Debates- Friday, 13th November, 2009

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DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 13th November, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

___________

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Speaker, I rise to give the House some idea of the business it will consider next week.

On Tuesday, 17th November, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider the First Report of the Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs for the Fourth Session of Tenth National Assembly. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Budget and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 88 - Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock Development; and

 Head 31 - Ministry of Justice.

Sir, on Wednesday, 18th November, 2009, the Business of the House will begin with Questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by the presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. After that, the House will consider Private Members’ Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the First Report of the Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. The House will then resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Budget and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 80 - Ministry of Education; and

 Head 68 - Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

On Thursday, 19th November, 2009, the Business of the House will start with questions, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Then the House will consider the First Report of the Committee on Agriculture and Lands for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. Thereafter, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Budget and the following Heads will be considered:

 Head 76 - Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development; and

 Head 77 - Ministry of Defence.

Mr Speaker, on Friday, 20th November, 2009, the Business of the House will commence with His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time. This will be followed by Questions for Oral Answer, if there will be any. This will be followed by presentation of Government Bills, if there will be any. Thereafter, the House will consider the First Report of the Committee on Communications, Transport, Works and Supply for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly. After that, the House will resolve into Committee of Supply on the 2010 Budget and will consider the following Heads:

 Head 65  - Ministry of Science, Technology and Vocational 
    Training; and

 Head 85 - Ministry of Lands.

The House will also deal with any Business that may be outstanding.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

____________

MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

WORK STOPPAGE AT NCHANGA MINE OF KONKOLA COPPER MINES PLC

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to address the House on the work stoppage at the Nchanga Mine of Konkola Copper Mines Plc (KCM), following a point of order raised by the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili Constituency, Hon. D. Mwila on Wednesday, 11th November, 2009.

Sir, let me highlight a series of events leading to the work stoppage at the mine.

On Friday, 6th November, 2009, employees at the Nchanga Concentrator mobilised themselves around 0700 hours and assembled in the mechanical workshop. They demanded to be addressed by the Mine Workers Union of Zambia (MUZ) and the National Union of Miners and Allied Workers of Zambia (NUMAW) branch officials on the progress of the salary increment negotiations.

The union branch officials addressed them and communicated to them that the permanent committee was going to meet on Monday, 9th November, 2009, after which they would be informed when the negotiations would commence. However, the employees demanded to be given the feedback on the results of the negotiations on Tuesday, 10th November, 2009.

As from Saturday 7th to Monday 9th November, 2009, employees reported for work as normal.

Sir, it should be reported that on Monday, 9th November, 2009, management met with the union as arranged and agreed to begin negotiations the following day on Tuesday, 10th November, 2009.

On Tuesday, 10th November, 2009, employees in departments, other than the concentrator reported for work. However, those from the concentrator convened in the mechanical workshop at 1000 hours and demanded to be addressed by union leaders on the status of the negotiations. Union officials informed them that the negotiations had just started and could not be concluded in one day. However, the employees were full of mistrust and started to sing derogatory songs and chanting anti-union slogans.

Sir, they then marched to the underground department where they reassembled. The union branch officials followed them with a view to calm them down. This, however, seemed to agitate them even further and they became violent.

The mob went picketing around the plant and on their way to the tailings leach plant, they beat up two mine police officers, confiscated and broke one camera, broke two window panes at the systems applications products offices and entered the transport pool yard where they shattered a bus window. The mob started going towards the new smelter which they wanted to vandalise, but were prevented from doing so.

They reassembled at the Nchanga Underground Mining Section and sent word that they wanted to be addressed by the Vice-President-Human Resources and the Human Resources Manager. The two senior officials went to Nchanga Underground Mining Section, but the employees again, refused to resume work, stating that they would wait for their colleagues who where down the mine to knock off. As a result, the Vice-President-Human Resources and the Human Resources Manager returned to their corporate head office without addressing the employees.

Later in the afternoon, four employees representing their colleagues met management and inquired on the status of the negotiations and also demanded to know when they would be finalised and the percentage increment. They were informed that the negotiations should have commenced that morning had it not been for the protests.

Regarding the finalisation of the negotiations and the percentage increment, they were informed that this would be communicated to them through their union as per practice. The four employees were urged to go and explain to their colleagues about the outcome of the meeting. However, it should be observed that the four employees should have met management in the company of their union representatives and not on their own.

Mr Speaker, on Wednesday, 11th November, 2009, underground employees reported for work and went to the change house where they were joined by concentrator employees. They later come out in a huge number and assembled outside the first aid offices. One of their members tried to calm them down, but they grabbed and broke the mega phone he was using. They then started moving to the mine garage where the police in riot gear were stationed. They damaged two damp trucks belonging to contractors before they started exchanging words with the police.

Sir, when the employees become unruly, the police fired teargas. They employees scampered and were driven out of the plant through the Nchanga Gate. They later regrouped outside the plant with non-mining fraternity and started going towards the New Nchanga Flats where they pulled down the fence and broke windows of sixteen flats in total and damaged three cars.

Interruptions

Mr M. B. Mwale: They also set two trucks on fire belonging to a Chinese contractor and looted some casual workers homes. After being dispersed by the police, they went into the township and looted the Union Mealie Meal Centre, broke some windows at the KCM Nchanga Secondary School and hurt one pupil who was given first aid. Gladly, the pupil is out of danger.

Mr Speaker, in the afternoon of the same day, the human resources and security team of KCM along with senior police officials had a meeting with union leaders and it was imposed upon the union leaders to appeal to their members during the Zambia National Broadcasting 19 00 hours news to return to work. This was undertaken.

On Thursday, 12th November, 2009, the workers reported at 0600 hours and assembled at the Nchanga Underground Surface Area. They refused to go down the mine and demanded to be addressed by their national union leaders. As the union leaders begun to address the employees, it was evident that they were not prepared to listen to them and instead demanded to be updated on the outcome of the negotiations. Further, the union leaders appealed to them to go back to work, but they become unruly and violent resulting into the police using teargas to disperse them. However, it should be noted that other operations at Nchanga Mine continued normally.

Mr Speaker, in 2008, the company began negotiations in June and concluded within the same month of June. The employees were awarded the following:

(i) 13 per cent salary increment;

(ii) 50 per cent consolidation of their substance allowance into basic pay;

(iii) employees at the Hot Metal Department where warded 9.5 per cent hot metal allowance; and

(iv)  the remaining 50 per cent was consolidated on 1st July, 2009.

Sir, the above conditions were with effect from 1st July, 2008. The House may wish to know that the previous collective agreement expired on 30th June, 2009. However, management and the two unions agreed to defer the negotiations from July to 30th October, 2009, which was duly granted by the Ministry of Labour and Social Security. As an in house arrangement, management in consultation with the two unions agreed to further defer the negotiations to November, 2009. The outset of these negotiations has been disrupted by the work stoppage at the Nchanga Underground Mine and concentrator employees.

Mr Speaker, according to our labour laws, particularly, the Industrial and Labour Relations Act, Cap 269 of the Laws of Zambia, there is a well articulated process leading to the declaration of an industrial dispute. In this case, the process was not adhered to making the work stoppage illegal. The Government will not protect anybody who has breached the industrial and labour laws of Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: We are appealing to employees at Nchanga Mine to report for work immediately to enable the bargaining units to commence the pending negotiations.

Sir, may I also take this opportunity to appeal to all mining companies not to use the global financial crisis as an excuse for not engaging into meaningful negotiations with the unions.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr M. B. Mwale: Sir, as a result of the work stoppage, the company has lost four shifts of production at Nchanga Underground Mine, tailings leach plant and the concentrator. However, the actual losses are yet to be quantified.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear, boma!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members are free to ask questions on points of clarification …

Hon. Opposition Members stood up!

Mr Speaker: Order!

Hon. Government Members: Kambwili!

Mr Speaker: Order! How can you stand up when I am still speaking?

Mr Kambwili: Ngaba bonse abeminine?

Mr Speaker: Order!

The hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification on the statement that has been issued by the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has just stated that the amount in terms of the loss be brought to this House a little later. I hope it will be in the form of a ministerial statement. However, he should give us an indication by now on what flow shifts in terms of man hours were lost in relation to revenues and taxes and its effect on the national economic development. We need an indication on that.

Mr M. B.  Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to seek the indulgency of the hon. Member for Pemba that the figure be availed to the House at a later stage.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, may I know whether the police force has arrested those who were involved in the ordeal of destruction.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I appreciate the hon. Member for showing serious concern on the events that are taking place at Nchanga. I would like to inform him that some employees have been arrested and investigations are still going on.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development the total number of employees who had gone on strike. Can he also confirm whether management has written letters of dismissal to all the workers?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that 1,500 employees went on strike and these are from the concentrator and underground operations.

With regard to letters of dismissals being written to employees, it is up to the due administrative process that will be undertaken. I am sure that management does not pride in the dismissal of employees, but would rather engage them so that operations are normalised.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what measures have been put in place in the case of employee-employer confrontations so that such a thing does not reoccur.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, before I respond to the question, may I state that management intends to dismiss any employee who does not report for work today. They have been given a deadline.

Mr Speaker, as regards confrontation from employers, I would like to state and inform the hon. Member that in situations like these, it is best for employees and employers to dialogue rather than resorting to violence and damaging equipment as that is a big cost.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, in a spirit of reconciliation, and especially that the hon. Minister is asking the miners to return to work, is there any consideration that the few miners that have been detained by the police could be released?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge the hon. Member that if he is the one organising the miners…

Mr Speaker: Order!

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Do not go that route. You answer the question. There should be no accusations here. You may continue.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, we are urging the miners to continue on the path of dialogue so that we can see that our economy is not affected.

Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that we are fully aware that last year, beginning from 2008 up to the end of the year, we were faced with a global financial crisis and we know that the copper commodity price had collapsed. It has only begun to pick up. Let us give time to see that our industry normalises. We cannot, for sure, state that even the current price of US $6,500 per tonne can be sustained in the long term.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, to prevent recurrence and spread of the same riots to other mines like Mopani Copper Mines, where employees have not  had any increment for about two years, what special measures have been put in place so that these riots do not arise?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, destruction of property is not part of workers’ rights. Our appeal to the employees is to engage their unions so that they can negotiate with managements at various mining houses to see that a collective agreement can be reached. Sensitisation on the process of negotiations is ongoing.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, this confrontation was brought about by the unnecessary delay in entering a new collective agreement. Is the hon. Minister considering taking on board the unions as part of the culprits?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I have difficulties answering the question by the hon. Member. We know that it was not deliberate on the part of management and unions to delay the negotiation process. It is all because the copper price was low. It has only started picking up. As I have stated, we are not assured that we will have this copper price even tomorrow.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Katema (Chingola): Mr Speaker, arising from the fact that the reason for deferring the collective agreement was low copper prices, which is no longer the case now, what does the Government intend to do to Konkola Copper Mines who are, as he stated, hiding behind the global economic crisis? What is he going to do to them for delaying the negotiations?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, the mines are our properties and we have to behave responsibly towards our own property. Any destruction to that property takes us backwards. I would like to appeal to the hon. Member for Chingola that he should have a long-term view of the industry rather than looking at things from a short-term perspective. As I have repeatedly stated, the industry is driven by the commodity price and the price is determined by the market forces. We are not so sure, as I have said, that two months down the line, this same copper price will be sustained. Therefore, we should have a long-term view towards the industry.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that one of the reasons that hindered the mines was because the new Nchanga flats that are being constructed are exclusively for Indians only.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, whether those flats are exclusively for Indians only, it does not justify violence and destruction of property.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, has the hon. Minister considered approaching his colleague at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security to involve the apex organisation, the Zambia Congress of Trade Unions (ZCTU) to work with their affiliate unions to try to work with the workers so that sanity can be brought into the situation and they operate according to the labour laws and established procedures? 
Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, I would like to state that my colleague at the Ministry of Labour and Social Security is very proactive. Through you, Mr Speaker, there are tripartite meetings that are being held to see that we can forge a way forward.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that rent for a high cost house in Chingola is K3 million while that of the lowest low cost house K800,000 per month, may I know from the hon. Minister, roughly, how much the lowest paid employee gets in view of the high cost of living obtaining in Chingola? Secondly, may I know whether the sequence of events, as tabulated by the hon. Minister, have been confirmed that they were the actual happenings by the union?

Mr Speaker: It is one question rule. The hon. Minister will choose one of the two.

 RRR
Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, as per expired collective agreement of 2008, the lowest paid employee had a basic pay of K1,885,249.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwapela (Kalabo): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister state to this House whether these strikes are politically motivated …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mwapela: … and how will the Government deal with the situation to avoid the spread of these strikes to other mines?

Interruptions

 Mr Speaker: Order!

How dare you attempt to prevent a Member from freely expressing his views in this House?

The hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development may answer.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Speaker, considering the fact that there has been a lot of excitement, I would like to inform our colleagues on your left that we, on this side, will not sit idly by. This Government is in control and we are observing the situation. If any of our colleagues on your left will be connected with whatever is happening in the mines, he or she should rest assured that the law will visit him or her.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
_____ {mospagebreak}

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, while appreciating the fact that the Government has filled up potholes on the Great East Road between Nyimba and Sinda, I would like to know whether it has plans to resurface this portion of the road. If so, when will this be done?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda): Mr Speaker, it is our intention to work on all roads. Funds permitting, we will even work on roads such as the one mentioned by the hon. Member.

I thank you, Sir. 

