Debates- Wednesday, 14th February, 2007

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Wednesday, 14th February, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, I rise to make a Ministerial Statement on the 2006 Grade 9 Examinations and the 2007 Grade 10 Selection. I wish to inform the nation that the processing of Grade 9 examinations for 2006 has now been completed and the selection exercise of Grade 10 pupils for the 2007 academic year has been concluded. The following features are to be noted.

Number of Candidates

Mr Speaker, in 2006, 195,243 candidates broken down into 103,604 boys and 91,639 girls entered for the examinations compared to 190,389 candidates in 2005. A total of 176,263 broken down into 94,416 boys and 81,847 girls sat for the examination in 2006 compared to 173,552 candidates in 2005.

Number Selected
Mr Speaker, a total of 66,877 broken down into 34,804 boys and 32,073 girls were selected to Grade 10, giving a progression rate of 37.94 per cent broken down into 36.8 per cent boys and 39.19 per cent girls. This compares to 36.32 per cent in 2005.

The breakdown region by region is as per Appendix I.

Mr Speaker, in terms of absentees, out of the 195,243 candidates who entered for the examinations, 18,980 candidates were absent from the examinations compared to 16,837 in 2005. Of those who were absent, 9,188 were boys, while 9,792 were girls.

On malpractices, overall, only twenty-eight candidates were involved in examination malpractices in the 2006 examinations. The nature of the malpractice was largely that of candidates smuggling materials into the examination rooms. The stringent measures the ministry has adopted to curb malpractices are paying dividends. Schools were closely monitored during the examination period, hence, the small number of malpractices.

Mr Speaker, members of the public should obtain the results from the schools where their pupils wrote the examinations. No results will be given from the Ministry of Education headquarters or the Examinations Council of Zambia.

Sir, Grade 10 classes will open on Monday, 19th February, 2007 and the grace period ends on Monday 5th March, 2007. Pupils who fail to report at their respective schools by the end of the grace period will lose their places.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification arising from the statement made by the hon. Minister of Education.

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister tell the House that the reason for a high number of pupils failing to attend examinations are economic such as failure to pay examination fees.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we have a policy which addresses the problems of vulnerable children. Those who are vulnerable are given bursaries and other support mechanisms. So, we do not really think that failure to pay fees is a deterring factor in sitting for the examinations. Sir, there could be other reasons other than the failure to pay the fees.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister explain to this House why we have such a high rate of failures. 37 per cent on average is not good enough.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as a Government, we are very concerned about the integrity of our education system and the integrity of the examination process. In the past, we had a lot of problems in terms of examination malpractice leading to some problems in terms of the pass rates. What I have informed the House, and in line with the stringent measures taken to control malpractice in examinations, is a true reflection of the performance and achievement of the school leavers at Grade 9 level.

I thank you.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that 195,000 pupils sat for the examination in the whole Zambia and that 18,000 of them were absent. I would like to find out from him what is going to happen to the 111,000 pupils who were not selected to Grade 10, in view of the fact that an average class should have at least forty-five children.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, our education system has other opportunities beyond the formal system. We have Adult Distance Learning (ADL) programmes, Academic Production Unit (APU) programmes and skills training programmes. All these are different learning opportunities that the Government, through my ministry, has established. These opportunities are very clearly laid out in the education policy of this country which I would request the hon. Member to look at and study so that he understands how the education system is organised.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, these results are very bad. Other than just being concerned, is the Government happy with these results? How does the Government describe this scenario of a very bad progression rate?

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member was very attentive, it is very clear from the figures that we have some improvement in the progression rate from last year’s examinations. So, I would not say the progression rate was very bad, but that we are making progress going by the statistics which I read in this House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chilembo (Chama North): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that, in fact, it is the school system that has let the children down and not the children that have failed. It is the system which has simply pushed them out. What is the hon. Minister doing about that?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am not quite sure what the hon. Member means by the system letting down the children. This is because it is very clear from what I have presented that the performance levels of the children in terms of those that have been able to obtain certificates, statements of results and those who were absent. If a comparison is made between those who obtained certificates and those who failed, it is very clear from the figures that the children are actually performing. Of course, there is a difference in terms of selection to high school which is determined by the number of places that are available. It should be very clear to the hon. Member that we do not have sufficient places in Grade 10 to take every child. That is why we have a cut off point system as a selection criterion.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister produced a veritable forest, a mushitu, of numbers that took him more than half an hour to read. It is an extremely user unfriendly way of presenting statistics. I wonder whether he is agreeable to bringing to this House properly presented hard copy with graphical presentations so that we can see what is actually happening in our education sector instead of arguing from half digested raw statistics.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, mushitu is an acceptable way of presenting statistical information, but probably the hon. Member does not understand that there is mushitu wambuta.


Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member used a word which is within our culture. I hope he understands what mushitu wambuta is?



Mr Speaker: Order! In fact, the hon. Member for Lusaka Central should have interpreted what he meant by mushitu in the first place.


Mr Speaker: Then, the hon. Minister of Education would have also interpreted the deeper aspect of that word.


Mr Speaker: However, since the two are communicating and the hon. Minister is on the Floor, let him interpret the two terms.


Professor Lungwangwa: I thank you, Mr Speaker. Mushitu wambuta is a Lozi phrase which means a forest with diversity. What I have presented statistically speaking, is of course, a diverse aspect of the results. However, if the hon. Member thinks that the figures I have presented are complicated and not easy to comprehend, with your permission, I will be able to present a graphical presentation of this information. He can easily come to the ministry and see the various graphics depicting the different variables that accompany the statistics which I have presented either regionally or broken down according to gender and so on and so forth.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The Chair would like to guide further on that subject that when those statistics have been reproduced verbatim, any hon. Member is free to enter that information in his/her computer into the graphics on his or her own.
Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the cut off point for each region for both boys and girls and how comfortable he is with the private schools’ slogan of 100 per cent rates.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the selection process has taken place in the different regions of our country. I do not have the cut off points yet, but if the hon. Members cares, I can make the cut off points per region available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, all of us know that some of the girls were absent due to pregnancy. I would like to find out whether those girls who did not write last year, due to pregnancy, will be allowed to sit for their exams this year.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am extremely disappointed that the hon. Member who was in the Ministry of Education for a long time is not aware of the re-entry policy in our educational system. We are one of the few countries which, in the interest of equity and advancing girls’ education, has a policy of the re-entry of girls in the educational system after pregnancy. This is information which the hon. Member is very much aware of having been in the education sector for her whole life.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, obviously the progression rate is low and the Government is making progress. According to their plans, by which year does the hon. Minister see a situation when we will have a near 100 per cent progression rate?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, at the moment, we do not have a policy for universal high school education. We are still moving towards a universal basic education. So, what we have at the moment is a selection system at the end of Grade 9. As we progress in terms of creating more places at the high school level, the progression rate will subsequently improve. However, I cannot tell the hon. Member when we are likely to have a near 100 per cent progression rate because this is dependent on the resources that go to the education sector, especially at this level.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kamfinsa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what measures the ministry is taking to improve the standards of education in our schools because a 72 per cent failure rate is a very bad reflection on our education system.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, the question skipped my attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, I want to find out whether the hon. Minister is aware that for seventeen years, they did not build a high school in this country. Do you not think that this has created the abnormal ratios that we are talking about?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, again, I am extremely disappointed …


Professor Lungwangwa: … that the hon. Member for Matero who spent all her life in the education sector is not aware that high schools have been constructed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where!

Professor Lungwangwa: Right now, we have, for example, Kabelizi and Kafumbwe in Eastern Province. These are schools which she is supposed to be aware of. There are also others.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I would like a very honest answer from the hon. Minister of Education on the issue which I am going to raise. I would like to find out whether he is aware that some of the basic schools in the country have not had any child pass to Grade 10 and that this emanates from the very basic facilities that the Government is offering in these schools.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is a very interesting comment from the hon. Member. If he has such statistics, we will be very delighted to have them and follow up such schools to find out in detail what the problems are.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out whether it is possible to bring to this House the results of pupils who made it to Grade 10 from secondary schools and those that made it from basic schools so that we can make a comparison.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am not quite sure what the hon. Member means by comparing results from secondary schools and whatever other school. Maybe, he means something else in terms of the classification of schools, which, of course, he would like to know.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr E. Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, what has come out clearly from the hon. Minister’s statement is that, so far, only three provinces have an above 50 per cent pass rate. The rest of the provinces have less than 50 per cent pass rate or only 50 per cent of the pupils had certificates. Could he confirm that part of the reason for this pathetic situation, which will obviously lead to more of our pupils and people being illiterate, is that there is a limited number of teachers in these schools. Consequently, pupils are not learning enough.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the correlation between illiteracy and the pass rate level I think is a subject which probably the hon. Member may wish to inform the House on. However, our understanding is that by the time a child reaches Grade 9, he/she is literate.

As for the other part of the question which relates I think to the quality of education in terms of the numbers of teachers, yes, the Government has agreed that we need to put more teachers in our system and this is exactly what we have been doing. We are recruiting more teachers in our educational system so that we can reduce the teacher-pupil ratio in order to contribute towards creating an effective teaching environment. This is being addressed.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Phiri (Luanshya): Mr Speaker, what plans does the ministry have for the girl child in Northern Province considering that the pass rate for girls in Northern Province has been low?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, nationally we have a Programme for the Advancement of Girls’ Education (PAGE). This programme has been going on since the mid-1990s. It is a programme which assists girls in different ways. For example, through the provision of bursaries for those who need financial assistance and various other teaching and learning ways of assisting in the advancement of girls. The programme is in place all over the country and has to a large extent contributed to the improvement in the performance of girls. It has also contributed to the increased attendance and participation of girls in our educational system. If the hon. Member cares, we can provide information which indicates very clearly what is going on in our system in terms of the advancement of girls’ education.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, what will happen to the 128,000 Zambian children aged between 14 years and 16 years who have been pushed out of the educational system? The hon. Minister said that they have skills training centres to which they can go or they can take part in long distance learning. I am sure the hon. Minister will not disappoint me because I am sure he knows that there are less than 20,000 school places in trades’ schools …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is debating. Can you go straight into your question, please.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the hon. Minister is aware that there are less than 20,000 school places in skills training centres and the long distance education programme is quite recent, what will happen to the majority of the children who will be competing for these skills training centers with drop outs at Grade 12 who are actually being prepared in these skills training centres? What will happen to those little children?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, indeed, there are different alternative ways of advancing the learning process among those who are not selected in the formal educational system. The ministry has a policy of expanding all these different alternative ways of educational provision, whether it be through distance education, skills training centre as well as other provisions. If at the moment not every child is accessing these alternative ways of accessing further education, the ministry’s plan is to expand the alternative means of education delivery at the high school level. It is true that those different alternatives are not accommodating every child, but it is the ministry’s plan to expand them so that we can accommodate as many of those children who are dropping out at Grade 9 as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, when is the ministry going to give teachers better pay since it can be realised that the poor performance was as a result of teachers participating in the elections because the Electoral Commission of Zambia was paying them better money than the educational system?


Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the remuneration of teachers is done through a negotiation bargaining process. It is through this bargaining process that eventually remuneration levels for teachers are determined.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the children dropping out of Grade 9 are aged between 12 and 14? Should we encourage these children to go for adult education when they are under age …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi: … or for skills training because by the time they graduate from these skills training centres, they will not even be 16 years old? Are we not going to break the law with regard to child labour?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, once again, …


Professor Lungwangwa: … the official age of starting school is 7 years.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Professor Lungwangwa: Now, seven years plus seven years of basic education is fourteen years. If you add two years of upper basic education, it gives you sixteen years. Therefore, I am not sure where the hon. Member is getting those statistics from.

Thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr. Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, will the hon. Minister concede that in a situation where more than 110,000 out of 170,000 who sat for exams are not able to get places – in fact, they are very young and may end up on the streets – what is needed is to expand the educational system at secondary school level so that they can advance instead of sending them to distance education and other ad hoc and hotchpotch arrangements which will not really bring up the citizens that we want? Would he consider that what we need is to change the policy and build more schools at high school level?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, given the current situation as it were, it is prudent on the part of the ministry and the Government to address the shortage of school places at high school level through alternative ways. Of course, the construction of new high schools in the country is one of the modes that the Government is pursuing. Distance education is another mode that is being pursued. Other modes include skills training centres and so on. Therefore, these are different modes of educational provision and this is what we are pursuing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education the reasons for rushing the opening of Grade 10 classes when he is aware of the economic hardship out there.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is very much aware that the pupils and parents have been waiting for the results. They have been preparing for the re-entry of the children in schools. Therefore, there is no rush. We would like the children to be in school because that is where they belong. They have been given a grace period up to the 5th March, 2007, to address whatever constraints they might be facing.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Njobvu (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, in answering the subsequent question, the hon. Minister of Education stated that the examination system is stringent. Could the hon. Minister confirm that the teaching material is, therefore, poor?

I thank you, Sir.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member did not pay attention to what I said earlier. I made it very clear that the results that have been announced this afternoon are a reflection of the performance of the children. The ministry has put in place stringent measures to curb any malpractice.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education whether there are some pupils that have not made it into Grade 10 due to missing results as a result of missing answer sheets. If there are, what is the ministry doing to ensure that, by the time the Grade 10 pupils open, even those whose results are missing will be there?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we have a very clear system at the Examinations Council of Zambia to validate the examination process. If we had identified such problems in the process, we would have informed the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, what plans does the hon. Minister have for provinces with very low entries at examination level, especially Grade 9? I am alive to the fact that some of the provinces have more children, for instance, Southern Province where they practise polygamy. However, Northern Province is one of the biggest provinces and I think it has more children than Southern Province.


Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, Southern Province has very few children.

We have in place a fifteen-year expansion programme for high school education covering the entire country. We are expanding the whole education system as resources are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: If there is any hon. Member out of the three that I see indicating who has a brand new question, that hon. Member may indicate.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I seek clarification on the education facilities available for distance learning at Grade 9 level, especially in the rural areas.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we have a distance education programme that covers the entire country …

Hon. PF Members: Where?

Professor Lungwangwa: … and there are education materials that are developed by the ministry, which, of course, are used by learners in those distance education programmes.

In addition, we have APU classes all over the country, which, of course, many of our school leavers enter. Therefore, they advance their education through that field.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, recently, the hon. Minister of Education did inform this august House that his ministry had stopped upgrading basic schools to high schools. Is he aware that the high rate of failures in Northern Province has been necessitated by lack of high schools in the province?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the access at high school level is, of course, to a large extent, determined by the availability of places. The ministry is very much aware of the places that are available at high school level in all our provinces. That is why I pointed out that, as a ministry, we have a programme in place of expanding the high school level in terms of places as resources become available. However, we have stopped the upgrading of basic schools into high schools because that has created a haphazard development of the high school system. We would like to do things properly through a planned process because we are now in the planning paradigm as a country as reflected, for example, in the Fifth National Development Plan and the other plan.
Therefore, we cannot do things haphazardly. We have to plan the system properly and that is why we have stopped the system of upgrading basic schools to high schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Certificate Awards Statistics




278. Mr Hamir (Chitambo) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services when ZNBC TV reception at Chitambo Hospital would be improved.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, the ZNBC TV reception at Chitambo Hospital will improve after the 20 watts TV transmitter installed near Serenje Boma is upgraded to 100 watts under Phase II of the Rural Television Project which commences in 2007.

I thank you, Sir.


279. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs how many police stations or posts had adequate telecommunications and transport facilities in Zambia, province by province.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Ms Njapau): Mr Speaker, to answer Hon. Mukanga’s question …

Mr Muntanga: Who?

Ms Njapau: Mukanga and not Muntanga.

I wish to inform the House that there are no police stations or posts in Zambia that have adequate telecommunications and transport facilities.

However, 178 police stations or posts have some radio communication equipment. Attached hereto is a detailed tabulation of police formations, province by province, – divisions and units that have radio communications equipment.

Mr Speaker, with regard to transport facilities, there are 144 police stations or posts which have transport, broken down as follows province by province:


Northern 10
Luapula 7
Eastern  10
Central 12
North-Western  11
Western 9
Copperbelt 30
Southern 16
Lusaka 20
Units 19




Service HQs  01 0 0 0
Copperbelt Division 22 09 25 54
Lusaka Division  18 04 31 44
Southern Division  12 0 05 09
Northern Division  07 04 0 08
Luapula Division  05 03 01 08
N/Western Division 08 09 0 07
Western Division  10 02 02 20
Eastern Division  03 06 01 15
Kamfinsa (SPOM)  01 11 0 11
Paramilitary  0 09 0 09
Tazara  01 07 0 07
Airport Division  01 09 0 09
Police College  01 0 0 01
Protective Unit  0 12 05 12
Central Division  12 0 07 26

TOTAL  101 87 77 243 

Grand total for stations and posts with radios - 178
Grand total for stations and posts without radios – 330

Mr Speaker, Hon. Mukanga also wanted to know the number of motor vehicles the police have. Last week we laid a paper on the Table to that effect. So, I do not know how many times he would like know the number of vehicles the police have.
I thank you, Sir.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how the ministry expects the Police Service to provide quality and professional service when they do not have adequate telecommunications facilities.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Speaker, upgrading the communications facilities for the police is a continuous process that this Government continues to do.

Currently, the Zambia Police Service is presenting a proposal to digitalise the communications system along the line of rail. As you know, many benefits will come out of this. The system shall improve and increase rapid communication from station to station and from base to base. It will also be able to send and provide data and pictures quickly. It will be able to monitor movements of police vehicles as well as stolen vehicles. It will also reduce telephone bills. As you are aware, we are experiencing many difficulties with telephone bills.

Indeed, the stakeholders such as the fire brigade and the ambulance system will also benefit from it. So, we are upgrading the system, Mr Speaker, in order to enable the police provide quality service to the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when his ministry is going to do away with container police posts and build decent ones in order to improve on telecommunications.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, it is our wish to provide better police posts. In certain cases, communities decide that containers may be used in order to have police posts in place. I would urge all the hon. Members of Parliament who have constituencies that we should try and allow community participation. This is where communities will assist like has happened in Southern Province and in certain parts of Luapula and Northern Provinces where the communities have come together and moulded bricks. We have also assisted them with a certain number of pockets of cement to construct police posts as well as police stations.

I thank you, Sir.


280. Mr Lubinda (Kabwata) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport what Zambia’s teledensity was as of the end of June, 2006 and how this was distributed, province by province.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, in responding to the hon. Member for Kabwata’s question, I wish to state as follows:

Telephone Service Subscriber Distribution as at June 30, 2006

National Total

Name of Operator  Number of Subscribers

ZAMTEL   93,147

MTN    203,970

Celtel   1,140,085

Cell Z   94,436
Teledensity for ZAMTEL as at June 30, 2006

Province  Number of Subscribers

Copperbelt  27,969

Lusaka   44,221

Northern  3,221

Luapula  1,763

Eastern  3,435

North Western 1,538

Western  1,886

Central  3,258

Southern  5,843

Total   93,147

MTN Zambia Limited Subscriber Distribution as at June 30, 2006

Province  Present on Platform  %

Central  7,840    3.8

Copperbelt  110,442   54.1
Eastern  598    0.3

Luapula  608    0.3

Lusaka  74,284    36.4

Northern  3,821    1.9

North Western 4,026    2.0

Southern  2,349    1.2

Total   203,970   100.0

Celtel (Z) Limited Subscriber Distribution as at June 30, 2006

Province  No. of Subscribers

Central  61,770

Copperbelt  244,182

Eastern   12,674

Luapula  16,242

Lusaka  667,325

Northern  15,341

North Western 26,607
Southern  79,793

Western  16,149

Total   1,140,085

Mr Speaker, it is important to note that the mobility of mobile subscribers makes it very difficult for the mobile networks to give a true representation of the distribution of teledensity, province by province. Suffice to say, an indicative representation of the distribution is as given above.

The PSTN (fixed line) distribution has been given as per International Telecommunications Union (ITU) recommendations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the reason why 90 per cent of the Zambian population has no access to telephone services is their cost. I wonder if the hon. Minister can explain to this House why ZAMTEL is discouraging the Government from signing a very important agreement under NEPAD to allow for optic fibre so that the cost of phone calls in this country is reduced to increase the teledensity.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Daka): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank Hon. Lubinda for that good question. It is not correct that ZAMTEL is prohibiting NEPAD from developing the optic fibre. If anything, ZAMTEL wants to own the optic fibre in this country. What NEPAD has said is that when they come in this country, they will own the optic fibre. Therefore, we are requesting for that ownership. ZAMTEL is only saying that we should develop our own. If NEPAD come into this country, they should hire what will be developed by ZAMTEL.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


281. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what the current cattle population in Zambia was, province by province.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Speaker, the total population in Zambia is estimated at 2,799,965 and is distributed as follows:

Province  Number

Central   663,878

Copperbelt  124,483

Eastern  227,957

Luapula  13,570

Lusaka  223,397
Northern  128,990

North-Western 61,488

Southern   664,020

Western   692,182

Total   2,799,965

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, by far the greatest number of our small-scale farmers depend on animal traction for their agricultural activities. When will the Government reverse the trend of over concentrating on crop agriculture at the expense of live stock development as is confirmed by this year’s budgetary allocations where out of K1 trillion to agriculture, only K30 billion is going to livestock development, which is a mere 3 per cent.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kapita): Mr Speaker, if you look at this year’s Budget, the allocation to livestock production and veterinary services has risen from K7 billion to K47 billion. This is simply because we want to revamp that sub-sector of agriculture. Making sure that our cattle stop dying is going to enable us ensure that the farmers in all the cattle producing areas have good cattle and oxen to pull the ploughs and ox-carts.

