DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Tuesday, 3rd March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

TAZARA INDEBTEDNESS

164. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) what the total indebtedness of the Tanzania Zambia Railways Authority (TAZARA) to various institutions was:

(b) how the debt at (a) had accumulated;

(c) how much profit TAZARA made from 2006 to 2008, year by year;

(d) how much had been declared to the Zambian Government in dividends from 2006 to 2008, year by year; and

(e) what the future of TAZARA was.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, the total debt of Tanzania Zambia Railway Authority (TAZARA) to various institutions amounts to US $724.7million.

Hon. PF Members: What?

Mr Mubika: US $724.7 million.

Hon. PF Members: Wow!

Mr Mubika: The debt accumulation results from the unpaid loan from the People’s Republic of China of US $500 million which was used to build the rail line. This debt is supposed to be paid by the two countries, namely; Zambia and Tanzania.

Over the years, operations of TAZARA have deteriorated due to poor management, competition from road haulers, the work culture and the leading problem being the deterioration of the rail infrastructure and the rolling stock. TAZARA has proceeded to accrue other loans received in form of material, spare parts and equipment through technical co-operations (thirteen protocols) to service the infrastructure and the rolling stock. This has accumulated to US $142 million. Other debts include the following:

Statutory debts                                                                           US $19,611,567.05
Pension contribution to both National Pension Scheme (NAPSA) of Zambia and National Social Security Fund (NSSF) of Tanzania                                                                                     US$38,339,012.36
Staff creditors                                                                            US $6,748,352.30
Trade creditors of goods and services                                     US $18,025,411.00

Total                                                                                            US $82,724,343.57

TAZARA did not make profits but losses in the years between 2006 and 2008 as follows:

Year                                        Amount (ZMK)

2006                                        K194,643,000 Loss
2007                                        K65,488,000 Loss
2008                                        K89,617,000 Loss

TAZARA did not declare any dividend to Government in the years above.

As a way forward, the two governments of Tanzania and Zambia are considering concessioning the operations of TAZARA. The first option will be given to a Chinese Enterprise/Consortium that will be approved by the Chinese Government, with a view of transforming TAZARA into an asset holding company.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has informed this House that management’s performance has been below par. What are they doing to ensure that the company starts making profits?

Mr Mubika: Mr Speaker, as a ministry and Government we are in the process of recruiting new staff at the company. Currently, there is a new Acting Managing Director in Tanzania.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in answering part (a) of the question, the hon. Minister talked about a total indebtedness of US $724.7 million. This is a colossal amount to be owed by any company. Bearing in mind that this company is clearly insolvent, what measures are you taking to ensure that not only this company but also other companies under your ministry which are in dire financial stress like Zambia Telecommunications Corporation (ZAMTEL), National Airports Corporation and Zambia Postal Services (ZAMPOST), that are in this state, what are you doing as a ministry to ensure that these companies are turned round?

The Minister of Communications and Transport (Ms Siliya): Mr Speaker, it is true, indeed, what the hon. Member of Parliament has stated that we have a number of parastatal companies within the Ministry of Communications and Transport which are in dire straits, TAZARA included. From the debt of US $724.7 million that TAZARA owes, it is very clear that it is in a very difficult situation.

As far as TAZARA is specifically concerned, a number of measures have been taken since last year in August. First of all, we were trying to identify some of the problems within the company and immediately we identified those, there was a management capacity problem. There were also some practices within the company that were affecting the books. For example, there were too many people that were being given free passes for the passenger train. We rectified that and, now, instead of getting a free pass, you actually get a card that has been paid for. You must have requisition a card that would be paid for by cash. We realised that we were actually making a lot of savings and beginning to make money on the passenger train.

We have also reduced the number of passenger trains from four to two until we see better times. Obviously, those are paltry efforts and are not the long-term solutions. The long-term solution to continue to add value in terms of TAZARA’s contribution to both Zambia and Tanzania, is to ensure that we have a management and business model that works.

In the last few years, we have had unprecedented levels of trade. It is unbelievable that TAZARA is not doing well. I do know, for a fact, that in the last few months, last year in particular, many cargo transporters were moving goods using road transport at over or close to $300 per tonne. If there is that much business, the only reason they are not using TAZARA is that of lack of capacity. Therefore, we need a total overhaul. It is not a one day solution. We need a total overhaul. We need capital injection, and our immediate need in terms of working capital is US $6 million. In terms of capital equipment, we need close to US $19 million. So, we have to find the right partner with the right business strategy as well as instil a new business culture in the institution for it to survive. We are working towards those efforts and we have begun talking to the Chinese.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, the TAZARA line or, at least, the part of it which is inside Zambia, services a huge agricultural hinterland. In fact, on either side of that railway line there was the so-called TAZARA Corridor farming block. There were about eight or nine of them. Why has it proved so difficult to convert the Zambian side of TAZARA into an agricultural servicing facility when we are talking about infrastructure for agriculture, and when they are still charging more to move a bag of fertiliser than to move a person with a minimum pay? Why is it proving difficult to use this incredible asset to any good in internal terms?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, that is a good question and I have had discussions with other stakeholders, including the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to try and address that very observation because, as you rightly said, within Zambia it passes through a huge agricultural hinterland. It has just been a matter of taking advantage of this opportunity and I know that the various stakeholders, bulk cargo transporters have been engaging the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives so that we can begin to realise fruits from this infrastructure.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, there has been admittedly a high turnover of chief executives at TAZARA as well as most of the parastatal companies under your ministry, and this may have contributed to the poor performance. What does your ministry intend to do to reduce this high turnover of chief executives?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, the right management with the right attitude and vision in any institution is critical and it is important that, now, we should begin to look forward and identify the right people to run these institutions. Recently, when we went to Tanzania to discuss, in particular, TAZARA, with His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia as well as the President in Tanzania, it was very clear to us that at this point, no matter how much money is put in this institution, it is important that we have the right management with the right zeal and vision to transform this institution and we have begun working towards that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, …

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to seek your serious ruling on whether it is in order for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to come in this House with a briefcase.

Mr Speaker: I did not quite get the point of order.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I was saying that I do not know whether it is in order for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to walk in this Chamber with a briefcase or suitcase. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: No, it is not in order for the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to walk in here with a briefcase.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: He is requested to deposit it out at the main entrance.

Dr Musokotwane gave the briefcase to a House messenger.

Mr Speaker: Will the hon. Member for Pemba continue, please.

Mr Matongo: Mr Speaker, I would like to prime my question with agreeing that it is necessary to have a good management and a good board. Having done that, I would like to know from the hon. Minister what the book value of TAZARA is. There must be some book value of those railways. I would like to know that so that I can determine the solvency as has been stated by my brother at the far end there.

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, the way matters stand at the moment, it is definitely in the negative and we have to do an internal evaluation to see how we can move forward from now.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, we have had a concession agreement with Railway Systems of Zambia which is giving us a lot of problems. Now, is it wise at this stage for the Government to be thinking of another concessioning agreement when we cannot even get any sense or meaningful financial gain out of the current one which is a problem to the country?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, what is very clear is that the situation is bad but we cannot just sit and fold our hands. We have to do something about it. Yes, there have been concerns raised over the concession between Railway Systems of Zambia and Zambia Railways. These are matters we are looking at to try and harmonise the positions because at some point there seem to be different expectations on both sides as to who should do what and when. What is clear is that even with TAZARA and other institutions belonging to the Ministry of Communications and Transport, we cannot fold our arms because, otherwise, we would just have to close them and people would be on the street. We will have to do something to try and save those jobs.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Speaker, admittedly, the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport said that the poor performance by the management in a parastatal company, such as TAZARA, is due to the culture of the people working in that industry. From the previous experience, we know that parastatal companies have never performed well. What guarantee do we have that if more cash is going to be injected in this parastatal company, it is going to turn round rather than going for the second option of privatising the same company?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, first of all, it is important to remember that this asset is jointly owned by the Republic of Zambia and the Republic of Tanzania and that any decisions that we are making have to be made at both the common board, the Council of Ministers and, obviously, after consultations with the two Heads of State. We have considered a number of options, including strategic equity partnership, privatisation, concessioning or whatever term you want to look at. However, it is also clear that we need to have some private sector participation because it is the private sector who know well the business of making money and this is why we are trying to give the first option to the Chinese private companies to try and partner with us in TAZARA so that we can improve its operations although we are open to other suggestions. Very soon we will hold a board meeting to be followed by the Council of Ministers Meeting this month so that we can make these decisions because the two Heads of State have given clear directives that something needs to change, and to change very quickly.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, taking advantage of the statement issued by the hon. Minister pertaining to the Railway Systems of Zambia, can she confirm, to this House and the nation, that there are massive lay-offs that are currently taking place at the railway systems of Zambia?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, like all companies in Zambia and the world today, the Railway Systems of Zambia is also affected by the financial crisis in the world. I do know that Railway Systems of Zambia has engaged the Ministry of Communications and Transport as well as the unions who are relevant to the rail sector to discuss this matter. So, I know the discussions are going on to ensure that if there is any separation that occurs at all, it must be as amicable as possible so that those that will be left without a job do not go away in very bad circumstances. So, I know that there are intentions by Railway Systems of Zambia that they have indicated to me. However, they are discussing these matters with the Permanent Secretary and unions to try and make the separation for those that will be ultimately retrenched as amicable as possible.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister, in the written response said that US$500 million of the US$724 was the original loan acquired by Zambia and Tanzania to put up the railway line. That, obviously, is one of the oldest loans and a loan that we owe to our all weather friend, whose growth as an aid country is very phenomenal. Could I find out under what circumstances China did not write off that debt when all other countries wrote off debt under the Highly Indebted Poor Countries (HIPC) Initiative? In addition to that, the hon. Minister also stated that this company is to be concessioned to Chinese companies. What process did the Government go through to decide that they would concession TAZARA to Chinese companies without any tender being issued? On what basis did they choose China?

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, the issues of the loan that the two Governments owe China, as well as the possible solution for TAZARA, were the very reasons that the President of the Republic of Zambia travelled to Tanzania in February to go and discuss at that high level, attaching the importance that is required to this problem. This is because TAZARA is a very important trade and economic infrastructure for this country. Currently, this US $500 million sits on TAZARA’s boots and this is why we are discussing with the Chinese to see what solution can be found in terms of relief, as far as this loan is concerned. Obviously, our all weather friends, as you have referred to them, were the ones that supported us with this US $500 million loan to actually construct this railway line. It would only be logical that we would be talking to them to see how they can assist us since we are in trouble again. Just after our visit to Tanzania with the President, the Chinese President, Hu Jintao, was in Tanzania on a State visit. So, we took advantage of our visit to Tanzania to ask our colleagues in Tanzania to speak on our behalf on a common position, on how the Chinese can assist us in this matter. Very soon, I will meet with my counterpart, the Minister of Infrastructure Development, in Tanzania to continue discussing the US $500 million loan and what relief we can get from the Chinese, as well as possible concessioning since we would like to give them the possible option as the two Governments.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Sichilima: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Speaker, unlike my colleague who is worried about the Chinese, in this specific instance, could you really assure this House because there are various good options for the Chinese to convert the existing loan into equity and also to encourage you and ask you if your Government will certainly consider giving an option for concession with the Chinese because the level of investment in there from the Chinese is much higher? I hope we do not see another concessioning similar to these people who are briefcase businessmen like the ones in RSZ. The Chinese would be a better option. Do you not agree hon. Minister, through the Chair?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, we are currently engaging the Chinese very seriously on the same matters.

I thank you, Sir.

UPGRADING OF OLD MKUSHI BASIC SCHOOL

165. Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South) asked the Minister of Education when Old Mkushi Basic School in Mkushi South Parliamentary Constituency will be upgraded to a high school.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the ministry has stopped upgrading basic schools into high schools. The Government’s policy is to build new high schools.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for the answer, but I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to consider Mkushi South when funds are available.

Mr Milupi (Luena) Mr Speaker, bearing in mind the answer given by the hon. Minister, and also taking advantage of his local knowledge, since he has said that they have stopped upgrading basic schools to high schools, would he, therefore, give us an indication as to what he wants to do with the Limulunga High School which is already a high school, but is in such a state that is worse than a basic school? What is he going to do to upgrade it and when?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister of Education is free to give a bonus answer.

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, a bonus answer cannot be given now.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

REHABILITATION OF DAMS IN CHASEFU

166. Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu) asked the Minister of energy and Water Development when the dams at the following places in Chasefu parliamentary constituency would be rehabilitated:

(i) Kambonye;
(ii) Chaboli; and 
(iii) Emusa (Luwerezi).

The Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development (Ms Lundwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to state that rehabilitation of Kambonye and Chaboli dams in Chasefu Constituency in Lundazi District will be done in 2009.

With regard to Emusa Dam, rehabilitation works were done in 2005 and, therefore, the next rehabilitation is scheduled for 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that most of the dams in Lundazi, Chasefu and Lumezi constituencies are heavily silted? What programme has this ministry got to de-silt these dams?

The Minister of Energy and Water Development (Mr Konga): Mr Speaker, yes, the Government is aware that some of the infrastructure does require maintenance and service. Therefore, we have put in place a schedule or work plan for carrying out this rehabilitation and maintenance works in 2009 and, with your permission, I can lay the work plan on the Table.

Mr Konga laid the paper on the Table.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

MONEY FOR ROADS THOUGH THE ROADS DEVELOPMENT AGENCY

167. Dr Machungwa (Luapula) asked the Minister of Works and Supply how much money was allocated and how much was actually released to each province for roads through the Roads Development Agency in 2008. 

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the total amount provided in the Road Development Agency (RDA) Annual Work Plan for 2008 was K1,125,830,000,000, broken down, province by province, as shown below together with the disbursed amounts and percentages respectively.

Province                       Budget Disbursed Percentage 

                                    (ZMK million)        (ZMK million)

Central                          77,984.65          43,775.80   56
Copperbelt                    63,738.25          31,502.54   49
Eastern                       134,833.61          84,385.73   63
Luapula                         92,826.81          51,625.45   56
Lusaka                        150,210.92        133,024.68   89
North-Western            141,279.64        134,978.53   96
Northern                      145,912.85        145,912.85 100
Southern                      154,751.53       112,911.81   73
Western                       163,837.55        100,086.95  61

Total                           1,125,375.83       843,753.55   75 

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister explain why some provinces have such small allocations and the amounts disbursed are very minimal whereas provinces with the lion’s share were getting as much as 100 per cent disbursement or close to that? In a way, is this not perpetuating backwardness in certain provinces?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, planned works are there every year and disbursements are dependent on the ability of contractors to carry out the works and not on what is allocated. Sometimes, there can be an allocation but contractors are unable to carry out the works and, therefore, it becomes difficult for the RDA to demand for disbursement of funds.

As regards the issue of equity that the hon. Member has referred to, it is not possible to always have equal allocations for all provinces because, sometimes, one major project would gobble a lot of money compared to projects in other provinces.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, a lot of road projects were advertised last year, especially in rural areas. In Luapula, only two projects were advertised. There was one in Nchelenge and I have just forgotten the other district. The remaining twelve major roads have not been advertised for rehabilitation despite having been identified by the local authorities. When is the money going to be released so that the roads are worked on?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, procurement of works is dependent on the availability of resources. It is possible to commence discussions with potential contractors before funds are disbursed, but what is important is not to sign the contracts before being sure of the money to be paid to the contractors. There is no point in getting a contractor on site and after completing the job, we are unable to pay and let the debt attract interest.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Speaker, welcome back.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. Mulenga: Sir, in his answer, the hon. Deputy Minister indicated that there was 100 per cent disbursement of funds for roads in Northern Province. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why there are still road works that have not been done despite the 100 per cent disbursement of these funds.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, an annual budget does not necessary mean that all projects will be completed in that particular year. Therefore, what was budgeted for in that particular year is what was released.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what problems we had on the Copperbelt for us to have such low figures.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the figures that have just been given are in accordance with the annual work plan though they might seem little. One of the hindrances to the disbursement of funds is the cancellation of some contracts due to poor performance of some contractors.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister whether the 100 per cent work done in Northern Province included works on the Great North Road.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, it was not part of the major works.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Speaker, can we learn from the hon. Minister why the Government created two institutions to deal with a single field, which is the road network? These institutions are RDA and the National Road Fund Agency (NRFA).

