DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 21st October, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

LEADER OF GOVERNMENT BUSINESS IN THE HOUSE

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Dr Kalombo Mwansa, MP, Minister of Defence, will act as Leader of Government Business in the House from Wednesday, 21st to Friday, 23rd October, 2009.

I thank you.

DELEGATION FROM THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF MALAWI

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to acquaint the House with the presence in the Speaker’s Gallery of a delegation from the National Assembly of Malawi. The names of the hon. Members of Parliament are:

(i) Hon. Beatrice Mwangonde, MP, (Leader of the Delegation);
(ii) Hon. Ralph Pachalo Jooma, MP;
(iii) Hon. Khwauli Msiska, MP;
(iv) Hon. Mc Steyn Mkomba, MP;
(v) Hon. Herbert Bimphi, MP; and 
(vi) Hon. Mwalone Jangiya, MP.

Accompanying the hon. Members are the following officials:

(i) Mr Bester Mandele, District Commissioner, Thyolo District; and 
(ii) Mr Hastings F. E. Bota, Deputy Director, Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development.

We are happy to have them in our midst.

Thank you.

Hon Members: Hear, hear!

ZAMBIA COMPETITION COMMISSION WORKSHOP

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that I have authorised the Zambia Competition Commission to conduct a half-day workshop for hon. Members of Parliament on Monday, 26th October, 2009, in the Auditorium, here at Parliament Buildings, starting at 0830 hours.

The workshop will be held under the theme: “Role of the Competition Law in National Development.” The objective of the workshop is to sensitise hon. Members of Parliament on how the competition law interventions can add value to national development.

I, therefore, urge all hon. Members to attend this important workshop.

I thank you.

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

VALUE OF BUILDINGS OWNED BY ZAMBIA STATE INSURANCE CORPORATION

142. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minster of Finance and National Planning:

(a) what the real estate value of all the buildings owned by the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC) was;

(b) what the annual rental collections from the buildings being rented out at (a) were; and

(c) how much of the amount at (b) was paid to the Government as withholding tax from 2006 to June, 2009, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the real estate value of all the buildings owned by the Zambia State Insurance Corporation (ZSIC) is K100,273 million. This is broken down as follows:

(i) ZSIC General Insurance   K24,790 million
(ii) ZSIC Life    K75,483 million

Mr Speaker, I further wish to inform the House that the corporation manages pension funds with properties worth K106,328 million.

Mr Speaker, the current annual rental collections receivable from the buildings is K8,735 million, broken down as follows:

(i) ZSIC General Insurance   K1,215 million
(ii) ZSIC Life    K7,520 million

The House may wish to note that the pension funds rental collection is K12,296 million.

Mr Speaker, K1,566 million was paid to the Government as withholding tax from 2006 to June 2009, broken down as follows:

2006     K532 million
2007     K289 million
2008     K500 million
June 2009    K245 million

Total     K1,566 billion.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, from the answer given by the hon. Minister, it is clear that ZSIC has invested very well in real estate. May I know why ZSIC takes so long to settle claims from its customers when its financial base is sound?

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, the amounts that I have mentioned are purely from rentals. This is a large asset base which, of course, requires a lot of expenses in maintaining these buildings. There are other obligations that ZSIC has. So, it would not be prudent to assume that because it is collecting rentals, it is, therefore, able to settle claims because we cannot directly link those two issues.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that ZSIC has a bloated management structure which is eating up the profits of the organisation because of having several managing directors running one company?

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, I think the structure of ZSIC, now, is actually a legal requirement so as to ensure there is separation between the different aspects of insurance carried out by ZSIC. Hence, the formation of ZSIC Life and ZISC General Insurance. So, this is not just a mere creation of new subsidiaries of the companies and, therefore, there is nothing wrong with its structure.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, Hon. Kambwili was concerned with the performance vis-à-vis payment of claims to clients by ZSIC. I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether it is the Government’s deliberate policy to use other private insurance companies at the expense of ZSIC in insuring Government property and hence the reason this company fails to meet claims by clients promptly.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member knows, this country has a liberalised market and there are different players in the insurance industry. I do not want to go into the issue of delayed payments on claims because there are various reasons why claims, sometimes, cannot be settled on time. That would be a specific question which, if posed, and we are given time to research, we would be able to come back with a better answer.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, ZSIC is a Government-owned company. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if there cannot be a policy whereby Government institutions are instructed to insure with ZSIC because the profit would be ploughed back to the Government.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, Zambia has a liberalised market and I think that there are considerations of choice, efficiency and how quickly claims are paid, which we take into account when we are looking for insurance. The ultimate objective would be to have a market in which everybody is free to choose which insurance company to insure with. Competition will ensure that every company tries to improve on efficiency so that it becomes the company of choice in terms of insurance.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Ms Mwape (Mufulira): Mr Speaker, I totally agree with the hon. Minister that choice is there in a liberalised economy. However, this is a Government-owned institution. How can the Government have a choice of preference in terms of who is offering better services? Is it not the Government’s responsibility to take care of its ‘baby’ so that ZSIC can have efficient management and be able to deliver the service that the Government is looking for?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, at the expense of repeating myself, I think it is, of course, the Government’s objective to see that the companies in which we invest are run efficiently and not just being propped up. I think we have come from a situation where we felt that parastatal companies would have to be efficient for them to survive. Therefore, I think our objective is to ensure that the correct management is in place, with qualified people to run a corporation which can compete with any other in the market. We would like to support that kind of position so that our companies are efficient and can, therefore, stand competition and not trying to prop them up, thereby making them even more inefficient in the long run.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

QUALIFIED STAFF FOR CLINICS IN WESTERN PROVINCE

143. Mr Mooya (Moomba) (on behalf of Ms Limata (Luampa)) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when qualified would be sent to the following clinics in Western Province:
 
(i) Mbanyutu;
(ii) Mulwa
(iii) Lui; and
(iv) Nakayembe; and

(b) when Mbanyutu clinic would be rehabilitated.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health is currently undergoing a restructuring process through which the Government has posted qualified staff to the following rural health centres in Western Provinces:

(i) Mbanyutu Health Centre has two qualified officers, namely: one clinical officer and a Zambia enrolled midwife. The position of environmental health technologist is still vacant.

(ii) Mulwa Health Post is new and arrangements are being made to send qualified health staff to the centre.

(iii) Lui Health Centre has two qualified staff, namely: a Zambia enrolled nurse and an environmental health technologist. The Government is in the process of posting a clinical officer to this health centre.

(iv) Nakayembe Clinic currently has one environmental health technologist. The Government is in the process of posting a clinical officer and a Zambia enrolled nurse there.

Sir, Mbanyutu Health Centre and two staff houses were rehabilitated in 2007.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

MONEY OFF LOADED ON THE FOREIGN EXCHANGE MARKET IN 2008/2009

144. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much money, in US dollars, was off loaded on the foreign exchange market to cushion the impact of the depreciation of the Kwacha during the period 2008 to 2009; and

(b) what measures the Government had taken to avert further depreciation of the Kwacha.

Ms C. M. Kapwepwe: Mr Speaker, a total of US $230,500,000 was sold on the foreign exchange market between January and December, 2008. During the period January to September, 2009, a total of US $272,500,000 was sold on the foreign exchange market. This brings the total amount sold for the period 2008 to September, 2009, to US $503,000,000.

Mr Speaker, the development in the foreign exchange market reflects both short-term and long-term fundamental factors. The short-term factors included:

(i) political uncertainty associated with the death of His Excellency, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC and the subsequent Presidential elections;

(ii) increased and bunched demand for foreign exchange; and

(iii) some element of panic and speculation.

The long-term factors include:

(i) changes in investor sentiment as a result of the global financial crisis;

(ii) worsening of the terms of trade leading to lower foreign exchange earnings and poor prospects for the export sector;

(iii) increased dollarisation; and

(iv) strengthening of the United States Dollar.

Mr Speaker, in order to counter these factors which were causing the depreciation of the Kwacha, the following measures were taken:

(i) the Government, through the Bank of Zambia, increased sales of foreign exchange to the market;

(ii) the Bank of Zambia increased information flows, such as the levels of foreign exchange available to the foreign exchange market;

(iii) the Government implemented measures to curb speculative activities by non-resident players in the money and foreign exchange market; and

(iv) the Government introduced measures to diversify the economy and Zambia’s export base through interventions in agriculture, tourism, manufacturing as well as enhancing the competitiveness of the economy through investment in physical infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the offloaded money was just borrowed from somewhere else or it was from the reserves. If it was borrowed, where was it borrowed from?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, the money that was utilised to intervene on the foreign exchange market at the time when the Kwacha was unstable was from the reserves of the Republic of Zambia. It was not borrowed money.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, apart from making available the foreign exchange on the market, I would like to find out the effects that offloading has on our economy, both positive and negative.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the effect was to create stability on the foreign exchange market. You will recall that at the time in question, our currency, like many other currencies in the world, was depreciating fast. By intervening, although not resisting, we slowed down the rate at which the local currency was depreciating, which, obviously, was positive in the sense that the depreciation could have been much worse and the inflation could have been threatened.  Of course, panic in the country could have also been created. Basically, the effect was to create stability in the economy.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, there was no mention, in the answer, of interest rate management despite the fact that we know that interest rates are exceptionally high and that they form part of the mechanism for strengthening the Kwacha against the dollar. Would the hon. Minister confirm that interest rate management is an important element of stabilising, in the medical sense, the patient, and also confirm that it is an anti-diversification measure to have high interest rates?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that interest rate management has got an effect on the exchange rate. This is something that undergraduate students in economics already know.

Interruptions

Dr Musokotwane: Sir, there was no question of using interest rates to stabilise the exchange rates. The major intervening factor was foreign exchange sales. Obviously, there was some rise in interest rates, but this was caused by the fact that people who had invested in treasury bills and bonds in this country withdrew their money. Therefore, the availability of money going to these markets became less and that is how the interest rate rose. It is not that anyone pushed up interest rates from a policy perspective to stabilise the exchange rate as the hon. Member suggested. On that score, the hon. Member is definitely wrong.

Mr Speaker, the depreciation in currency has, obviously, assisted in diversification because non-traditional exports are becoming more competitive and the hon. Member is fully aware of that. If he wants, he can visit the Bank of Zambia website and he will see that, in actual fact, the exchange rates depreciated in real terms and this is good for non- traditional exports as he is admitting himself.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, Zambia is one of the few and, maybe, the only country that I am aware of that allows companies 100 per cent externalisation of its revenues which puts pressure on the Kwacha and hence the depreciation. I would like to know from the hon. Minister whether we are thinking of any measures, as a Government and a country, to put some restriction on this wholesome externalisation of revenue and profits by these foreign companies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, in my Budget Address, I referred to the fact that when the copper crisis started in the 1970s, one of the major impacts of that were foreign exchange shortages that ran until the 1990s.

Mr Speaker, you will also recollect that the time in question was the time there were draconian regulations in the foreign exchange market. It was extremely difficult to access foreign exchange because of the restrictions. The irony of the situation is that whereas there were very heavy restrictions, foreign exchange was, actually, not conserved. Instead, it became less available. The moment of change came when access was improved and, all of a sudden, foreign exchange was everywhere. This is the situation prevailing today.

Therefore, why do we want, out of the sentimental considerations of those years, those of us who lived during that time and are not willing to move forward with time, to go back to a system where restrictions were failing?

In my view, this system has worked very well because access is open and no one fails to get foreign exchange unless they have no money to buy it.

