DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 4th November, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

_________

ANNOUNCEMENT

ZESCO POWER FAILURE

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members will recall that there was a power failure at the National Assembly on Tuesday, 3rd November, 2009 at about 1545 hours. The problem was traced to the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (Zesco) Leopards Hill Sub-station which had tripped due to an overload. The National Assembly generator failed to pick the load during the power failure, as it malfunctioned. As a result, business had to be suspended for ten minutes.

Hon. Members, I wish to state that Zesco say it has put measures in place to ensure that the Sub-station is not overloaded. The National Assembly generator has also been attended to and is now working normally.

I thank you.

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

CONSTRUCTION OF SCHOOLS IN MFUWE

166. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Education when the Government would construct schools in the following areas in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Chito in Chief Mpumba;

(ii) Chaya and Kalimba in Chief Nabwalya; and

(iii) Chobela in Chief Mukungule.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, there are no immediate plans to construct schools in the following areas in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency; Chito in Chief Mpumba; Chaya and Kalimba in Chief Nabwalya; and Chobela in Chief Mukungule.

However, last year, the Government had the following projects in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Muchelenje Basic – constructed two teachers’ houses;

(ii) Salamo Basic – rehabilitated 1x2 and 2x3 classroom blocks;

 (iii) Kalonje Basic – construction of 1x3 classroom block;

 (iv) Katibunga Basic – constructed 1x3 classroom block;

(v) Chipundu Basic – constructed two teacher houses; and

 (vi) Kazembe Basic – rehabilitated one teacher’s house;

The Government distributed 457 desks in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency.

Mr Speaker, this year, the district is carrying out the following projects in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency:

 (i) Kapwanya Basic
  Construction of 1x3 classroom block;
  Construction of 1 teacher’s house; and
  Construction of one VIP toilet.

 (ii) Kakoko Basic (New Site)
  construction of 1x3 classroom block.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, why is the Government taking long to construct permanent school structures in these places? From the time the schools were opened in the 1980s, the Government has not constructed any building at all. It is the community that is making all the effort. Why is the Government taking this long?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I thought the hon. Member would be thankful because we have shown him what we are doing in his constituency.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Aah!

Thankful for what when you were using taxpayer’s money?

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has given a list of developments in the area of education, but the question is: When was anything going to be done in these areas? Having heard that there is a need for the ministry to construct schools, what is the Government going to do about this? Are they just going to keep quiet, because he said the Government had no plans?

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, that question was specific and refers to when the ministry was going to construct schools in specific areas. Clearly, we said that the ministry had no immediate plans for this.

First of all, the ministry had not received any request from those areas. In view of this, I would like to find out if the hon. Member of Parliament is actually liaising with the community.

Sir, there are existing community schools in those areas. If the issue at hand is actually expansion and to bring the schools into the mainstream Ministry of Education, I think that is a matter that we can discuss, originating from the District Education Board Secretary (DEBS).

However, we have illustrated that we are actually providing education facilities by the list of teachers’ houses and schools that we are constructing, not only in the Northern Province, but also in Mfuwe Constituency in particular where the hon. Member of Parliament who asked the question comes from.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, why is it that the sign post at Chito reads, “Welcome to Chito Basic School” and not “ Welcome to Chito Community School.”

Mrs Phiri: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, whether there are schools that are run in conjunction with the Government and the communities, private schools or there are, indeed, schools for the Ministry of Education and are basic schools, I applaud the people of Chito area who are very proud and want to welcome visitors to their school which is a basic school.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

PRINTING OF DRIVING LICENCES

167. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport why the printing of driving licences has been moved from the Lumumba Road office to the Road Traffic Headquarters.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, in March, 2009, the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) moved the card-printing facility (CPF) and the driving licence card issuing office for Lusaka from the RTSA Lumumba office to RTSA head office along Dedan Kimathi Road for the following reasons:

(i) to decongest the RTSA Lumumba office because it was constantly congested;; and

(ii) to enhance monitoring and control of CPF and issuance of driving licences to applicants.

Moving CPF has helped to decongest the RTSA Lumumba office and there is more order in the issuance of driving licences to applicants.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, when the Government constructed the RTSA offices along Lumumba Road, the idea was to decongest the works which were taking place at the headquarters. The Government spent a lot of money paying consultants who installed computer equipment in one room and trained Zambians. I would like to know whether that decision is a step backwards.

I also would also like to know what will happen to that room which was fully equipped with modern equipment.

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, the facility at the Lumumba Road office is not adequate for the services that RTSA provides. At the Lumumba Road office, the services, which were provided, included processing of applications for motor vehicle licence and registration, driving licence applications, issuance of licences, including testing for provisional drivers’ licence and card printing facilities. Clearly, the services that were provided at the Lumumba Road facility created a lot of congestion and it was seen fit that some of the services be re-located to the headquarters so as to provide comfort to the public.

Mr Speaker, the computer facility, especially the server, is still within the premises of the Lumumba Road office and I should add that as the number of vehicles increases in this country, RTSA offices will become more and more congested. As a Government, we plan to relocate RTSA to another facility on a plot along Mungwi Road, which has already been procured, where the headquarters and operational services of RTSA will be located once resources for construction work have been secured. In short, the Lumumba Road facility is inadequate because of the increasing demand for services of RTSA.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, at the moment, there is a lot of congestion at the Lumumba issuance office. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why he found it necessary to take away the original decentralisation of issuance of motor vehicle licences from councils where the infrastructure is available?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, there are two factors to what the hon. Member has raised. The congestion that we experience at the RTSA facilities emanates from the fact that in 2003, we had, as a country, to migrate. We migrated from the old drivers licence system to the SADC drivers licence protocol. As a result, most of the licences acquired in 2003, expired last year, almost at the same time and that is after five years. Clearly, what it means is that every five years, those who migrated to the SADC driving system will have to renew their licences and because of the big numbers of people who have to renew their licences at the same time, that, inevitably, creates congestion. There are a number of measures being taken and one of them has to do with equipment, which will assist in facilitating the card-printing system or the driver’s licence printing system, whereby creating some efficiency. At the moment, the printers, which are there, are able to print 1,500 cards per day and the plans are to increase on that number.

Mr Speaker, the outsourcing of services to councils and other agencies has its own problems. That is why RTSA management saw it fit to centralise it so that we can have an effective and efficient monitoring system of the services.

I thank you, Sir.

RONALD ROSS HOSPITAL

168. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) when the medical staff at the Ronald Ross Hospital in Mufulira who joined Government service from the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) in 1997/98 will be paid settling-in-allowances;

(b) when the medical staff above would formally be appointed by the Government; and

(c) when the government would send an anaesthetist to the Ronald Ross Hospital.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Mr Speaker, the Government took over the running of the Ronald Ross hospital from ZCCM in 2000 and placed it under the Ronald Ross Hospital Management Board. Subsequently, some former ZCCM employees were interviewed and recruited by the hospital management board under what was termed local conditions.

Mr Speaker, the process of appointment and confirmation of eligible officers at the above-named institution has already commenced as part of the on-going restructuring of the Ministry of Health. The officers appointed under this process will enjoy the prevailing Civil Service conditions of service.

Mr Speaker, an anaesthetist has been posted to the Ronald Ross Hospital. The officer reported for duty on 3rd November, 2009 on transfer from Kasama.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated that appointments are just starting. I would like to know why it has taken more than ten years to start appointing staff at the Ronald Ross Hospital when their counterparts at Nchanga are receiving settling-in-allowances three years after the transfer. I would also like to know why all this time, settling-in-allowance has not been paid to the personnel at the Ronald Ross Hospital.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, with regard to the conditions of service for the workers at the Ronald Ross Hospital, the Government did not enter into an agreement to award settling-in-allowances. What occurred in the incident that the hon. Member is talking about, involved the transfer of staff within the same area, but there was no physical movement of people. Paying the allowances was not part of the conditions and as such, the Government is under no obligation to pay.

Mr Speaker, as regards the restructuring process, it is still going at the ministry too. So it is not just the Ronald Ross Hospital which has been affected.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, does the hon. Minister realise that taking too long to appoint people at this hospital is contributing to the low morale, and hence the prevailing problems.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the health personnel have been informed about this process. It cannot happen in one week or one month because what used to happen in the time of the Central Board of Health (CBoH) was that people were just recruited without establishing their positions. Now the restructuring is trying to align the positions to the establishment and that does not take long.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, the restructuring exercise that the hon. Minister is referring to is causing a lot of concern and anxiety ….

Mr Speaker: Do not debate, ask a question.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, what is the guarantee that after the restructuring programme, all the employees who have requested to be included on the Government payroll will be taken up and that none of them will be left roaming on the streets.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, as I said earlier, the restructuring programme is confirming the positions like what happened in Chilubi, where people were on the payroll, but there was no establishment for them. These people were moved to another place where there were vacancies. So, at the moment, we are trying to make an establishment which matches with the people we have. This way, almost everyone who is qualified is assured of a job.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the medical personnel we are talking about moved twelve years ago. Can I find out from the hon. Minister how long his ministry will take to complete this exercise of restructuring to ensure that some people do not reach retirement age, leave employment or even die before they are actually put on the Government establishment and go away without their dues. I would like to find out how long these Zambians have to suffer?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Kabwata for his concerns. The restructuring process is a very serious one. We need to do it diligently so that we do not leave anyone out. We have to give people their rightful positions. It is not as simple as it might seem because, like I said, people were employed without an establishment, in most cases and now, we have to find a way of how we can put these people on the payroll. As you know, this requires a lot of consultation with the Public Service Management Division (PSMD) and all the other bodies. So we are trying to get all these people engaged because we know we need them. They are qualified, but we have to do things right.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why the nurses at Nchanga Hospital, who were in the same circumstances as those at the Ronald Ross Hospital were paid settling-in-allowance, but the ones in Mufulira were denied.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I might not be in a position to state the kind of conditions that were entered into with the people at Nchanga Hospital and as such, I cannot confirm whether they have been paid their settling-in-allowance or not. However, I was answering the question relating to the Ronald Ross Hospital.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that delays in appointing health personnel in their positions have led to a brain drain in this country, leading to a shortage of health personnel.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the brain drain on a country might be partly due to what she is saying, but that it is not the only reason. The whole world has faced this problem because people have just been moving from one place to another. So I really do not know what the cause is in Zambia, but it is possible that it is connected to the worldwide movement.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Member for Chitambo.

Mr Musonda was seated.

Mr Speaker: He is no longer interested.

Dr Musonda (Chitambo): I will still ask.

Laughter

Dr Musonda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health if one of the challenges he is facing in completing the restructuring process is the cheating by most civil servants who provide wrong qualifications. It is very difficult for the Ministry of Health to actually confirm and quickly appoint them in their respective positions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Waulula leakage.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is known as a friendly question.

Laughter

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I mentioned that we are trying to be diligent in the way we are restructuring the ministry and we want to put people in their rightful positions. This is why it is taking some time because we have to consult with PMSD. We do not want to end up with poorly-qualified people holding positions which they do not deserve. So I thank the hon. Member for Chitambo for bringing up that particular issue.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, I would like to find from the hon. Minister of Health how the Ronald Ross Hospital has been managing without an anaesthetist, who is an integral part of the theatre team. The anaesthetist has to be there when all emergency operations are taking place.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, this cadre of personnel is mobile. Even here in Lusaka, we have anaesthetists who move from clinic to clinic. So I do not see how that should be a problem.

I thank you, Sir.
Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, Zambian labour laws have a stipulated time when somebody should be appointed. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health if the ministry has been exempted from the laws and can, therefore, take as long as it wishes to appoint people.

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, when we have some changes, like what happened, people are expected to work under their old contracts until they are moved. There is nothing wrong with that.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, when personnel are finally appointed, is the Government going to backdate their pension contributions so that those who will retire, maybe, a year or two after their appointments, can get something reasonable?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am thankful to the hon. Member for that concern. The conditions they will find will apply at the time they are engaged.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Sir, the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) hospitals had an elaborate oganisational structure and employees could easily be placed according to their qualifications. How is the Government finding it difficult to infuse personnel in the chaotic Ministry of Health using a proper structure?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the changes that have happened have required that people are moved and it is not the same people who were there at the time of ZCCM. In most cases, people had moved about and had been employed using different references. We are bringing them into Government service and, therefore, we have to ensure that they fit into our establishment.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

KABWE GENERAL HOSPITAL

169. Mr Kakusa (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Health:

(a) whether the ministry was aware that the Kabwe General Hospital kitchen was gutted by fire in June, 2009;

(b) whether the ministry was aware that since June, 2009, the hospital authorities had been preparing food for patients at the nursing school which had limited capacity;

(c) what measures the ministry had taken to avert the grievous risks the patients were exposed to as a result of transporting the prepared food from one point to another; and

(d) when the ministry would rehabilitate the hospital kitchen to avert further hardships on both the patients and hospital authorities.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health is aware that the kitchen at Kabwe General Hospital was gutted by fire on 14th June, 2009. Since then, the hospital had to immediately find an alternative place to prepare food for patients, in this case, the nursing school’s main kitchen. The patients are not exposed to any grievous risks since high levels of hygiene are observed at all stages. For example, food is prepared in standard pots and taken to wards using prescribed kitchen utensils.

Mr Speaker, the procurement process for the rehabilitation of the kitchen at the hospital has already commenced. Professional evaluation has been done by competent Government departments, namely the Fire Services Department, Zambia Police Service and Ministry of Works and Supply, the estimated cost of rehabilitating the kitchen is K523 million. This activity has already been included in the 2010 Budget. However, my ministry has released K119 million, the initial sum of money required to have the roof repaired before the onset of rains.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

DIALYSIS MACHINES IN GOVERNMENT HOSPITALS

170. Mr Kambwili asked the Minister of Health:

(a) how many Government hospitals had dialysis machines;

(b) of these machines, how many were operational; and

(c) how many patients were on dialysis machines each year.

