Debates- Friday, 30th October, 2009

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 30th October, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_______

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, I wish to inform the House that following the football match which was held on Friday, 23rd October, 2009, at Edwin Imboela Stadium, in Lusaka, between hon. Members of Parliament and Diplomats accredited to the Republic of Zambia as part of the forty-fifth Independence celebrations, the parliamentarians defeated the diplomats by five goals to three ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: …and were awarded an impressive trophy, which will be added to the collection of the National Assembly.

I congratulate all hon. Members of Parliament who took part in this football match and those who were responsible for organising it. I hope that football matches of this nature will become a regular feature of our independence celebrations. I want to place on record the appreciation of the National Assembly to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development for taking the initiative to organise this tournament and for providing the football attire to hon. Members of Parliament who participated in it. 
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Either the Captain or a member of the team will place the trophy on the Table of the House to signify current ownership of the Cup, which will have to be defended next year.

I thank you.

Mr Mukanga laid the trophy on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

______

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 3rd November, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

Head 10 Police and Prisons Service Commission ─ Office of the    
                             President;

Head 11  Zambia Police ─ Ministry of Home Affairs;

 Head 15   Ministry of Home Affairs;

 Head 12  Commission of Investigations ─ Office of the 
                                        President; and
 
 Head 13  Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 5th November, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Motions, if there will any. The House will then consider the First Report of the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. The House will, thereafter, resolve into Committee of Supply and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 14  Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development;

 Head 17  Ministry of Foreign Affairs; and

 Head 18  Judiciary

Mr Speaker, on Thursday, 6th November, 2009, the Business of the House will start with Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of the following Bills:

 The Income Tax (Amendment) Bill (N.A.B 29/2009);

 The Customs and Excise (Amendment) Bill (N.A.B 30/2009); and

 The Value Added Tax (Amendment) (No.2) Bill (N.A.B 31/2009)

Thereafter, the House will consider the First Report of the Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 20  Loans and Investments ─ Ministry of Local Government  
   and Housing;

 Head 29  Ministry of Local Government and Housing;

 Head 26  Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services;      

 Head 37  Ministry of Finance and National Planning; and

 Head 21  Loans and Investment ─ Ministry of Finance and 
                              National Planning

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 6th November, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. This will then be followed by the consideration of the First Report of the Committee on Economic Affairs and Labour for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Budget and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 27  Public Service Management Division;

 Head 31  Ministry of Justice;

 Head 33  Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
______

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, following the Government’s procurement of Road Development Agency (RDA) equipment, what impact has it created in the provinces compared to the past.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, this equipment is doing a commendable job in many parts of the country.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Of course, the limitation, which we are trying to address, maybe, through the current budget, is that of funding. With more funds, this equipment will go a long way in rehabilitating feeder roads. It is readily available and has been deployed in all the provinces of Zambia.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, following the Government’s shambolic handling of the fuel crisis, where even diesel is in short supply, would His Honour the Vice-President indicate to this House how much the policies of interest rates, where servers are paid 1 per cent and borrowers have to pay as much as 33 or 35 per cent, have costed this economy generally and in terms of constraining growth and diversification.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, as usual, the hon. Member of Parliament is always very negative and wants to paint a picture which is non-existent in Zambia.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we, as a Government, are addressing the fuel situation…

 Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Speaker: Order! Do you not want to hear the answer?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Sir, we had an unfortunate situation, which the Government has addressed and the fuel situation is back to normal.

 Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: the Indeni Refinery is undergoing routine maintenance. Of course, if there are any short comings, we are looking into those. We know that diesel is very critical for the economy. Therefore, we are monitoring the situation. We normally have this kind of situation because of the closure of Indeni. It is, therefore, the intention of the Government to look into matters of this nature so that, in future, it can prevent them from occurring.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, now that the Budget estimates debate is in progress, I feel that my question is timely. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Government has any intention to bring a Bill to this House to enact a law that will compel the Executive to come back to Parliament and give us an account on how the money that we are approving now is going to be used at the end of the year.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the Constitution provides for us to come back and lay reports to Parliament in form of financial reports explaining how monies, which were approved by the National Assembly, were utilised. I also wish to say that, currently, we are drafting the Budget Act, which will come to this House. If there are any issues of a similar nature which can be raised and can be addressed through that kind of legislation, hon. Members of Parliament are free to raise them.

Sir, as I said, the Constitution provides for a financial report to be prepared and presented. The financial report is distributed to hon. Members of Parliament. It is a thick book and blue in colour.

Dr Machungwa raised the financial report.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: There it is. That is the book which we are talking about if you are not aware of it. That is the book which contains information on how the money allocated in the Budget has been utilised.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker,

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, given the fact that the issue of communication between Mongu and Kalabo has been very vexing for the people of the Western Province, I would like His Honour the Vice-President, based on the reports that the Government is developing two other alternative routes from Mongu to Kalabo, to confirm to this House and to the country at large that one of these routes is going to be the one which will go to Mongu/Senanga/Kalongola onto Kalabo. Furthermore, that we will also be seeing the construction of a bridge in this particular area to ease the problems of communication in the Western Province and, indeed, that, in future, plans of this road will go on right into Angola.

The vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Member for Livingstone for that question. The information I have is that the route will not change. This means that the same route between Mongu and Kalabo in the rehabilitation process and construction of the road will be followed. If there any bridges, we have to follow the same route. The Government is seeking finances for this particular route.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, while congratulating the Government for having tarred the first 84 kilometers of the road between Chipata and Lundazi, may I know when the remaining portion of the road will be tarred because it is agonising to drive on this stretch?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, rehabilitation and reconstruction of roads is a continuous process. We are looking for finances for various roads. Indeed, it is the intention of the Government that roads which have been started be completed in the near future. Therefore, we shall continue to work on the roads throughout the country as we are doing in rehabilitating roads so that we can have a road network which can promote economic growth.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether it is actually true that the price of fuel has been hiked and if that is the reason there was a shortage of fuel.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that issue has been clarified. The price of fuel has not been increased. It is the resolve of the Energy Regulation Board (ERB) to look into issues of increase of fuel or not. Therefore, the ERB has clarified that particular issue that there is no increase of fuel for the time being.

 I thank You, Mr Speaker.

 Mr Ntundu: Hear, hear!

