Debates- Tuesday, 30th July, 2002

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Tuesday, 30th July, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






81. Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali) asked the hon. Minister of Home Affairs:

(a)    how many defilement cases were recorded between January, 2000, and May, 2002, and how many offenders were prosecuted;

(b)    how many of these cases involved girls from the age of 2 to 15;

(c)    how many of these cases involved defilement by parents; and

(d)    which province had the highest rate of defilement cases.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, cases of defilement from January, 2002 to May, 2002, were 927. Out of these, 753 were prosecuted. 925 of these cases involved girls between the ages of two and fifteen. 250 cases involved parents. Lusaka had the highest number of defilement cases.
Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, with such a high number of our young girls being defiled, could the hon. Minister tell this august House what measures the Government is taking to protect our young from being abused by their fathers or the other culprits we have just heard about? In the absence of laws, which people can fear in this country, does the Government intend to bring in a castration Bill?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, our Government is addressing this issue through the Victim Support Unit and NGOs who are sensitising the people against these vices. Currently, we have no Bill coming in place for castration or otherwise.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Speaker, the issues and answers that have been given by the hon. Minister are a source of major worry. The question being asked by this House is whether we do not need a different approach to address the problem that is before us? Is the Government taking any extraordinary measures that will deal with this problem, which has become so prevalent? Does it not call for special measures from the Government since they do not appear to be bringing forward any additional Bills to deal with this problem?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, our ministry together with the donor community, has been trying to address the issue of juvenile offenders. Normally you find that the people involved in these vices are juveniles against fellow juveniles. Apart from the parents, the majority of the offenders are juveniles. Therefore, the solution to this problem requires the participation of both the parents and the Government. I can assure you that my Government will try to work with the hon. Members of this august House to find ways and means of reducing this scourge.

Mr Haakaloba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mrs I. M. Wina (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs’ response is again a source of worry. Does the hon. Minister realise that this problem is so serious that if we had to wait for the donors to give us whatever support they give us in order to arrest the fathers, uncles and neighbours who are molesting our little children, without Government taking a deliberate step on their own to address this, this problem will not not be solved. Does he see a solution to this problem?

Secondly, the strengthening of the law, I think, is a must because. Currently the Local Courts where these cases are heard can only impose imprisonment of up to three years and no more. Therefore, so long as we do not have deterrent measures this problem will continue. What laws are we going to in place, including the one suggested by the hon. Member for Chipangali?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, this is a very delicate question, which requires all of us to put our heads together, and, indeed, our Government is not sitting idly by. We are trying to find ways of strengthening the law so that offenders are dealt with accordingly.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haakaloba: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Members: Order!


Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East): Mr Speaker, may I know why Lusaka is topping the list? Is it because Lusaka is the capital city of Zambia or what?


Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, Lusaka Province is the most highly populated province in the country, and of course, it is the most urbanized, hence the statistics being high.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, my question arises from the response by the hon. Minister when he said that Government is working very closely with the NGOs to address this problem. Is this factual information from the hon. Minister, because in the past when NGOs tried to demonstrate against this, the police actually disrupted their demonstrations, which were very peaceful.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, illegal demonstrations are illegal. When NGOs demonstrate for a noble cause, definitely, the police will not be high-handed. We are trying to work with the NGOs. After all, they are part of the Zambian society and most of them are founded on the principle of supplementing Government efforts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: ... from the hon. Minister’s answer regarding donors, I would like to find out, from him what, particularly, they expect donors to do on matters of defilement in this country. Is this one of the areas in which they are going to fail and, therefore, expect to blame it on the donors like they have done in the last ten years?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much. In this particular case the donors’ role is to assist in financing those who run these NGOs and those who are going to go out educating people against this evil practice.

Mr Speaker, it is assumed that one has to be sick to defile a two year old child. Therefore, in as much as the Government is concerned, this is not an issue for the Government alone. It is for the whole community to ensure that it should never happen. This is a new phenomenon. We get many reasons for it. We are informed that defiling one’s own blood is one way of creating wealth. We, as a Government, are very worried, indeed, about the high number of these cases because it is against our nature and it is taboo for a parent to defile his own child, let alone a child as young as five or ten years.

Mr Speaker, it is my hope that even the Opposition Members of Parliament and the community at large will fight this scourge which is bringing shame to the country as a whole.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chibanga (Chama North): Mr Speaker, could the Government confirm that this is happening because the Government has no laws regarding the nightclubs, which we hear about like Zenon, etc. Can the Government confirm that this is the reason why we have such a large number of cases here in Lusaka? The Government is toothless on these nightclubs.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, when we look at the case at hand, which is defilement, the age group involved is between two and fifteen years. People in this age group do not normally go to nightclubs.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Speaker, in line with defilement and the enacting of laws to curb this vice, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs whether he is aware that early this year, in Chipata Constituency, an expatriate was caught with tapes in which young girls were defiled and enticed to have sex with dogs. This expatriate is still walking in the streets of Chipata town scot-free. If there are laws in place, could the hon. Minister clear us on that.


Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, as a ministry we are not aware of that, therefore, it is a new question. However, we will follow it up.


Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs considering increasing the jail sentences of these offenders?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, that is one of the options for strengthening the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawa (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, does this mean that the Government has failed to enact a law to save our children from this molestation.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, laws against defilement are there and this House enacted them and it is hoped that the hon. Member or her predecessors participated in enacting them. The law is there, but defilement should not just happen. The Government will certainly consider putting the perpetrators of this crime away for a very long time. This will keep them away from abusing their own children and children generally.

It should never happen that an adult, in a town where there are so many fully grown-up women hanging around the streets looking for men, should find pleasure in defiling his own child and leaving those that want to be eeh…


The Vice-President: ... to be loved.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister of Home Affairs clarify whether the Police Service belongs to his ministry or not? The hon. Member for Chipata has said that the expatriate was caught by the police, but the hon. Minister claims that the ministry is not aware of the incident. Where do the police belong? 

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, firstly, it is very difficult to believe that a person is able to do that. Now, assuming that what the hon. Member for Chipata is saying is correct, then we would want to know from the police command in the Eastern Province why that person has not been arrested. This is because even just the thought, now it is even getting worse...
Mr Haakaloba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. Is His Honour the Vice-President, as Leader of Government Business in this august House in order to try and justify the stand by the Government when he knows very well that one of his Deputy Ministers is languishing in the Back Bench. I am referring to the new hon.  Deputy Minister of Education.


Mr Speaker: Order! I believe the House as a whole is at a loss with regard to that point of order. There is nothing to stop any Member of Parliament from sitting anywhere in the House. It could be the Front Bench, the Back Bench or any bench at all. So, that point of order cannot be dealt with. No offence has been committed.

Next question, please.

Hon. Member: He was answering!

Mr Speaker: No, the hon. Member interrupted a very important answer from the Government. He has told this House that he was not interested in hearing what His Honour the Vice-President had to say on this matter.


82. Mr Shumina (Mangango) asked the Minister of Home Affairs what measures had been taken to ensure that refugees from Rwanda, Burundi and Angola are repatriated to their countries.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, currently, our Government has not opened any tripartite discussions with Rwanda and Burundi. As you may be aware, the situation in Burundi and Rwanda has not allowed us to open up tripartite discussions to repatriate refugees from there. As for Angola, tripartite discussions are going on and the signing will be done in due course. 

Mr Speaker, as I am speaking to you, we have over ten thousand Angolans who have gone back to Angola voluntarily. Out of this ten thousand, four thousand came from camps in North-Western and Western provinces. The remaining six thousand are the ones who had settled spontaneously in villages along the border.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that refugees from Burundi and Rwanda, who were settled in Tanzania, have actually gone back to their countries because the Government of Tanzania negotiated with the Governments of Burundi and Rwanda? Why has the hon. minister come here with an incorrect answer pretending that things are not okay in Rwanda when it is at peace now? 

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, when you compare the refugees who came into Zambia and those who went to Tanzania, the Zambian situation is different from the Tanzanian one. I am talking about the Zambian situation.

The refugees who are in Zambia are not ready to go. The international law says that we cannot take them back against their will. It is up to them to choose to go back. We can facilitate that through the UNHCR. Up to now, as far as our Government is concerned, the situation is not yet ideal for them to go and they have not yet come to us to tell us whether they want to go or not.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Liato (Kaoma): Mr Speaker, is Government, through the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, aware that because of the presence of these refugee camps, there is a high circulation of guns. In places like Kaoma, there are guns in circulation and people have formed groups, of young men, which terrorise villagers. These groups are called Karavinas. What is the ministry doing to disarm these communities? Is Government aware that these groups exist? If so, what is Government doing to ensure that these arms which are in wrong hands are retrieved?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the Government is aware and we are doing everything possible to address the situation. We have actually applied for funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning so that we can address the problem of insecurity in Western Province on its own. This requires resources.

Mr Speaker, we are aware of the Karavinas and I can promise this House that the Government will do everything possible to bring the perpetrators of this crime to book.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Situmbeko (Senanga): Mr Speaker, is this country, Western Province in particular, going to wait until the agreement is signed by the Government and the Government of Angola while the people of Western are continuously abducted, sexually abused and subjected to hard labour for which they receive nothing in return? Are we going to allow this country to remain silent and leave these people in the doldrums of being harassed by people who have run away from their country because they have never respected the peace in their country?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, our Government is actually working flat out to bring the situation in Western Province back to normal. The situation is quite critical and we are addressing it with the urgency it deserves. I can assure the hon. Member of Parliament that we are going to do everything possible to normalise the situation in Western Province.


83. Mr Patel (Lusaka Central) asked the Minister of Foreign Affairs when the NEPAD proposals would be released for debate by Parliament.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, the question is dealing with so many dimensions as the matter has already been dealt with and endorsed by the African Heads of State Summit held in Durban last month. It is, therefore, difficult to see how a matter such as this can be presented for debate in the House.

However, I realise that the intention of the question was to ask Government to provide more information on NEPAD. I am, therefore, pleased to provide a detailed response on what NEPAD is about.

Mr Speaker, the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD), formerly called the New African Initiative, was first adopted by the 37th Session of OAU, which was held in Lusaka last July, as a Programme of Action for achieving economic and developmental objectives of the African Union. As stated earlier, it was agreed on and endorsed by the African Heads of State Summit in Durban in July.

Mr Speaker, it is important to know that NEPAD is not an institution nor an organisation but a Programme of Action for Africa’s Union. It is important to note, in this respect, that Zambia was one of the first countries to ratify the Constitutive Act bringing into operation, the African Union.

NEPAD, Mr Speaker, is a holistic, integrated sustainable development initiative for the economic and social revival of Africa. It is an economic-centred recovery programme drawn by Africans and managed by Africans themselves. It is a pledge by African leaders to eradicate poverty and to place their countries, both individually and collectively, on a path of sustainable growth and development, thus, accelerating the integration of the continent into the global economy. It is also a comprehensive, integrated and sustainable development plan that addresses key issues of social, economic, environmental and political priorities of the continent in a coherent and balanced manner.

Mr Speaker, NEPAD was derived from the two regional initiatives, namely, the Millennium Partnership for African Recovery Programme (MAP) and OMEGA Plan. The MAP was the brainchild of the South African President, His Excellency Thabo Mbeki, arising from the African Renaissance. The OMEGA Plan for Africa was an initiative of the President of Senegal, His Excellency Abdoulaye Wade. The objective of the OMEGA Plan was to evaluate all the needs of Africa with a view to eliminating the fundamental disparities that exist between Africa and the developed world.