Mr Akakandelwa: Mr Speaker, the University Teaching Hospital (UTH) is the only Government hospital with dialysis machines. All the five machines at the hospital are operational. The UTH does an average of ten to twelve dialyses per day. These include both acute renal failure and end stage renal failure. Therefore, on average, UTH attends to approximately 12,480 patients per year.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I, personally, donated three dialysis machines to the Roan General Hospital and one to Luanshya Hospital. The one at Luanshya Hospital is already operational …

Mr Speaker: Order! Order!

What is your question?

Mr Kambwili: Why has the Government failed to send people who are specialised in dialysis machines to Roan General Hospital to avoid those machines becoming white elephants?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I thank the hon. Member for Roan for that follow-up question. The problem of dialysis is not lack of machinery, but the cost of running the dialysis. It is a very expensive process because the chemicals required are very expensive. So the machines are not the problem. The people who actually manufacture these machines are willing give them free of charge as long as one pays for the chemicals …

Laughter

Mr Simbao: … which is the most expensive requirement. I am glad the hon. Member has said there is a dialysis machine at Luanshya Hospital because we are planning to have one in Livingstone and Ndola, but then we might have to follow-up on the one the hon. Member has talked about.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, can I find out from the hon. Minister, who is lamenting on the cost of chemicals to run dialysis equipment, what plans he has put in place as the hon. Minister responsible for the provision of health for the people, to ensure that people who require the services of dialysis machines do get it without having to go to South Africa or Zimbabwe where they do not only pay for the chemicals, but also pay huge costs for transport, accommodation and so forth?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am thankful for that follow-up question by the hon. Member for Kabwata. I want to tell the hon. Member that this Government has in place free dialysis machine services for people who cannot afford to pay for the services. The cost of dialysis treatment is quite high but, in a situation where somebody has been diagnosed with a problem and cannot pay, we have the social welfare office at UTH which exempts people from payments of any kind.

This had better be known because I have been approached by many people before and I have told them to go and see this social welfare officer and they have been exempted from paying. People just have to prove that they are not able to pay. This office is independent and is not influenced by anyone. Not even the ministry has powers to exempt patients who cannot pay. So that’s the measure we have put in place to care for people who have this problem.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, considering that a number of people around our country may need to use the dialysis machine despite being unable to pay for its services, are there any arrangements, through UTH or the Ministry of Health, to avail the services of the exempting officer, who is based in Lusaka, to such people who are, for instance, in Luapula Constituency or any other part of the country?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, there is a social welfare officer wherever the service is rendered. Therefore, if the service is to be provided in Mansa, there will be an officer there to handle such cases.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, my question has been covered.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I happened to be with the late great Mainza Chona a few days before he died of kidney failure some years back. He described to me how being at UTH was a fifty-fifty affair. He further explained that, sometimes, the machines would work, but there would be no power supply and, as a result, people were sent back home. Therefore, what does “operational” mean in this context and how operational are these machines? Are the machines working properly every day, hon. Minister?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, it would be very nice for the hon. Member for Lusaka Central to come with me to UTH any time to prove that the standby generators, which are five in number, are always in operation and are tested every Friday. To this effect, we can go to UTH on any day so that we take the officers by surprise. The department is very well covered in terms of machines and is never short of power supply.  I appeal to the hon. Minister to, please, go to UTH on any day and take the officers by surprise by asking them to test their generators.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the cost, per session, of dialysis treatment. Is there a half-way arrangement between exemption and full payment, like a subsidy, because it is easier to get a subsidy than an exemption?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the cost of dialysis treatment is K500,000.00 per session. I am not aware of a half-way mode of payment. What I know is that people who cannot pay are exempted and are not asked to pay anything. However, I have to find out, maybe, that can also work because the chemicals are really expensive.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Health how long it takes for people who genuinely need exemption to be identified. If the Government has any plans, what help is it giving to children who need dialysis treatment?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, the service is available to everyone; whether young or old. Like I said, there is an officer who determines whether one is able to pay or not. When the officer is convinced that one is not able to pay, such people are exempted and no one else can challenge that exemption.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that because of the expensive chemicals used for the dialysis treatment at UTH, even with the exemption exercise in place, the hospital is not successfully able to assist people who are not able to pay. This is why many of those with acute renal failures die at the hospital. If he is aware, what tangible actions is he going to take to serve the many people who are suffering?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I am not aware of the problem the hon. Member has raised. I have not yet come across a situation where UTH fails to cope with the numbers of patients to be treated and neither have we ever come across a situation where we have run out of chemicals. Of course, we know that this is a very expensive venture, as we are spending a lot of money on the very expensive chemicals. However, we have not yet come across a situation where we have run out of chemicals. If the hon. Member knows of a situation such as this one, I will be very interested to learn from him so that we take it up and see how well we can handle it.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Minister stated that the reagents for the dialysis machine are very expensive, I would like to find out what tentative arrangement the Government is making to ensure that the reagents are bought promptly to afford every Zambian the right to life?

Mr Simbao: Mr Speaker, I have just said that we have not yet experienced a situation of running out of chemicals because it is very important to have them in stock always. As I said, the owners of these machines give them at no cost, but it is from the chemicals that they want to make money. Therefore, they ensure that we always have stocks. As a result, we do not run out of chemicals.

I thank you, Sir.
___________{mospagebreak}

MOTION

COMMITTEE ON REFORMS AND MODERNISATION REPORT

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the first report of the Reforms and Modernisation Committee for the First Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 26th October, 2009.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Mr B. Y. Mwila (Nchelenge): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, under the terms of reference, your Committee are charged with the responsibility of examining and proposing reforms to the powers, procedures, practices, organisation and facilities of the National Assembly provided that, in proposing such reforms, the committee shall bear in mind the balance of power between the respective constitutional responsibilities and the roles of the National Assembly, the Government and the duties of other house-keeping committees.

Sir, allow me to highlight some of the activities that your Committee undertook during the year.

Firstly, the House will recall that the National Assembly of Zambia signed the memorandum of understanding (MoU) with co-operating partners in respect of the capacity building component of the Parliamentary Reform Programme Phase Three (PRP III) on 30th May, 2008. The co-operating partners that are party to the agreement comprise the Department of International Development (DFID), the European Commission (EC), the Irish Aid and the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP). The project is being implemented as a distinct component of the PRP III and its goal is to increase the effectiveness of the National Assembly as a representative agent of oversight and reform through the capacity building component. Implementation of this component officially commenced on 1st June, 2008. Therefore, the first year of implementing the project ended on 31st May, 2009.

In spite of a number of challenges that were encountered in the first year of the project, a number of achievements were scored. Several training activities for hon. Members of Parliament and staff of the National Assembly were undertaken. This training was in the form of workshops and specialised training, covering a variety of subjects, including budget analysis, management of committee meetings, effective management of constituency offices, legislative drafting, attachments to other parliaments in the region, policy analysis, human resources management and project management. These activities contributed to enhancing the capacity of both hon. Members of Parliament and staff to enable them better execute their roles.

Sir, the capacity of constituency offices was also enhanced with the purchase of office furniture and equipment. Further, fifty motor cycles were procured with a view to improving the mobility of constituency staff and, ultimately, enhancing their ability to effectively facilitate the parliamentary work of the hon. Members of Parliament by helping them overcome the challenge of reaching constituents in far flung corners of their constituencies. These activities were implemented to further increase the hon. Member of Parliament’s accessibility to his or her constituents. The remaining 100 motor bikes will be purchased in 2010.

Work plan and Budget for the Capacity Building Component of PRPIII

Sir, after signing the MoU with co-operating partners in respect of the capacity building component of the PRPIII in May, 2008, it was agreed that the financial year for the project for budgeting and reporting purposes would run from 1st June to 31st May of the following year. Consequently, year one of the project commenced on 1st June, 2008 and ended on 31st May, 2009. However, in practice, several challenges arose regarding this arrangement. As a result, the National Assembly agreed with the co-operating partners to realign the budgeting and reporting year to the calendar year. To achieve this, it was agreed that a six- month work plan be developed to run from June to December, 2009. Thereafter, the normal year would resume from January to December, 2010. I now wish to report that this work plan was developed and approved by your Committee and is currently being implemented.

Construction of Committee Rooms

Mr Speaker, Parliamentary Reforms have gained ground in opening up Parliament and making it more accessible to the public. This success has led to an increase in the number of visitors to Parliament who wish to observe the proceedings of the House, get more information on Parliament or participate in committee proceedings. This increase in the number of people wishing to participate in or observe committee proceedings has highlighted the need to increase the ability of Parliament Buildings to cope with the larger numbers of people. The committee rooms, in their current state, can only accommodate a small number of members of the public at a time. Consequently, the need to increase their capacity to conform to the increased interest on the part of the public was recognised. In this regard, the construction of new committee rooms commenced on 1st April, 2008. The construction is funded by the co-operating partners under the Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability (PEMFA) Reform Programme. The works include construction of five new committee rooms with a capacity of up to fifty persons and thirty-two offices.

Sir, this construction project has reached an advanced stage with 88 per cent of the work completed as at 19th October, 2009. However, the project is behind schedule by eight weeks. This means that the projected completion date for the construction is now December, 2009 as opposed to the original target date of 31st October, 2009. However, great effort is being made to ensure that there is no further undue delay in completing the construction.

Construction of Constituency Offices

Sir, I wish to report that the construction of constituency offices was flagged off with the laying of a foundation stone at the Rufunsa site by the hon. Mr Speaker on 6th August, 2009. An initial four offices will be constructed in 2009 at Chasefu, Masaiti, Mwembeshi and Rufunsa. The National Housing Authority (NHA) has already moved onto all the four sties and the offices will be constructed simultaneously. It has been projected that the construction of the offices will be completed by February, 2010. The objective is to, eventually, have offices constructed in all the 150 constituencies.

Sir, your Committee have seriously taken the hon. Mr Speaker’s directive that all constituency offices be constructed near nomination centres. To this end, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and the local authorities will be consulted during the process of selecting construction sites.

Expansion of Parliament Radio

Sir, I wish to report that the coverage of Parliament Radio has now been extended to Solwezi, Mansa and Kasama.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Work at the sites in Chipata and Mongu were delayed because of the difficult terrain. However, works at the Mongu site have reached an advanced stage while works at the Chipata site are due to commence soon. It is projected that works at both sites will be completed by December, 2009. This will mark the end of Phase II of the Expansion Programme under which all provincial centres will be covered. Phase III of the Expansion Programme will commence immediately afterwards and will entail extending the coverage of Parliament Radio to the rest of the country. I wish to pay tribute to the Danish Government for the support they have rendered to the Expansion Programme. I also wish to thank the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC), with whom the National Assembly has partnered, for the use of their infrastructure such as masts and transmission rooms across the country in this expansion programme.

Expectations for 2010 and beyond

Mr Speaker, allow me to give your Committee’s vision and expectations for 2010 and beyond. The House will recall that one of the goals of the Parliamentary Reforms is to increase the independence of Parliament. To this end, the House approved the recommendation of the ad hoc Committee on Reforms that was constituted in 1999 that a Parliamentary Service Commission be created. The commission will ensure the autonomy of Parliament and make it more independent of the Executive and more in control of its affairs. The creation of the Parliamentary Service Commission is awaiting the conclusion of the constitutional review process. Your Committee are hopeful that the National Assembly’s proposal regarding the commission will be adopted by the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) and, ultimately, be included in the new Constitution.

Sir, the House will also recall that there are plans on the table for the construction of a visitors/media centre. This centre is intended to provide a facility where visitors and members of the media can be received. This centre will distribute passes to the galleries, conduct tours of the facilities, control limited public access to the library, distribute informational and educational materials about the National Assembly and serve as an overall information centre for public inquiries. It will also serve as a station for journalists to file their stories on the proceedings of Parliament to their respective media houses. The presence of a visitors/media centre will lead to an increase in public awareness on the proceedings of Parliament. Following a commitment from the Government of the People’s Republic of China, your Committee are confident that construction of the visitors/media centre will commence in 2010.

I wish to inform the House that in addition to the construction of offices, there are plans to further strengthen constituency offices to make them operate more efficiently. Funds have been secured to provide solar power to most rural offices that do not have electricity supply. Other activities planned include the provision of fax machines where requisite infrastructure is available and there is provision of internet connectivity. We also plan to continue enhancing the capacity of the staff in these offices through training in effective management of offices.

Your Committee is also mobilising funds to enable hon. Members of Parliament undertake outreach activities in their constituencies.

Your Committee further hope that more funds will be provided to the National Assembly, incrementally, to ensure that all the seventy-three approved recommendations are implemented in the near future. Some activities that the Committee expect to implement in 2010 include the purchase of motor cycles for all constituency offices, completion of the Parliament Radio Expansion Programme and digitalisation of the library.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, allow me to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to all our co-operating partners for their invaluable support and contributions to the Parliamentary Reforms Programme, in particular, DFID, the European Commission, Irish Aid and the United Nations Development Programme.

I, further commend the Government, through the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, for their consistent support and funding to the Parliamentary Reforms Programme.

Sir, may I also express my gratitude to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the invaluable assistance rendered to your Committee.

Sir, last but not the least, I wish to thank you, personally, for your inspiration and wise guidance given to your Committee throughout the year. I also want to thank you for giving us the opportunity to serve on your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the motion, I wish to thank the mover for the articulate manner in which he has moved the motion. In addition, Sir, allow me to thank him, as the Chairman of your Committee, for ably steering and presiding over the deliberations of the often intricate and difficult issues considered by your Committee.

Mr Speaker, it is not my intention to repeat what the Chairman already ably stated as he moved the motion, nor is it my intention to reproduce the Committee’s report in my debate.

However, allow me to underscore some of the salient points covered by your Committee and contained in this report.