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Speaker, according to Radio Phoenix News this morning, fuel prices were raised and that decision was reversed immediately. I wonder why. May His Honour the Vice-President assure the nation that there will not be any fuel shortage.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, as I said, that is within the jurisdiction of the ERB. They are the experts in the prices of fuel at the local and international level. As per our laws, they are better placed to determine what the fuel prices should be. Therefore, we will leave it to the ERB to guide us as I cannot give the kind of assurance that you are asking for.

I thank you, Sir.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, why did the Government opt to lay the optic fibre below the ground rather than using the Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) pylons which is a cheaper method?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the Zambia Telecommunications Limited (ZAMTEL) is an independent entity and the decision to lay this particular cable was made by its Board. This is one of the issues we are trying to address through the well conceived privatisation of ZAMTEL …

Hon. Opposition Member: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … in order for us to have communication which is reliable in this country. For this reason, it has been decided that there should be harmonisation of the infrastructure which is under ZESCO and ZAMTEL so that there is no duplication of this infrastructure.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Speaker, could His Honour the Vice-President inform us how much was used to bring in the 700 dancers from South Africa for the Independence celebrations and what criterion was used to select South Africa instead of Botswana?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I think it is malicious to suggest that 700 dancers were brought in from South Africa.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: How many?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The dancers who came were 200.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: 200 was the total delegation that came from South Africa.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The idea behind this particular visit to Zambia is to strengthen our relations.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We assisted South Africa in the liberation struggle and you know that South Africa now has a stronger economy than ours. Therefore, it is to our benefit if we can strengthen the ties.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I do not have the figures you are talking about, but, indeed, there was nothing sinister about that arrangement. We enjoyed the presentation by the people who came to sing here and the cultural exchange during the Independence celebrations was beneficial to us.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, a few years ago, experts from State House and other Government departments went to Kazungula District to see if it could also be turned into a multi-facility economic zone (MFEZ). The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was in that group and I can see he is updating the Vice-President.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: What was the outcome of that tour? We have not seen the report. When is Kazungula going to be an MFEZ?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is a very important project. Indeed, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning was in that delegation. We are conducting feasibility studies and waiting for the outcome of that feasibility study. When all the studies have been completed and its economic viability is ascertained and determined, you will be informed whether that project will proceed or not.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, Zambia is the only country in the south of the equator which has allowed its National Airports Corporation to run both air navigation services and airports services, hence its failure to meet the required international standards. What is the Government’s thinking on the operations of the National Airports Corporation Limited?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I do not agree that the operations of our airports, here, and National Airports Corporation do not meet international standards, hence the international flights landing at Lusaka International and Ndola airports. If our facilities did not meet the international standards, as the hon. Member for Mpika Central has suggested, that situation would not be there. Otherwise, we would, perhaps, have been banned or excluded from landing international plane in this country. So, that is not true.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, in 2005, the Government of the Republic of Zambia allocated K25 billion for payment of dues to the former Small Industries Development Organisation (SIDO) workers. Since then, these workers have not been paid and the case was taken to the court of law. Instead, the Government persuaded the plaintiffs to withdraw the case so that it could be settled outside the court of law. To date, these people have not been paid. What is the Government doing about their payments?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, for some companies that were dissolved together with the Zambia Privatisation Agency (ZPA) and were fused into the Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), there are some liabilities which the Attorney-General’s Office is looking into together with the ZDA; with the view to coming up with a scheme of arrangement so that they can be settled. Perhaps that is one of the debts which may fall under that arrangement. Otherwise, this is an issue which should not be raised without notice. Let us enter into correspondence so that we can give you a properly researched answer.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, in keeping with our responsibility of ensuring that Government assets are protected, I would like to find out from the His Honour the Vice-President what the Government’s plans are to ensure that the K8 billion that was used on the foundation of the rehabilitation of 25.5 km of roads in Kabwata Constituency does not go to waste in view of the fact that the contractor has since abandoned the work after having invested tax payer’s money amounting to K8 billion. Now, we have a risk of the rainy season which will wash away the foundation that was created. What are the Government’s plans on ensuring that the K8 billion is not wasted?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I know the hon. Member is trying to bring that situation to my attention. Indeed, where we have spent money, we should take measures within the terms of the existing contracts or arrangements between the Government and contractors so that those assets are protected and the interests of the Government are not jeopardised. Therefore, that particular issue can be looked into if I am given more details on it.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to know from His Honour the Vice-President when he is going to address the disaster at Kipushi Border Post where, at the moment, the officers there, namely; the police, immigration and the Zambia Revenue Authority officers are buying water from the street vendors from the Democratic Repulic of Congo (Congo DR). This is a security risk as there is no water, at the moment, at Kipushi Border on the Zambian side.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I can only take note of that informative observation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, since the re-introduction of multi-partism, there has evolved a culture of insults, boxing and denting the image of this country here and abroad. How is the Government trying to ensure that its policies, as a sitting Government, sink deeply in the minds of the Zambians in order for them to participate fully in national development other than being fed on contradicting views in both print and electronic media?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is a good and patriotic question.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, it is the responsibility of all of us to ensure that we promote the good image of this country so that investors can come to Zambia. If everyday, we are peddling alarming statements and portraying, to the outside world, that Zambia is on fire and that there is no stability there, people will not invest here. We shall try within our means to ensure that we portray a good image through our public media, but, as you know, we have a democracy and some of these people who peddle negative messages must refrain from doing so. All Zambians must rise to the challenge and show these people that we do not approve of what they are doing and that everyone should send out a good positive message.

Mr Speaker, that is all I can say in this democratic dispensation. I know that some people are determined to ensure that they portray a very bad image of this country. I would like to say that it is unpatriotic and one wonders whether some of our people are genuine Zambians. Some people are doing it for money and so it is a very complex situation for us. What we want to do is appeal to every Zambian to portray a good image of this country. I thank the hon. Member for that question.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya): Mr Speaker, I would like to know the situation with regard to the street kids who are terrorising people in the night and why they have come back to the streets after being taken to colleges for them to learn skills.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I have taken note of that situation and we have ministries that are looking at the interests of street kids and, of course, the police so that there is no crime on the streets. In a nutshell, all I can say is that we are looking at the situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out whether His Honour the Vice-President is aware that the Citizen’s Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), a well-intended Government programme, is not reaching the intended beneficiaries and that bureaucracy at the secretariat is rendering the whole exercise academic.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, yesterday, the Chief Executive of the CEEC was praised for doing a good job in this House. As far as we are concerned, the chief executive and the staff are doing their best by reviewing conditions pertaining to lending under the CEEC, but, as I have mentioned before, as a Government, we are also creating extra empowerment funds which can benefit the youth, women and the vulnerable. Therefore, I do not agree that the CEEC is not doing well.

