DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 21st February, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

___________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

SALE OF KAPIRI GLASS FACTORY

166. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry:

(a) why the Government allowed the sale of the Kapiri Glass Factory to a Zambian investor who had failed to open it and start production; and

(b) whether the Government had plans to revoke the sale and offer it to a more vibrant and serious investor.

The Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, some of the assets of Kapiri Glass Products Limited sold to Chimsoro Milling Company Limited comprise the factory, five managers’ houses, two blocks of flats and the club while the receiver Ernest and Young is holding the rest of the houses. Zambia National Commercial Bank sold the factory following the failure by Floco, a Germany company that purchased it from the Zambia Privatisation Agency. Chimsoro Milling Company Limited was sold the company after a satisfactory feasibility study on the basis that it provided the highest bid and a viable business plan to resuscitate the factory. It also had a good credit rating, had capacity to marshal the required financial resources for long-term development of the company and undertook to continue the core business of manufacturing glass.

The current owner, Chimsoro Milling Company Limited, has commissioned a feasibility study as a quick solution to re-open the factory. The feasibility study established the following:

i. the market situation is viable in the Great Lakes Region, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Zimbabwe and the local market;

ii. the finances required to re-open the factory are at least US$13 million and two local banks have already offered to provide the funds.

The company is looking for technical partners and has since identified two foreign companies which are expected to sign a contract before the first quarter of 2008 ends and start the process of procuring machinery and equipment. One of the two technical partners will be a minority shareholder while the current owner will maintain the majority shares.

Kapiri Glass is expected to be operational in the first quarter of 2009 and continue with the production line of blow glass.

Currently, however, Kapiri Glass has thirty-five employees who are employed at the sand washing plant. The sand is used for filtration of drinking water. The company supplies sand to water utility companies.

Mr Speaker, with regard to part (b) of Hon. Kambwili’s question, there are no plans to revoke the sale.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, this company was sold some time in 2001. This is the seventh year after the sale, but production has not started. Surely, should feasibility studies take so long? What is this Government doing to compel this company to start production and provide employment to the people of Kapiri Mposhi?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, we all would like to have Kapiri Glass Factory operating at full capacity so that we can provide the much-needed jobs for our Zambian people. However, you would also appreciate that in the last seven years since the privatisation of Kapiri Glass Factory, it was initially sold to a Germany company which failed to effect the full operation of the company. Since then, every effort has been and is being made by the new owners, Chimsoro Milling Company Limited, that met with the hon. Minister and I to ensure that we make Kapiri Glass Factory operational by 2009. They have assured us that they are going to have signed contracts with their technical partners whom we mentioned in the answer earlier. Also, they believe very soon, they will mobilise the necessary resources to make the factory fully operational.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out the purchase price for the Kapiri Glass Factory and whether there was no clause in the agreement that specified the duration in which the owner is supposed to develop the factory.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I do not have the purchase price at the moment, but, I like said in the response to Hon. Kambwili, we have met with the people who have currently purchased Kapiri Glass Factory, Chimsoro Milling Company Limited, and they are quite serious investors. At the moment, they are trying to mobilise about US$13 million from the local banks and with the support of their technical partners, we do believe that, really, the factory will be operational by the first quarter of 2009.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, was there any other Zambian investor who was more qualified to buy the Kapiri Glass Factory than Chimsoro Milling Company Limited at the time of sale or was this the best investor?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, at the time the offer was made for the sale of Kapiri Glass Factory, Chimsoro Milling Company Limited provided the most viable business plan as well as the highest bid and due diligence.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika): Mr Speaker, could we learn from the hon. Minister whether there are any international and local investors who have shown interest in establishing similar companies in this industry in Zambia.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, at the moment Chimsoro Milling Company Limited has told us that they have acquired two technical partners. However, we are also encouraging other investment in the glass factory because we also appreciate the concerns of the rest of the citizens who would want as much manufacturing and value addition as possible so that we can create jobs. At the moment, we have responded to some indication of interest in the glass factory and will continue to entertain all those who are showing interest therein so that we can create more glass factories in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister if there are any other companies which were sold to Zambians or non-Zambians and have not started operating because of feasibility studies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, since the whole privatisation process began, we have learnt a lot of lessons from the process. Statistics indicate that over 50 per cent of the companies were sold to Zambians, but most of them were resold to other people because of management problems. Sometimes on the feasibility studies, the due diligence we have done show that the companies did not take off. I do not the have the actual number of companies that were sold to Zambians and have not taken off, not just because of feasibility studies, but because of other problems as well. However, if the hon. Member of Parliament is that interested, he could come to our office and we will give him the information or the information could be brought to this House.

All I can say at the moment is that we have learnt a lot of lessons from the privatisation process. Some of the companies have done well while others have not and due diligence was not the only constraint, but other factors as well such as lack of management and technical expertise.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, from the failures of some of the companies that were sold to the local investors, what has the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry done to assist the companies or individuals who have failed to perform?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, we have said on the Floor of this House, many times, that in the Ministry, we are carrying out a lot of capacity building programmes for the private sector, both at association and individual levels. We are also working with various financial institutions in the country. As you have heard, the various financial instruments that are being offered by the financial institutions in the paper are to try and offer more financial products to the private sector. We are doing quite a lot both at the capacity building and technical levels in terms of product and market development. We are doing this in an effort to support the private sector, particularly, the Zambians who have companies that are having problems. We introduced the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment to try and make sure that we create chances for some of the citizens who are facing various problems particularly, financial and technical problems. The Ministry is doing a lot in terms of capacity building and technical support.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I am not clear whether the hon. Minister’s response indicated how many investors bid for the purchase of the Kapiri Glass Factory. I would also like to find out whether the Kapiri Glass Factory ex-employees have been paid.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I do not have the details yet on how many companies bid at the time. Like I said, the information that I have is that Chimsoro Milling Company Limited provided the best business plan and showed capacity to marshal resources. This was at the time the receivership was by Ernest and Young. If the hon. Member of Parliament is still interested, we would be very happy to bring the information on the status of the employees to the House. He could also visit us at the Ministry so that he could probably give us more useful information on the matter. However, we can also share some of the details on the sale of Kapiri Glass Factory with him.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, at the time of sale, a due diligence study was done and the company Chimsoro Milling Company Limited was considered to have had the best plan to buy this particular company. Further, the hon. Minister is telling us that they had just completed a feasibility study to see if they can sell glass in the region. Surely, before they went on to buy this factory, was that information not available that they have to begin conducting feasibility studies now, after they have already bought the company?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Speaker, in the first place, we should give credit to the current promoter. The company, as said, was initially sold to a German company. This company started operating the Kapiri Glass Factory and failed. As a consequence of the failure by the German company, it was put under receivership of Ernest and Young by Zambia National Commercial Bank (ZANACO).

At this moment, here comes a Zambian who wants to rescue the process. The receiver placed a bid in the newspapers and a number of bidders bid. Out of the bids that were placed, Chimsoro Milling Company Limited’s bid was the most viable.

Having secured the bid, the next stage for any business is to create a feasibility study to inform the investor what levels of investment he wants and what the market space is. The study has been completed and we met with the Chimsoro Milling Company Limited promoters. Two technical partners have expressed interest in providing the technical expertise. We supported them in engaging with the local banks to secure money. All that has been done and we believe that by the end of the first quarter, they will have signed with the technical partner and commence a process of reviving Kapiri Glass Factory. I think we should commend them for the efforts that they are making in reviving the Kapiri Glass Factory.

I thank you, Sir.

PEACE-KEEPING MISSIONS ABROAD FROM 2002 TO 2007

167. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Defence:

(a) how many Zambian soldiers and police officers died on duty while on duty on peace-keeping missions abroad from 2002 to 2007, by gender; and

(b) how much compensation was paid to their survivors in the above mentioned period, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, I have with me a list which, with your permission, I could read, but I have made a summary of the answer as follows:

Twenty-two male soldiers and one female soldier from the rank of Private to Warrant Officer, excluding policemen died on peace-keeping missions from 2002 to 2007 as follows:

 Year       No. of Soldiers Who Died
 
2002                 16
2003                   4 
2004                   2
2005                   1

(b) Each of these deceased soldiers were awarded a US$ 50,000 as compensation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, does the United Nations look into the affairs of the survivors of the deceased soldiers vis-à-vis pension since the soldiers die on the UN Peace-Keeping Missions?

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, the compensation comes from the UN itself.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, the soldiers are Zambian employees as opposed to UN employees. I would like to find out what the Government of Zambia has done regarding benefits in the form compensation to the families of the deceased individual soldiers.

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): I thank you, Mr Speaker. The existing arrangement is that if we lose a Zambian officer in the UN operations, there is a lump sum of US$50,000 that is given and the body is flown to Lusaka. On arrival into the country, the body is received with full military colours. The Government works out the normal pensions according to the existing laws.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm that the compensation is lower for Zambian soldiers compared to soldiers from European countries? When is the hon. Minister going to put up a proposal for equal compensation of international standards?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, there is no disparity in the amount of compensation. This is the standard procedure which covers all countries that agree to undertake these assignments on behalf of the UN or the African Union (AU).

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how many of the deceased soldiers, in the period under review, died from natural causes and how many died due to misadventure.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, we were asked to provide details regarding how many Zambians soldiers died. The hon. Member of Parliament can lodge in a question for the information he wants. We would like to be accurate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, in view of what the hon. Minister indicated to this House, can he confirm whether or not the Government feels it necessary to take out life assurance policies for the soldiers who go into combat on these missions?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, once the soldiers are under the UN operations, that aspect is taken care of by the UN.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what criteria ‘is’ used to select the officers who are sent to undertake this Government work. It seems that only those in bigger towns benefit from this facility.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The Chair wishes to guide the hon. Minister of Defence that, in fact, the hon. Member wants to know the criteria, meaning more than one. Criteria are plural. Are there any criteria used?

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, the function of choosing which soldiers to be sent on missions abroad is a prerogative of the Zambia Army or the Defence Command. Once there is a vacancy, they inform their various barracks to indicate. The other criteria are discipline, fitness and other abilities. These are seriously considered before a soldier is nominated.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government takes any percentage out of the compensation that the UN sends for the deceased Zambian soldiers’ families?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, the Government does not get any cuts in the …

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: … compensation. If anything, the Government supplements the compensation as it takes up all the functions of hosting funerals by providing transport and any other requirements. The Government is not involved in that arrangement.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, is the 30 per cent of the female gender representation followed in selecting soldiers going outside the country?

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, these are difficult and hazardous assignments.

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: The women are considered for those functions that do not expose them to a lot of danger.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that Zambian soldiers and police officers do not belong to any union, and obviously they differ in ranks. I would like to find out from him the formula used to pay the soldiers and the police officers.

Mr Mpombo: Mr Speaker, although that is a mind-boggling question, …

Laughter

Mr Mpombo: … I will attempt to answer it. When each country sends its officers on these operations, we are made to know the conditions, like how the UN will assist in the event that our soldiers or policemen died. This assistance is the standard payment of US$50,000. There are no formulae or union activities involved.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

LIFESPAN AND REVENUE COLLECTED FROM MINDOLO SHAFT, CHIBULUMA, NCHANGA OPEN PIT MINE

168. Mr D. Mwila asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

 (a) what the life span of each of the following mines was:

 (i) Chibuluma;
 (ii) Nchanga Open Pit; and 
 (iii) Mindolo Shaft; and

 (b) what the total ore body remaining in the mines above was; and

 (c) how much revenue the Government was likely to collect in (a) above.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. V. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House as follows:

Mr Speaker, the life span of the mines listed in the question based on proven and probable reserves is as follows:

 (i) Chibuluma Mine is 8 years up to 2016;
 (ii) Nchanga Open Pit Mine is 14 years extending to 2021/22; and
 (iii) Mindolo Shaft is 17 years up to 2025.

Inferred reserves are yet to be fully assessed.

(b) With regard to part (b) of the question, the total proven and probable ore reserves remaining in the three mines is 64.7 million tonnes, broken down as follows:

Mine                                        Amount

(i) Chibuluma Mines Plc       5.5 million tonnes
(ii) Nchanga Open Pit         33.2 million tonnes
(iii) Mindolo Shaft               26.0 million tonnes
 Total                                  64.7 million tonnes

(c) with regard to part (c) of the question, I would like to inform the House that at the current mining metallurgical and copper price market parameters, the estimated revenue from the mines listed in (a) is as follows:

Mine             Life end finished                 Life end Revenue                        Life end Revenue
                    Copper (Tonnes)                 (USD)                                          (K)

Chibuluma         150,000                          108 million                                   432 billion
Nchanga
Open Pit            461,619                          332 million                                1,328 billion
Mindolo
Shaft                239,948                           173 million                                   691 billion
Total                 851,567                            613 million                               2,451 billion

Further, the House may wish to know that these figures are not final, as they are only estimates. However, we expect substantial revenue in-flows when the new fiscal regime is effected benning 1st April, 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, we have been informed that after eight years, we will have no copper in the three mines. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what would be the benefit to the community after our copper has finished because roads are in a bad state.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, the lifespan of the three mines mentioned is eight years for Chibuluma Mine Plc, fourteen years for Nchanga Open Pit and Seventeen years for Mindolo Shaft which is owned by Mopani Copper Mines Plc. Therefore, there is no information that any of these mines will close down before eight years.

However, after eight years, we would like to make mining activities sustain the production of other essential activities like agriculture. We would like to see the revenues collected from copper used to create industries in agriculture and manufacturing that will sustain us beyond the lifespan of copper.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the lifespan for the mines that the hon. Minister has mentioned have the same lifespan that were quoted when the price of copper was low. I do realise that with the improved copper prices, since the lifespan is also a function of economics as you have rightly put it, it should also increase because it means we can go deeper and capture more ore. Why are we still quoting the same lifespan? Is the Ministry capable of monitoring what is going on in these mines?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kanyanyamina: Ni ba Engineer, aba!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the lifespan quoted for the three mines are based on proven reserves. The inferred and unknown reserves are not known, but we know that these companies are keen on ensuring that they assess the availability of future deposits because of the metal boom as well as the attractive climate for investment in this country. Therefore, we expect the lifespan of these mines to go beyond the fourteen, seventeen and eighteen years for Chibuluma Plc, Nchanga and Mindolo Shaft, respectively.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, can I be informed by the hon. Minister, please, whether the revenue estimates that we have been given are based on the existing mining tax regime or the ones which the Government has promised to bring to us in the next few days? If it is the former, why is it not based on the new tax regime or is the Government still thinking it is going to actually negotiate that?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the revenue estimates we quoted are based on the current or the existing tax regime because we cannot tax them on the regime that is not yet operational. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning made it very clear that the measures announced will only take effect from 1st April, 2008. We have also indicated that from 1st April, there will be more substantial revenue accruing to us as a result of the new tax regime that will become operational on 1st April, 2008.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, when the mines were owned by the Zambians, there was a thirty-year outlook which envisaged that every mine had some specific ore bodies to replace when those ore bodies went out of production. Would the hon. Minister indicate whether there are such plans that when the ore deposits in the three mines he has specified here are exhausted, there will be new ore bodies to replace them.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, it is possible that when these ores are exhausted, there will be new ones because there is information that we have what we call inferred and unknown reserves. Furthermore, the mining companies are keen on exploring these reserves so that they increase their production levels.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, a Zambian cut-off grade is usually above 1.6 per cent. The mines in countries such as Chile work even at 0.5 per cent. Is there any plan by the Government and the Ministry, in particular, to encourage these miners to go back to these dumpsites that carry a lower grade of 1.5 per cent?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, yes, I can confirm that we have those plans. In fact, we are encouraging production of reserves whose copper content is below 1 per cent and Lumwana Mine with 0.7 per cent is an example. However, what compensates for that is the fact that the lifespan of that mine is thirty-four or thirty-five years. The Copper around Lusaka and Chongwe is also of a grade of about 1.5 per cent. Therefore, we are encouraging the company, that is in its exploration stage now, to go into production. Owing to the good prices and attractive investment regime, most companies are willing to explore even the lower reserves of copper.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, when Anglo-American Corporation Plc. took over Nchanga Open Pit Mine, they indicated that the lifespan was five years from 1990 when they came. They retrenched workers and sold off some equipment claiming that the lifespan was only five years. What has happened to change the lifespan from five years, as indicated by Anglo-American Corporation Plc., to the eight years that the hon. Minister has stated in this House/

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the reason is the new technology that has come on board in the last few years as well as the attractive copper prices. These two factors are responsible for extending the lifespan. Also, there has been some exploration work that has been undertaken which ZCCM was not able to do.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, my concern is with regard to the shaft at Chibuluma Mine Plc. Is the Ministry considering to what use they will put the shaft after all the copper has been exhausted?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the opening and closure of any mine is subjected to intensive and exhaustive environmental assessment plans and Chibuluma Mine has made that assessment. The commissioning and closure plans will determine what to do with the pit at the time the mine will be closed.

