- Home
- About Parliament
- Members
- Committees
- Publications
Debates- Friday, 14th March, 2008
DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY
Friday, 14th March, 2008
The House met at 0900 hours
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
NATIONAL ANTHEM
PRAYER
____________
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE
The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.
Sir, on Tuesday, 18th March, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will after that resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will consider any heads of expenditure that may still be outstanding.
On Wednesday, 19th March, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. The House will then consider the Second Reading stage of the Mines and Minerals Development Bill, N.A.B. 5/2008, which was referred to the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour on Friday, 29th February, 2008 and the Road Traffic (Amendment) Bill, N.A.B. 7/2008 which was referred to the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply on Friday, 7th March, 2008. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and will continue with the consideration of any outstanding heads of expenditure, if the Estimates will not have been concluded by then.
Sir, on Thursday, 20th March, 2008, the Business of the House will start with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on this year’s Estimates of Expenditure and consider any votes of expenditure which will be outstanding thereafter. The House will consider any outstanding business before it.
Mr Speaker, it is my intention on this day to move a motion to suspend the relevant Standing Orders to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and all matters arising there from and thereafter, enable the House to adjourn sine die.
Mr Speaker, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
______________
HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME
Mr Mwangala (Nalolo): Mr Speaker, could I find out from His Honour the Vice-President which districts in Western Province have been identified by the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit as the most affected flood areas and which are supposed to benefit from relief food and other materials?
The Vice-President (Mr R. Banda): Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. In reply to the hon. Member for Nalolo who wants to find out which districts in Western Province are affected by floods, I am afraid the floods are still on going and, therefore, I am unable to give him the names of the districts that are affected. All I can is that most districts generally in the Western Province, especially those along the river are affected.
I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President how the Zambian citizens are employed in the Civil Service because we do not see year in year out any advertisements put in the newspapers.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank you once again for giving me this opportunity to reply to the question raised by the hon. Member for Mandevu. The hon. Member wants to know how Zambian citizens are employed in the Civil Service year in year out because she does not know how this is done. May be we read different newspapers, but I think there are advertisements all the time regarding the availability of vacancies in the Civil Service.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Sir, if hon. Members of Parliament have qualified people in their constituencies, they should not hesitate to approach the Public Service or for that matter anyone of us involved in the Civil Service in order to find out exactly where these advertisements are. However, you can obtain these advertisements either through the newspapers or radio or by asking the relevant departments in the ministries so that you notify your people also to apply for the jobs.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, may I know from His Honour the Vice-President when Government will give special conditions to other companies to also move cattle from Southern Province to other areas regardless of the existing ban like Zambia Beef Products Plc (ZAMBEEF) is doing.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member of Parliament whose incessant desire to know how his animals can be moved or looked after or whatever is the case has earned him great kudos from his people for taking care of their interests. However, he wants to know what the Government conditions are now for moving animals from one place to the other and he cited Zambia Beef Products Plc as an example. Yes, I think the hon. Member should ask how ZamBeef moves animals from Southern Province. I am sure ZamBeef knows the channels. If you want to transport animals from place to the other, you apply through the Veterinary and Livestock Development Department to ensure that these animals are moved without any problems.
Mr Speaker, I remember one of the hon. Members on your left yesterday made reference to the problems that the beef industry is facing in this country. He alluded to the fact that we need to conduct more research in this industry.
Mr Speaker, the real problem has been twofold. One of the problems is that we do not have enough resources to buy the necessary drugs to evade animal diseases. However, we should also admit that some of our people do not agree with what the Government intends doing in order to protect these animals. They are suspicious and think that this is something which might destroy the animals. Do not ask me which people these are because then I would have to answer more questions. However, there are problems in our communities regarding cattle movement.
It is the same with human beings. We sometimes have problems accepting treatment for particular diseases because we are not sure about the drugs. It is only now that you can go all over the country and hear people admit that people suffer from malaria as a result of being bitten by mosquitoes. Many people before that believed that people got ill because of witchcraft. Therefore, I would like to ask the hon. Members to assist the Government to ensure that our people understand that we have to put measures in place to protect this industry which is vital to Zambia, especially to Hon. Muntanga’s constituency, Kalomo.
I thank you. Mr Speaker.
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the Government is compelling the ex-employees in the defunct Roads Department to be redeployed to other departments when they have opted to be paid off their terminals benefits.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan. I thought I would predict what question would be asked in this House. I thought the hon. Member would raise a question on mining, but the question raised has taken me by surprise.
Laughter
The Vice-President: The hon. Member has raised a question about forced labour in the Ministry of Works and Supply.
Mr Speaker, I am sure you know that there is no such thing as forced labour. What is happening is that people are constantly looking for greener pastures. The Government is not involved in their applications or desire to go to another department. Government does not force any Zambian to go where he does not want unless you give a specific example that you are aware of.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Muteteka (Chisamba): Mr Speaker, if I may be allowed, I have two questions for His Honour the Vice-President.
Mr Speaker: One
Laughter
Mr Muteteka: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President if the Government is planning to increase the number of districts in the country, and if so, is Chisamba one of the areas that will be considered for a district status?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Member for Chisamba for asking whether Government has any plans to create more districts in the country. I think we are all aware that new districts have been created in the country. These districts do not have adequate facilities, such as, offices, officers’ accommodation and transport and so on. Therefore, it would not be prudent for us at this stage to rush and create new districts while we are still in the process of equipping and providing for the districts that have been created. However, this is an on going exercise and hon. Members of Parliament together with the Government should always make suggestions if it is necessary to have more districts in the future.
Now, to answer the hon. Member’s question, the Government has to first ensure that proper infrastructure is laid down in the areas where new districts have been created before creating new ones.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Vice-President how far this Government has gone in procuring cattle brands for all the districts in Southern Province, which they promised to import about 8 months ago.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Mazabuka for raising the question. He wants to know how far Government has gone in procuring new cattle brands for Southern Province. This is an on going exercise and the Government will procure when it is ready and make them available to Southern Province and indeed to other provinces which may require brands.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, it is now 2 years since Zambia signed the memorandum of understanding for the Africa Peer Review Mechanisms. However, the process in peer review has not been implemented. I would like to find out what difficulties the Government has in implementing this process, which is the key programme for the much talked about New Partnerships for Africa’s Development (NEPAD).
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Lukashya wishes to know what difficulties the Government has in implementing the peer review when it had signed the memorandum of understanding 2 years ago. The process is actually taking place now. All hon. Members of this House will recall that about five or 6 months ago, the wife of the First President of South Africa, Mrs Mandela, who is the leader of this committee, visited this country to ensure that the peer review process is achieved in full.
I was privileged on your behalf to receive her at my office together with a number of colleagues here and she was able to give us the progress report. From what we heard, it was obvious that Zambia was not one of those left behind in the process. It is a long process and so it is necessary that the Government does this properly. We have no problems with the Africa Peer Review Mechanisms. On the contrary, we fully accept it. We think that it is necessary for Zambia and Africa as a whole. The Government and line ministries are working out the necessary modalities in order to achieve this peer review.
Now, we have gone quite a long way since we signed the memorandum of understanding 2 years ago. If there are hon. Members who are interested, they can let my office know or make a statement to that effect. However, I want to thank the hon. Member for Lukashya for raising this question because it shows that she is greatly concerned about the African Peer Review Mechanisms in the NEPAD.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President how he rates the performance of the Civil Service, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and the Back Bench.
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chadiza for raising this very interesting question which requires a long answer.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Laughter
The Vice-President: I realise that I still have a lot of minutes and I am ready today for questions.
Laughter
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to say that we rate our Civil Service highly.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: I know that I have not got, “Hear, hear” from most hon. Members, but this is one of the thanks. Of course, I know that our concern is not to compare ourselves with the other countries, but this is one of the countries that has a very good Civil Service and things are running normally. There is peace and stability in our country. As a result of the efficiency of the Civil Service, there is a lot of investment coming into the country.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Now, on the Deputy Ministers, of course, you do not expect me to say otherwise because Deputy Ministers and I are the same. Perhaps, I have to ask you to rate us as a back-bencher, but as far as I am concerned, I think we have a very solid Back Bench, Deputy Ministers and all that help in the political system in our country. I think we should be very proud.
Mr Speaker, I will tell you a little story about one President, but I shall not name him.
Laughter
The Vice-President: I am sure you all know that I have worked with many leaders. This President was coming out of the plane after visiting a certain country. I asked him, “How was your trip your Excellency?” He said, “I wish I could carry Zambians and take them where I have been so that they can see for themselves the difference between what is happening here and what is happening elsewhere”.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: The other one is about a friend who came from West Africa. He said, “I lived in your country for many years and you are always complaining how terrible your country is. Now, look through the window and see how my country looks like. Look at the condition, people, roads and the buildings, yet we have perhaps more money than you have”.
Therefore, I would like to inform Hon. Mbewe that yes, it is important that we must peg or put our ambitions high. We should not be satisfied with what we have achieved …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President … but we must at the same time from time to time pat ourselves on the back. Most of the people that come from other countries to listen to our debates get surprised at the manner at which hon. Members articulate openly without fear or favour and this is because of the democratic dispensation that prevails in this country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: I think we have achieved all these things because of collective responsibility. This country has to move forward and we have to leave a better Zambia than was the case before. Therefore, I thank the hon. Member for Chadiza for asking this question. I hope the question has been answered satisfactorily.
Mr Speaker, unfortunately, we will not be here next Friday. You will not have another opportunity to ask another question, but I appreciate very much the question raised by the hon. Member.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Laughter
Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the Mununshi Banana Scheme in Luapula Province was sold a long time ago. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the position is because there is no progress.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Chipili wants to know the progress or status of the Mununshi Banana Scheme. I have a lot of sympathy for a lot of hon. Members and the public for thinking that the Government is responsible for everything that exists in this country. I think we have gone beyond that point.
It is true that Mununshi Banana scheme was state-owned, but as a result of our decision, it was passed on to the private sector. It is a private sector driven company. The hon. Member for Chipili comes from an area which has attracted my attention a lot in terms of agricultural potential. There is a lot of water, good soils and hard working people like the hon. Member himself. I suggest that we support private ownership. People should not ask the Government what it is going to do about this or that, but we should be asking ourselves as the former President of the United States of America said, “Not what the Government is going to do for me, but what am I going to do for my country”.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice President: Therefore, I would like to assure the hon. Member for Mununshi that we support …
Laughter
The Vice-President: … that we support the private ownership of this Mununshi Scheme. I know you might be upset with the time it is taking for me to answer, but do not ask questions which are so …
Laughter
The Vice-President: I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, as a follow up to the answer given by His Honour the Vice-President pertaining to the ban on cattle movement in Southern Province, I would like his Honour the Vice-President to confirm that there is no complete ban on the movement of cattle in Southern Province and that farmers can still move their cattle if they meet the conditions, if any, as is abstaining for ZamBeef.
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I am glad that I am able to predict some of the questions to be asked. I know that questions to do with cattle always come from across the House, but I am happy about the concern for cattle from hon. Members.
Sir, I want to confirm that there is no ban for cattle as such if you can meet the conditions set by the Veterinary and Livestock Development Department.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, it is a known fact that there is depletion of fisheries in the Luapula area, particularly in the Bangweulu Swamps. There was a Private Member’s Motion in this House which was supported by Government that restocking be undertaken and Government Ministers, including Hon. Sikatana and Hon. Kapita, promised restocking, yet there is nothing in this budget for restocking. Has the Government now changed its position that it will not restock the fisheries in that area?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Luapula. As I said before, you can literally predict what question will come from where. The hon. Member of Parliament is my cousin and I know about his concern for fish. I would like to inform him that the Government is committed in ensuring that there is more fish in the lakes and rivers both in his area and wherever we have water in this country.
