DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 29th October, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

______

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

THE TASK FORCE ON CORRUPTION

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to deliver this ministerial statement. Cabinet, at its meeting, yesterday, 28th October, 2009, decided to fuse the Task Force on Corruption into the Anti-Corruption Commission in line with the recently-launched National Anti-Corruption Policy. The Task Force shall be transformed into a department of the Anti-Corruption Commission with immediate effect.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Under this policy, the Anti-Corruption Commission shall be the lead institution in the fight against corruption. The Anti-Corruption Commission shall take over all the criminal cases started by the Task Force on Corruption and continue with their investigation and/or prosecution.

Mr Speaker, the Task Force on Corruption is an ad hoc institution that was established by the late President, His Excellency Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC., may his soul rest in peace, in July 2006, in exercise of his presidential powers, to investigate and prosecute cases of plunder of national resources and corruption which occurred during the reign of the second Republican President, Dr F. J. T. Chiluba, between 1991 and 2001.

The Task Force comprises members drawn or seconded from the Zambia Police Force, Anti-Corruption Commission, Drug Enforcement Commission and Zambia Security Intelligence Service and has been assisted by private legal practitioners in the prosecution of cases.

The Task Force on Corruption has substantially executed its mandate and most of the cases under its jurisdiction have either been concluded or are pending appeal in higher courts. A few cases are pending trial in the subordinate courts.

In line with the National Anti-Corruption Policy, the Government shall build capacity in the Anti-Corruption Commission and create specialised departments that shall deal with related crimes such as serious frauds, financial crime, corruption and money laundering. Cases that were being investigated and prosecuted by the Task Force on Corruption shall be fused in the relevant department referred to above.

Mr Speaker, the Government shall also create a financial intelligence unit and strengthen the Drug Enforcement Commission and Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Under this new arrangement, the Government shall employ highly motivated legal practitioners, forensic investigators and other experts.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: During this transition period, only one private prosecutor, currently prosecuting the remaining cases for the Task Force on Corruption, shall be allowed to continue with those cases under the auspices of the Anti-Corruption Commission, but his terms of engagement shall continue to be reviewed depending on the volume of work still to be attended to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Hon. Members may wish to know that of the three private legal practitioners engaged by the Government to prosecute for the Task Force, one of the legal practitioners had his services terminated due to lack of work, while the other, namely, Colonel Godfrey Kayukwa was appointed Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission. This left only one private legal practitioner, namely, Mr Mutembo Nchito who is still dealing with the remaining cases.

It is also public knowledge that the Task Force on Corruption is currently being managed by the said Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission who is its current Acting Chairman. It is the intention of the Government to streamline and re-align the fight against corruption.

With regard to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, which I have already mentioned, the Government shall pass legislation for the creation of the National Prosecution Authority which shall employ highly motivated legal practitioners to prosecute cases under the direction and superintendence of the Director of Public Prosecutions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The same arrangement has been introduced in respect of the Legal Aid Department which has been turned into a statutory body known as the Legal Aid Board.

The conditions of service for legal practitioners, forensic investigators, other investigators and experts in the Anti-Corruption Commission shall also be improved. In fact, conditions of service for officers in the Anti-Corruption Commission have been improved tremendously recently.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Eventually, we shall discontinue the practice of relying on private practitioners in prosecuting cases and rely on public officers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The Government has also commenced the process of drafting legislation which shall provide a legal framework within which the fight against corruption shall be executed. There is need to fight corruption in a coherent and not fragmented or duplicitous manner.

The Office of the Attorney-General will also continue with its role of representing the Government in civil cases which may arise from the fight against corruption. In this regard, most of the civil cases started by the Task Force on Corruption have been taken over by the Attorney-General’s Chambers and are being competently attended to.

Mr Speaker, at inception, the Task Force on Corruption was substantially being financed by co-operating partners. Along the way, the co-operating partners stopped funding the Task Force, and it has since been fully funded by the Government.

Mr Speaker, the Task Force on Corruption, in executing its mandate, has successfully prosecuted several high profile cases involving senior public officials and other persons and recovered several assets which were misappropriated and or corruptly acquired from public funds. Notwithstanding this position, however, sustaining the operations of the Task Force and retaining private legal practitioners in Zambia and in foreign countries has been very costly to the Government. The value of assets recovered and amounts of legal fees paid to local and foreign lawyers have been provided to this august House from time to time through parliamentary questions.

Mr Speaker, we must now move on with the implementation of the National Anti-Corruption Policy and enact appropriate legislation which meets international standards. The Task Force on Corruption was not created by an Act of Parliament. Instead, it utilised the Anti-Corruption Commission Act, the Dangerous Drugs Act, the Zambia Police Act and the Anti-Money Laundering Act in executing its functions. The Anti- Corruption Commission, which is assimilating the Task Force on Corruption, is already backed by an Act of Parliament and we shall enact further legislation to strengthen the fight against corruption.

Mr Speaker, as already stated, the work of the Task Force on Corruption shall be fused into one of the departments of the Anti-Corruption Commission to be created with immediate effect.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate and emphasise the Government’s commitment to the fight against corruption. We shall continue to fight corruption in line with the National Anti-Corruption Policy. For your information, this policy is the result of wide consultations conducted by the Anti-Corruption Commission with civil society organisations, churches and various stakeholders, including the Government. We are appealing to all Zambians, Parliamentarians and other stakeholders to join the fight against corruption.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We would also like to urge the co-operating partners to continue assisting Zambia in this fight.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Finally, as we embark on this transition, and in line with our cherished rules of transparency and accountability, the Task Force operations shall be audited by the Office of the Auditor-General.

Mr Speaker, I thank you for this opportunity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are now free to ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement given by His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out why it has taken the Government this long to realise that the Task Force on Corruption was not legally backed and that it is costly to operate.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I do not agree with that assertion. Interpretations on the Task Force on Corruption have been given by the Office of the Attorney-General. It is unfortunate that the matter regarding the legality of the Task Force is in court. All we are appraising the House …is it appraising or apprising?

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: …are the measures which we have taken and we are not admitting anything regarding the issue raised.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, we are all aware that in the New Deal Government, His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice was hon. Minister of Justice. From the statement given, I would like to find out why he did not advise the then administration because he was the one in charge of the Ministry of Justice and the one who represented Zambia in London at the London Court.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the advice which I was giving to my Government is confidential and remains between myself and the Government.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sejani (Mapatizya): Mr Speaker, does His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice want to agree with me that all these things he talked about, such as the implementation of the National Anti-Corruption Policy and the creation, phasing out and fusing in of institutions will not take us anywhere as long as there is no political will to fight corruption? Does he want to agree with me?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: How can you say that there is no political will when we have just launched the National Anti-Corruption Policy …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: …in which we have involved stakeholders? We have the political will to fight corruption and we would like to urge all Zambians, including the hon. Member for Mapatizya, to join in the fight. I must add that we shall fight corruption genuinely and not fight it like some people do, for monetary gain.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We want to ensure that public resources are prudently managed by the Government. This is what is driving this Government. The co-operating partners and the Zambian people have confidence in us and in the way we are managing the resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, at the time the late President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, may his soul rest in peace, created the Task Force on Corruption, there must have been a very good reason, possibly a weakness in the Anti- Corruption Commission. I would like to find out why the late President created it and what has changed now for it to be disbanded.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the reason for the creation of the Task Force was simple. It was intended to fight corruption. The Task Force has executed its mandate and that is why we have decided to fuse it into the Anti-Corruption Commission. It is not necessary to have two institutions at the moment. In any case, we have just launched the National Anti-Corruption Policy which we have accepted as the mode through which we shall fight corruption.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice whether the infusion of the Task Force on Corruption into the Anti-Corruption Commission will not create a blotted labour force. If so, how many people will be laid off from the Task Force?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the work of the Task Force will be assimilated into existing structures of the Anti-Corruption Commission. What we have done in the ACC is to devise new salary scales by way of decompression of salaries and we hope that by doing so, we will retain more personnel because, in the past, this has been the problem.

Lawyers and investigators have been leaving this institution. In other words, it has more, or less, been like a training ground. With the measures that we have taken and the structures which have been put in place, we are confident that we can now take over the few cases which may have remained from the Task Force. In other words, there will be no blotting of the labour force because this will be streamlined so that we can fight corruption in a coherent manner.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the word ‘fusion’ connotes an amalgamation consisting of two or more bodies. Everyone knows that the Task Force has always been an ad hoc institution drawing its members …

Mr Speaker: Order! What is your question?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, members of staff of the Task Force on Corruption were drawn from different institutions, and they will be redeployed to their original institutions. What does His Honour the Vice-President mean when he says ‘fusion’? Is he informing the nation that all outstanding assignments under the Task Force will now be performed by the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC)?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we want to retain some of the expertise which has been developed through the Task Force on Corruption. Therefore, it is important that this particular expertise is fused into the ACC. By the way, some of the officers who were working at the Task Force are from the ACC. They will just go back and, then, become part of the specialised department which will be doing the same work which the Task Force was doing.

I thank you, Mr Speaker

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President name the individual or organisations fighting corruption for monetary gain?

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that some people form non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and in the process, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Name them!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I do not want to mention such organisations because it is public knowledge that, when they are fighting corruption, their agenda is to get money from co-operating partners and foreign organisations. For example, organisations, such as Transparency International, get money from outside and co-operating partners. Therefore, they earn a living through the fight against corruption and make statements every day. You can also set up a newspaper primarily to fight corruption and all you need to do is just make allegations and money will start flowing. This is common knowledge in Zambia.

Laughter

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, the co-operating partners funded the Task Force and later on stopped. I wonder why this happened. Is there any hope that they will come and support this development?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the responsibility to fight corruption is not for the donors. It is for all of us. Therefore, the Government should fund the fight against corruption. As to why the donors stopped funding when they promised to, and were initially funding the Task Force, this is based on their own reasons. As far as the Government is concerned, it will not stop funding the fight against corruption because it is good for this country and helps in preservation and proper management of public resources.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice whether NGOs that are getting monies to fund their operations and their existence like TIZ have, actually, done a good job in coming up with cases of corruption.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice:  Mr Speaker, yes they have although they make statements that are not constructive.

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The NGOs should work in a manner that engages the Government for it to learn from their experiences.

 Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

The Vice-President: The problem with the TIZ and some organisations is that they make it difficult for us, as a Government, to differentiate a political agenda from the fight against corruption.

 Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: That is the problem with Transparency International.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, in view of the apparent confusion which has taken root in this country vis-à-vis the role of the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) when it comes to institutions and discontinuation of criminal proceedings, may His Honour the Vice-President make it clear, here and now, that notwithstanding the creation of bodies like the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC), ACC or the now dead Task Force, the DPP shall always remain the institution that will be in charge of criminal prosecution in this country. May his Honour the Vice-President please comment on that?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, under the Constitution, the DPP is independent and his powers can only be exercised exclusively by that office …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and that shall remain the position under the Constitution and our laws. This is also the position in several Commonwealth countries.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, His Honour the Vice-President has indicated that the legality of the Task Force is still to be determined. I would like to find out from him  how are the monies that have been recovered from the time of its inception are going to be accounted for and besides, as a body, where are the financial statements so that we can link them with the performance of this Task Force?

The Vice-President ad Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the Task Force on Corruption and, indeed, any Government operation is subject to audit by the Auditor-General’s Office. I said that since we are going into a transition, audits have to be conducted and there must be a proper handover.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

ASSET VALUE OF LUANSHYA MINE

Mr Chota (Lubansenhsi) (on behalf of Mr Kambwili) (Roan) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) what the total asset value of the Luanshya Mine, including Baluba was; and

(b) when the assets were last valued and by which valuers.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Speaker, there is no valuation report available. However, China Non-Ferrous Metal Mining Corporation bought the asset at US$50 million.

The seller did not give China Non-Ferrous Metal Mining Corporation any information on when the assets were last valued and by which valuer. The new owners are yet to conduct an evaluation of their asset.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chota: Mr Speaker, who are the sellers and was the Government not involved in the sale?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, the owners of the Luanshya Copper Mines then, Enya Holdings, held 85 per cent shares and 15 per cent of the shares were held by the Zambian Government. As we all understand company law in this country, as a Government, we had no control because we only had 15 per cent shareholding.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether it is Government policy to sell off national assets without valuating them. This is because this is the same thing that is happening with the Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL).

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member cared to listen to my response, I indicated that as by Zambian Company law, when you hold 15 per cent shareholding, your say is nothing.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, from the answer given to this House by the hon. Minister, it is quite clear that there was no valuation that was done. What value and economic sense is happening now in determining how we sell our national properties?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for that question, but it appears to be the same kind of question. I would like to state that the mine was sold by a private owner and he was happy with the US $50 million.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

NATIONAL CENSUS

159. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) when a national census would be conducted; and

(b) how much money was needed to conduct the census.

Mr Speaker: The Chair, would like, always, to be updated when arrangements which are made fall away. Right now, my record is showing that Hon. D. Mwila, Member of Parliament for Chipili, would not be in the House this afternoon. My record shows, therefore, that the hon. Member of Parliament for Kantanshi was going to ask his question, but both are in the House.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The rightful owner of the question has asked his question.

Mr Mubika: Go out!

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the august House that the national census is expected to be conducted in August, 2010. The total budget of the national census is K231,627,051,700.00 broken down as follows:

Activity     Amount to be spent
 Census Mapping K 39,804,140,000.00
 Pre-Census Activities K 3,110,510,000.00
 Pilot Census K 1,945,440,000.00
 Main Census K 180,292,339,200.00
 Post Enumeration Activities K 6,474,622,500.00

 Total K231,627,051,700.00

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I want to find out from the hon. Minister when …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning in order to give us figures of the 2010 Budget which has not yet been passed by this House? Is she in order to read out those figures?

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Following that point of order by the hon. Member of Parliament for Kalomo Central, I would like to guide the House that, as the situation is, at the moment, there is a difference in the sense that, yesterday, you resolved to go into Committee of Supply to deal with next year’s Budget and, in particular, you have in your possession that big book which we call the Yellow Book. That is now a public record. If you want to know, whoever printed it put the price of this book. You can actually buy it for the price that is shown on the cover. How much is the price? Is it K200,000?

Hon. Members: It is K220,000!

Mr Speaker: It is K220,000 and is now a public record. Therefore, what the hon. Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning has said refers to the indicative budget. For the organisation that is going to conduct the census next year, I do not think she said that amount has been approved by this House. She did not say that. Therefore, she is in order.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, we have been informed that the census exercise will start in August, 2010. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when the exercise will be completed since we expect to have elections in 2011.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, the census will be completed well in time for the purposes of the elections. I do not have the exact dates here, but the hon. Member can see me during break and I will give him the date.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, what plans is the ministry putting in place to ensure that that the ‘censors’ in the rural areas have transport? I am saying this because the school leavers that were sent to rural areas last time, could not access some places because they had no transport.

