DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 19th February, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENT

ACTING LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President who is attending to other national duties, Hon. G. W. Mpombo, MP, Minister of Defence, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House for today, Tuesday, 19th February, 2008.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ESTABLISHMENT OF POLICE STATIONS
160. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether there were any plans to establish police stations in Nangoma Parliamentary Constituency at the following places:

(a) Nalubanda in Nalubanda Ward;

(b) Nambwa in Nakasaka Ward; and

(c) Mulungushi in Nakasaka Ward.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Speaker, the Inspections Unit will be sent to Nangoma and on the basis of their findings and assessment, a plan to construct police stations or not will be made.

I thank you, Sir.

NUMBER OF FOREIGN NATIONALS OR COMPANIES PROSECUTED FOR TAX EVASION

161. Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) whether there were any foreign nationals or companies that had been prosecuted for evading tax from 2001 to 2007; and

(b) if so, how many had been deported.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that four foreign nationals were prosecuted for evading tax from 2001 to 2007. Two of them were convicted in 2004 and the other two in 2006 respectively.

Sir, with regard to whether or not they were deported, three of the four were non residents so they left the country immediately after serving their sentences, while one of them is still in the country. The Zambia Revenue Authority is awaiting the settlement of taxes due, hence no deportations have been recorded in connection with tax evasion for the period 2001 to 2007.

Mr Speaker, the reason there are only four cases of foreign nationals that had been prosecuted for evading tax on record is that foreign investors are registered as Zambian companies when conducting business locally. As such, companies are recognised as Zambian persons under the law. In this particular case, it is the company that is registered as Zambian that will be convicted for tax evasion and not the foreign national.

In this regard, a total of fifty-one cases were convicted from 2001 to 2007. Out of these, twenty were Zambian Limited Companies, twenty-seven were Zambian individuals and four were foreign non-resident individuals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, besides the taxes from the mines, are we getting a fair share of taxes from foreign investors in this country, since they are so many?

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, the payment of tax is low. All companies that are registered under the Registrar of Companies have to follow the law because the companies are incorporated within the law. Therefore, all the companies that are operating in Zambia have to pay tax.

We have a system in place whereby companies that conduct business in Zambia need to have a Tax Clearance Certificate. For one to get this certificate, the tax records have to be ascertained whether one is tax compliant or not. If one is not tax compliant, they will not be given a Tax Clearance Certificate. This means one cannot undertake certain contracts without this certificate.

I thank you, Sir.

REVENUE LOST BY QUANTUM MINING AND OPERATIONS LIMITED DUE TO THE JULY 2007 STRIKE

162. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how much revenue had been lost by First Quantum Mining and Operations Limited in Solwezi during the strike in July, 2007;

(b) what had caused the strike; and

(c) what measures the Government had taken to avoid work stoppages in the future.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that there was no loss of revenue or finished copper production as a result of the strike in July, 2007 because operations in the processing of copper continued in the normal manner. Copper production was not significantly affected because the company had stock piled enough copper ore to support the production.

The employees who took part in the strike were mainly from the firm which was contracted to mine ore. The affected employees went on strike because there was some misunderstanding regarding the computation of salary areas. The employees were dissatisfied with a proposed adjustment of 12 per cent in basic pay, as they wanted a higher increment. The issue was resolved and the company awarded its employees a salary increment of 21 per cent.

Mr Speaker, the House may wish to note that in order to reduce occurrences of work stoppage incidents, the Government has put in place the following:

(a) sensitising employees and management on the procedures that are required to be followed in resolving disputes that may arise in the industry. These procedures are clearly defined under Part IX of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act Cap. 269 of the Laws of Zambia;

(b) the Government has intensified labour inspections as another avenue through which management and employees are monitored and advised to comply with the law. Labour inspectors reinforce their law enforcement mandate with educational awareness on matters that would help reduce work stoppages;

(c) the Government is considering increasing the levels of penalties in the current Industrial and Labour Relations Act against defaulters (employers who breach labour laws) in order to compel employers to comply with the requirements of the labour laws; and

(d) the Government is promoting dialogue between unions and employers so that the two sides can resolve disputes amicably.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, there was a misinterpretation of the Collective Agreement. As a result, employees were underpaid and that is why they went on strike. Since this problem originated from management, what has the Government done about it?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, there is nothing that we can do to the employers because this issue was resolved amicably. Additionally, we are promoting dialogue between employees and unions on one hand and the employers on the other so that they do not just meet when there is a dispute, but must remain engaged and resolve disputes as they arise.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-Tezhi): Mr Speaker, it has been proven that most of the disputes in industries such as the mines are a result of the duplication of unions. What is the Government doing to make sure that there is no duplication of unions in the mines, including ZESCO in the energy sector?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, there is no problem with the duplication of unions. In the mining industry, there are two unions, the Mine Workers Union of Zambia and the National Allied and Mine Workers Union led by Mr Mundia Sikufele. We are working very well with them and when it comes to collective bargaining, they have a joint team that engages mining companies to negotiate on behalf of the two unions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister, there was no revenue loss resulting from the strike. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the labour component is irrelevant to raising revenue in the mining industry.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I did not get the question clearly, but it was about the loss of revenue by First Quantum Mining and Operations Limited. There was no loss occasioning from the work stoppage because they had stock piled ore that they continued to process during the short period of the strike.

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Ways and Means

MOTION

WAYS AND MEANS

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now resolve into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the raising of supply.

Sir, I am a bearer of three messages from His Excellency the President recommending that this Motion, which I now lay on the Table, be proceeded with in this House.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, as a result of the Budget which I presented to this august House on 25th January, 2008, it is necessary to introduce certain financial measures that I will outline in the committee.

Sir, I beg to move.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I am grateful to my colleagues for accepting that we proceed with this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

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COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

INCOME TAX

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Income Tax Act so as to:

(a) increase the threshold of exempt income for individuals from K6 million to K7,200,000 per annum;

(b) increase the allowable deduction for any person who employs a person with a disability from K500,000 per annum to K1 million per annum for each such person employed;

(c) provide for deduction of mortgage interest to any Zambian individual who obtains a loan secured by a mortgage on residential property;

(d) reduce the withholding tax rate applicable on interest earned by an individual on a savings account, deposit account or building society account from twenty-five per centum per annum to fifteen per centum per annum;

(e) increase the tax credit applicable to persons with disabilities from K144,000 per annum to K600,000 per annum;

(f) increase the allowable expenditure for low cost housing from K2 million two million kwacha to K20 million;

(g) increase the allowable amount for expenditure in the provision of a gift to any person consisting of an article incorporating a conspicuous advertisement from K25,000 to K100,000;

(h) increase the amount of tax that is not payable in a charge year from K20,000 to K100,000 per charge year;

(i) introduce a variable profit tax for the mining sector;

(j) introduce a graduated windfall tax for the mining of base metals and precious metals;

(k) introduce a reference price for determining the values for windfall tax;

(l) reduce mining capital expenditure deductions from one hundred per centum to twenty-five per centum per annum for the mining sector;

(m) increase the allowable expenditure for farm dwelling from K10 million to K20 million; and

(n) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Income Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 25th January, 2008.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I would like to support the Motion by the hon. Minister that it is expedient for him to come with a bill to give effect to these proposals. In so doing, I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister a number of issues that he may wish to reflect upon.

Firstly, I would like to comment on part (f), where the hon. Minister is proposing an increase in allowable expenditure for low cost housing from K2 million to K20 million. I know that it is very difficult for the tax collector to ascertain that, indeed, an amount of money has gone into low housing.

In relation to that, I wish to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister his proposal, on part (m), to increase the allowable expenditure for farm dwelling from K10 million to K20 million. I would like to propose to the hon. Minister that he has to put in place measures that provide the minimum standard of housing that qualifies for allowable expenditure on such costs.

In addition, I would like to propose to the hon. Minister that, with respect to part (m), to kindly amend this so that the K20 million is not the total per farm, but per unit because as the proposal reads, it gives the impression that a farm will only be allowed K20 million irrespective of the number of units.

Further, I wonder whether the hon. Minister would not consider having a period of, for example, three years in which he provides this incentive of providing standard housing to our farm workers in the same way that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) New Deal Government did with regard to the promotion of public transport in this country. If he did that for a period of three years and increased the allowable amount, I would imagine that a lot of farm workers would have better housing. That way, we will be promoting investment in housing.

Madam Chairperson, at no. 2 (c), I am very concerned that the hon. Minister …

The Chairperson: Order! Which 2 (c)?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the Motion is numbered 1, which goes from (a) to (m) …

The Chairperson: We are taking them one at a time.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry for that. I would also like the hon. Minister to make it succinct at 1 (c) which relates to the provision for deduction of mortgage interest to any Zambian individual who obtains a loan secured by a mortgage on residential property. This has to be succinct to indicate that he is not only talking about an owner occupier house, but that a person who has the ability to build or own mortgage of two, three or four houses shall also benefit from that incentive. I am sure that the aim of the hon. Minister here is not only to promote ownership of properties in which people live, but also increase the housing stock in Zambia.

I hope that the hon. Minister can kindly take into consideration my proposals so that we do not have the problem of amending the bill when he presents it.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank Hon. Lubinda for being so enthusiastic by starting to debate the issue now. Obviously, I do appreciate some of the comments he has made, but others are just a repetition of what we have been doing. We will look at the current legislation and if there is a need for amendments, we will bring them at the appropriate time.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to:

(a) empower the Commissioner General to make advance tariff rulings in respect of the imported goods or goods to be exported;

(b) introduce an export levy on cotton seed and copper concentrates;

(c) revise the rates of Customs and Excise duty payable on certain goods; and

(d) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Madam, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Customs and Excise Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 25th January, 2008.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam, I perfectly understand the need for an export levy on copper concentrates, but I am a little bit baffled by the levy on cotton seed. It is seems to have just been thrown. Presumably any cotton company in Zambia would keep back enough seed for planting in the coming year anyway. So it does not seem to save the purposes of retaining seed in the Zambia. Or is its function to ensure that the cotton seed is processed and turned into oil before it is exported? Perhaps he can just clarify that for us or think about it a little more deeply.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Chairperson, I would like some clarification as well on item (b). I think it is a known fact, and it has been debated in this House that as a nation, we are losing value due to export of copper ores. What I would like to propose, and it has been proposed before is that we should introduce a levy as well on export of copper ore. So I would like the hon. Minister to clarify whether the copper concentrates include copper ore. If not, it should read copper concentrates and copper ores.

The Chairperson: Maybe I should give a little guidance to the hon. Member. What is stated here is not the Bill. When we come to the Bills and when you read through the Bills after they are presented to the House, you will then go into details. For now, these are just principles that have been stated and we stick to what is here. You have the Bills in your folders and you will look at them and then debate the details later.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, the issues raised by both Hon. Scott and Hon. Simuusa seem to also be begging the politicians, as farmers keep using the terms seed cotton and cotton seed interchangeably. The mining engineer, obviously, is also right. We have taken care of this and at an appropriate time, we will bring amendments to cover exactly what the two hon. Members have brought out.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move that it is expedient to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to:

(a) provide for the definitions of “an operating lease” and a “finance lease”;

(b) provide for the eligibility of diplomats and other designated officials to claim value added tax paid on eligible goods;

(c) empower the Minister to remit tax due that is not recoverable;

(d) provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing and that a Bill to give effect to this be introduced accordingly.

Madam Chairperson, the purpose of this Motion is to enable me introduce legislation to amend the Value Added Tax Act so as to introduce changes that I announced in my Budget Speech on 25th January, 2008.

Madam, I am grateful for the concurrence of this House to the proposed Motion.

Madam I beg to move.

Question put and agreed to.
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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Resolutions reported.

Reports adopted.

Question put and agreed to and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bills to give effect to the resolutions of the Committee of Ways and Means.

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BILLS

FIRST READING

THE INCOME TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The committee is required to submit the report on the Bill to the House by Tuesday, 4th March, 2008.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

Thank you.

THE CUSTOMS AND EXCISE (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008

Mr Magande: Sir, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill, 2008.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The committee is required to submit the report on the Bill to the House by Tuesday, 4th March, 2008.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

Thank you.

THE VALUE ADDED TAX (AMENDMENT) BILL, 2008

Mr Magande: Sir, I beg to present a Bill entitled the Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Bill stands referred to the Committee on Estimates. The committee is required to submit the report on the Bill to the House by Tuesday, 4th March, 2008.

Hon. Members who wish to make submissions or amendments to the Bill are free to do so within the programme of work of the committee.

Thank you.
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COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 09/01 (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – Headquarters K2,191,889,209).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. When business was suspended last Friday, I mentioned the fact that the Teaching Service Commission had an immense job to look after the affairs of about 67 per cent of the work force in this country. This 67 per cent includes the teachers in the Ministry of Education as well as in the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training. Therefore, we can see that this Commission has a heavy responsibility. In this vein, it is important that this Commission becomes more mobile.

I also mentioned that the lack of transport had actually hampered the activities of the Teaching Service Commission. In fact, there is only one 4 x 4 Prado vehicle at the Commission. The Prado is actually supposed to be for the Chairman alone. This means that the rest of the six members of the Commission actually walk or have to commute on public transport. I think this is not very good.

Mr Chairperson, according to last year’s report for the Teaching Service Commission, when they toured the Luapula, Western and Lusaka provinces, they were able to spot the problems and solve them immediately.

For example, here in Lusaka, there was a problem of alleged illegal payment of housing allowances to teachers at Lotus Basic School. The commissioners were able to go to the school and verify these allegations. Indeed, they discovered that, actually, what was termed as illegal was not illegal. Therefore, you can see that mobility is very important.

Sir, when they went to the Western Province, you will remember also that, at one point, eighty-six teachers in Senanga District were suspended because it was alleged that they had gone on an illegal strike while they were claiming for rural hardship allowance. When the Teaching Service Commission looked at the various regulations that govern the payment of rural hardship allowance, they discovered that, in fact, teachers in Senanga District, like any other rural district, were entitled to rural hardship allowance. Therefore, you can see that mobility is very important. It is just right that the Teaching Service Commission is given enough funding to enable them purchase vehicles to make them as mobile as we want them to be.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to refer to the Page 7 of last year’s report for the Teaching Service Commission. This report states what the teachers in rural areas cherish when they are visited by the Teaching Service Commission. It says:

“Another activity undertaken during the tours involved random and unscheduled visits to some schools. This was a case during the Western Province tour where the Commission visited four schools in Shang’ombo District. The visits yielded some good results as the teachers, although taken by surprise, were delighted to see the Commission visit their particular schools. They had an opportunity to ask questions about their respective individual circumstances, and about the work of the Commission.”

Sir, the key word here is “excitement”. They were excited. Therefore, we would like to see this extended, as much as possible, throughout the country.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to mention that as much as they are able to visit locally, it is important that they are given an opportunity to visit other neighbouring countries so that they are able to learn from other commissions. When they go to Zimbabwe and Malawi, they will be able to borrow ideas on how to run commissions better and be able to sell them to their colleagues. Therefore, it is important that they be given a provision for this. Let them talk amongst themselves when they are trying to come up with better services so that there are some tripartite meetings between the Teaching Service Commission, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training as well as the unions that represent teachers. I think this is important because then, they will be able to air their views as much as possible.

Another thing that I discovered as I was going through the report was that two female and five male commissioners have to live in Lusaka and they have to rent houses. You will learn, with sadness, that these people only received K500,000 as housing allowance. You can never rent a house at K500,000 in Lusaka. Therefore, it is important that we take cognisant of the fact that this is an important responsibility that they are carrying out and must be supported adequately.