Sir, as the mover of the motion has already indicated, a lot has been achieved under the capacity building component of the Parliamentary Reforms Programme (PRP) III in year 1. These achievements were in spite of the numerous challenges which included the following:

(i) the Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with co-operating partners was signed late in the year at the end of May, 2008, which contributed to the delay in the release of project funds; 

(ii) the release of funds was further delayed following a problem in the transfer of funds from the co-operating partners through the Bank of Zambia;

(iii) the volatility in the exchange rates resulted in procurement of goods and services being made at costs significantly higher than budgeted for;

(iv) tender processes, though necessary, are also lengthy and this, coupled with the delayed funding, led to some activities to purchase items or services being further delayed;

(v) tender processes for the purchase of various items were also slowed down due to unreasonable demands being made by some suppliers; and

(vi) the unanticipated Presidential elections in October, 2008, affected a number of activities under the Year 1 Work Plan that involved hon. Members of Parliament, as the House went on an unscheduled break and a number of activities were postponed.

Sir, the House will recall that the larger part of the PRP III, in monetary terms, is infrastructure development which is critical to meeting the goals of the Parliamentary Reforms. However, the required funds are currently unavailable. Therefore, the Committee are of the view that the Government should increase support to the Parliamentary Reforms, particularly to infrastructure development.

Mr Speaker, the inadequacy of funds can be clearly seen in the construction of constituency offices. The Government released funds in 2009 to enable the National Assembly construct four offices. At this rate, it will take almost thirty-eight years to construct offices in all the 150 constituencies. The picture looks even gloomier if one takes into consideration the imminent delimitation exercise. Therefore, the Committee proposes that the Government should explore the possibility of directing part of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF), in future budgets, to the construction of constituency offices. This way, the construction of constituency offices project can be completed in reasonable time.

Sir, in conclusion, allow me to express gratitude to the Government for the support rendered to the Parliamentary Reforms. In addition, I wish to reiterate the Chairperson’s expression of gratitude to the co-operating partners that are supporting the reforms.

Mr Speaker, I beg to second.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, if I do not speak, the people of Namwala might think …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: … that things are going the other way.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: I thank you, Mr Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to be the first one to rise after the seconder of the motion.

I would like to support this motion and, in supporting it, I would like to deal with the issue of the independence of Parliament and that of hon. Members of Parliament …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … that evolves on the Floor of this House, with a clear mind and with no regard to any other ultra issues.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I think that this matter of the independence of Parliament and Members of Parliament is critical and needs to be reviewed. It is only the other year when hon. Members of Parliament, in this august House, decided to put together the National Constitution Conference law. No sooner than the hon. Members of Parliament put that National Constitution Conference law in place and proceeded to the Mulungushi International Conference Centre than a political party decided that it would not participate in the deliberations of creating the supreme law of the land which they, themselves, created.

Ms Lundwe: Tell them!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, some of the most brilliant hon. Members of Parliament decided …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

 Interruptions

Mr Speaker: A point order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Sir, you have guided us that issues that are before the courts of law must not be discussed in this House. The hon. Member of Parliament, who is debating now, is referring to a political party, the Patriotic Front (PF), which …

Hon. Government Members: He did not mention it!

Mr Kambwili: … made a decision not to have its members participate in NCC. This matter is actively in court. Therefore, is he in order to refer to a matter that has not been resolved in the courts of law? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: The Chair is not up to date on the matter that the Hon. Member for Roan has raised. Who has taken who to court on this matter?

Hon. Government Members: Themselves!

Mr Speaker: The thrust of the debate was that a law was made here …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: … by all hon. Members of Parliament that required them to go to NCC and debate, among other things, a commission referred to in the mover’s debate, the Parliamentary Service Commission. That was mentioned by the mover of the motion. Therefore, that could be one of the issues that are debated at NCC freely.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The reference is that a political party, which he did not name, barred its hon. Members of Parliament from going to NCC.

Mr Magande: To do their job!

Mr Speaker: Instead, they found, as I have heard now, themselves in court elsewhere.

Ms Lundwe: Ati elsewhere!

Mr Speaker: Now, unfortunately, I know that His Honour the Vice-President and Learned Minister of Justice, our chief advisor in this House, has been officially delayed elsewhere. However, I am looking elsewhere to find out if, indeed, this matter is in court.

Mr Lubinda Stood up.

Mr Speaker: Order!

I am consulting. I have to rule on the basis of the legal consultation.

Mr Mbewe: Lubinda, nkala pansi!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: There is an aspect of this matter being in court and it relates to those hon. Members who have not gone to NCC being sued, I believe, …

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Speaker: … by someone else.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Now, for the time being, I would like to hear some more …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … regarding whether the hon. Member for Namwala would be careful, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … now that he is aware of some aspects of this case being in court, to go round those aspects which are in court and debate, particularly with the freedom that he is talking about.

May he continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

Hon. Members: Hammer, now!

Major Chizhyuka: In as much as I will try to be hypothetical, I will veer this matter to the independence of the hon. Member of Parliament. Permit me to say that as a result of some of these practices, a Member of Parliament is slowly turning into an endangered species.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: He is being endangered by machinations in certain organisations which legally are not conforming to the law created by this National Assembly, which is charged with the responsibility, specifically to make the laws of the land, Zambia.

It is only the other day that it was revealed that if a Member of Parliament provides specific information regarding the intricacies of a certain organisation, …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: I am saying that I am veering round.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Ordinarily, I would have been, …

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: … as you know, Mr Speaker, I have been voted to come and sit on this seat by the people of Namwala.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: In Namwala, where I come from, we have a way of comparing human nature …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … to wildlife. If, for instance, I say that Mr X is a lion …

Mr Speaker: Order!

That is a fable.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: It is not allowed in this House.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You may debate, but factual matters.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I will leave this issue by stating that the independence of hon. Members of Parliament, as far as the freedom of speech is concerned and, as enshrined in Article 12 of the Laws of Zambia, should be enhanced so that they can craft the laws and proceed to institutions such as the one going on at the Mulungushi International Conference Centre, without hindrance. This will enable hon. Members of Parliament debate, on the Floor of this House, as sent by the people who elected them …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … without fear or favour.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, constituency offices have been indicated in the Yellow Book. I can only appeal to the wisdom of this House that when the delimitation exercise, which appears to be receiving support from NCC, has been conducted, this House will not rubber stamp it, but critically debate the issues surrounding constituency offices and the number of constituencies.

Mr Speaker …

Major Chibamba: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Major Chibamba: Mr Speaker is Hon. Kambwili in order to threaten to beat me up.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: From his seat?

Major Chibamba: Yes, he is threatening to beat me up from where he is seated. Is he in order, Sir?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Shiwang’andu claims that he is being threatened with a beating …

Laughter

 Mr Speaker: … by the hon. Member for Roan. Obviously, I cannot convene a court right now to find out whether that allegation is true or not. However, if it is, I must warm that no hon. Member of Parliament here can threaten another hon. Member with violence. The issues we debate here are those that promote peace and order in the system. If any hon. Member wishes to join the sport called boxing, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … this is not the place for it. The hon. Member of Parliament is free to see the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … who will escort him or her to a proper gym outside this House …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … where facilities for such are. I, certainly, will not allow the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu to go there. However, the hon. Member for Roan is free to go there.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I hope that what the hon. Member for Shiwang’andu is alleging is not true. I want to caution that no threat of violence is allowed between or among any civilised individuals, whether hon. Members of Parliament or street children. It is not allowed. Therefore, take note of that.

I had to make a ruling on this even though what was happening was done while the hon. Members were seated. This is a serious matter and I had to make a ruling on it now. It is not allowed and it is never done.

The hon. Member for Namwala may continue, please.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, before the point of order, I was talking about constituency offices. The seconder of the motion said that it would take some thirty-eight years to complete the construction of constituency offices. I am talking about 150 constituencies only. You may be aware that we are moving towards creating another 150 constituency offices, meaning that there will be 300 constituencies. This further means that if the resources of the Republic do not improve, it will take seventy-six years to complete that project. This is why I said that it is better for us, as Parliament, having been mandated by the people to discuss these matters critically, to make a decision.

What is required for an hon. Member of Parliament to serve a constituency such as Zambezi? For the hon. Member of Parliament to go to Zambezi and back, he uses a minimum of three drums of fuel and about K5million. Sometimes, he will even fail to visit his constituency monthly as a result of these costs. Should we, therefore, create another constituency office in Zambezi? If we do this, we will be doubling the problems. Is it prudent that instead of doubling the problems, we enhance the office of the Member of Parliament by …

Hon. Opposition Member: Sense!

Major Chizhyuka: I have always talked sense except when I deal with pigs.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order!

You shall withdraw that unparliamentary expression.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, the expression “pigs” is withdrawn.

Mr Speaker, should we be multiplying the problems by two or enhance the power and capacity of the Member of Parliament? For a constituency such as Zambezi, it is not wise to divide Chinyamalitapi and Wilomboi which are areas in the North-Western Province close to the boarder with Angola. We should provide the hon. Member of Parliament with the capacity to reach those areas more regularly and attend to the problems of the people in his constituency. The solution for this does not lie in dividing the constituency, but in enhancing the capacity of the hon. Member of Parliament. How is the constituency office established? How is it structured? What capacity has it got to get the hon. Member of Parliament, once he is in the constituency, to operate effectively? These are the questions that we should ask ourselves.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: At the end of the day, when we cry for more constituencies, we are actually crying for more money, and yet here we are, as hon. Members of Parliament, asking for roads, clinics and schools to be constructed in our constituencies. We want to create more problems, and yet a solution is available if we prudently sit down to deal with this matter.

Mr Speaker, as a rider to this, I looked at the Kenyan situation. In Kenya, hon. Members of Parliament have offices across the road from their Parliament and they are capacitated.

There are times when, for instance, I want to convince the Government that putting an M–Phase in Lusaka West, an area containing 43 per cent of underground water for Lusaka, is the wrong idea. Let us put the M–phase in Lusaka.

If the office of the hon. Member of Parliament in Lusaka is staffed with, for instance, with two graduates, one of them a lawyer and the other a development studies fellow, the hon. Member of Parliament can task these officers to conduct research and bring a holistic document on the Floor of this House to show that it is better this way than the other. So to me, I think, what is important is not the issue of increasing the number of constituencies, but dealing with the enhancement of the office of the hon. Member of Parliament so that the debates that evolve on the Floor of this House are of a high quality.

Mr Speaker, how many times have you asked us not to drop the level of debate? You have told us this over and over again. Therefore, if we can enhance the office of the hon. Member of Parliament by employing the right staff, providing the right materials for the constituency office out there instead of increasing the number of constituencies, we will be dealing with matters of this nation more prudently, intelligently and better for the development of this country.

 Mr, Speaker, this is my contribution to this motion. I thank you.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, in support of the motion on the Floor of the House, I do not support the idea of requesting CDF to go towards the construction or expansion of constituency offices. This is because the amount that is already provided for is meagre for the constituency to be run effectively. We have been requesting for CDF to be increased to as much as K5 billion per constituency. This is the money that our communities are seeing the results from and is, at least, prudently controlled and accounted for and that is the money that we would like our communities to benefit from.

 Mr Speaker, I would like your Committee to consider the provision of houses for all hon. Members of Parliament in Lusaka. I do not know why your Committee left this out. We have been talking about helping hon. Members of Parliament stop indulging in wrong activities. Matters of HIV/AIDS and other vices are of great concern. I strongly suggest that your Committee consider building houses where hon. Members of Parliament should live with their spouses.
  
Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, I am a man who believes in a few words and this is my only contribution to the motion.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Mr Speaker, may I thank you for affording me this opportunity to say a few words regarding the Parliamentary Reforms and Modernisation Committee’s Report.

 Mr Speaker, from the outset, I want to admit that I do not have the intellectual capacity that my younger brother, Hon. Mulongoti, has. I think that, as a researcher, I am on the side of distinguished debaters in this country and this House in particular.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, I want to say that there are people who are either ashamed to go into the villages to campaign for whatever political party, but they want to come here and demean this House and hon. Members of this House. Therefore, I want to say that if we recognise that we have three arms of Government, that is the National Assembly or Legislature, Judiciary and Executive, no attempt, whatsoever, by anyone, can try to devalue the independence of the National Assembly.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, it is becoming fashionable nowadays for anybody to denounce me or even the speech that is made on the Floor of this House. You will find that it is challenged from outside. That is extremely bad. All of us should confine our debates here because we are like a co-operative. Hon. Members of Parliament from either side should work as a co-operative team. Listening to views of others is very important, whether those views are against me, the Government or any political party. We should have the art of listening to each other and see the relevance of a particular debate.

Mr Speaker, when one is referred to as hon. Member of Parliament, he/she should try to justify that. When an hon. Member of Parliament is walking in the streets, he/she must know that people are watching. Therefore, if you speak carelessly, they can finish you off and you will not stop them because they know that you are an hon. Member of Parliament who has wrongly voted for by the people. As hon. Member of Parliament, you are devaluing yourself because of your behaviour and utterances.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Nr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, as hon. Member of Parliament, the way you walk and dress must be exemplary. Otherwise, it is taboo for you to be referred to as honourable, when you are not. You are reducing your authority. Every time you appear in the press, you do something which is embarrassing. Therefore, let us guard the independence of this House jealously.

 Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, it is becoming fashionable nowadays even for people who are learned to incite people to rebel against the law that is made by this House.

Mr Speaker, some papers are trying to form Parliament outside this House.

 Laughter

 Mr Munkombwe: It is does not mater which political party it is, whether it is MMD and is trying to do something that would be regarded as illegal in this House, Hon. Members of Parliament must stand up and say, “No that is not the way tings should be.” Can we defend our existence in here? Nobody else will do that for us, but ourselves. We are a government on our own.

