Debates- Tuesday, 17th November, 2009

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Tuesday, 17th November, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]






Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in the absence of His Honour the Vice-President and Learned Minister of Justice who is attending to other national duties, Hon. Dr Kalombo T. Mwansa, MP, hon. Minister of Defence, will act as Leader of Government Business in the House from Tuesday, 17th to Wednesday, 18th November, 2009.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




191. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Community Development and Social Services:

(a) when the last valuation of properties belonging to the Zambia Agency for Persons with Disabilities (ZAPD) was undertaken;

(b) what the total value of the properties were; and

(c) when the next valuation would be undertaken.

The Deputy Minister of Community Development and Social Services (Mr Malwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House that the valuation of properties belonging to ZAPD took place in 1996, 2006 and 2007, respectively.

The total valuation of the properties valuated is at K2,304,700,000.00. The following is a table of the properties that underwent valuations and in which year:

No. of Name of Type of Property Location Value Year of
Properties Property    Valuation

01 Kang’onga Production Centre Kavu- Ndola K900,000,000  1996

01 Lusaka Stand Lusaka K88,000,000  2006

 01 Fisenge Farm/Production Luanshya K598,200,000  2007
  Centre Rd Luanshya   

04 Lilanda Dwelling Houses Lusaka K277,200,000  2007

01 Emmasdale Car Park Great North K122,100,000  2007
   Road Lusaka  
01 Emmasdale 1x semi detached Mansa Road K148,600,000  2007
  House Lusaka  

01 Stand No. 4831 Dwelling House New Location K25,300,000  2007

01 Stand No. 232 Dwelling House Mushota K40,500,000  2007

01 Stand No. 358 Dwelling House  Bangweulu K104,800,000  2007

The total value of the properties valuated at market value for sale is at K2,304,700,000.00 

Mr Speaker, as soon as ZAPD gets title deeds for the remaining twenty-three properties, it shall valuate the properties as this is an on-going exercise for the agency.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, Lumano Farm Block and Mukanu Cottage are in Chipili Constituency. I would like to find out from the hon. Deputy Minister when these two farming blocks will be valuated and whether this will be done by a private or Government evaluator.

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, as I indicated earlier on, the valuing of properties for ZAPD is an on-going process. You may wish to know that in 2007, the valuation was done through the Government Valuation Department. Therefore, the property that has not been valuated now, in Chipili Constituency, will be valuated by the Government Valuation Department.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister stated that Fisenge Farm Block was valuated at K598,200,000.00. I would like to find out what the ministry is doing to ensure that this farm returns to productivity and adds value to the operations of ZAPD.

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, we have now employed qualified personnel as farm managers to improve supervision and production of farm produce at Fisenge Farm Block.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: Just to guide the House. None of you has the authority to coin words. The word here is “value” and not “valuate”.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Mr Speaker, considering that there are many disabled people who are living in ZAPD properties, what plans has the ministry put in place to make sure that ZAPD gets what is due to them?

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, when it comes to farming, as the period is now, we give them farming inputs such as fertiliser and seed. When it comes to any other problems that people living with disabilities are facing, they are always helped by ZAPD and we assist them according to the problems that they are facing. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, most of the buildings belonging to ZAPD are actually death traps because of their age and lack of repair. Therefore, what is Government’s intention with regard to rehabilitation of the properties that were last valued in 1996?

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, for Kang’onga Production Centre, which was valued in 1996 at K900,000,000, we intend to re-value this property after we have made renovations and rehabilitations to it so that it can fetch good value on the market.

Hon. Opposition Members: When?

Mr Malwa: Sir, others are saying, “when”? You heard me correctly when I said that the rehabilitation of ZAPD infrastructures is ongoing, just like we are also valuing these properties.

Sir, I know that these properties are in a dilapidated state but this is why we have given them funds in this Budget. Most of that money will go towards the rehabilitation of ZAPD properties.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Colonel Chanda (Kanyama): Mr Speaker, going by the answer given by the hon. Minister and the many properties that belong to ZAPD, why is it so difficult for this association to access loan facilities from financial institutions on behalf of its disabled members instead of depending on funding from the Government which is usually not adequate?

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, it is not possible for ZAPD to borrow money from any other lending institution to rehabilitate these infrastructures that are dilapidated because paying back will be a problem. Some of these infrastructures are on rent and part of the money that they are getting is from rentals and the money which the Government is supplementing will continue helping with the rehabilitation of dilapidated properties for ZAPD

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, on what basis was the valuation done without the title deeds?

Mr Malwa: Mr Speaker, I think what the hon. Member wants to know is how a title deed is issued. Some of these properties are in areas which belong to traditional land. The chief will write a letter to the respective councils and then the councils will write consents to the Ministry of Lands. The Ministry of Lands will also go to inspect and then, send the Government Valuation Department to go and value these properties. Once these are valued, they now get title deeds and become properties of ZAPD.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.


192. Mr D. Mwila on behalf of Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning how much profit was made by the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS) from 2007 to 2009, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National Planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that K5,077 billion was recorded as profit in 2007. K5,450 billion was recorded as a loss in 2008 and K15,071 billion was recorded as a profit in 2009. The House may wish to note that the profit tax posted in 2007, 2008 and 2009 is reported as the after -ax position.

Mr Speaker, the loss recorded in 2008 was due to an extraordinary item related to historical staff costs of about K10 billion.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Speaker, in 2007 and 2009, K20.8 billion was made as profit. May I find out how much money was declared to Government as dividends?

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Mr Speaker, there were no dividends declared because the institution requires to build up its capital base.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.



193. Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu) asked the Minister of Works and Supply when bridges would be constructed on the Matumbo-Chama Road to connect Northern Province to Eastern Province to encourage tourism and improve the living standards of the people in the two provinces.

The Deputy Minister of Works and Supply (Mr Ndalamei): Mr Speaker, the tender for the construction of the Matumbo Bridge on the Chama/Matumbo was evaluated in April, 2009. The contract could not be awarded because the lowest evaluated price was much higher than the amount provided in the 2009 Annual Work Plan.

The bridge project will only start upon securing sufficient funds. In preparation for constructing the bridge, a good road has been constructed from Chama to Matumbo. In addition, the Bailey bridge components are already on site and we shall endeavour to scout for internal resources to install the bridge during the coming financial year.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Major Chibamba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister aware that there is no road between Matumbo and Luangwa where the bridge is supposed to be constructed?

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, our equipment is already on site. We are in the process of repairing the road in preparation for the construction of the bridge between Chama and Matumbo. If, therefore, the hon. Member says that there is no road, we shall verify that.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether the Government had budgeted for the two bridges in 2009.

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I stated earlier in my response that we had allocated some money for the construction of the Matumbo Bridge in the 2009 Budget. However, the money was not sufficient enough for us to sign the contract. We already have a contractor for the bridge and we are just waiting for sufficient funds for us to sign the contract. 
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister indicate to us what the shortfall in the contract is with the amount that was approved in the work plan? May he, also, indicate what the Government has done with the money allocated for the construction of the bridge?

Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, I will only answer the last part of the question.


Mr Ndalamei: Mr Speaker, for the exact amount of money, the hon. Member can ask that as a new question and we will give him the answer. For the last part of the question, however, we did budget for works on this road, but the money was not enough to award the contract.
Mr D. Mwila: How much money?

Mr Ndalamei: If you want those details, you can come to the office. 

Thank you, Sir.
Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!




Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt the Report of the Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 10th November, 2009.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.


Mr Speaker: Order!

That is extremely rude. I have said this before. When are you going to learn to have some manners?

The hon. Member for Sinda may continue.

Mr Ngoma: Mr Speaker, for their programme this year, your Committee decided to pay particular attention to the following issues:

(i) The prevention of child labour in Zambia;
(ii) The promotion of sport in schools and institutions of higher learning.

Mr Speaker, with regard to the first topic, your Committee decided to carry out an appraisal of the current situation by establishing the extent of child labour in Zambia and also the efforts towards its prevention.

Mr Speaker, after examining the various submissions from witnesses, it became very clear to your Committee that, indeed, child labour is a growing concern in Zambia. There is, therefore, urgent need for the Government to seriously intervene in the matter and ensure that child labour is completely eliminated.

Sir, your Committee were able to establish that close to a million children in Zambia are involved in child labour. Out of these, close to 800 children are involved in hazardous labour likely to harm their normal development. It was sad for your Committee to learn that girls, as young as eight years old, are being trafficked from the rural to the urban areas where they are made to work for long hours as housemaids and child minders whilst enduring physical, verbal and, in some cases, sexual abuse.

Mr Speaker, in their deliberations, your Committee were made aware of the fact that the prevention of child labour cannot be dealt with in isolation, but in conjunction with other issues such as poverty reduction through job creation, HIV/AIDs prevention, care and support, accessibility to education, other basic social services and positive socio- cultural sensitisation. Further, your Committee strongly recommend the launch of the National Child Labour Policy and for the domestication of the Convention on the Rights of the Child.

Mr Speaker, your Committee are aware of the fact that the process of issuing the statutory instrument that defines hazardous child labour has been delayed. This statutory instrument is the basis upon which inspection and prosecution can be carried out. Your Committee recommend the immediate issuing of the statutory instrument and the implementation of the National Plan of Action for the Elimination of Child Labour. Only when the above have been adequately achieved can Zambia do away with child labour.

Mr Speaker, in their assessment of the promotion of sport in schools and institutions of higher learning, your Committee examined the Government’s activities aimed at ensuring that sport is adequately taught ad practised. Students and pupils are, indeed, the backbone of the development of sport in Zambia.

Mr Speaker, in their deliberations, your Committee were made aware of the fact that though sport, which is a part of physical education, is taught and practised in schools and institutions of higher learning, more needs to be done to ensure that it is adequately and efficiently taught and appreciated by the students and pupils.

Mr Speaker, sport in schools and institutions of higher learning has been greatly hampered due to outdated, inadequate sports infrastructure and equipment, inadequate structure for effective promotion and development of sport in the country, inadequate funding from the Government and the lack of qualified human resource in schools and educational sports federations.

Your Committee, therefore, recommend for the recognition of sport in learning institutions by prioritising support to the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development and the Ministry of Education. The Government should ensure adequate funding for sports activities in learning institutions through the above two line ministries. Educational training institutions should be strengthened and guided towards full recognition of sport as a profession. The Government should ensure that adequate preparations are put in place for the examination of sport in schools and institutions of higher learning.

Your Committee also recommend the full operationalisation of the recently-launched Sports Policy. Only when the above have been fully dealt with, can sport be adequately and efficiently taught and appreciated by pupils and students.

Mr Speaker, in conclusion, allow me to express my gratitude to you for the guidance given to your Committee during their deliberations and for appointing us to serve on your Committee. I also want to thank all the stakeholders for their submissions to your Committee. I further wish to congratulate the Members of your Committee for working tirelessly in order to come up with this report.

Mr Speaker, finally, may I extend my gratitude, on behalf of your Committee, to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for facilitating our meetings and tours and for the invaluable advice and services rendered during the year.

Mr Speker, I beg to move.

Mrs Phiri: Mr Speaker, let me begin by congratulating the mover of the Motion for the able manner in which he has performed his role. Let me also state that most of the issues regarding your Committee’s report have already been pointed out. However, allow me to emphasise a few pertinent issues.

Mr Speaker, your Committee had the opportunity of undertaking tours in accordance with their planned programme of work. In relation to the topic on the prevention of child labour in Zambia, a tour of Kalingalinga, one of the oldest townships in Lusaka, revealed that, indeed, child labour is a serious growing concern. Several children, some as young as twelve years old, were found crushing stones for as little as K2,000.00 per wheelbarrow.

Mr Speaker, your Committee recommend that to adequately deal with issues such as the above mentioned, the Government should work closely with the local grassroots organisations in the various communities where child labour is rampant. Sensitisation campaigns against child labour should be planned and implemented at community level with the involvement of parents and guardians.

Mr Speaker, a tour to the sports facilities in various learning institutions revealed a very sad picture. Most of the facilities are outdated, non-functional or non-existent altogether. It was sad to discover that Paralympics sport has not yet been included in the curriculum of the teacher training colleges and that Physical Education is still not examinable.

Your Committee recommend that the Government should adequately and regularly fund learning institutions. A clearly specified amount should be set aside for sports development. The policy of the teacher training colleges should be reviewed to include disability sport and the examination of Physical Education.

Mr Speaker, let me conclude my seconding of the Motion by commending the University of Zambia for the introduction of the Diploma in Sport. This is, indeed, a plus to the development of the professional undertaking of this course.

Mr Speaker, with these few remarks, I beg to second.

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, allow me to briefly contribute to the report of your Committee.

Sir, the young in this country are facing major challenges. Therefore, without serious programmes that will make them busy, they will easily do bad things in society. The ministry that is concerned with this aspect must come up with programmes that will cover the whole country to involve young people in sensible activities and keep them away from social evils.

Mr Speaker, when you go into the hinterland of this country, there is no support that is given to the young people in terms of recreation. For example, facilities for games such as football, netball and other sports are not there. The Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development must roll out a programme of supporting young people in sports to keep them away from social evils. Nowadays, it is very clear that most of our young people have resolved to drinking and involving themselves in serious vices like illicit sex and, in the process, end up getting HIIV/AIDS. This is happening because they have no alternatives to engage themselves in during their free time, especially in our country where there are high unemployment levels. Therefore, it is very important for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development to come up with serious support to our youths, especially in the rural areas.

Mr Speaker, I do not think that it is very expensive to support the youths in terms of    equipment for games like football. Most of the support to football is not seen in the rural areas. Basically, the support is mainly concentrated on the national teams and teams that compete at international level. We forget that the sport itself is not only for competition, but to keep young people busy during their free time. In this way they can concentrate on things that are sensible and protect their lives from social evils.

 Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, as they look at this report, to seriously look at the sports infrastructure and yearly support in terms of the equipment to the young people in the rural areas. If possible, let there be serious allocations to footballs and netballs, yearly, and constituency by constituency, so that the young people can be involved in sports and be kept healthy and busy in sensible activities.

Mr Speaker, with these few words, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, I am also going to be brief.

Sir, I want to take Hon. Hamududu’ words as my own, but add a little more. On page 5, the report is talking about poverty and vulnerability to economic shocks as one of the reasons there is child labour.

Mr Speaker, I do not know the working relationship between the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. I want to believe that the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services has a programme of supporting the parents of the children who were on the streets at one point so that they can go back home. Can we not use the same scheme in the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development either through the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services or have a separate scheme, as a ministry, to ensure that child labour is reduced because parents are going to be helped through this scheme?

Sir, on Page 6, the report is talking about the completion of works and performance at examination level being very low, especially for girls. I do not know what measures we are putting in place to ensure that the girls compete favourably at the same level with the boys. Sometimes, girls’ retention is difficult because of the infrastructure in schools. When building classrooms and ablution blocks, the only concern is that schools are being built for children and it ends there. As to who is going to use one ablution block from the other is not taken into consideration. We do not mind how many toilets we build for girls or boys.

If the enrolment is fifty girls and fifty boys, we always build the same number of toilets, that is; two toilets for the girls and two for the boys and yet we know very well that girls use this facility more than boys. Therefore, this means that girls need more of these facilities than the boys. Then, if this happens, girls will stay in school more than is the case now. At the moment, they stay home because the facilities in schools are not adequate. I hope that the school authorities will seriously think about this issue.

Mr Speaker, on Page 15 of the report, the Committee talked about Physical Education (PE)  starting from Grade 1 to 7 and that provided one has a teaching certificate he/she can teach PE. However, I am of the view that not everyone is interested in PE. What should happen now is to have a Physical Education teacher to be in charge of Physical Education at a school. This used to happen before. Why can we not bring it up?

At the district education level, there was somebody in charge of PE who went round the schools to ensure that the teachers that were in charge of PE were actually teaching it. What has happened to having an inspector in charge of PE at the provincial level? These people were trained in PE.