Mr Speaker, we are not concentrating on maize, but we must admit that maize is our staple food crop. Anywhere in the world whether it be America or Europe, they look after the staple food crop. In America and Europe, their staple food is wheat. In Ireland, their staple food is Irish potato and in India, it is rice. I think we are duty bound to look after our staple food crop.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker is the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operative aware that the whole economy of our neighbour Botswana depends on the cattle industry, and yet we who have a bigger and better climate are failing to achieve this because of lack of funding. Is he assuring this House that the control and increase will be higher than what he is talking about now?
Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I am glad that question is coming from my good friend from Kalomo Central whom is himself a cattle breeder.

Sir, I want to confirm that I am very much aware of the fact that in Botswana cattle is a very big sub-sector of agriculture and they earn a lot of foreign exchange from it. This is the reason why in this country we have also begun to move towards ensuring that the livestock sector is well looked after. We must look back at what happened. Up to1991 under our founding President, the cattle industry was thriving. From 1991 to 2001, when another group came in, the entire disease control was compromised.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Bauze!

Mr Kapita: We are just beginning to revamp it which means we are on the right track. The people shouting here are the ones responsible for the mess.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


Mrs Sampa-Bredt (Chawama): Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what method they use to count the cattle population province by province to arrive at the figure that they have given. I have cattle and I have never seen anybody come to count it.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Osa nama.

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I want to say that fortunately, Hon. Mtonga knows that I never lie. I want to assure you that the counting of cattle is done …

Hon. PF Members: At night.

Mr Kapita: No, not at night, but during the day …


Mr Kapita: … at country level. There are two important officers in my ministry who are the front line soldiers. These are block and camp officers. Each camp officer has an area which he/she is responsible for. If that person…

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that the counting of cattle just like the counting of sheep and everything else is done by camp officers who are supervised by the block officers. In every district, we have a number of agricultural blocks and in each block we have a number of agricultural camps. Therefore, it is the duty of the camp officer to ensure that she or he understands what is operating in his or her areas. Therefore, the counting is done by camp officers. Of course, if you have to add and multiply, we use calculators.

I thank you, Mr Speaker


Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister, the former President of the Zambia National Farmers Union (ZNFU) and, as such, my policy advisor during the time I was Minister of Agriculture, when he thinks this country might qualify and fulfill the veterinary requirements for export to areas such as the European Union. I say so because in over forty years, this country, through the UNIP Government, the MMD Phase One Government, to which Hon. Mwaanga belonged, and the phase two of the MMD Government, has failed to fulfill the necessary qualifications whereas all our neighbours like Botswana and Zimbabwe have managed to do so. Will he succeed himself?

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central is very much aware of the fact that before 1993, we did not have African swine fever….


Mr Kapita: … beyond the Luangwa River. The system that was there in colonial times and federal times had contained the African swine fever to Eastern Province. It was a disease for Eastern Province, Kenya and Tanzania. However, from 1993 because of what happened during that time, the disease spread. At the same time, during that period, disease control was totally compromised. As an agriculturist, I feel that the period between 1991 and 2001 should never have taken place because we totally lost control. Agriculture was completely compromised. It was completely dead.

I know that Namibia, Botswana, South Africa and Zimbabwe, before its current problems, had quotas for the European Union. We have now begun to work towards that by establishing the cordon line which we have got to complete with the money given to us this time, between Western and Southern Province. We are going to begin to establish the foot and mouth free zones. Those are the zones from where we are going to export our beef. It is a long-term process, but do not forget that our country is very big. It will take a bit of time and money, but I do believe that if we get co-operation from hon. Members of Parliament from rural areas who are supposed to help us to ensure that the cattle do not move anyhow, it can be done before the expiry of five years.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, it is unfortunate that I can only ask one question on this topic.

Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives and the ministry in general, whether they understand that the livestock industry is under threat from Contagious Bovine Pleural Pneumonia (CBPP) which has now crossed over from Western Province to Southern Province as it is prevalent in Kazungula. Does the hon. Minister understand that with the advent of this disease, it shall never be possible for Zambia to export its meat to achieve the very goals that Botswana has achieved of 43 per cent of GDP of that country?

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the very big cattle owner for that very good question.


Mr Kapita: The ministry and I are aware of the complications posed by CBPP. However, I have said that hon. Members of Parliament can assist the Government because cattle disease has no political party or political affiliation. It will hammer cattle belonging to the MMD Members or those of UPND and even those of Patriotic Front. It does not choose.

Hon. PF Members: Awe!


Mr Kapita: Livestock disease is like locusts. Cattle diseases, like locusts, do not carry any visas to cross the international boundaries. So, we as Members of Parliament can do a lot to assist in ensuring that we sensitise our people not to move cattle anyhow.

Coming to my ministry, I am very content with the steps that we have taken now and the kind response from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning which has begun to allocate us sufficient funding at least for a start. They have begun to understand our plight and this can be done if we put our heads together. It did not take Botswana, Namibia, South Africa and Zimbabwe one year, but a long time. We had made a start which unfortunately, as I said, was destroyed for ten years of that period.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, from the figures that the hon. Minister gave in response to the original question, Western Province is shown to have 692,182 heads of cattle. Is the hon. Minister aware that this is a drastic drop from the numbers that were there in the past? When our grandfathers were looking after cattle, there were 1.5 million heads of cattle. Is he also aware that one of the major causes of this is the CBPP which has been talked about? As it is now, there is no single CBPP vaccine in Western Province. The last dose we had …

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member has started debating. You have asked your question.

Mr Milupi: What is he doing to ensure that we have vaccines against CBPP to save the cattle in Western Province?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament for that important question. I wish to confirm here that my ministry, with the new allocation of money, is going to ensure that the vaccines are available. However, more importantly, …

Mr Chimbaka: Government assurance!

Mr Kapita: … that is why you have seen that the allocation of money in the livestock sector has moved from K7 billion to K47 billion. I know it is not enough, but it is a starting point. The reason is that we want to enable our veterinary people to travel and interact with farmers for them to advise farmers on what to do. That is what we have begun doing. I know that the numbers in Western Province have dropped from 1.5 million heads of cattle because of disease. I am very much aware of that. That is why we have requested funds from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and they are responding to our request by increasing the amount of money. I would have been very worried if the ministry was not responding. They are being very positive now and we have put in place a mechanism to ensure that we fight disease. Therefore, it is our intention to be on top of the situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister agree with me that the figure of 127,000 given for the number of heads of cattle on the Copperbelt is inaccurate. I say so because, in Mpongwe, amongst the four of us we have more than 250 heads of cattle.


Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, I am not withdrawing that answer because that is a fact. I will go and check, but I am confirming what is on that list with regard to the number of cattle for each province including Copperbelt.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


282. Mr Lubinda (Kabwata) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) how many housing units were constructed by the Presidential Housing Initiative country-wide and at what cost;

(b) how many of the housing units were sold and at what cost as of December, 2005; and

(c) how many of these units were on lease and how much was being generated from the rental payments on a monthly basis.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Kazonga): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that there 468 housing units were built by the Presidential Housing Initiative (PHI) countrywide at a total cost of K27,331,485,261. Out of these houses, 430 were constructed at Bennie Mwiinga Housing Project in Lusaka while thirty-eight were built in Twapia in Ndola.

Mr Speaker, as at December 2005, there were 410 housing units sold at a cost of K25,534,421,136 out of which 408 were from Bennie Mwiinga Housing Complex in Lusaka while two were from Twapia in Ndola.

Mr Speaker, there are twenty-two houses at Bennie Mwiinga Housing Complex currently on lease with total monthly rentals of K10,450,000 while there are thirty-six housing units at Twapia in Ndola whose monthly rentals are K7,200,000.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the Presidential Housing Initiative was established to contribute to the housing stock in Zambia. From the information given to us, 468 houses were constructed during the period that it existed. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures her ministry is putting in place to ensure that Zambia’s housing unit backlog, which is now at 1 million, thus, requiring the construction of 220,000 units per year for the next ten years, is reduced and our people have decent housing.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for the good question.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, I would like to wish you a Happy Valentine.


Mrs Masebo: I would also like to wish all the hon. Members a Happy Valentine.

Mr Mtonga: On a point of order, Sir.


Mrs Masebo: Yes, indeed, we have a backlog of over 1.2 million in terms of housing stocks. As a Government, we have put in place a programme and, in fact, there are three programmes. The first one is on the municipal housing bonds. This is a programme under which this year alone, five districts will be covered on a pilot basis and hopefully next year we can extend this to all the local authorities.

Mr Speaker, 100 houses will be constructed under the municipal housing bonds by way of raising long term finance through the private sector on the stock exchange market. We also have another programme where all the local authorities have been asked to set aside a minimum of 100 pieces of land to be serviced and this is catered for in this year’s Budget. We hope that through that programme the private sector can work with the local authorities. The National Housing Authority should also be working with the local authorities to realise the construction of houses.

Mr Speaker, we are also working on a programme through the Ministry of Lands. In this programme, the Ministry of Lands has been releasing resources to all the local authorities to assist them open up more serviced land so that the private sector can construct. Although the backlog is 1.2 million, we are not able to give the exact figures because we know that since the policy was launched, a number of individuals have been constructing houses in the private sector, especially in big cities like Lusaka, Kitwe and Ndola.

Mr Speaker, although on our part the backlog could be that much in terms of requiring to construct 200,000 houses every year, it is also possible that this number could be less in that the private sector has been constructing its own houses.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I note that about 460 houses were built at a cost of K27 billion and at more or less the same figure the number was sold. Was it really worth it? What was the purpose and was there a profit made? Did you really want to make a profit when you started this programme?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the PHI programme was a response to the housing policy that was agreed at that time. One of the issues that came out of the policy was that we lacked resources and so the Government of the day decided that they could raise resources by selling off the old stock, getting all the money, putting it in one account and using it to construct houses, which, indeed, was a good policy.

However, when it came to implementation, we found that that was not realised. The resources realised were not all used for the construction of houses. In terms of implementation, the manner in which the construction was done was such that it was expensive. When you look at the money that was realised from the sale of all Government houses and the number of houses that were constructed, the two figures do not tie.

