DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 2nd March, 2007

The House met at 0900 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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 BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Madam Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Madam, on Tuesday, 6th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will go into Committee of Supply if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will go into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:
 
Head 11 -  Zambia Police - Ministry of Home Affairs
 Head 15 -  Ministry of Home Affairs;
 Head 12 - Commission for Investigations – Office of the President;
 Head -   Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development; and
 Head 17 - Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

On Wednesday, 7th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motion, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

 Had 45 - Ministry of Community Development and Social Services;
 Head 31 - Ministry of Justice;
 Head 18 - Judiciary;
 Head 29 - Ministry of Local Government and Housing; and
Head 20 - Loans and Investments – Ministry of Local Government and Housing.

On Thursday, 8th March, 2007, the business of the house will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the following Heads:

 Head 37 - Ministry of Finance and National Planning;
Head 21 - Loans and Investment – Ministry of Finance and National Planning;
Head 26 -  Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services; and
Head 27 - Public Service Management Division.

Madam, on Friday, 9th March, 2007, the business of the House will begin with the Vice-President’s Question Time. Then, the House will consider Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 33 - Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry;
 Head 34 - Human Rights Commission; and
 Head 44- Ministry of Labour and Social Security.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President clear the air on the issue of Mr Katumbi, Governor of the Katanga Province in Congo, DR. What is the Government’s position on this issue because he is practically challenging you, as a Government as it was reported recently?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Hachipuka for giving me this opportunity to shed some light on this issue. I hope at the end of my reply, we will not discuss this matter any further and my brother across the boarder will understand that I, as Vice-President of Zambia, am under obligation to answer questions in this House during the Vice-President’s Question Time.

Mr Kambwili laughed.

The Vice-President: The position of the Government is unchanged. We have stated our position before and the Task Force has also stated its position publicly and in the newspapers. It is a known fact that the Task Force would like to interview my brother from across the boarder over some issues.

The question is that if Mr Katumbi who is the Governor of the Katanga Province in the Congo DR were to come here on Government Business, would the law visit him? My answer was yes, it will visit him if there is a need to visit him. If indeed, the authorities are looking for him, they will visit him. This is an honest answer and Mr Katumbi would not like to be deceived into believing the Task Force are not looking for him so that he comes here only to find himself facing the law. I stated that if he came here, the Task Force would like to interview him.

Madam Speaker, I would like to dwell a little on this question because it involves two sister countries; two countries that are the closest neighbours and have lived together for many years without any problems. Therefore, I would not like this issue to spoil the relation between the two countries. I only wish to state the fact that if he visited Zambia, the Task Force would ask him some questions. I do not see any reason for him to single me out as a culprit, because at the time when the problems with the Task Force started, I was not in office yet.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: It is, therefore, only fair for him to cease singling out the leaders in this country and to try and cause conflicts among them for instance, by pointing out that one minister said this, and he thinks that minister is very wise, the Vice-President does not know anything or that the President said this and he thinks that he will forgive him etc. This is a country of laws. The President has stated this on many occasions. There is no one in this country who is above the law, not even the Vice-President. Therefore, the Vice-President must advise accordingly. If Hon. Katumbi was to visit Zambia, as stated by the Government on several occasions, the Task Force would like to ask him some questions.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, could the Vice-President inform this House about the on-going strikes on the Copperbelt. The first one is the strike at Mopani copper Mines that was reported in Thursday’s edition of The Post newspaper, dated March 2007, and it reads:

‘Unionised workers at Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) have resolved to go on strike over the failure by the country’s second largest copper mine to award them “decent” salary increments.’

Another paper, the Times of Zambia for today reads:

‘More than 1000 workers at Luanshya Copper Mines (LCM) yesterday went on strike demanding a 40 per cent salary increment as opposed to management’s offer of 18 per cent.’

I will quote further another strike in the same Times of Zambia newspaper and it reads:

‘And 70 workers at the Chinese-owned Sinozam Friendship Hospital (SFH) in Kitwe yesterday staged a five-hour protest to demand better working conditions and salary adjustments.’

I need a comment from the Vice-President.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament has asked whether the Government is aware of the industrial actions that are taking place on the Copperbelt at the second largest mine Mopani. Yes, the Government is aware. However, I would like to state that whatever is happening there is normal. It is normal for workers to go on strike. It is normal for workers to sit down with their employers in order to negotiate. It is part of free collective bargaining which all of us know exists all over the world.

The Copperbelt Province has many mines now and there is so much business therefore, we should expect these kinds of problems from time to time. We believe that both the workers and the employers are capable of resolving their problems. It is our business to monitor what is happening and assist in any way we can, but we cannot interfere with the free collective bargaining that is taking place. The Government knows what is taking place at the moment. I would like to assure the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili that this issue will be resolved as soon as possible.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda (Senanga): Madam Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President comment on the effects of the floods in various parts of the country, as you know the whole country has been devastated by floods. May he comment on that?

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for Senanga for raising that question on the effects of the floods which have devastated parts of the country. Many of our people have been displaced, crops have been submerged or washed away by the floods due to excessive rain and children are unable to go to school because the rivers are flooded and are ill as a result of drinking contaminated water. This has brought about abject poverty and like in the Southern Province, there are cattle diseases etc.

Mr Muntanga: What is the Government doing about this?

The Vice-President: What are we doing?

Mr Muntanga: Just answer the question!

The Vice-President: The hon. Members of Parliament are aware of what the Government is doing. Although at the beginning of the season we thought that we would have a drought, there were floods overnight due to heavy rains. The Government, through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit and the Office of the Vice-President, is providing relief all over the country on a daily basis. The people from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit are in every district of this country, trying to assist our people. Of course, they cannot satisfy everyone who has been affected by the floods, but I can assure this honourable House and Hon. Madam Speaker that the Government is committed to relieving the pain of our people. We know that this is a serious problem and in the debate yesterday, hon. Members underlined this fact by supporting the budget for the Office of the Vice-President and in many cases, hon. Members said that what we were asking for was not adequate. I wish to assure them that are comfortable with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning’s support and that all the relief foods required will be sent to various parts of the country. We have enough food in the country and have made arrangement with the relevant organisations to ensure that the relief food is sent to all parts of the country where it is required.

I wish to remind hon. Members that this will not be the end of the problem. The rains will stop, but the effects of the disaster are much deeper than what we see. Many hon. Members have referred to bridges and roads that have been destroyed. I saw the road between Mongu and Senanga with the bridge completely destroyed. I could not understand how the road was built in the first place. However, all the roads and bridges will have to be repaired.

We have to find money somehow in order to return the country to normality. People in rural areas have to start working as we are doing in the urban areas. So, I wish to take advantage of this question to, once again, reiterate the position of the Government that they will not sit idly while the country is devastated by floods without any effort on their part.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, could His Honour the Vice President assured this House that following the devastation caused by Contagious Bovine Plural Pneumonia (CBPP) in the Western Province and Southern provinces such that there has been a lack of vaccines from about August last year to date, vaccines will be made available to these areas immediately.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my brother the hon. Member for Luena (Mr Milupi) for raising this pertinent question which is worrying many hon. Members. We all recall that two days ago, we had a very heated debate here. We were treated to a well researched Motion on this cattle disease in the Southern Province.

Madam Speaker, during our last visit to the Western Province, we had the privilege and honour of meeting the Litunga as well as the Kuta and all the stakeholders in the Western Province and this problem was underlined; it was raised at every corner of our visit. Therefore, it is obvious that this is a major problem. As Vice President’s Office, immediately this matter was brought to our attention, we got in touch with the relevant authorities here in Lusaka at the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. We spoke to the Veterinary Department and asked them whether there were any drugs which could be sent to the Western Province immediately and the answer was yes, they were. We asked them why they had not been sent and they said they would send them.

Madam Speaker, I have since received a report from hon. Members of this House from the Western Province that these drugs have still not been sent to the Western Province. I would like to take this opportunity now to raise this matter again. As Vice President, my colleague the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives and I would like the Government to pay a courtesy call to the palace of the Litunga, meet with the Kuta and hear their problems and in co-operation, work to provide these drugs to the animals.

Madam Speaker, it is absolutely important that everybody co-operates in this respect. There was a suggestion from the hon. Member for Kalomo that the cordon line should be built between the Southern and Western provinces. I was assured by the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives that at the moment, the cordon line between Angola and the Western Province is being constructed to get to the route of the problem, Angola being the source of this disease. I am sure that as a result of the pressure that the Government is receiving from all stakeholders in the Southern Province, the issue of a cordon line between the Southern and the Western provinces is actively considered.

However, I would like, once again, to thank hon. Members for realising how important these issues are. The wealth of the majority of the Zambian people in the rural areas is in animals. We have listened to well-researched speeches in this House from Hon. Chizhyuka and many other hon. Members of this House to the effect that – I see Hon. Scott laughing- I know why you are laughing. I will be brief.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Our people earn their livelihoods and send their children to school, hospitals and so on from these animals.

Madam Speaker, my last and most important remark is that all of us should realise the importance of the rules that govern the looking after of these animals. Once again, Hon. Milupi, I thank you for raising this important question.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I will do everything in the power of the Office of the Vice President to answer your question in practical terms.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, the floods are unprecedented. The Government says they are in a position to deal with the problem, but it is seems they have not fully comprehended its magnitude. In my constituency, in the Bangweulu Swamps, for example, all the agricultural produce on the islands has been decimated by the floods. Even the rats from the Eastern Province have moved to Luapula to terrorise the people because a lot of areas are flooded.

Is the Government in a position to deal with this problem that is affecting most of the country without probably declaring it a national disaster so that adequate resources are mobilised. We know that from the Yellow Book, the resources allocated to the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit are not enough. Is the Government in a position to deal with this problem?

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You are debating your question.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Dr Machungwa for that important question. As you know, the current subject in this country is floods and if there is any subject the Vice President is conversant with as a result of his involvement in it, it is floods. You will, therefore, forgive me if I give too many details on the problem of floods.

