DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE NINTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 1st November, 2002

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
 

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I wish to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Mr Speaker, on Tuesday, 5th November, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider motions for the presentation of private Members’ Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will debate motions for the adoption of reports of Parliamentary Sessional Committees, if there will by any.

Sir, on Wednesday, 6th November, 2002, the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then debate a private Members Motion on the Distribution of Relief Food. Thereafter, the House will consider reports of Parliamentary Sessional Committees, if there will be any.

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 7th November, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider motions to adopt reports of Parliamentary Sessional Committees, if there will be any.

On Friday, 8th November, 2002, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then continue to debate motions to adopt Sessional Committee Reports, if there will be any.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

QUESTIONS

PAYMENTS FOR TEACHERS IN RURAL AREAS

193. Major-General Zulu (Lumezi) asked the Minister 

of Education what measures have been taken to expedite payment of upset, leave and subsistence allowances to teachers in rural areas.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mrs Chipampe): Mr Speaker, in order to expedite payment of salaries, upset, leave and subsistence allowances to teachers in rural areas, the payroll has been decentralised to provincial headquarters, so far. Furthermore, as a result of the large amounts of money involved for such payments, the ministry has requested for additional funding from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to inform this august House whether the ministry has started paying out hardship allowance to teachers living in rural areas.

Mrs Chipampe: Mr Speaker, that question will be answered in the next question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I think so.

Mr Sibetta (Luena): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the ministry has solved the issue of ghost workers in that ministry now that the payroll has been decentralised to provincial headquarters. I would also like to know how far they are going to cut down the waiting period for new entrants to the teaching service from 
colleges, who have to wait for three years.

The Minister of Education (Mr Mulenga): Mr Speaker, teachers no longer wait as long as three years. They are put on the payroll almost as soon as they report to their various schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Ng’uni (Chama South): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister of Education to explain to this House, and the nation at large, why teachers have continued walking long stretches, abandoning their class work, to go to districts to fetch their little money which is never ready. This happens even in areas where there is only one teacher at a school. 

I would like to find out from him when they will find time to teach. In fact, there are certain schools where there is only one teacher and he has to go away for two weeks.

Mr Mulenga:  Mr Speaker, I am glad to report that each 

[Mr Mulenga]

district, throughout the Republic of Zambia, has three running vehicles. I will challenge the hon. Member of Parliament to produce evidence of teachers who have to travel, abandoning classes, in order to collect their salaries. The Government has distributed three running vehicles to all the districts in this country.

Mr Speaker, District Education Officers are instructed to deliver salaries to teachers at their various schools.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that policy shift has caused a lot of hardships on the part of teachers because provinces are not sufficiently funded?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I think that is a new question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister confirm to this House whether logistics, such as the provision of fuel for the three vehicles in each district, have been put in place to ensure that the District Education Officers actually reach these primary schools.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Government has taken care of the problem of fuel. Each Provincial Education Officer is allocated sufficient funds to ensure that his district officers are mobile.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that instructions have been given to the District Education Officers to use these vehicles to take salaries because what I know is that these vehicles have never taken salaries. If there are any schools to which they have taken salaries, they are very few. Is there a circular written to that effect so that we can quote that circular?

Mr Mulenga:  Mr Speaker, all District Education Officers have been instructed accordingly.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chibanga (Chama North): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister assure this House that the roads from the districts linking all the schools in the districts are passable.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, road network does not fall under the portfolio of the Ministry of Education.

Thank you, Sir.

HOUSING ALLOWANCE FOR RURAL TEACHERS

194. Major-General Zulu asked the hon. Minister of Education when teachers in rural areas, who are not accommodated by the Government, would start getting housing allowance.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister undertook to answer the issue of hardship allowance under this question.

Mrs Chipampe: Mr Speaker, teachers have been submitting applications for payment of housing allowances and these applications are being processed for payment as they are received.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education may deal with the issue of payment of hardship allowance as undertaken.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I am glad to inform the House that hardship allowance is an allowance which is paid upon application.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Question!

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell this august House how effective the system of paying teachers allowances, such as double class allowance and rural hardship allowance, on request, is. Could he tell us how effective that system is if he has been on the ground and knows how teachers are suffering. For three years, now, teachers in rural areas have not been getting what he is telling this august House about.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, an allowance is something that is paid in addition to the running salary. I must admit that allowances have been abused by the recipients. An allowance is paid because the recipient deserves it. We have had cases where non-deserving teachers falsely claimed these allowances. I am glad to tell the nation that all allowances will be paid on a monthly basis upon verification of such clients.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wamulume (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that teachers at Nangole, Namweti and Munde Primary schools are not on the payroll?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, for administrative purposes 

and in order for the Ministry of Education to service both teachers and pupils effectively, this country is divided into provinces, districts and schools. The last unit, the school, has a head teacher. It is incumbent upon the head of that school to notify the District Education Officer so that all deserving teachers are put on the payroll by the Provincial Education Officer. Upon receipt of that information, such teachers will be paid their dues. 

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I sympathise with the hon. Minister of Education. I think the system obtaining in his ministry is not working. Is he aware that in Katuba Constituency, the District Education Officer was notified that there were new teachers who were coming in? To date, they have not been accommodated and the so-called allowances have not been paid.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I think that question is misdirected. If the area hon. Member of Parliament had these teachers at heart, he should have channelled that complaint to the head of the school, the District Education Officer and the Provincial Education Officer. These officers would have informed the Permanent Secretary in order to rectify the situation.

Thank you, Sir. 

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Education confirm whether the question of payment of the teachers who had gone on strike has, now, been resolved. I say so because teachers in my constituency …

Mr Speaker: Order! Can the hon. Minister of Education, please, answer that question.

Mr Mulenga: Sir, allow me to request the hon. Member of Parliament to rephrase his question to enable me answer him properly.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Sir, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that hardship allowance is an automatic payment to the teachers and , therefore, it should not be applied for?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, an allowance is only paid to those who deserve it. It is not automatic. So, unless people apply for it and they meet the necessary conditions, such an allowance cannot be paid out. 

Thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi (Munali): Sir, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that hardship allowance is supposed to be paid to all teachers in the rural areas designated as hardship areas, and as such, there is no requirement for application? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, any allowance must be claimed. Otherwise, it ceases to be an allowance.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Liato (Kaoma): Mr Speaker, to me, the problem of education in Zambia, I think, is a big one because it ranges from problems pertaining to the workers in the ministry to the standard of education itself. My question is: does the Government, through the Ministry of Education, have any plans to comprehensively review the education system in Zambia so that the problem is solved comprehensively?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the process of educational reforms is continuous and  interested parties are free to submit their proposals to the ministry at any level of the ministry.

Thank you, Sir.

ZAMBIA’S DEBT

195. Mr Kasongo asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

    (a)    which countries cancelled Zambia’s debt         under the Highly Indebted Poor Countries         (HIPC) Initiative since January, 2002; and

    (b)    how much of this debt has been cancelled.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Kalifungwa): Mr Speaker, there is no country that has cancelled Zambia’s debt under the Highly Indebted Poor Countries Initiative since January, 2001. However, upon attainment of the completion point, hopefully towards the end of 2003, the following countries will give Zambia debt relief in the following manner:

Creditor        Percentage of debt write-off

United Kingdom        100
France            100
Italy                100 
Canada            100
Japan                90
Austria            90
Germany            90
USA                90
Brazil                90
Bulgaria            89 

[Mr Kalifungwa]

With regard to how much of the debt has been cancelled, there is no debt which has been cancelled since January, 2001. Debt service has, however, been suspended by most bilateral creditors pending attainment of the completion point when they will effect the above treatment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Patel (Lusaka Central): Hon. Minister, you were recently quoted as saying that the HIPC Initiative is not working. Could you, for the benefit of all honourable Members here, explain in detail why you said the HIPC Initiative was not working.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, even when we reach the completion point in the year 2003, we shall still have something like US$3.8 billion debt. So, the sustainability of 
the payment of the debt will still not be achieved. That is the more reason why we say it is not working. We would like the debt to be written off totally rather than partially. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wina (Nalolo): Sir, I want to refer the hon. Minister to the moneys that were released last year. I also want to know whether the hon. Minister is aware that some of the HIPC funds that were sent to the provinces are actually being diverted to capital projects which, in most cases, are not labour intensive and, as such, the poor are not benefiting from these funds. Is the hon. Minister also aware that HIPC funds are administered by District Administrators who happen to be party cadres? I do not know how we are going to monitor the implementation and impact of the funds.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, we are aware of allegations of misuse of HIPC funds and measures have been put in place to confirm the allegations of misuse. I am not aware of District Administrators administering HIPC funds.