Mr Speaker, NEPAD, unlike other previous initiatives, has the support of the political leadership on the continent and is being spearheaded by African leaders themselves. Through this programme, African leaders are setting an agenda for the continent. The programme is based on national and regional priorities and development plans that must be prepared through a participatory process of the people of the continent. 

Mr Speaker, NEPAD is also based on previous African initiatives like Lagos Plan of Action, Abuja Treaty and the others. However, it is neither a duplication nor competitor of any other existing initiative. It is rather intended to build on what was done before. Regional economic communities and sub-regional economic groups are also considered pillars in the implementation of NEPAD Programme. 

Mr Speaker, good progress has been made to date in carrying out the mandate of the OAU Summit in Lusaka last, with regard to NEPAD. The NEPAD strategic plan and framework document has been brought before the appropriate sub-regional, continental and international institutions for endorsement and support and the management structures have been put in place to support the NEPAD process. NEPAD has been presented at several international fora. The support received so far has been overwhelming, the latest being the support of the CG Summit held in Lusaka last July as well as the G8 Meeting held in Canada in July, 2002. Significant interactions have also been undertaken with other co-operating partners, including the European Union, the Brettonwoods Agreement Institutions, United Nations, Non-G8 Co-operating Partners and SINO-African process, to achieve the desired linkages of NEPAD with other international regional initiatives.

Mr Speaker, Zambia, as a member of the AU, stands to benefit from NEPAD. The NEPAD programme of action gives an integrated plan to address fundamental and critical issues in the areas of infrastructure development, education, health, trade and investment. 

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is in the process of organising a national workshop aimed at informing and sensitising members of the public about NEPAD. The workshop is going to be sponsored by the Economic Commission of Africa and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. 

In conclusion, I wish to say that my ministry is ready to provide more information on NEPAD to Parliament, through the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs, if so requested. 

Finally, I wish to lay on the table the NEPAD document that provides very useful background information to NEPAD.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Dr Mwansa laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Patel: I would like to thank the hon. Minister for providing us information belatedly and after the fact. However, the question is: why was no Member of Parliament involved in the consensus building process before you tabled these proposals at the heads of states meetings? In addition, what consensus building took place with hon. Members of Parliament or the general public before you rushed to submit and accept these proposals?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we have pledged to involve Parliament in matters of this nature in future. However, we can just apologise for the omission that we made. However, we are now prepared to engage Parliament at every turn before we embark on very serious committal of our Government in foreign policy.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon Opposition Members: Very innocent.

Mr Sichinga: Given the very important nature of the agreements and treaties that the Government enters, and since the work of all the Committees has already been completed, could the hon. Minister indicate to this house whether he will propose to this House what specific steps they want the Zambian Government to take. We would also like to know whether he will bring issues to this House so that we can start the consensus building process. This will ensure that the hon. Members that are here will have an input into whatever they are doing. Could he confirm that he will come back to the House with that information so that we can discuss this matter?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we did indicate that we are planning a workshop that will be sponsored by this ECA and Ministry of Finance and National Planning. We will invite as many hon. Members of Parliament as possible to that seminar. In future, we will be able to come to the House with ministerial statements to inform Parliament what we will be doing in this area. But, please, be assured that we are prepared to work with you at every turn and we also expect you to co-operate with us.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs what policy measures the Government is taking to ensure that our relationship in NEPAD is not the same old relationship that has existed between North and South; the same relationship that has existed economically between horse and rider?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we had indicated that NEPAD is an initiative of African leaders themselves. It is our document. It is home grown. It is not imposed by anybody else.

Mr Shumina: By yourselves.

Dr Mwansa: No, it is home grown. Our heads of states agreed upon it, so, it is not an imposition. Nevertheless, We have received tremendous support from the international community and we want to build on that support. It is our document. It is our own initiative.

Mr Patel: It is your document.

Dr Mwansa: It is Africa’s document and, therefore, it is Zambia’s document.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Kapita (Mwinilunga West): Can the hon. Minister confirm what we have been hearing in the press that the Zambian Government has already decided to back the Libyan President as head of NEPAD. If that is the truth, what is the rationale? How did you come up with that decision?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, no information has reached our offices suggesting what the hon. Member is talking about. Really, it has not come to our attention.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muleya (Choma): When the hon. Minister says that the issues before NEPAD do not need to be debated, is he not actually making the sovereignty of Zambia subject to other countries. In fact, when you discuss matters of economic co-operation and integration with other nations, you are actually tying this country to those programmes. My question is whether these programmes will not affect the sovereignty of this country. 

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the question of sovereignty does not arise because there were so many conferences and workshops held on NEPAD and we participated fully at every turn. As the executive, we have the mandate to do that. What will be debated are the programmes of NEPAD and we will be consulting on these at every turn.

I thank you, sir.

Mr Speaker: The Chair wishes to guide the House. I believe I heard the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs say that he was submitting information to the committee dealing with security in foreign affairs for their assessment. What that means is that the report of the committee containing that information will, in fact, be debated in this House.

So, the House may wish to bear that in mind. Hon. Members, maybe, will be able to deal with this issue as soon as that report is ready. The committee is alerted that that opportunity does exist.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, much obliged. I would like the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs to confirm that, in fact, the document will be brought here for debate because: 

(1)    this NEPAD document is being floated as a Zambian document; and

(2)    we do not want, as Members of Parliament, a situation as in the case of the Poverty Reduction Strategic Plan (PRSP) which was rushed out of Zambia and brought back approved without being presented to Parliament. So, I would like the hon. Minister to give us an assurance that the document brought here is neither African nor Zambian …

Mr Speaker: You are debating your question. Two questions have been raised. So, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs may choose one.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we can confirm within our pledged emphasis on accountability, transparency, zero-tolerance to corruption and good governance that we will bring all documents as required.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs said that Zambia was the first country to ratify the NEPAD Programme. Why is it that we have been very slow, as a country, in ratifying other protocols? We know, very well, that there are 22 protocols, including the establishment of the Pan-African Parliament, which this Government has not ratified.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, what I said was that Zambia was one of the first countries and not that it was the first. In any case, at that time, Zambia was the Chair of the OAU, therefore, we had to set an example to others.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Are you sitting in the right place?

Mr Mukwakwa: Yes, Sir. 


Mr Mukwakwa: From the answers given by the newly appointed Minister of Foreign Affairs, …


Mr Mukwakwa: … and following the ‘New Deal’s ideas of transparency, can he confirm that from now onwards, they will bring to the House international agreements before they are signed so that the House is not misled as in the past, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Separation of powers!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, according to our Constitution, the mandate to sign agreements lies with the Executive branch of Government. Unless the Constitution is amended, we cannot do that.


Dr Mwansa: That is the law is at the moment. 

I thank you, Sir.


84. Captain Moono asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the Mwembeshi Military Camp would be provided with the following:

(i)    electricity;
(ii)    a primary school; and
(iii)    an ambulance

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, provision of electricity to Mwembeshi is a capital project. A number of police camps, generally, have no electricity and this project and many others will be undertaken once capital funds are made available.

On the question of the school, it is the Ministry of Education, which is mandated with the construction and putting up of schools whether in police camps or villages. Our ministry is going to work hand in hand with the Ministry of Education so that they speed up the process of putting up a school in Mwembeshi.

As for the ambulance, Sir, it is a question of capital funding. In our budget for this year, there was no budgetary provision for transport for the Police Service. We hope and trust that in the coming year, something will be done. Once that is done, an ambulance will be, definitely, purchased for Mwembeshi.

I thank you Sir.

Captain Moono: Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that a lot of children, especially those who are in Grade 1,have been involved in road accidents due to travelling long distances at a tender age. Most wives of the paramilitary officers either give birth on the way or in their own homes due to lack of ambulances to take them to the nearest hospital.

Mr Speaker: Without doing any work for the Executive, I believe I heard the hon. Minister of Home Affairs state that the provision of schools was the responsibility of the Ministry of Education and I think the House also heard that.

The Chair wishes to advise the hon. Member for Chilanga to get in touch with the community in Mwembeshi and urge them to request for a school and also with the Minister of Education to see if he can provide a school, depending on the population of the school-going age in that community. That is the guidance the Chair can give.

Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, I want to commend the Deputy Minister of Home Affairs. He has been able to give answers without making reference to notes. Keep it up my brother.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalumiana: This is a specific question, requiring a specific answer. I am wondering why the hon. Minister is giving promissory answers. I think the people out there do not want promissory answers just like they did not want promissory notes.

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Kalumiana: Hold your fire. I am coming to the question. Can we take it that you have no plans for these projects this year?

Mr Speaker: I believe it is necessary to continue guiding, at least, for the rest of this year. This House has a committee known as Government Assurances Committee. These promises being made by the Government are being recorded and at some point, the Executive will be asked why they have not fulfilled the promises that have been made before the people’s representative in this House. So, they will pick it up. No matter how long it takes, they will pick it up until these promises are fulfilled. But, if the hon. Minister of Home Affairs wishes to re-assure this House, he is free to do so.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I made it clear in my first answer that these matters are actually receiving active attention. As the hon. Member is aware, in this year’s budget, there have not been any budgetary provisions for the purchase of capital items like motor vehicles for the police. I am hopeful that in future, we are going to have some funding so that we can procure transport and, indeed, some ambulances for camps and the training school.

I thank you, Sir.



Mr Samukonga (Chawama): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Select Committee to Scrutinise the Appointment of Dr Caleb Mailoni Fundanga as Bank of Zambia Governor for the First Session of the Ninth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on Friday, 26th July, 2002.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Mr Mulanda (Chifubu): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, your Parliamentary Select Committee was appointed on the 11th of July, 2002, pursuant to the provisions of Section 10 (1) and (2) of the Bank of Zambia Act Chapter 360 of the Laws of Zambia, as amended by Act 43 of 1996 which states, and I quote:

‘Subject to Section 15, the President may appoint, for a period not exceeding five (5) years, a person with recognised qualifications and experience in financial and economic matters to be Governor of the Bank and the President may re-appoint the Governor upon the expiry of the Governor’s term of office. An appointment under sub-section (1) shall be subject to ratification by the National Assembly.’

The terms of reference of your Committee were to scrutinise the appointment of Dr. Caleb M. Fundanga as Governor of the Bank of Zambia. Sir, in carrying out their mandate, your Committee sought the input and views of various State security agencies. These were the Office of the President (Special Division), the Anti-Corruption Commission, the Zambia Police Service and the Drug Enforcement Commission.

Your Committee also sought views from professional institutions as regards the qualifications, experience, conduct and character of the appointee. These were the National Economic Advisory Council, the Economics Association of Zambia, the Zambia Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry and the Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants. Your Committee also considered submissions from the hon. Deputy Minister, State House, and the appointee himself.

The submissions received from these stakeholder institutions and the appointee helped your Committee not only to understand the requirements of the office of the Bank of Zambia Governor, but also the suitability of the appointed candidate. Sir, your Committee notes with satisfaction that the appointee has been cleared of any criminal, corrupt or drug related cases by the relevant Government security wings.

Mr Speaker, Dr. Fundanga is a man who has exhibited high integrity, wide academic experience and abundant exposure to understand his new role and to build upon the development of central banking and monetary policy management. This can be attested to by his practical experience in the field of economics at home and abroad, including his former positions as Permanent Secretary, economics lecturer, among other things, as well as his relevant African development banking experience.

