Debates- Tuesday, 26th February, 2008

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Tuesday, 26th February, 2008

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]





Mr Speaker: I need not emphasise the fact that Oath taking is a very important and solemn activity. This should be witnessed in silence. You are the witnesses. As such, when the Oath of Allegiance is taken, you are required to witness that occasion in silence. The usual ‘Hear, hear!’ will be appreciated as a sign of welcome to the new hon. Members of the House.

May the hon. Members who wish to take their seats come to the Table?

The following Members took and subscribed the Oath of Allegiance:

Colonel Jerry Chanda

Mr Daniel Munkombwe

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that the Exhibition on Climate Change, mounted by the British Council in conjunction with the British High Commission, named ‘Zero Carbon City”, was launched on Monday, 25th February, 2008, in the foyer of Parliament Buildings.

As I informed the House on Wednesday, 20th February, 2008, the Exhibition is mounted for five days, from Monday, 25th to Friday, 29th February, 2008. Hon. Members are, therefore, requested to find time to view the exhibits in the main Reception Hall of Parliament Buildings.

The Exhibition is meant for your information as legislators and people’s representatives. Please, make an effort to visit the Exhibition area for your own benefit and for that of the people you represent.

Thank you.



The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Mukuma): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to brief this august House on the reports of the closure of JES Mining Limited.

Mr Speaker, I wish to confirm that JES Mining Limited has been closed and the company is now under liquidation. The Government shares the hon. Member’s concern about the situation that has arisen at JES Mining Limited in Chingola. Through the enquiries so far made, it has been established that the firm has financial problems. There may be a need for further investigations to establish the reputation and viability of the company before it was engaged by Konkola Copper Mine Plc (KCM).

Sir, reports of closure of companies are of grave concern to the Government because of the impact such developments have on employees, the communities in which they operate and, indeed, the districts that view the companies as the drivers of their local economies.

Mr Speaker, JES Mining Limited is a mining company that is specialised in the extraction of copper ores. The company is believed to be owned by three Zimbabwean partners who are John Mctaggart, Eric Routledge and Stuart Robertson. It derives its name from the initials of the three owners. JES Mining Limited has its headquarters in Zimbabwe with branches in Zambia and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC).

Sir, JES Mining Limited started operations in Zambia in 2006 after being awarded a mining contract by KCM to work at Fitwaola Open Pit. The contract was awarded through international competitive bidding. The terms of the contract included extraction of copper oxide ore in sedimentary formations to a depth of 180 metres below the surface.

Mr Speaker, in order to appreciate the circumstances surrounding the reported problems at JES Mining Limited, officials from my Ministry, Mines and Minerals Development, as well as the District Administration in Chingola, convened meetings with the management of JES Mining Limited on the matter.

The information provided by the company clearly shows that they did not have the capacity to operate a big open pit mine such as Fitwaola.

At the time the contract was awarded, JES Mining Limited claimed that they had equipment in Zimbabwe and that the Zimbabwean Government did not allow them to relocate the equipment to Zambia. This forced the company to borrow money from Stanbic Bank, here in Zambia, to buy new equipment.

However, it appears that the equipment they bought was not appropriate for extracting copper from deep underground levels. This was so because as the open pit deepened, the company started to produce fewer quantities of copper ore than planned and the operations became unprofitable.

Due to the losses the company was making, they notified KCM that they were not able to continue with the contract. The company ceased operations in January, 2008, and is now under liquidation.

Mr Speaker, this state of affairs has caused anxiety among the 320 employees who were employed by JES Mining Limited concerning payment of their accrued benefits. Since they were employees of JES Mining Limited, KCM has disassociated itself from this problem and will not play any role in settling the workers’ benefits. However, the information gathered by our team of officials indicates that the company (JES Mining Limited) is up to date with the payment of salaries up to January, 2008. The only payments the workers expect to receive from the company are other benefits such as accrued leave pay, payment in lieu of notice, gratuity for workers who were on contract and redundancies, if any.

As hon. Members of this august House may be aware, the Liquidation Act provides for the payment of preferential creditors before settling workers’ dues. Since the company is already under receivership, the workers will be paid their benefits out of the residue of proceeds from the sale of company equipment after paying preferential creditors. We hope and trust that the liquidators will raise enough money to pay the workers their benefits.

Sir, it should be appreciated that JES Mining Limited is a private company contracted through normal procedures that, unfortunately, failed in its business. Therefore, it would not be proper for anyone to politicise this unfortunate event. It is only reasonable for one to speculate …


Mr Mukuma: … that the abandonment of the contract could be as a result of many factors, including under-quoting for the project they bid for. It is also important to mention that KCM are equally disappointed with the closure of JES Mining Limited because it has adversely affected their copper production. It is our sincere hope that KCM will soon engage another contractor who can absorb most of the affected workers.

Mr Speaker, my Ministry will continue to monitor this matter to ensure that it is settled in the best interest of all.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement which has been made by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Mrs C. J. M. Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, from the Ministerial Statement we have just received, if I heard the hon. Minister correctly, he said the company bought wrong equipment. I would, therefore, like to find out from the hon. Minister how possible it is going to be for the liquidator to sell the wrong equipment to raise money to pay our Zambian brothers and sisters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the equipment is inappropriate and not necessarily wrong. I did not mean that it could not be used for mining. As the open pit deepened, this equipment was not as useful as it was when the open pit was shallow. Therefore, less copper was extracted and Konkola Copper Mines Plc was not supplied as much copper as was arranged with the contractor.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, Sc. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell us whether his Ministry has given sufficient guidelines to the liquidators of JES Mining Company Limited on the entitlements of the 320 employees as a result of the liquidation of the company.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the liquidator has been provided with all the information pertaining to the accrued benefits of all the workers. The operations of the liquidator will be guided by the existing law that clearly states the procedures that the liquidator should follow. Therefore, the liquidator will strictly follow the guidelines in the law.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how this company is going to pay back the money that they borrowed from Stanbic Bank.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, at the moment, the receiver who is selling the assets of JES Mining Company Limited has already been appointed and whatever the liquidator will raise therefrom, the preferential creditors will be Stanbic Bank. They are the ones who will be paid from the proceeds of this sale, after which they will consider paying the workers.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, suppose the liquidator sells all the assets and, at the end of the day, the money is not enough to pay the other beneficiaries, especially the workers? What is the Government intending to do to ensure that the workers get their full benefits.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the procedures that will be followed will be strictly as outlined in the existing law. According to the existing law, if the proceeds from the sale of assets are not enough to pay the workers their benefits, probably the Government will have to open other negotiations. However, as far as the law is concerned, at the moment, there is no provision for the workers to be paid out of any other assets apart from the assets belonging to the company that they were working for.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, I hope the hon. Minister will take advantage of your advice to anticipate questions. I also wish to request that there be permitted multiple answers from this Government from various ministries because this question affects other ministries outside this.

Mr Speaker, how possible is it that the people who were awarding this contract where not aware of the fact that equipment could not be brought in from Zimbabwe at the point of giving the contract. Are we talking about another case of corruption?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! You will withdraw the latter part of your rhetorical question.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I will withdraw the issue referring to corruption. We are fighting corruption. Therefore, is it possible that the people who were awarding the contract were corrupted …


Mr Hachipuka: … or had their hands oiled, Mr Speaker.


Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the ones who were awarding the contract at KCM assured us that the bid was advertised on the international market and that there was competitive bidding. The selection was thoroughly done to arrive at JES Mining Company Limited as contractors. The contractors themselves indicated that they entered into an agreement with the bank to buy new equipment.

Obviously, I am not saying that I was there. However, using business reasoning, I am sure that before the contract was awarded, the company could have sourced for equipment that I am sure they could have indicated in their bid to make it attractive. I want to assure the hon. Member that this was competitive biding and there was nothing like oiling anybody’s hands.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about the procedures of paying the terminal benefits, but has not talked about the formula which will be used. Therefore, I would like to find out from him whether the two months pay contained in the Employment Act will be used or any other formula.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the accrued benefits of the workers have already been calculated and based on the conditions of the contract that the company signed with the employees. Therefore, the formula is guided by the conditions of the contract.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, recently, we were informed that a company in Chingola signed a contract that brought in 648 Indians to build a smelter concentrator when some Zambians cannot find employment. What is the Government doing to ensure that we do not get into these kinds of contracts that fail after a short period of time, workers end up destitute and, as a country, we end up on the losing end?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, we should realise that these are purely business contracts resulting from competitive bidding. Therefore, once the business meets the criteria set by each company, the company has the right to contract whoever has won the bid. It is difficult, therefore, for us to start stipulating conditions that depart from the normal business transactions. I am aware that there are certain companies that may offer bids that are not viable, but the Government has no say in this. That has to be determined by the business transactions. We only hope that the companies will put in sensible bids.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there were any Zimbabwean nationals who came to work in the company, whether have also been affected the same way as their Zambian counterparts in waiting for their benefits, or whether they have been paid their benefits and have gone back to their country of origin.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, the issue at hand is what is happening to our Zambian workers now that this company is winding up.

When we were investigating this particular company, we restricted ourselves to what was happening to the Zambian workers. I am sure that other authorities may also have looked into what was happening to the other workers. However, if there were any Zimbabwean workers in that company, I must say, they were very few.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, it is a fact that Zambia has more expertise in all kinds  of mining activities than Zimbabwe.

Would the hon. Minister, therefore, accept the fact that the sad situation of this company going under receivership and the happenings on the Copperbelt are indicative of the lack of serious oversight role of the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and the Ministry of Labour and Social Security?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, it is true that as a country, Zambia has more mining expertise than Zimbabwe. I do not know whether there are any Zambian companies that participated in the bid or not. However, if there are, it means they did not win the bid and a Zimbabwean company won the bid instead.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister clarify whether the Zambian people have a golden share in KCM, through Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines–Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH), where, clearly, a strong hand of the Government can be seen.

Having stated that, at the adjudication and award of the contract, the diplomatic relationship between Zambia and Zimbabwe would have been best described as excellent, extra-ordinary and of prime potential. What is this Government doing, through my honourable Friend, to check on the Zimbabwean company that owns property, but is not allowed to bring it into neighbouring Zambia where the diplomatic relations are at their best. What effort was made to check that fact because it seems to me that there was a problem?  Could the hon. Minister clarify that?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, I think that sometimes, we have to differentiate between purely business transactions and political dealings.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Here, we are talking of a very small contractor and not a company such as KCM, in which the Government has shares. I do not believe that the Government should go to the extent of looking into the position of a three-man company and involve itself in such deals. I think the Government was right to trust and believe in the officers who were appointed to evaluate the company.

Mr Speaker, I still feel that the level at which the transactions took place was not necessary for the Government to intervene.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, contracting of core business activities such as production in ZCCM times was a preserve of the mother company. These activities are quite risky. This is why the mother companies are running away so that the activities are priced lowly to maximise profits.

Can the hon. Minister tell this nation how they intend to protect the Zambian worker to avoid these occurrences?

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, to begin with, the Government has put in place certain guidelines concerning investors who are coming to Zambia. In this case, we are talking about investors such as KCM, Mopani Copper Mines Plc, etc. Small companies such as GES Mining Ltd will operate within the laws that already exist. In terms of who should be engaged and what conditions of service should be given, the Ministry of labour and Social Security has put in place laws and regulations that should be followed by this particular company. In addition, the workers in these companies are under a union and whatever happens, their conditions are negotiated by the union.

Presently, there are two unions dealing with the mines that adequately represent the workers. Therefore, from the labour point of view, we do not need to take any further steps other than what we have put in place so far.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, self liquidation sometimes is used by crooked businessmen to run away from paying tax and sometimes recoup profits. Has the hon. Minister ascertained how much money was externalised during the operations of this company and check whether this company was genuinely going into liquidation?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, when there is an event of this nature, there are various arms of the Government that are active. I know that within our Government system, there are certain institutions that always check to ensure that such a thing is not the case with JES Mining Company Limited. So, I believe that institutions such as the Zambia Revenue Authority and others must have already checked to ensure that there is no foul play. As far as we are concerned, we moved in to look into the labour issues.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister state to this august House why the Government did not move in to stop this contract the moment the company was stopped from bringing in the equipment from Zimbabwe rather than allowing them to borrow from Zambian companies?

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, as far is we are concerned, there is nothing wrong with the alternative of buying new equipment. Therefore, if a company has not been allowed to bring in equipment and decides to buy new equipment, as far as the business transaction is concerned, in my opinion, this is in order. So, there was no need for the Government to step in when there was no cause to do that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The honourable House is, indeed, concerned about this matter. However, I want to draw your attention to the existence of an Act of Parliament, obviously, passed in this House which the hon. Minister referred to. It stipulates quite clearly how the creditors of different categories are treated in sharing the profits of liquidation, including the employees of a company in liquidation. We have volumes right in this Chamber and I would advise hon. Members to look up that piece of legislation and see what it offers, particularly to the workers.




172. Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga) (on behalf of Dr Kalumba) (Chienge) asked the Minister of Education when Chienge District would have a boarding high school.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the Government is currently concentrating its efforts on building Ponde Day High School in Chienge District. The contract has already been awarded and works are expected to commence as soon as the contract has been signed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister confirm whether the Ministry has abandoned the plans to build boarding schools in the country?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister is free to provide what we refer to as a bonus answer. However, this particular one refers to Chienge Constituency. The hon. Minister has said that construction will commence as soon as the contracts are signed.

The hon. Minister is free to answer that question.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the Ministry is currently building some boarding schools in the country.

I thank you, Sir.


173. Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives:

(a) when the Ministry would rehabilitate houses for veterinary officers at Munyenze, Moonzwe and Nakasangwe in Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency; and

(b) when veterinary officers would be sent to Munyenze and Moonzwe in Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, the Ministry has acknowledged the poor condition of staff houses countrywide, including Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency. Rehabilitation of these houses will commence as soon as the Government disburses capital funds. However, it is expected that there will be a reduction in the Budget in 2008. This will jeopardise the rehabilitation exercise.

Sir, posting of staff to vacant veterinary stations will be undertaken as soon as Cabinet Office approves the recent staff employment/recruitment list.

However, veterinary officers will only be posted to well-established camps. Currently, there are no staff houses at Munyenze and Moonzwe in Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency. Therefore, veterinary staff will be deployed to these areas after new staff houses have been constructed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, is the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives confirming that they are not serious about the eradication of cattle diseases in our country? Bweengwa Parliamentary Constituency is one of the areas with a high population of cattle.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, contrary to the assertion that we are not serious as a Government, we mentioned that houses were going to be built for veterinary staff officers. It is only after we have built the houses that we are going to send staff to Bweengwa.

I wish to inform the hon. Member that we have plans to build 120 houses for veterinary officers and rehabilitate fifty-eight houses that are in a poor condition. I am pretty sure his constituency is one of those to benefit from the 120 houses. We are very serious about this issue.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the Minister’s answer qualified his statement by saying that the Budget will be reduced this year and will affect the construction of houses. I would like to get an assurance that something will be done about Bweengwa since there is already an outbreak of Foot and Mouth disease in the area?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, I have mentioned that 120 houses will be built. Therefore, the location of w the houses will only be decided after the budget has been approved. At the moment, I cannot give a concrete answer on where these houses are going to be located because the Budget has not yet been approved.

