Debates- Tuesday, 24th February, 2009

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 24th February, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

BURSARY SCHEME FOR THE MINISTRY OF SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY AND VOCATIONAL TRAINING (MSTVT)

The Minister of Science Technology and Vocational Training (Mr Daka): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a ministerial statement to the House. I wish to bring to the attention of the House the important new developments in the implementation of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training (MSTVT) Bursary Scheme and lay to rest any uncertainties that may have arisen as a result of these new developments.

Madam Speaker, as hon. Members are aware, my ministry is responsible for the provision of technical and vocational skills. The Government provides skills training through the cost-sharing principle. Under this principle, the Government subsidises the cost of training through the provision of grants to training institutions while the students contribute towards the cost of training in the form of tuition fees. One consequence of the cost-sharing policy has been that it restricts access to training by the vulnerable and poor members of our society.

Furthermore, and more importantly, training programmes not perceived as marketable or guaranteeing employment, but critical to national development, such as bricklaying, carpentry and plumbing are shunned by parents and guardians. As an intervention to the above situation, my ministry, in 2002, introduced a bursary scheme with the following objectives:

(a) to provide financial support to vulnerable students in order to enable them access skills training;

(b) to encourage female students take up skills training in traditionally male dominated courses;

(c) to provide opportunities to school drop outs to access skills training; and

(d) to promote critical skills for national development.

Madam, each year, the country produces over 200,000 school leavers at Grade 7, 9, and 12 levels of which my ministry is only able to absorb about 30,000 students each year. Further, this country has a very young population with an average of 47 per cent of our population being under the age of fifteen years. This is a large number of young people that create a huge demand for skills training which our Technology, Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training (TEVET) system cannot cope with at present. This is a situation which the Government is very anxious to address. The most effective solution to the high levels of poverty that the country faces is that more of our people must acquire skills that will enable them become productive members of our society and contribute to wealth creation. Increasing access to skills training is, therefore, a major focus which will, in turn, result in wealth creation throughout the country.

Madam Speaker, the bursary scheme is an important mechanism for facilitating skills acquisition for our young people who cannot afford to meet the tuition fees charged by institutions. The scheme has, however, been faced with the challenge of very limited resources. Each year, the TEVET sub-sector receives approximately 5 per cent of the total education budget, thus, seriously limiting the capacity of the sub-sector to make the desired impact on the nation. The case for additional resources in this sub-sector cannot be over-emphasised. Due to the very limited resources available to the ministry, the bursary scheme only applies to students enrolled at institutions under the Ministry of Science Technology and Vocational Training.

This bursary scheme covers 100 per cent tuition fees, which are paid directly to the institution; boarding fees, where applicable, also paid directly to the institution; students’ book allowance, paid through the institution, and examination fees which are paid at 100 per cent.

The bursary is offered to applicants who are in possession of green national registration cards (NRCs); have the appropriate educational qualifications for the programmes selected; possess letters of acceptance from institutions under the Ministry of Science Technology and Vocational Training; meet the vulnerability criteria under the Public Welfare Assistance Scheme (PWAS) and are not more than thirty-five years old.

Madam, in the last six years of implementing the bursary scheme, over 3,500 students have been supported in the acquisition of skills. If this scheme was not in place, these students would not have been able to attain these skills.

In the course of implementing the scheme, one weakness that was identified was that over the years, its scope had proved too broad. The scheme was supporting students based on the field of study that they chose to satisfy their individual aspirations rather than on fields of study that were appropriate to national needs and critical to our development agenda. This has necessitated an adjustment to the way the bursary scheme is applied.

Madam Speaker, in 2009, the ministry is implementing a new strategy for financing TEVET institutions under the ministry that will involve making the Government a purchaser of skills in accordance with the national skills development priorities. The national priorities will be determined through the National Skills Development Plan (NSDP). The NSDP will be revised and updated regularly. A mechanism will be put in place to undertake labour needs assessment for industry every two to three years. These studies will be undertaken in collaboration with the Central Statistical Office (CSO) and will form the basis of the NSDP. This implies that priority skill areas will not be static, but dynamic to address the needs of the country.

Madam, for the medium-term period, 2009 to 2011, a study was undertaken on behalf of the ministry by CSO. The study highlighted the areas where the country needed to focus its skills development programmes and this was the basis on which the programmes on the priority list were selected. The priority programmes cover the tourism, manufacturing, construction, mining, health and information and communication technology (ICT) sectors.

Madam Speaker, at Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce, for instance, the Government will support national priority programmes such as science laboratory technician, environmental health, pharmacy, radiography and production management whereas at the Northern Technical College (NORTEC), the Government will support programmes such as mechanical engineering, instrumentation, heavy equipment repair and metal fabrication.

Madam Speaker, as you can observe, these programmes are critical to this country and we need more of our people to train in them. These are skills that affect our day to day lives, even as hon. Members of Parliament. These areas represent the skills we need to develop our constituencies. We all need electricians, plumbers, metal fabricators and bricklayers to assist us with our building projects, be it construction of our homes, clinics or schools. We need pharmacists and radiographers to attend to us in hospitals. We need mechanics for our vehicles and industrial equipment. The effectiveness of our Constituency Development Fund (CDF) is dependent on the availability of such skilled persons in our localities.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the new financing approach will, therefore, entail determining the cost of training per programme and funding according to priority skills of the country. In line with these strategic changes, the Government will desist from supporting students pursuing training in areas that are not necessarily a national priority. In so doing, the Government is not suggesting that other programmes are not important. However, at this stage of our development agenda, it is not possible for the Government to prioritise every training programme. Some programmes have sufficient demand from the private sector which is able to finance training in such programmes. Such programmes will continue to be offered in public training institutions.

Madam Speaker, this new strategy is being piloted in selected institutions with a view to it being fully operational by 2012. The piloting of the new strategy is necessary to allow lessons to be learnt and systematically address any challenge that may arise in the course of implementation. The institutions in the pilot are Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce, NORTEC, Lapidary and Gemstone Processing Training Centre, Livingstone Institute for Business and Engineering Studies and Zambia Air Training Service (ZAST). These institutions were selected because of the nature of the programmes offered and their size in order to provide lessons to be used to pull the strategy in future.

Madam Speaker, the funds to each of these institutions will be paid out on the basis of their capacity to deliver training to a specific number of students in each of the prioritised programmes on an annual basis. This will be done through the TEVET fund which will be the principal financing tool for the Government in skills training.

Madam, as a result of these important strategies, adjustments have been made for the bursary scheme. No first year student at the five selected pilot scheme centres who has not applied for admission for programmes in the priority areas will be considered for a bursary. All students wishing to access a Government bursary will be required to apply for admission in programmes classified as national priority programmes. However, exemptions will be made with regard to disabled vulnerable students in the five institutions who have been admitted in non-priority skill programmes on a case by case basis.

 Madam Speaker, the number of beneficiaries for bursaries awarded in the pilot institutions is expected to be significantly lower than previous years due to the following reasons:

(a) the bursary award under the new financing strategy covers, to a large extent, the actual cost of training as determined in conjunction with the institutions; and

(b) the bursary awards under the new financing strategy will be restricted to priority skill courses as earlier stated and the capacity of each institution to deliver these skills.

Madam Speaker, at each of the five pilot institutions, it has been recognised that there are students who were awarded bursaries prior to the pilot of the TEVET Financing Strategy. The continuing students in priority skill programmes will be handled in a similar manner as the first year students. Once the names and details of these students have been received and confirmed by the ministry, they will be forwarded to the TEVET fund for payment.

Madam Speaker, with regard to the implementation of the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training Bursary Scheme in institutions that are not in the pilot, the bursary scheme for first year students will focus on priority skill areas. All continuing students in non-priority skill areas will continue to be supported until they complete their courses. We have targeted sponsoring over 1,400 students across the country in 2009. Considering the large number of school leavers and the poverty levels in the country, a target of 1,400 can only be described as meagre. Unfortunately, this is what my ministry can afford to plan for at the current funding levels. We would love to facilitate access to skills training for many more, but we must live within our means. Until such a time that the bursary scheme is allocated significant sums of money, its coverage will remain limited and bursary places will be competitive. It is important that students from TEVET institutions under my ministry wishing to access a Government Bursary apply for admission in programmes classified as priority. Each institution under the ministry has been informed of the priority skill areas and students can obtain this information from the training institutions.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, I would like to assure the House and the nation that the Government is determined to make a difference in the way we approach skills development for the country. We are also aware that our people need to be supported through Government interventions. However, it is important that our interventions are specific, targeted and strategic in nature as we endeavour to become a middle income country by 2030.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by the hon. Minister of Science, Technology and Vocational Training.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, I wish to congratulate the hon. Minister on his ministerial statement. One of the difficulties this country has is a shortage of artisans. These are people who have special skills and training, especially those who make things. This programme is going to bring these artisans on board.

Secondly, …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You are asking a question.

Mr Matongo: Madam Speaker, that was an observation. When are you going to start liaising with the relevant ministries so that these trained people are able to form companies in places such as Choma, Lusaka and Kasama so that they can be employed at their bases? 

Secondly, when is the Kasiya Trades School next to Kasiya Business and Secretarial College going to open? I would like a definitive answer to this question.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, that is a very good, but loaded question. Even in the past, the ministry has established companies under each college and given them tool kits. In addition, each college has allowed graduates to form companies. However, these are supervised by the National Technical Business Council (NTBC).

Madam Speaker, with regard to the opening of Kasiya Trades School, I do not want to pre-empt what is in the Budget. We are working day and night to ensure that that is done very quickly.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Speaker, firstly, I want to commend the hon. Minister for making a very important statement.

Madam Speaker, what criteria is used to select the 1,400 students to benefit from the bursary scheme? Is selection on a geographical or individual basis? I ask this question because Chongwe District has a lot of brilliant young boys and girls who have passed, but their parents are poor and cannot afford to pay their school fees. As a result, these children are unable to further their education. It has been difficult for any of them to access this …

Madam Deputy Speaker: You have asked your question.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, we work with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to assess the vulnerable and poor. As the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training, we do not have the capacity to assess who is poor and who is vulnerable. Each district has a welfare office to deal with such issues. Once a college receives formal confirmation from a welfare office that a vulnerable child has dropped out of school or has completed his or her Grade 12, that college will give priority, with regard to a bursary, to that child.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Speaker, the institutions named in the piloting of this programme are basically in urban areas. Is the hon. Minister aware that usually urban-trained personnel shun working in rural areas? What measures is the ministry putting in place to ensure that rural areas and rural dwellers benefit from this programme?

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, as I stated earlier, there are other institutions which have not been named for this pilot programme. However, this scheme will continue on a basis to basis, as the case may be. The colleges that will offer these priority courses will be supported by the ministry. Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce is the only college in Zambia that offers art. Courses such as art, are not offered in the rural colleges. However, this is not to say that the prioritised courses I mentioned earlier will not be taught elsewhere. Each deserving student will be given an opportunity and will be supported by the bursary.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, in-class training, such as what the hon. Minister has described, will fall short of satisfying our requirements if it is not complemented with industrial training. In the face of diminishing employment opportunities in all industries, especially the mining sector, can the hon. Minister inform this House how he expects to fully meet the requirements of the industry by ensuring that industrial training is associated with vocational training?

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, as I stated earlier, we would like the private sector to participate in the training of students who later come to work in the industries. It is not up to the Government alone to find attachments or on-job training for the students. I have written letters, as hon. Minister, to try and attach students that have graduated to various companies, including Copperbelt Energy Corporation (CEC).

Madam Speaker, I thank you.
  
Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, what measures is the ministry putting in place to increase accommodation at Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce? Right now, students from places as far as Chipata and Livingstone are being accepted to the college, but the college is unable to provide them with accommodation.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, if the hon. Member for Katombola has been to Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce recently, she will have noticed that five boreholes have been sunk and Uganda and other hostels have been rehabilitated while two more are being rehabilitated. Furthermore, there is some land which has been earmarked for expansion. Therefore, all these projects will be completed as and when funds are available.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, one of the reasons trades such as carpentry, bricklaying and plumbing …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order in the House! 
Mr Chanda: … are shunned is that major industries like the mining industry treat them as minor trades. What is the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training doing to ensure that trades are treated equally?

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, I do not agree with the hon. Member for Kankoyo because 90 per cent of the people working in the mines are skilled in these trades. Just outside this Chamber, the people working on the extension of Parliament buildings are skilled in these trades. I would, therefore, like to urge hon. Members in this House to ensure that as they employ people to build their homes, they get people with these skills.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Minister for the very good ministerial statement. In view of this good programme that they intend to implement, may I know what measures this Government intends to put in place to ensure that investors stop bringing artisans, bricklayers and the like into the country.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the Government, working hand-in-hand with the Ministry of Labour and Social Security, ensures that whoever comes into this country has the relevant qualifications. We have projects, for instance, in Garden Compound, where we fund people that make door frames and ensure that their products are marketable. The door frames that they make are good although the measurements are wrong. As a result, even a standard glass pane will not fit because they have not been taught the rudiments of technical drawing.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, bursaries are meant for the poor who cannot afford to pay for their education. However, of late, most people accessing bursaries are students whose parents are capable of paying for them. Some of these students are children of senior civil servants in the country. What is this Government doing to ensure that bursaries are given to the intended target group; the poor and vulnerable?

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational Training works hand-in-hand with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. That is the ministry that assesses the vulnerability and poverty levels of a child. All we do is offer training and vocational training.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what plans he has put in place to ensure that institutions registered under the Technical Education, Vocational and Entrepreneurship Training Authority (TEVETA) also benefit from the bursary scheme.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, as I stated in the ministerial statement, the bursary scheme is now for the twenty-three institutions that fall under my ministry. We give the institutions under TEVETA grants and, therefore, sponsor private colleges so that they assist the Government. There are over 270 private colleges which get funding from TEVETA. Therefore, in a way, we are assisting the private sector and the private sector must assist the Government by ensuring that it provides quality education.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, considering the importance of industrial attachment in craft and technical training programmes and also that some companies appear unwilling to have trainees attached, is his ministry willing to consider introducing incentives for private industries which provide opportunities for industrial attachment to the students from these institutions.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the ministry has gone out of its way to try and support students. The Government trains these students, but, in turn, the private sector must support the efforts of the Government. With regard to giving private companies incentives to employ our students, I want to bring it to the attention of hon. Members that Kabwe Trades has a company which is carrying out renovation works at the Evelyn Hone College of Applied Arts and Commerce. In addition, the Ministry of Education has awarded a contract to Kitwe Vocational Training College to make desks. Therefore, those are the areas that we can support, but we cannot give money to a private company to employ our students.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.,

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether the ministry will consider coming up with a specified number of students to benefit for each constituency so that even citizens from the remotest areas can benefit.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, I did not hear the question fully. Is the hon. Member referring to benefiting by getting a place or a bursary?

