increase for the current year to take account of the inflation and to allow for improved services, these amendments that I have provided to the House which have been circulated, Sir, provide for a sustenance of the services that were provided for last year plus inflation and adjustment to the extent of the 25 per cent of last year.

I believe that these changes provide adequate funds to the Provincial Administration headquarters as envisaged in the 2002 budget but it removes all funding for the District Administrator. Similarly, I have done the same thing for recurrent departmental charges and I have made a similar adjustment only taking out that component which relates to the district administrators. The statement by His Honour is not telling this House that they have removed that. He is saying we will decide but in the meantime, we must maintain the people that are in those offices and this is where we on this side of the House (opposition) differ with him, Sir.

Also, I take strong exception for referring to my submissions as being full of hatred. I think you should retract that particular statement because I did not mince my words about what I was doing. It did not reflect any hatred on my part. I am dealing with a situation where we do not agree with that particular provision. Therefore, Sir, I am saying the adjustments that we have made have provided for K584 million in the Provincial Administration for salaries and these figures can be verified, they are here in the Yellow Book. So, I submit, Sir, that His Honour should be talking to us about a policy position of adjusting this until such time as the nation decides as to whether we need the office of district administrator or not.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Furthermore, in the President’s address to this House, paragraph 28 and if His Honour the Vice-President would care to refer to that, the President clearly and categorically states that there is going to be devolution of power, transfer of power and decentralisation. We are saying from this side of the House that in the interests of frugal management of resources and austerity, why do you want to duplicate responsibilities at district level? So, until such time as that issue is resolved, we want this amount to be removed and we are asking the Government to make that adjustment. 

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Chairman, I think I have heard what that colleague has said.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aha! 

Mr Sibetta: He is honourable!

The Vice-President: Is a colleague not honourable?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I have heard what he has said. Now, the question is whether we maintain this office or abolish it, and we have no powers to do that but the President. These people still need to be paid and all I am saying is that we have given notice that this office will not be there in the form that you have always known it but they have to be paid. Taking out or amending the vote as he is suggesting means that there will be no money to pay or even to lay them off. So, what type of management is that? Because even here they are covered by certain labour laws which we have that you cannot just lay off people anyhow. So, I have said we agree and we thank him and this is why we may have moved the figures from districts to provincial headquarters where even the Permanent Secretary is and part of that will be to pay off these people.

Today, we have a problem and I heard one of the hon. Members here who was talking of people that have left employment and not been paid. You cannot cry for just one section of the Zambian population, they are all Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President: Now, according to you the district administrators are not Zambians?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President: So, on that logic, Sir, I need to be assisted but I think I have a point that we should approve these so that we get rid of this problem once and for all. Let those who may not qualify to enter the civil service go and be paid and new recruits brought in but which ever way you look at it, money shall still be needed to pay off these people so that the problem ends.

Mr Chairman, I thank you.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Chairman, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to participate in the motion that is on the Floor but before I go on to my contribution …

The Chairman: Order! We are not opening up another debate. We are discussing this amendment as proposed by Hon. Sichinga. So, when I give you the Floor, just say one thing. If you support the amendment or not and the reasons, that is all.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Chairman, I thank you for your guidance. I totally support Hon. Sichinga’s views pertaining to extracting the component pertaining to the wages or personal emoluments for district administrators. Why do I say that? I say that if we are all committed …

Dr Sondashi: On a point of order, Sir!

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Chairman, I seek your serious guidance and ruling over this matter. Sir, according to the Constitution, the creation of any position in the Civil Service is presidential prerogative and the President has created the office of district administrators. Creation of an office, Sir, goes with emoluments. You cannot create an office without that.

Hon. Opposition Members: What is your point of order?

Dr Sondashi: Listen, please. I have been in this House since 1978. I am the oldest Member of Parliament here, in case you do not know. No one else is older than me.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: My dear colleague, (Mr Shakafuswa), if you want to object something, do not be annoyed. You are here to represent people. If you continue with that mood, you will, probably, jump here and there will be a fight. What are you going to achieve? I have noticed you several times even when the Vice-President was speaking. Be a gentleman. You can argue with a smile on your face while putting up strong views.

Will the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Dr Sondashi: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I was saying creation of a position goes with emoluments. Would it be in order, Sir, for an hon. Member of Parliament to propose the abolition of payment of emoluments on a position that has been created by the President under the Constitution? That will be an indirect way of abolishing the position. Could that be in order? Mr Chairman, this requires your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Thank you for that point of order. When hon. Patel was debating this issue of district administrators, the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs raised the same point of order and I ruled here that Article 61 (1) of the Constitution says that the authority to create offices for the Republic and also to abolish such offices is vested in the President. Section 2 goes to the appointment of personnel to fill those offices. Again, it says the appointment is vested in the President. I made that ruling, but in spite of that ruling, we have not heeded and that is where we are today. Everything is there in black and white. We have lawyers on both sides of the House and Article 61 is easy to understand. We do not see reason why we are even debating this. I am not here to participate in the debate, but to guide the debates.

Will the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Ng’uni: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Like I was saying, I totally support hon. Sichinga’s point. What makes hon. Members of Parliament on your left uncomfortable about the moves the Government makes is mistrust. We are not against anybody whose position would be created as a link between the Government and the local authority, but we are saying the system that is there right now has failed to function. There are substantial reasons why we are saying that. We are saying a new system of administration is going to be created at local level and we all agree that district administrators have, basically, been political party cadres. Then we should agree that for now, to phase them out until such a time that an amicable and agreeable method of administration at local level is agreed upon.

We are saying all this on behalf of people who elected us to this House. At the end of the day, the views, the fears and displeasures we are expressing here are basically coming from people who voted us into office. The position of district administrator should be suspended for now. Let us remove the component of emoluments for district administrators and then those below can continue in acting capacities until such a time that a proper method of administration is agreed upon mutually by the whole House.

In the mean time, if you terminate the employment of somebody, naturally, they should be paid their terminal benefits like any other person who has been fired at a later stage. There is already an existing method of paying those whose services have been terminated. So, I do not see any complication at all. Mr Chairman, the insistence of the Government on leaving the portion of moneys for district administrators clearly confirms here that their intention to get rid of this particular situation is not noble. They are, actually, misinforming the nation. 

Interruptions.

Mr Ng’uni: It is true. Even after four or six months from now, the opposition is prepared to come and authorise allocations towards people who will be in the position of the people who have currently failed to perform. We do not want party cadres. After all, the Budget has a provision for supplementaries. We are not saying we are going to squash these monies completely. We will put them in suspense and later on come back. 

Why are we insisting that only these people, the current district administrators, are the only ones who can perform at local level? We have enough intellectuals in this House and the President had asked us to look at the modalities of coming up with a proper, foolproof and amicable method of administering local authorities because there will be devolution of administration.

 If you are insisting on employing party cadres who are going to go into political battle fronts, who are going to administer activities of the Government at district level, they will not be in good books with the district executive secretary, for example, or the head of a news agency. He will go and tell the news agency not to cover so and so because he is in the opposition. If you may excuse me, Sir, most of them are political cadres whose thinking is of stone-age era. They do not want to agree and accept that politics of today is multi-party and it calls for a lot of tolerance. You may be from UNIP or UPND, but at the end of the day, we have one country.

The Chairman: Order! We are not here for political science. We are discussing this move by hon. Sichinga. I advise you, if you support it, give your reasons why and sit down. There are still several hon. Members who want to contribute.

If you begin lecturing to us on political science, nobody is going to listen.

Laughter.

The Chairman: We will lose interest. Please continue.

Mr Ngu’ni: I would like to thank you for your guidance but you must realise that we are new entrants in politics and your guidance like always is very handy.

I basically support the motion moved by Hon. Sichinga and I will totally rally behind him. I would like the nation to realise that we want right to be right and wrong to be wrong.

I thank you very much, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: I would like to make one correction before I give the Floor to another hon. Member.

