DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY 

Thursday, 29th March, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

SEMINAR FOR MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT TO BE HELD BY THE BANK OF ZAMBIA

Mr Speaker: I wish to announce to the House that the Bank of Zambia will hold a seminar for hon. Members at Mulungushi Conference Centre on 1st April, 2007. Registration for the seminar will commence on Friday, 30th March, 2007 from 15 hours to 17 hours at Mulungushi Conference Centre. The seminar is intended to sensitise hon. Members of the various functions of the central bank. A detailed programme of the seminar will be circulated to hon. Members in due course. I urge all hon. Members to attend the seminar.

Thank you.
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QUESTIONS

FUEL TAXES

381. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:
(a) what type of taxes were currently embodied in the price of fuel;

(b) how much revenue was raised from 1st January, 2004, to 31st December, 2006, broken down in respective categories of taxes, year by year;

(c) how the revenue raised from these taxes was utilised; and

(d) how much of this revenue was diverted to meet other national obligations.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Mr Speaker, the taxes applicable to petroleum products in Zambia include:

(i) import duty;

(ii) Value Added Tax (VAT); and

(iii) excise duty.

Import duty at 5 per cent is charged both on petroleum feed stock (crude oil) and refined petroleum products that are imported in the country.

Sir, excise duty is charged on fuel whether imported or produced locally. The following rates apply:

(i) petrol 60 per cent, out of which 15 per cent goes to Road Fund as fuel levy;

(ii) diesel 30 per cent, out which 15 per cent goes to the Road Fund as fuel levy;

(iii) kerosene 15 per cent; and
(iv) heavy fuel oils (HFO) 30 per cent.

Mr Speaker, VAT is a consumption tax charged on the full selling price of taxable supplies after taking into account import and excise duties and other costs. Therefore, VAT at the rate of 17.5 per cent applies to petrol, diesel and HFO. Kerosene is exempted from VAT.

Mr Speaker, with regard the revenue which was raised from 1st January, 2004, to 31st December, 2006, broken down in respective categories of taxes, year by year is as follows:

Tax    2004    2005   2006
(K’bn)    (K’bn)    (K’bn)

Customs Duty   46.0     47.0   45.7
Excise Duty   351.6    456.4   451.6
o/w Fuel Levy   120.4    175.5   186.1
Value Added Tax  247.0    265.0   344.0

Total    644.6    768.6   841.3

Mr Speaker, all the revenues raised from the above mentioned taxes were used in financing Government programmes and activities in the budget as approved by this Parliament. 
Sir, the revenues collected by the Government are put in one basket or pot called Treasury Account from which all expenditures are financed as approved by Parliament. This being the case, the diverting of revenues does not come in.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the money that was meant for fuel levy was released in full to the Ministry of Communications and Transport.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, the answer is yes.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, may I know whether Tazara and the Zambia Railway Systems also pay fuel levy. If they do, how do they benefit from their fuel levy?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, yesterday, we were dealing with Tazara and the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport said that the Government was not supporting Tazara. Indirectly, we are supporting it because sometime back when they had financial problems, we exempted them from paying fuel levy. The Railway Systems of Zambia pays fuel levy and we have been discussing also giving them latitude not to pay. However, since they are not a Government institution, we, as a Government, want to know where the revenue, which we will forego, is going to be invested. In essence, we would like to be very much involved in determining the use of any fuel levy that they may not pay to the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, my question is similar to the one that has just been raised. May I find out the levels of exemption that they are going to give to the operators of water vessels who are buying fuel, but are not benefiting from it.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, we have been hoping the private sector would be very interested in water transport. Unfortunately, they are very few who are interested. As a result, we do not have an organised water transport organisation. Therefore, we have not had any negotiations for the exemption of fuel levy.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the cost of fuel in Zambia is one of the highest in the sub-region. Considering that it is a major component of production, is the Government considering reducing some of those taxes in order for Zambian fuel to be competitive in terms of pricing?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, while we do admit that fuel is a large component of production, we do not believe that exempting it from some taxes or reducing the prices at the pump level is going to assist with production. To help in reducing production, diesel is taken into account as an allowable cost when a production unit makes its tax returns. This year, we decided to include petrol and Hon. Mwiimbu should look at paragraph 137 of the Budget Speech for the year 2007. He will find that at that paragraph, we are now going to allow 20 per cent of the cost of petrol as allowable allowance for a production unit that is going to make their tax returns. We are targeting the production units and not those who buy petrol for leisure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, when the hon. Minister mentioned the taxes that go into fuel levy, I wonder why he did not include the K152 per litre that the Government has added for building up fuel reserves for the nation.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, the question was: What types of taxes are currently embodied in the price of fuel. The levy that the hon. Member is referring to is not a tax, but a levy that is only for a specific period and is for the purposes of establishing reserves.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning aware that the fuel for which we pay tax is sub-standard due to drivers mixing it with other contents?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, as well as the hon. Minister, is not aware of that. When I buy fuel for my farm, I check to make sure that it has not been tampered with. If it has, the supplier has an obligation to take it back. I hope Hon. Sing’ombe does not use fuel that has been contaminated between the supply point and his consumption area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, is this Government aware that we are losing a lot of foreign exchange from truckers who, as a result of the high price of fuel compounded by the high taxation, are filling their safari tanks as they come into Zambia and they do not spend any money on fuel?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, as Hon. Kambwili drives from here to the Copperbelt, if he decides to stop at Kapiri Mposhi to have his lunch and does not stop in Kabwe, there is nothing that I can do. He has the prerogative to decide where to eat from.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Speaker, may the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning inform the House what the airlines pay to the Zambian Government in form of taxation and also those who pass here having already refuelled in other countries.
Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, that is a new question because I do not know what kind of taxes those who over fly Zambia’s airspace pay. I would rather the hon. Member reframes the question so that we can answer him adequately.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said they did not include one of the charges which he called a levy because it is not a tax. I would like to know whether there are any other levies on fuel other than the K182 per liter that we do not know about that he is aware of.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member would assist me like his neighbour did, to mention a levy which I might not be aware of because I am not aware of the other levies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out, through you, what happens to the VAT on fuel levy which was previously in a redundant account. I remember last time we used a little on roads in Chimwemwe. What happens with that money which is in the redundant account and where does it go?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, as we have said, we have one account where all the revenues go. We do not have redundant accounts of Government. Perhaps, the hon. Member can assist us. Since he says the money was used on roads in Chimwemwe, it would appear this redundant account was somewhere in Kitwe and I am not aware of that.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter
Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning said the levy that we are paying for the fuel reserves will only be for a certain period of time. How long will is this period of time? When do we expect the consumer to stop paying tax?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, from the information from the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, we are aiming to create reserves for six months. Depending on the price, I am not quite sure when this is going to be stopped.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether jet fuel attracts any levy in the same way as the railways pay fuel levy?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, it does not.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister not concerned about the redundant account which is somewhere in Kitwe disbursing Government funds. We would like him to give us a little more information as we all would like to benefit from it.

Laughter

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, the fact that you have your left and your right should not mean that all the questions from the people on the right go to the left and the questions from the people on the left go to the right. That question clearly is meant for Hon. Nsanda.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, one of the reasons fuel prices in Zambia are very high is probably the many taxes lumped onto the price of fuel. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning whether he is considering reducing or removing some of these taxes to help reduce the price of fuel.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, we do reduce taxes for production units in order to help them reduce their cost of production. We do allow them to indicate what they had spent when submitting their tax returns. But we do not intend to wholesomely reduce taxes just for the sake of anybody who wants to use petrol. We are importing as Hon. Kakoma said and we have not yet started mining the oil in Zambezi. We are importing this oil at great cost and we need to recover that cost. This is also part of the money the Government uses for infrastructure and development in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

HIGH SCHOOL AT PAMBASHE

382 Dr Chishya (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Education whether the Government had any plans to construct a high school at Pambashe in Kawambwa District.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, the Government has no plans to construct a high school in Pambashe, but has plans to construct a high school at Ponde in Chienge, Lukwesa in Mwense and Milenge in Milenge. As for the other high schools in the province, they will be sorted out as resources are made available in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa: Much obliged, Mr Speaker.

Sir, is the hon. Minister aware that there is no high school in the Bangweulu Swamps in the Luapula Province and people have been agitating for one for a long time? In view of this situation, does the hon. Minister not consider it an issue that deserves immediate attention?

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the ministry is as aware of the situation in the Bangweulu area as it is of the situation in many other areas. However, we follow certain criteria in the construction of high schools. At the moment, new districts like Kazungula, Itezhi-tezhi and Chienge are being given priority.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Is the hon. Minister aware that the most congested and deprived district in terms of secondary school infrastructure is Mansa District which has only one grade one school, Mansa High School. Mwense District has two existing grade one schools which are Chipili High School and Mwense Secondary and Lukwesa High School which I found.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we are aware.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, Kawambwa has about three high schools. One of them is a mission high school called Chimpempe which is struggling. What is the ministry doing to ensure that it supports Chimpempe High School since it is not going to build another high school?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether that question was about construction of a new high school or the structure which is incomplete. If it is the construction of a structure which is incomplete, as the hon. Member stated, that structure has barely been funded. The ministry plans to complete all the incomplete structures as part of educational provision in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, one of the factors that may persuade the Government to open a high school in a particular district will be the population density. Is the hon. Minister saying that regardless of that factor, whether a place is under populated or not, a high school will be constructed, especially in Eastern Province.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am delighted that the hon. Member is very much aware of the criteria used in selecting areas for the construction of schools. We have a very comprehensive school mapping which indicates to us the population density, population rates as well as classroom pupil ratios across the different parts of the country. All these are various factors which emanate from the school mapping costs which indicates to us where schools can be located. That is the criteria we use. Of course, those areas that are highly deprived are given priority so that more and more people can have access to education.

I thank you, Sir.

_____{mospagebreak}

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES in the Chair]

THE INCOME TAX (Amendment) Bill, 2007

Clauses 1, 2, and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

CLAUSE 4 – (Amendment of Section 37)

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 4, on page 4, in lines 35 to 36, by the deletion of the words “seven hundred and twenty” and the substitution therefor of the words “one million six hundred and twenty”.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Madam Chairperson, we oppose this particular amendment and what we have provided for in our legislation is a result of research. We have taken into account various incomes of the persons affected. Therefore, we feel that the figure which we have proposed is the right figure.

Now, the mover of this amendment is suggesting K1,620,000. The question which may be asked is: Where has he got this figure from? What is the rationale for presenting this particular figure? I submit that it has no basis whatsoever? It is a figure plucked from the air.

Laughter

Mr Kunda: There is no research or reasoning which has gone into this. The Government is going to vote against this amendment which must be rejected outrightly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the amendment I am proposing is on the allowable pension contribution. The reason I am moving this amendment is to give effect to the intention of Government.

The Government proposed that they increase the allowable pension contribution from K15,000 to K60,000 per month as a way of encouraging Zambians to make savings. In their argument, they said that because of that relief, there shall be a revenue loss of K7 billion. I am afraid the Government in coming up with that figure did not use any mathematics or arithmetic whatsoever and missed the point.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Let me present my case for the sake of the learned hon. Minister of Justice.