I recall that we had the Kangalamas and Kalalukas of those days at the national level to ensure that the provincial inspectors of PE were doing their work and, also, to ensure that the inspectors at the district level were doing their job. Most importantly, the teachers in charge of PE were doing their work. However, now things have changed. If one is trained to teach from Grade 1 to 7, then he/she can also teach PE. Is it not possible? Physical Education is a different talent from that of a teacher teaching Mathematics or English, because we have specialised teachers in these subjects. For PE, we need special teachers.

Mr Speaker, still on Page 15, your Committee talked about promotion of sports development in the country, including schools. Now that we have the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development in place, is it possible for us to work with the Ministry of Education? At that time, we did not have a ministry of sport, but only the Ministry of Education. Now that we have a ministry specifically for sport, is it possible for this ministry to train teachers in PE so that the teachers posted in our schools will come from the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development? I am saying so because if there will be any programmes set for the schools, the people in the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development will refuse, saying that they are not in charge of schools because schools come under the Ministry of Education and yet they are one and the same. Our aim is to develop the child whether as Ministry of Education or as Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

Sir, I wish to suggest that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development should have teachers that are specially trained in PE to ensure that the subject and other sporting activities are taught in schools.

With these few words, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Speaker, I wish to also support the report of the Committee on Sport, Youth and Child Affairs. In doing so, Sir, I wish to make a few comments.

Firstly, the youths of our country must be treated well since they really are the most important resource that we have as a country. It is the youths who will form the next generation of elderly people. It is the youths who will take over from us when our time is gone. Therefore, it is extremely important that we take cognisance of this fact and ensure that we look after their affairs very well. It is good to note that there is a very energetic Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development.

However, I want to bring to his attention, through you, Mr Speaker, the fact that he must be the most vigilant of all hon. Ministers in the way he promotes the interests of our youths. We need to know that these youths are the window of hope for our country. These are the people in whom we should repose our knowledge and experiences in order to ensure that our country survives through them carrying, with them, the knowledge that we have taken from our forefathers. Yet we need to know that they are most vulnerable because in most cases they are dependant on the elderly people in society.

The youths are special, first of all, in an environment like ours where HIV/AIDS is wrecking havoc, because they supply us with a window to get to a next generation which is free of HIV/AIDS if we look after them well and ensure that we train them to avoid practices that do not engender good health. We need to ensure that they are protected from abuse. We need to ensure that those who abuse our youths are punished so that a lesson is taught to others who may be of the same disposition. More importantly, Sir, we must ensure that this generation does not transfer its diseases, problems and dangers to the next generation.

We have passed through problematic years and times such as hunger and single-party democracy, things that we should be relegating to the past, including the use of youths in unwarranted violence during political campaigns. Sir, it is totally unacceptable that in this day and age we should be using youths to fight each other for political gain. It is a disgusting process that is taking place in our land, at a time like this, forty-five years after independence, that we would encourage our young people to hack each other and throw stones at each other basically because you want political power. That is totally unacceptable. Any one tendering to that is not worthy of being called a leader. We need to put in our youths a character of integrity. We need to ensure that our youths take from us responsibilities of running a country as one people. This country needs each and every one of us. Most of all, we, as elders and leaders of this country, need to ensure that we hand over, to our youths, a country which is a single unit and entity. We must ensure that we hand to them the moral integrity required for them to run this country well. What do we see in today’s politics?

It is that we, the elders, in our quest for power - whether to remain in power or assume power - are using these people whom we are supposed to be teaching good manners and morals, to become thugs and vagabonds, throwing stones at each other, encouraged by no other than we, who are in political power. It is such a shame. We need to realise that if we hand over to them this disposition of fighting, we are actually undermining our own country.

Sir, this country has known peace since its independence. I think that we need to nurture that peace, ensure that unity and make sure that our youths pride in the fact that we, as their forefathers, are leaving to them a heritage of peace, singleness of mind and purpose for the good of the nation.

Unfortunately, that is not what we are seeing in today’s Zambia. We seem to see people priding in people fighting each other and it is unfortunate that we hear leaders applauding a fight between youths. Shameful as it is, it is true and it is unfortunate that such people should come to this august House because this is a place where we should teach decorum, integrity and build character.

We are supposed to be the opinion makers and people our youths should look up to in terms of how they live their lives. To be found in the forefront of demagogues is totally unacceptable. Certainly, it is important to shield our youths from labour abuse whilst they are young, but I would like to say this, at the risk of being misunderstood, that Zambia’s customs and traditions are not written, but are in the minds and intellect of our people, parents and grandparents. Most of the things our youths will learn from us concerning our traditional culture will have to come from practice and oral tradition.

In an environment like that, it is our responsibility, hon. Minister, to ensure that either we codify the things we believe in as a people or we allow room for our children to learn the things we treasure as Zambians. We should not allow a situation where we have no identity uniquely Zambian. If we do not watch out, we will find that the traditions of our children have nothing to do with the tradition of this country. At that point, we must give room for our traditional leaders or cultural depositories to transfer knowledge to our youths. In some cases - and I will take my own example - I learnt to work as a child from my father and I am proud to say that the knowledge has remained with me to this day. I fear to imagine what would have happened, education-wise, had I not been taught at an early age that there is value to education and hard work. At what point do we draw the line between child labour abuse and the way our culture transfers knowledge from the elders to the younger generation?
Mr Speaker, it is the responsibility of the ministries of Education, and Sport, Youth and Child Development to look into this matter seriously so that we do not become a country without its own identity and ideals. It is important that we review the things we hear and say and dare not parrot what we hear. We need to analyse what we hear and take it into our own context and see how it will best help our country. Short of that, we will be leaving our children to the dictates of a world outside of ourselves and that will be a mistake which will not be good for this country.

Mr Speaker, I would like to be sure that I leave my children in a country where the traditional ideals are, as it were, infused in the new and an education system that ensures that there is a fusion of what we hold dear and what the Bemba-speaking people or any other of our groups hold dear to themselves, and fuse that with modernity. It is when we leave our children without a traditional base that we have them lacking values. It is not uncommon in this day and age for young people to fear to greet their elders respectfully because it may not look modern. It may look like they have taken on the culture of the traditionalists and yet there is value in those things. When we were growing up, genuflecting to the elders was a sign of respect. It is rarely seen today. We are even shy to do it, but look at the Japanese, for example, who will always bow to their elders and those they respect and it has grown. That is a very sophisticated and highly technological country and yet it has maintained certain things that make them uniquely Japanese.

Mr Speaker, when we are thinking of youths, we should not be thinking about them in terms of educating them or giving them a modern education. There are limits to what modern education can do and I would like to say that modern education, if not carefully analysed, can actually put us into another mental slavery. We may be taught English, Mathematics and the rest and know them because they are good, but we only utilise that when others instruct us to do so.

I was reading a book not too long ago entitled “The Miseducation of the Negro”. This is what the author says about the American Negro. He says that American Negroes, at one time, were blacks like ourselves. They are people who left this continent to the Diaspora through slavery, and were finding it difficult to be supervised by a fellow black. When a white person supervised them, it was alright, but the moment a black person was promoted to a supervisory position, the people who brought him down were fellow blacks. That sounded familiar to me because it is similar to what is obtaining in my country. We do exactly the same and somehow we have not taught ourselves the ability to know that the best supervisor you have is one who has interest in the country, one who is a fellow Zambian and whom you should be proud to be supervised by.

What do we see in our country? In this country, people take pride in being employed by a foreigner. When foreigners use them, they will go out boasting to each other that they are employed by a “Mr so and so” from such a country. This is done proudly and they can work their lungs out for a foreigner. Take the same person to an industry run by a Zambian, the change becomes drastic. They literally become different people and begin to look at this man as somebody using them to get rich. We need to inculcate in our youths the need to value their country and institutions more than anything else and that cannot come by teaching them to throw stones at each other, but only by deliberate education.

Mr Speaker, I plead with our House to become the first example of integrity to our children.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, I thank you for affording me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on the report of your Committee in which your Committee have highlighted a good number of issues on which I would like to comment.

Mr Speaker, the biggest war which the Government in power in ten years’ time is going to fight will be between the youths of this nation and the Government of the day in that 70 per cent of Zambia’s population are youths. The vibrancy that I see in our youths, if it is not well or correctly harnessed for productive purposes, will lead to a revolt against even those men and women, today, who want to abuse the youths to gain political mileage.

Mr Speaker, coming from a background of interacting with youths, I would be failing as a Member of Parliament, who is professionally a teacher as well, if I do not wholeheartedly and passionately debate the issue of the Zambian youths. As parents, all of us must be concerned. There is a need for the hon. Ministers of Youth, Sport and Child Development, Education, Community Development and Social Services, and Agriculture and Co-operatives to sit down and reflect thoroughly on the need to design a deliberate policy to address issues of youth development, unemployment and education in this nation.

Mr Speaker, when I was a school boy, there were deliberate programmes by the Government to ensure that young farmers’ clubs were fully operational in each school. In 1971, when I was at Malcolm Moffat Teacher Training College, I was in charge of the production unit where I learnt how to rear chickens. I spent time in the brooder taking care of chickens until they reached a stage when they could be sold. I never went to my father to ask for money for school fees because after selling the chickens, I used to pay schools fees from the same money. Hon. Hamir’s father, Mr Mataya Badat, used to buy chickens from our poultry and cabbage from our garden. Therefore, I thank the Principal, Mr Matibini, the father of Dr Matibini - may his soul rest in peace - for this.

Mr Speaker, even culturally, it was the obligation of every parent to ensure that his/her children became productive individuals in society. That is why I am saying that even with modernity, like Hon. Mwansa has said, there is need to address the issue of youth development in terms of production, education and economic emancipation.

Mr Speaker, I would like to mention that the youths who I always interact with - even the last time I was in the village - suggested some of the best things which, if applied, any Government that will be in place will have no problems even in terms of marketing and growing our GDP because the most productive age are the youth. Those who are in their mid-50s or 60s are living on borrowed years, but the youths are the ones we have in our country are 70 per cent productive.

So, hon. Minister of Youth, Sport, and Child Development, there is need to stratify what would be best for the graduates who are youths when they leave universities. What has the Government put in place for them? You may recall, hon. Minister, that when you and I graduated in the 1970s, there was the Manpower Development Programme which assimilated youths into employment. I think that idea should be revisited today so that students who are interested in agriculture can go to agriculture colleges. Why do we not give them part of the Citizens’ Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC) money so that they can produce and grow our GDP and foreign exchange? Why can we not identify youths, like Hon. Musokotwane said, who could be very good footballers and boxers and come up with a deliberate programme such that when they leave school, instead of roaming the streets of Lusaka or Kasama, they can develop their various skills and create employment for themselves? That way, we are going to address this issue of unemployment. Why can we not get women who are interested in nursing activities to go for training? Then the issue of a revolt I am trying to perceive will never be there because we will have addressed the concerns of the youths.

Mr Speaker, what is required, here, is for this very hardworking Government to redesign and have a deliberate programme to address issues of youth unemployment and education so that all social vices among the youths, who are our future, can be eradicated.

I thank you, Sir.

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Mr Speaker, I wish to thank all hon. Members of Parliament who have debated the report of the Committee in Sport, Youth and Child Affairs.

Mr Speaker, we have taken note of the issues raised by the hon. Member for Chifunabuli who indicated the use of youths in the developing political anarchy. This is really unacceptable. Teaching youths our traditions is also important. At this point, I wish to appeal to parents to help teach traditions to the youth. I am sure that is why the traditional ceremonies are held in all parts of this country. They are intended to teach the youths.

I agree with the hon. Member for Bahati who has a passion for children since he was once a teacher himself. There is need to revive the young farmers’ clubs in all schools. I am sure we need to sit down with our colleagues in the Ministry of Education and discuss that issue.

I wish to thank you, Hon. Musokotwane. The relationship between my ministry and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, in fact, is very cordial and we work hand in hand with each other. We are looking at most of the issues that you have raised.

Hon. Member for Bweengwa, we thank you, but would like to ask for your help. Occasionally, we provide some footballs and netballs. So, use them to tap talent. I also want you to inculcate the spirit of competiveness in various sports in your constituency and districts. You can also invite us so that the sports NGOs and officials from the ministry can come and see what you are doing. We have already been to other places and you should not be left out.

Mr Speaker, may I also thank Members of the Committee for coming up with such a good report that has brought to light pertinent issues affecting sports management and administration. It has also highlighted the challenges my ministry is facing in co-ordinating child, youth and sports issues.  I would like to assure all hon. Members that my ministry is totally committed to resolving the issues brought out in the report.

Mr Speaker, my ministry faces the challenge of inadequate funding for an affective sports delivery system to be put in place. We need good infrastructure and training facilities for sports, coaches’, administrators’ and athletes’ development systems. All these programmes cannot be undertaken with meagre resources.

Mr Speaker, I am happy that there is a slight increase in next year’s funding although it is still not adequate. On page 22 of the report, an issue has been raised that my ministry is failing to adequately delegate to the National Sports of Council of Zambia (NSCZ). I wish to point out that the Ministry of Sports, Youth and Child Development does not actually delegate to the NSCZ. The NSCZ derives power and authority to administer, regulate and monitor sports from the National Sports Council Act. The Act gives powers to the NSCZ to administer and run sports through national sports associations affiliated to it. My ministry is very confident that the NSCZ is competent to run sports in the country under the able chairmanship of Hon. Chifumu Banda, SC., MP.

Mr Speaker, your Committee has observed that the NSCZ continues to have seconded staff such as the general secretary and others. This has been the case because of financial constraints. My ministry is actually very grateful to the Ministry of Defence for continuing to second staff who have contributed tremendously to the development of sports in the country. The situation will continue until the NSCZ is able to employ its own staff.

Mr Speaker, lastly, I wish to assure the House that we are in the process of streamlining the disbursement of grants to sports associations affiliated to the NSCZ so that the question of duplication of efforts does not arise.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Speaker, I wish to sincerely thank all hon. Members of the House who have debated this Motion of the report of your Committee as well as those who have not debated but have attentively listened. I believe they are also in support of the Motion. I, therefore, wish to urge the House to adopt the report.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Question put and agreed to.




VOTE 27 ─ (Public Service Management Division ─ K298,548,168,570).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Chairperson, allow me to make a policy statement on the 2010 Budget for the Public Service Management Division (PSMD). PSMD, in the Office of the President, is mandated to manage human resources in the Public Service in order to improve service delivery for national development. Its portfolio functions, as outlined in the Government Gazette Notice No. 547 of 2004, are: public service management, human resource management and development as well as performance management services.

Mr Chairperson, through its six departments, namely Administration, Recruitment and Placement, Human Resource Information and Planning, Human Resource Development, Technical Services, and Payroll Management and Establishment Control (PMEC) Support Services, the division is responsible for human resource development, planning, performance and records management systems, industrial relations and management of the payroll and establishment for the Public Service. It also provides advisory and functional guidance to ministries, institutions and provinces on human resource matters. Further, the division processes appointments, promotions, transfers and separations as well as disciplinary cases in the Civil Service. In addition, the division oversees the Future Search Project which is involved in the training of public service workers in social and business counselling, entrepreneurship development and monitoring.

Mr Chairperson, in the 2010 Budget, the division will continue to monitor and evaluate the implementation of the Public Service human resource policies and regulations in the areas of recruitment and placement, human resource development, PMEC, human resource planning and information, records management and terms and conditions of service. Further, the division will continue to co-ordinate the implementation of the voluntary medical scheme, industrial relations and labour matters and process separation of employees from the Public Service.

Mr Speaker, to enhance the management of payroll and establishment control, the division has commenced the upgrading of the PMEC system this year and this will be completed in 2010. The upgrading exercise will include retraining the end users from human resource and accounting cadres on the use of the upgraded PMEC system.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to human resource development, the division will continue to co-ordinate the design and implementation of human resource development policies and programmes in the Public Service. Key programmes to be implemented include human resource capacity building, monitoring and evaluation of human resource development policies, programmes and activities in the Public Service as well as facilitating development of training and development plans, upgrading and disseminating human resource development information and co-ordinating technical assistance for human capacity development.

