DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 7th February, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER
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ANNOUNCEMENT

SENSITISATION WORKSHOP FOR MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Works and Supply will conduct a sensitisation workshop for Members of Parliament in the Auditorium, here at the Parliament Buildings, on Monday, 11th February, 2008. The Workshop starts at 08 30 hours.

The purpose of the Workshop is to enlighten honourable Members on issues related to the 2008 Annual Work Plans on Roads and Bridge Infrastructure and Public/Private Partnerships.

These are important subjects and honourable Members are encouraged to attend the Workshop.

I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

AGRICULTURAL LAND IN CHOMA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

119. Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) what efforts had been made to resolve the critical demand for agricultural land in Choma Parliamentary Constituency;

(b) whether there were any plans to de-gazette the Batoka State Ranch to resolve the critical shortage of agricultural land at (a) above; and

(c) whether the Government would consider re-possessing parts of some commercial farms to solve the problem at (a) above.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, the Government has and is still making a lot of efforts in addressing the critical demand for agricultural land, not only in Choma Parliamentary Constituency, but also in the entire country. Among the recent developments, the Government has identified and is opening up new farming blocks (of not less than 100,000 hectares) in each of the nine provinces. For the Southern Province where Choma Parliamentary Constituency falls, the identified farming block of 100,000 hectares is Simango in Kazungula District.

Specifically, for Choma Parliamentary Constituency, the Government, in the recent past, re-demarcated close to 6,025 hectares and allocated them to 541 settlers broken down as follows:
 

Re-demarcated Area/Farm         Land Size (Ha)            No. of Beneficiaries/Settlers
 

Harmony                                                    1,200                                    132
Sibanyati                                                    1,222                                      68
Siamambo                                                     432                                      40
Maleba                                                       207.7                                      30
Sikalongo                                                   2,153                                    150
Mochipapa                                                    810                                    121
Total                                                        6,024.7                                    541

Unfortunately, some of these farms are not being fully utilised. Further, Muzoka Farm, No. 1034, with 2,331 hectares has currently been submitted to the Commissioner of Lands for numbering so as to facilitate subsequent allocation to another ninety-nine settlers in need of land.

In Choma Parliamentary Constituency and the district as a whole, there is close to 200 prospecting farmers, among them, retired and/or civil servants about to retire, some of whom are earmarked for this settlement.

As for part (b) of the question, there are no immediate plans to de-gazette the former Batoka State Ranch Farm No. 1,945 that has only 823 hectares, as it is adequately being traced for research and extension services with 1,5002 cattle and 628 goats. The farm/ranch is currently the reservoir of livestock (cattle and goats) for the Livestock Restocking Programme in the Southern Province.

Hamaundu and Singani Chiefdoms that fall under the Constituency have enough land, if only the chiefs could be persuaded to allow their subjects to hold title to the land as demand for land increases. The area Member of Parliament could be instrumental in this issue.

As for part (c) of the question, the Government has considered repossessing and has already repossessed parts of some commercial farms to address the problem of high demand for agricultural land in the Constituency.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that all the villages surrounding the Batoka State Ranch at the moment do not benefit anything from this farm because the cattle and goats that are there can only be managed, if anything, by the people on your right and on your left? Therefore, I would like him to inform the House what the people who are living around that area are benefiting from this farm.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, to the contrary, most of the surrounding villages are actually benefiting from this ranch because most of the people who look after the cattle and goats are from the surrounding areas. They are employed there and are, therefore, benefiting in terms of economic employment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, they want to demarcate Simango Village which has been there for over a hundred years now. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what has happened. What have we done to deserve this kind of harassment from the Government which is supposed to protect us? I am around sixty years old and I was born in that village.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, I said that 432 hectares have already been allocated to forty beneficiaries. We are not going to demarcate this village further. These settlers are already there. Therefore, the other village is just reserved for the chief to look after unless, as we have suggested, the chief will then be in a position to release some more land for settlement. Otherwise, the forty beneficiaries have already settled there.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I wonder if the hon. Minister could clarify his statement on obtaining title deeds in chiefs’ areas. Given the prohibitive planning costs at the district level and the prohibitive red tape throughout the system, what is the relevance of talking about people, who are living in the Southern Province or elsewhere, obtaining title deeds to small blocks of land?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, there is procedure in any Government’s dealings. Therefore, there has to be a procedure in obtaining land to be legally binding or belonging to you.

Mr Speaker, apart from the piece of land belonging to you, the relevance of a title is that it can be used to obtain a loan either from a bank or any other lending facility. It helps you to acquire that which you may not acquire if you do not have anything else.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: (walking into the Chamber) Enani wakwebele ati enchito ya title deed iyo?

BUTONDO AND CHIBOLYA POLICE POST

121. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) when Butondo Police Station in Kankoyo Parliamentary Constituency would be provided with transport;

(b) when the cell at Chibolya Police Post in Kankoyo Parliamentary Constituency would be rehabilitated; and

 (c) when the police post at (b) above would be gazetted.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kankoyo wants to know …

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Minister, your answer sheet is blocking the microphone.

Mr Bonshe: I am much obliged, Sir. I repeat my answer. 

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha walked into the Chamber.

Mr Kambwili: Bachikwata umwenso nomba baunmfwa bwino.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, Butondo Police Station has been provided with a Nissan Hard Body vehicle.

With regard to part (b) of the question, the cell at Chibolya Police Post will be rehabilitated as soon as funds are made available for this project.

As for part (c) of the question, the process of gazetting Chibolya Police Post has started.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker. I would like to find out when this hard body was allocated to Butondo Police Post because as at the weekend, I was in Kankoyo Constituency and, particularly Butondo, but I did not see this vehicle he is talking about.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Speaker, we have issued out all the hard bodies to the Copperbelt Central Division and they are the ones that are going to distribute the vehicles.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Aunfwa bwino, wamona ka?

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what the Ministry is doing to ensure that they replace the vehicles that were initially distributed because most of them are not operational.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, before we replace them, we have to repair them. As soon as the Budget is through, our repair mechanism will start and then we can continue to replace the vehicles as the years elapse.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. There are some Police Posts, for example, in Matero , the Muchinga Police Post, which used to be a small house, but sits on a very big piece of land. Is the hon. Minister thinking of renovating that place so that it can accommodate more police men because currently you just find one policeman on duty, and without transport.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Before I call on the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to answer, I would like remind the House to be relevant to the question that is on the Order Paper. This particular question refers to issues in Kankoyo Parliamentary Constituency. However, if the hon. Minister has an answer to the question related to Matero, he may provide it.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, not only in Matero, but for many other police posts where there is ample land and adequate buildings, we will continue to carry out renovations. We are targeting those pieces of land to construct houses for the policemen and police women. We have done that for Kasama and for a number of Copperbelt towns, where we have identified extra land. We are going to erect the houses thereon. Where the buildings are good, we can renovate them.  Therefore, I will ask the hon. Member of Parliament for Matero to particularly write to me on this matter so that we can see how best we can help this police post.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, the issue of non-availability of transport at Kankoyo affects other police stations countrywide, especially in rural Zambia. Could the hon. Minister tell us how he expects the police to perform to the best of their abilities in the absence of necessary transport?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, the modern methods of policing are at various stages. There are stages of mobility where a vehicle is used. Where vehicles cannot reach, such as in some rural areas, we provide bicycles for policemen to access areas of crime. In other cases, police officers walk.

Mr Speaker, we have bought many vehicles and have issued out to many police centres. Therefore, wherever there is a need for transport in the country, division headquarters are now giving out these vehicles to their subordinate units. I believe that it is going to be the same even for Mpika District and the rest of the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Do I see someone indicating in the back there?

Hon. Members: There is no one.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the issues of transport and fuel are interrelated. When will the Ministry consider monthly allocations for fuel for police stations countrywide?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I wish to state that mechanisms for that facility have already been put in place. Units are given money which they can use to buy their own fuel. The budget allocation may be too small to trickle down to the lowest echelon, but we hope that we can improve this facility in the next budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the consequences of policemen and women working at Kankoyo Police Station which is not gazetted in terms of their working conditions are.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, let me answer the hon. Member of Parliament for Kwacha in a manner that shall help him understand that police do not have to operate from wherever the police are stationed. Therefore, the consequences are that they will arrest all the thieves around that place.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Ms Phiri (Luanshya): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the infrastructure of the cells at Chibolya Police Station will be made gender sensitive because at the moment, we have rundown cells which are not gender sensitive.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, indeed, the hon. Member of Parliament is right. Initially, cells were built because womenfolk were not committing any criminal offences. There were no criminals among the womenfolk.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Most criminals were men, but now, we have seen an upswing …

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … in the number of criminal offences committed by the womenfolk. Therefore, we will, accordingly, go ahead and ensure that the cells are gender sensitive.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

INDIAN NATIONALS EMPLOYED BY KONKOLA COPPER MINES PLC.

122. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how many Indian nationals had been brought into the country by the Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc to work on the following projects:

(i) Acid Plant Project; and 
(ii) Smelter Project; and

(b) what the trades of the Indian nationals at (a) above were.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that a total of fourteen Indian nationals have been brought into the country by KCM. The contractors engaged by KCM to work on the smelter have engaged others.

The Indian nationals brought in by the contractors were engaged because of their expertise since they have built smelters elsewhere in India. They are here specifically for the project and will leave together with their principals when the contract is completed. It must be noted that the acid plant is part of the smelter project.

With regard to part (b) of the question, the trades of the Indian nationals brought in by KCM are:

 Number            Trade
    1                Specialist Metallurgists
   13               Project Engineers, Metallurgists, Process Engineers

Most of the Indian nationals brought by the contractors are mainly copper pipe makers, cable joiners, automations, specialist and structural technicians who are complementary to the project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to state the total number of Indian nationals employed at KCM. Being the mother company, it should be in a position to know the total number of Indian nationals employed directly by KCM and those engaged by the contractors.

We would like to know how many Indian nationals have been employed by KCM because when you go to Chingola now, it is like you are in Bombay. We would like to find out how many Indians have been brought in under this project.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the company has nothing to hide. As I said, there are fourteen Indian nationals who where brought in by KCM and are employees of KCM. However, to finish the project on time, the contractors themselves engaged in 634 Indians.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that some of these Indian nationals are, in actual fact, management trainees.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, hon. Members should not to confuse issues. The question on the Floor of the House is about the acid plant and the smelter project. However, the Ministry is fully aware that there are these management exchange programmes which are undertaken by KCM. Under these programmes, Zambian nationals are seconded to Vedanta projects outside Zambia. Indians or other nationals who are working elsewhere under the Vedanta Group of Companies are seconded to Zambia. It is an exchange programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I am assuming that to construct an acid plant, you need skills, but those skills must be individual skills. Is the hon. Minister telling me that he needs fourteen plus 634 skills to build an acid plant? How is it possible that we need 634 skills and how were the 634 given work permits? I need an explanation.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the question was very specific and it was about the Acid Plant Project and the Smelter Project which have been treated as one. The hon. Member for Mbabala who was a General Manager in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) knows fully well that projects are always given a timeframe within which they are to be completed. Now, in this project, the vendor had to bring in his own personnel so that he could complete the project, as required by the persons who wanted it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear,hear!

Reverend Sampa-Bredit (Chawama): Mr Speaker, is there any deliberate policy that requires people of foreign nationals to speak our official language for them to be recruited to work in Zambia.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it appears the questions are cross cutting. Some of them border on the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and the Ministry of Home Affairs. However, the official language in Zambia is English.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm to this House that these 634 workers are labourers and nothing else?

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, whether you we are managers or general workers, we are all labourers.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! “Labourer” is a Latin word for worker.

Laughter

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, we are saying that we have brought in 634 skilled workers to build that Acid Plant and a smelter in my constituency. That is a very big pool of skill. If truly these people are skilled, are there any efforts to pass on these skills to the people in Zambia so that the skill is retained instead of letting such a big pool of skill go back without it being transferred to Zambians?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, in one of my responses, I mentioned that there are some exchange programmes which are run by the Vedanta Resources that should be recommended in that Zambians are seconded to projects that Vedanta Resources is undertaking elsewhere. I indicated that the Indian nationals brought in by the contractors have expertise and have built smelters in India before. They are here specifically for the project and will live together with their principals when the contract is completed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister accept that in terms of copper smelting, Zambia is by far better than India that has a very limited smelting capacity? Would he also accept that at no time, whatsoever, has there been so many expatriates involved during the building stage of all the major projects in mining, starting with the Mufulira Mining at Depth, Mindola Re-deepening, Smelter Project at Chambishi, Chibuluma South Mine and the Modernisation of the Nkana and Mufulira Smelter?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to confirm that, just like the hon. Member for Luena, we are proud Zambians and know that there is a big high calibre of Zambians who were trained in related fields in the mining industry.

However, the hon. Member should realise that the vendor of the equipment would like to see that the plant is constructed and commissioned so that nobody is liable, in case something goes wrong.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the fact that the hon. Minister, when answering the question initially decided not to reveal that there are 634 skills, and only mentioned the fourteen skills, is, in itself, very scandalous. Can the hon. Minister confirm that the Government policy that has been implemented in this country, for many years, of only bringing in people with the skills that are not available in the country to work while the Zambians do the other jobs has now been abandoned? I have said this because at the moment, anybody can come in and bring everybody, including sweepers and cleaners to work and displace the Zambians. Can he confirm that?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the veteran politician for his follow up question. There is no change of policy in this country. I would, therefore, like to state that in terms of policy, some of these matters fall under the Ministry of Labour and Social Security as the portfolio relevant to deal with such issues.

Mr Speaker, this Government is committed to ensuring that the Zambians who are qualified hold these positions. However, may I be quick to add that these mines were privatised and, therefore, we should be mindful that the owners of those mines have a say in the management.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. {mospagebreak}

LOCAL COURTS IN CHASEFU PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

123. Mr C. K. Banda, SC. (Chasefu) to ask the Minister of Justice:

(a) when the following local courts in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency would be rehabilitated:

(i) Emusa Local Court;

(ii) Phikamalaza Local Court; and

(iii) Mwata Local Court; and

(b) when court sessions at Mwata Local Court would resume.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the bad state of local court buildings in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency. However, due to budgetary constraints, it has not been possible to accommodate the rehabilitation of the court buildings in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency. Therefore, I am unable to say when they will be rehabilitated.

Sir, court sessions at Mwata Local Court resumed in November, 2007. The court is serviced by officers from the surrounding local courts. The Mwata Local Court will have its permanent staff this year, 2008.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. K. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell the House why permanent staff will be sent to Mwata Local Court when in fact, there is no court building. In addition, can the hon. Minister tell this House how he expects workers at the Phikamalaza Local Court to work when the courtroom building is falling apart?

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I must thank my learned friend for bringing those facts to my attention. However, the answer that I have given is the information which I received from the Judiciary, and the information that has been here given will be communicated to the Judiciary.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell this House what type of courses or orientations are extended to the local court Justices countrywide.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, the Judiciary conducts various types of courses or training for local court Justices. I can confirm that training is conducted and the type of courses offered are those which are relevant to the work of local court Justices. That is the general answer I can give, as a bonus, to the question which is not related to the which is on the Order Paper.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

REPLACEMENT OF SOLAR PANELS AT MWASEMPHANGWE ZONAL HEALTH CENTRE

124. Mr I. Banda (Lumezi) asked the Minister of Health when the solar panels which were stolen two years ago at Mwasemphangwe Zonal Health Centre in the Eastern Province would be replaced with new ones.

The Minister of Health (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, The solar panel theft was reported to the police and they have indicated that investigations are still going on. Meanwhile, the District Health Management Team is working with the community in the area to see how security can be improved at the Health Centre. The Ministry has made a provision in this year’s Budget to replace the solar panels.

