Debates- Wednesday, 31st October, 2007

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Wednesday, 31st October, 2007

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





Mr Speaker: I want to remind the House that punctuality is important. I see a number of vacancies in some desks in front of me. Hon. Members will recall that the new technology that we have records when you have reported on duty here in the House. So, we shall be checking the record of habitual late comers.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!




899. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing how many indigenous Zambians owned buildings on the following roads in Lusaka:

(a) Cairo Road;
(b) Cha Cha Cha Road;
(c) Freedom Way; and
(d) Lumumba Road.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … I wish to inform this august House that there are 234 buildings on Cairo; Cha Cha Cha; Freedom Way; and Lumumba Roads.

Mr Speaker, these buildings are owned by three different categories of Zambians. One-hundred and seventy-eight buildings are owned by public and private companies, eight buildings are owned by indigenous Zambians and fifty four by Zambians of foreign origins.

Mr Speaker, there are only four indigenous Zambians who own buildings on Cairo Road; Cha Cha Cha Road; Freedom Way; and Lumumba Road.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, from the answer given, it is possible that even in the other cities, very few indigenous Zambians …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating, ask your follow-up question.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, what measures are being put in place to ensure that real indigenous Zambians own buildings in strategic and prime areas for business?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mrs Masebo): Mr Speaker, that is a very important question in that it is a matter of great concern to this Government and to all Zambians.

Mr Speaker, in the past, local authorities had allocated strategic plots for residential, commercial and industrial purposes to indigenous Zambians, but the so-called indigenous Zambians have opted to sell to the so-called non-indigenous Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Now, it is against the law for one to get a piece of land pretending that they want to put up a house or shop just to end up selling it to a foreigner or, indeed to any other person. What this means is that you are getting land for sale and not that you need the land. The law allows one to get land and then develop it before selling.

However, what we have seen is the propensity by our people to get land to sell, in other words they get land for business purpose. This is why over the years, we have cadres and some citizens getting land that is not allocated to them because the local authorities have made it difficult to give these people land because they have found out that most of these people get land just for selling and use the money to buy vehicles instead of developing the pieces of land they acquire.

Mr Speaker, what we are doing now, as a ministry, is to try and encourage the local authorities to give part of their land to public institutions that are able to build houses like the National Housing Authority with the hope that people can buy houses that are already built instead of giving land to people who would later sell it for more money and end up creating problems for the country.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, what the hon. Minister has said is a source of concern.

Mr Speaker, these things are happening. For instance, near Habitat for Humanity, there are supposed to be small houses, but the people have sold their plots and now there are mansions and they are still continuing. What are we doing to stop the scourge? People must move in before it gets out of hand.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, I have already indicated what we are trying to do. Firstly, the local authorities have been directed not to give land to people who do not seem to be serious about construction.

Hon. Members: How do you know!

Mrs Masebo: We will know because first, we will ask them about their source of income for construction. We are also encouraging councils to allocate much of their land to institutions like the National Housing Authority (NHA) and the Municipal Housing Bonds and we hope that before the end of this year, we will be launching the construction of four thousand houses through the Municipal Housing Bonds.

We are also discouraging our people against selling land because land is the only property that God has given to us for free. We know that with time this land is going to finish because already in Lusaka we do not have any more land. It is almost finished.

The sad part is that even the houses that were sold to Zambian sitting tenants are being sold to non-Zambians. I hope that in future, people will not accuse this Government of having sold houses to non-Zambians.

Mr Speaker, I would like to say that it is our duty as elected officials to sensitise the public against selling property because some people do not understand that when one owns a house, it is the only saviour for one and one’s family. However, some Zambians are sometimes duped into accepting some millions of kwacha and this causes them to end up in the streets or compounds or on unplanned settlements.

It is not only the job of Government, but that of every individual leader whether in the opposition or the ruling party or, indeed, members of the public who are sensitised enough to educate our people against selling property once they have it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, owing to your capacity which you have very ably displayed in the last one year you have been Minister with regard to this issue of housing, is it not prudent for you to find a formula that will protect the interests of the indigenous Zambians?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I am saying so …

Mr Speaker: Order! Ask your question.

Major Chizhyuka: Thank you Mr Speaker. I am asking that question because I see …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating.

Major Chizhyuka: Given the rise of so many buildings, very important national and security strategic buildings in our country surrounded by …

Mr Speaker: Order! Will the hon. Minister reply to that?


Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, firstly, I would like to thank the hon. Member for his kind comments. We have taken note of his suggestion of coming up with a formula to protect the indigenous Zambians by sensitising them once they are given pieces of land so that they do not sell it.

As a ministry we are reviewing the Housing Policy. We have completed reviewing it and will be making it available for comments to the public before we finalise it. We are also coming up with new legislation as regards the Town and Country Planning Act and the Statutory Improvement Areas Act which pieces of legislation guide issues of planning and housing in this country.

I want to suggest to the hon. Members, in particular the hon. Member who is very particular about the indigenous Zambians, to make suggestions on how best we can come up with that formula which will help us to protect our people against giving away land once it has been allocated to them.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker if this Government is going to continue with a liberalised economy, while at the same time unable to protect the indigenous people, how then is it possible that Zambians at 80 per cent poverty levels will be able to buy more than half of Lusaka land and property if the policy is not changed. How are you going to achieve that?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, it is possible to legislate against non-foreigners owning land or buying property. In other countries, even if you have the money, you cannot buy residential properties. That is possible and this administration is working on changing many archaic laws that are not in line with the new liberalised environment and we are taking necessary steps to change some of these pieces of legislation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu):  Mr Speaker, there have been instances where even politicians at the level of hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament, including civil servants, have failed to access pieces of land only to find the same group of people we are talking about building all over the country. How does the hon. Minister reconcile her position that Zambians are in the habit of selling land if even Ministers end up becoming destitute in their own country?

Hon. Government Member: Elo walandapofye ifyamano.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, the first scenario is very correct about Zambians owning land and selling it off. That is very true. If you go to Rhodes Park area, most of those houses used to belong to the Government and almost all of them were sold to sitting tenants who were Zambians. When you go there now, the scenario has changed.

The second point that the hon. Member has raised is to some extent also true, but it can not supersede the first scenario that it is sometimes very difficult for serious developers in this country to get land - forget about hon. Ministers and hon. Members of Parliament because some of those might not be serious developers – I am talking about indigenous Zambians with money in their accounts who have gone to local authorities to apply for a piece of land to put up a commercial structure or residential structure and they have failed. What are we doing about this issue?

I will not talk about the past, but throw a challenge to the Members of Parliament and indeed to the citizens out there that if anybody wants to acquire a house, they are free to go to National Housing Authority tomorrow who will show them land which is developed and land which is not developed. You can choose to buy a house which is already built if you have the money. You can also choose to identify a piece of land on and tell them what type of structure you want put there. If you are not happy with the type of structures they are putting up, you can give them your own plan and they will do the costing for you and then build you a house within the next six months.

The problem we have is that even when public institutions like the National Housing Authority advertises, our people are never interested to go and approach them. Other people go and enquire and buy these properties. So, I want to say to the hon. Members of Parliament that with their gratuity they can go to NHA and get a house instead of getting these posh vehicles.

Hon. Members: When!

Mrs Masebo: Tomorrow, and you will get a house.


Mrs Masebo: … and you will get the house.

Mr Speaker, apart from that, my colleagues in the House are aware that we have a minimum of a 100 plots in each district. We have asked the local authorities to identify, at least, a minimum of 100 residential plots for low, medium and high cost and we have asked them to ensure that these plots are developed in terms of services. So far, over K2 billion has been released by this Administration to the National Housing Authority to work with the local authorities to ensure that the land is serviced so that any private person can go to the council or the National Housing Authority and ask them to construct the house for them.

Sir, I can confirm that we have a minimum number of plots throughout the country. At least, 90 per cent of councils that have good Members of Parliament have already submitted and I have responded positively.

If anybody wants to own a piece of land in Zambezi, Chavuma or Livingstone, you will get it. Our problem is that everybody wants to be in Lusaka. Lusaka is not Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: These same people you are talking about are already in Zambezi, Chavuma and Livingstone whilst you are fighting for land in Chief Nkomesha’s area.


Mrs Masebo: By the time you realise it, the whole Zambezi District will have been taken by these same people you are complaining against. Even those of you who come from Zambezi want to live in Chongwe and Lusaka.

Hon. Opposition Members: Mukuma!


Mrs Masebo: Learn from your colleagues like the Kenyan Members of Parliament who invest their money in their areas so that we can also develop the whole Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, go and build your house in Kasama or Mporokoso…

Hon. Opposition Members: What about you?

Mrs Masebo: I do not just have a house in Chongwe but I even have a farm there. I have everything in Chongwe. By the way, Lusaka is part of Chongwe.

My advice to you is that go to your homes and put up structures there. For you that have minerals in your areas, venture into mining. Go and apply for mining licences and invest in mines. It will be in this same House that you will start complaining that all the mines in Zambezi or Kaoma have been given to foreigners and yet you are here and doing nothing about it. You have not even informed the public about the pieces of legislation that you make so that the indigenous people can apply to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for licences.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!


900. Mr Mweemba (Magoye) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development when Chief Hanjalika’s palace in Magoye Parliamentary Constituency will be connected to the National Grid.

Mr Speaker, I withdraw the question.


Mr Speaker: Order, ask your question.


Mr Mweemba: Question 900.


The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, in response to the question that was almost withdrawn by the hon. Member for Magoye, I would like to inform the House that the project to supply power to Chief Hanjalika’s palace was completed in June 2007 …


Mr Sichilima: … and the Chief’s palace is now connected to the national electricity supply grid.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!


901. Mr Imasiku (Liuwa) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) how many buildings were left by the former WENELA in the Western Province, district by district;

(b) how the buildings at (a) above have been distributed in each district; and

(c) what the current status of the former WENELA buildings in Kalabo District is.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, I wish to respond as follows:

(a) buildings left by WENELA in the Western Province district by district are as follows:

District     Number of Buildings
Mongu              5
Lukulu              5
Kalabo           15
Sesheke        14

Mr Speaker, in response to part (a) of the question, I wish to inform the House as follows:

(i) one house was sold to a sitting tenant;
(ii) three houses are occupied by Government officers; and 
(iii) one is being used as a Government health centre called Liowelo Clinic.

Mr Speaker, with regard to Lukulu District, of the five houses left, only two still exist and are being used by Government officers. The other three have collapsed.

Mr Speaker, in the case of Kalabo District:

(i) six houses were sold to sitting tenants;
(ii) one is being occupied by a Government official; and
(iii) the remaining eight semi permanent structures are proposed to be donated to the Barotse Royal Establishment.

Mr Speaker, with regard to Sesheke District:

(i) one high cost house is being used by the Government;
(ii) five high cost houses have collapsed;
(iii) two office blocks are being used by the Barotse Royal Establishment;
(iv) three medium cost houses are used by Government officials while two have collapsed;
(v) one block is being used as a garage by the Government;
(vi) one block is being used as a health post; and 
(vii) one is being used as a classroom.

Mr Speaker, in response to part (c) of the questions, the current status of the fifteen WENELA houses left in Kalabo is that they are all in a deplorable state and disrepair and are of no economic value.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that most of the houses left by WENELA were surrendered to the Barotse Royal Establishment and where they exist, they still belong to the Barotse Royal Establishment.

Sir, I have a letter here which I can refer to. It was written by the Ngambela on 15th September, 2005.

Mr Speaker: Order! It is very likely that this is privileged correspondence which should not be disclosed here. However, ask your question.

Mr Imasiku: I thank you, Mr Speaker. I just want to say that these houses were given to …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is your question?

Mr Imasiku: Sir, does the hon. Minister know that these houses were surrendered to the Barotse Royal Establishment in all the districts except in Kalabo?

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, it will help if the hon. Member has evidence to prove that these buildings were officially handed over to the Barotse Royal Establishment (BRE). Our understanding as a ministry is that these were handed over to the Government and the Government decided to distribute them according to what has been stated in the response to the question. If the hon. Member has more information, it will help us and, indeed, if the Government erred, necessary steps will be taken.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister is aware that the transaction of labour export in South Africa was between the Barotse Royal Establishment and the South African Government and not with the Northern Rhodesian Government.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, we are aware that before 1964, many transactions in the Western Province were between whoever may have been involved and the legitimate traditional Government of the day. After 1964, a number of things changed and it is in light of those changes that today, Barotse Land is Western Province.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}


903. Mrs E. M. Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when the ministry would procure desks for most of the schools in Chililabombwe Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) whether the ministry had plans to construct science laboratories in basic schools which were upgraded to high schools in the above constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that the ministry has begun procuring desks to distribute to all needy school across the country. This is a continuous exercise and each province will receive 500 single seater desks and 1,250 double seater desks. To this effect, Copperbelt schools, including those in Chililabombwe, will have a share from this consignment. The current status of the desks to be procured is as follows.

Province    No. of Desks Distributed

(a) Western Province   1,250

(b) Southern Province   1,250

(Due to a power failure, part of the question was not recorded)

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Sir, is it fair for the hon. Minister of Education to subject pupils in schools without laboratories to the same examinations as those from schools with laboratories?