Mr Malama: The Bursary!

Mr Daka: The bursary is given when somebody has a letter from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. It is not the ministry that decides how many students the Eastern or Western provinces or Msanzala Constituency should bring. We are sure that in each district or province there is a college that has training programmes which will be given bursaries.

 I thank you, Madam, Speaker.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the monies which are going to be spent on these bursaries will be recovered from the students after they have graduated.

Mr Daka: Madam Speaker, the answer is no. The money is not going to be recovered.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

_____

QUESTIONS

CONSTRUCTION OF POLICE CELLS AND STATIONS COUNTRYWIDE

148. Ms Limata (Luampa) asked the Minister of Home Affairs whether the Government had plans to construct new police cells and stations country-wide.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Bonshe): Madam Speaker, the Government has plans to construct new police cells and stations countrywide.

There is an ongoing programme of construction of police stations, especially in the new districts such as Chibombo, Milenge and Chienge. Additionally, plans are underway to construct police cells in old districts such as Mufumbwe, Kaoma, Lukulu, Senanga, Siavonga and Serenje.

Madam Speaker, it is worth noting that the rehabilitation of police cells at Livingstone and Monze police stations is almost complete. The cell at Chelston Police Station has been rehabilitated and the Kanyama one is about to be completed. Further, as new housing complexes come up, police stations will be constructed. It should also be noted that police cells are an integral part of police stations.
The House may wish to know that there is also an on-going programme of rehabilitating police stations countrywide.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Ms Limata: Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister talked about Kaoma. When are the works going to start?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, in our answer, we indicated that Kaoma would benefit from the on-going programme of construction of police stations and we are committed to that ideal. Certainly, we are going to embark on that project when funds are available. This is a national programme and we will carry on with the construction works as and when funds are available.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Madam Speaker, the hardworking hon. Member of Parliament for Monze has provided a police post which has modern cells. When is the ministry considering providing the necessary requisites to ensure that this police post is opened?

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I would like to thank my hardworking hon. Colleague for what he has done in his constituency.

 Mr Mwiimbu laughed.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, he should liaise with me so that we can agree on a date to open this post. I would like to go and open it personally. Therefore, let us liaise.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Madam Speaker, Chelston has been mentioned as …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! The House will listen.

Mrs Phiri: Chelston has been mentioned as one of the police stations whose cells are being rehabilitated. I would like to find out exactly where this is being done because I was at Chelston Police Station yesterday and did not see any rehabilitation works there.

Laughter

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, I would like to confirm that we are rehabilitating the police cells at one of the police posts in Chelston and not at Chelston Police Station. The hon. Member of Parliament for Munali must take interest in this and check what is going on in her constituency.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B Banda, SC (Chasefu):  Madam Speaker, while commending the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for constructing a police post at Emusa in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency …

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! We need to listen. The consultations in the House are a bit too loud.
Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC: Madam Speaker, while commending the hon. Minister of Home Affairs for constructing a police post at Emusa in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency about five years ago, may I know when this police post will be opened because it is now being vandalised.

Dr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, it is not our intention for police posts and stations which have been constructed to remain unopened for too long. Honestly, I was not aware of that. Now, that I am aware, something is going to be done very seriously and very soon.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

ADMINSTRATION OF THE YOUTH DEVELOPMENT FUND

149. Ms Limata asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning whether the administration of the Youth Development Fund would revert to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms Kapwepwe): Madam Speaker, in 2007, following the enactment of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act No. 9 of 2006 and the establishment of the Citizens Economic Empowerment Fund (CEEF), Cabinet directed that all empowerment funds in the various ministries be pooled together under one umbrella, the CEEF. In this vein, all ministries managing various empowerment funds were requested to facilitate the process of pooling the funds. The CEEF is aimed at substantially increasing the participation of citizens at all levels of society in economic development through an integrated broad-based and multifaceted strategy thereby significantly decreasing income inequalities and accelerating socio-economic development.

The justification for pooling the empowerment funds is as follows:

(a) it is now policy that all empowerment funds should be under one umbrella, the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC);

(b) to ensure that there are sufficient resources to finance all empowerment activities at all times; and

(c) to ensure that control of the empowerment fund is centralised, objective and transparent.

In view of the aforesaid, the administration of the Youth Development Fund (YDF), like all other empowerment funds, will not revert to the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister has mentioned that it is policy that all empowerment funds should be under the CEEF. If that be the case, can I find out why two empowerment funds, the Fertiliser Support Programme Fund and the Food Security Fund, which are equally empowerment funds, are not under the CEEF? Can the hon. Minister explain whether or not she realises that the YDF was meant not only for economic empowerment, but also for skills, sport and cultural development? Since it has now been given to the CEEF, does the hon. Minister see any of our youths accessing that money for the other spheres of development?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, clearly, the two empowerment funds are separate because the Fertiliser Support Programme is a subsidy programme and not a lending programme. In any case, it is specialised and very big and, therefore, better serviced separately. Similarly, the Food Security Pack is quite specialised and wide-spread over the country and better serviced separately.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

DISCOVERY OF OIL AND GAS IN WESTERN AND NORTH-WESTERN PROVINCES
150. Mr Imenda (Lukulu East) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) what measures the Government had taken to ensure that the discovery of oil and gas in the following districts became a reality:

(i) Kabompo;

(ii) Kalabo;

(iii) Lukulu;

(iv) Mongu; and

(v) Zambezi;

(b) when the concessions would be availed to would-be investors; and

(c) whether basic steps had been taken, in conjunction with other ministries, to facilitate an investor-friendly environment.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, the Government has undertaken the following measures to unlock the oil and gas potential in Zambia:

(a) the areas have been divided into exploration blocks and these will be put out to tender for prospective oil exploration companies to bid. The successful bidders will be required to conduct detailed exploration for oil and gas; and

(b) the Government has revised the Petroleum (Exploration and Production) Act to provide the required enabling environment and comprehensively protect the interest of the Government.

The commercial presence of deposits of oil and gas in the mentioned districts will only be confirmed after drilling work has been undertaken by the companies that will eventually win tenders for oil and gas exploration in the demarcated blocks. The drilling programme will bring out the size of the reserves and quality of oil and/or gas which will determine the commercial viability.

Concessions will be opened up for bidding immediately after the reconstitution of the Petroleum Committee and the development of relevant statutory instruments on environmental standards and the trust fund. This is on-going and is expected to be finalised by the end of the second quarter of 2009.

Madam Speaker, some steps that are being undertaken include reorganising the petroleum information, study tours on the legal and fiscal regime obtaining in other countries, capacity building and promotion of the petroleum potential in Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Interruptions

Mr Imenda: Madam Speaker, is the current hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development aware that the then hon. Minister of Mines …

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! Can hon. Members, particularly those on my right, listen, please.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Bamalukula! Bakaboke!
Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Imenda: Is the current hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development aware that the then Minister of Mines, Hon. Mufaya Mumbuna, launched a programme on the discovery of oil and gas in 1981 in the same districts? Later, in this very House, the late President Mwanawasa relaunched the programme. When exactly will the final programme start?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Madam Speaker, in his response, the hon. Deputy Minister was quite categorical that after the reconstitution of the Petroleum Committee in the second quarter of this year, we will advertise to would-be investors in the petroleum sector.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, does the Government intend to liberalise the number of exploration companies in this country further? Currently, only a handful of companies have been carrying out explorations because the new economic world order, the famous global financial melt down, has resulted in the companies that were given licences to explore experiencing financial problems as evidenced by the laying off of workers in this country.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Member for Mazabuka for his concern for the petroleum sector. I would like to inform the House that petroleum exploration is a very specialised field which is very different from the exploration that goes on in the minerals sector. As of now, there are no companies actively involved in the exploration of oil and gas. That is why we have informed the House that we will be advertising and those that will be willing to undertake the exploration activities will come on board.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Madam Speaker, I wish to ask a slightly technical question. It has been known for many decades, in fact, almost a 100 years, that there are tar deposits in the sands in western Zambia and that these are not viable at present petroleum prices. Can the hon. Minister tell us whether the microbial assessments that have been done recently change the picture at all. Is there any evidence that there is actually oil and gas as opposed to the long known about tar or is this the kind of political day dream which comes round again and again ...

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Dr Scott: … like a flu?

Laughter
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! You do not ask about day dreams here, but about serious issues.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I have taken note of what the hon. Member for Lusaka Central has said. My only word to him is that he should continue dreaming about being Vice-President of this country.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, technology has evolved and the information we have now is that the potential for finding oil and gas in this country is very real.
I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development not care and worry about inviting foreign investment into this sector without specifically worrying about encouraging local investors, with the support of Government funding, to go into this exploration. This is because this is an area where Zambians must get involved and Zambia must spend money to further this programme.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for his concern about empowering the local people in this sector.

Madam Speaker, the bidding will be open to all and will not be restricted to foreign companies. I would, therefore, like to urge the hon. Member who may know some people who are able to form consortiums to tell them to go ahead because this is a green field which Zambians can venture into.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether he is aware that oil has always been a source of conflict in Africa. This conflict usually pertains to issues surrounding ownership. Is he not considering discriminating positively in favour of Zambians taking into account the Citizens Economic Empowerment Act which we passed which entails that indigenous Zambians participate in the exploitation of the natural resources of Zambia?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I would like to appeal to the hon. Member to share some notes with me so that I may be given more information on how he would like to see the system evolve.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, last year when the late President Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, came to this House and announced the discovery of gas and oil in the said areas, there was a lot of excitement. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister where that excitement has gone. How can you give us butter before you give us bread?

Laughter

Mr M. B.  Mwale: Madam Speaker, my advice to the hon. Member is that he should sometimes try to lick the butter because it is tasty.

Laughter

Mr M. B.  Mwale: Madam Speaker, the excitement has not gone. I would like to assure the House that in the second quarter of this year, the Government, under the able leadership of the President, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, will seriously undertake the exploration activities by inviting would-be investors.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, all the areas mentioned in the original question; Kalabo, Mongu, Lukulu and the areas in North-Western Province are in rural areas. My knowledge of rural areas is that every inch is occupied by people who own the land. What measures has the hon. Minister taken to ensure that the owners of that land participate in the process of demarcating these areas and arranging for exploration and later mining, decision making and exploration and ownership of the final product?

Madam Speaker, in addition, I would like the hon. Minister to inform the House why the workshops that have taken place in Siavonga on this subject have not involved the owners of the land where this oil is supposed to be.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, by hon. Members passing the Petroleum (Exploration and Production) Act, they have done it on behalf of the people in their constituencies. In this case, I will refer the hon. Member to the Act which was passed in this House. Consideration has been taken to set up trust funds for the communities wherever the exploitation of petroleum will be taking place.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.{mospagebreak}

THE PRIVATISATION OF ZANACO

151. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) how much was realised from the partial privatisation of the Zambia National Commercial Bank;

(b) what significant improvements in profits had been recorded so far compared to the period before privatisation of the bank; and

(c) how many jobs had been created and lost after the partial privatisation of the bank.

Ms Kapwepwe: Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the consideration received by the Government for the 49 per cent stake in Zambia National Commercial Bank Plc (ZANACO) that it sold to Rabobank Group was determined, inter alia, by the terms of the purchase agreement entered into between the Government, Rabobank and ZANACO.

Among the terms of the agreement, there are a number of clauses, particularly Clause 17 (Confidentiality) and Clause 18 (Announcements) which govern the conditions under which information (including the consideration) can be released or an announcement made concerning the subject matter of the agreement. In this regard, the Government has sought and obtained clearance from the other signatories to the agreement. I shall, therefore, issue a comprehensive statement on this matter in this House at a later stage.

Nonetheless, Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this House that ZANACO was duly listed on the Lusaka Stock Exchange (LUSE) on 27th November, 2008. In the initial public offering (IPO), the Government raised a further K119.4 billion by selling, through the Zambia Privatisation Trust Fund (ZPTF), a stake of 25.8 percent (or 253,968,752 shares at a price of K470 per share) to the public. ZANACO has also raised fresh capital during the IPO amounting to about K80 billion which was subscribed to by existing shareholders and the public. The IPO opened on 29th September, 2008, and closed on 23rd October, 2008. The amount raised during the IPO was as follows:

(a) offer for sale of existing shares sold by ZPTF valued at K119.4 billion;

(b) offer for subscription to the public of new shares issued by ZANACO valued at K20.65 billion; and

(c) offer for subscription to existing shareholders, including Rabobank, the Government and minorities valued at K59.23 billion.

The shareholding of the bank at the listing date was, therefore, as follows:

Shareholder          Shareholding

Rabobank             45.59 per cent

Government         25 per cent

Domestic Institutional
Investors              18.06 per cent

Domestic Retail 
Investors               6.06 per cent

Zambia National 
Farmer’s Union        3.41 per cent

Employees            1.31 per cent

Other investors      0.5 per cent.

Madam Speaker, the bank’s partial privatisation was effective on 3rd April, 2007. Below is a table to compare the key line items of the bank’s financials, as per prudential Bank of Zambia reporting for the full years of  2006, 2007 and 2008.

   2006  2007  2008
   K’ million K’ million K’ million

Revenues  240,453  286,521  373,184

Profit before tax  22,321  13,704  67,963

Profit after tax  15,819  12,119  50,099

The results indicate that there has been a solid improvement in the bank’s growth and profitability. From the figures, it is gratifying to see significant financial improvement of the bank in 2008, especially with regard to the growth in revenue of over 30 per cent and profit before and after tax which shows a growth of over 400 per cent. It should be noted that ZANACO has returned to a tax paying position after years of tax loss carry forwards.

