Debate- Friday, 30th March, 2007

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Friday, 30th March, 2007

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 3rd April, 2007, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will go into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider the Heads of Expenditure that may not have been concluded today, Friday, 30th March, 2007.

On Wednesday, 4th April, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider Private Member’s Motions, if there will any. Then, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will continue considering outstanding Heads of Expenditure.

On Thursday, 5th April, 2007, the business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider any business that will not have been completed on Wednesday, 4th April, 2007.

Mr Speaker, all things being equal, it is my intention on this day to move a motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders to enable the House complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising therefrom and adjourn the House sine die.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




383. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education why the University of Zambia Library had not been restocked with the latest editions of books and journals for a long time now.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, the University of Zambia is a Government supported institution that depends almost entirely on Government subventions for its operations. As such, the institution, just like any other grant-aided institution, experienced budgetary deficits before the Heavily Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative period that the country underwent for some time. Therefore, the University did not fully receive the funds that were requested in the institutional budget. This development made it very difficult for the University to procure latest editions and materials, including valuable journal literature for the library.

Mr Speaker, during this whole process, the library resorted to soliciting for donations for literacy materials for the purpose of trying to access current literature to augment the old stock of literature materials in the library.

In 2005, the Government released about K1 billion for use on purchasing textbooks for courses offered at the University. Unfortunately, the amount was below what was required to fulfil the textbook recommendations that were received from the schools and directorates. Despite the inadequacy of latest books in the library, the University of Zambia Library offers Internet connectivity to enable students and researchers access latest literature for their studies. In addition, the Government has continued to pay book allowances to students to enable them procure the prescribed books in their various programmes. Therefore, there will be continued funding to support the provision of latest textbooks and restocking of the library collections, as more funds are made available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Education aware that the lack of restocking of latest materials has been as a result of inadequate funding that go towards the highest institution of higher learning in the country?

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Minister of Education re-emphasise the point that she made.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I responded to that question. We are saying that the country underwent a period of HIPC Initiative during which period funding to the University of Zambia was reduced. However, as funding is made available, more resources will be allocated to the University of Zambia to meet that need.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Education stated that they have provided some Internet facilities to enable students access latest publications. Will these facilities will be provided in the rooms to enable students access those facilities in their own time.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I would like to categorically state that it is not possible for the Government to provide computers to all students in their rooms, but at the library and in various schools, we have enough computers which students can access in their own time. It is not a matter of providing computers in the rooms, but going to where the facilities are within the University premises.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister of Education not realise that the use of these outdated facilities at the University is the reason they have continued receiving or rather continued producing half-baked qualified graduates?

Mr Speaker: Order!

The phrase ‘half-baked’ has been ruled unparliamentary, in this House, for many years. However, the hon. Minister of Education will give an answer.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question. I would like to inform this House that I do not think there is any information that can be outdated because we always learn from history. Therefore, the books that are in the University of Zambia Library currently have significance to some courses. It is not all the books that are completely useless. Therefore, that information cannot be discarded because it is there for reference purposes. However, the University of Zambia in conjunction with my ministry has always provided latest editions in the new courses. For the old courses, the books that are there are actually sufficient. Before a new course is introduced at the University of Zambia, the Ministry and the University make sure the required books are there. If they are not there, the University has always given students access to the Internet while the lecturers also produce handouts to the students.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, taking into account the fact that there are a lot of self-sponsored students who are paying a lot of money to the University, has the Ministry considered using part of that money to purchase books to further the education of our children?

Ms Changwe:  The money that is paid to the University by self-sponsored students is actually used for procurement of various goods and services. I would like to state that the money that is paid to a particular school is used to pay the part-time lecturers and for acquiring other goods and services within a particular school. However, there is a possibility that some of this money could be used for purchasing books. I would not state here that it is not used for purchasing books because we have not been asked that question. Given time, we would find out how much or what percentage of that money is used to purchase books.


384. Mr Banda (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Health when extension work to Lundazi District Hospital, which had stalled since 2001, would commence.

The Minister of Health (Ms Cifire): Mr Speaker, the Outpatients Department extension works at Lundazi District Hospital were started in 1996 using the grant allocation. The work stalled because of insufficient funds since the hospital had just started using the Grant and that was affecting its operations. However, as a Ministry, we are assessing the works that were done and re-evaluating with a view to commencing the works because the initiative started was a good one.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Banda: Mr Speaker, with an allocation of a lot of money to the Ministry of Health in this year’s Budget, can the Minister confirm whether this project will kick off this year around?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, I said that we are re-assessing and re-evaluating because there are a number of such projects which were started and our view is that we should complete most of these before we start new ones.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chilembo (Chama North): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if there are plans to implement the 2005 plan to extend the Chama District Hospital to a first level hospital.

Mr Speaker: This question refers to Lundazi, by the way. Question 384 refers to Lundazi District hospital is this the hospital that the hon. Member for Chama North is talking about?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, it is not, but I was just wondering if the gesture will extend to Chama.

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, the answer is the same. I said we are re-assessing most of the projects which were started with a view to completing them if we can.



the Chair]

VOTE 76 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development –  K59, 953,379,203).

(Consideration resumed)

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Malwa): Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Sport Youth and Child Development needs a lot of financial support from all well wishers. Banking institutions such as Barclays Bank and Standard Chartered Bank can play an important role in supporting sport. Beverages companies such as Zambia Breweries are currently sponsoring the Mosi Cup and rugby games. The National Milling Company also sponsored the just ended International Boxing Tournament which involved Esther Phiri. I would like to urge more companies that are involved in utility services in communities to pay back by sponsoring a lot of sports activities. For instance, Celtel are currently sponsoring the golf tournament which is taking place on Copperbelt.

On the side of the Government, we, in the august House, are ready and willing to demonstrate and promote unity in playing sport in the Madala’s game with our colleagues within the House. We have the Liatos who can play with the Kambwilis and the Muntangas on the other side. We could have in the goals, the women like the Changwes and the Masiyes on the other side if that is what it means to promote unity amongst us in the House.

Sport also promotes business in places such as bars and local hotels, especially when local teams carry the day. Business also booms at fuel stations because people move from all over the place just to watch the games. You will also agree with me that sport promotes unity even in our homes as it makes everyone in the family, including children, happy. Therefore, it is very important that our National Team find a formula of winning games each time we are playing international tournaments. If it means recruiting an expatriate coach to improve soccer in this country, we will do that because we need to win games.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute on the Vote of the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

In supporting this vote, I wish to outrightly state that the K59 billion allocated to this ministry, is not enough. This shows that the Government has no political will towards sport and youth development. In this time, where we have high levels of unemployment, we expected this Government, through the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, to put more money in this ministry so that the youths can be afforded an opportunity to be active in sports.

Mr Chairperson, youth development plays a cardinal role in the development of any nation. At the moment, most of the youths are involved in smoking dagger and drinking chibuku. The reason is very simple. These youths have no sports facilities where they can go and spend their time.

If you visit ex-Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) towns on the Copperbelt today, you will be shocked. In the ZCCM scenario, all the mining towns were involved in sports activities. For example, Luanshya had a famous festival playing field that was created by ZCCM. If you visit the sports facilities in Luanshya today, you would cry. The old ground is now over grown with grass as if last year there was a field of maize. This is shameful. We have allowed the investors not to take up the social responsibilities in the ex-mining townships. We are surprised that we have been told in this House more often than not, that the new investors are ploughing back in the communities where they operate by sponsoring sport. Football is not the only sport in Zambia. We would like to see a situation where wokey ..

Mr V. Mwale: Hockey!

Mr Kambwili: Hockey, rugby, table tennis, long tennis and many other sport disciplines are promoted in the ex-mining areas.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Those of us who grew up in the mining areas find it sad to see the youths today engaging in illicit activities because there are no sporting activities in those areas.

For instance, there used to be a bus in Luanshya that used to pick youths from Mpatamato, and Roan townships to the Roan Soccer Fields for sports everyday at 1600 hours. Today, there is completely nothing going on in the Roan Soccer Fields. The place is completely dilapidated. We need to come up with a law in this country which will compel these companies to support sport when they buy our industries.

Mr Chairperson, MTN is one of the major sponsors of the South African Plc. League, but here they do not sponsor any sporting activity at all. We need the hon. Minister to approach them and ask them what the problem is. Tell them that they are making money from the Zambians and we would like them to sponsor some sports activities in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Hon. Minister, I am urging you to seriously engage all the major companies in this country such as Celtel, MTN and many others to compel them to support sports activities in this country.

What has gone wrong with football in this country? I am surprised that an hon. Deputy Minister (Mr Malwa) can stand here and say, ‘we need an expatriate coach.’ Shame on you, hon. Minister! We have a lot of coaches. We have to go back to the drawing board on this matter.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: I withdraw the words ‘shame on you, hon. Minister’…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!


The Deputy Chairperson: That is right! I wanted to say the use of the words, ‘shame on you hon. Minister,’ are not very appropriate for debate in the House.

Please, withdraw them and continue?

Mr Kambwili: I withdraw the words, Mr Chairperson. Reconsider your stance, hon. Minister. We do not need an expatriate coach to run our football team. Even here, amongst us hon. Members of Parliament, we have got a coach, Emmanuel Munaile, who is well qualified.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: All we need is go back to the drawing board and see where we have gone wrong.

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Iwe leka tulande naiwe!

Mr Malwa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan in order to state that there is no need to bring in an expatriate coach and yet, when we brought in Kalusha Bwalya, the same Roan rejected him and said he was not a good coach.


Mr Malwa: I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: He is expressing an opinion and if anybody is going to have contrary views, I am sure that we are going to hear them later.

Mr Kambwili: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

I am surprised that my Colleague has to state that Roan rejected Kalusha Bwalya when it is only yesterday when we were being told to be factual in our debates. I think, he is the one who is not in order.


Mr Kambwili: However, what has gone wrong with the Zambian football?  What has gone wrong is the lack of a nursery. What used to be the nursery in Zambia is today the national team. What do I mean?

During the 1970s and early 1980s, we used to have football in schools. You would be surprised that nowadays you hardly hear about football in schools. When we played football in primary schools, it was like the Zambia National Team playing. You would see a lot of people coming to watch football at the primary school level. However, such a thing does not happen in primary schools now. We need to go back to start football from the primary schools. We are supposed to have the under twelve, under sixteen, under seventeen, division three, division two, division one and then the premier leagues if we have to realise our goals in football.

At the moment, what is happening is that someone just completes school from Matero Secondary School and is in the National Team. That is why this country will never perform. We need to build a nursery for the National Team.

In fact, in any development, you must be prepared to spend. This ministry has not spent any money on the development of football, except to sponsor the National Team. We would like them to provide a budget for each district to run an amateur football association or amateur football so that we can create a nursery for the National Team.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We can even bring the best Manchester Coach (Alex Fergusson), but with the material that we have, Zambia will not go anywhere. We can bring in whatever expatriate coach and pay him millions of Kwacha which we are supposed to expend on other developmental projects in our country, but Zambia will never change, unless the ZCCM arrangement is effected.

It was surprising in the olden days to hear that a league has been won by teams in Lusaka. The league used to be won by teams on the Copperbelt.

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Now, why are all the big teams such as Nkana, Red Devils and Mufulira Wanderers not in the First Division? We have to ask ourselves this question. Why is Wanderers in the Second Division, and yet we are being told that Mopani Copper Mines sponsors sport. The U$4,000 that they are paying Mufulira Wanderers and Nkana Red Devils per month cannot attract good players to join those teams. We need to compel these investors, especially the mining investors to pick up from where ZCCM left of. It is sad to go back. It is retrogressive to develop something that was already developed. We need to take development to higher heights, but what we have seen in the clubs in the ex-mining towns, is that all the clubs are going down.

Sir, let me pay tribute to the Luanshya Copper Mine for, at least, trying to support Roan United financially. It is the only division apart from KCM Nchanga who are looking after their players well. The other mining industries on the Copperbelt have contributed to the low standards of football in the country. Unless we revisit that, Zambia will never have a reputable National Team.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to team discipline, in the past, players never used to drink beer in the presence of their coach. Some of the coaches we have today also need to be oriented. You will find that just after the game, the coach is busy drinking with these players. How do you discipline the players like that? We want discipline amongst the players. We want people like Fortson Kabole. If a player was smoking, immediately he saw the face of Fortson Kabole, he would throw the cigarette away and pretend that he was not smoking. Those are the coaches that we need for this country. Today, we have coaches who drink beer and share cigarettes with the players. How do we expect the National Team to perform like this? I am urging the ministry to look into the issues that I have raised seriously, if the National Team has to perform the way it used to.