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, would like to support this Vote, but at the same time, request that the budget line be increased so as to mitigate the various problems that I have raised so that our commissioners are as functional as they should be.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for according me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. While I support the Vote on the Teaching Service Commission, I would like to bring to your attention the fact that this is the largest employer in the country. They are looking after so many teachers and teachers are very valuable to the growth of this nation. They have a lot of challenges because their workforce is scattered all over the country. Even in a place where you do not expect to find any sort of development, at least, you will find a school and teachers who the commissioners are supposed to look after.

Sir, when I look at the budgets for last year and this year, I noticed that there is not much change. What sort of development are we talking about because development is about change? If we talk this year; we talk next year; and we talk the other year and nothing is changing then, we are not developing. We saw a situation where teachers are being confirmed posthumously. Definitely, as a country, we must be ashamed because these teachers work for us although we do not confirm them. Sometimes they work for ten years without being confirmed. These are some of the challenges that the Teaching Service Commission is coming across.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mabenga has just mentioned that they do not have transport. If these officers do not have transport while directors in the Ministry of Education are driving, what are we doing about it, as a nation? What respect do we give these people? What respect will these directors give their employers who are begging transport from them?

Sir, I discussed this even last time, but it seems we are not getting anywhere. It seems our coming here is just an academic exercise. Every year, we talk, but nothing changes. What development are we talking about? If we are talking about development and change, we must have the benchmarks. What are we using to measure our development? What benchmarks do we have when we just talk? These people will continue having no transport and be poorly funded year after year. I do not think that is how we are supposed to move.

The allocation for training is K28.5 million. Surely, what training are we talking about with K28.5 million? The other day, we were talking in here that we too do not even know the difference between a civil servant and a politician. We also need training. Teachers do not even know their conditions of service. The commissioners are supposed to be going round telling teachers what is expected of them, what they are supposed to do and what not to do.

Mr Chairperson, I met a woman who worked for thirty years without being confirmed. In the end, she was told she was not going to be paid because she had not been confirmed. Surely, if this teacher knew what she was supposed to have done, she would have fought hard to make sure that she was confirmed. The teachers who come from Teacher Training Colleges need to know their conditions of service before they graduate.

I am sure if the Teaching Service Commission was properly funded, the commissioners would find time to go round the colleges to educate the young teachers about their conditions of service. Even when the teachers get to the classrooms, nobody bothers to do that. They find out on their own as they go along. I think that is not the way we should be working.

Mr Chairperson, the last time I debated, I talked about training in the Civil Service. Honestly, there is a need for us to harmonise training in the ministries. I wish we could have a Ministry of Training where all the money for training could go because if we harmonise training, we are going to move further. We are going to have more people being trained. Each ministry would be catered for, because there would be a vote for training. At the moment training is done piecemeal. I think, in future, we should be thinking of using our resources together so that the training can have an impact.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the conditions of service for teachers and graduates from the Teachers’ Training Colleges. According to the conditions of service, they are supposed to work for a particular period before they are confirmed, but because of the bureaucracy, you will find that the file will come from the school, pass through the District Education Office (DEO), the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS), Provincial office and finally, the Ministry Headquarters. By the time it gets to the Teaching Service Commission, the person would have even forgotten about it. The same thing happens with disciplinary cases. The file will come from the headteacher at the school, pass through the DEBS, provincial office and the Ministry Headquarters. When it gets to the Teaching Service Commission, it will be acted on and will start the same journey back again. By the time it gets back to the school, may be the person would have repented, changed to a better person, resigned or retired.

Mr Chairperson, the point that Hon. Mabenga raised is very important. The commissioners should tour the provinces and make sure that they look at the files, confirm, retire and do whatever is necessary so that less time is spent on doing these things. I am even beginning to wonder what the Decentralisation Policy is doing for us.

Sir, what I am very sad about is that we let people die without being confirmed when they would have served for forty years or so. Meanwhile, we keep shifting blame. When you go to Ministry Headquarters, they will put the blame on the Teaching Service Commission. When you go to Teaching Service Commission, they will show you their clean tables and say they do not hold any files there. The job is at the Ministry of Education Headquarters and the Provincial Headquarters. Therefore, the Ministry of Education should help in whatever way they can. I am urging the Appointing Authority to give the commissioners the respect that they deserve. At least, they should be given some means of transport.

Sir, when I was in the Ministry, I used to see them coming to beg for transport from Directors who are supposed to be their subordinates.  They used to come to ask for fuel. Where are we heading to if these people are appointed by the highest authority? Let us give them the respect that they deserve. Let us make sure that our teachers get promoted on time. In this computer era, why should I remind the Teaching Service Commission that I am now retiring? They will tell you that if you go past the years you are supposed to retire, you starting drawing your terminal benefits as a salary. Why should I remind them? They are the ones who employed me and they should know when I am supposed to retire.

Mr Chairperson, we should see to it that the Teaching Service Commission does what is right. Let us have our teachers appointed and promoted at the right time.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the Motion on the Floor. Suffice to state that I will be very brief. This Government of the MMD has failed the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr V. Mwale: Vilivonse ni failing!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, they must be held responsible for the shortcomings of the Teaching Service fraternity. Last year, I debated this issue and stated that the confirmation of teachers was taking too long. One year along the line, we are still talking about the non confirmation of teachers on time. The Government is supposed to be the custodian of the law and lead by example. What have we got? They are the people that are first to abrogate the laws. Now, if the Government cannot observe the laws that we make in this House, how about the Chinese or other people out there?

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Sir, the confirming of teachers is taking too long. You know that the Labour and Industrial Relations Act provide that if anybody acts for six months, he or she must be confirmed.

Mr Chairperson, one teacher in my constituency approached me and told me that he had been accepted at the University of Zambia and when he went to ask for sponsorship from the Government, he was told he had not been confirmed when this young man had served for three years.

Mr Imasiku: Only!

Mr Kambwili: Surely, there must be something wrong with the system. Why should a teacher work for three years without being confirmed? We have been talking about the issue of transport for the Teaching Service Commission. These are retired men and women who are supposed to be resting peacefully, but you fish them out of retirement to help you run your Government and you fail to remunerate them properly. What kind of people are you?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: You must be ashamed of yourselves. I have always reminded you that those flags that you move with are not a decoration. They are for a purpose. You must work. That is why you are given a flag. Hon. Mulongoti, do not think that flag is fashion.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili, address the Chair because you are inviting them to respond when debating the individual items.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, it is extremely disheartening and painful …

Dr Machungwa rose on a point of order.

The Chairperson: Order! I have not granted you the point of order! Can you continue, Hon. Kambwili.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that these gallant men and women …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, how can the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, debating so well and referring to Hon. Mulongoti who is my cousin and Professor Fashion Phiri by saying Hon. Mulongoti thinks it is fashionable to move with a flag.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Sir, is he really in order to bring Professor Fashion Phiri into his debate when he is not in this House?

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! We must move quickly. We have a lot of work on the Order Paper. That point of order really is not related to what Hon. Kambwili meant. The fashion he mentioned is not the fashion you have in mind.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Can Hon. Kambwili continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your protection. I was lamenting the fact that these gallant men and women had retired and they are supposed to be enjoying their retirement, but this Government fished them from retirement to come and throw them in the jungles of poverty.

Surely, we all know that rentals in Lusaka start from K1.5 million going upwards and you decide to pay them K500,000.  Do you want them to live in servants’ quarters? Can you live in servants quarters yourselves?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, it is a sad state of affairs. Let us be responsible. When we ask people to help us run Government, let us give them the tools and logistics that go with such offices.

Mr Chairperson, under the Teaching Service Commission, disciplinary cases are taking too long to settle. Under normal circumstances, I would have said they have failed but it would not be fair for me to put the blame on the Commission. The blame is on the people on your right side.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairman, every time the hon. Minister of Education stands up to speak, he creates an impression that it is all rosy in his Ministry. However, the situation is that disciplinary cases take three to four years to settle. I would like to suggest to the hon. Minister that disciplinary cases be meted out by personnel officers in respective districts …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: …so that they simply report to the Teaching Service Commission. Sir, justice delayed is justice denied. It does not make sense that someone commits an offence in 2000 and is reprimanded six years later. That is why there is a lot of indiscipline among teachers in terms of obedience to supervising officers, who are school managers. Some of the teachers do not even respect school managers because they know that when they commit an offence, it would take three years before being reprimanded.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Please, can we do something about this. If we have failed, let us abolish the Teaching Service Commission and let the hon. Ministers who are failing to add more money to this department carry out the responsibility of the Teaching Service Commission. If you cannot pay them enough money, let them people go and rest.

Some of these people bought beautiful houses under Dr Chiluba’s Government. They leave their houses in their respective cities and come to Lusaka to rent servants’ quarters at K500,000. It is a shame. Let us pay people according to what they put in. We have been told by previous speakers that these people cover almost 70 per cent of the Civil Service. They deserve respect, need to well remunerated, given logistics and tools to work with. 

Mr Chairperson, the K 2,191,889,209 that has have allocated to the Teaching Service Commission this year is not enough. I wish the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning could bring an amendment so that we can give the Commission more money for the procurement of vehicles that it needs and rent decent houses, not servants’ quarters, for the officers.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Chairman, the Teaching Service Commission is an important organ in the teaching profession. The Commission was established in order to enhance high quality performance in the teaching profession through appointments based on merit, timely and meritorious confirmations and promotions, fair, but, firm disciplinary process and timely retirements.

Sir, a full compliment of staff at the Teaching Service Commission was made in June, 2007, with the appointment of new commissioners. Between July and December, last year, the Commission was pre-occupied with processing cases of appointments, confirmations, promotions, discipline, re-engagements and retirement in Lusaka.

In addition, the Commission toured Luapula and Western provinces. In Luapula Province, the Commission was able to process cases referred to it by the provincial office in Northern Province, and it handled 3,092 cases in various categories of the profession, while in the Western province, the Commission dealt with 1,422 cases.

Mr Chairman, the Teaching Service Commission handled 1,002 cases of retirements, 895 cases of promotions, 244 cases of staff discipline, 819 cases of acting appointments, and 566 cases of re-engagement. In total, the Commission handled 4,087 cases in Lusaka, last year. These are remarkable achievements by the Teaching Service Commission within a period of six months.

This clearly indicates that the Ministry of Education is facilitating the work of the Teaching Service Commission by expeditiously passing over the cases that have been dealt with at the lower levels to the Commission, which is the authority over matters affecting the professional standing of the teachers.

It should be noted that the Commission handles the largest labour force within the Civil Service. The teaching service comprises 60 per cent of the public service work force. In addition, the teachers are spread out all over the country, making the work of the Commission truly challenging. The current large scale exercise of recruiting teachers, which my Ministry has embarked on, will continue to exert great pressure on the work of the Commission. Nevertheless, from the statistics which I have just given, the Commission is rising up to the challenge of upholding its work in order to ensure that the teaching profession leaves up to its expectations.

The efforts being made by the Commission under some difficult circumstances require the support of this House. As we debate the important work of the Teaching Service Commission, we should do so with the highest level of professional integrity.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Chairman, I want to thank all the hon. Members who have debated. I would like to salute reputed educationalists like Hon. Sinyangwe and Hon. Mabenga, who have articulated the issues very well. I would like to add that the issues that have been raised to project an image that the Government is not doing anything at all are ferocious.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: We are on track and recognise the serious impediments that could compromise the education standard. We are putting in place deliberate measures to arrest those situations. I would like to assure all the hon. Members who have debated that the Government has not gone to sleep, but very alert to the problems affecting our education system and we will do everything possible to ensure that we take control of the situation. I do not want to spoil what has been ably presented by the hon. Minister of Education and all the colleagues that have spoken.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10/01 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Headquarters K2,239,120,479).

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this Year’s Estimates of Expenditure for the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

 Hon. Members of the House may wish to be reminded that the Police and Prisons Service Commission is established under Section 7 (c) of the Service Commission’s Act No. 24 of 1991.

 Mr Chairperson, the mission statement of the Police and Prisons Service Commission is as follows:

‘To provide high quality service by upholding integrity of the service through the application of powers vested into it by His Excellency the President without fear or favour and to cultivate rapport and partnership with the Police and Prisons Services in Zambia’.

Mr Chairperson, some of the functions of the Police and Prisons Service Commission are as follows:

(a) to carry out any functions directed to it by his Excellency the President;

(b) to appoint persons to hold or act in office of the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(c) to admit officers to permanent and pensionable establishment in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(d) to promote officers to higher ranks in the Police and Prisons Service;

(e) to establish disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in such offices and to remove any such persons from exercising the functions of their offices in the  Police and Prisons Service;

(f) to review appeals submitted by officers against punishments imposed on them departmentally or by the responsible officer as provided for under the Police and Prisons Service commission Regulation No. 42;

(g) to decide on the retirement and normalise resignations of officers in the Zambia Police and Prisons Services;

(h) to consider the granting and distribution of pension benefits accruing to the deceased estate;

(i) to direct on the compensation of the officers who die or get injured in accidents arising out of and in the course of duty; and

(j) to consider transfer of officers arising from the exigencies of the Service.

Madam Chairperson, during the 2007, the Commission received K2,481,874,966 and managed to visit three provinces, namely Central, North-Western and Western provinces, all the districts in these provinces and police posts wherever they are even  in the remotest areas.  The Commission acquired three 4 X 4 vehicles from the Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs) that are required for tours as provincial and district offices need these types of vehicles since most roads are in a bad state.

 Mr Chairperson, during the visits, the Commission did not just process confirmations in appointments, retirements, disciplinary cases and re-instatements, but were also concerned about the environment and conditions under which the Police and Prisons officers were serving. Whilst at base, the Police and Prisons Service Commission continued to process cases in respect of the two sister institutions, namely Zambia Police and Prisons Services.

Mr Chairperson, inadequate funding has been the major constraint in running the Commission. The Commission was supposed to tour four provinces, but only managed three. This year’s budget is K2,239,120,479, and is less than what was approved in last year’s budget. Therefore, the work of the Commission will be greatly hampered. One of the Commission’s core functions is to tour provinces and districts, but with the meagre funds allocated to the Commission, not much will be done.

Mr Chairperson, the Commission is calling upon all hon. Members of Parliament to favourably consider estimates for this years’ Budget.

 Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Kanyanyamina (Kanchibiya): Mr Chairperson, this commission is more or less like the Teaching Service Commission, but the situation is worse with the Police and Prisons Service Commission because teachers have unions while the Police and Prisons Service Commission has none.

 In this regard, we need to motivate them more by giving them more resources. We should empower them so that they could even help hon. Ministers look into the plight of policemen, prison officers and any related officers. If we empowered these officers by giving them more resources, we would be doing them a lot of justice. Once we do this, justice will prevail, starting from the prisons where inmates are kept. The Commission looks after officers who, in turn, look after inmates who are hoping to be counseled.

When an officer goes for work when there is no mealie-meal at home and he or she cannot afford schools fees for his or her children, he or she will not be motivated to carry out his or her work effectively. Conditions of service for police officers are pathetic. We need to be serious. Police officers look like boy scouts, girl guides or even street kids.

Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, we need to be sympathetic towards them.

The hon. Minister of Home Affairs can try to do his best, but there is a very big gap between him and the commission that is supposed to help him do his work because they do not have a union. This is an oppressive system. Why do you not empower them by giving them more resources so that they can get to see how police officers live in the camps? I would not want to hurt by brothers and sisters by saying that they live in slams, but they live in similar conditions. We feel for police officers because they deserve to be respected.

In neighbouring countries such as Botswana, police officers are well looked after. They can afford to drive decent cars and send their children to good schools just like hon. Ministers. A police officer is able to go on a holiday …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kanyanyamina still on his feet.

The Chairperson: Order means that ‘You sit down’.

