Debates- Wednesday, 30th October, 2002

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 Wednesday, 30th October, 2002

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I have two announcements to make. The first is this, as the House noted yesterday, the temperature in the Chamber was overly high, thus making everyone uncomfortable.

My investigations have revealed that the cause of the high temperature in the Chamber is that the air conditioning plant is operating at only 60 per cent of its installed capacity, with only four (4) out of six (6) compressors working normally.

The installation of spare parts, including maintenance works, can, unfortunately, only be undertaken after a complete shutdown of the air conditioning plant. This can be done only outside normal working hours, i.e. over the weekend. Therefore, normal temperature in the Chamber is expected on Monday, 4th November, 2002.

I, sincerely, apologise to the House for the inconvenience that they will continue to suffer until we adjourn this Friday. Despite the discomfort, I wish to inform the House that neither male nor female Members of Parliament shall shed off any of the attire we are putting on, including this one (the Speaker’s uniform)!


Mr Speaker: Kindly bear with us.

The second one is as follows:


The House will recall that, on Thursday, 8th August, 2002, when the House voted on the motion to adopt the Committee Report on the ratification of the Attorney-General, some Members of the Select Committee voted against the motion. The House may further recall that in my immediate remark on this matter, I said, in part, as follows, and I quote:

    ‘I have noted with regret that some Members of         the Select Committee, in fact, voted against their         own report. I can immediately say that this is never         done. However, I have to look at the details later on         and make determination on the seriousness of this         matter.’

I have given serious consideration on this matter and I now wish to guide the House as follows:

1.    The procedures and practices in this House, on             Committees, do not allow Members of a sessional             or select committee to vote against their own report.             The same procedures do not allow for minority             reports. Members of this august House may wish             to recall, that each time a committee is briefed by             the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, it             is pointed out to the Members that procedures and             practices of the House do not allow for minority             reports. Furthermore, a random survey carried out             in other Commonwealth Parliaments confirm the             Zambian Parliament’s stand on this issue: that             Members of a select or sessional committee never             vote against their report; and neither do their                 procedure allow for minority reports.

2.    Members of the House may, further, wish to know             that, under the National Assembly (Powers and             Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia,             hon. Members are protected against external                 pressure in the performance of their parliamentary             duties. Section 23 of the Act states, and I quote:

        “Any person shall be guilty of an offence                 who –

        (a)    assaults, obstructs or insults any                     Member or officer going to or                     from the precincts of the                         Assembly Chamber; or

        (b)    endeavours to compel, either                     directly or indirectly, any                         Member by force, insult or                         menace to declare himself in                     favour of, or against, any Bill,                     resolution, matter, rule or thing                     submitted to, or intended to be                     submitted to the Assembly; or

        (c)    assaults, interferes with, resists or                     obstructs any officer while in the                     execution of his duty as such                     officer; or

        (d)    sends to any Member any 

[Mr Speaker]

        threatening letter, or challenges any                 Member to a fight, on account of his             conduct as such Member.” 

      The above quoted section and other provisions of the law protect Members of Parliament from external pressure. A Member who, therefore, feels that he or she is being forced to perform his or her Parliamentary duties in a manner which is against the procedures and practices of this House should report such pressure to the Hon. Mr Speaker. A Member who is compelled to succumb to external pressure on matters of the business of the House who does not seek the protection of the Hon. Mr Speaker, has himself or herself to blame.

     In conclusion, as I stated earlier, after seriously considering the conduct of the Members of that Select Committee who voted against their Report, I decided to make this announcement and guide the House accordingly. In future, the Chair will not take kindly if a Member conducts himself or herself in the manner some of the Members of the Select Committee did. The Chair will take it as a breach of Members’ privileges, procedures and practices of this House.

   It is, therefore, my sincere hope that this House will observe the rules and regulations that govern the affairs of this House and observe them to the letter. It is needless to mention that breaches of procedures, practices and privileges of this House attract sanctions, as hon. Members are already aware.

  Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!



153. Mr Kombe (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the Pedicle Road between Mokambo and Mansa will be rehabilitated.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Katema): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the portion from Mansa to Chembe is tarred. My ministry, through the Provincial Roads Engineer, is currently doing pothole patching. We shall soon put up two contractors to carry out routine maintenance. A new bridge called Lukangaba Bridge was also opened in September 2000.

Mr Speaker, as for the Pedicle Road, we are currently grading and regravelling some portions. We have also done 

culvert construction to improve the drainage of the road.

As I said yesterday, my ministry is desirous of upgrading the road between Chembe and Mokambo to all weather bitumen standards. In this regard, my ministry is pursuing diplomatic channels through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so that a meeting could be held between Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, taking advantage of the plans the hon. Minister has just outlined, I would like to know whether they have similar plans for the Great East Road which has remained incomplete since 1995.

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, yes, part of the Great East Road was done and we have plans to continue with the works up to the end of the road.

I thank you, Sir.

Major-General Zulu (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, the Chipata/Lundazi Road is a disaster. There are fish ponds and not potholes. A trip from Chipata to Lundazi takes about five hours. Now, my question is: when are you going to work on the Lundazi Road?

Mr Katema: Mr Speaker, we are going to work on that road as soon as funds are available.

I thank you, Sir.


154. Mr Kombe asked the Minister of Health:

    (a)    when the Ronald Ross Hospital in                     Mufulira was officially taken over by the                 Government;

    (b)    how many of the following were there at                 the time of the handover:

        (i)    surgeons;

        (ii)    doctors;

        (iii)    nurses; and

    (c)    how many of the personnel in (b) above                 were there as at 31st July, 2002.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr G. C. Chulumanda): Mr Speaker, the Ronald Ross Hospital in Mufulira was officially taken over by the Government on 1st 

April, 2000.

The following categories of employees were at Ronald Ross Hospital at the time: there were five doctors and no surgeons. On nurses, there were twenty-four registered midwives; twenty-five registered nurses; fifty-one enrolled midwives; and thirty-one enrolled nurses.

Of the personnel in part (b) above, the following were there, as at 31st July, 2002: registered midwives – 11; registered nurses – 16; enrolled midwives – 34; and enrolled nurses – 38.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kombe: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the ministry if there is any deliberate move to stop the brain drain, especially nurses and doctors from that hospital. Is there anything that the ministry can do to stop the brain drain by, maybe, making them sign an undertaking to work for the institution for five to ten years.

Mr G.  C. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, yes, there are plans that the Ministry of Health is working on to reduce the brain drain and the exodus of medical personnel to neighbouring countries and elsewhere. One of the issues is what the hon. Member has suggested, but currently, we are working on improving the conditions of service for our medical personnel.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know from the hon. Minister the causes of the drastic change from the original number of personnel to the number we have at present.

Mr G.  C. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, there are issues of deaths, retirements and also the issue of exodus which I earlier cited.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr  Mwale (Chipata): Mr Speaker, in line with the answer given by the hon. Minister regarding the staffing of hospitals, I would like to find out whether there are any plans to re-staff the Chipata General Hospital which does not have enough surgeons and doctors and also to replace the ill qualified Cuban doctors that have proved to be undertakers rather than doctors in Chipata General Hospital.


Mr G. C. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, to start with, the hon. Member from Chipata is not a consultant and, so, he has no mandate to speak for the Ministry of Health. All the 

Cuban doctors we brought into the country are well qualified. The issue of equipping hospitals with qualified personnel is an on-going exercise and we, as a ministry, are determined to put qualified doctors and nurses and consultants in all the hospitals, especially the general hospitals and central hospitals in the country.

I thank you, Sir.


155. Mr Moonde (Bweengwa) asked the Minister of commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a)    what benefits Zambia derives from its membership             of the Common Market for Eastern and Southern             Africa; and

(b)    which area of trade is viable for the country.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Appel): Mr Speaker, first of all, may I advise the House that in considering the benefits that Zambia derives or potentially stands to derive from its membership in COMESA, it is important that we also take into account the state and historical perspective of our economy.

Ten years ago, this country’s business sector had heavy Government involvement with over 90 per cent State-owned enterprises which were not only inefficient and uncompetitive but heavily protected by the State. This kind of environment tended to favour monopolistic tendency. The situation changed in 1991 when there was a shift in the commercial and industrial policy from import substitution and protectionism to the promotion of the liberalised market economy.

Mr Speaker, our signing of trade agreements like WTO, COMESA and SADC also entail the opening up of our borders. We had a choice of either remaining isolated as the world economy’s reformed and embraced liberal policy or join the rest of the world in the march to world’s globeralisation. To survive in a liberalised global economy, industries must be able to withstand regional competition.

Sir, COMESA provides an important testing ground for Zambia. If we fail to withstand a regional competition from within COMESA, it is also highly likely that we shall not be able to survive the global competition. Other than COMESA being an important stepping stone to the global economy, there are several benefits that Zambia derives from the membership of COMESA. These include the following:

-    COMESA provides the biggest market for Zambia’s             exports in the region. Following the creation of the             COMESA free trade area in 2000, most producers

[Mr Appel]

    in Zambia have established agency arrangements         to bonding and warehousing facilities with other         business persons and firms in the region. Zambian         firms such as Zambia Sugar Company, Chilanga         Cement, Mulungushi Textiles, Finta Diaries,             Schweppes and Hybrid Poultry Farm are now         selling more goods in the COMESA region. Kenya,         Malawi, DRC, Burundi, Rwanda, Namibia,             Mauritius and Uganda are among the major export         destinations for Zambian products.

-    Some COMESA member States have been sources             of affordable production inputs such as chemical             and agro inputs, especially in Zimbabwe. Some             Zambian industries are beneficiaries of affordable             loans sourced from the COMESA-PTA Bank which             finances a number of private sector projects in             Zambia.

-    As at 31st December, 1999, the bank’s lending             portfolio included eighteen projects with a value of             US$23.4 million being funded in Zambia out of the             total of 114 projects in all COMESA member States.

Mr Speaker, COMESA employs ninety professional and general staff, out of which about 26 per cent of the professional and most of all the general staff are Zambians. COMESA is also one of the large consumers of services such as electricity, telephones, internet, car hire, hotels and catering, insurance, audit and accountancy services. All these services directly or indirectly benefit Zambians.

COMESA also implemented a number of trade facilitation projects from which Zambia has been benefiting. This project includes the following:

-     Advanced cargo information systems for tracking             trucks and railway wagons.

-     Reform and modernisation of the Customs                 Department through the ASYCUDA
       computerisation system.

-     COMESA Customs Bond Guarantee Scheme.

-     Harmonised COMESA road users, transport                 charges, transit charges.

-     COMESA third party motor vehicle insurance,             schemes, also known as the yellow card.

-    COMESA carrier licence.

-    COMESA transit plates.

Mr Speaker, in answer to question (b), Zambia has a wide spectrum of goods with viability and potential to benefit from the COMESA setup. Among these are non-traditional goods such as processed goods, foods, cotton as well as copper wire and rods. Export of electricity to neighbouring countries is also viable, considering that the country has abundant water resources for generating electricity.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, in view of what the hon. Minister has just said, why has it been found necessary to have dual membership, that is to COMESA and SADC, if you have to harmonise trade in the region?

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Namuyamba): Mr Speaker, there is a difference between COMESA and SADC. We had to make a choice whether to belong to both of these organisations or to belong to one. Basically, COMESA covers a wider area than SADC. I think, potentially, we are benefiting more from COMESA than from SADC.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nzowa (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, having given us that elaborate answer, I would like to draw the hon. Minister to his response so that he can respond to my question. You have mentioned that cement is one of the exports that Zambia is exporting. Are you aware that Zimbabwean cement has killed the prices of our Chilanga Cement in this country? Secondly, if we are in COMESA and we are going to abide by COMESA regulations and rules, then why have we banned certain items from Zimbabwe? Are we able to compete in COMESA?

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, there is a contradiction in the hon. Member’s question. The reason why we banned the fourteen products from Zimbabwe was basically what he has just stated, that is, killing our own industry in this country.

Coming to the second question, the banning of products from Zimbabwe was done out of patriotism. I had to make a choice whether to let our industry in this country die at the expense of the industries in Zimbabwe or let our industries here thrive. The choice was that we had to look after our own industries here because if we did not do so, we were going to be faced with a lot of redundancies, retrenchments and so on. So, as a Government …


Mr Nzowa: Is it in line with COMESA?

Mr Namuyamba: Yes, it is in line. I will come to that. So, 

as a Government, we had to make that choice.

Now, there is a provision in the COMESA Treaty for safeguard measures when your own industries in that country are threatened with closure. That is what we have just done.

I will be coming afterwards to this House, and I hope Hon. Nzowa will support me, to amend the Customs and Excise Act and also the Control of Goods Act. I hope you are going to support that amendment.

Mr Speaker, we are in line with what we have done.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Samukonga (Chawama): Mr Speaker, I have got a lot of respect for the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, but I think he is misleading this House.

Mr Speaker, industry in Zambia has collapsed completely. There is no industry to talk about. People have been declared redundant and they are suffering. There are no protectionist measures put in place by our Government to safeguard infant industry.

Hon. Governments Members: What is your question, Sir?

Mr Samukonga: The question, Sir, is: what measures and plans is the Government putting in place in order to protect our industries, especially, infant industry? Secondly, I wish to remind this House that Zambia has been turned into a dumping ground for cheap products which can actually be produced locally. We have been signatories to trade protocols …

Mr Speaker: Can the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, please, answer the question.


Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, I have just answered that question. The answer is that we are putting in safeguard measures to protect our industries and to avoid being turned inot a dumping ground.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Nakalonga (Chikankata): Sir, would the hon. Minister come up with the statement or tell us, now, that the MMD Government has changed its direction from pursuing a market-driven economy to a protectionist economy? From the time they came into power to now, all industries have been destroyed. Can he categorically tell us if there is a shift or a U-turn on the part of the MMD Government or is the Government working against its own manifesto.