Dr Musonda (Chitambo): Mr Speaker, through you, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the relationship between the Government and the Church, especially the Roman Catholic, is like as at now.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Dr Musonda:  This is in view of the recent media reports that the relationship between the Government and the Catholic has reached its lowest ebb.

 The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we are still working with the Roman Catholic Church and other churches. In fact, we are the ones providing funding to various mission hospitals.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Therefore, there should be no perceived tension between the Government and the Catholic Church. 
Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: However, I would like to say that we have observed that there are some individual Catholic priests who are fond of making statements, particularly in the Post Newspaper and, maybe, what they say does not reflect the views of the Catholic Church as such.

It is our intention to work with the Catholic Church. In fact, we are involved in several fundraising ventures and events. We attend these events and we would like to encourage dialogue with the church. We would also encourage further meetings, especially with the top brass of the Catholic Church. We have held meetings before with the Bishops. We have discussed matters of mutual interest, to do with education and provision of health services. This is how it should be.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mrs Molobeka (Kawambwa): Mr Speaker, having attended several meetings where we have discussed  the activities and the role of the International Criminal Court (ICC), I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President whether the Zambian Government supports the work of the ICC.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker that is a sophisticated question.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, Zambia is a member and signatory to the Rome Statute on the International Criminal Court. The ICC was established to deal with crimes against humanity, war crimes, genocide and other serious crimes. Therefore, we support the work of the ICC. Of course, we have dealt with these issues in the African Union. There are various other principles related to international justice which we have been considering.

Mr Speaker, the jurisdiction of the ICC is invoked when there is genocide or crimes against humanity. This system is there to promote human rights. On the African Continent and in meetings which we have attended, of the African Union, there is a feeling among member States that certain aspects of the Rome Statute of the ICC need to be reviewed. To this effect, we held a review meeting in Uganda in May, 2009 so that we could look at the various aspects. Member States are free to file complaints before the ICC.  However, there is concern on some of the cases which are referred to the ICC through the United Nations Security Council and this where member States have some concerns.

Mr Speaker, for us in Zambia, we must strive to maintain peace and tranquility so that the jurisdiction of the ICC is not invoked on Zambian affairs. This is because, of late, we have seen the ICC intervening in Kenya because of political violence. In Zambia, we would like to remain peaceful so that none of our citizens are handed over to the ICC.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Further, there are certain activities, especially by political parties and newspapers, which can lead to chaos and the ICC becoming interested.  Let us maintain peace and security. This is why we are members of the ICC.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, recently, we have seen road blocks being mounted by foreign police on some of our major roads and some vehicles being confisticated from Zambians. Who are these people and when last did Zambia Police mount similar road blocks in their countries?

Is His Honour the Vice-President and the Government in general aware that some of these cars that are being sold to Zambians are actually sold in good faith but only later do the vendors report them stolen after they have been cleared here in Zambia in order for them to get some double money from insurance in their countries? I really want His Honour the Vice-President to help us appreciate, as Zambians, what our Government is doing to ensure that our people are protected and that we carry out similar activities in other countries.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour, the Vice-President why recently we have seen roadblocks being mounted by foreign police along some of our major roads. We have also seen the confiscation of vehicles from Zambians. I would like to know who these people are and where they have come from. I also would like to find out when the Zambia Police Service last mounted similar roadblocks and if the Vice-President and Government in general are aware that some of these cars that are sold to Zambians are actually sold in good faith, but later on, the seller goes to report them as stolen vehicles after they have been cleared here in Zambia in order for them to get double money from the insurance firms in their own country? I would like His Honour the Vice-President to help us, as Zambians, to appreciate what the Government is doing to ensure that our people are protected and that similar activities also take place in other countries.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I remember that this has been a long-standing complaint. I remember when I was President of the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), I dealt with this issue some time back. These are joint operations which are arranged between security agencies in the SADC Region. Sometimes, our vehicles which are stolen from here find their way in other countries. Therefore, we must co-operate with security agencies in other countries.

Mr Speaker, the issue of our citizens losing money is not the only problem because there is a complex security problem which is involved in this matter. Of course, if our citizens are losing money because of people making fake insurance claims or reporting that vehicles have been stolen in their countries when they have actually sold them, it is not good. I know that this is a problem in South Africa and other neighbouring countries. The person can sell a vehicle to a Zambian and when it crosses the border, they go and report to their security agencies that the vehicle has been stolen. When they make that report, they claim insurance in their own country. We know that this is one of the problems and therefore, it is important that we take it up and discuss with our colleagues in the region so that this particular joint operation is not abused for personal gain. Therefore, we are aware of that kind of problem and thank you for bringing it my attention. It is noted.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chella (Wusakile): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour, the Vice-President how far the Government has gone in exploring the oil and other minerals like gas in our country.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we have already advertised twenty-three blocks in the North-Western, Western and Eastern provinces. So far, we have received some bids. This is the first phase of the programme. We hope that once exploration works start, in accordance with new Petroleum Act which this particular august House enacted recently, we can get some wealth. We hope that we can discover oil in our country. Therefore, we are now moving in this particular exercise so that we can identify areas where there is petroleum.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, most of the Southern Province has had about two days of good rains this year. Although I am sufficiently disposed with the knowledge that the Sichifulo matter has received very good attention, but is it possible that the action to deal with that matter can be expedited so that those 8,500 people may join the rest of the country in the agriculture programme this year?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, it is our intention to ensure that we resettle our people, but in doing so, it is important that all stakeholders in involved in this problem, like their royal highness and residents, co-operate with the Government so that  we can expedite this particular process. The rains have come therefore, it is our intention to expedite this process. We hope that hon. Members of Parliament and their royal highnesses will co-operate so that we can complete this particular exercise.

 I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr R. C. Banda (Milanzi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour, the Vice-President what the Government position is on the much-talked about media regulation in the country.

 The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, to some extent, the media in Zambia is already regulated by statute in the sense that in our statutes, we already have various laws which relate to media regulation. For example, laws relating to criminal liable and sedition, if you publish material which is intended to incite violation or to excite disaffection against the Government and publications which insult the President, are offences. This is deformation of the President and it is in our statutes books.

Mr Speaker, also in our statutes books, there is a section in the Penal Code under which the President in his absolute discretion can ban a newspaper from being published in Zambia. Therefore, we already have some of these of these statutes including the law deformation. All these are statutory.

Mr Speaker, in addition to that and because this kind of regulation affects all sectors for the Zambian society and not only the media, there is a need for further statutory regulation of the media.  The question is what aspects need to be regulated? If journalism is a profession, you need to provide regulation like training, issues of accreditation and prescribing sanctions against erring journalists. These should be provided under a statute. That kind of statutory regulation is also self-regulation in a way. The law provides a framework within which the journalism profession should operate. Therefore, this is the type of statutory regulation we are talking about.

Mr Speaker, the bill of regulating the media is ready and we have already drafted it, but we are waiting for journalists, if they have a better bill, to present it through a Private Member’s Motion. Again, that is self-regulation.

Mr Speaker, for example, there are many professions which have been coming to the Government to suggest what type of law they would like to regulate their profession. I know of the marketers …

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Not that kind of marketers you are talking about, but marketers. There is a statute on that. Professions like, personnel officers, medical practitioners, lawyers and engineers.

   For example, the way the Law Association of Zambia Act came about, it is the lawyers themselves who started the Law Society Act. Accountants also came to the Government seeking help and we drafted the type of bill which they wanted. Therefore, this is what we are also saying about the journalists. They can draft their own bill. Of course, what we want to see are sanctions, but not what is obtaining at the moment. They have in place what is called the Media Council of Zambia (MECOZ). MECOZ hears complaints from its members and just ends at making public pronouncements which are of no value. The erring journalists continue practicing.

Mr Speaker, what I can say is that a lot of genuine journalists have come to us to express their wish that they be regulated. Now, it is those quacks …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … who are not properly trained …

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … who are resisting statutory self-regulations. This is the problem which is there. However, well-meaning journalists have been advocating and, in fact, making representations requesting that they be regulated.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President and Learned Minister of Justice how Members can see the President …

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Sir.

Mrs J. M. Phiri: … because last week during His Honour the Vice-President’s Question Time session, there was a question that was raised on the procedure Members of Parliament should follow in order to see the President on appointment. I am one of those hon. Members of Parliament who has been to State House and made an appointment to see the President when I came back from Solwezi because I have something very important to discuss with him. However, it has taken over three months since I made the appointment. I would like to find out what I should do next since I am entitled to see the Republican President.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker explained very well on the procedure which should be followed in order to see the President. Of course, our President is available to attend to Members of Parliament as he promised when he swore in Mr Speaker.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, is the Vice-President aware that some political parties are busy promoting tribalism and that this is a threat to this country? If he is aware, what is the Government doing to put corrective measures in place for both Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) and churches to halt this malpractice?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, under our laws and, indeed, the Constitution, tribalism, depending on the extent, can be a criminal offence.

Ms Lundwe: Yes!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Promoting tribal conflicts that can lead to chaos in the country is not allowed. Therefore, political parties should be national in character and promote “One Zambia One Nation”. I wish to inform those political parties that are promoting tribalism that it is not Zambian to do that. However, in the Ruling Party, MMD, we do not believe in tribalism. Our party has a national character; it is not a regional party. Therefore, let us strive to promote “One Zambia One Nation”.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Magande (Chilanga): Mr Speaker, in reaction to the financial crisis, the Zambian Government, in March, arranged for an Indaba to discuss the problems. One of the resolutions from the 500 Indaba delegates was to form a Task Force on the mining industry to come up with information to help the stakeholders, both the Government and the others, to make informed decisions. May I know why this has taken so long to an extent that this morning we were told that some of the information to make decisions on the problems on the Copperbelt cannot be made? What is the problem in forming this Task Force?

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear! Long live Magande!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we are taking the Indaba resolutions and suggestions very seriously and the same matter is currently before Cabinet. All the resolutions will be looked into and the people of Zambia will be informed.

Sir, I wish to take advantage of this question and say that, some of the resolutions which cannot be implemented immediately will be included in the Sixth National Development Plan which we are currently developing. Therefore, we will pay attention to all the resolutions and proceed with their implementation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, when will the Mansa/Luwingu Road be tarred?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, in the meantime, we are working on the Kasama/Luwingu Road, but funds permitting, we will attend to such important roads such as that one in due course.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Speaker, a well trained and experienced Public Service with a good track record in the Civil Service is essential to democracy. Recently, the appointment of permanent secretaries particularly, for Luapula, Lusaka and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services does not meet that criterion. Could the Vice-President assure us that appointments in the Civil Service are for the civil servants and not known political party cadres?

Could you also comment on how a civil servant can apply to be a candidate of a political party for a by-election as what is happening in Solwezi now? This is because whatever is happening there dilutes the Public Service further?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, all I can say is that appointments in the Public Service are open to all Zambians who are qualified regardless of their political affiliation. That is the criterion which we follow. I do not agree with the insinuations or innuendos which you are making. The appointments have been made in accordance with that criterion. Those permanent secretaries are qualified.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Speaker, in view of the growing economic activities in the North-Western Province in mining and now exploration of oil, is the Government thinking about upgrading the Solwezi Airport to international standards?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is a very important question and I hope the people of Solwezi are listening.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Our intention is to upgrade the Solwezi Airport to international standards.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The Solwezi Airport will be upgraded to international standards and this has already been budgeted for. It will be receiving big planes up to Boeing 767.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In fact, our intention is to make it a regional airport to serve the Southern African Development Community (SADC) region.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: That is what we intend to do about Solwezi because we care about the people of Solwezi.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We shall do everything possible to assist them in their aspirations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, on Monday, I was invited by the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to his office where he gave us a briefing. I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President what the people of Kitwe have done to deny them roads because I was told categorically that there would no road works done in Kitwe and on the Copperbelt.

Interruptions

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The intention of this Government is to develop all parts of this country equitably and we have been doing that. Even in areas where we have Opposition hon. Members of Parliament, they have congratulated this Government on providing development countrywide.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Development is taking place in Kasama, Kitwe, Solwezi, Namwala and other parts of the Southern Province. We are moving into the Southern Province and providing development equitably and this is so throughout the country. We are a national Government with a national character and we shall ensure that we stick to that.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chazangwe (Choma Central): Mr Speaker, now that the rainy season has started, can His Honour the Vice-President inform the commercial farmers who are almost panicking because they do not know what the future holds in terms of fuel.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, fuel supplies have improved tremendously although, of course, we have some challenges in terms of petrol. However, diesel is there and, in fact, the Indeni Oil Refinery has even started operations and so the situation should normalise.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

____________{mospagebreak}

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWERS

Mr L. J. Mulenga indicating to speak.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Let me remind the House that when the presiding officer is on the Floor or talking as I am doing at the moment, there shall be total silence in the House.

STATUS OF KARIBA DAM BRIDGE IN SIAVONGA

187. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) what the current condition and status of the Kariba Dam Bridge in Siavonga was;

(b) what the life span of the above bridge was; and

(c) whether there were any plans of constructing a new bridge at the same location.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the crossing at Kariba on the Zambezi is on the dam wall. The Ministry of Works and Supply is aware that the condition of the road carriageway is good. The integrity of the dam wall is regularly assessed by the Zambezi River Authority.