Mr Chairperson, if you go to the Copperbelt today, you can cry if you look at the ex-ZCCM Youth Development Training Skills. The infrastructure is there, but is just derelict and going to waste, and yet the youths are smoking dagga and drinking chibuku. In the past, it was unheard of for somebody at the age of eighteen or sixteen to have bola bola. Now, because the youths have nothing to do, syphilis is on them.


Mr Kambwili: Please, let us provide for these youths and make them …

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I need your very serious ruling. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order, as we are discussing the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, to use some unpalatable words here which are not synonymous with youths? He talked of youths smoking dagga and he is now talking of youths being infected with syphilis. He even says if you went to the Copperbelt, you would cry, but I do not see him crying even when he comes from there. Is he in order to debate in this manner?


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning somehow debated his point of order. Nevertheless, can the hon. Member on the Floor take into account that point of order as he debates?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, we have cried and the tears have dried.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I passionately talk about the former ZCCM because I am a son of a miner. I am a former miner and I grew up in a mining township. All the Grade 9 dropouts were taken in under the ZCCM Youth Development Scheme. Where these trainings were done, infrastructure is there. This infrastructure has just become brothels. Nobody is occupying or using that infrastructure. We are only told that it is under the receiver and waiting to be sold. Please, can we go back to the drawing board and, through the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, restart these youth developments to help our youths get busy in the communities and prevent them from getting engaged in illicit activities.

Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to congratulate Hon. Gabriel Namulambe for being appointed Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development. This shows that now, as youths, we are taking the lead in making decisions in this country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, as you can see, there are more than ten people who want to speak. We started debating this Head yesterday. I just would like to inform you that we have more than six heads today. The Acting Leader of Government Business has told us that the House will have to adjourn sine die next week on Thursday. If you look at the programme, we still have more than twenty or fifteen heads and provinces. I have seven notes here from hon. Members who all wish to speak. You can see the challenges which the Chair is facing. We realise that we all want to speak, but unfortunately, we have a time limit. I will give one more person to debate on this Head.


Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to debate. I would like, as Hon. Kambwili said, to congratulate the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development on the very big task given to him. I hope he will have his ears to the ground and take all the suggestions that people are going to give him regardless of where they come from if we are going to develop.

Mr Chairperson, youths in this country are a very important human resource and we need to take very good care of them. We could only take care of the youths by starting from the word go. We do not have to wait until they are seventeen for us to sit and decide that we must give them K40 million Youth Development Fund when we do not even know their background and where they came from. We need to mould our youths and this should start from the curriculum. I think I said it last time that the curriculum would determine what sort of …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are consulting loudly. Let us do it quietly.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Sir, the curriculum will determine what sort of children we are going to bring out and how responsible they are going to be. I will discuss this one when we come to the Vote of the Ministry of Education.

Mr Chairperson, another issue is that when we are dealing with youth problems, we should not politicise them. Let us look at them as realistically as possible. If we politicise everything that we do, we are going to be blind to the things that we are supposed to do. The youths are the ones who are roaming the streets. They have no employment. Much as I do not agree to illegal structures, we should know who is in these structures. It is the youths, but why are they there? They are there because we have not provided for them. They have the intelligence which they do not put to good use because they have nothing to do. Let us find something tangible for the youths to do. Let us create more skills centres. This is critical.

Mr Chairperson, in all the constituencies, it would be better if we had skills training centres in different modes so that the youths can be given the chance to be useful. Right now, in my constituency, there are more bars than anything else. When somebody goes to apply for a license to do anything else, they are not given. It is very difficult to get land, but very easy to run bars. You will find that there is a bar adjacent to a church and a school. Children as young as twelve drink in these bars. What have we done and where are the laws? This is because we talk about things that have no backing of the law. Even if I went to the Barman to say do not take these children, he will not listen and if I bring in the law, it will not go any further. It ends there. Let us protect our children. Even in the councils, because we are much more concerned with money, the Government has stopped giving services unless there is money. Let us look at what we are doing to our children. The council policemen are now making money instead of being in the compounds to instil law and order. When I was growing up, we had council policemen, who would not allow children to enter bars. Now, it has been left to whoever gets concerned. I am sure that we cannot run a country this way.

People say there are crooks in Matero. The youths in Matero can make Dollars and they can make degree certificates. They are capable of doing anything. This shows that they have the brains and the skill, but are misdirected. We need to put them together and let these skills be put to good use just like anywhere else.

When it comes to offering employment, where have our industries gone?  We cannot have a country of ‘tuntembas’. They are there on each and every corner. Where has the production gone? We should have a manufacturing industry because if we have that it is certain that most of our youths will get jobs. Even when investors such as Shoprite come into the country, do not allow them to buy old companies such as the Zambia Consumer Buying Co-operation (ZCBC). Let them start building from scratch so that our youths can get employment. We are not growing nor are we getting anywhere.

I would also like to talk about sport and where youths can pass time. I spent a lot of time in my constituency yesterday going round trying to organize the youths to engage in sports. What has happened? The cadres have given out all the land.

Hon. Opposition Members: MMD Cadres.

Mrs Sinyangwe: You cannot have a situation where you have houses all over. You cannot even build a clinic or a school. That is how serious the situation is and that is why I am saying that this Government must sort out this mess that they have created. You should sort it out. Some of you are going around telling people …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Sinyangwe, I prefer that you address the Chair so that you do not attract points of order. This is because when you say ‘you’, then you are talking to them directly, but if you say ‘they’, then you are protected.

You may continue.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Sorry, Mr Chairman.

I would like to say that some of these people are going around saying Patriotic Front Councils are demolishing houses and other structures. It is not us who are demolishing houses so let them demolish them. They are the ones that brought this up and they should sort it out. There is no order. We are not going to have a situation where we are going to please people for the sake of pleasing them and destroy law and order.

There are houses on top of sewer lines and youths are just roaming in the streets with no direction. Let us give them direction. Let us have the Sports Evening Schools. When I went round, I noticed schools have been fenced off because people fear vandalism. All the school grounds have been taken up. It is said that ‘all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy’. Let us give our youths the facilities that they need. The community halls must be there to provide the facilities for our children.

Lastly, I would like to say that we should have political will to move our youths forward. Hon Minister, we are here to give you the support. I have always offered my support where there is a positive theme.

 We also have a problem of Committees of Youth Development Fund. We went for elections on 28th September 2006. Some committees were elected on 27th, 28th ,29th September, 2006.

Hon. Opposition Member: Even before.

Mrs Sinyangwe: On those committees, the Member of Parliament is supposed to spearhead the programmes. How do I work with people I do not know? Up to now, I have not seen the committee that was put in place. I wrote to the hon. Minister and announced to all political parties, organisations and churches that on Saturday, we should meet in the community hall and elect a committee that will serve the people of Matero …

Mr Lubinda: And Kabwata.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Therefore, when we are doing these things, lets us not politicise them, just like we do not want to pliticise anything else. I will not politicise issues. I am there to offer my services to anybody as long as we are working in the name of development.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Thank you for allowing me to wind up debate on my ministry’s Vote, which is on the Floor. Firstly, I would like to thank all the Members for supporting the Vote for my ministry and very briefly, I would like to answer a few concerns that have been raised by the Members of Parliament because some of them are of paramount importance.

The hon. Member for Chilubi had talked about the lack of recreation centers in most districts. I think my ministry had written to most local authorities to avail us with some buildings that are not being used so that we could rehabilitate them for the use of the children in those areas. It is only Livingstone and Solwezi which has given us some halls which we are working on for use by the children in those respective areas. In Chilubi, there are some structures that we can make use of. I think that since the Member is a councillor, we can always be advised. Allow me to mention that it is the responsibility of the local authorities to provide recreation centres. Since all of us are Councillors, can we ask ourselves what we are doing about the re-creation centres? We should not leave everything to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, and yet some of those functions are for the local authorities where we are Members.

As regards the visiting to the areas, we are not going to be in Lusaka, but tour almost all the districts to ensure that issues dealing with the youths, the children and the sports activities are followed up. Therefore, we will inform you, as Members of Parliament, about the days that we will be in your areas. We are open to suggestions and advice so that we make good things that are expected from our ministry by our youths. The budget that we have, although there are not enough funds as you were saying, for a start, the funds are adequate because we have declared 2007 a year of action. We will build from there so that even if we demanded for more funding in next year’s budget, at least we should have laid a foundation this year.

There was also the issue of fake Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs). During my policy debates yesterday, I talked about our intentions to make operational the policies that we have in place. I think that as we co-ordinate the issues with all the stakeholders, we are going to ensure that we take stock of all the NGOs that are operating in Zambia with a view to have some of those that are desk NGOs deregistered. If we find out that they are just there to make money for themselves, we will go ahead and partner with NGOs that mean well for the people in Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Namulambe: We have also established the Provincial Mobilisation Committee under the Chairmanship of the Provincial Permanent Secretary and requested his committee to ensure that all the NGOs that are operating in respective districts are registered.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to all hon. Members of Parliament, since they are also members of district councils, to ensure that, through the councils, all NGOs operating in their areas are registered. Councils should know which NGO is working where because there are some NGOs that operate from houses and those are the ones that sometimes encourage streetism because they would go to the streets to give alms to the children with a view of getting some more funding from donors who are not in Zambia.

There were also some concerns on sports in schools. During my policy debate, I discussed that we were going to revive the Zambian Schools Sports Association and work closely with the Ministry of Education so that, through the schools, we can identify sportsmen and women who have skills in athletics and football. This will be very seriously considered.

As regards visiting the rural areas, I had mentioned that we have Sport For All Programme. This programme is meant to cater for all parts of Zambia. Hence, no part is going to be left out.

Therefore, as you approve my budget today, we are going to draw up a programme to ensure that all your areas are covered. We have filled all positions of all provincial staff that were missing so that there is a link between the Ministry Headquarters and the provinces. Further, we are going to ensure that even at the district level, we have some staff.

Mr Chairperson, there was a concern by my elder sister, the hon. Member for Katombola, regarding our female boxer Esther Phiri. She said that the Government was expected to say something. In my view, the President who is the Head of Government had conveyed massages of congratulations to Esther Phiri and he has extended an invitation to her to go to State House on 4th April, 2007. I do not know what more information is expected from the Government because the Head of State has already spoken.

Therefore, I do not think it is right to suggest that the Government is not doing anything regarding the welfare of the boxer. It must be noted that boxing is a professional sport and as such, there are rules that we follow in order to arrive at something.

Yes, there are could be suggestions of whether the Government can do this and that, but for how many sportsmen and women of Zambia is the Government going to be responsible for? Should the Government build a house for whoever comes with a Gold medal? How many of the sportsmen and women is the Government going to honour in this country?

Major Chibamba: All of them.

Mr Namulambe: We were going to be happy if you, as hon. Members of Parliament, could pledge something towards these sportsmen and women especially if they are coming from their constituencies.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: My elder sister further went on to say that the people of Katombola are not benefiting from the Katombola Reformatory. I do not know in what context she would want the people of Katombola to benefit. Maybe, she should encourage the people from that area to err so that they are put in the reformatory.


Mr Namulambe: Maybe, in that way, they are going to benefit. This institution is meant to reform all wrongdoers and we would like them to grow proper citizens. I would, therefore, like to plead to all well meaning Zambians to discard this notion of trying to make certain structures to be like personal for people in whose areas these structures are located.

Sir, let us talk about the University, which is in Lusaka. We cannot say that the people of Lusaka should not accept any person from Shang’ombo at the University of Zambia. All Government institutions in this country are for the people of Zambia and not for those in that particular area where that infrastructure is located only.

Mr Chairperson, there was also a concern regarding the issue of an expatriate coach. We are not going to go backwards. Instead, we are going ahead to employ an expatriate coach.

Mr L. J. Ngoma: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: My elder brother from Roan Constituency talked about the local coaches sharing beds with players. The hon. Member was against the employment of an expatriate coach. In my view, he was trying to contradict himself and in that same statement, he was simply indicating that there is a need to have an expatriate coach. I also believe that, as Zambians, we must have our own coaches. Hence, we have developed a system, where we have tried to advise people who are responsible for the coaches to ensure that we also train our local coaches.