With regard to the restocking of fish and the provisions in the budget, we should stop killing and eating fingerlings. On my way back from the Mutomboko Ceremony, I was embarrassed to find people with fingerlings when we stopped to buy some fish at the Tuta Bridge with the hon. Member for Luapula and the Deputy Minister for Luapula Province.
Sir, people have no pity or consideration for the fishing industry. They had the little fish being sold on the road side. While the Government is considering to provide more money in order to ensure that restocking process is encouraged and achieved, I think that we can do something ourselves. I would like, therefore, to ask hon. Members to assist the people of Luapula by educating and asking them to refrain from catching small fish. Let them grow and reproduce. Therefore, the answer to the question is that we have not stopped the process of restocking the lakes and rivers in Luapula.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr I. Banda (Lumezi): Mr Speaker, how ready is Government in providing relief food to the rural parts of the country, especially with this year’s low allocation on the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) and the floods that have affected the country?
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I really appreciate the question raised by the hon. Member for Lumezi who is my name sake. He wants to find out how ready the Government is to provide relief food to all the parts of the country that are affected. I wish to say that there is proof so far of our total commitment in ensuring that relief food is available to all parts of the country that are in need. I hope that the situation will not worsen. As I have mentioned in this House before, the Government is ready to continue assisting the people of Zambia who are adversely affected by the floods and drought.
Therefore, the answer to your question is that, we are ready to continue assisting in the mitigation of hunger in the country.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, in 2006, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia visited Northern Province and Luwingu in particular. While on tour, he promised the people of Luwingu that a farm training institute was going to be built, but nothing has been done up and until now. What has been the reason for the delay?
The Vice-President: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity once again to answer the question raised by the hon. Member for Chilubi who said that His Excellency the President in 2006 visited Chilubi, Luwingu in particular, and assured the people that a farm training institute would be built in that area. I want to say that when the President makes a promise, he ensures that that promise is fulfilled. It does not mean that once one makes a promise, then things could happen like magic, “cadabra, cadabra.”
Laughter
The Vice-President: It takes time to prepare, plan, find the resources, erect and employ lecturers to work at this institute. I am sure that that process is still going on. One day, you will have a farm training institute in that area.
In the meantime, I want to assure the hon. Member of Parliament that Government is doing everything possible in ensuring that extension officers help to train the farmers to understand the modern method of farming such as, fish farming and all kinds of farming. Government has continued to provide extension services and so, the people must take advantage of this service.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President …
Hon. Members: Order!
The Vice-President: Sorry my brother!
Laughter
His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time expired.
_________
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER
WITHDRAWN RECOGNITION AGREEMENTS
203. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Labour and Social Security:
(a) how many trade unions had their recognition agreements withdrawn by the employers from 2001 to 2007; and
(b) what the reasons for the withdrawals were.
The Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Liato): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Labour and Social Security has no record of any recognition agreements withdrawn by the employers from 2001 to 2007. This also answers part (b) of the question.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Labour and Social Security who has answered the question was once the president of the union at Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) and Government at that time used management to withdraw their recognition agreement. As we are talking, the relationship between the union and ZESCO management has not been cordial. What is Government doing about that?
Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, first of all, the hon. Member is referring to a period way beyond the dates which I mentioned here. The recognition agreement for ZESCO was withdrawn in 1998. Therefore, it is not covered in the period under question.
Secondly, whenever there are differences between the employer and employees, obviously the differences have to be handled by the two parties except if they go beyond management levels, then the Ministry intervenes to ensure that there is industrial harmony at that place of work so that productivity is not disrupted. At ZESCO, For example, I think they reached a stage were the Ministry had to intervene at some point because there were issues that came through to the Ministry. As at now, I am aware that the situation is not as it were at some point. It has been managed and I am confident that things are calm at ZESCO.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, why is it that Government at often times runs away from the role of mediating between employers and employees and always sides with employers? Why is it so?
Mr Liato: Mr Speaker, as we have often mentioned in this House, the Government’s role is to mediate or being a referee. The Ministry has not at any time taken sides with the employers. What we try to do at every given stage is to look at the law in any particular given circumstance. If there is any conflict at places of work, the role that the Government has played is to interpret the law to establish as to whether it is the employer or employer who seems to have gone out of what is required to be done, is brought back on line and do what is expected of them.
Unless if there are instances that the hon. Member would have referred to, it is difficult to answer a question generally like that. However, I think our principle role is to interpret exactly what the law says and what is fair to both parties.
I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}
LOANS FOR TEACHERS IN URBAN CONSTITUENCIES
204. Ms Kapata (Mandevu) asked the Minister of Education whether the ministry has plans to provide loans to teachers in urban constituencies such as Mandevu to construct residential houses in compounds where their schools are located.
The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the Government has put in place measures for public workers to access loans to construct or build houses in locations of their choice. Public workers can access these loans from the Zambia National Pensions Fund Board, commercial banks and the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS). Teachers including those in Mandevu Constituency are eligible for these loans.
I thank you, Sir.
Dr Mwansa: Hear, hear!
Ms Kapata: Mr Speaker, Mandevu was awarded two high schools. I just want to find out from the hon. Minister if teachers’ houses have been budgeted for at these two high schools.
Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education is free to provide the answer on compassionate grounds.
Laughter
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, she is very much aware of the process.
Thank you, Sir.
Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, now that the Government has put up a programme for teachers to access loans from private organisations such as commercial banks, is the Government ready to resuscitate the Civil Servants Housing Loan Scheme, which was run by Government in order to ensure that teachers, who live in urban constituencies and indeed, such places like Gwembe are able to access these funds and build houses?
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is why I mentioned Zambia National Building Society because that is where that funding is being operated from.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, our teachers’ salaries are very low. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he has tried …
Mr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.
Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development in order to remain quiet and not inform the nation about the generators which Dr Kaunda talked about? Are they still functional or have they been sold? If those generators Dr Kaunda talked about are still there, then they can help to reduce the load shedding. I need a very serious ruling, especially that the country this time around …
Hon. PF Member: Including Parliament is experiencing load shedding.
Mr Malama: … including Parliament is experiencing load shedding.
Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Mfuwe, in his point of order, referred to the subject on generators which were born and the Chair is unaware when …
Laughter
Mr Speaker: … which in the opinion of whoever said this matter, could have helped alleviate the difficulties being experienced through power load shedding. My serious ruling is that statement was not made in this House, even though is of a national concern. Whether or not the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development will allow that presentation and challenge, I live it up to him to reply if he so wishes outside this House so that both debators will be on equal ground.
May the hon. Member for Chipili, please, continue with his follow up question.
Laughter
Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, when the point of order was raised, I was saying that the salaries of our teachers are very low and if you look at the price of houses, they are too high. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he has tried to check on how many teachers have accessed these funds.
Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member is aware that we have well over 70,000 members of staff in the education sector. There are, of course, various needs of our staff and housing is one of them. The choice of accessing with available provisions on the financial market are individual choices and if there are problems in that area of accessing financial provisions, they can bring them to the Ministry. Those who do, we give them information on where they can access loans or other opportunities to build houses.
I thank you, Sir.
PRODUCTION OF GOLD AND SILVER FROM 2006 AND 2007
205. Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:
(a) How many metric tonnes of gold and silver were produced from the following mines in 2006 and 2997;
(i) Roan Mine;
(ii) Mulyashi Mine;
(iii) Baluba Mine;
(iv) Nkana Mine;
(v) Chambishi Mine;
(vi) Kansanshi Mine;
(vii) Nchanga Mine; and
(viii) Lumwana Mine;
(b) how much was realised in US dollars from the sale of the two metals in the above years; and
(c) how much revenue the Government realised from the sale of the above metals in 2006 and 2007.
The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, the House may wish to know that none of the mines listed in the question produced gold or silver as a primary product. However, Kansanshi Mine produced slimes containing gold totalling 1,610.5 kg in 2006 and 1,721.6 kg in 2007.
The gold and silver produced by Konkola and Mopani Copper mines were all contained in slimes which are by-products during the copper refining process. The slimes are currently being exported for treatment abroad following the closure of the Precious Metals Plant in Ndola.
In this regard, Konkola Copper Mines produced 125 kilograms of gold and 4,072 kilograms of silver in 2006. In 2007, Konkola Copper Mines produced 150.7 kilograms of gold and 4,721 kilograms of silver.
Mopani Copper Mines produced 88.6 kilograms of gold and 6,371.5 kilograms of silver in 2006 while in 2007, the company produced 591.9 kilograms of gold and 13,807.9 kilograms of silver.
Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Lumwana and Mulyashi Copper mines are still at construction stage and are expected to commence production during the course of this year.
Mr Speaker, with regard to part (b) of the question, a total of US$76 million was realised from the sale of the slimes broken down as follows:
Mine 2006 (US$) 2007 (US$)
Kansanshi Mine 18.5 million 26.0 million
Konkola Copper Mines 3.4 million 4.9 million
Mopani Copper mines 3.8 million 19.4 million
Total 25.7 million 50.3 million
Mr Speaker, in response to part (c), according to the current revenue collection system used by the Zambia Revenue Authority, revenue collected from gold and silver is not separated by metal type. However, the Zambia Revenue Authority has put in place a mechanism to capture revenue from by-products including gold and silver that becomes effective on 1st April, 2008.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there are any indications from the Geological Survey Department that we have areas that have gold and silver as primary metals.
Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that right here in the eastern part of Lusaka Province, there is an area where we can produce gold as a primary product and that was being done in the 1980s.
I thank you, Mr Speaker.
____________
BILL
HOUSE IN COMMITTEE
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
THE EXCESS EXPENDITURE APPROPRIATION (2005) BILL, 2008
Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SCHEDULE ON PAGE 4
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in the Schedule, on page 4, by the deletion of the Schedule and the substitution therefor of the following:
SCHEDULE
Excess Expenditure Appropriation
1No. of Head 2Service 3Appropriation
7 /01 11 01 02 03 08 09 10 13 14 17 17 03 18 01 02 07 18 29 45 01 46 14 77 01 03 06 99 03 04 OFFICE OF AUDITOR-GENERALHeadquartersZAMBIA POLICE – MINISTRY OFHOME AFFAIRSHeadquartersProtective UnitLilayi Police Training SchoolAirport DivisionLusaka ProvinceCopperbelt ProvinceWestern ProvinceEastern ProvinceSouthern ProvinceMINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRSMission abroad – Washington JUDICIARYHeadquartersSupreme CourtSheriff of ZambiaLocal Court - Northern ProvinceHigh Court – Western ProvinceMINISTRY OF COMMUNITYDEVELOPMENT AND SOCIALSERVICESHeadquarters MINISTRY OF HEALTHLusaka ProvinceMINISTRY OF DEFENCEHeadquartersZambia Air ForceDepartment of Defence IntelligenceCONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORYEXPENDITUREConstitutional PostsContingency 846,438,416 3,096,650,514 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 252,712,769 332,651,553 2 1 1 602,663,089 13,786,925,778 17,359,344,486 25,230,338,648 421,714,461 21,137,078,507 274,616,943
TOTAL 83,341,135,177
Amendment agreed to. Schedule on page 4 amended accordingly.
Schedule on page 4, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Title agreed to.
____________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendment:
The Excess Expenditure Appropriation (2005) Bill, 2008
Report Stage on Tuesday, 18th March, 2008.
______________
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY
[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
VOTE 64/01 – (Ministry of Works and Supply – K293,871,479,335).
(Consideration resumed)
Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu): Madam Chairperson, when business adjourned yesterday, I was trying to explain the way contracts are packaged. This is important because, at the moment, the nation has been thrown into confusion.
Hon. Government Members: Aah!
Major Chibamba: Yes. Listen to what I am saying because many of us …
Interruptions
Madam Chairperson: Order!
