Debates- Tuesday, 20th January, 2009

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Tuesday, 20th January, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President, who is attending to other national duties, Hon. G. W. Mpombo, MP, Minister of Defence, has been appointed Acting Leader of Government Business in the House for, today, Tuesday, 20th January, 2009.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House that I have approved a seminar on the Budget Process for all hon. Members of Parliament to be held from Saturday, 24th to Sunday, 25th January, 2009.

The seminar will be held in the auditorium here at Parliament Buildings at 0900 hours each day.

Copies of the seminar programme will be distributed to all hon. Members of Parliament through the pigeonholes.

The seminar will be conducted by the Economics Association of Zambia (EAZ) and is being held in preparation for the consideration of the 2009 Budget by the House.

I, therefore, invite all hon. Members to be present.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in accordance with the provisions of Standing Order No. 150, I have appointed the following Members to constitute the Standing Orders Committee for the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly:

Standing Orders Committee (8)

The Hon. Mr Speaker (Chairperson);

The Hon. G. Kunda, MP, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice;

The Hon. Dr S. Musokotwane, MP, Minister of Finance and National Planning;

The Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, MP, Chief Whip;

Mr H. I. Mwanza, MP;
Mr D. Matongo, MP;

Ms E. M. Imbwae, MP; and

Mrs F. B. Sinyangwe, MP.

Thank you.



The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to outline the business the House will consider this week. Before I do so, allow me to formally welcome all hon. Members of Parliament to the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly and, in particular, to the first meeting of the session.

Sir, I hope that all hon. Members had a productive festive season and have now come back rejuvenated and looking forward to debating, dissecting and analysing the President’s Address which was delivered to the House on Friday, 16th January, 2009.

Further, it is my sincere hope that hon. Members will, later in this meeting, also effectively consider and approve the 2009 National Budget to foster the economic and social development of the nation.

Mr Speaker, let me now give the House some idea of the business it will consider this week. As indicated on the Order Paper, the House, today, will consider Questions and thereafter, focus on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Sir, tomorrow, 21st January, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by Private Members’ Motions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

On Thursday, 22nd January, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 23rd January, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions, if there will be any. The House will then continue with the debate on the Motion of Thanks to His Excellency the President’s Address.

I thank you, Sir.




The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present to this august House and the nation the current status of the cholera situation in the country.

Sir, the current outbreak started on 10th September, 2008 and has affected twelve districts in six provinces. These are:

Province Towns

Northern Mpulungu



Luapula  Chienge


North-Western Solwezi
Central Mumbwa

Southern Livingstone




Lusaka Lusaka.

Mr Speaker, it is worth mentioning that for Northern and Luapula provinces, there have been no new cholera cases reported since 14th December, 2008. Of all the districts that have recorded cholera cases to date, Lusaka District, in Lusaka Province, accounts for 44 per cent of the total cholera cases reported countrywide.

Mr Speaker, allow me, at this point, to give a definition of cholera. Cholera is a diarrhoeal disease caused by a bacteria called Vibrio Cholera.  It is transmitted through eating or drinking contaminated water and/or food. A person suffering from cholera will present with severe diarrhoea (described as rice watery stool) and vomiting which results in severe loss of body fluids. If treatment is not constituted in good time, death may occur.

Sir, allow me to mention that the first district to report a case of cholera was Chienge District in Luapula Province on 10th September, 2008. This was followed by Nchelenge on 26th September, 2008.

In terms of outbreaks in the provinces and districts, the following is the current status:

Luapula Province

The Chienge cholera outbreak has recorded 177 cases, with one death and one brought in dead (BID) from 10th September to 3rd December, 2008.

The Nchelenge cholera outbreak has recorded 286 cases with four deaths from 26th September to 21st November, 2008.

Northern Province

The Mpulungu cholera outbreak has recorded 547 cases, with one death and five BIDs from 30th September to 7th December, 2008.

The Mbala cholera outbreak has recorded twenty-eight cases with two deaths from 19th October to 28th November, 2008.

The Kaputa cholera outbreak has recorded twenty cases from 6th November, 2008 to 27th November, 2008.

North-Western Province

Solwezi District recorded one cholera case on 14th December, 2008. As of yesterday, 19th January, 2009, the district had two cases on treatment in Kizengezenge area. There were also two BID cases reported from the same house.

Lusaka Province

The Lusaka cholera outbreak started on 3rd October, 2008, and 1,070 cases have been recorded with fourteen deaths and eighteen BIDs as at 19th January, 2009. A total of 145 patients were under treatment as of yesterday.

Southern Province

The Siavonga cholera outbreak started on 2nd December, 2008, and has recorded sixty-two cases with one BID so far. Three patients were under treatment as of 19th January, 2009.

The Mazabuka cholera outbreak started on 6th December, 2008 and has recorded 120 cases with one death and one BID. This district had one patient under treatment as at 19th January, 2009.

The Livingstone cholera outbreak started on 6th December, 2008, and had recorded twenty-one cases with two deaths and one BID as at 19th January, 2009.

The Sinazongwe cholera outbreak started on 5th January, 2009, and has recorded thirty-nine cases with one BID. Eighteen patients were under treatment as at 19th January, 2009.

Central Province

The Mumbwa cholera outbreak started on 12th December, 2008, and has recorded sixty-two cases with four deaths and one BID. The district had no patient under treatment as at 19th January, 2009.

The country has, therefore, recorded 2,437 cholera cases so far. We have lost twenty-nine patients in our health facilities while twenty-eight cases were BIDs. In terms of national totals, we had 169 patients under treatment in the cholera treatment centres countrywide as of 19th January, 2009.

Mr Speaker, the control and prevention of cholera depends largely on the provision of adequate sanitary facilities and clean and safe water for the population. The fact that Lusaka District continues to record cholera cases, year in and year out, is an indication that there is need to invest in water supply for the public and ultimately address the prevailing poor sanitary conditions.

Sir, may I remind the House and, indeed, the general public that a germ called Vibrio Cholera causes cholera. As much as the Ministry of Health  has continued to make medical and non-medical supplies as well as human resource to mitigate the spread of cholera available, the real causes of cholera hinge on the following:

(a) non-observance of personal hygiene;

(b) non-availability of adequate clean and safe water;

(c) poor sanitary conditions;

(d) non-availability of effective and efficient solid waste management; and

(e) non-enforcement of the Public Health Act in relation to inspections of 
markets, restaurants and drinking places.

Sir, from the above factors that contribute to cholera, it can be deduced that the prevention and control of cholera requires a multi-sectoral and multi-disciplinary response and strong community partnership and participation.

Mr Speaker, I will not relent in continuously reminding the public to take all necessary precautions to stop the spread of the disease as some of the actions needed are simple and cost-effective. There is need for the public to adopt safer behaviour with regard to personal hygiene by:

(a) cleaning their homes and surroundings;

(b) avoiding the indiscriminate throwing of rubbish;

(c) avoiding hand shakes and large gatherings;

(d) washing hands before and after eating food;

(e) washing fruits with clean and safe water before eating them;

(f) proper disposal of excreta;

(g) eating properly cooked food while it is still hot;

(h) boiling drinking water; and

(i) adding domestic chlorine to drinking water.

Sir, all these measures can be carried out by the majority of the population with very little financial cost. Forgetting to put in place any of the above measures by any individual will not only be costly to the individual and their family, but also the nation at large. Huge amounts of resources will have to be redirected from much-needed national development issues to treating persons suffering from cholera. A disease like cholera is cheap to prevent even at household level. I, therefore, urge everyone to observe these basic personal hygiene practices.

Sir, the ministry has put the following measures in place:

(a) a National Epidemic Preparedness, Prevention, Control and Management Committee that meets every week to provide a national response to the control of outbreaks;

(b) all health institutions in the country have been put on alert and requested to reinforce preventive measures and reactivate district epidemic preparedness committee meetings;

(c) a series of awareness/prevention programmes are currently running on both national radio and television, including community radio stations;

(d) community awareness/prevention campaigns using public address systems targeting markets and drinking places;

(e) provision of free domestic chlorine to affected areas;

(f) liming of pit-latrines in the affected areas;

(a) cholera treatment centres have been opened in affected areas;

(b) all necessary logistics, drugs and medical supplies have been mobilised for affected districts;

(c) staff has been mobilised to attend to patients;

(d) all health inspectors and environmental health staff have been mobilised to strengthen the inspection of eating and drinking places such as bars, taverns, restaurants, general dealer shops and schools. Places that do not meet public health standards are being issued with notices of closure immediately;

(e) apart from environmental staff conducting contact tracing, community based health workers have been mobilised to ensure that all patients and contacts are traced and their homes thoroughly disinfected;

(f) considering that our neighbouring country, Zimbabwe, is fighting the problem of cholera, the Ministry of Health has also put in place mechanisms to prevent further spread across the borders as well as provide humanitarian assistance as part of the Southern African Development Community (SADC) protocol. An assessment team comprising the public health director, clinicians, logisticians and laboratory personnel was dispatched to Harare and the border towns with Zambia to conduct a rapid assessment of the extent of the problem and establish what needs to be done; and

(g) the National Epidemic Planning, Prevention and Control Committee agreed with the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU), in the Office of the Vice-President, to send medical supplies and food to support the health facilities and treatment of patients at the border districts in Zambia and Zimbabwe.

Mr Speaker, allow me to mention that every individual has the power to prevent cholera. With the combined efforts from line ministries like the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, the Ministry of Education, the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services and all other the stakeholders, working in partnership with the Ministry of Health, we can stop the outbreak of cholera in our country.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, we need to invest in long term measures which include, ensuring that the community has access to clean and safe water supply, improving the prevailing unsanitary conditions and assuring food safety.

Mr Speaker, you may be aware that these measures are beyond the mandate of the Ministry of Health alone and should not be left to the Government alone. I, therefore, urge the hon. Members of Parliament, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Simbao: …through you, Sir, to provide leadership and play their role in the prevention and control of cholera in their respective constituencies.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the biggest weapon we can use to defeat cholera is information. This can only be achieved if all of us participate.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the thirteen measures outlined by the hon. Minister to mitigate the impact of cholera and reduce the number of cases are, indeed, very welcome.

Sir, in his statement, he mentioned that the fundamental cause of cholera is drinking contaminated water. However, in the measures he outlined, there is no mention of water. May I ask why the hon. Minister …

Mr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, my point of order is quite important.


Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, is this Government in order to continue ruling this country when it has completely failed to create a clean environment and provide clean water in order to prevent cholera …


Mr Malama: …which has brought shame to the Zambian people? We are living as though we are at war and the Government and the Opposition are in conflict.