Mr Speaker, it is not possible to give a definite life span of the Kariba Dam as the life span of any dam is dependant on how well it is looked after. The Ministry of Works and Supply has no intentions of constructing a bridge alongside the Kariba Dam.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, for the past eight years, authorities at that bridge have not been allowing vehicles over 10 tonnes. They say this is due to the bridge which is not in a good condition. I would like to know if the hon. Minister has any other reasons apart from the reason of the bridge not being in good shape?

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Speaker, the use of the dam wall as a road has restrictions because it is not intended to be a bridge, it is just a dam wall and so it must be protected because if it collapses, the consequences are grave. So those with goods to transport which are above 10 tonnes should surely go through Chirundu because it is the right route.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what specific engineering inspections are conducted to ascertain stability on that bridge.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, it is a dam wall and it is not under my ministry. The appropriate ministry should be able to give a proper with regard to what inspections they continually make.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, in line with part (b) of the question, I would like to know how often the major bridges, which include Mukuku, are inspected.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, we have people mandated to go round inspecting these bridges as and when it is possible. We have no wish to see them collapse and the appropriate authorities are doing just that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, two other dams were constructed at the same time as the Kariba Dam and the dam walls for those dams have since given way. What steps is the Government going to take to ensure that this does not happen in relation to the Kariba Dam whose wall is under constant pressure from the water.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, my ministry is responsible for bridges and so the appropriate ministry should be able to guide us on that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Government what studies have been conducted to find out the extent of flooding in case of a disaster at Kariba happening and the wall collapsing and also what plans for drills have been made to alert people in areas which are likely to be affected as to what they are to do in the event of such a calamity. I also would like to know what early warning systems have been put in place.
Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, of course, it would be of disastrous consequence and his guess is as good as mine although I do not have any information of what would happen and whether there has been any drills along the river to alert the people who live in that area in case of a disaster. So I am not competent to answer that question.

I thank you, Sir.

REHABILITATION OF ROAD NO. RD39 (T2-D56) IN SHIWANG’ANDU

188. Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing when the rehabilitation of Road No. RD39 (T2 – D56), popularly known as Chachacha Road in Shiwang’andu Parliamentary Constituency will start.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this House that there is no budget provision in this year’s Budget for the rehabilitation of the said road.

Mr Speaker, all local authorities have been appointed as road authorities by the ministry and this means that all road rehabilitation is the responsibility of the local authority where these roads are. Councils must prepare annual work plans where projects such as road rehabilitation are prioritised which should then be sent to the Road Development Agency (RDA) for possible funding.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out what financial assistance has been rendered to the local authorities to ensure that the local  authorities are able to execute the responsibility that they have been given now.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, as alluded to in the response, the road authorities are encouraged to prioritise these roads and forward the budget request to RDA so that when funds are made available, these are worked on.

I thank you, Sir.

REHABILITATION OF ROADS IN KANYAMA

189. Colonel Chanda asked the Minister of Works and Supply:

(a) when the following roads in Kanyama Parliamentary Constituency were last rehabilitated:

(i) D162 – Blue Boar – Linda Compound Road;
(ii) Makeni Road; and 
(iii) Los Angeles up to Simson Winnie Hotel in Makeni; and 
(iv) What the cost of rehabilitating the roads above is.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the ministry through, the RDA, has made the following progress:

(i) the Blue Boar – Linda Compound (D162) Road was last rehabilitated in 1998;

(ii) the Makeni D164 road was once last rehabilitated in 2006; and

(iii) the Los-Angels – Simson Winnie Hotel Road was last rehabilitated in 1998.

The estimated cost for carrying out the rehabilitation of Blue-Boar-Linda Compound Road, Makeni Road and Los Angeles – Simson Winnie Hotel Road is estimated at K22 billion.

I thank you, Sir.

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, I would like to tell the hon. Minister that the figure that he gave is …

Mr Speaker: Order!

You do not tell. What is your question?

Colonel Chanda: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that the figures, times and dates that he is referring to relate to when the communities mobilised themselves to renovate this road without the help of the Government. Is the hon. Minister aware that this road was not rehabilitated by the Government?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, in fact, I am grateful to hear that the community took that initiative, but of course, the appropriate institution must have provided some assistance whether technical or supervisory. In fact, I would like to encourage the hon. Member, who is also a councillor for Lusaka to pay attention to those roads and find time to come to our offices so that we can sit down and discuss how we can work on the roads. If he just waits for us to go to him, we have so many roads in the country to attend to, but I would like to encourage him to come to our offices. We are ready to work with him.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mushili (Ndola): Mr Speaker, the cost of working on the roads are extremely high in this country. What plans does the ministry have to cut down the cost of maintaining roads?

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Speaker, the Government has bought equipment from China which is being spread around the country and we are doing fantastic work with that equipment. The reason is simple, we know that when we tender in the open market the costs are very prohibitive and that is the reason we have our own equipment and we are prepared to give you technical advice and how we can proceed to repair our roads. So as far as we are concerned, we have equipment around the country which is helping to cut the cost of working on the roads.

I thank you, Sir.

CONSTRUCTION OF SCHOOLS IN VILLAGES IN MFUWE

190. Mr Malama asked the Minster of Education when the Government would construct schools in the following villages in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Kaluba in Chief Mukungule;

(ii) Chilima in Chief Nabwalya; and

(iii) Mwenda in Chief Mpumba.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, there are no immediate plans to construct schools in the following villages in Mfuwe Parliamentary Constituency;

(i) Kaluba in Chief Mukungule;

(ii) Chilima in Chief Nabwalya; and

(iii)  Mwenda in Chief Mpumba.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out when the Government will uplift the standards of education in rural areas.

Mr Speaker: Hon. Minister of Education that is irrelevant, but you may provide the answer if you have it.

Laughter

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, just as a reminder to the hon. Member, we are embarking on a massive construction of classrooms and schools in rural areas. If the hon. Member remembers, last year, we constructed more than 1,500 classrooms and this year, we are constructing 2,500 classrooms and we can just assure him that we are concerned too to improve the standard of education in rural areas.

_______

MOTION

COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY REPORT

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the first Report of the Committee on Education, Science and Technology for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly which was laid on the Table of the House on 11th November, 2009.

Mr Speaker: Is the motion seconded?

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the motion.

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, your committee considered the following issues:

(i) Science and technology in basic and high schools;

(ii) Linkages between training and industry;

(iii) Local tours of selected places related to the topical issues; and

(iv)  Outstanding issues from the action-taken report on your committee’s report for 2008.

Additionally, a request was made by the Zambian Institute of Planners to meet with your Committee on the issue of the location of campuses of higher education. Your Committee were informed that it was against proper town planning and land use regulations to locate institutions of learning in any place and that Zambia was the only country where town and country planning regulations were not being enforced, as it had become common practice to have institutions of higher learning located in all sorts of places, ranging from office buildings in the central business district to shopping malls and residential areas.

Your Committee further observed that there seems to be lack of well co-ordinated policy guidelines and regulations on the establishment of infrastructure for higher learning institutions such as universities.

In this regard, your Committee, in calling upon the Government to come up with a guiding policy on the location of institutions of higher learning, recommend that:

(i) the Government expeditiously comes up with comprehensive policy guidelines and regulations on the construction of infrastructure outlining certain minimum standards before universities can be allowed to operate; and

(ii) the Ministry of Education liaises with other relevant ministries such as Lands and Local Government and Housing, to ensure that the standards I have mentioned are met before issuance of operating licences to those establishing universities.

On the subject of the teaching of science in basic and secondary schools, your Committee agree with the view of stakeholders that the introduction of new education structures of basic education, where grades 8 and 9 are put in the same institutions with pupils with pupils in grades 1 to 7, has added more problems to the already existing challenges that the teaching of science and technology has been facing. There is a difference between primary and basic school infrastructure in terms of laboratories, industrial arts and technical drawing rooms as well as in the pedagogical methodologies.
RRR
Whereas there has been an increase in the number of primary schools which have been converted into basic schools, and some basic schools into high schools, there has been few corresponding infrastructure developments, qualified teachers, acquisition of equipment and funding to facilitate effective teaching of science and technology in basic and high schools. The situation can only be described as tragic.

The upgrading of primary schools to basic schools means that more teachers need to go for further training in science and technology studies. However, this has not been the case due to poor funding towards professional development. Consequently, the majority of teachers teaching science at high school level are diploma holders, leaving unqualified teachers to teach in basic schools. This has been worsened by the phasing out of in-service training at the National In-service Teachers College. The increase in basic school enrolment is not commensurate with the number of existing qualified teachers.

Sir, most basic schools have little or no equipment at all. This makes teaching purely theoretical, leading to the teaching of science and technology being a mockery. Your Committee learnt that although, initially, the Ministry of Education supplied basic and newly upgraded high schools with mobile science tool kits, there has been little effort made in restocking these kits as most of the apparatus are breakables. Additional problems in this area include the high pupil-teacher ratio, outdated text books and the high pupil-text book ratio.

With regard to high schools, it was noted that these were in a slightly better position with regard to the availability of laboratories and science equipment. There are 776 permanent science laboratories in 599 high schools. However, taking into account the fact that a school needs a minimum of two laboratories each, one for physics and another for biology and chemistry, the 776 laboratories are inadequate. There is also the issue of lack of equipment and chemicals for these laboratories.

In the light of what I have stated, your Committee observed that:

(a) the introduction of the basic school concept was done hurriedly and not matched with the corresponding infrastructure such as laboratories, equipment and qualified teachers in science;

(b) the introduction of the basic schools has created problems with regard to the quality of teaching, especially in science and technical subjects;

(c) there is a critical shortage of qualified science teachers; and

(d) the science syllabus has been watered down due to the lack of teachers in certain science topics.

Consequently; your Committee recommend as follows:

(a) the Government should increase resources to basic schools to ensure that pupils access quality education by having the required facilities such as well equipped laboratories and qualified teachers;

(b) the Government should train more teachers of science as well as build more secondary schools; and

(c) the Government should take affirmative action of rewarding science teachers in the same way the rural hardship allowance is awarded to teachers in rural areas.

Your Committee also considered linkages between technical education and vocation training and industry and they observe that:

(a) there is no collaboration among the ministries of education , science and technology ,commerce trade and industry, labour and social services and home affairs to ensure that there are linkages between training and industry; and

(b) training providers have lagged behind technological and industrial advancements due to lack of strong linkages.

In view of the foregoing observations, your Committee recommend that:

(a) there must be more liaison among the ministries involved in ensuring that there are strong linkages between training and industry; and

(b) training providers should synchronise their curricular with the current technological and industrial trends.

Mr Speaker, your Committee undertook tours of the following places;
   
(i) Mulungushi University;

(ii) Nkrumah College of Education;

(iii) Ndola Girls Technical School ;

(iv) Copperbelt of College Education; and

(v) National In-service Teachers College in Chalimbana.

Sir, I will speak about Nkrumah College of Education, Copperbelt College of Education and the National In-services Teachers College together because their issues are inter-related. Nkrumah College of Education has no facilities and its laboratories can best be described as mere rooms as they lack even basic science furniture such as benches, whereas Copperbelt College of Education has no science facilities with only two ill-equipped laboratories. The college also lacks decent accommodation for students. Fortunately, the National In-service Teachers College has decent science laboratories and a technical room as well as very good computer science laboratories and student accommodation.

Mr Speaker, although your Committee support the Ministry of Education in its quest to upgrade teacher training colleges for science teachers, what they find disappointing is the manner in which this is being done.

Your Committee found that Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt College of Education, which have neither facilities nor qualified staff, have been ‘converted’ into university colleges, whereas the National In-services Teachers College, which has superior facilities in science and technical subjects, has been stopped from offering courses in science. What is even worse is that all this has been done in the absence of the necessary legal framework.

Specifically, in relation to the Copperbelt College of Education, your Committee make the general observation that the conversion of a secondary school into a college and, subsequently, into a university college is ill-conceived and premature as there has been no change in infrastructure nor improvement in facilities from the time the college was a secondary school.

As the case is with the Copperbelt College of Education, there is no legal framework to back the conversion of Nkrumah College of Education into a university college. Further, your Committee are concerned that both colleges have enrolled students in the absence of qualified lecturers and facilities, thereby running the risk of producing ill-qualified graduates.

Sir, your Committee observe that the stoppage of the National In-service Teachers College from offering science education, in spite of the massive infrastructure available, is ill-conceived and contrary to the education policy of 1996. In relation to the purported policy conversion of the Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt College of Education into university colleges, your Committee are of the strong opinion that the National In-service Teachers College, which has superior facilities and qualified staff, would have been in a better position to be up-graded to a university college.

They further observe that the overall problems at the National In-services Teachers College, Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt College of Education are due to poor and haphazard planning which has not been properly thought out.

Sir, in this regard, your Committee wish to state that until the Government puts in place the necessary legal framework and corresponding facilities in terms of infrastructure and staff, this ‘conversion’ remains a fallacy. Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government to speedily put in place the necessary legal framework as well as the necessary infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered to them since the inception of your Committee’s work. They also wish to thank all the witnesses who appeared before them.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

   Whereas there has been an increase in the number of primary schools which have been converted into basic schools, and some basic schools into high schools, there has been few corresponding infrastructure developments, qualified teachers, acquisition of equipment and funding to facilitate effective teaching of science and technology in basic and high schools. The situation can only be described as tragic.

The upgrading of primary schools to basic schools means that more teachers need to go for further training in science and technology studies. However, this has not been the case due to poor funding towards professional development. Consequently, the majority of teachers teaching science at high school level are diploma holders, leaving unqualified teachers to teach in basic schools. This has been worsened by the phasing out of in-service training at the National In-service Teachers College. The increase in basic school enrolment is not commensurate with the number of existing qualified teachers.