Mr Chairperson, the division has been separating Public Service employees who were not placed during the restructuring of Government ministries and institutions. While most Government ministries and institutions have been restructured, some are yet to be restructured. In 2010, the division will continue processing payment of separation packages to employees who will not be absorbed in the restructured ministries and institutions. The division will also facilitate the processing of separation packages for employees in the abolished Government departments who have not been absorbed in the newly-created Government institutions. These include, among others, the Road Development Agency (RDA), Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA) and Legal Aid Board.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to performance management and human resource planning in the Public Service, the division will continue with this exercise in the remaining un-restructured ministries and provinces and embark on the upgrading exercise of the human resource information data base. This will enhance the assessment of performance at the individual and organisational levels as well as improving human resource planning.

Mr Chairperson, the Government has developed an HIV/AIDS prevention and mitigation strategy for the Public Service which is expected to help the Government manage and mitigate the effect of this epidemic on the public service delivery. The division will facilitate the implementation of this strategy, commencing with sensitisation of Public Service employees and the stakeholders.

Mr Chairperson, it is my hope that the estimates of expenditure for the Public Service Management Division will be supported to enable the division perform its functions effectively for improved service delivery and national development.

Sir, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairman, I am overwhelmed by the level of support by the House. This is as it should be.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Let me just guide the House, particularly hon. Members on my right. While some of you have been listening to questions being asked, it appears others may not have been paying great attention to the questions being asked. In the past, we have noticed that when questions or a question has been asked, those responsible for answering them seem to have some difficulties. Let us pay particular attention when questions are being asked so that we move fast.

Vote 27/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 27/05 − (Public Service Management Division − Technical Services − K28, 078,985,735).

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on page 335, Programme 8, Activity 01 − Services to Retired and Separated Employees − K375,648,683. I would like to have a bit of information on what services are offered to separated employees.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Chairperson, the provision is required for services to retired and separated employees. The increase is due to the increased number of anticipated personnel to be retired in 2010.

The services include matters of repatriation as there are some movements when people are retired, and of course, any queries that might arise from such employees.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 27/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 27/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 34 − (Human Rights Commission − K8,587,495,029).

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the budget for the Human Rights Commission for the year 2010.

The Human Rights Commission is a constitutional body established under Article 125 of the Constitution of the Republic of Zambia. The powers and functions of the Commission are outlined in the Human Rights Commission Act number 39 of 1996. Its main functions are the investigation of any human rights violations, investigation of maladministration of justice and conducting inspections of prisons, police cells and other places of detention. The commission is also mandated to carry out continuing programmes of research, human rights education and awareness and to facilitate the rehabilitation of victims of human rights abuse.

Mr Chairperson, the commission also has the mandate, as appropriate, to conduct public sittings at which human rights issues are heard.

Sir, I am glad to inform the House that the commission is established in line with the international guidelines as provided for in the United Nations principles relating to the functioning of national institutions for the promotion and protection of human rights, popularly referred to as the Paris Principles. In this regard, the International Co-ordinating Committee for National Human Rights Institutions, in 2006, graded the Human Rights Commission, our commission, as a ‘Status A Institution’, because it is set up in compliance with the Paris Principles.

Mr Chairperson, for 2010, the Human Rights Commission has been allocated a total amount of K8,587,594,029 to implement the above mentioned functions.

Sir, in 2010, the commission, through its Investigations and Legal Services Department will:

(i) continue to conduct investigations throughout the country on reported matters of human rights violations;

(ii) visit places of detention, these being prisons and police cells; and

(iii) conduct training for law enforcement agencies to educate them on 
matters of human rights in the context of law enforcement.

Mr Chairperson, I am glad to report that in order to improve its investigations and complaints handling, the commission has developed two manuals - a complaints procedure manual and an investigations manual. These manuals are still being fine tuned and the commission intends to operationalise them beginning in the first quarter of 2010. The manuals have been developed in line with best practices that other sister institutions are using in other countries. The primary aim is to enable the commission serve the public better.

Sir, as indicated above, the commission has in place programmes in human rights education and awareness. In 2010, the Information, Education and Training Department intends to intensify these activities in order to improve human rights awareness among the Zambian public. In particular, the commission will continue to implement its community radio project. Under this project, the commission is working with various community radio stations around the country to help mainstream human rights in their programming. In 2009, the commission trained a number of community radio personnel in Eastern and Southern provinces based on a tailor-made training manual. The idea of using community radio is intended to afford as many people as possible, particularly in the rural areas, the opportunity to receive human rights awareness and also, in turn, enable the commission become informed about pertinent human rights issues affecting their communities. The commission will also continue to work with the Government and other stakeholders in raising general human rights awareness through radio, television and other media.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of research, I am glad to inform the House that the commission published its second State of Human Rights Report in 2009.The State of Human Rights Report, spearheaded by the commission’s Research and Planning Department provides observations on the human rights situation in Zambia based on research conducted over a year.

Sir, in 2009, the commission also embarked on a research in employment and labour rights following numerous complaints, related to the same, since the inception of the commission. A lot of work has been done during 2009 and the commission will soon begin the task of putting together a comprehensive report to be published early in 2010. In 2009, the commission launched its Office of Commissioner for Children’s Rights. The office is intended to provide special focus on issues affecting children. With help from the Government and interested co-operating partners, the commission will work at consolidating and strengthening the operations of the office in 2010.

Mr Chairman, in conclusion, I wish to inform the House that the commission will continue to strengthen its presence in the five provinces outside Lusaka where it has offices. The provincial offices have proved invaluable to the work of the commission as they have brought its services closer to the rural communities.

Mr Chairperson, I urge this august House to support the 2010 Budget for the Human Rights Commission.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr K. Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I am again overwhelmed...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr K. Mwansa: ... by the support the work of the Human Rights Commission has received.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 34/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 88 – (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development – K258,236,015,213).

The Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development (Mr Machila): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to deliver this policy statement on the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development.

As you are aware, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives has been divided into two ministries, namely, the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, and the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development. The move is meant to make the two ministries operate and serve the stakeholders more effectively and efficiently. The new Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development will emphasise and concentrate on the development of livestock and fisheries sub-sectors and effectively tackle the constraints that the two had been faced with over time. The policy of the ministry will be to control livestock and fisheries diseases and to increase the production and productivity of the two sub-sectors.

Mr Chairperson, our vision is to have a livestock and fisheries sector that is efficient, productive and sustainable and assures full security and increased income. This vision strives to contribute to the overall goal of the Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper which is to achieve poverty reduction and economic growth. The ministry has five departments, namely, Veterinary and Tsetse Control, Livestock Development, Fisheries Development, Policy and Planning, and Human Resource and Administration. The mandate of the Department of Veterinary Services is disease control, protection of public health and the control of vectors. The Government has made great strides in helping to combat the main livestock diseases that have ravaged the livestock sub-sector for a long time.

Due to the control measures which are aimed at reducing the disease incidence through the vaccination campaigns carried out in 2008 and continued through 2009, my ministry, this year, did not record any outbreak of the major livestock diseases such as foot and mouth disease (FMD) and anthrax. The levels of contagious bovine pleuro-pneumonia (CBPP) also greatly reduced. This is a major success in the control of these livestock diseases. A total of K15.5 billion was spent on the purchase of one million doses of FMD vaccines, veterinary materials and field operations.

Mr Chairperson, vaccination activities against the east coast fever, commonly known as corridor disease or denkete continued in Eastern and Southern provinces. During the first round of vaccinations, a total of 21,199 calves were vaccinated. A second round is being undertaken this month. Research into east coast fever strains in Lusaka, Copperbelt and Central provinces that began in 2009 will continue into 2010. Conclusion of this will enable farmers in the three provinces to also vaccinate their animals against east coast fever and, thereby, reduce cattle mortalities.

The ministry shall also continues to monitor highly pathogenic avian influenza or bird flu countrywide. Zambia continues to be free of the disease, but a successful simulation exercise of a hypothetical outbreak was carried out in Chisamba in early October to test our preparedness. My ministry is also actively involved in the surveillance of the HN swine flu influenza in collaboration with stakeholders. To date, no HN has been identified in our livestock population despite recording positive human cases.

The focus, with regard to combating the problem of tripanosomiasis, lies in our having embraced the tsetse eradication approach as spearheaded by the African Union’s Pan-African Tsetse and Trypanosomiasis Eradication Campaign. Five aerial sprays were carried out this year in the 5,000 square kilometre-area of the Kwando-Zambezi Tsetse Belt, in Western Province, as part of the on-going eradication campaign. This covered parts of Shang’ombo and Sesheke districts. Other achievements include the maintenance of a 350-square kilometre tsetse barrier in an area bordering Malawi from Isoka to Chama. The increase in the cases of human trypanosomiasis in the country, particularly in the Luangwa Valley, makes it even more urgent that the ministry gives the tsetse eradication campaign even more attention. For this reason, my ministry plans to undertake a collection of baseline data to establish the nature and magnitude of the problems in the areas of concern and to effectively engage in eradication campaigns through existing and planned vision projects or programmes.

The Department of Livestock Development is mandated to increase livestock production efficiency and support livestock trade.

Sir, the Government has seen an increase in milk production through the involvement of co-operatives at milk collection centres. This has helped to alleviate poverty amongst small-scale farmers. This approach is going to remain our main means of intervention in this sector. The year 2009 has seen a 6 per cent increase of processed milk over the 2008 production figure.

Mr Chairperson, the poultry sub sector has, in the last year, increased its contribution to the livestock gross domestic product. This is with the involvement of both large and small holder farmers in the sector. The industry, in 2008, saw a production value of over K700 billion.

The other sub-sectors of livestock industry have produced goods of a value of over K500 billion, some of these being meat, leather and horns.

Sir, some of the biggest challenges in this sector are water for the animals and processing affordable and quality feed, both commercial feed and grazing grounds. The source of breeding and production stock is also another challenge.

Mr Chairperson, this year, my ministry also embarked on the creation of a livestock disease-free zone in Lusaka, Central and parts of the Copperbelt provinces which have been identified as suitable areas to begin this venture. To ensure that the large investment that is being placed in these areas yields maximum benefits, the departments of Veterinary Services, Livestock Development and the private sector are working in partnership. My ministry is undertaking the following activities:

 (i) the establishment and upgrading of livestock checkpoints;

 (ii) the establishment and construction of breeding centres;

 (iii) rehabilitation and construction of laboratories; and

 (iv) animal identification and traceability system.

Mr Chairperson, the Department of Fisheries is mandated to ensure sustainable utilisation of fish resources in capture fisheries and promotion of aquaculture development in Zambia.

In the 2009 Budget, the Fisheries Department was allocated K14.9 billion and achieved the following:

(i) the construction of office blocks in Nakonde, Mumbwa, Shang’ombo and Chirundu;

(ii) the electrification of Mwenda Fish Farm in Mwense District and Chipita Fisheries Station in Kawambwa District;

(iii)  the construction of Chembe staff houses in Mansa District;

(iv) the rehabilitation of a security wall fence at the marine workshop in Chilanga and four laboratories in Chilanga, Sinazongwe, Mpulungu and Mwekera in Kitwe.

(v) the procurement of a fish tanker and research vessel;

The construction of office blocks, electrification of fish farms and rehabilitation of laboratories at some fisheries and aquaculture research stations has improved service delivery due to improved working conditions. In addition, the rehabilitated Government fish farms have contributed positively towards supply of quality fingerlings to fish farmers. Furthermore, capacity is being built in communities to take up the challenge of co-managing the fisheries.

Mr Chairperson, allow me, now, to turn to the 2010 Budget. My ministry has been allocated a total sum of K258 billion. Out of this amount, a total of K185.76 billion or 72 per cent will come from our Government while K72.24 billion which is 28 per cent will come from co-operating partners.

Sir, the main thrust in 2010 for the livestock sector will be the operationalisation of the livestock disease-free zone, establishment of livestock breeding centres and service centres, rehabilitation of camp houses for extension officers and the procurement of transport.

The details of this are as follows:

(i) K1.8 billion has been allocated for revamping breeding livestock centres in the Luapula, Northern, Eastern, North-Western, Southern and Western provinces;

(ii) K3.8 billion has been allocated for establishing livestock service centres in Western, Eastern and Southern provinces;

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.


Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended I was listing the details of the 2010 Budget and continue as follows:

(iii) K3.4 billion has been allocated for rehabilitation and construction of camp houses in all provinces;

(iv) K5.5 billion has been allocated for the purchase of motor vehicles and motorbikes for livestock district and camp extension officers.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can we consult quietly on my left?

The hon. Minister may continue.

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson,

(v) K2.1 billion has been allocated to veterinary services for control of emergency livestock disease outbreaks and enforcement of movement controls; and

(vi) K4.1 billion has been allocated for the control of tsetse flies and Tripanosomiasis countrywide.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry is committed to spearheading veterinary and livestock development through demand-driven research technologies and livestock disease surveillance activities. This will, in turn, contribute to improved disease control and increased livestock productivity. In this regard, K3.1 billion has been allocated to the veterinary and livestock development research stations at Mazabuka Central Veterinary Research Institute, Mochipapa, Misamfu, Katete, Ngonga, National Livestock Epidemiology and Information Unit and regional laboratories.

Mr Speaker, the ministry has been allocated K4.8 billion for livestock and fisheries training institutions. This allocation will enable the Zambia Institute of Animal Health, Palabana Dairy Training Institute and Kasaka Fisheries Training Institute to continue playing their role of providing trained manpower for the livestock and fisheries sectors.

Sir, in 2010, the Fisheries Department has been allocated K20.4 billion which will focus on the establishment of fish breeding and distribution centres in high potential zones. In addition, fisheries co-management structures will be strengthened. This is aimed at sustaining fisheries resources and enhancing public-private partnerships (PPP).

In order to improve the working and living environment of its staff at the district level, the department will continue construction of office blocks in Lusaka, Kapiri-mposhi, Ndola, Mansa and Kasama. Staff houses will be constructed in Zambezi, Chienge, Kaputa and Luangwa districts.

Mr Speaker, in 2010, the department will spend K10.5 billion on the following:

(i) K2 billion has been allocated for support to fisheries research and monitoring and climate change and fish disease in all lakes and rivers in Zambia;

(ii) K4.6 billion has been allocated for aquaculture development which will look at fish farmer training, stocking of small water bodies through continued fish breeding and fingerlings distribution in North-Western, Copperbelt, Northern and Eastern provinces;

(iii) K3.9 billion has been allocated for capture fisheries  management and development where Government will work with the communities in the management of fish in the lakes and rivers in Southern, Western, North-Western, Copperbelt, Luapula, Northern and Central provinces; and

(iv) K9.9 billion has been allocated for infrastructure development and procurement of land and water transport.

Mr Chairperson, the allocations for the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development are not controversial and I urge hon. Members of this House to support this vote.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka (Mbabala): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this vote.

Sir, in supporting this vote …

Dr Scott: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Scott: Sir, I am directing this point of order - and I must emphasise that I am not a daily reader of Erskine May. I may be slightly misdirected, but I think the Chief Whip is the suitable recipient of this point of order.

The substantive Vice-President is not in the House and the reason we were given earlier, today, was that he was attending to equally important national duties. In fact, he is on radio campaigning for one of about fifty or sixty registered political parties…

Hon. Government Members: Where are your people as well?

Dr Scott: … in Zambia using extraordinarily bad language against some of the other registered parties in Zambia and their leadership.

Sir, I am wondering whether the Chief Whip is in order not to be whipping us properly so that parliamentarians are doing parliamentary work or when they say they are on national duties they are on national duties?


Dr Scott: When the rest of us go to campaign, we take leave. We do not say we are going on national duties. Should we also be going on national duties …

Hon. Opposition Members: With helicopters!

Dr Scott: … and flying in helicopters? I seek your advice.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You see, the person who informed the House that His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice was on national duties was the Speaker of this Parliament. Your point of order seems to be challenging the statement that was made by the Speaker. If that is what you want to do, maybe, there are other openings through which you can challenge the hon. Mr Speaker.