Mr Speaker, it is a new institution and so we need to continue monitoring its performance so that, at the end of the day, the people of Zambia benefit from the programmes under the commission.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when Section 136 of the Mines and Minerals (Amendment) Bill of 2008 will be effected so that 40 per cent of the proceeds of the mineral royalty tax will be left at the place where it was generated and only 60 per cent is taken to the Central Government.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, indeed, that provision exists in the Mines and Minerals Act where which are producing minerals can benefit in terms of certain percentages. We are looking into this matter because it is just a matter of operationalisation of the Act. I cannot say for certain when that particular section will be implemented, but it is a matter that we, as a Goverenment, are looking into because we have provided for it in the legislation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, as I am talking now, the people in Bwana Mkubwa and in the country in general have been badly affected by the fuel shortage. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President if it was the normal annual plant maintenance at the Indeni Oil Refinery which caused the fuel shortage. When you say “annually planned” did you mean it was planned and if so, why is there this fuel shortage?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that was a normal routine maintenance. However, the breakdown of some equipment which had to be attended to led to the fuel shortage. However, we are attending to it so that the plant can start its production.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when the Government will resolve the issue affecting the United Bus company of Zambia (UBZ) workers who have stayed for a very long time without being paid their retrenchment packages after this company went under.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: To my recollection, that issue was resolved and properly attended to, but if there are any outstanding issues, you can bring them to my attention.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, could the Vice-President assure the nation that the K800 million which was allocated towards the rehabilitation of the Mulobezi Railway Line will be released and what would be the status of the current ownership.

The Vice-President’s time expired.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Dundumwezi will put that as a normal notice question. It is important.

_______{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

RP CAPITAL PARTNERS CONTRACT

160. Mr Lubinda (Kabwata) (on behalf of Mr Kambwili) (Roan) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) what value the US$2 million contract had awarded to RP Capital Partners added to the Zambia Telecommunications Company; and

(b) whether RP Capital Partners was paid and, if so, under which authority the payment was made.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, the contract between the Ministry of Communications and Transport and RP Capital of Cayman Limited to evaluate the Zambia Telecommunications Company (ZAMTEL) has added value to the potential sale of ZAMTEL by providing information on the actual value of ZAMTEL’s assets and liabilities that is required by the Government and investors interested in buying shares in the company. However, the Government did not award a US$2 million contract to RP Capital Cayman Island Limited.

Mr Speaker, RP Capital Cayman Island Limited was paid US$161,029.00 equivalent to K837,347,888.00 incurred in the valuation of ZAMTEL’S assets. These funds were paid under Vote 51/01/9/11 which will be valuation of Government enterprises in the Estimate of Revenue and Expenditure of 2009 in the Yellow Book of 2009.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, transparency is an important tenant of good governance and public assets such as Zamtel are the interest of all citizens. Could I find out from the hon. Minister why, to date, the valuation report emanating from this contract has not been made public so that the citizens know what value Zamtel has before it is offloaded.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the hon. Member, in his analysis of issues, portrays that he is an economist …

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: … and that he understands the technicalities of business transactions. If that kind of portrayal is correct, he should understand that in any valuation transaction process, no report is released to the public because that will jeopardise or prejudice the transactions process or privatisation process.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It is not an examination.

Mr Ntundu (Gwembe): Mr Speaker, this House was informed that the reason the Government chose RP Capital was that it would carry out the valuation free of charge.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Ntundu: I would like to find out what the shift is. Could the hon. Minister give the House the correct position on RP Capital.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, my recollection since this process started was that there was going to be a cost to the valuation process and the figures were given. I do not know where the hon. Member is getting that information from. Right from the beginning, there was a cost to the valuation process.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the engagement of RP Capital in this transaction has raised a lot of dust in the nation, resulting in many people inquiring on the nature of RP Capital. Is the Government concerned about the revelations as found on the internet as to the nature of this company, what they do and their make up. Is the Government concerned?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there are many things on the internet and if the hon. Members cares to check for his own name on the internet. He will find a lot of things written about him ...

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: … just like all of us. I am sure if each one of us, as hon. Members of this House, checked to find out what is on the internet, there will be some information about us and, therefore, I do not think it is prudent for us to go by whatever is on the internet.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

THE 2009 INDABA

161. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) (on behalf of Mr D. Mwila) (Chipili) asked the Vice-President and Minister of Justice:

(a) how much money was spent on hosting the National Indaba held in April, 2009;

(b) how many delegates attended the Indaba; and

(c) what the economic benefits of the Indaba had been to the Zambian people.

The Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s Office (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, the total expenditure on hosting the National Indaba held in April, 2009, amounted to K3,117,679,566.19.

The composition of the main cost centres included the following:

(i) conference facilities; the venue was the Mulungushi International Conference Centre;

(ii) conference documentation and materials;

(iii) attendance conference services; and

(iv) food.

The number of delegates who were officially registered to have attended the Indaba for the two-day period was 528 delegates.

Mr Speaker, in terms of economic benefits to the Zambian people, the National Indaba achieved its objective of developing actionable material and tangible recommendations on policy measures that the Government should adopt and implement in order to address the adverse impact of the global economic crisis.

The Government has, in this regard, put in place implementation strategy and framework to accomplish this task. This has been done with instructions given from the highest level at Cabinet through the operative lower actors to ensure that the Indaba recommendations receive serious attention and every activity proposed is auctioned to its least detail.

In doing so, it is envisaged that positive economic benefits will spur all facets of our economy, thereby benefiting the general public across the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I am sure the National Indaba had not been budgeted for. In view of this, I would like to find out what legal framework allowed the Executive to use such expenditure on behalf of the Zambians.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, that expenditure was within normal budget expenditure. There are budgetary provisions to cater for contingency expenditure and, therefore, that expenditure was within the laws of our country.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I just want to find out how many of the resolutions from the indaba have been implemented and which they are.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have presented all the recommendations to Cabinet and it will be going through them shortly. However, some of the recommendations have been implemented already. Examples are the recommendations relating to reducing the cost of doing business. Currently, there is an exercise going on whereby we are drafting legislations to reduce on the number of licences and reducing the cost of doing business generally.