Sir, most basic schools have little or no equipment at all. This makes teaching purely theoretical, leading to the teaching of science and technology being a mockery. Your Committee learnt that although, initially, the Ministry of Education supplied basic and newly upgraded high schools with mobile science tool kits, there has been little effort made in restocking these kits as most of the apparatus are breakables. Additional problems in this area include the high pupil-teacher ratio, outdated text books and the high pupil-text book ratio.

With regard to high schools, it was noted that these were in a slightly better position with regard to the availability of laboratories and science equipment. There are 776 permanent science laboratories in 599 high schools. However, taking into account the fact that a school needs a minimum of two laboratories each, one for physics and another for biology and chemistry, the 776 laboratories are inadequate. There is also the issue of lack of equipment and chemicals for these laboratories.

In the light of what I have stated, your Committee observed that:

(e) the introduction of the basic school concept was done hurriedly and not matched with the corresponding infrastructure such as laboratories, equipment and qualified teachers in science;

(f) the introduction of the basic schools has created problems with regard to the quality of teaching, especially in science and technical subjects;

(g) there is a critical shortage of qualified science teachers; and

(h) the science syllabus has been watered down due to the lack of teachers in certain science topics.

Consequently; your Committee recommend as follows:

(d) the Government should increase resources to basic schools to ensure that pupils access quality education by having the required facilities such as well equipped laboratories and qualified teachers;

(e) the Government should train more teachers of science as well as build more secondary schools; and

(f) the Government should take affirmative action of rewarding science teachers in the same way the rural hardship allowance is awarded to teachers in rural areas.

Your Committee also considered linkages between technical education and vocation training and industry and they observe that:

(c) there is no collaboration among the ministries of education , science and technology ,commerce trade and industry, labour and social services and home affairs to ensure that there are linkages between training and industry; and

(d) training providers have lagged behind technological and industrial advancements due to lack of strong linkages.

In view of the foregoing observations, your Committee recommend that:

(c) there must be more liaison among the ministries involved in ensuring that there are strong linkages between training and industry; and

(d) training providers should synchronise their curricular with the current technological and industrial trends.

Mr Speaker, your Committee undertook tours of the following places;
   
(vi) Mulungushi University;

(vii) Nkrumah College of Education;

(viii) Ndola Girls Technical School ;

(ix) Copperbelt of College Education; and

(x) National In-service Teachers College in Chalimbana.

Sir, I will speak about Nkrumah College of Education, Copperbelt College of Education and the National In-services Teachers College together because their issues are inter-related. Nkrumah College of Education has no facilities and its laboratories can best be described as mere rooms as they lack even basic science furniture such as benches, whereas Copperbelt College of Education has no science facilities with only two ill-equipped laboratories. The college also lacks decent accommodation for students. Fortunately, the National In-service Teachers College has decent science laboratories and a technical room as well as very good computer science laboratories and student accommodation.

Mr Speaker, although your Committee support the Ministry of Education in its quest to upgrade teacher training colleges for science teachers, what they find disappointing is the manner in which this is being done.

Your Committee found that Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt College of Education, which have neither facilities nor qualified staff, have been ‘converted’ into university colleges, whereas the National In-services Teachers College, which has superior facilities in science and technical subjects, has been stopped from offering courses in science. What is even worse is that all this has been done in the absence of the necessary legal framework.

Specifically, in relation to the Copperbelt College of Education, your Committee make the general observation that the conversion of a secondary school into a college and, subsequently, into a university college is ill-conceived and premature as there has been no change in infrastructure nor improvement in facilities from the time the college was a secondary school.

As the case is with the Copperbelt College of Education, there is no legal framework to back the conversion of Nkrumah College of Education into a university college. Further, your Committee are concerned that both colleges have enrolled students in the absence of qualified lecturers and facilities, thereby running the risk of producing ill-qualified graduates.

Sir, your Committee observe that the stoppage of the National In-service Teachers College from offering science education, in spite of the massive infrastructure available, is ill-conceived and contrary to the education policy of 1996. In relation to the purported policy conversion of the Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt College of Education into university colleges, your Committee are of the strong opinion that the National In-service Teachers College, which has superior facilities and qualified staff, would have been in a better position to be up-graded to a university college.

They further observe that the overall problems at the National In-services Teachers College, Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt College of Education are due to poor and haphazard planning which has not been properly thought out.

Sir, in this regard, your Committee wish to state that until the Government puts in place the necessary legal framework and corresponding facilities in terms of infrastructure and staff, this ‘conversion’ remains a fallacy. Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government to speedily put in place the necessary legal framework as well as the necessary infrastructure.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to you and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the support rendered to them since the inception of your Committee’s work. They also wish to thank all the witnesses who appeared before them.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

  Mr Speaker: Does the seconder of the Motion wish to speak now or later?

Mr Mukanga: Now, Sir.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to second this motion that has been ably moved by the Chairperson of your Committee. I would also like to thank the committee members for the manner in which they deliberated on issues as they looked at the issues that have been put in the committee’s report.

  Sir, allow me first to start with the action-taken-report. One important issue that came out of the action-taken-report was an outstanding issue which has been pending for a very long time. This is the review of the outdated Education Act of 1966.

  This piece of legislation is very vital to the education sector and needs to be addressed so that both the current circumstances and present challenges faced by the sector can be thoroughly addressed. Yet the Executive does not seem overly concerned with this issue. Promises have been given, but no action taken.

  Mr Speaker, you Committee was promised that a new Education Bill will be presented to the House by the year 2009. Now we are in November, 2009 and there seems to be no sign of that Bill. We need progress on this issue so that we maybe able to address the issues that are currently obtaining.

  Mr Speaker, when your committee visited the two universities that the Chairperson has been talking about, the University of Zambia (UNZA) Great East Road Campus and Mulungushi University, the issue of fees was highlighted and we therefore, urge the Government to expedite the study on the unit cost of training a graduate. UNZA has been prevented from charging economic fees, as a result, it has experienced perennial strikes and disturbances due to lack of adequate resources, while Mulungushi University has been allowed to charge high fees when it is also a public university.

  Mr Speaker, your Committee needs justification for this and urges the Government to quickly come up with the unit cost of training a graduate in each field of study so that your Committee may make the necessary recommendations to the Government on the best way forward.

  Sir, there is also need to ensure that before any new system is introduced, the government technocrats are given enough time to study, analyse and understand the new concept and ideas and how they can be adapted to our system. This is to ensure the smooth operation of the new concepts. A good example is the introduction by the Government of the basic school system without enough human resource, infrastructure and equipment, for instance, laboratories as we heard from the report.

  How then, does this Government expect quality education levels in the country? Our students need to be availed with decent infrastructure and equipment. How can you have a school that was meant to provide secondary school education being converted into a teachers’ college and later on into a university college while the infrastructure remains the same? What type of educational training do you expect from such a college where you have no corresponding change in infrastructure? How can we achieve even the Millennium Development Goal II of Universal Primary Education when the difference between the pupils starting grade 1 and those who reach the last grade of primary school is so big? The gap is very big. Even as the Government takes strides in constructing girls’ technical schools in each provinces, there is need to closely supervise and monitor the contractors to ensure that quality workmanship is achieved in order to safeguard the investment that has been done in this area.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, in supporting the Motion which is on the Floor of the House, I would like to indicate that education is the cornerstone of any developmental efforts of any nation. In Zambia, we have noted one that the education sector does not seem to support our development because of a lot of disturbances that are happening within our institutional frameworks.

  Sir, I have in mind, the Copperbelt University (CBU) and UNZA. Every year, we have disturbances at these two universities. When is the Executive sitting down to re-examine why we are having those problems? We need to understand because at the end of the day, the educational levels are being reduced to levels where people are not being taught to be objective.

  Sir, when you went to school you learnt one thing and that is why you are able to guide the House correctly.

Mr Speaker: Order! Although the hon. Member is addressing the Chair, he cannot involve the Chair in his debate.

May you continue and leave the Chair alone.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: I thank you for your guidance, Sir. The point is that, is our education making sense or is it destroying the nation? I think that is a clear point that must be understood. Are we educating to make Zambians progressive, educated and people who can contribute to the national economy? For as long as our education is offered in a piecemeal manner as is the case now, where people just want to go into education, learn grammar and then do whatever they want, then we shall get nothing out of it because the national sense that is supposed to be attached to education is somehow lost. We must be careful as a nation that we do not lose our ground because we now have students that just want to demonstrate as and when they wish.

Sir, I would like to warn the hon. Minister of Education that before I move the Motion to start moving funds from non-priority, she should do it herself. I want you to do it yourself before I do it. I am going to move …

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Kwacha will address the Chair.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Sir, I am going to demonstrate to this Executive how I am going to move funds from non-activity priorities to CBU and UNZA. I am going to move those funds, but before I do that, I want you to do it yourself. If you do not do it, we shall have difficulties because I will demonstrate it to you. Why do you all the time have problems …

Mr Speaker: Order! I want to guide the hon. Member that he seems to be prematurely unleashing his debate on the wrong Motion.

 Unless the hon. Member has new points to make, I have seen another hon. Member who would like to, perhaps, bring up new points. Does the hon. Member have new points?

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Yes, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You may continue.

Mr L. J. Mulenga: Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your guidance. I think, ultimately, science and technology should be enhanced so that we move forward as a nation. This is an issue which we must all appreciate because it is non-political and has nothing to do with the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary. We need, as a nation, to develop that sense of belonging. All Zambians must move together with the ministry’s policy statement so that we will, also, one day, manufacture a tractor.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: Order! This is your report and so you must be brief so that they act on your recommendations quickly.

You may continue.

Major Chizhyuka: Sir, I have been listening attentively to the debate on the report and one of the items mentioned is the location of centres of education. In support of this report, I want to state that a lot has been done in Namwala Constituency with respect to that aspect. The House may wish to know that Mr Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula, the former Speaker of National Assembly, Mr Robinson Mwaakwe Nabulyato and Mr Edward Shamutete who was one of the most prolific managers at the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) originated from Namwala. This places a very important task for me to appreciate education. Namwala can produce leaders in politics, industry and legislature.

Only recently, my colleagues and I fought for a girls’ technical school. This has been provided by this Government...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: ...for Namwala which is in Southern Province. This school is being constructed at Nico Turn-off. The school will be located at a junction where people from Western Province will access it through the Mumbwa/Itezhi-tezhi/Namwala Road. Being a national school, it will still be accessed by people from Livingstone...

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was just appreciating the fact that education is important. As we enjoy the nice drink called Amarula, the original formula came from the hon. Member for Pambashe, Dr Chishya who should have patented it. Companies in South Africa and the United States of America are making a lot of money out of Amarula. The original formula comes from the brains of a man within the confines of this august House, Dr Chishya.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: This is probably one of the reasons why others may not understand him. He has such calibre that it may be very difficult for a simpleton to understand...

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! The word “simpleton” is unparliamentary. The hon. Member must withdraw it.

You may continue.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, I withdraw it. I would like to appreciate what the Government is doing for the people in the area of education. More often than not, we come to Parliament thinking that because a government is a government, therefore, when they give, we should not say thank you. It surprises me. When the car manufacturing companies in the United States of America were bailed out by the Barrack Obama Government to the tune of several billion of dollars, they thanked the President in privacy, globally and the media.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: In the Tonga tradition where I generally come from and, specifically, Ila tradition, when you reach someone’s homestead and they serve you food, we say, twalumba twayo mahu, meaning we are grateful, we have gone with swollen or bulged stomachs. This means you appreciate the food that homestead has served you. We say thank you in Ila and Tonga.

Mr Speaker, only the other day, the hon. Member for Monze Central was debating in this House and said, how can you say thank you to a Government whose responsibility is to provide such infrastructure? I began to wonder. Do we change when we come to the National Assembly? Do we cease to be Tonga...

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: ...because it is normal in the Tonga tradition. This is the correct way to say thank you. I come to Parliament with my Ila culture and the Ila people would be very surprised to find me, today, supporting one view and then changing the following day. Even if I am not bound by any policy statement, it will be a minus on my side where I come from.

 The people of Namwala have eyes and ears. They can see and hear that of all the places in the Southern Province, they have received a girls’ technical school.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, we are grateful to this Government.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: We are grateful because the Government had the option to take the school to Choma, Kalomo, Petauke or Sinda, but brought it to Namwala.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Major Chizhyuka: I come from Namwala and I am just supposed to say that that is the way things are.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: What kind of a hon. Member of Parliament would I be?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Where I come from, it is embedded in our culture to say thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: You should not be ashamed to say thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: We shall continue to appreciate the good things. Can you tell me which government, ever since 1964, has been able to provide this country with 1,500 classrooms in a year?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: This year, the projection is for 2,500 which is almost twice as much as the number mentioned earlier. Some of you want to say that the Government is expected to provide such things.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Your people are listening and you think you are being wise.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: We shall bring our culture into this House and interpret what we say beyond the boundary of Namwala. Remember, the other time I said greater Namwala …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … so that we can give the people the true directions.

Hon. Government Members: Hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Other people think that when they come into Government, everything will come like manner from heaven in ninety days.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Speaker, development does not happen that way. You have seen…

Hon. Opposition Member: What do you know?