The budget cannot be done in splits as you suggest. We can not be called back to budget for this. No, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning budgets for the whole nation and you came here to approve this budget within a specific period. So that you do that once and forget about it. So, it is not a household budget where every month you sit with your wife to say, ‘Look, what are we buying this month?’

Laughter.

The Chairman: That is not the thing.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): I stand to support the amendment proposed by my colleague Hon. Sichinga. I feel that this is necessary for the following reasons.

Sir, before, I go into that, I would like to state that if indeed the figures that Hon. Sichinga has given are wrong, I would have expected that His Honour the Vice-President would have given us what he considers to be the correct figures. In the absence of any contradictory figures to those my colleague stated, we take it that his figures are correct and we will go by them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: His Honour the Vice-President has stated that there will be costs whether or not we lay them off. What the Vice-President has neglected to tell the House is that when you lay off somebody you will not pay them for fuel, they will not be going out of station and earning night allowances. They will not be burning up fuel as the District Administrators do from one corner of Zambia to the other.

So, in other words, it is a bold truth to say that the figures would be the same. They will not necessarily go down. I know that these District Administrators consume more in terms of allowances than they do from their salaries. So, there would still be a major saving. We have seen them coming to just receive the President at the airport. They travel from all over and receive allowances for that. They burn up fuel just for that.

Mr Hachipuka: They are in every by-election.

Mr Sikota: They are in every by-election and there is already one by-election and the average number of District Administrators that go to each by-election is between fourteen and eighteen. Basically every single District Administrator in a province goes to a by-election. Whilst they are there, each night they receive night allowances. All that is in these other emoluments which are here. If you lay them off, you will make massive savings. 

We have not even talked about the cellular phones that are used by District Administrators. Last year, this Government spent over K60 billion on cellular phones. Part of that are cellular phone calls made by the them. That is a fact.

The Vice President: On a point or order, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka: Call made to the President.

Mr Sikota: If you retire them now, part of their retirement package is not to continue paying for their cellular phones. Again, you will make a massive saving on those cellular phones. That K60 billion that was spent by Government will be reduced drastically because we all know the propensity of the District Administrators at talking.

Laughter.

Mr Sikota: the Vice-President has stated that apart from District Administrators, there is support staff underneath them. That maybe true but there is no need for these support staff to actually lose their jobs because looking at the Establishment Registers they can be absorbed in other departments and ministries. So, that is not going to be a big problem.

Sir, to state that these people are going to face some kind of re-orientation or retraining is a waste of money. His Honour the Vice-President has illustrated very ably how incompetent and how irrelevant these District Administrators are. They were hear, hears coming from this side of the House (Government side) when you explained the problems he himself faces with these District Administrators. 

Now, to expect how …

Mr Situmbeko: How cantankerous.

Mr Sikota: … cantankerous these District Administrators are…

Laughter.

Mr Sikota: .. to borrow His Honour’s words.

Now if we waste money to re-orient or try to re-orient these people we will be wasting more money. Besides, we all know that it is very difficult for a leopard to change its spots. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: There is no chance of these cantankerous people ever reforming.

Laughter.

Mr Sikota: What we need to do is to remove them completely. Clean the slate. 

Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: You remove people by telling them that you are no longer required to report to this office, ‘Park your vehicle there and hand over your cellular phone. Stay at home, we will send you your package when it is ready’. That is how you retire people. You do not pamper them and keep them running all over the country. 

The Vice President: Give them notice.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Sikota: The Vice-President has also stated that there is going to be a process of debating what form the office should take and whether it is necessary. We have been told that there is a six months period that would be there. I am not a certified accountant like my colleague Hon. Sichinga but I can do ordinary arithmetic. We are in the fourth elementary arithmetic. 

We are in the fourth month and if we have a six months discussion period, we will be running into the tenth month. That is when these consultations will finish. When all the consultations are finished, Cabinet or whoever will have to sit down to then come up with a paper as to how this thing should come about. Even if they are terribly efficient and, let us give them a month, we will be in November and that is when you are going to have adverts for these people you want to recruit. Certainly you will not be carrying out interviews over Christmas period. So, probably January is when you are going to interview them. You cannot have them in place before February with the kind of time score they are talking about. 

So why provide salaries to people who you will not recruit this year. It does not make sense. That is why we should take it out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Article 61 which we have referred to says, ‘Subject to the other provision of this Constitution - and I think that is the most important part ‘Subject to the other provisions of this Constitution.

Other provisions of this constitution are Article 44 which says without prejudice to the generality of Clause 1 and this is Article 44 (2) (e) establish and dissolve such Government ministries and departments subject to the approval to the National Assembly. And the Department of District Administrators was not approved by this National Assembly. So, when we talk about Article 61, we should remember that word ‘subject’ to the other provisions of this Constitution.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: the very reason that these things come to Parliament is because the law recognises that we are to check on the Executive Powers. The whole essence of our democracy is on checks and balances. Therefore, there are people who set up offices and others who ratify those offices.

There are people who can set up offices and others who can decide whether or not to vote money for those offices if at all, it is all part of the checks and balances. It is up to the Executive to come and convince us that there is a valid reason to pay for certain offices. Right now, from His Honour the Vice-President’s contribution earlier on, all he has done is give very good reasons why we should not vote any money to this wasteful office. It is acknowledged even by His Honour that it is wasteful. They need to go now. 

There is no need for us to make them a super breed of people. People have been laid off before in this country. Some of them, we are told, are not even going to get their money. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning stated that there is a K40 billion shortfall. So, some people you are not even considering this year. You know about them but deliberately you have said even though there is K40 billion, we will not cater for them. Why are we crying over what His Honour the Vice-President calls, these “cantankerous people”?

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter.

The Chairman: May I appeal to you hon. Members. Do not misconstrue my words. Please, we are dealing with human beings as we are. One of the cardinal component of a Member of Parliament is not to impose hardship on human beings.

Hon. Opposition Members: Interjected.

The Chairman: I am neither on each side. I just want to guide you. When you are debating, think that these people we are dealing with are family members and they have got dependants. Now, to abruptly impose hardship on them and throw them on the streets is inhuman and is not within the precincts of a parliamentarians’ jurisdiction. So, you must device a system of avoiding hardship of their family members. I do not mind which way you go, whether you abolish the office and so on, but as long as we reduce hardship on the family members. Some of you are mothers; you are a mother…

The Chairman pointing at Hon. Sialumba. {mospagebreak}

Laughter.

The Chairman: … and you have been talking about it several times. How would you like your children to be in the street the following morning? You need a bit of space to prepare yourselves and so on.

Interruptions.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to contribute to this very exciting debate.

Mr Chairman, I support the amendment that my colleague Hon. Sichinga has put through for these reasons. And before I give the reasons I would like to clarify the point raised by Hon. Sondashi. 

Hon. Sondashi is sitting on the Front Bench and is a very senior advisor to the President. I would like to advise the Front Bench that this time round, they should not go to His Excellency, President Mwanawasa, to give him advice to create offices and ultimately come here. They should desist from giving wrong advice to the President because they think the Constitution allows him to create offices. What happened last year was a miscarriage of justice and was a misinterpretation of the Constitution.

Mr Mtonga: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: There are some people here who rushed to the former President, Chiluba, to tell him that he could create these offices because Parliament is inconsequential. And then they went ahead and came here and announced that these offices had been created and they started to pay. I think, I would like to warn my colleagues that we should not go and give the President wrong advice.

The second point I would like to raise, in supporting this amendment, is that if you look at the Yellow Book, the figures have a twelve-month provision. They are assuming that the Office of the DA, even after we have all been consulted, we will continue paying for the next twelve months because there is a provision for twelve months in the Yellow Book. 

Our objection, Mr Chairman, is that we feel that this crop of district administrators must go. And in going, they should be given notice. Three months salary is enough in lieu of notice. We do not need to approve these figures here provided by the Yellow Book that provides for twelve months. I was going to go into the individual figures but my colleague Hon. Sakwiba Sikota has given you the breakdown of why it is not wise for this House to approve figures which when these offices cease to exist they would not be expendable. I would hate that this House approves figures that anybody can spend once we come out of this.