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, the answer is, no. We have not shifted from our vision.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, COMESA has been in operation for more than twelve years and the people of Zambia have been declared redundant in various industries.

Hon. Government Members: What is your question?

Mr Sibetta: The question is: can the hon. Minister tell this House how much money Zambia is getting from COMESA as a share of the revenue from the Customs Union for this area to compensate for the closure of industries in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namuyamba: That kind of question needs some research.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister come up with tangible plans and strategies on how he intends to protect the indigenous industries without blind folding this country because production costs in the neighbouring countries are very low. I would like the hon. Minister to tell us here in no uncertain terms how genuine his protectionist stance is going to be without encouraging monopolistic companies which sell their products at very high prices. For instance, cement is going for a very high price when production costs in the neighbouring countries are very low.

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, we are not protecting any industry. In fact, the banning of cement from Zimbabwe was done because the parallel exchange rate in Zimbabwe, the official rate there, is about Zim$55 and the black market rate is about Zim$800 to US$1. So, on the basis of that, our own industry, Chilanga Cement could not compete with the Zimbabwean cement. But, of course, we have allowed South African cement to come in the country. It is only the Zimbabwean cement which we have not allowed to come into this country.

Mr Speaker, I will, again, maybe, sometime this sitting, come to this House to seek your support to amend the Investment Act so that we can have some sectors to be for Zambians only. Some foreigners can come for other sectors and join hands with their Zambian counterparts.

Hon. Opposition Members: When is that?

Mr Namuyamba: We have already done that Bill and I will be bringing the amendment of the Bill to this House. So, in short, we are not protecting any industry at all.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry make an assurance here that these industries that are going to enjoy the monopoly because of the protection that he intends to give them will not eventually exploit the consumer.

Mr Namuyamba: First of all, Sir, I have said we are not going to protect any industry. So, I do not see the relevance of that question.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I am glad that the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry has taken measures to try to revive certain industries. However, in putting the ban of certain products, this has had an effect on the other side of the coin, which is that the 10,000 or more households in Livingstone who rely on cross border trade have been affected.

Hon. Government Members: What is your question?

Mr Sikota: The question, therefore, is: what measures are being put in place by the Government to ensure that the social disaster which is looming in Livingstone due to the livelihood of the Livingstone residents having been taken away is alleviated?

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, I know, I have heard and read that there are some people in Livingstone who are camped on the no man’s land fearing to cross the border for fear of the customs officials and I know they are speaking through their hon. Member of Parliament.

Now, Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone has to make a choice - either to continue supporting traders crossing the border from Zimbabwe to Zambia or revive the industries in that town. The industries in Livingstone cannot be revived if we are going to continue supporting traders who come to Zambia with finished products. So, what we are doing as a Government is, maybe, at a later date to declare Livingstone a tax free zone in order for industries to start functioning in that town.

Secondly, …

Mr Tetamashimba: What about Solwezi?


Mr Namuyamba: Secondly, Sir, we shall also declare Livingstone as an Export Processing Zone. That way, the industries in Livingstone will start flourishing again. Without doing so, by merely supporting traders from Livingstone to  Zimbabwe and vice versa, we will not solve the economic malaise this country is facing.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. L. Phiri : Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to assist this nation in telling us the truth. Knowing very well that council houses which people were renting have been sold and that most of the workers, now, in this country are getting poor salaries and they were just trying now to start building houses using the cheaper cement from Zimbabwe, what can the hon. Minister tell this nation about the more expensive cement we are now buying compared to the cheaper cement with which people were able to build houses. What measures is the Government taking before they bring all those Bills he is talking about so that people should continue building houses using the cheaper materials like cement from Zimbabwe?

Mr Appel: Mr Speaker, I think the hon. Minister has laboured on this point. The issue of cheap goods is very probable in Zambia. Some people are not paying taxes and are smuggling things in using wrong currency rates to bring in goods. The problem which the hon. Minister stated very clearly is that the official rate which they were using in Zimbabwe of fifty-five to a dollar was not being used. 

Therefore, they were using the black market rate. That means that they were not paying the VAT when they were bringing in the goods and they were coming in at a highly subsidised rate. We have now applied the correct VAT based on the parallel rate and, if they had to come in now, they would be equal with the price of the Zambian cement and goods, I can assure you. And the Zambian cement is now competitive with the South African cement.


Mr Speaker: If I allow a point of order to be raised while a Government Minister is answering, that signifies that the House is not interested in listening to what the hon. Minister or the Government, as a whole, is saying. I will allow two more supplementary questions.

Mr T. K. Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): I think some of us here are getting confused. Maybe, Government policies explain why this country is where it is. Now, I want a simple definition from the hon. Minister. We know that COMESA is a Free Trade Area. Now, here we are hearing the opposite. Can you redefine the meaning of Free Trade Area.

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, it is not free for all. The COMESA Treaty provides for certain measures where, as a country, you feel your industries are getting threatened by cheap imports, there is a provision in the COMESA Treaty. You read it.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal (Namwala): Sir, I am going to move away from cement and go to Zambian marble. Where is Zambian marble polished? How much of it is polished in Zambia and how much of it goes outside  Zambia and comes back polished?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister may answer that question only if he so wishes.

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, first of all, that is a new question. Secondly, marble is mined. I hope next time, the hon. Member for Namwala will direct that question to the right ministry.

Thank you, Sir.


156. Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development when electricity will be provided to Kasapa Clinic in Solwezi.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Manjata): Mr Speaker, for electrification to be considered, an application needs to be made to the Permanent Secretary in my ministry. The application should follow the laid down guidelines for electrification projects.

I must, however, state that even when an application is received and approved, actual project implementation will depend on availability of funds. My ministry, therefore, awaits an application for extension of electricity to the clinic. Once that application has been received, the application will be evaluated and considered together with other applications.

I must state, however, that if this clinic is within the urban part of Solwezi District, then it may not be considered under the Rural Electrification Programme even if an application was submitted.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa: Mr Speaker, I have not heard the answer. I am still waiting for the answer.


Mr Speaker: Order! There was so much joy when the hon. Deputy Minister was giving the answer, so much that the House could not get what he was saying. My advice to the hon. Member for Solwezi East is that he should look up the verbatim transcripts tomorrow. He will then get a full answer of what the hon. Deputy Minister has just said.



157. Mr Shemena (Solwezi West) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the Government can authorise the Zambia Revenue Authority to remit the fuel levy directly to the National Roads Board.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by the hon. Member for Solwezi West, the Government cannot authorise the Zambia Revenue Authority to remit fuel levy directly to the National Roads Board. Doing so would contradict the Financial Regulations and Finance Control and Management Act which states that all revenues must be deposited to the credit of the Bank of Zambia before it can be expended on expenditure authorised by an appropriate Act. The Zambia Revenue Authority is mandated by law to collect revenue on behalf of the Government. Accordingly, for the purposes of accountability, the funds have to pass through the banking systems.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena: Sir, how much does the Government still owe the National Roads Board to date? And when is the Government going to offset this debt burden to enable the National Roads Board to perform?

Mr Kalifungwa: You see, questions of statistical nature are supposed to be provided in writing so that we can research well and provide statistics.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: Besides, may the hon. Member watch whether he would benefit also from Question 158. Maybe there is some element or statistics which may assist.

Mr Ng’uni: Sir, I would like the hon. Minister to explain to the House why they get a bit excited to receive moneys 

[Mr Ng’uni]

collected by the Zambia Revenue Authority and fail to remit the money by misapplying it. Why do they not want to take back the money that ZRA collects from fuel levy when, in fact, the road users are messing up their vehicles day in and day out?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the point he has raised is a fact. Some periods, fuel levy is not remitted in full to the National Roads Board because of some money which is utilised for emergencies. That is a fact.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): My question is directed at the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Is he aware that the Zambia Revenue Authority’s sweeping powers have contributed to the shutting of Zambia’s industry, especially manufacturing?

The Zambia Revenue Authority’s (ZRA) sweeping powers have been targeted at the Opposition political parties to the extent that their industries have been crumbled because ZRA has sweeping powers calculated against them.

Mr Speaker: The Chair may call on the hon. Minister if he has something to say about the sweeping powers, which stifles, according to that claim, the Opposition businesses. Do you have the answers, Sir?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kasonde): Mr Speaker, ZRA does not exercise powers other than what this House has given it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwale (Chipata): Mr Speaker, I would like to know what criteria the National Roads Board uses to reallocate the funds so collected to needy areas and whether and how, perhaps, equitable this formular has been.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I think the ministry does the collection. Disbursement of funds is done by the other ministry, and the National Roads Boards is under that ministry. So, they can be in a position to give you the criteria they utilise to disburse the money.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s response, can he tell us why this levy is being collected according to the Act. Is he saying that his Government will divert money by collecting money on the false pretence that we collect your money so that we fix the 
roads and yet divert the money for other purposes?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the purpose of the fuel levy is for maintenance of roads and that is the main reason we collect it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I am very happy to see the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Mr Kasonde, in this House and I would like him to answer this question as I am putting it to him clearly.


Mr Sibetta: Provinces in this country are promising development, but the municipalities of these provincial centres in Mongu, Kasama, Solwezi and everywhere are not getting development  from this hon. Minister. Also the money to repair the roads that vehicles use to take fuel to  provincial centres is not made available. What is the hon. Minister doing to ensure that the fuel levy, at least, is given  to the provincial centres so that we have a new life on our roads? I  want Hon. Kasonde to stand up and answer this question.


Mr Speaker: Only the Chair can ensure that!

Mr Kasonde: Mr Speaker, I am also delighted to be back in the House among so many friends. Since I took over the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we do remit the total levy to the institution for which it is meant every month, but let me also add that the money we spend on roads, in general, is far much higher than the total that the levy can collect.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning confirmed that they sometimes divert money from fuel levy to other uses. May I know if they have the authority to divert fuel levy to other uses without the authority of Parliament. If they do not, what disciplinary action is taken against people who divert fuel levy to other uses?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I think emergencies are emergencies and when we talk about it, it is not even planned for. When there is an emergency, you can use any means that is available at your hands.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Samukonga (Chawama): Mr Speaker, I am not trying to be unnecessarily critical, but bringing up some practical suggestions to help the Government manage or raise resources for roads. In other countries, for instance, we have 

[Mr Ng’uni]

toll-gates where revenue is collected from motorists, truckers, especially trucks which come into our country, damaging our roads and putting the Government under pressure to raise funds from elsewhere to maintain these roads. We should actually be collecting revenue from the toll-gates and, probably, even look at issues of concessionalising these roads like privatising them.

My question is: what measures is the Government putting in place to try and collect revenue from motorists in order for our roads to be maintained properly without undue pressure on the Government revenue?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, we have been constrained, as a Government in terms of revenue and we have been looking at ways and means to broaden the revenue base and the Government is actually coming to the House with a new Bill to try and broaden the revenue base for the collection of funds for road maintenance and construction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I am a little bit confused with the answer given by the hon. Cabinet Minister who confirmed that this year, they have not diverted any money and yet the hon. Deputy Minister is saying that there are emergencies …


Mr Patel: I have just lost my reading glasses. However, I will just try and read.

Mr Speaker, I have with me the annual report of the National Roads Board of 2001 and it says that in 1998, US$13 million was raised from fuel levy and only US$12.42 million was remitted to the National Roads Board and in 1999, US$27.9 million was raised from citizens on the pretence that it was for the roads. Only US$9.82 million was remitted. In the year 2000, US$23 million was raised and only US$11.4 million was disbursed. In the year 2001 US$28.5 million was raised and only US$14.95 was remitted.

What assurance can we get -  and is it not immoral to take money from motorists on the understanding that you are using it for roads and then misapply it to somewhere else?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I do take the point from Hon. Dipak Patel. It is a good point, thank you very much.



158. Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a)    how much, in the form of fuel levy, was raised             between January, 1999, and December, 2001;

(b)    how often is this money remitted to the National             Roads Board; and

(c)    how much of this money was allocated to the             Nalikwanda Parliamentary Constituency for roads             rehabilitation in the same period.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, in response to the question by Hon. Kalumiana, I wish to respond as follows:

(a)    A total of K114,299,725,700 was collected as fuel             levy between January, 1999 and December, 2001.

(b)    Fuel levy is on average remitted to the National             Roads Boards on a monthly basis.

(c)     Over the same period, a total of K2,202,421,000             was allocated to Mongu District, where Nalikwanda             Parliamentary Constituency is located, for road             rehabilitation, as the roads rehabilitation works cut             across constituencies.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, with regard to part (c) of the question, I would like to be educated on what criteria this apportioning is based.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the administration of this money is done by the Ministry of Communications and Transport. Really, I cannot tell you the criteria that is used to disburse this money. Maybe, you could direct that question to the Ministry of Communications and Transport.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister clearly state whether he is mistaking HIPC funds for fuel levy. There has not been any subvention from his ministry on fuel levy to Mongu District. All we have received are HIPC funds. Is he mistaking HIPC funds for fuel levy?

Mr Kalifungwa: Hon. Sibetta, the question is specific on fuel levy. It has nothing to do with HIPC funds.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


159. Mr Nakalonga asked the Minister of Lands when the Government will act on the findings of the Sakala Commission of Inquiry on land matters in Southern Province.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Sokontwe): Mr Speaker, the Government has already acted on the recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry on land matters in the Southern Province. This includes repossession of Farm 607 and creation of Kabesha Resettlement Scheme. We are also planning to sub-divide Lubombo Multi-Purpose Co-operative Society, Farm 125, into smallholdings.

