DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Thursday, 19th March, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

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REPRIMAND BEFORE THE BAR OF THE HOUSE OF MR JACK JACOB MWIIMBU, MP

Mr Speaker: I order you, hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Central Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Jack Jacob Mwiimbu, MP, to stand behind the Bar of the House.  I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s Mace and go and stand behind the hon. Member.

Mr Jack Jacob Mwiimbu, MP, was escorted to the Bar by the Sergeant-At-Arms.

Mr Speaker: The House may wish to know that on 27th November, 2008, the Hon. Mr Speaker received a complaint, submitted by the Provincial Minister for Southern Province, Hon D. Munkombwe, MP, against hon. Member of Parliament for Monze Parliamentary Constituency, Mr. J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, on the remarks attributed to him in The Post Newspaper Issue No. 4415 of Tuesday, 18th November, 2008, under the headline “Government must apologise to Catholics over Munkombwe’s remarks – Mwiimbu.”

The complaint by Hon. Munkombwe, MP, read as follows:

 “Dear Sir

RE: COMPLAINT AGAINST HON. JACK MWIIMBU, MP (MONZE CENTRAL)

I wish to register my complaint against Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, MP, Monze Central for the remarks attributed to him in The Post Newspaper No. 4415 of Tuesday, 18th November, 2008 under the heading “Government must apologise to the Catholic Church over Munkombwe’s remarks – Mwiimbu.”

Mr Speaker, Hon. Mwiimbu is reported to have said, ‘Government must apologise to the Catholic Church over Daniel Munkombwe’s irresponsible remarks that the Church leaders are being arrested for being political agents of genocide.’ Furthermore, Hon. Mwiimbu reportedly charged that, ‘it was foolish and irresponsible for Munkombwe to allege that the Catholic Church could cause genocides in Zambia,’ and that ‘Mwiimbu demanded that the Government apologise for what he termed as, “Munkombwe’s reckless statement against the Catholic Church.”’

 Hon. Mwiimbu is further reported to have said, ‘To be frank, it is utterly foolish and irresponsible for Munkombwe to say such a statement against the Catholic Church. Any sane leader cannot allow such a statement to escape off his lips. The Catholic Church is a partner and champion of democracy and cannot be an agent of genocide. If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church, most educated Zambians would not be making such careless statements.’

Mr Speaker, in my contribution during the week under review, 11th – 14th November, 2008, I did not make any such utterances against the Catholic Church. In fact, if my memory is correct, Hon. Mwiimbu was not even in the House when I made my contributions in the House.
Mr Speaker, according to Section 3 of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, there is Freedom of Speech and Debate in the Assembly and such freedom of speech and debate shall not be liable to be questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly. I submit, Mr Speaker that through his statement to the press, Hon. Mwiimbu is unduly putting into question my freedom of speech and debate in the House.

Furthermore, Mr Speaker, Section 25 of the same Act of Parliament provides that:

‘any person who publishes any false or scandalous libel of the Assembly or any report which willfully misrepresents, in any way, proceedings of the Assembly or any Committee shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding five thousand penalty units or to imprisonment with or without hard labour for a term not exceeding twelve months or to both.’

Mr Speaker, it is my considered view that Hon. Mwiimbu and The Post Newspaper are in breach of the above sections and are contemptuous of the National Assembly by publishing and uttering statements falsely on my contributions in the House.

I submit herewith, the verbatim transcripts of my debates during the week in question, for your serious consideration and ruling in order to restore confidence and the integrity of the House.

Yours faithfully

Daniel Munkombwe, GCDS, MP.”

Hon Members, according to the verbatim transcript of the debates of Friday, 14th November, 2008, Hon. Munkombwe, MP, uttered the following words which were found relevant to this case:

“Hon. Members of Parliament are slaves. During their five-year tenure of office in Parliament, unlike the twenty years I did, they have to spend. A Member of Parliament has got to mourn people, attend weddings and funerals. However, the allowance that we get is no longer attractive or enough to assist and lead people. You cannot lead them in a vacuum.

You cannot lead them out of nothing. Therefore, this Committee must go beyond what it has done.

Next time, it must research. In fact, we can even plead on their behalf that they go and visit some neighbouring countries. We are an embarrassment.

You were there, but you should visit even more countries so that you make comparisons. Except here, we get intimidated so easily when some people cough from outside and are assisted by some churches which are political parties. For instance, we will, in future, ask those churches to tell us, if we have four people standing, who they want to win those elections. That is why you have their pastors, reverends or fathers or whatever they are called arrested for agitating people because they are full-time party organisers, except they cannot come here.

Mr Speaker, I have the capacity, if for instance, I retain my position in this House; I do not think we will allow that type of attitude because I belong to church organisations myself and I am a decent church goer. They must know.

Mr Speaker, the agents of genocide must hear it and hear it more loudly now than ever before. We do not love genocide. Those who pretend that they can use the pulpit or the Church to destroy this country, let them go. There is a phrase used in the Bible, ‘Let them go to that area where the unchristian will be dumped.’ If I had my way, I would say, ‘Let them go to hell,’ but I know that is unparliamentary and so I withdraw it.

Laughter

Mr Speaker, can we have value for this House and when we are asked to confirm that value, none of us should descend, but we must be unanimous in supporting things.”

The House may further wish to know that, the relevant article in The Post newspaper read, inter alia, as follows:

“Government must apologise to the Catholic Church over Daniel Munkombwe’s irresponsible remarks that the Church leaders are being arrested for being political agents of genocide, Monze Central UPND Member of Parliament, Jack Mwiimbu has demanded.

Commenting on Southern Province Minister Munkombwe’s statement that Church Leaders were being arrested because they were becoming agents of political genocide, Mwiimbu charged that it was foolish and irresponsible for Munkombwe to allege that the Catholic Church could cause genocide in Zambia.

Mwiimbu demanded that the Government should apologise for what he termed as Munkombwe’s reckless statement against the Catholic Church.  Mwiimbu said if it were not for the Catholic Church, most educated people like Munkombwe and others would not have been serving in Government.  He said the Catholic Church had contributed a lot to the development of Zambia and that it deserved to be respected by all citizens.

To be frank, it is utterly foolish and irresponsible for Munkombwe to say such a statement against the Catholic Church.  Any sane leader cannot allow such a statement to escape his lips.  The Catholic Church is a partner and champion of democracy and cannot be an agent of genocide.  If it was not for the Catholic Church, most educated Zambians would not be making such careless statements, Mwiimbu said.”

Hon Members, this matter was referred to the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services for their consideration. 

In accordance with Parliamentary Practice and Procedure, and in line with the principle of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, requesting him to confirm or deny the words attributed to him in The Post newspaper.  The Office of the Clerk also wrote to the Editor of The Post newspapers Limited for a confirmation of the story which appeared in their newspaper edition of 18th November, 2008.

In his letter of reply, dated 10th December, 2008, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, stated as follows:

“COMPLAINT AGAINST MYSELF − HON MUNKOMBWE

The above and your letter dated the 9th of December ,2008 wherein, it is alleged that I violated the complainant’s Parliamentary privilege refers.

Please be advised that I am finding it extremely difficult to make any informed response to your request to respond to the allegation.  It is important to note that the purported article does not refer to any debate in the House.  Further, I would like to be informed as to how Hon. Munkombwe deduced that the so called statement that is attributed to me referred to his debate on the Floor of the House, to warrant a complaint pertaining to violation of Parliamentary privilege.
In the premises, I urge your office to request the complainant to provide further and better particulars of his allegation to enable me to respond adequately.

Yours faithfully

Jack Jacob Mwiimbu.”

At its first sitting, the Committee resolved to adjourn consideration of the matter to another date so as to allow time for Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, to itemise, in the form of questions, the issues for which he required clarification by way of further and better particulars.  The following was Mr Mwiimbu’s response:

“Dear Madam

RE: COMPLAINT AGAINST MYSELF BY THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR SOUTHERN PROVINCE, HON. D. MUNKOMBWE, MP

Reference is made to your minute dated the 19th of February, 2009, instant on the same and wishes to submit as hereunder stated.

1. Did the complainant in his debate in the House refer to the Catholic Church as agents of genocide?

2. How did the purported statement that is attributed to me and which statement has nothing to do with his debate in the House offend the parliamentary privileges?

Yours faithfully,

Jack Jacob Mwiimbu
Monze Central MP”

When the letter from Mr Mwiimbu, MP, was passed on to Mr Munkombwe, MP, for his response, Hon. D Munkombwe, MP, in his letter dated 25th February, 2009, stated as follows:

“Dear Madam

I write to respond to your letter requesting me to furnish you with fresh particulars on my complaints against Hon. Jack Mwiimbu, MP. The facts are that, yes, I spoke about churches and church leaders in general, but never singled out the Catholic Church. Unless, therefore, Hon. Mwiimbu can prove that I said those words outside this House, I will stick to my original complaints that my privileges were infringed upon. My preliminary reaction was recorded when he raised preliminary issues. I will, therefore, stick to my preliminary reaction which is recorded.

Yours faithfully,

Daniel Munkombwe, GCDS, MP
Minister, Southern Province”

The letter from Hon. Munkombwe, MP, was passed on to Mr Mwiimbu, MP, and the following was his response:

“Dear Madam

RE: COMPLAINT AGAINST MYSELF BY THE DEPUTY MINISTER FOR SOUTHERN PROVINCE, HON. D. MUNKOMBWE, MP

Reference is made to the above subject matter and to your minute of the 25th February, 2008, on the same and wish to take note of the contents therein.

It is important to note that the one who alleges must prove the allegations. It is not for the accused person or alleged offender to prove the allegations. Hon. Munkombwe must prove that the purported statement that did not refer to his debate in the House did actually refer to same. It is interesting to note that he alleges that he only referred to church leaders and churches in general as agents of genocide.

The Committee may wish to know that the Catholic Church is a registered church in Zambia and has leadership. In the premises, I restate that the complainant must adduce evidence and thereafter I should be accorded the opportunity to defend myself.