Now, the hon. Member said he knows Zambia to be the only country which has open access. That is wrong because Botswana, Mauritius and most of the countries in Asia as well as Europe are open like us. The point is that the more the restrictions, the more you, actually, chase the money away because people are not certain about what will happen. When it is opened up, people gladly bring their money into the country knowing fully well that when they want to take their money out, they will be able to do so. The system we have is extremely good.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to seek clarification from the hon. Minister on Page 5, paragraph 35 of the 2010 Budget Address where he says that by the end of September, we had the highest reserves at five months import cover and this has never happened in thirty-eight years. Knowing what is happening to the kwacha, is there a target of the reserves that the hon. Minister aims to get at and, therefore, a target of the value of the kwacha to which he would like it to settle?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the answer is that, I think, from about 2004, 2005 and onwards, if we go back to the budget speeches which my former boss read, the general target, then, was about three months of import cover. If we have something like three months of import cover, that is quite reasonable and we are happy with that. Therefore, at five months of import cover, we are even happier. Indeed, the target is safely about three months of import cover, but we do not set a specific target beyond this as it clearly depends on how the economy is performing.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Imenda (Lukulu East): Mr Speaker, the substantial remedies alluded to have a long-term yielding capacity. What deliberate measures are put in place to strengthen the kwacha in the long-term?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the level at which the currency stands now is something that we should generally be happy about. One of the key considerations, which is that of ensuring that the non-traditional exports are competitive, and where the rates stand, today, I think, we are fairly happy with that.

Mr Speaker, we talk about the so-called real effective exchange rate which measures the competitiveness of a currency and the statistics that we have show that where the currency, today, is quite reasonable. If my elder brother wants to export, for example, glass or timber to Botswana and South Africa at the current exchange rate, he can do so because it will be profitable. If the exchange rate was to become something like K3,000 to a US $1, he will not be able to export the glass or timber because it will not be profitable.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, what is the current value of our foreign reserves?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I just mentioned that in the Budget Speech last week, but I can remind the hon. Member that it is about US $1.7 billion.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, in the explanation given by the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning, she gave an example of the death of our immediate past President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., as a contributing factor to the depreciation of the kwacha. Could the Government explain to the House how the exchange rate was affected when there was an assurance that everything possible would be done to ensure continuity by our current President?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, I explained that for a number of years, people have been investing in our stock exchange, treasury bills and bonds. Clearly, when the death of the former President occurred, there was some nervousness in some people because they did not know what would happen to the country. That is how they decided to withdraw their money. However, the combination of the adequate reserves that the country had accumulated over the years due to competent management…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question.

Dr Musokotwane: … of the economy, the assurance that we gave the investors that they could withdraw their money and, finally, the good  political management that ensured a smooth transition from one President to the next are all factors that contributed very significantly to restoring stability in the exchange rates.

Thank you, Sir.

Ms Mwape: Mr Speaker, what exchange rate does the hon. Minister intend to achieve if at all he has any? If there is nothing, can he inform to the House so that we know that the Government is not working at any target?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, we have never had an exchange rate target. It is market-driven based on the interactions between the buyers and sellers of foreign exchange.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Speaker, we learnt, last year, that the plus or minus US $400 million that was raised from windfall tax was placed in a special account. May I know from the hon. Minister whether this US $1.7 billion, in reserve, he is sitting on today, includes that US $400 million from the windfall tax collection?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the US $400 million the hon. Member is referring to was the target in terms of tax collections for 2008. What was collected is less than that. That amount he referred to does not include the US $400 because it was not collected.

Thank you, Sir.

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BILL

SECOND READING

THE SUPREME COURT AND HIGH COURT (Number of Judges) (Amendment) BILL, 2009

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the Bill be now read a second time.

Mr Speaker, the Supreme Court and High Court Number of Judges Act, Chapter 26 of the Laws of Zambia, prescribes the number of Judges of the Supreme Court and the High Court of Zambia.

Sir, currently, Section 2 of the Act provides that there shall be nine Supreme Court Judges, including the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice. Section 3 provides that there shall be thirty High Court Judges.

The pressure placed on the system by the increase in the number of cases litigated and the rapidly increasing population has necessitated an upward adjustment to the number of Judges, both at the Supreme Court and High Court levels.

Mr Speaker, this Bill seeks to amend Sections 2 and 3 of the Act so as to provide for an increase in the number of Supreme Court and High Court Judges.

Sir, although the Bill before this august House proposes to vest power in the President to increase the number of Supreme Court and High Court Judges by Statutory Instrument, the Government has revised that decision following further consultations with the Judiciary. I will, therefore, move amendments to the Bill on the Floor of the House so that we amend Sections 2 and 3 of the Act to increase the number of the Supreme Court Judges to eleven and that of the High Court Judges to fifty, within the Act itself.
Mr Speaker, this measure will ensure greater and faster access to justice by our people since the number of Judges will be increased in order to meet the dynamic needs of our nation.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Mwansa: Sir, this Bill is not controversial.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: It is progressive and I, therefore, urge all hon. Members of this august House to support it.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to brief this august House on matters pertaining to the Supreme Court and High Court (Number of Judges) (Amendment) Bill, National Assembly Bill No.28 of 2009, which was referred to your Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters on the 30th of September, 2009, for scrutiny.

The Supreme Court and High Court Act, as amended by Act No. 10 of 1997, restricts the number of Supreme Court Judges to nine and High Court Puisne Judges to thirty. The rate of litigation has since grown, outstripping the number of Judges, thereby occasioning an undesirable backlog of cases. The backlog of cases has led to delayed judgments which adversely affect justice delivery.

Mr Speaker, the intention of the amendment Bill is to increase the current numbers of Judges of the Supreme Court and High Court as a measure to ensure a speedy dispensation of justice.

Sir, your Committee, in their endeavour to consult widely on this important Bill, invited various stakeholders to make both written and oral submissions before them. Your Committee received useful responses from the stakeholders.

The witnesses all registered support for the Bill, albeit with reservations. The concerns are recorded in your Committee’s report for the consideration of the hon. Members of this House as they consider the Bill and I trust that the hon. Members will find the report useful as they debate the Bill.

Sir, the witnesses who appeared before your Committee observed that the amendments, as provided in the Bill, confer very wide discretionary powers on the President and may entail a negative development in respect of the principle of separation of powers and also negatively affect the operations of the Judiciary as an independent body.

To this effect, Sir, your Committee are of the view that the current provisions where the Act gives a definite number of Judges of the Supreme Court and High Court should be maintained …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … and that the numbers be adjusted upwards as proposed by the stakeholders.

Sir, I note with happiness that, in fact, the Executive has alluded to the fact that it will make amendments. This is a welcome move.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Sir, your Committee would like to urge the House to consider the contents of their report as they proceed with the Bill, of course, taking into consideration what the Leader of Government Business in the House has said.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, your Committee wish to record and express their appreciation to the witnesses who made submissions before them.

Finally, I wish to commend members of your Committee and the Clerk’s Office for their dedication to duty during the consideration of the Supreme Court and High Court (Number of Judges) (Amendment) Bill.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central):  Mr Speaker, as I understand it, and I stand to be corrected if I understand wrongly, we are being asked to pass a Bill which, as it stands in writing, is not a Bill to which even the Government subscribes. What the Government then proposes to do is to bring, at a later stage, an amendment which we have not seen in writing, but have seen reference to in the report and have heard it verbally. If that is my understanding, I fail to understand why the Government has not just brought an amended Bill, a new Bill, which incorporates what we are apparently all agreed on. 

I say this bearing in mind that part of the difficulty on this side of the House in getting a unified stand on the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) Bill was that we were given all sorts of undertakings about amendments that would be appearing at the Third Reading Stage, which never arose. In short, we were manipulated.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, all I can say, very briefly, is that on this side of the House, our intention is to reject this Bill and have a new Bill brought.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, I would like to agree with the recommendations of your Committee which stipulate that there is need to amend the principle Act, which talks about the numbers.

Mr Speaker, the idea of the Government’s move to amend parts of the Constitution when the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) is sitting, is a bit worrisome. The Leader of the Government Business in the House is not even forthright that he is now agreeing with the recommendations and, therefore, needs to bring a Bill that will talk about the actual Act on numbers.

This Bill asks us to give powers to the President to state the numbers required by Statutory Instrument. The recommendations of the Committee say this is wrong. It is going against the Constitution.

Now, we are being told that he is going to bring an amendment, but what is to be amended? If this Bill is asking us to give the powers to increase the number of Judges to the President, which is wrong, why can we not agree and do something straightforward? Why do you want to pull a fast one on us so that afterwards you can say that we had already agreed?

Your Committee have made a recommendation and if the Leader of Government Business in the House agrees with it, it would be gracious of him to state that he has accepted the recommendation and withdraw the Bill so that he brings something that is straightforward. Let us not have piece-meal Constitution amendments. Without divulging much of what is being discussed at the National Constitutional Conference, we can now see certain parts of the Constitution being brought by this Executive in order to make us agree on matters that have not yet been agreed upon. I think that is setting a dangerous precedent.

Sir, now that the Leader of Government Business in the House agrees with the recommendations of your Committee, can he honourably withdraw this amendment and quickly bring the correct amendment?

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Beene: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I would like to add my voice to the hon. Members of Parliament who have spoken before me and stated that this Bill should be withdrawn.

In the first instance, the issue of giving powers to the President to determine the number of Judges in the Judicature left a lot of room for speculation. This could have led to things that we could not control, as a nation. I am happy that your Committee have opposed this idea.
I would also like to support the notion that this Bill be withdrawn, but only one point needs to be clarified. The hon. Minister has stated that the number of Supreme Court Judges should be increased from nine to eleven while that of High Court Judges should be increased from thirty to fifty. Roughly, this means that the number of Supreme Court Judges has been increased by 20 per cent and that of High Court Judges by 60 per cent. There is a very big disparity between the two figures and I get the impression that not enough work has been carried out on this Bill.

I liken it to the Local Government Reforms Amendment Bill that was rejected by this House because not enough work was done on it. Why is there such a difference of 20 per cent and 60 per cent between the two courts? Did they look at the changes that would come with the increased number of Judges? I believe this will translate into increased emoluments, offices and courts. Has all that been taken into account?

Mr Speaker, with this submission, I wish to concur with the previous speakers that this Bill be withdrawn. More work on the Bill needs to be done correctly and then brought back to the House so that we can analyse and debate it more intelligently and with a more solid background.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would also like to add my voice to the many voices that are calling for the withdrawal of this Bill. The major reason I am asking that this Bill be withdrawn is that the report states that its objective is to:

(i) empower the President to determine the number of Judges in the Judicature; and

(ii)  provide for matters connected with or incidental to the foregoing.

Sir, if the first objective has failed, why are we trying to bring a Bill whose first objective has already been rejected? Secondly, in talking about the numbers of Judges being increased, what statistics are we using? Why should Parliament surrender its power to the President so that he, in turn, uses it unnecessarily?

This is why we, as Parliamentarians, need to be involved when discussing issues that concern the Constitution because it allows us to have a say on the numbers. Therefore, the criterion used for increasing the number of Judges is not clear because we have not looked at the statistics on cases. What statistics do we have on litigation cases because we want to have a say on all these issues? We do not even know the establishment of the Judges and whether there are vacancies or not. The people who appeared before the Committee rejected this amendment. Why should we push for something that has already been rejected? I also reject it in totality because the people do not want to see something that will compromise the separation of powers.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I would like to say that I reject this Bill and I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the recommendations made by your Committee …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … that there is absolutely no need to give the powers to establish the number of Judges for the High Court and Supreme Court to the President.  There is, absolutely, no reason for that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: The right thing for the Government to consider is to propose an amendment that will fix the number in the existing Act. Giving powers to the President is totally unnecessary because we will not be changing the number of Judges every year. Therefore, I am submitting that the right thing to do here is for the Government to withdraw this Bill and come up with an appropriate amendment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: I rest my submission.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this Bill. I would like to briefly comment on the Bill before the House.