The bank’s capital has improved significantly. The bank’s capital is now solid and the second highest of all banks in Zambia. The bank has also regained its position as the leading deposit taker. Deposits as at 31st December, 2008, stood at K2,303,320 million compared to K1,459,140 million and K1,770,221 million achieved in the years 2006 and 2007 respectively. This growth is underpinned by initiatives to improve the bank internally through improved operating processes, technology and human resources and externally, as made visible by the improved customer focus and sale of new products such as:

(a) growth of ATM network from thirty-five to sixty-three machines;

(b) opening of a new branch in Senanga, a town that had no bank before ZANACO opened its branch;

(c) opening of a new branch in Chirundu this month;

(d) refurbishing existing branches such as Kitwe, Mufulira and Mazabuka;

(e) replacement of ATM cards with Visa Electron cards that are acceptable worldwide;

(f) growth in personal loans book;

(g) cell phone airtime top up on ATM’s and is the first and only bank in the country to do so; and

(h) launch of Xapit, a fully functional cell phone banking platform allowing any customer to transact and make payment from his cell phone.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that 160 jobs have been lost after the partial privatisation. The table below summarises the bank staff turnover from April, 2007 to 31st December, 2008. The staff reduction took place within existing labour legislation and conditions of service, as well as through a voluntary separation scheme. On the other hand, the bank has also engaged sixty new staff in the same period with a view to further upgrading its human capital.

Madam Speaker, the employee numbers as at 3rd April, 2007, were 1,099. There have been 160 separations.

Break Down of Separations

Death        19

Discharge       1

Dismissal       36

Resignation       29

End of contract      2

Medical Discharge      1

Normal Retirement      19

Voluntary Severance Scheme     53

Total       160

Engagements       60

The number of employees as at 31st December, 2008, was 999.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, arising from the hon. Minister’s answer that the contract entered into had a confidentiality clause and she was only able to give us this answer after getting the permission of the other parties to the agreement, I would like to find out whether it is the policy of this Government to enter into confidentiality clauses where public institutions are involved when good governance demands transparency in all dealings of the Government. Can they give us an assurance that they will not enter into any more confidentiality clauses in future agreements?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the information that is being requested for, as indicated in the answer, will be provided because we have sought agreement with the other parties that this information be provided. As the answer said, a comprehensive statement will be issued on this in the House by my ministry.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, after ZANACO was sold to Rabobank, we expected more branches to be opened. Can the hon. Minister shed more light on why more branches have not been opened, especially in rural areas?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I think the answer said a branch has been opened in Senanga where no bank existed before. Another branch is due to be opened in Chirundu soon. Let me also add that at the time the action to privatise ZANACO was taken, a lot of fears were expressed about the possibility of branch closures. However, none has been closed so far.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Madam Speaker, the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning gave an elaborate answer on the company’s performance after partial privatisation. However, I would like to find out what use the money realised from the partial privatisation was put to and what benefits the Zambian people are realising from it.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the money is in the ZPTF. As far as the advantages are concerned, there are several. The most critical one is that the bank is now healthier, stronger and even more reliable. You will recall that just before privatisation, there were fears about the possibility of the bank closing. Those have now been thwarted. Secondly, the bank is able to provide more services than before. For instance, in the response it was mentioned that the loan book has increased and products such as ATM cards improved while new products like mobile banking have been introduced. Thirdly, given the possibility of the bank closing, the employees were threatened with job losses. Those employees are now very happy because their jobs are solid.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Speaker, since we have been assured that a statement on the partial privatisation of ZANACO will be made at an appropriate time, could the hon. Minister take advantage of that to inform us about other companies that have undertaken privatisation since 1993 until last year. Could he also confirm that, in fact, the money from the privatisation of these companies, which amounts to billions of Kwacha, has been transferred to the Consolidated Fund.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, in order to avoid misleading the House, I would request the hon. Member to submit that question so that we can research on it and provide a factual answer.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam Speaker, a recent report on capital flight at an international conference showed that Zambia is third on the list of countries with the most banking assets owned by foreigners. I think only Swaziland and Botswana were worse than us. In view of the global economic crisis, which was caused by the financial sector, what measures is the hon. Minister taking to ensure that the parent banks of the foreign banks operating in Zambia, which need liquidity in their own countries, do not suck the liquidity which is generated by Zambians in their banks here?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, there is nothing wrong with a banking sector having assets owned by foreigners. In fact, in countries such as the United Kingdom (UK), Switzerland and Dubai, the banking sector is one of the key employers and this helps grow their economies.

Madam Speaker, regarding the possibility of parent banks sucking money out of this country, the Central Bank, which is the regulatory authority, is monitoring the situation. Its supervisory skills have improved substantially since the 1990s. Therefore, we are quite confident that this matter is being looked at very seriously and I think that possibility is quite slim for now.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mwiimbu: Madam Speaker, the law of this country pertaining to banking service provision does not allow a single shareholder to own more than 25 per cent of the total shares of a bank. Why has this Government decided to continue violating the laws of the land by allowing certain individuals and organisations to hold more than 25 per cent of the shares of banks in this country? In particular, I have in mind Rabobank.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member is misrepresenting the law. The law states that an individual cannot hold more than 25 per cent of the capital of a bank. The reason is that in the recent past, in the 1980s and 1990s, it was discovered that when individuals owned more than 25 per cent, the possibility of abuse was enhanced. However, the law states that an incorporated company listed on the stock exchange is exempt from that provision. The reason for this is that such a company is actually owned by a wider array of interests.

Mr Mulyata: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: That being the case, the hon. Member is misrepresenting what the law states.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

SUPPLY OF DESKS AND CONSTRUCTION OF VIPS IN LUKULU EAST

152. Mr Imenda asked the Minister of Education:

(a) when desks would be supplied to schools in Lukulu District; and

(b) when Ventilated Improved Pit Latrines (VIPs) would be constructed at schools in Lukulu East Parliamentary Constituency and elsewhere in the district.

Interruptions

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Madam Speaker, Lukulu District was allocated a total of 265 double seater desks in 2008. This year, the district will receive 909 double seater desks in the first quarter and more will be procured during the course of the year.

Madam, the ministry is aware that there are some schools where classrooms have been constructed without VIP toilets. In the 2009 budget, the ministry has budgeted for the construction of 350 VIP latrines countrywide and some of these have been allocated to schools in Lukulu District.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Imenda: Madam Speaker, I am aware that the desk to pupil ratio has been bad in the past. Can the hon. Minister give me an idea of the current child to desk ratio countrywide.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon. Member for Lukulu East knows very well that the information he is asking for is strenuous to arrive at and cannot be given in a minute. We need time to carry out that research countrywide.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Some Hon. Opposition Members stood up to ask supplementary questions.

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Clerk will now read the Order of the day.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Madam Deputy Speaker: The question refers to Lukulu East and not Mpika.

Laughter

________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

VOTE 08 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – K121,757,472,287).

(Consideration resumed)

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairman, last Friday, I was concluding my debate on the vote for Cabinet Office. As I conclude, let me just emphasise one point.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is a consistent noise coming from my left. Why can we not pay attention to the person speaking? Let us observe order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, Madam.

Mrs Masebo: Cabinet Office is a very important institution in the whole Government system. It is very important that some of the issues being raised by hon. Members on the work of Cabinet are taken into serious consideration by the Executive. One such function is that of analysing policies from various ministries. I note that, in the past, some policies have been in conflict with policies from other sector ministries. You will find that when legislation comes before Parliament, some of the laws are in conflict. Therefore, it is important that the Police Analysis Department of Cabinet Office looks at these policies critically so that there is harmonisation among the sector ministries.

Lastly, Cabinet Office must ensure that the people being employed in the Civil Service are professionals. In a way, it is demoralising for people who are well qualified to be supervised by people that are not qualified enough. It is the responsibility of the Secretary to the Cabinet to advise the Government well on this matter so that professionals are employed in all the ministries. Otherwise, we shall continue having all the difficulties we have, especially …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am having problems listening to the hon. Member on the Floor.
Hon. Government Members: Lubinda!

The Deputy Chairperson: I cannot believe what you are doing. I have to listen to what she is debating and all of you have to listen as well, but the problem is that you are consulting very loudly. I have no problem with your consulting quietly without disturbing the person debating.

You may continue, Madam.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, it is important that Cabinet Office helps ensure that the people employed in the Public Service have the requisite qualifications. If we do not do that, morale will go down in the Civil Service. This is why you find many people not doing their work in the Civil Service. In cases where professionals are supervised by illiterates or people that have not been to school, they spend most of their time doing their private business because they are put off. I think if we are to have a professional cadre in the Public Service, Cabinet Office has a very big role to play to ensure that only people that are qualified are employed in the various ministries. That is why even the development of policies …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Your time is up, Madam!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to, first of all, congratulate His Honour the Vice-President and learned Minister of Justice on his elevation to his current position.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, I have always acknowledged the political and managerial competence of His Honour the Vice-President. My advice to him, from the onset, is that he should use that political and managerial competence to reorganise the Public Service, with emphasis on the Civil Service, in order to make the institution more responsive to the aspirations of the Zambians. The time has come for Cabinet Office to be seen to be efficient. The time has come for the Civil Service to implement the policies of the Government of the day within the shortest possible time.

Comparatively speaking, the Civil Service of yesterday and the Civil Service of today are at par in terms of performance. In the past when some of us were very young, you would go to an office and demand for a file for a political retiree or civil servant who had retired. That information would be made available to you within the shortest possible time.

Nowadays, for one to get a file from a civil servant’s office, one has to knock on the same door for several days, months or even a year. I have to say openly, His Honour the Vice-President, that you have to reorganise the Civil Service. If you miss this opportunity, I can assure you that however brilliant your policies or vision are as the Government of the day, you are not going to achieve the intended results. You should also put emphasis on finances …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, address the Chair. When you say, “you, you, you,” they think that you are not addressing the Chair. Can you use the term, ‘He’.

You may continue.

Mr Kasongo: If the Civil Service is not reorganised to make it more responsive to the aspirations of the people, even if the vision and policies of the Government of the day are so articulate …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can I ask Hon. Ntundu and Hon. Muyanda to go and consult outside for a few minutes and then come back.

Mr Ntundu and Mr Muyanda left the Assembly Chamber.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Lubinda!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member can continue.

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, kindly attend to this timely advice as quickly as possible. With regard to Cabinet Office and the performance of the Civil Service, with emphasis on public finance, the question of accountability is no longer a norm in the Public Service. You have to address this issue, through the Chair, His Honour the Vice-President.

Mr Chairperson, let me give you a practical example relating to my constituency. The Ministry of Health produced the 2008 Operational Plan. In that plan, a number of projects were supposed to be implemented by the Ministry of Health. I would like to inform you, through the Chair, your Honour, that out of the five projects which were funded by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, only two have been attended to. No explanation has been given by the leadership in the Ministry of Health on what happened to the money that was released to the ministry by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. If you go to the province, they will tell you that the funds were not sufficient to implement the projects, and yet that initiative came from the district.

Sir, from the beginning, the provincial leadership approved the budget which was submitted to the national Treasury for funding purposes. After the projects were funded, how can a manager with a sound mind claim that the funds were not sufficient to attend to the projects when the initiative came from the district and was accepted by the province and subsequently sent to the Treasury for funding purposes? After the funds have been released, they are saying that they were not sufficient. You have to address all these issues, your Honour. I can give you the facts. I would like you to pay maximum attention to what some civil servants are doing because we are losing a lot of money.

Sir, in 2006, the roof of a rural health centre was blown off. The district leadership prepared a budget of K50 million for its repair. I visited the rural health centre and confirmed that the money required to repair the roof was only K50 million. When a representation was made to the headquarters, they claimed that the amount of money required to repair the rural health centre was K250 million. I contested that and said I was speaking with authority. I told them that the rural health centre was in my constituency and I was absolutely convinced that only K50 million was required to restore its roof. It was a battle and I lost. The headquarters released K250 million. Therefore, you can see how we are losing a lot of money. How many rural health centres could have been constructed using that money?

Hon. Opposition Member: Two.

Mr Kasongo: You have to address all these issues, your Honour. Otherwise, you will end up clocking five years without making any positive impact at constituency level because of what is happening on the ground.

I am giving you these practical examples so that you know that there is something wrong with the current crop of leadership in the Civil Service. When Hon. Dr Chituwo was minister, the Ministry of Health released money for the construction of Samfya District Hospital Phase I. In Phase II, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning released sufficient funds so that the construction of the hospital could continue. What happened? Down the line, the top managers at the Ministry of Health wanted to divert the funds. When I got wind of it, I wrote a strong letter to the then Minister, Hon. Masebo. I am grateful that she did her part although she is not in the House. I said that the money was intended to complete the construction of Samfya District Hospital and should not be diverted. Hon. Masebo invited me to her office to address the issue. Luckily, I must confess, I gave a copy of that letter to the late President, May His Soul Rest in Peace. That is how that issue was resolved. When I went to attend the meeting, I was informed by the top managers that they would continue constructing Samfya District Hospital.

These practical examples I have given you, your Honour, indicate the fact that some of our top managers are not assisting the communities and you in leadership. Therefore, you have to take action as quickly as possible.
Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I must confess that there are exceptions with regard to the performance of civil servants. Some of them are very practical. I have always singled out the Ministry of Education. The top manager in this ministry, Mrs Lillian Kapulu, is a high performer. All of those who are aware of what is happening …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … in their constituencies will say, “Hats off,” to that lady.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Mr Chairperson, if I had the power to appoint managers, I would make her the first female Secretary to the Cabinet. She is very practical …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … and effective. Those are the managers that we are looking for. Even when I tour my constituency, I find her there physically inspecting projects. If she is not there, you will find managers from her office touring the constituency and physically inspecting projects. I think these are the managers that we would like to see in the ministries. If we have such people in the ministry, they can assist you a lot. We should not have top managers who are just busy attending workshop after workshop.