Mr Speaker: Just to assist there, it refers to ‘enumerators.’ Is it not so?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the budget that we are going to debate and hopefully approve has provisions for the procurement of the necessary infrastructure to enable the enumerators to get to the point where they will be working from.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if this exercise is going to kick off in all the nine provinces at once because, in the past, we have seen that the exercise has been done in phases.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the census is normally done at the same time throughout the country, but obviously just like any other mammoth exercise, there may be lapses here and there. This means that some people may start a little later, but the principle is that everything must be done at the same time.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, currently at the National Constitution Conference, there are things that are being referred to the referendum and this calls for a census to take place. What is the timeframe the Government has set so that the census is done expeditiously?

 Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the question sounds like the one that was asked earlier which asked that the censuses starts in August and that it be done as expeditiously as possible so that it satisfies all the requirements that are needed for the elections. I said, I do not have the date when the census will end off-the-cuff but normally, it is just a few weeks, of course, followed by the actual processing of the data. So, it will be well before the elections.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! If I may guide, I believe the hon. Member for Sinda’s question related to the possibility of your ensuring that the 2010 Census is also the kind that is required to deal with the constitutional referendum. So, are we having two or there will be just one census?

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, a census is an extremely expensive process and so there will only be one census.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Mr Speaker, I would like to learn from the hon. Minister, taking into account the inflation levels, whether he is not going to come back to this House for supplementary estimates for this venture.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, a budget is normally crafted on the basis of the best available information, at a given time, and so we believe that the amount that we will propose for the census should be adequate. But if for any reason, it turns out that the proposed amounts are not adequate, then there will be a good reason to come back to this House for a supplementary.

I thank you, Sir.

_________{mospagebreak}

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

THE SUPREME COURT AND HIGH COURT (Number of Judges) (Amendment) BILL

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Repeal and replacement of section 2, Number of Supreme Court Judges)

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move in Clause 2, in lines 6 to 9 by the deletion of Clause 2 and the substitution therefor of the following new Clause:

Repeal and replacement of section 2

2. The Principal Act is amended by the repeal of section two and the substitution therefor of the following new section:

Number of Supreme Court Judges

2. There shall be eleven judges of the Supreme Court, including the Chief Justice and the Deputy Chief Justice.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 2, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 3 – (Repeal and replacement of section 3, Number of Puisne Judges)

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 3, in lines 10 to 14 by the deletion of Clause 3:

Repeal and replacement of Section 3

2. The principal Act is amended by the repeal of section three and the substitution therefore of the following new section:

Number of Puisne Judges

3.  There shall be fifty judges of the High Court.

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 3, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title is agreed to.

___________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The Supreme Court and High Court (Number of Judges) (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Report Stage on Friday, 30th October, 2009.

_______________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

ESTIMATES OF REVENUE AND EXPENDITURE (INCLUDING CAPITAL AND CONSTITUTIONAL AND STATUTORY EXPENDITURE) FOR THE YEAR 1ST JANUARY, 2010 TO 31ST DECEMBER, 2010

VOTE 01 – (Office of the President – State House – K23,529,381,708)

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice, SC (Mr Kunda): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present the 2010 estimates of recurrent and capital expenditure for the Office of the President – State House.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, let me state that the institution of State House plays a critical overarching and supervisory role in providing national guidance and overall policy direction to our country. Hon. Members are well aware that it is here where Executive functions are directed from through Cabinet, as well as other high level consultations. It is also, indeed, here where the Head of State oversees operations of the Government and exercises his Executive duties.

Mr Chairperson, given this mandate, the policy objective and role of Sate House has been encapsulated in the Mission Statement outlined below, namely; to provide visionary and effective economic, social and political leadership to the nation in line with the Constitution in order to facilitate sustainable development, promote peace, stability, rule of law and democratic governance.

Mr Chairperson, in support of this Mission Statement and to give it specific focus and direction, State House is served by the following goal, that is,

“to effectively guide the operations of Government, promote unity, attain economic growth and reduce corruption and poverty in the country.”

Overview of the 2009 operations

Mr Chairperson, State House has continued to carry out its planned programmes and budgeted activities within the confines of the available resources as dictated by the recent economic down trend. However, in pursuit of its role of providing overall national guidance, State House has continued to work closely with both local as well as international stakeholders in providing direction to the economy in the turbulent times that recently rocked the global economy.

Through this guidance, the Zambian economy has maintained the stability necessary for further growth. Hence, the performance of planned programmes and activities at State House has largely remained on course within the confines of the available resources. The ongoing activities will continue on the basis of the estimates before this august House.

The 2010 Budget Estimates

Mr Chairperson, for the information of hon. Members, the State House functions are performed through three key departments, namely;

(a) Presidential Secretariat, which is responsible for the efficient and effective execution of the Presidential day-to-day programmes;

(b) Advisory Services, which comprises five distinct areas of specialisation with the critical role of providing professional and technical backstopping to His Excellency the President on various divergent matters that are brought to the attention of the highest office in the land; and

(c) Administration, which is charged with the main roles of efficiently and effectively manning staff, provision of logistic and material support services in order to facilitate the smooth operations of the institutions. In addition, it is responsible for the maintenance of the State House surroundings and management of the State Lodges and the State Lodge Farm.

The budget estimates before the House will enable State House carry out operations of these departments as well as attend to personnel emoluments, maintenance and servicing of the VIP fleet and maintenance of State House buildings.

Mr Chairperson, let me also mention that, being part and parcel of the world community, it is necessary for State House to engage the global community in pursuance of peaceful co-existence and the international co-operation necessary for the growth of our economy and society. It is for all these programmes that I wish to appeal to the hon. Members to support the estimates of State House as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the vote. In supporting the vote, I would like to emphasise the importance of the institution, and hence, the need to make sure that we fund the institution sufficiently. In response to the sentiments which have been expressed by His Honour the Vice-President, State House is a seat of political, economic and social activities. It is an institution that is expected to maintain peace. In other words, State House must be seen as a centre of all political and economic and social activities, hence the need to fund the institution sufficiently. There are a number of specialised institutions that have been established which are supposed to provide efficiency in the way the operations of that institutions are supposed to be conducted. For example, the Public Relations Department must be strengthened in order to counter some of the allegations that are always made by some individuals. This is because some of the allegations, if not countered, may be so damaging to the Presidency, even State House as an institution, hence, the need to finance the institution sufficiently.

Mr Chairperson, in our own environment where you encourage competition some people may wake up one day and create a falsehood and it is up to that institution to clarify certain matters. Although, we have created the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services and the same Minister is the Chief Government Spokesperson and he has done extremely well. There are certain allegations that are supposed to be expended to by the public relations section at State House.

Otherwise, certain allegations may be very damaging to the nation if State House does not take action. Apart from that, the section dealing with economic matters is expected to give credible advice to the Head of State so that Zambians are aware of the direction in which the economy is going. Therefore, this section should also be funded sufficiently because it needs to produce a lot of documents. It needs to interact with a number of specialised agencies beyond the Zambian borders. The officers in this section can only perform their functions efficiently if it is sufficiently funded.

Furthermore, State House must be seen to evaluate the performance of all political appointees, especially managers, so that the programmes, which have been initiated by the Government of the day, are implemented without difficulties. It is not worthwhile to have an institution that has been created at State House to monitor the implementation of projects inadequately funded. This area must be funded sufficiently because the managers who are working in that section are supposed to find out why funds, which have been released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, have not been disbursed as quickly as possible.

At the moment, there is a contradiction between the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and other ministries in terms of when funds which have been released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning should be further released to spending agencies. For example, funds which were released by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning are held by the Accountant-General who is insisting that she can only release the funds upon each and every ministry submitting documents indicating the contractors who will work on the projects to be undertaken by the ministries. This has never happened before. These are delays in the implementation process. How do you move in such a fashion?

Contractors are undersigned upon release of funds to spending institutions. Funds must be disbursed to provinces and districts and then the district personnel will be able to engage the contractors who are supposed to implement the same projects. These are areas which are supposed to be attended to by State House. It has to move in and correct the situation rather than dillydallying.  What I am saying are facts. If the Government is not careful, …

Mr Kambwili: Corruption.

Mr Kasongo: … and I have always said this, the Civil Service can bring it down. State House must be sharp enough to give direction to this effect.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to address this shadowboxing taking place in Government agencies. It is a sheer waste of time. This is October moving on to November and by the time we get to December, which is very soon, it will be the middle of the rainy season. How are hon. Members on your right going to attend to all the projects if the Accountant-General is holding on to the money for no purpose? These are issues that are supposed to be clarified by State House. It should move in as quickly as possible and give instructions to the Account-General so that funds are released to spending agencies.

His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has also informed this House that State House must maintain peace and that is cardinal. For that institution to ensure that there is peace and stability in the nation, there should be some kind of interaction between the Head of State of our country and his counterparts from different parts of the world. Unfortunately, a number of people in our country have said that the President travels a lot. These people do not even know what this entails. The President must be used as a marketer of our own country. The President can attract investment to our country and therefore, he is not expected to be at State House while other presidents are busy looking for investment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: This must be realised. We cannot elect a president who will just be at State House all the time. How does he market Zambia to the outside world? It has never happened before. Even in developed countries such as the United States of America and Britain, the Heads of State move up and down to market their own countries and so on and so forth. So I would like to appeal to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to ensure that he pays little attention to people who say that the President travels a lot because they do not know what they are talking about.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: Sometimes, they like to create a very hostile environment …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: … just to score political points.

Furthermore, when there is a crisis of any kind in the country, those who are advising the President at State House must provide strong leadership. That is why it is important to evaluate the performance of some of the managers. If we look at the recent fuel crisis, the specialised agencies at State House were supposed to advise the President to take action as quickly as possible.

For example, at the political level, action may have been taken by the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, but there are certain institutions such as the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) which were created for this purpose.  However, officials of ERB were managing the crisis from their offices. This has never happened before. How do you manage a crisis from the office?

So the institution responsible for the evaluation and implementation of programmes must give credible advice to the Head of State. The hon. Minister did his part, but the operatives were just spectators. We expected the ERB officers to leave their offices and move from one filling station to another to find out why some oil marketing companies (OMCs) were hoarding fuel. In the process, the Government even allowed a situation whereby some politicians were moving with their empty twenty-litre …

Laughter

Mr Muntanga interjected.

Mr Kasongo: … containers looking for fuel.

Mr Hamududu: What if there is no fuel?

Mr Kasongo: Such people can create a crisis out of a situation that is manageable.

Mr Chairperson, what I am trying to say is that when preparing the budget, the Government should make sure that it gives a lot of money to State House. It should not listen to the prophets of doom. After all, when they go to State House, they will be the worst spenders of public resources.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, I thank you most sincerely for allowing me to contribute to this very important vote in the budget. In so doing and since I did not have the opportunity to debate the policy surrounding the budget, let me seize this opportunity to congratulate my good friend, Hon. Geoffrey Bwalya Mwamba, on his beautiful performance in Kasama.

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, let me also congratulate the Untied Party for National Development (UPND) and Patriotic Front (PF) for consummating an arrangement whereby they shall work collectively in providing steadfast checks and balances on the Movement for Multi-Party Democracy (MMD) ‘returning party’ or bwezani.

Sir, the decision of the two parties was a clarion call from the Zambian people and it shall certainly be rewarded as we have already started to witness in both constituency and ward by-elections.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Some have said that it will take us more than 100 years before we form a government. Such words shall not discourage us. Instead, they just fire us up even more and we are pleased that we have commenced on a very long and difficult journey because this journey is not for us on your left, but for the people out there, the people of Zambia. They are the ones who have always called for the consummation of political alliances.

Sir, this is a journey for the suffering majority of Zambians. The President at State House is not and should not be an end in itself. I agree with my colleague, Hon. Kasongo, that the office requires support. The presidency is meant to be a point which rallies all citizens towards national harmony and social, economic, cultural and political development. That is the essence of the office of presidency.

However, experience has shown us differently. The 36th President of the United States of America, President Lyndon B. Johnson, who ruled from 1963 to 1969, said it very aptly when he said, and I quote:

“The presidency has made every man who occupies it no matter how small, bigger than he was, no matter how big not big enough for the demands of the office”.

What he meant by this, Sir, is that people go for presidency even as small people, but when they emerge from there, they are bigger than they were initially. However, even big people, when they go to State House, they can never be big enough for the challenges of that office. This means that the presidency needs support at all times and that the presidency is a lonely office. This is the reason the presidency needs constant counsel and advice from all walks of life.

Sir, quite clearly, the current occupant at State House, whom we all knew as Vice-President in this House, has changed during this short period that he has been President. We no longer hear the jokes that he used to share with us here any more. The friendliness we used to fill here, we do not sense it any more. Therefore, what is the reason for that? This is largely because of the ill-advice that he is getting.

Sir, I want to give an example. It is wrong for the President to go out and call his fellow citizens bags of mealie-meal and vioneni vimasilu, meaning look at these mad people, and yet those same mad people are the ones who should give him advice and assist him to govern this country. However, this is not because the man is alone. It is largely because of the advice he is getting from the people around him.

At this point in time, I would like to agree with Hon. Kasongo that those surrounding the President must give the President correct advice. It is wrong to go to the President and say, ‘Mr President people should not complain that Pay-As-You-Earn (PAYE) is contributing so much to domestic revenue because this is not happening in Zambia only. It is the same even in the United States of America and United Kingdom.’ They are supposed to tell the President that Mr President the employment rate in the United States of America as at September, 2009 was only 7.9 per cent unlike the situation in Zambia. This means that the majority of the people in America are in employment and are carrying the burden of the few whereas the situation here is totally different. It is the few who are carrying the burden of the many. If those close to the presidency are not advising him appropriately, the presidency is bound to make mistakes.

Admittedly, the President is supposed to market the country, but he cannot market the country if at a press briefing he refers to his same country that he is supposed to market as a poor country. How does he inspire investors if he declares his country poor? Zambia cannot be declared poor by any standards. It is remembered by all who have memories that at that beautiful press conference where there was an extremely exciting interaction between monkeys and people, the President, in talking about the problems with medical staff, said Zambia was a poor country. How do we inspire investors if you declare your country poor?

The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has been saying on the Floor of this House that this country is certainly not poor because it is endowed with a lot of natural resources which are being externalised at the expense of the Zambian people. The resources of this country are building universities, and yet the Zambian children do not have access to university.

Sir, we do agree that the President should travel and represent Zambia, but he must go and represent Zambia at fora that are befitting of the President. I do not subscribe to the idea of a President becoming the tourist attraction of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The President cannot be the marketing manager for Zambia. Instead, this is the reason the Government has a Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry or Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources. This is the reason Zambia is paying so much money to keep diplomats in foreign missions to do the marketing on behalf of the President. What is their job if the President is going to be the marketing manager for the country? How can the President leave the country at the time when there is a strike and you say he is marketing Zambia?

When there is a huge fuel shortage in Zambia, he is leaving for a meeting where he could have sent his Vice-President, Minister of Works and Supply or even Deputy Minister for that matter. Should it be the President who travels everywhere? No. That is wrong and it is time for our colleagues to start advising the presidency. The presidency is not for any particular party, but for the country. It is the taxpayers who are financing the operations of that office and, therefore, everybody must take responsibility to ensure that the conduct of the people at State House is for the good of the Zambian people.