Mr Speaker, there is a need to improve the security in our communities by involving all stakeholders as Lundazi District has lost solar panels in five other health centres in the last two years.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr I. Banda: Mr Speaker is the hon. Minister aware that the solar energy was used to pump water into the tank to supply the clinic and the community around that area? Can the hon. Minister now state when he will solve that problem to alleviate the shortage of water?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, I am aware because I have visited the health centre. It is on the programme that, indeed, we have to replace solar panels big enough to drive the submersible water pump.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

YOUTH GROUPS AND INDIVIDUAL YOUTHS WHO ACCESSED THE YOUTH DEVELOPMENT FUND

125. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development:

(a) how many youth groups and individual youths had so far accessed the Youth Development Fund in the Luapula Province, constituency by constituency; and

(b) how much money was given to each recipient.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, a total number of 108 youth groups accessed the Constituency Youth Development Fund (CYDF) in the Luapula Province and there were no individual beneficiaries. However, going by the statistics given in terms of members of the various groups, an estimated number of 3,485 youths have benefited through the various projects that have accessed the said funds.

Mr Speaker, the answer to part (b) of the question is quite long and detailed. However, with the indulgence of Mr Speaker, I wish to ask that I present the response in summary at the constituency level, and further, if I am allowed, lay the detailed answer on the Table.

Mr Speaker, beginning with Mansa Central Constituency, it was decided that the entire K40 million be given to the construction of a Youth Resource Centre in Mansa District.

Hon. Government member: Hear, hear!

Mr Taima: This was after the two constituencies in the district resolved to have this project embarked on. This led to another decision by Bahati Constituency to allocate K28 million out of their K40 million towards the construction of the said youth resource centre. In Bahati Constituency, the remaining K12 million was given to the United Church of Zambia (UCZ) Saint Paul’s Congregation Boys Brigade, which used the funds to procure musical instruments for the Brigade’s Band.

Mr Speaker, I chose to furnish the House with a little more information on this constituency because that is where the hon. Member comes from. However, for the rest of the constituencies, as I requested, I will give summary answers.

Mr Speaker, eleven youth groups in Nchelenge Constituency applied and were picked and allocated a total of K39 million.

Sir, Bangweulu Constituency had eight applicants picked and a total of K35 million was allocated to these eight groups.

Mr Speaker, Luapula Constituency had five applicants picked and a total of K40 million was disbursed thereto.

Mr Speaker, Chifunabuli Constituency has fourteen applicants picked and a total amount of K 40 million was disbursed thereto

Sir, Kawambwa Central Constituency had seventeen applicants picked with a total of K35, 213, 000 given.

Mr Speaker, Pambashe Constituency had nineteen applicants, as groups. Their applications were approved and a total of K37, 300,000 was given.

Mr Speaker, in Mwansabombwe Constituency there were twelve groups whose applications were approved and a total amount of K46, 009,000 was allocated.

Mr Speaker, Mwense Constituency had eight applicants with a total amount of K39, 200, 000 given out.

Mr Speaker, Mambilima Constituency had eight groups whose applications were approved and K39, 200,000 was thereto allocated.

Mr Speaker, Chipili Constituency had fourteen groups with K36, 080,000 disbursed.

Sir, Chienge Constituency had about five youth groups that applied and K39, 500,000 was approved and allocated to Chienge.

Mr Speaker, finally, Chembe Constituency had twenty groups with approved applications and a total of K39 million was allocated.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Taima laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development has ever carried out a research to establish …

Mr Matongo: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! I can hear a point of order being raised.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, as you may be aware, sport, and football in particular, is almost the forth estate in this Republic. It is also a very uniting game. With that background, Sir, I wish, through you, to find out whether I would not be presumptive in asking whether it is not appropriate, a few days after the Zambia National Football Team returned from Ghana and the hon. Minister having threatened to withdraw funding to FAZ, that the House be informed regarding the following:

i. what went wrong at those games; and

ii. what authority could have given my baby brother and hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, in whom I am well pleased, to actually threaten, through the media, to withdraw the money appropriated by this Parliament last year and to be appropriated this year to FAZ.

I need your kind guidance in this regard because we need to know. Is he in order, Sir?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! Apparently, the hon. Member for Pemba is speaking for a sizeable section of not only this House, but also the nation that whishes to hear from the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development what happened in Ghana regarding the Zambia National Football Team and the threatened fall out therefrom.

My ruling is that I believe that the hon. Minister is now ready to come to this House and brief it and the nation as to what happened in Ghana, and other consequent issues that he may wish to discuss with the nation. We still have adequate time and, therefore, let me him come to this House, as soon as he is ready. The Chair will only be too glad to grant him the authority to interact with this House through a ministerial statement.

There was a follow up question. The hon. Member for Bahati may continue.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, has the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development ever conducted research to establish the training needs of the youth in Mansa and Bahati, in particular, before thinking of constructing a new youth centre and yet there is the Mansa Skills Training Centre, which is under enrolled, and there are three youth established camps in Bahati Parliamentary Constituency which need resources to be fully operationalised?

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Mr Speaker, this was the feeling of the vulnerable youths of the constituency in question. It is not the Ministry which decided. I went to Mansa and it was the need expressed by the youths themselves.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: The Skills Training Centre, which the hon. Minister is referring to, requires a certain qualification to be admitted, but this one is going to accept even a person who has never been to school.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that in some constituencies, the money has not been spent because District Commissioners (DCs), and some hon. Members of Parliament, have failed to agree on who appoints the committee.

Mr Speaker, in some areas, the money has been spent without the knowledge of the hon. Members of Parliament. If he is aware, what is he doing about that?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister has given answers for all constituencies in Luapula and there is no indication that there is a constituency where the money is still in the banks. As regards hon. Members being absent, the committees are not comprised by the hon. Members of Parliament alone. There are other members who comprise those committees which approve the applications. Therefore, if the hon. Member was absent, that could not stop the group from going ahead as long as there was a quorum.

 I thank you, Sir.
 
Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm whether it is true that the Government is receiving K100,000 from applicants for the Youth Development Fund and if so, for what purpose is this money being received?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I cannot confirm because I have not heard of any such requirements.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, this is just a follow up question to the hon. Member for Chipili as regards to the disbursement of the Youth Development Fund. Would the hon. Minister tell this House and the nation whether it is true that all the constituencies have had their funds disbursed? If not, what are the reasons? We think the reasons are that of the composition of such committees which are mainly partisan in nature and mostly MMD.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I am not aware that there is a constituency where the money is not disbursed. On the basis of these committees being comprised of MMD, it is not true because there are Church Members and hon. Members of Parliament, NGOs and there is no political party in any of these committees as per the guidelines.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, some District Commissioners (DC) have been politicising the disbursement of this Fund. How will the hon. Minister ensure that impartiality is exercised in the disbursement of this Fund?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I do not know of any DC who is a politician.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Namulambe: All the DCs are civil servants.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Namulambe: As such, there is no politicisation of this Fund.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Mr Speaker, who is supposed to scrutinise the applications and come up with approvals? Is it the committee or the hon. Minister, together with District Commissioners? I am saying so because this happened in Chililabombwe where the committee was overlooked.

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I just want to remind the hon. Member of Parliament to look at the guidelines. The approvals are scrutinised by the committees in the respective districts. No Minister gives any approvals because the guidelines are very clear.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development should be giving factual answers. I am the Member of Parliament of Nkana Constituency …

Mr Speaker: Order! What is your follow up question?

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the K40 million Youth Development Fund meant for Nkana Constituency has not been utilised to date.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I have not yet received a report from his constituency that the money has not yet been released. However, there is a team that is going round the country to monitor the management of the Fund. I will look at the report then advise the Member of Parliament accordingly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell this House and the nation about the results of the audit conducted in Luapula on the funds, which he had promised? Further, does he consider sending auditors to Mwense where there has been an outcry on how this money has been spent?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, the auditors are still going round to all the 150 constituencies and are yet to conclude their task.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, now that the hon. Minister realises that this Fund is popular and has helped a lot of youths in the country, …

Hon. Opposition Member: It has not helped any youths!

Mrs Musokotwane: In Katombola Constituency it has.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: … is it possible for him to reintroduce the Fund and increase from K40 million to K80 or 100 million?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, I had stated earlier on the Floor of this House that we are not going to reintroduce the Constituency Youth Development Fund because of the squabbles and conflicts this money has brought about in some constituencies. First of all, we thought that we should see how the funds that were disbursed were going to work, then come up with a system as to whether we can continue with it or not.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Chair is very generous on this question, any more Members wanting to ask supplementary questions? I see the hon. Member for Roan.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, from the outcry of the Members, it is evident that DCs are a stumbling block to the disbursement of this Fund.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: What is the hon. Minister going to do to ensure that the DCs are not bottlenecks on these particular funds?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, as the case is for Luanshya and Roan Constituency in particular, the problem is not with the DC, but with the Member of Parliament for Roan himself.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, why should the Ministry disadvantage the constituencies that have performed well at the expense of those that have failed to perform?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, we plan for the whole nation. Therefore, we wait until we make assessments on the performance of the whole nation in general.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, why is it that most of these problems occur on the Copperbelt and Luapula provinces? Is it on account that these areas are manned by Opposition Members of Parliament?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Why is it that the hon. Minister wants Members of Parliament to be mere passengers on these committees by saying that even if Members of Parliament are not there, they can do what they want so long as a quorum is formed?

Mr D. Mwila: Quality! Hear, hear!

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, the problems are mainly on the Copperbelt and Luapula, but mainly on the Copperbelt because some Members of Parliament feel they should use the same money to compensate the people who campaigned for them and yet this money is supposed be used by the youth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister should be specific where it comes …

Mr Mubika: Face the Speaker!

Mr Ntundu: Will you listen, Hon. Mubika!

Mr Speaker: Order! Address the Chair!

Mr Ntundu: (Pointing at the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development): I would like the hon. Minister to be very specific …

Mr Speaker: That finger! That finger!

Laughter
Mr Ntundu: Through you, Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to be specific. A number of times some of these hon. Ministers have accused …

Interruptions

Mr Ntundu: … hon. Members of Parliament of mismanaging some funds. I would like the hon. Minister to be specific on which of these constituencies he is talking about. Can you come out in the open and name the constituencies where this Fund was mismanaged …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: … other than condemning all Members of Parliament from other constituencies? Can you come up with the names?

Laughter

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, there was a particular reference to the Copperbelt and Luapula Provinces. I was just trying to mention that there are problems in those provinces maybe because some people want to use the Fund to compensate their electorates.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order!

Mr Namulambe: There is no complaint in the Southern Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order.

Hon. Government Members: On whom?

Mr Speaker: The Chair will take only one who has been indicating for a long time.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, there will be no more funds given to the youths. In some cases, the youth groups received less than K2 million. How is the Ministry going to ensure that those who received these moneys will utilise it in the near future and pass it on to other youth groups?

Mr Namulambe: Mr Speaker, in the first place, it is not the Ministry which gave them K2 million, but a particular constituency committee. Therefore, I would request the hon. Member of Parliament for Malole to be on the lookout and ensure that the youths who benefited do not misuse those funds.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

BUILDING OF A HIGH SCHOOL IN NANGOMA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY

126. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Education whether there are any plans to build a high school in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency and, if so, in which area.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the Ministry is aware of the need for more high schools in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency. Therefore, a high school will be built when resources are available. However, there is Sanje High School in the Constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamusonde: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the lack of high schools in the rural areas is causing early marriages to girls.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, there are many factors to early marriages other than education.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to answer this question. You have not answered this question, hon. Minister. I would like to find out whether the Government has any plans to build a high school in Nangoma, if you have no plans, just say that there are no plans. Do you have any plans to build a high school in Nangoma? That is the question.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for that follow-up question from hon. Member of Parliament for Gwembe, who is asking with such vigour and energy which, of course, we appreciate. The answer has been given and it is as stated by the hon. Deputy Minister.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, when will this Ministry learn to respect questions asked by hon. Members of Parliament, instead of giving rhetoric answers like when funds are available. We know that and even my daughter can say that, but we want practical answers. We should be told when these funds will be available, as simple as all that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there is no rhetoric to the answers given. The answers are given as we access the reality of our situation and the reality of our situation is that, development programmes like those on the education sector are determined by the availability of resources, as simple as all that. The hon. Member should take that into account. The resources of the nation are discussed in this House and he knows the level of resources and what can be done in the different sectors.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I just would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education, why it is that after offering our constituencies secondary and high schools, you gave us an ultimatum in which to look for land to build these schools knowing too well that Lusaka has no land.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, this is the same hon. Member of Parliament who said they do not want a high school in Mandevu because they cannot find the land. Now, I do not know what she is referring to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, when finally the funds for Nangoma Constituency have been found, is it possible for the Ministry to consult the people of Nangoma where the school should be built? This is because it has become common knowledge that the Ministry is just building where it wants to build without consulting the local people.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Katombola knows very well that consultations are part of the process. She knows very well that there was consultation for the school that is being constructed in her area, and that is what we do. The input of the communities and districts are solicited for.

BUILDING OF A LOCAL COURT AT SICHILI IN MULOBEZI

127. Mr Mabenga asked the Minister of Justice:

(a) when the planned local court at Sichili in Mulobezi Parliamentary Constituency would be built in order to cut down on the distances people travel to attend court cases from as far as Kayoya, which is about 120 kilometres from Mulobezi and Mabenga Local Courts; and

(b) when local courts would be built at Nawinda Mabenga in Mulobezi Parliamentary Constituency where court sessions are currently held under trees.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the need for a local court at Sichili in Mulobezi Parliamentary Constituency, but due to budgetary constraints, it has not been possible to construct a local court at Sichili.

Mr Speaker, the Government is aware of the need for a local court at Nawinda Mabenga, but due to budgetary constraints, it has not been possible to construct a local court there. Therefore, I am unable to say when construction works will commence at these local courts.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, there are a number of local courts in the country which have been unoperational for quite sometime due to a lack of manpower. When is the hon. Minister going to take into consideration the recruitment of the manpower?

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, recruitment of local court justices is a continuous process and Members of Parliament should always bring some of the shortcomings to our attention so that we attend to them from time to time. We are doing this on a continuous basis, including the training of local court justices.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the learned hon. Minister of Justice whether the process of building local courts that he had stated in the previous Session has started in some areas other than Sichili that has been mention.

Mr Kunda, SC., SC.: Mr Speaker, I can confidently confirm that the construction of local courts in some places has commenced and that we budget for this programme every year. Therefore, I am urging hon. Members of Parliament to take an interest in what we budget for every year.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister last year, during the Budget presentation, indicated that local courts were going to be built in a number of areas, including at Ncheta Island in Luapula Constituency. Nothing has started at all. Can he confirm that the money for that project is still there and the local court will be built?

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I do not have that information off-the-cuff, but what I can say is that local courts which were budgeted for last year went through tender processes and, in some cases, there were delays. However, where money was released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning work has commenced. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Justice the minimum qualifications for one to be a court justice.

Mr Speaker: The learned hon. Minister of Justice may take this opportunity to lecture …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … even though it is not allowed in this Chamber.

Mr Kunda, SC.: Mr Speaker, there are various factors or qualifications that we look at in recruiting local court justices. I know that there are local court justices who have worked in the Civil Service before and have a lot of experience. We also look at the fact that they must have some knowledge of the Customary Law, a lot of common sense as well as a solid the educational background. We then train them in the art of adjudicating disputes or cases.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Chair is glad that the hon. Minister did not lecture.

Laughter

128. Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) whether the Ministry had any plans to revive the gypsum mine at Naboombe in the Lochnivar National Park; and

(b) why the equipment at the mine above was left unattended to.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that the Ministry promotes and regulates the development of the mining sector. In this regard, the Ministry has been facilitating the revival of the gypsum mine at Naboombe in the Lochnivar National Park by private companies. The gypsum resource in the area is estimated at 322,000 tonnes at 23 per cent grade.

Gypsum mining operations were initially carried out by Mindeco Small Mines Limited. Following the liberalisation of the economy, three small-scale mining licences for gypsum were issued in the area as follows:  
 
Miners Licence No. Date Issued

Mr Brebner Changala SML 44 16th June, 1998; 
Platitude Investments Limited  SML 49 1st September, 1998; 
Hamagwe Investments Limited SML 96 5th November, 2002.