Madam Chairperson, for the Government to have a revenue loss of K7 billion, they ought to give a tax relief which is over and above the threshold of tax. The threshold of tax in Zambia according to the budget presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is K500,000. This means that any person who contributes anything less than K75,000 per month to the pension scheme is paying an already allowable amount. If you look at the Bill, it says K60,000 or 15 per cent of the salary or whichever is less.

Now, 15 per cent or put it the other way, K60,000 is 15 per cent of K400,000. It means the maximum they can pay per month is 15 per cent. The K400,000 is within the threshold. This means that the Government is not giving tax relief to the people of Zambia. If the Government intends to give people any tax relief, in which case they have mentioned a figure of K60,000, then what we should do, for the sake of the learned hon. Minister of Justice, is start by looking at the maximum amount a person who pays pension receives without attracting tax and a factor of 15 per cent should be used. That amount will be K75,000. Therefore, K75,000 across the board is tax free. If you want to give people tax incentives or tax relief of K60,000, it must be K60,000 above the K75,000. K60,000 plus K75,000 adds to K135,000. If you multiply K175,000 by 12, it will give you K1,620,000. I hope you can see the rationale. That is how come the figure of K1,620,000 came about.

Madam Chairperson, once that is done, the amount of Government revenue lost shall still be less than the K7 billion that has been projected in the Budget. Therefore, there will not be any extra revenue loss than the grand K7 billion. The reason for coming up with this amendment is because our Zambian people must be made to save so that they prepare themselves for the time when they are tired and retire. As things are now, pensions are not attractive to the Zambian people because of the little amounts that are being paid. We know very well that thrift in this country is not a culture. Very few of our people voluntarily save in banks. This is because of the tax problems and cost of running bank accounts. This amendment is in line with the thinking of Government, except that now I am putting it in a context that will be understood. Even the taxman and taxwoman will not understand what this is ending at if we say that K60,000 or 15 per cent of one’s salary, whichever is lower, shall be tax exempt, when actually that already is tax exempt.

Mr Mulongoti: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulongoti: Madam Chairperson, cross-country debate is over. Is he not able to put his figures across in a very quick and short way so that we understand what he is talking about?

Interruptions

Mr Mulongoti: I rise on a very serious point of order, Madam Chairperson.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The point of order is that the hon. Member on the Floor’s explanation has taken slightly too long. My guidance is that we, as a House, probably need very clear understanding of this. This is a debate and, therefore, let us allow very clear debate though we have to be precise and not repetitive. Can you go to the point, hon. Member.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the reason this House has allowed amendments to be made is that …

The Chairperson: Order! You are qualifying my ruling. Can you go straight to the point.

Mr Lubinda: Madam, may I make it clear to my colleagues in this House why I am making this amendment. Unless I explain myself to my satisfaction, I will be denied the opportunity to do so.

Madam Chairperson, I have advanced two reasons why it is necessary to amend the Bill so that we make it possible for everybody in this House to understand. What I solicit is the support of this House for the sake of the Zambian people out there. We want to make it possible for them to make contributions to their pension without the Government asking for any extra tax on contributions to pension.

I thank you, Madam.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, let me start by commenting on Hon. Lubinda’s statement that a taxman does not understand this because it has been brought here by the Government. I beg the House to understand. The Government is made up of civil servants and politicians. It also includes members of the House on your right and left. When you say that the taxman will not understand, you are giving a wrong statement that the Budget and the measures before us have not had technical input from the civil servants that know all these things. That is incorrect. The advice from the taxmen, the technicians is that the allowable allowance of pension contribution is on top of the K500,000, which is the threshold for Pay As You Earn. What you are doing now, is that you are adding another allowable allowance of K1.6 million to the K500,000, which we have given. That is what the taxman is saying.

Interruptions

Mr Magande: Therefore, neither you nor I is a taxman. If you add K1.6 million to K500,000 as the non- taxable allowance for anybody who is working, you are going to lose revenue. That is simple logic. If, therefore, you want this House to be swayed to increase the threshold on Pay As You Earn from K500,000 plus K60,000 per month to K2.1 million, we are going to lose revenue. Where are we going to get the money to support the Budget which we have been discussing in this House?

Madam Chairperson, I beg that we move and make progress. This is an incorrect amendment and it should be rejected.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, let me make this very clear and I hope the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will follow. I want to read the memorandum of this Bill so that he understands exactly what he means with regard to this amendment, and I quote:

‘increase the allowable pension contribution from K15,000 per month to K60,000 per month or 15 per cent of one’s salary whichever is less”.

Madam Chairperson, if you are talking about a percentage of one’s salary and are comparing it to K60,000 and saying whichever is less is going to be tax exempt, we are not talking any amount above tax ration. Had that been the case, we would not be using the figure of K60,000. In this regard, K60,000 is 15 per cent of K400,000. It is as easy as that.

Madam Chairperson, therefore, we must not come and tell this House this means K60,000 above the K75,000 minimum threshold because that is not what the law says. The laws says 15 per cent of the salary whichever is less and if K60,000 is the comparative, then we are talking about a K400,000 or whichever is less. I would like the Minister to demonstrate how he is going to have any revenue loss if he is talking about 15 per cent of the salary. 15 per cent of the salary compared to 60,000, is very clear. We are not talking about anything above the threshold. It must be as plain as that. I do not have to be a statistics officer to know that. I hope that my colleagues understand that this law is simply intended to dupe the Zambian people. This is because no one will get any tax rebate on pensions, as the total amount is already within the total salaries threshold.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): I really do not want to disagree with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on this particular subject which is on the table. However, the argument before us, as I understand it, is that inflation, as of today, is at 12.5 per cent.

Secondly, the actual breadbasket for a family man or lady working as take home pay, if that family has six children as given by the Catholic Church and the Central Statistical Office is in fact about K1.2 million. All I am asking Hon. Magande to do, is give a little consideration to adjusting the threshold from K500,000 to near the figures given by a Non Governmental Organisation( NGO) and his Government so that we could reach a compromise . That is all I ask him to consider. To be against this Vote, is voting against the workers of this country.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Question that Clause 4 be amended put and the House voted.

Hon. Government Members called for a division.

Mr N. Banda entered the Chamber.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: There is a stranger in the House.

The Chairperson: Order! Can you allow the hon. Member to sit?

Right now, nobody knows, whether he has appealed or….

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Let us keep quiet.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: He lost the petition.

Interruption

The Chairperson: Order! Close the bars.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!
Ayes – (61)

Mr C. K. B. Banda
Ms E. M. Banda
Mr Beene
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chella
Major Chibamba
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chimumbwa
Mr Chisala
Dr Chishya
Ms Chitika
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chongo
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kambwili
Ms Kapata
Mr Kasongo
Dr Katema
Mr Katuka
Ms Limata
Mr Lubinda
Dr Machungwa
Mr Malama
Ms Masiye
Mr Matongo
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Msichili
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga
Mr Munaile
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mushili
Mrs Musokotwane
Ms Mwamba
Mr Mwansa
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr B. Y. Mwila
Mr D. Mwila
Dr Njobvu
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nsanda
Mr Nyirenda
Ms Phiri
Dr Scott
Mr Sejani
Mr Simama
Mr Sing’ombe
Mrs Sinyangwe
Mr Syakalima
Mr Zulu

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr Pande
Mrs Sinyangwe

Noes – (57)

Mr A. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr N. K. Banda
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo
Ms Cifire
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Imenda
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kapita
Mr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Mabenga
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mpombo
Mr Muchima
Mr Mukuma
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Musosha
Mr Muteteka
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Ms Njapau
Mr Nkhata
Reverend Nyirongo
Mr Pande
Mr D. B. Phiri
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Tembo
Ms Tembo

Tellers for the Noes:

Ms Cifire
Mr Mukanga

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 5, 6 and 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8 − (Insertion of new section 81C)

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, after due consideration and in view of another clause that has almost the same provisions, I beg to withdraw my amendment to Clause 8.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 11 − (Amendment of Charging Schedule)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 11 –

(i) on page 7, in line 4

by the deletion of the words “seventy-two thousand Kwacha” and the substitution therefor of the words “one hundred and forty-four thousand Kwacha”; and

(ii) on page 7, in lines 35 to 40 and on page 8, in lines 1 to 2 by the deletion of the proviso and the substitution therefor of the following new proviso:

Provided that a mining company holding a large scale mining licence issued under section twenty-five of the Mines and Minerals Act and carrying on the mining of base metals and is a party to a development agreement signed prior to 1st April, 2007, pursuant to section nine of the Mines and Minerals Act, shall after the commencement of this Act renegotiate with the Government the rate of tax to be paid by such company to the Government and any such rate which is agreed upon in the negotiations shall be the rate payable under the development agreement.

(iii) on page 9, in lines 13 to 21 by the deletion of paragraph (iv) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

(iv) Any mining company holding a large-scale mining licence issued under section twenty-five of the Mines and Minerals Act and carrying the mining of base metals and is a party to a development agreement signed prior to 1st April, 2007, pursuant to section nine of the Mines and Minerals Act shall, after the commencement of this Act renegotiate with the Government the rate of withholding tax to be paid by such company to the Government and any such rate which is agreed upon in the negotiation shall be the rate payable under the development agreement.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 11, on page 7, in line 4 by the deletion of the words “seventy-two” and the substitution therefor of the words “one hundred and forty-four”.

The Chairperson: Mr Lubinda, is that amendment different from the hon. Minister’s amendment? Have you seen the hon. Minister’s amendment?

Mr Lubinda: No, Madam Chairperson. I was looking in my folder and did not see the hon. Minister’s amendment.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: I do not have the hon. Minister’s amendment.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: It has to be in my folder.

Hon. Government Members: It is there!

Mr Lubinda: It is not in my folder.
The Chairperson: Basically, that is the same amendment as the hon. Minister’s.

Mr Lubinda: I do not have it.

Hon. Members: It is there!

Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 11:

(a) on page 7, in line 34 by the deletion of the colon after the words “per annum” and the substitution therefor of a full stop;

(b) from page 7, in lines 35 to 40, to page 8, in lines 1 to 2 by the deletion of the proviso;

(c) on page 9

(i) in line 5

by the deletion of the word “and” after the semi-colon;

(ii) in line 12

by the deletion of the semi-colon after the words “final tax” and the substitution therefor of a full stop; and

(iii) in lines 13 to 21

by the deletion of the proviso (iv)

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, I am surprised that Hon. Kakoma has moved this amendment because he is proposing the deletion of the proviso. We had meetings with the lawyers in this House and made an amendment to the proviso which has been circulated and the amendment has been moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. It has already been moved. I thought that we agreed. The understanding was that he was going to withdraw this particular amendment because we had introduced a compromised clause which all the lawyers have participated in drafting.

Hon. Opposition Members: Not all the lawyers!

Mr Kunda: Sorry, you were not there, but those who were present participated. We had discussions over this particular amendment.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, I thought it was just a point of procedure because I had circulated this amendment and up to this point this amendment which was circulated has not been officially withdrawn. Therefore, as of now, it still stands, until a decision is arrived at to withdraw it. That is why I mentioned that I circulated an amendment.