Interruptions.

Mr Kalifungwa: I am aware that HIPC funds are being managed by the Controlling Officers in provinces.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nakalonga (Chikankata): Sir, is it more cost-effective to administer projects from the provincial centres than to decentralise the HIPC moneys to districts for easy monitoring and implementation?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the idea is very sensible. Unfortunately, we have to put control measures in place at the district level before we can send the money to the districts.

Thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Sir, can the hon. Minister explain to this House why HIPC funds for Eastern Province were returned to the Central Government. And when does he expect to send this money back?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, there might have been some administrative problems. The money might have been returned, but it will actually be sent back.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Sir, may I know whether, at the debt cancellation negotiations, the donors asked the Government to issue them with a list of the people who have stolen public funds. Is the Government going to oblige?

Mr Speaker: Order! The Chair will have to guide the hon. Member, as well as the House as a whole, that this House does not entertain hypothetical questions.

Laughter.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, the HIPC funds are obviously meant to benefit the poor. Is it  the Government’s policy that when these funds are being disbursed, there shall be so much politicking and euphoria such that a disbursement of K10 million to one orphanage is followed by an expenditure of K3 million on an hon. Minister and ZNBC crew just to publicise the distribution of the K10 million?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the purpose of these HIPC funds is poverty reduction. Therefore, for the purpose of transparency, when the money is being disbursed, the people must know.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr L. L. Phiri (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, concerning HIPC money which was allocated to Eastern Province for feeder roads, but has now been transferred from Chipata to Lusaka, I would like the hon. Minister to tell us here, whether it requires his ministry to withdraw the money because of the administrative problems or to disallow the use of that money while it was in Chipata. Can he tell this august House the reasons why it was transferred to Lusaka.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I indicated that there were some administrative hitches sending the money if at all it was sent, but the money is there and it will still be utilised. I
do know that hon. Members of Parliament in Eastern Province sat down and mapped out the way they intended to utilise the money. What I can assure them is that that money is available and they are going to utilise it the way they intend to.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pwele (Roan): Mr Speaker, the issue of HIPC funds is a very serious one. HIPC funds have been abused by Permanent Secretaries and you people there. 

Hon. Government Members: Question!

Mr Pwele: What measures have you put in place to provide checks and balances on the use of HIPC funds? We need a statement from you, hon. Minister.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the issue of HIPC, as stated by the hon. Member, is a very crucial issue. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning has got a monitoring team for HIPC fund disbursement and the way the money should be utilised. To add to that, the civil society as well as NGOs and the private sector have got another team to monitor these funds. 

So, really, when there is a misappropriation of HIPC funds, we really pick it up. But for now, we do not have that information. If Hon. Pwele has got the information, he should give it to us and we will utilise it.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT (GDP)

196. Mr Kasongo asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the target of 4 per cent growth in Gross Domestic Product in the year 2000 was realised and, if not, what was the reason for the failure.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, in response to Question No. 
196, the target of 4 per cent growth in GDP in the year 2000 was not met as a result of a number of factors. Growth in GDP in the year 2000 was 3 per cent. The less than expected performance was attributed to the low performance in sectors such as mining, agriculture, real estates and manufacturing.

A strong recovery in the mining sector was, for instance, expected, but for the third consecutive year, real value added in the sector declined, it fell by 5.1 per cent from K160.2 billion in 1999 to K153.7 billion in 2000, largely due to operational bottlenecks. 

As a consequence, the envisaged re-emergence of growth in the real estate and manufacturing activities on the Copperbelt to service the privatised mines was not achieved.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS

197. Miss Jere (Luangeni) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the Government will crackdown on illegal immigrants countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Sakeni): Mr Speaker, the operations against illegal immigrants, is an ongoing exercise countrywide. Our officers are actually concerned by the lack of resources and that makes it difficult for them to carry out regular patrols and operations aimed at cracking down on these illegal immigrants.

However, once funds are made available, we will be carrying out more regular operations.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, how does the hon. Minister of Home Affairs explain the existence of illegal immigrants? Even in the remotest areas of the country, there are Tanzanians and Congolese.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, as I said, Zambia is a haven of peace and that is why we are experiencing a large influx of illegal immigrants. As a result, our officers are actually constrained by the lack of operational facilities like vehicles and monitoring resources, including manpower. Otherwise, we are more than geared to conduct and flush out these illegal immigrants from time to time.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mudenda (Dundumwenzi): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs aware that Dundumwenzi Constituency and Itezhi-tezhi has a lot of immigrants from the neighbouring countries who are poaching and killing our animals ruthlessly?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, we are aware of this problem, but this can only be done in collaboration with ZAWA and I am sure ZAWA will have to approach our ministry so that we conduct joint operations in the area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shumina (Mangango): Mr Speaker, the issue of illegal immigrants tampers with the security of the nation. As a ministry, can you confirm when you think you are going to embark on this project to save this country.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mapushi): Mr Speaker, one of the attractions to these illegal immigrants in this country are the natural resources which we have. Somehow, people have got the map of Zambia indicating that we have got a lot of precious stones and other natural 

[Mr Mapushi]

resources. If funds are made available, Sir, our intention is to have a comprehensive system in place, which is going to ensure that we do not have illegal immigrants in this country.

Mr Speaker, in the report  it shows that in some other places, we have illegal immigrants who are not only here for our wealth, but are also engaged in very serious security transgressions, but I will not give details.

I thank you, Sir.

Major-General Zulu: Mr Speaker is the hon. Minister aware that when game rangers from Malawi entered Zambia, they burnt houses, tobacco sheds and sadly, killed a Zambian national right here in Zambia, claiming that that part of Zambia belongs to Malawi? I am ready to take the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to Lundazi so that I can show him the burnt houses and the graveyard.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the question raised by the hon. Member is quite sensitive. As you are aware, there is no border problem between Zambia and Malawi and that is a matter that the two sister countries have to handle. Otherwise, we have not yet specifically received any report. It is a matter that the Joint Permanent Commission between Zambia and Malawi should to handle.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to inform this House whether or not he is aware that some of the people congesting our prisons are illegal immigrants. If he is, what measures is he taking to ensure repatriation of these people?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I am sure I am on record, on several occasions, as saying that part of the reasons we have unnecessary congestion is that we take long to fly out these illegal immigrants. I am aware of the fact that, as Government, we are constrained mainly by lack of sufficient resources. 

I must put it on record, Mr Speaker, that of late, I think up to three weeks or a month, the Commissioner of Human Rights came to our aid and bought air tickets for some of the illegal immigrants. I would like to take this opportunity to thank them and say that we can work jointly on this matter.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Miss Sialumba (Mampatizya): Mr Speaker, I stand here as a very disappointed citizen of Zambia. My colleagues who asked before me have indicated the serious problem that we have with these illegal immigrants. My question to the hon. 