The current status of football in Zambia now dictates a need to have an expatriate coach.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Namulambe: Even developed countries have got expatriate coaches.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: What can stop us from having an expatriate coach? Maybe, after doing that, we should ensure that our own coaches are on a par with those whom we call expatriate coaches.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan also talked about the ex-ZCCM youth skills training centres. It is the intention of my ministry to, at least, open one youth skills training centre in each district. Therefore, if there are structures, which are not being used, we are going to make a follow up to ensure that we take them over, as a Government, for the benefit of the youths in Zambia.

Sir, we are going to be open to suggestions that hon. Members will make in order for my ministry to steer the youth, children and sports development in this country. We are not going to politicise issues. Hence, the reason we are there as a Government.

Mr Chairperson, this is the more reason why we get so concerned when there are some national functions such as the Youth Day. Instead of treating that as a National Day for the youth, some people want to politicise it and bring confusion to disturb things that are properly organised.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Namulambe: Therefore, if people want to develop, they must not politicise national issues, but work towards supporting them. We, as a Government, have the political will to ensure that we do the right things.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, time and again, the Head of State has stated that we are going to accommodate suggestions even from the Opposition. Therefore, if people come with confusion as was the case during the Youth Day celebrations, there is no way we can accommodate their suggestions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: My office is always open to suggestions. I have accorded hon. Members that have been to my ministry a chance to enter my office even when I am busy. I do not mind whether they are from the Opposition or not. We mean well because we are determined to ensure that we correct things for the betterment of Zambia.

As regards the issue of youth unemployment, I think there is a need for us to determine what employment is. Sometimes we mistake formal employment for informal employment. Some people always think that a person is in employment if he or she is employed by somebody. Some people do not want to work for others. Why can people not be innovative and become employers? This Government has provided K30 billion for the youths to come up with viable projects so that they can be employers.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: It is not always necessary that these youths are employed by elderly people. They must also become employers of elderly people. This is what we are planning to do.


Mr Namulambe: There are some youths who are doing a lot on their own. For instance, during the Youth Week, I noticed that youths from the University of Zambia invented certain machinery to be used in agriculture. We are trying to encourage them to be innovative. Instead of importing simple things from outside, we can make them locally.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: The only thing we can do, as a Government, is provide them with resources so that they are able to import some raw materials if they are not available.

Therefore, as you talk about youth unemployment, be specific of what you are talking about because there is no person who has the statistics on the employed or unemployed.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Youth Development Fund, some Members of Parliament have been appointing members of their choice for the committees. We are saying that these committees are non-partisan. Let the youth be responsible for appointing the people they feel can be in those committees. It is not the responsibility of the hon. Members of Parliament to appoint members of the committees. Let us ensure that the youths elect the members themselves.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/02 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Sports Department – K7,435,526,244).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3, Activities 01 – National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ) – K429,200,000, 02 – Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) – K480,000,000 and 03 – Zambia Professional Boxing – K60,000,000. The National Sports Council of Zambia has been given K429,200,000 and the Football Association of Zambia has been given K480,000,000. Why have these institutions been given the same amount and yet the National Sports Council of Zambia has a bigger responsibility than the Football Association of Zambia.

Secondly, on Activity 03 – Zambia Professional Boxing, last year, you had budgeted for K76 million and this year, it is K60 million. I would like to find out why the hon. Minister has reduced on this allocation, and yet this year, there are many activities that are expected to be undertaken.

Thirdly, on page 578, Programme …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hold on. Let us finish with the first three questions. Let the Minister answer.

Mr D. Mwila: Alright.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, in the first place, the National Sports Council of Zambia is a board corporate and the Football Association of Zambia is an affiliate to the National Sports Council of Zambia. Since, you have been talking about reviving football in all parts of Zambia, it is the responsibility of FAZ to ensure that it co-ordinates football activities in all parts of Zambia. Hence, it appears that the amount is more or less the same as that of the National Sports of Council of Zambia which is a board corporate. We expect them to raise money as a board corporate.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: You have not answered the question on the Zambia Professional Boxing. Why have you reduced the amount from K76 million to K60 million?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, these are grants and as such, we are just subsidising on what they raise.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr D. Mwila, do you have another question?

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 06 – Olympic Games – K50,000,000. Hon. Minister, you are aware that the Olympic Games will be held in 2008. What is that K50,000,000 for?

Mr Namulambe: The amount is meant to assist the people who will attend some preparatory meetings for the Olympic Games.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 76/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 68 − (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources − K171,096,728,631).

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I want to guide hon. Members that we give fifteen minutes for hon. Members to speak, but I am convinced that some of you are capable of making your points clearly in ten minutes. If that is done, we will have more people debate which is preferable given the number of Heads we have to clear. By the same token, I am convinced that the policy statements or your replies or summaries the of the Executive can be shortened so that we save on time.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Pande): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour and privilege to be accorded this opportunity to present a policy statement in support of the budget estimates of Head 68 – Ministry of tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

Mr Chairperson, permit me to introduce my statement with some background information on the mandate of the Ministry. The Mission of the Ministry is ‘To provide a policy framework for the management and development of tourism, heritage and natural resources and the environment in order to contribute to sustainable socio-economic development for the benefit of present and future generations’.

Mr Chairperson, as most of the hon. Members of this House may be aware, my ministry is responsible for managing two distinct sectors, namely; the tourism sector and natural resources sector. My ministry is also responsible for environment which is treated as a cross-cutting issue. Though distinct, the sectors complement each other and are mutually reinforcing. These sectors are further broken down into sub-sectors, namely; the wildlife sub-sector, tourism development sub-sector, environment sub-sector and the forestry sub-sector.

Mr Chairperson, in keeping with the Government’s overall development agenda of wealth creation and poverty reduction, my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources in this year’s Budget reflects the priority placed on programmes with greatest impact on the national economy and the livelihood of the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to highlight my ministry’s budget for this year, starting with the tourism sector. Tourism is multi-faceted in nature and, therefore, the Government has been following a collaborative and integrated approach in its development. The challenges to tourism development include, among others, poor infrastructure, inadequate marketing, limited local participation, poor skills and human resources development. These challenges are being addressed through various programmes that put the private sector and community participation at the centre.

Mr Chairperson, one of the major outstanding issues from last year in the tourism sector relates to the enactment of the Tourism Hospitality Bill that is supposed to facilitate investment into the sector by reducing the cost of doing business. This will be done through harmonising and streamlining of licenses and licensing procedures. Members of the House will recall that last year, I had alluded to the presentation of the Bill to this august House, but the Government resolved to allow for more consultations to ensure that the Bill was in harmony with other existing laws such as the Liquor Licensing Act, the Trading Act, the Zambia Development Agency Act and the Labour Laws of this country.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has, for the fifth year running, been administering the Tourism Development Credit Facility (TDCF). The credit facility is one of the tools used by the Government to empower the local people to participate in the tourism industry through provision of affordable financing. To ensure that all provinces in the country equitably access the fund, the ministry has put in place a deliberate policy aimed at building capacity in packaging of loan applications to increase the success rate. In the interest of good corporate governance, the ministry has put in place transparent systems and procedures to ensure that the fund is properly managed.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of product development and investment promotion, my ministry supported the construction of a 1.4 kilometres an all-weather gravel airstrip in Siavonga and will, this year, complete its fencing and construction of a parking bay. In addition, my ministry advanced the development of the Zambezi source and completed the rehabilitation of the Livingstone Museum. Works on the rehabilitation of the railway and Moto Moto Museums and construction of the Jeki Airstrip in the Lower Zambezi National Park into an all-weather gravel airstrip also were commenced. Further, some tourist access roads in the National Parks and the Northern Circuit Region were also attended to.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to tourism promotion and marketing, my ministry, through the Zambia National Tourist Board, continued to intensify and enhance the marketing of Zambia as a tourist destination through the ‘Visit Zambia Campaign’. Whilst the Government’s focus is on marketing Zambia as a tourist destination, the private sector complement the efforts of the Government through targeted marketing and selling of individual tourist products. The Government will continue the ‘Visit Zambia Campaign’ as a marketing tool to attract more tourists mainly through road shows and international tourism fairs in important source markets.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry, through the Zambia Wildlife Authority, will play a key role in the participation of local communities and the private sector in the management of national parks, bird sanctuaries and Game Management Areas (GMAS). Mr Chairperson, this year, the major thrust of the tourism sector will be centred on product development and investment promotion. For this reason, this year’s Budget has programmes such as the Tourism Development Credit Facility with a Budget provision of K4 billion and the development of the Northern Circuit with a provision of K1 billion. In order to enhance infrastructural development in Livingstone, Zambia’s premier tourist destination, as well as the surrounding national parks such as the Kafue and Mosi-Oa-Tunya National Parks, K63.4 billion has been allocated for this purpose in this year’s Budget.

Mr Chairperson, I should be the first one to admit that funds provided for tourism in this year’s Budget may not be as much as the ministry would have wished to have. However, I should also admit that there is no way this Budget will fund everything. My ministry and all players in tourism appreciate that the focus of this year’s Budget is on infrastructure development. In other words, tourism cannot develop without the necessary infrastructure.

Mr Chairperson, allow me at this point to move onto interventions in the forestry sub-sector. As the House may well be aware, forests are one of Zambia’s most important natural resources that contribute to the socio-economic development of the country. One of the greatest challenges to the sector is the high rates of deforestation currently estimated at about 800,000 HA per annum. Other challenges being encountered in the development of the forestry sector include poor infrastructure; inadequate transport; inadequate funding, inadequate institutional capacity; and lack of human resources development to effectively implement forestry programmes. These challenges are being addressed through the participation and concerted effort of all stakeholders.

Mr Chairperson, notwithstanding the challenges faced by the sector, forestry contribution to Gross Domestic Product (GDP) has continued to grow and is currently standing at 3.7 per cent and is projected that this will increase to 5.8 per cent in the near future through export and domestic earnings from forestry products. Furthermore, it is envisioned that the revenue generation of K4.7 billion recorded last year by the Forestry Department will increase to K5 billion this year.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has, for the third year running, been administering the Forestry Development Credit Facility. The Government will continue to capitalise this facility to enable more Zambians to access affordable loans to engage in forest-based enterprises. So far, 124 micro-, small- and medium-scale entrepreneurs have accessed loans totalling to K7.5 billion since the facility was introduced.

Mr Chairperson, in order to slow down the high rate of deforestation, my ministry undertook a nationwide exercise through the Integrated Land Use Assessment Project aimed at developing and updating forest management systems and plans to enhance sustainable management and utilisation of forest and land resources. As a way of promoting community participation in the management of forest resources, my ministry has developed Joint Forest Management Guidelines. Joint forest management is currently being piloted in three provinces, namely, Luapula; Copperbelt and Southern with a view to developing models that will be used for scaling up co-management arrangements throughout the country.

My ministry, Mr Chairperson, is mobilising every effort to ensure that deforestation is brought under control. Considering that more than 70 per cent of the Zambian population depends on good fuel for their energy, Government is concerned that if mitigating factors are not put in place the country will suffer far reaching environmental consequences. It is for this reason that the Government, through my ministry and in collaboration with other stakeholders, is working flat out to research into alternative energy sources.

My ministry is also encouraging and promoting cost-effective and efficient methods of charcoal production as one way of mitigating deforestation. Development and use of modern kilms that improve the recovery percentage of organic charcoal is also being looked into. Research to develop metal kilms is being handled by the Forestry Department in collaboration with the University of Zambia, School of Engineering. In addition, there are also efforts to come up with coal brickets by the Copperbelt Forestry Company to provide a durable and alternative energy source. Mechanisms on expansion of production, packaging and marketing are being worked out.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that my ministry has embarked on an expansion of local supply plantations and rubber plantations programme, establishing a total of 469 hectares, respectively, last year 2006. These programmes will continue this year.

Mr Chairperson, permit me, at this juncture, to turn to the environment sub-sector. The prosperity of any nation depends on how well it manages its environment and natural resources. My ministry is aware of this fact and has taken several policy measures to ensure that our environment is managed sustainably.

In this regard, the ministry prepared a National Policy on Environment (NPE), to provide a framework for managing the environment so that socio-economic development can be achieved without damage to the environment and natural resources.

