DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 21st February, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
 
____

QUESTIONS

MAIZE DISTRIBUTION

313. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Vice-President:

(a) How many bags of maize were distributed by the Disaster Management Unit as relief food in 2006, constituency by constituency; and

(b) how many bags of maize were destroyed in transit or were found rotten before being distributed to the various constituencies.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, in response to the question raised by the Hon. Mukanga, allow me to remind hon. Members of Parliament that the answers will be limited to Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit distribution district by district as outlined in the Disaster Management Policy of 2005.

The constituency by constituency distribution can be obtained by Members of Parliament from the respective district Disaster Management Committees which are chaired by respective district commissioners as custodians of this information. Hon. Members of Parliament are also members of the District Disaster Management Committees.

The House may wish to know that for the period 2006, the number of bags of maize that were distributed were 435,659 bags as indicated on the attached list of districts that I will lay on the Table of this House.

With regard to the second part of the question, the total numbers of bags that were destroyed in transit or found rotten before being distributed to the various constituencies were 450 by 50Kg bags. This represents 0.1 per cent of the tonnage of relief maize distributed.

This information is obtained from transporters (NGOs) engaged from the private sector who are only paid after verification of the work done. The transporters are contracted to haul calculated tonnages as established by the food needs assessment reports. The consignments of relief food are uplifted from primary warehouses to secondary warehouses for subsequent distribution to the targeted beneficiaries in the affected districts.

Non-Governmental Organisations whose operations are in the affected districts sign memoranda of understanding with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit. A working advance payment of 50 per cent is availed to the NGOs and the last payment of 50 per cent after successful completion of the food distribution and verification of the terminal reports and other relevant documentation.

The details from the transporters, NGOs and the District Disaster Management Committees provide checks and balances on the quality of relief food along the supply and distribution chain.

The Government, through Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit, recovers these losses by effecting deductions from payments due to either NGOs, transporters or warehouse managers depending on who is found responsible for damages/loss of the maize in question.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, arising from the answer given, I would like to find out when the Government is going replace those bags which were found to be rotten before distribution.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, the policy of the Government is that those bags that are found to be of poor quality or state are brought to the attention of the suppliers and measures are taken accordingly in order to recover the losses.

Dr Scott: (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, 2006 was a bumper harvest year, and yet, the hon. Minister, or Acting Vice-President, has told us that over 20,000 tonnes of emergency relief food was distributed. In light of this, does he have confidence in the needs assessment procedures that tell the centre what is needed at the edge?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, it is not the entire country that received adequate rainfall. There are certain areas which did not. However much we may have the rains, there are areas which will continue to receive poor rains and that will result in a shortage of food. As a Government, we have an obligation to look after those areas found in such an unfortunate situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why it takes too long a time for the Office of the Vice-President to react to the reports which emanate from District Disaster Management Committees on the hunger situation in all these respective places.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, in the absence of a specific example, it is difficult to tell, but I want to say that the policy of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit is to swing into action as soon as reports are received. This is what is being done even in the current situation where we have floods all over the country. We have men and women on the ground in order to ensure that those people who are badly affected are not affected in any way.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Njobvu (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, my question arises from what the Acting Vice-President has said. How much, in terms of recoveries, were made from the destruction of the consignments in various districts?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, quite significant.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Chilembo (Chama North): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how long it takes to make an assessment of any disaster situation. We seem to be getting more reports on assessment rather than the actual distribution of the relief food.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, as a Government, there is no lackadaisical approach to these important issues.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: As of now, Mr Speaker, let me take advantage of this opportunity to inform the House that the Government is right now in control of the situation where floods happened. Right now, areas like Nabwalya in Northern Province have been cut off and, as a Government, we have taken mealie-meal to Mfuwe Airport so that it can be air freighted into Nabwalya. We are also using Zambia Air Force planes to assist in this operation. So, the onus is on the district committees. if these reports get to us in time, we accordingly react accordingly, except that in the past few weeks we have had very misleading statements that have been emanating from some quarters that do actually find out what is happening on the ground. So, Mr Speaker, our assessments are correct.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Acting Leader of Government Business undertook or promised to lay the document on the Table.

Mr Mpombo: Most obliged, Sir.

Mr Mpombo laid the paper on the Table.

MAPOWA HEALTH CENTRE

314. Mr Mukanga asked the Minister of Health whether construction of Mapowa Health Centre in the Kantanshi Parliamentary Constituency was completed and, if so, when the centre became operational.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, the centre is completed with everything in place, including solar panels, medical equipment, office furniture and staff houses.

Sir, the Ministry of Health supplied the health centre with drugs and was opened on Wednesday, 23rd December, 2006.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why it took so long to make the centre operational after completion. It took two years. Will you elaborate?

The Minister of Health (Ms Cifire): Mr Speaker, we normally take into account the availability of the people to man the newly-constructed centres. The reason for having delayed in opening the centre was that we did not have the human resource in place. Time and again, we have talked about the human resource crisis in the Ministry of Health. It would not make a lot of sense for us to open and close the centre because we have no people to man it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, usually, it takes two to three years to complete a clinic. Is the hon. Minister saying that while the construction is going on, they do not look for personnel to man the institutions once they are through?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, the construction of these centres is normally done with indirect supervision by respective hon. Members of Parliament because most of these are done in their constituencies. That takes sometime. In a situation where we are talking about a human resource crisis, it is not until we have completion of the centre that we can take people there because we need most of these staff to work in other areas that are actually operational. At that particular point, we make rationalisation as to how we can make new staff available to get to a particular centre.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I heard the hon. Minister say that hon. Members of Parliament supervise construction. How can they do that when they are not trained?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, I realise that we may have gone to different schools. I said indirect supervision. This means that each respective hon. Member of Parliament should take ownership of what is going on in the constituency, taking into account that we cannot supervise when we are not civil engineers, which the hon. Member is.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, I would like to know why it takes so long for the Government to employ frontline medical personnel even after completion of the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative, which was supposed to have stalled the recruitment of health personnel.

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, we are only going to enjoy the fruits of HIPC now. I do not know which other HIPC the hon. Member may be referring to. That is how we have also got to moving the establishment of the Ministry of Health, that was at 23,000, to 51,000 which we are gradually going to move to with the start that we have made this year where we are going to recruit 1,900 employees into the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

ZAMBEZI RIVER AUTHORITY

315. Mr Ntundu (Gwembe) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) How much money was remitted by ZESCO Limited to the Zambezi River Authority annually;
(b) how the money was used; and
(c) of what benefit the Zambezi River Authority was to Zambia.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, the Zambezi River Authority (ZRA) manages the Zambezi River where it forms a common border between Zambia and Zimbabwe as well as managing the Kariba Dam and reservoir. It was formed in 1987, after the defunct Central African Power Corporation (CAPCO). CAPCO was formed during the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland to be a vehicle for electricity supply to the federation.
The Zambezi River Authority serves the two countries, among others, by supplying water from Lake Kariba to Kariba North Bank Power Station that belongs to Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) Limited and Kariba South Bank Power Station that belongs to Zimbabwe Electricity Supply Association (ZESA) Limited of Zimbabwe.
The Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation and Zimbabwe Electricity Supply Association’s payments to the Zambezi River Authority are in the form of water charges and, therefore, dependent on each country’s actual use of water for power generation. In the 2006 figures, ZESCO remitted K18.5 billion to Zambezi River Authority for water used for generation at Kariba North Bank Power Station.
Mr Speaker the money collected by Zambezi River Authority is used, among other things, to:
(i) Finance operations and maintenance activities required to maintain the Kariba Dam in good order and safe working conditions.

(ii) Monitor the water level and quality on Lake Kariba in order to maintain a safe and health environment.

(iii) Finance social programmes for societies living along the lake shores. This is achieved through the Zambezi Valley Development Fund administered by the Zambezi River Authority. Through this fund, communities access funds to finance social projects in the valley.
Sir, where the Zambezi River forms a common border between Zambia and Zimbabwe, it is not possible for either country to have a power station or other water facility that they wholly own.

It was for this reason that CAPCO and later Zambezi River Authority were created. The most significant benefit from Zambezi River Authority, therefore, is that it is a vehicle for the two countries to share the common resource. The Zambezi River Authority provides a common forum to own and operate the Kariba Complex, share this resource as well as amicably resolve any conflicts that may arise regarding this resource. The Zambezi River Authority, therefore, is of great benefit to Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the Zambezi River Authority cannot give part of their revenues to the Gwembe District Council where the Zambezi River lies.

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, the Zambezi River Authority has created a development fund for the benefit of the communities that border the Kariba Dam and this can be accessed by the people of Gwembe.

I thank you, Sir.

ST. PATRICK’S BASIC SCHOOL IN GWEMBE

316. Mr Ntundu asked the Minister of Education when the Government would upgrade St. Patrick’s Basic School in Gwembe District to a high school.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the Government has no intentions to continue upgrading basic schools to high school status due to lack of basic facilities that are required to facilitate the upgrading of such schools to high school status. As a result of this, the Government has no intention of upgrading St. Patrick’s Basic School into a high school. It will remain a basic school to service the community at that level. However, the Government appreciates the need for another high school in Gwembe District. A high school has been earmarked for construction in Gwembe District and the ministry is in the process of negotiating for land to construct a high school in Munyumbwe area during the Fifth National Development Plan period.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, no wonder Hon. Muntanga said this Government somersaults…

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ask your question, please.

Mr Ntundu: The question is that I would like to find out why the Government has changed its position to upgrade St. Patrick’s Basic School to a high school when it was stated by the former Minister of Education who is seated in this House, when he visited Gwembe, that St. Patrick’s Basic School would be converted into a high school.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I would like to respond to that question by saying that there are many reasons that would lead to a change of a decision if the ministry deems it necessary. At the moment, I would not give a direct response as to why there was that change, but we realise it would be wise, instead of upgrading, to construct a high school because St. Patrick’s Basic School, as at now, does not have those necessary facilities. As such, it was going to be a bit ambiguous for us to upgrade a basic school instead of simply constructing a high school.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, would it not be beneficial on the part of the Government and the people of Gwembe, in particular, to have two high schools in order to cater for the increasing number of school-going children, especially at primary school level?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the concern that the hon. Member has raised over Gwembe, but I want to state, here, that it is not only Gwembe that is in dire need of high schools. As such, we are broadly distributing these high schools. At the moment, my ministry plans, if this House will pass our budget, to build two high schools in each province. So, we cannot give one district two high schools when there is dire need for high schools throughout the country. We would like to distribute them broadly.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that the nearest high school from Munyumbwe Boma is more than forty kilometres away and that the children in that area have no access to high school facilities?

Hon. Members: Only?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, let me inform this House that when the Ministry of Education decides or deems it necessary to build a high school, we do not do it in isolation. We consult. We did the necessary consultations as to where the school should be built. This is the area that we were given to construct this particular high school by the stakeholders themselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

COPPER PRODUCTION

317. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) How many tonnes of copper were produced by the mines in the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces in each of the following years:

(i) 2002;
(ii) 2003;
(iii) 2004
(iv) 2005; and
(v) 2006;

(b) how much profit, in United States Dollars, was made by the mines in the years above;

(c) how much revenue, in United States Dollars, was realised by the Government in the form of taxes in the same years above, year by year; and

(d) by what percentage the Zambian economy benefited from the profits at (b) above.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that production of copper by mining companies in the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces from 2002 to 2006 is as follows:

Year  Copperbelt Province  North-Western Province

2002  335,023 metric tonnes   -
2003  372,222 metric tonnes   -
2004  418,986 metric tonnes   -
2005  382,122 metric tonnes   79,626 metric tonnes
2006  388,302 metric tonnes   127,316 metric tonnes

The decline in copper production in the Copperbelt Province from 2005 to 2006 was largely due to a number of set backs experienced during the year which included labour disputes, fuel shortages caused by the shut down of Indeni Oil Refinery during the month of October and mine accidents.