 Laughter

The Chairperson: The Chair appreciates the points you are raising you are doing except that there is an item under which you can discuss them. For now, you should concentrate on the Police and Prisons Service Commission. Therefore, do not go to Head 11.

 May you, please, continue.

 Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the Police and Prisons Commission. I am talking about people who are supposed to provide hope by taking care of the convicted; people who have been found wanting though most of them are innocent, but they just found themselves in such circumstances. These are victims of the situation. Prisons officers have to take care of these people, but their conditions of service and the places they live in are quite pathetic. We are talking of commissioners who do not even have transport. They live in poverty and are expected to rent a house at about K500, 000. What type of a house can they rent at K500, 000?

Sir, they can only rent a house at this much in places such as Marapodi or other compounds. I am not saying that people who live in Marapodi are not human, no. When one is appointed commissioner, he or she becomes a senior citizen of this country, hence they deserve very high respect. Therefore, for them to work hard, they need to be well remunerated for the kind of job they are doing. We are calling for equal pay for equal work. You cannot pay peanuts to such important dignitaries of this country and fail to respect your own bosses as MMD Government, and yet you are the masters today. You are the ones holding the economy of this country and you are the controlling masters. Some of us are just backbenchers trying to give you free advice.

Let me tell you that one day, we will take over the country as well.

 Laughter

Mr Kanyanyamina: Mr Chairperson, I am saying that this Government must be compassionate to the commissioners who also deserve respect. They have families to look after, children to educate and due to the HIV/AIDS scourge, they have so many dependants to look after. Therefore, the little money they earn goes to so many beneficiaries. Kindly take care of these important commissioners of this country because they need to be well looked after.

Sir, given the time, I would talk on and on, but I do not want to do the Government’s job and waste time. I know that this is a listening Government and if it is listening, then next year, it will improve the conditions of service for the commissioners by providing them transport, giving them proper accommodation, respect and the remuneration they deserve. They also want to live as human beings.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the debate on the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Sir, I wonder what the real job of the Police and Prisons Service Commission is. The Police and Prisons Service Commission is supposed to look at the conditions of service for the Police and Prisons Service. If the conditions of service are not alright, one wonders what the commission does.

At some time we were told in this House that the Police and Prisons Service Commission also looked at the promotions, but the Inspector General has taken over all the powers.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: He is able to promote and demote at will.

Sir, there is an extra body called the Police Public Complaints Authority that has been created which is an added problem. If police officers have done something wrong, one can write to this authority for investigation. Thereafter, this authority hands over the complaint to the Police and Prisons Service Commission. Meanwhile, the Inspector-General of Police would have taken action on the erring officers because the system we have created is tedious. Who takes action whenever a police officer makes an offence? When the Minister of Home Affairs is asked this question he just says that action will be taken. I challenge him by informing him that there are several cases in Kalabo where people do not know what to do with the erring officers. The Police and Prisons Service Commission may look at the cases, but I am told that they have to write to the Police Public Complaints Authority. What are we creating?

Mr Chairperson, police officers are poorly paid. They want to work for this nation, but their situation is not being looked into properly. Maybe the Police and Prisons Service Commission only looks at the conditions of service for senior officers. I am saying so because the only people I have seen with two extra vehicles are the senior officers. They have one vehicle at the house, one on standby and another one that takes children to school. Was the Police and Prison Service Commission only created for the senior officers? No wonder the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has a problem because he does not know which one to fund properly among the Police and Prison Service Commission, the Police Complaints Authority, the Inspector General of Police or the Minister of Home Affairs? Who is responsible for the Police and Prisons Service Commission?

Sir, I find it difficult to debate this Vote and ask for an increase in allocation because we were told that the conditions of service for the Police have been improved.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Muntanga: Not long ago I debated the risk allowance for the police officers which is at K1,500. I want to state that the commission …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I can see the difficulties you are have in trying to debate the Commission. Instead, you are discussing the people who work at the Commission. Can you continue debating the Commission?

Mr Muntanga: We expect the commissioners to do their job. Otherwise, we shall have problems passing their budget. We need to have a reason to create a body that does a proper job. However, we know that this is where you send retired police officers to oversee their friends’ welfare. The Commission must look at the welfare of their retired friends. Like the Teaching Service Commission, we have employed retired people whose usefulness in employment is finished. That is a problem. We need a vibrant commission that works and impresses the Minister of Home Affairs. We must have commissioners who are free to see the Inspector-General of Police at his office and not behave as though they work for the police. They behave as though the Inspector-General of Police is in charge of the …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order.

Mr Kambwili: Sit down!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: He is an ex-policeman, do not worry!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling. Is Hon. Muntanga who is debating so well in order to insinuate that the commissioners in the Police and Prisons Service Commission are tired and finished? Is he in order?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can Mr Muntanga take into account that point of order?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, commissioners are friends of mine and my brother there looks like one of them.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: So, there is no problem with that. I understand as long as he depicts some strength. I agree that the hon. Minister for Western Province …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! I told you to take into account his point of order on retired commissioners, but do not debate him.

Mr Muntanga: I am trying to say that they do not look very tired when I see their friend in this House.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I understand that others are not too tired to do the job properly and show us that they are serious commissioners who can improve the conditions of service for the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Sir, looking at the same budgetary allocation of K2, 239,120,479 which has not changed much, clearly indicates that there is a financial problem. I noticed that the number of vehicles to the commission has been increased. However, I wonder if they are given vehicles. What I have observed is that they have always been given second hand vehicles by the Ministry of Home Affairs. After having seen that the Deputy Minister has four vehicles at his house, they surrender one to the Commission. If they need to be bought good vehicles, we should have increased the allocation by a reasonable 20 per cent in other areas and done the same to the commissioners so that they are able to cover the country in totality.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, thank you once more for giving me an opportunity to speak about the Police and Prisons Service Commission. I will be brief, again.

Sir, I have two issues that I would like to debate.

Firstly, it is the indiscipline amongst the police officers. Policemen and women get drunk while on tour of duty. For example, each time we travel from the Copperbelt to Lusaka, we find a lot of drunken police officers manning road blocks. What is happening? You are the people who are supposed to discipline these officers. There is too much indiscipline. We want to see disciplined police officers manning road blocks. That is why there has been a lot of shooting incidents that cannot be explained because behaviour of these men and women is not being monitored while they are on duty. This is a very serious issue.

Therefore, I am appealing to the Government, since they have failed to remunerate the police well, to allow police officers to belong to a union.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Allow the police officers to form unions so that they can fight for their own conditions of service.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Before the Acting Leader of Government Business in House takes the Floor, let me say that these terms sometimes sound the same, but have different meanings, remunerate is not the same as enumerate. Therefore, remuneration means payment.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, I want to begin with the contribution by Hon. Kambwili, although I feel that he has an obsession of bringing an element of political kerfuffle …

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: … in his contributions. I want to say that it is not right to paint every police officer with the same brush. We will be going too far by including the entire Police Force. If there are bad eggs, the police will root them out, but generally, we must thank them for doing a good job under difficult conditions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: I thank very much Hon. Kalenga and Hon. Muntanga for their concerns. I would like to agree that the Police and Prisons Service Commission is a vital tool in developing a proper Police Force. At the moment, the problem is that the resource envelope is so limited that all other important functions have to compete for this small amount of money.  However, we have taken note of their concerns and will pay attention to them.

In conclusion, on the issue of the Police Public Complaints Authority, I want to say that the Government will soon be bringing a Bill to the House through the Ministry of Justice to ensure that, instead of, maybe, the Police Public Complaints Authority directing the Police they will be making recommendations.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 10/01 ─ (Police and Prisons Service Commission – Headquarters –K2,239,120,479).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 02 - Gender Awareness - K12,525,000. What is involved in this gender awareness because the amount is so little? Not much can be done with K12,525,000.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, the provision is meant to create gender awareness for members of staff. The increase in the allocation is due to increased activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K367,994,880, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K148,908,840 and Activity 03 – Salaries Division III – K28,468,708. Why is there a small increase? I would like to find out from the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House whether the number of employees has gone down.

Secondly, on Programme 07, Activity 01 – Processing of Cases from Ministry of Home Affairs - K14,682,000, last year we had K74,517,500 and now it has been reduced to K14,682,000. I do not know whether the number of cases this year will reduce or not.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K367,994,880, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K148,908,840 and Activity 03 – Salaries Division III – K28,468,7078, the provision is required to cater for salaries for officers in Division III. The increase in the provision is due to anticipated increments of salaries. On Programme 07, Activity 01 – Processing of Cases from Ministry of Home Affairs - K14,682,000, the provision is meant to cater for subsistence allowance and upset allowances for officers. The decrease is due to budgetary constraints.

I thank you, Sir.

Business was suspended from 1610 hours until 1630 hours.

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – K398,826,458,389 and VOTE 15 - (Ministry of Home Affairs – K182,111,775,731)

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for affording me this opportunity to present to this august House a policy statement for the Ministry of Home Affairs in respect to the supply on Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for 2008.

Mr Chairperson, the maintenance of the internal security is a prerequisite for the continuity of a stable Government, investment, development and enjoyment of human rights. A continuity of stability depends, to a large extent, on the effectiveness of internal security institutions that exist in the country. In order to carry out this task effectively, my Ministry operates under the following portfolio functions as contained in the Government Gazette Notice No. 46 of 24th January, 1992:

(a) arms and ammunition;
(b) Zambia citizenship;
(c) Deportation;
(d) drug enforcement;
(e) extradition of fugitive offenders; 
(f) forensic medical services;
(g) immigration;
(h) passports and national registration;
(i) law and order;
(j) missing persons;
(k) national archives;
(l) protected places and areas;
(m) refugees; 
(n) registration of births, marriages and deaths;
(o)  road traffic( enforcement of laws relating to road traffic);
(p) Zambia Police; preservation of public security;
(q) civil defence;
(r) registration of societies;
(s) suicide; and 
(t) prisons.

Mr Chairperson, to implement the above functions, the guiding mission statement for the Ministry is:

“To effectively and efficiently provide and maintain an accountable and transparent internal security system in order to create an environment in which peace, stability and justice prevail for sustainable socio-economic development for the people of Zambia.”

The Ministry’s vision is:

“A safer and more secure Zambia by 2030”. This is in line with the nation’s vision for 2030.

Mr Chairperson, my Ministry’s operations are carried out by the following specialised agencies that form the Ministry of Home Affairs:

(a) Zambia Police Service;
(b) Drug Enforcement Commission;
(c) Zambia Prisons Service;
(d) Department of Immigration; 
(e) Department of National Registration; 
(f) Passport and Citizenship; 
(g) National Archives of Zambia; 
(h) Office of the Registrar of Societies; 
(i) Police Public Complaints Authority; and 
(j) Home Affairs Research, Planning and Information Department (HARID).

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Police maintains internal security in our country. The importance of internal security in national stability and prosperity cannot be over emphasised. Over the past years, the Zambia Police has improved its operations in order to fight crime and make Zambia a safer place to live in and enhance investment opportunities. 
In terms of crime prevention, the Zambia Police has continued to reduce crime levels by improving police operations through recruitment, training and in-service training of more police officers. Currently, police strength stands at 15,000 officers. This number is to increase progressively until it reaches the projected target of 27,000 by 2015.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the computerisation of fingerprints. The Zambia Police has been operating a manual fingerprinting system which it inherited at the time of independence. Thus, processing one document takes two weeks or more. This has proved to be costly, time consuming, inefficient and outdated. Successful processing of fingerprints entails successful prosecution of suspects. This has prompted my Ministry to computerise the Fingerprints Department as one way of speeding up the processing of fingerprints and crime documents. This is an ongoing programme whose procurement process was completed last year and installation of the equipment will commence this year. Once completed, the document processing period will reduce and we will be able to give more accurate results. Also, revenue collection by this unit will increase, thereby increasing the Government’s non-tax revenue.

Mr Chairperson, let me now speak about Special Support Groups in the Police that have been established in most divisions. These will be able to deal with public disturbances and disorder without calling for assistance from the Headquarters. Previously, these units used to move from Lusaka and Kitwe to cover the whole country whenever there were public disturbances and disorder.

There was a rise in the number of traffic accidents between 2005 and 2006 due to the massive inflow of second hand vehicles into the country as well as indisciplined drivers and other factors. This is shown by the following comparative figures:

Year  Accidents Reported   Deaths  Serious Injuries  Minor Injuries
2005   14,075  876  3,079   3,397
2006   19,095   1,170    3,963    12,391

In 2007, the Zambia Police Force and Road Traffic and Safety Agency stiffened road safety regulations. In addition, the sensitisation of road users, coupled with regular highway patrols, check points and speed traps has seen a decrease in the number of reported cases.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia Police stations have been provided with state of the art communication equipment. This has assisted the Police in monitoring, communicating and indeed, attending to crime reports promptly in most of the crime prone areas. The Police still needs more communication equipment to replace the old ones are no longer serviceable and also cater for the plan to increase the number of police officers and structures. It is my Government’s plan to provide quality and state of the art communication equipment for the Police.

Mr Chairperson, transport in the Police has also had a tearing effect. The Police has managed to reduce crime through increased foot and motorised patrols. This has strengthened mechanisms to increase public participation in providing intelligence information for preventing and reducing crime levels in the country. The purchase of motor vehicles and boats is an ongoing programme.

During the period under review, the Government acquired 144 vehicles for the Police. All these vehicles have since been distributed to most police units. However, some police stations do not still have motor vehicles, hence the need to purchase more motor vehicles in this year’s Budget and the budgets to come. During the same period, two big boats have been bought for the Police by the Task Force on Corruption. This has helped ease the problem of river transport. This has since facilitated river and lake patrols.

Mr Chairperson, accommodation has proved to be a great challenge for the growing number of police officers. Currently, the Police continue to face accommodation challenges with over 5,000 police officers paying for their own rentals because the institution does not have the capacity to accommodate them. Furthermore, many of those staying within police camps live in shared accommodation and some even share with widows. The continued stay of retired officers and widows in institutional houses has compounded the situation. Therefore, it is our sincere hope that payment of the repatriation allowances to retirees and estate administrator will continue in earnest to create more accommodation for the Police.

To begin to address this problem, the Government purchased 228 housing units for the Zambia Police Force in Lusaka, North-Western, Northern and Copperbelt Provinces in 2007. We are also in the process of building 1,500 new housing units for the Police in areas where the accommodation problem is acute. This is in line with the Fifth National Development Plan.

Mr Chairperson, my Ministry intends to build the 1,500 housing units. Indeed, we have just gone ahead and signed contracts for us to construct the housing units within the prescribed time. Tender procedures are underway for the remaining 1,000 units. We are anxious to handover the housing units to the Police by December, 2008. As you are aware, the Government intends to increase the Police strength from the current 15,000 officers to 27,000 by 2015.

Mr Chairperson, in order to improve officers’ living and working conditions, the Police has continued to rehabilitate police stations, cells, camp houses, roads, sewer and water systems. In 2007, a number of houses in police camps were rehabilitated, along with nine police stations, five cells and one road, while six water and sewer systems were repaired.

Mr Chairperson, the maintenance of police camps is important to avoid major problems developing. The outstanding utility water bills at Sikanze Police Camp are increasing due to the old pipes that are leaking. These need to be replaced to save water and avoid high water bills. Rehabilitation of Sikanze Police Camp will continue in this year’s Budget.

Mr Chairperson, police officers and their families need close medical attention, as many a time police officers come into contact with armed robbers while on duty. Therefore, the Zambia Police is restructuring and rehabilitating the Sikanze Senior Officers’ Mess into a police hospital. This will enable the police officers and their families access medical treatment cheaply and timely.