Mr Speaker, year in and year out, we talk about cholera.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Is this Government really fit to continue ruling the innocent people of Zambia? Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Mfuwe is raising a point of order on the very subject we are discussing.


Mr Speaker: The Chair fails to understand why the hon. Member could curtail the hon. Member for Kabwata, who was raising a supplementary question on the subject. If the House is not interested in this matter, we can move to the next item on the agenda.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I am much obliged.

Mr Speaker, I was asking why the hon. Minister, in his ministerial statement, did not make mention of any measure that the Government is undertaking to ensure that the people have clean and safe drinking water at their disposal.

Mr Speaker, with regard to Lusaka, what is the Government doing to ensure that it liquidates the K20.3 billion owed to the company responsible for providing clean and safe drinking water to the population of Lusaka in order to avoid cholera? Why is he not telling us what they are doing about that instead of asking hon. Members of Parliament to provide leadership in the absence of clean and safe drinking water, the provision of which is supposed to be the responsibility of the Government?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, it is sad that this kind of question is coming from Hon. Lubinda. As the hon. Minister of Health, I have been very sympathetic to settlements without piped water. I took special interest in a small settlement called Mapoloto. However, Hon. Lubinda came to my office and basically argued against what I wanted to do.


Mr V. Mwale: Waona.

Mr Simbao: Sir, I am very surprised because I said that whether people were in an area legally or not, there were certain amenities that they were supposed to be provided with. The hon. Member, however, cautioned us to be careful because the Auditor-General may ask where we got the money to provide clean water for the people.


Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, when we have problems of this nature, it becomes very difficult. By now, the people of Mapoloto would have had piped water. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, who is here, found money to start that project. However, following that caution, he has been hesitant to apply the money. Therefore, I am very surprised that Hon. Lubinda can ask me this kind of question.

Mr Speaker, as regards the K20.3 billion he mentioned, I must say that I am not aware of that figure.

Mr Lubinda: Minister made simple.

Mr Simbao: However, as the Ministry of Health, we have about K1.5 billion that we have to pay towards these debts, which we have made provision for in the Budget.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, all the measures that the hon. Minister of Health has indicated to try to eradicate cholera have been stipulated and promulgated in the past without exception. Has this Government failed to reduce cholera in this country given that we are going into the forty-fifth year of our independence?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the problem of cholera is one of hygiene. As everyone knows, this disease is passed through the oral intake of faecal matter. At the moment, we have not delivered water and proper sanitation facilities to many settlements. This is because most of them have been said to be illegal. Therefore, most of the previous Governments failed to move into them. One such area is Kanyama, which is so big now. Right now, Old Kanyama is the worst affected amongst these areas. The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has said that he is going to try to deliver water and proper sanitary facilities to the people irrespective of where they are. This is even if they are going to be moved at a later stage. Hopefully, this is going to assist us combat this problem.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, in the Ministerial Statement given by the hon. Minister of Health, he clearly stated that cholera reoccurs because of lack of good sanitation and water. I would like to find out from him about Munali Constituency in particular because we have some illegal settlements there. A good example is Mtendere East which lacks proper sanitation facilities and water. Is the Ministry of Health working with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing to ensure that the settlement is legalised so that the people that live there can have water?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, it has come to our attention, in the study of the spread of this disease, that the area that is most affected is the western part of Lusaka. Therefore, we are conducting a study to find out how the people in the eastern part of Lusaka are able to keep this disease at bay. Is it a question of hygiene so that it is less widespread in the eastern part of Lusaka because the people in that area find the question of hygiene very important? Why is it that we do not have these cases on the eastern side of Lusaka?

Mr Speaker, concerning the hon. Member’s question, I have said that Hon. Tetamashimba is looking at how quickly he can provide piped water to almost all settlements whether legal or illegal.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, K16.2 billion was budgeted for the control of flooding in the western part of Lusaka and flooding is the major cause of faecal contamination in water. However, only K5.7 billion has been released through the DMMU. A further K2.4 billion has just been released. K8.1 billion remains and K2 billion has been sent to Zimbabwe to help with their cholera problem. Can the hon. Minister, please, explain to us his Government’s priorities.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, first of all, K2 billion was not sent to Zimbabwe.

 Hon. P F Members: Aah!

Mr Simbao: You wanted an answer and I am giving it.


Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, K2 billion was not sent to Zimbabwe. Medicines and other supplies worth K600 million were sent to that country.


Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I have the list with me here. Everything, including telephone calls, amounts to about K600 million. Not all this came from the money per se because some items like blankets were donated. However, everything amounted to K600 million. Therefore, there was misinformation. We are trying to correct this misinformation by stating that K2 billion was not sent to Zimbabwe.

Sir, this Government’s priority is to ensure that its citizens are safe and healthy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We are not happy to lose any lives. If anything, that makes us very sad. Therefore, we try our best to prevent the loss of life not just in Lusaka, but everywhere.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, cholera is a preventable disease. In fact, in 1991, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) campaigned on the basis of its ability to fight cholera.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Milupi: Eighteen years later, we still have sporadic outbreaks of cholera. Could the hon. Minister of Health explain, bearing in mind that they seem to understand what measures need to be taken to eradicate cholera, when these measures shall be put in place and when they expect this country to be cholera free.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the question of cholera is a question of hygiene. However, cholera can spread easily. Right now, the epidemic has affected twenty-nine countries. Almost all our neighbours from here to South Africa are grappling with this problem. There are some countries where this problem has become endemic.

Sir, as for Zambia, there is a possibility that we can end this problem. There have been some years where it has been reduced to levels where it is not even heard about.

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, there have been some years when the situation has been very bad. For example, 1989, 1999 and 2004. However, we can eradicate this disease.

Sir, people must, firstly, understand that it is a question of hygiene. Secondly, where possible, like Hon. Tetamashimba would like to do, we should allow piped water to be provided wherever it is required. We should not come up with any reason to prevent this. When we eventually remove people from an area, we can remove the pipes. For now, let us take into consideration the lives of the people before anything else.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government provides services to members of the public out of sympathy or because it has an obligation to do so.

Furthermore, could the hon. Minister confirm whether the current situation pertaining to the cholera outbreak in Zambia is as a result of the despicable failure of the MMD Government to provide leadership and hygienic conditions in Zambia. As a result, this Government has embarrassed the people of Zambia because cholera is something that is not appreciated by anybody. It is a shame to this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members should ask questions and avoid editorialising.


Mr Speaker: That can come in when you debate certain Motions which may come today.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, it is a pleasure to serve the people of Zambia. The hon. Member of Parliament must know that the people of Zambia gave this Government the mandate to serve them.

However, at times, we face unnecessary opposition even when people know that the issue is a matter of life and death. All of us must take up this issue and help disseminate the message that hygiene is the biggest weapon against cholera. This does not end at the Government alone. If the hon. Member thinks that the Government has failed, I am very sorry to say that he has also failed because he was supposed to have made that very clear to his people. He is the one who holds meetings with them. He is supposed to start with the issue of hygiene and end with it so that the people know that every time they do certain things, they are likely to catch cholera.

Therefore, it is the Government’s mandate to serve the people of Zambia. I do not see any failure. I think it is a problem we can defeat in a few years to come. However, if we keep on talking like this, it will be there for another twenty years. If we talk about targeting one thing, we can defeat it in a very short time.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, in view of the shortage of human resource, how is the ministry coping with the work force required in the cholera centres?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, admittedly, we have a big shortage of human resource. Fortunately, the armed forces decided to combine forces and gave us at least thirty-two extra personnel, due to the seriousness of the problem. These have been taken to Chawama and Matero treatment centres. We had a very big problem with human resource until the armed forces came forward and gave us thirty-two personnel.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing to stop water utility companies from disconnecting water in secondary and primary schools because this is posing a risk to the lives of the children? It is the Government’s responsibility to pay water bills.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I know that all the ministries have budgeted for utilities in this year’s Budget and I am sure the Ministry of Education has done the same. We were all asked to do that. I do not know how big the debt for the Ministry of Education is, but I know that they have tried to reduce or pay it all.

However, I must say that disconnecting water from schools is not the ideal thing to do because it affects children. We have to find a way of paying the water utility companies so that we prevent them from doing this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear.

Mr Simbao: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chella (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, prevention is better than cure. The hon. Minister has just said that information is key if we are to combat cholera. Several times, we have come here and reported …

Mr Speaker: Order! Ask your question. I will now insist on questions.

Mr Chella: In Wusakile there are no toilets.


Mr Speaker: Ask your question!


Mr Chella: Other than going to Zimbabwe, when is the hon. Minister going to provide toilets in Wusakile in order to stop cholera so that its 13,000 residents do not perish?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Lubinda: Ukamba Mapoloto. Kamba pali Wusakile!

Mr Speaker: Order!


Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, this Government is aware of some places where this problem exists and Mapoloto is one of them.


Mr Simbao: If Wusakile is another one, the hon. Minister will take time to go and assess the problem there.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, what is the hon. Minister’s ministry doing to ensure that people who cross borders like Mokambo are screened for the disease?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, at the moment, only the area bordering Zimbabwe has enough health control in place. The other places do not have that kind of health control. However, it is very easy to notice someone who is sick.


Mr Simbao: It is very difficult for one to hide. Therefore, if there will be anyone coming from whatever place crossing Mokambo, the clinics and health centres are there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Our health personnel are aware of this and have been told to be on the alert.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, what is the hon. Minister doing about the markets? I believe that most infections come from markets because we do not have appropriate markets to sell our food. If the problem was only caused by water, the people in the villages would have died. Are you doing anything about the markets and street vendors?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, our area of involvement starts with the patient. We are not in charge of markets and streets, but come in when patients come to our health centres. While I can say that the Government is studying that situation, I cannot say that, as a ministry, we are responsible for it.

I would like to mention something here which, maybe, Hon. Dr Scott missed. I said that all the districts and the entire country are on alert with regard to this disease. I started by saying that six provinces are affected and six provinces out of nine is two-thirds of Zambia. I do not know if he missed that statement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, apart from the screening at border posts which the hon. Minister referred to as a means of mitigating against the spread of the disease across the borders, I would like to find out, more especially for Livingstone which borders Zimbabwe, what other measures have been taken to ensure that the endemic situation in Zimbabwe does not overflow into Zambia.

 Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the situation in Livingstone is very interesting in that it is the only border post where the disease is on the Zambian side, but not on the Zimbabwean side. So far, there has been no case reported at the treatment centre in Zimbabwe, but twenty-one cases have been reported on our side. Therefore, we have taken all the required measures to control the problem in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, cholera has been in Zambia for a long time. May I find out from the hon. Minister why the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Governors, the Chiluba District Administrators and now the Patriotic Front (PF) led councils have failed lamentably to find a preventative and …


Mr Chimbaka: …developmental solution to ….