One of the challenges anticipated in the implementation of this policy, is the high level of poverty among our people which forces them to utilise resources unsustainably in their quest to eke out a living. Furthermore, limited financial and material resources are also likely to affect our efforts in promoting effective environmental management and natural resources utilisation.

Mr Chairperson, in a bid to address these challenges, my ministry intends to place emphasis on raising public awareness on the importance of prudent environmental management and natural resources utilisation. Awareness creation and drawing a clear link between environmental problems being experienced are on one hand and activities that are responsible for these problems, on the other hand.

For instance, climatic change as seen by the increased occurrence of floods and droughts is largely attributed to deforestation and other forms of environmental destructions.

This year, my ministry, therefore, intends to intensify sensitisation campaigns among the people especially, as it embarks on disseminating the National Policy on Environment in all the nine provinces once it is approved.

Mr Chairperson, it is the intention of my ministry this year to forge closer ties with all stakeholders in the sector. This will not only create the necessary sense of ownership, but also bring on board the much-needed financial and material resources that will supplement Government efforts.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will, in 2007, continue with the review of legislation and policies to make them responsive to the current demands in the protection of the environment and sustainable utilisation of natural resources.

For instance, the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control Act, Cap. 204 of the Laws of Zambia, was enacted in 1990 and needs to be reviewed to make it responsive to the current challenges. Similarly, other natural resources sector Acts will require revising.

Mr Chairperson, this year, the major thrust of the environment sub-sector will be the finalisation of the National Adaptation Plan of Action (NAPA). This will outline measures to reduce our vulnerability to adverse effects of climatic change. Climatic change is no longer a science for debate as its effects are being felt globally.

The flooding experienced this year by several countries, including Zambia, is clear evidence of the effects of climatic change. We, therefore, need to educate our people, especially the local communities on local adaptation techniques. This is not an issue we can afford to ignore as it has the potential to reverse all our efforts in poverty reduction.

As environment is a cross-cutting issue and any impact on it has wider ramifications beyond national jurisdiction, collaboration with the International Community and other co-perating partners in addressing these environmental problems is cardinal. In this regard, my ministry will continue implementing projects and programmes addressing various environmental challenges with the support of co-operating partners and other stakeholders.

In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, it is my hope that the foregoing background information has provided the necessary foundation to better appreciate the diversity of the mandate of the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, as we debate the Budget Estimates for Head 68 for which I seek your support, hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minster for North-Western Province (Mr Chipungu): Mr Chairperson, I strongly support the Vote for Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. This ministry has potential to significantly contribute to the economic development of this nation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, in this year’s Budget, the tourism sector has recorded positive growth with an increase in investment and tourist arrivals. The increase that we have seen in Budget speaks volumes of the development that is taking place in the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to pay special tribute to Hon. Pande and his two Deputy Ministers for the good job they are doing in this ministry. I have all the confidence that the three will move the ministry forward.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to comment on the operations of ZAWA and Community Resource Boards (CRBs). Hon. Members of Parliament will agree with me that the CRBs are operating in most of the districts in the country.

Mr Chairperson, let me start by commenting on the appointment of the Director-General, Dr Sawana. I am happy that this gentleman has been finally appointed to run ZAWA. It is important to appoint the right people with the right qualifications to run institutions such as this one. Dr Sawana got frustrated and was neglected at one time, but he is the right person to run ZAWA.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I am asking Dr Sawana to do all his best to ensure that ZAWA runs effectively and efficiently and reduce poaching in the country. ZAWA is a very viable institution which is capable of bringing development and revenue to the nation. ZAWA is one of the few Government institutions which is properly run and capable of sustaining itself. As big as it, ZAWA is almost in all the provinces and districts of this country. It contributes financial resources to our communities through CRBs.

Mr Chairperson, the money, through the CRBs, is contributing greatly towards the provision of social services in this nation. For instance, construction and renovations of schools, rural health centres, roads and purchase of hammer mills is undertaaken in constituencies. CRBs also help with traditional ceremonies and the general up keep of our chiefs by providing financial resources.

Mr Chairperson, some CRBs have a lot of money, especially where they are run effectively and compete favourably with other institutions. My appeal to these CRBs therefore, is that they should elect good leaders to run institutions and contribute to the Government efforts in provision of social services to our people.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon. Members to take special interest in these CRBs. You will be amazed at how much money is generated through the CRBs and take interest in the activities that are going on in those respective constituencies.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I commend you for being brief.

Mr Simama (Kalulushi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this chance to contribute to this Vote on the Floor of the House. I am supporting the Vote and would like to say a few things.

Sir, this department is one of the most neglected departments by the Government. The foresters are not being treated well. They are not recognised. Those who are in districts do not have vehicles. How do you expect them to patrol and do the early banning in the bush?

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Zambia Forestry and Forestry Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO), it used to have about 50,000 hectares of plantations of which 40 per cent used to be pine and 10 per cent eucalyptus. However, they have been harvesting and selling trees, but for the past ten years, there has not been any replanting. This means that we are behind by ten years. You can see that the trees along Ndola/Kitwe Road are available, but if you go inside, you will see that all the trees have been cut.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simama: You have to understand that a tree takes about thirty five years to grow. If we are behind by ten years, it would mean that at one time, we will have no trees for sawing.

Sir, as regards saw milling, most of the saw mills on the Copperbelt are homemade. They do not have standard dimensions. They cut trees using a sickle saw blade which will affect the growth of the tree. The tree will take five years to grow and this will cause you to get a recovery of 20 to 30 per cent of the trees and you throw away the rest. This is critical. The ministry should look into this and bring in new sawing machineries like band saws and not the circular saws.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the selling of trees in Sesheke. The Forestry Department is selling, but there is no control. The Forestry Department does not have transport to go to the bush to monitor the selling. Somebody would be in the office and sell the trees. After selling them, he will allow the licensee to go in the bush and cut the trees. You do not know how much the man is going to cut. The telecopsus golasis and bakiya brenjuga that we have in the bush are all gone.

Sir, with regard to the research system in the department, Machile used to be a very important research for teak in the whole Central Africa. They used to consult from that research. However, nowadays, that research is no longer there. Instead of us building on whatever we have, we are destroying them. We used to have very good houses at this Teak Research Centre, but all the iron sheets and houses have been vandalised.

Mr Chairperson, the Headquarters Research Centre that we have in Kitwe used to be a biggest research centre in Central Africa. People used to go to this department for consultations. The Herbarium Department dealt with the research on medicines of trees. This is where it was discovered that the Acacia Abbreviators could cure some diseases. However, nowadays there is completely nothing happening in the Herbarium Department.

Sir, there is also the civil culture operations in ZAFFICO. Nowadays, the trees have not been pruned. They have a lot knots. This kind of timber cannot be sold on the international market. Our timber cannot compete. It is only the Malawian and Zimbabwean timber can compete. However, when you take the Zambian timber on the international market, it would not sale because the trees used are juvenile. All the big trees are gone. It is only in Mukutuma area where you can find big trees which are good for sawing.

With regard to protection, what used to happen that time when it was industrial plantations, we used to have a Fire Department which used to control the fires. This department had a lot of vehicles, graders and all the necessary fire fighting facilities to control fires in the bush or plantations. However, nowadays, there is completely nothing. It is dead. We need to look into these things.

Mr Chairperson, with the harvesting, if you go to Finland where I stayed for about five years, for a person to go in the bush to cut trees, he should be a trained logger.  However, in Zambia, anybody can walk into the bush with an axe to cut the trees. You do not even know the required height of a tree which is to be cut. We need to encourage the small Saw Millers on the Copperbelt to employ foresters. When most of foresters graduate, they do not have anywhere to go. We have allowed these people to own sawmills and do whatever they can on the sawmills. They do not even know what should be done.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simama: Sir, with regard to deforestation, the hon. Minister said it is about 800,000 hectares per year which is being deforested. Long time ago, the standard used to be about 300,000, but now there is a big margin.

As regards the demarcations, the area for the Forestry Department has been demarcated. 80 per cent has gone to agriculture. It is not that deforestation is done by the people who are doing the charcoal burning; it is also the Local Government. Most of the areas, for example, where SOS is when entering Lusaka, used to belong to a Forestry Department area, but now it has been given to SOS. However, we are forgetting that forestry is a very important sector in the sense that all of us here are breathing air which is coming from the forest. The forest is taking in carbon dioxide and giving us air which we all need, but we always come here to talk about mining, agriculture and so on, and forget about forestry which is the most important thing.

Mr Chairperson, forestry is one sector which, if allowed to be on its own, would sustain itself. It is able to make enough money to sustain itself. That is why we are asking that the Forestry Commissioner be reinstated. Immediately we do this, we will not need to fund this department from the coffers of the Government. The K100 million given to the Implementation of the Forestry Commissioner is not enough. I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to get some money from somewhere for the Forestry Commissioner. I will give you one good example how this Forestry Department can make money.

There is carbon trading which is coming up now. The Forestry Department sets aside a certain area and asks the people to buy some projects. There are many companies in Australia, Japan and the European Union who are willing to buy a certain area and grow trees. In Australia right now, they have developed trees which can grow big within fifteen years. You can buy those and plant them, and ask the companies which are emitting gasses in the air to buy a certain area. They will then go back to their countries to say they have an area which they are supporting. Then they will be allowed to emit a certain amount of pollution in the area. This can also be applied within Zambia. We can go to places such as Konkola Copper Mine and ask them whether they can buy the projects from the Forestry Department. We should also tell them that with the amount of gasses they are emitting in the air, the only way to get rid of it is for them to buy projects from Forestry Department and run some plantations. This is so that these plantations can be absorbing the emissions that they are emitting in the air.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to make a brief contribution on the Vote on the Floor.

Sir, firstly, I wish to say that the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is one of the most experienced Ministers this Government has. I have unreserved belief and trust that what I am going to say will be for the benefit of the ministry and the people of Zambia.

Firstly, the hon. Minister has been in this House for the 5 years. The people of Zambia living along the rivers have been moldy eaten by crocodiles. Nobody has compensated them. It is not their fault that they have to live along the banks of the rivers, but it is the fault of survival. They have lived by the banks of the Zambezi and Luapula rivers and along Lake Kariba and anywhere else. The hon. Minister should take heed of this. The only time I remember, as a child, crocodiles being cropped was in 1961. It was done by an American company. Since then, there crocodiles have not been cropped. Crocodiles have made the traditional human life difficult in areas such as Sinazongwe where we have a big population of people living along the bank of the river. I appeal to the hon. Minister to, please, come with a Bill to this House so that those who are unfortunate enough to be eaten by crocodiles are compensated. This is in the interest of the poor people of Zambia. I wish to register this point.

Secondly, on the issue of the Tourism Fund, I do not find it prudent that because Mr X is a politician and has a high degree of business acumen to manage tourists or a small corporate business, he should be denied access to this fund. I find it quite in bad taste to segregate a politician. Let a politician also have access to this fund because many of us who are gathered in this House and elsewhere come from the corporate world. There is no justification in saying that because Muyanda is a politician, he does not deserve access the fund. No. We are also contributing to the national development of this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Here is a salient example. If we have a prosperous Deputy Minister, we should congratulate that Minister. An example is in the Southern Province where one of the best lodges is being managed the hon. Deputy Minister. Is he not capable enough to borrow more so that he can even build a hotel? He is because he has the mental capacity, knowledge and skill. He is a shining example. We have Kozo Lodge in the Southern Province. Time is not with us. I always debate up to the point.

In Sinazongwe, we have Nchete Island. Nchete Island is approximately 30 square kilometres. It is a big island near Zimbabwe. I would like the hon. Minister to know that this island is not even managed by ZAWA. They do not even have a single boat to patrol. Poaching is going on and ZAWA officials have time and again complained. Why is the ministry not helping ZAWA with transport to control poaching on the island? We need these sanctuaries to be well managed. You have the capacity, hon. Minister. I have unreserved trust in you …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was supporting the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources without any reservation and indeed vehemently.