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the two institutions were created by this House. One of them raises and disburses funds while the other procures road works.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, sorry for hesitating. This is because I saw so many competitors.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what factors are normally taken into consideration when allocating funds for roads in provinces to the extent that some provinces get the biggest amounts of money to the exclusion of other provinces.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the Government has got commitment to develop some major infrastructures in the provinces. In Southern Province we have the Choma/Namwala Road; in North-Western Province, we have the Solwezi/Chavuma Road; and in the Northern Province, we have the Luwingu/Kasama Road. These are major projects and, as such, the amounts of money allocated are quite huge. If you are doing gravelling on small feeder roads, it is not possible that you can expect to spend as much money as you can on a major project. Therefore, there is no discrimination at all. It depends on the contracts that are awarded in that particular province.

I thank You, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe):  Mr Speaker …

Mr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised. I hope it is procedural.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, the point of order is very procedural. Is the hon. Minister of Works and Supply in order to state in this House that of the 100 per cent work done for Northern Province, the Great North Road was not part of it? Last year, we were told that this money was allocated for the same road in order to do patching works. Is the hon. Minister, therefore, in order to state that? Does he not realise that he has completely demoralised motorists by stating that of the 100 per cent work done in Northern Province, the Great North Road was not included? I need your serious ruling Sir.

Mr Speaker: Since the hon. Minister of Works and Supply is currently answering follow-up questions from the hon. Members of the House, he will deal with that point of order from the hon. Member for Mfuwe when he answers to the question which is supposed to be asked by the hon. Member for Chimwemwe.

You may continue.

Mr Nsanda: Mr Speaker, with this allocation of funds by the ministry, what are they doing with the fuel levy which they are collecting on a daily basis? Are they putting it in the roads or somewhere else?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we have no other major sources of funding for road works other than the fuel levy, the donors and, partly, the Government taxes. When we show figures like this, we are saying to you that this is how money collected from fuel levy, donors and taxes is spent. In short, we do not spend that money anywhere else. After all, the Act makes it clear that money collected from fuel levy must be used for that purpose.

To answer the concern from the hon. Member for Mfuwe, I said part of the major works and a lot of works are carried out on these roads. Some of them just need control and so on and so forth. I do not think we would place those under major works. The road works in Northern Province were not part of the major works, but some rehabilitation here and there was done.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili: Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that the Copperbelt Province’s allocation for road maintenance was only 49 per cent of the total amount of money that was budgeted for. This is why the Copperbelt is very backward in as far as the road infrastructure is concerned. Would the hon. Minister tell the hon. Members of Parliament from the Copperbelt what plans this Government, or the Ministry of Works and Supply, has to ensure that we have enough qualified contractors that are going to do our works properly and whose contracts are not going to be terminated like was the case in the past?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in the first place, the reason contracts are terminated is that we are concerned at the quality of work that the contractor is undertaking.

Secondly, when we do that it is, therefore, imperative that the amount of money to be released for the province is going to be reduced. However, we are conscious of the fact that the Copperbelt is of serious importance to the Government and Zambia in general. Everything is being done to ensure that those roads that have been neglected, so to speak, are attended to as soon as we are ready. The procurement was started last year in preparation for this budget. As soon as the budget is released, we will see what can be done for the Copperbelt.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, we have been informed that K145 billion was released for Northern Province. If this money was released, why did the contractor not resume work on the Kasama/Luwingu Road as per the resolution we passed, as hon. Members of Parliament for Northern Province, that the works should be channeled to the Kasama/Luwingu Road so that it could be completed?

Mr Mulongoti: To the best of our knowledge, the contractor did not go anywhere. You recall that there was a ban that was introduced on some contractors and, for a while, there is a bit of a problem.

Secondly, it became necessary to review that contract because the initial contract had commissions that were not very favourable to the Government. It had to be reviewed and, in the process, of course, there is a bit of a delay, but the contractor did not leave the site. He remained on site and as soon as all this was cleared, he took a bit of time and proceeded to work.

I thank you, Sir.

 

SUPPLY OF GENERATORS TO HEALTH INSTITUTIONS

168. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Health whether there were any plans to supply power generators to hospitals and health centres country-wide to mitigate the adverse effects of continued power outages on the health institutions.

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Speaker, the Ministry of Health has recognised the need to purchase generators at our health facilities in order to mitigate the effects of continued power outages on the health institutions.

To this effect, the Ministry of Health has commenced the process of procuring generator sets for hospitals where they are not existing or non-functional. For a start, a total of twenty-one hospitals were identified in 2008 to commence with this programme. So far, contracts have since been signed with the supplier and the generators are expected to be delivered by the end of April, 2009. Other hospitals will be considered in the second phase at a later stage.

I thank you, Sir.

_________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 14 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – K29,823,220,257).

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Chairperson, on Friday, I was looking at the issue of investors wishing to pull out. These investors must realise that when they came in this country, we gave them all the necessary support and our usual hospitality and, above all, we tolerated them. I say so because of some of the things they have been doing in this country. I am also aware that even the organisations in countries where they come from condemn them. Why should they now be holding this country to ransom whenever they want to pull out? They paid nothing for these mines. They underpaid the Zambian workers. They made huge profits at the expense of this country and they are now demanding huge sums of money in order to hand over the mines to the new investors. My serious warning to such investors is for them not to push us too far, please.  We also have limits to reason with them.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, let me turn to my other concern of what is going on between the two unions, namely, the Mineworkers Union of Zambia (MUZ) and the National Union of Mineworkers and Allied Workers (NUMAW). Why should they agree to defer the negotiations and yet they know very well that, sooner or later, the workers will be declared redundant? Are they implying that these workers should go with nothing at the end of the day? I appeal to the two unions to finish those negotiations before any worker is declared redundant.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, history has it that in the last days of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM), the company behaved more or less in the same way. They used to retrench people a few months before the conclusion of negotiations. We advised workers to seek redress from the courts of law and they were awarded or were part of the increment that was due because the only reason that ZCCM was pruning people before the increment was to deny them of a better exit package and this is exactly what Konkola Copper Mines Plc and Mopani Copper Mines Plc are trying to do. We have two unions and I do not see why they should not sit down together. They should use this as a weapon to refuse any further redundancies. They should also bargain. If they want to retrench workers, they should also increase their packages. The only reason they want to do away with 900 employees, for instance in Mopani, is that they want them to go away with nothing. Are we not creating poverty in the country? We are creating poverty. I am totally against this and I hope my brothers who are in the two unions on the Copperbelt are listening and I hope they will take the interest of their members into consideration.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Mr Chairperson, I talked about Mopani Copper Mines Plc or GLENCORE using Zambian management to produce for them, but not to make decisions. I hope to reiterate this issue. They should not use these Zambians. I know the people who are there are very capable. Some of them were running big divisions like the Nchanga Division. They want, when the mines fail on the Copperbelt, to say it is the Zambians who have failed to deliver. This is unacceptable. However, I am so passionate about Zambian managers being given all the powers. Let Mopani Copper Mines Plc look at some of the Zambian managers. When we debate about Mopani Copper Mines Plc, we do not debate about individuals. I hope Mopani Copper Mines Plc will be able to look at some of their managers. They seem to take these issues very personally.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Our role is that of advisors and I thank you for the opportunity given to add my words of advise to this Government.

First of all, Mr Chairperson, I have committed myself, every time I stand to debate on ministries, to do exactly what the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has said is of importance and, also, to focus on the revenue side of any ministry, especially those non-tax collecting ministries. In the light of this, I notice that the hon. Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, as a revenue collecting ministry, will collect 77 per cent more revenue that they collected last year. It has risen from K3.22 billion to K5.72 billion. It may not be too much, but it is significant that the revenue is going up and I ask that they keep it up and, maybe, even improve upon it. I ask that other ministries, when they talk about their ministries, also reflect on the revenue side of their budgets.

In the light of this, Mr Chairperson, I am dismayed to note that the money allowed for expenditure in this ministry has been cut by 30 per cent overall from K42 billion to K29.8 billion. When you remove the emoluments and administrative costs that remain for this ministry, it is effectively K29 billion which has been reduced by K13 billion down to about K17 billion, and that is effectively a 45 per cent reduction in their operational costs. This is a ministry which has to focus on the mining industry that is so critical. There are so many issues in the mining industry. This is the ministry that we must all recognise that when the industry was a parastatal, all the employees of those parastatals also had the interest of this country at heart. Therefore, there were the issues of safety and pollution and many other issues - you had a multi-pronged attack – for the employees of the company as well as the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Now, you have people motivated by profits running these mining companies. You need a much more robust Ministry of Mines of Minerals Development to ensure that they police these companies on behalf of this nation. If you look at what is happening, large-scale mining monitoring operations have had their money reduced from K270 million last year to only K79 million. The post privatisation monitoring has been reduced from K210 million last year to nothing this year. Obviously, we do not intend to carry out any monitoring. The mining and environmental inspections have been reduced from K1 billion to K687 million and financial controls have been reduced from K272 million to K123 million. We always talk, in this House, about the gemstone industry and that it must also perform. Now, the money allocated to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development for this sector has been wiped out from K300 million to nothing. The geological and structural mapping and petroleum exploration which the hon. Minister talked about has also been similarly reduced.

Now, Mr Chairperson, first of all, before I go further in my debate, let me recognise, as I have said in this House before, that I am most impressed with the appointment of Hon. M. B. Mwale as Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. He is a professional.

I am equally impressed by the appointment of Dr Godwin Beene as the Permanent Secretary. He is a fine metallurgist. The two will combine well to push this ministry forward. I think they deserve more support in order that we benefit from them as a country. You two should not be in conflict. You have to work together.

Mr Chairperson, let me talk about the biggest issue with respect to this ministry. This is the adjustment of the tax regime and windfall tax in particular.

 Let me remind this House that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development carried out wide consultations last year with various stakeholders who included both sides of this House and chiefs. On the basis of that, they came up with the mine tax regime which was applauded by everyone in this House, the country as a whole and many others outside the country, including the donor community. It is, therefore, sad that we have wiped out what we gained by the removal of windfall tax and other tax measures, without the sort of consultations that we had last year.

Mr Chairperson, let me remind the House that when President Mwanawasa and Hon. Minister Magande talked about introducing this new mine tax regime last year, in January, there was a cacophony of “Hear, hear!” “Boma!” “One Zero!” in this House, especially from the right side because it was a good measure.

Mr Chairperson, the windfall tax is a much more robust tax, especially with high copper prices. It encourages cost saving as all benefits from this accrue to the mining companies. Above all, it is a much simpler tax to administer, especially in Zambia, where we do not a have a sophisticated tax collecting mechanism. The removal of this tax will weaken the Government’s ability to collect a decent tax.

Hon. Member: It has weakened.

Mr Milupi: In fact, it has already weakened. Zambia is not in a position to put up an effective mechanism to collect taxes that are based on profits. The previous hon. Minister was applauded because the combination of taxes that he put in place was robust.

Mr Chairperson, in this year’s Budget for the ministry, we have included hedging as the profits arising from hedging into the mining revenue operations. To me, this is a disaster. It is recognised throughout the world that hedging is a very difficult business. In certain European countries, hedging revenue is not recognised. I think that the previous hon. Minister recognised this fact and that is why hedging income was recognised as a separate business last year and, therefore, the profits and losses arising from hedging were a net that were then taxable for the purposes of our revenue.

Mr Chairperson, I challenge any of you to counter me that you are dealing with profit motivated people and what will happen is that losses from hedging will be reported in Zambia and, I can guarantee you the profits will be reported elsewhere. From the time you incorporated hedging as part of the operating costs, Zambia will only see loses.

Mr Kambwili: Iwe Liato, buka!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, let me refer briefly to variable profit tax. It is recognised the world over that this tax is good for high cost producers. That is a fact, but it is not so good for periods when you have high prices. When you have high prices, and this has happened elsewhere in the world, the sophisticated mining companies segment their operations into separate businesses.

Mr Sing’ombe: Tell them.

Mr Milupi: In Zambia, you will have shipping, refining, smelting, concentrating, and mining as separate businesses. Each one of these will be assigned a strategic profit margin that will ensure that the core business which is mining does not have profit above the 8 per cent at which the variable profit margin kicks in.

Mr Kambwili: Tell them!

Mr Milupi: The end result is that it is very unlikely that this country will benefit from this variable profit tax.

Mr Chairperson, the view from the mining companies was not for wiping out all the gains that we had made from the new tax regime. They asked for adjustments. I think that we could have accommodated them by adjusting the threshold at which the windfall tax kicks in.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: The normal practice in the world is to take the average production cost in the country, double it and that is the threshold for the windfall tax. In this particular case, we would have been kind to them to say the average is US $1.50 per pound and, therefore, the kick in threshold can be US $3.

Mr Sing’ombe: Quality!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, we also could have done what others have done elsewhere. That is to recognise the windfall tax as being deductible for corporate tax purposes.

Mr Sing’ombe: Organise a workshop for them.

Mr Milupi: This is what other countries have done and I can assure you that would have satisfied the mining industry. Above all, when you deal with a crisis, you do not wipe out everything. You put up time limited measures. For example, you could have said that you are coming up with these adjustments for a particular time frame. Right now, if we are to get a rise in prices, we have no mechanism of benefiting from this windfall tax. As I have said, the variable tax cannot capture high prices.

First of all, the labour cost has automatically gone down as a result of the depreciation of the kwacha. Therefore, when the mining companies reduce labour, their cost is further reduced.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: Quality!

Mr Milupi: Secondly, the fuel that is a very high component of the cost has also gone down as a result of the adjustments. This Government must not put itself under too much pressure when it deals with the mining companies.

It should look at the project proposals for each mining company that came into this country. It will see that no mining company, either as a greenfield or as an acquisition, had a profit margin of more than 15 per cent. They are now putting you under pressure so that they can get a higher profit margin than the 15 per cent. When they acquired these properties, they said they would be happy with 15 per cent. The long term copper price that they put in their proposals was not more than US$1.50. Go and check the documents in your possession and you will find that I am telling the truth.

Mr Sing’ombe: Organise a workshop for them!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, most times I stand here to advise. However, sometimes, people do not listen. It reminds me of Moses.

Mr Muteteka: I am here!

Mr Milupi: Not Moses Muteteka …

Laughter

Mr Milupi: … but the other Moses who was the brother of Aaron.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: When he went to the Pharaohs to ask for the release of the Israelites, he was very simple, and non controversial as we say in this House, but it says of the Pharaoh, that the Lord hardened his heart and, therefore, refused to release them.

If they refuse to listen to our advice, are we to assume that someone has hardened their heart? Surely, it cannot be the Lord.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

 Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this important Vote. I only have two issues to contribute on it.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to talk about Luanshya Copper Mines (LCM) which is very critical at the moment. The Government, through the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development, has not come out clearly on what it intends to do so that the nation is informed. We have heard from the hon. Minister who stated that the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) will take over the running of LCM.

Sir, the interpretation of the people of Zambia is that ZCCM, or the Government, wants to take over the running of LCM permanently. I want to advise, but before I do that, I would like to say that there was another statement that ZCCM-IH intends to take over LCM on a temporary basis before an investor is brought in. However, I will concur with what the hon. Minister stated on a certain statement. First of all, the Government has no capacity to run LCM. That must be made clear. They have no money and if they are cheating people, then they are wasting their time.

Mr Chairperson, yes, ZCCM-IH should take over the running of LCM on a temporal basis, maybe, for three months while negotiations are going on with whoever would be the next investor. That would mean well to the people of Luanshya as well as the entire country. What is important is for our people in Luanshya to be in employment. If those negotiations go beyond three months, it would be better for them because it is they, as employees, who will benefit. They will just carry on from ZCCM to another company.

Sir, there is also an issue which was raised by Hon. Milupi, regarding the K210 million which was provided for in last year’s Budget for the Post Privatisation Monitoring Team. You will notice that this year, no money has been allocated. I would like to be educated on that because the Government did not know that management or the owners of LCM would pull out. Now that they have pulled out, it will mean that the committee has to continue with its work. Not only that, the purpose of that monitoring committee at ZCCM is to ensure that the mines which we have privatised or investors are operating within the laws or are within the agreements which were signed between the Government and investors.

Mr Chairperson, if the money is not included in the budget, how are they going to work? That is my concern because all of us are aware of the way the owners of LCM pulled out. If this committee was effective, they would have known that this company was going under or whether they were telling the truth or not because they just suddenly pulled out and our people were thrown into the streets. I hope that, in future, ZCCM will take keen interest in ensuring that they monitor the operations of the mines which have been privatised.

Secondly, my brother, Hon. Percy Chanda, talked about the two unions that are deferring the negotiations. My understanding is that the two unions must put the interest of the workers first because two years ago, these companies were making profits and there were no retrenchments. They have complained, this year, because the copper prices have gone down and operating costs have gone up. It means that management has to find ways and means of survival. Therefore, it is the unions and management which will agree to defer the negotiations to serve the jobs for our people. That is very true. We cannot blame the unions. Maybe, they want to serve the jobs of our people. However, it has to be agreed by the three parties; the two unions and management going by the Industrial and Labour Relations, Act Cap 269. That can be done whilst we save our people’s jobs.