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: … cholera in Zambia.


Mr Speaker: Order! I want to hear the question. What is the question?

Mr Lubinda: There is no question.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, my question is: cholera has been in Zambia since 1998. There were district governors in the UNIP era, the Chiluba Administration had district commissioners and now we have PF led councillors. Why have we failed to come up with a preventative …


Mr Chimbaka: … solution to cholera?


Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!


Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, we need to be factual. As hon. Members, we need to help because this failure is not by the Government, but by us who have the opportunity to meet all the communities. We need to meet with the communities and talk to the people in the constituencies. If anything bad is happening, it is because we are failing to disseminate proper information. The Ministry of Local Government and Housing is doing its best.  It has bought vans and employed people to assist in the disposal of garbage and unblocking of drainages. However, in most places, the concerned hon. Members of Parliament and councillors have neglected their responsibility. That is why you see all these problems. We must acknowledge responsibility.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, when you are the hon. Member of Parliament for an area, you must acknowledge responsibility. For instance, if there is cholera in your area, you must be the first to be ashamed because you should have gone to your community and disseminated proper information.

Mr Lubinda: Solwezi!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, therefore, the hon. Member’s question relates to everyone in here.

Hon. PF Members: Solwezi!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to urge all hon. Members with areas in their constituencies where there is cholera to go there and hold meetings everyday and educate the people.

Mr Lubinda: Solwezi!

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, in Lusaka, we have a big problem. Lusaka is in your hands, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: … as councillors, and I urge you to help us.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, since the provision of clean water is critical in the prevention …


Mr V. Mwale: of cholera, …

Mr Speaker: Order! I am going to curtail further debate on this matter if the House does not behave.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, since the provision of clean water is critical in the prevention of cholera, is the Government considering increasing funding for water and sanitation in the Budget this year?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the issue of improving water supply and sanitation has been discussed and I think the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing took that into account when preparing the budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, the sewerage system we have in the country was set up in the colonial era and has been overwhelmed by the growth of the population in the country. You find that …

Mr Speaker: Order! You are debating. What is your question?

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, my question is: what is the Government doing to invest in sewer development in this country so that we reduce on the number of pit latrines?

Mr Simbao:  Sir, the hon. Member may wish to note that most big towns are being re-planned right now. Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe are being re-planned at the moment with a view to improving all their facilities in about ten years time. This is being done with the assistance of the Japanese who are working with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Therefore, most of these facilities will be improved to take care of the expected population by 2050.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what is happening …

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Chongo: Akulandeni fye.

Mr Chanda: … to the Keep Zambia Clean Campaign.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, The Keep Zambia Clean Campaign is very much alive. The hon. Member of Parliament may wish to note that this year, in particular, all of us will be deeply involved so that we can encourage our constituencies to maintain cleanliness throughout the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Masiye (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister rightly pointed out that cholera is caused by poor sanitation. Most site and service areas and upgraded shanty compounds have pit latrines. To enhance hygiene and sanitation conditions in these areas, does the Government have any plans of installing a sewer system?

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, are the hon. Members of Parliament sitting behind me in order to insult me for expressing my view on the Motion?

Mrs Phiri: Resign.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Bahati is raising a point of order which is private in one way or another. The Chair is unaware of which hon. Members behind him are insulting him for expressing an opinion in the House.

Mr Kambwili: Kuya bebele.

Mr Speaker: However, if the hon. Member for Bahati knows who these hon. Members are, he knows what to do. You write a letter of complaint to the Chairperson of the Committee that deals with Members’ privileges. You are free to do so since you know them. The Chair does not know who these people are.

 The hon. Member for Mufulira was raising a follow-up question. May you continue, please.

Ms Masiye: Mr Speaker, to enhance hygiene and sanitation conditions in site and service areas as well as shanty compounds, does the Government have any plans to install sewer systems in these areas? Further, does the Government have any plans to put in place sewer systems in site and service areas before allocating plots?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing is thinking of building modern settlements in which roads and water will be made available before people move to the settlements. At that time, the ministry will ensure that anyone who builds a house has a flushable toilet because this is a requirement for new settlements. For old settlements, I cannot be in a position to answer how the hon. Minister is going to achieve that, right now.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-Tezhi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister of Health indicated to this House that we helped Zimbabwe with some monies. Can he also consider compensating the families of those who died in Zambia since the number of people who died in Zambia are fewer than those who died in Zimbabwe.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, we are trying to assist the living and not the dead. I do not understand how this comes in.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order!

 The House may wish to know that hon. Minister of Health volunteered to give this Ministerial Statement. Altogether, I counted eighteen questions that arose from the Ministerial Statement. It does appear as if the Executive has begun well. I am also aware that there are a few more Ministerial Statements in the pipeline which the Executive has volunteered to deliver before this House. I believe this is a good beginning, in terms of accountability …

Hon. Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: …  by the Executive to this House, and I wish to encourage it.




1. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) how many non-runner GRZ vehicles were parked at Government ministries and departments as of 31st December, 2008; and

(b) why the Government took long to dispose of or repair the vehicles at (a) above.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, as at 31st December 2008, there were 374 non-runner Government of the Republic of Zambia (GRZ) motor vehicles parked at various Government ministries and departments.

Mr Speaker, it takes long to dispose of the vehicles because there is a laid down procedure that is followed which, to enhance transparency and promote proper accountability in the disposing of valuable GRZ assets, involves a number of stakeholders. When a vehicle becomes uneconomical to operate, the user ministry or department contacts the Ministry of Works and Supply to preliminarily inspect the vehicle and recommend it for boarding to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning then constitutes a board of survey which further examines the asset and comes up with a minimum value at which it can be sold. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning then appoints an auctioneer who conducts the auction to Government employees. Any asset not sold can then be offered to members of the public. The money realised from the sale or auction is remitted to the Treasury.

Mr Speaker, the delays in repairing non-runner vehicles can be attributed to the lack of adequate funding to meet the high cost of repair and maintenance of GRZ motor vehicles. The lack of planning for the maintenance of GRZ motor vehicles by most user ministries and departments also causes delays in vehicle maintenance and repair.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell the nation which is economical, to have 374 non-runner vehicles or to sell them and buy fifty new ones for the Government.

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, Zambia is a big place and the vehicles are scattered all over the country and to arrive at a decision to dispose of them takes a bit of time. However, since these are parked, it means, they have come to the end of their useful life. There is no guarantee that if you sell 374 of them, you can buy fifty new ones. I think that is being too ambitious. However, everything possible is being done to ensure that these wrecks are disposed of.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I believe all GRZ vehicles use Government fuel. I would like to find out if GRZ vehicles have been allowed to be on wedding lineups.  Last week, a GRZ vehicle decorated with ribbons was seen on a wedding lineup. Have things changed?


Mr Speaker: That question seems irrelevant to question (1), but can the hon. Minister supply a bonus answer?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, we are not permitted to do that. However, human beings, being what they are, they like to take chances.  If a Government officer is getting married and a Government vehicle is the only one available, they may use it, but that is against the regulations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the reason it takes long to sell unused Government vehicles is not clear. We wonder why the Government never takes time to sell equipment that has broken down along the road as evidenced by two graders lying on the road between Sesheke and Senanga, which have been completely forgotten about. Why does the Government not sell such important equipment?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, there is a cost associated with the assessment of the disposal of these vehicles. Government resources are employed prudently for the purpose of development and the disposal of a wreck cannot be a priority.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the Government is doing to reduce bureaucracy so that these vehicles are sold in good time because the Ministry of Works and Supply is decentralised up to district level.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we have a procedure and, in the name of transparency, everything is done to ensure that a vehicle is disposed of when its life has come to end and that the disposal is done in a manner that protects integrity. To be in a hurry to dispose of one vehicle is not right. What is important is that, first of all, we must find resources to enable the officers go round and make assessments. Once a decision has been made, the unused vehicles are disposed of. Therefore, as I have said, the resources of the State are employed for development and not the disposal of wrecks.

I thank you, Sir.


2. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when the newly constructed clinic at Hoya in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency would be operational; and

(b) when the clinic newly constructed by the Church of Central Africa Presbyterian at Egichikeni in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency would receive support from the Government in terms of drugs and health personnel.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the health post at Hoya has just been completed at a total cost of K250 million and will be handed over to Lundazi District Management Team in the next three weeks.
The Ministry of Health will be procuring equipment and furniture centrally for Hoya Health Post. The centre is likely to be operational before the end of the second quarter of this year. The district will mobilise basic equipment from within the province while waiting for the bigger purchase.

Sir, the construction of the health post was first funded by the Church of Central Africa Presbyterian (CCAP) and the works were not completed due to inadequate funds.

The Ministry of Health has provided K41,000,000 and the project is almost complete. There will be need to provide furniture and equipment to the health post once it is completed. Other logistics in terms of drugs and health personnel will be provided to the centre thereafter. It is hoped that the health post will be operational by the second quarter of this year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


3. Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources:

(a) how many people had been killed by crocodiles from 1978 to-date in the following areas in Itezhi-tezhi District:

(i) Itezhi-tezhi;

(ii) Kafue River Upper Stream; and

(iii) Kafue River Lower Stream; and

(b) whether the ministry would conduct a survey in order to determine the population of crocodiles in the areas above and, if so, when.

The Deputy Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Mr Speaker, it has been difficult for the ministry to obtain information on the number of people killed by crocodiles in the places mentioned above prior to the year 2000. However, we have information from 2000 to 2008 which is as follows:

Year Itezhi-tezhi Kafue River Kafue River Total
 Dam Upper Stream Lower Stream

2000 2 0 3 5 

Major Chizhyuka: Speak louder.

Mr Mwangala: In 2001, Itezhi-tezhi …

Mr Speaker: Order! Can you speak through the microphone.

Mr Mwangala: Hello (holding the microphone).


Mr Mwangala: Mr Speaker, the statistics continue as follows:

Year Itezhi-tezhi Kafue River Kafue River Total
 Dam Upper Stream Lower Stream

2001 3 0 4 7

2002 0 1 1 2

2003 1 0 3 4

2004 1 0 1 2

2005 1 0 4 5

2006 2 0 0 2

2007 2 0 3 5

2008 1 0 2 3

Total 13 1 21 35

Mr Speaker, my ministry, through the Zambia Wild Authority (ZAWA), conducted a survey on crocodiles in the major rivers and lakes in the country in 2007. It was estimated that the Kafue River system had 1526 crocodiles. It is hoped that surveys will be conducted every three to four years to determine the distribution and trend of the crocodile population. It is important to note that Itezhi-tezhi Dam was not covered in that survey.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, the number of people killed by these less ecologically important animals is alarming. When is the Government going to come to this august House with a Bill that will ensure that people killed by these reptiles and other wild animals that damage their crops are compensated?

