DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY 

Wednesday, 24th July, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

QUESTIONS

SENIOR OFFICERS’ CONTRACTS

31. Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services:

(a)    how many senior officers in the following             institutions were serving on contract:

(i)    Zambia National Broadcasting             Corporation;
(ii)    Zambia Information Services;             and
(iii)    Zambia News Agency;

(b)    what their entitlements upon expiry of their             contracts were;

(c)    how many of the officers in (a) above             renewed their contracts as at 31st                 December, 2001, and for how long; and

(d)    how much each officer in (c) would be paid             upon expiry of their contracts.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Chipili): Mr Speaker, out of the three institutions, only Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) employs all its senior management staff on contractual terms. Examples are the Chief Executive and Heads of Department. This is so in order to attract high calibre personnel to enable it compete favourably with other broadcasting houses in the country and, indeed, in the region.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to inform this House that the said contracts have a three-year duration and are renewable. Remuneration is calculated at 25 per cent of the gross earnings for a period of three years.

Mr Speaker, unlike the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation, there are no contract employees at the Zambia National Information Services (ZIS) and Zambia News Agency (ZANA) because those are Government departments whose employees are civil servants and are employed on permanent, pensionable and establishment terms.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, does the hon. Deputy Minister not know that the people on contract frustrate ‘ordinary’ officers? The latter can serve in those positions instead of relying on people serving on contract.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, as earlier mentioned in the reply, this is being done in order to attract high calibre personnel to man the various departments. Therefore, the question of their being mediocre is irrelevant.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, we have just been told by the hon. Deputy Minister that top management staff at ZNBC enjoy attractive conditions of service. This is intended to retain qualified staff. Could he tell us what he has done to improve the conditions of service for the other qualified staff at ZNBC in order to motivate them because their conditions of service, right now, are pathetic. 

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member would care to wait, there is a question to that effect later in the day.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. R. Banda (Kapoche): Mr Speaker, we are given to understand that people are serving on contract (in management ) in order to attract high calibre staff. Is he aware that we have people, who are ill-qualified, running departments at ZNBC? For instance, I will tell you that the Department of Engineering is supposed to be run by a university graduate but it is not. For Programmes Director, you do not just need a programmes producer but someone who has the qualifications to run the department. Is he aware of that?

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that those departments are run by unqualified personnel. To the best of my knowledge and that of my ministry, the personnel there are qualified.

I thank you, Sir.

SALARY INCREMENTS

32. Mr L. L. Phiri asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services when the last salary increment at the following institutions was effected and what the percentage of the increment was:

(i)    Zambia National Broadcasting                 Corporation;

[Mr L. L. Phiri]

(ii)    Zambia Information Services; 
(iii)    Zambia Daily Mail Limited;
(iv)    Times of Zambia Limited; and
(v)    Zambia News Agency.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the last salary increments at the following institutions were as follows:

Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation

The Corporation awarded its employees a salary increment in August, 1998, by way of salary harmonisation. Unionised staff were awarded a salary increment of K25,000 per month across the board. The non-unionised workers were awarded a salary increment of K40,000 per month across the board. It has not been possible to effect salary increments at ZNBC since 1998 due to dwindling Treasury resources. In addition, the Corporation is not generating enough funds from its marketing activities and has to negotiate for a bank overdraft of K285 million to pay salaries. However, I wish to inform the House that my ministry has already initiated moves with the Treasury to review ZNBC salaries and conditions of service upwards.
 
Zambia Information Services

 Mr Speaker, ZIS is a Government department. Its employees benefit from the general salary and wage reviews which are carried out by the Government from time to time. Mr Speaker, the last such exercise was in July 2001 when the Government awarded its employees salary and wage increments of 80 per cent and above, according to their scales.

Zambia Daily Mail

Mr Speaker, the company last awarded its employees a 15 per cent salary increment across the board in the year 2001. It has just concluded another collective agreement with the union. Increments of between 15 per cent and 18 per cent and other improved conditions of service are just about to be effected backdated to April 2002.

Times of Zambia

Mr Speaker, similarly, the Times of Zambia Limited last awarded its employees a salary increment of 10 per cent across the board with effect from 1st April, 2001. I also wish to inform the House that negotiations are currently in place between the unionised workers and management for an upward review of salaries and conditions of service at Times Printpak.

Zambia News Agency

Like at (ii) above, Sir, ZANA is a Government department whose employees benefit whenever the Government carries out salary and wage reviews for the Public Service employees the last of which was in July 2001. The increment ranged 
from 80 per cent and above.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, we have heard that the last salary increment for the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation was in 1998. I would like the hon. Minister to clarify if the Government is, now, not convinced that ZNBC can only pay its workers and revamp all its operations if it is privatised.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, that is a fairly new question, but the hon. Member should wait for the reply to Question Number 50 which deals with the matter he has just raised.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister informed us that the reason for the low salaries was partly poor funding. Is he aware that one of the major reasons for the failure by ZNBC to pay good salaries to its workers is the Government’s failure to pay for its adverts that are run on ZNBC?

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, I am, indeed, aware that the Government owes ZNBC some money but, from time to time, through my ministry, we do make some payments.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Liato (Kaoma): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that despite the poor salaries at ZNBC and the other Government media organisations, the Government is using most of them in its errands in the rural areas and that it is unfair to use them when they are poorly paid? In addition, does the hon. Minister know that the environment in which they work is very poor? They have poor furniture. If you go to ZNBC or to any other media institution today, you will find that even their chairs are torn. Is the Government going to let these institutions go on like this or are they going to do something immediately?

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, the Government is taking remedial action. I have been to the countryside to see what the situation is like there and appropriate recommendations have been made. It is my hope that the Government will act upon them.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapita (Mwinilunga West): Mr Speaker, we all know the conduct of public media institutions such as ZNBC. Could the hon. Minister, please, confirm whether when these institutions run their opinion columns or cover news, they, actually, ask for his office’s indulgence, including when they 
critique or express their opinions on television.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, at no time has my ministry or 

any official of the ministry or myself had influence in the way the opinions are written in our public print media. We do not interfere with the running of those newspapers. It is just psychological, perhaps.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell the House how they use the funds they realise out of the contract between Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation and Multi-Choice for relaying DSTV programmes to this country and CASAT for relaying CASAT programmes. The money is paid monthly. He should explain because employees at ZNBC are not paid, sometimes, for two months and yet revenue is coming in. I would like to know who is chewing the money.

Mr Speaker: Order! The word ‘chewing’ is unparliamentary.

Mr Sibetta: I want the hon. Minister to throw light on the expenditure of revenue from CASAT and Multi-Choice.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, the question is irrelevant to the original question. It requires a detailed answer. May I ask the hon. Member to lodge in a fresh question in that regard for the Government to give a comprehensive answer.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to protect the Government on a very serious issue which concerns public funds? How can his ministry fail to know where CASAT money is going when it is the one responsible for media organisations?

Mr Speaker: That question is in the form of a point of order. I do not know on whom. The Chair was seated and the hon. Minister was also seated over there. We have a procedural difficulty here.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services has just told us that the last salary increases at ZNBC were effected in 1998. I do not think he has brought correct information to the House. I would ask him to bring correct information. The last salary increase at ZNBC was in 1994 and I would like to hear from the hon. Minister when he is going to effect the new salaries for the rest of the workers at ZNBC because he has told us that he is working on something. It is too much. Civil servants and others have benefited but ZNBC workers have been left in the cold.

Mr Speaker: If that information is correct, then the implication is that the hon. Minister of Information and 
Broadcasting Services has misled this House. 

May the hon. Minister, please, clarify the matter. When were  ZNBC staff last granted salary increments?

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, I insist that the information I have given to this House is correct. The last increment was in 1998 and we have documents to prove that.

As regards his other question about the time frame, I cannot promise that because I am not the Minister of Finance and National Planning where the matter has been taken. I can only say that, in due course, the Government will effect those increments.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Show leadership, mulamu.

GOVERNMENT VEHICLES

33. Mr Nang’omba (Mazabuka) asked the Vice-President:

(a)    how many motor vehicles were purchased             for the Organisation of African Unity             Conference held in Lusaka in 2001; and 

(b)    which Government ministries and                 institutions were allocated these vehicles             after the conference and what criteria were             used.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Mukuka): Mr Speaker, the Government purchased sixty S320 Mercedes Benz Saloon cars and forty Hyundai Santa Fe for the Organisation of African Unity Summit.

(a)    The vehicles were allocated as follows:

(i)    Mercedes Benz Saloon cars:

      1 - First President
      1 - Second President
      1 - Vice-President
      1 - Speaker
      1 - Chief Justice
      1 - Deputy Chief Justice
      10 - Ministry of Foreign Affairs                     for distribution to 10                         missions in the SADC                     region
      20 - Available at Cabinet Office                      awaiting disposal
      24 - Cabinet Office for State                       functions

(ii)    Hyundai Santa Fe

[Mr Mukuka]

3 - Office of the Vice-President
1 - Human Rights Commission
2 - Ministry of Foreign Affairs
1 - Public Service Management Division
1 - Police and Prisons Service Commission
1 - Public Service commission
1 - Teaching Service Commission
9 - one to each of the 9 provinces
21 - Cabinet Office for use on State                     functions. 

However, currently, fifteen are on temporal loan to various institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nang’omba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister which institutions these are.

Interruptions.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, may the hon. Member of Parliament repeat the question.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! We do not repeat questions here. But, if I got the question properly, it relates to one of the very last items where a number of vehicles were on loan to various institutions. That is the issue. Which institutions are you referring to? Can you give a breakdown.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, these are Government institutions that we will make known to Members of Parliament.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Chair is satisfied with that answer.