Minister, through you, Mr Speaker, is: should the ministry and its personnel not think in terms of looking at this problem as a priority and then, maybe, allow this House to make sure that resources are found so that we are able to solve this 
problem? We are talking of us not having money, but these illegal immigrants are coming here to plunder our resources.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I equally share the concern expressed by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mapatizya, but the question of illegal immigrants, Mr Speaker, is a complex one. There are a lot of forces at work whose details cannot be discussed publicly. Let me pick one case in the Western Province. Mr Speaker, in the Western Province alone, the scenario obtaining there suggests that if we do not take serious measures, we may have a situation where illegal immigrants clearly outnumber the indigenous people and that is a serious security risk.

As a ministry, I have asked my officers to ensure that we put in place, as I said earlier, a very comprehensive arrangement. If funds permit, Mr Speaker, next week, some officers will be going to Angola because this matter is clearly between the two countries and we cannot work out a solution in Zambia without taking on board our colleagues from Angola.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Miss Kakoma (Kalabo): Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs what they have put in place for these illegal immigrants because within Lusaka, already they have taken over about three streets from where they are dealing in dollars. Even in the trading sector, they are busy cooking nshima, which our own Zambians could have also dealt in for them to get money. These so-called investors come into our country to cook nshima and sell chickens. I think we are well equipped, as Zambians, to do the same.

Interruptions.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the question of illegal immigrants is a complex one. One of the reasons which make these things very difficult is that when you look at nine out of ten cases, you find that these so-called illegal immigrants gained entry into this country through some of our people who are supposed to protect this country. Others will enter this country through marriages and fake contracts. It is complex, Mr Speaker, that by the time you realise, you find that these illegal immigrants are entrenched in the country and are even doing petty things like selling nshima in the market stalls. As I said earlier, Mr Speaker, this requires a comprehensive approach and a lot of resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the answers we have received, particularly from the hon. Deputy Minister, cause a lot of worry. Less than forty-eight hours ago, we were told in this House that there were no border disputes and today the hon. Deputy Minister has said that the issue in Malawi is sensitive, it requires joint efforts. Are we being told the truth in this House?

Secondly, may I know how ZAWA must be involved in the matter of taking illegal immigrants out of this country. Why should ZAWA be involved?

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, I can repeat that there are no border disputes between Zambia and Malawi. There are two faces to that issue. At local level, from time to time, we get reports that some villagers are claiming ownership of this and that village. I must inform the House that at the moment, there are joint operations between my ministry and the Ministry of Lands. Our officers are on the ground for the purposes of not drawing a new border, but creating a no man’s land so that we can formally inform our two nationals that this is a no man’s land and they should follow the laws on the no man’s land.

As regards the involvement of ZAWA officers, Mr Speaker, it is because some of these illegal immigrants come in this country for the purposes of poaching and officers who are trained to handle the poaching issues are from ZAWA.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is saying that the issue of illegal immigrants is very complex and I am sure that it requires a complex mind. Does he 
have any complex solution to this complex problem?

Laughter.

Mr Mapushi: Mr Speaker, my brother has a different meaning of what I said. The aspect of being complex, the way I view it, is that, now, commerce and trade cannot be complete within your borders. People have to cross borders and they use all sorts of methods, where legal ones fail, to gain entry into this country. So, there are a lot of forces at play which must be studied clearly and understood before you can apply any intervention measures.

I thank you, Sir.

NATIONAL REGISRATION CARDS

198. Miss Jere asked the Minister of Home Affairs how many people were issued with pink and green registration cards between April, 2001 and March 2002.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, between April, 2001 and March, 

2002, a total of 559,244 green Zambian national registration cards were issued by our department and 393 pink, that is Commonwealth registration cards were issued. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that last year a lot of Zambian national registration cards were issued to foreigners, especially in Western Province, Copperbelt and parts of Luapula provinces, perpetuated by the District Administrators so as to have them vote for the MMD Government?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: If he is aware of that, what measures are being put in place to see that those national registration cards are withdrawn from them?

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, the ministry is not aware of that report.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bwalya (Kasama): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Home Affairs when they are going to conduct mobile registration in Northern Province and Kasama Central in particular.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, this is a continuous process and with funds permitting, in next year’s budget, we expect to conduct some sporadic mobile registration exercise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Wamulume (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Home Affairs aware that there are no facilities to enable them issue national registrations cards in Kalabo? 

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, I think I have already answered that question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware about what happened last year when some provinces were given enough time for issuance of national registration cards? 

Sir, in Eastern Province and other provinces, national registration cards were only given to people within a week. In fact, it was time for the registration of the Presidential and Parliamentary Elections and during the rainy season. Because of the rains, people were unable to travel to places where centres for national registration cards were being given.

Mr Speaker, if he is aware, what priority has he given to those provinces which did not benefit the way Northern and other provinces which were accorded first priority, did for them to acquire national registration cards?

Mr R. Chulumanda: Mwaice Northern Province yabafye mutwe.

Mr Sakeni: Mr Speaker, this is an ongoing programme. With funds permitting, we will follow the schedule. Early this year, my hon. Minister presented a paper before this House categorising which provinces received so much for the exercise. As far as we are concerned, we will start with the provinces that received less when funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

AMENDMENT OF THE UNIVERISTY ACT

199. Mr Syakalima (Siavonga) asked the Minister of Education when the University Act will be amended to be in line with the modern educational standards.

Mrs Chipampe: Mr Speaker, the Principal University Act of 1992 was amended in 1999. There are no immediate plans to amend the Act yet, but should need arise, it will be looked at again.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the 1999 Act was vehemently rejected by the academics? If she knows that, why are they not amending it now?

Mrs Chipampe: Mr Speaker, I have just said that if there is need to amend it, it will be amended.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

BRAIN DRAIN

200. Mr Syakalima asked the Minister of Education what measures are in place to prevent academic and other professionals from migrating to other countries for better conditions of service.

Mrs Chipampe: Mr Speaker, the Government has introduced housing allowance of 40 per cent of the basic salary to all Government employees in 2002. The Government also increased salaries for Government employees by 80 per cent in 2001. 

In addition, the Government will implement pay reforms 

aimed at paying salaries commensurate with qualifications with effect from 2003. 

The Ministry of Education is adhering to the principle of ‘equal work for equal pay’ as expatriate teachers are now being engaged on local conditions. 

We expect that at the end of 2003, negotiations with unions, the conditions will be attractive enough and in line with the Public Service Reform Programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education going back on what he said in this House, that by the time we assemble, again, the University of Zambia lecturers would have stopped going outside the country? 

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is just normal that people are afforded the freedom they deserve. While the Government has improved the conditions of service for our lecturers, it cannot arbitrarily detain its nationals if they do not want to render service in their own country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mudenda (Dundumwenzi): Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that most of our men and women, who have left this country to go and work elsewhere, are highly praised and most of them have been made professors there? But here in Zambia at the Copperbelt University we have not a single Zambian who is a professor. What is the hon. Minister doing about it?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the process of elevating lecturers to positions of professorship is an internal exercise. It is not the subject of the Ministry of Education.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! {mospagebreak}

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): Mr Speaker, as much as we know of professionals leaving this country, one of the reasons could be running away from extended families.

Laughter.

Mr Sichilima: Has the hon. Minister put in place any measures to motivate lecturers by giving them vehicles in terms of revolving funds.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Ku Mbala ndiye kuli ma ilele.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, that is one issue which we are currently looking at. It is certainly the wish of the Ministry of Education that we give incentives to our members of staff. With funds available, that is one thing that will be possible.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that this year when negotiations start, they will end in three months’ time as stipulated under the Industrial and Labour Act, and that the State will not deliberately prolong the negotiations and, at the end, give 40 per cent. In addition to that, is the hon. Minister aware that most teachers get K200,000 per month as a salary? Sir, 40 per cent of that salary is K80,000. Is that what is supposed to attract people back to Zambia?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Government is very concerned over the welfare of its teachers because, in the first place, we do not have the numbers of teachers that we require at all levels. Therefore, the Government is doing the best that it can to retain the few local and properly trained Zambian teachers. 

As to the current salary levels, the Minister of Education is aware. It is for this reason that there are plans to pay teachers handsomely by the beginning of next year.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Government assurance!