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Speaker, I would like to correct the impression that these animals are useless because they are not. Apart from the ecological value, crocodiles have economic value. There are a number of farms earning the much-needed revenue for this country by exporting crocodile meat and skin.

However, there is need for us to educate our people on how to deal with these natural resources. For instance, many of our people need to be educated that if they detect that there are crocodiles in an area where, for instance, they go to draw water, they must immediately report the matter. In addition, they should avoid drawing water from such areas. However, the cardinal point is that these animals bring value to the nation.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, given that I posses some local knowledge of the area, is there an attempt by this Government to crop the crocodiles in that area to reduce the number of people and cattle that die from crocodile attacks or do they intend to wait until an hon. Minister has his leg bitten off when touring the area?

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, to the contrary, the population of crocodiles in the Kafue River system is very low. In fact, we have high densities in areas that are protected; the game management areas and national parks where there are fifteen to twenty-eight crocodiles per river kilometre. For open areas, there are one to two crocodiles per river kilometre. In fact, the Government intends to educate the communities on the value of crocodiles as well as the need to avoid interacting with them to dangerous levels. We will not wait until an hon. Minister has his/her leg bitten off by a crocodile. We are doing everything possible to ensure that we engage the communities and educate them on how to live with the crocodiles better.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has talked about the value of crocodiles. However, has she taken steps, through ZAWA, to organise the people so that they can make use of this resource in their areas and ensure that they can get water without risking their lives? Water is life and there is need for them to have water to drink. Therefore, sometimes they have no choice but to go to the river. What measures are being taken to ensure that the safety of the people is assured and that people make capital, as it were, from this natural resource?

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, it is the intention of the Government, through this ministry, to work with other stakeholders to ensure that where women, for instance, have no other source of water, we provide safe water sources to prevent them from going to the river to draw water.

In terms of ensuring that the local community benefits from crocodiles, we are trying to engage the local communities in the harvesting of eggs and also ensure that as we develop the crocodile farms, local communities can participate. Apart from that, I am aware that certain parts of this country view crocodiles as a delicacy. Therefore, there is value.
I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, thirty-five people being killed by crocodiles in the Kafue River alone is too high a figure. I bet the numbers are even higher in areas like the Bangweulu Swamps. If our people are caught killing these beasts, they may be imprisoned or fined, but if these beasts kill our people, you are talking of …

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member, you are debating. What is your question?

Dr Machungwa: What is your response to the question by the hon. Member of Parliament for Itezhi-tezhi who asked whether the Government was prepared to bring a Bill that would ensure that people who are maimed or killed by these beasts are compensated because if they kill these beasts, they are jailed or might be fined? Can we do something …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, crocodiles and, indeed, other natural resources belong to the people of Zambia. The answer lies in hon. Members of Parliament who live in areas with this problem educating our people and working with the Government to ensure that lives are not lost.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government is in a position to provide boreholes or piped water to the communities which will report the presence of these beasts in the rivers they draw water from.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, whenever possible, the Government would like to provide safe drinking water for its people. Where there is a problem such as the one we are talking about today, I encourage hon. Members of Parliament to get ZAWA officers to discuss the matter with the communities so that they can find a lasting solution.

Thank you, Sir.


4. Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether the Government had any plans of reopening the Tshinsenda Border Post in Chililabombwe Parliamentary Constituency in order to decongest the Kasumbalesa Border Post.
The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Tshinsenda Border Post was closed in 1979 on account of cross-border crimes such as car thefts that were prevalent at the time. In order to avoid illegal migration across the border control and also to take care of the existing infrastructure, the Department of Immigration currently has one officer stationed at the control.

The Tshinsenda Border Post has potential to decongest Kasumbalesa Border Post. Furthermore, the cross-border crimes experienced earlier have reduced considerably owing to strengthened crime prevention measures and closer co-operation between the two countries.

Consequently, the Ministry of Home Affairs is committed to reopening the border as and when resources are available. In order to make the border post operational, the Ministry of Home Affairs requires resources to rehabilitate institutional houses, modernise the office block, install power and improve the water reticulation system. Additional staff will have to be recruited. Furthermore, the Ministry of Works and Supply will also have to work on the road and rehabilitate the bridge. Preliminary indications on the Congolese side are that they are ready to open up the border control.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, at the moment, trucks at Kasumbalesa Border Post queue for as far as 5 kilometres. Since you have mentioned that you are going to open the border when funds are available, what are you going to do in the meantime to lessen the pressure Chililabombwe is currently experiencing?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I can confirm that the congestion at the Kasumbalesa Border Post is acute. I visited the area with my colleague, the hon. Minister of Defence last week, in order to appreciate the state in which that border post was. I think the long term solution really is to reopen Tshinsenda Border Post and we are committed to that programme. We will do an assessment of what is required to rehabilitate the houses which are solid. They just need a coat of paint and minor works. After that, we will have new personnel to run the post and that can be done towards the end of this year and hopefully in 2010, we can reopen the border.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Speaker, I have heard from the hon. Minister who visited Tshinsenda Border Post in Chililabombwe. What is he doing to make sure that Milyashi Border Post, which he did not visit, is secured? Those who are brave pass through it with trucks without paying anything because there is no one to man it.

Mr Speaker: I shall allow that question which is an exception.

Dr Mwansa: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Sir, I am grateful for that piece of information. We will follow up the matter because we are not aware of it.

I thank you, Sir.


5. Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) what the provisions of the concession between the Zambia Railways Limited and the Railway Systems of Zambia Limited were in terms of each party meeting its contractual obligations;

(b) whether there had been any default on the contract by either party from inception to date and, if so, what the concession provided for redress of the default; and

(c) what measures the Government had taken to ensure that the parties at (a) above abided by the provisions of the concession.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, in March 2000, the Government of the Republic of Zambia decided to concession the freight and passenger services of Zambia Railways Limited (ZR) to the private sector with a view to improving the performance of the railway operations and infrastructure. On 3rd December, 2003, GRZ and the ZR entered into a concession agreement with Railway System of Zambia (RSZ), the concessionaire, which took over the operations of the railway and has since been in operation. The main undertakings of the concessionaire in the concession agreement include the following:

(a) the concessionaire is given exclusive operating rights on the ZR network;

(b) a non-refundable entry fee of US$750,000 was paid by the concessionaire prior to commencement;

(c) conducts the railway passenger operations;

(d) operation of a specific number of trains per week;

(e) a valuable concession fee paid at 5 per cent of the railway income;

(f) a fixed fee which ranges from US$0 to US$200 million depending on the change or circumstances over the twenty year period;

Mr Speaker: Order! The House must pay attention.

May the hon. Minister continue, please.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, thank you.

(g) upgrading and carrying out maintenance at its own cost on the passenger asset  from the commencement date until the expiry date; and

(h) RSZ may sub-contract any of its rights as it considers appropriate.

The main undertakings of the Government of the Republic of Zambia through ZR in the concession agreement include the following:

(a) GRZ and ZR granted to RSZ, subject to the issue of the railway permit, the right to conduct railway passenger operations on the railway on an exclusive basis;

(b) GRZ subsidy of the services during the seven year period and this subsidy is set off against a fixed fee under the freight agreement; and

(c) an annual passenger subsidy paid by the Government that ranges between US$700,000 to US$1,309,000 in the seven year period.
As regards the second part of the question, the following have been identified as the defaults from inception to date:

(a) Defaults by Railway Systems of Zambia

(i) The Passenger Train Services

Passenger train services are subsidised by the Government at the rate of US$700,000 to US$1,300,000 per annum, during the concession period. This subsidy is not pro rata to the service level although RSZ can be in default if they do not run a single trip in ninety consecutive days without notice. RSZ is supposed to run seven round trips per week, as stated in the passenger agreement, but is currently running only three per week. This could be considered a default on the part of the concessionaire.

(ii) Security of Assets and Scrap Metal

There is an apparent lack of security for assets and scrap materials resulting in:

1. rails and sleepers being stolen from inactive lines and sidings on the railway network.

2. wheels, boogies and other wagon parts being stolen from the scrap and derailed on the railway network.

3. the number of wagons being cut and stolen.

(b) Default by Zambia Railways Limited

There are no notable defaults that can be attributed to ZR. However, RSZ has complained about security, the payment of fuel levy and the definition of maintenance, vis à vis additional investments. These issues are not contained in the two concessional agreements.

(c) Measures provided for in the Concession Agreement to redress the fault

The concession agreement provides that in the event of default, the following remedial measures will be taken:

(i) Termination of the Contract

termination will be by GRZ and/or ZR for RSZ event of default and termination by RSZ for GRZ and/or ZR event of default; and

(ii) settlement of disputes is through negotiation and mediation, arbitration, alternative fora and continuing compliance with obligations.

Mr Speaker, in the last part of his question, the hon. Member wanted to know what the Government was doing in order to ensure that parties abide by the provisions in the concession.

Sir, the Government has held several meetings with the shareholders and management of RSZ on the need to balance the contentious issues in the agreement for the benefit of both parties.

As a result of these discussions, RSZ agreed to inject an additional investment of US$30 million for infrastructure upgrade and they have submitted their investment plan which we are considering.
 Further, we are considering the option of ZR assuming the responsibility of maintaining the railway infrastructure, including the rolling stock, while the concessionaire provides the services.

 It is important to note that the Government needs to mobilise resources for investment in the railway infrastructure in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, it is absolutely clear that both RSZ and the Government of the Republic of Zambia are in default of their twenty year concession contract which is almost at its half way mark because this is the ninth year it has been in operation.

 Can the hon. Minister inform this House, and the nation at large, whether they want to continue with this default or they are going to be practical and ensure that the US$30 million is injected into the ZR infrastructure for the operation of the RSZ to be appreciated by Zambians.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I wish to begin by correcting the impression that this concession has been running for nine years. It has actually been running for six years now. It began in the year 2003.

Regarding the way forward for RSZ, it does not matter how you look at this matter. What is important is to find resources to invest in the infrastructure. The infrastructure is 100 years old and plays a critical role in the transportation of goods and people in the north-south corridor.

We held several discussions with RSZ and were supposed to have held a very important shareholders’ meeting with them sometime last year. Unfortunately, the meeting was postponed because of the untimely demise of our late President.

However, we have resumed those discussions. In fact, I met RSZ yesterday. We came up with a schedule of meetings to be held before the final one at the end of February. These meetings will involve RSZ, as shareholders, and all the other stakeholders on behalf of the Government. This will enable us find a way to bring the operations of the north-south corridor railway network to maximum capacity.