Mr Speaker, for the fight against Foot and Mouth Disease (FMD) he is referring to, as a Ministry, three weeks ago, we procured 50,000 doses of vaccines. Currently, veterinary officers are in Monze, Sesheke, Senanga and Mongu vaccinating the animals. We have already pushed another request for 1,000 vaccines and we have requested for more doses worth US$142,000. These are expected to be in the country as soon as possible. So, we are very concerned about the fight against FMD.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what strategic plan he has put in place to ensure that all the houses, including those in Bweengwa and Isoka West are rehabilitated.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, firstly, there was pre-planning before we came to the actual planning within the limits of the resources available in the Ministry. We asked each district to identify houses that needed rehabilitation and districts that needed new houses. That is the strategy we used before we came to the actual planning. That is how we arrived at the figure of 120 houses to be built and fifty-eight rehabilitated.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there are any immediate plans for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to privatise the Veterinary Department for it to be responsive to farmers.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, currently, the Department of Veterinary is one of the departments under the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. As said earlier, we are taking care of these departments. However, as a Government, we have not yet failed for us to release the department into the hands of the private sector. Since we are able to manage it, we cannot go that far.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, since there has been some pre-planning, can the hon. Minister give us the deadline for the construction of the houses. There is an open statement of planning and planning, but when will the construction be completed so that we know exactly when the veterinary officers are moving in?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, currently, we are sitting to approve the Budget. First and foremost, we do not know the exact date we are going to approve the Budget. Equally, we cannot know the exact day when the disbursement of the funds will be. Therefore, I cannot commit my Ministry to stating the exact date we are going to complete the construction.
I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, in view of the pressure to fight disease in the Southern Province, has this Ministry considered renting houses that are available in Bweengwa. I know that other ministries have rented, for example, houses for teachers from landlords within the respective areas. Has the Ministry considered renting houses from landlords within Bweengwa before the Budget is approved and before the houses are built?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, the absence of the houses in the said constituency does not mean that services are not being offered in that constituency. Bweengwa Constituency is one of the constituencies in Monze District. In Monze we have staff who have been contracted to provide services to Bweengwa Constituency. We are still providing extension services, but I cannot commit the Ministry to renting houses for staff since we are still offering the extension services from Monze.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if there are any plans of sending a vehicle to the Mkushi Veterinary office.

Mr Speaker: The question is off the mark.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, we all know that by 31st March, the Budget should be approved. If the Budget is not approved by 31st March we shall have a Constitutional crisis. Can the hon. Minister specify when the houses will be built rather than hiding behind the in the issue of not knowing when the Budget will be approved.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Before the hon. Minister answers. There is no Constitutional crisis that will arise if the Budget is not approved by March 31st, none.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mrs Sayifwanda): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for that protection.

For sure, that provision is not there. My Ministry cannot promise this House that the construction of the houses in Bweengwa will be completed tomorrow. Rome was not built in a day. There is a process for doing things. As the Deputy Minister has correctly informed this House, we have to follow procedure. Therefore, when funds are available, definitely, we will look into this issue.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


174. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Vice-President:

(a) how many work stoppages occurred from 2001 to 2007, due to non-payment of allowances in the following Government ministries:

(i) Education;
(ii) Health; and 
(iii) Justice; and

(b) what measures the Government had taken to reduce work stoppages at the above ministries.

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Malwa): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that with respect to the Ministry of Justice, there was an incident of work stoppage involving state advocates between 22nd March,  2006 and 5th May, 2006 due to demands for better conditions of service that included an increase in non-private practising allowances.

With regard to the Ministry of Health, Mr Speaker, the Ministry recorded six ‘go slows’ over housing allowance payments and no work stoppages because the health workers are considered essential workers who are not supposed to go on strike.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the Ministry of Education, work stoppages over housing allowances were recorded as follows:

Province        Work Stoppages    

Northern          5       
Eastern           1 which only affected Chipata Central  
Luapula          None       
Copperbelt      None      
South Province    None     
Western          1 in 2006 which affected teachers in Senanga District over housing allowances 
Central            4 this was during the period under review over rural hardship claims and housing allowance
Lusaka            5 over housing allowances during the period under review
North-Western   None

Mr Speaker, with regard to part (b) of the question, the Government took steps to address the issues of non-private practicing allowances by revising it upwards from K1,300,000 to K3,640,000 per month for the lowest paid state advocates and from K2,300,000 to K6,440,000 per month for the heads of departments. The Ministry of Justice has since not experienced any work stoppages relating to conditions of service.

Mr Speaker, as for work stoppages regarding non-payment of housing allowances in the Ministries of Health and Education, the Government of the Republic of Zambia is now disbursing funds to provinces on time and there has been increased dialogue between the Government and the union representatives.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, with regard to the mentioned work stoppages, the Government has not been paying the workers on time. I would like to find out whether there was any disciplinary action taken on those employees or not.

The Vice-President (Mr Rupiah Banda): Mr Speaker, there has been no disciplinary action taken against those employees.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government takes stock of the man hours lost as a result of work stoppages as well as remedial measures to avoid a recurrence of similar actions.

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. Member that the Government does take stock of the man hours lost during work stoppages. That is why we have taken the necessary measures to ensure that the frequency of such incidents is reduced. Payments are made on time and dialogue between workers and the Government has increased, resulting in the reduction of work stoppages.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how many of the work stoppages from that tabulation were legal and how many were not.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, some of them were obviously illegal, but many of them were based on genuine grounds such as late payments and so forth. This is why the Government has taken the necessary measures to reduce these work stoppages. As you can see from the statistics and as I said earlier, we are getting fewer strikes from the workers.

Hon. Opposition Members: How many?

The Vice-President: As for the number, I am not able to give it to you now. I wish that question had been asked earlier.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, the answer by the Vice-President shows that certain provinces are paid housing allowances on time. Why is it that provinces such as the Copperbelt are not paid on time and that is why there are work stoppages?

The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I have already stated that there were grounds for some of the work stoppages, but as you can see, the number has reduced. This means that people are now paid on time.

I thank you, Sir.

_____________ {mospagebreak}



VOTE 27 ─ (Public Service Management Division ─ K527,484,394,622).

(Consideration resumed)

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended last Friday, I was talking about the lack of seriousness by the Civil Service. I was saying that you can go to an office today and you would be referred to office No. G7. The following day, you are referred to No. S3 and so on and so forth. The civil servants have stopped looking for files and people have to do this themselves when they go to their offices. What has happened to the old system whereby you entered an office, sat down and your file was drawn?

Madam Chairperson, as retirees, we cannot plan our future because we cannot get our benefits on time.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: All the delays emanate from the Civil Service. If a file is not missing, then some information in it would be missing. Can somebody do something about the Civil Service because we want to enjoy life in Zambia? I do not want to be turned into an office orderly when I go to an office to look for information. If I am sent from one office to another, it means that I have been turned into an office orderly. It is the job of the civil servants to run around and look for the files. They are civil servants and not ‘civil masters’. When we, the retirees, go into an office, we are the masters and therefore, every person must be treated as one when he or she goes into a civil servant’s office.

Madam Chairperson, maybe we should not blame the civil servants so much, but the system. We should blame the system because the conditions of service for civil servants are – for lack of a better word – horrible.

As a result, civil servants are so frustrated that they take their frustrations out on the public instead of directing them to the Government. As a result of their poor salaries, whenever someone goes to their offices, they start asking for money for a drink. Those that get housing allowance do not get it on time and it is not even enough. How do you expect a Permanent Secretary to rent a house in Lusaka at K1.2?

Madam, K1.2 million is only enough to rent a house in Kanyama, Mtendere and Kalingalinga. Since Permanent Secretaries want to live in areas such as Kabulonga, Woodlands or Sunningdale, they are going to do a lot of things to public funds in order to live comfortably. Therefore, the system is also to blame for the inertia and arrogance in the Civil Service. You have led the civil servants to do what they want when they want, especially with our funds.

Madam Chair, the Government should reveal the housing policy so that we stop selling Government houses. The sale of Government houses has stalled the transfer of civil servants from one town to the other because there is no accommodation since Government houses were sold. Even if you want to bring a civil servant to Lusaka from Kitwe, there is nowhere for him or her to live. We have just been told here that civil servants cannot afford to rent houses. Therefore, how do you expect the Civil Service to run?

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mrs Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, recruitment of staff is also a problem. We have just been told by the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives that for them to recruit, Cabinet Office must give them a green light. However, for Cabinet Office to give a green light to the Ministry, the Treasury must also give a green light to Cabinet Office. How are we going to work and develop this country when, in the meantime, nobody from Cabinet  Office or the Treasury has requested the Ministry to go to Bweengwa and find out what Hon. Hamududu is talking about. Does he really need houses or not? They just make decisions from their offices without really knowing the situation on the ground.

Therefore, we are requesting the civil servants to be field workers as well so that when we talk about the problems that we face in our constituencies, they should be able to understand. At the moment, the Civil Service is at a stand still because no civil servant can move due to a lack of transport and other allowances. I know that the Government has enough money to give the civil servants if they want to tour Katombola Constituency to check on the roads, agriculture and education. Therefore, I do not want to believe these stories.

Madam Chair, Lusaka is depending on provinces while provinces depend on districts that have no transport because the vehicles that are bought by the Government are bought for Lusaka. How do you expect the people to reach Moomba to get the information for the Ministry of Education? As a result, the District Education Officer is going to indicate in his report that he has been to Moomba, send the information to Lusaka and the hon. Minister is going to read the statement in this House.

Madam Chair many times in this House, we have said that the statements being heard are incorrect, but the hon. Minister has never made any effort to convince us on what is correct. He is not aware that the information is not correct because as far as he is concerned, the information the officers gave him is correct.

In 2006, if you remember very well, there was a statement on my constituency. I asked why Makoli could not be turned into a farming block. The answer that came from the then hon. Minister, Hon. Katoka, was that Makoli could not be turned into a farming block because it was only 200 hectares. I then asked the hon. Minister how Makoli could be 200 hectares when my farm alone was 566 hectares? He said, “well, that is the information I got from the officers”.

Madam Chair, I expected the hon. Minister of Agriculture to say, “let us go to Makoli and find out if it is really 200 hectares or more”. Unfortunately, the story died there and to date it has not been followed up. I have to revive it again. Therefore, we need to work very hard to awaken the Civil Service.

I thank you, Madam.

The Chairperson: Before I allow Mr Matongo to speak, let me state that there are heads that we are looking at. Let us not have cross country debate. If you have no issues to debate on a particular head, wait until the actual head comes. We cannot be touching everywhere because we will not make good progress.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Chair, in the first place, I believe that this particular division is the engine that supervises the Public Service Commission to bring about the efficient running of the Government. I also believe that this is the institution that makes recommendations, appointments and assessments for job evaluation and promotions for civil servants.

Madam Chair, I stand here to support the vote. However, in supporting the vote, I would like to make fundamental statements relating to good governance, liberal democratic, pursuance of governance and a democratic society.

Madam Chair, I will not go too far on this basis. Without a strong, knowledgeable and trusted Public Service, you cannot run a democratic institution and it does not matter which party is on your right in Government. Countries that have excelled in a liberal democracy have had a strong and Public Service that is not tampered with, except with good reasons, and disciplined public servants.

Madam Chair, here in Africa, for instance Kenya, despite the current problems, that has praised herself of having a public service where you cannot be superseded except if there are good reasons for one to be superseded in promotion. Botswana is also another example.

To talk of Canada or India will be going too far because even here, we have our own demonstrated local government structures such as the one you will find in the Royal Establishment of the Western Province. There is a reason in those institutions I have given, for a public servant to be superseded.

Madam Chair, I want to state that the One Party State introduced a mixture of politics, public service and diplomacy; a hotchpotch arrangement. Well, that was the One Party State and it was only for seventeen years, but it did not kill the public servant. We are now sixteen years into a multi party system and we are still struggling with regard to who should be what in the Public Service. It takes a lot of time to just find a Permanent Secretary. Surely, in a well oiled system, these things become automatic. I demonstrate here that there is always room for fast track public servants in a liberal democratic economic institution such as we are trying to build in this country.

Madam Chair, you can get a good lecturer from the University of Zambia or from the colleges, but please do not make them Permanent Secretaries. They must learn the ropes of the General Orders, but compared to a routine civil servant, there is always a fast track.

I would like to state that we must grasp the situation and continuously believe that who ever  wants a job, be it in the Public Service, Diplomacy or elsewhere, there must be specific standards that must guide the appointing authority on who should be appointed. Therein, comes the importance of the Public Service Management Division. To me, this is a safety net whereby there is complete scrutiny of one’s Curriculum Vitae to differentiate quality from quantity, experience from inexperience, and minimum academic qualifications from nothing at all except political noise making at public rallies.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: Like Mwila.

Mr Matongo: We are not going to have a Public Service that is for people from the archives. You can do so for your politics. The Public Service must be left for competent, trained, tested and above all, men and women who are non partisan.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Public Service simply should be outside of ministers of the Government, deputy ministers and the rest. Yes, in civilised democratic nations, a President is free to appoint as Ambassador, whoever he or she likes. I agree with that, but where the President starts appointing, all ambassadors; 100 per cent of them, we must have the courage to say, “Mr President, you can do with 25 per”. The American President does that, and yet he is the most powerful man in the world.  One of the reasons we cannot succeed in any international institutions is that we have people in the Foreign Service, which is part of the Public Service, coming from everywhere and going anywhere.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: We go there as a people. I appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and, indeed, the Cabinet that it is not just a question of recommending some person from Chamuka, Mungule or, indeed, Pemba, Hamagowa to be Permanent Secretary. As for ministers, he can pick anybody he likes because we shall deal with them here when it comes to checks and balances.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: As we are inclined to think they believe in certain things. The Public Service must be sacrosanct and well informed. I am very pleased that a particular Chapter in the Draft Constitution has devoted itself to how the Public Service will be. I hope that we shall work on those bases.

Madam Chairperson, I do hope the hon. Ministers can hear that the Public Service should have a tradition of appointing based on a track record. By the time a person becomes Secretary to the Cabinet, he or she should be so well skilled and knowledgeable about the Civil Service that when a young minister is appointed, he or she will be literally walked through on how to prepare a cover memo. He will walk him or her through how to deal with specifics. A minister can be appointed from anywhere, and I have no problems with that. Today, I wonder how many Permanent Secretaries can stand up and explain to a new hon. Minister the way things are done in the Public Service such that when the hon. Minister is looking at that person, the vibes, as I call them, flow. He knows that he is sitting behind a knowledgeable person, not a Permanent Secretary who says, “hon. Minister, you mean you do not know general order number so and so?” That is not the business of a minister. We need public servants with courage. They must express the convictions of their courage based on the righteous knowledge of the rules of the Government.

Why is this division allowing wrong appointments of District Governors, …

Hon. Opposition Member: Commissioners

Mr Matongo: … District Commissioners, when the President came here to prescribe who should be appointed? Why should they accept a wrong appointment? They should be able to advise the President. There are too many people hanging around the President, Vice-President and ministers looking for jobs. It is the role of the Permanent Secretary in the Public Service management Division to state the qualifications. If a person meets these qualifications, then the hon. Minister for Presidential Affairs can go ahead and advise the President to appoint. Otherwise, there should be no appointment.


Mr Matongo: It is the duty of all Zambians to revert the Public Service to what it was in 1964 to 1972. However, trouble started in 1973 and all hell broke loose in 1991.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, we are talking about change. I have said to these men and women on your right that they are better than most that I have met. Can they improve further, before this group takes over?

Hon. Government Member: Never!

Mr Matongo: You will have to be replaced one time or another because you will not live indefinitely.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwila: Bwekeshapo.

Mr Matongo: We believe that nothing lives forever and that what we are advising you here is in our interest. Hon.  Ministers, if you cannot listen to us, you will walk away from where you are faster than you can imagine because we are capable of denouncing …

The Chairperson: Order! You only speak through the Chair.

Mr Mwila: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Matongo: Madam Chair, we are capable of denouncing them at the top of our voices. We have a certain amount of intelligence and knowledge. Whether the President likes a particular minister or not, he listens to what people outside say about all the ministers. Therefore, you have to be careful. That is a public office. That is a Matongo Office.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, may I further advise those who may come here and think that they know better, having been all over the place and hanging onto the wings of authority that …

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Matongo: … we on this side are here to serve the people. We know the good ministers because we can evaluate. We also know those who need our help and we are always available.

