DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE SECOND SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 15th August, 2008

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo):  Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

Sir, on Tuesday, 19th August, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider stages of any Bills already presented.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 20th August, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider a Private Members’ Motion to be moved by the Hon. Member for Roan Parliamentary Constituency, Mr C. Kambwili, MP, namely ‘Retirement Age for Public Service Employees.’ After that, the House will consider the stages of any Bills already presented.

Sir, on Thursday, 21st August, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. The House will then consider the Second Reading stage of the Supplementary Appropriation (2006) Bill, 2008. The House will then deal with any other outstanding stages of Bills before it.

Sir, on Friday, 22nd August, 2008, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider any other business that may not have been concluded on Thursday, 21st August, 2008.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT
EARLY RECESS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF ZAMBIA

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, I beg to make a Ministerial Statement on the early recess of the University of Zambia (UNZA).

Sir, prior to the commencement of the negotiations for improved salaries and other conditions of service at the University of Zambia, the Ministry of Education called the University of Zambia Management to various meetings chaired by, among others, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, the Minister of Finance and National Planning, Hon. Magande, MP and the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet for Economic Development.

Mr Speaker, in these meetings, the financial position of the institution, in particular, the difficulty the university was facing to meet its monthly operational expenditures, including the wage bill, was discussed. The university indicated the need for an additional K20 billion to be considered for the institution to bridge its budget deficit in 2008.

Sir, during the meeting with the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the university management was informed that the Government would consider applying to Parliament for a supplementary provision of K20  billion to go towards the operations of the university. Further, the university management was informed of the Government’s directive to all grant-aided, parastatal and statutory institutions that no such institution would be permitted to offer a salary increase exceeding 10 per cent in 2008. The Ministry of Education has since applied for a supplementary provision of K20 billion for the University of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the university management was also given a Cabinet circular minute of 2007, dated 5th July, 2007, issued by the Secretary to the Cabinet, outlining the procedure for approval of proposed improvements to salaries and other conditions of service by all grant-aided, parastatal and statutory institutions. In this circular, it was indicated to all Permanent Secretaries that all grant-aided, parastatal and statutory institutions under their supervision must submit the proposed improvement to salaries and other conditions of service to the office of the Secretary to the Cabinet for clearance before they are implemented.

Sir, without due regard to these instructions, the University of Zambia management signed a memorandum of agreement with the two unions of their institution to award a salary increase of 15 per cent across the board. The university management, in June, 2008, then sought authority from the Ministry of Education to effect the already agreed 15 per cent salary increase across the board. Upon receipt of this request, the Ministry of Education made consultations with other relevant Government institutions. Arising from these consultations, it became clear to the Ministry of Education that the University of Zambia was unable to finance the proposed salary increment.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Education has been indicating to the university management that their submissions reflected a budget deficit on personal emoluments and that they still had a debt in excess of K259.8 billion. On the basis of these submissions, I indicated to the Vice-Chancellor that it was apparent that the University of Zambia had no financial capacity to sustain the proposed 15 per cent increase across the board.

Mr Speaker, in view of the indebtedness and unsustainable financial position of the university, on 22nd July, 2008, in exercising the powers vested in me by Section 33 of the University Act, Act No. 11, of 1999 which reads:

“The Council shall, subject to the approval of the Minister, conclude an agreement on salaries and Conditions of Service with the appropriate trade union, if any,”

I informed the Vice- Chancellor that I was unable to grant authority for the proposed 15 per cent salary increment to unionised staff.

Mr Speaker, when the University of Zambia was asked to explain why it had signed a memorandum of agreement with the unions without authority from the Ministry of Education, the university management in a minute dated 3rd July, 2008, stated:

“The university management regrets that while operating under extreme pressure to normalise operations at the University of Zambia in the midst of industrial unrest, it gave in to a demand by the representative groups to increase salaries by 15 per cent for 2008. Management sincerely apologises for the turn of events in 2008 and undertakes to ensure that future increments to salaries will remain in accordance with Government guidelines, which shall be sought ahead of the commencement of negotiations.”

Mr Speaker, on 17th July, 2008, the acting Chairperson of the University of Zambia Council met with the representative groups. At this meeting, she called for patience and wisdom in dealing with the impasse as it was necessary to ensure that the operations of the institution were not disrupted. Further, she intimated that except the University of Zambia, all grant-aided, parastatal and statutory bodies had agreed on salary increments of not more than 10 per cent for 2008.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, the acting Chairperson of the Council informed the Government, in a meeting chaired by the Deputy Secretary to the Cabinet on 26th July, 2008, that the University Council did not authorise the signing of the memorandum of agreement, and that it was not aware of any such document, and that she was seeing the document for the first time at the meeting.

The University of Zambia academic staff and other union members resolved to undertake an unlawful industrial action in which the members of the three university unions being the University of Zambia Lecturers and Researchers Union (UNZALARU), the University of Zambia Allied Workers Union (UNZAAWU) and the University of Zambia Professional Staff Association (UNZAPROSA), decided to withdraw their labour and services to the university. The go-slow action began on 9th July, 2008. The continued go-slow by both the academic and non-academic staff, subsequently, led to a students’ riot on the night of 29th July, 2008.

Mr Speaker, in view of the continued instability at the university, the senate resolved to bring forward the recess to allow for consultations. It was also considered to take such action to avoid keeping students who were not learning on the campus. At the same time, it became a cost, on the part of the Government, to maintain students who were not learning. With these considerations, the senate decided to close the university earlier than intended. Therefore, this closure is an early recess since the university was to stop classes by 15th August, 2008, but this was brought forward to 6th August, 2008. Examinations were to take place from Monday 25th August to Friday, 12th September, 2008. This recess is supposed to last for three weeks, up to 24th August, 2008.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Education has continued to dialogue with all the stakeholders, including the University Council, the three unions, Cabinet Office, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU), with a view to resolving the problem at the University of Zambia. It is expected that a solution will be arrived at after these consultations.

Mr Speaker, whilst the Government has endeavoured to take measures aimed at redressing the current impasse at the university, it remains concerned about the consistent lack of regard for established laws, procedures and guidelines exhibited by the university management, union representatives and members of staff at the University of Zambia. It is noted that the persistent accumulation of huge debts by the university has compounded the financial instability of the institution. The Government will continue to work with the University Council to find lasting solutions to the indebtedness of the University of Zambia in order to make it financially sustainable. Some of the measures currently being considered include:

(i) the real estate development plan for the university;

(ii) business ventures; and

(iii) consultancies.

Mr Speaker, the Government has demanded that the University of Zambia maintains up-to-date audited accounts which will inform the general public on how public funds allocated to the institution are being utilised.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa laid the paper on the Table.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, while we appreciate the problems that the university is going through now, does the hon. Minister consider revisiting the formula for gratuity, which now stands at five working months for each year served, which is a lot of money. I do not see how the institution can sustain itself financially if people are getting so much money.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is a subject which is currently under discussion.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, does the seemingly hardworking hon. Minister of Education agree that the university authorities and the unions had a compelling case for agreeing to a 15 per cent salary increment in view of the fact that civil servants were awarded a 15 per cent increment.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there is no compelling case because University of Zambia personnel are in a grant-aided institution and as the guidelines stated, they should not have gone beyond a particular parameter.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.
 
Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, from the statement made by the hon. Minister, it is quite clear that the closure was merely an early recess. I would like the hon. Minister to assure the House that since this was just an early recess decided by the senate, the examinations will go on as earlier scheduled.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, in instituting an early recess of the institution, the senate did point out that it would review the decision it made if need be. So, we stand to be advised by the senate on what the course of action will be when that review is undertaken.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Education what difficulties the Government is facing in effecting the 15 per cent salary increment for the lecturers.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

 Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is a matter for negotiation and the unions do not negotiate with the Government, but management.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Speaker, it is reported that the hon. Minister of Education is recruiting a Vice-Chancellor from Botswana to take over from Professor Simukanga. Could the hon. Minister confirm this to this House.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, that misinformation to the nation was peddled by some hon. Members of this House, …

Interruptions

Professor Lungwangwa: … which is most unfortunate.