Mr Chairperson, this brings me to the question of workshops. You must cut down on workshops. There are times you are frustrated because you go to an office to look for information about a retiree in a constituency, only to learn that the officer responsible is attending a workshop. If you go to another office, you find the office is also empty. You will be told again that the officer is attending a workshop. There is nothing you can achieve by allowing the top managers to attend meetings and workshops everyday. For what purpose? How much time do they commit to clearing the files they receive on their desks everyday? These are important issues which need to be attended to. If you go to most offices, you will find that they are always vacant. Who is there to attend to you? It is the office orderly. If you ask the office orderly where his boss is, he will tell you that he is attending a workshop. Sometimes meetings take place the whole day. The Government has to address this issue. I am not saying that they should not attend meetings. However, it is too much of civil servants attending meetings. I used to be a very practical civil servant. You can find out from the ministers that I served such as Hon. Mabenga and Hon. Dr Machungwa.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: I urge His Honour the Vice-President to raise the profile of the Civil Service. As you sit here as ministers, you are not receiving the kind of respect you are supposed to from the civil servants. Each time funds were released to my ministry through the Vice-President, I would inform the hon. Minister how much money we had received. I am not boasting. After the funds had been spent, I would make sure that I submitted the expenditure returns to him so that he knew we had spent the money. It is important to ask for expenditure returns. You have to find out how much money has been committed to your respective ministries. That is good management.

Sir, I would like to appeal to his Honour the Vice-President to strengthen Cabinet Office and make sure that the Civil Service begins ticking. We have heard of promotions being done posthumously, people retiring without being confirmed and civil servants working beyond the stipulated period simply because someone has not informed them officially that they are no longer active civil servants. These are issues that must be addressed and the onus is on you, His Honour the Vice-President. However, I rate you highly and would like you to use your competence to reorganise the Civil Service.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. A lot of issues have been raised and many of them quite constructive. We have taken note of the issues raised.

There was a lot of debate on the Gender in Development Department (GIDD). This is the department responsible for gender matters. There were suggestions by Hon. Musokotwane and others who debated that it must be turned into a ministry. I recall that when a Minister was appointed to this department sometime back, there was a lot of opposition from women non-governmental organisations (NGOs) …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … that there was no need for a ministry or even a department for gender. However, the Government has insisted on the need for a department to look into gender matters. It is a Government vision. There are suggestions that the Government creates a Ministry for Gender. However, this suggestion requires consultation among parliamentarians, civil society organisations, women’s groups and the Government. We shall consult on the possibility of creating a ministry for women and see how we should proceed. The hon. Minister for Gender has received representations on the creation of a Ministry for Gender which will be referred to Cabinet for a decision.

Mr Chairperson, there are some provisions in the GIDD budget which may not appear independently in the national Budget. This is because gender issues have been mainstreamed in the ministries. Provisions which benefit women have been made in the various ministerial budgets. It is not true that we have neglected to provide for some of the issues.

Mr Chairperson, the allocation for the construction of houses for the three former Presidents does not appear under Cabinet Office. It appears under the Ministry of Works and Supply. Construction of houses for the three former Presidents has been budgeted for on page 639.

Mr Chairperson, there was debate on the leakage of Government information in the Public Service. There were suggestions that whistle blowers should be protected. However, I submit that under no circumstances are leakages of Government information justifiable. In fact, leakage of Government information that is covered under the State Security Act amounts to a very serious offence.

It is also a fact that, in our democratic dispensation, people leak information for monetary gain. The information is also leaked selectively in order to achieve certain agendas or purposes. That kind of leakage of information can bring problems for this country because the informers do not leak the whole picture, but extract what they want the public to know. Even if there is an explanation to the information leaked, they would rather suppress it ...

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and just leak the information that will help them achieve their agenda.

Mr Sichilima: Guy Scott!

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  That type of whistle blower will not receive any protection.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  Mr Chairperson, we must be careful with some of the laws on whistle blowers, which we suggest to import into this country, as they may not be appropriate for our circumstances.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We may not have reached a level of responsibility …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
Chair]

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:

(Inaudible)

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 08/07 – (Cabinet Office – Office of the President – Policy Analysis and Co-ordination Department – K2,099,045,832).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Management of Cabinet Documents – K257,266,709. Can His Honour the Vice-President explain why K257,266,709 has been provided. This amount is too much because nothing was allocated to this activity last year.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, these funds are intended for training. This House has been debating about capacity building and this is part of it.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K2,361,549,729).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s Estimates of Expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission.

Sir, the Teaching Service Commission was established under the Service Commissions Act Cap. 259 of the Laws of Zambia. Sections 13 (b) and 21 of the Act empower the Commission to make, with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia, regulations regarding its operational procedures and confers powers or impose duties on any other authority of the Government for the purposes of discharging its functions.

Mr Chairperson, the functions of the commission are prescribed under Section 122 of the Service Commissions Act as follows:

(a) to make appointments to any office in the Teaching Service;

(b) to make appointments on probation, confirmations in appointments, retirements and transfers;

(c) to exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in the established teaching service posts and remove any person from such office; and

(d) to conduct professional appraisals for teachers as well as sensitise them on their rights and responsibilities.

Sir, the commission had, during the year 2008, performed the various functions mentioned above on a budget of K2,191,889,209. The allocation enabled the commission to carry out its operations. The commission resolved a number of cases and will continue to do so even this year, 2009.

Mr Chairperson, I now present this year’s Budget Estimates for the Teaching Service Commission amounting to K2,361,549,729.

Sir, I would like to urge this august House to adopt this budget as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the appropriation to the Teaching Service Commission and I would like to thank and commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for increasing the budget for this commission.

Sir, there are a number of issues that I want to bring to the attention of the Government even as I support the appropriation. The disposal of disciplinary cases by the Teaching Service Commission takes too long nowadays. According to the terms and conditions of service, the disposal of cases must be done within the time limit, but this is not the case nowadays. Justice delayed is justice denied. That demotivates the teaching fraternity because they are not comfortable because they feel that they may be expelled or disciplined in any other manner. In order to restore confidence in the teachers, it is very important that the Teaching Service Commission brings to life the culture that was there in the past when cases of a disciplinary nature were disposed of within a given time. This is very important, especially to me who is a teacher by profession and who served in the Teaching Service for thirty years.

Mr Chairperson, the other aspect that I would like the Teaching Service Commission to consider seriously is that of promotions. According to the terms and conditions of service, a teacher who has been appointed with a view to promotion, is allowed to act only for six months. After six months, the recommending authority is supposed to establish the suitability, effectives or ineffectiveness of that teacher with a view to recommending their promotion or reversion to their substantive position. A number of teachers have complained to me as hon. Member of Parliament, especially since I once worked in the union, that they do not know why the Teaching Service takes so long to recommend and appoint people appropriately. I think six months is long enough. It is very costly for the Government to pay a teacher who has acted for more than six years huge sums of money for the period he or she acted once that teacher is reverted to their old position. I think the Teaching Service Commission should look into this matter. 

Sir, the other issue I would like to address is that of appointments taking into consideration qualifications and length of service. It has been heard and it is common now that a person can graduate from one of the colleges today with a diploma or degree and be appointed to superintend over a large school without having acquired the necessary experience to administer an institution. Such appointments by the Teaching Service Commission have frustrated a number of cadres in the teaching profession. As a result, some of them feel that they are being segregated and, therefore, cannot perform to expectations. Sometimes, people allege that corruption is being employed and that is why certain people are recommended. The Teaching Service Commission must promote people on merit, taking into consideration the experience and effectiveness of an individual.

Mr Chairperson, there is also the issue of staff motivation and I think people who have served in the teaching profession before will agree with me on this. Previously, teachers were remunerated and motivated not only by getting what unions had negotiated. It was not like that. In the Teaching Service, every teacher was remunerated annually. They were given an annual increment based on the report from the inspectors which was submitted to the Teaching Service Commission. This warranted the Teaching Service Commission to recommend to the Ministry of Education how much money must be given to for example, Hon. Chimbaka, as an annual increment for having worked effectively and efficiently in a certain year. If such an increment could be resuscitated by the Teaching Service Commission, it would go a long way in motivating staff who may not have had an opportunity to be appointed to any position in the hierarchy to work hard because they shall benefit in terms of remuneration.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the Teachers Accreditation Board. I have always lamented that the Ministry of Education and the Teaching Service Commission have taken long to put the Teachers Accreditation Board in place. This has been written about in, ‘Educating the Future’ ever since the document was launched by Barbara Chilangwa who was the Permanent Secretary then. The beauty of turning teaching into a profession is that disgruntled teachers who may have joined the noble profession as a result of not having the opportunity to go to careers of their choice would be regulated. The teaching profession has its own cultures, ethics and requires nobility.

Sir, the disciplinary action being taken by the Teaching Service Commission today resulting from the abuse of girls and drunkenness is due to the fact that some teachers serving in the Teaching Service are not born teachers. They snuck in there just to earn money and not to teach. In this regard, when the Teaching Service Accreditation Board is formed, it would deregister such teachers. Currently, when these teachers are disciplined by the Teaching Service Commission, they are taken on by private schools and continue to act to the contrary instead of teaching and being role models to the public, society and the children they teach. They behave to the contrary and this results in our children emulating behaviour which is not of Zambian origin. The erosion of our values by the young generation results from the role models, the teachers, behaving to the contrary in private and Government institutions.

Sir, in this vein, I want to assure the Teaching Service Commission that the duplicity that they fear may arise will not arise. The role of the Teaching Service Commission is quite distinct from the one the Teachers Accreditation Board would play if and when it is put in place. I strongly feel that we must not procrastinate on that and a symposium could be held by the Teaching Service Commission to get more views then have them approved before this House.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to discuss the regulation of the teachers’ dress code. I appreciate the fact that dynamism in fashion is acceptable by all standards, but I am not convinced that the Zambian culture has eroded. The Indians have their culture which they maintain even when they come to Zambia. It is inculcated and entrenched in their children. In Zambia, the cultural erosion is so bad that we see our boys and girls walk naked on the streets of Lusaka and Mansa, all in the name of human rights.  No!

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: It cannot be like that. Some of the temptations that our male and female teachers face are as a result of the parading and exhibition of parts of the anatomy that are not supposed to be paraded. Some of our girls are grown up. In our language, we call some of those abana. They are our children and for a teacher who is smartly dressed everyday, it is very tempting to look at a girl in a very short thing which looks like a dress but has its own name. We would like standard uniforms to be appreciated.

Sir, besides, I would like the Teaching Service Commission to consider banning male and female staff from wearing some T shirts. For example, when I was an effective teacher, I never dared wear a T shirt written, ‘Satanic Verses’. What would I portray to my children? Nowadays, you will find a teacher wearing a T shirt written, ‘I love you’. Who do you love?

Laughter

Mr Chimbaka: What do the boys say? Some of the boys are big and mature sexually. What would they say when they see that? You are simply trying to attract them. Please, let the Teaching Service Commission go to the archives and look for the teaching ethics. We need the dress code that existed then and gave a teacher a name. Even in the villages, people used to say, “Yes, there goes a teacher,” or “Yes, here comes the madam.” A teacher is not only a teacher for the children, but a teacher for all. I want to emphasise that if we are to develop, we have to accredit to the teachers the nobility that they deserve and cultural values must be inculcated in our children. 

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to debate on this vote. I will be very brief.

Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service is the single largest group of the Public Service. The Teaching Service Commission services about 70,000 teachers in all corners of this country, including the remotest parts.

Mr Chairperson, I grudgingly support the vote because the allocation is too small. For the commission to be effective, they need a lot of funds. I have already stated that they service 70,000 teachers. However, they cannot afford to go to each province every year because they do not have enough funds.

Mr Chairperson, furthermore, I believe that seven commissioners are not enough for the commission. By the way, because the chairperson of the Teaching Service Commission is male, the vice-chairperson should be female.

Hon. MMD Member: Why?

Mrs Musokotwane: There is no reason the chairperson and vice-chairperson are both male. There are three capable ladies who are members of the commission. One of them can even be chairperson. Therefore, the appointing authority should bear this in mind next time. In the next appointment, we do not want a situation where women are only members of the commission. We want them to lead either as chairperson or vice-chairperson.

Interruptions

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, 70,000 is a very big number to service. The Ministry of Education employs 5,000 teachers every year. This means that by the end of this year, the commission will service 75,000 teachers. Therefore, even the number of commissioners is not enough. Last year alone, they looked at more than 11,000 cases. This was all they could look at. There are a lot more cases that they could have looked at, but because they are few, they cannot spread out. Therefore, it is either the number of commissioners is increased or the Teaching Service Commission is decentralised so that cases are looked at as quickly as possible. We should be able to have rapid results if two or three members of the commission can rush at any given time when there is an emergency.

As Hon. Chimbaka said earlier, teachers’ cases take years to resolve. As a result, the teachers lose morale because they do not know how their cases are going. They get tired of waiting for the commission. Some people in provinces are told that because the commission is moving to Western, for example, the files for Southern Province should also be taken to Western Province. This is not fair. We are over-working the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, when the commission is on tour, they are asked a lot of questions. Some of these questions are administrative. As a result, the members of the commission cannot give the answers immediately. Is it not possible for officers in the Permanent Secretary’s office in the Ministry of Education to accompany the commissioners when they are on tour so that questions that deal with administrative issues are answered there and then? Instead of the commission referring them to the ministry and sending the answers back to the teachers, it would be faster if one of the people from the Permanent Secretary’s office accompanied the commission when it is on tour.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to this very important vote.

Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission is an important body which works hand-in-hand with the Ministry of Education. The commission encounters a lot of problems in its operations, but last year despite this, the commission ensured that it did a commendable job.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, last year, the commission only visited thirty-three districts in five provinces because of limited funds. They could have visited all the provinces if funds had been available. Within their operations, they managed to look at 30,158 cases. With regard to their operations, three quarters of their work was done in urban areas. They failed to touch rural areas. There is need for more funds to be allocated so that these people also see the teachers in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, these people work under very difficult conditions. They only have one vehicle which they borrowed from the Ministry of Education. There is need to give them enough transport to enable them travel countrywide when they want to carry out their operations.

Mr V. Mwale: Bapaseni motoka!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, the other issue which I would like to bring to your attention concerns housing allowance for teachers. Housing allowance for teachers is pathetic. There is need to look at this. There is equally need to consider the housing allowance for the seven commissioners. Each one of them gets K350,000 as housing allowance. Where in Lusaka can one rent a house for K350,000? These are some of the problems that these people face.

