Debates- Wednesday, 14th October, 2009

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Wednesday, 14th October, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






126. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) how many vehicles the Government had bought for Chiefs country-wide as of 30th June, 2009;

(b) when the Government would buy additional vehicles for the remaining Chiefs; and

(c) whether the Ministry had started recovering the loans from the Chiefs who received their vehicles earlier.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musosha): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that as of 30th June, 2009, the Government had bought 196 vehicles for chiefs.

The ministry intends to procure the remaining ninety-four vehicles as soon as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning releases the K4.8billion required for the purchase of the vehicles.

Mr Speaker, the ministry has not yet started recovering the loans from the chiefs who received their vehicles earlier.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, the first batch of the vehicles was delivered last year. I would like to know why the Government has not yet started recovering the loans from the chiefs.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, every loan package, I believe, goes with conditions of contract. As such, I expect the loan package in question to have its conditions as laid down by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why his ministry has continued to buy vehicles which are being rejected by most of the chiefs on account of them being Toyota Surfs.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, what normally happens is that the chiefs are asked what type of vehicles they would like. Some of the chiefs were given large trucks and most of them have not complained. We do not know the motives or reasons behind the complaints in the case of the chiefs that are complaining. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in his response, stated that the loans have conditions. In a nutshell, would the hon. Minister explain to us what conditions these are?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, although this is a new question, the bottom line is that the vehicles are given to the chiefs on loan.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the numbers given by the hon. Minister, in his response, amount to 290 vehicles. Would the hon. Minister state whether when procuring these 290 vehicles, which is a large order, they followed an open tender system and if so, how many companies tendered and which company won?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, these vehicles are bought directly from Japan. No local company has been contracted to procure them.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why the Government decided to buy second-hand vehicles, against the set regulation. Why did we not give these chiefs money to buy vehicles of their choice?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, the chiefs are asked to choose what type of vehicles they want. By the first contract, they were told that used vehicles would be bought for them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, my concern is on question (c), which is when the Government will start recovering the loans. Would the hon. Minister indicate to this House when deductions will start. We would like to know because one year has since passed.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, we are waiting for every chief to be served.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Musosha: Later on, the loans will be deducted.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, it is evident that chiefs have no financial base in terms of earning from the Government for them to pay back these loans. In view of the fact that some of them have clearly declared that they are the Movement for Multi-party democracy (MMD) cadres, like Chitimukulu …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … is the Government not thinking of giving these loans just as grants to the chiefs.

Mr Speaker: Order! In answering that question, the hon. Minister will ignore reference to the personality that is not in this House.

The hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing may continue.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, we are not aware of the financial base of the chief he has referred to. However, as far as we are concerned, these vehicles were given on loan and a loan has to be paid back. 
Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, in his response regarding who ordered the vehicles, the hon. Minister indicated that they were ordered straight from Japan. I would like to find out from him which agent was used because they could not just have ordered these vehicles. Which agent was used? Was it the Government and if not, then which company was used?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, these vehicles are bought by the Government directly from Japan.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister what punitive measures would be taken against the chiefs who will fail to pay back the loans. 

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, as the vehicles were given on agreement with the chiefs that the vehicles shall be paid for, it is our conviction that these vehicles, having been taken by the chiefs on loans, will be paid for.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, it is a well known fact that some chiefs are from water body areas. Is the Government considering giving loans for boats to such chiefs?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, in my response, I stated that each chief was asked what type of a vehicle he or she wanted the Government to procure for him or her. Those that chose to have boats will have boats bought for them.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister whether there is a special reason why tender procedures of bidding were…


 Mr Speaker: Order! I did not understand because there was a lot of talking right here. The hon. Member has to start her question all over again.

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing why tender procedures of bidding were not followed considering the size of the transaction. Why did we have to order directly from Japan when we have laid down procedures to adhere to depending on the magnitude of the transaction?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for that question.

Sir, the Government has a right to either contract or procure under force account.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chella (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, I would like to know who is responsible for the insurance of these vehicles.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, as the vehicles are driven from the point of entry, Dar-Es-Salaam, to Nakonde, they are supposed to be insured. Therefore, they come insured and are paid for by the Government.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}


127. Mr Sejani (Mapatizya) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housin:

(a) how many paramount and senior chiefs there were country-wide, province by province;

(b) what the qualifications for a person to be referred to as Senior Chief  were; and

(c) whether there was a hierarchy of promotion among chiefs.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Musosha): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform this House that the country has four paramount chiefs and forty-two senior chiefs as indicated bellow:

 Province Number of    Number of Senior
   Paramount Chiefs  senior chiefs

 Lusaka   0    2

 Central    0    4

 Luapula   0    8

 Eastern   2    6

 Copperbelt  0    3

 Western   1    2

 Southern  0    1

 N/Western  0    8

 Northern  1    8

 Total   4    42


Mr Speaker, there are no specific qualifications for one to be a senior chief because at the time chiefs were being recognised by the colonial administration, there was no specific policy put to guide as to who should be a paramount, senior chief or, indeed, an ordinary chief. This practice left by our colonial masters has been followed by the Government to date. However, the Bemba Royal Establishment has a system where chiefs rise from lower position through senior chief up to paramount chief.

Mr Speaker, in the Western Province, a similar system to that of the Bemba is applied, but chiefs only rise to the senior chief position.

Mr Speaker, the hierarchy of promotion among chiefs only exists in the Northern and Western provinces, that is, among the Bemba and Lozis, respectively.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, would the hon. Minister tell this House who the only senior chief in the Southern province is.

 Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker,

Mr Musosha: Sir, we only know Senior Chief Mukuni.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah!

Hon. UPND Members: Monze!

Mr Musosha: I mean Senior Chief Monze. I beg your pardon, Sir.

 I thank you, Sir.


Mr Speaker: Order! We are dealing with the need for correct record arising from facts. May the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing once more tell this House who the only senior chief in the Southern Province is.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, may I be given a chance to go and consult.

 I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg your indulgence to come up with the correct answer before the end of this Session. The Clerk of the National Assembly will then, circulate it in the course of tomorrow.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! Yes, that will be done. Let me guide the Executive that when you answer a question like this one, expect Supplementary Questions. In an answer like the one given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing, when he said that there were so many paramount and senior chiefs, he should have expected that any hon. Member in this House was free to seek more details on who these so many paramount and senior chiefs are.

You normally should have what is known as fall back answers arising from Supplementary Questions. You do not have to say that, “That is a new question.” It does not help. The House and the nation as whole want to be educated through the House.

 In addition to that one chief, I would suggest that it will be necessary for the entire list of paramount chiefs and the senior chiefs to be submitted to this House through the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly who will circulate the correct answer.

There was a Supplementary request, but I can see none now.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing confirm the assertion that there is a certain ordinary chief in the Southern Province, who is currently campaigning for the MMD on the premise that he will be confirmed as paramount chief for the Tongas in the Southern Province.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, as far as our party administration is concerned, only party members and cadres are employed to campaign for our party. Therefore, no chief is employed by our party.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, with your guidance, with regard to the new list of chiefs, I was going to seek how many of these two chiefs are in the Western Province because I thought there were more.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, in my response, I stated that each chief was asked what type of a vehicle he or she wanted the Government to procure for him or her. Those that chose to have boats will have boats bought for them.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

However, on the question of recognition of chiefs, would the hon. Minister tell us why, in the Western Province, chiefs who appear on our cards and some who are in charge of two areas like Chief Nawasilumbi in Nalikwanda Constituency and Chief Mokanolamo, are not recognised as chiefs.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, recognition of all chiefs in Zambia is done by the Republican President upon receiving an application for it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: May the Acting Leader of Government Business assist, if he can?

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, in addition to what the hon. Deputy Minister has informed the House, I wish to add that, currently, we have a total of 286 chiefs nationwide. These are the chiefs who are recognised and they include the paramount, senior and ordinary chiefs. It is not the intention of the Government to increase this number because it might just increase disputes between chiefdoms and disputes of succession. Therefore, we believe that the number we have is adequate to cater for all the traditional needs of the Zambian people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I shall recognise one last question from the hon. Member for Kalomo.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister informed us that the ordered vehicles are 290, but the Leader of Government Business in the House has just clarified that the number of chiefs is 286. Why has the Government ordered the extra four vehicles? Which chiefs are they going to give them to?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, it is true that there are four extra vehicles in accordance with the answer that was given in relation to the number of chiefs that we have. However, we have a department that directly deals with chiefs at the ministry which needs to be mobile. Therefore, the four vehicles will be utilised within the ministry.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!




128. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) why major buildings and construction works were contracted to Chinese companies; and

(b) how many construction projects in the education and health sectors were currently being undertaken by Chinese-owned companies?

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, all major buildings and construction works are advertised and various construction companies compete. It is the most competitive bidders who are awarded to do the job either by the Ministerial Tender Committee or the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) Tender Committee, depending on the value/cost of contract and threshold of the ministry.

For the Ministry of Education, there are sixty-two projects under the Chinese contractors distributed countrywide as reflected below:

 Province No. of Projects

  Central Province   9

  Copperbelt Province  6

  Lusaka Province   8

  Luapula Province   3

  Eastern Province   5

  Northern Province  5

  North-Western Province  6

  Southern Province  9

  Western Province   9

  Total 62

In 2008, the Ministry of Health had a total of fifteen running contracts. From these fifteen, five of these were executed by Chinese contractors.