Sir, his record, both at home and outside this country, shows that he has the competence and motivation necessary for the Bank of Zambia’s effective management of the Zambian economy. He has experience in economics and relevant postgraduate education required for the position.

Sir, this House may also wish to recall that in recent years, there has been extensive brain drain, in this country, of young and upcoming Zambians, who are products of our own university and other learning institutions. Sir, by ratifying this appointment, this House will join this nation in welcoming every opportunity to reverse the brain drain syndrome that is a source of worry to our young and developing economy.

Sir, the hon. Members of Parliament may also wish to note that Dr Fundanga is among the most qualified persons holding similar positions in the SADC region. Sir, your committee would like to assure the hon. Members of Parliament that by ratifying the appointment of Dr. Fundanga, they are contributing to welcoming a Governor of the Bank of Zambia, whose experience, qualifications and drive will contribute to the challenges of rehabilitating the Zambian economy.

Mr Speaker, before I conclude, I wish to thank the hon. Members of your committee, who worked tirelessly throughout the course of the proceedings, for their great contributions, co-operation and dedication to the work of the committee.

I also wish to express my gratitude to the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the valuable advice and services rendered to your committee. I also extend my sincere thanks to the witnesses who appeared before your committee for their valuable information.

Lastly, Sir, I wish to thank you for nominating Members of the Select Committee to consider the appointment of Dr. Caleb Fundanga as the Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

Sir, it is, now, my honour and privilege to present your committee’s report with the sincere hope that the recommendation to ratify Dr. Caleb Mailoni Fundanga will receive the support of this House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak, now, or later?

Mr Mulanda: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding this important motion, so ably moved by Hon. Samukonga, chairman of the committee, allow me to express and extend my profound thanks and gratitude to you, Sir, the Clerk of the National Assembly and his staff for the support and guidance that was provided to your Select Committee during their deliberations.

Sir, I would also like to extend my gratitude to the chairman for the able manner in which he led the deliberations of your committee. Allow me, Sir, to also extend my gratitude to the Members of your committee who, with the best interest of the nation at heart, deliberated in a spirit of togetherness which enabled your committee to arrive at these recommendations.

Sir, I would be failing in my duty if I did not pay special tribute to all the witnesses who appeared before your committee for their contributions to this noble cause.

Sir, as indicated earlier, the speech of the chairman was very elaborate and, therefore, my task is very simple. Your committee, Sir, takes cognizance of the important role the Central Bank plays in national development. It, therefore, follows that a candidate for the position of Governor of the Bank of Zambia should not only be of high integrity, but also highly educated and experienced.

Sir, the role of the Bank of Zambia cannot be over emphasised as it formulates and supervises monetary policies that ensure maintenance of price and financial stability so as to promote economic development in the country. The Bank of Zambia acts as advisor to the Government on matters relating to economic and monetary management, and supervises and regulates the activities of commercial banks and other financial institutions.

In order to realise this very important function, we need a person with a strong and sound economic and management background which, undoubtedly, has been associated with Dr Fundanga as presented by all the witnesses.

Mr Speaker, almost all the witnesses attested to the fact that the nominee has exhibited a high degree of independent thought and there is no doubt that he can help formulate sound monetary policy. Sir, the nominee showed unquestionable ability to deal with the problem of excessive Government borrowing which is one of the major causes of inflation. This noble task requires the support and involvement of all stakeholders. The nominee showed great capacity to reduce and improve interest rates and exchange rate fluctuations. There is need, to encourage our people to produce and consume more of our own Zambian products to help stabilise the exchange rate and thereby improve production of local products.

Sir, it is worth noting that, at the time of his appointment, Dr Fundanga was in a high paying job at the African Development Bank and instead chose to come back home. This is a sacrifice reminiscent of a high degree of commitment to a national cause.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, your Committee are convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that Dr Caleb Mailoni Fundanga has met all the necessary requirements for the position and therefore, strongly urge this House to ratify his appointment as Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion on the Floor of the appointment of Dr Caleb Fundanga as Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I know Dr Fundanga as a Zambian who has stood the test of time and has stood for his country. I think you remember 1986 when IMF introduced its conditions to Zambia. There was a group of intellectuals who stood and opposed the measures that would have brought catastrophic effects to the economy and well being of Zambia. At that time, there were other people who thought the IMF’s coming would improve the economy. Looking at the state we are in with the IMF and World Bank, we can see for ourselves why Dr Caleb Fundanga had opposed.

We were proud. I remember him in 1986.I was a second year economics student then. He was the Head of the Economics Department of the University of Zambia at the time. They stood and argued their case and this even reached the attention of the Head of State. It was because of their arguments, that the Government reversed the path they had taken and asked Dr Fundanga and his intellectual friends to lead the trend. You may remember that we were even able to limit the amount Government could remit to service the debt, which we owed. Sir, because of that, we were able to go on a path which enabled us to provide social and other services to our nation.

Mr Speaker, I am talking about someone who is academically sound, experienced and mature. Further, he is someone who is highly qualified for the job of Bank of Zambia Governor. Sir, this job does not need an opportunist, someone who would sell the country for the benefit of just being in the job or attaining certain economic achievements. We are talking about someone who has got the country at heart. 

Therefore, I think that with the calibre of Dr Caleb Fundanga, we will have somebody who will advise the Government properly so that there can be fiscal discipline.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nguni (Chama): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to support the ratification of Dr Caleb Fundanga. 

Dr Fundanga inspired a lot of us young people when we were graduating because of the manner in which he displayed the educational wisdom he acquired from the University of Zambia. Dr Fundanga should stand by his initial principles of being independent. He managed to stand firm and advised the then UNIP Government to change their call over the IMF decision. 

Therefore, my appeal today, as one of those from UNIP, is that he should stand by his principles. The education he has acquired, because of the sound educational policies of UNIP Government, should not go to waste. We all know that although the Head of State appointed him, he can say no to bad policies. This country may, for the first time have a highly educated person as a Bank of Zambia Governor. So, do not let us down.

This country needs people that are bold and exposed. We have reached a dead end. We need a Governor who can say no to printing of money that has no financial bearing. We would like a Bank of Zambia Governor who can tell bank mangers that they will be no development if banks tie their monies with rubber bands. They must let people access loans so that they plough them into industry. We need a Bank of Zambia Governor that will control foreign exchange. What crime has this country committed? Whereas our neighbouring countries can plan their international investments, we cannot. For a long time we have seen a situation where a person from Zimbabwe brings $1,000 into Zambia, which becomes several millions of kwacha when converted. Yet, a local person in this country cannot even access K5 million a loan.

Therefore, we need a Bank of Zambia Governor who is going to say no to any situations that promote the interests of foreigners. For a very long time we have actually been isolated. We want a Bank of Zambia Governor who will go to rural areas with his own network to look at possible potentials to develop this country.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I would like to be associated with Dr Fundanga’s education, which was provided to him by UNIP, please make use of it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa (Kabushi): I thank you, Mr Speaker, for according me this opportunity to support the ratification of Dr Caleb Fundanga.

Sir, I will try to be as short as possible …


Mr Nzowa: I would like to thank the Committee that has brought this wonderful report and in supporting this motion, I would like to appeal to our Bank of Zambia Governor, who I am told has already taken up the seat before we ratified him. 

We want a Bank of Zambia Governor, like my friends have already alluded to, who is going to exercise maximum maturity, stand by his principles. I am saying this because the banking sector has been rocked and besieged with crooks who can easily siphon our money and liquidate banks and eventually be let off. We do not want that. We want him to work on this so that the Zambian people are protected. A lot of depositors, most of them ordinary workers, have lost their meagre savings in banks because of such crooks.

I would like to see a bank governor who is going to be so strict and is not going to allow people to siphon stolen money to off-shore accounts. I only hope he is not going to be used as a conduit to syphon public funds to offshore accounts. I am saying this because in our recent past we have been debating things, which relate to banks and the Bank of Zambia itself. Therefore, we want a man with such standing and qualification that meet all the criteria that are needed for that job. But, we only hope that he was not appointed with hidden or ill intentions of being used …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: … to steal public money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: We want him to stand by his principles and be able to stop all would …


Mr Nzowa: I like that!


Mr Nzowa: … all would be  kabolalas.


Mr Nzowa: I mean thieves, Sir.


Mr Nzowa: I thank you.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to support this motion of appointing Dr Fundanga as Governor of Bank of Zambia. 

I have personally known Dr Fundanga for over twenty years now. He was my Chairman of the Economic Association of Zambia, at a time when he was part of a management team negotiating with the unions, therefore, we had it a bit easy. In fact he looked more sympathetic to the union and for the union cause than other people, who were higher than he in the Government, did. I only hope he will take this quality with him to the Bank of Zambia so that industrial relations at that very vital institution are not spoilt. 

I have noted of late, that there have been clashes between management and union officials. I hope Dr Fundanga will use his expertise to bring about the much needed industrial harmony in order to ensure high productivity. 

I would also like Dr Fundanga and others to see if they can look at the Banking and Financial Services Act, some of whose provisions are now long overdue for amendment. I would like him to see to it that something is done about this Act, because it is depriving many people of what they are supposed to have as citizens of Zambia.

Having said that, Mr Speaker, I simply sit and say, I fully support this motion to have Dr Fundanga appointed. However, in future, to avoid unnecessary acrimony and talking, we would like a situation whereby a person is subjected to ratification by Parliament before he/she takes up a position. That way, Parliament will not appear to be a rubber stamp of decisions that have already been made. 

I support the motion with those reservations.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Siakalima (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, I equally stand to support this motion for the appointment of Dr Fundanga. 

Mr Speaker, he is a person I have known and as an academic, I fully support him. But, I am a bit worried because even when we are highly educated, the arm of Government puts unnecessary pressure on people who are principled. 

The previous Governor, Dr Jacob Mwanza, who is now a Chancellor of the University of Zambia, has the same qualifications as Dr Fundanga. But, he ran into a disaster because of the way the arm of Government puts pressure on these highly and rarely skilled men and women of this country.

My message to you, Government, is that, you are the same people, and that is what worries me most, who put unnecessary pressure, on these men and women who have been to school. That is why people no longer respect people who have been to school because they think that as an educated person you must live beyond what a person can or what a Government minister can tell you. 

Let me assure you hon. Ministers and your Government, Dr Fundanga is a principled man and if you put unnecessary pressure on him, to your shame, he will resign. And, when he resigns, to your chagrin, you will have only yourselves to blame. Never again, Mr Speaker, should these people on your right, put unnecessary pressure on a governor of the Bank of Zambia. Give him the latitude to practice what he has learnt, give him the latitude to do as the country requires of him to do. There is too much money laundering in this country and the only person who can curb that is a governor with such qualifications. 

Please, I beg you to never put unnecessary pressure on educated people like Dr Fundanga again.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I rise to contribute to this very important debate on the report on the ratification of Dr Caleb M. Fundanga. I would like to pick up on a strand on which a few of the hon. Members such as Hon. Nzowa have mentioned regarding the ratification process.

It is a pity, Mr Speaker, that this Government which professes so much to be a government of laws rather than of men is dealing with the ratification issue from a point of view of looking at the law as being something which should only be there at their convenience. 

The Committee rightly begins by pointing out that ratification of a person to this office is subject to Section 10 (1) and (2) of the Bank of Zambia Act, which reads:

‘Subject to Section 15, the President may appoint, for a period not exceeding five years, a person with recognised professional qualifications and experience in financial and economic matters to be Governor of the Bank and the President may re-appoint the Governor upon the expiry of the Governor’s term of office.