Sir, I agree with the previous speakers that it is not necessary for the Government to bring this Bill to the House. It has to be withdrawn. If anything, this is undermining the work of the NCC which is still going on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: Why should we be in a hurry? Let the NCC work and conclude issues in those committees because all Bills which are dealing with the principle law will still be brought to Parliament.

Therefore, if we are merely trying to sneak in issues from the principle law, through Parliament, particularly those that are to add more powers to the Presidency, at the time the NCC is sitting, so that we can come up with the right amendment, then I do not know what we are doing.  It would be particularly unfair to the members of the NCC who are deliberating these issues if we undermined their efforts.

With those few words, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Bill.

Sir, I rise to support the position of your Committee and, in supporting it, I would like to draw the attention of the ‘Ausi’ to the objective of the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Ausi!

Mr Kambwili: The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is trying to play a quick one on the hon. Members of Parliament. You see a wise man accepts defeat, but he is trying to hide in the amendment to run away from the fact that the Government has been defeated on this issue. It shows that there was no consultation when they were bringing the Bill.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: This is confirmed by the submission that was made by the Attorney-General who is the principal advisor to the Government on legal matters. Why should the Attorney-General, who advised the Government and consulted the stakeholders, come and change his position when it comes to Parliament? His submission is as follows and I quote from Page 6:

“The Attorney-General submitted that upon further consultation, it had been decided that an amendment to the Bill be effected so as to repeal and substitute Section 2 and 3 of the principal Act to provide for 11 Judges of the Supreme Court, including the Chief Justice and Deputy Chief Justice and 50 Judges of the High Court, respectively”.

Mr Speaker, which people did he consult because the stakeholders are the Law Association of Zambia and Judicial Service Commission? It shows that there is not much consultation before Bills are brought to this House. This should be a lesson that must be learnt the hard way by withdrawing this Bill totally and not bringing unacceptable amendments.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to comment on the Bill before the House.

Sir, what I am hearing is a mere storm in a tea cup.

Interruptions

Mr Chilembo: Mr Speaker, in his speech, …

Mr Sichilima: Ema lawyers aya!

Hon. Opposition Members: Lawyer wakuti, kansi?

Mr Chilembo: ...the Leader of Government Business in the House has made it very clear when he said, and I quote:

 “Although the Bill before this august House proposed to vest power in the President to increase the number of Supreme Court and High Court Judges by Statutory Instrument, the Government has revised that decision following further consultations with the Judiciary. It will, therefore, move amendments to the Bill on the Floor of this House so that sections two and three of the Act increase the number of Judges of the Supreme Court to eleven and that of High Court Judges to fifty within the Act itself.”

 From this submission, it is very clear that Parliament is agreeing with the Committee that, actually, the increase should be in the Principal Act itself as opposed to the Statutory Instrument where the President was going to determine the number of Judges.

Mr Sichilima: Bwekeshapo, tabomfwile!

Mr Chilembo: This is why even Hon. Masebo, in her submission, was grateful that the Government had reviewed this decision and was to move the amendment. I want to confirm that the amendment, in fact, is being processed and it will be circulated sometime this afternoon. It is only regretted that there has been a delay in the circulation of the amendment.

Interruptions

Mr Chilembo: The amendment is coming. There is nothing to fear or hide because this Government is committed. There is no way this Government can undertake to move such amendments and try to pull a fast one as has been suggested in front of the Hon Mr Speaker. This is a serious Government.

Interruptions

Mr Chilembo: We must learn to appreciate when the Government takes such a position. The problem we face is that we want the Government to come out and say, “Ok, now you have defeated us.”

Interruptions

Mr Chilembo: That is what you want to hear. When we say that this is a listening Government, this is what we mean. The arguments, which stakeholders, including the Judiciary brought forward, have been taken on board and we are moving accordingly. Therefore, this is a matter where hon. Members should not try to create an unnecessary storm in a tea cup. This Bill, with the proposed amendments, should be supported by all progressive hon. Members of Parliament.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the opportunity to wind up debate on this Bill. I want to begin by commending your Committee for a very good piece of work. All relevant evidence was heard, carefully assessed and recommendations made. Let me, first of all, clear some misconceptions that have been presented this afternoon.

Mr Speaker, as a Government, we have no intention of undermining the principle of separation of powers. We want to ensure checks and balances in the dispensation of justice so that we can prevent possible abuse in providing justice to our people. We want to ensure that there is transparency and accountability in the functions of the Judiciary. I also want to mention that the Bill before this House has been as a result of wide consultations with the Judiciary and there is no dispute on the fact that we need to increase the number of High Court and Supreme Court Judges. What is in dispute is the process of doing that. When this amendment was proposed, the first indication was that the President would have the powers to amend the number of Judges through a Statutory Instrument. After further consultations, we have conceded and agreed with the views of all stakeholders that this would be unconstitutional and against the practice that we have followed over the years. Instead, we want to amend the number of Judges in the High Court from thirty to fifty and for the Supreme Court from nine to eleven, but within the Principal Act and not through a Statutory Instrument.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Mwansa: As a result, we will move amendments to that effect and remove the discretion from the President which was our earlier intention and allow Parliament to do it. Therefore, you must be proud because we are giving you the powers to do that.

Interruptions

Dr Mwansa: At an appropriate time, an amendment will be moved to give effect to what we are saying.

Mr Speaker, this is non-controversial because we have agreed on the need to have the numbers increased and have conceded on the mode of doing that. Therefore, there is no dispute. We are all speaking the same language and I urge hon. Members from that side (left) to support the Second Reading of this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mr Speaker: Order!

It is my duty to guide the House. The next step on all that is going on is that I should put the question, but in view of what the hon. Acting Leader of Government Business said, it is not clear to me as to which Bill I should put the question on.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Is it the Bill that is being talked about in the Committee Report as well as the one you are referring to, that there will be further amendments?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

If I put the question, I will do that on the Bill as it is now. That is the exact position, and yet the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is saying that it is not the case.

May the hon. Minister clarify this, please?

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, we have indicated that we have conceded to the recommendations of the report and what we are proposing is within its recommendations. At an appropriate time, we will bring amendments to give effect to what the Committee have proposed. Further amendments will be made to the report and Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The quandary has not been cleared. I wonder if there is no need for quiet consultations on this matter. While I defer putting the question at this stage, we will be going to the business on the Order Paper. Whoever is going to consult, will do that and can come back to report to the House.

Mr Kambwili: Withdraw!

Mr Speaker: No, order! I used the word, “defer” and not “withdraw”.

Dr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, with the indulgence of the House, I beg to move that the Bill be deferred to Wednesday, next week.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

How many of you make decisions that way? That is a very difficult decision to make.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

The debate on the Bill, by leave, accordingly deferred.

__________

¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬MOTION

BUDGET 2010

(Debate resumed)

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor. From the outset, I would like to state that it is a fallacy for anybody to call this a pro-poor budget.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in coming up with this supposedly pre-poor budget, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Pro-poor.

  Mr Kambwili: … Pro-poor budget, I beg your pardon … there are certain benchmarks that we need to look at. If we are to identify this budget as one for the poor, we need certain factors to indicate what this budget intends to achieve for the poor people in the countryside, compounds and urban areas of Zambia. For example, what measures has this budget put in place to cushion the impact on pupils who complete Grade 12 and are not able to go to university on account of being unable to afford the fees?

Mr Speaker, what has this budget provided for the many children in peri-urban areas that have schools with three classrooms and are in class for less than two hours because they have to leave room for the other grades to attend class? In peri-urban areas, most schools that are built now comprise only  a single 1x3 classroom block, meaning that the stream of pupils from Grade 1 to Grade 7, are in class for less than two hours to accommodate the pupils in other grades.

Is there any provision in this budget to cover the needs of children who are ill taught because they are not in school for the required hours? What has this budget got to provide for a child who runs around in the compound without a shirt on, not because he does not want one but because his parents cannot afford to buy him one? If these benchmarks are met in this budget then we can clearly say that this budget is a pro-poor one.

Mr Speaker, most of the people who are saying that this budget is pro-poor are the elite. They are people who are well-to-do. What are the poor people saying about this budget? The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. It is, therefore, a fallacy to state that this budget is pro-poor.

Mr Speaker, I am disappointed that the Government can use people who have no idea of what they want to say. It is disappointing that they can parade a poor peasant farmer with his kachawa cap on television and make him say that this is a pro-poor budget in a speech that he was not even able to read properly. Why should we use the poor people, …

Mr D. Mwila: Manufactured by the MMD.

Mr Kambwili: … sponsored by the MMD Government, to try and mislead the people that this budget has something for them?

Mr Speaker, I would like to come to the issue of mining. This Government has totally destroyed the mining industry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: This Government …

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise a very serious point of order on Hon. Kambwili, who is debating on the Floor of this House. Is he in order to insinuate that we, the MMD, sponsored someone wearing a cap to portray a picture that the budget is pro-poor, when, in actual fact, the budget, which was presented in this august House, is one full of developmental aspects and wisdom?

I need your very serious ruling, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Speaker: The hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, in raising that point of order on the speech of the hon. Member for Roan, was yesterday reminded to take notes so that when he debates, he will be in a position to defend the budget. What he is doing now gives the impression that he wants to debate through points of order …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … and that does not help. Therefore, the hon. Deputy Minister should be ready to take the Floor and defend the budget.

The hon. Member for Roan may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I was saying that this Government has totally destroyed revenue from the mining sector. As it stands now, Zambians are not benefiting anything from our God-given mineral resources, particularly copper.

Mr Speaker, we have given many incentives and exemptions to the mining industry. Consequently, when we give these exemptions, we do not understand exactly who we are trying to impress. For instance, in Luanshya, the Chinese have been given an exemption of US $9.8million in mineral resource tax. Furthermore, in my hand, I have a copy of the Statutory Instrument No. 69, which I will lay on the Table, which seeks the transfer of ordinary shares in Luanshya Copper Mine Plc to be exempted from property tax.

Mr Speaker, day in and day out, this Government has been complaining about lack of resources. They have lamented that they cannot carry out projects for the poor because they do not have money. How, then, do you give out US $9.8million and do away with property transfer tax? When the poor people in Zambia sell a house, they have to pay property transfer tax. Who are we trying to impress? You want to take everything which belongs to the Zambians and simply give it all away. Can we check the direction in which we are moving? This is becoming dangerous for the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We will end up developing countries such as China and many others where these investors come from …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: …if we continue giving rebates this way.

Mr Speaker, when I debated last year on this issue, I mentioned that there were certain reasons I would not want the Chinese to take over Luanshya Mine even though, in the end, I accepted that we needed them and I welcomed them.  However, when you go to Luanshya and see what is happening at the moment, it is a sad situation. They are building a lot of hostels and a very big kitchen at the Presidential Lodge for the Chinese that they intend to bring to work in the mine.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Aah! Shame!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, we must be very careful with the way we are allowing these Chinese labourers to be brought in Zambia. In fact, there is a notion that these Chinese labourers are prisoners. When you transfer people from one country to another to go and work for nothing, it is tantamount to human trafficking. We passed a law against human trafficking in the House yet, this Government is encouraging human trafficking to be taking place in this country. We must check the way we are bringing these labourers into Zambia. Otherwise, we are killing our own people because, instead of providing jobs for them, we have allowed Chinese criminals to come and work in our mines. This is extremely dangerous.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr Speaker: Order!