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Speaker, whilst they have shared these vehicles in Lusaka, are they aware that sensitive departments, for instance, the Immigration Department and Passport and Citizenship Offices in the provinces do not have transport? They have to carry sensitive documents like passports using public transport.

Can the hon. Minister consider these offices and give them the remaining fifteen vehicles.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament has raised a point that the Government will have to consider.

Laughter.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the Government will look into 
it. The New Deal Government would like to make sure that all the Government institutions tick. 

I beg to submit, Mr Speaker.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Mr Speaker, the Chair is satisfied with the answer given by His Honour the Vice-President. However, is His Honour unable to inform this House adequately, having gone through a catalogue of ministries and departments that are in receipt of those vehicles?

Could he, please, furnish this House with further clarification on the other departments that have received vehicles. We are disturbed that the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services, that was supposed to play a big part in the hosting of the OAU Summit, received no vehicles, hence, the young men and women in the Press are still walking.

Further, Mr Speaker, he said ‘various institutions’. Is His Honour the Vice-President aware that the Inspector of Factories at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security uses public transport to go and inspect boilers in the mines?

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the Government answered according to the way the question was put to it.

Laughter.

Mr Mukuka: All I am saying is that the hon. Member requested to find out which motor vehicles were purchased and who benefited from that arrangement, a question which the Government has adequately addressed this afternoon.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President said that there were twenty vehicles awaiting allocation. May we know when those vehicles are going to be allocated, especially that there are several ministries that do not have vehicles. Sir, the questioner further sought the criteria used in allocating the vehicles.

Hon. Opposition Members: He has not heard the question.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, I wanted to get the hon. Member of Parliament very clearly because …

Interruptions.

Mr Mukuka: Yes, I wanted to get the question correctly.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, the first 

President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Kaunda, was given 
one Mercedes Benz, so was the Second President, Dr Chiluba. That is all with regard to the Mercedes Benz cars.

Now, the Government per se faces a critical shortage of motor vehicles in almost all departments such as the police, the ministries and Inspector of Factories. The Government is in the process of acquiring some vehicles for the departments that do not have them. In fact, some of the hon. Ministers here do not have vehicles. 

However, when it comes to the Santa Fe, fifteen vehicles are on loan to various ministries and ministries just mean that - ‘ministries’. It is hoped that when those ministries are bought vehicles by the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, these vehicles shall be returned to Cabinet Office for further deployment elsewhere where they are needed.

I thank you, Sir,

34. Mr Nang’omba asked the Vice-President:

(a)    how many projects in the Southern                 Province benefitted from the Presidential             Fund from 1999 to 2001, district by                 district; and

(b)    how many of these projects were in                 Mazabuka Parliamentary Constituency.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, eighteen projects benefitted from the Presidential Fund in Southern Province from 1999 to 2001. These are broken down, district by district as follows:

Two of these projects were in Mazabuka Central Constituency under the Zambia Institute of Animal Health, 
that is, production of vaccine for corridor disease and formation of farmers associations to access funds.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, the total sum given, in relation to the total amount this House approved to disburse to Southern Province, adds up to about less than one tenth of the total amount. Would His Honour the Vice-President be precise and tell us the amounts given in specific areas.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament has brought up a very new question that is different from 
what was originally submitted to the Government.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Well, the Chair notices that the hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba was cut short when the Vice-President stood up ahead of time. Did you finish your question?

Laughter.

Mr Matongo: I am much obliged, Mr Speaker. I would like His Honour the Vice-President to be precise. I can assist him by saying Sikalongo Mission got K30 million. If only he could agree with me that what was disbursed to Southern Province was negligible compared to the total amount approved in this House. That is all I want him to confirm.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, a total of eighteen projects in the Southern Province were financed by the Presidential Fund. This fund was based on needs basis. For example, if Sikalongo needed K30 million, they got that amount because they submitted their needs.

Southern Province was one of the highest beneficiaries of the Presidential Fund in the whole country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: This, Mr Speaker, gives me the opportunity, also, to state that there has been talk that those who got money from the Presidential Fund should refund the Government, in other words mixing this particular fund with some other fund which is being disputed. This very House approved this particular fund for the President to use as he deemed fit, Sir. In this particular case many applications were received. The allocation from this fund was based on an application being made to the Office of the President and Cabinet Office has all the information hon. Members may need. Indeed, the question did not ask for particular amounts. If they did, that information is computerised and, therefore, readily available to any Member who may need it.

[The Vice-President]

Regrettably, in the New Deal Administration, we do not have that fund. So, those seeking funds need to go through the ministries and wait until the ministry itself allocates you the money, even though you applied for it.

In short, when this fund was in existence, it availed what you may call a ‘short cut’ to availability of funds as opposed to going through the budgetary system. Mr Speaker, we all found out later that this fund was not equitably distributed. For instance, in my constituency in Chingola, various schools applied for this fund but only two were funded. So, this, in itself, caused problems because many requests came but for whatever criteria, which were used, they were not considered. Southern Province benefited with the highest number of projects.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, is His Honour the Vice-President aware that the Presidential Fund was used more as a bribe, thereby being an abuse of office, rather than for genuine development?

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that giving money to Sikalongo Basic School would be a bribe to them. I am sure that not many of us in the Government here have our children at Katapazi and neither do we attend Katapazi Rural Health Centre in Kazungula.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Long live the VP!

Mrs R. C. Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, if this slush fund was not for bribing, I wish to find out from the Vice-President what happens to those areas which did not benefit, especially the Eastern Province. Can he instruct the Minister of Education to give some money to those areas which did not benefit from the slush fund.

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair allowed the hon. Member for Milanzi to use the phrase ‘slush fund’ only because she is new. This issue was raised in this House during the period of your predecessors and the House was then guided that a fund that was approved by this House could not be called a ‘slush
 fund’ unless this House was itself party to the criticism that you were levelling against it.

Further, you have just heard His Honour the Vice-President, 

Leader of Government Business in the House, say that, in his opinion, that fund was not applied equitably. That notwithstanding, let us refrain from using phrases like ‘slush fund’. In any case, the fund is no longer available.

Mr Speaker: Will His Honour the Vice-President continue, please.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Members who desire to have schools or clinics rehabilitated in their constituencies may apply to either ZAMSIF or the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and funds will be made available to them.

Mr Speaker, if I may just emphasise that from 1999 to 2001, the MMD was the party in Government. Sadly, although all these moneys were spent in the Southern Province, when it came to voting, the people voted otherwise.

Laughter.

Mr Hachipuka: It is their right.

The Vice-President: Yes, it is their right, and, therefore, we did not bribe them. This fund, if I may insist, was not used for bribery because if it were used for bribing people, then they would have voted accordingly.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nakalonga (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, the money being discussed, now, is very contentious. His Honour the Vice President has said that Southern Province benefitted the most out of this money. It would, therefore, be proper ...

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. Can you ask your question.

Mr Nakalonga: Mr Speaker, I would like the Vice President to give us a breakdown of the money spent, province by province. Only then can the nation know that the Southern Province benefitted the most out of this money.

Mr Speaker: Your Honour, do you have proof of your statements?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, all the Members need to do is lodge in a question and we shall give them the right answers. But the hon. Member for Chikankata may wish to know that the Eastern Province got nine projects while North- Western Province got only seven projects out of this fund.

Hon. Members: How much!

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: It was all for the same purpose, school improvement. The Southern Province, in addition to these funds here, got an extra K2 billion for animal health.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, we can go on and on dealing with that question. The understanding of the Chair is that the detailed facts you may wish to hear in this House today may not be available at the moment. The advice of the Chair is that any Member who wishes to have more details should either go to the office of His Honour the Vice President and have access to that information or ask questions which will bring out the sort of answers you need.

At the moment, I doubt that His Honour the Vice-President has the kind of answers you need.

Mr Hachipuka: He ought to.

Mr Speaker: I know he ought to, but he does not have them now. I can see that some Members still want to try.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, having heard what you have said and your wise ruling, I would like to find out, since this issue has been brought to Parliament, whether it will be possible for the Vice-President to bring those figures to Parliament for public consumption. I have said so because there are certain schools whose geography has been changed. For instance, Malundi is in Namwala when it is actually in my constituency. Bweengwa School was given money but it has become even more dilapidated. We would like to get proper information on the way this money was utilised. Is it possible then for us to get proper information in this House and not in privacy since this matter has been disclosed in Parliament?

Mr Speaker: Order! There is another way of doing it. His Honour the Vice-President could, within the next few days, through a brief ministerial statement, spell out all these things on this matter. This way, the concerns of the Members might be answered.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Indeed, indeed!

Mr Speaker: He will do so as soon as he is ready. The information, we are told, is computerised.

UNION BANK/KAOMA BRANCH

35. Mr Shumina asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    why Union Bank, Kaoma Branch, was             closed; and

(b)    when customers will be paid their money.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): Mr Speaker, the financial position of Union Bank Zambia Limited, during the period 1999 to 2001, was unsatisfactory. The bank experienced capital inadequacy, severe liquidity problems, poor asset quality, persistent loss-making, persistent breach of the provisions of the regulations of the Banking and Financial Services Act and management’s inability to recover loans from board members and shareholders.

Mr Speaker, in an effort to halt the deterioration of the financial condition of the bank and to avoid persistent breaches of the law, the Bank of Zambia seized the bank in accordance with Section 84 of the Banking and Financial Services Act, as amended, with the view to facilitating the restructuring and/or sale of the bank.