I thank you, Sir.

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours {mospagebreak}

[MR Speaker in the Chair]


06. Mr Simuusa (Nchanga) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) when Konkola Copper Mines Plc would relocate the residents of Lukasu Flats, who lived within 100 metres of the Nchanga Open Pit Mine; and

 (b) what the projected cost of the relocation was.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) has no plans to relocate the residents of Lukasu Flats as they are about 200 metres away from Nchanga Open Pit Mine and not within 100 metres as claimed by the hon. Member for Nchanga. It, therefore, follows that there is no cost involved.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Minister to tell this House why there have been meetings for the last six years on the Lukasu Flats being moved since he has said that it is a non-issue because the flats are 200 metres away from the open pit mine? Why has the Government and KCM been having these meetings when all along the flats have not been 100 metres away from the mine?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, as the hon. Minister ably put it to the House, according to the law, the minimum distance at which an operation is unsafe is 100 metres. According to the information that we have, which has been verified by our officers, Nchanga Open Pit Mine is 200 metres away from the flats.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, following an accident which killed about seven people which occurred as a result of a movement in the ground at Nchanga Open Pit Mine, mining inspectors came to Nchanga and indicated that the residents of Lukasu Flats should be relocated. What has changed between that time and now for the Government to state that KCM has no plans to relocate the residents as the flats are 200 metres away from its operations?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I am sure that the hon. Member of Parliament may be aware that this could be a result of studies of ground movements which could have endangered the lives of the people of Lukasu. However, as he may recall, last year, in response to a question that was asked in this House, it was clearly stated that KCM had put in place measures to monitor the ground movements and that it had been proved that the situation was no longer dangerous for the people of Lukasu.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister is aware that the houses at Lukasu Flats have cracks because of the daily blasts. What is the Government doing to ensure that these people are compensated?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, fortunately, this Government has a very good legal system and any aggrieved person can seek redress in our courts of law.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister enlighten me bearing in mind that any mining investment has several installations which include tailing dams, offices and concentrators. With regard to the 200 metres that he has referred to, which installation, in particular, would be detrimental to people living within that radius.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the question is very clear. It is talking about the mining operations that are taking place at Nchanga Open Pit Mine which can pose a danger to the Lukasu Flats. However, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the activities at the mine have now reduced and its life is virtually coming to an end.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Speaker: Next question! The hon. Member for Choma Central.

Hon. Members: The hon. Member for Choma Central is not in the House.

Mr Speaker: He is not in the House and the question has lapsed.


8. Mr Chimbaka (Bahati) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when construction of the Senama Police Station and staff houses in Mansa District would commence.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the survey and preparation of drawings for Senama Police Station will be done by April, 2009. However, construction cannot commence because Senama is not on the list of projects earmarked for this year. It will be considered in next year’s Budget.

In the meantime, I shall be grateful if the hon. Member of Parliament for Bahati can assure my ministry of the availability of a piece of land upon which the police station and staff houses are to be constructed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that, statistically, Senama Township has the highest level of crime because of the numerous mining activities taking place there. What tentative measures is the ministry contemplating to address this situation, especially that law and order must be maintained for development to take place?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, there are no statistics to prove that crime in Senama Township is more than in the surrounding areas in Mansa. However, we appreciate the concern of the hon. Member of Parliament. For the time being, before construction begins in 2010, Senama Township will be under Mansa Police Station.

I thank you, Sir.


9. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many night school centres were established in Chilubi District as at 31st December, 2008;

(b) whether the Government was considering increasing the number of the centres at (a) above; and

(c) why the Government was in salary arrears for night school teachers from January to August, 2008.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the house as follows:

(a) there were no night school centres established in Chilubi District as at 31st December, 2008;

(b) there are no such plans; and

(c) the Government does not pay night school teachers.

I thank you, Sir.
Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why he has no intention of establishing such centres in the district when there is a major demand for night schools from the general population.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, at the moment, night schools are a community driven service. The ministry gives expert advice to those communities that are currently running night schools. If the hon. Member of Parliament would like to see some night schools being provided in his constituency, he is free to work with the community in the constituency and we can provide expert service or advice to the community.

I thank you, Sir.


10. Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Health when the ministry would open health posts in the following places in Chililabombwe Parliamentary Constituency:

(a) Chilima;

(b) Chivambi;

(c) Miyanda;

(d) Anoya Zulu;

(e) Miteta;

(f) Joseph Mwilwa; and

(g) Kawama.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that currently, there are no plans to open clinics at some of the above sites. Chilima, Chivambi, Silwiza, Miyanda, Anoya and Joseph Mwilwa are within 5 kilometres of Lubengele, Kakoso and Chinfushi health centres and have a population of less than 2000 people. Therefore, these centres can access health services from the already existing health facilities. However, Kawama is further off and has a population greater than 5000 people. Therefore, the district has planned to construct three health posts in 2009 at Kawama, Kantupu and Fyesu.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that Development Aid from People to People (DAPP), in conjunction with the communities, constructed a lot of health posts in the peri-urban areas. Why did the Government allow DAPP to construct these health posts if they did not have intentions to have health centres in those areas?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of what the hon. Member of Parliament has mentioned. She has asked for health posts in these places and we have said we cannot build them because the policy is not to have health posts in areas within five kilometres of a health centre. All the areas I mentioned, except Kawama, are within five kilometres of a health centre. We plan to construct a health post in Kawama this year. Therefore, I am not in a position to answer that question.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Thanks of this Assembly be recorded for the exposition of public policy contained in the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Yes, Mr Speaker.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, allow me to start by thanking you for according me this rare honour and privilege to move the Motion of Thanks to the Address by his Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, the President of the Republic of Zambia on the occasion of the Official Opening of the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly on Friday, 16th January, 2009.

Mr Speaker, I would like to congratulate the President for articulating a comprehensive and well researched speech which touched on many issues that affected our country in the past year.

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, in His Excellency’s address, the notable key sectors were discussed in detail. The President did not only outline the challenges that the country was facing, but also areas that needed more attention.

Mr Speaker, in my discussion, I will not follow the sub-headings which were outlined in the President’s Speech, but rather will elaborate on the salient issues that will help the country move forward.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, in his speech, His Excellency the President noted that 2008 was a challenging year. He further stated that the death of our late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, caused a regression of what had begun as a prosperous year.

However, on a good note, the death of our late President united all Zambians from all walks of life in comparison to volatile transitions of Government that take place in other African countries. I wish, therefore, to appeal to all Zambians, starting with all hon. Members in this House to uphold that spirit of unity in order that we achieve all the good things which are contained in the President’s Speech.

Sir, with regard to governance, His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, informed this House that his Government will continue to uphold the principles of accountability, transparency and good governance. To this effect, The Government, under his able leadership, shall continue to uphold the rule of law and the policy of zero tolerance on corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the President further warned that those who operate outside the law would be made to account for their actions. I fully support the President on his commitment to the institutions that fight corruption. In this vein, His Excellency, the President stated that the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) will receive additional funding to make it more efficient and effective.

Mr Speaker, further, the Government’s commitment to the fight against corruption has been demonstrated by the signing and ratification of international protocols and conventions against corruption.

Sir, in relation to constitutionalism, His Excellency the President informed the House that his Government will continue to give the necessary support to the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) in order for it to implement its programmes. This is to ensure that the NCC delivers its draft report and Constitutional Bill without delay.

Mr Speaker, the President called upon all Zambian citizens to genuinely participate in the new constitutional process. As the President recognises the importance of participation, he emphasised that arrangements have been made to receive public comments from all the districts simultaneously when the draft report and draft Constitution are ready.

Mr Speaker, in his speech, the President talked about the Electoral Reforms being undertaken by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) which are aimed at enhancing the electoral process.

Sir, I note, with sadness, the inability of ECZ to register newly qualified voters in the 2008 Presidential and Parliamentary bye-elections and its subsequent reliance on the 2006 voters roll due to budgetary constraints. It is reassuring, however, to note that the ECZ plans to undertake the continuous voter registration exercise in 2009. I hope that all stakeholders will support the registration exercise.

Sir, His Excellency the President also reiterated the Government’s priority to fight poverty as stated in his inaugural address last November despite the current global financial and economic crises that have affected the whole world. I join the President in urging Zambians to unite and work together to overcome poverty, especially that our country is endowed with abundant natural and human resources.

Mr Speaker, the President further outlined the successes the Government had continued to score such as the continued upward growth of the gross domestic product (GDP), declining inflation rates and decreasing interest rates. However, there is need to work extra hard so that the country does not backtrack on the achieved positive growth.             

Sir, the global recession has severely affected many sectors. In our country, the fall in copper prices has affected the much-needed revenue for developmental projects. Furthermore, the high cost of fertiliser and fuel have had a negative impact on our economy and contributed to the high inflation rate. It is regrettable that some industries have restructured to mitigate against the global credit crunch through a massive retrenchment of workers. I am proud to state that the Government has responded by putting in place measures that will mitigate against the impact of the global economic recession. These measures include:

(a) engaging mining companies to prevent major job losses and encouraging other investors to come;

(b) diversification of the economy through:

(i) the provision of resources to the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF);

(ii) the provision of adequate resources for infrastructure development; and

(iii) encouraging private sector participation in the development process.

Mr Speaker, all these measures have been laid out because of the able leadership of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah  Bwezani Banda.


Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the President’s able leadership is there for all to see.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: He has not only sounded a timely warning that the global crisis must not be used as an excuse to retrench the workforce indiscriminately, as a measure to cut operational costs, but has also directed the hon. Minister of Labour and Social Security to ensure that the Tripartite Labour Council is fully involved in any industrial restructuring which may lead to the reduction of output of the labour force.

Mr Speaker, as the nation endeavours to develop economically, there have been stronger calls than ever before for the Government to empower its citizens in order to foster economic growth and reduce poverty. It is, therefore, imperative that the Government focuses on the development of micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) as a means of generating employment and skills for all its citizens.

In this regard, the Government should be commended for setting up the CEEF, whose aim, amongst others, is to provide start-up capital and initial support for people starting new small businesses. While implementing these good initiatives to empower citizens, it is my hope that the disbursement of project funds will reach the intended targets, particularly the Zambian youth and women.

I also wish to commend the Government for establishing the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZ) in Lusaka South and Chambishi, for both exports and domestic oriented industries, which will facilitate the creation of thousands of jobs.

Mr Speaker, His Excellency stated that his administration continues to place agriculture as a priority sector because of its potential in the creation of wealth to ensure sustainable food security at all levels. If agriculture is to be a leading sector in the country, it is important that farmers receive farming inputs on time, have appropriate extension services and receive the right prices for the output. I am pleased to note that the Government understands these concerns and will put correct measures in the 2009/2010 farming season.