At the same time, I would like to appeal to the hon. Member of Parliament, who is my uncle, to specify the exact recommendation on the inquiry, so that it can be easy for us to verify it.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nakalonga: Mr Speaker, the question was straightforward. We are asking about the action taken on the recommendations of the Sakala Commission of Inquiry. The intentions and objectives of the Commission of Inquiry were straightforward and clearly showed that there was a land shortage in the Southern Province. That was more than ten years ago. Since then the number of people without land has more than doubled.

I would also like to ask whether the hon. Minister is aware that due to lack of some inputs such as fertiliser for the farmers in the province, farmers tend to leave the old fields and this has made the land problem more acute. As a result, people have nowhere to farm because the good land, where they were moved from in the 1940s and 1950s by the settlers, is not fully utilised. We know of some farms that are fallows.

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: Ask your question.

Mr Nakalonga: Be steady if you do not know what I am talking about. You do not live in the Southern Province.

Lieutenant-Colonel Kafumukache: The hon. Minister has already answered.

Mr Nakalonga: He has not answered. Sorry, Mr Speaker. If you do not know the problem, please, listen. Do not belittle the problem which is in the Southern Province. It was not necessary for me to specify a district. Specifically, I am talking of the Southern Province as a whole.

Mr Situmbeko: And not Kasempa.


Mr Sokontwe: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the Government has already de-gazetted Magoye Local Forest 

No. 47 for farming. At the same time, the Government has already put in place Lubombo Multi-Purpose Co-operative Society to be sub-divided into smallholdings. This is farm No. 125.

The hon. Member also referred to the distribution of fertiliser. That does not fall under my ministry. It falls under the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, we have been told of the problem of land shortage in the Southern Province. The present Government is importing farmers from Zimbabwe. What measures are they putting in place to ensure that there is no conflict in future in terms of these farmers grabbing land from the indigenous people?

Mr Speaker: The question cannot be allowed because it is not relevant to Question 159.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said there are three farms which the Government has identified for demarcation. In relation to the demand, may I know the number of people who will benefit from these farms.

Mr Sokontwe: Mr Speaker, this will depend on the size of the land. I said we were going to demarcate this land into smallholdings after knowing how big it is.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, the question of the shortage of land in the Southern Province is real. It is difficult for me to understand why the Government is not serious about the question of land in the Southern Province. When will they address the issue of the shortage of land in the Southern Province? I am happy to point out that the hon. Minister of Lands, actually, visited my constituency on the same question of land. When are they going to give clear-cut answers on how they are going to approach the question of the shortage of land, especially in my constituency?

Mr Sokontwe: Mr Speaker, like I said earlier on, the Government has now demarcated some of these farms into smallholdings so that they can be shared among our relatives as smallholdings for them to cultivate.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order! It is quite clear to the Chair that we are not making progress on the subject. It does appear as if the hon. Minister cannot give any more information than he 
has been repeating before the House. Let me find out from 

the hon. Member for Kalomo whether he will come up with a follow-up question which may be answered. Hon. Member for Kalomo!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister says that there have made settler schemes. May I know when the Ministry of Lands will start giving title deeds. This has become a very big problem. They have tried to solve the problem by demarcating the resettlements, but they are not giving the people title deeds. When will they start doing that?

Mr Sonkontwe: Mr Speaker, this is an ongoing process and we have been issuing title deeds.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Well, I am required to ensure that the House to makes progress. We are not making much progress on that subject.or

Mr Sibetta: I have a good question!

Mr Speaker: All right! The Chair wants to find out if you have a good question for the hon. Minister.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, this question is much older than the municipal houses on which this Government has distributed title deeds. It is ten years old. Can the hon. Minister, Hon. Judith Kangoma-Kapijimpanga stand up and show leadership, by telling  the people …


Mr Sibetta: … when distribution of title deeds to the people who are hungry for land in Southern Province will start, because this is a ten-year old question. She cannot leave it to her Deputy Minister. Stand up and show leadership.


Mr Speaker: The Chair emphasises that only the Chair can make the hon. Minister speak and not the hon. Member for Luena!


Mr Speaker: The hon Minister of Lands.


Mrs Kapijimpanga: Mr Speaker, title deeds are issued as soon as a cadastral survey is done. Such a survey has not been done and that is why the title deeds have not been issued.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sibetta: Mwana!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Another good question!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I would like to mention to the hon. Minister and make a follow-up question that because of the problem of the shortage of land in the Southern Province, we have a problem in Chongwe District now. All the Southerners have moved to Chongwe …

Hon. Opposition Members: Naidoo!

Mrs Masebo: The idea of the ministry demarcating resettlements is good. However, the problem is that people who are being settled are not people of the same districts. Those from other provinces have land, while the owners of the land do not have any. In future, this is going to create a big problem and we might end up having another Zimbabwe case in this country.  

What is the hon. Minister doing to ensure that what is happening in Zimbabwe does not happen in this country as a result of their policy of bringing people from one district to another district?

Hon. Members: Fyafula!

Mr Speaker: Order! If the House is not interested in listening, the Chair is.

Mrs Kapijimpanga: Mr Speaker, Chongwe area is basically a traditional area. If settlers go to Chongwe to settle, they usually go through the Chiefs. We only give them title when the Chief approves and the Chongwe District Council forwards the information to our ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


160. Mr Patel asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry whether there has been an inquiry into the sale of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines non-core assets and, if so, what is the outcome.

Mr Appel: Mr Speaker, in response to the question by the hon. Member for Lusaka Central, I wish to inform the House 
that we are in the process of scouting for money in order to 
engage a firm of auditors to assist us in the reconciliation of the status of the ZCCM non-core assets and sales proceeds. 

[Mr Appel]

It must be noted, though, that this exercise requires huge sums of money to enable the auditors reach all the locations of the assets. The House will appreciate that ZCCM had over 300 non-core assets scattered all over the country and many parts of the world, including Tanzania, Britain, Spain, South Africa and France.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister then explain of what benefit the study will be if it is done three or four years after the non-core assets were sold. These non-core assets were sold in the year 2000.

Mr Appel: Mr Speaker, this is a necessary requirement because all Government assets must be accounted for at all times. This exercise may have been hindered due to the lack of resources. I believe that the resources are being sought to carry out this exercise because the delay cannot be sustained any longer.

I thank you, Sir.


161. Mr Patel asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry why the demarcation of Export Processing Zones was delayed.

Mr Appel: Mr Speaker, in response to Hon. Patel’s question, I wish to inform the House that the delay in demarcating EPZs has mainly been caused by the late release of financial resources by the Treasury. However, I can confirm that some of the funds have now been released and the exercise of operationalising the EPZs is in full gear. The Export Processing Zones are expected to be demarcated and operationalised by the December 2002. We shall soon announce the appointment of the Board of Directors which, in turn, will appoint the Chief Executive Officer of the EPZ Authority. Hon. Members may have noted that we have already advertised the position of the Chief Executive Officer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the ministry is going to call together the stakeholders in the places which have been or will be designated as EPZ, such as Livingstone, in order to get from them an input on the regulations and incentives which are required, and when these regulations will actually be brought to the House.

Mr Appel: Mr Speaker, there will be an announcement as soon as the Chief Executive Officer is in place. For the 

information of the hon. Member for Livingstone, the Act has been out for sometime and it is available at the Government Printers. So, those who need the information are free to obtain it from the Government Printers.

Thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, as one of those who are coming from the towns affected, I would like to know the position from the hon. Minister which areas are being considered as Export Processing Zones and Tax Free Zones, considering that there have been numerous and careless statements made by several Government Ministers as regards the Export Processing Zones and Tax Free Zones.

Now, I want the hon. Minister to state, on behalf of the Government, so that the investors in Ndola or the remaining few companies there can take it from him, that there shall be Export Processing Zones or Tax Free Zones. Sir, all of them have relocated to other towns. Can you tell the nation what the position is.

The President of the Republic of Zambia and MMD, during the past ten years, had made several statements to this effect. Can you, please, clarify which towns are going to be affected and whether they will be Export Processing Zones or Tax Free Zones. Can you state that, clearly, please.

Mr Appel: These two Acts have different incentives. The Export Processing Act is intended to encourage exports, as it says. There are a lot of incentives in it and requires a lot of investment. So, there will be a situation where the normal business houses may not be able to benefit from it unless they can access a lot of investment funds.

When it comes to the Tax Free Zones, that process will be decided in due course, depending on the situation after we assess how effective the Export Processing Zones are. When that is determined and the areas are designated by the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, we will then pass the job over to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning who will issue a Statutory Instrument.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I have heard from the hon. Minister that they have no funds to carry out some exercises. Can the hon. Minister inform this House who were selling our copper on our behalf when MEMACO was banned in England. If you tried to find out those who were selling, you may find that they have some money stashed somewhere. They should tell us who were selling that copper and they should follow up on that money so that this exercise does not take ten years.

Mr Appel: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member would 

direct that question to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Liato (Kaoma): Mr Speaker, for many years, we dealt with problems in the trade unions where these Export Processing Zones had been effected in many countries before us. The major problem of the Export Processing Zones is that the conditions of service are usually very poor. I do not know whether our Government has done enough study as to how this will affect those workers who have been in these industries where Export Processing Zones will be in effect. Has the Government undertaken a study and if so, what measures are they putting in place to ensure that there will be no slave conditions of service in these industries?

Mr Namuyamba: Mr Speaker, we have undertaken a study. We had officials who travelled to Kenya, Zimbabwe and Mauritius and, so, we are very conversant with how the EPZs in those countries operate. The workers in areas which will be declared EPZs will have recourse to the Ministry of Labour and Social Security where employers infringe on their conditions of service.

Thank you, Sir.


162. Mrs Musokotwane (Katombora) asked the Minister of Education:

(a)    how many pupils completed Grade 12 in 1999, 2000             and 2001;

(b)    how many of these were girls; and

(c)    what is the total number of pupils in (a) above who             were admitted into universities and colleges.

The Minister of Education (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, in 1999, 26,577 pupils wrote their Grade 12 examinations. In 2000, a total of 27,107 Grade 12 pupils wrote their examinations while in 2001, 29,918 pupils did.

In 1999, a total of 10,016 girls wrote Grade 12 examinations while in 2000, 10,415 girls wrote Grade 12 examinations. There were 11,573 girls who wrote Grade 12 examinations in 2001.

Admissions to universities were as follows: a total of 3,672 male students were admitted to our two universities in 1999. In 2000, a total of 3,273 male students were admitted to our 
two universities while in 2001, there were 1,373 male students.

The figures for the female students were as follows: during the 1999 academic year, 1,413 female students were admitted to our two universities, while in 2000, 1, 319 female students were admitted. In 2001, only 403 female students were admitted to the two universities.

With regard to admissions to our colleges, in 1999, 1,745 male students were admitted to teacher training colleges. In 2000, 1,856 male students were admitted to our colleges while in 2001, 2,462 were admitted.

In 1999, 1, 770 female students were admitted while in 2000, there were 1, 911. For the academic year 2001, there were a total of 2,533 admissions.

Thank you, Sir.


163. Miss Sialumba (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a)    how many foreign nationals were conducting             mining activities in Kalomo District as at 31st July,             2002;

(b)    what measures are in place to protect local females             from abuse by these foreigners; and

(c)    what measures are in place to prevent environmental             degradation caused by mining activities in Kalomo             District.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Kazala-Laski): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament may wish to know that there are four companies conducting mining activities in Kalomo District whose directors/shareholders are foreigners.

Sir, my ministry is not aware of any reports purporting any form of abuse of local females by foreign directors. Possibly, the Ministry of Home Affairs may know.

Mr Speaker, measures to prevent environmental degradation are being undertaken through educational visits and sensitisation workshops (road shows) conducted by my ministry, as well as interested Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs). There are statutory requirements these companies have to comply with.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Sialumba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware 
that there is a lot of illegal mining taking place? I make reference to the foreigners who have settled there from West Africa.

Mr Kazala-Laski: Mr Speaker, that information is valid and I would appreciate it if the hon. Member could come to the office and give us that data.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like to know whether the hon. Minister is aware of the same issue at the Broken Hill Mine in Kabwe. The credibility of the investors who have been given concessions to mine lead and zinc is questionable. I do not know what measures you put in place to secure the lives of the local people who are mining in Kabwe because there was an environmental test which was done which shows a high level of lead poisoning to the people who are mining there. There is no safety for the people who are mining there.

Mr Mulela: Mr Speaker, the mining taking place in Kabwe is different from what we are discussing now.

I thank you, Sir.


164. Mr Nzowa asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a)    who the owners of Kagem mines were as at 31st             July, 2002; and

(b)    who the directors of Kagem mines were as at the             same date.

Mr Kazala-Laski: Mr Speaker, Kagem mines, as at 31st July 2002, were owned by the Government with 55 per cent shares and by Hagura Mining Limited with 45 per cent shares.

The following were the Directors of Kagem mines as at 31st July, 2002:


Mr S Mpishi (Chairman)    Mr G Ichaki
Mr D Diangamo        Mr G Gupta
Mr A Gupta
Mr E Harel

Mr Speaker, I thank you.


166. Mr Simenda asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when auditors will be appointed to check on the usage of the Constituency Development Fund since its 


Mr Chitala: Mr Speaker, in response to the question, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing conducted audit inspections on the usage of the Constituency Development Fund for the years 1995 through to 1998. This was done after special funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning was accessed. The House may also wish to know that the Constituency Development Fund does not have a component of audit funds. Therefore, it always becomes difficult to audit this fund as the ministry has, all the time, to request for special funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

However, in spite of all this, selected constituencies where the ministry has received complaints, have been audited using the resources from Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what action he intends to take, if he has not done so, to the people who have embezzled these funds. I would also like to know why the funding is done on a selective basis and when we expect to receive funding for this year’s allocation.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, action will always be taken when the Auditor-General finds it fit to be taken. The report usually goes to the Auditor-General and he always takes appropriate action.

