Debates- Tuesday, 29th September, 2009

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 29th September, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

ANNOUNCMENT BY MR SPEAKER

6TH NATIONAL YOUTH PARLIAMENT PARTICIPANTS

Mr Speaker: I wish to inform the House of the presence, in the Public Galleries, of the participants in the 6th National Youth Parliament.

The Youth Parliament was held on Monday, 28th September, 2009, to commemorate the International Day of Democracy, whose theme for this year is “Democracy and Political Tolerance.”

I wish to congratulate the young participants on having held a successful Youth Parliament. I urge hon. Members of Parliament to find time to interact with them in their free time.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

_________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

INCENTIVES FOR TEACHERS WORKING IN RURAL AREAS

41. Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central) asked the Minister of Education:

(a) whether there were incentives for newly trained and recruited teachers to work in rural schools and, if so, what these incentives were; and

(b) whether there were any plans to improve the salary scales of teachers in rural schools as opposed to paying them rural hardship allowances.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the Government has acknowledged the hardship Public Service employees go through in rural/remote areas. In cushioning these hardships, the Government introduced the payment of a rural/remote hardship area allowance in 1994 and refined it in 2007. The rural hardship allowance is paid at 20 per cent and the remote hardship allowance at 25 per cent of one’s basic salary. The rationale behind the paying this allowance is to compensate Public Service employees who are deprived of the basic essential facilities not available in rural/remote areas.

Further, the Government is aware of the hardships and is putting up new infrastructure with a complement of teachers’ houses to attract them to teach in rural/remote areas. These houses, in some cases, are powered by the solar system. The Government is keen to address these hardships accordingly.

However, there are no plans to graduate the salary scales of teachers in rural schools. The salary scales for teachers are fixed and teachers graduate from one salary scale to another. In order to address the issue of salary disparities in the Civil Service, the Government is in the process of putting in place a policy to review the salary scale structure for all categories, including teachers.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, what plans does the Ministry have to address the issue of young teachers who shun working in rural areas despite getting the hardship allowance which takes long to come? Are there any plans to put these young teachers on a higher salary scale so as to attract them to work in rural areas that are always without teachers?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, in our elaborate answer, we already mentioned that this Government is setting up what we would call a “commission” to look into the salaries of teachers. As a ministry, we would, also, like to have an input so that we can address the hon. Member’s concern. However, I would like to thank him for the concern.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, last week, we were talking about promoting teachers, but retaining them in the classroom so that education standards can be improved. Is increasing of salaries for a rural teacher not a way of improving the education levels in the rural areas?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for showing concern for teachers in rural areas. That is exactly what I meant when I mentioned that, as a ministry, we are hoping to have some input so that we can have teachers in the classroom instead of just promoting them. They can get a higher salary while they continue to be teachers in a classroom.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, it can be assumed that the incentive of a rural/remote area hardship allowance is designed to attract teachers to stay in rural areas. Would the hon. Minister let the House know whether this particular policy instrument is working?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, yes that is the situation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, transport in rural areas is one of the difficult problems we have. Is the ministry going to consider budgeting for transport in the coming budget for teachers in the districts?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, you may wish to know that we have procured vehicles for our officials in every district and province. However, as an incentive, we had started giving loans to teachers and begun with the head teachers. We may not have covered many teachers, but I must inform this House that we have started the process, despite having limited resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Tembo: Mr Speaker, why is it that teachers in certain rural districts do not receive the rural/remote area hardship allowance, and yet workers in other ministries receive these allowances?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, what I know is that, sometimes, we have run into logistical problems. Instead of capturing the districts which we feel are demarcated as rural areas, we find that this is not done. It is our hope to capture each district demarcated as rural.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, one of the reasons for the shortage of teachers in the rural areas is that this Government has been sending new recruits who are married. When is the Ministry going to stop sending married teachers to rural areas even when it is known that they will, within a short time, come back to join their husbands?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that concern, but I would like to point out that it hinges on human rights. It is the right of our female teachers to apply to schools that have vacancies. We now employ according to the available vacancies and it is better to allow them to work for a minimum of two years and then come back and join their husbands. I thought that the young hon. Member …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Sinyinda: …would advocate for equal opportunities for all.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell this House if the Government is up to date with the payment of rural/remote hardship area allowances.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, like I mentioned earlier, we are not up to date with the payments of the rural/remote area hardship allowance and we acknowledge that we have logistical problems. However, it is our hope that we will try to address the problems that our teachers are facing as much as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, it is public knowledge that the so-called hardship allowance is not easily accessible to teachers. When is the Ministry going to consider paying to the hardworking teachers the rural/remote area hardship allowance together with the salary other than paying it in arrears?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I know that we still have logistical problems, but it is our hope that this issue can be addressed as adequately as possible. I would like to thank all the hon. Members for showing the concern for our teachers. I would like to assure the House that our Ministry would like to deliver quality education. We realise that to do this, we must motivate the teachers, especially those in the rural areas.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, in answering a supplementary question from the hon. Member for Chienge, the hon. Deputy Minister said that the rural/remote area hardship allowance policy is working very well. Does it not occur to the hon. Minister that in spite of this policy, we tend to get more teachers in the urban areas and hardly any in the rural areas? Does it not occur to him that the policy is not working?

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, the mandate of the Ministry is to provide education for all citizens, including those in rural areas. You will recall that we have, a number of times, said in this House that in the last three years, our recruitment programme concentrated on the rural areas and three quarters of the recruited teachers were deployed to the rural areas.

We do acknowledge that there is a need to have an incentive to keep the teachers in the rural areas because of the hardships there. As a Ministry, we have, also, realised that we face some logistical problems in terms of ensuring that we actually pay the teachers the the rural/remote area hardship allowances. We are, also, facing another challenge on the definition of what was rural and remote. Initially, it was that if an area did not have a radio signal, then it was remote, but, today, owing to technology, the areas which were initially defined as rural are not considered remote by some people because now they have a radio signal. Others argue that the areas are remote because although they have a radio signal, they lack other facilities such as proper road infrastructure, electricity and so on. As a Ministry, we want to review these definitions so that we can come up with a clear definition of what a remote or rural area is.

The policy of rural/remote area hardship area allowances is working. We have a number of teachers in rural areas and, as I have said, we have had a number of teachers applying to be deployed to rural areas. Therefore, the policy is working, but it has challenges and we are determined to address them.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

ECOBANK ZAMBIA LIMITED

42. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much money Ecobank has earmarked for investment in Zambia;

(b) how many branches the bank will open countrywide;

(c) how many jobs are likely to be created;

(d) how many of these jobs will be reserved for expatriates; and

(e) who the shareholders of the bank are.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the august House that Ecobank Zambia Limited was incorporated in Zambia on April, 30, 2008 with an initial capital of K1 billion. The share capital was later increased to K17.5 billion to comply with the Bank of Zambia capital requirement. Since then, the bank has invested an equivalent of K50 billion following the remittance into Zambia of US$10 million to facilitate its investment programme. The Bank commenced operations on August, 24th, 2009.

The bank projects to open eight branches in the next twelve months and a further three branches per year thereafter until 2013. It projects to engage about eighty staff in the first twelve months of operations. It also projects to create about two hundred jobs by the end of its expansion programme in 2013. The bank projects to engage two expatriates and has engaged a Zambian chief executive officer. The bank’s board of directors comprises one expatriate and five Zambian nationals.

Mr Speaker, Ecobank Zambia Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ecobank Transnational Incorporated (ETI) in Lome, Togo and operates in twenty-two African countries in West, Eastern and Southern Africa. Ecobank Transnational Incorporated was established as a regional banking group in 1988 and its shares are listed on the stock exchanges of Ghana, Ivory Coast and Nigeria. The rest of the share holdings are as follows:

 Shareholder Holding percentage
 
 Renaissance Direct Investment (Russian) 18.69
 BIDS (Regional Development Bank – ECOWAS) 6.21
 Ghana Social Security & National Insurance Trust 5.43
 Ecobank Transnational Incorporated 6.23
 Others 63.44
 Total 100

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, looking at the levels of investment from K1 billion to K17.5 billion and then K50 billion, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the source of this funding. Is all the money coming from the shareholders or they just borrow it?

Ms Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, although that was not clearly indicated in the question, this is a bank which has been long established and is operating in twenty-two other countries across Africa. I cannot give you the exact amount of money which was borrowed and so on. We have confidence in the fact that they are complying to our requirements. For banks which come from outside the country, there are due processes which the Bank of Zambia, as regulators, take into consideration, including engaging a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) in their area of jurisdiction so that they can ensure they have the background that is required to get quality investment.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

NUMBER OF GIRLS DEFILED BY THEIR BIOLOGICAL FATHERS

43. Mr Chongo (Mwense) (on behalf of Mr Chanda) (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Gender and Women in Development:

 (i) how many girls were defiled by their biological fathers from 2005 to 2009 in:

(a) Lusaka;
(b) Ndola;
(c) Livingstone;
(d) Choma; 
 (e) Mufulira; and

(ii) how many parents at (i) were arrested and successfully prosecuted.

The Deputy Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Changwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the cases that I am about to read out are recorded and regarded as incest and not defilement. Furthermore, let me inform the House that any other close blood relation intimate relationship with a female is, also, considered as incest.

District Year  Cases  Arrests  Convictions Pending 
    Reported      Investigations

Lusaka 2005-9  42  33  25  8
Ndola 2005-9  9  8  4  4
Kitwe 2005-9  7  7  5  2
Livingstone 2005-9  5  4  3  3
Choma 2005-9  1  1  -  -
Mufulira 2005-9  9  8  3  9 withdrawn

Mr Speaker, I would like the House to note that incest cases were those involving biological parents and are actually under reported. In addition, incest cases take a long time to investigate and most of them await investigations that sometimes spill over to the following year.

Mr Speaker, I also would like the House to note that the limited data from Mufulira, Choma, Livingstone, Kitwe and Ndola could be as a result of under reporting and withdrawn cases. The reality on the ground could be different. The Police Victim Support Unit officers have confirmed, through the Lusaka Central Police Victim Support Unit Office, that these are the available statistics.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, as the problem appears worrying, what measures to curb this scourge has the Government put in place, other than the avenue of the courts of law.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, the Government, through the Gender-in-Development Division and related ministries and other wings have embarked on serious sensitisation programmes, especially to address the issues of silence with which our Zambian culture has been grappling. Therefore, we are actually vigorously sensitising the public and also ensuring that the Victim Support Unit is decentralised to very low levels so that even the cases at the grassroots level can be addressed.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I think most of these incest cases are being withdrawn from the courts of law because most of these fathers are the bread winners. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures the Government has put in place to make sure that the mothers and children who are abused are supported, in a way, so that the education of the children is not disturbed and they do not lack food after their fathers have been jailed.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, as you are aware, this Government is actually propagating a development agenda that is going to ensure that the economic status of women is raised through various programmes. We have the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission and other small capital entrepreneurship projects for the women. However, some of these incest cases are not really because the fathers are the bread winners because we have cases where babies of two months or two years are defiled or there is incest that is going on between biological relations. However, we are aware that we need to raise the economic status of women and we have done quite well in that area because the economic index in the country clearly shows that a good number of women have actually risen through social mobility.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the community has been so vigorously sensitised that these cases are reported, but why is it that the statistics for Livingstone, Choma and Mufulira are low, in addition to her telling us that they are low because people are not reporting the cases? Why is that so?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, there are many factors at play and there would need to be a comprehensive statement to deal with this matter satisfactorily. Suffice to say that without the sensitisation that has been going on, the number of cases would actually have been higher than what we have reported.

As regards why in other places the statistics are low, I would attribute it to the sensitisation that we have given and sometimes, the under reporting in some places could be the reason there are high or low number of cases.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, incest is a very serious criminal offence, under what circumstances do the police accept to have a case withdrawn because it is not the person defiled who should be a complainant but the State.
 
Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the concern of the hon. Member, but there are laid down procedures on how these issues are dealt with in the Police Service. Given more time, we can come up with a detailed response. Nevertheless the procedures are followed as laid down.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister what is considered more severe between defilement and incest and why incest is only referred to in a case between a biological father and daughter.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, I would not say that any of the two is less severe than the other. As far as the Government is concerned, both are grave offences. As regards what the terminologies mean, I think the hon. Member can actually consult the Oxford Dictionary where the difference is clearly defined.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, studies have shown that some incest and defilement cases are as a result of the misunderstanding by some people who think that having sex with a minor is a cure for HIV/AIDS. At one point, the then hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services placed placards in many places in the country, showing that sex with a minor does not cure HIV/AIDS. These placards have since been defaced and cannot be read, but the hon. Minister is saying that sensitisation has continued.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Ask your question.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, could I know when the ministry will increase publicity on this matter so that people are made aware that sex with minors does not cure HIV/AIDS.

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, we are vigorously sensitising the people. I also would like to inform this House that we have gender sub-committees even at the district level. Part of their job description is to sensitise the people and work hand-in-hand with traditional leaders, alangizi and all other leaders in society …

Interruptions

Ms Changwe: … so that these issues are addressed. It is true that there is a notion that sex with a minor cures HIV/AIDS, but we have made strides in trying to explain that this is not so. I recall that Dr Vongo, who is the Chairperson of the Traditional Healers Association of Zambia, has, also, said that his association has gone flat out to inform its members at the grassroots level in all the districts that they should not propagate this message because it is wrong.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, apart from sensitisation, is this department not considering working with the Ministry of Justice to bring some legislation that would fast track the prosecution of these offenders and criminals so that they can be quickly put away?

Ms Changwe: Mr Speaker, as a co-ordinating department, we have been considering all of these issues, but we cannot give any assurance at this stage.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

NUMBER OF TEACHERS SENT TO LUNDAZI DISTRICT

44. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Education:

(i) why only one new teacher was allocated to Lundazi District in 2009 which has a poor teacher-pupil ratio of 1 to 69;

(ii) how many teachers were transferred from Lundazi District to other parts of the country in 2009; and

(iii) whether the transferred teachers at (ii) were all replaced.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, the actual teacher-pupil ratio for Lundazi District is 1 to 42. Lundazi District recruited only one teacher because only one school had a teacher-pupil ratio of higher than 1 to 56.9, which was the national average used for deployment of teachers in 2009.

A total of thirteen teachers were transferred from Lundazi District to other districts in the country, specifically, nine females and four males.