Yours faithfully,

J. J. Mwiimbu
Monze Central, MP”

The House may wish to note that there was no response from The Post newspaper.

The Hon Member for Monze Parliamentary Constituency, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, also appeared before the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services and the Committee’s findings were as follows:

Findings of the Committee

After examining the written and oral submissions by the witnesses, the Committee established that:

1. The Deputy Minister for Southern Province, Hon. Munkombwe, MP, did not make any statement pertaining to the church and genocide anywhere else other than on the Floor of the House.

2. The hon. Member for Monze Parliamentary Constituency neither denied nor admitted making the statements which were attributed to him in The Post newspaper. The Committee noted that the Member, in one breath, would admit having made the statements to the newspaper and, in another, deny making them, thereby delaying and unnecessarily prolonging the Committee’s proceedings on the matter.

3. The hon. Member of Parliament for Monze, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, refused to assist the Committee in establishing where else the Deputy Minister for Southern Province may have made similar statements, hiding under the pretext that, if he did, he would be helping the complainant to establish a case against him. The hon. Member of Parliament for Monze persistently hid under the legal maxim that ‘He who alleges, must prove’, when it was clear to the Committee that, in civil matters, the burden of proof shifts depending on the matter at stake. It is only in criminal cases that the burden of proof rests on the prosecution.

4. The hon. Member of Parliament for Monze, if at all he was misquoted by The Post newspaper, did not make any efforts to seek a retraction or correction from the newspaper.

5. The Committee established that the hon. Member of Parliament for Monze was not in the House when the Deputy Minister for Southern Province, Hon. D. Munkombwe, debated in the House.

It was on the basis of the above findings that the Committee found the hon. Member for Monze:
(i) to have breached sections 3, 19(e) and 23 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, which provide for the freedom of speech for Members of Parliament and guards against any act of disrespect to the House and its Members; and

(ii) to have breached Parliamentary etiquette by using unparliamentary and unacceptable language against another hon. Member.

The House may wish to know that the following authorities on Parliamentary Practice and Procedure provide as follows:

(a) M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled ‘Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fifth Edition,’ on pages 306 to 307, state that:

“In order to maintain the highest traditions in parliamentary life, Members of Parliament are expected to observe a certain standard of conduct, both inside the House as well as outside it. Their behaviour should be such as to enhance the dignity of Parliament and its members in general. The conduct of members should not be contrary to the usage or derogatory to the dignity of the House or in any way inconsistent with the standard which Parliament is entitled to expect of its members.

… It is within the powers of the House, in each case, to determine whether a member has acted in an unbecoming manner or has acted in a manner unworthy of a Member of Parliament. Thus, even though the facts of a particular case do not come within any recognised heads of breach of privilege or contempt of the House, the conduct of a member may be considered by the House as unbecoming and derogatory to the dignity of the House.”

The authors’ further state, on pages 278-279 of the same book, that:

“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to make speeches or to print or publish any libels reflecting on the character of proceedings of the House or its Committees or any Member of the House for or relating to his character or conduct as a Member of Parliament …

Speeches and writings reflecting on the House or its Committees or Members are punished by the Houses as a contempt on the principle that such acts will tend to obstruct the Houses in the performance of their functions by diminishing the respect due to them.”

On page 287, of the same book, the authors state that:

“Any attempt to influence a member otherwise than by way of argument which has as its motive the intention to deter him from performing his duty, constitutes a breach of privilege.  Thus, an attempt to intimidate members by threats with a view to influence them in their parliamentary conduct is a breach of privilege.”

(b) Section 3, of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12, of the Laws of Zambia, states that:

“There shall be freedom of speech and debate in the Assembly.  Such Freedom of speech and debate shall not be liable to be questioned in any court or place outside the Assembly.”

Further, sections 19(e) and 23 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12, of the Laws of Zambia, state that:

“19(e) Any person shall be guilty of an offence who commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a Committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.”

23. Any person shall be guilty of an offence who:

(b) Endeavours to compel, either directly or indirectly, any member by force, insult or menace to declare himself in favour of, or against any Bill, resolution, matter, rule, or thing submitted to or intended to be submitted to the Assembly.”

Hon Members may wish to note that from the facts of the case and the various authorities I have quoted, the Committee established the following breaches committed by Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP:

(i) By going to the press to discuss a Member’s debate on the Floor of the House, the Hon Member of Parliament for Monze Parliamentary Constituency breached parliamentary privilege as already alluded to.  This is in breach of Section 3 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia which states, as follows:

“There shall be freedom of debate in the Assembly such freedom of debate shall not be liable to be questionable in any court or place outside the Assembly.”

(ii) His action was tantamount to an attempt to influence a Member otherwise than by way of debate in the House and had, as its motive, the intention to deter Hon D Munkombwe, MP, from debating freely in the House, in general, and performing his duties as a Member of Parliament, in particular. An attempt to intimidate a Member indirectly on what he says on the Floor of the House is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House.

(iii) By using unparliamentary language in his allegation against the Hon Deputy Minister for Southern Province outside the Assembly on a matter that arose from a debate in the House, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, breached parliamentary etiquette. 

(iv) Mr Mwiimbu was also in breach of the rule against intentional disrespect to the House.  Section 19(e) provides as follows:

 “Any person shall be guilty of an offence who commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a Committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.”

The hon. Member for Monze Parliamentary Constituency was, therefore, in breach of parliamentary procedure and privilege and was in contempt of the House by questioning the debate of another hon. Member outside the House. 

Hon. Members, the Committee considered the gravity of the offence committed by the hon. Member for Monze, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, and were of the view that the offence warranted his suspension from the House in accordance with the provisions of Section 28 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privilege) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, not only because of the breaches I have stated, but also for unnecessarily wasting the Committee’s time and resources.  However, the Committee considered the fact that Hon. Mwiimbu, MP, was a first offender and deserved leniency.  The Committee, therefore, resolved that the hon. Member be severely reprimanded at the bar of the House.

Now, I turn to you, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, and reprimand you as follows:

(1) The privileges which the House and its Members enjoy are meant to protect the House and its Members from undue influence either from within or from outside.  By you, Mr Mwiimbu, taking the debate of Hon. Munkombwe from the House to the public, through the media, outside the context of the hon. Member’s debate, you willfully undermined the powers and privileges of this House and rendered Members of this House vulnerable.  This is never done, particularly by an hon. Member of this very House.  You must stop this kind of unbefitting conduct forthwith.  The powers and privileges accorded to this House by the Constitution of the land have justifiable historical reasons.  By doing what you did, you are crippling this House from carrying out its functions as provided for under the Constitution.  It may be excusable if such conduct came from an outsider, but not from an hon. Member of this House who ought to know and appreciate the importance of this cardinal pillar of parliamentary democracy.

2. By using disrespectful language towards another hon. Member of this House, who is a Minister in Government and an elderly member of society, you, Mr Mwiimbu, disowned the decorum, dignity and respect accorded to this House.  All hon. Members of this House are honourable in their conduct, in their speech and in every aspect relating to their personality.   This House will not tolerate this kind of conduct from any of its members.  You must, therefore, desist from any conduct of this nature, henceforth.

3. The rules of parliamentary practice and procedure are put in place for the smooth and effective operations of the House and have evolved over a long period of time and have been subjected to the test of time.  They cannot, therefore, be carelessly eroded by dishonourable behaviour.

I, therefore, remind you, Mr Mwiimbu, that as an hon. Member of this House, you are expected to safeguard these rules and not wilfully tear them down.

I now take this opportunity to warn all hon. Members that any repetition of such disrespectful conduct to this House, its Members or its Committees, will be met with severe punishment against any erring Member.  Of late, hon. Members of this august House have observed that cases of breach of parliamentary powers and privileges and contempt of this House are on the increase.  This House cannot afford to proceed in that direction.  Let this be a lesson for all hon. Members. The House must preserve its dignity and integrity.

Before I order you to resume your seat, Mr J. J. Mwiimbu, MP, I direct you to offer an apology to the House for your dishonourable conduct, after which you may resume your seat.

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PERSONAL STATEMENT

APOLOGY BY THE HON. MEMBER FOR MONZE (MR J. J. MWIIMBU)

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze): Mr Speaker, in response to the decision of the House through the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services I, Jacob Jack Mwiimbu, Member of Parliament for Monze Central Constituency do unreservedly apologise to the House and Hon. Munkombwe, for the unfortunate remarks I made on Hon. Daniel Munkombwe’s debate in the House as quoted in the article attributed to me in The Post newspaper of 18th November, 2008.

Sir, I have reflected on my utterances which amounted to a breach of the powers and privileges of the House and tended to lower the dignity and decorum of this august House and I deeply regret my conduct in this regard.

Mr Speaker, I have attentively followed your reprimand and guidance and I accordingly wish to assure you and this august House that I will endeavour to ensure that my future actions and utterances are in conformity with the standard of conduct that this House expects from its hon. Members.

I thank you, Sir.

Question put and agreed to.

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MINISTERIAL STATEMENT

GRADE 12 EXAMINATIONS RESULTS

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the nation that my ministry has now completed the processing of the 2008 Grade 12 School Certificate and General Certificate of Education (GCE) examinations. The analysis of these examination results is as follows:

Candidates entered for the examinations

Boys   33,448
Girls   25,321

Total   58,769
Candidates who sat for the examinations

Boys   32,585
Girls   24,544

Total   57,129

Candidates with Full Certificates

Boys   20,668
Girls   14,227

Total   34,895

Candidates with GCE Certificates

Boys   11,382
Girls   9,895

Total   21,277

Candidates who failed the examinations

Boys   535
Girls   422

Total   957

Candidates who were absent

Boys   863
Girls   777

Total   1,640

According to the performance of candidates in the 2008 examination, these results show that:

(i) 61.08 per cent of the candidates obtained full certificates in 2008, compared to 60.98 per cent in 2007;

(ii) 37.24 per cent of the candidates obtained general certificate of education (GCE) certificates in 2008, compared to 37.28 per cent in 2007;

(iii) 2.79 per cent of the candidates were absent from the examination in 2008, compared to 2.56 per cent in 2007;

(iv) 1.68 per cent of the candidates failed the examination in 2008 compared, to 1.74 per cent in 2007.