Mr Chairperson, in order to effectively and efficiently continue fighting crime, the police officers need to be well trained, disciplined and equipped. To achieve this responsibility, 300 service officers have been exposed to in-service training courses that are being conducted at our three training institutions. In 2007, the Police did not conduct any recruitment exercise due to lack of funds. However, it is our plan that 1,500 trainee constables will be trained.

Mr Chairperson, in order to monitor and combat crime effectively, especially sophisticated motor vehicle theft, livestock thefts and riot control, the Zambia Police intends to create a Police Air Wing. It is worth noting, that the Zambia Police Service is the only one in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Region which does not have an air wing.

Mr Chairperson, the introduction of the air wing has delayed because my Ministry has been busy drawing up an intensive training programme to ensure the availability of trained pilots, engineers and other support staff to man the air wing. At the same time, we intend to engage in serious consultations in order to source for a suitable aircraft supplier who will meet our specifications. It is hoped that this important and necessary asset will be acquired as soon as other requirements are met, most probably, in the next three years, commencing 2009.

Mr Chairperson, the mandate for the Prisons Service is to effectively and efficiently provide and maintain humane custodial and correctional services to inmates and increase industrial and agricultural production in order to contribute to the well being and reform of inmates and maintenance of internal security.

The Prisons Service has continued to provide custodial and correctional services in the best way possible for about 13,531 inmates on average.

Mr Chairperson, the Government has continued with the construction works of Phase I of Mwembeshi Maximum Prison and the renovation of Kamfinsa Prison to create the much needed prison space. As a result, the Prisons Department managed to transfer a significant number of prisoners from the most congested prison centres, namely Lusaka Central and Kabwe Maximum prisons in order to reduce congestion.

Mr Chairperson, the prison kitchens have continued to be rehabilitated and restocked with basic essentials such as cups and plates. To improve the prisoners’ welfare, 30,000 blankets where purchased to enhance the comfort of inmates who already had 15,000 mattresses purchased in 2006.

Mr Chairperson, as a way of correcting and rehabilitating the inmates, several interventions are provided in order to keep them busy. They are also taught the much- needed skills to prepare them for eventual release. This is done through the Production Units in agriculture and industry.

During the period under review, the department managed to procure nine tractors and other farm implements in order to commercialise the agricultural sector in the same sphere. The department managed to produce 7,000 x 50 kg bags of maize under the joint farm venture with the Arab Republic of Egypt, realising K400 million as revenue. The maize was sold on the open market. The proceeds have since been used to recapitalise the 100 hectares of maize which, again, has been planted for the 2007 to 2008 farming season.

The department further produced 45,000 x 50kg bags of white maize which has been stocked for the feeding of inmates up to the next harvest so as to enhance food security in the service. In the same vein, the department produced 2,000 x 50 kg bags of wheat under irrigation. The department managed, from the year’s budgetary allocation, to train 350 officers. This has assisted in enhancing the operations in the Prisons Service.

Mr Chairperson, let me deal with the Department of Immigration. The core mandate of the Immigration Department is to effectively and efficiently facilitate and regulate the entry and exit of persons and to control the stay of immigrants and visitors in the country in order to contribute to internal security and sustainable socio-economic development. The department implements its mandate through various strategies. These include, among others, chase-ups, patrols and operations.

Mr Chairperson, during the period under review, the Immigration Department arrested a total of 11, 718 for illegal entry, illegal exit, illegal stay and illegal working.  Others included forgery of National Registration Cards, passports and aiding and habouring prohibited immigrants. Of this number, 3,833 persons were detained while 5,758 were removed, 83 were deported, while 2,044 where given temporary permits.

 Further, a total of 627,378 persons were allowed entry into Zambia, whereas 4,314 were refused entry. On the other hand, 591,666 exited Zambia through various border controls.

Mr Chairperson, during the year under review, the department recorded a total of 138 Zambians who were repatriated from different countries. A Visa waver extended to tourists resulted in the loss of K13.8 billion during the period under review. I am happy to inform this august House that the Visa waver has now been abolished and Visa fees have been increased by 100 percent. Revenue collection has since risen to unprecedented levels.

In January, 2008 alone, at six revenue collection points, namely Lusaka International Airport, Kasumbalesa, Livingstone International Airport, Mwami, Chirundu and Nakonde, we have collected K100 million. Our revenue target is K109 million which we have been given by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. In one month, we are almost surpassing this. With all the logistics in place, we expect to reach this target well before the end of the financial year. In the area of financing the Budget, the Immigration Department recorded success, as it was allowed 100 per cent appropriation in aid. This greatly improved its operations, thereby enhancing internal security and increasing revenue collection.

Mr Chairperson, office and staff accommodation was renovated in Mwami, Mpulungu, Chembe, Shang’ombo, Katimamulilo, Sakanya and the Immigration Headquarters. The Immigration Department also managed to purchase ten second-hand vehicles and three brand new vehicles during the period under review. However, the department requires more vehicles.

Mr Chairperson, the department also continued to purchase uniforms and I am happy to report that the it is now well stocked with uniforms and will continue to purchase more in this Budget.

A number of officers were sponsored to attend educational seminars and workshops. The department managed to sponsor nine officers undertaking training programmes at different universities and colleges.

Mr Chairperson, by November, 2007, the department had collected K53 billion, exceeding the target of K25 billion set by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Given the necessary logistics, the department anticipates to raise more revenue this year, focusing on porous border controls.

Mr Chairperson, more border controls are needed to facilitate and regulate the entry and exit of persons, thus broadening the revenue base. This year, six border controls are earmarked for construction around the country. The anticipated Uni-visa and free movement of persons being proposed by SADC countries require that Zambia prepares itself to scale up its operations in the regulation and control of entry and exit of people. Therefore, there is a need to build more border controls and procure appropriate equipment to ensure sufficient mechanisms in the legislation and control of the entry into and exit of people from Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, the Drug Enforcement Commission’s core functions are to control and prevent the illegal production, trafficking and abuse of narcotics and psychotropic substances as well as money laundering and to provide rehabilitation services to drug addicts in order to contribute to the socio-economic development and maintenance of internal security.

During the year under review, K18.9 billion was allocated to the Drug Enforcement Commission which facilitated the opening of new offices in Lundazi, Mpika, Sesheke, Kasempa and Mwinilunga.

From these new formations, a total of 102 arrests were recorded with a total seizure of 4.69 tonnes of drugs. Within the given budget, the commission recorded over 2,500 arrests and a seizure of about 52 tonnes of cannabis countrywide. Sensitisation efforts were extended to communities and organisations such as churches and chiefs through the House of Chiefs. This saw the formation of CHURDEC an entity comprising various churches and the commission.

Mr Chairperson, the upcoming Soccer World Cup in South Africa and the opening of new mines in various parts of the country leaves Zambia in a vulnerable position to drug trafficking, human trafficking and money laundering due to its geo-political location in the Southern African Region. Therefore, in 2008, the Drug Enforcement Commission envisages enhancing operations through the acquisition of logistical support such as reliable transport and equipment, recruitment of more officers and the construction of a treatment and rehabilitation centre.

The core mandate of National registration, passport and citizenship is to efficiently and effectively provide digitised National Registration Cards and passports, increase accessibility services for issuance of national identity and travel documents and facilitate acquisition of Zambian citizenship in order to contribute to the maintenance of internal security.

Mr Chairperson, the department is in the process of introducing new digitised passports with enhanced security features in order to curb fraud-related crimes. The new passport will be difficult to alter, thereby reduce the number of fraud-related offences. This, Mr Chairperson, will contribute to the effective maintenance of internal security and peace in the country.

In view of the National Constitutional Conference’s (NCC) deliberations and anticipated referendum, the department will be required to conduct mobile registration exercises. This, Mr Chairperson, will enable citizens in urban and remote areas who have not only attained the age of sixteen and above, but have also lost their National Registration Cards (NRCs) obtain NRCs and be able to contribute to the national democratic process. The essence is to allow as many citizens as possible that are eligible to participate in the referendum.

Mr Chairperson, the core-function of the National Archives is to collect and preserve all public records and archives from all Government ministries and departments, including all other institutions. These records are of a historical value and help policy-makers and the general public, to a large extent, to get information on matters that affect them.

Sir, in 2007, K3 billion was released for the completion of the National Archives Extension Building. The completion of the extension building will enable the department collect records from all provincial record centres that are due to be appraised and eventually archived.

The National Archives have been digitalised, including district notebooks, maps, photographs, British South African Company Collection and some of the colonial newspapers to ease information retrieval and increased access to information.

Mr Chairperson, Phase III of the project has just been approved and includes setting up of the permanent exhibition gallery which will consist of digitalised materials, as the new building will have an exhibition gallery. This will enable the department become a reliable repository for documents and audio visual materials. The display of its holdings will contribute to its participation in the exposition of the tourism industry in Zambia, thereby contributing to the national development of the country.

In the new structure, the National Archives of Zambia intends to open up provincial record centres in the remaining provinces, namely North-Western, Western and Northern provinces. This will improve the collection, preservation and accessibility by local communities of public information.

Sir, the mandate of the Registrar of Societies is to effectively and efficiently register and regulate societies in order to promote freedom of association and enhance good governance. During the year under review, sensitisation on the registration of societies was intensified in a bid to ensure that the public complies with the set requirements. It is the department’s vision in 2008, to intensify inspection and monitoring of registered societies.

In the new structure, the Registrar of Societies intends to open two provincial offices in Ndola and Livingstone as a starting point in order to enhance service delivery. This august House may wish to know that we have, to date, in our records of the Office of the Registrar, 39,355 registered non-governmental organisations, churches and political parties.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the Commissioner for Refugees. Owing to the improved general security situation in our neighbouring countries, notably Angola and the Democratic Republic Congo, Zambia has not experienced a large scale influx of refugees. The focus of my Ministry has been the repatriation of Angolan and Congolese refugees. At the end of 2006, the repatriation of Angolan refuges came to an end after four years of implementation, as 74,000 Angolan refugees were assisted to return to Angola. Over 100,000 returned on their own, but still the country remained with close to an estimated 40,000 Angolan refugees. To this end, my Ministry, during 2008, will continue to re-engage the Government of Angola and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) with a view to reviving the repatriation exercise so that more Angolan refugees can be assisted to return home.

The repatriation of Congolese refugees commenced in 2007, and so far, about 7,400 Congolese refugees have been repatriated to their country. In 2008, my Ministry will continue with the exercise until 2009 when we hope to complete the repatriation programme.

Sir, during 2007, my Ministry, in conjunctions with the UNHCR and the Danish Government, held a National Stakeholders Consultative Workshop and identified gaps that exist in our refugee protection system. During 2008, we shall be focussing on various projects with funding from co-operating partners aimed at feeling the identified gaps; a process that will help to improve the wellbeing of not only the refugees, but also that of the Zambian host communities.

In conclusion, allow me to emphasise the fact that for our nation to develop, we need a concerted effort from everyone in fighting crime and any other vices of corruption and malpractices. My Ministry depends on the public to gather quality information to work on for the continued fight against lawlessness. I hereby call on every citizen and, indeed, all the hon. Members that are here to partake in this noble cause.

Mr Chairperson, it is my hope that the House will support the estimates of expenditure for my Ministry, Home Affairs. God bless you.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity to debate the Ministry of Home Affairs. The Ministry of Home Affairs controls the internal security of this country and it does perform other major functions of protecting this country.

Sir, last time, I spoke about the Ministry of Home Affairs and stated very clearly that this Ministry needed support by way of funding for all the uniformed staff, the Police and immigration officers to be serviced properly because they are, in more than one way or another, in the front of our State.

As usual, when he is not dozing, he is talking and he is not listening, …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … and yet I am debating his Ministry.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to state very clearly that the men and women in uniform and the public servants in the Ministry of Home Affairs, Defence and other ministries are living in insalubrious accommodation and have poor conditions of service. This is exactly what I said last time.

Mr Chairperson, having interacted with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and having been included in the expended Estimates Committee, I am more than happy to confirm that the officials and the hon. Minister in particular were not as mean as I would have thought in the past since they had come up with a Budget of K3 trillion.

Sir, we need this Ministry to look at these issues of accommodation for the police officers, immigration personnel and other public servants. It is as if the Gods were angry with my brother, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs. Despite his many and hard prayers, the rain did not only cause havoc in the rural parts of the Southern Province, but also in Lusaka, particularly in the police camps in Kanyama area. We think that serious attention should be paid to clean up cantonment camps. It was so difficult to mobilise people to help those who were affected by the floods because those who were supposed to help were also affected. Therefore, I wish to appeal to this Government not to have a political agenda, but a human heart when allocating resources.

Mr Chairperson, police officers are improving slowly. The police camps are in a mess and the hon. Minister should be assisted so that these camps are cleaned up. One day, if we have a catastrophe that requires the help of the Police, it will be very difficult to mobilise them because they live all over and outside the camps, in rented accommodation. Therefore, we shall fail to mobilise them.  

Sir, the hon. Minister should also ensure that he complies with international rules and regulations. It is the responsibility of this Government, through the Ministry of Home Affairs, to ensure that there is continuous national registration of voters. There should be continuous issuance of National Registration Cards and indeed, improved passports.

Sir, the hon. Minister has, for the past six months, been talking about the introduction of new passports. Therefore, I would like to hear from him when our daughters and sons of ages of sixteen and eighteen will be getting the National Registration Cards and thereafter, automatically register as voters because this is not a matter that requires the constitutional convention. This is a matter we have been talking about for a very long time.  I notice that this Budget has been reduced compared to last year’s. From the explanation given by the hon. Minister, I think it has been cut because, perhaps, last year, they did not use all the money that was allocated. It is a fundamental political necessity to have a continuous process of registration as citizens and as voters for our people so that we start reducing quarrels every after an election.

Mr Chairperson, I am very certain that already, they may be issuing voters cards just for a by-election in Kanyama where there are floods.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: If we had a continuous registration exercise, there would not have been any need for that.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Member: Question!

Mr Matongo: Of course, you do not know that answer. You would better go and look at yourself in the mirror and you will see what type of a person you are.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, having stated that, I would like the hon. Minister to be supported in the issuance of National Registration Cards and voters cards.

Some of the buildings at the Ministry of Home Affairs are in a very bad state. It is embarrassing to go to the Registrar of Societies. Talk of the archives, it is terribly embarrassing to be there; and yet there is a lot of valuable information. I know the hon. Minister cannot pay for the renovations from his pocket. Even if he wanted to do so, I know he could not. The hon. Minister should see to it that if there was any money that was left, it should go to this Ministry.

Finally, last year, the hon. Minister passionately spoke about crime on this Floor. He did promise this House that there was an improvement in crime prevention and arresting the people that are causing problems in our societies. In reaction, I stated then that one woman burnt to death and one man raping a child is one too many.

Hon. C. J. M. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Sir, if it requires laws to deal with police officers that burn their wives, bring it tomorrow. Laws to deal with defilers and those who smack their wives in order to be loved more, it should be brought because I cannot understand that logic.

Mr Lubinda: Professor!

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Sir, those people must be dealt with. We must deal with all sorts of people who do not have Christian values of love and trust even with their own families. Pedophiles should be dealt with because they are too many. How can a ninety year old man marry a sixteen year old child, just because he is a chief? The excuse is always, tradition. Hon. Minister of Justice, is that tradition?  Let us deal with these people. I know you can do a good job. Let us have them arrested. I have read today in the Post Newspaper in which, at my age, I am being advised that I must be smacking my wife for her to love me. We need lawyers to help us with this and whether that person who said that cannot be arrested. That is a case for you and the hon. Minister of Justice and we shall give you support because we do not want any woman to be abused socially, politically and otherwise.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, of course, there will be questions. In some of the constituencies we come from, there are potholes all over, particularly in Roan. The potholes are too many. Therefore, we shout, “question.”

