DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 7th March, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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QUESTIONS

HIPC COMPLETION POINT BENEFITS

350. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what the benefits of the country’s attainment of the HIPC Completion Point were to ordinary Zambians as a result.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Madam Speaker, HIPC stands for Heavily Indebted Poor Countries and Zambia was designated so in the early 1990s after its debt to the international community became unsustainable. This came about due to borrowing by the Government of the Republic of Zambia starting from 1973. Loans borrowed were used to build social facilities such as schools, hospitals and roads.

Madam Speaker, some of the loans were used to import food items like wheat making. Madam Speaker, all these loans benefited the ordinary people and ordinary Zambians and things like wheat which was brought in was used to make bread which was consumed by Zambians.

Madam Speaker, some of the schools and clinics which most of us attended were also as a result of these loans which the Government got. In the early 1990s, Zambia borrowed heavily in order to pay arrears of debt and imports. These loans assisted in removing the long queues for essential commodities such as soap and salt.

Hon. Machungwa would really want to hear that when MMD came into power, queues for essential commodities became a thing of the past and this is how some of these loans helped. The loans, therefore, benefited ordinary Zambians in that essential goods became plentiful in shops. The debt acquired for social and other infrastructure and for importing goods since 1973 had to be repaid by the Zambian Government over a long time. Some debts had a repayment period of 50 years. Unfortunately, the country’s foreign currency earnings dropped in the 1990s after the collapse of the mining industries. This made it difficult for Zambia to service the loans.

Madam Speaker, the country was then designated as a heavily indebted poor country with limited ability to pay back the huge international loan stock which had risen to US$7.2 billion by 2004. With such a huge debt, it was difficult to borrow more money. In order to assist the country with its debt burden, the creditors decided that the country should be under a programme of financial management which was to be supervised by the creditors. This programme called the Poverty Reduction Gross Facility (PRGF) will be under the enhanced HIPC Initiative organised by the IMF, World Bank and other creditors.

If the country managed this programme properly over the three years period, then it would reach the completion point of the HIPC Initiative and an amount of US$3.8 billion of its debt would be written off. In December 2000, Zambia qualified and was given a set of fifteen conditions to fulfil in order to reach the HIPC Completion Point. Zambia started implementing the new PRGF programme in January 2001 and was expected to reach the completion point in 2003. Among the conditions was that the country must be up to date with all loan repayments. This meant that instead of investing in development projects, the country had to use any available revenue for debt repayment. This resulted in inadequate revenue to invest in education, health and roads. Teachers and health personnel could not be recruited, while many roads remained un-repaired.

In fact, due to implementation slippages, the programme failed and by June 2003, Zambia had not reached the completion point and the debt could not be written off. The country continued to service the huge debt. In 2004, an amount of US$110 million or approximately K440 billion was paid to international creditors. A fresh arrangement was then made for the country to get back onto the HIPC Initiative by adhering to the fifteen conditions. The Zambian Government resolved in July 2003 to implement the creditor supervised financial management programme.

By December 2004, most of the conditions had been fulfilled and Zambia qualified to reach the completion point in April 2005. An amount of US$3.8 billion was written off as promised and a new programme to write off the remaining debt was implemented. By the end of 2006, a total of US$6.8 billion out of US $7.2 billion debt had been written off.

The implementation of the PRGF and reaching the HIPC Completion Point is a great benefit to all Zambians as the country’s debt stock has been reduced to about US$600 million. The following are the actual loan repayments between 2003 and 2006 and projections for 2007 to 2009.

Year Actual repayment (billion)  (Projected)
2003 455
2004 440
2005 520
2006 195 (after completion point)
2007     153
2008             156
2009             104
This shows that after reaching the HIPC Completion Point, we are paying less amounts of money. From annual repayments of over K440 billion, it is projected that Zambia will be paying about K100 billion per year in future. This means that most of the revenues collected by the Government will be used on local projects such as agriculture, education and health sectors. Already in 2005 and 2006, allocations to agriculture, education and health were significantly increased.

During the past three years over 15,000 teachers and 700 Agricultural Extension Officers have been recruited and the small-scale farmers have continued to receive subsidised fertiliser and seeds. Increased agricultural production of over 30 million bags of maize in 2006 has led to reduced price of mealie-meal. The allocation for road rehabilitation in 2006 was increased and many roads were worked on. More educational and health services and facilities will benefit the ordinary Zambian. The following table indicates the budget allocation during the past three years showing the significant increases:

Sector  Total Budget allocation (K billion)
  2004  2005  Increase  2006           Increase
Agriculture 168.3  340.75  (102%)   464.1   (36%)
Education 232.2  1016.1  (338%)   1280.1  (26%)
Health 133.8  445.3   (233%)   605.4   (36%)

Madam Speaker, the attainment of the HIPC Completion Point and the elimination of Zambia’s debt means that the country’s credit rating has improved. This will attract foreigners to invest in Zambia. Zambian business people can now also borrow easily from foreign banks, as they will have the trust in being paid back. All these investments by local and foreign business people will create employment and produce goods and services for the ordinary Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister alluded to the fact that the HIPC agreement was entered into in the year 2000 and was scheduled to be completed in 2003. In actual fact, it lasted another 2 years to be completed. Can he explain why the delay was there and he should not apologise for the late arrival of these benefits.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, the delay was due to slippages on the fifteen conditions which were put. Amongst those conditions were the issues of keeping personal emoluments to a level of not more than 8 per cent of gross domestic product. We are also supposed to reduce Government borrowing internally from the local banks to a very minimum level. As I reported before, in 2003 we had 5 per cent as domestic borrowing which was very high, and therefore, we are crowding out the private sector in industry. So, it was because of not meeting those fifteen conditions that the benefits were delayed.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I would like to believe that the hon. Minister would like to educate me on HIPC funds, meaning the money that has come from donors that have forgiven us debts. Is this money not targeted to specific developmental areas like agriculture, tourism and manufacturing, and that, in his Fifth National Development Plan and in his budget poverty reduction, in fact, is priority in these funds.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, there no HIPC funds from the donors. We had a debt with them and they have cancelled that debt. So, there are no funds from the donors. What it means is that, where we were supposed to service a debt with the World Bank they have cancelled it. It will not be paid in the forty years that we were supposed to pay it. It simply means, in 2020 the instalment which will be due that time to the World Bank will not be paid to them. If at that time, the Zambian Government is able to raise revenue locally that revenue will go to local projects. It will not be paid outside to the World Bank. There are no HIPC funds from the donors. What we have said is, because some of the areas or sectors of the economy suffered out of fulfilling these conditions, and already in my statement read by the hon. Deputy Minister, we indicated that we were not recruiting civil servants. That is how there was this story about not recruiting teachers. It was to keep the personal emoluments for public servants to less than 8 per cent of gross domestic product. What we have done since reaching HIPC Completion Point, we are now recruiting these essential staff that we did not recruit at that time. So, that is a poverty reduction programme which we agreed on that once we reach HIPC Completion Point we will start recruiting the core staff in education, agriculture as a growth industry and health. That is what we are doing now.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, arising from the last explanation given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning we recognise the fact that infrastructure development in the road sector had been negligent recognising it from what has been provided in this year’s budget. Can the hon. Minister explain as to why the road infrastructure development has been neglected when we have benefited from the HIPC Completion Point?

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, these savings is giving us fiscal space, is actually the savings which we drew from our revenues. From our revenues we have to look at all the competing needs and I think the hon. Member will appreciate that we cannot, from the limited revenues, finish all the projects at one goal. However, if we look at how much has been actually put to poor growth areas, you will appreciate that we are now spending more money in the budget than what we have actually looked at as growth poverty reduction areas. As revenue increases, most of these issues are going to be looked at and as we work as a nation together, I think it will be a thing of the past.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning explain the benefits accruing to the country from increasing domestic debt, and what measures he has put in place to make sure that it does not go out of control?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, as we explained in the Budget, out of about K7.1 trillion of domestic debt about K6 trillion of that is in Government Bonds and Treasury Bills. In our statement today, we indicated that during the period of implementing the HIPC Initiative, the Zambian Government had to be up to date on all foreign debt repayments. In order for the Government and Zambia to be up to date, the Government had to borrow from the local market to service the foreign debt. Because of that, we have been forgiven the six plus billion dollars.

Hon. Hachipuka wants to know what we are doing about the debt that we accumulated by borrowing from the local market. The Treasury Bills and Bonds are not a concern as such despite that we pay interest on them. The rest of the actual principle is rolled over on annual basis. What we are trying to do is to limit Government domestic borrowing so that we do not increase this local debt beyond the levels where it is at the moment.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, with the debt forgiveness from US$7.2 billion to about US$650 million as of now, would the hon. Minister accept that within several years, we will be back to square one if he keeps coming up with deficit budgets? For example, this year, there is a deficit of just under K4 trillion, which is about US$1 billion?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, indeed, we could be back there and in particular, if there is a misunderstanding that because we now have debt relief on the foreign debt, we can implement all the roads Hon. Imenda talked about. We should learn to understand that even after the debt relief, over K2 trillion of this year’s Budget is foreign money. Most of it is grant but we are also still getting some concessional loans. What we should do is live within our means. In that way, we will not be adding on to this debt.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, what guarantee is there that after having been forgiven the debt, we will not, after several years, get back to this situation? I am talking of a situation where the Government still continues to contract new debts by getting loans. This Parliament is on record as asking for this to be approved here, but the Government appears reluctant. What guarantee is there that without our knowledge, the hon. Minister will come back and we will have heavy debt again, and we will go back to being a heavily indebted poor country?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I cannot give that guarantee. All I can request is that any debts that we contract from now should be used productively and add value to the economy. If we can grow this economy from K45 trillion now to K100 trillion, in five years, we will be able to service debt.

Madam, we should not give the impression that at country level, you can develop resources on your own. Not many countries are doing that in the world. What is required is judicious use of any money that comes to the Government. That is why this Government is on record for its’ financial discipline and fiscal management. We want to make sure that any money that comes our way is used for proper purposes. If we recruit teachers like we are doing, the children that should come out of these colleges must become productive citizens when they finish school. They must go and produce so that the Gross Domestic Product of the country increases. If they become street kids, roaming the streets, expecting somebody to give them a job, we are not going to get anywhere. Every Zambian must become productive.

I thank you, Madam.

ESTABLISHMENT OF A CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY

351. Mr Sejani asked the Vice-President when the Government would establish a constituent assembly to adopt the proposed Republican Constitution.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I wish, from the onset to reaffirm Government’s firm commitment to the Constitution Review Process. Presently, the Government is earnestly undertaking necessary steps to drive this process forward contrary to some opinions that the Government is moving too slow over this matter.

According to the Government Road Map already released to the public, the constituent assembly should be established by the year 2009.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: This will be preceded by a census, referendum, enactment of a bill for the establishment of a constituent assembly and holding of elections for representatives of a constituent assembly.

The time frame will also depend on the availability of resources and the outcome of the referendum.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, this nation is confused and is worried about the conflicting signals coming from the Government. Inspite of the pronouncements that are made on the Floor of this House, we continue to get conflicting signals on this very huge national question. May I solicit a definitive response from the Government that we mean what we are saying that there will be a constituent assembly…

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask your question!

Mr Sejani: Is the Government now telling us definitively that they will not issue conflicting statements on the question of the constituent assembly and that we shall have a constituent assembly as they have stated today?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, I want to state that the Government is irrevocably committed to the process of enacting a new constitution. There have been no contradictions. The Government is concerned and we are dead on track as far as this issue is concerned.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, does His Honour the Vice-President know that it is the people’s right to ask for anything at the right time, like the constitution at hand and that whether it is wrong or right, they want a new constitution?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, in this year’s Budget, we have committed K202 billion for this process. That means we are a listening Government. We have listened to the demands of the people.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, if it is going to take up to 2009 to have a constituent assembly in place, may I know how long Zambians should wait and expect a new constitution to be in place if Government is taking its time just bringing up a constituent assembly.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the bottom line is that a constitution will be in place before 2010. Further, the Government will start this process as soon as we approve the estimates for the purpose of budget making.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, the President stated he would rather use the money for providing assistance to flood victims than on a piece of paper. How come the Vice-President is telling us today that there will be a constituent assembly when the President is not interested in a constitution?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the President was talking about priorities. The country has had serious floods and a lot of infrastructure has been destroyed. The President said that if he had an option, he would rather take this money to those immediate needy areas. He never back tracked on the constitution making process.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, in the most recent past, the President was quoted saying that he was sad that he might not enact the constitution in the course of his tenure of office. Is the President still sad that he may not see the constitution at the end of his tenure of office?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the President’s position on this matter has not changed, but what we should bear in mind is that there is the question of resources being available at the right time and also results coming out of the referendum which would determine the next process.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the navigation of the constitution making process has seen a number of road maps including the latest one that a constituent assembly will not be in place until 2009. Can I find out from the Acting Leader of the House what the K202 billion allocated in this year’s budget is going to be used for? Could he also kindly give us a road map which all of us can look at?

Madam Deputy Speaker: You may answer one of the questions, Acting Leader of Government Business.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the K202 billion is meant to start constitutional making process.

I thank you.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Madam Speaker, is the constitution supposed to be enacted at the will of the people or the Government because the Zambian people have spoken? What are we still waiting for?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, drawing a constitution is a constitutional matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah.

Mr Mpombo: Yes, there are steps to be followed. If you want, for instance, to have a constituent assembly, how do you have it? You have to change certain provisions of the Constitution and, therefore, the Government has clearly set itself steps to follow in ensuring that there is a smooth and orderly process. We are not taking away anything from the people. We have said that we will go by the will of the people, but we will take the whole hog in terms of the Constitution.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

(Debate resumed)

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K305, 911, 217, 977.00).

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K140, 634, 746, 311.00).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure and honour to be privileged to present a policy statement for the Ministry of Home Affairs in respect of supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure or indeed the 2007 Budget.

Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Home Affairs plays a pivotal role in the provision and maintenance of internal security, which is a critical element in the sustenance of socio-economic development. In this regard, the ministry provides an enabling environment where peace, stability and justice prevail in order to promote sustainable development in the country.

Mr Chairman, the ministry’s responsibilities, therefore, encompasses a wide range of activities in relation to the maintenance of law and order. In order to carry out this task effectively, the ministry operates under the following portfolio functions as contained in the Government Gazette Notice No. 46 of 24th January, 1992. The ministry is involved in arms and ammunition control, Zambian citizenship, deportation, drug enforcement, extradition of fugitive offenders, forensic medical services, immigration, passports, national registration, law and order, missing persons, national archives protected places and areas, refugees, registration of births, marriages and deaths, road traffic (enforcement of law relating to road traffic), Zambia Police, preservation of public security, civil defence, registration of societies, suicide and prisons.

Mr Chairman, to effectively perform these functions, the ministry developed a five-year strategic plan for the period 1995 to 2000 and reviewed it in 2001 and 2002 for another five years i.e. 2003 to 2007. Next year, the strategic plan will be reviewed again for the subsequent five years.

Mr Chairman, these strategic plans are designed to provide direction in the maintenance of internal security, peace and stability in the country. They define the ministry’s missions, goals, objectives and other associated strategies. The objective of reviewing the strategic plan is to transform the Ministry of Home Affairs into a more efficient, cost effective and responsible institution and direct its decisions, programmes and activities towards improving the quality of service delivery to the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the operations of the strategic plan are carried out by specialised agencies that form the Ministry of Home Affairs namely: -

The Zambia Police Force, the Drug Enforcement Commission, the Zambia Prison Service, the Department of Immigration, the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, the National Archives of Zambia, the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees, the Office of the Registrar of Societies, the Police Public Complaints Authority and the Home Affairs Research Planning and Information Department.

Mr Chairman, the ministry’s vision is “A safer and more secure Zambia by the year 2030” in line with the national vision 2030. The guiding mission statement for the ministry and its specialised agencies is to effectively and efficiently provide and maintain an accountable and transparent internal security system in order to create an environment which peace, stability and justice prevail for sustainable social and economic development for the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the situation analysis on individual specialised agencies is as follows:

(i) Zambia Police

The Zambia Police Force is mandated by the Zambian Constitution to maintain law and order, to prevent crime, protect life and property, detect crime and prosecute offenders. It is also the responsibility of the Zambia Police Force to manage traffic in order to reduce road carnage and promote safety.

The police are expected to provide quality service according to its mission statement. However, this mandate is not fully realised due to logistical and human resource constraints, for instance the total manpower in the Zambia Police Force now stands at 18,000. This number is expected to police a population of about 11 million people. The ministry has estimated that to effectively police a population of 11 million people, the police needs a total of 27,000 police officers. A recruitment drive is well under way to achieve its figure by 2015. The accepted international minimum ratio for policing is one policeman to 25 persons. There is a general lack of infrastructure also, specialised training and basic logistics such as modern high-tech equipment for crime prevention and investigations. This scenario makes pro-active policing difficult. However, most of these concerns have been addressed in the Fifth National Development Plan through the nine ministry police objectives listed in the ministry’s police document.

Mr Chairman, notwithstanding these constraints, the Zambia Police Force has managed to reduce crime levels through initiatives within the framework of police reform programmes. These include the Victim Support Unit, Neighbourhood Watch Associations Anti- Copper Thefts Unit, Community Policing and Construction of Juvenile Cells in some police stations. The aspects of Human Rights and good governance have also been integrated in the police training curriculum.

(ii) Zambia Prisons Service (ZPS)

The Zambia Prisons Service is mandated by the Zambian Constitution to provide humane custody, correctional and reintegration of discharged prison inmates into society as law-abiding citizens. The service is established and governed by CAP 97 of the Laws of Zambia.

Today’s prison population is 14,500 and indeed, is occupying infrastructures originally intended to only be used for 4000 prisoners. This has resulted in serious overcrowding taking into account that the initial prison infrastructure has not been expanded and rehabilitated for a long time. Some buildings are dilapidated and collapsing making them unsuitable and inadequate for the ever-increasing population. The current establishment for prison staff is 1,856 giving a ratio of one officer to eight prisoners contrary to the law that provide ratio of one officer to four inmates.

Furthermore, due to inadequate infrastructures, the classification of prisoners has become very difficult in that juveniles and other remandees are mixed without distinction.

Mr Chairman, notwithstanding, this, the above constraints, the Prison Service has endeavoured to provide quality correction and reintegration service aimed at resettling discharged inmates into productive and law-abiding citizens. Officers are being trained in clinical psychology, social work, human rights and good governance issues.

In an effort to increase capacity, the Government together with co-operating partners has constructed juvenile facilities in Kabwe and Katombola. In addition, the Government is also in the process of completing the construction of the Mwembeshi Maximum Prison and rehabilitation of some prison dormitories at Kamfinsa Prison. This development will create room for over 1,000.

(iii) Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC)

Mr Chairman, let me now turn my attention to the DEC. The commission’s mandate is covered under the provision of CAP 96 of the Laws of Zambia whose core functions are to control and prevent the illegal production, trafficking and abuse of narcotics and psychotropic substances and provide rehabilitation services to drug addicts in order to contribute to social economic development and maintenance of internal security.

Mr Chairman, the Government observed that proceeds arising from drug enforcement and other vices were destroying the country’s economy. In light of this, Act No. 14 of 2001 to monitor and prevent money laundering, established the Anti-Money Laundering Investigations Unit.

Mr Chairman, ever since the creation of the DEC, there has been an increase in seizures of illicit drugs and prosecutions of culprits in drug related and money laundering cases. However, the absence of infrastructures coupled with low staffing levels, which at present stands at 465 personnel covering the whole country, has meant that a number of culprits have escaped the dragnet.

Mr Chairman, in order to effectively and efficiently fight the vices, there is need to increase staffing levels to 1,500 by the year 2010, procure appropriate transport, erect appropriate infrastructures and acquire equipment such as drug detectors amongst other things.

(iv) Immigration Department

Mr Chairman, the Immigration Department derives its mandate from the Immigration and Deportation Act (CAP 123) of the Laws of Zambia. Its core functions are to regulate the entry into and exit from Zambia, the removal of illegal immigrants and deportation of persons inimical to the security of a country as well as to control and monitor the stay of visitors and immigrants in the country.

Mr Chairman, the positive economic outlook and peace prevailing in the country has resulted in an increase in the number of tourists, visitors, investors, and of course, illegal immigrants. However, there has not been a corresponding increase in staffing levels, equipment and training programs and infrastructure development. Consequently, the department is not fully realising its objectives due to logistic and human resource inadequacies, but include manual systems of managing information and border controls, low staffing levels and lack of land and water transport at various borders and indeed internal controls. Besides, lack of adequate office infrastructure and staff houses has impacted negatively on the department’s performance.

(v) National Registration, Passport and Citizenship Department

Mr Chairperson, this department undertakes a multifaceted mandate of issuing both national identity and travel documents. It also registers its citizens and bonafide foreigners in accordance with the provision of the National Registration Act (Cap 126), Birth and Death Certificates, under the Birth and Death Registration Act (Cap 51), Adoption Act (Cap 54), Marriage Act (Cap 50), Citizenship Act (Cap 124) and Passport Act No. 22 of 2003 and the United Nations Travel Documents.

The Department has endeavoured to provide quality services in order to satisfy the demand. However, like in many other departments, this Department faces logistical problems and low staffing levels. Currently, the capturing and processing of information and documents is done manually hence affecting the operational efficiency of the Department. Meanwhile, the exercise of computerising operations in the Department is well underway.

(vi)  National Archives of Zambia

Mr Chairperson, the National Archives of Zambia derives its mandate from both the National Archives Act (Cap 175) and the Printed Publications Act (Cap 161). Its core mandate is to collect, manage and preserve all public records, archives, printed and non-printed publications for posterity.

The Department has no adequate and suitable storage facilities for safe custody of documents due to the non-completion of the archival building that is going on. In addition, the department lacks adequate qualified personnel to carryout restorative and records management tasks.

Mr Chairperson, despite these constraints, I must admit that the department has managed to establish a Non-Government Archives Unit and consequently complied the first guide to the Non-Governmental archives in Zambia. The Department is also digitising most of the historical documents and computerising the information storage and retrieval process in order to increase access and enhance information retrieval. Additionally, it has also collected 40 per cent of all printed publications within Zambia.{mospagebreak}

(vii) Commission for Refugees

Zambia has for a long time played host to many refugees fleeing from their countries as a result of civil strife and other conflicts. The first undocumented caseload was in 1945 during the Second World War.

The mandate of the commission is ensued from the Refugee Control Act of 1970 (Cap 120). Its core function is to ensure effective management and protection of refugees in the country.

There have been some challenges associated with refugee hosting, but I need to mention in this august House that the resources have dwindled from the cooperating partners to support refugee programmes. There has been competition for the same natural resources between the refugees and the hosting communities, as refugees seem to be better off materially than the hosting communities due to the support they receive from the international community.

In addressing the above challenges, the Zambia Initiative Programme (ZIP) was introduced as a pilot project to take developmental programmes to refugee hosting communities in order to mitigate the negative impact of hosting refugees. Currently, the programme is running in Western and North-Western provinces. It is the first of its kind in Africa.

(viii) Office of The Registrar of Societies

The Office of the Registrar of Societies operates under the provision of the Societies Act of 1995 (Cap 119) whose core functions are to register, regulate and monitor activities of societies in order to promote freedom of association and enhance good governance.

Inadequate funding, low staffing, weak monitoring and evaluation mechanisms have negatively affected the smooth-running of the department coupled with the department’s lack of office accommodation.

Sir, notwithstanding the above constraints, the department has been able to execute its mandate relatively well. There has been free flow of information about societies to members of the public, Government Departments and stakeholders.