Mr Muleya (Choma): Mr Speaker, while accepting that academics and professionals are leaving the country, has this not had a corresponding effect on the reduction in academic standards at the universities and any other training institutions? If so, what have you considered a priority: to have the standards fall down or maintain the standards so that we can maintain our level of economic activity and pay the professional a little more money to stem the brain drain from this country?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the problem of brain drain is not only a problem for Zambia, but is a problem which affects many countries world-wide. We are doing all we can to retain all our best men and women. But I must also mention that a degree of patriotism is a requirement on the part of our professionals. I have talked to several such men and women. I am glad to report that we have a very good number of such men and women as lecturers in our two institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether it is not a contradiction for him to state that the Government is trying to do everything 

possible to retain the competent lecturers when only last month there was an announcement that fifty-one lecturers were being laid off. Is that not a contradiction?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is not a contradiction because these men and women have to retire. Once their contracts come to an end, we cannot detain them unless they opt to be contracted for another period of time.

Thank your, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister of Education deny or confirm the fact that the quality of education at the university has gone down as a result of the problems we are discussing?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is an obligation of any university to maintain standards and this is done because we have international and external examiners. So, I maintain that the standards at our universities are quite high.

I thank you, Sir.

Interjections.

Mr Tetamashimba (Solwezi Central): Mr Speaker, I am very happy to hear that the standards are very high at the university. Can he confirm that the statement from the Head of State that the calibre of the students emanating from the university has gone down, in view of his answer.

Laughter.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, by nature, universities are universal institutions, and because universities are universal, certain things are relative. I must stress that external examiners monitor the quality of our graduates from the University of Zambia. So, I can comfortably say that we are of international standard.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, arising from the assurance from the hon. Minister that his Government is doing everything possible to make conditions of service for teachers attractive, I would like to find out whether he considers accommodation one of those conditions. I ask this question because there are a lot of teachers who are living in houses that are outside school premises which his ministry has refused to sell to those teachers in accordance with the presidential directive on the sale of houses.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I must state that the Government is very concerned over the welfare of its teachers. It is for this reason that where such a facility is missing, the Government is ready to pay something in form of housing allowance.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: What about the sale of houses?

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, is the Minister of Education aware that in this country now, a Grade 12 child cannot even communicate or write meaningfully an essay, for example? Now, if a Grade 12 child cannot, how is the university likely to upgrade the degree that comes out of that university? I find that a contradiction in his statement.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, it is very exceptional. Our standards have international recognition and all examinations are externally set. Unless a pupil is not quite good, I would doubt whether the claim is very genuine.

However, Mr Speaker, there are always exceptions. Such pupils did not pass their Grade 9 examination properly.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr C. R. Banda (Kapoche): Mr Speaker, arising from the answers given by the hon. Minister of Education, I would like to find out from him whether he is aware that the University of Zambia or let me just say the universities in Zambia have failed to attract external examiners in the last two to three years because of lack of funds. How would he like to qualify his statement and the failure to attract external examiners to Zambia?

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, external examiners come in at post graduate level. We do not need external examiners for first degrees and so I am not aware of his allegation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, arising from the assurances given by the hon. Minister of Education in terms of quality and standards of our educational institutions in the country, can he make a clarification on whether or not he is going to give a statement saying what he has said here so as not to contradict what was said by the Head of State.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, what the Head of State said was quite valid and that was relative. Currently, I must state that the quality of education this country is providing is of universal standard.

I thank you, Sir.

Miss Nawakwi: Mr Speaker, I would like to state from the outset that I am a graduate of the University of Zambia. In his previous answer, the hon. Minister of ‘Iducation’...

Laughter.

Miss Nawakwi: ... has put it on the records of this House that at undergraduate level, there is no need for external examiners. Is he not just aware, or is it just the New Deal arrangement? 

Secondly, Sir, could the hon. Minister of Education inform this House whether there are any postgraduate programmes at doctoral level at the University of Zambia. Could the hon. Minister, please, clarify the two points.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister of Education!

Laughter.

Mr Mulenga: Mr Speaker, there is always absolute need for external examiners at certain levels and on certain programmes. Sometimes, the university personnel are capable of conducting exams without the assistance of external examiners. However, there are certain programmes which are of international standard or it is a requirement that we have to bring in external examiners.

I thank you, Sir.

CLINICS

201. Mr Kombe asked the Minister of Health how many clinics were taken over by the Government in Mufulira as at 31st July, 2002, and how many are operational.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr G. C.  Chulumanda): Mr Speaker, three clinics, namely, clinic one, three and five were taken over by the Government in Mufulira as at 31st July, 2002. All the three clinics are operational and are being run by the Mufulira District Health Management Board.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kombe: Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister know that Kantanshi Constituency has no clinic operational on a twenty-four hour basis and as a result of that, mothers are giving birth on the streets.

Historically, Kantanshi Constituency had six clinics, all operating on a twenty-four hour basis plus two hospitals. Now, there are new regulations that people have first to go to the clinic and then they are referred to the hospital. 

Everybody has been denied the chance of going directly to the hospital.

Mr G. C. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, there are three clinics in Mufulira, like I have already alluded to, which are able to service the communities in that area. On people being referred to the hospital, there is no hospital in this country, as far as the Ministry of Health is concerned, that will refuse to attend to any patient, especially an emergency like in the case of a mother almost giving birth. That is not Zambian. I have not had a report and the hon. Minister has not received any report from Mufulira on mothers giving birth on the streets. That is a new question from the hon. Member, but if he has details, we are ready to assist him in any way that we can.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr P. G. Phiri (Vubwi): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that in some clinics, there is an extraordinary charge of three pin or K3,000 for a patient who goes to the clinic any time at night?

Mr G. C. Chulumanda: Mr Speaker, there is an issue of cost sharing in the Ministry of Health and in clinics and hospitals. As for the three pin or K3,000 by the hon. 

Member for Vubwi, that we can investigate but I do not think our clinics, especially the rural health centres are supposed to charge that much.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given and taking advantage of the problems clinics are facing in rural areas, is the hon. Minister aware that in rural areas some clinics are manned by one person? If there is a workshop taking place in the district, all the clinic staff are taken to the workshop and the clinics are closed. In some clinics you will find a watchman attending to people for a week, while the other staff are attending a workshop. What is the ministry going to do to prevent people from dying due to wrong medication?

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Minister of Health may answer that question as it looks relevant to the question at issue.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, instances of that nature have to be handled at the local level. It is not a secret that we, with my colleagues in the Ministry of Education, have a shortage of staff. At the same time, in our quest to provide quality service, there are instances when we have to upgrade the skills and knowledge of staff. And at local level, we expect that arrangements can be made to cover a member of staff who is going for in-service training.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Haakaloba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health whether they have in their programme, any intentions of remunerating traditional birth attendants who, in the main, are the people attending to mothers giving birth in their clinics.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, we did a situation analysis. It is a question of having somebody with skills and knowledge to attend to emergencies like our mothers or nothing at all. So, we believe that we have to offer a safe service, and hence, 
the bringing in of traditional birth attendants who have been trained. Now, this was brought in under the concept of the spirit of voluntarism. And this is what we shall encourage and continue to do in our rural areas and elsewhere.

I thank you, Sir.

INTENSIVE CARE UNIT

202. Mr Kombe asked the Minister of Health:

    (a)    what is the state of the referral Intensive             Care Unit and the theatre at Ronald Ross             Hospital; and

    (b)    when the medical equipment that was             transferred from Ronald Ross Hospital to             Malcolm Watson Hospital will be                 replaced.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, Ronald Ross Hospital in Mufurila was officially taken over by the Government on 1st April 2000 and has no referral Intensive Care Unit at the moment. An agreement was, however, made for the hospital to access this facility at Malcolm Watson Hospital. However, this arrangement has not been fruitful since, so far, only one patient has had access to the services at Malcolm Watson Hospital.