Sir, the President deserves to be shielded from the accusations that are arising from the misdemeanors of those around him. We know him to be a very nice man and some people have said that he is a very benevolent and caring father. As such, we tend to think that he is trapped in that benevolence because even those who misconduct themselves find a shield. For us, if he is going to shield impropriety, we shall blame him and condemn him outrightly.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It is, therefore, the duty of our colleagues on the right to make sure that they conduct themselves in a manner that does not bring demeanor to the presidency. If they are not punished for whatever they do, then we will say that it is because of kwasha mukwenu, help yours. We do not think that is what he wants. We think that he deserves respect from those who are working with him. When they conduct themselves in dubious manners and are protected, then obviously, it brings the presidency into question.

Sir, the president in this country deserves respect from everybody. However, it is a well known fact that a parent who does not respect his children, very quickly falls into the trap that he lays for himself. If a parent continues to antagonise and insult his children, then you expect the children to answer back. Let me, therefore, request that my colleagues on your right should be the last to be provocative because when they start talking about leaders of political parties that are on your left, what do they expect of us? We will not spare them. We shall also answer back. Then when we answer, we will do it with the wrath that we have and they will eventually be the losers. They have been asking us to thank them. We are willing to thank them, but only if they also show that they are willing to respect us. These matters are mutual. For as long as they do not show any regard for us, they should not expect us to thank them.

Sir, I want to ask my colleagues who are making comparisons of figures between Zambia and the United Kingdom (UK) and Zambia and the United States of America (USA) to also take leaf and compare the expenditure at State House with the total budget  of the White House as a proportion of the total budget of the USA. It is incredible. Zambia’s State House spends eleven times as much as White House in proportion to the total budget. That would be a very bad analogy because you are comparing eggs and apples. However, I would like to, therefore, to appeal to my colleagues that as they debate the budget, they must not draw into the picture influences which do not fit because that is extremely dangerous to do. I would like to call upon my colleagues to go back to State House and say that it is not acceptable that direct taxes from people should be as much as it is in Zambia when the people in this country are not benefiting from the exploitation of their resources.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr  Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Thank you, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support the vote on the Floor.

Allow me, Sir, to begin lightly by saying that it feels nice to pass by State House early in the morning when I am taking my child to school and find the lawn outside the premises of State House looking green. I have not seen that in a long while. That is very good. The lawn there was grey for quite a long time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr E. C. Mwansa: It gives, Sir, a good picture of the place that accommodates the President of the Republic of Zambia and consequently a good picture of the presidency.

Sir, allow me to say that I agree with what Hon. Kasongo and Hon. Lubinda had said concerning how we ought to look at the presidency. I want to go a little further and say as we look outward to those who are close to the President, we also need to look inward to ourselves and how we handle that office because the hon. Members who are on the left side of the House are equally represented by the presidency. It is my appeal that we begin to take leaf from how our colleagues in other countries handle the presidency. I remember not too long ago that one of the republicans in the United States of America (USA) called the president of that country a liar. The entire system in USA rose against that individual until he was forced to apologise publicly.

Hon. Government members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Why is that so? The simple answer is simply that the way the president acts is a reflection of his or her country. The President of the Republic is a reflection of our being as Zambians. To the international world, that is the man who represents Zambia. We may not like him and his policies, but we must build him up because in so doing, we will build ourselves and help the country grow.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr  Mwansa: If we give the impression that we do not have respect for the person who holds that person, we are actually giving the world the impression that we have no respect for ourselves. My appeal is that as we look to you, give him proper advise so that we too…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members at the back should consult quietly.

You may continue, please.

Mr  Mwansa: It is important, Sir, that we too must speak about the presidency with decorum and respect. When we differ with him, we must differ on principle not personality.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: When we differ with him, we must show why we differ with him properly so that action can be taken to correct the mistakes that he is making. We make a great mistake if we differ in a manner that makes the President think that he is hated and consequently becomes defensive. We must always ensure that when we differ with him, we must look at the reasons for the difference so that he can make the country grow.

Another point that I want to bring to the attention of the Executive is that not too long ago, the late President, may his soul rest in peace, had written a letter to all hon. Members asking them to become an eye of the Executive in the implementation of programmes in the constituencies. I do not know what has happened to that letter now. I do not know which ministry has ever come to us with what programmes they have. They have to go back to the Yellow Book and look at the programmes taking place in our constituencies. I want to advise the MMD Government that was a very brilliant idea which needs to be followed up because if all of us are ensuring that the programmes that have been carried out in our constituencies are monitored, the praise will come to you. You will be the ones getting the credit for what is taking place. Sometimes because we have this schism between us, as the Opposition and Government, we fail to see things that benefit the people. We are all elected to develop this country and ensure that the programmes that the Government is carrying out in various constituencies are implemented properly and the finances are utilised for the good of the people in those areas. Please, follow up on that letter. If it is possible, why not ensure that you put up some write up on how best hon. Members can do this job and how best the Executive can ensure that the programmes that are going on gets to hon. Members so that there is no excuse for failure. The failure of a hon. Member of Parliament to carry out or monitor those programmes in their constituencies will then reflect badly on that hon. Member of Parliament. Please, take leaf from that wonderful letter from the late President. Advise the current Head of State to see how we can implement that which was commenced earlier.

Sir, I want to support the vote for State House because it is the mirror of the country. I want to support the vote for State House because I believe that as we sit here, we will be showing a reflection of ourselves through that one single individual in whom we repose the power of the State.

Hon. Member: Hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, we need to realise that that single individual has a burden on him to carry. I also remember that at one time in the USA, there was a certain gentleman who was president. I will not mention his name, but I think that those who have read history will recall, who was literally carried out the duties of the president because it appeared that he had some mental problems. However, they managed him so well that you could not tell that he was in problems, until the Watergate scandal made it apparent that there was something wrong with him.

Hon. Member: Say which president that was.

Mr Mwansa: Sir, the country knew that they had reposed authority in that individual and carried him through to ensure that the image of USA remained intact to the world. I wish we could take a leaf from that kind of experience.

Mr Chairperson, we will have various presidents as this country grows. Some will be sane individuals while others will be almost raving lunatics.

Laughter

Mr Mwansa: Whatever the case, it is our responsibility to ensure that we develop a system that assures us that whoever gets into State House, the system will not collapse.

I plead with His Honour the Vice-President to begin working on measures that ensure that whoever takes over that office, whether mad or normal, intelligent or dull will not affect our country negatively.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for recognising that I have been very quiet and have been listening, as per your advice and also being part of a listening Government.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to pick up from where my brother Hon. Kaingu left when he debated in this House. He said that jokes are accepted in our society, but that in most cases, when an elderly person jokes with a younger person, the younger person ought to be mindful of the words to use when replying at a particular time.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, in support of the Motion on the Floor, I would like to say that it is now becoming common knowledge that our colleagues on your left are so angered that they are not in power. We appreciate the time that they have been waiting to be in State House. It has taken too long for them and proving that it will be even much longer before they can get there, hence the anger which they are now exposing.

Mr Chairperson, the debate today surprises me in that it has been mild, albeit a bit provocative because some of them were on the right side before while others where in our party and others have been our advisers even though they have ended up that side. They do not realise that possibly, this is the reason it has been very difficult for them to operate on the other side.

Sir, we have been guided not to mention the two parties, but there was a very large group that ended somewhere there where I used to sit when I was in the Ministry Local Government and Housing. We saw reach when sited right up to the exit door as others exited and only a few members remained. After they realised that they were going to exit completely, they had to think twice and see if they could have the support staff they could exit with because we will soon be growing much bigger in number.

Mr Chairperson, I want to dwell on the issue of respect for the occupant of the institution of State House. The one in State House is like a parent. If you do not respect the incumbent President, I do not know how the respect will flow to the next president that will be in this office that we say is an institution.

Sir, some smaller presidents outside were beaten in some radio stations by members who were on our side, but are now on that side.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, because a snake will always be a snake and cannot change its habits, even when that side, it pollutes the other wing to start insulting where it is coming from.

 Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, we have seen the trend. I was in the Kasama Central election campaigning where Hon. G. B. Mwamba emerged winner. As cool as he sounded on one local radio station, outside he had …

Mrs Musokotwane: Friends.

Mr Sichilima: … as Hon. Regina said, had a friend who was already polluted and picking paid carders …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have been quietly following your debate and I am afraid we may go to what we have been advised against. This is why I kept quiet a little longer. I think you have dwelt too much on politics. Let us debate whether the funds for the Office of the President are enough in view of the work load of the office. We should move towards that direction.

You may continue.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance, but nabonfwa.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Anyway, some hon. Members touched on the presidential trips and that that the President should be a marketing manager.

Mr Chairperson, everything that happens in this office is planned for, hence our call on hon. Members to support this vote.

Mr Chairperson, let us look at countries within the southern region. It is impossible to attract investment without the consent of the president. You have to take the president on board. It is a pity our colleagues have not had this privilege that some of us have, which I think they never be given, to travel with the Head of state.  Those of us who have traveled with the Head of State can tell you that what happens is proper marketing where the presidents ignite conversation about something and hon. Ministers follow, hence the development that we see.

Sir, this is the case with the mines in the North-Western Province. These mines did not just come by design and neither has the agricultural turn around. Some of the roads are funded by our colleagues outside the country who the President and hon. Ministers have  lobbied at different forums. State House is an important institution.

Sir, I will still dwell on respect in terms of Zambians talking too much. Look at the image builders of our colleagues. Every headline of some of our newspapers talk about the President in the negative. Here is a President who is fighting to attract investment and may be speaking good things about Zambia at some forum, but when an investor comes to Zambia, he or she finds such headlines about the President. What will an investor enjoy about Zambia?

Today, on one forum, he may be speaking good things that will make an investor come and enjoy when he comes to Zambia, but the following morning there is a negative headline in that regard.

It is surprising that this has been extended to relatives now. Recently, we saw the picture of the President’s son and his wife in the paper.  How would I feel if that was my sister or wife? Those are facts.

Sir, I do not want to waste much of your time, but to remind my colleagues that let us respect others as we would like them to respect us, especially when we are in office.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on the debate before the House. As usual, I will try to be brief.

Sir, Hon. Ernest Mwansa made a very important distinction and I would like to build from his argument on the need to respect the Presidency by further suggesting that a country’s political culture is also related to the need to respect the leadership of that State. I think, to the extent where we lose sight of the need to respect the individuals we have given to ourselves as leaders in our country, we are deteriorating to the verge of crisis.

The institution of the Presidency is an office where a number of political leaders compete in order to ascend to that office. The Zambian people, collectively, in their wisdom, decide that one person - woman or man - is of the qualities necessary to provide leadership for them. That person, I want to argue, deserves our collective respect.

We have developed a culture of abusing the individuals we elect to offices of authority.

Major Chibamba: That is what we are going through.

Dr Kalumba: Imagine how you would feel, as someone who occupies the office of Member of Parliament, when you are constantly being abused, insulted and demeaned. It is an expression of a primitive political culture.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: A civilised society understands the need to build images of success.

Sir, like Hon. Lubinda has said on this Floor of the House, the President cannot go and market this country and say that our country is poor. I shudder to think that he was serious. I do not think he was. I think he was making a joke.

Interruptions

Dr Kalumba:  This is because he knows that, collectively, we went to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), presenting a position that Zambia was a HIPC country - a Highly Indebted Poor Country!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: The President has the obligation to go out and argue for support in order to move this country from the jaws of poverty …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: … to the prospect of prosperity.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: If he did not know that his people were living in poverty, I am sure he would be living comfortably in State House and drinking cups of tea.
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: However, our President realised the pain of poverty and had to go out to source and mobilise resources as well as lobby for support.

Mrs Phiri: Question!

Mr V. Mwale: Mumbi Phiri, Nokia Face of Africa

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It hurts when you know that your people are suffering.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: You cannot stand in the shadows of comfort at home in Kabwata …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, before break, I was advancing the point that poverty …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, give him chance to debate.

Dr Kalumba: … in Zambia is real.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: The suffering of our mothers and brothers in rural areas is real.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It is a sin for a leader, president of a political party or Member of Parliament to pretend or suggest that the President should not talk about the poverty of his country. That is sinful! Somebody needs to go to some confession box for those sins to be forgiven.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It is dangerous to think like that. What reason do I have, as an ordinary Zambian, to vote into office a person who does not understand that walking for fifteen or sixteen kilometres to fetch water is misery? If you do not understand that, you do not deserve to be in State House.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: You are supposed to be in some farmer’s house somewhere.
Laughter

Dr Kalumba: The farmer’s house …

Hon. Opposition Member: Where?

Dr Kalumba: It is in Lusaka on Kabwe Road.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, why do you want to engage him when you had your chance to debate? Give him chance to debate.

Continue, hon. Member.

Dr Kalumba: Politics must be about alleviating human suffering. It must be about committing ourselves to acknowledging the realities that confront every human being today in Zambia, in our compounds and villages, when they open that door every morning and wonder where to get a piece of bread and a ten-kilogramme bag of mealie-meal for their families. This Government is not going to pretend that these realities do not exist, because they do. We have leaders bold enough to admit that, “My leadership is R. B. Banda and I will go out there and say that we need help”.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: That is why, although Dr Machungwa and I are back benchers today, we did our best. We must give ourselves credit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Peter, we did our best ...

Dr Machungwa: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: …to make sure …

Interruptions

Dr Kalumba: I got this country to the decision point and he (pointing at Mr Magande) got it to HIPC Completion Point because we acknowledged the realities of poverty.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: With regard to leadership, our President, who has been in office, must be given credit for keeping the faith and focus necessary. If a President starts thinking that he is too comfortable to talk about poverty for his people because they will laugh at him, it will be a shame.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity. I shall be extremely brief.

Sir, the 2010 budget for the Office of the President - State House - has increased from K22.8 billion this year, to K23.5 billion next year. This is an increase of 2.9 per cent, which is not much.

Mr Chairperson, I do not think that the figures allocated to State House are what should concern us. We must all recognise that the Office of the President is an important institution in this land and we should rather focus on what it can do for this country. That is what is important. Depending on the results of its endeavours, any figure would be suitable.

Mr Chairperson, the very fact that we have had a 2.9 per cent increase, to me, is an indication of the difficulties that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has had with putting together the 2010 Budget because of the resources that are available to us. As I said, rather than focus on the amount of money being allocated to this institution, we should try to focus on what it can do for this country.

Mr Chairperson, the theme for the 2010 Budget, as I said in my earlier debate, has three operative words, which are growth, competitiveness and diversification. These three operative words mean that the whole country, including the President, must focus on what needs to be done to ensure that we achieve them. One aspect that makes me very sad - and already this last week, both the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning and His Excellency, the President have made reference to it - is the high banking interest rates in this country. Both have approached it by way of pleading with the banks. Let me remind this House that we do not put these people in high offices in order for them to plead with the institutions that require the co-operation of this country.