This year, 2009, twenty-three contracts have been awarded. Three of these are to Chinese contractors.

Mr Speaker, we have detailed data which I will lay on the Table showing all the projects being carried out by Chinese contractors.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ndalamei laid the paper on the Table.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, during the First and Second Republics, almost the entire infrastructure in Zambia was built by Zambian companies in particular, Minestone. What has changed that we have so many Chinese coming into the industry siphoning our hard-earned taxpayer’s money to develop their country, China?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member is being economical on the truth. The records are there to show that we have had foreign contractors in this country for a long time. The people who constructed the Kariba Dam, Chilenje Township …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: University!

Mr Mulongoti: … and the University of Zambia are foreign companies. Our concern is the quality of work and the capacity of the job. We do not advertise by nationality, but by contractor. We assume that any company that is registered in Zambia becomes a Zambian company by registration. Therefore, Mr Speaker, we have no difficulties in awarding contracts to those with the capacity to do what we expect.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, I always wonder why fatal accidents in Chinese-run companies occur and despite a good number of Chinese working side by side with the Zambians, why is it that the culprits are always Zambian and not a single Chinese?


Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, alertness to dangers at a place of work is personal. If you are not very careful, the chances of getting hurt are high. It cannot be attributed to nationality. I think that kind of approach is unfortunate.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, what is the Government doing to correct the situation that has taken place at Ndola Technical High School that was built in Ndola by a Chinese contractor, but depicts serious poor workmanship?

Hon. Government Member: Mwalibapata fye!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, defects in contracts are there from both Zambian and foreign contractors. It would not be fair to attribute a single mistake to a company just because it carries a name that could be Chinese. When a report is given, we shall attend to it in as fair a manner as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, we heard that there are about seventy-seven projects which are going on now. I would like to find out why one Chinese contractor has been given thirty-five projects. He even admitted to one of your Committees that he is now undertaking thirty-five projects.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, whilst the hon. Member could be privy to information that was given to the Committee, I do not share that privilege with him. However, like I said, my experience, as I go around the country, is that the work culture of our colleagues from China is what makes it very persuasive to consider their bids.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mulongoti: They choose to sleep on site and work very hard whilst the majority of our people would want to finish off at 1700 hours and prolong the work. I do not think we are doing ourselves any justice at all by insinuating that it is because of their nationality. With globalisation, there are no boundaries. If we are not aggressive enough to get contracts in China, tough luck.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, there is overwhelming evidence on the ground that some of the Chinese companies have been exhibiting poor workmanship while some of them have been mistreating our people and paying them poorly. I would like to know what the Government is doing about this.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, this country has laws and in every contract, you will accept the conditions that have been set. If there is any evidence of mistreatment, the Ministry of Labour and Social Services is there to attend to issues of that nature. If the hon. Member has any evidence of that, he is free to go to the Ministry of Labour and Social Services and any other authority which will help to redress the situation. It is not fair for the hon. Member to come and lay a complaint in the House when the people affected need his immediate attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Works and Supply whether there is a developed policy like the one in South Africa called the Black Empowerment Scheme. This policy empowers black-owned companies by giving them contracts. I would like to know whether even, here, in Zambia, through the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), the people can be empowered because by doing so, the money will remain in the country.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, enacting a law like that is a deliberate policy to empower our people. If in the implementation, we were a bit relaxed, we, as Zambians, are to blame. I do not think, at any time, the Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) has removed any clause that is intended to support Zambians and, so as far, as I know, it is lawful to deliberately direct the issue of contracts to Zambians. If we, as a people, do not want to be proactive to defend a legal position which we have been given, it is not good to blame anybody who has come to do business in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.


129. Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the Ministry would build a modern bus stop facility at the Kazungula border post.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, the Government has no immediate plans to build a modern bus station at Kazungula Border Post. This border post is a transit point and a modern bus station may not be ideal as most buses only pass through Kazungula. There are very few buses that start their routes from Kazungula Border Post and an expensive modern bus station may just be a white elephant as very few buses may use it.

Mr Speaker, the urgent needs for the council of Kazungula District are washrooms and a waiting room that can service the travelling passengers at the border. A market could also be ideal for the council as there is a lot of cross border trading at the border post.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, we are trying to make Kazungula a model district and the Ministry of Works and Supply is working very hard to make sure the bridge is erected so that we have a lot of buses passing, including the train. In view of that, does the ministry still think that it is not necessary for Kazungula Border Post to have a bus stop when it is going to be such an important place when the bridge is erected?

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, for the time being, we cannot do that, but we may consider the idea in future.

I thank you, Sir.


130. Mr Sejani asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing:

(a) when the Government launched the Decentralisation Policy; and

(b) what specific steps the Government took to implement the policy.

Mr Musosha: Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the National Decentralisation Policy was approved by Cabinet in November, 2002 and launched by His Excellency the late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., in August, 2004.

Mr Speaker, from the time the policy was launched in 2002, a number of activities have been implemented to operationalise the policy. Some of the activities implemented include the setting up of the institutional framework for implementing the policy and this included the setting up of the Decentralisation Secretariat and sector devolution task forces in sector ministries to oversee the implementation process.

Mr Speaker, let me now dwell on the specific steps taken by the Government to implement the policy.

The first is sensitisation. Mr Speaker, the sensitisation of stakeholders through workshops, print and electronic media has been undertaken while the National Decentralisation Policy has been translated into seven local languages and distributed to all stakeholders. The stakeholders who have been sensitised include, staff in the thirteen sector ministries, Members of Parliament, heads of department at the provincial level, trade unions, media institutions, civic leaders, civil societies organisations, permanent secretaries, communities in general and councils.

Mr Speaker, on local development and planning sub-district structures or Area Development Committees (ADCs), the consensus building process on the type and form of ADCs to be formed has commenced and this will be followed by the legislative review process through the Ministry of Justice. These consultative meetings have been held in the Southern and Eastern provinces and the process will soon be extended to cover the whole country.

Mr Speaker, on fiscal decentralisation and financial reforms, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, working in collaboration with my ministry, is actively pursuing the issue of the debt burden of councils with a view to liquidating the debt before devolution commences. The Government is, also, designing and developing a formula for direct disbursement of grants to councils.

On legal reforms, all relevant pieces of legislation that are not compatible with the National Decentralisation Policy have been identified and will soon be reviewed to allow for participation by the communities.

Mr Speaker, on sector devolution, the transfer of additional mandates with matching resources to councils remains the defining activity for implementing the National Decentralisation Policy. Therefore, sector ministries are still developing sector devolution plans which will define specific functions that will move from the Central Government to the local Government.

On monitoring and evaluation, a national monitoring and evaluation system is being developed and this will be facilitated by the creation of a data base and formation of provincial assessment teams.

Mr Speaker, finally, the Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP) has been revised and submitted to Cabinet office for approval. It is hoped that once the DIP which is the road for the implementation of the policy is approved, the ministry will move faster to implement the remaining activities in the implementation process.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sejani: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister tell this House that there is sufficient political will to implement the Decentralisation Policy that was adopted seven years ago when all that has happened so far are just preparations for take off. There have been sensitisation workshops with no real progress to talk about. Can he tell this House that there is sufficient political will from this Government to implement this policy?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I want to begin by assuring the hon. Minister that there is sufficient political will to fully implement this policy. Let me take time to explain this. This policy is very complex, therefore, we need consultation and go step by step to ensure that when something is done, today, we do not reverse it the next day. There are three phases that we have to go through and we have already passed some of the phases.

The period between 2002 to 2005 was the preparatory stage where the activities included the approval of the policy itself as well as the launch of the policy and establishment of the secretariat for the day to day implementation of the policy.

The second phase was from 2006 to 2010 and this was finalisation of the policy as well as the grafting of the implementation plan. A mid-term review of the policy will be undertaken during this phase. The last phase, which is from 2011 to 2012, will be a consolidation phase that will ensure that all the gains are consolidated and the secretariat is phased out and the implementation of the policy takes root fully.

Mr Speaker, in addition to that, the policy requires to firstly build capacity in the councils so that the councils are able to handle an increased volume of work as well as complicated volume of work, including financial matters. The other reason there may be a delay is because of consultations going on between the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and Cabinet to ensure that functions that we need to be devolved to the local authorities are identified and given the necessary facilities for them to be performed at the local level. In this regard, I want to say that the Ministry of Education has done very well because some of the functions under that ministry, including procurement of certain facilities, are done by or through the local authorities. Other ministries are at different in stages in terms of developing the plan for devolution of functions.

Mr Speaker, let me also add that this policy is part of the Public Reform Programme as announced in November, 1993 under which various ministries have been restructured and are now have very competent and competitively chosen officers manning various departments of the ministries.