Mr Chairperson, I stand here to welcome the establishment of the Teaching Service Council, which will bring sanity in the Ministry of Education. Firstly, it will enable teachers go for further studies. At the same time, it will assist in dealing with unruly teachers by meting out disciplinary action on them immediately they commit an offence.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor.

From the outset, I would like to say that I am in total support of the vote on the Floor. While I stand to support the vote under review, I should state that the role that the Teaching Service Commission plays is paramount and, therefore, requires adequate funding.

Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission is charged with the responsibility of confirming, disciplining, promoting and retiring teachers. This alone, demonstrates that the commission has a mammoth task. What perplexes me is that, year in and year out, starting from 2006, I have not seen a reasonable increase in the allocation of funds to the commission. This makes the Teaching Service Commission fail to perform its duties to the expectations of the Zambian community. It is not that the commission is not effective. Its operations are being hampered by inadequate funding. What do we need to do then? We have to find a solution. To the best of my knowledge, every problem has a solution. We should give the commission more money.

Mr Chairperson, I was a teacher for thirteen years and during that period, I only saw the Teaching Service Commission come as far as Chilubi once.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Chisala:  That was not due to their desire, but due to the Government’s failure to allocate them enough funds.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear

Mr Chisala: Mr Chairperson, what do we need to do? The time has come for us to awake from our deep slumber and allocate more funds to the commission. That way, things will start moving. From the look of things, we have forgotten the importance of this commission.

 Mr Chairperson, if the Teaching Service Commission could be funded adequately, most of the problems of indiscipline in the Teaching Service would not be there. However, if we continue with this inadequate funding, we shall continue facing retrogression in the system.

 Mr Chairperson, of late, the Teaching Service Commission has been facing a lot of challenges touching the rural districts. This has resulted in the provincial education officers (PEOs) demanding donations from school managers to feed the commissioners when they visit the provinces because of inadequate funding. Teachers, including school managers, are not getting enough money from the ministry in terms of grants. What happens at the end of the day is that whenever the commission visits a particular province, the PEO writes to each school manager to make contributions. We are not supposed to work like that. We should find remedies to this problem. If we continue with this trend, things will not move to the expectations of the Zambian people. The time has come for us to change the way the commission is run. Once that is done, people will see that we are serious.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I would like to stand here in support of this vote.

Sir, I would like to raise some issues which I did not hear His Honour the Vice-President raise in his preliminary submission when he rose on this vote.

Mr Chairperson, although the amount provided is in excess of K2.3 billion, His Honour the Vice-President has not been able to inform us why the Teaching Service Commission appears to have been housed by someone in 2008. This year, an allocation has been provided for fleet management and rentals. Under Programme 6 – Utilities, they have provided for telephones, internet, postal services, electricity and water. To me, this suggests that they have relocated to a new site and it appears that they will be operating on their own. Could His Honour the Vice-President, please, explain to us, as he winds up debate, if they are now going to be housed separately.

Sir, the other point which I want to raise is that the increase in the allocation to this vote is so small. For example, I wonder how you can provide K20 million for seven commissioners to access advances and loans when they have problems. I think there is a problem with our budgeting profile. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning needs to take note of this. We should not be arithmetic, but practical in our budgeting. When you run an independent service commission and provide K20 million for loans, you are not being serious. We should be more practical in the provisions we make.

For example, this year, we have talked about a chunk of money being allocated to the Ministry of Education. How can the Ministry of Education perform better with a big chunk if the Teaching Service Commission has not been provided the means to deal with the increased expenditure and activities within the Ministry of Education? We should not be arithmetic in the way we do things. Instead, we should be practical. Why provide so much money to the Ministry of Education and deny the Teaching Service Commission? Only when you tighten the management, information system, assessment and ability to monitor teachers, will you improve the Ministry of Education. The hon. Minister and his ministry will need this information. Therefore, we should provide the Teaching Service Commission with more funds to enable the ministry operate effectively.

Sir, if you do not provide the commission with sufficient money, you are shifting power to the ministry. In so-doing, you are underplaying the commission. The commission should be allowed to play its role. This has to do with checks and balances. You cannot cook your own cake and eat it. Therefore, if you give more money to the ministry so that it performs better, but do not have checks and balances, through this commission, then you are spoiling the broth.

Mr Chairperson, that is my submission. We should be careful and I wish there was a way to increase this amount.

 I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I have taken note of various submissions and debates from the hon. Members. Most of them have talked about lack of funds.

Mr Chairperson, I want to make it very clear that this year, we have an austerity budget and almost all the institutions have been affected. Last year, we went through a very difficult period and there are certain factors we have taken into account in budgeting. Some of them are that we will experience reduced revenue this time for reasons which are well known to Hon. Hachipuka and the others who have debated.

Sir, I know that it is not realistic to budget K20 million for loans, but the money available dictates that we do this across the board. This affects all institutions. If you went through the budget, you would find that this is so.

Sir, as regards whether the commission has relocated, the information I have is that they are now in the Government complex. For your benefit, that is the position. Should the situation improve, there is room for supplementary budgeting if it can be justified. At the moment, this is the best we can do for all the institutions. All the institutions are important. There is no institution which is more important than the other.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 10 – (Police and Prisons Service Commission – K2,367,169,518).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Police and Prisons Service Commission.

Hon. Members of the House may wish to know that the Police and Prisons Service Commission is established under Section 7(C) of the Service Commissions Act No. 24 of 1991.

Some of the functions of the Police and Prisons Service Commission are as follows:

(a) to carry out functions directed to it by His Excellency the President;

(b) to appoint persons to hold or act in the office of the Zambia Police Service and Prisons Service;

(c) to admit officers to permanent and pensionable establishment in the Zambia Police Service and Prisons Service;

(d) to promote officers to higher ranks in the Police and Prisons Service;

(e) to establish disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in such offices and to remove any persons from exercising the functions of their offices in the Zambia Police Service and Prisons Service;

(f) to review appeals submitted by officers against punishments imposed on them departmentally or by the responsible officer as provided for under the Police and Prisons Service Commission Regulation No. 42;

(g) to decide on the requirement and normalise resignations of officers in the Zambia Police and Prisons services;

(h) to consider the granting and distribution of pension benefits accruing to deceased estates;

(i) to direct on the compensation of officers who die or get injured in accidents arising out of or in the course of duty; and

(j) to consider the transfer of officers arising out of the exigencies of the service.

Mr Chairperson, during the year 2008, the commission received K2,439,120,479 and managed to discharge its mandate within its resource envelope.

During the year, the commission …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. D. Mwila, can you, please, go back to your seat.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You seem to be disturbing the debate.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, His Honour the Vice-President.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: During the year, the commission did not just process confirmations in appointments, retirements, discipline and reinstatements, but also were concerned about the environment and conditions under which police and prisons officers were serving. Whilst at base, the Police and Prisons Service Commission continued to process cases in respect of the two sister institutions namely, Zambia Police Service and the Prisons Service.

This year’s budget is K2,367,169,518.

I urge this august House to approve this budget.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members for their overwhelming supporting.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 10/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07 – (Office of the Auditor-General − K40,726,743,645).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the Auditor-General’s budget.

The Auditor-General, whose office is a public one, is charged with the responsibility of promoting good governance, accountability and transparency in the utilisation of public resources. It is the duty of the Auditor-General to audit and give an assurance that all the revenues are collected and brought to account and that the moneys expended have been applied for the purposes for which they were appropriated and that the expenditure conforms to the authority that governs it.

Sir, the principal functions and responsibilities of the Auditor-General are set out in Article 21 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Public Finance Act No. 15 of 2004 and the Public Audit Act Cap. 378 of the Laws of Zambia. These statutes provide that the Auditor-General shall audit public accounts, accounts of statutory corporations and private institutions that receive Government subventions, including donor funded projects. In this respect, the Auditor-General conducts external audits on Government and other public institutions and reports to Parliament on how public resources have been utilised.

Mr Chairperson, in line with the objectives of the Public Service Reform Programme (PSRP), which aims at improving the quality of service delivery to the people of Zambia, the Office of the Auditor-General was restructured in April, 2004. This has resulted in an expanded establishment from 289 in 2004 to 570 officers currently, and the creation of five new provincial offices in Chipata, Kasama, Mansa, Mongu and Solwezi. Other developments include the creation of a Directorate for Specialised Audits which includes units such as performance and environmental, forensic and investigations and information technology audits.

Sir, as a result of the developments mentioned above, the office has been able to widen audit coverage, respond to geographical challenges and implement new audit methodologies and techniques and meet unrelenting public demand for quality audit services.

Mr Chairperson, although the Auditor-General’s Office is required to audit all ministries, departments and institutions receiving Government subventions,  including private ones, the office has, like any other Government institution, faced financial constraints, but has consistently managed to meet its mandate.

Sir, the office has been able to discharge its constitutional mandate and, in fact, for six years running now, has been able to produce the Auditor-General’s Report on time. This is commendable. The Executive should also be commended for taking action on the issues raised in the Auditor-General’s Report.

Mr Chairperson, as at now, the Office of the Auditor-General has established offices in all the nine provinces to ensure that all public resources being spent by both central Government and local authorities are adequately audited.

During the year 2009, the office will concentrate on the audit of the 2008 Government accounts, focusing mainly on the social, economic and administrative sectors of the Government. The office aims at focusing its audit programmes towards areas that have increased Government expenditure.

Mr Chairperson, apart from the Government ministries and departments, the office has planned to audit a number of statutory bodies. The office will carry out both regulatory and performance audits on these Government programmes and public institutions. This strategy will provide the best audit coverage with the given resources and will help enhance accountability in the collection and utilisation of financial resources that will assist Government save money which will, in turn, be channelled towards programmes aimed at economic growth and consequently reduce poverty and improve the living standards of the people.

Mr Chairperson, I seek the support of this august House to pass the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General. At the moment, this is the budget we can afford for the Auditor-General’s Office. However, the office, like other governance institutions such as the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC), will be considered for supplementary funding in the course of the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, His Honour the Vice-President has alluded to the fact that there is an element of under-budgeting in most institutions this year and he will, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, come for supplementation.

Mr Chairperson, there is always a difficulty in feeling that, in fact, we are approving this Budget subject to supplementation. Proper planning and management dictates that the forecast must be close to what we want to achieve in a particular year. Much as I fully understand the concerns of His Honour the Vice-President, and, perhaps, give him a honeymoon this year as he has just been appointed Vice-President, he should not expect this kindness in future.

Mr Chairperson, you have noticed that hon. Members do not even want to debate this Budget because you have given the impression, as a Government, that you are suffering, and although you do not know what the problem is you have put in place a Budget and, therefore, we should move ahead. We refuse to do that because we expect an elected Government to be a bit more serious in dealing with matters. We can deal with some aspects of the credit crunch ourselves while others, of course, cannot be dealt with because we depend on donor money.

Mr Chairperson, this Budget is less than last year’s actual budget. Last year, for those of you who care about figures, it was K15.9 trillion because apart from the K13 trillion plus which we approved, there was a supplementary budget of K2 trillion. This means that the total Budget was K15.9 trillion against the total Budget of K15.2 trillion this year. Between K15.9 trillion last year and K15.2 trillion this year, in fact, because of supplementation, we are under-budgeting and we should discourage that.

Mr Chairperson, with specific reference to the Office of the Auditor-General, I find it very difficult to accept the view that some departments are not more important than others. Frankly, if we carried out a management audit of this Government today, three quarters of the departments and personnel could be done away with. However, because we value jobs so much, we have maintained these structures even at the expense of failure. This is an over-bloated Government with regard to ministries, departments and hon. Ministers. However, for political expedience, we will allow you to continue, but it will defeat you at the end of the day because people expect money to come from this bloated arrangement into investment.
Mr Chairperson, I have always said that I like to give fair criticism. My fair criticism is that there is no way His Honour the Vice-President, through you the Chair, if our councils in Lusaka, the Copperbelt and elsewhere were running properly, you can say that you cannot transfer the department of welfare from the Ministry of Community Development …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I know that you have always said, “Through you the Chair,” but I prefer what you always do. I would like to advise you to say, “He should,” and so on because that way it is more direct.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I take your wisdom and advice. They always appreciate what I say.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, if a Pemba sub-centre was run properly, we could transfer money from the budget for the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, a move I am not recommending, and send it directly to Choma District where it will be used well because the poor people are known there. However, we cannot do the same for the budget for the Auditor-General.

Mr Chairperson, having differentiated between what is important and what is not, I would like to say that this office is very important. In fact, in terms of divulging information on the bad accountability of the various Governments we have had, the office has done extremely well. It underpins the oversight of this Parliament on the expenditure of public funds.

Sir, the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) always collects revenue above its forecast. This is a fact and this information is sent all the time. Therefore, the problem is the fiscal management of resources by the Executive and not the shortage of money per se. The other problem is the lack of more sustainable planning when you have such wonderful documents which I fully support.

Mr Chairperson, to reduce the budget of the Office of the Auditor-General from K44 billion last year to K40 billion this year, when the total Budget has increased, is not advisable. It just gives the impression that this Government does not want the Auditor-General to raise the debris, shortcomings, malfunctioning and mal-factoring of situations.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I challenge you to fund all the institutions of good governance since we want to be a very democratic country. Last Friday, we were praising ourselves on our performance with regard to the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM). The lady you announced would come into the country has come. How would she feel if she were told that you were under-budgeting for the ACC, the Office of the Auditor-General and other institutions of good governance which improve our peerage? You may find yourselves being accused of not wanting to be democratic by under-funding these institutions and in the end, you may put up a face of being democratic just to attract donor money. We do not want donor money anymore but our own development.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the Leader of Government Business in the House, who does not seem to be paying attention this afternoon, that it is very important …

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes.

Laughter

Mr Malwa stood.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, actually, I did not give you the Floor ...
Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … because you did not indicate, but only shouted.

Laughter

Mr Malwa: I have indicated.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Member on the Floor continue, please.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, through you, I wish to advise the Leader of Government Business in the House and the Government at large, that your success is our success and your failure is our failure. Please, let us look at the things which we get concerned about. Therefore, please, do not cling to Government institutions which are meant for good governance. Maybe, you are better off offloading some of them to other arms of Government. I have debated this before on this Floor. For instance, it could have been appropriate for institutions such as the Auditor-General’s Office, ACC and Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) to report to the myriad of political players in this Chamber so that you are left to deal with issues relating to the actual development of the people of this country. Knowing you as I do, you will take this seriously because you are not over-ambitious.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: You are only ambitious …

The Deputy Chairperson: May you address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: … to the extent that the Chair would …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can you address the Chair.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You must say, “He is ambitious,” and so on because if you say, “You,” you invite interjections.