Mr Speaker, following the seizure of the Union Bank Zambia Limited by the Bank of Zambia on 13th February, 2001, the Bank of Zambia Board of Directors on 29th March, 2001, resolved and ordered that Union Bank be wound up by way of compulsory liquidation in accordance with the provisions of the Banking and Financial Services Act.

A bank is made up of Head Office and other branches and if its Head Office is closed, it is the entire bank that is closed, which includes its branches. Hence, the closure of Union Bank, Kaoma Branch.

Mr Speaker, with regard to section (b) of the question, it will be mentioned that most depositors from all the thirteen branches of Union Bank were paid K500,000 per account last year. This payment, which is the first dividend, was declared in April 2001. The bank is currently paying all the Kaoma Branch depositors, in full, except for fifteen account holders who had balances in excess of K10 million. The outstanding balance for the fifteen depositors will be settled once sufficient money has been realised.

Additionally, I am delighted to inform this House that since the closure of the Union Bank in Kaoma, in its place, Finance Bank Zambia Limited opened its 25th Branch in the district on the 3rd of April, 2002, to cater for the people of Kaoma. 

I will tell the companies, associations and the accounting firms that are appointed as liquidators to try and finish the liquidation process in a short time. Otherwise, I will withdraw the liquidation mandate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapita: In other countries, obviously, when people continuously break the law, they are prosecuted. I am just wondering why, when we have lost about six or seven banks in this country, we still see a lot of directors on the roads going to open other banks in different names. Can the hon. Minister confirm how many such directors have been prosecuted in this country.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I think that is a new question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that one or two directors who plundered Meridien Bank were rewarded by being given licences to open up more and more financial institutions?

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, that is sub judice.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwanza (Mkaika): Mr Speaker, there was money in Union Bank for community projects in the Western Province. What is the Government doing to recover that money?

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, all beneficiaries will be addressed when we sell the assets of the company.

I thank you, Sir.

CHIEFS’ PALACES

36. Mr Shumina asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how much money was allocated to the following chiefs’ palaces for rehabilitation between January, 2001 and December, 2001:

(i)    Limulunga in Mongu;
(ii)    Lealui in Mongu;
(iii)    Lukena in Kaoma;
(iv)    Mabombola in Kaoma;
(v)    Mwandi in Sesheke;
(vi)    Naliele in Kaoma;
(vii)    Moyo in Senanga;
(vii)    Nalolo in Senanga; and
(viii)    Libonda in Kalabo.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chitala): Mr Speaker, in answer to the question raised by the hon. Member, I wish to inform this august House that a total of K51 million was allocated to the following chiefs’ palaces for their rehabilitation between January, 2001 and December, 2001:

Palace                Amount in kwacha
Limulunga in Mongu     7.5 million
Lealui in Mongu    7.5 million
Lukena in Kaoma    5 million
Mabombola in Kaoma    5 million
Mwandi in Sesheke    8 million
Naliele in Kaoma    5 million
Moyo in Senanga    4 million
Nalolo in Senanga    4 million
Libonda in Kalabo    5 million
Total     51 million

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale: Sir, I just want the hon. Minister to clarify whether those figures he has given are adequate to rehabilitate chiefs’ palaces.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, this was the money that was allocated and handed over to the respective chiefs’ palaces.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wamulume (Liuwa): Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that the K5 million that he has mentioned for Libonda Royal Establishment never reached the place? If he is, where is the money so that it can go there now?

Laughter.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of that.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena (Solwezi West): Sir, since the amount of money that was meant for rehabilitation was not enough to do the actual work planned for and then it was disbursed in the run up to the elections, does the hon. Minister know that this is suspect?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, this is the normal work of the Government. We normally send money to rehabilitate chiefs’ palaces and our sending money to the palaces was in the normal course of our duties.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some chiefs do not even have palaces? If he is, what measures is he taking to ensure that chiefs have accommodation commensurate with what you would call a palace? If he is not aware, what measures is he taking to become aware of that?

Laughter.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I think it is the common view of all Zambians that our chiefs should have palaces to live in. We know that they all have palaces. Some of them are dilapidated and others have not been worked on for a long time. It is the intention of this Government that we do everything in our means to ensure that we take care of the palaces.

I thank you, Sir.

NGWEZI RESETTLEMENT SCHEME CROP PRODUCTION

37. Mr Haakaloba (Magoye) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what measures have been put in place to increase crop production at Ngwezi Resettlement Scheme in the Magoye Parliamentary Constituency as at 31st March, 2002.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Sikatana): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, in conjunction with the locally based Non-Governmental Organisations, has conducted courses for farmers in the Magoye area in conservation farming, entrepreneurship development and vegetable production. 

Further, the ministry is promoting agro-forestry, that is, tree planting in the area. A village in Ngwezi is under the village co-programme run by the ministry with assistance from IFAD. The village has been given K10 million as a revolving fund. The village has since procured donkeys, carts, ploughs and attachments to help in timely land preparation for increased crop production.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that just next door, Kaleya Small Holdings is irrigating because the Kafue River is quite close to the settlement scheme? Is he aware that the resettlement scheme in Magoye can benefit from tapping water from the Kafue River? Also, are they considering the resettlement scheme for an irrigation scheme?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, we are aware of the benefits that Kaleya Scheme is deriving from the irrigation scheme and are taking measures with the assistance of the Cotton Trust to go through logistics to help Magoye. I have personally been to the place and, in fact, a dam has been sited for that purpose.

I thank you, Sir.

CO-OPERATIVE BANK

38. Mr Haakaloba asked the Minister of Agriculture and 
Co-operatives when the Co-operative Bank will begin operating.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives has been consulting with the relevant stakeholders on the issue of whether to re-open the Co-operative Bank or go in for a Farmer’s Bank that would incorporate both co-operatives and other farmers. The ministry has engaged a consultant to assess the possibility of re-opening the Co-operative Bank and provide advice accordingly. The consultant’s report, among others, indicates 

that it would be more economical to look into the possibility of opening a new bank than re-opening the Co-operative Bank.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that there are families that have been waiting for the Co-operative Bank to re-open so that they can get their normal salaries? Would he indicate when the new bank, which is envisaged instead of the Co-operative Bank, will open.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the subject of opening a new bank is on the agenda of the Farmer’s Congress which sits tomorrow after the sitting of the Co-operative Convention and the results from there will be announced accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): Sir, does the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives know that while the ministry is considering whether to re-open the Co-operative Bank or not, the Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA) is busy selling Co-operative Bank buildings like the one in Chipata?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that the ZPA is selling any asset of the Co-operative Bank because they have no authority to do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing over the Chipata Co-operative Bank building which has been sold to Allan and Sons Company, a company owned by the Asian Community in Chipata?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the information the ministry has is that the buildings are being sold by the liquidator and we have no authority to stop them.

I thank you, Sir.

OAU VILLAGE

39. Miss Nawakwi asked the Vice-President how much money, in form of compensation, was paid to Lusaka Boys Primary School for the acquisition of the land on which the OAU Village is situated.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Government did not pay Lusaka Boys Primary School any compensation for the acquisition of the land on which the OAU Village is situated.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, in view of the response from His Honour the Vice-President, and in view of the fact that His Honour the Vice-President had come to this House at some point to ask for supplementary expenditure for the construction of an OAU Village which was later sold to some private company, and since this piece of land, now, has buildings owned by a private company from another country and is commercial, could the Government consider that both Lusaka Girls and Boys get some shares in this new entity?

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the Member of Parliament is suggesting a very good idea but then the Government has already given an answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that public funds were used to construct that property using school property and it was sold to a Libyan Investment Company. Could His Honour the Vice-President not come to the House and make a substantive statement as to the exact status, financing and the disposal of that asset. This is the public outcry.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, we have no problem in doing that as a Government.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Speaker, in the light of the seriousness of this matter and the kind of light-hearted manner in which His Honour the Vice-President’s office is responding to these questions, I would like to know whether any compensation has been paid to the schools involved from the moneys that were paid by the Libyan Investment Company. We need a definite answer, Sir, can His Honour the Vice-President, please, respond in a serious manner deserving the case.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Members of Parliament for Lusaka Central, Munali and Kafue are aware 
that this matter is sub judice and, therefore, we feel not competent to discuss it now. However, if they so wish, we could come up with a ministerial statement on the matter.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: His Honour the Vice-President has offered to come back to this House and make a ministerial statement. When that has been undertaken before this House, it is normal to leave the subject alone until His Honour the Vice-President comes. Then, you will be in a position to ask follow-up 

questions on the ministerial statement.

Hon. Opposition Members: When?

Mr Tetamashimba: Answer the question that I asked.

Mr Speaker: Order! There is only one Speaker here. Do not respond to what they are saying.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: I will guide that it should be done within the next five working days.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Finally, you are working.

SMALL FIREARMS

40. Miss Nawakwi asked the Minister of Home Affairs how many small firearms were issued to private members of the public in the year 2001 and who authorised the issuance.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Sir, the following were the number of small firearms issued to private members of the public in the year 2001:

       Type of gun    Number

Pistols    110
Shortguns    246
Rifles    220

The Central Firearms Registry, through the Firearms Committee, issued provisional Firearms Certificates to private members of the public as authorised by the Firearms Act.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Minister for that answer. However, is he aware that small arms were issued indiscriminately by MMD prior to the Kabwe Convention? Is he aware that these were issued to people who were not trained in the handling of firearms? In some cases, party cadres in Mtendere, in my constituency, I can bring them to you, hon. Minister. If you check your fire arms registry, you 
will find that most holders of hand guns are MMD cadres, who are unemployed, living in places like Garden Over-spill.