Will the hon. Member for Roan categorically state that he has irrefutable evidence that those Chinese are prisoners? Do you have that evidence?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I said that there is a notion that these Chinese labourers are prisoners.

 Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: If indeed, they are Chinese prisoners, then, we re killing our own people by bringing them in to come and work in the mines because we need to create employment for our own people. We are not going to accept a situation where just next door to my house, where the Director’s Lodge is, the mine is building a wall fence and the   bricklayers and the people that are supervising the works are Chinese. Really, the easiest thing to do in Zambia is to learn bricklaying. Instead, we have to import the Chinese to come and do bricklaying in Luanshya. It is shameful! We must be ashamed of ourselves. We need to create jobs for our people.

If mining companies cannot pay tax, the best thing we can do is for them to pay salaries to our own Zambians so that through those salaries, Zambians can pay Pay –As-You-Earn (PAYE), which will go to the Government. Now, if you continue bringing even bricklayers to come and work in our mines, where are we getting to?

Mr Speaker, during the global crunch, they were saying that they were paying suppliers after ninety days because of the problems they were facing. Now, the price of copper is at US $6, 000.00 per tonne, but KCM has continued paying its suppliers after ninety days. This means that it is using the money from the suppliers to finance its operations. It pays its supplier after it sells the copper which it produced using what was provided by the suppliers. These people said that they were investors who were going to inject capital in the mining industry so that they could run it properly. Why should they use our own Zambian money for three months before they pay us? We have been complaining about this fact on the Floor of this House. Last time, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development stood on the Floor of this House and said that it is a business transaction which is agreed upon between the people that are supplying and the people that are being supplied.

Sir, let me declare interest because I am also a supplier. There has been no time that we have agreed that they must pay us after ninety days. Why should we be paid after ninety days? This Government must look at that issue seriously and sort out KCM. When ZCCM had problems, it was able to pay at least within sixty days. Why should we allow a foreign company to come and take our copper and pay its local suppliers after ninety days? I am appealing to this Government to proactively sort out this problem. Zambian contractors are also facing a lot of problems not only at KCM, but throughout the mining industry.

Sir, most of the companies that are doing development works underground are Peruvian companies using our own Zambians who have the experience. All the Peruvians do is to come with briefcases and just because they are Peruvian, they easily register companies and start the works. When you go to the actual site, there is no Peruvian there. There are just Zambians doing all the work. At the end of the day, the money that is being made from the transactions is being externalised. The investors externalise the money to their countries of origin. We must be very careful in what we do. We need to support and protect our Zambian people from being exploited business wise.

Mr Speaker, ZCCM went down eleven years ago. This Government has failed to pay ex-ZCCM Ndola Copper Refinery workers their dues for eleven years now. Some of these people have even died and some of them have even run mad because they have nothing to feed their families on and their children cannot go to school. It is now eleven years down on the line. The Government promised that it was going to take over the payments of the employees from RAMCOZ who took over the Ndola Copper Refinery. You paid a total of US $35 million to the people in Luanshya quite alright, but you have failed to pay the other people who were based in Ndola. My appeal to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development is that you should look into this issue very seriously and make sure that our brothers and sisters are paid what is due to them. They worked for this money and, therefore, they deserve to have it. When a person works, he or she needs to be paid. Yet, our brothers and sisters are suffering in Ndola without being paid their terminal benefits. This is a serious issue that we must look at.

Sir, let me now talk about National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) payments for former RAMCOZ employees in Luanshya. When Hon. Magande was Minister of Finance and National Planning, we started the process of paying them and we were almost completing it. Now, does it mean that when you change the hon. Minister in charge of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning in the same Government, everything changes? We were promised that the money owed to the former RAMCOZ employees was going to be given to the Administrator-General who is the official receiver of RAMCOZ this year. To date, this money has not been given to the Administrator-General. People want their money. They are suffering and cannot take their children to school. Why is this Government so rude to the people that served the mining company diligently?

Mr D. Mwila: They even voted for them.

 Mr Kambwili: They also voted for them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Why are you punishing the people? Please, Mr Speaker, through you, I am appealing to this Government to seriously look into this issue and sort out the matter of NAPSA payments to ex-ZCCM employees.

Mr Speaker, it is the first time since I have been in this House that we have not seen any projections, whatsoever, regarding the income that we are going to get from the mining companies. The reason for this is simple. It is because under the new arrangement of the variable tax, it is extremely difficult to determine what profit these mining companies are going to make. That is why we, in the Opposition, have been insisting that windfall tax should be reinstated because under this tax, you can easily project the price of copper ten months from now and you can also project how much money you are going to get from these mining companies.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, this Government has killed the people of Zambia by not…

Mr Speaker: Order! Find a better word than ‘kill or killed. ‘You have used it twice.

 You may continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I thank you for that guidance.

Mr Kambwili drank some water.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, this Government has made most of the Zambian people destitute because it cannot collect enough revenue to look after its people. I want to warn it that the pact is coming

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: When the UPND/PF Pact comes to power, those in Government will see that they have been playing with power.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We shall show them how power should be used. We are going to use power for the betterment of the people of Zambia while they are using power for the betterment of their own pockets.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) is another disaster. Why should we allow ordinary Zambians to pay more than the mining companies? Kansanshi Copper Mine pays half of what the ordinary consumers pay for electricity. Yet, it is busy declaring profits. The poor people in Kalingalinga and Mpatamatu are paying and subsidising the electricity for giant companies like Lumwana.

 Mr Speaker, I thought we had agreed on the Floor of this House that we had done away with such development agreements. If we have done away with these agreements, why is it that up to now, Kansanshi Copper Mine continues to pay only half of what ordinary Zambian household customers are paying to ZESCO?   

Mr Speaker, I now wish to talk about the projects being done by ZESCO. Ordinary Zambian customers contribute 70 per cent of the money required for these projects. ZESCO only contributes 30 per cent, but it has increased the tariffs by 35 per cent. We have failed to give the Zambians a decent tax threshold. What are we doing to the people?

Mrs Phiri: Killing them!

Mr Kambwili: You are killing the people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Increase the tariffs by 35 per cent …

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

Mr Kambwili: Sorry Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘killing’.

You are making the people destitute. If you increase the tariffs by 35 per cent then you must give the Zambian workers a tax threshold of K2 million per month. Then, we will appreciate. A threshold of K800,000 per month is peanuts. There is nothing that you have given the Zambians.

Let me tell you. When the pact comes …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … to power in less than two years, it is going to put more money in people’s pockets.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili: We are going to give a free tax threshold of K2 million. This will automatically be a salary increment to the Public Service workers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We are going to do it because this Government has failed. This Government has just kept asking the civil servants to lead a life of sacrifice. There will be no sacrifice as long as you continue giving the Chinese companies exemptions.

This is a year for civil servants to ask for the decent wage that they deserve.

Mrs Mwamba: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: There is nobody who can live on K1.5 a month when houses in Lusaka are going for K2 million or K4 million per month …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: …, but you pay a teacher K250,000 as housing allowance. Do you want them to live in the bush, under trees? Where do you expect them to rent a house for K250,000?

The same sad story applies to the police. You have discontinued paying housing allowances to the police officers who are not accommodated. Where do you expect them to live? That is the reason the police have started stealing because most of them have now started to rent servants’ quarters, thus mingling with criminals. That is where they are learning the bad habits. At least, if you put them in a police camp, they are protected. Currently, the Government does not do that. The Government has built twenty-eight houses which have made them to start happily saying that it has built houses for the police. How can you build twenty-eight houses against 6,000 police officers? The people from the Executive come here and say that the Government is building houses. The Government is not building sufficient houses.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Let us take issues of national development seriously. Finally, I wish to say that the pact is coming and we shall arrest you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: With these few words, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order! Not so fast. Withdraw the words ‘we shall arrest you.’

Mr Kambwili: I withdraw the phrase and replace it with ‘you will be accountable for what you are doing.’

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Mbewe): Mr Speaker, those Members on your left who are claiming that they will form the next government will not do it.

Laughter

Mr Ndalamei: Point blank!

Mr Mbewe: They will not do it in the sense that we produce quality work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Our quality work can be seen from the Budget which the hon. Minister of Finance and National and National planning has produced

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, if there is somebody on your left who has never benefited from the budgets we have produced, including this latest budget which we have again produced, that person should challenge me. That person should challenge me if I am not correct.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the people on your left have benefited more from our budgets which we produced in this House.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, let me salute you for having given me this opportunity to raise a point of order.

Sir, I rise on a serious point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to insinuate that this Government has been producing quality work and yet vehicles are still queuing up at filling stations for fuel? Is he in order? I need your ruling.

Hon. Government Members: He is in order!

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Ukamba chani?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi …

Mr Mbulakulima: Chilubi Island!

Mr Speaker: Order! 

The hon. Member of Parliament for Chilubi is reminded of the fact that the parties on my left, not all of them, but the majority of them, have been denouncing the Budget which has been produced by the Executive on my right. The House will recall that when a point of order was raised on my right that the people from the left were damaging their Budget, I said to them, “It appears you have taken it upon yourselves to ruin whatever it is you are trying to do.” However, when they are now replying to ruin your arguments, you raise points of order.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: They are free to debate, as you did, and ruin your arguments.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Deputy Minister continue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer, hammer!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the hon. Member who has just raised that point of order was seen a few weeks ago on television thanking the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government that it has done very well in his constituency.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Is that not the quality work that we are talking about? He is a hypocrite, I am sure.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! Order! That word is not parliamentary.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word ‘hypocrite’ and replace it with the phrase…

Ms Lundwe: Double dealer!

Mr Mbewe: … ‘double dealer’…

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is even worse. You find another word or phrase.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, just as I mentioned earlier on that the Budget …

Mr Speaker: Order! You need to withdraw the phrase ‘double dealer’.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: I withdraw the phrase ‘double dealer’ and replace it with the phrase ‘economic plunderer’.

Laughter

Ms Lundwe: Another one!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Deputy Minister, this House is very serious. You cannot go on saying those things. Use parliamentary language and you know what it is.

Interruptions

Mr Mushili: Takwata parliamentary language!

Hon. Government Member: Which word now?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, thank you for your guidance. I withdraw the phrase ‘economic plunderer’.

Mr Mbewe: The Budget which was presented by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is one of the best budgets I have ever seen.

Mr Kambwili: Ikaleni naimwe, yama.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: It is globally focussed and looks into the future of all Zambians.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: It is very unfortunate that some people are saying that this Budget has not catered for the poor. Mr Speaker, I would like to challenge the previous speaker who said that this Budget has not taken the poor into consideration. This Budget is so well presented that even the poor are catered for.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, this issue is coming in two forms. The first is that the person who does not understand this budget has never gone to school…

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Secondly, he may have gone to a wrong school.

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, since the MMD came into Government, we have seen the development of schools. No hon. Member on your left would challenge me that in their constituency, no new schools have been built. In every constituency there are new schools being built.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, we are very grateful to the Minister of Finance and National Planning that, this year, he has increased the amount of money to constituencies so that more schools are built.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: What can be better than that? The intakes in colleges have increased and you have seen colleges changing to universities and this is a sign that…

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: …education is growing and this is going to make the people enjoy the fruits of our country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, on health, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has allocated enough money to this sector and this is very good. I am thanking the hon. Minister because a lot of hospitals have been built and we are still building some more. A lot of health facilities have also been budgeted for and we are going to build them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, we implement whatever we plan. In the health sector, we have looked at the expansion of colleges for nurses. There is a shortage of personnel in the Ministry of Health but the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has taken care of that. We expect that things will be much better than they are at the moment because of the well-articulated budget which was presented.