(ix)  The Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA)

This department was established pursuant to the Zambia Police Amendment Act No. 14 of 1999, under Section 57A – 59B. Its core function is to receive complaints against police human rights abuses; investigating abuses, making directives and recommendations to relevant institutions.

The Authority started operations in January 2003. I must admit that many cases have been dealt with by this organisation.

(x)  Research and Information Department (HARID)

HARID was established by the Government in 1995 to coordinate planning, develop and manage effective security information management systems and conduct research in order to provide information for informed decision-making and improved service delivery.

Currently, the department is in the process of replacing the obsolete computer equipment with more modern ones. The department is not operating effectively as required due to the old equipment arising from inadequate financial resources, trained human resource and, indeed, understaffing.

However, despite the difficulties, the department has undertaken some research in security matters and has developed national data bases for the following departments: National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, Immigration, Police and Road Traffic Commission (RTC).

Mr Chairperson, last but not the least, HIV and AIDS is a crosscutting issue. The HIV and AIDS pandemic pose a serious threat to the Ministry of Home Affairs ability to successfully provide quality service of combating crime due to increase in morbidity and attrition. Statistics available indicated that the ministry has lost and will continue losing a lot of man hours through illness. This results in unplanned separation packages and other benefits including extra recruitment to fill in the void.

Mr Chairperson, another vulnerable group in this ministry is prison inmates who require improved care and more coordinated interventions. Sir, the ministry has put in place an HIV and AIDS Policy at the work place to facilitate interventions such as awareness, prevention, treatment and core-services for its workers and the immediate family members.

Mr Chairperson, in a nutshell, I have given out a policy related to my ministry, the ministry of Home Affairs and its departments.

I beg to move that the budget for this ministry be allowed to pass.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): I am grateful to you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to begin by complementing the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for having provided a very able context in which the Ministry of Home Affairs has to be understood by all of us.

Sir, the Ministry of Home Affairs as the hon. Minister has ably put it, was created specifically to maintain law and order in our country. Accordingly, all the departments within the same ministry must be seen through the same spectacles.

It is, therefore, important for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that he allocates sufficient funds to the Ministry of Home Affairs in order to enable the departments which fall under the ministry to function properly.

Sir, any departure from that arrangement would mean that even the resources that would be allocated to other ministries for the purposes of developing this country would be wasted. At some point, we will assume that this legislation is failing to maintain law and order. It could be better if any ministry in our country, for example, the Ministry of Works and Supply could put emphasis on developing our nation. If the infrastructure that you are going to put up will not be protected by our security officers, I am afraid, even the concept of developing our country may be delayed and will not even be realised.

Sir, I have in mind a number of departments within the ministry, which have been under funded or under played. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to raise the profile of these departments so that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning may be able to see the activities of this department. May be they have always been under funded because the person who is responsible for apportioning the cake to various ministries has not taken the trouble of visiting some of these departments for him to know what goes on there.

Sir, for example, I have in mind the department under the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is responsible for the registration of political parties, registration of a number of organisations and societies, which is the registrar of societies. Every year when you look at the cake that is apportioned to this department, one wonders whether you have recognised the importance of the department. All of us are products of different political parties except for those who have come as independent like what happened to me five years ago, but I am now speaking as an hon. Member of Parliament under the Patriotic Front.

Sir, even the Government of the day has registered their political party using the department. If you can under play the importance of that organisation, I am afraid we would not have been here. I am saying so because it is a requirement. If you want to stand for elections, you should indicate the political party that is going to sponsor you. That is why you are there as hon. Ministers and hon. Deputy Ministers. That is why we are also here as hon. Members of the opposition drawn from various political parties. If we had not registered our political parties, I am afraid you would not even have formed the Government. Therefore, that institution must be respected.

Sir, apart from that, the registrar of societies must be able to go out in the field to determine the number of churches that are active, those that are not active and some associations which are active and not active. If you cannot give a lot of money to that department, it will mean that the information that they will be collecting, in terms of how many churches and associations are in our country will be second hand information. We need to fund these institutions sufficiently in order to enable the officers to be on the ground all the time.

Sir, secondly, I think all of us have appreciated the importance of history. History is important because you make reference to what used to happen in the past to determine the future. This is the importance of a national archive. The national archive is there to preserve our records. It could be the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and other various ministries that are supposed to put their records in that department. For example, the buildings whose construction commenced fourteen years ago have not been completed up to now. This is because of the funding levels which are not attractive.

Sir, I have noted in the Yellow Book that in fact, you have even reduced the amount of money from K2 billion to K1.7 billion and when time comes for you to release that money, you do not do so. In other words, the records that are supposed to be deposited into that department will remain in various ministries. If you want to use that information to make a decision in one way or another, you have to go back to the department responsible for keeping the records. If this is not done, that information cannot be traced. It means that you will not remain current in your decision making process. Therefore, that department is cardinal. I would like to state that I am not so conversant with construction work, but a critical analysis of the buildings, which have remained uncompleted for so long may indicate to you that the Government and the ministry may require not less than K24 billion to complete that building. As of now, all the records are scattered at the ministry.

Sir, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to take time to visit that department. You should look at the buildings which have remained uncompleted.  You will be surprised to learn that a building which is supposed to be attractive still looks ugly. You should find money to ensure that these buildings are completed.

Mr Chairperson, I now come to the issue of refugees. I am aware that as Zambians, we have always stated that these refugees must be sent back to their respective countries. I agree that such opinions can be entertained in one way or another. The reality is that all of us can be refugees at one point or another. The fact that some countries are at war and that we have been able to accommodate these refugees does not imply that the peace that we have been enjoying in our country is permanent. One day, we might find that there is chaos in our own country. I am not advocating for the same, but this is reality and it may happen. You will never know what comes tomorrow.

Sir, what I am pleading for is that the action that has already been taken by the Ministry of Home Affairs must be consolidated. It is a question of having discussions with the affected countries where these refugees come from so that arrangements can be made to take these refugees back to their respective countries without using force.  I am not going to be part of that kind of arrangement because you will never know what comes tomorrow. You may find that tomorrow you have become a refugee as well. The countries that may know that Zambia has been hostile to us may not be able to accommodate us.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that it is the onus of the Ministry of Home Affairs to discriminate against those refugees who are here to plunder our resources. For example, if you happen to go to Mayukwayukwa, you may find that there are about five Kenyans. Who knows whether Kenya is at war or not? I am aware that some refugees are here simply to plunder our wealth. Those refugees can be isolated and be taken back to their respective countries. I am aware that the ministry has been doing that expect that sometimes when they want to take action, the same refugees who may find themselves here illegally, there comes the question of funding because they have to look for money to buy tickets. I want to emphasise that we should not be relaxed on that issue. 

Sir, the Prisons Department is yet another important department. I have always said that prisoners should be able to feed themselves. There is no way prisoners can be spoon-fed. They have the energy to till the land. After all, the idea is to establish the open air prisons so that after a prisoner has served for three or four years, he or she may have acquired a lot of skills which may enable him or her to be integrated into society. In other words, prisoners have a lot of energy. In fact, if you look at the prisoners in open-air prisons and compare them with those in confinement, you will discover that those who in open-air prisons are in good shape. The best we can do is to offload a number of prisoners, especially those who have not committed serious crimes so that they contribute to the economic growth of the country.

There is no need to feed prisoners unless there is a crisis in the country. Granted that the situation is okay, my recommendation is that prisoners must feed themselves.

Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has retained the same allocation of K1.2 billion for buying inputs and equipment for the past five years. I think it is better for the ministry to look at that figure so that the department may be given something like K5 billion for them to buy sufficient inputs and allow prisoners to grow sufficient crops to feed themselves and sell the surplus.

Mr Chairperson, the Immigration Department is one area where we need to assist the Ministry of Home Affairs. You have complained about people entering our country illegally. Measures have been put in place by the ministry to ensure that unwanted foreigners are deported back to their respective countries. This means that the Immigration Department has to look for money to buy vehicles and other things. If you cannot fund them sufficiently we will continue harbouring illegal foreigners. Please address that problem sufficiently to ensure that this department is given a lot of money in order to enable them buy vehicles.

Mr Chairperson, some of the people they are dealing with are notorious and anything can happening. Maybe, in the course of performing their functions at night, they maybe attacked by these people who are in the country illegally. They may also face these criminals who may open fire at them. The best arrangement would be that while they are looking or searching for illegal immigrants, buy them vehicles so that immediately these criminals are apprehended, they are put in the vehicles and transported to Police Headquarters. Without that, I can assure you that we will be talking about illegal immigrants for years and years. The best way of containing that situation is to ensure that we fund the department sufficiently and buy vehicles throughout the country. Then, you will see the wonders that they will perform.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure that we are all aware that the Police Force has credible officers operating under difficult circumstances. We should improve their conditions of service. It does not make sense to send a person 200 kilometers away from his family and not look after him properly. In my view, that is a contradiction. If you have accepted the fact that the police are there to maintain law and order, the funding level and their conditions of service must improve.

Sir, so many allegations have been made and some facts have been produced about some of our police officers who have been found wanting.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity and I will make use of my fifteen (15) minutes very effectively.

First and foremost, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for giving us the activities of his ministry and the inability of this Government to fund them. Obviously, we need funding for any department to work effectively. In general, I share your view.

Mr Chairperson, secondly, resources are being misapplied. That is a fact and I will be demonstrating in a short while why there could be sufficient money to run some of the needy departments in that ministry.

Firstly, I do not see why good governance or any Government cannot apply to the independence of ministries for as long the top civil servants have a tenure of office that is guaranteed. If you are on three-year contracts, you know what happens.

Secondly, I would like to tell the hon. Minister to join those who believe that the twenty-one ministries could be made into entities with national corporate image running their own affairs with proper promotion ladders for public servants and of course for politicians as and when it comes. 

Sir, having stated that, I do not see the reason for you hon. Minister, to continue complaining about lack of resources when in fact, you can do away with the Police Service Commission and empower the Inspector-General of Police and the people in-charge of prisons and thereafter, make savings to improve the services of those two departments. In any case, we have so many other departments under you, immigration included that do not have the Public Service Commission, but they seem to be doing a good job. Therefore, let us introduce good governance ministry by ministry. You should trust the people that are there and give them proper tenure of office and longevity of service for politicians for as long as they can do their work properly so that they direct the action to your commitment.

Sir, every one of these ministries budgeted as they liked. They provided as they liked to the wishes of any rationalised way of budgeting for a proper reason. Out of twenty-one ministries, only a third or a quarter of those ministries disclosed the cost of running the office of the minister and two offices of the deputy ministers and the permanent secretary. I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Home Affairs because he is in the category of the few that put costs in the budget.

It is a difference matter whether the value you have put to you and your ministers and permanent secretary is cost effective, but nonetheless, you have put it there. Therefore, we know what it costs us to run your top hierarchy in the ministry. That goes to the Local Government and a few others. May I ask hon. Magande to please make it easy for us in the future to cost benefit the performance of the top hierarchies in ministries to ensure that hon.  Ministers’ costs in the budget and those of senior civil servants are articulated.

I am aware that in one ministry, you have put all your costs in one permanent secretary. Are you not lucky? You have more than two permanent secretaries. What we are saying is that it would be easier for the costs of ministries at that level to be clear then because then you will not be accused of misusing any money whatsoever. Therefore, when we are asked to reduce, some hon. Minister may offer to cut off some of their expenses particularly travels, telephones, vehicles and the rest of it. So, the focus of this budget must be standardised at the ministry level as rule number one.

Secondly, I wish that the poverty reduction programmes could be defined. If you go through this Yellow Book, you find that telephone bills of three years ago have not been paid, and yet at the time, some of you were not even ministers. The Ministry of Education is one good example. These are shown in this Yellow Book and provided for under poverty reduction. What has poverty reduction got to do with not paying your bills? That is the case for every ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I have taken advantage of the fact that this is the first ministry we are debating and therefore, a certain level of standard must be brought up. We want to know how much these sixty ministers cost us. Are they paid according to their performance? Is it true that this is how we are spending this money? I believe that this money could be diverted to other activities. That is the point I am making. I have seen that vehicles, incinerators for burning papers, floor building, etc, are included in here which could be redefined and reworked out, if Hon. Magande and his staff were allowed to budget on a standard basis. That is my advice for the future.

Mr Chairperson, we have sufficiently congratulated ourselves, the Minister of Finance and National Planning and the President, but unless we are sure of what we want to achieve we may be making a very serious mistake. No doubt.

Macro-economic stability started a long time ago, but the man on the scene is Peter Magande. He may not be the best of ministers, but he has stabilised the economy and so, we compliment you. However, I hope that you will agree with me …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … that we should cut some of the figures in this budget as dictated by this House. Hon. Minister, there are some bizarre expenses in this budget and I will give a typical example of the Ministry of Home Affairs which I earlier on complimented.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just by way of guidance, can you address the Chair?

Mr Matongo: I think the Chairperson does not want me to debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue I was saying address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: Alright, I thought you did not want me to debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: No.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, the police and teachers are the most wretched employees of the earth in terms of poverty and salaries.

Under police, the Poverty Reduction Programme has been allocated K182 billion for the rehabilitation of water and sewer systems and K30 billion has been allocated for the construction of new houses. We have heard that before and it has never happened. However, the Inspector-General of Police does not question this since it was budgeted for last year in smaller amounts, but now we have increased the amounts and he has nothing to say. Hon. Minister, perhaps you could look at that.

The Hon. Minister whom I have already complimented has allocated himself at headquarters K1.8 billion together with his ministers and permanent secretaries. However, look at what he provided for last year for new passports, K4.3 billion. I wonder whether it was used. If you look at his allocation for travels, it is another huge sum of money for the ministry. Meanwhile, policemen keep on asking for cigarettes even from the Minister of Finance and National Planning who does not smoke when he drives around the roads and they do not recognise him as the Minister of Finance. Surely, can we not remove this Poverty Reduction Programme allocation to support police officers on the ground rather than concentrate it on ministers to use on travels all over the shore including going to see the Victoria Falls on the pretext that the commander in Southern Province has a pass out parade?

Laughter

Mr Matongo: That is for the Deputy Minister for Southern Province to do. This scenario in the Ministry of Home Affairs is also found in every ministry. Undefined roles and duties of people who are supposed to do the job in the districts and provinces is overshadowed by bills coming from all over the place.

For this reason, I urge the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to persuade his colleagues to price their offices. There are only seven or eight that have done so. We want to know the cost analysis benefit. I want to know what the Ministry of Defence will cost me against the value of providing security to me. The same goes to every one of you.

 I will move amendments as we progress, to reallocate some of these moneys to needy areas such as police, immigration and all those that need money for our protection.
 
To the citizenry I will advise that any person who runs away after seeing a policeman must have a problem. A policeman protects. However, I am not very sure about the military personnel since when I was born the first person I saw in uniform in Pemba was a policeman. He was a white man. And we used to follow him as he walked from up town Pemba to down town Pemba where his office was. However, the ones we have now cannot even walk properly because of their shoes and their bad uniforms. They are ashamed to walk in public because we are using money for other purposes instead of looking after them. It is not yet time for us to be proud as a country unless we reduce our own expenditure and transmit it to the lower levels our people.

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: There is $3,000.

Mr Matongo: I am not going to answer back because you might not like what I say.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: The point I am trying to make is that, we want to cut expenditure downwards so that the Hon. Magande’s HIPC effort is not translated into telephone bills, minister’s flying to London to buy new suits, but to buy uniforms for policemen and have their compounds renovated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: That is what poverty reduction is all about. I appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to reject approving this poverty reduction which is found in every ministry, so that the money can go to deserving people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Even salaries!

Mr Matongo: I have no problem with it, but all I am saying is that the budgeted figures in the Ministry of Home Affairs replicated to all ministries under the guise and bizarre expenditures of poverty reduction, and yet they mean, high consumption for higher offices. We also want our policemen to get fat and be able to run around. Therefore, I ask the Minister to cut his own expenses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bonshe (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for affording me this chance to add my voice in support of the Ministry of Home Affairs.

As you are all aware, the ministry is responsible for maintenance of law and order. If there is no law and order in the country then there would be chaos. We are able to transact our businesses because our women and men in uniform are trying to protect our businesses.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Therefore, we have to ensure that this ministry is supported, but unfortunately this is a ministry that has been neglected. When you compare with other security divisions, the Zambia Police in the Ministry of Home Affairs is the least, notwithstanding that it is the mother of all the security wings in this country. The Office of the President Security Division - intelligence was a branch in the Zambia Police Force and was known as Special Branch and was separated around 1966 and 1967.

Mr Chairman, this time when you see the grading of an intelligence officer in the Office of the President compared to a police inspector, the difference is wide. An ordinary intelligence officer in the Office of the President is graded equivalent to an Assistant Superintended in the Zambia Police. The difference is very wide. Even the Anti Corruption Commission only formed in 1980 is graded higher than the Zambia Police Service. That is very unfortunate because even in terms of remuneration, the salary of the Director General in the Office of the President is not equated to the salary of the Inspector General of Police.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: That is a fact because those figures were brought here in Parliament and the margin was too wide. We want that margin to be bridged …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: … so that the salary of the Inspector General is equated or it should even be higher than that of the Director General of Intelligence because the Zambia Intelligence Service is the baby of the Inspector General.

A police inspector is equated to a Zambia enrolled nurse in terms of salary and yet he is an officer. Does that befit the title of officer when that person is not well treated? The last time police houses were constructed was when Aaron Milner was Minister of Home Affairs in 1976. He built a number of flats and police houses. Sir, 1975 and 1976 is the time we saw police camps coming up. Since that time, there has been nothing and police officers are reduced to sleeping in ramshackle structures.

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairman, I will give an example of my constituency at Mufumbwe Police Station. Sir, this station was opened in 1973 and up to date there is no single building there.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr Bonshe: The officers at this police station are sleeping in hats made of iron sheets from the bottom up to the roof.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, Hammer!

Mr Bonshe: With no cement on the floor and it is a one roomed thing.

Hon. PF Members: Yaa!

Mr Bonshe: And the person who sleeps there is called an officer.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We do not debate like that in this august House. This is an honourable House and there are rules and if you want to agree with what he is saying, the acceptable expression is ‘hear, hear’. You are making the Chamber look like something else. Hon. Member, continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: We are talking to a listening Government and if we do not tell them, they will not know and since they are a listening Government they should do something.

Mr Chairman, about eleven years ago the then Minister of Home Affairs, I think it was Dr Machungwa who went to Mufumbwe Police Station and laid a foundation for the construction of a police station.

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: This has ended at slab level because up to now there is nothing and that piece of land has been repossessed.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: All we are saying is that we have agreed in this House that the Zambia Police Force needs to be supported and we need a huge amount to be allocated to them so that they can do the work because when we are comfortably sleeping, they are on duty patrolling, protecting our lives and property. They are dying in the process of protecting our property and not their property and so we should ensure that these people are properly remunerated. If there is money which is not going to be properly applied in any Ministry, please let us move it to the Ministry of Home Affairs where it is needed most.

Mr Chairman, the Immigration Department also needs to be assisted because we have areas at the borders where for example, some Lunda people from North Western Province look like those from the Congo DR and Angola. You cannot differentiate them.

Laughter

Mr Bonshe: So, we need to put more security measures to ensure that people do not come in with on the pretext of being Lunda when they are Congolese.

Laughter

Mr Bonshe: We have to ensure that we improve our immigration system at the borders to control the influx of people who are attracted to the good governance of this Government. I believe that our listening Government is doing something and I know that the police station at Mufumbwe will be attended to and also the salary of the Inspector General and his conditions of service will be looked at to equate them to other security services.

I thank you.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairman, I feel saddened to see the reduction in the allocation to the Ministry of Home Affairs, particularly the police, especially when we are looking at reducing crime such as corruption in the police service. I feel sorry for the hon. Minister in charge of the police when he is explaining to this House all the time and describing the bribery which is taking place in his ministry. He seems to have no words to describe it but simply says, ‘it is self defence’.

Mr Chairman, more money should be allocated to this Ministry so that the police officers can have their lives improved. In Munali we have police officers who live in houses which are like chicken runs. We, in this House, cannot live in those conditions, but we expect those police officers to protect our lives. Those police officers who live in such houses are the ones we parade along the roads to the airport early in the morning. At least we can give them decent accommodation.

Mr Chairman, I feel bad to have to talk about police all the time. Just the day before yesterday, we read an article in the daily papers about a police officer who picked up a five year old child and shot it point blank. That makes me wonder if our police officers are in their right state of mind. I think it is because of the conditions that they are living in. Why do we not improve their livelihood?

Mr Chairman, when you look at the money allocated to Gender, it is K5 million for the whole country and this is at the time we are looking at the improvement of gender.

We have seen how police women dress. Now, it even makes me think that they wear those short dresses which I have talked about in this House because the material bought for them is not enough to make a decent skirt. We need decency and respect in our women so that even when men look at us they should respect us instead of buying small uniforms.

Hon. Members: Go ahead.

Ms Mumbi: Mr Chairman, it is sad to see some hon. Members who proudly shout in support of the K78, 576, 000 allocated to State House for…

Hon. Opposition Members: Animals.

Ms Mumbi: …animals. We are talking about human beings who need decency. We are talking about repairing G3 for police officers some of which were made before I was even born. Why can we not buy new guns for them because criminals are now using sophisticated weapons? We should be mindful of some things we say because considering that our people listen to these debates. Even when we insult other hon. Members, people get to know because the media reports whatever is said here. It is sad that our people see us shouting as if we are alangizi because only alangizi insult when while teaching young men and women and it is their professional …

Interruptions

Ms Mumbi: …no I am talking to those of you who like insulting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi: They will be wondering whether you are hon. Members or alangizi.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Shakafuswa.

Ms Mumbi: Mr Chairman, we were long talking about accommodation because it is in my constituency. These police officers are working so hard. Come to my constituency, I can proudly say the police officers are working because you will never find bars open at 1000 hours. These police officers walk and when you look at their boots they wear you would think they have come from Iraqi where there is war.

Laughter

Ms Mumbi: Their uniforms are in taters. That is true whether you like it or not and you will see them. We were told in this House that 5,000 police officers have no accommodation. As I said, go to Chelstone Police Camp and see how our police officers are living. Then, you find there is a reduction in the money allocated to them which is K30 billion to be shared among the three institutions, the police, prison service and immigration. That is a joke. When we have seen K1 billion allocated to one person’s house. Let us give decency to our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Thank you, Mr Chairman. I stand to support the budget on Home Affairs. Though, I stand to support I have few reservations.

Mr Chairman, when we are talking about police, I think it is true that policemen are living in misery. Transport is something that you cannot even dream about. I am on record in this House talking about why it is so difficult for the members of the public to be assisted when they call the police at night. My investigations reviewed that most of the transport that was allocated to police, actually, are personal to holder. When a person calls for help at night, the car is under key and lock. Now, how do you expect a person to be assisted at night? Police officers should be helped in terms of transport.

Mr Chairman, intelligence gathering is another problem. We have seen the Government paying a lot of money because police officers sometimes have arrest people on half baked information. So, there is need that our police officers are well trained.

Mr Chairman, in this country we have a lot of syndicates. Even now the Government has found it difficult to arrest some people because of the high level of theft that we have in this country. There is need for our police officers to be trained and…

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairman, I was simply saying that the money allocated to intelligence gathering should be increased looking at the sophisticated criminals we have in this country. We need our police officers to be equipped with the modern way of handling these issues because the Government is losing a lot of money through compensation.

Mr Chairman, I also observed that there is no allocation on the procurement of Anti-Ritroviral (ARVs) in the police. I do not know whether this Government has gone the Sondashi way…

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: …and stopped allocating money to police officers. They cannot tell me that we do not have officers who are affected with HIV/AIDS for them to remove budget allocation on ARVs.