However, I understand from the hon. Minister of Justice that following his request last week, some lawyers from the Opposition sat down with him to redraft this clause. I understand that they agreed on the reading of this clause.

I wish to say that I am prepared to withdraw it, but there are still some sticky points in this amendment because of the wording. I understand that a lot of latitude has been given to the process of negotiating. We are saying, ‘the company shall negotiate with the Government.’ However, no period has been fixed for these negotiations. It can take five years. For example, we have seen that with regard to the Freedom of Information Bill, the Government has been consulting for five years. Therefore, if this is what it means by negotiating, it will be a very bad negotiation.
Secondly, there is no safeguard for cases where the negotiations flop. Yes, we can compel them to come and negotiate, but if the negotiations reach a deadlock, what next? These are the issues that we want to be taken care of under this amended clause.

The Chairperson: Order!

I would like to guide the House that the amendment by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has already passed. Can the Government, therefore, just take note of the issues that have been raised because the amendment by the hon. Minister has already gone through.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Just now before I called on you.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kakoma, you have already acknowledged to the House that you have withdrawn your amendment. Now do you want to make an  amendment on the amendment of the hon. Minister? The amendments of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning have already gone through. Do you want to make an amendment on the amendment of the hon. Minister? We shall just move on.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

We are still moving. We moved to a stage where we agreed. The first stage of the amendment by the hon. Minister was agreed to before I called on Hon. Lubinda who wanted to move an amendment on the same, but we moved on. That is the way we proceeded. This was on Clause 11. Let us proceed, hon. Members.
Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning moved an amendment to Clause 11, Hon. Lubinda had an amendment to Clause 11 which he withdrew and Hon. Kakoma was the last to move an amendment on the Floor. It has been recorded that he said he was ready to withdraw except there were sticky points in the amendment. So, he has withdrawn the amendment.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the amendment moved by the hon. Minister was the same as my amendment word for word and I am grateful that he moved it. However, it is different from the amendment proposed by Hon. Kakoma. Let me demonstrate how. My amendment is in Clause 11, on page 7, in line 4 whereas the amendment by Hon. Kakoma …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Lubinda, let me guide the House. When you withdrew, you withdrew your amendment. We are not going back to your amendment. We moved to the amendment by Hon. Kakoma and when he stood, for whatever reason, he said he was happy with the hon. Minister’s amendment and that he was withdrawing his. This has nothing to do with the amendment by Hon. Lubinda. You accepted to withdraw your amendment because it was the same as that of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, but Hon. Kakoma’s is different and he has his own words here.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, like the hon. Minister of Justice has said, last week in my conclusion at the level of Second Reading, I invited those who had to make an input into a wording which was going to be accepted by this House and we had a meeting the day before yesterday in my office here at Parliament with hon. Members on your left side and we agreed on this wording. Can we get it now…

Interruptions

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I moved an amendment and that amendment according to our understanding was received and accepted by this House. When you asked for any further amendments, you did not ask for debate because we had already finished and so you just asked for any further amendments. Hon. Lubinda stood up to comment on his amendment and he said that because of the amendment by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning which had already gone through, he was withdrawing his amendment. You asked for a further amendment and Hon. Kakoma stood up and said, ‘the House should take note that I also had amendments on this Clause’ and that was not to say that he wanted us to continue to debate his amendments.

The Chairperson: Order!

Can I try, once again, to guide the House on what has happened. Probably, hon. Members were still thinking of the division. Immediately the division was over, I started going through the different clauses and I came to Clause 11 and called upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and he moved an amendment in Clause 11 with the words as circulated. In saying that, it meant that his entire amendment which had different parts as circulated was moved and the House agreed to it. After that we moved to Hon. Lubinda who withdrew his amendment based on the amendment by the hon. Minister in Clause 11. Then we moved on to Hon. Kakoma who stood and moved his amendment and then the hon. Minister of Justice stood to clarify Hon. Kakoma’s amendment.

After the hon. Minister of Justice spoke, Hon. Kakoma stood again and said that he was not aware of what had happened and that he was ready to withdraw that amendment. He also said the hon. Minister’s amendment had some sticky points. He did not say he was not withdrawing his amendment, he simply said the hon. Minister’s amendment still had some sticky points. That was the terminology he used. So, this is why I have said we should move on.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 11, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Clause12 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.{mospagebreak}

THE MINES AND MINERALS (Amendment) BILL, 2007

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of Section 2)

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2,

(a) on page 3, in line 14

by the deletion of the word ‘definition’ and the substitution therefor of the word ‘definitions’;

(b) on page 4, after line 2

by the insertion of the following definitions:

‘operating margin’ means the value of total minerals extracted less the operating cost; and

‘operating ratio’ means the ration of the operating margin to operating cost as a percentage.

Ms Mumbi: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: Who called for order?

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, as I said last week, in debating this particular Bill, we have a lot of very knowledgeable people on mining in this House. However, I pleaded that we do not introduce terms in an Act which become confusing to the Executive and the officers who are suppose to implement it. Hon. Mwenya’s intention, in this amendment, is to provide for new definitions of ‘operating margin’ and ‘operating ratio’. However, when you go through the whole Bill, these two terms which he intends to introduce in the definitions do not appear anywhere. By having them in the definition, where are we going to use them because they are not in the body of the Act? We know that they are very well known mining terminologies, but why are we putting them in the definition since, in fact, they do not appear anywhere in the Act. We would like to plead that these technical terms, which Hon. Mwenya and other mining experts clearly understand, are not included in the definition unless they are going to be used somewhere in the Act.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, my sincere appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is that he should be patient and not allow me to dilute my debate because I have proposed amendments to Clause 17 which is cardinal. Some of the definitions mentioned here will appear in that Clause. I seek that …

Ms Mumbi: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Mumbi: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. I would like clarification from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs or his Deputy Minister if he is not here or the Government at large on what guides the foreign diplomats accredited to our country. This is because as much as we speak of cholera outbreaks in our compounds, …

The Chairperson: Do not debate. What is your point of order?

Ms Mumbi: My point of order is that I found the Deputy Ambassador of the Chinese Embassy dumping garbage in Kalingalinga and I challenge everybody …

The Chairperson: Can you, please, ask the question.

Ms Mumbi: Yes, Madam.

I would like clarification on whether these people are allowed to dump garbage anyhow in the middle of Kalingalinga, and yet we speak of cholera. Is the Government in order to allow diplomats to dump garbage in the middle of Kalingalinga Compound? This has been documented by one of our broadcasting media, Muvi TV, and it will be shown on the 1900 hours news. I am asking for a serious ruling from you, Madam Chairperson.

The Chairperson: The hon. Member has raised a point of order on what she terms a diplomat she saw dumping garbage in Kalingalinga. The hon. Member and the whole House have been clearly guided on what constitutes a point of order. This is not even an urgent matter and even questions of an urgent nature are supposed to come through Questions. Points of order are supposed to be moved on the procedure of the House or what we are debating on the Floor of the House. The hon. Member does not need to come to this House to raise that concern. I am sure there are channels that she could use, including her council, to deal with that.

Thank you.

Can the hon. Member on the Floor continue.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I was responding to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s statement. The amendment that I am proposing before this House, in Clause 2, under definitions is very important because of the proposed amendment that I will move on Clause 17. Therefore, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to patiently wait until we debate Clause 17 so that if we fail to succeed on Clause 17, then this can follow.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: That would be unprocedural. Therefore, I will put the question.

Question that Clause 2 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 10 ― (Insertion of New Part 3(a))

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 10, on page 6, as follows:

(i) in line 25, by the insertion immediately after the words ‘management plan’ of the words ‘approved by the Environmental Council of Zambia in accordance with section ninety-six of the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act.’; and

(ii) in lines 32 to 34, by the deletion of sub-clause (3) and the substitution therefor of the following new sub-clause:
‘(3) The applicant shall commission and produce to the Minister an environmental impact study on the proposed mineral processing operations approved by the Environmental Council of Zambia.’

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, we had a very close look at the amendment proposed in Clause 10 and the intention was to clarify the provisions which we had earlier proposed. Therefore, we accept that this should go through. We had a discussion on it.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 17 – (Repeal and Replacement of Section 66)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 17, on page 12, in lines 1 to 2 by the deletion of the proviso, and the substitution therefor of the following new proviso:

‘Provided that a company which is party to a development agreement signed prior to 1st April, 2007, shall after the commencement of this Act renegotiate with the Government the rate of mineral royalty to be paid by such company to the Government and any such rate which is agreed upon in the negotiations shall be the rate payable under the development agreement.’

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I propose …

The Chairperson: Order! Are you moving an amendment or debating the hon. Minister’s amendment?

Mr Mwenya: I am moving an amendment.

The Chairperson: No. Let us deal with hon. Minister’s amendment first.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Chairperson, I stand to support the amendment that has been moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

You will recall, Madam Chairperson, last week we were requested to look at the earlier amendment that was moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I would like to inform the House that we met as lawyers and consulted each other on the best way to resolve this intricate issue that has been endowing the nation. We hope and believe that the amendment we have come up with is the best solution to the crisis we have found ourselves in.

I thank you, Madam.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move a further amendment in Clause 17, on page11, as follows:
(i) in lines 32 and 33, by the deletion of paragraph (a) and the substitution therefor of the following new paragraph:

‘(a)  a minimum of 3 per centum to be applied based on the operating ratio of the operation of a mine which shall increase progressively up to a maximum of 6% if the operating ratio exceeds 30%’;
(ii) in line 38, by the deletion of the semi-colon and the substitution therefor of a full stop;

(iii) in line 39, by the deletion of the following: ‘as the case may be’; and

(b) on page 12, in lines 1 to 5, by the deletion of the proviso.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I expected my good friend, Hon. Mwenya, to reciprocate my good intentions. I want to remind him that his first amendment to define the words was rejected. If in this particular paragraph, he put those words, they will not appear as defined in the Act. Nobody will understand them. It should have been consequential that since the words were not defined in the Act, we cannot use them because no one will understand them. I beg him to withdraw this amendment.

Thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I am aware that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning managed to have the definitions rejected from the start, but I feel it is important that we are heard so that the nation knows how committed we are to trying to liberate ourselves from the bondage in which we are.

Madam Chairperson, for the past twelve years since the mines were privatised, our people have not benefited much. If you visit mine townships, …

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Mwenya, you are now opening up the debate. Can you dwell on your amendment.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I am not withdrawing the amendment.
Thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, I think the amendment that has been proposed needs to be supported.

This Government has decided to ambush the Opposition by rejecting the definitions that were proposed. If you look at the amendment which is being proposed, it is giving the Government more funds by offering a sliding factor than the fixed one. The Government will be getting more from this proposal. If the mines do not produce more, they will only get 3 per cent of the mineral royalty. If the mines produce more, they will even get up to 6 per cent. I do not see why they should refuse because what we want is to give money to the people who need it. We cannot have a situation where somebody from some country comes into this country poor and returns to his home country rich leaving the indigenous Zambians who have been working very hard poor. I support this amendment and it needs to be supported by everyone.

Thank you very much, Madam.