At the time of take-over, there was to be an agreement as to the guidelines of the admission of patients to the Intensive Care Unit at Malcolm Watson Hospital. This does not seem to have worked, so far. 

In answer to question (b), the medical equipment that was transferred from Ronald Ross Hospital to Malcolm Watson Hospital has since been returned except for the Intensive Care Unit equipment which has remained at Malcolm Watson Hospital run by Mopani Copper Mines.

Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that our patients are not having easy access to the Intensive Care Unit, the Central Board of Health has been instructed to re-open discussions with regard 
to the agreement in terms of access to the Intensive Care 

[Dr Chituwo]

Unit of Malcolm Watson Hospital.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga (Kafue): Mr Speaker, may I know if it would not be easier for the equipment that was moved to Malcolm Watson Hospital to be returned to Ronald Ross Hospital. Would there be difficulties in doing this, given the information the hon. Minister has given to us of only one person having benefited from that situation?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, as I have stated, we feel that we could gain from shared facilities. Since this has not worked, it is the reason why discussions will resume, options being streamlining access to Malcolm Watson Hospital Intensive Care Unit or getting the equipment back.

I thank you, Sir.

ZESCO TRANSFORMERS

203. Mr Kangwa (Solwezi East) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development how many transformers were there in the country between January, 1999 and July, 2002, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Manjata): Mr Speaker, the breakdown is as follows:

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, rural electrification is very important. Milanzi Constituency in my area has not seen electricity since independence in 1964. Can the hon. Minister tell us when he is going to embark on rural electrification so that agriculture can flourish in the rural areas.

Mr Manjata: Mr Speaker, it is the intention of the Government to give electricity to every farming area, but the problem is that we do not have the funds. When funds are available, every rural area will be electrified.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some of these transformers that are installed are sub-standard? Is he also aware that transformers declared to be scraps can be rehabilitated by our own Zambian technicians and engineers, instead of taking them to South Africa where they are brought back, probably not even the same ones?

Mr Manjata: Sir, I am not aware, …

Laughter.

Mr Manjata: … but the truth of the matter is that most of these transformers are being vandalised. Thieves are removing oil from the transformers. As a result, they develop faults.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, people find it difficult to have the transformers connected to the main ZESCO lines. Can the hon. Minister clarify why it is like that. These transformers are very expensive in Zambia. Actually, less than half the price is quoted in kwacha, yet in our neighbouring countries like Botswana, where we export electricity, they are not as expensive as they are in Zambia.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Lembalemba): Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member has a better source of transformers, I think he can advise us. However, I am very sure that in my ministry, the department that is dealing with transformers, ZESCO, scouts around for transformers which are of good quality and reasonable price.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister reported to this House that there were a lot of transformers in the country, why has he failed to bring one to my constituency which I applied for some years ago?

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, it is very true that we have been bringing in a lot of transformers in the country, but the hon. Member of Parliament will bear with me that the demand for these transformers outstrips the procurement of these transformers because of financial constraints. We are going to find out if they are still there so that we can give him one as he has requested.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister explain why transformers are fixed and placed away from the boundaries of homes because this is what has encouraged theft and vandalism. I wonder why the ministry has not directed ZESCO to put transformers in the domestic yards. Can the hon. Minister explain why this has not been done because this would assist the country.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, the question from the hon. Member of Parliament is valid. Let me take an example of what we found in Kabwe. Transformers are put in very isolated places and that is the reason why there is vandalism. But, what we have done, Sir, is that we have asked ZESCO to try as much as possible to put some guards to be looking after these transformers and, where possible, put them in an environment where people can look after them.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr T. K. Nyirenda (Kasenengwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that a lot of people in farming communities are not able to access electricity because capital contribution is too high? During the UNIP regime, when you paid for capital contribution, it was given back to you as a rebate on your bills. But, now, that is actually for ZESCO.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, I think credit should be given where it is due. If the hon. Member of Parliament is praising what happened in the UNIP Government, what we know is that that Government was for Zambia and if they had done that well, we would not be talking about that problem today. 

All we are saying is that we are trying to see how best we can get the right contribution from the people who are going to benefit in addition to what the Government is supposed to add on so that we can give this service to the people. Otherwise, we are doing everything possible to see to it that most farming areas have got electricity so that agriculture can be stepped up.

Miss Sialumba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the oil that these transformers use is being vandalised by certain groups of our people and it is being sold as consumer cooking oil and so many people have found themselves buying this cheap oil from the streets? If he is aware, what is he doing about it?

Mr Lembalemba: Sir, my ministry is very much aware of what is obtaining as far as transformers are concerned and it is a very sad story. We are working in conjunction with ZESCO to see to it that this type of vandalism comes to an end. We are putting in place a very strong measure which I cannot reveal here. Otherwise, some people may be aware of what we want to do.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichinga: Sir, could the hon. Minister explain to this House the shortfall between the transformers that are being imported against the transformers that are required in order to fulfill Hon. Kangwa’s requirements in his constituency. I would like, also, to know whether the Rural Electrification Fund cannot be used for that purpose in order to meet the demands of the people, especially in rural areas.

Mr Lembalemba: Mr Speaker, all I tell the hon. Member of Parliament is that the buying of transformers is an on-going process. What we are doing is that we have put in place a mechanism where we want to see how many transformers we want for the nation. My ministry is undertaking that exercise as I am talking to you now.

Thank you, Sir.

KIPUSHI BORDER POST

204. Mr Kangwa asked the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning:

    (a)    when Government officials last visited the         customs office at Kipushi Border Post in         North-Western Province; and

    (b)    how many tables and chairs are at the post         and how old they are.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I wish to say that the last Government officials to visit the customs office at Kipushi Border Post in North-Western Province were two. These were Hon. Mushala on the 8th of September, 2002, and the Consul-General in the Democratic Republic of Congo, Mr Remmy Chipili, on the 20th of July, 2002.

With regard to question (b), the number of tables and chairs at the post are two office tables and four office chairs. These items were delivered to the post in 1996. They are, therefore, six years old today.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kangwa: Mr Speaker, I wanted to know the officers from the customs office and not the Government officials. I would like to know what means of transport the customs officers use when they go to the post.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I understand the purpose of the question. I know the road was in bad shape at the time but it has been worked on. There are only a few kilometres remaining for the road to be completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that at most border posts, there is a lot of money that is not being accounted for by the Government? What measures is his ministry taking to ensure that all the money that is collected at border posts finds its way into the main Treasury?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the point raised is very genuine and measures have been taken to ensure that all border takings for the day are banked.

Thank you, Sir.

GOVERNMENT BORROWING

205. Mr Shemena asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

    (a)    when the Government would reduce             borrowing from commercial banks; and

    (b)    what effect the borrowing had on the             bank’s credit facility to the private sector.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, Government resorts to borrowing from the banking sector in order to finance budget deficits. These budget deficits are necessary as they facilitate the implementation of projects and help meet revenue shortfalls. However, the Government’s intention is to reduce the budget deficit in the short term and balance the budget in the medium term.

As regards question (b), in a situation where the Government borrows heavily from its banking system to finance budget deficits, it effectively means that the private sector is denied adequate credit to facilitate investment in economic activities. This arises from the fact that lending interest rates will increase to a point where it becomes prohibitive for the private sector to service loans obtained from the commercial banks.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena:  Mr Speaker, is it fruitful for them to embark on supporting the private sector when the Government is going back to the supporters of this private sector to get all the money that these institutions deserve?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I did not get the question very clearly.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: The grammar was poor. 

Laughter.

Mr Speaker: It is almost never done. But, because of the importance of this subject, the Chair will exercise discretion by asking the hon. Member to state his question again.