So, I suggest that the Government later on comes here, through the Public Service Commission to ask for a supplementary for us to pay off their DAs.

Mr Mtonga: Their DAs?

Mr Hachipuka: Yes, they are not ours. They are their DAs. 

You come back to this House and ask for a supplementary. We will very gladly give you because by that time you will be giving us specific figures of what you need to pay each of the seventy-two DAs. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Hachipuka: We will be very happy to do that. 

In the meantime, it is my interest and our interest here to make sure that the money we are saving from the DAs goes to Local Government. The Local Government is starving of funds and I would expect that they come later on to ask for supplementary on councils. The council is a legitimate wing that we should reach our people and everybody knows. We are trying to create another structure on top of another structure.

Mr Chairman, in my summary, I welcome and I advise my colleagues that when the supplementary comes, and we will be able to check it, specifically for dispensation of services from DAs, I will recommend to my colleagues and I will urge my colleagues to support that. But for now, the only way we think you will be able to act quickly and release them, and let them go is by denying you this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairman, first of all, I understand and appreciate the context in which Hon. Sichinga has floated the same idea we are now debating. I also appreciate the fact that His Honour has sufficiently acknowledged the inadequacies inherent in the same office. And according to him, he is saying, give us time to systematically phase out these officers. That is if I understood him properly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: And I am saying out of compassion, we should allow these officers to be phased out systematically.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I am aware that all of us who are here have been managers in one way or another. I have been a top civil servant and I know what it means to declare a person redundant, especially when that person is not psychologically prepared.

Miss Sialumba: Aah ba Kasongo!

Mr Kasongo: I know what it means. It is a burden that you place not only on that person that you are going to declare redundant but also on the members of his family.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: He is a bread winner in one way or another and the moment you say, this is your exit minus that retirement package, you are creating other problems.

We have debated a number of ministries and I think all us stood firmly on redundancies, all of us. Especially when it came to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, we spoke our minds that we would not like to see further redundancies without adequate preparations on the part of the employers in terms of the retirement package. That is the stand that we took. Now, I am surprised that we are going backwards and saying these officers must go. Out of compassion, Mr Chairman, we are dealing with human beings. 

Even in our constituencies, the same people we are saying they must go, they will be coming to us to say, 'I have nowhere to take my children.' 

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kasongo: Yes, these are realities of life.

Mr Chairman, the beauty about our democracy is that we have agreed to disagree. This what I am doing. Out of compassion, I am pleading with my elder brother that the plight of a loafer, that person you want to declare redundant, is well known to all of us. I personally would not like to be a part to that kind of arrangement which is going to add to the number of people who are currently unemployed. We are not addressing the problem of unemployment in the country.

Sir, what I am saying is that I appreciate the manner and the context in which my elder brother has floated the same idea but I am saying on compassion, let us allow the Government to systematically phase out these officers we are talking about.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I have been challenged by my sister here that we should watch the time frame. That is something that can be determined by the Government. If only we can give them the time frame. There is nothing wrong in doing that. 

Mr Chairman, in other words, I am again pleading with my elder brother that out of compassion, let us allow the same officers to continue performing their functions until such a time when we are ready to give their retirement package and congratulate them for their services.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairman, I stand to support Hon. Sichinga’s motion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: These are my reasons.

Mr Chairman, in the first place, I think let us look back at how this office was created. My understanding of local administration is that currently, the Government departments under each district are supported by a piece of legislation. If you look, for example, at the Medical Director, he reports straight to the Permanent Secretary at the Ministry of Health. If you look at the Local Government Town Clerk or Chairperson, they are reporting directly to the Permanent Secretary, Local Government. If you look at the legislation that is governing these departments, there is no mention of the office of District Administrator. Now, what has happened over the past few years is that there is just total confusion and duplication and wastage of money in the district.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I am not here to question the powers of the President but I am here to add my voice against the expenditures on offices that are just duplicating and creating confusion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I appreciate what His Honour the Vice-President has said that they need time to phase out this office but the problem that I find myself in is it looks like as Zambians, we always want to justice a wrong.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I think that when the former President, Dr Chiluba was creating this office, at least, he did describe its role and he simply said that it was a party office to co-ordinate party activities together with development. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Now, the New has not told us what they want to do with this Office. Unless they tell us that this office - because under a democratic arrangement where you have several political parties, this office can only be doing politics and nothing else. As it stands now, almost all the functions in a district have somebody performing those functions and the question of co-ordinating does not arise. Infact, they have no job description apart from terms of reference. They are politicians.

So, let us agree. What are we talking about? I am personally disappointed because I thought really, this is going to be a Government of Laws and not of men. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Correct!

Mrs Masebo: If something is wrong, it is wrong. Let us make it correct. We should not go round and round creating more problems for ourselves.

Now, I know that the tendency in this House is to think that those that speak against something, therefore, means they are against. It is not that we are against and those that are supporting even the wrong things are the ones who are for President Mwanawasa. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: This is the problem that has always been created in this country. We have too many good girls and good boys. Even when something is wrong, they have no guts to tell the President that this is wrong, let us remove it.

Mr Chairman, they have come here to ask that we support them. For me, really, I have no confidence anymore. I am not even sure whether in the next six months, this office will be phased out. This is because I know that it is always nice to give friends jobs. If they came here and said that these people would  be in office for the next three months so that we phase them and we need this kind of money to do that particular job - even six months, as they are saying we shall be phasing them out, I will support them. But what they are saying is that we should give them money for twelve months and they shall be employing the qualified people. It is not about employing even qualified people. This is just a wrong office altogether. With the little that I understand, there is no co-ordination. There are people who can do that job. You are not going to create jobs where you are going to pay one person more money and say that you are creating employment as my brother, Hon. Kasongo, said. Let us be fair. If a mistake was made, let us correct it. 

I, personally, am getting disappointed with this Government because it looks like now we are just going back to the Chiluba Administration. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Let us be seen to be different. If you look attitude of the Zambians from day one, we have been supportive and the people are supportive of this administration. But now, if you read between the lines from the private papers, they are getting disappointed. Just be careful because you will just become like the previous administration. It is clear that there is too much of trying to be good boys and good girls in this House especially in the Front and Back bench. 

When you try to speak, somebody will write you a note and say, 'We are disappointed.' Do not be disappointed. I am here to speak on behalf of the constituency. That is what I am here for. It is does not mean that when I differ with you it means I am against. Maybe, I am even more for the Government than even some of you. You are just there for jobs, some of you there.

If something is wrong, let us correct it for our own benefit but also some of my colleagues here were in the previous Government. I have a problem with some of my colleagues even in Opposition side. When this issue of DAs started, some of us were in the ruling party and we talked to some of those who were ministers and now are here. They said this office is just creating problems. They defended it but now they have changed because they are on this side (Opposition).

We cannot run a country with double standards. Let us be consistent. You are confusing some of us. Some of us are new here and you see us keeping quiet, you think we are dull. We are just watching all of you, both this side and that side. Some of you want to talk and talk and think that you are the ones who understand more. We also understand.

Mrs Masebo drank water.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairman, I want to say this that I am not here to create confusion for the new administration because at the end of the day, your problem is our problem. We have been talking here about the problem of food. Chongwe is the worst hit and yet we are near town. So, if you fail, we are also going to fail. I am sure if you succeed, I will succeed and I am very sure that in the next five years, I will come back. It is for that purpose that I shall vote with you today if you are going to vote on this motion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We still have five years to go. We want the office of the DA to go. We do not want it. There is nothing this office can do in a multi-party arrangement. It is just a confused office and creating confusion. Right now, in most of the districts, you will find that these people are just fighting and there is a lot of wastage of resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: If you have observed, we are not timing anybody.

Now, if you become selfish, you can speak for five hours and I do not mind, but you are not doing any good service. When some of you are given the Floor, you just keep on saying what other people have said and what you have already said in different phrases. That is not a good way of debating. There are some good debaters here and I do not want to mention their names, otherwise, I will jeopardise their positions who when you give them the Floor, it is just straight and to the point and when he finishes, he sits down.