Mr Speaker, the process of recruitment of a Vice-Chancellor and other principals of the university in our public universities is very clear. It is also clearly outlined in the University Act which was approved by this House. No Minster can impose a Vice-Chancellor on a public institution without following the laid down law of the land. Therefore, what was stated emphatically in the public media is a total lie on the part of those who were peddling …

Mr Speaker: Order! The word ‘lie’ is unparliamentary. Could you please withdraw it.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would like to withdraw the word ‘lie’ and substitute it with ‘misinformation’. That was an expression of deep ignorance on the part of those who were peddling the information.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! Let me remind the House that this House is not the place where rumours are reported and discussed. Once a Member starts his or her question by, ‘It is reported,’ it is the same as using the phrase ‘It is rumoured’. No rumours are allowed in this House. I allowed that question to enable me make this clarification and reminder to all hon. Members of the House. There is no exception to this guidance.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, in view of the huge responsibility on the shoulders of university lecturers, has the hon. Minister considered paying them a responsibility allowance.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, like all other staff in the university, the academic staff is employed by the University Council. According to the established law of the land, the University Council superintends over the affairs of the university, including the employment of staff and institution of conditions of service which are appropriate to members of staff. It is not the hon. Minister of Education who employs members of staff of the university.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what plans his ministry has put in place to avoid yearly disturbances at the university.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, some of the disturbances are caused by those who think that the university is a political battle field.

 Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: The university is not an institution where people should contest for support.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: These political fortune seekers are responsible for some of the disturbances which …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … the university experiences. We have reports that some politicians spend a lot of time on that campus, thereby, fueling disturbances,

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: We are extremely aware of that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, on the other hand, the disturbances are a result of not following established procedures in the institution, underlying laws and the code of conduct governing staff and students. Therefore, to some extent, there is a degree of indiscipline, especially on the part of students, which results in anarchy.

Sir, as a Government, we are concerned about that and are taking measures to ensure that the code of conduct and the established procedures in the laws of the institution are respected by the various stakeholders in order to instill discipline and avoid anarchy in the institution.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): The hon. Minister indicated that the union negotiates with the university administration. Now that the union clinched a deal agreed to by the university administration, do they not think that morality demands that the Government goes ahead to look for the money and pays them?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

I wish to warn that those hon. Member of this House who make unpalatable or even palatable interjections while seated will soon find themselves in great difficulty because they are not protected by freedom of speech in this House. Only those who are granted the Floor have that protection. Therefore, interjectors, beware.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member says, now that the members of staff have clinched a deal with management, should the 15 per cent not be awarded.

Mr Speaker, the law which was passed by this House, as contained in the University Act, Act No. 11 of 1999, states very clearly that:

 “the Council shall, subject to the approval of the Minister, conclude an agreement on salaries and conditions of service with the appropriate trade union, if any.”

Mr Speaker, this is what I was referring to when I talked about not following laid down procedures and laws of the land. Clearly, any negotiations between the respective trade unions and management have to have the approval of the Minister as laid down in the law. So, the deal is not clinched until that approval has been given.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said clearly that the demands being made by the staff and the conditions being requested were not sustainable by the university and he gave some long term solutions. To me, that spells some kind of stalemate. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister that despite him saying that the closure was an early recess, what short-term solution has the Government put in place. In addition, he said that the staff is employed by the university and not the Government, but meanwhile, the universities are funded by the Government to the tune of almost 80 per cent. What solution does the Government have to ensure that by the time the recess is over, the conditions that caused it are not repeated and there is no stalemate?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the short-term solution to the impasse lies in the negotiations that are currently going on. We have a technical committee that is currently in place and effecting the negotiations. In terms of long-term sustainability of the institution, as I indicated in the Ministerial Statement, the institution has to be enabled to come to a viable position financially, which will make it sustainable. As a Government or ministry, we are working very closely with the University Council to ensure that we institute, in the institution, measures which will make the financial position of the university stable. For example, ensuring that the institution develops the real estate plan which is currently in place and which was approved by the University Council in 2005.

Mr Speaker, the real estate development plan has a business potential to generate sufficient resources for the institution. There are also measures like co-ordinating consultancy activities in the university which are extremely important.

Sir, I should point out that there is no public university that thrives on public support alone. Universities the world over rely on grants and their own expert services to industry and the public sector by marketing the expert potential of the university. Universities rely on their own research potential because they have inbuilt in them the intellectual capital of the world …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … which enables the institution to enter the market place of service and turn their intellectual property into patented products which generate resources for the institution. All these are measures which our public universities should be alive to so that they are able to generate resources in order to address some of these pertinent financial difficulties they are in.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has stated that any future negotiations at the universities shall be subject to consultation with the Government before agreements are entered into. I am sure that there is K200 billion which could have been carried over from past administrations. Does the hon. Minister now confirm that the university has had very bad administration in the past and present and this shows the incapacity to run the University of Zambia as well as the ministry?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I would not say that there was bad administration. The difficulties of the institution were compounded by a number of factors, among them, under-funding.  However, these are currently being addressed.
Mr Speaker, we are also aware of the need to look at the financial management of the institution. That is why we have put in place an audit process so that the financial records of the institution are credible.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, an undisciplined household is a reflection of how that house is run. The University of Zambia cannot be an exception. If, as we have heard from the hon. Minister of Education, there is anarchy at the institution, that is a pointer that the senate, management, including the Government, are not running the institution properly. Can the hon. Minister of Education make an emphatic statement to this House that the happenings at the University of Zambia are not going to be an anthem in this august House, year in and year out, by making a statement that will give us hope that, for once, the University of Zambia is going to concentrate on what we established it for.

 Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I did not quite get the question or the comment from the hon. Member, but if he is concerned about the statement I made that indiscipline is one of the factors which affect the institution, especially on the part of students, that clearly is a statement of fact. I can substantiate that by saying that a few months ago, students agitated that they wanted an increment to their meal allowance and stated that they had a right to negotiate for the meal allowance.

Mr Speaker, I am on record for stating clearly to the students that the forms which they sign for the bursary award indicate in no uncertain terms that the meal allowance on the bursary which they get is non-negotiable by either individual students or their representative group. The students are aware of that. Therefore, for them to go ahead and agitate that they have a right to negotiate for those benefits, is, in my interpretation, a clear sign of indiscipline and disregard of established procedures, laid down rules and regulations. This is what I meant when I said that the disregard of established procedures, rules and laws of the institution is what contributes to indiscipline and fuels anarchy resulting in the type of behaviour which we see like students going to the roadside to stone cars of the innocent public. That is unacceptable and must be brought to an end and that is what we are doing as a Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, notwithstanding the hon. Minister’s comment on political machinations as well as indiscipline at the campus, can he accept that the continuous closures caused by salary disputes and students’ riotous behaviour are symptomatic of the deeply embedded long-term problems at the university? Can the hon. Minister, therefore, assure this House that the measures that he is taking, such as the long-term measure of estate development will result in a situation where we have a viable university with a proper learning atmosphere and no closures. Can he also indicate the time frame within which he hopes to achieve this state of affairs.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, it is, indeed, the aim of the Government to stabilise our public universities. A university is a merit institution which is established to train the much-needed human resource that is critical and fundamental to the development of the nation. Therefore, we cannot afford to have a situation where a university is constantly destabilised by continuous strikes. We are, indeed, taking measures to ensure that the deeply rooted factors contributing to the instability of the institution are addressed and stemmed out of the institution.

Mr Speaker, we have just completed an Institutional Audit Research Programme in partnership with the Commonwealth Higher Education Department which came to look at what is obtaining at the Copperbelt University (CBU), University of Zambia (UNZA) and the Mulungushi University. From that institutional audit, we should be able to take measures which will fundamentally address the root causes of the problems of the institution and contribute significantly to the stability of the university. We would like to see UNZA and the other public universities fulfilling their mission of teaching, research and providing expert service to our nation. This is extremely important as we strive to develop as a country.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister outlined a few grand ideas on how he thinks an ideal university should be run in order to generate its own income. The same hon. Minister, in the recent past, was Deputy Vice-Chancellor of UNZA. Therefore, I would like him to outline what has changed now for him to believe that these grand ideas can be implemented, and yet when he was in office, nothing of what he has talked about was implemented.

Mr Speaker: The Chair has ruled in the past that although each one of you comes from a specific background in terms of your previous professions, it is not the procedure of this House to insinuate that because someone was the hon. Minister in the ministry that he or she is now criticising, that former Minister should be held responsible for what happened in the ministry or should not freely discuss matters that are before the House in the ministry concerned. That applies to those of you who were engineers in certain ministries, Vice-Chancellors at various universities and farmers, but are no longer able to farm.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Your concern is to deal with matters of the present with a free mind and without being reminded of some unfortunate things that you may have done in the past.
Laughter

Mr Speaker: I shall grant only one more hon. Member an opportunity to speak on this matter. The hon. Member for Mbabala

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister assist this House understand, if at all, there is anything the Government can do with regard to programmes that are not bursary funded. There are programmes that we parents pay for in the university. However, when there are problems at the university, the children who pay full fees are also affected. This causes them to graduate three to four years later than they should. Is there any way the Government can influence the making of a distinction between students that are funded by bursaries and those that are funded by individual parents?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, when such situations arise, they affect even those who pay from their own resources. However, what the university has done in the past and which it does even now, is to ensure that some schools continue operating while other schools are closed. For example, the School of Medicine has never been closed due to disturbances in the university ever since it was established. Since 2003, the School of Law has not been affected by closures of the university.