Mr Shemena: I want to find out why the Government is maintaining double standards. It is encouraging the private sector to go into business by selling all its companies. At the same time the Government borrows heavily from the financial institutions from which the private sector could borrow.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, there is no contradiction in our policies. This economy will only be developed by Zambians. Those Zambians need to have access to finance by borrowing. The Government, too, needs to borrow in order to finance many aspects of development, including the purchase of motor vehicles for hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter. 

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

The Deputy Chairman: When business was suspended, we had just finished considering Question 205. I believe there are still some hon. Members who want to debate on the issue.

Mr T. K. Nyirenda: Sir is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning aware that heavy Government borrowing from commercial banks, for non-productive sectors, has forced commercial banks to stop lending to productive sectors like farming? 

For example, the Government-owned bank, Zambia National Commercial Bank, has not been lending money to peasant farmers for the past two years because they have found it easier to lend to the Government where there is no risk. In addition, the interest rates charged by commercial banks are very high because the Government, through Bank of Zambia, offers very attractive interest rates to commercial banks. Is he aware of the effects of this? The productive sector of this country is, now, paralysed because all the money has been lent to the Government for non-productive services.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of this and we are taking measures to try and reduce Government borrowing from commercial banks.

I thank you, Sir. {mospagebreak}

Mr Sichinga:  Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has acknowledged that there is a problem with Government borrowing from the commercial sector, thereby crowding out the private sector that generates the GDP. I want him to state clearly what those measures that the Government is taking to address this problem are because it has gone on for 

quite a long time. With interest rates at the rate at which they are, we want to find out from the Government what levels they would like to reduce these rates to in order to facilitate the private sector to generate the GDP that this country requires so much.

Mr Kalifungwa: I think the hon. Member for Kafue knows exactly why the Government borrows. The Government borrows to finance projects and the budget deficit. The budget deficit is being reduced. Once you reduce the budget deficit, even the borrowing will reduce. Eventually, we are going to balance the budget. When we balance the budget, there will be no need to borrow.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kalifungwa: Of course.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nakalonga: Mr Speaker, now that there seems to be a change of policy by the MMD Government to protect certain industries, are they going to control interest rates to facilitate borrowing? Of course, people must pay back and not borrow for good. High interest rates, which make it possible for only the Government to borrow, choke the private sector. That is definitely bad economic management.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, I acknowledge high interest 
rates do not encourage investment because most of the investors cannot borrow from the banks. For development to take place, people have to borrow. I think you heard from His Honour the Vice-President, yesterday, that for you to be rich, you have to borrow.

Thank you, Sir.

Interruptions.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, basic economics teaches us that any form of Government borrowing, especially the one based on consumption, is not good for an economy. We have heard, in the past, the Bank of Zambia Governor caution the Government against increased borrowing. How much has this Government borrowed from the Central Bank, so far, for the purposes of consumption and not projects as he is talking about?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, that is a very analytical question that requires extracting statistics.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Patel: Mr Speaker, on a point of clarification. The 

vehicles that his Honour the Vice-President talked about, for Members, are, in fact, loans which hon. Members of Parliament pay back. They are not free.

Secondly, could the hon. Minister clarify the purpose of borrowing K13.9 billion against a budget of K1.8 billion, approved by this House, to run the operations of the Challenger Jet. What is the logic behind spending K13.9 billion on the Challenger Jet when you have only spent 3 per cent of the total budget allocated to the public welfare scheme? Is that the pro-poor budget thinking that you have been promoting all year?

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, when you do the analysis of the budget, there are some times when you have overspent on certain budget lines, but you do not overspend at the bottom. The question about the logic of overspending on one level and under spending on another, I think, is a different question.

Mr Patel: Answer the question.

Mr Kalifungwa: I think, I have answered, Dipak.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ng’uni: Mr Speaker I would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to tell this House, and the country at large, what measures he is putting in place to compel banks, in this country, to perform their traditional role of lending out money to indigenous citizens like is being done in neighbouring countries. As long as you do not empower the citizens, there will be no development in this country at all.

I would like him to give us a commitment, here, regarding how the banks, for a change, since we have been under structural adjustment for a long time, will also go into a structural adjustment to loan out money to people.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, sometimes, there are contradictions in the way questions are asked but this is a liberalised economy. We do not control what the banks do. There are certain regulations from the Bank of Zambia that regulate the operations of commercial banks. Therefore, we cannot impose anything on the banks. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, when this Government came into power, there was so much talk about money borrowed from the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) and Development Bank of Zambia (DBZ). Now that it is quiet, I want to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the people have paid.

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Speaker, in all commercial transactions, there are times when there are debts which are outstanding and those which have been paid.  

As for FRA, most of the debts for fertiliser and maize are still outstanding. They will be laid on the Table soon.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning what immediate plans they have to encourage lending to agriculture related projects, especially after the very good lecture from the Vice-President on the need to borrow. Since the Government will continue borrowing and the high interest rates will continue, but we need to have low interest rates for agricultural lending, without which the good lecture will not work in agriculture. What is the Government doing?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, it is extremely important that this Government supports agriculture. Agriculture lending is divided in several ways; there is seasonal lending, to produce a crop for that season, and long term lending. In this country, unfortunately, we have had institutions that have lent to farmers and the history is that farmers have been most reluctant to repay – at times, as a result of Members of Parliament dissuading them from paying back.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President: This system keeps on repeating itself each year which makes most of the programmes, for example Land Bank, fail.

However, the Government is in the process of working out an arrangement with farmers to establish a farmers’ bank. This is a bank that will be owned by farmers, themselves, but, supported by the Government. It is expected that farmers will benefit from that bank because the farmers, themselves, who understand their own needs, will run it.

Mr Speaker, if I may repeat, there is no other legitimate way of creating wealth other than raising capital.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: It is very important that those who borrow pay back. However, in this country, we are getting too many innovations. One is where somebody has come, lent money to people that have used it for whatever purpose. When the time to pay back comes, they fail to pay. Some say that they do not have the money to pay back and suggest that the one they owe money should cut off their arm if he so wishes.

Laughter.

Now, this Government does not support Sharia law. That is Sharia law.

Laughter.

The Vice-President: People who have come here are, now, saying Mr Naidoo has been offered a mutilated arm to go back with to South Africa. That will not encourage others who want to lend money to the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukwakwa (Zambezi East): Mr Speaker, we want to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, following the fact that the public sector borrowing requirement over the last ten years does not seem to be improving, whether most of the banks, which have been closed were closed because of excessive borrowing by the Government, from that bank, inside borrowing by senior hon. Ministers in order to hide their indebtedness.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Mr Kalifungwa: Mr Chairman, to correct this impression, we did a study on liquidated banks. The reason why most of them went under was because of inside borrowing, not borrowing by hon. Ministers or anybody else. So, really, that is the impression that I would like to correct.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairman, I feel very saddened to ask a question, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to His Honour the Vice-President who, I think, this House holds in very high esteem. It would be improper and I would like him to withdraw his statement that hon. Members of Parliament tell debtors of the Government institutions, including the Food Reserve Agency, not to pay back. 

As the Vice-President, he should be the first one to know the levels of poverty and the performance of this economy. This also includes him, and I can state with authority, that he owes DBZ, the Food Reserve Agency and many other companies.

The Deputy Chairman: Can the hon. Member ask his question.

Mr Hachipuka: There must be integrity.

Interruptions.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Hon. Members, we have set our own rules to guide orderly business of the House. It is, therefore, incumbent upon us to observe the rules. I, therefore, appeal to you to observe the rules.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I will keep on saying this that the economy of Zambia can only be improved by its own citizens, the Zambians and not foreigners. So, the moment each one of us contributes in our own way is when development is brought about. If you do not participate, as a Zambian, in the development of this country, then foreigners, as I heard here, of foreigners here are going to seize the opportunity. They are engaged in all these activities because they have taken advantage of the fact that our people are passive.