Madam Chairperson, finally, but not in conclusion, I would like to state that the Government must take my debate of two weeks ago seriously. The distortions in the salaries of the Public Service are an embarrassment and a source of conflict. We need to sit down to establish a complete modus operandi of salary structuring in this country. Hon. Ministers are embarrassed and so is everybody else. Let us appoint a Salaries Review Commission to look at the entire salary restructuring. How do you feel about a managing director who increases his or her salary? It is in the Auditor General’s Report and the hon. Minister cannot talk about it because money is power in Zambia today.

I would like to tell you my good friends on the right of the Chair that we mean well. We are knowledgeable. We are not here to fight you, but to establish a system that the Zambian people can be very proud of.

When you look at us here, could we not be hon. Ministers if we chose to?

Mr Muntanga: Why not?

Mr Matongo: Why not?


Mr Matongo: Why not? If you think there is no quality, then look at yourself, as even the way you look means no quality.


The Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The Chair will not allow that kind of debate. We are not here to debate looks of individuals. We are here to debate policies and the work of the Government.


The Chairperson: Order! Can you stick to what you are debating, the Public Service Management Division and not the individuals and what they look like?


Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, I will go back to that situation. We need quality and when we are debating, certain people make certain comments. This is the very quality that we do not need in the political arena. Let alone in the Public Service.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to quickly refer to some issues that were raised on the Floor of the House.

Hon. Muyanda, the great ‘Gwemberian’ hon. …

Mr Mubika: Uko!

Mr Mpombo: … Member of Parliament …


Mr Mpombo: … talked about the high levels of indiscipline in the Civil Service; the lackadaisical performance.


Mr Mpombo: I would like to assure the House that the Government is taking appropriate measures to address this situation. This is because we believe that if we have to deliver, we need to have an efficient Civil Service.

I would also like to say that there is a very big improvement in the quality of the Civil Service considering the fact that whatever efforts Zambia makes on the economic front, it is the work of our civil servants that is involved.

Mr Shakafuswa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mpombo: Whatever achievement we have made, we have not done it without the active participation of the Civil Service. Therefore, they are doing a very good job. I would like to assure you that we will continue to prime the pump of discipline in order to achieve that goal.

I would also like to say that the Government is in the process of developing a Civil Service Code of Ethics in order to address the concerns that have been raised.

With regard to the issue of terminal benefits, all Government institution are under a directive to ensure that they start working on this important aspect of retirement. We have put mechanisms in place that will enable us inform people who are about to retire.

Madam Chairperson, let me comment on Hon. Davies Mwila’s contribution. Honestly, the debate from Hon. Mwila was quite flabbergasting.


Mr Mpombo: I would like to say that flabbergasting is not an insult. You can look it up in the dictionary.


Mr Mpombo: When people stand up and urge the unions and teachers to rise against the Government in order to press for their rights in terms of their wages, ...

Mr D. Mwila: It is their right!

Mr Mpombo: … we are setting a very dangerous precedent because we, as hon. Members of Parliament, must not behave like warlords.

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Madam.


Mr Mpombo: We are here to ensure that we address these issues in a very honest manner.

Madam Chairperson, what I am saying is that this country can go on fire. Fire can engulf this country, if we allow issues that will plunge the country into irretrievable social and economic brouhaha.


Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, I would like to assure Hon. Musokotwane, Hon Matongo and everybody who has spoken that we have taken serious note of the issues that have been raised. However, I must advise that we refrain from acts of political shadowboxing.


Mr Mpombo: I would also like to state that there has been too much unsolicited for political advice. I think, let us tone down our rhetoric. We are one nation. We are one people. We must be united at all times. Therefore, let us avoid politics that tend to antagonise each other.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear, Boma!


Vote 27/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/03 – (Public Service Management Division – Human Resources Information and Planning – K2,553,867,134).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 03 – Management of Information Systems – K35,786,500, last year we had allocated K164,280,000, but there is a big reduction this year to the tune of K34,786,500. Why?

Mr Munkombwe looking for his seat on the Opposition side.

Hon. Opposition Members: He is lost!

Mr Chimbaka escorts Mr Munkombwe to his seat on the Government side.


The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Chimbaka, can you go back to your seat.

Mr Lubinda: Rock of ages!


The Chairperson: Order! Can we move on? No hon. Member is supposed to get lost …


The Chairperson: … and no hon. Member is asked to help another.


The Chairperson: Order! Mr D. Mwila asked a question and referred to Programme 7, Activity 03 – Management of Information System – K35,786,500, hon. Minister.

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 03 – Management of Information System – K35,786,500, there is inadequacy in this year’s Budget provision because of budgetary constraints.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 7, Activity 01 - Establishment Control and Planning – K118,192,000. I believe planning and control is very important in human resource. Therefore, I would like to find out why there is such a big reduction from K502,100,016 last year to K118,192,000 this year. Since we are talking about planning and control, what is the Government doing about it and why is there that reduction?

Mr Mpombo: Madam Chairperson, we had a massive training programme last year. Therefore, most of the training aspects were taken care of, but we have to maintain the vote just in case there is something that we need to impress upon.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 27/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/05 – (Public Service Management Division – Technical Services – K7,337,085,257).

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, I seek clarification on Programme 7, Activity 05 – Negotiations and Collective Agreements – K539,148,685. Last year, we budgeted for K535,907,000 and almost the same amount has been budgeted for this year. I need an explanation for this.

The Chairperson: Order! I think certain questions, hon. Members, simply delay us. If you ask on a big reduction relating to a total allocation, it makes some kind of reason for asking. When people are repeating the same amount, they are the people who implemented that particular activity, why should they then increase or decrease? Those are the questions you should ask not when the figure comes as it is. Some of these questions you are asking delay us. Can we make progress. Hon. Mwila, can you please take that into account.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, …

Hon. Government Members: Sit down!

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 31 – (Ministry of Justice – K375,636,736,743).

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver a Policy Statement on my Ministry’s Budget.

Madam Chairperson, my Ministry’s goal is to provide efficient and effective legal services to Government-related institutions and the general public. We also facilitate the administration of justice and promote the observance of the rule of law, human rights and good governance. Before I explain the key activities that my Ministry will be involved in 2008, I wish to say a few words about the staffing levels in my Ministry.

Madam, in the past, my Ministry experienced a critical shortage of personnel, particularly State Advocates. However, I am now pleased to inform this august House that my Ministry has managed to attract, recruit and retain a good number of lawyers to the extent that the establishment of lawyers at the entry point is almost filled. The Ministry has also been flooded with applications from lawyers from the private sector who would like to join the Ministry. These applications are currently being considered. The Directorate of Public Prosecutions which, for a long time, had a shortage of lawyers now almost has a full compliment of lawyers at the entry point.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, because of the favourable staffing position, the Ministry is now in the process of deploying lawyers at its offices in Kitwe, Ndola, Kabwe and Livingstone to beef up the establishment.

Madam Chairperson, this state of affairs is due to the sponsorship of learner legal practitioners to the Zambia Institute Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE), which we have undertaken in the past. However, we still have a problem of retaining senior lawyers. To address this issue, we shall endeavour to provide incentives to lawyers.

Madam Chairperson, my Ministry will be involved in the following activities:

 Attorney General’s Department

(a) Legislative Drafting Department

This department will continue with its role of drafting Bills for this august House and providing some services to the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) so that we can come up with a durable constitution. This department will draft several Bills to implement the 2008 Legislative Programme of the Ministry.

Madam Chairperson, we have also commenced work on the revision of the Laws of Zambia whose last edition was in 1995, and that is the edition which we have.

(b) Civil Litigation, Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Department

The Civil Litigation, Debt Collection, and Prerogative of Mercy Department will continue with its role of advising the State and the President on the prerogative of mercy and recovering civil debt and instituting legal proceedings.

The Directorate of Public Prosecutions

The Directorate of Public Prosecutions will continue with its role of prosecuting cases and drawing up of a Prosecutions Manual which will contain a Code of Conduct for State Advocates and the development of prosecutors. This department will also continue with its decentralisation programme because we need to establish offices in the provinces and in some selected districts.

Administrator General and Official Receiver Department

This department will continue with its role of providing receivership roles and managing deceased estates and estates in bankruptcy and liquidations.

       International Law and Agreements Department

The International Law and Agreements Department will continue with its mandate of advising the Government on various international agreements and treaties and will participate in negotiations both at bilateral and multilateral levels of various agreements.

Grant-Aided Institutions

Grant-aided institutions under my Ministry will continue with their roles. The following institutions receive grants through the Ministry of Justice:

(a) Legal Aid Board
The Legal Aid Board will provide legal aid to the indigent or under privileged in society. The Board will be fully operational this year and there is a provision in the Budget for that.

  (b) The Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education 

The Zambia Institute of advanced Legal education will continue with its role of providing national, regional and international Post Graduate Legal Studies.
(c) The Zambia Law Development Commission

The Zambia Law Development Commission, which reviews and reforms our laws and simplifies them, will continue with its statutory mandate so that we can improve our legal system.

  (d) The Judicial Complaints Authority

The Judicial Complaints Authority will continue with its role of receiving complaints from members of the public concerning mal-practices that may be committee by judicial officers.

 Governance Secretariat 

The Ministry of Justice has a Governance Secretariat that has been established pursuant to the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), which will look at and monitor our governance programme. It will also continue conducting research and advising the Government generally on matters of governance.

  Key Governance Programmes

Madam Chairperson, we are also involved in the following key governance programmes:

(a)      Constitutional Review Process

On this programme, we have already established the National Constitutional Conference which is already sitting and we will continue sitting after we have adjourned as Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: The country is on its way to coming up with a good constitution that will stand the taste of time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: The NCC has taken on board relevant and willing stakeholders from a cross section of society and it is all inclusive.

Mr Kambwili: Questionable.

 Mr Kunda: We salute all the Zambians who are participating in the process and those who have chosen to participate from outside the conference. I would like to appeal to all well meaning Zambians and Members of Parliament to support in the NCC.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda:   The African Peer Mechanism 

The African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) is an instrument voluntarily acceded to by member States of the African Union as an African self-monitoring mechanism. Zambia has acceded to this important instrument.

The mandate of the APRM is to ensure that the policies and practices of participating member States of the AU conform to the agreed political, economic and corporate governance values, codes and standards contained in the declaration of democracy, political economic and corporate governance.

The APRM is the mutually agreed instrument for self-monitoring by participating member governments. The declaration of democracy, political, economic and corporate governance was adopted by the NEPAD Heads of State and Government together with the APRM and it is one of the AU instruments.

The primary purpose of the APRM is to foster the adoption of policies, standards and practices that lead to political stability, high economic growth, sustainable development and accelerated sub-regional and continental economic integration through sharing of experiences reinforcement of successful and best practices, including identifying deficiencies and assessing the needs for capacity building.

Principles of APRM

Every review exercise carried out under the authority of the mechanism must be technically competent, credible and free of political manipulation. These stipulations, together, constitute the core guiding principles of the mechanism.

Participation in the African Peer Review Process

Participation in the process is open to all States of the African Union, after adoption of the Declaration on Democracy, Political, Economic and Corporate Governance by the African Union.

The process entails an undertaking to submit to periodic peer reviews, as well as to facilitate such reviews, and be guided by agreed parameters for good political governance and good economic and corporate governance.

Leadership and Management Structure

The operations of the APRM are directed and managed by a panel of eminent persons relevant to the work of APRM. In addition, members of the panel must be persons of high moral stature who have demonstrated commitment to the ideals of Pan Africanism.

APRM Process

The process entails periodic reviews of the policies and practices of participating States to ascertain progress being made towards achieving mutually agreed goals and compliance with agreed political, economic and corporate governance values, codes and standards as outlined in the declaration.

The Peer Review Process is intended to spur countries to consider seriously, the impact of domestic policies, not only on internal political stability and economic growth, but also on neighbouring countries. It will promote mutual accountability as well as compliance with best practices.

Madam Chairperson, bearing in mind that African countries are at different levels of development, on joining the APRM, a country will be assessed (the base review) and a timetable (programme of action) for effecting progress towards achieving the agreed standards and goals must be drawn up by the State in question, taking into account the particular circumstances of that State.

The APRM process goes through a number of stages. At the end of the day the idea is to review the entire governance spectrum and suggest ways of improving on governance.

Madam, the APRM has been properly budgeted for in the Budget we are considering and since this activity has been budgeted for, we shall proceed expeditiously with preliminary steps that will include the immediate appointment of a National Governing Council (NGC). We are actively working on this aspect.

Hon. Members may wish to know that we have so far held brainstorming sessions with stakeholders, including civil society. Dr Gracia Machel who is the Chairperson of the Panel of Eminent Persons for the Zambian Review visited us last year to acquaint herself on what we are doing regarding the process. We are now geared to move the process forward.

It is important that we should also hold a seminar for hon. Members to acquaint them with the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) and we shall request for permission for this activity to take place.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, these are the activities my Ministry will be involved in.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Ministry of Justice.

I stand to support the vote on the Ministry of Justice, but in doing so, I wish to state that the pronouncements by the hon. Minister that the National Constitutional Commission (NCC) is a broadly represented body is mischievous and not true.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! No!

Mr Kambwili: You must be aware that we debated in this House and stakeholders out there have stated that the NCC is not broadly represented.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, through you let me justify what I am saying. This Act provides for choosing of prominent people in each province.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the speaker who is debating so strongly in order to talk against an Act of this House which was passed in this House with him assenting to it unanimously? There was no one who acted against it by calling for a division or anything. The speaker is on record in Luanshya of having gone and addressed a public meeting where he agreed that come what may, he will attend the NCC because it a legal forum. He is also on record of canvassing the other members of PF to attend the NCC and now he has turned round, talking against those he was canvassing to attend. Is he in order? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Wachepa saana Jonas!

The Chairperson: Order! The Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has raised a point of order and his concern is on the point raised by Mr Kambwili, hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, that the Member of Parliament debating was part of the passing of the NCC Act in this Parliament and he originally was in favour. The Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Finance has cited incidents where he believes or knows that Mr Kambwili did advocate for the attendance of the NCC by Members of his political party.

The guidance from the Chair is that the issue of NCC, as introduced today in Parliament, was for the hon. Minister to put on record or inform this House that the NCC is one of the activities that the Government is undertaking. Therefore, it should not be a way of opening up debate on the NCC. You may refer to it in the way it is budgeted for, but the Chair will not allow an open debate on the NCC. It is something we have gone through as a House, and it is, indeed, an issue that has been overtaken by events. Normally, in this House, we should debate issues that the House will not change at all.


The Chairperson: Order!

Therefore, Mr Kambwili can debate in reference to the NCC only in the manner that it has been budgeted for. He may be unhappy or happy, but he will not open up debate. It is not part of our parliamentary procedures and traditions to debate the same things that we have debated before.

Mr Kambwili can continue his debate and consider the guidance of the Chair.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we are not going to waste money on the NCC whose preoccupation is to bar people from standing for presidency.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam, the MMD Government is on record …

Mr Shakafuswa: Question!

Mr Kambwili: … through their spokesperson that they are going to discuss the age of presidents. It will only be Zambia in the history of the world that will come up with a law that determines how old a president must be and they must be ashamed of themselves!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Public money must be accounted for.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We are allocating money for the NCC to come up with a Constitution that will stand a test of time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, issues of wanting to bar people from standing as presidents are retrogressive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, whoever is thinking of introducing draconian laws in the Constitution must be ashamed of themselves.


The Chairperson: Order! Order! This is, again, to guide the House. The Chair must listen carefully and try to get what you Members are saying. The issue that the Member is bringing is the issue on NCC which is an issue to be debated there. Whether people manage or not, it is not the issue for this House at the moment. Mr Kambwili will have the right to debate when the issue comes to this House. For now, can we debate the real issues relating to the Budget?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Anyway, it appears people are so scared about the NCC …


Mr Kambwili: … because they know that it is fraud …

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Kambwili: … and it is a scandal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: However, let me address my brother through you, Madam Chairperson, on the issue of quality prosecution in the magistrate courts.