Sir, other people can have ideas, including superfluous ones, but it is up to us to refine those ideas into law. When they are made into laws, then nobody else can judge anyone except the courts.

We must be mindful of the fact that justice is not only meant to affect people we do not like. When justice is carried out by a court of law in favour of a person we do not like, it must not make us rebel. Where is the independence of the Judiciary? Where is the independence of Parliament? Where is it?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: If we are not careful, by the time we get to 2011, the country will be ungovernable. In whatever form, nobody is disallowed to dream. Everybody is entitled to their own dreams, but not all dreams can be interpreted into reality.

Mr Mushili: Why not?

Mr Munkombwe: We are all Zambians. One day, I might find myself out of Government and whoever will be in government that time will be leading this country. In whatever you do, always remember that there is a consequence or reward despite the time it takes. Therefore, I am pleading with you all to hear us.

Mr Speaker, today, some church leaders have shown the interest of wanting to come into Parliament. Except that they are too proud, for example, to go to Kalomo and say, “Can you vote for me?” The people will say, “What about the man who lives here?” They are too proud to stand for elections, but the only thing they are interested in is to divide us. For example, some would come up to me and say, “You are a super person” but let the people say I am super.

Sir, I am a former member of the Central Committee in the United National Independence Party (UNIP) and was committed to the forums we had at that time. For example, if I was a member of NEC or the NCC, or in whatever capacity we were called in our various parties, I could stand up and defend what was right, particularly the right things that were made in here. Therefore, I am urging all of us in here to stand up and say, “Yes, I belong to you. You are my leader and I like you, but what you are telling me is not what is right.” Let us stand up and not be scared.

Mr Speaker, there are levels of understanding in leadership. Unfortunately, some people may have been in this House for too long, but only went out as empty as they entered it.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Some people may be here today, voted in genuinely by the people, but they will go out as raw as they came in. They will go out as raw and primitive as they came into the House.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: However, for those that want to work, the word ‘primitive’ is not right to describe them, but I do not want to be told what words I must use because I am a very careful …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … in choosing words.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I will not react to anybody who was lawfully elected by the people. This is the reason I am working well with the people on your left because the people chose them and we will only meet in 2011 for the elections.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I had just finished the point I was on. I wish to move on to another point but, firstly, I wish to urge the hon. Members of this House to continue supporting the independence of hon. Members of this House. If you do not like an hon. Member of Parliament from either side, it does not matter because he is still an hon. Member of Parliament. That is what the system we inherited from the British people entails. Even though we may have some form of education, we can never be referred to the same way as, for example, “Hon. Jack Mwiimbu” because he is a learned person.

In this regard, I want to appeal to the learned group of people …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … to uphold the independence of the Judiciary. If not, we will be asking people to say, “You convict that one because I do not like him.”

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Where is the independence of the Judiciary? We beg of you learned people. Twakomba, please, we beg.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Sometimes, it becomes slightly strange to note that the learned people show indications of being illusory of the law and become inciters against us …

Mr Magande: Rebel!

Mr Munkombwe: … who should be independent. That should not be encouraged.

Sir, there is a need for reforms. This Parliamentary Committee, under the chairmanship of one of the liberal learned persons, …

Mr Magande: Rebel!

Mr Munkombwe: …no, liberal and not rebel.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Do not force me to say things I do not support.

This Committee has done a commendable job. If people call them learned, then you should know that some of them are members of the Bench. With my little knowledge, that is what I think it says. Senior lawyers also qualify to sit on the Bench. I do not know if just any lawyer can qualify to sit on the Bench because some lawyers have traces of mischief.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Real lawyers are members of the Bench. Whatever a lawyer does, is closely matched with his job.

Mr Speaker, I would like to support the Committee’s report fully and request that we implement whatever recommendations have been made. The effectiveness of a member belonging to a system is shown in the way he expresses himself/herself to his/her party. If you are a person who defends your own position alone even when you know that your party is doing wrong things, then you can get out …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … because you are not effective any more. Sometimes, you are punished for saying what is right in your party, in this case you should subtract yourself. In politics it is about addition and not subtraction. Once you are removed from the party, it is like a person cutting off one of his or her fingers. That person will not be normal any more. The person will have four fingers instead of five.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That is not healthy and so we must protect ourselves, but with reasonableness. I thought I should make the comments because I regard myself, at my age, as a stabiliser in the country. That is what I am, although I am not forcing people who do not like me to like me because I have been loved by so many people over the years.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Mr Speaker, those who do not like me have a choice to do so.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

This is your report. It does not refer to anybody else to take action. You will take the action yourselves and I hear one voice. Do those hon. Members who are indicating have something different to say?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Since we have to conclude this very quickly so that you may go out there and implement what you have recommended, I shall recognise only two and these two hon. Members will undertake one new point within a handful of minutes.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I stand to support the motion. In supporting it, I first of all want to state that I have never been a violent person and that if anybody …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … insinuates that I am violent, that is besides the point.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I am good at talking and taking issues head-on, but I do not fight and I will never fight.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, in supporting the report of your Committee, I wish to state that Parliament Radio is a welcome initiative, but what is missing is that we have not sensitised the people about it. Most of the people do not know that it exists. I have gone around my constituency and told people to tune in to 94.1 for the Copperbelt, but most of the people have shown ignorance about the existence of Parliament Radio.

Mr Speaker, my appeal to your Committee is that we must find a way of advertising Parliament Radio so that the people can know what their representatives are saying on the Floor of the House.

Mr Speaker, in this era, we need to go digital by televising live Parliamentary proceedings. If you look at Kenya and South Africa, you will find that there is a specific channel for Parliament where Parliamentarians articulate issues on behalf of their constituents.

The offices that have been established are a step forward but, unfortunately, they have brought a lot of problems to hon. Members of Parliament because these offices are not adequately funded. In constituencies, hon. Members have been turned into katenga malilo, social welfare officers and so on and so forth. When you go to the office, the only problems the people bring are that they need a coffin, school fees and that they have no food. Now, without funding, most hon. Members of Parliament will avoid going to their offices.

Mr Speaker, when I go to the constituency, because I am one of those hon. Members who go to the constituency office every Saturday, I find more than fifty people there and the story is the same. It is about food, rentals, school fees, coffin and transporting bodies from the mortuary to the burial sites. My suggestion is that we need to station social welfare officers at the constituency offices so that they can ‘andle’…

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … the issues as they come. You know that the main role of an hon. Member is to make laws …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, I rarely rise on points of order, but is the hon. Member for Roan, who debated against the hearses bought by the Government, in order to complain that he needs hearses in order to transport bodies for burial.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Minister is reminding the hon. Member for Roan that there is, in fact, a facility to alleviate his misery with regard to funerals and things like that.

May he continue, please?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, that only goes to show that the hon. Minister does not go to his constituency because if he did, he would find poor people who cannot afford to use those hearses. The Government must know that the constituency offices need to be funded adequately so that we can help our people accordingly.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the motion. It is important that the flag of the National Assembly is put at all your offices. We want to commend you for the transport that has been given to us, but one thing I would like to emphasise is that we have yet a mile to go because people are not able to distinguish between the role of an hon. Member and that of social workers like my colleague, Hon. Kambwili, has said..

Mr Speaker, sensitisation programmes should be embarked upon for the people to appreciate the role of this office. For example, in Bahati, groups of people gather at your office and they ask for a National Assembly flag. The national flag is there, but they want the one for the National Assembly. They are saying this because they want to distinguish the National Assembly office from the political offices because some parties have a tendency of going there to politic instead of doing that in the right places. They turn the National Assembly offices into a venue for political gatherings and so they want a flag with a mace on it to symbolise that the constituency offices are not political party offices where party programmes and functions are conducted.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwansa: Mr Speaker, I thank you for this privilege to conclude the debate and I am grateful to the hon. Members who have constructively contributed to the motion. Suffice only to say that this is our initial report. It is first one of its kind and we are grateful for the suggestions made by hon. Members.

Sir, with your permission, we will be looking at those concerns and will report on them in future.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in 
the Chair]

VOTE 13 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – K297,280,814,889).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Chairperson, as an hon. Member of Parliament representing a rural constituency, I always ask myself what is in this vote for my rural constituency. Yes, I have taken time to look at the Head for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and what catches my eye, immediately, is the allocation of K72.960,475,500 to the Rural Electrification Fund. To me, this is very important because I know that the ministry, through the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), is spearheading the electrification of rural constituencies.

Madam Chairperson, I hope, this time around, your ministry will connect Chasefu to the Malawi electricity grid. Why is it important that this is done? When Lundazi Boma was connected to the Malawi electricity grid, it passed through Chasefu Constituency straight to Lundazi Boma and, with the Government’s wisdom, from there, electricity was connected to a sub-centre called Mwase, which is very far away from Chasefu. As if that was not enough, the Government continued connecting another place, which is not a sub-centre, called Lumezi. What is surprising is that this electricity was connected to Lundazi through Chasefu Constituency, but to date, for unknown reasons, no attempt has been made to connect it to the electricity grid. However, when I look at the K72.960,475,500, it gives me hope that, this time around, the hardworking hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development and his officials will take a kind and sympathetic look at us, the people of Chasefu Constituency, because we have been crying for this for a long time.

I hope something will be done because Lundazi District has three constituencies, namely Lundazi, Lumezi and Chasefu. However, out of these three constituencies, only Chasefu is not connected to the electricity grid although the grid entered Zambia through Chasefu.

Mr Speaker, I also note that under the Rural Electrification Programme, a place called Mwata, in Chasefu Constituency, has been earmarked for connection to the Malawi electricity grid. I hope, this time around, the Government will do the needful because the people of Chasefu also want to see lights. As it is now, this tunnel of electricity connection is dark, but with some of the figures shown in this vote, I can see some flickering light and hope that, perhaps, come 2010, something will be done in terms of connecting Chasefu Constituency to the Malawi electricity grid.

Madam Chairperson, yes, the other point for supporting this vote is that the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, on the Floor of this House, when he responded to a question that was raised in connection with the rehabilitation of dams, was very categorical in his answer. He admitted that, Luwelezi, Chaboli, Kayumbozhi dams, including Chasefu Constituency, would be attended to in 2010. With a sum of K3.1 billion allocated for maintenance of dams, I can safely say that there may be something for Chasefu Constituency in this particular vote, hence my supporting it.

Madam Chairperson, furthermore, in his response, the hon. Minister, on the Floor of the House, promised, again, that Lundazi Dam, which is very silted, was going to be worked on in 2010. Now that the money for that purpose is here, I hope that the Government will live up to its promise. I have no reason to doubt the hon. Minister because even his body language shows that he means well.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Member: Wakali kubeja kuli petrol.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Chairperson, indeed, another reason for supporting the vote for this ministry is Programme 15, Activity 01 − Installation of Wind Energy Systems – K187,000,000. Most of the rural constituencies in Zambia are in dire need of electricity and I hope some of the constituencies will be targeted so that Zambians in the rural areas can also start living like the Zambians along the line of rail. I hope places such as Shang’ombo and Lukulu West will be connected as well.

Madam Chairperson, on a very serious note, it is, indeed, good that there is a provision for the management of fuel supply under Programme 13, Activity 03 – Management of Petroleum Supply – K164,003,500. I hope, with this provision, the officials at the ministry will learn to plan the supply of fuel for this country. We have been having this problem of fuel shortages virtually every year and it does not augur well for a Government that plans and has technocrats. My appeal is that whatever the causes are, you, as a Government, must find a solution to this because it is your responsibility to solve problems of this nature. I know you will do it.

Madam Chairperson, now, there is also one issue which is worrying me, notwithstanding the fact that you have allocated K50 million and this issue relates to negotiating settlement of ex-CAPCO assets. I remember that as far back as 1990, negotiations relating to the settlement of CAPCO assets were in motion.

Should it really take more than twenty years to resolve a problem with a neighbouring country such as Zimbabwe? What has gone wrong? Has the Government got no technocrats to sort out this problem?

I would like to appeal to the Government to give this problem undivided attention because it does not augur well to have a problem remain unresolved for more than twenty years. I am familiar with this problem and I know that it can be resolved but, perhaps, somewhere along the line, some technocrats may have turned their backs on it. It is important that this problem is resolved because it will enhance the good relationship between Zambia and Zimbabwe.

May I end by supporting the vote and urging the hon. Minister to stick to the promises which he has made in relation to Chasefu Constituency.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Madam Chairperson, I stand to support the meagre Vote of K297 billion for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. I take it that this budget is primarily to keep the ministry and the departments, thereto, running.

Madam Chairperson, the difficulty we have in energy and water development is the lack of investment. I do hope that when the hon. Minister replies, he will indicate to me one or two things that the ministry is doing to invest in energy and water development in the country other than the repair of the twenty-four dams. I take it the hon. Minister has that investment hidden somewhere under the carpet of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and we shall, therefore, cross that bridge when we get there.

Now, after forty-five years of independence, we should surely have moved away from playing the blame game a long time ago.

Mr Kambwili: What is happening to the system in here?

Mr Matongo: We should now be working in a determined and forward looking fashion. We have the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP), Vision 2030 and Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), but the things we hear in this Chamber are unfortunate. This ministry needs guidance in terms of inviting investment into the energy and water sectors, instead of being blamed for any crises in these sectors.  However, the blame is always on the hon. Minister and whoever is involved. I want to change this debate a little by saying that for as long as there is no ministry-aligned investment based on the five-year periods between elections, we shall continue approving, in this Chamber, recurrent expenditure, emoluments and ‘putting off fire’ across ministries.

Madam Chairperson, it is a fact that all the countries in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region, including South Africa, have not invested in energy over the last twenty-five years in a substantial manner. It is only on the Inga Dam in the Democratic Republic of Congo where there is some investment at the moment. Now, South Africa is interested in importing electricity from that dam and we will probably get to that ourselves. However, we should not forget that South Africa is going nuclear. It will stop using hydro-power soon and, I think, the hon. Minister is aware of that. Without depending on donors, it is our duty to save money to invest in mini-hydro schemes that will serve our communities.