The hon. Member for Mbabala can continue, please.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hachipuka: Sir, in supporting the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development budget, I would like to state, from the outset, that this, to me, is an exact science. This is because its terms of reference and objectives are very clear. They are even better than those of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

The Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives depends, entirely, on weather patterns. If, this year, the weather is fine and there is adequate rainfall then, the yield will be fine. Therefore, whatever statistics the ministry brings to this House can be subjective whereas the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development, particularly the livestock aspect, is measurable. This is a new ministry.

Mr Chairperson, with the amount of money that has been allocated to the ministry, I hope that the hon. Minister and ministry officials will immediately, from the outset of this ministry, take stock of what exists in this country in terms of cattle. They can conduct a census of the population of cattle, how we are able to convert cattle into beef, and how much beef is being consumed and exported. It is an exact science.

Sir, from the outset, the ministry should set targets for itself. For example, by the end of December, 2010, the ministry should be able to know what it has achieved in terms of disease control.  This ministry can state its position now or by January 2010 and what its position would be by the end of the year. The ministry should be able to keep a record of how many cattle were born or died during the course of the year. They can do that because it is an exact science.

Mr Chairperson, I do not want to waste much of your time, but I would like to urge the hon. Minister to be very exact from the outset in terms of keeping records and setting targets of what the ministry hopes to achieve. The ministry must regularly inform, if not this House, at least, the public at large. This is a computer age era. The ministry can give us clear information just like the hon. Minister has tried to do in his presentation. We need exact information on disease control and fisheries. This ministry can actually give us this information, keep statistics and set targets for both commercial and peasant farmers. This is because rearing cattle does not depend on rainfall. It does not depend on any specific achievements, natural calamities or natural support. It does not depend on those factors. Therefore, in approving this K258 billion, I hope that next year, the hon. Minister will be very specific and tell us what he will be able to achieve. This is a kind of expenditure that can be accounted for in terms of his achievements.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute on this vote.

Sir, I would like to state that I will be very brief because I just want to build on what Hon. Hachipuka was talking about. Kazungula is one district where animal disease has not been eradicated. I expected the hon. Minister to tell us what the ministry is doing because most of the diseases in Southern Province come from Sesheke through Kazungula to other parts of the province. That is why I wanted the hon. Minister to tell us what they are doing to ensure that diseases are not going to spread to other parts of the province through Kazungula.

Mr Chairperson, I wanted to hear the hon. Minister state the number of animals that are infected or not infected in Kazungula at the moment. We are worried in Kazungula because the rainy season has started and we cannot afford to hire tractors. We have no animals and cannot buy animals. We are not even allowed to bring animals from other districts that are disease free. As a result, life in Kazungula has become very difficult.

Sir, four months ago, we were told that about 2 per cent of the disease was still in Kazungula. Now, is the case still the same? Has this disease completely gone or has it increased? We do not know what is on the ground. I expected to hear this information from the hon. Minister. When he winds up, I hope he will answer my questions because this is very important for Kazungula District. We have no animals of our own. We need to start buying animals in order for us to go ahead with agriculture, but the Government is not helping us. The money that has been given to Kazungula District is not enough, taking into consideration the problems that we have in livestock. Some districts have been allocated with more funds when they have no disease problems. Kazungula has a lot of animal diseases, but it has been given less money. The hon. Minister should really try to relocate some funds in the budget so that more money goes to Kazungula District.

Mr Chairperson, the other hon. Members of Parliament from the Southern Province and I have been crying for the Government to build an abattoir in Mwandi so that the animals from the Western Province do not come through Kazungula District. The answer we have always got is that, “No, that should be done by private investors.” It is the Government that is friends with private investors. It can tell one investor to build an abattoir in Mwandi. The Government can do that because private investors are their friends and not ours. It can only fail to do this if it is not serious about eradicating the diseases.

Sir, how many times have we talked about the cordon line at Kasaya? Ever since the Government put one or two poles some five or six years ago, it has been abandoned, and yet it is talking about eradicating diseases in Kazungula. In this regard, we are not very happy with the budget for Kazungula. We are also not happy with the efforts the Government is taking to eradicate animal diseases in Kazungula District. Can it, at least, allow us to buy animals from other districts so that we go about living our lives?  At the moment, our lives are static.  We do not know whether to go left, right or centre. Now that we have the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development, we, in Kazungula, need direction as regards this programme.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): Mr Chairperson, I would like to congratulate Hon. Machila for being the first hon. Minister for the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development. As we have a Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development, I am sure, we are all going to be encouraged to be livestock farmers.

Sir, in the process, I also find a few problems that I would like to highlight in this House. It seems we do not have breeding centres. These are very important for us, upcoming farmers, because if I want to keep animals, where do I buy them from?  One would depend on buying from other farmers, but there is a danger of buying animals that are diseased. So, if the Government does not have the capacity, I am sure it can allow private farmers or investors to set up these breeding centres so that we can buy animals from them. The Government and the ministry’s role should be to monitor, evaluate and see how the process is being carried out.

Sir, the other problem is that, since we do not have breeding centres, the cost of buying animals is very high. For example, if one wants to buy diary cattle, some of them go for as much as K10 million. Very few people can afford that price. We also depend on buying goats from local farmers and some of the breeds are not very good and they do not grow very well. Therefore, it is important that the breeding centres are looked into so that we can have places where we can go and buy these animals.

We have few disease-free zones. I know of two zones and I would, therefore, like to say that we should have more of them. This should be extended to the northern part of Zambia. In the past, it would be said that people of the Northern Province did not keep animals, but we have started. We have plenty of water, the pasture is good and we can help our farmers because once they start keeping these animals, they can better their lives. This can be done by way of selling some of these animals and also by using the animal manure as fertiliser to grow their crops. All we need to do is train more officers so that they can go to most parts of the country and train people on how to keep animals. I also want to find out if it is possible to set up a livestock support programme just like we have the Fertiliser Support Programme. I am sure if a person is given two animals this year, after three  years, you are not going to go back to give them animals like we do with the Fertiliser Support Programme, year after  year. When people have enough animals, they can sell these animals for them to buy fertiliser. This can enable them grow more hectarage of their crop. Therefore, we should think seriously about that.

Sir, with regards to fish farming, right now, there is just too much pressure on our lakes. Everybody wants to go and catch fish from our rivers and lakes.  I think there should be a deliberate policy to stock our lakes and rivers. We need to collaborate with our neighbouring countries because some of the rivers run from one country to the other. Very soon, we shall find that we do not have any fish in our lakes because of not putting in measures to replenish the fish. People should also be encouraged to do some fish farming. I am doing fish farming on a small-scale…

Hon. Members: Where?

Mrs Sinyangwe: … and I need a lot of help if I have to expand into a large-scale fish farmer. I think this is a new ministry and we need to support it. The hon. Minister responsible for this ministry also needs to do a lot if this ministry has to grow. The ministry needs most of us to go into livestock and fish farming.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Mr Speaker, to begin with, I would just like to indicate to this House how desirous I am for Hon. Machila’s ministry to succeed. I want to be a bit specific, regarding the issue of infrastructure for cattle disease. In this House, we have heard how the Government has a programme to build infrastructure in terms of dip tanks for the control of animal diseases in what it deems disease-free zones in the Central Province and parts of the Northern Province. I would like to urge the hon. Minister to also extend this exercise to the Western and Southern provinces where we know that, culturally, and not withstanding what Hon. Sinyangwe has said that even other parts of this country have gone into the culture of rearing livestock, this industry has already shown signs of flourishing. I think it is important not to kill the industry there. Therefore, I would like to urge the hon. Minister that in curbing animal disease, infrastructure for cattle must be placed in abundance in the Southern and Western provinces. I would also like to indicate to the hon. Minister that the disease cordon line matter must be attended to with the strictest attitude.

Sir, we all know that it is due to uncontrolled movement of livestock from diseased zones into disease-free zones that aids the spread of diseases that the hon. Minister spoke about, such as the trypanosomiasis, foot and mouth disease and contagious bovine pleuro pneumonia (CBPP) . I think that the issue of the cordon line is a very good way in which disease control can be managed.

In my view, it is absolutely difficult to understand how dip tanks can be built in Central Province where there are no diseases. Furthermore, our security organs are not strict enough, even if they pretend to be, in terms of policing the movement of cattle. If you go to the Kafue Bridge, you will understand that livestock moves arbitrarily. All it takes is to entice the officers at the check point and cattle will go through without production of any certification from either the Veterinary Department or the police.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister talked about the Zambia Institute of Animal Health in Mazabuka, established in 1923, with specific objectives to train our nationals in animal husbandry. It is sad to note that despite the infrastructure that the colonialists put there, this institute is an eyesore at the moment. It was on the verge of collapse and closure in the 1990s when the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government put up a K2 billion fund, which was locked in a particular bank for a very long time, for the development of vaccines in Mazabuka.

This whole project actually failed to take off with the institute nearly coming to a close. Now, I am glad that it is beginning to show signs of life. However, I would like to caution the hon. Minister and his officials that back in the year when the institute was almost closed, management had decided to place about twenty security guards on the premises to protect the infrastructure that was contained on those premises. This was ten years ago.

Mr Chairperson, the state of affairs at this institute has taken a dramatic turn of events because these twenty individuals who were rightly placed there, and on a salary from the institution, have either got relatives or, in line with the law of nature, have reproduced and have many children. Today, we have in excess of 720 people squatting on these premises. I have a letter to the hon. Minister to ask for this institution to be saved by quickly and expeditiously removing these people and finding them an alternative place so that the institute is not suffocated with squatters. A clear example is what happened at the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC) where people from a named political party started allocating plots on the institute’s ground until control was lost. By the time the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, together with their colleagues in the Ministry of Lands, decided to take action, a few wrongs had been committed.

I am, therefore, urging the hon. Minister and his officials to quickly find a way to remove these people from the premises of the institute, which, like the NRDC, still sits, despite having been established in 1923, without title. I am urging the ministry to move quickly and get the place resurveyed and issue a title. I have requested the hon. Minister and, through you, Sir, I will repeat my request. The periphery of this untitled land must be given to the 720 people so that they are cleared away from the institution’s grounds for the institute to operate more effectively.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to add on what Hon. Sinyangwe spoke about in terms of the trans-boundary water ways regarding fishing. I have Lake Tanganyika as one of the examples that I am going to cite as well as Lake Kariba. It is plain knowledge that the Zimbabwean fishing industry continues to flourish whilst ours continues to diminish. This is because of the manner in which these water bodies and fishing activities are managed on our side. It is easy to understand also that Tanzania and Burundi - especially Burundi - have got their own effects on discharging effluent into Lake Tanganyika. I think that the hon. Minister, through his colleague, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, must invoke dialogue with these countries so that they can try as much as possible to reduce pollution in Lake Tanganyika.

Mr Chairperson, I have already spoken about the cordon line. However, I would like to end by, also, stating that in the Southern Province, we have cartels of cattle rustlers. This is one sure way in which we have failed to control the spread of animal disease. Therefore, the hon. Minister must also invoke the action of his colleague in the Ministry of Home Affairs to introduce much more punitive measures to whoever is found stealing cattle.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to add my voice to this vote.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to also render my support to the ministry’s budget.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to begin by declaring that I come from the Luapula Province, where fish is a real issue. We have enough water out there to feed this country ten times over, every year, with fish. However, the reality on the ground is that fish has been depleted in almost every water area you go to. In certain cases, certain species are extinct. Apart from what the Programme for Luapula Agriculture and Rural Development (PLARD) is doing by talking to people, there is nothing tangible to see regarding how much the ministry is doing to restock our lakes and rivers in the province.

Mr Chairperson, I recall, not too long ago, asking a question about efforts to restock the lakes. The response I got from the hon. Minister, at the time, was that the venture was too expensive to be carried out and that there was no programme, therefore, by the ministry to restock the lakes. I find this extremely sad for a country that has long prided itself in the availability of fish and fish stocks.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to say that while we say so much about nurturing the fish stocks in our country, certain foreign countries have taken our fish, multiplied it and sold it back to us. China is a perfect example. Right now, most of the fish we are eating from Shoprite is from China. I cannot understand how we, who have our own lakes, cannot produce enough fish to feed ourselves. I cannot believe that the intellectual minds that we have in the ministry cannot work out programmes and plans to restock fish in our lakes and rivers. It is totally unbelievable. I do not render support to any argument to that effect.

Sir, first of all, one of the problems that the hon. Minister will face is that we have river and lake expanses which are extremely wide so that supervision of the lakes during the time of the fish ban is virtually impossible for your ministry staff. Consequently, they give up right from the beginning because they do not have enough money.

What I am going to suggest is very simple. There are certain dambos that are virtual fish ponds on their own. These are dambos that can be taken over by the State and used as breeding grounds for fish for our major lakes. It is easy because there is already some fish in there. All they need is supervision and ensuring that people do not use those particular dambos for fishing until the right time. When the fish stocks grow, it will be easy to transfer those into bigger lake expanses. That cannot be expensive by any imagination. It is just an issue of strategy and planning to ensure that we have enough fish.

Sir, I cannot believe that we are watching delicious fish like imbowa going to extinction. In the 1960s, when the foreigners were in this country, this is the fish which they called the germ of the Luapula lakes and rivers. It was extremely expensive. At that time, it was somewhere around £10 per fish. We are still buying imbowa at more than K45,000.00 for one fish. One would have thought that we have an inexhaustible resource that we can use.

Mr Chairperson, I undertook a visit to the Fisheries Department in Kafue. What I found was saddening. Apart from knowing the name of the fish species, they do not even know what it eats. This is forty-five years down the line. Surely, we should, at least, have that data or records of this fish and what it lives on while in the lake so that  are able to nurture it should need arise like it has now. How can we make an excuse that we are unable to tell what the fish species that we have in our country eat? Surely, that cannot be expensive. There is so much money going into Luapula under PLARD, if my memory serves me right. It is a huge amount of money, but most of it is going to capacity building. What is capacity building? Who are you training? You should go for people who are already fishermen. Those are the people you target. Do not start capacity building people who work for fishermen. It will not work. This is the problem this country has. You cannot train everyone to become one thing. Hon. Minister, you have a challenge before you and I am happy you are a lawyer. We think alike. Please, make the change. It is possible to restock our lakes and rivers. It is easy and it is not expensive. It is just a matter of will. I am passionate about this because I am talking about the livelihood of the people of the Luapula Province.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Give them their fish industry. It is not exhaustible like copper or cobalt, things that we dig out of the ground which will, one day, finish. If we do the job well in the fish industry alone, we can survive economically.

Sir, the bream that we have in Lake Bangweulu, where I come from, is one of the best breams in the world, and it is acknowledged as such in the world. Unfortunately, we are watching it being depleted. We are also watching people, who were catching huge breams, but are now catching little things like this and we are saying do not use mosquito nets. Can you not stop manufacturing things that make those people do it? Even those who are coming in our country to manufacture nets, surely, we can stop them from manufacturing certain sizes of nets. It does not take much. It just takes a ministerial statement that you are banning a certain size of nets from being used on our lakes. Make it a crime for anybody to use a mosquito net on our lakes. They will stop. We have to be pragmatic in the way we want to handle our economy and industries. We cannot allow a situation where the very things that we know we can leave as heritage for our future are being depleted while we watch or talk in our usual capacity building programmes and projects.

Incidentally, what upsets me the most is that there is more money towards capacity building than the money being put into the programmes to reactivate the fish industry. People are busy talking everyday while we are importing fish from China. We cannot allow that. This is our country and it is the only country we have on earth. We need to begin thinking about saving our souls and our future by protecting what God has given us already. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to take serious measures in this industry. Believe me, if you do it well, there will be billions of kwacha coming not only as taxes, but also in people’s pockets.