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, science is part of the school curriculum in Zambia. Accordingly, all the pupils who take it have to sit for examinations. If a school has no laboratory, the ministry provides science kits to enable the pupils to do science practicals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to know when the first phase on construction of science laboratories will be completed.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the programme to construct laboratories is ongoing. We have not been able to make progress due to lack of funds. However, as soon as funds are available, all the schools will be attended to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, the question that has been asked by the hon. Member for Roan has not been adequately answered by the hon. Minister of Education. How does the ministry expect the pupils in schools where there are no laboratories to fairly write the examinations as opposed to the schools which have laboratories? Are you not being unfair to the pupils who are in schools where there are no laboratories, by giving them the same examination as those in schools with laboratories? I would like the hon. Minister to answer the question properly.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I indicated in my response to the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan that in addition to physical facilities like laboratories, we do provide science kits in schools and the kits are, to a large extent, filling in the gap where there are no science laboratories. I would like to know if there are schools in Gwembe District which have no science kits. If that is the case, we will make an effort to procure science kits which will induct pupils to practicals in science.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


904. Mr Mwapela (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) why ZAWA was not providing adequate support to its officers in Kalabo District who focus their anti-poaching activities in the Liuwa National Park at the expense of other areas in the district; and

(b) when an officer from the ZAWA offices in Chilanga would be sent to Kalabo District to assist in the formation of Community Resource Boards.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) does provide adequate support to all its officers in Kalabo District. The officers from Kalabo District conduct operations in Liuwa National Park and the surrounding areas. This House may also wish to know that all areas in the district are treated the same way in as far as anti-poaching activities are concerned. There is no difference in the support that Liuwa National Park receives from African Parks Foundation which is currently managing the park.

Mr Speaker, the formation of Community Resource Boards (CRBs) is an initiative of the local people through the traditional leadership. The procedure is that the communities initiate an application to the Director-General of ZAWA. ZAWA then assists the concerned community with the formation of the CRB. With regard to Kalabo, I wish to inform the House that ZAWA is working with the community to form the Community Resource Board, hopefully by early 2008.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwapela: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister aware that ZAWA is hiding in the existence of African Parks? What is the ministry doing to monitor African Parks activities in Liuwa National Park?


Mr Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Kaingu): Mr Speaker, ZAWA is not hiding in the African Parks. We have an agreement with African Parks to manage the resources in Liuwa. Therefore, it is not true that ZAWA is hiding in African Parks.

Sir, I did not get the other question.


Mr Simama (Kalulushi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why indigenous Zambians who live within Liuwa National Park are asked to collect passes from a place 40 kilometers away when they want to collect firewood, cut grass or fish. When they are found collecting firewood, they are beaten.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we do not allow people to go into national parks to collect either flora or fauna. Therefore, our officers will not allow anybody trying to collect firewood.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I wonder if the Hon. Minister could enlighten us on the conservation resource. It is now three years over due in the case of Liuwa since the African Parks Foundation was given the contract. What benefit is there for the people of Liuwa, especially that they cannot collect their own firewood. What benefits have been given to the Government of Zambia while the Royal Establishment has been displaced? How much is at stake here for the local people?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we have stated that CRBs are enterprises. Therefore, it is entirely up to the communities themselves to form CRBs. However, I would like to inform this House that already, there are some resources at ZAWA for the communities in Liuwa. We have about K88 million and as soon as they form CRBs, the money will be given to them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Gona kuzingwa

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, I am settling down well.


Mr Chisanga: Mr Speaker, here at gona kuzingwa…

Mr Speaker: Order!


Mr Chisanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether he is aware that there are no ZAWA officers in Mkushi Lwano Valley.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, that is a new question.


Mr Kaingu: If the hon. Member wants us to give him the answer, please, let him put it writing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


905. Mr Sichamba (Isoka West) asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development:

(a) when the electrification of Chief Kafwimbi’s palace in Isoka West Parliamentary constituency would be completed; and

(b) why the project was abandoned despite its importance to the community in Kafwimbi.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that the electrification of Chief Kafwimbi’s palace in Isoka West Parliamentary Constituency is scheduled to be completed by December, 2007.

Mr Speaker, the project was not abandoned. Government considers this project important to the community in Kafwimbi. The project is still continuing although it had stalled due to lack of materials. This situation has now been addressed and the project is scheduled to be completed by December, 2007.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sichamba: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out the mechanism the Hon. Minister is going to put in place to ensure that projects that are planned for are not abandoned, but completed on time. What measures is the hon. Minister putting in place to ensure that these inadequacies that have blocked ZESCO in completing these projects are addressed?

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, the intention of Government through various institutions is to ensure that programmes that have been budgeted for are implemented in the financial year as indicated and approved by this House.

Sometimes, there are few challenges that arise and due to these projects stall. However, ZESCO has been directed to work with the Rural Electrification Authority to ensure that this project is completed by December, 2007.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Misapa (Mporokoso): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Minister of Energy and Water Development whether it is possible for him to make it a deliberate policy to ensure that power is supplied to all registered traditional chiefs instead of hon. Members asking questions one by one.


Mr Mtonga: Zoona!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, it is true that most of the questions related to electrification of chiefs’ palaces, schools and clinics keep coming one after the other. As we indicated in the last session of Parliament, the Government has put in place the Rural Electrification Master Plan.


Mr Konga: Through this Rural Electrification Master Plan, 1,217 rural growth centres have been identified which are supposed to act as model growth centres for economic development. Among these centres are rural health centres, schools and chiefs’ palaces. Once this programme is implemented, I hope all the questions from hon. Members of Parliament will not arise because all of them would have been taken into account.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Silavwe (Nakonde): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: Order! Microphone! Microphone!

Mr Silavwe: I am sorry. It appears that most of the projects have come to a stand still because of the shortage of poles. Each time one goes to Zambia Electricity Supply Corporations (ZESCO) and asks about a project, one is told that there is a shortage of poles. Now, I want to find out from the Hon. Minister whether these poles are imported or are purchased locally since we have so many forests in Zambia.

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, it is true that at the distribution level, for most of these projects to be completed, there is a requirement to use a large number of poles to distribute the power network. Often, ZESCO has to rely on another company called Zambia Forestry and Forest Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) to supply these poles. There are few challenges that ZAFFICO is facing relating to some materials which it needs to prepare the poles. As a result, this is causing a delay for the company to supply ZESCO with poles. Consequently, ZESCO also delays in executing the projects.

However, ZESCO is collaborating with ZAFFICO to ensure that those challenges the company is facing are addressed so that delivery of poles is quickened. We hope that the process for implementation of projects will also be quickened.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how effective rural electrification is and some of the problems they have to connect the expensive transformer that is rotting in Chambeshi. What are the serious problems you have that have caused you not to connect the Chambeshi transformer which was given as a gift by a South African company? If you send intelligence officers there, they will find the precious transformer rotting at Chambeshi Bridge.

Ms Mumbi: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Speaker, as I have indicated, most of these places which are far from the National Grid had to be identified through the Rural Electrification Master Plan. Of course, the Government could quench fires and do a programme here and there, but the intention is try to identify all the necessary rural growth centres so that we can then adopt the right mode of electrification such as connecting to the National Grid or putting up a mini-hydro or using solar energy. This is what could have contributed to the issue at Chambeshi because it is not connected to the National Grid.

Needless to say, I will take note of issues raised by the hon. Member and follow up to ensure that this transformer is not just left lying idle, but put to economic use by connecting the residents who are in the vicinity of that area to the National Grid.

I thank you, Sir.


906. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when the Government would rehabilitate the following roads in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) the road from Nachibila School to Nalubanda via Choombwa; and

(ii) the road from Myooye area to Muchabi School.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the ministry has appointed all district councils as road authorities for the maintenance of feeder roads in their respective districts. The maintenance of these roads shall be undertaken by the Namwala District Council according to their priority. The identification and selection of feeder roads will be included in the Annual Work Plan for the Road Development Agency to be carried out by the respective district councils.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, the geographical boundary of Namwala District Council does not constitute Nangoma. Is the hon. Minister asserting that Namwala District Council has been assigned the responsibility of road network in Nangoma Constituency in Mumbwa?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the issue of feeder roads is now under the local authorities. Any feeder road will be planned by a local authority in that particular area.

I thank you, Sir.


907. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development what measures the Ministry had taken to ensure that the Football Association of Zambia becomes economically viable and autonomous in order to stop the current dependency on Government funding.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Mr Speaker, FAZ like other sporting bodies, has been mandated to become economically viable. Some of the measures taken are to instil financial discipline and accountability in the association. Also, the association has been instructed to employ a business manager who will help the institution to come up with business plans for mobilisation of resources. Further, my ministry has started systematically reducing the grants to FAZ. However, the Government will continue to support the senior national team until such a time that FAZ is able to do that on its own.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, we have been told that FAZ has employed a business manager. I want to find out from the hon. Minister when FAZ will be given a grant so that they can invest it in a business for them to stand on their own feet.

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, I would want to correct the hon. Member for Chipili that my statement referred to the fact that we have requested FAZ to employ a business manager. They are yet to do that and the idea is that this will allow them to become business oriented as our vision is to see that sport is run as a business.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, FAZ has a business manager, hon. Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: However, given the many games that FAZ plays, how do you expect them in the current scenario were businesses are not supporting football, to stand on their own feet if you do not give them enough money to invest?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, this question contradicts the earlier views. We were requested to stop funding FAZ and now I understand that we need to fund them. The reason for the request for FAZ to have a business manager is that they should be accountable for the funds or the resources that they need to have in order to run FAZ as a business. So, the idea is that there is need to wean them off Government funding if they are going to run as a business. If we continue funding the, they will never take off.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, the Government has been pushing FAZ to hire a foreign coach, a very costly venture. In view of the very limited funding that the Government is willing to give them, would it not be wise to advise FAZ to train their own and keep the coach who has done so well so far?

Ms Cifire: Mr Speaker, it was only last week that the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development announced that Coach Phiri would continue until further notice. The cries for a foreign coach have actually been coming from the fans. So, since FAZ is supposed to run on its own, what it has been asked to do is to find the best possible solution to ensure improved performance of the team.

I thank you, Sir.


908. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives when the following agricultural inputs would be distributed to Luampa Parliamentary Constituency in readiness for the 2007/2008 farming season:

(i) basal and top dressing fertilisers; and 
(ii) maize, finger millet, sorghum and potato seeds.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Speaker, the distribution of agricultural inputs in Kaoma District for the 2007/08 farming season began in August, 2007 and was completed by 30th September, 2007.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to point out that the Fertiliser Support Programme under my ministry does not deal with the distribution of seeds or other crops besides maize. Agricultural inputs are distributed by district and not by constituency. Consequently, Kaoma District, under which Luampa Constituency falls, was allocated a total of 770 metric tonnes of fertiliser and 38.5 metric tonnes of maize seed.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Limata: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the Government is going to start giving loans to small-scale farmers.

The Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives (Mr Kapita): Mr Speaker, the question is not clear concerning the type of loans the hon. Member of Parliament for Luampa is talking about. We have two types of loans right now. We have the Irrigation Development Funds which I launched on 7th September, 2007 and people are already making applications and loans are being accessed.

Mr Speaker, we have since set up a task force that is composed of the farmers and officers from the ministry to look at the modalities of giving loans to small-scale farmers without title deeds to their land because that is the problem we have right now. The money is there, but the majority of our people do not have title deeds. So, we are trying to find a solution to this and we will definitely find it. Four weeks ago, we gave Eastern Province K31 billion from the African Development Bank, but unfortunately in this country we seem to have continued with the culture of not paying back.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, despite the increment in the subsidy in this year’s budget from last year, I have noticed that …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are now debating; what is your question.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, why is it that there is generally a decrease in the allocation of inputs to the districts? For example, in Monze, you have given them half of what was given last year.

Dr Scott: Last year was election year.

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, perhaps, I will begin by saying that it is not true that we did not give them a lot of fertiliser last year because it was election year. The reason is that this year in the budget approved by this House, you allocated to my ministry only K150 billion to procure the inputs for this season. Last year, you originally gave us K198 billion to procure 60,000 metric tonnes of fertiliser.

On 17th November, I requested for further allocation through the President of the Republic of Zambia and he gave us a further 20,000 metric tonnes. The Japan International Development Agency (JICA) also gave us for Kabwe and Kapiri-Mposhi 4,000 metric tonnes. That brought the total for last season to 84,000 metric tonnes and the cost of the fertiliser, without including the Japanese fertiliser, was K252 billion, but for this season you only gave me K150 billion. Unless this House is saying you are putting more money in my kit, every district and province had a 50 per cent reduction,.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, what plans does the ministry have for the districts that had received inadequate fertiliser for the 2007-2008 farming season?

Mr Kapita: Mr Speaker, the 2006/2007 farming year is finished and we are not goi9ng backwards. I am afraid, they can only get an allocation as per this year’s budget allocation to my ministry.

I thank you, Sir.




Dr Chishimba (Kasama Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology for the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table on 10th October, 2007.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, for the year 2007, your Committee considered the following topics:

(i) operations and regulation of private schools and tuition centres;

(ii) Zambia’s attainment of the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) on the education for all by 2015;

(iii) status of Academic Production Units (APU);

(iv) local tours of selected places related to the topical issues that were selected by the Committee; and

(v) outstanding issues from the Action Taken Reports on the Committee’s Report for 2006.

Sir, I will proceed to present your Committee’s observations and recommendations in relation to the submissions that were received on tours that were undertaken during the period under review.