Sir, in 2007, I talked about Non Ferrous Metals Corporation (NFC). If you look at all the mining houses on the Copperbelt, you will find that NFC employees are the lowest paid. Why? It is also the only company which has employed an expatriate Human Resource Manager. We cannot bring in expatriates when we know that our people can perform those functions. The reason we bring in expatriates is that our people cannot perform those functions, but for the position of Human Resource Manager, I think the ministry has to look at that. I am talking about Mr Shu. You know him, Hon Maxwell Mwale. He is the Human Resource Manager at NFC.

Mr Chairperson, it is the social responsibility of these companies. We are all aware that we have got our copper and the people within these townships where the mines are operating expect roads to be repaired by those mining companies. They also expect better hospitals and clinics. If you go to Nchanga, Hon. Simuusa will agree with me, the roads are in a bad state and the Government is just watching. Three years ago, these companies were making profits, but they have not done anything to benefit the citizens or workers. Therefore, I implore the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to ensure that these companies put money in the development of infrastructures like roads and hospitals for the benefit of the citizens.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate on this Vote. I feel compelled to debate on issues related to the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development because of the closure of Luanshya Copper Mines.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I want to say that this unfortunate situation does not just obtain in Luanshya alone. Although we have not been told about other closed mines other than Chambeshi Metals, I see other mines being closed. There are very genuine pointers to this fact. I want to share with the House what is obtaining at Mopani Copper Mines Plc, in particular, Mufulira Mine.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members of this august House and the public may wish to know that in Mufulira, very important operations such as development and top operations are no longer there. Development is primary in mining operations.

Mr Nkombo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkombo: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of order on the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development. The hon. Minister was informed yesterday that Albidon Zambia Limited has gone under care and maintenance, having opened only two years ago and has investment that saw the displacement of over 1,500 Zambians. Is he, therefore, in order to remain quiet with his arms folded without telling this country about this misfortune that has seen people lose jobs and land?

Mr Chairperson, I beg your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Minister can cover that point of order as he winds up. 

Can you, please, continue?

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, indeed, the revelations from my brother, Hon. Nkombo, indicate the fact that many of such things are going to happen.

Interruptions

Mr Chongo: Sir, I was talking about lack of development operations at Mufulira Underground Mine. Development is the heart of mining operations. This is a process of opening up the virgin ground or rather tunneling of the mine, creating access to the ore bodies where copper is mined. If such an activity is not happening, there is an indication that production is going to stop because we are not mining. The other pointer is that the major contractor who was actually doing the job of development, especially prospect mining, had the contract been terminated. 

Sir, from 31st March, 2008, there has been an indication that Barloworld has been told to cease its operations. This is a major service provider. It is also a company that is maintaining the fleet and the loaders that they use underground.

Mr Chairperson, Mufulira Mine is a very deep underground mine which stretches up to about 1400 metres. We have been told that between 820 metres and 1400 metres, they will cease all the operations including the pump chambers. Nobody will be working in the pump chambers and water will go into the mines continuously. What message are they sending across? They are actually indicating that, now, they want to flood mine. They are even pulling out because they are not interested. They are only indicating that actually they are only interested in carrying out the lighting process. Basically, this is a process where they only introduce the chemicals to dissolve copper ore from the parent rocks which is at about 500 metres level.

Mr Speaker, this is a worry to us as a nation. At least, miners are so much aware of what is happening. This has now created apprehension in their minds as to where they are going. They need to come out in the open. They should tell this ministry, the Government and the employees themselves that this is the programme and this is what they are going to do so that, as a nation, other major stakeholders can sit down and see the way forward as to what is making them close those operations. Can we put our heads together as a nation and find a lasting solution? They need not tell us that there is no ore in Mufulira. We have a lot of reserves that can push that mine even for twenty years to come. If that is what they want to do, what message are they going to send?

Mr Chairperson, just from the picture that I have laid bare, we have a lot of implications. One of them is that because there is no development, production is going to stop at one time and, therefore, the mine is going to close.

Sir, the other implication is that even if they are not interested in running this mine and can cease all these operations, hoping that somebody else is going to take over, they need to be reminded that when they were taking over these mines, they took them over as running entities. From the first day they took over these mines, they even produced a tonne because ZCCM was developing the mines for them. ZCCM was doing all sorts of things even when it was under pressure because they realised that they were not ready to close as there was potential to continue mining.

Mr Chairperson, the other implication is that if they can stop this water pumping process from those chambers I was indicating, especially on 1360 metre level, over time - it may not even take three months - the whole mine is going to flood up to about 820 metres, which is 600 metres vertical. Of course, we have got other horizontal developments which stretch about two kilometres every fifteen metres.  Therefore, anybody who is going to take over this mine is not going to be interested because it will be just too much for them to start pumping out this kind of water. If that is the position of Mopani Copper Mines, this Government should be aware that this is economic sabotage that they want to do to this country. This is the reason they are even running to Congo. If they are not making a profit there, where is the justification that in Congo, they are going to do it? We do not know the deals that they have entered into that they should make this country so vulnerable.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to indicate that there are other economic and social implications for this country and, of course, the general population in Mufulira. People will not have jobs and, therefore, those that depend on mine salaries will not have a livelihood.

Not only that, they should not stop operations like pumping water. We should know that the domestic water that these miners drink and use comes from underground, meaning that process will stop. Where are we going to get drinking water?

I would just like to implore the hon. Minister and his Government to seriously intervene in these issues because they are very important. These are the challenges that we need not even sleep over. I would like to request the Government to consider revising the development agreements so that these mining houses do not treat Zambian workers any way they feel. I would also like to ask the hon. Minister to consider introducing a Bill in this House to control mining operations, so that, at least, we safeguard the interests of this country and those of the workers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: It is very important. We should learn from what is obtaining in Luanshya whereby, if someone makes a profit today and the following day it is threatened, even though it is banked elsewhere, he runs away. We need to put certain measures in place so that when they leave, it does not hit us so much.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to ask this Government to consider consolidating their position on the mine boards in various mining houses. ZCCM should have a very strong position in these boards, so that at least, as a Government, we have the power to say what we want. However, it appears as if these mining houses are doing things as they like. Therefore, the hon. Minister should consider this. 

Furthermore, Mr Chairperson, we need to learn that whilst we are struggling through these problems, we need to consider, as a country, looking elsewhere for new sites. We have a very rich ore body, especially in Mulyashi, Luanshya.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, in Mulyashi, we can even see the outcrops of copper indicating that it is a very easy resource to mine. We need to look at these areas.

Mr Chairperson, quite alright, all of us are sympathising with the workers that are going to be pruned. However, I would like to request the hon. Minister to start thinking of how we need to diversify. I remember two or three years back, there was a diversification team that was put in place to ensure that those miners who were pruned were taken elsewhere, where they could start a new life. Maybe, this is the time we need to revisit that idea and see how best we can help to resettle the miners affected by the mine closures.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the windfall tax. Like has been indicated by Hon. Milupi, it will not be in the best interests of this country if we think of foregoing this tax because we do not have indications …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! So far, you have been consulting quietly, but you now you want to begin loud consultations. Continue consulting quietly.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection. 

I was indicating that we have no proof that these mine houses will declare the profits that they will make. They have devised a lot of measures in which they are trying to hide the profits that they are making. Therefore, let us insist that this windfall tax stays at least for as long as they make a profit. If they do not make a profit, then we will not have to get anything from them.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to this debate. To start with, I would like to thank the hon. Minister for a very good policy statement. I wish to just highlight a few points in this policy statement, which will probably help the ministry and this country, as we move forward. Indeed, I speak in an advisory role, as Bwana Milupi, and I hope that the advice will be taken seriously.

Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to point out that when the hon. Minister gave his policy statement, he said that he wanted a vibrant mining sector, which would contribute 6 per cent to the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). I do not know whether he made a mistake, but 6 per cent is too low. I would like to believe that it should be 60 per cent, showing how important this sector is, meaning that mining will contribute around 60 per cent to the GDP.

Mr Chairperson, for a sector that contributes so much to the GDP, equal importance and more weight should be attached to this ministry. I say this because we have been lip servicing and pretending that this sector is important. However, in actions, we are speaking louder in saying that it not important. I gave an example of the President’s Speech. He started his speech by saying that mining is the mainstay of the economy. Yet, out of 80 pages of his speech, only two or three pages were given to mining, meaning that we do not know how important this sector is.

Mr Chairperson, the previous speaker did mention that we have reduced the Budget Votes to mining from K42 billion to K29 billion in this budget. I asked the question whether this sector is as important as we say it is. I would like to submit that the Budget has increased from K13 trillion to about K15 trillion. Therefore, the allocation to this sector should have been increased from K42 billion to K50 billion, to show how much importance we attach, as a nation, to this ministry. 

Mr Chairperson, in saying this, I now wish to talk about one aspect that is very important, which the hon. Minister alluded to earlier, which is monitoring. In his policy statement, he said that as a ministry, he wanted to see monitoring being given some importance. I wish to agree 100 per cent with him. When you look at what is happening right now in the sector, I think that the most important activity that should be encouraged is monitoring and policing.

Mr Chairperson, right now in this country, we have very sophisticated people, who are very experienced in running our mines. As a country, we appear to be amateurs. I can give you examples of cases, one of which has already been talked about by the previous speaker. You will find that the companies are split up in two and no dividends are declared. In fact, we have mentioned before, on the Floor of this House, that if we were very strong at policing, we should have been seeing dividends declared by these mines. However, since they came, even with their big profits, we have not seen anything. Where are those dividends?

Mr Chairperson, I would like to give an example of the leech operations at Mufulira Mine. The company, with impunity, broke the basic rule in leeching. They are supposed to put protective liners and take emergency measures like pumps whenever acid is being used. These are international standards. They cannot do this in their own countries, but they came and did it here in Zambia. This company, with impunity, did not take the emergency measures.  This only means that they have seen that in Zambia, we are weak and we are not able to hold them down to anything that they are doing. I gave an example of JS Mining in Chingola when I debated last time. They have directors that come from outside. They come into Zambia and run a company down after externalising all the profits and leave you with a shell to chew on.  

Mr Chairperson, nevertheless, you will find that our regulatory framework, monitoring and policies are very weak. As such, we have these sophisticated individuals running away and getting away with murder, for lack of a better term. There was another example given …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, I will be very quick because I am enjoying the debate.

Mr Chairperson, I raise this point of order on the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services. Last night, I was very interested to watch the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation Television News at 1900 hours, to find out how I had been roughed up by the MMD cadres together with my associate, Hon. Given Lubinda. Considering that neither of us, hon. Members of Parliament, had even been touched with one finger of an MMD cadre or any other kind of cadre, I wonder whether the hon. Minister is in order not to get the organisations that are actually under his control to send a medical team down to ZNBC to check the eye sight of the television reporters or, maybe, he could take Hon. Chitika’s sniffer dogs to check what they been ingesting.

Mr Chairperson, it is a very serious matter when the Government media publishes stories that might be taken to encourage lawlessness from either side - the MMD cadres who feel it is some kind of sealed approval or from PF cadres who feel it is alright to fight back. Of course, UNIP cadres are not relevant to the present medical situation.

Laughter

Dr Scott: Sir, I wonder if you could rule on this serious matter.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair does not have any ruling on that point of order. Maybe, by way of advice, I agree that we should not do anything that will be seen to encourage lawlessness whether from my right or from my left.

Can the hon. Member, please, continue?

Laughter

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I wish to continue with my debate by saying that indeed, as a nation, we are weak in our monitoring and policing as far as these sophisticated investors are concerned. As such, as a nation, we are not gaining the benefits that we should from the largest contributor to our economy.

I was also going to talk about one aspect where we are weak and this is on development, but the previous speaker talked about it.

Sir, to underscore how important that is, I will give an example of Nchanga Open Pit Mine. When I was still there, we had developed that open pit for almost four to five years, sinking money into that pit just to develop the ore body so that we can now start getting the ore. What happened? In about 2002, that mine was given to Anglo-American Corporation. When they came in, they only went for mining the ore body and ignored any development which meant that we spent almost four years of money sunk in that pit and yet when these investors came, they were just mining the ore.

Mr Chairperson, I was one of the people that made noise and cried foul, but we were overridden. They were the owners of the mine. After they mined that copper and cobalt, they disappeared and pulled out of the mine. When the new owners, Vedanta or KCM, came, they continued mining and trying to develop from the top all the way to the bottom and they still have not gotten the ore. That is one of the operations which they say they might close. This is because of something that was done almost six to seven years ago in the way of not developing the mine.

Mr Chairperson, this is also happening in other mines. I am very concerned because  Mufulira has been given as an example. When these investors move out, we, as a nation, will be left with a shell and will not be able to develop these mines. Instead, they will be closed. My question is; where is policing and monitoring? The point which I am trying to say is that what we need is to strengthen our policing and we need to given teeth to this ministry to bite so that when we report on development figures, this ministry should be able to say we should not do that because we are protecting this asset for the Zambian people and for our children. That is why I would propose that, probably, the role of ZCCM and the ministry should be strengthened.

Sir, on monitoring, I would like to say something on gemstone like the previous speaker said.

Sir, in this budget, the monitoring and production of gemstone and export has been reduced to zero. I would like to pose a question that gives me concern because, as a nation, we have already said that that gemstone mining has bigger potential than any other sector to bring wealth to this country. There is potential to sell US $500 million a year in gemstones. One project by ZCCM was for the sole purpose of tapping into this potential and making sure that the benefit of our full participation…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, before we went for tea break, I was talking about the monitoring of the gemstone industry in the area of production and marketing.

Mr Chairperson, I was saying this is one industry or sector that this country can gain so much revenue from. It is also a fact that the people involved in mining of gemstones have been under declaring the value of gemstones which they are getting from the country.

 Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa : In fact, some years back, people could just declare US $2 million worth of gemstones, but when you go out to the people who buy those gemstones, they will tell you that they spend over U S $300 million which means that there is gross under declaration and, therefore, as a country, we are losing. The ministry responsible for monitoring and catching these people puts K0 in the budget. I wonder why. I wish that could be looked at so that, as country, we gain benefits from this strategic industry of the gemstone and precious stone mining.

Mr Chairperson, I did allude to the Mufulira Mine…

Interruptions

Mr Simuusa:… and the implications of not putting a membrane under the leaching operation. What it does is that it allows the acid which they are using to leach through the rocks and into the water systems that people drink. No wonder, on the Copperbelt, we have people that have brown teeth and troubled stomachs and they are skinny. It is because of this acid that we are drinking. This is also because of people who break the rules are with impunity. Therefore, we are weak in monitoring them as a country.

Mr Chairperson, on the other side, I tell myself that we cannot talk much because we do not own these mines. They sold these mines at almost 100 per cent shareholding to the new investors which means that they can do almost anything they want. If I own a vehicle…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chairperson: Mr Chairperson, if I own a vehicle, it will be very difficult for someone to tell me what to do with it because it is mine. That is why we need to encourage local ownership of these industries. Having said that, I would like to congratulate the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development for encouraging local people to come forward and take ownership in Luanshya Mines. I said that is good. We are now coming to something that we have been advocating for.  We need to encourage ownership as a party or even as an Opposition.

In fact, personally, I remember that at the time I was still in this industry, I was thinking about the best way to encourage local development. You have to keep something. For example, when the mines were being sold, I was one of the people saying that we should have kept one unit such as Nchanga Division since it was the largest. We would then run Nchanga and let it compete with the external investors. This was the time when we had Tip Top. Instead of killing Tip Top, you allow Fanta and Coca Cola to come in and, meanwhile, you keep your Tip Top and keep encouraging it to compete with those foreign brands. You would find that your Tip Top would be world class very soon. That is what happened in Japan and India. Right now, we cannot compare with those nations even if we were at the same level twenty years ago. Therefore, that is a breath of fresh air and would like it to be encouraged.

Mr Chairperson, advice to the Government is that there is an opportunity in Albidon. There was a point of order raised by Hon. Garry Nkombo that Albidon had gone on care and maintenance and one of the reasons is that they failed to raise money to put into the mine.

Before I end my debate, I would like to state that if we want local ownership of mines, we should also include prospecting and exploration. We cannot say in one breath that we give mines to Zambians and yet we deny Zambians the right to prospect.