Major Chizhyuka: … that Obama who had 73 per cent approval rating at the time he went into office is now at 52 per cent after coming face to face with reality.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: The President of South Africa, the Zulu Boy …

Hon. Members: Zuma!

Major Chizhyuka: Everybody thought that the poorest of the poor …

Mr Speaker: Order! You may not call a Head of State as the “Zulu Boy.”

Laughter

Mr Speaker: You must address the Head of State with the kind of respect you are being referred to in this House.

Major Chizhyuka: I thank you, Sir. However, it is a fond name of address just like we call Mr Mandela as Madiba. It is a fond address for those that love him. I withdraw it since you have ruled.

Mr Speaker, only recently, the poorest of the poor people in the shanty compounds could not believe that development had not happened as a result of the ascendance of Zuma to power.

Mr Speaker, this is why I say that when you see the Government providing 1,500 classrooms in one year and 2,500 the subsequent year, with Namwala having a girls’ technical school, then that Government deserves praise.

Mr Speaker, we have another basic school which I requested through the ministry. It is clear that development is coming and I appreciate that. It is this appreciation that I want to register in terms of the location of industry and in terms of the performance of the education sector as promulgated by the hon. Minister of Education. It is a job well done. We can only ask the Government to continue to do so.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Siliya: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank your Committee on Education, Science and Technology for the work done. I wish to thank those who have contributed their sentiments on this report and briefly respond to some of the issues that were raised in the presentation of the report by the Chairperson.

However, before that, I think it is important for everybody to appreciate the backlog in the provision of education in this country, considering that, in the 1980s, very little was done to invest in education.

As already indicated by some debaters, we have tried to accelerate the provision, particularly of infrastructure, so that we can address access issues. This is why we have been building a minimum of 1,000 classrooms every year.  This year, 2,500 classrooms are expected to be built. Additionally, we have recruited over 23,000 teachers in the last four years. We have been spending K30 billion on desks every year in the last few years and also committing huge budgetary resources to ensure that we continue with the policy of free education by procuring educational materials.

We, however, recognise that we have to work with the private sector. Under the public-private policy, we intend to forge partnerships with the private sector for further investment in the education sector so that we can continue to bridge the gap.

Mr Speaker, on the basic schools that were alluded to in the report and by various debaters, we admit that we have had some teething problems, especially in terms of continuing to provide access and teachers. However, we think that we have faced these challenges head on by what I have already said in terms of infrastructure provision and teachers.

At upper basic school, which is grade 8 and 9, we continue to encourage the teaching of science by providing and ensuring that facilities such as mobile laboratories, where there are no permanent laboratories structures, are made available together with the materials required.

 Beginning in January 2010, we will have a fast track programme at the University of Zambia for over 6,000 teachers with a preference for those who will be teaching mathematics and science to respond to the technical schools that we are building in the whole country.

 We want to transform some colleges and also put up some new colleges such as Mulakupikwa in the Northern Province, specifically for the training of teachers in science and technology.

Mr Speaker, allow me to, also, dwell a little bit more on the issue of in-service training. There have been suggestions that the National In-Service Training College (NISTCOL), the in-service training college at Chalimbana, should be transformed into a university. Our vision is to continue to offer in-service training at NISTCOL. I believe that this was the intended purpose from 1970.

Mr Speaker, we have, in the ministry, over 77,000 teachers. We have to ensure that these teachers have the skills, especially at headmaster, school manager, provincial level, DEBS and other senior management levels. We need to have the confidence that the managers have the management skills to deliver education effectively in our nation. With a labour force of 77,000, it is imperative that we have a critical mass of managers and this is why we want to transform NISTCOL to its original purpose of being an in-service training centre for our teachers and those who are in management in the Ministry of Education.

 I know that people want us to continue with some of the long-term programmes we are holding at the institution currently. However, in the long term, they will appreciate that for us to be efficient in the ministry, we have to have a critical cadre of managers at provincial, district and school levels because that is the only way we will move education forward.

It is not true that there is no legal provision regarding the transformation of the Nkrumah Teachers’ Training College and Copperbelt Secondary Teachers’ College (COSETCO) into university colleges because we are currently using the University of Zambia Act of 1996. Again, we have some teething problems there, but we are committing funds to ensure that we provide the required infrastructure for these institutions to operate effectively.

Sir, as a ministry, we are currently formulating a new road map and the required regulation for us to move the education sector forward. Yes, the Education Bill has taken quite a while to come to Parliament, but we felt that instead of hurrying in bringing the Bill to Parliament, it was better for us to make further consultations, as we have been following in the media, so that we have the necessary and appropriate legislation that will enhance the development of the education sector in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, with those few remarks, I wish to thank all hon. Members who contributed to this Motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the House for accepting your Committees’ report.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

_______

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 46 – (Ministry of Health – K1,352,443,046,547).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Health (Mr Simbao): Mr Chairperson, I beg your indulgence and request that this vote be deferred to next week to allow us reconcile some discrepancies that have been noticed in the figures.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: In view of that request for deferment by the hon. Minister of Health, which deferment has been agreed to, the House will proceed to consider Vote 64 – Ministry of Works and Supply’s policy debate.

Question put and agreed to. Leave granted.

Vote 46, by leave, accordingly deferred.

VOTE 64 – (Ministry of Works and Supply – K139,986,370,175).

The Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to make a policy statement for my ministry.

 The Ministry of Works and Supply is mandated to facilitate infrastructure development in Zambia, in terms of buildings and roads. It also provides printing, equipment maintenance and hospitality services. The ministry comprises five departments and five units namely; Human Resource and Administration Department, Government Transport Control Unit, Buildings Department, Government Printing Department, Office Equipment and Maintenance Services Department and Planning and Monitoring Department.

In addition, the ministry has the following statutory bodies or institutions: Hostels Board of Management, Road Development Agency (RDA), National Council for Construction (NCC) and Engineering Services Company ESCO Limited.

Mr Chairperson, let me thank my management team for the hard work and co-operation that they provide to my office.

Sir, the ministry’s national vision is “Developed and well maintained quality socio-economic infrastructure for sustainable national development by 2030”.

The mission statement of the ministry is “To effectively facilitate quality construction and maintenance of public infrastructure, provide quality accommodation and printing services and to procure and manage Government property in order to enhance socio-economic development”.

The goal is “To enhance the delivery of public infrastructure and achieve increased adherence to set standards and regulations on construction, procurement and management of Government property in order to contribute to national development”.

Mr Chairperson, the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP) has placed emphasis on Economic Infrastructure and Human Resources Development through creating an enabling environment with a strong and sustainable economic infrastructure, especially roads, bridges, dams and various means of communication.

My ministry is working with other ministries such as Mines, Energy and Water Development, Tourism, Communications and Transport and Agriculture in order to ensure that an enabling environment is provided by creating linkages with the economic growth sectors.

Sir, the construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of roads and construction of hotels in national parks will help increase access which shall, in turn, enhance revenue collection. Of particular importance is the development of road infrastructure in the Kasaba Bay and Livingstone Tourism Development projects.

The anticipated mining industry expansion in most parts of the country calls for the improvement of the road and railway networks. The railway network is key to reducing costs as it is the cheapest mode of transport, especially for bulky goods and it would help reduce pressure on the roads.

Mr Chairperson, in the energy sector, there are a number of projects that are earmarked such as Kafue Gorge Lower, Kabompo, Kalungwishi, and Batoka Gorge Hydro Power Development, just to mention a few. Therefore, the development of the roads in these areas will definitely enhance power generation, especially with the anticipated increase in the energy deficit due to the projected further expansion in the mining industry.

Sir, it is also envisaged that the enactment of the Public-Private Partnership (PPP) Act will greatly enhance the linkages between my ministry and the economic growth sectors. The private sector is expected to partner with the Government in the provision and development of the much-needed infrastructure for sustainable economic development of the country.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has been instrumental in trying to create transport linkages with other regional countries for easy accessibility and exportation of goods to the global market.

Sir, my ministry has also been involved in the construction of One Stop Border Post (OSBP) facilities at Chirundu and Katima Mulilo. The OSBP concept is very important as it is an area of trade facilitation that is considered to be a priority for harmonisation in the Southern African Community Development (SADC), Common Market for Eastern and Southern Africa (COMESA) and East Africa Community (EAC) and is aimed at reducing import and export procedures at entry and exit points thereby reducing the cost of doing business.

Mr Speaker, currently, the Government, through my ministry, is in the process of constructing border facilities at Nakonde. There are further plans to put up OSBPs at Kazungula and Mwami Border posts. The construction of border facilities at Kasumbalesa has been procured through the recently enacted PPP Act.

Sir, let me take this opportunity to inform the House that some progress has been made to complete the Kazungula Bridge Feasibility Study despite some delays by the consultant. We are confident that actual construction of the bridge between Zambia and Botswana across the Zambezi River shall commence next year, 2010.

Mr Chairperson, the Government, through the ministry, procured earth-moving equipment from China in order to improve the feeder roads network thereby improving business transactions.

Sir, the procurement of the equipment has greatly enhanced Government’s capacity in the timely construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of feeder roads in rural and urban areas. We hope to continue with more work using the same equipment.

My ministry is in the process of reviewing the construction industry policy which was developed in 1995. The review is aimed at taking into account the new policy developments that have taken place in the construction industry with the view to keeping up with the latest world construction developments.

My ministry is very much committed to providing and maintaining sports infrastructure, office and residential accommodation in collaboration with other stakeholders. We are also encouraging the private sector, through the Public Private Partnership (PPP) method, to actively take part.

Mr Chairperson, in this regard, my ministry will continue the construction of the banquet and conference facilities at the New Government Complex in order to facilitate the operations of the Government and other stakeholders.

In order to facilitate decision making and information provision to end-users, my ministry is committed to the maintenance of Information Management System on the operations of the infrastructure sector. Sir, to this effect, my ministry launched its Ministerial Website in April, 2009.

Sir, my ministry will continue to co-ordinate planning, monitoring and evaluation of capital projects in order to ensure their effective implementation and value for money for our country.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the Government Printing Department, is responsible for printing of Government classified information, reports and other statutory documents as well as providing printing services to the general public on request.

Mr Chairperson, bearing in mind that the country will hold the Presidential, Parliamentary and Local Government elections in 2011, it is important that the department’s capacity in printing colour portraits for ballot papers and security is enhanced as required by the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) so that the printing of ballot papers is done within Zambia. My ministry is, therefore, actively preparing for the envisaged activities.

Mr Chairperson, in order to respond to the social and economic needs of the country, my ministry will continue to construct, rehabilitate, upgrade and maintain roads and build infrastructure at border crossing points and in new districts. The construction industry needs to be transformed to encourage the development and growth of small and emerging enterprises to meet new capacity requirements through the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC).

Mr Chairperson, the use of local raw materials should be encouraged through the intensification of research and development by providing requisite resources to achieve this very important element.

Sir, my ministry has recognised the need to facilitate provision of infrastructure through Public-Private Partnerships (PPP). PPP has been identified as a viable means of infrastructure development that can effectively address the constraints of finance and management faced by the public sector.

Further, PPP will enable the public sector to participate in projects and will also lead to the streamlining in my ministry’s functions to that there is facilitation and monitoring, and also ensuring efficiency and accountability.

It is clear that construction can provide the required employment for the range of skills, hence, creating wealth and reducing poverty. Human resource considerations are therefore, of paramount concern. The construction policy addresses gender, disability concerns, design programmes of training and certification on the variety of skills. This policy seeks to encourage the entrance of new participants, progressive construction, project execution, capacity of existing local contractors, consultancy firms and encourage research and development (R and D).

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will continue to put road construction, rehabilitation and maintenance on high agenda in 2010, in line with the commitments made in the Road Sector Investment Programme (RSIP). This commitment to improve the condition of our road network, both in rural and urban areas is meant to improve the business transaction in all sectors of the economy. The main road projects that the Government has planned to work on are to enhance the socio-economic well-being of the people of Zambia. The ten-year Road Sector Investment Programme (ROADSIP 11) has set a common basket in the Road Fund to pool resources.

Sir, I would like to thank all the co-operating partners who have continued to assist in my ministry through financing projects and technical assistance in the construction sector.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, I wholly support the vote. In doing so, I have only one or two items to discuss. I overheard the hon. Minister saying that the mandate is to facilitate infrastructure development. That is the mandate for the Ministry of Works and Supply. I think, in reality, it is not like that. I say so because the roles of the ministry, in terms of infrastructure development, have been taken over by other ministries. As a result of that, the situation is not very conducive and I will go into detail later on.

Sir, there was an earlier suggestion that the technical staff in the ministries that deal with infrastructure development should be transferred to the Ministry of Works and Supply for obvious reasons and then seconded back to their ministries. That was a brilliant idea and it was suggested sometime back, about two to three years ago, but it has not yet been implemented. What is going on in the country, at the moment, in terms of quality control, is very sad. At the moment, I know that construction is creative and we make a lot of money the wrong way in the shortest time at the expense of the quality of the buildings. I am urging the Government to implement this idea. You should send all those technical people in other ministries to the Ministry of Works and Supply so that these people can be in control of infrastructure development as we have already been told that the Ministry of Works and Supply’s mandate is infrastructure development.