Operations and Regulations of Private Schools and Tuition Centres

Mr Speaker, your Committee’s objectives in relation to regulation and operations of private schools were to examine the legislative rule and policy framework as well as the efficacy of regulations on the private schools and tuition centres. In pursuance of these objectives, your Committee were dismayed to learn that even though tuition centres provide a service in the education sector, there is no legal provision under the Education Act or any other law to govern their operations. Thus, tuition centres are not regulated by any authority. In this regard, it is sufficient for one to register a tuition centre with the Registrar of Companies and commence operations.

Sir, considering their proliferation and the significance of the service they provide, it is imperative that tuition centres are expressly provided for under the law on education so that they may be regulated to ensure compliance with the education sector standards and policies. This is particularly important because the Government claims to be established on the principle of the rule of law.

Mr Speaker, as for private schools, your Committee noted that despite these being provided for under the Education Act of 1966, and there are regulations to this effect, there were numerous breaches of the law in relation to how they were being run. For example, your Committee toured the private school that offers classes from pre-school up to Grade 12, which also has a college operating from the same premises, contrary to the Ministry of Education regulations on the need for separation of young school going children from older counterparts. It is also a common phenomenon to find many private schools operating from residential homes that do not have adequate space to provide areas for recreation as required by law. Moreover, most private schools are offering secondary education without laboratory facilities. In addition, your Committee observed that some of the private schools have classrooms that are poorly ventilated, thereby exposing children to multiple health risks.

In this regard, there is need to revisit certification of private schools. Private schools in private residences should be closed and proprietors of such schools should be encouraged to obtain land to build proper schools. Additionally, there is need to reinforce regulation of private schools through a strong and capable inspectorate. Private schools in breach of regulations should be closed. The duty of the Government to protect the interest of the public in educating the future is sacred and ought to be taken with utmost seriousness by relevant authorities, especially that astronomical amounts are charged to access places in private schools. This, of course, also goes on unchecked.

Zambia’s Attainment of the Millennium Development Goal on Education vis-à-vis Education For All by 2015

Mr Speaker, your Committee considered the topic on Zambia’s attainment of the Millennium Development Goal on Education vis-à-vis Education For All by 2015. This was in order to get an update on progress towards the realisation of this goal.

Sir, the six Education For All targets are:

(i) Early Childhood Care Development and Education (ECCDE): The focus of ECCDE is on expanding and improving comprehensive early childhood care and education, especially for the vulnerable and disadvantaged children;

(ii) Universal Access and Completion of Free Basic Education: This seeks to ensure that by 2015, all children, particularly girls, children in difficult circumstances and those who belong to ethnic minorities have access to and complete free and compulsory education of good quality;

(iii) Life Skills: The main thrust of this is ensuring that learning needs of all young people and adults are met through equitable access to appropriate learning and life skills programmes;

(iv) Adult Literacy: The aim is to achieve a 50 per cent improvement in the levels of adult literacy by 2015, especially for women and equitable access to basic and continuing education for all adults;

(v) Gender Equality: This emphasises elimination of gender disparities in primary and secondary education by 2015 with focus on ensuring girls’ full and equal access and achievement in basic education of good quality; and

(vi) Quality: This focuses on improving all aspects of quality education and
ensuring excellence.

Mr Speaker, in so far as EFA is concerned, one of the concerns raised by the stakeholders is that due to poor funding by the Government, education infrastructure development presents a crisis situation predominantly because while the population of children is growing, schools are not being constructed proportionately.

Sir, other factors include inadequate learning materials, insufficient numbers of teachers and prohibitive distances. To practically contextualise the concern on infrastructure, your Committee has established that the Government has only built two high schools since the 1970s when the last public school was built. The number of Government colleges and training centres had also remained static in the period. The inadequate school facilities lead to education access being denied to pupils, and yet it is claimed that education is a right.

Sir, it is your Committee’s considered view that the Government will not be able to achieve most, if not all, of the Education For All goals mainly because, to date, Zambia does not even have a consolidated Education For All (EFA) plan which is one of the recommendations from the Dakar World Education Forum to guide implementation and monitoring of EFA. An EFA Strategic Framework was developed which to date is awaiting cabinet approval. As part of the institutional framework, an EFA Secretariat had been put in place, but this is no longer in operation.

Secondly, implementation of programmes seems to be hampered by capacity limitations in the Ministry of Education such as tender procedures, logistics and expenditure. Critically, the high centralised tender procedures delay progress. The danger is that when the crisis situation is reached, there will be a tendency of abrogating tender procedures.

Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government to quickly put in place the consolidated Education For all Plan. In this context and in consideration of lessons learnt, your Committee are of the strong view that the Government should not rush into committing itself to protocols which they are not ready for and have no capacity to implement. When the Government does commit itself to protocols, the implementation must be localised to suit the Zambian needs and situation. In addition, the practice by the Government of engaging consultants, at great cost, who undertake studies and produce bulky documents that are not implemented, must stop. This includes putting an end to the culture of unnecessary workshops, especially at the Ministry of Education Headquarters level. Teaching, of course, at the operational level cannot do without workshops. The main concern of your Committee is workshops at Headquarters.

Sir, your Committee further established that funding to the education sector continues to be inadequate to meet the heavy investment needs in the sector. The education proportion of Zambia’s budget currently is between 2.9 per cent and 3.2 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and falls below the recommended minimum of 5 per cent for Southern African countries. Financially, the Government’s expenditure on education, on a comparative basis with other low income African countries that are committed to achieving universal completion of primary education is low when other countries allocate, at least, 5 per cent of their GDP to education. The net effect of this shortfall is the poor quality of education currently being experienced.

Sir, there is need for increased funding to the education sector with the aim of eventually allocating 25 per cent of the GDP to education. Once this is achieved, it will lead to many of the issues in education being resolved. New infrastructure in education is required if Education For All goals have to be achieved. Furthermore, there is need for a recognisable fund to be set up. This should operate on the lines of ZAMSIF to be used for school infrastructure development and maintenance. It should not be hidden under the sector pool.

The Ministry of Education programme of recruitment and deployment of teachers was frozen between 2003 and 2004 as a result of higher wages implemented in 2003. However, even after the hiring of teachers was resumed, the ministry of education has not, to date, employed enough basic school teachers in comparison with internationally accepted standards. At the ministry of education joint annual review meeting for 2006, in February 2007, it was reported that 7,100 teachers were recruited out of the targeted 10,000. The critical teacher shortage, especially in the rural areas, was acknowledged.

Sir, related to what I have just said, is the issue of the poor conditions of service for teachers and lecturers which remains a huge challenge and a contributing factor to falling standards of education because teachers and lecturers lack motivation. Furthermore, their housing, rural hardship and other allowances are never paid on time. This has made strikes an endemic feature of the education system. The lack of sufficient numbers of teachers, coupled with the poor conditions of service, compromises the quality of education delivery and, in some cases, even access to education.

Therefore, your Committee urge the Government to recruit and post all trained teachers upon completion of their course to schools where teachers’ services are required. Furthermore, conditions of service for teachers must be improved and their housing allowances incorporated into the salary. This should not be a problem considering the fact that the Government has openly claimed economic stability and development. Therefore, teachers and lecturers must get a fair share of that growth which is preached everyday. Rural hardship allowance must not be withdrawn, but should be paid to all teachers in rural areas, and must be extended to all teachers in peri-urban areas.

Your Committee observed that the Government is in hurry to implement the policy of Education For All, including those with special learning needs, but has not taken the necessary steps to ensure that the needed materials and manpower are available. This has led to those with special needs being disadvantaged.

Until the Government is ready to provide the learning aids and specialised teachers, it would be best to continue with the system of having special units in established schools for those with special learning needs.

Mr Kambwili: Nwako na amenshi, boyi.

Dr Chishimba: Status of Academic Production Units

Mr Speaker, the third topic that your Committee considered was the status of Academic Production Units (APU) with a view to ascertaining the rationale and policy framework of the same.

Your Committee learnt that academic production units were started in the late 1980s on the Copperbelt by teachers in secondary schools with a dual objective one of which was for teachers to raise extra funds to cushion the impact of the harsh economy. The other objective was to provide Grade 10 places for children who had passed grade 9 examinations, but were not selected to grade 10 due to fewer places in existing secondary schools. Later, other provinces joined in the provision of this kind of education.

Your Committee was informed that the Ministry of Education had embraced the scheme as one of the modes of education delivery and that the objectives were, among others:

(i) to supplement teachers’ meager salaries, thereby boosting their morale and, consequently, reducing the brain drain; and

(ii) to improve enrolment levels of pupils by creating more school places at high school level.

The main concern expressed by stakeholders over the continued running of the APU system is that the Educational Act recognises three categories of educational institutions, namely: grant-aided, government and private schools. The placement of the Academic Production Unit System in this frame work is unclear. The existence of the practice needs to be clarified.

Sir, your Committee notes that, from a legal viewpoint, APU does not exist as it is not expressly provided for under the Education Act or any other piece of legislation. In other words, it is illegal. In this vein, your Committee observed that the APU system is a result of the Government’s failure to provide an adequate number of school places for students as well as its failure to provide a decent wage for teachers.

Therefore, APU is not a system, but a stopgap or ad hoc measure aimed at temporarily resolving the problem of access to upper basic and high school education by learners who, in the majority of cases, are qualified, but cannot access places from Grades 8 to 12. This was an initiative by teachers and parents that addressed, to some extent, the issues of access and conditions of service for teachers as well as to provide additional income to schools.

However, this system has created problems in some aspects of teaching, learning and education analysis such as: teacher-pupil quality, pupil:teacher ratios, pupil:book ratios, teacher:pupil contact time, assessment, evaluation and remedial work. For instance, it has been observed that the introduction of APU classes and subsequently the use of the same classroom space as the regular classes had contributed to the reduction of contact time between teachers and pupils in regular classes. This has had an effect on the coverage of syllabus and promotes teaching just for the purposes of preparing pupils for examinations. Further, the APU classes have impacted negatively on remedial lessons as teachers and space have been taken up by APUs. The fact that the Government has embraced this system is, in itself, an admission of the failure of the Zambian education system.

Consequently, your Committee, taking cognisance of the fact that the Academic Production Unit (APU) is not legally provided for in the Act, are of the opinion that the Government cannot institutionalise a deficiency as a consequence of its failure to provide adequate education access to all and its inability to pay teachers decent wages.

In this regard, the Government should create conditions that will see a phasing out, within a specific time-frame, of the Academic Production Units by creating the appropriate conditions in the education sector, namely: the construction of more schools that will increase access to Education For All and to pay teachers a decent salary.

In conclusion, your Committee was surprised to learn that Zambia is currently using the Education Act of 1966 which, in our view, is out-dated and has been over taken by events. It is no longer able to serve the current needs in the education sector. Both issues of tuition centres and academic production units are proof of this.

Mr Speaker, the review of the Education Act to which UNESCO, through the Zambia National Commission for UNESCO, contributed funds, that is between 2003 and 2004, ought to be quickly completed and brought before the House expeditiously.

Mr Speaker, I wish to conclude by expressing your Committee’s gratitude to yourself and the office of the Hon. Mr Speaker and the leadership for the professional guidance which your Committee received. I must mention the warm hospitality which was accorded to us by the Office of the Clerk and the Clerk herself all the way down to individual officers who attended to your Committee in ensuring that we completed our work here within the specified time frame.

We are also humbled by the witnesses that appeared before your Committee. They came from the labour movement, the Government itself, the civil society and the church.

It is your Committee’s sincere hope that observations and recommendations contained in this report will go a long way in improving education, science, technology and vocational training sectors in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I faithfully and enthusiastically beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka):  Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, on specifics, your Committee observed that the proliferation of tuition centres which is mostly the result of Government employed teachers forming cartels for pecuniary gain is as a result of very poor and demeaning conditions of service for teachers.

Consequently, the concept of remedial work per student in Government schools has been completely eroded contributing to the poor performance in Government schools.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was advancing a point with regard to the poor and demeaning conditions of services. Your Committee recommends that conditions of service for teachers need to be revised realistically so that the Government employed teachers do not spend time meant for pupils in Government schools on private tuition in order to meet their basic needs for survival. The Government should introduce a strict code of ethics for teachers in relation to their private tuition which affects work for which they are paid a Government salary.

In view of the erosion of the concept of remedial work in Government schools, there is urgent need to institute a revolutionary marshal action plan which will begin by bringing in a modern role in education that will address the current scenario.

Sir, your Committee further attribute the poor performance in most Government schools as compared to performance in privately-run schools and tuition centres to over-enrolment and overworked teachers, a situation which will, in turn, introduce serious pedagogical challenges for both teachers and pupils in that regard.

Additionally, lack of school infrastructure to take up all eligible pupils has led to a tutor system in most Government schools.

Mr Speaker, this leads to reduced chances for remedial classes for pupils with learning difficulties. This negatively affects the quality of education.

Sir, it is in this vein that your Committee recommend that the Government should, as a matter of urgency, expand school infrastructure at secondary and high school levels in order to address the issue of over-enrolment which results in teachers not only being overworked, but also decimate their ability to achieve the  timely development of children’s mental capacities.

Additionally, the Government should immediately employ all graduate teachers who are currently unemployed to ensure that there are enough teachers to offer quality education.

Furthermore, the Zambia Institute of Special Education (ZAMISE) should be converted into a college university and be customised in order to accommodate persons with special needs in order for it to provide the necessary trained manpower to handle learners with special learning requirements.