Mr Chairperson, let me just address the point of a politician qualifying for a loan. The principle or conventional method used for a person to qualify for a loan is by applying for a loan with adequate collateral security. That is very basic, but merely to say that one does not qualify for a loan because one is a politician is, in itself, a breach of a human right. It is a human right to access this fund because we are also citizens of the Republic of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Furthermore, the vital point is to look at some of the politicians who were able to genuinely borrow. We are talking here about impostors and dishonest leaders, but genuine or credible leaders like us gathered here elsewhere. As long as they provide security under the conventional or standard method of procuring a loan, please, they should be considered. I know I am talking to a professional anchor. He understands and I am sure the hon. Minister will take heed and take it up from this point. I think this point is clear.

Let me once again request the hon. Minister to think of the logging in the Western Province. I come from an industrial society. I still do not find it prudent that the high grade of wood from the Western Province which is used for making AK47 guns should be logged. Did you know that the wood from the Western Province is the best wood for manufacturing firearm butts? If you are not aware, I am telling you, hon. Members, because I have found Zambian timber to be the best in as far as Russia is concerned with regard to the production of Allan Karachenkov, the most deadly weapon in the world. Why can they not manufacture those weapons here? Encourage them to manufacture and export so that Zambia benefits through creation of employment. Let us abandon the culture of letting raw materials leave this country in crude form. Let us encourage the investors that are coming here in good faith to setup small-scale industries to produce finished products. We should not tolerate buying back our raw materials in finished form. Let us find a strategy that will attract investors.

Mr Chairperson, roads in the Western Province are being damaged at the cost of the tax-payers money. That can be controlled. This is a listening Government. I am sure you will heed my advice which is given in good faith. I was also emphasising a point on the importance of roads into the parks. The area from Batoka to Sinazongwe is a holiday destination. Nchete Island is on the Internet, on the international circuit of tourism. I get shocked that even in this year’s Budget, there is no allocation for the road in that area. I am glad that the Hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is here. With these heavy rains we had, the road is nearly finished and is left in a state of disrepair, but where the road ends, is a tourist destination. Forget about Maamba Coal Mine. I remember when we had a seminar in the amphitheatre, the yardstick measure for budgeting or providing funds for roads was based on the economic importance of the rood. Why is the Maamba Road neglected and yet that is an area where you have a huge influx of tourists who are coming to Sinazongwe on the water boats. If you have heard of water boats where people have a beautiful stay on a ship for hours with good facilities, drinks and luxury, it is in Sinazongwe on the Lake Kariba. The roads that lead to where our money is generated from should be addressed.

I am appealing to the hon. Minister Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to confer with his colleagues by applying for emergency funds. That is the message. Invoke the emergency fund process so that the Batoka/Maamba Road is attended to. It is in such a state of disrepair that it is dangerous and it would be sad if one of these days we heard that the road has killed so many tourists. It will be a dent on the fight and advertisement of tourism promoted in the country. As a senior politician and hon. Member of this House, I believe I have delivered my three major points.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Sinyinda (Senanga): Mr Chairperson, I would like to also support this Vote. Firstly, I would like to thank the MMD Government for especially promoting traditional ceremonies, in particular, the famous Kuomboka Ceremony which will take place in Mongu tomorrow. I would like to appeal to those of you in this House who can to go and see the spectacle of Kuomboka.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that the Government is earmarking the Koumboka Ceremony as an international heritage site. For this, I say congratulations to the MMD Government.

Hon. V.  Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyinda: I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to vigorously promote tourism in the Western Province. Some of you may not know that the Western Province is such a good tourist destination. For example, I am aware that some of my cousins from the Southern Province have never even seen the Kalahari sands. It would be a good idea if they went there just to see the Kalahari sands. They are a tourist attraction. In the Western Province, we have the beautiful Sioma Falls which is just next to the Victoria Falls as far as beauty is concerned. We also have the Liuwa National Park, which is very beautiful and has unique animals. There is also the Sioma Ngwezi Park that can be visited by tourists.

I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to ensue that the Western Province is adequately marketed on the map of Zambia as a tourist destination.

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Chairperson, are the hon. Members from the Western Province in order to leave Parliament business in the hands of a junior hon. Member and rush to the Kuomboka Ceremony? I need your serious ruling, Sir.


Mr Deputy Chairperson: This point of order makes it difficult for the Chair to make any ruling. He is adequately representing them.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Sinyinda: Thank you, Sir, for that protection.

I wanted to also talk about the forests in the Western Province. Like my cousin mentioned, we have some unique timber in the province. I know that some of the trees that we have in the Western Province are not found anywhere else in the world. For example, I do not know what I would call it in English, but there is a tree which is called Muzauli, in the local language, that is unique. I think that my cousin was right and I would like to appeal to the Zambian Government to see to it that an investor is brought to the Western Province so that finished goods can be made from that unique timber. At the moment, our trees are being depleted. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to ensure that the cutting down of trees in the Western Province is controlled. The people there are not getting anything from the trees that they have looked after for so many years. Some of the trees there take almost 100 years to grow. With these few words, I stand to support the Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Deputy Chairperson: That was very brief indeed. This is the brevity we need.

Mrs Phiri (Luanshya): I am thankful for this opportunity to debate on a very important industry in this country. Having said so, I wish to support this budget. In supporting the budget, I wish to point out the following:

(i) Tourism

I would like to appreciate that in the last 5-6 years, I have seen growth in this industry. It is one industry in which most women easily excel. When I look at the facilities of the loans that this ministry is giving, I would like to say that it is gender friendly. This is an industry the can empower women so easily. It is easy to run a lodge.

I would like appeal to the ministry that whenever a woman applies for a license to run a lodge, they should be gender sensitive and give her priority. It is a well-known fact that when you empower one woman, you have empowered 700 families.

Mr Chairman, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is a very important institution in the Government. As such, the Government has placed tourism as number two priority in the economic sector after agriculture, but it is disheartening to see the allocation to the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources in that it does not place this sector in a second position in terms of the industrial economy of this country. In this regard, more resources are required for this ministry. Otherwise, it is a mockery to place it as a second priority sector.

Mr Chairman, let me take you back a bit. The Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is an industry in which a woman can easily access and run an industry. The economy of the nation can only grow when women are empowered. Since they are the backbone of any economic growth, if they are not empowered, then there will be no development. Therefore, I would urge the hon. Minister to consider women more seriously.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Mr Chairman, on the issue of environment, I would have liked to see all the line ministries have an allocation. Why do I say so? I can see that just one ministry is being overloaded and this is the Environmental Department.

Mr Chairman, on the Ministry of Health’s allocation, I did not see anything on environment, and yet there are so many things that happen in the Ministry of Health. When you look at the way they dispose the waste in hospitals or clinics, especially at the maternity wing, the incinerators are sometimes haphazardly allocated. In Chingola, for example, there is one incinerator that is right in the middle of the community and it is short. Therefore, if they were given resources, as a Ministry of Health, they would use it effectively. In this regard, I would urge the hon. Minister responsible to do something about that.

Today, environment being a cross cutting issue, the whole world is concerned about it. Let us not lag behind because I have seen that, in this nation, we have a tendency of developing documents that we put on our shelves and are later picked by other countries that use them the same way we should have used those plans. The time to put measures in place is now. If the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning brought a budget to support environment, hon. Chair, I would like to assure the hon. Minister that I would be one of those to support it.

The other thing that I would like to see is to leave the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) to work independently. Just as much as we have said that we need political will on certain projects in the nation or on issues that politicians should get involved, I would want to see this particular Government will leave the ECZ alone. Look at the pollution that happened on the Copperbelt. They were interviewed …


Mrs Phiri: I hope I am protected by the Chair.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are protected. Continue!

Mrs Phiri: Hon. Chair, this is a very important point that I would like to make in the House. The ECZ came to the Copperbelt to inspect the pollution at Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), but to date no report has been produced to inform us of their findings. If you read the newspapers today, you will see that they have written a report to stop an industry from operating or putting up other silos or whatever they want to put up in the middle of the town, and the Government would stop them.

So, I would love to see that these departments are left alone to work independently so that if you look at the issue that we are talking about on the Copperbelt, - I leave in a mining area, Luanshya and Chingola, - the pollution that was there in the river, Kafue River and the amount of silt in that river, you cannot believe and you cannot even eat the Cassava that we are popularising as a second staple food in this country. People cannot eat either cassava or maize because of too much pollution. The ECZ have also advised against eating the fish that comes from the Kafue River on the Copperbelt. I would urge this particular ministry to look into this matter very seriously.

On environment and development, while we are in a hurry to develop, let us also support environmentally sustainable development.

Mr Chairman, deforestation is a very big threat in this country. One of the previous hon. Members debated so well on this issue that I am left without words. However, let me say that the ministry must re-introduce ba Kapenda mabula. Balebomba bwino. Forest Rangers really put up a very good fight. However, what have you done today? You have sidelined them, fired them and repatriated them to their villages. Those who are there are just living like any other person who does not know what is going on. I would therefore, urge the ministry in charge to start looking for alternatives for charcoal.

The other thing, hon. Chair, that I would like to emphasise as I wind up is that there is a need for our District Forestry Officers to be motivated. As you know in the districts, we have District Forestry Officers who wake up at 0600 or 0700 in the morning and get into the offices and walk to the forestry to meet the timber dealers.

Mr Chairman, these officers have to walk to these sites while the people who are dealers in timber will go their cycling. Now you can imagine, if this officer is only getting K500,000, do you not think that he cannot be given side pocket money? We have seen these things. In this vote, I have not seen their allocation. Maybe, experts in accounts will tell me that they have seen an allocation to the District Forestry Officers.

Mr Chairperson, I would have loved to see that these officers were empowered and trained as they go into the forest.

Mr Chairperso, I do not know whether as we sit here, we cannot dramatise that these officers are bribed. The truth of the matter is that these people do not have adequate means to survive. They walk these long distances to get to that place while charcoal burners cycle. In other words, it is possible for the District Forestry Officers to be bribed by these charcoal burners who have a lot of money since they know that these are not being empowered. In such a case, who are you going to blame? Therefore, I would say that I support this Vote whole-heartedly. I would love that something be done because it is a very big industry. God has given us resources and these resources can make this country grow. We have talked so much about mining. However, we ought to look at this industry of tourism as it is a very big industry which can change the face of this country.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Pande:  Mr Chairperson, I stand very humbled and excited to see the support which has been given to the ministry. Hon. Chipungu raised an issue which is very important which I would like all hon. Members to take note of particularly those who are in the areas where they have Community Resource Boards (CRBs). I would urge all hon. Members to take a keen interest in following up the activities of the CRBs as substantial amounts of money are given to them.

Hon. Simama, I was quite encouraged by your issues on forestry particularly ZAFFCO. Yes, ndeed, some years back, here was no tree planting and no fire guards. However since the privatisation of ZAFFICO, these things have since changed and they have had a programme of planting about five hundred hectares of trees per year.

Hon. Simama also argued that the K100 million provided in this Budget is not enough for establishing of a commission. I would like to clarify that the funds are not for the establishment of a commission, but for consultation on the matter and to prepare Members so that they are aware of the establishment of the Act. It has been nine years since the issue came up, hence we need to consult on the need for its re-establishment.

On the issue of lack of control, admittedly, the manpower on the ground is not enough. However, as a Government, we are looking at how we can address that issue.

We have also realised that we need to carry out research as it is very important particularly in the forestry industry. If you check in the Yellow Book, we have made a provision of K118.5 million for the research station to be rehabilitated at Mwekera.

On the issue of Carbon Trading, my ministry is this year mainstreaming the Kyoto Protocol and we will continue with a clean development management. We are aware that this is an area which we should concentrate on as quickly as possible particularly in this year’s Budget.

Mr Chairman, I may not allude to all the speakers, but generally I would say all the points which were raised were very important and we have taken note of them.

 I feel humbled by the kind words Hon. Muyanda expressed about my Ministry and I in particular. I would like to state that there was an inspection team, in which my ministry was represented, from the Road Development Agency and it went as far as the Batoka and assessed at the road. This shows that the Government knows what is there and it is a road the Government and the Ministry of Works and Supply has in mind.

The Western Province has these trees which can attract investors to come and make gun parts. My advice would be that youths should make use of the Youth Development Fund. I would urge Members of Parliament of that area to encourage the youths to come up with proposals so that they could produce a finished product and export instead of inviting investors from outside the country.

Hon. Jean Phiri, we also appreciate, as a Ministry, your words of encouragement.  Particularly, you indicated that you would love to see that every line ministry has an allocation regarding environment. I am sure that as time goes on, we will be taking that into consideration.