Clearly, Mr Speaker, the concern of the hon. Member is the concern of many parents who pay out of their pockets and face major problems when the institution is closed. I would urge members of the public to express that concern strongly because that type of concern is what can contribute to the creation of stability in the institution. When the stakeholders express very strongly that they would not like to see such disturbances which affect the normal operations of the institution and, in turn, affect the financial position of the parents that are paying heavily for the education of their children, it can contribute to the creation of stability in the institution. The voice of the public must be injected in the institution. I have not heard any profound statement from any of our leaders regarding the instabilities and disturbances which go on at the institution. Why are the political leaders, especially those in the Opposition, not condemning …

Mr Sichilima: Hammer!

Professor Lungwangwa: … the disturbances which take place at the institution? Do they not know the impact it has on the pockets of parents who are paying for the education of their children …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: … and on the general economy of the country? The Opposition, in particular, must come forward and condemn such disturbances instead of using the university as a political battlefield.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I am certain you appreciate the need for the amount of time you have usefully spent on this statement. As you notice, the statement is not on the Order Paper. Therefore, we have not even begun the day’s business on the Order Paper. It is, therefore, my understanding that hon. Members will be brief and to the point on the matters that are on the Order Paper, which must be concluded before 1255 today. The Order Paper is quite long.

____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

RECRUITING OF FOOTBALLERS IN RURAL AREAS

331. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development whether the hon. Minister had any plans to compel the Football Association of Zambia and all football clubs in the country to recruit players from the rural areas where there is abundant potential soccer talent.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Taima): Mr Speaker, my ministry has the Talent Identification Programme (TIP) under the 2011 All Africa Games budget line which was, in fact, approved by this House. We are currently utilising this budget line to try and ensure that, as much as possible, talent in all sports disciplines, including soccer, is tapped throughout our nation and particularly from rural areas.

In view of the above, the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ), schools and all other national sports associations are expected to work very closely with my ministry and the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ) in the implementation of this very important exercise. So far, we have had a number of sporting events and tournaments to which coaches and other technically competent people have been invited to observe with a view to having them help us spot and develop the abundant talent that we have in our nation.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures the ministry has put in place to promote sport in rural areas.

Mr Taima: Mr Speaker, as clearly outlined in our response, we have an extremely ambitious programme in our ministry to try and ensure that much of the abundant talent, in not only soccer but the various sports disciplines that exist in our nation, is tapped and developed. We have what we call provincial and district sports advisory committees which are charged with the responsibility of coordinating and organising as many sports events as possible to which technocrats are invited to help spot the abundant talent which we later develop and which will ultimately culminate into the constitution of various national teams.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, in view of the determination by the ministry to improve sports in rural areas, what is the Government doing to improve the supply of sports equipment to schools in order to avoid very creative young boys from using condoms as footballs, which is quite prevalent in rural areas?

Laughter

Mr Taima: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member of Parliament for Chienge for that question. Though the question is not specifically on the distribution of footballs, it is an important question and, therefore, I will attempt to explain what we are doing as a ministry.

Our ministry is working very closely with the Ministry of Education because, as the House is aware, we do not run schools. Suffice to say that currently, as pronounced with a lot of emphasis by His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, physical education, commonly known as PE, has been made a mandatory inclusion in the curriculum by the Ministry of Education. As a result of this, we are working very closely with the Ministry of Education to try and ensure that sport is revived as much as possible in our schools.

As the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development, we are trying to distribute footballs and other sporting equipment where we can so as to ensure that sport thrives as much as possible in our schools. Therefore, if there are any areas where pupils are using condoms to make footballs, I think that, very soon, it will be a thing of the past because we are extremely determined to ensure that we supply the necessary sports equipment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF HIGH SCHOOL IN CHIEF NABWALYA’S AREA

332. Mr Malama asked the Minister of Education:

(a) whether there were any plans to construct a high school in Chief Nabwalya’s area since the area was usually cut off from the only high school in the district due to floods in the rainy season; and

(b) how many middle basic schools were in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency, chiefdom by chiefdom.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the ministry plans to build a high school in Chief Nabwalya’s area. This will be captured in the ministry’s 2009 budget.

Mr Speaker, there are twenty-five schools in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency, broken down as follows:

 Chiefdom   Number of Schools

Chief Mpilumba  12

Chief Nabwalya  05

Chief Mukungule  08

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Mfuwe, are you satisfied?

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I am very satisfied and I thank the hon. Minister for that response.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

REVENUE COLLECTED FROM PLOT SALES IN KAOMA DISTRICT IN 2007

333. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Lands how much revenue was collected through the sale of plots in Kaoma District in 2007.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Hamir): Mr Speaker, I wish to state that the Government does not sell land. However, the Government, through the Ministry of Lands, does receive consideration fees for whatever land is offered. In 2007, my ministry offered fourteen properties in Kaoma District. Out of this, only eight properties were accepted and consideration fees amounting to K6,050,000 were received.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Limata: Mr Speaker, what I wanted to find out from the hon. Minister is the truth about the sale of plots in Kaoma District because most of the people there are getting plots for free.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Machila): Mr Speaker, the council in Kaoma has an agency that is still in place and the hon. Member of Parliament is a member of that council. Therefore, I would expect that she would address this issue through her council.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

MEASURES TO AVERT THE EFFECTS OF AN IMPENDING MAIZE SHORTAGE

334. Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives what measures the Government had taken to avert the effects of the impending maize shortage in the country following the floods which devastated the country during the 2007/2008 rainy season.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Mulonga): Mr Speaker, food insecurity will be experienced at local level, particularly in those communities that experienced unfavourable weather conditions, notably flooding. However, the Government, through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit under the Office of the Vice-President, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and with support from our co-operating partners, is working to address food insecurity in the affected communities.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether the Government considers it its responsibility to ensure that in times of need, as is the case with regard to food this year, it moves in and ensures that its population everywhere is secure.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, that is what the Government has done. We are, day in and day out, delivering food through the office of the Vice-President to the affected areas. Therefore, as a Government, we are currently and continuously doing that.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, clearly, the ministry has thrown the responsibility for this season’s food security to the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and the Office of the Vice-President. Apart from the subsidy that you are providing, what else are you doing to ensure that we do not have food insecurity next year, given that the small-scale peasant farmer who voted you into power does not have money to buy fertiliser even at the current subsidised rate?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, if I remember very well, this is the third time this week he is asking that question.

Laughter

Mr Mulonga: He is talking of the current and long term measures. For the long term, we have already moved in and procured fertiliser. We want the inputs to reach our farmers as soon as possible so that they begin to plough in order to have enough food next year.

May I take this opportunity to inform my colleagues where this happened, for example, in Kaseya in Kazungula, that with or without floods, we were going to have problems in that area because the people there are not farmers. Most of them are fishermen. I went there barely three days after the President had left the place and had a meeting with them. They informed me that they were in that area in order to fish. Therefore, they are not farmers. Therefore, with or without the floods, there would still have been food insecurity in that area. It is upon us, as hon. Members of Parliament, to go and talk to our people and make them see the need to settle somewhere else where they can have food.

For example, the type of soil in Chief Musokotwane’s area is sandy loamy which cannot support maize growing unless with a very heavy fertiliser application. What we need to grow there are groundnuts which do better in such soil.