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, having rejected the first part of the amendment in which the hon. Member wanted to define terms, this particular amendment remains very vague and it will be very difficult to interpret and implement.

What is in the Act, at the moment, is very certain compared to this amendment which he wishes to introduce. You do not draft legislation by introducing things which you will only understand yourself. We should look at the entire Act and the policy. What are you trying to achieve? This amendment is vague and for this reason we, on this side of the House, will not vote for it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to put it on record that ambushing is not part of parliamentary procedure. I am using that term because obviously my good friend and brother, Hon. Mwenya, was ambushed. He proposed amendments to the definitions because he did not want to ambush anyone. He did that because he knew that he was coming up with…

The Chairperson: Order! Do not debate. That point has passed.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: That has been presented as an argument against this amendment.

The Chairperson: Order!

We have gone through that, therefore, can you defend the proposed amendment.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: In defending the amendment proposed by Hon. Mwenya, I would like to appeal to my colleagues to discount the argument presented concerning the lack of definitions because those can be introduced even at this stage or even as regulations or in a Statutory Instrument (SI). What is important is to consider the content and intention of the amendment being proposed by Hon. Mwenya.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Mwenya has come up with this amendment so that we do not leave anything to do with Government resources to the will and whims of individuals. The proposed amendment by the hon. Minister makes reference to the minister having power to negotiate on his own. We cannot have a tax system that is based on negotiations by individuals. This is what has created a crisis even in the mineral royalty tax we are talking about. If you are interested, I am willing to go through the history of mineral royalty tax that we are losing in the mines to demonstrate the reason why it is expedient for this House, on behalf of the Zambian people, to ensure that it makes in the law regulations that are not subject to negotiation, but are as clear as perceived. This is why Hon. Mwenya has moved the amendment in the way that he has.

The issue of referring to those terminologies is a technicality which can be handled here, now or even later. Therefore, I would like to hear arguments against the substance of the amendment.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga called for a division.

Question that Clause 17 be further amended put and the House voted.

Ayes – (37)

Ms Banda E. M
Mr Bwalya
Mr Chanda
Mr Chella
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chimumbwa
Mr Chisala
Dr Chishya
Ms Chitika
Mr Chitonge
Mr Chongo
Mr Chota
Mr Kambwili
Ms Kapata
Mr Kasongo
Dr Katema
Mr Lubinda
Dr Machungwa
Ms Masiye
Mr Msichili
Mr Mtonga
Mr Mukanga
Mr. Mulenga C.
Mr Mulenga L. P. J
Ms Mumbi
Mr Mushili
Ms Mwamba
Mr. Mwansa 
Mr Mwenya
Mr D. Mwila
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nsanda
Mr Nyirenda
Ms. Phiri 
Dr Scott
Mr Simama
Mrs Sinyangwe

Tellers for Ayes:
Ms Mwamba 
Mr Daka

Noes - (62)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr A. Banda 
Mr C. K. B. Banda 
Mr I. Banda 
Mr N. K. Banda 
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chibombamilimo
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo 
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kapita
Mr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Mabenga
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mpombo
Mr Muchima
Mr Mukuma
Ms Mulasikwanda
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Musosha
Mr Muteteka
Mr M. B. Mwale 
Mr V. Mwale 
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Ms Njapau
Mr Nkhata
Reverend Nyirongo 
Mr Pande
Mr. Phiri 
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shakafuswa
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha 
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Silavwe
Ms Siliya
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Tembo 
Ms Tembo.

Tellers for Noes:

Dr Machungwa
Reverend Nyirongo
   
Abstention – (17)

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 17, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 19 – (Repeal and replacement of section 75)

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 19, on page13, in line 6 by the insertion immediately after the words ‘and the Minister may’ of the words ‘in consultation with the Minister responsible for environment’.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Mr Mwenya: Thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Going by the amendment circulated by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I wish to withdraw my amendment.
Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 19, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34 and 35 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

_______{mospagebreak}

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the house as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2007

The Mines and Minerals (Amendment) Bill, 2007

Report Stages on Wednesday, 3rd April, 2007

THIRD READING

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2007

________

RULING BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES

RULING BY THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES OF THE WHOLE HOUSE ON A POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY THE HON. MINISTER IN THE MINISTRY OF MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT, MR M. B. MWALE, MP, ON THE DEBATE BY THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR LUSAKA CENTRAL PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, DR GUY SCOTT, MP, ON THURSDAY, 8TH MARCH, 2007.

Hon Members of the House will recall that on Tuesday, 13th March, 2007, when the House was in Committee of Supply considering Head 29, Ministry of Local Government and Housing, and while the Hon Member for Luapula Parliamentary Constituency, Dr P. D. Machungwa, MP, was speaking, the Hon Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Mr M. B. Mwale, MP, raised the following point of order, and I quote:

‘Madam Chairperson, I am compelled to raise this serious point of order as it hinges on the credibility of this Government.

Madam, the then Acting Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in contributing to the support of Heads 14, in his policy statement, informed this House and correctly so, as follows, and I quote:

‘Due to the growing interest in Uranium Mining, the Government started developing the Uranium Mining Regulations in 2006. Although Zambia has a well developed mining industry, with established mining laws and corresponding regulations, there is no history of uranium mining.’

Madam, the Hon. Member for Lusaka Central, Dr Scott, informed this House in debating and in support of Head 17, with glee, while looking at the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development that, and I quote:

“I was going to tell the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, through you, that Zambia’s first major impact on the international scene was in 1945 when Northern Rhodesia, as we were then, supplied uranium for the first atomic bomb to be dropped in anger.”

Madam Chairperson, I bring your attention to an article which appeared in the Times of Zambia of Friday, 9th March, 2007, entitled ‘Congolese held in missing uranium’, and I quote:

‘The Democratic Republic of Congo’s top atomic energy official is being held over allegations of uranium smuggling.

A man in Congo’s Southern Province of Katanga supplied the uranium that was used in the atomic bombs that were dropped by the Americans on the Japanese towns of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. To thank and reward Congo, the Americans funded the creation of Congo’s Nuclear Centre in 1958.’

Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Lusaka Central, who was born the year before that atomic was dropped in Japan, in order to cast doubt on the credibility of the hon. Minister’s statement and misinform this House and the country at large that Zambia was the supplier of that uranium? I need your serious ruling, Madam Chairperson.’

In my immediate remarks, I said, and I quote:

‘The Hon Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has raised a point of order on the debate made by the Hon Member for Lusaka Central, Dr Scott, on the usage and supply of uranium. This is, indeed, a very serious point of order. The Chair will for now defer the ruling to a later date.’

Hon Members, according to the verbatim record of the proceeding of the Committee of Supply for Thursday, 8th March, 2007, on this matter and on which I would like to focus my ruling, Hon Ng’andu P. Magande, MP, who was then acting Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, is reported to have said, which the hon. Minister stated in part, and I quote:

‘In addition to the growing interest in uranium mining, the Government started developing the uranium mining regulations in 2006. Although Zambia has a well developed mining industry with established mining laws and corresponding regulations, there is no history of uranium mining in the country.’

Similarly, Dr Guy Scott, MP, was reported to have said, in part, and I quote:

‘Mr Chairman, I was going to tell the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, through you, that Zambia’s first major impact on the international scene was in 1945 when Northern Rhodesia, as we were then, supplied uranium for the first atomic bomb to be dropped in anger. As the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development said, there was no history of uranium mining. Perhaps, it came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, but there is a small fact anyway.’

Hon Members, I have now studied the point of order raised by the hon. Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, Mr M. B. Mwale, MP, and the debates on the subject, and the following is my ruling:

It is clear from Dr Guy Scott’s contribution that the hon. Member misled the House on this matter by stating that in 1945, Northern Rhodesia supplied uranium for the first atomic bomb to be dropped in anger. The Hon Member himself expressed doubt on the correctness of his statement when, according to his own statement, he stated that, and I quote:

‘There was no history of uranium mining in Zambia and that uranium for the first atomic bomb may have come from the Democratic Republic of Congo.’

This is exactly what the then acting Minister of Mines and Minerals Development meant when he stated that, and I quote:

‘There was no history of uranium mining in Zambia.’

Hon Members, once more, the House may wish to know that while hon. Members enjoy the privilege of freedom of speech in the House, this freedom is circumscribed by the rules which guard against making unwarranted or untrue or incorrect statements in the House. There is a duty placed on every hon. Member to thoroughly investigate information before presenting it to the House and through this House to the nation.

Erskine May, an eminent authority on Parliamentary Practice, has this to say in his book Parliamentary Practice, twenty-first edition, on page 119, and I quote:

‘The House may treat the making of a deliberately misleading statement as a contempt. In 1963, the House resolved that in making a personal statement which contained words he later admitted not to be true, a former Member had been guilty of a grave contempt.’

Further, hon. Members may wish to note that Section 28 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, gives power to the Assembly to reprimand or suspend a Member who is guilty of contempt of the House. Sub-Section (1) of Section 28 of the Act provides that, and I quote:

‘Where any Member commits any contempt of the Assembly, whether specified in Section 19 or otherwise, the Assembly may, by resolution, either direct the Speaker to reprimand such member or suspend him from the service of the Assembly for such period as it may determine:
Provided that such period shall not extend beyond the last day of the meeting next following that in which the resolution is passed, or of the session in which the resolution is passed, whichever shall first occur.’

Hon Members, it is clear from the foregoing authorities that under Parliamentary procedure and practice, giving a misleading statement amounts to grave contempt of the House, an offence punishable by the Assembly. Dr Guy Scott, MP, gave a misleading statement when he stated that Zambia’s first major impact on the international scene was in 1945 when Northern Rhodesia supplied uranium for the first atomic bomb to be dropped in anger.

Dr Scott, MP, was not factual when he debated on the matter under review. However, the House will not punish the Member in that in his own words, Dr Scott, MP, doubted the correctness of his statement when he said, and I quote:

‘…. As the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development said, there was no history of uranium mining. Perhaps, it came from the Democratic Republic of Congo, but there is a small fact anyway.’

From the above statement, Dr Scott, MP, did not give a factual position and was quick to express uncertainty of his own statement. For this reason, I have decided to give Dr Scott, MP, the benefit of the doubt.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Had he put it categorically that the uranium came from Northern Rhodesia and ended there, the House would not have excused him, but would have punished him. This notwithstanding, I strongly advise Dr Scott, MP, to desist from making casual statements, especially on serious issues such as the one under discussion which border on the security of the nation.

Hon Members, I take this opportunity to guide the House, once again, that hon. Members should always be factual in their debates or else they risk being punished by the House. Under Parliamentary procedure and practice, an hon. Member who carelessly or deliberately gives a misleading statement on the Floor of the House, or in the proceedings of its Committees included, is in breach of the freedom of speech and is guilty of a grave contempt of the House, an offence punishable by the House.

I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of this August House to take this as a timely warning.

Thank you.{mospagebreak}

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 2007 TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2007.

VOTE 33 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – K73,325,049,084).