Mr Chairperson, you indicated that we should be brief and I therefore thank the hon. Members for the support. The Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is open to Members of Parliament for their proposals or anything they want. They should feel free to come to our Ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairman, Page 551, Programme 7, Activity 1 – Services to Minister, K710,932,774 and 2 – Services to the Permanent Secretary, K149,315,395. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there is a huge difference in terms of Budget allocation between Services to the Minister and to the Permanent Secretary considering that the Permanent Secretary has more work to do than the hon. Minister in terms of the movements.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairman, Page 551, Programme 7, Activity 1– Service to Minister K710,932,774 and 2 – Services to the Permanent Secretary K149,315,395, the difference is that while there is only one Permanent Secretary in the ministry, there are three Ministers, including the Deputy Ministers.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 68/02 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Forestry Department – K15, 177,727,813).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I have two questions on this vote. The first is on page 556 Programme 7, Activity 1 – Zambia Forest Action Programme – K80,000,000. I seek clarification on the reduction from K450,000,000 to K80,000,000. What necessitated such a huge decrease on the Forest Action Programme?

Secondly, Sir, under Programme 7 – Forestry Protection and Management Activity, 1 – Launch of National Tree Planting Ceremony – K5,160,048. I would like clarification on why there is a reduction of more than K50 million to the extent that there is only K5 million allocated to it.

Would the hon. Minister be kind enough to inform this House when he intends to involve hon. Members of Parliament in tree planting?

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, the first one was a project and it is phasing out. Then the one about the Tree Planting has been decentralised to the provinces.

Mr Lubinda: Involvement of Members of Parliament.

Mr Pande: With regard to Members of Parliament getting involved, yes, we have planned that Members of Parliament will be invited to participate in the next Tree Planting Exercise. Those who will be in their constituencies will be invited in their respective constituencies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nyirenda (Kamfinsa): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-head 3, Programme, 7, Activity 03 – Forestry Certification Training Course – K24,833,800. Could the hon. Minister inform this House why Mwekera Forestry College is not upgraded and improved?

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, this training is not under Mwekera. It is under the department of Forestry for the members of staff in the Department of Forestry. We are yet to reach the Mwekera Unit.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/03 – (Ministry of Environment Tourism and Natural Resources – Zambia Forestry College – K2,351,879,751).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Sub-head 3, Programme 7, Activities 02 – Rehabilitation of Road Network – K15,000,000, 03 – Rehabilitation of Staff Houses and Administration Block – K59,000,000 and 04 – Rehabilitation of Classrooms and Hostels – K77,000,000.

I would like to start with Activity 02 – Rehabilitation of Roads – where there is an allocation of K15,000,000. I would like to find out which road can be rehabilitated with that amount of money.

Secondly, Activity 03 – Rehabilitation of Staff Houses and Administration Block has been allocated K59,000,000 and Activity 04, Rehabilitation of Classrooms and Hostels has been allocated K77,000,000. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether those are continuous projects because there was an allocation in last year’s budget.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, these are roads found within the college area including the houses for the teachers. With regard to the other two Activities, they are a continuation from last year which involves the rehabilitation of classrooms as well as hostels.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/04 – (Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources – Planning and Information Department – K2,735,007,663).

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, this is actually – I wish the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing could help me hold the microphone.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you help him, officers?

Mrs Masebo held the microphone for Hon. Dr Scott.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, the Chair will not accept the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to hold the microphone.


The Deputy Chairperson: Could it be done by somebody else?


Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Sub-head 2, Programme 12, Activity 02 – Production of Brochures and Newsletters – K11,000,000.

Could the hon. Minister tell us what this K11,000,000 is for considering that his ministry has not even issued a Press Release clarifying why he secretly over turned the Environmental Council of Zambia’s decision to refuse to give the National Milling a permit to continue expanding their industrial plant …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You have had your question, Dr Scott. You are clever because you want to bring in something to debate. Hon. Minister can you answer that question.

Mr Pande: Sir, this is for the production of Newsletters for the Department of Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/05 – (Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources – Tourism Development Department – K74,675,999,525).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, may I have clarifications on Sub-head 2, Programme 7, Activity 04 – Visit Zambia 2005 Campaign – K4,994,800.

The Visit Zambia Campaign is an on-going programme as we were informed earlier by the hon. Minister. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister, how he expects to engage in the Visit Zambia Campaign when he has allowed the Government to reduce the allocation from K2,000,000,000 to K4,994,800. What kind of campaign is he going to mount to attract tourists to come to Zambia when he has only K4,994,800?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The question is understood.

Mr Lubinda: May I also have clarification on Sub-head 2, Programme 12, Activity 02 – Tourism Promotion and Marketing – K500,000,000. I wonder whether the hon. Minister is expected to market Zambia using bicycles throughout the world when there is a reduction from K4,765,300,000 to only K500,000,000. How does the hon. Minister expect to market tourism?

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, that K4,000,000 is for the Livingstone areas and the K500,000,000 –  most hon. Members of Parliament have been asking about the impact of the Visit Zambia Campaign since its inception and we have not been able to give the exact impact. Therefore, we are having a mid-year review so that we can disintegrate from the other visitors. After that, then we will continue. That is why, we have got K500 million for this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Page 167 - Sub-head 7 – Activity 01 – Procurement of Consultancy Service for Casinos.  Last year, we had K48 million and this year, nothing has been allocated. I wonder whether this consultancy service has been done away with.

The second one is on Activity 02 – Inspection and Monitoring where we had K5,080,000 last year and this year we have K200,860,000. What associated this increment?

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, yes indeed, you only do consultancy once and the consultancy activity was finalised last year. After the consultancy has been done, we need to inspect and therefore, we now need to be in full swing to inspect these facilities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Page 568 - Sub-head 09, Activity 02 – Northern-Luapula Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee and District Development Co-ordinating Committee because there is no allocation. On Activity – 5 – Northern Circuit (Northern and Luapula Province), which is the most pronounced sector of today in tourism promotion, I cannot see any allocation there. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if this is now overdue that we cannot resume funding it.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that we have made a provision of K1 billion for the Northern Circuit, which includes Luapula.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 68/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/06 – Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – Environment and Natural Resources Department – K35,462,503,172).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Page 571 – Sub-head 8 - Activity 06 – Mainstreaming of Kyoto protocol – K347,195,198. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the mainstreaming of the Kyoto Protocol will this year also lead to Zambia trading off its pollution rights.

Mr Pande: Mr Chairperson, the mainstreaming of the Kyoto Protocol into the national policy and legislation framework is what we are going to do this year. There will be an open forum to the general public which will include you, hon. Members, NGOs and other investors for bringing up proposals for consideration for the CDM process, which include projects on carbon trading.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 68/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K809,606,035,597).{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to deliver a statement of the estimates of expenditure for my ministry for the period 1st January to 31st December, 2007. The following are the concerns of my ministry.

National Security

Mr Chairman, I wish to state that our Defence Force shall always seek to uphold national security. In this regard, national security shall strive to embrace efforts to meet the political, economic, social, military and environmental rights and needs of the Zambian people and through these efforts to promote and maintain regional security. The Defence Force shall perform its functions and exercise its powers under the direction of the Government and in accordance with the constitution and any other laws.

Role of the Ministry of Defence

Mr Chairperson, the post-cold war scenario is still characterised by instability and uncertainty. Although there is relative peace, there are risks of armed conflicts and hostilities in some parts of the world. The international relations are fluid and characterised by both co-operation and competition in the political, military, security, economic, environmental, religious and cultural areas.

Sir, it is in this light that the role of the Ministry of Defence in the nation must be seen. The Ministry of Defence is charged with the critical responsibility of protecting and defending the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Zambia for the sole purpose of ensuring that the country, its citizens and residents are safeguarded from internal and external aggression. The ministry is responsible for the Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force, Zambia National Service, Zambia Combined Cadet Force, Foreign Nationalist Organisations, Home Guard and War Graves and Memorials.

Mr Chairman, to maintain this military portfolio function is very expensive and requires a constant cash flow to sustain their operations. As you may be aware, Sir, the Ministry of Defence is not donor supported, but largely depends on domestic funding and the goodwill of this Government and its leaders.

Budgetary Allocation for 2007

Mr Chairperson, there have been some calls in certain circles for the nation to reduce the Ministry of Defence’s budget. Indeed, in relation to other ministries, the budgetary allocation to my ministry appears to be huge. As a matter of fact, over the past four years, my ministry has been among the top four ministries with the highest budgetary allocation.

Mr Chairperson, at face value, the criticism regarding the huge allocation to my ministry might appear justifiable. It is important to state that we are enjoying prevailing peace in this country because we know that our security is guaranteed as we have a credible Defence Force. In fact, one my draw an analogy between having a credible Defence Force and taking out an insurance policy to cover risks. We must always look at Defence Force like an insurance policy, which comes in handy on a rainy day. But this form of insurance which is in the form of our Defence Force is very expensive to maintain because it needs food, clothing, decent accommodation for personnel, new equipment, maintenance of existing equipment and infrastructure and other things. All these things require massive injection of funds every year. We, however, realise that the capacity of our national resource envelope to meet all our requirements is severely limited.

Mr Chairperson that is why we request for the barest minimum financial requirements for us to carry out our mandate. Let us remember that our Defence Force can only look after the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the nation to the level of funding that the State can allocate.

The Defence Force will always require funding whether during peace time or during hostilities. This is the stark reality that we must learn to live with. This year’s Budget allocation, like the previous ones, will not adequately address the concerns of the Ministry, but, as the Government, we remain committed to work on all matters affecting the military establishment, even with these scarce resources.

Personal Emoluments

You will note that over 75 per cent of our budget has gone to Personal Emoluments. This figure has taken into account the increased emoluments, following the 13 per cent salary increment awarded to the Public Service Employees, including Defence personnel, last year. This has resulted into an upward adjustment in the personal emolument provision in the 2007 Budget.

Military Operations

Military operations are a major core function of the Defence Force. It involves troop deployment, maintenance of security along the borders, guarding the air space and strategic national installations. This year’s Budget allocation on operations falls short of the demand of the ministry. However, the ministry will endeavor to perform its functions within the eager resources available.

Recurrent Departmental Charges

While the overall picture shows that the budget for the ministry has increased by 22 per cent, from K659.3 billion in 2006 to K 809.6 billion in 2007, in real terms, there has been no increase in the Recurrent Departmental Charges allocation. This is because much of this increase in the budget has gone to cover the increase in Personal Emoluments allocation as alluded to earlier on. Because of this, it will be difficult to effectively and efficiently run the ministry and other institutions under it.

Procurement and Supplies of Goods and Services

The procurement of food staffs for the Zambia Army, Zambia Air Force and the Zambia National Service is done centrally at the Ministry Headquarters. As a result, the ministry is able to facilitate effective and efficient procurement and distribution of food rations for the Defence wings. Currently, the monthly bill for food rations is K5.5 billion. The hon Members may wish to know that the budget provision for 2006 under this budget line was only K 4.7 billion as against K70 billion actual expenditure as at 31st December, 2006.This year, K48.9 billion has been allocated to procurement of food rations as against the projected expenditure of K 66 billion . However, this amount only covers the requirement for about nine months consumption. This means that, for the last quarter of the year, we shall have problems administering this area.

Capital Projects

The Government is fully aware of lack of adequate and proper accommodation for our Defence personnel. The majority of our soldiers are residing in non-designated areas due to a shortage of accommodation in military cantonments. Some of the stalled Housing Projects such as Twin Palm, L85 and Chamba Valley Housing Complexes as well as rehabilitation of the dilapidated housing units in services which we had intended to restart will remain stalled due to lack of adequate capital funding since an amount of only K9.1 billion has been provided for capital projects.

Defence Co-operation with Neighbouring States

The Government, through the Ministry of Defence, will continue to resolve common border problems with neighbouring countries through bilateral means. Last year, the budget line for this purpose was K 848 million. This year, there is an appreciable increase in this provision. An amount of K 3.17 billion has been budgeted for attendance and hosting of the Joint Permanent Commissions on Defence and Security.

Peace-Keeping Operations and Observer Missions

Armed conflicts in the different parts of the world have assumed a different character. The majority of armed conflicts are intra-State rather that inter-State. These are caused by ethnic, religious and cultural differences. In some instances, they have led to disintegration of States. These conflicts are causing regional and international concerns. In this connection, the United Nations has recognised the great achievements the Zambia Defence Forces has made in peace-keeping operations and observer missions.