The last phase under the same Public Reform Programme is decentralisation and certainly, we are on course. The plan for devolution in the reform will take a significant step in 2010 so that by 2011, we should be ready and finally, in 2012, we shall have the plan in place.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I do not know whether hon. Ministers recall what they say in this House, but hon. Members of Parliament keep records of what is said in this House. The former hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing mentioned on the Floor of this House that the process of consultations on the Decentralisation Policy was through. Now, I am wondering who is speaking the truth between the new hon. Minister and the former hon. Minister. May the hon. Minister be specific to inform this House the actual position on the Decentralisation Policy.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, there is no contradiction between what we have just said and what my colleague said before. What we said and what is happening today, is that there are a lot of activities going on, including capacity building, in the local authorities for them to be able to competently handle matters that are very complicated.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that since 1964, we have been operating under a centralised system and to dismantle that system and devolve some of the functions to local authorities is not something that we can do over a year or two years. It requires time. The good thing is that we are on course and very committed through this programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: The Hon. Member for Lusaka Central. He is not interested anymore.

Dr Scott stood up.


Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Kwacha.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, the Decentralisation Policy has been talked about for a very long time and from the answer that the Acting Leader of Government Business has indicated, it was formulated about seven years ago. Will the hon. Minister indicate to us what the roadmap is. When should we expect this to be actualised rather than telling us about workshops and so on and so forth and that plans have been drawn. What is the roadmap?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I do not think I mentioned workshops in my answer. I did not …


Dr Mwansa: … mention any workshops, but I gave a detailed work plan which included three phases and we are now settling into the last phase. So just be patient, hon. Member, this will be done and as I said, there is political will and some of the aspect of the policy have been implemented and are going very well in various ministries such as the Ministry of Education which I mentioned earlier.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minster of Local Government and Housing whether he is now informing the nation that the Decentralisation Implementation Plan, which has been with the Government for consideration for the last three years, has now been approved.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, the document in question is at the Cabinet Office. It has not yet been presented to Cabinet, but we hope that within this year or next year, it will be adopted by Cabinet.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, the reason decentralisation is not succeeding is that it seeks to decentralise functions and leaves political power at the centre. Would the hon. Minister or the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House in view of the fact that in his answer he mentioned the word devolution several times, state whether the Government has plans to move away from decentralisation, which is meaningless, to devolution.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, devolution is part of decentralisation. It just means isolating the functions which should be left at the centre. In this case, the various ministries and which functions will be surrendered by the ministries so as to be performed by local authorities. This activity is on going, including the Legal Reforms. There are a lot of laws that we have to amend to make sure that we dismantle the current centralised system we operate under.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in explaining the road map, the hon. Minister, if I quoted him correctly, stated that some of the functions of the Ministry of Education have been devoted to the local authorities. I am an active participant in the Luanshya Municipal Council. May I know the functions that the councils are performing on behalf of the Ministry of Education. I would also like the hon. Minister to confirm that there is a lot of resistance from ministries to implement the Decentralisation Policy.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I did not say devoted, but devolved and the two words are certainly different.

Hon. MMD Members: Chizungu.

Dr Mwansa: However, the hon. Member must take interest in what is going on in his constituency. There are various functions which are performed by local authorities on behalf of the Ministry of Education. These include small contracts of infrastructure rehabilitation as well as procurement of items of small amounts.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has said that the policy has been translated into our seven main local languages and sent to stakeholders. I would like to find out who these stakeholders in the country are because by yesterday, councilors in Kazungula District, in which Katombola Constituency is, had not received any copy of the policy in Tonga for them to go and discuss with the people.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, in our answer, we mentioned, among other institutions, trade unions, the media, civil society leaders and councils. If Katombola Constituency has not received copies of the policy, we will look into the matter and ensure that it receives copies of the translated policy and I thank the hon. Member for bringing that to our attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I would like to just guide the hon. House. I keep referring to the fact that we have one of the best Parliamentary libraries in Africa. In there, you can, among other things, study what is known as political science or the elements of political science. With regard to this very subject, you should zero in on the following political systems: what a confederation is; what a federation is and what a unitary State is.

From there, find out how, in these three State systems, power has been devolved away from the centre. Through that study, find out on your own whether it is easy or complex to devolve power in a unitary State. I will not give you the answer because you should study for yourselves.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

__________ {mospagebreak}



(Debate resumed)

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I must say that it is most dispiriting to stand to debate this Motion when the hon. Members of the Front Bench on your right are conspicuously absent. Yesterday, a point of order was raised on the few numbers of hon. Cabinet Ministers and the hon. Deputy Speaker ruled that the hon. Deputy Ministers would be taking notes for their superiors. I did not notice any taking of notes and I hope …


Mr Speaker: Order!

Since there was a ruling on this matter, yesterday, follow that ruling and take it that the hon. Deputy Ministers were taking notes in their hearts.


Mr Speaker: Besides, this Motion has been moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. It will be his ultimate responsibility to reply to whatever you will be debating in the House. Of course, I appreciate the need for the presence of all hon. Cabinet Ministers here so that they can hear for themselves the arguments that they will be adducing as part of debate on this Motion. You have, however, no fear to debate this Motion even if a particular hon. Cabinet Minister you wish to advise may appear to be absent in the Chamber. The hon. Member for Lusaka Central is free to debate as if all the hon. Cabinet Ministers were here.

You may continue, please.

Dr Scott: I will try to put myself in the advised frame of mind, Sir. When Moses came down from Mount Sinai, and I am now talking historically, he brought with him the Ten Commandments or laws engraved in stone. He had no possibility of extemporisation to say that he thought the prohibition of adultery is alright unless the woman is very attractive, then it would be acceptable.


Dr Scott: He was given a text in stone and he gave it word for word, verbatim we must assume, to the Israelites and it was thence recorded into the Holy Bible as was given.

I have always tended to regard the Budget Address document as cast in stone because it is a very serious document which affects the livelihood of every single person in Zambia in terms of paying tax or through the buying of a bar of soap.
It is, therefore, a little disconcerting that the hon. Minister chose to extemporise the various points while reading not only from his document, but also getting some help from  the teleprompter which is newly  found technology that we have never seen in this House. He was adding people’s names which were not in the document …


Dr Scott: … and also what can only be called cadre-type remarks. For example, he said he had set aside money for Lusaka’s drainage system which, according to him, the Patriotic Front (PF) controlled council has failed to work on. He knows perfectly well that the PF controlled council cannot execute major engineering works without the full co-operation of the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and Ministry of Finance and National Planning which he controls.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: That is the reality, but he thought he was in Kasama when he was in Lusaka.


Dr Scott: This is part of the reason I feel a bit disconcerted because we are here to co-operatively perfect and approve this Budget. We are here to govern our country and if some people have found it difficult to know when to be statesmen or cadres, then it can discombobulate everything. It causes people so to speak to go on strike and say, well, if he wants to argue, we are not going to participate in the discussion. This unfortunately was part of what happened yesterday. To add to it all, we had an hon. Deputy Minister who was leaping up and down on technical points of order to try and throw the seconder of the Motion off her rhythm. This was not helpful in changing the mood that was in the House.

Having said this, I want to make one point on health and one on agriculture. There is one hon. Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives here and so he should listen carefully.

Mr Speaker, I have tried my best to understand the health segment of this Budget. I have consulted other economists on what it all means. The only thing we agreed on is that taking into account inflation when comparing the health budget between the years 2009 and 2010 with the 10 per cent taken off it, represents a reduction of 30 per cent in real terms. Now this does not square with what the hon. Minister said about resources having been redirected from other sectors to health. It does not even square with the threat to the health sector which we know exists since donors have stopped funding this sector. I feel it is just simply a matter of complaining to the donors and asking them to look at the impact of what they have done. I mean it is always as if you are trying play a chicken and say, right, we are going to cut off our nose, but shall keep our face, unless you quickly help us keep the nose on.

What we need to know is the real story in the health sector. What money has been withheld, what money has not been withheld and what money has been brought in from elsewhere in the budget to provide essential services to a population which maybe more healthy slightly than it was in 2009, but it is not 30 per cent less requiring of inputs. I would plead with the hon. Minister that he provides to the House through the Committee on Estimates the big picture of what is going on regarding the health budget.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: A 30 per cent reduction to a vital sector is unheard of, especially since the other sectors have either maintained their levels or gone slightly upwards. It is not as if the whole budget has shrunk.

While he is at it, perhaps he could also bear in mind that there have been frequent complaints from hon. Members that large chunks of money for health are floating around the wrong circles like, for example, the global fund. It is going through non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and so forth, outside the Government books. These funds do not appear in the Yellow Book. However, they should know that money for Zambia should be spent on Zambians. This House has the right to know what the big picture is. What is at stake? What amounts of money are in banks, but are not going through Government institutions? How much is going were and what is Government doing to compliment it? We need a clear picture.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Otherwise I think the pact will stand on principle regarding the health budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: We will demand for a division and refuse to vote for that particular issue. I do not think that would be a very good precedent.