For example, if you went to Chingola, the whole stretch, from Chingola to Solwezi, has been given to a foreign prospector. I think it is Glencore or something like that. If you went to Solwezi, the whole stretch from Solwezi to Lumwana - I do not know how far - has also been given to another foreigner, I believe a Chinese. If you go to Luapula, the same scenario applies. We have demarcated the whole country in big prospecting licences given to foreigners and, therefore, leaving no chance for a local like me to get an area to prospect and possibly develop into a mine.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to request the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to re-look at the way these tracts of land are being allocated in the name of prospecting. On one hand, we want to encourage local ownership of mines while on the other, we are denying Zambians the right to prospect and possibly develop the resources into a mine.

Finally, Mr Chairperson, since we are saying that mining is the biggest contributor to the Gross Domestic Product, I wish to state that, as a country, we need not say but act. However, in our actions and despite the mining crisis, we should take serious and deliberate measures to ensure that, as a country, we benefit from the mines. Otherwise, posterity will judge us if we fail to guard this resource that God has given to us as a nation.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: We seem to have exhausted debate on this Vote. From the three of you that are indicating, I hope that one can promise me that he will bring in new ideas.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute on this Vote.

Sir, I wish to start by saying that what is happening in the mining industry clearly shows that this Government is full of cowards.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Whatever is happening in the mining industry …

Hon. PF Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: … clearly shows that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: … that this Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! Order!

Mr Kambwili, you are aware that the Chair always wants you people to argue your case so that you can convince the others to follow your line of debate. However, if you begin by calling them cowards, they may not take your advice kindy. Please, debate humanely.

You may continue.

Mr Kambwili: When I look at what is going in the mining industry, I tend to believe that probably my colleagues in the Government have been fed with some kind of butter …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … such that they cannot open their mouths …

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … to defend the Zambians from what is obtaining in the mining industry.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Why do I say so? Mr Chairperson, I say so because miners are losing jobs everyday. However, the professionals are telling us that at the current copper prices, miners should not be declared redundant because when these investors took over the mines, the price of copper was much lower than it is today. This Government has no teeth to bite.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: This is because it is letting the foreign investors get away with anything they are doing in the mining industry.

Mr Lubinda: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: At the end of the day, we will remain with less than 10,000 people employed in the mining industry.

Mr Chairperson, I want to put on record that Zambians have never failed to run the mines as insinuated by this Government and the previous Government.

During the time of ZCCM, we had capable people who were running the mines. One of them is the current Permanent Secretary in the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development. Let me take this opportunity to thank His Excellency, President Bwezani Banda, for appointing Dr Beene. He is one of the most experienced mining managers in this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: I worked with Dr Beene at ZCCM Nchanga Division. When I was an Industrial Relations Officer, he was our Metallurgical Manager. I know his abilities. He is a man of integrity and I am sure that the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development is going to drastically change with his presence.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: These men, like Dr Beene, were running ZCCM better than the expatriates. Why did ZCCM collapse? It was because of abuse. ZCCM was abused by the Government then. ZCCM used to buy vehicles for Government departments and hon. Ministers. ZCCM used to buy mealie-meal for soldiers, the police and many others. Since their profits were used on unproductive issues, ZCCM collapsed. Therefore, it would be wrong for anybody to insinuate that Zambians failed to run the mines. With what is happening in the mining industry today, in my view, I feel that the best way to go is to nationalise the mines.

The issue of Luanshya Copper Mines is a lesson that we should learn from. These investors have decided to pull out on their own without anybody pushing them. One wonders what we are waiting for to chuck them out.

Mr Chairperson, I got worried when I heard some people from this Government saying, “No, we have to be very careful in the way we handle the exit of the shareholders of LCM”. Colleagues, posterity will judge us harshly.

Dr Scott: Hammer!

Mr Kambwili: These people bought this mine for US $7 million and I am reliably informed that on exit they are asking for US $85 million as shareholder’s loan and $16 million to pay the creditors. And yet they bought the mine at US $7 million.

At Luanshya Copper Mines, the conveyor belt from the plant area to Baluba was constructed at a cost of US $8.5 million and that was in the late 1980s.

Hon. Member: US dollars!

Mr Kambwili: The cost of the conveyor belt is more, by US $1 million, the cost of the amount you sold the mine. The same investors that bought the mine at US $1 million less than the cost of the conveyor belt came to Luanshya and sold off the winding engines at US $2 million and misled this Government that the money was used to buy dumper trucks. We have not seen those things in Luanshya.

When people give you information, you must be able to verify this information. These guys were clever. You were duped. They knew that when they paid US $7 million and immediately move on site, they would regain their US $2 million by selling the winding engines, and you allowed them. That is why I am saying, for lack of a better term, Mr Chairperson, this Government is full of cowards.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, I ruled on that one.

Mr Kambwili: I am much obliged. I withdraw the term.

This Government does not have the ability to deal with the issues in the mining industry. Why should people that bought the mine at US $7 million, on exit, at the expense of the people, ask for $85 million plus $16 million to exit the mine? This is terrible! All we are supposed to do is to continue negotiating with LCM investors, on one side, and bring new investors to Luanshya to continue running the mine while you are discussing. The people of Luanshya are not going to be held at ransom by these gon’ga investors ...

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … by asking for money that they know that this Government …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

What does the term “gon’ga” mean?

Mr Kambwili: Fake investors.

The Deputy Chairperson: Alright.

Mr Kambwili: The people of Luanshya are not going to be held to ransom by fake investors who want to gain $85 million from Luanshya Copper Mines and yet they paid $7 million. This is sad.

Hon. Minister, the people of Luanshya are suffering. I have stated before, on the Floor of this House, that I am not going to rest my case over Luanshya until we are given a specific period when the mine is going to re-open.

I appreciate the fact that the District Commissioner of Luanshya reacted very quickly when there were peaceful demonstrations and brought our concerns to the President. However, it is going to almost two weeks and we have not heard the President …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Kambwili: … respond. He promised us that he was going to study the case and respond. Up until now, the President has not responded.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I want to clearly state that next time, I will not go to State House in gum boots. I will go to State House without clothes ...

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … to fight on behalf of the people of Zambia. Since you have never seen that you are going to see it. I promise you that if you are not going to open the mines, next time you are going to see Hon. Kambwili …

Hon. Members: Naked!

Mr Kambwili: …without clothes, …

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: …. for lack of a better term.

Mr V. Mwale: Niliti tikaoneko iwe?

Mr Kambwili: You all know that the people of Luanshya are suffering but you want to pretend. I would like to appeal to this Government to stop this idea of giving fake promises over Luanshya Mine. You should not be telling the people that ZCCM will take over and the next day you say, you will wait for an investor. What is the way forward for Luanshya Mine?

Mr Chairperson, when we had the protest, we invited my cousin, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development, but he was scared to come and address the miners. I called the hon. Deputy Minister for the Copperbelt Province but he was also scared to address the miners. What are you scared of when these are the people who gave you the mandate to rule this country? When they call you, you must rush to listen to them because you are servants of the people and you should be prepared to give them answers since that is the way forward.

Mr Chairperson, do not be scared of the people because you are the same ones who will need them in 2011 and if you run away from them today, I can rest assure you that you will have it thick in 2011.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, last week the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development said that they allowed Luanshya Copper Mines to sell the winding engines because they knew the state of the mine. That is a joke Hon. Minister, are you serious when you give statements in this House because there was an investor in the name of PUKU Minerals who wanted to invest in Luanshya Mine?

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: I can rest assure you …

Hon. Members: Question!

Mr Kambwili: I can challenge you in the presence…

Interruptions

Mr Mbewe: Question! Declare interest.

Mr Kambwili: I can challenge you in the presence of Dr Beene who worked at Luanshya Mine that 18 and 28 shafts are still viable mines. Mr Chairperson, copper was depleted at 14 Shaft and not at 18 and 28 shafts. Therefore, the hon. Minister should not come to this House and state that they could not give the licence because they know the state of the mine. When did you go underground at 18 shaft, hon. Minister? Can you, please, be serious with what you say? In any case when an investor says they have the data that this is viable, why should the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development say that this mine is not viable? Just give them the licence to go and see for themselves. Why are you still protecting the investors who have pulled out? You did this to PUKU basically to protect the people who sold the winding engines.

Hon. Member: Tiziba nibanzako abo.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I would like to warn the hon. Minister that the people of Luanshya …

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … the people of Luanshya hon. Minister…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can the hon. Member address the Chair?

Mr Kambwili: Let me warn you hon. Minister, through the Chair.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No! There is no direct warning like that. If you want to give advice to the hon. Minister, say, ‘let me advise him’. Then you will be addressing the Chair.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, let me strongly advise you…

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: … hon. Minister, through the Chair, that the people of Luanshya want the winding engines back.

Mr Kaingu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Katema: Tekeni ichisana chenu imwe!

Interruptions

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, I want you to give me a serious ruling on this hon. Member who is barking so loudly …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kambwili: Foolish!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us debate humanely in the House because hon. Minister the use of that word is not good. Please, withdraw it and make your point of order.

Mr Kaingu: Mr Chairperson, should this hon. Member who is not co-operative in this House be allowed to continue calling this Government with unparliamentary words whilst we are quietly listening to him?

Hon. PF Members: Withdraw that!

Mr Kaingu: I want your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Member continue debating humanely, please?

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I want to strongly advise you, hon. Minister, that the people of Luanshya will not allow those gong’a investors at Luanshya.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I stopped you from using the word gong’a by asking you what it is. Use the right words.

Mr Kambwili: I mean those fake investors at Luanshya to run away with the winding engines. We want them to bring back the winding engines because we believe that 18 and 28 shafts are still viable and that PUKU are still fighting in the courts of law over 18 and 28 shafts. Therefore, it is wrong for this Government to have advised the current investor to sale the winding engines at 18 and 14 shafts.

Mr Chairperson, when Anglo-American Corporation pulled out of Konkola Copper Mines, the British Government gave us £78 million to sustain the operations at KCM on condition that should you find an equity partner, this amount should be given back to the Government. To date, KCM has not given this amount back to the Government. In any case, if this £78 million …

Ms Lundwe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Lundwe: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Roan in order not to state when he is going march in his birthday suit?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Can the hon. Member continue, please?

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that the British Government gave the Zambian Government £78 million to sustain the operations at KCM on condition that if new equity partners are found, this amount should be given to the Government of Zambia for the people of Zambia. To date, Sir, and nobody talks about this amount. If we had this £78 million, the problem at Luanshya Mine should have been resolved because we could have taken the same amount and loaned it to ZCCM Investment Holdings in order for them to sustain the operations at Luanshya Mine. Mr Chairperson, I would like to tell the hon. Minister that the Zambian people want this £78 million paid back to the Government.

Mr Chairperson, the issue at KCM must be looked at seriously. Mr Chairperson, KCM was running a smelter in Kitwe. When a new smelter in Chingola was built, they retrenched all the workers at the Kitwe Smelter and employed new workers at the Chingola Smelter. Surely, if we had a Government providing checks and balances, can such a thing happen? What was supposed to happen is that they should have transferred those people from Kitwe to Chingola to operate the new smelter, but this Government has allowed these investors to retrench people and employ new people to run the smelter at Chingola.

Lastly, but not the least, Sir, I want to appeal to the hon. Minister that the miners in Luanshya did not receive the K27.3 billion which you paid them because they had loans with the banks and all the money went to service the loans at the banks. I would, therefore, like the hon. Minister to see that we access relief food, from the Office of the Vice-President for the miners.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: These miners did not plan or budget for the loss of their jobs and they have lost all their income. Therefore, it will only be reasonable that the Government cushions them by giving them relief food.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Mines and Water Development may wind up, but before you do so, let me just advise Hon. Kambwili, who has just sat down, that we would not like him to go anywhere without clothes.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think it will be better to go with clothes.

Hon. Minister, can you continue, please?

The Minister of Mines and Water Development (Mr M. Mwale): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Let me begin by thanking the hon. Member, who debated in support of my ministry’s budget. I listened to the issues that were raised by the various debaters. They all border on virtually the same issues.

If I may start with Hon. Chanda, he raised the issues of job losses, pollution in terms of water contamination and the pulling out of would-be investors at Mopani. I would like to state, on behalf of this Government, that, indeed, we have provided the enabling environment for would-be investors, but we will not sit idly by, as we see our people lose their jobs. This is a listening Government and is monitoring the situation emerging on the Copperbelt very carefully.

Mr Chairperson, out of this privatisation, it is the issue of lessons learnt. What have we learnt as a nation? Issues have been raised about the unions and as to what is happening between the National Union of Mineworkers and Allied Unions (NUMAWU) and Mineworkers Union of Zambia (MUZ). I would like to inform Hon. Chanda that the unions are at liberty to bargain on their own and the Government will not interfere in their operations.

Hon. Milupi, debated so passionately about the decrease of monies allocated to my ministry, by over 30 per cent, from K42,193,263,246 to K29,823,220,257. I would like to state that due to the economic recession, there has been an anticipated reduction on revenue at the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, resulting in reduced allocations to all Government institutions and functions. Even my ministry has not been spared.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: However, my ministry is challenged to perform within budgetary constraints. As I mentioned in my earlier statement, my ministry will have to employ professional staff this year, an activity which has not been adequately catered for in the budget due to budgetary constraints. I will, in due course, as advised by the Minister of Finance and National Planning, be approaching this august House for supplementary funds to enable my ministry undertake this important exercise.

Mr Chairperson, as regards my ministry’s supervisory role, it has been better put by the various hon. Members, including Hon. Simuusa, who have debated. It is agreed that in times like this when the mining industry is in private hands the Government’s presence should be felt at each and every operation.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: This is why, Mr Chairperson, we have seen the need to recruit professional staff so that we can closely monitor these operations. As regards the issues of the mine tax regime, hedging and variable profit, I wish to state that although Hon. Milupi raised these issues while debating my Vote, I think it will be best left to the right portfolio which is the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and I will not dwell on that matter.

Mr Chairperson, as regards the issue of Luanshya Copper Mines …

Mr Kambwili: Yes, yes.

Mr M. Mwale: … may I take this opportunity to clarify the air.

Mr Sichilima: But do not undress.

Mr M. Mwale: We have clearly stated, as a Government, that as we are negotiating the exit modalities of the current owner of Luanshya Copper Mines, we are also negotiating with any would-be investor of Luanshya Copper Mines.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: If at that time or, after analysing the exist modalities, we are not satisfied, we will not allow a gap in Luanshya. That is where we are talking of ZCCM – IH moving into Luanshya.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: We do not want a gap. This is the issue that I have talked about repeatedly.

Mr Mbewe: Wamvera Kambwili?

Mr M. Mwale: However, Mr Chairperson, some colleagues want to politic at every moment, where even issues are very clear.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr M. Mwale: As for the hon. Member who is questioning, I will just advise him that not many would want to see him in his birthday suit.

Laughter

Mr Mbewe: Arrest Kambwili.

Mr M. Mwale: As regards social corporate responsibility, my ministry will continue to engage the mining companies to ensure that they meet some their responsibilities.

Hon. Chongo debated so eloquently about Mopani Copper Mines in terms of underground activities and, really, as the hon. Member is coming from the industry, he demonstrated a full understanding of what goes on in the mining industry.

Mr Chairperson, this Government, as I have already alluded to, is monitoring whatever is emerging on the Copperbelt and we will not allow a situation that would place more mines under care and maintenance. We will be requesting any mine owner who wants to put any unit under care and maintenance to surrender these assets to the Government.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: And we have all the authority to do that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Wamvwa Kambwili? Have you heard?

Mr Kambwili: Icongo iwe mutumbuka.

Mr Mbewe: Tikumanga iwe.

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as regards consolidating our positions in the boardrooms, this would mean increasing our shareholding through ZCCM-IH and as I alluded to much earlier, you cannot have a strong voice in a boardroom if you have a share holding of 15 per cent or 10 per cent.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: It has to be increased to levels of 25 to 30 per cent so that your influence can be felt in the boardroom.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: At the current levels, Hon. Chongo should take note that the current shareholding is one of a weak position.

Hon. Nkombo raised the issue of Albidon Mine closing. I would like to state that what we have about Albidon is that it is not closing, but being put under care and maintenance. The underground operations will continue normally. That is in terms of development considering that the development of the ramp lagged behind. Let me, at this time, take advantage to say a few words to our colleagues in the mining industry. Their levels of out-sourcing on services are a big worry to this Government.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: What that means, Mr Chairperson, is that you, as a company, have no control in terms of the costs. You have a run on your costs. Those who are from the mining industry will agree that you cannot operate a mine without a resident geologist.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. Mwale: You cannot operate a mine where you out-source all the mine development. You cannot operate a mine where even the mining operations themselves, in terms of production, are outsourced. It means you have no control over your costs. This is an area where we, as a Government, have been consistent …

Mr Kambwili: Lelo walanda.