Madam Chairperson, the prosecutors we have in the magistrate courts need to be capacity built. The quality of prosecutors that we have leaves a lot to be desired. People who have committed serious offences end up winning the cases because our prosecutors are ill equipped. My suggestion to the hon. Minister is that, the prosecutors must be transferred to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecution and be trained in the minimum, at least, of a certificate in law, if we have to achieve anything in our legal system.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, let me come to the issue of Roan Antelope Mining Company Zambia Limited (RAMCOZ). The hon. Minister is in charge of the Administrator-General who is the official receiver of RAMCOZ. The money last year was allocated to the receiver of RAMCOZ in the tune of K13 million to cater for debts, including the Mukuba Pension Scheme for ex-miners in my constituency. This money was not given to the ex-miners in my constituency. I wish to state that when I had a chat with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, he said the lawyers in the Ministry of Justice had indicated that the Government was not under any obligation to pay this money.

Alas, Madam Chairperson, this Government is on record, when RAMCOZ was liquidated, as having stated that they were going to take over all the liabilities for the employees. This Government must not, today, turn a blind eye on the suffering majority of the miners who belong to the Mukuba Pension Scheme in Luanshya.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I want to seriously appeal to the hon. Minister, this year, to make sure that the Mukuba Pension issue is dealt with and the miners receive their money.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Selling assets for the Ex-RAMCOZ is another issue. Why should it take five years to liquidate RAMCOZ?

Hon. Opposition Member: Shame!

Mr Kambwili: People were prepared are prepared to the buy the houses of RAMCOZ. The mining company, Luanshya Copper Mines is asking for nine houses to buy from the receiver of RAMCOZ. Just last week, in this House, the hon. Minister indicated that the issues were being looked into, but you should realise that it is four years now since RAMCOZ was liquidated. Why should it take four years to liquidate a company? Some of the ex-RAMCOZ houses are deteriorating. They are vandalised and there is no security provided. Therefore, by the time they will be sold, they would have no value at all. I wish to urge the hon. Minister to seriously speed up the liquidation of RAMCOZ.

Madam Chairperson, let me talk about the issue of the Luanshya Golf Club. The issue is serious. People have now started farming in the golf course. This is the Government that is advocating for sports in this country, and yet it has taken them four years to make a decision to give the golf club to the Luanshya Copper Mines. Ubonabushi bwamusangonshi mwakwata?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! Can you interpret that phrase?

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, this means …

Mr D. Mwila: Yah! bebe boyi.

Mr Kambwili: … what kind of negligence do you have, you people in the MMD Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Madam Chairperson, we need the golf club in Luanshya to be running. People of Luanshya want to play golf. The Luanshya Copper Mines is not going to make any profit, but they are offering you money for the golf club. Give them the golf club so that the people of Luanshya can be afforded an opportunity to play golf.


Mr Kambwili: You are busy talking about the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and leaving out issues that are pertinent that affect the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: With these few words, I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, I am very thankful for according me a chance to debate the Vote on the Ministry of Justice. I would like to begin by stating categorically clear that I do support this vote.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: In so doing, Madam Chairperson, I would also like to say that justice delayed is justice denied. The justice delivery system in this country is moving at a very slow pace for a society that proclaims to have good governance tenets. I will cite just one example, Madam Chairperson, of hon. Members of Parliament, most of who are on your left. As we speak today, four years later, they are still serving police bonds. One of them is Hon. Deputy Minister and brother of mine, Hon. Shakafuswa …

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … who clearly demonstrated against a process and to this date, we know that their files are very active. They may have been another prosecution, but I think that it is incumbent upon the Government to close certain cases. Certain cases must never be used to settle political scores.

Mr D. Mwila: Mudala bwekeshapo.

Mr Nkombo: The Government should make sure that they put lids to certain matters. That is a very democratic legal system.

Madam Chairperson, I will not endeavour to take the entire fifteen minutes I have been allotted, but I want to raise a few fundamental issues based on the statement that I have just given you. That justice delayed, is justice denied. Human rights are a cornerstone of our livelihood and a just society. Everyone has a right to life, association, food and many things that sometimes in our African society, we tend to think are privileges.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the right to life and justice delivery system, just last Sunday, a young female constable in Neganega was attacked by four bandits. One of whom the police managed to gun down, the other is in custody, whilst the other two are on the run.

Madam Chairperson, also just a month ago, the brutal murder of Tom Savory, a farmer in Monze. The murderers were arrested barely four to five hours after they had committed that crime. I want to commend the police for the swift action in bringing the culprits to book.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, what we see is that even cases that seem to have a clear picture of circumstances of crime still take many years to be disposed of. A clear case is that of people who butchered Tom Savory. They were found in possession of the assault rifle used to commit the murder, and yet they will remain in custody endlessly. Hon. Minister of Justice, I would like you to pay attention because cases that seem to bear a definite conviction must be fast tracked.

Hon. Opposition Member: Uuh!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, cases where you think that they should be a benefit of doubt, you can afford to move at whatever pace you want to. This is because ultimately, conviction must come without any speck of doubt. As long as there is a speck of doubt, it will be unfair to convict people. However, I also know that there are a few places that some people must never ever say I cannot be. One of them is a hospital and the other is a jail. They are many innocent people who are serving jail sentences world over, including Zambia. Cases that are definite must be fast tracked hon. Minister of Justice. Cases on which the hon. Minister of Justice feels we have insufficient evidence such as the case where my dear brother the hon. Member for Zambezi, Hon. Charles Kakoma, and the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, my own brother, Hon. Shakafuswa, …


Mr Nkombo: … who is on police bond at the moment, must be discharged. However, the question is, for how long? The justice delivery system needs to be looked at critically.

Madam Chairperson, we also have top ranking politicians in this country who are leaders of political parties and have issued statements that I deem reckless. Just last week, a leader of a political party said that for our spouses to feel loved, we must beat them. To me, that amounts to inciting the public. How on earth can a person who wants to be president of a country issue an irresponsible statement such as that one?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: What kind of wife does he have who actually feels nice to be beaten? This is a shame. I think that we should actually take issues of freedom of speech very carefully. It is easy to be a role model and whatever I say as hon. Member for Mazabuka, there are people that take it as gospel truth. Therefore, that is what they will also do. A political leader, whose party recently won an election, told the press that is good to beat your wives. Is that normal?

Hon. Government Members: It is madness.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, in my view, there has to be organs within the justice delivery system to actually reprimand such people. You cannot do such a thing because it is barbaric.


Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I would now like to comment on the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). I would like to support the particular vote and activity on the NCC. The reason I am doing so is simply to make hon. Members who represent people to understand this one simple fundamental fact. It is not because of the generosity of the cow that we eat T-bone, steak and offals everyday. I want to repeat that it is not because of the generosity of the cow that we eat beef. A constitution-making process is not cheap and it is shameful for someone to stand on the rooftop distributing fliers that hon. Members of Parliament and certain quarters of society are sharing money.

Hon. MMD and UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I think that it is completely incorrect for people to take advantage of our ignorant citizens. It is also mischievous for the same people to eat with both hands. Less than a decade ago, certain members and leaders of prominent political parties banned Dr Kenneth Kaunda from standing as a presidential candidate.


Mr Nkombo: The same people now …

The Chairperson: Order! As much as the Chair appreciates the hon. Member’s feelings, I think that it has been ruled that here we are debating the Budget. If we start talking about what we should decide at the NCC, it is premature. When the time comes for what should be put in the Constitution or not, we will talk about it then. For now, can you restrict your debate to the Budget.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. I would like to repeat my chorus that it is not because of the generosity of a cow, sheep or village chicken that we have T-bone, mutton and chicken on the table. The constitution-making process comes with a cost. We have to respect the fact that this is a law that we all collectively made here. It is a law on which we tried to make and push our amendments. The hon. Members on your right did agree to certain bargains of what we wanted.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I would like to submit that all peace loving and obedient Zambians must join us on the bandwagon to make a good law that will stand the test of time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, having said so, I would like to address my colleagues on your right. I would like to give them some friendly advice, once again, that no matter how good they think they may be, they must know at the back of their heads that there is somebody who can do better than them. I would like to urge them to shame the critics and join all of us who want to produce a good Constitution …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … because we have demonstrated to be a part of the process that is democratic. At the NCC, we chose a chairman, who is seated right next to me. I was the chief campaigner of the candidate that lost, but that is what democracy is all about.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to submit that the NCC just happens to be a good thing because it is long over due and we need to be quiet about it. Those that have decided not to come, must for ever remain silent because they have decided not to participate.

Hon. MMD and UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order! The Chair feels that we are debating the Budget and if you refer to the NCC in relation to the Budget, the Chair has no problem. However, when you go into what you are doing there, I think that we are preempting. This House passed the NCC Act. After we have dealt with an issue, it is a forgone matter. Refer to it only in relation to its importance to the Budget and not what is happening at the NCC.

You may continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, it is not because of the generosity of the cow that we eat T-bone.


Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Chairperson, I would like to appeal to the Opposition in this House to work a little harder on the people on your right so as to put sense in their heads rather than trying to settle scores.

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Scott: Sorry, Madam.


 The Chairperson:  Order! There are not many chairs here to make decisions. If you feel injured, you should rise on a point of order, but you do not start making your ruling while seated.

Dr Scott, …

Dr Scott wanted to stand to speak.

The Chairperson: …I think I am not through. I think that for you to say, “put sense”, you mean they have no sense. I think that you should withdraw that statement because it does not befit our parliamentary language.

You may continue, please.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, thank you for that guidance. Let me say, to increase the sense in their heads …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … from the current high level to an even higher one …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … and from there to an even higher one.


The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Scott: The job of the Opposition is to provide checks and balances on the Executive, on the Ruling Party. In this country we are very good at living in two worlds simultaneously.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central in order to ignore your guidance and continue to debate when you have ordered him to withdraw that remark. I need your guidance.

The Chairperson: I think the concern of the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is very clear. Can Dr Scott use a different phrase altogether by withdrawing the phrase “add sense” because it is a little injurious to the person being told?

Can you withdraw and use another phrase.

Dr Scott: Madam Chairperson, to assist the cogitations of the people on the right hand side …

Hon. Government Members: Withdraw!


Dr Scott: … of the House. This is my first language and what I have said is not that injurious. It is simply describing in very …

The Chairperson: Order! Dr Scott, that is never done. You know that you do not qualify the ruling of the Chair. Let us not go into these arguments because you are also one of the senior hon. Members. So, can you, please, follow the rules. 
Dr Scott: I withdraw everything I have said about the people on the right hand side of the House and replace it with nothing.


Dr Scott: In this country, we are very good at living in two worlds. We have a system of codified law which is the equal of any system of codified law in the world. However, when we get down to what happens, it is different.  It is like the Fifth National Development Plan that looks very nice on paper, but when you come down to practice, it is a little different. We have people crying out in this country for stern action against child defilers; child molesters. We have written codified laws against such people. Everyday you read in the local courts of cases of sugar daddies and under-aged girls being dealt with as civil matters or matters of compensation and putting things right rather than as criminal matters.

We had similar problems even with the Witchcraft Act. It is illegal to say I am a witch, but you get such cases in the local court. I think that kind of duality runs right through our country as well as the administration of land where one minute you are buying and selling land under codified law for a ninety-nine year lease. To step over your fence, you are now giving the chief a bottle of brandy to try and facilitate the allocation of land.

Madam Chair, I think it runs, again, through our constitutional position in that we have a constitution that clearly states that the various arms of Government in Western thought are usually three; the Executive, Judiciary and Legislature. Of course, there are others that are less formal such as the press for example, which is known as the fourth state in English, the trade unions and other influential bodies that, in a democracy and modern multi party democracy, should be independent of one another and be able to operate against one another when bands are exceeded.

In the Chinese system, as a matter of interest, they have five official branches of Government. The Chinese system incorporates five branches of Government in addition to the three that we recognise. The Civil Service is given its own separateness from the Executive and there is one that supervises the other four to ensure there is no collusion and alliance building between them. That incorporated in the People’s Republic of China’s Constitution and it is also incorporated in the Republic of China’s Constitution not to say Taiwanese Constitution. The difference is that in the People’s Republic of China as in Zambia, there are other considerations that override the constitution. For example, you can read on the internet or newspaper of a Chinese Communist Party official saying that the Judiciary is obliged to issue judgments in compliance with the philosophy of the Communist Party and the press, of course.

The Chairperson: Order! I hope that when we get to debate the Judiciary, Dr Scott will have debated under Justice.


Dr Scott: I am talking about some of the problems that we have in this country that are the difference between what is written on paper and what is happening in practice. I am giving a very good example of a country with a beautiful constitution, the People’s Republic of China, which is a one party dictatorship and is in practice.

Madam Chair, in this country, we have reason sometimes to doubt the independence of all the various parts of Government. You may have seen a number of civil servants employed on contract or the Police employed on contract. They are not secure, how do they go against an Executive that can refuse to renew their contract at any time that they come up for renewal or even before. It does not create a conducive situation.

The Chairperson: Dr Scott, once again, the Chair is failing to place your debate in the Ministry of Justice. We have Judiciary which is coming as a head on its own. I thought you could debate even within that policy statement that was given because the Judiciary, we will also be dealt with. I am sure that is where you will talk of the independence of the Judiciary. This is a Ministry of the Government. Can we restrict ourselves to this.

Dr Scott: Thank you, Madam. I was not specifically, I am afraid, talking just about the Judiciary. I was talking about the Civil Service, the Police and, throughout, the constitution. I am talking about good governance. They know that I am talking about good governance because they know that there are short comings in this country. They do not date from the New Deal, but have continued through the New Deal Government where the Executive effectively controls or guides various arms of government, including the press as they used to do in Nazi Germany, including the Civil Service in a political way. As for the system of patronage; the neo patrimonial system, if you do not do what the Government or the Executive requires you to do, you lose your job, your allowances; travel allowances or promotion. This is part of the One Party State as it looks, after you renamed it a multi party democracy.

Madam Chair, I would urge the hon. Minister to realise the size of the problem that faces him in his good governance. We want to take checks and balances internationally though the New Partnership for Africa’s Development (NEPAD), the Peer Review Mechanism, but we do not have enough checks and balances here, internally, in our own country. We want international peer reviews where we are getting one village headman to review another village headman. Is it going to happen? That is the issue.

Therefore, I would urge the hon. Minister to take this matter seriously and deeply think about it. Does he want to create a democracy or perpetuate a system of power in the hands of a particular clique of people because this is where the difference is between the neo patrimonial African State and the modern 21st century democracy?

 I would like to see him answer to some of these concerns and I would like see that in this country we do not just believe in paper and workshops, but have to understand that reality is on the ground.

I thank you Madam Chair for all your guidance and indulgence.

Hon. Government Members: Quality!

Mr Munaile (Malole): Madam Chair, from the outset, I stand to support the vote on the Ministry of Justice and I will be very brief.

First of all, I would like to state that this Parliament enacts many laws some of which, at the end of the day, are not used because those responsible for ensuring that these laws are enforced turn a blind eye. It is for this reason that I want to implore the hon. Minister of Justice to ensure that the laws that are passed are acted upon.

Madam Chair, the other issue that I would like to talk about is that some people in this country, as Hon. Nkombo said, are languishing in prisons, others are in remand prisons while others are in police custody, and yet some of the cases can be disposed off quickly.

Madam Chair, at the moment, we are talking about the HIV/AIDS pandemic …

Mr Milupi: Quality!

Mr Munaile: … and the prison is one area where people go in free of the pandemic, but come out sick.

Mr Milupi: Matenda yathu ayo!

Mr Munaile: Can the hon. Minister ensure that people who break the law have their cases dealt with as quickly as possible? I would also like to state that the number of local courts in this country is inadequate. The hon. Minister of Justice should ensure that we have more local courts. I will give an example of Malole Constituency in Mungwi District which has area of 10,000 square kilometres, but has only four local courts. I wonder how people can move from one area to another have their cases heard. As a result, most cases are never taken to court. I, therefore, request the hon. Minister to ensure the issue of local courts is looked into, as I am sure that what I am talking about affects other hon. Members in this House.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to finally talk about the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). The MMD Government is beleaguered on the Constitution-making process because of the mistrust by some sections of our society. I wish to implore those with divergent views on this issue to give this dialogue a chance because this has never happened in the history of this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Madam Chair, it is for this reason that I also which to …

Hon. Opposition Member: Mwaunfwa bwino.