Sir, this morning, I went to one of the foreign banks with a view to opening an account. I asked what interest I would get on a savings account. They said I would get 1 per cent for anything up to K2 million; 2 per cent from K2 million to K 25million; and for anything above K25 million, I would get 3 per cent. Then, I asked them how much interest I would have to pay if I got a loan.  The base rate is 25 per cent and the margin is 8 per cent. This means that to get a loan from this same bank, I would have to pay 33 per cent against an interest of 1 per cent for putting my money in a savings account.

Mr Chairperson, much as the President has already referred to the fact that these are extortionate interest rates, we demand to see action. This is constraining growth, competitiveness and diversification in this economy. If these things are done, we will then say even the money that we are allocating in this Budget to that high office will have been money well spent. This is the only way we can grow this economy.

Mr Chairperson, the other issues which you hear from those on your left are not meant to be insulting. This is what happens in a democracy. Views have to be expressed. If those on your left are concerned about the number of trips out, it is a genuine complaint. It is not an insult.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: For those of you who expect to have a democracy where only your side is heard, then we say where were you? What do you think people were fighting for in 1990 and 1991? It was so that we could have a House such as this where issues are discussed and advice given. You can choose whether to take it or not, at your own peril. We think that certain advice, whether from your right or left, can move this country forward. Sir, I said that I would be very brief so I will end here.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, listening to the debates in this House, most of the hon. Members have been very constructive. They have supported the budget for the Office of the President. They have debated that we should respect the Office of the President. I must thank them for the overwhelming support for the vote. Of course, we have been advised by Hon. Mr Speaker that we should not lower standards of debate in this House and make wild statements. For instance, we should not make sweeping statements such as saying that the Presidential trips have not been worthwhile to Zambia, without being specific.

Mr Chairperson, we have travelled out of this country. We have discussed the global economic crisis and shared ideas with other delegations from other countries. We have discussed matters to do with how we can improve the agriculture development in this country.  There are various international events which the President attends and which are worthwhile to this country. Let us not make statements which are not backed by facts. We have to be specific. Which conference did we attend that was not worthwhile to Zambia?

Mr Chairperson, there was an allegation that the money spent at State House is far above money spent at the White House in the United States of America. Someone uttered this statement without giving any figures whatsoever. This is mere politicking, especially by Hon. Lubinda. Otherwise, Sir, the debate has been very constructive. We should support the Presidency.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 01/01 ─ (Office of the President ─ State House ─ Headquarters K23,529,381,708).

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 05 ─ Management of State House Wild Animals ─ K80,880,000. Although I represent the people of Chongwe, I am also an animal activist. There was an item in the press that the monkeys at State House had been moved …

Mr Shakafuswa: Tutunda tunda!

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: …and I have since heard that some of these monkeys are not doing so well. You know when you are used to living in luxury …

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: …with a golden spoon in your mouth.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Masebo, what is your question? You are debating.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I see that the amount has remained the same, in fact, there is a very small increase from K80 million to K80,880,000. Therefore, my question is that is part of this money going to those monkeys that have been transferred from State House to wherever they have been transferred to?

The Vice President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, this amount is for animals which are at State House.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 01/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02 – (Office of the Vice-President – K20,327,752,748).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the estimates of expenditure for my office, the Office of the Vice-President, for the period 1st January, 2010 to 31st December, 2010.

Mr Speaker, allow me to remind the hon. Members that the Office of the Vice-President derives its legal status from Article 45 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia.

 In this regard, the Vice-President is the Principal Assistant to the President in the discharge of Executive functions and is responsible for advising the President with regard to the policy of the Government and with respect to any other such matters as may be assigned to him by the President.

Arising from this mandate, the portfolio functions of the office of the Vice-President include:

(i) leader of Government Business in the House;

(ii) disaster Management and mitigation;

(iii) resettlement; and

(iv) investiture ceremonies.

The Office of the Office of the Vice-president also performs important cross-cutting functions regarding issues referred to it by line ministries and other institutions on matters such as:

(i) social  Welfare, Poverty Alleviation and HIV/AIDS;

(ii) chiefs affairs and traditional ceremonies;

(iii) religious affairs;

(iv) governance; and

(v) labour and public relations to mention, but a few.

Sir, my office will, next year, commence an extensive consultation process with stakeholders to review performance under the 2006/2010 Strategic Plan and put in place a new plan for the period 2011 to 2015. It is my hope that strategic stakeholders, the hon. Members of Parliament, will not hold back any suggestions and constructive criticisms as and when called upon on how best the office should deal with important national issues under its mandate.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to report that during the 2009 financial year, my office was allocated K20,166,347, 550. In 2010, my office has been allocated K20,327,752,748.

My office houses the Department of Resettlements which is responsible for implementing the land resettlement programme. This is a very important programme in as much as it promotes relocation of idle labour from cities and towns to the agricultural sector in the rural areas of our country to contribute to household and national food security.

In the past three seasons, floods have been experienced in several districts of our country. Such floods have negatively affected households in flood-prone areas. In order to reduce the negative impact of floods on human life and property, the Department of Resettlement is implementing pilot human settlements for displaced persons programme in two areas. That is in Kazungula and Mumbwa districts.

Mr Chairperson, my office also houses the Parliamentary Business Division. As you are aware, this is the division that co-ordinates and processes all Government Parliamentary Business such as questions for oral and written answer, Action Taken Reports, ministerial statements and various other information memoranda to enable hon. Members make informed decisions. The House will recall that in the first meeting of the Third Session, which started on 16th January, 2009, the House, among other business, considered 201 Questions for Oral Answer and fifteen for Written Answer while in the Second Meeting which started on the 14th of July, 2009, the House considered 300 questions, seventeen Bills and ten ministerial statements in addition to other business brought to this House all of which was ably facilitated by the Parliamentary Business Division in my office.

Mr Chairperson, in order to further improve this function, in the 2010 financial year, the division will introduce three new programmes to deal with co-ordination, performance and planning of Government Parliamentary Business coming to this House. The Government and all well-meaning Zambians understand and appreciate the importance of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU). Therefore, in order to consolidate these successes that the country had made in the area of disaster management, the Government, during the coming financial year, intends to bring to this House the National Disaster Management Bill whose objective will be to create the legal framework within which all disaster management and mitigation activities will be undertaken by all stakeholders.

Mr Chairperson, may I also take this opportunity to inform this august House that the Government has, through my office, established provincial disaster management offices in all the nine provinces of the country. This is aimed at taking disaster management and mitigation activities closer to the people through strengthened capacities at the provincial and district levels in order to make them more effective and responsive to the needs of vulnerable communities.

Mr Chairperson, the measures above underscore our resolve to re-align ourselves as a nation from disaster management. A reactive approach to disaster risk reduction calls for a proactive approach. To this effect, the Government has appointed disaster risk reduction focal points persons in all line ministries to facilitate mainstreaming of disaster risk reduction activities in all sectors of the economy.

Mr Chairperson, in light of the important activities that my office, through various departments has outlined, I urge all hon. Members of this august House to support the estimates of expenditure for this office.

 Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you fro affording me the opportunity to debate on the vote for the Office of Vice-President. Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief.

Mr Chairperson, my concern is on the allocation under the Office of the Vice-President, Particularly, in reference to the DMMU. I need some assurance from His Honour the Vice-President that the disasters that have been brought forward, which is the damage to bridges, roads and so forth, have not been captured under this K8,137,718,172  billion.

I hope these have been distributed to other ministries like the Ministry of Works and Supply. These are known factors which need to be repaired and included in this estimate. However, looking at the figure that was authorised in 2009, which was K7.8 billion, and the estimates in the provided in the 2010 Budget, which are K8.1 billion, where is damage brought forward from last year? In my view, this provision appears to be inadequate and we are heading for the rainy season and disasters come in and out every year within our society and our country at large.

Therefore, I am saying that the provision is insufficient because I believe this sum is not taking into account the disasters brought forward.

Sir, I would like the Vice-President to clarify this because we will end up with an accumulation of disasters and this means that the infrastructure of this country will continue to run down. Some of the bridges that were washed away, last year, are so strategic in certain areas that either school children cannot pass, communities cannot go from one area to the other or are unable to transport merchandise or agriculture produce. Hence, there must be a provision for these things.

I hope that His Honour the Vice-President will come forward and clear this issue for the benefit of my colleagues and I.

Other than that, I would like to ask the House to support this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Chairperson, I will also be very brief.

In supporting the Vote on the Office of the President, I would like to mention that just like the Office of the President, the Office of the Vice-President is very important. However, my concern is that in the past three years or so, I have observed that these offices have not been receiving increments in the amounts that are allocated. I hope that, in future, we will consider this because these offices are very important.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: It is important that they are adequately allocated resources. We know that the Office of the Vice-President deals with resettlement of the people in case of a disaster.

Mr Chairperson, secondly, I would like to appeal to the Vice-President and hon. Minister of Justice over people who are constantly attacking the presidency and vice-presidency. In the past, we have had people taken to court for defamation. What has happened to these statutes? Can we look in the books to see what can be done about this?

Mr D. Mwila: Off side!

Dr Puma: In real life, when someone is being disrespectful, it is important to ukumutinya …

Laughter

Dr Puma: … so that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Dr Puma, speak a language that is allowed in this House. I am getting a little bit worried and you are part of the Executive, but the way you are debating seems not to be in line with the practice.

You may continue, but bear that in mind.

Dr Puma: Much obliged, Mr Chairperson. The point I am trying to make is that, it is important that for these people who are disrespectful to leadership to know that there are statutes and books that can be used to ensure that they are brought to book so that the respect the country owes the President is restored. If this continues, you will find that even those that are respectful will think that disrespect is the normal way of living and will start also ushering statements which may not be very good at local and international levels.

Sir, just to mention a little on the issue of trips that are carried out by the President and the Vice-President, I can imagine the President sending a Deputy Minister to a meeting for presidents and vice-presidents and this information filters through that we, as a country, are trying to save. What perception would the whole world have?

Laughter

Dr Puma: I think it is important that these offices are given adequate resources so that they are able to travel and make sure that the country is served well. There are many international meetings such as the African Union (AU) and Southern African Development Community (SADC) summits that our President needs to attend. It would not be good to have a label marked ‘President’ in his absence in the name of trying to save.

Mr Chairperson, finally, with those very few remarks, I wish to appeal to all the hon. Members to support this budget and also ensure that, in future, there is an increment.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief in my debate.

Sir, looking at this important Office of Vice-President and with the inflation that is going on, it is amazing to note that the allocation under it has gone down, from K21 billion, in last year’s, budget to K20 billion in the 2010 Budget. I realise that our resources are extremely limited and the hon. Minister has a lot of problems trying to fund this office. However, among the important activities in this office, apart from that of helping the President run the country, there are issues of disaster management and resettlement and these are important for the people. Therefore, it is a little difficult to appreciate how His Honour the Vice-President’s Office is going to manage these things.

Sir, let me also echo the sentiments that have been made by a few of our colleagues who have debated on this Vote. We seem to be developing a culture, here, of not respecting one another. When I spoke during the debate on the Motion moved by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning’s, Budget Speech, I implored colleagues that we should do away with the culture of trying to bring each other down. Nobody is elected to this House to come and try to bring somebody else down or insult because they are going to be rewarded since they have been shouting the loudest and insulting the most. What we expect is that you are going to produce results in your constituencies.

Hon. Member: Yes!

Dr Machungwa: I am not very sure if it means that if I insult the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development or the Minister of Education then people in my constituency are going to be very happy, and yet I go there empty handed. It is also at national level.

If you are a child of a family and you are always calling your father a drunk and always shouting at him on how lazy he is wherever you go, day in day out, what do you think others from the outside would think? Now, we want to develop this country and so we want when we have gone, to leave it in good hands. Even if it is not in goods hands, at least, we must leave it in a state that those who take over can be proud and say they inherited something good. However, if we destroy our own institutions by focussing on each other and not try to encourage each other to perform, what are we going to inherit? It is sad.

Sir, I have been to different countries in the world and I have had an opportunity to study and live abroad and during my time as minister, I had a chance to travel. I have never come across a country where a Head of State is always being called invectives and insulted all the time with the Vice-President even from hon. Members of Parliament themselves who should know these things better. Perhaps, some of those people out there may be forgiven because they do not understand, but, of course, some are just malicious. As a country, I do not think we will make much headway. Even when we go to meet our neighbours to attend international meetings, if they have read about how the Vice-President and President cannot do this that everyday, it is unfortunate.

Is it humanly possible that every single day, somebody gets everything wrong? I do not understand this and yet we seem to be championing that.

Mr Speaker, I have been in this House for eighteen years now and the phenomenon I am seeing here is alien where we are trying to undo each other by insulting one another. I have been elected four times by the people in my constituency, not because I have been insulting people, but because even when I was on the Backbench, I have been working with others, including those who have not been fair with me by the way they handle me. But I recognise the fact that maybe this is their time because we hold these offices temporarily after all, but at least, I have respected the offices.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to implore our colleagues that even after this side takes over, if we ever do, we will need to be respected. You cannot go to another country and be a head of state and everybody is saying, “Look at what we are seeing in your country”. If they cannot respect you, how is that person going to command respect? It is incumbent upon us, as leaders, because we are leaders in our own right, to set an example. The personality of each one of us is different, but if you laugh very loudly and you think that you have to laugh very loudly even if it does not work, I do not think it is right. We should not imitate, but learn and emulate the best practices which will work. We should not get into a situation where, as a country, we become a laughingstock.

Mr Chairperson, when we travel, people ask what is happening because they read these things. They even ask whether there are problems in the country. It is important that we review our laws as my colleague, the hon. Deputy Minister has said. If someone insults you, even in a village you can go to a chief and something will be done about it. But now we are accepting what is going on. Even those who are supposed to guide, help, adjudicate and try to counsel people spiritually and whatever, are also now jumping into the fray. If I were a Watchtower member, I was going to say that maybe the end of the world is about to come. I do not believe that and all I am trying to say is that I fully support this budget for His Honour the Vice-President and wish that it were a little bit more because of the responsibilities that he carries, especially mitigating the impact of disasters which we cannot predict. The most important point is that we should work with each other, as hon. Members of Parliament, so that we can be proud of being Zambians and not to have people asking what is happening in the country everywhere you go.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to join others in supporting the vote. This office does not only deputise the presidency, but it also has extra functions and the core function is the role of managing disasters in the country.

Mr Chairperson, looking at the allocations, in particular on the issue of disaster management, like all my colleagues who have spoken before me have indicated, we note that all the figures have reduced. I also notice that the whole budget has been reduced. These are the issues I always talk about.

Mr Chairperson, whilst we appreciate the reductions, sometimes as we reduce, we must first look at what we are reducing and what we are increasing because even after we have made some reductions on disaster management, I note that there are certain areas where we have increased the allocations I would have thought that the Resettlement Department and Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit should be the areas where we should have maintained the same figures or increased them despite the difficulties that we are facing. I am saying this because we have been told that with the global warming, the climate will not be the same. The effects are that we can be faced with any disaster, maybe, a flood or some disease of some kind. As we plan, we should take into consideration what has happened so far. We have faced a lot of disasters and the recent one is the one which happened in Shangombo last year.

Mr Mubika: This year.