Mr Matongo: Through you, Sir, he is not over-ambitious. If he is, he is the type of person that we have learnt has a bridled attitude to ambition. It is not ambition for the sake of it, but because he wants to do a good job. Can he do a good job by persuading his colleagues that institutions of good governance should be left to other arms of Government like Parliament? This will do us good in the long run.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to decentralisation, you should not centralise in Cabinet Office. Send the funds to the districts so that the little money that you give us will be put to good use out there. Please, to avoid accusations that you want to make the Auditor-General’s Office inoperative, adjust some of the figures in the budget so that less than K4 billion is cut from the budget to this office. I have asked one of my colleagues to raise amendments to this vote. I hope he will do so and I think we will move peacefully in the spirit of give and take and negotiation.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate on the Floor of this House and I intend to be brief.

The Office of the Auditor-General is very important. To hear His Honour the Vice-President say that, during the course of the year, the Government is likely to consider giving the office supplementary funding is not a very healthy situation because that is not prudent budgeting. If last year, the budget for the office was about K44 billion and this year you have reduced it to K40 billion when the total Budget has been increased, it is imprudent and raises a lot of suspicion. What do you want to do to this office? Do you want to cripple it?

Mr D. Mwila: Mwebe Sichilima, boyi.

Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, if there is one thing that the immediate former President, the late President Mwanawasa, SC, has to be thanked for, it is the real independence that was brought to the Office of the Auditor-General. You might say that there was a lot of success scored during his tenure. That success probably came as a result of strengthening the watchdog institutions such as the ACC, DEC and Office of the Auditor-General.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: The type of budgeting where you even know that we are going to have a supplementary budget is not good. There are things that you can do away with so that this watchdog institution is funded adequately. Ever since the Auditor-General started producing reports that have been meaningful to the Zambian people, it has been very good. Ministries and officials in ministries have been scared of dipping their hands into Government coffers, but if you begin belittling this office by under-funding it, then you are going to leave room for people with long hands to really mess us up.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, reports of the Auditor-General had been produced, year in and year out, but most of them were of little use. I am mindful of the fact that His Honour the Vice-President said that a lot of action is being taken, but we want to see practical action being taken against would-be offenders and people that have been clearly implicated in the reports. We want that to be done rather than these reports just gathering dust.

Mr Chairperson, I am very thankful that the Government funded this office well and that, through the help of our co-operating partners, we are able to have these offices dotted across the provinces. We, at the end of the day, as per Government policy of decentralisation, should move the office of the Auditor-General towards having proper offices in selected districts so that, at the end of the day, all the districts in the country can be covered. However, with this low funding, one begins to get concerned that such a goal might not be achieved.

Mr Chairperson, I also like the good interface between the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) here at Parliament and the Office of the Auditor-General. This has to be encouraged. It ought to continue so that this country can move forward.

With those few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this chance to debate on the Floor of this House.

 First of all, I rise to advise those on your right. I advise them on the basis of good faith and remind them that the people of Luena, who sent me here, gave their presidential candidate an 82.7 per cent vote in October last year. That figure was only beaten by three constituencies namely, Kasenengwa, Msanzala and Sinda in Eastern Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Therefore, I am entitled to ask you to pay attention to my views on the Office of the Auditor-General.

Mr V. Mwale: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, let me remind you of the Mwanawasa legacy. The Mwanawasa legacy was founded on three pillars; an improving economy, the rule of law and abhorrence of corruption and corrupt practices. These were the three pillars. You have espoused the Mwanawasa legacy and have taken it as your own.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairman, from there I will move directly to the Office of the Auditor-General. I have said, on the Floor of this House, that the main problem that this country faces, even as we debate the Budget and even as we focus on expenditure, is really to do with revenue because we do not have sufficient revenue. Further, even the little revenue that we have is abused in the manner that is reported in the Auditor-General’s Report. It is, therefore, essential that as we have this limited revenue, the amount of abuse that it suffers is curtailed. The only way it can be curtailed is by having an effective external audit function and that external audit function is provided by the Office of the Auditor-General. As my colleague, the hon. Member for Pemba has already said, last year, this office used K44 billion. We are all aware that the Office of the Auditor-General has expanded its operations to various provinces. A number of offices have been opened in places like Solwezi and Kasama and more are due to be opened in Mongu and Chipata. Therefore, there is going to be an increased coverage of the mundane audit functions. In addition, the scope of the audit is going to change.

Mr V. Mwale: Bauzeni.

Mr Milupi: The Office of the Auditor-General will have to go for value for money audits. The office will audit information and communication technology (ICT) systems as well as environmental issues. This is what has been outlined in the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) and Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). These are good plans that have to be translated into action. A consultant in management once said, “Words are words; only performance is reality.” Therefore, even as you shout and say you support the ACC, you need to look at your actions. Your actions are clearly illustrated by the allocations in the Yellow Book.

Mr Chairperson, the Office of the Auditor-General had a ‘wish list’, that is what we used to call it in the corporate world, of an initial budget request of K63.4 billion. However, upon engagement with the Government, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, it was advised to limit the amount to the MTEF figure of K45 billion. This K45 billion was made up of K41.2 billion from the Government plus whatever comes from the donor community. In spite of this agreement, the Government has seen it fit to cut the budget of the Office of the Auditor-General to about K40 billion. I will delve into these figures a little to demonstrate exactly what we have done to the Office of the Auditor-General. This reduction is equivalent to an overall cut of 10 per cent from last year’s budget for this office.

Mr Chairperson, there are certain expenses that cannot be cut from a budget. One of them is emoluments because in this country and, indeed, in many other countries, someone’s salary cannot be cut. Therefore, what remains to be cut is the non-emolument part of the budget. Within that non-emolument part of the budget, there are overheads such as electricity. About 50 per cent of a budget accounts for overheads and other costs. Therefore, when the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General is cut by K4 billion, it means that the effective budget has been reduced by 30 per cent. This is a fact. The import of this is that the programmes that this office is supposed to carry out will be affected by 30 per cent. This means that the Office of the Auditor-General will no longer be as effective as it was last year. This has happened at a time when the overall Budget for this country has increased from K13.7 trillion to K15.2 trillion, which is an increase of 11 per cent.

Sir, last week, we were discussing the budget for State House which has enjoyed an increase of K2 billion. However, a critical oversight institution like the Office of the Auditor-General has suffered a 30 per cent reduction on its budget.

Mr Chairperson, these are critical matters. Hon. Ngoma talked about the link between the Office of the Auditor-General and PAC and, through PAC, to this Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, Parliament, through PAC, has an oversight role to play on the financial affairs of this country. To a large extent, the raw material for this Committee’s work is the Report of the Auditor-General. It is what is contained in the Report of the Auditor-General that allows Parliament to effectively perform its oversight function on the financial side of governance.

Therefore, if the effective coverage of the Office of the Auditor-General is reduced by 30 per cent, it means that the oversight role of this House will be affected. Therefore, why would this Government, which espouses the Mwanawasa legacy, abhors corruption and wants good governance and development, cut the budget of the Office of the Auditor-General?

Mr Chairperson, if I were on your right side, I would ask who is doing this. What does he want to demonstrate? I am sure it is a man because a woman cannot do this sort of thing. What do they want to demonstrate to this country with regard to President Banda’s commitment to the fight against corruption? Are we saying that just because President Mwanawasa is gone, President Banda is now disinterested in the fight against corruption and good governance and, therefore, we can reduce the budget of the Office of the Auditor-General? That is not right.

His Honour the Vice-President has said that this issue will be addressed through a supplementary budget. First of all, I hope that happens soon because even though Hon. Matongo said that we can move an amendment, I think that by the time you have finished with this vote, Mr Chairperson, it may be a bit late. Therefore, we would like that supplementary budget to be brought to the House quickly so that the budget for this office can be restored to what it should be, which is K45 billion.

Mr Chairperson, it is imperative that as we move forward, the independence of …

Hon. Member: Use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF).

Mr Milupi: Someone is saying that we should use CDF. I do not know why someone would say something like that. It shows lack of seriousness …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Ignore him.

Mr Milupi: … on these matters.

Interruptions

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, there are a number of areas that require to be covered. Every year, we are told of the abuse of funds not only in Government ministries, provinces and other spending agencies (MPSAs), but also in our missions abroad. Missions abroad are remote from this country and require much closer supervision. Therefore, the work of the Auditor-General and members of her staff is critical. If we reduce their budget to this extent, the first thing that will suffer is their ability to cover missions abroad. I do not think that this House wants that work to be affected.

Mr Chairperson, there are many things that I can say about this because I am passionate about this subject. However, I think that the hon. Members on the other side of the House are agreeable to the fact that for them to be recognised as a party and Government that espouses good governance, it is essential that oversight bodies, especially the Office of the Auditor-General, are fully supported. In 2009, regardless of the little resources that we have as a nation, the Office of the Auditor-General needs to do more and not less work, as has been suggested by this budget,.

Furthermore, there is need to ensure that the internal audit functions within ministries also perform. As a House, Government and country, we need to focus on preserving the little resources that we have even as we try to grow the size of the Budget. It is the only way we stand even a remote chance of developing at an accelerated rate.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to air my views on the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

Sir, your Honour the Vice-President, I will not say, “through the Chair,” because it is wrong and we have been advised to say, “Mr Chairperson, Sir.”

 Sir, this Government is wrong …

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: … to reduce the vote for the Office of the Auditor-General by K4 billion. Before I go far, may I congratulate the office bearer, Ms Chifungula. I may not pronounce her name properly, but may I be forgiven. I wish to congratulate her on the very professional manner in which she has audited this Government.

Mr Chairperson, this Government lies somewhere between a disaster and a finished government.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: In the corporate world, the office of internal auditor is a deterrent office. You are deterring a white collar crime from being committed. When deterrent measures are put in place, people will not issue cheques anyhow because of fear of the internal audit system that is in place. Currently, payments go through because the internal audit system is too weak. In other words, it is an organised ring of thieves.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, there has been an exponential growth in white collar crime in this country. Therefore, this is not the right time to reduce the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General. The public wants a government that punishes an offender.

Sir, many Permanent Secretaries have appeared before PAC for expending billions of Kwacha. This has been pointed out by both PAC and the Office of the Auditor-General. However, what have we seen? Promotions. How do you transfer or promote a Permanent Secretary who has defrauded a poor taxpayer in Shang’ombo?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: This is constructive criticism. In giving constructive criticism, we are trying to appeal to this Government to strengthen the Office of the Auditor-General …

Mr Syakalima: If it has ears.

Mr Muyanda: … by punishing a Permanent Secretary who dips his fingers …

Hon. UPND Members: Haakayobe!

Mr Muyanda: I will not mention any name here. You know them very well in your own offices. We want to take over from a government that has stamped out white collar crime. The tendency of purchasing officers to over-invoice has been clearly highlighted by the Office of the Auditor-General. What action has this Government taken?

Hon. UPND Members: Nothing!

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Sir, I am very serious.

The Deputy Chairperson: You are very serious, but you are not addressing me.

Mr Muyanda: Yes, I am facing the Chair, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: There are prevalent crystal clear offences that we have read in the Auditor-General’s Report. For instance, ghost workers and un-banked and unretired imprest. These crimes have been clearly outlined, but what has this Government done to the perpetrators? I am very disappointed with the reduction of K4 billion in the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General. This is the most unfortunate thing that this Government has done. It is the Office of the Auditor-General that you should use firmly to stamp out the culture of stealing in all the Government wings.

Mr Chairperson, there is a Tonga adage which I would like to share with this august House. “If you slaughter a chicken, you have taught a lesson to a monkey and it will not steal.” A monkey …

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: It is Tonga, Sir. It is just that Tonga is a widely spoken language. It starts from the valley in Sinazongwe up to Chief Chamuka and continues into Central Province. 

Mr Chairperson, that lesson is a good lesson for this Government. With these few words, I hope this Government will heed this constructive criticism and come up with a supplementary budget to support this vote. This is because this vote is critical to good governance.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, in supporting this vote, I have a point to make. I do not know whether much thought was given when figures were being put in the Office of the Auditor-General’s budget.  If His Honour the Vice-President can come to the House and begin by apologising for the fact that they have messed up the figures under this head, I do not know where we are going. Did you put these figures in the Yellow book as an after thought? Now that you have realised that people have been talking about it you have decided to come to the House and tell us that you will bring supplementary estimates for this vote. Usually, the supplementary estimates come in September. What are you going to do about the works that were supposed to start just after this budget has been passed? Where is your planning? If you under-budgeted even with regard to the amount of money in the MTEF, then you are not serious. Would we be wrong to begin to suspect that you want to, mark my words, Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, but you must address the Chair.

Mr Syakalima: That is why I am saying, “Mark my words, Mr Chairperson.”
The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, but I want you to say, “They are so and so. He is so and so’” because if you say, “You,” and so on, you will invite comments from the other side.

Mr Syakalima: It is the royal ‘You’, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Use the language I have told you.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: This year, some tasks are not going to be done. They will bring supplementary estimates to the House somewhere in September. By then, they would have done all the tasks. This year, when the Auditor-General’s Office carries out its work, you will find a lot of misapplication and misappropriation of funds in its report. Therefore, there is no reason for you to be forgiven.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Surely, you are a teacher, like I used to be. If you address them through the Chair, you are protected. Do not say, “You.” Because you are addressing the Chair, you must say, “They.”

You may continue.

Mr Syakalima: These people, including His Honour the Vice-President, cannot be forgiven. They are the same people. They are not different.

Hon. Opposition Member: The difference is the same.

 Mr Syakalima: They are the MMD and from 2001 up to 2006 if you still remember, Sir, K12 trillion was either misapplied or …

Mr Mwiimbu: Munched.

Mr Syakalima: Something like that.

Hon. UPND Member: Misappropriated.

Mr Syakalima: Misappropriated. The same people come to this House, year in and year out. Now that they have increased the overall budget, they have reduced the allocation to the Auditor-General’s Office. What do you want to hide? What do they want to hide?