The three miners were not able to operate because of financial constraints.

In an effort to attract more investors into gypsum mining, the Ministry in July, 2006, advertised all the known gypsum deposits in the country namely; Naboombe in Monze District; Siamo in Senanga District; and Mutinodo in Mpika. Only one small-scale mining licence was granted for the deposit in Mutinodo in Mpika District as there was poor response after the adverts.

With regard to part (b) of the question, the House may wish to know that there was no equipment left at the mine. Only dilapidated concrete and degenerated steel structures were left at the mine.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether people have been sent to assess the condition of the equipment at this mine because I went there personally and the equipment is there. Can the hon. Minister be more specific about whether there is only a concrete structure and no equipment?

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, the information that we have, as a Ministry is that officers went there and the equipment that they found was dilapidated.

I thank you, Sir.

_____________{mospagebreak}

MOTION

BUDGET 2008

(Debate resumed)

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, when the House adjourned yesterday, I was concluding my remarks on HIV/AIDS. I would like to quote from the Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, on page 7, item no. 53, which states:

“Sir, the Government continued to make headway in ensuring that more of our people living with HIV/AIDS have access to anti-retroviral therapy. In this regard, a total of 137,000 patients accessed free anti-retroviral therapy countrywide, compared to 75,000 in 2006.”

Mr Speaker, yesterday, I quoted the figures of the prevalence rate of the infection which is going up. It would be wrong for this Government to take pride in putting people on ARVs as opposed to prevention. Why do I say so? ARVs are not treatment in itself, it is a temporary measure. We should take keen interest, and be actively involved, as Government, in seeing that the numbers of those getting infected are brought down.

Mr Speaker, let me mention the issue of some night clubs. Interestingly enough, I have had very good responses from the customers of these clubs and I would still urge the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to do something about the age group that patronises those clubs and opening and closing times.

Mr Speaker, on environment, if this Government does not address the issue of pollution adequately, we are heading for a disaster in the near future.

Mr Speaker, we have been raising issues of pollution on the Copperbelt, Kankoyo in particular. Instead of this Government listening and taking remedial steps, it has opted to take a soft line with their investors.

Mr Speaker, there are consequences quite alright and I have an example here. Mopani Copper Mines Plc. will be taken to court for what they did sometime last year. If the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) was doing its work, Mopani Copper Mines Plc.would not have ended up in the courts of law. There is an agreement that they signed that the smelter in Mufulira should not be run in alone, but together with an acid plant. Nonetheless, ECZ was there seeing people choked and houses corroded to an extent where people have no roofs on their houses. All the roofing sheets have been eaten away while ECZ was there watching. I brought the issue in this House and the Government said: “If you so wish, you can take them to court”.

Mr Speaker, I wonder if that is the right attitude of the Government in helping people. Consider the process that these people will have to go through until the case is disposed of. I do not think it is fair. The cost is enormous. Yet they are the people who brought those investors and tolerated them to the extent of killing our people. I do not support that, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, new smelters are being constructed in Chambishi and Nchanga. It is just fair for me to remind my two colleagues that they should be on the watch out. I am talking from experience. This Government will be there smiling at the investment and yet people will be dying slowly.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, on wealth and job creation, I do not mind and care if we are listed in a magazine that we are doing better when in our own Budget Speech there are figures showing that poverty levels have increased in the rural areas. I do not know who we want to please, whether we want to please the foreigners who are writing about us in these magazines or the people in this country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: I do not know which jobs we are boasting about as having created and yet in actual fact, we are only supplying cheap labour to these investors so that the people can be paid slave wages.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, where on earth can you get 634 Indians to construct an acid plant and a smelter?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, I come from Mufulira, the acid, oxygen and smelter plants were constructed when I was still in employment and I never saw those kinds of numbers constructing the plants.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Why should Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) cheat that they brought these people as experts? I do not agree with them and it is very shameful.

Hon. PF Members: Shame!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, how can you fight poverty when poverty is used as a tool to fight poverty? I do not think that it is the right formula. We are saying that we are creating jobs, but I do not know if I can describe the remunerations from those jobs as salaries. They are merely paid allowances and then you say we are fighting poverty. As a result of this, we have created a problem in the rural areas. Why is there that problem? It is simple. The people in the rural areas have sons and daughters whom they look up to, but they have no means of supporting their parents in the rural areas because what they earn out of the jobs that this MMD Government is boasting about is not enough to sustain a family which is working.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, I was involved in the negotiations and I think it is very painful that each time you put an item on the table, these people would come out and say in your Government. I do not know how much interference they make in the negotiations.

Hon. PF Members: Balalya mo!

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, we have a problem in the industry because there are some things that a union cannot do because the Government wants to achieve its benchmarks. I do not think that is fair to the employees.

Mr Speaker, owing to the lack of time, let me conclude by commenting on corruption. Yesterday, you rightly directed this House that there are three arms of Government, the Legislature, the Judiciary and the Executive. They are all parts of one body and when a toe is affected, the pain is all over the body. Therefore, I am urging the …

Hon. PF Members: The Executive.

Mr Chanda: No, not the Executive.

Mr Nkombo: Judiciary to arrest them.

Mr Chanda: … Judiciary to play an important role in combating corruption in this country. We have seen them grant sentences that are meaningless. People are not deterred. If need be for this House to review the sentences, we should do that.

Hon. Government Members: Your time is up!

The Deputy Minister for the Northern Province (Mr Chibombamilimo): Mr Speaker, I stand …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Can you give me a chance?

Laughter

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, I stand to support the Motion on the Floor, namely; that we adopt the 2008 Budget as presented before the House. There are several reasons in the recent past, the present and the promise of a certain and positive future that should persuade all of us to support the Motion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Bushe nawishiba efyo ulelanda?

Mr Chibombamilimo: In the recent past, we have all been witnesses to a sustained growth in the economy averaging about 5 per cent.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: This growth is largely due to the Government’s economic policies that have provided an environment in which both local and international investors can confidently put their money in the Zambian economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, it is also a growth that demonstrates how closely the Government has worked with the Central Bank in ensuring the basic economic landmarks such as price stability, exchange rate and interest rate stability are achieved.

Mr Speaker, with these major pre-requisites for investment and growth firmly in place, we are now ready to launch our nation as a preferred destination for investment.

Mrs Kapata: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sichilima: Ah, go ahead.

Mr Chibombamilimo: We are also now ready to increase the allocation to the social sector such as education and health. We are also now ready to spend on the improvement of infrastructure such as roads and airports in areas where the tourism potential has been identified.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, with the support of this House, the tourism potential in the Northern Province will be unlocked.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Bwekeshenipo!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Starting with the completion of the Kasama Airport, we hope to spread the news of the beauty of Lake Tanganyika, the Kalambo Falls, the Chishimba Falls, the Kabwelume Falls, the Kundabwika and Lumangwe Waterfalls on Kalungwishi River.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: There is also the Nachikufu Cave, the Litopo Land located in Mbala which is one of the oldest prisons in the region where prisoners of war in the First and Second World Wars were held. The source of the Congo River, the place where Zwangendaba has been buried …

Mr Sikazwe: Tell them, hon. Minister

Mr Chibombamilimo: … and many more sites too numerous to mention.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: The roads to these tourism sites must be improved as a matter of urgency so that we reap the maximum benefits for the people.

Mr Speaker, I understand that our Tanzanian counterparts are considering an investment on their side of the Kalambo Falls so that they may attract tourists. We need, as the Government, to take a lead in investing in these sites beyond the improvement of road infrastructure.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Through the Hostels Board, we could channel resources so that modern lodges with international standards are established.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: In case someone argues that the days when …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[The Deputy Chairperson in the Chair]

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying, in case someone argued that the days the Government ran business were over, I would say yes, those days are over. However, the days are not over for the Government to make strategic interventions in the economy intended to demonstrate the potential that a particular sector may offer if the private sector looks unready to take up the challenge.

Successful economies such as those of Singapore were laid by the Government that intervened in every aspect of the economy, only to gradually withdraw as the private sector led by its nationals became ready and confident enough to take over.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear! That statement makes maximum sense.

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, as part of the development policy and strategy, we could go this route by supporting the Hostels Board in establishing facilities that could eventually be turned over to private investors.

As a Government, we continue to support the private sector in its activities. We are ready, as Northern Province, to facilitate links between the private sector and international sources of finance such as the World Bank so that we may accelerate development.

Mr Speaker, as hon. Minister of the Province, I am contemplating requesting permission from the Cabinet Office to allow my Permanent Secretary to reach out to the business community here at home and present to them what opportunities are available in the north.

Further, the PS could make presentations in countries and cities such as South Africa, the United States, Japan and Brussels where our embassies could help in facilitating meetings with potential financiers.

Mr Speaker, you are aware that when the President travels, sometimes his delegation includes members of the business community. This is to emphasise the role of the Government as facilitator.

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about revenue collection. The collection of revenue is steadily improving because of the measures that the Government has continued to take vis-à-vis capacity building in the public sector and agencies created by the State.

My Province, Northern, is a beneficiary of these initiatives as evidenced by the increase in the collection of revenue at Nakonde Border where less than K40 billion would be collected. Now, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) is able to almost double this figure in the last three months.

Mr Sikazwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, there is more that needs to be done so that more revenue could be collected. For instance, we need to improve security on the Zambia-Tanzania Border, so that the revenue collectors can carry out their functions without fear or intimidation from the criminals who are evidently unhappy that the measures recently introduced have sealed their sources of illicit income.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, the nation ought to know that the reforms under way in various Government departments and institutions are not fancy academic exercises, but measures that are intended to improve delivery of the services we were elected to provide.

Mr Speaker, on transport, we recognise the need for improved road infrastructure in the province to complement the efforts in boosting tourism and trade in the province. This year for instance, the people of the Northern Province expect us to embark on the tarring of the road from Mpulungu through Mbala and Nakonde to Kanyala Border in Malawi.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: This is the Mutwala Corridor.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: This road should facilitate the transportation of goods and passengers between the Nakonde Border and Mpulungu Port. The resources for this road were provided by the European Union. This is an old project for which feasibility studies were conducted, a pre-requisite for projects of this magnitude.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Another old plan in the transport sector in the Northern Province is the Tanzania-Zambia Railways (TAZARA) rail line that, according to plans, is supposed to be connected to the Mpulungu Harbour. From Nseluka, located about 40 kilometres from Kasama on the road to Mpulungu, the rail line was planned to reach the Harbour.

Ms Mumbi: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Mumbi: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister for Northern Province who is debating so well, and is an advocate of a woman president, in order to speak like a woman? Is he trying to become a woman? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Those are natural gifts given by God …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … and we cannot question the voice of an individual. The hon. Minister is on order.

He may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: The grand plan envisioned by this rail line is that several countries such as Mozambique, Malawi, Zambia, Tanzania and the Great Lakes Region are connected and trade among these countries is enhanced.

The Mchinji Rail Line is expected to come as far as Chipata. From there, the line should join TAZARA thereby completing the linking of a greater part of this region to one transport system. This is the Nacala Corridor.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: Investment in the transport infrastructure is intended to address the injustices of the colonial system that only built roads and rail lines were to facilitate the extraction of minerals from colonies to harbours in the south.

Mr Speaker, this system did not take into account connection between colonies as the system was not intended to promote intraregional trade. As we are faced with the necessity and agency of reducing heavy dependence on countries of the developed north, investment in the development of the transport system should be a matter of urgency.

Sir, on the subject of roads, let me suggest that while we depend on the contractors to undertake road construction, we should task our road engineers with minor road maintenance or repairs such as potholes. We do not need to wait until extensive damage has been done and call in contractors to undertake expensive road works, unless there is a philosophy behind this.

Interruptions

Mr Chibombamilimo: Mr Speaker, we risk reducing the engineers to mere clerks or supervisors thereby denying them the challenge that comes with making one’s hands dirty once in a while. We spent so much money on training these people, and yet seem to underutilise them, something, I am sure, they may equally be concerned about.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: With regard to education, the Northern Province wishes to place at the disposal of my counterpart at the Ministry of Education some of the facilities that could easily be used as university education campuses. These include former refugee camps such as Mwange in Mporokoso …

Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: … and the facility in Chinsali that was meant to be a police academy during the UNIP Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: These could help decentralise tertiary education and decongest the University of the Zambia, a move that the Ministry has already embarked on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Chibombamilimo: This is in line with the Government policy to expand higher education as evidenced by the opening of the Mulungushi University. As a Government, we recognise the importance of a skilled population as one sure way of setting the nation on a path to development.

Interruptions

Mr Chibombamilimo: My challenge to those going through these institutions is that they prepare themselves to become entrepreneurs. This is why, as a Government, we are setting up funds such as the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment Fund and policies that have seen mining companies obtaining their supplies from Zambians.

Mr Speaker, may I also comment on shipping. An average of five ships dock at Mpulungu Harbour.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, we are consulting loudly at the back.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Chibombamilimo: They come from countries such as Tanzania, Burundi and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Neither Zambia nor any Zambian owns one of these ships. I, therefore, wonder why and yet the shipping business is a huge foreign exchange earner. It is in sectors such as this one that the leadership of the State is absolutely necessary.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chibombamilimo: The shipping business in countries with ports such as Douala in Cameroon, Lagos on the Victoria Island in Nigeria and Durban in South Africa is so big that it contributes significantly to the economies of the countries in which they are located.

In addition, the Kasama Airport, the Northern Province needs to open the Zambia Air Force Airport in Mbala to the public so that commercial aircraft can assist in bringing visitors closer to tourism sites. The importance of setting up a terminal building at Mbala that could cost between K3 billion to K5 billion is the proximity of this town to Tanzania, one of Zambia’s important neighbours and trading partner. The town is close to Mpulungu, home to Zambia’s only port, a factor that implies a flow of visitors from the Great Lakes Region.

Mr Speaker, sometimes, we hold high level meetings in Mbala with officials from Tanzania and other neighbouring countries. Such meetings remind us of the urgent need for improved transport and lodging infrastructure in the area. Owing to the importance of Tanzania, we need to urgently set up a Joint Permanent Commission so that matters of mutual interest could be addressed in a formal structure.

Mr Speaker, currently, we have a local initiative in which we discuss matters such as the importance of establishing a formal structure due to the limited nature of provincial administration in matters of Foreign Policy. This will entail senior officials from both countries meeting in the province. By the same token, our visitors could be shown the tourism potential of the area.

Mr Speaker, investment in Mbala, Kaputa and Mpulungu is critical due to a concentration of tourism sites around the three towns. I would urge, therefore, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to consider adding the estimated K5 billion to the Budget before it is passed so that we may invest in the setting up of a terminal building at Mbala Airport to cater for civilian traffic.

Sir, we are all aware that the President has spoken of the importance of this airport and the need to open it as soon as possible. His Honour the Vice-President has also visited the airport and made similar calls thereby making it explicitly clear that opening this airport to civilian planes is urgent and non-negotiable.

Mr Speaker, during Ukusefya Pang’wena Ceremony of the Bemba People, the President mentioned Mbala Airport, further giving urgency to the project.

Energy

Sir, the tourism sites such as waterfalls that I have mentioned …

Interruptions

Mr Chibombamilimo: … are not only of value …

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member’s time has elapsed.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Just by way of advice. Some hon. Members of the Executive say they appeal to the Government and yet they, themselves, are in Government.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I, therefore, urge them to try as much as possible to speak as members of the Executive.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to join the other hon. Members of this august House who debated before me. I would like to comment on the theme of this year’s Budget which is: “Unlocking Resources for Economic Empowerment and Wealth Creation.”

Mr Speaker, we heard in this House that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has the key and he was going to unlock the resources for economic empowerment and wealth creation. When I look at the Budget of the year, 2007 and 2008, the difference is only the theme and a few figures that have been adjusted here and there.