I thank you, Sir. 

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, are there any plans of introducing in-situ leaching in order to prolong the lives of those mines.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the in-situ leaching plant is the technology that Mopani Copper Mines Plc. and Mufulira Mine are using to claim copper in mine areas that otherwise will not be recovered by any other method. We think that for any mine that wants to claim what may not be claimed by conventional methods, we recommend the in-situ leaching plant method.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola): Mr Speaker, does the Government have any plans to force the mine investors to improve the major social responsibilities that they are providing arising from the revenue that they are getting from the areas where they are operating from?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we have said time and again in this House that all mining companies are urged to take up more responsibilities in their communities because this is a legal select by Anglo-American Corporation Plc. which was extended further by ZCCM then. So, all mining companies will be urged to take up more responsibilities despite the increase in taxation. The responsibilities in communities where they operate is a world wide phenomena and they have to continue providing services.

I thank you, Sir.
______{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 17 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – K194,303,671,231).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Madam Chairperson, at the time business was adjourned yesterday, I was going through some of the activities that the Ministry did, particularly, in relation to the arrangements what the Ministry did for His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia.

Madam, during the year 2007, among the activities that were undertaken, the President also attended a business forum as well as meetings with several Chief Executives of various companies based in the United States of America. He also attended the United Nations General Assembly where he addressed the General Assembly on many issues, including the United Nations Reforms, especially in the Security Council, Climate Change, Millennium Development Goals, International Terrorism and the fight Against Corruption.

Madam, he travelled to Germany where he held bilateral talks with the German President and the Chancellor before attending the Africa European Union (EU) Summit in Lisbon, Portugal.

Madam Chairperson, during the year 2008, the Ministry will continue to play a leading role in co-ordinating bilateral, regional and multi-lateral activities with our co-operating partners.

As earlier alluded to, Zambia, in August, 2007, hosted the 27th Ordinary Summit of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Heads of State and Government where His Excellency the President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, was chosen as Chairperson of SADC.

 Zambia as the current Chair of SADC is mandated to provide effective leadership for the realisation of the objectives of the organisation. This entails holding several consultative meetings and high level talks with all concerned to enable the Chair’s decisions to filter through to all the stakeholders.

Madam, thus, Zambia is to host the SADC Council of Ministers’ Meeting towards the end of this month to look at the several issues, including the job evaluation exercise relating to the SADC Secretariat, the Budget for 2008 to 2009, the Infrastructure Master Plan and the review of progress recorded in all sectors in line with the Regional Indicating Development Plan.

Madam Chairperson, it is envisaged that in 2008, an extraordinary summit will also be held to address issues of fast tracking regional integration, particularly reaching an agreement on the suitable type of customs union for the SADC, common external tariff and revenue collection modalities, as well as the Infrastructure Master Plan.

Madam, the activities to be carried out by Zambia as the Chair of SADC, shall need adequate financial resources if they have to be implemented effectively. Equally, adequate financial resources will also be required to facilitate the smooth functioning of the local secretariat that has been put in place to service the Office of the SADC Chairperson during his one-year tenure of office.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the issue of fostering bilateral relations, during the year 2008, my Ministry will facilitate the hosting of the Joint Permanent Commissions of Co-operation (JPCC) with some of our neighbouring countries and other countries with a view to promoting Zambia’s Foreign Policy and enhance Zambia’s own development aspirations.

Madam, these commissions provide a solid framework for co-ordination and promotion of economic and social relations between Zambia and other countries. The Ministry has planned to hold, both at home and abroad, four out of the planned eleven Joint Permanent Commissions of Co-operation Sessions with other countries.

At the international level, the Ministry shall continue to play a leading role in the preparation, facilitation and participation of Zambia at major regional and international meetings and conferences, such as the United Nations, the Tokyo International Conference on Africa’s Development (TICAD), the Asia-Africa Summit and the African Union Meetings, with a view to effectively contribute to the country’s socio-economic development as well as Zambia’s standing in the world.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry will, within the context of the Great Lakes Region (GLR), host the regional centre for the promotion of democracy, good governance, human rights and civic education. The objective of the Centre is to strengthen institutional capacities in various areas, through research and training and re-establish observatories. This is an enormous exercise, which will equally require resources. The Ministry has made a budgetary provision for this activity.

Further, the Ministry needs to set up a National Secretariat for the New Economic Partnership for African Development (NEPAD). As the House may be aware, the NEPAD Initiative is the socio-economic development programme for the African Union of which Zambia is an active member. The National Secretariat will be charged with the overarching responsibility of over seeing the implementation of the NEPAD programmes and projects and will be directed by the National Steering Committee.

Madam Chairperson, as the House may be aware, the Ministry Headquarters does not operate in isolation. It is complemented by the services of Zambia’s Missions Abroad to effectively implement Zambia’s Foreign Policy. The challenge facing our missions abroad is the escalating transaction costs of goods and services as a result of the depreciation of the US Dollar against major European currencies such as the Euro and the British Pound. The fluctuations are eroding the value of the Recurrent Departmental Charges (RDCs). The Ministry has embarked on carrying out renovations and repair works of assets which it owns.

Madam Chairperson, in the past, inadequate allocations have been made to our missions abroad, resulting in piecemeal repairs to infrastructure. To this end, the Ministry now intends to allocate resources in trenches, as resources become available. This year, the Ministry intends to carry out renovations in Dar-es-Salaam, Gaborone, Lubumbashi, Stockholm, Ottawa and New York.

Madam Chairperson, in order to further enhance economic interaction with other countries, the Ministry also intends to open a mission in Malaysia this year. As you are aware, Malaysia has been instrumental in assisting Zambia develop a model to achieve rapid economic growth and development using the Triangle of Hope Concept based on their experience.

In addition, Malaysia is considering establishing a Multi-Facility Zone in Zambia that will focus on high technology development. The mission in Malaysia will, therefore, enhance these endeavours and many other economic activities between the two countries.

Madam Chairperson, as the House may be aware, the Government has shifted emphasis from political to economic diplomacy. The opening of new missions and the participation of Zambia in regional and multi-lateral conferences and meetings, in itself, is insufficient to effectively strengthen Zambia’s position in international economic diplomacy. To complement these efforts, there is a need for an effective career Foreign Service. Adequate resources need to be allocated to the Zambia Institute for Diplomacy and International Studies (ZIDIS) for it to carry out its training programmes effectively. In this connection, suitable training infrastructure is required, as the current location of the institute at the Government Complex is not suitable. In this regard, the Ministry is in the process of identifying suitable premises to which ZIDIS can be relocated.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to reiterate the Ministry’s commitment to the prudent use of financial resources aimed at ensuring the attainment of improved quality service delivery for the benefit of the people of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, let me conclude by thanking this august House as well as other ministries and institutions for their invaluable support during the past year, which enabled the Ministry to effectively implement Zambia’s Foreign Policy. In the same vein, I wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support my Ministry’s budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Chairperson, while I stand to support the Vote on the Floor, I have a few observations to make.

Madam Chairperson, I have been in this august House for the past seven years. My experience is that the Government, in the first three years, assured us that career diplomacy would be implemented and the culture of sending cadres done away with.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: However, to my surprise, party cadres are still being posted in Foreign Affairs. What has gone wrong with the original plan which was adopted and agreed to five years ago that career diplomacy be assigned specifically to the trained diplomats? Why not send career diplomats instead of cadres?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Muyanda: There were some hon. Members of this august House who were not elected. They lamentably lost at here at home. A failure at home cannot effectively represent Zambia abroad.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: I would like to say that it is not correct to send failures abroad. Once you have been rejected by the people of Zambia because they have found out that you do not have the capacity to be in this august House …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … there is no justification for the appointing authorities to send you to France. What will he do in France if he is a failure at home?

Madam Chairperson, we would like to see that the money we are voting for this year is utilised by career diplomats who will project a good image of Zambia’s tourism potential, not men and women who have no idea where Livingstone is situated. During the Parliamentary Committee tour, I was in the Northern part of Zambia. It was the first time I was seeing one of the most beautiful falls in this country. How can a person who has lost an election in Zambia talk about a falls on Kalungwishi River, which is a fantastic place, abroad? I did not know that Zambia was endowed with such a fantastic tourism site. 

Nevertheless, how will a person who has been rejected and labeled a political failure succeed in France, Belgium or Libya? He cannot. Some of them do not even know foreign languages such as French. We know each other very well because we struggled together. They could hardly express themselves in English, which is the official language of their country, and yet today, these men and women go to France without the slightest idea of the language of the host country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, to me, this is a waste of public resources. That is all on the aspect of career diplomacy.

Madam Chairperson, there is another significant element of utilising public resources. Auditing in most of the embassies is not being carried out effectively. Resources are not well utilised and well managed. This is a very serious issue. Public resources ought to be audited year in and year out so that the people have a clear picture of what is prevailing in Namibia and other countries. I have given an example of Namibia because I went on tour to that country. We found what I will call a semi-disaster. It was alleged that Zambia’s rentals were not being receipted and banked. These are serious allegations which were subsequently highlighted in the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) report.

Madam, if in foreign missions, we do not mange to create a good and clear picture of what Zambia ought to be, what are we doing? We have to be serious about the people we send abroad. They have to be responsible for Zambia’s resources.

Madam Chairperson, you know that I am brief in my debates. Therefore, this is the end of my debate.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, I also wish to support the Vote on the Floor.

In doing so, I would like to put it to the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs that at independence, the Foreign Policy of this country was intended to assist our brothers and sisters who were not liberatered from the colonial york. That was our major emphasis. Immediately all the neighbouring countries became independent, we shifted away from that Foreign Policy and our emphasis has been on the importance of attracting investment to our country so that we can develop our economy within the shortest possible time. In other words, even the appointment of our envoys should reflect this policy.

Madam Chairperson, of late, I have seen that the moment we appoint our brothers and sisters to go and represent us, instead of attracting investment to this country, they take it that their appointment means a very handsome opportunity for them to enrich themselves. I think the hon. Minister has a task of changing this perception. Whenever a Zambian is appointed to represent us in our missions abroad, that person should know his/her major task is to attract foreign investment so that we can develop as quickly as possible. This, hon. Minister, you should emphasise even to the appointing authority. However unpopular, timely advice should be given because all along, as my hon. Colleague has ably put, we have been making experiments. That is why we fail to develop economically, as a country, because you have been sending people who take it that immediately their names have been announced as diplomats, they take it that opportunities have been created for them to make money. That is why we have been lagging behind economically.

Madam Chairperson, in other countries, whenever they send a diplomat to present that particular country, their major emphasis is on how many investors I am going to attract to my country. The moment they make their credentials available to the host country, they draw up an agenda to begin meeting investors. In our situation, for example, the calibre of some of our diplomats, I am afraid, demonstrate that we will continue talking economic development and we will continue talking about how we can attract investment to our country and this will remain a pipedream simply because you have never been serious. Therefore, hon. Minister, I would like to implore you to make it known to would be envoys that, please, the society has changed. Society is dynamic.

Madam Chairperson, gone are the days when we would appoint all our brothers and sister to represent us in our missions abroad for the purposes of their own enrichment. They should now put emphasis on attracting investment to our country. We want to create job opportunities in our country. We can do that through our own diplomats.

Madam Chairperson, if you send diplomats whose role is simply to make tea every morning, afternoon and night and cannot express themselves in the official language of the hosting nation, I am afraid, we will be investing our resources in wrong people and that is very costly.

For example, look at developed countries and the type of leadership that they send to Africa. You will be able to see for yourselves that this person is serious. Upon arrival in the country, you will hear that the person is in Mazabuka, Livingstone and Northern Province. Why? They are looking at investment opportunities and informing their people to come and see what Zambia has to offer. In our own situation, it is a question of looking at their tall buildings. The moment they are taken to all these tall buildings and hold functions with the host countries, they become so comfortable that “I am in the United Kingdom and Namibia and so on” that they forget what they are for. We have to shift away from that kind of arrangement, hon. Minister.

Madam Chairperson, time has come for us to put emphasis on economic development. That is why we have lagged behind. We should be seen to be sending representatives who are able to understand and interpret the meaning of golablisation.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You should not send a person who will be invited to discuss the same important aspect of globalization, but fail to make any contribution to the discussion. You should be able to send back their reports and say “Can you do this and that in terms of economic benefits that can derived from that country where you are serving as a Zambian?”. You should be doing that.

Madam, sometimes, the reports that we receive are funny. They will be telling you about the political situation in that country, but that is not our concern. It could be our concern, but our major emphasis should be how able are those people to come and assist us economically?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: When you look at these reports that come to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, you may even wonder whether those who receive them are serious. Very funny reports. They will be talking about some fairs which took place in those countries and a football match.

Laughter 

Mr Kasongo: Surely, do we send our diplomats to write such reports? Those are the reports the hon. Minister has been entertaining. Hon. Minister, we rate highly and we want you to lay a profile in that Ministry. You were able to demonstrate to all of us that you are a hard performer when you were privileged to save in other ministries. Use the same skill and courage to ensure that we invest a lot in our country through our envoys. They should not be allowed to be taking tea always and watching football matches between Manchester United and other clubs and so on. No. They are there for serious business and they are representing Zambians who are living in abject poverty and looking to them to provide strong leadership so that we can construct a lot of schools, hospitals and improve the conditions of service for the Judiciary and other Government employees. That is what they are supposed to be doing. They are not supposed to be playing around.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister should insist that all the reports that they will be sending to your Ministry should put emphasis on what kind of investment they are going to attract to our country. Short of that, please, hon. Minister, though the Chair, could you send the reports back for improvement purposes. You should also find time to have a chat with the Head of State and tell him to have a look at the reports that you have been receiving from these envoys. We are not impressed. Could you make changes?

I can assure you that I have no problem with the language of a “Family Tree”. As long as the person can perform, I will encourage it. However, I am afraid some of our envoys have not been able to measure up to the expectations of Zambians. No. At our level, when you meet them and greet them and try to ask them economic questions, they fail to respond properly. Yet, these are the people who are kept in all these missions abroad for a long time, wasting the taxpayers’ money.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, through the Chair, to begin auditing the performance of our envoys because that is cardinal. How often do to you appraise the performance of these envoys? Do you have any procedure of rating them? Rating a person will help you to understand whether that person is a performer or not. How often do you rate them? For example, if you have not introduced a system of rating our envoys, my timely advice to you, hon. Minister, through the Chair, is that you have to do it as quickly as possible.