Mr Speaker, when it comes to selling, the National Housing Authority does not sell houses at a profit. Its prices are normally subsidised because the idea is to have more housing for all the categories of the people in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, the largest housing unit shortage is obviously on the Copperbelt and Lusaka, which has a backlog of 500,000. It is also in Lusaka where people are capable of building private houses. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the ministry is going to extend the boundaries of Lusaka.

Hon. Members: To where!

Ms Kapata: It is for the hon. Minister to answer.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I take it that the hon. Member is asking for the extension of Lusaka to Chibombo, Chongwe and Kafue because that request has been on the plans for a long time. My ministry has been working with the relevant local authorities that are affected and the traditional leaders. But as you will appreciate, these are dicey issues, especially for the east of Lusaka. Lusaka District is officially under Senior Chieftainess Nkomeshya and the land was given to the Government by Chieftainess Nkomeshya, but over the years, she has lost control. So now when you ask her royal highness for an extension of Lusaka to Chongwe, she is a bit sceptical because the people in her chiefdom have not benefited.

Mr Speaker, we are trying to work out a modality in which there should be mutual consent both by the Government and traditional leaders. We are hoping that under the decentralisation policy, we can have a situation whereby the chiefs will feel part and parcel of the Government and that when they give out land, it will benefit, not just those people in the district that is taking it, but also the people in the district it is being taken from, for example, Chongwe, Chibombo and Kafue. We have engaged them actively for the past two to three years although we do not seem to be concluding. However, we hope we can conclude very soon.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister’s clearly indicate to this House what Government policies are there to open up new areas in view of the large number of retrenchees and pensioners struggling for land in Lusaka.


Mr Mtonga: Is there any deliberate policy, as was the case under the good Government of UNIP, to open up site and service areas where people can access land without having to buy it illegally from some of your cadres?


Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, first of all, I have already indicated the various programmes that we have, as a Government, to increase the number of housing stocks for our people. Although, we keep saying that land in Lusaka is in short supply, Zambia is a large country and there are many districts that are actually searching for people to develop the land there. This is why, as a ministry, we have deliberately asked the councils to prepare a minimum of 100 plots in order to get the Zambians themselves to go and put up housing either in Chienge, Mbala, Lundazi, Kafue or Kasempa. There is good land all over this country.

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Mrs Masebo: The problem is that everybody wants to squat in Lusaka …


Mrs Masebo: … and then you do not even speak Soli.


Mrs Masebo: That is where the problem is. We want to encourage our people to begin constructing houses away from Lusaka so that the congestion that we have created here can reduce. Zambia is not Lusaka.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: So, if you want plots, they are available. In fact, as I speak, Mr Speaker, almost all the councils have said that they have created the 100 plots. I want to use this opportunity to speak to all the citizens that there is enough land whether you go to Chongwe, Kafue or Nakonde. In fact, they are searching for investors in Nakonde.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mrs Masebo: The council in Nakonde has created maybe 300 plots, but they cannot find people to develop them. So, if you have resources, go there. Mr Speaker, we have deliberately written to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs asking him to write to our Zambian embassies outside inviting Zambians living abroad, who we know have idle resources in their accounts, to come and develop this land because the Government alone cannot fill the backlog.

Mr Speaker, I am happy to say that this morning I launched two projects.

Firstly, we are reviewing the current Town and Country Planning Act because it is outdated and archaic and cannot meet the challenges of urbanisation. We want to come up with a piece of legislation that will take into account all these difficulties that are created. The current Act is so outdated that for areas which the hon. Member of Parliament for Kanyama was referring to, the law does not allow one to have more than two plots. They do not even have security of tenure. So, we want to look at the Town and Country Planning Act and the Housing and Statutory Improvement Areas Act so that we can harmonise them and come up with a Housing Act, which will be user friendly and help the private sector invest in housing.

The second project which we were launching this morning had to do with urban planning. We want capacity in the local authorities developed for special planning. This is planning on how the land is going to be used for social and economical purposes.

So, these two projects, Mr Speaker, were launched this morning. They are being supported by the Swedish International development Aid (SIDA). We hope that come next year, 2008, new legislation will come before this House so that we can address this very difficult problem that we are faced with as a country which has caused part of the problem of poverty in this country in that people are finding difficulties having their own houses.




The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the august House that the Structural and Economic Reform Programme which the Government embarked upon in the 1990s, which included the liberalisation of Zambia’s financial sector resulted in the entry of too many new players and the introduction of new financial innovations. One of the offshoots of the liberalisation of the financial sector was the emergence of electronic payments.

Sir, the development of the financial sector and its payment systems highlighted many shortcomings in the legislative framework in which the payment systems operate in Zambia. For instance, the statutes do not accommodate electronic payments, which are the strategic focus of payment system developments. Furthermore, Zambian statutes do not recognise payment system netting practices, particularly multilateral netting systems, which go beyond the common law principle of set off.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members may wish to know that the existing legislative framework for payment systems is fragmented as there is currently no specific legislation for payment systems. A number of pieces of legislation impact the payment system without providing a comprehensive legal framework for national payment system oversight and security in Zambia.

Sir, in order to address these legislative shortcomings, the Bank of Zambia Act and the Banking and Financial Services Act would require significant amendments. However, to amend the individual Acts would not provide the modern, robust and sound legal framework required for today’s payment systems. Therefore, a key objective of the proposed National Payment Systems Bill is to address the common risks and problems that militate against the provision of a stable and efficient payment mechanism in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, apart from the developments in the financial instruments, the liberalisation of the financial sector also created high expectations from customers of the financial services and greater need for oversight by the Bank of Zambia. This was to ensure that the customers are being provided with services in an efficient, stable and safe financial system.

Sir, the proposed National Payment Systems Bill, 2007 has two main objectives:

(i) to provide for the management, administration, operation, supervision and regulation of payment,

clearing and settlement systems. This includes the provision of sound legal basis for cardinal payment systems principles; and

(ii) to empower the Bank of Zambia to develop and implement payment, clearing and settlement systems policy so as to promote efficiency, stability and safety of the Zambian financial system.

Sir, the National Payment Systems Bill 2007 is further intended to achieve the following:

(i) to put in place a legal framework for the regulation of payment systems whose organisation and operation have a systemic impact on the efficiency, stability and safety of the financial system as a whole;

(ii) to give a legal basis upon which the Bank of Zambia can formulate and implement policies that would ensure the stability and safety of the payment systems in order to contribute to balanced macro-economic growth and development;

(iii) to provide an anchor upon which the Bank of Zambia could oversee the payment systems with respect to their management, administration and operation so as to contain systemic risk, as well as to contribute to the proper functioning of the financial system as a whole;

(iv) to provide a legal framework within which payment systems principles and practices such as netting arrangements, failure to settle arrangements, insulation of pledged collateral from insolvency or winding up proceedings and provision for certainty of settlement and finality of payment instructions could be impossible; and

(v) to comply with the international standards and best practice in this particular area.

Mr Speaker, the proposed legislation will apply to persons operating or participating in a payment system or payment system business such as clearing houses and money transmission services. The Bill has provided for both normal operating conditions as well as when something goes wrong during the process.

Sir, the payment systems oversight powers of the Bank of Zambia need to be unambiguously established and supported by statute. This is important to ensure that the Bank of Zambia does not only rely on moral persuasion in regulating the management, administration and operation of the payment systems.

Mr Speaker, in recognition of the dynamism of payment systems, the legislation has taken the approach of providing for the broad legal principles rather than details of payment system operations and instruments. The Bank of Zambia will have the power to recommend to the minister that certain regulations be made. The Bank of Zambia will also have the power to prescribe rules or other regulatory guidelines or directives as required.

Further, the Bank of Zambia shall have the power to approve the clearing house rules of designated payment systems. Furthermore, because the Bank of Zambia is well versed in financial and payment system matters empowering it with the ability to issue guidelines, regulations and prescriptions as circumstances warrant, will avoid legislative obsolesces so as to keep pace with payment system developments.

Mr Speaker the proposed Bill contains deterrents to discourage abuse of the payment systems and the introduction of systemic risk. In order to induce adherence to the prescribed conduct and compliance by participants, the Bill has provided for various penalties and, indeed, imprisonment terms or both penalties.

Further, it is equally important that the Bank of Zambia is clearly empowered with the administrative authority of the Bill. The approach taken of allowing detailed operational issues to be dealt with by rules, guidelines and directives allows for flexibility and is important for keeping up with the rapid developments and is necessary for the proper functioning of the financial system as a whole.

Mr Speaker, I wish, therefore, to implore hon. Members of this august House to support the enactment of the proposed National Payments System Bill, 2007, in order to bring efficiency and strengthen the operations of the financial sector.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to highlight the views of your Committee on the National Payment Systems Bill, referred to as the National Assembly Bill No. 1 of 2007, which was referred to your Committee for consideration on 30th January, 2007.

Sir, from the outset, allow me to register my heartfelt gratitude to members of your Committee for electing me as your Chairperson.

Mr Speaker, in order to acquaint themselves with the ramifications of the Bill, your Committee invited both written and oral submissions from the following organisations:

(i) The Ministry of Finance and National Planning

(ii) The Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

(iii) The Ministry of Justice.

(iv) The Bank of Zambia.

(v) The Bankers Association of Zambia.

(vi) The Zambia Association of Chambers of Commerce and Industry.

(vii) The Economic Association of Zambia.

Sir, your Committee wish to report that all the invited witnesses, in exception of the Economic Association of Zambia, presented both written and oral submissions. The Economic Association of Zambia excused themselves and submitted neither a written nor an oral submission.

Mr Speaker, the witnesses of your Committee all registered support for the bill. In doing so, however, they brought a number of concerns to the attention of your Committee. These concerns are recorded in the report of your Committee for the consideration of the hon. Members of this House.

Sir, after thorough evaluation of the submissions presented before them, and after due study of the Bill, your Committee welcomed the legislation as it was actually long overdue.

As the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has stated, over the last decade or more, the country has gone through immense structural and economic reform programmes which included liberalisation of the financial sector. This culminated in, among others, the emergence and rapid growth of financial innovations that include payment systems that are not part of the financial transaction culture of the country. There has evolved payment systems that have not been anticipated by existing laws, namely, electronic payment systems. Such payment systems have developed without any legal framework to cater for them or to regulate them.

Sir, in addition, the traditional system of payment by cheque has lost public confidence as many payees, including some Government agencies, do not accept cheques owing to the rate at with paper cheques are dishonoured when presented to banks for encashment. Most payees prefer cash payments because of the unreliability of cheques.