Mr Speaker, on Zambia’s attainment of Education for All (EFA) goals by 2015, it is note worthy to see that only one of the targets on universal access to completion of basic education has been addressed. There seems to be more hurdles on the other five goals on early childhood care and education, life skills, adult literacy, gender equality and all encompassing issues of quality.

For instance, the issue of early Childhood Education and Development (CED) has not even taken off despite it being midway towards the end of its completion. The Government’s complacency and failure to adhere to EFA protocols has a very serious negative impact on the trajectories of the EFA goals by 2015.

The Government must learn not to sign protocols such as the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) or All Inclusive Education and others without well thought through ideas.

Mr Speaker, we cannot work with institutions that we wished we had. We can only work with institutions that are within our disposal. Therefore, we should not just find it fashionable that the world trends are to sign protocols and, therefore, we should also sign even if we cannot afford to implement them.

It is a duty of the Government and no other person or, indeed, institution to effect these changes. In this regard, the Government must allocate resources to Early Childhood Education and Development (ECED) in order to make meaningful headway on this issue.

Issues of adult literacy, life skills and quality must be equally addressed in order for us to achieve meaningful development in this sector.

It should be noted that under Academic Production Units (APU), the same teachers handle both regular and APU pupils; consequently the level of attention to the individual learning needs of the pupils is less likely to be addressed as the teachers are overloaded and fatigued.

Sir, this, therefore, affects teacher productivity and quality of teaching. Moreover the additional responsibility has an effect on teachers’ lesson preparation time, monitoring of pupils performance and progress. Worse still all other academic and core curricular activities that used to take place in the afternoon have been abolished or even done away with under the private arrangements between concerned teachers and pupils in order to ensure that classrooms are left to be used for the APUs.

Mr Speaker, the above scenario has a bearing on quality and calibre of pupils who are coming out of our education system at different levels of education. In line with the topical issues, your Committee undertook tours of the following institutions: Ngulu Upper High School in Mbala, Mbala High School in Mbala, Mulambe Community School in Mungwi, Mungwi Technical High School in Mungwi, Chileshe Chipela School in Kasama, Sekela High School in Chingola, Kitwe College of Education in Kitwe, Zambia College of Distant Education in Luanshya, Ndola High School in Ndola under construction, Dora Tamani School in Lusaka, Excel Tuition Centre in Lusaka and The Zambia School of Special Education (ZAMISE) in Lusaka.

Mr Speaker, arising from our tour, your Committee has made some recommendations.

The circular withdrawing teachers’ rural hardship allowance should be withdrawn immediately because it de-motivates them to perform their functions.

Special Units with specialised teachers with the necessary learning materials should be introduced in most high schools for those with special needs in each province.

Recruitment of teachers should be continuous and ongoing.

In its current state with unqualified and untrained teachers and lack of necessary facilities such as laboratories, the basic school system is not working and impacts negatively on the quality of education. If the Government is unable to expeditiously address these two issues, it will be better to revert to the old school system.

The Government should conduct a study to determine the total number of children eligible to be in school as well as those that are not in the school system. The trend of spending money on unnecessary workshops by the Government has to be curbed and the money channelled to better programmes. In the same vein, the spending of money by the Government unnecessarily on bye-elections such as the one in Nchanga Constituency, right now, should be curbed. The Government should avoid enticing hon. Members to cross the floor.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Bwekeshapo nakabili.

Mr Nkombo: The money spent on such unnecessary ventures will be sufficient to deal with …

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member should stick to the text.

Mr Nkombo: The Government should expedite the building of technical schools similar to Ndola High School for girls in the remaining eight provinces. This should be done by 2011 and the same construction standards should be maintained.

In summation, your Committee sees the greatest hurdle that continues to be a concern to educationist as that of access to education through whichever means, be it through the hastily established basic school system without any corresponding increase in places in upper secondary schools or the APU which are a teacher parent driven initiative out of desperation.

Mr Speaker, the problems that have been created as a result of APU have already been dwelt on. Your Committee also learnt that creation of the basic schools concept is being emphasised at the expense of quality, resulting in children coming out of the school system at various levels without basic skills in literacy and numeracy.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, I would like to state here that I am a member of this Committee.

Looking at education in our country, it makes very sad reading. I will begin with private schools. These have mushroomed everywhere without much control. The Ministry of Education should move in and control the establishment of these high schools. I have a school near my home which is just a normal House, but it is a boarding school. So many children are staying in this house. Our inspectors must be monitored to see how they are making recommendations because they report to the ministry that they have inspected the place and it is good.

Sir, I would like to give one example of Barde Primary School where three children drowned in the dam. Not even a single teacher was living at the school and I do not see how anybody can recommend that children who are in Grade 2 or 3 can be on their own without a teacher to supervise them. This is very sad.

Mr Speaker, boarding facilities for primary schools from Grades 1 to 4 should be discouraged because this is a formation stage because this is a stage where a parent is supposed to know the child and mould it. I think the Ministry of Education needs to review this and see whether it is necessary for children from Grades 1 to 4 to be in boarding schools.

Sir, when we come to Education For All, this will be a dream that will not be realised if we do not tackle the problem seriously. When we talk about Education For All, we mean just that. I think we should domesticate some of these conventions that we sign so that they become law. If you say you are going to provide education for all and if I do not send my child to school, then I have a case to answer. If the Government does not provide education when it is supposed to be education for all, then parents can sue the Government.

Mr Speaker, another area which needs special attention is that of children with special needs. I think this is one area which has not received much attention. If one visited Chileshe Chepela School in Northern Province, one would shed tears. The school has no educational facilities. The children are miserable and do not even have adequate food. These are children who are very difficult to send to school on a daily basis considering the poverty levels of this country. The parents of these children may not have transport to take them to school everyday. We need institutions where parents can take these children, at least, for a term to learn, but what is happening to Chileshe Chepela is very sad.

Sir, the structure of special education in the ministry is a by-the-way. I would have loved to have a directorate of special education which will adequately pay attention to these children. I would love to have a director, hon. Minister, who is able to report adequately on these children, otherwise, we are not achieving anything. We should even stop saying Education For All because who is achieving this objective if we discriminate?

Mr Speaker, it is amazing that the Ministry of Education, which is spearheading Education For All, does not have equipment to use for people who are deaf and blind. We just think that everybody is going to come and listen to somebody who is speaking regardless of what they are doing.

Sir, because we have failed, we are coming up with fancy concepts like ‘inclusive learning’.

Hon. Opposition Members: Palibe!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I would like the Ministry of Education to look into this matter seriously. We should find schools for these people. You cannot mix able bodied children with those who are lame and cannot run fast or hear properly and say that it is inclusive. I know that they can play in the ground if that is what we mean, but they must have their own teachers and classes so that teachers can concentrate on these children.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: When it comes to education, I have lamented before, I am lamenting even now. Our curriculum needs to be reformed and not to be developed. Everyday you are talking about curriculum development, but what are we developing? We are developing something that is dead. Let us reform. You come up with fancy titles like education for skills, a holistic person, etc. If we do not reform the curriculum, we will not achieve anything. We should not educate our children to leave us to go and look for jobs elsewhere. We must train them to be self reliant, remain in the village and be innovative, as you are saying, to serve the communities where they come from.

Mr Kambwili: ‘George Weah’ uleumfwa!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, I would like to comment on APU. As my Chair alluded to, Hon. Minister, you must think seriously about abolishing it and build schools. It is sad that for all these years, over 20 years, we have never built a single secondary school.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mrs Sinyangwe: We believed that we were going to develop this country by Grade 7s. It is shameful to think that a country will be developed by Grade 7s. We cannot! We have made so many changes. While I appreciate that the people who come into this country want to help us, some of the changes that we have made through their help have not helped us. We were learning the vowels and we were very comfortable, but somebody came and told us that English medium was the best. Now, we have children who are just parroting. We keep on changing and these changes have not helped us. I propose that we moot the agenda ourselves and know what is best for us.

I am afraid, our friends who come also want jobs and they will continue changing so that they can come as technical assistants. When it is good and we are developing very well, it is bad for them. Therefore, we should learn to see where we are going. We should be able to analyse and be sure that we are going to achieve our goal.

Mr Speaker, the APU classes started as a stopgap measure. Unfortunately, the Government has been very comfortable with it even if it is a disaster. The results that come out are not very good. It is sad that when we have four students who have passed through APU, we want to celebrate and say that we have students who passed through APU. Why do we not have 100 per cent pass if it was a good system? We should look into this issue critically. We should not believe that a child at basic school is going to learn with a science kit. That is a toy! It does not provide much. We condemned it when I was in the ministry, but even now you are saying that children can learn science using a science kit. Let us be serious!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Sir, these are our children. They are our future leaders. Therefore, let us protect them. I know it might be expensive, but if we can, let us build on every year and we will get somewhere. We will not get money one day to build all the laboratories at once, but we should plan. The Ministry of Education, unfortunately, my dear brother, is a concern of every home. When I am not sick, I will forget about Hon. Chituwo (Ministry of Health) but education is always there in my house and I will always talk about it. Therefore, let us give our people what they really need.

Mr Speaker, let me also comment on the issue of Inspectors of Schools. We need to tell these people that they are inspectors and not standards officers. We must bring back the name for them to know why they go in the field. Their job is to inspect and make sure that the right thing is being done. Even then, I do not know whether we have adequate Inspectors of Schools. You will find that we have two inspectors per district. In a district like Mpika which is big, it will be very difficult for these inspectors to go and monitor these schools because of lack of transport.

Mr Speaker, teachers need to be motivated like the Chairman has alluded to. Wherever you go, you will find teachers complaining. We should give teachers what they deserve. I hope the hon. Minister of Education will be put on record as the first one to introduce the Home Ownership Scheme. Let our teachers build their own houses so that they stop singing about housing allowance. If somebody gets K100,000, it will be difficult for him or her to pay for accommodation. Our teachers are role models in the rural areas and we should accept this. Even where there is no other development, you will find a teacher. Teachers should not be beggars but should have the dignity that they deserve.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, a teacher must have peace because he needs to plan. I am a teacher by profession and I plan for the things I do. Even when I am doing something, for example, when we were launching the Keep Zambia Clean campaign, I used to plan what would be done the following day. When the day comes, I just put what I planed in place so that I do not make mistakes.

Now, if a teacher sleeps in a house where there is no electricity, how does he write his preparatory notes or mark the work in the evening? What happens when he goes to class the following day? He will just tell the children to read and he will start marking. This way, we will not get anywhere. I hope we will pay attention to this matter. We will support the hon. Minister of Education so that when it comes to Budget allocations, we know that the Ministry of Education needs a lot of money.

Sir, I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister of Education to have passion for his ministry. He should also go round the country and see what happens on the ground. Children can never learn while sitting on the floor because it is very uncomfortable. You can imagine children sitting in a classroom where there is no roof. This morning, I was asking why the same number of tables and desks could be sent everywhere because some areas are better than others. Therefore, we should first attend to areas that are really bad and make others understand the situation. Let us be fair in the distribution of learning institutions and equipment so that everybody benefits.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to say that there is a lot that needs to be done in the Ministry of Education. The attitude should be changed. I know we need some workshops because in teaching, you need new methods all the time and you can only share this information by meeting your fellow teachers and inspectors to know what they are doing. I am sure we can find a way of reducing on our workshops in the ministry. Sometimes, you go to the ministry and you would find that everybody has gone to the workshops and there is no one to attend to you.

Mr Speaker, I am very thankful that we have brought out salient features in our report. I hope the hon. Minister will be able to make a few changes every year so that by the end of five years, we will have made an impact.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion on the Floor of this House. I want to be very brief and highlight one item mentioned by the seconder. After that, I shall deal with the construction standards.

Sir, the Government has problems such as of putting up classroom blocks and houses for teachers. If we do not construct these houses or classroom blocks properly, they will not last. I stand here to just highlight this point which has to do with quality control. We know very well that if we do not control the quality, the life span of any structure is affected. Probably, instead of a building lasting for fifty years, it can only last for ten years. We know that if this happens, then it will be very expensive. If a building lasts for fifty years, there will be less maintenance. If it lasts less than that, there will be more maintenance. As we embark on building more schools and houses for teachers, I am worried about the issue of quality control, especially when it comes to the community contributing building materials. I am very comfortable when there is a contractor involved.

Sir, when the community is asked to contribute building materials like sand, stones and bricks, I get worried because they bring wrong materials such as decayed stones. I have experienced this in my constituency. Therefore, you will find that wrong sand and decayed stones are used. You cannot build a long lasting building out of these materials. In Western Province, there is special sand. If you want your building to last, you have to use the right sand and stones and these should be of the right size. I have seen a community breaking stones into different sizes even when the sizes are not supposed to be more than 20 millimeters. If it is more than that, then this weakens the structure or the concrete.

Hon. UNDP Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya: Mr Speaker, as we embark on the programme of building new schools and houses for teachers, we should also control the quality of building materials so that our structures can last longer. That way, we can save a lot of money. I am, therefore, appealing to the Ministry of Education to introduce a mechanism where even in rural areas, if a contractor is not constructing, the community is able to provide right building materials.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Misapa (Mporokoso): Thank you Mr Speaker…

Hon. Member: Stand up mudala.

Mr Misapa: I am standing up already, thank you.