Northern Province, recorded a decline in performance from 55.42 per cent in 2007 to 53.90 in 2008.

Nine out of twenty-six schools recorded pass percentages of less than 50 per cent and these are: Mporokoso High School at 42.5 per cent, Kasama Boys High School at 40.2 per cent, Luwingu High School at 45.0 per cent, Ituna High School at 26.9 per cent, Muyombe Secondary School at 33.6 per cent, Chilonga Secondary School at 44.9 per cent, Nakonde High School at 38.1 per cent, Mpulungu High School at 38.9 per cent and Leif Private School at 22.7 per cent.

Lubushi Seminary and St Francis Secondary School were the two schools with 100 per cent pass out of twenty-six schools which presented candidates.

Luapula Province recorded an improvement in performance from 52.19 per cent in 2007 to 65.03 per cent in 2008.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Four out of 22 schools recorded pass percentage of less than 50 per cent and these are: Chimpempe Secondary School at 39 per cent, Mabumba Secondary School at 37.6 per cent, Kasaba High School at 39.1 per cent and Ponde High School at 38.6 per cent. Charles Lwanga Junior Seminary was the only school with 100 per cent pass.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Southern Province recorded a decline in performance from 73.33 per cent in 2007 to 63.4 per cent in 2008. Thirteen out of 43 schools recorded pass percentages of less than 50 per cent and these schools are: Frances Davidson High School 27.7 per cent, Jembo Secondary School at 49.2 per cent, Masuku Secondary School at 34.7 per cent, Chipepo High School at 25.3 per cent, Siavonga High School at 39.1 per cent, Ellaine Brittel High School 36.7 per cent, Mwata High School at 29.7 per cent, Nanga High School at 34.7 per cent, Choma Day High School at 48 per cent, Chirundu High School at 43.9 per cent, Chuundu High School at 20.6 per cent, Uphill School at 28.9 per cent and Busongo Private School at 14 per cent. Two schools recorded 100 per cent pass and these are Mukasa Minor Seminary …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear! It is a Catholic school.

Professor Lungwangwa: … and Nakambala Private School.

As for Eastern Province, it recorded a slight decline from 64.93 per cent in 2007 to 62.62 per cent in 2008. Six out of 44 schools recorded pass percentage of less than 50 per cent and these are: Petauke Day School at 42 per cent, Nyanje Day High School at 44.1 per cent, Feni High School at 48.6 per cent, Mfuwe Day High School 32.2 per cent, Chama Day High School at 24.5 per cent and Chadiza Day High School at 44.1 per cent. Three schools in the province recorded 100 per cent pass rate and these are: St. Mary Junior Seminary, Chongololo Schools and Sonja Girls High School.

The Copperbelt Province recorded a marginal improvement in performance from 67.85 per cent in 2007 to 68.48 per cent in 2008.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Thirteen out of 71 schools recorded a pass percentage of less than 50 per cent and these are: Chati Secondary School at 40.5 per cent, Twashuka Secondary School at 44.7 per cent, Luanshya Central High School at 44.7 per cent, Maiteneke High School at 16.7 per cent, Mitondo …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Professor Lungwangwa: …. Secondary School at 45.8 per cent, Muchinga High at 34.3 per cent, Pamodzi Girls High School at 48.4 per cent, Muchunga High School at 46.2 per cent, Ndola Modern High School at 47.4 per cent, Mupapa Adventist Academy at 45.5 per cent and Kemus Education Institute at 42.9 per cent.

Nine schools recorded 100 per cent pass and these are: Ibenga Girls Secondary School …

Hon. Opposition Members: Catholic!

Professor Lungwangwa: … Fatima Girls Secondary School …

Hon. Opposition Members: Catholic!

Professor Lungwangwa: … Mpelembe Secondary School …

Hon. Opposition Members: Catholic!

Mr Speaker: Order! I shall stop him from continuing if you behave like that.

You may continue.

Professor Lungwangwa: … Da-Gama Secondary School, Sathya-sai Secondary School, St. Johns Convent School, Sacred Heart Convent School, Nsansa International School and Kalulushi Trust School.

Mr Speaker, North-western Province recorded an increase in performance from 33.54 per cent in 2007 to 40.37 per cent in 2008. Thirteen out 22 schools recorded pass percentage of less than 50 per cent and these are: Maheba Secondary School at 23.6 per cent, Kabompo Secondary School at 32.3 per cent, Solwezi Day Secondary School at 27.2 per cent, Zambezi Day Secondary School at 43.8 per cent, Kasempa Day Secondary School at 23.6 per cent, Kyawama Secondary School at 39 per cent, Loloma Day Secondary School at 35.5 per cent, Chavuma Day Secondary School at 38.7 per cent, Lwawu Day High School at 30 per cent, Lunga Day Secondary School at 33 per cent, Kalene Day Secondary School at 10.7 per cent, Mufumbwe Secondary School at 23 per cent and Ntambu High at 10.9 per cent.

As for Central Province, it recorded a decline in performance from 64.24 per cent in 2007 to 57.26 in 2008. Ten out of 32 schools recorded pass percentage of less than 50 per cent and these are: Bwacha High School at 49.4 per cent, Chindwin Barracks High School at 48.6 per cent, Mukobeko High School at 45.3 per cent, Mkushi Copperbelt Mine at 39 per cent, Nambala Secondary School at 25.2 per cent, Raphael Kombe High School at 45 per cent, Nampundwe High School 23.3 per cent, Jasmine Boys High 31.3 per cent, Chika Private School at 28.9 per cent and Moomba High School at 27.7 per cent. St. Paul Secondary School was the only school with 100 per cent pass.

Mr Speaker, western Province recorded an increase in performance from 42.87 per cent in 2007 to 56.73 in 2008. Nine out of 25 schools recorded less than 50 per cent pass and these are: Kalabo Secondary School at 45.6 per cent, Mangango Secondary School at 43.8 per cent, Sichili Secondary School at 45.3 per cent, Limulunga High School at 38.4 per cent, Nalionwa High School at 33.7 per cent, Sioma Secondary School at 43.9 per cent, Bother Luke High School at 0 per cent, Matauka High School at 49.6 per cent and Bist High School at 20.2 per cent.

Mr Speaker, Lusaka Province recorded a marginal decline in performance from 63.18 per cent in 2007 to 61.88 per cent in 2008. Nine out of 52 schools recorded school certificate pass rate of less than 50 per cent and these are: Chelston High School at 35.5 per cent, City Education Centre at 39.3 per cent, Tum Secondary School at 31.1 per cent, Mwavi High School at 42.9 per cent, Zipas High School at 46.4 per cent, Tina Trust at 34.3 per cent, Lumumba Road Secondary School at 47.6 per cent, Dolly Dollar at 31.2 per cent, Mount Jebica Secondary School at 26 per cent and Jarmy Secondary at 38.8 per cent.

Three schools recorded 100 per cent pass and these are: Roma Girls Secondary School, Matero Boys Secondary School and Kasisi Girls Secondary School.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker, as a way forward, the Ministry of Education will send education standards officers to schools which did not perform well in order to help them map out strategies for better performance in future examinations.  The ministry has developed a programme which will assist in improving supervision at school level. The programme is meant to develop capacity for head teachers in supervising schools and is scheduled to start in August, 2009.

The Ministry of Education and the University of Zambia have also designed a programme to upgrade the qualifications of the teachers from diploma to degrees so that they can handle high school pupils effectively. This programme with 6,000 teachers is scheduled to start in May, 2009.

Additional teaching and learning materials will be procured for high schools. Continuous professional development at school level is being intensified to improve competencies and confidence of the teachers.

With these measures in place, the ministry expects improvement in the performance of learners at school certificate level.

Mr Speaker, regarding examination malpractices, 285 candidates were involved in examination malpractices in the 2008 examinations compared to 116 candidates in the 2007 examinations. The nature of the malpractices was largely that of candidates smuggling materials into the examination rooms. The examination results of all the candidates involved in the examination malpractices have been withheld pending further investigations by the Law Enforcement Agency and MoE.

The increase in the number of examination malpractices is as a result of increased monitoring, visits to examination centers as examinations were being written. Examination centres were closely monitored during the whole examinations period by Standard Officers at all levels and other interested key stakeholders in quality education delivery in the country.

Mr Speaker, on the issue of release of results, individual statements can be obtained from schools and examination centres where the candidates sat for their examinations. No results will be given from MoE Headquarters or the Examinations Council of Zambia (ECZ).

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members may now ask questions on points of clarification on the ministerial statement which has been issued by the hon. Minister of Education.

Mr Mbewe: (Chadiza): Mr Speaker, may I know from the hon. Minister why the number of absentees is …

Mr Mwiimbu: On a point of order, Sir!

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, the point of order that I am raising is a life threatening point of order as per your advice in this House.

Mr Speaker is this Government in order to remain quiet and mute when the situation obtaining in Western Province, Kalabo in particular, and some parts of Southern Province is life threatening in that we have lost a number of lives as confirmed by the hon. Deputy Minister in the Ministry of Communications and Transport.

Mr Speaker, we are all aware that some responsible governments have declared such a situation a national disaster. Some of these are the responsible governments of Angola and Namibia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: When is this irresponsible Government going to declare the loss of livestock and the destructive situation that is obtaining in Zambia a national disaster? I need your serious ruling.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The earliest opportunity that point of order which has been raised by the hon. Member of Monze Central Constituency may be reacted to is tomorrow. Hon. Members are aware that tomorrow, His Honour the Vice-President has a free thirty minute period. I shall give him the opportunity ,within those thirty minutes, to apprise this House of the issues pertaining to the point of order. Therefore, it is very likely that His Honour the Vice-President will use up the entire time allotted to him that you normally enjoy to fire unrehearsed questions at him. Whether he is going to speak for the entire thirty minutes or less, I cannot say.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member for Chadiza was saying something, may you continue.