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Ms Siliya): Madam Chairperson, when the House adjourned, yesterday, I was trying to stress the point that the Government will continue to encourage, promote and facilitate investment in the private sector in Zambia. This is why we have seen the need to create the Zambia Development Agency, which is the leading agency in trying to attract investment in Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I also want to state very clearly that the Government’s effort to attract investment is not limited to foreign investors at all. We are also targeting local investors. There seems to be a misconception that when the Government talks about investment in the private sector, they are just thinking about foreign investors. We want to encourage foreign investment but not at the expense of local investment at all.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: The incentives in the Zambia Development Agency do not discriminate against local investors. 
Mr Lubinda: Hammer!

Ms Siliya: Madam Chairperson, however, we do realise that there are sometimes structural and financial …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, there is too much talking which is disturbing the debate and the Chair is unable to pick everything the hon. Member on the Floor is saying. Can we consult very quietly if we have to.

The hon. Member may continue.

Ms Siliya: Madam Chairperson, I was emphasising that the Government realises, particularly through the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, that sometimes there are some structural and financial barriers that limit the participation of local investors, particularly the citizens of Zambia, in the private sector. If you recall, yesterday, I did stress that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry is leading a very ambitious programme to review Government processes so that we can become client oriented and continue to provide an abling environment for the private sector to flourish.

Madam Chairperson, we also realise that in reviewing Government processes, we cannot do this by ourselves. Therefore, we are working with the private sector through public private partnership on the Private Sector Development Reform Programme so that we come up with the best recommendations that the private sector can respond to positively. It is our policy and intention, as a Government, to continue to support innovative and creative ideas and to nature an entrepreneur spirit and culture so that we can continue to take advantage of the opportunities that are prevailing in this country right now. You will recall that, yesterday, I said something good must be happening here because everybody else outside Zambia seems to see it and I am sure we can see it too.

Mr Lubinda: Talk about world trade now!

Ms Siliya: Madam Chairperson, during the debate on the Ministry of Lands, a lot of people talked about the potential that land has in unlocking development in rural areas. I want to inform the House that under the Private Sector Development Reform Programme my hon. Minister alluded to in the policy statement, there are a number of windows and land reform is one of them. We do believe that rural development can come about if we make it possible for people to use title deeds as collateral to borrow money from banks and invest it as part of our support to small and medium enterprises.

Madam, part of these reforms include something that many people do not think about and that is the potential for livestock in this country. The livestock industry has the potential to contribute significantly to the GDP, but because of the prevalent livestock diseases and lack of a private sector organisation in this industry, we have not been able to take advantage of this opportunity. My ministry is looking at how best we can make this sector contribute to the economy.

Madam Chairperson, to wind up, I would like to make reference to a statement made by Hon. Dr Scott that my ministry has abrogated its responsibility to many statutory bodies. I want to emphasise that we are doing this with the intention of meeting the requirements of the target sectors in the private sector. For example, we did inform you yesterday that the Patents and Company Registration Office (PACRO has done so well as a statutory body of the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. The cycle for registering a company has now moved from seventy-two days to less than fourteen days.

Madam Chairperson, this has also been extended to other statutory bodies such as the Zambia Weights and Measurers and the Zambia Bureau of Standards. Therefore, I would like to urge hon. Members of Parliament to, please, support our budget. We should all work together and not be cynical and have what Americans call a ‘bling bling’ culture. Each one of us should believe that it is possible to create wealth so that we can share it because nobody wants to share poverty.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamir (Chitambo): Madam Chairperson, while I support the budget fully, there are a few concerns which the hon. Minister should think about, like protecting our industries jealously. This will help us protect the jobs. We should adhere to the saying ‘Build Zambia, buy Zambian products’.

Madam, there is a need to identify food processing industries, especially in rural areas. An example is the Mwinilunga pineapples that are far much better than the imported ones. It is important to think about banning the importation of some fruits and vegetables. Surely, we cannot import bananas when we produce our own. There is need to protect our industry and probably even bring in processing plants so that we can be proud of our country.

The mistake was made in the Second Republic when there was a rush to move away from whatever Dr Kaunda did. I say this in view of the vision that he had that every provincial town centre had an industry. For example, Luapula Province had Mansa Batteries, Eastern Province had Luangwa Bicycles and Kabwe had the Mulungushi Textiles. We should have a vision of having more industries in provincial headquarters as well as look at the districts like Chitambo Constituency where there are a lot of mangoes. We should think about bringing industries which can help us produce mango juice instead of importing it.

Madam Chairperson, there is also need to advertise a lot, in and outside the country, to attract genuine investors and not jokers. That way, we can have investors that will bring us industries and not traders. We want the trading sector to be given to the Zambians. There are plenty of people in our country that can be engaged in trading instead of bringing traders from outside. We are suffering the consequences of doing that. There is need to bring in genuine industries and not trading. I emphasise on that …

Hon. Members of Parliament: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamir: I think the hon. Minister and the Government are capable of doing this and are working hard. It is in view of this that I ask the hon. Minister to look into my points although very briefly. I am sure, however, that he has got my point.

I thank you, Madam.

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Konga): Madam Chairperson, I would like to sincerely thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on the Vote for my ministry. I would also like to thank the hon. Members that did not debate, but have contributed positively, by interacting with me and my hon. Minister and even among ourselves, concerning the budget for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

Madam, allow me to respond to some of the issues that have been raised by the hon. Members. The first and cardinal issue concerns the sale of Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO) which raised a lot of interest in the House yesterday. I would like to assure hon. Members that the Government has not given away ZANACO for free. According to the agreement of sale between the Government and Rabobank on the partial privatisation of ZANACO, there will be a full disclosure of all material information relating to the transaction upon completion of sale. This will be concluded next week on 3rd April, 2007.

All information will then be released to hon. Members of the House and the public through the media. I would like to pre-empt the terms of the transaction before that date. As at 3rd April, 2007, the Government will expect the transfer of ZANACO to the new management to be fully concluded. I would like to reaffirm what I mentioned in my initial statement that ZANACO will have no more than three expatriate members of staff.

There was fear of the sale not being transparent. I would like to assure the House that the partial privatisation of ZANACO was done in a transparent manner after which Rabobank was selected as the preferred bidder. An open international co-operative bid was followed in the award ensuring transparency in the whole process.

As regards the breach by the Government of the Financial Services Act, I would like to assure the House that the award of 49 per cent shares to Rabobank is an initial move to facilitate the positioning of the bank as a private sector bank. To do this, waivers were given by the central bank, the Bank of Zambia, to enable Rabobank maintain 49 per cent of the shares in the interim. This is the case which obtains even with other commercial banks like Citi Bank and Standard Chartered Bank. Waivers have been contained so that these banks are owned 100 per cent by one shareholder. Therefore, waivers were also obtained by the Government from the central bank so that Rabobank could own 49 per cent of the shares in the interim. Consequently, the Financial Services Act was never breached at all.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to assure this House that once the sale of ZANACO is concluded on 3rd April, 2007, I shall come back to this House and issue a ministerial statement.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member for Sinazongwe raised the issue of under funding to the Zambia Bureau of Standards which was allocated K200 million only. This is actually the Government’s position because the Government has realised that institutions like the Zambia Bureau of Standards are viable and can be self-sustaining. To this effect, the Government is slowly weaning such institutions. That is why we have only allocated only K200 million to it this year.

Notwithstanding this, the Zambia Bureau of Standards is one institution that is going to benefit from the US $3 million worth of funding that has been provided by the European Union under the guise EBF over the next three years. This funding will complement the money that the institution is going to raise on its own, including the funding from the Government for them to improve their standards so that they can provide better standards to other supporting institutions. This money will go towards refurbishing the laboratories, construction of new buildings as well as improving the general operations of the institution.

Madam Chairperson, concern was also raised that there was under funding to the Buy Zambia Campaign. I would like to confirm that that is correct. Although the Government would like to put more resources in the Buy Zambia Campaign, as at now, the resource envelope is limited but we hope that we can get more resources in the next budget.

Madam Chairperson, however, the on-going works of the Buy Zambia Campaign will also benefit from some of the EBF resources to complement the resources which have been provided for in this years’ budget. This will enable us create more awareness among the Zambian public so that they support the Zambian industry by buying Zambian products because that will go towards supporting employment if we buy Zambian products.

Madam Chairperson, concern was also raised that there is no protection of products manufactured locally. To this effect, my ministry, through the Department of Domestic Trade, will institute safeguard measures to provide protection to the domestic industry against actual injury or threat of injury caused by an influx of imports. Safeguard measures are not going to address the problem of dumping and subsidies because these are addressed through anti-dumping and countervailing duties that are administered by the Zambia Revenue Authority.
Madam Chairperson, there were also issues raised regarding multi-facility economic zones. I would like to assure hon. Members of the House that the Government’s intentions with regard to the provision of land for the multi-facility economic zones are noble. These zones are not going to be provided by the Government, no! They will be provided and managed by the private sector. The Zambian private sector is welcome. The initiators might be foreign, but, at the end of the day, ...

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was talking about the multi-facility economic zones.

The Government’s intention is very noble. The zones are going to create the jobs which this country is crying for. The zones will also create value addition to products. As opposed to exporting raw materials, the country will be exporting finished products. Therefore, we are going to add value to our products and generate better income for them.

Therefore, I would like to urge hon. Members of this House to consider the Vote for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry favourably so that we can achieve the objectives that have been set for this year.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 33/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33/02 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – Planning and Information Department – K18,219,128,839).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3, Activity 01 ― Zambia Privatisation Agency – Nil. Last year, we had a budget of K2.8 billion and you are aware that the issue of privatising is still going on. I want to find out from the hon. Minister why they have not budgeted for any amount this year.

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, the amount has been reduced in this year’s budget because there are very few institutions that need to be privatised. Money has been provided for under ZDA.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 33/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33/06 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – Foreign Trade Department – K3,576,860,604).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9, Activities 01 – SADC Trade Negotiating Forums – K100,000,000, 02 – SADC Trade Ministers’ Meetings K380,115,076, 03 – COMESA Policy Organs Meeting – K80,000,000, 04 – COMESA trade and Customs Committee Meetings – K54,000,000, 05 – SADC Customs Union Task Force – K80,000,000, 06 – Impact Assessment of Proposed levels of CET and BEC – K20,000,000 and 07 – COMESA Heads of State Summit – K82,000,000. This year, you have provided K796,115,076 from the K365 million which is on Programme 19. Programmes 18 and 19 are combined. I wonder why there is an increase.

Mr Konga: Which programme are you talking about?

Mr Mukanga: I am talking about Programme 9 – Regional Trade which has activities on SADC and COMESA. Last year, the same activities appeared under Programmes 18 and 19 on page 330 and the total was about K365 million. I wonder why you have increased it to K796 million.

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, the funding has increased this year because if you recall in my policy statement yesterday, I mentioned that there would be many other meetings, including the SADC Heads of State Summit which Zambia will be hosting this year. There is also the World Trade Organisation (WTO) Ministerial Conference that has been provided for. This has caused the increase.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 33/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 76/01 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – K59,953,379,203).

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to give a policy statement for my ministry.

In this statement, I am going to talk about the mission statement, the programmes and activities for which resource allocations are linked to. The mission statement for my ministry is as follows:

‘To effectively promote, co-ordinate and monitor child, youth and sports development in order to contribute to sustainable socio-economic development for the benefit of the people of Zambia.’