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right.

Mr Syakalima: When they were campaigning, those of you who care to remember, if your memory serves you very well, these people rode on the Mwanawasa legacy of stamping out corruption. They made the Zambians believe them up and until they were voted in. Today, they are very bad people.

Laughter

Mr Syakalima: Today, no one mentions the late Mwanawasa. This is the legacy they wanted to show us. We have now realised. I am sure you all remember what I said. I said, on the Floor of this House, that the legacy had been buried with him. The most important legacy that everybody talked about at that time was stamping out corruption.

Hon. UPND Member: Kubeja.

Mr Syakalima: They must be having parties everywhere and saying since the Auditor-General’s Office has not been adequately funded, they will celebrate because by the time the law catches up with them, they will have gone.
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: If you still remember, two years ago, someone, after collecting money from the airport, fled with K1 billion. This is what they do.

Sir, we wonder whether our colleagues in Government really looked at the Office of the Auditor-General’s budget. Did they just dream up the K40 billion and put it in the Yellow Book and later realise that there would be need for a supplementary budget? What happens between now and when you bring the supplementary budget?

Hon. Milupi talked about the Auditor-General’s Office’s proposed budget of K63 billion which was intended to safeguard the K15 trillion in this year’s Budget. Who is going to safeguard this money? This money is gone.

Hon. UPND Member: They will munch it.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, when a system is rotten, there is nothing that you can do about it.

Hon. Opposition Member: A fish rots from the head.

Mr Syakalima:  I can assure you that this system is finished.

Hon. UPND Member:  Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Member: And it is rotting.

Mr Syakalima: Our colleagues on your right, Mr Chairperson, usually do not have answers when they come to the House. They never tell us anything every year. We already have the Auditor-General’s Report, and, once again, it is a mess. The MMD Government has remained with two and a half years and we are in trouble. By 2011, the MMD Government would have been in Government for twenty years. How many decades will we have lost?

Hon. UPND Member: Two.

Mr Syakalima: Two lost and wasted decades.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Syakalima: A child who was born on this ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I insist on the person debating addressing the Chair so that other hon. Members can keep quiet. Do not comment until the appropriate time.

The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Hon.  Government Member: He is provoking us.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, it is not about them versus us. This is my country. The money that is being misappropriated and misapplied is my money.
 
Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Do you know that between 2001 and 2006 K12 trillion was misapplied? The whole budget for one year was wasted? Mind you, when some of us speak, we help you. You will never find me bringing trash here.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: When we speak, it is not about you versus us. It is about all of us here versus the people. If schools are not built while K12 trillion is being messed up like this, who suffers? Hon. Colleagues, I wish to say, again, that one day, you shall pay for all this.

Hon. Opposition Member: One day soon.

Mr Syakalima: Many people used to run around saying, “Show me where the corruption is.” Where are they today? You are better off because you sleep well without looking over your shoulder and thinking that somebody will come at night and say they want to conduct a search or ask you how you acquired your property.

Hon. Hamududu: Where is the legacy?

Mr Syakalima: This is just a plea. If you want, you cannot take it. However, to tell you the truth, we have said everything that can be said. In 2011, we will go into the twentieth year of the MMD rule. That day is nigh.

Hon. UPND Member: Your indictment.

Mr Syakalima: We should not think that because we are here, we shall not have to account for whatever we do one day. Even if it is not you, yourself, …

Laughter

Mr Syakalima:  Mr Chairperson, even if it is not they, themselves, who misapply the funds, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes.

Mr Syakalima: … because mostly the people who misapply and misallocate the funds are those below, they are the supervisors. Therefore, they are the ones that will be called to answer. It is you who is going to be on trial that day. Therefore, you would do well to quickly bring the Auditor-General’s budget to a level where that office is able to supervise the K15 trillion. That is all we are asking for. Can a normal or reasonable person argue that we should not protect the K15 trillion?

Hon. UPND Members: No.

Mr Syakalima: Only the unreasonable, unthinking and unwise would like this K15 trillion to go into the bush or water.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Those of us who would not like to take over something that is in shambles will ensure that you increase the Auditor-General’s vote in order to protect the K15 trillion in this year’s Budget.

Lastly,…

Mr Hamududu:  Nchinzi ncoyanda kulekela? Time is there.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: …  Mr Chairperson, I hear a lot of talking, especially…

Hon. UPND Member: Shawa.

Mr Syakalima: … from the people on your right. Sometimes, it is very important, no matter how irked you are by what another person says, to go home and reflect on it and come back and implement it without thanking that person for what they had said. You can come back and implement their suggestion and nobody will accuse you of plagiarism.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Before I call upon Hon. Lubinda, let me just repeat what I have always said. The Chair sometimes pretends not to have heard what hon. Members have said, especially vis-à-vis addressing the Chair. I have tried all I can to make you get used to addressing the Chair. When you are addressing the people on my right and say, “You,” it means you are addressing them directly whereas when you say, “They,” you are addressing the Chair. I want all of you to imagine, when you are debating, that the discussion is between you, the debater, and me, the Chair. That way, you will be able to do it correctly each time.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, unlike my elder brother who represents Luena, which gave the President huge support …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that whereas my elder brother represents the people of Luena Constituency who gave the MMD Government thunderous support in the 2008 elections, I represent the people of Kabwata Constituency who did not give the MMD candidate any support to write home about in 2008.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the reason for this is that the people of Kabwata had good knowledge of the MMD and their candidate and feared exactly what we are seeing today.

Hon. MMD Member: Munabanama.

Mr Lubinda: They feared that giving another mandate to the MMD would mean reducing support to good governance institutions such as the Office of the Auditor-General. That notwithstanding, I still have the right to be heard. I will not only be heard because the people of my constituency supported your candidate, I shall be heard, and I insist to be heard because the people of Kabwata asked me to come here to speak on their behalf. Therefore, take heed, my dear friends.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkhata: Kambani cabe imwe, ba Lubinda.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the revelation by His Honor the Vice-President that this year’s Budget for the Office of the Auditor-General has been made with the hope that it will be supplemented, confirms the fear I have had over the last seven years, that budgeting is a mere ritual in this country. It is not respected.
 Mr Chairperson, no accountant allocates a department a little money in the hope that they will raise more money later in the year to give additional funding to that department. No one budgets that way. The reason every budget has a contingency vote is to ensure that areas that experience shortfalls can get funds from that vote. However, we are being told that the Government expects to raise more funds than is provided for in the Budget. They are literally telling us that they anticipate to raise more than the K15 trillion provided for in the Budget by the close of the year. If that is what they anticipate, why do they not amend the Budget now by increasing the total expected cash flow? That is how you Budget. You do not budget and hope that you shall get extra money by chance. If that chance does not come, what happens to the Office of the Auditor-General?

Mr Chairperson, I want to remind my colleagues that they are anticipating to grow this year’s gross domestic product (GDP) by 5 per cent. Given the current global economic position, it is a tall order to grow our economy by 5 per cent. If we do not manage to grow it by 5 per cent, we will not even manage to raise the K15.9 trillion that we anticipate to spend. If that be the case, where will the extra money to give to the Office of the Auditor-General come from?

Mr Chairperson, my colleagues, Hon. Matongo, Hon. Milupi and my good friend, Hon. Syakalima, made reference to figures and I wish to adopt their debates as my own.

Mr Chairperson, even though our Budget this year is K15 trillion, it is in effect, 17.26 per cent less than the 2008 Budget if you consider the end of year inflation rate of 16.6 per cent. In real terms, this means that any vote that has the exact allocation you gave it last year, is receiving 17.26 per cent less. It, therefore, follows that whichever vote you give less than you gave last year, has a decrease in real terms of 17.6 per cent. For the Office of the Auditor-General, that means a decrease in real terms of 21.4 per cent.

My colleague, Hon. Milupi, already questioned the wisdom of reducing personal emoluments. You will see that even at headquarters, salaries and not other emoluments have been reduced. What does that mean? Have you laid off some auditors?

Hon. MMD Members: Global economic crisis!

Mr Lubinda: I hear that the global economic crisis has affected the Office of the Auditor-General. I wonder why that global economic crisis has not affected State House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: When I debated the vote for State House, I asked why the global economic crisis had not affected it. Why should it only affect the Office of the Auditor-General?

Mr Nsanda: And State House animals?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, a lot of us are in this House because of the efforts of the Office of the Auditor-General. I want to agree with His Honour the Vice-President that over the years, the Office of the Auditor-General has performed extremely well. That office requires commendation and additional support.

Sir, some of my friends who are making running commentaries as I debate said to me that they were happy about the reduction in the allocation to the Office of the Auditor-General because it would save them the trouble of reading about scandals.

Hon. MMD Member: No political violence!

 Mr Lubinda: Can you imagine? Was the allocation reduced in order to stop the Office of the Auditor-General from unearthing scandals?

Hon. MMD Members: Question!

Hon. PF Member: What question?

Mr Lubinda: We would like the Office of the Auditor-General to be adequately funded so that those questions are answered. We would like the Auditor-General to find out how a party cadre can instruct a controlling officer to pay certain companies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is what we want. We do not want an Office of the Auditor-General that is on its knees everyday because it was ill-funded at the beginning of the year.

Mr Chairperson, my colleague mentioned that one of us was working on amendments. I have to say that unfortunately, we will not amend this vote at this stage. However, if the Government is gracious, they will defer it and bring it back next week with the correct figures.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda:  We are only asking for this office to be capacitated. If the Government uses the arrogance of numbers, as it always does, I want to assure you that we will embarrass it by attempting to amend the Appropriation Act. We shall move amendments to the Appropriation Bill.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: The Standing Orders and even precedents do not stop us from amending the Appropriation Act. We will camp here with an amendment. We do not want to take the risk of waiting for September before the Office of the Auditor-General can be given the resources it requires.

Sir, in addition, I would like to inform you that of the 40.7 billion that the Government is allocating in this budget, K4 billion is not even Government money, but donor money. This means that this Government is giving the Office of the Auditor-General only K36 billion. Compare that to what we gave them last year.

Hon. Government Members: So!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Do not say so!

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: If you have any arguments to make, please, rise and make them. I would like to say that I get infuriated …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … when people make running commentaries …

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: … on a matter that is so serious.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! When I say order and I am upstanding you have to sit down.

This is precisely why I advise the debater to address the Chair which you have been doing so far. If you feel very strongly about what he is saying, it is better for you to indicate so that you can debate and counter what he is saying. However, making running commentaries while seated really makes the work of the Chair difficult and I do not think that is your intention. However, by heckling him when he is debating, you are doing exactly that. Please, listen and may the hon. Member continue addressing the Chair as he has been doing.

Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Sir, and I will continue to address you.

Sir, I would like to appeal to my colleagues in the Government to give the Office of the Auditor-General the necessary capacity so that our meagre resources are protected.

Mr Chairperson, if you look at the Budget, you will see that monies meant for personal emoluments are being transferred from the districts to the province. I would like to appeal to my colleagues in the Office of the Auditor-General not to take any measures that will appear as though they are centralising the operations of the office. Rather, I would like to suggest that they indicate that they too are serious about decentralising so that our district offices are capacitated. Right now, I know that the offices are only at provincial level, but let us prepare ourselves to decentralise so that there is an officer from the Auditor-General’s Office in Pemba. That way, even CDF can be audited by the Office of the Auditor- General on an annual basis. We want to give the office the capacity to do this because the amount of money that we spend on an annual basis is growing.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Usually, when my very good elder brother is speaking, I do not rise to disturb him because I like following him closely.

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Shakafuswa: Sir, is the hon. Member, who is debating so well, in order to insinuate that, in Pemba, there are no representatives of the Auditor-General when the Auditor-General has internal auditors who do the work for her and she comes to do an external audit on the internal audits of the Government?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you may wish to take that point of order into account as you debate.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, my good young brother …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: No, he is an hon. Member.

Mr Lubinda: My good hon. young brother, who refers to me as his elder brother, …

The Deputy Chairperson: No you will not use those terms.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Use the right terms.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member of Parliament for Katuba, who was also hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, would do well to remember that internal auditors are not officers of the Office of the Auditor-General. Therefore, in Pemba, there is no representative, on a permanent basis, of the Office of the Auditor-General.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Lubinda: This is where we get things wrong. When you give people who do not even know the ‘ABCs’ of governance the authority to govern, …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: ... you will have problems.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: That is why we have kept saying, please, Zambian people can you not see …

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: … that the people who are ready to govern are on this side of the House. Give us the opportunity and you will see that we will not quarrel about giving money to institutions of good governance.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: That is the point and I am very glad that it has actually been emphasised. I do not have to belabour the matter.

Sir, I would like to use this opportunity to address our dear friends, the donor community. They have continued to support the Auditor-General’s Office. I would like to commend, on behalf of the people of Kabwata, and through them, the people of Zambia, the Auditor-General of Norway for the long standing co-operation they have enjoyed with the Auditor-General of Zambia. I know that they are phasing out their support. Be careful my dear friends from the donor community. You are increasing your budget support and, therefore, you are not able to track your money unless you capacitate our Auditor-General. Therefore, my dear friends from the donor community, you would do well to insist …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You are addressing them. Address me.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, through you, I am appealing to them to consider increasing their allocations and support to the Office of the Auditor-General directly. This is because if they continue to give only direct budget support, and the Government has the liberty to decide where to allocate money, we shall always have the problem of the Government allocating more money to areas that we think are not a priority and denying institutions of good governance and oversight, such as the Auditor-General’s Office, funds.

Sir, I would like to end by asking: does it follow that we are not funding the Office of the Auditor-General adequately because we want to have a toothless bulldog; one that will not be able to bite? If that is not the intention, then I am sure the hon. Members on your right will realise that our plea is based on the fact that we want to protect the meagre resources that the Government is managing for and on behalf of the 12 million Zambians. Therefore, let them get some money from other areas and give it to the Office of the Auditor-General so that all of us, at the end of the year, will be told a good story on how our money was spent. If that office is not funded adequately, we shall certainly continue to read about cadres going to influence the financial decisions of the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute and support the vote of the Office of the Auditor-General. This is a very important institution that deals with good governance in this country.