Mr Mbewe: Mr Speaker, I was trying to find out from the hon. Minister why the number of pupils who were absent was higher than the previous year and which provinces were affected?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I have not indicated the reasons for the absenteeism which led to 1,640 candidates reported as being absent. There have not been any follow ups yet to establish the reasons they were absent.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwenzi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out the time-frame given to those who might have failed and want to rewrite the examinations this year?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the early release of the results gives opportunity to candidates who may wish to repeat to do so at the end of the year.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, the issue of examination malpractices comes up year after year. When is your ministry coming up with measures, such as bringing a Bill in the House to introduce stiff punishments for those involved, especially teachers who get involved in these examinations malpractices?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we are working on that. 
I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister said that standards officers will go to the schools where results were poor. Why are the standards officers going when the damage has already been done instead of going to schools all the time so that we avoid poor results?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the inspection of schools is a continuous process, but in this case we are responding to a situation that has arisen so that we are able to assist the schools to do better.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, I would like the hon. Member to explain whether it is the non-availability of laboratories in the newly opened high schools that could have contributed to the poor performance in most of these schools.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, laboratories are just one factor which might affect performance in science, but there could be a number of other factors and that is why we are conducting an analysis of the post examination situation so that we are able to establish a number of factors that affect the performance of candidates in the schools that have been identified.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, if you look at the results, there has been an overall improvement in the performance. What could the hon. Minister attribute this overall improvement to, particularly, in the predominantly rural and not urban provinces?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am happy that the hon. Member has recognised the improvements in our predominantly rural areas in particular, Luapula, North-Western and Western provinces. Indeed, the improved performance in the recent past is as a result of factors like the commitment of our teachers. That is a very important factor in developing country like this one and also the efforts the ministry is making in providing educational materials and other support facilities to these schools. We are happy as a ministry that the rural areas are showing improvement in academic performance of the candidates. It also shows that these areas which are performing well will eventually contribute to equitable distribution in education opportunities, especially, at the tertiary level among our children across the country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chazanga (Choma): Mr Speaker, can this hard working hon. Minister confirm to this House and tell the nation a bigger number of schools in Southern Province did not do well. Is it not due to hunger because pupils were going to work for food instead of going to school?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we cannot speculate at this point, but our post examination analysis will establish the factors that might have led to a marginal decline in the performance of candidates in Southern Province and we shall let the hon. Member know what the cause or factors might have been.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Imasiku (Liuwa): Mr Speaker, what does the hon. Minister intend to do regarding schools like the private school which recorded a zero pass rate? What does the ministry intend to do?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we shall intensify our investigations and depending on our findings, carry out some appropriate remedies.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Mr Speaker, in the recent past, some candidates have had some missing results. What remedial measures have been put in place to cure this nuisance?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as the hon. Member might know, ECZ is highly computerised and in situations like that, we take appropriate measures to ensure that we locate the missing examination results.

I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Speaker, whilst the sons and daughters of Hon. Namugala and the grandchildren of Hon. Munkombwe went to school this year and wrote examinations, 2,226 including 600 finalists, sons and daughters of the poorest of the poor in our country, in a place called Sichifulo did not sit for the examinations as a result of the action of the two hon. Ministers. What action are you taking as hon. Minister responsible for education for the failure of 600 finalists, sons and daughters of the poorest of the poor of our land, to achieve education like the sons and daughters of Hon. Namugala and the grandchildren of the Provincial Minister of Southern Province?

Mr Speaker: Order! I should have ruled you out of order from the beginning. That is not the right way to ask a question. You personalised and particularised and when you do that, you raise tempers.

The hon. Minister of Education should answer this question, but ignore the persons involved.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I did not understand what the question was about.

Thank you, Sir.
Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, the adage that, ‘you reap what you sow’ is probably caused by the report that the hon. Minister has given. Will the hon. Minister agree that the schools with very poor facilities such as, Limulunga High School are the ones that have recorded very poor pass marks? If he agrees with that statement, what action is he going to take to ensure that the children in these schools are also given an opportunity to do well just like other schools?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, clearly, the quality of education is our concern. As I indicated in the ministerial statement, we are following up on those schools that have been found to be performing poorly and then establish the cause or factors that led to that. After which, we will then take the necessary interventions which will redress the situation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, almost all the schools that recorded a 100 per cent pass rate are Catholic run schools. Why is it that these schools are doing much better than the Government run schools?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, let me clear the misconception that these are predominantly Catholic schools. They are grant-aided schools…

Hon. Opposition Members: Ah!

Professor Lungwangwa: … which are, of course, run by the Catholic management, but at the end of it Government does give them grants. Government looks after the teachers and other aspects so let us not talk in terms of Catholics, but in terms of grant-aided schools. Clearly, there are quite a number of factors which contribute to their good performance. One of them, of course, is good management. As a ministry, we are looking at the factor of management in our public schools so that they can equally raise their performance levels.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, is the hon. Minister admitting that they have failed to manage Government schools and that there is something wrong with our management.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I have not said that we have failed to manage our schools. I have said that improvement is part of life and it is a continuous process. If we identify problems, we have to find the factors that are contributing to the poor performance. If management is one of the contributing factors, then we have to look into appropriate training opportunities or programmes in order to improve the management of our schools. It is a continuous process and it is very common in all educational systems.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, my question was similar to that of Hon. Kambwili. Sir, Charles Lwanga Secondary School, which is, of course, a Catholic School, in Luapula is the only school that recorded a100 per cent pass rate.

Hon. Members: It is grant aided.

Mr Chongo: It is a grant aided Catholic School. Can the hon. Minister explain whether that could be as a result of leakage? I say this because this school had three of its Catholic teachers caught with leaked examination papers.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, the case of the Catholic teachers who were implicated in leaking examination papers is in court and I will not comment on it. However, in general terms, it is a pity that those whom we look up to as the grandmasters of virtue, especially in education, are involved in unacceptable activities like the one being cited by the hon. Member. It is most unfortunate. We hope that those whom we respect as the grandmasters of virtue, who ought to adhere to the highest levels of integrity, especially in matters of academic performance, do as we expect. That is how far I can go given the fact that this matter is in court.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, we have offloaded onto the street about 60,000 school leavers. The Government only has 30,000 school places. What is the Government going to do …

Hon. Members: College places.

Mr Msichili: Sorry, college places. What will the Government do with the other 30,000 who may not find places in these colleges?

Mr Kambwili: They will be pastors.

Laughter

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether the statistics being quoted are correct. We have a number of universities now …

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Professor Lungwangwa: … both public and private. That is a fact. We have a number of teacher training colleges and trades training institutes. The absorption capacity is quite high. The 58,000 grade twelve school leavers we have produced is extremely low even by international standards. As a country and as leaders in this country, we should challenge ourselves to do more so that we can have more children completing high school. I am very sure that a significant number of these will be absorbed in various institutions.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, the hon. Minister has indicated to this House that the percentage of failures in the past examination is quite worrying. I would like to find out from him how much he has in his Budget allocation to ensure that the standard officers are enabled to inspect these schools considering that the results have just been published.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I am not sure whether the hon. Member was following. The failure rate this year is 1.74 per cent. If that is what he calls worrying, then I am at a loss.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, while commending the hon. Minister of Education and his staff for making very good effort in their endeavour to have an educated Zambia, I would like to find out whether the decision made to let pupils move into senior classes without being examined will not affect the teacher/pupil ratio in that there will be less attention paid to the pupils and thereby affecting the quality of their results?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, as indicated in the ministerial statement, the total number of candidates who completed Grade 12 and sat for examinations was 57,129. This should be a concern to all of us, as national leaders, because this number is extremely low. If we take into account that the eligible high school children might probably be two million, we are talking about 2 per cent of those as a proportion completing Grade 12.

Mr Speaker I think, as a nation, we should be very concerned about that. That is why we have taken a decision as a ministry to allow those children who have attained a pass at Grade 9 level to proceed to Grade 10. This will give opportunities to greater numbers of our children to enter high school education. The challenge is on the Government to address issues like the number of classrooms available, the teachers that ought to be trained so that they are able to handle the classrooms and also provision of educational materials. This is what we are doing. In the short term, there may be some overcrowding and constraints, but we are confident that in the medium and long term, it will be extremely advantageous for our nation.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, there is evidence that schools that are run by female head teachers and classrooms taught by female teachers seem to do better than those headed by their male counterparts.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Does the Government have a deliberate policy to ensure that at least 50 per cent of the teachers and head teachers in the country are female?

Mr Speaker, in addition, in Chongwe, school places are taken up by children from other towns because they have higher results than those of the local pupils. However, when these students from other towns get into the higher classes, their performance is so poor as compared to our children in Chongwe. It seems there is something wrong either with the examination process itself or it is an indication that these pupils with very high results do not achieve them genuinely. What is the Government doing to ensure that the problem of the cut off point, which seems not to be attained genuinely, is addressed and that vulnerable children are not disadvantaged?

Mr Speaker: The hon. Minister will answer the first question.

Mrs Masebo: But I asked two questions.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I wish the hon. Member had made reference to the fact that one of our permanent secretaries is a female and she is a very hard working.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: We are very happy with her performance and a number of hon. Members have acknowledged that fact. With regard to the fifty-fifty gender balance in the recruitment of teachers, we have not yet considered that factor, but it is an extremely important one. Indeed, as the hon. Member has acknowledged, there is noticeable improvement in schools that are managed by our female professionals.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: I shall require brevity on the next items on the order paper.

________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

IMPROVEMENT OF TOURISM ATTRACTIONS

198. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo) asked the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources when the Government would improve the following tourist attractions in order to attract more tourists:

(a) Chishimba Falls;

(b) Lumangwe Falls; and

(c) Kalambo Falls. 

The Deputy Minister of Tourisms, Environment and Natural Resources (Mr Mwangala): Mr Speaker, the three water falls in question are part of the Northern Circuit which covers the Northern and Luapula provinces. The Northern Circuit is currently being given priority attention and measures are being taken to open up the area for tourism development.