Mr Speaker, as highlighted earlier, Zambia does not have a comprehensive specific legislation to guide payment systems, particularly involving cheque and other payment modes other thank cash.

Sir, the Bill before the House proposes to address the foregoing. It provides for the management, administration, operation, supervision and regulation of not only payment, but also clearing and settlement of transaction instruments. In this vein, the Bill specifies the supervisory and oversight role of the Bank of Zambia over payment systems.

Mr Speaker, notwithstanding its support for the Bill, your Committee has the following concerns:

For any payment system to operate efficiently and effectively, its participants need to understand and appreciate it. In this regard, your committee are deeply concerned that if this bill, once enacted into law, is not widely publicised, like many laws enacted in this House, its implementation and adherence will be compromised thereby rendering it ineffective. It is the recommendation of your Committee that major participants in the national payments systems, including the Government, the Bank of Zambia, commercial banks, the media and others undertake extensive awareness creation programmes. Hon. Members also have a role to play in sensitisation programme;

(ii) The successful implementation of electronic payment systems is dependant on efficient and secure information, communication technology hardware and software and accompanying requisite telecommunication infrastructure as well as qualified and well motivated personnel. Timely upgrading of application software and programmes is cardinal to avoid fraud and unnecessary disruptions of the payment system. Your committee is concerned that while the law is belated with regard to the advancement in innovative electronic payment systems, it is coming ahead of the development of suitable information communication technology capacity. On the other hand, the payment systems proposed in the bill are already a culture in the sub-region and globally and can not be delayed any further. It is, therefore, the recommendation of your committee that the Government hastens the process of development, adoption and implementation of the information communication technology policy in order to provide the environment under which electronic payment systems will operate efficiently; and

(iii) In order to sustain public confidence in the payment systems and particularly with regard to the cheque payment system, the bill provides for the criminalisation of the issuance of cheques that end up being dishonoured, if the issuance is made willfully, dishonestly, negligently or with intent to defraud. The penalty for such an offence is one hundred thousand penalty units, currently an equivalent of K18 million or 2 years imprisonment.

Your Committee has two concerns on this provision. Firstly, the Bill is silent on how the prosecution process will be triggered. It is also silent on who in the payment system shall commence the prosecution process. Your Committee are of the view that such a matter should be part of the law and not left to administrative regulations to be formulated by the Bank of Zambia. Secondly, despite being a major player in the payment system and also issuing numerous payments by cheque, the Government is not provided for under the criminalisation of issuance of dishonoured cheques.

Your Committee, therefore, adopt the recommendation of the stakeholders that in Clause 33(3), page 18 of the Bill, a new clause be inserted to read as follows:

‘Notwithstanding any other law, the provisions of subsection (2) shall apply to an officer of the Republic in an individual capacity.’

Sir, your Committee would like to urge the House to consider the contents of their report as they proceed with the Bill which has your Committee’s support.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to record and express their appreciation to the witnesses who made submissions to them during the consideration of the bill. Above all, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to you for referring the National Payments Systems Bill for their consideration.

Finally, Sir, I wish to commend members of your Committee and officers of the Clerk’s Office for their professionalism and dedication to achieving the task that you bestowed upon them to consider the National Payments Systems Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I wish to support the Bill and advise that the concerns raised by the Chairman of the Committee be taken into account.

Mr Speaker, this Bill is not only timely and relevant, but inevitable. This Bill will empower the Bank of Zambia to oversee all the aspects of the payment systems in the country that are currently not covered, especially as has been mentioned in the electronic system that has come due to the advancement of technology. Other players also that are not covered currently, for example, Zampost and Western Union, will be covered under this law.

Mr Speaker, this Bill will ensure security of customers’ money in case of a wind up by a player in the payment system because all the players in the payment systems will be required to provide collateral so that in case they wind up, customers’ money can easily be recovered.

Mr Speaker, this Bill will specifically criminalise bouncing of cheques. In this country, the public has lost confidence in the cheque to a point whereby if I want to buy a house from Hon. Muchima for K200 million, I have to go with K200 million in my bag. People are carrying money in their bags because they have no faith in cheques. Criminalising the bouncing of cheques, will bring back the confidence in the cheque system so that we can begin to operate like a modern society and I can pay Hon. Muchima using a cheque and he will believe me.

Currently, Mr Speaker, there are only a few deterrents against bouncing of cheques, for example, K300,000 for a bounced cheque. This has not really yielded good results. People are still issuing cheques without adequate balances in their accounts. With the implementation of this law, the K300,000 will fall away when criminals will be netted. This Bill, therefore, will bring back the confidence in the cheque as a safer means of payment as opposed to carrying big volumes of money.

Mr Speaker, this Bill, when enacted into law, will cover everybody, including Government officials. The Government is the biggest payer in this economy and must lead by example. The Government officials who will issue cheques without adequate balances will face the law in their individual capacity.

In conclusion, Sir, this Bill when passed into law will ensure integrity, efficiency and effectiveness of our payment systems. It will also position our country at the level of international best practice when it is in full force.

Mr Speaker I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill.

Sir, in supporting this Bill, I wish to thank your Committee for having, at least, put the explanations to various clauses of the Bill because it is very important. They have done a very good job so that people do understand what is involved. What they have proposed in this Bill is something that is marching with time. My only concern is that while we are talking about electronically cleared cheques, we are forgetting that the majority of our people in rural areas do not have those facilities. It means, therefore, that the speed at which we want to transfer funds to our rural areas will remain the same. It also means that even if you want the speedy clearance of a cheque, being in Kabompo, Luwingu and Shang’ombo does not change anything at all.

Mr Speaker, I am a bit concerned about the Bank of Zambia being given the power to not only select participants to participate under this Act but also exempt. I do not agree with this. Why should we exempt certain people if we have made an Act that should be applicable to everybody? Why should there be a law that introduces segregation? Who is going to be exempted?

Mr Speaker, your Committee has recommended that under clause 33 they would like to include public officers, but the Bank of Zambia has power, for whatever reasons, to exempt the participants. This means, therefore, that some people would be exempted, although there is also authority that they could lift that exemption. In the first instance, why do you want to introduce a law that will introduce segregation?

Mr Speaker, this Act is intended – and I hear the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning saying that they will catch up everywhere, including in the rural areas. I think that he must also understand that by introducing this particular Act, the receiving bank could opt to demand for the actual cheque and apply the rules as per Bills of Exchange, Act 1882, and these are going to operate on the same levels.

Mr Speaker, the delays in the transfer of funds introduced what we would refer to as ‘Over night banking’. It is very common within Lusaka and Zambia as a whole for funds not to be transferred to the next bank in excess of a week or ten days without explanation. You can transfer funds in billions and someone can hold on to it and lend it over night and make money in between without transferring the funds. While this new Act is trying to capture this, unfortunately you are allowing a situation where he can opt to ask for the actual cheque on the same conditions of the f Bills of Exchange, Act 1882. This, therefore, means that someone would deliberately ask for a cheque to allow the delayed movement of funds.

If we have to apply because we are under developed and we want to increase the movement of funds, we should begin putting certain safeguards that would delay that development.
The hon. Ministers of Information and Broadcasting Services and Communications and Transport, I believe are alert by now that these are the things coming up in their ministries so that all areas are developed.

This afternoon, there was a question of: How much are we allowing for the ICTs to develop. As for the delays of signing certain agreements to develop electronic communications, the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport will realise that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning together with the Bank of Zambia are in a hurry to develop the country and every other unit that should participate is expected to move as well. If we do not, this will be nothing, but a mere rule that we will apply, but cannot utilise.

Mr Speaker, I want to agree with the Chairman of the Committee that it is important to assign the person responsible for the prosecution of this particular Act instead of leaving it hanging. Otherwise, it will be one of those laws that we apply, but nothing happens.

The second part that I would like to agree in total with is that there is need to tell all the people what this means. I believe that even a number of hon. Members of Parliament in here need to understand what this entails. If that is the situation, there is going to be need to disseminate information extensively to the people so that they understand exactly what happens.

Mr Speaker, we also wish to inform the Bank of Zambia, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I hope you are listening, that there will be extra charges by the banks for the electronic clearing of cheques. They will lump other costs and demand so much money that if you are not awake, by the time you wake up, you will find that a lot of money has been taken away from you. They do not want to pay for anything and I know that their job is to make money from people using pencils and pens. However, I think we should also be protected. As we introduce new regulations on electronic payment systems, we should also be protected. If they are going to introduce the electronic payment system, payments and costs must not be passed to the Zambian people. 
Mr Speaker, if there is a unit that makes money without someone checking on it, it is banks. However, I believe that the Bank of Zambia is now empowered to follow and check these various banks..

Mr Speaker, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Bill, especially that your Committee after a critical analysis of the Bill realised that it was long over due.

Mr Speaker, in the modern world where we live in a global village, there is need for Zambia to join the global village. Zambia will only do that by enacting a Bill that is going to elevate us to join our sisters in the neighbourhood and the international community.

Mr Speaker, when enacted into law, this will allow Zambia to participate on the same wave length as other SADC countries where the electronic payment system has been operational for many years now.

Mr Speaker, this Bill, if and when enacted into law, is going to cut down on the time spent on clearances of payments, especially of truncated papers. Nowadays, time being a critical factor in business, it takes long and sometimes days before somebody can have his/her money cleared either in the bank or wherever they may want to transact in business. If supported and enacted, this is going to cut down on time and that is a progress and a plus to the Zambian business community.

Mr Speaker, the old Bill was enacted centuries ago, in 1882, and I do not think there is anybody who was present then. It is as if we are still under the colonial yoke because the Bills of Exchange 1882 Act is still in existence in Zambia when we should be amending an Act that was enacted, probably, in 1964. Therefore, this change is inevitable. Besides that, the Bill once enacted into law shall provide the Bank of Zambia and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in particular, leverage to try and manipulate the system to better it for the benefit of the development of this country, especially that we have the Vision 2030 and the Fifth National Development Plan. All these require new legislation to facilitate development if we are to develop as a country, especially that the world …


Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, the Bill when and if enacted into a law, is also going to provide the Ministry of Education and the Bank of Zambia in particular, chance to build capacity, not only the capacity for the ministry workers, but also for financial dealers because these people are going to be forced to go to school to procure laptops and learn how to operate them. That is education and a development on its own. Therefore, there is need for this Bill to be supported by all well-meaning Zambians.

Mr Speaker, I would like to re-echo that though the Committee worked ably, it realised that there lacked a provision in the Bill that also gives a benefit to a person who is issued a cheque that bounces. I think there is need that for a clause to provide for the event of Hon. Lubinda losing out on a bounced cheque. Currently, while the Bank of Zambia probably benefits through a K100,000, Hon. Lubinda is left at a loss. We should consider also giving a benefit to a person who is issued with a cheque that bounces and, therefore, denies him a chance to transact with his or her money.


Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, your Committee also realises that in modern society, this Bill will even elevate the status of a Zambian in Washington. This is because once there, the Zambian is not going to have a backlog of cheque books at all. It is a matter of electronically transacting with the Bank of Zambia and he or she will access what he or she desires. There is cause, forty-two years down the line, to support this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up the debate on this Bill which has received overwhelming support by the House.

Sir, let me inform the House that as we want to use electronic means to transact, we are obviously very keen on the development of ICT. I would like to assure Hon. Lubinda that the ICT Policy has been approved by Cabinet and will be launched before the end of March. That has already been decided.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Lubinda stated that we must provide for the process of prosecution if something goes wrong. Now, I am not quite sure how the law operates because if we provide that it is a criminal offence, the Criminal Procedure Code does provide for what happens in the criminal case. So, I do not think that would be the best thing to do here.

Hon. Muntanga said that we should be very careful so that people do not start stopping cheques in the process. I think if someone finds out that something is wrong with the cheque, he must have a right to stop it. Otherwise, putting through a cheque which might have been written by your worker who wants to deceive you out of money because you are doing it electronically, might not be the best and the safest way to conduct business.

Sir, the issue of including Government officers might be the strangest law that we will make because Government officers operate as servants of the Government. There is no law which excludes them and takes them to be in default except in cases where the Government loses revenue. That is the only time when we can say, ‘You were negligent and, therefore, we will surcharge you for the money that the Government has lost by your negligent act which has made the Government culpable.’ The other laws do not segregate the civil servants, individually, from the operations of the Government.

So, I would like to request my colleagues on the other side (Opposition) that we leave this proposal out because it will obviously make Government operations very difficult. This is because in a company somebody can decide to be a signatory, but in Government, you are a signatory because you have been appointed the chief accountant. You cannot refuse to handle Government cheques, but in a company you can, actually, decide that somebody else is going to be the signing of the cheques. When there is negligence in the Government like I said, if it is negligence which does not lead to loss of revenue, I think we will end up arresting too many civil servants. So, we would rather, leave it open and not include the Government.

I would, further, like to thank Hon. Chimbaka for his support. He obviously understands what we are trying to do.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 21st February, 2007.




(Debate resumed)

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute on the Motion moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, it is yet another time, in this House, when we are faced with another talk show with little action. We have seen, in this House, more often than not, a situation where hon. Members who are in the Opposition speak a different language when they cross over to the Government side.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have seen hon. Members who have said …

Mr Mtonga: Teta!

Mr Kambwili: … negative things during the budget debates when they are in the Opposition and over night, when they join the Front Bench, they change their language.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, if this is not checked, if we have no principles to support what we believe in, we will never come up with a budget that will have an element regarding poverty alleviation for our people in the communities.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have seen how controlling officers are mismanaging our resources. We have seen how permanent secretaries, clerical officers and other supporting staff in the Civil Service are building mansions using our money provided for in the Budget without any proper checks and balances. Unless we put measures in place to ensure that public money provided for in the Budget goes to its intended applications, we shall be talking about a good and bad Budget forever.

Mr Speaker, it is disheartening to note that today we are discussing the 2007 Budget, and yet K1 billion which was provided for in last year’s Budget is still lying in the commercial banks. What are the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Controlling Officers doing to make sure that money that is meant for people is applied to its intended use?

Hon. Opposition Member: At the right time!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the attitude of the Controlling Officers is becoming unbecoming. For instance, in my constituency, money for the construction of a community school at Kasununu has been lying in a bank at the provincial headquarters in Ndola. This money was provided for in the 2005 Budget and not in the 2006 Budget. When we approach the Permanent Secretary to ask when the construction of the school would start, she says we have to wait for the hon. Minister to have time so that he can come and lay a foundation stone for us to start building.

Mr Speaker, people in that area do not have a school. Therefore, why should we have to wait for Hon. Mwansa Mbulakulima to find time to lay a foundation stone for us to start building a school for the poor people of Kasununu? Unless we change our attitude, we shall talk and talk forever and no action will be taken and the Budget will just be a simple piece of paper that will mean nothing to the ordinary people on the streets.

Mr Speaker, it is also disheartening to note that when the Budget is being delivered by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, very few of our people in the townships are interested to switch on the television so that they can hear what is in it. The reason is that this Budget is not explained to the ordinary men on the streets. When you talk to them about the Budget, some of them do not even know when the Budget Speech will be delivered. Some of them do not even know the importance of Parliament sitting to approve a Budget. The reason is that the Budget has just become an issue of the Executive and the hon. Members of Parliament and not an issue of the ordinary men on the streets. 
Mr Speaker, we need to explain and educate our people on the importance of the Budget. Only then will people start taking us seriously when we talk about the Budget.

Mr Speaker, we have been told in this Budget that the economy has grown by a certain percentage. I would like to know what that growth translates into for the ordinary man on the street. What does that growth translate into for the man in Chishamwamba in Mporokoso? It will make sense if our people start to feel it. If growth has to be appreciated by our people, it should be translated into poverty alleviation. We are talking about growth of the economy in this House when people in Kasununu, Roan and Luanshya Constituencies do not even know where their next meal will come from. It is a shame. We must talk about economic growth knowing for sure that even the man in Kasununu, which is a shanty compound, will feel that growth of the economy. If the ordinary Zambians do not feel the growth of the economy, I am afraid it is a sheer waste of time. We shall talk and talk and people will not take us seriously.

Mr Speaker, we are told about dropping inflation. When you talk to the ordinary men on the street about inflation, they do not even understand what it is. The reason is that the drop in inflation does not translate into poverty alleviation. Unless that is done, inflation will be a word understood by scholars and the man on the street will never appreciate it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, many are the times that we provide for so many billions of kwacha which do not meet the ordinary man on the street in Kasununu and Mporokoso. The only way that development can quickly reach the people is by improving on the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the CDF is the only way that people will appreciate the Government’s commitment to development.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, for instance, in the fifteen years that this Government has been in power, they have been misdirecting and misapplying CDF.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, what they have been doing is that they go to small clubs in the communities and distribute K2 million to each. If ten years on you ask how the CDF was utilised, you will not see even a single shelter which was built from the CDF.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we need to move out from sharing K2 million among the small groups in the community to building infrastructure. For instance, we need to move to a situation where the whole K60 million goes to build a mortuary in Roan Constituency or a laboratory at Mpatamatu Secondary School. That way, we will be talking about development. If we continue with the situation which this Government, which calls itself a listening Government, has come up with of forming small vegetable selling and sewing groups in the constituencies and giving them K2 million each, which, up to now, they cannot account for, we shall lag behind in development forever.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, on pay as you earn (PAYE), the cry of the people out there is for tax to, at least, be cushioned with regard to tax. What do we see instead? A meagre increase from K300,000 to K500,000 per month as the minimum taxable wage. This is unacceptable. What our people want is a situation …

Mrs Masebo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order, but I have to. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to accuse the Government on the usage of CDF when it is the committees, the councils at that local level and the hon. Members of Parliament that decide how to use it? Is he in order to mislead the public? I ask for your serious ruling, Mr Speaker.


Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, through that point of order, is informing the hon. Member for Roan of the procedures that are followed to eventually come up with and implement development projects in the various constituencies. She is saying you and your constituency team are responsible for what should go on there. May you continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, if the Government provides guidelines on how to use the CDF without following them up, it is as good as the Government misapplying the CDF. Mr Speaker, we have never seen any audits…

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Mr Speaker!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, when we debate as hon. Members of Parliament, we should know that people are listening out there. Therefore, we should try to come to this House and show the people that we know what we are talking about.
Is the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating so well in order to say that there are no guidelines on how to expend the CDF when every year we are shown guidelines on how to spend this money and the Government does not tell us who to give K2 million to? It is the committees which actually choose who to give the money to. Is he in order to base his argument on something which is based on …

Hon. Government Members: Ignorance!

Mr Shakafuswa: No, not ignorance, but an assumption.

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is saying that the hon. Member for Roan should know that there are guidelines dealing with modalities regarding the CDF

However, the Chair is listening carefully. He was saying that yes, there are guidelines, but there is no follow-up. That was the point he was making. There is no follow-up from the Government to see what exactly is going on in the field. Maybe, he can expand his reasoning on this matter. May he continue.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, may I just progress.

Sir, it is the cry of the ordinary worker on the street to be cushioned through the reduction of PAYE. What we have seen is a small movement from K300,000 to K500,000. What the people out there expected was for the minimum taxable wage to go up to K1 million.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, PAYE has become a household enemy of all the workers in Zambia. When you talk about PAYE, you can even be beaten in some of the homes. Everyday and every month end, the cry that you hear in the mining townships and teachers’ compounds is with regard to PAYE. This Government would have done better to, at least, consider, for the first time, to move the minimum taxable wage to K1 million so that families can have more money in their pockets, as per PF Manifesto, to spend on their children.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, why should we in our own country plead with and negotiate with investors over royalties? This is our country. These mines were being run by Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines and all the profits were used for the benefit of developing Zambia.

Mr Speaker, today, because we did not check properly, we entered into certain agreements with these investors that are now working against us.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kambwili: At a time that the price of copper is very high, Zambia is getting completely nothing out of the sale of copper.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I want to support the Government on the issue of going to negotiate with investors. The investors must know that if they are not ready to negotiate with the Government for the betterment of our people, we are going to bring a Private Members’ Motion to nationalise the mines.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, it is high time that we started to benefit from the mines.

Mr Speaker, let me now come to the provision in the Budget on the revolving Fund for small-scale miners. I have some small-scale miners in my constituency. I do not know which people benefit from this money and what kind of red tape involved to access this money because most small-scale miners partner with illegal Lebanese to mine precious stones. Yet, in the Budget, we are being told that there is a provision for a revolving fund to support small-scale miners.

Mr Speaker, it is high time we reduced some red tape so that our people can avoid being crooked and swindled by these foreigners, in particular the Senegalese.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we have heard a lot cries…

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Member for Roan, you cannot make reference to the Lebanese who cannot defend themselves in this House. You may debate the principles, but avoid characterisation.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘Lebanese’ and substitute it with ‘foreigners’. These are the people that are disadvantaging our people in as far as small-scale mining is concerned.