Sir, Kansanshi Mines Limited started production in 2005 while Equinox Copper Ventures Limited is still carrying out mine construction and development works at the Lumwana Mine Site.

As regards (b), mining companies made a total profit of US$652,296,093 broken down as follows:

Year  US$ in million

2002 Nil
2003     7,162,093
2004 168,144,000
2005 173,253,000
2006 303,737,000

Total  652,296,093

Mining companies did not make profits in 2002 due to factors such as:

(i) the mines had just been privatised and a lot of rehabilitation work was in progress;

(ii) low operating efficiencies; and

(iii) low copper prices

After many years of being depressed, the price of copper on the London Metal Exchange began to recover in 2003. This recovery was sustained through 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 and contributed to increased profits for the mining companies. The price of copper in 2002 was 68 cents per pound. It reached US $3 .99 per pound in 2006. As at January, 2007, the price of copper was US $2.50

(c) Government Revenue from Mines

Mr Speaker, in the period 2002 to 2006, mining companies remitted to the Government a total of US $71,490,000 broken down as follows:

  2002  2003  2004  2005  2006
Type of Tax
(in US $)
Company Tax  200,000  60,000  30,000  240,000  44,350,000

Withholding Tax
On Dividends  -  110,000  350,000  610,000  1,240,000

Mineral
Royalty Tax  580,000  1,740,000 920,000  7,060,000 14,000,000

Total   780,000  1,910,000 1,300,000 7,910,000 59,590,000

Mr Speaker, the low levels of Company Tax in the earlier years is attributed to carry over losses agreed upon in the Development Agreements between the Government and mining companies to enable mining companies recover the heavy start-up in mining costs. In 2006, most mining companies had started making positive declarations, hence higher tax figures.

I should mention that during the period 2002 to 2005, there was an increase in the recapitalisation of the mining sector in order to take advantage of the up turn in metal prices in the global market. The recapitalisation was tax deductable and therefore resulted in a significant reduction in Company Tax.

On part (d) of the question, Mr Speaker, the Zambian economy benefits from the profits made by the mining companies through taxes. 11 per cent of the profits made by the mining companies were remitted to the Government as tax revenue.

The House may wish to note that the contribution of the mining sector to the Gross Domestic Product was 8.3 per cent in 2005 and 11.6 per cent in 2006. However, the 2006 figure is preliminary and may be adjusted upwards or downwards. Much of this growth comes from the large-scale mines.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: Mr Speaker, from the hon. Minister’s responses and looking at the huge profits that these mining companies are hauling from this country as well as the percentage of the increase of the economy of the country, why does the Government not think of increasing the mineral royalties to at least 10 per cent since minerals are our only means of survival in this country?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, we are very much aware that we are not getting as much tax revenue from the mining industry as we should be getting. However, as you aware, the Mineral Royalty Tax has gone up from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent. From 0.6 to 3 per cent is quite a significant increase. On top of that, the Company Tax has gone up from 25 per cent to 30 per cent. We hope that we will get much more revenue when they start paying those rates and  when production also begins - we believe that in the next one year - in Mkushi, Petauke and Chongwe where we have some more copper deposits. When these mines begin operating, there will be much more profit and revenue to accrue to the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): I put it through you, Sir, that from the figures read by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, the lowest was 2002. The price then was 68 cents and the average price to date is anywhere between US $2.50 and US $ 3. The question really is that the 25 per cent tax is subject to negotiation. A minimum rate to rise by 2.4 per cent is subject to negotiation. Would I be far fetched, through you, to say can we not share the averaged prices of copper 2003 to 2006 between the owners of the mines, which is 3.08 per cent - and I challenge the hon. Minister to deny that - by giving the owners of the mines US $1.50 and the balance we share at merely 77.7 per cent? We did that before and it is being done elsewhere. We need the money.

Finally, Sir, we do not need K155 billion Budget Support …

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member is debating.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, it is not entirely accurate that the 3 per cent Mineral Royalty is negotiable. There are two levels of this tax. From the time that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning announced the Budget, there is no negotiation. From that date onwards, everybody will be at 3 per cent. However, for those that we have agreements with that are existing and legally binding, we have to sit down and negotiate so that they can come on board. However, since there are existing agreements, we cannot just impose on them. We have to sit down and agree with them. That is the second level.

The Corporation Tax at 30 per cent, again, is not negotiable. Every mining house, from the time that the Budget was announced, has to pay at that rate. I do agree with you Hon. Matongo that there is a very good argument for what we call windfall gain sharing.

In fact, when I debate, hopefully tomorrow, I will mention that. We have agreements with the three mining houses to share windfall gains. These are profits over and above the normal profits projected at the time when they began operations. This profit sharing is triggered by a certain figure. Once the sales and profits go to a certain figure, then we share what is called windfall gain. We are going to make a substantial amount of money from there. That is a figure I will mention in my debate, hopefully, tomorrow.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, copper is a wasting asset. Does the hon. Minister recognise that, as a wasting asset, the price of copper is not static? Does he think the price of copper will remain high when he talks about increasing the charges of royalties in the future?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, production fluctuates and so do the prices of copper. We began at the level of less than a dollar per Pound in 1998. The copper prices were about 43 cents. They rose to about US$ 3.5 per Pound and now it is about US$2.5.

So, the fluctuation is normal. We believe that it will average around US$2.53 per Pound and the reason is that there is increasing demand from the Far East economies - China and India - and that will propel the production levels to remain constant or increase. So, we do not expect the copper prices to, significantly, fall beyond US$2.5 per Pound.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated in his answer that production for copper in 2004 was 418,000 metric tonnes plus. I would like to find out what factors led to the increase in copper production on the Copperbelt.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the period before that was characterised by huge investment in the mining industry. A lot of machinery came into the country and a lot of rehabilitation work had just been completed at that time. So, the reason was that it was just the beginning of production after so much investment in the mining industry.

The second reason is simply that copper prices had picked up significantly by 2004. So, the facts are the increase in copper prices and the level of investment which had gone into the mining industry before 2004.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what measures the Government has put in place to avoid an exodus of these investors should the price of copper fall.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I do not think that they would leave. They have invested a lot of money in the mines. I have just said that we do not expect the prices to go below between US$2.5 and US$3 in the next few years because of the demand driven by the Eastern economies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, may I take advantage of the hon. Minister’s reference to negotiations of the development agreements and find out from him whether those negotiations he is talking about will be limited to the mineral royalties or whether they will be used by the Government to also negotiate other exemptions on liability due to the degradation of the environment.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, all I can say now, without pre-empting anything, is that there is a committee chaired by the Secretary to the Treasury that is working out the Heads of Negotiations. However, we are focusing much more on mineral royalties now, but there will be other heads that will be negotiated. I do not think it would be advisable to disclose what else we will be negotiating other than Mineral Tax at this point.

I thank you, Sir.

MUTANDA-MWINILUNGA ROAD

318. Mr Katuka asked the Minister of Works and Supply whether the Government had plans to resurface the Mutanda- Mwinilunga Road since the road had been completely eroded.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, my ministry has immediate plans to resurface the Mutanda-Mwinilunga road. In the 2007 Budget, my ministry has provided K6, 500,000,000 for the resurfacing of the road from Solwezi through Mutanda to Mwinilunga District.

In the meantime, my ministry has received bids from various contractors for the resurfacing of the project road. The Road Development Agency is currently evaluating the bids.

I thank you, Sir.

ZIMBAWEAN FARMERS

319. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) What the total number of Zimbabwean farmers who have settled in Zambia was; and

(b) what their pre-occupation in the country was.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker,

(a) There are sixty-nine farmers from Zimbabwe who have been registered in Zambia since 2003.

(a) The breakdown of their preoccupation is as follows:

(i) Thirty-two are into crop farming;

(ii) thirty are into mixed farming;

(iii) four are into agro-processing;
(iv) two are into horticulture production; and

(v) one is in poultry production.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government has given any of these farmers Zambian citizenship or whether they intend to offer citizenship to any of these farmers.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, as the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, we are not directly involved in giving citizenship to alien people and we do not have such information.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some of these farmers who have come from Zimbabwe are Selous Scouts and that some of them have brought with them a racial attitude and that the people, particularly those in Southern Province, might soon start fighting them on the basis of racism?

Mr Speaker: Order! No hon. Member of Parliament says things like that in and outside this House.

The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives will answer the first part of the question.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, when these farmers are being registered, we do not register their behaviour.

Laughter

Mr Mulonga: Sir, their behaviour can only be observed when they are already in the country. That might have been an observation by the people of Southern Province and the hon. Member of Parliament for that area who has never reported that matter. I would request him that if such things are happening, he should report to the relevant authorities.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures they have put in place for these farmers from Zimbabwe, and in particular, those who are growing tobacco, to avoid deforestation. What measures has the Government put in place to make sure that they do not finish trees in Southern Province to prevent the area from being a desert?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, the processing of tobacco using such methods is not right. If they are involved in deforestation without a permit, then they have to be reported to the relevant ministry to deal with them.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, I presume the hon. Minister is talking about white commercial farmers and not about the thousands of Zimbabweans who we know here as Mazezulu who have settled and taken Zambian citizenship. Is he aware that there is a net outflow of these new Zimbabwean white commercial farmers and if they have an idea how great it is?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, I think I was not following the question by the hon. Member of Parliament.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Are you aware that despite the figures you mentioned, there is a net outflow in that these farmers are going out of Zambia in greater numbers than you think?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, no, we are not aware.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how much employment has been created by these sixty-four farmers.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, currently, the ministry was pre-occupied with production. As for the labour issues, I think the labour movement…

Laughter

Mr Mulonga: … and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security can come in. As for how much employment has been created, I think that can be answered by the Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter{mospagebreak}

PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES

320. Mr Sejani asked the Vice-President whether the Government had any plans to increase the number of parliamentary constituencies in the country and, if so, when.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that in accordance with Article 63 of the Constitution of Zambia, the question of increasing the number of constituencies in the country is a constitutional matter which only Parliament can decide upon.

Mr Speaker, it is, therefore, not for the Electoral Commission to do so. The commission would undertake its mandate of reviewing boundaries of existing constituencies as provided for under Article 76 (1) after Parliament has decided to increase the number of constituencies in the country. The matter should, therefore, be conclusively dealt with in the on-going Constitution review.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, I think it was two years ago that some delimitation teams were sent out. What did the Government have in mind in sending these teams and what has happened to the work that they did?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, the current Constitution says that there shall be 150 hon. Members of Parliament in the National Assembly of Zambia and, thereafter, that can only change as a comprehensive review of the Constitution. As regards delimitation teams in the past few years, we have had delimitation committees on local councils. I think the hon. Member of Parliament is mixing up the two.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, is the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House aware that the current Constitution provides that every ten years, the Electoral Commission of Zambia, in conjunction with the Government, has the liberty to increase the number of constituencies?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, I think that is also confused with delimitation exercises.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, has the Acting Vice-President forgotten that the Electoral Commission of Zambia went from district to district and constituency to constituency, delimitating would-be boundaries for constituencies?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, when the Constitution Review Commission went round to gather information, some hon. Members even petitioned the commission to give their feelings on how many hon. Members of Parliament should be in the House. Therefore, as a Government, we are saying that this is a constitutional matter and since we have a constitution making process, this matter will be adequately addressed.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Acting Vice-President what factors are taken into consideration when demarcating a parliamentary constituency in view of the fact that, in size, Kitwe to Luanshya is two to one and yet there are five parliamentary constituencies in Kitwe and only two in Luanshya.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, although these are clearly described in the Constitution, one of the critical areas is population density.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, I have a follow up question for my friend and Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. He said delimitation of constituencies has been confused. Who is confusing this because it is an Act of this House to deliberate how many constituencies this country should have every ten years? Other than the limitation of resources, I want a direct answer from you.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, before I came to this House, I had consultations with the Electrical Commission of Zambia.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Sir, I mean Electoral Commission of Zambia. Their role is confined. The Government will ask them to move in and delimit the constituencies. As of now, no request has been given to them by the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

PROFIT MADE BY PRIVATISED MINES

321. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) How much profit was made by all privatised mines on the Copperbelt during the 2005/2006 financial year, mine by mine; and

(b) how much of this profit was ploughed back into the community, mine by mine.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that during 2005/06 Financial Year, privatised mines made profits and or losses as follows:
 
(i) Konkola Copper Mines Plc made a profit of U S $113,937,000;

(ii) Mopani Copper Mines Plc made a profit of U S $28,007,000;

(iii) Luanshya Copper Mines Plc made a loss of U S $1,098,000. The mine started its production in June 2004 and was still under rehabilitation until 2005;

(iv) Chibuluma Copper Mines Plc made a profit of U S $12,900,000;

(v) Chambishi Metals Plc made a marginal profit of U S $385,000 due to the following reasons:

(a) cobalt prices in 2005 fell by 35 per cent to U S $14 /lb;

(b) Chambishi Metals is a high cost producer of cobalt as opposed to its competitors worldwide who produce cobalt as a by-product. At this operation, cobalt is a primary product.