Mr Chairperson, I am saying this because I have noticed that there is some development construction going on in my constituency and it is very sad. I am not happy with what is happening. It seems it is free for all. Other ministries that are building are carrying out construction works, but the quality of construction leaves much to be desired. Supervision is lacking. The materials that are being used, during my time, would not be allowed. For example, the mix of the concrete is terrible. They use raw mix. These are fundamental point and are very important. If you do not do these things, then you will find that the lifespan of the building is shortened. These basics like the mix, the curing and the materials are not observed. We are investing quite a lot in schools, clinics and hospitals, but there is no proper control.

  I think that the other ministries that are dealing with infrastructure development should surrender their technical staff to the Ministry of Works and Supply then later, they can be seconded back for obvious reasons. I can give an example of the current situation whereby the functions of the Ministry of Works and Supply have been taken over by other ministries.

Mr Chairperson, I was informed that out of the forty-two blacklisted contractors, the Ministry of Works and Supply was only responsible for three. The other sector ministries were responsible for the rest. It is a serious anomally to have thirty-nine contractors being controlled, given work and tenders by other ministries, and not by the one mandated to do so.

Mr Speaker, the other issue connected to this is corruption. The construction going on in my constituency has given me an insight quite different from the time I was still working.  I can smell a rat. There is a lot that we have to do in order to correct this. It is no wonder you find that junior officers in the Civil Service are so rich that they can afford to build mansions and drive cars. I can now see the source. It is sad that corruption has grown roots. It was once at the top, but now it is among junior officers. It will take us time to get rid of corruption because it has spread all over. I will not go into details, but I can smell something in contracts being awarded to contractors by ministries that are not mandated to do this.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of the Rural Roads Unit (RRU), I would like to ask the Government to give more funding. Last year, K2billion was allocated per province. This year, the amount has increased to K5billion, but still, this is not enough. The only answer is to give this unit more money. Once this is done, I think that we can perform wonders in our constituencies. Furthermore, the management co-ordination under this unit is very important.

Finally, I heard the hon. Minister say that there will be a review of the policy related to construction. Nothing has happened since 1995. I was part and parcel of that group in 1995. I was in-charge of the group that came up with this policy and I get excited when I hear that there will be a review. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to do this quickly.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to pick up from the previous debater and say that indeed in supporting this vote, there are a number of issues that the Government needs to look at. I think that the point that the previous debater raised is an issue that the Government needs to seriously look into.

Currently, we have several Government departments that are engaged in construction. I will give an example of the Ministry of Home Affairs. The ministry is currently building houses for police officers, and yet as a Government, we have the National Housing Authority (NHA), which is a department mandated to build houses.

Mr Chairperson, I am aware that one of the reasons is that it is felt that the NHA are not doing a good job and the houses they are constructing are not sufficient enough to accommodate the other sector ministries that have a demand for housing for their staff, in this case, the nurses, doctors and teachers. You will note, therefore, that in their budgets, at the moment, each sector is talking about construction of houses.

Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether the answer lies in transferring all these experts to the Ministry of Works and Supply or whether the Government should allow each sector ministry to have a buildings department as long as they have experts. These are issues that really need deep study, analysis and understanding before a decision is made. Earlier, we had the Buildings Departments under the Ministry of Works and Supply that used to do most of this work. At that time, they had enough resources and capacity.

At the moment, however, you find that a certain sector ministry in a particular area may even have more capacity and resources than the Ministry of Works and Supply. In this case, the capacity I am referring to has to do with money and not human resource. You will find that in the budget, more money has been allocated to a sector ministry than the Ministry of Works and Supply. I think that we should stop this haphazard practice of changing policies in the Government, especially in structures of the Government.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Works and Supply is generally responsible for all the roads in the country. It is responsible for policy, regulation, supervision and appointment of agents to do the work. In this regard, they have appointed local authorities, for instance, to be in-charge of the roads within their districts. This is not something new because even before the ceremony of appointing agents took place, the Local Government Act had already mandated the local authorities to be agents of roads within their districts. This is what the current law is and nothing has changed. We have not amended the Local Government Act.

Remember that all the functions discharged by the local authorities in the country are functions delegated by sector ministries. For instance, the Ministry of Education has delegated the establishment of pre and nursery schools to the councils. The Ministry of Lands has delegated the allocation of land to councils. The Ministry of Health, in the past, had delegated clinics at the community level to councils. In the same vein, this is how the Ministry of Works and Supply, although responsible for roads management and construction, has delegated the issue of small roads within Kabwata and other areas to the local authority.

Mr Chairperson, unfortunately what has happened is that there is total confusion. We do not know who is doing what. For example, you hear somebody asking a question about why a road is not being graded in Nyumba Yanga and that query is being referred to the Ministry of Works and Supply through RDA. The hon. Minister should tell me how the young lady Ms Saili from RDA can be answering queries concerning a road in Shang’ombo or in some village in Mansa. It cannot work. That is why we keep saying that you should decentralise because that is the answer. The functions should be decentralised to local authorities and give them matching resources and capacity which means resources and staff as well and ensure that you maintain standards. Therefore, the ministry of works and Supply must regulate councils through the relevant ministry in this case to ensure that they are a doing their job.

 At the moment, you cannot even know what is happening. On the black board, you will see clients as the Ministry of Local Government and Housing and implementer, the Ministry of Works and Supply through the Lusaka City Council. There is total confusion. Like I have always said, there is a bamba zonke arrangement going on. Where it is convenient, you would find that RDA are present and where it is not convenient, they are not present.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is that what bamba zonke means?

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I do not know how to explain, but I think it means free for all. It is like when you see that there is a big benefit, you rush there and where there is no good benefit, you do not go there. Therefore, when it fits you, it is your functions and when it does not fit you, it is for the council. Therefore, you do not even know who is responsible for what. I therefore, see total confusion.  Sometime I wonder because I would find that this time I would hear the RDA speaking, council speaking, the other time, it would be the hon. Minister of Works and Supply speaking and then, I would see that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing has gone to inspect roads. Therefore, when I listen to all these statements, I just shake my head and say, “Oh my God! God save us”. You will not know who is responsible for what and who is supposed to do what. At the moment, councils have abandoned that function. In most cases, they are not doing anything about roads. When you ask them, they would tell you that it is RDA.

Mr Chairperson, the village in Lundazi where you come from, do they understand RDA? What they know is that …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not bring in the Chairperson into your debate.

 You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for your guidance.

Sir, at that level people only know the councillor, hon. Member of Parliament and the council Boma. That is what they know. They do not know about the people in Lusaka or that Hon. Mulongoti is the one responsible for roads. They cannot appreciate that because he is too high and too far away from them.

 This morning, they were asking the hon. Acting Minister of Local Government and Housing to explain about a road somewhere and whether there is any money. I listened to the explanation by the hon. Minister who said that they prioritised and then send the request to RDA for funding, and  yet when you look at the 2009 Budget under local Government, you will find that K3 billion has been allocated for roads - Urban and Feeder Rehabilitation. This is reflected under Ministry of Local Government and Housing, and yet the hon. Minister was not even aware about that and when he was answering, I was just wondering what he was talking about. I am not saying that it is not good that you have some money which you can hopefully send to councils to be used for roads within their community. I am just trying to explain the amount of confusion that we find in this sector.

Mr Chairperson, I know that one of the problems that we have as a country is the fact that we do not have our own money. Most of this money going towards infrastructure development is from donors. Sometimes the conditions attached to this money force us to do certain things which are very difficult for us as a country. Somehow, because we want the money, we agree to these conditions. Therefore, when it comes to implementation, you would find that it is very difficult and the whole Government system and machinery is so confused in the sense that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing and nobody knows where we are going, where we are coming from or whether we have arrived or we are yet to arrive.

 Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Basically, that is what has happened in as far as I am concerned and in as far as issues of roads works is concerned in this country today.

Mr Chairperson, in the past, you knew where to go to complain about a road.  Today, it is about planning. You have to plan for the roads, send the plan to headquarters, put in the work plan and if it is not there, it means that that year, it will not be done. In the past, this was routine because the councils knew and worked on all the roads within their boundaries either by grading or pothole filling and other things. Suffice to say that at the moment, they are not doing it.

Mr Chairperson, last time I asked the hon. Minister to release the CDF. We are trying to use CDF, but the problem has not been resolved. I do not believe that we are trying to resolve the problem of road works in the manner that we are proceeding. We will do roads in some areas every year, but we will not get to the end of the roads unless those at the local level are allowed to do the roads works on a daily basis in terms of maintenance and everyday work as an everyday activity and not to make it as a ceremony.

Mr Chairperson this is the same problem that you find when it comes to the eradication of malaria. In the past, eradication of malaria was an issue for councils. It was not a daily programme or a ceremony where a minister has to go and officiate.

 Laughter

Mr Masebo: Now, it is the hon. Member of Parliament, the Minister or the chief. Everybody has to go to the ceremony to go and spray a small mosquito.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the only point which I am trying to make which I may not articulate properly enough for my friend to appreciate is that we need to reorganise ourselves properly and not haphazardly because something has gone wrong somewhere, and yet the Government is investing billions and billions and trillions of money in various projects, but the results are not enough. When you look at the amounts of money that this Government has been spending for the last decades and compare it to the result of that investment, you can surely see that something is wrong.  Even the contractors that are being given contracts are not genuine. It is only in this country where you hear the road from where the Chairperson is sitting to here is gong to cost K5 billion. Even the costing itself is not justifiable. You just wonder and say something is wrong.

Sir, speaking for myself, I would like a situation where the Ministry of Works has Supply  a wing  where they can be doing the jobs as Government because like you rightly said, they know how to mix cement and river sand. Now, with all the contractors that you have, they do not even mix things according to specifications. This is the reason the workmanship is poor. Everybody is just worried about making quick money to become quickly rich. Whilst we are celebrating the issue of private public partnership (PPP), let us have our own wing that can do these jobs professionally and properly. Then, the private sector will be copying from the Ministry of Work and Supply. Now, where the Ministry of Works and Supply as just become a spectator, advertising contracts and having breakfast meetings as to which contractor is going to get what …

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, what is happing now is that the Government is losing billions, billions and trillions of kwacha. For example, if you looked at the building where are, do you think the contractors that we have could build the National Assembly.

 Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mrs Masebo: It is not possible. First of all, the bill self will be exorbitant. Thereafter, there will be stories after stories.

  Whilst we welcome the public-private-partnership (PPPs), I think that the Ministry of Works and Supply must ensure that it has its own wing that can do these works professionally. Where there is a gap, the private sector can be called upon to build a school, but the Government standards must be properly followed. If the contractors do not follow Government standards, they will be scared of what Government may do to them. In short, I am saying that Government should not abrogate its responsibilities in the name of PPPs.

In countries where PPPs are being used, the initiative has not just grown over night such that the governments there have abandoned everything and given these fake contractors…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the Vote on the Ministry of Works and Supply.

First and foremost, I would like to mention that …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mwenya: Imwe ichongo chilli shani?

First and foremost, I would like to mention that I do appreciate the debate by the hon. Member of Parliament for Moomba (Mr Mooya). He actually brought out a few issues that I had wanted to talk about. I also agree that some of the issues that Hon. Masebo brought out are very cardinal. Indeed, there are concerns with the road network in the country.

I am one of the aggrieved hon. Members of Parliament, who has not seen any significant road development in my constituency or in Kitwe or Copperbelt as a whole. Of course, we have heard the cries from the Government saying that the cost of doing a road is exorbitant. For this reason, I would like to agree with the last speaker who mentioned that it is important that the Ministry of Works and Supply comes up with a wing that should be able to price and do some of these projects. Probably, it is only then that we will be able to get the value for money for the work that is going to be done.

Mr Chairperson, in Kitwe, we have a very important road that I have always talked about. It is supposed to be regarded as an international route …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament now debating in order to say that he has seen nothing happening concerning the roads on the Copperbelt and yet Hon. Kambwili confirmed that Government constructed a road from Luanshya to Mpatamato? It is a tarmac road and it is available for use. Is he in order to misinform the nation? I need your ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can Hon. Mwenya take that point of order into account as he continues to debate?

Mr Mwenya: Mr Chairperson, I still stand by what I have said. If we are talking of over 500 km of roads on the Copperbelt and you have only done 10 km, can you claim that you have done much work? That is very little work that has been done.

However, I am more concerned about the roads in my constituency, especially in Kitwe. On several occasions we have submitted tenders for the roads. The Ministry of Works and Supply had tendered these works. In fact in 2008 and this year, we have seen tenders being floated in the press.

This morning when I asked a question to the Vice-President, I mentioned that I was invited to attend a meeting at the Ministry of Works and Supply. At that meeting, I was clearly told that the donors are failing to meet their obligation. Therefore, because of that, we should not expect to see roads being worked on. That was a very sad development and a very sad response.

Besides that, I was told that there were problems between the Town Clerk of Kitwe and Roads Developments Agency (RDA) that had also contributed to why the Government cannot work on the roads in Kitwe. I found that to be very shallow because, I do not see how the hon. Minister of Works and Supply can definitely fail to convince or give directives to the Town Clerk and the RDA to ensure that the people in my constituency and on the Copperbelt as a whole, are not denied of good roads.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that we tell the truth because the truth shall always set us free. If we do not have money, let us tell the people that we do not have the money than come on the Floor of this House and inform the nation that Government is doing so much and yet we have not seen anything at all. We want to support you because we know that the resources are limited, but we expect you to come out factually. Do you expect us to go back and tell the people out there that roads cannot be done and yet you are busy promising the people? For example, in this year’s Budget, there is about K60.9 billion that has been allocated to Kitwe and Ndola for urban road works. Imagine I go to a meeting where I am told that the work will not be done. This is not right! We need to be factual and truthful in whatever we say and whatever promises we give the people.