Mr Munaile: … dissuade those in the NCC from being influenced by personal or political interests and put the wishes and the aspirations of the Zambian people first.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Madam Chairperson, there is a need to give the Zambian people a Constitution that will be accepted by all. Only when we do this, shall posterity judge us correctly.

Madam Chairperson, in the same vein, I would like to ask those on your right who have commended those of us from the Opposition who are attending the NCC, to take a leaf from us. When we debate issues of national importance, they should put the interest of their political party aside and do that which the people of Zambia expect of them. It will not be enough to be one sided. It will not and will never be good. It will not do for this country for those on your right to support those on the left only when they agree with them. They must also accept that there are many issues that have been brought on the Floor of this House where they needed to make a decision for the good of our country, but decided to do otherwise.

Madam Chairperson, I hope and pray that one day we shall realise that you can never be in Government in perpetuity. One day you will find yourselves on the left side and people will judge you.

Hon. Opposition Member: Very soon.

Mr Munaile: Madam Chair, as I sit here, I hear a lot of things coming both from the left and from the right. Those who have been in this Parliament before have been accused of having enacted laws that have not been in the interest of our country.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema (Chingola): Madam Chairperson, I would like to support this vote. In so doing, I would like to make this observation; the core business of the Government is to look after the welfare of its people, the Zambian people. I would like to remind the Government, through the Ministry of Justice that laws and Acts passed on the Floor of this House are not cast in iron and are not sacrosanct. They should be amended from time to time in line with the changing times and the environment.

Madam Chairperson, just this afternoon, we have been told that there is an Act that deals with companies that go under. We are told that the current Act dictates that when a company goes under, the receiver sells all the assets of the liquidated company and distributes the proceeds firstly to the secured creditors, then the statutory creditors.


The Chairperson: Order! Can we please lower our voices?

Dr Katema: Probably, the least is the Zambian workers who get anything; if at all anything has remained. These creditors are a powerful pressure group that saw to the fact that their interests in all the legislation passed were secured. The Government being the protector of workers, even if we saw how our Ministry of Labour washed its hands off the case of the JES Mining Company in Chingola, has a mandate to protect its workers. It is dictated by natural justice to guard the interests of the weak workers. I, therefore, urge the Ministry of Justice to push for amendments to the existing law so that in the event of a company going under, the liquidator be made to pay the workers firstly, them being the most vulnerable of the interest groups concerned, before any other creditor is paid. This is in view of the fact that workers are only represented by unions that cannot negotiate with a company that has already been liquidated and gone under. If this is done, such problems as the one in the Chingola JES Mining would not arise.

Madam Chairperson, I, therefore, urge the Learned hon. Minister of Justice to look into this issue and bring to this House amendments to that effect so that we can protect the interests of the workers of this country.

With these few words, I support the vote, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support the vote on the Ministry of Justice.

Although there is a saying that goes, “justice delayed, is justice denied,” I have gone through the budget allocation for the Ministry of Justice and, unfortunately, it shows a lot of reductions in various departments. The Ministry has not been supported as it should have been. If we were talking about increasing the allocation for this Ministry, I would be smiling because then I would realise that the Ministry of Justice will be able to operate. From the biggest chunk of K375,636,736,743 billion that has been allocated, K2 billion is meant for the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). However, I am looking at the actual budget allocation for the Ministry of Justice. You will notice that the Director of Public Prosecution’s budget has reduced from K6.591,057.052 billion to K6.274,972,512 billion. There is a reduction of about K300 million, and that is a concern.

This is a Ministry that supervises all other ministries in terms of laws. If each ministry wants to bring a law here, they will approach the Ministry of Justice. They have to go to the Attorney-General’s Chambers. What has happened to the Attorney-General’s Chambers? Last year, K11.81,806,393 billion was allocated to Attorney-General’s Chambers, but now, they have only been given K11.138,865,513 billion. Again, there is a reduction. Why should there be a reduction when the Attorney-General’s Chambers will be busy, especially in a year when we are reviewing the Constitution? You needed to, also, support the departments in the Attorney-General’s Chambers.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Last year, the Attorney-General had a budget allocation of K11.81,806,393 billion, but they have been given K11.138,865,513 this year. There is a reduction, again. Therefore, the whole Ministry has been subjected to reductions. All we are saying is that this is an important Ministry and we do not need to reduce it to a level where it will not be considered important.

Madam Chairperson, we have seen contracts that have been signed in very bad taste. We even wonder whether the Attorney-General’s Chambers and the Ministry of Justice were involved. We have cases such the Carlington saga and the Concessioning of the Zambia Railways. if you remember; I raised a motion on this here. If you look at the agreements, you wonder whether the Ministry of Justice looked at the documents. It is our concern, hon. Minister, that your officers are not well supported.

The Chairperson: Address the Chair!

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, if there was a way, I would plead with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to retain that money to the Ministry of Justice. Why should you, consistently, reduce by K300 million? You have reduced the same amount of money from the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Administrator-General’s Office and the Attorney-General’s Office. You have also reduced K500 million from the Ministry Headquarters. You are only looking at the K375,636,736,743 billion. That is nothing because that money will be used by the participants of the NCC. There is no single person who wanted the NCC, but it was the Zambian people who wanted the Constitution to be adopted by some other organ.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, what is happening is the requirement of the Zambian people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: The Zambian people had requested for this through various non- governmental organisations. They all said they did not want the Constitution to pass through the National Assembly. They wanted the Constituency Assembly. Now, there is a budget allocation for that, then why are you crying? What do you want?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: This is what the people of Zambia wanted. Now it has happened such that the money budgeted has overshadowed the budget of the Ministry of Justice. Look at the Director of Public Prosecutions, we are all complaining of delayed conclusion of various cases. The Director of Public Prosecutions goes down to the police who are conducting prosecutions. There are police officers in the Magistrate Courts. If you look in this Budget, there is only a provision to solve cases in the High Court and the Supreme Court, but there is no allocation for the Police. The Director of Public Prosecutions must be able to pay the police officers well so that the cases are properly handled. How do you have a case concluded such as for my brother, Hon. Lungwangwa?


Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, they cannot be concluded because the police officers who are prosecutors are not well paid. They are not well protected and funded. This is a department under the Police Service that is controlled by the Ministry of Justice.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Hon. Minister of Justice, there is a problem here. Remember that all the cases that go to the High Court start with the Magistrate Court. If you do not support the public prosecutors in the Police and the Magistrate Courts, then we have a problem.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. It is not my intention to disturb the flow of the debate of the speaker on the Floor, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Constituency who is debating so well. However, is the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo in order to tell us that Hon. Lungwangwa is his brother when the entire Western Province, and along the line rail, can hear, today, that Hon. Professor Lungwangwa has become a brother to this hon. Member of Parliament. Is he in order, I seek your serious ruling on this matter.

The Chairperson: The Chair takes this point of order as a very difficult one  to make a ruling on …


The Chairperson: … and only asks the hon. Member debating to put that into consideration.

You may continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: I thank you Madam Chairperson. I tend to have brothers across the country, including from the Western Province, who are regarded as cousins. Among the Tongas, cousins are, actually, relations. According to the Tonga, they are brothers. I think the hon. Member for Namwala should admit that he has brothers in the Western Province.

Madam Chairperson, I was saying that it is important to fund the Ministry of Justice well. I get worried that in a year when there is a major exercise like the NCC, the Ministry that is involved gets overshadowed. Therefore, the various departments suffer.

There has been a lot of cry from the Administrator-General’s Office regarding the administration of the deceased estates, but the Administrator-General’s Office is not mobile. Actually, it is not visiting the whole country. It does not help the people. Now, here, we have reduced their budget allocation. Do you think this will help to improve the situation? I am afraid the hon. Minister of Justice has a problem. He should not pretend that all is well for his Ministry. I would like to suggest that we do not reduce the budget allocation so much that it affects the performance and operations of the Ministry.

I would like to urge the Hon. Minister of Justice to realise that with the NCC in question, his ministerial position of Minister of Justice is at stake. It is in the mirror. We would like him not change from one decision to another, depending on who is saying what to him.

Madam Chairperson, in the Ruling Party, we have a situation where through interpretation of the law, the hon. Minister of Justice would want to favour the frontbench. The hon. Minister of Justice must be able to differ with the likes of Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha who would like something done as he aspires to be President of the Republic of Zambia.


Mr Muntanga: The hon. Minister of Justice must be able to advise Dr Chituwo that he is offline as he aspires for Presidency.


Mr Muntanga: Madam, he must also be able to tell the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Magande that he should fund his Ministry well if he wants to be the President of the Republican Zambia.


Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, with all these issues, there are so many aspiring candidates, including my friend the Senior Counselor, Hon. George Mpombo.


Mr Muntanga: Madam, when you are in Cabinet, you must be able to explain issues. A decision was already made on this Budget we are debating. Cabinet Ministers are not helping the hon. Minister of Justice and that is where the fights are coming from. You are only using us (the Opposition) to pretend we are helping you. Now, there is even an hon. Minister for Presidential Affairs. His Honour the Vice-President for MMD must be able to help.


Mr Muntanga: Madam, all the Cabinet Ministers need to help the hon. Minister of Justice because he is the only one who can make sure that the Cabinet Ministers have problems. I know that you mean well, but there is a big reduction of over K2 billion in your Budget which is not good for the Ministry that all other ministries depend on.

Madam, I have in mind Act No.199 in the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resource. The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources is unable to effect it because it is not favoured. We need this Act rebuilt. They tell us it is the Ministry of Justice that is not active. We have laws on children that are not coming to Parliament. The Attorney-General must be able to tell us the protection of the children. We have been talking about bringing this law, but nothing has happened.

The hon. Minister of Labour and Social Services who seems to be totally confused …


Mr Muntanga: … cannot even bring this law to this House. .

The Chairperson: Order! Withdraw that statement.

Mr Muntanga: Madam Chairperson, I am talking about the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Service who does not seem to understand what is going on. He also needs support legally to deal with these issues of casualisation, but no law has been brought to this House. Therefore, it is the job of the Attorney-General who you, hon. Ministers, are not supporting. You have cut the Budget for the Ministry of Justice and this does not help the Ministry at all.

Madam, I would, therefore, like to urge the hon. Minister of Justice to remember that he should not be dragged to support the Cabinet Ministers unnecessarily when they are wrong, especially that we are fighting corruption. How can you use money that is not available?

Therefore, Madam, we have no choice, but to accept this Budget. If I had a way, I would ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to get some money from his Investment Fund, which is always increased, to the Ministry of Justice. We all know that justice delayed, is justice denied. Otherwise, the delay starts from this Budget and ends up with the people of Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kunda: Madam Chairperson, I will start by thanking Hon. Muntanga for the kind words which he has said about my Ministry and the need to support the Budget. He has been very constructive, including Hon. Nkombo on the National Constitutional Conference.

I would also like to say something about Hon. Kambwili …


Mr Kunda: … and Hon. Dr Scott who have conveniently disappeared from the House when I am about to respond to what they were saying about my Ministry. It is very unethical for hon. Members of Parliament to disappear from the House when they have raised issues, attacking the Government and when the Government is in the process of responding, they chicken out.

Madam, of course, Hon. Kambwili is always talking about the fall of houses in Luanshya …

Mr Magande: We wonder his interest.

Mr Kunda: …and the Golf Club since he wants to play golf.

Mr Magande: That is important to him.

Mr Kunda: Sir, it looks like he is into personal issues, but I would like to say that the Administrator-General will look into these issues. I answered a question on the same issues which he debated four days ago and explained what will happen to the Luanshya Golf Club and the houses that he keeps talking about.

Madam, it is amazing that Hon. Dr Scott kept moving from one point to another on issues that he could not explain properly. He is not aware that we passed laws in this House on sexual offences. Ignorance of the law among hon. Members of Parliament is not a defence. We have strengthened the law on sexual offences and offenders are going in for as long as twenty years imprisonment. Therefore, this kind of clumsy debate was not useful to us. Unfortunately, the hon. Member has moved out of the House.

Madam, I wish to thank all hon. Members for what they have said about my Ministry and I would urge them to support the vote.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 31/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.{mospagebreak}

VOTE 33 ─ (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry ─ K78,106,839,728).

The Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make my policy statement on the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. I have with me quite a lengthy policy statement, which is as long as the Budget speech, but with your permission, I would like to highlight and summarise the key issues contained therein and afterwards, lay the policy statement on the Table. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, the theme of our policy statement this year is Transformation for Jobs. This will focus on the challenges that we face in achieving the numbers that we would like to. In making this policy statement, I will focus on four key areas.

Madam Chairperson, the first area will be the challenges that we face in the development of Medium, Small and Micro Enterprises (MSMEs), the second area will be what we are doing in enhancing business facilitation and improving service delivery, the third aspect is what we are doing to expand market accessibility and finally, I will address myself to scaling up investment. That will be the key focus of my contribution this afternoon.

However, before I begin, I would like to remind the House that the Mission Statement for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, is “Effectively and efficiently facilitating and promoting sustainable growth, development and competitiveness of the commercial, trade and industrial sectors in order to enhance socio-economic development, in order for us to create jobs”. This is a simple statement.

Madam Chairperson, the ministerial budget for 2008 is presented within the context of the 2008 to 2010 Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) and reflects the priorities enshrined in the strategic plan of my Ministry from 2006 to 2010. Ultimately, we would like to achieve Vision 2030 that has been articulated to move Zambia to a middle-income status.

Madam Chairperson, as you may know, a recent survey indicates that 80 per cent of jobs are created by the MSMEs. Therefore, it is important that we focus specifically on this sector. In focusing on this sector, one of the challenges that we are facing is one of access to finances. Beyond access to finances, is the attitude of most commercial enterprises in lending and availing credit to MSMEs. The other challenge that we face is the level of flexibility exercised by the banking community, the structure of their collateral and the proximity of the services that they provide. This is a challenge that we must overcome if we are going to expand job opportunities under the MSMEs.

Madam Chairperson, the second challenge is that we do not have fully developed micro finance institutions to fill the gap that is left by the banking system. Currently, our micro financing institutions are not fully developed to extend credit to the MSMEs. However, when they do extend credit, it tends to be small with high interest and that extension does not facilitate for growth.

The other challenge that we face in the MSMEs is rural development. The whole issue of market access and road, communication and energy infrastructure is important. For the MSMEs to be able to get the products that we are producing in the rural areas onto the markets is a key challenge and it is slowing us in terms of getting the MSMEs as an engine for creating jobs.

Madam Chairperson, the fourth challenge is how to capacitate the various associations that support the MSMEs so that they can better deliver, particularly with regard to skills and issues of making business plans and information on how they can access various banking facilities. Indeed, there are many challenges, but under the pillow of MSMEs, these are the key challenges that are faced.

Madam Chairperson, in the 2008 Budget, we will start by dealing with the policy and legal framework that is going to support the growth of the MSMEs. We have a draft policy for MSMEs that is focusing on the viability, sustainability and competitiveness of the MSMEs as key factors for this sector to grow and provide information on how they can access financial resources. This is underpinned in the 2008 Budget.

Further, we are looking at those Acts that must be reviewed, changed and amended in order to accommodate the MSMEs in the legal framework. One of those Acts is the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA) Act, which we are going to amend so that it accommodates the MSMEs.

The Ministry of Justice indicated to us a few days ago that it was also addressing the Zambia National Tender Board Act so that it can be friendlier and be aligned to the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act.  We are also looking at the whole framework of the Companies Act, particularly the aspects dealing with liquidation and how they can assist with growth in this sector.