The Government is aware that this year’s rains are unprecedented not only in Zambia, but also north of the country. As you know the Zambezi River has tributaries from Eastern Angola and the North-Western Province. Information reaching our office indicates that there have been no floods of this magnitude in the last fifty years.

We are aware of the fact that floods bring with them a lot of problems. We are also trying to determine the impact and effects of the floods at the same time taking practical steps to help our people.

We, as a Government, are aware of the fact that we may have to call for assistance from our co-operating partners who are already on the ground. A lot of NGOs are working hand in hand with the Office of the Vice-President. A lot of private companies are supporting the efforts of the Office of the Vice-President in this regard on behalf of the Government. A lot of Churches and other religious groups; a lot of Zambian business houses are doing everything they can to assist us.

For the information of the hon. Members of Parliament, this afternoon, we are going to have a big meeting with members of the public and the business community who have voluntarily offered to assist us resolve this problem. The hon. Members of Parliament from the Western Province organised themselves and found some private companies and organisations to assist them in their effort to offer relief to the flood victims and we appreciate this kind of initiative on their part.

 I would like to ask all the hon. Members of Parliament from various provinces to take this kind of initiative. This afternoon, there will be a disaster management meeting at which we will be receiving support from various organisations and churches. I have already sent invitations to the hon. Members from the Western Province to this meeting in order so that they can see the results of their efforts. I would like to say, once again, that the Government is doing all it ca in this regard. I think we must realise that declaring the floods a disaster is a serious move by the Government and we will only do this once we are satisfied that it is necessary to do so.

Madam Speaker, I wish, once again, to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Luapula for raising this question. I would like to assure you that we are aware of the fact that the entire country is facing these problems. Your cousins in the Eastern Province are facing similar problems and you people from the lakes are also facing these problems. Therefore, trust your Government. It will do its best.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hamir (Chitambo): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out how many districts have received relief food from the Vice-President’s office and whether there are any plans to send 4 x 4 vehicles to areas where there are heavy rains.

The Vice-President: Madam Speaker, I may not have picked the second part of the question very well. The first question was on how many districts in the country have received relief food. Did I hear you right? I would like to thank you Hon. Hamir for your illustrious efforts on behalf of the people who elected you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I would like them to hear the Vice-President’s office loud and clear that one of our most committed young Members of Parliament is Hon. Hamir, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: … to a point where the Vice-President has complained because he is inundated with correspondence relating to his constituency on a daily basis.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: I hope you will be back here after the next election because of your efforts.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Now, the question is …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … how many districts require relief food? The information we received earlier indicated that there were twenty-one districts that required relief food, but half way we found out that it was literally every district in the country that had been affected by the floods. Therefore, we can say that almost every province has received some relief food. I know that most of the valleys along the Zambezi River from the North-Western Province to the Southern Province are receiving relief food; most of the valleys along the Luangwa River from Chama all the way to Feira are receiving relief food; and most of the people in the other valleys are receiving relief food. To the best of its ability, the Government is aware of its responsibility. If possible, we would like to increase this support, but we realised that the budget requirements cannot allow us to do as much as we would like, but we are planning for this. I can assure you that your constituency will be one of those the Vice-President’s office will not forget to support, if there is any need. Please, do not hesitate to knock at the doors of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). If you are not well received then come to the Vice-President himself, after all, he is your colleague and brother here in the House.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Thank you, Mr Speaker, Sir, Mr Speaker Madam …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I am sorry I have to apologise.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I am in a hurry, Madam Speaker. I would like to find out what measures have been put in place by the Government in order to correct the impression that has been created in the minds of the electorate, civil society and the media vis-à-vis the role of Members of Parliament in developing their constituencies. I say so because people think that Members of Parliament have to get loans in order to develop their constituencies and they have to find their own money in order to develop the constituency. I am trying to find out what information and advice the Government has to give to the electorate in order to correct the misimpression that has been created.

The Vice-President: I would like to assure all Members of Parliament that having been a Member of Parliament of a constituency; I know the problems you are facing. I would like to state that constituencies are not supposed to be developed from the pockets of Members of Parliament, but all constituencies of all political parties must be developed with the assistance of the Government. This one is, perhaps, the briefest answer I can give and I hope Dr Scott is happy now that I have given a short answer to the question.

Laughter

The Vice-President: I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Laughter 
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QUESTIONS

DECONGESTION OF HEAVY TRAFFIC IN LUSAKA

346. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport what plans the Government had to decongest the heavy traffic on roads leading to the central business District of Lusaka.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Madam Speaker, in order to decongest the heavy traffic on roads leading to the central business District of Lusaka, the Government intends to do the following:

(a) Establish link roads from Lusaka’s main roads to by pass the city centre. Considerable progress has been made in this regard between the Road Development Agency (RDA), the Lusaka City Council and other stakeholders in identifying routes that avoid passing through the city centre. For example, Kasangula Road in Roma has been rehabilitated to encourage traffic flow between the Great East and Great North roads.

(b) Plans to have the Njanji Commuter Railway Line revived and leased/concessioned to private entrepreneurs. The railway line that runs from George Compound is to be extended to pass through town, Woodlands, Chainda, Chelstone, Kabanana, Mandevu, Chingwele, Lilanda and back to George Compound. This project involves firstly rehabilitating the existing railway infrastructure from George Compound to Chilenje before extending it to the mentioned townships.

The introduction of private participation in the management of Njanji Commuter will require financial resources to rehabilitate the Njanji infrastructure to an acceptable standard.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, the traffic congestion and resultant delays in conducting business have a very negative impact on the nation’s economic development. The Government has given a standard answer for the last five years. When shall we see tangible development in this very serious issue?

Mr Mubika: In my response, I mentioned that the project had already started. For example, works have begun on Kasangula Road that passes through Roma. I am ready to take the hon. Member of Parliament on site to see for himself.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister be specific. The Njanji Commuter was a subject of a motion in this House three months ago. We are expecting definitive action on this. Can he say how far it has actually gone beyond day dreaming, because I certainly have not seen any action despite being a member of the Lusaka City Council?

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, the motion that was brought to this House is non-binding.

I thank you, Madam.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government is thinking of rehabilitating Zambezi Road, as there is a hotel to be put up along that road that will employ more than 2,000 Zambians.

Madam Deputy Speaker: That question sounds different unless the hon. Minister has an answer.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, that is a new question.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, the issue of ring roads was raised five years ago. Can the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport tell us whether by the end of this year, the construction of ring roads will have begun?

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, I have already answered that the roads are being constructed.

Interruptions

Mr Mubika: Kasangula road is a ring road.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not debate from your seats.

Interruptions

Mr Mubika: Chitanda is a ring road and the construction is in progress.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, as a result of the pressure from the people to have ring roads in Lusaka, last year, there was an allocation of K5,450 billion meant for two ring roads. One that links Lilayi or Kafue Road at Lilayi in Chilimbulu Road and the other that links Kamwala Trading area to Kafue Road to decongest, particularly, the Kafue Roundabout. None of those roads have been constructed to date, and yet there was an allocation of K5,450 million in the Budget.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask your question.

Mr Lubinda: With the fact that money was allocated and not spent, can the hon. Minister show us where the money for the roads is in this year’s Budget because it is missing. How then can he say they are working on the roads?

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, The money was not released, but this year it appears under the Road Development Agency (RDA) in the Budget. It will be utilised this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, the traffic situation in Lusaka is worsening and there will be more vehicles as we go along. Constructing ring roads will not really solve the problem of traffic congestion in Lusaka. For example, there is a lot of congestion around the Intercity Bus Terminus.

Is the Government not thinking of more radical approaches to solving this problem such as constructing tunnels or overpasses. We need to think ahead and resolve this matter ultimately, rather than make cosmetic changes.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, the Government is in the process of consulting other stakeholders. To that effect, you will see the results soon.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport said that the commuter railway line was to be repaired. Is he aware that part of the line he is talking about has been cannibalised, but no efforts have been made to repair it? What is he doing about this? He has not surrendered it to the concessionaire and the Zambia Railways is not working.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Do not debate.

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, I mentioned that we were going to rehabilitate the railway line. Do not worry. It will be in operation in the next few months.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, we were informed by the hon. Deputy Minister of Works and Supply in this House, two weeks ago, that the Government was considering moving the capital city of Lusaka to some other area. If that is the intention of the Government, why should they create ring roads in a city which they are relocating?

Laughter

Mr Mubika: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Monze, who is my personal lawyer.

Laughter

Mr Mubika: The hon. Minister of Works and Supply is in a better position to explain that because I am not aware of it.

347. Mr Sejani asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives when the Co-operative Bank would be re-opened.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Madam Speaker, the Co-operative Bank will be re-opened as soon as the Zambia Co-operative Federation (ZCF) and other stakeholders mobilise financial resources for the recapitalisation of the bank. Mobilisation of funds is done through member contributions, savings currently held in the closed bank, and the balance of the Government debt to the Zamia Co-operative Federation.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, this has also been a standard answer in the past ten years.

Laughter

Mr Sejani: In the absence of a land bank and given the limited reach of the Fertiliser Support Programme, the great majority of our farmers have no access to agricultural credit. How does the Government expect small-scale farmers to go about their agricultural activities without credit?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kapita): Madam Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Mapatizya for that very important question. Yes, the Co-operative Bank has been closed for over ten years, …

Mr Muntanga: Aah, twelve years!

Laughter

Mr Kapita: …but the bank can only re-open when it has re-organised itself and mobilised the required amount of capital.  It is in the process of doing this. We, as a Government, also owe the bank some money. We owed it K60 billion originally, but have been paying. Therefore, at the moment, we owe the bank K40 billion only. We have told the bank to put its house in order before we can give it money that will enable it re-open. The members of the Board of Directors will have to respect the assets of the members and behave like proper business people. As soon as there is a credible board in place, the Government will definitely re-open the bank.