Speaking for some of my colleagues here, I know they work hard and I do know that you may wish to politicise even the borrowing. I can tell you that even some of your colleagues on that side, the reason they went into difficulties was because the Development Bank of Zambia only lent you money to buy capital equipment, not working capital. So, you had a lot of equipment there, but you had no money to pay your workers and that is how your colleague there got into trouble.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: That is one reason. We have since, as Government, changed the law. We realise that there is no point in giving a person equipment, a sawmill, if he does not have money to pay his workers. It does not work. Now, the Development Bank of Zambia, once capitalised, will be lending both for capital assets and for working capital.

Speaking for myself, on the Copperbelt, the largest farming enterprise there is called Mpongwe Development Corporation. The next largest farmer on the Copperbelt is owned by a man who is here and he is called Enock Kavindele. I produce food and everything.

Interruptions.

Mr Situmbeko: But do not over-borrow.

The Vice-President: Listen, why do you not listen, you poor man? 

Interruptions.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

The Vice-President: I am giving you free advice on how these things should go. I am aware that when the election of 

that hon. Member there was nullified and the vehicle was taken away, he was walking after we got back our vehicle. Now, Mazoka brings you back here. You should thank Mazoka.

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, hon. Members are complaining that foreigners are coming to cook nshima in Zambia. They are cooking nshima in Zambia because they have seen that Zambians will still buy badly cooked nshima. This is why Zambia is a dumping ground. It is because the people themselves are not taking up this challenge. This is a 
challenge. No one will develop …

Interruptions.

The Vice-President: I need your protection, Mr Speaker.

Mr Haakaloba: Mazoka also needs protection, he is not here.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Hon. Members, let me repeat what I said earlier. If we are going to flout our own rules, the business of the House will not be conducted in an orderly manner. We are, therefore, called upon to observe our rules. I am sure that His Honour the Vice-President will get along and finish his reply.

The Vice-President: So, Mr Speaker, without institutions lending money to farmers, our people will never grow to become commercial farmers. They will remain peasant farmers because there is no credit facility. Nowhere can you farm without credit. Credit is necessary even though we have provided fertiliser and inputs. I am told by most of you that the problem our people have is accessing even the 50 per cent they need. 

So, the Government is now putting their heads together to see if something can be done through credit. So, there is no exception to that.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairman: I will only allow one more supplementary question.

Mr R. J. N. Banda: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning confirm that if you borrow from banks, you are dead. I am saying so because nobody in here can service a loan from a bank because the interest rates are extremely high. So, the Government is failing to control these banks. What are you going to do about this because I want to develop and employ people in this country?

The Vice-President: The hon. Member for Petauke has raised a legitimate point. Interest rates in Zambia are 56 per cent. In neighbouring countries, interest rates for agriculture are as low as 8 per cent. So, even if you are selling cocaine, it will be difficult for you to find customers to raise that money to pay back to the banks. So, as a Government, we are in the process of operating in a liberalised economy to try and find lower interest rates. This is why the farmers’ bank is necessary because the farmers’ bank will be run by farmers who understand their own needs.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: We move on to the next question.

Interruptions.

CHINGOLA/SOLWEZI ROAD

206. Mr Shemena asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a)    when the Chingola/Solwezi Road will be         rehabilitated;

(b)    when the project will be completed; and

(c)    how much it will cost.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Katema): Mr Speaker, the rehabilitation of the T5 Chingola to Solwezi Road will be included in the Roadsip II. In the interim, to keep the road from further deterioration, maintenance works have continued to be carried out on the road.

 Currently, the first forty kilometres of this road is under maintenance covering the application of an asphalt overlay. The remaining section of the road is being patched by the Provincial Roads Engineer, North-Western Province. This is most likely to be followed with surface dressing, if additional funds are sourced.

As soon as funds are sourced for this important road which forms part of the core road network, the rehabilitation work will commence and the cost of rehabilitation of the Chingola to Solwezi Road is estimated at K5.6 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shemena: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from our hon. Minister whether he has communicated with the Permanent Secretary for North-Western Province to find out how much money has been misused from January to date in the process of the Government trying to protect this economy from being plundered.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Dr Sondashi): Mr Speaker, I thought we were talking about the Solwezi/Chingola Road. It looks like the hon. Member of Parliament for Solwezi West is talking about the plunder of the economy.

However, my answer is that as far as the construction of the forty kilometres of this road, which was done by the Chinese Contractor is concerned, we have not received any report of money being misused. In fact, the hon. Member of Parliament used the road when he was coming here. He saw how that portion of the road was properly done. It has been constructed to a very good standard and I am pleased with it.

Now, as regards the remaining portion up to Solwezi, what we have done, like I said yesterday, is to instruct the Provincial Roads Engineer, North-Western Province, to do the pothole patching because we do not have enough money. The little funds that are available are being used to patch up the potholes on the road so that we keep it passable and in a maintainable state. I am sure that when the hon. Member of Parliament was coming here, he observed that most of the road had been worked on with the exception of a few kilometers that will also be worked on as I am concerned about that. In as far as that is concerned, there is no report that money is being misused. 

So, if money is being misused, maybe, the hon. Member is talking about the misuse of money in the North-Western Province by the previous administration. I know that the Auditor-General is auditing the books in Solwezi. If the hon. Member has any information, he should be able to bring that information to me because I cannot allow misuse of money meant for that road, just as I do not allow misuse of money in my ministry. I have taken steps to ensure that those officers who were involved in the misuse of money in the previous regime are removed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Haakaloba (Magoye): Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity, while the Minister of Works and Supply is responding to the question raised by my olleague from North-Western Province, to ask him to say what he knows about the Magoye/Chivuna Road which I was told yesterday falls directly under his jurisdiction. The road is in a deplorable state yet the contractor has been paid fully. Will the hon. Minister tell us what he knows about that road?

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, it is true that the Magoye/Chivuna Road is in bad condition and I am not happy about it. We are taking steps to ensure that we find money to do that road, particularly next year. We have included, in the estimates, a figure to ensure that we maintain that road.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. L. Phiri: Mr Speaker, knowing the importance of these roads which facilitate communication between important cities and provincial headquarters, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to inform this House when the patching of the Nyimba/Chapata/Lundazi Road will commence.

The other very important road is the Great East Road where we have seen the loss of many lives in road accidents due to its poor condition. We are now traumatised. Everyday, we are receiving reports of motor vehicles that have overturned, but the Government is quiet about this matter. He has explained what they are doing in other provinces. 

Can he explain what they intend to do about the Great East Road. When is he going to start working on the road? I want to be told the time frame and not when the Government will have money. Sir, to sum it up, the rains are here.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, it is equally a matter of concern that the road from Nyimba to Chipata is in a deplorable condition …

Hon. Opposition Members: Lundazi! {mospagebreak}

Dr Sondashi: No, but Chipata and then Chipata to Lundazi is another road. These roads are in two sections. I am sourcing funding to enable the road from Nyimba to reach Chipata because, as you know, that road is over age. Therefore, we would like that type of work to continue.

In the mean time, to make the road reach Chipata, we are working on ways to look for money to do the patching up before we can continue with the standard work which Phoenix Contractors did.

Sir, the Chipata/Lundazi Road is in a deplorable condition. I am unhappy about it. We are looking for money to see that the road is patched up. As I said, yesterday, when there was a question by another hon. Member of Parliament, I do not know what is happening with the Provincial Roads Engineer. Yesterday, I promised that I would talk to him so that he carries out the remedial maintenance of pothole patching up of those roads. 

This is what is happening with other provinces. I gave these instructions and other provinces are doing it. It looks like this is not being done in Eastern Province. When I go there on Monday, I will be able to deal with the matter more effectively. I will tell him to start patching up the potholes immediately and that should be before the rains become heavy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Katoka (Mwinilunga East): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Works and Supply tell this House what remedial action he has taken to prevent fatal accidents from taking place between Chingovwa and St Dorothy on the Solwezi/Chingola Road.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, the accidents that are taking place on that road are not as a result of the bad condition of the road. The recent accident that took place was attributed to over speeding by the bus driver.