Mr Speaker, yesterday, I mentioned the release for the next CDF to constituencies. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should be able to enlighten us on this one. But I would like to advise my colleague to look at this report. This report, I am sure, is in the custody of every Member of Parliament. It is the Action-Taken Report on the first Report of the Committee on Local Governance, Housing and Chiefs’ Affairs and it is for the Third Session of the Eighth National Assembly which was appointed on 3rd February, 1999. I am sure we have copies given out to Members of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, if they do not have some, we shall readily give them so that people can know what transpired in their constituencies. A lot of districts have been covered here.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muleya (Choma): Mr Speaker, considering that everything is going up in terms of price and the Constituency 
Development Fund has been static, is the hon. Minister considering reviewing the figure upwards so that it can be meaningful in its application in the constituencies?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member would be 

doing this House a good service by proposing or moving a motion to propose an amount which he thinks would befit the present situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapita (Mwinilunga West): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm whether the guidelines have changed regarding the CDF and that the District Administrators will now determine how these funds will be allocated because this is what the councils are telling us.

Further, Sir, there was a court ruling that CDF was misused in Mulobezi. Have investigations been effected?

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister is free to choose one of those questions.


Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that no CDF was misused in Mulobezi. It is just hearsay.

Mr Muleya: It was a court ruling.

Mr Mabenga: It is not a court ruling.

Mr Sikota: It is.

Mr Mabenga: It is not and let us not bring things in this House which have no bearing...

Mr Speaker: Order! Will the hon. Minister answer without paying attention to the dialogue.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, the guidelines for the disbursement of CDF have not changed yet. There are plans to bring in new guidelines for the disbursement of CDF and the draft is ready and will pass through Cabinet and so on and so forth. So, for now, all I can say is that the guidelines that are, at present, in force are binding and the people who are supposed to take part in signing for the moneys are stipulated in the guidelines.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wamulume (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, arising from the answer from the hon. Minister who has referred the issue to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I take it that all hon. Members are interested to hear this matter. May 
we get an answer from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning when we will get the Constituency Development Fund since the year is almost coming to an end.

Mr Speaker: The Chair wishes to guide the hon. Member that the question under discussion does not, in any way, refer to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. It refers to the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing.

Mr Shumina: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing inform us whether in the Estimates that he has submitted to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, he has also included funding for the constituencies which did not get the money last year.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, releases of CDF are given as the money is received.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa: Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister whether CDF is a party fund or not.


Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, CDF stands for Constituency Development Fund. There is no mention of any party there. So, it has no affiliation to any party expenditure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing tell us, today, when we are to receive the CDF. He is in the same Government with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Yesterday he gave us the same response. Could he, please, just tell us.


Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I will repeat what I said yesterday. The release of monies for CDF is actually done by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Once that is done, we will be able to give it out. So, if you have any queries, my colleague here, Hon. Kasonde, should be able to tell you when he will be able to release the funds.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr E. M. M. Musonda (Lupososhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing why he is dragging his feet to send auditors to audit Lupososhi CDF which was last released to the constituency on 25th December, 2001. In January this year, the District Administrator, the former Member of Parliament, together with MMD cadres, convened a meeting and changed the signatories to the account and decided to share the money …
Mr Speaker: Order! This House does not allow story telling. 

Could you ask the question, please?
Mr E. M. M. Musonda: Mr Speaker, why is it that the hon. Minister has dragged his feet in authorising the auditing of Lupososhi CDF, despite the problems faced with this fund having been brought to light by me?
Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, my Deputy Minister explained that we were able to do what we were able to do from 1995 to 1998 with the aid of finances from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and sometimes through, RDCs. Now, you may not be the only constituency which would need to be audited. What should happen is that when we have money, we should be able to audit every district for this purpose.
I thank you, Sir.
Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Speaker: When business was suspended, the House had sufficiently dealt with Question No. 166 on the Order Paper. I would like to guide, here, that effective this portion of the sitting, I will adhere to proper procedure on the issue of main questions and/or supplementary questions. That is, the hon. Member will go directly to the question. There will be no room for debating the question or making long preambles to the question. That is the proper procedure. Please, look up your Member’s Handbook.


167. Mr Katoka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)    why Mwinilunga area in the North-Western                 Province is not considered an agricultural priority             area; and

(b)    whether the North-Western Province benefited from             the Agricultural Diversification Fund in 2001.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Sikatana): Mr Speaker, the Mwinilunga area in North-Western Province is considered as an agricultural area like many other districts of Zambia. This can be noticed by the efforts of the Government and co-operating partners which include the International Fund for Agricultural Development (IFAD), United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), 
the Swedish International Development Agency (CIDA) and the World Bank in running the following programmes in the district:

-    Seed Growers’ Programme
-    Fish Farming Programme
-    Rural Investment Fund Programmes (RIF)

-    The Agricultural Inputs Supply Programme.

With regard to question (b), the Agricultural Diversification Fund in 2001 was a pilot project whose proposal targeted Lusaka, Central and Copperbelt provinces. However, this project did not take off. Therefore, no province or district benefited from this project. Further and better particulars are available for the hon. Member of Parliament if he called at my office.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


168. Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu) asked the Minister of Lands:

    (a )    which Zambians and non-Zambians                 bought land on or along Lake Kariba on             the Zambian side between 1991 and 2001;

    (b)    how much each portion of land cost;

    (c)    how was money realised was spent; and

    (d)    what notable developments have been                 made on the land.

Mr Sokontwe: Mr Speaker, there are no Zambians or non-Zambians who bought land on or along Lake Kariba because the Government or the Ministry of Lands does not sell land although, through the enactment of the 1995 Land Act, the Government recognises the market value of the land.

Mr Speaker, there was no cost of any portion of land sold as I had already answered that the Ministry of Lands does not sell land.

Sir, with regards to part  (c) of the question concerning the money which was realised from the selling of land, no money was raised in this regard as I had already answered but as a ministry, once somebody is allocated land and we issue a title deed, we charge ground rent which does not fall in this category.

But, with regards to question (d), information on the development of land along Lake Kariba can be obtained from the Siavonga, Sinazongwe and Kalomo district councils.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, first of all, I am not comfortable with the response that has been supplied to the hon. Minister by his officials. That information is misleading. It is common knowledge that, in fact, most of the land in that area has been taken up …

Mr Speaker: Order! You may go direct to the question as you were just about to do before I ordered you down.

Will you, please, continue.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not aware that most of the land along that area has been taken up?

Mr Sokontwe: Mr Speaker, yes, most of the land has been taken up, but this has been an arrangement between those people who got land and thereafter decided to sell it.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Lands knows that they allocate title deeds. How many Zambians and non-Zambians were given title deeds along the Lake Kariba stretch?

Mr Sokontwe: Mr Speaker, we issue title deeds according to recommendations from the district councils. It is just very unfortunate that I cannot answer the question my uncle has asked me as it requires a bit of time to research.


169. Mr Nang’omba (Mazabuka) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the Zambia Police Station in Mazabuka will be adequately provided with the following facilities:

(i)    motor vehicles;

(ii)    a radio communication system; and

(iii)    housing.

Mr Mapushi: The Zambia Police Station in Mazabuka will be adequately provided with motor vehicles, a radio communication system and housing when funds are made available.

Thank you, Sir.

170. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs:

(a)    what the criteria for appointing officials to serve in             Diplomatic Missions Abroad are; and

(b)    when the Government will implement the policy of             appointing professional diplomats to serve in             Diplomatic Missions.

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Miss Namugala): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that there are three categories of officials appointed to serve in Zambian Missions Abroad and different criteria apply in their appointments. The first category involves political appointees who are usually the Heads of Mission. They are appointed at the discretion of the Head of State.

   The second category covers civil servants employed by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. These are appointed into the Foreign Service by the Public Service Commission upon the recommendations of the ministry and based on the following criteria: academic qualifications of the officer; practical experience and performance levels of the officer; general conduct and suitability of the officer to serve in Missions Abroad; and availability of vacancies in Missions Abroad.

The third category covers seconded officers who perform specialised functions from other ministries – e.g. Defence Attach‘es, Trade Attach‘es, Press Attach‘es, Immigration Attach‘es, etc. The criteria for selection of this category is determined by the seconding ministry/institution.

The Government has always had the policy of appointing professionals to serve in Zambian Diplomatic Missions. To this end, the majority of our staff in the missions have been professionals. Recently, the ministry sent seventeen (17) members of staff from Headquarters to serve in the Missions Abroad. It is the intention of the ministry to fully professionalise its Foreign Service in due course.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, in view of the numerous Government trips abroad, is the Government mindful of the fact that they are under-utilising our Missions Abroad by not giving them tasks and instead travelling a lot to undertake tasks which should be assigned to the Missions Abroad?

Miss Namugala: The meetings abroad normally require political representation. So, hon. Ministers travel when it is required of them to be at those meetings. However, the members of the Missions Abroad are still utilised in that they form part of the Government delegation.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what has happened to the school of diplomats which MMD promised in 1991. It seems the school has died a natural death.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr 

[Dr Mwansa]

Speaker, the School of Diplomacy in International Relations Studies is operational. In fact, the 17 members of staff that the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs mentioned in her answer graduated from this same school. The school is in full operation, Sir.

Thank you, Sir.


171. Mr Shepande (Nangoma) asked the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a)    how many metric tonnes of fertiliser the Nitrogen             Chemicals of Zambia is expected to produce for             the 2002/03 farming season;

(b)    how many metric tonnes of fertiliser are required             countrywide; and

(c)    how the Government is planning to meet thshortfall.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, part of the question can best be answered by the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry because it is questioning the capacity of Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia. But, I will give the answer to those aspects that involve our ministry.

Sir, a total of 9,800 metric tonnes of fertiliser are expected to be produced by Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia for the 2002/03 farming season.

A total of 80,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser is required countrywide and the Government is planning to meet the shortfall through private sector commercial inputs.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives able to tell this House whether there is enough stock of fertiliser for this farming season?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, there are enough stocks of fertiliser for this farming season. The only difference is that because of the tariffs that have been adjusted in favour of farmers that are irrigating, there is bound to be an increase in demand sometime later in the year and towards the first half of next year.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Is the hon. Minister aware that his ministry has only distributed about 20 per cent of the fertiliser required in almost every district in Zambia?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am aware of the stocks already distributed. And because of the balances, the ministry has assigned both its Deputy Minister and the Permanent Secretary in charge of Co-operatives to go from province to province to supervise and ensure that all stocks are delivered not later than 15th November, 2002.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kabaghe (Matero): The hon. Minister has stated that the required fertilisers countrywide are 80,000 metric tonnes. Is this fertiliser related to maize production alone or other crops as well?

Mr Sikatana: The question is related to the 2002/2003 farming schemes that were on. Therefore, the amounts do not include those aspects particularly with regard to commercial farmers who import and procure their own fertiliser.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): I would like the hon. Minister to assure this House whether next year we will not have a repeat of orders being given to companies ordering fertiliser when we have Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia in operation. Is Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia going to be given more money to produce enough fertiliser?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, the Government has started financing and reviving the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia. But because the plant has been dormant for a long time, we had to take precautions not to overload them in the event that there are breakdowns and they fail to render the service. However, all is being done to make sure that come next year, the plant is fully operational and there will be no need for imports.

Mr Hachipuka: Sir, arising from the answer given in part (b), on how many metric tonnes of fertiliser is required countrywide and he has given an answer that it is based on the schemes that the Government has registered. I wish the hon. Minister to reconfirm that the schemes that the Government has supported are based on one hectare per family out of which 80,000 metric tones do not fully address the country’s requirement and hence this country will continue to suffer from hunger.

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, as I stated yesterday, outside these programmes, there is also provision for the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia to lend out fertiliser to co-operatives and to individual farmers. What I know is that, in fact, there are some commercial farmers that we are encouraging to pay upfront in order to assist in the funding for the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia. So, the answer, in short, is that this was with respect to the schemes and it is one lima for the 

PAM and one hectare for the supported scheme.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr P.G. Phiri (Vubwi): Sir, in his integral speech, his Excellency the President made it very clear that fertiliser would be available in all areas and that the farmer would acquire it at any time he wants it. Could the hon. Minister assure this House today that this target would be shot at?

Mr Sikatana: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether you have ever heard of what is called the President’s integral speech.


Mr Sikatana: But I want to assure the hon. Member that we will do all we can and our best to ensure that we abide by the requirements of this country’s agricultural industry.

Thank you, Sir.


172. Mr Kapita (Mwinilunga West) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a)    when Mwinilunga District will be provided with             hydro-electricity; and

(b)    how much the Government spends every month on             diesel power in Mwinilunga.

Mr Manjata: Mr Speaker, my ministry has prioritised the extension of the national grid to all parts of the country. The North-Western Province is one of the areas that was not adequately served by the national grid. However, the province has mini-hydro power potential. Our plans are that Mwinilunga should be served by developing the mini-hydro potential at West Lunga. This project, estimated at US$6.9 million or K32.1 billion, will be developed by the private sector. We envisage that by 2003, work on the project could begin.

With regard to (b), to maintain the diesel generators, the Government, through ZESCO, spends about K200 million every month in the form of diesel and oil. This figure does not include personnel and other costs. This is a very high cost, hence the Government’s desire to replace the generators with hydro-electricity from the West Lunga mini-hydro power project.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapita: Going by the figures that the hon. Deputy Minister has given, surely it makes sense that they should 

instal a hydro-electric power plant in Mwinilunga. K200 million per month …

Mr Speaker: Ask your question, please.