Mr Speaker, on agriculture, I heard some people saying we have moved from eight to four bags of fertiliser. One thing the people on your left should know is that this Government values agriculture and to achieve results, we are looking at the rural set up. The number of co-operatives has increased, and what this Government is doing is to make sure that a lot of our farmers access fertiliser.

Mr Speaker, this Government has made it very clear that the four-pack package is going to benefit a large number of our farmers. I also heard somebody say that the budget has not touched the issue of employment.

Mr Speaker, employment is not about white collar jobs. When we build more schools, people will get employed. When we talk about building more hospitals, people will get employed. When we talk about agriculture, people get employed and even by re-opening the mines which were closed, people are employed. For your information, this Government is determined to make sure that the mines are working. Some hon. Members are supplying Maheu to the Chinese whom they are despising.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Kambwili in Luanshya!

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Ka Tona iwe!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, this Government is serious about bringing development…

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mbewe: This development is not only for MMD, hon. Members, but even for those…

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that this Government, under the able leadership of the MMD, is very determined to open up a lot of mines, some of which are being prospected.

Mr Speaker, when these mines are opened, employment will be created and an enabling environment for business will be created. I was also saying that there are some hon. Members who are suppliers to the mines. They supply Maheu and scrap metal.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Kambwili!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, it is a sign that the mines are really assisting us, as Zambians. The people on your left are benefiting from the budgets which are presented in this House. On roads, the Government has procured equipment which is working on our rural roads and these are not only for the MMD but for all Zambians.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the MMD is a very good party in the sense that it gives even those who are sinners.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: It is like God…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The people listening out there would not like to hear us calling each other sinners. Can you use another word?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word “sinner” but I would like to say that the MMD is like God who even gives to those who do not even go to Church. Rain falls on the heads of people who do not go to Church. Even if you do not go to Church, rain will still fall on your field and this is what the MMD does. Even if you do not support it, they will still fund you and do projects in your constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would like to say that this country is for all of us and so whoever is in power must be supported. When people are criticising, it should be constructive criticism.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: When we are being criticised, we absorb the criticism and correct the situation, but where people are just busy trying to provoke the situation or mislead the nation, it becomes unfortunate. When leaders of some unions come to the House, some hon. Members start to champion their cause by being seen to speak for them. The unions have their own spokespersons…

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, the people out there have their own representatives and when hon. Members come here to lobby for salaries for them, it becomes unfortunate.

Mr Speaker, I would like to put it on record that the development…

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let me, once again, say what has been said earlier by the hon. Mr Speaker that  let us debate, be tolerant and give each other the opportunity to debate. If you have something that you really disagree with, you will have the opportunity to debate, but if it is one who has already debated, then you can go to your colleague who has not debated and ask him to put the picture correct. I will, however, allow you to make that point of order.

Hon. Government Members: The last one.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I stand on a very serious point of order. Members of Parliament represent everybody, including workers. Is that hon. Minister, who is waffling, in order …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Sometimes, you make it difficult for us to give you points of order if  what you are going to say is as you have said it because, then, we realise you do not want to convince each other. So, please, be humble in your use of language.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I withdraw the word. Is that hon. Minister, who is debating so badly without reading as per guidance of the Hon Mr Speaker that hon. Ministers and Deputy Ministers must confine their debate to the notes that are written for them by their ministries, in order to insinuate that Members of Parliament cannot come to this House and advocate for better salaries for our employees, who we represent as voters? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is correct that we are here to talk on behalf of our constituents, be they workers or whatever. So, hon. Minister, as you debate, please, take that point of order into account.

Can you continue, please?

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I would like to tell the people on your left that this country belongs to all of us and we must see that it develops. We should also pay special respect to some hon. Members of Parliament who are here like Hon. Munkombwe and Hon. Mwaanga for laying a strong foundation. That is why we are now enjoying ourselves here. Equally ourselves, despite enjoying this democracy, we are supposed to work together and make sure that our country develops to greater heights.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, it is not only the people on your right who are supposed to develop this country. That is for all of us in this House. This is collective responsibility. Now, being out there and trying to get power from the MMD using unconstitutional means will not help the Zambians because all of us are fishing from the same pond. Therefore, there is need to have a sense of unity where all of us must fight disease, poverty, illiteracy and ignorance. Therefore, I am asking the hon. Members on your left to humbly support this Budget because it means well. It is not segregative or hollow, but it is well condensed and meant to deliver to the people of Zambia including those in the rural areas. I have a very strong conviction that if this Budget is properly followed, by next year, when we look at the 2011 Budget, a lot of success will have been scored and those on your left will agree with me.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Ponyax.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor on the Minister’s Budget Speech for 2010.

Mr Speaker, allocating resources that are not adequate when the needs are great is always a very difficult affair. When I worked in Government I worked in one of the ministries which is quite powerful, but I did not prefer to serve as Minister of Finance and National Planning where you are trying to allocate resources which are not adequate. So, this is a difficult position, but generally, I thought the hon. Minister made a bold and positive attempt to allocate inadequate resources to many sectors with growing demands for services and resources. Here, I am looking at the allocation to education, for example, which in spite of the difficulties, seems to have received a reasonable amount. In fact, on that one, we can say he has scored.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, in other areas, the needs are greater than the resources that have been allocated. Perhaps, what must be understood is that the size of our economy has not grown with the population. At independence, in 1964, the population of Zambia was 3,495,000. It was just under 4 million. Today, the population is about 12 million. It has grown about three times. The question is: Has our economy grown commensurately? I think the answer is no. The population keeps on growing, but our ability as a country to produce enough resources that will be commensurate with the population seems to have eluded us. Do we have a population policy in the country? I know that under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, there is a unit that deals with population and I think we are even going to have a seminar in Livingstone either this week or next week. Why is it that we, as a House, do not seem to know much about it and yet, we deal with the people and population and we need to articulate these issues of population? It is true that our country is quite large and we could have even twice the population that we have, but do we have the resources? These are issues that must be looked into because they are affecting what we are able to give or allocate to each unit.

Mr Speaker, clearly, we have had a difficulty as a country to try to diversify the economy over the last four decades. Our attempts have not been that successful. So, what do we do as leaders? What approach, as political leaders, should we take to these problems? What I tend to see in our country is a situation of trying to pull each other down …

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, if you look at the debates in this House over this Motion, yesterday and even today, we tend to spend much more time politicking and scoring points over each other and promising how much better we are going to be or how the others are going to be relegated to the dustbin of history. However, I do not know if this will, in fact, help us build a better Zambia. My approach would be to look at ourselves as members of a football team. In the game of football, if you are playing as a team, you want to win because, if you win, each one gets some kind of allowances but, obviously, the scorers or coaches get a little bit more than the others, but we also want to win. So, the idea is to play and support each other, pass the ball to the person who can score rather than give it to somebody who is going to miss.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, our results will be better if we try to co-operate because we cannot all be captain of the team at the same time. We cannot all be strikers and coaches at the same time. However, we can all contribute. When we see that there is a problem, I think we should put our heads together. If those of us on this side say we will not participate or help, that is not good. If you, our colleagues on that side, refuse to listen even to well-intentioned advice, then, I am afraid, as a team, we will not do very well.

However, the hon. Members on your right, the Executive who are, therefore, captaining the ship, will have the greater blame falling on them, especially when they refuse to listen.

I would like to draw the attention of the House to page 22 of the hon. Minister’s Budget Speech where he revealed the total resource envelope for the 2010 Budget. The total revenue that will be available, according to the hon. Minister, is K16,717,800,000,000. Yet, let us look at the sources of this revenue because that is where the worry is. Under direct taxes, all the companies in the country are contributing only K1.3 trillion through company tax. This is only about 11 per cent of the total Budget. Mineral royalty tax is K244 billion, which is about 1.4 per cent of the Budget. Pay as You Earn, which is the tax paid by individual workers, amounts to K3.249 trillion and this is about 27 per cent of the Budget.

Mr Speaker, it would appear that the average working person is subsidising the tax obligations of companies and this is not the first time we have mentioned this in this House. This means that these taxes have to be used to construct our roads, schools and other social infrastructure. We expect companies that, sometimes, make a lot more money and use these facilities more, to pay a little bit more tax than an individual worker. However, I do not think this is actually happening.

Zambia has been blessed with a lot of minerals and mining is really the mainstay of the country’s economy. However, when we look at what is happening with regard to mining, the contribution of this industry to the Budget is becoming smaller every year. In the past few years, the mining industry was doing so poorly that, at one time, the Government had to sell the mines to private investors. The mines were almost literally given away because the Government did not have resources to run them.

Nevertheless, as time went by, things started improving. For almost three to five years, this side of the House kept asking the Government to introduce taxes that would be commensurate with the income the mines were getting. Unfortunately, our friends in the Government were not listening. We were calling for the introduction of windfall tax and an increase in mineral royalty tax which, at one time, was 0.6 per cent. After a lot of debate, mineral royalty tax was eventually increased and, in 2008, the Government agreed with us and introduced windfall tax. It is important to recall and everybody knows that at this time prices of copper had soared from about US $1,600 per tonne, when we sold the mines, to US $8,000 per tonne. This has never happened in the history of copper mining in the world. It took a lot of pleading and prodding from this side and from outside this House for the Government to act and, in the end, it did move.

What is perplexing is that when the Budget for this year was presented, the Government decided to remove the windfall tax. Of course, the reason was that the prices of copper had fallen and, therefore, we could not tax the mines that way because they needed money. There was a lot of debate from this side of the House and we explained that the tax had to be left as it was because it only applied when the prices of copper had risen. What has happened now is that copper prices have started going up, but there is no windfall tax. Of course, there has been an argument that we will collect more money because there is variable tax.

However, Mr Speaker, I would like to point out something. The investors who come to Zambia are not philanthropists. They are not charitable institutions and come here to make money. If they can get away without paying tax, they will do so. That even applies to our own local investors. If they can also get away without paying tax, they will not pay. On the other hand, we know that computing variable tax is a problem because companies always bring in dubious expenses and eventually end up showing very little profit.

In fact, in the mining industry, it is very common for companies, when they make a lot of money, to avoid taxes by simply saying that they have reinvested. So, in spite of whopping incomes, they will not pay any profit taxes because it is very difficult to pin these people down. We all know that some traders maintain two books of accounts. One book is for the tax collectors and another for themselves. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) do not have the capacity to monitor these companies very closely.

Mr Speaker, the beauty of windfall tax is that when the prices of copper have increased beyond US $5,000, as we had put in the law, we can easily see that if, for example, 600,000 tonnes of copper is sold, we are supposed to collect so much. There would be no argument about it. It is the same thing with the mineral royalty tax. I, therefore, do not understand why are we removing a tax which can help develop the country and which is easier to collect. I am not convinced that this is the right move because, as I have said, it is very difficult for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to attend to our health, roads and all other needs.

Hon. PF Member: CDF.

Dr Machungwa: Yes, even the CDF is not enough. In fact, one of the things I am lamenting is that there is very little allocation to marine transport in the country. I come from an area where everything depends on water transport. I cannot communicate with my constituents and, therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to allocate a little bit more money to the Ministry of Communications and Transport to ease communication around the country. It is, however, very difficult for me to say put in more money when there is no revenue. Clearly, the average person on the street should not pay that much in terms of tax. I am urging our colleagues on that side to take this into account.

Mr Speaker, I do not know what it is when people sit on that side of the House. We have colleagues like Hon. Magande, who is the former hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and who, when sitting in the Front Bench, was also very difficult and did not want to listen to us. When I talk to Hon. Magande now, we agree with each other. Are we not members of the same team?