Mr Speaker, I expect the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to improve their operations this year, especially that the President has directed that it concentrates on buying crops from the remotest parts of the country and that it does it on time.

Mr Speaker, Zambia is endowed with abundant natural resources. Therefore, tourism, the environment and natural resources have the potential to significantly contribute to poverty reduction as well as employment and wealth creation.  It is important that stakeholders work with the Government to develop a national plan that will improve infrastructure such as accommodation, road network and communication in order to achieve quality services in the tourism sector. It is pleasing to note that the Government is seriously promoting tourism in Luapula and Northern provinces, and has also embarked on the rehabilitation of major roads, airports and communication infrastructure.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is also a well known fact that the tourism, agriculture and mining sectors are vulnerable to changes in weather patterns. For instance, in the 2007/2008 farming season, our country experienced severe floods, which are likely to occur in the same regions again in the current farming season. It is imperative that issues of climate change are mainstreamed in all the sectors of the economy. To this effect, His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Banda, reported that the Government would implement the National Adaptation Plan of Action aimed at adapting and mitigating the impact of climate change.

Mr Speaker, in his speech, His Excellency, the President informed the House about the challenges that the mining industry faced in 2008 such as inadequate power supply, falling copper prices and the dwindling international credit due to the global financial crisis. These challenges are expected to continue in 2009. In this regard, investors in the mining sector and the Government should work together to find the best possible solutions to mitigate the impact of the global financial crisis.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to hail our co-operating partners for their continued support towards the development of our country. Their contribution has uplifted the lives of many citizens of our country. We can only ask them to continue supporting us even in the face of the current global financial crisis. I am particularly concerned with the support to HIV/AIDS, particularly the provision of the anti-retroviral drugs (ARVs) which should not be adversely affected.

I would also like to thank the hon. Members of Parliament for working hard in the last session. I hope that we shall work together to provide guidance and leadership to the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, it is a great privilege to be asked to second the Motion of Thanks to the speech of His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, the fourth president of this fantastic Republic …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: … on the Official Opening of the Third Session of the Tenth National Assembly. He came in on a wave of a lot of goodwill. Many political parties did not push their agenda in order to help the country move forward. 
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: It is because we believe that the spirit of Zambia is stronger than any problems we might face that we expect that even as we move forward, we will consider Zambia first.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Speaker, it is a great privilege to second this Motion on this historic day when the United States of America is putting the first black American president in the White House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: If those changes can take place there, we expect that we also can manage our changes here.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: No rigging.

Ms Imbwae: Mr Speaker, I am also aware that I am moving this Motion at a time when the world is experiencing a severe global financial crisis.

This Motion will accord me the opportunity to express, on behalf of the people of Lukulu West and the nation in general, our views on what is happening in the country, particularly in agriculture, education, local government, climate change, which is part of tourism, and the electoral process.

Mr Speaker, I am happy to note that the Government, under the leadership of His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has prioritised agriculture, with emphasis on increasing and sustaining food security at all levels. However, while the President and his administration continue to make such wonderful pronouncements, it is unfortunate that the situation on the ground is not corresponding to these pronouncements.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: Now you are talking!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Speaker, the need for the country to achieve food security cannot be over-emphasised. Food security, according to the National Agricultural Policy, is defined as the access by all Zambians at all times to enough food of the right type for an active and healthy life on a sustainable basis. This definition is facing a lot of challenges in many of our rural areas. Food security is essential for the country to achieve sovereignty and reduce poverty levels as the majority of Zambians depend on agriculture-related activities

Mr Speaker, in other places, people say that agriculture is a business, but we have not managed to rise to that level.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Speaker, allow me to spend a bit of time on the agricultural policy and the current Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) which affects the majority of the people in the rural areas.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: The House may be reminded that this programme was established under the Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper (PRSP) for the period 2002 to 2004 as one of the five programmes created to increase food production and enhance food security amongst small-scale farmers by supplying fertiliser and seed at a 50 per cent subsidy.

Mr Speaker, I think it is important for the Government to use this policy to provide subsidised agricultural inputs to small-scale farmers to help them develop to higher levels of agricultural production. It is, therefore, my suggestion that a time-frame should be given in which small-scale farmers are expected to graduate to medium-scale and commercial farming and start relying on themselves. I cannot see a country carrying on with subsidies for the whole time and failing to meet even a third of what they are expecting to do. In this way, the programme will enable new entrants to be admitted into the programme.

Mr Speaker, I consider this programme crucial not only for poverty reduction, but also for the food security of our rural areas because it tackles a major factor which is the lack of access by small-scale farmers to agricultural inputs that hinder rural households from improving their economic well-being.

Mr Speaker, I would like to urge this Government, through the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, to strengthen and facilitate the provision of agricultural services in order to increase productivity, particularly among small holder farmers.

Sir, it is my hope that the Presidential directive on the provision of extension services will be carried out. Many of our rural areas do not have extension officers. I have made many requests to the ministry, but I have not received an answer up to now. We, therefore, hope that this time it will work. I further urge the Government to provide professional training institutions in every province and provide transport and housing to extension officers in their camps and blocs to enable them carry out their functions.

Sir, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training should be provided with training institutions at provincial level and the Ministry of Education should do the things that we are beginning to see, even though it is not at the level we expect. We expect that agriculture which has been prioritised will be provided with training facilities so that there are sufficient extension officers to cover the provinces.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Speaker, while appreciating the promise made by His Excellency the President that the FSP will continue, I want to express my concern over the exclusion of many stakeholders. The newspapers are full of stories about civil servants forming co-operatives to benefit from the programme, thereby depriving the most needy. I think we need to extend the programme so that it reaches the level where people will not take what is meant for others and use it for themselves because they have access to the resource.
Mr Speaker, the issue of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) Plant in Kafue should be addressed immediately so that the country knows where to get its fertiliser any time it wants.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Without this, the country is in trouble

Sir, concurrently with the administration of the FSP, I wish to encourage the Government to take organic farming very seriously. This will enable the bulk of farmers at various levels to produce not only maize, that is dependent on fertiliser, but also crops like cassava, millet and sweet potatoes which will mitigate the food insecurity in the country. A country that cannot feed itself is a disaster.

Mr Speaker, allow me to move to the sector of education. I believe that a nation that is not educated cannot meaningful develop due to the lack of skilled human resource. We had a good start in education, but we seem to have lost it somewhere midstream.

Sir, it is sad to note that after forty-four years of being independent, our education sector has not yet developed to satisfactory levels. Up to now, we are still using mud and pole schools in most rural areas and children have to walk long distances to get to these poorly constructed schools. We cannot expect much in terms of education from such children. This is the reason the pass rates in the rural areas are pathetic. As you are aware, education is regarded as a basic human right and very fertile too to the development of the nation. As such, we expect to see improved rural school infrastructures not selectively given, but generally given to everybody.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: We also need good housing for our teachers. There are number of schools in this country where you will not find teachers because they have moved away because their mud and pole houses have also collapsed.

 Mr Speaker, if we do the right thing in education, that is, build teachers’ houses and provide roads so that the schools are accessible, more teachers will be attracted to these areas. Subsequently, this will improve the pass rate and enable our people and the country meet the millennium development goals (MDGs).

 Mr Speaker, it is in this vein that I wish to appeal to the Government to improve the quality and standard of education in the whole country. The Government needs to build boarding schools in remote areas. In fact, every constituency should have, at least, two high schools which are boarding schools to lessen the problem of pupils having to travel long distances. Most of these places are so bushy and far that little children cannot go to the schools safely.

Mr Speaker, if this is done, it will enable more children access education and ultimately improve the quality of life of every Zambian so that they can make choices on what careers they want to pursue in order to compete competitively both locally and internationally. In fact, it is necessary that issues of food security, the environment and energy are included in the school curricula at a very early age so that people can know what to expect.

Mr Speaker, let me now move to Local Government and housing. I agree with His Excellency the President’s statement that effective Local Government provides access to various developmental assets such as land as well as the provision of social services to the people. In his address, the President touched on the need to create new partnerships between Central Government and Local Government, adopting the Decentralisation Implementation Plan, setting up the Local Government Service Commission, extension of the Mayors and Council Chairpersons tenure of office and the purchase of motor vehicles for gazetted traditional rulers among others.

Sir, while the list on the things that the Government intends to do appears long, my analysis on the ground shows that the Central Government is not really concerned about the real issues that will improve the working of local authorities.

Mr Speaker, how long has the Government taken to implement the Decentralisation Policy? Even this year, the Government is still talking about working towards adopting the implementation plan. I would like to urge the Government to expedite the full implementation of the Decentralisation Policy that will devolve real power and the attendant financial and human resources to the local authorities to enable them carry out their functions with minimum interference from the Central Government when we have the right people in the right places.

I would also like to urge Government to build the capacity of staff in the local authorities in the implementation of council programmes. In addition, it is sad to note that, in certain councils, chief officers do not have the relevant qualifications to hold their positions. It is, therefore, necessary for the Government to carry out an audit of all the personnel running our councils, and eventually replace those without proper qualifications. Furthermore, steps must be taken to deal with the nepotism which has been prevalent in the appointments and misappropriations that are happening in many of our councils.

Mr Speaker, I am glad to note that the Government has implemented the National Adaptation Plan of Action (NAPA) aimed at adapting and mitigating the effects of climate change. However, climate change does not only affect agriculture, but our well being as well. May I indicate to the House that it will be a great advantage to this country to provide financial resources to all the ministries dealing with climate change, such as, the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Ministry of Energy and Water Development and Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives get resources to help them monitor issues that are related to climate change.

Sir, as my colleague the mover of this Motion said, it is important to have a continuous registration of voters. However, that is not going to be achieved without support to the relevant departments concerned if we are to issue national registration cards (NRCs) to as many of our people as possible. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to get an NRC.

Mr Lubinda: Yes!

Ms Imbwae: People enjoy seeing many people queuing in front of their offices. If we improve the issuance of NRCs, we will also improve the continuous voter registration exercise. If we do not do that, our pursuit for democracy is going to be a song and not a reality.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Speaker, as I conclude, I want to ask the ministry in charge of issuing NRCs to work with the ECZ to ensure that we have continuous national and voter registration.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I am so grateful that you have given me an opportunity to debate on the Motion on the Floor of this House on the President’s Speech.

Sir, I would like to send my condolences to the family of our late President, His Excellency, President Patrick Levy Mwanawasa, SC. I would also like to convey my heartfelt condolences to the families of my two colleagues who passed away, the hon. Members of Parliament for Kanchibiya and Milanzi constituencies.