The people in my constituency have suffered for a long time.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Because of riots!

Mr Mwenya: I just want to remind the hon. Minister of Works and Supply that the last time we met, he told me that the road in my constituency is pathetic because he saw it himself. The Republican President also drove along that road and saw the state of the road. I think that it is not questionable, but a fact that that road needs to the worked on. Come January, we expect that there should be contractor working on that road. This time around, we are not going to buy stories of being told that, there is no money or that the donors are not sending in money for road works because we have seen roads being done in other districts. We have seen roads in Lusaka that have been worked on. There, are a number of roads that were done professionally that I can mention. It is important that we share equitably the little resource that we have. We have not been receiving the share that is due to us in our province.

Sir, the PPPs you are talking about could be a solution, but you ought to understand that they can only be a reality when you build confidence in the corporate world. If the business community does not have any confidence in the Government, expecting the initiative to work is a fallacy. It shall never materialise into anything serious. There is no businessman out there who is ready to take his money and pump it into a project with the Government when the Government is a very bad payer. You can never trust the Zambian Government in a contract. So, these PPPs should not be used as an excuse for your failures. Let us be on top of these issues, come out in the open and see how we can be able to bring development and improve the road network in the country.

Mr Chairperson, I agree that corrupt practices in the awarding of these contracts are rampant. Unfortunately, certain contractors think that all those people who pass by as the construction works are taking place are lay people and do not understand what is involved in road construction. I recall at one time finding a road contractor who had just started a job on a particular road and was following the right quantities according to the Bill of Quantities (BOQ). After doing about 2 km, suddenly he changed. He stopped applying the cement. He left out the cement component and simply started applying laterite. I could see that our consultants and supervisors were working together with the contractor. Unless we, Zambians, especially the Zambians who are given this challenge of supervising these works, realise that at the end of the day, they are costing the country millions, billions and trillions of money, we shall not develop as a country.

Therefore, hon. Minister of Works and Supply, you have a very big challenge and a very big job. I know that you are in a very difficult office and the resources are very little, but, we can still do a lot of work from the meagre resources that are allocated to the ministry. I hope that next year we will see a minimum of three roads being done in Kitwe.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: I can see that those who were indicating to speak have given up. I will now call upon Mr C. Mulenga.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Chairperson, I thank you…

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I mean the Mulenga from Chinsali, not you from Kwacha.
  
Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga (Chinsali): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on this vote and I would also like to thank my brother, Hon. L. J. Mulenga, from Kwacha for allowing me to continue with my debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! He is not the one who allowed you but the Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: I meant you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, I will start by sympathising with the hon. Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Mulongoti) because I know that the allocation given to his ministry is not enough to cater for what we want. I have observed that when a Government is immune to the problems that people are facing, that Government becomes a danger to society.

Mr V. Mwale: You are a danger, yourself.

Mr C. Mulenga: Mr Chairperson, whatever problems are presented to such a Government appear not to be peculiar because they have been listening to such problems for a long time. I say so because when I look at the issues in my constituency and the issues countrywide, I find that these have been outstanding for a long time and the Government takes these casually because they have been hearing about them all the time.

Mr Chairperson, I now want to talk about the Great North Road, the T2. My colleagues and I have been talking about this road for a long time and most of the time we have been reminding the Government that the road is a death trap. Just three days ago, we lost many lives in a road accident which, unfortunately, happened in Chinsali. I have been talking about this road for a very long time reminding the Government of its state but nothing has happened.

Mr Chairperson, this road is not only for the people of Chinsali or Northern Province but an inter state road which connects East Africa and Central Africa and, therefore, it is an important road. It is unfortunate to lose such a large number of lives. After losing these people, the bodies were taken to a hospital with no capacity to accommodate them. It is unfortunate because as I am speaking, some bodies have decomposed and some hospitals where the victims of the accident are admitted cannot give proper treatment. I am, therefore, appealing to this Government if it is really a listening one to attend to this road because it is very important. I do not agree that the cause of the accident is only about the necessary papers that the driver did not have. I do not agree that this was so because of driving at night but because, sometimes, drivers drive for long hours because of the bad state of the roads. When a road is in good condition, the driving hours are shortened but because the road is bad, these drivers get tired after they drive long hours and so it is my humble appeal to the Government to pay attention to this road and not what I am hearing that only a meagre K4.8 billion has been given to a contractor to work between Lukulu and Isoka. What can this amount do? Patching will only allow the road to operate for two months and the road will wear out and we will go back to the same situation of losing lives.

Mr Chairperson, I now want to talk about the roads in my constituency. I would like to agree with Hon. Mooya who contributed to the debate earlier that the rural road units need more funding. We can be blaming the administration at provincial level and yet the problem is that the resources are not enough. There is no way you can allocate K2 billion to a province like Northern with twelve districts and about twenty one constituencies because it is very difficult to apportion the amount.

Mr Chairperson, even the K5 billion that you have given us this year will not do a good job. You have given us the equipment, we appreciate but it is not utilised properly because of inadequate funding. Can you look for resources and give them to the rural road units so that they can do a good job and I would like to say that the equipment which left Chinsali for Isoka should come back to Chinsali after doing work in Isoka and Nakonde. The equipment left before completing work. Only thirteen kilometres were done in both Shiwanga’ndu and Chinsali which is not good for the people of Chinsali. We are all Zambians and we need to share the resources, regardless of whether they are little, equitably. Mr Chairperson, we need to share the resources of this country equitably. 

Mr Chairperson, I now want to talk about bridges and I will start with Mbesuma Bridge. It is on the Floor of this House where I asked a question on whether the Government had contracted someone to work on the Mbesuma Bridge and the answer was that Sable Transport had been contracted and a total amount of about K51 billion would be spent and that this would appear in the 2010 Budget. I am disappointed to see that out of K51 billion which was promised, only K1 billion has been allocated. Which bridge can you construct with K1 billion? These are the things that make us ask you questions on a daily basis and we shall not stop.

  I personally will continue to ask you questions because the people of Chinsali did not elect me only to come here and take tea, but also to represent them adequately.

Interruptions

Mr C. Mulenga: So, I will continue asking you questions about the Mbesuma Bridge because I know how important that bridge is. It is important not to the people of Chinsali or Isoka/Kasama or the Northern Province or I only, but to the whole nation. Please, you have to sign a contract and look for resources so that this bridge is constructed.

Mr Chairperson, equally, the bridge that connects Matumbo and Chama is very important. Even administratively, it is costly. It is very expensive for a Permanent Secretary who wants to go to Chipata to come all the way from Kasama to Lusaka to go to Chipata. If this bridge is built, it will actually shorten the route from the Eastern Province to the Northern Province even to Luapula Province. Therefore, we need a bridge between Matumbo and Chama because it is very important and likewise the road.

Mr Chairperson, the small bridges namely; Kalungu, Fonkofonko and Chimbuka …

Interruptions

Mr C. Mulenga: … are important bridges in my constituency. The Kalungu Bridge is shared among three Members of Parliament. Hon. Silavwe of Nakonde, Hon. Paul Sichamba of Isoka and I. Now, on my side of this bridge is where the health centre is and on the other side is where Nakonde and the school is. When this Kalungu Bridge floods, the people on the other side in Nakonde do not come to the health centre and the school children on my side do not go to school. However, when this bridge is constructed, it will serve the people of that area.

Mr Chairperson, my appeal is that these three bridges should be constructed. If you do not have money as Member of Parliament for Chinsali I am allowing the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to borrow for this purpose.

Hon. Government Members: Aaah!

Mr C. Mulenga: Yes, do not borrow to buy the hearses or mobile clinics because those will break down, but borrow to put up infrastructure because it is permanent.

Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Member: They will be washed away.

Mr C. Mulenga: So, we will allow you to borrow so that you come and perform and do this work.

With those few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I rise to support this vote and in so doing, I would like to immediately commend the work of the Road Development Agency (RDA) because it is doing a very commendable job. I would like to be slightly biased here and say that all the Members of Parliament who are engineers know that.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: They know that these people are doing a lot of good work.

Hon. Government Member: We are aware.

Mr Simbao: I am talking about Members of Parliament who are engineers. For example, here in Lusaka, I have seen roads in Nyumba Yanga turn from hell to heavenly roads and I challenge all the Members of Parliament to go there and see the Godfrey Chitalu Road. A year ago, you would curse to use it. Today, it is the road that you really want to drive on.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: I used to pursue the Member of Parliament from there and he had problems for this inertia to move until the Government decided to do it for him and now it has been done.

Ms Siliya: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, in Ibex Hill, if you are going towards there you will see that the road is being worked on presently. Go and see the quality of that road. The quality is very good and we must commend people when they are doing a good job. When all the time you make these negative comments when somebody is doing something good, it makes somebody feel bad.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are really not behaving properly.

Can you continue, hon. Minister, please.

Mr Simbao: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Let me talk about the roads in Kabwata. For those who have been visiting Kabwata, they have seen that the roads have not been tarred, but gravelled to an all-weather standard. Even now, if you go there and drive on those roads, you might forget that you are driving on a gravel road because it is so good and most of the major roads have been rehabilitated. I would have loved it if the hon. Member for Kabwata were here because the way the hon. Member for Namwala debated, I think it is time to say thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: We are seeing this because we are using these roads ourselves. You are telling us as if we are not there, but we are here and are able to give examples of what is happening right here in Lusaka. Therefore, here we really commend RDA and their officials through the Ministry of Works and Supply for doing a great job.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, I am very glad to know that this Government has not given up on most of the major roads. This Government has gone all the way to Mumfumbwe to work on the Mutanda/Chavuma Road. People must understand that the maximum a road unit can tar a brand new road is about 35 Kilometres. That is all. No matter what you can do unless they get a second unit on that project, but most of the people making roads in this country only have one unit each. Therefore, you can only expect them to work on that much. The Mutanda/Chavuma Road is on course and the people of the North-Western Province must be very grateful ...

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: … to this Government that will continue working on this road until we reach Kabompo first and then proceed to Chavuma. The Mutanda/Mwinilunga Road is on course. We have now reached Lumwana and from there, we will go to Mwinilunga. The people of the North-Western Province can see this and they are very happy about it. All this is being done by the RDA. We should really commend these people.

Mr Chairperson, the Chipata/Lundazi Road is being rehabilitated. This is one road which was quite bad about a year or two years ago, but the contractor is on site and he is continuously working on this road. I am sure the people from the Eastern Province are seeing this and I hope they are hearing me because this is an assurance that we shall reach Lundazi and with money, we shall go to Chama.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Simbao: Mr Chairperson, on the Zimba/Livingstone Road, it is a pity that the Member for Katombola is not here because this is a road she used to cry about so much and this Government is working on it. This year or next year, we will reach Livingstone. I am sure it is time for somebody to say thank you to the Government through RDA.

Mr Chairperson, I want to assure you that the works on the Kasama/Mbala Road have now reached Senga Hill and they are going past. It is a great road. I was talking to one of the reporters today and he told me that they have done a great job. The reporter said he was there recently. I hope he is going to write it that the Kasama/Mbala/Mpulungu Road is being worked on, the works have now gone past Senga Hill and the quality of the road is very good. I commend Rubex the contractor that are working on that road. However, all this is happening because of RDA’s supervision to ensure these roads should be so good.

  Whether the Opposition likes it or not, there has been so much progress on the Kasama/ Luwingu Road. The most difficult part of the road, at a place called Chindashika, has been done. This is where people used to die almost every year. All of this is happening because of RDA, through the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simbao: So I do not understand why RDA should be an issue here, when it is doing such a great job which we can all see. If the agency is definitely doing something wrong, we should be able to point out the problem.

I would like to say that road making is a very big challenge which requires expertise. People just see a road and think it is something that can easily be mould. That is not the case. Road making requires a lot of knowledge, experience and takes a lot of time. Most of our civil engineers, except maybe mechanical engineers, can attest to what I am talking about. It requires a lot of time to make a good road. People have been questioning why maintenance of the Kabwe/Lusaka Road has been a problem all the time. It is because the work that has been done by the contractors most of the time has not been very good. However, since a year or so ago, this road has been in very good condition ever since and no one has been seen doing any more work on that road. 

Mr Chairperson, I want to say that the issue of turning councils into road authorities is very important. However, this can only work if councils have corresponding experience and knowledge in this sector. If not, money will just be wasted. At the moment, RDA is present in all provinces. There are about seven or eight provincial offices of RDA that are willing to work with councils to develop the capacity at that level. At the moment, it is impossible for councils to carry out road construction. Maybe a few local authorities like Lusaka and Kitwe might have this capacity, but not all of them are able to do roads. So I would like to emphasise that delegating road making to councils would just be a waste of money at the moment.

So we need to use RDA in provinces. That is why they are there at the moment; to try and assist us build capacity at the district level. So I do not understand where the problem with RDA is. Before RDA was formed, all the roads that were in bad condition at that time were the responsibility of councils.  Surprisingly, people have forgotten that the experienced people that were in councils have since left. They are not there anymore whether ‘poached’ or not. So we now need to rebuild that capacity. I agree with delegating the maintenance of certain roads to councils but right now we need to ensure that RDA, which is in charge of all the roads in this country and is well equipped, knowledgeable and experienced, shares its knowledge with everyone else who needs it.