The replacement of teachers is a continuous process as and when vacancies occur. Therefore, all teachers who have been transferred will be replaced as soon as the payroll movements are effected.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, is the ministry aware that the teacher-pupil ratio for Lundazi District is below that obtaining in other districts in the province, and yet only one teacher was given to this district? What is the explanation for this?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for the question, but, like we have already stated, Lundazi is better placed than the other districts in the country. In fact, Lundazi has a teacher-pupil ratio of 1 to 42 while the average for the whole country is 1 to 56, which is the rationale we used in deploying teachers.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, according to the hon. Minister, the average national teacher-pupil ratio is 1 to 56.9. Is the hon. Minister confident that many pupils can properly be taught by one teacher? Can he confidently say that teachers can put in their best, teaching close to 60 pupils in one class?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, our intention is to bring the average national teacher-pupil ratio to about 1 to 40 so that we are able to provide quality education in the classroom. One of the issues that affect the distribution of teachers when we recruit them is the teacher-pupil ratio. This means that we must have statistics that are up to date. We have realised that there are some challenges we face with regard to recruitment because when we recruit new teachers to replace those who have been transferred to certain areas, the newly recruited teachers are, also, transferred after some time. 

For example, in Lundazi we said that about thirteen teachers were transferred. Currently, we have stopped transferring teachers because we want to clean up the payroll. We have realised that there are situations where teachers have been transferred, and yet we do not have these statistics. Therefore, we recruit or replace teachers, but do to have the right inform at the headquarters. We have suspended transfers until we clean up the payroll and are sure that in this area, this is the actual teacher-pupil ratio because then we would know how many teachers have been transferred and how many vacancies are available. In this case, when we consider deployment of teachers in that area, we will have the right teacher-pupil ratio.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

CONSTRUCTION OF POLICE RESIDENTIAL HOUSES IN ITEZHI-TEZHI

45. Mr Beene asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(i) when the Government would start constructing residential houses for police officers in Itezhi-tezhi District; and

(ii) what the total number of the planned houses above was.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The House will listen and pay attention.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Home Affairs has embarked on construction of residential accommodation for officers in the Zambia Police Service. The exercise has been made possible by the release of the capital project funds from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The first phase has commenced and is near completion. Itezhi-tezhi District will benefit from the programme in the ensuing phases.

The exercise has been made possible with the release of capital project funds by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. The first phase, which has commenced, is near completion. Itezhi-tezhi will benefit from the programme in the ensuing phases. So far, an audit has been done and funds permitting, we expect to construct sixty houses at Itezhi-tezhi.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister confirm to this august House and the country that the criteria of starting to build houses in old cities, leaving out a new district like Itezhi-tezhi is being biased.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, we are not being biased. The real reason is that the construction of police houses has not taken place for a long time, almost in all the districts. It is worse in terms of provincial headquarters and other big districts. We thought that we could start somewhere and these are the areas that we thought we could start with. We started with Chipata, Ndola and Livingstone because of the acute shortage of accommodation in those areas, but we do recognise the problem of accommodation in Itezhi-tezhi and this is why I have said funds permitting, we will consider constructing sixty houses there.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Would the hon. Minister be kind enough to indicate to the House how much is involved in this programme and how many houses are to be constructed in the current phase and not the phase he is referring to in which the sixty houses for Itezhi-tezhi will be considered. Would I know how many houses are being constructed and how much has been released as capital funds for this project?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I cannot give the exact figures of how much has been released. However, in terms of the numbers of houses that we are constructing for the benefit of the House, for the Eastern Province, we are constructing ninety-two houses; in Ndola, we are constructing 287 houses; in Livingstone, sixty-eight houses; and in Kasama, sixty houses. The average cost of these houses is about K160 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, I am concerned about the low level of priority that the Ministry of Home Affairs is giving to the construction of police houses in Itezhi-tezhi. Have you looked at the statistics of prisoners in the Southern Province which shows that 45 per cent of those who engage in stock theft come from rural districts such as Itezhi-tezhi? You need to align your priorities with the levels of crime in a particular area. Have you done that, hon. Minister?

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, we do recognise the problem of stock theft in the Southern Province. However, the criterion we are using, particularly in terms of constructing houses, is that we consider the current strength of the staffing levels in a particular area. Right now, Itezhi-tezhi has nineteen officers and we expect it to have a staff establishment of forty-five officers. We hope that once we recruit a lot of police officers, they will be able to help in combating crime. I only hope the situation will normalise, but the real problem is that we do not have adequate funds to construct these houses at all our police stations.

I thank you, Sir.

COMPLETION OF SCHOOLS IN LUAMPA CONSTITUENCY

46. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Education when the construction of the following basic schools in Luampa Parliamentary Constituency would be completed:

(a) Namasheshe;

(b) Chacha; and

(c) Milumbwa

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, the three projects were funded by the Western Province Provincial Administration, under the Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP). The ministry has requested the provincial administration to release additional funds to complete the projects.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Limata: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the Government is going to release the money because the project was started a long time ago, since 2006, to date?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, you will realise that we have had problems concerning our PRP projects in the whole country. However, as for these particular projects, we are discussing with the provincial administration so that the money can be released as quickly as possible. It is not only the Western Province that has such problems. We are trying to engage our colleagues in the provincial administration so that we can finish these projects as quickly as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

NUMBER OF COMMERCIAL FARMERS IN CHINSALI

47. Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali) asked the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives how many commercial farmers there were in Chinsali District as of January, 2009, and what crops they grew.

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Speaker, there were thirteen commercial farmers in Chinsali District as of January, 2009 and the crops that they grew are as shown in the table below:

Block/location No. of Farmers Crops and other enterprises

Chasosa  1   Soya beans, Game Ranching and livestock 
      Production
Chinsali Central 7   Maize, Cassava, Finger Millet, Groundnuts
      Beans and Rice
Matumbo  4   Jatropha, Maize, Groundnuts and Beans
Kaso   1   Maize and Beans

Total No. of
Farmers  13

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, most of the farmers in Chinsali are peasant farmers. What measures is the Government putting in place to ensure that the peasant farmers graduate into commercial farmers rather than giving them four pockets of fertiliser and two bags of maize seed?

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Speaker, we do recognise that the issue of supporting small-scale farmers has had its problems. The programme that supports small-scale farmers intends to provide farming subsidies. Our expectation is that since these small-scale farmers belong to co-operatives, the co-operatives should help put in place measures to improve on input acquisition so that they can complement the Government’s efforts. We believe that in so doing, they will be the talked-about graduation from being small-holder-farmers to middle-holder- farmers. Extra efforts by the framer’s organisations themselves have to be made.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, perhaps the hon. Minister could remind us what his ministry’s current definition of a commercial farmer is because we do not have a picture of who these people really are and what they do. Also, if it has taken this country 100 years to get to thirteen commercial farmers, how long does he think it will take to get to twenty-six farmers?

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, a commercial farmer is anybody who is able to grow more than twenty hectares.

With regard to how long it has taken, there is a mistaken notion, here, that the Government owns farms. Our duty is to create a conducive environment, particularly for the smaller-scale farmers to have their household food security. With time, as I have stated, our desire is to see that farmers’ groups and co-operatives grow enough food.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that the Government faces problems in trying to help small-scale farmers to graduate …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! I can hardly hear. Hon. Members, you are making too much noise.

The hon. Member for Namwala continue.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, is it not true that the critical reason the small-scale farmers fail to graduate is specifically that this Government has broken the linkages that connected the small-scale farmers to capital, distribution and extension services which used to exist from the time of independence up to the time that this Government took over power?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, many times in life, it is fashionable to praise the past and forget to see the progress that has been made.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Chituwo: Mr Speaker, it is true that we have continued to have difficulties with the small-holder farmer credit and market. We also work overtime because of the increase in the numbers of farmers, which makes us overstretch our extension services. It is also true that in the transition to a liberalised economy, the Government started to put in place a number of measures to liberalise the economy. This weakened the linkage between the Government and the farmers.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Member for Namwala should hold his fire because, with your permission, I will issue a comprehensive statement thereon. I am sure the statement will clarify most of the misunderstandings.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF A DAM ON LUBU RIVER

48. Mr C. Mulenga asked the Minister of Energy and Water Development whether the Government had any plans to construct a dam on Lubu River between Fonkofonko Bridge and Mweye Bridge to enable Chinsali Township residents and the surrounding areas to have access to adequate water for various purposes.

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Ms Lundwe): Mr Speaker, the Government has plans to build a dam on the Lubu River. This river has been identified as an alternative source of water for the Chinsali Township residents and the surrounding areas for various purposes. This is one of the sites earmarked for a full feasibility survey in the 2010 Budget.

I thank you, Sir.

TONNES OF COPPER EXPORTED BETWEEN JANUARY AND JUNE 2009

49. Mr Kambwili asked the Mines and Minerals Development how many tonnes of copper concentrates, copper ore and copper cathodes were exported between January and June, 2009 by the following mining companies:

(a) Mopani;

(b) Konkola;

(c) Lumwana;

(d) Luanshya;

(e) Chambishi; and

(f) Chibuluma.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, the mining companies listed in the question made the following exports of copper concentrates, copper ore and copper cathodes during the period under review:

Exports between January and June 2009

Name of Mine Copper   Copper Ore  Copper Cathodes
   Concentrate  (tonnes)   (tonnes)
   (tonnes)

Mopani        54,814
Konkola        74,930
Lumwana  50,000
Luanshya       -           -                   -
Chambishi  13,791
Chibuluma    2,325

The House may wish to know that during the period under review, Luanshya Copper Mines did not export either copper concentrates, copper ore or copper cathodes because China Non-Ferrous Metal Corporation only took over the mine on 24th June, 2009 and is yet to resume production.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the Government needs to create employment. Why is the Government exporting copper concentrates which are not a finished product, thereby creating jobs for people in other countries as opposed to compelling these mining companies to set up refineries and smelters so that jobs are created for our people?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, even a blind person can say, “I see” and a deaf person can say, “I hear” because this Government has made all the effort, as can be seen at the Chambishi Copper Smelter which is now operational. The hon. Member is on record as having resisted the Chinese investment in that smelter.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, what should be understood is that, now, we have three smelters which are operational in the country. Unfortunately for the Chingola Copper Smelter, it has had problems with its operations. I would like to inform the House that, as a Government, we are engaging Konkola Copper Mine (KCM) to resume operations at the Nkana Copper Smelter so that they can take up excess concentrates.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister assist me to appreciate the estimates for copper concentrates, cathodes and ore that the mines were intending to produce. He has given us the statistics of what they actually exported and produced. I would like to find out what they were intending to produce so that I am able to compare and see if there is any meaningful effort being made by the mining companies.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I know he is fully aware that it is a new question. However, I would like to state that what is indicated, here, in terms of concentrates, is not all the production from these mining companies because some of it was treated at the Chambishi Copper Smelter, Mufulira Copper Smelter and Nchanga Copper Smelter.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what legislative framework exists to compel mining companies that have been exporting concentrates to export finished cathodes instead, using the available facilities in the country.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is just simple arithmetic, for the hon. Member who is an engineer, that the Nchanga Copper Smelter can treat up to 300,000 metric tones. The Mufulira Copper Smelter can treat up to 300,000 metric tonnes and the Chambishi Copper Smelter up to 150,000 metric tonnes. All this adds up to 750,000 metric tonnes.

Mr Speaker, at the moment, we are projecting a production capacity of 650,000 metric tonnes which means we have enough capacity to treat the material. The only matter I would like to clarify is that the Nchanga Copper Smelter has had some problems, which we may call teething problems, as new technology has been employed in Nchanga.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister tell us, the constituents of where this Lumwana’s 50,000 tonnes copper concentrates and Chibuluma’s 113,000 tonnes concentrates are extracted, what the by-products were and how they are measured. What were the percentages of cobalt, gold and the other minerals we produce? How do you account for them?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to assure the hon. Member that the ores produced from these mines are not cobalt-bearing. In Zambia, we can only get cobalt from Nchanga, Nkana and Luanshya.

Mr Speaker, in any case, any producer of these concentrates would want to have the credit from the gold or selenium that may be produced.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, it is rumoured that concentrates from the Lumwana Mine constitute copper, cobalt, gold and selenium. How do we ensure that these concentrates are accounted for and revenue that goes to the National Treasury is therefrom generated?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the ores at the Lumwana Mine do not bear any cobalt. However, if there is any gold, we have in place systems which monitor the credits from products such as gold, selenium or silver, which may accrue to a particular company.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, allow me to ask a generic question. Can the hon. Minister assure the House that all is well in the mining sector?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Leakage!

Mr M. B. Mwale: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: And I thank the hon. Member for his follow-up question.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, when others were thinking it is all gloomy, we have the Luanshya Copper Mines which will start producing by December this year. Further, the copper prices have picked up to above US$5,000 per tonne. This is giving us the hope and inspiration that our mining industry will continue to be vibrant.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, looking at the amount of exports that have gone on, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development whether the Government has any policy on ensuring that there is some kind of value addition to the copper that is being exported so that more jobs are created.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this is why this Government, your working Government, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr M. B. Mwale: … has deliberately put in place systems such as setting up Multi-Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs) where we expect a number of these companies to set up value addition industries.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell this House and the nation whether it is optional for these mining companies to export concentrates or finished copper products such as cathodes or they are oing this because there is no capacity to refine and smelt these products?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this House legislated that concentrates that will be exported will attract a levy. There is no company that is in business that would want to export any concentrates if there is smelting capacity in the country. However, what has happened, in this country, is that with the problems that have been experienced at the Nchanga Copper Smelter, a number of companies have come back to the Government to ask that they export some of these concentrates because they need to have a revenue stream to finance their operations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, it looks like the hon. Minister is contradicting himself. He hinted on the fact that the Mufulira Copper Smelter is being underutilised. Can he say the reason why the Lumwana Mine cannot take its concentrates to Mufulira because the technology is there to process the materials from the Lumwana Mine?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member for Mwense that if he thought he would get something out of me over the Lumwana Mine, …

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: … I am sorry, he will not.

However, I would like to inform him that the Mufulira Copper Smelter is operating at full capacity and it is only the Nchanga Copper Smelter which has some problems, and has since been put under care and maintenance for about thirty days.

I thank you, Sir.

NUMBER OF DETAINEES WHO DELIVERED IN POLICE CELLS

50. Mrs Banda (Chililabombwe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs how many female detainees delivered in police cells from January 2006 to August, 2009, year by year.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that no female detainee delivered in the police cells from January, 2006 to August, 2009.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, I am doubtful about the response that has been given by the hon. Minister. Could he confirm …

Mr Chongo: On a point of order, Sir

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Carry on, we will hear you.