Sir, may I be allowed to comment on the National Constitution Conference. People have said that the Patriotic Front (PF) is not a democratic party. I would like to inform the nation, through this House, that PF is a democratic party …

Interruptions

Ms Kapata: …and out of the forty-two hon. Members of Parliament, sixteen are not participating in the NCC. We are not participating because every organisation has a constitution which guides its members. Zambia …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Before I grant that point of order, I would like to urge the hon. Members that they should not debate through points of order. It is also good to listen to what other people are saying so that if you want to answer back or make a contribution, you just indicate.

A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I did not wish to interrupt the speaker, but it is a matter of procedure. A number of times, you have guided us when we come into this House to be factual and not to bring in issues that do not concern all of us here. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to bring in issues of PF by saying that it is democratic when in actual fact, that is not the true position. Recently, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is your point of order?

Mr Sichilima: Sir, is she in order to say that when recently, we heard in the papers and in media that in PF, people are appointed by one individual and they have no constitution.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member should take that point of order into account. She should not dwell too much on PF, but concentrate on the NCC. I recall that the Speaker made a ruling sometime back that if we can, we should participate in the NCC.

The hon. Member may continue.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I was saying that out of the thirty-two members who attended Central Committee meeting to decide the PF position on the NCC, two abstained and nine voted for going and twenty-one voted for not going. What is democracy then? That is democracy enough.

Sir, the views of your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender on the National Constitution Conference Bill was rejected in this House by the people on your right. The members of the Committee, in confusion, voted against their own Committee’s recommendations, which is a shame.

Mr Shakafuswa interrupted.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, it is because of these reasons that I and the people of Mandevu feel we cannot and will not represent the views of the people of Zambia at large as long as these issues are not addressed in the NCC.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, on the Ministry of Health, the Abuja Declaration stipulates that 15 per cent of the total National Budget must be allocated to the Ministry of Health. Zambia has been a signatory to many international declarations, but domesticating them has been a problem. In 2007, the health sector was allocated 10.5 per cent of the total National Budget. This year, again, we have seen that only 11.7 per cent has been thereto allocated. Why is it difficult for this Government, for the people on your right, to go by what they sign in the international conventions?

Mr Speaker, the number six Millennium Development Goal talks about reversing the HIV/AIDS pandemic by the year 2015. The current public health system is not adequately supported by the community structures for effective delivery of Anti-Retro Viral drugs (ARVs). There are too many pilot structures, which suggest lack of focus and direction on the part of the Government. The Government continues to look at non-governmental and faith-based organisations involved in the provision of care and support for people living with HIV/AIDS.

Mr Speaker, access to critical tests such as the CD4 count, liver and kidney functioning tests are still not available in every district and general hospitals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Lack of the essential equipment has forced clinicians to rely on physical examination to determine whether a person can commence ARVs.

Mr Speaker, as though that were not enough, in Mandevu Constituency, the Chipata Compound Government Clinic, this Government has allowed a private person to operate the X-ray facility in the Government building.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Ms Kapata: This private individual charges people K20, 000 per X-ray. Even if we are talking about partnering with the private sector, taking into account the economic status of the people of Mandevu and Chipata Compound, that amount of money is beyond their means.

Mr Speaker, access to information on ART is also erratic, especially in rural and peri-urban areas. We need more education. These people need to be given more education on ART if we are to achieve the sixth Millennium Development Goal.

Sir, in Mandevu and last year when I stood to debate, I mentioned that to date, to put somebody on ARVs is complex. These people come to Parliament and give us statistics such as 100,000 people are on ARVs, but they do not tell us the system that they have put into place. To date, to put a client who has tested HIV positive on medication, takes a month. Why should it be so? Some of the people have died before they can access the ARVs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, at the moment, in the clinics in Mandevu, we do not have essential drugs. They are saying they have done away with user fees, but people are still paying a fee before they are attended to. These people are meant to pay K5, 000 before they are seen. After paying that K5, 000, which is far much more than a dollar and a family in Mandevu lives below a dollar per day, they walk away with prescriptions and no medication.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, we lack ambulance services. We do not have vehicles to transport patients. Some of the people in Mandevu are transported from their homes to the clinic in wheelbarrows. I am wondering when this Government will provide us with ambulances to enable the people to get to hospitals in a decent manner.

Mr Speaker, I would like to comment briefly on the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. The Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) is incompetent to an extent where blackouts have become the order of the day. There is on load shedding in Ng’ombe, Chaisa, Kabanana, Chazanga and Chipata compounds. People no longer watch television to hear about what is going on around them. Tell us why the ZESCO management should not be brought before one of these Committees in Parliament to give this House an explanation regarding what is going on where electricity is concerned.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, this is forty-four years after independence. When will the people of Zambia be independent? The New Deal Government, which I call the No Deal Government …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: … needs to do more and get to the bottom of the ZESCO problem.

Mr Speaker, I would like to compliment my sister, the Minister of Community Development and Social Services, Hon. Namugala, and assure her that I will give her my full support during this year’s Budget because she has tried to empower some of our women in the compounds. We need more money to empower women. As you are aware, most of these Zambian homes are run by women. When you empower a woman, you know that you have empowered the nation. Therefore, we will give support to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Mr Speaker, on the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting, allow me to table my disappointment regarding the Government-controlled papers and TV stations, and at the same time, congratulate Muvi TV.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: There was a case in Mazyopa which occurred on 28th August, 2007. When this case occurred in my constituency, none of the Government-controlled media came anywhere near the constituency to broadcast and publish the story. However, when the Government released K600 million to relocate these people, they started running around looking for me to tell them what had happened. I told them that I would not say anything because that case started on 28th August, 2007. Why did they want me to give them information on something they had not paid attention to earlier?

Mr Speaker, in giving this example, I would like to say that it is time that the Freedom of Information Bill came back to Parliament so that we can support it fully and also that we can be supported by the Government-controlled media.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, let me come to housing and community.

Sir, K399.8 billion has been allocated to improve access to safe drinking water in the peri-urban areas.

Sir, I still would like to give an example of my constituency. People do not have decent houses, toilets and clean drinking water. Therefore, I only hope that, through this money, the people of Mandevu will also be allocated something to enable them have clean water and decent shelter.

Sir, allow me to congratulate the people of Mandevu for being so careful this rainy season. We have not had any cholera cases since the rainy season started. I would, therefore, like to thank them because we have managed to eradicate cholera. I, therefore, would like to congratulate them for keeping it at zero in Mandevu.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Sir, having said that,  I would also like to say something on the hon. Minister of Works and Supply.

Sir, I would like to congratulate Hon. Simbao and Hon. Masebo for giving us K400 billion. Hon. Simbao is the only hon. Minister I have seen on the ground. He is the only hon. Minister who goes to the remotest areas and almost where bad roads are.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: Order! Your are disturbing the person debating. She is praising the hon. Minister of Works and Supply. Therefore, we should listen.

May the hon. Member, please, continue.

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I told Hon. Simbao, that next time I will see an article in the newspaper; I will stand on a point of order because it seems that he has concentrated on the roads in the rural areas and yet we also need roads to be rehabilitated here in Lusaka.

Sir, I also would like to say that we are very happy because the hon. Minister of Works and Supply mentioned that the roads in Lusaka will be under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Looking at our lady, Hon. Masebo, I am sure most of these roads will be worked on because she a woman who performs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, I also would like to say that most of the infrastructure in Mandevu is dilapidated, especially the roads due to heavy rains. Therefore, we only hope that in this Budget, most of the roads will be attended to.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Kaingu): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to contribute on the Budget Speech presented by Hon. Magande, Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Sir, I wish to comment on various issues raised by hon. Members of Parliament on the Budget Speech. I would like to concur with Hon. Sejani that despite the continued positive economic growth that the country has recorded, the impact on the ground has not yet been felt.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, It is a well-known fact that macro-economic benefits take sometime to manifest. In this regard, the Government has put in place programmes aimed at providing direct support towards the improvement of the livelihoods of the people. These include, among others, the Youth Development Fund, Poverty Reduction Programmes and Constituency Development Fund. These are intended to facilitate development at the local levels and the Fertilizer Support Programme is aimed at providing agricultural inputs to support small-scale farmers to attain household food security.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, Zambia was for a long time a food-deficit country, but for the first time, last year, the country was able to export maize as a result of the Government’s good agriculture policies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I am sure hon. Members of this House can still smuggle, smuggle apwisha ubunga.

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, this means that the smuggler was taking meal meal across the border to DRC, but now we are trading properly with our colleagues in the DRC.

Mr Speaker, the other problem we have is that our small-scale farmers, instead of keeping something for their consumption, after harvesting their maize, they sell everything because they believe that the Zambian Government will provide relief food.

Sir, I must hasten to state that despite the Government’s well intentioned efforts to alleviate the plight of the people, it is discouraging to note that most of the people are lazy and prefer handouts such as relief food to producing their own food. This is a sad development. Perhaps this explains why the efforts of the Government have not had great impact.

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources in order to start talking about other ministries which he cannot even understand very well instead of concentrating on his Ministry. I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister is making a contribution to the President’s Address and Budget Speech. Therefore, he is not confined to debating his Ministry.

Could the only Minister, please, continue.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, at the moment, we are debating the Budget …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have already ruled. Could you, please, continue with your debate.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, we are debating the Budget in general. When we come to my Head, I will concentrate on Tourism.

Mr Speaker, the mindset of the people was spoilt during the Second Republic when we had coupons and because of that, people still believe that the Government must provide.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, hon. Members of Parliament, we are expected to be the flag bearers of the Constituency Development Fund and the Fertilizer Support Programme. There is a need, therefore, to step up our efforts in educating the people on what the Government’s role in the development process is. There is a misconception that it is the Government‘s role to put food on the table. To the contrary, the Government’s responsibility is to put in place appropriate policies that will result in macro-economic stability and thereby attract more investments that will ultimately lead to job creation.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Kaingu: The Government collects money from its people for social work through fiscal policies.

Mr Speaker, Zambia has embarked on an ambitious programme aimed at poverty reduction through wealth creation. In order to achieve this objective, the citizens are expected to play their part. Zambia’s development depends on participation of its citizens. Foreign investors are there to trigger economic growth and complement the efforts of the local people.

Sir, I am pleased that, as a responsible Government, long-term measures have been put in place, through the establishment of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission, to allow a greater participation of citizens in the running of the economy. Mr Speaker, it is only the foreigners who are seeing the copper, oil, emeralds and tourism.

Mr Kambwili: Hammer!

Mr Kaingu: However, all of us are simply saying “Question, Question”, without any participation at all.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, Hon. Milupi mentioned the fact that only the hon. Minister of Lands was in a position to provide information on how much the Ministry contributed to the national Treasury. I wish to say that in 2007, the tourism sector contributed $188 million from $177million in 2006. Furthermore, from the economic growth rate of 6.2 per cent, the tourism sector contributed more than 2 per cent to that growth.

Mr Kambwili: Now you are talking!

Mr Kaingu: In addition, the hon. Member mentioned that the country’s economic growth of 6.2 per cent was inadequate. I beg to differ with him because the performance of the economy was so good on the ground. The highest growth rate was recorded by India at 9 per cent. Therefore, you can see that the 6.2 per cent growth rate was way beyond average.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: The tourism sector is the other sector, other than agriculture, that can contribute to poverty reduction, particularly in rural areas through ethno-tourism and eco-tourism. It is for this reason that I wish to refute the assertion by Hon. Malama, Member of Parliament for Mfuwe, that nothing is being done for the people living in Chief Nabwalya’s area.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member was very economical with the truth. I have this piece of paper which indicates the money allocated to the Community Resource Boards (CRBs) in Chief Nabwalya’s area dating back from 2004.

Munyambazi Wawata in Chief Nabwalya was given a total amount of K351.65 million in 2004. In 2005, Munyambazi Wawata was given K211 million. Munyambazi Nyampala was given K242 million. In 2006, Munyamazi Wawata was given K174.55 million …

Mr Kambwili: What for?

Mr Lubinda: CRBs!

Mr Kaingu: … and Munyamazi Nyampala was given K192 million.

Mr Kambwili: What for?

Mr Kaingu: In fact, to cut the long story short, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! You have failed to read!

Mr Kaingu: … a total of K1.6 billion was applied in Chief Nabwalya’s area in the form of Constituency Development Fund, Youth Fund and Fertiliser Support Programme Fund. Therefore, for him to come here and say that he wants to cry and inform us that he is slimming down, and yet you can see that the suit he is wearing is bursting, …

Laughter

Mr Kaingu: … is being economical with the truth.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: On another note, I think I would be failing in my duties if I did not comment on …

Mr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources on the Floor in order to come to this House and start revealing how much money has gone into Chief Nabwalya’s area without stating that in fact, that money is used for the purchase of uniforms for the village scouts and a common person in Chief Nabwalya does not …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is your point of order!

Mr Malama: That is the one I am raising, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, you are debating.

Mr D. Mwila: Nishani!

Mr Malama: Is he in order not to tell the House that, in fact, that money is used for uniforms and allowances for village scouts?

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is responding to a complaint earlier raised in the House that nothing was going to Chief Nabwalya area.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, I think that he is in order.

Can you continue, hon. Minister.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, on another note, I think I would be failing in my duties if I did not comment on Hon. Sinyangwe’s debate on tribal lines. She is a Member of Parliament with exceptional leadership qualities. That is why we elected her as Vice-Chairperson at the National Constitution Commission (NCC).

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: She is available!

Mr Kaingu: In fact, it is quite discouraging that Hon. Kambwili can be a Whip to Hon. Sinyangwe.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, can you discuss the issue raised.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is that kind of debate that encourages other people to begin raising points of order. Avoid that kind of debate and go straight to the issue.

Mr Kaingu: I thank you, Sir, for your guidance.

Interruptions

Mr Kaingu: I will not make a comment on what the hon. Member of Parliament for Kankoyo (Mr Chanda) said on pollution because the residents of Kankoyo have taken the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) and Mopani Copper Mines Plc. to court. I did not want to raise a point of order on him when he was debating, but I would like to put it on record that there is a case going on. Therefore, it would not be good for me to make a comment on that matter.

I will also not make a comment on what the Minister for Northern Province said. I will do that when I discuss my Ministry.

Mr Mukanga: Talk about the pollution!

Mr Kaingu: As I concluded, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kaingu: … I wish to sound a warning …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am appealing to hon. Members not to debate whilst seated. When you speak and others listen, you feel good. However, when others want to speak, you want to interject. It is not fair. Let us give him an ear.

Hon. Minister, you may continue, please.

Mr Kaingu: As I conclude, I wish to sound a warning that unless we take timely action, our development efforts will be frustrated by the challenges of the effects of the climatic change. The floods that the country is currently experiencing have washed away infrastructure such as roads, bridges, culverts and flooded agricultural lands. Mitigation efforts will ensure that we become proactive in handling disasters of this magnitude.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Quality!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Budget Speech, as usual, to lament the plight of Katombola Constituency.

The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has ended his debate by talking about the floods, though he did not particularly talk about the Katombola Constituency floods.

Sir, this is the third year running that Katombola Constituency and Kazungula District, in particular, is experiencing floods. We are wondering whether the Government is making any plans so that come the 2009 rainfall, we do not experience the same floods we have experienced this time around.

Mr Speaker, I have photographs here that I would like to lay on the Table so that people understand what I am talking about. I have another set of photographs here that I would like to give to His Honour the Vice-President so that he also understands what I am talking about. Usually, these people from the Government get reports whilst sitting. They do not go out there to see what we talk about. Therefore, I have now gone into the habit of taking my constituency to their desks. That is why I have brought these photographs to His Honour the Vice-President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, sadly, this year, we lost lives in Katombola Constituency. We lost a Grade 6 pupil who was trying to cross a collapsed bridge with her friends. There were four little girls and all were swept by water, but the three were lucky because they had held onto roots of the trees that germinate in the river. The fourth one was not lucky, she was swept away.