Major Chibamba: … do not understand what constitutes a contract and this is the basis for all the problems that are being created in the nation. We want to support the Mwanawasa Government so that the nation can move forward. Therefore, we must support any development taking place and so listen, please.
Madam Chairperson, there are three parties in a contract. Each party must play its role effectively in order for the contract to be completed according to its specification on time and as required by the Government.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: Firstly, the consultants in the team depending on what capital project it is may include water engineers, quantity surveyors, and architects and so on. Therefore, I fail to understand how a contract can be terminated on account of whatever shoddy work. Where are the Government officials?
Mr Munaile: Nabalya!
Major Chibamba: Do they closely supervise the work?
Mr Sing’ombe: Masholi!
Major Chibamba: I will give you an example. The hon. Minister is hard working - and I want him not to misunderstand me – is not being given proper information.
Mr Sing’ombe: But it is a fact.
Major Chibamba: He is mobile and everywhere trying his best, but he is not getting anything. To illustrate what I am saying, I will give an example of Hon. Professor Lungwangwa. With due respect, Hon. Professor Lungwangwa’s rating was very low two months ago in this House, but today, he is as sweet and sweeter …
Professor Lungwangwa stood up.
Major Chibamba: Wait hon. Minister.
Interruptions
Major Chibamba: Listen. Professor Lungwangwa’s rating today is not less than 90 per cent.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: That is the point I am driving at because Professor Lungwangwa has a team of officers who are hard working, especially in the provinces. We thank Professor Lungwangwa.
Again, to just illustrate the point, we have a Provincial Educational Officer in Northern Province who has taken on board every District Education Officer. They are touring the entire province. I am very glad that he is doing this and I wish you could promote him.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. PF Members: Now you can raise your point of order.
Professor Lungwangwa laughed.
Major Chibamba: There are two departments in the Ministry of Works and Supply that I am concerned about. The first one is the Buildings Department.
Interruptions
Major Chibamba: I will speak without fear. I am a committed Zambian, patriot and a nationalist and I will speak like that. The Buildings Department which is under the Ministry of Works and Supply is in shambles. The leadership requires change immediately.
Major Chizhyuka: Surgical!
Major Chibamba: Well, surgical, yes. This is not a fact that can be ignored. The hon. Minister requires accurate information so that he is able to pass the same information to the President for him to make an informed decision to the nation. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Quite too often, Madam Chairperson, when a contract is arranged, there is supposed to be first and foremost, proper technical evaluation of the project, but this is not the case. It must be properly engineered in such a way that the quantities that will come up will conform to the requirement of that particular project.
The hon. Minister has stood on the Floor of this House many times and told us about the completion this year of the First President’s house. According to the hon. Minister’s assurances, this house was supposed to have finished last year, in July, 2007, but he is talking of finishing it in September, 2008 today.
The Katima Mulilo and Chirundu projects and many other capital projects are being affected because officials in the Ministry do not inspect projects that are being carried out.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: There should be no shoddy work. If officials in the Ministry are working, they will ensure that the contractor does what is according to the specification.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: There must be close supervision.
Mr Munaile: Balalya mo!
Major Chibamba: Now, because they do not do that, all they will do is to terminate the contract and bring in their favourite contractor and say, “Mwaiche meaning young man, I am going to give you this job. Make sure you do this and that and look after me”.
Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about Road Development Agency (RDA). This is run by officers who do not need any supervision, but …
Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Madam.
The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Chilembo: Madam Chairperson, I rarely raise points of order. Is the hon. Member in order to debate without declaring interest? It is clear that from his debate, he is a contractor and he is talking from that point of view. Is it not only fair and proper that he declares interest?
Interruptions
The Chairperson: Order! After listening to the point of order, I think the hon. Member on the Floor has some interest in the issue that he is debating and, therefore, he should declare interest. If this is true, the hon. Member may need to declare interest as he is speaking from some knowledge of his work.
May he, please, continue.
Major Chibamba: Madam Chairperson, I was Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Works and Supply for a very long time.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: I am a man with a lot of experience and I am speaking from my past experience compared to what we are seeing today.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: The question of interest does not come in. There are farmers here including hon. Ministers who will stand up and talk on agriculture.
Madam Chairperson, …
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
The Chairperson: Order! I think we should understand the context here. It is true there are farmers, but the guidance of the Chair is that this is specific business interaction that you are involved in and it would just be in order for you to declare interest.
Major Chibamba: Madam Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. I want to say that RDA …
Hon. Government Members: Declare your interest!
Major Chibamba: … well …
Hon. PF Members: Hammer, hammer!
Major Chibamba: I declare interest, but I want to …
Interruptions
Major Chibamba: Madam, RDA is run by officials who are well vested in their job, but I do not understand why there should be bickering between RDA and the National Road Fund. If there are problems, they should be resolved.
On the issue of maintenance of roads, RDA does not require any special funding. They must be able to utilise the funds that are allocated to them and start maintaining the roads, especially the highways. I have in mind the Great North Road which is badly potholed and there are so many accidents. The road between Mansa and Kashikishi …
Mr Munaile: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: … and many other roads that the hon. Members have spoken about need to be worked on. Therefore, I am saying that there should be no reason for any shoddy work. The Government should not waste time to prosecute those contractors who have been found wanting,
Contractors who perform badly must be prosecuted. We want Government to give the people of Zambia better standards of living. However, where officials terminate a contract because of their vested interests, they must also be probed. When the probe is conducted, we hope that officials and consultants will be brought forward to give evidence …
Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: … so that we can put this matter to rest. What is happening between Mongu and Kalabo hurts me because I went to Kuwait to look for money. That money has been thrown into the Barotse Plains. The consultants who are on that project continue to receive even bigger contracts from the Government. I hope that there will not be cheap politics that will lead to prejudices. I also hope that there will be no retribution for whatever reason.
Contractors must be heard at an appropriate time. The Government officials must also be brought to account for their failure to ensure that the Government receives products worth the money it spends.
Mr Choongo: Hear, hear!
Major Chibamba: A contractor must not be allowed to take away money that he has not worked for. I do not succumb to that and I think that the hon. Minister will understand what I am saying and do exactly what Professor Lungwangwa has done by turning around the Ministry of Education. It is not too late to do this. The hon. Minister has a good future. He must never depend on information supplied by people who are affected by corruption.
I thank you, Madam.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this vote.
Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to state that I reluctantly support this vote. I do so because the hon. Minister of Works and Supply last year called hon. Members of Parliament from various provinces to help him plan and choose the projects that were supposed to be undertaken in those provinces. Hon. Members of Parliament from the North-Western Province met the Minister and chose two important roads for funding and completion in this year’s Budget. Our understanding of that arrangement was to avoid the situation where the little resources in the budget are spread over so many projects. We thought that there should be concentration on the completion of specific projects. Two projects, for example, could be completed per year in each province so that those are forgotten and done away with.
Alas, Madam, what has happened is contrary to our expectation. The Mutanda/Chavuma Road, for example, was to be funded in full and completed this year so that it should not feature in the budget again. However, the amount that has been allocated to this project can only tar an additional 30 km out of the remaining 400 km to be tarred.
Mr Kasongo: Aah! That is a long time.
Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, to me, this does not show the level of commitment and seriousness that we expect from the Government in the tarring of the Mutanda/Chavuma Road.
Madam Speaker, I would like to remind this House that this is a very important road for the North-Western Province because it links all the seven districts in the province from Solwezi to Mwinilunga, Kasempa, Mufumbwe, Kabompo, Zambezi and Chavuma. We are all connected to the Mutanda/Chavuma, the M8 Road. This road has been featuring in the budget for the last 40 years. Does it make sense that one project must be appearing in the national Budget for 40 years? There must be an end to a project.
Madam Chairperson, as we speak, the allocation that has been provided to this road in this year’s Budget can only go as far as Mufumbwe, which is an additional 30 km from where it was stopped last year. The amount of K37.5 billion that has been allocated in this year’s Budget is totally inadequate. I would like to urge this Government to find additional money and bring a supplementary budget since we now know and understand that money is coming from the mines this year. We want that money to be used productively on such big projects like the M8 or Mutanda/Chavuma Road.
Madam Chairperson, if we are talking about the North-Western Province becoming the engine of economic development in Zambia in the foreseeable future, we cannot have a situation where the next growth area in the economy is neglected in terms of infrastructure development. For example, when you talk about opening the area in terms of investment into oil exploration and mining, the areas where oil is occurring have no infrastructure. How will you go to the areas where natural resources like oil and mines are occurring without the infrastructure to take you there? How will you go to Kayombo in Kabompo and Nyatanda in Chavuma where oil is suspected to occur without road infrastructure? How will you move the tracks and drilling machines? If you want to go to Kashinji or Chinyamalitapi in Zambezi, there is no road and not even the 4 x 4 vehicles can go there this time. How then are you going to explore the oil that is there? What I am saying is that infrastructure development is cardinal to the development of the economy and if it is neglected, it will be very difficult to open the area to other forms of development.
Madam Chairperson, allow me also to put on record that the people of the North-Western Province are not happy with the way the Government is playing games over the Mutanda/Chavuma Road. Since time immemorial we have always known this road to be called the Mutanda/Chavuma Road because by so doing, we are stating it as one project. What has happened now is that the Ministry of Works and Supply has decided to use divide and rule tactics by splitting this road into pieces. Sometimes they will call it Kasempa Turn Off to Kabompo, Mutanda to Kasempa Turn Off or Kabompo to Zambezi Road. Why? The only reason is that you want to make it look like this project is only for a certain section of people.
Madam Chairperson, this is demonstrated by the fact that because they stopped calling it the Mutanda/Chavuma Road even in the Budget, we have now discovered that, in fact, the Kabompo/Zambezi/Chavuma Stretch is no longer featuring in the plans for the Ministry of Works and Supply. There is no provision for the feasibility study and contract for it in the Budget. As a result, even if money was found to tar the Mutanda/Chavuma Road, that stretch would be forgotten.
Madam, I also understand that it was worked on because of political voting patterns in the country and that the only people that voted for the MMD Government ended in the Kabompo District. The Government felt that it could only service the people who voted for the MMD Government. However, it has turned out that the people of Chavuma also voted for the MMD Government and there is no road now. The Government was being short sighted by tying developmental projects to the voting patterns because people change.
Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.
Mr Kakoma: I would like to urge this Government to find money to conduct a feasibility study for the Kabompo/Zambezi/Chavuma Stretch and appoint a contractor to work on the stretch. In fact, during the elections in 2006, this Government promised the people that they will engage two contractors on the same road. They said one would start from Chavuma and the other from Kasempa Turn Off so that they meet in the middle to complete this road quickly. That has not happened. This time when we remind them about their promise, it appears nobody is willing to take responsibility. After all, it was a matter of hoodwinking the people.
Madam Chairperson, my debate on infrastructure development would be incomplete if I do not refer to the wastefulness of this Government. This Government used taxpayers’ money to conduct a feasibility study for the construction of a bridge on the Zambezi River. They spent one K1 billion to conduct the feasibility study. The outcome of that study was that the bridge on the Zambezi River was both technically feasible and economically viable. After spending K1 billion, the Government has now forgotten and abandoned that project. Why, in the first place, did we spend taxpayers’ money if we had no intentions of constructing the bridge on the Zambezi River? Why did you do it? Was it for political appeasement?
Hon. Opposition Member: As usual.
Mr Kakoma: You raised people’s hopes that at last the MMD Government has realised the need for a bridge on the Zambezi River. You raised hopes for people that were risking their lives to cross the Zambezi River in small canoes, risking lives to be caught by crocodiles, risking their lives to drown in the Zambezi River and having difficulties in crossing heavy goods. The people had hoped that with the construction of the bridge on the Zambezi River, their sufferings would be alleviated. However, that hope has been bashed.