Laughter

Mr Magande: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Hon. Machungwa.

Mr Magande: Mr Speaker, I know I will have the opportunity to ruin his argument, but is he in order to say that I never listened, and yet it was during my tenure as Minister of Finance and National Planning that the windfall tax was introduced by this House? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: This is why we advise against the mentioning of names in debates, but since Hon. Magande has indicated that he will have time to ruin your argument, we will allow you to continue debating.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, I accept that it was during the time of Hon. Magande  as Minister of Finance and National Planning that windfall tax was introduced, but we had to arm twist him for several years before he agreed.

Laughter

Dr Machungwa: That is what I am saying. Now, he is with me and I am very happy.

What I am saying is that we are members of the same team playing for Zambia. Therefore, let us agree and when we see something wrong, it should not be a question of personal dislike or of a given leader. In my opinion, if there are more resources for the people of my constituency and the people of Zambia that is the right way forward because it is not possible for all of us to be in front. Others have to be in the rear. I know, of course, that certain people are saying, “We are jumping there next time.” It is not that easy. We are going for the 2011 General Elections and the people of Zambia will have a chance to choose their leader. However, our advice is that let our colleagues, if they want to continue ruling, listen to some of these issues because we mean well.

I believe that it is also important, hon. Minister, to, maybe, introduce in your ministry, a standing unit to work with the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) to continuously look at the issue of increasing the tax base.

Mr Speaker, I drove to Luapula over the weekend and between Lusaka and Kabwe, we were in a convoy. In fact, we were in a convoy all the way to Kapiri Mposhi. We could not move very fast because the traffic was jam packed all the way. Why can we not introduce toll fees or something of that kind on our roads so that these heavy vehicles that are passing through our roads can pay? Let us begin looking at other ways of raising more income because, obviously, looking at the way our resources are, at the moment, we will not go very far.

 However, I am very happy as I give another aspect of the Budget in that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has, in fact, reduced the contribution of donors, the bilateral partners in his Budget. Their percentage contribution is under 29 per cent. If you go back about ten years ago, their contribution was as high as 60 per cent. In other words, we are moving in the right direction.

I know that there are threats and withdrawals of support in the health sector and, in fact, this is why the allocation there is not like it was last year. However, I believe this is the right way forward.

As far as we are concerned on this side of the House, some of us, if you do the right thing, shall applaud you, but when we think that there is something not right, we shall say so. I believe, wholeheartedly, that you have to do something about the tax regime, especially as it involves the mining sector. If we say that these people are going to be investing, but at no profit and after fifteen years, they would have gone, when are we going to get back our profit as a nation? Hon. Minister and your Government, these are issues to think about very seriously.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, may I thank you most heartily for affording me this opportunity to make my comments on the Budget. However, this is a debate where you are, by right, able to stray into some politics.

Mr Speaker, history has it that from 1962 to 1972, the southerners lived under the Opposition. When I joined the United National Independence Party (UNIP), at one occasion, I interpreted the speech of a senior hon. Minister who said that the Southern Province had developed to high standards. He further said that he wanted other provinces to reach the same level. This angered me because it meant that while other provinces were going to be developed, the development of the Southern Province would remain stagnant. Immediately this statement was made, I lost my temper and could not interpret any more. I asked Mr Philip Maambo to do it.

There is a trend of us being known as the people who are the liberators of democracy. Therefore, we must bear the burden of maintaining democracy which other provinces do not do so.

Mr Speaker, I was once insulted by some well-to-do farmers and friends. They said I was one silly man and when I inquired why, their response was that I supported a government which was impoverishing the people. I then said, “So what?” to which their response was, “Wait, next time we are coming to replace you.” I then asked them to answer nine direct questions I was going to pose. Firstly, I asked them if they were aware that the MMD secured zero seats at parliamentary level in the Southern Province and they agreed. Then I asked them where else they were dominant and if they were in Lusaka. They acknowledged that they were not.

Mr Munkombwe: I further asked if they were in the Eastern Province, …

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Munkombwe:  … the Copperbelt Province, …

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Munkombwe: …. the Luapula Province and, …

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Munkombwe: … the Northern Province…

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Munkombwe: Please, I will answer for myself.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I then pointed out to them that they had secured five noes. I further asked them and they agreed that their party was represented by one person in the Western Province and that was in the Luampa Constituency? Then, I asked them if they agreed that they were represented by two people in the North-Western Province and they kept quiet. Furthermore, I told them that the late Anderson Mazoka, that great son of Zambia, was able to influence four provinces, the Western, North-Western, Central and Southern provinces, but when he died that national party, the United Party for National Development (UPND), which I helped to co-found …

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: … if you do not know, ask the people who live there and they will tell you - failed to do so.

Interruptions

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, when Mazoka died, there was a pronouncement made by two powerful politicians who said what I think all of us are old enough to know. They said this party would be led by a Tonga person and that those who were not Tonga but thinking that they could lead the party were playing with fire in their hands. That was the end of that party.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Munkombwe: There is a decent way of saying “question”, …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … at least in here. Now, what happened, thereafter, was that they harassed Mr Sakwiba Sikota who was then the First Vice-President …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kakoma: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us not debate while seated. A point of order has been raised. Let us hear it.

Mr Kakoma:  Mr Speaker, I thank you for allowing me to raise a very serious point of order. Sir, you have always guided us to debate and not tell stories in this House. Is the hon. Deputy Minister for Southern Province in order to ignore your previous guidance and continue telling us archaic stories of some people who talked about tribalism in the UPND who have since defected to the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD)?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: That is precisely why the Chair listens and advises. You will recall that someone talked about political parties such as the UPND/PF Pact and so on and we allowed those issues to be discussed, but only up to a point. Let us listen and if there is anybody who wants to counter this debate, that person will be given the opportunity to do so.

The hon. Deputy Minister may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, we have been threatened with the coming of the UPND/PF Pact. I want to see how the pact will be and I will help them. We know …

Mr Kambwili:  I do not know if iwe, mudala, ukesa.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Munkombwe: It is wishful thinking …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are making it very difficult for the Chair to ignore such remarks. I have heard what the hon. Member for Roan has said and such kind of remarks will invite hon. Members on my right to pass comments and it can get out of control. Let us, please, establish order. However injured you may feel, give time to the person on the Floor to debate and, as I said, if you will be given the opportunity to counter his debate, do so.

The hon. Deputy Minister for Southern Province may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, people should not talk about the coming of the pact because it is a fallacy. I want to ask one question and I will answer it. Most of the hon. Members from Luapula Province have been harassed by their party leaders. How possible is it, for anybody who reads political history, to defeat Elizabeth Chitika in her constituency?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think the hon. Deputy Minister for the Southern Province is trying to make a point, but there is another way that can be done without necessarily mentioning names. You can make your point, but avoid mentioning names in that particular regard.

You may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Thank you, Sir. When you harass individual hon. Members, no matter how right you think you are, you are not adding any value to your status. You are merely subtracting. There will be a vacuum created by other people which will add value to us, who are in the MMD, and that vacuum is being created by another party in some province. I will be there in 2011. God loves me.

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Let me tell you. You see, Mr Speaker …

Mr Kambwili: Ulefwa lelo ubushiku.

Mr Munkombwe: Those who are saying ulefwa lelo …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … I will continue to be there and I will be there.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: When you wear an ethnic tag on your forehead as a political party, you will not stop other people from talking about it. Why do you lean on a rotten tree when you can lean on a tree that has life? MMD has life.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: MMD is the only party which is represented all over.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair will listen up to a point and if you remember, we learnt a lot of things yesterday. However, I would like to advise the hon. Deputy Minister for the Southern Province to move on to the main subject because if you continue discussing the parties per se, we will get lost. The hon. Deputy Minister should discuss the Budget.

You may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, the Budget is related …

Hon. UPND Member: Let us wait and see.

Mr Munkombwe: Well, I am not scared of anything and I do not react when you are debating. I respect the uncle whom I elected, so …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I cannot allow that. There can be no debate across the Floor. Do you want the Chair to look helpless? I will not tolerate this. If it is repeated, I will take appropriate action.

The hon. Deputy Minister for the Southern Province may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Thank you, Sir.

Sir, political reality demands that you recognise leadership which is delivering in the Southern Province. In Kalomo alone, about 3.8 million bags of maize have been produced. In the Chikanta area alone, 1.3 million bags of maize were produced to the tune of K8 billion. Is that not development?

Hon. Opposition Member: Talk about roads.

Mr Munkombwe: I will come to that.

On the issue of roads, the Government has worked on most of the roads in the Chikanta area which is in the Kalomo Parliamentary Constituency. We are now targeting to work on roads in Dundumwenzi. The Monze/Nico Road has been done. The blind have ears and so they can also confirm this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: The Batoka/Maamba Road has also been worked on. Those who are blind will hear that the road has been worked on. The Zimba/Livingstone Road is being done except that it is being done at a slow pace. I agreed with the hon. Member for Katombola when she expressed her sentiments over this road. The contractor is very slow. We will ask them to jack up.

As regards the Choma/Nico Road, about forty-two kilometres will be worked on this year. The contractor has already worked on twenty kilometres and we are driving on the stretch that has been done. That is a credit to the MMD Government. If you want to obliterate reality …

Hon. Government Member: Twalaleka.

Mr Munkombwe: … then people will think that there is something missing in your head.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: What is happening now is that there is more money in the pockets of the farmers who are able to work hard. However, there are people who are extremely poor even in America, which is the world’s strongest economy.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: I am widely travelled and I found that in Egypt, people follow you to ask for help. They say “butsis, butsis”. This means “Help me with money to buy food”. It is normal for some people to be poor, no matter how rich others are.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Mr Munkombwe: I have never claimed to be a rich man, but I am comfortable.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: In the Tonga sense, I am extremely comfortable, though not rich, Hon. Syakalima.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I mentioned one of the people I admire for their courage. Let us, therefore, not think that we are not getting anywhere. We will not run away.

Mr Speaker, I admired the debate of Hon. Simuusa when he said that in an election that was held recently in one constituency in Solwezi, the MMD attracted no vote. That is a sign for us, hon. Ministers, to wake up. Those people are not waiting for you. They want to get what you have and get it at any cost. Can we wake up as organisers of the MMD?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: It is in our interest.

Hon. Opposition Members: Bwekeshapo!

Mr Munkombwe: However, Mr Speaker, a hunter does not tie a bell around his neck. We are being warned and we will find a way of running away. All the same, that was a genuine and sound warning. We know what we shall do about it. We are a political party with representation throughout the country, except the Southern Province.

Mr Speaker, I do not see a leader who prides oneself in being fired. If you are fired, you are not a successful politician. A successful politician is one who makes friends and is able to influence those friends. You cannot exist in politics if you are arrogant and stubborn in your leadership. They will flash you out.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, the consequence of arrogance is dismissal. However, food that drops from a master’s table is good food for the dogs.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Therefore, if you clear those people, you will push them to us and we shall accept them.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: They are very valuable. Let me tell you that we are cutting everywhere and are not sitting idle.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: The MMD is not sitting idle. With or without the pact, we will exist.

Mr Kambwili: This is not a rally!

Mr Munkombwe: This is not a rally, but you are speaking as though you are at a rally. You are very uncouth.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I was forced to respond, but I shall not do that any more.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: The art of civilised debate is to wait for your turn, which I normally do. I never even rise on points of order. I know that the hon. Members of Parliament from the Southern Province are some of the best brains in this country. There is no chaff, if that word is allowed. There is no ruffian.