Secondly, Madam Speaker, I am aware that we do not have another bank or lending institution to supply credit to small-scale farmers. The Fertiliser Support Programme is supplying 25 per cent of fertiliser to the farmers, but that is not enough. We, as a responsible Government, are actively looking at possible ways of introducing a lending institution that is not owned by the Government. If it is owned by the Government, it will go bankrupt because farmers will not pay back their credit.

I have said in this august House that as a ministry, we are investigating the concept that is being used in Brazil, the Philippines and Ghana and I hope when His Honour the Vice-President goes to Ghana, he will carry this message for me. We are investigating the concept of a rural bank. This means that every district, once this is accepted, is going to have a rural bank that has no connection with the next district. For example, if the Kalomo Rural Bank, which Hon. Muntanga will borrow from, goes bankrupt, he will not borrow from another rural bank and the same goes for the hon. Member for Choma who will be borrowing from Choma Rural Bank. We are looking at means and ways of giving farmers some kind of credit. In any case, I have to bring to the attention of this august House the new Agricultural Credit Act that is going to enable us put in place a new lending system

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Minister has talked about the Co-operative Bank and the actual measures being undertaken. The hon. Minister has talked about the new bank to be set up that the former hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives talked about for three years continuously. When will this actually take root other than simply talking about it, and yet it and never happens?

Mr Kapita: Madam Speaker, that is another very good question from the hon. Member for Kalomo Constituency. I would like to say that the New Deal Administration is not a talking box. It is an action-oriented Government. We fulfill what we promise,…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapita: …but we do not want to do it haphazardly, as it happened when we were privatising companies in this country. We want to consider every aspect so that we know when we establish this bank, it is going to work. Please, just give us a bit of time. We will be home. We do not want to be doing things haphazardly.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell this august House what measures the Government has put in place to pursue debtors, including the Government who owe the defunct Co-operative Bank huge sums of money. In fact, some of the people who abused the resources of this bank are still in our midst.

Could the hon. Minister be kind enough to tell this august House.

Mr Kapita: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Sinazongwe for a very good question. Yes, I would like to confirm that some politicians owe the Co-operative Bank. They also owe the Food Reserve Agency. Unfortunately, most of the main debtors of the Co-operative Bank and Food Reserve Agency are in this House. As I mentioned about three or four weeks ago, the Food Reserve Agency, like the Co-operative Bank, has asked me as Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to help them collect this money. I have been sitting with them to look at the names of debtors. Some of the names are for people in this august House. I am coming after you. I have said that I want the Co-operative Bank …

Interruptions

Mr Kapita: ... to put its house in order. This means that I want to them to follow up the hon. Members and all the politicians so that they pay to the last ngwee. I will do this.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, is the hon. Minister in a position to state how much the Government still owes the defunct bank before they think of re-opening another one?

Madam Speaker: I thought that question was answered.

We can go to the next item on the Order Paper, please.

__________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairman, as a result of the Budget which I presented to this House on 9th February, 2007, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures which I will outline in the Committee.

VALUE ADDED TAX

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to:

(a) revise the provisions of the Act relating to sole proprietorships;

(b) provide for requirements in respect of proof of disbursements; and

(c) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

The purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce changes that were announced in my Budget Speech on 9th February, 2007.

Mr Chairman, I wish to thank the House for accepting my motion.

I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

INCOME TAX ACT

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

(a) increase the threshold of exempt income from three million eight hundred and forty thousand kwacha per annum to six million kwacha per annum;

(b) increase the tax credit applicable to persons with disabilities from thirty-six thousand kwacha per annum to seventy-two thousand kwacha per annum;

(c) increase the exempt portion of terminal benefits from ten million kwacha to thirty million kwacha;

(d) increase the allowable pension contribution from fifteen thousand kwacha per month to sixty thousand kwacha per month or fifteen per centum of one’s salary, whichever is less;

(e) increase the corporate tax rate for all mining companies holding large-scale mining licences and mining base metals from twenty-five per centum to thirty per centum;

(f) provide for incentives for a business enterprise operating in the priority sectors declared under the Zambia Development Agency Act of 2006;

(g) introduce an advance tax on import at three per centum; and

(h) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to introduce changes that are announced in my Budget Speech, on 9th February, 2007.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairman, much as I support the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to introduce these amendments to the Income Tax Act, I choose to pick specific areas of concern. This is under 2 (b) where t hon. Minister refers to the increase in tax credit applicable to persons with disabilities from K36,000 to K72,000 per annum.

I wonder if this is in excess or it is on top of the K500,000 they are, ordinarily, entitled to. If it is, I still think it is inadequate. I thought I should state this fact.

May I go to 2 (d) which says, increase the allowable pension contribution from fifteen thousand kwacha per month to sixty thousand kwacha per month or fifteen per centum of one’s salary, whichever is less. I believe you need to reconsider this because the first K500,000 is tax free. Now, if you say 15 per cent, for example, …

The Chairman: Order! I would like to advise the House that the details will be discussed once the Bill is before the House. As for now, we can reserve our detailed discussions to a later stage.

Is there any further debate in view of that guidance?

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, my motion is that it is expedient to introduce a Bill that will come before the House. That is all I am seeking from this House. From the way the majority of the hon. Members have kept quiet, I am grateful that they have accepted that it is expedient.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

CUSTOMS AND EXCISE ACT

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to-

(a) reduce excise duty on electricity;

(b) increase excise duty on clear beer;

(c) introduce specific customs and excise duty rates on certain products;

(d) revise the rates of customs and excise duty payable on certain goods;

(e) align the First Schedule (tariff) to the 2007 Harmonised and Coding and Description System of the World Customs Organisation; and

(f) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this Bill is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 9th February, 2007.

Mr Chairman, I am indebted to the House for the unanimous support and I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.

MINES AND MINERALS ACT

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Mines and Minerals Act so as to-

(a) revise the provision of section nine so as to subject the provisions in a development agreement to the law;

(b) provide for the exclusion of fiscal terms from a development agreement;

(c) clarify the provisions of section ninety-seven so that the reliefs from customs and excise duties which apply to holders of mining rights do not extend to contractors and subcontractors;

(d) increase the mineral royalty on base metals from zero point six per centum (0.6%) gross value to three per centum (3%) gross value;

(e) provide for the grant of a mineral processing licence to a person involved solely in mineral processing operations; and

(f) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Mr Chairman, the purpose of this motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Mines and Minerals Act so as to introduce changes I announced in my budget speech of 9th February, 2007.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.
_____

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

Resolutions reported.

Report adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Madam Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

______

BILLS

FIRST READING

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2007

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled an Act to amend the Value Added Tax Act, National Assembly Bill No. 4 of 2007.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 16th March, 2007.

 Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2007

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I beg to present A Bill to amend the Income Tax Act, National Assembly Bill No. 5, 2007.

I thank you, Madam.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The Committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 16th March, 2007.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the Committee.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXERCISE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2007

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill to amend the Customs and Exercise Bill, 2007.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House by Friday, 16th March, 2007.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

Thank you.

THE MINES AND MINERALS (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2007

Mr Magande:  Madam Speaker, I beg to present a Bill to amend the Mines and Minerals Bill, 2007.

Madam Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The committee is required to submit its report on the Bill to the House on Friday, 16th March, 2007.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

Thank you.
______{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission – Headquarters – K32,411,863,130).

(Consideration resumed)

The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Chairperson, once again, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up the debate on the Electoral Commission’s Head.

I would like to thank my hon. Colleagues who participated in the debate and clearly showed their appreciation for the work of the ECZ.

I would like to thank the Zambian people for being the envy of the rest of Africa in their conduct during the elections. The just ended elections show that Zambians appreciate our democracy and are prepared to nurture it. This is the reason we are in this House, conducting the business of the House in a harmonious manner.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for giving us adequate funding for the elections. These were the first elections we have held which were fully funded from our own finances. I would like to thank the workers led by the Electoral Commission itself in the manner in which they conducted the elections, producing acceptable results.

Mr Chairman, there is not much to say except to ask all hon. Members to support our request for funding for this very important commission in the conduct of democracy.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 06 − (Public Service Commission − Office of the President −K3,489,017,984)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission.

Sir, the Public Service Commission is established under Section 7 (a) of the Service Commission Act No. 24 of 1991. Sections 13 (6) and 21 of the same Act empower the Commission to make, with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia, Regulations regarding its operational procedures, and/or confer powers or impose duties  on any other authority of the Government for the purposes of discharging its functions.

Mr Chairman, the work of the Commission is guided by the following Mission Statement:

‘To safeguard the impartiality and integrity of appointments and promotions in the public service to ensure that this is based on merit and free from political patronage or pressure.’

Sir, the functions of the Commission are prescribed under Section 9 (3) of the Service Commission Act as follows:

(a) to make appointments to any office in the Civil Service;

(b) to make appointments on probation, confirmation in appointments, promotions, retirements and transfers in the civil service;

(c) to exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in the established civil service posts and remove any person from such offices;

(d) to prescribe polices and procedures for employment in the Public Service;

(e) to provide advice to the President on policies and procedures for employment and for the conduct and discipline of officers in the Public Service;

(f) to act as an appellate body of the Public Service;

(g) to implement and review the rules, policies and procedures for employment and for control and discipline in the Public Service;

(h) to authorise any withholding, reduction, deferment, suspensions of salary increment or pension benefits in the administration of the disciplinary code; and

(i) to prescribe the Disciplinary Code and Procedure for handling offences in the Public Service.