In fact, my ministry, through the National Heritage Conservation Commission (NHCC), has already started the development of the three water falls in question. The developments are at the following:

(a) Chishimba Falls

Mr Speaker, the following are the works which have been undertaken at Chishimba Falls:

(i) the construction of the boom gate is complete;

(ii) three visitor-shelters have been completed while two are at roof level;

(iii) the concrete slab for the visitor’s information centre has been completed;

(iv) the water bone toilets are at foundation level; and

(v) the access road from Mporokoso turnoff to the site has been completed;

Mr Speaker, it is expected that the above developments will be completed by the end of this year.

(b) Lumangwe Falls

Mr Speaker, access roads from Kawambwa and Mporokoso to Lumangwe Water Falls have been done. In addition, my ministry has put in place a management plan to guide investment in the area; and

(c) Kalambo Falls

Mr Speaker, so far thirty-five kilometres of access roads from Mbala to Kalambo Water Falls has been rehabilitated. In addition, my ministry has also put in place a management plan to guide investments in this area.

Sir, I wish to take this opportunity to inform this House that investment opportunities identified through these management plans have been advertised for private sector investment.

I, therefore, urge hon. Members of this august House to support the Government’s effort and take advantage of the investment opportunities identified above.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, first of all, let me thank the hon. Deputy Minister for trying to give what is supposed to be an elaborate answer.

Sir, if the Government is very serious about tourism, why is it that Chishimba Falls which is just a few metres away from Chishimba Hydro Power Station has no electricity?

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Speaker, it is our wish that all sites be opened up. However, due to resource constraints, we hope that we can achieve this vision progressively. Chishimba Falls is one of the water falls that we are considering in terms of opening up and developing.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, with regard to infrastructure at Lumangwe Falls, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister if the ministry has any plans to renovate the existing infrastructure before the Northern Circuit Plan is completed.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, there is basic infrastructure at most of our water falls as heritage sites, but as the hon. Deputy Minister indicated, our focus is the Northern Circuit which includes Luapula and Northern Province.

I thank you, Sir.

MOTOR VEHICLE REGISTRATION SYSTEM

199. Mr Kambwili (Roan) asked the Minister of Communications and Transport:

(a) how many vehicles had been reported to have had the same registration numbers from 2006 to 2008; and

(b) what the progress was on the computerisation of the motor vehicle registration system.

The Deputy Minister of Communications and Transport (Mr Mubika): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House as follows:

(a) from 2006 to 2008, a total of thirty-five motor vehicles were reported to have had the same registration numbers. The problem of duplicated number plates was common when the registration centre in Ndola which handles registration of motor vehicles on the Copperbelt, Northern, North-Western and Luapula provinces was not computerised.  However, this problem has reduced with the computerisation. Double registration is usually discovered when an applicant is converting manual registration books to computerised registration certificates. Once discovered, the vehicle is subjected to physical inspection conducted by the Road Transport and Safety Agency (RTSA), customs clearance by the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA), and the Anti-Motor Vehicle Theft Department  of the Zambia Police Service before assigning a new registration mark; and

(b) the ministry through RTSA has made progress in computerising the motor vehicles registration function. So far, a total of twenty-four out of twenty-eight stations have been computerised and are linked to Zambia Technology Information System (ZAMTIS), using either Digital Subscriber lines (DSL), offered by ZAMTEL or Fibre Optic Channels offered by Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO). Out of the twenty-four stations that have been computerised, twenty are functional and performing motor vehicle registration functions while the other four stations are not yet functional. The remaining four stations are not computerised due to non availability of connectivity option. These remaining stations will be computerised and linked to ZAMTIS when the alternative connectivity plan is available.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, is the ministry thinking of interconnecting their computer system with the Road Traffic Department at the police to enable them track vehicles that commit traffic offences.

Mr Mubika: Mr Speaker, we have deployed police officers at RTSA offices who are working with the RTSA Department to track motor vehicles which have been stolen.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Mr Speaker, in neighbouring countries, some motor vehicle registration numbers are similar to those obtaining in this country. What steps is your ministry going to take to ensure that this comes to an end?

Mr Mubika: Mr Speaker, if the hon. Member of Parliament has that information, he can bring it forward to our offices so that we see which country has the same registration numbers as Zambia’s. At the moment, we are not aware of that problem, but we will investigate and find out how we can solve it.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Speaker, it is common knowledge that some registration numbers in Zimbabwe are similar to those of Zambia. Is the ministry not aware of this problem which even the Southern African Development Community (SADC) has tried to address?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, we will look into that matter. If indeed there is a problem, we will address it. If there is no problem, then there is no need for concern.

I thank you, Sir.

___________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 89 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – K1,074,393,173,160).

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Chairperson, in the first instance, I want to thank you for this opportunity to wind up debate on this vote. In so doing, I would like to thank all hon. Members of Parliament who debated in support of this vote. I wish to thank even those that may not have had an opportunity to debate.

Mr Chairperson, it is gratifying to note that the House has agreed with Government on prioritising agriculture as a vehicle of poverty reduction and economic growth.

Sir, let me briefly highlight some of the concerns of the hon. Members of Parliament with regard to the 2009 Budget in my ministry. Hon. Scott, I am grateful that having been the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives yourself, you brought some incite on the need for us to balance between consumer and production pressures. Indeed, agriculture is an economic industry that needs Government to create the conducive environment for business to grow.

Sir, the issues of irrigation schemes are noted.  I thought I should mention something about Sefula. Indeed, I think consultations were made but unfortunately, due to land tenure issues, most of the land there has landlords that do not reside there and hence, the lack of utilisation of that very expensive scheme.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to state that indeed, we have taken note of the need for us to support the various irrigation schemes so that they do not only depend on the technical know how, but the issues of maintenance as well and marketing. Diversification…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the
 Chair]

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I had just started talking about the need to support irrigation schemes, not only in terms of knowledge, but also to assist in the issues of maintenance and marketing.

Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Lusaka Central brought up the issue of diversification and that it would remain a pipedream. Clearly, maize is a staple food for the majority of the Zambian people. Therefore, we should not be ashamed to support the availability and affordability of this very important crop. Clearly, there is need to promote other crops such as cassava which we have invested …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us give the hon. Minister a chance to debate.

Dr Chituwo: … in and the demand for cassava is growing because industries and mills have been developed. There is Zambezi Milling in Ndola and Mansa Milling for cassava. In this diversification, the conservation farming is key and all we need to do is to scale up the issues of conservation farming which currently consist of maize, a legume and/or a cash crop such as cotton.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Sing’ombe talked about the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) promoting the commercial farmers. This is far from the truth because FSP, really, has been meant for small scale farmers.

Mr Kambwili: Questions!

Dr Chituwo: In Kalomo, in particular, we targeted 9,448 farmer beneficiaries and we gave 3,939 metric tonnes. We acknowledge that inputs must be on time and that targeting of beneficiaries is important.

Mr Chairperson, there was the issue of the pricing of maize and how it was done because of the fact that some fertiliser was going at K50,000 and the other one at K250,000.

Mr Chairperson, I think that we are missing the point. The beneficiary contributed K50,000 per bag. The price of that fertiliser was K250,000. Therefore, when one adds the beneficiary contribution and the Government’s contribution, the price is the same as that on the commercial scale. Therefore, where is the problem? We do not see any problem in this area.

Mr Chairperson, regarding extension officers, we do agree with the hon. Member. This is why …

Mr Kambwili interrupted.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili, you are making noise from a wrong place. If you are seated in a wrong place, one would expect you to be quiet.

You may continue.

Dr Chituwo: … we are asking the hon. Members of Parliament to support our budget for this year because we have put in so much money in order to strengthen the extension service.

Mr Chairperson, it is very clear from our figures that we targeted a certain number of beneficiaries in Monze. We even sent extra bags of fertiliser there, to be precise, 83.5 metric tonnes. Clearly, the programme cannot support everybody.  Indeed, there was a mistake by enrolling more would be beneficiaries than was allocated.

Mr Chairperson, we have, in fact, been upgrading the training of extension services. Mpika College of Agriculture is now offering Diploma courses, and soon, will Monze. We hope that in future, they may offer degree courses. Further, we do acknowledge the need for linkage between agriculture, forestry and environment. Suffice to say, we have taken note of the comments of the hon. Members of Parliament, and we will strengthen our programmes.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to mention that the issues of marketing have been a concern to the Government. In this regard, the Cabinet approved that I introduce in Parliament, next session, the Agriculture Marketing Bill and the Agriculture Credit Bill, which will take into account the warehouse receipt system. I, therefore hope that will answer some concerns from hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, regarding cultivated land, what Hon. Mulenga said is not true. The statistics that the hon. Member for Chinsali gave that only 6 per cent of arable land is under cultivation are not right. It is actually 14 per cent. That is not to say that we do not need to do more. However, I think we must be factual when giving these figures out. Of this 14 per cent, the small scale farmer produces 60 per cent of the maize we need and 40 per cent comes from the commercial farmers. Therefore, one can see the contribution by the small scale farmer.

Mr Chairperson, I must state that investment in agriculture must be consistent in order to contribute to wealth creation and poverty reduction.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: We now move on to consider individual items.

Hon. Members: The other hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives.

The Deputy Chairperson: I am sorry, hon. Minister.

Laughter

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Machila): Mr Chairperson, I thank you. The confusion is partly due to Hon. Kambwili.

Laughter

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, in the interest of time and brevity, I will just touch on a couple of issues that were raised. One of them regarding restocking was raised by Hon. Singombe.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that the restocking programmes are distinguished as there are two different ones. One is a Government programme, which was designed to give immediate response to animals lost due to diseases as they are of national economic importance. The other, a private initiative, a Heifer International Programme, is a community driven non-governmental organisation with a pass on programme whereby, as a calf is born, it is passed on.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Mwiimbu spoke about the need to manufacture drugs in Zambia. This is an issue that is subject to debate. At this stage, it may be actually more in our interest to simply import them in view of the expenses that it would necessitate to have them manufactured here.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Chinsali, Hon. Mulenga, spoke about the Mbesuma Ranch. I noted that he mentioned that it is, in fact, being renovated and that there are plans to undertake stocking in the course of this year.