Madam Chairperson, the other day, an hon. Minister was talking on Radio Phoenix and was saying that America is seeking investment opportunities in China and India, but he missed out one point. America has made investments in Japan. I have been to Japan to learn from its national plans and to defend competitions in terms of fair trade. It should be noted that sixty years ago, the Chinese closed themselves up from international trade to sort out their domestic investments. No wonder we now think that all roads, in terms of investment opportunities, lead there. They started development from their own bootstraps. In fact, the majority of them did not even have shoes at that time.

Dr Scott interjected.

Mr Matongo: I thank you. 

India PL 84 − I hope I am not speaking Greek − just a few years ago, was a food relief programme taking food from America to India. The Indians decided to work on domestic programmes to eradicate hunger. Today, we are running to India to ask them to help us develop a hydro scheme and they are dilly-dallying. Other countries have developed because of empowering their own people.

As for us, forty-five years after independence 40 per cent of the whole budget is still donor driven. I think we should be ashamed of ourselves. It is not a question of who to blame, but what collective leadership we have provided in this country to move it forward. What are we suggesting to move the country forward other than politicking? It is not a question of the Ruling Party fighting with the Opposition, but rather, an issue of collective leadership. What is it that is wrong with us here? The five years in between elections are all wasted on campaigning. When do we think of development?

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: The hon. Members on your right are in Government and, therefore, should provide leadership so that we all follow. We can blame any institution involved in energy and water, but no clean water will come if we do not start saving and investing in water. The people who are giving us boreholes are tired because they are the same people who are giving us food relief and are saying 40 per cent of the SADC region’s water resources are in this country, but we just let it flow.  This is a sign of donor fatigue.

I think we should not be proud of going to borrow from others. We should encourage our people to invest. The banks are just hoarding money and I have said this before to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning. I have told the hon. Minister to deal with the issue of interest rates so that Zambians can borrow from banks.

I would like to inform the hon. Minister that three days ago, I was pleased to read that the Deputy Governor of the Bank of Zambia had said that the Government would now shift to dealing with interest rates, instead of inflation. That is the money we will need for development because Zambians will be able to borrow, start investing and pay taxes to the Government, which should be invested in energy and water. It is this collective critical thinking that will move this country forward. It is not rational to think oil will arrive in the country as and when scheduled when our budget is being subsidised and the Government is borrowing heavily from the commercial sectors and other institutions.

I want to remind those of you who are not aware …

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Madam!

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, first of all, I would like to sincerely apologise to my elder brother here who is making a very intelligent and constructive debate. Is the House in order to continue listening to the debates when the radio transmission is broken? Yesterday, most of the listeners could not listen to what was happening in this House because of the same problem. We are denying the people out there access to Parliament Radio, even here, we are constantly disturbed in the ears. Is this the way the proceedings of this House will be handled, and yet the Standing Orders are very clear that we should not be disturbed? I need your serious ruling, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

The point of order is, indeed, a point of concern. As you can hear, my voice is not coming out clearly. It is up and down. However, we are in the House and the hon. Member may not know what is happening there. Even if we have this problem here in the House, people out there are working to rectify the problem. We seem to have a technical fault, but I do not think that we are really failing as a House to warrant adjournment. If it comes to that, definitely, a decision will be made. For now, can we see if we can continue.

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, it is useless for us in Zambia to think that the Indeni Oil Refinery is a useful investment. For me, it is a performing asset. Year in, year out, we have this problem.

Madam Chairperson, Zimbabwe, at its best and now, do not have a refinery. That is a fact. Their production and population, at their best, was performing without a refinery. There was a good reason for the construction of the TAZARA pipeline. It was because of the liberation wars in that country. Now, I put it to you, for how long are you going to invest money in a wasted asset? That factory, even if you wanted to bring crude oil from Angola which we already have in the North-Western Province in Chavuma, because its sulphur content is the same as that of Angola, will not be able to help you much.

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Mr Matongo: You see, I will not argue if I am informed.

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Matongo: I will continue ensuring that the asset is reviewed so that it serves the Zambian people correctly. Big economies such as Zimbabwe do not have such facilities, but here you keep on exempting the oil marketing companies that are providing fuel in Zimbabwe from paying tax. In the end, you start saying that you have no money.

Madam Speaker, I will not go beyond that, but it is a matter that we need to engage Zambians to debate. It is very important also to consider urging your colleagues, the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning and Commerce, Trade and Industry that we are running short of time. I will insist on asking why we cannot get money out of these huge interest rates that the banks are charging. Banks are all over the country saving our own money. The chief accountants from the ministries are opening accounts now to put in money in because of the budget we are releasing. Surely, can we not put our money in the Bank of Zambia so that we do not make these boffins on Cairo Road rich any richer by transmitting money out of this country at our expense? I urge you, and I believe we have considerable revolutionary in the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning who can do something about the interest rates that accrues to these people.

Madam Chairperson, I notice the Deputy Governor is ready to address that. Inflation is not yet over in this country. Therefore do not ignore this matter. The macro-economic paradigms may be correct, but what is on the ground is what the Zambian people receive as delivered. It is up to Cabinet and the collective leadership to start thinking and acting domestically and talking regionally and internationally.

I ask this Government to ensure that the capital budget, which I am requesting the hon. Minister to refer to in his reply on the vote under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning be strictly tied to the five-year plans. We have enough to debate in those spheres of development in the medium-term framework rather than worrying about who is associating with who.

Laughter

Mr Matongo: We should worry about our people who are in need of services such as clean water, energy, timely distribution of fertiliser and seed; and timely arrival, every year, of the importation of fuel. Surely, we should find permanent solutions in that regard and it is possible. We should also start thinking of other renewable energies, but alas, where do you start from when volumes of documents are there in the ministry, some of which I have seen. In fact, we rejoice and laugh at America going to China. We should get money from the banking sector, cut your Government expenditure and channel this money into economic development and investment. That is the way forward and that is what I am appealing to you all hon. Members here to think likewise and not only engage in character assassination, but criticism based on their performance.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Madam Chairperson, I will be very brief. However, let me start by saying one thing that is extremely obvious. Water is life. The Ministry of Energy and Water Development, therefore handles life.

Madam Chairperson, my colleagues who spoke before me lamented the little investment towards water development. Hon. Matongo lamented the fact that 40 per cent of the water in the sub-region is domiciled here, our beautiful country of Zambia, and yet very little of that water is tapped and used for the benefit of our people. Year after year, we are told about various funds meant to open up and construct earth dams. We are also told about funds that are meant to improve the irrigation sector in the country and also about money that is supposed to deliver water from underground to the taps, and yet year in and year out, the report that we get is full of lamentable failures.

Madam Chairperson, earlier in the year, the hon. Member for Namwala, raised a very important issue here of how we are ill-managing our underground water resources. Today, there are some structures in the City of Lusaka which run a risk of collapse because they are sitting on lime, which, because of the amount of water they are absorbing from the underground, are now choking. As a result of this, the capacity of the underground to hold such pressure is diminishing. Besides this, because of the poor management of our water resource, you find that in a city such as Lusaka, there is a hole every 20 metres that has been drilled to extract water from underground, and yet there is a lot of water that is coming from up north and Nchanga Mine which is being allowed to flow freely to the Indian Ocean.

I once asked what this ministry was doing with regard to the Zambezi Action Plan and the Zambezi River Authority whose headquarters are in Lusaka. The answer I got made me realise that I was talking to colleagues, to borrow Hon. Matongo’s word, who are ill-informed, but they are the ones who should be well informed. They are the ones who should come to this House and tell us the policies they are putting in place to ensure that our water resources are well managed.

Madam, way back in 1996, when some in this House were butcher boys for Hon. Lupungu, I …

Mr Mabenga: Mr Lupunga.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Lupunga, thank you very much. And today, they pride themselves for being very popular and deem everybody else less than they are. During that time, I was involved in designing the Water Resources Action Programme at the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. The question that I had for the hon. Minister is, why is it that thirteen years after the technocrats at the ministry came up with that very important Water Resources Action Plan, nothing has happened?

Hon. Opposition Member: They failed.

Mr Lubinda: Lamentably, Madam. The allocation for the Water Resources Action Plan is actually diminishing. Whereas last year, there was K90 million allocated, there is only K50 million this year, and yet that programme is supposed to come up with a national policy on the water resource management in Zambia. That is also the plan that should come up with a policy that would determine who and where people are allowed to drill a hole in the ground. Today, everybody just goes and taps our water indiscriminately without any control whatsoever, and yet that plan was meant to guide us.

I am aware, Madam, that the technocrats at the Ministry of Energy and Water Development came up with a proposed National Water Policy, but to date, that is gathering dust at Cabinet Office. Why is the Cabinet so busy? They are very quick at adopting all sorts of policies, but they are neglecting this very important policy.

Madam, three years ago, there were some hon. Members of this House who were invited to give some information and ideas to the technocrats at the Ministry of Energy and Water Development at a great cost to this country. Hon. Members gave valuable information and contributions to the development of the Water Resources Management Bill. Three years along the line, listening to the hon. Minister’s policy statement yesterday, there was no mention whatsoever of the Water Resources Management Bill. We cannot afford to ill-manage such an important resource. Whereas other people are drawing water from the Zambezi River and transporting it across their deserts, we are watching it as though it was a wasting asset.

Madam, the water resources in this country are supposed to be the drivers of the economy.

Hon. Opposition Member: Yes.

Mr Lubinda: You can talk about the hydro-electricity sector by attracting investment, but for as long as your water resources are not well managed, you have it all wrong. There is no investor who will come and invest in hydro-power unless they are sure that the legal framework in which they are going to invest is going to protect that resource. As things are, how do you expect an investor to invest millions of dollars in the Kafue Lower if there is no legal framework to protect the water in the Kafue River not to be channelled outside Zambia before it reaches the gorge? You do not expect investment that way. The investors want to ensure that if they invest their money, the water will continue to flow and you can only do that if you come up with a legal framework to protect it. It is only this House that is mandated to come up with such a legal framework. Time has come, my dear colleagues.

While priding ourselves in how popular we are and how many people will come and say we are good debaters, it is time for us to debate pragmatically for the betterment of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Besides this, it is time for us to stop this business of talk the talk. Time has come my colleagues to walk that talk. If you were to add all the moneys that had been approved by this House for water resource development, this country would have been far ahead had all that money been released. The problem that is there is the big disjoint between the intention and practice. This House approves money for irrigation and dam construction in the Southern Province where they have been threatened that there might be a severe desert, and yet at the end of the year, that money is not released.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Where is the problem? My dear colleagues, as far as I am concerned, the problem is that of ill management. Time has come for us to manage the resources of this country jealously.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: The Government must remember they are not ours. We are keeping them in custody for posterity and unless we protect these resources now, we all shall be judged lamentable failures.

Madam, I am really hopeful that as the hon. Minister winds up debate, he shall make mention of the fact that in the next legislative sitting of this House, the Water Resources Management Bill will be brought. I hope he will tell us where he will get the extra K40 million that he has lost for the Water Resources Action Programme because this is supposed to steer the movement in the management of our water resource. How can we, as a country, allow a fly-in-by-night investor to come and infect all the fish and leave without any compensation asked for whatsoever? Even after doing this, you continue to be friends and even pride yourselves in having brought investment into Zambia. What a disaster!

Madam, I would be fail in my duty if I concluded without talking a little about the petroleum sector. The petroleum sector in this country has been a ceremony, particularly with regard to fuel shortages. Whereas sometimes the Kuomboka Ceremony can be postponed or cancelled because there is insufficient water, we never fail to celebrate the annual fuel shortage ceremony.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We have to celebrate fuel shortages every year in this country. What kind of management is this that every year, you know that there will be fuel shortage. You do not plan for it until the fuel shortage catches up with you?

I want to remind this House that in 1996, this very MMD Government, faced with a fuel shortage, put together a Cabinet Committee which also attracted technocrats. The Committee was funded by the Department for International Development (DFID). They produced a very huge voluminous report on how the fuel sector in Zambia should be managed to avoid shortages. That report is gathering dust and we now want to come up with new ideas. You cannot come up with new ideas before you implement the ideas that you gave to yourselves. Why are you shelving such important ideas? You want to keep experimenting, and yet you know the answers. The answer lies in being more patriotic and being less greedy. Do not use the fuel sector to enrich yourselves. It is extremely dangerous.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Talking about that, it is scandalous for the President to be misled over such an important issue.

We know that the energy sector is as important as the security of a country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: If you mislead the President on the security of the country, you do not deserve to be invited to State House to dine and wine. Instead, you deserve to be dismissed.

Mr Kambwili: You resign on your own.

Mr Lubinda: If the President does not dismiss you, you must have the honour to stand straight and say that you have failed the duty.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Lubinda: Whoever it is that has misled this country to the extent that we have lost so much money as a result of lack of production, must be punished. They must be brought to book.

Madam Chairperson, let me end by saying that this country belongs to all of us. When we say there is a fuel shortage, it is not because we want to demean anybody, but because we suffer the problem of our constituents going without fuel. There is totally no reason for anyone to bury their head in sand and say there is no fuel shortage when everybody can see that there is. It does not help us at all.

Mr D. Mwila: Landa!

Mr Lubinda: When we raise these matters, it is not just for the sake of criticising our colleagues, but because we want to bring their attention to the problem.

Dr Puma: It is temporary.

Mr Lubinda: I agree. It is a temporary problem because this is a temporary Government.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: I salute Hon. Dr Puma for reminding me because I had almost forgotten that.