Madam, in the year 2006, the ministry launched its revised policies on children and the youths. It was necessary to revise the polices in order to incorporate emerging issues such as the orphans, vulnerable children, child trafficking, issues to deal with disabilities, HIV/AIDS and so on because these were not catered for in the 1994 policies. These policies and plans have now been consolidated in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). For the first time since independence, a chapter for the children and youths has been included in the development plan.

To achieve all these programmes, the ministry has four departments.The main function of the Department of Human Resource and Administration is to effectively co-ordinate all the administration, human resource development and to provide management and logistical support services for the ministry. In 2007, the department had a major responsibility to conclude the selection and placement of officers in the new structure of the restructured Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. This exercise had commenced in 2005 and it resulted in the creation of 123 new positions, abolition of 200 positions and the retention of 136 positions.

The placement of officers in positions has created pressure on the department in terms of provision of office materials, office furniture, communication facilities, orientation and training of new officers and provision of other logistical and support services for the ministry to function efficiently. Hence, the provision of K2 billion under office administration meant to cover the above.

Madam Chairperson, the Department of Sports Development is responsible for the co-ordination, monitoring and implementation of sports policies and programmes.

Sport plays a very important role in the sense that it unifies the nation cutting across all social strata. To achieve this goal, Madam Chairperson, the Department of Sport is going to do the following. We are going to revive sports for all programmes in order to encourage mass participation in sport. We are also going to strengthen coordination between my ministry and the Zambia Schools Sports Association with the Ministry of Education with a view to strengthening sport. We are also going to establish provincial and district sports advisory committees.

Madam Chairperson, we shall also continue to implement the focus on youth programmes in sports, thereby targeting the rural youths. On infrastructure development, the ministry has provided for the rehabilitation of the Maramba Stadium in Livingstone and also the rehabilitation of the Independence Stadium with a view to bringing them to international standards. In addition, the country is already aware that the Chinese Government has offered to construct an ultra modern stadium in Ndola and very soon we are expecting experts to commence the works.

Madam Chairperson, in order for the Government to implement its sports programmes effectively, the National Sports Council of Zambia is going to continue to play its significant role of regulating the activities of sports associations and advising the Government accordingly. This is in line with its mandate accorded to it by Parliament through Act No. 15 of 1977. We are going to have the same Act amended so that it conforms to the current developments.

Further my ministry will continue supporting all sports disciplines. I can only request associations to be proactive in engaging the private sector to support them than to solely depend on Government since they are not Government departments.

Madam Chairperson, I now come to the Department of Youth Development. The Department of Youth Development is responsible for the coordination, monitoring and implementation of youth development programmes. The core function of the department is to provide opportunities for youth empowerment. This is done through various activities including skills training, youth expositions and exchange and youth resettlement and the provision of micro-credit. The growing number of youth and children has sported problems related to this age group such as inadequate education opportunities, unemployment and the increase in child defilement cases, juvenile delinquency, drug abuse, prostitution, child labour, streetism and so on. In addition, the number of orphans has increased due to HIV/AIDS.

I am glad to inform this august House that the Youth Policy that we launched in 2006 has put in place measures to address these problems and we are going to operationalise the same through a national plan of action.

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the Youth Empowerment Fund. In the year 2006, my ministry disbursed K6 billion meant for constituency youth development meaning that each constituency received a sum of K40 million. This was meant to be a grant given to the young people in those constituencies. There was also a provision of K29 billion which was not disbursed because the modalities for disbursement were not yet finalised.

Madam Chairperson, this Youth Empowerment Fund amounting to K29 billion was meant to be a loan revolving fund unlike the Constituency Youth Development Fund which is a grant. I am happy to announce that, in this year’s budget, we have a provision of K30 billion. I want to clarify that the K29 billion of last year is not a carryover to this year.

Madam Chairperson, in this year’s budget, we have a provision of K30 billion which is going to address some of the challenges faced by young entrepreneurs. The funds will provide seed money for youth projects in all sectors of the economy. The funds will provide finance, guarantees, capital and other forms of support for young people to go into business unlike the Constituency Youth Development Fund.

Madam Chairperson, this fund is not going to be thinly distributed as the case was for the Constituency Youth Development Fund. We want tangible projects, for instance, there was a debate by Hon. Hamir regarding some proposals he was making for the establishment of a pineapple factory in Mwinilunga. This is an opportunity for the youths to take advantage of this fund because my ministry is only going to consider big but viable projects to be proposed by the youths. This is because we do not want this money not to have any impact on the youths. The youths must appreciate that the Government has given them this seed money and, hence, they should take advantage and come up with meaningful proposals.

My ministry has set up a programme management unit within which the funds are going to be managed under the close supervision of the Permanent Secretary. The operation manual and guidelines for the disbursement of the funds have already been developed and shall be made public soon since we need the Ministry of Justice to just make sure that all the nitty gritties of the same guidelines are properly done so that we secure the funds.

Madam Chairperson, the people that are going to access these funds, at one stage, are going to graduate from being youths into adults the way I did about four years ago. I, therefore, wish to urge all hon. Members to inform the youths to get organised and prepare bankable proposals for possible funding. I have to stress, here, that only viable projects, big, for that matter, are going to be funded because we want people to appreciate what this Government is going to do.

Madam Chairperson, this will be a revolving fund and those who will graduate from being children into youths will continue using it.

Let me now talk about the youth skills training. My ministry runs sixteen youths training centres and in this year’s budget, there is an allocation to rehabilitate two youth skills training centres and construct two new ones in Chama and Samfya districts. This is to assist the youths who have had no formal education or inadequate education acquire survival skills.

Madam Chairperson, let me marry this with the current programme of giving skills to the youth. Under the Department of Child Development, my ministry has targeted to give the age group between 15 and 25 years, those living on the streets and homeless survival skills. For 2007, we have earmarked to train 200 girls at Kitwe ZNS Camp and 400 boys at the Chiwoko Zambia National Services Camp (ZNS). Unfortunately, it has been found that very few girls above the age of 15 are on the street. This is because most of them, in most cases, have engaged in prostitution and, hence, are renting some houses and it was difficult to pick them from the streets. However, ninety-eight girls who are at Kitwe ZNS camp and sixteen out of a total of 116 that were taken to the camp have gone back to their homes because some of them were married. This is the more reason I would like to disagree with people who are contemplating that even married girls should be considered for this scheme. This scheme is purely for those people who are homeless. The people with homes even if they are married, have other youth skills training centres for which they may be considered for training. As a result, under the Department of Child Affairs, there is an allocation of K3 billion to cater for this programme and also for exit strategy. In 2005, about 204 youth completed various courses and were attached to the sixteen youth training centres with a view that we develop the exit strategy.

It is unfortunate, Madam Chairperson, that about a week ago, the community of Lufwanyama chased away the boys. Yes, in some instances, the youth have been unruly, but, in most cases, the cases against these boys have been magnified in the sense that they are quite enterprising and able to raise funds for themselves. Hence, when they go to have their social life, surrounding communities are not able to compete favourably with the locals who may not have the necessary funds. In most cases, problems have arisen out of competition for the young girls out there because of the funds they acquire from the chickens that they are able to keep and sell and so forth. We have requested various communities that these people despite acquiring the necessary skills, need psycho-social counselling. Hence, we are appealing to the members of the public that wherever we take them, as they are in transit to be taken into the communities, there is need to identify the deficiencies so that we are able to advise the trainers so that some of those deficiencies are addressed as we continue training more of the youth that we are taking to these camps.

Again, the Department of Child Affairs is going to continue with sensitisation of the communities. We are also going to ensure that we operationalise the Child Policy that was revised in 2006, by also establishing the Zambia Council for the Child. This is going to ensure that we work closely with all the line ministries and stakeholders to deal with the issues of street children. I, therefore, call upon all stakeholders to support the Government because this should not be a problem of the Government alone. The Government has come in to deal with the issue of street children as a last resort. So, all of us are affected by the problem, hence, we must participate and contribute to provide solutions just to assist the situation.

In Conclusion, Madam Chairperson, we are in a hurry to ensure that we fulfil our dreams of implementing the sports policy as the Zambians expect. We are in a hurry also to implement the National Youth and Child policies. This can only be achieved, if the provisions contained in this year’s budget are supported by hon. Members of this august House.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for having accorded me this opportunity to debate. While I stand to support this Vote I have made a few observations which I would love to comment on.
Madam Chairperson, when I take a close look at the amount that has been allocated to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, it gives me the impression that this ministry has not been given enough money. I say so simply because the youth are the foundation of this country. It was going to be prudent to allocate enough money to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Children Development to go towards the provision of training and purchase of materials. When you take a close look at what has been given here, it is a sad development because it is not prudent to allocate only about K882,000,000 to this ministry and expect the money to cater for the whole nation. Zambia is a vast nation what was required was to allocate sufficient money to this ministry so that each and every district can have a training centre where children can attain survival skills. In this connection, I am making an earnest appeal to the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to see to it that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning increases this Vote.

Furthermore, Madam Chairperson, there is need for the ministry to consider creating more recreation centres. The recreation centres we have in this country are not enough. That is why, in various districts at moment, we have problems. For instance, in the district where I come from, it is very difficult for most of the children to get survival skills and, in certain cases, even to get involved in modern sports. The one sport the children know out there is football. Other sports are not known. Therefore, it will be prudent for the ministry to extend a hand to the rural community out there.

Let me come to the issue of soccer in this country. Some money has been allocated towards the development of infrastructure in terms of stadia in this country. On programme 10, Activity 02 ― Stadium Infrastructure Development Support ― K70,000,000, the money allocated is not enough at all. We have so many stadiums in this country whose standards are below par. If we are to develop sport in this country, it would be prudent for the ministry to see to it that we bring the stadia to the required standards. It is for this reason that the performance of sport in this country is below par.

Madam Chairperson, further, it would be cardinal for the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to go round the country and identify the problems that our people are facing out there so that he takes care of all the problems in his ministry. That is when he is going to work better because he will know the problems which are there. However, in the absence of visiting the people in the rural community, it will be very difficult for his ministry to tick. According to my observation, concentration has been on the line of rail and this is pathetic. Why should we concentrate on urban areas only as if there are no children or youths in rural areas? It is high time we changed this attitude towards the rural areas.

Madam, the rural community plays an instrumental role. In the just ended elections, the MMD Government got a lot of votes out of the rural community, and yet, you have a negative attitude towards them. This cannot be bought anymore. It is high time you changed your behaviour towards the rural community. Enough is enough.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to stress another point about the International Council for Sport, Science and Physical education. I will marry this with the point I wanted to stress during the debate on the Vote for the Ministry of Education. Previously, the Ministry of Education used to do so well in terms of physical education. However, of late, in many schools, physical education has been neglected to the extent there are rare occasions in which they teach physical education. I remember when I joined the teaching fraternity in 1987, inspectors of schools used to go round the country, from school to school ensuring that all the subjects on the time table were being taught. Of late, this is a thing of the past. How do you expect to develop this country in terms of sport if such a thing is neglected?