Mr M. Mwale: … that these mining operators should revisit in order to lower their operating costs.

Mr Kambwili: Lelo walanda.

Mr Mbewe: Lomba ufuna ukavulilepo?

Laughter

Mr M. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Simuusa alluded to the fact that the mining owners are very sophisticated and we may not be able to monitor them fully. However, I would like to give him a bit of peace in that the Zambia Revenue Authority is now being capacity built and they are visiting the mining operations to monitor the costs and also in terms of revenues. That is a big step in that we will be monitoring the activities of the mining companies closely.

Mr Chairperson, may I indicate and appeal to the hon. Members in this House to have confidence in their hon. Ministers.

Mr Kambwili: What?

Mr M. B. Mwale: I can demonstrate that even though the mine owners may be perceived to be so sophisticated, only yesterday, through my able hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, they were challenged as to why their operating costs are not lowering. Operating costs were supposed to have reduced by over 30 per cent considering the fact that the kwacha has weakened.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: As regards membranes wherever leaching operations are being carried out, I would like to challenge Hon. Simuusa who visited Mufulira with Hon. Mukanga and Hon. Chanda …

Mr Sichilima: They are not here.

Mr M. B. Mwale: … that the membranes are there. The other two hon. Members can say otherwise if I am being economical with the truth. Let us give credit where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: As regards the gemstone sector, I entirely agree that it is a challenge. It has always been a continuous challenge to the previous Governments in terms of monitoring production and revenue. As a ministry, we have taken note of this to see how we can continue monitoring this sector so that we can increase the revenue from it.

Mr Kambwili interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Kambwili, who would like to debate as a disciple for the people of Luanshya, has never been to my ministry to give me his good ideas. My office is open to him so that we can agree and find a way forward on the Luanshya Copper Mine.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: However, he chooses …

Mr Shawa: To go naked to State House.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: He has been saved considering the fact that others have completed my sentence.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: I entirely agree with him that the price of copper that is currently obtaining is good and can sustain the operations of the mining companies. Considering what was indicated in the due diligent studies, the current copper price is about US $1.5 per pound. I also agree that Zambia has not failed to run the mines and we have able managers. We have one heading Mopani Copper Mine and others who are still in the industry who can come to the helm of our mining operations.

Mr Kambwili: So, you agree with me.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, though Mr Kambwili, in his debate, said that the mine owners in Luanshya are fake investors, I take it they are his bedfellows considering the fact that he has been a beneficiary of scrap metal sales.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as regards pornography, it is no wonder considering …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! There should be no mention of pornography here.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, can you move onto something else.

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, it can be seen that his political grouping loves to get political mileage but I wonder whether they will continue gaining any more political mileage.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as regards Puku Minerals Limited, may I inform the hon. Member, who probably could have done us some good if he declared some interest, that this company was going to undercut Mulyashi ore deposit and to anybody who knows what mining is, this is unacceptable. As a Government, this is why we are saying that we knew exactly what was obtaining in Luanshya.

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as regards Konkola Copper Mine’s (KCM) new smelter …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr M. B. Mwale: I am responding …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, I stand a very serious point of order. First and foremost, I have no interest in Puku Minerals Limited. Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead the ‘ouse’ …

Hon. Government Members: It is ‘House’.

Mr Kambwili: It depends on where you come from. I am a Bemba and where I come from there is no ‘H’.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead the House …

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … that Puku Minerals Limited wanted to undercut Mulyashi Project when at the time we had a meeting with his predecessor, the Vice-President and …

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your point of order?

Mr Kambwili: The due diligence report that Puku Minerals Limited showed us with the hon. Minister at that time had nothing to do with Mulyashi. Is he in order to mislead the House that these people wanted to undercut the Mulyashi Project? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chair is mindful of the fact that you expressed some worry on Puku Minerals Limited and the hon. Minister is also responding to your reference to this company. So, I think let us hear him debate.

However, by way of guidance, and I do not want to seem to gag the Executive, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to summarise his response so that it does not seem to be a policy debate again. I know that he is capable of doing that and it will assist us to move on.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Hon. Government Members: Bwekeshapo.

Mr M. B. Mwale: I excuse the hon. Member. When I talked about undercutting Mulyashi, I was not referring to undercutting a deal but was referring to mining below the ore deposit.

Mr Sichilima: Cizungu.

Mr Kambwili: Aah!

Laughter

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, as regards KCM’s new smelter, …

Mr Sichilima: Ema hon. Minister aba.

Mr M. B. Mwale: …wherever new technology is adopted …

Mr Kambwili: Iwe, wale enshafye ifi ma bus ku Luanshya.

Mr M. B. Mwale: … there are consequences of job losses.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude …

Mr Kambwili: Sichilima, wali makanika wa fima bus.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Kambwili,

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You see, when you do that, you are giving the impression that the Chair is helpless. My intention is not to send people out because you seem to take pleasure in being sent out. No! Let us follow the rules and listen.

The hon. Minister can continue.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to acknowledge the support that my fellow hon. Members of Parliament are rendering through constructive criticism and suggestions on how to improve the performance of my ministry.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

VOTE 14/01 ─ (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development ─ Headquarters ─ K9,013,727,320).

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 3 ─ Support to Institutions ─ K1,200,000,000. Why are we budgeting K1.2 billion for these institutions when they are inactive and their operations are almost non-existent.?

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Mr Chairperson, this allocation of K1.2 billion is meant for the maintenance of the regional mining bureaus in Livingstone, Chipata, Mkushi, Solwezi and Kitwe.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 14/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 14/02 ─ (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development ─ Geological Survey Department ─ K11,905,074,353).

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, on page 138, Programme 11, Establishment of National Oil Company, Activity 01 – Preparation of the Structure – K172,000,000. Last year, we allocated K200,000,000 to prepare the structure for this company. This year, again we are calling for K172,000,000. We do not know whether there is a drop of oil at this company and yet we want to allow K372,000,000 in total. Would the hon. Minister state what structure we are creating with all this money?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, on page 138, Programme 11, Establishment of National Oil Company, Activity 01 – Preparation of the Structure – K172,000,000. The funds will meet the cost of the establishment of the structure of the National Oil Company as per recommendation of the Petroleum Committee. This activity was not carried out last year because we were repealing and replacing the Act and it was concluded in the last quarter of last year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/03 – (Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development – Mines Safety Department - K3,609,895,532).

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, on page 141, Programme 10, Dismantling of Arrears - 2007, Activity 01 – K100,000,000 and on page 142, Programme 7 Dismantling of Arrears - 2007 – K100,000,000. I would like the hon. Minister to tell the House what arrears are these that we are dismantling?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, on page 141, Programme 10, Dismantling of Arrears - 2007, Activity 01 – K100,000,000 and on page 142, Programme 7 Dismantling of Arrears - 2007 – K100,000,000. This involves arrears in terms of electricity, telephone and water bills.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, on page 140, Programme 7 – Inspections, Activity 01 – Inspections – Large Mining – K230,260,000. There is a reduction in inspections from K350,000,000 to K230,260,000 this year when the number of accidents on the mines have increased from nine to twenty-four last year. I am wondering why we are reducing. I need clarification on that, Sir.

Mr Nkhata: Mr Chairperson, on page 140, Programme 7 – Inspections, Activity 01 – Inspections – Large Mining – K230,260,000. The reduction is due to a number of activities undertaken last year including the purchase of inspectors’ vehicle.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, on page 140, Programme 7 – Inspections, Activity 05 – Enforcement of the Environment Protection Regulations – K42,000,000. I am aware that environmental considerations actually are very costly. Would the hon. Minister explain why there is such a reduction because this is also tied to safety?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, on page 140, Programme 7 – Inspections, Activity 05 – Enforcement of the Environment Protection Regulations – K42,000,000. The provision is a counterpart funds from the Government. The larger component for this will be provided by the World Bank under the Copperbelt Environmental Project.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, on page 140, Programme 07 – Inspections, Activity 04 – Inspections-Environment – K136,036,000. There is a reduction of K155,000,000 to K136,036,000. I would like to find out what milestones are you setting as a nation in safety, health and environment.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, on page 140, Programme 07 – Inspections, Activity 04 – Inspections- Environment – K136,036,000. The House will agree that the resource envelope this year is limited and it has to cater across all the ministries.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairperson, 0n page 141, Programme 2 – General Administration, Activity 10 – Revolving Fund –K210,000,000. Although this revolving fund is shrinking year, by year, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what it is all about, who is benefiting and where is this money going?

Mr Nkhata: Mr Chairperson, on page 141, Programme 2 – General Administration, Activity 10 – Revolving Fund –K210,000,000. The funds are meant to pay or motivate members of staff as per condition of service.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 14/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 14/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 18 – (Judiciary – K127,666,999,977).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to present the 2009 Budget for the Judiciary.

Mr Chairperson, the core functions of the Judiciary include the following:

(a) Administer justice through resolving disputes;
(b) Interpret and safeguard the constitution and the Laws of Zambia;
(c) Promote the Rule of Law and contribute to the maintenance of law and order in society;
(d) Uphold democratic principles; and
(e) Protect Human Rights of individuals and groups.

The above functions are executed through the existing court infrastructure which include the Supreme Court, High Court, Industrial Relations Court, Subordinate Courts or magistrates courts, small claims courts and local courts.

Mr Chairperson, it is indisputable that the population, especially in urban areas, is growing at a fast rate. Unfortunately crime is also exponentially growing to the extent of outgrowing justice infrastructure. This has led to the undesirable backlog of cases at different levels of the court system. To address the situation, the Judiciary has a programme to build more court houses, recruit and train more adjudicators and support staff.

To this end, a total of twenty-four local courts were built in 2008, countrywide. These included the following:

Lusaka Province

Chilenje Local Court

Luapula Province

Kambwali Local Court, Bwalya Mponda Local Court and Matipa Local Court

Eastern Province

Ndake Local Court, Mwanjabantu Local Court, Maguya Local Court, Chinunda Local Court, Kambombo Local Court and Tembwe Local Court.

Southern Province

Choongo Local Court, Muwezwa Local Court and Namalundu Local Court.

Western Province

Kahumbu Local Court

Central Province

Mailo Local Court, Serenje Local Court and Chibale Local Court.

Copperbelt Province

Mpongwe Local Court and Chimfunshi Local Court.

Northern Province

Nkole Mfumu Local Court, Luwingu Local Court and Mukupa Katandula Local Court.

The construction of the subordinate court in Nakonde in Northern Province was initiated last year and is soon to be opened. Construction of Shang’ombo Subordinate Court in Western Province started late last year and preparations of building plans for Mansa Subordinate Court were completed last year. The construction of the same will start this year. A number of local courts are in a state of disrepair due to old age. Besides constructing new court houses, the Judiciary is also carrying out rehabilitation works on the court buildings. Last year, a total of thirty-five local courts were rehabilitated countrywide.

Hon. Members, I am the first person to agree with you that there are a number of areas requiring construction of new court houses and rehabilitation of existing ones, especially local courts. As a Government, we are alive to the demands for court facilities. However, we can only do so much within the confines of the resources at our disposal.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Training of local court magistrates was conducted in Western, Southern and Copperbelt provinces. The training workshops are meant to equip local court magistrates with knowledge on civil and criminal court procedures, human rights and judicial code of conduct among other topics. An induction course for newly recruited Judges and magistrates was conducted in July, 2008 and support staff attended a number of courses within the course of the year.

Limited resources notwithstanding, the Supreme Court held eleven sessions in 2008. The High Court held seventy-three sessions and heard 2,637 civil cases and 449 criminal cases while the Industrial Relations court heard 240 cases. Subordinate courts heard 4,040 civil cases and 9,935 criminal cases. The local courts countrywide heard well over 35,000 civil cases in 2008. We need to double the above output figures to have an appreciable impact on the backlog of cases, especially at High Court and subordinate levels.

In the continued effort to improve justice delivery, the Judiciary with technical and financial assistance from Investment Climate Facility for Africa has embarked on the computerisation of court operations. The first phase will involve the computerisation of one Supreme Court, one High Court and one magistrate’s court in Lusaka. The first phase is expected to be completed by the end of 2009. In 2010, the project will be extended to all court rooms in the Supreme Court, High Court, industrial relations court and subordinate courts at provincial headquarters.

Mr Chairperson, it is hoped that once the Judiciary is computerised, the following will be achieved:

(a) the time cases take to be completed will be significantly reduced due to the robust case tracking system that will be in place;

(b) the misplacement or stealing of court records will become a thing of the past because there will be a data base with copies of all active and completed cases;

(c) all judgments will be centrally stored and be accessible countrywide; and

(d) the Accounts Department will be able to trace all monies paid in form of fees and fines.

It is also pertinent to mention that the Judiciary has established a website. The Judiciary activities can now be accessed on www.judiciary.gov.zm. The Judiciary is alive to the adage that justice delayed is justice denied and so everything is being done within the purview and resources of the Judiciary to ensure quick disposal of cases.

I now present the 2009 Budget for the Judiciary which I urge hon. Members to support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Sir, I wish to thank the hon. Members for their thunderous support.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 18/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 18/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 21– (Loans and Investments – Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K1,570,427,425,968); and VOTE 37– (Ministry of Finance and National Planning – K866,546,539,375).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Chairperson, I am honoured to present to this august House the 2009 Budget Estimates for the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Sir, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is guided by a mission statement and I quote:

“To effectively and efficiently co-ordinate national planning and economic management, mobilise and manage public financial and economic resources in a transparent and accountable manner for sustainable national development and the well being of the people of Zambia.”

Mr Chairperson, in achieving the mission statement, my ministry has, among others, set the following objectives:

(a) to view existing and develop appropriate economic and financial policies in order to create a suitable macro-economic environment, enhance economic management and promote economic development;

(b) to improve transparency and accountability in the management of economic and financial resources in order to ensure that the Government expenditure is within the approved provisions;

(c) to improve resource mobilisation in order to provide sufficient resources to facilitate the execution of national programmes and projects;

(d) to develop and implement debt management strategies that will result in a reduced national debt stock; and

(e) to design and implement an integrated information communication technology infrastructure and support the information systems for effective and efficient information delivery and exchange.

Mr Chairperson, the recent developments in the global economy have raised a number of challenges for our economy. As an institution, my ministry has been undergoing internal reorganisation so as to enhance our capacity to guide the economy towards the attainment of the Vision 2030, the current global economic difficulties notwithstanding. The establishment of the Planning and Economic Management Division, in 2008, has given us the capacity not only to plan ahead, but also better mitigate against adverse effects of external as well as domestic shocks.

Sir, the hon. Members are aware that the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) has been the principal document guiding this country’s development efforts since 2006. However, the FNDP covers a five-year period and its lifespan comes to an end in December 2010.  To consolidate the nation’s effort towards the Vision                                                                                                                                                                               2030, my ministry will, this year, commence preparations of the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP) to cover the period 2011 to 2015. The preparation process will be highly consultative and will focus on the development programmes from the districts. I would like to urge the hon. Members to sensitise their constituencies about this process and participate at both the district and national levels.

Mr Chairperson, in line with my ministry’s objective of improving public financial management and accountability, my ministry will continue to spearhead the implementation of reforms under the Public Expenditure Management and Financial Accountability (PEMFA) Programme. One of the critical reform activities being implemented under this programme is the Integrated Financial Management Information System (IFMIS) which will improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the Government to mobilise, allocate and utilise public resources.

The IFMIS will integrate different functions and management information system of different entities through a shared database and information technology infrastructure. This will provide managers with the tools to plan, manage and effectively control the use of public resources and facilitate decision making. In this regard, my ministry will commence piloting the IFMIS in eight ministries, provinces and spending agencies this year.

Sir, in 2009, my ministry will continue pursuing plans to establish a Treasury Single Account (TSA). This is intended to streamline the current Government banking and treasury operations, particularly the problems associated with maintaining numerous commercial bank accounts. In addition, the creation of the TSA is expected to minimise the possibility of having huge unspent balances in commercial banks at the end of the financial year.

Sir, with the help of German Technical Co-operation, my ministry, working with the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, is finalising the preparation of the Medium Term Economic Framework (MTEF) budgeting manual for councils. As part of the capacity building process for councils, my ministry, this year, intends to roll out the MTEF and ABB to councils in order to streamline and standardise the budgeting system at that level. The introduction of the MTEF/ABB systems in councils will contribute towards the strengthening of the public finance management systems for the local government.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is committed to ensuring that the country’s debt remains within sustainable levels. In this regard, borrowing and debt contraction will be limited to economically viable infrastructure and development projects. Following Cabinet approval of the Post-HIPC Debt Strategy and Policy, my ministry will this year, focus on review of the existing debt legislation so as to bring it in line with the new policy.