Mr Chongo: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to insinuate that I wanted something from him that he has not given to me regarding the Lumwana Mine? Could the hon. Minister put the record straight by clarifying what I wanted from him?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The point of order is being raised after the hon. Minister has sat down. However, I could not stop him because he was giving an official answer to one of your own questions.

My understanding of what he was saying, as he was using plain English, is that you wanted to trap him through your question, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … but he was smart enough to get out of your trap.

Laughter

Mr Munaile: Long live, Mr Speaker!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chililabombwe may continue.

Mrs Banda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister telling the truth because between January and September this year, there were reports in the newspapers about a female detainee who delivered in the police cells in Kasama? Can he dispute this?

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister is free to dispute that statement.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, indeed, there was a report about a woman who allegedly gave birth in the police cells in Kasama. However, the truth is that a woman was detained after she tortured her step son. The Victim Support Unit decided to detain her because she was uncompromising.

The House may wish to know that the son was bleeding and a lot of other things happened. The police were trying to get the details on why she did that to her step child, but she was uncompromising. As a result, the female police officer on duty decided to detain her so that she could give reasons for abusing her step child. In the process, she developed some labour pains.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: When she reported that she had some labour pains, the police officers removed her from the police cells.

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Mangani: She was assisted by female police officers and delivered in an office within the police station.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members stood up.

Mr Speaker: All of a sudden this question has become very interesting.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Why?

Mr Mukanga: I would like find out from the hon. Minister what emergency facilities exist for expectant detainees.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that women who are advanced in their pregnancies are not supposed to be detained. However, if they have committed a serious offense, such as murder, the normal practice is to take them to the hospital under guard.

With regard to the case in hand, the woman was not expected to give birth …

Interruptions

Mr Mangani: … at that time. In due course, she developed some labour pains, but they quickly assisted her to give birth and she was later taken to the hospital for further medical attention. The fact is that she never gave birth in the police cells.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Let me guide the House. This House is about to debate an individual who is most likely listening to this debate live. The House must respect the rights of this person and avoid embarrassing her any further.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: My understanding or our understanding is that the hon. Minister, as he has already hinted, will ensure that situations such as this one will be handled properly and in hospital. Let us leave it at that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

EXPECTED PROFIT BY MINING COMPANIES

51. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) how much profit, after tax, each of the following companies made as at December, 2008:
 
(i) Konkola Copper Mine Plc; and

(ii) Mopani Copper Mines Plc

(b) what the expected profit for each of the companies would be in 2009; and

(c) whether the companies above intended to retrench employees in 2009, and, if so, how many.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, the companies listed in the question did not make profit by December, 2008, but they made losses as follows:

(a) Konkola Copper Mines Plc made a loss of US $164.73 million; and

(b) Mopani Copper Mines Plc made a loss of US $171.3 million.

Mr Speaker, the projection for each of the companies in 2009 is as follows:

(a) Konkola Copper Mines (KCM) Plc expects to make a profit of US$190 million;

(b) Mopani Copper Mines Plc expects to make a loss of US$32 million.

Sir, the House may wish to know that KCM has retrenched 1,422 employees since January, 2009 to date and so far, the company has no plans to retrench any more employees.

Mr Speaker, Mopani Copper Mines Plc has retrenched a total of 1,793 employees since January, 2009 to date and the company has no intention of retrenching any more employees during the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, Konkola Copper Mines Plc has started employing people on contract jobs and is avoiding permanent ones. Is the Government aware of this and if it is, what is it doing about it?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I have a problem answering his question because we know that in the mining industry, contractual jobs have always existed. Without any proper explanation from the hon. Member, I am a bit lost.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, considering the number of people who were retrenched because of the effects of the global crunch, are there any plans to re-employ the people who were retrenched now that we hear that the prices of copper have risen?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, this Government is engaging the mining companies on the matter of re-employing the employees who were retrenched. For example, Mopani Copper Mines Plc has already re-engaged twenty-seven employees and we are looking forward to KCM Plc following suit.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, one of the answers associated with this question was about profit and a figure like US$120 million for KCM was given to this House. Is the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development not aware that by encouraging these mining companies to export concentrates, cobalt, uranium and gold profits are not included when they declare the profits? This means the local Zambian people are denied of taxes that are due to them and which they need to develop this country. This, therefore, only serves to impoverish this country.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Namwala for, particularly, his concern about the revenue that accrues to the Government. I made it very clear in my response that the Government does not encourage the export of concentrates. However, because of the problems that are being experienced at the Nchanga Smelter, some of the mining companies have had to seek consent from the Government to export some concentrates because they need revenue for their operations.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, in answering part (a), of the question, the hon. Minister has given us the losses that were recorded by KCM and Mopani Copper Mines Plc. Konkola Copper Mine has a higher production capacity than Mopani Copper Mines Plc, and yet when it comes to losses, …

Mr Speaker: Order! What is your question?

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, how is it that the losses recorded by Mopani Copper Mines Plc. are much higher than those for Konkola Copper Mines Plc. that has a higher production capacity? Is the hon. Minister not seeing that there is window dressing in the manner that these losses are declared?
 
Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member’s follow-up question, indeed, shows concern regarding the operations of the mining companies in our country.

Mr Speaker, what has to be understood is that the mining operations are different. Underground operations are more expensive than open pit operations. Secondly, we have to take the Nchanga Smelter into account that also produces copper from the Terlimis dams and this is yet another cheaper source of copper. Mopani Copper Mines Plc has mainly under ground operations which are at depth and these are very expensive. We have to take advantage of claims of scale if they are to be profitable.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.{mospagebreak}

OIL AND GAS RESERVES IN PROVINCES

52. Mr Mwapela (Kalabo Central) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development how much oil and gas reserves were in the following provinces:

(i) Eastern;

(ii) North-Western; and

(iii) Western.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, the preliminary exploration conducted, so far, by my ministry, through the Geological Survey Department, has indicated that there is potential for oil and gas extraction in the provinces listed in the question. However, there is a need to undertake detailed exploration to the drilling stage in order to determine if there are commercial deposits of oil and gas. Following this detailed exploration which is to be carried out by the private sector, the quality of oil and gas and size of the deposits will be determined.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwapela: Mr Speaker, when will the Government set up a steady national oil firm to regulate the activities of the industry?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, there is a provision, through the Acts which this House passed, to set up a National Petroleum Oil Company. However, this time, it would be premature to set up a company as we are yet to find the existence of oil.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, we are aware that plastic oil did some work in Chama District in the Eastern Province. Can the hon. Minister confirm whether the work which they did had something to do with oil and gas availability in the district?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to confirm that Placid Oil undertook work to explore for oil and gas in the district.

Mr Speaker, I would like to take advantage of this opportunity to inform the House that the ministry has, now, advertised blocks in Northern Luangwa to invite bidders who can take up the task of exploring for oil and gas.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, in view of the indication of attractive reserves alluded to by the hon. Minister and noting that Abydex is already being indicated in the press, why is the Government not creating an enabling environment in terms of facilities such as roads to potential areas so as to attract serious investors?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, it is the concern of this Government to ensure that most of our constituencies are accessible by road. It is also part of the Government’s programme to see to it that our roads are worked on. This hardworking Government has provided equipment throughout the provinces so that our roads can be worked on.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out how far the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development has gone in the procurement of contractors to drill the oil and gas in the respective areas mentioned.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, at the moment, the advertisements are running in the press and will close by 7th November, 2009. Thereafter, we shall chart a road map on how to proceed.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

NUMBER OF RECRUITED TEACHERS FOR RURAL SCHOOLS

53. Mrs Musokotwane asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many teachers were recruited for rural schools from 2007 to 2008;

(b) of the number at (a), how many failed to take up their positions as of 31st December, 2008; and

(c) of the number at (b), how many had been posted to Katombola Parliamentary Constituency.  

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Education embarked on a teacher recruitment exercise to address the shortage of teachers in schools, with emphasis in rural schools where the pupil-teacher ratio is high.

Mr Speaker, in 2007, out of the 5,000 teachers who were deployed, 2,837 went to rural schools. This translates into 56.74 per cent of the total recruitment, broken down as 1,701 males and 1,188 females.

In 2008, out of the 5,000 teachers who were deployed, 2,902 went to rural areas which translates into 58.84 per cent of the total number of teachers recruited. This is broken down as 1,714 males and 1,188 females.

Province   2007    2008

Central    365    340
Copperbelt   321    254
Eastern    295    340
Luapula   256    266
Lusaka    212    245
North-Western   225    315
Northern   411    473
Southern   376    267
Western   276    302

Total    2,837    2,902

Mr Speaker, the total number of 564 teachers who failed to take up their positions for various reasons for the period under review is broken down as follows:

Year    Number of Teachers  Percentage

2007    250    8
2008    314    10.8

Mr Speaker, the total number of teachers who were posted to Katombola Parliamentary Constituency from 2007 to 2008 is as follows:

Year    Number of Teachers

2007    13
2008    83

 Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, has the Government got any plans to post teachers to schools before they finish training as was done in the First Republic so that by the time they finish training, they know which district and the name of the school they will go to? This will ensure that by the time they finish their training, issues of whether schools have teachers or not do not arise. When will the Government bring this method back?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, it is true that, at the moment, we are not recruiting from colleges even though this is our vision. This is because we had quite a good number of teachers who were not recruited. However, I am sure that in a year’s time, we will be able to recruit from the colleges.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

COMPREHENSIVE LAND SURVEY COUNTRYWIDE

54. Mr Mwansa asked the Minister of Lands when the Ministry would undertake a comprehensive countrywide land survey to ensure that people in rural areas start obtaining title deeds which could be used to access funding.

The Minister of Lands (Mr Daka): Mr Speaker, conducting a comprehensive countrywide survey entails that the local authorities initially carry out comprehensive physical planning in areas under their jurisdictions within the approved district boundaries because no survey can be conducted without prior physical planning.

At the moment, rural areas receive property survey services through provincial survey offices upon request by clients.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, it is quite clear that there has been no co-ordination between the Ministry of Lands and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. This is the only programme that will enable and empower our people in rural areas to access funding for their farming and other businesses. When will the Government begin this programme?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member, who is also a councillor, together with the local authorities, the councils, should assist us. When the local authorities plan, the provincial survey offices are requested to carry out further work on the plans. I, therefore, appreciate that there has not been proper co-ordination between the Ministry of Lands and the Ministry of Local Government and Housing.  However, because the hon. Member is a councillor and hon. Member of Parliament, he can assist in enticing the local authorities to ensure that they carry out local planning in their districts.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, part of the rationale behind your 1995 Land Act was precisely that local people could obtain title deeds to their land and then raise money. Has the hon. Minister any idea how many small-scale farmers, because we know there are many large-scale farmers, have managed to acquire title deeds to their land and consequently  to borrow money from the banks?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, that question the hon. Member for Lusaka Central has asked is very important.

Sir, the hon. Member must realise that in order for us to carry out a survey, we need authority because there is customary and what is referred to as State land. We must have authority from the chiefs to go to traditional areas or customary land. It is important that the small-scale farmers obtain title deeds.

Mr Speaker, as we have said, title deeds are customer or individual driven. When those are requested, the ministry will be there to issue them. We have a charter that stipulates that title deeds are supposed to be given within fourteen days of application.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister knows that they have a timeframe of fourteen days within which they are to issue title deeds, could the hon. Minister admit that there is gross inefficiency at your ministry when it comes to issuance of title deeds and what steps are you going to take to ensure that there is efficiency because we know that files are piling up on the desk of your Commissioner of Lands?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I do agree with the hon. Member for Chasefu that there is some delay in complying to that charter, but we are doing everything possible to ensure that there is efficiency.

  I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister indicate to us under what law the Government is compelled to request permission of traditional leaders for them to conduct a survey of any kind including a survey on ownership of land .Which law compels his Government to seek such permission?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member of Parliament who has asked a very important question should realise that the Government works hand-in-hand with traditional rulers. Land is classified as State and customary. Therefore, there is no way the Government can ignore traditional rulers in this situation.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Member for Kabwata to listen. The survey the hon. Member he is asking about has already been carried out, but what we are talking about is individual surveys prior to issuance of a title deed. The 1958 maps show that the whole country has been surveyed. Unless, the hon. Member is ignorant thereof.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

REHABILITATION OF MUSHOTA POLICE CELLS

55. Dr Chishya (Pambashe) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) when the cells at Mushota Police Post would be rehabilitated; and

(b) when water and sanitary facilities would be provided to the residences at the police post.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Home Affairs has noted …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I had just started saying I wish to state that the Ministry of Home Affairs has noted, with concern, that some police cells countrywide need to be rehabilitated as they are in a state of disrepair. The scenario is true for cells at Mushota Police Post in Kawambwa District. To this effect, the ministry has embarked on rehabilitation and extension of police cells so that detainees are guaranteed a reasonable stay in the cells.

However, due to budgetary constraints and other competing needs, not all police cells could be worked on at the same time. As a result, works are carried out in phases, as and when funds are available.

I wish to inform the House that the budget for cell rehabilitation in 2009 …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We are not listening.

Can the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mangani: … is K150 million. This small amount, against so many needs, can only manage very little. I am optimistic that the Mushota Police Post will benefit from cell rehabilitation funds in the ensuing phase.

As indicated in (a) above, when it comes to sanitation in police formations, many areas countrywide are hard-hit by poor sanitary conditions. Both sewer and water reticulation systems are in a deplorable state.

Under the Poverty Reduction Programme (PRP), the Ministry of Homes Affairs has embarked on a programme of overhauling water reticulation and sewer systems in some affected police formation camps.

Again, due to budgetary constraints the programme is undertaken in phases. As I did mention earlier on Mushota Police Post and officers’ quarters will benefit from this programme in the ensuing phases.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister assure the people of Pambashe that the Government can provide material and financial support if at all the local community can organise themselves to construct the police post and residential houses for police officers.

Mr Mangani: Mr Speaker, yes, indeed, if we had all the resources, we could embark on such programmes. The difficulties that we have is that we have limited resources. As I have indicated to you, Sir, we have only K150 million to rehabilitate the police cells countrywide. Therefore, through the efforts of community and, indeed, through the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe, we will manage to construct a police post or even a house for a police office. The only commitment which I can make is to send you officers so that they can occupy those houses or use the facilities that we have worked on.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

_______

MOTIONS

MOTION OF THANKS

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, when business was suspended on Friday, I was saying that the country is experiencing a lot of problems because the Government has failed to explain a number of issues to our people.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Sir, I was talking about the National Constitution Conference (NCC). When the President came to this House, he announced that the NCC will, only, sit for four months and so the people know that the NCC will only sit up to December. However, come December, our colleagues will fail to explain to our people exactly the extension of four months by the President. Then we will have a problem.