An appointment under subsection (1) shall be subject to ratification by the National Assembly.’

This presupposes that the person who is going to be appointed will not take up the position actively until and unless, ratified by this House. For somebody to start working before he has been ratified is to make a mockery of the process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: It is merely asking us to rubber stamp.

The Government, which professes to be a Government of laws, knows very well that there was a need to ratify and wait, because when one looks at Page 6 of the Committee’s report, the submissions from State House recognise this, in item No. 15 which reads:

‘The hon. Deputy Minister, State House, submitted that the appointee was appointed as Bank of Zambia Governor on the 28th of March, 2002 and took up the appointment immediately. The Deputy Minister added that the post of Governor of the Bank of Zambia was a very senior and sensitive position and that practice was that it could not be left vacant’.

The Deputy Minister added that the post of Governor of the Bank was a very senior and sensitive position and that practice was that it could not be left vacant. But we are here not concerned with practice. We are concerned with what the law is, and the law and procedure are clearly spelt out in Sections 10 and 11.

 Sir, it is not correct for the Government to state that there are crucial things that need to be done, which cannot wait for the appointment to be done properly, because Section 8(3) of the Bank of Zambia Act provides for a Deputy Governor and it provides for a Deputy Governor in these terms:

It reads, Sir:

‘The Deputy Governor shall assist the Governor in the performance of his duties and shall whenever the Governor is unable to perform the functions of his office perform such functions’.

Sir, in other words, it was possible for the Deputy Bank Governor to perform the functions of the Governor pending this House going through the process of ratification. In other words, not to render us a rubberstamp. I do not know about the rest of the Members, but  I refuse to be a rubberstamp.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: I certainly feel that I should not be turned into a rubberstamp.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, there is also Section 10, sub-section 1(b) of the same Act which reads as follows:

‘The Board shall consist of the following Directors, (a) The Governor, who shall be Chairman of the Board and (b) the Deputy Governor who shall be the Vice Chairman of the Board’.

So, even in terms of the Board, there is provision for somebody who will be able to chair in the absence of the Governor. And even if there was no Deputy Governor, Section 13(6) goes even further and provides that one of the Directors can chair the Board meetings. So, in other words, there was no need to have a situation where somebody even starts getting salary advances as is shown on page 9 of the Committee’s Report, which says that there had been salary advances given to the appointee for him to live on.

Mr Speaker, what would happen if there was no ratification by this House?

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear! Ask them.

Mr Sikota: We would have placed ourselves in a situation where state finances would have been paid to somebody who did not get the office. That surely should not be the way a Government of laws behaves and operates.

Mr Speaker, I, therefore, feel very strongly that in future, all appointees who are subject to ratification should not take up their positions until and unless ratified.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: And, any other positions which under our Constitution or laws require for ratification should immediately be brought to this House for us to decide whether or not those people should exercise those functions and be in that office.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear! Winango azalila.

Mr Sikota: Having said that, Sir, I now turn to the actual nominee himself. The only saving grace for the Government in this particular issue is that they have chosen a man of great integrity, a person who is obviously qualified for the position.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Were it not been for the undoubted skill of Dr Caleb Fundanga, I would have, on principle, decided to oppose his ratification. However, his overwhelming capabilities and qualifications mitigate on behalf of the Government and I stand to support him but wish that my earlier remarks are noted and acted upon.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion. I know Dr Caleb Fundanga very well. I am very happy because he will be the type of a Governor who will address some of my misgivings, as a banker, about Bank of Zambia. There was a time when we were ratifying the appointment of a Governor and the whole House agreed. I was the only one who said no because the Bank of Zambia, which is a Banker to the Government, was not going about its job of controlling commercial banks.

Mr Speaker, there is a lot that needs to be done by Dr Fundanga. The first is to control this Government to ensure that it does not over-borrow at the Bank of Zambia to finance projects that are neither here nor there.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, this kind of borrowing has caused such high inflation in our economy that our currency is the cheapest on the world market. Sir, because of the Treasury Bills for which this Government is borrowing from Monday to Friday, we need a Bank of Zambia Governor who should control the Government so that the interest rates can lower. As farmers in this country, we are endowed with good soils. Therefore, our people should be able to access banks at commercial level and begin to borrow so that we can feed ourselves and export the excess. But, because the Central Bank has concentrated, in the MMD time, on lending to the Government instead of lending to the people of this country, by lowering interest rates, at one time we had interest rates at 80 per cent. Now they are at over 40 per cent. 

Mr Speaker, we are the only economy in the world where interest rates are that high. We have another system called Kaloba which is licensed by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.


Mr Sibetta: Imagine private money lending called Kaloba is licensed by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning...


Mr Sibetta: You can get a licence to lend money to your friends in the townships. These people are lending each other money at interest rates that are lower than the interest rates that the Bank of Zambia is superintending through the commercial banks.

Mr Speaker, we need a man like Dr Fundanga to reverse this trend. We have land, people and money which you print, which is also our money, and we should have access to borrowing it to improve the economy of this country. But if you reserve borrowing only to yourselves for your overseas trips and what have you...

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Sibetta: ...then the economy is going down. 

Sir, Secondly, I am looking to Dr Fundanga to intervene on behalf of the employees of commercial banks that have gone under and have been taken over by the Bank of Zambia. 

There is a process in Bank of Zambia of lending staff money to buy some of the houses and assets belonging to the commercial banks. Employees of these commercial banks are not paid. Bank of Zambia, in this category, is the worst administrator we have ever come across where money cannot quickly be released to pay off people who worked for it.

Mr Speaker, Dr Fundanga should not allow assets owned by shareholders, or some of these directors to externalise money in the same way Bank of Zambia externalised U$90 million to the Bahamas. It was reported on the Floor of this House four years ago. We debated it but this Government ignored it. Only when my uncle, the Hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Mr Sikatana, resurfaced …


Mr Sibetta: … under the New Deal, did you highlight it. This is an issue, which this Parliament has been talking about. 

Mr Speaker, Bank of Zambia has sometimes re-opened banks that have been closed to allow them to receive money, sometimes, from the State from undefined sources. It happened recently. The bank then closed after banking the money. Now, this is very bad.

So, we are looking to Dr Fundanga to do the job properly. He must be our friend on this side, the Opposition, as watchdogs.


Mr Sibetta: Not your friend.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr Sibetta: Finally, Sir, I would be failing in my responsibilities if I do not appeal to Dr Fundanga to ensure that there is a special borrowing rate for agriculture. He should immediately move in and ensure that there are concession rates for farmers so that they can borrow and plant more food for this country.

Mr Speaker, I also would like to congratulate Bank of Zambia for starting to train their own staff. I have looked at the Bank of Zambia Report that was laid on the Table. They have a programme of training members of staff to get professional or university qualifications or master’s degrees and PHDs. In future, when we need a replacement for somebody like Dr Fundanga, we should follow the trend in many older economies where they pick from within the establishment.

Mr Speaker, at Bank of Zambia, we have PHD holders like Dr Fundanga. As we go on, should Dr Fundanga move to become an hon. Minister, like my brother Dr Kalombo Mwansa who has just been brought in, such PHD holders should take over from him. This is because they would know the work he has initiated and there would be continuity. 

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: We, wholeheartedly, from Opposition, support this appointment. We know the man very well and we think he is going to do a good job and help this country.

With these few words, …


Mr Sibetta: … I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important motion. Before I can say one or two things about my friend, Dr Caleb Fundanga, I stand to be corrected by the Chair. The little I understand about this ratification is that the name will be proposed by the Head of State, and brought to the House to be ratified. If the House rejects it, the President may appoint the same name. If it happens for the first time, the President will appoint a name that will not come for ratification. What I am trying to say is, probably, a correction to my learned brother, hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, Mr Sikota, that unless certain clauses of the Constitution are changed …

Mr Sikota: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hachipuka: He is debating like a party cadre!

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala, in order to challenge laws that I have quoted without quoting any law?


Mr Speaker: If the hon. Member of Parliament for Mbala wants to challenge the legal quotations made over there, he should himself quote another law …


Mr Speaker: … and not what the hon. Member for Livingstone had quoted. 

May you continue, please, and take that point of order into account.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, given a chance, I would actually, quote. 


Mr Sichilima: This is common sense that we have read in books having come from an engineering background. This Law is there and I am sure the learned lawyer can even guide me properly.

Mr Speaker, coming back to the motion, I want to urge the new Bank of Zambia Governor, Dr Fundanga, to make his job easier by cleansing the Bank. He must quickly identify people that he is going to work with to make his life easier. It happens that since Dr Fundanga is highly qualified there may be a few in there that may not understand the way he works. The lazy ones might even be uncomfortable.

Sir, Having said that, I would be failing in my duties if I do not congratulate the Committee that has done so well through the appointment and brought all the information that one could have doubted.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to speak in support of this motion. However, I wish to approach it differently because I have known Dr Fundanga for quite some time. I would rather commiserate with him because the assignment given to him is a very serious one. It is an onerous one. It is an assignment that begs all forms of interference including interference from the Executive. I wish him well.

But, I feel that at some stage, since, now, we, in the Opposition, are in the majority, we must bring a Private Member’s Motion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: We need a Private Member’s Motion to protect the professionals. While I do not mind those of us professionals who have joined the political arena and can afford to be kicked around by anyone including the Executive, I do feel that professionals like Dr Fundanga and Dr Jacob Mwanza need to be protected.

The kind of legislation I am proposing or suggesting is one where when we ratify a professional, as Parliament, for his removal we must equally be involved.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: There have been several instances where a professional is appointed by the Executive, but without reason or any explanation to Parliament or indeed to anybody else including those that are affected, he/she is removed from office. What is the purpose of coming to Parliament to seek ratification for employing or confirming a man like Dr. Fundanga, if, when it suits the Executive, he is removed at a stroke of a pen without the approval of Parliament?

Hon. Opposition Members: Without consulting us.

Mr Hachipuka: I feel sorry for him because he has joined the professional conveyor belt where professionals are hired to provide advice to us, the politicians. And, when they give us advice that does not suit us or enable us externalise money to the Channel Islands, we remove them. It has now become a trend that every Head of State, Executive, and hon. Minister who comes in brings his friends and relatives into office. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: So, I commiserate with him. I just hope and pray that he will be strong enough to resist the pressure of doing wrong things. Most often, the choice between the family and the job, in a shrinking economy like ours, is what has led many people to do wrong things or to follow instructions that are not right.

I wish to support this motion and to wish Dr. Fundanga the best. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion. 

Mr Speaker, I met Dr. Fundanga in 1985 in the Economics Association of Zambia and  two years later in the Zambia Chambers of Commerce and Industry, where, you all know, I was very active. Dr. Fundanga, in the middle of 1980, was one of those brains that put Zambia first. Others may want to say Zambia first now. Dr. Fundanga’s group, which included the late Mr L. Chivuno and several others including myself, was part of the economic strategy that was for Zambia first. If for some reason, the Executive, by appointing Dr. Fundanga, believe they will manipulate him, they are in for a rude shock. He is a principled person who knows his subject as much as all of us here know the subject of debate, with the exception of those who are making running commentaries as they do not understand the seriousness of the appointment. I have no doubt Dr. Fundanga will withstand the pressure of doing wrong things, especially that this Parliament is balanced.  He will have people who will stand up for him on issues of principle. 