You should listen to them and follow them. I am not going to mention anybody, but you should listen to them. As Hon. Sibetta said, we will be here until 1400 hours tomorrow and we will ask the security officers to lock up the gates and run away.

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairman, I stand to support the amendment for the very reason that this Government actually did not make any Budget at all for District Administrators. If you look in the Yellow Book on 91/52 – there is no budget. In this case, Government indicated that they do not wish to have the office of the District Administrators. It took us time to find out where they put money for District Administrators. If it is that important to maintain this office, I wonder why this Government did not allocate any budget on the Vote concerning District Administrators. 

It means, therefore, what we are talking about is that we are simply agreeing with the Government that the District Administrators do not need to exist at all. At least the new culture Government was honest enough to show what money they needed for the District Administrators. But the New Deal Government is saying that it does not need the District Administrators on one hand, therefore, it did not budget for them. On the other hand, they hide figures on another Vote.

So, His Honour the Vice-President clearly stated that they have put the money under the provincial administration. Why hide? Since they have also agreed that they do not need to budget for the District Administrators, then we agree with the Government that we should not budget for them and whatever the Government has put wrongly anywhere else will be removed. If you did not want the District Administrators to go, you should have budgeted for them.

Furthermore, Sir, the Government has talked about three months. Who does not know that District Administrators were fired by the President. The President simply fired the District Administrators for Kalomo, Siavonga and Sesheke without three months notice. What is this three months notice for?

We will agree with you with the provisions given in the Constitution and the positions created by the President that the Government has refused to budget for. If you have hidden it anywhere as you have agreed, you should remove it because you do not need it. You do not need the budget for the District Administrators because you have budgeted for them. The Votes for District Administrators have been removed. Can you throw away whatever you have hidden?

So, we are now supporting the amendment to help you.

Thank you, Sir.

The Chairman: We have to make progress. Is there anybody who has got different views from what has been expressed?

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: Is the Opposition supporting the amendment or against?

Hon. Opposition Members: We are supporting the amendment.

The Chairman: Is the Government supporting the amendment or against?

Hon. Government Members: We are against.

The Chairman: I would like to put a question because we can debate this until tomorrow.

Interruptions.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Mr Hachipuka called for division.

Question that Vote 91/01 – Office of the Vice-President – Copperbelt Province – 

Headquarters – K2,554,649,524 stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes (71)

Mr Badat
Mr C. R. Banda
Mr R. J. Banda
Mrs R. C. Banda
Mr Y. H. Banda
Mr Chibanga
Mr Chikoti
Mr Chitanga
Mr Gray
Mr Haakaloba
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Imenda
Miss Jere
Mr Kabaghe
Mr Kakoma
Miss Kakoma
Mr Kalumiana
Mr Kangwa
Mr Kapita
Mr Kasoko
Mr Katoka
Mr Kayaba
Mr Liato
Mr Lubinda
Mr Lungu
Colonel Makumba
Mrs Masebo
Mr Masowe
Mr Matongo
Mr Moonde
Captain Moono
Mr Mooya
Mr Mutonga
Mr Mubiana
Mr Mudenda
Mr Muleya
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr Nakalonga
Mr Nang’omba
Miss Nawa
Mr Ng’uni
Mr L. J. Ngoma
Miss Nkumbula-Liebenthal
Mr Ntundu
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Nzowa
Mr Patel
Mr L. L. Phiri
Mr P. G. Phiri
Mr Pwele
Mr Samukonga
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Shemena
Mr Shepande
Mr Shumina
Mr Siakalima
Miss Sialumba
Mr Sibetta
Mr Sichinga
Mr Sikota
Mr Simenda
Mr Situmbeko
Mr Tetamashimba
Miss Wamulume
Mrs I. M. Wina
Major-General Zulu
Mr P. M. Zulu

Tellers for Ayes: Mr J. J. Mwimbu and Dr P. D. Machungwa

Noes (73)

Mr  Appel
Mr A. Banda
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chama
Mr Chambeshi
Mr Chewe
Mr Chibamba
Mr J.S. Chilufya
Mr S. Chilufya
Ms R. Chipampe
Mr S.B Chipampe
Mr Chipili
Mr Chisala
Ms Chisupa
Mr Chitala
Dr  Chituwo
Mr Chola
Mr G.C. Chulumanda
Mr R.K. Chulumanda
Mr A. J. D. Chungu
Mr E. K. Chungu
Mr Filamba
Lieutenant-Colonel  Kafumukache
Mr Kalifungwa
Dr. Kalumba
Mr. Kalunga
Mr Kamwendo
Mrs Kapijimpanga
Mr Kasonde
Mr Kasongo
Mr Katema
Mr Kavindele
Mr Kazala-Laski
Mr Kombe
Mr Kunda
Mr Lembalemba
Mr Mabenga
Mr Manjata
Mr Mapushi
Mr Mazimba
Mr Mfula
Mr Mpombo
Mr Mukuka 
Mr Mulanda
Mr Mulela
Mr Mulenga
Mr Muliokela
Mr Mumba
Mr Musanya
Mr Mushala
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwaba
Mr Mwaimba
Mr Mwape
Mrs Nalumango
Miss Namugala
Mr Namuyamba
Mr P. A. Ngoma
Mr Nsanda
Mrs Nsingo
Mr Sakeni
Mr Sambwa
Mr Chitalu M. Sampa
Mr Chiti M. Sampa
Mr Sichilima
Mr Sikatana
Mr Silavwe
Mr Silwamba
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinkala
Mr Sokontwe
Dr Sondashi
Mr Zimba

Tellers for Noes: M. W. Mwape and G. Sichilima

Vote 91/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 

Vote 91/06 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/07 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/08 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/09 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/16 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/17 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/18 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/23 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/24 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/25 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/35 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/36 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/37 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/38 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/40 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/41 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/42 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/43 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/44 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/45 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/46 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/47 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/48 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/49 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 91/51 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

VOTE 91/55 (Office of the President – Copperbelt Province – Lands and Deeds – K140,174,897).

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairman, as a matter of interest, I want to know whether it is an error or coincidence I find between Head 91/35, department of Lands and Deeds - Functional Total being K140,174,897 exactly the same as Lands Department Head 91/17. That coincidence is too much. Is that normal or what?

The Vice-President: It is normal.

The Chairman: Are you satisfied? {mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairman, there is the Department of Lands and the other one is also Department of Lands exactly with the same Functional Total in the same province. Would we not be getting repetition of figures? This is the only province that has got lands and deeds.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Progress!

Vote 91/52 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/01 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/06 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/07 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/08 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/09 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/16 ordered to stand part of the estimates.

Vote 92/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairman, drink some water.

The Chairman: I do not want you people to sleep in the Chair.

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga: But we are here with you.

The Chairman: Drunk some water.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 94/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote95/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: We have finished provincial administration.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairman: We dealt with capital expenditure on Vote 08/01. So, now we move to function total.

VOTE 08/01 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K51,020,909,942)

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairman, can I move my amendments now?

The Vice-President: Do you want Division?

Mr Patel: No problem. That is democracy.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on:

(i)    Sub-Head 5 – construction of Former President’s Houses – ‘1,000,000,000’, and the substitution therefore of ‘500,000,000, and
(ii)    The Function Total, under the ‘2002 Estimate’ column, is amended by the deletion of ’48,240,732,499’ and the substitution therefore of ’47,740,732,499’

The Chairman: Is it the construction of former Presidents’ houses?

Mr Patel: Yes. The amendment has been circulated.

The Chairman: Let him move on. Are you amending this figure of K44,586,720?  We will go by the total figure, capital expenditure.

Mr Patel: Mr Chairman, we had circulated two amendments on this particular Vote 08 – Cabinet Office. Both deal with the issues of the immediate former President. 