(vi) NFC African Mining Plc made a marginal profit of U S $39,494 because of the financial obligation arising from the accident which occurred at the BGRIMM Explosives Factory in April 2005 where the mining company had majority interest.

Mr Speaker, it is Government policy to ensure that mining companies contribute towards the development of communities in which they operate. Therefore, these contributions towards community development do not depend on profits made but are treated as part o the mine operating cost. In this regard, the mining companies contributed towards local communities as follows:

(a) Konkola Copper Mines Plc spent a total of U S $4,342,00 to support the HIV/AIDS programme, provided assistance to two Trust Schools in Chingola and Chililabombwe. In addition, it also provided assistance to two hospitals in the same towns and sponsored the premier League soccer of the Football Association of Zambia;

(b) Mopani Copper Mines Plc spent a total of US $2,300,0000 on a number of activities which included a farm for ex-workers, roll back malaria programme and grants to sports clubs such as Mufulira Wanderers Football Club and Nkana Football Club;

(c) Luanshya Copper Mine Plc for Mr Kambwili spent a total of U S $361,000 on township road repairs and Luanshya Mine Swimming pools and sponsored Roan United Football Club;

(d) Chibuluma Mine Plc spent a total of US $1,410,000 on access roads in the townships, Kitwe-Kalulushi Road repairs, the Mine Hospital, Roll back Malaria Programme and assistance to Kalulushi Municipal Council in the form of road rehabilitation materials;

(e) Chambeshi Metals Plc spent a total of US $966,000 on the HIV/AIDS Counseling Programme and provide free ARVs to infected employees and their families, donated chairs, desks and sports kit to St Nicholas Community School and sponsored Chambishi Blackburn Football Club; and

(f) NFC African Mining Plc spent a total of US $22,006 on the HIV/AIDs Programme, Maternal Child Health and sponsored Chambishi Badminton Finals.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that Mopani Copper Mines Plc ploughed back about U S $2.3 million and also sponsors Mufulira Wanderers and Nkana football clubs, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if he is aware that Mopani Copper Mines Plc gives only U S $4,000 to Mufulira Wanderers and Nkana respectively.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the information that we have provided is accurate, verified and to the point. This is very similar to the question that Hon. Mukanga asked on 25th January 2007 as Question No. 96 We provided these answers very clearly and have come back in a similar way, but we have tried to give you the best answers we can give.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, while Nchanga Copper Mines spent a considerable amount of money on the provision of ARVs, is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development aware that Mopani is in a cost sharing system where an employee pays 40 per cent and the company pays 60 per cent?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, that information is very vital. We will follow it up and investigate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, there is definite confirmation that the mines are making profits. On page 4 of the Budget Speech – Mining and Quarrying - it further goes to confirm that profitability. On page 5 of the same speech, there is an inflow ….

Mr Speaker: Order!

There is a motion on that subject. May the hon. Member ask his question.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, the question is that with all this information available - and if it is parliamentary to say there cannot be any Mickey mousing about figures - why can we not get that money to develop the Copperbelt and the country as a whole?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we have pointed out that there is a very active programme of interaction between our ministry and mining houses to report back on the activities in the communities regarding ploughing back profits. Every quarter of the year, they have been filing reports to us to verify what they are doing and we guide them in terms of what they are doing for the communities.

As regards profits, we have just answered the question about how much we are getting from the mining houses. We are agreed that it is not enough, but the measures that my hon. Colleague has taken in the Budget Address will give us some more comfort in terms of revenue collection.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, what is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development doing regarding the confirmation of the profits that are being realised by the private mines? Is the hon. Minister aware that if these mines, or just a percentage of them, were in the hands of the indigenous Zambians, there would be more profits made because that money would be ploughed back in this country and not outside?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, these mines were bought by private owners. There is nothing in the sale process that prevents Zambians from participating. We have made this point clear several times in this House. As Zambians, you are free to come up and apply for mining licences and begin mining. Why should you continue to be employees of these big companies? It is up to you to take the lead and we are ready for you. Come and make an inquiry and we will let you know where these concessions can be obtained and you can start mining.

I thank you, Sir

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, many years ago there used to be a special unit in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to monitor the returns from the mining companies, Anglo-American and Roan Selection Trust (RST) and to stop them from hiding profits, something for which mining companies are famous. Do we have such units in place, perhaps, and if not, why not?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we have a unit called the Post-privatisation Team that goes round make sure that the mining houses fulfil the undertaking they made when they bought the mines. Other than that, we also work through the Chamber of Mines to get the figures of production so that they do not mislead us. We also work with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to ensure that the figures are accurate and to the point.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Njobvu: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister has mentioned privatisation, I would like to know whether there is a privatisation fund and whether Zambians are being supported through that fund.

Mr Speaker: That is slightly away from the thrust of this question.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what the hon. Minister meant when he said Luanshya Copper Mines Plc had spent money on township rehabilitation. As far as I am concerned, neither the council nor Luanshya Copper Mines Plc have done any rehabilitation. To my knowledge, the mine has only spent K136 million …

Mr Speaker: Order!

You are debating. Let him answer.

Mr Kambwili: Alright, thank you, Sir.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the impression we have is that some rehabilitation works have been going on in Luanshya, but let me invite the hon. Member to follow this one up and then report to us so that we can work together.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, offering shoes to a person with no feet is mockery to such a person. Is the hon. Minister aware of the fact that this constant reiteration that Zambians are constantly encouraged to participate, with no deliberate incentives offered to them in terms of cheap capital, is mockery?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I appreciate that concern. Mining is very expensive but my hon. Colleague has done a wonderful job in bringing inflation down to 8 per cent. Interest rates are falling and so, there will be so much money to borrow from. You can borrow and invest.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, arising from the sets of answers from the hon. Minister and the hon. Deputy Minister with regard to mining generally, does he consider the compensation of one or two steers as enough in order to give way to the mining of nickel in Mazabuka area? Does he consider that as sufficient compensation as against the billions of dollars that company is going to make?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, that is interesting. I do not think two steers would adequately compensate for the displacement of individuals. Can you get this information so that we can follow it up? It is serious and I am inviting the hon. Member to liaise with us.

I thank you, Sir.

ARV TREATMENT IN ZAMBIA

322. Mr Sejani asked the Minister of Health:

(a) How many people were currently on ARV treatment in Zambia, province by province; and

(b) how these figures compared with other countries in the SADC region.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, currently, there are over 76,000 people on ARV treatment in Zambia. The breakdown per province is as follows:
 
Province  Per cent (%)

Central 3,800   5.0
Copperbelt 13,680 17.8
Eastern 6,080   7.8
Luapula 1,520   7.9
Lusaka 35,720 46.5
Northern 2,280   3.0
North-Western 1,520   2.0
Southern 8,360 10.9
Western 3,800   5.0 
Total       76,760            100.0

Sir, Zambia has one of the fastest growing Anti-Retroviral Therapies (ART) in the world. Currently, Zambia is ranked fourth in the region, in terms of percentage coverage. We currently have 27 per cent of people living with HIV on treatment. Though we are ranked fourth, it is important to note that all the three countries above us have a higher per capita income.

Further, they have fewer people living with HIV. We initially, started with a cost-sharing mechanism where patients paid K40,000 towards treatment. In mid 2005, Government made ARVs free to the end-users. Unlike most countries, Zambia has a policy on HIV and ART. Further, the Zambian Government has declared HIV/AIDS a national disaster.

Mr Speaker, allow me to conclude that in comparison to the region, Zambia is doing well on the provision of ART.

Country Number of Number of Percent % Per Capita Gross
 People living people living of people National Income,
 With HIV with HIV living with (ppp, Intl dollar
  currently on HIV currently rate)
  ARVs on ARVs

Botswana 270,000 23,000 85 8,920
Namibia 230,000 80,500 35 6,960
Swaziland 220,000 68,200 31 4,970
Zambia 1,100,000 76,000 27    890
South Africa 5,500,000 1,155,000 21 10,960
Malawi 940,000 188,000 20    620
Kenya 13,000,000 256,100 19.7 1,050
Lesotho 270,000 37,800 14 3,210
Mozambique 1,800,000 5,292 9 1,160
Zimbabwe 1,700,000 136,000 8 2,180
Tanzania 1,400,000 98,000 7    660
Angola 320,000 19,200 6 2,030

2006 Report on the Global Aids Epidemic

So you can see that in terms of absolute numbers, we are doing better but in percentage terms, like in Botswana, it is at 35 per cent but there only 23,000 people living with HIV.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, what are these figures that have been read region by region reflective of? Are they reflective of the rate of infliction in those regions or they are reflective of the rate of levels of the awareness of the resistance of ARVs as treatment or they are reflective of the distance from the corridors of power, in this case, Lusaka?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, it would be easier for us to answer the question in two parts. Is it on the Zambian situation alone, province by province, or the regional comparison?

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Ms Cifire: Is it the Zambian situation?

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Ms Cifire: Alright. What we have indicated is the prevalence rate which is easier to capture when you look at the density by population. When you look at the line of rail, there are more people that have come through. When you look at how the HIV pandemic came into being, the progression has been that where there are more people, it was more prevalent, especially within towns. Now the disease is getting into the rural areas which is a recent phenomenon. So, the difference, mostly, has to do with more people and where social factors have actually assisted in relation to how people have got the HIV disease.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to enlighten us on how much of this achievement in terms of the provision of the service of ARVS drugs is governmental and funded by us, the tax payers of Zambia, and how much of it is funded by NGOs and project aid and funded by tax payers from other countries.

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, although it is a new question, essentially we would say that all of it is Zambian Government solicited. What I mean is that even though the money gets to the NGOs, the donors do it to assist the Zambian Government. We have several partners on board in dealing with the cure of HIV/AIDS. What it is is that if we cannot deal with everybody using Government institutions, then the NGOs that are able to get to areas where Government institutions do not exist do help us. Like we said last week when we discussed this issue, all NGOs that deal with the issue of ARVs fall under the Ministry of Health.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe): Mr Speaker, ARVs are some of the commodities classified as very essential and not non-essential. Can the hon. Minister confirm to this august House that at no time is this drug going to experience an artificial shortage on the market.

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, our endeavour, as a Government, is that we are going to make ARVs available. We are aware of the complications that arise when ARVs are not made available to people who need them and, therefore, we cannot take a risk to have this happen in the country.

I thank you, .