Mr Misapa: I would like to look at the issue of tuition centres that have mushroomed all over the country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Misapa: We know very well that these centres have a purpose, that is to try and solve our Government’s problem. We also have the APU in the same situation.

It may seem as though our Government is slow at solving this problem. This is because it cannot manage to build a lot of schools at the same time. The Government knows very well that within the near future, it will be able to construct the schools that will make every child attain education. Therefore, we should not say the Government is not doing anything. It is moving in the right direction so that it is able to put things in place.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Misapa: Mr Speaker, improving teachers’ conditions of service will be done, but not in a day. However, the Government has seen that …

Ms Mumbi: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Ms Mumbi: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out if it is in order for a Committee member, in this case Hon. Misapa, to debate contrary to what the Committee have submitted to this House. I need your serious guidance.

Mr Speaker: With regard to the point of order that has been raised by the hon. Member for Munali, the ruling or guidance is that, under normal circumstances, hon. Members who comprise my Committee should arrive at the contents of their report unanimously and support their report.

I am not certain as to what extent the hon. Member for Mporokoso is departing from the contents of the Committee report. May the hon. Member continue, please?

Mr Misapa: Mr Speaker, I will cut to the throat. To begin with, I want to say that the Government is taking its time for this scenario to be corrected, the conditions of service for teachers have to be improved.

Hon. Member: Yes! Now, you are talking.

Mr Misapa: Actually, these are my points. It is only that when one is making an introduction, it becomes a bit something like that.


Mr Misapa: In this case, I am very certain that the Government knows that it has to improve the conditions of teachers in order for these tuition centres to phase out.

Further, I know that the Government is aware of the lack of infrastructure in schools and that if classrooms are not increased in schools, the tuition centres will continue. In terms of the teachers who are drilling the pupils in tuition centres, there is a question mark because we do not know their qualifications. As a result, we may think that they are drilling our children correctly, and yet they are disturbing their academic development.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Misapa: Therefore, on this part, the Government is advised to recruit highly qualified teachers and make sure that tuitions do not take place in independent places or house, but allow tuitions to continue in already existing schools where we have the right personnel to educate our children and prepare them for the final examinations.

As we handle the issue of ‘tuition’ schools, the Government must ensure all the tuition centres are closed. After that, the proprietors must be asked to make fresh applications so that the Government can have a chance to scrutinise them and ascertain if they have the right teachers and infrastructure for tuitions to take place.

Coming to the issue of the APU -I know that most of the work has been covered by my friends - I would like to advise that it will also be important for the Government to realise that most teachers spend more time on APU at the expense of regular classes. This means that most of the teachers are overworked and fail to balance and produce correct results for children to continue to tertiary stage.

Therefore, on this part, we would like to urge the Government to make sure that more schools are built and classrooms in old schools are increased to allow our Government, at the end of the day, to come up with children with a sound education.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, I will be very brief because my Committee report is coming as well.

Mr Speaker, education is key in national and human development. As I understand it, education will only take place effectively in a place where psychological, physical and infrastructural preparation has been realised. Therefore, it is important that the issue of good learning and teaching environment is critical in quality education attainment. I am, therefore, in support of the report and I would like to implore and appeal passionately to my professor that the learning environment should be addressed critically like people who have spoken before me have alluded to.

I remember that when we approved the Budget this year, there was an allocation made for procurement of desks, which is a key factor. If you can expedite action on that, Professor, you will have gone a long way in realising quality education.

Another important factor in the issue of staff motivation is the creation of a professional body which may be called Teachers’ Council or the Teachers’ Accreditation Board as it is written in the “Education, the future”.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, the only way we are going to regulate professionalism in the Ministry of Education is by establishing this body which will come up with ethics of professionalism such that effective teachers are identified and promoted like wise and those that fail to live up to the standard of education are discredited. That way, we are going to regulate and promote effective provision of quality education in our nation.

Mr Speaker, education is life and, therefore, learning cannot take place in a confused state, it should take place where the mind is at peace.

Mr Speaker, I want to say that the teacher/pupil ratio in Zambia is quite abnormal. I am a teacher and in 2003, even when I was a school manager, I loved teaching, but the ratio is quite unbearable. Eighty-five pupils to one teacher is not education. Neither is it teaching nor learning.

Mr Speaker, according to the Education Act of 1966, in secondary situation referred to as high schools today, a teacher was allowed to interact between twenty-five to thirty-five students in a classroom situation with desks, books and everything provided. Nowadays, the reverse is the case. If this can be addressed, we shall be moving towards realising quality education for the development of mother Zambia.

Mr Speaker, when I was on the mines, I was very sad to hear foreigners say that they could not employ a Zambian to move some machines because, in their opinion, Zambians were not qualified. My reaction was ‘what’?


Mr Chimbaka: My Chairman can bear witness. I frowned. Knowing me, he blinked to me and said, “Hold your fire.” I told him that I was disappointed and I never spoke throughout that meeting because it was an insult.

Sir, during the Zambianisation period, the first Head of State trained so many Zambians who are running companies in the United States of America, Europe and some medical doctors are in South Africa. This was possible because he provided every incentive for effective teaching and learning.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Therefore, what we desire to see is a professor trying to realise the dream of quality education even though it is virtually impracticable to realise universal education in the Zambian situation. On the issue of user fees, the real situation that is prevailing in the urban and rural areas is that although we are saying that there is free education in Zambia, it is not there.

Sir, on Monday, a group of parents came to see me and said that they were unable to send their children to go and write Grade 12 Examinations because there was a demand of K770,000 in order for a child to sit for examination. I wondered if we were moving forward or backward. Are we trying to sustain and prepare the young generation to take over from us as professors? Looking at the economic stand of the people in rural areas, I only shed tears and said, “Well, what next?” God will one day answer the people’s questions.

Like my sister ably said, all I am saying is that I am very happy that today she has spoken very well like I spoke in 2000 at Lilayi Lodge when I was leading the union and she was in the chair when we argued over standards officers. She may have forgotten, but I said, “These people who are coming with new concepts are only distorting the education system in Zambia.”

Sir, I remember that in those days with Standard VI, people could be Presidents and with Form II qualifications, they were effective Ministers because the education they attained was qualitative. Therefore, even today, if you went to Ethiopia, you would find people talking Amharic and their education is very effective and unique. Hence, they have the best airline in Africa. If you went to Tanzania today, you would find people busy speaking Swahili with a very well designed curriculum to drive Tanzania to higher heights, hence, the development they are talking about. If you went to South Africa, the country we helped to liberate from the apartheid regime, the education system they have is indigenous directed towards realising development backed by their vision. That is the type of education we desire.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: If we are to realize the 2030 vision and the Fifth National Development Plan and implement our budget effectively, we need to link our education system with our plans so that once they are in tandem, whoever comes after us shall work within the vision. Without that, we will fail to access K7 trillion even if money was appropriated. Why? It is because we do not understand what we are talking about. Therefore, let us prepare properly for posterity to come and appreciate our efforts.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Speaker, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Sikazwe: I stand to debate and not to hammer. Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion.

Mr Speaker, as the English saying goes, “An educated nation is a healthy nation. ” As long as there is education, people will understand how to prevent cholera which is a problem in the coming months.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, I stand to debate on EFA in line with MDG and vision 2015. Earlier, it was Local Government running the early childhood education. The Ministry of Education took over the responsibility of education and became the custodian of education in this country. Since 2004, we have not achieved anything as far as the early childhood education care is concerned. We do not have it in Chimbamilonga which is a rural constituency or Lusaka Central which is an urban constituency. To this effect, we are depriving the children of quality education because what we have are the expensive mushrooming nursery schools in this country compared to the free early childhood education we had under local Government.

Mr Speaker, I would like to suggest that as a matter of urgency, start this project in the rural areas because there are already nursery schools and people are able to pay even K1 million for the programme. For a two-year child, a parent is able to pay K1 million in most of these nursery schools which are mushrooming.

Sir, in Chimbamilonga, I want nursery education to be offered at primary schools so that a poor mother can take a child there to get good education. I want the BESSIP programme to be implemented fully.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, the BESSIP project was introduced to build infrastructure to enable pupils graduate from the middle basic school to upper school onward to higher school. This was intended to have proper candidates for Grade 10, but this project has not been well implemented.

However, I would like to support the report of the Committee and the response from the Government by starting building schools. However, we need to come to the drawing board and consider boarding schools.

In rural provinces, like Eastern Province, we have a lot of boarding schools and the cost of traveling from villages to these schools is very high and it has hindered the development of education in the rural areas.

Mr V. Mwale: Zoona!

Mr Sikazwe:  Mr Speaker, the Government should start building girls schools like they have done in Ndola. This gesture should be extended to places like Kaputa and Mungwi. There are a number of places that are disadvantaged as opposed to Ndola which has been given a high school next to Dag Hammerskjoёld site. These projects must be spread. Some rural areas have bigger populations than in Ndola and they need high schools. This must be considered and implemented. There is quite a big population in rural areas.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Speaker, during the elections, Northern Province did the best. It had about 168,000 votes which is the biggest, but it is still considered as a rural province.


Mr Sikazwe: Let us be compassionate to the rural sector because the people there are deprived of so many things. That is why there are early marriages in that area. The distances to high schools are very big. The cost of taking people from Nsumbu to Mporokoso costs K50,000. This is a distance of 70 kilometres.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Speaker, I am talking about infrastructure distribution. When the Ministry of Education goes to the drawing board, it must give a sacrifice to the urban areas. Some districts like Lusaka have twenty secondary schools, including private schools which are affordable and the places are always full. Can you go down to the rural areas and see what is happening there?

Hon. PF Members: Tell him!

Mr Sikazwe: The Deputy Speaker and I have been there and we do not have a secondary school in our area.

Sir, I suggest that priority of construction of secondary schools or high schools must go to the rural areas.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: It must be distributed equally as you did with the desks, where you distributed 1,250 per province. Let there be a school for each district. How can you build a school in Kasama where there are already two secondary schools? You need to go to Kaputa, Mporokoso and Luwingu with bigger catchments.

To this effect, we are going to achieve the EFA Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) before 2015.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: If this is not done, then we are not doing anything; the deadline will not be met.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi (Munali): Mr Speaker, I beg to support the motion on the Floor, to adopt the Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology.

Sir, as I stand here, I am mourning the educational death of my twenty-nine students in my constituency because of this Government they call “a listening Government”, which in my case is called “A Deaf Government.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi: Why do I say so? Twenty-nine children …

Mr Kambwili: Nga mulinokukoma amatwi komeni!

Ms Mumbi: … who are coming from a private school in Munali Constituency cannot write their exams even though this Government is saying, “Every child has a right to write the examinations”.

Why has this happened? It is because this Government has very good policies which are not publicised. We have a lot of community radio and television stations in Lusaka, which could have been used to disseminate this information to every parent so that they are aware that no private school can go and write an exam at a Government school. What we have seen is the curtailing the education of these twenty-nine children, and yet we are saying we need 50 per cent women representation on a decision-making level. Are we serious?

Mr Kambwili: No!

Ms Mumbi: Mr Speaker, the programmes are already there on paper. I can assure you that even this report, as good as it may be, it will be collecting dust somewhere. Implementation will be zero.

We have the inspectorate at the Ministry of Education which is supposed to be inspecting these so-called private schools. To me they do not even qualify to be called schools because they are being run in bars. Places which were beer halls before are turned into schools and are allowed to operate and they get money from our poor children some of whom are double orphans. They are selling tomatoes at Kaunda Square Market to pay their school fees for five years then you deny them the right to write their exams.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Ms Mumbi: I challenge every Member of Parliament in this House to go back to history. How many of the hon. Members even in this present House came from well to do families? I believe there are very few. Those people you are denying education in Kalingalinga, Mtendere and Kaunda Square, if their destiny is to come to this House, they are going to do it no matter how much you frustrate them as Government.

We have in this House some hon. Members who were chased from universities because they demonstrated in a way, God made a way for them and they are Members of Parliament in this House. You can never frustrate God’s people.

The problem that we have in this country is that if I am a doctor or professor, then it should end with me.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi: It should not go to anybody else.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Beebe!

Ms Mumbi: This nation is looking at you. It will not end up with you. It will go to our children even if you deny them good education. They will be professors, doctors, and state counsels of this country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Mumbi: Mr Speaker, this Government came to know about these twenty-nine children whose education has been curtailed on Tuesday, and yet something could have been done. They decided to ignore the children’s plight. These children could have been allowed to write the exams because there is a provision to write exams under protest. They kept quiet until they heard the Munali Member of Parliament mention it that is when they started running around from the workshops which they were attending. For how long are we going to have these workshops at the expense of the future leaders of this country? I wonder!

When one speaks the way I am speaking, this Government thinks we are frustrating them or trying to embarrass them. Oh no! We are not!

In the East, where the wise men come from, there is a saying which goes …


Ms Mumbi: … chenjele chenjele sazimeta bamene bamumeta niba ndani nibanzache, which simply means, no matter how clever you are, you can never shave your own hair. It has to be done by somebody else.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Ms Mumbi: So, we are seeing these mistakes and we are trying to help you to improve. Whether you laugh or do whatever you want, we are trying to help you to improve.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Ms Mumbi: We have a situation at Munali High School for the disabled and this has already been mentioned in this House. Our children do not have electric pots or even decent pots, let alone stoves for them to use but we just smile and pretend things are all right. Is your mind okay? I doubt it. Can you imagine this is happening here in the town of Lusaka, children using firewood to cook and you feel comfortable with such a situation? When we say every child has a right to education, we should mean what we say. The inspectorate at the ministry should have teeth to bite. When they go to inspect schools, they should take recommendations to somebody higher, …

Mr Kambwili: Nchekelako.