Sir, the Government recently launched the Private Public Partnership Policy (PPP). The main objective of this policy is to foster public and private sector synergies in the development of infrastructure in the country. In line with the directive in the President’s Speech during the opening of Parliament, my ministry will, this year, embark upon the establishment of the PPP Implementation Unit in the ministry.

Following the enactment of the Public Procurement Act in 2008, my ministry will continue working towards rationalising and streamlining the tender process. Under this process, the Zambia National Tender Board (ZNTB) will eventually evolve into a regulatory and supervisory organ while the formal tendering process will be devolved to implementing agencies.

Mr Chairperson, one of the major highlights of my ministry’s programme this year, relates to the Census of Population and Housing that the country is expected to conduct in 2010. This exercise is critical if the country is to maintain comprehensive, updated and reliable statistics on population and other variables that will facilitate effective socio-economic planning. My ministry will, this year, start preparatory work for the conduct of the 2010 Census of Population and Housing.

Sir, my ministry is also in charge of supervising a number of grant-aided institutions. With Government assistance, some of these institutions have the potential to sustain their operations and can save the Government resources in terms of monthly Government subventions.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has embarked on the initiative to assist some of these institution with the capital required to place them on the path to self sustainability. As a result of this initiative, I wish to inform this august House that my ministry has been able to wean off two institutions, namely, the Pensions and Insurance Authority and the State Lotteries Board. This year, the ministry will assist the Lusaka Stock Exchange in the establishment of an automated trading system. This effort will not only contribute towards the efficient functioning of the stock market, but is also expected to enable the institution graduate from dependency on the Treasury for their operations.

Sir, my ministry is determined to improve internal operations in order bolster efficiency in the delivery of our mandate. In this regard, the ministry will, this year, adopt improved performance assessment systems under the Total Quality Management (TQM) Programme and enhance synergies among departments through implementation of the Seamless Communication Strategy. Through this innovation, all departments and grant-aided institutions under the ministry will enter into service charter, that is, Performance Assessment Framework, with the Controlling Officer. These service charters shall form the basis for assessing the performance of each department in grant-aided institutions. It is expected that this initiative will bring about continuous commitment towards meeting the objectives and goals of the ministry and ensure that the resources allocated in the 2009 Budget are applied prudently.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning is responsible for both Vote 21 and Vote 37.

Sir, Vote 37, Ministry of Finance and National Planning is the operational head of expenditure. Under this head of expenditure, my ministry has a total allocation of K866,546,539,375. Like the other ministries and spending agencies, this allocation is a reduction over the 2008 allocation.

Mr Chairperson, the reduction is the level of operational resources to my ministry and indeed many other ministries and spending agencies was to allow investments in other areas such as education, health, agriculture, tourism and infrastructure, which are critical for sustained long term growth of the economy.

Sir, within the 2009 allocation of K866,546,539,375, a sum of K706.3 billion relates to programmes that are of benefit to the entire Government system and not the ministry. These included the following:

(a) K128.1 billion for employers’ share of pensions contributions;

(b) 176.5 billion for dismantling of arrears that were accumulated by ministries, provinces and spending agencies up to 31st December, 2002;

(c) K205 billion grant to the Zambia Revenue Authority;

(d) K110.4 billion for public financial management reforms under the PEMFA Programme, including support to the office of the Auditor- General;

(e) K51.2 billion for emoluments for constitutional posts;

(f) K21.9 billion for preparatory work for the census, and

(g) K13.1 billion for gratuity.

Sir, despite the expanded organisational structure, the ministry has had to rationalise its programmes so as to be within the balance of K160.3 billion available for personal emoluments and operations of all the departments as well as other grant-aided institutions under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Chairperson, under Vote 21, Ministry of Finance and National Planning – Loans and Investment, my ministry will continue to facilitate payments of contributions to the major regional and international organisations, providing for national projects under the direct charge of the Ministry of Finance and National Planning as well as the management of Government investment. In addition, my ministry will, through the National Road Fund Agency, continue to co-ordinate all payments relating to the rehabilitation and construction of roads.

Sir, may I conclude by urging the hon. Members to support my ministry’s Budget to enable us move the economy forward.

Mr Chairperson, I beg thank you.

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I stand to support the Vote and I will be very brief.

Sir, secondly, it is the issue of legal framework that I wish to comment on.  I would like to urge the hon. Minister to bring the Bill regarding the Public Private Partnership (PPP) to Parliament as soon as possible before we adjourn sine die. The other issue is that of the Implementation Unit. I urge you that the positions there should be advertised and, preferably, those who prepared that policy document should not be allowed to apply because you cannot be a player, coach and referee at the same time. Let us allow those people who did not participate in the formulation of this policy to apply for the positions because we want neutral people and those with the interest of the nation at heart to implement this policy. That is why I said that, preferably, those who were involved in the formulation of the document must be excluded because I can smell a rat there.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I just want to thank the hon. Members, once again, for the thunderous welcome they gave me.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 21/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 37/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 26 ─ (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services ─ K30,100,685,981)

The Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services (Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to present the Estimates of Revenue and Expenditure for the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services for 2009.

First of all, I wish to thank His Excellency, the President, Mr Rupiah Banda, for giving me the opportunity to serve in this active and, indeed, important ministry.

Hon MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: The importance of this ministry comes from the simple reason that information is at the centre of all activities and, thereby, the activities of the ministry cut across all other Government agencies.

May I also congratulate the media in this regard for their work during the last trying times for our country, that is, the funeral of our late President, Dr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC, and also during the 2008 Presidential by-elections. It is for this reason that my ministry endeavours to improve the capacity of the media through various programmes in order to ensure, firstly, a wider outreach and, secondly, to ensure the provision of truthful and accurate information to the population.

Mr Chairperson, during 2008, my ministry continued playing its critical role of providing Zambians with information and executed programmes aimed at developing the media industry. With the K30.1 billion for this year, the ministry will continue with the Rural Television Project under which forty-six transmitters were bought and installed. This year, we want to embark on the maintenance of this equipment. The ministry also started with the enhancing of the Wide Area Network with the purchase of satellite telephones for use with the Broadband Global Area Network (BGAN), which will enable our officers be able to send news, pictures and video clips to head office when fully operational. Progress was also made in the acquisition of components for the first printing press under our programme of decentralisation of printing presses. 

Mr Chairperson, my ministry also continued with the video shows, especially in rural and peri-urban areas, where information on issues including HIV and Aids, productive health and other development programmes was given and sensitisation carried out. Besides this, the Zambia News and Information Services (ZANIS) managed to produce sensitisation materials, among them, posters and publications, while educating the people through drama, documentaries and discussion programmes about the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) and the need to contribute to the Constitution-making process.

Mr Chairperson, recent events have shown how the people of Zambia have come to appreciate information in this democratic dispensation for them to make informed decisions and choices. For them to do that, the media must give them truthful, accurate and timely information. It is for this reason that Zambians are today calling for more access to information held by the Government and other public institutions.

Mr Chairperson, in response to this, the Government is completing the Freedom of Information (FOI) Bill for enactment by Parliament later this year.

Mr Chairperson, in a bid to ensure media diversity and to attain a wider media outreach, the Government, through the policy of liberalisation, continues to strive to develop the media industry. My ministry is encouraged by the presence of a number of community radio stations, as these have given a voice to those who were previously limited to being passive listeners and has increased access to locally relevant and contextual material and information.

However, Mr Chairperson, while the electronic media industry has seen a considerable growth with thirty-seven private radio stations, and six television stations in operation, the print sector continues to face serious challenges. These range from the cost of newsprint, cost of printing presses and distribution of newspapers around the country and readers’ dwindling disposable income.

Mr Chairperson, the importance of this sector is meaningful more so now as we need to explain to the nation the current global trends. Indeed, the global economic crisis will have an impact on investment in this sector as the need for more information increases. The onus will now be on the media that are there to continue providing a balanced view of all the matters that affect national development.

On our part, we have decentralisation of the printing presses under ZANIS as a Fifth National Development Plan programme. Once these printing presses are installed in provincial centres, the local language newspapers and those from the private sector will be printed close to the rural populations. These facilities will be offered to the public media to also print their newspapers and remove the cost of running them to these provinces. This will ensure quick distribution and a better informed rural populace.

Mr Chairperson, I am glad to inform the House that the first provincial printing press is already in the country and the ministry is in the process of locating a building for it in Chipata.

The House may wish to know that in this year’s budget, with a reduced ceiling of K30.1 billion, the ministry has budgeted for a second printing press. This, too, may face the problem of increased cost due to the prevailing global economic downturn. Procurement of the remaining equipment such as the guillotine …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I am glad to inform the House that the first provincial printing press is already in the country and the ministry is in the process of locating a building for it in Chipata.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: The House may wish to know that in this year’s budget, though with a reduced ceiling of K30.1 billion, the ministry has budgeted for a second printing press. This too may face the problem of increased cost due to the prevailing global economic downturn. Procurement of the remaining equipment such as the guillotine and binding machines will be met from the K6 billion in the 2009 Budget. The balance will be used to procure the press while the rest of the printing equipment for the second printing centre will have to be funded from the same budget.

Mr Chairperson,   there is a growing interest in the use of video for information dissemination. I am, therefore, pleased that with the support received from this House last year, my ministry was able to procure sixteen more video vans with AV Announcers to be distributed to the remaining ZANIS district offices that do not have this equipment. With this consignment, we shall be able to have a video van in every district where we have officers.

Mr Chairperson, my only appeal is to the provincial and district administration to assist my officers in terms of operational resources to avoid these vans becoming white elephants. On the other hand, I would like to state that these are specialised vehicles with specialised equipment and should, therefore, not be diverted to other uses. Many times, my officers have complained about these vehicles being taken away from them to run errands. I must say that in the districts where these vehicles will be abused, we will have no hesitation to withdraw them from there.

Mr Chairperson, with the realisation that radio is the most effective and affordable means of communication, my ministry is working towards improving radio reception throughout the whole country. My ministry, through the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation has made a number of strides in this area. During 2008, two short wave antennas were purchased, and the dismantling of the old short wave antennas has started as a way of improving short wave radio reception, especially in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, the corporation will this year launch a second television channel covering Lusaka as a start. This channel will allow ZNBC more air time for developmental programmes and for advertising. The channel will be extended to the Copperbelt and, later, to other provinces. I am glad to inform the House that my ministry has spent about K2 billion so far on the channel and it will be operational by mid this year.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, my ministry has continued giving support to other institutions such as the Zambia Daily Mail, Times of Zambia, Zambia Institute of Mass Communication and Zambia Printing Company. This is done in order to improve coverage and, in the case of ZAMCOM, to enable the institute increase capacity in providing effective training to the journalists.

Mr Chairperson, the programme for the Fifth National Development Programme caters for the improving of the radio and television reception throughout by ZNBC. For example, short wave reception of Radio One and Radio Two has improved through the purchase of short wave antennae.

Mr Chairperson, short wave transmitters were installed under a Chinese-funded project. The actual machines were American while the antennae were Chinese. On the onset, shortwave reception did not perform to the expectations and the antennae were identified as the problem. Recommendations were then made by ZNBC to the Government to change the antennae and resulted in the installation of two new antennae and at the Short Horn transmitters towards the end of last year. This has brought the improved reception during the day, but night reception is still a problem and refinements are still being made on machines to resolve this.

Generally, the short wave is problematic because it relies on conditions in the sky which cannot be controlled. The solution has been to expand FM-Transmission to districts that have Radio One and Two. Hence, this year, about K800 million has been budgeted for to improve on the FM.

Sir, with regards to the television reception, sixty-three transmitter sites are now getting television signals. These are in identified population centres which have a pre-requisite for installation. The exercise is ongoing and follows rural electrification.

Mr Chairperson, in some parts of the country, such as Mwinilunga, reception is still poor because of the old age of the transmitters. The original transmitter which had 100 Watts power had to be replaced with one that only has 20 Watts, hence the poor reception. I, therefore, want to assure this august House that this is being dealt with to ensure that Mwinilunga also has good reception.

Sir, for good governance to take effect, there has to be transparency. In all this, information is the cornerstone, not only for efficient economic activities, but also for a good relationship between people and their Government. It is with this in mind that my ministry continues to play its role in ensuring that national programmes are well highlighted. My ministry has continued to publicise the work of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) through its debates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, my ministry is also keen to see that media law reforms do take place so that the media are able to operate in a free environment. The Freedom of Information Bill will soon be tabled back in this august House.

Sir, my ministry spent the better part of last year in learning the process of freedom of information by inviting other stakeholders for training both at home and abroad. This is so because we want the people to appreciate that the Freedom of Information Bill is not only about the press, but is of interest to all parties.

Sir, we have looked at a number of other countries that have the Freedom of Information Bill, including the United Kingdom and we find that we need to do a lot of work before this Bill can be passed. I must mention, therefore, that even those countries that seem to have an effective Freedom of Information Act in place, they did not do it overnight. Considerable preparatory work was undertaken to implement the law effectively. In our case, there are a number of things that should not be overlooked. One such thing is that the implementation of this Bill will stretch the administrative and record keeping capacity of all institutions as well as, most importantly, change people’s mind sets. This is important to ensure that the Freedom of Information Bill is well implemented.

Sir, the Independent Broadcasting Authority will come into place this year with a mandate of promoting the development of broadcasting services. This is the body that will now attend to all new applications for broadcasting licences.

Similarly, the ZNBC Board of Directors will be appointed later this year following a few amendments to the 2002 Act.

My ministry has also taken a keen interest in matters relating to copyright and piracy. We strongly support the need for people to protect their intellectual work and discourage others from pirating the same. Therefore, as a ministry, we will continue to conduct sensitisation programmes aimed at reducing the number of counterfeit products on the Zambian market. This has of late moved from musical and literary works to include spare parts, electronic equipment and even medicines. A lot of pirate and copyright materials have been seized in border areas with the help of other stakeholders such as the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), Zambia Police, Immigration Department, council police and Office of the President. In order to further strengthen this network, my ministry decided to make amendments to the Copyright and Performance Rights Act Cap 406 No. 44 of 1994. This should become operational this year in order to enhance copyright protection.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is determined to see an information-rich society that is made up of a number of players. We can all attest to the many challenges that we face as a nation and how important it is to have our citizens get access to this information. I am, therefore, urging the hon. Members to see the information sector as a partner in development.

Sir, it is my hope that this house will give my ministry the support it deserves to implement its various programmes aimed at keeping the Zambian people both at home and abroad well informed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Muyanda (Sinazongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you, once again, for giving me an opportunity to debate the Vote on the Floor. Sir, I will be very brief and precise.

What the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services has omitted in his presentation, for support of this Vote, is the reorganisation of ZNBC. We pay K3,000 to ZNBC but it is giving us a raw deal as viewers.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, ZNBC needs brand new blood of management. Young, dynamic and innovative leaders are required at ZNBC. Change the management at ZNBC.

For the past seven years that I have been in this august House, there has been an assurance from the Government year in and year out that this august House will be receiving live transmission during our debates. Namibia and South Africa are doing it. Look cross and upwards of the continent, all the debates are live. What is this Government hiding by not showing how the debates are conducted in this House? It is not only about the debates but it is also about the laws. When new laws are passed in this august House, the people of Zambia must be attuned. This is constructive advice.

Sir, this Government is mischanneling the funds by opening up a second channel instead of improving on the one that is there and bringing live broadcasts in this august House. If the Government manages to bring live broadcasts during elections, why should you fail?

Hon. Government Member: The NCC is live!

Mr Muyanda: There you are! Another hon. Member who has long ears heard that the NCC is live. Yes, you are doing a good job at the NCC and we want it to continue.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Shawa: Ukokolepo!

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, the importance of bringing ZNBC live to the nation is not only informing the people of the Republic of Zambia about the laws that we enact in this House, but also for the people to know the quality of representation, by the people they voted for to represent them in this House. The more you are hiding the more you are forcing the public to listen to private media.

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear! Point!

Mr Muyanda: Ultimately they distort what is prevailing on the ground.

Hon. UPND Members: Point! Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: It is the distortion that ZNBC has failed. Fire the lot because you do not need them. You do not need a management that is not attuned to what is happening in the competition world. If MOBI and MUVI television stations can do better by going on the ground and show a true image of what is happening in Lusaka and outside Lusaka, what about ZNBC? We pay K3,000. What do we pay to MOBI TV? Nothing! Something is wrong. The heads must roll.

Hon. UPND Members: Yes!