Sir, I have just a quick word about values which I want to share with this House. I know some things from local history that some people sometimes do not know. In 1952, I believe, I maybe wrong by a year, the white Southern Rhodesian Government passed a law called the Native Land Husbandry Act. The purpose of this law was to rationalise the following state of affairs - thousands of British servicemen from the Second World War  had immigrated into Rhodesia. They preferred to stay there because it was a colony of Britain. This place was a protectorate and they had disguised many of their indigenous farmers and put them together in mostly second white land. They thought to themselves, “These indigenous farmers do not use the land efficiently. They do not even get the yields that the white commercial farmers are getting and so let us limit the amount of land they have and that will force them to be more efficient.” What happened in practice is that the farmers who were mostly affected loaded their cattle, families and furniture into railway trucks and came into Zambia, then Northern Rhodesia. It was easy for them because the federation was intact. All they had to do was enter into various agreements with various chiefs, especially in Southern and Central provinces. After making these agreements, they settled down and continued farming as if nothing had happened. These are the people we know as maze zulu even though they are not. Maze zulu a dialect from the Shona, but those people are much more widespread than that. I would like the hon. Minister to be aware that the strategy of saying, well, last year, we gave 250 or 1,000,000 loaves of bread, this year, we are going to cut it by more than half and that makes now 500 loaves of bread…


Dr Scott: … when you expect higher results is a risky way of managing things. You can only good produce when you put expect good results when you put in high input and good management. Engaging in high risk …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … as practiced by commercial farmers is wrong. What will happen is that the fertiliser will be spread wider and wider amongst many farmers. It is already spread far too thinly on eight bags a pack because people want more than one hectare of maize…

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: … while going up against the constraints placed by soil acidity and so forth. They do not want to get kicked by anything and they will just be spreading the fertiliser wider. If they can take a train and find free fertiliser in the Democratic Republic of Congo, then maybe that is what they must do, but if they cannot, this particular scheme as the English say is adding to nothing. It is a very poor scheme indeed and it does not reflect any of the historical information that we have about the way farmers respond with respect to factors of production.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: I am very concerned, Mr Speaker, about what might be called the monetary policy that was sketched. I think this is the right word since it is not the Government or the Bank of Zambia, but the hon. Minister who did lay out the monetary policy for Zambia. What we essentially have is a combination of very high interest rates, a strong kwacha and emerging Government debt.

We encourage speculators to bring dollars to Zambia to buy kwacha and lend it to the Government at between 20 and 30 per cent.

Sir, does one wonder why the Chinese are winning contracts in Zambia? They do it easily. They are accessing finance from their home country at maybe 5 per cent the commercial rate. A contractor in Zambia cannot access money from his own home bank at less than 30 per cent interest.

Hon. Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Therefore, we have killed − sorry, kill is not parliamentary. We have crippled our domestic industry at the expense of a strong kwacha which means high interest rates and our dependency on foreign direct investment which we are even boosting with tax breaks and tax free zones. In practice, Zambians do not have access to these incentives, whatever the theory is.

Mr Speaker, Hon. Vernon Mwaanga talked about a Zambian investor when he went to China. When one invests around the world and compares Zambia to China, one would find it strange that a Zambian, in his own country, would borrow at 30 per cent and struggle to compete with people who have subsidised foreign exchange markets such that loans are accessible to them.

Mr Speaker, I think that the hon. Minister should justify that all these things crippling the local industry, the export sectors, other than the traditional ones, are justifiable in the name of stability and fight against inflation. No one is suggesting that we get the Zimbabwean inflation rate, but there are certain degrees we can copy from others and these things trade off against each other. Our exchange rate is not being properly balanced at the moment.

Mr Speaker, inflation is caused by people demanding high wages which cannot be sustained. Inflation is triggered by the wage push and not created by exchange rates, except as a transient measure.

Mr Speaker, I would like to say something about certain projects. This is a mysterious document in that it reads as if a multinational firm is investing in a farm block and entering into a contract with that German investor, …


Dr Scott: … who is providing a road for that game park or other tourist developments. I do not believe this is the way a Government normally runs. I do not believe Governments normally point to specific projects and enterprises and say that it will do this and that. Yes, in the old days the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia was a project of a socialist Government, but today, we have a Chicago style free market economy. Why is it not simply setting the perimeters? There many dangers inherent here.

For example, you allocate 400 thousand hectares, which is a million acres, to an investor who says he or she will grow Jatropha and develop it into organic diesel. There are many things that can go wrong. It may be that the price of oil may not rise on the world market sufficiently to justify the organic alternatives. You can go to the Western Province and count again, as am sure the hon. Minister has done, all the Cashew trees that provide enough shade, but no nuts.

Mr Speaker, agricultural projects can go wrong. Soils can go wrong. Insects can infest and the project can fail. What happens then? You have an investor to whom you have given land, which anywhere else in the world would be worth US$100 million. Is the investor obliged to hand it back to the traditional owners who originally supplied it to him or her or hand it back to the Government? Are they just lucky owners who are enjoying “heaven on earth” like the people who many years ago were given large chunks of Zambian real estate. Are we protecting ourselves against the fact that failure can happen?

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister thinks that we will be sitting, drinking gin and tonic at Kasaba Bay while watching pukus.


Dr Scott: He may be right, but he may be wrong too.  Projects of many sorts in this world fail. The reason you do not see it in the private sector is because when they fail, they die and disappear as there is nobody to subsidise the loses that they make.

Mr Speaker, for every successful farmer in Zambia today, there are 10 others who have gone bankrupt, but we do not see them. They are either politicians or kapenta fishermen. Failure is an option or a distinct possibility in any project that you can think of. I am worried that this Government seems to think that everything it has thought of is going to work and it must work. That is what the United National Independence Party (UNIP) thought. That is why you are still lumbered with political demands to reopen and refurbish factories which should have been allowed to die fifty years ago or never have been born.

Mr Speaker, I notice that we are now down to seven hon. Ministers. With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I want to start by saying that I have a problem with the way the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government crafts themes of budgets. For example, the theme this year is “Enhancing Growth through Competitiveness and Diversification.”

Mr Speaker, the Government must move from mere words. Diversification is not achieved by putting a theme that does not really achieve any results with no clear deliverables and inputs which help us to achieve this diversification.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, diversification will only be achieved with sectoral emphasis. What sectors of the economy will bring about diversification? It is not clear in this Budget Speech. The introduction of Multi-facility Economic Zones (MFEZs) is not diversification. It will not achieve the diversification we yearn for. We need sustainable diversification. When we want to diversify our economy, we must know what our resource endowments are. From mining, it is land. Our next comparative advantage is in sectors such as agriculture.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: That fact is not reflected here. Tourism is also not looked at in the Budget Speech in terms of it being a comparative advantage.

Mr Speaker, this Government is not aiming at diversification because it simply has no plans for it. There are no matching resources to achieve diversification of the economy.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This is the tragedy of this MMD Government. It does not understand what is supposed to be done. We need strong moves to achieve diversification. What you have done in this Budget cannot lead to the diversification of the economy and I will demonstrate to you on a point by point basis.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, if we are going to continue spreading resources thinly like they are doing year in and year out, we will not achieve anything. When you run an economy, you need particular emphasis on certain areas.

Let me give an example of Botswana. For about twenty years, Botswana aimed at accumulating enough reserves.  There used to be no tarmac in Botswana, but it had a very rough strategy. After accumulating reserves of US$6 billion in foreign accounts, it began to roll out an infrastructure development programme. Botswana has just developed its infrastructure in the last ten years because it had a very ambitious strategy. This Government has no ambitious strategy and we, as a country, will never achieve diversification under the MMD Government.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Let me cite as an example the use of the equipment that was sent to the provinces. If a road is just graded, money is wasted because a little more has to be done. The road has to be formed, gravel has to be put and then compact it. It is better to work on a 20km stretch that is done well than 100km that is not well done and would be washed away when rains come. This 100 km is tantamount to wastage. From that simple concept the Government must learn how to address issues of diversification.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, let me give an example of the road sector. I am very disappointed with the Government because there is a serious backlog in the road sector every year. Every time the Government presents the Budget, the money for roads is not explicit. It is hidden under Loans and Investment. If you check in the Yellow Book, you cannot even debate properly. It means you do not give due emphasis on the road sector.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, roads are like veins. If the veins are defective, the body is dysfunctional.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: This economy is dysfunctional because the tubes that run the economy are defective or blocked. Until you open up the road infrastructure, we shall not see development.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, for example, at one particular point in my constituency, people were paying about K15,000 from Monze to Munyenze when the road was bad. I have worked on five kilometres and the bus fares have dropped. Therefore, when you open up our country with good roads, even the cost of doing business in the rural areas reduces. That is a fact.

Hon. Opposition Members: hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: However, you are only concerned that the cost of doing business for foreigners should be cheaper, but the people who will drive this economy in the long term are Zambians. That is why you cannot rely on multi-facility economic zones (MFEZs) because investors can easily fly to Angola if it offers them good incentives, and leave those structures as white elephants. It is not sustainable. It is only sectors that are driven by Zambians which are sustainable in a long term.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Do not be excited about the MFEZs because investors can fly away overnight.