Madam, I am grateful that in his speech, he has discussed the importance of looking after our financial resources prudently. That is cardinal. However, I can assure you that sometimes such weaknesses are made by us who are here in Zambia who have turned our envoys destitute. Instead of remitting what is due to them timely, you spend about three months or so doing so. A poor envoy, who has nothing to look to and is in a foreign country, will be prompted to use the money meant for the Ministry of Home Affairs. That is happening in missions abroad where you have representatives from the Immigration Department. That normally happens. A poor envoy has no money. He phones and writes to request for his dues, but the response is that, “No. We will remit the money. We are still looking for it.” Meanwhile, the poor person needs to attend to some pressing needs. Take note of that. We, as Zambians, do not want to be embarrassed because the moment you make that envoy destitute in a foreign country, you are embarrassing Zambia as a whole.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We are proud people. We are men and women of integrity and want our envoys to carry this banner. If you fail to send money that is due to them in good time, there will be a lot of temptations. Do not turn our envoys destitute. If there is a desk officer at your Ministry who is supposed to liaise with the Ministry of Finance and National Planning to ensure that funds which are intended to be sent to our missions abroad are sent as quickly as possible, let that desk officer be at Ministry of Finance and National Planning all the time. It is embarrassing. Most of them are studying and cannot even send their children to school simply because they have not been funded. Who is to blame? A poor envoy who is in an financial crisis will be tempted to use the money for Immigration Department. Please, make sure that you attend to the plight of our envoys as quickly as possible to avoid this embarrassing situation.

For example, most the buildings they operate from are in a state of disrepair. As Zambians, we are a proud people and a lot of people respect us. That respect can be extended to other countries where these envoys are serving by looking after them as comfortably as possible. Most of the buildings where our envoys operate from cannot even be described as buildings.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: It is either they are leaking, or I do not know what. For lack of a better word, they are just in ‘tatters’. What are you doing about this? Do you compare with the other buildings occupied by the envoys from the other countries? They are very beautiful. In our own buildings, our envoys even get soaked by the rains. They are always moving their desks from one corner to the other. Imagine these are envoys we are talking about!

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: No! This must stop, Hon. Minister.

Madam Chairperson, finally, I would like to put it through the Chair that sometimes as Minister of Foreign Affairs, you should be able to address the nation and update us on what is happening in terms of our current position with regard to the proposed United States of Africa. What is our position as a country? You have not come out in the open.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Are you in favour of the United States of Africa arrangement or not?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I recall when Hon. Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha and Hon. Dr Mwansa used to be there, they used to update us on the importance of our groups such as the Southern African Development Community (SADC), Common Market for East and Southern Africa (COMESA) so that we know the benefit that we derive from these groupings as a nation. Can you update us, please, hon. Minister? If I asked you to go to my mother at the village and asked a simple question about the meaning of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD), they would tell you that they do not know this animal. Likewise amongst us, some do not know the meaning of NEPAD.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muntanga: Is your mother still there?

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Thank you, Madam Chairperson. I will be very brief.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Madam, thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice and support to that of the others on the Vote for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Suffice to state that, in my local language, they say, “Ifya kulya ubushiku fitulikila kumalushi.”

Hon. Opposition Member: Bebe!

Mr Kambwili: This means that when you do things in secrecy, they will be exposed at the least time you expect them to be exposed. The appointment of cadres to foreign missions can be seen in the number of incedences of misappropriation of public funds in the respective embassies.

Mr Nsanda: Mozambique!

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Kambwili: This is the worst experience, since independence, of misappropriation of money at the Zambian missions abroad. The reason is simple. There are too many cadres.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Five years ago, we spent money to train diplomats and most of them are just roaming the streets, and yet a cadre from Luanshya is picked and sent to a foreign mission. These cadres are hungry people.

Mr Muntanga: Yes!

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Every opportunity to get cash in their pockets, they will do it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We know how we are mobbed, as Members of Parliament, by these cadres whenever we go to our constituencies. Now, you take such a cadre …

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: …to go and look after Government money in a foreign land, in foreign exchange for that matter, which he or she never saw from the time of birth and you expect them to account for that money. You must be cheating yourselves.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Make use of those …

The Chairperson: Order! Can you withdraw the word “cheating” because it is unparliamentary.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I withdraw the word “cheating” and replace it with the word “deceiving.”

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Hammer!

Mr Kambwili: These people must be cadres to sing at the airport when the President is coming and going …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … and not to undertake foreign work. No wonder we have not attracted any reasonable foreign investors. What do you expect from a person like Matatiyo to do?

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: From Kabompo!

Mr Kambwili: This Matatiyo is making noise all over …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Order! It is not allowed in this House to debate individuals who may not be here to defend themselves in that manner. It does not manner who they are. Debate the issue in general. Do not bring in the actual individuals in your debate.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance.

However, the point I am trying to drive home is that we should avoid paying cadres by sending them to our foreign missions. They are messing us up big time. No wonder they have started writing articles in the newspapers abroad, and saying it is their personal opinion.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: How do you express a personal opinion when you are representing your Government? That is being irresponsible.

Mr Muntanga: Lay them on the Table!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we do agree that the President can also send relatives to foreign mission, as long as they are able to perform. However, too much of one thing is very bad. We must check this idea of sending more than five or six relatives to the foreign missions in the name of the President.

Hon. Opposition Member: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Muntanga: Induluka, mwana, induluka!

Mr Kambwili: There are many Zambians who would want to take up responsibility in these missions and yet, more often than not, the relatives of the President are the ones who are sent to these missions.

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, that is very specific. The House would want a little more information when you mention these relatives.

Interruptions

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri: Name them!

The Chairperson: Unless you have clear evidence and the relationships of those individuals.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: You many not debate them.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, it is common knowledge that the two Mokolas in the foreign missions are related in the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: There is no doubt about that. Therefore, I also have evidence to show Mapushi’s wife is related to the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: When I talk, I do so with facts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The issue of the President appointing diplomats must also be checked because it is giving this hon. Minister a lot of problems supervising these people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: When they are appointed by the President and the hon. Minister is also appointed by the President, it is extremely difficult to discipline them.

Ms Mumbi: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, you saw in the recent past where one hon. Minister wrote directly to the Anti-Corruption Commission over some individual in one ministry and the President said you should have written to me first.

Ms Mumbi: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: It is a problem when the President makes all appointments himself because supervisors find it very difficult to supervise people who are appointed by the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, …

Mr Muntanga: Supply more information.

Mr Kambwili: … the issue of visas to the United Kingdom and America leaves much to be desired. What is the Ministry doing to assist Zambians, who cry openly at the British and American Embassies when they are denied visas? It is easy for the Americans and British to come to Zambia, but it is extremely difficult for Zambians to obtain visas at their embassies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we have allowed a situation where the cost or the non-refundable fee for a visa at the British Embassy is over K1 million, and yet they know that out of twenty people who apply, maybe only two will be accepted. That is obtaining money by false pretence.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, if you know that you cannot give people visas, then do not ask for a non-refundable fee. Do not ask for this fee because you know that it is difficult for your country to allow Zambians to go to your country. Therefore, ask for a very small figure because, in my view, that is being interpreted as a way of raising money indirectly from the poor Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs must help the Zambians by engaging the British and American Embassies to sort out this problem. Even people who are genuinely going there for education purposes are being denied visas, and yet we are seeing 648 Indians allowed to work at a smelter at Konkola Copper Mines Plc. This is sad, indeed.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we have seen Chinese labourers coming to Zambia so easily.

Hon. Opposition Members: Prisoners.

Mr Kambwili: The ratio of people working at Chambeshi Smelter is 1 to 1, Zambians and Chinese, and yet our people cannot get visas to these countries. Hon. Minister, I am urging you to seriously address this matter so that Zambians can also visit and probably stay in these countries the way our friends come to live in our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Fast forward.

Mr Kambwili: I would also like a comment from the hon. Minister, it is now almost four years since one Zambian was extraordinary extradited to America on an allegation of being involved in terrorism.

Hon. Opposition Member: Mubanga.

Mr Kambwili: The country has not been told the fate of Mubanga. These are issues that we expect the Ministry to be involved in. When an American is extradited or taken to another country, the American Government takes interest in the matter. Hon. Minister, let us also take interest in the Zambians who are wallowing in a lot of problems in foreign countries.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Matongo (Pemba): I thank you, Madam Chairperson, for giving me an opportunity to speak on this very important Ministry. In more civilised countries, it is from this Ministry, Finance and National Planning, Ministry of Home Affairs and Ministry of Defence that leaderships emanate from. We have not reached there yet, but we are striving for our generation to get there.

I wish to compliment my humble friend, the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs for assuming that Ministry. I like to call this Ministry International Co-operation, for that is what it is. Having read his ministerial statement for yesterday and today, I am very grateful for the foresight he has presented. However, he needs to be guided by people who have seen it all. He needs to be helped to succeed. For only one person cannot succeed. At the hardest times of political power in this country in 1967, 1968 and 1969, we had tough-tested hon. Ministers of Foreign Affairs, the late Kapwepwe, late Kamanga and a still surviving Mr Mudenda. Political influence in appointments as one of my colleagues across, who is as experienced as I am, has acknowledged because he was there need to be handled carefully. We need to stop it cautiously because at the time political appointments were made, we did not have people from every district of Zambia with the sort of expertise, experience and education required to qualify to be ambassador.

My friend hon. Minister, we will stand by you because we know the pressure you go through, but, please, scream quietly when you are put under pressure. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a hallmark of good neighbourliness. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a starting point of international politics, in terms of international trade and co-operation. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is a showcase of what a country is.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Matongo: Yes, going backwards, we were the number one country in this region in foreign relations because there were liberation wars. These are now over. However, contacts through TICAD, the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD) and other international organisations must be maintained. For now, it is economic relationships that should dictate our Foreign Policy and our relationship with the people outside Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that it is a good thing that the hon. Minister has considered opening missions in South America. It is a good thing that in the Far East there is Malaysia on board. I would like to add here the Benlot States need a mission and we need to reinstate our Embassy or High Commission with Canberra, Australia. Those who may not know what Benlot States are, may wish to understand that we get  …

Hon. Government Member: We know.

Mr Matongo: You do not know. … a lot of aid from New Zealand and Australia. Yes, Malaysia is good and they have developed their economy through the equivalent of National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA), Provident Fund, which we had, but used our money for other things. I would like to state that it is a good idea. I do hope that the Middle-East, not Cairo, because I like to believe Africa is culture diverse, emerging economies or Qatar and others need our representation. That is where trade, without strings, will come from and I think we should move along those lines. We need to strengthen our presence and influence of peaceful co-existence, which we did with Smith and others in hot spots of the near Far East. Those new states carved out of the Soviet Union are very rich in gas and oil and very revolutionary. We need to continue their revolution. Hon. Minister, please, look at that. At least beef-up the staff in the Soviet Union Mission.

Having stated that, I also would like the hon. Minister to know that without seriously implementing the Foreign Policy that his two predecessors announced here and that took nearly forty-two years to be brought here, we will be getting nowhere. That policy is very clear. First it was the hon. Minister, Dr Kalombo Mwansa, who brought it here and later reaffirmed by the hon. Minister, Mr Mundia Sikatana. Yes, I am aware that a few paragraphs have been added thereto so as to strengthen the policy by making it more economic rather than basing it on good neighbourliness per se.

No more going begging on bended knees to the Cape in South Africa for relief food, but show that we produce products that we can sell. This is good because the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is promoting fair trade, with his good friend the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. It is the combination of these forces, the Ministries of Foreign Affairs and Commerce, Trade and Industry, under the leadership of the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, that we need when it comes to dealing with the Ministers of the Commonwealth, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. Therefore, the hon. Minister should take charge.

This country does not need to be dictated to and told that our international relations will suffer, just because we are right in trying to charge somebody income tax. Who says that? I ask those who think that way, when they were last asked what Pay-As-You-Earn they are paying in their own countries. I hope the hon. Minister sees the role that his Ministry has to play in the new mining taxation regime. I have very little confidence and minimum trust in some of our representatives articulating this to these ballroom boys, some of them Zambian, who want to tell us that we will spoil our international reputation. Zambia’s international reputation has been founded on peace and co-existence of all tribes and peoples. It cannot be spoiled by the hon. Minister correctly trying to do his job by bringing the issue here to back his revenue measures. That is all we need. We do not know about development agreements. That is outside our privilege. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is very cardinal in ensuring that they do not succeed. Yes, a few years ago, we had some Government which, by their act, spoiled our international relations. We must forget about that and let the good things happen.

Madam Chairperson, I do not want to discuss persons and characteristics. I would like to state this very clearly. We should have a strong foundation in Washington DC of well skilled diplomats on economic and financial matters. In Tokyo, we need well skilled, trained and clear thinking financial wizards and economic thinkers. Then we do not have to send the hon. Minister all over the shore because they will deal with the world. It is the same for Addis Abba and Belgium. To some extent, our mission in Pretoria is not a retirement mission.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: It must be a productive one. We need diplomats of skilled understanding of which way we are going.

Mr Muntanga: Lay him on the Table.

Mr Matongo: Well, the President is free to appoint anybody he wishes and the Constitution guarantees that, but his advisors must always remind him what is important to this country. We need not even worry about who goes to Malawi or Zimbabwe because they are our brothers. We can even send some of the older ones there because they will meet their old friends. However, in the economic missions, I have mentioned, there is a need for people who may not be liked because of the power of their economic analysis and understanding of international relations. I would like to believe that when President Mwanawasa is told the correct thing, he will do just that.

Well, you see, some people worry about relatives. He really does not have too many relatives, I would like to believe. Ten years in power, I am sure all of them have gone out there and are retired. However, I would like my hon. Young Brother, who has gone out of the Chamber, to mention some specific issues. Now, if we need to favour some relatives of Hon. David Matongo or anybody for that matter, we should be able to help. There are some desolate people who were generals in the Zambia Army, but could not make it outside that job. I know one, whom I will mention because I respect him a lot; General Chinkuli. He could not simply make it because he spent his time reorganising the Zambia Army here and forgot about his farms. Surely, we need to help such people and I think Hon. Dr Machungwa …

Laughter

Mr Matongo: … will also understand why we need to do those things. But they should not be given missions that are of economic importance.

Madam Chairperson, …

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Matongo: Ok, mulamu, go ahead.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: Madam Chairperson, I enjoy the debate of Hon. Matongo and he is debating so well and hitting the nail home, but is he really in order to say that I would encourage incompetence in the name of family by allowing a country to be represented by people who may not perform? Is he in order to think for me when I am not thinking like that?

The Chairperson: Dr Machungwa is concerned by the debate of Hon. Matongo that, in his debate, he alleges that Dr Machungwa condones incompetence and says that is not his line of thinking. The Chair would like to guide that whatever relationship is between Hon. Matongo and Hon. Dr Machungwa is unknown to the Chair and, therefore, only the two of them would understand why Hon. Matongo should think on behalf of Hon. Dr Machungwa …

Laughter

The Chairperson: … and make such a conclusion.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Matongo: Madam, I am grateful that all hon. Members in the House do agree with the things that I am saying. All we are saying is that we should have a proper replacement program to energise our embassies and missions with people who understand international relations, globalisation, financial analysis and economic development of which my hon. Friend, who raised a point of order, agrees with me. Unfortunately, it has to be gradual, but there must be a time scale to allay this practice. I have said that no one President would want to have a representative who is incompetent. I would be very surprised if the Cabinet’s appointing authority is of that mould. Then he would not have appointed our colleagues. I would like to believe that Heads of State want to be told the facts as they are on the ground such as this cadre is very good because eventually we are all cadres. This cadre is good and is reformed and must proceed, but this one, no. You can send him to some place to be District Commissioner. Even for that, we are fighting for educated ones.

Finally, hon. Minister, …

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Matongo: Yes, who are educated and brilliant.