Mr Muyanda: Your Honour the Vice-President, Sir, through the Chair, you are a competent colleague. We have deposited our trust in you. Please, save ZNBC. There is something seriously wrong with that management. They are wandering in the wrong direction and misleading the Government. They even conceal the good job which you have done in some areas.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: They are bringing wrong signals and not showing Zambians the truth. We want the truth. If there is anything that we should do after we have voted for this money, we would like to see our money properly utilised, firstly, by the change of management at ZNBC. I believe in fair play.

Mrs Musokotwane: We do not want MMD cadres!

Mr Muyanda: We do not want cadres to be in management who just show pictures when the President is going somewhere else to have a meeting. No! We would also like to see the truth. When a Member of Parliament goes to complain about his constituency, …

Mr Mubika: They show!

Mr Muyanda: … they would even twist the picture. The cameras zoom in any direction and make you look ugly and stupid as though you are not talking sense.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: That is what ZNBC does.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: That is not right!

Hon. UPND Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: My appeal to you, hon. Minister, is that you should fire that inefficient management. From the top, the heads must roll. They are not here to defend themselves. Start with the Managing Director and say, “My friend out of this place” and bring in new blood.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: There are a lot of young intelligent fellows that have deposited their loyalty to the people of the Republic of Zambia and not merely buying suits and wondering about starving the Zambians of efficiency that this country is lacking.

I now wish to talk about newspapers because time is running out. The Times of Zambia and Zambia Daily Mail must change their attitude. Encourage them to be impartial. They have not been impartial in their reporting of late. How many Members of Parliament or hon. Ministers have been quoted with their pictures? They fear the popularity of Members of Parliament.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: We want this money to be well utilised because it is taxpayers’ money. Taxpayers’ money requires balanced reporting.

Some private newspapers have become popular because they disclose the truth.

Hon. UPND Member: Yes!

Mr Muyanda: He who seeks justice must go with clean hands. If you are looking for justice you must go with clean hands.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: The two newspapers must also do the same; the Times of Zambia and Daily Mail.

We want a time when a Member of Parliament is quoted for complaining about his constituency, his picture or image is also shown in the papers. At the moment, they are hiding. They twist facts which we say.

Mr Chairperson, something is really wrong. Let the papers report freely. I agree that the newspapers have to be responsible. Report responsibly and not as recklessly as some other private papers that we know do. Please, we do not want those. We are not going to mention any newspaper here.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: They are not here to defend themselves.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: However, we know how notorious they are when it comes to reporting.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order! Order!

Mr Muyanda, can you use another word instead of the word “notorious”.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: I withdraw the word “notorious” and substitute it with a very good parliamentary term, “we know how irresponsible they are”.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: How outrageous they are.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muyanda: We would like the Times of Zambia to report sensibly and diligently the deliberations of this year’s budget because, legally, this is the House which has power to give an allocation to the Times of Zambia through the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe (Chadiza): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Vote.

Mr Chairperson, I stand to talk on behalf of the people of Chadiza because I am the voice of the people of Chadiza.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon. Minister, the Permanent Secretary and a Director-General at the ZNBC for the job well done. Mr Chairperson, Chadiza has had no radio reception since Independence but, last year in September, you gave us the radio reception and so the people of Chadiza are very happy.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: You are a working Government, hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Long live the hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Long live the Permanent Secretary.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Mr Chairperson, the people of Chadiza are saying thank you very much to the Director-General of ZNBC.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Hon. Member: On whom?

Interruptions

Mr Muyanda: The point of order has been approved. Sir, is the hon. Member in order …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member is raising a point of order.

Ms Chitika: He has finished his debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Sorry, I did not notice that he had finished debating.

Laughter

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Chadiza in order…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Please, continue with your point of order.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Chadiza in order to praise the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services when Chief Mwanya is very bitter because he is not receiving any signal from ZNBC? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair’s serious ruling is that since the hon. Member for Chadiza had finished his debate, I will not make a ruling.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, when a fish is rotting, it starts to rot from the head.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: I would like to deal with two items. First of all, I would like to briefly deal with the Government-controlled media and, a little at length, with the private media.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us listen.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, last year, I was the Chairperson of the Committee on Information and Broadcasting and, in that capacity, I was privileged to take your Committee to five provinces of this country, specifically with regard to one item.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: This was with regard to the management of the boards of community radio stations. Sir, from our investigations in situ, on the ground, regarding the specific radio stations that we visited, an item regarding Members of Parliament participating in the boards of community radio stations came to light.

Mr Chairperson, taking all the submissions as a whole, 96 per cent of those who submitted stated that it would be creating undue influence if politicians were to sit on the boards of community radio stations. Relating to that concern and drawing a parallel to the ZNBC Board, on the strength of the ZNBC Act, on this board sits a very senior and high ranking cadre of the Movement for Multi Party Democracy…

Mr Lubinda: Shame! Bamalukula.

Major Chizhyuka: He sits tight as a Member of the ZNBC Board …

Interruptions

Mr Nkhata: What is wrong with that if they are qualified?

Major Chizhyuka: … to make decisions and create the kind of…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We have to behave in accordance with what is required in the House. That kind of thing is not accepted. If you want to counter, do indicate to speak and then you can be recognised. Do not debate whilst seated.

Will the hon. Member continue, please?

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, at times, I like that kind of heckling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is not a question of you liking it, but a question of following the rules of the game and so the Chair is advising all hon. Members here not to do what was done. Whether you like it or not is immaterial.

Will the hon. Member continue, please?

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I started by saying that when a fish starts to rot, it starts from the head. You could easily have seen the symptoms of a rotten head by some of the heckling that is appearing from your right.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have already made a ruling on that one. Do not go back to something…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: … I have made a ruling on.

Interruptions

Mr Musosha: That is an insult!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Major, just get on with what you want to say.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, it is my submission that for the purpose of ZNBC, an organisation to which the twelve million Zambians pay the K3,000 to watch television, it is important that we have a balanced board to control the ZNBC management. You will find that at some point, you will start blaming the management when, in actual fact, the problem does not lie in the management at ZNBC. The actual problem does lie in the board. If you ask journalists at ZNBC why they do not do the following, they will tell you that they have fear of the known. Just try them tomorrow, they will tell you this and this is in a country in which we have tried to enshrine democratic principles but the reporters at ZNBC still have fear of the known.

Mr Chairperson, I almost ask myself if it is fear of a rotten head. Mr Chairperson, I would like to deal a little bit …

Interruptions

Mr Musosha: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Musosha: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to raise this serious point of order. I am getting disturbed each time I hear about a rotten head without knowing who the rotten head is. It is quite disturbing and annoying. Is he in order to start talking about a rotten, head referring to the people on your right hand without pointing at the rotten head? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: If you recall when he began talking about that rotten head referring to my right, I said that was not correct. Now, he is talking of a rotten head in general terms. So, I am listening so that I see where he is going with his rotten head.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: So, I will not interfere for now until I see the direction.

Can you continue, please?

Mrs Musokotwane: The guilty are always afraid.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the private media. The media is the fourth estate. Over the last two weeks and, indeed, ever since the elections, I have taken painstaking research to acquaint myself with how the media operates in other civilised countries and  how they relate to political parties. I want to tell you that, indeed, in other democracies the media is the fourth estate after the Legislature, Executive and Judiciary. In some of these democracies where the Legislatures - Parliaments - are only an extension of the Executive in the absence of the Separation of Power principle, the media takes the role for transparency and accountability in nation states. I have asked myself, how the Washington Post has behaved with respect to the kind of support they give to specific political parties. I have asked myself: How does The Sun reflect their views with respect to specific political parties? It is common practice all over the world that, indeed, private media will favour certain political parties and they will go out of their way to demonstrate, as private media, as a private newspaper and as a print media to support those whom they think will provide the best chance possible for the people on the basis of their own beliefs.

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Major Chizhyuka: You may not like it if you are on the other side, but that is the truth of the matter.

Mr D. Mwila: Iwe ka Mbewe ikalafye.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, that is the truth of the matter. All you simply have to do is to, since the world has become a small global place, go on the internet and punch these digits, you will find this information. It is there glaring for you. So, in this vein, I wish to inform the media out there, through you, Mr Chairperson, that, indeed, their independence depends on the ability to do that which they think is right in accordance with their editorial policy. I want to tell you that if you are going to go into politics and you are not prepared to pay money, do not get into that game. You know that Barrack Obama for a thirty minute advert on all networks, he spent US$30 million. He is the President of the United States today, but he was prepared to pay the dollars in order to get there. If you are in the ruling party or the Opposition and you do not have the clout and ability to pay the money to the private media, do not blame those that have the capacity to pay and get their adverts coming up.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: This is how the world is. This is how politics is done and I am saying this even for our colleagues on this side, who think that it is now opportune for them to continue rubbishing private media. They must just read a little bit and they will find that is how private media behaves.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: As you know, Mr Chairperson, I have decided to take this decision, to state these matters clearly, knowing very well that I come from Namwala and that my support base is the grassroots.

Mr Muyanda: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Because my support base is grassroot, the tribulation that grassroot has passed through has been on the basis of the amount of coverage that the private media has given to the indigenous people of this country. I have a lot of examples here, over fifty pages, of how the private media has been able to show the suffering of the people of Kabanje in Mazabuka, and the subsequent victory of the people of Kabanje.

Mr Muyanda: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: In here, I have got reference of the private media coming to the aid of the people of Chiawa and the subsequent victory by Senior Chief Mukamambo nullifying a decision to provide land to foreigners. In here, I have documentation to show how the private media has unearthed scandals which ordinarily should have been unearthed by the Anti-Corruption Commission. Where was this Anti-Corruption Commission which is given money which this House delivers and approves? They do absolutely nothing. It has to take the private media, which we are rubbishing today in this House, ...

Mr Muntanga: Very good.

Major Chizhyuka: … to come to the aid of the people of Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I am getting slightly concerned by the web that is engulfing, like Shaka’s impies or Shaka’s spears, the private media to a point where there might just come a time when you would not know we will be less freer as a country.

Mr Hamududu: Very good.

Major Chizhyuka: Having said those things and those words, I want to urge the private media to be cautious. The private media must be cautious of the movement towards the so-called self regulation. If the private media feels that as a result of the push for self regulation, it is a push for enstranglement of the freedom of the press, the private media must back out. This is our country. Zambia is our country. We have no other country that we shall go to. Those of us who have taken on Governments and other authorities in the past, to determine a future for our people, know how valuable private media is. We also know that we knocked on the doors of the public media and the public media were saying, “Major, we cannot travel.” That is because of fear of the known.

Mr Chairperson, when we look at the people of Namwala now, they can buy any kind of car that they want because they defeated the Mbeza Irrigation Project. We look at the people of Mazabuka, in the Mwanachingwala Conservation Area, and Copperbelt Butcheries Association, those people are freer.

They are able to go about their various enterprises to make money because the private media came to their aid. We look forward to a time when the private media will stand up for the people of Sichifulo and show that …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … there was maximum injustice.

Mr D. Mwila: Bwekeshapo, mudala.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I thank you.

Hon. Oppositions Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I must agree with the hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services that information is power. Indeed, in the absence of proper information to a given society, that society is as good as dead. It is true that the media is controlled by the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services in Zambia. Therefore, it is the duty of this ministry to ensure that the nation is properly informed. The Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services controls three major media institutions: ZNBC, Zambia Daily Mail and Times of Zambia.

Mr D. Mwila: What about the Zambia News and Information Service (ZANIS)?

Mr Kapeya: However, I am worried about how much funding is extended to these institutions. I must admit, and the hon. Minister will agree with me, that very minimal funding is, indeed, extended to these three media institutions despite the kind of work that they do for the good of this nation.

Mr Chisala: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Kapeya: The hon. Minister, in his Policy Statement alluded to improving radio signals for ZNBC. At one point, he said that it would be difficult to totally improve the shortwave signals.

Mr Chanda: Tiye, hammer, Kabusha.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, allow me to differ a bit with the hon. Minister.

Mr Chisala: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: There are radio stations that are airing their programmes on shortwave and, indeed, all parts of the country receive their signals very clearly. I will give an example of Radio Christian Voice. At any time of the day, there is a clear signal whenever one tunes in to Radio Christian Voice.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, you may wish to know that in Mpika, where I come from, Radio Christian Voice is the only Zambian radio station that we pick on shortwave transmission. Even a radio station from as far as Dar-es-Salaam is clearly picked in my district. Where is the ZNBC shortwave radio signal?

Last year, we were informed by the ministry that reception on shortwave would improve by the end of the year. However, as I speak to you today, ZNBC can hardly be picked in Mpika. Maybe, in Lundazi where you come from, Mr Chairperson …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not bring the Chair into the debate.

You may continue.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I concur with the sentiments raised by General Chizhyuka that last year …

Hon. Members: He is Major Chizhyuka.

Mr Kapeya: I am sorry, Major Chizhyuka.

Interruptions

Mr Kapeya: Indeed, we toured most of the community radio stations in Zambia and found that most of those stations, with a radius of only 20 kilometres, were not doing much in informing far-flung areas. When we came back, we said – and, in fact this has been alluded to several times in this House - that the Government should come up with a deliberate policy to set up community radio stations in every district.

Mr Chanda: Hammer, hammer!

Mr Kapeya: Maybe, in that way, the Government may help to disseminate information to the general populace.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Lights went out in the Chamber.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, we need a statement from Hon. Konga.

Laughter

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, as I was saying, the Government should come up with a deliberate policy to set up community radio stations in all parts of the country. I think that  may help the general population of Zambia to get proper information. In the absence of community radio stations, I think we will have a long way to go in as far as radio communication is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, as a Government, we need concerted efforts in as far as dissemination of information to all corners of the country is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, I said I would be very brief in my debate and, therefore, I thank you very much.

Mr Lubinda and Mr Kambwili stood up.

The Deputy Chairperson: Now, I have a feeling that you both want to say almost the same things. Can one of you volunteer to sit down?

Laughter

Mr Kambwili sat down.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I would like to assure this House that there was no collusion between my good friend and …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! That was just a light moment.

Can you continue.

Mr Lubinda: However, let me thank you for allowing me to debate. In so doing, let me say that I adopt the debate of Major Chizhyuka as my every own debate.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Lubinda: I also commend my own dear brother (pointing at Mr Kapeya) for the value he added to the debate. I want to pick up from where he left when he stated that information is power. Indeed, information is power and the media allows for the enjoyment of the freedom of expression. Free media allows for the attainment of the freedom to receive and disseminate information. An expression is a very important tenet of democracy.

Sir, history has taught us that dictators in the making have one thing in common. The very first thing they do upon assuming power is to gag the press.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Dictators have one thing in common - to destroy the media. We have seen it happen everywhere in the world. We saw it with Adolf Hitler as well as in Africa. We have also seen it in political parties.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, at this point, let me commiserate with my good friend, the man who used call himself my young brother, Jonas Shakafuswa, and my good friend, Chibombamilimo who, today, have been expelled because of expressing themselves.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: No, we should not go to that extent. I do not think that we should take that line of debate.

Can you continue debating without going that route?

Mr Lubinda: Sir, those who came to this House at the same time as Hon. Jonas Shakafuswa and me will remember that in 2003, three very important media Bills were presented as Private Members’ Bills. 

The Bills were the Zambian National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) (Amendment) Bill, 2003, the Freedom of Information Bill, 2003 and the Information Broadcasting Authority (IBA) Bill, 2003. It will be recalled that at Second Reading, those Bills were hijacked by the Government. I was amongst those, including Hon. Sakwiba Sikota and Hon. Dipak Patel, Hon. Jack Mwiimbu and others, pushing for those Bills. The Government negotiated with us and said they would bring the Bills themselves and we gave in. How I wish my colleagues would remember what I said that we are being duped by the MMD Government.

Today, six years later, I am vindicated because the Government’s intention was simply to uplift the ZNBC (Amendment) Bill, the IBA and to shelf the Freedom of Information Bill. Six years after we attempted moving a law here, the Government is still grappling with the Freedom of Information Bill. Over the last six years, they have been busy telling us that they are consulting. I wonder who they are consulting. Which media practitioners have they been consulting over the last six years? Why are they dragging their feet? As though that were not enough, while the whole country is calling for freedom of information, we see a Government that is constantly threatening the private press.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: On a daily basis, we read and hear about threats being leveled against the private press and what is worse is that they are going beyond the media to the individual media practitioners. Dictatorship in the making always starts with the intimidation of the free press.