Sir, this year, the road sector has been allocated K1.3 trillion. The budget for the road sector, at the moment, should have been K2.5 trillion for us to undertake meaningful road repairs in the country. The K1.2 trillion that has been provided is too little to do anything in this country. For example, if the Government knew what to do this year, it could have concentrated on the road works while other projects could have been put on hold. The Government could have provided K3 trillion to be used on the road works for the next three years. If the Government continues to thinly spread its resources, it will not achieve anything in twenty years.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: There will be nothing to write about this Government when it is out of office after twenty years.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, the reforms in the road sector are welcome. For example, the creation of the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA) and Road Development Agency (RDA) is welcome. It was a good idea to remove them from the mainstream Civil Service because they were not delivering. For example, the creation of parastatals like the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) has worked well. More money is being collected than when it was a Government Department and the same goes for the road sector. However, the mistake we have made in the road sector is to create an institution that is just spending money. This is the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA). You cannot create an institution for just paying cheques.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Even your own Indaba recommended that the NRFA should be abolished because it is a useless super structure that is just sucking taxpayers money …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … to write cheques.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: It is denying money to the RDA which is the operational arm in our road sector. Therefore, the NRFA must be abolished forthwith. You can write cheques from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: There is the RDA to run roads and award contracts. We do not need the NRFA. In fact, with the backlog that we have now in the road sector, it is even better to abolish it and create another institution to handle road equipment. This could be the rural and urban roads authority, for example. Very little is happening in our urban and rural areas. Let the RDA work on the main trunk roads, but create another authority with a very thin top structure for the rural and urban roads and do away with the NRFA.

Mr Speaker, right now, there is a mess over this road equipment. I must state that it was a bad purchase. You cannot buy Chinese equipment which is not tested to work on our roads.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: For example, the equipment got burnt in Monze.

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo, Mudala, apopene!

Hon. Government Member: Where?

Mr Hamududu: Yes, in Hon. Mwiimbu’s constituency, it got burnt completely.

Mr D. Mwila: Yaba, to ashes!

Mr Hamududu: To ashes. Yes, that is a fact. I am saying this in front of Mr Speaker. Yes, the fire just started from underneath and the driver was told to come out. The whole thing got burnt to ashes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Hamududu: I would like to tell you that there is tested equipment that can be used for making roads in Zambia. You cannot just go to unknown territories and get funny brands.


Mr Hamududu: Let me also talk about servicing. I would like say that this equipment needs a lot of money. This was a wrong purchase because we do not have the capacity to service funny types of equipment.

 For example, when I was working on a road in Monze, every time the equipment had a problem, we had to look for a Chinese in Lusaka and, sometimes, that person was in China.


Mr Hamududu: There is tested road equipment in our country from Germany and Britain. You know them. You cannot buy just because someone is twisting your arm over MFEZs or is giving you a grant, when he has made the money to invest in Chambishi from your copper. That money is being raised from here. That US $900 million which you are talking about, as being an investment from China, is being raised here, right there in Chambishi, and no one is bringing in that money. Therefore, we must not be hoodwinked and accept a grant. That was a careless purchase, I must say.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Ndalamei!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, let me also comment on the equipment that is in our provinces. The regime under which this equipment is operating is wrong. Right now, it is the Permanent Secretary who is trying to push things. There is no dedicated structure to run this equipment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: There is need for us to put a statutory professional body to do that. I think that is the way to go. We have done it with ZRA, RDA and Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) because the mainstream Government has a lot of inefficiencies. We cannot leave this equipment under the mainstream Government because, right now, there is confusion. There is no tangible work that this equipment is doing in our areas. Therefore, we need an organised structure that will run this equipment. Otherwise, it will be very costly because there are no serious programmes from the Government and there is a lot of political interference …

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: … because the Permanent Secretary is operating under the whims of a Provincial Deputy Minister. We want professionalism. When there is an election, the equipment is removed. We want professionalism because we want to follow programmes that are properly set out. If we continue under the current regime, that equipment will be wasted and it is already beginning to show.

Mr Speaker, let me comment on the agricultural sector. I would like to say that this Government signed the Maputo Declaration where they agreed that they would allocate 10 per cent of their budget to agriculture, but that has fallen short. You have allocated K1.1 trillion when 10 per cent could have been K1.6 trillion. That is achievable and we can do it. I will tell you in a little while where we can save money.

Mr Mwiimbu: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I do not agree with the distortions in policies that are made by this Government.  I believe that all small-scale farmers must receive equal input dosage.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: I do not understand why the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives can stand up and start arguing. I think some people are not in touch with reality. Some of us were raised from the rural areas and we are linked there. We understand what is going on there. It is very painful to see one person get subsidised inputs while the other does not, in the same village, and yet they are facing the same price on the market. That is distortion. Some farmers are getting bankrupt while for a few of them, it is plain sailing with that kind of subsidy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Hamududu: This subsidy must address all that category of farmers. Please, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives must stop using co-operatives and associations. Let me tell you one of the dangers. It is wastage. Right now, some clever people in these areas are forming co-operatives and taking advantage of the old women and people who are not educated in the rural areas. Every year, they ask for a membership fee and money for shares. Some of you, who have constituencies and visit them like I do, know about that. I was in my constituency last week and I am going there on Sunday, like I always do. This is a reality.

Mr Speaker, last week, I was in Kalundwa and people were telling me that they pay K50,000 to co-operatives. It is a condition that people should pay that amount to a co-operative. They have to pay a K50,000 for membership and K150,000 for shares. Shares are for the business of the co-operative and yet there is no business going on. These leaders are pocketing that money. The poor farmer under your regime is supposed to pay about K200,000 or K250,000 for a half pack of fertiliser. They are spending K250,000 for membership and shares and, also, they must look for money to buy fertiliser. That is a fact in your constituencies.

Sir, we told the ministry to deal with the farmers directly. The camp officers must register farmers and give them what they need. It must not be done through those zombie co-operatives which are stealing money from our people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Stop that system because it is wastage. The truth is there. When you stay too much in power, you stop listening. Is that the way governments come to an end? I was one of those who fought the United National Independence Party (UNIP) Government. The UNIP Government had stopped listening. I do not know what happened. Maybe, it is the inevitable cycle of life. You do not listen. I know you will stand up and give points of order but these are facts.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, we were told that the inputs would be delivered by august. That was a presidential assurance. Right now, farmers have not received their inputs. Farmers who are in areas where there are by-elections such as Kasama and Chitambo have already received their inputs. My brother, Hon. Musonda, welcome to the House. You are very lucky for having a by-election and your farmers have got inputs. Ours have not received even a single bag.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I hope the Kasama residents are listening. They should vote wisely because they will be cheated.

Sir, I passed through my constituency last weekend and there was a heavy downpour in Gonwe and Luyaba. People are busy ploughing and preparing their fields. There are no inputs and yet, you are saying that the inputs are in the sheds. What is the problem with the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives? You are failing to shake up the system. It seems you have no stamina to shake up the Civil Service to deliver. Unfortunately, I have never heard of any leader ready to say, “I am tired and I want to stop.” The decent ones can say, “I am tired”, like the great Nelson Mandela. Even when he was loved, he said, “I will only be there for five years and then take leave. Let the young ones run the country.” You will continue insisting even when you know that your body cannot allow you to be in such a busy position.


Mr Hamududu: There is even a retirement age.


Mr Speaker: Order!

I only want to hear what the hon. Member is debating. If you want to debate, you wait and I shall give you the Floor.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I want to say something on the diversification of our economy, especially now when we are leaning towards a capitalist economy. When I was coming from town, I could see that the economy looks a bit shiny for a few people. The majority of our people are living in serious poverty. You must use your fiscal policy to redistribute resources.

Sir, you cannot have sixty-six ministers for nothing. Really, I can give you an example. Botswana is also a large country. Last time when I checked on the website, I discovered that they have sixteen Cabinet Ministers and three Assistant Ministers. In total, they are nineteen. When we add the President and the Vice-President, they come to twenty-one and the country is running. Definitely, you know that the Permanent Secretaries are the ones who do the job. I want to give an example. The biggest ministries here are the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Education. Each of these ministries has one hon. deputy minister. The Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development has two deputy ministers. If their appointment has to do with the volume of work, what is the logic?

Sir, the ministries which are very busy, such the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, have one Deputy Minister and in small ministries, such as the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, they have two Deputy Ministers. There is no logic. I want to tell all my colleagues that you will still remain hon. Members of Parliament. You will give this country a great honour by sending a message that you are serious about cost cutting. You can go to your caucuses and agree on this. You will still remain in the House and you will not lose jobs. Please, volunteer to reduce your cabinet. This country can run with thirty ministers, fifteen deputy ministers and fifteen cabinet ministers. We can even do without deputies if we are serious. You must send a strong signal like what the late President did on corruption. He sent out a strong signal and we were respected. What is your theme?

Mr Muntanga: Zero!

Mr Hamududu: It is not about fighting corruption or cutting costs. As a Government, what is your theme for the people to understand that you are serious? You must show seriousness. We must fight poverty and have a strong tax system. We should get the money and help the poor people. This Government is top-heavy. There are so many vacancies in outlying areas where real work is done, but in your ministries and at Cabinet Office, you are busy employing. One Secretary can serve both a hon. Minister and his deputy. We need more people to collect money in Shang’ombo and all those borders. 

Hon. Government Members: Theory!

Mr Hamududu: Ok, say, “theory”. Very soon, you will face the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Go ahead.