Madam Chairperson, these are key things that we must do in order to address the challenges this sector is faced with. We face a key challenge of finance, both from the cost perspective and access perspective. In dealing with access, you will recall that in November last year, the Central Bank reduced the statutory reserve ratios from 14 to 8 per cent and we have seen that the interest rates are coming down. However, we have been discussing with the financial institutions that what is required is proximity and expansion, particularly of the branch networks.

We have commitments that this year, one bank will put in an additional forty-seven branches and together with the other branches we are going to register at least another 100 branches by the end of the year. This is important, not only for job creation, but also for taking the products as near as possible to where they are required. We have also been having conversations with the banking sector in terms of the products and services that must be delivered, particularly to the MSMEs. One of the enterprises that has been recently developed is called Twikatane, which is fairly friendly and flexible.

Madam Chairperson, we have seen that in the last three months, at least K10 billion has been extended to various MSMEs. We think that issues of access to finance are particularly important, but it should not only come from the financial sector.

Madam, under the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment, we have resources in the Budget of K50 billion that will be added to the K70 billion to particularly assist the MSMEs. The rules of access and collateral that will be used for this facility are going to be user friendly and flexible to the extent that the majority of our people will be able to overcome the greatest hurdle, which is access to finance.

With the support from the 2008 Budget and under the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), we secured K25 billion from the European Union (EU) for the purpose of business development to assist in uplifting the skills and creating some infrastructure particularly for MSMEs. We have so far established common warehouses in Chililabombwe and we are extending this to Senanga, Mongu, Mpika, Chinsali, Kasempa and a few others. The critical thing is that, if we can pull this resource in common places, it will make it easy for the people to trade and access the market.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Therefore, this is being provided for under a fund of K25 billion. Beyond that, we secured a grant of 4 million Euro to support the floriculture and horticulture sector. The challenges we are facing are threefold. Firstly, chemicals, secondly, transport and thirdly, market. This facility is provided so that they can borrow in order to purchase these things and pay back after they have sold their produce. We have seen that it is helping these two particular sectors in terms of accessing the European Market. These are the critical things that we are doing under the pillar of MSMEs. In order to achieve this, we have provided, in the budget, under the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment support to institutions, K3.7 billion and K10.5 billion for ZDA. We have also made a provision of K750 million to support the associations that are associated with support to MSMEs. These are activities that are in the 2008 Budget.

The next challenge, Madam Chairperson, is enhancing the business facilitation and service delivery. One of the challenges we face in this particular pillar is competitiveness particularly as you associate it with the cost of doing business. We did a lot last year in business registration, transfer of title and even creating one stop border post, but what we have seen is that, as we resolve the issues relating to Chirundu, we are getting more congestion in Livingstone, Nakonde and Kasumbalesa.

A recent visit to Kasumbalesa revealed a queue of trucks almost two kilometres long waiting to be cleared to go into Congo DR and another two kilometres coming into Zambia. When we interviewed the truck drivers, some of them said they had spent ten days on the queue.

Mr Kasongo: One month.

Mr Mutati: This adds on to the cost of doing business. Therefore, as we resolve the issues at Chirundu, our next target is to deal with Nakonde and Kasumbalesa so that we can facilitate the reduction of the cost of doing business. My colleague from the Ministry of Energy and Water Development will address the energy issues and my colleague from the Ministry of Works and Supply has, within his budget, K1.2 trillion to deal with the infrastructure because that is key in addressing the reduction in the cost of doing business.

Madam Chairperson, we shall continue with this particular facilitation role. We have been provided in this year’s Budget under the Department of Domestic Trade, an amount of K22,583,125,224 to support the various activities that we want to do.

Madam Chairperson, the third pillar that we are going to focus on is market expansion. The development of market is critically important not only for local markets, but also external markets. We have been doing a lot in the various agreements such as we have.

Only yesterday, Madam Chairperson, we had a delegation from China, that this time came to import various products from Zambia and by the end of yesterday afternoon, export contracts worth $200 million were signed with $300 million in the pipeline. Most of our people demonstrate that they have the capacity to export. What they are looking for is opportunity to be created. So, the role of the Government this year will remain the creation of opportunity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, beyond copper, we have Choice Nuts that is going to be exporting groundnuts and peanut butter to China which is critically important. As they export more and more, the benefits will come back to Zambia through job creation.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, also this year, we are going to negotiate and hopefully conclude the Economic Partnership Agreement (EPA) with the EU. As hon. Members may recall, the EU is one of our biggest markets. Last year, we exported $550 million worth of various products. We are looking at an EPA that is going to ensure that we expand and improve on the $550 million that we exported last year. We are also addressing the common market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) issues.

Lastly, Madam Chairperson, the fourth pillar is scaling up investment. Here we have adopted a twin approach. According to a survey conducted by the Bank of Zambia involving forty local and had a response rate of 90.3 percent, for the next twelve months, the expectation is that the economy will continue to improve on account of stable exchange rates and reduced inflation and interest rates. Further, firms expect investment in buildings, plant and machinery to increase. Therefore, we are looking to increase investment in this particular area. Also, we have other initiatives that we have put in place for this year. Under the Triangle of Hope, we have joint ventures. Under the Pan African Investment, we are looking for investments from Egypt, Libya and Nigeria. In the Far East, we are looking at India, Malaysia and Japan. Indeed, the totality of all this process is to create more and more significant investment this year, combining Local Direct Investment and also Foreign Direct Investment. For all this, under the Department of Foreign Trade, we are only asking for K3.6 billion for 2008.

In conclusion, Madam Chairperson, for all the things we are going to do, our target is that we should be able to create at least 100,000 new jobs. For us to do this, our budget will increase from K75, 426,113,138 last year to only K78,106,839,728 this year, with an increase of about 4 per cent. For this, the hon. Members of Parliament will be able to say “Hear, hear” because we are focussing on job creation and not consuming the resources within the Ministry. We are going to deliver to the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that I support the Vote for the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry …

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and in so doing, I would like to call upon the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to assist the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry by ensuring that there are sufficient resources to drive our industry. Before I proceed, let me commensurate with the Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, my good friend who I refer to as EPAs for losing a very hard working Deputy Minister in the name of SMEs.


Mr Lubinda: I am sure that the appointing authority will find a good replacement for the hon. Minister ‘EPAs’ to continue with what he is doing at the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. I want to congratulate Hon. Siliya on her appointment.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Let me also congratulate two new entrants in the House, elected hon. Member for Kanyama, Hon. Chanda and also my good old man, my grandfather, Hon. Munkombwe. I am sure that tomorrow, he will find his way to his seat and will not get lost …


Mr Lubinda: … as he did this afternoon.


Mr Lubinda: I would like to welcome him wholeheartedly.

Madam Chairperson, one of the important things that have occurred in the last three years, was the enactment of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act. An Act that was passed by this House in 2006 and our citizens have been waiting for the operationalisation of the commission. I am glad to learn that progress …

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1805 hours until 1830 hours.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that in 2006, this Parliament passed a very important Act called the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act. I was bemoaning the delay in establishing the commission which I know has been established in the last six or seven months. The challenge that remains is for the commission to start functioning so that the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act is operationalised and the Zambians start to benefit from the generosity of God. God endowed this country with so many natural resources, but unfortunately, our citizenry cannot tap into them and the reasons are very well known. It is those reasons that led to this House passing the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act.

Some of the matters that I think the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission has to be working on now, as matter of fact, should have worked on three months ago, are such as giving to the President, as the law provides, the list of the so-called prescribed sectors for Zambian entrepreneurs. We have been lamenting the problem of foreign investors coming into Zambia, asking the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for a permit to come and invest in Zambia in big companies, and yet we find them selling tomatoes at the Tuesday Market along Burma Road. We find them frying chips, roasting chickens and trading in our markets. This shall not stop unless the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission provides the President with the prescribed sectors that are reserved for Zambians.

I would like to call upon my good friend, the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, hon. Economic Partnership Agreements (EPAs), to ensure that the Commission makes this prescription as quickly as possible.

In addition, I would like the hon. Minister to reflect on my debate when we were passing the Bus Stations and Markets Boards Act. In that Act, if you recall, there was a provision that the hon. Minister shall prescribe markets to be designated to Zambians only. That is not in keeping with the main Act, the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act, because that is the only law that allows for a prescription of sectors that are reserved for Zambians.

I would like to also suggest to the hon. Minister that when he considers bringing an amendment to the Companies Act, it must not only be limited to the issues he spoke about, but also include aligning the provisions of the Companies Act with the provisions of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act. What I have in mind is that in the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Act, there is a provision for companies that are going to be registered as citizens’ empowered companies, citizens’ controlled companies and citizens’ owned companies and those are the ones that are provided with incentives in this Act. Now, if the Companies Act, as it is today, does not distinguish between those categories of companies, who shall distinguish them. I would like to assure the hon. Minister that when he comes with the amendment, we shall support him for as long as he includes that alignment between the two important pieces of legislation.

Madam Chairperson, I would now like to refer to the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund. The amount of K50 billion allocated in this year’s Budget sounds very little. However, I am sure that the Zambians are consoled by the fact that there is an extra K70 billion, which the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry has. I hope the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will use his courtesy as custodian of Zambia’s tax-payers’ money to release it to the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry as quickly as possible. If there is any allocation that he must release the very next day after we pass the Budget, it is for the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund so that our people start to access that money.

Nonetheless, I am sure the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry was old enough when Zambia operated the Japanese Non-grant Aid or whatever it was called and knows its history. He knows how it collapsed. He is also aware of people who, today, are billionaires in Zambia because of that fund. They are billionaires because they did not pay back. The reasons they did not pay back are numerous, but amongst them was wako ni wako. Those who were responsible for disbursing those funds were looking at their friends.

Hon. Members: What is the meaning of wako ni wako?

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I am sure that Hon. Munaile knows very well that wako ni wako means yours is yours, …


Mr Lubinda: … but I think I should concern myself with the issues at hand.


Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the Japanese Non-grant Aid collapsed because the people who were responsible for the disbursement and management of that money did not handle it stringently. They selected friends and relatives and gave them that money as though it was their pocket money. There was no obligation whatsoever to monitor that fund.

However, all of us in this House must accept that the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund is not meant for grants, but is a revolving fund. Of course, the hon. Minister will give the money to the commission that will release it for probably five years. Nonetheless, what we should be seeing in this House is that we are just increasing on that revolving fund and not running it as though every year the money is exhausted, like some of the funds that this Government runs. There are some agencies that this Government asks us to fund and we keep doing so every year, and yet they are supposed to be revolving funds.

I am hoping this fund shall not be money to be used to pay our friends, relatives, cadres, boyfriends and girlfriends, but that it shall be put to good use. This money is meant to show some growth in our enterprises. What I am really asking for is that the fund must be managed prudently, meaning therefore, that the technical team to handle this money must be highly qualified and motivated to ensure that they are only giving the money to enterprises that demonstrate, through their bankable documents, that they mean to do business and not those who want to go and buy minibuses to be ferrying cadres. Money for organising cadres should not come from this Parliament or Government, it should come from elsewhere. That also means that there is a category that will not benefit from this money and that category unfortunately, is a category of youths and women.

Madam Chair, women of Kaputa do not require K200 million to do business because they cannot even write a document at the bank.

This also goes for the women of Liuwa who will not be able to write a bankable document which should be appraised by the technical team. We, therefore, ought to ask the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to open those that existed in the last year’s Budget to support the nurseries of business.

Madam Chair, I want to propose to the hon. Minister that when he sees my proposal to reintroduce monies for women and youths, he must not confuse it with the money that is going to be handled by the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund because the two funds are meant for two different categories of people and for two purposes.

Madam, I see that time is running out and since I have lost a good partner here in the name of Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZ). Let me talk a little about MFEZ in that I support the idea of the MFES entirely. Nonetheless, I want to caution the hon. Minister in that the ZDA Act provides a lot of incentives. The MFEZ is going to have a lot of tax incentives, but let us be cautious and learn from our bad history on how we handled the mines. Let us not shoot ourselves in the foot now because we want our foreign friends to come and set enterprises in MFEZ so that three years along the line, we come back here and say we gave them a lot of incentives and Zambians are not benefiting. This is time for us to reflect and make sure that those incentives are not superseding the real growth of the Zambian economy and for the benefit of putting money to the Zambian people.

The second issue with regard to this is the location of the MFEZs. There is no justification whatsoever for you to allow the Japanese or Malaysian friends who tell you that they are coming with US$1 billion to invest in MFEZ for you to go and give them the middle of Cairo Road. It is not good reason at all. There is no reason MFEZs must be built in Chilenje.

Madam Chair, I criticised the MMD Government when they came up with the Presidential Housing Initiative (PHI) project because they were picking prime land for building. If you fly from here, Hon. Magande, only a 100 kilometres east you will find vast land which is open. That is where you should be taking the investors because in so doing, you will be opening up land for development. Let the Zambian people build in the interceding land. If you bring the MFEZ to Chilenje, what do you think it will be doing to the people of Chilenje? There will be gentrification in Chilenje. Do not give me the story that you are going to create employment for the people of Kabwata Constituency because as you well know, labour is extremely mobile and do not tell me that the experts will be found in Chilenje.

People who will come and work in those MFEZs will come from across the country, and MFEZ will not build houses for the workers, mind you. Where will they go, therefore? They will displace my poor people in Chilenje and what will happen thereafter, we shall see them building another Misisi Compound, which is not the development we are looking for.

However, if you take them 100 kilometres away from the cities, you are therefore, going to expand the city of Lusaka. That is how you must plan my friend, Hon. Magande.

Mr Magande: Kwaamba mwanaakwesu!


Mr Lubinda: This idea of saying that the Government used our already existing public infrastructure which the Zambian people paid for is not correct. I want to say that I, personally, am going to continue campaigning against the MFEZs that are displacing the locals. There is no good reason we should displace locals in preference for Japanese and Malaysians. Please give them fresh land and green fields. Let them go and open land there.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Then we shall be proving to the Zambian people that you know how to plan and develop this country. To go and give them FINDECO House Building and say come and invest in here, is not producing anything. Therefore, I would like to advise my elder brother, hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to, please, ask the Environmental Council of Zambia to reject the project of putting the MFEZ in Chilenje. As you know, that is a recharge area for all the underground water of Lusaka, but now, you want to go and put buildings there. I support the idea of putting a game park there. If you think that the game park cannot work, please allow Zambians to go and settle there instead of bringing your MFEZ very close to the city.

Madam Chair, I thank you.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Madam Chair, I want to begin by saying that in my debate, I will be very advisory. I do not want to give a very sketchy debate today. I will give a very advisory debate to this Government through the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

Madam Chair, I want to start by saying that Zambia’s economy is too open and over liberalised to promote development of industry. What happened in the 1990s was actually destroying industry that had come up very well and we lost a lot of jobs, skills and some experience. I think the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry must go back to the drawing table and begin to address the issue of protecting our industry.

For example, in the SADC Region, of course we know the global argument that we must all open our borders, but within SADC here, the Southern Africa Customs Union (SACU) member countries are hiding under SACU. When you meet in SADC they are saying that we will open borders. SACU which was established by South Africa to enlarge its market is, today, still playing the same role.

Madam Chair, if you cross into Katima Mulilo, you will find cabbage from Cape Town in a super market that has been there for sometime and not from Sesheke. You cannot cross over tomatoes or cabbages from Sesheke which is greener and organic …

Mr Munaile: More fresh!

Mr Hamududu: … and more fresh. Therefore, if our friends are still hiding under SACU, we must also begin to close some slim areas. Otherwise, our southern neighbours are destroying our ability to grow industry. I want to tell you that if we do not do that, then we will never develop this country.

Madam Chair, yesterday, I met my nephew who is studying in Zimbabwe. He bought some drinks here and went with them to Zimbabwe. When he got to Zimbabwe, he was told that the drinks had traveled a long way because they went back to Zimbabwe again. This is shameful!