Mr Kambwili: Chizhyuka.

Mr Munkombwe: Chizhyuka is a noble man. He spoke about the pact …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Munkombwe: … when it was …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The people on my left are trying to get you off your line of thought and you are falling into that trap. Ignore the people who are heckling you. This does not mean that those heckling should continue derailing him. Can you give him the opportunity to debate? 

Mr Munkombwe: Our people should know that they are merely escorting others into State House.

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, I think we should not read between the lines. I would prefer that you wait until he gets to a point where it is necessary to raise a point of order. Let him continue for now.

You may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I do not think we would allow our people to escort other people into State House. We would not allow them.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Sir, political reality dictates …

Hon. MMD Member: They want to escort Sata.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … that when there is something that needs to be said, a politician should be able to summon courage to say it. Merely saying we are coming is not enough. What is your apparatus, formula, geometry or algebra of getting there? If you think you live in a clean house, there is nothing like that. The pact is dead.

Laughter

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Mwila, if I sent you out now, it would not just be for now, but for a week because I cannot take that any more.
 
The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Munkombwe: The Albidon Mine has re-opened and we will insist that the people, who worked there before, are reinstated. We will not allow them to begin to choose who should be employed. That would not be fair. That is my language when I go there. I also link up with Hon. Nkombo.

Mr Speaker, when they make demands here, they do not direct those demands to me, but to the system and I can say that we deliver.
I know there are problems in Maamba. We know what should be done and we rely on the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development who is a brilliant man. You all know that Hon. Mwale is one of the shining stars of this Government.

Mr Speaker, on schools, many schools have been built in the Southern Province. We shall have more schools in addition to the ones that we already have such as Canisius, St Josephs and others. We shall have more schools than any other area. I do not want to reveal much about that.

Mr Speaker, let us face reality and appreciate it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, I thank you and bless you for giving me this opportunity …

Hon. Government Members: Are you a pastor?

Mr Malama: At least, I do not fight. I thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing me to add a word on this Budget.

Mr Speaker, I would like to start by saying that I do not see any hope in this Budget for the people of Zambia …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: … and worse still, I get worried when I listen to an hon. Minister debating like the one who has just debated. The people on your right need to give hope to the nation, especially when they stand up to debate.

Hon. Opposition Members: hear, hear!

Mr Malama: They do not need to debate for the sake of keeping their jobs in order to look after their families. These people should know that they are there for all of us. That is why I conclude that we are suffering because we had such type of people in UNIP and MMD. My sons and daughters are equally worried.

Interruptions

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, first of all, I congratulate the great man on crushing the MMD in Kasama.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: I wish to welcome Mr G. B. Mwamba to this House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Honourable!

Mr Malama: I mean Hon. Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba. I also want to comment on what happened in Kasama. It is quite sad …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Malama: It is part of the …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Please, do not make what happened in Kasama the subject of discussion. You can mention it in passing, but come back to the main issue.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, as I look at this Budget, I also want to look at some of the resources that were been provided in Kasama. I want to start by stating that the people on your right do not listen. They claim to be a listening Government but, personally, I do not see that. They teased the people of Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency during a by-election and did the same in the Chitambo Parliamentary Constituency By-election. As if that were not enough, they went to the Kasama Central By-election and did same thing. Currently, the same thing is happening in Solwezi Central Parliamentary Constituency. They have started teasing the people of Solwezi by grading the roads.  They do not listen.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Those are not tactics to use to win by-elections. These are facts. The biggest problem we have is that people in the Government want to protect their jobs. When you have such kind of people in leadership, there are no results. What is happening here is very serious.

Mr Kambwili: Naukula mwaice!

Mr Malama: Sometimes, you cannot even connect what some hon. Ministers are talking about with the issue at hand.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: This is why I am saying that I do not see any hope from this Budget. It is because these are the same ministers who are supposed to supervise the expenditure in this Budget. How do you give hope to the Zambians if you behave that way? We do not seem to have steady leaders in place to give hope to those who have completed school.

Mr Speaker, if graders have been taken to Solwezi, it shows that the Government is managing by crisis. They have seen that there will be a by-election in Solwezi and now they have started phoning each other to see how fast they can mobilise the graders and get them there. This means that they are not ready. I do not think they will ever be ready. I think people on your right need to repent.

Mr D. Mwila: Otherwise, they will all perish, except ba Mpombo!

Laughter

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I wanted to make brief comments on this Budget because this is a repetition of what we have always been saying. I do not see any change. People need to differentiate between development and change. Most of the money in this Yellow Book will not go towards developmental issues. It would go towards change. What I mean is that when I was going through the Yellow Book, I did not see any new projects. Most of what is reflected in the Yellow Book is rehabilitation of what somebody did during the time of UNIP. That is not development. That is change. When you resurface the road from Lusaka to Kabwe, it is not development.

Laughter

Mr Malama:  This Government must know that is change because we are not seeing any new projects. We are seeing what we have already seen, but in a new fashion.

Laughter

Mr Malama:  That is change.

Ms Lundwe: Like your Safari Suit!

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I would like to talk about the Great North Road. The hon. Minister highlighted all the important projects which have been included in the 2010 Budget. I am worried because I thought the Great North Road was one of the important roads of this country, but it was not even mentioned in this House. I am telling you that what are on that road are not potholes, but pit latrines.

Laughter

Mr Malama: That is what is on the Great North Road. The road is important. That is why it is shameful for this Government not to talk about it.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I know that you want to put your strong points across but, at the same time, let us not confuse the listeners out there. Statements such as roads looking like pit latrines are not good because some people out there will not understand the context in which you are using them. Please, make your point clear.

Continue, please, hon. Member.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance. Actually, I wanted to say that there are very bad potholes on the Great North Road.

I am sure you are aware that this road is very important because most Zambian businessmen use the Nakonde Border to bring goods into the country. That is why I am very surprised that it is not reflected in the Budget. Maybe, it has been placed somewhere in the Yellow Book. However, it has not been included in the Budget Speech when other important projects have been mentioned.

Interruptions

Mr Malama: Sir, even if some hon. Members are murmuring, this is an important road. It is very shameful …

Interruptions

Mr Malama: … because the Government is supposed to understand some of these issues. This is a land locked country and you cannot expect goods to reach their destinations if such roads are not worked on.

Mr Speaker, the Government does not need to wait until they have a lot of money to work on a road. At least, they can bury the potholes so that people can drive safely. Unfortunately, because of lack of employment, boys are now stealing goods from moving trucks, as drivers cannot drive fast because of potholes. Shame!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: We are trying to advise the Government to just patch up the potholes so that drivers can maintain the same speed. This is what we are saying.

Mr Speaker, I also want to talk about rural roads, especially in my constituency. I know that the picture in my constituency is similar to that in other rural constituencies.

Interruptions

Mr Malama: Even if some hon. Members are saying, “no”, I believe the picture in Solwezi is the same as the one in the Northern Province. Solwezi is a rural constituency and I know we face the same problems. I really do not know when the Government will seriously work on the road that goes to Chief Nabwalya’s area.

Mr Speaker, when you look at the tourism potential in that area, I fail to understand why the Government cannot actually take a serious step to develop it. I will continue talking about this because there is a very big problem there. For as long as I stand in this House, I will be talking about the road that goes to Chief Nabwalya’s area. The people in that area are suffering despite having animals which are benefiting both the chiefdom and the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA). It is sad to note that the people of Chief Nabwalya’s area still do not see any hope in this Budget.

Mr Speaker, I also want to find out why this Government cannot look at the issue of working on that road seriously. I want to suggest that if they do not want to provide funds from the Budget, they can engage ZAWA to oversee the money collected from that area. Maybe, in that way, they will be able to work on that road. I think that would be good for the people of that area. It has been said that they are working on the Chipata/Mfuwe Road. I want to state that it is not the Chipata/Mfuwe Road, but the Chipata/Mambwe District Road because I do not want people out there to have a wrong picture. The name “Mfuwe” is only found in Mpika District and not in the Eastern Province. Since this Government is not listening, I will continue talking about the same matter until they come to their senses and change that name. I will repeat this several times and will bore people who will be listening to my debate in this House. I want to repeat that Mfuwe is not in the Eastern Province but in Mpika District, in Chief Nabwalya’s area. I say so because the dam called Mfuwe is found in Chief Nabwalya’s area.

Mr Mbewe: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Mr Malama: Even if twenty hon. Members stand to raise points of order, it will not help them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: What I am saying is a fact. They need to know that. The road that is being constructed is not going to the Northern Province. It is actually like, kulibonesha ta. It is in the Eastern Province.

Mr Speaker, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, if you use a word which is not part of our language in this House, do not wait for us to ask you to translate it.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, it is just a word or rather a phrase that means “showing off.”

Mr Sichilima: Awe!

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I also want to look at a few issues concerning my constituency. When I started my debate, I said that the Zambian people do not see any hope from this Budget. I say so because we have institutions such as community schools in rural areas. The money that has been allocated to the Ministry of Education will go towards the rehabilitation of old infrastructure in schools. When are we going to start building new schools?

Sir, for example, in my constituency, there are some community schools that accommodate about 800 pupils and they only have one untrained teacher each. In my constituency, there is one place called Chilima. There are a lot of pupils taught by untrained teachers. Therefore, how can we give hope to young people for them to say they can rule this nation in future? There are some areas which have been cut off completely. There is no hope at all and how can they say things are alright? How can they really say that they are doing fine? That is not doing fine. In fact, we have gone so many steps backwards. This is the reason we are saying that you need to look at decentralisation. Decentralisation is the only way we are going to develop this nation. When we talk about decentralisation, the local people will understand where there is need to take development.

Mr Speaker, while on education, I want to look at the Zambia Education Publishing House (ZEPH). This is an important institution under the Ministry of Education. At the moment, if you go to most of these schools, you will find that they do not have books. We have started seeing books imported from Botswana and Namibia. In the past, these neighbouring countries used to get books from our country. We used to have this same printing company that used to print those books we were exporting. The only market for some of these institutions which are parastatal companies is the Government.

Sir, this Government has done harm to most of these parastatal companies. They do not buy any books from ZEPH. How do you expect ZEPH to compete with these other private companies? How do you expect the company to survive? That is what is happening. Some of the infrastructure for ZEPH was sold at K1.2 billion. Those were important structures. When you look at that, I think you will agree with me that this Budget is not giving any hope to the Zambian people. The people have decided to start buying the products from private companies, leaving their own baby suffering. If they want to completely stop, why can they not finish privatising what they left? That will be fair for the people who are working there.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Munaile (Malole): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of this House. The Budget Speech by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has been received with disdain by some hon. Members of Parliament and, indeed, some sections of our society. However, allow me to say that there are some positive aspects in it.

Mr Speaker, having said that, allow me to comment on a number of issues I have deduced from the Budget which the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning may choose to address or ignore.

Sir, it is evident that the 2010 Budget, like some previous budgets, will have to be sustained by workers and consumers of goods and services. The Zambian workforce has less than 600,000 employees, and yet it will contribute, to the 2010 Budget, almost 27 per cent of the total domestic revenue in the form of PAYE.

Mr Speaker, value added tax, customs and excise duty will also contribute slightly more than 35 per cent of the total domestic revenue. When you add the two, the total is about 72 per cent of the total domestic revenue. These taxes are eventually passed on to the consumer. This is why I stated earlier that this Budget will mostly be supported by workers and consumers.

Mr Speaker, God, in his wisdom, blessed this country with copper for a purpose. It is, therefore, disheartening to see that the mining companies are not contributing much to the growth of our economy. This Government has embarked on the process of diversification. However, in the absence of financial resources to support it, it will remain just a song. The Government has put so much emphasis on tourism and agriculture in terms of diversification, and yet, these sectors are not even a priority to the Government because not much money has been allocated to them.