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to state

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member who is debating so well in order to insinuate that there are problems in Roan Constituency when I am on record as the only hon. Member of Parliament who has donated K686 million worth of medical equipment, which he has never done since he became hon. Member of Parliament. I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The serious ruling of the Chair is that, indeed, there are potholes in many constituencies …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: …so he is in order.

Can you, pleases, continue.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairman, before I was interrupted, I was saying that we needed to support well-meaning programmes such as the one my brother has brought to the table. However, he should ensure that the money is put to proper use and that there is accountability in the ministries. This will ensure that whatever will be passed here as a budget is properly used by the Zambian people.

Sir, if I may, for a moment, turn political, the nearest place to Choma District, which is my constituency is Monze District, with Gwembe on the eastern side. Gwembe has a fairly new police camp being constructed. The police station in Monze is old and was probably put up in 1948. It must have been left by the colonialists. The Choma Police Station is also archaic. As for Pemba, the police camp has become a hive of disease and uncertainty. Police officers live in squalor. It is unfortunate because people from Pemba are usually very smart.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to improve the standard of the camp. It should be like the people of Pemba. If we had an opportunity of releasing money as we heard from previous speakers, we would have done so. However, the role of the legislator is to disburse public and donor funds accordingly. I appeal to the hon. Minister to, please, look at all the police camp and stations around Pemba because we depend on them. Help them with bicycles and motor vehicles.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to contribute to this debate. I agree with the hon. Minister of Home Affairs that there is a need to have passports that will not easily be forged. There was a recent report that quite a number of passports that are being abused world over are actually Zambian. In so doing, we would like to have the Ministry of Home Affairs ensure that this time around, they do get it right.

It is only a few years ago that we got new passports and the reason that was given at that time, was exactly the same as this one.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: They wanted to put in features which would not easily be forged. The question which is asked by the people was whether that was a fund raising venture. To convince the people of Zambia that these constant replacements of passports are not a mere fund raising measure, let us have them done correctly, and let us not, in a few years time, see  yet another introduction of new passports.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: In this introduction of digital passports, we would also ask that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs ensures that the less privileged in our society, the small-scale cross boarder trader, are taken into consideration with the travel documents that will be there. The costs of these must not be as heavy as the passports. This is because quite a good number of our people depend on cross boarder trade and they would not be able to afford passports at a very high rate.

The welfare of the Police is something that we need to look into. They live in very bad conditions. This does not only relate to the way they live, but also the amenities that are made available to them. It is, therefore, gratifying to hear that the Sikanze Police Camp is going to have a hospital. The only drawback is that some other service is being taken away from the police officers in Sikanze in that the mess which they had will no longer be there. It is being converted into a hospital. It is a very good idea, like I said earlier, to have a hospital, but the mess as well had a place in the life of a police officer. It is something which is essential because you do not want your police officers to be going out drinking and mixing with common criminals and so forth. They need to have recreation facilities nearby. I urge the Government to provide a new mess for the officers at Sikanze Police Camp, as this amenity will not be available.

Apart from Sikanze Police Camp, there is a need for this kind of project to be replicated all over the country. There is no reason we cannot have hospitals in Kitwe, Ndola and Livingstone. I think that the Police all over the country need this kind of facility. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister to roll out this particular programme.

The housing of the police officers is something that needs to be looked into very quickly. I understand there are proposals to have a building branch in the Ministry of Home Affairs. I think that before that is put in place, there is a need to evaluate whether that is the best way, whether the Police are equipped enough both administratively and with skills to be able to undertake the building and whether it would not be more prudent and cheaper to merely contract people to construct these buildings because once you have a building branch in the Police Force, there will be a lot of wastage that will tend to creep in. In the end building materials might start missing and so on and so forth. In the long run costs become much higher than if you merely contracted people to construct the building. I think that needs to have some serious thought put into it as to whether it is more cost effective to set up this building branch or to directly pay people to do the construction.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to turn to the situation at the Chipata Overspill Police Post which has been closed. In my view, it is a great pity that the police are seen to be conceding ground to criminals. To retreat from an area and say that you are retreating is abandoning the people of that area. It is also emboldening the criminals that they can over run the police posts. They will now start doing that in other areas as well. It is also leaving a vacuum which, certainly, criminals will try to fill by saying in Chipata Overspill, there is no police because they have abandoned the area and so let us move in and do what we can. I would have proposed that instead of retreating, the Police would have sent a large contingent of police officers to camp there and make sure that they bring the situation under control and slowly remove those extra police officers. To simply retreat and think that the situation will normalise is wrong. How can it normalise when you have left a vacuum?

Mr Chairperson, this kind of situation does not also leave the people of Chipata Overspill feeling safe. They need to feel safe just like every other Zambian. So, please, reverse the decision to retreat from Chipata Overspill and make the people there know that they can sleep every single night feeling safe.

Mr Chairperson, it seems that we have not invested a lot in crowd control. We need to ensure that the police are well trained and equipped for crowd control. Quite often, when we hear of police officers going to control a situation involving crowds, we get to hear of a lot of people being maimed and quite unnecessarily. Sometimes people get killed because the police are not properly trained in this particular aspect of policing and they are also not adequately equipped.

For example, here in Zambia, I have not hear of or seen any water cannons being used in crowd control, and yet world over, it has proved to be a very effective tool to use in such situations. The number of injuries is minimal and no deaths have actually been recorded as a result of use of water cannons. This is something that we should invest in to help in controlling crowds where need be.

The air wing which we have requested for is something that we have been asking for as Opposition for a long time. It is something that would help make the Police more mobile if they had a few helicopters. It would help them quickly police certain types of crime such as car hijacking and so on and so forth. It is easier and faster to police such crimes if you have an air wing.
Sir, one of the things that we have suggested which has not been taken up is partnering with insurance companies in funding this particular aspect. It would be worthwhile in helping the police combat crimes such as car hijacking, but the Ministry of Home of Affairs has not fully explored and exploited this particular avenue. Therefore, I would like to call upon the hon. Minister to quickly look into this issue and ensure we have an air wing division.

 Mr Chairperson, there is a need to make our Archives Department complete. Recently, I was conducting some research on certain matters that go back to the days of the Federation of Rhodesia and Nyasaland. During that research, it became quite apparent that a lot of the materials that I needed were not in our archives, but were in the archives in Harare just because during that particular period, all the items were taken there. Therefore, for us to have complete archives, we need to either retrieve those particular parts of the archives that pertain to Zambia from Harare or at the very least, have good copies made of those archives. Otherwise, we have this gap in our own archives and history. It does not mean that we must lose our heritage and history for ever just because we were linked by the federation at that time, no. Let us go there and retrieve our heritage and make our archives complete.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to join the hon. Member for Pemba, Mr Matongo, in condemning all forms of violence against women.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, in this day and age, as responsible leaders, we must take every single opportunity to fight against this scourge.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: We must make sure that we send out massages that will discourage, in any way, this vice.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, if we are true leaders of this country, we need to do that.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to speak about the Kanyama By-election. I feel that the Police need to increase the number of police officers who are in that area. It was a good idea to send an extra sixty, but quite obviously, the number of violent parties with violent cadres in Kanyama is big. Therefore, there is a need to protect some of us who do not believe in violence and who do not have cadres to fight others, but merely want to provide a service to the people of Kanyama. I urge the Police to send more police to Kanyama so that anybody who is seen perpetrating violence, walking around with pangas or driving around with vehicles filled with stones and pangas is dealt with. This includes the MMD. We need to be responsible enough to create a situation in Zambia where violence is not an alternative political route. We cannot afford to have a situation such as the one in Kenya.  The only way we can make sure that we do not drift down that road is to have zero tolerance to any form of political violence and that includes verbal violence or inciting people to be violent.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you for allowing me to contribute.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Before I give the Floor to the next Member, let me just appeal that the fifteen minutes you are given is really the maximum, but I know that  a number of you are able to make your points in less than fifteen minutes because that will enable have more people debate. We want to debate, but at the same time, we have to ensure that we complete our programme on the Order Paper.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this chance to debate. I will be very brief.

Mr Chairperson, in his speech, the hon. Minister said that he wanted to have a safer Zambia by 2030.  I want to believe that is very possible, especially after listening to what he was describing on how they have improved their offices.

Sir, I support the Vote, but I think the money allocated to the Ministry of Home Affairs is not enough. Last year, only nine police stations were rehabilitated. How many police stations do we have in this country? Yet again this year, they are only given K800 million for the rehabilitation of police stations. This means that by 2010, more than half the police stations in this country will not have been worked on. It also means that those police stations they started with in 2007 will also need rehabilitation. This simply means that they are not going to complete their work at any given time. Therefore, we would like to request the hon. Minster of Finance and National Planning to, please, increase the allocation to the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Sir, Reduction of Crime – K77, 403,846 is only for Lusaka. What about the crime in Livingstone? What about the crime in Chipata and the Copperbelt? This money will all be spent on Lusaka alone when we have crime everywhere in this country, including the rural areas. Therefore, K77, 403,846, is just a drop in the ocean. We need more money for this Ministry.

Having said that, I would like to agree with Hon. Matongo and Hon. Sakwiba Sikota that it is very important to have a police hospital, but we also need a recreation club; a mess for the police officers. When the police had a mess, they were still frustrated. Some police officers went shooting their pregnant wives and killing their fathers-in-law. This is all due to frustration. Police officers went pressing their wives instead of pressing their uniforms. That is attributable to frustration.

 Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: This afternoon, we heard on the news that a former police inspector strangled his wife last night. All this is due to frustrations. If we do not give them a mess, the hospital is going to be full of frustrated police officers. While it is important to have a police hospital, they also need messes in police camps. I was saying the money given to the rehabilitation of police camps is not enough.

Mr Chairperson, last weekend, I was in my constituency and I happen to pass through the Katombola Reformatory. I found the houses of the staff painted blue, quite alright, but they had painted cracked walls. That is not rehabilitation. Can the hon. Minister, please, look into this issue? They should rehabilitate those cracked houses before painting them because you cannot paint a house with cracks.

Finally, Mr Chairperson, since I said I was going to be very brief, can I request the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to, please, notice that the name of the reformatory is not “Katombora”, but “Katombola”. In fact, the indigenous name of that place is Katombolwa, but I do not want to go into those details. Katombola will do. Can they change the name from Katombora to Katombolwa.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I promise to be as brief as I can. I rise, first of all, to support this very important Vote for the Ministry of Home Affairs and the Zambia Police that are extremely important for maintaining law and order as well as internal security in the country and with our neighbours as well.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy, in a way, to note that there have been some increments in the allocations. For the Ministry of Home Affairs, I note that the allocation has risen from K147,418,346,311 last year to K182,111,775,731, representing an increase of about K35 billion. For the Zambia Police, this has increased from K332,531,576,023 to K398,826,458,389, representing an increase of about K66 billion. This looks reasonable, but the needs are much greater. Therefore, hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, while I say you are going in the right direction, more ought to be done because without security, there is nothing that can be done. You cannot talk about macro-economic stability or improvements in the right direction when there is no security. It is extremely important. This Ministry and in particular, the Zambia Police are extremely important in ensuring peace and security, especially when there are by-elections. The way to do it is to ensure that they handle all parties even-handedly. If they show some favouritism on certain groups or parties that are engaged in illegality and violence and this is not handled firmly, that is an invitation and encouragement to those who have been wronged also to engage in illegality and violence. The Police must be seen to be even-handed when maintaining law and order. The moment they do this, they will be seen to be going in the right direction and everybody will respect the law.

Sir, while commending the Police for doing a good job in many areas, I wish to talk about the illegality that we are see, especially on our roads. The people who operate buses and mini-buses can stop anywhere with impunity, turning every place into a bus stop.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: When I was young, if there was no bus and you saw a bus passing, you did not expect it to stop because it would not. You had to run to get to the bus stop. This time, all what a person has to do is stop a mini-bus anywhere. Therefore, if you are driving behind a bus you do not know where it is going to stop or whether someone is coming from behind the bus to cross the road. I think there is a mess. Hon. Minister, this must be looked into. Otherwise, everything is breaking down. It is  like we have the rule of the jungle on our roads. Anybody can stop anywhere and anybody can do anything.

Mr Chairperson, I was once shocked when I was driving on Los Angeles Road into the intersection of Lumumba Road and Los Angeles Road, just by Simoson Building. This was a Sunday afternoon and there was a lot of traffic. Somebody got off a mini-bus, well, the mini-bus was not very full, right in the intersection and started passing urine right there. Meanwhile, there was a convoy of vehicles. I could not believe what I saw. The Police have to act with an iron fist. On Lumumba Road, there is a bus station at City Market, but at some point drivers leave the bus station and take up the whole road, and yet there is a Police Post somewhere there. We have talked about this before, so, I do not know, hon. Minister, what you have to do to ensure that illegality is stopped because once it is condoned, it will continue.

Mr Kambwili: Nchekelako.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, let me refer to a point which my colleague, hon. Member for Livingstone has referred to. These are deaths related to the Police and what happened in Chipata Compound. When criminals murder people, it is a serious matter, but when they shoot police officers and get away with it, it shows that even those who are able to handle them cannot do so. I am happy that in this particular case, the people who were responsible for the killing of that police officer have been arrested. Hon. Minister, when such a thing happens, even you yourself should go on the road and make sure that these people are tracked down because if the police officers are intimidated and begin withdrawing and say no, we want to reorganise ourselves, the criminals assume that they have won. The Police have to handle criminals with a hard fist. I know human rights are important, but if somebody is going to be killing civilians when the Police want to talk about human rights, force must be used. Otherwise, we shall lose it as a country.

Now, perhaps, the Police should consider using teaser guns for crowd control without killing people.

The police air wing has been long overdue. This is something that has been worked on for a long time. Obviously, helicopters are extremely expensive. Although we are looking the Votes for the Zambia Police and the Ministry of Home Affairs, I have not seen any allocation for an aircraft for the Police. May be, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, like his predecessor, Hon. Kalumba, has a way of sometimes seeing these figures and sometimes not.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: I am happy that the Police are considering establishing an air wing. We, obviously, cannot operate without one.

Mr Kambwili: Chiengi.Com.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, talking about immigration offices, it is sometimes heart rending when you go to border post and see the offices and facilities for the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and those for the Immigration Department. It is like they do not belong to the same country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: That is totally unacceptable. We appreciate that there are differences in pay because other officers work for a quasi-parastatal, but the facilities must look a little more meaningful. So, when the hon. Minister says that they are now collecting more revenue at the borders, the immigration officers should actually ask for a little more grant whatever it is called, so that the facilities look a little more comparable. The only thing that looks comparable is maybe the uniform. However, when you go to their offices, one is air conditioned, like in Livingstone, while the other, when you go in, you sweat so much. That is the one for the Zambia Police and immigration officers. I think we should be moving towards harmonising these things.

The National Registration Department is an important one. In is unfortunate that before the elections in 2006, some areas of our country had mobile stations for issuing National Registration Cards for months and even years on end, and yet in some parts of the country, this was only done for weeks. In some areas, like my constituency, they never even went there. Surely, a National Registration Card is a right for every Zambian. It is not a privilege. Why should some areas have the facilities for six, seven months or one year while other areas only have them for two weeks? It is not acceptable.

People are observing what is going on. We know what is happening and I want the hon. Minister to know that it is not acceptable. If he wants to earn the respect of Zambians, especially with these stories we are getting, he must be seen to be fair. Otherwise, he does not stand a chance. The stories I am talking about are those about people with presidential ambitions. So, be seen to be fair, hon. Minister.

With regard to the passport office, I am happy that digitalised passports are going to be introduced. I know that we introduced one some years ago which was said to have security features, but because technology keeps changing, we have to keep up with it. Therefore, it is normal and natural that from time to time, we improve the quality of the passport.