Lastly, Hon. Muntanga, who is not present, mentioned that only 13,000 cattle had been vaccinated in Mazabuka. I would like to correct that statement. Actually, over 63,000 cattle were vaccinated.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Dr Scott made a brief reference that ultimate aquaculture is cultivating ililombas. That, I will not venture into.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

 Vote 89/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/04 ─ (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives ─ Agriculture Department ─ K15, 058,459,592).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 6, Programme 10, Activity 02 ─ Survey and Promotion of Water Harvesting Technologies. This year, no money has been allocated for this activity and yet last year, K200,000,000 was allocated. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether by now we know how to harvest water. Furthermore, what have we put in place to show that, indeed, last year’s allocation was used for the intended purpose?

Mr Kalenga hesitated to stand.

The Deputy Chairperson: Would you like the hon. Member to repeat the question, if you did not understand?

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 6, Programme 10, Activity 02 ─ Survey and Promotion of Water Harvesting Technologies. I alluded to the fact that this activity has not been budgeted for this year. Have you attained the technological advancement that has enabled you to start harvesting water?

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Chairperson, the decrease is due to some activities not having allocations in this year’s budget. For example, workshops and study tours in irrigation, local and international production of irrigation work, whereas, the budget requests management meetings for irrigation, support demonstration and field days.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, for any organisation to succeed, staff development must be a continuous process. May I find out from the hon. Minister why the ministry has not budgeted for staff development.

The Deputy Chairperson: On what programme are you?

Mr Kambwili: Unit 1, Programme 5, Activity 03 − Staff Development.

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Dr Chituwo): Mr Chairperson, the lack of a provision to this vote is because of the funds that we have at hand.

 I thank you, Sir.
Vote 89/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE86/06 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Veterinary and Livestock Development – K38, 037,672,680).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 10, Activity 01 − Cordon Line Construction − K100, 000,000. May I know which Cordon Line this K100,000, 000 has been allocated to? I am aware that one has to come from Zambezi to Sesheke and the other one from Kazungula and this money is not enough for these projects. So, which short Cordon Line is being referred to?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, mostly, this amount is for the monitoring and supervision of the construction works. Therefore, it will be used to purchase fuel, lubricants and payment of allowances.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson monitoring falls under Unit 2, Activity 02 − Cordon Line and Maintenance and Monitoring − K20,000,000, but I am talking about the K100,000,000 in Activity 01.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, actually, what we did was to combine Activities 01 and 02 because of the limited resources.

 I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, we have bemoaned…

The Deputy Chairperson: What Programme is that?
Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, it is programme 08 − Monitoring and Evaluation. We have bemoaned the lack of proper monitoring of diseases in as far as livestock is concerned. Last year, we said the budget allocation was too small. Can the hon. Minister state why they have further reduced it to K50,000,000 from the K76,000,000 that was allocated last year.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, we are a bit lost because Programme 8 is for Animal Disease Control.

 I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is under Unit 01, Programme 8, Activity 01 − Monitoring and Evaluating Livestock Disease Control and Production Programmes − K50,000,000. Last year, it was K76,560,000, but it has been reduced to K50,000,000. He wants to know why it has been reduced.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, as I stated earlier, it is due to limited resources. We had to budget within what we had.

 I thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/10 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/11 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/12 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/13 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/14 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/15– (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Veterinary and Livestock Development Research Stations – K7,499,600,00).

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, the total for this head is 250 per cent above the total for the head last year. A similar ratio applies for the Fisheries Research Head that we have just passed. Is this a stealth creation of a new ministry or what is the rationale behind these enormous increases in these times of great hardship? There is no recession here, hon. Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, confine your response to this particular head.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, we are trying to scale up the research in fisheries, hence, the increment. Last year, we had specific institutions that were doing this research.

 I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister got the head wrong. I believe we are discussing Vote 84/15.

The Deputy Chairperson: It is Vote 89/15.

Dr Scott: Yes, Head 89/15 – Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Veterinary and Livestock Development Research Stations and not fisheries.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is right.

Dr Scott: Not fisheries. He was talking about fisheries.

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you guide us Dr Scott.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, Vote 89/15, page 1131, …

The Deputy Chairperson: With a departmental total of K7,499,600,000?

Dr Scott: That is correct, Sir.

Mr Mulonga: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, it was just a slip of the tongue. Since a new ministry is being introduced, we would like to scale up the research in that field.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 89/15 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/16 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Copperbelt Province – Provincial Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K15,422,723,842).

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 03, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Office Administration – K166,200,000. This budget is mainly based on the financial recession and almost all the Head totals have been reduced. However, I tend to wonder how this activity can have an increment from K29,000,000 to K166,200,000. What is the rationale behind this abnormal increment?

The Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Mr Kalenga): Mr Chairperson, the reason for the increase at provincial level is that we have moved money to the provinces instead of it being at the headquarters.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 10, Programme 2, Activity 03 – Provincial Show and Activity 04 – Copperbelt Agricultural, Commercial and Mining Show – Kitwe – K300,000,000. There is nothing provided to this activity and yet there was an allocation last year.

The Deputy Chairperson: I beg your pardon. Are you talking about Vote 89/16? Which programme?

Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, Programme 2, on page 1137.

The Deputy Chairperson: I see.

Ms Imbwae: If you look at Programme 2, Activity 03 – Provincial Show, last year, there was an allocation of K10,000,000, but this year there is nothing. Do the provinces indicate that there will be no provincial show or have they merged the activity with Activity 04 – Copperbelt Agricultural, Commercial and Mining Show – Kitwe – K300,000,000 which has an increment from last year? I need your help, Chair.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, we have decentralised the management of agricultural shows and merged the two activities.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 89/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/17 –  (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Copperbelt Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K10,193,528,596)

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 1141, …

Hon. Government Member interjected

Mr Kambwili: He has even confused me.

Laughter

Hon. Member: I will explain to him.

Mr Kambwili: No.

May I have clarification on Programme 17, Activity 05 – Extension Visits to Fishers and Fish Farmers. This year, there is no provision for this activity. Does it mean that fish farmers have stopped existing?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, last year we trained twenty farmers …

Mr Kambwili: Visits!

Mr Mulonga: … in fish farming and visited them. This year, we expect them to extend this training to the others.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: To visit the others!
Vote 89/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/20 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/21 - (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Southern Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K15,191,007,374)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 1189, if the hon. Minister is there – Wapeza?.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair.

Laughter

Hon. Government Member: Za yellow!

Mr Lubinda: … Unit …

The Deputy Chairperson: Programme.

Mr Lubinda: … 5, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Programme.

Mr Lubinda: The Unit before the Programme otherwise they will go to a wrong programme. Unit 5, Programme 10, Activities 04 – Promotion of Agricultural Mechanisation and 05 – Promotion of Farm Power and Mechanisation Practices.

 Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why they have budgeted at variance with the policy statement of the President that this year they shall promote mechanised farming and yet as we can see, from Unit 5 – Monze District, there is no provision, whatsoever, for mechanisation of farming in the district. How do they intend to fulfil the President’s policy statement?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, as we speak, we have tractors in our workshop being assembled. They are not being purchased and what is remaining is implementation.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I understand the answer given by the hon. Minister very clearly, however, I would like to bring your attention to the nomenclature of the vote I am referring to which does not say, like the hon. Minister is suggesting, purchase of tractors. It says, Promotion of Farm Power and Mechanisation Practices, which means all the activities to do with the promotion of the utilisation of the tractors that he says he already has. How will they achieve that when they have not provided any money to support those activities? That is the question and not whether or not they have procured the tractors, but whether they have the money to ensure that they can promote utilisation of the machines.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, the first thing in promotion is to have the tools with which to work. Now within the operations of the colleges, this will be done and so we do not need to have money here.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 01, Programme 12, Fisheries Development – (PRP), Activity 03 – Fisheries Surveillance and Re-Enforcement. It is common knowledge that every year there is a fish ban so that we can allow the fish to breed. My worry is that there is no allocation for fish surveillance and re-enforcement of the fish ban. How are they going to achieve the monitoring of the fish ban?

Mr Mulonga: On this activity, last year we bought about thirty-eight boats to equip our officers for surveillance and at the same time formed what we call the village based surveillance teams. What we anticipate this year is only for the districts to monitor them and so we do not need to put much money there.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, on Unit 07, Programme 12, Activity 05 – Support to Sinazongwe Fisheries Training Centre, how does the hon. Minister of Livestock and fisheries hope that this training centre shall run when they have cut out support to it as is indicated when last year this House approved a sum of K174, 334,844? Are they shutting down the Sinazongwe Fisheries Training Centre?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, the programme is under the management of the district. Therefore, management and surveillance will be done by the district.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Kambwili: To the contrary, Sir, this is a district vote, which has no money allocated to it. Therefore, if it has no money, how is it going to monitor? Above all, if you look at Unit 07, Programme 12, Activity 09 – Joint Fisheries Management of Shared Water Bodies, I suppose these are shared between our country and the neighbouring countries. How are we going to monitor when there is no allocation in the Yellow Book? Can the hon. Minister confirm that they were too lazy to provide the budgetary allocations to these important activities?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, to the contrary, under the activity in question, what we have there is a decrease in some activities and not a total cut off. That is what I meant. You are following one activity, but we have three there.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, institutions are established by the Government and it comes to this House requesting an allocation of funds and it is the duty of this House to ensure that Government institutions continue to run unless Government informs the nation that they have closed them down. The questions that are being raised here are not questions of reductions.

Mr Chairperson, I beg that you follow the programme that I am referring to and this is, for the sake of the minister, on page 1194. Vote 89/21, Unit 07, Programme 12 – Fisheries Development – (PRP), under the district of Sinazongwe.