Mr Kapita: Yes, Mr Speaker. The question is: why has it taken more than ten years from the time the study was done before the hydro-electric scheme could be considered?

Mr Manjata: Mr Speaker, it is difficult to start a project minus funding. We had no money and as a result we could not start this project.

Thank you, Sir.



Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Select Committee to scrutinise the appointment of Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga to serve as Clerk of the National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 28th October, 2002.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion being seconded?

Mr Kazenene (Chingola): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, your Parliamentary Select Committee was appointed on 30th September, 2002 pursuant to provisions of Section 3, paragraph 1 of the National Assembly Staff Act, Cap. 257 of the Laws of Zambia, which reads, and I quote:

    “There shall be a Clerk of the National Assembly,             who shall be appointed by the President provided             that no person shall be appointed Clerk unless a             proposal for appointment of that person has been             submitted to the National Assembly and the                 Assembly has resolved that he should be so                 appointed.”  

The terms of reference of your Committee were to scrutinise the appointment of Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga as Clerk of the National Assembly.

In order to ascertain the suitability of the appointee to serve as Clerk of the National Assembly, your Committee made inquiries from the State investigatory agencies. These were the Zambia Security Intelligence Service, the Anti-Corruption 

[Mr Patel]

Commission, Zambia Police and the Drug Enforcement Commission.

Mr Speaker, your Committee sought the input and views of the Law Association of Zambia, the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs and the Attorney-General, the hon. Deputy Minister at State House, the Secretary to Cabinet and the appointee herself. The submissions received from all these stakeholders and the appointee herself assisted your Committee, not only to establish the suitability of the appointee to the position, but also to understand the necessary requirements for appointment to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are satisfied that the appointee has no criminal record, no corrupt or drug related traces or reports.

Mr Speaker, the security checks made on Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga also revealed that the appointee has no negative traces of family or external relations whose nature or character could impact negatively on the appointee’s discharge of duties of Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, submissions by the other institutions on the appointee’s qualifications and experience and professional suitability demonstrated that Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga is an outstanding lawyer with twenty (20) years of relevant experience in legislative drafting. The appointee is also said to have exhibited professionalism in the performance of her duties and that she is principled enough to render appropriate services to the National Assembly without prejudice.

Mr Speaker, it was further revealed to your Committee that the appointee’s career as Parliamentary Draftsman has exposed her to the rules, procedures and practices of the National Assembly and was, therefore, well suited to provide useful legal and procedural advice to the House.

Mr Speaker, from the verbal and written submissions received, your Committee are satisfied that the appointee has the requisite experience and qualifications to serve as Clerk of the National Assembly.

Your Committee, therefore, take this rare opportunity to respectfully submit the name of Mrs Doris Katebe Katai Mwinga for ratification by this august House as Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, allow me, now, to reflect on two salient issues your committee deliberated at length and which we believe are directly relevant to the welfare of the National Assembly.

Your Committee observed that the doctrine of the 

separation of powers calls for the distribution of powers among two or more independent organs of the State. It requires organisational arrangements which enable each organ to exercise its designated powers without being obliged to submit to the dictates of others. None of the three organs is superior to the other and none is answerable to the other for the usefulness of its discretionary powers. Responsibility, powers and controls are disbursed rather than centralised in one place.

Mr Speaker, the usual means of guaranteeing the independence of the three organs of the State include the creation and conformity of the powers by the written instruments such as the Constitution or the    Charter which is unchangeable by the exclusive action of any one organ; and  provision of a separation of personnel for each branch and for either prohibiting each organ of the   State from removing the Members of the others or limiting powers of removal, if it be granted by establishing an extremely difficult removal procedure and by barring procedure for political reasons.

Mr Speaker, however, if one organ was permitted to select the personnel of another, the term of the appointees should be fairly long and the powers to remove should be denied the appointing authority. It is strongly believed that control of the appointees is lost.

Mr Speaker, looking at the previous appointment and the termination procedures of the services of the former Clerk of the National Assembly, it is clear that the law was not observed, respected or complied with by either the Executive or the House since 1991.

In view of the above observations, Sir, your Committee recommended that the appointment and termination of the services of the Clerk of the National Assembly must always be done in accordance with the law and procedures of the House.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further note that the appointment of the Clerk of the National Assembly by the President as provided by the law, today, contradicts the principles of the doctrine of separation of powers which forbid the appointment of personnel of one organ by another. The House may wish to know that in the 1973 Constitution of Zambia, the powers to appoint the Clerk were vested in the Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Patel: This is how it should be if you are to uphold the doctrine of separation of powers.

Furthermore, a random survey carried out by your Committee of what obtained in other Commonwealth 

Parliament, such as Australia, Canada, India, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe, confirms the same position.

Mr Speaker, in this regard, your Committee recommended that Section 3 of the National Assembly Staff Act Cap. 257 of the Laws of Zambia be amended to provide for the appointment of the Clerk of the National Assembly by the Hon. Mr Speaker, subject to ratification by the House.

Finally, Sir, I wish to thank the hon. Members of your Committee who worked tirelessly throughout the course of the proceedings for the contributions, co-operation and dedication to the work of the Committee. I also wish to express my gratitude to the Office of the Speaker of the National Assembly and the officials who constituted our secretariat for the valuable advice and services rendered to your Committee. I also wish to extend my sincere thanks to the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for the valuable information.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I wish to thank you for nominating us to be Members of this Select Committee to consider the appointment of Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga as Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia.

Sir, it is now my honour and privilege to present your Committee’s report with the sincere hope that the report will receive the unanimous support of this august House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Kazenene: Now, Mr Speaker. 

Sir, in seconding this important motion so ably moved by the Chairman, allow me to express and extend my profound thanks and gratitude to you, Sir, and the staff in the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, who serviced your committee, for the support and guidance that was provided to your Select Committee during their deliberations.

Sir, I would like to extend my gratitude to the Chairman for the able manner in which he presided over the deliberations of your Committee. Allow me to also extend my gratitude to the Members of your Committee who, with the interest of the nation at heart, deliberated in a spirit of togetherness to enable your Committee arrive at the recommendations we are submitting to this august House.

Sir, it is incumbent upon me, at this point, to pay special tribute to all the witnesses who appeared before your Committee for their diligent and steadfast contributions to 

this important assignment. Mr Speaker, as indicated earlier, the speech by the Chairman is very elaborate and, therefore, my task is very simple.

Your Committee, Sir, takes cognisance of the important role of the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly to the governance and development of this country. It follows, therefore, that the candidate for the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly should not only be a person of high integrity, but also enlightened, experienced and professional in his or her conduct both on and off duty.

Sir, the role of the Clerk of the National Assembly is cardinal to the smooth operation of the legislature as one of the supreme organs of the State. For instance, the Clerk, as chief advisor to the Speaker and Members of the House, must be able to exercise independence of mind, defend and stand by the decisions of this House.

The composition of the current House poses the greatest challenge to the holder of the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly. Mr Speaker, I am glad to inform this august House that this and many other factors or attributes were thoroughly considered by your Committee and your Committee were satisfied that the appointee is suitable to serve as Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, all the witnesses attested to the fact that the appointee has a high degree of independence of thought and professionalism in her conduct. Furthermore, the appointee demonstrated her commitment and interest in serving the people of Zambia even when she could have taken on a much more lucrative job in the private sector as a legal practitioner. These and other factors epitomised the Committee’s approbation of the appointee as a suitable candidate for the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, the appointee carries a further advantage in that her appointment underscores the New Deal administration’s resolve to promote gender equality based not only on mere gender for the sake of it, but on qualification, professionalism, experience and ability to deliver by the individual. This, Mr Speaker, is a departure from rhetoric without any measures of implementation.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are convinced beyond any reasonable doubt that the choice of Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga as Clerk of the National Assembly of Zambia is a correct one and, therefore, strongly urge this House to ratify the appointee as Clerk of National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Princess Nakatindi Wina (Sesheke): Thank you very 

[Princess Nakatindi]

much, Mr Speaker, for having accorded me the chance to speak. I am not feeling very well today, anyway.

Mr Speaker, much as I herald the appointment of the incoming Clerk of this august House, Mrs Mwinga, I would like to remind this House that this House is autonomous.Maybe, there are some people here who are new. I want to give them a little motherly advice that we are not here as a rubber stamp. We are here as a governing and legislative body.

Sir, if you are going to allow the New Deal Government to hire and fire at random, I do not know what will happen next either to the Chair, which I am not supposed to refer to, Mr Speaker, you will bear with me, or to myself. We can be hired at any …

The Vice-President interjected.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: Your Honour, the Vice-President, you could be the next one in the line.


Princess Nakatindi Wina: So, we have to really respect this august House as an autonomous body. We cannot be coming here to be used as tools for ratification of people who are replacing people who are either fired or retired at twenty-four hours’ notice. Mr Speaker, we have to guard the rules and norms of Parliament. We are here representing the whole of Zambia either for the Government or in Opposition. If we are not careful with what we do in this House one of these days, fifty or sixty of us might be sorry because we can be fired within one hour or be arrested by whoever it could be.

Mr Speaker, I am talking about myself. My husband was a Deputy Speaker in this House and at one time we supported a Bill.

Dr Sondashi: Was he fired?

Princess Nakatindi Wina: He was arrested, not even  fired, Crocodile. Oh, I am sorry.


Princess Nakatindi Wina: My husband and I were detained for seventeen solid days, Mr Speaker, after having passed a Bill in this House. We were being polite because we were in Government. He was a Deputy Speaker, I was even a hon. Minister, but at the end of the day, we were arrested. So, you have to be very careful. The people who agreed to our arrest are now inside and I am outside and I am 

even in Parliament.


Princess Nakatindi Wina: So, you have to be careful about the rules, appointments and ratifications you make. You have to sleep and think and read about them. Do not just be carried by the spur of the moment because one is carrying a flag. Mr Speaker, I have seen a lot of miraculous and illegal things happen in this august House. Some of them are really illegal. They are taken either personally or emotionally. I am referring to the Mactribouy issue whereby when you steal a car or anything to do with stealing, you go to jail without bail. You know who are in jail without bail at the moment. They are the people who were whistling around town, driving all the latest limousines and so forth. Where are the limousines? They are on exhibit and the owners are behind the cells.

So, Sir, I really beg this august House to study and really convince themselves that what they are doing is right, without fear or favour. Regarding the previous Clerk, I would say, whether people are going to talk about the renewal of his contract or not, that is irrelevant. Why did the New Deal Government accept a man who did not renew his contract? It is because there was a deal drawn by the previous MMD and the new MMD. It should not have been allowed in the first place.

I do not think it is fair to just fire or retire a Clerk who has served for so many years, who knows a lot about this House and who knows a lot of intrigues about this Government. I was a hon. Minister and I am speaking from experience. I have always told you that I have served from every bench, from the middle bench to the Front Bench and back to the back bench.

Mr Sibetta: Correct!

Princess Nakatindi Wina: I am here not that I am a
hon. Minister but, maybe, it was just an honour, maybe, from the Clerks-at-the-Table that I am in the front. I am not a Minister.

So, Sir, I really urge the New Deal Government to be a bit patient in firing and hiring the people who have served this country. Some of the decisions which were made here, Sir, even from the previous Speaker, Hon. Dr Robinson Nabulyato, OGCF, who is a living soul, were not fair. I really pray that this thing does not happen again.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, I wish to 

draw your attention to page 4 of the report, as I support the motion.

Mr Speaker, I support the motion in the sense that it is not a question of gender but a question of ability. However, I seek the indulgence of the House for our colleagues in Government to be a little bit careful in terms of the information they are giving us. Page 4, paragraph 8, reads, and I quote:

    “The Secretary to the Cabinet added that the                 ratification of Mrs Mwinga’s appointment would             bear true testimony to the New Deal Government’s             commitment to promote affirmative gender action.”

Sir, what I am advancing is that if you go to the Electoral Commission of Zambia or if you go to the parliamentary documents which this House gives us through the Clerk of the National Assembly, there is nothing known as a New Deal Government. There is only MMD Government.

So, Sir, these are official parliamentary documents which are being submitted here where a Secretary to the Cabinet who is supposed to advise Cabinet Office, hon. Ministers and His Excellency- I think let us be careful, hon. Members.

Mr Speaker, if we could turn to page 9, paragraph 3 of the same report, and with your permission may I also quote:

    “In other words, hon. Members of Parliament, as             law makers who were conversant with the law,             acquiesced and encouraged the whole scenario to             continue for a long period. He submitted that, in f            uture, hon. Members of Parliament should be pro-            active and correct any irregularities in time.”

Mr Speaker, this is an indictment. I cannot run away from it even if I am a new Member of Parliament because of succession.

Mr Speaker, if we turn, again, to page 10, …


Hon. Members: Just turn, what are you talking about?

Mr Mukwakwa: … paragraph 4, Mr Speaker, I will not comment on this paragraph because I had already commented on something else yesterday.

Mr Speaker, the last paragraph on page 10, may I also quote just one sentence: ‘as regards equality of treatment and how the appointee intends to treat Members of Parliament 
whether from the ruling or opposition parties. The appointee stated that she would treat hon. Members of Parliament equally.’

Now, if you refer to page 11 …


Hon. Opposition Members: Just turn!

Mr Mukwakwa: … the second paragraph, Mr Speaker, which is also just one paragraph. My quotations are not very long, and I quote:

    “Commenting on whether she would support female             Members of Parliament, the appointee informed             your Committee that she had a soft spot for the             female Members of Parliament and wished to work             closely with them in order to identify and develop             their unique abilities in the interest of the National             Assembly and the country.”

So, Mr Speaker, in terms of hon. Members of Parliament who are ladies, we have more here, on the Opposition side, than on the other side, the Government side. Therefore, if on the other side, they do not wish to recommend or support this motion then, these are the issues we are talking about.