Mr Speaker, Dr. Fundanga became Permanent Secretary in August, 1987. He was the first Permanent Secretary, in my career, for whom you did not have to make a long-standing appointment to see. On a lighter note, I discovered that, in fact he was a bachelor during that period, and so he did not have a guaranteed lunch. I met him at a time when I was Chief Executive – a long standing Chief Executive, by the way. And we worked tirelessly to get things moving forward for this country. 

Mr Speaker, whereas others will speak for Dr. Fundanga because they were his students, I merely want to reiterate the caution given by Hon. Nzowa, Hon. Monde and Hon. Sakwiba who said …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, …

Hon. Government Members: Wind up.

Mr Matongo: … I was not about to wind up. I was in the middle of my debate.

Mr Speaker he was part of the team that went for Zambia first in terms of local production. There was Quench and Tip-Top. If those drinks were propelled forward at the time, Zambia would have had alternative drinks to what is on the market today. These were drinks we were making here, literally, without somebody else’s initiative. 

Mr Speaker, I feel very sad that people are happy to eat fruits like oranges and apples from Zimbabwe. Dr. Fundanga was part of the team that was determined to have these things produced here so that we could enjoy what we produce.

Mr Speaker, it is extremely important to note that by recognizing such people, the New Dealers are bringing in talent that will help them propel this country forward. 

On privatisation, Mr Speaker, I recall Mr Fundanga addressing the Zambia …

Hon. Opposition Member: Call him Dr.

Mr Matongo: Whether you call him Dr. or Mr, you add or reduce nothing from his head. He has got brains. That is the point. 

Mr Speaker, he was one of those people who believed business is not just about business. It is not simply a question of taking over somebody else’s bakery, but about getting your own bread-making machine. What did we see after 1991, when it became a trend to take over somebody else’s business, and what are we seeing today? We do hope that with people like Dr. Fundanga back on the scene, the quality of leadership in the New Deal will bring about actual development.  


Mr Matongo: Of course, you will make your comments there. Give me the opportunity to tell you that he is one of the last planners who worked on the last plan of this country. A plan which was discarded by the MMD Government of yesterday. Today, we are talking about what is wrong; Government being in business or business being in Government. Bring back the people who believe that Government should be in business and this country will move forward. Running institutions is not just about placing human beings in positions, but about placing people with the capacity to deliver in appropriate positions. Dr. Fundanga will deliver at the Bank of Zambia 

However, I want to appeal to him to bring to book those directors and everyone else responsible for the closure of Meridien, Union, Commerce and various other Banks that have been closed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: To be a director of a company is about responsibility and not luxury. If Dr. Fundanga does this, he will have the support of my colleagues in the opposition. We are not talking about punishment; we are talking about bringing decency to this country so that business can be decently. I should not have to know a Minister or Permanent Secretary to get things done. All I need to know is what I want to do and the systems should be there. Touch one and you are there.

Mr Speaker, I will not be derailed by somebody saying, ‘finally’, with you as the only exception, because I have a lot of other issues to talk about. I was elected by Pemba electorates to speak here and to people like Fundanga, that hop out there in Pemba - to tell him that all those shops that they closed because there is no development funding …

Mr Shumina: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, it is not my tradition to raise points of order on hon. friends who are from Southern Province because all their cattle are dead and they are very hungry.


Mr Shumina: Is the hon. Member, from Southern Province, where there is no food, in order to come to the Floor of this House and start telling us about the good old days when he was a young man in Kaunda’s parastatals with his friend Fundanga. Is he in order? I need your serious ruling on this Mr Speaker.


Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Pemba, please continue.


Mr Matongo: … Pemba was a good place to live in. We had food and cattle, but the ‘New Culture’ with their laissez faire policy wiped out our cattle, our agriculture went and today, we are begging for food. I do not know when His Honour, the Vice President last saw maize growing.

Pemba sent me here to support good things. The good thing is that men like Dr Fundanga, who will not be swayed by the Government, are going to bring about development to Pemba by bringing development funding. We want funding to be brought so that we can borrow and get our people up and running once again.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): Mr Speaker, I wish to contribute to the motion that is on the floor, that this House do adopt the report of the Select Committee for the First Session of the Ninth National Assembly, laid on the table of the House on the 26th of July, 2002, to scrutinize the appointment of Dr. Caleb Fundanga to serve as Governor of the Bank of Zambia.

 Mr Speaker, it goes without saying that the professional qualifications and the experiences that he has accumulated, both at the African Development Bank and elsewhere, make Dr Fundanga a suitable candidate to serve as the Bank of Zambia Governor.

Mr Speaker, it is of utmost importance that the House, do adopt the report of the Select Committee to appoint Dr Fundanga to serve as Governor of the Bank of Zambia. This will enhance the Ministry of Finance and National Planning’s efficiency and its implementation of the macro-economic strategies, which have been put in place. This will also assist in implementing all the projected macro-economic strategies for the present and future years through the professional and prudent performance of the Central Bank under the able management of Dr Fundanga. Sir, his capability and professional attainment will help the development of this nation. It is in this regard that I support the Motion.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion on the Floor as a Member of the Committee that looked at the appointment of Dr Caleb Fundanga, I wish to say that we were overwhelmed as members of the Committee at the positive attributes said about Dr Fundanga by the members of the various associations in the country that came to give us testimony on this appointment. 

As Zambians, we were so happy to realise that we still had credible people in Zambia that could be appointed to such high positions in the country.

We also looked critically at the role of ratification of this Parliament and deliberated at length and asked ourselves, what the real interpretation of that clause in the Constitution is. We were satisfied that the President, as an appointing authority …

Mr Kalifungwa: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: No, she has the right to debate!

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very important point of order. I do believe Hon. Masebo was a Member of the Committee, which was scrutinizing Dr Caleb Fundanga. Is she in order, to debate on the Floor of the House?

Mr Speaker: She is in support, not in opposition of the Motion and I believe she is supporting the Motion. Could you please continue?

Hon. Opposition Members: She is in support of the Motion!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I was supporting the Motion. I am just assisting our colleagues on some areas, which have been raised here …


Mrs Masebo: … the Committee did look, very seriously, at the aspect of ratification and we were satisfied that the period for ratification was short. We know that sometimes in the past, appointments made by the Executive have taken very long for Parliament to ratify. In this case, it was only four months. We thought that, maybe, the reason it was not brought quickly was that Parliament was in Session. However, we were quite satisfied with the period. Also, looking at the importance of the industry in question, we, again, felt that it was necessary for the appointed person to have started working even before the ratification.

Mr Speaker, looking at all the qualifications and everything else that was revealed to us as a Committee, we had no doubt in our minds that this is the right person for this challenging job and that Zambians can once again be proud that we are beginning as a country to ensure that every position is taken up by people who are qualified and are of high moral integrity and do possess everything that is essential for such appointments.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, I wish to debate a bit differently. I do not know Dr Fundanga.  I will only look at the papers that have been produced. Obviously, from the qualifications, I do not doubt the appointment. 

 In spite of not having been ratified, the period he has been allowed to act gave me an opportunity to know a little about him. His courage is what I have liked about him. At a time when Ministers were looking for dollars and wanted their salaries to de quoted in dollars, Dr Fundanga said all rates and charges should be in Kwacha. That means the hotels should also charge in Kwacha. I think that one day I will talk to him and tell him to check further. If his salary is quoted in dollars, it should be changed. If the salaries of the Permanent Secretaries and the Secretary to the Cabinet are quoted in dollars, they must also change to suit the Kwacha situation. 

I think that the man has decided to tackle the real problem, where Zambia had begun thinking in dollar terms and forgot the Kwacha, because everything was quoted in dollars. Therefore, I think that Dr Fundanga has made a good start and has shown that he is going to tackle the very difficult problem of stabilising the Kwacha/dollar exchange rates. On that score, I think Dr Fundanga qualifies to stay. I would also like to encourage him to check the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that he does not get paid in dollars so that we all get paid in Kwacha.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion that has been proposed and very ably moved by Hon. Samukonga. I also want to thank his seconder for the submissions he has made. In fact, I want to say to my hon. Colleague, the hon. Member for Chongwe that, in fact, because of the unanimity in the House, there is no need to defend the report at all because we are all agreed on the importance of moving forward.

Let me just say that I have known Dr Fundanga in a professional and personal capacity. 
He is one of those individuals, that you come across in your life, that stands out and strikes you, as a man who truly has the interests of his motherland at heart. In addition, Dr Fundanga is not one that is easily persuaded. You ought to have a convincing case to make him move in a particular direction.

I want to add my own voice to that as given by Hon. Matongo, the hon. Member for Pemba, that Dr Fundanga is someone that I share an ethos with, which is to tell our colleagues, especially in Government, that our country cannot move forward unless we have production. He is one of those economists we call supply side economists. I subscribe to that and I used to fight with the late Hon. Penza in this House, many a time, that part of the problem we have in our economy is a structural one.  I am very clear in my mind that I say this with the full agreement and endorsement of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. He will agree with me, because of his seasoned and long experience in this field, that part of the challenge that Dr Fundanga has to confront, right now, is the interest rates. Many banks at the moment have base rates of around plus 43 per cent. 

Mr Speaker, the inflation rate in the country, according to Government statistics, is at 18 per cent. This means that we have amounts that are in excess of 20 per cent over and above the current inflation rates. This has the effect of preventing the private sector from borrowing from the banking sector because part of the problem lies there. The Treasury Bills that the Government is asking the Central Bank to issue are now crowding out the private sector. Therefore, production cannot be effected.

I would like to urge our dear friend, Dr Fundanga, that even as we endorse him here, it is very, very important that he uses his experience and his independent mind to help us to get to a stage where Zambia starts to produce rather than rely on imported products from Zimbabwe or South Africa. I dare say, Mr Speaker, that one of the reasons why the Zimbabwean and South African economies can sustain themselves, the way they have, is the sanctions that were imposed on them, thereby, forcing those economies to develop an internal capacity.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: That is what Zambia needs today and is amongst the objectives as described in Section 2 (a) up to (f) of the Bank of Zambia Act which describes the functions of the Central Bank. Amongst them are those that are responsible for being a general advisor to Government on all economic matters. The Central Bank is responsible for the country’s economic policy, especially monetary policy. It is very important that as we endorse Dr Fundanga’s appointment, he should be a torch bearer to bring about stability and value back to the Kwacha. We are concerned, Mr Speaker, that every week the currency is losing approximately 12 to 16 per cent of its value.  This is unsustainable. The Central Bank is central to ensuring that we have some sanity in the financial market.

Let me say that because of that role, Dr Fundanga will be instrumental in changing the thinking at the Central Bank, especially in as far as it relates to its watchdog responsibility. Over the last few years, Mr Speaker, eleven banks have closed down in this country and the value of the depositors’ resources that have been lost in these closures, where the Central Bank is the supervisory authority, have exceeded billions and billions of Kwacha.  I do know that the Government has lost more than a hundred billion Kwacha in the closed banks.

 Mr Speaker, my colleagues here have also contributed on the issue of pressure being exerted on professionals, even on good ones like Dr Fundanga. I would like to adopt those contributions as my very own and just add on to this issue. Unless the watchdog responsibility is independently supervised at the Bank of Zambia, it will not be effective. Let me give one example. After one commercial bank was closed, the Governor was forced to draw money from other Government institutions such as NAPSA, Local Government Pension Authority and Workers’ Compensation and put it in the bank which had been closed. As my colleagues have already contributed and Hon. Sibetta made this point, Mr Speaker. 

Mr Sichilima: Kwafwana.