Mr Chairman, I wish to inform you in good faith that, we had reached an agreement with the learned hon. Minister of Legal Affairs together with Hon. Silwimba. I am a little perplexed that despite the agreement, and I hold the learned hon. Minister of Legal Affairs that he is man of integrity.

The Vice-President: Do you want a division?

Mr Patel: No problem. It is democracy.

The Vice-President: What are you saying?

Mr Patel: Please, hear me, your Honour.

The Vice-President: A division?

Mr Patel: An agreement was reached and I am perplexed that the amendments that were agreed upon have not been circulated. So, I wish to seek clarification before we decide whether to move ahead with this proposed amendment as what we had agreed upon is as follows. That on capital expenditure, the item will remain as it is. On the Head 08/05, it will be reduced by three months, meaning, from K277,536,999, it will go down to K208,152,750. That is what we had agreed upon. 

Now I would like to seek clarification from His Honour the Vice-President on this matter if he agrees that is what the total is. I will also seek a further clarification because he has not circulated the amendments. So what does that mean? Do I then move the agreed amount? Or does His Honour the Vice-President want to clarify the position in the absence of non-circulation of the amendments that are in accordance with the Standing Orders which your, I am familiar with.

Thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, Sir, with your indulgence, I wish to make a resubmission of the Estimates of Expenditure for 2002 in respect of Cabinet Office Expenditure 08/01 and in particular, Function 05 – Office of the Second Former President.

Mr Chairman, hon. Members would recall that consideration of Head 08/05 – Cabinet Office – Office of the Former President II was deferred following observations made by hon. Members. 

Mr Chairman, we now have evidence that the second former President, Dr Chiluba, has retired. And from Government’s side, we have no problem in reducing Dr Chiluba’s benefits by three month’s allocation amounting to K69,384,193. With this reduction, the allocation in the Budget will be K208,152,806.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Mr Chairman, Sir, I, therefore, withdraw my amendment on 08/01 and when we come to the other amendment, I will do so accordingly.

Vote 08/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08/05 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Office of the Former President II – K277,536,999).

Mr Patel: Mr Chairman, Sir, in view of the fact that His Honour the Vice-President has agreed that the function total will now read K208,152,750, if that stands as part of the Estimates for this Vote, I withdraw my amendment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear

Vote 08/05, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Chairman: We have finished with Cabinet Office.

Mr Sichinga: No, but the total figure has to be adjusted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

The Chairman: The amendment has been agreed to.

Mr Sichinga: I agree, but what about the total figure? It has to be adjusted?

Interruptions.

VOTE 99/01 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – K5, 676, 754, 293,934).

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I believe I am required to explain the composition of the Head as demanded by hon. Members yesterday. 

Mr Chairman, Vote 99/02 - Debt Service – Internal – K500, 000, 000 is meant to cater for servicing of internal debt accrued by Government. The debt consists of payments of interest on Treasury Bills and Government Bonds. The increase in the provision from K376 Billion in 2001 to K500 Billion in 2202 is due to increased Government indebtedness to the domestic financial systems.

On Vote 99/03 - Debt Service – External – K366, 000, 000, 000, this provision of K366 billion is meant to cater for servicing of external debt obligation to various creditors.

The decrease in the 2002 provision of K427 billion from the 2001 figure of K793 billion is due to savings under the HIPC Initiative on the debt obligation. In 2001, the projected debt service was US$160 million while in 2002 projected debt service is US$ K88 million.

Mr Chairman, on Vote 99/04 - Constitutional Posts – K5, 000, 000, this provision of K5 billion is meant to cater for payment of salaries and other obligations and other emolument to constitution Posts. The increase in the 2002 provision is due to the anticipated increase in the constitutional post holders’ remuneration.

On Vote 99/05 - Other – K20, 000, 000, 000, this provision of K20 billion is meant to cater for wages adjustments for teachers who were awarded increment in 2001 to cover only for one year. Negotiations have already started with Government. The decrease in the provision from K105 billion to K20 billion in 2002 is due to the fact that only teachers’ salaries will be adjusted upwards this year, since all public service workers had their wage adjustments effected last year.

On Vote 99/06  - Contingency – K25, 711, 951,185, this provision of K26 billion is meant to cater for unforeseen expenditure such as natural national disasters.

Mr Chairman, I thank you. 

Hon Members: Hear,  hear!

Mr Chairman: Hon Sichinga, you want to open up another debate.

Mr Sichinga: I want to seek clarification of the last two items, Sir.

Mr Chairman: Which items?

Mr Sichinga: The ‘Other’ and ‘Contingency’. {mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, Vote 99/05 - Other, the provision is K20 billion which is meant to cater for wage adjustments for teachers who were awarded increments in 2001 to cover only for one year.  Negotiations have already started with Government.

However, the decrease in the provision from K105 billion to K20 billion in 2002 is due to the fact that, only teachers’ salaries will be adjusted upwards this year, since all public service workers had their wage adjustments effected last year. 

On Vote 99/06 Contingency, the provision of K26 billion is meant to cater for unforeseen expenditures such as natural national disasters. Sir, in the debate, Hon Members of this august House have for instance, raised the issue of relief maize. They have mentioned the shortages all over the country. So, somehow, Government has to be ready with some funding so that in the invent that there is a national calamity of some sort, then we would rush in using this Vote. 

I thank you, Sir.

 Question put and agreed to.

Interruptions.

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: You are now working.

The Chairman: Order! You can, now, break for dinner and then come back because the Appropriation Bill is being printed and it will be ready in an hour’s time. So, we cannot ask the Speaker to come in.

Mr Sibetta: They should thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where is dinner?

The Chairman: Order! Everybody will go down stairs for dinner …

Mr L L Phiri: Invited by you.

Mr Chairman: … invited by the hon. Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: They should thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

The Chairman: Unfortunately, dinner is not accompanied by any throat soothing drink.

Interruptions.

The Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 2011 hours until 2130 hours

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Estimates of Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) for the year 1st January, 2002 to 31st December, 2002 were reported to the House as having passed through committee with amendments.

Report adopted and Mr Speaker appointed the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of Supply.

BILLS

FIRST READING

The following Bill was ready the first time:

The Appropriation Bill, 2002

Second reading now.

SECOND READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2002

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Chairman, allow me to thank the leader of the House, His Honour the Vice-President for the able manner in which he arranged the programmes of the proceedings given the time constraint.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: May I also thank you, Sir, and the Deputy Speaker, for your able guidance during the deliberations,…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: …the Clerk and his staff for their support during the proceedings of this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Kasonde: Sir, let me pay special tribute to the hon. Members of Parliament for their valuable contributions and suggestions made during the Budget Session. The Government has taken note of them and when possible, steps will be taken to see how best these suggestions can be implemented.

Mr Speaker, as I have stated before, the New Deal Government seeks to diversify the economy from the heavy dependence on wasting assets of copper to more viable productive sectors such as agriculture, agro-processing, manufacturing and tourism. As is evidenced in the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure, the Government has allocated substantial sums of money to these sectors as a way of putting the country back to its sustainable economic growth path.

My Government, Sir, is equally very much committed to the improvement of social service delivery. It is in this context that the Government has allocated a bigger share of the resources to the social sector so that our people are not only fed, but also have good education, sound health, safe drinking water and good sanitation. Mr Speaker, as we go back to our constituencies to explain Government policies, let us also bear in mind, that when measures have been announced in the Budget Statement, it is after a thorough examination as to their impact on the tax payers with regard to the cost benefit analysis. Therefore, any adjustment that may be made would result into the Budget being thrown off balance or Government being unable to fulfill certain commitments.

Mr Speaker, may I urge hon. Members, especially those from the Opposition, to participate in the Budget process. The best way of doing that is by presenting their views to the Government at the time that the Budget is in the course of preparation, rather than trying to ambush Government, as was the case recently.

Interruptions.

Mr Kasonde: This Government is open to any suggestions and the Opposition is welcome to make any positive contributions. 