Mr Speaker, finally, I would like to say that the Road Development Agency (RDA) was accused of over procuring. The over procurement was because people were in dire need. It is us who pushed them to do that. We told them that they must give the people more resources to cope with their needs. That over procurement was an indication that they wanted to do more work, but you were not giving them enough money. I want you to reflect on these things very seriously.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me an opportunity to contribute on the Budget Address by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. Over the weekend, I was in Kasama to participate in the campaign which is going on there.

Mr Speaker: Order! Take your seat. I have heard about campaigns in Kasama quite a few times. We are not in Kasama. We are in the Chamber of the National Assembly of Zambia. Debate the Motion before you. There are people who are campaigning in Kasama now. Leave them to campaign in Kasama. They will not be talking about what is happening here. Their emphasis is Kasama. For all of you in this House, debate this Motion. I will not want to hear “Kasama” anymore, from the left side of the House or from the right side of the House. Debate the Motion. You may continue or, in fact, begin.


Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, thank you for that guidance. From the onset, I find it a bit difficult to appreciate the Budget Address because the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning sounded very casual on the mining sector. If anything, nothing much has been said or spoken on the sector and yet the hon. Minister if fully aware that mining is the cornerstone of the Zambian economy. This Budget cannot be a document without revenue being collected from the mining sector. As much as he has mentioned “diversification” thirteen times in his address, until other sectors are fully developed and surpass revenue earnings from the mines, the mining sector remains a very important one above all else.

Mr Speaker, my constituency is in a mining area. We are not going to accept this kind of treatment. Despite producing so much revenue for the national coffers, we are least thought of and nothing is ever apportioned for infrastructure development in my area. I have bemoaned the state of our once beautiful city which is now a ghost town on several occasions on the Floor of this House but it all falls on their fears. 
Mr Speaker, Section 136 of the 2009 Mines and Minerals Act talks about mineral royalty sharing. The people in the mining areas pushed for this clause in the Act and hoped that it would help in mitigating the number of issues affecting them, for instance, street lighting, road rehabilitation, recreation development, rehabilitation and construction of schools and clinics. These areas could be addressed with a meager agreed upon share of 40 per cent of the mineral royalty tax. This share could assist in constructing better and habitable palaces for our chiefs who, despite so much wealth being extracted from their areas, have not benefited nothing.

Mr Speaker, I challenge this Government to outline what benefits our people and the chiefs on the Copperbelt in the semi precious stones mining areas have benefited. I suspect that the hon. Minister’s avoidance to speak on the mining sector was to try and avoid bringing up the issue of the mineral royalty sharing. On behalf of the people I represent, I shall not stop talking about it as this is law and it must be effected. I am aware that colossal amounts of money have been collected from 1st April to date. The Zambian people would want to know how much has been collected, so far, and in which account this money is being kept.

Mr Speaker, I am suspicious of the fact that this Government could be using this money to campaign in the up coming by-elections without the consent of the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is very much aware and I have reminded him of this on several occasions. All he has had to say in response is that they will soon announce the dates. Time is running out and so is our patience. Lafarge is sweating because of the environmental fund. Very soon, we shall take the same course with the mining companies. 

Mr Speaker, it is interesting to note that the hon. Minister has allocated K60.9billion for the rehabilitation of urban roads, if not re-construction, as most of the roads are extremely bad in Kitwe and Ndola. At first, I saw a gleam of hope, but after serious reflection, I discovered that the horrible Minister was just mocking the people of Kitwe …


Mr Mwenya: …and Ndola.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, above all, it is the entire Copperbelt.

Mr Speaker, for the past two consecutive years, the Road Development Agency (RDA) has advertised roads in Kitwe and Ndola and is aware of the cost required to do the few roads which were identified and tenders were floated in the press.

Mr Speaker, for Kitwe alone, the estimated costs for the few roads that were identified is about K80billion. The lowest tender was about K90billion for Kitwe alone, and you are expecting the same figure for the Ndola roads. We have received poor contractors who have left very bad road works and …

Dr Musonda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker:  A point of order is raised.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hmmn, apapene?

Hon. Opposition Member: Bwacha bwangu.


Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I really need your serious ruling on a very serious matter. The hon. Member on the Floor referred to the hon. Minister as horrible. Is he in order to use such terms in this august House?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chitambo is raising a point of order which is designed to assist the Presiding Officer ensure that debate flows properly. According to him, the hon. Member who is debating referred to the hon. Minister as … did he say horrible Minister?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Is that what the House heard?

Hon. Government Members: Yes.

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mr Speaker: One side says “no.”


Mr Speaker: The other side of the House says “yes.” Alright, let me assume that was a slip of the tongue ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Speaker: …and not by design.

The word is honourable. The letter “H” in honourable is silent. If you stress the letter “H”, it may sound like horrible.


Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: I have compensated you with your one minute. Now, there is no excuse.

When I suspended business, I had just concluded a brief ruling on whether the title we are known by both inside and outside the House was properly pronounced. The conclusion was that there was a possible slip of the tongue by the hon. Member for Nkana, who was then contributing to the debate on the Motion by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that this House do resolve into Committee of Supply to deal with next year’s National Budget.

May the hon. Member for Nkana continue, please.

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, before business was suspended, I was talking about the K60.9bilion allocated to Kitwe and Ndola for the rehabilitation of urban roads. I said that this money was not adequate at all. The tenders that were received by the RDA in Kitwe amounted to K80billion.

Mr Speaker, in the past, we have received poor contractors who have left very bad road works and have gone away with billions of kwacha. This time, we shall not allow this. We want to see proper roads, carried with proper storm drainages and constructed just the way it is being done in Lusaka.

Mr Speaker, the mine road along Central Street through Chibuluma creates a by-pass for truckers and connects Livingstone and Nakonde to the Democratic Republic of Congo, Angola, the Luapula and the North-Western provinces. It is a very strategic route and contributes significantly to the flow of all goods. It, therefore, requires urgent attention. Just this road will gobble the K60.9, which has been allocated.

Mr Speaker, I wish to appeal to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning  to consider allocating a little more, probably, to about K120 billion to road works so that we can see our roads done once and for all.

Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister also spoke of the pay as you earn (P. A. Y. E) exempt threshold from K700,000 to K800,000 per month. He went further to speculate that this measure will retain K85billion back in the pockets of workers. Is this not a mockery when 80 per cent of lowly paid workers are receiving less than K400,000 per month?

Sir, some Zambian workers working for Chinese companies are getting as low as K250,000 per month. Could the hon. Minister illustrate how the K85billion will enter the pockets of the lowly paid and the retrenched workers? The hon. Minister should also be very careful in the manner he brings out these issues because this is like adding salt to injury. How I wish he had a chance to visit the mining areas and see for himself the amount of suffering our brothers and sisters are enduring.

Mr Speaker, to me, this threshold is a mockery to a worker and does not affect the Government coffers or benefit any worker. How many physically challenged persons who are in employment, today, will be able to benefit from the so-called tax credit allocated for the differently abled persons from K900,000 to K1,560,000 per year? They are very few. We need to be talking about creating employment for disabled persons and not this mockery that we are receiving.

Mr Speaker, Buchi/Kamitondo, which is in Kitwe, is the oldest township where people are still using pit latrines. For the past three years, I have been pushing Nkana Water and Sewerage to find ways of coming up with waterborne toilets in our area. For sure, God blessed us when the African Development Bank (ADB) approved a loan for the construction of these toilets in Buchi/Kamitondo.

I was so sure, according to what we were informed that by August, this year, the construction of these toilets would have commenced. I had anticipated that the hon. Minister would have mentioned how much the Government had received or acquired as loan for this project. Unfortunately, the project has not taken off.

Mr Speaker, I am skeptical that Government is now holding back on this project so that it can come and use it as a campaign ploy in 2011. We should not subject the people of Buchi/Kamitondo and Kwacha, where my colleague, Hon. Lombe Mulenga comes from, to such dehumanising conditions. We have lost our beloved ones because of diseases like cholera and typhoid. We would want to see this project commence before the onset of the rain season.

Mr Speaker, let me now talk about the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). The CDF is the only money that is helping us to bring a bit of sanity in our constituencies. For example, with the K400 million that was allocated to Nkana, we were able to construct a modern clinic in Kamakonde, we were able to commence the construction of the bridge in Mindolo, we completed a toilet at Kawama Basic School, we rehabilitated a few roads in Buchi/Kamitondo and we lit up the street lights in Twibukishe and Nkana West to mention just a few. Therefore, I wish to appeal to the hon. Minister that the K650 million is not adequate. Therefore, it has to be considered. We had hoped that this time around, the hon. Minister was going to consider giving K1 billion to each constituency because that would go a long way to lessen the suffering of the people.

 Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Mr Speaker, lastly, the Budget Cycle has changed. Therefore, we expect that the Government is going to be committed because it asked for this and we have supported it all the way. We expect that come 1st January, 2010, all contractors, especially those who will be doing the road works in Nkana and Kabushi, in Ndola, will be on site as we would want to see the work commence.

Secondly, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning alluded to the fact that the K600 million was released expediently. I do not agree with him. I, therefore, differ with him because to date that money has not reached our constituencies. You can only claim that the money was released in good time if that money had already reached our constituencies. Therefore, when you tell us   that this money is with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, how do you expect us to believe whether this money has even moved from office to the Ministry of Local Government and Housing? Probably, this is just a mere joke. Therefore, we would want to see the K600 million in our constituencies. We also believe that after you have revised the K650 million to K1 billion, we expect that it should also be released in the first week of January, 2010. I believe that is the essence of coming up with a new Budget Cycle.