Last week, Mr Speaker, we lost another old man through the floods. That is why I am saying that the Government should do something so that come the next rainy season, we do not lose lives. In 2006 and 2007, we did not lose any life. This year, 2008, we have lost two lives and in 2009, we might lose more than two lives. Therefore, the Government …

Hon. Members were making noise.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It seems there are a lot of loud consultations. We have no objection to people consulting quietly. However, when you speak as if you are also on the Floor, it disturbs the Chair and the person debating. Can we consult quietly and listen to the debater.

The hon. Member may, please, continue.

Mrs Musokotwane: Thank you, Mr Speaker. In the photos, Mr Speaker, you will see the hardships of travelling in Katombola Constituency at the moment. You will also see how the crops have been destroyed. I will not talk much on this issue because I have photos here for you, Sir, and the Vice-President to see.

Mr Speaker, we are all Zambians here. We are all supposed to feel for our Mother Zambia. I would like to believe we came into this House because we felt that we should make a difference in our constituencies by helping improve the lives of our people.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I get disappointed sometimes, when I listen to the debates that come from the people on your right and begin to wonder whether they live in the real Zambia or they are in a Fantasy Island.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: I am privileged, Mr Speaker, because I travelled around this country in the Second Republic and I have travelled around this country in the Fourth Republic. I can compare what Zambia was in the Second Republic and what Zambia is today.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: I begin to wonder when people stand up and start praising the Government. When my video of their constituency runs in my mind because I have been there, you wonder, on his behalf, what he is talking about because they are not talking on behalf of their people. I will give, one example, the Provincial Deputy Minister for Northern Province gave an example of the Mpulungu/Mbala/Nakonde Road. This is one road which should have been lucky in this country because since the MMD came into power, this road has always had Nakonde Constituency Minister, Mbala Constituency Minister and Mpulungu Constituency Minister, but when you travel on that road, my God.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: We travelled on that road from Nakonde to Mbala for five good hours and I asked myself, what are these hon. Ministers doing in these constituencies. There was a time when this road had a Cabinet Minister from Nakonde and a powerful hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning from Mbala, but look at the road. Shameful! However, they will come here and tell us all is well. Are they in Zambia or Fantasy Island?

Hon. Opposition Members: Fantasy Island.

Mrs Musokotwane: They should remember that they have come here to represent the people who cannot come into this House. They sent them to come and talk on their behalf to improve people’s livelihoods, not their own livelihoods. I know they talk the way they do because they are afraid of losing their positions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Those are Zambian positions. They are not personal-to-holder. They do not impress anybody by praising where praise is not due. Anyway, because they are used to praises, then they are doing very well for the poor quality of the Nakonde/Mbala Road. Well done!

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, from our late President, Anderson Mazoka to the current President Hakainde, UPND has always been saying there was no need for Zambia to suffer the way it is suffering because it has resources. From the time UPND was formed in 1998, we have been saying this.

UPND Members:  Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, to prove our point this year, the Government is unlocking the resources which it had locked all these years. We were saying the resources are there because we knew the resources were there, but they had locked them in their briefcases.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: This year, UPND is proved correct because the MMD Government is unlocking the resources.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, unlocking the resources is one thing …

Mr Kasongo: And Magande was in UPND.

Mrs Musokotwane: That is why he unlocked them because he is UPND.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: … and utilising the resources is another thing.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, is my aunt, who is debating off target today, in order to insinuate that Hon. Magande is UPND, and yet she knows very well that Hon. Magande is a Member of MMD and a very strong advocate of the whole Zambia and not of individualism? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think we should not dwell much on that point of order because it is clear that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is MMD. Therefore, let us not delve into that one.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I was saying that unlocking resources is one matter and utilising the resources is yet another matter. That is why I am not referring to the Budget Speech. I do not even know where my copy of the Budget Speech is. To me, it does not make sense. It is useless. Why even refer to it? They are talking about economic growth, maybe in Lusaka, Copperbelt and in the MMD constituencies there could be economic growth. Unless I see economic growth in Katombola Constituency, the Budget, to me, is useless.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: There is no difference between this year’s Budget and the budgets we have had all along. The other budgets have not made any difference, instead the lives of the people in Katombola Constituency has continued to worsen. With the floods in the whole constituency, I do not know how we are going to survive. We will see, anyway, since the resources are now unlocked. We will be watching to see how those resources will be utilised. As I have said, when they stand here on the Floor of this House, they say that there is this and that in my constituency. I hope the resources are going to be shared equitably so that I also stand here and praise the Government. These people in the Government even if they say, my Government, it is not their Government alone. It is the Zambian Government. It is our Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: It is a Government of every Zambian and, therefore, the resources must reach everyone. When the Executive stand up to speak, they should not say, “my Government”. From today onwards, they should learn to say, “our Government” because whether they like it or not I am in Zambia, I am a Zambian and I am entitled to the Zambian cake.

Mr Speaker, the most inefficient Ministry is the Ministry of Education.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: How can the Ministry of Education send K218.8 billion back to the Treasury? It is the highest spending agency that has sent back money to the Treasury. Shame. When I look at my constituency and think of the children who sit on the floor, have no textbooks, walk long distances to schools that have no boreholes and no teachers …

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order concerning the misinformation coming from the hon. Member for Katombola who is debating with a lot of zeal and passion and who has an idea of what she is talking about.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, a secondary school is being constructed in her constituency. Is she in order to speak the way she is speaking and misinform the nation when she knows very well that procedurally, capital projects have a tendering process? The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has made it very clear that the resources which have been mopped up are now in an account awaiting implementation of the capital projects. The schools that are to be constructed are part of those resources and they will be accessing those resources in order to embark on construction. Is she in order to misinform the nation in that way?

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair notices that the hon. Minister of Education cleverly, through a point of order, was trying to say something about what the hon. Member for Katombola was saying. In the light of that observation, I think that the hon. Minister has adequately debated his point of order.

Can you continue, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I was saying that K218.8 billion went back to the Treasury and yet pupils are sitting on the floor and have no textbooks, teachers have no houses, schools have no teachers and the conditions of service for teachers are horrible.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: That was the point I was making. Sikaunzwe Primary School is on the way to the hon. Minister’s constituency. It is not far from the road and I invite him to pass there one day so that he can understand what I am talking about or next time I go there, I will bring him a photograph because people nowadays believe in photographs. I will do that. I thank him for giving me one secondary school, but how many pupils do I have who need to go to high school. If he puts one school in Nyawa and another one in Moomba then I am going to feel great. At the moment, one is not enough.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: I will keep hammering on him until I have three high schools in my constituency. He is a professor and I am sure that he has forgotten that when he started school in Grade, 1 he was sitting on the floor. Today, just because he is a professor he has forgotten about where he came from.

Interjections

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: These are not politics, mind you, but the realities on the ground. They must be taken seriously. When I want to politick, I campaign out there, but when I am in this House, I talk about business and development. I do not do politics in here.

Mr Speaker, on agriculture, - oh no, I am not finished with Professor Lungwangwa.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, last year, we were only given twelve teachers in July. In December, we asked for sixty teachers, but were not given even one. How does he expect the standard of education to improve in my constituency when we are not being given teachers? Then after that he says that we are not grateful. What are we supposed to be grateful for? If he sends only 110 teachers to my district, we will give him peace of mind and leave him alone. This is the total number of teachers we are requesting for, once and for all, and not annually. I am, therefore, looking forward to the next recruitment so that the sixty teachers whom we had asked for last year would be sent to Kazungula. We will then be waiting for the remaining fifty teachers to be sent at the end of this year and we will then give the hon. Minister of Education peace of mind.

Mr Speaker, I now would like to comment on agriculture. Kazungula District last season produced 194,629 50kg bags of maize. Out of this maize, 65,774 bags of maize went to the shed in Livingstone, 31,774 bags went to the Kauwe shed, 11,550 bags went to the Makunka shed, 2,175 bags went to the Nyau shed, and 81,356 bags were taken to the Kalomo shed. I would like an explanation from the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives why a large amount of our produce was taken to Kalomo. It now seems like Kalomo has produced the maize when it is Kazungula that produced it. As a co-operative in Kazungula …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: … to date, we have lost K40 million for storage and handling fees of our maize which has gone to Kalomo. The Ministry should subsidise Kazungula because we want our K40 million back. Why should we labour and Kalomo enjoys our fruits. Twakaka!

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: No. It is not acceptable. This must be the last time that they are going to do it, otherwise, next time we will take them to court. It is our sweat and we need to enjoy it. We cannot sweat for Kalomo. Out of 65,000 bags of our maize in Livingstone, only 10,000 is left because the other 55,000 has been exported to Namibia and Botswana and nobody is telling the world that Kazungula maize is being exported.

Interjections

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I am now telling the world that our maize is being exported to Namibia and Botswana and we want commission for that maize from the Government because the money that is going there is being sold. Where are the proceeds from the sell of our maize? We sweated for that maize and the profits must come to us. Therefore, I will follow up this issue with the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, thank you, for giving me a chance to add my voice to that of the others on this wonderful debate.

Mr Speaker, I concur with a number of speakers who have already spoken in congratulating the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning on this year’s Budget.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, we cannot hear you clearly. Maybe it is your papers blocking the microphone.

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, I will try to bend down. It is because of my height.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: In the first place, the Budget’s theme is very good and I do not find any reason for people to condemn it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: A Minister is telling you that he is trying to unlock the resources, but you do not want the resources to be unlocked. Instead you are attacking the theme. Really I do not know whether we are serious or not.

The resources which were probably hidden for many years are now being unlocked and …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Continue.

Mr Bonshe: It is very unfortunate. This Government has done enough to improve the economy of this country. The interest rates have gone down tremendously, the exchange rates have improved, the Kwacha has stabilised and all these are indicators of a Government that is at work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Some people, perhaps, because they are lazy want to get handouts. The handouts are no more. The time we used to get coupons is gone. We are saying that we want Kapenta and beans on our table. There is a lot of Solwezi beans grown in Solwezi and Kapenta is just around the corner in Siavonga. Why can we not bring it here? The fishermen are busy catching the Kapenta and it is brought here. If you are not able to buy it, then it is your pocket which is not managing you to buy it. You know very well that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair is a little worried because I can see the hon. Minister has a written text in his hand. Hon. Minister, I am trying to help you from going amiss.

Please, get back to your written statement.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: It is not a written speech. They are just notes which I was making. I am trying to emphasis the point that …

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: Sometimes I have everything in my head. When many people are saying that the benefits of the Government are not trickling down, I get surprised because it seems people do not have eyes to see how the benefits of this Government are trickling down.

Hon. UPND Members: Where?

Mr Bonshe: Even the remotest place in the North Western Province, in Zambezi West, where Hon. Kakoma comes from, they are able to get television signals. Are those not benefits which they are getting there?

Hon. Government Members: They are.

Mr Bonshe: You are able to talk to the people in Shang’ombo today on phone and within seconds. Are those not benefits?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: There is a borehole in Mapatizya Constituency and people are drinking clean water there. Are those not benefits trickling down? Maybe, you want the benefits to trickle to the Bottom …

Mrs Musokotwane: Which bottom?

Mr Bonshe: The benefits have only ended at the Bottom Road. They cannot go further than that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, let me talk about the Ministry. The Ministry of Home Affairs is responsible for the maintenance of law and order and preservation of life and property. We have done very well in this area. The country is at peace. We have monitored all the elections impartially. All the political parties were given a chance to conduct their campaigns without problems.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: Our police officers have been motivated and when you look at them, they are looking smart. We have given them good uniforms.

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: In the Budget this year, we have catered for building of good houses for our police officers. In addition to that, a brick-making machine has been purchased in the Zambia Police Service and police officers will make blocks and build their own houses.

Mr Speaker, you may wish to know that we will recruiting 1,500 police officers this year. Out of this number, 300 officers will be professionals such as carpenters, brick layers and electricians.

A Building Brigade is going to be formed which is going to be responsible for the maintenance of all the police camps. This is a step in the right direction in complementing the efforts of the Government.

Mr Speaker, you will see that in the area of recruitment, last year alone, we trained nineteen officers from other SADC region countries, meaning that we are recognised internationally. At the moment, so many countries have applied to have their officers trained here in Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: As we debate now, nearly every police station in Zambia has a motor vehicle.

Interruptions

Mr Bonshe: Mr Speaker, crime has been reduced tremendously. This time, you do not hear about any aggravated robberies, no vehicles are stolen at gun point and there are no murder cases. The situation in the country is calm, meaning that the police are at work. They are doing their best.

For your information, we are now refurbishing the Sikanze Police Officer’s Mess to turn it into a hospital so that we can have a hospital of our own. So far, about five medical doctors have been recruited and trained as police officers, a step forward. We are estimating to have seven which is two more medical doctors, and, within a few month’s time, we shall open our hospital in Sikanze Police Camp.

Our police officers also have been engaged in peace-keeping missions. They have done very well and their discipline there has been exemplary.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: The Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) has also done very well. It is not easy today to come into Zambia with drugs. Our dogs and other detecting machines are able to capture any drug which is being brought into the country illegally. Equally, you cannot easily take out drugs outside the country because we have ensured that drug trafficking is controlled at all border posts. Where it is being done locally, like other people who want to smoke it, we detect all those people who cultivate dagga.

In some areas, it is a custom for them to cultivate dagga, …

Hon. UPND Members: Where?

Mr Bonshe: … but we are telling you that it is a dangerous drug. You may ask “where”, but we do know where. In Senanga where they call it Matokwani, they grow it.

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Home Affairs in order to mislead this House that at all border posts, there are dogs and yet I just came from Kazungula yesterday and I did not see any dog?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, as you debate, take into account that point of order.

Continue.

Mr Bonshe: The dogs are not there to be exposed. We know when to release them.

Laughter

Mr Bonshe: It was not easy for you to see them when you went there because you were not looking for our smoother dogs, but something else. So, you could not be allowed to inspect the dogs. However, what I am telling you is that we are working to ensure that drug trafficking is minimised in the country. We have done enough to maintain law and order. Likewise, the corruption you are talking about has been completely brought down because of the re-training of the officers. We are retraining our officers on a monthly basis. We take them for refresher courses so that they can be updated about modern methods of investigations and modern methods of apprehending people while upholding their human rights.

Presently, there will be a course very soon at Lilayi where the Anti-Corruption Commission will teach the officers …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairman: I think we have had too many points of order on the hon. Minister speaking. Let him finish his contribution.

Continue, please.

Mr Bonshe: Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

Dr Katema: Finally.

Mr Bonshe: I was saying that we will continue to train our officers so that they become efficient in their operations. I was also saying that it is true that crime has been reduced. According to the information we receive on daily basis, sometimes, a day can pass without a single report of assault, accassioning of actual bodily harm. It is almost non-existent.

Hon. opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: I am telling you because I take this information on a daily basis. Crime has been reduced. You can park a vehicle for a while, even without proper security, and still find it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Bonshe: Crime has reduced. We read the papers. Sometimes, in the papers, there are no reports of car thefts. It is non-existent. We do not read of people murdered here and there. It is not there. Even in the courts of law no one is prosecuted for aggravated robbery. We have done very well. You should give credit where it is due by telling someone that he has done very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bonshe: It is not for the sake of opposition as others might want to think. Even when we say there is a bumper harvest, they will say, “the so-called bumper harvest”.

Otherwise, the Ministry of Home Affairs is assuring the House that we will take care of the Police officers, Immigration officers and everyone. The new passports that will be durable not be easily forged will be out very soon. There will also be good National Registration Cards (NRCs) will come out soon

With these few words, I thank you , Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: My queen.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Ms Lundwe): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to that of the other Members who have debated the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, I would be failing in my duties if I did not commend the Ministry of Finance and National Planning for coming up with a very good theme for this year’s Budget.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: In the recent past, the Government had taken measures to create a conducive atmosphere for investment. This year, the Government has taken yet another step of unlocking these resources to empower the Zambians.

Hon. Government Member: Yamfwa!

Ms Lundwe: It is for this reason that the theme: “ Unlocking Resources for Economic Empowerment and Wealth Creation” fits very well with the Government’s intention of empowering the people with wealth as a means of reducing poverty.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: Quality!