Sir, following a further reduction of Excise Duty on diesel from 45 per cent to 30 per cent, which has resulted into a revenue loss of K41 billion, the total Appropriation Bill 2002 has, correspondingly, been reduced to K5,635,754,293,934 from K5,676,754,293,934. Since effecting the actual reductions at item and sub-item level would mean re-writing the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure Book again in that Votes of expenditure affected are numerous, these details will be reflected in the Financial Report.

Mr Speaker, it is, however, hoped that there will be an improvement in the revenue collection during the financial year to cover the reduced amount in which event I will come back to this august House to seek approval of supplementary estimates.

Mr Speaker, the Bill that I have presented to the House rwaps up the debate that started on Tuesday, 5th March, 2002, following my Budget presentation to this House on 1st March, 2002.

Mr Speaker, it is now my honour and humble privilege to commend it to the House and, accordingly, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me this opportunity. As we wind up the debate, I think, a few comments would be in order, so as to complement what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has said.

The Appropriation Bill, Sir, represents a culmination and conglomeration, a summation of the work that has taken many, many months. Sir, I want to preface my remarks by saying that the Opposition is a very, very responsible Opposition.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: We try our best to provide the oversight that is necessary in a democratic dispensation. There is no intention on our part to ambush the Government in any way. Mr Speaker, it is important, I think, to urge our colleagues in the Government that we mean well. We do not want to be misunderstood. We want them to know that we mean well, but the new dispensation requires that we exercise extra care in the manner in which we exercise that responsibility, stewardship and representation. 

I am saying to the hon. Leader of this House, His Honour the Vice-President, to take us as we indicate to you. We mean well. Please, there is no hidden agenda up anybody’s sleeve.  I believe, Sir, that the whole Budget orientation of this House needs to change. There is a Committee of your House, Sir, which is the Estimates Committee. That is the appropriate committee that should be used as far as Parliament is concerned. It is the right forum to engage in consultation processes and I believe that if this method had been used, there would have been no question of so-called ambushes. There are not any intended.

However, Sir, Zambia’s problem is not of resources. Zambia’s problem, Sir, is that of prioritisation. We need to get our priorities right. It is ever so important, Sir, to recognise that the taste of the pudding is always in its eating. Here in this House, Sir, in Zambia’s economic environment, what we have seen has been a retrogression of our country. 

I want therefore, Sir, to refer to a copy of the Zambia Human Development Report for the year 1999/2000, which I have in hands here. I would like to say that over the last few years and I will quote the figures that have been given. Sir, this is a Government produced document in collaboration with the United Nations Development Programme UNDP).

Sir, these are the figures that are helping us as far as the economic indicators are concerned. The Gross Domestic Product of our country (GDP), in 1997 was 3.5 per cent. In 1898, it was minus 1.8 per cent and in 1999 it was 2.4 per cent. Inflation rates in our country for the same years, has been as follows; 1997, 24.8 per cent, 1898, 24.3 per cent and for 1999, 20.6 per cent according to the Government figures.

Sir, we can go a little further and say in so far as it relates to sustainable livelihoods, we are finding the following remarks made in this report, Sir, and wish to quote. 

The chapter heading is Intervention for Sustainable Livelihoods and Human Development and I quote.

    ‘The considerable potential that Zambia has to achieve sustainable growth ensure sustainable livelihoods for all its citizens and promote sustainable human development is not in dispute. Yet, as a situation stands today, Zambia is confronted by extensive poverty and deprivation, which has seriously compromised the country’s human development. Not only is Zambia’s human development status lagging behind that of other countries in the region, there has also been serious reversals to the achievements recorded before the 1980s.’  

Today’s human development status for Zambia is lower than it was during the middle 1970s. This state of low human development of the country, as a whole seems paradoxical in the context of vast array of quantities of resources, economical, social, natural and physical that the country has. Zambia has to harness these resources and score the simultaneous achievement of economic and reduction in poverty’.

Hon. Government Members: Fyafula!

Mr Sichinga: This report also lists the interventions that are necessary. 

My dear colleagues, if we continue on the path where we simply state without dealing with facts, we are not going to move. We are using this opportunity of this Appropriation Bill to sum up what we need to do. What interventions we require. It affects your children, my children and generations to come. We cannot take this matter lightly. Tomorrow is made today. Today was made yesterday. So, it is important for us to recognise that.

Sir, I wish, therefore, to state that we need time for adequate analysis and adequate debate on the Estimates of this House. This year, we were so rushed that we could only allow two debaters for each province. 

Sir, we submit also that as we go out, the Government is expected to establish austerity measures that are absolutely important and necessary so that we avoid wastage as a country. For that reason, Sir, I rise to endorse this Appropriation Bill, with the remarks that we have made and we sincerely hope that the Government will take them and especially our colleagues in the MMD, will take them with the spirit with which they are intended. We are, all here stakeholders, Zambia incorporated.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Sir, I wish to support the Bill, and in doing so, allow me to remind the Government about the commitment and promises that they have made in this House and out side this House. We take it that after having given then a mandate to spend the money, they will be able to translate the same promises into action. I am happy that Members of the Assurances Committee have been able to record all the promises that have been made in this House.

Mr Speaker, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning maybe handicapped in trying to translate the same vision into action. This is a context in which I would like to propose a number of options that he may pursue in attempting to raise the much needed revenue.

Firstly, he should put emphasis on grants as opposed to loans. This option has the potential of stimulating the economy of this country, where as the later option is capable of subjecting Zambians to perpetual poverty, we will end up not getting our own people to international organisations such as the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank.

Secondly, he must intensify our campaign for debt cancellation. If we are going to stop influencing the international community to cancel the debt, I am afraid, all the commitment that we have made, may not be translated into action.

Thirdly, Mr Speaker, and the most important, in my view, is for the Government to transform all ministries into commercial concerns. All ministries without exception have the potential of generating revenue. The problems we have as at now, is that a number of our top managers are in the habit of using outdated administrative principles as opposed to business principles. The world has changed drastically, if we are going to use outdated administrative principles, I am afraid we are not going to generate a lot of revenue.

Mr Speaker, if you take into account the Ministry of Communication and Transport for example, we have a very profitable organisation that is, the Road Traffic Commission. We can generate a lot of revenue if only we introduce business concepts. Similarly, when we are talking about the Ministry of Lands, it is a question of knowing and understanding our business portfolios. The manager there should know how many clients are renewing the certificate of titles and how much money is being generated on daily, weekly and monthly basis. They should be able to know how much money could be captured with a month and how amount of money could be spent.

Sir, the Ministry of Home Affairs maybe considered to be one of the most profitable ministries, in my view. I was privileged to run that ministry in very profitably ….

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … one can even go and confirm.

They can make use of the police. The police is capable of generating a lot of revenue over night. The same applies to the immigration Department. In fact if we are talking about our London, Kasumba Lesa, Chirundu and many others, we can generate a lot of revenue within a week. However, what is lacking is accountability and also lack of introducing business concept. 

So, in other words, Mr Speaker, let us transform all our ministries into business concerns. I am happy that most of our ministers are running businesses. For example, the Vice-President has run successful businesses. Please, let us use the same concept and introduce them in our ministries to be able to generate a lot of revenue and we will spare the Minister of Finance and National Planning the trouble of travelling to America to look for loans and so on.

With regard to spending patterns, Mr Speaker, this is where we have a problem, especially on the part of some Cabinet Ministers, and I have used the word “some” deliberately. They are so expensive to maintain. Even where controlling officers advise them that, “minister, there is nothing that I can do, you cannot travel to your constituency with five drums of fuel and so on.” They will say, “you have to find the money.”

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr Kasongo: That is where we have a problem. 

Mr Muntanga: Mabenga!

Mr Kasongo: Controlling officers are good managers, they will give that professional advice to a cabinet minister to say, “minister, we cannot do this because funds are not available”, they will not agree with that kind of arrangement they say, “no you have to find the money”. So, in this case, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, whenever your colleagues will be coming to you to ask for money, you have to ask them one simple question, how much have they contributed to the treasury…

Mr Muntanga: Manjata!