Mr Chairman, police uniforms is also something that we cannot talk about. It is true that most of our officers cannot go patrolling because of their attire. I can tell you what happened to me one time. A police officer asked about my finished tyres. I just told him to look at his boots.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: .Then, he said bamudala kabiyeni namulanda sana.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: So, we want our police officers to be well looked after. Even when the senior officers ask for money for cigarette and other things they should not fail to pay.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairman, I now come to immigration. I am very disheartened with what is happening in this department. The procurement of uniforms is vital in this department. These ministers cannot tell me that they have never flown out of the country or crossed borders. I think the issue of uniforms should be looked into because most of our officers do not have uniforms. I heard the hon. Minister talking about increasing operations. Now, as a security department, officers need combat uniforms, they need suits and they need working uniforms. However, this is a department that has never been issued with combats. Then, how do you want these officers to go for operations? How do you want these officers to go bring out the desired achievements when you do not give them basic needs that they are supposed to use? We have 475 officers without combats. We must be more serious in what we are doing. I think we must stop joking when we look at the affairs of this nation. We have Members of Parliament who have complained in this House about the issues of casual workers. It does not take a minister to know who a casual worker is.

You just need to give a combat to an immigration assistant and he is going to flash out all the casual workers in this nation. In this way, we will create jobs for our youths. Most of our officers have no uniforms. The little uniforms that you see around are improvised. They have to buy for themselves. Is this the way we want to treat these officers? When are we going to appreciate their services?

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Singombe: Mr Chairperson, the K497 million is nothing compared to the work, which goes on in the department. Although this is a security department, it also collects a lot of revenue, but this Government has neglected it. Why?

Mr Nkhata interrupted

Mr Singombe: You do not know what an immigration officer is, Mr Minister. Let me teach you one or two things.

Laughter

Mr Singombe: This department has been given a target of K41 billion this year. I am sure and I have no doubt that this money will be released. Why do you neglect this department? Each time you given them a target they always go beyond the required target.

With regard to operations, the K120 million will not achieve any desired goals. Who will remove the 35,000 refugees scattered in this country? How do you want to affect these removals with only K120 million? Who is going to pay their allowances? Which transport are they going to use to remove all the 35,000 refugees inclusive of those who are still coming to this country? Can someone tell me the mathematics this Government is using to allocate this department with only K120 million?

You have commanded this department to go out and on clean up operations, but where is the money? The current K180 million for conducting operations is too little. If we want to create employment for our youths in this country, we need more money for this department. This is the only department which is going to deter the would-be foreigners. This is the only department which is going to make sure that chase ups are done in all the companies. However, if we do not empower this department, it means you are shooting yourselves in the foot.

Mr Chairperson, as regards transport, His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, is on record telling this nation when he came back from India that he was given a fleet of vehicles. In his speech, he reminded us that transport would be distributed to the Ministry of Defence, Zambia National Service, Police and Immigration. May I know how many vehicles were given to the Immigration Department?

Interruptions

Mr Singombe: Where are these vehicles? How many of these were given to the Immigration Department? Who defied the President’s order? Can we know? For your information, from Lusaka to Livingstone, there is no transport in between. What chase ups do you mean? There is no transport in Choma Immigration Department as I am talking today. There is no transport at Kalomo. How do you want them to do chase ups in Mapatizya? Who will go there? This Government has not even given a bicycle to immigration officers to enable them go to Mapatizya and conduct chase ups. From Kabwe, there is no transport in between. Only Kasama has transport.

Mr Muteteka: There is transport in Chisamba!

Mr Singombe: I said from Kabwe, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Singombe: I am saying Kabwe. It is before Chisamba. Revisit your civics.

Laughter

Mr Singombe: Mr Chairperson, from Lusaka, we do not have any transport. The next transport you find is in Chipata, but look at the control that we have in between. We need more transport to empower this department.

Sir, with regard to accommodation, it was surprising to find that this department was to construct units for border control officers at K150 million. What do you mean? Are you constructing chicken runs? How many houses and offices are you going to construct from K150 million? Are we serious about what we are doing?

Interruptions

Mr Singombe: Mr Speaker, another issue in this department is the establishment. I have said that we have only 475, 000 officers but look at the influx of foreigners in the country. We have thousands of people coming, but we only have 475, 000. We need this establishment enlarged. We want to investigate and know where some people came from. People like the hon. Member for Kabompo West, Mr Kalenga, who probably comes from Angola.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You shall not go that far, hon. Member of Parliament. Please get back on track.

Continue, please.

Mr Singombe: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry.

What I am trying to say is that the ministry should consider enlarging this department because we have too many foreigners coming into our country. We need breathing space or probably, we should employ more officers in this department. The number that we have currently cannot cope. We should not only talk of internal controls. The most dangerous criminals are coming from other countries and we know and it is on record that our borders are too porous. If we do not equip our officers and increase the establishment, it means the department will not contain the pressure there in.

Mr Chairperson …

Hon. Government Member: Finally!

Mr Singombe: Finally …

Hon. PF Members: No, continue!

Mr Singombe: The rule of the Payroll Management and Established Control System has given the Chief Immigration Officer headaches because most of the officers are left out. They do not even know their future. We need to capture the officers which are left out of this system because it cannot absorb the 475 officers. We need to at least broaden or give room. Simply because of this, you are telling me that the Immigration Department will not recruit.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Singombe: When we talk of job creation and if you cannot recruit in five years, it means you are doing nothing. I wonder where the youth on the streets will go. We heard that the Young Women Christian Association (YWCA) has sent a lot of street kids to colleges. Who is going to employ them if we cannot change the establishment of this department?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Chairman, I am also very grateful to add my voice to this very important ministry.

Mr Chairman, we can go round and round, but the end result is poverty in the Ministry of Home Affairs. We need to take action. I am talking on behalf of the people of Chadiza.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Chadiza has been in existence since 1932, but there is no police station up to today. They are operating from a house. How long are they going to operate from a house?

Now, when I looked at this budget, Chadiza has not been provided for. I hope we shall be considered during the supplementary budget.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: I humbly request that when the supplementary budget is brought to the House, we will all agree because the budget there is already a shortfall. On the news two days ago, the Permanent Secretary was complaining about the bullet proof jackets. He needs some more money which has not been allocated. This means that we will need a lot of money to purchase these things.

Not only this, the Police Force is top heavy in the sense that if you compare policemen in rural areas like in Chadiza and Shangombo with those in town, you will find that they have gone to the same colleges, but those in rural areas are suffering. They do not even know how a payment voucher or cheque from the Police Force looks like.

Hon. Members: Ah.

Mr Mbewe: Yes. When money is released from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, it does not filter to the districts. Why not get the system which the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and the Ministry of Education are using where money is posted directly from the source to the district? Under the Police Force, money goes to the province and for it to reach the district, it does not reach.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: If the hon. Minister and the Permanent Secretary have noted what I have said, I urge them to devise a system from the source to the district so that those people at the district can also buy paper, pens and make their operations move. If we do not adopt that system whereby money goes to the province, then we are going round and round and next year, we shall be where we are today.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Mr Chairman, I rise to support the expenditure relating to the Ministry of Home Affairs. In so doing, I would like to start by commenting on the operations of the Zambia Police.

The face of a police station is the inquiries office. When you go to the inquiries office, the first people you come into contact with are duty officers most of whom are demotivated, absent minded and one wonders whether they are on duty to serve us or show their low morale. I submit that the ministry should channel money towards motivating these officers. I know they work odd hours, but it is important because the job they are performing is important to the nation.

Now, you tell a duty officer that you have a complaint the first problem he will tell you is that he does not have ZP Form 43 which is a pad on which he records a statement. This is very common. Where are we going to if our police officers can not have stationery? I submit hon. Minister that while you are doing a commendable job, I urge you to channel more funds into this because this is the face of Zambia Police. Matters do not end there. After a statement is recorded, a docket is opened. You look at the folder they call a docket, it is loose papers. We can not have this. I submit hard working hon. Minister to pay attention to this aspect. You go to any police station and look at a docket, it is in a disgraceful state. We can do better, can we not? How many years is it after independence?

Once a docket is opened, the case or allegations has to be investigated. They have no transport and again, that is very common. We see motorcades with fifteen or seventeen motor vehicles, can we not rationalise the use of some of these motor vehicles?

The matter does not end there. You report a crime, you rarely see crime officers taking finger prints or photographs at the crime scene to analyse the evidence. I hope this time around, some money will be channeled in that direction because cases are lost because of shoddy investigations. The officers are adequately trained, but we do not give them the tools that they cry for day in day out. I hope with this money, we will support them.

We also need finger print experts. You go to a police station, look at the quality of equipment which they use for picking finger prints, it is deplorable. Some of them are pre-independence. Look at the tables, a table that was supplied in 1963 with NRG description on it. Do we not see these things? In support, I urge the hon. Minister to give Zambia Police a good face.

Not only that, on the issue of quality ballistic experts, most of them when they gave a record of the experience and training, they will say they were trained under Galloway for four weeks. I understudied him. We can do better. Let us train our officers. These officers work under difficult conditions earning low salaries. Why can we not motivate them by at least sending them for training?

As regards forensic pathologists, I am happy at least that K77 million has been allocated towards forensic sciences. I hope we will have forensic pathologists this time around. I know that Zambia Police used to have forensic pathologists based at the headquarters. This is one area which frustrates investigation of cases. I hope we can recruit more people. If we can not, let us train our own.

I would now like to move to the vote relating to the continuous registration of voters. I must commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for allocating some money to this important head. All of us have been elected and for a person to register as a voter, he must have a green national registration card. I would like to give you a pat on the back that this time round money has been set aside for the continuous issue of voters registration cards. I hope this exercise will be carried on properly and not based on parochial party consideration.

The other point I would like to talk about relates to voter registration. The amount of K60 million for Eastern Province, I think, is very little.

I think Eastern Province deserves a little more than K60 million. It is a vast province with many people. I hope that the Minister of Finance and National Planning is listening although he is facing somewhere, but the ear is facing me …

Mr Magande: No, address the Chair.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: … I am talking to the Chairman of course, but my eyes are looking in that direction.

Eastern Province as I said has a large population and to allocate K60 million is not fair. We have many complaints in Eastern Province, but at least, give us some money for continuous issuance of national registration cards. I know that you are not going to repair our roads, but, for now, give us sufficient money for the exercise.

The other point that I want to talk about is the National Archives. I note that this ministry has rightly been allocated K215 million for the extension of the building. This building really has been neglected and it is good that this time around, attention has been given to it.

The offices that are now occupied by the Registrar of Societies are not in good condition. I hope that some money could be found to bring up that building to acceptable standards. For those of us who go to that office, the first thing you see are chairs that were perhaps delivered some 20 to 15 years. I think we can do better, can we not?

On the whole, I would like to submit that if we are serious about combating crime in this country, we must take strong measures to ensure that the law enforcement wings, the investigating officers are adequately funded. I know that you have the Drug Enforcement Commission in place, which is good, but it is not adequately funded as can be evidenced due to insufficient transport. This is why most of the people they apprehend are those who grew chamba in villages. We expect them to catch sophisticated drug traffickers.

Therefore, I appeal with you to please take a sympathetic approach to this important wing of the ministry. We do not want a situation where the Drug Enforcement Commission specialises only in prosecuting cases of abuse of office instead of drug related cases.

For now, this is sufficient and I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who has been taking notes will ensure that he continues from where he left.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairman …

Mr Chibombamilimo: One side!

The Chairman: Order!

It is not one side. Let me make it clear. The Chair wants to be fair to everybody. There are some of you hon. Members who have spoken three or four times and it is only fair that we give chance to those of our colleagues who have not spoken. I am saying so, because I heard a remark from my right (Government side) saying one side. It is not true. I had a Mr Mbewe and somebody else. So, the Chair knows what it is doing.

Hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, when we stand to debate, it is not that we want to make the Government look like it is not doing anything. We just want to highlight problems that this Government has created.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, if you go to any police station in this country, you will find that the problems are the same just like what other hon. Members have alluded to here on the lack of transport. For instance, if thieves attack me in the night, policemen will instead ask me to provide transport for them to come to my rescue. In such a situation, how possible can that be? Is it not a shame?

All we are saying is that these are very critical people that need to be provided with adequate tools to be able to carry out their work. We should not only say that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is doing so much minus supporting him. We need to support the hon. Minister of Home Affairs by getting money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and take it to his ministry.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: We are passing an amendment and I am urging all hon. Members to support this amendment. We are going to transfer money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and take it to the Ministry of Home Affairs because that is where more money is needed.

Mr Chairman, Northern Province, the largest province in the country, has only been allocated K5.8 billion. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, please let us be fair.

Lusaka Province has been allocated K4.5 billion while North Western Province has K4.8 billion. Hon. Ministers in here, what are you doing and why are you agreeing to these figures?

Laughter

Mr L.J Mulenga: It is very unfair. Let us appropriate money accordingly.

Mr Chairman, this Government has allocated K625 billion for the rehabilitation of our shanty townships. If I were to calculate district by district assuming that there were 100 police stations, this translates into K1 million. So what are you going to rehabilitate? Do you want us to ask the Vice-President for more money from the Disaster Management Program again? Would that be fair on the part of the Vice-President for us to go to his under allocated finances asking for funds to rehabilitate houses that are collapsing? You need to put money to needy areas where it belongs. That is all we are saying. We have no arguments with this Budget, but all we are saying is that we are going to transfer money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to where it is supposed to be.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, on the issue of uniforms, you have allocated K3.5 billion. How many uniforms are we going to purchase with this little money? The man has no shoes or vehicle, but that is the man you expect to combat crime.

Mr Kapeya: I think lila fye.

Mr Mulenga: You are not being fair. Let us be honest to our people. Policemen need to be rewarded adequately.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: We have a nation here called Zambia. If we do not protect this Zambia, Chinese will come, Indians will come …

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: They will come and take over. We need to equip them …

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: … so that our national integrity is protected.

Interruptions

Mr Mulenga: Sir, immigration officers need to be empowered. You do not expect the Immigration Department not to have transport.

Mr Kapeya: Hammer!

Mr Mulenga: How do they operate? How do they function? Let is be honest. We can decide and agree on some of these things ourselves in here. When we decide- I hope the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is listening so that we divert some money from- we are not trying to increase his budget- we just want to remove money from certain activities that are inactive and take it to priority areas.

Mr Kapeya: Exactly!

Hon. PF Members: Animals, animals!

Mr Mulenga: I do not want to talk about animals.

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: I want to talk about activities that you allocate and appropriate in this Yellow Book.

Mr Chairperson, you appropriate money here. We want all the money that is appropriated. Even as we discuss and approve this budget, all activities must be spent accordingly. We do not want to be told that there was less domestic borrowing and, therefore, the economy improved. You only neglected certain activity areas. We are spending- that is unacceptable.

For once in this Zambia, can we do things that are correct?

I rest my case and I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Thank you, Mr Chairperson for giving me an opportunity to be part of the debate on the Ministry of Home Affairs.

I am impressed and I appreciate the concern that was shown by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs when he visited a police officer who was shot by thieves in the hospital. He suggested that police officers needed to be protected and he has included it in the Yellow Book. For this task, Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha, we say thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: While we appreciate this gesture, we expect our officers, also, to support the hon. Minister. At times, police officers let us down in certain situations. Once you protect them, they start abusing the facilities.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Sikazwe: We are here to rule and administer the Government. The hon. Minister mentioned that he is in line to recruiting more police officers. By 2015, we expect to have 27,000 police officers.

Mr Kambwili: Iwe natumfwa kale ifyo. Akulandako ifyo be!

Mr Sikazwe: In this regard, I would like to thank the Government for its policy of partnership with the private sector.

Sir, let me confirm that I am one of the beneficiaries of the Government’s policy of partnership with the private sector. In my rural constituency (Chimbamilonga), Impende Fisheries has built a modern police station in Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: I stand and say what is correct and good and, whichever is wrong, I have to defend it.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Hon. Minister, a lot of things have been done and this police station is very modern, but I do not have good accommodation for the officers.

At the moment, the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has given us enough accommodation, but they need rehabilitation. Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) officers used to occupy those houses. However, they need funding for the rehabilitation so that police officers can stay in a better environment.

Mr Chapman …

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: I want to submit to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Order! Continue.

Mr Sikazwe … to consider this. I propose an increment for the Ministry of Home Affairs. We would like to move the police officers from Lilayi and Kanfinsa to settle in rural constituencies including those for the Opposition.

Mr Kambwili: Finshi ulelanda iwe!

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, rural constituencies are facing a problem of staffing. We need you to fund that ministry so that we recruit more officers so that in the next years, the entire nation will be under the security of Home Affairs.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: We would like to propose that the assistance of the neighbourhood personnel must be reduced so that the cleaning of the police service is felt everywhere in Zambia.

Mr Kambwili: Uleipekanya pa kwima not ukwima ichimeime.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the Immigration Department. Nsumbu Border is near the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). It has been there for the past 45 years. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to complete the construction of the houses at that border post.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: This is the reason why I propose an increment from K150 million to billions because we have a lot of work to be done. That money is there for the Government to develop this country.

Hon. UDA Members: Quality!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, ever since I reached this age …

Mr Kambwili: Iye!

Mr Sikazwe: I have never had a chance of reading a paper that was written in 1912.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: I had a chance of going to the National Archives where I learnt that it is one of the best departments in the Ministry of Home Affairs. This Department must be part of the tourism sector to attract foreigners to see what is in stock for Zambia.

Mr Kambwili: Yaba!

Mr Sikazwe: Kambwili, this is the National Archives- you will be very impressed for your good memory and vocabulary.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, the National Archives has a very good setting and a good building.

Mr Kambwili: Mwalebafumya kwisa mudala aba?

Mr Sikazwe: We need to complete that building which is worth K3 billion, but the allocation of K215 million is very small. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning could you allocate more funds to this projects? We are losing a lot of material and literature which we need to stock properly for tomorrows consultations and reading for the future.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, this place needs to be refurbished. I have appreciated the technology which is there. It is the latest in Zambia and worldwide- the production of topography maps. There is a good system. They have kept the music system for the past 100 years. They have brought all the papers- That assistance from Swedish International Development Agency (SIDA) must be extended to the completion of the building itself.

Mr Ntundu: Hammer!

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, I go to the Immigration Department.

Mr Kambwili: Balekutunfya fye!

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, as I mentioned earlier, the infrastructure development of the Immigration Department has been given K300 million. We cannot even build two houses with that. I rise to support the increment on this budget allocation. We need more immigration officers because the areas bordering DRC are still under pressure. It is just the intervention of Zambia National Service (ZNS) and Zambia Army that have reduced the levels of prohibited immigrants in those areas. Are they professional enough to tackle the Immigration Department? The answer is no. We need accommodation to employ more immigration officers in the borders.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Northern Province is the biggest province, but we have just K29 million allocated for the police in the province. Sir, Sub-head 1, Programme 2, Activity 01, Inspection of Police Stations – K91, 500, 000.

Hon. Minister, I would love you to tour the Province with one of these people (Opposition Members of Parliament), you will see the distance from the headquarters to my constituency.

Sir, the distance that people cover is about 500km and when you reach the border, you have to board a boat. Nobody can walk that distance, even Hon. Lubinda who is talking about kilometres from there to the Parliament Buildings cannot manage to travel such a distance.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am very concerned about the security of this country, and as such, there is need for us to put in more money in the Immigration Department and also increase the staff. They may have been included there, but the allocation for fuel is too little. As a Government, we know that money is there, but the allocation for fuel is just too little. In this regard, we have to find more money for this vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, sometimes it is good to be given different names, especially if you do not speak so frequently.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make my contribution on the Ministry of Home Affairs vote. I do not know where this notion of under funding the security wings has come from. I say so because it appears it is very alien to us. I do not think that we really prioritise our areas. The Ministry of Home Affairs and specifically the police need a lot of support. Of late, there has been an increase in the level of crime in this country. There has been an increase in the manner in which criminals carry out their business. That is one of the reasons why we require the police in this country. In this regard, the police need sufficient funding in order for them to operate effectively.

Mr Chairperson, I know that at times, the Government does not collect as much revenue as they would like to. Even then, there should be priority in the funding of institutions such as the police. I live next to Lilayi Police Training School and at times, I take a walk and see what is happening there.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation at Head 11/03 – Programme 02 - Activity 04 - Maintenance of Buildings, the figure of K151,300,000 .00 does not make much sense to me because many of the buildings at Lilayi Police Training School are older than me.

Laughter

Major Chibamba: Surely you cannot put K151, 300, 000 for the rehabilitation of such dilapidated infrastructure at Lilayi Police Training School. Those buildings do not need rehabilitation, they need to be demolished and replaced altogether. I wish to concur with my colleague Hon. Mulenga, that there is great need for us as Parliamentarians to vary some of the funding allocated to undeserving activities. If we are going to post policemen and women from Lilayi, where they have been staying in dilapidated buildings to places such as Shiwang’andu, Sinazongwe, Namwala and Chadiza where there are no buildings at all, these police officers will not perform expected. It is important for us to realise that it does not pay to under fund certain institutions.

Sir, we all know that the police do not have good uniforms and they have been like that for a very long time. How can a worker enjoy his job if he cannot dress smartly or is not paid well? What is there to be proud of if someone cannot get back home with a loaf of bread and have tea with his family? I am sure the majority of us can debate bearing in mind that there is a policeman out there who is taking full charge of our security.

Sir, it is important that we first look at Lilayi Police Training School. It is a source of the brains that we are employing in the nation. Let us give the policeman something to be proud of. Those of us who have been in uniform before including the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will agree with me. It is very demoralising to walk out shabbily dressed. Living in squalor quarters, you cannot expect the police to perform to expectation. At least if their pay is poor, certain conditions of service like accommodation should be improved. I think it has just become a habit because all the time, police officers have to look for provisions using other means.

Sir, due to this fact, I was not surprised when, the other day in town, I was robbed of my valuables. I noticed that there were some policemen standing next to me and they did not do anything. I even suspected that the policemen were part of the gang that attacked me. I think they were just celebrating and saying I was just like Hon. Shikapwasha who did not listen to their plight. I think that is what they were saying. Nonetheless, I am sure we can still move a kilometre further.

Sir, I am also worried about the state of police animals in the force. I am talking about dogs and horses. 

Those are very useful tools in the police force. They can be used for so many operations.. Therefore, they must be properly trained and properly looked after. We must also make sure that we reduce the current animal conflict in terms of who is getting what.

Mr Chairperson, horses are supposed to be very graceful animals. We have experienced a situation where His Excellency the President comes here escorted by mounted police.

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I was shocked when I looked at the sort of horses. They are almost dying. They are limping and have patches here and there, but they are escorting His Excellency. This is a challenge to us. It is a big challenge.

First of all, the stables where they are kept have never been disinfected for a very long time. Secondly, these are animals which do not receive supplements in terms of food unlike the animals at State House…

Laughter

Major Chibamba:...which depend on grass from the surroundings. Is it not so? There is food supplement there. The horses depend on whoever is looking after them. It looks like you do not have sufficient funding to give to this particular department. Sikanze Police Camp…

Mr Shakafuswa busy talking to the Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha).

Major Chibamba: Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, I am trying to address the Minister of Home Affairs. Please give me chance.

The Chairperson: Order! Yes, I agree with Hon. Major Chibamba. Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, please give the hon. Minister of Home Affairs time to listen.

Major Chibamba: Sir, I thank you, for that guidance.

Mr Shakafuswa went back to his seat.{mospagebreak}

Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that when he tours Sikanze Police Camp, he should extend his tour to the stables. Those animals are in pathetic conditions. They are a sorry sight. We need extra funding to look after those animals.