Laughter

Mr Lubinda: Madam, we, on the left side of the House, spend time to research these matters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We spend time to compare notes amongst ourselves.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: We also spend time to consult with our colleagues on the right. It is only when they decide to put cotton wool in their ears that we scream. If they listen to us, we will have no reason whatsoever to scream. If they can remove the cotton buds from their ears and listen to the problems that we present on the Floor of this House then, together, we shall march forward.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Our intention, on the left side of the House, is not to derail the programmes of our Government. We know that they have the authority to govern this country until the next election. We, therefore, want to assist them. However, if they want to assist us to campaign, they are welcome.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Please, create more shortages and that will only work for us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: It shows that we are the ones who are capable of running this economy.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Madam, my colleagues on your left would like to add to this important debate.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to add my word to this debate.

Madam, the energy sector is important to any country, let alone Zambia. The performance of the energy sector determines whether the economy of the country moves forward or backwards.

For many years, the economy of this country has been moving backwards. Many claim that we have had growth of about 6 per cent over the years. Yes, we might have recorded that growth, but if you factor in other issues such as inflation, we have not had that much growth at all.

Madam Chairperson, the issues affecting the energy sector are very clear and many people agree with what is being said. The evidence of that is when Hon. Lubinda was debating in the manner that he was, with facts, figures and vigour, I was able to look among those to your right and saw total attention. It is an indication that, in fact, individually, they agree with what Hon. Lubinda was saying.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Madam, let us look at the two sub-sectors; the petroleum sub-sector and the electricity sub-sector. The issues of water and water development have been adequately covered. Unfortunately, much as we would like to praise the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, it is fair to say that the two sub-sectors have under performed and by this, have constrained the growth of the economy and the diversification effort.

Madam Chairperson, we all know that in addition to the shortages that arise in the petroleum sub-sector, the electricity sub-sector has also been equally afflicted by various shortages, resulting in load shedding and general shortage of electricity, and yet the energy sector is an economic sector which, if properly run, is one of those sectors which could contribute to increasing the size of our budget.

We are under developed and our people are poor because of the size of the budget that we have to distribute every year.

Madam Chairperson, every time is an electricity shortage and we load shed and shut down industry, has anyone in the Ministry of Energy and Water Development worked out, exactly, the cost to this country?

 Madam Chairperson, the causes of the shortage of electricity are twofold. There is a lack of planning that has resulted in a situation where the installed capacity is now less than the demand in the country.

This situation does not arise overnight. It arises because someone went to sleep. As demand was going up, they forgot about establishing the requisite capacity to match it.

Mr Lubinda: True.

Mr Milupi: Madam, way back in 1986, I was one of the people who led a delegation to India because there was a proposal led by the then President in meeting with the Prime Minister of India, Indira Gandhi. The plan was to establish an aluminum smelter in Kabwe. The reason we were thinking of establishing it in that place was that India had excess aluminum and Zambia had excess electricity. 1986 was not too long ago. If we had excess electricity then, what has happened now when our demand is exceeding our installed capacity?

The Ministry of Energy and Water Development superintends over these matters not only in the current administration, but also the preceding ones and is then expected to plan and ensure that we always have what is called firm capacity.

Madam Chairperson, in addition to that lack of foresight, the operations and maintenance of existing power stations leave much to be desired. Not long ago, one of our stations was almost gutted by fire. Probably, the use of automatic fire protection equipment was non existent. We have failures that can only be explained by lack of technical expertise in setting up the protection equipment.

Madam, this country is surrounded by a number of countries that have a deficit in electricity. The whole of East and Southern Africa is in deficit. Zambia has the potential to cover that entire deficit and, therefore, the electricity sub-sector can be a major contributor to the national pot.

Madam Chairperson, let me now turn to the petroleum sub-sector where, as has been said before, we have shortages every year. Every day that we have a shortage, the people of this country can witness the number of man hours that are lost on queues for petroleum products. They can witness the number of hours that are lost by industry. Who does this shortage benefit?

Is it too much to ask the people whom we pay to superintend over these matters to take their time and plan these shortages out? What really is causing the shortages in this sub-sector? Coming to that, why is it that senior and hon. People can come here and tell this House and the whole country that there is no problem, and yet people have continued to experience these problems? Even as we are told in this House that there is no problem with diesel, there are people on the streets queuing for diesel. If there is a problem, at least, let us begin to tell the truth because when we tell the truth, we shall then be in a position to solve that problem.

Sir, already, we have talked about the Indeni Oil Refinery, is it still relevant to the needs of this country? More importantly, the increased demand for petroleum products has turned into an opportunity to those who want to get rich quickly. Therefore, they jump into the procurement process. This is one factor that is causing shortages in this country. It is the people who are chosen to procure oil who understand whether they are capable of handling the large volumes of oil that this country needs.

Madam, the company that has been appointed is Kenyan based. If we examine who these people are and their size, we will understand that, quite clearly, they do not have the capacity to procure the petroleum products for this country. This company was established in 2002 mainly to service the Kenyan local market. It tried to expand to North-East Africa.  This year, their board of directors decided that the contract was too big for them and they needed to go back and concentrate on the Kenyan market.

The board of directors of that company decided that they were too small to leave the local market in Kenya to supply others in East Africa in 2009, seven years after they were established. How come, this year, Zambia decides that these are the people who are going to procure our petroleum products? Are we serious?

Madam Chairperson, it is this kind of action, the desire to get rich that is driving us further and further into poverty. If anyone sat down to work out exactly what this economy has lost because of the recent oil shortages, which, by the way, are still taking place, we will find that the amount of money lost is far in excess of the money that a person who wants go get rich has made out of these deals. Let us be patriotic for once.

This country needs to move forward. The poverty that engulfs this country needs serious minds to address. We have a country on our hands which is rich in resources, and yet the people are poor. The reason for that is that the management of the country is in poor hands.

I thank you, Sir.

Madam Chairperson: Before, I give the Floor to another debater, let me guide that, as …

Hon. Opposition Members stood up!

Madam Chairperson: Order!

You may take your seats.

… hon. Members speak,  they should ensure that their microphones are upright. That will help. I am keeping mine upright.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this vote. I have reason to smile because of this.

Madam Chairperson and hon. Members of Parliament, kindly allow me to be very brief in my debate, specifically on the energy sector. In being brief, I will be very forthright. There will be no mincing words, whether there is anybody who does not want to be criticised or not. This is parley. It is called parliament, a word which comes from French which means debate, talk  and …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … air your views. Zambia is a democratic country and we shall speak freely using this platform.

Madam, there is corruption in the process of procuring diesel or oil. There is nothing else that has brought about this shortage. It is all corruption. We should not even waste time meandering or eating hot porridge using a teaspoon. That is a wrong way. It is absurd that after forty-five years of independence, Zambians are still dog devoted to a culture of corruption. Where is the legacy of late President Mwanawasa? Why have you abandoned it? Come on, let us work together. You promised us that there would be a serious fight against corruption, but we are now seeing a serious danger of tribalism. One region is trying to run this country and that will never be tolerated. We shall not allow it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: We are watching you very carefully. We know how this Kenyan company was given a chance, bypassing the tender process. We know the system you are using. In fact, those civil servants are also our relatives. They brief us …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … on how you intimidate them. Let them work professionally. The Zambia Public Procurement Authority (ZPPA) needs a free hand to work professionally. However, you are welcoming organised international criminals, with briefcases, who masquerade as oil suppliers at the international airport.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: This is how the shortage came about.

Madam Chairperson, I support …

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muyanda: … this vote

Madam Chairperson: Order!

To keep my microphone upright, I may as well stand up when guiding the House.

Hon. Members, as you make such serious allegations like criminals coming to do business and being welcomed by the Government, you may need to be a little more forthright by giving more information about that. This is because it leaves the people of Zambia extremely tensed up because then, they do not know where their nation is going. If there is no evidence, moderate yourself. Say what you know and stick to that so that we can give some assurance where we need to.

You may continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely for your good guidance …

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, I support this vote. In my supporting it, I am inclined to look at people in rural areas, especially the people of Sinazongwe, who I represent in this august House, which others pronounce differently. I am really not concerned about that at the moment. I am more disturbed about the non supply of electricity to the people of Sinazongwe and the entire Gwembe Valley.

Madam Chairperson, from about 1957 to 1960, we were bundled into trucks and relocated. I happen to have been a youngster then, but I remember being thrown into a truck and told to leave the land because Lake Kariba was about to be created, and yet, to date, the displaced people of Sinazongwe, Gwembe and Siavonga do not have electricity.

Hon. UPND Member: Shame!

Mr Muyanda:   These people who actually gave up their land, have further migrated to Sichifulo in search of land for farming.

Madam Chairperson, this Government has not prioritised the electrification of schools in the valley.

Hon. UPDN Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda:  How can we say that you are a good Government when you are failing to look after your people? How can we praise you for denying your own people the fundamental right to electricity? 

Hon. UPDN Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda:  If we do not tell you this, you criticise us in this august House. This is Parliament. You will never intimidate us. This is the forum where we should speak our minds on behalf of the people of Sinazongwe. The people of the valley need electricity. I hope that this time, the Rural Electrification Programme …

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member for Sinazongwe who is debating, in order to say that he cannot praise this Government when only last year, using his fingers, he praised them for being a very intelligent working Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Is he in order to now suggest otherwise? What has changed? I beg your guidance on this matter.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

The point of order raised, indeed, questions our integrity and the principles on which we stand.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: However, as a principle of the House, hon. Members on my left have no policy commitment or position, hence many times, they speak so freely that they change positions every time.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

This is a serious matter in the sense that the right may be held accountable for every word spoken because they are committed to the nation in their social contract. The hon. Members on my left will, today, praise when something is good and the next day, change their minds and castigate it. This is the way they have been going.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Nonetheless, your electorate listens to you.

The hon. Member may continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, the beauty of this august House is that it favours my kind of prudence and experience. I have been in this House for eight years. It is a pleasure to work in an environment where there is harmony, respect and discipline.

Mr Kambwili: Not indiscipline.

Mr Muyanda: As a disciplined hon. Member of Parliament, senior as I am, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … I am enjoying my freedom of speech.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, may I go back to the energy sector. The beauty of being an experienced debater and politician like myself, is that I am never destructed by petty politics.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Hon Muyanda, please, debate the issues on the Floor of the House. Come back to the energy sector issues and leave the praise to your electorate.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Madam, I want to proceed by saying that the Government must respect the people of the valley. The people of the valley, from the Victoria Falls to Siavonga, want electricity. Even the electricity we are enjoying in this august House comes from their toil and sweat …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: … and having given up their land. I am proud to originate from that society.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: I want to appeal to the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, today, to direct the Rural Electrification Programme (REP), as we approve this budget, to the valley. The people of the valley must be given priority. You cannot take electricity under REP to areas where people did not sweat for it.

Madam Chairperson, you and I were here when General Zulu used to seat here. He was promised electricity. Like me, he also comes from the valley. Chief Mwanya was also promised …

Laughter 

Mr Muyanda:  … electricity. This Government has not fulfilled that promise. The valleys are peculiar areas. Eight years ago, General Zulu, who stood precisely where I am standing, was assured by this Government that Chief Mwanya’s Palace would be electrified. Why has the Government not done that? Chief Mwanya is bitter. He is very angry. He wants power.

Hon. Opposition Member: Chief who?

Mr Muyanda: Chief Mwanya!

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Madam Chairperson, it is my hope that the people of the valley will be given priority by REP this year. I want the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development to give a specific directive that the hon. Member of Parliament for Sinazongwe will have a special final rural electrification project and the others must wait. We shed blood at Chisamu. About eight people were shot dead by colonialists to give way for the construction of Kariba Dam, which most people pronounce wrongly. It may be written as Kariba, but pronounced differently. Do not corrupt the words. Kariba simply means close and give way for electricity.

Madam Chairperson, when a point has effectively been delivered, you sit down. You do not keep on talking.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.

Madam Chairperson, I rise to say a few words on the motion on the Floor. I will be very brief, extremely brief because most of the points that I wanted to debate have been successfully debated by the previous speaker.

Madam, I want to warn this Government through you regarding their intention to get the 50 per cent shares of Total in Indeni. That is a very dangerous route to go. Therefore, my advice is, if Total is pulling out, let the company negotiate with the prospective investors and the Government should not get involved.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kambwili: If the Government gets involved, there is nothing else we are looking for, but corruption.

For the first time, you stated on the Floor of this House that previously, there was an investor who pulled out and you allowed that investor to negotiate with Total. What has changed today for you to first want to buy the shares temporarily and then, sell them? Are you not scared that people are always suspecting you of being corrupt. For once, please, stay out of Indeni and corruption. Stay away. You know that you cannot run Indeni as a Government. Total has told us in black and white that you have failed to honour your 50 per cent obligation, and yet you want to go ahead and buy a 100 per cent. Where are you going to get the money to run Indeni? Therefore, my advice to you, underlined and in red, is you should stay out of the shares of Indeni.

 Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity and I would like to support the budget for the Ministry of Energy and Water Development.

Madam Chairperson, in supporting this vote, I would like to remind hon. Members that the fuel shortages, which many hon. Members have mentioned on the Floor of the House, are temporary. We are all aware that they will be resolved very soon.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, let me remind the hon. Members both on the right and left that we have had fuel flowing at our filling stations the past months. This means that our men and women have been working.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Sometimes, when things are moving smoothly, any time you go out to a filling station and find that there is fuel, you take it for granted that that is how life should be and you forget that there are people who are working day and night to ensure that this situation is the way it is.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Therefore, we need to know that our men and women are working around the clock to ensure that this problem is resolved.

 Madam Chairperson, I would like to remind the hon. Members that we, in the Government, are not acting, but dealing with reality.
 
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Therefore, it is easier for you on the left to stand up and say I could have done this and that but, for us, we are dealing with reality.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: That is the difference. Therefore, when you see that there is a problem, …

 Mr Kambwili: Akusunga fye inchito iwe!