Secondly, Mr Speaker, Statutory Instrument No. 52 of 2009, signed by the President, indicates that the NCC will sit for ten months. What does that mean? Our colleagues on your right, Sir, must clearly explain this to the people out there. Otherwise, in December, we will have problems.

Hon. Government Members: Aah, why?

Mr D. Mwila: I want to tell you that there is a misunderstanding here.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr D. Mwila: I am referring to the Statutory Instrument which was signed by the President. I am not talking from without.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Let me read it out to you. Statutory Instrument No. 52, 2009, (3) says:

“The duration of the Conference is hereby extended for a further period of ten months from the date of expiry of the period specified in Section 22 of the Act.”

Hon. Government Member: Continue! Tell us! Continue!

Mr D. Mwila: Further, Mr Speaker, it says:

“Provided that the period of ten months shall not include public holidays and the time during which the National Assembly is sitting.”

Hon. Government Members: What is wrong with that?

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Yes! Yes!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Let us give the hon. Member a chance to debate.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Members on your right should not look as if they are clever today because tomorrow, they will face the public.

Hon. Government Members: How?

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: There are two issues here. It is not clear which period is referred to on the issue of four months. It is from this time to when?

Ms Changwe: Iwe!

Mr D. Mwila: The ten months we are talking about does not specify the period it will start and when it will end. They have to explain.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I have not committed any crime by advising them. The people will rise against them because public funds are being used in this process.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Billions of kwacha have been spent.

Interruptions

Ms Lundwe: Iwe, taulyako!

Mr D. Mwila: You should not be blinded when you are enjoying.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the people of Zambia are the owners of this money and they have to know when the NCC will conclude. Not only that, Mr Speaker, we have to know the roadmap.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is only one person debating.

Mr D. Mwila: It is very important that we know the roadmap. Whether the current Government has stuck to the initial announcement …

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: … which was made by our late President, Mr Levy Mwanawasa.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: That is what I am saying.

Thirdly, they have to tell us whether the Constitution will be ready before 2011.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: They have to tell us if it will be ready by 2011.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

He is the only one debating.

Mr D. Mwila: I am speaking …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

The hon. Member on the Floor is the one debating, at the moment, and so the hon. Members on my right should listen because they are setting a precedent.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes!

The Deputy Chairperson: Next time one of you is debating, there will be this kind of noise and it will be a problem to control it. Let us give him a chance to debate.

Continue, please.

Mr D. Mwila: The question is: are we going to use the Constitution in 2011? Those are the answers our colleagues are supposed to give us. We are not supposed to be guessing.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, talking about the sale of the Zambia Telecommunications Company (Zamtel), our colleagues on your right must be reminded that this property does not belong to them but the Zambians.

Mr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: We have agreed to the idea of selling off some shares. Yes. However, what we are disputing is the sell of 75 per cent shares to foreign hands. We cannot allow 75 per cent shares to be held by foreign hands.

Mr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: The Government must review this matter.

In fact, when they decide to sell ZAMTEL, our colleagues are supposed to tell us how much this asset is worth.

Interjections

Mr D. Mwila: They cannot keep it to themselves because that is not their property.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, they have to come to this House and inform us about the companies that are bidding. How much will those companies buy the shares at? We are supposed to know these details.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Member: Who are they?

Mr D. Mwila: The hon. Minister has indicated that he cannot disclose this information to us. He is not in order, Mr Speaker. He must come to us and tell us how much ZAMTEL is worth.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr D. Mwila: Why are they doing it secretly? Why do they want to sell ZAMTEL in the night?

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the pact is coming.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr D. Mwila: If they make a mistake, we shall reverse the decision to sell.

Hon. Opposition Members: Mr Speaker, our colleagues have to involve all the stakeholders.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: The political parties and NGOs.

Ms Changwe: Aah! NGOs?

Mr V. Mwale: The devil is in the detail! NGOs!

Mr D. Mwila: They have to get advice from all the stakeholders I have mentioned. Failure to this, when the pact comes into power, it will arrest all the people who will sell ZAMTEL at night.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Mwila!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the Hon. Mbewe is below the age of forty. He found ZAMTEL …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not be personal, but debate issues.

You may continue, please.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, at that time, no one will be acquitted …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: …because things will be different. The leadership will be different.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Therefore, it is a reminder to our colleagues to listen to us.

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Finally, the other issue I wish to talk about is on the windfall tax. When the copper price was at US$3,000 per metric tonne, the mining companies were making a profit. We have said that windfall tax can only be paid when the price of copper is at $5,000 per metric tonne and above.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, I was talking about the donors not giving us money because our colleagues on your right are perceived to be corrupt.

Mrs J. M. Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: That is why they cannot give us any money. Therefore, we are requesting them to bring back the windfall tax …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: … so that the mining companies can pay and our people benefit.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to remind them, again, that the pact is coming.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Please, open your eyes and ears.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Otherwise, if you commit an offence, you will not be acquitted.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this very important Motion on the speech by His Excellency the President.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Sir, this …

Hon. Members: Speech!

Mr Mbewe: … speech is very educative and focussed.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, for those hon. Members who are saying that the speech is hollow, I would request that they go for examination at Chainama Hills Mental Hospital.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: Mwila!

Mr Mbewe: Sir, this speech has made all the Zambians focus on the development of our country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, this is one of the best speeches delivered in this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, even if the pact and the rest are against this speech publicly, behind doors, they are praising and supporting it.

Mr Lubinda murmuring.   

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, this speech is meant for all Zambians …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Lubinda, do not engage the hon. Member on the Floor.

Mr Lubinda murmuring.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am advising you to stop, but you have continued to murmur. What do you want the Chair to do?

Hon. Members: Chase him!

The Deputy Chairperson: Will the hon. Member on the Floor, please continue?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, all well-meaning Zambians will agree with me that the speech, which was delivered, here, is focussed and this can be seen by what the MMD Government has done.

Mr Speaker, if you think back, you will appreciate that all the speeches which were delivered to this House had all the things contained in them implemented. The people on your left cannot challenge me for not having received the “Keep Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign” vehicles …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: All the hon. Members on the left received them. To show that this Government is very serious about development, all the districts have received hearses.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the MMD Government is very serious about development. On mobile health services, we are going to deliver and, in any case, the people in the rural areas are happy about them. Those who are against the speech of the President are retrogressive and do not want Zambians to progress, but instead, want to draw them fifty years back. We are no longer in the colonial days. What Zambians want is to move forward and to achieve this, we need to support each other.

Mr Speaker, we are not here to play around or make jokes, but to do serious business which is to support the Government of the day because they are the people with the money. What we need from the people on the left is their support and good advice.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Their advice is welcome. We welcome criticism as long as it is constructive. Sometimes, we pretend that we are not taking their advice, but we listen because this is a listening Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the Government is working by making sure that we are focussed and moving in the right direction. We are not going to be controlled by the British. We are controlling ourselves. Whether you are in the Opposition or in Government, the mission is the same. We want development and good life for our people. It does not save any good to criticise the Government by going to the media to influence some donors not to bring money to the country because by doing so, we are killing ourselves since we fish from the same pond.

Mr Speaker, I urge those with the tendency of criticising in the hope of destroying the current Government that they are wasting their time. This Government is serious, focussed and is taking Zambia to very high heights. Those who think that in 2011 they will be on this side of the House are cheating themselves.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: The Zambian people will give us another mandate because we are doing very well and they have no reason to get rid of us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, let me remind those who are talking about the NCC that we invited them to attend and that the doors are still open for them to come. They should not be throwing stones from outside and yet the door is open for them to be part of the group. A look at the current Constitution will make one realise that those who have not attended the NCC have “sabograted” the law …

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: … and must be arrested.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would like to say that the pact has reasonable and learned hon. Members who should persuade hon. Members, who have failed to come to the NCC, to do so. We are humbly asking them to come because, in the pact, we have people who are learned and who reason. If they do not, I am sure that they will be shot in the back.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, to those who are talking about the sale of ZAMTEL being done in the dark, I would like to say that this is a transparent Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There are several points of order, but you do not just shout “point of order” whilst seated. If you want to raise a point of order, you know the rules. Do not raise a point of order whilst seated.

Could the hon. Member continue, please?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, we are a transparent Government and our deeds can be seen. We do not do business during the night, but in the day. Those who do business at night always get false information because of the darkness. In the night, wrong things happen and during daytime, right things happen. Therfore, as a Government, we do things during the day. We have advertised the sale of ZAMTEL and I find no reason somebody should allege, on the Floor of the House, that the business of ZAMTEL is being conducted in the night. I refute such information because that is not correct. We are a transparent Government which does business during the day.

Mr Speaker, I would like to say that some people on your left are reasonable but others are unreasonable.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I am asking those who are reasonable to educate those who are unreasonable. We know those who are unreasonable.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: We even know those who are geniuses and we would like them to assist those unreasonable ones, in the name of God.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I rise to challenge Hon. V. Mwale who issued a statement that those who do not agree with him should rise …

Mr V. Mwale: I have not said anything like that.

Mr Mwiimbu: Sorry, I am talking about Hon. Mbewe. Mr Speaker, I rise to challenge him.

Mr Speaker, I would like to take further the debate made by my colleague, Hon. D. Mwila, on the NCC. It is embarrassing for those of us who are participating in the NCC because of the statements made by the Government.

Hon. Members: Resign!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, some of us genuinely went to the NCC with a view to charting the constitutional course of this country forward, but I am being challenged that we should resign if we want. I can tell you that time will come when we will do that.

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, as my colleague indicated, some of us who are there, are prudent and reasonable, other than those who are failing to reason and see that this Statutory Instrument is full of contradiction and has no vision for the NCC.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it is a matter of public knowledge that the President of the Republic of Zambia has extended the NCC for ten months, excluding the days when Parliament is sitting, public holidays and weekends. What does that mean?

Hon. Opposition Members: One year.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, it means that the NCC is going to sit up to 2011. I also would like to state, without fear of any contradiction, that this statutory instrument does not actually need retrospective commencement. It was issued in August and it therefore, entails that the ten months will run from August, 2009 and not from the date given in the contradictory statement that has been made by the Government that it is running from April. It is very clear. I challenge any one of them to tell me where it is indicated that the commencement started from 1st of April, 2009.

Interruptions

Ms Lundwe: Come and see me.

Mr Mwiimbu: If he is challenging me, let him tell me …

Hon. Opposition Member: Now.

Mr Mwiimbu:  … now.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Some people in the House are becoming really unbecoming. When somebody is debating, it is not alright to challenge them to the extent of saying come and see me and so on. That is very disturbing. Let us be gentle and listen to the arguments of others. If you want to say something to the contrary, then counter the argument when your opportunity comes. We must know that it is not only us, here, listening to each other, but the people oute there also want to hear what we are saying. Therefore, let us give each other a chance.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, unfortunately, the truth cannot be contradicted. I am speaking on a point of truth and law. I was saying that this statutory instrument does not refer to any date in April. It refers to a date in August. It is effective from the month of August, excluding the days Parliament is sitting and public holidays. As I indicated earlier, this MMD Government has no intention of having a new Constitution before 2011.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: They have no intention, whatsoever, of doing so. You can even tell from the debates that arise from the NCC that there is no intention, whatsoever, by the Government to have a new constitution in place by 2011.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, on the issue of ZAMTEL, the nation has been speaking through their hon. Members of Parliament, other leaders in the public arena and non-governmental organisations (NGOs) are condemning the process of privatising ZAMTEL, but that not-listening Government does not want to listen. They went ahead to award a contract to RP Capital without following the requisite tender process as provided for by the law.

Mr Muyanda: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: Why are they doing that? Why should they want to sale a public asset through dubious processes? This asset is for the people of Zambia, it is not for the MMD. When they came to this House, they informed us that RP Capital had no obligation to provide financial services to the Government. They are misleading the nation. They have gone against their word, which is usual for them. They do not find it strange to go against their word. The Zambian people are listening to what I am saying. You are the ones who told us, on the Floor of this House, that what some people were saying regarding ZAMTEL was not the truth and you were claiming to be telling the truth. It has come to our knowledge that you were not candid in your deliberations and in the information you gave the House on the process of selling of ZAMTEL.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to inform you that the Patriotic Front(PF)/United Party for National Development (UPND) Pact …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … will not let this matter pass without challenging it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Get it that from me, we are not going to allow a public asset to be sold under dubious circumstances. We are not going to allow that. This asset is for everyone.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes, not ba Shikapwasha.

Mr Mwiimbu: If it has to be sold, it must be sold in the interest of the nation and that is what we want. We want the Zambians to have the majority of the ZAMTEL shares.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what the Zambians are crying for.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I also would like to state that we have heard that even the current formal process which we are undertaking regarding the sale of ZAMTEL is just a camouflage to cover what is happening. You have already undertaken the sale of ZAMTEL under the table.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: That is what is being said outside the House.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Where?

Mr Mwiimbu: It is up to you to clear that allegation.

Hon. Opposition Member: We shall lay you on the Table.

Mr Mwiimbu: It is up to you.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Mwale indicated that we are all proud that we have …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hon. Mbewe.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hon. Mbewe said that we are all proud that we have received the hearses. I am not a proud person to have received a hearse for my area.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: I, as a Member of Parliament from Monze Central, plan for the living and not for the dead. We would have supported you if you had bought ambulances for all the constituencies in Zambia because that would have been prudent. It is actually not prudent on the part of the Government to buy hearses when the people of this country require ambulances and adequate medical services which the Government is failing to provide.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I shudder to think what sort of Government this is that sits and plans for the dead, instead of planning for the living or future of its people.

Mr Akakandelwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member seems to be arguing that people do not die.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Mr Akakandelwa: He is failing to acknowledge …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What is your point of order?

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, is he in order to suggest that there should be no dignified burial for people, after all, he, himself, is going to die …

Laughter

Mr Akakandelwa: … and when he dies, how is he going to be carried?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, I think that the hon. Member on the Floor will take note of that point of order as he debates.

Continue hon. Member, please.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to state, without any fear of any contradiction, that the people of a certain constituency in theWestern Province are lacking representation.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: If a Member of Parliament can rise and start agitating for the Government to only particularly plan for the dead instead of saving lives, then there is something definitely wrong in the planning of the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwiimbu: … and that of the hon. Member of Parliament who has raised an issue on my debate.

Mr Speaker, the speech that was made by His Excellency the President, on the Floor of this House, was uninspiring. It lacked the vision that all of us, especially your Members of Parliament who belong to the pact …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … look forward to. I expected the President to address the issue …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze in order to state, in this House, that there are hon. Members of Parliament who belong to an illegal organisation called the pact?