Ms Mumbi: … but it takes so long for those schools to be closed. The system should be effective by instructing those inspectors to close these bars which operate as private schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! The House is repeating itself. Is there any single hon. Member of Parliament who has one new point?

Mr Kanyanyamina raised his hand.

Mr Speaker: I see a raised hand over there.


Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Kanchibiya has a new point. Can we briefly hear the new points?

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this motion. If we have to achieve the Millennium Development Goals (MGGs) on education for all, we need to be very careful as parents of the children of this country. This is because while our time is gone, we have the future of our children to look after.

Mr Speaker, if you look at the Constitution of 1968, it is a right of every Zambian today to read and write. Today, we are talking of MDGs. Why did we not implement these before? According to the research by Professor Kelly from the University of Zambia, we need to support heavily the community schools. Today, the attitude of the Ministry of Education is that community school means people-based school and they do not need to be supported adequately. I once worked for the Ministry of Education and we were handling a project called ZECAB which saw the birth of BEBS. This was meant to give proper bursaries which were very effective unlike the shameless bursaries that we are getting from this Government where you give a poor child from the rural areas or a poor child from the shanty compound one book and you think that child will be able to use the book for the rest of the year.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Professor Kelly, in his research said community schools need to be there because one, they will solve a girl child from being abused by either unruly teacher or fellow old pupils and that it will bring closer the education to the door step to accord a chance to a young girl who cannot walk long distances. Professor Kelly highlighted this by saying that the Government, like the other debaters have said, cannot manage. We understand and we sympathise with you, but have passion, Professor, otherwise, without education you would not have been a professor. He added that the Government alone cannot sort out the problem of building infrastructure for the schools.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Hence, the European Union helped us by setting an example to put up community schools. Now, what do we experience in these community schools? Most pupils still sit on the floor, and yet desks and chairs are budgeted for this year. Next year, we will have problems to approve the budget because you are not putting the money to good use. We are still waiting for the desks in Kanchibiya. That is why you see most children in my constituency write like Chinese instead of English …


Mr Kanyanyamina: The reason is that they have to kneel down when writing instead of sitting on desks.


Mr Kanyanyamina: I have many points except that I cannot flout the rules of this House because the Speaker gave me one point to clarify. The hon. Minister should support community schools sufficiently.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishimba: Mr Speaker, I thank the Members of Parliament who have made contributions to the debate to adopt the report on the Committee of Education, Science and Technology.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Question put and agreed to.{mospagebreak}


Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour for the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 26th September, 2007.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, your Committee considered three items, namely: the adequacy of Zambia’s investment policy, the economic partnership agreements and the food security pack programme.

In pursuit of answers to the numerous concerns from different sectors of the country on the quality of investment coming into Zambia, your Committee interrogated the adequacy of Zambia’s Investment Policy through oral and written submissions from the Government and from the private sector.

The Government was represented by the ministries of Commerce, Trade and Industry, Mines and Minerals Development and Labour and Social Security as well as the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) which is an apex institution responsible for investment. On the other hand, the private sector was represented by Konkola Copper Mines, the Economics Association of Zambia and Zambia Business Forum which is an umbrella body of various business associations.

While appreciating the growing foreign direct investment coming into the country, your Committee contend that the level of total investment in Zambia ought to increase, at least, three-fold for the economy to grow at a level where it may have a positive impact on the lives of the people. With limited availability of local investment funds, this growth can only be fostered through increased Foreign Direct Investment (FDI). In 2005, when global FDI stood at US$916 billion, Africa had 3 per cent share at US$27.48 billion with Zambia only attracting a paltry US$250 million. The globalised economy in which we live today demands that we increase this figure drastically if we are to achieve real economic advancement.

While promoting foreign investment, your Committee is of the strong view that the Government must develop investment objectives that ensure medium and long-term economic stability.

While aiming at increasing FDI, the Government must not pursue laissez-faire investment policies which impact negatively on total investment. Your Committee recommend that the Government should put in place mechanisms to monitor foreign investment and foreign investors in Zambia because some of the investment that has been brought into the country has the potential of harming the economy, investment environment, livelihood of the people and generally, the physical environment.

Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that the lack of a robust mechanism for monitoring investment has enabled the invasion of Zambia by unscrupulous investors. Some of these sham investors operate in all other activities than the ones for which they applied for investment on immigration permits. Your Committee contend that nshima cooking, chips-frying, fly-by-night foreign investors must not be given any room in Zambia if Zambia is to benefit from globalisation.

Sir, your Committee further recommend the enforcement of regulations that stimulate backward and forward linkages between foreign and local enterprises. While proficiency could be lacking among some local entrepreneurs, it is undisputable that there are many well equipped local entrepreneurs who are sidelined by foreign investors. Unless the local investors are protected to build their capacities and skills levels, local investors shall be drowned by the floods of globalisation, the consequences of which shall be an economy that is totally in the control of foreign investors. This has serious repercussions on wealth distribution and sovereignty. Remember the famous words of James Garfield, President of the United States of America, when in 1881 he said the following words:

“Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is the master of all its legislation and commerce.”

Mr Speaker, there is no reason why the Government should give more lucrative investment terms to foreign investors than to local investors. For instance, why should import rebates be accorded to foreign investors only and not to local entrepreneurs for importing consumables? This simply increases the cost of doing business for locals in favour of foreign investors. This is one of the reasons why foreign investors import overalls that can easily be manufactured locally, even by our womenfolk in their backyards. It is worth noting that quite a number of the consumer products that we import, say from China, are actually manufactured by small entrepreneurs in their backyards. China promotes its small-scale local industry by ensuring that there is cross sector fertilisation between the large and the small-scale sector. If there is anything at all that can be learnt from our Chinese friends, it is this kind of arrangement.

Sir, despite Government’s intentions for a favourable and stable macro-economic environment, Zambia’s local industries have remained uncompetitive, partly because of the reasons I have already advanced. Other reasons are clearly limited access to and inadequate finance, high cost of fuel and limited access to markets, high cost of utilities and poor communication and transport infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, let me now turn specifically to your Committee’s tour of and meetings at Konkola Mines in Chingola. Your Committee were impressed with the rapid heavy investments that are being made in copper ore extraction. At Konkola Deep Mining Project alone, US$400 million is being invested to expand production from two million tonnes to six million tonnes per annum and to extend the lifespan of the mine until the year 2035. A Greenfield Oxide Oil Open Pit Mine has been commissioned at Fitwaola. The deepest shaft in Africa at the depth of 1,490 metres is being sunk at Konkola Deep Mine. The company has also embarked on another equally prestigious US$300 million investment in the Nchanga Smelter, which will also be the largest in Africa.

Sir, the company currently has a labour force of 23,000, including more than 4,000 professionals. Some 1,500 school leavers have been employed and some have been offered training in various fields. With the new developments, Konkola Copper Mines will require additional labour. These specialised skills in hydrology, exploration, smelter operations and sulphuric acid plant management will be secured from around the globe as they are said not to be available locally.

Mr Speaker, hon. Members of your Committee will comment on most aspects of Konkola Copper Mine’s operations.

Nonetheless, Sir, allow me to just touch on two issues. Zambia has been a mining country for many years and has a critical mass of professionals in various mining fields. Granted, some of these professionals are working outside the country, but many others may still be within. Therefore, it is important for the Government to speedily conduct a skills gap analysis to ascertain that only people with unavailable skills are employed from outside Zambia. Further, your Committee urge the Government to insist that Konkola Copper Mines and any other foreign investor for that matter, who import skills, must put in place a deliberate programme for locals to take over these positions. This can be done in three ways:

(i) through implementing a well designed skills transfer system to be monitored regularly and evaluated by Government;

(ii) to insist that the investors sponsor locals to undertake training from the required skills; and

(iii) by facilitating local institutions to introduce training programmes for skills which will be required in large numbers.

Mr Speaker, the national objective should be that within a reasonable period of time, locals acquire the requisite skills and take over the positions held by foreigners. We cannot buy the notion that qualified foreign engineers, irrespective of whether they come from America or China, can be brought into Zambia to push wheelbarrows.

The second matter that I would like to comment on concerns development agreements. Your Committee are aware that development agreements are a very thorny matter. Nonetheless, the exploitation of such a lucrative and exhaustible natural resource is equally a thorny matter.

Mr Speaker, eight years ago, copper prices on the London Metal Exchange were at their lowest, investment in the mines were not forthcoming and the lifespan of the mines was estimated to be up to a maximum of 20 years. We were told that no one was willing to buy the mines. On the other hand, the donors led by the World Bank and International Monetary Fund (IMF) threatened to withhold the much needed debt relief and other forms of aid if we did not private the mines, which they said to have been losing US$1 million per day.

Based on this advice and the fear to lose the dosage of the cure from debt relief, aid and loans, the Government privatised the mines on terms that were extremely lucrative for the buyers. This included entering into development agreements which were unconstitutional and providing for 0.6 per cent mineral royalty as opposed to the legislated 3 per cent and the African average of between 5 to 10 per cent.

Sir, over the last eight years, that gloomy picture has turned into Leornado Da Vinci’s Mona Lisa. Copper prices are at their highest. The lifespan of the mines have doubled notwithstanding the fact that new investment has also doubled the rate at which the ore is being extracted. However, at what benefit to Zambia? What will be shown to future generations as the reason for excavating the earth if these mineral resources does not impact on the daily lives of Zambians, the majority of Zambians are living below a dollar a day, the Government is failing to provide portable water to its citizens because of limited resources and 2,000 children are being forced to cram in a school that is meant for only 400, as has been reported by your Committee on Education concerning Mungwi High School? A school that was built for 400 children is today accommodating 2,000.

Sir, while your Committee appreciate that the investors are spending some money on social corporate responsibilities, it is only correct that the wind falls for Zambia, in the same way that it fell for Britain when the current Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, imposed windfall tax on the North Sea Oil Industry when oil prices increased.

It is your Committee’s strong recommendation that the Government should immediately enter into a process of revising taxation of the mines. After all, we have been vindicated that the negotiations were lopsided and that we were hoodwinked into selling the mines for a song by representatives of powerful economies which are now benefiting from the mining operations in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, Paul Collier, a former Director of the Development Research Group at the World Bank and more recently a senior advisor to the Blair Commission on Africa, speaking at the ‘Battle of Ideas’ meeting last week argued that the development agreements signed by Zambia with copper mining companies were a disgrace and should be renegotiated. Paul Collier who is the author of a recently published book called “The Bottom Billion”, blamed his former employers at the World Bank for posting their most junior economists as advisors to Zambia on the privatisation of the mines. This voluntary admission of guilt by those who were involved in offloading our mines should give the Government the courage and impetus to demand a fairer deal for the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, your Committee acknowledged that agreements are a matter of morality and trustworthiness. However, our role as politicians is to safeguard the interest of the citizens and as it has been said before politics is not the art of the possible. It consists of choosing between the disastrous and the unpalatable. The MMD New Deal Government is faced with this challenge. They will have to choose either disaster for Zambia by shying away from demanding an increase in the royalty and other taxes or choose the unpalatable which anyhow will benefit the people of Zambia. That is the unfortunate position in which they find themselves, but a choice ought to be made.

Sir, the other two matters that your Committee considered were the Economic Partnership Agreements and the food security packs. My colleagues on your Committee, with your permission, will address most of the salient issues on these two.

Allow me to just thank you, Mr Speaker, on behalf of the Committee for affording them an opportunity to interact with civil society and the Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) Secretariat on the sensitive issue of Economic Partnership Agreements (EPA). Allow me also to commend the African Parliamentarian Network Against Corruption for organising these workshops. Most of us learnt a lot concerning the EPAs. Serve for these committees, we should have been asking what kind of animal EPAs is. Now, more of us understand what Economic Partnership Agreements are all about.

The Committee are also delighted to note that the Government is treading with caution on signing the EPAs. It is your Committee’s hope that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry shall keep Parliament informed of all developments on this very important subject.

Sir, your Committee wish to implore you to consider, including some Members of your Committee on committees that are involved on issues of the World Trade Organisation, African Caribbean Pacific /European Union, United Nations Conference on Trade and Development, COMESA and Southern Africa Development Community. This will streamline the information flow through your Committee to this House as this is the committee you have charged the responsibility of superintending over matters of trade, commerce and the economy in general. It is only fit that hon. Members of your Committee are represented on committees that look at those matters.

Concerning the food security pack, all I wish to state is that your Committee is happy to note that the programme had improved productivity for its beneficiaries in the area that we visited of Chiawa, by increasing crop yields from an average of less than 5x50 kilogramme bags of maize per lima to 18 x 50 kilogram bags per lima.

Further, the programme had successfully introduced improved varieties of traditional crops such as cassava, sorghum and millet which are high yielding and early maturing. Farmers are now able to yield an average of 12 metric tonnes of cassava per hectare, 2 metric tonnes of sorghum per hectare and 1 metric tonne of millet per hectare which is more than double what they would obtain without improved seeds. For improved varieties of cassava, the maturity period has been reduced from 3 years to about 6 months. This is commendable and the Programme Against Malnutrition deserves to be commended by this House.