Mr Chairperson, We have looked at this budget and we notice with dismay that Sinazongwe Fisheries Training Centre, which is provided for at Activity 05 –Fisheries Surveillance and Re-Enforcement, as well as Activity 09 – Joint Fisheries Management of Shared Water Bodies, which had provisions of K174,334,844 and K24,000,000, respectively, last year are going without any allocation, at all, this year. Does this mean that the centre has been closed down and that the Joint Fisheries Management of Shared Water Bodies in Sinazongwe has discontinued?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, the question is clear and I can see what the hon. Member wants the hon. Minister to explain. Why have you not provided for those activities this year?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, …

Mr Kambwili: Ikala iwe bambi basuke watubepa sana.

Mr Mulonga: Here there are reduced activities, but there is an allocation in administration and the district is also under the province. Therefore, some activities have been merged with the province.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: We cannot continue on this vote. We have to proceed. I will give a chance to Hon. Muntanga to say something.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, yesterday I said there was no proper funding to fisheries when we have an hon. Minister for Livestock and Fisheries. Where there is no budget for any activity, the hon. Minister must tell us whether they have or have not closed. Do not talk about reducing where there is nothing to be reduced. We have permanent secretaries within this building and we must get those facts. Why should the new ministry not have a proper answer?

Interruptions

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, what we have stated is the correct position. We will do the administration as provided.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, one of the major constitutional functions of Parliament is to approve the national budget. In so doing, hon. Members are provided answers by the Executive so that as we approve, we know what we are giving money to and we know why we are denying others money. I would like to draw your attention to what the hon. Minister referred us to earlier where he said money is allocated in the province.

Mr Chairperson, like I said, we have studied the budget and we note, with great concern, that even the suggestion that money is at the province is inaccurate, it is not correct. Sir, on page 1179 which is referring to the provincial agriculture co-ordinating office Unit 6, Fisheries Unit, there is no money for either Support to Sinazongwe Fisheries Training Centre or Joint Fisheries Management of Shared Water Bodies. Proceeding without getting an answer is allowing our colleagues to pass the budget without us understanding it and that, therefore, is not correct procedure for this House.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, if I give you more time, is it possible for you to get answers to those questions while we proceed to the other votes?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, of course, we understand your guidance, but we are …

Mr Kambwili interjected.

Mr Mulonga: Can you shut up!

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, can you withdraw that statement.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw.

The Deputy Chairperson: Thank you, can you proceed.

Interruptions

Mr Mulonga: What we are saying …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I have asked him to withdraw and he has done so.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! He has withdrawn.

Can you continue, please.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, what we are saying is that the workers in each and every district are on the Government payroll. So, it does not mean that whenever we go to do surveillance there has to be an extra allowance. Sometimes we rely on the actual payment of monthly salaries for these workers. Even if we do not include the extra allowances, there are administration salaries and, therefore, our workers still have to perform.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Vote 89/21 ─ Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Southern Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office – K15,191,007,374 stand part of the Estimates put and the House voted.

Ayes – (62)

Mr A. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr R. C. Banda
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chella
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Mr Chisanga
Dr Chituwo
Mr Daka
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kachimba
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Dr Kalumba
Ms C. M. Kapwepwe
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Machila
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Ms Masebo
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mukuma
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Munkombwe
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Musosha
Mr Mutati
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mwaanga
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Mr Namulambe
Mr Nkhata
Mr Pande
Mr Phiri
Dr Puma
Mr Shakafuswa
Mr Shawa
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sichilima
Mr Sikazwe
Mr Silavwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Tembo
Ms Tembo

Tellers for Ayes: Mr Syakalima 
                              Ms Masebo

Noes – (41)

Mr Bwalya
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Dr Chishimba
Mr Chitonge
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chota
Mr Hachipuka
Mr Hamusonde
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kambwili
Ms Kapata
Mr Kapeya
Mr Kasoko
Mr Katuka
Mr Lubinda
Ms Masiye
Mr Matongo
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Msichili
Mr Mukanga
Mr C. Mulenga
Mr Muntanga
Mrs Musokotwane
Mr Muyanda
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mweemba
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr D. Mwila
Mr Nkombo
Mr Nsanda
Mr Ntundu
Mrs Phiri
Dr Scott
Mr Sejani
Mr Simuusa
Mr Sing’ombe
Mr Syakalima

Tellers for Noes: Mr Mangani 
                            Mrs Mwamba

Question accordingly agreed to.

Vote 89/21 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/22 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/25 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Western Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office K9, 402,333,483).

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to solicit an explanation from the hon. Minister on Unit 03, Programme 11 Activity 03 – Construction and Rehabilitation of Camp Houses. Why is there no allocation to this vote for the construction, especially, on the rehabilitation of camp houses and yet there are agricultural camps in Western Province that desperately require rehabilitations. What is the reason for leaving out the allocation when last year there was K190, 000, 000 allocated to this activity?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairman, on that Activity, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Minister, please, do not be distracted; and you people on his right, give him time to answer. He gets distracted very easily, so give him time to answer.

Laughter

Mr Mulonga: The amount for the renovations which was supposed to be used last year was just released in December and renovations are still going on. We are going to do the reassessment when we finish. Those that will not be renovated will be included in the next budget.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, under Unit 02, Programme 11, Activity 01 – Farmer Facilitation – K104, 361,833. I would like to find out why we have a reduction from K240, 000,000 when farmers in Western Province would need facilitation for them to execute farming properly.
Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairman, on that programme, we did the facilitation last year and some of the activities are not repetitive. Where this was done, we have reduced. That is why we have reduced the amount allocated this year.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 89/26 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/27 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/28 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/29 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/30 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 89/31 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Luapula Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office  – K8,992,744,026 ).

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 12, Activity 02…

Hon. Government Member: Page!

Mr D. Mwila: You are not Chairman.

The Deputy Chairperson: Page 1319, Programme 12.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes, on Page 1307, Unit 01, Programme 12, Activity 02….

The Deputy Chairperson: What is your question?

Mr D. Mwila: I just want clarification from the hon. Minister on Unit 01, Programme 12, Activity 02 – Rehabilitation and Electrification of Chembe Market – K100, 000,000, I thought…

The Deputy Chairperson: Hold on! We are dealing with Head 89/31.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson: And you said Programme 12.

Mr D. Mwila: Programme 12.

The Deputy Chairperson: Fisheries Development.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes, Fisheries Department.

The Deputy Chairperson: Activity!

Mr D. Mwila: Activity 02.

The Deputy Chairperson: Joint Management Meetings of Shared Water Bodies…

Hon. Government Members: Ah!

Mr D. Mwila: It is on page 1307.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, it cannot be. We are dealing with Head 89/31.

Mr D. Mwila: Yes.

The Deputy Chairperson: And…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Okay, I see your point.

You can continue.

Mr D. Mwila: Thank you, Sir.

 Mr Chairperson, this programme is about the rehabilitation and electrification of Chembe Market and they have budgeted for K100 million. I thought that this market falls under the Ministry of Local Government and Housing. Can the hon. Minister explain?

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, this market is just on the shores of the Luapula River and most of the people that are found there are fish traders. That is why it is under our custody.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, under Unit 02, Programme 12, Activity 03 – Fisheries Surveillance and Enforcement…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I prefer it the other way. Page 1309…

Mr Kambwili: Page 1309, Unit 02, Programme 12, Activity 03 – Fisheries Surveillance and Enforcement. In view of the fact that Samfya and Chiengi districts are predominantly fishing towns, how is this ministry going to manage the fish ban without providing any money for its surveillance?
Mr Mulonga: Sir, I said earlier that we bought thirty-eight boats and I distributed two boats, of which, one went to Chiengi. Previously, we did not have enough personnel, thus, last year we recruited personnel in the Fisheries Department and formed the village based committees to help us curb the crime of those who do not observe the fish ban. We have equipped personnel who are already on a salary. They will be doing their normal duty.

Thank you, Sir.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, under Unit 02, Programme 12, Activity 02 – Capture Fisheries Development and Management – K20, 000,000 and Activity 03 – Fisheries Surveillance and Enforcement, these are not provided for. How are you going to enforce the fish ban without any resources such as fuel?

The Deputy Chairperson: I thought that, that was the question the hon. Minister had just answered. Can you repeat the answer.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, I said that we already have personnel. Under administration, we have a general vote for fuel which they can easily use, but other logistics are already provided for.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Sir, this is the reason we tend to differ with this hon. Minister. There is a provision here under fisheries which specifically talks about fisheries surveillance and enforcement and the vote he is talking about is under office administration. How do you get money from office administration and take it to enforcing the fish ban? Can we get a proper answer over these things?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Machila: Mr Chairperson, under field operations, there has been additional provision which has gone up scaled from K27 million to K350 million and, where necessary, we shall supplement or vary.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, under Unit 04, Programme 10, Activity 04 – Farmer Registration, it is also not funded this year. Does this mean that farmers in Luapula Province will not register this year?

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, the farmer registration exercise is 85 per cent in progress. It has been done in some districts and it is on going in others.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, under Unit 01, Programme 12, Activity 02 – Rehabilitation and Electrification of Chembe Market – K100,000,000, the answer that the hon. Minister gave was not satisfactory. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether what determines which ministry under which a market falls is the produce that is sold there. That is, for instance, if somebody is selling fish, he falls under the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, if he is selling shoe laces, he falls under the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and if he is selling vehicles, he falls under the Ministry of Works and Supply.

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member is well vested to talk about this place and he knows very well that, that is where the control of fish takes place. That is why we are involved in that market.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, on Pages 1313, 1315 and 1317, I want to understand that fish development…

Hon. Government Members: Where?

Mr Muntanga:  Under Unit 04, Programme 12 – Fisheries Development – (PRP) there is a provision of K220, 000, 000, at the same time, Under Units 05 and 07, Programme 12– Fisheries Development – (PRP), there is only K10, 000,000 for each. May I know why where there are water bodies there is an allocation of only K10 million for fish development and in places like Kawambwa where there are none there is an allocation of  K220 million for the same activity.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! What you want is an answer. If he is able to give the answer, let us get it. The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives may answer.

Interruptions

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, that has been noted. In fact, this is supposed to be the other way round for this body and if that is noted, …

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning may want to assist you.