However, as hon. Members heard from the Budget and President’s speeches, we will be drafting the Sixth National Development Plan and some of the recommendations will be included. So, this is a continuous process. A lot of good recommendations came out of the indaba. For the information of those who boycotted, there was intellectual discourse there. The discussions were very rich and this country benefited from the indaba deliberations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, one does not have to be a skyrocket scientist or economist to realise that undertakings such as the indaba, which are financed by public resources, are not only for the delegates at the event, but for the interest of all citizens. Could I find out from the Vice-President, therefore, why there has not been any report published for the interest of the citizens so that they know what intellectual discourse was conducted and can follow up on the implementation of those recommendations.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, for the hon. Member’s information, the deliberations of the indaba were broadcast publicly. Those of us who were following the deliberations learnt a lot. What we were discussing at the indaba was the global economic crisis. That is what sparked that particular event and as I said, the speeches that were made there were broadcast publicly and will still be considered by Cabinet. Therefore, some of the recommendations are already public knowledge.

As I said, we are implementing the Public Sector Reforms and there is no need to publish a report because the indaba was held publicly. The papers which were presented there are available if the hon. Member wants to access any of the documents. As I have already mentioned, at some stage, we will include most of these recommendations in the Sixth National Development Plan. Some of the effects of the global economic crisis have been addressed and, I think, we are back on course.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ntundu: Sir, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to be very specific in his answer on the money that was spent on the indaba. I am sure the whole House is interested in knowing. He has said that there are contingency provisions in the Budget. We are aware of this and one of them is under disaster management. So, can the Vice-President specify which contingency provision was used.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, there are various budget lines and contingency provisions is one of the specific budget lines, but there are also lines for business promotion. Therefore, it is up to the controlling officer, who is faced with a situation such as that one, to decide which budget line should be used. However, I do not have that particular information off hand. I can only confirm that the expenditure was within constitutional provisions of the Public Finance Act.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, if I remember very well, indabas have been held, at least, three times now. The former President, Dr Kaunda, when there were problems, called for some type of national indaba. The late President Mwanawasa called for an indaba and so has President Banda. What lessons are we learning from all these experiences so that, in future, we can avoid adhocracy and structure this in a manner that is going to be most effective if we need to use it?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the type of government that we are running in this country is a democracy, whereby we believe in consulting our people. Democracy is very costly. We also have the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) and the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) and, therefore, national indabas are there for us to consult our people.

If hon. Members attended some of these forums, such as the National Indaba we are talking about, they will find that there were a lot of good ideas which came out from there. Therefore, even in future, should it be necessary to hold an indaba, we will do so. There are a lot of situations which we cannot foresee and, at times, it is beneficial for the Government to consult its citizens. Therefore, we shall continue with forums of this nature, depending on necessity. It is important that we consult our people.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

___________

BILL

REPORT STAGE

The Supreme Court and High Court (Number of Judges) (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Report adopted.

Third Reading on Tuesday, 3rd November, 2009.

___________

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in
the Chair]

VOTE 06 − (Public Service Commission − Office of the President − K4,541,983,157).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present the year 2010 Estimates of Expenditure for the Public Service Commission (PSC).

Madam Chairperson, the PSC is established under section 7 (A) of the Service Commission Act No. 24 of 1991. Section 13 (6) and 21 of the same Act empowers the commission to make with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia regulations regarding its operational procedures and/or to confer powers or impose duties on any person or authority for the purpose of discharging its functions.

Madam Chairperson, the functions of the PSC are prescribed under Section 21 (1) (2) and (3) of the Service Commission Act as follows:

(i) make regulations for the appointment, including the power to confirm appointments of persons, to any office with respect to which it is charged with responsibility under the Act;

(ii) make promotions to such offices;

(iii) exercise disciplinary control of persons holding or acting in such offices;

(iv) termination of appointments and removal of such persons from office;

(v) prescribe the qualification for appointment or promotion to any post and such training courses shall be considered for promotion or maintaining efficiency;

(vi) sanction the transfer or secondment of any person holding any such office;

(vii) to act as an appellate body of the Public Service; and

(viii) provide advice to the President on policies and procedures for employment and for the conduct and discipline of officers in the Public Service.

Chairperson, following the completion of the restructuring of the commission in 2008, that saw its establishment expand from forty to forty-seven and the upgrading of several positions, the need for more resources to enhance the commission’s operations cannot be over emphasised.

The 2010 programmes and activities set out in this budget framework paper are aimed at enabling the commission to carryout its mandate in an efficient and effective manner given its limited financial resources.

Madam Chairperson, I now have the honour to present for the year 2010, a budget request by the commission amounting to K4,541,983,157.00, compared to the 2009 figure of K4,113,860,750.00. The increase is due to salary increments, which have resulted in an increase in personal emoluments from K1,830,913,461.00 to K2,223,418,685.00.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members for the overwhelming support.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 06/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 07 − (Office of the Auditor-General − K31, 860,864,905).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to deliver the policy statement on the Office of the Auditor-General. The Auditor-General, whose office is a public one, is charged with the responsibility of promoting good governance, accountability and transparency in the utilisation of public resources. It is the duty of the Auditor-General to audit and give an assurance that all the revenue that is collected is brought to account and that the moneys expended have been applied for the purposes for which they were appropriated and that the expenditure conforms to the authority that governs it.

Madam Chairperson, the principal functions and responsibility of the Auditor-General are set out in Article 121 of the Constitution of Zambia, the Public Finance Act, No. 15 of 2004 and the Public Audit Act, Cap. 378 of the Laws of Zambia. These statutes provide that the Auditor-General shall audit public accounts, accounts of statutory corporations and private institutions that receive Government subventions, including donor funded projects. In this respect, the Auditor-General conducts external audits on the Government and other public funds and reports to Parliament on how public resources have been utilised. The office, now, has improved staffing levels to undertake the audits of Government programmes. Therefore, the financial resource requirement to the office is paramount. Following the restructuring of the office that was approved in July, 2004, the office has managed to recruit qualified staff. This has contributed to quality audit reports.

Madam Chairperson, under the Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability (PEMFA) programme, five new provincial offices in Mongu, Solwezi, Kasama, Chipata and Mansa were completed and handed over to the office. Works on the extension of the head office which commenced in 2007, have reached an advanced stage. So far, half of the building has been occupied.

Madam Chairperson, as a result of the development mentioned above, the office has been able to widen audit coverage, respond to geographical challenges and implemented new audit methodologies and techniques. The office has also been able to meet the unrelenting public demands for quality audit services.