Mrs Masebo: This year? If this is anything to go by, and if the situation repeats itself, what will happen to those people? With this budget, it means that we are just going to end up in a crisis where we will start moving money from other areas, instead of taking the necessary precautions now. Whilst it is appreciated that certain lines should have their allocations reduced, we should look at which ones so that we do not do it wholesomely.

Mr Chairperson, on the same issue of disaster management, I would like to also advise that, maybe, it would help the Vice-President’s Office if they looked at the Decentralisation Policy in as far as disaster management is concerned. I see that we are trying to establish a number of offices under the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department and yet we can decentralise some of those functions in the already established offices in the local authorities by capacitating the offices.

Mr Chairperson, this idea of each Government department trying to get to the various levels of the country by actually establishing new offices when you have a tight budget does not help. The Decentralisation Policy articulates that some functions of the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department, under the Office of the Vice-President can work effectively through the relevant local authorities that may already have certain facilities and capacities. I have noticed that in terms of implementation, they tend to duplicate, at the district level, and obviously that costs a lot of money because you start establishing offices at that level.

Mr Chairperson, I now move to the issue of resettlement and I just want to bring to the attention of the Vice-President that in Chongwe, apart from the Kanakantapa Resettlement Scheme, we also now have the Mwanawasa Resettlement Scheme and I request the Vice-President to assist us with the relevant services like water supply and sanitation. I know that in the last two budgets, there was a small allocation to assist the Mwanawasa Resettlement Scheme to become functional by resettling displaced persons. I know that the Vice-President has not officially taken over the administration of the resettlement scheme, but I would like to request the Office of the Vice-President to consider allocating some money to this scheme and to also continuously help Kanakantapa because it is one of the resettlement schemes that seems to be doing very well in this country. I urge the Vice-President to take keen interest it the scheme because apart from the fact that people have been resettled, there is a lot of farming going on there which is helping to feed the nation despite their not having dams.

Mr Chairperson, if we had dams in Kanakantapa, we can have a resource to help other resettlements in the country.

Mr Chairperson, the last point was on the programme under events. I noticed that a number of events have been budgeted for such as the Secretary’s Day, Women’s Day and so on, but the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Programme is not there. I had an impression, listening to the Vice-President’s statements where he always said that this programme was being implemented and therefore, that there would have been some resources allocated specifically for this programme because it is a cross-cutting programme that goes a long way in reducing the burden of costs on health and, indeed, other important factors which, of course, will derive from a clean environment. This is because through that programme, we can also improve water supply and sanitation, issues of health through sports activities and so on. With those three points, I would like to support and agree with the previous debaters that we should be putting more money were there is a need.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support this Vote. In my submission to support this Vote, I would just like to look at an issue of respect of leadership.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, respect is based on quid pro quo principle. That is a principle that ordinarily we would say one hand washes the other hand. I have respect for my Vice-President. He is elected. It is finished. Therefore, we have to look forward to development, but if Raphael Muyanda steals K2 billion from the National Assembly of Zambia …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … and walks away with it in a bit of …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Muyanda, please, let us not go in that direction.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance. But, suppose Raphael is a perennial thief, he is sticky fingered ...

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: No, …

Mr Muyanda: … and in society we respect Muyanda …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That reference to thief is not good. Can you make your point without mentioning the word “thief” because you might hurt someone. I am sure you are capable of doing that.

Mr Muyanda: I am much obliged, Mr Chairperson. The trend of social behaviour of humans is to respect each other. In that process, if I respect my colleagues, I also expect them to respect me. That is basic. If I scream at the former Head of State that my people in my constituency are starving for not being paid and no action takes place, surely, do you expect me to keep quiet? No, I will not keep quiet.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Muyanda: I do not believe in insults, excuse me and hear me right. I do not know your definition of an insult. If I said, I would like the people of Maamba Mine to have their arrears paid, that is not an insult. No. if you perceive that as an insult, then you are merely being defensive and a Government that is defensive merely shows failure to deliver the services to the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! And deserve no respect.

Mr Muyanda: How many times have I been in some of these Government offices? Our dear colleagues, who should respect us when you go to their offices, you are merely told, “Ah! Honourable, sit down here. I am busy. I am on my way to State House. You will remain waiting, languishing with the Permanent Secretary who will not even help you in any way. And that is a fact. This is an honourable, a member of a wing of Government. When we go to our colleagues with our respect in our bags, we expect the respect to be reciprocated, but that is not what is happening. They even ask like I am going to ask questions like “where is the money which was left or carried over from the Disaster Management and Mitigation Department (DMMD)?” In Accounts, Basic Bookkeeping has an opening balance and a closing balance. It is so simple and it is not complicated.

Hon. Opposition Member: Balance brought forward.

Mr Muyanda: Balance brought forward. Where is the money that was not expended in the previous year without meeting the disaster targets? Has it been brought forward in the Budget? If Muyanda asks such a question, is that an insult? No, it should not be perceived as an insult. I am merely executing my duties of a Parliamentarian. I am an efficient Parliamentarian who is responsible for the overseeing the operations of the Executive. That is what we are supposed to do and that is what we are merely doing.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, I think this is a simple and straightforward language. As we support this Vote, I would like to emphasise that the Office of the Vice-President Head of State should intervene. We have a problem in Maamba Mine, the workers have not been paid. Therefore, may the Office of His Honour the Vice-President, with due respect, kindly intervene by paying these workers? We are now releasing the Budget and these are the funds we are talking about. May you please release money to pay the employees of Maamba Collieries, who have not sent their children to school, while others cannot even go to hospitals and others do not even know what a salary is.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muyanda: Yes, they have not been paid for six months, is it just because you employed your own relatives there as Managing Director, and yet he is not a technical person. That is not right and I am not insulting, but you are murmuring. If your own relatives were not paid would you be happy?

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, is that good? I am appealing to the Vice President through the DMMD, to appreciate that there is a disaster at Maamba Mine, where you employed a person without technical skills to become a Managing Director of a Mine. You need either an etiologist or mining engineer or anyone with mining technical skills to be Managing Director at the mine, but you employed such a person. That way, you can run a country and see the results, but look at the disaster which is there. It needs immediate intervention and it needs the DMMD to go there and restructure the mine and put it in a working order. With this in mind and I have been saying that clearly and I hope the people of Maamba Mine are listening that, once again, this case has now been shifted to the DMMD under the Office of the Vice-President.

Mr Chairperson, I hope His Honour the Vice-President has heard.

I thank you, Sir, for allowing me to debate.{mospagebreak}

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate on this Vote. I stand to support the budget for the Vice-President’s Office. While I support it I just want to zero in one concern which is that this is an office that has been mandated to address disasters that are in our nation in this country. However, I also wish to register that since this is a very busy office, the money that has been allocated is not enough considering the fact that some of these disasters are created by some of his hon. Ministers.

Government Members: Aah!

Mr Sing’ombe: We have so far created two disasters in the Southern Province and I think we are yet to see more disasters in other provinces. Looking at the amount of money that has been allocated to this office, I do not think the Vice-President and Minister of Justice will be able to address all of these problems.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that this office is busy trying to resettle people in Sichifulo and probably in Mumbwa. I have been to the office of the Vice-President and I know how busy it is. Therefore, with this allocation, I do not think this office will be able to address, especially, man-made disasters that fall under the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources and specifically, under hon. Mwangala’s office.

Mr Chairperson, as Hon. Muyanda and Hon. Hachipuka have said, some bridges that have been washed away by heavy rains in our constituencies have not been worked on. However, looking at this allocation, I do not think even next year we will be assisted. I would like to specifically refer to the Chizulu Bridge which I have always preached about in this House. This bridge is a lifesaver because it connects my constituency to Macha District. It has, however, been neglected for so many years and I wish to request the Office of the Vice-President to, at least, look at this bridge which is a lifesaver. We have no hospital in my constituency and we depend on Macha District.

With these concerns, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, I also want to support the vote and in doing so, I want to make a few comments on how those of us in leadership perceive public offices such as that of Republican President and Vice-President.

Mr Chairperson, as someone who has spent much of my time educating young men and women, many of whom are now mature, I find it very disheartening and disappointing that even some hon. Members of Parliament, who should fully understand and appreciate social responsibility, get derailed, sometimes advertently, in demeaning the very offices they aspire to acquire. That is not right. I think we should set precedents for posterity because once upon a time, we shall occupy these same offices. How shall we respond to those who are going to demean us? Respectability is a responsibility that every one of us must very strongly guard and protect because we may be in those offices and it will be very bad for people to call us names and so on and so forth. This culture is an embarrassment to the outside world.

Mr Chairperson, I, however, want to say that Zambians are now reacting. They cannot come to the Floor of this House and talk like I am talking now, but as we interact, others are now questioning if this is the new culture in Zambia. They wonder if this is now the etiquette in Parliament and where the Standing Orders are. This calls for review of parliamentary etiquette and the Standing Orders if we have to maintain our standards as a Parliament that is reputable and has set standards for southern Africa. All of our neighbours were trained by this Parliament and now they are more respectable than we are. This is unfortunate.

Mr Chairperson, as I support the vote for the Office of the Vice-President, I also want to remind this office that Luapula Province is very well endowed and I think it is high time we accomplished the Government’s intention on resettlement schemes, particularly the Matanda Resettlement Scheme, which was started some two years ago. At the moment, there is a dire need to construct a bridge across the Mansa stream so that settlers who have moved into that area can access farming inputs and building materials from Mansa. We tried to do this using Constituency Development Funds (CDF), but the Road Development Agency advised my office that it was a very costly project that we could not implement using CDF.

Mr passionate appeal to the Government is that although there has been a reduction, which I think may be justified, there is a need for this resettlement to also be considered because people that have moved in that area need roads and water in terms of wells and boreholes so that they will be encouraged to stay there.

I would like to invite the Office of the Vice-President to also consider establishing a farm block in Luapula Province. We have vast lands which are virgin, and the climate and soil is very conducive for farming. The people are very co-operative and ready to welcome people to develop our area.

Interruptions

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, much as people have sung songs about the Decentralisation Policy, I feel some councils still do not have the capacity to undertake certain responsibilities that we say must be relegated to them. Having served in the Government for many years and appreciated how the system works, I would like to say it is right to strengthen district offices through funding. It is true that councils have their responsibilities in terms of service provision, but I think it is also important that we strengthen the office of the district commissioner. We used to call them district secretaries. Given that responsibility, in terms of capacity and financial muscle, I think issues of disaster management will be done very well, but there is a need to also expedite action on policy implementation.

Mr Chairperson, a lot has been said by colleagues who have debated earlier, but I thought I should passionately mention that we deserve respect. I think those who insult more, invite more insults and as we point fingers at others saying, “You fool”, and I hope that is not unparliamentary, we should realise that four fingers are pointing back at us. That is the true situation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have to move on. We seem to be having the same things on our minds. Most of those who have spoken are saying almost the same thing. I will, however, give a chance to one more Member to speak before His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice concludes.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. I want to discuss the Woodlands Resettlement Scheme which is at Kabuyu. The people there have been settled there for many years now, but they cannot access title deeds for their property. They have come to Lusaka several times by sending a committee or coming individually, but they have problems accessing title deeds for their properties. The resettlement is expanding and water and roads are needed. I am pleading with the Office of the Vice-President to look into this issue so that the people in that area can live comfortably.

Mr Chairperson as regards the people of Sichifulo, we do not know what is happening, taking into consideration the fact that this is October and the rains are around the corner. Where are we going to cultivate? Are we also going to spend this year along the Sichifulo River? If they are going to be resettled, time is running out and if they are going back to their areas, still the time is running out. We need to be told the direction the Government is taking because time is not with us.

Mr Chairperson, we need to decentralise so that councils can look after themselves. At the moment, councils have no capacity because they have no funds. No expert can go and work in a council where they are not paid for two to three years. However, if they are given enough funds, educated and qualified people are going to work in councils. Therefore, let us not use the excuse of having no capacity because by not funding the councils, we are making it impossible for councils to have capacity. Please, can we fund the councils so that qualified people can work in our councils?

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, thank you for the overwhelming support on this particular vote.

Hon. Hachipuka talked about the need to budget separately for the infrastructure which was damaged due to previous calamities such as floods. Some of this work is done through the provincial votes. It is also done through the Ministry of Works and Supply. However, I agree that we should also budget separately for some of these developments under the vote for disaster management. I have taken note of that particular suggestion. In fact, we are undertaking reforms and as I said, we will bring legislation here where we will create a trust fund disaster management and mitigation fund so that we can manage disasters in a more proper manner.

As regards Sichifulo, Hon. Musokotwane, you should visit your constituency, you are not aware that we have already moved into Sichifulo and we have taken some emergent measures to try and resettle the people. We are taking very serious measures and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit is already on the ground, including the Department of Resettlement. We are looking into that issue very seriously so that we can address it.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 02/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 02/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 02/05 − (Office of the Vice-President − Disaster Management and Mitigation Department − K8,137,718,172).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 03 − Rehabilitation of Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit Offices K101,000,000. May I have clarification from the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, last year we had K110,000,000 on rehabilitation of the Disaster Management and Mitigation offices. Again, this year, we have K101,000,000. Why has the allocation remained the same?

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, it is a continuation of programmes as His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice said in his policy statement, that we are going up to the districts from the provinces. So this is on-going work.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 02/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates

VOTE 03/01 − (National Assembly − Headquarters − K175,885,302,412).

Vote 03/01 ordered to stand of the Estimates.

VOTE 04/01 − (Gender in Development Division − K14,558,345,373).

The Minister of Gender in Development Division (Ms Sayifwanda): Mr Chairperson, I want thank you for the opportunity to present to this august House the estimates of expenditure for the Gender in Development Division (GID).

In the past, the estimates of expenditure for GID were presented under Cabinet Office by His Honour the Vice-President. The Government has now allowed GID which also provides secretariat to the office of the minister and Deputy Minister of Gender and Women in Development to be an accounting head.

Mr Chairperson, the mission for GID is to co-ordinate the implementation of the national gender policy which was approved by Cabinet in March, 2000.

Mr Chairperson, the division facilitates research and resource mobilisation for the implementation of the national gender policy framework and developmental programmes. GID is also charged with the task of liaising and networking at the national, regional and international levels on gender issues. It also monitors and evaluates the implementation of policies and programmes to ensure gender responsive development.

Sir, the Government has designed policy interventions to the following:

(i) redress the problems associated with poverty, particularly women’s poor access to various productive resources. I hope Hon. Musokotwane is now happy;

(ii)  address the issues and concerns raised on culture, the family and socialisation;

(iii) redress the gender imbalances in all the sectors;

(iv) scale up activities aimed at curbing gender based violence;

(v) address the various constraints which limit women’s and girls’ full participation in science and technology mainly due to a weak education foundation in sciences and mathematics;

(vi) redress the gender imbalances which arise as a result of limited or no access to the media’s stereotypical portrayal of women and men’s images and lack or limited gender analytical capabilities among most media personnel; and

(vii) address the gender issues related to women’s poor participation in decision- making and low representation at senior executive levels in the public sector.