Again, I had a meeting with the extension officer as well as the local people to try and diversify farming there. In Kazungula I had a meeting with Headman Sekute who also admitted that they needed to diversify their crop production. If we are going to continue talking about maize, day in and day out, we may not achieve what we intend to. Let us try to work with our people and educate a few of them. Of course, we know that I might have been acquainted with cassava growing, but there is a need to change when you see that there is a change of weather.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that some maize which was bought in 2006/2007 in Chadiza is rotting in some sheds, and yet people are dying of hunger?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, to the contrary, not so much maize is rotting. What is happening is that we had some spill-over maize sometime back which we kept in the same sheds in which we are keeping the current maize. Therefore, there was a transmission of left over maize from the other side to the side where we are getting the current maize. After every three months, we fumigate the current maize. We have kept it strategically because there are concerns by hon. Members that we may have a food shortage. So, we cannot misuse that food at this time. We want to keep it, but I can assure the House that we fumigate it and keep it safe.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, echoing the sentiments of my cousin from Chadiza, in the light of the food insecurity in the country, why has the Government reduced the buying points in areas that grow rice such as Chienge? The number of buying depots in Chienge has been reduced from thirty-four to two when there is so much rice grown in Lambwe, Chomba and Kaputa areas.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, it is true that there has been a slight reduction in the number of buying depots not only for rice but also maize. However, as a Government, we anticipated that the private sector would take centre stage when it came to the buying of crops. We wanted to concentrate on production to make sure that we had enough food in the country because when it comes to buying, anyone can do that. For example, National Milling Company and other private businessmen and firms are buying maize and rice throughout the country. Therefore, the reduction in the buying depots means that, as a Government, we are only going to concentrate on far-flung areas leaving the accessible areas to our private partners. As a Government, therefore, we may only provide two buying depots in a particular district, but we expect the private sector to have six or ten buying depots there since food is already available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, commercial buyers like National Milling Company and Antelope Milling have never accessed areas like Chimbamilonga in Kaputa District and yet we have a lot of maize. The distance from such areas to the satellite depots is very big and transport is quite expensive. I do not know how they are going to mop up all the maize in such areas so that people can have money to pay the 75 per cent required for the them to purchase more fertiliser in order to increase their production.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Chimbamilonga for raising that question. The question is similar to the one raised by the hon. Member for Chienge and other hon. Members from different constituencies. Our expectations may be different because once we produce, we should not rely heavily on the Government to buy our produce. Even individuals can carry out that exercise. There are people with grinding mills in the various districts. These people can buy the maize from their fellow farmers, grind it into mealie-meal which they can sell. Of course, due to limited resources, we do not have the capacity to have ten or twenty buying depots in each and every district. However, I would like to encourage the hon. Member, if he has a mill, to become a buyer in order to buy, grind and resell to the people in his constituency.

I thank you, Sir.

MEASURES TAKEN TO CAPTURE REVENUE FROM THE INFORMAL SECTOR

335. Mr Mwansa asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning what measures the Government had taken in the last one year to capture revenue from the informal sector.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Shakafuswa): Mr Speaker, over time, the Government has put a number of strategies in place to capture revenue in the informal sector through the tax system. Currently, the Government is collecting tax from this sector through four broad tax  types, namely, Presumptive Tax, Advance Income Tax, Turnover Tax and Base Tax all targeting specific business size types.

Presumptive Tax

Mr Speaker, Presumptive Tax was introduced in 2004 to capture public transport operators such as mini-bus and taxi operators that are not registered under company tax. It is a specific tax graduated according to the sitting capacity of the buses and it is determined on the annual basis, but broken down into daily collectable tickets to make it more affordable.

Advance Income Tax

Mr Speaker, Advance Income Tax was introduced in April, 2007, to capture revenue from traders involved in international trade. The tax is collected at the border on importation of goods by traders, including those not registered with the Zambia Revenue Authority and may be operating in an informal sector of the economy. It is collected at an ad varolem rate of 3 per cent.

Turnover Tax

Mr Speaker, Turnover Tax was introduced in 2002 at 3 per cent and is collected from businesses whose turnover is less than K200 million and, hence, not eligible to register for company tax.

Base Tax

Mr Speaker, of the four measures taken, Base Tax was the first to be introduced at a specific rate of K50,000 per charge year. The tax has just been adjusted upwards in the 2008 Budget to K150,000 per charge year. It is a form of turnover tax targeted at traders in market places, namely, in rural districts of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, the following is the trend in revenue collection from the informal sector over a period of four years:

Trend in Revenue Collection from the Informal Sector

Tax Type                                          2004                         2205                  2006             2007

                                                          K’ billion                    K’ billion              K’ billion       K’ billion

Presumptive Tax                                1.0                             1.05                  1.85              1.82

Turnover Tax                                      4.3                              9.8                     13               18.7
Advance Income Tax                            _                                _                         _               13.0

Total                                                      5.3                          10.85                  14.85           33.54

Mr Speaker, with the growing economy, there are indications that more revenue will be realised from this sector as the Government continues with more innovative ways of capturing the sector.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, if I have understood the hon. Minister very well, the taxes that have been put in place are taxes that capture revenue at points where the traders or business persons themselves in the informal sector do present themselves to the tax man either at the border or when they are renewing their licences and such other places. This clearly indicates to me that it is still …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is your question?

Mr Mwansa: Just a moment, Sir, I am getting there.

Mr Speaker: Order! What is your question?

Mr Mwansa: Sir, the question is: what measures, in practical terms, is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning taking to ensure that they follow up the business people in the informal sector so that they can tell whether people are carrying on with two invoices and to ensure that they capture them before they bring invoices that are already worked on to meet the challenges of tax?

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I want to thank the hon. Member for that concern. Actually, it is a concern to all of us. When you are collecting revenue, you also take into consideration the cost of collecting that revenue. We have looked at what the hon. Member has talked about and it is a genuine concern. However, we have found that the cost of following that revenue would be more than the revenue which would be collected. We have actually done that. If he wants, he can come to our offices, sit down with us and look at our findings. Yes, there are certain businesses which are out there from which we cannot fetch tax, but the problem is the cost of enforcing compliance. We have done our study. We found out that it was very expensive and only worked in countries where laws made people to be very tax compliant. Maybe, people can go on their own, but for a tax man to go into the compounds to tax everyone will result in the cost of the exercise and revenue collected being at variance.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, since 1990, I have never seen Zambia Revenue Authority come to Chilubi to collect tax. May I know why Zambia Revenue Authority has failed lamentably to touch rural areas with a view to collecting tax.
Mr Speaker: The Chair has guided hon. Members to listen when hon. Ministers are replying. I clearly captured the last part of the hon. Minister’s reply that a number of things considered include the cost of following up people, maybe, in Chilubi or wherever they live.

If the Chair misunderstood that response, the hon. Minister, who is a competent authority on this matter, can find out why he or Zambia Revenue Authority is unable to go to Chilubi to collect tax.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, we do not only collect tax from the informal sector, but also from registered companies which are compelled by law to submit their annual returns. These companies, through their accountants, follow us to the ZRA offices to pay tax. However, I appreciate the enthusiasm the hon. Member has exhibited. I should think there must be a lot of business in Chilubi and I might ask the Commissioner-General of ZRA to see if there is a possibility of sending a team there. That team will start with the businesses of the hon. Member.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister comment on the fact that there are some big businesses that survive on Government contracts which evade tax, and yet they get payments directly from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. Could the hon. Minister explain to this House what measures they are putting in place to ensure that those businesses become tax compliant. We are aware of some of companies that evade tax, and yet they get their pay cheques from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Mr Magande): Mr Speaker, I want to assure the hon. Member for Kabwata that some of our tax laws require a supplier to withhold tax. We call it withholding tax. However, that does not apply to all businesses. Therefore, the contractors the hon. Member is talking about might be those who are not required to withhold tax. They have to get their income and declare their profit and loss accounts. Thereafter, we charge them tax on the basis of those accounts. This is because some of them might end up folding up if the Government presumes that they are supposed to pay tax when, in fact, they have made a loss at the end of their financial year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker gave the Floor to the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I was going to ask the same question that Hon. Lubinda has asked.

Laughter
Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning confirm that the high taxes the workers always bear are due to the fact that the ministry has failed to collect tax from the informal sector?

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I cannot confirm that because we do not balance our Budget on the basis of the Pay as You Earn (PAYE) paid by workers, but on the basis of various sources of revenue. Those various sources of revenue are not computed on the basis of ratios, that is, that PAYE or company tax must contribute a certain percentage. Depending on the activities in the country, these ratios are going to fall. For example, we are now getting a lot of investors in the country who will be making profits. Naturally, the more we get from corporate tax, the less the ratio of PAYE.  Therefore, it is not very simple arithmetic where we sit and say this year we want PAYE to be 2 per cent, company tax 20 per cent or mineral royalty tax 15 per cent, no.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

CREATION OF CABLE SATELLITE TECHNOLOGIES

336. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services when the ministry would create a fund for community radio stations similar to the Cable Satellite Technologies (Casat) television scheme that introduced television coverage  to most districts in Zambia.