Madam, I am earnestly appealing to the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to liaise with his counterpart, the hon. Minister of Education, to see to it that they teach the standard officers (former inspectors) how to raise the standard of physical education in schools because this subject has been neglected. However, when this subject is developed, we shall move forward in terms of sport.
Madam, I just want to talk about the issue of street children. This issue is cardinal. In my opinion, this problem will never come to an end if the Government and the citizenry do not put their heads together to try and find a lasting solution to it. Of course, the hon. Minister has appealed to us to join forces with the Government. It is a bright idea because we have to fight as a team, but in the absence of incorporating us, hon. Members of Parliament from the Opposition, in whatever programme you are making, you are fighting a losing battle.

Madam Chairperson, it would be prudent for our colleagues to work and in and with us.

Mr Sichilima: Hand in hand!

Laughter

Mr Chisala: Once you work hand in hand with us, …

Laughter

Mr Chisala: … everything that we want shall flourish and nothing will hinder you from achieving your goals.

Madam, sooner or later, not only the urban areas, but also the rural areas will be infiltrated with street children. When you go to places like Mansa, Livingstone, Mongu, Chipata and so on, you will find that this has already begun to develop. It is high time we found a remedy to it. It is not something very difficult because we can deal with it. My suggestion is that the parents to the children on the streets should be arrested and questioned by the Government on why they are letting their children go on the streets.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: It is not a bright idea to send their children on the streets to trouble innocent women and men, especially in the evening. It is not ideal at all. These are the children who have been robbing our women in the evening. Some of them are being sent by their parents. It is not true that each and every street child on the street has no parent.

Therefore, it is better we put our heads together to work and hand in hand to find the remedy.

I thank you, Madam.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor of the House.

The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development is a very important ministry because it shares the responsibility of developing the child with the Ministry of Education.

One of the many things that disturb me a lot is children along the street. When you ask them, they will say, ‘Ba mai bali ku Garden Compound, batate bali ku Chaisa or Chawama.’ The children are saying that their parents are alive and they are there in the compounds.

First and foremost, when God gives people the responsibility to bear children, He does that so that they look after them on His behalf. When they abrogate that responsibility, they are sure that God will never be on their side for the rest of their lives. Every person who knows very well that they have children that are not being looked after because they have not carried out their responsibilities must understand that the children that they produce are their primary responsibility. They have to look after them, see them grow and take them to school. If they have problems looking after them in certain circumstances, they should ask for help from outside their homes instead of leaving the children to roam the streets of Lusaka or Copperbelt. In some rural districts today, street children are beginning to fill up the streets. Now, this is very bad.

I would like to advise those parents, if they are listening now, to understand that a child must be looked after by the person who produced him. They must not give the responsibility to anyone else. When they were making the child, the other people were not there. Let them ensure that they honour what they did in privacy.

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: Madam Chairperson, I do know that despite the fact that some parents are not mindful of their responsibilities, the Government, through the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, as the hon. Minister has adequately elaborated on this matter, is doing all it can to ensure that these children are kept busy and get skills. However, one difficulty we have in this country is that there are too many non-governmental organisations (NGOs). Anyone who feels hungry, today, will form an NGO. If they are tired of working because 30 days is too long to wait for a salary, they form an NGO.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: After forming the NGO, they accumulate money and instead of that money being channelled to the child who is on the street, that money is shared. The NGO will pocket 75 per cent and only 25 per cent goes to the child. We have seen NGOs coming to Manda Hill and talking to the street children. They give the street kids packets of chips and sweets and so on. Surely, how can someone who wants to help this child on the streets give them food? Is he not encouraging him to stay on the streets? The idea is to rehabilitate these children so that they become part and parcel of society. There is no society on the street, but in the compounds and villages. I think it is important that all of us understand this and take the lead in ensuring that we support the efforts of the Government.
Madam Chairperson, I have seen, in the Yellow Book, under Vote 76/04, Sub-head 1, Programme 3 – Child Affairs Department Support to Institutions – (PRP) thirty-one non-governmental organisations that are being supported by the Government through the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, starting with the Salem Children’s Village and ending with Kaoma Orphanage.

Madam Chairperson, it must be understood that the Government has an interest in seeing that these institutions achieve their goals by providing them with money. Of course, some of them get funds from outside this country in order to help these children, but we must give credit to the ministry for supporting these institutions. We must thank these institutions for making efforts to ensure that these children in the various rural areas of our country are supported.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Madam Chairperson, I now want to look at sport itself. His Excellency the President, in his opening remarks of Parliament, emphasised the need for physical education to be taught in schools. Physical education is very important. It keeps the body fit. It also prepares the child to develop skills in whichever sport as they grow into adults. I am yet to find out from the hon. Minister of Education if physical education is there on the time table. If it is there, is it really being taught or is it a by the way subject? This is because when I was lecturing, there were certain times I went to observe students and I would find that physical education was on the time table. When I asked why it was not being taught, the teacher would say, ‘No, sorry, Sir, I forgot my PE attire.’

At certain times, they use the physical education period to do other things like finish off mathematics or science exercises. However, it is important that physical education is taught practically. I do know that there is the practical part of it and a part where children go and discuss with their friends. I think that physical education must be taught and the ministry, in collaboration with the Ministry of Education, should work hand in hand to ensure that this subject is taught to the fullest.
In collaboration, Madam Chairperson, with physical education, I want to talk about soccer. I do know that our own very good friends, the Chinese, are coming to help us build a stadium on the Copperbelt. This is a very good move which all of us in this country must hail, including someone there opposite me, Hon. Dr Machungwa, who is smiling so broadly.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: Soccer, Madam Chairperson, is very important. It should be extended to the rural areas. We have a lot of talent in the rural areas, but it appears most of the players in the national team come from the Copperbelt. There are very few players from Lusaka in the national team. The national team comprises players mostly from the Copperbelt. Let us ensure that we recruit children from rural areas, such as, Mulobezi. They are there. This man used to play football (Pointing to himself).

Hon. Members: Which one?

Mr Mabenga: This one speaking here.

Laughter

Mr Mabenga: You are able to get…

Hon. Member: What was your number?

Mr Mabenga: Number 7 and Number 8.

Madam, I am emphasising the fact that we must tap the talent in the rural areas and join the national team. I hail, for example, the National Assembly Football Club which is getting players from the rural areas. This is very good. I know of two players that have joined the club now who have come from rural constituencies. This is a good start. Why can the Football Association of Zambia not take lead in this very important exercise?

Finally, I want to speak and hail the efforts of our women in sport. This is boxing and, in particular, Esther Phiri.

Interruptions

Mr Mabenga: Esther Phiri gave us the courage. I did not want to leave the television screen that day because I saw how well she was performing. She was quite skillful and showed that women can also stand up and bring glory to this country in the field of boxing. I think what is lacking in boxing today is sponsorship. Let people come forward and sponsor boxing so that our young Esther Phiri reaches greater heights and brings more glory to this country.

Madam Chairperson, I want to support this ministry with the good leadership of a young hon. Minister who has grown through the ranks of administration and has now come to head this ministry. I am very positive that he will not fail with the help of the rest of the staff and the hon. Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, but take this ministry to greater heights.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, in supporting the Vote, I want to ask the Government to recognise winners. We are all aware that honours have come to this country in sports such as boxing and athletics. I am sure we all remember Lottie Mwale and Charm Chiteule. All those were boxers. However, look at how Lottie Mwale died. He died like a pauper after attaining the world’s number one gold medal in military boxing, he was number two in the world in boxing.
As Hon. Mabenga said, we now have an emerging young boxer called Esther Phiri. A few days ago, she won an international boxing tournament in Zambia. The press wrote about her. We expected the Government to say something about Esther Phiri. I expected the hon. Minister here to say something in his speech but he never did. Why? Is it because Esther is woman? Esther is a Zambian who is putting the country on the world map. If I was the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, I was going to have discussions with the hon. Minister of Lands to consider giving Esther a plot as appreciation for what she did two weeks ago.

Hon. UDA Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: We need to prepare sports men and women for retirement. People like Lottie Mwale died poor because we do not prepare them. After leaving boxing, he had nothing. When you open the sports page in newspapers, there are footballers on the Copperbelt who are living with friends. They are being supported by friends despite having brought honours to Zambia at one time. Let us recognise and appreciate winners. In this case, I am talking about Esther Phiri. Something must be done to appreciate what she has done and will continue doing so that when she retires, she will be comfortable like all those ministers after leaving Government. Giving her a diplomatic passport would also be welcome.

Private companies are supposed to sponsor sports. Hon. Mabenga has talked of the Chinese who are coming to build a football stadium. Can we ask donors to support more than football. After all, we all know that football is a disaster in this country despite Government and donors pumping in money.

Madam Chairperson, I remember when this ministry was created. My husband was the first Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development. I remember people like Mpheneka and John Mwale. Every weekend, there were sporting activities everywhere, not only football, but golf and other sports. These days, it is only football which is not bringing any honours to this country. Now that they lose even on their own ground, what do expect when they play away from home?

Therefore, let us have a discussion with our co-operating partners. If they can build stadiums for football, can they also help us build other facilities for other sporting activities.

Madam Chairperson, football can be better in this country as other hon. Members have said. We have better teams in rural areas also, but their talents are not being tapped owing to the fact that the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development and his officials are concentrating along the line of rail and in Lusaka. I am sure you all remember directors like Musa Kansonka and Ngalama Kalaluka who were field men. They never stayed in their offices, but were everywhere in Zambia looking for talent.

Madam, I sat on the Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs for many years. Each year, we called officers from the ministries of Education and Sport, Youth and Child Development to see if they could do something about schools. We were promised year in year out, that they had a joint permanent commission and were doing this and that. To our surprise, nothing has ever happened in our schools up to now, three to four years down the line.

We have no sports masters and mistresses any more. Sports fields for schools are now residential areas. They have built mansions where children are supposed to be playing. Therefore, how do we expect to improve sports in the country?

The hon. Minister has said that he is liaising with other ministries, but as I said, we have heard that before. We need to start somewhere. We are liaising on a daily basis, but nothing is coming out. We need to liaise and liaise seriously so that come 2008, we see a difference when it comes to sports in the country. As I have said, donors can help us develop these facilities.

However, hon. Minister we need to honour Esther Phiri for winning an international match. She is the first woman to beat up an international counterpart. We need to appreciate the fact that she is the first woman to have done that. How are we encouraging other women to have an interest in boxing? We can only encourage them if we honour Esther Phiri.

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: People are talking about lunch at State House and there is no problem with that. I want her to be given something tangible. The ministry can even buy her a small car, which is all right.

Mr Mooya: Free house.

Mrs Musokotwane: She can be given a free house like the Presidential Housing Initiative (PHI) houses. The ministry can afford to buy her one.

Madam Chair, the hon. Minister talked about skills training centres that they are building in two provinces this year. He did not mention Katombola Constituency, which means that Katombola is not going to have a training centre and he did not explain why. Therefore, I want to suggest to the hon. Minister, as I have suggested before, that the people of Katombola Constituency do not want the Katombola Reformatory. I have said this in this House on several times because none of those inmates come from Katombola. All the inmates come from elsewhere. Can you take them where they come from so that we can use it as a skills training centre for our boys and girls. It is not benefiting the youths of Katombola Constituency in any way.