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I need your ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson:  The Chair will not make a ruling on that point of order because the hon. Member is expressing an opinion on what he sees as a pact, so to say. Therefore, let him do so.

Hon. UPND and PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, for the sake of those who do not understand what a pact is, it is an understanding …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: … between two or more people on matters of common interest. In this instance, it is an understanding between the PF and the UPND so that they can serve this country better than the way the MMD is doing.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Therefore, there is no need to apologise for talking about the pact. We are very proud to belong to the pact.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I expected the President to deal with issues pertaining to livestock in this country, in the interest of the cattle-rearing people of Western, Southern, Central and Eastern provinces. The people of the Western Province have been told by His Excellency the President and the Government to stay with their animal diseases and that the Government shall establish cattle disease free areas elsewhere because they have failed to take into account the livelihood of the people of this province. This also entails that the Government is not going to tackle the livestock diseases in the Southern Province and likewise the swine fever which has been in the people of the Eastern Province for more than fifty years.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: The people of the Eastern Province cannot export pork due to the failure by this Government to address the animal diseases in the area. We thought that the Government was going to address that problem, but they have lamentably failed to do so.

Mr Imasiku: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

However, before I allow the hon. Deputy Minister to raise that point of order, I would like to urge hon. Members to try as much as possible not to debate through points of order so that we can move forward as fast as possible.

The hon. Deputy Minister can go ahead with his point of order.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member in order to suggest that the Government has not put in place measures to control animal diseases? The President, on page 26 of his speech, said that he planned to strengthen the disease control programme by creating disease control zones and that the Government is, also, going to establish breeding centres. Is the hon. Member, therefore, in order to suggest that the President said nothing regarding the control of diseases?

The Deputy Chairperson: If that is the suggestion he is making, then obviously from what you have said, he is not in order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Monze may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was saying that the people of Liuwa will continue wallowing in poverty because the Government is not concentrating on curbing animal diseases in the Western Province. The Government will take the programmes mentioned in the President’s Speech to areas where there is neither cattle nor diseases. The Government is saying that it is not going to be concerned with areas where there are diseases and the people of Liuwa are expecting that the hon. Member of Parliament for that area should raise that issue with the Government.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I expected the President of the Republic of Zambia to address issues pertaining to local government. We should all be aware that the local government system is the nearest organ to the people.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised despite my advice.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I think it has been years since I last stood and raised a point of order. Is the hon. Member, who is speaking so eloquently and constructively, in order to suggest that the Western Province has no representation in this House? I need your serious ruling because he is saying that in this House, the people from the Western Province just sit and drink water and tea during the breaks.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sure he will touch on that aspect as he debates.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Shakafuswa for that comment because he has noted that there is no proper representation from Liuwa.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I was stating that I expected the Republican President to address the issues that are affecting the local government system in Zambia. I am sure we are all aware that this system is the closest Government to the people. The local government system is supposed to provide clean drinking water, good roads and all the other amenities that are required by our people. Alas, the President, instead of addressing those issues, decided, in his wisdom, to completely destroy the local government system in this country.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that the majority of the local councils in this country thrive on crop levy. We are aware that, by decree, the President has already given instructions for councils to stop collecting crop levy despite the fact that no law has been put in place. This, therefore, means that most councils, including small ones, that were managing to pay workers’ salaries will not do so. They will, also, not be able to provide minimum services. The Government has not told us how it will salvage the situation.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members on my left, the debater is on the same side as you, but you are disturbing him.

Mr Mwiimbu: The hon. Member for Lundazi indicated on the Floor of this House …

Hon. Government Member: There is no hon. Member for Lundazi.

Mr Mwiimbu: I am referring to Hon. C. K. Banda. I am sorry, but I cannot remember his actual constituency.

Mr Mooya: Chasefu.

Mr Mwiimbu: Yes, he is from Chasefu. He categorised the levies that most of the councils in the Eastern Province collect which are a major source of income for them. By the stroke of a pen, that irresponsible Government has taken away the revenue of those councils. All the councils in the Western Province will be on their knees because they will have no funds. We are aware that this Government has not been providing any funding and has been advising the councils to be innovative. The councils have been innovative by coming up with crop levies. You are not protecting the farmers, you are protecting the unscrupulous briefcase businessmen. Those are the ones who pay the crop levy to the councils. It is not the farmers …

Hon. UPND Members: And the traders.

Mr Mwiimbu: The actual farmers, who toil, do not pay the crop levy. It is the multi-national companies that pay the crop levy. You have, again, protected the strong at the expense of the weak. Why are you so irresponsible? Anyway, your irresponsibility will come to an end - is it sixteen months from now in 2011?

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Mwiimbu: Now that we are approaching the rainy season, we are going to have cholera, again, due to the irresponsibility of the Government on your right side. They are not prudent in their management.

I hear they have bought hearses because they expect our people to die in numbers.

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: You are chasing our people.

Mr Speaker, I know that my colleagues have been condemning pacts, but they should realise that pacts have always existed in this country. At the time of independence, the African National Congress (ANC) and United National Independence Party (UNIP) entered into a pact to gain independence. In 2008, the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) had a pact with the United Liberal Party (ULP), UNIP and the Forum for Democracy and Development (FDD). Unfortunately, you ditched your colleagues because you do not honour pacts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I can assure you that we shall honour our pact.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Western Province (Mr Mufalali): Mr Speaker, let me take this opportunity to thank you for giving me a chance to debate on the President’s Official Opening of Parliament Speech on Friday, 18th September, 2009.

Mr Speaker, the speech by His Excellency the President is a guiding factor in the running of the day-to-day economy of our country. There is a lot to debate. If we take all its contents, it will take us the whole of September and October to debate.

Mr Speaker, I shall not forget our two brothers who left us with the great task of work which is to ensure the success of this nation. I pay tribute to Hon. Teta, as he was usually called, the Member of Parliament for Solwezi Central, a fearless fighter whose motto was “No retreat, no surrender, ever forward”. May His Soul Rest in Peace.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Hamir, Member of Parliament for Chitambo, who was a gallant fighter of tribalism, will be remembered for his hard work. May His Soul Rest in Peace as we welcome his successor, Dr Solomon Musonda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, this Tenth Assembly …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The problem is that once the Chair relaxes to allow some fun for a minute, you take it for granted and begin cross-border debates. I do not think we should proceed in that way.

The hon. Minister may continue

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, this Tenth Assembly and fourth session, in particular, will be well remembered in the history of our country. It is during this Assembly that the country has changed its Budget Cycle. It is also this Assembly that is well represented in the national constitutional process.

Mr Speaker, I believe, beyond all reasonable doubt, that the gallant men and women who are tackling this process, including myself, will be remembered forever in this country. It will be of historical importance in future.

Mr Speaker, I was very upset, one time, when I was approached by a certain man who asked me a question about why the collection of revenue by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) was minimal in the Western Province. I was annoyed because, truly, there is no Zambian in this country who does not know that the Western Province is locked up. The Mongu/Kalabo to Angola Road, Kasempa/Kaoma Road and the Senanga/Sesheke Road, Lukulu /Watopa Road, which can unlock the Western Province’s economy are locked up.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, I will call a spade a spade. I will concur with my son, Hon. Hamududu, for Bweengwa, who suggested …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The people out there want to know why he is concurring with that person. When you make noise, they will not hear. Therefore, give them a chance, also, to listen.

Can you continue, please, hon. Minister?

Mr Mufalali: He said let us open up trade links where we have borders with our neighbours. The worst hit is the Zambezi West Bank which is locked up. There are no proper roads on the Western Province, from Katima Mulilo up to Lukulu West. It is, however, my sincere hope that this hard-working Government will soon act on the issue of roads in the Western Province, considering the unique soil situation there. By the way, the west bank is the main bedroom of the MMD.

Mr Speaker, let me thank His Excellency, President Rupiah Banda, for re-allocating a sum of K471 billion to the Food Reserve Agency (FRA) to continue buying our produce. It is important to buy all our produce so that, in future, we can survive when there is hunger. Also, let me thank this hard-working Government for, last year, giving the Western Province five high schools whose construction is going on as expected. Many thanks also go to our leader, His Excellency, President R. B. Banda, for the construction of more basic schools in the province.

Mr Speaker, let me caution the hon. Members of the Opposition, who envy these ministerial positions we are occupying that they should wait for their turn, if ever it will come.

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member, who is debating so poorly, in order to say that from here, we are envying their positions and yet we turn them down when they are offered to us by that Government? Is he in order, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

It puzzles the Chairperson a little bit because a few minutes ago, the hon. Member for Monze Central was saying, “Wait for the pact, we are coming there”. Now, you are saying, “Is he in order”? Are you not vying for those positions?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mufalali: Thank you, Sir, for your protection. Now that the MMD is ruling, let the MMD Members who are capable occupy these positions. There has been some progress in the running of His Excellency President Banda’s Government. Therefore, despite the global economic crunch, we mean well.

Sir, let me take this opportunity to remind Hon. - he is not around - the hon. Member of Parliament for Chimwemwe, Hon. Nsanda, that yes, we had all those motor assembly plants, but how many Zambians owned vehicles during those days he mentioned, and what is the ratio between then and now in terms of number of Zambians to number of cars? It is self-evident that more Zambians have vehicles now compared to those old days.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Finally, Mr Speaker, let me warn the newly-formed pact that God forbid that the legitimate Government is dislodged before the term expires. This term is for President Banda and MMD and likewise, the term to come. They should be patient. Patience pays and, maybe, they could win in the 2026 Presidential and Parliamentary Elections and, by then, some of their presidential “expiring” candidates will have gone.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the MMD has done a lot for this country, namely; espousing the principles of democracy, which some opposition political parties are abusing.

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Speaker, is the intelligent and schooled hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development in order to remain silent and continue smiling when the Maamba Coal Mine workers have gone on strike due to wages not being paid? The nation will grind to a halt if coal is not produced at this mine. Is he in order not to come up with a ministerial statement to tell the nation why the mine is going to grind to a halt and why the Government is not paying the workers? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, I agree that the point of order that has been raised is on an issue of importance to the nation, but it has not been raised at the appropriate time. I will not make a ruling, but request the hon. Minister to come to the House with a ministerial statement at an appropriate time.

The hon. Hon. Deputy Minister for Western Province may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Mr Speaker, the MMD has done a lot for this country, namely; espousing the principles of democracy which some of the opposition political parties are abusing …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I do not want any more points of order to be raised on the hon. Deputy Minister for Western Province.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Mr Mufalali: Thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Time!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There are people who are keeping time. They will monitor time.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Mr Mufalali: The MMD has done a lot in this country, namely; promoted democracy which some opposition political parties are abusing. It has also come up with a way to draft an indigenous Zambian Constitution. Let them give us a chance to rule. It is us with the mandate to rule and not them. If they want, let them join us and we will give them positions if they are proved to be capable.

In conclusion, let me advise our friends in the Opposition that we should respect our judicial system. Our laws must be respected. The current comments about our former President’s acquittal from the Opposition should be condemned by all law-abiding citizens.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Deputy Minister for Western Province should not go to that extent because the issue, I think, is still in court. Can you move on to another point?

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

 Mr Mufalali: Sir, let me warn the opposition parties that the pact that they have formed will not last. At one time, the jackal and the eagle made a pact. The eagle took the whole share of the meat and sat on a very tall tree and started eating. Now the jackal was seated below.

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Then the jackal asked the eagle to sing a beautiful song. The eagle started singing and, in the process, the meat fell down and was collected by the jackal. This pact that has been formed will not go anywhere.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for permitting you …

Laughter

Mr Malama: … for permitting me to stand and contribute to the President’s Speech.

It is, indeed good that this time around, people have realised that coming into this House and saying this speech hollow will not take us anywhere. At the same time, I am very disappointed with the people on your right because when they stand up to debate, they are making counter arguments to comments that the speech is hollow. This shows that we are failing to organise ourselves before we stand and try to debate in this House.

Sir, I will not condemn the speech, but I want to believe that when the President delivers a speech, I do not see any difference. The biggest problem we have is that of leaders who cannot bite or have no authority. This is why it is important that our friends on your right come to learn from the pact when it takes over.

Mr Speaker, I still would like to remind the people on your right that, like I said last year, the civil servants are not properly supervised by the Government of the day and that is why we have problems. You do not have to joke about this. We need to be serious. One day, whatever we are planting, will be harvested by our sons and daughters and it will not be good for us if they will say that our parents did not do anything for us. The fact that this time around we have been given this mandate calls on us to be serious so that we can do something that will benefit the coming generations.

Sir, the President talked about tourism and, in trying to be very fair to the nation, he said that this Government has provided K250 billion for the Chipata/Mfuwe Road. After the speech was delivered, people started calling me, wanting to find out whether it was because I had quarrelled with the hon. Deputy Minister for Northern Province at Chief Nabwalya’s Palace. They wanted to find out if that was the reason the President had given that kind of money. I would like to tell the nation …

Mr Chinyanta: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chinyanta: Mr Speaker, I rise on my first point of order in this House. Is the hon. Member in order to include me in his debate when I am sitting here taking notes and preparing for my own debate? Is he in order to misinform this House that I quarrelled with him …

Laughter

Mr Chinyanta: … and yet, in fact, I do not fight with people, but provide leadership?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member for Mfuwe might want to take that point into account as he debates.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, in fact, I was trying to correct that point. I wanted to state clearly that I never quarrelled with any person.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Ms Changwe: But you said you quarrelled.

Mr Malama: I was just about to explain. I do not want to go into those details. Let me continue from where I ended. The K250 billion which has been provided is not meant for Mfuwe Constituency. I want to put this on record because people get confused when they talk about Mfuwe Constituency. The name really confuses a lot of people.

Mr Speaker, the name “Mfuwe” comes from a Dambo found in Chief Nabwalya’s area. The road which this Government is working on is from Chipata District to Mambwe District. That is the one referred to as Mfuwe. I would like to clear this mix up so that the people out there are not confused. If the name Mfuwe continues to confuse even the people in Government, in order to clear the confusion, please, let us try to change it because we have so many names.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: It is important because even when things are being done in Mambwe District, it is thought that they are being done in the Northern Province.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, Hon. Angela Cifire, was the Guest of Honour at the Malaila Ceremony in Chief Nabwalya’s area last year. When I went to greet her, the first question she asked me was “Ba Honourable, do you have any other road apart from the one we have used because it is so terrible that I cannot afford to use the same road back to Lusaka?” The same question was posed by my very good hon. Deputy Minister for the Northern Province, Hon. Chinyanta. He said, “Ba Honourable, this is why you talk about Chief Nabwalya every time you stand up to speak in the House.” I said that it was good that he was seeing it for himself. I told him that we appreciated his visit, but reminded him that even His Honour the Vice-President had come to the area and promised to work on this road, but nothing has been done.