Madam, we must have morality in the way we conduct politics in this country. We should not be conducting politics for the sake of winning an election. Unfortunately, the people of Zambezi West, in particular, are very clever. They can read beyond promises that cannot be fulfilled. This time around they are saying that if this Government thinks that they can mislead or hoodwink them, they will not listen to this Government next time around.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kakoma: They will not listen to any fake promises.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: We can persuade them!
Mr Kakoma: Even the proposal or thinking of my hon. youngman in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Shakafuswa, that he can persuade them to change parties so that they have development, they will not buy that.
Laughter
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Kakoma: Madam Chairperson, I would like to talk about infrastructure development. It is very disheartening to note that whereas on the Angolan side, the Angolan Government is seriously rehabilitating its infrastructure by rebuilding its bridges and roads to link to the Zambian Border, but we do not seem to be serious about creating that linkage to facilitate trade between the two countries on our side. I would like to urge this Government to seriously apply their minds in construction of bridges …
The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired!
Mr Mooya (Moomba): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on this vote.
To start with, I would like to state that I support the vote and in doing so, I would like to discuss a few issues. First of all, I would like to take Hon. Major Chibamba’s words as my own.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mooya: The packaging of a contract or the way he detailed it is how it is supposed to be. There are three players involved and these are the contractor, client and consultant. All I am asking here is that the on going investigations must be broadened so that it covers all the three players. They say that it takes two to tangle. Therefore, a contractor alone cannot dance. He or she needs a partner and that partner is either a client or consultant.
Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!
Mr Mooya: Therefore, let us broaden the investigations. Again, they say that if you want to know how a hippo lives under water, you ask a crocodile.
Hon. Members: Sondashi!
Mr Mooya: The crocodile here is the contractor and he is going to tell the story. Let us be neutral and broaden the investigations.
Having said that, let me discuss the issue of small-scale Zambian contractors. Which way are we going? It seems we are abandoning our own contractors. I so because of what has happened. We have been told of late that advance payments have been stopped. This is blacklisting Zambian contractors.
The US$39 million for road equipment is supposed to be for all the contractors, but it is for the retired civil servants who will be operating and running this equipment. This tells me that we are going back to false accounts. We were told by the hon. Minister yesterday that contractors should fight for the empowerment fund on their own. I do not agree with that idea. We identified these constraints 15 years ago in order to build capacity. If we were serious, we would have solved all the problems by this time with our Zambian contractors.
Madam Chairperson, for example, there were recommendations 15 years ago that we should improve on loan and credit facilities to stakeholders in the industry. We said that Government should intervene and ensure that loans for contractors are available at low affordable interest rates. We also needed provision to be made for duty and tax relief on certain imports. I can go on and on explaining this. After that, we have not done anything and we want to abandon the small-scale contractors. We cannot rely on foreign contractors because they externalise money while our own contractors circulate the money within the country.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mooya: Madam Chairperson, when the hon. Minister winds up debate on this vote, I really want to know which way we are going regarding the small-scale contractors.
Madam, I have a few remarks to make in connection with a question I raised regarding the Baobao Land. I do not know the pronunciation.
Hon. Members: Baobab!
Mr Mooya: Baobao, Baba or whatever it is …
Laughter
The Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
Mr Mooya: … but I think you know the land that I am talking about.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hammer!
Mr Mooya: Madam, I was shocked at the answer that I was given when I asked the hon. Minister of Lands whether it was cheaper to build or buy a house. The hon. Minister said that it was cheaper to buy a house and he gave reasons, but I do not agree with him. I want to state here that from my experience, you will save at least 40 per cent to 50 per cent if you build your own house and that is a fact. Therefore, the excuse of saying Zambians will buy houses which will be built on the Baobab Land does not really hold water because those will be unaffordable. They will be very costly.
Madam, while on land, let me talk about the houses for our former Presidents. The first house is for our First Republican President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda. I am happy to hear that it will be completed this year although Hon. Chibamba said it would have been finished within a year. Now, I think it is about 17 years and it is not complete. I, therefore, suggest to the hon. Minister to apologise when handing over this house to our First Republican President. I remember last year, our First Republican President was taken to where the house is being built and there was only partial handover. The Government should have handed over completely the house, but this was not the case. The same applies to the other house. Let us not wait for 10 to 15 years to complete the house.
Madam Chairperson, the other issue I also want to discuss is about the two bridges, Chembe and Kazungula. We were promised that the Chembe Bridge would be completed by March but instead, it will be completed in September, which will be 6 months behind the schedule. I forgive the Government for that 6 months extension because this is a very historic project and it has been on the drawing board for more than 40 years. Even during the federal days, it was there but it is nearing completion. We are going to make history when we complete that project.
Madam, the Kazungula Bridge is so near and yet so far. There was false hope given that the three countries have agreed on the money for the construction of that bridge, but one country has a problem suddenly that has cropped up. We know that one country cannot access that loan but so near and yet so far. What is the way forward because we also want that bridge to be completed?
Madam, finally, I want to talk about border facilities. Revenue collection is not done where border facilities do not exist like at Kasumbalesa and Nakonde Border posts. I urge the Government to find money to build border facilities. There is gold there. We can collect a lot of revenue for investment.
I thank you, Madam Chairperson.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri (Luanshya): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this very important vote. I will be brief because I just want to talk about two issues.
Madam Chairperson, the first issue is about the M7 Road. This road was done 6 or 8 months ago. Discussions were made with the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to have this road rehabilitated. However, I am a sad person to note that 6 months along the line, that road has been eroded away. This is very disappointing. The reason why I am disappointed is that this is a by-pass road which off loads Ndola from heavy trucks. Ndola has only one good road which will completely be eroded away because we all rejoiced when the by-pass road was being constructed.
Madam, there are a lot of mines that have been opened up both on the Copperbelt and in North-Western provinces. Therefore, all trucks going to North-Western Province pass through that small road. Now that it has been eroded away, all the trucks will be passing through Ndola instead of using the by-pass road. I urge the Government to do something about this because Luanshya people are not happy with the road network. We have been bemoaning this in this House for a long time. The ministry was provided with money to work on these roads, but billions of kwacha have been used within a very short time.
We need to look critically at the supervision of the roads. There is no way that a road that has just been done can be washed away between 6 and 8 months. We talked about that road when it was under construction …
Mr Kambwili: Chinese.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: …and I am sure that the hon. Minister will agree with me. We did mention that the work on that road is very good.
Mr Kambwili: It is of sub-standard.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Yes, it is of sub-standard. This is because the materials they are using will not last and it has not lasted for sure. I would like to ask the very hardworking hon. Minister to look into the supervision of these roads. The contractor working on that road should be arrested because he cannot eat so much money …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Ama billions of kwacha have been eaten or consumed by this contractor. They have even put a kama poster on the road. I am sorry to say this.
The Chairperson: Order! Can you use the correct language of the House?
May she, please, continue.
Laughter
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, they have even put up a poster by the road side warning motorists of a very big pothole reading, “Careful. A pothole ahead”. I appreciate that poster but I do not agree with the fact that we have potholes on a road that has been worked on barely a year. Part of that road has literally been washed away because the layer that was put was thinner than what we had anticipated.
Madam Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the Roan/Mpatamatu Road.
Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: We went with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to monitor that road. We actually advised him that if that road could be done, the Government would have a very big plus. I just hope that he will be able to tell the truth and not change goal posts saying that we did not talk about it.
Madam Chairperson, that road is very important. We have heard that the backbone of the economy is the road network. The economy cannot boost if the road network is bad. I have lamented in this House about the bad road network in Luanshya. I even wanted to debate on the Ministry of Communications and Transport yesterday over the railway line which the former hon. Minister had promised was going to be looked into. She said that the railway line project which is being done in Eastern Province will also be done in, but I do not agree with shifting goal posts. Economy does not shift. You cannot boost another area by taking infrastructure there from somewhere else and kill the other area. I do not believe in that.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Madam Chairperson, if the railway line project is worked on, all the heavy duty will be transported using this. In the coming year, Baluba and Milyashi mines will start producing a lot of copper and they will be using roads to transport this. However, if the road network is not done properly, it means that at the end of the day, we will remain without a road. The efforts of the hon. Minister would be in vain.
Madam Chairperson, I have also not seen the allocation in this year’s budget for the Kafubu Block Road. This is also a very important by-pass road. If this road is worked on, the number of vehicles which will be using on these other roads will be reduced, especially that the Kafulafuta or M7 Road now has been washed away.
Madam Chairperson, quickly …
The Chairperson: Order!
Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.
[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]
Mrs N. J. C. Phiri: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was making comments about contractors.
Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that Government should first consider giving contracts for district contractors. We have contractors and supervisors in our districts, but most of them come from Lusaka. I wonder why we have provincial engineers under the Ministry of Works and Supply.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us listen.
May she, please, continue.
Mrs N. J. C. Phiri: When I was District Commissioner, I remember at one time during a meeting of the Provincial Development Co-ordinating Committee (PDCC), I asked the Ministry as to why our offices within the provinces do not participate in the scrutiny of the contractors. Why are contractors not scrutinised by the Provincial and District Administration? It would be imperative for the Ministry to consider our officers at the district and provincial levels to participate in the scrutiny of these contractors. I think that it is important that we give priority to the contractors at the district level. We do not want to see a situation where a contractor maybe from Luapula Province goes to work on roads that he does not understand in Mambwe. I think this is why we have a lot of shoddy works on our roads. How can we contract someone from China or my mbuyas in Northern Province to go and work on the roads in Mambwe or Kafulafuta in Luanshya?
I think that is where we have problems because roads are not worked on by contractors from within the locality. We need to ensure that the local contractors do the roads in their own areas.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Something can only be appreciated if it is loved. It is very difficult for one to appreciate something which he or she does not love and has never made a decision on. Some decisions are just made without understanding the situations in our districts. Therefore, we need decisions to be made by both our district and provincial officers who are better placed to understand the situations in their respective areas. We have educated engineers and, therefore, it is very important that we make use of them. I urge the Government to make sure that monitoring or supervision of the projects is done by our district officers.
Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.
Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this vote.
On Thursday last week, I stood on the Floor of this House to debate the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. During the debate, I said that there are six key ministries which work together to support tourism, particularly the Northern Circuit, in Zambia. Today, I wish to debate and add my voice by supporting the increase on the allocation to the Ministry of Works and Supply and road infrastructure, in particular.
Mr Chairperson, last weekend I travelled to my constituency to officiate at the fishing competition. It took two days for the participants to travel from Lusaka to Nsumbu or Kasaba and Nkamba bays and they spent a night in Kasama because the road network is bad. The road between Kasama and Kapatu is bad. I am sure the hon. Minister of Works and Supply is aware and so we need immediate intervention. In short, the road is almost impassable. At one time, the Zambia Nation Service worked on the road whilst waiting for would-be contractors.
Sir, as has been echoed by other hon. Colleagues, the road network especially in the tourism areas is the backbone of our economy. When we talk about tourism being a reality, it is because of the national parks, lakes and other tourist attractions. In Northern Province, we have the Chishimba and Lumango falls which are also tourist attractions. I urge the Government to ensure that these areas are accessible by either road or air transport.
Mr Chairperson, the Great North Road is a gateway to the economy recovery of this country through tourism. We have the Northern Circuit in Northern Province. During my debate on the Motion of Thanks on the Presidential Speech, I said that with the anticipation of US$415 million from windfall tax, we will only need US$100 million for the tarring of the Kasama/Kaputa Road. This road is linked to the Kasaba Bay Resort Project which is attracting billions of kwacha for investment. Alas, we will be delayed in the development of this project because the road is not as good as it is expected to be.
Mr Chairperson, in 2006, in spite of the Government carrying out a feasibility study at a cost of K750 million, there was no allocation towards the rehabilitation of this road. In the 2007 Budget, there was also no allocation for the reconstruction of the Kasama/Kaputa Road. The road might not have been economically viable then but it could be of use now because of the Kasaba Resort Bay Project. I urge the Government to revisit the direction of road infrastructure development.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson,…
Mr Bonshe crossed the Floor.