Sir, the key objectives for the Gender in Development Division are as follows:

(i) to facilitate the mainstreaming of gender into macro and sectoral policies and programmes in order to attain equity and equality in development;

(ii) to facilitate institutional capacity building in order to effectively deal with gender issues and concerns;

(iii) to initiate, improve and co-ordinate the provision and dissemination of information in order to increase awareness and knowledge in gender;

(iv) to facilitate the adaptation and application of regional and international instruments on gender to which Zambia is a signatory in line with national laws, policies and programmes; and

(v) to monitor and evaluate the implementation of gender and development programmes in order to establish their effectiveness.

Sir, having read the mission statement and key objectives for the Gender in Development Division, let me now connect it to the 2010 Budget activities. The 2010 Budget will support the following areas:

(i) to ensure that gender is mainstreamed in sector policies. The division will implement recommendations of the gender audit that will be carried out in the last quarter of 2009 in the ministries of Agriculture and Co-operatives, Lands and Education. Further, the division will in 2010 conduct gender audits in the ministries of Finance and National Planning, Labour and Social Security, Community Development and Social Services, Health and Justice;

(ii) empowerment and capacity building among stakeholders will be another priority area. The aim of the activity will be to improve gender analytical skills of critical partners and in the process mainstreaming them in development plans, programmes and projects. This will entail conducting the training of gender focal point persons in gender budgeting and gender statistics and training women entrepreneurs. The division will implement a grant to support entrepreneurs. The grant is meant to empower the women entrepreneurs who will be trained by GIDD through registered women clubs, co-operatives and associations. Let me also clarify that this provision is in line with the National Gender Policy of 2000 which seeks to create a development fund to promote women’s economic opportunities. Further, the division will also implement a gender bid for the Public Service institutions that are able to develop innovative projects on gender mainstreaming. The gender bid will work as a catalyst to enhancing gender mainstreaming in the Public Service institutions;

(iii) another area of focus shall be the monitoring and evaluation of the implementation of gender and development programmes. The operations of the gender sub-committees at various levels shall be strengthened through provision of monitoring and evaluation instruments. Activities, therefore, shall be undertaken in order to ensure that data bases with gender disaggregated data are established in critical sectors; and

(iv) The division will also focus on disseminating information relating to gender including research findings, legislation on gender violence, gender disaggregated information on HIV/AIDS prevalence and so on. Therefore, the division will run programmes on radio including community radio stations and television supporting the publication of articles in the print media on various gender and development aspects and disseminate the same programmes during international events such as the Commemoration of the International Women’s Day and Sixteen Days of Activism Against Gender Violence. I hope Hon. Muntanga will stop this.

Laughter

Ms Sayifwanda: Sir, it is my hope that the hon. Members of this august House, both on your left and right, will support the Estimates of Expenditure for Gender in Development Division in order to reduce gender inequalities and in turn promote women’s advancement which is necessary for equitable development. May I also say that this is the first budget for the division and I urge hon. Members to support it.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Sir, I am going to be brief. The hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development has elaborated very good programmes and projects, but the money that has been allocated to the division is not enough.

Sir, when is the Government going to create the Ministry of Gender? I want the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to answer this question. If he does not answer it today, I will still ask him on Friday during the Vice-President’s Question Time. Most of the pronounced programmes cannot be done by a division, but ministry. Why is the Government denying the women a ministry? Is it because we are women?

The hon. Minister talked about the programmes which will be introduced for girls to advance in mathematics and science, but that is a very expensive programme. How is the ministry going to do this? How many girls would need this kind of programme in this country? The girls programme alone can use about K2 to K3 billion of this money. I urge the Government to create a ministry for women because that is the only way these programmes are going to succeed. We have a Minister of Gender, but the money is allocated to GIDD. That, to me, does not make sense.

There are non-governmental organisations (NGOs) that are working hard right now to help girls improve in mathematics and science like Forum for African Women Educationalists of Zambia (FAWEZA). The Ministry must assist this forum because they are doing a commendable job by working with co-operating partners. After all, when girls qualify, they will work for this country. Without a Ministry of Gender, all the Minister’s programmes will be for nothing. We have discussed this ministry today and we will again discuss it next year, but I am sure she will not be able to tell how many of these targets will be achieved this year because she is not going to achieve more than three of them due to  inadequate funds.

We need a Ministry of Gender. The Bill on Gender Violence has disappeared from this House. We need a Ministry of Gender. Until we have a Ministry of Gender, these things are going to continue happening.

Sir, I did not finish my programme this morning because I went for the launch of a campaign against gender violence. It is a very good programme. However, without the Ministry of Gender, the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services will not manage to do good job alone. We need a Ministry of Gender. The term gender refers to both men and women. If men are clobbered, they are included in that campaign.

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The use of the word clobber is not parliamentary.

Mrs Musokotwane: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Well, if men are battered by their wives, they are also carted for in the Gender Violence Bill. The Bill is not only about women because we know that there are men like Professor Lungwangwa who are battered on a daily basis.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Professor is sitting very innocently there.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, we need a Ministry of Gender. I know that His Honour the Vice-President has answered this question as I have asked it several times before. Unfortunately, I will not stop asking it until we have a Ministry of Gender. As we always say, gender is about both men and women. This ministry will not be for women alone. There are those who get battered who can be going to this ministry. Right now, we are not moving where problems of women are concerned because we do not have a ministry. We need a Ministry of Gender and not a division.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Before Hon. Sinyangwe takes the Floor, let me just clear out one thing for the people who are listening to this debate on the radio. The reference by Hon. Musokotwane to Hon. Professor Lungwangwa being battered by his wife was a light moment. It was not a serious thing.

Laughter

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate this vote.

Sir, like my colleagues said, gender is about men and women. When we address gender issues, we must address them in the context of the place where we are because it cannot be addressed generally.

I will take an example of my cousins in Katete where they have a habit of taking young boys to herd cattle for five years for them to be given one head of cattle. When you go there, you will find big boys in grade one together with very small girls. When we talk of gender issues, these are some of them that need to be addressed. Those poor boys need to be protected.

Sir, we must also look at the plight of girls in certain places where they are expected to be married at a tender age. I would like to say that GIDD should be turned into a ministry. Why do I say so? It is because it is only in towns like Lusaka. It is not in the rural areas and one wonders whether the data we are given is correct. Even when staff go into the rural areas, they are just at the Boma and nobody knows what really happens in the rural areas. The people in the rural areas depend on people who are voluntary workers. You cannot control somebody that you do not pay and cannot tell them to do what you really want them to do and the pace at which you want that thing to be done. It would be better if GIDD was turned into a ministry and was decentralised.

Mrs Musokotwane: hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I say so because situations in every province are different and the problems that people face are different from one place to the other.

Mr Chairperson, when it comes to women in towns, we are always talking about their empowerment. However, what have I seen of late? Almost all our men are loafers. Are we not going to change the style and also look at the plight of men …

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: … who are supposed to look after the women and children?

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: Sir, when I go into my constituency, most of the men have lost their jobs. If you gave them something to do and empowered both men and women, then we would have a better country. If you just empower a woman as vulnerable as she is, a man who is not empowered will be taking it out on her and there will be quarrels and fights in that home everyday. Therefore, let us see to it that we empower both men and women.

Hon. Male Member: Very good.

Mr Sinyangwe: Let us have a revolving fund for women empowerment. Maybe this could be attached to the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) so that we can give these women something to do. The money must be repaid so that other women can also benefit.

Sir, another thing about women is that a woman is her own enemy. In most cases, though we complain, women attack each other.

Hon. Male Member: Yes!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I think that at the stage we have reached, we have educated the men enough and they understand, but do we understand what we are supposed to do? In this House, we are very few female hon. Members of Parliament. If a female hon. Member of Parliament has a problem here, the whole world will stand up with women themselves behind the men to castigate their fellow woman.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: What are we talking about? When are we going to grow? When are we going to have the numbers that we are talking about? What we are saying is that by the time we come back after elections, half the number of women who are currently in the House might not come back? Shall we ever reach 30 per cent? If we do not reach 30 per cent who are we going to blame? We must blame ourselves.

Just the other day, I was attacked by a woman  ...

Hon. MMD Female Members: Why did you not beat her up?

Mrs Sinyangwe: … and not a man. The men were protecting me, but it was a woman who was attacking me.

Hon. Male Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I think that, as women, we should also think seriously. We should not accept to be used by men. When a man asks a woman to go with him to do a silly thing, she just goes blindly. That is not the way we are going to develop this country. That is why I think that we need a lot of education. Adequate money should be given to capacity building so that the women we have are assertive, know their rights, and know when to say no and stand up for their rights.

Mr Chairperson, a woman can commit a similar offence with man, but the treatment for the woman will be different. For instance, how many men and women went to the National Constitutional Conference (NCC)? This woman here has suffered more than the men.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: We should look at where we are going and stand up as women. I think it is important that at some point we should have a unity of purpose as women regardless of where we come from and what party we belong to. We must stand up as women …

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: … and then people will see that we are really walking the talk. Other than just talking and turning our cause into an academic exercise. However, I should warn those men out there that despite what they do, there are some women who can stand up for their rights. I can stand up to them. Nobody will intimidate me.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe: I want women to stand up and fight back because if they do not, then they are not going to get anywhere. To my fellow women, today, it may be me, but tomorrow, it may be another woman if we do not fight. It is not a question of saying it is not me. We should stand up and fight even for this ministry. Let us support the hon. Minister to get what she needs so that we can move forwards.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on the debate on the Floor of the House and I will be brief.

Sir, in supporting this ministry, I would like to urge the hon. Minister and the Government, through His Honour the Vice-President and Minster of Justice, that if we are going to attain gender equity and progress among all sexes, it is important that more attention and resources are given to ensure that right from the start, the women folk receive the support.

Mr Chairperson, we have to look at the issues of maternal, neo-natal, child and infant health. Right now, in our country, we do not have adequate resources to support our women in that area. It is really a shame that a lot of women needlessly die in childbirth even when this not need be so if the resources and facilities are available. If resources are placed there, we will have healthy children and mothers. That will be a good start and they will be in a position to fight for their rights.

Sir, at the same time, there is something wrong with some of our traditional customs. In fact, it is not just traditional customs. Even in the urban areas, young women and girls are not allowed to advance themselves in terms of education or actualising their abilities and skills. Not only are early marriages allowed and rampant in rural areas, but also in towns. There is a movement now in the world that is trying to place a minimum age limit and a young girl cannot get married until she is eighteen years old. If we do not begin thinking about it here, the international community will eventually do it for us because they will put in place conditions that will bring in such legislation.  I would like the two hon. Ministers in that ministry to begin advocating for that. This is because, first of all, if girls grow up to eighteen, they are not likely to have difficulties at childbirth and this will allow them to go to school and attain certain skills that will help them advance in life. Therefore, I urge the hon. Ministers to advocate for that.

With regard to the issue of gender violence, about two years ago, we passed some very tough stiffened measures against those involved in gender crime such as rape, defilement and incest. Now, I do not know how much conscientisation of the population in the rural areas and everywhere in Zambia has been done to ensure that our people begin to report cases of rape and incest because the culture of silence is still there. You will find that in the areas and even in the urban areas, within families, a lot of these crimes take place, but they are not reported. What is the ministry doing about that? I would like the ministry to be a little bit more aggressive about this.

Sir, even the issue of 30 per cent representation in this House should be looked at. I know that this matter is being debated at the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). I think we could have even gone further because we are talking about thirty women on proportional presentation, but if the House is going to be 250, that is still a very small number. I would like to be able to come and help support women who are going to be much more aggressive about this.

I can see that one hon. Deputy Minister (Mr Sichilima) is shaking his head. No, things have to change. We have to ensure that our women take up their rightful places. Do you really expect Zambia or the world to advance if our women folk are not there? We would not have even been born.

Therefore, in supporting this division - and I am calling it a ministry because I am hoping that it would be a ministry very soon - I would like to urge the hon. Ministers to get involved in all these programmes that I am talking about. They should take an interest in terms of how much money, for example, is being given to the Population Unit at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. They should be actively involved in that because it goes to the issues of maternal health. They also have to advocate for the issue of girl-child education at the Ministry of Education. I urge all hon. Members of Parliament to support this vote.

Sir, I said that I would be brief.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor of the House and I will be very brief.

Sir, I would like to support this very important vote on gender and I have three issues to comment on. The first one is on the Act that has been pending for the last one and half years regarding gender violence. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to ensure that the Bill is passed before the end of this year.

Mr Chairperson, I will not dwell much on the issue of turning this into a ministry because my understanding of the 2010 Budget - and I would like to be corrected by the Vice-President and Minister of Justice or, indeed, the hon. Minister herself - is that there has been an improvement in that, currently, it stands as ministry. What I suspect is that there was a mistake, maybe, in the name because I see that the name is Gender in Development Division. I think they should have just called it Gender in Development as she is called hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development and she can now deal with her own resources through her Permanent Secretary. Therefore, she does not have to appear under somebody as was the case in the 2009 Budget. She is called hon. Minister and, so, I do not know what else we need in order for it to become a full ministry. I want to say that she is now a fully-fledged hon. Minister.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I would like to declare her a fully-fledged hon. Minister.

Secondly, I would like to comment on the Bill. As I have already said, we would like that Bill to be passed. There have been too many consultations, duplications and seminars about it. We are tired because we all know what we want. I think a lot of work has already been done and what we need is action.

Sir, my last point is on the issue that Hon. Sinyangwe raised. She said that women do not support each other. I would like to state that it is not true that women do not support each other. Generally, women do support each other.

Hon. Members: No!

Mrs Masebo: Speaking for myself, when I look at the voting pattern in Chongwe Constituency, I noticed that I was supported more …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: … by women than men.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You will make your point later.

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, just to recap, I said, earlier, that this vote is very important. I was happy to see that this time around the ministry is able to have its own budget and control it. My understanding is that this is a step towards creating a ministry for gender. I also said that the National Gender Policy should be finalised this year so that it takes effect, considering that there have been enough consultations among stakeholders. It is, therefore, necessary that the hon. Minister brings it to the House for finalisation.

Mr Chairperson, I also disagreed with the notion that women do not support each other and that they are enemies of themselves. Contradictory to this, general numbers indicate that women do support each other. I gave an example of my constituency, Chongwe. I had more support from the women in Chongwe Constituency, and I continue to enjoy it.  I do not have difficulties just because I am a woman. In fact, my fellow women support me more. However, just to give the other side of this debate, I personally feel that it is normally what you may call the elitist type of women or the half-educated ones who, because of competition and complexes, may have differences. Generally, you will find that women do support each other.

For instance, you will recall that when I was hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, I had a lot of support in this House from the womenfolk, especially the ones on your left, including the lady herself, Hon. Sinyangwe, who talked about women not supporting each other. She is one of women who, every time she stood up to speak, would talk about how hardworking I was and how my fellow women should support me. I recall that, at one time, she even got a bashing from her political leadership and was almost suspended for always supporting me.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, the statement that women do not support each other is sometimes used against us by the men. They turn around and say that they support us but our fellow women do not.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We even begin to think that other women do not support us when they actually do.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!
 