Sir, the issue of mining must be looked at seriously. Here is an investor who buys the whole Luanshya Mine, opens one quarter of it and floods the mines that we suffered for. The situation in Luanshya is a bomb that will explode soon. Those mines are operated by getting the underground water, redirecting it to the normal channels and discarding it in the big rivers like the Kafue and the Zambezi. What is obtaining in Luanshya now is a situation where water is just rising in the mines without being taken out. Sooner or later, we are going to have a disaster where sections, three, six, and five are going to have terrible floods not as a result of the rainy season, but due to the water that is in the mine. I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to seriously look into this issue before life is lost in Luanshya.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, with regard to energy, let us be serious when we talk about things that affect our people. In 2005, we had a terrible shortage of diesel and petrol due to Indeni. The problem was identified and a minister was even demoted. One year later, we see the same Minister being elevated to another position.


Mr Speaker: Order!

That line of debate is unacceptable in this House. There is no way you can insinuate like that. Withdraw your statement.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I withdraw my statement.

Sir, let us make sure that the people who are entrusted with looking after the affairs of the economy, more especially in terms of energy, are serious.

Mr Speaker, ZESCO tariffs are so high that an ordinary person on the street or in Mpatamatu cannot afford electricity. We are talking about rural electrification. What is the point of taking electricity to the rural areas when the people in the rural areas cannot afford to pay for it? We need to seriously look at the ZESCO tariffs if our people are going to see development in the constituencies.
Mr Speaker, on health, we are told that 4,000, frontline personnel are going to be employed. If you go to Roan Constituency, clinics close at 1630 hours simply because there is no staff.

Sir, we have to emulate what they are doing in the developed world where nurses have started migrating to other places. We need to move from an emphasis of training nurses to an emphasis on training care assistants. If we start training care assistants, we will be able to overcome the problem of a shortage of nurses in hospitals.

Mr Speaker, in the Budget, we are told that the procurement of drugs was as planned. It is a shame if that was the plan of this Government because I do not see any efficiency in the procurement of drugs. Right now, in Roan Constituency, there is no anti-malaria drug and out-patients are being given quinine. In my layman’s understanding, quinine is a drug which is supposed to be administered when a patient is admitted to hospital. Instead, patients are now being given quinine which has very bad side effects to take home without proper management. We are told in the Budget that the procurement of drugs was as per plan. If that was the plan, then it is a very bad plan and you must revisit it.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of doctors, we are failing to pay our doctors decent salaries. We know the reason we do not have doctors and keep lying to ourselves that we are going to employ 1,000 doctors. Yes, you are going to employ those 1,000 doctors, but the issue is, are you going to maintain them? Are you going to have them work for the Government for three or four years? All the doctors are doing now is gaining experience from our hospitals and because of the meagre salaries, the following year we see them go to Botswana or the United Kingdom. Unless we become serious about remunerating our doctors according to what they put in, then this country will forever lose doctors to the developed world.

On HIV/AIDS, Mr Speaker, I have said before that we need to enact laws that will prevent HIV/AIDS. We need to come up with a law that criminalise prostitution. Unless we arrest all the prostitutes on the streets, AIDS in Zambia will never cease.

Mr Kambwili: We have to be extremely serious on this issue. Unless prostitutes are done away with, then we shall not fight HIV/AIDS.


Mr Kambwili: In conclusion, Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to this Government to seriously consider doing away with the Office of District Commissioner. This office is just taking our resources and should not exist.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: It is not serving any purpose except for political gain for the ruling party. We have a District Administrative Officer (DAO) who is a qualified person in the district. The DAO is able to run …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, thank you very much. First and foremost, I want to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for his very good speech. Good budget speeches started in 2002.

Mr Mtonga: When you were in UPND!

Mr Tetamashimba: Yes, before I was expelled from the UPND by Hon. Mtonga.


Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I want to talk about the highlights in the Budget Speech. The Zambian people must know that before 2001, when the leadership of this country involved some of the leaders in the Opposition today, there was no growth in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is only when the New Deal Administration came into power that we started having growth in the economy. I must thank this Government because this year there is 5.8 per cent growth in the economy beating what we had in 2005.

Mr Speaker, on inflation, we all know that up to 2001 when some of the leaders who are now seated in the ‘Front Bench’ of the Opposition were in government, inflation in this country was above 30 per cent. I am sure Hon. Dr Machungwa will agree with me because he was in government.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is only, Mr Speaker, …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, is Hon. Tetamashimba, who in his manner of debate wants to amplify everything even if it is not true, not aware that in 1991 inflation was close to 200 per cent and that we brought it down to 30 per cent and now it is going further down? Is he not aware that there was a foundation laid? When you build a house, you start from somewhere. We should not just forgetting everything and behave like everything started yesterday?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Luapula, through that point of order, is reminding the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply that, in fact, the success that he is referring to is based on the foundation that he, when in Government, built. May you continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, there was nothing like that before 2001.


Mr Tetamashimba: The government of 1991 to 2001 is on record as having stood on the Floor of the House under one of the leaders in the Opposition to tell us that they would never give any maize subsidy.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries Initiative (HIPC) which was started before 2001 was fought by the ministers who were in the government then, Hon. Dr Machungwa having been one. It has only been achieved under the New Deal Administration under President Mwanawasa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, it is on record that the councils during Dr Kaunda’s rule were doing very well. We all know that a leader of the Opposition is the one who destroyed the local authorities by employing his cadres as town clerks and so on. We are now changing the law so that we can have good management in the councils.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order!

The Chair believes and is satisfied that the hon. Deputy Minister veering in an entirely different direction. May he debate the Budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, we are putting in place people who can run the districts like the district commissioners, who at the current rate are at the level of deputy permanent secretaries. These are civil servants who coordinate all activities in the districts and these started before 2001. It is the Members of Parliament here who asked us to change from district administrator to district commissioner.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Sir, this Government must be given credit for mining.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: You know very well that the government which ended in 2001 made President Mwanawasa’s ministers fail to go to Luanshya. It was a no go area.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Tetamashimba: President Mwanawasa had to put in taxpayers’ money to revive the mines in Luanshya. Therefore, I expected the hon. Member of Parliament for Luanshya to, at least, to say, ‘Thank you,’ to President Mwanawasa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: This is because without him having put taxpayers’ money in Luanshya Mine, that mine was not going to be there today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: The Government that ended in 2001 destroyed all the mines.

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member, who is debating so well in this House, in order to mislead the nation that there was a government which Hon. Dr Machungwa and other good leaders, who are on this side of the House, were leading, forgetting that Hon. Mwaanga and Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba, sitting on the right side of the House, were actually holding higher portfolios in that government which failed to perform? Is he in order to insinuate that?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Order! 
My ruling is that, that kind of debating regarding who was on which side of the House and who did this and did not do that is not admissible. May the House debate the Motion regarding the 2007 Budget.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was talking about the growth of the economy.

Madam Speaker, the mining sector which was dead before the New Deal Administration came into government is now alive. We know how the houses at Kansanshi were demolished. You are aware that because of the New Deal Administration’s economic policies, bigger investors than those that used to come in the past have come to the country.

Madam Speaker, I was very surprised yesterday when one of the hon. Members on the left stated that there was a Chinese face on this Budget. The picture which is here is for the President of one of the fastest growing economies on earth, the Chinese President, Hu Jintao. On this picture, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, was unveiling something that has never happened in Africa before. The people on the Copperbelt, Chambeshi in particular, are going to be the beneficiaries of this project. There will be more than US$800 million coming into the Copperbelt and more than 60,000 jobs created. Has that ever happened before? The answer is no. People should give credit where it is due.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Bwezapo, mdala!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, the economy is also growing.

Madam Speaker, the people who were in government before 2001 started the problem of street kids. When President Kaunda left government, there were no street kids. However, the government in which some of my colleagues were serving decided that the child of a poor person must not go to school or receive free medical services. From 1991, children who were 7 years old and should have been in school were denied education by the Government in which my colleagues on the left served because there was no free education for primary school going children. By 2001, ten years later, those children who were 7 years old in 1991 were 17 years old. These are the street kids whom you see on the roads. It is unfortunate that a political leader wanted to use the same kids he denied education to vote for him here in Lusaka and the Copperbelt.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Members: Ukokolepo apo pene!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, this Government has put in place good agricultural policies. For the first time, …

Mr V. Mwale: Naicho mubwezepo, mdala!

Mr Tetamashimba: … we produced more than 20 million bags of maize. Before that, when we were professionals in the private sector, there was hunger in this country. Only North-Western Province needs to have rain to feed the whole country, but the leaders who were there up to 2001 had no heart for agriculture.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, this Government is doing very well in terms of trying to save the animals. During that time, my brothers in Southern Province lost out because there was no caring government. This time, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has put K47 Billion in the Budget instead of the K7 billion which we were carrying from the people who were in Government in 2001.

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chimbaka: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister on the Floor in order to give this House history instead of debating what is contained in the Budget Speech?


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Before business was suspended, a ruling was made and guidance was given through that ruling that we have a Motion on the Floor of this House and that, as much as we can, with a bit of reference to the past, let us look at the Motion before us and debate it.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I heard my colleagues on your left state that this Government has just increased the minimum taxable wage by a few kwachas from K300,000 to K500,000. This is very surprising because the trade unions such as The Zambia Congress for Trade Unions (ZCTU) recommended K600,000. This Government has moved from K300,000 to K500,000. If the ZCTU itself had wanted K600,000 from K300,000 and we have increased it to K500,000 what else do you want?

Mr Kambwili: They have been compromised.


Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, we will be doing that every year because we know that the people who were in Government last time did not want to help the unions, but this Government is helping the unions.

Madam Speaker, the Government comprises both the people on your right and left. However, it is surprising that we are now told that if a Member of Parliament from the Opposition, especially the Patriotic Front, comes to my office to try and resolve the problems in his or her constituency, when their bosses see them, they will be fired. That is very unfair. Even councillors from the Opposition should not go to the Minister of Local Government and Housing to carry out their functions. If they do, they will be fired. Where are we going to?

Madam Speaker, this Government has brought investors into the country, but some of our colleagues here are saying they are going to nationalise the mines. What they want to do is to sell those mines or give them away on a silver plate to Taiwan. We are not going to nationalise them.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: This is because we do not think Taiwan can come and take advantage of the investment that the Chinese, KCM and others are making. We are not going to allow that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, what is surprising is that hon. Members on your left defend the mine when people talk about pollution, but when they come here, they want to support those saying we must nationalise. They must stand here and support the investors and we hope they are going to do that. This Government which is helping bring economic growth is not going to nationalise the mines. The Zambians will not allow Taiwan to get these mines and other investments just because a leader when he has an air ticket from the Indian Embassy to go somewhere can divert using that air ticket to go somewhere else. We are not going to allow that, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer Minister!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, ...