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Matongo: Please, save us with one little thing. We would like to hear about what happens internationally. Sometimes this idea of not enlightening us on the issues that are happening internationally raises ministerial statements at will, as some hon. Member who is sitting there used to do. I am not making comparisons, but I know that you are capable of handling public relations. We want ministerial statements about Addis Ababa and elsewhere.

I thank you, Madam.

The Deputy Minister for Northern Province (Mr Chibombamilimo): Madam Chair, in the first place, allow me to water down some of the points that were raised by a Member of Parliament from the Opposition.

Mr Muntanga: Which Opposite?

Mr Chibombamilimo: Madam, all of us here are related in one way or the other. I come from the Northern Province, therefore, I could have a relation from the North-Western or Western Provinces. If I happen to be the President and that relation is educated, there is nothing wrong in my appointing him hon. Minister or High Commissioner. There is no President in this country, starting from 1964 to date, who has not appointed a person who is related to him, including hon. Ministers.

In the United States of America, I can give an example of John F. Kennedy who appointed his brother Attorney-General.

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Madam!

Mr Chibombamilimo: There is no point of order here.

A British Prime Minister by the name of Leonard James Callaghan and popularly known as Son Jimmy also appointed his son-in-law to the United Nations. Some hon. Ministers in the Chiluba Government appointed some people I do not want mention to positions of managing director. There is no way you cannot appoint somebody who is qualified simply because he is a relation.

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point or order is raised. Order, hon. Deputy Minister.

I think this issue of points of order has been made very clear. The hon. Member can raise the point of order only if it is on procedure. If it is a debatable issue, that is why there is the opportunity to debate. When one side raises issues, the other side has to clarify them. I hope that it is a point of order on procedure, not on the issue substantively because if it is you need only debate it.

Mr Mukanga: Madam, is the hon. Minister, who is debating in the manner he is, in order to encourage nepotism in this country and in this House, and yet it is against the beliefs and norms of the operations of this House? I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The Chair listening to the debates on this Vote this afternoon would like to guide that the issues that were raised on my left are being responded to by people on my right. Some of them are not necessarily contradictory. I think the point being made cannot suffice to be nepotism. This is very important. The clarification from the hon. Minister to the Chair does not sound like nepotism. It sounds like a right to employment or appointment to positions.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: I think this point was made very clearly by the people on my left where it was clearly stated that if one is qualified, then he is capable of being appointed.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Chibombamilimo: Madam, before business was suspended and prior to the point of order, I was saying even Dr Kaunda appointed his son, Wezi, to the position of Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Home Affairs. This has been happening and we will continue doing it for as long as the people who are being appointed are qualified.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chibombamilimo: I was in Dr Kaunda’s and Dr Chiluba’s Governments, and am now in Dr Mwanawasa’s Government. I know a lot. Therefore, if I had to lay the facts bare here, it could cost the lives of many people.

Laughter

Mr Chibombamilimo: Madam Chairperson, one item under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that features prominently is tourism promotion in collaboration with economic co-operation. This is a reflection of the Government’s orientation of its Foreign Policy on economic development. In a number of missions, we now have, among the staff, professionals in the field of economics whose contribution to economic development is critical.

Madam Chairperson, at one point in the history of this country, our Foreign Policy was more political than economic, as we fought to help liberate the African Continent from foreign rule. However, as a Government, we have read the whims going across the glob with its emphasis on business and economics. We have, therefore, revised our engagement in international relations so that we do not remain marginalised in the global scene.

We have identified areas of the economy where we have a comparative advantage. Tourism is one sector where we are competitive. However, the sector remains largely unexploited, thereby requiring efforts at various levels of the Government to push the sector to a level where the country could begin to benefit from its potential.

Madam Chairperson, the Budget indicates that in a number of our foreign missions, activities related to tourism will be carried out. We can assure the nation that if we pulled together the material and intellectual resources of our diplomatic officers, we would unlock the economic capability of our untapped tourism potential.

Madam Chairperson, the diplomatic missions that some people might have associated with the elitists who merely drank tea and coffee in their offices should now be seen as the major players in the fight against poverty here at home.

Madam Chairperson, my office is open to officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs so that we may share promotion material. As you may know by now, the Northern Province is one of the provinces in the country endowed with amazing sites for tourism. I look forward to a day when my officials will be visitors to our foreign missions to meet with tour operators to explain what we have to offer.

I thank you, Madam.

The Minister of Foreign Affairs (Mr Pande): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank all who have debated and contributed to this Motion. I would like to thank Hon. Muyanda for his contribution.

Madam Chairperson, at least three hon. Members referred to the appointment of cardres. I would like to say that Hon. Matongo answered that one when he indicated that all of us are cadres.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande:  You have to ask who a cadre is.

Mr V. M. Mwale: Like Kambwili.

Mr Pande: I think that what we should be concerned or worried about is the calibre of the cadre. I can assure you that this Government, through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, is not going to entertain mediocrity in the Foreign Service. Some of the people we may perceive to be cadres are people who are performing very well in these missions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, the mission in South Africa was mentioned in relation to it not being a mission for retirees. I can say here that one of the best Ambassador or High Commissioner performers that I have is the one in South Africa. One gets satisfied to look at his reports. They are not the type of reports that Hon. Kasongo referred to. To that effect, Hon. Kasongo, something is being done. We now scrutinise all the reports that are sent. Those that we feel are not in conformity with what we expect are sent back and we indicate why they have been sent back.

I would like to thank Hon. Kasongo for the kind words. For me or any of my colleagues to perform, we need your support, constructive criticism and constructive guidance. That is why we are here. Ours are not personal offices, but for Zambians. Therefore, we are ready to listen to any constructive criticism from any well meaning Zambian.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kasongo and Hon. Matongo referred to issues of ministerial statements. I can assure them that they will be informed when the need to be informed arises.

Hon. Kambwili referred to the highest misappropriation of funds since independence. I think we have to get this correct. Currently, there is transparency in the Government. This brings out the discrepancies or misappropriation to the fore so that what is happening can be seen. This was never done by other administrations and, therefore, we are not able to make a learned comparison.

Mr Kambwili: They never used to steal in Kaunda’s Government.

Mr Pande: Hon. Kambwili referred to the issue of visas. The Government has concern for the Zambians. That is why we monitor all the Zambians who are arrested and follow what is happening to them.

On the issue of Mubanga, let this House and the nation know that he had dual citizenship. We are fully aware that according to the Constitution of Zambia, one cannot have dual citizenship. Mubanga is now released. After being released, he has sued the British Government for letting him be arrested. Therefore, the interpretation is that he considers himself more of a British than a Zambian because he is saying to the British Government that “you are my country and you did not protect me.” That is the position. We should raise issues when we know what the facts are.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Matongo, my good big brother was pushing an open door when he indicated that we need to open the missions in Canberra and the Middle East. This Government has on the drawing board in the coming years Canberra and the Middle East as some of the areas where we are considering opening up missions.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to thank Hon. Chibombamilimo who had debated so well and explained the issue of …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Pande: … appointing relatives.

Hon. Government Member: Mwaumfwafye jealous.

Mr Pande: We must be genuine, hon. Members, we say the President appoints relatives, but he is a Zambian and those relatives are Zambians. Like I indicated, the question should be whether or not they are capable. We should not deny the President or, indeed, any body the right to appoint people who are qualified.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 17/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

 VOTE 17/03 (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Washington – K7,024,511,879).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration, K222,181,794. Last year, it was allocated K2.6 billion, but there has been a reduction to K222 million. I am wondering what has prompted this and how this office is going to operate. On the same Programme 2, Activity 02 – HIV/AIDS Mitigation has no provision and yet last year, there was K15 million. I am wondering why it should be like this when we are still fighting HIV/AIDS.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration, K222,181,792, the utility funds in last year’s Budget were combined in the General Administration line, but they have been separated this year.

Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 03 – HIV/AIDS, K222,181,792, we saw that the campaign that was done last year was enough in the production of materials. Therefore, there is no need for that this year.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, in our debates, we have just been emphasising the need to attract foreign investment. May I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Political and Economic Relations, K31,560,538. Why has this reduced from a K101,676,569 budget provision for last year to K31,560,538 this year? What is the reason for this drastic reduction?

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Political and Economic Relations, K31,560,538, reduced from a K101,676,569 budget provision for last year because we need to consolidate them instead of spreading them. It is like marketing. When you are marketing, you have to target a specific market segment for you to get better results. Therefore, we have reduced this amount this year so that we consolidate what we targeted last year.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 17/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/04 (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – New York – K7,466,373,117).

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 04 – Utility Bills, K253,877,671. Last year, there was no provision. Were there no bills last year, if so, where will the bills come from this year? How come there was no provision previously because bills are supposed to be incurred every year?

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 04 – Utility Bills, K253,877,671, you will notice that we have removed the amounts from General Administration and put utility separately. That is why this is appearing as a new budget line.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 02 – Head of Missions Conference, K14,606,049, has been budgeted for in all the missions while there was no provision in last year’s budget.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 02 – Head of Missions Conference, K14,606,049, Hon. Kasongo, in his debate, talked about letting these people we are sending in foreign missions understand what their roles are. Therefore, we are calling them for a conference this year so that we realign them, or whatever term you may use, to understand that we are now focussing on economic activities. That is the amount which will be spent. The amounts that are appearing under the individual missions are meant for their transport to Lusaka.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II, K17,391,984. Why has it reduced from the K19,144,632 budget provision for last year? Have they fired some people or are they going to have reduced salaries?

Mr Panda: Madam Chairperson, we have not fired anybody but what has happened is that one officer has moved to the higher grade which is Division One.

I thank you, Madam

Vote 17/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/06 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – London – K9,593,478,887).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 1 – Personal Emoluments, Activity 01 and 02, Salaries Division I and II. The actual salaries for the mission in London add up to only K511,434,272 and Other Emoluments total K8,421,992,505. Why is it that the Other Emoluments are more than twelve times the actual salaries?

Madam, secondly, I also seek clarification on Programme 7, Activity 02 – Tourism Promotion, K19,518,800. The President’s Address talked about how important tourism promotion is particularly, in the year 2008. Could I find out why the Budget is contradicting the Policy Statement of the President, and yet there is a reduction from K27,097,394 that was allocated last year to the K19,518,800 for Tourism Promotion this year through our mission in London?

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, Other Emoluments include allowances which were supposed to have been paid last year and I could quickly run through these allowances. These are cash in-lieu of leave, retention allowance, travelling on leave, representation allowance, cost of living allowance, entertainment allowance, housing allowance and education allowance. That is what we are paying this year.

Madam, on the issue of tourism, Hon. Lubinda is fully aware that we are just augmenting the efforts of the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. They are the ones who have budgeted more for this and then there is the Zambia National Tourist Board. This is just an augmentation by the mission in London.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Chairperson, Programme 2, Activity 05 – Utility Bills, there was no provision last year and now there is a provision of K82,038,163. May I find out the composition of this expenditure?

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair will not allow that because that question has already been asked and the hon. Minister has clarified it.

Vote 17/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/07 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Cairo – K4,641,508,614).

Mr Kasoko: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 03 – HIV/AIDS Mitigation because last year, K34,061,192 was allocated and this year, there is nothing. Does it mean that incidences of HIV/AIDS no longer exist?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, the purpose of asking in this House and the clarifications of the hon. Ministers are meant for each one of us not to ask the same questions under different heads. When the answer is given generally, then we should move on. That question was asked just a few minutes ago.

Vote 17/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
 
VOTE 17/08 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Mission Abroad – Nairobi – K4,027,102,680).

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 7 because there was supposed to be Tourism Promotion. In Nairobi, we were supposed to have Tourism Promotion because that is where most of the tourists come from. Why is it missing under Nairobi and is provided for in London and New York.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, when we are allocating resources, we look at the benefits of spending those resources. For New York and places that have been mentioned, that is where the tourists come from. It is wrong to say that tourists come from Nairobi. Actually, to correct the hon. Member, outside Africa, most of the tourists to Zambia come from United Kingdom. In Africa, they come from South Africa, in that order.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 17/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/15 ─ (Ministry of Foreign Affairs ─ Missions Abroad ─ Beijing ─ K4,763,407,835).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I wish to seek clarification on Programme 7, Activity 02 – Tourism Promotion. When I asked the question about London, I got a very clear answer. However, I wonder why our new best friend, allocated K35 million for Tourism Promotion last year, but has not allocated any money thereto this year. Does this mean that our friends from China will come to Zambia just to follow their relatives without us promoting Zambia’s tourism in China?

Laughter

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 02 – Tourism Promotion, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural resources spent a lot of efforts promoting tourism in China, including having the Zambia National Tourist Board (ZNTB) put up some road shows there. We feel that we should wait and see the results of those efforts that were made last year before we continue this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 17/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/33 – (Ministry of Foreign Affair Missions Abroad – Pretoria – K6,300,942,106).

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 02 – Tourism Promotion, K2,863,085. The hon. Minister has said that most tourists in Africa come from Pretoria. I am, therefore, wondering what the K2,863,085 will do to enhance tourism in Zambia compared to the K40,000,000 which was allocated last year. I need clarification from the hon. Minister.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, Indeed, I had indicated that most of the tourists in Africa come through South Africa. As a result, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has budgeted for that. Already, there are programmes for trade shows called “The Indaba”. With that in mind, since there will be tourism promotion by the ministry concerned, the K2,863,085 is intended for the officer to run around in going to the show.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 17/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/35 –ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/38 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/39 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs - Zambia Mine Action Centre – K812,056,880).

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 07 – Deployment of Deminers along the Cordon Line, Nil. I would like the hon. Minister to confirm that there is no need of having deminers because the place is safe.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, it is not showing in the Budget because the UNDP have taken up the course for that activity.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 17/39  ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/41 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Protocol Department – K1,197,250,783).

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we have been lamenting the point of giving welfare to our employees as a way of motivating them, but I am surprised that under Programme 2, Activity 07, there is Nil. May I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 07 – Staff Welfare, Nil. Last year there was a provision of K30,000,000 for Staff Welfare, but this year there is nothing.

Further, on Programme 2, Activity 09 – Registration of New Arrived Diplomats, there is also Nil. Does this mean that we do not anticipate receiving new diplomats?

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, the allocation on Staff Welfare for loans and Protocol is one of the departments and has very few staff. Therefore, the loans that they got have to be repaid this year. We cannot provide them with other loans. Besides, others loans have been budgeted for by the Headquarters under Human Resources.

Madam Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 09 – Registration of New Arrived Diplomats, there is Nil because this has been provided under Programme 7 – Protocol Services.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Mwila (Chipili) Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 10 – Presentation of Credentials. Last year, there was K3,258,000 allocated thereto, but nothing has been allocated in this year’s Budget.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, this has also been provided for under Programme 7, - Protocol Services.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 17/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 17/42 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Political Affairs Department – K1,53,467,248).

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, – Activity 05 – Lobbying, Nil. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether we have stopped lobbying for our relations between Zambia and the European Union Countries.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 05 – Lobbying - Nil, we felt that we did a lot of lobbying last year. Therefore, there is no need to lobby this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili: Aah! Question!

Hon. Government Member: What question!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 04 – Lobbying – Nil, for the African Region and in the Middle East. This year, we have nothing provided for these activities in the Budget whilst last year it was provided for with K2.1 billion. I wonder whether you do not expect any lobbying and that is why you have not provided anything. Suppose Zambians in international companies out there want to take up those positions, what budget are you going to use?

Madam, the other clarification is on Programme 7, Activity 03 – Attend JPCs with countries in the America’s and Caribbean Region, K1,929,616. Last year, we had a budget of K17,624,477, but this year, we have K1,929,616. What is this K1,929,616 meant for or are we just trying to provide a Budget line?