Ms Lundwe: Therefore, to realise this, the growth in Gross Domestic Product (GDP) should continue through the implementation of various measures that have been spelt out in this year’s Budget.

In contributing to the implementation of these measures, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development will implement various programmes in the energy and water sectors aimed at reducing the high level of poverty, especially in the rural areas, by increasing access to energy and water.

Mr Speaker, let me point out that of all the natural resources, water permeates into all aspects of life. All economic activities depend on the water resource.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: Water is essential for our survival. Its presence determines the nature of the environment we live in.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: Therefore, the attainment of the Vision 2030 Goal, as stated in this year’s Budget Address, of being a prosperous middle income country will only be possible if water resources are managed in an equitable manner which is sensitive to the main demands placed on the resource.

Mr Speaker, increased population and economic activity has placed new demands on our limited resource, water.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: This requires a corresponding increase in the amount of investment in the water sector.

Hon. Government Member: Boma!

Ms Lundwe: For this reason, there is a need to build more hydro-infrastructure such as dams and weirs as well as ground water development to meet the legitimate demand of the majority of the people, especially in the rural areas and that of the key economic sectors such as agriculture, mining and tourism.

Unless the water demands by these key sectors are met, …

Mr Mubika: Quality!

Ms Lundwe: …meaningful and sustainable economic growth cannot be realised.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes!

Ms Lundwe: Mr Speaker, allow me to talk about some planned activities in the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. In order to address the varying water needs of the general population and other economic sectors, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, through its five year strategic plan, aims at promoting sustainable development and management of water resources to ensure availability of quality, affordable and safe clean water and enhance national economic development.

Mr Speaker, to achieve increased accessibility to reliable safe clean water by all sectors of the economy, the Ministry has, this year, lined up three main programmes. These programmes have been designed to meet the aspirations of the people, as reflected in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) and theey include:

(i) development of hydro-infrastructure that is rehabilitation and construction of dams and weirs

 (ii) exploration and development of ground water;

 (iii) water resources conservation and management programmes;

Mr Mubika: Quality!

Ms Lundwe: These programmes, when implemented, will create the much needed wealth for the people through management in programme implementation and productive use of water in key sectors of agriculture, manufacturing, mining and tourism.

Mr Sichilima: Quality!

Ms Lundwe: Mr Speaker, although massive investments have been made in the water sector over the years successfully, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Question!

Ms Lundwe: … there is still a great need for increased funding to the water sector. This year’s devastating floods re-affirms the need for an urgent increase in funding to the water sector to enhance storage of excess water through construction of dams, thus preventing any potential threat to property and life.

On the other hand, the dams and weirs will serve as storage reservoirs to address any drought that may occur. Therefore, if the aspirations of economic wealth and development of the Zambian society are to be realised, hon. Members should support the estimates of expenditure in this year’s Budget.

Mr Speaker, allow me also to talk about some past achievements. A quick review of past performance indicates that the water sector has, in the past decade, recorded a number of successes and no doubt, this has resulted into increased productivity in areas of agriculture as well as improved well being of the majority of the rural population as well witnessed today.

This continued improvement in the way the water resources are managed, coupled with a steady increase in funding to the sector, has resulted in food surplus recorded in the past season as pointed out in this year’s Budget Address by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: Nonetheless, increased funding to the sector is still needed for better results in line with this year’s budget theme of “Unlocking Resources for Economic Empowerment and Wealth Creation.”

Mr Speaker, water being one of the key natural resources, it is important that it is managed and harnessed in a sustainable manner and made available to meet the various demands for economic growth. However, the competing use of water highlights the need for an integrated management approach in ensuring access to water for all growing sectors of the economy such as agriculture and manufacturing and not hinder economic development. Thus, the policy and legal instruments that underpin the management of water resources must be adapted to reflect these priorities and varying demands of consumers.

Mr Speaker, in this regard, the Ministry of Energy and Water Development has been spearheading water reforms, starting from the separation of provision of water supply services to water resources management. This has, successfully, resulted into creation of a number of water utility companies and a regulatory body called the National Water Supply and Sanitation Council (NWASCO).

The last part of the reforms dealing with water resources development and management, under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, is still underway. A Draft Water Resources Management Bill has since been developed in consultation with all the relevant stakeholders, countrywide. This Draft Bill is yet to be tabled before you, hon. Members, and I would urge you to support it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: It is worth noting that although the funding to the water sector was inadequate in the last year’s Budget, a number of achievements were recorded. These include:

(a) rehabilitation and setting up of a number of hydrometric stations for hydrological assessments;

(b) undertaking of water quality assessment for both surface and groundwater quality monitoring wells have been constructed;

(c) exploration and construction of boreholes countrywide; and

(d) rehabilitation and construction of a number of dams countrywide. Considering that agriculture development depends on how well we harness the water resources.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, since water plays an important role in augmenting the standards of living, as we all know that water is life, it is important, therefore, to remind ourselves of the challenge to us all, of ensuring that our society develops in a way that can function effectively within the constraints of the available limited water resource. Economic development, use and protection of the water resources should be a common goal for us all rather than a source of conflicts. I urge you, once more, to support the Budget.

Mr Speaker, if the growth recorded in the tourism and agriculture sectors, as outlined in the 2008 Budget Address, is to be sustained yet again this year, there is, indeed, a great need for us to understand the importance of the water sector to steer economic growth, uplift the living standards of the majority of the people as well as mitigate the management of the devastating floods currently rocking the country through undertaking the programmes planned under the Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this privilege to debate the Motion on the Floor of the House.

Sir, I am aware that a number of hon. Members of Parliament have contributed and debated, passionately, the Budget that has been presented on the Floor of the House. Therefore, I only have very few words and those words are simply of lamentation.

Mr Speaker, I would like to mention here that I have only been in the House for less than two years. The one year and a few months that I have been in this House have taught me a lot.

However, I would like to mention that when I was on the campaign trail …

Hon. Members: Where?

Mr Mwenya: … in Nkana Constituency, my message to the people was that, once I was elected to Parliament, I would take development to the area. I looked at the state of my constituency; the state of the roads in my area …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are not listening because of the noise.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your protection.

Sir, I was saying, I looked at the state of the roads, the only hospital that we have in Kitwe, Kitwe Central Hospital; the housing for the medical personnel, the doctors and nurses in my constituency and the state of the schools. I also looked at the number of children who were sitting on the floor in their classrooms. Therefore, the people of Nkana agreed with me, that for sure, the representative they had in Nkana was not doing enough and, therefore, we needed change, hence they elected me to come and represent them.

Mr Speaker, I participated in last year’s Budget debate, knowing very well that my constituency was going to benefit from the Budget allocations.

Today, I stand before you in this august House to say that there is nothing that I can point at that we budgeted for last year for my constituency.

Reverend Nyirongo: Why?

Mr Mwenya: Yes, I agree with you, Hon Nyirongo, because …

Dr Katema: Echo ba mikakila!

Mr Mwenya: …yesterday, my Provincial Minister told me why there is no development on the Copperbelt and specifically in my constituency. He said there was no way they were going to take development to areas where there are Opposition Members of Parliament. Those words came from the Copperbelt Provincial Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mwenya: That is very shameful!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I need your serious ruling and guidance. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House and the nation that there is no development in Kitwe, when I, personally, inspected the roads being constructed in Kitwe? I also inspected a beautiful market being built in Kitwe, worth over K10 billion. Is he in order to say this Government, which has been so fair that it is constructing a road which people call Bottom Road, regardless of why it is called Bottom, …

Laughter

Mr Magande: … in a place where we lost the elections, as MMD?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Is it in order for him to mislead this House?

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, as the hon. Member for Nkana debates, he can take that point of order into account.

Mr Mwenya: Thank you, Mr Speaker.
 
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 until 1830 hours.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, business was suspended, I was mentioning before this august House that my contribution on this Motion is more of a lamentation than anything else.

Sir, in Kitwe and specifically, in Nkana Constituency, there is no road that we can talk about that has been worked on and that has pleased the people of Nkana. We have a vibrant hard working hon. Minister of Works and Supply who has traveled extensively in the country and I am happy that he is putting so much pressure on the contractors who have been doing shoddy works.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Sir, all the roads that have been rehabilitated in Kitwe are of very poor workmanship. Currently, all the few roads that were rehabilitated have potholes.

Mr Speaker, I do not walk with my head high in my constituency. At the month end, there are very long queues at Commercial Bank ATM Machines. People queue to collect money. Some of them have to stand in the queue from as early as 0400 hours in the morning only to collect their money maybe around 1800 hours or 1900 hours. We cannot say that we are actually developing or improving as a nation. Something has to be done about this.

Sir, the low cost side at the Kitwe Central Hospital is one area that I do not think any hon. Member of Parliament would accept to be admitted there. Patients have to come in as early as 0400 hours and queue and they would be lucky to see a doctor in one single day of queuing. At times, it takes about two or three days for a patient to be seen by a doctor.

Mr Speaker, I do not remember the last time the flats that we have at Kitwe Central Hospital for the nurses received a coat of paint. I do not know whether they have water and sanitation facilities in their rooms. At the workers’ compound, the houses there are not habitable at all, but we have allowed people to live in them. They have requested the Government to allow them to purchase the units so that they can rehabilitate them on their own, but the Government has rejected their request. We, therefore, would like the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to find time to see the state of the quarters that have been provided to the workers who are providing a noble service to the Zambian people.

Mr Speaker, I find it very difficult that, in this House, we are more of a talk shop than an action oriented House and yet the people in our constituencies are living in poverty. In my constituency, it is like the councils have shifted their responsibilities to me, as a hon. Member of Parliament. They give the responsibility to manage all the works that are supposed to be undertaken in a constituency to a hon. Member of Parliament. They want the Member of Parliament to repair the street lights, roads and provide health services in a constituency and yet, the hon. Member of Parliament is only given K60 million which is not even adequate to build a servant’s quarter.

Interruptions

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I agree that our hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has been doing so much work. We are happy now that CDF has been increased to as much as K400 million although it has not yet been approved in this year’s Budget. Regardless, K400 million is not adequate for us to address the concerns that we have in our constituencies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, K400 million is not sufficient to grade two or three roads in my constituency. We are all aware that to rehabilitate a kilometre road, it costs K1 billion.

Sir, last year, we received hon. Members of Parliament from Kenya and they laughed at us. It was not surprising. They said they came here to learn how we have implemented the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) programme. When they took this idea to Kenya, they went and improved it. In Kenya today, hon. Members of Parliament …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwenya:… receive not less than K10 billion per constituency so as to bring development in their constituencies. They get this amount of money for them to carry out their developmental projects in their constituencies. I would like to appeal to Hon. Magande that it is important to consider the 150 Members of Parliament in the House. When preparing your Budget, at least, he should ask us to identify a project which must be funded directly per constituency so that we talk about sharing the national cake equally.

Mr Speaker, therefore, when we are budgeting, that money should not only be for rural development without bringing any development in town. You talk about constructing houses for the teachers in rural areas, but nothing happens. It is more difficult for the teachers who are in town to survive because accommodation has become very expensive. If you cannot provide accommodation for teachers in town, it becomes very difficult for them to teach.

Mr Speaker, we have police officers, but unfortunately, we heard from the Inspector-General of Police in one of the newspapers that police officers are the most corrupt workers we have in the Civil Service and this is very bad indeed. We need to try, by all means, to correct that. However, you cannot blame them because, as a Government, you have failed to provide accommodation. You have failed to give them a living wage that they can survive on. They are human beings with families. They also would like to take their children to better schools.

Hon. PF Member: Muleumfwa?

Mr Mwenya: They would also like to own their own properties, including vehicles and be able to support their relatives and parents. I found it very complex, hon. Minister, when you spoke about K600, 000 as threshold for Pay-As-You-Earn. In Zambia, the formal sector comprises about 500,000 workers. When you say that because of the threshold increase from K500, 000 to K600, 000, you will lose out on K68.8 billion, I find it very difficult to believe because out of the K100, 000 loss from increase, you will be giving to the people only K25, 000.

Mr Speaker, when you multiply K500, 000 by K25, 000, you get K12.5 billion. The formal sector has 500,000 workers.

Mr Mulyata: Your figures are wrong.

Mr Mwenya: These are the figure that we know. If you are telling me that the formal sector has 2.7 million plus employees, we may start to agree on that figure.

Mr Speaker, we have a problem in this country. When the President presented his Speech, he spoke about land. We have a problem because this country is so much carried away with investors and that it forgets its own people. We are talking about economic zones. We are not thinking about creating areas where the people can stay. There are illegal structures being erected because the Government has not created land to allocate to the people.

Mr Speaker, in the colonial era, there were low, medium and high cost areas. Today, it is not easy for a common person to go to the council and acquire land. They will be told that there is no land, but meanwhile, there is construction going on in the nation. If you are lucky, you are told to buy a form at K100, 000, but you will wait for a long time and the only plot that you will get is at the cemetery because you will never ever get that plot to construct a house.

Mr Speaker, today, if you are allocated a plot, the plot premium is about K5 million in the councils. How many of the poor people will manage to acquire these plots? I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to look into this matter and give the hon. Minister of Local Housing and the hon. Minister of Lands adequate finances to demarcate land that can be accessed by the poor and the medium-income group, and land that will help the people to stop constructing illegal structures.

Mr Speaker, lastly, but not the least, it is my desire to bring development to my area. This year, again, I am asking all the ministries to specifically tell us what the projects that they have budgeted for are. We want to go back to the constituencies and tell the people that, yes, in this year’s Budget, in Nkana, they will construct another hospital. We should move away from lying to the people because the people out there are listening.

Hon. Government Members: Lying?

Mr Mwenya: Cheating, if you want me to use that word or misinforming the people. Let us stop misinforming the people. I know, for instance, that the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development knows deep down his heart that I saw him last week discussing the Constituency Youth Development Fund (CYDF) and I was disappointed in this House when he said, “No, I do not know anything about that, as far as I know, the funds have been allocated and utilised”. He knows very well that we have problems with the District Commissioners.

Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to, please, help us to put a system in place. The DCs should know their limitations. We also need to know our limitations. If the DCs …

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for allowing me to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member in order to start appealing to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to get involved when we had already discussed with him and advised him to come to the office? Must he bring that issue, again, on the Floor of the House?

The Deputy Chairperson: You see, hon. Member for Nkana, the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing is saying that you have discussed that issue, and therefore, as you debate, take that into account.

Continue, please.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, I thank you. Yes, I did have a chat with him a few minutes ago, but this is an issue which is affecting all constituencies, even those in the Government are facing the same problems.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Therefore, we are saying let us put a system in place. As a Member of Parliament, I need to know my limitations, and DCs should also know their limitations. This is because now we have conflicts at the end of the day and we are creating a situation where we look as though it is we, the Opposition Members of Parliament, who are creating problems, and yet it is them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, on those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate the Budget for this year. Before I proceed to discuss the Budget, I would like to mention and disagree with the assertion that the Government has no business in business. I strongly believe that it is the duty of the Government to be in business. Any responsible Government ensures that the business that affects the livelihood of the people is protected. That is why, at one time, your Government had to intercede on behalf of the workers at RAMCOZ by paying off the loan so that RAMCOZ could continue operating. That was a Government in business. This Government also interceded on behalf of so many other companies in this country for the benefit of the workers.

Mr Speaker, in the same vein, I would like to earnestly appeal to this Government to come to the aid of Mukuyu Farm in Mazabuka. Mukuyu Farm, which employees more than 3, 000 people is under receivership. This is a company which has made credence to some assertions that this Government exports coffee. All this is as a result of Mukuyu Farm. If we allow this company to go under, more than 24, 000 people in Mazabuka will be affected. I would like to earnestly appeal, through the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, to see how they can be assisted. Responsible governments, like the United Kingdom, assisted the Northern Rock when it was going under.

Sir, when certain companies were going under, the Government of the United States of America bailed them out.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! In most cases, hon. Ministers are usually quiet, but in this particular case, I would like to appeal to them to listen to the hon. Member on the Floor.