Is the hon. Minister in a position to issue an amnesty to withdraw those hand guns because he is making his officers work extra hard? They are unable to control crime, especially with the use of small hand guns which were issued by his predecessors, indiscriminately, prior to the convention in Kabwe.

Mr Speaker: What is the question?

Miss Nawakwi: Is he able to withdraw the handguns, which were issued indiscriminately, by the previous administration?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, there are about three questions in one question. I am not aware of what the first part of the question seeks, although I would have loved to have a situation where the hon. Member came to my office and gave me the information to enable me look at it.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Samukonga (Chawama): Mr Speaker, this is a very serious issue. I wish to support my colleague that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs looks into it extremely seriously. For instance, when I came to this House, through a by-election in Chawama, those party cadres, Kadobis and group from Kulima Tower, were, actually, armed. They missed me with live bullets in Chawama. I had to be hidden by one of the residents.

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is debating the issue rather than asking a question. Perhaps, more importantly, the hon. Member may refrain from naming persons who are outside and who are, thus, unable to defend themselves in this House. He is free to ask a general question, which may incorporate his needs.

Mr Samukonga: Thank you for your guidance, Mr Speaker. I just wish to reiterate my colleague’s request that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs seriously considers withdrawing arms from people who are not qualified to handle them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I believe the hon. Minister has already answered that. Whatever information hon. Members and even members of the public out there have should be lodged with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs so that he may take action.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I am wondering if the Minister of Home Affairs is aware that …

Hon. Government Members: Ask your question.

Mr Shakafuswa: That is a question. Which school did you go to?

I am wondering whether the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is aware that these are the same firearms which are used in most robberies. They are borrowed and just circulate. The issuance of firearms, indiscriminately, to people, who have no purpose of owning them, will increase the incidence of robberies.

Mr Mapushi: I am sure the answer is the same as the one I gave to the hon. Member for Munali. Please, do come to my office so that I can look at your assertions.

Thank you, Sir.

FLIGHT SERVICES

41. Mr Samukonga asked the Vice-President which Government officials were entitled to the following flight services as at 31st March, 2002:

(i)    First Class;
(ii)    Business Class; and
(iii)    Economy Class.

Mr Mukuka: Mr Speaker, the following Government officials were and are entitled to the following flight services as at 31st March, 2002:

First Class

President, Vice-President, Chief Justice and Speaker of the National Assembly.

Business Class

Ministers/Deputy Ministers and public officers of the rank of Permanent Secretary and above.

Economy Class

All other officers below Permanent Secretary level.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, I asked this question because there was a Cabinet memo, to that effect, categorising the modalities of travel by Government officials. I was surprised and, actually, dismayed when on one of my various trips to London, I happened to be on the same flight as the former President and his entourage. Cabinet Ministers were in the First Class. I am aware that a First Class ticket costs about US$8,000, Business Class is about US$3,000 whereas Economy Class costs a paltry US$700. 

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you are debating your question.

Mr Samukonga: I am about to ask a question, Mr Speaker. Even my good friend, Hon. Eric Silwamba, was in First Class. I was surprised how that facility, the modalities of travel, was abused at great cost to the Zambian economy. Can His Honour the Vice-President ensure that does not happen in future.

Mr Speaker: That was a statement, but I believe it needs some clarification.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my colleague is very correct that only very few people are restricted to First Class travel. What happens, in some instances, is that people, perhaps, sponsoring conferences abroad do send First Class tickets to Ministers. When that happens, those Ministers travel First Class. I would like to believe the hon. Member for Chawama was in First Class because he could either afford it himself, or he was going for an important conference for which he had been sent a First Class ticket. Otherwise, my colleague gave correct information.

I thank you, Sir.

ZAWA

42. Mr Moonde asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources if there are any plans by ZAWA officials to meet traditional chiefs and other stakeholders in Bweengwa to discuss the operations of ZAWA.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mrs Nsingo): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that officials of the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) will not hold specific meetings targeting chiefs and other stakeholders in Bweengwa. However, the Zambia Wildlife Authority officials met and consulted with chiefs and other stakeholders, including those in Bweengwa, at two levels, as follows:

National level

The Zambia Wildlife Authority management convened a workshop for some traditional chiefs, community representatives and other stakeholders from all over the country from 26th –31st May 2002. This workshop deliberated and agreed on the following:

(i)    Sharing of benefits accruing from wildlife             utilisation in game management areas;
(ii)    to develop safari hunting concessions             agreements or contracts which would be             signed by the Zambia Wildlife Authority,             local community and safari outfitters that             would have been awarded a hunting                 concession;
(iii)    to source the input of the local community             representatives and other stakeholders in             the draft policy on the Community-Based             Resources Management (CBRM); and
(iv)    to source the input of local community             representatives and other stakeholders on             the code of conduct for professional                 hunters guiding safari hunting clients in any             given hunting area awarded to a safari             outfitter.

Local level

The Zambia Wildlife Authority Management was to hold a one-day meeting on 14th June, 2002 in Livingstone in order to meet with traditional chiefs of the Southern Province to discuss many issues, among them, the operations of the Zambia Wildlife Authority in the province.

Mr Speaker, in all these meetings and consultations, chiefs and other stakeholders from Bweengwa participated and contributed to the final recommendations on how they wanted the Zambia Wildlife Authority to operate in the province, in general, and in protected areas, in particular.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Moonde: I would like to say that I am the Member of Parliament for Bweengwa. In Bweengwa there are only two chiefs. Before raising this question, I had discussions with them. They have sent me, as their representative, to find out what is happening and when the officers from the ZAWA - because there are problems that are peculiar to Bweengwa Constituency that the chiefs would like to discuss - will avail 

themselves to the chiefs in Bweengwa apart from the meetings that are organised in Livingstone.

Mrs Nsingo: Mr Speaker, I have already answered that question. The chiefs from Bweengwa attended this meeting and, therefore, there is no meeting set for chiefs in Bweengwa. If the hon. Member can see me, then we may arrange something about that.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Moonde rose in his seat.

Mr Speaker: Order! You have exhausted your one supplementary question. 

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Tourism to confirm whether she is aware that racism has reappeared in the lodges that are being managed by the so-called investors. In some situations, the moment they know your name is …

Mr Speaker: Question!

Mr Muyanda: The question is: is the hon. Minister aware of the racism that has borne its ugly head back in our society in the lodges managed by white foreign investors?

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair would like to guide the hon. Member that his supplementary question is irrelevant to the substantive question before the House. He may wish to put in a question for oral answer later on. However, if the hon. Minister is generous, she could deal with that question right now.

Mrs Nsingo: Mr Speaker, I am not aware, but I am grateful for the information. I will go and research.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to confirm whether she is aware of the representations that have been made by the chiefs in Bweengwa over the wanton killing of our wildlife by the so-called illegal hunters in the Lochnivar National Park.

Mrs Nsingo: Mr Speaker, I am not aware.

Thank you, Sir.

Colonel Moono (Chilanga): Sir, does the hon. Minister know that ZAWA officers have gone without salaries for a long time? As a result, they have resorted to eating roots despite the enormous task they have to preserve our natural 

resources and attract tourists to Zambia.

Mr Speaker: Order! It is quite clear that this question has been exhausted because hon. Members are, now, asking irrelevant supplementary questions.

LOCAL COURTS

43. Mr Moonde asked the Minister of Legal Affairs when the local court in Chief Hamusonde’s area in Monze District will resume operating and what led to its closure.

The Minister of Legal Affairs (Mr Kunda): I am obliged, Mr Speaker. May it please you.

The local court in question was closed in January, 2000, by members of the community who chased away court staff due to serious misunderstandings arising from accusations by members of the community that the court justices were corrupt.

However, these allegations have not been substantiated or proved. The misunderstandings have, now, been resolved. Those who made the allegations have apologised and the court will resume operating once renovations to the court clerk’s house and the court itself are completed, hopefully, before the end of the year. So far, quotations for the rehabilitation works have been obtained and renovations are expected to start this month.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Moonde: Mr Speaker, I would like to say something rare.

Hon. Members: Question!

Mr Speaker: Question, no debate.

Mr Moonde: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs whether these items have already been bought because when I met the officer responsible in Monze, he said that there was a problem of funds. Can I be assured that funds are, now, available.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, according to the chief administrator of the Judiciary, the money is, now, available and rehabilitation works will commence soon and be completed by the end of the year.

I thank you, Sir.

NATURAL RESOURCES DEVELOPMENT COLLEGE (NRDC)

44.Captain Moono asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when the hostels at NRDC, damaged during the ICASA Conference, will be refurbished.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the NRDC hostels, which were damaged during the ICASA Conference, were, to a large extent, refurbished using the K200 million that was made available on 1st April, 2000. As at now, the hostels are habitable and occupied by students, since the college is in session. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning is disbursing more funds, as I stated yesterday. The funds, which are from the HIPC funds earmarked for the college rehabilitation this year, will total K2 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Captain Moono: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives aware that the equipment which was bought for rehabilitating these hostels was misused by the ICASA organisers? What is he doing to recover that equipment?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I believe this is a new question. The question was whether the hostels were being refurbished. The question as regards abuse by ICASA organisers can only be answered under a separate question because I do not have those details now.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, arising from that response and with reference to the K2 billion, I wonder whether the hon. Minister would like to inform this House correctly that the plans presented by the NRDC, with regard to the HIPC money, are towards restocking the college with livestock and not rehabilitation of hostels, dining hall and kitchen that were destroyed by the ICASA team.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am positive that the hon. Member has got the wrong information.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives whether he is aware that the grounds that the college is built on are, now, leased to ZEGA. I am a very sad man to see that students at the agricultural college cannot even afford food because their grounds have been leased out. Could the hon. Minister shed more light on that one.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, it would appear the hon. Member was not present yesterday because this question was exhausted and in any case the piece of land leased to ZEGA could not be the cause of any students going hungry because the piece of land that was leased was not in use.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

CATTLE EXPORT TO BURUNDI

45. Captain Moono asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how much cattle was exported to Burundi by the Batoka Cattle Development Ranch in the year 2001.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, no cattle was exported to Burundi by the Batoka Cattle Development Ranch in 2001.