Lastly, I said I would be brief, therefore let me try to do so. The hon. Minister’s …

Laughter 

Dr Machungwa: … office closed the police post at Kasoma Lunga Island …

Mr D Mwila: Why?

Dr Machungwa: … in the Bangweulu Swamps. I have never received a satisfactory explanation for that other than that it is because I left the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD). If the excuse is that there are no houses, it is not true because we have built houses and they are now occupied by teachers because the community needs to use them. Otherwise, they would have been vandalised. When I ask why the police post was closed, I am told that it is because there are no houses. Houses, a police post and cells were there. So what do the people in the area have to do? Does the hon. Minister want the senior chief to come and kneel before him for him to act? So hon. Minister, let us get an explanation for this. Otherwise, I support this vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this Vote. I also wish to thank the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and in particular, the management of the Immigration Department Headquarters for improving the infrastructure at the Department’s offices. This indicates that our men and women at the Immigration Department are committed if resources are given to them.

I will be very brief. Therefore, let me go straight to the issue of chase-ups and other issues within the Immigration Department. The hon. Minister has told this House that 11,718 illegal immigrants were arrested. However, when I come to Programme 7, Activity 01  Conducting Sting Operations and Chase-ups, where these people are supposed to access this money, the allocation has been reduced from K850,010,150 to K653,370,150.

Mr Chairperson, we have been told that the outages that we are experiencing in this country are as a result of huge investments that are coming into this country. Now, to me, that entails that this investment is not being brought by Zambians, but by foreigners. This means that we need to improve this Department by giving it more money so that it can manage to conduct its business such as sting operations and chase-ups effectively.

Again, it was on the Floor of this House that we were told that we had more than 600 Chinese in this country. If you look at the number of immigration officers, we only have 473 officers …

Mr Munaile: For the whole country.

Mr Sing’ombe: … for the whole country. If just the Chinese are more than 600, how do we manage …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Bwekeshapo, iwe!

Mr Sing’ombe: … to fight illegal migration. I wish to ask the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to look into these affairs.

Secondly, I also wish to inform my hon. Minister that it is only the Immigration Department that can create employment opportunities in this country. We have a lot of undesirable people coming into this country and taking up employment. I can give an example of Stanbic Bank in Solwezi which was built by South Africans. Even the plumbers came from South Africa as well as the rest of the workers, when we have skilled people to do all this work. I have always said that when we come into power, we will ensure that we change some of these things.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, surely, we have …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sing’ombe: … places like Mawagali in Choma and Livingstone Trades. How can we allow a situation where South Africans come to put up a toilet in a bank? We shall not accept that. Therefore, if we equip this Department, it will make sure that chase-ups are done and people that are not supposed to be in this country are flashed out. However, with this reduction I do not think this department can be very effective.

Mr Chairperson, when it comes to training, I think that the money that has been allocated to the Immigration Department for this purpose is not enough. In our missions abroad, we have people who retired a long time ago, but are still working. If you go to our mission in South Africa, we have an attaché there that I think retired four years ago. If you go to the United Kingdom, the man who is manning our mission there retired last year. If you go to our Indian mission, you will find someone who, maybe, retired three years ago and the reason that we are given is that we do not have manpower. We have able men and women who can easily take up these jobs. We have graduates in this Department and all we need is to give them enough money for training. The hon. Minister told us that last year, nine officers were sponsored for training. Why should we keep people …

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Old people!

Mr Sing’ombe: … who have retired at the expense of young ones? Therefore, people who have retired in this Department must be brought back. Secondly, I have also mentioned on this Floor that we have a tendency of sending unqualified people to missions abroad. I have advised the Ministry of Tourism to work in conjunction with the Ministry of Home Affairs so that the right people are sent to missions abroad.

Hon. Opposition Member:  Chachine!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, there is no way we can have people from the National Registration Department going to take up immigration positions in the United Kingdom or Malawi.

Hon. Opposition Members: Awe!

Mr Sing’ombe: This could only mean that you are not giving enough money to the Immigration Department for training staff so that you can send your relatives or cadres to missions abroad.

However, if we can equip this Department, we shall have enough qualified human resource. We can draw an example from what the Immigration Department Headquarters looks presently. Although there have been many hon. Ministers of Home Affairs, they never did much. Presently, at the Headquarters, even foreigners can tell that there is some development.

Mr Chairperson, I urge the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to take keen interest in this Department. You have said that last year, the Department realised about K53 billion. However, look at the money you have allocated to it this year. You have given them K16,960,914,077. I think that it would help a lot if you increased it by 25 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, if I saw an illegal immigrant while driving from Lusaka to the Southern Province, the only place I can go to report this is Livingstone even when I see the immigrant in Choma, because the Choma office has no transport do not have.  Immigration offices need enough transport. The ten vehicles that were bought last year are inadequate. They have ended up in regional offices.

Hon. Minister, I would like to ask you to take a keen interest in the Ndola International Airport where a vehicle which was bought in 1988 is still being used. It is so embarrassing to drive a foreigner from the international airport to the regional office or, maybe, a police station in that state. The vehicle is so dilapidated that it is now being referred to as a Lexus, a nickname which was given by a foreigner.

Laughter

Mr Sing’ombe:  If you went to the Ndola International Airport and asked to see the Lexus, you would be taken to this vehicle which was bought twenty years ago. If you asked for transport you would probably be shown the one for the Police. It is so embarrassing. I would like to ask you to look into this matter.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the well-presented Budget by the hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: The Budget was well presented. However, the money which has been given to my dear uncle, hon. Minister of Home Affairs, is not adequate enough to cater for the operations of the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: The money is not enough, …

Hon. Opposition Members: … but we have to do with the little that we have.

Hon Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: In your Ministry, hon. Minister, when you get this money, it does not go to districts. It only ends at the Headquarters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Usually, it is only those who hold high positions at the Headquarters who benefit from the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Those who come from the rural districts such as Chadiza, where I come from, Liuwa, Nyimba and Isoka, do not even know what it feels like to get a settling-in allowance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: The people who are here in Lusaka are the people who are enjoying this money. Hon. Minister, from this year onwards, you should have a tracking system of your money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: When you disburse this money, make sure it reaches Chadiza, Nyimba and other places.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: We thank you that you have given vehicles to these districts. However, how do they operate them without money? How do they operate without stationery and fuel?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: You have done a lot on one hand, but you need to complement your effort on the other.

Mr Kambwili: Ukulya nokuputilisha.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: If this money does not reach the last man at the district level, then you are encouraging corruption.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: It is not the fault of the police officers when they ask for some money from people, because they have to operate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Therefore, I humbly ask you, Sir, from this year, to let the money go to districts. Your Permanent Secretary is here and I am sure he is listening. Let him send the money to the districts.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Although you have finished, I want to advise that you should not bring in the Permanent Secretary. You are not supposed to refer to him even if he is here.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga):  Mr Speaker, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the Vote for the Ministry of Home Affairs. This Ministry is said to be the custodian of safety and order in this country.

Interruptions

Mr Sikazwe:  I said safety. I understand English like I am in Britain.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, as I debate, I want to register my displeasure with what is obtaining on the ground.

Mr Chairperson: Order! Let us hear him.

Mr Sikazwe: There are disturbing stories about some marriages. As, men we have become an embarrassment. We are portraying the worst kind of immorality in this country.

Ms Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Women are always condemning us. This afternoon there was an article in the news about a father who has been accused of defiling his own baby.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: That is good English. I cannot explain the word.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, this is not a matter for us to laugh about. We are supposed to be saddened by the situation. As fathers, parents and men, we are not supposed to laugh about what I am talking about today.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Reverend and the hon. Minister of Home affairs, I would like to refer to a statement from the Bible that reads: “A debtor is a slave of the creditor.” Get me right. I am getting this quotation from the book of Proverbs. The quotation translated in Bemba says, “Uwankongole musha wamwine walupiya.”

Hon. Minister of Home Affairs, we have been enslaved by the food suppliers who have supplied food staff to the Police and Prisons Service. We have really been enslaved and this has brought dissatisfaction, because, as a Government, we seem to be compromising the situation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: We are compromising the situation in the sense that if this prevails, we are creating green pasture for corruption, and yet we are the master and the owner of the Anti-Corruption Commission. May be you are not being fed with the right information by the technocrats that there are billions of Kwacha owed by the Ministry of Home Affairs in the Police and Prisons Service for food supplies.

Mr Imenda: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: I am appealing, on your behalf, to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to release this money and pay off all the food suppliers. Only after this, can we see where the root of mistrust in your Ministry is growing from.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can the hon. Member address the Chair? You are talking to the hon. Minister directly.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I was trying to put emphasis on ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not qualify my guidance. If you are addressing the hon. Minister, you are supposed to address the Chair by saying “I request that the hon. Minister to.”

Mr Sikazwe: Much obliged, Mr Chairperson. The Ministry of Home Affairs is mistrusted and has been accused of encouraging corruption because it takes long to pay the food suppliers. If there has been some mistrust in the food suppliers, the Ministry must launch investigations so that we get the facts and clear the Ministry.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs mentioned that the Ministry was going to introduce a fleet management by employing expert mechanics. This move is welcome. Much as this is supported, there has been a situation where just a problem relating to a tire has delayed the mobility of a vehicle and affecting the policing some areas as a result. The excuse then becomes the tire being awaited from Lusaka to fix on the vehicle, while there are killings and robberies in the areas and the vehicle is resting on stones.

Mr Kambwili: Quality!

Mr Sikazwe: With the improvement in the funding, we would like the hon. Minister to be more proactive than he was before. He should follow up every any ngwee so that there is sanity in the Ministry because the Anti-Corruption Commission is under this Ministry. That arm of the Ministry must be active so that we get the most efficient policing in the system.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister has proposed to buy two boats, but I am saying they are not enough. Just in the Northern Province alone, there are three outlets to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and Tanzania, namely: Chilubi, Mpulungu and Nsumbu. They all require the services of both boats because of the insurgencies in that area. The boats can assist in curbing the rising crime in the constituency.

Mr Kambwili: Hammer boyi. Inchito yabu Minister taisangwa sangwa.

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, I am thankful to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for realising that the Department of Immigration is not funded at all. I was born in Nsumbu, an area bordering DRC and Zambia. That border was closed. After the insurgencies in the DRC in 1996, it was re-opened, but we have only one officer manning a makeshift office; the metal type which was made some forty years ago.

Mr Chairperson, that at Nsumbu Border, on the western part of the Northern Province, we are still losing billions and billions of kwacha. That is why I am inviting the hon. Minister, through you, Mr Chairperson, to come to Nsumbu in Chimbamilonga. The time the police station you will be opening, he must be prepared to come and see how porous the border at Chibanga is.

Sir, action should not only be taken when the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs visits a place. We learnt that Kanyala is active now because the Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs went there. It should not be like that. Suppose the Committee does not go to Nsumbu; suppose they do not go to Kaputa and suppose they do not go to Mwami in the Eastern Province, does it mean that these areas will not be serviced? No. What I am saying is the Immigration Department is handicapped. It is totally crippled.

Sir, last year, I had a chance of meeting the Deputy Chief Immigration Officer. He could not go beyond Kaputa. He claimed that he had little time to in which to visit a lot of places. In Kaputa District, there is Chintateba Border and Chienge District has Puta Border. These are the most porous border points along the boundary with the DRC. As you may be aware, the instability in the DRC has caused a lot of people to flee from the DRC and into Zambia. Not all the people fleeing the DRC are refugees. Some of them are immigrants who need to pay us, thereby increasing our revenue base.

In the Ministry of Home Affairs, under the Department of Immigration, there is a component which has not been catered for and this is communication. At the moment, Nsumbu is not serviced by any mobile service provider and yet there is only one officer manning the post. How can he communicate with Kasama, Mporokoso and Mpulungu? There is a need for some form of communication system - I do not know what you call it in your Ministry – but we knew it as radio message before. We must have a system of communication like that for the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA). ZAWA, in the Nsumbu National Park, can communicate with ZAWA in the Blue Lagoon.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: To that effect, ZAWA is becoming very prominent and its presence is being felt. For your own information, the presence of the Zambia National Service (ZNS) has assisted us in that area, but this will not be for long because after their operational period ceases, the Ministry of Defence will withdraw its battalion. Who is going to assist the Department of Immigration in monitoring, because they are the people who are manning the crane while we are seeing people off to Mpulungu? Therefore, communication in the Ministry of Home Affairs, in the Department of Immigration, is necessary. Thus, K84,985,836 is not enough for procuring communication equipment.

With regard to the funding for Public Relations (PR), I would like to say that this is the reason people do not know that there are even visas. If you go to Nsumbu, you will notice that there are a number of immigrants entering through that border, but when you ask the people of Nsumbu how they can acquire citizenship documents, they will say they do not know. Some have died in Nsumbu without knowing where they can access citizenship documents because the PR Department is almost disabled.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Buy them wheelchairs!

Laughter

Mr Sikazwe: The hon. Minister is going to buy them vehicles and not wheelchairs.

The Deputy Chairperson: Ignore the hecklers. Address the Chair.

Mr Sikazwe: I am, therefore, stating to the hon. Minister who is a Reverend and is a Shepard not just in the Church, but also in the ministry, that his leadership must be felt by responding to our demands, today.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri (Munali): Mr Chairperson, I would like to contribute to this debate which is on the Floor of the House. I thank you because, for the first time, you have addressed me correctly.

Sir, I will not speak much, but briefly about something which is dear to my heart; the Police. I am very disappointed with this year’s Budget because I expected the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs to increase.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: I am disappointed because not much has been done. Even the little increment that we see is insignificant, as prices of commodities have gone up.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: I am in Munali Constituency which accommodates a lot of police officers in Lusaka just like Sikanze Camp. The Chelstone Police Camp is in my constituency. We have had incidents that are really touching and disappointing. We are even scared to look at our police officers because of the way they treat their families.

Mr Chairperson, sometimes, when I look at the hon. Ministers who are guarded by the police officers, I wonder if their heads are okay because I would not allow them to look after me.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The issue of ‘wondering if their heads are okay’ is not very good. Withdraw that and use a more humane phrase.

Laughter

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw the phrase, but I do not know which phrase I can use, because I would not be comfortable to be looked after by the police officers because of their behaviour. Why is their behaviour like this? I feel it is because they are frustrated. If you look at the money they get at the end of the month, it is nothing to write home about. Sir, from the little they earn, they have to rent a house in Kalingalinga or Kalikili …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Do we expect a police officer in such a situation to work properly?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1805 hours until 1815 hours.

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about the behaviour of the Police. Actually, I get surprised to see the way our police are portrayed by our media. I have come to realise that a lot of people do not get a full understanding of why our Police behave the way they do. I would like to highlight some of the reasons the Police behave the way they do.

Mr Chairperson, police officers live in abject poverty.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri:: Sir, the hon. Member for Katombola, who is my elder sister, in her debate, referred to a police officer who shot at his pregnant wife and his father-in-law. If this officer was well paid and felt comfortable to look after his wife, he would not pick up a gun and shoot at his wife. Women work so hard to make sure their husbands are smart. They make sure that their husbands’ uniforms are ironed …

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, I seek your ruling. As far as I am aware, this matter the hon. Member is talking about is in court. Therefore, is she in order to debate on those lines?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member on the Floor should take that point of order into consideration. If this matter is in court, then it is sub-judice.

Can she continue, please.

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri:: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance and I will take that into consideration.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I will go to another matter where we have four police officers sharing one house in the Ben Mwiinga Housing Complex. I am sure you heard the media reports that these officers fight like goats.

Interruptions

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Sir, is this not because of poverty? We also heard, in the Budget Speech, that money was allocated to the Police Service for the construction of some housing units. One hon. Member calculated how many houses would be built from the same money and it was found that only fifteen houses would be built in each province. How are we going to improve like this?