Like I said, they are very brave in nature. Even the dogs in the kernels need to be properly looked after because they will need veterinary services. Those animals should not appear when His Excellency the President is coming here in the state I saw them. I do not want to see that. It is a big shame and a disgrace on our part. As Zambians, we should not be cruel to animals. They must be well looked after.

Finally, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has been issuing friendly statements when hon. Members approach him. I want to say what I know. I would also like to say some of you hon. Members, not necessarily Hon. General Shikapwasha, but other hon. Members that side must begin to consider yourselves as possible leaders for this nation.

Major Chibamba pointed to the right side of the House.

When that time comes, you will have to look this side as well.

Major Chibamba pointed to the Opposition side.

You will have to look to this side for support. Therefore, let us work together. We will support you and we will also support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. What we would like to see is that money is put in needy areas. We need police posts all over the country especially in my constituency where we have provided electricity, water and other necessary infrastructure.

I am sure that in fact, at district level, there is a request that has come to the Ministry Headquarters. It must be received and acted upon almost immediately. It improves the efficiency of the police posts and creates a wonderful atmosphere in the entire ministry.

Therefore, I want to say that let us not ignore what all hon. Members of Parliament have said about any ministry. The critical aspect is that we must not under fund sectors which are critical to the welfare of our people.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, let me first of all thank you for giving us an opportunity for us to debate the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Police.

Let me also thank all hon. Members of Parliament starting from Hon. Kasongo who opened the debate on a very positive note and gave so many wonderful suggestions for us to take into account as we move this budget and indeed the implementation of this budget.

Let me also thank Hon. Matongo for the many areas that he has touched.  Indeed, we intend to deal with those areas. I would also like to thank all hon. Members who have debated so well to support my ministry. I thank you in the sense that we are seeing this ministry in the same focus as I the minister and the rest of my staff. We shall continue to put resources in place so that you also can also see where these resources are going.

Let me tell you that we have a policy in the ministry encouraging hon. Members of Parliament to mobilise communities to build police posts and where they have capacity to build police stations, my ministry will render support with a number of materials such as cement and iron sheets to enhance these areas of operations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, let me just make one or two corrections.

Mr Singombe, I would like to thank you for the many areas that have been pointed out in the debate. However, I want to tell you that immigration officers no longer buy their uniforms. We have gotten on top of that situation and the uniforms are better and I can tell you that we are moving towards purchasing combats for them in this budget as you support us.

Hon. Chifumu Banda, I would like to thank you for the wonderful support. We will improve on the enquiries. Indeed, the first cut is the deepest. When you approach the police and you find out that police officers at the enquiries desk are not looking well, it does not motivate them.  My ministry will do everything possible to motivate them. We are going ahead with reviewing their allowances and conditions of service in order for them to be motivated.

I am sorry for Hon. Major Chibamba that the police were not there to help you recover your valuables. I hope that the thieves will not bother you again. I am sure the thieves who stole your bibles are Christians.

As a minister, it is my humble duty to visit all the constituencies once we go on recess so that we can see the position of the police and other agencies in my ministry. Indeed, I shall visit the stables and the dog kernels in order to ensure that these animals are dealt with.

Sir, there was an observation that there is too much money in one particular vote for international travel. This is because we have consolidated all the activities of all the agencies in my ministry under that vote so that we can control it.

Mr Chairperson, I thank all hon. Members for supporting the vote.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

VOTE 11/01 − (Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters − K117, 183, 840, 560)

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Sub–Head 14, Programme 3, Activity 07 − Staff Welfare − K460,000,000. I would like to find out what this amount is for.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, there is a question on page 56, if I followed him correctly, Programme 3 − Financial Management, Activity 07 − Staff Welfare. He wants to know what that figure is for.

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, this is for the loans taken by our officers as a morale booster.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 11/01 − Zambia Police − Headquarters, under Sub–Head 14 – Human Resource Administration Unit (Accounts), Programme 3 − Financial Management, Activity 07 − Staff Welfare, by the deletion of K460, 000, 000.00 and the substitution therefor of K390,000,000.00. I seek support from the Minister.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, we have no objection to the amendment.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Sub–Head 1, Programme 8  − Implementation of various Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP), Activities 01  − Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K1,200,000,000, 02 – Grading of Camp Roads – K1,150,000,000, 03 – Cell Rehabilitation – K1650,000,000, and 04 – Rehabilitation of police Stations – K2,000,000,000. All these allocations have been reduced. Why have we reduced when we want to improve the welfare of police officers?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, these are areas where we think we can commence to do the work and that in the next budget we can increase the allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-Head 1, Programme 7 – General Operations, Activity 09 – SARPCCO Meetings – K250,000,000. This amount has been allocated to SARPCCO Meetings, but if we go to Sub–Head 12 Human Resource and Administration Unit (Sport), Programme 7, Activity 01 – SARPCCO Games – K249,852,119 SARPCCO Games means that a lot of officers will go for these games than those who will go for the meetings, but have been allocated a lot of money. Why?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, this year, Zambia is the Chairman for Southern Africa Police. This is the SARPCCO Commissioners, and therefore, we are going to host the annual conference as well as sports. Hence, the money for hosting the entire conference is going to be higher than just for officers going to attend the meeting.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, I do not know how this budget was done, however, I seek clarification on Sub-Head 1, Programme 8, Activities 01  − Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K1,200,000,000, 02 – Grading of Camp Roads – K1,150,000,000, 03 – Cell Rehabilitation – K1650,000,000, and 04 – Rehabilitation of police Stations – K2,000,000,000. All these activities have been given equal amounts. I do not know what they took into account to allocate the same amount to these activities.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chota is very observant. It is only that all these activities wear the same uniform.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I wish to draw the attention of the Hon. Minister to Sub-Head 11, Programme 5, Activity 01 – In-Service Training – K100,000,000. I am wondering why we have these figures. Activity 02 – Training (Colleges and Universities) for Police Officers – K300,000,000, Activity 03 – Overseas Training for Police Officers – K100,000,000, which is only sufficient for one officer depending on the kind of training. Could the hon. Minister focus on something so that we have officers trained? The figures we have allocated are not adequate.

The Deputy Chairperson: It seems that was more or less a comment rather than a question. However, if you have something to say hon. Minister, you can go ahead.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, our emphasis is on localising our training to cut down on the cost of sending officers abroad. Of course, we shall continue to send officers overseas with the participation of our Co-operating Partners like the United Nations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-Head 1, Programme 8, Activity 04 – Cell Rehabilitation – K1,650,000,000. I want to find out how this activity is related to poverty reduction activity.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, the capacity building and improvement of conditions in the cells reduce chances of diseases and chances of our people being poverty stricken, and hence, it is a poverty reduction programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Singombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub–Head 23, Programme 7 – Health Management, Activity 02. May I know why there has been no allocation for procurement of ARVs in this year’s budget?

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Musosha: Mr Chairman, it has been announced by the Ministry of Health that there is going to be free distribution of ARVS to every citizen in this country and so there is no need to budget for them.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 3, Programme 7, Activity 03 – Provide and Preserve Evidence of Chemical Nature – K700,000,000, the allocation for last year was K1,750,000. Could the hon. Minister give details of what evidence of chemical nature will be preserved considering the huge increase from K1,750,000.00 to K700,000,000?

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 3, Programme 7, Activity 03 – Provide and Preserve Evidence of Chemical Nature – K700,000,000.00, like I mentioned in my policy debate, we are moving the police to a higher level of technical ability for them to be able to move to preserving evidence and this is why last year, it was commenced and this year we are moving to buying and ensuring that this activity is taken care of.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 21, Programme 7, Activity 2 – Procurement of Traffic Equipment – K35,800,000.00, I would like the hon. Minister to shade light on this amount because it is too little compared to the number of accidents we have in this country …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Nsanda you are debating, can you just go straight to the question.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Chairman, I just want to compare this amount to the amount for riot equipment which is K309 million when we do not have riots everyday, yet cars move on a daily basis.

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 21, Programme 7, Activity 2 – Procurement of Traffic Equipment – K35,800,000.00, this is part of the threshold  for us to pay for the equipment that we have. As for the riot equipment, we have to replace as the equipment we have is old.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/01, as amended ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/03 − (Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training School − K11,501,809,167.00).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on Head 11/03 Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training

(i) Under 1: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2: General Administration, Activity 01: Training, by the deletion of K10,000,000.00 and the substitution therefore of K80,000,000.00.

Mr Mwansa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order on the Government, whether it is correct for them to allow the Minister of Home Affairs to give us answers from his head when his staff should have given him a file that contains explanations and details of the Vote. Is this Government in order to continue punishing the hon. Minister by making him answer questions from his head?

Mr Mbewe: He is intelligent!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Procedurally, there is nothing wrong, it is correct. Could the hon. Member, continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on Head 11/03 Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training

(i) Under 1: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2: General Administration, Activity 01: Training, by the deletion of K10,000,000.00 and the substitution therefore of K80,000,000.00.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, it seems there was an agreement that we reduce staff welfare by K70,000.00 and I was wondering where Hon. Lubinda and the hon. Minister were putting it. That is what they have moved to Lilayi for training and so it goes from K10,000,000 to K80,000,000 and so I agree to item number (i). As for item (ii) …

The Deputy Chairperson: We have not come to that yet.

Amendment to item (i) agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, that man cannot argue an amendment he has not heard.

Mr Mbewe: It was circulated iwe!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move a further amendment on Head 11/03 Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training School.

(ii) Under 1: Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 2: General Administration, Activity 04: Maintenance of Buildings, by the deletion of K151,300,000.00 and the substitution therefore of K451,300,000.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I am not sure where this amount of money is coming from. If you look at the total police allocation, there is an addition of K67 billion that is shown on page 82. If Hon. Lubinda is trying to move some figures within there, I have no objection. Our tradition, when discussing Estimates, is not to increase figures without indicating where those amounts are coming from. I and my officials and, indeed, Cabinet have a lot of problems in re-writing the Budget if we do not know where these moneys are coming from.

Mr Chairman, it is not an easy job, next week we will be going through all the revenue Acts which are being considered and we have already presented them to this House and it is not an easy thing to add up numbers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, last week I was told through the press that the Budget was very easy to write, but today, I am being told that it is not so easy after all. I would like to state that it should not be the expedience of writing the Budget over the needs and priorities of the society. I think what is important is the needs of the people and not the amount of work this is going to create.

Mr Chairman, the very reason the Budget is brought to this House is so that the hon. Members sitting in here can have the opportunity to amend the Budget to suite the aspirations of the people, irrespective of how much work it would create. I would like to state that it is the practice of this House and I am sure Hon. Magande knows that just as much as the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services knows. It is practice of this House not to amend a vote unless it is on the Order Paper. The head that is on the order paper today is the Ministry of Home Affairs and that is what I am addressing. Therefore, I am proposing not an increase in the budget. Hon. Magande, the time will come when I shall show you where I am getting the K300 million. If you would like, Mr Chairman, I am willing to discuss where I am proposing an amendment.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, Hon. Lubinda has said exactly the procedure. We make amendments to vote under discussion. So, can he tell me under Vote 11, where he is getting the K300 million. He is telling me we only make amendments either by subtraction or addition. He is adding K300 million. Can he tell us under the same vote where he has found the K300 million. He should not say he will come to tell us when we come to a head which we are not discussing now. That is not procedural.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I am standing before you and this is the sixth year that I have been here. Over the last six years I have moved a lot of amendments. I want to say, it is not procedural for me to amend a vote that is not yet presented on the Order Paper. I am only limited to amending a head that is on the Order Paper. Now, I said earlier that if hon. Magande would like to know where I propose an amendment when the head comes on the order paper I will say that I want to amend the Ministry of Finance and National Planning the allocation to staff welfare where he has allocated a huge amount of K2.13 billion, an increase of more than K1.3 billion from the amount of K834 million that was allocated last years, 2006. When the Ministry of Finance and National Planning budget comes, I shall move another amendment to balance his budget. So, he ought not to worry about where I will get the money from. I am talking about getting money from where it is unnecessarily being locked up when the police in Lilayi are sleeping in...

The Deputy Chairman: Please, let us not begin the debate.

Mr Lubinda: …because of the greed of the Minister of Finance and National Planning. So, it is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning that is going to release the K300 million which shall go to the maintenance of the houses at Lilayi Training School where we are supposed to be training 27,000 police officers. The shortfall that we have in this country is 27,000 police officers.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: So, Sir, I have stated I am not by the Standing Orders, I cannot circulate an amendment to a vote which is not on the Order Paper. The only one I have circulated today is for the Ministry of Home Affairs and when the time comes, I shall circulate an amendment to reduce the allocation in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning under the vote of staff welfare.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, Hon. Lubinda is already anticipating a reduction on a vote which has not come before the House. He has not asked anybody on this side to explain the expenditure on that vote. I could tell you that the vote might be for car loans including for the police. Why are you saying Lilayi is more important than giving car loans for the police who are already on discussion now? The staff welfare under my ministry is not only for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning staff. It is for the whole civil service. You do not know the details of that until we come to that particular expenditure vote. So, you cannot start subtracting something that you have not discussed and you do not understand.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members we cannot go on indefinitely, I will give the Floor to Hon. Lubinda and then I will put the question.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I want to prove to Hon. Magande that I know what I am talking about. The money allocated to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for staff welfare is not for police because the Ministry of Home Affairs also has allocations for staff welfare. It is as easy as that Hon. Magande. I want to say that we come into this House, as equal and nobody should assume that they are the repository of wisdom or knowledge on how Zambia must be governed. That is the duty of all of us in this House.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is a reason why the Constitution provides for this House to approve the budget. I want to state that much as he would say to me that this is money for motor vehicles and so on, I am arguing that it is more expedient to spend money to build accommodation for our police officers than to give ourselves loans for motor vehicles.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is my point. So, he can say to me…

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is Hon. Lubinda in order to state that we are equal and have equal knowledge with regard to the preparation of the budget when we…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Chituwo: …when it is us who have prepared the budget and we have explanatory notes. Is he in order to state that we do not know what we have prepared? I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairman.

The Deputy Chairman: Mr Lubinda, please, can you take that point of order into account as you debate.

Continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Sir…

The Deputy Chairman: Be brief.

Mr Lubinda: I will be brief. The author of our Constitution knew that the executive would come with a budget and that budget would be debated by this House. From what I am hearing it is as though this House should be transformed into a rubberstamp on the basis that the people on your left have no knowledge of how they arrived with figures in the budget. That is wrong.

Secondly, on a matter of procedure, Sir, how else would you expect this House to increase allocations in the budget if you cannot consider making amendments to heads that are yet to be presented? How else would you do it? If we go by that, it means that all of us in here should declare that this budget is sacrosanct. It is casting stone and iron. We should therefore not even waste people’s time debating here. We should today adjourn sine die and say that Hon. Magande and his Government have already decided and what is in here is what they want.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think that we are reopening the debate. Can I …

Ms Mumbi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am not granting a point of order. I am putting the question.

Hon. PF Members called for the division.

Question that Vote 11/03 ─ Zambia Police ─ Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Lilayi Police Training ─ K151,300,000.00 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes ─ (49)

Mr C K B Banda
Mr E M Banda
Mr Beene
Mr Bwalya 
Mr Chanda 
Mr Chella 
Major Chibamba 
Mr Chimumbwa 
Mr Chisala 
Dr Chishya
Ms Chitika 
Mr Chitonge 
Mr Chongo 
Mr Chota 
Mr Hamusonde 
Ms Imbwae 
Mr Kambwili 
Mr Kapeya 
Mr Kasoko 
Dr Katema 
Mr Katuka 
Mr Lubinda 
Dr Machungwa 
Mr Malama 
Ms Masiye 
Mr Matongo
Mr Mooya 
Mr Msichili 
Mr Mtonga 
Mr Mukanga 
Mr C Mulenga 
Mr L P J Mulenga 
Ms Mumbi 
Mr Mushili 
Mrs Musokotwane
Ms Mwamba 
Mr E C Mwansa 
Mr Mweemba 
Mr Mwenya 
Mr D Mwila 
Dr Njobvu 
Mr Nsanda 
Mr Nyirenda 
Ms N J M Phiri 
Reverend Sampa-Bredt 
Dr Scott 
Mr Sikota 
Mr Simama 
Mr Sing’ombe

Tellers for Ayes:

Mr Simbao
Mr Mukanga

 

Noes ─ (62)

Mr Akakandelwa 
Mr A Banda 
Mr N K Banda 
Mr Bonshe 
Mr Chazangwe 
Mr Chibombamilimo 
Mr Chilembo 
Mr Chinyanta 
Mr Chipungu 
Dr Chituwo 
Ms Cifire 
Mr Daka 
Mr Hamir 
Mr Imasiku 
Mr Kaingu 
Mr Kalenga 
Dr Kalumba 
Mr Kakusa 
Mr Kazonga 
Mr Kunda 
Mr Liato 
Ms Limata 
Ms Lundwe 
Professor Lungwangwa 
Mr Machila 
Mr Magande 
Mr Mangani 
Ms Masebo 
Mr Mbewe 
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Milupi
Mr Misapa 
Mr Mpombo 
Mr Mubika 
Mr Muchima 
Mr Mufalali 
Ms Mulasikwanda 
Mr Mulonga 
Mr Musosha 
Mr Muteteka 
Mr Mwaanga 
Mr M B Mwale 
Mr V Mwale 
Mr Mwanza 
Mr Mwapela 
Mr Namulambe 
Ms Njapau 
Mr Nkhata 
Reverend Nyirongo 
Mr Phiri D B 
Dr Puma 
Mr Shakafuswa 
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha 
Mr Sichilima 
Mr Sichamba 
Mr Sikazwe 
Mr Silawve 
Mr Simbao 
Mr Sinyinda 
Mr Taima 
Mr F R Tembo 
Ms V Tembo

Tellers for Noes:

Mrs Musokotwane 
Mr Liato

Question accordingly negatived.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, you will recall that when we went for a division, we were about to break for tea. Now that we have finished with the division, we will suspend business for fifteen minutes.

Business was suspended from 1835 hours until 1850 hours.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 11/04 – (Zambia Police-Ministry of Home Affairs-State House Police –K8. 989,418,737.00).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairman, under Sub-head 4-Operations Unit, Programme 7, Activity 01 – VIP Protection, I would like to find out what has prompted this increase. We have an increase from K139.500, 000 to K1.439,500,000.00. I want to find out what VIP protections are increasing.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, there is an improvement on equipment holding for VIP protection.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 11/11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Central Province –K11. 425, 302, 892.00).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, on Programme 7, Activity – 01 – Reduction of Crime – K82, 000, 000, I would like to find out why we are having a reduction in the amount of money allocated to this vote. We had K100, 379, 404 last year, but this year, we are proposing K82, 000, 000 reduction and we want crime to be reduced. I seek clarification.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Musosha): Mr Chairman, on Programme 7, Activity 01 - Reduction of Crime – K82, 000, 000, you will note that the amount is not being reduced as such. If you look in the welfare of police, some amounts have been reduced to increase on the welfare itself, especially in the provision of mealie meal to our officers.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, from the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister, the welfare revolving fund is about K10, 000, 000, so even if you add K10, 000, 000 to K82, 000, 000, there will still be a reduction. May I have a proper answer?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, the previous answer is the best that we can give.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can I appeal to those on my right to listen. You are disturbing the whole importance of the budget. You have to listen. Otherwise, you are not paying attention.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand par of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE − 15/04 (Ministry of Home Affairs − Archives − K1,790,785,213.00).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Sub-head 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 − Archives Building Extension, by the deletion of K215,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K315,000,000.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, while we appreciate the need for us to continue constructing the new building, the amendment at this moment is not in order to the rest of the budget allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, you heard earlier this afternoon that about seven Members of Parliament on either side of the House debated the National Archives. Each one of them, including the Minister of Home Affairs when he was giving his policy debate, lamented the fact that the construction of the National Archives Building has taken such a very long time. Because of that the work of the officers at the National Archives is being affected.

Furthermore, the record management at the National Archives is drastically affected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda, make your point succinctly. Otherwise, we are opening debate.

Mr Lubinda: Yes, Sir, I would like to convince my colleagues and I can only do that if I give them the rationale why …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, just come straight to the argument, otherwise, we are …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, the National Archives serves as the memory of Zambia. I want to remind you that three week ago, in answering a question that I posed, the Vice-President said that they did not have sufficient time to research and yet I had put the question in October. The reason for that is because the memory of the nation is not functioning very well. It is not functioning because we are not allocating the required resources to the National Archives Department. That is the reason, Sir, why I am asking for a very modest increase of only K100 million.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): I just wanted to say that this amendment is not acceptable to Government and that is the Government’s position.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Question put and amendment negatived.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You know this is a budget. If we are going to do what we are doing- I am particularly concerned that this is coming from my right and yet we are considering a budget proposed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

VOTE − 15/05(Ministry of Home Affairs – Immigration Department − (K120,000,000).

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Sir, may I have clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 7, Activity 04 – Procuring of Water and Land Transport Facilities – K120,000,000. I would like to know specific areas were these water and land transport facilities are targeted.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, we are slowly starting to target all areas where immigration operations are taking place like in Luapula and on the Lake Kariba and in many other areas we have border posts and are unable to access by water. This is what we have put this money for.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/06 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – National Registration Department – K17,207,846,970.00)

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I seek clarification on Programme 7 – Issuance of National Identity Documents – Activities 01 and 02. I wonder why there is a reduction of close to K6 billion in the office of the National Registration Department for mobile registration and continuous registration for the issuance of National Registration Cards. What is the reason for that reduction? I request Sir, that as I put the question, Hon. Magande must not be insulting me like he is doing.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I want to make a clarification. You know, this way the Chair always advises that when we are dealing with serious business like this, I think it is better that we concentrate on what we are discussing because the Chair is concentrating as well. The Chair cannot hear the running commentaries. When you ask for a point of order on a particular issue, I will not notice because I am busy and I want us to proceed. Therefore, you are distracting my attention. In short, I am appealing to hon. Members not to make running commentaries. The hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs will continue.

Mr Musosha: Mr Chairperson, I think on both sides of this House, you will agree with me that prior to the general elections, mobile elections…

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. I am not known for insulting anybody. Is the hon. Member for Kabwata in order to say I uttered insulting words in this House without substantiating what I said?

The Deputy Chairperson: Unfortunately, that point of order has come at a time when the Chair had already made comments. In this case, that point of order has been overtaken by events because the Chair had made some comments before that point of order was raised. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs can continue.

Mr Musosha: Sir, I was saying that both sides of this House will agree with the ministry’s involvement in this important exercise. Prior to the general elections, the ministry conducted widely the mobile registration of all citizens, preparing for general elections. You will agree with me that there is need to reduce in this area.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, if I remember correctly, most of the…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_____________
The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 8th March, 2007.

 

 

 

Wednesday, 7th March, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

__________

QUESTIONS

HIPC COMPLETION POINT BENEFITS

350. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what the benefits of the country’s attainment of the HIPC Completion Point were to ordinary Zambians as a result.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Madam Speaker, HIPC stands for Heavily Indebted Poor Countries and Zambia was designated so in the early 1990s after its debt to the international community became unsustainable. This came about due to borrowing by the Government of the Republic of Zambia starting from 1973. Loans borrowed were used to build social facilities such as schools, hospitals and roads.

Madam Speaker, some of the loans were used to import food items like wheat making. Madam Speaker, all these loans benefited the ordinary people and ordinary Zambians and things like wheat which was brought in was used to make bread which was consumed by Zambians.