One thing that touches me the most concerning the death of those three people who were very important to our nation is that they have all left very young children. That touches me because I grew up as a single orphan. However, with God’s grace and the support of my family, I am here today, speaking on the Floor of this House and contributing to the development of my country. Therefore, I would urge hon. Members of Parliament to support these children who have been left. Even our small contributions will go a long way in assisting these children.

Mr Speaker, as I contribute to the Motion on the Floor of this House, there are three areas which are of great importance to me. These are: the gender issue, power, transport and communications and the All Africa Games.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: I promise that I will not take much of your time.
Mr Speaker, when the President talked about gender, I was puzzled to hear that female Members of Parliament were going to be appointed to Cabinet on merit. When I look at the hon. Members of Parliament in this House, especially on the other side, their curriculum vitaes (CVs) cannot be compared to those of some of the men seated in front of me. They are incomparable.


Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Therefore, what did the President mean?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear! Bauze!

Mr Lubinda: Bauze!

Mrs Phiri: If you look at the calibre of the hon. Members and deputy ministers …

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!


Mr Speaker: The Chair will not allow the hon. Member to debate along those lines.

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I agree that jobs should be given on merit and I hope that that will be done.

Sir, when I talk about power, transport and communications, it touches my heart because I belonged to this industry at one time. 
Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Sir, last year, I mentioned the civilian radar at the Lusaka International Airport. When I spoke about that in this House, we saw some progress. The radar was advertised and bidders were identified. However, it is now almost a year and everything has come to a stand still. I would like to find out, through you, Mr Speaker, what has happened to this very important equipment that is needed at the International Airport. We were promised on the Floor of this House that something was going to be done.

Mongu Airport is very close to the border, but it has a power generator. As a result, the nave aids are constantly off. They have a generator which has not been working for a long time. With the power outrages, it has not been easy for the navigators at this airport to do their job. Mr Speaker, through you, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport what they are doing about this nave aid at Mongu Airport.

Mr Speaker, there is a public outcry about Zambian Airways which is one of the very important airlines in this country.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri: Personally, I blame the MMD Government for the failure of this airline.

Hon. Government Members: Aaah!

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mrs Phiri: Why do I say so?


Mrs Phiri: This airline came up as a result of a management buy-out. This company was sold to six professionals; two engineers, two aircraft engineers, one accountant and one administrator. When the airline was being privatised, these people invited two prominent lawyers to help in the legal aspects of the transaction. What happened? When the lawyers had completed the process of transferring the airline to those who had bought it through a management buy-out, they demanded 3.5 per cent shares each in the airline instead of money. Initially, they had asked for 15 per cent, but the owners refused. Therefore, they were given 3.5 per cent shares each which came to 7 per cent. Each of the directors had 15 per cent shares in Zambian Airways. 5 per cent was left as floating shares. If you add that up, it will come to 100 per cent.

Mr Speaker, when Zambian Airways was taken over by the management buy-out team, it owned a 300 beach aircraft and a 1900 C series with a nineteen capacity carrier. The management buy-out team sent the two lawyers to Wichita in Kansas in the USA to sign for the leased aeroplanes. When these two lawyers went there, instead of negotiating for one aeroplane which was planned for, they negotiated for two aeroplanes which created an operational problem. Two directors went to the Government to ask for help.


Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I am pleading with the Government to seriously look at the welfare of the people who are working for Zambian Airways. I am saying this because I know what I am talking about. If we had a country of laws and not men, in 2003 the Government would have investigated what was going on in Zambian Airways.

Sir, as things are now, I am pleading with the Government because most of the 260 people working for Zambian Airways will probably lose their jobs without a pension.

Mr Speaker, after the original owners of Zambian Airways lost their shares, they were paid US$1 by the directors who took over the airline; the two lawyers. Today, if you went to Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA) or the Patents and Companies Registration Office (PACRO), you would find the names of the original owners of Zambian Airways.

 Sir, for a person like me who houses most of these people in my constituency, I would like the Government to find a way of making sure that these people get their benefits. I would also like the Government to find out why this company is going under.

Mr Speaker, in 2003, the Zambian Government owed Zambian Airways US$500,000. When the lawyers were removing the other directors from the company pretending that the company was facing liquidity problems, the company they had leased the aeroplanes from was asking for US$3,500. The MMD Government did not bail out that company. To date, I do not know whether that money has been paid. 
Sir, in the interest of the families of the employees of Zambian Airways, consideration should be given to this matter so that our people are looked after.

Mr Speaker, I now want to discuss the All Africa Games. I know that my constituency was going to benefit from these games. Even the President mentioned in his Speech that there were hostels to be built at the University of Zambia (UNZA).

Sir, it is unfortunate that the hon. Minister responsible for education is not here because I wanted to make it very clear to him that when he says on the Floor of this House that some MPs visit UNZA and go to check if a bulb is working I know he is referring to me. I agree that I do that and I will not stop doing it. This is because I am a housewife and am involved in the home-based care programme, therefore, I understand how diseases are transmitted. Students go into these toilets and bathrooms which have no lights when we know that some diseases, including HIV/AIDS, are transmitted through fluids.

Mr Speaker, I will continue going to UNZA to make sure that our children are safe. We know that there are criminals who go to the university. Only last month, a child was raped at UNZA because of lack of security and no lighting. If somebody, whoever he is, comes and says I should stop going to UNZA to check on these things, I will not stop. I will check on the lights, toilets, garbage and the boreholes which have been sunk at a high cost, but have not been secured and have now become death traps.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu (Chikankata): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion of Thanks to the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, this Motion has been moved by my fellow youth who needs support.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, I will draw the attention of my hon. Colleagues to the Fertiliser Support Programme on page 23 of the President’s Address.

Mr Speaker, I am a Member of Parliament who represents a rural constituency. Obviously, the mainstay of the people in the constituency is agriculture and the FSP affects my people. This programme has brought more harm than good to our people.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, I am sure that when the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace, brought the FSP his vision was to alleviate poverty and he meant well. Now he is gone and this programme has been distorted.

This programme has been distorted to a point where our people have been left with nothing. First of all, hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, the current President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has stated in his speech that this programme will continue.

However, the problem starts at the top. You have the office bearers; the district agricultural coordinating officers (DACOs), the district agricultural co-operative(DAC) members and the block supervisors. These people are the custodians of the problems the people are facing in accessing the fertiliser which is provided by this programme. These are the people benefiting from the district agricultural co-operatives up to the last member in this office. First of all, they have to know which co-operatives are being allocated this fertiliser and which ones they are going to benefit from before they start disbursing the fertiliser.

Sir, after this is done, the fertiliser is shared by these people before it actually reaches our farmers. This is the reason there are so many problems in the districts today. Many problems have been caused by the DAC members. If this programme has to continue, I urge you, hon. Minister, to reshuffle or revisit these offices so that this programme is carried out in the manner it was started by the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC.

Sir, this time around, we have experienced a lot of problems with this programme. We have heard of fertiliser going missing, some people not receiving the fertiliser and some being swindled because of the same problem. If the problem is sorted out at the top and even the transporters who are contracted controlled, it will not reoccur. However, at the moment, this is a thorny issue and if it is not looked into, it is better to discontinue the programme.

Mr Speaker, I would like to take you back to the time the President of the Republic of Zambia announced that the price of fertiliser would be K50,000. This statement misled the farmers and has made them go hungry. This is because when the President announced that fertiliser was going to cost K50,000, the farmers used their money to purchase farming implements such as ploughs. They thought that with what they had remained with, they would be able to purchase the fertiliser at K50,000 per bag. I do not know whether this was an election gimmick by His Excellency, but it has created a problem. As a result, our people are suffering.

Mr Speaker, right now, some farmers have not planted their seed because after paying the down payment, they have not yet been given fertiliser. If these people do not get their fertiliser now, then it means hunger. This is a Government which is talking about the food security pack. There is no way we can achieve that with such problems and poor planning.

Mr Speaker, I go to the field and plant maize and at harvest time, I harvest all the maize and sell it and remain with nothing. I am talking about this Government. Maize was harvested and after that, the Government sold it at a cheap price to Zimbabwe. Now that there is hunger in the nation, the Government is planning to buy maize from Brazil at a higher price.

UPND Member: Shame!

Mr Habeenzu: What kind of planning is that? Mr Speaker, God help this sleeping Government.

Hon. Opposition Member: Bad Government.

Mr Habeenzu: Our people will die because of the irresponsibility of this sleeping Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, the hunger that I am talking about, which the President was supposed to address, is real in our constituencies. Hon. Mooya exhibited what people are feeding on in these villages. He brought roots and displayed them and one of the Government officials said if someone eats that and it gives him/her energy then, let the people feed on it. What kind of people do we have in this Government?

Mr Speaker, we would like the Government to tell us if they have failed. I do not want to go any further because issues such as cattle, I would like my elder brother, Hon. Major Chizhyuka, to address.


Mr Habeenzu: Mr Speaker, every country has that bird which is on that portrait, but the cattle, which I want Hon. Chizhyuka to address, was used at the time of independence and brought independence because people contributed so that we could get our independence.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: I want my elder brother to address that issue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Habeenzu: I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, let me thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on the Motion which is on the Floor. I wish to start by stating that the Presidential speech did not inspire me in any way.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Why do I say so? I have been in this House for almost three years now and I have listened to two very technical Presidential speeches by the late President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace.

PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: The speech that we heard this year, Mr Speaker, I am sorry to say, was very hollow with promises, but without giving solutions. If you give a speech that highlights problems without giving solutions, it is empty. This is what we were treated to last Friday.

Mr Speaker, why do I say so? In Zambia, we are fond of talking the talk and not walking the talk. Last Friday, the President stated that the Opposition and ruling party need to reconcile. There can be no reconciliation if the President cannot, first and foremost, reconcile with the people who challenged him in his own political party.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We have seen a situation where two of the best brains on the other side sitting in the Back Bench underutilised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Magande.

Mr Kambwili: We have seen two of the brilliant brains that contributed to Mwanawasa’s success sitting in the Back Bench underutilised.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I am so upset because I believe that the problem at Luanshya Copper Mines (LCM) would have been resolved if Hon. Magande was still minister.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I remember, Mr Speaker, that when we introduced the windfall tax, Hon. Magande stated on the Floor of this House that we were going to put the windfall tax collections in a different pot and not in the national pot so that should we have problems in the mining companies, we could fall on that reserve.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I believe that if he was given the opportunity to continue, we would have taken money from that pot to bail out LCM and Chambishi Metals. However, because of petty politics and petty jealousy in African politics …


Mr Speaker: Order!