Mr Chairman, the Commission ha during 2006, strived to fulfil its various functions already mentioned above under a very tight budget of K1,404,068,732. The allocation fell far short of enabling the Commission carry out its operations in an efficient and effective manner. A number of programmes planned for the year could therefore, not be implemented because the allocation was not adequate. Only one provincial tour to the Central Province was undertaken against the three that were proposed i.e. Central, Southern and Western provinces. As a result, close to 8,000 cases still remain unattended to in the provinces. During this tour, the Commission dealt with the following number of cases:

 Cases  Number

 Appointment (probation)  292
 Confirmation  410
 Acting Appointment (Administrative Convenience)  39
 Acting Appointment with a view   48
 Promotion   112
 Re-grading  02
 Retirement  166
 Re-appointment into new structure  02
 Transfer  05
 Discipline Reinstatement  01
 Re-appointment on temporary agreement  123
 Total  1,200

Mr Chairman, it is in this view that I present …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

The Chairman: Hon. Members, it is worth reminding each other that when the bell rings, I expect all the Members to be seated on time. When Members come in and they find the Chair seated, it means it is already time up and therefore, it is expedient that you proceed a little faster to your seats. If I stand up, you will be forced to stand where you are. I will give you time to sit.

Hon. Members who were standing rushed to their seats.

Laughter

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, when business was suspended, I was saying that the allocation fell far short of enabling the Commission carry out its operations in an efficient and effective manner. A number of programmes planned for the year could therefore, not be implemented because the allocation was not adequate. As a result, nearly 8,000 cases still remain unattended to in the provinces.

Sir, it is in view of this that I present for this year, a budget request that will not only enable the Commission carry out its routine operations, but also ensure the completion of the new activities. These are; purchase of motor vehicles, purchase of computers and computerisation of the commission’s records and a foreign tour to a selected Commonwealth country.

Mr Chairman, the Commission had proposed last year the purchase of a thirty-two seat bus and 4 x 4 vehicles in order to improve the transport situation, but this was not approved.

It is hoped that this activity will be supported during this year’s Budget. Programmes such as staff welfare and training received little and no support respectively. It is also hoped that these will be supported this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate in support of this Vote.

Mr Chairman, in supporting this Vote, I would like to advise the Government on the salient points which have emerged in the past five years. One of the principle problems we have experienced in the administration of the Public Service is the total breakdown of discipline amongst civil servants probably because of the legacy of the previous Government.

I would like to urge the New Deal Government to re-examine some of the civil servants who are sabotaging its efforts and good work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: You are passing through the goby traps carefully and strategically left behind by the previous administration. Nine thousand pending cases in the whole Republic is not an ordinary matter. This is what we refer to in the corporate world as organised mistakes and crime within the administration.

Mr Chairman, tribalism has been one of the major contribution factors to the degeneration of discipline. It is almost impossible to pick a newspaper in this country now and read it without finding a story of a teacher who has been accused of defiling a child. This culture started from 1991 and we are appealing to the Government to stamp it out because our children are no safe any more. In the past five years, this Government had shown that it has regeneration capacity. It has proved this through the budget it has presented. You should now move on to discipline.

On nepotism, some cases have been sat on by the Public Service Commission, leaving out the culprits. The culprits are out there. Misuse of Government vehicles is the order of the day. Some people use Government vehicles to go hunting and farming and there is no way public resources can be abused this way. I want to reiterate and emphasise that with your capacity, re-organise yourselves and weed out the bad elements that are in your midst in the civil service. They were deliberately left to sabotage and derail your good efforts. We want to move in and do better from the good you are trying to do. We would like to move in and do a better job because that is how governments succeed each other. It should not be us to come in and have a burden of problems which were left since 1991. The culture of indiscipline must be shot down at and totally eradicated in the civil service.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairman, allow me to commend the commissioners who are manning this important institution for having applied themselves fully to the functions pertaining to the institution in spite of the difficulties that they have been experiencing in terms of mobility. Their salaries are nothing to talk about. I would like to emphasise that we Zambians are good at creating institutions, but do not take care of them.

Mr Chairman, when a very important institution such as the Public Service Commission is created, it should be empowered for it to discharge its responsibilities to the best of the ability of the commissioners. It is embarrassing, Sir, to find a distinguished commissioner boarding a bus to report for work and back to his home. What is the point in creating an institution that you cannot take care of? If they want to tour provinces to go and promote and discipline public service workers, they have to look for a vehicle from a different source. Why should we fail to address the plight of our commissioners? These are the challenges that His Honour the Vice-President should address as quickly as possible, otherwise it is as good as having no commissioners.

Mr Chairman, commissioners have been given functions to promote, discipline and even confirm public service workers, but they have not been given sufficient latitude to take action as quickly as possible. This is a challenge which His Honour the Vice- President is facing. The best the Government can do if it cannot look after its own house, is to disband the institution. That is my only advice. Ministers, Deputy Ministers, Permanent Secretaries and other directors drive personal to holder vehicles, but you cannot even buy a minibus for commissioners. They look for lifts to get to work and back. You have to look after your institutions.

Mr Chairman, the fact that you are trying to tap the experience of an officer upon retirement means that you have confidence in your own institution, but that confidence can only be reflected in the care that you provide to the same institution and not by word of mouth.

Mr Chairman, the question of saying we are doing everything possible to address this problem must come to an end. Action must now be taken. We have a good number of public workers in provinces and even Lusaka who have not been promoted or confirmed. It is not the fault of the commissioners, they would like to apply themselves to the task before them, but they are inhibited in one way or the other. They cannot go to all the provinces. They cannot attend to the files and so on simply because they have to queue up for mini-buses to go fro work. By the time they get to work, it is well after 08.00hrs and they can only handle two files.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Kasongo: It is embarrassing. The curriculum vitaes and background of the commissioners show that they are drawn from the civil service and many other sources. They are credible commissioners who can perform their functions to the best of the ability granted that you give them the tools. Action must be taken now.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer!

Mr Kasongo: How many cases of Public Service workers who have worked for twenty years and have not been confirmed are pending? Some of them are confirmed posthumously. When someone dies, you say he was a dedicated person at the burial site. When you look at the file, you will find that the person who has been buried has not even been confirmed in that position.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

The Chairman: Order! Can the hon. Member for Bangweulu address the Chair.

Will he continue, please.

Mr Kasongo: Thank you Mr Chairman. Confirming a person posthumously is an offence. Even those kind words you give at the burial site saying dedicated, an asset and so on will not be taken seriously. That kind of commitment must be seen in how effective …

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: …one must be.

Sir, these are serious issues. Confirming and promoting an officer who has clocked twenty years posthumously is an offence to say the least. It means you are not concerned about that officer. Action must be taken as quickly as possible. I do not subscribe to the notion that civil servants are undisciplined. No, it is because you have made their lives extremely difficult. If you cannot promote me, having served for twenty years, how can I apply myself to the task before me? It is not possible. I am a human being. I can react in one way or the other. If I am not confirmed in my position, it means I cannot even be considered for promotion and I cannot even be considered for training. All opportunities before me will not be taken advantage of.

Mr Mtonga: Zowona.

Mr Kasongo: We have to look at this implication. A person who has worked for twenty years without confirmation cannot even be promoted. That person cannot even be sent for training and so on. That is why we have problems upon retirement if, for example, I worked for twenty years, I am not confirmed and I retire, it means that someone is going to take action to retire me and promote me may be after retirement.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Kasongo: It is a long process. These are issues that we should address as quickly as possible. His Honour the Vice-president, the Civil Service should not politicise this, but allow our professionals to discharge their responsibilities to the best of their abilities. The moment you tell them to work like politicians, you are killing that institution. If they fail to deliver, you cannot complain and say the Civil Service is not able to perform the function before them because you have politicised the same Civil Service. Even in terms of employment, let us try to use the model that was available during the days of President Kaunda. You should not be picking people from the streets simply because they belong to your own grouping at the expense of other people.

Hon. Opposition Member: Family tree.

Mr Kasongo: You should wear a national face. This is a challenge on the part of the Public Service. Those who are supposed to be appointed to the public service should be seen to represent all Zambians. You should not be seen to upgrade certain tribes to the exclusion of others, no. The Civil Service must wear a national face. There is no way you can be promoting the same tribe to dominate the Civil Service. In other countries, such an approach has the potential of bringing civil war. Allow the commissioners to have a free hand in appointing the civil servants from all the tribes of the Republic of Zambia. There is no one tribe that should dominate the Civil Service. If you have to make a count today to find out who is dominating the Civil Service, you will see this for yourself. That is dangerous because what is going to happen is that any President who is going to come to power will appoint his own men and women and so on. That must not be allowed. The Civil Service must continue to serve the Head of State. Who does not want to go to State House? That is why we are retiring these people every year. If, for example, there is a new Head at State House, civil servants are retired and other people are employed and so on, this must stop. The Civil Service must continue to serve who ever is going to take over leadership at State House. They should not be retired. For example, the appointing authority should not be appointing on the basis that since they are in power, they are going to appoint their own men and women. That is dangerous and that is my advice.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Thank you, Mr Chairman, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate.

The Public Service Commission is a very important body for the effective administration of the Public Service especially that it has the responsibility of ensuring that there is efficiency in running our public offices.

Mr Chairman, would you know too that the Public Service Commission is a watch dog acting on behalf of the President? This is why even when they are appointing or promoting a person, they do that on behalf and in the name of the President. They are doing this on behalf of the country. In other words, the Public Service Commission is the body that must have freedom to speak freely to a Secretary to the Cabinet and not compose of people who think they have won the election and then go to tell the Secretary to the Cabinet to begin preparing for …

Hon. Government Member: Inauguration.

Mr Mabenga: ...inauguration. That is wrong. We must leave the Public Service Commission to do its job to the best of its abilities. I am very glad that the Government does not in any way interfere with the operations of the Public Service Commission. I commend what my former Permanent Secretary was saying here because we worked so well together in that ministry.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Mabenga: No, he was not.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: When we look at the operations of the Public Service Commission and the many responsibilities it has to deal with promotions, discipline, discharges and suspensions and so on, I would like to propose what would be best for this commission to operate effectively.

Sir, capacity building is very important in any organisation. I note that in the Yellow Book, on Page 17, under Capacity Building, Staff Training is only allocated K71 million for the whole year. Public Administration only has K33,580,000. I propose that this be revised because if we are going to build capacity in the Public Service Commission, we need more money so that the commission is able to train as much of their cadres as possible. It is important that training is given to every member of staff.