Madam Speaker, some of the schools and clinics which most of us attended were also as a result of these loans which the Government got. In the early 1990s, Zambia borrowed heavily in order to pay arrears of debt and imports. These loans assisted in removing the long queues for essential commodities such as soap and salt.

Hon. Machungwa would really want to hear that when MMD came into power, queues for essential commodities became a thing of the past and this is how some of these loans helped. The loans, therefore, benefited ordinary Zambians in that essential goods became plentiful in shops. The debt acquired for social and other infrastructure and for importing goods since 1973 had to be repaid by the Zambian Government over a long time. Some debts had a repayment period of 50 years. Unfortunately, the country’s foreign currency earnings dropped in the 1990s after the collapse of the mining industries. This made it difficult for Zambia to service the loans.

Madam Speaker, the country was then designated as a heavily indebted poor country with limited ability to pay back the huge international loan stock which had risen to US$7.2 billion by 2004. With such a huge debt, it was difficult to borrow more money. In order to assist the country with its debt burden, the creditors decided that the country should be under a programme of financial management which was to be supervised by the creditors. This programme called the Poverty Reduction Gross Facility (PRGF) will be under the enhanced HIPC Initiative organised by the IMF, World Bank and other creditors.

If the country managed this programme properly over the three years period, then it would reach the completion point of the HIPC Initiative and an amount of US$3.8 billion of its debt would be written off. In December 2000, Zambia qualified and was given a set of fifteen conditions to fulfil in order to reach the HIPC Completion Point. Zambia started implementing the new PRGF programme in January 2001 and was expected to reach the completion point in 2003. Among the conditions was that the country must be up to date with all loan repayments. This meant that instead of investing in development projects, the country had to use any available revenue for debt repayment. This resulted in inadequate revenue to invest in education, health and roads. Teachers and health personnel could not be recruited, while many roads remained un-repaired.

In fact, due to implementation slippages, the programme failed and by June 2003, Zambia had not reached the completion point and the debt could not be written off. The country continued to service the huge debt. In 2004, an amount of US$110 million or approximately K440 billion was paid to international creditors. A fresh arrangement was then made for the country to get back onto the HIPC Initiative by adhering to the fifteen conditions. The Zambian Government resolved in July 2003 to implement the creditor supervised financial management programme.

By December 2004, most of the conditions had been fulfilled and Zambia qualified to reach the completion point in April 2005. An amount of US$3.8 billion was written off as promised and a new programme to write off the remaining debt was implemented. By the end of 2006, a total of US$6.8 billion out of US $7.2 billion debt had been written off.

The implementation of the PRGF and reaching the HIPC Completion Point is a great benefit to all Zambians as the country’s debt stock has been reduced to about US$600 million. The following are the actual loan repayments between 2003 and 2006 and projections for 2007 to 2009.

Year Actual repayment (billion)  (Projected)
2003 455
2004 440
2005 520
2006 195 (after completion point)
2007     153
2008             156
2009             104
This shows that after reaching the HIPC Completion Point, we are paying less amounts of money. From annual repayments of over K440 billion, it is projected that Zambia will be paying about K100 billion per year in future. This means that most of the revenues collected by the Government will be used on local projects such as agriculture, education and health sectors. Already in 2005 and 2006, allocations to agriculture, education and health were significantly increased.

During the past three years over 15,000 teachers and 700 Agricultural Extension Officers have been recruited and the small-scale farmers have continued to receive subsidised fertiliser and seeds. Increased agricultural production of over 30 million bags of maize in 2006 has led to reduced price of mealie-meal. The allocation for road rehabilitation in 2006 was increased and many roads were worked on. More educational and health services and facilities will benefit the ordinary Zambian. The following table indicates the budget allocation during the past three years showing the significant increases:

Sector  Total Budget allocation (K billion)
  2004  2005  Increase  2006           Increase
Agriculture 168.3  340.75  (102%)   464.1   (36%)
Education 232.2  1016.1  (338%)   1280.1  (26%)
Health 133.8  445.3   (233%)   605.4   (36%)

Madam Speaker, the attainment of the HIPC Completion Point and the elimination of Zambia’s debt means that the country’s credit rating has improved. This will attract foreigners to invest in Zambia. Zambian business people can now also borrow easily from foreign banks, as they will have the trust in being paid back. All these investments by local and foreign business people will create employment and produce goods and services for the ordinary Zambians.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister alluded to the fact that the HIPC agreement was entered into in the year 2000 and was scheduled to be completed in 2003. In actual fact, it lasted another 2 years to be completed. Can he explain why the delay was there and he should not apologise for the late arrival of these benefits.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Speaker, the delay was due to slippages on the fifteen conditions which were put. Amongst those conditions were the issues of keeping personal emoluments to a level of not more than 8 per cent of gross domestic product. We are also supposed to reduce Government borrowing internally from the local banks to a very minimum level. As I reported before, in 2003 we had 5 per cent as domestic borrowing which was very high, and therefore, we are crowding out the private sector in industry. So, it was because of not meeting those fifteen conditions that the benefits were delayed.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I would like to believe that the hon. Minister would like to educate me on HIPC funds, meaning the money that has come from donors that have forgiven us debts. Is this money not targeted to specific developmental areas like agriculture, tourism and manufacturing, and that, in his Fifth National Development Plan and in his budget poverty reduction, in fact, is priority in these funds.

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, there no HIPC funds from the donors. We had a debt with them and they have cancelled that debt. So, there are no funds from the donors. What it means is that, where we were supposed to service a debt with the World Bank they have cancelled it. It will not be paid in the forty years that we were supposed to pay it. It simply means, in 2020 the instalment which will be due that time to the World Bank will not be paid to them. If at that time, the Zambian Government is able to raise revenue locally that revenue will go to local projects. It will not be paid outside to the World Bank. There are no HIPC funds from the donors. What we have said is, because some of the areas or sectors of the economy suffered out of fulfilling these conditions, and already in my statement read by the hon. Deputy Minister, we indicated that we were not recruiting civil servants. That is how there was this story about not recruiting teachers. It was to keep the personal emoluments for public servants to less than 8 per cent of gross domestic product. What we have done since reaching HIPC Completion Point, we are now recruiting these essential staff that we did not recruit at that time. So, that is a poverty reduction programme which we agreed on that once we reach HIPC Completion Point we will start recruiting the core staff in education, agriculture as a growth industry and health. That is what we are doing now.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Madam Speaker, arising from the last explanation given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning we recognise the fact that infrastructure development in the road sector had been negligent recognising it from what has been provided in this year’s budget. Can the hon. Minister explain as to why the road infrastructure development has been neglected when we have benefited from the HIPC Completion Point?

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Speaker, these savings is giving us fiscal space, is actually the savings which we drew from our revenues. From our revenues we have to look at all the competing needs and I think the hon. Member will appreciate that we cannot, from the limited revenues, finish all the projects at one goal. However, if we look at how much has been actually put to poor growth areas, you will appreciate that we are now spending more money in the budget than what we have actually looked at as growth poverty reduction areas. As revenue increases, most of these issues are going to be looked at and as we work as a nation together, I think it will be a thing of the past.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning explain the benefits accruing to the country from increasing domestic debt, and what measures he has put in place to make sure that it does not go out of control?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, as we explained in the Budget, out of about K7.1 trillion of domestic debt about K6 trillion of that is in Government Bonds and Treasury Bills. In our statement today, we indicated that during the period of implementing the HIPC Initiative, the Zambian Government had to be up to date on all foreign debt repayments. In order for the Government and Zambia to be up to date, the Government had to borrow from the local market to service the foreign debt. Because of that, we have been forgiven the six plus billion dollars.

Hon. Hachipuka wants to know what we are doing about the debt that we accumulated by borrowing from the local market. The Treasury Bills and Bonds are not a concern as such despite that we pay interest on them. The rest of the actual principle is rolled over on annual basis. What we are trying to do is to limit Government domestic borrowing so that we do not increase this local debt beyond the levels where it is at the moment.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, with the debt forgiveness from US$7.2 billion to about US$650 million as of now, would the hon. Minister accept that within several years, we will be back to square one if he keeps coming up with deficit budgets? For example, this year, there is a deficit of just under K4 trillion, which is about US$1 billion?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, indeed, we could be back there and in particular, if there is a misunderstanding that because we now have debt relief on the foreign debt, we can implement all the roads Hon. Imenda talked about. We should learn to understand that even after the debt relief, over K2 trillion of this year’s Budget is foreign money. Most of it is grant but we are also still getting some concessional loans. What we should do is live within our means. In that way, we will not be adding on to this debt.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, what guarantee is there that after having been forgiven the debt, we will not, after several years, get back to this situation? I am talking of a situation where the Government still continues to contract new debts by getting loans. This Parliament is on record as asking for this to be approved here, but the Government appears reluctant. What guarantee is there that without our knowledge, the hon. Minister will come back and we will have heavy debt again, and we will go back to being a heavily indebted poor country?

Mr Magande: Madam Speaker, I cannot give that guarantee. All I can request is that any debts that we contract from now should be used productively and add value to the economy. If we can grow this economy from K45 trillion now to K100 trillion, in five years, we will be able to service debt.

Madam, we should not give the impression that at country level, you can develop resources on your own. Not many countries are doing that in the world. What is required is judicious use of any money that comes to the Government. That is why this Government is on record for its’ financial discipline and fiscal management. We want to make sure that any money that comes our way is used for proper purposes. If we recruit teachers like we are doing, the children that should come out of these colleges must become productive citizens when they finish school. They must go and produce so that the Gross Domestic Product of the country increases. If they become street kids, roaming the streets, expecting somebody to give them a job, we are not going to get anywhere. Every Zambian must become productive.

I thank you, Madam.

ESTABLISHMENT OF A CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY

351. Mr Sejani asked the Vice-President when the Government would establish a constituent assembly to adopt the proposed Republican Constitution.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Speaker, I wish, from the onset to reaffirm Government’s firm commitment to the Constitution Review Process. Presently, the Government is earnestly undertaking necessary steps to drive this process forward contrary to some opinions that the Government is moving too slow over this matter.

According to the Government Road Map already released to the public, the constituent assembly should be established by the year 2009.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: This will be preceded by a census, referendum, enactment of a bill for the establishment of a constituent assembly and holding of elections for representatives of a constituent assembly.

The time frame will also depend on the availability of resources and the outcome of the referendum.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani: Madam Speaker, this nation is confused and is worried about the conflicting signals coming from the Government. Inspite of the pronouncements that are made on the Floor of this House, we continue to get conflicting signals on this very huge national question. May I solicit a definitive response from the Government that we mean what we are saying that there will be a constituent assembly…

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Ask your question!

Mr Sejani: Is the Government now telling us definitively that they will not issue conflicting statements on the question of the constituent assembly and that we shall have a constituent assembly as they have stated today?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, I want to state that the Government is irrevocably committed to the process of enacting a new constitution. There have been no contradictions. The Government is concerned and we are dead on track as far as this issue is concerned.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Madam Speaker, does His Honour the Vice-President know that it is the people’s right to ask for anything at the right time, like the constitution at hand and that whether it is wrong or right, they want a new constitution?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, in this year’s Budget, we have committed K202 billion for this process. That means we are a listening Government. We have listened to the demands of the people.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi East): Madam Speaker, if it is going to take up to 2009 to have a constituent assembly in place, may I know how long Zambians should wait and expect a new constitution to be in place if Government is taking its time just bringing up a constituent assembly.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the bottom line is that a constitution will be in place before 2010. Further, the Government will start this process as soon as we approve the estimates for the purpose of budget making.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, the President stated he would rather use the money for providing assistance to flood victims than on a piece of paper. How come the Vice-President is telling us today that there will be a constituent assembly when the President is not interested in a constitution?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the President was talking about priorities. The country has had serious floods and a lot of infrastructure has been destroyed. The President said that if he had an option, he would rather take this money to those immediate needy areas. He never back tracked on the constitution making process.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Madam Speaker, in the most recent past, the President was quoted saying that he was sad that he might not enact the constitution in the course of his tenure of office. Is the President still sad that he may not see the constitution at the end of his tenure of office?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the President’s position on this matter has not changed, but what we should bear in mind is that there is the question of resources being available at the right time and also results coming out of the referendum which would determine the next process.

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the navigation of the constitution making process has seen a number of road maps including the latest one that a constituent assembly will not be in place until 2009. Can I find out from the Acting Leader of the House what the K202 billion allocated in this year’s budget is going to be used for? Could he also kindly give us a road map which all of us can look at?

Madam Deputy Speaker: You may answer one of the questions, Acting Leader of Government Business.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, the K202 billion is meant to start constitutional making process.

I thank you.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Madam Speaker, is the constitution supposed to be enacted at the will of the people or the Government because the Zambian people have spoken? What are we still waiting for?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Madam Speaker, drawing a constitution is a constitutional matter.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah.

Mr Mpombo: Yes, there are steps to be followed. If you want, for instance, to have a constituent assembly, how do you have it? You have to change certain provisions of the Constitution and, therefore, the Government has clearly set itself steps to follow in ensuring that there is a smooth and orderly process. We are not taking away anything from the people. We have said that we will go by the will of the people, but we will take the whole hog in terms of the Constitution.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

__________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

(Debate resumed)

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K305, 911, 217, 977.00).

VOTE 15 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – K140, 634, 746, 311.00).

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Madam Speaker, it gives me great pleasure and honour to be privileged to present a policy statement for the Ministry of Home Affairs in respect of supply on the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure or indeed the 2007 Budget.

Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Home Affairs plays a pivotal role in the provision and maintenance of internal security, which is a critical element in the sustenance of socio-economic development. In this regard, the ministry provides an enabling environment where peace, stability and justice prevail in order to promote sustainable development in the country.

Mr Chairman, the ministry’s responsibilities, therefore, encompasses a wide range of activities in relation to the maintenance of law and order. In order to carry out this task effectively, the ministry operates under the following portfolio functions as contained in the Government Gazette Notice No. 46 of 24th January, 1992. The ministry is involved in arms and ammunition control, Zambian citizenship, deportation, drug enforcement, extradition of fugitive offenders, forensic medical services, immigration, passports, national registration, law and order, missing persons, national archives protected places and areas, refugees, registration of births, marriages and deaths, road traffic (enforcement of law relating to road traffic), Zambia Police, preservation of public security, civil defence, registration of societies, suicide and prisons.

Mr Chairman, to effectively perform these functions, the ministry developed a five-year strategic plan for the period 1995 to 2000 and reviewed it in 2001 and 2002 for another five years i.e. 2003 to 2007. Next year, the strategic plan will be reviewed again for the subsequent five years.

Mr Chairman, these strategic plans are designed to provide direction in the maintenance of internal security, peace and stability in the country. They define the ministry’s missions, goals, objectives and other associated strategies. The objective of reviewing the strategic plan is to transform the Ministry of Home Affairs into a more efficient, cost effective and responsible institution and direct its decisions, programmes and activities towards improving the quality of service delivery to the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the operations of the strategic plan are carried out by specialised agencies that form the Ministry of Home Affairs namely: -

The Zambia Police Force, the Drug Enforcement Commission, the Zambia Prison Service, the Department of Immigration, the Department of National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, the National Archives of Zambia, the Office of the Commissioner for Refugees, the Office of the Registrar of Societies, the Police Public Complaints Authority and the Home Affairs Research Planning and Information Department.

Mr Chairman, the ministry’s vision is “A safer and more secure Zambia by the year 2030” in line with the national vision 2030. The guiding mission statement for the ministry and its specialised agencies is to effectively and efficiently provide and maintain an accountable and transparent internal security system in order to create an environment which peace, stability and justice prevail for sustainable social and economic development for the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairman, the situation analysis on individual specialised agencies is as follows:

(i) Zambia Police

The Zambia Police Force is mandated by the Zambian Constitution to maintain law and order, to prevent crime, protect life and property, detect crime and prosecute offenders. It is also the responsibility of the Zambia Police Force to manage traffic in order to reduce road carnage and promote safety.

The police are expected to provide quality service according to its mission statement. However, this mandate is not fully realised due to logistical and human resource constraints, for instance the total manpower in the Zambia Police Force now stands at 18,000. This number is expected to police a population of about 11 million people. The ministry has estimated that to effectively police a population of 11 million people, the police needs a total of 27,000 police officers. A recruitment drive is well under way to achieve its figure by 2015. The accepted international minimum ratio for policing is one policeman to 25 persons. There is a general lack of infrastructure also, specialised training and basic logistics such as modern high-tech equipment for crime prevention and investigations. This scenario makes pro-active policing difficult. However, most of these concerns have been addressed in the Fifth National Development Plan through the nine ministry police objectives listed in the ministry’s police document.

Mr Chairman, notwithstanding these constraints, the Zambia Police Force has managed to reduce crime levels through initiatives within the framework of police reform programmes. These include the Victim Support Unit, Neighbourhood Watch Associations Anti- Copper Thefts Unit, Community Policing and Construction of Juvenile Cells in some police stations. The aspects of Human Rights and good governance have also been integrated in the police training curriculum.

(ii) Zambia Prisons Service (ZPS)

The Zambia Prisons Service is mandated by the Zambian Constitution to provide humane custody, correctional and reintegration of discharged prison inmates into society as law-abiding citizens. The service is established and governed by CAP 97 of the Laws of Zambia.

Today’s prison population is 14,500 and indeed, is occupying infrastructures originally intended to only be used for 4000 prisoners. This has resulted in serious overcrowding taking into account that the initial prison infrastructure has not been expanded and rehabilitated for a long time. Some buildings are dilapidated and collapsing making them unsuitable and inadequate for the ever-increasing population. The current establishment for prison staff is 1,856 giving a ratio of one officer to eight prisoners contrary to the law that provide ratio of one officer to four inmates.

Furthermore, due to inadequate infrastructures, the classification of prisoners has become very difficult in that juveniles and other remandees are mixed without distinction.

Mr Chairman, notwithstanding, this, the above constraints, the Prison Service has endeavoured to provide quality correction and reintegration service aimed at resettling discharged inmates into productive and law-abiding citizens. Officers are being trained in clinical psychology, social work, human rights and good governance issues.

In an effort to increase capacity, the Government together with co-operating partners has constructed juvenile facilities in Kabwe and Katombola. In addition, the Government is also in the process of completing the construction of the Mwembeshi Maximum Prison and rehabilitation of some prison dormitories at Kamfinsa Prison. This development will create room for over 1,000.

(iii) Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC)

Mr Chairman, let me now turn my attention to the DEC. The commission’s mandate is covered under the provision of CAP 96 of the Laws of Zambia whose core functions are to control and prevent the illegal production, trafficking and abuse of narcotics and psychotropic substances and provide rehabilitation services to drug addicts in order to contribute to social economic development and maintenance of internal security.

Mr Chairman, the Government observed that proceeds arising from drug enforcement and other vices were destroying the country’s economy. In light of this, Act No. 14 of 2001 to monitor and prevent money laundering, established the Anti-Money Laundering Investigations Unit.

Mr Chairman, ever since the creation of the DEC, there has been an increase in seizures of illicit drugs and prosecutions of culprits in drug related and money laundering cases. However, the absence of infrastructures coupled with low staffing levels, which at present stands at 465 personnel covering the whole country, has meant that a number of culprits have escaped the dragnet.

Mr Chairman, in order to effectively and efficiently fight the vices, there is need to increase staffing levels to 1,500 by the year 2010, procure appropriate transport, erect appropriate infrastructures and acquire equipment such as drug detectors amongst other things.{mospagebreak}

(iv) Immigration Department

Mr Chairman, the Immigration Department derives its mandate from the Immigration and Deportation Act (CAP 123) of the Laws of Zambia. Its core functions are to regulate the entry into and exit from Zambia, the removal of illegal immigrants and deportation of persons inimical to the security of a country as well as to control and monitor the stay of visitors and immigrants in the country.

Mr Chairman, the positive economic outlook and peace prevailing in the country has resulted in an increase in the number of tourists, visitors, investors, and of course, illegal immigrants. However, there has not been a corresponding increase in staffing levels, equipment and training programs and infrastructure development. Consequently, the department is not fully realising its objectives due to logistic and human resource inadequacies, but include manual systems of managing information and border controls, low staffing levels and lack of land and water transport at various borders and indeed internal controls. Besides, lack of adequate office infrastructure and staff houses has impacted negatively on the department’s performance.

(v) National Registration, Passport and Citizenship Department

Mr Chairperson, this department undertakes a multifaceted mandate of issuing both national identity and travel documents. It also registers its citizens and bonafide foreigners in accordance with the provision of the National Registration Act (Cap 126), Birth and Death Certificates, under the Birth and Death Registration Act (Cap 51), Adoption Act (Cap 54), Marriage Act (Cap 50), Citizenship Act (Cap 124) and Passport Act No. 22 of 2003 and the United Nations Travel Documents.

The Department has endeavoured to provide quality services in order to satisfy the demand. However, like in many other departments, this Department faces logistical problems and low staffing levels. Currently, the capturing and processing of information and documents is done manually hence affecting the operational efficiency of the Department. Meanwhile, the exercise of computerising operations in the Department is well underway.

(vi)  National Archives of Zambia

Mr Chairperson, the National Archives of Zambia derives its mandate from both the National Archives Act (Cap 175) and the Printed Publications Act (Cap 161). Its core mandate is to collect, manage and preserve all public records, archives, printed and non-printed publications for posterity.

The Department has no adequate and suitable storage facilities for safe custody of documents due to the non-completion of the archival building that is going on. In addition, the department lacks adequate qualified personnel to carryout restorative and records management tasks.

Mr Chairperson, despite these constraints, I must admit that the department has managed to establish a Non-Government Archives Unit and consequently complied the first guide to the Non-Governmental archives in Zambia. The Department is also digitising most of the historical documents and computerising the information storage and retrieval process in order to increase access and enhance information retrieval. Additionally, it has also collected 40 per cent of all printed publications within Zambia.

(vii) Commission for Refugees

Zambia has for a long time played host to many refugees fleeing from their countries as a result of civil strife and other conflicts. The first undocumented caseload was in 1945 during the Second World War.

The mandate of the commission is ensued from the Refugee Control Act of 1970 (Cap 120). Its core function is to ensure effective management and protection of refugees in the country.

There have been some challenges associated with refugee hosting, but I need to mention in this august House that the resources have dwindled from the cooperating partners to support refugee programmes. There has been competition for the same natural resources between the refugees and the hosting communities, as refugees seem to be better off materially than the hosting communities due to the support they receive from the international community.

In addressing the above challenges, the Zambia Initiative Programme (ZIP) was introduced as a pilot project to take developmental programmes to refugee hosting communities in order to mitigate the negative impact of hosting refugees. Currently, the programme is running in Western and North-Western provinces. It is the first of its kind in Africa.

(viii) Office of The Registrar of Societies

The Office of the Registrar of Societies operates under the provision of the Societies Act of 1995 (Cap 119) whose core functions are to register, regulate and monitor activities of societies in order to promote freedom of association and enhance good governance.

Inadequate funding, low staffing, weak monitoring and evaluation mechanisms have negatively affected the smooth-running of the department coupled with the department’s lack of office accommodation.

Sir, notwithstanding the above constraints, the department has been able to execute its mandate relatively well. There has been free flow of information about societies to members of the public, Government Departments and stakeholders.

(ix)  The Police Public Complaints Authority (PPCA)

This department was established pursuant to the Zambia Police Amendment Act No. 14 of 1999, under Section 57A – 59B. Its core function is to receive complaints against police human rights abuses; investigating abuses, making directives and recommendations to relevant institutions.

The Authority started operations in January 2003. I must admit that many cases have been dealt with by this organisation.