Hon. Members: Order!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, if the road network in all districts improves, it means that the hon. Minister of Education will make an effort of building more schools. As I am talking, the hon. Minister has allocated some money to Katele Basic School, but we are failing to cross the Matiye River to go to the school because two bridges were washed away last year. As a result, school children do not go to school. Even though school children do not go to school, I appreciate and salute the hon. Minister of Education for rehabilitating more schools but the road network in the country must be revisited.
Mr Chairperson, let me now talk about the consultants we have in the country. There is the D37 Road which is under construction by Sable Contractors. Since 2006, I have never met any consultant inspecting this road and I sometimes only meet officials from the Road Development Agency (RDA). We should stop engaging consultants and employ more RDA officials, who are more committed to do the job.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I urge the Government to employ more engineers in the RDA in order to ensure the smooth running of the projects. The Ministry has recruited forty-seven officers for provincial headquarters and should increase the number of engineers to replace the consultants.
As for new developments, we expect forty bridges to be constructed with funding from the World Bank in Northern and Luapula provinces. However, after talking to the regional engineer, I communicated with the consultant for these projects and asked how many units were going to be tackled. He did not know, but advised me to wait for a feedback.
Mr Chairperson, last week, I was in my constituency and found that the road to Katele is in a bad state. No one was working on the road. I do not understand why consultants do not go to rural areas but prefer to work in urban areas.
Mr Tetamashimba: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: I would like to emphasise that RDA engineers are doing a commendable job.
Mr Tetamashimba: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: Concerns were raised when RDA engineers purchased expensive 4 x 4 vehicles, but this has enabled them to reach remote areas.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: I would like to commend the performance of the RDA engineers, especially those in Northern Province. They are found everywhere despite Northern Province having twelve districts.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are disturbing the hon. Member on the Floor.
May he, please, continue.
Mr Sikazwe: I am not supporting the presence of consultants at the construction sites because they delay the whole process. For example, bridges that were expected to be repaired could not be worked on because of lack of consultants. Even if consultants are contracted, they do not go to the sites to supervise the works.
Interruption
Mr Sikazwe: Therefore, the Zambia National Tender Board must address the issue of consultants.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: Sir, I suggest that RDA must stop hiring engineers from private construction companies and instead get architects and structural engineers from the Ministry of Works and Supply so that we make progress in infrastructural development.
Hon. Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, our emphasis on the improvement of our road network does not mean that we are challenging the hon. Minister, but we want to ensure that his movements are made easier as he monitors these projects in various places. We want to make sure that all the parts of this country become accessible.
Sir, I would like to comment on the Mukubo Bridge which is found in my district. I am told that this has been put under the Office of the Vice-President. When it was under construction, it was being monitored by the RDA and therefore, the Ministry of Works and Supply had a role to play. Mukubo Bridge is a controversial bridge and has been there for years. The Bailey Bridge materials that were needed to be used in the construction of this bridge are still lying in Kasama. Much has been said about contractors who are failing to complete their projects on time. Therefore, RDA and the Ministry of Works and Supply must have a system in place to train some of its officers to become engineers who can take up such jobs unlike relying on private contractors. For example, Tomorrow Investments Limited was contracted to do the Mukubo Bridge project, but failed to complete the project on time and I think it will take another 4 years to complete this project.
Sir, for example, the Ministry of Education spends a lot of money on fuel on its tours to schools in the province. Instead of crossing the Mukubo Bridge to go to another area, Ministry of Education officials have to take a longer route hence making the tours more expensive for the Government. If we have to develop, we need to think wisely.
Interruptions
Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the road network under the Ministry of Works and Supply.
We do not have to delay repairing and replacing the bridges in Northern Province because they have already been funded by the World Bank. There will be nothing like saying that we will get money from the National Roads Fund Agency (NRFA). We need the RDA and would-be consultants and contractors to come on board and do the needful for the people of Northern Province. They have been out of reach for a long time.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Sikazwe: As I mentioned earlier, some pupils have stopped going to school because the bridges that were washed away have not been replaced.
With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on this Vote. I am also grateful to all the Members of Parliament who found it necessary to give advice to the Ministry. It is important that when an opportunity like this arises, all the advice is passed on. To those who have not had the opportunity to speak but wanted to speak, I am certain that the hon. Members who have debated have spoken on their behalf.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: Sir, we had a seminar on the Annual Works Plan some time this year and this document was distributed to almost all the Members of Parliament. However, it is disappointing to note that some of the hon. Members of Parliament have not found time to read through what was distributed. I will give two examples just to prove a point.
On page 1 of the Annual Works Plan, Item 1.19, there is Kabompo/Zambezi/Chavuma Road for feasibility studies this year. If you go to Programme 12, Item 126, there is T2 Junction to Mukuku Bridge, Samfya and Mansa with an allocation of K4 billion.
Mr Chairperson, what I am trying to say is that it is important that when documents like this one are distributed, people must read and talk about what is in these documents than conclude that nothing has been allocated.
Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: Merely talking about these projects without reading our Annual Works Plan does not give a good picture. Therefore, I advising the hon. Members of Parliament that it helps to start from a lower level and then go up.
Having said so, I want to comment on what various hon. Members of Parliament have spoken about. The first one is Hon. Mwansa who bemoaned the bad state of the road from Mukuku Bridge to Samfya. I entirely agree with him. We have discussed this before and this is a road that I well know about. We shall start working on it this year.
Mr Mwansa: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: However, the road from Mansa to Kashikishi is still very bad …
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: … especially, around Mwense area.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: We are seriously looking at it and as we work on the other roads, we shall also work on that road. It does not make sense to allow our road infrastructure that is already in place to deteriorate to such levels.
The construction of Chembe Bridge is on course, although I heard some Members of Parliament saying it is a promise.
Hon. Members: Yes!
Mr Simbao: Well, I challenge those Members of Parliament to pass through Chembe and see what is happening. There is work day and night. The contractors are casting and launching a deck every two weeks. They have done six so far, but they are supposed to cast thirteen decks. They cast two decks per month. For this reason, we will definitely finish decking and launching by July. After that, we have to do the approach roads and this can take another two months because we have to fill up a height of three metres to get to the top of the deck from where the roads are right now. Therefore, this means that we need to import materials from some place to fill up three metres and this will take another one to two months. However, hon. Members of Parliament must know that work is on going. There is nothing to stop it.
The hon. Member of Parliament for Luapula talked about the Pedicle Road.
Dr Machungwa: Yes!
Mr Simbao: The Pedicle Road is under feasibility studies this year. Now, talking about feasibility studies, I heard somebody say that after we do a feasibility study, we do nothing. A feasibility study is done so that one is aware about the kind of expenses to be expended on a particular project. In most cases, all important projects must have feasibility studies done because that is the only way one can sell their project. You cannot sell a project if you do not have a feasibility study at hand. Therefore, all important projects in this country must have feasibility studies ready.
Normally, what happens is that if a feasibility study goes beyond two years and you cannot sell that project, the organisation that wants to fund the project will ask you to update that feasibility study. You will not be asked to redo the feasibility study. Therefore, feasibility studies are done where there is economic sense. After that, we then start looking for money to do those projects. However, it does not mean that when a feasibility study is done, immediately the project commences. Sometimes, we do not have the money at hand to carry out a feasibility study. Therefore, Pedicle Road is one of the roads that is under feasibility studies this year.
It is a gravel road. Upgrading it to tarmac road will mean redoing it. We shall, first of all, try to work on the bad tarmac roads before we start handling the new tarmac roads. I hope the hon. Member of Parliament can understand that.
Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament also talked about Government buildings. He is very right that most of the Government buildings are very bad, but I would like to use the word, “eye sore”. However, we have started working on this. If you go to certain ministries like the Ministry of Health where the hon. Member of Parliament worked as a Deputy Minister, you are going to see a new building. If you go to the Ministry of Works and Supply, you will see a rejuvenated building. If you also go to the Ministry of Home Affairs and, in particular Lusaka Central Police, you will see from the roadside a lot of work going on.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: If you go inside the Lusaka Central Police building, you will also see a lot of work going on. We are working on Government buildings, but it is true most of them have been left to waste.
With regard to Major Chizhyuka’s contribution, he was soft but talked about the blacklisting of forty-two companies. I must say that there is no one who is very happy about this. If all these companies were performing as required, no one will take pride in blacklisting forty-two companies. The Government is not there to punish its citizens. We feel very bad that we have had to come up with such a big number, but we are still asking ourselves here and elsewhere if there are still other companies that are not part of these forty-two. If you know any, please, bring forward that company. As long as you know the bad things that company has been doing, bring it forward.
Madam Chairperson, what we want to do is to help each other, both the companies that are being suspected and clients who are the people of Zambia, that next time we start giving out the contracts, the companies can utilise money for the intended projects and not just to use a third of what is given and two-thirds disappears elsewhere. That is what we are trying to avoid.
Of course, in this process, some companies will be found guilty. No company as yet has been found guilty. Those companies which will be found guilty in the process will be punished. For those companies that will not be found guilty, of course, they will continue with the works as expected. This step has not been taken to punish any company, not at all. Unlike the hon. Member said, yes, it might affect our work this year and we are very worried trying to see how we can succeed in achieving what we have planned this year with this problem that we have right now.
With regard to Major Chibamba’s contribution, he talked initially about companies being assisted by Government. As Government, we want all the Members of Parliament to know that we are there to assist all companies and citizens. There are some companies which came to us saying that they needed assistance because they could not access cement and lime and because we are the client, we took it upon ourselves to assist these companies. If any company has a problem, let them come and discuss with us that problem and we will be able to assist and solve that problem. It is not just directed to a few companies, but it is open to all companies including citizens, as individuals.
Madam Chairperson, he also talked about the Building Department being in shambles. It is a pity he is not here, but he was right. The Building Department is in shambles, but there are reasons which he knows very well having worked at the Ministry of Works and Supply. He knows that, first and foremost, all the projects referred such as schools, health posts and clinics were not awarded by the Ministry of Works and Supply, but by the various ministries. The position now is that everything is supposed to be under Ministry of Works and Supply. Among the forty-two companies that have been blacklisted in building infrastructure, very few were awarded by the Ministry of Works and Supply. Please, let us understand that Buildings Department has had very little say in most of these projects. Now, things are changing and the Minister of Education and Minister of Health have agreed to transfer those responsibilities back to the Buildings Department so that it can take the sole responsibility of infrastructure being built in districts and provinces.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: It is also important to understand that because of the way this department was pulled apart, it only maintained one person in each province. Now, there has been a suggestion to employ four people in each province. However, I agree with Major Chibamba and so there has been progress on this issue.
With regard to Hon. Kakoma’s contribution, let him understand that the Mutanda/Chavuma Road is very important and there is an allocation of K37 billion this year. Last year, there was an allocation of K20 billion. Please, understand that a contractor has one unit and that is the maximum he can do. He has a limit. If that contractor is able to raise more than one unit, he can do more than what he is able to do at a time. At the moment, a contractor has only one unit and he can only do about 40 kilometres because there is an allocation of K37 billion. Therefore, he is able to work on 40 kilometres this year.
Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mooya bemoaned the status of small-scale contractors and I totally agree with him. However, he must understand that we have tried very hard to upgrade these people. We have spoken with these people several times than anyone else. The problem that we face is that hon. Members are the ones who come to complain about the small contractors doing shoddy works. Even when we try to explain that what he is doing is labour best and the kind of scope of work is A, B, C and D, the hon. Member do not want to accept. They want a commercial contractor with machinery. That is why we have a problem. How do you balance this when hon. Members do not want to accept small contractors who are Zambians to get involved in this industry? It is not the Government which is not interested in small contractors, but hon. Members. The Government is very interested in small contractors. That is why we still have our school where we always ask these people to come and upgrade their skills so that eventually may be they can graduate to higher grades in rating. We are very much concerned with the small contractors.