Mr Speaker, we need to be serious when we stand here to debate. Sometimes, we do not need to argue just because we have to defend our Government positions and continue eating well and enjoying life. That is not wise.

Mr Speaker, when the late hon. Minister said …

Hon. MMD Members: Which late Minister?

Mr Malama: When the late Hon. Tetamashimba, May His Soul Rest In Peace, said that the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) would come so that we, as hon. Members, would defend our positions, I objected to that assertion because I did not believe in it. When you become an hon. Member of Parliament, you are there to provide leadership. If you fail to provide it, you must be removed so that other people can take over. There is no way I can continue clinging to a position when I know that I am not delivering. It is not wise. We want to see development in this nation.

Mr Speaker, when I started my debate, I stated that the Government was being undermined by the civil servants. I have no apology for saying this because I have seen what is going on. In the event that other people take over the Government, they will not deliver if they do not look at how the civil servants execute their duties. Sometimes, we get busy here quarrelling and pointing at each other without sitting down to look at who is really failing to deliver.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: We will definitely kick you out of the system. For as long as we do not sit down and check what we are supposed to do, we are not going to achieve anything.

Mr Ngoma: And they will, also, kick us out of the system.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, when we are debating serious issues, we should put the positions and the comforts that we are enjoying aside. Let us look at the problems critically and objectively. My biggest problem, as I stand in this House, is how I am going to fair in society after I have been removed from this system. It will be very difficult for any hon. Member of Parliament here to contribute in society because they will be quickly silenced by making reference to what they did when they were hon. Minister or Member of Parliament.

Mr Speaker, the time has come for us to behave in a proper manner so that even when we leave these offices, we continue to be praised. However, what I see from my colleagues, when one talks about their being removed from the system, is that they raise serious points of order, trying to defend themselves. It is not for them to defend their positions, but the people out there who base their judgment on what is being done for them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Malama: They will definitely base their judgment on what the Government is doing. Therefore, let us be serious. It is not about continuing being hon. Members of Parliament or hon. Ministers, but about what you are delivering. I would like to repeat because I have seen that this is a serious problem. I would like to state, here, that the civil servants must be checked. When we take over, we will check the Civil Service to ensure that it starts to deliver.

Mr Speaker, I would like to give an example of some taxpayers’ money in the name of the CDF. This money is good for all of us. We utilise this money not because we want to continue being hon. Members of Parliament. No. That I refuse to accept. It is because we want to see development in our areas. The biggest problem we have had is that it can take one year just for a letter to authorise a certain activity to be written from a certain office.

Mr Speaker, let me give an example of what happened in Chief Nabwalya’s and Chief Chaya’s areas. A safari hunter built a clinic, but the Government refused to open the clinic on grounds that it was not built according to specifications. Why does the Government tend to be proud and yet it knows that it is poor? Here is a good Samaritan who comes and says, “Hon. Malama, I have seen that you do not have a shoe. Here is a shoe for you,” Then I say he has given me a wrong shoe. I know it is my size, but I cannot put it on because it has no shoe laces.  The people would start having doubts about my mental capacity. The people of Chief Nabwalya have only one clinic, and yet this Government rejected a clinic constructed by a good Samaritan.

Mr Speaker, I did not want to start constructing a clinic without getting a plan from the Ministry of Health. It is a shame to report to this House that I struggled for almost a year to get the plan. My tendency is not to bypass the people at the district level because I would rather give a chance to hon. Ministers to attend to other serious matters. This is why I am saying that the Government needs to review how the Civil Service is working.

I know that all of you, as a Government, are sweating and not sleeping. Some of you have chronic high blood pressure because you do not know the source. You need to understand these issues. You need to know where to touch and what to do. If you do not know that, things will be very difficult for you.

Mr Speaker, I also would like to comment on disaster management. I sometimes get worried when I see the Government failing to work on damaged bridges and roads without seriously looking into the cause of the failure. How we can continue to create new roads when the Government cannot repair the already existing roads and bridges? In two months’ time, the rains will start, but the Nakabwe Bridge which was washed away in Chief Mpumba’s area last year has not been repaired. As a result, children are not going to school because they are failing to cross the river.

Sir, if this Government cannot address such problems, you wonder if it would respond, when you ask it to build a bridge. It is failing to maintain the roads and bridges that are already existing. In this light, I am appealing to this Government to quickly work on the Nakabwe Bridge so that the pupils can continue going to school.  In future, it may not be you and I in this House, but those pupils you are denying education.

Mr Speaker, I also would like to talk about the Great North Road. I have spoken so much on this road, through a point of order, questions and debate. I would like to inform the House that I went to the Roads Development Agency (RDA) and therefore, I know that the people there are working under very difficult conditions because we do not provide them with enough money. However, I would like to state that it is important for the Government to quickly patch up potholes when they are just beginning because this will prevent accidents. This is not a joke. Those who have been to the Northern Province, using the Great North Road, will agree with me that more people will be killed if we do not patch up those potholes. It is the Government’s duty to mend the potholes.

In this regard, I take Hon. D. Mwila’s debate as my own. Indeed, we are here to give advice, but it would be very difficult for me to go to Hon. Angela Cifire’s office and tell her that she is delaying to act on a particular matter. I cannot ask her to step aside so that I act in her position. I have no mandate to do that. The only mandate I have is remind my beloved Hon. Member of Parliament, Angela Cifire, …

Ms Cifire: You just love me.

Laughter

Mr Malama: … that she is under obligation to execute her duties properly. That is what we expect from the Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: It is very important.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I cannot see the reason this Government has continued delaying to release CDF. When the Government has difficulties in releasing CDF, it should not delay to inform the nation. It should state why it cannot release some of these moneys on time. Let us know so that we help to explain to the people in our constituencies. It is that simple.

Mr D. Mwila: You are quiet. Why?

Mr Malama: I also would like to deliberate on ground levy and land issues. I will start with land issues. I really do not know when we are going to learn. I would like to give an example that it will interpret everything I would like to say on this matter. Two years ago, I acquired a one-acre plot from Meanwood. Mr Speaker, I bought that plot at K38 million and started paying for it in installments.

Mr Malama: When I finished paying for the plot, last month, I asked how much it would cost if I acquired it at the moment. I was told that it would cost me K85 billion.

Interruptions

Mr Malama: Sorry, it would cost me K85 million.

Mr Speaker, while others may try to make jokes about this issue, it is quite serious. I wonder whether the owner of that land acquired it at K85 million. I will end there. It is up to you to look into it and see whether we are just trying to get your positions. I do not mind what you think, but I have told you everything concerning acquisition of land.

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about the issue of ground levy. I think it is important that this Government respects the Committees at Parliament. We were not consulted on whether it was in order for the Head of State to just scrap off this levy. Surely, even if he is the Chief Executive, he should consult because he can only manage that position properly if he consults the people and, most importantly, that is why we are in that Committee.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Sir, we have seen how other councils have gone for four years without getting salaries. We grabbed houses from these councils and, again, we want to grab the little that we left them with.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: One day, like I always say, people will rise against this Government. When they do, I do not know whether we will find a place to hide.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I thank you.

The Deputy Minister for Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this rare opportunity to make some remarks on the President’s Speech.

Sir, from the outset, let me state that the hon. Member of Parliament for Mfuwe has spent so much time on the President’s Speech. Whether it is hollow or heavy, that should not be the case because it provides a direction for us. What is important is what you are able to pick from there. Indeed, just like all of us in here, if you are looking for faults in human beings, you will definitely find them. In the same manner, if you are looking for faults in this speech, you will find them. This is why it is important that out of the whole speech, you probably pick one or two issues that are of concern to you. However, the problem is that you want to be experts in everything.

Mr Speaker, this speech is all-encompassing. It moves from the issues of tradition, the Diaspora, international relations, science and technology and land. What else can one really ask for? For me, I am grateful that His Excellency the President has provided leadership in this regard.

Sir, let me comment on the issue of succession wrangles. The President has made very fruitful contributions on this issue. He has stated that these wrangles are affecting the country and, therefore, it is important that we resolve them because if there are problems in the chiefdoms, there will be no prosperity and progress. As such, as a country, we will get affected and this Government is on record as having stated that traditional leaders are partners in development.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, therefore, there is a need for us to take keen interest in what is going on in this country. The President has made it categorically clear that the Government cares and we need to commend the President for that.

Mr Speaker, the second issue is of planning in terms of our economy. Many hon. Members have said that the President did not talk about the National Development Plans. If you look at page 15 of the President’s Speech, it reads:

“Mr Speaker, my Government remains resolute in adhering to medium and long-term development planning instruments. In the medium term, the Fifth National Development Plan, 2006 – 2010 will be succeeded by the Sixth National Development Plan 2011 to 2015 whose preparations have commenced and is expected to be launched in June, 2010. I urge all stakeholders to fully participate in the preparation and implementation of this plan. In the long term, we shall continue to be guided by the National Vision 2030 as a framework for achieving National Development Goals, in particular, wealth creation.”

Mr Speaker, the President said that the plan will come to an end. From September, he has given ample time to intellectuals, technocrats and, indeed, national leaders to get involved in the preparation of the next national development plan. You can see that this Government …

Hon. Opposition Members interrupted.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am not sure whether the people on my left are listening. There is a lot of loud consultation. Let us listen to what the hon. Minister is saying.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, you can agree that the President believes in the system of inclusiveness. He wants all of us to participate in the preparation of the next national development plan. I have, also, mentioned that there is no need for us to reverse the wheel. The Vision 2030 is still running. Therefore, we can see that this speech is encompassing.

Mr Speaker, there is the issue of commerce and trade. The President has clearly defined the concept of reducing the cost of doing business and how to reduce the cumbersome licensing procedures in Zambia. This is part of development. Further, there is the Multi-Facility Economic Zone (MFEZ) on the Copperbelt, which is actually the future for Zambia. We are proud that Chambishi is taking another dimension.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Mbulakulima: While some of you in Lusaka still boast about Olympia Extension and Woodlands Extension, that is not the case on the Copperbelt. On the Copperbelt, we still have the old Nkana West, Chamboli and Busakile. For the first time in the history of this country, we can see a new town coming up on the Copperbelt. We can see progress such as the green fields which have never been seen before. We know that the mines are now exhausted, but some of them, if not all, are old. For the first time, we have seen the opening of mines, especially, in the North-Western Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, this Government means well. If you went to Luanshya, you would see progress. It is important to give credit where it is due. We saw the closing of the mines, but within three or four months, we saw the reopening of Luanshya Copper Mines Plc. Which Government can do such a thing? This Government is well focused. We realise that copper will still remain the mainstay of our economy. We have given a future to the mining sector. Therefore, this Government means well. Definitely, copper cannot be the only thing, but I am talking about the Copperbelt Province, where copper mining is the mainstay at the moment. The MFEZ provides an opportunity for development. This is the system that made China be where it is today. It started in 1980 and to date, China runs the third biggest economy in the country through the same system. Therefore, we are convinced that the MFEZ system, that we have started, will provide opportunities for development. Already, ten zone enterprises have been set up. By 2011, we expect that sixty more will be set up in that area, providing more than US$1.5 billion. More people on the Copperbelt and, indeed, in Zambia will be provided with the opportunities in terms of employment. Therefore, this speech, provides direction.

Mr Speaker, it is not my intention to comment on the court case, but allow me to talk about Dr Fredrick Chiluba as an individual and as a former President.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us not discuss Dr Chiluba even as an individual because, as you know, we normally do not want to discuss people who may not be in a position to defend themselves. Therefore, find another way of debating.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I have understood your direction. I would like to say that the man did a lot for this country …

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: … and we owe him a lot.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I also would like to agree with Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, an encyclopedia of experience, especially in terms of international relations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima:  It is important that we take his advice seriously.. Even if you hate the man, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Who?

Mr Mbulakulima: Hon. V. J. Mwaanga is a man who can help us. We shall not hate everything that he says. Definitely, it is important that we all know that diplomats in this country and, indeed, all over have a channel in which to air their views. Therefore, it is wrong for anyone to stand up, especially through …

Mr Beene: Mr Speaker, on a point of order!

The Deputy Chairperson:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Beene: It is not my intention to disrupt my good friend. After giving your serious guidance, is the hon. Minister in order to talk about diplomats who also cannot defend themselves in this House?

Sir, I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You see, when we are talking about people who cannot defend themselves, the question of diplomats in general, especially that he is making reference to what Hon. Mwaanga had said is in order. 

The hon. Minister may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I think my point has been taken.

Finally, …

Hon. Government Members: Awe, continue!

Mr Mbulakulima: … Mr Speaker, there were some insinuations that some hon. Ministers could not read speeches.

Sir, allow me to thank you and your team for having provided the channel in the name of Parliament Radio. This radio facility has provided opportunities for many Zambians out there to know what happens and what goes on in this House. Over the weekend, I was privileged to meet some people who told me that they are keen followers of debates in this House. They were very happy with the human resource on your right,…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … contrary to what some people might have been advocating. They reminded me of something that I have not taken keen interest in. They reminded me to reflect on human resource. Human resource is key to development. In everything that we do, we need human resource which is skilled manpower. That is why when this country goes to the polls, deliberately, they want to pick the best. I was asked if I knew that it is only on your right, Mr Speaker, where there are professors.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I reflected on it, agreed with them and told them that I was aware. They continued to say that it is only on the right side that we find medical doctors. There is none on the other side. 

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: I thought to myself that is was right. They further told me that it is only on the right side where we find Generals.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: I was, also, told that it is only on the right where we find women of substance. They were right.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: The only title they mentioned that both sides have in common is State Council. There is a State Council on both sides of the House.  

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Member to listen to the point of order. 

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Musokotwane can you state your point of order.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member, who is debating so poorly, in order to imply that women on this side of the House have no substance? Is he in order to say that when the women of substance are on this side of the Chamber? Is he in order, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: The observation of the Chairperson is that all the women in the Chamber, both on the right and left side are of substance.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The Deputy Minister may continue.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Speaker, I do agree that Parliament Radio is providing an avenue for the people to listen to what we say. Therefore, each one of us should take care. I know that people could be in a hurry to get into offices, however, we must be mindful of what we say.

Mr Speaker, if wishes were horses, we would all ride. I would like to assure them that on this side of the House, we are not sitting idle. As a matter of fact, in the Eastern Province, there is a saying which says, “mwamuna muzako ni pa chulu” …

Hon. Government Member: Meaning?