Zambia’s participation in peace-keeping operations has helped expose some of our military personnel to international peace-keeping considering that the country has never been at war. This, in turn, has enhanced the soldiers’ experience, which is invaluable to this ministry’s role of defending the country. Above all, it brings a sense of pride to the country and to our soldiers who participate in these missions. 

The United Nations and the African Union provide funds for participating in peace-keeping missions. Our military personnel will continue to participate in these operations as they have proved to be a disciplined and reliable force wherever they have been deployed abroad. As part of the global village, we have an obligation to assist war-torn countries within and outside the continent to resolve their differences and conflicts.


New sources of tension and potential conflicts have emerged in the world today as a result of the struggles over resources, the majority of which are dwindling. These resources are land, minerals, food and water, among others.

In order for the Zambia Defence Force personnel to be in a state of preparedness all the time as well as fully participate in peace-keeping missions and indeed, in internal operations, there is need for a well-organised training programme. The Defence Force personnel need regular training in military and technical fields in order to equip them with various skills necessary for exemplary Defence Force. The hon. Members will note that the provision for training of our Defence Force personnel in this year’s Budget is still negligible. This is despite the fact that in the 2006 Budget, there was no provision for training.


The Defence Force shall ensure that equitable employment opportunities continue to exist for all the citizens, regardless of gender, race, and ethnic group, place of original, religion or culture and will strictly enforce the policy of ‘Zero Harassment” in places of work.

The Force has, over the years, experienced a drop in manpower levels due to retirements and deaths. In 2005, the Zambia Army carried out recruitments in all the Districts for both officers and soldiers in order to meet the manpower shortfall. Last year, we had intended to carry out recruitment in all the three Defence wings, but owing to a limited budgetary allocation, it could not be done. We had intended to undertake a massive recruitment in all the three Defence wings this year, but again, owing to the limited budgetary allocation, it has fallen through. When financial resources are available, it is the wish of the Government to continue carrying out regular recruitment programmes in the Defence wings so that manpower levels are maintained.

Gender Advocacy

The Ministry of Defence is committed to the promotion of gender equality and equity among defence personnel. Some amount of money has been allocated to sensitise senior service personnel on gender in the work place and the importance of women’s participation in decision-making.

Food Production

My ministry, through the Zambia National Service Land Development Branch, has continued to contribute to the improvement of food production and security. We aim at increasingly contributing to the attainment of the national food security.

Additionally, the Zambia National Service Land Development Branch is involved in road repair and rehabilitation. Although not adequate, an amount of K 1.517 billion has been provided for this unit. This is an increase of 36 per cent from the provision in last year’s budget, which was K1.107 billion.

Mr Chairman, although the overall picture shows that the budgetary allocation to my ministry has gone up by 22 per cent, from K659.2 billion in 2006 to K809.6  this year, in real terms, there has been no positive impact. The allocation falls far short of adequately covering our needs. The drop in the allocation of the RDCs will especially hit us hard.

Despite the foreseen challenges in our proposed budget, I call upon the hon. Members of this House to support my ministry’s Budget Estimates for 2007 as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate on this very important Vote.

Sir, realising that I have only got 15 minutes, I will go through the whole vote, but I will restrict myself to a few topics, which I would like the hon. Minister and the House to reflect on.

Sir, all over the world, the military is a fine and noble profession. In the United Kingdom, for centuries, the royal family has committed their male members to serve in active combat. Only recently, Prince Harry, son of Prince Charles, has been committed to command an armoured troop in Basra, Iraq. In the United States of America, up until the reign of Bill Clinton, Presidential aspirants had to be tested. They needed to have served in the Second World War and the Vietnam War, if they had to qualify for presidency in the United States of America.

In present days, the land of Kamikaze in Japan and Home of General Yamamoto Yamashita, who is my favourite general in the world, Japan made all major Japanese Corporations send their general managers and managing directors to military staff college in order for them to manage their infrastructure correctly.

Mr Chairperson, the feeling of sovereignty and pride of nationalism is imbedded in the strength of the military of any country. You cannot feel strong or proud to be a Zambian unless you have a highly efficient military and defence force. It is in this regard, that I rise to support the budget and say that it falls far short of the expectations of this country of being well defended and protected.

Having said that, I would like to look at the welfare of soldiers. Accommodation in the military cantonments is pathetic. Now, that you have taken over the helm of the Ministry of Defence, you have to realise that some of the problems, which are associated with accommodation are also associated with the size of the army.

Primarily, at the time of the liberation of Southern Africa, the task for the Zambia Army to liberate Southern Africa grew too big in a short time. Hence, the reason the Zambia Army and Zambia Air Force are what there are today. At that time, it was important that the former President, Dr Kaunda, use all the available resources to ensure that Zambia was well defended and the task well supported. This is why most soldiers end up staying in shanty compounds where they should not be. Soldiers must be in military cantonments and barracks so that in cantoning together, it is possible for the commanders to enforce discipline.

Hon. Minister, now that you have this situation, it is important for you, as hon. Minister together with your generals to ensure that you assess the tasks. What are the present tasks for Zambia Army and Zambia Air Force? If you go on just because you have found an establishment and continue supporting these institutions, you will not find the resources. You have to find time, sit down in your offices and decide what the task for the military is.

Mr Mtonga: Zoona!


Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I have also realised that there is a big water supply problem in most military cantonments. This problem needs urgent attention. There is no need for our men and women in uniform who sacrifice their lives to defend this country to live like that. I know that other people would think that this profession is like any other. It is not like that. When for those men and women in uniform go on duty, they actually risk their lives. You may be a civil engineer, but you hardly risk your life unless a block falls on your head. I am sure you will have had a lot of training for that. If you are an accountant, the only danger to your life is when you decide to share the monies of that corporation in a manner which is not good. Therefore, you hardly risk your life. As for military personnel, they always risk their lives, hence the need to be taken care of.

The issue of water could be solved by sinking a number of boreholes and push in water reticulation in the barracks. If this is done, it will help soldiers have constant water supply, 24 hours a day. The situation where they share water in the afternoon is not sufficient and good enough.

Similarly, roads in military cantonments is another problem. This is something that the hon. Minister of Defence can deal with because military cantonments are not large. It should be easy to provide resources to ensure the roads in the military cantonment meet the required standard.

Mr Chairperson, in view of the time limitation, let me now come to the Defence Act and conditions of service. As I dwell on this matter, I would like to remind the hon. Minister of Defence and all those who are responsible to understand that one of the problems that you had in Sierra Leone is that you had a young army. It is important that the retirement age be extended from 55 years to at least 65 years especially, for higher ranks such as generals, commanders and senior warrant officers.

In the United Kingdom, they are pushing it to 65 years while in the United States of America, the generals retire at the age of 65. Yet, in Zambia, the retirement age is at 55 years. If this continues, you are going to end up with young people commanding the Zambia Air Force and the Zambia Army, making some of the most drastic decisions to the detriment of this country because they are young and are not matured.

We want you to serve this country. As you stand in this Parliament and debate on any of the topics, you should have a sense of security, which can only come from an efficient army, an army which is commanded and looked after by generals of valour, wisdom and experience.

Mr Chairperson, time is running very fast.


Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, as we deal with the mater of recruitment, I would like to advise you that we return to the pre-independence recruitment for the Zambia Air Force and the Zambia Army. Should it not worry you that in one year, there was a recruitment of 4,800 officers and 3,000 of those were from one region? Hon. Mpombo, do you understand what I am talking about? It is not necessary to have that number. You can check the records. 3,000 of the 4,000 represented one region.

 Looking at the history of the armies of African, it should starting killing some of the spines of the people in this House. You cannot have a situation where one region takes care of more than three quarters of the number recruited. Hon. Mpombo, as Minister of Defence, it is important that we start reviewing the matter of recruitment. Hon. Mpombo, you are the Minister of Defence. It is important that you look at it carefully because we do not want to have trouble in future. You do know, Hon. Mpombo that it happened …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair! Continue, but address the Chair.

Major Chizhyuka: If you are come from Kashinakazhi in Mwinilunga, you should recruit the Luvales and Lundas from there. If your name is Chizhyuka and you are found in Mwinilunga, you should not be recruited. However, if you want to become a member of the armed forces, then you must go back to Namwala, Southern Province, and be recruited from the districts where you were born. At the end of the day, we are going to have a balanced army that will give security to everyone who is here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhuyuka: If you go to Chibombo District, you should be looking for the Solis in Chibombo. If you come from …

Hon. Member: Copperbelt!

Major Chizhuyuka:  Copperbelt, in my opinion, and I am the one on the Floor, is for the Lamba people.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhuyuka: If you are a Bemba and you come from Luapula, you must go and register in Mansa. I am saying these things because I have served in the army, I have fought battles and I know what could happen to an army if it is misguided.

If you come from Mwanjabantu or Sinda, you cannot be recruited in Lusaka. You must go back to your place. In that way, you are going to have a balanced army, an army that is going to provide security to every constituency within the boundaries of this country. It is going to give you security.

You all know the dangers that exist in having one group over bearing every other group. You have heard of the Tutsi dominated army. What happened in Rwanda? There was genocide because the army was dominated by a single tribe. We do not want those things in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Hon. Minister of Defence, I would like you to address the matter of homogeneity in the recruitment of the soldiers of this country.


Major Chizhyuka: This is our country.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are consulting loudly.

Major Chizhyuka: I was going to proceed to talk about matters of discipline, but I think I will leave that to my colleagues.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you …


Major Chibamba: One Zambia!


Hon. Members: One nation!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Major Chibamba, you are making the work of the Chairperson very difficult.


The Deputy Chairperson:  No slogans are allowed here.

Can you continue, please?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chibamba: Sometimes it is good to have some sense of humour to change the temple as we debate these very important ministries.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the President for having appointed Hon. George Mpombo as Minister of Defence.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chibamba: I say so, Mr Chairperson, because each time the National Anthem is played, Hon. Mpombo stands at attention …


Major Chibamba: … which I think is something very befitting of a Minister of Defence.

In the same vein, I wish to congratulate the three commanders who had been appointed to the positions of commander in their respective services, Army Commander, Chisuzi, Air Force Commander, Mapala, and the Zambia National Service Commander, Mbao.

Sir, in doing so, I would like to begin by saying that the state of military establishments at the moment calls for a lot of funding. There has been very little or no maintenance programmes put in place to ensure that the barracks for our uniformed men and women are well maintained.

I will give an example of the First Battalion Zambia Regiment which is popularly known as 1KAR, meaning, the First Battalion of African Kings, Riffle, which is located in Ndola, Targagan Barracks. That establishment was erected immediately after the Second World War in the mid 1940s. The building structures that are there especially for soldiers, to some extent, even the living quarters for officers have now began to collapse. I think this is an area where, as a Government, we should direct our efforts to make sure that these institutions are well maintained.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to say that the allocation to the Ministry of Defence of K809 billion falls far short of the very basic requirements. You will agree with me that each time troops move out of the barracks, they need a lot of logistics to support the efforts of that particular operations. However, I have not seen in the Yellow Book any significant figure talking about the maintenance programmes for plant, equipment and any other infrastructure necessary and important to the well being of the Defence Force.

I am looking at training as well. There is a school in Kabwe where both officer cadets and recruits are trained. However, K310 million that is allocated per year is inadequate as training takes a lot of time, effort and resources. I do not think we are being fair to the system. We are not being fair to the system unless you pump in a lot of money then you do not expect the best out of these men and women who are recruited.

I would like to acknowledge the fact that the Zambia Army has been, for quite some time now, involved in the peace keeping missions for which, Zambia as a nation, has been honoured. This is a job well done, but I think that we should also understand that when troops go out for such missions, they are exposed to training in one way or the other.

I do not think that we do have the kind of training that is required for the soldiers during the peace time. It is important that training is intensified during the time the troops are not engaged in any military operations.

Mr Chairperson, for the Commanders, there are one or two issues that I would like to bring out on the Floor of the House. The first is the issue of corruption. During my time in uniform, corruption was something that was unheard of and I think that the current command should be able to look back and say, we did not get involved in corruption or corrupt practices, but why is it that today a very senior person is being dragged to court? I do not think this is fair.