Mr Chairman, with regard to the Public Service Reforms, I see that under Human Resource Placement, there is only K199 million, Monitoring and Evaluation only has K50 million and Finalising Public Service Commission Strategic Plan has K77 million. The strategic plan is a very important project which I feel needs quite a lot of funding because there is drafting and redrafting, writing this and that, moving from one place to  the other and so on. They require a lot of money to ensure that this is achieved for the betterment of this country.

Sir, as regards Monitoring and Evaluation, I want to believe that when the commission is monitoring and evaluating, the commissioners are not doing that from their offices. They should be able to go round because if they do that, they cannot get the best. We have to ensure that they get the best for the commission. I also propose that this amount be adjusted a little higher than this.

The commission has other sister commissions outside this country. Let me first look at the rural and provincial tours. The provincial tours are only allocated K600 million. This amount may only take …

Dr Chituwo interrupted.

Mr Mabenga: My Chairman for health is not doing well here.

Sir, I want to believe K600 million is not enough for the Provincial Tours for our commissioners because they do not need to stay for two days only and then leave. To discuss with the public service workers, they should be, at least, in every district of this country. They should be able to get the views from the workers all over the country. If they stay for one or two days, it is not enough. It is important that this allocation is adjusted higher.

Looking at the allocation for Study Tours, I hope these are not just local study tours, but also international study tours. If, indeed, there is some segment of international study tours, K250 million is nothing. If it is only for local study tours, I suggest that the study tours be extended to outside the country so that they can go and learn what other commissions are doing and come and help improve the operations of the commission, in particular, and indeed, the public service in general.

Sir, I do hope my submission will be looked at objectively and positively.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Mr Chairman, for us to demand performance from this commission, it is absolutely important that we empower it by giving it the money it has asked for.

However, the concern of many Zambians is that the employment of Permanent Secretaries on three year contracts is detrimental to the performance of jobs by those important Controlling Officers. Once upon a time, Permanent Secretaries were employed on permanent and pensionable conditions of service. They were very secure. As it is now, if a person is employed as a Permanent Secretary, normally on a contract for three years, he or she is not secure. Years fly past. What happens is that this officer spends most of his or her time preparing for his or her future instead of concentrating on the work.

I submit that while it is good for us to fund the commission, we will advise them that it is about time they reverted to the old system. A system of employing Permanent Secretaries on contracts discourages officers who have worked in the civil service for a long time and who had been looking forward to being promoted to the position of Permanent Secretary. It is for this reason that indiscipline has crept into the Civil Service. We cannot deny this fact; indiscipline is there. These days we have Permanent Secretaries who do not know the General Orders nor understand the financial regulations since they are plucked from outside the Civil Service because of the connections they have. This tendency, I submit, must come to an end.

Mr Chairman, there is also the problem of general employment as opposed to one position. It is now fashionable for relatives of people who are well positioned to get jobs in the civil service. The tendency of looking at the face of an applicant should come to an end. Let us look at the capacity and the qualifications of an applicant. The civil service should not be a damping ground for ill-qualified people. In other countries, it is difficult to join the civil service because they recruit on merit. Gone are the days when the public service would engage incompetent people.

In supporting the measures, I would like to submit that since this is a New Deal Government; let them introduce a New Deal Culture in the civil service.

Sir, with regard to the composition of the Public Service Commission, are we sure that the people manning the Public Service Commission are adequately qualified to hold those positions? Are we not employing retired people of sixty years and above? When shall we look at young and vibrant men and women who can bring life to the Public Service Commission? The tendency of late, is to use the Public Service Commission as a damping ground for people who have failed elsewhere and retired. Since they retire with nothing, we have to given them jobs so that they have a source of livelihood. That should not be the practice.

Mr Chairman, we know that the Civil Service is the engine of the economy. The tendency to repair an engine with second hand spare parts cannot drive the economy in the right direction.

Mr Chairman, indiscipline in the Civil Service is rampant for the simple reason that it takes ages to dispose of disciplinary cases. Why is this so? This is because these people are not working to our expectation. My appeal is that with the funding we have given them, they should, please, redouble their effort because we are funding them for the simple reason that we demand performance from them.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Tetamashimba): Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the Public Service Commission.

I would like to support the Vote by commending the Chairperson of the Commission who is a professional and his Permanent Secretary in the Management Division who is another experienced professional who has been in many institutions, including the mines and banks.

Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the commission specifically for Programme 5 –Staff Training and Public Administration which has not been taking place for a number of years, including Programme 7 under the same Head which is showing that they had no computers and, therefore, it was difficult for them to get information as quickly as the hon. Members of the House would want.

I am more than pleased, Mr Chairman, that with Programme 11 on Staff Welfare, the figure has increased this time seven or so times what was allocated last year. The allocation for Human Resource Placement was K11 million last year and the Government has this year given them K199 million.

On the same page, Mr Chairman, in terms of tours, although we have increased by almost 50 per cent, I will agree that there is a need for more money, but there are many sectors to be catered for. However, I believe our commission will do better than they did previously when they did not have any provision in terms of study tours which has been provided for in this year’s Budget with an allocation of K250 million.

Mr Chairman, I would like to comment on some of the issues that have been raised by my colleagues, especially from your left. I want to thank the hon. Member for Bangweulu for stating that the New Deal Government is elevating people to positions on tribal grounds. I agree with this because some tribes were up there while others were trampled on. The Government this time is upgrading those who were at the bottom so that they can be at the same level. I am very happy for that statement which came from the hon. Member of the House who is very experienced. I thank him for this.

Mr Chairman, I want to say that although many people just want to talk about appointments, the President has never dreamed of appointing anybody to any position. Even His Honour the Vice-President was not just appointed from the blues. He knew the man that is why he appointed him to this position.

The same applies to the Civil Service. The Chairperson for the Civil Service Commission is an experienced person who knows how the Civil Service works. Surely, you cannot appoint someone who has not worked in the Civil Service to this position. Hon. Members said they wanted young men to be commissioners, surely, can you just appoint someone who is still looking forward to being  Permanent Secretary or Secretary to the Cabinet to the position of commissioner. I think it is just right that the people who have had a lot of experience in the Public Service are given a chance to continue serving the people in their experienced capacity. We should not run away from this fact because that is the only way we can have experienced people who can tell others that this is the way things must be done.

You will agree with me that even if His Excellency the President appoints the civil servants and Chairman of the Commission, he does not do that all alone. Names are brought before him and some of them are brought before to this House, for example, Judges. The President does not dream of somebody to be appointed as a Judge. The names pass through the Judicial Service Commission and are proposed to His Excellency the President who brings the names here. The President does not get, for example, five names for five positions in the Judicial Service Commission and he leaves some, no. He brings the names as recommended by the Public Service Commission to this House for the final decision. After this, his job is to swear them in. The current procedure must continue.

I heard one of my colleagues on your left state that lately, people are appointed from nowhere. I was a young person, of course, when President. Kaunda was in Government. He was making appointments of Permanent Secretaries and firing them. Hon. Kasongo will agree with me. Starting from the time of independence, people were appointed as Permanent Secretaries by one man and he would fire them when they were wrong. Nobody can stand in this House and say that it was better in some Government before. There was never a time when there was this perception of a person just rising from Director and the position of Permanent Secretary. The President always had names submitted to him either by the Secretary to the Cabinet and others and then he would appoint and disappoint them when they went wrong.

If it is proved that one is corrupt; can he or she still keep their job? The answer is no. This system must continue, but what we must know is that as at now, you cannot accuse, for example, the Executive of having appointed certain people from one tribe. I challenge my colleagues to go back to the other two former Presidents and see who the majority of Ministers and Deputy Ministers came from. You will discover that some of my colleagues who may be saying that the current Government is promoting people from their province would be ashamed if you brought the list here. You will discover that in the years before 2002, more than half the Cabinet came from one tribe where the President came from and this is true. You can spare some time and check for the records. They are available, but this President has no more than one Lenje in his Cabinet.

Mr Chairman, let us be factual. He is better than those who wanted to have lists of names of people to be dropped from their positions soon after the inauguration. He is much better than such leaders. Having gone …

Mr Shakafuswa whispered to Hon. Tetamashimba.

Mr Tetamashimba: Having …

The Chairman: Order!

The atmosphere so far has been very good. The Chair is getting worried with the direction your debate is taking, particularly with you drawing closer to the Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Can you continue.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairman, thank you very much. You have a very sharp eye. It shows that the Chair is always following the debates in the House.

Sir, I would like to put on record that there is no incompetence in the Civil Service. If the hon. Members of Parliament know of anybody who is incompetent, surely, we must not just wait for this time to say this person is not doing well. The Chairman of the Public Service Commission is not incompetent, not even his own Permanent Secretary and the staff. Maybe, it was because of the computerised system in use that is some people were not being confirmed.

However, both the former Permanent Secretary and Minister of State in President Dr. Kaunda’s Government can confirm that even when Hon. Mabenga was the top civil servant, some people could not be confirmed even at the time when he was leaving to join politics. This is the procedure in the Public Service.

So, I would like my colleagues on your left to support this vote, including our former hard working Inspector-General who also left others not confirmed by the time he was leaving. It is a procedure that we must agree to improve upon by allocating more money to this commission, and that is the only way we are going to benefit as elected leaders of this country.

Mr Chairman, with these few words, I would like to say that this Government, through its Public Service Commission and the Chairman, has been promoting people on merit. Through its hard working Chairman and Permanent Secretary, every Zambian has had a share. It is only under this Government where you can even find the majority of the Permanent Secretaries do not come from the province where the President comes from. There is evidence that in the past the majority of Permanent Secretaries came from the President’s province. This is the only Government that is not doing this. That is why we intend to run this country for many with those that we believe to be allies.

I thank you Sir.

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Chairman, I just want to bring on board a few points concerning this particular measure of the Budget.