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 04 – Lobbying, there is Nil because when you engage in lobbying there must be an issue of what you are lobbying for. Some of the activities do not mean that we will not be able to interact with these foreign missions this year. That is why we have these missions. However, for the past year, we had specific issues to lobby for. For example, there was the matter of Ms Inonge Mbikusita Lewanika issue and other issues at the African Union. This year, these are not there. Therefore, we will continue, as usual, to interact with foreign countries, using our missions.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 17/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 17/49 – (Ministry of Foreign Affairs – Great Lakes Region – K673,255,597).

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments, K16,072,430. Last year, we budgeted for K148,286,829 and this year, we have budgeted for K16 million, I would like to find out why there is a big reduction.

Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration, K194,320,495. There is a huge increase there. Last year, we budgeted for K57,600,013 and this year, it has gone up to K194.3 million.

Lastly, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 01 – Awareness Campaigns through the Media, K6,212,935. Last year, we budgeted for K19.3 million and this year, there is a huge reduction to K6.2 million. I need a clarification on this.

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments, K16,072,430, the decrease is due to the transfer to leave benefits and housing allowances from the Department to the Headquarters and finance respectively.

Madam, on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration, KK194,320,495, the increase is due to increased number of activities, for example, the establishment on servicing the Regional Centre FOR Democracy and Good Governance, Human Rights and Civil Education.

On Programme 10, Activity 01 – Awareness Campaigns through the Media, K6,212,935, on campaign, most of the activities were carried out last year therefore, we had to slow down this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, I am aware of the fact that the Great Lakes Region still has a lot of problems of refugees and displaced people. I am surprised to find that on Programme 11, Activity 01 – Sensitisation, Verification, Integration and Repatriation of Refugees and Internally Displaced People, there is Nil. Last year, we provided K4,528,706 thereto. Could the hon. Minister explain why we have not provided anything when that problem is still on-going?

Mr Pande: Madam Chairperson, Programme 11, Activity 01 – Sensitisation, Verification, Integration and Repatriation of Refugees and Internally Displaced People, we did not provide for it this year.

I thank you, Madam.

Laughter

Vote 17/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 17/50 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 14/01 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K42,193,263,246).

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Dr Mwansa): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to address the House on Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for 2008 fiscal year.

Madam, allow me to begin by thanking the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for presenting a Budget that balances the interests of the Zambian people and of the investors in our economy in general, and the mining sector in particular.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: My address will cover the following subjects:

(i) new regulatory regime for mining sector;

(ii) strengthening the Geological Survey Department;

(iii) monitoring mining operations; and

(iv) safety health and environment policy.

New Regulatory Regime for Mining Industry

Madam Chairperson, the mission statement for my ministry is to:

“formulate, implement, monitor and evaluate policy on the exploration development exploitation and down stream processing or mineral resources in the country in a safe economic and sustainable manner for optimum benefit of the Zambian people.”

Accordingly, in 2007 we witnessed significant strides by the Ministry in improving the regulatory framework and general investment climate to ensure that the movement of the mining industry remained the anchor of our economic development.

In this regard, major achievement during the year 2007 included the completion of a stakeholder consultative view on the 1995 Mining Policy and Mines and Minerals Act. The last consultative workshop which took place at the end of November, 2007 on the view of the Act was well attended by all stakeholders, including Members of this august House and there were two traditional rulers from the House of Chiefs.

I wish to record my appreciation to the Members of Parliament and other stakeholders who participated in the workshop for their valuable contributions that made it possible for the Government to quickly prepare a Bill that will be brought to the House this year.

Another notable achievement in our reform effort is the preparation of craft mining and cadastre regulations and uranium regulations. The cadastre regulations will provide for the efficient administration of mining rights in the country. The uranium regulations will guide the mining, transportation handling, storage and trade of uranium and other radio-active materials or minerals, in line with best international practices which are monitored by the United Nations, through the International Atomic Energy Agency (IEA). Both sets of regulations will be published in two separate statutory instruments so that they become subsidiary legislation to the Mines and Minerals Act in the course of this year.

Madam Chairperson, the Government further initiated the review of the Petroleum Exploration and Production Act of 1985. The review was a critical state in setting the stage for inviting the private sector to participate in the exploration of oil and gas. The tendering process to invite companies to submit bids will commence after the Petroleum (Exploration and Production) Act has been repealed and replaced. This Act, in its current form, is inadequate for securing national interests in the expected development in the petroleum industry. It requires updating and a Bill is being prepared for presentation to this august House in the course of this year.

Madam Chairperson, I should add that we are improving the regulatory regime to augment the three factors that, among others, are attracting investment to this country namely;

(a) peace and economic stability;

(b) good policies which are consistent and predictable; and

(c) commitment to the rule of law.

The new regulatory framework will provide sufficient protection and rights for all those investing in the Zambian mining sector. It will also provide for all requirements and incentives for doing business and will, thus, remove any need for discretion and special agreements with any investor.

The framework will, among others, have a computerised mining cadastre system which will provide the following benefits:

(i) fairness in the granting of mining rights by ensuring that the principle of first-come-first-served is applied;

(ii) guaranteed exclusivity of mineral title, exclusion of all others;

(iii) elimination of possible overlaps of mining rights because free areas will be identified;

(iv) availability of facilities for full history of licence life-cycle and for auditing and tracking of actions;

(v) accurate records about the status of mining rights in Zambia will be maintained, thus guaranteeing investment security and assuring the Government’s commitment to promoting the development of the mining sector to its full potential; and

(vi) generation of full and accurate management reports that will enable the Government to properly enforce the requirements of the mining law.

Madam Chairperson, let me now address the strengthening of the Geological Survey Department.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry is committed to strengthening the Geological Survey Department because the services provided by this Department form the foundation for future growth of the mining industry and the possible development of the petroleum industry in Zambia. The commitment is reflected in the proposed Ministry budget for this year 2008.

The proposed budget for the Ministry has increased by 61 per cent from K26.2 billion in 2007 to K42.2 billion in 2008. The bulk of these resources are earmarked for the Geological Survey Department. Nearly half of the Ministry’s allocation, specifically K17.1 billion, would go to this Department.

Laboratory rehabilitation and purchase of equipment at the Geological Survey Department will require an expenditure of K3.5 billion as proposed in the Budget. This will minimise the number of samples to be sent out of the country for analysis.

Madam Chairperson, you may wish to know that Zambia has a vast potential for further mineral exploration, as about 45 per cent of the country is yet to be geologically surveyed and covered by geological maps at a scale of 1:100,000. These maps enable private companies to engage in detailed prospecting work with a view to developing new mines.

Geological mapping for the Luapula and Northern provinces would take K1.7 billion of the resources, to cover purchase of four-field vehicles, fuel, survey and mapping materials and staff expenses. The geological potential of these two provinces is virtually unknown.

The proposed allocation for geological mapping is for carrying out additional work because in 2007, data collection was completed in Mwense District and preparation of geological maps and reports for the area is in progress. Besides, the Geological Survey Department commenced mapping of Samfya District in 2007. In addition, the Department, working with the Japanese International Cooperation Agency (JAICA), started in August 2007 mapping a stretch from Kasama to Mpika in the Northern Province. For this stretch, field work that included soil sampling on two degree-sheet areas was completed at the end of 2007.

Madam Chairperson, the Ministry has made significant progress in exploration for oil and gas in three provinces namely; North-Western, Eastern and Western provinces. The results of the microbial analysis of soil samples collected from these provinces are very encouraging. We are now in the process of inviting bids from interested exploration companies to determine the quantities and types of the oil and gas in these areas. So far, the prospective areas in the North-Western Province have been demarcated into sixteen blocks with a size range of 900 to 1,600 square kilometres per block. Plans are under way to demarcate promising areas in Lukulu, Kalabo and Mongu in the Western Province for further exploration work to determine oil and gas types of quantity, quality and size of the deposits.

The programme for petroleum exploration in 2008 will extend to areas in the Central, Luapula and Southern Provinces which have geological features similar to the areas already covered in the North-Western, Eastern and Western Provinces. The work programme will include in-fill sampling and analysis of data to improve understanding of the areas already surveyed for oil and gas. The petroleum exploration, therefore, needs K5 billion, indicated in the estimates of expenditure for 2008, to cover the cost of sampling and sample analysis, seismic surveys of target areas and exploration drilling.

Monitoring mining operations

Madam Chairperson, considering that the mining industry has grown over the years, there is a need to restructure the Ministry so that it responds to the needs of the industry more efficiently. We will make progress in earnest this year by carrying forward the work commenced in 2007 of restructuring the Ministry. Last year, with the help of Cabinet Office, we completed the performance audit of the Ministry as the first step to updating the strategic plan and eventually restructuring the ministry. We want to restructure the Ministry to urgently create a Planning and Information Department. Presently, we do not have a planning department to collect and analyse statistics about the mining industry. For this work, we depend on members of staff who have other demanding duties.

The three technical departments under my ministry, namely: Geological Survey Department, Mines Development Department and Mines Safety Department, will require strengthening in order to cope with the increase in exploration and mining activities countrywide.

One other issue that requires close monitoring is safety in the mines. The restructuring processing will include the re-organisation of the Mines Safety Department and its staffing levels. We want this Department further strengthened and highly proactive in accident prevention. We are delighted that the Department has intensified mines safety inspections. We are also pleased with the resultant downward trend in mine fatal accidents. Records show a decline of fatalities from eighteen in 2006 to fourteen in 2007. However, more needs to be done to make the mines much safer places to work in, hence the need to include the Mines Safety Department in the restructuring of the Ministry.

Health, safety and environmental policy

Madam Chairperson, our country has never had a stand-alone safety, health and environment policy. We want to address safety in the mines more comprehensively as well as issues related to environmental protection and pollution control. In this regard, we will be formulating a policy on safety, health and environment. The policy will encompass international best practices concerning mines safety. The safety, health and environment policy will enhance monitoring systems to improve health and safety. The policy will also promote environmentally sustainable mining practices. We have proposed a provision of K200 million for this activity in the 2008 Budget.

Madam Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to say that prospects for further growth of the mining industry for 2008 are bright. The performance of the mining sector in 2008 is expected to improve due to anticipated commencement of commercial production at the Lumwana Copper Mine, Munali Hills Nickel Mine, Muliashi Copper Mines and Konkola North Mine. Copper processing facilities are expected to increase with the commencement of production at Chambeshi Copper Smelter and Konkola Copper Mines Smelter in Chingola.

Zambia has promising sites for uranium mining. The Lumwana area in the Northern Province, where Equinox is developing a mine, is one such site. Equinox is advancing its preparation for a feasibility study for uranium mining in the area. Other companies that are prospecting for uranium include, Albidon and Omega Corporation. Albidon, in partnership with African Energy Resources, is examining two promising sites at Chirundu and along Lake Kariba in the Southern Province. Omega Corporation has targeted sites on the northern shores of Lake Kariba where the company is finalising feasibility studies for mine development.

A regulatory regime for mining, processing, storage, transportation and trade of uranium will be in place this year and all holders of current exploration licences for uranium will be allowed to apply for uranium mining licences.

Madam Chairperson, considering the expansion of large-scale mining by investors and exploration activities that are in progress, the future of the mining industry in Zambia has never been brighter. It is hoped that with the current economic policies that have been put in place by the Government and the efforts being made by investors, mining will continue to be the driving force for the economic growth of Zambia.

There are numerous prospects for diversification in the mining sector for investors to explore for mineral deposits. The investment climate in Zambia is ideal for current investors to expand their operations and for new investments in green fields. The Government has laid the foundation for building a self sustaining private sector-led and mineral based industry. All investors, large and small, local and foreign, are welcome to join us in building on this foundation and be part of the vibrant mining industry.

Madam Chairperson, another point worth noting is that the intended repeal and replacement of the Petroleum Act will lead to increased oil exploration activities in the country by private companies. The anticipated increase in activities in the mining sector implies more work for the Ministry and, therefore, there is a need for more resources, both financial and human. There is an urgent need to strengthen the structure of the Ministry to enable it effectively monitor the mining sector to ensure that the nation gets the full benefits accruing from the mining industry.

The Government is committed to a policy of openness and transparency. We are also receptive to dialogue with all stakeholders within the mining sector. I, therefore, appeal to this august House to approve the 2008 estimates of expenditure for my Ministry.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development for that moving speech as he is requesting for the Budget to be adopted. I just would like to make a few observations which I feel should be taken into consideration. The first point I would like to make is on the policy statement. From what has been happening in the mining industry, it has become apparent that there is no watchdog or let me say that the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has failed to monitor the mining operations.

Mr D Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: We are seeing gross abuse by these mining organisations with no recourse or no one to control them. I will give examples. There was that accident at Chambishi by the Chinese. Let me also talk about the recent one which is the Mufulira water pollution where acid leaked into water. We were told that this was an oversight by those who are running this system and that they did not do certain things which they should have done.

Madam Chairperson, in-situ leaching is not a new technology. It is there in other countries and these same companies, in other countries, dare not leak acid into the ground to pollute water which people drink. They know that you are supposed to put a membrane underneath the acid is, but here, that membrane was not put there. Then we come and start charging the shift boss or mine captain.

Mr Kambwili: Shame!

Mr Simuusa: To me that is shameful. Those companies in other countries dare not do that.

Madam Chairperson, what this means is that here in Zambia, these companies have seen that there is no one to regulate them. They can do anything with impunity, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: …and yet the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is the right authority to monitor these companies. There are many foreign companies presently in Zambia. We have a lot of foreign companies who have come with high technology and very sophisticated methods which they are using. I dare say that our Ministry is possibly ill-equipped to face these foreign companies. In this regard, I would like the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to upgrade the Ministry so that we can address and tackle these sophisticated companies that have come on board.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: If you go to the Ministry to get a plan or licence, you will find that there is chaos with their computers. You cannot get a simple plan and if you talk to the people there, they do not know what is going on. Even if it is improving, I personally, was very disappointed. You cannot monitor these sophisticated companies with an ill-equipped and poorly staffed Ministry. That has to be looked into, hon. Minister, as we consider this Budget.

On the same point, I will give another example of JS Mining and to date, nobody from the Government has talked about JS Mining. We raised a point of order here asking that someone in Government should tell us what is going on, but to date, nothing has happened. There is a foreign mining contractor in Chingola that was working for Konkola Copper Mines (KCM). This company stopped operations abruptly two weeks ago. I inquired about it because we are talking about the foreign mining companies that were saying they have the best operations. We asked them what the problem was because there is a possibility that those miners, over 300 of them, will not be paid since the mine has closed. If you ask this company what the problem was, they say the rate was too low. KCM says no, the rate is fine, but it is just that these people were inefficient.

Madam Chairperson, that foreign company signed the contract, meaning t it acceded that the rate was fine when they were mining. Today, they want to turn around and say that the rate is too low. If the rate is too low, why is KCM, the Indian company, allowed to stifle rates and cause other companies to close, and throwing 325 miners in the cold with a possibility of them not being paid in the process? Who is going to monitor all that? To date, nobody in Government has spoken about this issue which is very serious. The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is saying that we are going to monitor mining operations, but who is going to address this situation?

Another issue is on dividends. We have said here, time and again, that, having brought the matter of mining taxes, which I appreciate, the issue of dividends is just as cardinal. We need to see dividends proclaimed or declared to the Government. Unfortunately, to date, dividends are not being declared, meanwhile spread sheets go through the accounts. There is nobody insisting or going into those accounts to ask why we are not getting dividends. I know ZCCM is supposed to do it, but they are not doing and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is not doing it. Who is going to do it? Who is the watchdog for the people of Zambia when it comes to monitoring and controlling these mining companies? There is nobody, and that concerns me greatly. Therefore, I would like the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to critically look at this policy.

Possibly, that is why we are saying that his statement is to formulate policy. Maybe he is concentrating on policy, but if he is concentrating on policy, who is going to watch the mines for the people of Zambia and ensure that all these issues that are coming up are addressed?