I thank you, Sir.

Captain Moono: Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives not know that some cross-breed dairy animals were bought by the President of Burundi from Batoka Ranch by arrangement of a very senior Government official who is in this House?

Hon. Government Members: Aah, no!

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am not aware.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Lay him on the Table!

RETRENCHED CORDON LINE GUARDS

46. Colonel Makumba (Sikongo) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how many cordon line guards were retrenched during the years 2000 and 2001.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, there were no cordon guards retrenched between 2000 and 2001. The last cordon guards were retrenched in 1998 and they numbered sixty-four.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Makumba: Mr Speaker, may I know how the hon. Minister intends to control cattle disease from Angola since he fired all the workers.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives may answer that question and re-emphasise what he said yesterday.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, this question was extensively covered yesterday and we intend to do just what I stated to this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister inform the 

House what happened to the guns which the cordon guards had. Sir, they were armed. What happened to the guns when these people were retrenched? Where are the guns?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am aware that all equipment that was …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Sikatana: When business was suspended, I was about to say that the question asked by the hon. Member for Luena was a serious one. I do not have the information with me but I undertake to make it available after consultations with the Home Affairs Minister.

I thank you, Sir.

SIKONGO SUB-CENTRE

47. Colonel Makumba asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when Sikongo sub-centre in the Western Province will be upgraded to Boma status.

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that Sikongo sub-centre, currently, cannot be given district status because the policy of Government is not to upgrade or establish any new districts. The Government is determined to ensure that the earlier upgraded districts are developed first before the establishment of more districts, as they still depend heavily on Government support. Most of them have inadequate resources and infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, the answer by the Minister of Local Government and Housing is a very serious one. The Government declared new districts and left out Sikongo an old established sub-district. The Government went ahead and created new districts even where there were no sub-districts. We thought they had forgotten Sikongo. That is why we have come back to them to remind them that Sikongo is an old established district. When are you going to consider it for district status?

Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, I think I adequately answered that question.

I thank you, Sir.

MUMBWA/NAMWALA ROAD

48. Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal (Namwala) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the reconstruction of the Mumbwa/Namwala Road will commence.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Katema): Mr Speaker, I would like to say that my Government has no immediate plans to reconstruct the existing roads between Mumbwa and Namwala due to lack of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal: Mr Speaker, in the 2001 Estimates, there was K1 billion set aside for this road. Could the hon. Minister tell this House how that money was spent because there are bushes growing on this road yet nothing has been done. So, I would like to know where the K1 billion went.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of the information that the hon. Member has disclosed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the MMD Government is very unpopular in Mumbwa, Ithezi-tezhi and Namwala because of these roads?

Laughter.

Mr Shepande: What measures is he taking to ensure that this Government improves its image in these areas?

Laughter.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I would like to state here that the New Deal Government attaches a lot of importance to roads and, as such, the goal is that all the roads should be done. However, given the limited resources, only a limited number of roads can be done at any given time.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister saying that the MMD Government is not New Deal or New Deal is not MMD?

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! That question does not arise. It is irrelevant in this House.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, arising from the reply by the hon. Minister that only some roads shall be done, can the hon. Minister tell the House which these important roads which have been prioritised are so that we know which roads are going to be done this year.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, that is a new question but I will be generous and say that in my preamble to the question that was asked, I had said that we attach great importance to all the roads but given the limited resources, only a few or limited roads can be done at any given time.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, the answer from the hon. Minister of Works and Supply is very disappointing. This is July the 24th and the hon. Minister says that the Government has no plans. He is sending a message to the technocrats to give no consideration to the plight of people in Mumbwa and Namwala who are very productive people. Could the hon. Minister, please, be advised, if it is possible, through the Chair, to have some plans for this road, at least, for next year.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, that is a comment and I have taken note of it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister inform this House whether or not priority will be given to roads if the people in that area find contractors who will undertake to do some winter maize growing.

Laughter.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, we will liaise with the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to identify which roads are economically viable in terms of agriculture.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister respond to a specific question that was put to him by the hon. Member for Namwala (Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal) that there is a provision in this year’s financial budget which is specifically for this particular road. The question that was posed was: what happened to the resource that was put aside for this purpose? He has not answered that question. Can he, please, respond.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Works and Supply is a service-providing ministry and as such, it only provides services when the money is made available to it.

I thank you, Sir.

BRIDGE ACROSS KAFUE RIVER ON MUMBWA/NAMWALA ROAD

49. Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal asked the Minister of Works and Supply when a permanent bridge will be built across the Kafue River on the Mumbwa/Namwala Road.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that, again, my Government has no immediate plans of constructing a bridge across the Kafue River on the Mumbwa/Namwala Road due to lack of funds.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal: Mr Speaker, I wonder if the hon. Minister is aware that this link between Mumbwa and Namwala is important in the sense that people from the other side of the river go to the hospital in Namwala. I am wondering if he is aware also that cattle buyers use the pontoon, which is very old and dangerous at the moment. Is he aware that we need a bridge and this is a very important issue?

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I know the importance of the road as well as the bridge but like I said earlier, given the resources, definitely, consideration will be given to this project.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm to this House and, through it, to the country that the MMD Government has no plans for the people of Mumbwa and the people of Namwala.

Interruptions.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, that is a new question and I will not respond to it.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Works 
and Supply, who has clearly told this House that he has no money, aware that he can just talk to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who would advise him on how to access the ZAMSIF funds so that the poor people of Mumbwa and Namwala can have a bridge?

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, that is another comment. I will not respond to it.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! That was not a comment but a question. Are you aware, Sir, that if you walked to the office of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, he would indicate to you where you can access ZAMSIF funds? That was a question and not a statement.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, I am aware about ZAMSIF funding and the advice is timely because the Member of Parliament can also access ZAMSIF.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

INSTITUTIONAL SHARES

50. Mr Patel asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting services when the shares of the following institutions would be sold to the public:

(i)    the Zambia National Broadcasting                 Corporation;
(ii)    the Zambia Daily Mail Limited; and
(iii)    the Times of Zambia Limited.

Mr Chipili: Mr Speaker, the Government has no intention, now, or in the foreseeable future to sell shares to the public because those media institutions are Government channels through which it disseminates information to the public and through which the Government explains its policies and programmes.

Mr Speaker, those institutions will continue to operate side by side with their counterparts, the private media, since the media industry has been liberalised. Anyone, including the public can set up their own media institution without necessarily having to buy shares in the public media.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, it is obvious, with due respect to the hon. Minister, that there is absolute confusion in the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services’ policies pertaining to the public media. It is also obvious that the hon. Minister cannot distinguish between the public-owned media and Government media. Why does the Government continue to own public media, without providing them adequate funding, when they can ordinarily float shares to the public so that the institutions can become truly public media organisations?

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr Zimba): Mr Speaker, it could be true that broadcasting can be enhanced through. the private media. The policy of the Government was enunciated here. It has never been to privatise public media institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services tell us when the freedom of Information Act will be brought to this House. Secondly, there is need for the commercialisation of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation. Can he tell us when he will bring the Act to that effect so that we can all access ZNBC at a fee because, now, it is impossible to be covered. Finally, Sir, …

Hon. Members: Aah! Ask the question!

Mr Matongo: It is a question.

From what the hon. Minister has said on media privatisation, the MMD Government has reneged on the policy of privatisation. Can he reinforce the statement that, in fact, this is no longer the cardinal point as far as his ministry and MMD are concerned.

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, the Information Bill that you are asking about was published for comments. Those comments have been received, although it is outside the question. At a proper time, the Government will begin considering those comments. When that time comes, this House will have a chance to look at the Government proposal.

Now, on reneging on the policy on the media, we have stated, now and again, that we have no intention of privatising the media that you have referred to, including ZNBC. That also falls in the same category. Because we have liberalised the media industry, just organise yourselves to put up a big broadcasting house that should compete with ZNBC like Britain’s Sky News and others, while BBC remains in the hands of Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Zimba: That is the position.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister totally refuses to privatise ZNBC. Is he aware that the Board of Directors of that institution had come up with s survival plan for ZNBC which included, among other things, licensing fees? Now that privatisation is out of question, what are you doing vis-á-vis the survival plan because, right now, ZNBC is in a mess.

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, I seem to have had a lot of exchange of information with the hon. Member when he was General-Secretary of the union. The survival plan was submitted and we want to look at the details with a view to 

resubmitting the plan so that the institution should be self-financing just like the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) where Government subventions are very little. So, we have not abandoned the survival plan.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, I am not satisfied with the answer from the hon. Minister concerning the question which the hon. Member asked about the repeal of the Information Act in order to create a level playing field for other media institutions. Is the hon. Minister aware that the current Act is actually called the Zambia National Broadcasting Act and all other media institutions are subjugated by the Zambia National Broadcasting Services, thereby denying them access to information?