Firstly, let us correct the impression that the Public Service Commission appoints ministers and balances them in terms of tribe. That was a waste of time. It is not true, as it is the business of the President.

The Public Service Commission appoints continuing service of the people. Political Governments can come and go, but public servants must continue to run the Government.

I am worried for one thing; generalising the First, Second and now the Third Republics by young people such as Hon. Tetamashimba who have never been close to Government and grading former Presidents in terms of their capacity to perform. He has the capacity only to praise the current President who has given him a job. That is not fair politics.

Mr Tetamashimba: I never said that.

Mr Mtonga: Let us be mature and make sure that we grade with a capacity to do so.

Mr Chairman, when I look at these measures, I have not seen a thrust of the reform programme and that is what I was expecting to hear from people like Hon. Tetamashimba to inform this House and through this House the nation what the last five years or so have done in terms of reforming the Public Service Commission and the Public Service itself which the commission runs. We have not heard anything about that programme, the elements of it and what we are achieving.

On the contrary, I would like to buttress the point made by Hon. Chifumu Banda, SC. that the Civil Service now is in disarray because the system seems to have broken down.

Firstly, there are so many Permanent Secretaries that have been fired over the last years, hence the need to question the process used to appoint these Permanent Secretaries who are heads of the Civil Service in their respective ministries. I expected to set a good example.

You now have for example, the whole Ministry of Lands paralysed because the most senior people are not there. What went wrong? We expect the Public Service Commission to address these problems. What wrong things are Permanent Secretaries doing, what culture of work, as my colleague, Hon. Chifumu Banda stated, what MMD culture of work are these public service new deal bringing in? That is the kind of thing that we would want to hear. We do not want to hear stories about the tribal balancing of President Kaunda, Chiluba and the current one because it has nothing to do with the commission.

I have been looking at the measures and I see Staff Training in the Yellow Book, but I do not see Staff Recruitment as an activity, how is that being taken care of? We have been informed that there are huge recruitments to be done in the ministries, but are in default in terms of fulfilling their establishment. However, among the measures that have been listed, there is nothing to do with recruitment in the Public Service.

There is also nothing to show that this commission will now be busier assessing people annually and confirming them. I do not see the activity on the Budget that is taking care of this. Perhaps, I did not read the activity clearly, but I hope the main thrust of the allocation of these funds is to make sure that the commission gets over its problems and if they are absent here, then I get worried.

We have in this House, complained for example, about recruiting District Commissioners. It is this body that is supposed to do the initial work even with the permission of the President, but they have to do their homework. I cannot see any measure here that would assure us that there would be adequate advertisements and that the recruitment will be done publicly and so on.

The other issue that I would like to mention is that of Civil Service examinations. This has been spoken about in this room and I do recall the Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning referring to a question asked in the House about people who were not confirmed for many years. We were told that for some of them never sat for the civil service examinations. Where is this going to be taken care of? I see no measure here for conducting annual examinations to access civil servants before they are upgraded etc.

It is obvious that we are handling the commission in a non-professional manner and not in the way professional elements must be handled. We cannot go via propaganda and political popularity to handle this commission. We need to be informed correctly.

Mr Chairman, with these words, I thank you for the opportunity.

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, once again, I would like to thank all hon. Members for supporting our request for funding the Public Service Commission. Hon. Members have given on how to improve the Civil Service through the Public Service Commission.

I am right in saying the vast majority of those that have spoken, have supported this budget. They have hastened to give some timely advice with regard to the discipline in the Civil Service, as at now. I would like to say that the Government is listening as it is reputed for this. They have commented on the 8,000 or more cases which have not been attended to. These are cases of indiscipline that need to be settled or have not been attended to.

They have spoken against tribalism in the Civil Service and the Teaching Service. They have requested the Government to try hard and stamp out indiscipline in the Civil Service.

The Public Service Commission needs to be supported so that we can perform better. Everyone knows that the commissioners do not have adequate transport. They do not have all that it takes for them to work efficiently and effectively.

Therefore, in their support for this budget, they have suggested that we should take care of that. Some have gone to the extent of suggesting an increment in the allocation. I would like to refer to a few of the hon. Members that have spoken and to underline some of their main points.

Hon. Kasongo is an experienced civil servant and politician who must know what he is talking about. These institutions are created with the support from the Government for them to perform well in the tasks for which they are created. He bemoaned the plight of transport for commissioners. He said some of them have been seen trying to catch a bus in order to get to work. Obviously, you cannot expect good performance from such a senior person who is handicapped in the basic need of transport.

He went on to say that he would like to see that civil servants adhere to the main principles of the Civil Service by being fair and honest and not to be indiscipline. I would like to thank him for that.

Hon. Mabenge, in supporting …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … Mabenga, my Chairman! That was a slip of the tongue. He is not even here to argue. Oh, he is there.

Mr Mabenga: It is alright, Sir.

The Vice-President: Excuse me.

In fact, he is proposing that more money be given to the Public Service Commission. We need to support this institution so that it carries out its work efficiently.

The hon. Member for Chasefu, my brother, Mr C. K. Banda said that for us to demand performance from the Public Service Commission, we should fund this institution properly. He demanded that the Civil Service should return to the old system where Permanent Secretaries were employed on permanent and pensionable conditions in order to work efficiently rather than worry about their future all the time. As a result, they find themselves doing something they should not and get into problems as far as discipline and corruption is concerned.

Sir, nepotism has been roundly condemned by everyone and I am sure the Government agrees with this. That is why the Government is vigilant in ensuring that civil servants perform to the satisfaction of the nation.

With regard to Hon. Tetamashimba’s contribution, I always describe him as one whom you like or do not like, but you would listen to him.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Every time he stands up, …

Laughter

The Vice-President: … I watch this House and everyone keeps quiet to listen to him. So, he must be saying something interesting for all of us to pay so much attention. He supported the provisions for the Public Service Commission that are not even adequate. He pointed out that the selection of Public Service Commissioners, as made by His Excellency the President, are done based on consultations and on serious analysis of the person that he is appointing.

Mr Tetamashimba: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The appointments are not made by him alone, but various stakeholders are always involved so that the selection is correct and I agree with him. The President has shown us all, without referring to the other previous presidents in any way that he takes care of tribal balancing of the people in this country. The problem is that if tribalism is allowed to prevail in any institution, particularly, in the Civil Service, inefficiency will come in.

Mr Tetamashimba: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: This is because the bright people, the efficient people, the educated people or the people suitable for the high positions in the Civil Service are not found in one place or one tribe. They are found all over Zambia. It is, therefore, necessary and prudent that appointments are made based on merit and merit alone.

Sir, Hon. Mtonga, is also a very experienced civil servant who rose to the position of Inspector-General (IG) of this country. He has advised us to be calm in debating this issue in order to ensure that we make correct decisions. The Civil Service should address the issues seriously.

I would like to thank you all for the support.  The allocation for the Public Service Commission in this year’s Budget, are sufficient. We plead with you hon. Members to agree to these figures without much appeal so that we can proceed to the major issues in the budget which need to be attended to as quickly as possible so that the programmes of work in the country begin.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/01 – (Office of the Auditor General – K30,979,454,402)

The Vice-President: Mr Chairman, sorry for the consultations that are going on. As you know, I am new in this position and I was informed that this will be read by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, but it has come back to me. It is my duty and I am please and honoured to make a statement.

The Auditor-General, whose office is a public one, is charged with the responsibility of promoting good governance, accountability and transparency in the utilisation of public resources. It is a duty of the Auditor-General to audit and give an assurance that all the revenues are collected and brought to account and that the moneys expended have been applied for the purposes for which they were appropriated and that expenditure conforms to the authority that governs it.

Mr Chairman, the principle functions, responsibilities and authority functions of the Auditor-General are set out in Article 2 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Finance Act and the Public Audit Act, Cap 378 of the laws of Zambia. These statutes provide that the Auditor-General shall audit public accounts, accounts of statutory corporations and private institutions that receive Government’s subventions, including donor-funded projects. In this respect, the Auditor-General plays a major role in assisting the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and ultimately Parliament to exercise its oversight role.

Mr Chairman, the mission statement of the office of the Auditor-General is:

“to provide quality audit services to the Government and other institutions in order to promote accountability, and value for money in the management of public funds and other resources for the benefit of society.”

In order to operationalise the mission statement, the goal of the office has been to enhance accountability in the collection and utilisation of public funds and other resources in order to contribute to sustainable development.

Mr Chairman, in order to increase capacity to meet the above challenges, the Government of the republic of Zambia entered into an agreement with the Government of the Kingdom of Norway, in which the office of the Auditor-General of Zambia and the office of the Auditor-General of Norway agreed to co-operate in the restructuring and institutional development of the office under the Restructuring and Institutional Development Project (RIDP). However, it is worth noting that the NORAD Aid the office has been receiving since 1996 came to an end on 31st December, 2005. This means that the programmes that this aid was giving to the office are not yet completed and need to be taken care of in this Budget. These include capacity building, audit quality, methodology, IT, infrastructure, organisational restructuring and enhancement of OAG independence.

Mr Chairman, currently the Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability Reform Programme (PEMFAR) which is being undertaken by the Government of the Republic of Zambia as a basis for achieving economic growth and poverty reduction under the Public Sector Reform Strategy had provided US$7.9 million for the period 2005 to 2009 through which the office will be enabled to construct an extension of the offices at the headquarters and the five new provincial audit offices as well as procure motor vehicles during this period.

Mr Chairman, although the Auditor-General is required to audit all ministries and departments, all institutions, including private ones receiving Government subvention, the office has not been able to cover all these to due to resource constraints. You may wish to know that for the 2007, the office had proposed the Budget of K42,849,608,280 to audit the Government Accounts for 2006. This was done in line with the Fifth National Development (FNDP) and vision 2030. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning however, reduced this to K30,979,454,402 and this was not enough for the office. Therefore, there is a need for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to look at the office favourably when allocating resources. Otherwise, the Government’s aim of promoting accountability and good governance may not be attained.