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I thank you.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to make a brief contribution on the wonderful budget speech that was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, as a Government, we are trying to be transparent. This is why those who do not understand transparency have difficulties when we provide details on what we are doing and what we intend to do.

In the development of our democratic dispensation, it is important that we carry everybody along by making facts and figures available. Therefore, I find it strange that you begin to question this by going into polemics and academic trivia. I do not think that is fair. We are a transparent Government hence, the reason we are proud of our reform that we are able to come to this House and give you the details of what we intend to do so that at any appropriate time, you are able to stand up and question.

Mr Speaker, I was wondering as I sat here listening to the hon. Member talking about assistance over toilets to be a blessing from God. Surely, are those attitudes we are going to have as a people? Toilets are part of hygiene of us as a people. Do we have to wait for donors or people from outside to come and bless us with them? Honestly, that kind of leadership makes me very unhappy.

Sir, as councils, we have a duty to provide services to the people and the question of using our own resources to construct toilets for people cannot be a matter that we should be persuading outsiders to help us and talk about it as a blessing from God. Surely, that is very unfortunate. If that is the kind of leadership we are going to provide where we are going to tell people to wait for the blessings from outsiders to build us toilets, I do not know whether it would even be fair to contemplate to handle over Government to that kind leadership.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Sir, our role is to find solutions and raise finances to be able to provide services. I am very sad.

Mr Speaker, a few weeks ago, I heard about how some gentleman went visiting markets and talked about toilets. Surely, are toilets a subject that must preoccupy us? I am sad and disappointed that people who want to get into the Government cannot even distinguish what they are supposed to do and from what the people deserve.

Sir, I have heard another hon. Member say that equipment from China is this and that.

It is common knowledge, if you have been to China, that all the Western countries are in China.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Barlows, call them what you want to call them, they are all there. The Americans, British and Germans are all there.

Mr Mwenya: Doing what?

Mr Mulongoti: How is it possible that the same people who are making their products in China, which all us are buying from, including the Americans are doing so?

Hon. Opposition Members interjected.

Mr Mulongoti: Is it because you want to use selective myopia to try and help yourself believe that anything Chinese is bad?


Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mulongoti: I want to inform you that the Germans, Italians, British and Americans are in China building their brands. I can assure you that if you have never visited that place, you are very backward.


Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mulongoti: Go there and see what is happening.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Mulongoti: It is up to you. I leave that challenge to you.

Mrs Phiri: Question!

Mr Kambwili: Echo bakusulila abena Zambia, iwe!


Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I have been in this House since 1995 and one thing about it is that I believe we must have decorum of speech and respect for each other.

Dr Mwansa: Yes!

Mr Mulongoti: Unfortunately, we do not seem to have this culture building in certain individuals …

Mr V. Mwale: Kambwili!

Mr Mulongoti: … who, at every point, instead of using their intellectual capacity to assimilate and counter debate on the Floor, are used to debating from their seats in a cantankerous manner.


Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, I have been an hon. Member of Parliament for a long time.

Dr Katema: Which constituency?

Mr Mulongoti: I would like to make a plea that, please, we will not get anywhere if in our disagreement, we use dishonourable channels.

Mr Speaker, you have guided us several times, but sometimes I shudder to think that I find myself in this House with certain hon. Members. Maybe, I came at a wrong time and they should have come at another time.


Mr V. Mwale: Kambwili!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, as a ministry, we are conscious of the fact that we must provide good services to our people. We went out of our way, as a Government, to procure equipment to respond quickly to the needs of our people. We have received a lot of commendation and support from the general public for what we are doing. At the same time, we know that society is full of people with different characters. Others want to condemn whatever they see. However, there are hon. Members of Parliament who have come to me and said, “Hon. Minister, for many years the roads in my constituency were not rehabilitated, but for a change, they have been repaired.” I have said to them, “Thank you very much. Encourage us because at the end of the day, we are there to help each other and do what the people want.”

Sir, I have always said in this House that hon. Members should find time to come to our offices so that they can tell us where we are failing. However, the people, who condemn us the most in here, do not come to our offices. Hon. Members, unless you tell us that which we are not doing right, you do not expect us to guess as if we are magicians or we have got angelic powers. What is it that you fear that you cannot come to our offices so that we can discuss and move forward together? It is not enough for you to be seen to be the loudest in here, but what is good is for you to come with your genuine complaints so that we can sit and argue from a position of strength like you also would want to do.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: However, what are we seeing? Since last year, I have been appealing to you, hon. Members, to, please, come to let us talk, but I do not see people coming. I can count a few who have made an effort. However, it is not how much you shout at us here, it is how much you come to ask so that you can guide us that will make us make progress.

Mr Muteteka: Hear, hear! That is wisdom!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, when we decided to send the equipment to the provincial administration, we were trying to cut the red tape. This equipment could be centralised in Lusaka and I would be able to say, “Send this there, send that there!” Nevertheless, we refused and decided to decentralise its use and send it to the provincial administrations where the Permanent Secretary, who is the Government administrator and the politician, the hon. Minister, can act expeditiously to respond to the hon. Members’ requests.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: This was done in good faith. It is working very well in provinces because hon. Members who are decent enough go to the provincial administration and say, “Hon. Minister, my brother, Permanent Secretary, I have these requirements, how quickly can you respond to my request?”

Mr I. Banda: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: In some provinces, they have met as Members of Parliament, hon. Ministers and Permanent Secretaries to agree on a programme of work and it has worked very well.

Mr I. Banda: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: I wish to inform those from provinces where they are not interested in interacting with the provincial administration that whether they like it or not, the Government is structured in such a way that it makes it possible to administer a country.

Mr Ndalamei: Tell them!

Mr Mulongoti: Whether you do not like the provincial minister’s face or the permanent secretary, you still have to work with them because they are provided to make it easy for the Government to render services.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: I do not know why all you want to champion condemnation when you are not available to give guidance.

A week ago, when I spoke in this House, I mentioned that one of the qualities of a leader is to be able to lead others through guidance and help. However, we seem to have people who think condemnation is a way to help other people. There is more merit in helping each other than in always condemning each other.

Mr I. Banda: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, for this reason, I am extending the invitation, again, that if there is anything that you have seen we are not doing correctly, we are all ears because in your endeavour to want to take over, you are making more mistakes.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!


Mr Mulongoti: How are you going to do it?

Some time back, I debated and mentioned that we are very attentive to all the criticism and we are working on all the suggestions that you are making. Maybe, that is what is causing you frustration because all the suggestions you have made have been worked on. We are determined to ensure that firstly, …

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Mr Mulongoti: … agricultural programmes are implemented. If it means getting the manifesto, we will take it and implement it.


Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: That is the way any clever or educated person must behave. You must go for consultancy. If consultancy is provided for you, here, without being solicited for, surely, we will happily take it.


Mr Mulongoti: Hon. Members, this group you see, here, to which I belong, is happy to be with you and interact with you. We are happy that together, …

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Mulongoti: … we are developing this country.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mulongoti: However, some of you are so jealous …


Mr Mulongoti: … that even the projects we do are not seen or mentioned.

When I went to Mpatamato, I saw a wonderful road that we have constructed, going all the way up to the end, but I can tell you that the hon. Member would not even mention it.

Mr Daka: Kambwili!

Mr Mulongoti: Secondly, Luanshya Mine …

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Mr Mulongoti: … which was closed has reopened. I can tell you that the hon. Member for Roan one day said, “You people in Government are busy bringing investors because you are the beneficiaries.”


Mr Mulongoti: However, he is one of those who are doing business with the same Chinese they are condemning.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: If we were a government that was vindictive, we would have gone to that mine and said, “Do not give business to that gentleman who condemns you.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: We have not done that because we are civilised and decent enough to understand that when we play politics, we are responsible to each other.

Ms Cifire: Baku ulula!

Mr Mulongoti: What we want to say is this, please, do not condemn investors unnecessarily.

Ms Cifire: Sumina fye!

Mr Mulongoti: I would like to say this on the Floor of this House. Prior to last year's elections, …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order!

Mr Mulongoti: Let me say this, please.

… one leader condemned the Chinese so much that, I think, he was condemning them even in his sleep.


Mr Mulongoti: However, one day, he made an appointment to see one of the Ambassadors ….

Mrs Phiri: Aah! Question!

Hon. PF Members: Question!

Mr Mulongoti: … and I was called and asked about what I thought about the request as Chief Government Spokesperson. I said, “Well, you are a sovereign State, you are in our Republic, but we do not tie your hands. You can go through the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs, if they insist, please, give him a hearing, but as long as after that you help us with the details.”


Mr V. Mwale: King Cobra!

Mr Mulongoti: The gentleman went, …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order.

Hon. Government Members: Boma! Boma!

Mr Mulongoti: … they had this discussion and he was asked that, “Alright, if we help you fund the elections, what do you want us to do? If we do it, what are you going to give us in return?” The gentleman said, “If you help me to win these elections, I will give you one province as a free …

Mr Kambwili: On a point order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Order! I am listening very carefully and so I will not allow points of order.