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, what advice is the Minister going to give to Zambians who may be misled or misinformed by one of the dailies which is reporting the finding of a cure for AIDs and specified the number of weeks that drug is to be taken? What is your advice to Zambians?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, it would be nice for the hon. Member to give us the name of the paper being referred to. However, at the moment, we have not made a position, as a Government, on what the hon. Member is referring to. If he gives us the name of the daily, we will look at it and wait for official confirmation from all the relevant bodies because, right now, the world is crying out for a cure of HIV.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that by now ARVs are being manufactured in Lusaka, Zambia?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, unless the hon. Member is giving us new information, we do not have that information at the moment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bonshe (Mufumbwe): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that in rural areas there are very few VCT centres? Some of them are just restricted to the administrative centres which are the Bomas and, as such, how does the ministry expect to capture people in places where there are no VCT centres?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, we are very much aware that we may not have enough VCT centres at the moment but what we have done is to make sure that in all the seventy-two districts, there is some centre that is able to provide the service. Through this, Sir, with the budget having come through, what we want to do is to make sure that we have more centres opened and we are also going to have mobile VCT vehicles that will go round to try and capture as many people as possible that may need the service.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

_______________

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

THE PROHIBITION OF THE DEVELOPMENT, PRODUCTION, STOCKPILING AND USE OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS BILL, 2007

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Sikatana): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2 (a) on page 7, by the insertion immediately after line 32 of the following new definition:

‘Director’ means the person appointed as Director of the Authority under section seven;

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Sikatana): I beg to move an amendment in clause 2 as follows:

(a)  on page 7
 by the insertion immediately after line 32 of the following new definition:

“Director” means the person appointed as Director of the Authority under section seven;

(b)  on page 9
(i) in line 8
by the insertion of the words “with no lasting, long term effects and” after the words “disabling physical effects”; and 
(
(ii) on page 21
by the insertion of a comma and the words “with no lasting, long term effects and” after the words “disabling physical effects”; and

(iii)  in line 35 and 36
by the deletion of the words “humans or animals” and the substitution therefore of the words “plants, animals, humans or the environment”.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Amendment of Application)

Mr Sikatana: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment in clause 3, on page 10, in line 5 by the deletion of the words “Zambian – registered” and the substitution therefor of the words “Zambian or foreign registered,”

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12,13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, and 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 43 – (Collaboration with state authorities)

Mr Sikatana: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 43, on page 33, after line 3 by the deletion of the word “home” and the substitution therefor of the words “for foreign.”

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 43, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE 44 – (Regulations)

Mr Sikatana: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Part xi, on page 33, after line 2 by the insertion of the following new clause:

 Monitoring   44. (1) The Minister shall, by statutory instrument,
And testing centre establish a monitoring and testing centre for chemical weapons and their precursors and define its functions.

(3) The statutory instrument referred to in
Subsection (1) shall provide for the administration and operation of the monitoring and testing centre.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Sikatana: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 44, in line 3 by the renumbering of Clause 44 as Clause 45.
Amendment agreed to. Clause further amended accordingly.

Clause 44, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Schedule agreed to.

Schedule ordered to stand part of the Bill

Title agreed to.

THE NATIONAL PAYMENT SYSTEMS BILL, 2007

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Interpretation)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 8, as follows:

(i) after line 11

by the insertion of the definition of “payment system business” of the following new definition:

“person” includes a company, a partnership, an association and a group of persons acting in concert, whether or not incorporated; and

(ii) in line 20

by the deletion of the word “facilities” and the substitution therefor of the word “facilitates.”

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 7, in line 18, by the deletion of the word ‘instruction’ immediately before the word ‘means’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3, 4, 5 and 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7 – (Application for designation of payment system)

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I have two amendments to move at Clause 7 and I wish to present them one at a time.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 7, on page 10, in lines 28 and 29, by the deletion of the words ‘one hundred and eighty’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘ninety’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on page 11, in line 11 and also on page 13, in line 15. I propose the amendments, but I take notice that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has also presented an amendment No. 5 in Clause 36 to 43 on page 19 to 21 where he is proposing renumbering of clauses. Since I support that amendment by the hon. Minister, my amendment, therefore, becomes futile. I would like to withdraw that.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 7, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 12 – (Designation of payment system business)

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 12, on page 13, in line 14, by the deletion of the words ‘business payment system’ and the substitution therefor of the words ‘payments system business’.

Clauses, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 18 – (Collateral)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 18, on page 15, in line 22, by the deletion of the word ‘participate’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘participant’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 18, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 19, 20, 21,22,23,24,25,26,27,29,29,30,31 and 32 ordered to stand part of the Bill

CLAUSE 33 – (Dishonoured Cheques)

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 33, on page 18, in line 28, by the deletion of the word “negligently”.

Mr Lubinda: I have an amendment in Clause 33, on page 18, after line 34. In view of the positive amendment proposed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I am obliged to further amend my amendment so that it is in think with his amendment and for that purpose and for the sake of record, my amendment at my proposed new Clause 2, with exception of the following words to the relevant law enforcement agencies and those words and the word “negligently” ought to be deleted and I propose the remaining as an amendment to Clause 33, or with intent to defraud.

(3) “A participant in the payment system shall compile lists of dishonoured cheques with their details and forward them to the Bank of Zambia every quarter”

Amendment agreed to. Clause 33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill

CLAUSE 34- (Investigation)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Lubinda should have made amendments on line 43 and also on Section 5. He only made amendment on lines 2 and 3. That is where he made his amendment to leave out relevant law enforcement. Therefore, we object to the amendment on page 18, after line 43 because this says “Notwithstanding any other law, the provision shall apply to any office of the Republic in any individual capacity”.

Public officers do not operate in individual capacities and they cannot be punished in that form. We agreed with Hon. Lubinda that he would drop this amendment, but I am surprised that he wants to say that it is still on. Therefore, we strongly object to it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, indeed, we did consult on several amendments, including the one that the hon. Minister has referred to. Our agreement was that in view of the fact that the Government has been a major culprit in issuing dishonoured cheques, thereby eroding the confidence of the payment system, we agreed that the hon. Minister would make a firm undertaking on the Floor of this House that he will put in stringent measures to ensure that Government officers authorised to issue cheques do not issue cheques against accounts that have lack of funds to meet the requirements of those cheques. If you make that firm commitment, which shall be recorded in the Hansard, then, I am willing to withdraw the amendment.

I thank you, Madam

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, that was, in fact, the content of our discussion, that the Government is too big. If, for example, somebody is issuing cheques in Kazungula to farmers who have lost their cattle in the hope that tomorrow, somebody from Lusaka will deliver the money, and that farmers go to the bank tomorrow early in the morning and the cheque bounces, it will not be proper to punish that officer in their personal capacity.

We are a very big organisation and we cannot take individuals who are scattered all over the country to be punished in their individual capacities. That was basically what I agreed with Hon. Lubinda.

I thank you, Madam

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, the Bill that he is referring to says, “Any person who wilfully, dishonestly and also add the word “negligently”, which the hon. Minister has amended - “wilfully, dishonestly, or with intent to defraud”. The circumstance that the hon. Minister was explaining is not wilful, and it is not out of dishonesty. Therefore, that would not be criminalised. I do not see any reason why we should quarrel. What I would like is that the hon. Minister makes an undertaking that as hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, he will issue instructions to all paying officers that they must abide by this law so that we build the confidence in the payment system. It is as easy as that.

Why is it difficult for him to make a firm commitment that he shall issue those instructions, or is he trying to imply that he would like to maintain the very situation where cheques are still bouncing knowing very well that the Government does not have money in those accounts?

I do not see any quarrel, hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande interjected.

Mr Lubinda: Yes. If you make that commitment, I am willing to withdraw. Why do you not want to make such a simple commitment? That is what I am pleading for. It is just a simple commitment by the hon. Minister that he shall do what is required to ensure that we respect the National Payment System. Without his commitment, the National Payment System becomes weakened.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, it is my Government and I who have brought this Bill before the House because we want to make a very good payments system. I will make sure that we issue instructions that in spite of the public servants not being covered by the law under our Public Finance Act, we will not spare those who will be issuing cheques that are bouncing because we do not believe in borrowed money which we do not have.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, with that commitment that I was waiting for, I happily to withdraw this amendment.

I thank you, Madam.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 33, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 34 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE - 35 (General offence, penalties and offences by Body)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 35 on page 19, in lines 15 to 24 by the deletion of Clause 35.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification from the hon. Minister on his amendment. His amendment has the effect of deleting Clause 35. Those who have had the time to go through this Bill will know that Clause 35 is a very important Clause in this Bill. This Clause says any person who breaches any provision of this Act for which no specific offence has been created, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable, on conviction, to a fine not exceeding 100,000 penalty units or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or both.

Now, that is the one that provides the penalty for breaching this law. Now, he is taking away the penalty for the offence. What, then, will remain of the Bill? How shall the Bill be enforced? Could the hon. Minister explain what he intends to do with this Bill after he has taken away that very important Clause?

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, it would seem it is in the title where there was a misunderstanding of ‘body’ and that is why we wanted to remove body so that we just leave it as offences. I think, normally, we do provide that if there is no specific law we use some general law. So, I wish to withdraw my amendment to delete Clause 35.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for withdrawing that amendment. As a result of his withdrawal of the amendment, I already circulated, Madam Chairperson, an amendment to that particular Clause and that is the amendment that the hon. Minister was aiming at.

In Clause 35, on page 19 in the marginal note, I had intended, Madam Chairperson, to include ‘corporate’ after the word ‘body’. After having discussed this with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Justice, and after having listened to the hon. Ministers debate, I wish to propose that instead of adding the word ‘corporate’ after ‘body’ we delete the last two words ‘by body’. So, that in the marginal note the heading shall read ‘General offence, penalty and offences’.

I thank you, Madam.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Madam Chairperson, on the same, I do not know, maybe, I did not understand. It seems that there is a contradiction here. Reading Clause 35, Part 1, any person who breaches any provision of this Act for which no specific offence has been created shall be guilty of an offence. Madam Chairperson, if there is no specific offence that has been created, why should a person be punished? I am not clear on that part.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): I think the hon. Member should come to my office for clarification.

I thank you, Madam.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 35, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE – 36 (Validity of certain acts by participants)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, as a consequence of my amendment to restate Clause 35, my amendment under Clause 36 was to renumber because there was going to be one number missing. So, I drop the amendment.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, it might be recalled that I intended to move an amendment in Clause 7, which I withdrew on the basis of the amendment that the hon. Minister was supposed to move which he has now withdrawn. As a result of that, I am afraid that if we do not amend as I proposed at Clause 7, then the references will be wrong. Therefore, I would wish, with your permission and the permission of the House, to restate my amendment in Clause 7 so that it is consistent with the numbering, which has not, now, been changed and for Clause 36. That is my proposal and I am sure that the hon. Minister has no objection to that because that is really just a matter of cleaning up the Bill.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, we are now getting involved in renumbering and so on and it is likely one number could be missing. Therefore, I do accept what Hon. Lubinda is saying. We are not talking of the substance.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 36, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 37, 38, 39 and 40 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 41 – (Appeals and appeals Tribunal)

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 41, Page 20, in line 18 by deleting of the word “thirty-nine” and the substitution therefor of the word “forty.”

Amendment agreed to. Clause further amended accordingly.

Clause 41, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 42 ordered to stand part of the Bill

CLAUSE 43 – (Rules guidelines or directives by Bank of Zambia)

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 43, on Page 21, in line 32 by the insertion of the word “of” between the words “administration” and “this.”

Amendment agreed to. Clause further amended accordingly.

Clause 43, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.
______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:
The Prohibition of the Development, Production, Stockpiling and use of Chemical Weapons (Amendment) Bill, 2007.

Third Reading tomorrow.

The National Payment Systems (Amendment) Bill, 2007.

Third Reading on Tuesday, 27th February, 2007.

_____
MOTION

BUDGET 2007

(Debate Resumed)

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, when the House adjourned last night, I was at the point of imploring the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to found a new financial religion and a new system of obsession in his ministry for the proper adherence to maintenance schedules and releases money for maintenance. I pointed out that the many beautiful pictures on the front and back of this Budget Address…

Dr Scott raised the Budget Address.