I must also talk about the Masangano/Luanshya Road because it has been spoken about so many times. I am very concerned, but I think it is important to talk about this road. This road when a feasibility study was done, 15 kilometres was completely condemned. It required complete reconstruction. Unfortunately, the money which was available was meant just to do that part of the road. However, the fear was that if we reconstruct that 15 kilometres, before we come back to the rest of the road, the rest of the road might come back like the 15 kilometres which was very bad. A decision was made then to apply this money across the entire road and this was a mistake.
Maybe we should have just worked on the 15 kilometres or waited to secure enough money to reconstruct the whole road. However, the beauty with this is that the company that did that work, knowing this problem, has agreed to go back and rework those areas which are very bad. As a Ministry, we have also realised that the road is very bad and requires reconstruction. We are looking for funds to reconstruct the entire stretch of that road.
As regards the issue of consultants, we must understand that consultants are basically in three categories. We have full-time and part-time consultants. Now with the part-time consultants, they are never found every time on the project. One has to maybe make an arrangement with them to find them on the project. We also have full time consultants like the ones at Chembe Bridge. Those are expected to be there every time. At least one of them must be there all the time. When hon. Members go to a project and do not find a consultant, they should not assume that the consultant never visits that project because most of these consultants we are referring to are part-time. Therefore, hon. Members should please appreciate that consultants are in three categories.
Finally, I would like to thank all the hon. Members of Parliament for their support and we need this support as Ministry of Works and Supply, through and through, so that we can achieve this work. It is not an easy job.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Vote 64/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 64/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 64/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 64/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 64/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
VOTE 76 ─ (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development ─ K60,771,453,586).
The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Namulambe): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for this opportunity to make a policy statement in support of the 2008 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.
Mission statement
Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for my Ministry is as follows:
“To effectively promote, co-ordinate and monitor child, youth and sports development in order to contribute to sustainable socio-economic development for the benefit of the people of Zambia.”
Policy framework
Mr Chairperson, my Ministry is responsible for implementing three Government policies, namely, the National Sports Policy, National Youth Policy and National Child Policy. These policies have been revised in the recent past and have now been consolidated in the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) which for the first time since independence has included a chapter on children and youth.
Mr Chairperson, the following are the major programmes contained in the 2008 Budget, department by department:
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is ironic for hon. Members of the Executive to make noise when the hon. Minister is making his policy statement. Can we listen because he is making an important statement?
Hon. Minister, can you continue.
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, there are basically four departments in my Ministry which are as follows:
Department of Human Resources and Administration
The main function of the department is to effectively co-ordinate all the administration, human resources development and management and to provide management and logistical support services for the Ministry. The Ministry completed its recruitment and placement exercise last year and we now have a full establishment. The department will continue to provide management and logistical support services to ensure the efficient operations of the Ministry.
Department of Sports Development
Mr Chairperson, this department is responsible for co-ordination, monitoring and implementation of sports policies and programmes. Sport plays a very important role both in social and economic development of any nation. Apart from providing entertainment, sport is a medium of learning which cuts across tribal and ethnic affiliations, inculcates a culture of tolerance, self discipline and builds self esteem.
Sir, it is against this background that in 2007, Cabinet approved the hosting of the 10th edition of the All Africa Games in 2011 so that the nation can benefit from the values that sport can offer.
The staging of the 2011 All Africa Games has taken centre stage in the programmes of my Ministry. The Government has already put in place the Local Organising Committee, which is also known as COJA in French, comprising both the public and private sector organisations. In addition, the President has appointed a Cabinet committee of hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretaries to oversee the work of the Local Organising Committee.
Mr Chairperson, some work has already commenced such as the rehabilitation of the Independence Stadium and under the Ministry of Works and Supply, the tender processes will very soon be completed and we expect work to commence by the first or second week of April. The International Olympics Committee has also given Zambia a multi-facility sports complex which is being constructed in Lusaka just next to the Independence Stadium.
Other major projects to commence this year include the construction of a games village and indoor sports facilities at the University of Zambia. My Ministry will also commence the programme for talent identification across the whole country and in all the districts. Capacity building programmes for all sports associations will also take root. These programmes are going to ensure that Zambia does not just host the games but also reaps the maximum benefits. The Government is also determined this year, as is enshrined in the budget, to buy the necessary sports equipment which is going to be distributed to all the districts in the country.
Mr Chairperson, it is also realised that the hon. Members of Parliament play a critical role in trying to promote youth soccer in their respective constituencies. As a result of the same, my Ministry will commit some of the funds to buy some footballs to be given to the hon. Members of Parliament so as to promote soccer in their respective constituencies.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Department of Youth Development
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, the core function of the Youth Department is to provide opportunities for youth empowerment. This is done through various activities including skills training, youth expositions, youth resettlement and the provision of micro credit.
Mr Chairperson, my Ministry has at the moment, sixteen youth skills resource centres at which the youths are trained in various skills. The 2008 Budget has provided for funds to construct four new youth resource centres and rehabilitation of one in Mbabala Constituency. This programme will continue with emphasis on demand driven courses which are relevant to community needs.
Youth Empowerment Fund
Mr Chairperson, following the enactment of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission Act No. 9 of 2006, which this House passed, my Ministry is working in conjunction with the commission to ensure that the disbursement of the funds are given to the youths in Zambia.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Mr Namulambe: In 2007, the Government had provided for Youth Empowerment Fund amounting to K30 billion. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning has since released this money and has been transferred to the Citizenship Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC).
Interruptions
Mr Namulambe: My Ministry officials are working in conjunction with the officials of the CEEC to ensure that those applications that were submitted through my Ministry are attended to and that the funds are disbursed to the eligible youths.
Interruptions
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, in the 2007 and 2008 budgets, we did not provide for the Constituency Youth Development Fund because the funds that were released in 2006 in most constituencies was disbursed to the respective youths after the confusion in December last year.
Hon. UPND Members: Why?
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, some people have been trying to politicise the issues concerning the youth funds. It is against this background …
Hon. PF Members: Yourselves!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us listen.
May he, please, continue.
Mr Namulambe: … that my Ministry …
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, let us listen. If you want to counter attack what he is saying, you will have the opportunity, but for now, let him speak.
May he, please, continue.
Mr Namulambe: It is against this background that the Citizenship Economic Empowerment Commission being neutral and free from partisan politics will administer funds related to the youths in consultation with the department of youths which falls under my Ministry.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Mr Namulambe: This is going to ensure that the fund reaches the most needy youths.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I have taken trouble to travel to most of the districts in Zambia and the complaints that I have been receiving are that some of the youths did not benefit from the funds that are given because of political affiliations. It is as a result of this that we feel that CEEC which is a creation of this House can effectively manage the funds. We, as a Ministry, shall provide guidance to the youths in Zambia.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Namulambe: We have the programme to construct at least one youth resource centre in each district. The idea is to ensure that the youths are equipped with the necessary skills, including that of the project proposal writing.
Mr Chairperson, the Ministry is also working with some churches that are running the youth skills training centres so as to equip the youths with the skills that are necessary for them to benefit from this fund.
Department of Child Development
Mr Chairperson, the Department of Child Development is responsible for the overall co-ordination and monitoring of the implementation of the National Child Policy. In this regard, a number of programmes aimed at protection and promotion of children’s rights as contained in the Child Policy have been planned in the 2008 Budget and the 2008-2010 Medium Term Expenditure Framework.
Mr Chairperson, the rehabilitation of street children at the Zambian National Service (ZNS) camps is progressing very well. Currently, there are ninety girls at the Kitwe ZNS Camp and 388 boys at Chiwoko Camp. The Ministry has since worked out an exit strategy for the trainees, which is going to see most of them being settled in co-operatives and it would be easier to support them in this way.
In order to strengthen the co-ordination and regulation mechanisms of various stakeholders involved in child development, the Ministry has started the courses of establishing the Zambia Council for the Child. I shall soon be presenting a Bill to Parliament later this year on the establishment of the Zambia Council for the Child.
Conclusion
In conclusion, may I just make a pledge to the nation that all resources that have been allocated to my Ministry are going to be managed in the most transparent and accountable manner in view of the controls that have been put in place. I, therefore, request the hon. Members of Parliament to support the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for my Ministry for the 2008 financial year.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Chairperson, at any given time that I am afforded the privilege to debate on the Floor of this House, I find it prudent to remind the House that the core business of the Government is to improve the welfare of its citizenry.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Katema: May we remind ourselves that 68 per cent of the population of Zambia comprises of youths and 52 per cent comprises of women. Zambia is the eighth youngest country in the world. What a blessing!
In most of the Scandinavian countries, the biggest demographic problem that they face is the aging population, meaning that there is a shortage of first blood to take over work from the aging generation.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Katema: Our Scandinavian friends are short of young people to drive the economy. Here, this resource is in abundance to the point that we have given this blessing a misnomer of the problem of youth unemployment. Out of the total population in Zambia of 12 million, 7 million people are employed and of which 492,700 are in formal employment and more or less 3.5 million are in informal employment. This leaves out about to 3.5 million youths idling. Yes, we have been told that the places in formal employment are scares, but there is a sector which is so elastic that it is hardly saturated. It is so dynamic that it can be harnessed into a prime mover of the economy and that is the informal sector.
This is the sector which can and should redeem us from the vice of youth unemployment.
Mr Chairperson, this brings me to a very brilliant idea of the Youth Empowerment Fund that the Government came up with. If the problem is identified, it should not be spared. There is a problem of unemployment amongst the 68 per cent of the Zambian population, which is made up of the youths. The solution is job creation, the window of hope is in this unsaturated informal sector and the trigger of the process is empowerment of the youths. Therefore, let us not mince words, but provide the youths with the empowerment fund. It will not do to say that there is a fund somewhere at unidentified body and where all citizens can get the money from. The problem here is definite and that is youth unemployment. The Government has identified the importance of the youths in the nation and hence has established a relevant institution which is the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development. Let this Ministry tackle this problem. If it has no capacity, let it then be dissolved. It cannot do to prepare the youths through education and provision of recreation, then in the final analysis, when they are ready to take up their role in the development of the country, we dump them. It will not do because then, the whole process of improving the welfare of the youths will be futile.
Mr Chairman, this reminds me of what one specialist on the development of African countries rightly observed, and I quote:
“It is not that African countries lack ideas, but that they lack consistency.”
Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!
Dr Katema: “They change plans at every corner they meet a challenge …”
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear, Ebaume aba!
Dr Katema: “… rather than tackle that challenge.”
Mr Chairperson, if the Government is facing a problem in disbursing the funds, let it solve this problem. Let the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development take a leaf from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing which when there was problem of politicising the Constituency Development Fund (CDF, it did not withdraw the fund but increased it.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili: Long live Silvia!
Dr Katema: The Ministry solved the problem of the CDF, but how did she do it? The ministry put this fund under the office of the hon. Member of Parliament squarely and held each and every hon. Member of Parliament accountable for it. What is the outcome? The results are evident for every one of us to see.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Katema: Mr Chairperson, the bottom line is the political will.
Mr Chongo: They do not have.
Dr Katema: Let us show the political will here. The Civil Service has the capacity to handle the fund. If any one of us does not have the capacity to handle the fund, let him step down.
Mr Chongo: Not the District Commissioners.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Katema: If it is the technocrats who do not have the capacity, then somebody else here has no capacity and so let him step down.
With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chongo: Continue.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for catching your lovely eye.
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I just want to say that young people played a critical role during the struggle for independence in this country. I would be failing in my duties if I did not appreciate some of those who were youths then and are still alive, and May their Souls Rest in Peace.