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, there have been licences given based on the laws that have been drawn. Now, as to the reform of the Act, that too is in process to take into account many issues that need to be addressed to improve the performance of the institution. So, it is not true that I have not given accurate information because that is all I can tell this House. We are not running away from our responsibility to bring changes whenever they are necessary.

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, there is an obvious misunderstanding of the question. The hon. Minister’s answer is saying that they will not privatise. The question is not asking the hon. Minister to privatise. Is the hon. Minister not aware that issuing of shares in a publicly-owned company to members of the public, who are the owners, is one way of recapitalising a company? Is he aware that even Farmers House on Cairo Road has raised over K1 million by floating its shares to the public? That is not privatisation. Is there no obvious misunderstanding of the question?

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, the case of Farmers’ House is different. I am quite aware that the public owns this institution on behalf of …

Mr Sikota: You do not understand the question.

Mr Zimba: Yes, I do. 

Mr Patel: You do not understand.

Mr Zimba: Yes, I understand. You were there. The issue of open shares never arose. The Government owns this institution on behalf of the public. So, if the public makes submissions, we have to listen to them so that we bring in certain changes, not necessarily privatisation. You are free to form media companies that should service the people. But as for ZNBC, the answer I have already given you still stands.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena: Mr Speaker, arising from the assurance that the Government has interest to run all the three institutions, what is the hon. Minister doing to avoid the tendency, by the Government, of treading upon impartial reporters in order for them to deliver quality services to the citizens?

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that we are treading on reporters. They are controlled by their managers.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I just want to go back to Hon. Nawakwi’s question. I do not think the hon. Minister has understood the question. The question is whether we can make these institutions truly public by letting the public directly own shares in them. 

Hon. Government Members: No.

Mr Hachipuka: Instead of the Government holding the shares, can the public directly own these institutions by buying shares in them? If we do this, no party that comes to power can abuse them.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, firstly, I do not think that the Government abuses the public media.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: I have, on several occasions, watched the hon. Member for Kafue take reporters to the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia who have covered him on television. We have given you K20 billion for the re-opening of Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia and the use of public media. 

Hon. Opposition members: Aah!

The Vice-President: The Zambian Government is for the people and the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation is owned by the Government on behalf of the people of 

Zambia. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have, at no time, stopped anyone from starting their own broadcasting service or television. If anything, I am aware of TBN Studio. I am aware of somebody else who has a licence to start a television station. I am also aware of several radio stations, including one based in Monze that I believe is partly owned by a spouse of one of the hon. Members of this august House.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, having served as the first Chairman of the Times of Zambia Board under the MMD Government in 1993, I am in a position to say that there has been a shift of policy by the MMD Government towards privatisation of these institutions. I would like to ask a question …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Sichinga: … and I do not want you to act as speakers. I would like the hon. Minister to clarify, explain and confirm to this House that, firstly, there has been a shift of policy. Secondly, he does not, in fact, even understand what the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Act stipulates regarding the registration of other institutions that want to go into broadcasting. 

Interruptions.

Mr Sichinga: Can he clarify and confirm to this House that, in fact, what I have stated here is the correct position and that he has given this House inaccurate information.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there has been no shift of Government thinking on the private or public media. We are aware that the public media are under-funded. If money is found and ZNBC is recapitalised, it could make more money on the Lusaka Stock Exchange unlike, now, when it is at rock bottom. 

Secondly, I wish to emphasise that we have, at no time, stopped anyone from starting their own paper. 

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! I think this House would do itself a great service if it listened to itself by listening to one another as we ask and answer questions. The Government is on the Floor and interrupting may not help much.

Will the Vice-President continue, please, and give answers from the view of the Executive.

The Vice-President: The hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services operates under the Act set by this House, the Broadcasting Act. Therefore, we are very much aware of what we are supposed to do. The public media institutions are under-funded, hence, the problems. But we are in the process of putting more money, as you have heard all afternoon, into public media. Once that is done, the public media will become viable, even for us to go on the stock exchange and float shares at a rate that will bring in money.

I thank you, Sir.

MOTIONS

APPOINTMENT OF MR MKHONDO DANWOOD LUNGU, MP, AS DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES OF THE WHOLE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that in terms of the provisions of Standing Order No. 9 of the National Assembly, the House do appoint the hon. Member for Lundazi Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Nkhondo Danwood Lungu, MP, as Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House.

Mr Speaker, the need for the appointment of a Deputy Chairman of Committees arises from the fact that there should be somebody to act in the Chair as both the hon. Mr Speaker and hon. Mr Deputy Speaker may, sometimes, not be available or, indeed, each one of them may require some relief, for unavoidable reasons or for convenience of work outside the House.

Standing Order No. 9 provides as follows:

‘9 (1) The Deputy Speaker shall be the Chairman of             Committees of the Whole Assembly.

(2) The House may appoint one of its Members other         than the Vice-President, Minister, Deputy Minister         or any Member holding or acting in any office         prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament to be         Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole         Assembly.

(3) When the House is in Committee, any Member         other than the Vice-President, Deputy Minister or         any Member holding or acting in any office             prescribed by or under an Act of Parliament may, at         the request of the Chairman or the Deputy Chairman         of Committees, take the Chair for a short time.’

Mr Speaker, the invoking of the provisions of Standing Order No. 9 by the House has become a necessary option to avert a situation where the proceedings of the House, and in particular, those of the Committees of the Whole House, are disrupted due to lack of a presiding officer.

Mr Speaker, I wish to remind hon. Members that the arrangements provided by Standing Order No.9 are not peculiar to the Zambian Parliament alone. It is a practice that obtains in most Commonwealth countries.

Sir, the House may recall that when the House invoked the provisions of Standing Order No. 9 in 1994, it was decided that the tenure of office of the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House be for one Session of Parliament. This practice was found inappropriate and in 

1997, it was decided that the tenure of office of the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House be for the whole term of the Eighth Parliament.

As a result of the change in practice, the then Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House retained this position from the day he was appointed in 1997 until he resigned in 2001.

Mr Speaker, except for the brief period between last year and this year, the office of the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House has been in existence since 1994. Over this period, the office acquired the following distinct features:

(i)    The office has operated on part-time basis. This means that the holder of the office has not been entitled to a permanent vehicle nor staff. However, the staff of the House have, at all times, been available for advice and guidance;

(ii)    The Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House has not been involved in the day-to-day administration of Parliament. However, for the purposes of carrying out his duties, particularly, when the House is sitting, he has been eligible to attend meetings on the Business of the House as and when necessary;

(iii)    The holder of the office deputises the Chairman of Committees of the Whole House and carries out any other duties that the hon. Mr Speaker assigns from time to time. As a result, the holder of the office has been entitled to office accommodation at Parliament Buildings and a monthly allowance, in addition to the normal emoluments a Member of Parliament is entitled to.

Mr Speaker, it has been decided that for the time being, the office should maintain these distinct features. However, due to the increase in the volume of work in recent years, it has further been decided that the position of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House will be full time. It is, however, prudent to emphasise that the duties of the holder of this position will be confined to procedures of the House and its committees.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that the title of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House has been a subject of discussion for sometime now. In particular, 

[The Vice-President]

it has been observed that the title is misleading. There are times when the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House is regarded as subordinate to the Chairman of Sessional Committees and this has caused embarrassment to the holder of the office. Even at the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association (CPA) and (IPU) conferences, the title has caused protocol problems for it is not clear whether the position is above or below that of Deputy Speaker.

Sir, in order to streamline this position in line with what obtains in other Commonwealth Parliaments, it has been decided that the title be changed to either Assistant Speaker or Second Deputy Speaker.

However, to ensure that the proposed change is constitutional, the House is consulting other relevant authorities before this change is effected. The House will, in due course, be informed of the final decision on this matter.

Sir, allow me, now, to give a brief background of the hon. Member I am presenting before the House for appointment to the post of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Lundazi Constituency was born in Mpamba Village, Chief Mpamba’s area in Lundazi District on 18th February, 1943.

Mr Chilufya: Kanshi caiche!

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Between 1970 and 1974, Hon. Mkhondo Danwood Lungu, was enrolled at the University of Zambia where he obtained a Bachelor of Arts Degree. He then proceeded to the University of Nairobi, Kenya, in 1976, where he successfully completed a postgraduate Diploma in International Relations.

Mr Lungu has had an illustrious career in the public service. He worked as a teacher from 1966 to 1969. During this period, he left the teaching service and joined Cabinet office as a Cadet Officer; that is, senior executive officer. He was elevated to the rank of Principal Secretary at Cabinet Office, a rank he held from 1979 to 1982. He later joined the diplomatic service and was appointed first Secretary/Political at the Zambian Mission to the United Nations in New York (United States of America). While in the diplomatic service, Mr Lungu rose to the rank of Deputy High Commissioner and served in this capacity from 1982 to 1985 at the Zambia High Commission in Ottawa, Canada, and from 1986 to 1987, at the Zambian Embassy in London, United Kingdom. 

In June, 1987, Mr Lungu was recalled to Zambia and was appointed Chief of Protocol at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, a position he held until his appointment as Deputy Permanent Secretary. He retired from the Civil Service as Permanent 

Secretary in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, a position he held from 1993 to 1996.

On the political scene, Hon. Lungu has been an active member of UNIP since 1960. Since December, 2001, he has been a Member of  Parliament for the Lundazi Parliamentary Constituency.

Hon. Lungu has the requisite qualifications which justify his nomination for the position of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House. He has travelled extensively and has a rich experience in administrative matters. I am confident that his exposure and experience in the diplomatic and Civil Service qualifies him to perform the important duties of the post of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House.