Dr Puma: … remember that the Government is doing everything possible to normalise the situation. We have been given an assurance that we are doing everything possible. We are still able to drive our vehicles and you came here driving yourselves.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Puma: This means that our people are working.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, I would like to mention that it is wrong for people to think that they can only do things for the country when they are in Government. That is wrong because most people who have a lot of money in this country are not even in Government. They have employed a lot of people, but they are not in Government, and yet the impression that is given by hon. Members on your left is that they can only bring development and create employment if they are in Government. That is wrong.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Actually, you can create employment even if you are not in Government. That is very important. It is also important to note that as a Government, we are creating a conducive environment to enable Zambians do business in whatever sphere they are able to.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: This includes the energy sector.

Madam Chairperson, I have heard many hon. Members say on the Floor of this House that we have a lot of water in this country. The question is, what are you doing about it? We have foreign investors coming to this country to set up big farms. They use our water and what we are consuming is produced by people from outside this country. Meanwhile, you continue complaining that we have a lot of water, but we are not using it.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: What are you doing about it? We have created an enabling environment. If you are able to use this water to produce food or generate electricity, …

 Interruptions

Madam Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Members have to remember that when one hon. Member is on the Floor, it is important that they listen to him/her even when they do not agree with him/ her. Others did not agree with the points that have been raised, but they listened. Could we allow the hon. Deputy Minister to also bring out his views because he also has that freedom and the same independence that everybody enjoys. Can you allow the hon. Deputy Minister to debate, please?

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, I want to emphasise that the Government has created a very conducive environment to enable Zambians do business in whatever sphere they are able to do.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Dr Puma: Madam Chairperson, there are many resources in this country. For example, we have a lot of minerals and as a Government, we have put laws in place for each one of us who wants to do something in the mining sector. If you identify that there are minerals in a particular area, you can apply for a licence so that you are able to exploit these resources. It is not good for you to continue complaining that you have so many resources that are not being exploited, but you are doing nothing about the problem. Therefore, I would like to encourage you, hon. Members, to utilise the water resources that you are talking about and make sure that we do everything possible to use the available laws in our utilisation of the available resources.

Madam Chairperson, it will not help us to continue saying that there are many resources that you are not using, but just sitting back. Talking alone is not enough. Let us talk and act.

 Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma: If you know that you can use water for irrigation, do it because the Government has put laws in place to enable you do that. Do you want the Government to do that for you even when the laws are in place and you are allowed to do it? Why are you complaining? Therefore, let us not just talk because talking alone is not enough. We need to make sure that we use these resources. Let us not wait because it is not good for us to wait for other people from outside this country to come to this country, use the resources that we have and eventually, we start complaining that they are making a lot of money while we continue talking.

Mr Kambwili: Finally!

Madam Chairperson, with these words, I wish to support the budget for this vote and I thank you.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Madam Chairperson, first of all, allow me to thank most sincerely, all hon. Members of Parliament who have supported this vote. I would like to tell them that they need to stop behaving like North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) members.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: NATO, like hon. Members of Parliament, are those who do not act, but keep on talking.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for Chasefu for his remarks and would like to assure him that we will, as a Government, endeavour to take electricity not only to the people of Chasefu, but also to other parts of the country closer to their homes and businesses. This will improve their lives and social status as well as economic activities because we believe that with electricity, our people can undertake a lot of economic activities. Therefore, for Chasefu and other parts of the country, we will endeavour, in next year’s Budget, once approved, to take electricity closer to the people through REA.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, with the limited resources we have and, as has been proposed in the budget, we will endeavour to construct dams so that our people can have access to clean water which they can also use for irrigation.

As hon. Members of Parliament, we must encourage our people to grow food. As we speak, today, I can confirm that there are water resources that our people have not taken advantage of to use for irrigation because of lack of encouragement by the hon. Members of Parliament. We, as a Government, are going to make the water resources available so that the people can grow more food in order to grow the economy.

Madam Chairperson, with regard to the capital assets issue that was raised earlier, I would like to inform the House that it is almost coming to a close now. Recently, I was in Zimbabwe and had discussions with our colleagues from Zimbabwe and we are going to submit the resolutions of our meeting to Cabinet. Once they have been approved, the House shall be duly informed.

Mr Malama: Just resign!

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, I am very grateful to my colleague from Pemba for a very positive contribution which, I think, most of our hon. Members of Parliament should try and emulate. I do not mind the critics, but just talking and being negative without doing anything is not right. As opposed to being negative, I think, the comments regarding the need for investment in the energy sector by the hon. Member of Parliament for Pemba were very constructive.

Mr Sejani: You are telling lies!

Mr Konga: Most of our people and hon. Members of Parliament just talk, as the case is now. As a result, they do not see the opportunities that this Government has made available to invest in the energy sector or agriculture. Nobody is investing, but we are just happy to talk.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: The opportunities to invest in the energy sector are there.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members: Zero! You liar!

The Chairperson: Order!

You are making running commentaries and some of the words being used are unparliamentary. Can you allow the hon. Minister to speak. You had the opportunity to speak so can you now allow the hon. Minister to respond to some of the issues that you have raised.

Hon. Minister, you may continue, please.

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, I would like to invite all the hon. Members of Parliament, here, to take advantage of the abundant water resources that this country has and invest even in the electricity sub-sector.

Hon. Opposition Members: How!

Interjections

Mr Konga: That is the whole issue. How they are supposed to do that is not for me to find out. It is not the responsibility of the Government to invest in the electricity sector alone.

Mr Muntanga: It is for you people that side!

Interruptions

Mr Konga: At the moment, we are talking about opportunities which once ceased by foreign investors, it will be you, the hon. Members of Parliament, who will complain about how the Government would have given the opportunity to foreigners. If you want to grow our economy, the opportunities in the electricity sector are yearning to be seized. The opportunities to invest in the energy sector are yawning in the Luapula, North-Western and Southern provinces. Come to our offices so that we talk to you as opposed to being nettles, as I said earlier. Become constructive now. Produce energy and grow the economy yourselves.

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Kuya bebele!

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, I can confirm that although this budget looks like most of the electricity sector is recurrent, we have a lot of programmes that we are going to undertake through the REP. Beyond that, the Government is committed to growing the electricity subsector.

I have been talking to various investors about the investment in the electricity subsector. This sector will be taken up by foreigners because I can hear hon. Members of Parliament here refusing to take up this challenge. Once the discussions are concluded, we are talking of an investment in excess of US$600 million, next year, so that we can have more energy produced to drive the economy.

Madam Chairperson, I agree that Indeni has under performed, but as you recall, it has had assets that the Government had invested in almost forty years ago. Over the years, there has been wear and tear and there has been very little recapitalisation. However, it is not correct to pass false statements such as those being passed by the hon. Members on your left. The Government and Total had invested a sum of US$22.5 million as was mutually agreed. This is a statement that I had made in this House and hon. Members are free to verify that information. So I get surprised that hon. Members of this House can, actually, tell the nation lies.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

You are telling lies yourself!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Can you withdraw the word “lie”.

Mr Konga: I withdraw the word “lie” and replace it with “misinformed” the nation. We had invested in excess of US$22.5 million with Total. That is what we had invested in the Indeni Refinery. Over time, the refinery has faced a lot of challenges and the technology that was there forty years ago is not the same technology that is there at the moment. I think those are challenges that this refinery has been facing.

Mr D. Mwila: Abaleya!

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Madam Chairperson, I commend the statement from the hon. Member of Parliament for Kabwata, who stated that water is life and that is true. I have indicated that water is the most important resource that we have. With water, we are able to produce energy and food. So we need to take advantage of the resource we have and use it to the benefit of our people.

Madam Chairperson, the Government is working on the revised Water Policy which will soon be tabled to Cabinet. Once it is tabled, the issues raised by the hon. Member of the Water Resource Management Bill and the Water Resource Action will follow and the Bill will eventually come to Parliament.

I think I have spoken quite a lot about that, but Madam Chairperson, allow me to dwell on the issue of the petroleum subsector.

The petroleum subsector is a sector that is very critical for national development. As a Government, we have invested in the sector over the years, as I have indicated, to keep it running. We have supplied 98 per cent of the energy requirements of this country. The fact is that, as is the case with any other piece of machinery which must close for maintenance, Indeni closes for maintenance. However, this does not indicate that the Government has become corrupt. The fuel that this country is supplying is bought through a competitive awarded tender through ZPPA. Therefore, if hon. Members of the House are not satisfied, they are free to go to ZPPA and look at the documents which were awarded two years ago, as per the law passed in this House. So it is very sad that hon. Members of the House could be misinforming the public.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Hammer!

Mr Konga: There is no element of corruption in the procurement of fuel …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON in
 the Chair]

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was saying that hon. Members must refrain from making wild allegations on corruption.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I can challenge some hon. Members to remove their immunity and report their allegations to the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC).

Interruptions

Mr Konga: I want to challenge them to do that as opposed to making wild allegations.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, people who have stolen public property and are benefitting from the policies of this Government by selling maheu are always condemning the Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: People must appreciate the good policies because without energy, that maheu would not have been produced.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Without water, that maheu would not have been produced. Without fuel, that maheu would not have been distributed.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, when hon. Members come here, they should be honourable enough to tell the truth.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, allegations of corruption should be reported to the ACC, which operates by an Act passed by this House.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: These should be reported, instead of making unsubstantiated wild allegations.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: As regards the allegations on the Kenyan company, that company was sourced two years ago. The problem we have is that some hon. Members do not read. That tender was floated two years ago and hon. Members are free to go to ZPPA to verify that information. The problem is that some hon. Members make wild allegations under the guise of the immunity they enjoy in this House. That is the biggest challenge that we have.

Mr Chairperson, the tender was floated by the ministry two years ago owing to the fact that the Government was aware that the supply coming at that time was lower than the demand and alternatively, the Kenyan Company was awarded the tender by the ZPPA two years ago. How can there be allegations of awarding the tender in October, 2008?

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I challenge hon. Members to be factual by conducting more research as opposed to just talking without facts.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: Talk about diesel.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, on diesel, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: … for the last two weeks, and I am saying this again to challenge the hon. Members of the House to go and research, ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I do not think we can proceed along those lines. We know our procedures here. So listen and do not go on saying, “hee, hee, hee”, as if we are in church.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think let us give him a hearing.

Can you continue, please.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of the House should know that two weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development and officials held a meeting with all the oil marketing companies. At least, it was agreed that on a daily basis, in Lusaka alone, the Government releases 400,000 litres of diesel and 400,000 litres of petrol. This is the information and if the hon. Members on your left, Mr Chairperson, have access to the internet, they can go and research …

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Interruptions

Mr Konga: … and verify whether the Government is telling lies. The fact that there could be distribution challenges by oil marketing companies does not mean that the Government has failed to provide the product at all. Do you understand?

Interruptions

Mr Konga: So hon. Members of the House, I can challenge you to buy fuel tankers so that you can go and pick the fuel from the depots to distribute.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister in order to continuously tell us that there is fuel, and yet I failed to buy fuel in Kalomo yesterday because there is none? All the stations are empty in Kalomo and Choma. Is he in order to continuously tell us about the availability of fuel when it is not there at the stations? Is he in order, Mr Chairperson?

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me advise the House. We debated this vote and those of us who spoke, are still waiting for the response from the hon. Minister and the hon. Minister is responding. Whether you agree or disagree, it is only right and proper that you give him a chance to explain and then we will be able to move forward. Otherwise, we will make no progress.

Hon. Minister, my advice is that an explanation is given because the important point is that we have to pass your vote.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, thank you for your guidance. It is, of course, regrettable that motorists and the filling stations have had challenges. I think these are the issues that the Government will take up with the institutions that are supposed to ensure that the fuel is available.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Konga: However, I would like to indicate to the House that on a daily basis, the Government has been releasing 400,000 litres of fuel in Lusaka alone and this is the information that can be verified. We have had challenges having this fuel leave the depots because the Government bulk supplies and engages our dealers to distribute to filling stations. These are challenges that we are trying to address. However, on a regular basis, we have been supplying 400,000 litres of petrol, sometimes even exceeding this quantity, despite the knowledge that the requirement for the city is less than that. I would like to inform the House that 400,000 litres of diesel or petrol is equivalent to refuelling 400,000 cars with 100 litres each.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, on a daily basis, there are queues because this is information which can be verified that the Government has actually made fuel available to the oil marketing companies which is equivalent to fuelling 100 litres in 400,000 vehicles.

Hon. Opposition Members: Talk about the Indeni Oil Refinery.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to indicate that due to the repairs that are at the Indeni Oil Refinery, very soon, it will resume production. By Saturday, we should have started operations at the Indeni Oil Refinery. Therefore, I am proud that this Government has committed itself to importing fuel which the Indeni Oil Refinery is going to be producing. We are very confident that by the coming week, the challenges which we have been facing, will be a thing of the past.

Interruptions

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to comment on the issue regarding the supply of power to the people in the valley after the construction of the Kariba Dam. I would like to inform the House that the Government had a programme, together with the World Bank, called the Gwembe Tonga Development Programme. This programme undertook to construct schools, rural health centres and various other facilities to alleviate the suffering of the Tonga people who were displaced during the construction of the dam.

The Government has not neglected its people and therefore, will endevour to ensure that more work and energy is provided. Through ministries such as Works and Supply, we will address issues such as the Bottom Road. Therefore, the Government has a social contract with its people and will not neglect them. The Government will always strive to improve the living standards of its people.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to say that I am very grateful that most of the hon. Members of the House have supported my ministry’s estimates.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 13/01 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Headquarters –  K259,850,144,917).