Mr Chairman, despite the limited financial resources allocated to the office and lack of equipment such as motor vehicles, the office has performed exceptionally well in the discharge of its constitutional mandate. For four years running, the office has been able to produce the Auditor-General’s Report by the 31st December as required by the Constitution. A few years ago, the office was criticised for producing reports late. The office therefore, needs to be commended for this achievement.

Mr Chairman, the Government recognises the vital role the office is playing in the promotion of accountability and transparency. In this regard, in April 2004, Cabinet approved the restructuring of the office and granted among other things, authority to increase the establishment from 250 to 572. In line with this, the Treasury gave authority to the office to recruit officers in phases. 100 officers were recruited in 2005, 100 in 2006 and in 2007. It is expected that another 100 will be recruited and the remainder will be recruited in 2008. At the moment, the establishment has been filled up to 439. This has a Budget implication not only on Personal Emoluments, but also on Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs) and Capital Expenditure.

Sir, during 2007, the office will concentrate on the audit of 2006 Government accounts, focusing mainly on the priority sectors in the FNDP such as agriculture, health, education and among others statutory and value for money, audits and the audit of donor-funded projects and programmes.

 In line with the new structure which has introduced pronounced IT, performance, forensic and investigative audits, activities have been programmed to implement these types of audits on a number of ministries and other clients. It is clear that although the Government has in the past made efforts to ensure growth in the economy and thereby reduce poverty, these objectives have not been fully realised. This is because a good amount of Government financial resources have been misplaced or misappropriated rather than being utilised on programmes aimed at stimulating growth in the economy. The office aims at focusing its audit programmes towards areas that have received a lot of funding for Government expenditure. For example, the office will continue looking at the Public Sector Reform Programme, procurement procedures in the Government and all institutions receiving Government grants, subsidies and achievement levels of donor-funded projects, especially those aimed at poverty reduction. The office will also look at the both domestic and national foreign debt and how it is managed. Apart from the Government ministries and departments, the office has planned to audit a number of statutory bodies.

The strategy will provide the best audit coverage under the given resources and will help enhance accountability in the collection and utilisation of financial resources that will assist Government save money that will in turn be channeled towards programmes aimed at economic growth and consequently reduce poverty and improve the living standard of people. However, these audit programmes can only be achieved through increased resource allocation to the office.

Therefore, I seek the support of this hon. House to pass the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General as you have been doing in the past for budgets of the other offices under the Office of the Vice-President.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.

Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Mr Chairman, may I begin by stating very clearly that the Office of the Auditor-General is very important and that the significance of this office in ensuring transparency and accountability cannot be under played or under estimated.

Sir, I would also like to state that this office, as you are aware, is indeed, authoritatively established by the Constitution of Zambia.

Sir, Article 121 of the Constitution Clause 1, states that the office is a public one. This means members of the public have a stake in the Office of the Auditor-General.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Since they have a stake, they have a right to information on what is going on in respect of the expenditure that the public offices make as approved by this House.

Sir, I also notice that under the same article, the Auditor-General is appointed by the President. If you proceed and look at Clause 6 of Article 121 of the Constitution, it states and I quote:

“In the exercise of his functions under Clauses 2, 3, and 4, the Auditor-General shall not be subject to the direction or control of any other person or authority.”

 Mr Chairman, that is the position of the Constitution. As you are aware, the Constitution of Zambia is sacrosanct. It is very important and we expect leaders in the Government to respect this Constitution.

Mr Chairman, I say so because you have seen the trend and culture where the Office of the Auditor-General is exposed to undue pressure from politicians.  This situation is prevalent mainly in emergent states in Africa. The question is that if the money which we spend to finance mainly public projects is coming from the public, it means that the public pay in the form of direct and indirect taxes. It also means that the public expect nothing less from the Office of the Auditor-General in terms of reporting and making known some of the losses that are reported in public institutions.

Mr Chairman, before I proceed in my debate, I would like to look at some of the publications by a very established organisation – Transparency International – Zambia. The authors of the book called ‘SHOW ME THE MONEY!’ are Edem DJokote and Pamela K. Chama.

Mr Chairman, if you look at pages 59 to 62 of this book, you will establish that in 2002 and 2004, about K404 million was either misapplied or stolen. Approximately, that is U S $90 million. The question is that since these reports are based on the Office of the Auditor-General, to what extent have some of the people who are responsible for the losses of the public money been prosecuted and to what extent does the Office of the Auditor-General participate during the prosecution process of the culprits.

Mr Chairman, if you look at pages 78 and 79 of the same book, there are very interesting observations that are made by the authors. I therefore, intend to put this on record, citing Article eight ‘The Writing on the Wall.’

Mr Chairman, it says and I quote:

“From the foregoing, it is clear that the Auditor-General’s report provides a fairly objective and political basis for investigation into Government Expenditure. However, it does not tell the whole story. One of the main weaknesses of the report is that it does not identify those implicated in the misappropriation and misapplication of public money. Hiding their identities behind a cloak of secrecy does very little to help strengthen their accountability chain as well as the prosecution process.”

The situation is further accentuated by weaknesses in recording keeping by institutions such as the office of the Audit-General and the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Records such as back issues of the Auditor-General’s report, other financial reports and estimates of revenue and expenditure are kept so haphazardly that a lot of vital information is not available.

In the absence of comprehensive information about the state of the nation’s financial accountability and public expenditure management records, it becomes a lot easier for those who manage public money in account for Government spending to sweep their excesses under the carpet. For example, how can one match allocation with expenditure when there no back issues of vital records to refer to?

These weaknesses, notwithstanding the use of Government expenditure at length during the period under review, reveal a bleak picture of the state of public sector management and financial accountability.

Mr Chairman, the report goes on and it talks about the general lack of integrity in the way resources are accounted for. I must state here again, that when you last asked about that quote from that particular book and when you look at the period by which the Auditor-General’s report is expected, of course, according to the Constitution, that is supposed to be presented at least within a twelve year period. The question is, if this year, for instance, we are considering the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the year 2007, the basis of looking at how money was spent is not there, because what we have is a 2005 report and the 2006 report is not there. So, we are not able to tell immediately, as we are considering the budget which ministries did not account for the money properly. Neither are we able to tell which ministries were able to account for the money in accordance with what this House allocated.

Sir, I must submit that, for as long as the culture of trying to tamper with the operations of some of these offices continues, I am afraid we politicians, are not going to effectively offer the leadership in ensuring that when you are in Government, institutions that are helping us implement Government programmes account for the funds effectively so that we can build that confidence in the people that their money is in safe hands. In fact, I must say that the office of the Auditor-General is a people’s watchdog. That is what we can call it. It is a watchdog for the people and indeed, if people are not informed on the measures the Government takes, of course based on the Auditor-General’s report, the people of Zambia are going to lose confidence in the Government.  Even as they contribute the money through the same taxes, they are not going to do so willingly because they know that, as that money is contributed, it will not be put to good use. They expect, as I said in my earlier submission, nothing from public institutions less than what is due to them.

Mr Chairman, if you look at the same political pressure I am talking about under the same Article, much as the Constitution says that the Auditor General will not be subject to the direction or control by any other person or authority, this autonomy in terms of operations is not guaranteed. There is an aspect of value on the part of the appointing authority, in this particular case, the President. When I mention the President, I am not talking about His Excellency the President Mr Mwanawasa, SC, for instance, because this is the mistake that we make.

Mr Chairman, when we are discussing issues of public importance, we tend to mix two issues, individuals and institutions. There is a need to depersonalise some of these issues so that when we are talking about offices, we look at institutions as they are and also to realise that as leaders or politicians, our existence is ephemeral, which simply means that we are there today, but tomorrow we are out of office. Now, the question should be, what kind of legacy do we intend to leave behind and to make sure that what we say matches what we do practically.

Mr Chairman, to say something and to put it into practice is another issue. Whilst the policy of the Government is that of zero tolerance to corruption, we see corrupt practices continue and corrupt practices begin right from our bedrooms. Now what kind of a country do we want to build? What kind of an office of the Auditor General do you want to leave behind to account for the people’s money because it is not our money and we should never treat it as such, because the money comes from the very poor people out there that we seek to serve?

Mr Chairman, as I said, they contribute to the Treasury in different ways. I recall very well during the campaigns at one of the public forum, I tried to explain that actually the money which the Government spends comes from them and that it was not the duty of the public to start building community schools because it is the duty of the Government to build schools. There are many other programmes where communities are expected to contribute, and yet they contribute money on a daily basis. When that was explained to the people, some of them were amazed that they finance the programmes. When the budget is approved, the money is expected to come from the same public and, therefore, we need to realise always that we hold that responsibility not only to our people, but also to God as well and to be genuine in the way we deal with public expenditures and to strengthen watch dog institutions.

Mr Chairman, I know that this House represents this nation’s sovereignty, the House that represents the people’s interests has also a stake in the manner public resources are accounted for through the Public Accounts Committee, but of course their role simply ends at submitting the report, what happens thereafter, we are not involved. As you are aware, we have other law enforcement institutions. In this particular case, I call for the strengthening of partnerships in terms of prosecutions between the Auditor-General‘s office and Law Enforcement Agency so that the role of the Auditor-General does not just end at producing the report. As per the observation in this book, names of people involved must be known. The public must know who has stolen their money. Of course, I know that might be considered a prejudicial, but we have seen this as I said, especially, when it comes to politicians, their names are publicised. So, we expect the civil servants who are involved in misapplication or misappropriations of public funds to be made known.

Mr Chairman, the Office of Auditor-General should also go out and sensitise the people on its roles and responsibilities so that the public can walk as well and observe or identify some of the culprits in the communities they live in. For instance, how can somebody who gets K200,000 construct a big double storey house. If the public can be informed that it is their money they are going to take that personal responsibility as well to report the culprits to the law enforcement agencies. I think that is the only way that resources are going to be adequately accounted for and these watchdog institutions strengthened for the sake of the Zambian public.