Dr Scott:… pictures of medical facilities, roads and schools and all these facilities were likely to cease to be operational because of our tradition, in this country, of not maintaining what we have.

Mr Speaker, I just want to come briefly to the subject of enclave economics. This country had a mining industry in the old days that was accurately described, at that time, as an enclave, as something not really part of Zambia, which was paying some tribute to Zambia, providing some employment for Zambia and some services for Zambia, but in many ways, was not part of Zambia. The holder of the mineral royalties was the British South African Company which was domiciled in Johannesburg. The two large companies which were operating or running the mines were Anglo-American Corporation, domiciled in Johannesburg with the headquarters in Salisbury, Rhodesia, and the Roan Selection Trust, a subsidiary of American Metal Climax.

Sir, the revenues from our mines built up Rhodesia. Ian Smith was able to declare the Unilateral Declaration of Independence (UDI) because of Zambian copper revenue that was diverted during federation, before federation and even for a short while after federation. He was able to send his Selous Scouts that the hon. Member was referring to, with guns bought from our copper and so forth.

Sir, what we fear here and what I personally fear is that we are unwittingly coming back to enclave economics. We are creating more enclaves over which we do not really have sovereignty – over which others have a lion’s share of sovereignty in our own country.

Sir, earlier today, it was reported that KCM made profits of US $130 million in the last financial year. The owner of Vedanta, which is the owner of KCM, Mr Annil Aggarwal, has pledged US $1 billion to the creation of a world class university – outstripping even Harvard and my own university, Cambridge - in his home state in India.

Mr Kambwili: Not in Zambia!

Dr Scott: Not in Zambia. In Zambia we are doing a bit of VCT with a bit of the profits that are being made here.

Mr Speaker, there may be a case to say that we were desperate at the time. Things were difficult, the price was low and the privatisation had been held up. It was a last minute thing. Yes, that is true, but we are continuing. Why are we making special deals, up to as recently as less than a month ago, for special tax concessions which are actually and virtually eternal tax concessions because you do not have to declare your dividend in order to move profit around?

Sir, why we are creating more enclaves when we have seen their dangers? We have seen the dangers of not having autonomy. The Patriotic Front (PF) policy is that we are perfectly happy to let any foreign investor – let there be no mistake about that –into this country, but on the same terms as every other foreign investor, not on special terms that have been negotiated at a diplomatic level to apply on a day-to-day economic level or financial level.

Therefore, we are against these special zones or special creations even as they are also against the Empowerment Act which introduces an element of patronage and potential corruption into these zones. So, our policy is to let everybody compete on the same playing field. We are not interested in whatever internal politics is going on across the other side of the world whether this is piece of China or that is a piece of China. That is not our problem. We want people and they are very welcome to come here with reduced levels of taxation which PF brings in for everybody, including Zambians, most especially.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sinyinda (Senanga): Mr Speaker, may I start by thanking hon. Magande for not only presenting a wonderful 2007, but for also managing the Zambian economy so efficiently and effectively and I therefore, express my total support for it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, it is a well-known fact that the Zambian economy has grown from a big weakness five years ago to its present strength today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, it pleases my heart to see that the New Deal Government is putting emphasis on factors that will make the economy grow even faster. The budget is stressing growth though agriculture, fishing, transport, tourism, energy, mining and communication.

Mr Speaker, I, therefore, appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that my province, district and constituency are not left behind in these economic achievement Zambia is scoring.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, in the field of agriculture, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to deliver seed and fertiliser in good time to Western province as the area has a unique planting season. The planting season on the Barotse Flood Plain starts in August/September.

Sir, there is also the issue of cashew nuts. The two plantations that are in Mongu and Senanga are now white elephants. I, therefore, ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to entice some investors so that they can invest in this province which has got potential for foreign exchange.

Mr Speaker, I am also appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to set up a special animal disease control fund in Western prince because the economy of Western Province is very dependent on the cattle industry. I, therefore, ask the hon. Minister to see to it that this fund is established in order to eradicate the disease as quickly as possible.

Mr Speaker, Western Province has great potential in fish farming. I am therefore, requesting that a big chunk of the budget must be allocated to Western Province for the promotion of fish farming.

Sir, many of our camp extension offices in the province have no officers to run them. I am therefore, appealing to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to ensure we also benefit from the people that are going to be employed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda: In the transport sector, Mr Speaker, it is my hope that money will be allocated …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order and I do not want to disturb my cousin who was once a headmaster. Is he in order to continuously read and yet he made his maiden speech after the Presidential Address? He is now reading another maiden speech. Do you allow this? Is he in order to think that there are two maiden speeches in this Parliament? Sir, may you give us a ruling to help him.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Senanga may continue referring to his copious notes.

Laughter

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, thank you very much.

I am appealing to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to ensure that a good chunk of money is released so that the schools in my constituency could be rehabilitated and constructed. They must also employ more teachers so that the schools that are under staffed can be adequately staffed.

Sir, I would also like to ask the Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that a big chunk of money is released so that the critical shortage of doctors, nurses and clinical officers that is obtaining on the ground in my district, can be solved in this year’s budget.

Mr D. Mwila: Hammer!

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I realise that Western Province has got potential for tourism. As you may know, we have the Liuwa Game Park, Sioma/Ngwezi Game Park and the famous Sioma Falls on the Zambezi River. I would like the Minister of Finance and National Planning to release the money so that Western Province can also be marketed to the extent that it becomes a tourist destination in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, allow me to join the House in debating the motion moved by the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

In my preamble, may I just say a little about my weekend visit to my constituency which is very relevant to the budget. Sir, the Monze/Nico Road is in a deplorable state. The Government is neglecting Lochinvar National Park which is a very special park to this country. It has over 200 bird species. It is called the bird orchard paradise. In fact, I have been watching it in a documentary from South Africa. However, in this country, we do not see its value and I want this Government to see the value in Lochinvar National Park. That road from Mutende to Munyenze must be done and I hope that this year the money for it will be released.

Mr Speaker, after touring my constituency, I discovered that there was a great need to increase the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I found that three of my schools were closed. The children are not going to school because these schools are in a deplorable state and this has to do with the CDF which must be increased to K1 billion.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: With that increment, we can change the face of this country.

Interruptions

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, let me now go to the budget in earnest. Somehow, I agree with the Minister of Finance and National Planning that this Government has achieved relative stability. As a student of economics, this is something you can debate about. Single digit inflation is good. There is a stable exchange rate. Of course, an exchange rate, for those who do not know economics, cannot remain stuck but must fluctuate within a particular range.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: There is also a reasonable balance of payment position, but there is something that is lacking which I want the Minister of Finance and National Planning to take into account. Macro-economic stability also means dealing with unemployment. If you have single digit inflation, a stable exchange rate and people are unemployed, then that country must be unstable macro-economically.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: So you are still very far from stability. You have to take into account all the variables that constitute macro-economic stability.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Let us come to the economic statistics. It is reported that last year the economy grew by 5.8 per cent. However, let me reveal something. Sectoral performance in agriculture, fisheries and forestry was 2.4 per cent; construction was at 9 per cent; manufacturing at 3.3 per cent; mining and clearing at 11.8 per cent; tourism at 3.1 per cent; energy at 11.3 per cent; transport and communication at 13.4 per cent. My question is on growth. Who is growth for? This country is creating serious capitalism that can easily backfire.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Over 70 per cent of our people live on agriculture, fisheries and forestry and this sector has grown by only 2.4 per cent. There is something wrong with this formula. You have to go back and rework it.

Mr Muyanda: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Come to this House and give us K150 billion for fertiliser support. Most of our people live on subsistence agriculture.

On the Irrigation Fund, I want to warn this House that this must not go into high level irrigation. This money must go to dams to empower the majority of our people. We do not want capitalist agriculture in this country where five farmers feed the whole country and employ nobody because they are using machines. The money must go to the rural areas where the majority of our people are. We need to decongest the towns. People must go to the villages. They cannot continue living in squalor.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Provide incentives for rural areas.

Mr Kasongo: Tell them!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I hope the Minister of Finance and National Planning is listening. You may need a paradigm shift because there is something wrong with your formula. There is something wrong with this formula. This growth in the economy is fake.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, 70 per cent of our people live on this sector. Even under the Millennium Development Goals, the first goal is alleviation of extreme poverty and hunger by 2015. You are giving this little attention to agriculture. You will not even achieve the simple MDG by 2015 if you continue with this formula. So, you must change it. If you do not do that, you must come to this section so that we tell you how to do it.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You must give priority to agriculture so that you can address the needs of the majority of the people in this country. This growth is called jobless growth. A growth without jobs being created is a growth for a few people. That is serious capitalism and I am against the expansion of serious capitalism. We must do something to reverse this otherwise people will be mere spectators in their own economy.

Mr Speaker, I was in my constituency for three days and I went round because I have the energy to do so and I am telling you the truth. This growth is not visible in Bweengwa. The people sacrificed for Independence and when they constructed the Itezhi-tezhi Dam, you did not compensate the people of Bweengwa and Namwala. We are going to take an issue with you on this.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You make the Bottom Road first and the Bweengwa Road must be done this year.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, the wealth of the rural areas - and I want to tell those who do not come from rural areas that I am a village boy. In the rural areas, people grow crops and make money but the ultimate wealth is animals. The money from crop production is re-invested into animals. That is our bank and we give livestock a paltry K47 billion? We are failing to control animal diseases in this country and yet we have the Samora Machel School of Veterinary Medicine established in 1986. Sir, the doctors from this country are doing very well in neighbouring countries. You want these professionals to be loyal, but I can tell you that for one to be loyal, they must have food. You cannot eat loyalty. On this issue of saying that people are running away, we must sit down and see why. Even I went away because my father wanted money and not loyalty.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: We want loyalty and food. Loyalty with a full stomach is full loyalty. So, let us look after our professionals because, at the moment, you are producing for other countries. In Botswana and Namibia, most of the professionals there are from this country. They are all over the world. Some have even gone to America. Let us look after our professionals. We should not accuse them of running away. If we do not give them good conditions, we will encourage them to go so that they bring in foreign exchange.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, if you look at Vision 2030, on page 30 – sector visions, targets and goals, you want to increase the number of livestock to 6 million by 2030 amidst diseases. We need to do something because these diseases are preventable. If some of you do not know where to get the information, go to the University of Zambia at the Samora Machel School of Veterinary Medicine and they will tell you that these diseases are preventable and so we should give these doctors support.

Mr Speaker, on irrigation, there has been talk on this issue. Sir, this money should not go to some authority so that they give it to big farmers and a very big irrigation system in my area because I do not want that. Mr Speaker, we should use this money to construct dams in the rural areas. We must harvest water. Mr Speaker, in Zambia we have never had drought. This drought is just little rainfall. This water flows into Kafue River and goes to the ocean and becomes unusable water because it becomes salty. We must trap this water.

Mr Speaker, I was in Bweengwa at the weekend and when I talked to old people, they told me that Munyenze, Teme, Kemba and Hamangama dams were built before Independence. It seems those people were visionaries and after Independence, no dams were constructed. This money must go to dam construction and not to this capitalist irrigation. We must empower the rural people where the majority live. So, before you unbundle the irrigation scheme, I want twenty-one dams in Bweengwa.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: We have a project. Mr Speaker, I want to move to a very sensitive topic in this country and for Africa as a whole. Something we have not learnt is the link between population and development especially for people who live in town. The population in this town cannot cope with the economic progress and I think we need to sit down and discuss. I do not know whether this should be done under a national conference but as a country we need to sit and decide the size of our families. We must empower the woman. If we come to an average of three children per woman, that is fair. I have three children and I have stopped at that.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: You can have whatever number of wives but the key is the woman. Do not talk about polygamy if you do not know anything. In fact, these polygamous people are even richer than those who have a lot of children in the compounds. Chief Mungobela in Namwala even built a school - Lubanga-Shabongo Primary School, if you have not read about it in your civics. He had many wives but he was wealthy. We are saying that we must empower the girl child. Mr Speaker, you must not have children that you cannot look after. You can marry and be happy. Why should you have children when you cannot look after them? We need leadership on this issue.