Your Committee, therefore, recommend that the programme be scaled up without delay in order to reach as many vulnerable, but viable farmers as possible and enhance household food security in the country as a whole.

Mr Speaker, having said this, I wish to conclude by expressing my gratitude and that of your Committee to all the stakeholders who appeared before the Committee and acknowledge their full co-operation and support.

Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to record their indebtedness and gratitude to you for affording them the opportunity to serve on this important Committee. In doing so, I wish to take advantage of this opportunity to request you to give your Committee another opportunity to evaluate the FSP in other areas where it is being implemented. This is the only way that Parliament will have a better picture of the challenges facing the programme.


Mr Lubinda: Allow me also to thank fellow Members of the Committee for according me an opportunity to chair this important Committee. I am greatly indebted to them for the confidence they showed in me and their unfailing support during the time that I have been their chairperson.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): I wish to speak now, Sir.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the motion which has been ably moved by the Chairperson, I wish to touch on a few areas. I will be very brief since the Chairperson has ably articulated some of the issues contained in your report and to give chance to the other hon. Members to debate your report effectively.

Indeed, Sir, your Committee received various submissions on the adequacy of Zambia’s legal and policy framework on investment. Most of the stakeholders who appeared before your Committee submitted that not only was a current policy on investment inadequate, but there was also lack of implementation of the policy on the part of the Government. Your Committee urge the Government to strengthen the current policy on investment while at the same time ensuring that the new policy is religiously implemented. It is very costly to spend huge amounts of public resources only to come up with a policy that is not implemented.

Mr Speaker, allow me to talk about Economic Partnership Agreements (EPAs). I wish to implore the Government to seriously consider various recommendations from concerned groups before coming up with the position on the issue.

Mr Speaker, being a woman myself, I am alive to the fact that regular policies, particularly those involving rich and poor countries, ultimately affect women and children. Therefore, if EPAs are allowed to come into effect, industries in Zambia and particularly small-scale businesses with their inherent constraints will be most affected. While the importance for Zambia to be well integrated into international trading environment cannot be over emphasised and assenting to protocols and other agreements such as the EPAs is likely to broaden or widen its exports and subsequently increase the nation’s income, there is no guarantee that the same will be adequately achieved. This is, but one side of the multi-faceted issue.

Mr Speaker, allow me to take the House on a three dimension view of the EPAs. Sir, while Zambia praises herself about the fact that it is a signatory to the Sugar Protocol, as could be seen as lately as yesterday when the hon. Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry reiterated when answering a question for oral answer, I wish to inform this House that it is the same Sugar Protocol that saw the collapse of the economy of Fiji, a country which was very highly dependent on sugar exports.

Mr Speaker, the other view is that if we do not sign the EPAs, we are bound to suffer negative consequences when our exports to the European Union (EU) are slapped with import duty, making them uncompetitive. A typical example is Mauritius’ economy that was slapped with duty on textile exports to the EU making their products compete unfavourably with products from the Far East.

Mr Speaker, the question is: need the Government, therefore, sign these EPAs? The answer is no. Why? Zambia is among the Least Developed Countries, LDCs, and will, therefore, continue to benefit in terms of exporting to the EU under the Everything But Arms Provision (EBPs). The question again is whether this should excite the Zambians and the Government. The answer again is no. The terms and conditions of all these things are unilaterally arrived at by these powerful economies and it is, therefore, possible that the goal post can be shifted unilaterally as they deem necessary. What then is left of us as far as the EPAs are concerned?

Mr Speaker, your Committee urge this Government to bargain or rather negotiate for an extension of time, a factor which raised an issue right from the beginning of the negotiations of the EPAs.

Regarding the Food Security Park (FSP), your Committee observe that there was a general misunderstanding among the beneficiaries on the criteria used to select persons to benefit from the programme. This goes to show that the criteria that were being used to select beneficiaries were not transparent.

Your Committee, therefore, recommend that selection criteria for persons to benefit from the programme be carefully outlined and all communities sensitised about it so as to minimise feelings of animosity among those not selected in particular seasons. This will always involve the members of the community themselves.

Sir, your Committee were concerned that some of the communities that were visited were not willing to engage in other forms of agriculture because of inadequate knowledge and limited skills.

Your Committee recommend that beneficiaries be sensitised on the importance of engaging themselves in alternative forms of livelihood such as rearing animals, bee-keeping, fish and livestock farming by the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives. This is the only way that the programme can truly promote food security even during periods of poor crop harvests.

Sir, in conclusion, I wish to emphasise that it would have been more beneficial for the Committee if they had undertaken the study of the food security programme pack in all areas where it was being implemented seeing that the farming conditions vary from place to place. You may wish to consider this suggestion in the next sitting of the House.

With these few remarks, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, I beg to support the adoption of the report by the whole House.

Mr Speaker, the economy is the engine that drives any nation. Many issues that we debate on this Floor ultimately hinge on the economy. Even when we are talking about education, the poor standards that prevail all over the country especially in rural areas, ultimately, those can only be addressed if we take our economy on the right footing.

Mr Speaker, the Chairperson of this committee as the proposer of this motion and the seconder have been very adequate in delivering the message to this House. There are many issues that require to be addressed in this economy.

Mr Speaker, there are three ultimate targets that this nation has signed itself to. The first one is the Fifth National Development Plan, the Millennium Development Goals and, indeed, the Vision 2030. All these are very good plans in their own right and if we can achieve these missions, we will move from one stage of under development to that of relative high development.

Alas, Sir, in order for us to achieve these goals, it is necessary that all of us as a nation take a different step in ensuring that we achieve the targets we set ourselves.

Mr Speaker, let me start with the Vision 2030. At the moment, as we all know, the Gross Domestic Product of this nation is K43 trillion, this is equivalent to roughly US$10 billion. If you look at that figure and apply simple arithmetic, in order for us to be a medium income country by the year 2030, we shall …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours


Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, when business was suspended, I was making the point that when we make plans, we must make plans that right from the beginning we know are workable.

I was emphasising a point on the three major plans we have driving this country forward. In particular, I was referring to the Vision 2030 which sees this country becoming a medium income country by the year 2030. I was saying that the parameters that will enable us reach that status are not right. I was making reference to the Growth Domestic Product (GDP) which, at the moment, stands at US$10 billion. Currently, the medium income countries, the ones that we have compared, extrapolated over our population, means that for us to be medium income today, we have to have a GDP of US$30 billion.

Therefore, if we are to be medium income by the year 2030, it means that the current day medium income countries will not wait for us, they will also grow. When I do my calculations, it means by the year 2030, in order for any country to qualify to become a medium income country, it will need to have a GDP of US$100 billion. In order for us to have US$100 billion as a growth from US$10 billion of today, it means that you have to grow by 12 per cent to 13 per cent annually.

However, if we look at the statistics that have been given to us, our economy for this year is budgeted to grow at 7 per cent. Whether we will grow by that per cent is another matter. In any case, it is too little. If we are to grow at 7 per cent annually, it means that we can only reach medium income countries status by the year 2045 and not 2030.

Madam Speaker, if you look at other parameters like inflation, in our Budget this year which is another plan, we factored in 5 per cent as average inflation for the year 2007. It was only announced this month that inflation had come down to a single digit figure of 9 per cent. If in October, we are still struggling at 9 per cent, what chances are there that by the end of the year, we will achieve an average of 5 per cent?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: It is not possible!

Madam Speaker, if you look at other parameters, it is clear that to achieve these, good as they are, we need to do better. We can achieve a growth rate of 12 per cent or 13 per cent or even higher because other countries are doing it. China and India are in that ballpark. We can do that provided we do a number of things in the way we manage our economy.

This country is blessed by the minerals that we have all over. We have copper grades that other countries only dream about. We have oxide ores. Earlier on, we were talking about Konkola Deep, but we also have oxide ores which need to be exploited. The current mines also need to continue with their production. I am thankful to the Chairman of the committee for what he said concerning what is happening at Konkola Deep.

However, these developments need to be for the benefit of Zambia. Currently, they are not. The 7 per cent growth rate that has been factored into our economy is, first of all, inadequate as I have said and secondly, it is lopsided.

Madam Speaker, it is like when you have a home, your total net-worth is the items that you have. If you are in the village, you could have a basket of cassava and two bundles of fish, but if you have a visitor from the Copperbelt who is a trader in fish and he stays for two weeks with you, he will have bought so many bundles of fish. A visitor coming to assess your household will not only count your fish, but even the fish that belongs to that visitor. It is not part of your GDP.

Madam Speaker, I say this because currently most of that growth of 7 per cent is dedicated on the mines which are owned by foreigners.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Even though we are claiming that the money is part of our GDP, it is not our money, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: We need to have greater involvement of local ownership in the exploitation of natural resources.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: You do not have to have money to own shares. You do not have to have degrees to own shares. We must recognise that our privatisation process, as the Chairman explained, was forced upon us because of the circumstances some of which were not right. The issue that the mining industry at the time was losing US$1 million per day is debatable. It is false! You look at the Yellow Books over those years and let anyone give me a line that showed that money was being voted by this House to the extent of US$1 million every month.


Mr Milupi: There is nothing like that! It could have meant that annually US$365 million would have been voted by this House to support the mining industry. However, it suited those whose interest was to change the ownership to them so that they could reap greater rewards.

Madam Speaker, time is now ripe. We have stood time and again in this House to advise those on the Front Bench that we need to restructure the agreements that were signed so that Zambia can benefit from her resources.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Unfortunately, there are those that have taken the position to be apologists for investors; those who are afraid to raise the royalties from 0.6 per cent to 3 per cent when the world average is 5 per cent. What are we scared of?

Hon. Opposition Members: Dr!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, the other areas that we need to develop in order for us to achieve the Vision 2030 and other goals is that we need to develop is the agricultural sector. In the UNIP Government, there was emphasis on developing the agricultural sector.

This is a sleeping giant which when awakened will cause us to achieve these goals. A proper economy that Zambia should aim for is roughly one-third mines, one-third agriculture and one third other support industries like tourism and the service industry. When we do that, we will have a balanced economy.

Madam Speaker, at the moment, tourism is again predicated on the basis of foreigners coming to visit our lodges. It is set up to service those coming from outside. In other countries, where tourism is a major contributor to the economy, foreign tourists are, but the icing on the cake and the base is the local people. First of all, the locals must be encouraged to be investors in the tourism industry as my brother, the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is.

Mr Kambwili: Kozo Lodge!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, they must also be encouraged to be tourists in their own right. The other area that can help this economy grow is the subject we were talking about earlier today, that of education. If we educate our people well as other countries did, it will be a major contributor to the economy of this country. It is not only about having skilled labour, but also the possibility of exporting that labour as some countries such as Philippine, India, Egypt and Nigeria have done. These are sending money back to their own countries.

Madam Speaker, in order for our economy to grow in the rates that we want, up to 12 per cent, 13 per cent or even to higher percentages, it is necessary that the infrastructure of this country is developed in a much more serious manner. When we undertake projects such as schools, hospitals, roads, canals and bridges, these projects must be done timely, they must have quality and cost-effective.

Mr Lubinda: Hammer!

Mr Milupi: At the moment, that is not happening. If we do not achieve a rate of return on projects that we undertake, there is no way we can achieve the right developmental goals.

Madam Speaker, let me refer to the last subject of your Committee which is labour issues. Labour issues are very important. We must look after our own people in terms of employment. Even in liberalised countries like Britain, you cannot just take anybody to work for you. Even the diplomats that we have sent there, it is very difficult for them to get a nanny to work for them. You have to prove that you have no local.

However, the investors that come nowadays – I was disturbed when in answer to the question posed to him on the smelters, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development said that there are no Zambians that can man the smelter that has been put up. It made me shudder because for a long time, as a senior man at ZCCM, I was in-charge of the engineering A-panel where we promoted engineers from various levels to the level of general manager. I know, as many people do that in terms of the mining industry and technical service, we had achieved a mere 100 per cent Zambianisation.

Madam Speaker these are facts…

Hon. Member: Chinese prisoners.

Mr Milupi: How can our skills have retrogressed so much that, today, we are saying that we need people from outside? What has happened to the people that we trained and were manning all those positions? Where are they? We must encourage them.

Madam Speaker, earlier we were talking about education. I want to focus on education in the science and technical fields, as well as computer literacy. I want to urge my brother, the Hon. Minister of Education, Professor Lungwangwa, that this country will only survive if we give greater focus to the teaching of science subjects, mathematics and other technical subjects. It is the improvement of teaching these subjects that will give us a skills base to run our industry, not only mines but other industries as well. When we do all these things hon. Members, we will find that we will be able to move this country forward so that we achieve the things that we have set ourselves to achieve.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, just to deal with the interjections coming from the Front Bench, I was there from 1991 to 1993. From 1996 to 2001, I was in Lima Party which is not responsible for privatising any mines. I want to connect three things.

Firstly, the state of our social and physical infrastructure. The other is the competitiveness of domestically controlled and domestically owned industries which include tourism, manufacturing, agriculture and fisheries. The third is our management of foreign investment in this country.

I wish to show that they are intimately connected and that out there in the real world, it is Christmas time for primary producers, only we insist it is lent. We have the opportunity to convert. For example, I see the Deputy Minister of Fashion (Professor Fashion Phiri) is looking at me very intently.