The other issues that I would like to comment on is the strengthening of the Geological Survey Department and the issuance of mining licences. The issuance of small-scale mining licences was suspended at the end of June, 2007, and we were told that they would be ready by the end of December, 2008. This is February, 2008, but it has not been done. We were told that it would be extended possibly up to April, 2008.

Madam, I would like to pose a question here. What is so difficult? Again, I say that the Ministry is ill-equipped. If we are going to computerise and put things on maps and properly co-ordinate, why should it take nine months? When I look in this Budget, I am not seeing any money for that modernisation apart from a K20 million, but what is K20 million when I am seeing K500 million on other things for monitoring and visiting of the mines.

Madam Speaker, in my short debate, I will not say much. What I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister and to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to realise that it is the watchdog for the people of Zambia; and in that regard, I am saying the people of Zambia would need the benefits to be brought back into Zambia and by that we mean we should be able to monitor these sophisticated mining companies.

In my maiden speed, I said that I was a very sad man in the sense that when you look at how much mineral wealth and resources we have, we should be one of the richest countries in the world.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: Unfortunately, we are ranked among the poorest and I am asking the question: Why? These are the questions the Ministry should be asked. Why are we ranked the poorest? I would like to say that we need to be aggressive. As a Ministry, we are a bit too passive. We are reactive and not proactive.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: We need to be radical and forward looking so that we see and ask why. Let us assume international standards and I know that they do that in other countries. Let them ask the question, when you go to, for instance, China, Australia or wherever there are big mining companies, why are we ranked the poorest, and yet we have the richest resources in the world.

Madam Chair, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Chair, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate on these estimates.

Firstly, I will tackle the issue of the mine tax regime. Let me say that on the issue of the mine tax regime, this whole country is united, the Church mother bodies and even the diplomatic missions of the countries where the investors come from included. Our trade unionist, political parties, Members of Parliament, students and past Presidents are all united on this issue that 47 per cent tax should be implemented. Therefore, I ask those on your right, especially the President, the one who negotiates with the mining companies, not to be compelled to retract this particular decision.

In saying that, let me say that we are dealing with a sophisticated industry and already, as we warned in this House, we have seen evidence of understating profits and over stating costs and other malpractices.

Let me give an example. In the days of ZCCM, when it was supposed to be doing badly when there was a cry to privatise it, the costs of production was US$1 per pound, and yet the price on the London Metal Exchange was 75 cents per pound. Therefore, this country went ahead and privatized the mines. How is it then that now, with the new mining methods with reduced labour costs and all the other advantages, the mining companies can claim that their mining cost is over US$2 per pound? How is that possible? We ask, therefore, for those who are mandated to deal with these issues to start monitoring and be aware that these are the areas where the understatement of profits will cause this country to continue losing out.

I will look at other areas with the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development which the Ministry of Finance and National Planning must continue to monitor and that is transfer pricing.

Madam Chairperson, we have Mopani Copper Mines which is mining here, but the company mandated to sale their copper is Glyco which is a major shareholder in Mopani Copper Mines. In a situation like that, how can we avoid transfer pricing? This we must look into.

There is another issue of subcontracting where some of the mining companies have created other mining companies to carry out mining operations for them. The purpose for that, and I can give an example of Kansanshi Mine. The owners of that mine, who are owned by First Quantum, have created a mining operation that carries out mining in Kansanshi. If this is not looked at seriously, it will cause the money to be transferred into the mining operation at the expense of the mine owner in which ZCCM has shares.

Madam Chairperson, I will give you another example of where this country can lose lots of money. Not long ago, on the Floor of this House, it was reported that the KCM Smelter in Chingola had brought about 634 foreigners to work on the smelter. This is a clear example of how money is going to leave this country and go into foreign hands to the disadvantage of the Zambians.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Bebeni bonfwe.

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, one other thing that we risk is to understate the profit that this company makes. For example, if you have 600 people from another country working here, and getting a monthly average of US$10,000 each, we are talking about US$6 million leaving this country every month. We must watch out for such things.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, another aspect to watch out for is that it may be alright if we opened up and allowed so many foreign nationals to come and work here when the going is easy. However, when the going gets tough, these people will go and we will not have skills in our own people to continue to run these operations.

Madam Chairperson, let me go back to my earlier example. If they are understating or overstating their cost of production as US$2 per pound, it means that if the price falls on the London Metal Exchange, these mining companies will no longer make profit and, therefore, the mining operations in Zambia will be threatened.

Madam Chairperson, the other aspect I would like to talk about is that of safety in the mining operations. I think that we have seen too many accidents too often. We have seen too many of our people killed or injured in these mining operations. In the ZCCM days, the record on safety was the highest. It was even higher than in South Africa. On the Mine Winders, the safety on the ZCCM Mines was much higher than those on the Gold Mines in South Africa.  For those who are listening, it is the one area in the mines where you can kill 200 people at a goal if you do not service, for example, the rope that holds the skip.

Madam Chairperson, let me touch on the issue of in-situ leaching. There appears to be a misunderstanding. The hon. Minister earlier said that in-situ leaching is practiced all over the world. What is practiced all over the world is the leaching process in a controlled environment where the spent acids are handled in such a manner that they are disposed of safely. What is meant by in-situ leaching as practiced in Mufulira is that because of the slurry ore that was found on the ‘A’ ore body, that is, the body above five hundred metre level, they have now determined that they will pour acid in these holes. This acid percolates all the way down to where they get potable water for the whole of Mufulira Town. I do not think anyone would be allowed to practice this type of mining in America.
 
Mr Munaile: Never!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, you cannot be allowed to pollute underground water. It is a crime. One other area that we need to look at is the revenue. As I debate these issues, I am mindful that the Budget is made up of two parts: the revenue side and the expenditure side. On this one, I wish to focus specifically on ZCCM–IH and I am following up on the point made by the last debater on dividends. As we have factored the new tax regime into these profits, there must be a corresponding increase in the amount of profits that ZCCM makes and, in turn, the amount of dividends that they declare to the Government. However, I see that on the revenue side, the dividends that were indicated under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning at K29.34 billion is this year stated at K12.9 billion. Why are we seeing a reduction …

Mr Kambwili: Nabeba.

Mr Milupi:  … when we are going to have more money coming out of the mines? I will leave this point as it has been adequately tackled.

I will look at the area of exploration and mining throughout the country. There is a danger here. The whole country is carved up among very few foreigners. This is dangerous.

Madam Chairperson, as we speak, five companies own all the exploration licences. These are the Spirit of the River, Bilton Developments, Caledonian, Jaluki and one Zambian, Ng’ona Chilufya. They have carved up the whole of the Western Province. What this means is that an ordinary Zambian cannot legally dig up building sand without applying for permission from these people who hold these licences as this activity is termed as a mining operation. How are we going to encourage empowerment?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame, shame!

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, there is one specific example where this Government has flouted its own rules. The Spirit of the River was given about 50 per cent of the Western Province for the purpose of exploration for diamonds. This company has now been given a mining license to carry out mining.

Madam Chairperson, in the ordinary sense, exploration is meant to focus on a particular area so that minerals are located before a mining license is given to cover a much smaller area for mining. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, and hopefully the hon. Minister will explain that, the exploration license for the Spirit of the River in the Western Province was transformed in to a mining license for the whole area in which they are exploring. This means that nobody can carry out any mining in the Western Province. If you want to follow it up, the Mining License Number is 56 and is valid for twenty-five years, which is up to September, 2031. This must be corrected because it will impact on the oil and gas exploration that we suspect is deposited in this area.

Mr Sing’ombe: Waswilila, musamba?

Mr Milupi: This was issued despite what we heard on this Floor previously that this particular company is under stress. The bailiffs are after them for failing to pay their fuel bills, and yet they have been given a mining license that covers 50 per cent of the Western Province. This was not based on any exploration results because we have not heard of the results thereof.

Mr Sing’ombe: Bo Imasiku.

Mr Milupi: There was no environmental impact assessment carried out as was admitted on the Floor of this House. The land that was given to them was not reduced to pinpoint the area where they had found the minerals.

Mr Kambwili: Hammer!

Dr Machungwa: Bolela, bo Induna.

Mr Milupi: This is a scandal as this alienates land from the people.

Hon. Opposition Member: Ichalo balisenda.

Mr Milupi: Our current chiefs think that they have power and you can go to them ...

Mr Sing’ombe: Mubika, Mubika.

Hon. Members: And the Indunas.

Mr Milupi: … and the Indunas, he is right.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: They think they have the land, and yet, in essence, because of what is happening at the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, this land is quietly taken away from the people.

Madam Chairperson, these are issues that we need addressed as they have the potential to bring problems. Yet still, if we handled mining correctly, we can use it as a conduit to bring accelerated development to this country to diversify our economy and ensure that our educational and health systems are improved and above all, the Vision of 2030 is achieved.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Chairperson, I would like to start with safety. People have indicated that safety is very poor in the mines. Do you know why? The reason is that some of these investors have very poor safety records even where they come from.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: A day hardly passes without reading or hearing on the radio that such and such a number of people has been trapped underground. Honestly, how do we expect such people to look after the lives of the Zambians?

The Chairperson: Order

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

 

[MADAM CHAIPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just looking at the attitude or negligence we are getting from some of these investors.

Looking at what happens, these people are just too many that even if they are killed underground, they will not feel anything. I am sure that even the BGrimm Explosive Accident did not move them.

Madam Chairperson, let us look at another aspect. In our situation, a miner keeps, on average, ten people at his home, but where they come from (China), they have a policy of having one child only. Therefore, if a miner dies here, ten to fifteen people would suffer, but for them, it is only the mother and the child. I believe we should be able to supervise these investors, adequately. We can only do that, as a Government, by introducing mining regulations and explosive acts that will deter accidents in the mines.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, this Government has an obligation to safeguard the lives of the people. As I said, they can only do that if they are able to monitor what is happening throughout the mining industry.

After my debates last year, we have seen some activities from the mining inspectors, but that is not enough. Why are people still dieing? This is why I did not agree with the hon. Minister when he said that there was a significant drop in the number of accidents. A reduction of fourteen from eighteen is nothing to write home about because there is only a difference of four, and yet we are talking about the lives of people.

Madam Chairperson, safety is a state of mind and it begins from the home. Therefore, any employer who gives slave wages to his workers is actually encouraging accidents.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Chanda: To enhance safety throughout the country, I urge all the employers, including the Government to pay meaningful wages to their employees.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Tell them!

Mr Chanda: I am aware that my colleagues touched on prospective or mining rights. The issue of mining rights is a sad one in this country. This Government has been urging Zambians to look for opportunities instead of just sitting down and crying about the high poverty levels, but I wonder because when you look at what they have done on the ground, it is to the contrary. We are sitting on a country that has been sold. You look at the map and see which area has not been taken. The hon. Minister is there. Which area has not been taken? It will require a Zambian to go and kneel before this Muzungu to ask for a place where to carry out small mining activities. This is shameful. Why should we beg to mine our own minerals? Why has this Government decided to enslave us who are living now and the generations to come?

Mr Lubinda: Lila, mwana!

Mr Chanda: I will cry later.

Hon. PF Members: Tell them!

Mr Chanda: This is a very sad development in our country. This has been brought about because of that Government there.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, depending on how you beg from these foreign companies, they might be able to give you a small piece of land for your small mining activities. My question is: “Why should we beg in our own country?” In fact, they are the ones who are supposed to beg from us, but we are begging from them. I do not appreciate that. Hon. Minister, give the Zambians the respect they deserve. I know that you have the capacity and capability to do that. This country deserves to be respected. We might be poor, but, please, give us our dignity. They say that we cannot mine these minerals, let us give them to foreigners, but, please, give us the dignity that we deserve.

Madam Chairperson, I believe, in Bemba they say, “Ushumfwa pafingi, takonfwe na patu nono.”

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Translate!

The Chairperson: Hon. Chanda what do you mean?

Laughter

Mr Chanda: Madam Chairperson, I said that our colleagues should be able to pick sense from what I have said in a few words than from a mountain of words.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for affording me this opportunity to contribute on this Vote on the Floor of the House. I am aware that my colleagues from the mining areas have contributed extensively and I do not wish to dilute what has been contributed on the Floor of this House.

Madam Chairperson, I only have one issue which is very close to my heart and that has to do with benefit sharing. I would like to remind the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development that in the year 2002, the President launched a paper called Poverty Reduction Strategic Paper (PRSP). In that paper, on mining, it was stated specifically that the Government was going to create a Mining Community Development Fund where part of the tax that was being collected from the mining industry was going to be put so that that money was going to be utilised to rehabilitate the mining communities.

Madam, for a long time, the Copperbelt has suffered extensively because of very little resources and benefits coming from the mining activities that go on in the mining industries. Whatever is received by the Government from taxation is spent elsewhere. When you visit our mining communities, you will discover that communities are in a very bad state. I expect that as we are about to start receiving good revenues from the mining industry, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will reconsider to create this Fund so that it is controlled by the local councils and the people in the mining industry to see to it that we are able to improve the roads, schools and the living standards of the people in these mining areas.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I am aware that the President announced the 47 per cent windfall tax and we all got excited, but we have seen the latest development of resistance from the mining companies. Those of us who come from these mining areas are concerned. Last year, we challenged the mining industries to help us in corporate social responsibilities. With the new development, we are worried that our colleagues might change their position. I would like to take this opportunity to appeal to our colleagues in the mining industry to realise that the minerals that we have in these mines were God-given to the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Therefore, we expect that they should work hand-in-hand with us so that whilst they are benefiting, the Zambian people also benefit.

Madam, last year, we discussed the Mines and Mineral Royalty Tax and, of course, it was on the Floor of this House where we agreed that it be 3 per cent and that Act was passed. I am disappointed that this year, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has not mentioned on the Floor of this House how much has been collected at 3 per cent. I would not be surprised to learn that even this year what was collected was at 0.6 per cent and that would be very unfortunate. The problem that we have with our Government is that they are so quick to make pronouncements which we fail to implement. It is important that we take up the  challenge of implementing whatever we agree on because once we do that, the people will consider us to be a serious Government.

Mr Lubinda: Bauze, mwana!

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I am still skeptical about whether we shall be able to implement the tax that we have been celebrating about. I know the all communities out there are the Zambian people. All the communities and the stakeholders who were mentioned by Hon. Milupi are happy. However, we thought that by the time the President was coming to announce this on the Floor of this House, it would have already been discussed with the mining industries. After the pronouncements were made on the Floor of the House, we should not have expected any challenges from these mining industries. Now, we, and for that matter, State House, are entering into new negotiations with these mining industries, which is very unfortunate.

Laughter

Mr Mwenya: What we would want to see is a situation where the Zambian people benefit from these mining industry. At the same time, as we enter into negotiations with these mining industries,…

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Ukambe bwino!

Mr Tetamashimba: It is not specialty. You know that I speak and debate better than you.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: I am not clumsy.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! Can you raise your point of order.

Mr Tetamashimba: Madam Chairperson, the President of this country had stated clearly that these mining owners are free to meet the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, but they should raise issues which are not going to tamper with the decision the President has already made. Is the hon. Member in order to mislead the country that the President has opened up negotiations, and yet he has stated categorically that these increments are not negotiable?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing has raised a point of order on Hon. Mwenya who is debating. His concern in the point of order is that Hon. Mwenya, in his debate, is saying that negotiations have been re-opened on the issue of tax and the 3 per cent mineral royalty tax. The hon. Deputy Minister is saying that, in fact, this is not the position of the Government. He has said the Government has been categorical that there will be no re-negotiation.

Therefore, can the hon. Member who is debating state his facts. If he does not know this position as a fact or if he can give evidence that what has been stated is not a fact, may he state that to the House and the rest of the nation so that we know. Otherwise, we want to know the truth.

He may continue.