(x)  Research and Information Department (HARID)

HARID was established by the Government in 1995 to coordinate planning, develop and manage effective security information management systems and conduct research in order to provide information for informed decision-making and improved service delivery.

Currently, the department is in the process of replacing the obsolete computer equipment with more modern ones. The department is not operating effectively as required due to the old equipment arising from inadequate financial resources, trained human resource and, indeed, understaffing.

However, despite the difficulties, the department has undertaken some research in security matters and has developed national data bases for the following departments: National Registration, Passport and Citizenship, Immigration, Police and Road Traffic Commission (RTC).

Mr Chairperson, last but not the least, HIV and AIDS is a crosscutting issue. The HIV and AIDS pandemic pose a serious threat to the Ministry of Home Affairs ability to successfully provide quality service of combating crime due to increase in morbidity and attrition. Statistics available indicated that the ministry has lost and will continue losing a lot of man hours through illness. This results in unplanned separation packages and other benefits including extra recruitment to fill in the void.

Mr Chairperson, another vulnerable group in this ministry is prison inmates who require improved care and more coordinated interventions. Sir, the ministry has put in place an HIV and AIDS Policy at the work place to facilitate interventions such as awareness, prevention, treatment and core-services for its workers and the immediate family members.

Mr Chairperson, in a nutshell, I have given out a policy related to my ministry, the ministry of Home Affairs and its departments.

I beg to move that the budget for this ministry be allowed to pass.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): I am grateful to you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to begin by complementing the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for having provided a very able context in which the Ministry of Home Affairs has to be understood by all of us.

Sir, the Ministry of Home Affairs as the hon. Minister has ably put it, was created specifically to maintain law and order in our country. Accordingly, all the departments within the same ministry must be seen through the same spectacles.

It is, therefore, important for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to ensure that he allocates sufficient funds to the Ministry of Home Affairs in order to enable the departments which fall under the ministry to function properly.

Sir, any departure from that arrangement would mean that even the resources that would be allocated to other ministries for the purposes of developing this country would be wasted. At some point, we will assume that this legislation is failing to maintain law and order. It could be better if any ministry in our country, for example, the Ministry of Works and Supply could put emphasis on developing our nation. If the infrastructure that you are going to put up will not be protected by our security officers, I am afraid, even the concept of developing our country may be delayed and will not even be realised.

Sir, I have in mind a number of departments within the ministry, which have been under funded or under played. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to raise the profile of these departments so that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning may be able to see the activities of this department. May be they have always been under funded because the person who is responsible for apportioning the cake to various ministries has not taken the trouble of visiting some of these departments for him to know what goes on there.

Sir, for example, I have in mind the department under the Ministry of Home Affairs, which is responsible for the registration of political parties, registration of a number of organisations and societies, which is the registrar of societies. Every year when you look at the cake that is apportioned to this department, one wonders whether you have recognised the importance of the department. All of us are products of different political parties except for those who have come as independent like what happened to me five years ago, but I am now speaking as an hon. Member of Parliament under the Patriotic Front.

Sir, even the Government of the day has registered their political party using the department. If you can under play the importance of that organisation, I am afraid we would not have been here. I am saying so because it is a requirement. If you want to stand for elections, you should indicate the political party that is going to sponsor you. That is why you are there as hon. Ministers and hon. Deputy Ministers. That is why we are also here as hon. Members of the opposition drawn from various political parties. If we had not registered our political parties, I am afraid you would not even have formed the Government. Therefore, that institution must be respected.

Sir, apart from that, the registrar of societies must be able to go out in the field to determine the number of churches that are active, those that are not active and some associations which are active and not active. If you cannot give a lot of money to that department, it will mean that the information that they will be collecting, in terms of how many churches and associations are in our country will be second hand information. We need to fund these institutions sufficiently in order to enable the officers to be on the ground all the time.

Sir, secondly, I think all of us have appreciated the importance of history. History is important because you make reference to what used to happen in the past to determine the future. This is the importance of a national archive. The national archive is there to preserve our records. It could be the Ministry of Home Affairs, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and other various ministries that are supposed to put their records in that department. For example, the buildings whose construction commenced fourteen years ago have not been completed up to now. This is because of the funding levels which are not attractive.

Sir, I have noted in the Yellow Book that in fact, you have even reduced the amount of money from K2 billion to K1.7 billion and when time comes for you to release that money, you do not do so. In other words, the records that are supposed to be deposited into that department will remain in various ministries. If you want to use that information to make a decision in one way or another, you have to go back to the department responsible for keeping the records. If this is not done, that information cannot be traced. It means that you will not remain current in your decision making process. Therefore, that department is cardinal. I would like to state that I am not so conversant with construction work, but a critical analysis of the buildings, which have remained uncompleted for so long may indicate to you that the Government and the ministry may require not less than K24 billion to complete that building. As of now, all the records are scattered at the ministry.

Sir, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to take time to visit that department. You should look at the buildings which have remained uncompleted.  You will be surprised to learn that a building which is supposed to be attractive still looks ugly. You should find money to ensure that these buildings are completed.

Mr Chairperson, I now come to the issue of refugees. I am aware that as Zambians, we have always stated that these refugees must be sent back to their respective countries. I agree that such opinions can be entertained in one way or another. The reality is that all of us can be refugees at one point or another. The fact that some countries are at war and that we have been able to accommodate these refugees does not imply that the peace that we have been enjoying in our country is permanent. One day, we might find that there is chaos in our own country. I am not advocating for the same, but this is reality and it may happen. You will never know what comes tomorrow.

Sir, what I am pleading for is that the action that has already been taken by the Ministry of Home Affairs must be consolidated. It is a question of having discussions with the affected countries where these refugees come from so that arrangements can be made to take these refugees back to their respective countries without using force.  I am not going to be part of that kind of arrangement because you will never know what comes tomorrow. You may find that tomorrow you have become a refugee as well. The countries that may know that Zambia has been hostile to us may not be able to accommodate us.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that it is the onus of the Ministry of Home Affairs to discriminate against those refugees who are here to plunder our resources. For example, if you happen to go to Mayukwayukwa, you may find that there are about five Kenyans. Who knows whether Kenya is at war or not? I am aware that some refugees are here simply to plunder our wealth. Those refugees can be isolated and be taken back to their respective countries. I am aware that the ministry has been doing that expect that sometimes when they want to take action, the same refugees who may find themselves here illegally, there comes the question of funding because they have to look for money to buy tickets. I want to emphasise that we should not be relaxed on that issue. 

Sir, the Prisons Department is yet another important department. I have always said that prisoners should be able to feed themselves. There is no way prisoners can be spoon-fed. They have the energy to till the land. After all, the idea is to establish the open air prisons so that after a prisoner has served for three or four years, he or she may have acquired a lot of skills which may enable him or her to be integrated into society. In other words, prisoners have a lot of energy. In fact, if you look at the prisoners in open-air prisons and compare them with those in confinement, you will discover that those who in open-air prisons are in good shape. The best we can do is to offload a number of prisoners, especially those who have not committed serious crimes so that they contribute to the economic growth of the country.

There is no need to feed prisoners unless there is a crisis in the country. Granted that the situation is okay, my recommendation is that prisoners must feed themselves.

Mr Chairperson, I am surprised that the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has retained the same allocation of K1.2 billion for buying inputs and equipment for the past five years. I think it is better for the ministry to look at that figure so that the department may be given something like K5 billion for them to buy sufficient inputs and allow prisoners to grow sufficient crops to feed themselves and sell the surplus.

Mr Chairperson, the Immigration Department is one area where we need to assist the Ministry of Home Affairs. You have complained about people entering our country illegally. Measures have been put in place by the ministry to ensure that unwanted foreigners are deported back to their respective countries. This means that the Immigration Department has to look for money to buy vehicles and other things. If you cannot fund them sufficiently we will continue harbouring illegal foreigners. Please address that problem sufficiently to ensure that this department is given a lot of money in order to enable them buy vehicles.

Mr Chairperson, some of the people they are dealing with are notorious and anything can happening. Maybe, in the course of performing their functions at night, they maybe attacked by these people who are in the country illegally. They may also face these criminals who may open fire at them. The best arrangement would be that while they are looking or searching for illegal immigrants, buy them vehicles so that immediately these criminals are apprehended, they are put in the vehicles and transported to Police Headquarters. Without that, I can assure you that we will be talking about illegal immigrants for years and years. The best way of containing that situation is to ensure that we fund the department sufficiently and buy vehicles throughout the country. Then, you will see the wonders that they will perform.

Mr Chairperson, I am sure that we are all aware that the Police Force has credible officers operating under difficult circumstances. We should improve their conditions of service. It does not make sense to send a person 200 kilometers away from his family and not look after him properly. In my view, that is a contradiction. If you have accepted the fact that the police are there to maintain law and order, the funding level and their conditions of service must improve.

Sir, so many allegations have been made and some facts have been produced about some of our police officers who have been found wanting.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity and I will make use of my fifteen (15) minutes very effectively.

First and foremost, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for giving us the activities of his ministry and the inability of this Government to fund them. Obviously, we need funding for any department to work effectively. In general, I share your view.

Mr Chairperson, secondly, resources are being misapplied. That is a fact and I will be demonstrating in a short while why there could be sufficient money to run some of the needy departments in that ministry.

Firstly, I do not see why good governance or any Government cannot apply to the independence of ministries for as long the top civil servants have a tenure of office that is guaranteed. If you are on three-year contracts, you know what happens.

Secondly, I would like to tell the hon. Minister to join those who believe that the twenty-one ministries could be made into entities with national corporate image running their own affairs with proper promotion ladders for public servants and of course for politicians as and when it comes. 

Sir, having stated that, I do not see the reason for you hon. Minister, to continue complaining about lack of resources when in fact, you can do away with the Police Service Commission and empower the Inspector-General of Police and the people in-charge of prisons and thereafter, make savings to improve the services of those two departments. In any case, we have so many other departments under you, immigration included that do not have the Public Service Commission, but they seem to be doing a good job. Therefore, let us introduce good governance ministry by ministry. You should trust the people that are there and give them proper tenure of office and longevity of service for politicians for as long as they can do their work properly so that they direct the action to your commitment.

Sir, every one of these ministries budgeted as they liked. They provided as they liked to the wishes of any rationalised way of budgeting for a proper reason. Out of twenty-one ministries, only a third or a quarter of those ministries disclosed the cost of running the office of the minister and two offices of the deputy ministers and the permanent secretary. I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Home Affairs because he is in the category of the few that put costs in the budget.

It is a difference matter whether the value you have put to you and your ministers and permanent secretary is cost effective, but nonetheless, you have put it there. Therefore, we know what it costs us to run your top hierarchy in the ministry. That goes to the Local Government and a few others. May I ask hon. Magande to please make it easy for us in the future to cost benefit the performance of the top hierarchies in ministries to ensure that hon.  Ministers’ costs in the budget and those of senior civil servants are articulated.

I am aware that in one ministry, you have put all your costs in one permanent secretary. Are you not lucky? You have more than two permanent secretaries. What we are saying is that it would be easier for the costs of ministries at that level to be clear then because then you will not be accused of misusing any money whatsoever. Therefore, when we are asked to reduce, some hon. Minister may offer to cut off some of their expenses particularly travels, telephones, vehicles and the rest of it. So, the focus of this budget must be standardised at the ministry level as rule number one.

Secondly, I wish that the poverty reduction programmes could be defined. If you go through this Yellow Book, you find that telephone bills of three years ago have not been paid, and yet at the time, some of you were not even ministers. The Ministry of Education is one good example. These are shown in this Yellow Book and provided for under poverty reduction. What has poverty reduction got to do with not paying your bills? That is the case for every ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I have taken advantage of the fact that this is the first ministry we are debating and therefore, a certain level of standard must be brought up. We want to know how much these sixty ministers cost us. Are they paid according to their performance? Is it true that this is how we are spending this money? I believe that this money could be diverted to other activities. That is the point I am making. I have seen that vehicles, incinerators for burning papers, floor building, etc, are included in here which could be redefined and reworked out, if Hon. Magande and his staff were allowed to budget on a standard basis. That is my advice for the future.

Mr Chairperson, we have sufficiently congratulated ourselves, the Minister of Finance and National Planning and the President, but unless we are sure of what we want to achieve we may be making a very serious mistake. No doubt.

Macro-economic stability started a long time ago, but the man on the scene is Peter Magande. He may not be the best of ministers, but he has stabilised the economy and so, we compliment you. However, I hope that you will agree with me …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … that we should cut some of the figures in this budget as dictated by this House. Hon. Minister, there are some bizarre expenses in this budget and I will give a typical example of the Ministry of Home Affairs which I earlier on complimented.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just by way of guidance, can you address the Chair?

Mr Matongo: I think the Chairperson does not want me to debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue I was saying address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: Alright, I thought you did not want me to debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: No.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, the police and teachers are the most wretched employees of the earth in terms of poverty and salaries.

Under police, the Poverty Reduction Programme has been allocated K182 billion for the rehabilitation of water and sewer systems and K30 billion has been allocated for the construction of new houses. We have heard that before and it has never happened. However, the Inspector-General of Police does not question this since it was budgeted for last year in smaller amounts, but now we have increased the amounts and he has nothing to say. Hon. Minister, perhaps you could look at that.

The Hon. Minister whom I have already complimented has allocated himself at headquarters K1.8 billion together with his ministers and permanent secretaries. However, look at what he provided for last year for new passports, K4.3 billion. I wonder whether it was used. If you look at his allocation for travels, it is another huge sum of money for the ministry. Meanwhile, policemen keep on asking for cigarettes even from the Minister of Finance and National Planning who does not smoke when he drives around the roads and they do not recognise him as the Minister of Finance. Surely, can we not remove this Poverty Reduction Programme allocation to support police officers on the ground rather than concentrate it on ministers to use on travels all over the shore including going to see the Victoria Falls on the pretext that the commander in Southern Province has a pass out parade?

Laughter

Mr Matongo: That is for the Deputy Minister for Southern Province to do. This scenario in the Ministry of Home Affairs is also found in every ministry. Undefined roles and duties of people who are supposed to do the job in the districts and provinces is overshadowed by bills coming from all over the place.

For this reason, I urge the Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to persuade his colleagues to price their offices. There are only seven or eight that have done so. We want to know the cost analysis benefit. I want to know what the Ministry of Defence will cost me against the value of providing security to me. The same goes to every one of you.

 I will move amendments as we progress, to reallocate some of these moneys to needy areas such as police, immigration and all those that need money for our protection.
 
To the citizenry I will advise that any person who runs away after seeing a policeman must have a problem. A policeman protects. However, I am not very sure about the military personnel since when I was born the first person I saw in uniform in Pemba was a policeman. He was a white man. And we used to follow him as he walked from up town Pemba to down town Pemba where his office was. However, the ones we have now cannot even walk properly because of their shoes and their bad uniforms. They are ashamed to walk in public because we are using money for other purposes instead of looking after them. It is not yet time for us to be proud as a country unless we reduce our own expenditure and transmit it to the lower levels our people.

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: There is $3,000.

Mr Matongo: I am not going to answer back because you might not like what I say.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: The point I am trying to make is that, we want to cut expenditure downwards so that the Hon. Magande’s HIPC effort is not translated into telephone bills, minister’s flying to London to buy new suits, but to buy uniforms for policemen and have their compounds renovated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: That is what poverty reduction is all about. I appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament to reject approving this poverty reduction which is found in every ministry, so that the money can go to deserving people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Even salaries!

Mr Matongo: I have no problem with it, but all I am saying is that the budgeted figures in the Ministry of Home Affairs replicated to all ministries under the guise and bizarre expenditures of poverty reduction, and yet they mean, high consumption for higher offices. We also want our policemen to get fat and be able to run around. Therefore, I ask the Minister to cut his own expenses.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Bonshe (Mufumbwe): Mr Chairperson, thank you for affording me this chance to add my voice in support of the Ministry of Home Affairs.

As you are all aware, the ministry is responsible for maintenance of law and order. If there is no law and order in the country then there would be chaos. We are able to transact our businesses because our women and men in uniform are trying to protect our businesses.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Therefore, we have to ensure that this ministry is supported, but unfortunately this is a ministry that has been neglected. When you compare with other security divisions, the Zambia Police in the Ministry of Home Affairs is the least, notwithstanding that it is the mother of all the security wings in this country. The Office of the President Security Division - intelligence was a branch in the Zambia Police Force and was known as Special Branch and was separated around 1966 and 1967.

Mr Chairman, this time when you see the grading of an intelligence officer in the Office of the President compared to a police inspector, the difference is wide. An ordinary intelligence officer in the Office of the President is graded equivalent to an Assistant Superintended in the Zambia Police. The difference is very wide. Even the Anti Corruption Commission only formed in 1980 is graded higher than the Zambia Police Service. That is very unfortunate because even in terms of remuneration, the salary of the Director General in the Office of the President is not equated to the salary of the Inspector General of Police.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: That is a fact because those figures were brought here in Parliament and the margin was too wide. We want that margin to be bridged …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: … so that the salary of the Inspector General is equated or it should even be higher than that of the Director General of Intelligence because the Zambia Intelligence Service is the baby of the Inspector General.

A police inspector is equated to a Zambia enrolled nurse in terms of salary and yet he is an officer. Does that befit the title of officer when that person is not well treated? The last time police houses were constructed was when Aaron Milner was Minister of Home Affairs in 1976. He built a number of flats and police houses. Sir, 1975 and 1976 is the time we saw police camps coming up. Since that time, there has been nothing and police officers are reduced to sleeping in ramshackle structures.

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: Mr Chairman, I will give an example of my constituency at Mufumbwe Police Station. Sir, this station was opened in 1973 and up to date there is no single building there.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer!

Mr Bonshe: The officers at this police station are sleeping in hats made of iron sheets from the bottom up to the roof.

Hon. PF Members: Hammer, Hammer!

Mr Bonshe: With no cement on the floor and it is a one roomed thing.

Hon. PF Members: Yaa!

Mr Bonshe: And the person who sleeps there is called an officer.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We do not debate like that in this august House. This is an honourable House and there are rules and if you want to agree with what he is saying, the acceptable expression is ‘hear, hear’. You are making the Chamber look like something else. Hon. Member, continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: We are talking to a listening Government and if we do not tell them, they will not know and since they are a listening Government they should do something.

Mr Chairman, about eleven years ago the then Minister of Home Affairs, I think it was Dr Machungwa who went to Mufumbwe Police Station and laid a foundation for the construction of a police station.

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: This has ended at slab level because up to now there is nothing and that piece of land has been repossessed.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: All we are saying is that we have agreed in this House that the Zambia Police Force needs to be supported and we need a huge amount to be allocated to them so that they can do the work because when we are comfortably sleeping, they are on duty patrolling, protecting our lives and property. They are dying in the process of protecting our property and not their property and so we should ensure that these people are properly remunerated. If there is money which is not going to be properly applied in any Ministry, please let us move it to the Ministry of Home Affairs where it is needed most.

Mr Chairman, the Immigration Department also needs to be assisted because we have areas at the borders where for example, some Lunda people from North Western Province look like those from the Congo DR and Angola. You cannot differentiate them.

Laughter

Mr Bonshe: So, we need to put more security measures to ensure that people do not come in with on the pretext of being Lunda when they are Congolese.

Laughter

Mr Bonshe: We have to ensure that we improve our immigration system at the borders to control the influx of people who are attracted to the good governance of this Government. I believe that our listening Government is doing something and I know that the police station at Mufumbwe will be attended to and also the salary of the Inspector General and his conditions of service will be looked at to equate them to other security services.

I thank you.

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Chairman, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

Mr Chairman, I feel saddened to see the reduction in the allocation to the Ministry of Home Affairs, particularly the police, especially when we are looking at reducing crime such as corruption in the police service. I feel sorry for the hon. Minister in charge of the police when he is explaining to this House all the time and describing the bribery which is taking place in his ministry. He seems to have no words to describe it but simply says, ‘it is self defence’.

Mr Chairman, more money should be allocated to this Ministry so that the police officers can have their lives improved. In Munali we have police officers who live in houses which are like chicken runs. We, in this House, cannot live in those conditions, but we expect those police officers to protect our lives. Those police officers who live in such houses are the ones we parade along the roads to the airport early in the morning. At least we can give them decent accommodation.

Mr Chairman, I feel bad to have to talk about police all the time. Just the day before yesterday, we read an article in the daily papers about a police officer who picked up a five year old child and shot it point blank. That makes me wonder if our police officers are in their right state of mind. I think it is because of the conditions that they are living in. Why do we not improve their livelihood?

Mr Chairman, when you look at the money allocated to Gender, it is K5 million for the whole country and this is at the time we are looking at the improvement of gender.

We have seen how police women dress. Now, it even makes me think that they wear those short dresses which I have talked about in this House because the material bought for them is not enough to make a decent skirt. We need decency and respect in our women so that even when men look at us they should respect us instead of buying small uniforms.

Hon. Members: Go ahead.

Ms Mumbi: Mr Chairman, it is sad to see some hon. Members who proudly shout in support of the K78, 576, 000 allocated to State House for…

Hon. Opposition Members: Animals.

Ms Mumbi: …animals. We are talking about human beings who need decency. We are talking about repairing G3 for police officers some of which were made before I was even born. Why can we not buy new guns for them because criminals are now using sophisticated weapons? We should be mindful of some things we say because considering that our people listen to these debates. Even when we insult other hon. Members, people get to know because the media reports whatever is said here. It is sad that our people see us shouting as if we are alangizi because only alangizi insult when while teaching young men and women and it is their professional …

Interruptions

Ms Mumbi: …no I am talking to those of you who like insulting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi: They will be wondering whether you are hon. Members or alangizi.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Shakafuswa.{mospagebreak}

Ms Mumbi: Mr Chairman, we were long talking about accommodation because it is in my constituency. These police officers are working so hard. Come to my constituency, I can proudly say the police officers are working because you will never find bars open at 1000 hours. These police officers walk and when you look at their boots they wear you would think they have come from Iraqi where there is war.

Laughter

Ms Mumbi: Their uniforms are in taters. That is true whether you like it or not and you will see them. We were told in this House that 5,000 police officers have no accommodation. As I said, go to Chelstone Police Camp and see how our police officers are living. Then, you find there is a reduction in the money allocated to them which is K30 billion to be shared among the three institutions, the police, prison service and immigration. That is a joke. When we have seen K1 billion allocated to one person’s house. Let us give decency to our people.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Thank you, Mr Chairman. I stand to support the budget on Home Affairs. Though, I stand to support I have few reservations.

Mr Chairman, when we are talking about police, I think it is true that policemen are living in misery. Transport is something that you cannot even dream about. I am on record in this House talking about why it is so difficult for the members of the public to be assisted when they call the police at night. My investigations reviewed that most of the transport that was allocated to police, actually, are personal to holder. When a person calls for help at night, the car is under key and lock. Now, how do you expect a person to be assisted at night? Police officers should be helped in terms of transport.

Mr Chairman, intelligence gathering is another problem. We have seen the Government paying a lot of money because police officers sometimes have arrest people on half baked information. So, there is need that our police officers are well trained.

Mr Chairman, in this country we have a lot of syndicates. Even now the Government has found it difficult to arrest some people because of the high level of theft that we have in this country. There is need for our police officers to be trained and…

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairman, I was simply saying that the money allocated to intelligence gathering should be increased looking at the sophisticated criminals we have in this country. We need our police officers to be equipped with the modern way of handling these issues because the Government is losing a lot of money through compensation.

Mr Chairman, I also observed that there is no allocation on the procurement of Anti-Ritroviral (ARVs) in the police. I do not know whether this Government has gone the Sondashi way…

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: …and stopped allocating money to police officers. They cannot tell me that we do not have officers who are affected with HIV/AIDS for them to remove budget allocation on ARVs.