Mr Speaker, proceeds from the mining activities built this country. It is, therefore, cardinal for this Government to ensure that companies involved in mining contribute more financial resources to the development of our economy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Mr Speaker, liberalisation has caused anguish to many Zambians due the Government’s failure to intervene when the Zambians are being exploited. Workers are being retrenched without getting paid their benefits on time. Foreign companies externalise money as they please. Banks are charging interest rates which are outrageous and the Government says it cannot do anything about it because we are in a liberalised economy.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Munaile: Mr Speaker, even for big economies like the United States, the Government intervenes in the economy when things stop going right. Unless this Government intervenes in the economy and compels foreign companies to re-invest part of their revenue, Vision 2030 will not be realised.

The Government should work towards reducing the high levels of unemployment which cause a great deal of social distress and concern. It should stop sympathising and start to empathise with the underprivileged for this country to move forward.

Mr Speaker, sport plays a key role in human development. Despite this, the Government still underplays its importance. The Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development has many challenges and, yet, it is one of the least-funded ministries.

Mr Speaker, may I be the first to admit that this Government spends huge sums of money on the Zambia National Soccer Team. As the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ), we are grateful to His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia and the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. However, allow me to state that it is better to spend more money on the development of sport than on teams participating in competitions.

Mr Speaker, the privatisation of ZCCM demanded that the Government took up a leading role in the development of sports in this country. We will only achieve what we want if more money is spent in developing raw talent and improving infrastructure in this country.  Allow me to state that the sports infrastructure in this country needs to be improved.

Mr Speaker, the Government has done well in the education sector. However, I will not dwell on this sector because so many people have already talked about it. I would like to talk about roads.

Mr Speaker, allow me to reiterate what I have always said on the Floor of this House. Works on the Kasama/Luwingu Road have taken too long, and we cannot wait any longer. The Government needs to channel more money to the completion of this road. The Great North Road, which my colleague who debated earlier talked about, needs to be worked on because it is important to the growth of the economy of this country. The road has become very bad. When you drive on that road, you find a lot of trucks that have overturned, and yet we have not heard anything regarding the repair of this road.

The Mbesuma Bridge is cardinal to the people of Northern, Luapula and Copperbelt provinces. I have always said that the Mwanawasa Bridge in Luapula Province will not serve its intended purpose if the Mbesuma Bridge is not worked on. The Kasama/ Luwingu and Kasama/Isoka roads are also not tarred. Unless we tar these roads, and cut the distance to Dar-es-Salaam or Tanzania, the Mwanawasa Bridge will remain a white elephant and this Government would have wasted resources which should have been put to good use.

Mr Speaker, the Nseluka/Kayambi Road is important for the people of Kasama. For those who want to go to Nakonde, it is the shortest route. I want to believe that come 2010, this Government will do something about this road. As you embark on works in the Northern Circuit, please, remember that the Kasama/Mporokoso Road to Nsumbu is very important because people must have a choice whether to go through Mbala or Mporokoso. Therefore, that road should also be worked on if your desire, as a Government, to develop tourism in Northern Province is to bear any fruit.

Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health should consider giving the people of Mungwi a district hospital. The people in Malole Constituency have suffered enough and cannot wait any longer. The roads in Malole Constituency are so impassable that it takes hours for people to take their sick to the hospital in Kasama. It will help us, as a people, if this Government considered building a hospital in Mungwi District.

Mr Speaker, the Rural Electrification Programme (REP) leaves much to be desired. To date, no one knows when our areas will be electrified. For example, it has taken this Government close to ten years to electrify Kaputa District. When will they complete the entire country if one area can take so many years to be electrified?

Surprisingly, in Chief Chitimukulu’s area, the Rural Electrification Authority (REA) electrified only the chief’s palace. The people of Chitimukulu only see electricity at the chief’s palace …

Laughter

Mr Munaile: … because ZESCO is asking for too much money which our people cannot afford. The hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development should do something so that the efforts of this Government are not wasted.

In the same vein, the advertisement announcing the electrification of Chief Chitimukulu’s palace also included Kapolyo Basic School but, to the surprise of the people of Malole Constituency, no one is talking about that part of the project any more. I want to believe that the hon. Minister will revisit that issue and ensure that what was started is completed.

Sir, in conclusion, the Government should realise that money will never be enough. It is almost impossible to meet the needs of a human being due to a number of factors. Therefore, it is imperative that the Government applies the scarce resources efficiently among the competing elements. The population will continue to grow and preferences will continue to change and, therefore, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should ensure that he puts more money in the sectors of the economy with returns. Whilst we appreciate that the Government is spending a lot of money in certain sectors, at the end of the day, most of it is going to the social sectors. Therefore, their contribution to the National Treasury is almost nil or negligible

Sir, allow me to conclude by stating that the mandate to rule this country is in the hands of the MMD and those who belong to the Opposition are waiting for their time. Therefore, when we speak, it is not because we just want to criticize. It is because we want to help the Government. The choice to listen to what we say today is for those who are in Government because tomorrow may be too late. Time is now to act on what we say on this side of the House because we are as concerned as you are as far as the development of this country is concerned.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Even if they prefer not to listen to what we say from this side of the House, the people are listening and watching. You need to begin to move and do what the Zambian people expect out of you because 2011 is not far away.  You must know that even Independent hon. Members of Parliament have got ambitions for the Presidency because they also want to rule.

Hon.  Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Do not just look at the pacts. The Independent hon. Members of Parliament also want to rule this country. We will ensure that the Constitution is changed so that even Independent hon. Members of Parliament are accorded the chance to stand for the Presidency.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Mr Speaker, this country needs men and women who are bold enough to make decisions that are for the betterment of our country. If we are going to run even when no one is pursuing us, we will create problems for ourselves. It is, therefore, important for those in the Government, to take up your rightful place and lead when you have the chance.

I thank you, Mr Speaker

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya (Pambashe):  Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to express my opinion on the Motion currently on the Floor. I promise that I will be very brief.

Mr Speaker, I stand on behalf of the people of Pambashe and at the same time on behalf of those who are involved in scientific research and development. I intend to say a word on the pact which is called chilingalinga.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, the people of Pambashe have complained several times over the lack of electricity in that area. They have been crying for years and years. Now, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has indicated that the Kalungwishi Electricity Generation Project is about to become a reality.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, what does this mean to the people of Pambashe? The meaning of this project is that Luena Farm Block will be developed. To prove this, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has set aside K4.3 billion for this project.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, from the 1960s through to 2009, the people of Pambashe have been complaining over the failure by the Government to develop the Luena Sugar Project. Promises have come and gone but, now, the development of the Luena Sugar Project is a reality. There was no light at the end of the tunnel, but the light is now shining over the people of Pambashe.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Sir, I have informed the people of Pambashe about what this caring Government is doing for them.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear1

Dr Chishya: At this particular moment, the people have even reorganised themselves because I have already told them that the Outgrower Scheme is coming as another project. They are organising themselves into co-operatives in readiness for the project.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, on education, the Government has continued to provide education facilities in my area. New classrooms and new schools are coming up. A key indicator of the improvement in education facilities is the rehabilitation of the missionary schools that were built in the 1920s in Pambashe Constituency. Where there were no schools, like in the Chisembe area, a school and teachers’ houses have been built.

Sir, as I stand here, I want to say that community schools in the area have been given K180 million to build a two-classroom block.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, on behalf of the people of Pambashe the word “thanks” is not enough.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Allow me to use a Chishinga word ‘kalebalika.’

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, if I could be allowed to translate this, it means “Let the glory of God shine upon those that are ruling”.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: Lost sheep! A sheep without a shepherd!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, the scientific research and development …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are distracting his debate. Can you give him chance to be heard?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am referring to the people in front of the hon. Member debating. Could you, please, give him the chance to debate?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue.

Mr Mukanga: Niba coward aba!

Dr Chishya: On scientific research and development, let the Government be encouraged …

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Members, your colleague wants to debate but you are shouting the word ‘hammer’ and you are confusing him.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Let him debate nicely.

You may continue.

Interruptions

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, on scientific research and development, we should encourage the Government to pay much attention to research and development activities.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: At present, research and development activities are going down because of financial difficulties. Under these financial difficulties, it would be very difficult to attract people with technical knowledge to offload their technical know-how for technical and economic development in the country. To attract those people, we must find resources to invest in this area of research and development. We have got the scientific and technical cadre in the country. What is required is to arrest this cadre and put it to good use.

Mr Speaker, I have seen and heard that those who are ruling are not tolerant but we, who are accusing them, are more intolerant.

Interruptions

Dr Katema: Mad scientist!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Chilingalinga!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, allow me to say a word about the chilingalinga.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Nga watemwa ulupiya nangu uli mukote balatamfya!

Dr Chishya: We have been told that the chilingalinga is a snake with two heads.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: And it is symmetrical.

Laughter

Dr Chishya: Allow me to use …

Mr Kambwili: Like you have two legs - one in the MMD.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Kambwili, do not continue talking. I have been a teacher before and I gave you a warning. I have given you two or three warnings but you have still continued talking. You are making things difficult for yourself. This is my last warning.
You may continue.

Mr Daka: Send him out!

Dr Chishya: A chilingalinga is a snake with two heads and it is symmetrical. Let me use some chemical language here …

Laughter

Dr Chishya: … to describe it.

Hon. Member: The chilingalinga!

Dr Chishya: If you get that snake and point right in the middle and lift the two heads, one head is the exact mirror image of the other one.

Laughter

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, in scientific terms, we describe that kind of likeness as a methameric relationship.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Hammer!

Mr Chota: Whatever that means!

Dr Chishya: This means that it is a mirror image of the other. If it lifts the right head, the mirror image will show the left head. There is no co-ordination.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, it is not long ago, in 2001, when there was a by-election in Chawama and some people were attacked with machetes. They came back with a lot of cuts. There were people ‘commandeering’ such kind of behaviour. Now, some of those people are now masquerading as presidents of a certain party.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: During the funeral …

Mr Chisala: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chota: You do not even know how to debate!

Mr Mukanga: Ebu doctor fye ubu?

Mr Kambwili: You do not even know how to talk.

Interruptions

Mr Chisala: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Pambashe in order to provoke Members on your left hand side by referring to incidents which happened a long time ago? I need your serious ruling over this matter.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me take advantage of that point of order and advise the hon. Member debating to quickly finish referring to the chilingalinga and come to the Budget. You are now attracting points of order.

Interruptions

Hon. Member: He is provoking us!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You will regret it. I do not take things lightly. Can you, please, finish that point quickly and come back to the Budget?

Dr Chishya: The Budget gives an indication of development and good leadership. However, without good leadership, no matter how good the Budget is, it cannot be fulfilled amidst anarchy. It is this anarchy I was coming to which has already been exercised.

Mr Chota: Debate the Budget!

Dr Chishya: People in this country are crying for peace. They do not want anarchy. They want development.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Chishya: Hence, this Budget is talking about development and not anarchy. The people of Zambia talk about democracy which is the rule of the people in order for them to live in harmony with one another. They are not expecting a type of government which will be perpetrated by hooligans for the hooligans and by hooligans.

Laughter

Dr Chishya: Mr Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the Budget has got plenty of positive ideas and some have already been mentioned. However, the main point I have seen is reduction of the dependency on donors. That is the first step towards becoming economically independent. This is the first step and this Budget is addressing that. For this reason, we support it entirely.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

________

These adjourned at 1815 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 22nd October, 2009.