The office has performed well in the discharge of its constitutional mandate. At the moment, the Office of the Auditor-General has established offices in all the nine provinces. This is to ensure that all public resources being spent at both the Central Government and local authority level are adequately audited.

Madam Chairperson, in the last few years, Government programmes have expanded and been decentralised. For example, programmes such as the road sector development, agricultural sector investments, health and education reforms, water sector projects and constituency and youth development funds, among others, were introduced and expanded at district and community levels throughout the country. Audits, therefore, need to be carried out at the headquarters of all ministries and at the provincial and district levels.

Through the Auditor-General’s reports, the Government, the Zambian citizens and other stakeholders are informed of the extent to which their programmes are being implemented. Through the audit reports, weaknesses are revealed for corrective action to be taken.

During the course of 2010, the office will concentrate on the audit of the 2009 Government accounts focusing mainly on the following key areas:

(i) sectors that have been given priority in the National Development Plan (NDP) and which were allocated most of the funds in the 2009 Budget;

(ii) Government activities that have a direct influence on people’s lives;

(iii) accounts and activities where in the past serious weaknesses have been reported on in the Auditor-General’s report;

(iv) foreign funded activities where the non-issuing of audit reports will negatively affect further financing;

(v) in all audits special attention will be put on the risk of fraud and corruption;

(vi) conducting value for money audits;

(vii) audit of donor funds at the Ministry of Health and national roads funds; and

(viii) audit of both tax and non-tax revenues.

Madam Chairperson, apart from the Government ministries and departments, the office has planned to audit a number of statutory bodies such as the CEEC, MOFED London, National Housing Authority (NHA), Nkana Water and Sewerage Company (NWSC), University of Zambia (UNZA), Mulungushi University, National Pensions Scheme Authority (NAPSA), Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA), the Zambia Electricity Supply Company (ZESCO) and Tanzania Zambia Railways (TAZARA) amongst others. The office will carry out both regulatory and performance audits on these Government programmes and public institutions.

Madam Chairperson, I seek the support of this House to pass the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for affording me this opportunity to debate the budget of the Office of the Auditor-General.

Madam Chairperson, the presentation by His Honour the Vice-President has more or less summarised exactly the kind of detail I would have loved to hear from him. I would like to place on record that I appreciate the fact that the amounts provided for in the budget for the Office of the Auditor-General, if you look at individual lines, appear to be fairly satisfactory. There has been an increase from the figure of the 2009 Budget of K40.7 billion to K45 billion in the 2010 Budget. This is how it should be. 
I appreciate the support that the Government has given to the Office of the Auditor-General.

I am keen, Madam Chairperson, to see the quality of the audits becoming outstanding as has been the case in recent times. The reason behind this keeness, as thorough as possible, is that if the Office of the Auditor-General does not have skilled manpower and the quality of audit reports are not up to the mark, it can be very destructive to individuals, particularly, the controlling officers. The Auditor-General’s Office should be supported financially in order to make sure that our audit reports are as close to the truth as can possibly be.

In the same vein, I want to say to the Government, through His Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, that it is one thing to increase the budget to this office from K40 billion to K45 billion and another thing not to make these funds available to the office. On behalf of the Office of the Auditor-General, I wish to ask the Government to do all it can in ensuring that the work of this office is carried out. I want to ask the august House to support this budget as it is a major and traditional step towards fighting corruption and various vices that can easily beset our country.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate on this vote.

Madam, I would like to emphasise on the importance of this office. This office performs a very important function which must be supported at all costs. However, officers that are implementing the functions of this office are not handsomely rewarded for the risks that they undertake. I say so because everyone here is aware that we have had a lot of corruption cases that needed to be investigated upon which drew officers from the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and now the defunct Task Force on Corruption in conjunction with the Auditor-General’s Office. You may wish to know that the Task Force on Corruption and the ACC were getting more money as risk allowance than the officers in the Auditor-General’s Office. Officers in the Auditor-General’s office were getting K300,000 per month as risk allowance and similar officers in other wings were getting K1 million and above. We need to understand that these officers are also vulnerable to influences. Corrupt people may want to entice the officers with money so that cases are not audited. Therefore, I urge the Office of His Honour the Vice-President to look into this matter so that these officers do not remain vulnerable to outside influences.

The other issue I want to talk about is the need for this office to be effective, especially when it comes to auditing the municipalities unlike the trend prevailing now when the Office of the Auditor-General, sometimes, visits a particular office after three or four years. This institution is very much independent from the municipalities and as such can do a good job. We can not rely upon the internal auditors from the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. I, therefore, urge the Vice-President to look into this matter.  The Office of the Auditor-General must monitor municipalities yearly.

With these few remarks, I thank you.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Chairperson, I will try, as much as possible, to be brief. I think the earlier speakers have covered the thoughts of the House. We do support this vote.

However, I would like to find out what value is added to the audit reports when they are brought to this House. We have had so many audit reports that have been presented before this House, but what has been the follow-up action?

Madam, it is a good thing to carry out quality audits, performance audits and everything else that His Honour the Vice-President has indicated. However, the question is how quickly do we make follow-ups, like the previous speaker indicated? It is not useful if it takes three to four years to come up with an audit report because, by the time it comes, the people that may have been involved could already be out of employment. How do we harmonise this? I think this is the critical part that the Government must begin to look at. How timely do we do these reports? It is critical, particularly, in a country where our resources are meager. We need to emphasise accountability.

Madam, apart from just relying on the Auditor-General’s reports, we also need to ensure that there are timely management accounts that are presented to the controlling officers and, subsequently, to the Government, so that, at the end of the day, as a country, we are able to know where the money is and what is happening to it. We would know where our weaknesses and how we can improve on them. That is very important, instead of just relying on the Auditor-General. We need to harmonise this work.

Madam, what is it that people employed as accountants in ministries do? Are they doing an effective job? If not, why do we need to put them there? We need to realise that until we harmonise management accounts with the Auditor-General’s reports, we will not get anywhere as country. It will be like kicking a dead horse. We do not need to do that. What we need to do is to emphasise to the people that are managing the resources. Ultimately, that is their responsibility. The Auditor-General should only come in to confirm that which they have done and it comes at a time when it is a little bit late. We need to emphasise proper accountability.

With those few words, I support the vote.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members for the overwhelming support. I have taken note of their observations.