Mr Sichinga: Mr, Speaker, for those of us who were in this House, we advised the Government that that was a recipe for mismanagement and anarchy in the financial circles. Has it not been born out today? That is exactly what has happened. So, when we give this advice, we expect it to be taken. I would, also, like to ensure that my hon. colleague, Hon. Sichilima, from Mbala, understands economics since in Mbala they are too busy worrying about beans instead of money.


Mr Sichinga: I urge him to learn a few tips of economics. From Isoka East, we regard those people from Mbala, Mr Speaker, as slaves. So, it is about time he learnt to listen to his masters.


Mr Speaker: Order! There is no slave in this House. They are all hon. Members of Parliament elected by free people who are free born. May the hon. Member for Kafue, please, continue.


Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance, but really, I was referring to the old cases before he was elected to the House.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Ba kupweteka mwana!


Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I say this with all genuineness, hoping that we can see a different monetary direction. The issue of the IMF and World Bank coming here to dictate to us, as though we did not go to the same schools as they, is something that our friend, Dr Fundanga, can help us with. With a new Minister of Finance and National Planning and a new Governor, there is a little glimmer of hope that we might be able to break this. I want to say to my fellow Zambians, hon. Members gathered here, that there is no one who can claim monopoly on knowledge in areas, which are uncharted. Zambia needs to find its own place. We cannot keep on importing on borrowed money, which is given to us as balance of payment support, and hope to develop our country. Mr Speaker, this is why, currently, we are failing to maintain the value of the Kwacha.

Mr Speaker, I am saying this because the first responsibility of the Governor of the Central Bank is to maintain the value of the currency. Section (2) item (a), of the Bank of Zambia Act, gives him that responsibility. Therefore, as we ratify Dr Fundanga’s appointment, I would like to urge him and his team at the Central Bank to develop that independence that is, so, necessary to ensure that we have a counter balance to the spending side of Government. 

Sir, let me conclude by saying this; item (8) Sub item (2) of the Bank of Zambia Act says this and I quote:

‘The Governor shall be the Chief Executive Officer of the Bank and shall be responsible to the board for the execution of its policy and management of the bank.’

Sir, if you go to item (1) which talks about the board, it makes the Governor and his deputy the chairmen of the Bank as well. 

Mr Speaker, in this very House, with other hon. Members that were here before, we had criticised this. In fact, I notice, the last paragraph on page 9 in the Committee’s Report reads and I quote:

‘Your Committee asked the appointee whether he was comfortable with Section (13) Sub-section (1) (a) of the Bank of Zambia Act which provides for the Governor to be the bank’s Chief Executive and Chairman of the board.’

Mr Speaker, this is not a good provision. 

Mr Hachipuka: Never!

Mr Sichinga: I know it will be argued that this is practised elsewhere. That same practice, Mr Speaker, has not served us well here. I would, further, like to remind this House what happened at ZCCM where the Chief Executive and office of Chairman were enshrined in the same person. There was no supervision. You cannot have a watchdog responsibility in that particular manner because…

Mr Hachipuka: Correct! {mospagebreak}

Mr Sichinga: … who is the Governor reporting to in terms of the other sections that are provided for in the Act? He is really accountable to himself. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to say this and am sorry if I am boring anybody, but it is important for this House, which makes these laws, to understand the short -comings of the laws that we have made. We were here, in this House, debating the re-appointment of the Governor of the Bank of Zambia at that time, Dr Jacob Mwanza. We drew the attention of the Executive to this anomaly and called on the Executive to make amendments and bring them to this House. I would like say that given the numbers that we have in opposition, if the Government is unwilling to move on this matter, for the sake of safeguarding the depositors' resources, we, in the opposition, are going to move a Bill which will make sure that the anomaly is corrected.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, I would like to persuade the Executive to do what is right, recognising that our economy is a developing one. The prescription of a developed economy cannot be appropriate for one that is developing. Our institutions are not yet strong enough.

Mr Speaker, let me give another example. In the last Board of Directors of the Bank of Zambia, you had a Special Assistant to the President sitting on that board under the chairmanship of the Governor of the Bank. So, the question is, Mr Speaker, who is advising who? The Special Assistant to the President on Economics has the responsibility of advising the President on matters of economics. If he is also on the Board of Governors at the Bank of Zambia, how is he going to separate the responsibilities of the institution and the authorities? How is he going to do that?

Mr Situmbeko: Eat together!

Mr Sichinga: Mr Speaker, this is not a reflection on the candidate who we are considering. We hon. Members of this House, must create an environment that will safeguard not only the integrity of the individual that is occupying that position and his management, but also the interests of the depositors.

Mr Speaker, with those remarks, I would like to say that I fully endorse the nomination and the ratification of Dr Fundanga, a very well deserved citizen of this country and a committed son of the soil. I want to say, well done for appointing this individual. 
I think that we, in this House, can help him by amending the law to make him as effective as he should be.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to contribute on this motion.

Mr Speaker, I will speak on the weakness of the Bank of Zambia, which I hope Dr Fundanga will look at, vis a vis the supervision of commercial banks. As my hon. colleagues have said, over eleven banks have closed in this country. I put 80 per cent of the blame on the Bank of Zambia. I hope Dr Fundanga will look into this immediately he is ratified.

Mr Speaker, first of all, the regulations of the Bank of Zambia have been flouted by the Bank of Zambia itself and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. One of the regulations for somebody to run a commercial bank as executive or senior manager is that they must be qualified bankers. All the banks that have closed and Zambia National Commercial Bank, which has had only one qualified banker since its inception, have had no qualified bankers. I am talking about qualified bankers. I know that we are used to appointing people who have doctorates in philosophy as chief executives of banks. To us, such people are very qualified. This is exactly what the Bank of Zambia has been doing. The result has been that not even a single one of the banks that have closed, had a managing director or senior manager who was a qualified banker. Those who have ACCAs can accept this. I am talking about a professional banker. 

I know that Dr Fundanga is very qualified and I support him, but he is not a professional banker. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!

Mr Nyirenda: Sir, secondly, Bank of Zambia has got an Inspectorate Department, which inspected me several times when I was a bank manager. These inspectors have got very high qualifications in unrelated fields. You get an economist who has just come from the University of Zambia and put him in the Inspectorate Department to go and inspect a bank when he does not even know the definition of a cheque.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear. Hear!

Mr Nyirenda: When he comes there you literally teach him what to look for. At the end of the day, a nasty report is produced. Two weeks later, the bank closes down. I hope Dr Fundanga will look at his Inspectorate Department to ensure that seasoned bankers with banking qualifications supervise banks. Otherwise, we will have a situation where no Zambian can open a bank because Zambians will not trust a Zambian Bank. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: The reason has been inadequacies vis-á-vis the bank’s supervisory role. For instance, failure to ensure that a person who becomes a managing director of a bank has the necessary qualifications. To them as long as you are a doctor of medicine, you can also be a doctor of a bank. 


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr L. L. Phiri: Hammer!

Mr Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, when we witnessed the first closures, depositors called on the Bank of Zambia and Ministry of Finance - the latter has a representative who sits on the Board of Bank of Zambia- to introduce a Deposit Insurance Scheme so that depositors could be protected when a bank closed. What did the Bank of Zambia come up with? They raised the requirement to start a bank to K2 billion thinking that K2 billion, as capital, would protect depositors.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Nyirenda: The result has been that eleven banks have gone under.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: As if that is not enough, in order for them to raise money, the Bank of Zambia has raised the deposit rate to about K2 billion and put up very unusual requirements for commercial banks. At the moment, if you may wish to know, hon. Members of Parliament, over twenty per cent of bank deposits has got to be put in regulated accounts or statutory deposits or special deposits or treasury bills with the Bank of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Nyirenda: The reason they give is protection of depositors when, in actual fact, they want banks to put more money in treasury bills so that they can pay salary increases, which are not productive at all. Sir, a lot of depositors have lost their money, as my friends have already said. The reason is that instead of the Bank of Zambia scrutinising who runs commercial banks, their interest is how much money they should get from the commercial bank and so on.

Mr Situmbeko: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, I would also want Dr Fundanga to look at the Act which they are about to introduce which will regulate non-banking financial institutions. They should look at the qualifications of the people who run banks. In the banking industry, you can open a bank literally without any ngwee because your job is to receive money from those who have and lend to you. Therefore, you do not necessarily need your own capital. All you need is to have qualified people to run these institutions. I hope he will protect Zambians who would like to help other people through non-banking financial institutions by bringing an Act that is reasonable. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: I hope that Dr Fundanga will look into that issue as soon as he is ratified.

Lastly, Mr Speaker, …

Mr L. L. Phiri: Iyai continue!

Mr Nyirenda: … I want to mention that in this country, the Bank of Zambia and Ministry of Finance have not recognised banking as a professional qualification. This has resulted in the problems I have alluded to. I will give you a good example of ACCA that is covered by an Act of Parliament. For somebody to do any professional jobs, he must have ACCA. People have tried to lobby, through the Government and Bank of Zambia, to attain the Chartered Institute of Bankers qualification that, for your own information, is an extremely high qualification. It is the only professional qualification recognised in the banking industry. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Tell them!

Mr Nyirenda: But they have forgotten this. Out of eleven banks, not even a single manager is qualified. Their own bank, Zambia National Commercial Bank, has never seen a qualified banker other than the late Mwila. At the Bank of Zambia, the only qualified banker who was there was the late General Manager Mr Mwape who died in a plane crash with our national football team. He was the only qualified banker who held a senior position as general manager.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: Now, I want to request the current Governor …

Mr L. L. Phiri: New Deal!

Mr Nyirenda: … to ensure that there is an Act to protect professional bankers so that for you to run a bank, not to own it - do not misquote me as having said ‘owning’, because anyone, even a villager like these traders who own the banks which have closed, can own banks-…


Mr L. L. Phiri: Like Mbala mafia!


Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nyirenda: …to run a bank you must be a chartered banker like myself.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Nyirenda: Mr Speaker, as long as we have philosophers and medical doctors running banks, we will not go anywhere even if we have the likes of Dr Fundanga.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Captain Moono (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, I do not know Dr Fundanga, but from what has been said, I believe he is a man who deserves my support to occupy such a high office.

I am impressed with the activities Dr Fundanga has been involved in, in the banking sector, since he started operating four months ago. For instance, today, I am told the kwacha has appreciated by K50.00. I hope this is not just to get our endorsement.


Captain Moono: I hope it is not artificial. Our kwacha, really, needs to be stabilised. We have to plan with the kwacha. People prefer to use foreign currency to trade in Zambia because the kwacha has become slippery and unpredictable. We need to make a concerted effort to reverse this trend. I hope that Dr Fundanga will be able to develop confidence in our currency.

Mr Speaker, I am told some people in the banking sector doubt whether we shall be able to achieve our 13 per cent inflation reduction this year. Indeed, this is a challenge, especially to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, to co-operate with the Bank of Zambia and ensure that it is run professionally.

I also want to endorse what other hon. Members of Parliament have said. The lending rates of banks are so high that these days banks have stopped performing their original role of lending and making a profit. Instead, they all just concentrate on buying Treasury Bills, in short, ‘TB’ which are equivalent to tuberculosis.


Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Captain Moono: Mr Speaker, I, now, have confidence that the Bank of Zambia will be run in a professional manner because, as we have heard, it has a supervisory role over all other banks. If the Bank of Zambia had performed its functions professionally, we would not have the problem we have in Zambia today of money being externalised or money flying out at night. All these things would not have happened. Therefore, I am begging the Minister of Finance and National Planning to instill in us a bit of confidence. He is on record as having threatened to resign if he does not achieve his targets. My humble message to him is that we shall support him because he means well for this nation.