Mr Speaker, for those of you who do not go into the compounds, I would like to inform you on what is happening. If you go to the compounds in the evening, say in inner Chawama, Mtendere and Matero, you will see the crisis. You will cry if you love children because there are too many kids. We should implement this so that by 2030, we will have small happy families. I agree with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on one of the comments he made. This country has to sit and if we do not do that, this Vision 2030 must be changed to vision 2099.

Mr Speaker, the annual population growth, according to the last census, is at 2.4 per cent and the economic growth for last year is 5.8 per cent and the real growth is 3.4 per cent. So, agriculture did not grow at all. We must check this issue and those in Government must give leadership, we must have a national conference to discuss this issue because it is serious.

Mr Speaker, let me now move to service delivery. Sir, I am somehow impressed with the theme on the Budget Address, ‘From Relative Stability to Service Delivery’. Sir, I would like to say that service delivery is dead in this country and our colleagues in the Government need to go back to their ministries, settle down and study what is going on there. Sir, from the hon. Minister, Deputy Minister, Permanent Secretary down to the person in Monze, there is nothing happening. The service delivery is not functional. You have a very impressive budget but I am surprised because when I went to Monze, to some of the Government departments, they did not know what is happening. We are talking of figures but they are not visible on the ground and yet some people are buying new cars and building houses. These are civil servants. We must address that. We want hon. Members of Parliament to be involved.

Mr Speaker, I am happy with what His Excellency the President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, did when he said that Members of Parliament must be involved in any funding that goes to the district and I went there to tell the District Commissioner and everybody that we must know about any money coming to Monze.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: The CDF should not be touched when I am not there. I told them that if they touch it, they will leave their job.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: The Constituency Youth Development Fund should not be touched until I go on recess. There should be no carelessness.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: For Bweengwa, the Youth Fund is intact. I just went there to get the bank statements and there will be no disbursement of funds until I go on recess. Mr Speaker, we must pay our workers well in the Government and we should stop wastage through workshops, workshops and workshops. This country is educated, generally in SADC. What are you learning? How do you get your job? Workshop, workshop and workshop! This is a leakage and it must be stopped forthwith. In fact, for the time being now, we must change the system. Let us use the method of hire and fire. Hire and fire in the Civil Service just like in the private sector. Otherwise, we will not deliver anything.

Mr Speaker, these budgets are stepping stones to Vision 2030. At the moment, this stone is disfunctional and cannot work.

Hon. Opposition Member: Uuh.

Mr Hamududu: We will not make any step here. We need a paradigm shift in our planning. We need a new formula. We are not moving towards Vision 2030, but somewhere else. We need to come back by taking note of what we are saying here. If we do not address these concerns, please, do not waste money in workshops for Vision 2030. Please, just take the money to my primary schools which are closed.

Mr Speaker, I want to say that …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer, musankwa, hammer!

Mr Hamududu: … I am very grateful that I was able to run through my constituency in three days and I finished it. Even now my body is still aching. I managed to visit all the areas because of the good transport - the 4 x 4. With poor transport, you cannot manage to visit the constituency. I want to correct this issue. The hon. Members of Parliament need that empowerment - a proper 4 X 4. Those who do not know the constituencies, those who just talk, must accompany us. We need proper 4 X 4 vehicles.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Those vehicles are not for personal comfort. They are for delivering service to our people. I thought, Mr Speaker, we were supposed to clear the impression that these vehicles were for luxury. Luxury for what? We had new cars already. I bought my first car from Toyota Popcoz in Windhoek. It was a brand new vehicle. These vehicles are for delivery and we must not stop having brand new 4 X 4s for us to visit all the areas and ensure that the money approved in this House goes to the people.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Mulongoti): Thank you, Mr Speaker. Today, I have a flu and so my voice is not coming out well. I am grateful for the opportunity to make a contribution to this wonderful budget.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: I have difficulties in appreciating where the anxiety is coming from. I would like to assure my brother from Bweengwa that we are a very listening group here …

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: … and we are very patient. That is why, for instance, when Hon. Sinyangwe is not listening or does not understand, Professor Lungwangwa stands up and gives her a lecture in nomenclature.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Even when some of the economists who have been giving us a lecture begin, sometimes, to assert themselves - this working Government which is so serious - how can it get into such time rushing? For instance, I have been watching Hon. Lubinda with interest.

Mr Speaker, the sitting arrangements were intended for the convenience of the House, …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: … but giving him Hon. Siliya there has brought difficulties for us.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Each time she wants to stand up, he raises a point of order.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Whenever she is not in the House, we are in trouble here.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: He starts teaching us about economics and how we do not understand development. Hon. Lubinda we are with you - a very good Government that is listening.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I think people look at statistics in a very biased way. Statistics serve purposes. One of them is to inform. The other purpose is that you can hide information in the statistics.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: My brother from Bweengwa was talking about the growth without comparing it from period to period and if there were any movements. If you just say there was only 2 per cent growth, but in the meantime the report says that there was a bumper harvest and no starvation …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: …what is the relationship between those figures and what is on the ground? He says he went to his constituency …

Hon. Government Members: For three days!

Mr Mulongoti: … for three days and went round the constituency. That is a miracle because three days for a constituency of its size which is flooded is not possible.

However, Mr Speaker, since the Member of Parliament for Bweengwa is very keen on agriculture, what does it say in this budget on agriculture? The Government will focus on increasing investment in irrigation development, livestock, disease control and farm mechanisation and extension. The Government has allocated K1 trillion, representing 8.8 per cent of the budget to this sector. The Government has further allocated amounts included in the budget. If this is not commitment to agriculture, what is it? There is K205 billion for the Strategic Food Reserve Programme for facilitating the purchase of maize and other crops.

Mr Speaker, is it assumed that when they are going round, purchasing maize, they are not creating employment? Does this maize grow itself?

Hon. Government Member: No.

Mr Mulongoti: Are there no people who man these sheds. Are there no people who transport maize? Are there no people who sell chemicals for the crops? So, I am a little confused. I do not know what he is talking about when there is K37 billion for irrigation development. I think, in this budget, when we say this money is going to such and such, it is available for the development of irrigation. It needs even the hon. Members of Parliament, here to have the capacity to develop irrigation in their constituencies. They can access this. The problem is we are busy complaining as if there are names of recipients.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: This money is intended for the development of the country. So, hon. Members, please, help us. You are taking development backwards. Even in the agriculture infrastructure developments, there are no names. It is intended for developing the country. What is your problem? There is K47.5 billion for livestock development…

Mr Magande: Including disease

Mr Mulongoti: … including disease control. I mean, for instance - I am not an agricultural person - where I come from, the biggest animal is a dog.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: So, it is very difficult for me to apply for this facility. It is intended for Hon. Muntanga there to replace all those animals dying from denkete.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Access this.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Then you can grow and develop.

Mr Muntanga stood up.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Muntanga sit down.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to provoke an Member of Parliament who is sitting quietly trying to listen to him, who owns only a dog …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … and trying to compare that I have any problem, and yet, the figures are urging me to debate to prove him wrong? Is he in order to provoke a Member of Parliament who is sitting quietly and decently? We do not talk to people who own only dogs. Is he in order?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Kalomo who was referred to in the debate by the hon. Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs was having his attention drawn to money in the budget for producers like him who have animals bigger than dogs …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … to benefit from that fund he was referring to. So, he is in order.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I thank you for protecting me. Those are the difficulties we face when the hon. Minister makes a provision for funds for the development of the Government. He is not comfortable with that. There is also K40 billion for agricultural services. I think he knows that better than I do. Then there is K35.7 billion for fishery development. It is unfortunate that Hon. Kasongo is not here. We were discussing floods with him but he said that these floods were good for breeding fish.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: You can see how development conscious he is. While some of you are seeing floods as disaster, he is looking at fish breeding.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: That is the kind of Member of Parliament I am looking for …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: … who can see value in a situation like that …

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: And opportunities

Mr Mulongoti: … and opportunities.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I have seen in here, the growth of mining. I have met so many entrepreneurs in the mining sector …

Hon. Government Member: Kambwili!

Mr Mulongoti: … who are doing very well. I have been told that some of them mine through scrap metal.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: However, there is a provision in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for people to access money to develop their mining activities. In the meantime, we are being told that there is development in copper and not in other things. If any investor worth his salt finds that there is more money in copper, why should he continue digging coal?

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Is that is being a clever investor? Yesterday, we were told that any investor had to have a tactical motive. If there is more money in copper, you change to copper. This is what we call apt in business. While your friends are selling metals that have value, you stick to scrap metal.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Kambwili!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, people are apologising in bold, for sins of the past. Now, the concessions that are given to the mining companies were put in place when those who are apologising today for other sins, were in office. We want to see them apologise for those other things. I will give an example. They gave what were called trading losses in the mining sector to Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) for twenty years. Others who were trading and mining in base metals were given ten years and others five years. Surely, is that not enough of a sin to apologise for?

He is apologising for having debated improperly in the House and yet he went on to support the Bill and pass an Act which disadvantaged the people of Zambia for twenty years. We invite you to apologise for that as well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Government Member: Hon. Minister, the fisherman (Hon. Kasongo) is back in the House.

Mr Mulongoti: For instance, Hon. Kasongo used to be a very clear thinker and good debater before. Now that he has joined groupings, there are difficulties …

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: He was a Permanent Secretary and a hon. Minister. He is supposed to acknowledge the efforts that we are making as a Government. We have made strides. Let me just read some statistics that are here to show you that this is a working Government.

Sir, in review of the 2006 economic performance, GDP Growth in 2005 was 5.1 and in 2006, it was 5.8. That is growth. Inflation, in 2005, was 13.9 and in 2006, it was 8.2. This is a single digit. Surely, do you see these things or you do not even know what they mean?

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: We see them as theory!

Mr Mulongoti: Non-traditional export earnings in 2005 were US$581 million and in 2006 they were US$622 million.

Hon. Government Members: Including scrap metal.

Mr Mulongoti: Now, that also includes scrap metal as part of non-traditional exports.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: There was, certainly, development and that is why some of you came to the House because you exported scrap metal and you were able to come here. There was development.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: The Domestic Government Debt stock in 2005 was US$6,189 million. In 2006, it came to US$7,687 million, but it has been explained that the reason is that it was increased in the security which are bonds, securities, and also awards to people who have been compensated and so on. This increase is not an accident.

Sir, with regard to foreign debt stock, in 2005, it was US$4.5 million and in 2006, US$0.635 million.

Mr Kambwili: How does it benefit the teachers?

Mr Mulongoti: The problem with some of you is that you talk about benefiting one group of the community. This is a Government. We look at all of you, including Hon. Mtonga.

Laughter

Mr Mtonga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mtonga: Mr Speaker, I rise on a serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister in order to constantly point fingers at this side of the House when he is addressing the Chair? Is he in order to continuously draw this side of the House into a hullabaloo, lowering the dignity of this House? He has not even told us which paper he is reading from or whether he is going to Table it or not.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Kanyama, through that two pronged point of order, is reminding, through the Chair, the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs that finger pointing in the Chamber is not advisable. You have seen me do this (raised his arm). This is not finger pointing but arm pointing.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: This (raised his arm) is acceptable and this (raised his finger) is not acceptable.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Secondly, the hon. Member for Kanyama wants to know the source of that information. What sort of text book is the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs reading from? Is it a document that has been freely made available to all hon. Members or is it privy to him alone?

May he continue and clarify that particular issue.

Mr Mulongoti: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am quoting from a document which is analysing the statistics that are in the budget. It has been distributed from Grant Thornton. Anybody who has read the budget will see that the figures are correct to the dot. Do not be scared. If you want, I can lay it on the Table when I am finished.