As regards taking action on the Auditor-General’s reports, as I indicated in my earlier speech, the Auditor-General’s reports are now almost current. There is no more delay like we used to experience in the past. If hon. Members of the House would care to go back to the Action Taken Reports and Treasury Minutes, they would ascertain what type of action is taken on the Auditor-General’s reports.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 07/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 07/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 08 − (Cabinet Office – K78,933,273,206).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the Cabinet Office Budget for the year 2010.

Cabinet Office is the highest administrative office in the Public Service responsible for co-ordinating the effective implementation of Government policies, systems and procedures and monitoring and evaluation of the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient administration of the Government. Cabinet Office operates directly under the Office of the President of the Republic of Zambia.

The status of Cabinet Office and its functions are derived mainly from Article 53 (1) and (2) of the Constitution of Zambia, Cap. 1 of the Laws of Zambia. Cabinet Office comprises the following:

(i) office of the Secretary to the Cabinet;

(ii) administration Division;

(iii) management Development Division;

(iv) policy Analysis and Co-ordination Division;

(v) gender in Development Division; and

(vi) office of the Former Presidents.

Madam, from the foregoing, the responsibilities of Cabinet Office cut across most of the Government ministries and institutions in relation to supervision and influencing the policy implementation process in the Government. Cabinet Office is the policy centre for the Government’s administration and management.

In addition, Cabinet Office takes responsibility for ad hoc commissions and new functions that may not have been allocated to any specific ministry or institution. The office also considers appeals and arbitrates between contending Government ministries and agencies.

Madam Chairperson, in order to effectively fulfil its mandate, Cabinet Office is guided by its mission statement namely:

“to co-ordinate the formulation and implementation of Government policies, programmes, systems and procedures; and monitor and evaluate the overall performance of the Public Service for the efficient and effective management of the Government business.”

Madam, in the context of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) and Public Service Reform Programme (PSRP), Cabinet Office seeks to improve delivery of public services with regard to policy formulation, implementation and interpretation, as well as monitoring and evaluation. This will be achieved through the implementation of the objectives as reflected in the Cabinet Office 2006 – 2010 Strategic Plan. The objectives are operationalised through well designed departmental work plans in order to enhance performance and delivery of public services.

Madam Chairperson, the major programmes that will be undertaken in 2010 by Cabinet Office include:

(i) Public Affairs and Summit Meetings

Cabinet Office will facilitate Presidential local and foreign travels as well as the maintenance and servicing of Presidential aircraft in order for the President to perform his Executive functions;

(ii) State Functions

Cabinet Office will facilitate the conduct of State Functions in order for the President to perform his ceremonial functions;

(iii) Public Service Reform Programme

Cabinet Office will facilitate the implementation of various activities of the Public Service Reform Programme. This will be done through the provision of internal management consultancy services to the Government ministries and institutions;

(iv) Cabinet Secretariat

Cabinet Office will co-ordinate the formulation of public policies and facilitate the monitoring and evaluation of policy implementation by Government ministries and institutions; and

(v) Support to Offices of Former Presidents
Cabinet Office will provide administrative support services to offices of the first, second and third presidents in accordance with the provisions of the Benefits of Former Presidents Act.

Madam, with regard to the performance of the 2009 Budget, the approved budget for Cabinet Office for 2009, was K121,757,472,287 out of which K94,106,480,217 was released by the Treasury as at 30th September, 2009. This figure represents 78 per cent of the total approved budget of Cabinet Office.

Madam Chairperson, as hon. Members of this august House will appreciate, Cabinet Office plays a key role in the management of the Public Service and provision of central administration guidance to the nation. The funds requested for in the 2010 Estimates of Expenditure will be necessary for the effective execution of the aforementioned responsibilities.

I, therefore, request the support of the House for these estimates.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on the Vote on Cabinet Office.

I think what has been outlined by the Vice-President is correct, but we would like to see that what is written on paper is interpreted into reality.

With those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Very few words, indeed.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to support the Vote on Cabinet Office. I also agree with His Honour the Vice-President about the importance of Cabinet Office.

Madam, allow me to mention a few things of interest and concern at the same time. Firstly, as His Honour the Vice-President mentioned, Cabinet Office is the engine of the Civil Service. It is this engine that must be efficient.

It is this engine that must ensure that the policies and promises of any Government in power are actualised in practice. Therefore, the way the Cabinet Office operates, an arm which carries out this function, will ensure that the Government in power is delivering the promises to the people or not.

Madam Chairperson, it is also important to look critically at Cabinet Office and how the instructions there from are filtering into the operatives on the ground. One thing that has been of concern to me, for some time, is the reform programme within the Public Service. I recall that the programme begun some time back in 1998 or 1999, and, I think, that we are still carrying on the reform programme. The question that begs an answer is how long it will take Cabinet Office to reform itself.

How long shall we wait to see Cabinet Office streamlined to the required standard? Is it a problem that we have asked them to internally manage the change? This is the real issue in itself. It is a very difficult thing to ask a fish to remove some water from its pond because, obviously, it will be afraid that it might remove too much and consequently kill itself. I think that, maybe, this consultancy, within, must be supplemented with outsiders who should tell us whether or not the officers who are doing this transformation within are doing the job efficiently and expeditiously. Only then will we see the system streamlined to required standards, otherwise all the wishes of the Government of the day, may end up frustrated by the failure of the Public Service to carry out the functions that it has been mandated to carry out by the Government in power.

Madam Chairperson, each and every policy that the Government of the day wants to carry out is carried out through the officers in the Public Service. Consequently, it is important to realise also that if the Public Service is frustrated, the chances are that the programmes, no matter how good they are, will be frustrated. I want to plead with His Honour the Vice-President to look very closely at the issues of concern to this very important group of people in our country. The people without whom, the very delivery of services to our people will be undermined. I think that it is important that their cry for better pay is heard.

Madam Chairperson, what brings to the fore the other point of concern for me is the salary structure within the Public Service. I think that it is very frustrating that within the same system, some people get more money than others. I want to give an example of the Ministry of Home Affairs which we all know very well. We have the Inspector-General of Police on one hand and the head of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) and the head of the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) on the other. If you look at their salary structures, it is impossible to believe that these people are both performing functions that are important to us.