I  thank you, Sir.

Major General Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Motion. Dr Fundanga is a very qualified person and I have no doubt that he will carry out his duties to the best of his ability.

Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia want development. When we talk about development, we need to put experienced people in key positions such as this one. The people in the rural areas are not interested in talk, but in seeing what type of development is taking place everywhere.

Mr Speaker, when we talk about development, we must go back to rural areas and look at what type of roads we have. I will give examples of the roads from Kaoma to Lukulu, from Lukulu to Zambezi, Chavuma to Zambezi...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major General Zulu: Mr Speaker, the roads from Nchelenge to Mpweto...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major General Zulu: From Kasama to Mporokoso and Kaputa. What type of roads do we have? Even at Liteta here, the road from Liteta to Mumbwa via those farms, how are the roads there? Talk of  the road from Luangwa Bridge to Feira...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major General Zulu: How about the road from Chadiza to Chipata and the road from Lundazi to Chipata and Lundazi to Chama up to Isoka?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major General Zulu: Mr Speaker, I will not forget the road from Lundazi to Kazembe, Chitungulu and Mwanya. We need people like Dr Fundanga to co-ordinate with the Minister of Finance and National Planning to see what type of priorities we should have.

Mr Speaker, I am convinced that Dr Fundanga will be able to advise the Government on what type of priorities we should have in this country. In supporting the Motion, I would like to say that Dr Fundanga is the best candidate for this position. On behalf of the people of Lumezi, I support the Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I am sure my colleagues have laboured on the point that Dr Fundanga is the most qualified person for this position. I think those in my age group will agree that we are grateful that the Government, after removing older people like His Honour the Vice President, is bringing in people of our age to take over institutions of importance.


Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, obviously it is a sign that the young generation is going to take over these big institutions. Coming to Dr Fundanga, a few days ago, many people thought that he was getting a salary from the Bank of Zambia. But, Sir, I am grateful to the Committee led by Hon. Samukonga, strong man of Chawama, which has come to tell us that the integrity of the man was even shown by the fact that he was not getting a salary.

I am sure if he was, we would have had a situation today where so many millions would have been paid.

Mr Situmbeko: The advances were in millions.


Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, just two years ago, in this same House, we complained about reports coming from the Bank of Zambia. When we debated the Bank of Zambia, the Hon. Member for Luena, Mr Sibetta, was attacked outside this House. This happened at the Parliament Motel. I was present and the hon. Member was accused of being vindictive. We are hopeful, Sir, that the new Governor will be able to bring reports on time.

Mr Speaker, my colleague mentioned the appreciation of the Kwacha. I am not an economist but when you have people of integrity in institutions like the Bank of Zambia, even the Kwacha appreciates.


Mr Tetamashimba: Yes, that is what I believe in. When you have people of integrity, who can gain the confidence of the people, including outsiders, working in institutions, your currency ends up appreciating. But, when you put in people who are thieves, the currency does not appreciate.

Mr Speaker, all hon. Members here have paid tribute to this man and we only wish him the best. As Members of this Party, my two Vice Presidents have mentioned that we support the ratification of Dr Fundanga.

Mr Mabenga: Talk on your own behalf.

Mr Tetamashimba: We know who you are Hon. Mabenga and that you are not even in the National Executive Committee of your party...


Mr Tetamashimba: That is all we know. But, the people I am referring to are people who in the next few years will be on that side of the House. I wish to support the Motion in total.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order! I still hear new points, that is why the debate continues.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chitala): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief as most of the points concerning our colleague Dr Caleb Mailoni Fundanga have been very well expressed. I probably have known Dr Fundanga more than all the hon. Members in this House. He is truly an excellent citizen who has shown that service to Zambia can also be an objective for all of us.

Mr Speaker, his education as has been said, is relevant to the banking sphere he is coming to take up at the Bank of Zambia. His work culture, as I have known through working with him at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in 1991, is excellent. In fact, Hon. Kasonde who was the Minister of Finance and National Planning at that time, recommended that he go to the African Development Bank to be the Executive Director of the six countries in the SADC region.

There he served excellently for three years. After the President of the Bank saw that this son of Zambia was so good he offered him a position as senior advisor to the President on permanent and pensionable conditions. In other words, he was destined to be at that bank for as long as he wanted. 

When the term of the former Bank of Zambia Governor was coming to an end, we in the Government decided to look around among the Zambians, in the diaspora, for one who could come and take up the mantle of running our financial institutions. Among them, Dr Caleb Fundanga came out tops, therefore, we quickly appointed him as the Governor.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of this House, as you know, in banking, it is very difficult to leave a vacuum. In some cases, when a bank governor or manager is being replaced, we have to send the police to go and ensure that documents are there. So, we could not have let Dr Fundanga remain in Abidjan waiting to take up his appointment. This is because we had immense and very urgent things to tackle as you all know what has been happening at the Central Bank.

Mr Speaker, we actually forced him to resign from ADB to come and serve Zambia. At one time, I was always on the phone asking him when he was coming because this country needed him. Finally, he resigned and came to take up his position. He said he would not receive any salary until his name was ratified by this august House. This is the condition up to now. He has had no salary but is still participating in providing monetary and financial advice to the Government.

Now, two things have come out in this debate. The first one is about the New Deal Government’s attitude towards the brain drain. We really want to bring back the best Zambians, who are outside the country, to come and serve this country. All our people who are out there in the diaspora, who went away because of difficulties, have been told to come back because this is their country. We have told them to come and serve this country because it is only them who can do so. In any case, when they die over there we shall still bury them here. This is their country. We will not discriminate. We shall provide a job for anyone who is excellent in this country and wants the job so that they can serve this country with dignity and excellence.

Mr Speaker, the brain drain, as we promised during our campaign is now about to end. We have now provided conditions for our citizens, who are out there working for other countries, to come back, work here and serve their nation in dignity and with excellence.

Mr Speaker, the personal disposition of Dr Fundanga, again, has been well articulated by my elder brother, the Hon. Member for Pemba, Mr Matongo, as well as Hon. Sichinga. The new governor whom I have worked with extensively, both in the economic sphere and otherwise, truly, is what we need now as we try to develop and turn round this country. As Hon. Sichinga said, he believes in supply side economics, but not the dogmatic type where you become pedantic. He is dynamic. He also understands the role of money in an economy. With his wide experience in international monetary circles, as well as, ADB, he brings back to Zambia the experience that this country really requires as we struggle with these multinationals and financial oligarchy out there in the international economy. He will help us begin – as he said in the Committee Report on Page 8 when he was asked about the issues of interest rates. He said, and I quote:

“With regard to the specific question of how to overcome the problem of high interest rates, the appointee stated that there was need for increased local production of goods and services to earn the country the much needed foreign exchange.” 

Mr Speaker, there is nothing, apart from production, that will bring our economy back to movement. Now, here is a man who is saying that he will participate in this economy to ensure that interest rates are reduced so that Zambians can borrow and invest for expanded production. This will bring growth to our economy.

Mr Speaker, I think it is very clear. This to me, appears, really, as a conclusion of the debate because we have all agreed that this man is good, effective and excellent. We thank you for supporting this motion.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Legal Affairs (Mr Kunda): Mr Speaker, it is gratifying to note that our candidate has received overwhelming support.

Sir, Dr Fundanga, as the Committee Report shows, is a person of integrity. He left a high paying job at the ADB to come and serve his country out of patriotism. Hearing from the praises from hon. Members, arising from the four months service that he has put in, we as a Government, have been vindicated 

Mr Speaker, I must also take this opportunity to congratulate the Committee for a job-well-done. 

Sir, issues of ratification have been raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone, Mr Sikota. Of course, he articulated the provisions of the Bank of Zambia Act very well. Let me say this that the question of ratification is actually a question of two arms of Government, Parliament and the Executive, understanding each other. Ratification implies that, we, as Government, are coming to this august House to try to convince the House to accept our proposals.

Therefore, where when we are dealing with ratification, we need each other. Where we have difficulties, we can ask for the understanding of this House. What we have done is to explain our difficulties and in return, we are hopeful that this House will be understanding. We are not, at all, trying to turn this House into a rubber stamp. This Government cannot be said to have a propensity for by-passing this House. This is just one case in which we thought we had difficulties and could go ahead and later come to the House to ask for the understanding of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: The Report before this august House clearly acknowledges on Page 10 that the position with which we are dealing with is a strategic and important one. The Committee observed and I quote:
‘It was your Committee’s considered view that, given the importance and strategic nature of the position of Governor of the Bank of Zambia, the appointment needed to be ratified within a set time-frame.’

Mr Speaker, what I am saying is that, in the absence of provisions providing for an acting appointment like we have in the Supreme Court, where we can appoint acting Supreme Court Judges, we were in a dilemma of either leaving the bank exposed without a Governor on one hand or following the law, which is not very favourable on the other. We had to make a very difficult decision and at the same time come and ask for understanding from this House.

Mr Sibetta: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, we need your clarification because the hon. Minister is labouring on a point we have already covered. We agreed to the appointment. We have pointed out that the Governor was appointed on 28th March, 2002. At that time, this House was sitting, and Mr Speaker, you were in the chair. The Government should have brought this appointment for ratification to the House then. To leave it only to be brought to the House four or five months later, cannot go without our rebuking them for bending the law. We have agreed. This is the last time we forgive them. I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Legal Affairs should appreciate that point and then move on. I still have four contributors to speak on this motion before I call on the mover. Could we go over that point, please.

Will he continue, please.

Mr L. L. Phiri: and wind up.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, in fact, I was winding up. I have actually concluded.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for affording me this opportunity to say very few remarks, which have not been said by any hon. Member who contributed before me.

Mr Speaker, I just want to endorse what the shadow Cabinet Minister of Finance from UNIP, Hon. Nyirenda, educated our New Deal Government on.

Mr L. L. Phiri: I also want to endorse what the shadow Cabinet Minister of Trade, Commerce and Industry, Comrade Ng’uni has just endorsed.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Speaker: The word ‘comrade’ is unparliamentary in this House.

Will you continue, please.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I cherish your advice. I also want to endorse Hon. Ng’uni as the incoming President of the Opposition.


Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, on a serious note, the overwhelming support that hon. Members have shown this afternoon proves that by appointing such serious minded Zambians, this Government means well to the people of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri: But, Mr Speaker, I want to challenge Dr. Fundanga that under the UNIP Government, the closure of banks was unheard of. It was not there. It was a taboo. I would like to challenge Dr. Fundanga to restore the confidence of the Zambian people, whose confidence in Zambian banks, starting from the time when banks started closing, has been lost. The Zambian people now keep money in their homes. If this Government wants to prove it, let them change the currency that we are using now by next week. It will see how many people will take money from their homes to the banks to change. Why? This is because for the past ten years banks had people who were acting on their own will and lacked competence. 

Mr Speaker, hon. Members are this afternoon challenging Dr. Fundanga to have the competence of delivering to the expectancy of the people of Zambia. We want him to deliver and not to be intimidated. Cabinet has called on him today to advise it on how banks should operate in Zambia. We do not want to hear that the Co-operate Bank has closed down. Up to now, the Zambian farmers are still in court because of people who wanted to dance to the tune of those who appointed them, instead of to the tune of the people of Zambia, who needed them the most. I challenge Dr. Fundanga to restore the people of Zambia’s confidence, so that they can start trusting in banks the way they used to when UNIP was in power and banks did what people expected them to do.