Since we are not benefiting, the people have spoken and you are going to see a petition from the people of Katombola Constituency over the reformatory because they have realised that they are being taken for granted. Not even one inmate is from the constituency, so why should we have it there?
Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Meanwhile, we are crying for a skills training centre and secondary school in the area. That facility is good for skills training and could also be best for a senior secondary school.
So can somebody do something about those inmates and take them where they belong because they do not belong to Katombola Constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to present my maiden speech to this August House.

Due to the etiquette and civility that abounds in Sinda Constituency I will be failing in my duty if I do not congratulate Hon. Amusaa Mwanamwambwa for being elected Speaker of this august House. May God grant him a clean mind, vigour and good health in order to chair on all matters that shall come under our deliberations in so just and faithful a manner to promote God’s honour and glory.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Ngoma: In the same vein, allow me to congratulate Madam Deputy Speaker on having been elected first woman Deputy Speaker of this august House. In this country today, the strides and achievements women in positions of responsibility have achieved are great and a source of pride for all to see. I wish you all the best Madam Deputy Speaker.

Last but not the least I take this rare opportunity to congratulate the Deputy Chairman of Committees of the Whole House on being elected unopposed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear.
Mr Ngoma: This is a mark of confidence Members of Parliament have placed in him. It was not easy.

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, allow me, at this point, to wholeheartedly thank the people of Sinda Constituency for having overwhelmingly elected me as their Member of Parliament for the second term. The only way I shall pay back is by continuing to represent them with brevity and in the most dignified manner I can.

Prior to the tripartite elections, there was talk that all the Members of Parliament in Sinda stay for only one term. However, this talk was proved erroneous against all odds after I was re-elected.

Madam, I would also like to thank the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD), through its president Edith Nawakwi, and the United Democratic Alliance (UDA) leadership for adopting me to stand in Sinda in the just ended elections. I remain indebted and shall continue to be obedient to the ideals of the party and its leadership.

Knowing that we are all products of the 2006 elections, allow me to commend one department of Government, the Police, under the able leadership of the current Inspector General, Mr Ephraim Mateyo, for their exemplary conduct during the tripartite elections.

Amidst all difficulty, the Inspector-General of Police even decentralised police notification towards rallies to as low as a police post. We need more of his type to move this country forward.

Madam Chair, following the tripartite elections, this country was almost engulfed in riots and violence. There were riots in Mandevu, Matero Chawama and Kitwe. In these riots, even the Police were overpowered. Allow me, therefore, to thank the main opposition players in the elections, Mr Michael Sata and Mr Hakainde Hichilema for defusing these bitter feelings. Had these leaders been selfish and power hungry, there would have been total chaos in this country. As opposed to calling these leaders names, we need to commend them for their maturity and for appealing to their followers to remain calm and respect the outcome of the elections. That is what democracy ought to be. Winners and losers alike should work together after elections because we are all members of one mother Zambia. In this vein, I would like to urge all my hon. Colleagues, in this august House, to preach reconciliation as they visit their constituencies.

Mr Syakalima: Quality!

Mr Ngoma: By so doing, we shall defeat one obstacle of development; political hatred.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: We should not allow the ugly head of political hatred to rule this country. Currently, there is so much political hatred in the nation. It is, therefore, a challenge to all of us to fight this evil and move Zambia forward.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, in 2001, we came up with a vision for Sinda Constituency which reads, ‘A prosperous Sinda, habitable to all.’ For this vision to be realised, we need a good agricultural system, good roads and bridges, good health and education facilities, good recreation facilities and, above all, a good political, social, spiritual and cultural leadership.

With regard to agriculture, Sinda Constituency has very had working people. Sinda Constituency, alone, accounts for about 45 per cent of the produce for Katete District. There is a lot of maize, cotton, groundnuts and sunflower production. These have given rise to a lot of economic activities in Sinda.

However, much as the farmers are eager to produce, they have been let down by the agricultural programmes of the MMD Government. 
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Tell them!

Mr Ngoma: As I am talking right now, over 1,000 farmers have to be refunded their payments for the Fertiliser Support Programme owing to the inadequate fertiliser supplied by the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Shame!

Mr Ngoma: These farmers were being refunded in February and in other parts of the country, they are being refunded now. Surely, how do you expect agriculture to improve?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, agricultural marketing is in shambles in this country. Farmers have always been encouraged to produce, but at the end of the day, they do not have sufficient market for their products. A bumper harvest without a proper marketing arrangement is irrelevant to this country.

Ms Limata: Hammer my brother!

Mr Ngoma: We need to have a new marketing arrangement for our farmers. Due to poor marketing arrangements, farmers spend two weeks in the cold to just have their produce weighed and another two months to be paid. Madam, farmers have been disappointed across the country.

As far as agricultural marketing is concerned, we need to do what President Mwanawasa said in 2002 during the Official Opening of the First Session of the Ninth National Assembly. For me, the best Presidential speech was that of 2002 because it was issue based. Allow me to quote President Mwanawasa on Page 33, Paragraph 44.

‘It is also true that most of our agricultural crisis were manmade and intentional. There are people who deliberately created management hiccups so that they could thrive on chaos.’

On Page 35, Paragraph 49, President Mwanawasa had this to say:

‘Mr Speaker, you will concur with me that the performance of the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) has left the farming community disappointed. It has not performed its mandated role to our satisfaction. My Government suggests the establishment of the Crop Marketing Authority to take care of both strategic reserves and to be a buyer of the last resort for designated crops. The Food Reserve Agency will be phased out. However, before this is done, I will ensure that the outstanding loans are paid back.’

Madam Chairperson, this is what an intelligent Mwanawasa said then.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Six years down the line, things are still the same. Is the Crop Marketing Authority a reality? No! Has the Food Reserve Agency stopped disappointing farmers?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Ngoma: No! Has the Food Reserve Agency been phased out and outstanding loans repaid? The answer is no!

How do we expect agriculture to improve if we say one good thing and fail to implement the undertaking? Let the MMD Government improve the marketing arrangement for the farmers in this country. This is a tricky issue which needs urgent address. Short of phasing it out, the FRA needs a complete overhaul.

Madam Chairperson, the Government needs to take a close look at the activities of the cotton industry in this country.  

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Ngoma: Farmers are being swindled in broad daylight. Companies like Dunavant, Clark Cotton, CJL and Mulungushi Cotton ought to be checked. In the name of encouraging foreign and local investment, we should not allow our farmers to be exploited.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, these big companies have continued to enslave our farmers by giving them low prices for cotton production. A case in point is the one where cotton was offered for K800.00 per 1kg last year. In order to produce a kilogram of cotton, a farmer needs about K900.00. Therefore, fixing the selling price at K800.00 per kilogramme is a mockery, insult and act of theft.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, you can imagine that all this is happening in this country with our Government watching hands akimbo. Much as the Government cannot dictate the prices, prices that are lower than the cost of production should not be entertained. Failure to do so, chiefs, especially in Eastern Province, and other progressive hon. Members of Parliament like myself shall encourage our farmers to stop cotton production. This is timely advice.

Madam Chairperson, the Government needs to urgently improve the road infrastructure in Sinda Constituency. Due to brevity of time, allow me to say that even if farmers produced their crops, with the poor road infrastructure, the crops will not reach the intended markets. 
Madam, the population of our constituency has grown tremendously and, therefore, we need a high school of our own.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to talk about the Budget as well. The way our National Budget is prepared and later on presented and approved is archaic, outdated and a mockery.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, the Budget cycle needs urgent review. Right now, we are approving a Budget whose implementation, in principle, has already happened. The Budget we are approving is for the period 1st January, 2007 to 31st December, 2007, but this is now March, 2007. In order to normalise things, there is a Presidential warrant in place from January to March. This is a lacuna in the Budget process. We are not in a state of panic or at war. I think we can do better.

Madam Chairperson, I, therefore, propose that the Government should urgently put in place mechanisms for the House to approve the National Budget by November or October of the previous year.

Madam, all hon. Members of Parliament come to this august House to approve the National Budget and the question that begs an answer is: Can the majority of hon. Members of Parliament clearly identify the National Budget in their constituencies?’

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Ngoma: The answer is a categorical, ‘no.’ Apart from the Constituency Development Fund and the Constituency Youth Fund, there is very little which goes to the constituencies where our people live.

Madam Chairperson, Activity Based Budgeting is an excellent method of budgeting if it is done in the right way. I call upon the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Government to practically involve the grassroots in the preparation of the National Budget for Activity Based Budgeting to have meaning. It should be very clear for hon. Members of Parliament to interpret how moneys shall trickle down to their constituencies.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, allow me to use a Chewa phrase which says, ‘Samva za anzake anamva nkhwangwa ili mutu.’

Laughter

Mr. Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, this means that a person who does not listen to his/her friends only listened after being axed in the head.’

Mr Lubinda: Mwa mvela?

Mr Ngoma: Madam Chairperson, ‘twachula sana, pafula.’ ‘Twapenga.’ This means that we have suffered enough. We need a new Constitution in this country urgently. It is do or die.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Malwa): Madam Chairperson, I rise to support the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Sport unifies the people of a country, in Zambia as well as outside the country. In Africa, we compete through the Africa Cup of Nations. Locally, we compete through league games and worldwide, we compete in the World Cup.

Through sport, we are able to interact and exchange ideas. It also boosts our economy because when we interact, we discuss trade, either individually or through company or country representation. Sport has no room for political affiliation.

In sport, we keep ourselves very fit. I am pleased to hear that the Dag Hammarskjöld Stadium, which was demolished, will now be reconstructed in Ndola. This is good because we can now have two big stadia. I have also heard that another big stadium will be constructed in Livingstone. This, indeed, is a very big achievement. I also need a stadium to be constructed in my constituency, Kapiri Mposhi, because it is centrally located. This way, the Midlands Football Teams and the Copperbelt Football Teams can meet on the football ground in Kapiri Mposhi to compete favourably and on neutral grounds.

Hon Government Member: We shall give it to you because you voted well.

Mr Malwa: Thank you, if you can give me one.

Madam, I would like to dwell a bit on the Child Affairs Department. This ministry has a key responsibility of looking after the entire children’s affairs. Some children are orphaned and others are vulnerable, hence, they need a lot of help and this is why this ministry needs a lot of money. We know very well that children are the future leaders of this country, future Members of Parliament of this country and future presidents; although I know that they will follow their parents’ footsteps, especially on my left and right side.

It is also good to see that every year, the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development gives awards to deserving, outstanding players to boost their morale. This is very gratifying and it is good to see that His Excellency, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, has invited Esther Phiri to State House. This is quite an honour for her and a very big gesture on the part of the President to invite the Boxer Lady. This will also boost the morale of other women boxers and encourage them to come up.

In this country, football is a key sport. Of course, there are other forms of sport that we can engage in like rugby and swimming. Nevertheless, the ministry is aware that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development is a key ministry because it brings people together. Even we, as hon. Members of Parliament, e have the ‘Madalas Game’ and so do the women. Please, let us engage in these games so that we can keep fit even as we debate …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)
_________

The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 30th March, 2007.

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