The Deputy Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, the ministry has reached an advanced stage on the creation of a Media Development Fund (MDF) to promote and ensure media development and diversity in the country. Wide consultations have been made and the Administrative Manual Framework Paper is now in place. Since the establishment of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission, the ministry is working with the commission which will administer the fund. The ministry, with the stakeholders in the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) sector, will develop the sector codes.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Imenda: Mr Speaker, while I appreciate the plans for next year by the Government, I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister is aware that some of the conditions such as an upfront payment of K60 million expected of community radio stations are an impediment to the acquisition of radio stations by local communities.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, that is not part of the requirements. I do not know where the hon. Member of Parliament got that information.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, late last year, the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services informed this House that the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) was in the process of installing new transmitters for shortwave radio. Could the hon. Minister inform us how far ZNBC has gone in establishing a powerful radio transmitter in order to give a strong signal to rural Zambia and abroad.

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that the installation of the transmitters is in progress at our Short Horn transmitters. Once the installation is completed, obviously, we shall notice an improvement in radio transmission.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I stand to lament that Chadiza is the only district that does not have television reception. When will the ministry install television reception in Chadiza?

Mr D. Phiri: Mr Speaker, five months ago, I did inform this House that we had procured eight transmitters and they were going to be installed. I can confirm that four have since been installed. However, right now, I am not able to give you the names of the districts that have benefited. The installation is in progress and I can confirm that there is a transmitter that will soon connect Chadiza to television reception.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

337. Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East) asked the Minister of Health when the dilapidated structure at Tom Ilunga Rural Health Centre in Mwinilunga East Parliamentary Constituency, which was built in the 1060s, would be replaced by a modern structure.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, the MMD Government is a working Government and I would like to inform the hon. Member that a contractor has already moved on site and a new health post is being constructed.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

RECOGNITION OF LUWI MISSION HOSPITAL

338. Mr Katuka asked the Minister of Health when the ministry would recognise Luwi Mission Hospital in Mwinilunga East Parliamentary Constituency so that it could be provided with the necessary support in line with the Government’s policy of private/public partnership.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, measures have already been put in place by my ministry to facilitate the upgrading of Luwi Mission Hospital into a first level hospital. A technical team comprising staff from the Ministry of Health Headquarters, the Director Technical Support Services and the Provincial Health Office was appointed by my ministry.

Meanwhile, a doctor has already been posted to the institution by my ministry. The hospital also receives drugs and other medical supplies from Medical Stores Limited. Luwi Mission Hospital also receives part of the monthly grant from the District Health Management Team though this may not be enough.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

CRIMINAL CASES PENDING SINCE 2003

339. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Justice:

(a) how many criminal cases had been pending in the courts of law since 2003; and

(b) what were the reasons for the delay.

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Speaker, a total of 1,989 criminal cases have been pending in the courts of law since 2003, broken down as follows:

 Court  Number of Cases

 Supreme Court  21

 High Courts  103

 Subordinate Courts  1,862

Sir, there are many factors which can cause delays in completing court cases. These are:

(a) an increase in the number of cases due to an increase in population. When there is an increase in population, crime also increases. That means there will be many cases going before the courts;

(b) Adjournments  due to Clashing Dates

There are cases where counsel has to attend to two cases at the same time or an accused person has to appear before two or more courts at the same time. In such a case, the higher courts are given precedence. This means that the cases coming before higher courts have to be heard and those in the lower courts have to be adjourned;

(c) Adjournments due to Counsel Not Being Ready for the Case
For instance if counsel was served with documents late or was engaged late by the client, such circumstances will call for an adjournment;

(d) Adjournment due to Illness of a Party

This is obvious. The illness of a party or lawyer can cause an adjournment of the case and that causes delay;

(e) Adjournment due to Unexecuted Bench Warrants

If the courts have issued a bench warrant and are looking for an accused person who has disappeared, if the case comes up, it will keep on being adjourned;

(f) Misplaced Court Records

Due to the number of cases and lack of filing space, you find that case records go missing;

(g) Shortage of Adjudicators

In the magistrates’ courts, we have thirty-two professional magistrates – those who are trained lawyers – and 115 lay magistrates giving a total of 147 against a population of 11 million people. This establishment which we have at the moment is not enough. This can be sorted out by increasing the number of magistrates. There are also considerations to increase the number of judges in the High Court and, perhaps, even in the Supreme Court as a way of addressing the problem;

(h) Absence of Courts in Some Districts

The Supreme Court is only present in Lusaka while the High Court is present in Lusaka, Kabwe, Ndola, Livingstone and Kitwe.

There is no presence of subordinate courts in Chongwe, Sinazongwe, Gwembe, Itezhi-tezhi, Chibombo, Kazungula, Masaiti and Mufumbwe districts and several other large settlements which require the presence of subordinate courts.

Therefore, we address this through the process of circuiting where magistrates go to these places to hear cases.

Mr Speaker, the Judiciary has constituted a stakeholders’ committee comprising the Police, Prisons, Legal Aid, Attorney General’s Chambers and Judges in charge to discuss ways and means of avoiding and reducing delays and congestion in the courts. That is how we are handling this matter.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the ministry is doing to ensure that pending cases are expediently taken to court to avoid detaining people unnecessarily.

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, in my response, I stated that we have put in place a stakeholders’ committee which looks at all these issues, including issues of people being remanded in custody without trial. This is so that we find a lasting solution to the problem which you have raised.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Minister that Lusaka provides a classic example of magistrates being in the habit of starting proceedings late, notwithstanding the availability of sufficient court rooms. Is the hon. Minister aware of this position? If he is, what is he going to do to change the attitude of the magistrates, especially in Lusaka?

Mr Kunda: Mr Speaker, I have taken note of the issues raised. However, I think the learned senior State Counsel has a professional body, the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), which should take up some of these issues. However, I am very grateful for his observation.

I thank you, Sir.

STAFFING LEVELS OF MEDICAL PERSONNEL IN WESTERN PROVINCE

340. Mr Mwangala (Nalolo) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) what measures had been taken to improve the staffing levels of medical doctors, nurses and general workers in health institutions in the Western Province, in general, and in Senanga District, in particular; and

(b) whether there were any plans to post a resident doctor to Muoyo Rural Health Centre in Nalolo Parliamentary Constituency

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health Headquarters posts all trained staff. Suffice to mention that Lewanika Nursing School and other training schools have increased their intakes of trainees in a bid to address the staff shortages.

Sir, Muoyo Health Centre is situated 72 kilometres from Senanga Boma. The centre is earmarked for zonal services. This means that centres like Nalolo, Kataba, Litoya, and Nanjuca refer to it.

However, the stage two health centre does not have a position of a doctor in its establishment. Meanwhile, the centre is manned by four trained staff, a retired and contracted clinical officer, one environmental health technician and one Zambian Enrolled Nurse and a Zambian Enrolled Midwife.

Since the centre will be offering Antiretroviral services (ART), a medical doctor from Senanga District Hospital will be visiting the centre from time to time to attend to the patients.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Stanbic Bank donated an ambulance to the centre in 2006. Later, this ambulance was withdrawn and taken to the district hospital. The people of Nalolo are asking the hon. Minister whether there are any plans to give them their ambulance back because it was donated to them.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, that is a new question. We were not aware of that. At the same time, the district management is mandated to ensure that health services at that level are provided in the best way possible. Therefore, they are able to make decisions, in collaboration with the community, as to where the ambulances or particular services should be. This includes even where the doctors should visit.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

_______

BILLS

SECOND READING

THE INDUSTRIAL AND LABOUR RELATIONS (Amendment) BILL, 2008

The Minister of Labour and Social Security (Mr Mukuma): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, I am pleased for this opportunity to present this Bill and illustrate the enormous benefits it is intended to bring to the Zambia labour market.

Sir, my statement to this august House is structured in two parts as follows:

(i) I will give a brief back ground to the proposed amendment Bill and highlight the practical difficulties that have hampered the current legislation in enhancing efficiency and productivity in the labour market; and

(ii) later, I will outline the benefits that the proposed amendments shall bring to the labour market; 
Mr Speaker, the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Cap. 269, of the laws of Zambia is the legislation that governs the formation of trade unions and employers’ representative organisations, including the formation of federations of trade unions and federations of employers’ organisations, recognition and collective agreements, settlement of disputes, strikes, lock-outs, essential services, the establishment of the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council (TCLC) and the Industrial Relations Court (IRC).

Sir, since the last review of the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, in 1997, the Government has made great strides in implementing far-reaching political and economic reforms which have had a significant impact on the labour market.

Mr Speaker, when the Zambian economy was run by the state-owned companies under the auspices of the Zambia Industrial and Marketing Corporation (ZIMCO) holding group, the employer/employee relationship was a lot easier in terms of recognition or collective agreements and settlement of disputes. The shift from a state-run economy to a private-run economy and the implementation of sound economic policies by the New Deal Government of His Excellency President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, has attracted many investors from different countries. Our economy has expanded rapidly and different labour practices have emerged on our labour market, which has rendered the current Act inadequate.