Mr Kasongo: … before you release the money to their respective ministry. They should be able to give you something before you release the money to them. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: That must be your position. You take the same stand. For example, if the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry will come to you and say “I want to buy a vehicle can you release so much money”, find out how much money the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry had contributed to the ministry. I think that will be a good starting point.

Hon. Government Members: Interjected.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Kasongo: I am aware that hon. Ministers are obliged to visit their constituencies but there is no provision for them to be holding parties with their party cadres. They have to dig deeper into their pockets. 

Laughter.

Mr Muntanga: Mabenga!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Machungwa!

Mr Kasongo: There is that kind of arrangement. Wherever some ministers travel, they will have to go and throw parties in order to appease party cadres and so on. I had to pay myself. 

Interruptions.

Mr Kasongo: I used to say, “Minister that is your problem, it is a party function.” 

Interruptions.

Mr Kasongo: In short, Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to pursue this option and I am sure our economy is going to be stable.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order, order!

I have got two things to say, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kafue may lay on the Table the document, when I have sat down of course, from which he quoted and secondly, Members should not be tempted to reopen a cross country debate. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: That is long over. May we very briefly address the Bill that will enable the House to pass the Budget that we effect from midnight tonight so that the Minister of Finance and National Planning may begin to spend.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Mr L. L. Phiri: He is a new Member!

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, I rise to support the National Assembly Bill No. 6 of 2002 that is our Appropriation Bill. In supporting this Bill, I want to say that it has been hard work for all of us and I would want to congratulate all of us for this hard work in the interest of the nation.

Hon.Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shumina: In saying so, Mr Speaker, Sir, the Yellow Book that we have in front of us, is a Yellow Book for all Zambians. And it is my belief that we have been here since January and we are going home. Coming from our constituencies we came to sit down debate and argue in the interest of the nation. I also believe that as we go home and leave our Executive in Lusaka, we have every hope that when we come back whenever we are needed, we shall come and report progress from our constituencies.

It is therefore my submission that the Executive will work very hard to ensure that the national cake that brought us here since January up to tonight, is shared as equally as possible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shumina: The second point is the issue of debt cancellation. If we work very hard, I am of the view that our co-operating partners would also consider the cancellation of debt especially for the small scale farmer, because the hunger situation in the country has reached an alarming rate. And if, as we want to recover, we shall go back to the same people that we are giving relief food and demand that they should settle their loans, then we are destroying this country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: That is close to a model contribution on a Bill like this.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me a chance to contribute to this Bill. Being a new Member in Parliament, I want to ask a question …

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Check the amendment!

Mr Mukwakwa: … or clarification. Yes!

Mr Speaker, in terms of the Appropriation Bill, and I am saying I am new in this House, for those people who are knowledgeable please hear me out. Sir, in terms of the Appropriation Bill, the figure, which is given as a Grand Total is the figure, hopefully, adjusted, hopefully as amended in this House. The Grand Total in the Yellow Book is before the amendment made in this House. What therefore I am asking, Mr Speaker is, can an explanation be given why in the memorandum in the Appropriation Bill, the figure which is being quoted is exactly the same figure which is in the Yellow Book and not as amended?

Hon. Government Members waved the amendment.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! That is valid observation which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will address.

Mr Shemena (Solwezi West): Thank you, Mr Speaker, …

Laughter.

Mr Shemena: In supporting the Bill, I want to mention that it has been collective responsibility that this House needed all of us to contribute and then come to this stage. I can also recall situations in the past that after a bill has been passed, now people in offices think it is their cake alone. When we start complaining they do not listen. When the civil servants complain they do not listen to them. It is very important that when there is a complaint about the usage of money, the Government should be able to listen. When we complain as people that have been building this Budget, I think the Government should listen to us. We are going back to start complaining on the uses of the money, not only complaining, but we are going to say facts of what we think should be corrected and we expect the Government to listen to us. 

Please, let us not be used to bake the cake and later on not contribute to how best it can be shared and be used to feed the Zambian people.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate you …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Sibetta: … and your Deputy, the Chairman of Committees and civil servants who have backed this Government to produce this Appropriation Bill. Your Honour, I will congratulate you despite your shortcomings …

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … in the delivery of leadership to this House. 

Mr Speaker, I want also to further congratulate this Government for winning tonight’s election on the DAs.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Through you, Sir, I want to warn the Government that come the next Budget and if the DAs will still be around, they will not have it easy.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Between now and the next Budget, through you, Sir, inform the President of the Republic of Zambia that exercise on the DAs must be finished and they must go. If not, then we will intervene …

Dr Sondashi: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sibetta (pointing at Dr Sondashi): You are a witch, you.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi (pointing at Mr Sibetta): Sit down, you wizard.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. You have directed this House that hon. Members must address the Bill. Is the hon. Member for Luena, who is senior in this House …

Hon. Members: And a wizard!

Dr Sondashi: … in order to debate District Governors, the question which has already been dealt with and that has been already discussed, instead of addressing the Bill. The Chairman of Committees also ruled on this question of District Governors regarding the authority …

Hon. Members: District Administrators!

Dr Sondashi: Sorry, District Administrators. I beg your pardon, Mr Speaker.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi: Is he in order to open up that debate?

Mr Speaker: The point of order which has just been raised by the hon. Minister of Works and Supply is a timely reminder to the hon. Member for Luena to move on and leave this issue of District Governors as it was initially put …

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: … but it is the District Administrators as the hon. Member for Luena put it. May you move on to the next point very briefly because we have to make progress. After he has made his intervention, I would like one or two from the Opposition side then I am aware the hon. Deputy Minister for Finance and National Planning would like to assist.

May you continue please.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, notwithstanding the point of order from the great witch,

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … Hon. Sondashi, the Minister Without Portfolio, …

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … and Nominated Member of Parliament ...

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … Mr Speaker, come the next Budget, I want to address my elder brother, the Minister of Finance and National Planning, whom at one time, we were so worried about his health that he would never reach the end of this Budget Session.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: We were worried here that you might collapse and die before we come to the end of this Appropriation Bill.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Thank God, you have got it but if the DAs are not going between now and the next Budget …

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: … If the District Administrators are not going between now and the next Budget …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair is satisfied that the hon. Member for Luena has nothing more to say except about District Administrators and that subject is really gone. Do you have anything else to say apart from the DAs? I will give you the benefit of doubt.

Mr Sibetta: I thank you Sir. Finally, for the first time in the history of our country, we have a true multi-party democracy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: The Budget and the laws enacted by this House will not be a one-sided affair by the benches on your right, Sir. We have to say, amend and if possible to defeat the Government on such an enactment and we would like to deliver a message to this Government that in future, through the Leader of the House and you hon. Ministers, you must learn to consult with us on this side.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: Throughout these Estimates, we have learnt that the Government is playing their game close to their chests. They do not want us to know what is happening and to consult us. In future, if you do not do that, there will be no Budget and in the end you will pass our budget this side and not your Budget.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: And it is very important through you, Mr Speaker and the Chairman of your Committees, you gentlemen on this side (Government) … and ladies. I recognise you Judith.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: You have to learn to consult with us this side, and you Marina.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Luena will address the hon. Ministers as such. May you withdraw the name Judith and the other name and address them as hon. Ministers of Government. May you do so now.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, I withdraw my intimations to you ladies.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: In future the Government must learn to consult with the Opposition. This also goes for the civil servants. The civil servants, through the Government, must arrange appropriate seminars at which Members of this side of the House (Opposition) are intimated as to what is coming. This is to enable us say to you yes, we will agree or no, we will not agree. This is because as we move into by-elections, which we are competent to win on this side - many of you are facing by-elections. 

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: I would like the Civil Service and the Government to trust us on the Opposition side and consult us. If you do not, Mr Speaker and the Chairman of Committees might not be able to protect you. I think your President is trying to be genuine but you are letting him down. If you do not take us into your confidence, the next Budget if we shoot it down, we will go straight into general elections.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Sibetta: I am telling you.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to contribute.