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa:  Madam Chairperson, the salary of the Inspector-General of Police and that of the head of the ACC are incomparable. It must be very frustrating for the person who is head of the entire police force. We need to re-look at these structures. I would suggest to His Honour the Vice-President that he considers re-looking at the entire structure. I am happy that the President mentioned that there is a programme now to ensure that the salary structure within the whole Civil Service is streamlined so that people begin to get salaries consumerate with the jobs they do…

The Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in
the Chair]

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, before the break, I was saying that there is need to streamline the salaries of the Civil Service and that it was good to note that His Excellency the President had already stated to the nation that the Government would be looking into the salary structures of the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, I also wish to put the record straight since the mother tongue intervention had moved in at one point …

Laughter

Mr Mwansa: …and I used a term that the Hon. Speaker brought to our attention, the issue of commensurate and consumerate.

Laughter

Mr Mwansa: The word I was supposed to use is, actually, commensurate.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to, also, bring out the issue which is extremely important concerning the Public Service. This is the need for it to remain non-partisan. This is essential to the way we want to run our democracy. If our Public Service is politicised, then we will have a difficulty, as a people, first of all, as politicians in trusting those who we find in office when there is a change of Government because there will always be the fear that the officers who were running the ministries may have belonged to the Government that has left. Consequently, it is extremely important that we ensure that our Public Service remains as we have always known it, non-partisan. Those who desire to become political must be removed from the Public Service and brought into the political arena.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: …where we can face them without them hiding in the Public Service.

Mr Chairperson, this is extremely important and I am grateful that as we discuss the new Constitution of our country, this issue has been aptly highlighted and there has been a unanimous agreement that we keep our Public Service non-partisan. I think that this is one issue that we should not underplay.

Mr Chairperson, having said all this, and in order for us to ensure that we remunerate our Public Service well, there is, obviously, need to increase the allocation to the Public Service. Somehow, we must find some money to ensure that we start giving people what they deserve.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words and remarks, I wish to support His Honour the Vice-President and the Vote before the House.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank all hon. Members for the overwhelming support. Particularly, I would like to thank Hon. Mwansa for the constructive suggestions and observations which he has made.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 08/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/03 ordered to sand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 08/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 09 – (Teaching Service Commission – Office of the President – K2,552,267,367).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity accorded to me to present this year’s estimates of expenditure for the Teaching Service Commission.

Mr Chairperson, the Teaching Service Commission was established under Article 115 (A) of the Service Commission Act Cap. 259, Section 13 (B) and 21 of the same Act which empowers the commission to make, with the consent of the President of the Republic of Zambia, regulations regarding its operational procedures and or to confer powers or impose duties on any other authority of the Government for the purpose of discharging its functions.

Mr Chairperson, the specific functions of the commission are prescribed under Section 122 of the Service Commission Act as follows:

(i) to make appointments to any office in the teaching Service;

(ii) to make appointments on probation confirmations in appointments retirements and transfers;

(iii) to exercise disciplinary control over persons holding or acting in the established teaching service posts and remove any persons from such offices; and

(iv) to conduct professional appraisals for teachers as well as sensitise them on their rights and responsibilities.

Mr Chairperson, in 2009, the commission performed its functions with a budget of K2,361,549,728. I now present the 2010 Budget Estimate for the Teaching Service Commission amounting to K2,574,093,536. These funds will support the portfolio functions of the commission in our continued efforts to provide efficient and effective teaching services to our youthful population.

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, urge this august House to support this budget as presented.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I am going to be very brief.

Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that the budget of the Teaching Service Commission has been increased by almost K200 million only. Having said that, I want to say that the budget is still not enough. I hope the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning is listening so that in the 2011 Budget, if possible, the budget can be increased by, maybe, K3 billion.

Mr Chairperson, we all know the functions of this service which his Honour the Vice-President has just highlighted. Officers from this commission used to go to province from carrying out functions such as retirements, appointments, confirmations and dismissals. They used to go to provinces, at least, three times a year, but due to insufficient funds, that has reduced to on one trip per year. This means that the back log of confirmations, retirements and appointments is big in the provinces. We are all aware that the number of teachers is increasing every year. Since the number is increasing, it means that there are more retirements, appointments and more confirmation to be worked on. This is the reason teachers would be found working for two or three years without confirmation because the Teaching Service Commission has not gone into the provinces as they used to do before.

Mr Chairperson, for this reason, I want to request the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to allocate more money to the commission in the next budget because the teaching service is expanding every year.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.  I would also like to echo the sentiments which have been recorded by the hon. Member of Parliament for Katombola that the vote that the Teaching Service Commission should be increased in order to empower the commission to travel and make appointments, confirmations and even take disciplinary action on the spot. This is a very effective tool that teachers rely upon. It is, therefore, important to ensure that the Government, through His Honour the Vice-President, sits down and review all the weaknesses surrounding the confirmation, appointments and also demotion of teachers.

Sir, if the system has been so effective, there is no way we still have confirmations, appointments, and even disciplinary action to taking two, three or four years and so on. In most cases, action is only taken when the Teaching Service Commission travels to a given province. This means that there is a breakdown in the whole system and it is, therefore, important to have it reviewed.

For example, why should it take a new teacher, who has just reported at a station, two years before being appointed, and yet we have operatives at the district level? What is the work of the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS)? What is the work of the Provincial Education Officer? Do they have to wait for the Teaching Service Commissioners to undertake tours to attend to all these cases? It implies that some of our managers at the district and provincial levels are being paid for doing literally nothing.

Sir, I have said this, in this House, before and I would like to say it again, that, please, continue evaluating the performance of our managers. The only assurance you can give to those who are joining the Teaching Service is that, upon arrival at the station, their cases will be attended to. This means that they will be appointed, confirmed or promoted or demoted on time.

There are certain instances, Mr Chairperson, where teachers are promoted or confirmed posthumously. Surely, if the system is working, why would a teacher be promoted or confirmed posthumously? Then you even utter kind words that such a person was so hard working, it was a matter of time before he was going to be promoted. Where were you all along? This person is now a departed soul and he/she is not even listening to those artificial praises that you are making.

His Honour the Vice-President, it is better for you to sit down and review the whole system and attend to all these problematic areas. Why should a head teacher fail to submit the forms of a teacher for appointment purposes at the district level? Why should DEBS office fail to submit the same papers immediately to the province and finally to the hon. Minister of Education up to the Teaching Service Commission? Why should it take two to three or four to five years? These are weaknesses which have the potential of demoralising our hardworking teachers. Please, look into all these weaknesses. See where the problem area is and attend to it quickly as possible.