Sir, it is also significant to mention that in 1996, Zambia ratified two fundamental International Labour Organisation (ILO) conventions namely, Convention Number 87 which gives workers freedom of association and protection of the right to organise and Convention Number 98 which deals with collective bargaining. This measure has generated different reactions and interpretations of the conventions by labour leaders in Zambia.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was saying that the Government by ratifying all eight core ILO conventions dealing with fundamental principles and rights at places of work and also launching the decent work programme in December, 2007, anchored on four pillars aimed at upholding workers’ rights, confirms its commitment to promoting and safeguarding workers’ rights, which are basically human rights.

Mr Speaker, however, a number of challenges which need to be addressed have been experienced in our labour market. The challenges include, among others, the following:

(i) the long time taken to settle industrial disputes;

(ii) the proliferation of trade unions following the ratification of Convention Number 87 on freedom of association;

(iii) the tendency by trade union leaders to resort to breaking away from original and formidable unions to form new unions;

(iv) discrimination at places of work; and

(v) interpretation of certain terminologies.

Mr Speaker, the main object of the Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2008, is, therefore, to address the inadequacies in the current Industrial and Labour Relations Act to effectively manage the outlined challenges.

Mr Speaker, my ministry has held a number of consultative meetings with the major stakeholders dating as far back as five years ago on the review of labour laws mainly focused on strengthening the weak areas in the law as well as making new provisions where they do not exist. Since assuming office as minister, in October, 2006,  several meetings of the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council, which is our main advisory body for consultations on labour matters, including labour law amendments, were held involving the Government and workers’ and employers’ organisations. I, therefore, wish to assure this august House that the process of labour law reforms followed the tripartite arrangement and our discussions have always been cordial.

Mr Speaker, the need to enhance efficiency and productivity of our labour market is the major factor that has compelled us to propose the amendments in the Bill before us. The Bill, among other things, will put in place flexible mechanisms to resolve employment disputes and allow for arbitration.

Mr Speaker, bargaining units, once streamlined, will speed up the bargaining process and ensure that employers do not spend the whole year on negotiations as the number of bargaining units will have reduced. This measure is in line with Article 3 of the ILO Constitution, which I wish to lay on the Table.

Mr Speaker, the measure will also enhance our capacity to enforce the law, resulting in a reduction in the number of cases of breaking the law with impunity. Once the terminologies which are unclear in the current Act are properly defined, the problem of different interpretations will be eliminated. With the amendments to the Act, we intend to strengthen the powers of the Labour Commissioner to effectively provide remedies in the event that trade union funds are misapplied and misappropriated.

Mr Speaker, I wish to emphasise that the measures will not take away the powers of trade unions to appoint their own auditors in fulfilling the provisions of the Act. If anything, the proposed amendment will enable the Labour Commissioner to take punitive action on erring trade unions.

Mr Speaker, the present Act prescribes certain services as being essential in that their non-provision will entail loss of life and destabilise the nation. These include the provision of health, water and electricity. The responsibility of issuing regulations under the Act is given to the Minister. In discharging this function, the State consults with all stakeholders, including the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council. It will, therefore, be inappropriate for the Minister’s powers to be restricted to one particular advisory body when the impact of such a decision would require broader consultations with other stakeholders. It is in this regard that the amendment recommends that the minister determines, from time to time, the services that will be deemed essential.
 
Mr Speaker, managing the labour market under the new economic dispensation is a big challenge. I, therefore, urge hon. Members of the House to be cautious when interpreting some Articles of the ILO Convention 87 on freedom of association. For example, in a bid to exercise freedom to belong to a trade union of one’s choice, would it be right for a member of the Marketeers Association to join the Lecturers and Researchers Union?

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: What a bad example.

Mr Mukuma: The answer is no, because it will not serve a purpose. That is why there is need to regulate the implementation of this freedom of choice to ensure that it provides maximum benefits to the employers, as well as to the nation.

Mr Speaker, I wish to assure this august House that the proposed amendments will, in no way, jeopardise workers’ rights to freedom of association and collective bargaining, the right to form unions, strike and freely bargain collectively.

These amendments are meant to ensure that the freedom of choice is exercised in an orderly manner and seek to enhance the efficiency and productivity of our labour market. I, therefore, urge the House to fully support this progressive Bill.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, your Committee considered various submissions on the Industrial and Labour Relations (Amendment) Bill, 2008, whose objects have been enunciated by the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security.

Mr Speaker, arising from the submissions, your Committee took note of various concerns raised by stakeholders on the Bill. For instance, concerns were raised that some of the proposed provisions were not in sync with ILO conventions, such as Convention 87 of 1948, which provides for the freedom of association and protection of rights to organise, as well as the ILO Convention 98 of 1949, which provides for the right to organise and bargain collectively.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are of the view that the concerns raised by some witnesses need careful reflection by the Government. While your Committee are alive to the fact that Zambia is not bound by conventions, international or regional, that it has not domesticated, they wish to urge the Government that by virtue of Zambia’s membership to the ILO, it ought to respect, promote, as well as do whatever is within its power to realise the principles of the fundamental rights of workers.

Mr Speaker, your Committee note that one of the amendments contained in the Bill is the change to the definition of ‘bargaining unit’, which intends to introduce the concept of most representative trade union. Your Committee appreciate that this is largely because of the recent proliferation of trade unions in industry which sometimes derails the bargaining process, thereby wasting productive time for all the bargaining parties. Your Committee, therefore, recommend that the principle of the most representative trade union be upheld as it will limit the proliferation of trade unions and will save productive time.

Sir, your Committee also observe that the Bill proposes to amend Section 21(3) of the Act, which confers power on the commissioner to appoint auditors where there are reasonable grounds to believe that the officers of a trade union have misused or misapplied funds. Under the same amendment, the auditor is further given power to recommend the expulsion of such officers. Your Committee’s concern is that this can be construed as interference in the operations of private institutions.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, your Committee are aware of the existence of relevant institutions of the Government whose responsibility it is to undertake investigations in cases of suspected fraud whether in private or public institutions. They, therefore, recommend that the existing provision in the law be retained because it is adequate and in line with internationally accepted standards.

Sir, your Committee further urge unions to build capacity amongst their members so that they are able to come up with good constitutions that will help them effectively deal with erring officers, including those who misappropriate their resources.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also observe, with concern, the proposal to delete the phrase, ‘in consultation with the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council’ on the power of the minister to prescribe essential services. This proposed amendment gives the minister discretion to prescribe what might be considered as an essential service. Your Committee fear that this amendment will create room for abuse. They, therefore, recommend that the existing provision in the law be retained so that the hon. Minister exercises this power in consultation with the Tripartite Consultative Labour Council.

 Sir, in conclusion and on behalf of your Committee, I wish to thank all the witnesses that appeared before them for their valuable input to their findings. I also wish to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the support rendered to your Committee during their deliberations.

Finally, I wish to thank members of your Committee for their commitment and dedication to duty during the period that they considered the Bill that you presented to them.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important Bill.

Mr Speaker, in labour and industrial relations, we operate on the concept of tripartism. Even when bringing legislation, there is consultation among the social partners and these are the workers through their trade unions, the employers through the employers’ organisations and the Government as represented by the Ministry of Labour and Social Security and its agencies. That is the way business is done in this area.

Mr Speaker, with regard to this Bill, it is clear that the concept of tripartism was not fully observed. As stated, by the hon. Minister, it is true that there has been consultation, but when you look at your Report, it is clear that true and genuine tripartism was not adhered to. There were some consultations which, according to the Report of your Committee, were considered inadequate. In fact, the consultations that were engaged in were inconclusive as the social partners were not there at the stage of adopting the amendments that were brought. This is, in fact, why there has been an outcry from all trade unions in the country and all those interested in the area of industrial relations that the Government is pushing through this Bill without having carried out proper consultations. I stand to be convinced that the Government actually carried out genuine consultations.

Sir, in Clause 2 of the Bill, the definition of ‘a bargaining unit’ and the concept of most representative group or trade union have been introduced. In the past, the bargaining unit has always been agreed upon by the employers and workers. They say who is going to be in the bargaining unit. There would be leaders from the trade union some of whom may even come from other unions to strengthen the team. Management also has its team. This is always agreed upon. There has been no time when the Government has written, “This and that person shall be members of the bargaining unit,” as is being done now. This is a departure from what has happened here and what happens internationally.