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the problem that this country has is that of a complex against women by the men. You will notice that even after saying that at least 30 per cent of women should be in decision-making positions, it is not the case. Sir, three out ten or thirty out of 100 or 300 out of 1,000 - I cannot go beyond this because I was never good at arithmetic - is nothing. I would like to say that we are failing to implement the required 30 per cent minimum number required of us. There is lip service about issues of gender in this country. It does not matter who is involved. I can stand here and say with confidence that there has been lip service from our men, especially those in high positions, whether hon. Ministers, Presidents or Vice-Presidents.

Hon. Male Members: Aah!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, you will notice that even when a board is formed, there will be only three women out ten members and the men will even say that they have done very well. You will never get a board in Zambia where there are seven women and three men. That is like a taboo.

Currently, our colleagues in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) are talking about 50 per cent of women to be in high positions. We have quickly signed and agreed that 50 per cent is fine just for the sake of showing that we support it. It is important for the President and hon. Ministers to travel outside the country on national duty. However, what is much more important is that when they come back home, they should implement what they have signed.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Do not just go outside the country and sign documents as hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, hon. Minister of Gender and Women in Development, President or Vice-President and give a lot of excuses when you come back home. We hear terms like “We need quality women”. These are terms which you do not use when it comes to men. Even just in this House, in this issue of quality, are we being serious when we start comparing women and men?

Hon. Male Members: We are serious.

Mrs Masebo: Let us be fair with each other. There is no need to talk about issues of quality women when choosing a board. You do not talk about quality when you are talking about men.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I, therefore, do not think that we are really serious, as a country, when we talk about gender equality in this country.

His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice is responsible for governance issues in this country and I know that he has been doing and saying a lot. However, what he has been doing and saying are two different things. I look at the results of what each ministry …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There are too many people talking.

You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chairperson, how many women are in this House? It is the same even in the committees. It is so interesting now that I am a back bencher. I am really enjoying myself because I am learning so many things. You would be surprised that even within parliamentary committees the men take positions for themselves, even when they are ill-qualified for the job. They cannot, even for a moment, say that a more qualified woman takes up the position. There is nothing like that. Just because they are in numbers, they have their day. These are the men that we have in this country.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: This is why I do not talk about gender. I just work hard as an individual.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Uli mwanakashi iwe!

Mrs Masebo: I do not care whether I am a woman or a man. I just tell myself to work hard. If I am going to wait for these men to put me in any position, I am just wasting my time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I want to appeal to the women to forget this talk about gender. They should just work hard, excel and do not wait for the men folk to take them anywhere. In any case, when I look at myself and then look at some of these men, I think to myself …

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, just look at them.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Masebo: Even the noise that comes from this Parliament, Sir, is mainly from the men and not the women.

Hon. Member: On a point of order, Sir.

Mrs Masebo: What point of order?

Even the highest number of points of order is from men.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, you will recall that, last time, when the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services was talking about creating a board, I asked him a very simple question: Now that you are forming a new board, can you consider 50 per cent of women on the board? This was a simple request, but you noticed that he did not answer the question even though I suggested that he finds a suitable woman to take over the position of chairperson. I have seen that most institutions that are run by women are successful. The Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), which Mabel Mung’omba is running, is doing very well. If it were a man running it, there would have been stories of plunder. Most of these men are only good at …

Mr Mulyata: There is no money.

Mrs Masebo: What are you talking about?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Why is the hon. Deputy Minister engaging the person debating? Listen. If you want to counter her argument, you will have your time. However, for now, she has the Floor. Let her tell us, men.

You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Any way, just wait, you will be shocked when you get a woman standing for presidency. You will be shocked at the votes because you will get zero as men.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Laugher

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support this particular budget. For the first, there is an allocation of K14, 558,345,373. This is a good start, but too little.

Sir, the Gender in Development Division should be a ministry for both sexes. I am a bit worried because it looks like we are restricting this ministry to women only. We tend to look at projects only for women. We should be talking about projects for both sexes. If anything, it is a ministry that should be given more money.

When you look at various ministries, they have a component for gender balancing. Yet, we see this component in the Ministry of and Women in Development.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! There is too much noise from my right.

May the hon. Member for Kalomo continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, we are not surprised…

The Deputy Chairperson: No! I have already ruled.

Hon. Government Members: How old are you?

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I am 60 years old.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I want them to understand that in the Western Province they have never grown any tobacco than marijuana. Therefore, this is the problem. Matokwani.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Therefore, we want this ministry to be given more money. The beating of either men or women happens. There are situations when men are really battered.

The hon. Minister referred to a particular beating and mentioned a certain Muntanga which I do not know.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: This Muntanga has been married to his woman for thirty-six years and he has never beaten his wife, not even a slap. I have never beaten her since she became my wife. Therefore, for him to refer to a Mr Muntanga who has been so good to his wife, is unfortunate.

 I know that women are very soft. However, there are certain things they do that I cannot seem to understand. You can find eleven women sitting and waiting for one man and in the process even end up getting married to him. Therefore, I find that type of association very difficult.

 Laughter

Mr Muntanga: I wonder how these women do not fight, and yet they have allowed one man to control them. I wonder why things happen like this. When I go into villages I ask such women why they cannot leave such men because I hate polygamy. However, they all say that their men are very good. We should get rid of this.

 Mr Kaingu: On a Point of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairpersons: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, you have seen that I am a very humble man…

 Laughter

Mr Kaingu:…and a good man for that matter. The Lord has blessed me with two wives.

 Laughter

Mr Kaingu: I am seated here quietly. Is the hon. Member on the Floor who has never beaten his wife, but he has been zipulaling his wife. What is kuzipula in English?

Laughter

 Hon. Government Members: Pinching!

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Kalomo in order to discuss polygamy in this House without consulting me …

 Laughter

Mr Kaingu: … who has been in this relationship for twenty-two years? I humbly request for your ruling. Is he in order to discuss polygamy without consulting me?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services is challenging the hon. Member for Kalomo for trying to talk about polygamy without consulting him. The ruling is that Hon. Muntanga is expressing an opinion. To that extent, I will ask him to be mindful of the fact that there are some hon. Members who are in polygamous marriages. Some of us who have parents who are Moslems have more than two wives. Therefore, the hon. Member for Kalomo has to be careful in his debate.

 Can the hon. Member please, continue.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for that ruling.

Sir, this is the problem with the Ministry of Gender in Development because men who have more than one wife would like to be consulted about issues concerning women. Already, it is a clear fact  that women become like prisoners.

 Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, all I am trying to say is that even with the support of  their women, they would want to impose themselves onto one man. All that we want from them is to be independent, able to withstand, show what they are made of and that they can deliver.

Mr Chairperson, there are women in this House who have proved that they can do certain things. They stood in the elections and they won. They did not cry foul. Therefore, this ministry should sensitise women and go further to encourage them to stand up and move forward.

Sir, I will be very happy to see a situation where women stop complaining about men who are not in employment. When a man is working and taking care of a woman, there is no complaint, but when it is a woman who is working and the husband is not, we hear all sorts of complaints. Some even question why they should feed their husbands. This is a question of gender. Therefore, women should not complain when it is time for them to feed their husbands.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga:   Sir, we are supporting this vote to increase from K14.5 billion to, maybe, K30 billion, but we would want men to be part and parcel of that money. This time around, women are getting jobs. Therefore, we would propose that, 50 per cent, but do not look down on men and say that now it is our time. There are certain negative pronouncements which I do not want to make mention of.

Laughter

Mr Muntanga:  Some women will even say, “I used to cook for you, but now you must cook for me as well.” The Ministry of Gender and Women in Development should go further and train women through workshops. By so doing, we will serve women they are forced into marriage for twenty-two year sitting with one man. We are supposed to…

Mr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member for Kalomo should take into account the feelings of those who have what you do not like. We have to be very careful. Let us not tread on other people’s toes.

Can you take a different line Hon. Muntanga?

Mr Muntanga: We will continue supporting women at the expense of others getting annoyed. I have daughters…

Mr Chella: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Again?

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, hon. Muntanga.

Mr Chella: Is the hon. Member debating in order to say that people should not marry more than one woman when we have more women than men? Who s is going to marry the others?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! From that point of order, I get the impression that we, as a House, have generally agreed that we should support women.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear.

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, we will be repeating ourselves if we continue debating this head.

Therefore, I will allow Mr Muntanga to complete his debate and then ask the hon. Minister to wind up.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue the hon. Member continue, please.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.

Sir, in the last debate, I stated that we needed a Ministry of Gender and Women in Development. After creating the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries, it was high time that we also created the Ministry of Gender and Women in Development. His Honour the Vice-President, we created the Ministry of Livestock without a budget now we have done the same by providing a budget for the Ministry of Gender and Women in Development without creating the ministry. It is the first time that we have had a division which has a controlling officer and has been given money. Since everything is in place, His Honour the Vice-President could bring a Motion for the approval of the Ministry of Gender and Women in Development before we adjourn sine die. This will enable it become a fully fledged ministry. The hon. Minister who is heading this division is a Cabinet Minister and, therefore, it is time we brought a Motion for the approval of her ministry.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Gender and Women in Development (Ms Sayifwanda): Mr Chairperson, I am overwhelmed by the support the Vote has received from both female and male hon. Members. The support has been great.

Sir, as Minister in charge GIDD, with my staff, it is my duty to ensure that we work hard to meet your expectations. All the issues raised are well appreciated and noted.

Sir, commenting on the Gender Based Violence Bill, I would like to assure Hon. Masebo and Hon. Musokotwane that it is not correct to say that the Bill may die a natural death. It is receiving its final touches. Hon. Members, as you are aware, we brought it here for consultation, but time was not enough to finalise everything. I can assure you that the Bill is definitely coming for approval to this House.

Mr Muyanda: Very good!

Ms Sayifwanda: Hon. Sinyangwe commented about women’s hatred towards one another and I can only say that it is on the ground and there is natural hatred amongst women. For this reason, we have sensitisation programmes on radio and television on the same. I would like to urge women to work together to build ourselves.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I would like to urge all political parties to adopt all the twenty-two female hon. Members of Parliament we have in this House so that they come back in 2011. They should be retained and I would request for more women folk to join us.

Hon. Female Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: We are ready in the MMD to accept those that feel are not wanted in their camp. Please, come to the MMD and you will be secured.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Regina!

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Chairperson, commenting on the creation of the ministry and as Hon. Muntanga has mentioned, by awarding it a budget and putting a controlling officer in place is already a sign that we are moving in the right direction. His Honour the Vice-President is listening and I know that our listening Government, under the able leadership of His Excellency the Republican President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, is going to do something about this.

Otherwise, let me not waste time because I have seen that this budget has received great support.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 04/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 04/02 – (Gender in Development Division – Economic and Finance Department – K6,978,118,500).

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 01 – Training of Women Entrepreneurs (15) – K139,326,000. Could the hon. Minister indicate to us how many women shall be trained and how that number will be distributed across the country?

The Deputy Minister of Gender of Women in Development (Ms Changwe): Mr Chairperson, we cannot really give a figure as to how many women will be trained, but under our operative arrangements, we shall definitely indicate.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, if they cannot give a figure then how did they come up with a budget since this is an Activity Based Budget?

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Chairperson, in my last ministerial statement, I indicated to the House that my office was going to train women in clubs, co-operatives and associations. Hon. Members, you know very well that this money is not enough. We are not going to train individuals, but groups.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 04/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 04/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 05 – (Electoral Commission – K118,341,086,922).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the Electoral Commission of Zambia 2010 budget policy statement.

The Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) was established as an autonomous body under Article 70 (1) of the Constitution of Zambia to conduct elections to the Office of the President and National Assembly. The Commission is also mandated to review the constituency boundaries into which Zambia is divided for purposes of elections to the National Assembly.

The core purpose of the ECZ, therefore, is to enable citizens elect their representatives. In addition to the constitutional functions, the commission has statutory functions that include the supervision of the local government elections and the performance of any other statutory function that the National Assembly may confer upon it.

The Electoral Commission Act No. 24 of 1996 provides for the composition and operations of the commission. The Electoral Act No. 12 of 2006 empowers the ECZ to enforce the Act, make regulations providing for the registration of voters, conduct Presidential and Parliamentary elections and look into election offences and penalties. Following the 2008 Elections, the commission undertook several activities during 2009 as follows:

There were four Parliamentary by-elections and forty-two Local Government by- elections have been conducted where vacancies occurred due to different reasons since 2008.

On strengthening the electoral process in Zambia, the commission, in 2010, with the help of co-operating partners, under the UNDP, will continue to address the areas identified by consultancies and, indeed, those from lessons learnt arising from the 2008 Elections. The issues being addressed include enhanced organisational effectiveness and efficiency of ECZ; a workable continuous voter registration system developed to increase the number of registered voters; revised legal framework that is, revising the Electoral Act, Code of Conduct etcetera and dispute resolution mechanisms and voter education and programmes.

Mr Chairperson, on district audits and collection of election materials and equipment, the commission, in liaison with the Office of the Auditor-General, undertook a countrywide audit of the election funds. There has been improvement in accountability of funds in most councils due to the accounting controls which have been implemented by the commission.

The commission also conducted a countrywide stock take of all election materials and equipment and those that required storage at the commission were retrieved from the districts.

On stakeholder interaction, ECZ continues to interact closely with the political parties, non-governmental organisations and other stakeholders to further improve the electoral process.

I now come to the 2010 Budget. On personal emoluments, ECZ requires competitive salaries and other conditions of service to attract and retain qualified personnel in order to effectively manage and develop human resources for the efficient operations of the commission.

On general administration, the commission will need to manage both human and material resources efficiently in order to derive maximum benefit from its asset base. The expanded fleet of vehicles has maintained upward movement in the cost of insurance and maintenance of vehicles. The commission will, however, capitalise on its own service bay to minimise the cost of maintaining the vehicles.

On financial management system, the commission has put in place an enhanced financial management system. The budget line covers the operations of the financial management system aimed at enhancing accountability, internal control and financial decision making.

On corporate image building, ECZ will continue to inform the public about its roles and functions as well as endeavour to improve its roles and functions and its public image to build and sustain public confidence in the commission and electoral process as a whole. It is in this regard that the budget line also provides for the operations of the commission’s Political Parties Liaison Committee.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I am not sure whether we are paying attention. These are issues on which we raise questions and so we need to be attentive. We can consult quietly, especially for those sitting behind His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice, because they may interrupt his smooth flow of ideas.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, it is in this regard that the budget line also provides for the operations of the commission’s Political Parties Liaison Committee.

On review of the electoral and related general legislation, the commission is continuing with its review of the electoral legislation that it commenced in 2006. There is also a provision for the enforcement of electoral laws and any petition hearings that may arise from by-elections.

On continuous voter registration, the commission intends to undertake continuous voter registration in compliance with the law that was passed in 2001 and to meet stakeholders’ demands and expectations.  In the 2009 Budget, the Government provided K5 billion which the commission used for preparatory activities for the exercise. In 2010, the commission is set to commence the actual registration and capture the estimated two million voters according to projections of the 2005 data from the Central Statistical Office (CSO).