Mr Mbulakulima: This means that you cannot take your fellow man for a ride because eventually he will face you.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Mbewe for mentioning the fact that this Government has made a headway in the field of health, education and agriculture. From now on, we shall be able to cater for more people by what we are doing in agriculture. Extension officers, whom we will soon provide, will definitely allow rural areas such as Mibenge to also benefit.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Before I give the Floor to the next person, by way of guidance, I know that it is easier to write little notes to the Chairperson, especially when it is this particular one in the Chair. However, I have to remind hon. Members that as presiding officers, there are various issues or factors we take into account in allowing hon. Members to debate.

I got two or three notes from our female hon. Members saying that I should be sensitive. Yes, gender is one issue. However, the time you indicate to speak and the political grouping you belong to is another. These are the various aspects. It just so happens that the note came at a time when the next speaker was a female.

The hon. Member for Matero may speak.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. The Bible says, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I am a firm believer of this principle. Politics should be the same. 

Mr Speaker, ever since I came into this House, I have spoken in the same manner. I have never drifted. If I expect people to respect me, I must respect other people and their opinions. All of us have opinions. However, to always think that your opinion is the right one is wrong. Sometimes, we must learn to give in. It is a give and take affair.

Mr Speaker, I would like to state that politics is a business. You must scan your environment and see what is obtaining on the ground. This way, you will know which way you are moving and even when you open your mouth to debate, you will know what you are going to say and this will build you.

Mr Speaker, if we want to maintain our own cultures, and cannot see what is happening in the environment, we shall be doomed to fail. I am a Franciscan and every day I pray to God that I not so much seek to be understood but to be understand. We must work towards building our nation.

This is a Parliament which people have put in place. Therefore, when we are debating, we must be mindful of the people who are listening and want to get something from our debates. However, if we want to take this as a play ground or some place where we can tell jokes, then I am afraid that we are not moving in the right direction. 

Mr Speaker, all of us are entitled to criticism. We should criticise. However, it should be constructive criticism. If I say that the President’s Speech is hollow, which I am entitled to saying if I so wish, I must be able to say how hollow it is and how I would like it to be.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: All of us want to learn.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: However, if I am going to stand in this House and say it is hollow and end there, who is benefiting from such a statement? No one will listen to this.

Mr Speaker, I worked in the Civil Service for many years. I also worked in educational broadcasting, making films and presenting programmes and followed politics at all cost. This is the only time I have observed that we have been politicking for the last five years and not making progress. There comes a time when we should stop politicking and come together to build the nation.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: We will not build this country by criticising, but only when we criticise constructively. Let us not criticise people because they are in Government. One day, I am going to be on that side of the House and I expect people who will be on this side to give me constructive criticism.

Hon. Member: Tomorrow!

Mrs Sinyangwe: We forget about some of the things that we talk about. Sooner or later I can be on that side of the House. There is nothing impossible about being here or there. The people who are there can be here and the people who are here can be there. We have seen this happen in this House in one way or the other.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe:  Mr Speaker, I would like to start by talking about corruption. We have talked about corruption before. I have seen articles in the papers about President Rupiah Banda failing in the fight against corruption. The way I see it, can one person fight corruption in this country?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mrs Sinyangwe: All of us must be committed to fighting corruption. This includes we on this side of the House who speak the loudest. I am sure that in one way or the other, we are corrupt.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was talking about corruption. I was saying that no individual can fight corruption in this country …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: … because the people who are corrupt are sophisticated and are capable of thinking. Therefore, it is up to all of us to fight corruption because corruption starts with one step; the following day it makes a second step until it is out of control. Therefore, let us all come together, as Zambians, because there is a need to have a unity of purpose for the sake of Mother Zambia.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: It is easier to criticise than to perform.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sinyangwe: I have been presenting programmes on television and someone who is not a producer will ask me why I did not do this or that, and yet if they had a chance to do that job, they would not be able to do it well. That is why the person who is doing the job and the one who is criticising must come together and find an amicable solution that will steer this country forward.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Those who are being criticised must, also, listen. Therefore, let us be people who are going to work as a nation.

Sir, somebody spoke about the NCC and how we are not keen to end the deliberations in time. It is very sad that a member of the General Purpose Committee of the NCC, who is supposed to guide the deliberations and was supposed to draw the Committee’s programme of work, can stand up and condemn it totally.

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to question the Parliamentary Privileges to debate the way I want and on behalf of the people? Is she in order to start questioning my debate in this House and bring issues from outside into this House? Is she in order, Sir?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, hon. Member, let us avoid entangling ourselves in such intricacies. The hon. Member for Matero can veer off that route.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, what I am talking about is that we have made some provisions, which will help us work at a faster speed and the person who was debating knows about it.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order!

You started nicely and I advised you to veer off that track. Do not go back. Continue with the argument so that we do not attract points of order.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, I am much obliged.  Let me now come to the issues that I wanted to address. I will begin with the subject that is very close to my heart, that is, education.

Sir, most of the times I have come out and said that education is key to the development of this country because once you are educated, you have a wider scope of looking at things and therefore, you understand issues. It seems we have done some work, but we need to do more.

Sir, the President’s Speech, does not mention distance education. Distance education is the answer to our illiteracy problems because it is not everybody who will manage to go into the classroom. Access to education will continue to be a problem for many years, no matter how many colleges and school we build.

 Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson:  Order!

Hon. Members, can you minimise your discussions.

May the hon. Member for Matero continue, please.

Mrs Sinyangwe: Sir, I would like to commend the Open University for the effort that they have made. Just a few weeks ago, we saw thousands graduating. I would, also, like to take this opportunity to congratulate Hon. Chitika-Mulobeka, who graduated with a merit, not forgetting Hon. Kapeya. Without distance education, these people would not have attained what they have attained.

Interruptions

Mrs Sinyangwe: Sir, there are many others, including Hon. Chisala, who have done likewise.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 They are distracting your debate.

Mrs Sinyangwe: The Ministry of Education should take a close look at the infrastructure of some of the universities.

Sir, the Mulungushi University, which is a Public University, which we want to develop into a centre of excellence, needs the support of all of us.

I would like to commend the Government for turning the Nkrumah Teachers’ Training College and Copperbelt Secondary Teachers’ College (COSETCO) into University Colleges because we need more university places.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Therefore, I would like to urge the Government to move in quickly and improve the infrastructure at the two colleges to university standard because we are training teachers of science and mathematics who are in short supply. We do not want to produce teachers without practical knowledge. Therefore, let us have laboratories and other infrastructure in place.

Of course, teachers need to be motivated. Housing has been a problem for teachers for many years. I have always asked why we do not empower teachers by developing a revolving fund for teachers to get loans to build houses. If we build houses for teachers, it is well and good, but, at the end of the day, they will vacate these houses and become destitute.

Sir, what is happening now is that teachers live in servant’s quarters, which is very sad. Let us solve this problem using two ways. While houses for teachers are built, we can, also, give them house loans.

Sir, as for the youths, there are a lot of them. In my constituency, there are a lot of youths and I do not know what to do with them. They do not have anything to do and they have no skills. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to intervene and see what can be done about this. We need skill centres to be constructed for the youth since there are no jobs for them. If we cannot give them jobs, then let us give them skills that will help them lead a meaningful life. Therefore, we need to look at this issue seriously.

Mr Speaker, I now wish to talk about an issue that has been of concern and, that is, unplanned settlements. We have seen many unplanned settlements mushrooming all over. Cadres are at the core of this issue. I am not talking about cadres from one political party, but from all political parties because I have seen, in my constituency, cadres from my party giving plots.

Interruptions

Mrs Sinyangwe: For this reason, I would like to caution people who just want to accuse people from one side. If you accuse one person and leave out the other, you will not solve the problem. Let all political parties talk to their cadres to desist from doing this because it has brought misery. For example, I have been given money to build a school in my constituency but, to date, I am still battling to find a place because all the land has been given away by cadres. We cannot let a situation like this continue. We will not allow cheap popularity by letting cadres do wrong things. Let us not do that. Let us move in and do what is right.

Secondly, I would like to suggest that politics be separated from councils because politicking in most of the councils has retarded progress.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: As far as I am concerned, I know that a councillor is a civic leader. Therefore, we need to work together to develop the cities, municipalities and towns.

Dr Katema: He needs to drop from heaven!

Mrs Sinyangwe: That is why a councillor does not need to drop from heaven because he is there to work for the people.

In the past, a Member of Parliament, who was a civil servant, could be fired unlike a councillor who was considered to be a civic leader. Please, I would suggest that we go back to the old system where councillors would do their work properly and without interference.

I do not know whether having hon. Members of Parliament in the councils has helped or worsened the situation. We should look at this issue seriously and let Members of Parliament stay in the Chamber at Parliament.

Mr Speaker, on the health sector, I would like to commend the Ministry of Health for building an Operating Theatre at a clinic in my constituency and for the plans to turn most clinics in Lusaka into hospitals. This is good. This is how it is supposed to be. We need to take health facilities closer to the people.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: On the issue of hearses, I wish to say that I have a different view on it. Whether we like it or not we are going to die. Therefore, we ought to respect the dead …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: … and put them to rest in a good manner.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I see people carrying the dead on wheelbarrows in my constituency. I cannot speak for the other areas whether the opinion of others on hearses is wrong or right. I am speaking for my constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Ambulances are needed as much as hearses.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Therefore, what we need to do is look at the amount of money that people are asked to pay for the services of hearses. If it is too much, it can be brought down so that people can afford. In essence, a person who has money will not use such a hearse. This kind of a hearse is for the poor. For this reason, we should have them in constituencies where people want them. Where they do not want them, they can be traded for ambulances. That is alright.

Mr D. Mwila: How? But they have a specific job!

Hon. Government Member: Awe!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Mr Speaker, on information and broadcasting, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to seriously look into the second television channel to be introduced. Most of the time, what is broadcast is not beneficial to anybody. We have programmes for which we can use that second channel. I talked about distant education and broadcasting playing a vital role in education. There are a good number of issues that we can address, for instance, agriculture, health, education, youth and sport. We should seriously look into the idea of having educational programmes at set times in order to address issues that are going to benefit our people. In most cases, whenever there is a developmental issue to be reported, the reporters are not there. When there is a conflict in politics, all the cameras will be there. We need to change this attitude.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Finally, I would like to commend the Government for curriculum indaba, but, in future, the net should be cast wider to include the people in the villages because there is a lot that can be added to the curriculum. For instance, the people in Luapula can add fishing issues to the curriculum. Those who grow pineapples and make honey can, also, add them to the curriculum. As teachers, we can use the indigenous people to train other people in the skills they need.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Imasiku): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for allowing me to say a word or two to this very important Motion moved by the able Member of Parliament for Kalabo Central, Hon. Sikwibele Mwapela, and seconded by the Mufulira Member of Parliament, Hon. Marjory Mwape.

Sir, before I continue with my debate, I wish Hon. Shakafuswa were here because I wanted to tell him that I will see him outside.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Hon. Minister, the connotation of that sentence might be different from the normal phrase “see him outside”.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, do not “see him outside” with bad intentions.

Can you continue, please?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, let me join the hon. Members who spoke before me in expressing my heartfelt condolences on the death of our departed compatriots, Hon. Nasim Hamir and Hon. Ben Tetamashimba who untimely left us before this Assembly winds up in 2011. May Their Souls Rest in Peace.

Sir, Hon. Hachipuka actually calls me uncle just because I lived with his family, the Matayas, in Serenje for almost five years. Teta was a sweet name in the MMD circles and to those who deliberately wanted to detour or delay the goals and aspirations of our great party and its leadership. May His Soul Rest in Peace.

Mr Speaker, let me, now, utilise this time to congratulate the leadership of our mighty party …

Mr Hachipuka: On a point of order.

Hon. Government Member: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Hachipuka: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. What does the hon. Minister want to say since he has already finished his debate? Is he in order to continue to speak when he has already finished. What does he want to say?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister on the Floor is in order. It is you who is out of order by raising that point of order.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Imasiku: Thank you, Mr Speaker, I know that Hon. Hachipuka is scared of what I am about to say.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Sir, let me utilise this time to congratulate the leadership of our mighty party, the MMD, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: … on steering the party to its victory in the just-ended Chitambo By-election. The apex and the base are hereby commended. This shows the confidence the people of this country have in the party which brought democracy to this country under the leadership of His Excellency the President Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda and also the Vice-President, His Honour Mr George Kunda, SC., called GK.

Ms Lundwe: State Council!

Mr Imasiku: It is common knowledge that you cannot mention the Chitambo By-election without mentioning the names of Gastson Sichilima, …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: The boxer!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: … who was almost torn apart in this noble and reasonable cause. Thank God he was rescued and evaded the arrows of the opponent.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Dr Musonda, I wish to say that you are welcome. To us, you are simply adding the number of doctors on this side of the House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, regarding the President’s Speech, from the outset I would like to state that it was a landmark, inspiring and keynote address to this august House and the nation at large.

Mr Speaker, perceiving the speech from a different angle is a deliberate way of distorting plain facts. You need to have a perverted mind to see holes in this speech. I do not understand why some hon. Members of this House are seeing holes in the speech instead of looking at the meat which is contained therein. Such pronouncements are made in bad faith and are borne out of malice.

Mr Speaker, it is counter productive for an hon. Member to manufacture statements as a way of trying to prepare a road for his or her leader to State House. It is wrong to just make funny stories so that another leader goes to State House. The hon. Members who are discrediting the President’s Speech are the ones who spoke ill of the President’s Speech early this year. I would like to remind such debaters that politics of vengeance, hatred and malice are outdated and retrogressive, to say the least.

Mr Speaker, trying to gain political mileage out of such ill-conceived motives will take you backwards instead of taking you forward. It is sad to note that some hon. Members are mistaking this keynote address to an annual report or a Budget Speech. They would like to see all the figures for all the roads, schools, clinics, hospitals and so on. They are losing track of what this document is about.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, the President has touched on all the sectors of human endeavour, covering all the sectors of the economy, stating the background, the past, the present and what we should expect to see in the future. It is a speech meant to give hope in the midst of the current worldwide economic recession. It gives hope to a cross section of the Zambian society. The message I have for those who are belittling the leadership of the State with words lifted from their small pocket dictionaries …

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: … is that they will not find it easy. How can you get away with sentiments such as “poverty of leadership” amidst men and women of such high and renowned profiles? As somebody has said, it is only in this section where we have doctors and professors and so on. It is uncalled for and demeaning for someone to stand up and say that this team has people who lack leadership qualities. It is not a secret that all the stages of the current leadership are manned by highly qualified men and women trained for the work they are entrusted to perform on behalf of the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, slogans such as “poverty of leadership” may befit the people who are saying them. Maybe, that is the situation on their side. It is malicious to claim that the President’s Speech was empty because it looked at important issues such as the change in the Budget Cycle which we all commend. The President said:

“It is my expectation that the nation will rise to the challenge of ensuring that this change is used to overcome the failure to utilise all the funds in the Budget that was experienced in the past.”