Sir, let me just say a little on livestock services and Luapula Province in general. For the purpose of the record, I would like to tell the hon. Minister that in the constituency where I come from, we feed Luapula with beef. In case people think that we import beef from anywhere else other than Chifunabuli, let them know that Chifunabuli supplies beef for the entire Luapula at the moment. Having said that, I would like to say that when you look at the green grass of Luapula …


Mr Mwansa: I took a friend of mine from the Southern Province when I was in the Ministry of Health. Just as we were entering Lubwe, I was asked to stop the vehicle. I did not know what the problem was whilst I stopped the vehicle. This gentleman got out of the vehicle, looked around and then he said, “Hon. Minister, there should be a 1,000 head of cattle here and they will be well looked after. There is enough food for them.” You could see the desire he had to transfer the animals he had in the Southern Province right into Luapula.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, what am I saying? It is simple. I am saying that the food for the animals is already in existence in Luapula. If you take the animals there, you will be amazed at how much we will get to do. The time we used to eat them is long gone. We have learnt the wealth of animals. Therefore, we are keeping them. I am increasing my little stock. The idea is to make sure that we compete with our dear colleagues where the animal rearing began from.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, the important thing is that we should not leave any part of our country which has the potential to develop lying idle. It is poor planning. Hon. Minister, the bottom line is that you should give capacity to people and watch so that, in the end, you are able to blame them for failure to increase production of what they already have. When people do not have, what do you blame them for? If you do not give people the capacity or ability, how do you blame them for remaining poor? All I am praying for and pleading with you, hon. Minister, is that we should not allow things to run as usual which is usually our problem. We just fall into step and we are told which way to go. This is never done. Look, let us experiment. We are better off making mistakes trying to do something than doing nothing because of the fear that we might fail. This country has the potential to develop and the responsibility to do so lies squarely on our shoulders.

Sir, it will be a shame when history is written and those of us who are sitted here will be asked the question as to what they did for our country and we will fail to answer. That will be sad for the country and for ourselves as individuals. Therefore, as you approach your ministry, I just plead with you to be innovative. Nothing stops you from being innovate and aggressive. Do what you want to do. If there are people standing in your way, expose them.

Mr Bwalya: Cut them!


Mr Mwansa: If you do not expose them, they will run you down. There are certain people who do not want to experiment because that is the way they were born. Leave them behind and move on. This country needs pragmatic and visionary leadership.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: You have the ability to do it. I pray that you stand up to the challenge and ensure that the little money which has been given to your ministry is used aptly for the intended purposes.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: I have about three more names of hon. Members on the list, but I can see more of you indicating. I will have Major Chizhyuka first.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, at the onset of corridor disease in 1989/1990, hundreds of thousands of cattle were decimated, mostly in the Southern Province and, later on, beyond.

However, it is a delight, Sir, that today, in 2009, we are talking about the new Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development. It is our prayer that this ministry succeeds because other countries that have taken a serious purview of livestock and fisheries, contribute significantly to the gross domestic product (GDP) of their countries.

The hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development is aware that herds of cattle were decimated due to corridor disease in the Southern Province. As a result, the numbers of cattle had gone to as low as 300,000 in the entire province. However, today, the statisticians of livestock will tell you that the Southern Province, alone has close to a million head of cattle. This is because of the cultural disposition of the people towards livestock development. In cattle rearing, they are able to develop their skills and keep their cattle amidst diseases. Figures like that are not easy to arrive at.

Mr Chairperson, our neighbour, Botswana, exports beef to the European Union and the nice markets of the world. The French, English, German and other people eat beef from our neighbouring country, Botswana. Yet, Botswana also had the contagious bovine pleural pneumonia (CBPP). In fact, CBPP in Botswana was more devastating than the one we had in the Western Province of Zambia. What did Botswana do? Botswana decided to be pragmatic. Botswana went into a slaughter and compensate mode. Out of a tune of £66.6 million British Pounds, they were able to resuscitate their cattle industry after they slaughtered most of the animals. Botswana now exports beef because the Government did not say that since its cattle had been decimated by CBPP, it was going to create a disease-free zone area by removing the Bushmen living in that area. They did not do that. Instead, they took the bull by its horns and dealt with the disease by creating cattle development centres within areas where people were culturally disposed to rearing cattle. As a result, their livestock exports alone, today, contribute 34 per cent of GDP.

Sir, the other day I was saying that some of us pushed hard to have this baby Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development created beyond this House. The other day, I was telling somebody in this ministry that if Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC were around, I was going to tell him that this is not the direction we were advocating for. Instead of sticking to our earlier plan, this new ministry has now decided to create disease-free zones on the Copperbelt and in the Central Province, leaving the provinces that are culturally and indigenously disposed to cattle rearing. It makes sense now because all you have to do is to go to Chisamba in the Central Province and visit the Zambeef Farm, but ask yourselves this question. Where does Zambeef get the cattle it exports to Angola from? The cattle come from Namwala, Mazabuka and the other parts of the Kafue Flats and being exported to other areas. Instead of listening to us who were advocating for the creation of this ministry, people who were sent to Parliament by the cattle-rearing people, it decided to go into a totally different direction. It has decided to help a people that are not indigenous to Zambia.

In most provinces where this ministry wants to develop disease-free zones, 90 per cent of the people that it will assist are foreigners. In the way we rear cattle, we do not rush to establishing a ranch and immediately start exporting. Firstly, you have to concentrate on building the stocks and once you have built sufficient stocks, then you can export cattle. I think the direction that Zambia has taken to establish disease-free zones in areas which are not predominantly cattle rearing, is wrong. It is a disservice to the people who have been advocating for the creation of this ministry in order to uplift the standards of their people.

If the grazier in the Western Province is added to that of the Southern Province and also added to the new desire of rearing cattle in Luapula, …

Mr Mukanga: Yes!

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … you will have a chance to grow the economy of this country, create more jobs and raise the standard of living of the people of Zambia.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: It is possible. I am saying it is possible because, the other day, when we were talking about how bad the roads are in the country, I told you what the people in Maala told me. They said, “Major, if the roads cannot be built, how much does an aircraft cost? Maybe, we can buy an aircraft to help us travel by air from Maala to Lusaka.” They have the capacity. If ordinary villagers can think along those lines, what would be wrong with the ministry, working together with the people of Zambia, particularly those in cattle-rearing areas such as the Luapula Valleys, Zambezi valley in the Western Province, the North-Western plains and the Southern Province on the Kafue Floods? If this is done, it will give you a chance, as a country, to get away from the usual problems associated with the rising and falling prices of copper.

This ministry has, for a start, decided to buy thirty-six vehicles. How can you start a ministry with thirty-six vehicles? Only last year, the Committee on Agricultural and Lands visited Botswana. The headquarters of the Ministry of Livestock Development of Botswana consists of only five people, according to that Parliamentary report and a few support staff here and there. It is that lean headquarters which is responsible for the export of beef from that country to the European Union. The Government of the Republic of Zambia’s new ministry responsible for livestock has thirty-six vehicles. What are these for?

There lies a huge problem. The other day, they were building five crush pens for fifty animals at some ranch being established in the Northern Province and I was saying, what kind of knowledge exists in that ministry? This report is being presented here. You are building crush pens for fifty and another for five. What kind of cattle business is that? He says that is the way it is now. Is that what the directors in the Veterinary Department are advising? One crush pen can cater for five to ten thousand head of cattle while these five crush pens are built for fifty animals.

If we do not constitute people with the acumen to understand what livestock development is, we shall be making one step forward and three steps backwards. Hon. Minister, you have an opportunity to redeem Zambia from economic quagmire through this ministry. There is no reason an arid country such as Botswana, which does not have a Luapula or a Western Province or Kafue Flats, can be contributing 34 per cent of the gross domestic product of its country through livestock development while we cannot.

I have said that the excuse of a cordon line is uncalled for but it is still being mentioned today. When are we going to start to be prudent? A cordon line is barbed wire erected from one end of the border to the other and you put guards to protect it. It has failed and initially it was being vandalised by the freedom fighters from Mozambique such as the Mozambique Peoples Liberation Army (MPLA) but now it is being vandalised by our own people. The world is becoming one and so you should engage the international community, the World Food Programme (WFP), Food Agriculture Organisation (FAO) and other international organisations. Can the Botswana authorities and the presidents of Zambia and Botswana meet so that we can have a common border policy on the control of disease for the two countries?

What is happening on the Angolan side is the same thing happening in Zambia and the wires you want to put up will not be necessary. You will not talk about the cordon line. In any case, the international community is interested in the beef industry. I was just reading somewhere, not too long ago, that the desire for beef from Africa in Europe is surging in leaps and bounds and so if you take a pragmatic approach to dealing with disease by shifting your disease-free zone to the Western and Southern provinces, you will have made a good beginning. For as long as you put that disease-free zone in the Central Province, you will continue getting the cattle from the Western and Southern provinces to Central Province so that the foreigners can add a few of the indigenous cattle and then be seen to be exporting. What is in it for Zambia as a black minister in a black African country? What will you be achieving to make life better for the person who was once what we call – we do not want to mention these terms these days.

It is better that your focus is on the people who vote for you and who have made it possible for you to become a hon. Minister.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this chance to contribute to the debate on this vote.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to request the hon. Minister that Kaputa, which is one of the largest districts and has a lot of water, be given priority in the fish industry. All the sardines we are eating in the country, including the ones in Siavonga, came from Lake Tanganyika in Kaputa District. What are we going to do to continue breeding Kapenta in Lake Kariba? We need experienced research officers to be brought on board to see what can be done for tomorrow so that more fish is bred for people to sustain their livelihood.

We have been told that fish stocks are depleting, but I would like to know the position of the ministry on this matter. The Mweru-wa-ntipa is drying up. What is the ministry doing to help the people to go into fish farming? People in Kaputa do not have the capacity to go into this venture and so why can the ministry not give them soft loans as was done during the time when we had the Agriculture Finance Company? This company was giving loans to crop farmers and fishermen but, today, we are only giving fertiliser support to farmers. What about the fisherman? How do you restrain a fisherman from using a mosquito net when he wants to have even the smallest fish to sell for his livelihood?

Mr Chairperson, when are you going to consider boosting fish farming so that even the poor people can start fish farming to earn a living in order to enable them take their children to school? The people in my constituency are fishermen by occupation. We have the Nsumbu National Park which has taken up a lot of land for crop and fish farming for the people in that area. How are you going to support the people in that area since their land has been taken by the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources?

Mr Chairperson, from 1972 to 1975, when this ministry was under game and fisheries, we had very powerful directors who visited every fishing point. If the hon. Minister checked the records, he would find names such as Mr Bwalinde. It is because of such people that we knew about Chilanga at the time. I have known about Chilanga today. I can tell you that I am a water bird and fisherman by birth. Everybody in the family is where they are through fishing. We were fishing in Lusenga using a Tilley lamp but, today, the minimum equipment in fishing must be K100 million worth. Where are the people going to get such kind of money from? Since they cannot get the expensive equipment, people have opted to go for fishing nets with a small mesh.

Mr Chairperson, the standard mesh to catch fish must be 8mm but, today, we have accepted 4mm mesh for fishing and the fishermen are catching the little Kapenta which is due for breeding in shallow waters. I would like the Director of Fisheries to challenge me on this one because I am simply stating what has been the practice. If, at that time, they were using 4mm mesh nets for fishing, it would not have been possible to export Kapenta from Kasaba Bay to Lake Kariba. The sardines in Siavonga came from Kasaba Bay and this was done under the leadership of Dr Kendle who was a research officer at the time. Which research officer is going to help your ministry to increase the programmes of fish farming?

Mr Sing’ombe: Bashwile Kaufela!

Mr Sikazwe: We used to have fish guards who could go round the lakes getting the tonnage of the fish which was caught but, today you have only one fish guard in Nsumbu where there are more than 200 lean nets. How can this person manage to control the fishermen? The fishermen have now gone into the deep waters of the national park and even the breeding areas have been affected because there is no manpower to control this, hon. Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am trying to give more information to the hon. Minister. Even the director has never visited that area from the time I have been there. I know a lot about Kaputa District because I have been going there even before I became Member of Parliament. Lake Mweru-wa-ntipa is drying up. Who is responsible for removing the sand dunes from Mofwe River so that the waters can be flowing into Mweru-wa-ntipa? If they see it drying up, why can they not give support to the people who stay around that area so that they start growing fingerlings to maintain the population of fish? Fishing is one of the biggest sources of income in this country, even surpassing cattle.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, only a few people can have cattle but, with fishing, everyone can catch fish. I can use a hook and, by putting it in water, I can pull out a fish.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, what is easier between rearing cattle and fishing?


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I want to point out to the hon. Minister that there is the issue of marine pollution which I have not heard in the policy statement. The United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) conducted bio-diversity survey and research which revealed that there is a lot of pollution in our lakes and rivers. For example, you cannot eat dry fish from the Kafue River today. What are your people doing at Kasaka Training School? I bought fish from Kafue and we ate it with my family, but there was the scent of fuel in it. How are we tackling that problem? The marine engines are running on the waters and discharging petrol and oil. So, the water is polluted. What is your position as a ministry?

Mr Lubinda: Bauze!

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Talk about geo-thermal.

Mr Sikazwe:  Mr Chairperson, I want to let you know that I do not just know about geo-thermal. I know a lot more.

Hon. Members: Hammer! Hammer!


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I want to inform the ministry so that they know how to can integrate my people. There is the Lake Tanganyika Integrated Programme which is supposed to be run by two ministries: Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, and Livestock and Fisheries Development. If the Department of Fisheries is part of that programme, they can challenge me. They picked the wrong people to represent the communities.

Ms Lundwe: Kalipa boyi.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, try to involve the stakeholders because they are the people who understand things better. Do not politicise our offices. I am giving you this information as a Member of Parliament. So, if you are not getting it from your technocrats, you were not going to know anything about Lake Tanganyika, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: … and yet, when the projects come you put me at the back.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Sikazwe: That is a disappointing scenario because when you go for seminars you mislead people by giving them wrong information, hon. Minister.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear! Bauze.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, can you involve those of us who live in the areas where there are rivers.


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, my hon. Minister can remember that he had a misfortune on the pontoon on the Zambezi River and that day I was in Kafue Constituency. The aluminium boats you have bought are not ideal for Lake Tanganyika. I have advised my men not to use them because all of them will die.


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister can agree with me that in his constituency, the boats have capsized in the river within the twinkling of an eye.


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, it happened in his constituency. I am not trying to tell lies. I was there that day. I even mentioned to the hon. Minister of Health who was then Minister of Works and Supply not to buy such types of boats. Where are the fibre boats which are ideal for the lake? Those aluminium boats you bought are not good for deep lakes such as Tanganyika. The wave is too big and too strong for the boats that are so light. So, how are you going to police the area?

Mr Sing’ombe: Eyo mwashitile ku China boyi.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I want to address the Director of Fisheries that if he has been visiting Lake Tanganyika from …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Member, you are addressing the Director of Fisheries.

Mr Sikazwe: Through you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister is here. You address the hon. Minister.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I want the Director of Fisheries to understand that he should not be misleading the hon. Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: Do not attack the Director of Fisheries here.


The Deputy Chairperson: You are addressing the House and the hon. Minister is here. So, he will talk to the director.

Mr Sikazwe: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. What I am trying to put forward is the type of boats they have boat. The boats are a risk to our officers. The types of boats are not ideal for lakes such as Tanganyika and Mweru-wa-ntipa because those are deep waters and the waves are very strong. Besides, they have just bought one boat with one fisheries officer. How can he work? Please, employ more people. We are happy that you have employed a lot of camp officers, according to the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. Let us revert to the old system of fisheries development officers. Should we put them under the District Agricultural Co-ordinator (DACO)? The DACO’s office is just interested in agricultural matters.

Hon. Opposition Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: They have given little or no attention to the Department of Fisheries.

Hon. Opposition Members: Exactly. Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: For example, the DACO in Mungwi was a fisheries development officer in Nsumbu. What do you expect him to do in relation to agriculture? Let us do things accordingly. Let us bring the fisheries development officers who are in the books of the Director of Fisheries in Chilanga because they knew what they were doing.