Sir, before I begin my debate, I would like to congratulate the Auditor-General on the award she received last year from the Association of Certified and Chartered Accountants (ACCA) in recognition of her contribution to promoting good governance and accountability in this country. She was identified as the most effective and dedicated Auditor–General in the whole of Africa who performed her duties very well.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Sir, I also want to congratulate her because in the 2007 World Bank Report, the Auditor-General’s Office was recognised as one of the most effective in Africa.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to register my disappointment, just like some hon. Members that spoke before me, on the reduction in the budgetary allocation to the Office of Auditor-General.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Sir, I think that somebody somewhere in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is responsible for this. I do not believe that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning really intended to reduce the budget for the Auditor-General’s Office. It is unthinkable to reduce funding to the Office of the Auditor-General when there are a lot of reports about the misappropriation and misapplication of funds and unretired imprest amongst civil servants in this country. I know that more attention has been paid to politicians, but I must also say that there are a lot of things going on in the Civil Service. Therefore, we must allocate more finds to the Auditor-General’s Office so that it can work effectively.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: At the end of the day, it is the name of the new Government that is being tarnished. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, through you, Mr Chairperson,…

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, it is not my intention to interrupt the young man, …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … the young hon. Member,…

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: No!

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … the hon. Member who is debating so well. In his very good debate, is he in order not to state that the reduction in the Auditor-General’s vote, inter-alia, presupposes that the Auditor-General may never reach the Cayman Islands? Is he in order not to mention things like that, Mr Chairperson?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, he is in order. You just found a clever way of debating for him.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Member on the Floor continue.

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that there is a lot of misappropriation of funds in the Civil Service. It is only prudent that the Auditor-General be given the money she requires to do her job. We want the record that this country has earned to be maintained. We do not want the achievements that the Auditor-General has made in the past few years to be undermined.

Mr Chairperson, it is time we thought about making the Office of the Auditor-General truly independent.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: The Constitution of this country states that nobody should dictate to the Auditor-General. Nobody should write to her or give her the terms of reference on what she should do in a particular year. She should be able to decide on her own. Nobody should interfere with her work. As a Government, we have done very well in that area, but the only thing limiting what she should do is the funding to her office. It is high time we thought about adopting the practice in other Commonwealth countries. In other Commonwealth countries, the Office of the Auditor-General agrees with the Public Accounts Committee on its budget. They submit it to the Treasury and nobody has the right to cut it because that would be interfering with the Auditor-General’s work.

Mr Chairperson, I urge the hon. Members of Parliament who are also members of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) to think about this issue seriously. We want the Auditor-General to keep doing what she has done in the past. She has done us proud. A lot of people that have come to this country, for example, hon. Members of Parliament from other countries such as the United Kingdom (UK), and have paid a courtesy call on the Office of the Auditor-General because they have heard and read about the good works which this office does.

Mr Chairperson, I am very suspicious that somebody in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, and I am not referring to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, may be trying to incapacitate the office of the Auditor-General so that they are not well audited.  All the departments in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and other Government departments may feel threatened. I want to say that this actually threatens the confidence that the people have in this Government.

Sir, I know that the Republican President means well. When he officially opened the Office of the Auditor-General in Kasama, he said that he would make sure that public officers, the Civil Service and everybody involved in spending public resources were accountable. People should not misuse public funds. The President said that and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning should support him. Let us give the Office of the Auditor-General enough money to carry out its work.

Mr Chairperson, the money that they are supposed to use to audit institutions has been cut by K2 billion and administrative costs have been cut by K2 billion. However I am more concerned about the allocation meant for the auditing of institutions. This shows that the Auditor-General, just like Hon. Milupi and others have mentioned, will not be able to carry out her work effectively. Probably, last year, she did a lot of work. With the opening of new offices in the districts, she is supposed to do more. The Auditor-General is now talking about performance audits. This is a new practice that the office wants to concentrate on. It is a new practice agreed on by the Auditor-Generals in the Southern Africa Development Community (SADC) and Commonwealth countries. They want to make sure that there is value for money when we spend public resources. How can the budget be cut when we are supposed to implement these new practices? Let us help the President. The President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning mean well and the hon. Minister should not let the people in that ministry ill-advise him. They should not advise him to cut the funding to the Auditor-General’s Office because they are afraid of being scrutinised by the Auditor-General.

Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor. I also want to thank all the hon. Members that have contributed to the debate.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to add my voice to those who have commended the work of the Office of the Auditor-General that we all appreciate has done this country a lot of good. It is the wish of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and the Government, at large, to continue supporting the Office of the Auditor-General so that this good work can continue. Certainly, speaking for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, we wish to work closely with the Office of the Auditor-General so that some of the malpractices that have been reported, year in and year out, can be reduced and where they do still happen, tangible action can be seen to have been taken for corrective purposes.

Mr Chairperson, it is because of the appreciation of the good work being done by the Office of the Auditor-General that this Government has, over the years, continued to provide tangible support to the Office of the Auditor-General. In the past few years, we have seen the expansion in the infrastructure of the office. We have also seen the recruitment of more staff and technology being applied. This is good for the citizens, the donors and the entire country because it enables us utilise every single ngwee that is collected as wisely as possible. It is for this reason that His Honour the Vice-President mentioned that a supplementary provision would be brought to the House later in the year so that the work can continue being done.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I would now like to talk about the specific reductions being mentioned. As we go through the Yellow Book, you will notice that it is not every institution that sees an increment in the budget from the previous year. The reasons for this are varied. For instance, in certain cases, you may find that in the previous year, a concerted action was taken to increase the budget for a specific one-off action.

Hon. MMD Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: That being the case, it would not be reasonable to expect that in the following year, the same amount will be reflected. Therefore, as you look through the Yellow Book, please, do not just look at the amount and compare it to the previous year’s. You must understand the context under which this has happened.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, in the case of the 2009 budget for the Office of the Auditor-General, we shall be able to see that, in fact, the operational budget has not been cut. If you look through most of the lines that are operational, you will notice that they have not been cut. Let me, therefore, provide an indication on the kind of lines that have been cut and why.

The types of cuts that have been made are, in fact, common to all the ministries and institutions that are part of the Government. For example, I indicated, when I was winding up the Motion, that for us to generate the various resources that we have, we had to put in various development programmes …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: … a number of line items all across the Government that had to be cut. For example, I indicated that all the lines to do with staff loans across the Government were reduced. Indeed, in the case of the Office of the Auditor-General, this was no exception. Staff loans have been cut in all ministries and Government departments because we wanted to save money for development purposes.

Mr Chairperson, I also indicated that another area where we had to cut across the entire Government is that regarding motor vehicles. The only ministries we spared from this were the ministries of Health and Agriculture and Co-operatives for the purchase of motorcycles for extension works. Otherwise, the allocations for motor vehicles have been cut across all the ministries and the Office of the Auditor General is no exception.

Mr Chairperson, we have also had to cut on capacity building. I have listened very carefully throughout the debate on the Budget. A number of hon. Members talked about the prevalence of workshops and seminars across Government ministries and departments. I do not think that anyone here can deny that this has been said. We have cut that across the entire Government and the Office of the Auditor-General has been no exception.

Mr Chairperson, I think that these are the main areas where the Office of the Auditor-General has suffered cuts. These are cuts that were made across the entire Government for reasons that I indicated. I am sure that hon. Members will understand because they are the same people who have been saying that there are too many Government vehicles, too many seminars and too much money going to staff loans. Therefore, that is what we have done and I do not see why hon. Members should complain.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I do not want to be confrontational. I just want to ask all the hon. Members to understand the situation we are in. This Government’s intention is to support the Office of the Auditor-General. We have been strengthening this office since we came into power. The Office of the Auditor-General was not as strong as it now.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We have made a lot of reforms. For example, we have decentralised the office …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … so that it is now a very strong office which is able to conduct audits more effectively. In fact, the office is not behind in rendering audit reports. The Office of the Auditor-General renders reports regularly. Therefore, we will do everything possible to ensure that the Office of the Auditor-General functions normally throughout this year. You will note that we have not cut the operational lines.

Sir, we are encouraging all Government departments to be efficient and cut down on costs …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!
The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and the Auditor-General’s Office is no exception.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we have a lot of requests for funding over and above the ceiling which many departments and ministries received. Almost all Government departments wanted funding over and above what they were allocated. In the case of the Auditor-General, the reduction is K4 billion, which has been explained. Therefore, the operations of the office will not be affected.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore, I would urge hon. Members to support this budget. Let us move and ensure that the office operates.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 07/01 − (Office of the Auditor-General − Headquarters − K29,396,967,331).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I rise to seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 01 − Salaries Division 1 − K5,419,284,004 and Activity 05 − Other Emoluments − K1,278,024,784. The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and His Honour the Vice-President who doubles as learned Minister of Justice both stated that the operational costs of the Office of the Auditor-General have not been affected. I want to find out why they have reduced the allocation to salaries by K35,000,000. They have also reduced Activity 05 from K1,366,097,009 last year, to K1,278,024,784, and yet it is anticipated that, this year, officers of the Office of the Auditor-General will have their salaries upped to cushion them against inflation. What is the rationale behind this?

The Deputy Minster in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, the allocation to Activity 01 for 2008 included people that were not on the payroll. The reduction has occurred because we are not recruiting this year. The 2008 allocation included people that were on the payroll as well as those that had not yet been recruited. This time around, we are only putting the actual figure for the Ministry of Finance and   National Planning.

Sir, the increase in Activity 05 last year covered the other emoluments that went to those people who were not on the payroll and who are not going to be recruited this year.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I followed the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President’s response very clearly. However, if it is true that the allocation for last year included officers who were not on the payroll, this budget would have shown the corresponding saving declared in that vote. The fact that it shows total authorised in the Yellow Book means that the total amount that was allocated by this House was spent. Therefore, there is a discrepancy in the response that we are being given. Had there been any people not on the payroll to whom we had allocated money, this office would have declared a saving which is not the case. May he please clarify this.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, issues to do with salaries depend on the actual establishment; the salaries and wages which are payable. For example, if it is leave days on Activity 05, some of the leave days may have been paid last year. Therefore, these are the actuals. We budget for the actuals.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/13 − (Office of the Auditor-General − Lusaka District Office − K42,239,000).

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I would like to know why the whole departmental total has been reduced from K328,835,192 to K42,239,000. The actual areas where the reduction has taken place are Programme 1, Activity 01 − Nil and Activity 02 − Nil and Programme 2, Activity 01 − Nil and Activity 02 −Nil. I would like to know why there has been this massive reduction.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Sichilima the reduction is due to the waving of the project to build a wall fence.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda laughed.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, as a follow up to the answer, I would like to request His Honour the Vice-President to read out the specific activity concerning the wall fence under this head because I do not see it and while I have the Floor …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Only one question at a time.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, personal emoluments have been taken to the head office.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Bamalukula!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has answered the question. Therefore, he has explained.

Vote 07/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
VOTE 07/14 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Kabwe District Office – K44,141,300).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, it is appreciated that the money under Programmes 1 and 2 has been transferred to the provincial headquarters. However, the hon. Minister mentioned that the operations of the Office of the Auditor-General have not been affected. I seek clarification on Programme 7 – Auditing – K44,141,300. Why is it that last year a total of K106,910,000 was allocated to audit four clients in Kabwe and this year, the amount has been reduced drastically to a paltry K44 million to audit six clients? In answering that, can the hon. Minister kindly tell me what kind of audit will be conducted for Client No. 1437 for which only K3 million has been allocated? What kind of audit is that?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, audit activities, as we have heard, vary from year to year. In one year, you may intensify the efforts, the next year that effort may be reduced. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that every year, the same institution is going to be audited. It varies from year to year.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Yes! Hear, hear!

Vote 07/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, even when you talk, I move on to the next item. In the process, somebody may want to ask a question and I may not see them. Therefore, let us pay attention.

Vote 07/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07/21 – (Office of the Auditor-General – Mongu District Office – K40,931,950).

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7 – Auditing – K40,931,950. Western Province, Mongu in particular, has had very bad reports in the last two audits. Therefore, I would have expected that the audit activity would be increased in that area. Why have we suffered a reduction in the allocation to audits from K106,910,000 to K40,931,950 in spite of the prevalent problems in that area?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, the answer is the same as I indicated earlier. The intensity of audits varies from year to year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 07/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Head Total – K40,726,743,645 is agreed to.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Deputy Chairperson: We now move on to …
Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I do not put the question on the Head total. I put the question on the departmental totals. From the time we started, questions were raised on some departmental totals and, in the end, we agreed. Therefore, there is no need to put the question on the Head total.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Honestly, that is the procedure unless you want to change it.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We need to follow our own procedure. To be very honest, if, for example, you had queried one of the departmental totals and called for a division, we would have had a division on that particular total.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! But on this …

Interruptions

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of procedure.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We have to understand our own procedure.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: I will allow that point of procedure to be raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Chairperson, the procedure in this House is that when you come to the Head total, a vote is carried. That is the standard procedure we have been following as per Standing Orders of this House. I need your guidance.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will use the Chair’s discretion and put the question on the Head total.

Hon. Opposition Member: Long live the Chair!

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Is that the procedure?

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 07 – Office of the Auditor-General – K40,726,743,645 be part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – (64)

Mr Akakandelwa 
Mr A. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr R. C. Banda
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Dr Chishya
Ms Chitika
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Ms Kapwepwe
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mrs Masebo
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mpombo
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Mulyata
Mr Munkombwe
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Mutati
Mr Muteteka
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Pande
Mr Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shawa
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sichilima
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Silavwe
Mr Simbao
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Tembo

Tellers for Ayes:

Mr Hachipuka 
Ms Cifire

Noes – (42)

Mr Bwalya
Mr Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamududu
Mr Hamusonde
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kasoko
Mr Katuka
Mr Lubinda
Mr Malama
Ms Masiye 
Mr Matongo
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Msichili
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga
Mr Muntanga
Mr Mushili
Ms Mwamba
Mr Mwango
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr D. Mwila
Mr Ngoma
Mr Nsanda
Mr Ntundu
Mr Nyirenda
Mr Sejani
Mr Simama
Mr Simuusa
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr Syakalima

Tellers for Noes: 
Mr Mangani 
Ms Chitika

Abstentions – (5)

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

____

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___

The House adjourned at 2000 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 25th February, 2009.