I would like to acknowledge the role played by Dr Kenneth Kaunda, Mr Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe, Mr Arthur Wina, Mr Rupiah Banda, …
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: … Michael Sata and many others that were youthful at that time.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairman: Order!
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, the Lewanikas of this world and the list is endless.
Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairman, is the hon. Member who debates well all the time in order to suggest today that Mr Michael Sata was one of the freedom fighters who helped the cause of national direction during the freedom movement when, in fact, knows that Mr Michael Sata, on the basis of the information that was presented even in this House stood against freedom fighters in court?
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Major Chizhyuka: Is he in order to mention such a name which never participated in the process on the basis of what he did against the people of this country?
Interruption
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! This is one point of order where the Chair would have no difficulty because the hon. Member for Sinda said that the list was not exhaustive. With particular reference to Mr Michael Sata, I can confirm because I was a youth in those days that he participated in the freedom struggle. Therefore, he is in order.
May the hon. Member for Sinda, please, continue.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Ngoma: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Again, it was your lovely eye which I caught first and now I have caught your lovely ruling. I thank you, Sir.
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: Sir, over 60 per cent of the population in this country is youthful and as such, we need to take a serious reflection on the needs of this population group. However, a Zambian youth today is in a very desperate situation. The level of unemployment is alarming. This is so despite the country being on a positive note economically.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, a lot of young people today are involved in prostitution leading to an increase in the spread of HIV/AIDS. A lot of young people also are involved in vices such as theft and other illogical vices. This has been compounded by a number of factors and one such factor is that the Government has paid lip service to the needs of young people.
In this country today, we lack role models. In the past, people would point at Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Julius Nyerere, Nkwame Nkuruma and many others as role models. Sadly, young people today lack role models. It is for this reason that I want to throw a serious challenge to all hon. Members of Parliament to lead serious lives so that we can be role models to the young people of this country. At the end of the day, that is going to bring economic development.
Mr Sichilima: How can you be a role model if you are not married?
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: Bikiloni, keep quiet!
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, the youth fund which came during an election year was a very gigantic step in reducing poverty, especially for rural youths.
Interruptions
Mr Ngoma: I saw Hon. Magande on television the other day distributing cheques to youths in his constituency. The question that needs to be answered is that, what was wrong with that? Is it because youths in Chilanga Constituency embezzled those funds and that is why these funds are being taken away? The problems in few constituencies should never cause the whole country to suffer.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: It would be prudent to punish those erring constituencies as opposed to a blanket punishment. What wisdom is there in increasing the distance of accessibility to funds? Why should you move resources from Katete and Sinda, in particular, to Lusaka? Believe you me, this so-called Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission will just at the end of the day become another white elephant.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: The mention of Lusaka, especially in rural areas, brings about elitism. I, therefore, appeal to the Government of the day to take another look at this issue.
When I look at the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development closely, I notice that he is a very youthful hon. Member of Parliament. Now, I know why it became so easy for his colleagues in the Cabinet to arm-twist him …
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Yes.
Mr Ngoma: … and take resources that were well meaning for his Ministry and he was sitting arms akimbo in that Cabinet.
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: In fact, he sits next to the hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services and I wonder what they advise each other.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair. Otherwise, you will invite them to hit back.
May he, please, continue.
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.
Sir, is it a mere coincidence that resources for women empowerment in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services have been taken to this commission which we have not even seen the way it is going to operate? Is it by coincident that they sit next to each other? I urge both hon. Ministers to put their feet down.
Interruptions
Mr Ngoma: Like somebody said, this fund is similar to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Despite the numerous problems which were there, Hon. Sylvia Masebo worked tirelessly …
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: … to increase the money from K30 million to K400 million that we are today talking about. Hon. Ministers should not be arm twisted. There is no hon. Minister who is superior to the other. You are all equal.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: I am debating like this because I have seen what these funds have done in my constituency.
Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, is my young brother who is debating so well in order not to emphasise that the problem is that people like Hon. Mulongoti who have no constituencies fully supported moving of these funds to the commission so that those of us with constituencies remain with nothing?
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Dr Machungwa cleverly wants to …
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: … debate the issue.
May the hon. Member for Sinda, please, continue.
Laughter
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, before the point of order was raised, I was saying that I have seen the impact which these funds have brought in my constituency. With the K40 million given, if Sinda had a population of 10,000 goats, we are talking of 11,000 goats today in the constituency. As people sell these goats, there is money being generated in the constituency. Youths are involved in carpentry work and brick-masonry. There is a lot of positive impact on the ground in my constituency. Therefore, I am not debating from an ignorant perspective.
Mr Chairperson, the policy of the MMD, as at now, is to move towards decentralisation. Now, is it decentralisation to move funds from local communities to the White Elephant in Lusaka?
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: What type of decentralisation is that? As a Government, let us be consistent with our policies and programmes. If you mean well as far as decentralisation is concerned, then leave these funds at the district or community level. If there are erring hon. Members of Parliament whom you think were trying to misapply or misapplied funds, take them to the courts of law. Let the law take its course. Do not punish us because of those few erring officials somewhere who are just, in my view, imaginary.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, finally, a few days ago, there was a meeting at State House …
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.
Mr Kambwili: Mulebako serious imwe!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.
Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament who is debating so well and about to quote a very misleading statement in order to talk about a meeting which he was not privy to and was wrongly reported?
Hon. Opposition Members: It is in the newspaper.
Mr Shakafuswa: Yes, it was wrongly reported in the newspaper.
Interruptions
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you raise your point of order?
Mr Shakafuswa: Is he in order to bring to this House a report which is disputable and unfounded? I need your serious ruling, Sir.
Mr Ngoma: Ah!
The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair’s serious ruling, Hon. Ngoma, is that you are speaking, as he says, very well for all of us. It was my intention that after you, the youth, has spoken very well for all of us, there would be no need to continue debating this vote. Can you take into consideration that point of order as you debate, please?
May he, please, continue.
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your wise guidance. Whether or not the reports in the press were a gross misrepresentation, it is not my duty to correct it. However, I would like to refer to something that has been written. We quote from books, magazines and newspapers and if you have got a bone to chew with The Post, that is your own baby to nurse.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, on Page 1 of The Post newspaper of Thursday, 13th March, 2008, there is a story which reads, “Levy, NEC differ over administration of youth funds and women funds.”
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, allow me to quote, and it reads:
“MMD Members of Parliament and some national executive committee (NEC) members…”
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Ngoma, we normally allow to quote from a cutting. If you have The Post newspaper, I think it is better to read from where that article is because you will after quoting from it lay on the Table. You cannot lay a cutting on the Table. Therefore, if you do not have a full copy of The Post newspaper, leave that point and go to the next point.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I will not quote since I do not have The Post newspaper in full. However, the bottom line is that even the President has been taken to task over this issue.
Interruptions
Mr Ngoma: He was told by a number of …
Hon. Government Members: By who?
Hon. Opposition Members: Kaingu!
Mr Ngoma: … hon. Members of Parliament that these funds should be left in the constituencies…
Interruptions
Mr Ngoma: …and not be brought to Lusaka. I am, therefore, throwing a serious challenge to the Government not to mislead the Republican President.
When he came to officially open Parliament a few months ago, he talked about the youth funds to be placed in constituencies and districts. Now, a few days down the line, you go and mislead him. It is wrong. Let us be sincere and love our Head of State by telling him the truth. All I am saying is that let these funds be taken where they belong.
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, there is an amendment proposed by Hon. Lubinda, the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata which this House needs to support.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Ngoma: Sir, for the sake of those that did not go through the votes and proceedings, the amendment is about taking money from the contingency funds, because we do not know what contingencies we might have, and take it to the Constituency Youth Fund. All of us including Back-benchers of MMD should support this amendment because it is for our own good.
Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.
Mr Mabenga (Mulobezi): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for according me the opportunity to debate on the vote.
First and foremost, the policy statement made by the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development is very encouraging. It leads to prosperity.
Sir, the Ministry’s task of ensuring that our youths are exposed to a number of courses that will be able to help them improve their own livelihood is very important and, therefore, must be commended. I have noticed that the Constituency Youth Development Fund is a problem because it has been moved to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund.
Mr Chairperson, I will read and refer to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) Act, 2006. If you look at the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission Act, Part 11, No. 63 (b), it says:
“In carrying out its functions, under sub-section 2, the Commission shall take into account and be consistent with any policies of the Government relating to decentralisation, gender, youth, technical education and vocational training, land, trade, commerce and investment”.
Mr Chairperson, this means that the commission has been given a responsibility of ensuring that the youths are given this money.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, this House is for adults and not children, like certain people we know.
Mr Kambwili: Question!
Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I do not really see anything wrong in having money administered by this very important piece of legislation that this House put into place.
Hon. Opposition Members: Question!
Mr Mabenga: This piece of legislation was put in place so that it functions.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabenga: How can we have a piece of legislation put on the shelves just to gather dust? This piece of legislation registers commissioners who get sitting allowances and officers appointed by the Public Service Commission that get salaries. I think that it would not be fair for these people to just sit and do nothing for this country. Therefore, the people charged with this responsibility should work. I do not see anything wrong because the Department of Youth Affairs in the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development will look at the applications, approve and make sure that money is used on the projects. What is the problem there? I do not see any problem.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, in the Yellow Book, I noticed Programme 8, Activity 06 ─ Monitoring and Evaluation of Youth Empowerment Fund Projects ─ K330,000,000, this means that the Ministry will be charged with the responsibility of monitoring projects.
Interruptions
Mr Mabenga: It is not a question of having the money in the constituencies or districts, but to ensure that this piece of legislation that you put into place works. If, for example, someone in this House feels that a mistake was made to pass this piece of legislation, then let that person come up and ask for a repeal of this piece of legislation.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabenga: If this is done, then that will be meaningful. You cannot bring pieces of legislation and yet you do not want to use them.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised
Mrs N. J. M Phiri: Mr Chairperson, I have never risen on a point of order. Firstly, I would like to apologise to the hon. Member on the Floor who …
Hon. Opposition Members: Do not apologise.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: He is my father. Is he in order to mislead this House and the nation by saying that the legislation over the commission that we passed in this House means that funds should be moved from this body, especially from youths and women, and take it to the commission?
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is your point of order?
May she, please, continue.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: Is he in order to mislead the nation by saying that funds for youths and women should …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Phiri, you are debating. What is your point of order?
May she, please, continue.
Mrs N. J. M. Phiri: … be spread? I need a very serious ruling, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair is unable to make a serious ruling on that issue because people are making observations and comments on what they think and so the Chair will allow people to say what they think. However, what is correct will prevail at the end of the day.
May the hon. Member for Mulobezi, please, continue.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Mabenga: Mr Chairperson, I am sure I have made my point quite clear. Therefore, I stand here to support the budget for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. In fact, I would like to propose an increase in the funding so that we can see more development in as far as empowering of youths is concerned.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, this is another vote where, if it were possible, all of us would speak. I hope we will not be repeating ourselves. However, I will give chance to Dr Chishimba to contribute because I think he is a youth.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Hon. Member: Ba youth.
Dr Chishimba (Kasama): Mr Chairperson, somebody is saying that I am a youth and I must probably declare interest in the debate.
Laughter
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, the theme of my debate this morning is “Strategic Options for Youth Development”. What options do we need to deal with? Is it those of dealing with the past, present or the future?
What it means is that we have seen a culture or propensity of dealing with the wrongs of the past at the expense of today’s challenges and the future.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, we want to deal to with the wrongs of the past, which has never really past. Unless we come out of the arrangement where we just deal with the wrongs of the past, we shall not as a country realise meaningful youth development in our country.
Mr Chairperson, the participation of young people in development will lead to money equitable development. It is incontrovertible that young people have won an important gift and that is youthfulness. Youthfulness presents with it the energy, creativity and the potential to try and venture into new challenges or to try and come out of captivity.