Hon. Opposition Member: New point.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I have dwelled much on fish because I was trying to remind the hon. Minister to be aware that fish is very important and it is in the same food group as meat. The people of Kaputa District have just resorted to small-scale farming because they do not have anything else to do. You have put them under pressure because they are just looking at the waters but there is no fish in the river.

Hon. Opposition Members: More points.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, Let me talk about livestock farming. A buffalo in the forest and cattle in the village look alike.


Mr Sikazwe: Buffaloes and cattle eat the same grass. Nsumbu National Park is behind Mweru-wa-ntipa. You can imagine, Mpweto is near Lake Mweru-wa-ntipa and Chienge, but they are rearing a lot of cattle there. What can stop us from rearing cattle in Kaputa District? Can you consider us for livestock when you are restocking cattle? We have enough land where buffaloes graze and there are no tsetse flies. So, we need you to consider us for livestock farming. You should not just go to Namwala or Bweengwa, no. We are also interested in diversifying.


Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, I am very delighted to have this chance to talk to the hon. Minister, through you, that the Department of Fisheries must be considering the new project called Fisheries Management Areas (FM). I am sure it is there in the new Act. We need to support it. There is an investor who is growing fingerlings on the lake now but the problem is the expenses he is incurring. He is doing fish management but he is not protected by the Department of Fisheries because the area has not been demarcated as a fish management area. When it is given that status and the Government supports that investor, even local people must be part of the security of the investment in that area. With one fisheries officer, how are we going to monitor the programme of our investor? That investor is saying that he does not want people to continue suffering. So, he doing this for the community, but he is not given support.

The Department of Fisheries must attach greater importance to Mpulungu which was a training school such as Kasaka and Sinazongwe. That is why there are a lot of people from Kashikishi in Kafue. It is because they used to go there for training at Kasaka.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister must employ a lot of fisheries officers to be attached to Kaputa District in particular so that we police the fish ban on the Lakes Mweru-wa-ntipa and Tanganyika which is effective in the next two weeks.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this opportunity to debate this vote. Let me also join other progressive hon. Members of Parliament who have emphasised, to the hon. Minister, that this is a very important ministry.

  According to the debate of various hon. Members of the House, the hon. Minister should be able to summarise that this is a very important ministry. The conversional wisdom inherent in the creation of this ministry is that, first of all, it should be one of the major sources of revenue. Secondly, it is that this ministry should be used to economically empower the Zambian people. These are the key factors which may have persuaded the powers that be to create this ministry. It is now up to the hon. Minister to translate the words of the appointing authority into action. In fact, we demand that the hon. Minister and his managers in the ministry be very aggressive in carrying out their mandate. No stone should be left unturned in transforming this ministry into one of the major sources of revenue.

I would like to give an example of the economies of Nordic countries, which are anchored on the fish industry. However, these are the same countries that have been supporting us economically. Can we not be ashamed of that? The economies of countries such as Sweden and Norway depend on the fish industry, but they are able to offload a lot of money to developing countries like Zambia. Why can we not do likewise by putting emphasis on livestock and fisheries development so that we will be able to export meat and fish products to other countries and earn a lot of money? This would empower the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning financially.

We are tired of excuses such as that action will be taken on certain projects when funds are available. We are now creating avenues for sources of revenue for the Government. This is a window of opportunity which the Government should utilise to generate a lot of revenue so that when the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning presents the next National Budget, he will be able to do it confidently, majestically and so on. We should do away with being dependent on other people because if this syndrome of dependency is enhanced, we will not be respected as a country. Therefore, the hon. Members on your right should make use of these ideas we are giving them free of charge. The Ministry of Finance and National Planning should be strengthened by giving it a lot of money through fisheries and livestock activities.

If we look at our lakes such as, for example, Lake Bangweulu, we used to get a lot of fish from this lake. When we were young, we were bathing with fish, so to speak.


Mr Kasongo: Oh yes, we were bathing with fish. The moment you jumped into the water, you would see a lot of fish coming close to you. As such, we used to engage in fishing at a very young age and this can still be done. We should raise the standard of living of our people through these same activities.

Since this ministry will be able to contribute to the Treasury, I am sure that the generous hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning will give it the biggest share in the next Budget so that it can strengthen its departments. Right now, what has been apportioned to it with regard to the fisheries and livestock departments, is nothing to talk about. This is simply because it has not contributed even a single ngwee to the Treasury. We have to change the system. We now want to see that this ministry becomes the major contributor of funds to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

We told the hon. Minister, from the very beginning, that we welcomed the creation of this ministry. In fact, we made it clear that the hon. Minister should not sleep from the day this ministry was created. He was supposed to sit down with his managers and get ideas from a lot of people so that this ministry is transformed into a money spinner. This is what we told the hon. Minister. Unfortunately, a few months down the line, the hon. Minister is still struggling. Why is it so? Are we supposed to give him another mandate for him to understand that his ministry is supposed to make money for this country? He has been appointed as hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development so that he empowers Zambians economically through this ministry. Who else is going to give him that mandate if not the President, who has already done so and we have supported this. So, what is the hon. Minister waiting for?

Mr Chairperson, in a nutshell, I would like to say that the onus is on the hon. Minister to ensure that he transforms this ministry into one of the most important ministries capable of generating revenue for this country and as a tool to empower Zambians economically.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kasoko (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you and I will be brief. I have looked through the Yellow Book and this ministry has not been catered for very well. The money which has been accorded to Vote 88 is very little. Nonetheless, I just want to make an appeal to the hon. Minister with regard to animal diseases. In the last five or seven years that I have now been in the House, we have talked a lot about animal diseases in Mumbwa District. Animals are dying everyday in this district.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Kasoko: Animals are dying because of lack of dip tanks. We only have one dip tank in Mwembeshi Constituency, but we have been approving money in this House for the building of more dip tanks and water dams. To this day, these dip or water tanks have not been created in Nangoma, Mumbwa or Mwembeshi. When talking about animal diseases in Southern Province, we should also include Mumbwa District in Central Province because animals from Southern Province cross into this district. When there is a ban in Southern Province, people steal animals from this province and pass through Mwembeshi and Mumbwa to get to Lusaka. The former hon. Ministers of Agriculture and Co-operatives are aware of that. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to help us. Many of our farmers in Mwembeshi depend on cattle for their livelihood, but these cattle are dying everyday.

Mr Chairperson, on the route going to Mwembeshi Satellite, along Mumbwa Road, there are a lot of bush animals being looked after by our foreign friends. In the past, these animals were kept away from cattle. However, nowadays, these wild animals are kept just about a kilometre away from villages where there are cattle. Wild animals have a lot of tsetse flies and as long as they are not kept away from domesticated animals, the tsetse flies will continue killing our cattle. So this ministry should see to it that wild animals are kept far away from cattle. Otherwise, we will start killing them.


Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, another issue relates to the treatment of our cattle. Veterinary officers are not doing enough.

   In Mumbwa, at these training institutes, we also have farms. Talking of Mukulaikwa Training Institute, we had more than sixty-five workers. For instance, we had officers like doctors and people who were looking after animals. Today, we only have five workers and all the animals were sold and people have started settling on these farms. We have reported this matter to the Government but no Government official has been to the site to check on what is happening. We still need these institutes because that is where our farmers were training from.

The other point is about animal restocking. Hon. Minister, you need to change the way things are done in that area. Mr Chairperson, when it is time for distributing animals for restocking, animals in the northern part of the province are distributed by the hon. Members of Parliament themselves and yet in Mumbwa, those animals are distributed by the agricultural extension officers through the constituency officials of the MMD. If you go in the constituency and people will tell you nothing but the truth.

Ms Changwe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Ms Changwe: Mr Chairperson, I am extremely perplexed by this hon. Member of Parliament who is giving a wrong and invalid statement which is misleading to this House and the nation. Is this hon. Member in order to state that we, hon. Members of Parliament from Central Province, are distributing cattle? Sir, I need your serious ruling because his statement is totally false. Can you kindly rule on that, Sir?


The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister has adequately debated her point of order. So, you can continue, taking into account her point of order.

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, Mukulaikwa Training Institute is another white elephant. It has also gone to the dogs and has never been rehabilitated although money is being approved …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Be parliamentary, do not use unparliamentary words. You may continue.

Mr Kasoko: This institute has not been rehabilitated even though we have kept approving money for it year in and year out in the Yellow Book. I am urging the hon. Minister to come with me to Mukulaikwa Training Institute and see what I am talking about.

We also have the Shibuyunji Block where we have a sub-Boma for Mumbwa District. Sir, from the time UNIP was voted out of power, this training institute has never been rehabilitated. The same goes for Kapyanga Block which is equally big. There are houses and offices there belonging to the ministry which are dilapidated. We have only three people there. Houses are there, but there are no people to occupy them.

Therefore, I am appealing to the hon. Minister to come with me and see what I am talking about.

Sir, at one point, we were told by the people on your right that they have many professors and doctors. I want to state that here, also, we have doctors and professors. Even this year, we had two people who graduated from the university. Therefore, if those people are professors …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Hon. Kasoko! I wonder what that has to do with livestock. Can you continue, please?

Mr Kasoko: Sir, I want to prove to you that those people are neither professors nor doctors. If they have documents showing proof of their education, I think they got them through the window.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: If they are saying that they have doctors in their group, I am sure these diseases that we are talking about would have been wiped out a long time ago.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: If their thinking was okay, I am sure we were not going to be in the same furrow we are going through. If they have professors in their group, why can they not find an answer for us?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: If they are proper doctors, why can they not find the answer for us? If they are saying people from this side are not educated, why can they not find a good answer for us if they are educated?

Hon. Government Member: New point!

Mr Kasoko: That is a new point, Sir. You are just the same as us here. In fact, we are even better than you because even I am also a doctor.


Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, I am sure my colleagues have talked about fish. We have a river known as Kafue River where the weed has covered the water. This weed started when Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) was opened. Before that plant was set up, there was no weed in the river. To date, those people with degrees have failed to find an answer on how to remove that weed.

Mrs Musokotwane: Shame!

Mr Kasoko: My appeal to the hon. Minister is that he should also look into this issue because people from Mwembeshi, Nangoma and Mumbwa also want to enjoy the fish from Kafue River.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I just want to invite the hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development to come with me to Mwembeshi so that I can show him what I am talking about. This includes those people who have been receiving these animals for the animal restocking exercise.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, we are very indebted to the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this particular vote. I am gratified with the support that has been extended to us. In brief, we have taken note of the cardinal issues that have been mentioned by all those who contributed, specifically with regard to Hon. Hachipuka who spoke about the need for us to be clear on the numbers we have in terms of having some sort of census on statistics related to our ministry. I think that issue has been taken note of and officials from the ministry are in the House. I can see them nodding their heads.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We do not recognise officials here. Just proceed.

Mr Machila: We have taken note of those comments from Hon. Hachipuka with regard to the census and so on and the need to create targets and also to involve commercial and peasant farmers in our endeavours.

The hon. Member for Katombola, Mrs Musokotwane, lamented the issue of diseases in her area, particularly in Kazungula. This, again, is an issue that we consider to be a priority and I wish to assure her that it will certainly get the due attention that it needs. One of the issues on our agenda is to deal decisively with issues of livestock diseases and, in particular, in Southern and Western provinces. I have also taken note of her lamentations on the lack of an abattoir. She urged the ministry to construct one at Mwambi. Again, we shall see what we can do to assist in terms of encouraging the private sector to participate in such a venture, assuming that it is viable and if she, too, can consider establishing an abattoir in a certain locality as soon as she has the resources available.

The hon. Member for Matero, Mrs Sinyangwe, spoke of the need to create breeding centres and so on and so forth. This is an issue that I touched upon in the policy statement and one that has to be addressed. With regard to having a livestock support programme similar to the Fertiliser Input Support Programme, I am not at liberty to make a commitment in that regard. However, I am sure that the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has taken note as we are sure that this issue will probably arise time and again as we go forward.

The hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, Mr Nkombo, spoke of laxity at some of the check points. Again, this is an issue that we have discussed with the officers in the department and also with the Ministry of Home Affairs who have been assisting in policing some of these localities for us to strengthen the checks and controls. With regard to the Zambia Institute of Animal Health, a provision has been made in the budget to build up on the infrastructure and enhance the performance of the institute.

There is also a serious issue that the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central mentioned with regard to cattle rustling. This is an issue, again, which we have discussed with the Ministry of Home Affairs. I am sure the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central is aware that as a result of the discussions, the hon. Minister of Home Affairs dispatched the Inspector-General of Police to the Southern Province to meet with the various stakeholders. There are initiatives that are being taken up together with the Zambia National Farmers’ Union to enhance the policing exercise in the affected areas. I have noted the suggestion made to make cattle rustling a non-bailable offence, but that is an issue, again, for consideration. What we need to do is, maybe, strengthen the existing legislation and make it more punitive in this regard.

The hon. Member for Chifunabuli, Mr Mwansa, who is also a fisherman, spoke...


Mr Machila: ... at length about the depletion of the fish stocks in Lake Bangweulu and the need for us to restock lakes and rivers in the province. I wish to assure the House that this is under consideration. I have noted the suggestion to utilise dambos as possible fish ponds for breeding purposes considering the challenges that are faced in the efforts to restock the much larger natural water bodies.

The hon. Member for Namwala, Major Chizhyuka, again, lamented the issue of the disease-free zones which are intended to be established in the Central and Lusaka provinces and parts of the Copperbelt Province. We have had an occasion to discuss this and it is not intended to end with these particular provinces. It has been suggested that the quickest impact could be made by utilising these areas in view of the natural boundaries that are already there which would necessitate that we do not incur huge expenditure on infrastructure right from the outset. I wish to assure Hon. Major Chizhyuka and other hon. Members from the Southern and Western provinces, in particular, that those provinces are very much part and parcel of our plans in terms of the disease-free zones. We already have a provision in the budget for Southern and Western provinces relating to disease control which actually exceeds the amounts of moneys that are going to be made available for the initial disease-free zones that have been spoken about for Lusaka, Central and Copperbelt provinces. We welcome the comments and observations that he made and expect and anticipate that we shall be working very closely with him and others. We have a keen interest in this particular area as we move forward with the agenda of the ministry.

The hon. Member for Chimbamilonga’s interest with regard to fisheries in Kaputa District has been taken note of. We will, again, expect to work closely with him as we move forward in the implementation of the programmes that we have in this particular area and the Northern Province at large.

In winding up, Mr Chairperson, I have noted the comments, again, made by the hon. Member for Bangweulu with regard to what needs to be done particularly in areas surrounding Lake Bangweulu where he used to bath with fish...


Mr Machila: ... and we would hope that we can eventually get back to a level of restocking where he can return to bathing with fish in Lake Bangweulu.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Mwembeshi, Mr Kasoko, made comments with regard to animal diseases in Mumbwa District. I think what has already been said to Hon. Musokotwane is equally applicable to Hon. Kasoko and we expect that we have an opportunity to work closely with him, too, as we address the problems in that particular area. I would also just assure him that there is currently a programme to rehabilitate the facility at Mukulaika and a centre is being built as I speak.

In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, I want to thank hon. Members who contributed to this vote. I appreciate their comments and support and look forward to continuing working with them through the year when we have an opportunity to implement the programmes as presented.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 80/01 – (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development - Headquarters – K8,612,119,073).

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 960, Programme 2, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K715,356,275 and Activity 02 – Inspections: Ministers and Permanent Secretaries - K280,600,000. How many Permanent Secretaries are in this ministry? What kind of tours are they going to take that will need K280 million per annum?

The Deputy Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development (Mr Mulonga): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 01 - Office Administration – K715,356,275 and Activity 02 – Inspections: Ministers and Permanent Secretaries – K280,600,000, this is an activity-based budget and any project inspections taken by the Minister, Deputy Minister and Permanent Secretary in the country have to be budgeted for.

Thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.