Sir, I salute the Teaching Service Commission because it has done a commendable job. Given a lot of financial resources and mobility to assist in moving quarterly to all the districts and provinces, a number of teachers would be appointed, confirmed and also disciplined.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I would like to address is the question of some of our managers who keep the papers they receive from the districts and provinces in their offices for long period of time, especially those institutions which are paid for appointing people in the Ministry of Education. Sometimes, when one visits some of these offices, they find piles and piles of files for the teachers who are supposed to be appointed or confirmed. Why should officers there take pleasure in keeping all the files at their desks? Some of the files even swallow up the height of the manager. You may even find some of the files sprawled on the floor. Surely, if one is paid to confirm or appoint teachers, why should they take pride in keeping all those files in their offices?

Mr Chairperson, I would like to implore the managers who are paid for supervising their subordinates to take interest and find out what is happening in all these offices. It has become so cumbersome that, sometimes, when one moves into some of these offices, they will find files starting from the door way up to the table. What for? That is inefficiency. For example, if in the past the more files the manger was surrounded with used to be a source of pride and he or she would get more credit for that, maybe, I will take this opportunity to tell them that those days are behind us. In modern times, that is inefficiency.

Sir, I would like to see a situation where, one day, the system will fire people who keep files for a long period. It is tantamount to killing a job. A person working in Samfya awaiting confirmation has worked five years down the line and cannot be promoted. If he is not confirmed, he will lose a lot of opportunities. One cannot be promoted or sent for training or aspire for any office simply because he or she has not been confirmed.

Mr Chota: No advance!

Mr Kasongo: Therefore, it means that those who sit on other people’s files must be fired. For example, if one does not want to fire people, I have said this before and I would like to say it again, can an office be created at Cabinet Office for those who are redundant so that they can begin being reforming? The moment liabilities are kept in the province or district, it means that things will not move. Sometimes, a lot of liabilities are found even at the headquarters. Why keep them? A lot of people should be able to rated. There should be a need to try to employ action-oriented people. We need managers and not liabilities. We need assets to move this country forward.

Therefore, I would like to implore His Honour the Vice-President to review the entire system of appointments, confirmation and all these activities that are associated with the Teaching Service Commission. However, on its part, it is doing a commendable job, but has been over burdened because of inefficiency which begins from the office of the head teacher, DEBS’ Office, PRO and sometimes the headquarters. Please, take care of these sentiments so that action is taken to address the plight of our teachers. Most of them work for five, six, seven, eight or ten years without being confirmed, hence their losing out in terms of opportunities. Sometimes, they are unable to access loans because they are told that, after all, they are not confirmed hence their future is unknown and, therefore, cannot be promoted.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that there is a provision in the Yellow Book for the Teaching Service Commission, which I support.

However, in supporting that, I would like to say that teachers are a key cadre of professions to the development of this nation or any nation in the world. Their effectiveness and efficiency will be gauged by the number of graduates that they push through. In order for any nation, especially Zambia, to meet the millennium development goals (MDGs), that is next to education, and also the Vision 2030 Educational For All, we need to have a system which is very efficient. The current Teaching Service Commission is not as efficient as it ought to be if we are to meet those MDGs and the Vision 2030.

Sir, there is a situation where teachers put in so much for the so little that they get at the end of the month. When teachers were celebrating World Teachers’ Day on 5th October, I tried to go to the internet to check what was obtaining in other countries. When I looked at our teachers back home, I discovered that the Teaching Service Commission had a lot of problems which it needed to resolve. I looked at a teacher back home and discovered that we have this cadre of professionals that wants to put in everything they have, but look at their accommodation. They do not seem to have any proper accommodation. Some of them travel long distances to go for work and try to teach our children. If you look at the distances they walk to report for work and what they impart in the minds of the children, I see that this nation needs to do a lot for them. It is for this reason, that as they try to put in a lot for our children, the Government should also be seen to be proactive and ensure that it looks at their conditions of service and improve on them.

The Teaching Service Commission, in its current form, is not going to achieve much because we have a situation where most of the time the officers are, here, at the headquarters. There is a provision now in the budget where there is an increase from K170 million to K222 million, but we are expecting a situation where provincial tours are effective to an extent where we can have teachers’ issues handled promptly.

Mr Chairperson, we have situations, for instance, in my constituency where a teacher, after leaving employment, gets promoted and when you look at the retirement package, it reflects a different salary grade. Therefore, there is a need for us to revamp that to ensure that we put in efficient systems for teachers to get what is due to them.

The other issue is on the promotion of teachers posthumously. This is rampant, especially on the Copperbelt, and I can give you cases on it because it is something obtaining on the ground. After a teacher dies, four months later, the family receives a letter that the teacher has been promoted to the rank of senior teacher. This happens even after one year. This is a mockery to the relatives. Therefore, it is important that we look at these issues and ensure that things go on well.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, we have a problem where the ministry has recruited secretaries and accountants. These people were recruited in December, 2008, but to date, they have not been put on the payroll even though they have been working. How do you expect them to operate let alone feed their families? We need to improve the system to promote efficiency because if left unattended to, teachers will become a recipe for corruption. They will start thinking of how they will get something from the system and as such it is important that the issues that are being raised are implemented quickly.

Mr Chairperson, when it comes to discipline, the Teaching Service Commission has not done well. In the press, there was a case of a thirty year-old teacher who wanted to marry a thirteen year-old girl. This teacher came out in the open and started talking about issues even with the knowledge that according to the law, it was a crime. He did so because he knew that the Teaching Service Commission seemed toothless or took time to mete out disciplinary action. We would like to see a system in the Teaching Service Commission like the one they used in the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) where when one commited an offence, they were charged and the following day, there would be a case hearing. One would then see themselves out upon being fired, if that being case. This would be effective because the Government would be saving money. If that system will not be implemented, we will have a situation where a lot of money will be spent on people who are supposed to be fired. It does not pay to have a situation where those on disciplinary cases continue to draw salaries. It is important that we improve on the delivery of the service. I am trying to say that the Government should have ears to listen because if it does not, we will continue to talk about the same things.

Mr Chairperson, when I look at the Budget, I question why we should debate the same issues because we debate the same things year in and year out, but nothing changes. That is why, sometimes, we just say we are not going to debate these issues because the Government does not respond. What I expect is that when issues are brought out, the listening Government that it is, needs to implement them promptly.

Mr Sichilima: Fyafula!

Mr Mukanga: I am not talking about boxing.

I thank you, Sir.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have taken note of the various submissions and I wish to thank the hon. Members for the support they have given on this Vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 09/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.
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The House adjourned at 1133 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 3rd November, 2009.