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: He has debated.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. When I was debating, I was advised by Mr Speaker not to mention specific foreign countries. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to keep referring to Taiwan in his debate?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Indeed, guidance was given on that matter. The hon. Member is concerned that the hon. Deputy Minister is referring to a foreign country by name.

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!


Madam Deputy Speaker: This House should desist from mentioning countries although in this case Taiwan is not being mentioned for any wrong doing.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: However, let me repeat that let us try not to bring missions into our debates as they are not part of us. Let us debate in general like we were guided and bring out principles and not discuss individuals or missions that are not here and may not have an opportunity to defend themselves.


Madam Deputy Speaker: The provinces will definitely be referred to.

Can you continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker, for that ruling. I will never refer to a country especially when it is on the bad side. Taiwan is a province and I can refer to it.


Mr Tetamashimba: It is immoral for any leader in Zambia …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Taiwan is not a province of Zambia.

May you continue.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, all I am saying is that our rules are clear as you state that we cannot mention countries, especially negatively, but countries that are doing good things for this country like China …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … we are supposed to talk about. This includes its province Taiwan.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Tetamashimba: We are supposed to talk about it because it is doing good things for this country.


Mr Tetamashimba: Every Zambian who aspires for leadership is not going to start dividing countries outside, no.


Mr Tetamashimba: So, Madam Speaker, it is very wrong when you are given the benefit to go and address a Government outside by an embassy. Of course, President Mwanawasa was invited, but he had no time to go there.


Mr Tetamashimba: It is wrong for a Member of Parliament or a political leader, if you are asked to go out to use that ticket to divert and go to other areas. That is not right.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I want to go further. The CDF that was spoken about …
Mr Chimbaka indicated to raise a point of order.

Mr Tetamashimba: You already raised a point of order. You cannot raise two points of order.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

You may not raise two points of order on the same person.


Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, before I was interrupted I wanted to conclude on education. Many of the children who are on the streets aged 17, 18 and 19 years should get it from me that the people who made them to be on the streets are those who were in Government from 1996 to 2001. This is because these are the people who refused to give free education to children. You know those who were in that Government because they are on your side.

Hon. Government: Dr Machungwa.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, I want to repeat what I said on CDF. The membership of CDF …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Tetamashimba: … should start with the hon. Member of Parliament. I was surprised to hear my colleague from Luanshya state that the Government is not monitoring people who are abusing or stealing CDF funds, especially, from the time he became Member of Parliament since these monies have been given. Unfortunately, since we were elected and CDF was sent, on your right, there is nobody whose constituency’s money has been given to anybody. This tells us, and I hope the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is listening, that the people near you have been misusing the money. We have heard somebody come out and say that money is being misused. So, we are appealing to you to make sure that you go and check how they are using the money. This is because most of us, even there, are not misusing the money. So, it is just on that bench behind where the money is being misused.


Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, when you talk of AIDS …

Hon. Government Members: We mean well.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Speaker, it is wrong for an hon. Member of Parliament to speak about AIDS while in the evening he drives around with women in his vehicle. That is not correct.


Mr Tetamashimba: When you come here, you must say that we should do away with AIDS by sticking to our wives. You should not start accusing people of doing this and that when you yourself are always gallivanting in your GX with women …


Mr Tetamashimba: ... other than your wife.

Mr Tetamashimba: I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Mr Kambwili: Ulicipuba, iwe.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, let me guide the House. We have a Motion. It can be very interesting to just go off the Motion and keep ourselves entertained in the House, but the people out there are expecting us to debate this Motion …

Mr Kambwili: Seriously.

Madam Deputy Speaker: … very seriously.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

I wish to urge all hon. Members that there are many forums where we can politick.

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Madam Deputy Speaker: For this moment, can we debate the Motion. Can hon. Members, both on my left and my right, debate the Motion.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! {mospagebreak}

Mr Mabenga: (Mulobezi): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to debate the Budget Speech presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

First and foremost, history has it that from the time this country got independence, for example, in the First Republic, a lot of emphasis was put on preparing national development plans. This, unfortunately, only involved immediate matters and never looked at long term matters that affected the people of this country.

Madam, it is proper for us to thank His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa and this very progressive party here, the MMD …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga (pointing at the hon. UPND Members): ... and our allies there.


Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Deputy Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member who is debating in order to refer to us on this side as allies when we have not signed an alliance pact?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member is wondering why the hon. Member debating should refer to his side of the House as allies. My serious ruling is that, indeed, you are allies …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Madam Deputy Speaker: … because you are all part of this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: May the hon. Member continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, thank you very much for your protection and guidance.

So, our allies this side also (pointing at the hon. PF Members), …


Mr Mabenga: … worked hand in hand with us to produce a very important document which is looking into the future of this country. This document is called Vision 2030. This document enumerates a lot of progressions that will be able to change and enrich the people’s lives in this country. This is because when President Mwanawasa took over leadership, he said, ‘I want to leave a legacy where people in this country will remember me for improving people’s lives.’

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: That is what he is doing now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: I am very sure that Hon. Kambwili is very happy to see this document.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, this did not end here. There was the preparation and production of the Fifth National Development Plan which again enumerates the many salient issues that are going to help enrich the status of the people of this country. Remember that the economy of this country has been bad for a long time.


Mr Mabenga: Look, I can tell you, I was a deputy minister, but because I talked about the development of the mining industry in Shang’ombo, I was fired.

Hon. PF Members: No!


Mr Mabenga: Yes, I was fired. If you did not know, I am telling you now.

Mr Shakafuswa: Which year?

Mr Mabenga: I was fired in 1999 as provincial minister.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The hon. Member debating should not debate himself.


Madam Deputy Speaker: When you do so, you risk having the rest of the hon. Members respond and you will probably receive verbal attacks. Avoid debating yourself.

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I am most obliged for your guidance.

Madam, I was referring to the fact that not everybody was actually fully involved in decision making at that time. There were a few people that were closer to the powers that be who made these decisions.


Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I am a person who never changes goal posts. I would have changed goal posts, but I do not do so easily. I have got principles.


Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Madam.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Will hon. Members stop debating through their seats. The Chair would like to listen carefully to the hon. Member debating.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, is the hon. Member in order not to heed your advice that he should not debate himself. I seek your serious ruling.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is concerned that the hon. Member on the Floor has continued to debate himself. This is simply a reminder to the hon. Member debating.

May the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam, I was referring to the fact that the documents that have been produced by this Government concern the future. Problems have beset the people and, as a result, possible proposals are being made to ensure that the lives of the people in this country change for the better.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the speech, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of finance and National Planning and, of course, all his staff, including his Deputy Minister, for presenting a well meaning Budget for the year 2007.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: I also want to congratulate the mover of the Motion of Supply, our able Member of Parliament for Mporokoso, Hon. Misapa, who spoke so eloquently.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: He brought out all the stresses and made it all very meaningful. That was wonderful. I also wish to congratulate the seconder, the hon. Member for Lukulu West, Ms Imbwae, who is my makwenyani who also did very well.

Dr Machungwa: Translate!

Mr Mabenga: Makwenyani means mother-in-law. She is my mother-in-law.

Madam Speaker, when I looked at the hon. Minister’s speech, I discovered that its theme is promoting the participation of the people unlike the participatory democracy we had a few years ago. The theme of this speech is, ‘From Stability to Improved Service Delivery’.

Madam Speaker, rather than being long and repetitive, this is a mini but consolidated speech with only twenty-eight pages. It has covered precisely what people who want to see the country move forward would have wanted it to cover, especially the people we have in this House from both the Government and the Opposition. I am not pointing a finger at anyone, but commending everybody because they are all listening very attentively. This is the spirit that should prevail in this House.

Madam Speaker, I deduced from the speech that democracy was promoted in the drawing up of the Budget for this year. I know that a lot of people were consulted. Therefore, a consultative process took place to produce the Budget before us. Traditional leaders, trade unions, politicians, church leaders and even my name sake, were consulted.

Hon. Members: Which one?

Mr Mabenga: He is not here to defend himself.


Mr Mabenga: Madam, consultation is cardinal in a democracy. Therefore, it is proper that we should give credit for this very positive move. If we do not, we will never be able to give credit to ourselves. By ‘ourselves’ I do not mean myself, the MMD, UDA or PF, but all of us as a nation. After all, this is a matter which talks about the living standards of the people. People will never say, as you walk, that there is MMD walking. They will say there is a Zambian walking. That is what they will say. Therefore, it is important that we realise this very important issue I am talking about.

Madam Speaker, there are a lot of areas that the hon. Minister touched. What is even more important is that this is, in fact, a domesticated budget. This is because what is being contributed by this country from our local resources is 72 per cent while the rest is only 28 per cent. This is pure domestication. It means that we are using our own resources in this country. Therefore, why not give credit to this Government? I think we should give it credit. What is important is not to look for mistakes and loopholes, but to look for things that are going to build our country. Our country cannot be built on nothing. It can only be built on economic values that are added to what the party in Government is doing at the moment. So it is important that everybody takes, comes and goes and we ensure that what we are saying and doing, we do together as one country.

Mr Matongo: What are you saying?

Mr Mabenga: What I am saying, if you are listening, is what I am saying.

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, if there are some people who want tuition in English, I am ready to provide it because I teach that language. They can come at a reduced fee.


Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, let me briefly refer to some figures that show that this economy has actually improved and is being supported by this Budget. If you look at page 18 of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s Budget Speech, you will see that the Ministry of Defence, under Budget by Function, has an allocation which has increased by 0.2 per cent, Economic Affairs 1.3 per cent, Agriculture and Fishing 3.1 per cent, Environmental Protection 3.6 per cent, Recreation, Culture and Religion 0.6 per cent and Social Protection 2.5 per cent.

Hon. UPND Members: What are you saying?

Mr Mabenga: I am illustrating the fact that the allocations to these various functions have increased.

Hon. UPND Members interjected.

Mr Mabenga: Bakayungizya! That is what you people there understand. We have to tell them in Tonga because they do not understand English.

Mr Mabenga: Bakayungizya, Madam, means they have added.


Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, finally, it is very important to understand that we are one nation and, therefore, should rise to the occasion. These petty attacks do not build us at all. Do not point at me because I did not point at you.

Dr Machungwa: Tell the one who is attacking you.

Mr Mabenga: Sorry!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, I am sorry. I thought I was chairing a meeting.

Mr Kambwili: That is what happens when you are not ready. Just sit down.


Mr Mabenga: Madam Speaker, in conclusion, it is important that we study this budget before we come to individual heads. We must study the whole of this Budget and understand it fully and be able to interpret it for the benefit of this country.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.



The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to


The House adjourned at 1910 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 15th February, 2007.