Mr Chairperson, first of all, you must appreciate that your Commander-In-Chief has appointed you out of so many Zambians who deserve that promotion and, in some cases, who are better than you. Therefore, what are you giving back to the people of Zambia through the Commander-In-Chief? Command must deal very severely with people who are dealing with supplies because that is where the problem is coming from. There should be no room for fraudulent and false accounting. I do know that payments are done at the Ministry of Defence. Even that department must come under your clear, fair and bare hands, do not allow your officials to pay out cheques for no services or goods supplied.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chibamba: It is not the duty of the Commander to become the purchasing officer. Command issues border on instructions, and where the system functions well, the Commander does not have to know what has come in other than for military armaments. Should it be a routine issue for the Commander or indeed, very senior officers in the Army or the Air Force to monitor the purchase of foods and other supplies? Like I have said, I have known General Chisuzi and General Mapala for a long time and I have no doubt in my mind that they will be able to rise to the occasion and make sure that Zambia does not appear on the Internet that a very senior person will have been involved in corrupt practices.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to echo what my colleague has said on the issue of retirement age. I notice that some of the officers who have been retired both in the Air Force and the Army are coming back to be re-engaged on contract basis. This situation, Sir, confirms that these officers should have not in the first place been retired. It may be necessary, hon. Minister, for you and your colleagues to look at the issue of retirement age.

Mr Chairperson, what happens is that when you bring an officer back into service, first of all, I do not think that they are gaining any promotion and secondly, there are those who feel they should come back and be elevated, but this is not happening because the vacancy has been taken up by a retired general. Therefore, it may be important that we consider extending the service period to something like sixty-five years.

Mr Chairperson, the other thing I would like to talk about is sporting activities in the Air Force, the Army and the Zambia National Service. Mr Chairperson, gone are the days when the likes of General Kingsley Chinkuli, General Godfrey Miyanda and General Peter Zuze were there, when the armed forces were a delight to watch. The Green Buffaloes, Green Eagles and Red Arrows were a delight to watch. Zambia can benefit from the military establishment where sport is encouraged and all this depends on the amount of money that the Government will allocate to our Defence Force. We would like to see a lot of medals come to Zambia. We have sent many teams of different sporting activities, but they come back without medals. This is shameful and unacceptable.

Mr Chairperson, why are we economising on the money which should be put to proper use to benefit the country as a whole. The Army plays many roles in development and one such role is the public relations with the civilians. I think that aspect should be sufficiently funded because you need to be closer to the people whom you defend. The Army defends the Constitution and in that arrangement, they defend the people in the Republic of Zambia. I see that you are trying to separate from the people whom you are meant to serve. It will be important, Sir, to ensure that the Army is given sufficient money to purchase what we call troop carriers. I have noticed that the Army, and the Air Force have been given green looking vehicles from India. It is all right for the time being, but we should get vehicles which are robust enough to stand a longer period of time. It does not make sense for us to see our troops carried on buses when they are going for some kind of calling. This is unacceptable.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to say that when purchasing equipment, the Commanders must ensure that we are not getting third hand equipment because there is no warrant for such equipment, no spare part backup and it is not coming from a genuine source and that is one of the sources of the problem of corruption. I just would like to say that it is important for us to support, not only the hon. Minister of Defence, but the Ministry as a whole and members of the security force.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! After the two Majors have spoken, you risk saying something that may contradict what they have said. Is there anyone who thinks he/she can make a point before I ask the hon. Minister of Defence to summarise?

Mr Mtonga (Kanyama): Mr Chairperson, I promise to be brief.

I stand to address three points that my colleagues have adequately covered, otherwise my time will be shorter than that.

First of all, I wish to appeal to the Government, through the hon. Minister of Defence, that they should give Zambians a break and begin, for a change, to be strategic and conceptual in dealing with the growth of the Army.

To begin with, I would like to echo the submission of my colleagues, Hon. Chizhyuka that you need to re-examine the mission statement of the Army. Post liberation was on what is the Army expected to do in Zambia in peace time. What is their mission statement? Is it simply to go to Somalia and other wars or places or what is it in there for Zambians? My re-correction, hon. Minister, if your Government were to be conceptual and strategic in its thinking, you would consider to look at the problems of border security in this country and to down side the army as suggested by my colleague, Hon. Chizhyuka, in favour of local crime and security interest.

Mr Chairperson, the first policemen in this country were military. After the First World War, what is now known as Sikanze Police Camp, was actually Captain Ward Robbers Camp, named after the first military that was demobilised from the First World War to assist Zambia establish its law and order wings. In fact, most of the training officers and so on came from the Army. Now, you have the Army that has just come through a liberation war and you have so many of them. What is it they are doing for Zambia? Crime is on the increase, you have very brilliant men in the Army. Some of them you are offloading onto the street without knowing where to put them. You do not throw people who have been controlling this country on the street, with all the power and experience on their back at a time crime is confronting Zambia both in the urban and rural areas. We probably need a new Government there that can think correctly.


Mr Mtonga: I wish to also say that since the advent of the Third Republic, there seems, hon. Minister, through the Chairperson, something drastically wrong with the leadership style and political leadership in your Government because we have had defence leaders, commanders, going to court for crime. Very few, out of the many that you have retired, end up with the dignity, the respect, we expect you to give and we expect Zambians to give their leaders who have served the Army. You have taken most of them to court, in fact, some of them are still appearing before the court. What has your Defence Council which is an advisory body to the Commander-in-Chief been doing to correct this. Both my colleagues have hinted at the disgrace that comes when commanders end up charged with fraudulent cases suggesting that they were busy, instead of leading the Army, misappropriating funds. It calls for a leadership role. What does your Government propose to do to rectify that. This leadership crisis has to be overcome and Zambians given, as I said earlier, a break.

The final point I would like to make – hon. Minister, I wish you could listen to me through the Chair, I see that you are engaged by the learned hon. Minister of Justice.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, can you listen to the person debating.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mtonga: I do not want to miss you out, Mr Chairperson, and I do not want to miss the hon. Minister of Defence out. It is important that you recall the basis on which the Army has been built. It has been built from many tribes and diverse splits, but united in the purpose of defending this country, come rain or shine. Now, to do that, always we were told when you are in the Army, after joining at enlistment you are asked, what is your tribe? If you said you are Tumbuka, Lamba, whatever you lost it out. The correct answer is your tribe is Zambia Army. Once you join, you do not have any other tribe, but Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mtonga: Now, to suggest a tribal balancing in the Army is the same difficult thing you will meet in suggesting a tribal balancing in the police. If a burglary occurs and it is a Luvale who is in danger, you do not say because I am Ngoni, I cannot rush there and risk my life. You are prepared to die for every Zambian and every inch of this country. The wisdom of balancing leadership calls for more than just tribalising. You need to deal with it in hindsight and learn that merely tribalising does not get you quality. You have to insist on what makes a good soldier, policeman and so on.

I would like to finally appeal that as you revisit the crisis of leadership we have hinted on that has occurred since 1991, in particular, you, please, insist that the Army has only one tribe and that is Zambia Army.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to take off my hat to all the debaters.

I would like to begin with Hon. Major Chizhyuka, the Shimunenga Warrior. He has made very good contributions and I want to say that in terms recruitment for the National Army, we will embark on a national character. We will ensure that no district is disadvantaged. If we are in Kabwe and the recruitment is taking place there, we must visit the rural areas as well so that at least, everybody is captured. Therefore, the point he was trying to stress was that of national unity. He raised a very important point. It is not a question of tribalism. I do not think that is what he was trying to say, but he was trying to say that if we are in Mwinilunga, we must go to local chiefs and bring people on board.

Therefore, we have taken most of the issues he has said. I would also like to disagree with him that there has been an incidence where over 3,000 soldiers were recruited from one single area. I think it is not possible. As an Army, we will guard seriously against acts of tribalism.

I would like to thank Hon. Major Chibamba for his elaborate contribution. We have taken note of your concerns about improving infrastructure and logistics for the Army. We are actually singing from the hymn book because the Government is saying exactly what you are saying.

The debate by Hon. Mtonga has been a wilful distortion of facts, especially when he talks of a crisis in the Army. There is no crisis. We have some of the most highly qualified generals with very impeccable credentials in the military field. Therefore, the Zambia Army, ZAF and National Service Commanders are assets to the nation as they have distinguished themselves in their leadership.

With regard to the court courses, it would be sub judice for me to discuss issues that are in court, but I would like to state that we will maintain discipline despite whose animal is God.

Mr Chairperson, once again, may I thank the hon. Members for their overwhelming support. I really agree with you that we must maintain our Army and make sure that it is well supported.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K106,064,389,814).

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment: Under 4, Accounts Unit, Programme 7, Financial Management, Activity 04, by the insertion of “Inspection of Books of Accounts in Cantonments”.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 77/01, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 78 – (Zambia Security Intelligence Service – Office of the President K184,120,258,453).

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I have the honour and privilege to present to the House Estimates of Expenditure for the Zambia Security intelligence Service for the year 2007. In doing so, allow me to draw the attention of this august House to the following:

(i) policy framework; and
(ii) objectives and programmes

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Security Intelligence Services (ZSIS) was established by an Act of Parliament No.14 of 1998. According to the Act, the ZSIS is responsible for the security of the Republic and its people. It is, therefore, charged with the responsibility of being the principal advisor to the Government on matters of security. The functions of the Service that are articulated in the Act include the following:

(a) to protect the people and the Republic against threats to national security, acts of espionage, subversion, sabotage, terrorism, economic crimes and acts of intention to overthrow or undermine a legitimate Government by use of arms or other violent means;

(b) to collect or collate and evaluate intelligence relevant to the security or interest of the public;

(c) to co-ordinate and oversee activities relating to security intelligence of any ministry or department of the Government, the armed forces and Police Service; and

(d)  to advise the Government, public bodies, institutions and solitary bodies or corporations or the protection of vital installations and classified documents.

Mr Chairperson, these functions are embodied in the mission statement of the Service, which is:
‘to provide accurate and timely intelligence on the threat to national security in order to protect the Constitution and the economic well being of Zambia.’

By the mandate bestowed on it by law, the Service is a national institution strategic to the Zambian security. It is, therefore, important that ZSIS is given the necessary support by the Government and the people of Zambia to enable it fulfil its mandate. In doing so, it should be acknowledged that security is costly not a priceless commodity. As the custodian of our national security, ZSIS is shouldering this honourous and noble task with utmost professionalism and confidence.

Mr Chairperson, as we consider the budget for ZSIS for the year 2007, it is important for us to appreciate and comprehend the scenario of threats facing our country and indeed ZSIS today. As we do this, we should bear in mind the reality that security is at the core of the well being of any nation. Without security, no personal or national aspiration can be realised. Our country is on the road to a consolidation of the commendable gains so far attained in the political, economic and other areas of human development and requires stability to move forward.

Sir, security threats are complex and dynamic in character. As we consider funding for ZSIS, I would like to draw the attention of this House to the following scenario of threats currently facing the country.

 The Challenge to Sustain Peace and Stability
Our country has enjoyed peace and stability fro many years. This situation was not attained by chance. Peace has obtained in our country because the people of Zambia desire it and swatted any attempts to create civil strife. The challenge to remain stable and peaceful should be our primary preoccupation as a country. All the political maturity of our people and leadership should be credited to this achievement. We should acknowledge the undeniable fact that the security dimension of this country can be complex and a responsibility of specialised agencies such as the ZSIS is required.

Mr Chairperson, developing democracies like ours are fragile. There is a need, therefore, to ensure that the constitutional holder in our country is protected so that it is not derailed by self-seeking individuals or foreign interests. Zambia today is acclaimed as politically stable and destined for greatness. As we are aware, the peace dividend has been a great asset for the image of our country abroad as far as risk assessment is concerned. Toady our country is the one of the preferred destinations for investment, largely because Zambia has remained peaceful. It is, therefore, important for us as leaders to ensue that ZSIS is given the necessary support that by the Government and the people of Zambia to enable it fulfil its mandate. We owe it to our people to ensure that national institutions that are mandated to manage our security are facilitated to function and perform to acceptable capacities.

 In the same vein, I would like to take this opportunity to make a strong appeal to ourselves as politicians to continue to put the interest of the country first and resist succumbing to narrow political interests.

Mr Chairperson, it is now acknowledged that Zambia is endowed with abundant natural resources. However, it should be noted that the country’s attractive economic potential …

Mr Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 3rd April, 2007.