Sir, it, now, rests on me to appeal to all hon. Members of this august House to unanimously support this straight-forward motion.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me time to contribute to the debate on this motion.

Mr Speaker, we have to look behind and assess where we have come from as a country. We have come from a situation where the country was a one-party State and we know the consequences that followed. We are, now, in a situation where Parliament has checks and balances. Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament being proposed is a distinguished son of the country. However, we just wish and hope this proposal is not a means, through the back door, to stifle democracy in the House.

Interruptions.

Mr Mukwakwa: Secondly, Mr Speaker, the timing of the 
appointment is also something which reminds some people of the departure we had last week of the then Deputy Speaker. With this motion on the Floor, I would like to remind the House, Mr Speaker, that the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services is on record as having said, some time last week, that, the following Wednesday, there was going to be a merger of parties. What day is it? Is it today, Sir?

This is the only reason why I am concerned. Otherwise, I have no problem with the hon. Member. I appeal to our colleagues in the Government to be cautious because some people who were in the Government before are, now, in the opposition. They never thought that they would be in the Opposition. I hope the intentions are noble.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I wish to welcome the appointment of Hon. Lungu. Sir, the hon. Member is a distinguished son of this country. He was, as we have been told, a Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and he was also the Chief of Protocol. He is a very humble gentleman and it is very easy to get along with him. I think we are going to find him very accommodating in the Chair.

I would also wish to appeal to the mother party, UNIP, to free itself from any overtures from the ruling party. There is no way a socialist party, that has brought independence to this country, can link itself with a capitalist party.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: UNIP is a mother party that has brought independence to this country and it is very important that UNIP does away with proposals of snap elections or merging. This country needs money to feed the starving people. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has no funds to allocate, as we have heard, to various Government projects which hon. Ministers have been telling us about. Here we are, hearing UNIP propose snap elections when we have no money to feed the people. 

We would like distinguished people in UNIP to advise those that think they can link up with the ruling party. How can UNIP forget so soon what happened in Kabwe when the first President of this country was shot at which matter is yet to be resolved? We are lucky that the founding father was not killed by those bullets. How can UNIP, of all parties, want to merge with MMD when the old man was imprisoned at Mukobeko for six months?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Sibetta: He was also imprisoned near this place. His house was gazetted as a prison. Without the late founding father of Tanzania, the old man would still be languishing in 
prison. How can UNIP, of all parties, our mother party, do that? Mr Speaker, I was a Minister in the UNIP Government. With all the scandals of financial mismanagement taking place in MMD, it is unthinkable that UNIP can sink so low as to go for a honeymoon with the ruling party.

Laughter.

Mr Zimba: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Zimba: Mr Speaker, we, on this side of the House, are getting concerned with the manner of the debate by the hon. Member. He is taking advantage of the Leader of Government Business’ proposal for Hon. Lungu to be Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House to go on an onslaught of 

UNIP. Where does the merger come in?

Hon. Opposition Members: Ask your point of order.

Mr Zimba: Is he in order to go astray and bring in matters that are unconnected to the motion on the Floor?

Mr Speaker: Order! The point of order that has just been raised by the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services gives me an opportunity to guide the House that the motion on the Floor of this House has nothing to do with mergers of political parties.

All the motion is asking for is the House to nominate or appoint one of its Members to the position of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House. That is the motion. Mergers of political parties are not a subject of this House. If there are any discussions, they are done out there. Mind you, all of you are Members of Parliament of the Republic of Zambia. Therefore, there can be no distinction in terms of those who should serve the Republic in whatever capacity when an opportunity arises. I am not participating in this debate but merely guiding the House. Please, stick to the subject.

Mrs Masebo: Point of clarification.

Mr Sibetta: No, you do not do that. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you for your clarification and guidance. We, here, like I have said, support the appointment of our brother although he is being made to feel that it is the ruling party appointing him. This is an office of the House. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: It has nothing to do with the ruling party.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Sibetta: Do not give UNIP indications that you can merge. The two of you are incongruent. You cannot merge.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: You cannot merge! Our brother, here, is being supported by all of us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor of the House in order to continue defying the Speaker’s ruling that matters of political affiliation are not part of the motion on the Floor? Is he in order to continue debating in the manner and style he is doing now?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister for Southern Province has raised a pertinent point of order. The hon. Member for Luena may debate as I have guided. Is he or is he not in favour of the motion? That is the question. Will you, please, wind up your motion and bear in mind that a number of hon. Members wish to debate as well.

Mr Sibetta: I want to make it abundantly clear to the hon. Deputy Minister for Southern Province who has not resigned from this side yet, …

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: He is a card carrying Member of our party here.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: I want to make it abundantly clear that we, here, support our brother …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: … and that we are going to submit to his orders and instructions. But in passing, UNIP is a very important African institution. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: UNIP has brought independence to this country and Southern Africa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: We are advising UNIP not to lose the nationalist path that it charted for this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!

Mr Sibetta: The ruling party is dying, Mr Speaker, if the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services is not aware.

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Luena in order to totally ignore the ruling of the Speaker …

Interruptions.

Dr Chituwo: The motion before the House is: ‘do they support the motion or not?’

I seek your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Health is raising a point of order which has already been raised by other hon. Members. In this case, I think the Chair was listening. He has not gone astray.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: He was on the point. May the hon. Member for Luena continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Long live the Chair.

Mr Sibetta: I really thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: The hon. Minister of Health is aware of what happened in the Mumbwa by-elections.

Laughter.

Mr Sibetta: He is aware that we are actually his friends. He is aware of that. 

Mr Speaker, I was merely reminding Hon. Lungu that as he climbs the platform to Chair in your absence and the absence of the Deputy Speaker, he should not harbour the illusion that UNIP can be allowed by the people of this country to entertain mergers. 

Laughter.

Mr Speaker rose in his seat.

Mr Sibetta: I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Kombe (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, some of us do not stand up here to debate …

Hon. Opposition Members: That is your problem.

Mr Kombe: … because we enjoy listening to some of the important debates, in fact, very wise debates from the Opposition. We would like to learn as much as possible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kombe: But the kind of animosity, arm twisting and friction that the Opposition bring in here, will make some of us stand up and talk.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kombe: This is a very straightforward motion and I rise to second and support my brother who is quite focused …

Miss Nawakwi: You do not second a Government motion.

Mr Sibetta: You see!

Laughter.

Mr Kombe: This is not Chongwe.

Mr Chisala: She is from Munali Constituency.

Laughter.

Mr Kombe: He is quite focused, articulate and very intelligent, even though he is ugly …

Laughter. 

Mr Kombe: … but we know where he is coming from. We will support him all the time. May I, therefore, ask God’s blessings to guide him as he delivers the goods.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): I thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for affording me this opportunity to contribute on the motion. 

I stand here to support the motion and in supporting it, I do not want to be irrelevant to this august House and to the nation. The Zambian people, out there, are suffering because for ten years, now, we have not delivered. We have only been talking

Mr Speaker, UNIP is not a branch of any political party in this country. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, UNIP is a mature political party …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr L. L. Phiri: …with leaders who have suffered from the time Zambia became independent.

UNIP is the richest party in Zambia with assets all over the country. It has leaders who are not so desperate for positions, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: … without thinking about the sufferings 

of the people out there. God gives positions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: If some people are in a hurry for positions and want to bulldoze others, I would say that we do not need that this time because the Zambian people cannot afford three meals per day. 

I understand that in some provinces animals are dying and in others people are relying on relief food. Therefore, I would want to caution hon. Members that when we come here, let us talk about how we are going to develop Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Sir, if some people champion wrong courses because they are in a hurry to be where they want to be, then it is unfortunate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, we are aware that some people have been meeting under trees.

Laughter.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: We are also aware that some people have been maligning other parties …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear, hammer!

Mr Haakaloba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the fact that we talk to impress, as the previous speaker seems to be suggesting.

Hon. Government Members: Point of order!

Mr Haakaloba: The point of order I am raising is whether the hon. Member for Chipangali is in order to refer to trees which are not in this House for them to give a response to his insinuations.

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Chipangali may continue …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … but come within the motion. May he continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hammer! Hammer!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I promised that I would not be irrelevant to this debate because I am a true Zambian and a patriot.

Interruptions.

Mr L. L. Phiri: UNIP boycotted elections in 1996 because it had facts. We were against corruption, the selling of Zambian companies and, generally, what was happening in the country. We did that on principle. 

Mr Speaker, any party that participated in elections last year is convinced that it will work with MMD because they have some good policies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: They are here because of the Government’s good polices and governance record. They are not walking out because the Government is paying them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, we have other positions like Leader of the Opposition which is still vacant and if, today, other parties were given an opportunity to fill it, they would accept it under the MMD Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: So, when we are talking of national issues, Mr Speaker, we have to make sure that Parliament articulates what people are expecting out there. Let us not bring in issues that will not develop Zambia.

Mr Kazala-Laski: Do not stop!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: We want people to be focussed as leaders who have come here to make sure that there are proper checks and accountability in this Government. That is why we are 

here.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, the MMD has realised, now, that within themselves they cannot go very far. They need this side of the House, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: … for them to deliver what the people expect.

We all wanted the Speaker and Deputy Speaker to come from the right side of the House. But what are we trying to do? We want to work with the MMD Government. What the MMD Government has done is in line with what we, the Opposition, have always wanted in an attempt to work with the Government. Next time, what we would want to see, since there are three or four major positions, if you are serious about working with the Opposition, stop bulldozing by giving conditions. We are going to work with you without conditions attached, and do not use confrontation in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, Hon. Mkhondo Lungu is going into that Chair as an Opposition Member coming from a principled party and there is no way Hon. Mkhondo Lungu will betray the people of Zambia like other people think. 