Mr Mwenya:  Madam Chairperson, in one of the print media, it was clearly indicated …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwenya: … that our colleagues from the mining industry have quoted the Government so that this matter could be looked into.

 

Madam Chairperson, I was about to say that before these mining investors came into this country, the standard of our mining industry was going down.

The Chairperson: Order!

We would like to have this point clarified. Is there going to be a re-negotiation or not? State that point clearly and continue.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I am aware that at the end of the day, these negotiations will take place because we have seen the stance that the mining industry has taken.

The Chairperson: Order! Sit down.

Nobody can stop you from giving your opinion here. However, a statement of fact has to be a statement of fact. If your implication is that there will be re-negotiations, state it as such. Is the Government re-negotiating now? We want this fact clarified.

You may continue.

Mr Mwenya: Madam Chairperson, I would like to withdraw that statement, …

Hon. Government Members: hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: …but let me say that as far as we know, the Government shall definitely enter into negotiations with these mining industries at the end of the day.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: I would like to mention again that before the mining investors came into this country, ZCCM had failed to run the mines. The standard of the mines was deteriorating. However, the investors have made the mining companies attractive, hence the reason today we would want them to pay a favourable percentage of tax for the Zambian people. It is prudent, therefore, that we are not dictatorial in the way we take this issue. It is important that we sit on a Round table, agree and came up with a better position on taxation. We need good revenue from the mining companies.

Madam Chairperson, I mentioned earlier that the issue closest to heart is profit sharing. In connection to profit sharing, I talked about the Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper (PRSP). Last year, when the hon. Minister of Finance and National planning presented the Mines and Mineral Royalty Bill before this House, he mentioned that another fund would be created. I do not know whether he was referring to the same fund. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to consider the creation of the fund seriously. Our people on the Copperbelt, where the minerals are mined, have not benefited anything for a long time. We want this fund to be actualised.

Mr Matongo: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, I think this country must be told categorically by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development whether there are talks towards these Development Agreements or not and whether, in fact, the law they are bringing here to put into effect the windfall tax …

Mr Imasiku: Your point of order.

Mr Matongo: The point of order is that we want a categorical statement from the hon. Minister on this issue, and he should tell us whether the Development Agreements will not be an issue after we pass the law on windfall tax. Madam, I would like a categorical statement. 
Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! 
 
The Chair is never compelled to make a ruling, and that, hon. Members, must know. The Chair can choose to keep quiet. However, I see that Hon. Matongo is not raising a point of order at all. He wanted to sneak in his own ideas and debate.

The hon. Member debating may continue.

Mr Mwenya: I would like to thank Hon. Matongo for sneaking in that one. I think it is very important and we need that information.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to mention that we expect the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to take a serious stance on the treatment of Zambian employees in these mining industries. The discrepancy in salaries between foreign employees and Zambian employees in the same grade is too gross. The salaries cannot be compared, and yet Zambian workers are more experienced than the foreign workers, who have only come in to supervise them. That issue needs to be revisited. We need to go out there and make sure that the Zambian workers in the mining industry are remunerated in the best manner possible.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order!

Before I ask another hon. Member to contribute, I would like give a little guidance to the House. As you can see, there are still so many people indicating to debate on this matter, and, indeed, on all the other matters that are before us. Hon. Members of the Committee, it is not about how much time you take to debate. Let us be sensitive. Make your point clearly and precisely. The nation and the House are listening. Do not keep on repeating yourself, otherwise the Chair will be compelled to stop you because then, you bring some tedious repetition of your point or points made by others. This is part of our procedure in the House. Therefore, hon. Members as you stand to speak, make your points and do not worry about the time.

Mr Kasoko (Mwembeshi): Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to state that the people on your right are not serious with the affairs of the Government.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair would like to hear. There is too much loud consultation.

Mr Kasoko: Madam, before 1964, the Zambian people in all the provinces came together to fight the Government, which was then ruling this country. One of the issues they were fighting for was land. This time around, the MMD Government has started giving the land that we fought for with Whites, for mining investments, for sugar plantations and as farming lands. In the Lusaka Province, only one person was given the rights and they know it. In Mumbwa District, where I come from, the rights were given to Reuben Wood.  

Madam Chairperson, next to my home, there is a mine, …

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: …but I cannot mine there unless I ask for rights from a Mr Reuben Wood, a person who came yesterday, at the expense of the indigenous people.

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Why should it be so? 
On the other hand, we have farmers who are cultivating sugarcane and are getting land from poor peasant farmers without documents.

Reports have been presented to the Government and the Anti-Corruption Commission, but, no action has been taken. You should go there and see for yourself.

Madam Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President is aware of what I am talking about ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: … because a group of people from Mwembeshi came to see him regarding this matter. Four years down the line, the Anti-Corruption Commission has not moved there. Yet, Sable is taking the land away from our peasant farmers, the land which we fought for before 1964. Why should it be so?

Madam Chairperson, if an indigenous Zambian goes to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development to apply for a mining licence or whatever licence, it will take a bit of time before authority is given and sometimes it may not be given at all.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: Yet for the Chinese and other people, it is 1 + 1 and they are given a simple answer. They are getting those documents.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: If they are just sitting in their offices and have not toured the country to see what is happening, I would like to invite them to go and see what is happening out there. There is no way you can open up your whole house. At least you leave you the bedroom locked properly. Yet, this Government has opened up everything, including the bedroom.

Madam Chairperson, there is no district in this country where you are not going to find foreigners mining. There is no way you can open up everything.

You must think for tomorrow for the ones who are still in the womb and those who we are awaiting to come so that when they come, they should also benefit from what we are tying to benefit from now.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr Kasoko: But, this Government has opened up everything.

Madam Chairperson, I thought that maybe, the people who went to school had more knowledge than those who have not been to school. In the United Nations Independence Party (UNIP) Government, there were only a few who were educated. The majority in Cabinet were not educated, but they did wonders…

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: … for this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: They brought all the Universities and the rest. Most of those people on your right are educated, but they do not know what they are doing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: Madam Chairperson, I can recall what my late father-in-law, the late John Cholwe, said to me. He was once hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba. He said and I quote:

“Son, do not think that the people who went to school have knowledge. They do not. The people with knowledge are in the villages, but they have never been to school.”

The Chairperson: Now I believe.

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Do not open up your homes. At least, leave the bedroom. Think about the ones that are going to come in twenty to fifty years to come. Do not let everything to go. Do not give away the country to the Whites indirectly the way you have done it. The people still want land and still want to mine, but where are they going to mine?

Madam Chairperson, the second issue is the issue of foreigners. We have so many foreigners in this country. When a company or organisation comes from overseas to set up a company here, they bring their own workers at the expense of Zambians. Why should it be so?

Madam Chairperson, there is a restaurant just here at the Manda Hill Shopping Complex. You should go there and see for yourselves. Starting from the sweeper, waiter, barman, gents cleaner and mangers, they are all foreigners. Even those who cook and the domestic workers at the managers’ residents are all foreigners. Where are our people going to get jobs from? Those who are coming from the Copperbelt are saying that there are a lot of foreigners who have been brought in to work in the mines. Where are the Zambians going to get the jobs from? In whatever we do, especially you from the Executive, do not abuse this power you have been given. Whatever we do, especially you from the Executive who are in power, should not abuse the power that you have. In whatever we do, we should also think about what is happening in other countries. What is happening in other countries is exactly what is going to happen in this country one day. The foreigners that you have allowed to come in en masse, one day, will rise and fight for power. They are going to team up and try to go to plot one because they are making money and will have money. They will buy everybody. You are there to help your own indigenous people. Close your doors. Do not open them.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the contributions of the other hon. Members of Parliament who spoke before me.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia is for Zambians. God never made a mistake by giving us this land just as he made no mistake by giving us the mineral wealth.

Madam Chairperson, having said this, I note, with satisfaction, that the Ministry is going to review the Mines and Minerals Act as well as review of the Petroleum Act.

I, therefore, hope that in reviewing these two Acts, the hon. Minister will pay attention to the needs of the Zambians. Zambians are crying day in and day out that the foreign investors are exploiting them and that the foreign investors are taking all the wealth away. This is the cry of the Zambians and I would like to join them in that cry. When are we going to take positive measures to ensure that we address the cries of the Zambian people? In this regard, I would like to express my displeasure at the way exploration licences as well as mining licences have been issued.

Madam Chairperson, if a Zambian goes to the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development to ask for a licence, it is common to see a Zambian giving little attention to this Zambian who is asking for a mining licence. That is the truth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Tell them!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: When a foreigner, especially a White foreigner goes to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, you will see happiness on these civil servants. Please, hon. Minister, I know that you have the capacity to do it and I know you will deliver. Please, ensure that you provide for positive discrimination in these Acts, positive in the sense that the new law must favour Zambians when it comes to granting of the licences.

I have never heard of a Zambian getting a mining licence in China or in the United States of America, and yet these are the architects of liberalisation. Why would they not give us a chance to mine in China? It is because they realise that the wealth there is meant to benefit their people. Now, why are we indifferent to the cries of our people? Why can we not give Zambians the chance …

Interruptions

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … that is a different case.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Chairperson, the point is very simple. None of my brothers on the right own any mining licences, and yet they have the capacity. Why is it so? It is about time we started looking after ourselves. This careless liberalisation is taking us nowhere.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. Banda, SC.: As the hon. Member of Parliament said earlier, it is recklessness. It is grave irresponsibility to liberalise your bedroom to an extent that you can allow your rival to go to your bedroom and do things which ought not to be done there by another person other than yourself.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Please, liberalisation must be reasonable. This is a very important point. Liberalisation has limits. I know, as a matter of fact, that there is one mining company on the Copperbelt, where the employee ratio between foreigners and Zambians is 1 to 1. This was confirmed by the Permanent Secretary, who is running the responsible ministry. What is wrong with us? If those 634 expatriates remit $10,000 each, how much money are we remitting in a month? Are we not surprised why we are not raising enough resources for the Treasury? The answer is careless liberalisation.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: My appeal to the hon. Minister, through the Chairperson, is to this time around, hon. Minister, deliver. We are banking on you to deliver a good Mines and Mineral Act, an Act that will look after our interests.

Hon. Opposition Member: State Council.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Chairperson, I visited Israel, specifically the City of Haifa. When I was taken on a conducted tour, I was taken to this company. I produced my passport because of their security check up and they said oh, yeah. A Zambian. Oh, yeah. We are friends come in. And I was shown one area of that building, where they were displaying gemstones from Zambia. And they said, “Oh, the most precious gemstones we have here are from Zambia. If you are a Zambian, we will sell some to you at a discounted price”. Then, I said, “Oh, I will not buy any” because, believe you me, I looked foolish. They were literally telling us that the beautiful precious gemstones are here, because you people are foolish you have allowed us to come to your country and get the best out of your country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: What is happening in the gemstone sector, Madam Chairperson? We have had Kagem operating for a long time, but what have we gained from the operations of Kagem? Nothing. We have beautiful mines under the control of foreigners from Senegal, but what are we benefiting from that apart from their contributions to political parties?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: What are we benefiting? Please, let us have the love of this country at heart. Let contributions which have been made to political parties not blind us. We should not be blinded by those contributions because I am confident that what is happening now is that, if a miner contributes to certain political parties, then, he is guaranteed everything.

Hon. Opposition Member: Point.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: He will be given everything for the asking. Please, let us be patriotic for a change. The mineral wealth is meant for us. It must be harnessed for our benefit.

Madam Chairperson, having said that, I must also point out, hon. Minister, that as you amend the Acts which you have pointed out, please, look at the attitude of your officers. The officers at the Ministry, I can assure you, are letting you down, hon. Minister. We know that now we want to bring in changes which will ensure empowerment of Zambians, but believe you me, the first obstacle you will face, are your officers in the Ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Most of them are only interested in lining up their pockets at the expense of this country. If it is necessary, let them be transferred to other ministries ...

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … so that you can start on a fresh plate. Zambia deserves better. Let the public officers not let us down. Enough is enough, we need to advance. All of us know that everyday, we are asking for projects from the Government. How would the Government provide for us if we cannot increase the resource base? Fortunately, for us and as I stated earlier, the President has given us leadership. He has made far-reaching pronouncements that this time around, we need to get a better share, a bigger share from the mining companies. My encouragement to the Government is that this measure which you have put in place is supported by everybody. Therefore, we will not expect you to hold backdoor meetings with these people who have been exploiting us for a long time. If you do that, you will be betraying our confidence. All of us will support you. The mining companies have had it good and time is up. We also need a fair share from that investment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: I hope, as a caring Government, you will listen to our cries. This time around, do not entertain these greedy mining operators. They are greedy. Even if they come with Zambians, just bear in mind that those Zambians are sell-outs. They are not patriotic.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Please, I beg this MMD Government to, this time around, put their foot down. If it means breaking your foot, let it be broken because it will be broken for a good cause, a cause that all of us will support.

With these few words, I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, it is important also that I add my voice to that of the others on this very important Vote.

Madam Chairperson, I felt encouraged when the President opened Parliament early this year. I felt equally encouraged when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning also had presented his Budget. Specifically, they talked about enhancing mining development in this country to enable us realise the benefits that go with that activity. There are certain important areas that the President talked about. He bemoaned a number of things such as safety health and environment in the mining activities. He also talked about the need to open up mining activities in this country.

Madam Chairperson, many of the hon. Members have talked about the Geological Survey Department activities. These Geological Survey Department activities are critical for this country, if we have to make progress in the area of mining. They are there to investigate for us the presence of these minerals that we desire so much in this country, and not only tell us we have this kind of mineral in this particular area, but also determine the value and the extent of those same minerals in those areas.

Madam Chairperson, we have been disappointed in this area because as much as there is some effort in that area, I am of the feeling that we have not put in the required efforts. I say so because we have areas such as, for instance, Mwense. This area was mapped a long time ago, but it is very disheartening to note that the information about this district is not given out to the public for them to know that this is what is obtaining in this particular area. Probably, the concern could be as a result of the inadequate number of teams that are carrying out this activity. Probably, each time you visit the Department to find out about this information that you want to get from them, they will tell you that the people who went to Mwense to handle this are now in Shang’ombo. Why do they not get the samples and take them to their offices so that other people can analyse it? Why should we wait for people who got the samples to come and dump the material that they went to get prior to going to other areas? When are we going to make the analysis? We need this information quickly. Where this information is given out, like it has already been pointed out, the only people who can access it are none other than the foreigners. You wonder how they know that there is this particular village in Mwense because they will just be in Zambia for one week, but will go to these areas asking for these villages. Where are they getting this information from?

Mr Sing’ombe: Hammer!

Mr Chongo: It is from the civil servants who are working in these departments who give them the information.

Madam Chairperson, let me leave concern and talk about safety in the mines. The President expressed his concern over the same. Safety in the mines is compromised by a number of factors. These factors can best be checked by the Mines Safety Department in the Ministry. Although, I have, of course, noticed that inspections to large mining activities have been reduced by 50 per cent this year, people are bemoaning the poor safety standards in the mines. When are we going to ensure that we enhance on this activity so that we reduce the number of accidents?

Madam Chairperson, departure from laid down safety requirements in the mines are a source of the accidents in this sector. Most of the time, the mines safety inspectors are compromised. The accidents that occur in the mines such as the 2006 disaster at Mufulira’s mine in the Msombo Shaft are as a result of negligence on the part of the same Mines Safety Department officers. That accident could have been avoided. Let me, like I have always done, declare interest that I worked in that mine. I am conversant with the operations of the shafts because I was trained as a shaft specialist.

Mr Sichilima: Waletolafwe amabwe, iwe!

Laughter

Mr Munaile: Just ignore him.

Mr Chongo: Madam Chairperson, that accident was preceded by three similar incidences except that, this time around, the cage was empty, but the doors were ripped off. Inspectors were inspecting, but they did not notice this.