Mr Speaker, before I was interrupted by the former Inspector-General of Police, let me proceed by discussing the provision of services. I will be using the palm and book to illustrate issues.

Sir, I have heard hon. Members lamenting seriously about cholera. Lusaka City Council is in the control of our colleagues from the other grouping. Livingstone City and Kitwe City councils are under the control of another grouping. Surely, if there are difficulties in running councils, how do you hope to take over from us?

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: The people are watching you. You promised the people that if you won elections, you would build houses in ninety days, but you can not even control cholera. How are you able to build houses in ninety days if you can not even control cholera? The challenge is for you. For us, as a Government, we are ready to lend a hand, but when we try to lend a hand, you threaten to suspend your members. What are we expected to do? We will be watching as you mess yourselves up.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: It will not be long…

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to digress from the very important debate of the budget when he has just graduated from the University of Zambia and is supposed to understand the importance of debating a very important motion like the budget to be joking and playing to the gallery?

Mr Speaker: My ruling on the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Bahati is that the issue of disease control which the hon. Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs referred to is part of this budget because it deals with those diseases which reduce the their ability of the people of Zambia to work. The only additional ruling I would like to make is to ask the hon. Deputy Minister to justify his assertion that in all the cities and towns where cholera is prevailing, those municipalities are under the control of Non-Governmental Organisations. Let him justify that, please.

Will the hon. Deputy of Foreign Affairs continue, please.

Mr Mulongoti: Thank you, Mr Speaker. We have been listening to explanations from the hon. Ministers of Health and Local Government and Housing and hon. Members telling us areas where cholera is prevalent. It is evident that those areas are under the control of other groupings. If they want to challenge that, let them show which council they are in control of and where we have difficulty.

Mr Speaker, the difficulty that we have is that, as leaders, we have an obligation to the people of Zambia. We must provide leadership. The growth of the economy of this country cannot happen without us participating. What value are we adding, as leaders, to the growth of this economy? When the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning makes provisions in the budget, it means that the Government is providing an enabling environment and so we must show leadership. If you are an hon. Member in an area where there is farming and you do not have a farm, just know you are not providing the leadership. If you are an hon. Member from an area where they catch fish and you have no boats and nets, you are not providing leadership.

Laughter.

Mr Mulongoti: When you start asking questions about money provided in the budget and saying that it will go to other people, what are you saying to us? Are you saying that you are not part of the citizenry? Or is your role to come here and challenge the figures without knowing the implications? You must show leadership. You must work with us. We are ready to work with you.

Hon. Government Member: Like Kambwili.

Mr Mulongoti: When we started, there was so much aggression from one group here. I am very grateful that so many of my friends now have emerged from that group. We meant and we still mean very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: We would want you to develop your constituencies by co-operating because we are one group like the Deputy Speaker had ruled at one time that we are all allies. It is the degree of how close you are or how much you distance yourself that will determine the ability to develop your constituency. The offices of hon. Ministers are there for you. You have read what the budget has for agriculture and mining. If you do not know how much has been provided for a particular project, visit the offices to find out because that is what it is there for. It is not intended to…

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister is a Deputy Minister with a defined function of foreign affairs. Is he in order, therefore, to spend seventeen of the twenty minutes allocated to him just to wander about the bush without giving this House any opportunity to listen to the policies of his Government on matters of foreign affairs so as to warrant our debate and support of his ministry? Is he in order to just wander about when he has a definite function as Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs when he knows very well that the budget is a document that translates policies? When is he going to do that if he does not do it now? I seek your serious ruling, Sir.

Mr Speaker: My ruling on the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Kabwata is that the Chair has no problem with the manner in which the hon. Deputy Minister is debating.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: It is clear that the hon. Member for Kabwata would like, in the remaining three and half minutes, to hear something about the hon. Deputy Minister’s portfolio. If he so wishes, he can touch on his ministry.

Will the hon. Deputy Minister continue, please.

Mr Mulongoti: Thank you, Mr Speaker. Where I belong, we respect order. The hon. Minister is in the House and when I speak on policy, I get very cautious because the political leader of my ministry is my hon. Minister. I know that he is going to say something about it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: However, since you insist, I want to assure you that we are pursuing a foreign policy that will be protective of your interests as a citizen and that we will not betray you, knowing that you love travelling. Instructions will be given to the consular officers to look after you well and I know your intentions to have a diplomatic passport, but we do not issue those. They are for the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Laughter

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, with these few remarks,…

Hon. Government Members: Continue!

Mr Mulongoti: …I thank you very much, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, thank you very much. I am not going to quarrel with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning like …

Mr Speaker: Order!{mospagebreak}

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, before we broke for tea, I was saying that I am not going to quarrel with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, like before, over Value Added Tax on agriculture. This time around, he deserves to be praised because he was able to withstand pressure from the International Monetary Fund and World Bank. The people of Zambia and we, farmers, were preparing to join the countrywide demonstration against tax that was going to be imposed on all agricultural products. Fortunately, the hon. Minister has exempted all the agricultural products. He has not standard-rated them and on, that score, I congratulate him.

Mr Speaker, little did I know that for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to perform his duties as expected by the electorate, he needs to contest and win an election. Now that he has a constituency, he understands what the people want, unlike last time when he was a Nominated Member and he could not listen to the people’s cries on issues of agricultural products being taxed.

Mr Speaker, before I go into the real debate on this year’s budget, I wish to inform the Government that, this year, we are not likely to have a bumper harvest because the rain pattern is two-fold. We have heavy rainfall on one side, where people are losing their lives, houses are falling and crops are submerging while, on the other side, there is little rainfall, for instance, in Southern Province where the crops are now tassling, but this is the time that the rain has stopped. The same goes for Eastern Province where you will not see the best of the crop that you generally see due to leaching. Therefore, the expected bumper harvest is not going to be achieved this year.

At this point, I wish to advise the Government to stop the export of maize. Last time when I advised the Government to buy crops early and reserve them in the storage sheds, they did not want to do that immediately, but opted to act at a later stage.

There are 120 wagons at the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) sheds waiting to shift maize to Harare and Bulawayo and if you have 130-ton wagons, you are going to ferry 7200 bags by 50 kilograms. That is 3600 metric tonnes of maize to be exported.

Mr Speaker, since the weather pattern is not good this year, we should not export maize. As has been observed, on one hand we have floods while on the other we have reduced rainfall. This is why we are urging the Government to slow down on the maize export because we do not want to cry again.

Mr Speaker, coming from the agricultural fraternity I want to stick to it so that other people can look at other spheres of the economy. I have seen that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has tried to raise the budget from 6 per cent to 8 per cent on agriculture.

Mr Speaker, a few years ago, the President came here and informed this august House about the creation of the Irrigation Task Force and that he was going to raise US $30,000 as irrigation funds. To date, we are still awaiting the outcome of that task force, and to me, this is a problem.

Again, before the budget, last November, we were informed that there is money already available - up to K40 billion. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning gave a ministerial statement in this House that there was K37 billion. I, therefore, would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, when winding up debate, to categorically explain to this House whether this K37 billion is separate from the budget because this money should have been there before the budget. In his own speech, he has included the K37 billion as being part of the budget of K1 trillion and this worries me. That being the case, what happened to the money we were told was there? Has it disappeared? If that is the case, it means that we do not stick to our promises.

Mr Speaker, we have praised the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that the budget he is proposing to this House is 78 per cent locally supported and about 22 per cent foreign supported. However, I am afraid to note that in actual fact, in agriculture, it is the other way round.

Mr Speaker, of this K1 trillion that he has budgeted, there is K780 billion - which is 78 -per cent - that has gone or is coming from grants. This money, to be specific K781,164,724,288,  is money brought into the agriculture budget as grants from IFAD, ADB, JICA, JBF, CIDA, FINIDA, DFID and a statement like various donors K53.3 billion.

Mr Speaker, agriculture is said to be the cornerstone of the economy as this Government is saying. How can we, now, have a budget for the agricultural industry based on 78 per cent donor funding and 22 per cent being what the Government is going to provide? Even this K1 trillion had over K3 billion to K4 billion, all for purchasing food and the fertiliser programme. Then the rest would have gone to other things. This being the case, I want it to be clarified because the figures are there. He has broken them down to you for grants.

Mr Speaker, I have gone further to look at what is there. Maybe, it is not the problem of the Minister of Finance and National Planning. The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives should have been here so that he can go and check it up. Maybe, they used to divert the money and change figures.

Mr Speaker, we have all talked about women support in agriculture, but in this budget, there is only K100 million reserved for them. How is it possible that we are going to have only K100 million for the empowerment of women groups? We have to put in the capacity building and other extensions such as training in places like Savoy and Siavonga. For all these things, the allocation is K730 million.

Mr Speaker, on dam construction and rehabilitation, K780 million has been allocated, and yet last year, there was K1 billion budgeted for the rehabilitation of dams. We were asked to submit the required amounts for each dam and, at that time, I was very close to the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives. He said that we were going to build bar dams and I proposed to have at least three dams per ward.

The amount of K1 billion which has been provided is too little. A few were helped here and there, but this time, there is even a reduction to only K780 million as compared to K730 million for seminars.

Mr Speaker, we are talking about irrigation and that is what we need to support. I have looked through the budget. There are these irrigation structures which are very important. They are things like water abstraction systems from dams. I have about two or three systems in my constituency which are helping small-scale farmers. Now, what money has been allocated because that is the actual irrigation support for small-scale farmers which we are talking about without necessarily bringing in electricity and other things? What is the budget there? Mr Speaker, there is only an allocation of a paltry K30 million and that can only be used for the construction of one dam.

Sir, we have now gone on to support places that are heavy rainfall areas like Northern, Luapula and others where you would need to have abstraction of water from streams. What are they saying? There is only an initial amount for construction, designing, and stream diversions systems for irrigation. That is what it can do. The money that has been allocated there is only K70million. That is for all of North-Western, Luapula, Northern Province and any other heavy-rainfall area. Where are you going to go with K70 million?

Mr Speaker, if we are talking about agriculture being the mainstay to be supported, I would like the Government to look a little further than just talking and dancing around. Look at the figures. Be serious when you say that where our mouths are is where we want to put our money.

Mr Speaker, I have gone on to look at this K37 billion which is appearing in the budget. What have you done with it? I have looked at the Rural Investment Fund and Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP). There is an allocation of K1.8 billion that should go to big dam construction. PRP on irrigation has an allocation of K4 billion.

Mr Speaker, so there is the K1.8 billion and the K4 billion and a further allocation of K9 billion that should go towards PRP directly. So, K14.2 billion of K37 billion will go directly to PRP. There is a balance of K22.2 billion.

Mr Speaker, when you look through this budget, you will find things like irrigation, sensitisation and training. When you look at the release of this money, every department under that ministry has gone into training. When are we going to have these doctors and extension officers stop training?

Mr Speaker, when the money donor-funded or it is a grant, they will follow to the letter that are these seminars happening. We are going to have a similar situation like that of HIV/AIDS where there has been too much training. People go for seminars every time using HIV/AIDS funding. It is only now that you are trying to divert a bit to go to the actual people who are suffering.

Sir, I think it is time for the hon. Minister to look at the K37 billion critically as we approve the budget. I would prefer most of it goes to the actual PRP. It should go to the actual construction and diversions of water from streams or to help the people.

Mr Speaker, there is money allocated for roads. When I read from his speech that there was going to be road rehabilitation under agriculture, I was dancing and smiling, thinking we were about to have a budget like the one we used to have in the old days where the Government was caring for the small rural roads. Alas! Mr Speaker, I have not seen anything new in the budget other than the agriculture extension officers going for training and seminars. Why? I think that is a concern hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

We have cut away the support from out-grower schemes. We had an allocation of K1.7 billion in last year’s budget. We started with an allocation of K15 billion on the out-grower schemes, reduced it to K5 billion and, last year, there was K1.7 billion. This time, it is K23 million for tobacco. Not even I can take that.