Could the hon. Member for Monze, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, in Katuba Constituency, Central Province, the people of Katuba have suffered due to the failures of the Food Reserve Agency. Unfortunately, there is no one to speak on their behalf in this House.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: I am now speaking on behalf of the people of Katuba Parliamentary Constituency because they must be assisted.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would, therefore, like to appeal for assistance on behalf of the people of Chilanga and Keembe in particular. The road in Keembe has been washed away due to flooding and yet there has been no voice in this House to speak on behalf of the people of Keembe. I am, therefore, speaking on behalf of the people of Keembe.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze in order to ignore the fact that a few days ago, I appeared on TV in knee-deep water in Keembe speaking on behalf of the people of Keembe. Is he in order, therefore, to mislead the nation and yet, there are a lot of people from Monze in my constituency. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, the Chair feels that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs has adequately debated his point of order. Having said that, can the hon. Member on the Floor take what the hon. Minister has said into account.

Could you, please, continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am very happy that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, who is also the hon. Member of Parliament for Keembe, has spoken on behalf of the people of Keembe to day in this House.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, before I proceed to debate on issues that directly affect my constituency, I would like to talk about the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, most of the failures that have been occasioned in this country arise out of a defective Constitution. I know that the hon. Colleagues of mine who refuse to go to the National Constitution Conference have always asked for a new Constitution …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu:… that will address issues pertaining to development.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that this country has failed to develop because of a defective Constitution. We have been failing to address Budget issues in this House because of a defective Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I am glad that for the first time since I came in this House, there has been a response to the cries of the people that we are making progress in coming up with a new Constitution. Therefore, I would like to appeal to all my colleagues who mean well to come on board so that we can come up with a new Constitution that will regulate the Executive, the Legislature and the Judiciary.

Sir, we are all aware that the elections in this country have always been contentious because of the defective Constitution and the electoral process. I tend to think, and I firmly believe, that we will only be able to resolve these issues once we have a new Constitution.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Before that, we will continue having problems in this country. I have great respect for those who have chosen not to join us in the process, but I have no doubt in my mind that even those who are outside still support the process.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: As UPND, we have always consulted the Church and the NGOs who are not participating in the Constitution process.

Hon. UPN Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to them to feel free to consult us over this matter and make their submissions. However, I would like to put in a caveat that, in the event that our colleagues became arrogant in the Constitution making process, UPND reserves the right to take a very bold decision of withdrawing from the process, …

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … but I tend to think that we may not reach that point for we all want to have a new Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I have noted, with sadness, that despite that I had read in the papers on the consolation that we had received over the purported declaration of the floods in this country as a disaster, it has been rebated by junior officers in the Government who have said His Excellency was misquoted. As far as we are concerned, on your left side, there is a national disaster in this country. We would, therefore, like to support the Government in formally declaring that we have a national disaster if they have not done that.

For those who have not witnessed the floods this year, I would like to tell you to ask Hon. Shikapwasha who has experienced the effects floods in Keembe. The entire infrastructure has been destroyed in this country. This year, most of the people are not going to reap any produce, whatsoever, because of the floods. As result of the destruction of the crops this year, there is going to be hunger in almost every constituency. As a result of that, the prices of essential commodities will go up. This, in turn, will affect attainment of a single digit inflation rate. There are so many ramifications. I would like to appeal to the Government to take this matter seriously.

Sir, my brothers from Western Province who usually rejoice when there are floods, saw people lament the occurrence thereof on TV. The situation is very serious.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: It concerns all of us. Through you, Sir, I would like to appeal that this Government should consider establishing a special fund to address issues of floods in this country. Even borrowing - if the hon. Minister of Finance and National Panning indicates to the nation that he would want to borrow money intentionally, I will support the idea if it is intended to mitigate the effects of floods vis-à-vis repairing infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, recently, I have heard some people who were in the local Government system and were in charge making unreasonable statements condemning the situation in Kanyama and attributing it to those who are in Government today.

Mr Speaker, the flooding in Kanyama is not a new phenomenon.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: You recall that in 1978, there was the Kanyama Disaster. There were people who were in Government who were responsible, are there  even on that side, but now they want to shift the blame to others who did not enrol. They did not do anything to ensure that the flooding in Kanyama is redressed.

Hon. Opposition Member: Rupiah Banda.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the wallowing in poverty of the people is as a result of the failure of the MMD Government to support and finance the Local Government system. It is not strange to hear that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and councils in particular have been making budgets and pleas to this Government to finance the Local Government system so that situations, like the one obtaining in Kanyama, are addressed. We are now told by this Government that the standard of life of the people in Kanyama has tremendously improved as the poverty levels are down to 34 per cent.

Mrs Musokotwane: Congratulations!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, have you ever been to Kanyama, Misisi and Kabanana? The people there live in squalor. They cannot sit outside because human excrete is flowing everyday outside their homes.

Mrs Musokotwane: Shame!

Mr Mwiimbu: How can you say that the standard of life of these people has improved? The K16 billion which we have found this year should have been channelled through the Ministry of Local Government and Housing for proper planning and construction of a proper drainage system. I know it is good to drain the water in Kanyama, but I can assure you that you are just glossing over the effects. You are not addressing the real issues in Kanyama. Those drainages need to be …

Mr Nsanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, I am raising this point of order because I would like to find out from the hon. Member on the Floor why he is asking for money to address the Kanyama floods, and yet he was rejoicing outside the Chamber over the K350 billion they are going to get paid at the National Constitution Conference (NCC). Why do we not postpone the NCC for 2 years?

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order!

Mr Nsanda: Is he in order to ask for more money and yet there is K350 billion for NCC sitting allowances? Is he in order to complain to the Government that there is no money?

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is only one Chairperson and the point of order is directed at the Chair. This is one issue where the Chair feels that he cannot make a ruling or an explanation. I think that there are times we can go that far. In view of this, I think that point of order is unsustainable.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. The party of the one who has raised the point of order has been making petitionable documents and statements in Kanyama. They are saying that even as we are sitting today, we are receiving allowances from NCC. This is what the document is saying.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: I will lay it on the Table, Mr Speaker.

UPND Members: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: We should all be basing our debates on facts. We should not be peddling half truths to the nation. The NCC is not sitting. We are sitting as a Parliament and this documents misleading the nation is petitionable. I would like to ask all those who are contesting to protest to the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: You cannot issue such statements which are misleading the electorates.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hammer!

Mr Mwiimbu: I will lay it on the Table.

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: Who is the author?

Mr Mwiimbu: This document is from the PF “Floods in Kanyama in Zambia” and it is signed by M. C. Sata.

UPND Members: Read it.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would not like to dwell so much on it, as I will lay the document on the Table.

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I rarely stand up to raise a point of order. Is the hon. Member, who is debating so well, in order to mislead this House that there are some people who were in Government, when he, himself, was a Town Clerk at that time and the leader of the party he cited was a Local Government Minister at that time? Is he in order to mislead this House that he was not in Government, and he was in quasi-Government as Town Clerk of Lusaka? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, you will recall that normally, the Chair makes comments while seated. I have decided to stand because I would like to seize the opportunity of that point of order, by reminding hon. Members of the following:

That a point of order should be relevant to the issue under discussion, should be on procedure and decorum of the House. That it must be relevant, in this case, means that the point of order useful as it is, should have been raised when the hon. Member was talking about the issue at that point in time. Now, the hon. Minister has raised a point of order when the hon. Member has already left that issue and is debating another issue. Therefore, on that account, I will not make a ruling on that point of order.

Can the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is not normally possible to impregnate a woman who is eight months pregnant. It is not possible.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: The situation in the Local Government system had already collapsed when I was in the Local Government.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member for Monze, you are going back to the issue on which I have already ruled. Let us forget about it.

You may continue, please.

Interruptions

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to appeal to the Government to address the issues of agriculture in this country. The Government has been preaching that the agriculture sector in this country is a success. Unfortunately, in this year’s Budget, there is a significant reduction in budgetary provisions in the agriculture sector. It is not too late to be a varmint so that the votes pertaining to agriculture can be increased. I also would like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to address the marketing problems that are dogging the agriculture sector.

To date, Mr Speaker, the farmers in Chadiza have not yet been paid by the Food Reserve Agency (FRA). The farmers in Kalabo have not been paid.

Mrs Musokotwane: Vulela!

Mr Mwiimbu: The poverty level in Kalabo, Liuwa, in particular, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: … is the highest in this country, …

Mr Matongo: Eating mangoes.

Mr Mwiimbu: … but the other day, we had somebody debating on the Floor of this House, praising this Government on how successful it is for taking development to Liuwa. Alas! The people of Liuwa are eating dried mangoes.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! You know, the Chair sometimes tends to overlook an issue hoping that the hon. Members would take heed. We have always advised that the moment you begin discussing issues in the context of individuals, you invite others to clear the air. You were debating very well, but as soon as you said, “the hon. Member for Liuwa”, he stood up and said, “Point of order!”.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Anyway, the hon. Member for Liuwa can raise his point of order.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Imasiku: … this is my first point of order in this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why?

Mr Imasiku: Is the hon. Member in order to insinuate that I said that Liuwa does not have problems and yet I was on television talking about the floods and the other problems in Liuwa. In my debate, I never cited Liuwa. I was just trying to discuss the economic indicators which people are misinterpreting. Is he in order, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: You have heard for yourself.

The hon. Member for Monze, may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, he did not discuss Liuwa because he is very happy with whatever the Government is doing there.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to consider removing the Youth Empowerment Fund from the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund. A lot of our youths in all our constituencies benefited from the Youth Empowerment Fund. The regulations under the Citizenship Economic Empowerment Fund are so stringent that the people in the rural areas cannot follow them. The poor women in the rural areas cannot afford to come up with feasibility studies in order to get K2 million. That money should go back to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and the other money should go …

Ms Siliya: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: No more!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: This will be the last point of order that will be allowed on the individual debating.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, for the record, this is my first point of order as well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Why!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member of Parliament, who is very eloquent in his debate, in order to mislead this House that the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment Fund rules are very stringent and yet even I, as a hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, have not seen them yet?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! If he can, the hon. Member for Monze should take that point of order into account as he debates the rules.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I sympathise with my sister that she has not seen the draft of the rules on Citizen’s Empowerment Fund. I was specifically referring to the rules pertaining to the Youth Empowerment Fund that has been transferred to the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment Fund that has stringent regulations that most of our youths cannot access these funds.

Hon. Government Members: Point of order!

The Deputy Chairperson: No more points of order.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would also like to echo the sentiments of my colleagues on the issue of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). I am very happy that Hon. Magande is nodding before I even mention the figure. We need this figure to be increased to K1 billion so that those who have been complaining in Chilanga can access it. This is the only Fund that is not discretional because it goes to every constituency. If we want to achieve development in all the constituencies, we should ensure that we increase the Constituency Development Fund to K1 billion. The people in Ndola rural are very happy because I note that the acting Vice-President is agreeing with me.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this rare opportunity to contribute to the debate on the 2008 Budget. In my contribution, I would like to make some comments on the issues that have been raised by the previous speakers. It is very interesting that hon. Members from both your left and right have praised where they come from or belong. I would like to state that it is very important to acknowledge that economically, Zambia is not the same as it was six years ago.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: It is also very important to realise that this Government means well and is serious.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: It is also very important to underline that hon. Ministers work through a collective agreement. It is collective agreement to deliver a service to the community. A lot has improved in this country regardless of what you belong to. It is just important …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muteteka: … to acknowledge that, in every constituency, something has been done by this Government. This Government has tried to educate those who do not see, but have ears to see.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: They have eyes to see. Even in the Bible, it is mentioned that you have eyes to see, but you do not see. You have ears to hear, but you do not hear. A lot of our colleagues on your left have seen the developments that have been achieved by this Government. They are now talking about CDF which has been increased to K200 million by this Government under the leadership of President Mwanawasa.

Mr Mulyata: It is now K400 million.

Mr Muteteka: Hopefully, it will be improved to K400 million. They have been given this Fund, budgeted for it and are seeing improvement. For example, in my constituency, a mortuary is under construction from that money.

Mr Chota: There is nothing in my constituency.

Mr Muteteka: This Government has given every constituency this money. It is just normal and wise to wake up and see the direction that the Government has taken in terms of development. The economic indicators that the others have spoken about are real. We are not going backwards, but forward.

Mr Speaker, let us give praise where it is due. Even when Dr Kenneth Kaunda is praised, it is because he did something and we appreciate that, but he also made mistakes. Dr Frederick Chiluba’s regime performed. Let us give praise where he did well, but he also made mistakes.

Mr Hamir: Quality.

Mr Muteteka: When we come to President Mwanawasa’s Government, he is delivering, but I will not ignore the fact that there have been some mistakes such as implementation which our colleagues have been talking about.

Mr Mulyata: Mwanawasa, no mistake.

Mr Muteteka: In some cases, we are slow to deliver, but we are coming. This Government is making progress. We are making progress and development is going to constituencies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: This is the only Government that I have seen with the Fifth National Development Plan. It was not there in the previous regimes. It is a guiding tool to those who have had time to read. Even when we die, our children will follow it in future.

Mr Mulyata: Yes!

Mr Muteteka: No one has pointed out a serious anomaly in the Fifth National Development Plan. Even if the Opposition forms the next Government, they will still have to respect that document.

Interruptions

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, the Mwanawasa Government has created investor confidence.

Mr Simuusa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I have read the Fifth National Development Plan and on the Internet, for the information of the hon. Member of Parliament, there are several and well documented complaints against the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). One of them even says …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member debating in order to mislead the nation that there have been no anomalies highlighted in the FNDP and that there have been no serious criticism of that plan?

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, let us give the opportunity to the hon. Member for Chisamba to debate and if there is anything we disagree with, we will have the opportunity to say so at an appropriate time.

Can the hon. Member for Chisamba continue.

Mr Muteteka: Thank you, Sir, for that wise guidance.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member who was trying to disturb me has not come up with a single line to illustrate that the Plan is faulty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: So, I am correct.

Mr Speaker, in Bemba, they say, “Ushitasha mwana wandosh”,’ meaning that …

Mr Mulyata: Say it in Tonga!

Mr Muteteka: … if you are a descendant of a witch, you will never know how to say thank you.

Mr Mubika: Utalumbi Mubwa!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, this New Deal Government has paid attention to many concerns from both the left and the right. This is why it responsive. For instance, the windfall tax is a positive response because it is a national concern. However, you will never find our colleagues praising us or congratulating us for listening to them.

Mr Speaker, I am appealing to all hon. Members that, for the sake of this country, it is wise for us all to realise and reason together. Yes, we accept checks and balances, but why checks and balances? It will not pay to over dramatise issues which concern citizens. It will never do to behave like hypocrites. We are national leaders here, therefore, let us realise that we are taking this country forward.

Mr Speaker, the President is giving a vision just like the 2030 Vision. We have to work together because we are now debating the Budget which is guiding us.

Mr Speaker, the theme of the Budget talks about unlocking resources. For me, resources were unlocked during the Heavily Indebted Poor Country (HIPC) Initiative Completion Point. This is proper now to confirm. If I remember very well, when we were trying to make sure we achieve the HIPC Initiative, the President said, tighten your belts, we have to achieve the HIPC Initiative Completion Point. Zambia went through it and today, we have reached the HIPC Initiative Completion Point. Therefore, is there anything wrong for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to say we are “unlocking resources for wealth creation”? Do you want him to say tighten your belts, again?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Muteteka: Let us appreciate that we are making progress and not going backwards.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, Zambia is an undeveloped country and that is common knowledge. Do not forget that you are as undeveloped as Zambia, therefore the resources are erratic. We survive on what we have as a country. For as long as we are a developing nation, do not expect things to happen the way God did it when He was creating things on earth where He would say, “Let there be rivers, and it was, let there be man, and he was”. This is a nation managed by people created by God.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: We just need to work hard to realise our targets. Do not exaggerate. We do not have the money for an airport, hospitals and schools in Nchanga.

Hon. Government Members: Within ninety days.