Sir, on the concept of representative trade union, we are now saying that a representative trade union means the national centre with most affiliates or, at undertaking level, the union with most members. That is the new definition.

Mr Speaker, the import of this is that in a given organisation where there are two unions, the one that has fewer members is not considered representative and may not participate in collective bargaining.

For example, let us take the case of the University of Zambia. We have a number of unions there. We have the lecturers’ union, UNZALARU, and the support staff trade union, UNZAAWU, which has been there for a very long time.

In fact, UNZAAWU has more members than UNZALARU. If you consider the concept of representative trade union, what this Act is saying is that UNZALARU, which represents the academic staff, cannot participate in bargaining because its membership is smaller in number than the other union which may not adequately represent its interests. Basically, the definitions and other amendments in this Bill mean workers who belong to smaller unions will not be represented. In fact, this is a way of reintroducing the one union for one industry concept through the back door. This has been rejected as being ultra vires certain instruments that this country has ratified.

For example, the ILO Convection 87 of 1948 on freedom of association and protection of the right to organise allows workers to join any union of their choice and be represented by that union. They should not be compelled to be represented by a union designated by the Government.

Mr Speaker, ILO Convention No. 98 of 1949 on the right to organise and collective bargaining is also being contravened by the provisions proposed in this Bill. This Bill also contravenes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The amendments also contravene the SADC Charter on Fundamental and Social Rights (SADC–FSR).

Sir, most of all, it contravenes Article 21 of the Republican Constitution which I would like to quote.

Mr Speaker, Article 21 of the Republican Constitution states:

“Except with his own consent, a person shall not be hindered in the enjoyment of his freedom of assembly and association that is to say that his right to assemble freely and associate with other persons in particular to form or belong to any political party, trade union or other association for the protection of his interests.”

Mr Speaker, these amendments are depriving our citizens of their right to join and participate in the deliberations of an association they want, in this particular case a trade union. This is because they are being forced to join a union which is more representative than the one they belong to. This is contrary to the Constitution.

Sir, under our Constitution, any piece of legislation in our country that violates the Constitution is void to the extent of that inconsistency. Therefore, hon. Minster, the amendments that you are proposing in this Bill are void by our Constitution. This is because you are limiting the right of our workers to join and be represented by a trade union of their choice. Should this law go through, if it is challenged in a court of law by the trade unions and the court rules against it, this House will be brought into disrepute. It will be said that we are passing laws that are unconstitutional. By our act, we are trying to come up with legislation that is not consistent with the Constitution.

Mr Speaker, I now come to Clause 7 of the Bill. Clause 7 of the Bill amends Section 2 of the principal Act. It deals with the cancellation of the certificate of registration. In the principal Act, the Commissioner of Labour gives a trade union three months notice of his intention to cancel a certificate of registration. He gives it three months notice that he intends to cancel its certificate or deregister the union because it has committed certain transgressions.

Mr Speaker, a union is given three months to ensure that it looks into the issues and makes representations to the commissioner, after which the commissioner may or may not cancel its registration. In the proposed amendment, the notice period is being reduced to one month. What is the hurry?

Mr Speaker, we know that it is very difficult for trade unions to organise and meet their members. In the event that they get a notice that the commissioner intends to deregister their union, the leaders need to organise their members. If you remember, the National Union of Commercial and Industrial Workers, for example, has members throughout Zambia. If they want to meet and correct what the commissioner has drawn their attention to, they need sometime to discuss and take the necessary measures. If you give them one month, what you are actually trying to do is to ensure that you do not give them any time because you are intent on deregistering or cancelling their certificate of registration. That is what you want to do. Why the hurry? Why should the Government find it necessary to act in this manner to deregister a trade union? What is the problem with what has been happening? Why reduce the notice period to one month? This is being done in bad faith.

Mr Speaker, in fact, I will consider this as declaring war on the trade unions.

Interruptions

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, Section 10 deals with disqualification from holding office in the trade unions. It introduces new provisions, for example, an officer of a trade union is barred from holding elective office. A person employed or serving on secondment to the secretariat of a trade union is also barred and a person who ceases to be an employee of the trade union by virtue of retirement is equally barred.

Mr Speaker, when you say an officer of the trade union cannot be elected, what you are, in fact, saying is that such a worker has no right to join a trade union and be elected to office in that trade union. That is ultra vires the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia because a worker anywhere has a right to join an association of his choice, trade union or political party and be elected. Why are we coming up with these laws? Is it because we are targeting certain individuals? We should not do that because when we legislate here, the laws we pass must stand the test of time. This is being done in bad faith and cannot stand. I urge the hon. Minister to, probably, withdraw this Bill and reconsider some of these issues because we do not want to be party to passing unconstitutional pieces of legislation in this House.

Mr Speaker, in fact, this Clause especially, is aimed at certain individuals in the unions. We know that the Ministry of Labour and Social Security has had problems with a certain union. The Commissioner of Labour has intervened to stop certain people from being elected to certain unions and we know at whom these amendments are targeted, but that is not the way to legislate. The House is being used to fight these battles.

Mr Speaker, Section 11 of the Bill deals with giving the commissioner power to appoint an auditor to audit a trade union. Meanwhile, the commissioner is given enough power to suspend the officers of a trade union and ask the members to elect some other people to take over in the meantime. This cannot be done because this is a private organisation and it is the members who should remove these people and not the commissioner. These are arbitrary powers that are being given. We are not a police state and cannot accept these kind of amendments.

Mr Speaker, there are other issues that I would like to look at but as of now, I want to make it very clear that there is something fundamentally wrong with this Bill because it is inconsistent with provisions of the Constitution of Zambia, in particular Article 21.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to make submissions on the Bill which has been brought before this House.

Mr Speaker, first and foremost, when we debate on this Bill, we should look at both sides of the coin. Firstly, is the whole Bill in bad faith? I would like to say that we should support this Bill with amendments.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, we should look at the provisions which are not good and make amendments to them.

Mr Speaker, I would like to remind Hon. Dr Peter Machungwa that, as a country, when we appended our signature to the ILO Conventions, he was Minister and we told him that allowing too many unions in one industry would create problems for us.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Ulula! That is very good.

Dr Machungwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, first of all, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili, who is a former trade unionist himself, is debating untruths. Ratification of the ILO Conventions 87 and 98 were done a long time ago. It was not done by Hon. Dr Machungwa. Is he in order to make false claims here that he told me …

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: … that we should not ratify these conventions when that is not true?

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! The point of order being raised by the hon. Member for Luapula is of an informative nature which the hon. Member for Chipili should take into account. Besides, you will recall the guidance I gave earlier this morning that we should avoid going back in history unnecessarily.

Will the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr D Mwila: Mr Speaker, what I am trying to say is that when we talk about the formation of an alliance with a minority trade union, it is the understanding that matters. When we allow the formation of too many trade unions in an industry, we create problems.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: What the hon. Minister is saying is that a union with a larger membership must work hand in hand one with a smaller membership.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: That is my understanding.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: In short, what the hon. Minister is saying is that when it comes to the bargaining process, a union with a larger membership takes the Chair ….

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: … and the minority trade unions will be part of that bargaining process.

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!
Mr D. Mwila: That is the way I understand it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: What the hon. Minister is saying is that we cannot leave out a union with few members. Therefore, the hon. Minister is trying to reinforce the law. Already, as we speak, this is what is happening. The Mine Workers Union of Zambia, the National Union of Mine Workers and the Allied Workers Union are working hand in hand. They have signed a recognition agreement. They have put in place mechanisms on how they will be working in harmony and this is working very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: That is why, Mr Speaker, I wanted to remind the hon. Member who debated before me that the Government has actually done well in this area …

Hon. Government Members:  hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: … because I have not seen any problem. No one is complaining on that issue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Secondly, Mr Speaker, a concern has been raised with regard to the provision “where someone has ceased to be an employee by virtue of retirement”. People who are supposed to be in a trade union are supposed to be in full-time employment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: That is the way I understand it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Tikugulile moba lero.

Mr D. Mwila: If, Mr Speaker, I retired from the Mine Workers Union of Zambia, whether by early retirement or normal retirement, I retired. It does not mean that in 2011 if I lose the elections I can go back and stand for elections in a trade union. That cannot work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Therefore, I want to emphasise this point. The people who are supposed to be in the leadership of a trade union are supposed to be in full-time employment.

Mr Speaker, I will give an example. If someone wants to be a Minister, first he has to be a Member of Parliament.

Hon. Government Members: Exactly.

Mr D. Mwila: We are saying that someone is supposed to have a constituency.