Mr Mukwakwa: The only person who can give an order is the Hon. Mr Speaker, not somebody who is a Member of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Address the Chair!

Mr Mukwakwa: You are Government and you are supposed to know the rules.

Mr Speaker, through you, if we can go now to page 12 and I am concluding …


Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, I will not repeat the last paragraph before conclusion because Hon. Patel has already mentioned it, but I would like to appeal to the incoming Clerk of the National Assembly that she must immediately embark on the following: bring in the Auditor-General so that we put our House in order.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa: Ensure that she brings in the work which has been done for the reforms of Parliament through one of these Committees.

Mr Speaker, there are situations where we are getting the Daily Parliamentary Debates very late or at times not at all, including Government Gazettes.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate on the motion which has been ably presented by the all weather Hon. Dipak Patel and seconded by my traditional cousin from Chingola Constituency, Hon. Kazenene.

I also wish to thank the Members of the Committee, Mr Speaker, for a job well done.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, this, to me, seems to be a non-controversial motion …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … in that it has been cleared by most of our security agencies. I am not like my colleagues on your right, Government Members, who, when the Law Association of Zambia states that this person is not supposed to be in that position, they say, no, that person must be in that position, because it is coming from the Government.

Laughter. {mospagebreak}

Mr Tetamashimba: We believe, Mr Speaker, that when the Anti-Corruption Commission, which I always believe is led by a person of high integrity,  including the new leadership in the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) and the Zambia Police, including the Central Intelligence Agency which is, I think, the Zambia Security Intelligence Service, their submissions cannot be doubted.

We wish, Mr Speaker, to support the ratification of Mrs Mwinga, obviously not just on the gender aspect. Even if she had some problems, I would have supported her if it meant on gender aspect. I think, on this woman, we are speaking because she is professionally qualified to hold the position of Clerk of the National Assembly.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I have a comment to make and, please, allow me to read what came from the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General, on page 8 of the report, and it reads:

    “The hon. Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-            General submitted that the President acted so as to             assist in resolving the problem and he acted to assist             the National Assembly as the hon. Members had             omitted and/or neglected to take any action towards             the removal of the former Clerk. The hon. Members             of Parliament were not pro-active in resolving this             
    problem. In the end, therefore, the President who             was supposed to be the appointing authority acted             and removed the former Clerk and, in his place,             appointed Mrs Doris Mwinga for the position. He             went on to say that, even if the Clerk was appointed             by ‘contract’ contrary to the National Assembly Staff             Act, the President could still correct the situation             by removing him.”

Mr Speaker, the submission by the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General was an attack on the National Assembly and specifically on the Hon. Mr Speaker himself.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Sibetta: Yes, the Hon. Mr Speaker must be protected!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, you know very well that the hon. Members of the Opposition, led some time back by the mover of this motion, and the hon. Member of Parliament for Zambezi East, were the ones here saying that we need the former Clerk to be ratified. We were not saying remove him, but we were talking about ratifying him. And it is the people on the right side of the House who were against our comments that it was wrong and illegal to keep a person without being ratified.

Mr Sibetta: Shame!

Mr Tetamashimba: I am very surprised, Mr Speaker. I know that you have always said that we should not mention names of people outside the House but mention names of people who are inside the House so that they can defend themselves. But the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General is blaming this House instead of blaming His Honour the Vice-President who was the chief advisor to the former President about the non-ratification of the former Clerk.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I am saying that hon. Ministers who were there in Cabinet, and I can see some of them here such as the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry; the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing; the hon. Minister of Community Development and 
Social Welfare; and the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training who were supposed to advise former President Chiluba when we made comments last year. When Hon. Dr Sondashi was on this side of the House, they did not listen to him when he said, “Look, let us just ratify him and do something.” Today, the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs, instead of admitting that it was the fault of this Government, 

is trying to include us in their wrong doings. We deny that, Mr Speaker.

Hon. UPND Members: Shame!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I want to comment on the appointment of the Clerk of the National Assembly. I agree with the submission of your Committee that the hon. Mr Speaker is supposed to be the person to appoint the Clerk of the National Assembly. Unfortunately, our Constitution, which was worked on by our colleagues, whom we thought were going to start bringing changes to the Constitution, still states that the President should continue appointing the Clerk of the National Assembly. But I want to say this, Mr Speaker, that a Clerk of the National Assembly should serve at the pleasure of that Parliament.

It is not right for a Clerk of the National Assembly to serve outside the five-year period of the Parliament that gave that person employment, because another Parliament should have the power to remove him or her. Therefore, I think that, as we make changes to the Constitution, there is need for a Clerk of the National Assembly to be on contract during the period of that Parliament. 

Otherwise, you are going to have somebody who, if that person is a Permanent Secretary, every three years will be getting gratuity while in this case, the person we are ratifying today would serve about eight or nine years, during which time, her colleagues who are Permanent Secretaries will get gratuities three times. Every three years there is gratuity when, actually, with her she will not get anything because she is employed on pensionable conditions of service until she reaches fifty-five years. I thought that we needed to look at that.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to comment on the former Clerk. We were told by this Government that Mr Chibesakunda was serving illegally from 1994, and it is very proud to say that. I know the reason why and it is because MMD is divided. All those who were hon. Ministers up to last year were called ‘MMD Ministers’ but this time they are calling themselves ‘New Deal Ministers’.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: So, what they are trying to do is to say that since this person who served as Clerk was serving under the MMD Government, they want to run away from 


Mr Sibetta: Yes!

Mr Tetamashimba: Instead of them saying, since it is not his fault that he served without being ratified, therefore, 

this person must honourably be given his benefits, they are trying to run away in this report. I would have expected the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General to comment that, even if this person was supposed to have left in 1994, the mere fact that we let him work up to almost the whole of this year, he is supposed to have been ratified. 

In our discussions, Mr Speaker, we are appealing to you that, yes, Mr Chibesakunda has overstayed at National Assembly, I think he is about sixty, but he must be considered as having been ratified by this Parliament so that he goes away with his full package. Otherwise, we, as Members of Parliament ,shall be seen that we are trying to please the Head of State.

There are some people who believe that his removal is as a result of the Clerk wanting the First Lady to come and testify before a parliamentary Committee when, in fact, it is not. So, we need to give him all his benefits up to the time of his retirement so that now this man will go an honourable person. We hope that you are not going to grab the VX that Parliament bought for him. Let him take that vehicle because I believe we should have ratified him. 

And you, the colleagues on the right of Mr Speaker, please, follow what we tell you here in the Opposition. Whenever we tried to talk about ratification, you were the first, especially hon. Ministers, to blame us. Please, we appeal to you to give this man, who has retired, and it is good the President has helped us,  his full package so that he goes a happy man.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, it is the duty of us all here to defend the Chair. The Chair cannot debate for itself here.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: It is our duty to defend the Chair and the President. We have all taken oaths to defend the President and to defend the Speaker. But there are some of you there …


Mr Sibetta: … who are misinforming the President. Mr Chibesakunda is not an angel. None of us here are angels. We are all mortals. And so, you should know that you will also go out …


Mr Sibetta: … from this Chamber. But now, it is very important that real men and women and real Zambians are called upon to protect the human rights of an individual.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, while Mr Chibesakunda is not an angel, the President has written to Mr Chibesakunda to tell him that the Anti-Corruption Commission were investigating him. But when you look at page 2, paragraph 10, the Anti-Corruption Commission Director of Operations was the first to inform your Committee, which I think has done a good job to bring out all the preliminary issues and we must deal with preliminary issues before we come to approving this new Clerk who is coming.

Mr B. M. Malumbe, informed your Committee that the Anti-Corruption Commission had no adverse report against the appointee to warrant her disqualification.

Mr Speaker, I have spoken to Mr Chibesakunda and I have read the letter from the President and the letter from the President ...

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Luena, like most of you here, is a long time Member of this House and he ought to know that he cannot refer to privileged correspondence between persons outside this House. If he has had an opportunity of looking at the letter he is referring to, keep that close to your chest. Do not refer to it in this Chamber unless you are prepared to lay it on the Table in original, which I do not think you can do, and I do not think the Chair would allow you to do so, anyway. Please, let us debate the ratification of the person to whom the motion refers.

There may be no harm in learning from the past, but the most important thing is what is before us now. Could you, please, refer to the motion, whether you are in support or otherwise. 

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, this is Mr Speaker’s motion, prepared by his Committee which has been put on the Floor of the House for debate. I am here to defend the Chair and this House.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: And I would like to counsel this House that we are tired of litigation at the Supreme Court and High Court. Mr Chibesakunda is ready to go, but let us do it properly.

Mr Mushala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sibetta: Let us do it properly!


Mr Mushala: Mr Speaker, I would like your serious guidance. In the debate of the hon. Member for Luena, he quoted the Anti-Corruption Commission where they are saying that there was no adverse report against the appointee. I would like to find out if the hon. Member on the Floor is in order to mislead the House that the appointee is the former Clerk. He is referring to a letter addressed to the former Clerk who is not the appointee in this case. Is he in order to mislead this House when he has not read the report properly?


Mr Speaker: The point of order being raised by the hon. Minister for North-Western Province, although valid, should be couched in terms of the fact that I have already guided the hon. Member for Luena to avoid the manner in which he was debating and to deal with the subject of the motion before the House. I believe the hon. Member for Luena has taken note of my guidance.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister for North-Western Province is my nephew.


Mr Sibetta: This is not guerrilla warfare...


Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, Mr Chibesakunda is ready to go.

Hon. Members: He is gone.

Mr Sibetta: He is not yet gone legally and technically. We should process things properly because we are all Zambians. Let us process Mr Chibesakunda’s exit properly. It is very important that this House is seen to be doing things properly.

Princess Nakatindi Wina: We are not a rubber-stamp.

Mr Sibetta: We are not a rubber stamp. I thank my niece, Hon. Princess Nakatindi Wina. 

Mr Speaker, your Committee have done a good job. They have raised preliminary issues. One of them is on page 7 (3) “The Clerk may be removed from office by resolution of the 

Assembly for inability to discharge the functions of his office, whether arising from infirmity of his body or mind, or for misbehavior but shall not be otherwise removed.”

That is an Act of Parliament. So, let this same Committee put before us a small report so that Mr Chibesakunda is orderly retired. The President is not the one who should dismiss Mr Chibesakunda, but this House with you in the Chair, Mr Speaker. And Mr Chibesakunda, as a humble citizen of this country, never mind whether he is a bad or a good man, is willing to submit himself to your Chair.

Your Committee should process properly, for us, in this House, under this Act of Parliament, which gives your House the authority to dismiss Mr Chibesakunda, to dismiss Mr Chibesakunda. It is not supposed to be the President. This country has separation of powers. If we are going to agree to what the President has been misinformed by people like you there...


Mr Sibetta: ... who are bent on misinforming this President. No wonder he is sick all the time.


Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, it is your office which should ask this same Committee to call Mr Chibesakunda so that they prepare a small report for us so that a process can start to dismiss Mr Chibesakunda. We should start by ratifying Mr Chibesakunda and then dismiss him.

Mr Speaker, we have people who have benefited from the Zamtrop Account who have been retired properly. Mr Chibesakunda is not mentioned in the Zamtrop Account. Why do we not give him the benefit of doubt? Let the same Committee, under Hon. Dipak Patel, call him and put an addendum to you which will be laid on the Table that we process Mr Chibesakunda’s retirement. We should retire him after we have ratified him, then we will be talking about this beautiful young lady who is coming – Doris. But for us to bring in Doris before we properly exit Mr Chibesakunda, we will be walking into a legal trap. Mr Chibesakunda will go to the courts of law for wrongful dismissal.

You should forget whether Mr Chibesakunda’s contract was ratified or whether he has served for over sixty years. There are Judges who are over sixty years and this country has renewed their contracts. Furthermore, the hon. Minister 
of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General was asked to state the law under which the former Clerk was removed from office. The hon. Minister stated that this was a peculiar case that was clouded with various constitutional and legal questions. He, however, submitted that the removal was not backed by law.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sibetta: It was debatable whether after reaching the retirement age, the contracts under which he served as a Clerk were legal. We can make and dispose of any law, including impeaching a President here.


Mr Sibetta: We have all the powers to do so. We are the final authority. The Chair must be protected. 

Mr Chibesakunda must be recalled by the same Committee so that we can wind up his exit. If he has problems with the Anti-Corruption Commission or anywhere else, that is the business outside this House. To dismiss him on the whims of somebody else, without this House properly processing it, will be creating billions of kwacha for Mr Chibesakunda which is supposed to be used for the development for this country.

He is our man and highly regarded in and outside this country. Mr Speaker, I am your first Vice-President for the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. I know that Mr Chibesakunda is highly respected in the Commonwealth. Whether he is a bad man here, limps or walks straight, ...


Mr Kunda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I thought this motion was about the ratification of …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: … the candidate whose motion is on the Floor of the House. Is the hon. Member in order to debate extensively on Mr Chibesakunda who is not due for ratification before this House?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General is raising a point of order on which I have already guided the hon. Member for Luena. 
Stay with the motion. The motion is very clear: ratification of the person named here. You have belaboured that other point and it is sufficient. Do you have any other issues to raise on this matter? If not, I have a long list of other hon. Members who would like to debate this issue. So, if you have nothing else to add, apart from what you have already 

[Mr Speaker]

said, please, take your seat so that other hon. Members can contribute. They have other views as well and they want to help us arrive at a decision.

Will the hon. Member for Luena, please, wind up his debate.

Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, there are men and women on both sides of the House who feel this matter has not been properly handled. If the Government does not withdraw, they will be jeorpadising the appointment of the new Clerk because we will move an amendment. It is not our wish to move an amendment on this motion. We would like to assist the Government because even the Attorney-General himself was not properly endorsed by this House. We have kept quiet because we have to respect him.


Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Luena prides himself as being one of the longest serving Members of this House. He ought to know that he cannot revive an issue which has already been properly dealt with in this House, including the very issue he is referring to. It is an offence under our procedures.

 I will give the hon. Member for Luena one more chance to wind up his debate.


Mr Sibetta: Mr Speaker, one of your attributes is patience.


Mr Sibetta: I know because I have dealt with you for a long time. You have been very patient with people like me.


Mr Sibetta: That is one of the very good attributes of the Chair.

Mr Speaker, we want to serve this country. We want to save money which this Government is throwing left, right and centre. We would like the powers to be given to you to propose a name of somebody that we can ratify. Whether you propose Mrs Doris Mwinga will be up to you. We can assure you, we will ratify her.

However, we want to counsel the Chair that Mr Chibesakunda must exit properly. If you do not want to take this advice, you will remember me. I know that my brother, His Honour the Vice-President, is magnanimous, but it is 

time this motion was withdrawn, even for a day or two, to give your Committee an opportunity to exit Mr Chibesakunda properly so that we can endorse the new Clerk. If you do not do that, there will be serious legal implications. This House should not be brought into disrepute.

Mr Speaker, we are your Opposition and our role is to step on the cones of this Government whether it is the President or anybody else. We will step on your cones, if you do things wrongly.


Mr Sibetta: This matter has not been handled properly. Mr Chibesakunda should go, but in a proper manner.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I want to thank you for having afforded me this opportunity to debate on the ratification of the appointment of Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga to be Clerk of this National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, as usual, I am a person who recognises that people are suffering and, therefore, I would not want to be irrelevant on important matters, but to debate in the way I understand things in this country. As Parliamentarians, we are sent here to put things straight.

First of all, I would like to congratulate the Committee on a job well done in coming up with this report. I also want to commend the chairman, the seconder and the hon. Members, whose names we have heard here, for doing a great job.

Mr Speaker, before I support or oppose the motion, I have something to put on record. What we are saying is for the good of those who are in Government today. They should not think that they will be there forever. I think, at a later stage, they will also sit here and assist in ensuring that the law is  respected in this country.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Princess Nakatindi Wina, who is my mother, suffered for this country with my father Hon. Sikota Wina. Whatever they are saying is true because they were in Government. How they differed is on principle. Whatever they say should be taken as wisdom which is coming from the Opposition.

I would like to advise hon. Ministers and their deputies and back-benchers, who will be hon. Ministers at any time, to look at the Laws of Zambia. We have the Executive and the Legislature, which is Parliament. The Constitution of Zambia had a clean record until the MMD came into power. They started manipulating it to suit the Government of the 

day. That is a danger to Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the powers given to the President are too much. This is what has perpetuated ideas like Wa muyaya and Third Term. The appointment of people who are holding high offices like the Clerk of the National Assembly, Commissioners and others should not be left to the President alone. This is because it tampers with the security of the tenure of office of these officers. For example, a President can just wake up one morning and fire that person because he has differed with him on what is right. This is dangerous to a young democracy such as Zambia.

Mr Speaker, those in Government should not think that we are saying this just because we are in Opposition. That is not the case. We want officials holding high offices to have job security. We want to avoid being a rubber stamp. The current Constitution of Zambia and the National Assembly Staff Act are making us a rubber stamp. No doubt about it. I have been here under your leadership. You were once a hon. Minister in various ministries in the MMD Government and you have always been a man we cherish. That is why we stand firm for you to continue with your leadership.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr L. L. Phiri: I would like those in Government to also learn that, as leaders, they must try to put proper leadership in place so that when they retire, Zambia will continue with proper leadership.

Mr Speaker, as much as I would agree with the recommendation to ratify the lady who will be the Clerk of National Assembly, I would like to say that the Constitution of Zambia should be looked at. Parliament should have its own way of employing people who serve Parliament and not dance to the tune of outsiders. I agree that the National Assembly and the President constitute Parliament and that when the President attends he is one of the hon. Members. However, he does not sit to answer queries from hon. Members of Parliament. It is only His Honour  the Vice-President who is recognised and can debate here on national issues.

Mr Speaker, I think, the employing of workers of the National Assembly should be left in your hands with your hon. Members who guard these premises jealously. We would like to ensure that the rule of law is respected.

Mr Speaker, for the Clerk of the National Assembly to be 
fired by the President is not in order. Before the end of this sitting, the Government should bring some amendments to some of the bad laws which this Constitution has. What is happening in Zambia is that whoever is a judge in the Supreme Court, commissioner or whoever is appointed by the President has no job security. That is dangerous. 

People will mislead this august House into introducing bad laws. At a later stage people will ask us what happened and we will say that we were misled. For example, it was reported in the newspapers that there were bottles being thrown here because people wanted to mislead this House by changing our procedure to suit whoever was giving instructions. We want to avoid that. You are our Speaker, not the Government Speaker. We are proud of that. The Government should be clearly told that we should not have these deliberate conflicts because the Constitution was manipulated.

Mr Speaker, I would be a very comfortable Member if as I leave Parliament – as people should not be in politics until they have grey hair – I will have left what people are following. As much as we can agree to this ratification, it has a repercussion of our endorsing what is wrong. The Government has brought this on us. No one can change it now because the Constitution has not been changed. This Constitution leaves much to be desired. 

In order for Parliament to be respected, the Constitution should be followed when employing people in high offices. People out there should not regard us as a rubber stamp. It is painful to hear people say that the Zambian Parliament is a rubber stamp. They are looking at the way the Constitution was tampered with. They are looking at how important appointments, such as this one, come to this House. We are here to ratify because we are put in a cobweb and cannot refuse because the Constitution is not straight.

Mr Speaker, since we are still here for five years, such things should never be repeated. I agree that under our current Constitution nothing will change what the Committee has brought before us no matter how long we debate. However, we hope that the Government of the day will move fast. If they do not, we are going to do it ourselves just as we are bringing in other Opposition Bills. The Bills we are bringing require Zambia to put the records straight because they are Zambian Bills. 

Some people in Government, like my hon. and learned Minister, are politicising it by saying that they are ZIMA Bills. As Opposition, people are using us because we are the only ones who can talk on their behalf. Those in Government cannot speak because they are safeguarding their jobs. We are there to speak on behalf of the voiceless. Whatever Bills come from the Opposition are not Opposition Bills. These are Bills that want to make sure that the Constitution of Zambia stands the test of time. What Parliament is doing here is for the betterment of the nation and not an individual.

Mr Speaker, let me end by supporting the ratification of Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga to serve as the Clerk of the National Assembly. The records should be put straight for us to be understood well.

[Mr L. L. Phiri]

Mr Speaker, as a man with vast experience and few words, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Order! Before I call on the next contributor, I would like to guide the House very briefly on what my predecessors have guided this House.

The words ‘rubber stamp’ and ‘manipulate’ have been deemed unparliamentary in this House. The reason does not require explanation. It is obvious. The powers under the law to make laws cannot be considered to be rubber-stamping anything because the power to legislate in Zambia under the Constitution is vested in this House.

Secondly, ‘manipulate’ means an unlawful way of doing things, that is doing things by subterfuge. I do not think it is proper to say this House is being manipulated by anybody when hon. Members have powers to make or unmake laws. Some words are declared unparliamentary because there is a reason for it, particularly with regard to the context in which they are used.

I wish to clarify one issue by pointing out that it is not the Constitution which speaks about the manner in which the Clerk should be appointed. It is the National Assembly Staff Act. So, we do not have to amend the Constitution to do this. It is an Act of Parliament which, historically, was one of the last laws the pre-MMD Parliament enacted. This law vests powers to appoint the Clerk in the President. That is historically correct. So, I do not know whether it is correct to blame individuals or administrations. It is the pre-MMD Parliament that passed that particular Act.

The Chair is not supposed to debate. It guides.

Mr Nzowa (Kabushi): Thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this very important motion.

I will not take much of your time because I have seen my friends have taken much time and they have said all the good things. So, I will only dwell on the few things that I feel are very important.

Mr Speaker, as a new Parliamentarian, I would like to see a day or time when all of us here will act in unison regardless 
of our political affiliations. It is very important that, at times, we act in unison for the betterment of this country and Zambians. I am saying this because some of the issues that are brought to this House leave much to be desired. I do not 
know why people do even good things in a wrong way. It is very unfair and unfortunate.

I would like to take time to pay tribute to the former Clerk. 

He is a gallant Zambian. He did his job. He contributed a lot to this Parliament and I think it would be very unfair to abandon him as if he never contributed anything. I do not believe that great men will just become useless overnight. I would like to see all the experienced politicians retire with respect and in harmony regardless of them being in the Legislature, Executive or Judiciary. We should be able, as a nation, to create a buffer zone. We should be able to have the wise men of the nation whom we can always run to in times of crisis. It can be Dr Kaunda, Mr Grey Zulu or other ageing wise politicians both from this side and that side.

It is for this reason that I would like to urge the House to act as one unit and ensure that the new Clerk comes in properly and the old Clerk goes out properly. This is because if we send Mr Chibesakunda in a very unceremonious manner, even the new Clerk will have the same exit. We should start creating precedents. We should start attracting respect to the political platform regardless of which party we belong to.

Mr Speaker, I would like to comment just on one thing, though the report has touched on it. It is the issue of the Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly. I would like to be very clear. Why do we have a Deputy Clerk of National Assembly? Why do we call him deputy?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, I have no problem with the lady. In  fact, I would like to see Zambia as one of the few countries with a lady Speaker. I would like to see that because we are going to make history in the Commonwealth and a lot of countries will be referring to Zambia as a case study. We have a long serving Deputy Clerk who cannot take over as Clerk. Then, what is the point of having such a position? I would like to know. It is very frustrating and people will be scared of being made Deputy Clerk because they will never be Clerk. If that position is not meant to deputise, it should not exist.

Many times, within my short stay in Parliament, I have seen the Deputy Clerk act in the absence of the Clerk, and everything has been moving smoothly. Now, this thing of bringing someone from low down there, with due respect, with all the papers that we require, to come and supervise the people that have been there long is bad. You might not see the problems that creep into this institution. There might 
be problems in this institution and we should learn to avoid these things. The Deputy Clerk, in my view, should have been the Clerk just the same way I would like the Vice-President of this nation to be President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Nzowa: That is the way it should be ...

The Vice-President: Yes.

Mr Nzowa: … because, Mr Speaker, we are supposed to create a system that is very smooth.

 In the United States, Mr Bill Clinton had to pick on his deputy to stand as President. In South Africa, Mr Nelson Mandela did the same. It is because they recognise the fact that the deputy understudies the immediate supervisor and is able to take over. I would like, as we ratify our sister to come in as Clerk, to put an end to bringing people from anywhere to become Clerk. They should go through the ladder and accumulate the experience that is necessary to run this very important organ of Government.

Mr Speaker, I had mentioned that my colleagues took a long time to explain and they touched on very important issues. It is not my wish to take the Floor longer. But I only hope that all of us here accept and put in place a system where we have deputies take over positions when those they follow retire. I am saying this because even what the UNIP Government had left was destroyed during the MMD rule. There was an Act to cater for retirement benefits for leaders. Now, it is not there. It is only the President who has the benefits. I have never seen such a situation.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1805 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Nzowa: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was just winding up my debate and I was talking about the insecurity that exists in this country as regards the personnel or staff that occupy very sensitive offices. I had touched on the issue of the law UNIP had left which was removed by the MMD Government, and that is the Leadership Benefits Act. This is why most of the people in leadership, now, are helping themselves to public funds because there is job insecurity and they are not entitled to terminal benefits.

Mr Speaker, I would like this House, in the near future, to bring a motion or Bill here, to reintroduce the Leadership Benefits Bill. It should not only end with the President. If we are going to give a one bedroomed house to the hon. Minister or Deputy Minister, it does not matter and it should not matter. I am not a hon. Minister, but we should just do it for the sake of this nation. I am saying so because I have got a lot of people whom I know who were in Government and driving very posh vehicles, occupying very good air conditioned offices, but are a sorry sight, now. This is bringing embarrassment to the country because we have adopted a culture of throwing away wisdom. I would like to see His Honour the Vice-President come to this House, in the near future, with that Bill because very soon, I might be in Government and I would want to find everything intact and clear.


Mr Nzowa: Very soon, most of us might be in Government; that is why we want to do it …


Mr Nzowa: It does not matter, it can take twenty years, but we should do it for the betterment of this nation.

Having said that, Sir, I do not want to waste much time, the things that were touched on by Hon. Sibetta are very cardinal and I know that he has got his own way of bringing things with a lot of humour. However, you must take note of the issues he raised. We have to do things legally and properly. There is nobody who is saying that Mrs Doris Katai Katebe Mwinga is a bad person. The report is saying good things about her, but what we are saying is that we should not dump Mr Chibesakunda as if he has never done anything. If anything, he has even written a book about this Parliament which is helping a lot of us, young Parliamentarians, to understand the history of this Parliament; and we cannot just dump him because he has probably differed with somebody or stepped on the toes of the authorities. We should not do that.

By supporting this motion, Sir, I would like that we, first of all, deal with the issue of Mr Chibesakunda, properly, and then bring this motion which will not be controversial to this House for proper debate. I have seen the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General is shaking his head, but I have the right, as the people’s representative, to come here and ensure that I am part and parcel of the good decisions of Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nzowa: When I retire, I should look back and say, I was part of that decision to correct the anomalies that had been brought in this august House.