Mr Speaker, as a senior parliamentarian under your leadership, …


Mr L. L. Phiri: … I just want to endorse what my shadow Cabinet Ministers have said. These are the people we would want to support. I support Dr. Fundanga to rise up to the challenges of Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the learned hon. Minister of Legal Affairs was simply confirming to this House in his debate that they are a Government of men and not of laws. I have personally advised him on several other ratifications, but they have simply ignored my advice to date. I do hope he corrects it because if he does not, I wonder what he will say when he comes to this House with a similar case.

Coming back to this debate, Mr Speaker, every successive Government that we have had and every hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning have rendered the Central Bank important. This is simply because of the pressure that they exert on the fiscal indiscipline of the Government. Already, last week, the Governor of the Central Bank made a public statement, at the Copperbelt and I think he was accompanied by the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Kalifungwa. He urged the Government to control Government spending. Already I believe the budget has over shot by about K260 billion in the first quarter. 

Now, the problem is, Mr Speaker, I was in this House when we were ratifying Dr. Jacob Mwanza. The previous Government, in its arrogance, only came years later to have him ratified. We had similar praises of the then Governor as I have heard today of this Governor. The problem was not the Governors at the bank. The problem was the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Heads of State who occupied the offices who render the office of the Governor impotent because of the amount of pressure that they put on the Governor.

 The job of the Central Bank is monetary policy. How can a Central Bank seriously consider and implement monetary policy if there is, consistent, gross indiscipline on the fiscal side? And, there is empirical data on this matter that there has been gross fiscal indiscipline for a long time, ironically, including in this first quarter..

Hon. Government Members: No.

Mr Patel: Yes, in this quarter and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will confirm it, if he is honest with himself as he always is. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, a question was raised a few years ago of  the Central Bank becoming independent. The answer given on this Floor by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s predecessor was that we are a developing country and he did not think we were ready for an independent Central Bank. I think that governments are never  ready for an independent Central Bank. This is because they cannot get their own houses in order. If there were an independent Central Bank, then the amount of gross fiscal indiscipline that carries on would not take place. If you look page 10 of the report, you will find that the Governor, himself, has confirmed that he intends to talk publicly about monetary turbulences based on a form which is called, Policy Monetary Committee, which is in the United Kingdom and Malawi. 

Now, what he is saying is that these provisions are already in the Act, but the previous Governors never did so. So, that is my point.

The second point is, the issue of political pressure and what impact it will have no matter how good the Governor is and that includes the issue of regular closures of commercial banks. We heard, in this House, for a couple of years, your predecessor, Hon. Kasonde, say:

“In the next sitting, we are going to bring the Bill with regards to the Depositors Insurance Scheme”.


Mr Patel: No, I was not because that was the time I resigned, in 1996.

It was eminent and the feeling we, as a country had was that it was about to come to the House. But it never came and what has happened since then is that several banks have closed down. Some, only a few, have been taken to court. The Banking and Financial Services Act clearly states that every director of a bank is going to be personally held responsible for the actions of the bank. But to date, how many directors of the banks that have closed have faced the music except a select few Executives or Managers. That is not in compliance with the Banking and Financial Services Act. 

Only today I received a letter from the incumbent Governor, who we are about to ratify in the next few minutes. He has confirmed that he has dealt with some Executives of some financial institutions, but he left it at that despite what the Banking and Financial Services Act says. That letter was fortunately copied to the hon. Minister. The point here is that you have got to deal with the director. The Act, as you know, Sir, was amended because of the closures of the banks in order to tighten it up. The noose was put around the directors of the banks. However, somehow, the very important people, seemed never to get theirs tight and we need to deal with that.


Mr Patel: Finally, it is time for the Governor to say, ‘no’ to the hon. Minister and you have to provide independence of the bank. 

Hon Kasonde, you have been in that ministry for a long time. What I heard from Hon. Chitala and also from Hon. Kasonde in the few months he has been in this House under this new Government is what I used to hear in 1992. I believed you then and now. The problem is what happened in between. You have to be courageous and let Bank of Zambia be independent.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion and I am very glad indeed that the Chairman of the Committee of the whole House and his team produced such a good report. We made a selection and we are also human beings, we can make mistakes. So, please do bear with us when we make mistakes. 

In this particular case, I think the whole House has agreed that we made the right choice.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: Dr Fundanga’s qualifications cannot be doubted. With those qualifications, he could be Governor of the Bank of England, Germany or any State on earth. So, Zambia has produced good enough material to be Governor anywhere in the world.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: The second point I want to make is that of integrity. Dr Fundanga will be my right hand person. The policies that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will follow would very much be inspired by the confidence in the reports the Bank of Zambia will give us. So, I think it is important for us all to know that I cannot run the Ministry of Finance and National Planning without the research section in the Bank of Zambia or without the top four people in the Bank of Zambia coming together with some solid advice. 

So, when I do propose monetary policy or changes on the Floor of this House, it means that the Bank of Zambia is fully involved. My way of working is not to belittle the integrity and brainpower of those who are working with me. I would always fail if I chose that course. My capacity is to be able to draw the best from the people around me and present it in the best interest of Zambia. Therefore, that is the reason why people like Dr Fundanga are really assets because I will succeed only if I use them responsibly.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: I would also like to endorse a point made earlier about Dr Fundanga that he had a job, which was paying him US $15,000 per month. I cannot pay that amount and I think it is important to realise the sacrifice the man has personally made for himself and his family to accept this job. He is really coming down in personal earnings to be able to do a good job for Zambia. I also know that he is a man of family values.

The quality of a person can be determined in the way he lives with his own wife and children. I am very happy that I have a man with a stable family who is going to be in charge of a stable bank.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasonde: There have been comments about the banker’s qualifications. Yes, indeed, not all of us can qualify with the Institute of Bankers, that is true. The Bank of Zambia is giving bursaries and allowances to allow as many young men and women in the bank to qualify at the expense of the Bank of Zambia.

So, I think that we realise that we are not going to run an institution without professional qualifications. We want to establish it, provide finance for it and select qualified young people to go forward and improve their professionalism.

 Sir, the next point that I want to make on the appointment of this man is that the depositors have, indeed, lost money in this country because we have not been sufficiently articulate in the Inspection Department of the Bank of Zambia. What Dr Fundanga has done already, is to strengthen that part of the Bank of Zambia so that when Inspectors go out to the institutions, they can ascertain that everything is properly secured and cover the exposure that we, ordinary depositors suffer by putting our money in the bank.

I will definitely encourage a situation where institutions are strong and robust and can assure the members of the public in Zambia of confidence in keeping their money in institutions such as the Bank of Zambia and the commercial banks.

Mr Speaker Sir, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

His Honour the Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up the debate. In winding this debate, I wish to applaud and acknowledge the very good work that the Chairman of the Committee, Hon. Samukonga the deputy, Hon Mulwanda and also the other hon. Members have put in. Not forgetting the usual support we get from your office. This is a piece of excellent work, Mr Speaker, which will stand the test of time. So, I join the rest of the House in commending the Chairman and his colleagues.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there has been overwhelming support for the ratification of Dr Fundanga and I think that is how it should be because we have presented a man of tremendous integrity and a lot of professional expertise. A nationalist, who we have heard, gave up his very comfortable life in the Ivory Coast to come and serve his nation.

Mr Speaker, in acknowledging the presence of Dr Fundanga at the Bank of Zambia, it is Government’s hope that Dr Fundanga will be supported. The way to support the Governor of the Bank of Zambia is, certainly, for the rest of the population to be productive and  produce goods, which will be sold to bring in foreign exchange. If we are just dependent on the integrity of one man, he is only one human being, what will happen if he is not well or he is away? So, it is hoped, Mr Speaker, that we shall continue to produce. That is the secret to Zambia’s success, production. The support we get from our co-operating partners is highly appreciated, but it can never be enough. It is like relief food which cannot be enough by its nature. People themselves will need to produce a little of it in order to supplement what we get from our colleagues.

The hon. Member for Siavonga talked about politicians putting pressure on the Governor, which may cause him to resign. I, personally, believe that there will not such pressure to cause Dr Fundanga to have second thoughts about having accepted the job. This is because he said to your Committee, and I quote from Page 9 of the report:

‘He also stated that he did not have an agenda that was diametrically opposed to that of the Government. For this reason, and with national development as the common goal, he believed that there would be no antagonism and he would work with the Minister of Finance and National Planning and other stakeholders.’

This is how we expect Dr Fundanga to operate. We expect that he will have the support of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and that there will not be any antagonism between the two for there is no reason to be any. They are both serving the same master, that is the people of Zambia.

The hon. Member for Livingstone, talked about the law. We thank him for observing, maybe, transgressions on our part. The House will be delighted to know that, in fact, it became extremely necessary, Mr Speaker, for the Governor to move in for reasons that I may not mention here …

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order relating to procedure. The Leader of Government Business cannot assume the role of the mover of the motion. He can only debate. I seek your serious indulgence.

Mr Speaker: The point of order raised by the hon. Member for Mbabala encourages His Honour the Vice-President to support the motion so that the mover can wind up the debate on the motion.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank you so much. Certainly, I have been here long enough to know that as the summariser I can, in fact, quote almost individually the contributions that you make and comment upon them. So, I excuse you because although you have been here for nine months you still do not know what is supposed to be done.


The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, a point was raised by the hon. Member for Lusaka Central regarding depositors’ insurance. We think that that is something, which the Government has to look into. I would urge my colleagues here that depositors do need to be protected. As regards the hon. Member for Chipangali, who talked about money in people’s homes, yes, we are aware of that. But, on the closure of banks, you may have been too young to realise it, but we used to have banks like the Land Bank, COZ and SPAFIF, which closed long before the MMD came into power. So, if you are going to write your memoirs about this subject, it is better to know when these things started. So, you now have three more banks, in fact, there were four. I have just forgotten the other one that closed.

Mr Speaker, I, therefore, thank everyone else here for having supported this motion.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order! Will the hon. Member for Chawama wind up the debate.

Mr Samukonga: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you, once again, for giving me the Floor to wind up the debate on this very important motion concerning the ratification of the appointment of Dr Caleb Mailoni Funganda for the position of Bank of Zambia Governor. It is a very important position, indeed, in the economics of our country and I believe that Dr Fundanga will live up to the expectations of this House by tackling important issues, especially the fiscal and monetary turbulences that confront our economy.

I am overwhelmed, Mr Speaker, that the appointment of Dr Caleb M. Fundanga, my former economics lecturer at the University of Zambia, has been supported. If Dr Fundanga’s appointment is ratified, I wish him all the best in his new assignment.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for selecting your Committee, which worked tirelessly to come up with these recommendations, which have been supported today. I thank the Vice-President for his words when he contributed to the debate on this motion.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Samukonga: I also wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the assistance that they gave us while we were interviewing the various witnesses that appeared before your Committee. I thank all the hon. Members of Parliament. I think not even a single one objected to our recommendations. Of course, various issues came up which would only perfect the way we conduct the business of this House in future.

Mr Speaker, Lastly, but not least, I wish to thank the Members of my Committee. Not even one day did anyone absent himself/herself from the business of the Committee. We worked tirelessly together as a team and reached the conclusions that we presented before this House. 

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I am very, very grateful for the support that my Committee has received from this House. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. 


The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do, now, adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1805 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 31st July, 2002.