Mr Chairperson, I, therefore, want to say that I support this vote, but the only sad thing in our country is that everyone thinks they can make a road. It looks easy but it is not. We must leave the people with the experience to do the roads if our roads have to stand the test of time. This is what this Government has done by creating RDA because this is where the concentration of all the professionals is.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I really want to call on the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to wind up debate on this vote, but I saw Mr Mukanga earnestly wanting to debate  ….

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, I know but we have to give a chance to people who have not had a chance to speak in the last one or two days.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving an opportunity to also add my voice to this debate and support the vote. Firstly, I want to make it very clear that we are not going to thank the Government when there is nothing happening in my constituency …

Hon. Government Members: Aah!

Mr Mukanga: … and in Mufulira in terms of road maintenance. The people are not going to agree with me and therefore I cannot agree with hon. Members on your right.

Mr Shawa: Question!

Mr Mukanga: What is there to thank the Executive for when there is nothing happening as regards road development? The roads in Mufulira are in a very bad condition. Most of the lives that we have lost between Kitwe, Mufulira and Ndola are as a result of the poor performance of the Ministry of Works and Supply. Why should I come and thank the ministry when there are a lot of road problems and we are losing lives? It is important that we look at issues as they are on the ground.

The Mufulira/Sabina Road is impassable and I can even thank the little children putting clay on potholes so that the roads can be passable. We have lost a lot of lives on those roads and I do not see anything to be grateful about to the Government.

The Mufulira/Ndola Road is another road that is in a terrible state as well as the Mukambo/Ndola Road. The Government has failed to perform in this sector.

Last year, we were told in this House that the Government was going to procure twenty-two pieces of equipment which were to be given to the Ndola District administration and this was done. However, we have not seen this equipment in Mufulira. The feeder roads are very bad and impassable and the rainy season is just starting. How are the people going to do their farming and transport their produce to the market? What does the Government want us to be grateful for when the people of Muya and Kamukolwe and Masaiti do not have roads?

I even want to talk on behalf of hon. Members on that side who have masking tape on their lips and cannot speak about the bad state of roads in their constituencies. It is important to understand that as long as there are no proper roads on the Copperbelt, we will not appreciate the works of this Government.

Mr Chairperson, there was an advert that came out on the Copperbelt about three years. We were told that RDA had sourced out some contracts and was going to award these contracts so that the roads could be done. I am talking about roads like Changachanga, Chitimukulu and other roads in Mufulira. However, it has now been three years and nothing has happened on the ground and the people of Mufulira are wondering what is going on. This is why they even wrote a petition to the President. Can the people petition if there is something going on?

Interruptions

Mr Mukanga: That is an insult to the people of Mufulira. They will never acknowledge and appreciate this Government as long as development is not taking place. There was a provision of K2 billion for feeder roads to be done in Mufulira. When we wanted to get the required equipment from the district administration, we were told that there was no money for fuel and therefore, we had to look for fuel money. Nobody knows where the money allocated for fuel has gone. These are the issues I expect the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) to be investigating because money is finding its way out of district administration coffers without a trace.  How do we expect people to benefit from the money approved in this House if it is not properly accounted for?

Mr Chairperson, it is not right for some hon. Members to stand in this House and say that we should use the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) to maintain roads in our constituency. How much road construction works can we do with K600 million? Probably, just about 60 per cent of a kilometre or 600 metres. Is that what hon. Members on your right are expecting? This amount would not even do 600 metres but just 60 metres.

Mr Chairperson, no one should be running away from the fact that these roads should be done. It is the Government’s responsibility and it, therefore, needs to find the resources. I know the amount of money required is colossal, but that is why we have been telling this Government to collect money lying somewhere in the mines and everywhere else. What is why we are talking about reintroduction of windfall tax. Money collected from windfall tax may be used to repair all our roads and make sure that our people are comfortable travelling from one place to another. Right now it is difficult for a person to be given confidence to travel to the Northern Province. I recall an incident whereby some people left Kitwe and had an accident. The reason is because of poor roads. People have accidents as they try to avoid potholes and this is where the problem is.

This Government is responsible for the lives we are losing because it is not getting the money lying somewhere in the mining sector. Zambia is like a rich man who has not been having meals because he does not know where to get the money when it is just behind him. It is important that the Executive gets this money from the mines because there is a lot of money in the hands of investors that have come in this country. So I cannot agree that we do not have the resources.

It is true that we should provide the necessary resources to RDA so that it performs and the Government should come up with ideas of where we are going to get these resources from.  However, this is through windfall tax and that is why we have been talking about this issue so much.

Mr Chairperson, in 2004/2005, we were told by this same Government to submit names of bridges that were swept away by the floods and we submitted the names, but nothing happened. It has taken a very long time. Last year, some more bridges were swept away.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, I can give you examples of bridges that were swept away in Mupenani, Muya and Chandamali in my constituency. It is not only in my constituency, but even in areas like Masaiti, Saka, Kafulafuta  and Mpongwe, bridges were swept away and have not been repaired. If you went there, you will find that nothing is happening. People have been complaining, but here you are saying that we must thank you for the work that you are doing. We will only thank you if you do beyond what is expected of you.

Sir, talks regarding works on the Pedicle Road have been a song for a long time. We said that we wanted the Pedicle Road to be worked on and we have been singing about it immediately after the completion of the Chembe Bridge. However, nothing has happened up to now. What is the purpose of having a bridge if there is no road? Let us do first things first so that we move properly. Our children especially, those who live in between the river and the school will not be able to go to their schools.

The other issue is the state of the Government buildings in this country. Maybe only in Lusaka, that is where government buildings looks good, but is Lusaka, Zambia? If you went to other government buildings you start wondering the way these buildings look like. They have never been painted for a long time. Why should we be keeping buildings like that? After all, that is the whole essence of us looking at quality control and management. There should be a proper maintenance system, …

Hon. Government Member: You are not in control!

Mr Mukanga: … yes we are not in control, but I want to tell you what you should be doing. If you want to have proper maintenance, there should be a system. If there is a system, you should be able to provide the resources required. If you do so, then you are going to see quality. If the Ministry of Works and Supply revamps this system and it starts working properly, it can change the outlook of Zambia.

For as long as they continue singing songs and burying their heads in the sand like an ostrich, there will be nothing that will be happening. We want to see a difference in the way people Government workers are treated. I have seen that when government workers are working on the road they are easily identified just by their approach to safety. You will find some of them do not even have gloves and gumboots. They compromise safety regulations so much. When you see somebody who has followed the safety regulations to the latter, then you will know that they work for a  private company.

Therefore, it is important to ensure that you inculcate in the minds of these people the need to comply with safety. There is no way the Government is going to blame the Chinese for not following safety regulations when its departments are not following what the regulations. It is important that we address these issues as this ministry is very important. Without addressing these issues properly, this ministry will just be like any other ministry and will not make a difference. It is important that when you are in those offices you make a difference so that when people look back to what you did, they will say that it is true that when Hon. Mulongoti was there, he did wonders; and in that way, we will support you.

 However, you need to address these small issues so that things start working. We cannot condemn RDA for not performing well if it is not funded. Therefore, let us provide systems and corresponding funds so that things work. I will not thank anyone and I am not here to thank anyone if the people of Mufulira are not going to benefit from this budget.

Sir, when we talk about the national cake, everyone should get an ample share from it. If the people of Mufulira are not going to have enough cake, then I will not support you. The people of Mufulira have worked so hard for this country even the copper you are seeing is coming from there. The people of the Copperbelt have worked very hard and sent each one of us to school using money earned from the copper sales, but what have you given them in return? Nothing.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you, so much.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to respond quickly to some of the issues raised by the hon. Members. We have heard most of what has been said before. We have been holding meetings at my ministry to discuss issues and problems faced in constituencies with hon. Members. Therefore, having dealt with those issues at close range, I find it difficult to respond to what has been said because we agreed on the way forward.

Mr Chairperson, as regards corruption, there are many people who claim that there is a lot of corruption, but if pushed to go and report the same instances they are not able to. This is just giving the country a bad name. Let us be a little more careful with what we say about ourselves.

My sister Hon. Masebo was hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. She had an opportunity to correct some of the things she talked about. I do not see any confusion in the way things are at all.

Mrs Masebo: I tried, but failed.

Mr Mulongoti: All that we see is that when we the leaders give conflicting instructions, we bring about confusion. She had difficulties in accepting RDA for whatever reason and this is where the tag of war started. If a hon. Minister refuses to accept an institution, it is difficult for those people at the lower level to accept it. In such a situation, we would entangle ourselves in whatever difficulties that we think are there.

Mr Chairperson, we want to put capacity in councils, but if the councils had the required capacity, then RDA was not going to be intervening in the work. It will only go there to intervene when it sees lack of capacity. We will enhance the capacity of the council, but it is a long-term process.

As regards bridges and roads, we have discussed this issue at length. Hon. Yamfwa Mukanga, one thing that I can say to you as a councilor is that there was a study done by a committee of parliamentarians on resources in councils and it was established that Lusaka City Council, for instance, was bigger than any company that is in Lusaka. They have got opportunities to raise more funds than any company in Lusaka, same for Mufulira and Kitwe. What we are lacking is your leadership as councilors. You are looking to the Central Government and yet you have resources around your areas in your councils which you are not able to tap for one reason. You are concentrating so much at what Hon. Musokotwane can give you, yet you have resources around your constituencies that you must tap into. As long as that kind of attitude continues, we are talking about pipe dreams.

We want you to contribute money to the century Treasury, but instead you are looking to get money from it. How about the rates from all those properties that are in Mufulira, what are you doing about them? Where is your entrepreneurship? Please do not just come 
crying to the central Government, let us see your capacity to generate income in your councils.

When you talk about utilising the CDF funding, why do you want to pay a club K2 million for a chicken run instead of channeling it to do good roads for them? Please let us be a little more objective about things.

Hon. Simbao, I thank you very much for your support as my senior hon. Minister who was at the helm of the Ministry of Works and Supply before me. You have said everything they way it is. I do not even know why I am even standing here.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Vote 64/01 (Ministry of Works and Supply − Human Resources and Administration Department − K71,348,606,287).

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 583, Programme 22, Activity 06 − Africa Public Service − K44,258,000. There is an increase of K44,258.000 and the same activity appears on page 588, Programme 2, Activity 15 − Africa Public Service − K49,294,900. Is there is something that is missing because the total comes to K93,552,900?

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Chairperson, on page 583, Programme 22, Activity 06 - Africa Public Service Day – K44,258,000 and on page 588, Programme 2, Activity 15 – Africa Public Service – K49,294,900, these are two different departments. The first one is for general administration and the other one is for procurement.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 64/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 64/02 – (Ministry of Works and Supply – Buildings Department – K46,443,623,360).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 589, Programme 8, Activity 09 – Landscaping of the Front of Government House. Why is it not budgeted for this year because it does not look like the Vice-President lives there? It is interesting to note that I should have been the first occupant if I did not refuse, but I still want it to look nice.

Secondly, may I have clarification on Programme 11, Activity 02 – Construction of New Office Block in Kazungula District - K5,736,000. What kind of office will be built in Kazungula that will cost K5 million?

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, on page 589, Programme 8, Activity 09 – Landscaping of the Front of Government House, the money that was budgeted was utilised and I am sure are aware of what has so far been done. This structure does not need any money now.

As regards the second part of the question on Programme 11, Activity 02 – Construction of New Office Block in Kazungula District – K5,736,000, there is money for surveying of the site and so has been budgeted for so that the programme can start.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9, Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Independence Stadium – K26,059,315. Has the Government stopped rehabilitating the Independence Stadium because K26 million will be nothing? Secondly, may I also have clarification on Programme 9, Activity 03 – Construction of Ndola Stadium – K700,000,000. What is it for because the Chinese I believe are constructing this stadium?

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 9, Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Independence Stadium – K26,059,315, the provision is required to meet the cost of the rehabilitation by the people who will be supervising the work there. Secondly, on Programme 9, Activity 03 – Construction of Ndola Stadium – K700,000,000, this provision will meet the cost of supervision. People who will be visiting making sure that quality work is being done at the stadium.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 64/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 64/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 64/06 – (Ministry of Works and Supply – Planning and Monitoring – K5,086,503,955).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 597, Programme 7, Activity 03 – Meetings. How is the ministry going to work without having meetings?

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 03 – Meetings, this is a cost saving measure where people will be meeting without allowances.

Thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Vote 64/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, we were supposed to go to Head 51 – Ministry of Communications and Transport but, for other reasons, we are not able to do so. We will go onto Head 27 – Public Service Management Division.

VOTE 27 – (Public Service Management Division – K298,548,168,570).

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Chairperson, I am grateful for the opportunity to present a policy statement for the Public Service Management Division Budget for 2010.

Sir, the Public Service Management Division in the Office of the President is mandated to manage human resources in the Public Service in order to improve service delivery for national development. Its portfolio functions are outlined...

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, he is making a policy statement and so the point of order should not be raised.

The hon. Minister may continue.

Dr Mwansa: Its portfolio functions are outlined in the Government Gazette Notice Number 547 of 2004...

Mr Mukanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a serious point of procedure. Is the hon. Minister of Defence in order to deliver the policy statement when the division is under His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice?

The Deputy Chairperson: His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice has authorised the hon. Minister of Defence to deliver the policy statement on his behalf and, therefore, he is in order.

The hon. Minister of Defence may continue.

Laughter

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

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The House adjourned at 1257 hours until 1430 hours on Tuesday, 17th November, 2009.