Mr Speaker, what is lacking in this statement? Is this not what we voted for and what we have been advocating? In the past, we have been complaining that money has been going back to the Treasury after it is released because the Budget is delivered late and when the President talks about it, you say the speech is hollow. Who is hollow, is it not you?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, on banking, the President said that the financial sector has remained stable because of the monitoring by the Central Bank which is the Bank of Zambia. What is wrong with the President saying that? Is there any bank which collapsed during the time of the recession? Have you noticed anything happening to any of our banks? There is nothing because of the quality leadership of this Government, …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imasiku: … which has the Central Bank and all that is needed to make sure that the banking sector and the financial systems continue to thrive. With all this, it is not right for someone to claim that the system lacks leadership. Is that not true?

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, if you go to page 18, the President informed the nation that activities have started at the Multi Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs) in Chambishi and the area near the Lusaka International Airport. Is this not the programme which you people in this House wanted to be put in place? When the President reports to the House on such activities and how they are taking place, how can you stand up and say the speech is hollow? Who is hollow?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: The person who is saying that the speech is hollow has a perverted mind and cannot see what normal human beings are seeing.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: What is irritating about that subtle message in the speech? Regarding skills and development, the President said that the Government intends to increase its capacity to absorb school leavers by expanding existing high learning institutions and building new skills training institutions. Is that not what you want? We want the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training to make sure that it increases the number of learning opportunities by building new institutions and this Government has already started doing that. There are training schools in Mongu, Kaoma and many other parts of the country and we have more learning institutions coming up. After the Budget, you will see some more being built. How can you say that the President’s Speech was hollow, and yet it gave us so much hope for the country? Who is hollow? Examine yourself.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, regarding agriculture, the Government plans to strengthen the disease control programme by creating disease control zones. It is the President who said so. The Government is, also, going to establish breeding centres which will be used in the restocking programme. This is a policy statement by the leader of the nation on what he intends to do through this Government, and yet some people want to stand up and say the speech is hollow. Are you not hollow yourself?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Imasiku: Honestly, who is hollow?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, can you address the Chair.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your advice. I have heard some people complaining about the restocking of animals in this country, especially in those areas such as the Southern and Western provinces where animals are dying. The President is giving you hope by saying that he is going to provide money for more animals to be bred and for disease control.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Honestly, …

Mr V. Mwale: Who is hollow?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: … who is hollow?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: I think it is you.

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about agriculture and food security. The Government plans to increase the beneficiaries of the agriculture support programme from 250,000 to 500,000 beneficiaries so that we increase the food supply in the country. Which is better, to have 250 people have food or 500,000 people have food?

Hon. Opposition Members: 500,000.

Mr Imasiku: We are not just talking about the quantity, but also about the type of beneficiaries …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Imasiku: … because what we want is to put food in the granaries of this country.

Interruptions

Mr Imasiku: We are talking about the vulnerable people and not the rich. Actually, I have heard somebody say that fertiliser should be sold at the same price to those who are very rich and to those who are poor. This same person wants to go to Kalabo to contest for elections ...

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: … despite making such a statement. How can you expect the poor to buy the fertiliser at the same price at which a person who is in Mkushi or a white man elsewhere is buying? Are you saying something sensible? I think that is hollow?

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, regarding tourism, on tourism, the President highlighted a number of issues such as those to do with the Kasaba Bay and Livingstone. Do you not want that type of development? I am surprised that they are claiming that such pronouncements are hollow. No, I think they need to examine themselves.

Mr Speaker, you people must digest the President’s Speech so that you can tell your people exactly what was in the speech and not tell them that he said nothing.

Mr Speaker, I stand here to condemn the current politics of vengeance or insults. There are leaders who believe that they will pave their way to State House by insulting the incumbent President. That is wrong.

Hon. Opposition Members: They are hollow.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, that type of thinking is not good. If you can remember, such politics were practiced during the time of our departed President. People called him names and insulted him. Some even wished for his resignation because they claimed that he was sick. Have we forgotten the things we were saying yesterday? It was only because of God’s hands that the late President managed to reconcile with somebody when that person fell sick. How long did the late President live after the reconciliation? The late President become sick a month later and passed away. So, why are you singing that you were supporting Mwanawasa, when, actually, you insulted him from time immemorial until his death. That type of thinking is hollow.

Laughter

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, I have realised that the people on your left side have even tried to incite traditional leaders against the Government. Of late, we have observed, with dismay, situations where traditional leaders like chiefs have resorted to openly attacking the Head of State.

Ms Lundwe: Yes.

Mr Imasiku: Luckily enough, such leaders are very few.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mention their names.

Mr Imasiku: The traditional leaders should know that they are special personalities. Hence, they should not engage in a war of words because they will not enjoy the results. Traditional leaders are highly respected people, thus we, as politicians, should not encourage them to stand up and insult the President just because we want to go to State House. If we stood up and retaliated, I am sure that they would not like it.

Hon. Government Members: No.

Mr Imasiku: Where I come from, traditional leaders are respected.

Hon. Opposition Member: Where do you come from?

Mr Imasiku: The Western Province, of course. Some of the traditional leaders do not even speak on there own, but through someone. As MMD cadres, we shall not condone the behaviour of the traditional leaders who talk ill of the President.

Hon. Opposition Members: You are cadres.

Mr Imasiku: Yes, we are. We are not going to condone that. Therefore, you should give the traditional leaders my advice.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, there is one thing which people have not realised. In this country, there are some people who have continuously attacked somebody.

Mr Sing’ombe: Mention their names.

Mr Imasiku: I do not want to mention the name, but most people do not know the source of that conflict. Someone who really wanted to be a President has espoused the habit of attacking a particular person who does not know what happened in 2001 when the MMD adopted its preferred candidate for the presidential elections. We know that this behaviour is borne out of malice after he failed to get the nomination for the presidential elections.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, thank you for allowing me to add my voice to the President’s Speech.

Mr Mwenya: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, this speech was …

Hon. Government Member: Wamwa tugiligili.

Dr Katema: … labelled as harmless and benign by the President.

Mr Lubinda: Sibazamvera manje.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, during my debate, I would like to be allowed to raise one or two harmless questions. We have been told that the purpose of this speech is to give a vision and inspire people towards it. To inspire a people to pursue a vision, you are supposed to be seen to believe in that vision, to literally be seen to live that vision. Only then will you lead people towards your vision.

Mr Speaker, the greatest ingredient you need to lead people towards a vision is consistence.

Mr Mwenya: Uleumfwa ichisungu, iwe.

Dr Katema: Consistence is the key word.

Mr Lubinda: Sibazamvera manje. Iwe, ungazikamba pali Mubika Mubika.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There are too many people making running commentaries. The debater cannot even be heard.

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, just when we came to this House, the gallant hon. Member of Parliament for Nkana in the name of Hon. Mwenya Musenge …

Mr Mwenya: Hear, hear!

  Dr Katema: … brought a Private Member’s Bill to this House to increase mining royalties and to introduce the concept of windfall tax. We remember, vividly, how the people on your right vigorously and viciously fought the introduction of these taxes and shot the Bill down.

 

Hardly a year passed before the Republican President brought it back here at the opening of Parliament. Surprisingly, the same mouths that shot down this idea were passionately debating for it. In the previous sitting, these hon. Members on your right were opposing the concept of windfall tax. This shows lack of consistency. In one parliamentary session, the same people are moving to and fro.  That is like walking one step forward and then two steps backwards. If a government is preoccupied with remaining in power at whatever costs, it loses focus on development. Please, allow me to illustrate this.

In 2007, just before the by-election which ushered Hon. Simuusa into this House, we saw how money was quickly mobilised to pay a contractor to rehabilitate some roads in Nchanga Constituency. When the contractor confessed that, in fact, he did not have the machinery needed, it was this Government which went as far as mobilising machinery from a contractor in Ndola while the work in Ndola stalled. This was done so as to be seen to be doing something in Nchanga. Immediately Hon. Simuusa won the by-election, the machinery was taken back to Ndola.

Mr Speaker, the list is endless. Another example is that of Chikankata, where there is a small stretch of tarred road that was worked on during a by-election. To date, that road has not been completed. Again, that shows a lack of consistency. The Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) indicates the number of nursing schools to be rehabilitated in the country. It indicates that Chitambo Nursing School was supposed to be rehabilitated in 2011. However, just because of the recent by-election in Chitambo, money was sourced to rehabilitate the nursing school in the area. This means that the rehabilitation works on a nursing school somewhere were affected. Let us hope that these works have not stalled right after the elections.

In Kasama, I have seen the supersonic speed at which street lights are being installed. I have never seen it before and, very soon, we will see a halt in that project. Money has, also, been sourced to work on water reticulation projects in Kapoka Township, except I am not privy to the information on which township or council is going to suffer for that.

Mr Speaker, quote me right, I am not against the idea of taking development to the areas I have mentioned. It is the trading off of consistency for political expediency that I am worried about. I advise this Government to take a leaf from the National Development Plans of the First and Second Republics where, when it was decided that a district hospital was to be constructed in every district, it was done whether elections or by-elections were taking place or not. That is the kind of development that we want.

Mr Mwenya: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: As it is …

The lights in the Chamber went out.

Interruptions

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, there is a vision or plan in the FNDP to build a district hospital in every district. This is a brilliant idea, indeed. However, along the way, after a visit to a friendly country somewhere, the Republican President came to announce that we have been offered mobile hospitals by this friendly nation. Later on, after public pressure, of course, the Government told us that this offer is not actually a grant, but a loan. In fact, it had to take the co-operating partners to pressure the Government to explain the diversion of the initial plan in the health sector.

Mr Chota: Hear, hear! Doctor!

Laughter

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, knowing our Government as I do now, come rain or sunshine, these mobile hospitals will arrive in this country and they will not do so this year or 2010 but, most likely, in 2011. This, again, translates into political expediency. Let me demonstrate this. The hon. Deputy Minister of Health made an attempt at sugar coating this matter by likening it to the concept of mobile clinics, mobile Anti-Retroviral Therapy (ART) clinics, our referral system as well as the ambulances of the Zambia Flying Doctor Service. He got it all wrong. The success and sustainability of any specialised mobile health service is dependent on the existence of a permanent health infrastructure and qualified medical personnel in the areas to be served by this mobile health system.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: Mr Speaker, this concept is not new. When I was working as Executive Director for Kasama General Hospital …

Mr Mwenya: Bebe!

Dr Katema: … a world-renowned orthopaedic surgeon, Professor Jerries, used to run this concept. Professor Jerries used to run it in this way. Every district in the Northern Province was tasked to identify patients who needed specialist treatment and the districts, in turn, told the clinical officers in the remotest rural health centres to identify such patients and bring them to the district. The districts, in turn, brought them to the provincial centres for treatment. Then, Professor Jerries would fly in with his experts after we had made provisions and looked for everything that was required. He flew in with the provisions which we could not source locally, including the expertise.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Katema: We worked together with those experts on the cases and after these patients were treated, we looked after them in the provincial centres. After treatment, we further dispatched them through the districts where they would be seen by the district medical officers and their teams and, thereafter, there was onward transmission back to the rural health centres where they were seen and monitored by the clinical officers. An efficient reference or referral system is an ingredient.

Mr Speaker, how would it have been if Professor Jerries had flown in by chopper from village to village doing those operations and leaving the patients under a tree or in the care of some Sangomas in those areas? What would have happened? It does not work like that.

Mr Speaker, if I were asked what I would do with those monies which the Government wants to use to buy mobile hospitals, I would advise the Government to complete the building of infrastructure in the form of health centres and posts in the districts and remote parts of the country and employ qualified and well-motivated personnel.

As regards governance, the catch word is transparency. How transparent and consistent are we? When RP Investment was single sourced to evaluate ZAMTEL …

Mr Lubinda: By Dora!

Dr Katema: … naturally, eyebrows were raised. The reason is simple. Why leave world renowned evaluators who evaluated even mining conglomerates such as ZCCM and others in preference for an unknown RP Investment agent, and for what? It came from a company which is registered in a tax haven, for goodness sake. How and, if at all, something went wrong today, can we go into that tax haven to ask who the shareholders of this company are? Why go to a tax haven? That is the benign question.

Mr Speaker, when we ushered in the Mines and Minerals (Amendment) Act, we were assured that a separate account would be maintained and this House would be briefed constantly on how these windfall tax monies were being spent, but we are still waiting.

Mr Mwenya: Balilya, nabatwala ku Kasama. Muli nokucimona.

Dr Katema: Recently, I was privileged to attend a seminar on the Copperbelt where I learnt that Zambia, in fact, is a signatory to a Convention by governments of countries which are engaged in the extraction of minerals, oil and gas. The ultimate goal of this organisation is to see to it that governments are accountable to the general citizenry by compelling the mining companies to publish what they give to the governments, and the governments to publish what they have earned from the mining companies. This is to enable the citizens to track how these monies are being used.

If the signing of this protocol is not a window dressing exercise, can we hear it from the horse’s own mouth on how far we have gone in the attempt to domesticate this convention of publishing what you pay and earn?

The Zambian people want transparency in the way justice is dispensed. When the State prosecutes somebody on behalf of the people and they are not satisfied, it is just natural that when they demand for an appeal, it is given to them. When the State is seen to flout the process and even go as far as firing Directors of Public Prosecution (DPP), the people will start asking questions, not benign or innocent, but very corrosive and aggressive questions. This is what is happening and it is not good for this Government  to instead start calling people …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mufalali: Sir, is the hon. Member for Chingola in order to comment on issues which are not supposed to be brought to the House?

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: He is talking about the DPP.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister for Western Province is right in raising the point of order. I held on because I thought the hon. Member for Chingola was going to move onto another point, but I allowed him for long enough to warrant a point of order. The hon. Member will bear that point in mind.

He may continue.

Dr Katema: Sir, it is unfortunate that when, for example, the hon. Minister of Works and Supply says a certain road will be tarred, we take it as a Government assurance. However, when he says that some people should go to jail and others should not, we get worried. I am talking about consistency. Let us be consistent in whatever we do.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned at 1930 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 30th September, 2009.

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