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Sir, if we encourage people who are not in full-time employment to be in the leadership of trade unions, then we are not going anywhere.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the other issue of concern was the deregistration of a trade union. I agree with Hon. Dr Machungwa on that one. This is because I said I would talk about the good and the bad so that the hon. Minister will look at those issues which he thinks are not good. It is important that the hon. Minister looks at the deregistration of a trade union and maintains the current legislation. Three months is alright. There is no need for the hon. Minister to be in a hurry to deregister a union within a month. That is not good.

Mr Speaker, the other issue is with regard to auditing. Most of the time we concentrate on Government leaders being accountable to the people, but we do not want the Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and trade unions to be accountable to the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr D. Mwila: I am talking from experience, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sichilima: Wekeshapo. Landa.

Mr D. Mwila: My worry is that the Labour Commissioner has been given more powers. Therefore, our fear is that he may abuse this office. If you look at all these clauses, it is, “the Labour Commissioner, the Labour Commissioner.” That is my worry.

Mr Speaker, there are certain clauses on which I am in agreement with the hon. Minister, but they are certain clauses on which I am not in agreement with him. So, I appeal to him to look into those issues.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan) Mr Speaker, first and foremost, I would like to say that I support the Bill with amendments.

 I am sorry, Mr Speaker, to say that I beg to differ with my fellow member of the Patriotic Front on the issue that if people that have been seconded to the union secretariat retire, then they should not stand for leadership in the trade union. The choice of who should lead a trade union must be made by the members and not the Government. People retire at the age of fifty-five, but they are not tired.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, if I am the incumbent president of the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions or Mine Workers Union of Zambia and I retire from Konkola Copper Mines, when elections come, it should not be the duty of the Government, through legislation, to bar me from defending my position as president of that trade union.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: It should be the members of the union, through the ballot, who should decide, based on my performance, whether I should continue or not.

Hon. Opposition: Democracy.

Mr Kambwili: We are aware of what the Government is trying to do. You had a problem with the Federation of Free Trade Unions in Zambia led by Joyce Nonde …

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: … and you are targeting individuals. We know. You have fought this lady left right and centre and now you want Parliament to rubberstamp your fight against her.

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr Kambwili: That is unfortunate. People and members of the union must be left to choose who should lead them. When …

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious procedural point of order.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Is my good friend, the hon. Member of Parliament for Roan, in order to talk about individuals who are not in this august House when you have guided this House consistently and seriously that we should not debate people who are not here to defend themselves? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: The Chair upholds the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Sinazongwe. Do not raise, as part of your debate, issues you think relate to individuals who may not be in a position to defend themselves in the House. What is important is to debate the principles you think are being incorporated in the Bill without naming individuals. The hon. Member for Roan is out of order. May he continue, however.

Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. This House must learn to pass legislation that is going to stand the test of time. Hon. Members must be reminded that a law was passed in this House to make the theft of motor vehicles unbailable. What happened is that immediately some people who were part of passing that law left this House, they found themselves being charged with the same offence and they stayed in prison for some time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, when we are making laws, we must realise that we must make legislation that is going to stand the test of time. We must not make legislation that is targeted at individuals.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The amendment to Section 18 is being done in bad faith and it must be amended or withdrawn.

Secondly, we are not against appointing an auditor to audit a trade union, but against the giving of extra power to the commissioner to recommend the removal, remove or expel someone from the union. The expulsion or removal of a person from a union must be done by the union itself and not the Government. This is tantamount to the Government interfering with the operations of unions.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, this is going to be my shortest debate. I wish to deal with the issue of retirees wanting to belong to trade unions.

 First of all, I would like to ask whether anyone has ever found a bakery owner being recruited as a member of the Law Association of Zambia.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Where has anybody found members of a cattle farmers association employing a fisherman …

Laughter
Major Chizhyuka: … to belong to that association? How, therefore, can we have a retiree belonging to a trade union? To belong to a trade union and aspire for leadership in that union, one must be in active service.  A person must not become a member and aspire for leadership when he or she has retired. Retirees must pack their bags and get out.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: I also wish to emphasise the issue of auditing of these Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs). If we are not too careful, we shall become a nation led by NGOs which are sponsored by foreign capital.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: There is need to deal with these NGOs. If there is need for them to be audited, they should be audited like every other institution.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: There shall not be sacred lambs in this matter. This is why I keep saying that one of these fine days, this Parliament is going to be composed of worms; people who want to come through the back door …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Namwala shall withdraw the word ‘worms’.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, my debate ends there by replacing the word ‘worms’ with ‘snakes’.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That word is just as bad.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You shall withdraw the word ‘snakes’.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, the word ‘snakes’ is withdrawn and I end my debate.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

The Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, I just want to make a few clarifications.

Sir, I got concerned when Hon. Dr Machungwa attempted to mislead this House by saying that this proposed legislation, which is very good, is possibly unconstitutional.

Mr Speaker, I wish to teach the hon. Member the techniques of reading a constitution. This idea of reading the Constitution selectively by choosing words which one likes and which meet their own ends and the situation which they want to portray is uncalled for in this august House.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member should have read sub-article 2 of Article 21, which provides for qualifications, limitations and so forth. The Industrial and Labour Relations Act, which we are amending, fits within Article 21 and we are allowed by that Article to prescribe conditions which trade unions must follow. The Industrial and Labour Relations Act, which is a lengthy piece of legislation, is about regulating trade unions. Within the provisions of the Constitution, particularly sub-article 2 of Article 21, we are allowed to prescribe reasonable conditions in the interest of public defence, safety, order, morality, health and several other factors regarding trade unions.

For example, notwithstanding the provisions concerning freedom of association of a trade union, one cannot form a trade union which has less than the prescribed number of members. It cannot be argued that because of Article 21, a person is entitled to create such a trade union. We are entitled to regulate.

The Committee which looked into this piece of legislation …

Dr Machungwa: Fyafula.

Laughter

 Mr Kunda: … has proposed that we should enact this legislation, perhaps, with a few amendments. However, those amendments should not include an amendment to Section 18, which relates to who can be an officer in a trade union or who can be elected to a trade union.

Mr Speaker, in my interpretation, Section 18, even as it stands now, does not allow for retired officers or employees to be office bearers in trade unions. We are merely reinforcing Section 18 so that those who have retired cannot aspire to hold office in trade unions.

Sir, I just thought I should add those few words. This particular proposed amendment to the Act is not unconstitutional at all and what we are doing is in line with the law.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, first of all, I wish to thank members of your Committee for recommending the Bill to the House and for the job well done. I also wish to thank the various hon. Members of the House who have made very positive contributions and, indeed, have recommended to the House that this Bill be accepted.

Mr Speaker, I just want to reinforce the observations that have already been made on the two items on which we have received negative observations from some of the hon. Members in the House.

Mr Speaker, concerning the consultation process in coming up with the reforms, as I stated in my speech, the process started as far back as 2000. Therefore, there have been several consultations. During the short time that I have been at the ministry, we have had more than four consultations with the social partners involved. All the parties to the Tripartite Labour Consultative Council were represented even at the last technical committee meeting which looked at the recommendations that we have submitted. It is not true that the consultations were not genuine. The only problem is that when an item affects the bearers of the offices, there tends to be resistance to it. However, I think the Government has got the authority to make a decision, otherwise, the Bill will be going forward and backward and we shall never reach a conclusion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Sir, the issue of trade unions being headed by outsiders has been ably debated. You certainly cannot have somebody from outside heading a union. The fear here is that once you open the unions to outsiders, you will end up having even business people coming to stand as union leaders. It has already been adequately explained that unionism is for the workers. Therefore, like any other association, you cannot join a union when you are not a worker. As such, we feel that the recommendations in the Bill are appropriate.

Mr Speaker, there has also been a misinterpretation of the concept of workers choosing their own leaders. Certainly, they should choose their own leaders, but from within the union members who are the workers and not from outside.

Finally, I wish to thank everybody who has contributed to the debate on the Bill. I also wish to assure all of you, hon. Members, that the Bill was made in good faith. The people who think the Bill is targeted at an individual are not aware that there are more retired people in ZCTU than in the Federation of Free Trade Unions in Zambia. Therefore, for one to come up with one name, I think, is also being done in bad faith.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, I finally ask my colleagues to support the Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee on Wednesday, 20th August, 2008.

THIRD READING

The following Bills were read the third time and passed:

The Presidential Emoluments (Amendment) Bill, 2008

The Ministerial and Parliamentary Offices (Emoluments) (Amendment) Bill, 2008

The Constitutional Offices (Emoluments) (Amendment) Bill, 2008

__________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

___________

The House adjourned at 1204 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 19th August, 2008.