VOTE 88/02 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Human Resources and Administration – K5,716,389,933).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 10, Activity 04 – Staff Development and Training – K 3,200,000 and Unit 4 Programme 5, Activity 01- Staff Training – K147,600,000. I observe provisions for staff development and training on both activities. Is this not duplication?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, Unit 3, Programme 10, Activity 04 – Staff Development and Training – K 3,200,000 caters for a specific training need for management packaging, whereas Unit 4, Programme 5, activity 01- Staff Training – K147,600,000 is for general staff training.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 88/03 – (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development – Policy and Planning Department - K86,922,554,256).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3, Activity 02 – Livestock Development Trust (LDT) – K500,000,000. What is involved in this trust which gets K500,000,000 when colleges like Mpika and Monze only get K250,000,000?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, this is the body which is supporting livestock institutions like Palabana. We have a trust in Mochipapa. It is a body that is supporting these other institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: May I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Preparation and Consolidation of budgets and annual work plans – K650,780,170. What kind of work is involved that would gobble this much?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, being a new ministry, we would like to involve all stakeholders in the consultations for the preparation of the annual work plan and the budget. In doing this, we go into the provinces and districts.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 88/05 - (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development – Livestock Development Department – K6,435,488,300).

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 12, Activity 01 – Livestock Selection – K100,000,000. I would like to know what they will be selecting that will cost K100,000,000.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, this K100,000,000 is provided for the purchase of the breeding stock, fuel and lubricants and payment of allowances for those to identify, select and purchase the breeding stock for the centres.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 88/20 – (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development – Southern Province – Provincial Livestock and Fisheries Co-ordinating Office − K10,468,025,022).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 5, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Livestock Disease Data Collection and Analysis – K15,948,620. I would like to find out whether this amount of money would cater for such a big province like the Southern Province.

Sir, under Unit 5, Programme 10, Activity 02 – Livestock Disease Control Extension – K19,573,306. I would also like to find out what is involved in this activity because this amount of money is not enough for this large province.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, this amount is meant for the collection of data and analysis so that we have a database for livestock disease in the province.

With regard to Programme 10, Activity 02 − Livestock Disease Control Extension − K19,573,306, I would like to inform the House that these are just extensions, but we have the main programme where we are controlling the diseases. After that control, we have to extend other measures. Therefore, we can add the two to give us the exact total amount that we are going to spend.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 7, Programme 2, Activity 04 – PMEC – K10,000,000. What is this activity?

Mr Mulonga: This is an activity meant for the promotion of fisheries control centres.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, on page 1021 …

Mr Chairperson: Order! We are not yet there.

Mr Sing’ombe: Thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 88/21 – (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development – Southern Province – District Livestock and Fisheries Co-ordinating Office – K6,072,936,377).

Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 9, Activity 06 – Construction of Dip Tank – K40,000,000. May I know how many dip tanks are scheduled for construction from this amount of money?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, we are saying construction of dip tank, which means it is only one. This is because our concentration is not in areas where we do not have a lot of tsetse flies. That is why there are a few dip tanks. However, we are concentrating on areas which have a lot of diseases that are caused by tsetse flies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Sir, as a province, we would like to know where this dip tank is going to be constructed.

Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 9, Programme 8, Activity 04 – Construction of Livestock Service Centres – K290,000,000. Kazungula District would be interested to know where these centres are going to be constructed.

Secondly, may I also have clarification on Unit 9, Programme 10, Activity 03 – Rehabilitation of Fisheries Market Shed at Mambova – K70,000,000. We would also like to know which shed the ministry is going to rehabilitate at Mambova.

Mr Mulonga: Sir, the construction of the Livestock Service Centre is in Kazungula District, but for the actual place, I think, the stakeholders must have discussed it and it should be at the district level.

With regard to Programme 10, Activity 03 – Rehabilitation of the Fisheries Markets Shed at Mambova − K70, 000,000, the specific point at which the shed will be built is Mambova and we are going to use this allocation.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I do not think you are listening because there is too much talking. Please, give me chance to talk.

Vote 88/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 88/29 ─ (Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries Development ─ North ─ Western  Province ─District Livestock and Fisheries Co-ordinating Office ─ K3, 250,626,131.00).

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on Unit 1, Programme 10, Activity 03 – Capture Fisheries Management – K23,198,169. Can we have details on this activity?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, this is to do with natural bodies, including the fish ban activities.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 88/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/31 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/32 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 88/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 31─ (Ministry of Justice ─ K316,463,152,148.00).

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, once again, I am grateful to you for the opportunity to deliver a policy statement on the budget for the Ministry of Justice.

Sir, as you may be aware, the Ministry of Justice exists to provide efficient and effective…


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Honestly, I cannot believe this. The Acting Leader of Government Business in the House is delivering a policy statement and I find it ironical that it is hon. Members from my right who are talking. This is not good. You must give chance to the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House so that he delivers his policy statement without any interference.

Continue, hon. Minister, please.

Dr Mwansa: Sir, as you may be aware, the Ministry of Justice exists to provide efficient and effective legal services to Government related institutions and the public in general. The Ministry of Justice is, therefore, there to facilitate the administration of justice and help promote the observance of the rule of law, human rights and good governance.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to briefly discuss the departments under the ministry and activities they will undertake.

Human Resources and Administration

Sir, the Ministry of Justice will, by the end of this year, endeavour to revise structures in the Ministry of Justice so that it can have an expanded structure of lawyers, especially at the entry level. The ministry continues to receive a lot of applications from lawyers who would like to work for the Ministry of Justice.

Attorney-General’s Department

Legislative Drafting Department

This department will continue to work closely with the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) by providing drafting and research services to the conference, in accordance with the provisions of the National Constitutional Conference Act, Number 7 of 2007. The department shall continue to render services and draft various laws for the country. Further, the revision of the laws of Zambia is in progress. However, due to logistical challenges, the launch of the revised edition, which was scheduled for the end of the second quarter of 2009, will now be done sometime next year.

Civil Litigation, Debt Collection and Prerogative of Mercy Department

Mr Chairperson, this department will continue to institute and defend civil actions against the State in accordance with the law. It will also continue to provide legal opinions and advice to the President of Zambia on the exercise of the Prerogative of Mercy in accordance with Article 59 of the Constitution.

Mr Chairperson, the department has now taken over the administration of the compensation and awards activity, a budget line and payments which were under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. This has increased the work load for the ministry.

International Law and Agreements

Sir, the Ministry of Justice has the mandate of advising the Government on various international agreements and treaties and participating in negotiations for both bilateral and multilateral levels. This will continue to be done through the International Law and Agreements Department.

Directorate of Public Prosecutions

Mr Chairperson, this department is responsible for all public and criminal prosecutions as provided for in Article 58 of the Constitution. The vision of the department is to provide an independent, effective, efficient and fair prosecution service for the benefit of the Zambian people.

Mr Chairperson, in addition to continuing with its decentralisation programme of deploying more State Advocates outside Lusaka, the Director of Public Prosecutions will, inter alia, review the selection criteria for public prosecutors, design a training programme for public prosecutions and establish a law library in each of the provincial offices, starting in 2010.

Administrator General and Official Receiver Department

Mr Chairperson, this department will, in 2010, continue with the filling up of vacant positions and training of lawyers in receivership and liquidation and inheritance law. Furthermore, public sensitisation will continue to be offered through various programmes. The department has been looking for office accommodation in Livingstone in readiness for opening of new offices there. This activity will continue in 2010.

Grant Aided Institutions

Mr Chairperson, the following are the grant-aided institutions under the Ministry of Justice:

(i) Legal Aid Board  

The Legal Aid Board will continue to provide legal aid to the less privileged citizens of Zambia, notably, those with insufficient means to hire the services of private legal practitioners. 
The law has now established a Legal Aid Fund to be paid to the legal practitioners engaged in provision of legal services to the indigent. To this effect, the Legal Aid Board, in conjunction with the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ), is working tirelessly to ensure that modalities of how these funds shall be administered are put in place so that there is wider access to justice for our people.

In order to underscore the importance that the Government attaches to the Legal Aid Fund, it has been decided that the fund will stand on its own in the 2010 estimates of expenditure.

(ii) Zambia Law Development Commission

This institution will continue to undertake review, reform and the simplification of the law. To carry out its Statutory Mandate, the Zambia Law Development Commissions will require funding.

(iii) Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education

This institute will, in 2010, continue to provide national, regional and international post-graduate legal studies and training in legislative drafting as well in other diploma courses. Following the enactment of the Zambia Institute of Advanced Legal Education (ZIALE) Act No. 19 of 2009, students from other universities other than the University of Zambia (UNZA) will be eligible for admission to the institution.

(iv) Judicial Complaints Authority

This institution shall continue to receive and investigate complaints from the general public concerning malpractices that may be committed by judicial officers.
(v) Governance Secretariat

The Governance Secretariat will continue with its role of monitoring the governance programme, conducting research and advising the Government generally on matters of governance and human rights. Plans are underway to turn the secretariat into a fully fledged Government department as opposed to its present status of a project within the Ministry of Justice.

Key Governance Programmes  

The Ministry will continue with the two key governance programmes namely; the Constitution Review Process and the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM).

Mr Chairperson, on the Constitution Review Process, although the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) has made tremendous progress, there remains a lot to be done such as:

(a) the translation of the initial Draft Constitution and Report of  the NCC 
             into major local languages;

(b) the publication of the Draft Constitution and Report of the NCC for public 

(c) consideration of public comments by the committees; and

 (d) the meeting of the NCC to consider and adopt amendments, if any, to the 
                         initial Draft Constitution and Report of the NCC, following considerations  
                         of public comments by the committee.
It is in view of the foregoing that the Government has extended the Constitution-making process by four months. The Government is, however, still committed to coming up with a new, durable and people-driven Constitution before the 2011 General Elections.

Mr Chairperson, Zambia has, so far, engaged well on the African Peer Review Mechanism (APRM) process. The notable activities undertaken are hosting of the Country Support Mission for the APRM from 23rd to 25th February, 2009, the on-going sensitisation strategy on the APRM and the engagement of technical research institutions in the four thematic areas of democracy and political governance, social economic development, corporate governance and economic governance and management.

The National Governing Council prepared a communication strategy whose theme is “Making the APRM Process Visible”. This is a multi-media campaign plan to sensitise the nation on the APRM initiative and the steps involved in the self-assessment process. The Council will, therefore, continue with the countrywide sensitisation of the APRM in order to empower Zambians with the information that they can use to engage in the process.

Mr Chairperson, I now urge this august House to support the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Justice.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to add my voice in supporting this particular vote. I would like to thank the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House for presenting the vote very well.

Mr Chairperson, from the outset, I would like to declare an interest in that most of the people who work at this ministry, and in this particular field, are people I know. It is for this reason that I feel very passionate about this particular vote and about the Ministry of Justice and the legal profession in general.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. MMD Members: Hon. Kambwili!

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Member, you are not helping us. Please, consult quietly. We have no problem when you consult quietly. It is only when it disturbs my hearing that I come in. 

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Sikota, SC.: Mr Chairperson, it is for this reason that I feel very passionate about this vote and the people who are actually in this particular profession and field.

Mr Chairperson, I must state that I am very hurt by the fact that there have been so many attacks on the Judiciary and this profession. I think that I must lay some of the blame on the Executive. The Judiciary needs to be protected by the Executive. By the nature of its work, the Judiciary cannot defend itself. Therefore, when there are unwarranted attacks, the Executive must come to the aid of the Judiciary. I pray that they will become more proactive in this sense and start protecting the Judiciary more.

Mr Chairperson, today, everybody - even our mothers - finds that it is easy to attack the Judiciary and they are doing it day in and day out. You will find that one day we condemn the Judiciary, then praise it the following day and condemn it again the day after. This shows how unfairly the Judiciary has been treated. There is need for consistency.

Mr Chairperson, by stating that the Judiciary should be protected, I am not saying that all is well. There is certainly still a lot that needs to be done even though there has been great improvement. We no longer hear of exhibits disappearing as often as they used to. We no longer hear of case records going missing at the rate that they used to go missing. This shows that there have been some positive developments. Indeed, there are problems and some of these problems are the delays in some of the judgments that come through and too many cases being listed on a particular day for a particular judge. Therefore, the Ministry of Justice should certainly look into these problems.

 For those who feel that the Judiciary is lacking or is corrupt, there are certain institutions under the Ministry of Justice that they can turn to in order to lodge their complaints or seek redress.

For example, under the Ministry of Justice, there is the Judicial Complaints Authority. In fact, we, in the House, approve the commissioners who go to the Judicial Complaints Authority which is manned by very good men and women of high integrity. If, indeed, there were any complaints, this would be the place to go and lodge such complaints.

There is also the African Pear Review Mechanism that has been alluded to by the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House. This, too, is a legitimate avenue where those who have legitimate complaints against the Judiciary or in the area of governance can actually go rather than going to the mountain tops to make a lot of noise. These are the areas where we should be addressing our complaints and channelling our complaints.

Sir, I am glad that under the governance part of the budget, there has been an increase from K15,466,300,500.00 to K36,318,500,500.00. This represents more than a hundred per cent increase and it shows that, in fact, the Government is concerned about governance and ensuring that matters relating to governance are adequately dealt with.

Sir, there is also the Legal Practitioners Disciplinary Committee for those who feel that not all is right in the profession. Again, I am glad that there seems to be more than 100 per cent increase in the amounts allocated there. In the previous year, it was K49,898,835.00 and it has gone up to a K111,287,909.00. Again, it shows the willingness of the ministry to deal with cleaning up any miscreants that may be in the profession. Being somebody in the profession, let me hasten to add that these are very few because most of the miscreants have been weeded out. It is because of this consistency of weeding out the miscreants, allocating enough resources to things like the African Pear Review Mechanism and the Judicial Complaints Authority that you find that Zambia is not doing too badly when it comes to corruption.

Sir, over the past few weeks, I have been hearing so many people shouting about how corrupt the Judiciary is and so forth. Everybody and their mothers, some even with their pets, have been making this kind of allegation.

Major Chizhyuka: Including their mothers?

Mr Sikota, SC.: Including their pets.


Mr Sikota: When you look at the facts on the ground, you quickly realise that these, perhaps, are mere emotional outbursts which are not founded on any empirical evidence. The reason I say this is that Transparency International carry out the Corruption Index every year and if you look at the Annual Corruption Index for 2009 from Transparency International which has come out today, Zambia is not doing extremely badly. Amongst the African countries, we have done quite well. Over all, we are number ninety-seven out of 180 countries. Therefore, we are somewhere in the mid-range but, in terms of Africa, we are the 14th best country.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC.: Therefore, we are doing much better than the majority of the African countries. Their report is here. Therefore, this is not a mere emotional outburst. It is backed with empirical evidence.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chairperson, We are doing far much better than a good number of countries. For example, countries that were doing better then are Argentina, Algeria, Egypt and even Indonesia, but we are much better than those countries now.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC.: Countries such as Russia and Ukraine lag far behind us. We should not even talk about the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) because it is near the bottom of the list. Right at the end of the list is Somalia and the DRC is not very far from there. Therefore, from this list, which is from Transparency International, you can see that we are doing extremely well. It seems it us, the Zambians, who are trying to create the impression that Zambia is doing badly, but the rest of the world says that no, you are doing quite well.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC.: Therefore, we should try to be a bit more patriotic. Some say that they are being patriotic by telling the truth. The truth is that Zambia is doing well. Here is the report.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, there is a question of compensation and awards which has been given an amount of K138 billion.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Sikota, SC.: It has been given an amount of K138 billion. Whereas I do acknowledge that we do have a resource envelope crisis, K138 billion is terribly inadequate. I will give an example of just one case.

 There is a case of Insando Isikanda, which has been completed. Therefore, there are no issues of it being sub judice. It is a matter which has been completed and just awaiting payment. Insando Isikanda and 3,523 others who are civil servants who are separatees from the Government have got a judgment for dues going back as far as 1999 for K400 billion, four times the amount which is budgeted for in terms of the compensation awards. This is just one case. Therefore, if one thinks of all the other cases, one can see that there is a very big backlog of these compensations and awards that need to be dismantled. I would, therefore, urge the Government to look at this very critically because it affects the lives of so many people. So far, the Government has paid only K20 billion towards meeting this award. The K400 billion is accruing interest at 18 per cent per annum. So, you can imagine that if it is not tackled more aggressively, it will never be cleared.