Dr Scott: I was in his constituency the other day driving along a road streamed with potholes and very sandy.  I was in a Four Wheel Drive, low ratio and I came to a folk in the road.  I asked one of the locals which way goes to where and he said that was not a road, but a river bed. I asked him where the road was and I was directed to a road which was actually worse for transport than the river bed.


Dr Scott: The price of milisi was dropping every kilometre because the traders were breaking their axles, working their tyres, damaging their sample and generally having to pay the earth to move a few bags of maize from the villages back to the main road. The infrastructure in this country is a complete disgrace. I know the rains were heavy so that the roads became rivers and the rivers became roads, but nonetheless …


Dr Scott: … I am sure that if I go back there today, there will be no change. The change will only come if the grader that has been there this year, which  was there until  the eve of elections when he was elected and we saw it going down the road back to Chipata while people were voting, goes back, goes back.

I wish to connect that with the competitiveness of this country. Everybody agrees that the domestic industry in this country is not competitive. You cannot manufacture anything in this country and compete with the Namibians, Tswanas, Zimbabweans, Malawians or any body else. You cannot compete.

You can compete where you have natural resources that are exceptional, you can compete in Luangwa valley at the top end of the tourist market. Of course, you can compete in copper and cobalt because it is there and incidentally, that is why the investors are here, they want our natural resources. However, you cannot compete if you are a small ordinary domestic producer or exporter of something which is labour or skills intensive. If you ask why, it is connected to the business of how we handle the foreign investors.

Madam Speaker, ZESCO is going to hike the prices massively. They are telling us that we must accept it. Why? This is because this Government has a religious or is it talk time-based belief in the sanctity of development agreements that were drawn up by children from the World Bank, according to my information. They sent out people to practise negotiating in Zambia. They had to be subsidised with electricity and you and I have to pay the subsidy. Nobody else can pay the subsidy; it is either them or we have to pay even the small thing.

Madam Speaker, wives or husbands of hon. Members are complaining that they cannot even sell a chicken in Lusaka today because they are being produced along with cabbage and carrots by Chinese farmers.


Dr Scott: I have taken note that the Ministry of Home Affairs only issues temporal work permits or whatever to skilled people, and yet these people are supposed to be rocket scientists and perhaps they are breeding the chickens to fire them to the moon with their rocket later this year.


Dr Scott: However, at the same time, they are selling the surplus chickens, the ones which are not required as astronauts to us.


Dr Scott: Therefore, you have engineers pushing wheelbarrows…


Dr Scott: … and rocket scientists producing chickens and pushing wheelbarrows. It is impinging on us and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: …on the Zambian production. Even at the top end and wives and husbands of the people sitting nodding on the other side of the House unconsciously.


Dr Scott: It is impinging on Zambian productivities and competitiveness. Why is the price of cement so high? This is because there is a boom in the mining industry. I would not object if Lumwana Mine when it has finished investing all that cement was able to reduce my taxes, costs and my fuel costs and so forth. The question is why are they getting the cement at the factory price when you and I will not even build a small pond in our garden or an extension house for our spare children …


Dr Scott: … or to fulfill our tradition? Spare children exist in Lusaka.

Hon. Member: Ask Peter Daka.


Dr Scott: Ask Peter Daka, indeed!


Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Madam.

Madam Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central in order to tell us about the death of chickens and forgetting to tell us about how he crucified 1000 pigs?


Mr Muyanda: Was that development? Is he in order to mislead this House? I need your fair ruling.


Madam Speaker: Order! The hon. Member on the Floor has heard the concern of the other hon. Member and since the hon. Member for Lusaka Central brought in the slaughter of chickens, he should take this into consideration.

You may continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Madam Speaker, with your indulgence, I will treat this as a humour of society.


Dr Scott: There is no reason to go back to 1993 and start talking about matters unconnected to the …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: I think we have to realise that the owner of Vedanta Resources which has the lion’s share of KCM, the same year that he bought into Konkola Copper Mines (KCM), he pledged US$1 billion to build a new university equal to Cambridge, Oxford or Harvard. Not Harding.


Dr Scott: Proper top notch, top rate, not a Bible College, but a proper university.


Dr Scott: US $1 billion …

Hon. Member: Which university?

Dr Scott: … in India, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: In India. He was going to spend profits from Chingola and take them to India and build a university. What is he doing? Yes, it is very nice to be doing a bit of HIV/AIDS work or home care and so on and so forth, but does this Government want the Zambians to get the benefit of foreign investment from their chifundo or uluse or from the social responsibility. Is that how you intend to tax people who are extracting our natural resources?

Madam Speaker, we have been in this House for just over a year now and from this side of the House, right at the beginning, we raised the question of renegotiation of the mining agreements. Even my swine fever-concerned friends were with us …


Dr Scott: … on this matter …


Dr Scott: They understood it better than they understand swine fever.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Hon. Member, speak through the Chair.


Dr Scott: Madam, I know you understand it because we had it before the Committee.

We on this side proposed a compromise and the Minister of Finance and National Planning agreed that attempts would be made. I cannot remember the exact wording, that Government was committed to renegotiation of the development agreement. 
Now, it was only last week I saw in the newspapers an account that the Government was in the process of hiring foreign consultants to assist them in the renegotiation. This is now nearly a year after this issue had been raised to assist in commencing, if you like, the renegotiation of the development agreements. Are we serious?

Hon. PF Members: No!

Dr Scott: It cannot be the case that this Government is in any way truly committed that Zambia gets a whole pound of flesh. Of course, the investors must also get their pound of flesh, but there is no sign at all.

The hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone (Mr Sikota) mentioned the other day, not in this House I believe it was outside, that he had asked the management of Mopani Copper Mines (MCM) how the renegotiations were going. The answer was, “They have not called us.” This was during a visit of the Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism less than two months ago.

So, it is very difficult where you are used to a language of using parliamentary terms. People being economical with the truth is the least you could say about the frequent assurances we have from that side of the House. They say that they are vigorous and Zambia centred and that negotiations are in progress when not. I challenge anybody from the other side of the House, especially the Vice-President, my opposite Member …


Dr Scott: … although he is much more recently in his party than I am in mine.


Dr Scott: He also came by the direct jump …


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Order! Hon. Member, that kind of debate will attract a lot of response and heckling from other Members. My advice is that you stick to the motion and speak through the Chair.

You may continue.

Dr Scott: I do apologise if I am falling short of my normal standard and I shall attempt to raise it.

I just want to finish off, with your indulgence, the comment on the food security pack part of the report. The Committee went to Chiawa and they quote some very spectacular increases, the use of cassava, millet sorghum and maize. I should just clarify for the sake of the House generally, that these increases have been obtained on what in Chiawa they call matobo gardens. These are gardens which are very near the Zambezi River and they tend to be damp on the ground anyway. Because of that, you can also use water or flash water onto them and they grow 12 months a year. The people even grow winter maize, they have been doing that for the last 200 years.


Dr Scott: The problem that I have is that earlier today, we had an answer from the Minister of Agriculture and Cooperatives on the subject of what inputs are being delivered into Kaoma and the question was asked by the Member of Parliament for Luampa.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yah!

Dr Scott: The question concerned what fertiliser, what top dressing, what basal fertiliser and what seed and we had a list of seeds such as millet, maize, potatoes and so forth. The very straight answer was that they only deal in fertiliser and maize seed. That is all they deal with in Kaoma. This is despite Kaoma being on the Kalahari sand and being rather poor maize area.

We should just remind ourselves that this Government has yet to implement anything resembling a proper policy of diversification, where it is not just the maize grower who gets the subsidise, but also the cotton grower, the cassava grower and the cattle rears so that we have an even playing field for people in different environments. Otherwise, we will have a repeat of what happened in 1992 when I was the Minister. The maize crop simply failed in its tracks and not just here, but in all neighbouring countries as well.

Madam Speaker, we need to diversify in order to strengthen the economic independence of our peasant farmers or small-farmers whatever you want to call them. It needs to be done and not just in Chiawa were someone is doing a demonstration on a matobo field, but throughout the country as a matter of serious committed policy. So, when people talk about the agricultural achievements of the New Deal, they should not mean the maize crop chabe because actually if I were to take many other crops such as tobacco, cotton and so forth you will find they are dropping.

So, let us have a balanced view of my favourite industry and try and get it as diversified as it is in Chiawa. The people in Chiawa, apart from having to cope with wild elephants and hippos coming to damage their crops and threaten their lives, they also know that if their crop fails and they are just on the margins - they are outside the rail bar of the Central Government to a very large extent - they can die. So, they take care of themselves and that should be a lesson for the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the Economic Affairs and Labour Committee Report. I wish to compliment the Chairperson of the Committee and the seconder for a report well written with some amount of clear thinking as to what direction we should be going in terms of investment in the mines, economic partnerships and the need to feed ourselves.

Madam Speaker, the issue of development agreements and, indeed, the windfall tax which we did raise on this side of the House during the debate of the Budget in January and February has been sufficiently covered. Against that background, therefore, I will leave that for others to tread on what I think has been well covered.

Madam Speaker, may I talk about something I am very passionate about. These are the Economic Partnerships Agreements. Attempts have been made in this report to explain what these agreements are and how they will affect our people getting their Gross Domestic Products (GDP) because it is stifled half way before it enters their pocket.

Madam Speaker, in my opinion, the eminent December, 31st deadline for signing these Economic Partnerships Agreements between African Caribbean and Pacific (ACP) countries and ourselves will not be the end of the world. I would like to believe that, in fact, we all know about the need for compatibility of our trading patterns and regimes with the World Trade Organisation (WTO) in 2008. But as usual, as an ACP group we waited for the pressure to come.

I believe that we should withhold and stand against this pressure. The Commissioner for Trade in the European Union, Mr Manderson, recently said that they would not allow ACP countries have a rabid-calm of the heart by the end of December. I think he was bluffing.

The Cotonou Agreement’s lifespan is up to the year 2020. The development agenda with the Cotonou Agreement has been thrown back into the go-around which is inconclusive from the year 2001 to date. Meanwhile, the second important thing in that Cotonou Agreement, which the political agenda is democratising, has also now been pushed to the year 2020. With regard to the issue of trade which is important to us, we are saying that they should buy our raw materials with some value addition at the right price then we will buy their finished goods. They are now bringing it forward and are saying that we have to be compatible with WTO of which we are a member by signing these Economic Partnerships Agreements as nations and groups.

Madam, these partnerships agreements are not good to the least developed countries such as Zambia in their present form. They can be improved upon. Why are the Europeans not talking about the need to release the several European Development Funds (EDF)? We are still on the tenth EDF. Why do they not raise the amount of money for aid in order for us to deal with the supply constraints which they know will help us produce quality products for them to compete on their market? They should be able to help us.

There is no reason why ACP countries should be bulldozed in signing these things. In any event, whether Zambia signs these EPAs now or not, she and thirty other countries have neither here nor there of the direct benefits, other than the exploitation of our resources.

Madam Speaker, the United States of America, Japan and Europe need to remove the subsidies on agriculture where we ACP countries are strongest. They are protecting subsidies in the United States. In France, they have even gone further to try to make certain agricultural practices a heritage.

Madam Speaker, yes, we all want to have signed agreements, but there should not be any shortcuts to these economic partnerships because very few countries actually understand what this all means. I will put it across to you that what it means for malpreferences for bananas, sugar, tuna and beef in Botswana - for the Caribbeans, I am aware that the whole region is meeting on this issue in Haiti to take a stand against the Europeans and I do hope that when the hon. Minister responds, he will inform us that the African group will also meet so that we reject this.

It merely means that some of the countries in the Caribbean, the growers of bananas are going bananas in the literal sense because they have lost income. Look at countries like Fiji and Mauritius; they have gone from several sugar factories to four. Tuna is now at 35 per cent into the European market. Kenya and Zimbabwe, which I had mentioned, are the only ones who may have a flicker kind of benefit if they sign these economic agreements, but even they are being adversely affected by this.

Imagine Botswana today without their beef going to the European Union because they will have introduced sanitary regulations against them. They will be bound by these rules and regulations. They have removed the preferences. So, the general services systems are unacceptable and hon. Minister, if the article I read in The Post yesterday is anything to go by and that is the reflection of your thinking together with your Government, I will support you right through because it is the correct position.

I want to also state very clearly here that the countries that I have mentioned are middle income countries. We are least developed countries and we are thirty-nine. Now, the interests of the group of four are not in our interest. The needs of Brazil, South Africa and India are exactly the same as Japan in as far as resources and markets are concerned. As for our neighbours, - and the Vice-President will probably remember the Botha Constellation of State Principles which made Dr Kaunda and Dr Nyerere go to the Nordic countries to start SADC. This will be coming and we shall be a market.

Madam Speaker, look at the breweries today, South African Breweries is controlling beer from Cape Town right to the border of Kenya. They bought the soft drink plants, more canned drinks are coming in thereby creating jobs in their country. Only the Kenyans stopped them. Yes, they are brothers, indeed, and the only difference is that it was Botha and now it is Mbeki, but the truth is that this country will be turned into a market for South Africa, Brazil, and India. In this case, hon. Minister, I am aware they are saying we should work together. The needs of the group of twenty-two are not the same as for the group of thirty-nine. Our real interest is a group of ninety. Let us go as we did in Cancun and Hong-Kong and argue and seek a waiver of these Economic Partnerships Agreements. It is possible to have a waiver because we are not ready to …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

(Debate adjourned)




The Vice-President (Mr Rupiah Banda): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1916 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 1st November, 2007.