The manner of debate in this House requires integrity in the manner you put your point of view across. The hon. Member for Roan, in his debate, is beginning to question what is referred to as Presidential prerogative with regard to appointments. This House cannot go that way because you do not participate in the appointment or removal of Cabinet and Deputy Ministers. They may be collectively answerable to this House, but we may not single out any one of them for debate in this House. Please, remember what is known as Government policy and not personal policy.

The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I am much obliged for your counsel.

Sir, I expected to hear the way forward for LCM in the President’s Speech. I was so disappointed that the President did not even touch an issue affecting 2,700 employees who are about to lose their jobs on Wednesday. This is a national disaster. We know what we went through during the time of Binani when Luanshya came to a complete standstill.

Mr Speaker, you will not be surprised to hear Shoprite, Pep Stores and many other investors pull out of Luanshya as a result of LCM closing down. This is because the entire economy of Luanshya depends on the mining industry. Without mining operations, there can be no economic boom in this town. The Government must know that the issues surrounding the withdrawal of the investors from this mine are its responsibility and must find a lasting solution to them.

Major Chizhyuka and Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On the other hand, the Government is to blame for what is happening at LCM. If we look back at when the mine was sold to the current investor, both units, that is Luanshya Mine and Baluba Mine, were given to one investor. Later on, the investor was also sold the Mulyashi Project. This investor decided to run only the Baluba Mine and left out the Luanshya Mine which comprises shafts14, 18 and 28.

The current owners flooded the mines and abandoned them. They did a letter of abandonment and gave it to the Government. Consequently, the Government found another investor for Luanshya Mines, Puku Minerals. This new company was given the tenement to run Luanshya Mine and three months later, the tenement was withdrawn.

When I was elected hon. Member of Parliament, I took up the issue with the Government. I am sure Hon. Dr Kalombo Mwansa and the current President and Vice-President will agree with me that I took my time and went to the United Kingdom and brought Puku Minerals. The three of us and the directors in the ministry commenced discussions with Puku Minerals. We agreed to allow Puku Minerals to reopen Luanshya Mine so that the current owners of the mine could run Baluba Mine. Puku Minerals was very eager and we had three consecutive meetings and agreed in principle.

However, when it came to signing and finalising the agreement, I do not know what happened. Puku Minerals came to see me and I went to the Vice-President’s Office and told him that Puku Minerals were ready to have a meeting. However, I was told that the Vice-President was not aware that we were supposed to have a meeting. When I phoned Hon. Dr Kalombo Mwansa, he said there were certain complications that he would explain later.


Mr Kambwili: Later on, I was informed that the President had directed that there should be no discussions with Puku Minerals whatsoever. Puku Minerals went. We protected the current investors who had flooded the mines instead of bringing another investor who was going to open the mine. What has happened today? The people we were protecting have pulled out. If Puku Minerals were allowed to invest in and run Luanshya Mine, we would have solved half the problem because the investor would still be running Luanshya Mine while Baluba Mine is closed.

Again, this year, when the President came to Luanshya, I indicated to him that earlier on he had promised me that he had the political will, as an individual, to let Puku Minerals come to Luanshya. He said that he was still willing and asked me to give the Government the contacts for Puku Minerals. Again, I went personally to the United Kingdom and engaged Puku Minerals. They gave certain conditions which could not be discussed with me, but with the Government. Puku Minerals told me that the Government should engage it so that it could see whether it could invest in Luanshya Mine. Suffice to say that the company is still eager to invest in the mine and claims that the tenement of Luanshya Mine belongs to it. It says that if the Government meets certain conditions that it has put forward, it is ready to come and reinvest in Luanshya Mine.

Mr Speaker, to date, the Government has not taken the trouble to speak to Puku Minerals, but is busy engaging Chinese investors. Let me warn the Government that we are not going to accept any Chinese investor in Luanshya.

Hon. Government Members: Who are you?

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: If Chinese investors are brought, they will be met with maximum resistance by the people of Luanshya.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We know what the Chinese are capable of doing. Instead of the Government discussing with a reputable organisation like Puku Minerals, it wants to choose to engage a Chinese investor.

Mr Speaker, I wonder whether hon. Government Members know that miners are paid K560,000 for going underground at Chambishi Metals Limited. Is that what the Government wants to bring to Luanshya?
Hon. PF Members: No!

Mr Kambwili: That is why I say, on behalf of the people of Luanshya, that we are not going to allow the Government to bring a Chinese investor. This must be taken as a timely but friendly warning.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, this Government has been careless in the way it gives licences to investors. The investors in LCM can walk out on the people of Luanshya at any time. They have nothing to lose. They paid US$7 million for the mine and have made profits in excess of US$300 to US$500 million. When they came to Luanshya Mine, they did not invest in any infrastructure and machinery. Therefore, what can stop them from pulling out of the mine when the price of copper has gone down? They have nothing to lose and can easily leave whatever they found. They have maximised on profits and can easily walk out on the people of Luanshya.

If this Government was serious enough to tell these mining investors to invest heavily in infrastructure and machinery, they would think twice about pulling out because it would entail leaving behind their investment. However, under the current circumstances, they have nothing to lose and can easily walk out on the people in the mines.

Mr Speaker, another disadvantage of bringing a Chinese investor is that China is the major consumer of copper in the world. If we allow the Chinese to start controlling the production of copper, the price will not go up. We will remain with holes in the ground and other environmental liabilities while the Chinese take our copper without our getting value for it.

I want to make a serious appeal to the Government that the mines that have been given to the Chinese so far are enough. The Government should not bring the Chinese to Luanshya. If the Government wants Chinese investment, it should take it to North-Western Province as Hon. Tetamashimba, unlike us, will be happy to receive the Chinese.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, why should we allow Chambishi Metals to close down? It is all because of the carelessness of this Government. Non Ferrous Metals Corporation (NFC), in Chambishi, is allowed to export 100 per cent of its production in form of concentrates to China, and yet two metres away from its plant is Chambishi Metals which is a treatment plant. Why should we close Chambishi Metals and allow NFC to export concentrates to China creating jobs for the people working in Chinese refineries, and yet our people remain without jobs in Chambishi? Does it make sense?

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Kambwili: We need to save Chambishi Metals by telling NFC to treat its concentrates at Chambishi Metals. We need to ban the export of concentrates. There are a lot of Chinese nationals camped on the Copperbelt who buy copper ore from dealers and taking it to China for processing. We need to tell them that after buying the copper ore from the people, they have to take it to Chambishi Metals to be processed. That way Chambishi Metals will not close down and we are going to save the 1500 jobs at that refinery.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Members on your right keep talking the talk and not walking the talk. The hon. Minister has been to the Copperbelt fifteen times and when he goes there, he just goes to the underground mines and says all is well and that the Government would get back to us. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development that when he comes to debate – it is unfortunate that he and his deputy are not in the House because I wish they were here to listen – to make sure that he sorts out the problem at LCM.

The miners in Luanshya do not want terminal benefits. They want to continue in employment. In my language we say, ‘akakunyele takalabwa.’ If, for instance, you are beaten by somebody, you will never forget. Whenever you want to play with him, you will think that he will beat you again.


Mr Kambwili: That is the situation in Luanshya. People suffered under the Roan Antelope Mining Corporation Zambia (RAMCOZ) and Binani. They do not want to suffer again.

Mr Speaker, the solution with regard to Luanshya Mine is to either engage a reputable investor like Puku Minerals or any other Indian, but not Chinese investor or give it to Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines Investment Holdings (ZCCM-IH).

Sir, in yesterday’s Post newspaper one of the hon. Deputy Ministers was reported to have said that Hichilema’s statement that he had put money in the mines was all rubbish. Surely, do you not know that putting money in the mines is meant to save the jobs and lives of the people of Luanshya and Chambishi? Is that what you can call foolish? The people will tell who is foolish between that person and Hichilema.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we should bear in mind that people listen to whatever we say. Therefore, we must be careful.

There is a problem in Luanshya. During the Binani period, fifteen suicide cases were recorded. Miners are used to getting paid, so when they do not get their money they get affected. You are talking about, for instance, diversification to agriculture. How do they go into agriculture when the price of fertiliser is K300,000.00 per bag? Do not celebrate that you are going to pay them terminal benefits. In any case, LCM has only been in existence for five years, and their conditions for retrenchment are that they pay two months salary for each year served. An average miner gets K1,500,000.00. If you multiply this figure by 2 you will get K3,000,000.00. When you further multiply it by 5 you get K15,000,000.00. What is K15,000,000.00? That is why I am saying the miners do not need terminal benefits, but to continue in employment. Take this as an official warning.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, let me comment on something which was referred to in the Speech by the President – land allocation. The President talked about land allocation and yet the technocrats, the civil servants, are doing the opposite.

Sir, in Luanshya there is an area called Maposa where 3,000 peasant farmers have been living since the 1960s. Today, the Permanent Secretary in the Copperbelt Province has told these people to vacate the land by 6th June, 2009. This is a sad development for a Government that is preaching diversification into agriculture. You are chasing peasant farmers and want to relocate them to land which is not fertile. Again, you will meet us with maximum resistance.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Those people will move from Maposa over my dead body. If it means fighting, we shall fight.


Mr Speaker: Order!

It is not parliamentary to refer to resistance by making reference to walking over dead bodies. You debate, hear and solve problems while you are alive. You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: Much obliged, Sir.

Sir, I want to remind you that we shall not agree to relocating the 3,000 peasant farmers. This morning, I was speaking to the hon. Minister for Copperbelt Province and requested him to travel with me to Luanshya over the weekend so that he can see the permanent structures that have been built there. One of the people who lives in that area, who has built a very nice house, is Hon. Willie Nsanda’s father and you want to demolish those houses. What kind of a government are you? You must feel pity on the people.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I  thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: Any further debate?

Hon. Members: Tomorrow.

Mr Speaker: Let me remind you that this House has only seven days to debate this Motion, inclusive of today. Those who will take the Floor early will do themselves and the nation a great deal of good because we have all the time to debate. If all of you prefer to debate in the last two days, you could be very disappointed because the House will need to move on to other matters.

However, I sense the good saying that, “Where your treasure is, there your heart will also be.”

Mr Speaker: My understanding is that there is treasure overseas and that is where the hearts are. However, remember that your treasure is actually here and not overseas.

 I have warned the House before that when a situation like this happens, that is, when the House runs out of ideas like now, the Chair should call on the mover to wind up his Motion and then we shall decide what to do between now and the 30th January, 2009.

As hon. Members of the House you have to undertake to come back here tomorrow and debate this Motion freely.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: There shall be no excuse for adjourning this House prematurely. I shall not allow that.




The Minister of Defence (Mr Mpombo): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1802 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 21st January, 2009.