The Chairman: Order! Your time is up.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Chairman, for according me the opportunity to debate the vote pertaining to the Auditor-General’s office. First and foremost, I would like to indicate that the Auditor-General’s office is a very critical watchdog institution pertaining to the finances of this country. It is in that light that I support the vote for the Auditor-General’s office. However, I have very strong reservations to make with regard to the way we manage the recommendations and the resolutions of Parliament pertaining to the Auditor-General’s report.

Mr Chairman, for the last five years, I have been a Member of this House and the Auditor-General has made glaring revelations with regard to the finances of this country. A number of very prominent persons have been mentioned in the Auditor-General’s report.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona.

Mr Chairman: Alas, Mr Chairman, nothing tangible has been done to bring the culprits to book. Those persons who have been chewing our money are busy enjoying the benefits of theft.

Mr Chairman: Order! The Chair is not sure whether chewing is a parliamentary word. Can you use a better word?

Can you continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Much obliged for that advice, Mr Chairman. The persons who have been abusing our resources are actually the major beneficiaries, they are enjoying. It is as if it is a benefit to be a theft in this country. Recently, the Head of State and the Minister of Finance and National Planning have revealed to this nation the billions of kwacha that have been stolen from State coffers, but nothing much has been done about these people. It now appears as if to be part of the thieving syndicate is a benefit in the civil service.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Why should we be lamenting as if this Government has no resources to develop this country when in actual fact the resources are there, but there is this clique of individuals who are thriving on stolen public resources. Even the report for 2006 that is to be tabled, still reveals that huge amounts of money have been abused. I will give you an example of Southern Province. The Southern Province under the able leadership of the former hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Mr Sikatana, had the privilege of being accorded finances for the Cattle Restocking Programme. Unfortunately, in 2005, the people of Southern Province did not benefit from the Government programme of cattle restocking because the officials in the provincial ministry diverted K1.5 billion to pay for their phones and travel benefits at the expense of the people of Southern Province who are suffering. Nothing has been done. Those people have enjoyed and have continued enjoying. The people of Southern Province are not going to get the benefit of cattle restocking which was approved by this House.

Sir, we are aware of huge amounts of money that have been paid to contractors who have done nothing. Billions of kwacha every year are spent on road construction. Alas, the work that is being performed by the contractors is mediocre. In certain instances, they have not even done any work, but they have been paid the money. Why should we allow public resources to go to waste when we know the culprits? I will not want to be part and parcel of an institution that allows thefts of public resources. I know that there are lacunas in the law. We must find a law in which if the Drug Enforcement Commission is unable to prosecute, the Auditor-General’s Office, must be given the mandate to prosecute based on the evidence they have. We must create a wing within the Auditor-General’s Office that should prosecute those who have abused Government resources.

It does not make sense to seat here every year, discussing resources that have been abused. A huge percentage of our resources is going into people’s pockets, and yet we are always lamenting that we have no money and appealing to donors to assist us with finances. Donor money is tax payers’ money in the countries where it originates from. Why should we be looking forward to getting tax payers’ money from other countries when we are failing to manage our own resources?

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: There are so many people, even amongst us, who have been mentioned, but nothing has been done. It is high time this House started biting. We must be seen to be ensuring that the laws of this country are upheld. I would like to implore the hon. Minister of Legal Affairs to ensure that if there are lacunas in the law, we cure them. We should not allow a situation where people – I was almost saying chewing – are misusing our money.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: When we are lamenting that we need a K1 billion to develop our constituencies, other people who are so called privileged, are abusing our resources.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Somebody is saying that these people are equivalent to karavinas. Why should we allow such a situation? Let us find a way of dealing with the people who are stealing our money.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the Vote on the Floor.

Firstly, the Office of the Auditor-General with reference to this nation or any other nation, is pivotal.

Let me compare it slightly to a corporate entity. Corporate entities raise money and spend that money to the benefit of shareholders. It is the same also for the country. The country raises money and spends it on behalf of the shareholders who are the citizens. To make sure that money is spent according to the plans, the corporate entity goes to audit. They have internal as well as external auditors. In this comparison, the Auditor-General is essentially the external auditor for the entity known as Zambia Limited.

The budget which we are looking at so far has the potential to be a very good budget and the debates in this House are seeking to improve that budget further. Alas, the budget is a plan which remains a plan like any other plan. Unless it is implemented well, it will not benefit the people of this country.

Therefore, I come to the theme of this budget which is ‘From Stability to Improved Service Delivery’. I want to focus specifically on service delivery. In this sense, service delivery means that the moneys appropriated by this House must be used correctly and strictly for the purposes for which the moneys have been appropriated. The office that helps this country achieve that is the Office of the Auditor-General. It will help this House play the oversight role effectively, and yet year in year out the Auditor-General brings very sad reports that show various abuses, misappropriations and misapplications and write down facts of public resources. This happens virtually in every Government department that is audited by the Office of the Auditor-General. I am yet to see the report of the Auditor-General saying that they have audited all departments and have found nothing wrong.

Mr Chairman, further…

Mr Chairman: Order! The Chair always wants to remind and guide the House. We are not supposed to be reading newspapers when we are in the House. I appeal to hon. Members reading newspapers that this is not the right place.

Will the hon. Member for Luena continue, please,

Mr Milupi: Thank you, Mr Chairman. In addition to misappropriation and misapplication, the report of the Auditor-General also brings to light issues relevant to politics that happen in every part of the country. Quite often, we hear stories of contractors being paid mobilisation funds, and yet they are never on site. The result of this is that the development that should be taking place in our areas is not taking place.

Let me give the most atrocious example of this in recent times which is indeed the Mongu/Kalabo Road where in excess US$50 million has been spent by this country on a road that still remains a pipe dream. Year in and year out, the Auditor-General brings out this and other projects elsewhere in the country and the situation seems to be getting worse. This is not a political statement. Both sides of the House are aware of this. In fact, the President of this nation is exasperated by the gross misapplication of the nation’s resources. With this budget theme, particularly service delivery, this House has a right to expect the reports of mischief as highlighted in the Auditor-General’s report are followed through timely.

It is also sad that as we sit in this House today, the report that is current is the report for 2005. In any situation where you depend on an Auditor’s report, it is important that the time that takes the Auditor-General to prepare their reports must be shortened further. Therefore, there is a need to change the law. We must do this so that this House can debate reports that are current to help the country realise value from the monies appropriated by this House.

We should demand as a House to see a dramatic reduction in the misdeeds that are reported by the Auditor-General year in and year out. I agree entirely with the contribution of my brother Hon. Dr Chishimba, but I differ with him slightly in his view of political interference in the Office of the Auditor-General.

I worked with the current Auditor-General myself and I know she is a very independent person. What is required of this House is the support on the change of the law to make sure that action does get taken on the people or institutions that are mentioned. We know of certain countries even here in Africa where the Auditor-General’s report once presented in the House and referred to the Public Accounts Committee, when the committee sits, the police are also present so that those that have misappropriated the money get arrested there and then. This country can do the same.

Reports that come out and action is not being taken become toothless.

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir!

The Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I need your serious ruling. We are listening as the Executive to contributions from the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena, but is he in order to mislead the nation and this House that in some other countries when the Public Accounts Committee is meeting, the police are there and anybody whose name is mentioned in the Auditor-General’s Report is arrested immediately, giving the impression that thieves are also in the Public Accounts Committee room in the meeting. Is he in order to mislead us?

The Chairman: That point of order is an example of points of order that are made arising from maybe a different interpretation of certain words. I am sure the member debating did not mean what the point of order says.

Can you continue.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, I thank you for protecting me from Hon. Magande. However, if he wants examples of such countries, I can give them to him.

Mr Chairman, the Office of the Auditor-General must be strengthened further in the reports read out by His Honour the Vice-President, it is clear that even the funds that have been appropriated of about K30 billion are a welcome increase from last year’s K16.31 billion, an increase of 82 per cent. Welcome as this increase is, from the report of the Vice-President that is not sufficient, they need something like K80 billion.

Mr Chairman, if they are funded adequately, if we follow through their report, the benefits in monetary form far outweigh whatever increase they might ask for. The K36 billion which was stolen, as reported by the President, and many other amounts which we are not aware of, if we can seal the loopholes, we can have access to so much money such that even the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) that we are asking for can be increased to K1 billion per constituency. That can be achieved.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, the issue at hand is that we should take the reports of the Auditor-General seriously and we must act upon them.

I thank you, Sir

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to debate on the Vote on the Auditor-General’s Office. Sir, I just wanted to correct some misconceptions being peddled in this august House.

Sir, a statement was made by one of the hon. Members with regard to the New Deal Government’s interference in the operations of the Auditor-General. A statement was made to the effect that there is political interference contrary to the constitutional provisions which state that the Auditor-General should perform his duties without control or direction from any person.

Mr Chairman, that allegation against the New Deal Government is totally misplaced. The Auditor-General’s Office operates independently and professionally in Zambia. We do not interfere in the work of the Auditor-General.

The same hon. Member referred, extensively, to the reports of the Transparency International. We must be careful with some of the literature we refer to when debating in this august House. The literature from Transparency International is, normally, uplifted from the Auditor-General’s reports which, as guided by the Speaker, are always presented to this august House and to the Public Accounts Committee.

Sir, the Constitution provides that the Auditor-General’s reports should be submitted to the President within seven days and, within that period, they must be tabled before the House. So, the literature from Transparency International is secondary information. This august House always deals with some of these reports from the Auditor-General. Therefore, let us not be misled.

Again, I must state that the Auditor-General is protected by the Constitution and she or he cannot be removed without the due process of the law. A tribunal must be set up if you have to remove the Auditor-General. So, the Auditor-General enjoys security of tenure.

The hon. Member who was debating about interference by the New Deal Government merely made a general statement and made no effort, whatsoever, to provide any evidence …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
_______

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 6th March, 2007.