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I would like to seek clarification on page 120, Programme 1, Activities 04 – Wages – K261,065,184 and 05 – Other Emoluments  – K1,244.916,961. I would like to find out why there is a reduction in wages from K447 million to K261 million while other emoluments have increased from K818 million to K1.2 billion.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is because of a decrease in the number of daily classified employees this year.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: What about Activity 05, hon. Minister?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson …

Mr Muntanga: He is sleeping.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Why can you not behave?

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: You may continue, hon. Minister, please.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, other emoluments are meant to cater for the anticipated increments that will be awarded by the Government, such as leave allowances, which will obviously go up. Other allowances such as acting allowance will also increase. So this is just planning ahead so that when these increments come into effect, they are provided for.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, before I move to Programme 6 on page 121, I seek further clarification on the questions that were raised by my colleague, Hon. Kambwili. If there is a reduction in the number of daily classified employees and an anticipated increase in salaries, should that increase not be reflected in actual salaries as provided for under Programme 1, Activities 01 – Salaries Division I  – K2,070,819,253 and 02  –  Salaries Division II  –  K1,735,573,467? Furthermore, if, indeed, there are emoluments to increase, why is it that those emoluments are increasing at a much higher rate than the actual salaries?

Sir …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your question?

Sir, my question …

Mr Konga interjected.

Mr Lubinda: … that is a follow up to the question by Hon. Kambwili.

The Deputy Chairperson: If you have understood, hon. Minister, you can answer.

Mr Konga: Sir, Activity No. 2 shows the budget for salary increments. There is a reduction …

Interruptions

Mr Konga: No, it is not K60 million. Just compute your figures. There is an increment to Activity 2. For the people who are going to be provided for under Activity 2, we are planning for them under Activity 5, and that is very simple.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: The explanation by the hon. Minister is not correct …

The Deputy Chairperson: I beg your pardon. I meant to go to Mr Mukanga.

Mr Kambwili: But it is a follow up to my question.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, it is Mr. Mukanga’s question.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, on page 121, Programme 11, Activity 01 − Rural Electrification (4) (5) − K234,667,885,025. There is an increase from K72,960,475,500 to K234,667,885,025 this year. I want to find out the sites that are going to be electrified and when are we going to have the Rural Electrification Master Plan brought to this House because we were told that it was brought here, but nothing has happened?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, on page 121, Programme, Activity 01 − Rural Electrification (4) (5) − K234,667,885,025. There is an increment because most hon. Members of the House have been complaining that they have electrification projects which they want to undertake in the constituencies. Based on the work plan that will be provided, I think that is what this money is going to be used for. As regards the launch of the Rural Electrification Master Plan, although it is not an issue here, we had wanted to launch it during the last week of September, 2009, but due to other circumstances, it will be launched at the end of the year.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Sir, on page 121, Programme 9, Activity 02 − Orientation of Officers − K65,900,000. The budget has increased, why should we increase the budget instead of reducing it because last year, we had the same programme again?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, on page 121, Programme 9, Activity 02 − Orientation of Officers − K65,900,000. The provision will cater for expenses related to the orientation and induction of newly-recruited officers in the Department of Human Resource and Administration. The ministry intends to recruit new staff who will be orientated in the ministry’s processes, hence the increment.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, this is an activity-based budget and whatever is provided for, must have a clear explanation. Emoluments relate to things such as leave and many other allowances. Have we changed the way we are preparing the budget where some will be reflected in emoluments? We need a proper explanation on why the emoluments have gone up. We want to approve a budget that we are convinced, beyond reasonable doubt, is reflecting what is on the ground.

Mr Konga: Sir, I indicated that there is an anticipated salary increment annually awarded to public officers. Correspondingly, their emoluments go up and that is why there is this provision for the emoluments to go up. Otherwise, if we do not cater for the emoluments and their salaries go up, there will be a shortfall in the payments for emoluments of leave and other allowances.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I have a question on page 121, Programme 6 and on page 122, Programme 13 but, firstly, I seek further clarification on page 120, Unit 1 – Human Resources and Administration Unit …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Can you ask the ones on which you want to seek clarification. We cannot go back.

Mr Lubinda: Sir …

The Deputy Chairperson: I was supposed to put a question, but I allowed you to speak because you indicated to ask. We cannot go back.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I am not satisfied with the answer that was given …

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, that is why I put the question because I realised that you may not be satisfied with the answer.  We cannot be debating indefinitely.

Mr Lubinda: We cannot vote without asking for clarification.

Interruptions

Hon. Government Members: Sit down.

Mr Lubinda: What Parliament is this?

The Deputy Chairperson: Question, that Vote 13/01 – Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Headquarters  – K259,850,144,917 stand part of the Estimates.

Mr Lubinda called for a division.

The Deputy Chairperson: A request for a division is not granted because less than twelve hon. Members stood.

Vote 13/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

VOTE 13/02 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development – Energy Department – K5,277,558,312).

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 125, Programme 13, Activity 01 – Development of Procurement, Rehabilitation and Monitoring Plans in the Petroleum Sector. Will the hon. Minister clarify this because there is no Development of Procurement, Rehabilitation and Monitoring Plans in the Petroleum Sector that are reflected? In fact, we are currently discussing and suffering from the fact that this money …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You have asked your question. Can the hon. Minister answer?

Dr Scott: Can this money be recovered and sent back to the Treasury, please?

Mr Konga: Sir, last year and the years preceding that, as we heard from the hon. Member for Ndola Central, the Government rehabilitated storage tanks for fuel in Ndola. The work was concluded and that is why there is no provision for this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 125, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Energy Resource and Options Dissemination through ZGEN – K80,000,000. Why has the budget been reduced?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, the reduction is due to budgetary constraints.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 126, Programme 14, Activity 06 – Promotion of use of Solar Water Heaters – K80,400,000. How is the ministry going to promote the use of solar water heaters?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, the Government, through the Ministry of Energy and Water Development, has adopted the revised National Energy Water Policy where we want to use other forms of renewable energy in the country and solar is one such form of energy. This activity, limited as it might be, will go towards promoting the use of solar in the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 13, Activity 01 – Development of Procurement, Rehabilitation and Monitoring Plans in the Petroleum Sector. According to the hon. Minister, the Government has been rehabilitating some tanks. I want to know the capacity of those tanks and what tanks will be rehabilitated in this programme since there is no provision this year.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Mukanga, you have asked your question. Can the hon. Minister answer?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, I said that among the plans that we had was to rehabilitate the 40,000 metric tonnes tank in Ndola. We have also been working on plans to rehabilitate and make use of the provincial storage facilities which His Excellency the President talked about when he addressed the House. We had worked on this programme last year and that is why we have no provision this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 16, Activity 01 – Promotion of the use of Coal, Uranium and other Energy Minerals – K68,862,500. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister the promotional activities to be entered into to promote the use of coal as energy.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, this country is endowed with various forms of energy and coal is one of them. We, therefore, want to start using coal in the production of electricity and heating processes. That is what we want to do for those of our citizens who are not familiar with those things in this programme.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K151,218,815. You will observe that last year, the allocation was K350,000,000. Could it be right for us to say that last year, it was a question of over budgeting and this is the money that ends up in people’s pockets? If they can do with K151, 218,815 …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili, the way you are putting your question makes it difficult for one to answer. What is it you want him to clarify? At the moment, you are expressing an opinion which makes it difficult to be responded to.

Mr Kambwili: Why is there a reduction by half? If they did it with K350,000,000, how can they do it with K151,218,815?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, there is basically no reduction. The allocation last year was K350,000,000. The reduction of 50 per cent is attributed to the constraints in the budget. If we can cut costs, it is in order that we do so. This is a way of serving resources.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 13/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/03 – (Ministry of Energy and Water Development ¬– Water Affairs Department – K29,009,175,359.00).

Mr Lubinda: May I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 01 – Fleet Management (Specialised Equipment) – K1,500,000,000). In view of the response given by the hon. Minister regarding Hon Kambwili’s question on reasons for the 50 per cent reduction on office administration, why has the allocation to fleet management almost doubled when the budget is constrained? There has been an increase from K984 million to K1.5 billion in a constrained budget.

Sir, may I also have clarification on Unit 4, Programmes 8, Activity 06 – Water Resource Action Programme (WRAP) EU Water Facility – K50,000,000. May I know how WRAP will manage to undertake its activities when there has been a reduction from K90 million to K50 million, and yet WRAP is not reducing its work scope, but increasing on its activities, particularly leading towards the enactment of the Water Resources Management Bill.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member looks at Vote 13/03, he will notice that it is not talking about office administration. It is looking at Water Resources. Water Resources is a unit which transverses this nation to drill boreholes and do all sorts of activities to ensure that there is water. Therefore, based on the information that was given last year, the equipment has aged and if we maintain the same figures, we will not be able to drill boreholes in the country this year. That is why there is this increment to manage the fleet.

I thank, you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: What about the second clarification?

Mr Konga: Sir, on Unit 4, Programme 8, Activity 06 – Water Resource Action Programme (WRAP) EU Water Facility – K50,000,000. This has been provided as counterpart financing to the programme. This is the figure that is appropriate for the programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programmes 6, Activities 01- Electricity, 02 – Telephones and 03 – Water  have no provision when last year, K60,000,000 was provided. What technology is the Government going to use to communicate, draw water and provide electricity?

Mr Mukanga: Sir, these activities have been moved to office administration.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Sir, may I have clarification on Unit 4, Programmes 10, Activity …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We cannot proceed in an orderly manner because the hon. Minister is being distracted while somebody is seeking clarification. He will not be able to answer properly because people are engaging him. Let us give the others an opportunity to debate.

Hon. Magande, continue, please.

Mr Magande: Is he ready now?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sure he is.

Laughter

Mr Magande: May I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 10, Activity 03 – Nansanga Farming Block Construction – K3,000,000,000. This is a new activity. I would like to know where this farming block is located.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, this is a typographical error. It is supposed to read “Nansanga Farm Block.”

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Where is it?

Mr Konga: It is in Serenje, Central Province.

The Deputy Chairperson: We know where Nansanga Farming Block is located.

Mr Konga: It is the Nansanga Farming Block in Serenje.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 4, Programme 8, Activity 13 – Trans-boundary Water Resources Management  –  K150,000,000. This appears to be a new activity. Can the hon. Minister shed some light on this.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, there is a provision for Trans-boundary Water Resources Management this year because, if we recall, some hon. Members in this House have mentioned in their debates that we share a lot of water costs with neighbouring countries. Therefore, we have decided to start engaging in developmental programmes that will be beneficial to Zambia.  We share the Zambezi and Luapula River costs with other States. Now, we want to have a management programme and this is why there is this provision.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I will allow one question at a time because we have to make progress.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I want to go back to my earlier question which was in connection with what Hon. Mukanga asked.

May I have clarification on Programme 6, Activity 01 –  Electricity, Activity 02  –  Telephone and Activity 03  – Water. The hon. Minister indicated that these activities have been moved to Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K151,218,815. However, when you look at the allocation for Office Administration, you will notice that the amount has been reduced by half because, last year, the allocation was K350,000,000. If these activities have been moved to Office Administration, we expect the figure to go up. Can the hon. Minister clarify this.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, restrict yourself to the question on Page 128. We have already passed Page 124. 

Mr Konga:   Mr Chairperson, I indicated, in my response, that utilities will now be centralised. Payments will be done centrally because this is a central account. This is a new way of trying to avoid the misappropriation of money and it is what this Government has decided to do. We, as a Government, feel that this function should be centrally dealt with by central administration.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 06 – Construction of Rain Water Harvesters. These do not have a budget this year. Have we constructed enough harvesters in the country because we do not have any in Katombola?

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, we did provide for rain water harvesters last year. However, due to a limited budget, there has been no provision this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 13/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 13/04 − (Ministry of Energy and Water Development −Planning and Information Department – K407,783,562).
 
Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Private Sector Development (PSD) Initiative – K20,000,000. This money has been allocated so that the private sector takes part in this initiative. Could the hon. Minister explain to the House what kind of involvement he expects from the private sector when there is an allocation of K20 million?

Secondly, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 9, Activity 03 – Provision of Food Supplements – K15,000,000. The figure has been increased from K10,000,000 to K15,000,000. It is appreciated that people are being given food supplements when on HIV/AIDS anti-retroviral therapy. However, can the hon. Minister check his notes and tell us how many of the citizens are accessing this support from the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and not from the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services nor the Ministry of Health.

Mr Konga: Mr Chairperson, this is the initiative which the ministry, itself, will undertake to participate in the fight against HIV/AIDS.  This provision is there for planning purposes. It is not that this budget is going to cater for the private sector. It is for the purposes of planning for it as a ministry, hence the amount we will spend.

Sir, we have different activities such as the energy wing where the private sector will come and participate with us. These are forums where we are talking of fuel-related issues and programmes are discussed in the ministry.

Sir, as regard to Unit 1, Programme 9, Activity 03 – Provision of Food Supplements – K15,000,000, there is a modest increment of K5 million, which is from K10 million to K15 million, to cater for the provision of medical care for those who are infected with the virus within the ministry. It is not for the public at all. That is catered for by other ministries.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 11, Activities 06 – Process of Parliamentary Queries – K5,000,000, 08 – Monthly Planning Committee Meetings – K20,000,000 and 09 – Statutory and Parastatal Bodies Meetings – K15,000,000. May I know how the ministry managed without a budget, last year, for these activities. As far as I am concerned, these are serious activities.

Mr Konga:  Mr Chairperson, regarding the Processing of Parliamentary Queries – K5,000,000, Monthly Planning Committee Meetings – K20,000,000 and Statutory and Parastatal Bodies Meetings – K15,000,000, this was not provided for, last year, due to poor planning. Therefore, this year, the ministry has made a provision for it to carter for these activities.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 13/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K24,484,817,871).

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debates on the estimates of expenditure for my ministry for the 2010 …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

THE Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

Question put and agreed to.

_____

The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 5th November, 2009.