Madam Chair, Zimbabwe has infrastructure and is doing better than us. Today, if there is a change in a particular area, they will pick up just like that. At the moment, we have an opportunity to grow our industry while Zimbabwe is still producing mazoe and a lot of other things. Their industrial base is still strong. What we are doing here is to over liberalise and open up for what? This laissez-faire theory is wrong. We must not just go to the text book and start theorising like what the MMD did when they came into power without knowing the dangers of liberalisation.

As a result, people in this country have suffered because of over liberalisation. We need to promote and strengthen the ‘By Zambia Campaign’. It should move away from rhetoric and be practical. This must be supported by deliberate procurement. What is happening now is that we have a lot of suppliers here who are given money and they rush to South Africa to buy the goods. Let us produce here and buy our own products. The Government contracts must be given to the local producers. With regard to the furniture we buy from South Africa, the wood is bought from here, taken to South Africa and brought back here as finished products. What wood do they have in South Africa, nothing? They are re-exporting wood here at a very high price. It is an embarrassment for a country that is forty-four years old to be importing furniture.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: You are importing office furniture into this country, and yet this furniture can be made here at Mandevu. All we need to do is support the ‘By Zambia Campaign’ through a deliberate procurement policy. Otherwise, even this whole Economic Empowerment Fund will just be a flop because you will just be giving people contracts to go and buy goods from South Africa and supplying without achieving anything. You are exporting jobs and capital by giving other people to buy on your behalf. We need to be very radical. Our economic approach in this country is not radical or ambitious. We need it green. That is why I am always saying here colleagues that the Vision 2030, under the current environment, cannot be achieved. I am saying so because these debates are recorded.

Last week, I was reading debates produced before I was born and I am very happy that some people who stood for the truth spoke for generations unborn. We are here today reading that they were right.


I am happy to say that with the current environment, the Vision 2030 is not achievable. This debate is recorded and the unborn children will read it and say this young man was right.


Mr Hamududu: Madam Chairperson, the issue of industrialisation has eluded us. I was privileged, thanks to my party, to travel to South Korea two weeks ago. At independence, South Korea was at a par with Zambia. Today, South Korea is fast becoming a first world. What did they do? They invested in education and technology.

Madam Chairperson, when you drive in Seoul, you only find Korean cars – KIA, Daewoo, Hyundai, and Sumyong. Today, we are so happy that we destroyed our own motor assembly factory in Livingstone. We should have developed this technology.

Madam Chairperson, if we in this country do not have the ability to develop the industrial base, let us go into mutual partnership with a technological country such as Japan or South Korea and develop technology here.

Madam Chairperson, what is happening now is that we are busy depleting our natural resources. How much copper do we have underground? Who knows, may be these countries are stock piling copper and tomorrow you will be buying copper from China. They are very sharp. The current good performance of this economy basically is exported.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: The fact is that there are high copper prices in China and India. The good business that we are seeing now is just because of the forward and backward linkages. The moment the prices go down, you are finished. How much copper do we have?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Madam Speaker, in this case, we need to be very radical and indigenous in our planning. Otherwise, the future generations will laugh at us because we have an opportunity to develop. We were warned already before 1973 that this metal called copper that we depended on was not sustainable or renewable. Today, we are busy, again, seeing these trucks with a lot of equipment. They are mining at a very fast rate, by the way, to recoup their costs quickly and they will close. This country needs an economic intelligence unit. We need a serious think tank to look at the past, the present and the future.

Madam Chairperson, Zambia is a country of missed opportunities. After the liberation fight in Southern Africa where Zambia played a pivotal role, we had fresh markets in Angola and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC). Today, we have become a transit point.

Hon. Opposition Member: A dumping ground.

Mr Hamududu: That market in Angola and the Congo was ours, but we never prepared ourselves for it. We were excited to drink fanta and destroyed tarino which was benefiting the villager. Some people were excited that there was no fanta before they came to power. What is fanta? In fact, that thing is a poison. Do you know how many tea spoons of sugar are in a bottle of fanta? That is why there is too much diabetes these days. We got excited about fanta, we destroyed tarino and destroyed jobs for people in Mwinilunga. These are very simplistic things. We can do without fanta and coca-cola. They are not even healthy, and yet we destroyed our own local industry that was benefiting a person in the village.

Madam Chairperson, that laissez faire attitude when the MMD came into power was totally wrong and I am advising that you must sit down and reverse that thinking.

Hon. Opposition Member: And they must go.

Mr Hamududu: Madam Chairperson, I am very happy that in 1991, I never voted for the MMD. I never believed in what they stood for. I was at the University then and thought that their theories were too simple. I refused to vote and my conscience is very clear. For you people who call yourselves New Deal, can you really be new and reverse.


Mr Hamududu: Some of these people who are talking too much about pleasing Zambians are guilty. For me, I will not allow anyone who was in that system and in the Cabinet to vie for the Presidency of this country. I will not allow it. I will work day and night against them because they are liars. They change like chameleons. We want fresh brains. We did not leave our jobs at this early age for nothing. I will not allow an old man cheating people that he likes Zambia. They were in this House.

The Chairperson: Order!


The Chairperson: Hon. Member, I will still guide that you moderate your debate. I know that you are capable of using the correct words. The Chair is aware that when we debate, we should be very general with no innuendoes.

You may continue, please.

Mr Hamududu: Madam Chairperson, allow me to use some of my recent experiences. I went Kanyama and was touched by the suffering of the people. Some of the people living in that squalor are children whose parents died because of bad policies and they do not know how they got into that situation. I think this country needs serious education. We must not allow lies to prevail in this country, never. As for me, I will stand for the truth no mater what it costs.

Madam Chairperson, regarding the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Fund, let us be very innovative and ambitious. It should be about regaining our lost glory and economic trend. Let us fund industry that will contribute to the processing of our raw materials. It is not enough to say that because money is expensive in banks, we are bringing cheaper money. You bring cheaper money for people to go and import goods from South Africa and import fish from Thailand to supply the hotels, no. That proposal will be financially viable, but it is immoral to the people in the country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This fund must be very innovative and indigenous to create wealth for this country. Let us finance industry that transforms our raw materials into finished products so that we can get our real value.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This way, we can create stable jobs and useful skills that remain in this country. If you do not do that, this Economic Empowerment Fund will be another total failure. There is a need to sit down and be more innovative. In most cases, like in South Africa, these empowerment drills have just become political and scandalous because they are enriching just a few people. We will not allow it here.

Madam Chairperson, we have enough professors and doctors who are a product of the First Republic of the UNIP Government. They are still engineers. They are there in Makeni. They can get together and begin to produce.

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam.

Mr Hamududu: Madam Chairperson, the other time I was reading about one doctor who was running a shoe company and his company went down because in this country, we believe in buying goods from outside. That shoe company was supposed to be supported through deliberate procurement in this country.

 Hon. Minister, we want us to export Zambian products. The procuring ministries must buy Zambian. I do not know why there is this excitement about foreign products in this country. That concept must be changed. Let us believe in what we can do. God gave us a beautiful country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Look at South Korea, which is a very small and hilly country with nothing, but brains and innovation. Today, South Korea’s vision is to become the second largest economy in the world. I was with the Japanese and they were saying these guys are becoming hot because of investing and funding technology.

Madam Chairperson, it is very regrettable in Zambia today that powerful engineers are rotting in places like Makeni and Lusaka East. They are not being helped to bring those skills to produce. That is why when we have such debate, some points of order must not be entertained. I think it is important to listen.


The Chairperson: Mr Hamududu, that is unacceptable. You are supposed to debate through the Chair. It is the Chair that decides whether a point of order should be raised or not. You have, totally, nothing to do with it. Concentrate on your debate. Do not listen to others, but yourself as you debate and others when they are debating.

Mr Hamududu: I thank you Madam Chairperson for your guidance.

I would like to comment on the Economic Partnership Agreements. When the EPAs negotiations came in, Zambia was found in a very uncompetitive state. One of the reasons we dillydallied in EPAs is that we did not address things we should have addressed in advance. These are things like infrastructure, water and energy. These things should have been addressed, earlier. There will be other arrangements that will come, but let us be ready for such opportunities. Otherwise, whenever things come, we will be saying that Zambia will be disadvantaged because we do not address issues when there is time to do so.

Madam Chairperson, we must not be excited about the Export Processing Zones. That concept must be looked at, again. These people are always looking for tax havens to make quick money and go. We must invite them to come and operate within our environment. There is something in Namibia about Ranotex Textiles, it is chaos. They came, made money and left. They also left so many people unemployed. I think you have heard about that. Therefore, we need to address these issues. The Export Processing Zones are not a panacea to our problems. Let us invest in technology of Zambian children and people who are in retirement. We have enough skills. That fund must be used to do that. Otherwise, it will be a failure and I am on record as having said that.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this vote.

Firstly, allow me to acknowledge the brilliant vision that has been ably articulated by the hon. Minister of Commerce Trade and Industry. I would also like to use the same opportunity to congratulate the new hon. Minister of Communication and Transport. You really deserve that kind of appointment and I would like to wish you well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Chairperson, allow me to also welcome the veteran politician, …

Mr D. Mwila: Shikulu!

Mr Kasongo: … Hon. …

Mr D. Mwila: 1914!

Mr Kasongo: … Daniel Munkombwe, the Provincial Minister for Southern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: He has just come back from his unpaid leave. Except that this time, he has decided to come back to Parliament through the ‘backdoor,’ but I wish him well.


The Chairperson: Order, withdraw that! The hon. Member has come through the door. There is no other door. Withdraw the word ‘backdoor’.

Mr Kasongo: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. Madam, I respect your position, but I am talking to a person I have known for a long time and I admire …

The Chairperson: Order, withdraw the term!

Mr Kasongo: … his intelligence and integrity. He is one of those hon. Members of Parliament who used to debate, fearlessly, during the One Party State. His appointment has come at the right time. I wish him well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Let me also welcome my brother, Hon. Colonel Chanda who has found his way to this important House by a popular vote …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … and I would like to wish him well.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Chairperson, the major problem that we have in Zambia is that we are fond of worshiping anything that is foreign. I think that is the major problem that we have. At all levels, whether you are talking about those in Government or those who are running businesses in our country, we are all fond of worshiping anything that is foreign.

The language nowadays is about Dubai. All our business people and all our Government officials are looking to Dubai for anything. If you happen to go to their offices, you see computers, cell phones, you name them, imported from Dubai. Hon. Ministers, through the Chair, have you, at one time or another, sat down to reflect on this weakness? Are you aware that by importing, almost, everything that is in your office from Dubai, you are strengthening the economy of that country?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Are you aware of that? Are you aware that by even importing a small box of matches from Iran, you are strengthening the economy of that country? That is the disease that we suffer from as Zambians. We do not know how much money we are spending on importing the same goods that can be made locally. We are creating a lot of job opportunities in those countries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You will never find unemployment in Dubai.

Major Chizhyuka: No!

Mr Kasongo: Who has created that opportunity? It is you, the Zambians. You will never find any person walking the streets in Dubai because all of them are driving. Where are they getting the resources from? It is from Zambia! We should depart from this type of syndrome.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We must have a conviction, as Zambians, that we can convert our country into a Dubai that we are proud of.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Our own children from the University of Zambia, name them, cannot even find jobs, but we continue to spend colossal sums of money on importing even simple things like cell phones from Dubai. Meanwhile, we stand up and say, “We are going to create so many job opportunities in Zambia in five years time.” Your friends are saying, “Tomorrow we are going to create 1000 jobs.” In our own situation, we are talking about five or ten years.

Major Chizhyuka: Labourers!

Mr Kasongo: This is unfortunate. We have to attack this syndrome, 100 per cent. We are always externalising our resources to Dubai. We are always externalising our resources to Iran and many other places for even simple goods that can even be manufactured in this country. Let us be ashamed of ourselves, as Zambians. We have the competence. We have all the opportunities that we are failing to exploit.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Malwa: On a point of order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Kasongo: It does not make sense for one, as one of my colleagues ably put it, to go to South Africa to import curtains for the ministers houses. It does not make sense, in my view, for one official to travel to South Africa to go and import curtain for our chiefs’ palaces. It does not make sense. You are creating job opportunities for South Africans.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You are remitting our money directly. Not even indirectly. You should be ashamed of that. Who cannot manufacture the simple clothes that you are importing from South Africa? Who cannot manufacture those simple clothes that you are importing from Dubai? Who cannot manufacture those computers that you are importing from Dubai? Who cannot manufacture those simple cell phones that we are importing from Dubai?

Mr Matongo: Mulongoti!

Mr Kasongo: It is shameful! I would like to challenge our leaders to rise to the occasion. It does not make sense to be proud of all those expensive cell phones and computers that you are using, and yet you do not even know that there is a lot of money that you are spending on those simple items.

You are always giving instructions to your officers to import all these things from abroad. What for? Are you proud to be creating job opportunities for other countries? Are you proud to be remitting your own money which is supposed to be used in developing our country? Are you proud of that approach? If you are not proud of that approach, please, make a decision once and for all. We would like to encourage you to travel because you are supposed to be exchanging a lot of ideas with your colleagues. That knowledge transfer is important, but we do not encourage you to go to Dubai to overspend whatever you were given. We would like you to go and learn the art of developing our country by borrowing those ideas from others. That is what we want to encourage.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam Chairperson, the problem we have is that people are given the opportunity to travel abroad. They go to Japan and other places, but learn nothing.

Major Chizhyuka laughed.

Mr Kasongo: They only go to watch movies.


Mr Kasongo: Madam, when they come back, we expect them  to write a report that will indicate the knowledge transfer that they have achieved from Dubai and Japan so that we can also use the same kind of knowledge in order to develop our economy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam, this information is lacking. I would like to see a situation where the hon. Minister is able to write a report whenever he comes back from abroad. That would be my desire. I am looking forward to the day when, for example, senior officials who travel out of the country, come back and write reports on the economy of that particular country and how we can borrow from those countries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam, today, we are talking about the achievements that have been made by China, economically. The approach was very simple. China simply sent a lot of people to Japan and America to go and understand the behavior of these economies. They spent about one year or two years and when they came back, they introduced a very simple concept which they called the Modernisation of China, a shift away from the previous approach. China, today, has a proud record of being a leader in the textile industry because of the same knowledge that they acquired from other countries. In our situation, we are always talking about the same problems all the time. Each day and week, you will see which delegation is going to Dubai on official duties when the …

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kasongo is aware that as a House, we actually have a rule that does not allow tedious repetition. We have heard the point about going to Dubai and the transference of knowledge and skill. Please, can you move on to another point.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Madam, this country is also being used as a dumping ground for inferior goods.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We should control this situation. That is a role of the Zambia Bureau of Standards in the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. They are supposed to be controlling all these imported goods that are coming into our country. Most of the items that we import from the same countries are of an inferior quality which can even be produced in this country. You buy an item from Kamwala which has been imported from any source, the moment you put it in water, it shrinks.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Kasongo: Madam, what is the Zambia Bureau of Standards doing in that Ministry because that is its role. When you go into a number of shops, you will end up buying expired items.

Mr Imasiku: Expired trousers?

Mr Kasongo: What is the role of this department and what are they doing? They are supposed to be controlling all these things and monitoring what is coming into our country. Some of the bread and mealie-meal that we buy is under weight, and yet the department is there. As a tax payer, I am paying them for doing literally nothing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We must be given matching orders. I remember during the days of Hon. Chikwakwa as hon. Deputy Minister, although it was not his role, he used to visit all these places. We were able to learn. Foreign traders were taking Zambians for a ride. When you go to Shoprite or any other place, you would buy something that has expired, and yet there is a department responsible for controlling all these things. Now, what are they doing?

Mr Sichilima: Fyafula, ikala!

Mr Kasongo: Madam, I am aware that we have talked about liberalisation. There is no country in the world that does not monitor the performance of traders. The prices may not even correspond with the same prices that they are using when they are importing items. In our country, we are just spectators. If you go to any shop, you will find imported items. To tell the truth, I think you also have this experience. Zambia is the most expensive country. This is simply because those who have been given an opportunity to monitor the prices which are attracting Zambians are not doing so. There should be some kind of monitoring. They should find out how these traders are conducting their businesses.