The uniforms the police officers wear must have been given to them towards the 2006 elections. Honestly, can one wear that same uniform for two years? I do not think so. A person cannot even were the same shoes for two years.

Mr Chairperson, when you find these officers on roadblocks, they ask for money from you because they do not get enough. We will only stop blaming our police officers for their behaviour when this Government, which is called a working Government, starts to listen to the cries of the people. I call it a deaf Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Sir, we have seen another situation in the Chipata Overspill and the hon. Member for Livingstone spoke about it. This is where we have seen police officers running away from criminals. That is a fact. When the 2007 Budget was presented, we were assured by the hon. Minister that bullet proof jackets would be procured for the officers, but nothing happened. We are still hearing the same story again in this year’s Budget. I am doubting Thomas and will only congratulate the hon. Minister when I see those bullet proof jackets procured for our officers. Otherwise, we should not blame the officers for running away from the police posts. Why should they risk their lives for K1,000. Who is ready to risk his or her life, leaving his lovely children and wife for K100,000. How many of us hon. Members can do that?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Ms Thomas!

Laughter

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, until we improve the welfare of police officers, this country is not going to improve because the police officers are the law enforcers of this country.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, I can see there are a lot of you who would like to debate, but unfortunately, we have to move on because we have many other items to consider. I will take one more hon. Member to debate this item.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I will be extremely brief. In my contribution, I will start with the money that has been allocated for in-service training. Mostly, this money is not utilised in retraining officers in policing in a multi-party democracy. Most of these police officers are used to providing police services in a one party State where to them, it is service to the ruling party and the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Sir, I wish to submit that under this head, the hon. Minister should ensure that police officers are retrained in providing police services in a multi-party democracy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Sir, police officers should not be shy to deal with members of the Opposition as is the case now. Police officers must be user friendly to every Zambian because they are police officers for Zambians. So, I hope part of this money will bee utilised in this direction.

Mr Chairperson, we proceed to one area of policing which is mostly forgotten. We know that normally, you make provisions for the Criminal Investigation Department which is well and good. After the Criminal Investigations Department have conducted their investigations and they are satisfied that cases or a case has been made for prosecution, that case is referred to the Prosecution Department.

Sir, my submission is that you hardly pay attention to the Prosecution Department in the Zambia Police Force. The good work by the Criminal Investigation Officers normally ends up not being appreciated because sometimes the prosecutions are shoddy for a number of reasons. You do not provide the prosecutors with computers. Instead, most of the prosecutors are using Olympia Typewriters of 1964 to 1967.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Mr Chairperson, I can even sight examples of police stations that use Olympia Typewriters at the moment. Therefore, it is about time these hard working police officers were empowered. They need computers. With computers, they will be able to process dockets quickly. They will also be able to prepare charge sheets and indictments quickly. I hope you will give attention to this because even in the last debate, I submitted along the same line, but unfortunately, improvement if any, has been too marginal to be noticed. At least, I have not noticed any.

Sir, the other department that I think is important is that of National Registration. We know that the Electoral Commission Of Zambia has been mandated by law to carry out a continuous Voter Registration Exercise. However, we are equally mindful that for that exercise to be as fruitful and meaningful as it ought to be, the department of National Registration must be adequately funded to an extent where it will be able to issue National Registration Cards (NRCs) from January to December, annually. We do not want a situation where the issuance of NRCs is only speeded up when there is a by-election around the corner. I think that practice must be discarded. Let us be focused so that we can improve our service delivery.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue relates to police posts. As Member for Chasefu, a rural constituency, I am lamenting that although a police post was constructed at Emusa in my constituency five or six years ago, no steps have been taken to ensure that it starts operating. Emusa is a constituency with over 60,000 people. Surely, hon. Minister, you have the capacity to do better.  My appeal is that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, address the Chair.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: I am much obliged, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to ensure that this time around, the police post at Emusa is properly manned. In my opinion, it is utterly disgraceful for a constituency with over 60,000 people to have one police officer. Worse still, neglect the interests of the people who the police post are supposed serve. I hope you will be able to serve us with police officers.

Mr Chairperson, this is just one side of the problem. The other problem is that there is no accommodation for police officers. How does the Ministry of Home Affairs expect police officers to be posted to that area when they have not provided accommodation? This is haphazard planning. When you plan for a police post, you must also plan for accommodation for the officers. Given the fact that we have a lot of land at Emusa, I hope you will be able to spare some money for the construction of houses for the officers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Sir, I would also like to refer to the problem that we experience on the roads. Breakdown of motor vehicles on our roads is the order of the day. Police officers are not doing anything to ensure that a broken down vehicle is removed from the road. Why is this so?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Have you not budgeted for recovery vans? Most well informed police forces have a unit which is properly equipped with recovery vans so that if a vehicle breaks down, and is abandoned by the owner, the police simply tow it to some place and request the owner to pay a fine. This would be one way of generating additional revenue for this country and for the Ministry of Home Affairs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc.: Mr Chairperson, in the Zambia Police, there is corruption. There are a number of traffic offences that call for fines. However, these days, when that offence is committed, traffic officers simply demand for a key from the driver, which ought not to be the case for certain offences.

My appeal is that officers in the Traffic Department be given orientation. There are offences that call for drastic measures and some that do not. If an offence is committed on the road, give the offender a note requesting him or her to appear at the police station to answer the charges. What is happening now is a result of the rampant corruption obtaining at the Zambia police posts. A police officer will impound somebody’s vehicle on imaginary charges. Surely, hon. Minister, as hardworking as you are, you ought to ensure that corruption is reduced to the bare minimum.

I know that you are working hard, however, sometimes, when you work hard, you are least appreciated. I only hope this time around, you will do something that all of us will appreciate.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I would like to be liberal. Maybe, I should allow one more speaker. I had Hon. Mwiimbu on my list. Do you want to the Floor?

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate the vote pertaining to the Ministry of Home Affairs, particularly the Zambia Police. Although the allocation is inadequate, I would like to support the vote for the Zambia Police. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that law in this country is administered impartially.

Mr Chairperson, we have noted with concern that those who are affluent in society, in most instances, get away with the crimes they commit. We are aware that certain people being charged with very serious offences are treated differently from ordinary Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There are cases that are rushed and disposed off within a month, while ordinary Zambians languish for years in cells without their cases being attended to. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to ensure that there is fairness in the way the police deal with issues of crime in this country.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to appeal to leaders in this country that whenever they address political meetings, they should avoid issues of tribalism. They should not be referring to certain tribes in this country as being tribal. I have in mind someone, who I will not mention, who referred to that issue. It has been reported in the press that the particular senior Government official said that the United Party National Development (UPND) is tribal because most of the hon. Members come from the Southern Province. Is it tribal to align oneself to a political party of one’s choice?

Sir, in this House, all hon. Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD) Members are from the Eastern Province. Therefore, should we claim that FDD is tribal because all the hon. Members come from the Eastern Province?

Hon. UPND Members: No!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, all hon. United National Independence Party (UNIP) Members are from the Eastern Province and all hon. United Liberal Party (ULP) Members are from the Western Province.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I know that I do not raise clumsy …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: …points of order. It is a well-known fact that in 2006, political parties ganged up and filed in as one political party because they were weak. This political party came to be called UDA and it campaigned. In brackets, the smaller parties were mentioned.

After failing to take the presidency, is the hon. Member, who is my brother and he debates very well, now in order to say that there is UNIP, FDD and UPND, when they are supposed to be calling themselves UDA in this House like they did before the elections. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The serious ruling to that point of order is that because the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing has brought in a question that will require the Chairperson to declare interest …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … the Chair will not make a ruling on that one.

Laughter

Could the hon. Member please continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for that outstanding ruling.

Mr Chairperson, we were guided by the hon. Mr Speaker in this House over a point of order that was raised by the same person on the composition in this House and we were all advised adequately. I do not see why he would want to raise this issue again.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!  A ruling has already been made.

Mr Mwiimbu: Much obliged, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Chairperson, the point I am raising is that as leaders, we should thrive to unite all tribes in this country irrespective of which political affiliation we belong to. It is wrong for a senior party official or a senior Government official to be dwelling on issues of tribalism. That is why there are problems in other countries in Africa because of remarks that are made by leaders.

Mr Chairperson, when leaders of a Government make irresponsible statements, they are taken seriously. The followers in the country will take it that whatever they say is guidance on what should be done. Therefore, all those who are making a political mileage out of tribal remarks must be condemned.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, like my other hon. Colleagues have alluded to, the issues of National Registration Cards are important. The continuous Voters Registration cannot take place without the Ministry of Home Affairs issuing National Registration Cards. We are aware that a number of people in Kanyama have been disfranchised because of the failure by the National Registration Office to issue National Registration Cards and thereafter, the Electoral Commission conducting continuous registration.

Mr Chairperson, this Government has the propensity of breaking the laws which we pass in this House. We should not allow a situation where laws are passed and then, we break the law with impunity. Once again, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that people are issued with National Registration Cards.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to comment on is that of the conditions of service in the Police Force. The condition of service in the Police Force are deplorable.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: There are the worst amongst all the security wings in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Why should we segregate against the Zambia Police? If you compare the conditions of service for other security wings, although there are not as attractive as there should be, the conditions in the Police Force are deplorable.

Mr Chairperson, It is not unusual to find police officers begging for money to buy mealie meal. This is because they are not paid adequately. The salaries they get cannot see through a week.
 
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: We are the same Government that is busy condemning them. The Inspector-General of Police himself is on record, saying that the Zambia Police is the most corrupt. Those are just effects. Let us look at the causes. Why are they the most corrupt institution of Government? It is because of the poor conditions of service. Their salaries are so poor. Even the Inspector-General of Police’s salary which was tabled in the House is not worth mentioning. The salary of the Inspector-General of Police is the same as a salary of clerical officer in a bank. Why should we allow a situation where people who are supposed to protect us get such low salaries? Even those who want to invest in this country can only diligently invest if there is security. If there is insecurity, no reasonable businessman or woman would want to invest in this country. It is not prudent.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, we are aware that the Government intends to build 1,500 houses for the Zambian Police. That is far short of the total requirement for the Zambia Police. Even the houses that are available for the Zambia Police are not fit for human habitation. Something adequate and immediate must be done to improve the lives of our hard working Zambia Police officers. They have been working very hard.

Mr Chairperson, as Chairperson for the Rights of Women, Legal Issues and Gender, I would like to categorically state that it is very unfortunate for leaders to be advocating violence against women.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Sir, in this country, the women’s movement, the leadership and even His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia has been advocating for a new law to deal with those who are perpetrating violence against women. As leaders, we should not be careless even if it was intended to be a joke, because our followers usually take it to be the right way of living. We should always be protecting the women. They are our mothers. How would you feel if somebody started harassing and beating your mother for the sake of love? That is very unfortunate. As leaders, we should not do that.

Sir, I would like all of us leaders, wherever we are out there, to advocate for a law that will protect the lives of women and children.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order!

Mr Mwiimbu: Finally, I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to ensure that passports are easily accessible to every Zambia. It is not a privilege to have a passport, but a right. To get a passport in this country, most of our people suffer for long periods. I stand here to state that if there are a percentage of people who own passports in this country, they maybe less than 20 peer cent.

 Hon. UPND Members: hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: As a result, they are denied the right of movement. Let us ensure that our people are protected. As we introduce the new passport, please, let us ensure that bureaucracy is lessoned. I know that there are security considerations which you have to take into account, but please, let us ensure that all those Zambians who want to have passports have the right to obtain them.

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

The Deputy Minister of Local government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate. I have not debated in this House for more than two weeks. Therefore, it is just fair that I debate, especially…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!  You have already been given the Floor. Therefore, just continue debating.

Mr Tetamashimba: First and foremost, I would like to state that the Police are being over worked in this country because of some politicians who claim, for example, that a vehicle that has the number plate, ADB 67 is a Government vehicle, and yet that vehicle belongs to the Minister of Local Government and Housing as a personal vehicle. Such statements are so bad that they can lead to a vehicle being stoned by people because they will think that the Minister is misusing Government property. This is very dangerous, especially that it comes from the leader of the biggest Opposition party in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Tetamashimba: I am also aware that some Members of Parliament from UPND have also ended up losing their vehicles. It is very bad for leaders to go to radio stations and make misleading pronouncements to the nation. We know that is how their forked tongues have been for many years. Therefore, we must give credit to …

Mr Kambwili: Mulelusafye.

Mr Tetamashimba: … Ministry of Home Affairs for what they have done. For the first time, I would like to thank the President of this country because Members of Parliament have now been given diplomatic passports.

Hon. Opposition Member: Why debate yourselves.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to raise this point of order. Is the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing, who knelt down and clapped in the Kaonde style to President Levy Mwanawasa upon his appointment, in order to say that he is going to say, thank you, for the very first time to President Mwanawasa. Is he in order, and yet everyday when we see him on television at the airport he is kneeling and clapping, is he in order, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think hon. Members, let us be serious. It is in order for one to say thank you, no matter how many times it may be.

Can you continue hon. Minister, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for protecting me.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Where I come from, as long as you are Kaonde, when there is an elderly person, you must kneel, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: … but where he comes from, in Lozi land, there is nothing like that.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I want to continue by saying that, yes, it is not correct for leaders to talk about tribalism, but as political parties, we must try to do things without any tribal biases. I will give an example. Even if we say that UPND cannot be tribal, and I know it is not tribal, but when the party fields a Member of Parliament in another place just because that person comes from that tribe, the party will be deemed be tribal even when it is not.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Deputy Minister, the Chair gets a little worried. I mean, if you make reference to tribe incidentally and move on to the main issue, I have no problem with that, but it appears now we are moving away from the vote for Ministry of Home Affairs.

Can you please link that up with the items we are discussing.

Mr Tetamashimba: We are talking about public order and public order involves people who want to speak on tribal lines, it is as simple as all that.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, it is right for us as Government to try and remove the insinuations that they are people on your right who want to tag some political parties as tribal. Personally, I was a Chief Executive of that party, there was no tribalism. I recruited everybody who is that party.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: So, there was no tribalism. It is not right …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … to say that they are tribal …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised, but before I can make a ruling on that point of order, can we debate the two items. It appears we are digressing.

You have your point of order, hon. Member.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the Deputy Minister who has shown clearly that he is not ready to debate …

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Tetamashimba: … in order to imply that he recruited people like myself, when he himself came to my house when he was a Member of the National Party and we had to persuade him to join the UPND. I even bought him two tyres so that …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: … he could join this party. Is he in order to imply that he recruited me when he was in the National Party?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! This is the kind of debate that the Chair is trying to avoid. Rather than debate issues related to public order, we are going into something else. Can the Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing, please, assist by coming on track.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, we do not want anarchy in this country. That is why we are trying to find a way of harmonising issues.

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: It is a fact that people who are new in UPND, like hon. Muntanga, do not know that this party was launched in Solwezi. When you talk of tribal political parties, let us not bring in tribalism because you want to advance a position. This is because tribalism is associated with failures; people who can only win an election in their villages and constituencies. Those are the ones who will talk about tribalism.

Mr Chairperson, we are debating this because it relates to problems of law and order like is the situation in Kenya where the police were seen running from street to street and were of killing people.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, all we are trying to say is that, we must support the Ministry of Home Affairs so that they can do a good job. If any political party thinks that its leaders must be from a certain tribe that is perceived to be a big tribe, then we are going to have trouble in this country. Leadership is not reserved for any single tribe in this country.