This is because many at times, we are held captive by our past experiences. We need to come out of that.
Mr Chairperson, this culture of referring young people to as future leaders must come to an end.
Major Chizhyuka: Yes.
Dr Chishimba: When President Mwanawasa was officiating at the Commemoration of the Youth Day on the Youth Day, he appealed firstly to young people to resist being used by elderly persons.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: He said that do not be used, but at the same time, he said that young people are the leaders of tomorrow. On that, my view is that they are today’s leaders in their own right.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: Even that event itself, it was a part of the commemoration of the role that young people played in the struggle for independence. In another words, we were reflecting on the leadership which was provided by the youth to lead this country to independence. As I said, young people have broad capacity. They have the innovation and creativity to contribute to the national development and young people have done so during the struggle and after independence.
Mr Chairperson, if you look at history, you will establish that without the role that young people played, this country was going to take long to gain her independence.
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: On 1st January in 1952, the late Simon Mwansa Kapwepwe said, “I am now growing stronger in planning for the future of my country”. In 1952, that great son of Zambia among others was looking and reflecting the future of the country. He was just at the age of 30 years and others were even much younger. They were genuinely concerned with the future and struggle of their country. At that time he was in India and he said, “The first thing which I am going to work on is to form a body which is going to spearhead the provision of education in Central Africa”. This is because he realised that without education, it was going to be very difficult for freedom fighters to gain or achieve their objective of obtaining independence in our country. Then, he said, “I am also going to start a national farm through which resources are going to be generated for us to be able to fight colonialists in my country”.
Mr Chairperson, in 1952, he said, “At the age of 30, I feel this inner age, the responsiveness, growing to participate in the field of leadership and provide leadership in my country. As I ponder with all my political future in Northern Rhodesia, I am resolute that what we need is to ensure that we empower the people of Northern Rhodesia educationally and in terms of agriculture. Above all, there is need to promote unity as young freedom fighters in order to lead the country to independence.” That is the role among others which young people played.
Mr Chairperson, you will establish that when other nationalists were arrested such as Dr Kaunda, Mr Nkumbula and Mr Sikalumbi in 1955, that was the time others returned from India.
When the African National Congress (ANC) leaders were arrested for their participation in the struggle …
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: … Kapwepwe, as a young nationalist, moved into that hot seat which was left by Uncle Harry Nkumbula and started directing operations and working closely with Mr Sikalumbi and Edward Mungoni Liso to lead the country to independence. Records and empirical data are there to establish these truths.
Mr Chairperson, at the command post or helm of power, Kapwepwe’s message in his telegrams to ANC branches was, “Do not worry, the fight has just started.”
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: He meant, of course, the art of communicating with everyone dealing with the party functionaries. He inspired them and that is leadership which was provided by young people. He told his supporters to wear cheap black jumpers as a sign of saving money for the struggle and black arm bands in the mornings for the jailed nationalists.
Mr Chairperson, during the same period, he organised with other young people demonstrations against the jail terms of freedom fighters. That was leadership. He was given an applause when he addressed a meeting in Kabwata when he said, “In my country, when the leaders of any nation or national movements are sent to jail, it is the beginning of freedom. The African National Congress is the board which is preparing the Africans for self-governance. We are going to love it.” The message was very inspirational and clear.
As today’s leaders, we face the challenge of communicating to young people what this nation stands for. We have several options. When we are talking about development, are we trying to promote some kind of a welfare state where youths are just offered some kind of relief? Is that what is going to take this country forward? Are we going to promote …
Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me yet another chance to raise a point of order. I am gratified by the analog of pre-independence events as given by the hon. Member on the Floor who is so articulate.
The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order, Major?
Major Chizhyuka: Sir, is he in order not to mention that during the struggle when people like Dr Chileshe were arrested, there was a constable …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Major Chizhyuka: … who stood against …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I fail to understand what the enthusiasm is all about.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair does not think that Major Chizhyuka should go beyond what he has already said.
Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member for Kasama, please, continue.
Laughter
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, these young nationalists brought in militancy in the struggle for independence. They were courageous and appealed to each and every participant in the struggle for independence to be militant and above all, to be courageous. Courage is what we need even in the challenges that we face today.
Mr Chairperson, when the new splinter party was formed, it was again the sixty young people who met in Kabwe at a place called Mulungushi. When they met, somebody proposed the new party to be called Muchinga Africa National Congress after the Muchinga Escarpment. Another person proposed the new party to be called Zambesia. When Kapwepwe stood up, he said, as a publicist, that name would be too long and complicated. We shall just call it Zambia and became to be called Zambia African National Congress (ZANC) as you are aware. This is the name, Zambia, by which we later came to be called as a country. All those ideas were coming from young people such as suggesting the name of this country by which we are called as a country.
Mr Chairperson, even though there was pressure at that time for the locals to lead ZANC, he encouraged Kaunda because they used to work together to lead the party. Dr Kaunda became the President of the new party, ZANC. Dickson Konkola as Deputy President, Mr Sipalo as Secretary-General, Mr Kapwepwe as Treasurer and Mr Kamanga as Local Treasurer.
Mr Chairperson, this splinter party was formed by the rebels out of the constitution-making differences that were there in 1959 based on the Monkton Advisory Constitution Commission. They formed that splinter party in order for them to resist to the terms of reference convoluted in the terms of reference. However, at the time when the First National Constitutional Conference was called, these young people decided for the very first time to unite with all daring among others to go and participate in the London Conference. That was leadership, and then gave the side of their story during constitutional-making, which was very important at that time.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: By the time they came back, when Sir Arthur Benson decided or unilaterally maintained his position of perpetrating or letting the White rule to continue including the federation, what these young people did was to simply launch the Cha Cha Cha, hence the importance of that militancy which was introduced or inaugurated into the struggle for independence.
Mr Chairperson, in the process, these young people provided leadership leading to the 1972 Constitution which again, saw United National Independence Party (UNIP) get some seats because ZANC turned to UNIP as you are aware, then at the same time ANC also had some seats. However, these people again, united in diversity. They were united in diversity to …
Mr Chota: On a point of order, Sir.
The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.
Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, is the able hon. Member who is debating …
Hon. Government Members: Aah.
Mr Chota: … in order to forget that the Ministry of Sports, Youth and Child Development has the best brains to administer the Youth Constituency Development Fund?
The Deputy Chairperson: Well, he is in order. He is free to say anything he wants.
May he, please, continue.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, in 1962 when the likes of Kaunda and Kapwepwe among others were part of that government, these people were in their 30s. By the time of independence in 1964, Dr Kaunda himself was at the age of 40 and others even much younger. They were in their 20s and 30s. When you look at the first Cabinet of eighteen people, it delivered. Why? This is because young people had the energy, innovation and creativity, of course, to steer the country forward.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: Between 1964 and 1972, these young people worked. They built infrastructure things that we see in this country now.
Interruptions
Dr Chishimba: That foundation which was established was strong. We face a challenge today of getting to the basics and learn something from that. These young people were speaking one language because you would find that a Member of Parliament from Eastern Province was made Minister in North-Western Province and somebody from Western Province went to Northern Province because we are one country.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Dr Chishimba: You will realise that we have the slogan, “One Zambia and One Nation”. That was the kind of leadership which was provided by young people. However, young people today cannot be called babies. Young people have the capacity to participate and contribute meaningfully to development.
Mr Chairperson, I thank you.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief in winding up this debate. I thank all the hon. Members who have contributed on this vote.
Mr Chairperson, my observation is that there is a problem on the management of change concerning the Youth Empowerment Fund. The Youth Empowerment Fund is different from the Constituency Youth Development Fund (CYDF). There is no shifting of funds whatsoever. If you have read the National Youth Policy, you will note that it talks about the Youth Empowerment Fund. However, the youth can still access the fund that will be administered by the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), because they are Zambians. This fund is for all Zambian citizens. The youths will access it as our Ministry will play a critical role in leading them.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Namulambe: Mr Chairperson, I have answered questions on two occasions from two hon. Members who were trying to find out whether the Ministry would re-introduce the Constituency Youth Development Fund (CYDF). I said that the Ministry is working out mechanisms of how we can help the youth and avoid complaints. The most effective way, in my view, is to firstly give skills to the youths and, thereafter, give them capital. We cannot just tell the people to use the CYDF because some of them want to use it for their own campaign. I think time for that is gone.
Interruptions
Hon. Government Member: Kambwili!
Mr Namulambe: If you are not popular and are hoping to use the fund to gain popularity, you can forget about it. Let us manage change and we cannot fail to manage this change because the youths out there are looking forward to benefit from this fund and we are going to provide that leadership as a Government.
I thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 76/03 – (The Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Youth Affairs Department – K9,256,238,145).
Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment to Vote 76/03 Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, Youth Affairs Department under unit 3 – Inspectorate Unit, Programme 7 – Youth Empowerment and Entrepreneurship Development – (PRP), Activity 01, by the insertion of K15,000,000,000.
The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Chairperson, I rise to oppose this amendment. As has been indicated clearly by the hon. Minister of Sports, Youth and Child Development, we have made a decision that all empowerment funds shall come under one control. Youth funds and projects will now be dealt with under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) and, therefore, I do oppose that we recreate a fund which the Minister responsible is not happy with. If it does not work, the hon. Minister and I will not be responsible for lack of action.
I thank you, Sir.
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development. In winding up his vote, he made a very important statement that he recognises the fact that youths require a targeted programme. He also mentioned to this House that he wants to work on the modalities so that he can reintroduce this fund next year. That is obvious at variance with the statement given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.
Dr Scott: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: This goes to show that there is value in the amendments that we propose.
Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: I would like to take advantage of the movement of this amendment to state that nobody, on this side who debated in favour of the Constituency Youth Development Fund, condemned the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund. As a matter of fact, the majority of the people on this side support the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund and would like it to succeed. When some hon. Members debated the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, they actually lamented the fact that it did not have sufficient resources. The amount of K120 billion was not sufficient. Therefore, it must not be confused at all with the intention of the amendment.
The amendment is promised on the fact that the youths that we are talking about are youths out there in Pemba who would like to have K3 million to start a goat rearing project and youths out there in Namwala who would like a K2 million grant to start a co-operative on fishing. This is the kind of money that youths want in small amounts.
Sir, in proposing this amendment, we are trying to protect the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund as well as the youths. We are aware that if the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund is to succeed, it should be management prudently and for commercial purposes. It should be managed for the sake of growing the industrial base of Zambia. Whereas the youths we are talking about, like the hon. Minister stated, are desperate for sources livelihood. They are desperate for programmes that will reduce the levels of loafing amongst them. They are looking for moneys that they shall use for innovation. This is in keeping within the spirit of the President in 2005 when he came to this House. He stated that the Youth Empowerment Fund shall be in three components. One of the components would be for the issues that the hon. Minister spoke about and that is the establishment of national, provincial and district industrial complexes for youths. Secondly, the money was for Youth Inventors Fund and the third was money meant for Constituency Youth Development.
Sir, this is the money that we are proposing. In case some people are being misinformed, there is no intention whatsoever with the amendment to reduce the money from the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund. If you look at the adjoining amendment to this, you will see that the vote that is being targeted is what I have referred as an idle vote. This is a vote that has been used over the years to lock up resources. The point we are making is that in a year when the theme of the budget is, “Unlocking Resources for Wealth Creation,” we cannot afford to pass a budget where we are locking up K90 billion in a vote that will not be effective.
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: Sir, I would like to indicate very clearly to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that this side of the House is doing this with the best of intensions. We are not doing this out of malice and we are not doing it because we think that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development does not have the capacity to manage the funds. We always say, he is …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
(Debate adjourned)
___________
HOUSE RESUMED
[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]
(Progress reported)
_________
The House adjourned at 1256 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 18th March, 2008.