Hon. PF. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Is this a symptom of the years to come for our country? Are we setting ourselves for a dictatorship? If we are, I want to be counted amongst those who oppose the threatening dictatorship that we see coming into our country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Sir, when we debated the ZNBC (Amendment) Bill on the Floor of this House, I rose on a point of order on the then hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services when he organised ZNBC staff to picket me when I moved an amendment to the K3,000 ZNBC licence fee. Today, again, I am vindicated. When you pay, it will show. What does it show? Everybody pays, but what shows? Rupiah Banda tomorrow, Rupiah Banda yesterday and Rupiah Banda next week. You can literally anticipate …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! We have to address people by what they are. I think it is not fair to talk as if it is somebody outside the House who does not know the rules of the House. Can you address the person you are addressing properly?

Mr Muyanda: You are drunk with beer!

Mr Lubinda: Thank you very much for your guidance and I apologise for that. Let me rephrase and say that you can literally anticipate the news before it starts. You know that the moment the news starts, the first item is President Rupiah Banda. At the end of the news, it is President Rupiah Banda as though there are no other presidents or people who are newsworthy in this country.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order. There is only one Head of State in this country, not other presidents.

Can you, please, continue?

Mr Mulyata interjected.

Mr Lubinda: Let me move away from that. In line with what my colleagues talked about on the significant role that the private media is playing in this country, you will see that when there are matters of corruption involving our colleagues in the Government, it is not the Government media that carries them. It is only the private press that carries those stories. When we call for the Freedom of Information Act, it is not because we want to demean anyone in office. We want to ensure that we empower the citizens of Zambia to get directly involved in the fight against corruption. We want the Zambian people to have access to information being kept by the Government.

For example, not too long ago we read in the private press about some cadre influencing Government decisions on which contracts to offer and which contractor to pay.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Had we the Freedom of Information law in this country, a lot of our citizens would have gone to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and Ministry of Home Affairs to demand that they are shown the delivery notes against which people are being paid because, for all I care, those invoices and local purchase orders (LPOs) were nothing but payments for delivering air, and I have my own reasons to suspect so. Unless I am given a good reason not to believe that, I shall go to my grave believing that this Government is selling air and, therefore, collecting taxpayers’ money under false pretences.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: Bebe Mudala, bebe.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I acknowledge the desire of the Government to come up with a second television station. It is a good idea. However, you do not start a second farm before you make sure that the first farm is producing to its capacity. The current Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) station closes at 2300 hours. What is the reason? The reason for that is that they do not have sufficient programmes. Now, if you happen to start a second television station, where will they get the programmes from? If they cannot manage to run the current television station for 24 hours a day, how will you expect them to run two television stations? Are we not ashamed, as a country, that we have a broadcaster who competes unfavourably with small television stations such as MUVI and MOBI who manage to entertain us and give us news 24 hours a day?

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: What is this whole hullabaloo about a second television station when you have a station in Kitwe? Why do you not turn that into an independent of ZNBC so that it can also broadcast independent of the programmes in Lusaka? Is that not a worthwhile suggestion to look at? We should not be excited over things that we know do not add value to our governance.

Sir, my colleagues talked about biased reporting. Let me state, again, that it is so glaring to watch or even just listening to the report on Parliament. When you listen to the report on Parliament, it says the hon. Minister of such and such said this and he was saying this in response to a question by the hon. Member for Zambezi West without saying exactly what the hon. Member for Zambezi West said. The hon. Member for Zambezi West wants to be heard and he can only be heard through the public broadcaster. The public broadcaster should not be skewed in its broadcasting or reporting.

Sir, I was talking about threatening media practitioners. Let me say that as parliamentarians and legislators, where we not all taken aback at the incidence at Chengelo Radio Station where a broadcaster was picked up by police on the instruction of our colleagues in Government and taken to the police station and made to sleep there and when time came for him to appear in court, they said they shall not proceed for security reasons? What security reasons? This was pure cowardice. Why? Because they knew that they had no grounds on which to arrest Fr. Frank Bwalya.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Let me say that the ideals that people like Fr. Frank Bwalya and many other media practitioners are pursuing shall not be killed by individuals, a collection of individuals or a political party. Those ideals are noble and many Zambians are willing to die for them. Those ideals that shall live on.

Hon. Government Member: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No, I think this time I am not in a position to give that point of order.

You may continue, please.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, can you imagine that in this day and age, with so much advancement in technology, the programme on ZNBC TV which brings news on Parliament still has the footage of the Eighth or Ninth Parliament? It does not show the current Parliament. What is the reason for that? Is it lack of technology? That can be changed by simply coming to Parliament and getting a current footage.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: They do not even have that innovation at all and yet we pay K3,000 per month. What is that money doing? I want to propose to the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning that the K3,000 Television Levy  that we are paying to the broadcaster should be treated the same way as the fuel levy. I would like that levy to be shown in the National Budget. Let Parliament look at the amount of money that ZNBC is collecting per month so that this House has control over the money that is used. As things are, you have given ZNBC Management total leverage on how to use people’s money. The law of the land states that you shall not collect tax from people, save for this House approving it.

 We approved K3,000 for every Zambian who has a box called a television set,  whether it works or not, to be levied without their representatives being privy to how that money is used. That is contrary to the spirit of the law. I, therefore, propose to the hon. Minister of Justice to work with his colleagues in the Ministries of Finance and National Planning and Information and Broadcasting Services to amend the ZNBC Act so that the K3,000 is brought in the National Budget so that all of us are well informed on how that money is used.

Mr Kambwili: Nibamalukula aba!

Mr Lubinda: It not fair that you collect K3,000 from our people and yet you ask us to pay when you want to show football. We still have to pay. That is not fair. How much money do you collect in a month? We do not know.

On your arrangement with Multi Choice, you said to us that people would see ZNBC through Multi Choice. For goodness sake, which Zambian have you seen going on the bouquet of Multi Choice and watching ZNBC if they have not paid for the Multi Choice bouquet? This means, therefore, that again, you told the Zambian people half truths. At that time, it was my good friend, Hon. Mulongoti, who came here and said that they were going to give us coverage so that even people from places that could not access ZNBC airwaves would watch through the Multi Choice bouquet.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, the people cannot access the ZNBC channel through the Multi Choice bouquet unless they subscribe to Multi Choice. That is not fair.

Mr Chairperson, let me end by saying that the Zambian people shall not allow the emergence of a dictatorship through the gagging of the press. We shall protect that with our lives.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Thank you Mr Chairperson. It has been a while since I caught your eye.

Mr Chairperson, I served in this ministry in this able Government and provided good services. I would like to start by thanking the hon. Minister, the members of staff and the Government for working very hard.

Mr Chairperson, the problem in this country is that we forget quickly. I just want to remind my colleagues, especially those on your left that have spoken, that things change. One change I can tell those who might not have been there is that, at one time, Lusaka was a dead town at the stroke of 17.00hrs. However, today, you can go anywhere throughout the night and work. That is change.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: The ministry has worked very hard under this Government. We have seen some of our colleagues who have passed through ZNBC and are working outside the country and have excelled.

Hon. MMD Member: Mwansa Kapeya!

Mr Sichilima: To be a good son, one must take after a good father or parents. For them to excel outside the country, it means that they came from a good country and, indeed, a good institution

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mubika: Mwansa Kapeya!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, for instance, most of us have spoken about ZNBC. When I was in the back bench, I was in the Committee on Information and Broadcasting Services. At one time, when we toured ZNBC, we found that there were about three cars and four cameras. Is the current scenario the same?

Hon. Government Members: No!

Mr Sichilima: This Government has worked. Let us give praise where it is due.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Today, when hon. Members on your left call for the private media, nobody follows them. Our ladies and gentlemen at ZNBC work tirelessly to go and cover them and nobody questions them because there is transport and there is nothing like queuing up for cameras.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Yes, technology changes and there is lot that needs to be done. I can assure you that this Government is going to do just that.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, on one hand, they are saying that ZNBC is not performing according to their expectations and, on the other, they are against setting up a new station.

Probably, they have put it on the left side of their minds not to watch ZNBC. Let me tell and educate them that there are even programmes for children, who we actually choke. In fact, when some of the hon. Members, on your left, walk in their sitting rooms, children scamper.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: We chock the children’s programmes.

Mr Mubika: Give an example.

Mr Sichilima:  These are some of the programmes that ZNBC is looking at. I can assure you that some of the programmes for our children are good, but because of the time limit, we do not have space. The programmes are there, but it is space that is lacking.

The issue of closing the station earlier is probably being looked at, as I mentioned in my opening remarks. Probably, it is even on their programme to air for 24 hours.

Mr Kambwili: It is just probably.

Laughter

Ms Lundwe: Elyo muya ku State House mu ma gumboots, we see you on television.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, let us admit that the operations at ZNBC have improved. The improvement is that, when I was in the back bench in 2001 or 2002, very few towns or districts were able to watch television. Now, the television signal is everywhere and almost every corner of this country has a television signal. Is that not something to say well done MMD?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Sir, some of my colleagues have stated that some members of the ZNBC Board are MMD cadres. I would like to challenge anyone in this House to mention any member of the board who is not qualified to be on that board. The problem in this country is that when it suits them, then he is not a cadre.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbewe: Yeo, Kambwili!

Mr Sichilima: When you pick somebody who they feel is not really qualified, they complain. You bring in somebody who is over qualified, they cry that he is cadre.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Sichilima: I would like to put it on record that all the members including the two strong women on the ZNBC Board are fully qualified to be on that board …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: … and they are doing a good job.

Sir, they are doing a very good job, indeed. Yes, even the hon. Minister,…

Mr Kakoma indicated.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, he failed to run Zambia Daily Mail.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for granting me this point of order. Is the hon. Deputy Minister in order to mislead the nation that directors appointed on the ZNBC Board are qualified when, in fact, this Government failed to bring their names to Parliament for ratification to scrutinise their qualifications?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member has adequately debated his point of order.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Sichilima: Sir, when you live in a glass house, do not throw stones. When we took over, the Zambia Daily Mail was limping…
 
Laughter

Mr Sichilima: …because of the issue of taking who they think may be qualified, but cannot perform.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Some of the people who were running Zambia Daily Mail are even on your left side of this House.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, Zambia Daily Mail could not even create courier services and yet they were funded year in year out. Today, they are moving in the right direction.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President in order to insinuate that when Government media was limping, it was only managed by those on your left forgetting that actually one of the senior editors of Government media is on the right and he was there at the time this media was operating inefficiently? This is Hon. Vernon Mwaanga.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We should not debate ourselves.

Please, continue.

Mr Sichilima: Sir, this is the problem of coming with half-baked information. Just a point of correction - the strongman, Hon. V. J. Mwaanga never manned Zambia Daily Mail. The institution that he was running was perfectly…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister mentioned that information is power. As much as I agree with him, as Zambians we should be very careful. I think we need to be moulded. Information is about security and if we do not handle it carefully, we can create problems in our own country.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: You even go and start praising private institutions. When you are that side, you may not know and you must as well listen to us. As a Government, we do not merely speak. It is for protection.

Mr Kambwili: Protection from what?

Mr Sichilima: When you are covered positively, you celebrate because you are eating nicely spiced soup. Let it catch up with you. Some people who are being mentioned in the media today were angels ten years ago.

As much as these people talked about corruption and ethics or how they could perform, today, they are involved in corrupt practices and running media institutions as directors. When they are written about, they cry foul and send people, like my colleague, who has just been debating, to come and shut the Government up so that we do not talk about it. We are protecting Zambians, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. MMD Member: Waumfwa Lubinda?

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, this Government supports the private media.

Hon. Opposition Member: No!

Hon. MMD Members: Yes!

Mr Sichilima: This Government is the one that agreed to bring in private radio stations.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, when you hear echoes, it means they do not know what the Government is. We allowed the private media. Community radio stations are dotted around the country. However, we need to be very careful. What happened in Kitwe, for instance, was protection. If they do not value it, one day they will remember.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. MMD Members: Yes!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, a journalist’s pen is more powerful than anybody in the land. What they write is powerful. However, if they write something which is not correct, it is very difficult to correct it. They may correct it in one line, but the headline would already have been read. One such example, which I want to correct, as my closing remark, is that our President warned some private media that because of their involvement in corrupt activities with a company, Zambian Airways, they would close themselves.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Sichilima: What was the headline?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us not go to that extent. The Chair is a bit hesitant because I think that it is not correct. There is a way you can debate it by generally skating around without coming to it.

You may continue.

Mr Sichilima: Sir, as a seasoned Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to move on. I was talking about the private media. We do not like certain articles like editorials. How can an editorial run from the first day of the week to the last day of the week wanting to justify even some of the corrupt activities? We all know what they have been doing.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Home Affairs.

Interruptions

Hon. MMD Member: Hon. Minister of Information and Broadcasting Services.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sorry. The hon. Deputy Minister in the Vice-President’s office was misleading me.

Laughter

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I want to thank all the hon. Members that have debated on this very important Vote. I would like to clarify a number of issues that have been raised, which are misleading the nation.

First of all, the Freedom of Information Bill is not about the media. The Freedom of Information Bill is about accessing information by anybody who wants information from institutions of the Government. This is important for us to understand. This Bill is not about the media and, as a Government, my ministry has consulted with many countries, including the United Kingdom, as I said earlier, on the Freedom of Information Act so that we can come up with what is necessary. Indeed, we have found that not only do we need to sensitise our people, but we also need to put in structures in the Government that will answer when somebody needs information. It is very important that this august House understands this.

Mr Chairperson, it is also very true that hon. Members of Parliament should not sit on the community radio station boards in order to remove partisan interest. It is important that we do not have partisan interest in the community radio stations because they lose the whole purpose of establishment. The Government cannot give money to establish community radio stations, but is has made an enabling environment for us to be able to provide access to finances for these radio stations. This is available and my ministry can advise you on how to go about it.

Mr Chairperson, it is not six million Zambians that are paying K3,000 for the TV licence. This is wrong. Hon. Members of Parliament should do research before you can come and say that because only 150,000 Zambians  are paying K3,000 for the TV licence. This is important. Let us no mislead the nation by saying six million Zambians are paying.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson let me also deal with one of the issues that was raised by my hon. Colleague, Hon. Muyanda, who debated very passionately and also someone else who debated on the need for us to carry out live transmission from here.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to inform hon. Members that we are setting up another channel. This channel is important for qualitable transmission of ZNBC. Indeed, we can give space and time to the National Assembly to have live broadcasts at a cost. It would need to be paid for by the National Assembly.

Mr Chairperson, let me also deal with the issue of the boards. The boards of directors do not direct the ZNBC, Zambia Daily Mail or the Times of Zambia how they must work. ZNBC operates professionally and deals with issues of operations and the board of directors is not involved.

Mr Chairperson, let me also inform this august House, and the nation at large, that ZNBC has come a long way. There are now wonderful and qualitable programmes that are coming on and, therefore, there is no competition. I want to tell you that ZNBC is a national broadcaster. All those other TV stations that are there are locally based and there is not competition with the national broadcaster. Therefore, I want to assure this august House that this national broadcaster is doing a wonderful job in order to ensure that we provide the best for the nation.

Sir, let me clarify the issue of the shortwave antennae. Some of these antennae are Chinese and some of them are American. Therefore, we have to find…

Interruptions

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: There is nothing to laugh about. We have to find a channel in order for this signal to reach our people. ZNBC is doing that for television as well as on radio. You have heard reports from Chadiza of on how it is working. Therefore, we are going step by step in order for us to provide a good service. So, let us give this institution sufficient support for us to be able to deal with that issue.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, I can talk more, but I think we have dealt with the issues that were raised. Let us support this budget and all these institutions in order to ensure that our country has information that can be used by all of us.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 26/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 26/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 26/03 − (Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services − Press and Planning − K15,216,840,126).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have a clarification on Unit 1, Programme 10, Activity 01 − Appointment of the Independent Broadcasting Authority Board − K801,750,000. Last year, we had K500,000,000 and this year the allocation has been increased to K801,750,000. I would like to find out why the allocation to this activity has been increased this year.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

______

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 21st March, 2009.

 

 

APPENDIX TO QUESTION 166

PLANNED REHABILITATION AND MAINTENANCE WORKS 2009

Province              Number                       Dams

Central                   4                              Imansa
                                                              Chashinama
                                                              Kalambanyama
                                                              Saminga

Copperbelt             2                             Mishikishi
                                                             Kamfinsa

Eastern                  4                             Kaimbonye
                                                             Matuna
                                                             Gonda

Luapula                 2                             Muyembe
                                                             Mpofwe

Lusaka                  2                             Katoba
                                                             Kanakantapa

Northern               2                              Mwanduwizi
                                                             Nakonde

North Western     2                               Bombwe
                                                             Kabusenga

Southern             4                               Siamankubi
                                                             Dumba
                                                             Luyaba
                                                             Sijekete

Western             2                                Sishemba
                                                             Lui

Total                  24