Mr Speaker, I want to place on record my appreciation of the way the Chairman has handled the deliberations. I did realise, as we went along, that it is a very difficult job to superintend over a balanced Parliament.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: My colleague here will agree with me that he has had a very difficult time. I am sure you were able to listen to the deliberations as they went along. It was not an easy matter and I want to place it on record.

Mr Speaker, my concern about the approval of this Bill and indeed, the Budget is that, even if we have approved this Budget now, the difficult part still remains. The implementation of the Budget.

Mr Speaker, you have been aware over the years, in your experience, that because of pressures, some that would have been avoided and others that might have been difficult to avoid and indeed, we also have this year’s impending problem that might arise out of the Anglo-American Corporation pull out, I fear that the allocations to this Budget may be less than the 100 per cent that we expect.

I am worried, Sir, except that I can only urge the Government to do their very best to ensure that we stick to the Budget that we have approved. The allocations this time must be as positive and up to the mark as best as we have approved the Budget.

Mr Speaker, I also want to commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning because I have noticed in the Press and on radio that he has started a new good system where the allocations are made public. I think that is a very positive move. We will be in a position, Mr Speaker, to monitor as he releases the funds to the various Government departments to be able to know and follow which ministries are not performing and spending the money as to the allocations. It will assist hon. Members of Parliament to be able to trot between departments and ministries, and indeed, between their constituencies. It is a welcome development. I hope and trust that we will all adhere to this.

I want to further appeal, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that we should not leave the allocation of funds to junior officers in the various ministries. We should not leave the allocation of funds from the Budget Office to junior officers because this is where the problems begin to arise. 

I have great trust that His Excellency, the President of this country will live up his promises and of what we are expecting him to do and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and indeed, everybody in Government. They should ensure that these allocations are within what we have budgetted for. I expect that come the end of this year when we get the second Yellow Book next year, we should be able to reach at least with funds that will be able to compute compared to the K5.6 trillion that we have voted for. If anything goes wrong, we will be able to point out that there has been misallocation of funds.

Mr Speaker, I rest my case.

Thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): In supporting the Bill on the Floor, I wish to state that the Budget as widely been accepted by the people of Zambia, we had engaged all the stakeholders, including the Opposition parties who have contributed to the Budget.

Mr Speaker, we had a good fight and that is what democracy is all about. We would like to appreciate the contributions of our fellow hon. Members of Parliament in the House, and our country is one. The holistic approach to the development of our country is the key to the success of what we are putting in place.

Mr Speaker, we have the capacity to develop and deliver the Budget. I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for having stood the taste of time.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr E. G. Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank both sides of the House for the encouraging remarks they have made on the Budget that I presented on 1st March, 2002.

I share the concern of the hon. Member for Kafue (Mr Sichinga) about the cost of running Government. I certainly would take interest in reducing the costs of cell phones, use of motor vehicles and so on. I think that I will take it as a personal responsibility in ensuring that delegation and travel is limited to the essential that we really want to have. So, I share the concerns that the hon. Member for Kafue has expressed.

I also feel that the points made by the hon. Member for Bangweulu are important. We are a poor nation and if we can maximise on grants and minimise on loans, that should be the policy. But there are some loans which are really loans only in name. For example, IDA of the World Bank family gives funding which is at 1 per cent interest and has got ten to fifteen years moratorium and payable over fifty years so that if you discount it in today’s value, it is almost a grant.

With regard to the debt cancellation, I think that this HIPC discussion we have been having are actually meant to cancel the debt sot that when we reach the completion point in the middle or towards the end of next year, 50 per cent of Zambia’s debt will be cancelled. I think I did explain that discussions are going on now to improve on that performance.

The other hon. Member talked about the national cake and ability to share it. I think we Zambians must look to what we can do for Zambia rather than what Zambia can do for us. I think it is important that we count ourselves as tax payers first before we can look to sharing the national cake. I know that this is tall holder, but I think this is the way we should orient our thinking.

There is a little bit of a difference between the Yellow Book and the Bill, and this reflects the changes that the hon. Members of Parliament have voted in. The two figures are not exactly the same. That is the explanation of the difference.

With regard to the listening Government, I think this is a listening Government. We shall always and at all times welcome

contributions from members of the Republic, Members of Parliament and other people holding important representational posts in our society. I think it is important and I know that the hon. Member for Luena was thinking I might collapse. Actually, I am all right. I will survive. I do not think I need to worry about my health. My blood pressure is a little  bit better than that of the hon. Member for Luena, Mr Sibetta.

Laughter.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Kasonde: On consultancy, consulting Members is, I think a very important point. I would welcome consultancy. I welcome consulting Members of Parliament, both during the sitting of Parliament and even after Parliament has risen. I would like very much to talk to them. 

I would say a few remarks on the ministerial statements that I had promised I would give now that I have the opportunity to be here and to say farewell to most of you. I could not make a statement on Kwachamania because that case is in court. I could not make a statement on cobalt sales because the report from the auditors is not complete. But, fortunately, the reason why the delay was that the auditors demanded an extra US$150,000 to complete the report. But four governments have come to my aid, the British, the Norwegian, the Dutch and the Swedish governments. These four governments have agreed to pay for the report. So, hopefully, the report could be released soon by the auditors and then we shall definitely give it to you.

I could not make a statement on the Meridian saga. Again because the files have been passed on to the police, and while the police are looking at those things, I cannot start making statements here. And I can assure you, hon. Members, that there was no intention on my part to hide any figures from you whether it is on District Administrators or anyone else. The intention was this that I was aware at the time that we were going to the printers that we would make changes that the office of the District Administrators would not be there. We would make changes. 

Now, if we make changes to something I do not know, how do I show that in the budget? So, the idea was to put the money at the provincial level and when we decide, then we can take that money by an appropriate warrant and give it to the proper office. So, it was just a normal financial operation and I would never hide anything from hon. Members of Parliament.

The hon. Member for Mbabala mentioned something about KCM. Again, I think whilst Parliament is sitting, I should report that we are making headway. We are making good reports. At the moment, I cannot frighten you, I cannot promise you something specific but the discussions are going on well. 

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Committee today.

HOUSE IN COMMTTEE

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2002

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SCHEDULE –  (Section 2)

Mr Kasonde: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment under the Schedule:

(i)    On page 9, under Head 90/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 936,493,696 and the substitution therefor of 1,767,052,596

(ii)    On page 10, under Head 91/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,353,900,376 and the substitution therefor of 2,554,649,524.

(iii)    On page 10, under Head 92/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,134,545,484 and the substitution therefor of 2,140,943,418.

(iv)    On page 11, under Head 93/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,756,010,971 and the substitution therefor of 3,3113,384,551.

(v)    On page 11, under Head 94/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,302,502,025 and the substitution therefor of 2,457,666,929.

(vi)    On page 12, under Head 94/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,192,013,932 and the substitution therefor of 2,249,188,993.

(vii)    On page 12, under Head 96/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,171,423,809 and the substitution therefor of 2,210,337,494.

(viii)    On page 12, under Head 97/01- Headquarters, in column by the deletion of 824,180,765 and the substitution therefor of 1,555,131,408.

(ix)    On page 13, under Head 98/01- Headquarters, in column 3 by the deletion of 1,090,368,632 and the substitution therefor of 2,057,396,361.

(x)    On page 14, under Head 99/01-Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure, in column 3 by the deletion of 926,325,521,218 and the substitution therefore of 916,781,028,435.

Mr Chairman, the debate that preceded this has cleared all the points that we were worried about and I must thank the whole House for allowing those.

Mr Chairman, I beg to move.

Question put agreed to.

Amendment agreed to. Schedule amended accordingly.

Schedule, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

HOUSE RESUMED

[Mr SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:

The Appropriation Bill, 2002

Report Stage today.

REPORT STAGE

The Appropriation Bill, 2002

Report adopted.

Third Reading today.

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Appropriation Bill, 2002

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn sine die.

Question put agreed to.

The House adjourned accordingly at 2250 hours sine die.