Mr Mulongoti: He said, if you give me support, I am going to give you a province as a free zone.


Mr Mulongoti: Again, …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.


Mr Mulongoti: … he was told that the province had people living there and asked what he would do with them.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mulongoti: His answer was that when he became President, what he says is what will happen.


Mr Mulongoti: Now, this is the kind of attitude you have, and yet you want to pretend to mean well for the country, but, in fact, behind the scenes, you are able to give away a province.

Hon. Members: Shame!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, everyday, you wake up and condemn a country …


Mr Mulongoti: … but at night, you are busy negotiating for contracts from the companies owned by nationals of that country.

Hon. Members: Shame!

Mr Mulongoti: This kind of immorality must be checked because at the end of the day, you will end up selling all of us. However, as MMD, we will ensure that if we are going to hand over power to a political party, it shall be to one which will protect the interests of all of us in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, under my ministry, there is a catalogue of projects, roads and houses to be constructed and I can tell you that having travelled around the country, I am happy that we are moving in the right direction.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, by the end of 2010, with the inclusion of equipment from the Zambia National Service (ZNS) to work on the roads, those of you who think it is a joking matter will have nothing to talk about. We will have worked on the roads to a point where when you go there to campaign, the people will be asking what it is you are going to do. You will have difficulties explaining. You better off co-operating with us so that you are part of this development.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: If you do not co-operate, you will be part of the irrelevant group.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulongoti: Hon. Members, we should work together. We should not disadvantage you, but even if you choose not to want to work with us, I can assure you that we are going full throttle to ensure that we develop this country.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Malwa): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the 2010 Budget Address by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, Dr Musokotwane, whose theme is: “Enhancing Growth through competitiveness and diversification.”

Mr Speaker, the world is slowly coming out of the global recession and Zambia, too, has began to show some indication that it is on the right path to economic recovery through the expected growth in the mining, tourism, agriculture and construction sectors. In order to maintain this momentum, the 2010 Budget Cycle directs more resources to programmes that are aimed at stimulating growth and diversifying the economy.

Mr Speaker, the Government’s macroeconomic policies in 2010 will continue to focus on consolidating the recovery of the domestic economy to promote the rapid diversification of Zambia’s economic base and the protection of key social expenditures in sectors such as education and health.

Mr Speaker, in the Budget Address of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, he adequately informed the august House that Zambia’s ranking in the latest World Bank’s Doing Business Report is ahead of a number of major economies. This is a reflection of the MMD Government’s good governance and commitment to reducing the cost of doing business and promoting financial sector development. This means that Zambia has favourable monetary and financial sector policies in place meant to improve access to credit and reducing the high cost of borrowing.

Mr Speaker, the 2010 Budget Cycle is explicit in stating our Government’s resolve in providing quality infrastructure in Zambia. In the year 2010, a number of activities bordering on building and rehabilitating roads, bridges, electricity generation projects, schools and hospitals, to mention a few, have been documented in the Budget Address.

Mr Speaker, to exemplify or echo the words of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, on zero tolerance on corruption under the Government’s financial management, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has increased the funding allocation to the offices of the Auditor-General and the Anti-Corruption Commission. This will ensure that the two institutions have the necessary requirements to undertake their functions effectively and deter the misappropriation of public funds.

Mr Speaker, furthermore, in order to strengthen transparency and accountability, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning had informed the nation that in 2010, all ministries and Government agencies will publish their work plans for the general public and the Opposition hon. Members of Parliament to follow the process of the projects on the ground because the MMD Government will continue to lead and the Pact will continue to follow the MMD development projects such as releasing CDF. Our colleagues in the Opposition have to know that before they ask for additional CDF release, they need to present the documentation on how they used the previous CDF. Even if some people have leopard names, they will not get the money if they will not retire the previous CDF receipts.

Mr Speaker, the 2010 Budget is in line with the Government’s development agenda in respect to education, economic affairs and health functions. These have a significant share of this Budget at 47.3 percent collectively. The MMD Government’s view on the importance of the agriculture sector cannot be over emphasised, but keeping in line with improving productivity and raising incomes of the millions of Zambian farmers, the Government has increased the total allocation to agriculture and livestock sectors to K1,139 billion in 2010 from K1,096.3 billion allocated in 2009.

These are the works of the MMD Government which are seen and appreciated by the people of Zambia because we know very well that agriculture is now the mainstay of Zambia, and hence the good policies in agriculture to maximise food security and reduce poverty. The tourism sector continues to grow in accordance with our interventions in the sector which is the construction of vital infrastructure in tourism areas.

To this end, in 2010, the Government has allocated K95.6 billion towards the development of the Northern Tourism Circuit. Of this amount, K20.6 billion will be used for the continued construction of the road from Mbala to the Kasaba Bay. K70 billion will come from the rural electrification fund for the electrification of the area and K5 billion is for the construction of the Kasaba Bay Airport.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the above-mentioned allocations, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has also provided K83.4 billion for the support of the economic expansion and diversification of projects aimed at fostering growth in the tourism sector. These efforts will ensure that Zambia is a tourist destination during the 2010 World Cup Games to be hosted by South Africa.

Mr Speaker, the Government has electrification of rural areas on its priority list. In order to quicken this process, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has allocated K234.7 billion focussed on stepping up rural electrification programmes.

Mr Speaker, under transport and communications, to improve access to rural areas, the Government has allocated K1.461.9 billion towards the construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of the road networks in 2010. This will greatly ensure that remote areas are not cut off from the rest of the country. The Road Development Agency (RDA) under the Ministry of Works and Supply will ensure good work of feeder roads and district roads even in areas where the Opposition is, who have no much resources to offer, but the Government will ensure that it steps in and put up road infrastructure. The MMD Government has the resources and it is a listening Government and we will help to develop where need arises. So there is no need for the Opposition to keep complaining and crying because this is a listening Government and it will adhere to their request.

Mr Speaker, to raise the standards of education and provide better opportunities for achievement, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has allocated K3,320.9 billion to the education sector, representing an increase of 26.4 per cent from the resources allocated in 2009. These resources will go towards development of infrastructure and procurement of education materials, including books. This is a clearly indication of this Government’s seriousness in education and empowering our future generations …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malwa: … because we know that education is key to success.

I am very grateful to the MMD Government as Member of Parliament for Kapiri Mposhi Constituency which hosts the Mulungushi University and is the only rural constituency in the country with a university. I therefore, invite all Grade 12 school leavers with very good marks to apply for degree courses at this university. Apart from the Mulungushi University, Kapiri Mposhi has boarding schools and high schools that are under construction. All this is in order to increase better the standards in the education.

Mr Speaker, the Government endeavours to increase access to clean water and sanitation for our people. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning allocated K433.7 billion to water supply and sanitation facilities in 2010. This is more than double the resources that were allocated in 2009. Of this amount, K116.5 billion has been allocated towards the construction of 1,000 boreholes and rehabilitation of 700 boreholes.

Mr Speaker, I am grateful that this year’s budget for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has been increased from K62.7 billion to K76.5 billion and this money is for the disabled and vulnerable people. Some of the disabled and vulnerable people are neglected by our colleagues in the UPND/PF Pact that has no resources to help the vulnerable people. So it is my humble plea that when we come to approving the budget, all the hon. Members of this august House support the budget of K76.5 billion for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services for 2010.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Any further debate. Yesterday, there was very powerful guidance to the hon. Members that because of your failure to debate yesterday, you are required to come prepared to debate seriously today. As you can see, this is 1713 hours. If you take away 1430 hours, we have been debating for under three hours and it appears this is it. You have run out of steam, ...


Mr Speaker: … and yet the people of Zambia sent you here with full steam. You have run out of that steam. I have two plans to solve this problem. I call them plan A and B. I shall reserve Plan B for application at the appropriate time. For the time being, I shall deal with an example of Plan A. Accordingly, I suspend business until further notice, but the hon. Members shall remain in their seats.

Now, for the media, this is the language they use. What we are going to do after I have suspended business is off the record. They are free to remain up there, but shall not report what we are going to do. If there are any of them who are tempted to report, they should exit.

Now, when I say I suspended business it means we shall be off air as well. For the record, the radio is free to play music. The communication by these gadgets will simply be among us. The radio presenters will play some music or tell any stories they wish. I repeat or emphasis that if the media wish to stay, they are free to listen in, but shall not report anything. If they do, the charge will be contempt of this House and that can be painful. What we are going to do is just an example of plan A, which will take a few minutes, but if this trend continues, then plan A will be expanded to a larger plan B.

Now, I have requested the fundies down there to reflect a few words on the screens. This is in relation to what I said in the last meeting of the House. Remember I gave an example that I have heard the word ‘individuals’ sometimes pronounced ‘indi-viduals.’ Some hon. Members pronounce words so differently that people are unable to follow what it is they are talking about. For instance, this afternoon already, I am not sure if the word which was said is ‘honourable’ or ‘horrible.’

So, I now pause for the radio to play music or whatever they want to do.

Business was suspended from 1718 hours until 1801 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Speaker: Any further debate?

Hon. Members remained seated.

Mr Speaker: I see none.


The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.


The House adjourned at 1802 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 15th October, 2009.