Mr Chairperson, coming to the issue of tyres …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No, no, hon. Deputy Minister, let us not come to the issue of tyres.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No, no, hon. Deputy Minister let us not do that. Let us not come to the issue of tyres. The fact that tyres were mentioned does not mean that the hon. Member was right. Those are the kinds of debates that I get worried about. I know he made reference to tyres, which was not right, but that does not mean that you should also continue with something that is not right.

Let us forget about the tyres, and get on to the mainstream, hon. Minister.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, coming to the budget vis-à-vis the tyres that we need for those vehicles.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, the worst you can do is disregard the ruling of the Chair. I said let us not go back to the issue of tyres. That was not right. I have said that the hon. Member should not have made reference to that, but I kept quiet with the hope that it would end there. Now, if you make that the subject of debate, I am afraid, that is not right. Can you leave that issue and come to the subject at hand.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that many people have complained that the Police are arresting people when police vehicles have no good tyres.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: For me to mention tyres for police vehicles, it is because we need more money to by tyres …

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … for them to make sure that the hon. Members of Parliament …

Interruptions

Mr Tetamashimba: … are comfortable wherever they are because the police vehicles would have new tyres for their vehicles. So, again, it is a question of us thanking the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for what he has done. I also want to thank him for being the first hon. Minister of Home Affairs to purchase houses for the Police.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tetamashimba: He must be given credit for that. This will be extended to all the provinces. I heard one of my colleagues talking about increasing the budget for this purpose. Yes, we would have loved to increase this allocation, but some political parties would say reduce the taxes. The more tax is reduced, the facilities for health, education and other services are also affected.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Tetamashimba: That is why we must give credit to what the hon. Minister is doing because it never happened during 1991 to 2001.

Therefore, Mr Chairperson, this is a vote that all of us should support because even the chairperson for indigenous persons would want the Police to be well equipped so that as he fights for land for the indigenous people, the Police would be available to protect him.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter {mospagebreak}

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to wind-up debate on the budget for the Ministry of Home Affairs. I would like to thank the hon. Members for wholeheartedly supporting the 2008 Budget Estimates for my Ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I have taken note of many points that have been raised concerning the need for us to be professional in the Ministry so that we provide the quality service that the people of Zambia so urgently need. I have also taken note of the concerns of the hon. Members of Parliament in many areas, for example, the Eastern Province where a police post has been constructed, and yet there are no officers. We want to assure our brothers, like Hon. Banda, that as soon as we have recruited officers this year, we will allow for police officers to man that police station.

I would  also like to assure Hon. Machungwa that as soon as we have enough manpower, we shall re-organise ourselves in order to go back to the police station that was closed. It is not because he left the MMD that the police station was closed. The Police are there for everybody.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to reiterate that without peace and a stable Government in the nation, it is easy for us to have no investment and development and, indeed, the human rights would also be abrogated. Let me also mention that it is important for us to ensure that peace does exist. Let me deal with one or two points that have been raised and are important for us to cover.

Mr Chairperson, the Zambia Police is recruiting professionals for the Zambia Police Builders’ Brigade. It is not the police officers that are going to be in the builders’ brigade, but professionals who are going to help in the maintenance of police camps in the country. As you know, it is sometimes costly to sub-contract people to come and service the camps. Therefore, the builders’ brigade in the Police is for professionals who we are going to recruit as soon as this Budget is passed.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the issue of the hospital, funds allowing, we shall replicate this in the camps. We thank Hon. Sikota for supporting this and, indeed, the programme shall continue so that the Police can have this facility available. I want to assure the hon. Members, including all those the have supported the point of Hon. Sikota, that in places where officers have lost a mess, a new one has been constructed for the police officers to have access to mess facilities. We have a new mess in Lilayi for all the senior officers who were going to Sikanze Police Camp and the junior officers’ mess has remained open for them to have access to mess facilities.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to just mention one issue that was dealt with. This is the issue of uniforms. I want to assure the House that the Police have good uniforms and even last year, sufficient uniforms were purchased from the 2007 Budget and are being used this year. Therefore, it is not true that the Police do not have uniforms. The stage that we are at now is building up the levels whereby a police officer can have as many as three, four or five pairs for them to be able to look smart.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the Immigration Department, this year, we are going to recruit 100 immigration officers and we hope that we can continue to increase these numbers in order to man all the border posts in the country and ensure that quality service is provided. We are also dealing with the issue of in-service training. The Police have trained a lot of officers, including 600 police officers in-charge, 600 criminal investigations officers, 600 shift officers and 600 platoon commanders. So this training has continued and the public should see an improvement in the quality of service that the police are giving to them.

Mr Chairperson, let me deal with the issue of food suppliers that was raised. It is an issue that concerns my Ministry and, indeed, that has given us a number of sleepless nights. What I want to assure the nation is that we are overhauling the entire food supply system that was in place and we want to put in place a system that is totally transparent and accountable to the people of Zambia to ensure that food suppliers deliver the food and the Government and the people of Zambia are not cheated out of money. Many cases have been taken to court relating to people who supplied nothing, and yet they are claiming so much money from the Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: I thought I should be able to clear this issue.

Mr Chairperson, I usually do not like to hear hon. Members of Parliament condone issues of indiscipline by saying that if officers are corrupt, it is because of the conditions of service. That is not right. As police officers, they are in uniform, have come to serve the nation and we should not have excuses of indiscipline at all. Corruption can be at any level. I reminded the House here that in America, there was the issue of the Enron Corporation. All the top executives of the Enron Corporation in America were corrupt, and yet these were people who were getting more than US$10 million per year. Therefore, corruption is not as a result of poverty, but of lack of integrity in the rank and file of the Police. Inculcating this integrity is important.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I would like to deal with one other issue before I sit down. A number of hon. Members of Parliament here have raised the issue of violence against women. This Government totally condemns violence against women, including all forms of violence.

I would like to draw the attention of the hon. Members of Parliament to the situation in Kanyama which has deteriorated to such levels that there is premeditated violence that is going on, which is bad. I must mention that this endangers the peace in the constituency as well as in the city. It is important that the hon. Members of Parliament know this.

Mr Chairperson, whilst it is not for me to point fingers at who is behind the unwarranted instability, I would like to appeal to all the hon. Members of Parliament to help preserve peace in the nation. It is important that we preserve peace in Kanyama. I urge all the hon. Members of Parliament to guard peace jealously and not to be in the fore of unpeaceful measures.

Mr Chairperson, we saw this issue coming out in Chingola where hon. Members of Parliament were in the forefront, agitating chaos because they wanted to intimidate …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Let me speak. This is important and I want my colleagues, the hon. Members of Parliament, to hear me because we are planting a very bad seed against the very democratic principles that this country needs to move forward. We saw this in Chingola and we are seeing it in Kanyama. As I speak, I have just received a report that Hon. Daka’s vehicles has had all the glasses broken and is damaged. I do not know the condition of Hon. Daka who is one of our hon. Members.

Hon. Opposition Members: He is there. He is fine.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Please wait. I do know his medical condition.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I speak on facts. I want us to deal with this issue as hon. Members of Parliament. It is not right for us to lead cadres and youth to stone vehicles.

Mr Chairperson, the day before yesterday, my hon. Deputy Minister was confronted by an hon. Member of Parliament, leading cadres to go and beat her up. That is totally unacceptable.

I urge the hon. Members of Parliament from the MMD, PF and UPND to preserve peace in the nation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, we have only one country. You can intimidate the voters in Kanyama, but they want peace to vote for a Member of Parliament of their choice. They want to choose someone who is going to represent them. You are not going to break their houses and expect people to vote for you. No! Let us allow peaceful co-existence between parties. We cannot continue with the way things are going in Kanyama.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to give a warning. When hon. Members of Parliament are arrested, we are going to make sure that because they have been involved in riots, we shall take them to court and let the law take effect. This is important.

Mr Chairperson, let me also ask the parties that are here, that the people of Kanyama want free and fair elections. There are parties that are dishing out money, trying to buy voters. Whoever is doing this, whether it is PF, MMD or UPND, is planting a very bad seed in the nation. The future generations will harvest this seed that we are planting and we shall end up in a situation like the one in Kenya. Therefore, I appeal that whilst you support my vote, you should also support the peaceful initiatives that the Police are putting up in Kanyama.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Quality

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Vote 11/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/03 (The Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Lilayi Police Training School – K9,204,171,253)

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I - K304,353,576, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K8,139,423,348 and Activity 03 – Salaries Division III, which has no provision. I wonder if the hon. Minister could explain for us the reason salaries have dropped by a huge amount of about K2.5 billion, leading to almost 30 per cent reduction in real terms. Are we closing down the Lilayi Police Training School at the same time as we are trying to increase the size of the Police Service?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: There has been a restructuring programme going on in the Ministry that has not spared even the Lilayi Police Training School. As a result of the restructuring, a number of positions have to be upgraded to other areas, hence the reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/05 (The Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Mobile Unit K28,450,867,856)

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, I would like to seek clarification on Programme 1 - Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K446,660,712, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K27,526,066,052 and Activity 03 – Salaries Division III and Activity 04 – Wages – K101,671,092 and Other Emoluments that have no provisions. Why is there a disproportionately huge increase in mobile unit personnel where it has nearly K10 billion while the Lilayi Police Training School is closing down?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, in my earlier reply, I said that whilst the Lilayi Police Training School was losing certain positions, other positions were going to other areas, hence the increment being seen in other areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/10 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Copperbelt Province – K42,934,846,299).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Road Traffic Accidents Awareness Workshops – K80,075,000. What is the target group; is it the community or the police officers.

The Deputy Chairperson: What Programme is that?

Mr Kambwili: It is under Operation Unit, Programme 7, Road Traffic Management.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, both the community and police officers are the target group.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, the total expenditure for the Copperbelt Province has gone up by 68 per cent being, again, mostly increase in emoluments and presumably personnel. This is completely disproportionate to, for example, the Central Province with only 3 per cent increase and North-Western and Western provinces with less than 10 per cent increase. Could the hon. Minister, apart from just telling us about the restructuring that has been going on, motivate for us this restructuring. How does it work?

The Deputy Chairperson: Dr Scott, we are no longer on policy issues, but on specific figures. That seems to be a question on policy. However, if the hon. Minister has an answer to that, he can take it up.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, we do not know which programme he is talking about. So I cannot give him an answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 11/14 – (Zambia Police – Ministry of Home Affairs – Eastern Province – K7,352,053,910).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson I have noticed that in all the provinces, there is no provision for police reserves. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister where the budget for police reserves is.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, all reservists are at the Headquarters and operate are on voluntary basis.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 11/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 11/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/02 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Prisons and Reformatories – K35,258,485,431).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Cleaning Services – K127,200,000. Why are we paying for cleaning services when we can use the prisoners to do the cleaning so that we save this money for other purposes?

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Ms Njapau): Mr Chairperson, it is because each department will pay for the officers’ allowances and accommodation during budget preparations.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: You have not answered the question.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I asked about Programme 2, Activity 05 – Cleaning Services – K127,200,000.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: I said, “Why are we paying cleaning services this amount of money when we can use prisoners to do the cleaning so that we use this money for other things.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, the amount of money does not only cover outside services, but also prisons. They need all the materials they need for cleaning prisons as well as where we can contract from outside the prisons where the facility is not available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 12 – Tractors and Implements – K500,000,000. Last year, we had a provision of K1.2 billion, but this year there is a provision of K500,000,000. I am wondering why we have a reduction when we are supporting agriculture.

Sir, may I also have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 16 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles that has no provision this year. I am wondering why there is no provision when we need vehicles in the Prisons Service.

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 12 – Tractors and Implements – K500,000,000, the decrease of K700 million is due to the fact that some of the equipment was bought last year.

Interruptions

Mr Magande: Sir, on Activity 16 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles, this activity was also completed this year. The point is that we bought vehicles for this amount last year. Therefore, we are not buying or budgeting for some more this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 15 – HIV/AIDS Programme for Prisoners – K500,000,000. Last year it was K822,400,000. Why is there a drastic reduction? Are you saying that there is no more HIV/AIDS in the prisons?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, the structures for containing the disease were put in place when we had money last year. Therefore, we are now in the process of sensitisation.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/03 – (Ministry of Home Affairs – Passport and Citizenship – K6,455,122,011).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 04 – Issuance of Machine Readable Passports – K453,483,029 and Activity 05 – Digitised National Travel Documents – K4,865,861,156. How many pieces of passports does he intend to produce using the K4,865,861,156 from which he is also projecting Government revenue of K169 billion. Why is there such a huge disparity between what he is going to collect at K169 billion when he is only investing K4,865,861,156.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 04 –the K453,483,029, this is required for the purchase of machine readable passports and payments of maintenance charges for the current passports in the 2008.

On Activity 05 – K4,865,861,156, this is required for the introduction of Digitised National Travel Document in order to ensure that security is compliant with the standards set by the International Civil Aviation 2008. The increase of K575,861,157 is due to the high cost of the equipment to be installed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the answer from the hon. Minister, but my question was that is he able to indicate how many passports and digitised travel documents will be procured so that I am informed on how he expects to raise K169 billion as revenue from the issuance of passports. Could he kindly give me that information.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, first and foremost, all the old passports will be replaced with an initial number of about 20,000 new passports. Thereafter, we will increase according to the demand.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/04 ─ (Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Archives ─  K1,426,857,863).

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – K122,885,076, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – K249,865,320, Activity 03 – Salaries Division III – K185,757,948, Activity 04 – Wages – K132,362,940 and Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K90,000,000. We seem to have increased the salaries in that programme. I would like to find out whether we are maintaining the same labour establishments because there is a reduction on Programme 2, Activity 15 – Staff Welfare – K 34,459,702. I would like to know what is happening.

Ms Njapau: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I - K122, 885,076, some officers were already posted to this division, hence the decrease after ratification. On Activity 02 – salaries Division II – K249,865,320, the increase of K43.4 million is due to the salary increment awarded to the officers in this division in 2007.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 15/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/05 ─ (Ministry of Home Affairs ─ Immigration Department ─ K16, 960,910,077).
Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Conducting Sting Operations and Chase-Ups – K653,370,150. There is a drastic reduction in the money which was appropriated last year. Last year, we had K850,010,150 for conducting sting operations and chase-ups. Why is this so when we have so many problems of illegal immigrants?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, sting operations are carried out according to the population of illegal immigrants. We repatriated many illegal immigrants last year, hence the reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 12, Activity 03 – Monitoring and Evaluation - K200,000,000. I would like to find out why there is a reduction from K600 million to K200 million this year when the overall budget is increasing.

Further, may I have clarification on Programme 13, Activity 01 – Intelligence Gathering – K360,000,000. I would like to find out why we have a reduction from K450 million to K360 million when we need to increase the allocation for this activity because of the events that have taken place in the recent past.

 
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairman, the activities in both areas are required to be reduced this year in order to achieve certain developments in the other parts of the budget.

 I thank You, Sir.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 11, activity 01 – Procurement of Motor Vehicles – K79,802,054. May I know how many vehicles we intend to buy from this money.

Ms Njapau: Mr Chairperson, K79,802,054 is for the purchase of motor vehicles to be used for general immigration duties countrywide in 2008.

 Hon. Opposition Members: How many?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Njapau: I am giving you the answer. The decrease is due to the fact that vehicles were procured in 2007.

Vote 15/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 15/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 15/13 - (Ministry of Home Affairs – Western Province – Prisons and Reformatories - K396515,327).

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2 – General Administration – K396,515,327.  Sir, I have noted that the figures for this year are identical to the figures for the previous year and I have noted the same in the other few programmes. Considering inflation, why are the figures still the same. There are no changes while the price of fuel has gone up. How could they remain the same?

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I do not seem to understand the question. All we know is that they look alike because they are twins again this year.

 I thank you, Sir.

 Laughter

Vote 15/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_____

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_____

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 20th February, 2008.