So, I propose that we first stay that document and deal properly with the exit of Mr Chibesakunda.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Speaker: Can those on my right, who would like to debate, please, indicate because I am observing a one-sided debate, which is not proper in a democracy like ours. Continue indicating until we know exactly who is indicating, the same with those who are indicating on my left.

Mr L. J. Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, in the first place, I would like to congratulate the Committee under the leadership of Hon. Dipak Patel, also known as Chief Bauleni, on a very well presented report.

Mr Speaker, following and perusing through the Select Committee’s Report, it is very clear that the appointee is immensely qualified and will be able to handle the duties that go with the position of Clerk of the National Assembly effectively.

On the other hand, it would be good to equally have a gender-balanced management here at Parliament, especially in this age.

Mrs Nkumbula-Liebenthal: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Ngoma: I would also like to advise the incoming Clerk, Mrs Mwinga, to be firm and courageous when handling issues of this House because the position she will occupy is very sensitive and, at times, slippery. She is not supposed to dance to the whims of the politicians or the appointing authority.

However, Sir, in my language, we say, “Chakomela mbuzi ugunda galu. Galu ikati ilumeko, ati undoola chikumba.” That is to say that it has suited the goat to hit the dog, but when the dog bites the goat, the goat cries foul.

Today, Sir, the former Clerk, Mr Chibesakunda, is no longer in his seat and God knows why that has happened. In very suspicious circumstances, Mr Chibesakunda has been relieved of his duties. 

May I quote, Sir, with due permission, from page 5 of the Select Committee’s Report, paragraph 7. This was a submission by Cabinet Office:

    ‘On whether it was ever brought to the attention of             the President that the previous Clerk of the National             Assembly was never ratified in accordance with the             law and that he served as Clerk illegally, your             Committee were informed that the President was             aware of the anomaly, hence, the decision to                 terminate the services of the former Clerk.’

The fact that Mr Chibesakunda was never ratified is not the problem of the Opposition Members of the House. He was not ratified at that time because it suited the powers that were there. They felt it was good as long as it suited them to 
use him. Now, time has come when they feel that he is no longer necessary, they decide to dump him just like that.

Mr Speaker, it is imperative that I should equally emphasise the point that the former Clerk of the National Assembly should be allowed to retire honourably. At one time the President called for a Special Session and the Zamtrop account was laid on the Table. A lot of people received money from that very suspicious and controversial account. We sit with some of them in this House, yet they are still holding on to their positions.  Some of the Members who got money 

from the Zamtrop account are discussed publicly. They are there in the Press. Some of them have even refunded that money, but the Executive has seen it fit to give them an opportunity to retire honourably.

In 1991, Mr Speaker, one of the great sons of this land, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, was insulted, rebuked and forsaken. He was told kuya bebele in this same House, but today, it is a different story. This very Government has even seen it fit to honour this man. What I am trying to say is that the former Clerk of the National Assembly served courageously and judiciously for over three decades to an extent that he has even become an authority even in the Commonwealth. Today, we decide to dump him just like that! As a country, we need not throw away such immense wisdom and knowledge. Where are we going to learn from, we, the upcoming leaders? I would like it, when the FDD takes over Government, that we be able to have rules and laws that are going to be respected and liked by the people of this country.


Mr L. J. Ngoma: Chakomela mbuzi ugunda galu. 

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, because of the immense knowledge and wisdom that people like the former Clerk possess, I would like to suggest that an office of the former Clerk of the National Assembly be established, just as there is an establishment of the Office of the former Speaker. I believe that we are going to learn a lot from the experience that Mr Chibesakunda has.

All in all, much as I have said that the report be adopted, I am very wary of the legal implications. When the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General was called upon to come and present himself before your Committee, he pointed out very clearly that the decision to remove the former Clerk had no legal backing. Where does that put us? Are we saying we are going to continue with a wrong? It is only three or four months ago when we were called here on the issue of the removal of the immunities of the former President. The hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General judiciously tried to argue here and there and there were other hon. Members who tried to argue that we should follow the right procedure. Because of 
the pressure, where are we today? Our decision was challenged.

So, as Hon. Sibetta has indicated that we might be creating a situation whereby somebody will, actually, use this very report to say that even the Government was aware that they 
were doing the wrong thing. Why should we perpetrate a wrong, sons and daughters of this land?

With these few wise remarks from the East, as we await the FDD Government, I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, in the first place, I would like to say I am not standing here to argue against the appointment of Mrs Doris Mwinga. I have known her for a very long time. She is a very competent person. We have had discussions with her during negotiations. I am not also here to praise the former Clerk of the National Assembly. I would like to make one important proposal. I think here we have to reach a compromise in order for us to move forwardas a united front. 

I would like to appeal to the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General to convince this House to consider what Hon. Sibetta has said in the interest of national unity. It will not do us any good to harshly make a decision here only to have it effectively challenged tomorrow. I think posterity would judge us harshly if we did that. 

I do recall last time when we were discussing the appointment of the Solicitor-General, that I am the only one who stood out to say that these decisions we are making here might have a boomerang effect. The President is allowed to appoint a Clerk of the National Assembly who must be ratified by the National Assembly. If the President is going to dismiss a Clerk of the National Assembly, it, therefore, follows that he can only do it through the National assembly. I think that makes sense. If this does not make sense, I am afraid, very little makes sense. I would like to ask the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General to come out categorically because this report reflects that what was done was illegal. I am also going to read the same paragraph which Hon. L. J. Ngoma read, but with a different denotation, and I quote:

    ‘The Secretary to the Cabinet said that the President             has, for the past one year, known that Mr                 Chibesakunda did not qualify to hold the position             of Clerk.’

Does it need a President to wait for twelve months to act on something which is illegal? Why did the President have to wait for almost one year, because he became President in December, 2001, but waited until October, 2002 to take action on something which is illegal? What that means is that here in Zambia we are prepared to tolerate illegality and illegality must not be tolerated in this House because this is an august House with honourable Members who make laws. If we, who make the laws, are able to break them with impunity, then we are lost. 

I would like to seriously ask the Government to reconsider 
and to take serious cognisance of the issues raised by Hon. Sibetta. Unless we are rushing for something, I think if this matter was delayed for a few hours, it can be resolved tomorrow so that that lady who I know is very capable, can have a good welcome to this Parliament.

I am not saying that Mr Chibesakunda should stay. I think he has done his job, but as he goes out, we must resolve his going amicably. Unless there is something we are rushing for to ratify the appointment today, I think there is need for the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General to sit with other people to look at the issues raised so that tomorrow when we ratify this appointment, we shall do it as a united people. 

As things are now, we may end up making terrible mistakes. Sir, I am not supporting the continued stay of Brother Chibesakunda. In fact, we would like a situation whereby a Clerk can dedicate herself or himself to the service of the National Assembly. Currently, people are only quarreling about these positions. I think we can arrest this situation by reaching a compromise so that tomorrow, when we come, it will be plain sailing.

I am not sure whether the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General has any other issues to raise apart from what is reflected in the report. The report itself is very good, but I also think that those people who do not advise the President for ten months, when they are there to advise him …

Hon. Opposition Members: They should be fired!

Mr Moonde: I do not know whether they should be fired, but something should happen to them.


Mr Moonde: Sir, we are tolerating illegality and I do not want to be part of illegality. I think this matter can be dealt with within ten to twenty minutes and there would be unanimity if the issues raised by Hon. Sibetta could be looked into.

I, definitely, support the appointment of Mrs Doris Mwinga, although I would also like to support the sentiments expressed by Hon. Nzowa questioning the reason a person who is deputy should remain a deputy forever. I know of a Minister of State who was a Minister of State for twenty years, until people stopped calling him by his name and started addressing him as ba Minister of State.


Mr Moonde: That became his name, ‘Minister of State’.

Unless there are serious handicaps, I would like a situation whereby even people in the lower ranks can rise. The fact that you keep them in the positions of deputies for a long time means that they are competent and deserve some appointment or some advancement from their positions. I would like to seriously urge the Government not to be proud 

[Mr Moonde]

on this issue because sometimes pride comes before a fall.

I have a lot of respect for Hon. Kunda and his integrity and I am sure he will use it to the maximum in ensuring that this matter is resolved amicably.

With these few remarks, I would like to thank you.

Mr Speaker: I would like to guide the House that the motion on the Floor is very clear. It is ratifying the individual named here and not postponing the motion for the sake of other issues. The contributors on my left, Opposition side, are repeating themselves now. Let me hear if there will be something different from here, Government side, hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing. I hope there will bring up something new.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chitala): Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the Committee on behalf of us all for the work they did on this non-controversial motion. I would also like to put on record, our expression of gratitude to the former Clerk of the National Assembly, Mr Chibesakunda who has served this country with excellence since 1968 as Speaker, …

Hon. Government Members: As Clerk!

Mr Chitala: … as Clerk of the National Assembly.

Mr Speaker, this issue had difficulties since Mr Chibesakunda became Clerk again. There were difficulties in terms of contractual obligations …

Mr Speaker: Order! You have been repeating what has already been said. I would like to hear something new in terms of ratification. I now, call upon the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General.


The Minister of Legal Affairs (Mr Kunda): Mr Speaker, listening to some of the contributions from the hon. Members 
on the other side, Opposition, it is quite clear that in certain respects, my opinion has been read selectively to suit their arguments. If you look at my opinion in the report, I have clearly said that whatever the former Clerk did for this House was legal. It is protected by law, it is there in my opinion. The position that you may also not be aware of is that Mr Chibesakunda was retired. This means that he is entitled to full benefits. The issue of him being left in the cold does not arise at all.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: It is also true that some of our hon. Members were very hostile to Mr Chibesakunda when he was serving this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Especially from the other side.


Mr Kunda: But today, they are trying to champion his cause.


Mr Kunda: That is not on. It is not on.

I also wish to appeal to women to support their fellow women when they are being elevated to high positions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Not what I heard from the other side. Women are fond of attacking each other and not supporting their own interests. This will never advance the interests of women in this country. The New Deal Government is trying its best to ensure that women enjoy equality in this country.

Sir, hon. Members of the Opposition were threatening to sue the Government in respect of the continued service of Mr Chibesakunda. I have got notes which they used to pass on to me, to say that they intended to sue the Government. This was a matter of public interest. It used to appear in newspapers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Lay them on the Table!

Mr Kunda: I do not have them now!


Mr Speaker: Order! I would like to bring to the notice of this House that, although we have so many learned Members of Parliament, there is only one who is officially the legal advisor to the Government, and this House is part of the Government. Now, when hon. Members of Parliament raise issues which border on the law and the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney-General is replying, it is much safer to listen than to interject and derail his line of thought.

May the hon. and learned Minister of Legal Affairs and Attorney General, please, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members Interjected.

Mr Kunda: Thank you, Sir …


Mr Speaker: Order! This is insubordination and it is intolerable.

 May the hon. Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, my opinion on the issue of retirement and the issues of legalities and holding office after the age of fifty-five is very clear. A person cannot hold office by the Constitution and by the National Assembly Staff Act if he attains the age of retirement. It is mandatory that a person who reaches retirement age must vacate the office. Now, in this particular case, after the age of fifty-five, Mr Chibesakunda could not be brought to this House for ratification because he was already over the age of retirement. That is my opinion on that one.

The Select Committee has acknowledged and I must thank the Committee for acknowledging the legal mistakes we have made. We are learning. The report is trying to give us guidance …

Hon. UPND Members Interjected.


Mr Speaker: Order! If I name a Member here, there will be trouble. And that is the last thing a  presiding officer would want to do. 

May the hon. and learned Minister and Attorney-General, continue, please.

Mr Kunda: So, what I am saying is that this report is about us learning from mistakes and correcting them for the future, including amending the law. This report is progressive and I support it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: As I have said, the issue of Mr Chibesakunda’s terminal benefits is a separate issue. Let us move ahead. We do not have a Clerk and so, let us ratify this very highly qualified and competent woman so that we can, to quote the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabushi, go down in history as a progressive country promoting the rights of women.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to those of the hon. Members who have spoken before me. It is not easy to say anything more about the appointment before us since so many good attributes have been said of the lady.

However, Sir, allow me to commend all the hon. Members who have contributed so well on this motion. I noted that both sides of the House have actively contributed on this motion. That is, as it should be. Let me, also, add that I have noted all your contributions and some will require careful consideration by the Government in order to address them.

With regard to the Committee’s observation, on the separation of powers among the three arms of the State, and in particular, recommendations that Section 3 of the National Assembly Staff Act, Cap 257 of the Laws, be amended to provide for the appointment of the Clerk by you, Mr Speaker, subject to ratification by the House, I have specifically noted this matter.

However, as the Government studies this concern, hon. Members will also be at liberty to propose such amendment in the forthcoming review of the Constitution. Let me also affirm that my Government is fully committed to upholding the rule of law and the autonomy of the three arms of the State. It is therefore not our intention to interfere in the operations of any other wing of our Government.

Presently, however, our Constitution has prescribed certain functions and responsibilities to our President. It is, therefore, incumbent upon him to appoint public officers such as the one before us now.

My Government is also committed to ensuring gender balancing at the highest level of the Public Service. Zambia has subscribed to the SADC principle of gender where thirty per cent of decision-making positions should be occupied by qualified women. This, yet again, serves as a true testimony of our commitment to this policy.

I recall that yesterday, hon. Members criticised us for allegedly failing to promote professionalism as enshrined in our manifesto. Today, I am sure, you have all agreed with me that the statement was not entirely true. The candidate before you now is a seasoned lawyer and Civil Service professional. I am delighted that you all support her.

We will ensure that Mrs Mwinga is not disadvantaged in any way as was raised by some hon. Members regarding her 
package because Permanent Secretaries, I am told, are entitled to a package at the end of every three years and so it is hoped that Mrs Mwinga will not be disadvantaged.