And they admitted that they were over-speeding and they are going to reduce on speeding. As you know, the stretch he is talking about is being patched up, and it was not due to the potholes. In fact, according to specialists, where the road is very bad, you do not expect many accidents because people drive slowly. That is what it is. Roads that are properly maintained are the ones causing accidents.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima (Mbala): Mr Speaker, my concern is that I would like the hon. Minister to assure this House and the nation at large, especially Mbala and Nakonde constituencies, with tregard to the road to Mbala/Kanyala , which is a SADC road on which Malawi has done their part up to the border. I want to know what the ministry is doing about our side of the road.

Secondly, the Mbala/Nakonde Road was re-graveled. Part of it from Mbala which is eighty kilometres, the contractor has been …

Mr Shepande: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shepande: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious procedural point of order. Is the hon. Member for Mbala in order to attract us to a countrywide debate on roads when we are actually dealing specifically with the Chingola/Solwezi Road?

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: May the hon. Member for Mbala take that point into account. Can the hon. Member continue and ask the question.

Interruptions.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, the road may be similar, especially that we are talking …

Laughter.

Mr Sichilima: … about continuation of forty kilometres that has been done to the other one. In relation, I am talking about the clay from the banks of the river, which is put on Mbala/Nakonde Road. We are not going to use that road when the rains come.

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: I believe that question is optional. The hon. Minister of Works and Supply may answer.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for your protection and ask the hon. Member to see me in the course of next week so that I can tell him the plans that we have for the roads.

In fact, a Bill will be coming soon. We have been waiting for the National Transport Policy that is going to introduce the Bill. Once that Bill is passed, we are going to be flooded with a lot of money to do the roads. So, the Bill will be here and I will ask hon. Members to assist in the passing of the Bill. Because as I am talking, now, the owners are asking me when we are passing the Bill as they want to fund us for the roads.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, arising from what the hon. Minister of Works and Supply has explained to this august House, I would like to know when the death trap road, Maamba to Batoka, will be attended to. The road is in a critical situation and needs urgent attention.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions.

The Deputy Chairman: Like I said in my previous guidance, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply may answer that.

Dr Sondashi: Sir, I cannot answer that, I want him to put in a new question.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda): Mr Speaker, in his answers the hon. Minister has told us that he is aware that some of the contractors who worked on these roads did not do a good job but were paid. I want to find out what steps he will take to ensure that those contractors who were paid for their bad job pay back, especially in view of the fact that there are leaders who have borrowed here yet defend themselves with a straight face.

Laughter.

Dr Sondashi: Mr Speaker, I do not know where the hon. Member of Parliament for Nalikwanda got that information. I never said that there were contractors who did the job and were paid. I would ask hon. Members to be attentive when we are answering questions.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

CONSTITUENCY DEVELOPMENT FUND – NALIKWANDA PARLIAMETNARY CONSTITUENCY

207. Mr Kalumiana (Nalikwanda) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

    (a)    how much money did Nalikwanda             Parliamentary Constituency receive from         the Constituency Development Fund since         the inception of the Fund;

    (b)    how many projects benefited from the         Fund; and

    (c)    whether an evaluation of the progress on         these projects was done.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Chitala): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that Nalikwanda Constituency has received a total of K150,000,000 from the time the CDF was introduced in 1995.

In respect to question (b) concerning the projects, I wish to inform this august House that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing will be sending auditors to determine and evaluate the projects which had been initiated since the inception of the Constituency Development Fund.

In respect to part (c) of the question, I wish to inform this august House that no evaluation of the progress on these projects has been done due to lack of funds as CDF has no provision for evaluation and monitoring expenses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kalumiana: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given by the hon. Minister, I am wondering how the auditors are going to carry out this exercise in the absence of an evaluation report or a progress report. How will it be done? Could I be informed on that.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr 
Mabenga): Mr Speaker, an evaluation report normally comes 

from a technical body, the DDCC. So, what will happen is that when the auditor goes, he or she will be able to contact the DDCC who should be able to bring forward the technical report on the projects.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Moonde (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, may I take advantage of the answer from the hon. Minister just to find out, since the Minister of Finance and National Planning is your neighbour and you sit together in Cabinet,  he has told you about the CDF and when  it is coming, since I cannot ask him directly. We have not got for last year and this year. How do we develop without CDF? What is the problem?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker this is the third day that I am answering this same question.

Interjections.

Mr Mabenga: I have said it very clearly that the ministry responsible for the release of these funds is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. 

Hon. UPND Members: We need the answer!

Interruptions.

Mr Mabenga: Sir, I made it very clear and I am sure that the best thing my colleague could have done is ask the Minister of Finance and National Planning even at his office or anywhere. He will be able to give him the answer.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, the Minister of Local Government and Housing has said that this project started in 1995.  I just want to find out whether the release of the Constituency Development Funds to the various constituencies has achieved its objective or not. Are the amounts of money being given enough to achieve anything, especially looking at the economy, now, and the high prices of most of these projects?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, we are answering specifically for the Nalikwanda Constituency, but if there is need for all constituencies, we need to have an evaluation report prepared for all the constituencies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, first of all, I would like clarification. I do not think that this House must be used to show holier than thou signs where others can name strangers without being reprimanded.

Dr Kabanje: Ask your question.

Mr Lubinda: Anyway, the question is on CDF. Sir, the CDF is managed from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to councils, District Development Co-ordinating Committees (DDCCs) which MMD cadres in the name of District Administrators chair. 

I would like to find out whether the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has, indeed, in its possession statements of expenditure on previous CDF funds allocated to different constituencies. And if that be the case, may that information be availed to the citizens of this country so that the current Members of Parliament do not go and spend money on the same projects that the previous Members spent or claim to have spent.

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, first and foremost, the DDCs are very cardinal in the question that my colleague has posed and the DDC is composed of a technical body of persons and these people are not partisan at all.

Hon. Opposition Members: District Administrators!

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, if our colleagues want to have a report or reports on the projects for the Constituency Development Fund, I have said that we will be ready to prepare and gather information from all over the country and produce a booklet.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shepande (Nangoma): Mr Speaker, it is categorically clear that the Constituency Development Fund is administered through the office of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. My question is: when is the hon. Minister going to see the Minister of Finance and National Planning to have this money released?

Mr Mabenga: Mr Speaker, I have done my part, I have written and I have been promised that money will be released. That is where I end.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is in the House and so why should we labour on the same question for four days? Can he not just stand up and give a position statement. He must know that the people out there know that there is this Constituency Development Fund and there are little projects out there which are waiting. We do not want to wait any longer.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! I just want to guide the 

[The Deputy Chairman]

House a little on this issue. I believe that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has taken note and we will be happy to be assisted next time.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I think I need guidance and education from the Vice-President. It seems that, now, the hon. Ministers have a tendency of pointing to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning instead of answering questions directly. Can we know if we are going to go through to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning or the hon. Ministers will have to have answers for us from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

The Deputy Chairman: Order! Before I call upon the Vice-President, I would like to say that I notice that we seem to be repeating what has already been said.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, my colleague, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, has explained the procedure and I have listened. The procedure is that the Minister of Finance and National Planning releases funds to his ministry and then his ministry releases funds to the constituencies. He cannot release what he does not have. 

So, until the Ministry of Finance and National Planning releases the funds, there is nothing that the Minister of Local Government and Housing can do. We can be here up to next week discussing the same subject until money is made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukwakwa: Mr Speaker, we ask some of the questions for a purpose because we are challenged by people in our constituencies and by people we meet and so to avoid misleading, that is why we ask the questions. Can the Government confirm whether any Constituency Development Fund was sent to Mwandi, Bwacha or Kabwe Central Constituencies?

Interruptions.

Mr Mabenga: I will have to research on that one, Sir.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter.

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President (Mr Kavindele): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do, now,  adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

The House adjourned at 1155 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 5th November, 2002.