Mr Chairperson, I have to commend the Government for sticking to the task of funding the National Constitutional Conference.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: It is a very important matter for all Zambians. It is also something that we need to ensure that it is completed in good time for the next elections in 2011. It is something which, perhaps, every patriotic Zambian is looking forward to being completed.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: It is something which every patriotic Zambian would be proud to say, “I played a part in giving ourselves a new Constitution.”

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Of course, whereas you have a good number of people who would be proud to assist in this noble cause, there will be other detractors who will try to hold everybody back. However, let us not worry ourselves about them. There is a sufficient number of people of goodwill in this country who want to see constitutional development in our country done correctly, in harmony and peacefully so that we can enhance the democratic credentials of Zambia and, on the Transparency International Corruption Index,  we will be creeping into the top ten bracket or there about. I believe it can be done.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, I also stand to support the vote on the Ministry of Justice which is a very important ministry.

Sir, as I proceed with my debate on this ministry, I want to mention the fact that democracy thrives on three important pillars of governance and these are: the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary. If Zambia has to emancipate itself democratically, it is prudent that every leader worth his or her salt appreciates that the judicial system in Zambia must be left to act and work independently without interference from anyone or any leader, either in the Executive or political system of this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Chimbaka: Sir, I am very happy that Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, SC., has informed Zambians through this House that, even though a lot of politicians have sang songs and talked about how corrupt our country is, the international community has a divergent and true perception of how the Government is attacking and addressing issues of corruption in the country, ...

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: … hence the ranking. Actually, in reality, we have been ranked six steps upwards from the eleventh to the seventh country. That is a great improvement. Compared to last year’s ranking, we have moved a step ahead.

What is contributing to all these factors? It is the prudence with which the Executive, Legislature and Judiciary are dispensing and addressing issues of justice and jurisprudence.

Mr Chairperson, I am talking as a person who is a vivid human rights activist. I am very much concerned about issues of justice dispensation. Zambians must realise that lies do not build a nation at all. Zambians must appreciate that the Government, which is in place at the moment, is trying to do everything as required by the rule of law…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: … unlike what we are seeing in some political circles where people want to become self graduated and appraised justices. It does not work like that. It is only in this country where I can stand and talk, and yet I am not a learned person, as legal persons are referred to.

In this country, today, lay persons who have not been to any school to learn legalism are in the forefront of trying to impersonate judges to the extent that we are seeing nonentities condemning the judicial system which they do not understand at all. This is very unfair. It is only in this country where we have seen certain media houses, editors and newspapers becoming courts, either supreme or constitutional and they qualify themselves to write about issues of jurisprudence. The judicial system in Zambia should address those issues because the peace of this country is, to a large extent, dependent on how judicious, impartial, dependable and competent the system becomes. The issues of addressing judicial issues or matters of the courts of law are not like selling tickets at a bus station. It is different because selling tickets is easy since anybody can sell a ticket and be called a ngw’angw’azi, but the issues we are talking about are governance ones which are critical to learned persons.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that the Ministry of Justice should equally address the issues of delays in judgement. Today, in Zambia, people are incarcerated for a long time and it is unfortunate that those who want to be heads of State are in the forefront without even understanding the constitutional rights of the Chief Justice, questioning why somebody should be appointed and why there should be a panel. Now, one wonders what type of judicial system they are going to put in place if ever they come to power.

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, the judicial system, in any country, is highly respected and that is why they are referred to as learned persons and they cannot be equated to me, a nonentity – Chimbaka - no. The judicial system …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I would like to guide the House because, sometimes, we do certain things out of ignorance and in this case I hope it is not deliberate. I would like to believe that when Hon. Kambwili shouted “Question” from the right side of the House, he knew that it is not allowed. You can only do that when you are in your seat and so the guidance is, for the future, to all hon. Members to do the right thing.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, the most important thing is that the Zambians out there understand and know who is who in this Parliament and in this country, Zambia.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, the dispensation of justice should be speeded up because justice delayed is justice denied. We need timely dispensation of justice …

Mr Kambwili murmured.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You are disturbing all hon. Members around you. Hon. Dr Machungwa wants to listen and you cannot proceed in that way.

Mr Chimbaka: I thank you, Sir, for your protection. Once this is done, the people definitely deserve the right to justice and once done, it will enable the people of Zambia to appreciate the judicial system which is very important and is recognised by people, especially those who are free of criminal offences.

In Mansa District, the situation is that there are very few magistrates and I wish that with the new budget and the provision and increased allocation to governance, the learned hon. Minister of Justice would consider employing more magistrates who should be able to resolve the cases which are taking long to dispose of.

Another critical issue, which I would like the judicial system to address, is the dispensation of justice concerning chiefdom disputes. For example, in my constituency in particular, it is very difficult for me to try and consult or probably work with anyone from Chief Chimese’s authority because the court has taken too long to dispose of a case which has been in the High Court for a long time. Therefore, it is now very difficult for me to try and consult on either traditional or developmental issues because if I do that, whoever I will consult will implicate me by associating me with or accusing me of supporting one of parties in the case. I think this is why we say justice delayed is justice denied and, therefore, it is detrimental to the governance of this country.

Mr Chairperson, the protection of the judicial system, like Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, SC., alluded to, is very important because if we do not do that, the people out there will be made to believe that what some politicians are saying is the truth. On that one, the Government must be very pragmatic. Let the people of Zambia know the truth about the judicial system and the rule of law. Then this country is going to be at peace because if we let things be, some of the ruthless people are going to use our enemies to do whatever they want and Zambia shall be on fire. Therefore, it is very important for us to let the separation of powers be seen, but the Executive’s role should be to ensure that the Constitution of this land is upheld and that no person at all must be seen to be above the law. The people are saying that we should let the Task Force accounts be audited because we want to know how much money they cropped and how much money was disbursed to it so that we can agree or disagree on particular issues as we have the right to know as Zambians.

Mr Chairperson, with these very few words, I thank you very much for the opportunity.

The Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development (Mr Machila): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this chance to debate. From the outset, I, too, would like to express my concern at the incessant attacks on the Judiciary, which cannot defend itself on a similar platform to those that are attacking it. This is, indeed, the height of cheap politics and it only serves to weaken the establishment.

Mr Chairperson, the Judiciary has been faced with many challenges over the years and the Government is in the process of addressing them. Many hon. Members here were present when we recently amended the law so that the number of judges can be increased. The expected outcome of that is that the delivery of judgement in courses will be quickened in that there will be many more judges to deal with the many cases which keep coming before the courts.

In addition to that, we are also aware that there are initiatives that are being undertaken by the judges to improve their infrastructure and facilities by introducing a recording system which is similar to what we have here at Parliament and, possibly, it is even more advanced. We welcome the work that is being done by the Judiciary in terms of bringing more people onto the bench and striking a balance between private practitioners who join the bench and also those who are being elevated through the ranks.

Mr Chairperson, there is one thing that I wish to appeal to the Judiciary to address and this is the issue that concerns the development of the jurisprudence. Too often, now, decisions are made from the highest court in the land where no dissenting opinion is availed. The absence of a dissenting opinion makes it impossible to develop our jurisprudence.

It is very important to those who are practising law or are still studying to become lawyers to be able to have the benefit of dissenting views amongst those who are sitting to deliberate on the matters that are before the Supreme Court in particular.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, I just wanted to touch very briefly on the Constitution-making process and the National Constitutional Conference (NCC) in particular. Some hon. Members of the House have chosen not to attend the NCC, a decision which I personally find very puzzling in that as an hon. Member of Parliament or citizen, the process of making a Constitution is probably the most important undertaking you will ever take part in, in your lifetime, if not even in your next lifetime.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, that said, we hope and expect that the NCC will be able to expedite its work within the resources that have been made available to it in the Budget and be able to keep on target, in terms of the calendar, so that we have the new Constitution in place before the next general elections which are due to take place in 2011.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I wish to register my support for this vote wholeheartedly and thank you.

The Deputy Chairperson: I think this is one vote whereby no matter how many hon. Members speak, they will just be repeating themselves and so on. All the same, I will give a chance to one more hon. Member to speak before the Acting Leader of Government Business in the House comes to conclude the debate.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I will be very brief. It will be noted as we debate the vote for the Ministry of Justice that this is the father ministry to the Judiciary, although we have already debated the Judiciary. However, when talking about the Ministry of Justice, we inevitably have to touch upon issues to do with the Judiciary. So if I mention the Judiciary, it must be understood in that regard.

Sir, justice is important in any country. It is an important part of our governance. If the justice system in a country collapses, then the country would collapse because if decisions that are made by the courts are ignored by every person, then there would be no order. There would be chaos. So it is important that the Ministry of Justice ensures, as it works through the Judiciary, that we continue to follow the rule of law in Zambia. Some people seem to be excited about the law, especially in recent years. In the past, when a court made a decision, people listened and if they had any objections, they would go to court to appeal against a conviction. For example, if the Government felt that, maybe, there was some miscarriage of justice in the decisions that were made by the courts, the Director of Public Prosecutions appealed according to the laws of the land.

However, recently, we have seen a phenomenon developing in the country where our own people and, unfortunately, sometimes, some outsiders who have money, want to be making comments that are meant to interfere with court proceedings. I am talking about people who are relatively junior officers in the governments they represent. These are diplomats but, when they come here, because they represent their countries, they seem to hold very high positions when, really, these positions would be equivalent to an undersecretary in their own countries. That is below a Permanent Secretary. We have seen a situation where people comment on whether there should be a conviction or not and, sometimes, even on the speed of the court process. Of course, we are all concerned that justice must be carried out expeditiously.  Can you imagine our Ambassador to the United Stated commenting on court matters? It is never heard of and it cannot be done. This is why it is important for the Ministry of Justice to work with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to talk to these people because it is not acceptable. We might be less privileged in terms of resources in the country, but we cannot accept a situation where people are commenting on everything, analysing and working with some tabloids, and commenting on these issues in the papers. It is never heard of and it cannot happen.

We have a situation in this House where legislators are trying to say what should be happening in the courts. Of course, we know that our role is to legislate, but you will find that when we stand up to debate in the House and if one refers to a matter which is in court, we are ruled out of order; the matter is sub judice. Now, it seems …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Who is that one who is just talking?

Hon. Government Members: Kambwili!

The Deputy Chairperson: You know, when we take action, we may seem to be very harsh. Next time I hear that, it will be very bad for you.

You may continue, please, hon. Member.

Dr Machungwa: Sir, it is sad to note that even hon. Members of Parliament who understand the separation of powers now want to be commenting, condemning and even supporting certain decisions by saying, “This is right and this is wrong.” If we do not like what is being decided upon, we are free to change the law so that it suits what we want, but what we want must be what justice and the people of Zambia want, not what a certain group of individuals want.

We have allowed a culture in this country, now, where anybody can call anybody names or even call them corrupt. The hon. Member of Parliament for Livingstone has given some data concerning the rankings on the Transparency International Corruption Index. However, if you read the papers, we have a situation where people at the top are now being described with very unsavoury language.

Sir, in any country you go to, there is a level of decorum. You have the President, Vice-President, hon. Ministers and so on and so forth. Just like in a home, you surely do not expect a son to always call his father an idiot or fool. If he does that, people will think that there is a problem in that family and they might even have to call that family together. In any situation, people make mistakes, but there is a way to handle these issues. We have also allowed some tabloids to certainly serve as reviewers of what is happening in the courts. When a decision is made, they want to write an analysis and say that this is the law and that is the way it should be. This is what is happening here. I have never heard …

Mr Mwenya: The K2 billion!

Dr Machungwa: You can debate if you have anything to debate. Otherwise, that is indiscipline on your part.

Sir, there should be order in what is supposed to be done in any country which considers itself democratic. If, for example, on this side of the House, we want to be in Government next time, we have to follow the law. Go to the elections and when we are on that side, we can also say we are in Government.

Mr Mwenya: K2 billion!

Dr Machungwa: If you want to debate, you are free to do so, but if I am debating, you must wait for your chance. That is the way it is supposed to be done, but if people want to debate like they are in a tavern, I am afraid we are turning this House into something that is not acceptable.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Sir, we passed the Supreme Court and High Court (Number of Judges) (Amendment) Bill, 2009 which we expect to be assented to and become law. We hope that the Vice-President and Minister of Justice will work with the Judiciary to ensure that there are more Judges and presiding officers so that cases move quickly. It is unacceptable for people to be going to court for a very long time. People are put behind bars for a very long time and do not appear in court quickly. That is simply not acceptable. I think the ministry should support the local courts, especially in the rural areas, because it is not possible for most of our people to go to magistrates’ courts. I urge the Government to provide more resources to improve the local court system because most of our people go to these courts.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

Dr Mwansa: Sir, I thank you, once again, for the opportunity to wind up debate on the Ministry of Justice. I want to commend all the hon. Members who debated for their constructive contributions.

The hon. Member for Livingstone is always balanced, thoughtful and constructive in his debate. I thank you most sincerely.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Certainly, we must all protect and defend the Judiciary because attacks can undermine confidence and pose a threat to the independence of the Judiciary. There is a window which we should all use if we are dissatisfied with the functions of the Judiciary and this is the Judicial Complaints Authority where complaints can be channeled, investigated and action taken where necessary.

Sir, I want to say that our Judiciary is one of the most respected in the Commonwealth and beyond. We must be proud of this record as Zambians and, therefore, cherish and protect it.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa:  Our Judges have done extremely well elsewhere. On the African Continent, they have sat on the bench in The Gambia and the International Court of Justice and recently, a retired Judge joined a panel of Former Presidents of South Africa and Nigeria on a Special Mission in the Darfur, commissioned by the African Union.

The hon. Member for Livingstone also mentioned the Insando Isikanda case. This will be followed up and we will continue paying the instalments until the final one is made.

In terms of delays in the dispensation of justice, I want to assure the hon. Member for Bahati, Mr Chimbaka, that the law that we enacted recently is going to increase the number of Judges both in the High and Supreme Courts and this, along with the construction of court rooms, will certainly go a long way in improving the rate of case disposal as well as case management. Hon. Members will very soon see some change in this direction.

The hon. Minister of Livestock and Fisheries Development, Mr Machila, talked about recording the sentiments and opinions in the Supreme Court. This has been noted. I think it is something we can investigate and look at for the future.

As regards the hon. Member for Luapula, Dr Machungwa, I agree with him. It is unheard of for any diplomat of any description to comment on internal matters. All diplomats have been cautioned on this and we expect to see some change in this direction.

I thank you, once again, Sir.

Vote 31/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31/03 (Ministry of Justice – Administrator General’s Chambers – K3,381,894,696).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Liquidation and Bankruptcy – K172,196,053. What is involved in this? Is the ministry going bankrupt or what?

May I also have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Collection of Rent Arrears – K95,800,000. I would like to know what is involved in this activity. Is the ministry into debt collection?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, Unit 2, Programme 9, Activity 01 – Liquidation and Bankruptcy – K172,196,053 does not refer to the bankruptcy of the institution itself. It has to do with individuals or companies that might go bankrupt.

Sir, Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Collection of Rent Arrears – K95,800,000 is meant for the collection of rent from properties of companies that have gone under liquidation. For example, the Roan Antelope Mining Corporation of Zambia (RAMCOZ) has houses that are administered by the Administrator General’s Office and rentals have to be collected from those properties.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 31/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 31/07 – (Ministry of Justice - Directorate of Public Prosecutions Chambers – K8,432,663,675).

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 04 – Establishment of Prosecutions Manual – K557,436,496. Is this the last amount of money required for the manual to be completed?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, this will do tentatively. However, due to the economic trends, we cannot guarantee that this could be the final figure.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 31/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)



[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1956 hours until 1430 hours on Wednesday, 18th November, 2009.