Mr Muteteka: Within ninety days.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: This Budget is managed by people who went to school. I hope that all of us went to school. We have to study and understand. If you quote in the Budget when we come to structural reforms, the hon. Minister promised that we were going to quicken the execution of the Budget by implementing the Financial Sector Development Plan (FSDP), Public Service Management (PSM), Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability (PEMFA) and Private Sector Development (PSD) initiatives, in line with the Budget. Can we interpret what the hon. Minister means? That is the light at the end of the tunnel. That is hope. That is unity. That is a vision. Why can you not see it yourselves?

Mr Mulyata: They are blind.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, we have to accept as I made indications that each Government has had successes and failures. From 1991 to 2001, I would cite an example of how one can trust a learner driver with a brand new Mercedes Benz. You pick a learner driver and ask him to drive to Mufulira in the brand new Mercedes Benz from Germany.

Mr Speaker, a leaner driver is a learner driver. And we did that. That Mercedes Benz overturned. It actually crashed. We entrusted that driver to repair a Mercedes Benz. Those who have never seen a Mercedes Benz, you have to order spare parts from Germany and it takes time. It requires an expert.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: This country was driven by a learner driver for some time and he crashed the Benz.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Dr Mwanawasa is ordering spare parts to repair this Benz.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, it takes time. It does not take ninety days. We are working to entrust a leadership of the people in someone who went to school, the learned people. And we are going to improve on that. We will never go back.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: We mean well.

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, it will not do for those who are trained to oppose this development.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: It will not do if you have only two agendas. To come here to discredit the Government that is working so that you confuse the situation and take over even when you do not have an agenda.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, let them find time to understand what Government is all about. I know it is not their fault. Some of them have neither been in Government before nor do they understand the system in the Government. I am telling you, Mr Speaker, that I do understand the machinery very well …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: … and it is very wise that each and everyone should pay attention to understand this. Let us not see the Government from the outside. Go inside by investigating and researching. Then, you will know and when you want to speak, you will speak from a point of knowledge.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: When my colleague from here (right side) was debating and talking about what this Government is doing in the Southern Province, he ended up by saying “do people really appreciate?” I understood him as saying some of you people from somewhere are ungrateful. Look, let us not go to that extent of describing you ungrateful.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: It is not good. The people out there should not find us getting into that cobweb. Let us appreciate the efforts of the Government. This Government is moving. Yes, you have to push us. That is your mandate. You have to remind us where we are slow. You have to remind us where we are dozing. It is important, but we are moving.

Hon. Government Member: Hammer, mwana!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, let me now comment on my constituency based on this Budget and the one year that I have been in Chisamba Constituency. What I have achieved, through this Government, this hardworking Government, this serious Government, Mr Speaker, is change in Chisamba.

As much as the whole country has seen change where we are improving the economy, Chisamba equally has not been left out. At the moment in terms of health, we have completed one clinic in Malombe. The other clinic in Momboshi is at the window level. We are now building a mortuary which has never existed in Chisamba. Lifwambula Clinic is on the ground. With this background, how do you describe that? In one year, is that failure?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, with regard to the education sector, plans are underway to construct Chisamba High School. As I am speaking now, tender procedures are being completed. What more do you want? What indicators do you want?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muteteka: Sir, let me also comment on the Rural Electrification Programme. From Mukambo …

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chimbaka: Sir, I have been trying to avoid raising a point of order. However, my conscious tells me that I should raise one. Is the hon. Member of Parliament on the Floor of the ground …

Mr Mulyata: Ground!

Mr Chimbaka: … so well, so articulate, in order to insinuate that the Government and the leadership that led in the Third Republic disastrously led this country into the state it is?

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: This means that they were incompetent and had never gone to school ...

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: … and yet, in actual fact, some of the hon. Members of Parliament and hon. Ministers sitting on your right …

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: … were members of that Government. Is it in order for him to insinuate that now that they are there, they went for training?

The Deputy Chairperson: As I said, we have very little time, but the hon. Member for Chisamba is debating and he is expressing his views. I hope that, after he has spoken, since I will give the Floor to a Member of the Opposition, he can correct what the hon. Member for Chisamba is saying if what he is saying is not correct. Therefore, let us hear his point of view.

Please, continue, hon. Member.

Mr Muteteka: I know that the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati (Mr Chimbaka) has been trying to come and settle in Chisamba and I am still looking into his case.

Laughter

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, it is because Chisamba is attractive.

Mr Mbewe: He will be one of your voters.

Mr Muteteka: Sir, I would like to repeat what I said. I categorically made reference to the previous Governments. I said each Government delivered a reasonable percentage of development. We are still seeing what was left behind by the Kaunda Regime. That is what I said, but I also said, he made terrible and general mistakes. That is why he was removed from power.

With regard to the Chiluba Government, the same thing happened. He also made achieved something. He delivered to a certain extent. Let us not forget about everything. He did something which he must be remembered for, but he also made mistakes like I gave an example of a crashed Benz.

Now, we are in the Mwanawasa Administration.

Mr Mulyata: There is no mistake!

Mr Muteteka: Right now we are able to see what he is doing. As I am speaking, even these microphones in the Chamber have come in the New Deal Administration.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: It is very interesting, but let us come to the table and unit to deliver for the people of Zambia. Let us not come here and over dramatise our anger. The elections time is over.

Mr Speaker, I was talking about my constituency and the mortuary which is under construction and I was about to start talking about the Rural Electrification Programme.

Sir, Momboshi School has now been connected with electricity and all the teachers sleep comfortably in well lit homes. Mupelekese has also been electrified. Two dams have also been constructed and were completed last November. These things are coming from the Government and not from someone who said that within ninety days, he was going to change things.

Mr Speaker, I cannot over praise my own Government. Let me also be allowed to mention something that is not pleasing to me.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Last year, the allocation of K7.5 billion was meant for the construction of the Ngwerere-Chisamba Road, but it has not been constructed to date. The same amount of money is reflected in this year’s Budget. Mr Speaker, as an active Member of Parliament, I have already told my electorates about this. When I see things in the Budget, I always rush to my constituency to inform my electorates what the Government has given me.

Mr Chimbaka: That is what we do.

Mr Muteteka: Now, if these things are not forthcoming, then we will …

Mr Chimbaka: You are crashing!

Interruptions

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I agree with the sentiments from the hon. Members of the Opposition …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: …on speeding up implementation. I know that is it not intentional, but I would like my Government to work on the tender procedures. There is a lot of bureaucracy in this process. I am, therefore, appealing to the hon. Ministers responsible for what I am talking about to see to it that the officers in the Government speed up the implementation. They should not waste time going for workshops. They should see to it that they respond to this Budget because the people in the rural areas are now wise and they know what is taking place.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, really, it is very frustrating to think of going to your constituency when you have not delivered what you told the people the Government had put in the Budget. In this regard, I am appealing to the Government that where we are slow, we should speed up.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I would like to conclude by saying that, indeed, this Government is very serious. It has very focused hon. Ministers who are working together. It is not pleasing to talk about each other. This is a collective arrangement which is united in delivering one common service. Therefore, those who are trying to single out individual hon. Ministers should not over praise them because it is about this Government and they have a vision, plan and a Budget.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me the privilege to contribute on the Motion of Supply. I realise that a lot of hon. Members have spoken and have raised very pertinent issues concerning the contents of the Budget.

Sir, the Budget is so important and critical to the development of the country such that to expect the Opposition to give praises only is too much. By its very nature, the Budget distributes the finances of this country to the areas of concern countrywide. Consequently, each hon. Member who stands up is raising issues concerning what he or she feels is going to need in his or her constituency.

Mr Speaker, I would like to talk about what I consider as fundamental problems within the way revenue is corrected in the country. I will begin with the energy sector. When the Budget talks about collecting money and giving it as it was released to the public, there are some fundamental questions that need to be asked. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning mentioned the increase in the tax threshold rising from K500,000 to K600,000.

Sir, who are captured in that deduction or in that relief? It is only those who are probably working in farms such as house servants and maids. Probably, those have received some relief. I do not think it is true to say that relief extends to the public officer who is sweeping in the offices. I do not think that the people who make tea in the offices and drivers have received this relief. Very clearly, most of these people are already getting above K600,000. What this means is that they fall in the category of those for whom taxes have been increased because the taxes have been banded and it is 35 per cent for the rest. It means, in effect, they will be paying more instead of having relief on their side. That is a concern for me. This means that the poor are going to become poorer by the tax regime that has been introduced.

Mr Speaker, when we are collecting taxes, I think concern must be added also to how much people are getting and how the money is being spent and used. Among the major problems that we are facing, is the way, for example, fuel is taxed in the country.

Sir, if the MMD Government’ s interest is in ensuring that the country develops, then they must make the playing field very even between those who come into the country to invest as well as those who are in the country and want to invest in their country.

Mr Speaker, firstly, and this is extremely important, is the question of fuel. What do we find concerning taxes on fuel? I was reading a small paper entitled Taxation of Petroleum Products in Zambia. I found out that Zambia has the highest taxes on petroleum products in the whole of Africa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, in effect, that means that the cost of doing business in this country is extremely high. It means that we have too much to spend on petroleum products before the person or individual makes any money in the country. Every investor is concerned about how much he or she will have to spend as a cost towards investing in a country. We have lost at least two companies in the last five years. Dunlop is one of the companies and it has relocated to Zimbabwe. They gave one reason that the cost of doing business in Zambia is too high.

Mr Speaker, Unilever is another company that has relocated to a neighbouring country, and the same reason that the cost of running business in this country is high was given.

Hon. PF Member: It is the MMD.

Mr Mwansa: It is the MMD Government and I am not making any distinctions. There has not been another MMD Government, therefore, you should not make unnecessary distinctions.

Interruptions

Mr Mwansa: Suffice to say that the MMD, which is now being called the New Deal, is actually a creature of the first MMD.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: We should not be making distinctions between obvious things. If the first MMD had not appointed the new MMD leader, there would have been no New Deal Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: We must accept that we will only learn from history if we are objective. Since when did the MMD change from MMD 1 to MMD 2? We saw a transfer of power from one MMD leader to another MMD leader.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Therefore, there is no change as far as I am concerned.

Sir, the point that I am raising is simply that if the cost of running business in the country is high, we are going to lose investment to other countries. That is the point that I am raising here, and the cost of running business in Zambia is extremely high.

Mr Speaker, there are taxes on fuel. Let me just quote from the little write up that I have.

Mr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. PF Member: Afuma kumunshi.

Mr Kaingu: Kumunshi? Who is from kumunshi?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, you are given a point of order.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Speaker, I thank you. Is the hon. Member, who is so learned, in order to debate the MMD without declaring interest? Is he in order?

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, he is making a contribution and we contribute differently, starting from different points. Therefore, he may continue.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged. I have never denied what I have been. I have neither denied that I was MMD to anybody nor have I denied that we have made mistakes. However, we also have success, but certainly not now and not in the future because they only dream I have is to remove that Government from there because it is creating more problems for the country than solutions.

Sir, on petroleum products, I would like to say there are four taxes on petrol, diesel and kerosene and jet oil. There is exercise duty, fuel levy, import and VAT in fuel.

Sir, when you put these duties together, they almost amount to 80 per cent of the cost of fuel.

This is what is happening in our country. The running of business in this country is extremely expensive because we have touched the product that is supposed to run the engine and the wheel of development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, if we were to remove these duties or reduce them, the results would be much better, but I will say that the Government is unwilling to do that because it is very easy to collect such tax. It is much more difficult to put the informal sector in the tax net. I can see the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson of Committees: Order! I am not worried about those fingers, it is the consultation by people who are seated, that worries me.

Let us listen to the debater on the Floor.

Mr Mwansa: I thank you, Sir, for your protection.

Sir, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will agree that it is much more difficult to capture taxes from the informal sector. Sometimes when we become lazy, the result is that we avoid the difficult tasks and deal with much easier tasks. It is much easier to collect tax from fuel than from the informal sector. Therefore, it has become more fashionable to collect tax from one group of people, the well known people, rather than to find ways and means of collecting it from those who are a little more difficult to tax.

Sir, in this country, I am not far from the fact when I say that the informal sector probably makes more money than the formal sector, but that sector is not captured in the tax regime by this Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, that is only on fuel. We have another problem and this is the problem of electricity in the country. Outages are the talk of the day and yet we are saying that we must compete in the region with the other countries around the region.

Mr Speaker, if we ever are to compete in terms of attracting investment to the country, we must deal with the problem of electricity. We must plan and ensure that we become competitive in terms of the supply of this very essential commodity regarding industrial development.

What have we seen? There have been slight improvements, I must say, towards creating a few more voltages or wattages by the Kariba North and the Itezhi-Tezhi. The question I would like to ask is: when those are completed will they satisfy the market in the country? The answer is no. That Government knows that is not going to satisfy the requirement of electricity in this country. All we are doing is to ameliorate a very dangerous situation.

Sir, I am living in an area, Makeni, where outages in my home are about three times a day, and yet I am on the fixed rate with ZESCO. This company is getting all the money and I am getting nothing of their power. Somehow, it is very nice for the Government because they can come and tell us that it does not matter if you lose wares or if your TV set is burnt and is not insured. It is your problem. Surely, that is not the way we should be talking. The Government must be concerned that its own citizens have problems with their electric wares because they do not supply much electricity to their country.

Sir, I do not give advice without some solutions. The first solution is what South African is doing. You should learn from other countries. What are our friends doing and how are they handling it? South Africa has not done what the MMD Government is doing. South Africa has not denied the problem or moved away from the problem nor has it left this problem in the hands of the so-called private business, private partnerships. No. South Africa has created a Ministerial Committee to look at ways and means of raising the supply of electricity. Have you done that?

Hon. Government Member: Yes.

Mr Mwansa: Where?

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Mwansa: But not only that, Sir. We need to collaborate in the region. We know that there is a huge power station being built in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Have you been there to see whether we can tap into that up coming industry?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No, no, that dialogue between the hon. Member on the Floor and the hon. Minister on my right is not very good. However, to avoid that hon. Member, address the Chair then you will be protected. You can say, have they done A, B, C, D, then, I will protect you.

Mr Mwansa: I am obliged, Mr Speaker.

The hon. Minister is a friend I am sure. He does not mean any harm. I am saying that there is absolute need in the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) region, for the countries to collaborate on this very important matter of power in the region.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: We know for a fact that there is enough potential for power generation in the region to meet the demands of these times. The question is how can we marshal the necessary funding required to put up the kind of power stations required to run the engines of the SADC region. It cannot be done by one country, but it certainly can be done by the region if we put our funds to it. That is why I am saying, this Government of ours in Zambia needs political will to deal with this emergency. I call it an emergency because if we do not watch out, our friends will develop power and industry will lie in the SADC region. Consequently, since SADC is coming under a common market, all the industries will be set up in other countries and we will just be a dumping ground. That is the danger of not planning.

Secondly, Sir, it is common knowledge that the World Energy Conference in Rome highlighted the problem of our Governments, but our Governments are keeping their distance from this problem. I was expecting that we would hear more about the plans put in place to develop our power generation. Without electricity, all the dreams about making this country develop are nothing, but dreams. 2030 will come and we will probably be poorer than we are today. Why do we see the nostalgia of Zambians always looking back to history, thinking of the colonial times like it was much better? When they think of the time of Dr Kaunda, it looks a lot better. When they look at the time in which we live, we are all wondering what is going on? The answer is very simple. We seem to always look behind instead of looking into the future and plan for the future.

Mr Speaker, it is our responsibility to plan for our prosperity. We have a chance to build a much stronger Zambia. A chance to develop Zambia, but we can only do that when we begin to look at the necessary requirements for development. We cannot run away from power and energy. These are essentials.

Mr Speaker, permit me to move on. I would like to talk about the road infrastructure. We do not need foreigners to develop the road infrastructure We only need the will to do what we must do.

Mr Speaker, I remember, as early as ten years ago, that there were huge earth moving machines which were imported from China.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

____

The House adjourned at 1955 hours until 0900 hours on Friday 8th February, 2008