Mr Kanyanyamina: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member is insisting on a point of order. Is it on procedure?

Mr Kanyanyamina: Very procedural, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kanyanyamina: Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for granting me this point of order. For once we have experienced, as hon. Members of Parliament lodging at the National Assembly Motel, what the common Zambian is experiencing, which is having no electricity and water.

Hon. PF Members: Kanyama.

Mr Kanyanyamina: If it were a private home like my house, I would make …

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Member! Sit down. I really think that we have been freely guided. What is that point of order? It is not on procedure in the House. It is not even on the subject matter on the Floor. If you have any issue of urgent nature, the House has been guided on how to go about that, unless you are bringing a matter of life and death. We …

Mr Kanyanyamina: It is a matter of life and death.

The Chairperson: Order! You know exactly what I mean. At least, there has been guidance. We know how to go about issues of an urgent nature and constitutional issues. Basically here, points of order are on procedure. Many times, we allow points of order that simply bring a light moment in the House. Otherwise, the point of order should be on procedure and should be on clearing a fact that may have been misrepresented. These are the type of points of order to be raised, especially when we are dealing with such important national matters such as the Budget. We really want to make progress.

As hon. Members of Parliament, we want to go through the Budget so that we see the disbursement of resources as allocated in the Budget. We cannot be going back on issues that are not for this House. You know where else to take that point of order which is not a point of order.

Hon. Chongo, you may continue.

Mr Chongo: Madam Chair, I am talking about compromise in the way these mine safety inspectors work. They are so compromised that even the managers of these mines request the Department to compromise on certain safety standards. I say so because sometimes on appointments where a mine regulation stipulates minimum qualifications for a particular position, but because they do not want to employ well qualified staff, they employ people with inferior qualifications to those required by the regulations. They ask this Department to relax the regulations.

For instance, to be appointed to the position of Shift Boss, there is a safety letter which determines that the minimum educational qualification should be Form 5. However, since they were having problems with the Form 5s and graduates, they thought of lowering the standards. They asked for permission to do so, but this only pertains to one particular mine. The standards should be universal. What is obtaining at Mufulira Mine should obtain at Nkana Mine so that they do not compromise the safety standards.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: This is the problem that has encouraged a lot of accidents in the area. We have departed from requirements of mining standards. In those days, it was a requirement that there be a provision which is not there in the mines today. For instance, the Mine Return Airways (MRA) where used air, exhaust air, should pass through to go out of the mines and others were used as fresh air intakes, but you will find one channel at this particular level is used as an MRA. However, inspectors go into those mines, but they do not take note of this anomaly. Therefore, we cannot blame some of the mine managers. We need to blame the Mines Safety Department because there is a curriculum on that.

Therefore, I just would like to implore the hon. Minister to ensure that there is an effective check up to the safety standards. Next time around, we will hear of a disaster that will shake this nation.

Hon. Milupi stated that, in the mines, there is a potential to lose 200 lives at a time. Indeed, that is true. Safety Inspectors do not even check mine installations such as shafts. Going into the shaft is dangerous. It is only a rope that holds the cage to go down. The shaft installations are no more. I did not want to talk about which mine, but I challenge the hon. Minister to effectively send the inspectors, probably to go shaft by shaft and inspect the shafts. They are almost a death trap.

With these few words, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Her, hear!

The Chairperson: I see that we still have a number of people who would like to debate. However, unless your issue has not already been mentioned, the Chair may be compelled to stop you. I will only allow one hon. Member after which the hon. Minister can wind up debate. Please, try to give your points in a very brief manner. I will give this opportunity to Hon. Chota.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief.

Mr Kambwili walked out of the Chamber.

Hon. Government Members: Order!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chota: Madam Chairperson, we were very happy when the President came on the Floor of this House and spoke about the windfall tax of 47 per cent which is Corporate Tax and the 3 per cent Mineral Royalty Tax. I am begging the hon. Minister to enhance the capacity of people who will see to it that we maximise the collection of this tax. In the past, we had people who knew the process from tramming, to the concentrator and the smelter up to the refinery. They also knew the tonnage that was taken to the London Metal Exchange. These experts also knew about the by-products such as cobalt, coal and so forth.

I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister has put in place people who will be able to follow this procedure. Are there people who will know how much tonnage is sold at the London Metal Exchange? When I last debated, I mentioned that the mining companies can opt to sell in future so that they do not lose out. They may sell their copper after three or four months at a price that will not be lower than the production cost. Have we put in place people who will follow that? Presently, copper is stolen and we never know about it until someone who has the knowledge mentions that there is stolen copper being kept in someone’s house. We have heard of managers stealing copper and after they are taken to court, they run away to China. Are we able to know what is being mined and sold in order that we maximise the collection of this tax? This tax would assist us in our education, health and road sectors. Hon. Minister, I can assure you that if we did this, we would collect a lot of money because this country is rich.

Madam Chairperson, in the past, we used to know how much copper had been produced per day. The Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, the Metal Marketing Company (MEMACO), the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Bank of Zambia would all know the tonnage produced per day. Everybody would know and this way, there was no stealing.

However, presently, the Chinese are stealing copper like they are stealing bread because there is nobody to control the system. Does anyone know how much Cobalt is sold? Cobalt is a by-product and is sold for a lot of money. How much gold have we produced? We built the precious Metal Plant in Ndola because we used to produce gold Now where is that gold going? In the past, we used to take that gold to the Bank of Zambia. Who knows what is happening with all these things? Who is superintending the mining of our minerals?

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to wind up debate on the estimates for my Ministry. I will try to respond briefly to the concerns raised.

Hon. Simuusa who spoke first addressed the question of watchdog institutions, mining regulation and pollution. I would like to assure him that all these matters are being addressed in our reform effort which I mentioned about in my statement. Additionally, the Mines Safety Department has always taken action against those who pollute the environment and water and records are there to prove it.

We also addressed the question of JS Mining which may have stopped operations and workers have not been given their dues. I would like to say that my colleague at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is dealing with this and will address the matter comprehensively in due course.

However, I would like to agree with Hon. Milupi’s debate on dividends. This is serious because mining companies should declare dividends. We know that we have a large stake in all the mines through the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mine-Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH) and are following up this matter. We have also approached the companies concerned to alert them about this. I know that, for instance, Konkola Copper Mines Plc. (KCM) discussed this matter at a board meeting so that we can start getting dividends from the profits declared.

He also debated the moratorium. Yes, we have extended the re-opening from 1st December to 1st April because our small miners owe the Government substantial sums of money in outstanding charges that they have not been able to pay. We are engaging them in discussions to see how we can help them to pay. I hope that they do that because if they do not pay, they may lose licenses when the new system is introduced.

With regard to the question of in-situ leaching which Hon. Milupi condemned, I would like to say that this is working very well for Mopani Copper Mines because they are claiming some 10,000 metric tonnes of copper in worked out areas which, otherwise, could have been lost. Production cost for these operations is very low. It is 1US$ per pound compared to others whose costs are much higher. Therefore, this is a very good technology. All we need to do is make it safe because it is quite cheap and viable.

Now, with regard to the exploration companies that are known to occupy most of the country, while this may be true, there is still a lot of land that is available for allocation to those who are interested in exploration work. This is because exploration licenses have a lifespan of seven years and are renewed every two years. Every renewal is subject to reduction of 50 per cent of the area so that the area is left for others interested in asking for licenses.

With regard to the Spirit of the River which Hon. Milupi referred to, I would like to say that we comprehensively responded to this in a question that he asked in the House. We informed the House that the company had run into financial problems and we were examining the license itself so that we could proceed accordingly since there was no production there. This was explained in this House very clearly.

Hon. Chanda raised the issues of mine safety, just like the other hon. Members. As I said, in my statement, we have embarked on formulating a stand-alone policy on health and safety for our mining companies. Every mining house will be compelled to abide by that policy which will be finalised in due course.

With regard to the issue of area sizes, it is true that, currently, there is no law that restricts us in terms of area size of exploration licensing, but the new reforms I talked about will address this matter so that we have a limit on how much land can be available for exploration works and that as many Europeans companies as possible can apply for licences.

I would like to comment on the benefits of the mining activities as addressed by Hon. Mwenya. Yes, this is a serious matter, but part of this, in terms of sharing the benefits, is being done through corporate social responsibility programmes. My tour of the mining companies in December last year, where these processes are carried out, was very assuring in terms of how the mining companies are responding to this policy, but we know that much still needs to be done.

The tax regime that was announced by His Excellency the President and also elaborated by my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, is a decision that the Government has taken deliberately and it stands. It will not be changed and there will be no dialogue on this. We will entertain dialogue on explaining how it will affect companies, but they will not negotiate with anyone. That is a policy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: We will clarify issues and make the companies understand, but we are not going to negotiate the figures. That is what was concluded.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kasoko talked about land alienation and Rueben Hood Company that came yesterday and got parts of land in Mumbwa. The point is taken that we should restrict the size of land that is taken. As I said, the new regime regulations will address this matter further to have caps on the sizes.

Hon. C. K. Banda, thank you very much for your encouraging words about the reform. We want to strengthen Zambian participation in the mining industry so that they can create wealth for themselves, families, communities and the nation as a whole.

Madam Chairperson, regarding Hon. Chongo’s concern about special licences and information about Mwense, the report is being compiled and will be available to the public for scrutiny and study. After my geologists visited Mwense, they started compiling the report and are still doing that. The reduction of the Budget you addressed on Zambia’s Mines Safety Department was that the budget was higher last year because they had intended to procure equipment like vehicles which will not be given this year. Therefore, what we have this year is just for operational use and not for purchase of equipment and assets. And so, that is enough for operations.

Madam, the issue of mine safety officers as being compromised is serious. That kind of conduct surely invites action and I would like to assure him that I would like to investigate this matter. This is very serious and if he has information, he should confide it in me so that I can be empowered to launch an investigation on this matter. This is very serious, indeed.

Madam, in conclusion, I would like to say that we are working  very closely with the Chamber of Mines to ensure that the standards of safety are improved all round in the mining industry without each company having its own regulations. We want to standardise the standards as was the case under Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) and the Anglo-American Corporation.

Lastly, observations on taxation are very valid. Therefore, I would like to assure the hon. Member that through ZCCM, the Zambia Revenue Authority, Ministry of Finance and National Planning and my Ministry will work very closely together to ensure that collection of tax is enhanced and improved. I also would like to say that ZCCM is working closely with one international company that is specialised in plucking down expenditure so that we can account for all that we produce to realise maximum tax.

Madam Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 14/01 ─ (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development ─ Headquarters ─ K12,554,915,518).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 05 – Support to Ministers and Permanent Secretary’s Offices, K450,000,000. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what constitutes this Budget line which, as you might recall, was debated against in all ministries in the year 2005. What is it that constitutes support to Ministers and Permanent Secretary’s Offices to the amount of K450 million, and yet there is also K4.5 billion that is meant for the same activities in support to the administration of the Ministry.

Madam Chairperson, with your permission, I seek another clarification on Programme 3, Activity 01 – SDAC Secretariat, K150, 000,000. Could the hon. Minister indicate what it is we are paying for in the SADC Secretariat? Last year, we paid K254 million and now we are supposed to pay K150 million. What specific activities are we paying for, using the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for the SADC Secretariat?

Mr M. V. Mwale: Madam Chairperson, as regards Programme 2, Activity 05 – Support to Ministers and Permanent Secretary’s Offices – K450,000, 000, the provision caters for rented accommodation for two hon. Deputy Ministers, maintenance and insurance of motor vehicles, office entertainment, fuel and statutory allowances to the hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretary’s Offices.

Madam Chairperson, as regards Programme 3, Activity 01 – SDAC Secretariat, K150, 000,000, the provision caters for the counsellor’s arrears on medical bills.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I am not satisfied with Programme 2, Activity 05 – Support to Ministers and Permanent Secretary’s Offices, K450,000,000, but I can live with that.

However, I think that the hon. Deputy Minister might not have heard my question on Programme 3, Activity 01 – SADC Secretariat – K150,000,000. He was talking about arrears for people, etc. I was asking what the SADC Secretariat payment is for. I did not ask about arrears and allowances.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Chairperson, we had an officer who was seconded to SADC and these payments are for the medical bills which he incurred while there. He got very ill at some point and was hospitalised so these are the medical bills that we have to pay for him. However, SADC has now taken him on as a permanent employee.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Simuusa: I seek clarification on Programme 2, Activity 11 – Revolving Fund for Members of Staff, K500, 000,000. Unless I am mistaken, it is the first time I am seeing an item like this one. What is this Revolving Fund?

Further, Madam, may I have clarification on Programme 3, Activity 02 – Support to the Four (4) Mining Bureaux, K1,350,000,000. Which four mining bureaux are these?

Finally, Madam, I would also like to have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 05 – Support to Members of Staff Living with HIV/AIDS, K150,046,000. I would like to find out whether these are members of staff that have been diagnosed and found to be HIV-sero positive and need help, and if so, what sort of help is it? Are you talking about ARVs, and if so, have they not already been provided for by the Ministry of Health?

Mr M. V. Mwale: As regards Programme 11 –  Revolving Fund , K1,710,850,000, I am sure the hon. Member knows that we have to keep in line to retain our staff. Therefore, the provision will cater for payment of households and car loans to members of staff. This activity was previously budgeted for under office administration.

Madam Chairperson, the provision to Programme 3, Activity 2 – Support to Four (4) Mining Bereaux, K1,350,000,000, is meant for maintenance of the regional mining Bereaux. For example, we have offices in Mkushi, Chipata and Livingstone. Others are Southern, Eastern, Central, North Western and Copperbelt.

Madam Chairperson, on Programme 8, Activity 05 – Support to Members of staff living with HIV/AIDs, K150,046,000, the provision is to cater for purchase of food supplements and medical services for members of staff living with HIV/AIDS.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Simuusa: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3, Activity 2 – Support to Four Mining Bureaux, K1,350,000,000. May I find out which mining Bureaux these are so that I can get benefits from them because that is a lot of money being spent? Which are these Bureaux and where are they and what do they do? I would like to go there and get some benefits.

The Chairperson: I will allow the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to repeat the answer.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Chairperson, these offices are in Mkushi, Kabwe, Solwezi and Livingstone. They only give on-the-spot advice to members of the public about what mining opportunities activities exist in those areas.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Chota: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry it is not a repetition, but I would like to find out about Programme 3, Activity 2 – Support to Four (4) Mining Bureaux, K1,350,000,000. Further, there is an Establishment of Solwezi Bureaux – K260,000,000. I would like to find out what has necessitated the increase from K720,000,000 to K1,350,000,000.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Chairperson, the figures have gone up because the Solwezi Bureaux is a new creation and then there is the provision of facilities for that new creation whose equipment we are still to procure.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Magande: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on Head 14/01 – Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Headquarters as follows:

(a) under 1 – Administration Unit programme – 2, - General Administration, Activity 06 – Support to the Petroleum Committee, by the deletion of K62,347,200 and the substitution therefor of K162,347,200; and

(b) under 4 Information Unit , Programme 10, Policy, Legal and Institutional Reform as follows:

(i) Activity 01 – Review of the Mines and Minerals Act (1995), by the deletion of K100,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K50,000,000; and

(ii) Activity 03 – Review of the Mines and Minerals Act (1995), by the deletion of K100,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K50,000,000.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, strictly, I rise on a matter of procedure. The Standing Orders of Parliament are very clear on how amendments are supposed to be presented. The Standing Orders state and I quote:

“Amendments to the Budget or to any law that is being considered by Parliament will be circulated at least twenty-hours before the date on which they have to be moved”.

Madam Chairperson, as you are aware, this notice of amendment was only received by hon. Members of your Parliament this afternoon at 14:30 hours when they came to the House. I would, therefore, like to seek your guidance …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 22nd February, 2008.