Mr Chairman, police uniforms is also something that we cannot talk about. It is true that most of our officers cannot go patrolling because of their attire. I can tell you what happened to me one time. A police officer asked about my finished tyres. I just told him to look at his boots.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: .Then, he said bamudala kabiyeni namulanda sana.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: So, we want our police officers to be well looked after. Even when the senior officers ask for money for cigarette and other things they should not fail to pay.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairman, I now come to immigration. I am very disheartened with what is happening in this department. The procurement of uniforms is vital in this department. These ministers cannot tell me that they have never flown out of the country or crossed borders. I think the issue of uniforms should be looked into because most of our officers do not have uniforms. I heard the hon. Minister talking about increasing operations. Now, as a security department, officers need combat uniforms, they need suits and they need working uniforms. However, this is a department that has never been issued with combats. Then, how do you want these officers to go for operations? How do you want these officers to go bring out the desired achievements when you do not give them basic needs that they are supposed to use? We have 475 officers without combats. We must be more serious in what we are doing. I think we must stop joking when we look at the affairs of this nation. We have Members of Parliament who have complained in this House about the issues of casual workers. It does not take a minister to know who a casual worker is.

You just need to give a combat to an immigration assistant and he is going to flash out all the casual workers in this nation. In this way, we will create jobs for our youths. Most of our officers have no uniforms. The little uniforms that you see around are improvised. They have to buy for themselves. Is this the way we want to treat these officers? When are we going to appreciate their services?

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Singombe: Mr Chairperson, the K497 million is nothing compared to the work, which goes on in the department. Although this is a security department, it also collects a lot of revenue, but this Government has neglected it. Why?

Mr Nkhata interrupted

Mr Singombe: You do not know what an immigration officer is, Mr Minister. Let me teach you one or two things.

Laughter

Mr Singombe: This department has been given a target of K41 billion this year. I am sure and I have no doubt that this money will be released. Why do you neglect this department? Each time you given them a target they always go beyond the required target.

With regard to operations, the K120 million will not achieve any desired goals. Who will remove the 35,000 refugees scattered in this country? How do you want to affect these removals with only K120 million? Who is going to pay their allowances? Which transport are they going to use to remove all the 35,000 refugees inclusive of those who are still coming to this country? Can someone tell me the mathematics this Government is using to allocate this department with only K120 million?

You have commanded this department to go out and on clean up operations, but where is the money? The current K180 million for conducting operations is too little. If we want to create employment for our youths in this country, we need more money for this department. This is the only department which is going to deter the would-be foreigners. This is the only department which is going to make sure that chase ups are done in all the companies. However, if we do not empower this department, it means you are shooting yourselves in the foot.

Mr Chairperson, as regards transport, His Excellency the President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, is on record telling this nation when he came back from India that he was given a fleet of vehicles. In his speech, he reminded us that transport would be distributed to the Ministry of Defence, Zambia National Service, Police and Immigration. May I know how many vehicles were given to the Immigration Department?

Interruptions

Mr Singombe: Where are these vehicles? How many of these were given to the Immigration Department? Who defied the President’s order? Can we know? For your information, from Lusaka to Livingstone, there is no transport in between. What chase ups do you mean? There is no transport in Choma Immigration Department as I am talking today. There is no transport at Kalomo. How do you want them to do chase ups in Mapatizya? Who will go there? This Government has not even given a bicycle to immigration officers to enable them go to Mapatizya and conduct chase ups. From Kabwe, there is no transport in between. Only Kasama has transport.

Mr Muteteka: There is transport in Chisamba!

Mr Singombe: I said from Kabwe, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Singombe: I am saying Kabwe. It is before Chisamba. Revisit your civics.

Laughter

Mr Singombe: Mr Chairperson, from Lusaka, we do not have any transport. The next transport you find is in Chipata, but look at the control that we have in between. We need more transport to empower this department.

Sir, with regard to accommodation, it was surprising to find that this department was to construct units for border control officers at K150 million. What do you mean? Are you constructing chicken runs? How many houses and offices are you going to construct from K150 million? Are we serious about what we are doing?

Interruptions

Mr Singombe: Mr Speaker, another issue in this department is the establishment. I have said that we have only 475, 000 officers but look at the influx of foreigners in the country. We have thousands of people coming, but we only have 475, 000. We need this establishment enlarged. We want to investigate and know where some people came from. People like the hon. Member for Kabompo West, Mr Kalenga, who probably comes from Angola.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You shall not go that far, hon. Member of Parliament. Please get back on track.

Continue, please.

Mr Singombe: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry.

What I am trying to say is that the ministry should consider enlarging this department because we have too many foreigners coming into our country. We need breathing space or probably, we should employ more officers in this department. The number that we have currently cannot cope. We should not only talk of internal controls. The most dangerous criminals are coming from other countries and we know and it is on record that our borders are too porous. If we do not equip our officers and increase the establishment, it means the department will not contain the pressure there in.

Mr Chairperson …

Hon. Government Member: Finally!

Mr Singombe: Finally …

Hon. PF Members: No, continue!

Mr Singombe: The rule of the Payroll Management and Established Control System has given the Chief Immigration Officer headaches because most of the officers are left out. They do not even know their future. We need to capture the officers which are left out of this system because it cannot absorb the 475 officers. We need to at least broaden or give room. Simply because of this, you are telling me that the Immigration Department will not recruit.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Singombe: When we talk of job creation and if you cannot recruit in five years, it means you are doing nothing. I wonder where the youth on the streets will go. We heard that the Young Women Christian Association (YWCA) has sent a lot of street kids to colleges. Who is going to employ them if we cannot change the establishment of this department?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Chairman, I am also very grateful to add my voice to this very important ministry.

Mr Chairman, we can go round and round, but the end result is poverty in the Ministry of Home Affairs. We need to take action. I am talking on behalf of the people of Chadiza.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Chadiza has been in existence since 1932, but there is no police station up to today. They are operating from a house. How long are they going to operate from a house?

Now, when I looked at this budget, Chadiza has not been provided for. I hope we shall be considered during the supplementary budget.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: I humbly request that when the supplementary budget is brought to the House, we will all agree because the budget there is already a shortfall. On the news two days ago, the Permanent Secretary was complaining about the bullet proof jackets. He needs some more money which has not been allocated. This means that we will need a lot of money to purchase these things.

Not only this, the Police Force is top heavy in the sense that if you compare policemen in rural areas like in Chadiza and Shangombo with those in town, you will find that they have gone to the same colleges, but those in rural areas are suffering. They do not even know how a payment voucher or cheque from the Police Force looks like.

Hon. Members: Ah.

Mr Mbewe: Yes. When money is released from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, it does not filter to the districts. Why not get the system which the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and the Ministry of Education are using where money is posted directly from the source to the district? Under the Police Force, money goes to the province and for it to reach the district, it does not reach.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: If the hon. Minister and the Permanent Secretary have noted what I have said, I urge them to devise a system from the source to the district so that those people at the district can also buy paper, pens and make their operations move. If we do not adopt that system whereby money goes to the province, then we are going round and round and next year, we shall be where we are today.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Mr Chairman, I rise to support the expenditure relating to the Ministry of Home Affairs. In so doing, I would like to start by commenting on the operations of the Zambia Police.

The face of a police station is the inquiries office. When you go to the inquiries office, the first people you come into contact with are duty officers most of whom are demotivated, absent minded and one wonders whether they are on duty to serve us or show their low morale. I submit that the ministry should channel money towards motivating these officers. I know they work odd hours, but it is important because the job they are performing is important to the nation.

Now, you tell a duty officer that you have a complaint the first problem he will tell you is that he does not have ZP Form 43 which is a pad on which he records a statement. This is very common. Where are we going to if our police officers can not have stationery? I submit hon. Minister that while you are doing a commendable job, I urge you to channel more funds into this because this is the face of Zambia Police. Matters do not end there. After a statement is recorded, a docket is opened. You look at the folder they call a docket, it is loose papers. We can not have this. I submit hard working hon. Minister to pay attention to this aspect. You go to any police station and look at a docket, it is in a disgraceful state. We can do better, can we not? How many years is it after independence?

Once a docket is opened, the case or allegations has to be investigated. They have no transport and again, that is very common. We see motorcades with fifteen or seventeen motor vehicles, can we not rationalise the use of some of these motor vehicles?

The matter does not end there. You report a crime, you rarely see crime officers taking finger prints or photographs at the crime scene to analyse the evidence. I hope this time around, some money will be channeled in that direction because cases are lost because of shoddy investigations. The officers are adequately trained, but we do not give them the tools that they cry for day in day out. I hope with this money, we will support them.

We also need finger print experts. You go to a police station, look at the quality of equipment which they use for picking finger prints, it is deplorable. Some of them are pre-independence. Look at the tables, a table that was supplied in 1963 with NRG description on it. Do we not see these things? In support, I urge the hon. Minister to give Zambia Police a good face.

Not only that, on the issue of quality ballistic experts, most of them when they gave a record of the experience and training, they will say they were trained under Galloway for four weeks. I understudied him. We can do better. Let us train our officers. These officers work under difficult conditions earning low salaries. Why can we not motivate them by at least sending them for training?

As regards forensic pathologists, I am happy at least that K77 million has been allocated towards forensic sciences. I hope we will have forensic pathologists this time around. I know that Zambia Police used to have forensic pathologists based at the headquarters. This is one area which frustrates investigation of cases. I hope we can recruit more people. If we can not, let us train our own.

I would now like to move to the vote relating to the continuous registration of voters. I must commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for allocating some money to this important head. All of us have been elected and for a person to register as a voter, he must have a green national registration card. I would like to give you a pat on the back that this time round money has been set aside for the continuous issue of voters registration cards. I hope this exercise will be carried on properly and not based on parochial party consideration.

The other point I would like to talk about relates to voter registration. The amount of K60 million for Eastern Province, I think, is very little.

I think Eastern Province deserves a little more than K60 million. It is a vast province with many people. I hope that the Minister of Finance and National Planning is listening although he is facing somewhere, but the ear is facing me …

Mr Magande: No, address the Chair.

Mr C. K. B. Banda: … I am talking to the Chairman of course, but my eyes are looking in that direction.

Eastern Province as I said has a large population and to allocate K60 million is not fair. We have many complaints in Eastern Province, but at least, give us some money for continuous issuance of national registration cards. I know that you are not going to repair our roads, but, for now, give us sufficient money for the exercise.

The other point that I want to talk about is the National Archives. I note that this ministry has rightly been allocated K215 million for the extension of the building. This building really has been neglected and it is good that this time around, attention has been given to it.

The offices that are now occupied by the Registrar of Societies are not in good condition. I hope that some money could be found to bring up that building to acceptable standards. For those of us who go to that office, the first thing you see are chairs that were perhaps delivered some 20 to 15 years. I think we can do better, can we not?

On the whole, I would like to submit that if we are serious about combating crime in this country, we must take strong measures to ensure that the law enforcement wings, the investigating officers are adequately funded. I know that you have the Drug Enforcement Commission in place, which is good, but it is not adequately funded as can be evidenced due to insufficient transport. This is why most of the people they apprehend are those who grew chamba in villages. We expect them to catch sophisticated drug traffickers.

Therefore, I appeal with you to please take a sympathetic approach to this important wing of the ministry. We do not want a situation where the Drug Enforcement Commission specialises only in prosecuting cases of abuse of office instead of drug related cases.

For now, this is sufficient and I hope that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who has been taking notes will ensure that he continues from where he left.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairman …

Mr Chibombamilimo: One side!

The Chairman: Order!

It is not one side. Let me make it clear. The Chair wants to be fair to everybody. There are some of you hon. Members who have spoken three or four times and it is only fair that we give chance to those of our colleagues who have not spoken. I am saying so, because I heard a remark from my right (Government side) saying one side. It is not true. I had a Mr Mbewe and somebody else. So, the Chair knows what it is doing.

Hon. Member, please, continue.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, when we stand to debate, it is not that we want to make the Government look like it is not doing anything. We just want to highlight problems that this Government has created.

Laughter

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, if you go to any police station in this country, you will find that the problems are the same just like what other hon. Members have alluded to here on the lack of transport. For instance, if thieves attack me in the night, policemen will instead ask me to provide transport for them to come to my rescue. In such a situation, how possible can that be? Is it not a shame?

All we are saying is that these are very critical people that need to be provided with adequate tools to be able to carry out their work. We should not only say that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is doing so much minus supporting him. We need to support the hon. Minister of Home Affairs by getting money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and take it to his ministry.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: We are passing an amendment and I am urging all hon. Members to support this amendment. We are going to transfer money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and take it to the Ministry of Home Affairs because that is where more money is needed.

Mr Chairman, Northern Province, the largest province in the country, has only been allocated K5.8 billion. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, please let us be fair.

Lusaka Province has been allocated K4.5 billion while North Western Province has K4.8 billion. Hon. Ministers in here, what are you doing and why are you agreeing to these figures?

Laughter

Mr L.J Mulenga: It is very unfair. Let us appropriate money accordingly.

Mr Chairman, this Government has allocated K625 billion for the rehabilitation of our shanty townships. If I were to calculate district by district assuming that there were 100 police stations, this translates into K1 million. So what are you going to rehabilitate? Do you want us to ask the Vice-President for more money from the Disaster Management Program again? Would that be fair on the part of the Vice-President for us to go to his under allocated finances asking for funds to rehabilitate houses that are collapsing? You need to put money to needy areas where it belongs. That is all we are saying. We have no arguments with this Budget, but all we are saying is that we are going to transfer money from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to where it is supposed to be.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Chairman, on the issue of uniforms, you have allocated K3.5 billion. How many uniforms are we going to purchase with this little money? The man has no shoes or vehicle, but that is the man you expect to combat crime.

Mr Kapeya: I think lila fye.

Mr Mulenga: You are not being fair. Let us be honest to our people. Policemen need to be rewarded adequately.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulenga: We have a nation here called Zambia. If we do not protect this Zambia, Chinese will come, Indians will come …

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: They will come and take over. We need to equip them …

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: … so that our national integrity is protected.

Interruptions

Mr Mulenga: Sir, immigration officers need to be empowered. You do not expect the Immigration Department not to have transport.

Mr Kapeya: Hammer!

Mr Mulenga: How do they operate? How do they function? Let is be honest. We can decide and agree on some of these things ourselves in here. When we decide- I hope the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is listening so that we divert some money from- we are not trying to increase his budget- we just want to remove money from certain activities that are inactive and take it to priority areas.

Mr Kapeya: Exactly!

Hon. PF Members: Animals, animals!

Mr Mulenga: I do not want to talk about animals.

Laughter

Mr Mulenga: I want to talk about activities that you allocate and appropriate in this Yellow Book.

Mr Chairperson, you appropriate money here. We want all the money that is appropriated. Even as we discuss and approve this budget, all activities must be spent accordingly. We do not want to be told that there was less domestic borrowing and, therefore, the economy improved. You only neglected certain activity areas. We are spending- that is unacceptable.

For once in this Zambia, can we do things that are correct?

I rest my case and I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Thank you, Mr Chairperson for giving me an opportunity to be part of the debate on the Ministry of Home Affairs.

I am impressed and I appreciate the concern that was shown by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs when he visited a police officer who was shot by thieves in the hospital. He suggested that police officers needed to be protected and he has included it in the Yellow Book. For this task, Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha, we say thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: While we appreciate this gesture, we expect our officers, also, to support the hon. Minister. At times, police officers let us down in certain situations. Once you protect them, they start abusing the facilities.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Sikazwe: We are here to rule and administer the Government. The hon. Minister mentioned that he is in line to recruiting more police officers. By 2015, we expect to have 27,000 police officers.

Mr Kambwili: Iwe natumfwa kale ifyo. Akulandako ifyo be!

Mr Sikazwe: In this regard, I would like to thank the Government for its policy of partnership with the private sector.

Sir, let me confirm that I am one of the beneficiaries of the Government’s policy of partnership with the private sector. In my rural constituency (Chimbamilonga), Impende Fisheries has built a modern police station in Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: I stand and say what is correct and good and, whichever is wrong, I have to defend it.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Hon. Minister, a lot of things have been done and this police station is very modern, but I do not have good accommodation for the officers.

At the moment, the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has given us enough accommodation, but they need rehabilitation. Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) officers used to occupy those houses. However, they need funding for the rehabilitation so that police officers can stay in a better environment.

Mr Chapman …

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: I want to submit to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning …

Interruptions

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Order! Continue.

Mr Sikazwe … to consider this. I propose an increment for the Ministry of Home Affairs. We would like to move the police officers from Lilayi and Kanfinsa to settle in rural constituencies including those for the Opposition.

Mr Kambwili: Finshi ulelanda iwe!

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, rural constituencies are facing a problem of staffing. We need you to fund that ministry so that we recruit more officers so that in the next years, the entire nation will be under the security of Home Affairs.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: We would like to propose that the assistance of the neighbourhood personnel must be reduced so that the cleaning of the police service is felt everywhere in Zambia.

Mr Kambwili: Uleipekanya pa kwima not ukwima ichimeime.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the Immigration Department. Nsumbu Border is near the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). It has been there for the past 45 years. I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to complete the construction of the houses at that border post.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: This is the reason why I propose an increment from K150 million to billions because we have a lot of work to be done. That money is there for the Government to develop this country.

Hon. UDA Members: Quality!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, ever since I reached this age …

Mr Kambwili: Iye!

Mr Sikazwe: I have never had a chance of reading a paper that was written in 1912.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe: I had a chance of going to the National Archives where I learnt that it is one of the best departments in the Ministry of Home Affairs. This Department must be part of the tourism sector to attract foreigners to see what is in stock for Zambia.

Mr Kambwili: Yaba!

Mr Sikazwe: Kambwili, this is the National Archives- you will be very impressed for your good memory and vocabulary.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, the National Archives has a very good setting and a good building.

Mr Kambwili: Mwalebafumya kwisa mudala aba?

Mr Sikazwe: We need to complete that building which is worth K3 billion, but the allocation of K215 million is very small. Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning could you allocate more funds to this projects? We are losing a lot of material and literature which we need to stock properly for tomorrows consultations and reading for the future.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, this place needs to be refurbished. I have appreciated the technology which is there. It is the latest in Zambia and worldwide- the production of topography maps. There is a good system. They have kept the music system for the past 100 years. They have brought all the papers- That assistance from Swedish International Development Agency (SIDA) must be extended to the completion of the building itself.

Mr Ntundu: Hammer!

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, I go to the Immigration Department.

Mr Kambwili: Balekutunfya fye!

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, as I mentioned earlier, the infrastructure development of the Immigration Department has been given K300 million. We cannot even build two houses with that. I rise to support the increment on this budget allocation. We need more immigration officers because the areas bordering DRC are still under pressure. It is just the intervention of Zambia National Service (ZNS) and Zambia Army that have reduced the levels of prohibited immigrants in those areas. Are they professional enough to tackle the Immigration Department? The answer is no. We need accommodation to employ more immigration officers in the borders.

Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Northern Province is the biggest province, but we have just K29 million allocated for the police in the province. Sir, Sub-head 1, Programme 2, Activity 01, Inspection of Police Stations – K91, 500, 000.

Hon. Minister, I would love you to tour the Province with one of these people (Opposition Members of Parliament), you will see the distance from the headquarters to my constituency.

Sir, the distance that people cover is about 500km and when you reach the border, you have to board a boat. Nobody can walk that distance, even Hon. Lubinda who is talking about kilometres from there to the Parliament Buildings cannot manage to travel such a distance.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am very concerned about the security of this country, and as such, there is need for us to put in more money in the Immigration Department and also increase the staff. They may have been included there, but the allocation for fuel is too little. As a Government, we know that money is there, but the allocation for fuel is just too little. In this regard, we have to find more money for this vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, sometimes it is good to be given different names, especially if you do not speak so frequently.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make my contribution on the Ministry of Home Affairs vote. I do not know where this notion of under funding the security wings has come from. I say so because it appears it is very alien to us. I do not think that we really prioritise our areas. The Ministry of Home Affairs and specifically the police need a lot of support. Of late, there has been an increase in the level of crime in this country. There has been an increase in the manner in which criminals carry out their business. That is one of the reasons why we require the police in this country. In this regard, the police need sufficient funding in order for them to operate effectively.

Mr Chairperson, I know that at times, the Government does not collect as much revenue as they would like to. Even then, there should be priority in the funding of institutions such as the police. I live next to Lilayi Police Training School and at times, I take a walk and see what is happening there.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation at Head 11/03 – Programme 02 - Activity 04 - Maintenance of Buildings, the figure of K151,300,000 .00 does not make much sense to me because many of the buildings at Lilayi Police Training School are older than me.

Laughter

Major Chibamba: Surely you cannot put K151, 300, 000 for the rehabilitation of such dilapidated infrastructure at Lilayi Police Training School. Those buildings do not need rehabilitation, they need to be demolished and replaced altogether. I wish to concur with my colleague Hon. Mulenga, that there is great need for us as Parliamentarians to vary some of the funding allocated to undeserving activities. If we are going to post policemen and women from Lilayi, where they have been staying in dilapidated buildings to places such as Shiwang’andu, Sinazongwe, Namwala and Chadiza where there are no buildings at all, these police officers will not perform expected. It is important for us to realise that it does not pay to under fund certain institutions.

Sir, we all know that the police do not have good uniforms and they have been like that for a very long time. How can a worker enjoy his job if he cannot dress smartly or is not paid well? What is there to be proud of if someone cannot get back home with a loaf of bread and have tea with his family? I am sure the majority of us can debate bearing in mind that there is a policeman out there who is taking full charge of our security.

Sir, it is important that we first look at Lilayi Police Training School. It is a source of the brains that we are employing in the nation. Let us give the policeman something to be proud of. Those of us who have been in uniform before including the hon. Minister of Home Affairs will agree with me. It is very demoralising to walk out shabbily dressed. Living in squalor quarters, you cannot expect the police to perform to expectation. At least if their pay is poor, certain conditions of service like accommodation should be improved. I think it has just become a habit because all the time, police officers have to look for provisions using other means.

Sir, due to this fact, I was not surprised when, the other day in town, I was robbed of my valuables. I noticed that there were some policemen standing next to me and they did not do anything. I even suspected that the policemen were part of the gang that attacked me. I think they were just celebrating and saying I was just like Hon. Shikapwasha who did not listen to their plight. I think that is what they were saying. Nonetheless, I am sure we can still move a kilometre further.

Sir, I am also worried about the state of police animals in the force. I am talking about dogs and horses. 

Those are very useful tools in the police force. They can be used for so many operations.. Therefore, they must be properly trained and properly looked after. We must also make sure that we reduce the current animal conflict in terms of who is getting what.

Mr Chairperson, horses are supposed to be very graceful animals. We have experienced a situation where His Excellency the President comes here escorted by mounted police.

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, I was shocked when I looked at the sort of horses. They are almost dying. They are limping and have patches here and there, but they are escorting His Excellency. This is a challenge to us. It is a big challenge.

First of all, the stables where they are kept have never been disinfected for a very long time. Secondly, these are animals which do not receive supplements in terms of food unlike the animals at State House…

Laughter

Major Chibamba:...which depend on grass from the surroundings. Is it not so? There is food supplement there. The horses depend on whoever is looking after them. It looks like you do not have sufficient funding to give to this particular department. Sikanze Police Camp…

Mr Shakafuswa busy talking to the Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha).

Major Chibamba: Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, I am trying to address the Minister of Home Affairs. Please give me chance.

The Chairperson: Order! Yes, I agree with Hon. Major Chibamba. Hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, please give the hon. Minister of Home Affairs time to listen.