Major Chizhyuka: Ni chekeleko!

Mr Kasongo: Most of them do not pay tax. The Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is aware of this and he can support me. There must be co-ordination between the two ministries to find out whether the prices these people are putting on their items are real or not. They will end up exploiting Zambians. A Zambian, today, cannot afford a meal because the cost of living that is just too high.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Through the Chair, Hon. Minister, can you continue monitoring these traders. After all, they are not even Zambians. Why are you afraid of them? Are they giving you bribes or what?

Major Chizhyuka: Ni chekeleko!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: The hon. Members time has expired.

Before I allow the next debater, I would like to say that you do not have to use up all the fifteen minutes in repeating the points. Make your points clear so that they can be taken and move one. {mospagebreak}

Dr Chishya (Pambashe): Madam Chairperson, I have been listening to the debates, particularly the Motion on the Floor. I listened very carefully to the statement which was presented by the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry. However, what the hon. Minister presented, to me, was one sided. It had to do with trade and commerce, but very little was mentioned regarding the sustenance or sustainability of our industries in terms of Research and Development (R and D). R and D support also goes with the setting up of the standards. The previous speaker has also alluded to the Zambia Bureau of Standards. The R and D deals with Science and Technology (S and T) or the technical no how.

Madam Chairperson, the job of the Zambia Bureau of Standards is not to inspect the quality of goods and services delivered in the country, but setting of standards. They also deal with innovations that take place regarding the manufacturing and development of the industry. The problem we have in Zambia is the quality or qualification of the officers who are running this institution.

Madam, setting of standards does not necessarily entail that the Bureau must have its own laboratories or its own research team to do that. They use the available human resource to set standards.

Unfortunately, in most of our institutions such as the Ministry of Health, which talk about nutrition, they will tell you that you get proteins from beef, and yet the source of beef is also suffering from malnutrition. The market where the Bureau of Standards gets its expertise from is also not well supplied with qualified personnel.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to implore the hon. Minister to ensure that officers in this institution are at a level where they can easily interact with other people and set standards which they can understand. They should not copy from other books on standards, pamphlets or booklets for use in this country. One of the reasons it is very difficult to monitor the standards of our goods and services in our country is because these people do not understand the standards and their origin. Nobody has ever carried out research on them, probably because they do not really have the means of carrying out the research.

We ought to know that S and T is always changing face. It is not static. What is standard today will not be standard tomorrow. Things change. The way goods are manufactured changes. Therefore, we have to keep up with the pace of changing technology.

Madam Chairperson, I heard what the hon. Minister said about the MSMEs. He spent a lot of time talking about financing them, but he never said anything about giving it R and D support. It is taken for granted that the technical know-how is available at markets and the people running the MSMEs must go and harvest it there. However, without the technical know-how, the MSMEs will only be involved in trade and not other activities like manufacturing. If we are not involved in manufacturing, it is difficult to develop our industries.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to use this opportunity to say that in Zambia, there is potential to develop our own industries …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! 

Dr Chishya: …of any scale and in any area, including the nuclear field. We have the potential.

The problem we have is harnessing our resources in order to achieve what we have set to out to achieve in the FNDP and the Vision 2030. We should think about that and try and come up with solutions. People have been wondering why we have very few professionals in this country when we have Zambian engineers and doctors developing Botswana and South Africa at the moment. Nevertheless, we should not despair because even the few that are remaining in the country are able to work wonders.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to declare interest regarding Trade Kings Limited. If the hon. Members in this House can have a chance to go and look at what Trade Kings in Kafue has been able to do in setting up the Iron and Steel Factory, they would be amazed. That was a local idea, and the efforts and skills are local.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Any kind of machinery or erection …


Dr Chishya: … in terms of equipment was done using local skills. If people still doubt, with your permission, the hon. Members who are interested to go and see what is happening, with all expenses paid for, are invited.

Hon. Member: That is corruption.

Dr Chishya: You will be able to see what Zambia can do. You will find that such a factory may be the only one in Africa. I am not saying Southern Africa, but the whole of Africa. We have to be proud of a locally grown idea and support it.

Some few years back, we had Zamhort and other manufacturing industries that were locally grown. However, if you look around, most of them have disappeared and they are failing to regroup and resuscitate this kind of industry. Nevertheless, the potential is there and we can build it. We are capable of doing all this. All that we need is to sit down, rethink and map our way forward.

I thank you, Madam Chair.

The Chairperson: The hon. Minister may wind up his debate.

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I would like to respond to the issues raised beginning with Hon. Lubinda, also known in the area as Hon. Mahopo.


Mr Mutati: I have taken into account the points he raised about making CEC operational as soon as possible so that it can deliver for the people of Zambia, I have taken into account the amendments that would go into to the Companies Act to reflect the structure of CEC, I have taken into account the fact that the lessons we learnt from the Japanese-Zambia Project Grant must not be repeated in the new fund at CEC and  I have taken into account the fact that this fund must not have features that discriminate or that are influenced by association. All those points have been taken into account.

I also note your concern on the MFEZ and your perception about the environment. However, I would like to say that in any development, the environment will be altered, but what is important is managing that change in the environment and our role will be management.

Hon. Hamududu gave advice and basically said we must protect ourselves, close in and develop from local resource. He said we must buy Zambian products, support the local industry, and I agree with him totally.  However, you may know that unless we trade in the region and across borders, this economy will not be able to develop. Therefore, we must be able to import and export products.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: a good example of imports is the jacket that Hon. Hamududu is wearing.


Mr Mutati:  On the issue of EPAs, I have taken what you said into account.

 Hon. Kasongo talked about the Dubai syndrome. He said that we meander around Dubai and do not learn anything. To respond to what Hon. Kasongo has said, I have actually been to Dubai and came back with a basic understanding that, in order for Dubai to grow, they have attracted significant Foreign Direct Investment and also encouraged partnership.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Now, with those lessons from Dubai, what we are doing, particularly for cell phones, is partner a Zambian with a Malaysian company that will be producing 500 cell phones. They have finished the factory and these cell phones will be supplied to the region. Therefore, you will no longer buy cell phones from Dubai.

Using the Kafue Steel example, we are also putting up a transformer factory in Ndola to make transformers, using the casings from Kafue Steel so that this will be able to create value addition, including metres, an assembly plant and an oil refinery in Ndola. In the spirit of joint venture and partnership between India and Zambia, we are going to have a specialised hospital that was signed for by Hon. Brian Chituwo, so that we can no longer send our patients elsewhere they should be attended to here, therefore, conserving our foreign exchange.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: However, we have responded in many areas, indeed, in trying to ensure that we move along the line of industrialisation. We are going to have a major investment to create a new cement plant that will be able to produce 2.5 million tonnes of cement per annum, with an investment of K400 million under a joint venture with local Zambians. That is the direction we are taking.

Hon. Opposition Member: Where?

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, Dr Chishya gave some advice on R and D and the Kafue Steel and Trade Kings. I take what he said about, but in totality, at the end of the day, we are making these efforts in order to cure the Dubai syndrome that has been referred to by Hon. Kasongo and we will continue to cure it until we get rid of it.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

VOTE 33/01 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – Headquarters – K4,793,024,571)

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, on page 343, Programme 7, Activity 01 – Preparation of Salary Inputs – K6,452,000, what activity is this for which the hon. Minister is requesting K6,452,000?

Secondly, Activity 05 – Research on Auditor General’s Queries – K10,404,000, what provision is that for, when in actual fact there is money at Programme 8 – Research on Auditor General’s Queries - K202,157,000 meant for auditing. Could the hon. Minister, please, clarify that?

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Preparation of Salary Inputs – K6,452,000, we are going to increase the staff establishment at the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry this year. Therefore, we are supposed to prepare the necessary payroll input data for transmission to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning so that we cater for that.

On Activity 05 – Research on Auditor General’s Queries – K10,404,000, some of the queries that the Auditor-General raises are associated with stations outside the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and therefore, there is a need for us to travel and answer the questions correctly.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, the answer to Programme 7, Activity 01 – Preparation of Salary Inputs – K6,452,000, that they are going to increase staffing in the ministry does not seem to correlate with the allocations in the Budget. However, I want to draw the attention of the hon. Minister to Programme 1 – Personal Emoluments – K1,341,645,506.  I wish to note that there is a reduction from K1,388,517,572 to K1,341,645,506, if indeed there is going to be an increase in staff this year, we would have expected to see an increase in the provision for emoluments. Can he please clarify this contradiction?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, on the same page where we are showing preparation for salary inputs, if you go to Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I – from K353,690,808 to K418,379,268, Activity 02 – Salaries Division II – from K489,312,832 to K570,385,293, these are increases.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 33/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/02 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – Planning and Information Department – K19,285,877,292)

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Chairperson, on Programme 08, Activity 04 – Implementation of Provincial FNDP Programmes – K17,045,000, I would like to say that I was very happy when I saw this ….

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Simuusa can you take your seat and get guided. We do not debate, you simply ask for clarification.

You may go on, please.

Mr Simuusa: Madam Chairperson, can I please be enlightened on Programme 8, Activity 04 – Implementation of Provincial FNDP Programmes – K17,045,000, as to what activity this is.

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, I did not quite catch what the problem is on this particular line. As we deal with rural expansion of jobs, we actually need to go to the provinces to educate our various entrepreneurs on even simple things such as preparing accounts and proposals.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, I have a question on Page 348, Programme 07 – Policy Formulation and Analysis – K269,857,250, in this programme there is a provision for law reform and in the policy statement of the hon. Minister, he did indicate that the Companies Act shall be reviewed. Could I find out from him which of the activities will finance the Companies Act review because it is not provided for, and yet it is a very important area which he himself spoke about.

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, the review process for the Companies Act has been financed under the Private Sector Development Fund which falls under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. That is why it is not listed under allocations to my Ministry.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 33/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33/04 ─ (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry ─ Industry Department ─ K27,491,947,898).

Mr Lubinda: Madam Chairperson, with your permission, I have three questions on page 352. The first one is on Programme 7, Activity 05 ─ Business Development Services Voucher Programme-Counterpart ─ K1,000,000,000. Could the hon. Minister explain to us what this is all about and why it has been allocated K1,000,000,000.

On the same page, can the hon. Minister explain Programme 8, Activity 02 ─ Operationalisation of Lusaka South MFEZ ─ K6,800,000,000. It has been stated clearly that the Malaysians are financing this activity. Therefore, why is the Government asking for Parliament to pay this amount?

Mr Mutati: Madam Chairperson, the provision of K1,000,000,000 under Business Development Services Voucher is counterpart funding for the total amount that we have been given of K25 billion for the development of business that is being managed under the Zambia National Farmers Union and the Zambia Chamber of Small and Medium Business Associations (ZCSMBA).

With regard to Programme 8, Activity 02 ─ Operationalisation of Lusaka South MFEZ ─ K6,800,000,000, this amount will be for the creation of necessary infrastructure in the MFEZ such as roads and so forth.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 33/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18 ─ (Judiciary ─ K128,419,920,971).

Mr Kunda, SC.: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to deliver a policy statement on the 2008 Budget for the Judiciary. Last year, I reported on the progress made in achieving the autonomy of the Judiciary in line with the Judicature Administration Act, Cap. 24. After the enactment of this Act, the Judiciary was saddled with support staff employed by both the Public Service Commission and the Judicial Service Commission. Pursuant to the provisions of this Act, it was necessary for all employees of the Judiciary to be answerable to the Judicial Service Commission. Thus the Judiciary and the Public Service Management Division agreed to second members of staff employed by the Public Service Commission to the Judiciary so that they are answerable to the Judicial Service Commission.

Madam Chairperson, the process of transferring the seconded staff to the Judicial Service Commission has been completed and 2,202 officers have been transferred from the Public Service Commission to the Judicial Service Commission. This means that we have now concluded the process of de-linking the Judiciary from the Executive arm of the Government. In this regard, the autonomy of the Judiciary has thus been achieved and it will now operate autonomously. The Judiciary determines its own conditions of service and whatever goes with autonomy of the Judiciary.

Madam Chairperson, it must be emphasised, however, that the Judiciary is still linked to the Executive arm of the Government in terms of representation in Parliament through my Ministry. Funding still has to come from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Madam Chairperson, the main goal of the autonomous Judiciary is “to adjudicate and provide an efficient and effective administration of justice for the benefit of society”. The autonomy of the Judiciary provides an opportunity and hope for it to be more efficient and effective in the administration of justice in the country. This is in agreement with the objectives of the Fifth National Development Plan which aims at improving access to justice.

Madam Chairperson, let me now talk about the dispensation of justice and the problem of infrastructure. The Judiciary is faced with a backlog of cases largely occasioned by inadequate adjudicators and attendant support staff, inadequate courtrooms, a lack of equipment and transport. The Judiciary, within the confines of its resources and supplemented by co-operating partners, is determined and committed to improving its establishment, infrastructure and equipment in order to improve access to justice.

For the Judiciary to achieve its mission, there is a need for certain levels of human resource and physical infrastructure. In terms of personnel, the Judiciary has continued to recruit and train adjudicators and support staff so as to ensure increased and improved access to justice for the people. With regard to court infrastructure, we have been rehabilitating and constructing courtrooms, especially local courts country-wide.

The limiting factor to the exercise is funding. Within the confines of the funds made available during the 2007 fiscal year, a number of court houses were constructed and rehabilitated, including on the Copperbelt where four local courts were rehabilitated at Kamuchanga, Kwacha, Mufulira and Nchanga.

In the Central Province the following local courts were rehabilitated: Serenje, Mukubwe, Liteta and Chitanda. Construction of Mailo Local Court was initiated.

In the North-Western Province, Ikelenge Local Court was rehabilitated while in the Western Province Lukanda wa Nyau Local Court was rehabilitated.

In the Northern Province, the Mulilansolo, Kasama and Nkolemfumu Local Courts were rehabilitated. A local court in Nakonde is also under construction.

In the Luapula Province, rehabilitation of Lukwesa and Mbulu Local Courts were initiated and work is in progress.

In the Eastern Province, Lukwesa, Mbulu, Mpezeni, Nyampande, Tembwe, Magodi and Chikube Local courts were rehabilitated. Construction of Maguya Chinunda, Kambombo and Mwanjawantu and Ndake were initiated.

A number of Local and Magistrate Courts countrywide are in the process of being tendered for rehabilitation or construction.

Madam Chairperson, hon. Members of Parliament, in the last year, the Judiciary continued to carry out its constitutional mandate and handled a number of cases in the Supreme, High and Subordinate Courts. This is evident from the number of cases handled, for example, in the Supreme Court, 375 appeals were heard, of which 204 appeals were reserved for judgment while 118 were pending.

As for the High Court, a total of 4,386 cases were dealt with, of which 1,526 were disposed off while 2,850 were pending.

At the Subordinate Court level, 25,925 cases were dealt with, of which 15,256 were disposed off while 10,660 were pending. The Lusaka Province alone accounted for 6,699 cases in the Subordinate Court, of which 3,378 were disposed off while 3,321 were pending.

A lot needs to be done to address the increased number of cases and this way, if we attend to them, we will also be improving on access to justice. At the Magistrate Court level, we need to increase the number of Magistrates and court rooms and this will require improved funding for the Judiciary. I am pleased to say that this year, there has been some improvement in the level of funding. The Budget now stands at K128,419,920,971.00 and I would humbly request the hon. Members to support this Budget so that with improved funding, we can improve access to justice.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam Chair …

Mr Mubika: Stand up!

Mr Matongo: … I am upright. In case you have an optic problem, I am upright.

The Chairperson: Order! You are listening to a wrong point.


Mr Matongo: Alright Madam.

We need to be as clear about the separation of powers enshrined in the current Constitution as the hon. Friend of mine, the hon. Minister of Justice is bringing up.

Madam I start by stating, that he who pays a piper calls a tune. If that adage is acceptable, I want to understand, on the outset, this separation. It must total, complete and comprehensive.

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)


[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 27th February, 2008.