Sir, that is not all. There were so many high value crops that were supporting out-grower schemes. There is nothing this time. All I have seen is the movement of that US$5 million, allocation, again, to support for capacity building for out-grower supporters – training of trainers. What are you up to?

Mr Matongo: Public functions and ceremonies.

Mr Muntanga: You have provided for field days, public functions, tours - foreign tours - and visitation of other countries. What are you talking about? Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, even with your nice beautiful figures, you will not have any growth under such arrangements. At 7 per cent growth, we will never have Zambia as a middle income country in 2030. Never!

Mr Speaker, if we can raise and have a 15 per cent growth and then you raise your GDP, and when you have your 15 per cent growth, you talk about US$100 billion as a percentage of GDP, then the GDP in the pocket of every Zambia can come to about US$5,000 or there about. Then you can talk about middle class.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: Yes, you work it out. It is about K5,000,000. You are not going to achieve your middle class Zambian at 7 per cent GDP in 2030. That I am prepared, now, to work out and quarrel with the hon. Minister Finance and National Planning, but I have said that for 2030, you must hope to raise the GDP from seven to higher figures. That is what I am talking about. However, we cannot achieve higher figures if 78 per cent of the budget on agriculture is supported by grants from foreign donor countries.

Mr Matongo: 100 per cent production

Mr Muntanga: Then you want to achieve 100 per cent production. How do you do it?

Mr Speaker, these are figures contained in the budget. I would like to give a chance to the hon. Minister so that as we debate- Oh! The Ministry of Finance and National Planning is the most difficult.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: We must realise that the Rural Investment Fund should be raised to something higher than K1.8 billion. Your PRP should be increased from the K10.2 billion to K28 or K30 billion.

Mr Matongo: Redirected.

Mr Muntanga: Actually redirected. If we want to help the rural people, the actual construction and designing of abstraction of water from streams should be increased. The actual abstraction and construction of water from dams should be increased. The dam construction should be regarded as a big issue in Zambia.

When President Robert Mugabe got a near Oscar praise of raising the production in Zimbabwe, he built dams in every single district of Zimbabwe. It was a big issue. They would go on radio to announce how high the water has filled one of the dams- the Mazoe Dam - where a lot of farming is done. Which dam are you going to praise yourselves for?

Hon. Government Members: Kariba Dam!

Mr Muntanga: You are not talking about Kariba Dam.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, last time, I gave free advice to the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives that we should create big dams. I advised him to block the Kalomo River and put dams but, unfortunately, he did not get support. We would have raised a lot of water to about fifty metres from the same project and would even have managed to generate up to 700 Mega Watts of electricity. This information is available.

Mr Speaker, we need serious projects which create jobs. The biggest employer in Zambia is agriculture. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning married from Siachitema area in Kalomo Constituency and I overheard him talk about people having money in Choma the other time. This is because some people were prepared to put their money together to support these schemes. This time, the Zimbabwean farmers have gone because the exchange rate was fluctuating too much. At the time they were producing their crops, it was about K3,000 per US$1. By the time they were going to sell their produce, it would have been K2,900 per US$1 and would have made losses. These farmers are now gone. What I am saying is that you should stabilise the kwacha exchange rate and put in projects to increase production in agriculture. I think that in this way, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning will work well.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Mulasikwanda): Mr Speaker, I would like to make my own attribute to the National Budget of 2007, a budget that has given hope to many Zambians and have appreciated it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, yesterday, as the House sat, I overheard some of the people on my right not acknowledging and even appreciating how beautiful and good this budget for 2007 is…

Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda:… because they lack spiritual eyes and ears for them to see and hear what has been tabled in this budget for the good of the Zambian people. I pray to my God Almighty to open their eyes and ears so that they can see and hear how best we are going to move this country forward.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, therefore, let me clarify the issues that I heard yesterday in this House.

Sir, yesterday, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kasama referred to a vision in this House. He said a vision could only be called a vision if it pleases the people. Many citizens of this country such as the churches, the ZCTU, all the stakeholders and intellectuals have appreciated the 2007 Budget.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Therefore, because it has inspired many, I would say that the hon. Minister has a vision to lift this country from where it is to another and higher level. I congratulate and thank him and all his working members of staff who had contributed to such a beautiful and good budget.

Sir, the hon. Member for Kasama also went further to compare Zambia, in 1964, with the way it is in 2007. He said that in 1964, Zambia was a prosperous country. Yes, I think it was because Zambia had only a population of about one million four hundred thousand to two million people against such a good and vast economy of our country. Everything was in abundance. Furthermore, the agricultural setup was very good, but it was highly devastated a few years ago until the time when His Excellency President Mwanawasa, SC, became the Republican President of this country. We delayed the foundation of our country which we stand on today.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, when something is good, the Zambian people must rise and say, ‘thank you,’…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda:… because it is not only for the hon. Members who are in the Front Bench here but also, for all the Zambian people. If something goes wrong in this country, it is not going to choose whether it is us in the Front Bench or somebody on my right  because we are all Zambian people. Therefore, there is need for the people of Zambia and, in particular, hon. Members of Parliament in this House, not to mislead the Zambian people. We must come here to debate and to try and lead our nation to a way where we shall take this country to better and greater heights for the sake of our children and our grandchildren.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Sir, I also want to thank the former hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives and the current one who had been working tirelessly, day and night to put back all the things that had been destroyed. Because of the good policies that have been put in place in agriculture, we have seen that for the past two years, Zambia has been able to export maize and we have earned some foreign exchange which is vital for a better standard of living.

Hon. Members: Hammer!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, I am so disturbed at our attitude, as Zambian people, because this time around, after so many years of independence, if people can fail to acknowledge good things that have been put in place for the people of Zambia, then I wonder which direction this country would like to go. I, therefore, stand here to advise that when we come into this House, we should not talk about our political alliances. We should talk about how best we are going to help take our country to greater heights like what Hon. Magande’s budget has done.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, I have also seen that jobs have been created through the mines that were closed. When the New Deal Government came into power, a lot of mines were re-opened and new ones created. This brought jobs to our people who were in misery because of loss of jobs. As far as I am concerned, I am not an economist, but as long as I am ready to hear and see that the people have been given jobs, they are able to feed, I feel we are doing well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, I want to ask the Zambian people and, in particular, hon. Members of Parliament who are here that we should go out there to the people and sensitise them that we should, at all costs, try to make the minds of our people change from a negative to a positive attitude because…

Interruptions

Ms Mulasikwanda: I am talking to those who have been saying this budget is not good when the budget is completely good.

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, I want them to advise that they should, at least, go to the people and sensitise them to change from being negative to positive because it is only from a positive side that all of us are going to deliver what the Zambians out there are expecting us to do.

Mr Speaker, I am happy that my Government is a working Government. The New Deal Government has done lot for the betterment of our country. Let us all accept that the New Deal Government is on the right track and needs to be supported by every Zambian who cares for this country.

Mr Speaker, in 2007, we are being informed that agriculture has grown and it is now at 3.9 per cent and that we have yielded about 1.34 million metric tonnes as compared to 856 metric tonnes the previous year . This shows an improvement.

Mr Speaker, what is even worsening our situation in terms of agriculture are the people who are running aware from our rural set up where there is good land which has not yet been utilised. They want to come to Lusaka where they are coming up with shelters everywhere and the whole city is now in havoc.

Mr Speaker, because of the same negative attitude, they are not even able to remove the dirt and rubbish that they keep. They just keep on piling it. If it were in the village, there would be no such a thing. As for me, and Western Province in particular, there is no cholera.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Therefore, the attitude of the Zambian people must change. They should not expect the Government to even come and sweep their dirt and remove it and take it to where…

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: We should utilise our hands which God has given us to dig even the pits where we can throw rubbish so that the flies keep away from our food.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Where, on earth, have you seen a government - instead of doing bigger things - going to start digging pits for people?

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: Sir, this is what I have heard in the House. People are saying that the Government should do this and that. Where?

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: It is not right, Sir.

Mr Speaker, manufacturing has also improved.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Chair wants to hear. It is listening.

May the hon. Deputy Minister, please, continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer! Hammer!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, I am talking about the budget for 2007 which is very good and embraces all Zambians. Those who are strong - and businessmen - will earn a lot of money and employ their fellow Zambians who have no jobs because the taxes have been brought down.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Ms Mulasikwanda: The duties, also, at the borders have been cut down.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Sir, these is why I have risen to support this budget and advise my hon. Colleagues, on my right, to stop attacking this budget which is so good for us.

Mr D. Mwila: Aah!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Finally, not finally, Mr Speaker …

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: … there are two issues I want to raise before I end.

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: Recently, the President of China was in this country and he has promised that 60,000 jobs are going to be created for the Zambian people. Is that not good?

Laughter

Ms Mulasikwanda: 60,000 jobs. It has never happened before, but it is going to happen this year - 2007 to 2015.

Sir, yesterday, the hon. Member for Kasama (Dr Chishimba), complained about the money that has been allocated for the rehabilitation of State House. State House is a Government house and does not belong to anyone. It belongs to all of us. It is the image of our country. So, if we leave State House to dilapidate, what would the world think of us, the Zambian people? This is the negative attitude I was  talking about. We must leave this negative attitude. Truly, we must move to the positive  …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: … so that when good things are put in place, both those in and outside Zambia will appreciate that, truly, there is a government in place.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: Mr Speaker, finally, let me just thank Hon. Magande and his staff for a job well done. I support this budget and call for its implementation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mulasikwanda: If these hon. Members on the right were striving to ask for money so that they could go and quickly implement all these things that are in this budget, then I was going to support them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Well done!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this chance to debate the motion on the Floor. I will only discuss one item which is the inadequate funding of ROADSIP II.

A week and half ago, we had a workshop and we were told that between now and 2013, we require US$1.6 billion which is equivalent to K7 trillion. Now, the remaining five years translate into K1.4 trillion per year. When you look at the 2007 budget, it only gives half of that which is about K787 billion for road infrastructure development and maintenance. How, then, can we bridge this gap? Mr Speaker, the UDA Government would have bridged this gap.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: The people on your left were not going to allow this gap.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: If the people on your right are not happy with my statement, I challenge them to implement what I will tabulate.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: How do we bridge the gap? Firstly, in the past five years we were singing the same song, I remember that I even moved a motion here to have the fuel levy taken straight to the Road Fund, but that has not been done.

So, once more I would like to appeal to the Government to amend the Finance Act by issuing a Statutory Instrument so that when the Zambia Revenue Authority collects the fuel levy, it is remitted directly to the Roads Fund. The current long route makes the fuel levy vulnerable to leakages and that has contributed to the yawning gap which I talked about.

Mr Speaker, we know how the fuel levy is collected at the moment. It is collected from the oil companies. The Zambia Revenue Authority collects it and then it is taken to the Bank of Zambia. From the Bank of Zambia, it is taken to Control No. 99 and it is mixed with all the taxes…

Mr Simbao: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am very sorry to make a point of order on the hon. Minister, sorry, the hon. Member on the Floor.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: I think he is worth all the titles. Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to continue saying that fuel levy is not sent directly to the Roads Fund when that has been the situation for the past two years? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Works and Supply is saying that, in fact, contrary to the assertion in the debate by the hon. Member for Moomba, the fuel levy is going directly to the Roads Fund. In that case, that point of order is informative. May the hon. Member for Moomba take note and, please, continue.

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, my fellow engineer, I think, knows very well that if the whole amount of the money was sent to the Roads Fund, then we were not going to lag behind. We know that the Government owes the National Roads Board a lot of money, something to the tune of about K250 billion.

Mr Speaker, the second point I would like the Government to note is on the road user charges. I remember that last year we had a Bill that 50 per cent of the road licence fees…

Mr Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1916 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 22nd February, 2007.