On the enhancement of information management systems, the commission’s advanced election management information systems will require continuous maintenance and software upgrading to keep abreast with technological changes. On voter education, in compliance with the Electoral Act, the commission will continue to educate and inform the general public on the electoral process and commission’s activities. A provision has been made for the establishment of the first voter education resource and information centre in Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, I now seek the support of the House for the commission’s budget.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, in supporting this vote, I would like to say that ECZ is a very important body in our country because it determines the quality of the governance of our country and, therefore, the autonomy of such a body cannot be over emphasised.

Mr Chairperson, during election periods, there is no party in office and, therefore, the former ruling party and opposition party are at an equal footing and the commission must understand that. With that kind of platform, it is possible to have the best election outcome for this country. If the commission is compromised by a former ruling party at that time, then the outcome of the election is compromised and Zambians will continue to wallow in bad governance and the case of this country has been bad governance.

Our Almighty God has given us the best resources, but we have failed to tap these for the benefit of the people because of the bad outcome of elections. Most of the blame for this lies on the ECZ.

Mr Chairperson, ECZ must ensure that the will of the Zambian people is reflected because if they do not do that, they are betraying the Zambian people and that is costly not only to Zambians but themselves and the future generations. I would like to mention that the quality of our politics has gone down and so there is a need for the commission, during that period, to elevate the level of debate among political players. Now you really wonder who is drawing up the agenda for the country. The real issues that affect the people are not discussed during elections and so the commission must create an environment in which our politicians go back to issues and people are elected based on their ideas.

I remember that the Education Department of the ECZ has had a chance to speak to our traditional leaders, councillors and hon. Members of Parliament, whether they are Back or Front benchers. Everybody has had an opportunity to interact with the ECZ. It is also gratifying to note that even the people in the media have been given an opportunity to take part in ensuring that electoral regulations and wishes of the people are taken care of very well.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to add to what Hon. Hamududu has said in thanking the ECZ for ensuring that it gets ready for delimitation of constituencies and wards even before we finish our discussions at the National Constitution Conference (NCC).

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: This is very gratifying and it is because of having a hardworking Government that has a vision.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mabenga: Therefore, Hon. Hamududu is welcome. If he wants to come and join us, I will receive him wholeheartedly.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to comment on continuous voter registration. Many people have been crying and have been concerned about continuous voter registration in this country for a long time. However, we now see that in the Vote for ECZ, K70,400,512,000 has been allocated for this exercise. This is a very good thing because anybody who is eligible to vote can have the chance to register as a voter anytime. Of course, this exercise also continues with voter education attachments. This is another very important area where different stakeholders can be attached so that they are able to learn more about voter education and what happens in the ECZ. I realise that K568,000,000  has been allocated to this exercise. This is very progressive and therefore, I want to say that I support this Vote wholeheartedly and also ask my colleagues who are still making up their minds to also do so.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Chairperson, I will be brief in my contribution. In supporting the Vote for ECZ, I would like to express my gratitude and happiness at the amount of money that has, this time around, been allocated to the continuous voter education exercise. I note last year only K5 billion was allocated and it is gratifying to note that, at least, the Vice-President was able to give us comfort that this K5 billion was properly utilised.

Mr Chairperson, having said that, it will be important, if this exercise is to be successful, that there is co-ordination with the Department of National Registration which has also started the exercise of issuing National Registration Cards (NRCs) to Zambians that do not have these cards. I note that, so far, certain provinces have already had the benefit of the issuance of the NRCs.

It is also gratifying to note that bearing in mind that elections will be taking place in 2011, delimitation of constituencies and ward boundaries have been given appropriate attention. However, I am not sure if the sum of K7.5 billion that has been allocated will be sufficient. Be that as it may, at least, it is important that a beginning has been made. We know that a number of constituencies in this country are too wide to be properly manned by one hon. Member of Parliament. Therefore, it is important that the ECZ comes up with a very good exercise. Some constituencies in the Eastern Province such as Chasefu are too large to be manned properly by one person. I hope the ECZ will do an appropriate exercise so that people are adequately represented.

Mr Chairperson, it is a fact some money has been allocated for by-elections. My appeal to leaders of political parties is that some of the by-elections we are experiencing this time around can only be avoided if we embrace a culture of tolerance. This culture that is taking root in most political parties where we do no accept dissenting views is totally unhealthy for democracy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: We should appeal to our leaders to behave as good leaders. A culture has also emerged of not accepting the results of the polls. When we take part in elections, we must be prepared to either win or lose.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Some elections are lost because there is no direction in the campaigns. I am, therefore, advising that it is about time the leaders of various political parties became focused. Let them address issues and articulate what there manifestoes stand for.

Mr Hamududu: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Time is gone for us to listen to insults everyday. Where are we taking this country?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: I agree with Hon. Hamududu that it is important for the ECZ to take a lead. This is true, but the ECZ will not succeed if our leaders do not embrace a new culture of discussing issues and not personalities.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: I know that sooner or later a certain breed of leadership will get out of the political scene because age is favouring them very well.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: I hope those who will come up and take positions of leadership will realise that Zambians deserve a better leadership …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … and not a leadership that fights for space in newspapers only to insult other leaders.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Politicians can still make their parties popular by discussing issues and not insults everyday. We should be given a break.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Zambia deserves a break.

With these few words, I wholeheartedly support the Vote and I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I am trying to be gender sensitive and therefore, Hon. Masebo may speak.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): What are …

The Deputy Chairperson: Just debate.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to join my colleagues who have spoken before me in supporting this very important Vote for the ECZ. Indeed, without free and fair elections, we cannot have a developed country. In supporting this Vote, I have three points that I just quickly want to run through. The first one is voter education. I notice that the allocation to voter education has decreased from K398 million in 2009 to K142 million in 2010. I thought that we seemed to still have a problem of people understanding that it is important for them to vote if they are to elect the right leaders. Therefore, I feel that ECZ should spend a little bit more time and money on educating the people. Our people still do not even know how to vote.

We have heard people going to the polling station without carrying the necessary documentation. Even in the just-ended Kasama by-election, we heard of a number of people who were turned back because they did not know that in order for them to vote, it was important that they carried with them the necessary documentation. Therefore, voter education is very important and it must not be underplayed. However, I have seen that in the 2010 Budget, voter education has been reduced.

Mr Chairperson, I also would like to commend one particular Non-Governmental Organisation (NGO), the Anti-Voter Apathy Project (AVAP). It is one of the NGOs that have consistently been trying to educate the masses on voter education. I, personally, have always followed them keenly and I have liked their comments because they do not seem to be inclined to any political party. They always speak against the political parties whether Opposition or Ruling Party. For me, I think they are doing a commendable job and I hope we have more NGOs undertaking voter education if we want free and fair elections.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to commend the Government for the K70 billion on continuous voter registration. However, as I discuss the voter registration, I also want to discuss the delimitation. I see that in the 2009 Budget, we had zero allocation on delimitation, but this year, the Government has allocated K7.5 billion to the delimitation exercise and K70 billion to voter registration, which figures are quite substantial. My only appeal is that this money, especially the voter registration and in particular delimitation, be released quickly to speed up the process as we all know that delimitation takes a long time. It is not an easy exercise, and I know that already we may be late in terms of delimitating the constituencies into two, for example, Chongwe which requires to be cut into three due to its vastness and we may be late already for the 2011 elections.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Listen. I know what I am talking about. I have been in the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and I was part and parcel of these issues, therefore, I know that the process of delimitation takes very long. This is why I am raising this issue to the Government and I hope that both K70 billion and K7.5 billion could be released quickly and not towards the end of 2010 because it will not be possible for the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) to undertake the delimitation exercise. It is a lot of work and there are a lot of processes involved.

By the way, remember what His Honour the Vice-President told us in his policy statement that in the 2010 Budget, we are going to spend so much money on the National Constitution Conference (NCC) and other governance issues. Therefore, it also depends where we release the money early if, indeed, we are going to achieve the delimitation of constituencies. I am in support of that idea because, as I have said, Chongwe Constituency is too large. I have fifty-two polling stations and ten wards and have a population of over 250,000. It is important that it is delimitated into three constituencies.

The other point is on the issue of by-elections. Whilst I appreciate a by-election that is caused by death, I do not appreciate by-elections that are caused by expulsions from political parties or members resigning without giving proper reasons. As a country, we need to be serious. Agreeably, I know that democracy is expensive, but surely, why should one resign just for the sake of wanting to form a political party? If you are resigning, maybe, because you are tired of politics and you want to do something much better than becoming a politician, maybe, that would be fine.

Mr Chairperson, if somebody wants to form a political party, it is unwise to resign from your party or from your independent seat now and create a by-election for us as a country. It is better to wait until 2011 for you to decide because you will no longer be an Independent or belong to any political party. Let us be mindful of the fact that we have problems and priorities as a country. We cannot be wasting resources in by-elections. Look at the amount of money that was lost in Kasama both by the Opposition and the Ruling Party and this is a country where we still have children who are stunted because of poor nutrition.

Sir, I would like to appeal to my colleagues in this House to avoid unnecessary by-elections. For those who want to create political parties, wait until 2011 to create those political parties, and for those who want to expel their members, please, hold your gun. People were born differently and we must learn to be tolerant of divergent views. I know there are some people who are so jittery that they do not want criticism and do not want members who speak their own mind. People are different even in our own homes. For instance, where you have six children not all the children will be “yes mums or dads. You will have one child that may be very difficult, but that does not mean that you are going to kill that child or send that child away. Let us learn to be tolerant of divergent views.

Hon. Government Members: Not all the time.

Mrs Masebo: What do you mean, not all the time? It does not matter. It can even be all the time. If I am going to criticise you all the time, accept it because that is how I was born. If I am going to praise you, be happy because I was born to be a yes, yes and I will please you all the time. Therefore, the point here is to be tolerant and keep our members within our political parties so that we prevent these unnecessary by-elections. As for me, whether there is a Mr Mwamba or the Member who was here from Kasama Central, really, there is no big difference, the difference is the same.

Lastly, let me comment on ECZ, I think that …

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of Order, Sir!

The Deputy Chairperson: A Point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, my sister is debating very well. She has advised about by-elections to political parties, but is she in order not to extend her advice to these members who are cantankerous? They are abusing and insulting their political parties and that is why they are expelled. Is she in order not to extend the advice to the individuals also?

The Deputy Chairperson: I am not sure whether the word cantankerous is parliamentary, but all the same, Hon. Masebo, as you debate, take that point of order into account. Before, you take the Floor, let me also observe that I have been listening very carefully from the five that have spoken so far, and I get the convergence of views and therefore, I am determined that the debate on this particular head should be completed.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mrs Masebo: I will take that point of order into consideration. In doing so, I want to say that in the same vein, when I talk about parties and people being tolerant of divergent views, of course, I would also like to appeal to members of various political parties that in every institution, there are rules. For instance, I belong to MMD and there are rules that I should try as much as possible to follow. However, that does not mean because I have not followed the rules you must expel me. You can suspend me and bring me back later, but do not expel me because expulsion has serious repercussions on our Budget and on the lives of people of Zambia. Just wait until 2011, thereafter, you can kick out that particular Member or that Member will decide to quit. I thought that I should take that into account.

I was on the last point and this is on the Electoral Commission of Zambia, itself, as an institution. In his policy debate, His Honour the Vice-President said that ECZ is trying to build its image so that they can have public confidence. I want to say that ECZ, with all the difficulties they have had in terms of funding sometimes or attacks from both the ruling and the opposition parties, they have tried their best. Speaking for myself, I have confidence in the ECZ, especially that the women who have headed those institutions are women of high standing in society.

Sir, you will recall when I said that women have proved themselves in this country. The two women that have headed this institution have done their best. I know that sometimes there have been negative perceptions, but we may not have enough information on the role of the ECZ vis-à-vis the challenges that it faces in terms of resources and capacity and so on. However, I think it has tried to do its best as an institution and we all have a role to play. What Hon. Mabenga said is true that the problem we have is we see criticism only when we lose, but we keep quite when we win which means we are okay with the situation. What happens is that when someone loses, the ECZ is not okay, but they do not complain when they win. For example, the UPND in Southern Province won the by-elections and they are very happy. They have no complaints against the ECZ. The same goes for the PF. When the MMD won in Chitambo, they said the ECZ was the best. What I would like to see is both the Ruling and Opposition parties when they lose should continue commending the ECZ for a job well done. All parties should accept defeat. I think that way, we shall help in building the image of the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Sir, the other point is the issue of the Information Communication Technology (ICT) which was installed. I want the Vice-President and Minister of Justice to tell us what has happened. A lot of money was spent on installing the ICT equipment for getting results on time, but it has become a white elephant. We get results through fax machines or through a man travelling from Chipata to Lusaka.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: I want to appeal to the various political parties in the country to start educating their leaders that these machines work and there is no distortion of results. We cannot install equipment and then abandon in midstream after spending billions of kwacha and continue getting results through cell phones. Let us use the equipment that we installed so that we can get the results quickly.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Sir, there is too much noise.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are protected.

You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Sir.

The other issue that I also want to talk about is the composition of the ECZ. I think this is an issue that has been debated so many times. I also want to say that maybe this is an issue that can help build confidence in the Government and indeed the National Constitution Commission (NCC) can look at it because we cannot continue with this business of having so many petitions when results are out. I have noticed that there is no provision for petitions in the 2010 Budget. It is zero kwacha on petitions in the Yellow Book unless there is another vote somewhere. This tells us that we do not expect many petitions even in the by-elections. The confidence that the people have in the system is what determines there course of action. If people have confidence in the process, when they lose, they will accept the result and will not go for petitions. Now it is very fashionable in this country for people to go for petitions just to waste time and resources and the whole process of judgement takes long and so on. I want to say that until we begin to build confidence in our own institutions, the issue of petitions will also continue.

With these few remarks…

Hon. Members: Ah!

Mrs Masebo: … I want to say that I support this vote. I also want to appeal to the ECZ…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Sir, I think this vote is not controversial. Most of the debaters have supported the vote. We agree that there should be delimitation of constituencies and this has been also been accepted by the NCC. It will help us reduce on the size of the constituencies. I have also taken note of some of the constructive suggestions which have come out of the debate.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 05/01 – (Electoral Commission – Headquarters – K118,341,086,922).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 5, Activity 01 - Short-Term Training – K1,209,893,100 and Activity 02 – Long–Term Training – K161,000,000. Why is the Government going to train officers in 2010 when there is nothing in 2009?

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 5, Activity 01 – Short-Term Training – K1,209,899,100 and Activity 02 – Long-Term Training – K161,000,000, this programme is required to meet the costs of undertaking staff training within the electoral commission in order to enhance their skills.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 7, Programme 8, Activity 04 – Delimitation of Constituency and Ward Boundaries – K7,500,000,000. Is this the total amount required for the delimitation of constituencies and ward boundaries in 2010?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, I can confirm that this will be done in 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

Nr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 7, Programme 8, Activity 02 – Petition Hearings. Why has the Government not allocated money for petition hearings?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, there is a legal department now to handle all the petitions.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 05/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_________

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

________

The House adjourned at 1951 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 30th October, 2009