Major Chibamba: Sir, I thank you, for that guidance.

Mr Shakafuswa went back to his seat.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that when he tours Sikanze Police Camp, he should extend his tour to the stables. Those animals are in pathetic conditions. They are a sorry sight. We need extra funding to look after those animals.

Like I said, they are very brave in nature. Even the dogs in the kernels need to be properly looked after because they will need veterinary services. Those animals should not appear when His Excellency the President is coming here in the state I saw them. I do not want to see that. It is a big shame and a disgrace on our part. As Zambians, we should not be cruel to animals. They must be well looked after.

Finally, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has been issuing friendly statements when hon. Members approach him. I want to say what I know. I would also like to say some of you hon. Members, not necessarily Hon. General Shikapwasha, but other hon. Members that side must begin to consider yourselves as possible leaders for this nation.

Major Chibamba pointed to the right side of the House.

When that time comes, you will have to look this side as well.

Major Chibamba pointed to the Opposition side.

You will have to look to this side for support. Therefore, let us work together. We will support you and we will also support the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. What we would like to see is that money is put in needy areas. We need police posts all over the country especially in my constituency where we have provided electricity, water and other necessary infrastructure.

I am sure that in fact, at district level, there is a request that has come to the Ministry Headquarters. It must be received and acted upon almost immediately. It improves the efficiency of the police posts and creates a wonderful atmosphere in the entire ministry.

Therefore, I want to say that let us not ignore what all hon. Members of Parliament have said about any ministry. The critical aspect is that we must not under fund sectors which are critical to the welfare of our people.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.{mospagebreak}

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, let me first of all thank you for giving us an opportunity for us to debate the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Police.

Let me also thank all hon. Members of Parliament starting from Hon. Kasongo who opened the debate on a very positive note and gave so many wonderful suggestions for us to take into account as we move this budget and indeed the implementation of this budget.

Let me also thank Hon. Matongo for the many areas that he has touched.  Indeed, we intend to deal with those areas. I would also like to thank all hon. Members who have debated so well to support my ministry. I thank you in the sense that we are seeing this ministry in the same focus as I the minister and the rest of my staff. We shall continue to put resources in place so that you also can also see where these resources are going.

Let me tell you that we have a policy in the ministry encouraging hon. Members of Parliament to mobilise communities to build police posts and where they have capacity to build police stations, my ministry will render support with a number of materials such as cement and iron sheets to enhance these areas of operations.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, let me just make one or two corrections.

Mr Singombe, I would like to thank you for the many areas that have been pointed out in the debate. However, I want to tell you that immigration officers no longer buy their uniforms. We have gotten on top of that situation and the uniforms are better and I can tell you that we are moving towards purchasing combats for them in this budget as you support us.

Hon. Chifumu Banda, I would like to thank you for the wonderful support. We will improve on the enquiries. Indeed, the first cut is the deepest. When you approach the police and you find out that police officers at the enquiries desk are not looking well, it does not motivate them.  My ministry will do everything possible to motivate them. We are going ahead with reviewing their allowances and conditions of service in order for them to be motivated.

I am sorry for Hon. Major Chibamba that the police were not there to help you recover your valuables. I hope that the thieves will not bother you again. I am sure the thieves who stole your bibles are Christians.

As a minister, it is my humble duty to visit all the constituencies once we go on recess so that we can see the position of the police and other agencies in my ministry. Indeed, I shall visit the stables and the dog kernels in order to ensure that these animals are dealt with.

Sir, there was an observation that there is too much money in one particular vote for international travel. This is because we have consolidated all the activities of all the agencies in my ministry under that vote so that we can control it.

Mr Chairperson, I thank all hon. Members for supporting the vote.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

VOTE 11/01 − (Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs – Headquarters − K117, 183, 840, 560)

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Sub–Head 14, Programme 3, Activity 07 − Staff Welfare − K460,000,000. I would like to find out what this amount is for.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, there is a question on page 56, if I followed him correctly, Programme 3 − Financial Management, Activity 07 − Staff Welfare. He wants to know what that figure is for.

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, this is for the loans taken by our officers as a morale booster.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 11/01 − Zambia Police − Headquarters, under Sub–Head 14 – Human Resource Administration Unit (Accounts), Programme 3 − Financial Management, Activity 07 − Staff Welfare, by the deletion of K460, 000, 000.00 and the substitution therefor of K390,000,000.00. I seek support from the Minister.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, we have no objection to the amendment.

I thank you, Sir.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I seek clarification on Sub–Head 1, Programme 8  − Implementation of various Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP), Activities 01  − Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K1,200,000,000, 02 – Grading of Camp Roads – K1,150,000,000, 03 – Cell Rehabilitation – K1650,000,000, and 04 – Rehabilitation of police Stations – K2,000,000,000. All these allocations have been reduced. Why have we reduced when we want to improve the welfare of police officers?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, these are areas where we think we can commence to do the work and that in the next budget we can increase the allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-Head 1, Programme 7 – General Operations, Activity 09 – SARPCCO Meetings – K250,000,000. This amount has been allocated to SARPCCO Meetings, but if we go to Sub–Head 12 Human Resource and Administration Unit (Sport), Programme 7, Activity 01 – SARPCCO Games – K249,852,119 SARPCCO Games means that a lot of officers will go for these games than those who will go for the meetings, but have been allocated a lot of money. Why?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, this year, Zambia is the Chairman for Southern Africa Police. This is the SARPCCO Commissioners, and therefore, we are going to host the annual conference as well as sports. Hence, the money for hosting the entire conference is going to be higher than just for officers going to attend the meeting.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, I do not know how this budget was done, however, I seek clarification on Sub-Head 1, Programme 8, Activities 01  − Rehabilitation of Police Camps – K1,200,000,000, 02 – Grading of Camp Roads – K1,150,000,000, 03 – Cell Rehabilitation – K1650,000,000, and 04 – Rehabilitation of police Stations – K2,000,000,000. All these activities have been given equal amounts. I do not know what they took into account to allocate the same amount to these activities.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chota is very observant. It is only that all these activities wear the same uniform.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I wish to draw the attention of the Hon. Minister to Sub-Head 11, Programme 5, Activity 01 – In-Service Training – K100,000,000. I am wondering why we have these figures. Activity 02 – Training (Colleges and Universities) for Police Officers – K300,000,000, Activity 03 – Overseas Training for Police Officers – K100,000,000, which is only sufficient for one officer depending on the kind of training. Could the hon. Minister focus on something so that we have officers trained? The figures we have allocated are not adequate.

The Deputy Chairperson: It seems that was more or less a comment rather than a question. However, if you have something to say hon. Minister, you can go ahead.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, our emphasis is on localising our training to cut down on the cost of sending officers abroad. Of course, we shall continue to send officers overseas with the participation of our Co-operating Partners like the United Nations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-Head 1, Programme 8, Activity 04 – Cell Rehabilitation – K1,650,000,000. I want to find out how this activity is related to poverty reduction activity.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, the capacity building and improvement of conditions in the cells reduce chances of diseases and chances of our people being poverty stricken, and hence, it is a poverty reduction programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Singombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub–Head 23, Programme 7 – Health Management, Activity 02. May I know why there has been no allocation for procurement of ARVs in this year’s budget?

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Musosha: Mr Chairman, it has been announced by the Ministry of Health that there is going to be free distribution of ARVS to every citizen in this country and so there is no need to budget for them.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 3, Programme 7, Activity 03 – Provide and Preserve Evidence of Chemical Nature – K700,000,000, the allocation for last year was K1,750,000. Could the hon. Minister give details of what evidence of chemical nature will be preserved considering the huge increase from K1,750,000.00 to K700,000,000?

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 3, Programme 7, Activity 03 – Provide and Preserve Evidence of Chemical Nature – K700,000,000.00, like I mentioned in my policy debate, we are moving the police to a higher level of technical ability for them to be able to move to preserving evidence and this is why last year, it was commenced and this year we are moving to buying and ensuring that this activity is taken care of.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 21, Programme 7, Activity 2 – Procurement of Traffic Equipment – K35,800,000.00, I would like the hon. Minister to shade light on this amount because it is too little compared to the number of accidents we have in this country …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Nsanda you are debating, can you just go straight to the question.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Chairman, I just want to compare this amount to the amount for riot equipment which is K309 million when we do not have riots everyday, yet cars move on a daily basis.

Lieutenant General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, on Sub-Head 21, Programme 7, Activity 2 – Procurement of Traffic Equipment – K35,800,000.00, this is part of the threshold  for us to pay for the equipment that we have. As for the riot equipment, we have to replace as the equipment we have is old.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/01, as amended ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/03 − (Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training School − K11,501,809,167.00).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on Head 11/03 Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training

(i) Under 1: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2: General Administration, Activity 01: Training, by the deletion of K10,000,000.00 and the substitution therefore of K80,000,000.00.

Mr Mwansa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order on the Government, whether it is correct for them to allow the Minister of Home Affairs to give us answers from his head when his staff should have given him a file that contains explanations and details of the Vote. Is this Government in order to continue punishing the hon. Minister by making him answer questions from his head?

Mr Mbewe: He is intelligent!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Procedurally, there is nothing wrong, it is correct. Could the hon. Member, continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move an amendment on Head 11/03 Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training

(i) Under 1: Human Resources and Administration Unit, Programme 2: General Administration, Activity 01: Training, by the deletion of K10,000,000.00 and the substitution therefore of K80,000,000.00.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, it seems there was an agreement that we reduce staff welfare by K70,000.00 and I was wondering where Hon. Lubinda and the hon. Minister were putting it. That is what they have moved to Lilayi for training and so it goes from K10,000,000 to K80,000,000 and so I agree to item number (i). As for item (ii) …

The Deputy Chairperson: We have not come to that yet.

Amendment to item (i) agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, that man cannot argue an amendment he has not heard.

Mr Mbewe: It was circulated iwe!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I beg to move a further amendment on Head 11/03 Zambia Police − Ministry of Home Affairs − Lilayi Police Training School.

(ii) Under 1: Human Resource and Administration Unit, Programme 2: General Administration, Activity 04: Maintenance of Buildings, by the deletion of K151,300,000.00 and the substitution therefore of K451,300,000.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, I am not sure where this amount of money is coming from. If you look at the total police allocation, there is an addition of K67 billion that is shown on page 82. If Hon. Lubinda is trying to move some figures within there, I have no objection. Our tradition, when discussing Estimates, is not to increase figures without indicating where those amounts are coming from. I and my officials and, indeed, Cabinet have a lot of problems in re-writing the Budget if we do not know where these moneys are coming from.

Mr Chairman, it is not an easy job, next week we will be going through all the revenue Acts which are being considered and we have already presented them to this House and it is not an easy thing to add up numbers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, last week I was told through the press that the Budget was very easy to write, but today, I am being told that it is not so easy after all. I would like to state that it should not be the expedience of writing the Budget over the needs and priorities of the society. I think what is important is the needs of the people and not the amount of work this is going to create.

Mr Chairman, the very reason the Budget is brought to this House is so that the hon. Members sitting in here can have the opportunity to amend the Budget to suite the aspirations of the people, irrespective of how much work it would create. I would like to state that it is the practice of this House and I am sure Hon. Magande knows that just as much as the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services knows. It is practice of this House not to amend a vote unless it is on the Order Paper. The head that is on the order paper today is the Ministry of Home Affairs and that is what I am addressing. Therefore, I am proposing not an increase in the budget. Hon. Magande, the time will come when I shall show you where I am getting the K300 million. If you would like, Mr Chairman, I am willing to discuss where I am proposing an amendment.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, Hon. Lubinda has said exactly the procedure. We make amendments to vote under discussion. So, can he tell me under Vote 11, where he is getting the K300 million. He is telling me we only make amendments either by subtraction or addition. He is adding K300 million. Can he tell us under the same vote where he has found the K300 million. He should not say he will come to tell us when we come to a head which we are not discussing now. That is not procedural.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I am standing before you and this is the sixth year that I have been here. Over the last six years I have moved a lot of amendments. I want to say, it is not procedural for me to amend a vote that is not yet presented on the Order Paper. I am only limited to amending a head that is on the Order Paper. Now, I said earlier that if hon. Magande would like to know where I propose an amendment when the head comes on the order paper I will say that I want to amend the Ministry of Finance and National Planning the allocation to staff welfare where he has allocated a huge amount of K2.13 billion, an increase of more than K1.3 billion from the amount of K834 million that was allocated last years, 2006. When the Ministry of Finance and National Planning budget comes, I shall move another amendment to balance his budget. So, he ought not to worry about where I will get the money from. I am talking about getting money from where it is unnecessarily being locked up when the police in Lilayi are sleeping in...

The Deputy Chairman: Please, let us not begin the debate.

Mr Lubinda: …because of the greed of the Minister of Finance and National Planning. So, it is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning that is going to release the K300 million which shall go to the maintenance of the houses at Lilayi Training School where we are supposed to be training 27,000 police officers. The shortfall that we have in this country is 27,000 police officers.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: So, Sir, I have stated I am not by the Standing Orders, I cannot circulate an amendment to a vote which is not on the Order Paper. The only one I have circulated today is for the Ministry of Home Affairs and when the time comes, I shall circulate an amendment to reduce the allocation in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning under the vote of staff welfare.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Chairman, Hon. Lubinda is already anticipating a reduction on a vote which has not come before the House. He has not asked anybody on this side to explain the expenditure on that vote. I could tell you that the vote might be for car loans including for the police. Why are you saying Lilayi is more important than giving car loans for the police who are already on discussion now? The staff welfare under my ministry is not only for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning staff. It is for the whole civil service. You do not know the details of that until we come to that particular expenditure vote. So, you cannot start subtracting something that you have not discussed and you do not understand.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members we cannot go on indefinitely, I will give the Floor to Hon. Lubinda and then I will put the question.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairman, I want to prove to Hon. Magande that I know what I am talking about. The money allocated to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for staff welfare is not for police because the Ministry of Home Affairs also has allocations for staff welfare. It is as easy as that Hon. Magande. I want to say that we come into this House, as equal and nobody should assume that they are the repository of wisdom or knowledge on how Zambia must be governed. That is the duty of all of us in this House.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is a reason why the Constitution provides for this House to approve the budget. I want to state that much as he would say to me that this is money for motor vehicles and so on, I am arguing that it is more expedient to spend money to build accommodation for our police officers than to give ourselves loans for motor vehicles.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is my point. So, he can say to me…

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairman, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is Hon. Lubinda in order to state that we are equal and have equal knowledge with regard to the preparation of the budget when we…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairman: Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Chituwo: …when it is us who have prepared the budget and we have explanatory notes. Is he in order to state that we do not know what we have prepared? I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairman.

The Deputy Chairman: Mr Lubinda, please, can you take that point of order into account as you debate.

Continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Thank you, Sir…

The Deputy Chairman: Be brief.

Mr Lubinda: I will be brief. The author of our Constitution knew that the executive would come with a budget and that budget would be debated by this House. From what I am hearing it is as though this House should be transformed into a rubberstamp on the basis that the people on your left have no knowledge of how they arrived with figures in the budget. That is wrong.

Secondly, on a matter of procedure, Sir, how else would you expect this House to increase allocations in the budget if you cannot consider making amendments to heads that are yet to be presented? How else would you do it? If we go by that, it means that all of us in here should declare that this budget is sacrosanct. It is casting stone and iron. We should therefore not even waste people’s time debating here. We should today adjourn sine die and say that Hon. Magande and his Government have already decided and what is in here is what they want.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think that we are reopening the debate. Can I …

Ms Mumbi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am not granting a point of order. I am putting the question.

Hon. PF Members called for the division.

Question that Vote 11/03 ─ Zambia Police ─ Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Lilayi Police Training ─ K151,300,000.00 be amended put and the House voted.

Ayes ─ (49)

Mr C K B Banda
Mr E M Banda
Mr Beene
Mr Bwalya 
Mr Chanda 
Mr Chella 
Major Chibamba 
Mr Chimumbwa 
Mr Chisala 
Dr Chishya
Ms Chitika 
Mr Chitonge 
Mr Chongo 
Mr Chota 
Mr Hamusonde 
Ms Imbwae 
Mr Kambwili 
Mr Kapeya 
Mr Kasoko 
Dr Katema 
Mr Katuka 
Mr Lubinda 
Dr Machungwa 
Mr Malama 
Ms Masiye 
Mr Matongo
Mr Mooya 
Mr Msichili 
Mr Mtonga 
Mr Mukanga 
Mr C Mulenga 
Mr L P J Mulenga 
Ms Mumbi 
Mr Mushili 
Mrs Musokotwane
Ms Mwamba 
Mr E C Mwansa 
Mr Mweemba 
Mr Mwenya 
Mr D Mwila 
Dr Njobvu 
Mr Nsanda 
Mr Nyirenda 
Ms N J M Phiri 
Reverend Sampa-Bredt 
Dr Scott 
Mr Sikota 
Mr Simama 
Mr Sing’ombe

Tellers for Ayes:

Mr Simbao
Mr Mukanga

 

Noes ─ (62)

Mr Akakandelwa 
Mr A Banda 
Mr N K Banda 
Mr Bonshe 
Mr Chazangwe 
Mr Chibombamilimo 
Mr Chilembo 
Mr Chinyanta 
Mr Chipungu 
Dr Chituwo 
Ms Cifire 
Mr Daka 
Mr Hamir 
Mr Imasiku 
Mr Kaingu 
Mr Kalenga 
Dr Kalumba 
Mr Kakusa 
Mr Kazonga 
Mr Kunda 
Mr Liato 
Ms Limata 
Ms Lundwe 
Professor Lungwangwa 
Mr Machila 
Mr Magande 
Mr Mangani 
Ms Masebo 
Mr Mbewe 
Mr Mbulakulima 
Mr Milupi
Mr Misapa 
Mr Mpombo 
Mr Mubika 
Mr Muchima 
Mr Mufalali 
Ms Mulasikwanda 
Mr Mulonga 
Mr Musosha 
Mr Muteteka 
Mr Mwaanga 
Mr M B Mwale 
Mr V Mwale 
Mr Mwanza 
Mr Mwapela 
Mr Namulambe 
Ms Njapau 
Mr Nkhata 
Reverend Nyirongo 
Mr Phiri D B 
Dr Puma 
Mr Shakafuswa 
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha 
Mr Sichilima 
Mr Sichamba 
Mr Sikazwe 
Mr Silawve 
Mr Simbao 
Mr Sinyinda 
Mr Taima 
Mr F R Tembo 
Ms V Tembo

Tellers for Noes:

Mrs Musokotwane 
Mr Liato

Question accordingly negatived.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, you will recall that when we went for a division, we were about to break for tea. Now that we have finished with the division, we will suspend business for fifteen minutes.

Business was suspended from 1835 hours until 1850 hours.

VOTE 11/04 – (Zambia Police-Ministry of Home Affairs-State House Police –K8. 989,418,737.00).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairman, under Sub-head 4-Operations Unit, Programme 7, Activity 01 – VIP Protection, I would like to find out what has prompted this increase. We have an increase from K139.500, 000 to K1.439,500,000.00. I want to find out what VIP protections are increasing.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, there is an improvement on equipment holding for VIP protection.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 11/11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Central Province –K11. 425, 302, 892.00).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, on Programme 7, Activity – 01 – Reduction of Crime – K82, 000, 000, I would like to find out why we are having a reduction in the amount of money allocated to this vote. We had K100, 379, 404 last year, but this year, we are proposing K82, 000, 000 reduction and we want crime to be reduced. I seek clarification.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Musosha): Mr Chairman, on Programme 7, Activity 01 - Reduction of Crime – K82, 000, 000, you will note that the amount is not being reduced as such. If you look in the welfare of police, some amounts have been reduced to increase on the welfare itself, especially in the provision of mealie meal to our officers.

I thank you, Sir

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairman, from the answer given by the hon. Deputy Minister, the welfare revolving fund is about K10, 000, 000, so even if you add K10, 000, 000 to K82, 000, 000, there will still be a reduction. May I have a proper answer?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, the previous answer is the best that we can give.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates
Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can I appeal to those on my right to listen. You are disturbing the whole importance of the budget. You have to listen. Otherwise, you are not paying attention.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand par of the Estimates.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE − 15/04 (Ministry of Home Affairs − Archives − K1,790,785,213.00).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment under Sub-head 1, Programme 2, Activity 05 − Archives Building Extension, by the deletion of K215,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K315,000,000.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, while we appreciate the need for us to continue constructing the new building, the amendment at this moment is not in order to the rest of the budget allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, you heard earlier this afternoon that about seven Members of Parliament on either side of the House debated the National Archives. Each one of them, including the Minister of Home Affairs when he was giving his policy debate, lamented the fact that the construction of the National Archives Building has taken such a very long time. Because of that the work of the officers at the National Archives is being affected.

Furthermore, the record management at the National Archives is drastically affected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda, make your point succinctly. Otherwise, we are opening debate.

Mr Lubinda: Yes, Sir, I would like to convince my colleagues and I can only do that if I give them the rationale why …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, just come straight to the argument, otherwise, we are …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Sir, the National Archives serves as the memory of Zambia. I want to remind you that three week ago, in answering a question that I posed, the Vice-President said that they did not have sufficient time to research and yet I had put the question in October. The reason for that is because the memory of the nation is not functioning very well. It is not functioning because we are not allocating the required resources to the National Archives Department. That is the reason, Sir, why I am asking for a very modest increase of only K100 million.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): I just wanted to say that this amendment is not acceptable to Government and that is the Government’s position.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Question put and amendment negatived.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You know this is a budget. If we are going to do what we are doing- I am particularly concerned that this is coming from my right and yet we are considering a budget proposed by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

VOTE − 15/05(Ministry of Home Affairs – Immigration Department − (K120,000,000).

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Sir, may I have clarification on Sub-head 1, Programme 7, Activity 04 – Procuring of Water and Land Transport Facilities – K120,000,000. I would like to know specific areas were these water and land transport facilities are targeted.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, we are slowly starting to target all areas where immigration operations are taking place like in Luapula and on the Lake Kariba and in many other areas we have border posts and are unable to access by water. This is what we have put this money for.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/06 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – National Registration Department – K17,207,846,970.00)

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I seek clarification on Programme 7 – Issuance of National Identity Documents – Activities 01 and 02. I wonder why there is a reduction of close to K6 billion in the office of the National Registration Department for mobile registration and continuous registration for the issuance of National Registration Cards. What is the reason for that reduction? I request Sir, that as I put the question, Hon. Magande must not be insulting me like he is doing.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I want to make a clarification. You know, this way the Chair always advises that when we are dealing with serious business like this, I think it is better that we concentrate on what we are discussing because the Chair is concentrating as well. The Chair cannot hear the running commentaries. When you ask for a point of order on a particular issue, I will not notice because I am busy and I want us to proceed. Therefore, you are distracting my attention. In short, I am appealing to hon. Members not to make running commentaries. The hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs will continue.

Mr Musosha: Mr Chairperson, I think on both sides of this House, you will agree with me that prior to the general elections, mobile elections…

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order. I am not known for insulting anybody. Is the hon. Member for Kabwata in order to say I uttered insulting words in this House without substantiating what I said?

The Deputy Chairperson: Unfortunately, that point of order has come at a time when the Chair had already made comments. In this case, that point of order has been overtaken by events because the Chair had made some comments before that point of order was raised. The hon. Minister of Home Affairs can continue.

Mr Musosha: Sir, I was saying that both sides of this House will agree with the ministry’s involvement in this important exercise. Prior to the general elections, the ministry conducted widely the mobile registration of all citizens, preparing for general elections. You will agree with me that there is need to reduce in this area.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, if I remember correctly, most of the…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_____________
The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 8th March, 2007.