UNIP will give proper guidance to Hon. Lungu. He is mature because of mixing with people who have come from a party which has a history of good leadership. Mr Speaker, let Hon. Lungu have the freedom to decide where to go and what to vote for when voting comes because it involves the suffering of the people. He will decide as an Opposition Member who is very mature. Where good or bad governance is concerned, UNIP will advise him accordingly with the support of the people from parties which have the interests of Zambia at heart.

Mr Speaker, I just wanted to ask my fellow hon. Members of Parliament not to divert attention, let us be friends because people are suffering and we need unity. I concur with the people who have acknowledged the sufferings that Dr Kaunda underwent. The Opposition ensured Dr Kaunda was paid the benefits that he was denied. I cherish your support. Dr Kaunda’s house and all the benefits are, now, in place, thanks to the Opposition Members. We have supported each other, let us remain friends and maintain unity for this Government to work according to the people’s expectations. Unnecessary tension will divert the good and well meaning intentions of this august House.

Mr Speaker, I think the hearts, now, have cooled down for those people who wanted to bring in other things. We want unity.

Laughter

Mr L. L Phiri: Finally, I support the motion and ask hon. Members to be focussed so that we start cherishing what MMD has recognised in working with the Opposition in Zambia.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I have known Hon. Lungu for a very long time. He is a man of integrity and if the House will recall, and as a matter of public knowledge, he was also nominated for election to the Deputy Speaker’s position, but the numbers were not there. Anyway, that is the essence of democracy.

Mr Speaker, credit must be given where it is due. It seems, and I will use the word ‘seems’ or it appears that the Government of the day is willing to listen and willing to work with all Members of Parliament. Maybe, these are the first steps towards what I would call tactics of good governance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Therefore, I would like to give credit to the Government for having proposed, obviously, with consultations, the name of an hon. Member from the Opposition for this position. 

I would like to take this opportunity, also, to congratulate 

the hon. Deputy Speaker on his election and. I would like to suggest that the role of both Deputy Speaker and Deputy Chairman of Committees is a very important one. The understanding of our Standing Orders is very important. If any misunderstandings do arise, it appears to me, having been here for eleven years now, that usually it is due to the misunderstanding of Standing Orders by the presiding officer, in this case the Deputy Chairman of Committees. I do hope that he will take his time to understand the procedures and practices of the House and the Standing Orders.

Sir, I listened, very carefully, to the submissions made by His Honour the Vice President who went to some length to discuss the role and responsibilities of the Deputy Chairman and the consultations that are taking place in the Commonwealth. I was a bit baffled because I thought that procedures and practices of Parliament are the preserve of you, Mr Speaker, and your Standing Orders. In that light, some of the remarks made by His Honour the Vice President can be construed as interference in the procedures and practices of the House. Therefore, I hope that he will withdraw those remarks.

Laughter.

Mr Patel: Having said that – because we must keep the distinction between the Executive the Legislature and the Judiciary - there is also the Parliamentary Reform Programme going on. Thus, I would like to ask the Vice President to avoid making references to the practices and procedures of what he personally may believe to be the role of Deputy Chairman of Committees, when it is not his preserve.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! I will give a chance to two more hon. 

Members to say something, and then we will have to make progress on this matter. 

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, from the outset, I would like to say that I support the motion on the Floor in totality. However, I would like to point out that the motion is not about UNIP, MMD, FDD or UPND. The motion is about Hon. Mkhondo Danwood Lungu. So, Sir, if a party is finished, let it be finished and if a party is alive, let it be alive but what is at stake, right now, is the person of Hon. Mkhondo Danwood Lungu.

Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the Government on having nominated Hon. Mkhondo Danwood Lungu to the position of Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House. Just taking a glance at the old man, he is very old, indeed ...

Laughter.

Mr Ngoma: ... but his appearance is more youthful than many of us in this House. That testifies to the fact that he has kept himself well. Coming to experience, the position of Chief of Protocol of Government is not a small one. It requires a man of high integrity and steadfastness at work. That testifies to what Hon. Mkhondo Lungu is.

Socially, Sir, I have interacted with him and ...

Laughter.

Mr Ngoma: ... as a youth, through this interaction, I came to discover that he is very sociable, indeed. On a political note, he has been giving me and some of my colleagues good political advice. In situations, which were very critical, he has come to our aid.

In conclusion, Sir, I would like to remind Hon. Lungu to remember where he has come from, and that is the Opposition. The fact that he has been nominated to be the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House does not mean that he ceases to be a Member of the Opposition and becomes a Government employee. I want to give him very free advice, and it is up to him to take it or leave it, that he should always remember where he has come from. 

All in all, I thank the Government and I hope that the nominee is going to deliver to the best of his ability.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr R. K. Chulumanda (Luanshya): In conclusion, Sir, ...

Laughter.

Mr R. K. Chulumanda: ... a wise decision has been made. The right man has to take the position and we all congratulate him. Welcome!

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Before His Honour the Vice President winds up his motion, I would, yet again, like to remind the Members to study their guidelines on the manner of debate in this House. It is very likely, for the first time since 1964, that a Member of Parliament has actually spoken from the wrong seat. We discovered this much later.

This Parliament, maybe, unlike the House of Commons, assigns seats and your rules say you must speak from your 

[Mr Speaker]

assigned seat. So, please, follow your rules. I did not wish to interfere or interrupt the hon. Member’s address but he was speaking from the wrong seat. I will not name the Member, but this should be of benefit to all of you.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank all those who have contributed to this motion and supported it. We are a party that is all-inclusive. We are going to work with all those who would like to work with us and we are going to identify men of talent and integrity to assist us through ...

Hon. Member: How about women?

The Vice-President: We certainly have a lot of room for women.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we have, as you can see behind me, men and women who are capable of filling the position that we are soliciting support for. But, because we would like to work with everybody and those who have something to contribute, it is our policy to bring them closer so that the people of Zambia benefit from their experience. Indeed, Hon Lungu is a man of tremendous experience and we feel that he can contribute to the running of Parliament and the country as a whole.

Mr Speaker, my brother, the hon. Member for Zambezi East (Mr Mukwakwa), firstly, likes to see evil in everything before he sees light.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: We are not doing anything wrong to the Opposition. We are not stifling you at all. If anything, we would like to strengthen the Opposition so that in the event that things should change, we will have experienced people on both sides of the House. That is MMD 2002.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Therefore, our intentions are noble and we are still identifying men and women who, we believe, can contribute to the running of this country. We shall make the offer. If they do not want, that is fine. We have got enough numbers to do the job.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah, debate the motion!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, allow me, at this juncture, to welcome to the House, the new Member of Parliament for Lufwanyama.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! And Foreign Affairs!

The Vice-President: Of course, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is a long standing colleague of mine. We have worked with him and as you know, Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet is a very high ranking position in the Civil Service. So, we very much welcome him.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Sibetta, supports Hon. Lungu and cautions him about the new overtures from the MMD because we are a capitalist party. We are not. If anything, we are working for the people of Zambia whether from a capitalist or socialist angle.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, Hon. Sibetta believes that Hon. Mpombo may still be a card carrying member of his party. If that is so, we see nothing wrong in the MMD. This is why we have brought a man from UNIP to join us. We could also bring one of you there to work with us. We have no problems with that at all.

Hon. Kombe, my brother and friend from Kantanshi, fully supported the motion. We are happy that the MMD welcomes Mr Deputy Speaker, wholeheartedly, in his new position. That is MMD 2002.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali supports the movement by the MMD in appointing a senior colleague from his party to work with us. That is the spirit. These positions do come and go but when they come, congratulate the person that has got it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: In politics, there are neither permanent enemies nor permanent friends. You can imagine, those you have heard meeting under trees. Did you ever think they could meet? Now they meet. That is politics.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, we welcome Hon. Lungu because he has started rising in political ranks. That is how it should be. When I first came to this House, I was a back-bencher. Today, I am the longest serving elected Member of Parliament. Once upon a time, I was a junior when I came here. I started from the back bench up to the front bench. So, the same will go for those who are stable.

We know a lot of people in this House who will not make it because of what they are.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President reached for a glass of  water.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Next time, put in gin and tonic.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: The hon. Member of Parliament for Sinda is an up-coming young man. I think you have a future. It is just polepole, slowly, and you will get there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Motion!

The Vice-President: Those you hear criticising were, once upon a time, here as Government Ministers but because they did not follow the way this game is played, they found themselves in many parts of this House.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: Hon. L. L. Phiri, you have a bright future. That is the spirit. When a person is elected, you should support them. The idea of wanting to fight for power, to push too much for it, can land you in trouble. I speak from experience. I have seen many people come with too much political ambition only to end up outside.

Last week, when we were debating the removal of the immunity of the former President, you heard some people who thought they were very popular coming to see students at the gate here and they were almost beaten up by students. That is politics.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: I congratulate you, Hon. Lungu, for joining our ranks. I have known you for a long time. I have no cause to doubt your ability to execute this job effectively. I had to say what I said because some people, perhaps, Members of Parliament, may not know what is involved in being Chairman of Committees of the Whole House. This is why I had to go into full details because it is, probably, the first time it has happened during their time here. So, I had to go through it all. It is a very important post.

What it means is that in the absence of the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker, you take charge of the House. It is a very important post. A lot would have wanted to be where you are going to be but you are the chosen one.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I thank, you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do, now, adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1803 hours until 1430 hours on 25th July 2002.