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, little work is required where there are large volumes of water. For example, in Kawambwa, where there is no water and people want to have fish, infrastructure like water bodies have to be created.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I seek clarification on this matter. The hon. Minister responsible for this ministry has acknowledged that there is an error.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear!

Mr Lubinda: Could the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning tell us who gave him that information if the hon. Minister originating this Budget contradicts it.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: We are approving the Budget for the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives and not the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is the Minister of Finance and National Planning who eventually gives the final authority. That is why he should clarify.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Long live the Chair!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, if it is true that there is less money allocated for areas with water bodies,  how come last year,  under Unit 05, Programme 12 –Fisheries Development, there was a Budget of K162 million and this year there is K10 million? Under Unit 06, Programme 12 –Fisheries, where there are water bodies, there is K173 million. Under Units 05 and 07, under Programme 12 –Fisheries, where there are water bodies, there is K10 million for each. Under Unit 04, Programme 12 –Fisheries, where there are no water bodies, there is an allocation of K200 million. I want to know why these variances because whenever we talk about fish restocking, we will be referring to places where there are water bodies. Why have they budgeted less where there are water bodies? That is the explanation I need.

Interruption

Hon. Opposition Members: Let us walk out.

Mr Muntanga: Let him explain.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Dr Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, the activities vary from place to place every year. In the case of Kawambwa, anyone who has been to Mongu would agree that fishermen go straight into the rivers and catch the fish. If you go to places like Kaoma, this is where a lot of infrastructure has to be done to create the water ponds. The explanation is very clear.

Interruption

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I will put the question.

Vote 89/31 is ordered to start part of the Estimates.

Vote 89/32 is ordered to start part of the Estimates.

Mrs Masebo stood up.
Mrs Masebo: Debate.

The Deputy Chairperson: What are you asking to debate on?

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Vote 89/32.

The Deputy Chairperson: I have already ruled on that.

Mr Masebo: We have been standing.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have passed that. Let us go to Head 89/33.

VOTE 89/33 – (Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives – Lusaka Province – District Agriculture Co-ordinating Office - K5,130,250,590).

Mrs Masebo: Sir, we were standing, but you did not just see us. On page 1320 Programme two …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Members, it was not intentional that I did not see you. However, since a decision has been made, we cannot go back.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I will then go to page 1321on programme 2.

The Deputy Chairperson: Is that in relation to Head 89/32?

Mrs Masebo: Yes. I had two questions.

The Deputy Chairperson: We have gone past that.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Deputy Chairperson: I am on Head 89/33.

Mrs Masebo: I do have questions even on that Head.

The Deputy Chairperson: That is alright. You may continue.

Mrs Masebo: May I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 11, Activity 05 – Farmer Registration and Unit 3, Programme 10, Activity 04 – Farmer  Registration. These have got no allocation this year. However, I am aware that in our province, the farmer registration has not been completed. I wonder if the hon. Minister is abandoning this very important exercise which will actually help them in policy direction.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, it is true that the farmer registration exercise has not been completed, but we have enough numbers with which to work for the 2009/2010 farming season.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on the Lusaka Disrict Unit which is extensively Lusaka City, under Unit 1, Programme 11, Activity 02 – Field Operations – K225,000,000, up from only K4,500,000, last year, and Activity 03 – Construction and Rehabilitation of Camp Houses – K250,000,000. Where may I witness these agricultural activities in Lusaka City, especially as the Lusaka City Council has a habit of slashing anybody’s maize?

Laughter

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, we have a programme of peri urban development of irrigation which requires this amount of money to be set up.
I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 01, Programme 14, Activity 06 – Tsetse and Trypanosomiasis Surveys and Surveillance – K2, 355,556 …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

 Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended I wanted to solicit an explanation on Unit 02, Programme 14, Activity 06 – Tsetse and Trypanosomosis Surveys and Surveillance –  K2,355,556 .

Mr Chairperson, this amount was allocated for the District Agricultural Co-ordinating Office in Lusaka District. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister why, last year, money for this activity was allocated at the provincial office at an amount much more than K2 million.

This year, they are allocating at a district level, instead of a province, as indicated, for a similar activity under Unit 3, Programme 2, Activity 02 – Surveillance of Crop Pests and Diseases – K9.00. Why have they only allocated K9.00 and not K900,000.00 or K90.00…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Lubinda: … when they are only allocating K2 million …
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

The question relates to Vote 89/33 and if I got him clearly, it is Programme 14 and Activity 06. Could the hon. Minister address himself to that question.

Mr Lubinda: K9.00!

Mr Mulonga: Mr Chairperson, this is just for logistical purposes. The …

Dr Scott interjected.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister, do not listen to them!

Mr Mulonga: … K2,355,556.00 is for logistical purposes.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulonga: We are not talking about K9.00.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 10, Activity 08 – Promotion of Farm Management Skills. If we are going to talk about farmers yet there is no money allocated for promoting farm management skills, where are we going to get the skills to manage the farms?

Mr Mulonga:  Mr Chairperson, we already have a mechanised unit under the ministry which is defused into agriculture. Therefore, we already have the skills.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 89/33 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – Headquarters – K52, 988,211,524.00).

The Minister of Commerce Trade and Industry (Mr Mutati): Mr Chairperson, may I express my gratitude to you for giving me the opportunity to deliver the policy statement on my ministry’s 2009 Budget Estimate.

Sir, I present this statement at a time of great uncertainty in the world economy of which Zambia is not an exception. The developments that are taking place in the world economy demonstrate the vulnerability of our economy to external shocks. Consequently, the mining sector and other key sectors have been adversely affected.

Mr Chairperson, cognisance of these unprecedented challenges, our goal is to build a vibrant competitive and diversified economy founded on hard work and the spirit of entrepreneurship.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Can we consult quietly.

Mr Mutati: My ministry anchored on the 2009 Budget Theme, “Enhancing Growth through Competitiveness and Diversification,” remains central to the refusal to surrender to this crisis. In every crisis, there is opportunity.

Sir, the mission statement of my ministry which will propel us in 2009 and beyond is:

“To effectively and efficiently facilitate and promote sustainable growth, development and competitiveness of the commercial, trade and industrial sectors in order to enhance socio-economic development”.

Sir, guided by the mission statement, my ministry will offer a vigorous response by creating opportunities for more jobs and wealth generation through:

(a) attracting local and foreign investment into the economy by creating a conducive and competitive business and investment environment;

(b) improving access to financial resources by empowering local businesses;

(c) diversifying the economy through industrialising and value adding opportunities via the accelerated implementation of the multi-facility economic zones (MFEZ) programme, and rural development; and

(d) deepening multilateral regional and bilateral economic integration and enhanced trade facilitation.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to elaborate on the above points.

(a) Attracting local and foreign investment into the economy by creating a conducive and competitive business and investment atmosphere.

In order to attract both local and foreign investment, my ministry is committed to creating a favourable business environment for the participation of the local and foreign private sector.

Sir, the Private Sector Development Reform Programme which drives the reforms made some positive contributions in improving the business environment in 2008. Some of the notable ones include the reduced time to register a business and the increased number of businesses registered. A total of 9,414 business names, 6,284 local companies and thirty-two foreign companies were registered in 2008. The policy framework for the implementation of the Private Public Partnerships (PPPs) was approved and an inventory of the business licences in Zambia was completed which showed that there are 520 licences in existence.

Mr Chairperson, in recognition of the achievements, according to the World Bank doing business report, Zambia’s ranking in terms of the ease of business has improved with it now ranked as number seven in Sub-Sahara African.

Sir, the Private Sector Development Programme will in 2009 continue to build on the momentum and achievements of 2008 by implementing reforms that will result in the reduction in the cost of doing business and making Zambian businesses competitive. This will be through business licensing reform that will remove unnecessary costly licencing processes and procedures, establishment of an integrated electronic system for key business institutions such as Patents and Company Registration Office (PACRO), Zambia Development Agency (ZDA), Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) and increase access to finance for micro small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) through the Credit Guarantee Schemes.

Mr Chairperson, under the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission (CEEC), Government will continue to improve access to empowerment fund…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us give him time to debate.

Mr Mutati: …with a view to ensuring equity in the empowerment of Zambian citizens as they engage in sustainable economic activities. We are indebted to the hon. Members of Parliament for their invaluable contribution aimed at simplifying procedures of access and coverage of the fund.
Mr Chairperson, in order to ensure equity in accessing these funds, Government allocated an initial of K10 billion to each province and K40 billion has been proposed in this year’s Budget. Our determination is to ensure that CEEC transforms the entrepreneur landscape by reaching out to those that have remained outside the conventional banking system.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry, through the Triangle of Hope (ToH) initiative, has been focusing on the creation …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am a bit uncomfortable. Can the hon. Minister please read properly and not at that kind of speed.

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, I will repeat. My ministry, through the ToH initiative has been focusing on the creation of the Multi-Facility Economic Zones for both export and domestic-oriented industries. The development of the first two zones in Lusaka and Chambeshi has reached an advanced stage.

Mr Chairperson, following the signing of the US$900 million worth of investment promotion and protection agreements, the developers of the Chambishi MFEZ have made progress on infrastructure development notably the construction of a Copper Smelter, water facilities and a power sub-station. The Chambishi MFEZ is envisaged to create at least 6,000 direct jobs.

Sir, as regards the Lusaka South MFEZ, I wish to inform you that the master plan is expected to be concluded soon to facilitate the commencement of works before the end of this year.

Mr Chairperson, In addition, the focus of the ministry will be to take advantage of the infrastructure development to be created in the tourism and agriculture sectors, especially in the rural areas as key platforms for attracting increased investment which will drive jobs and wealth creation.
Mr Chairperson, further, in order to enhance investment promotion activities in an integrated manner involving the private sector, my ministry has allocated K2 billion in this year’s Budget.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will continue to seek greater market access for products originating from Zambia through active participation in multilateral, regional and bilateral trade negotiations. Over the last five years, the performance of the external sector including the non-traditional exports has continued to grow thereby contributing to the increased foreign exchange earnings of the country.

Mr Chairperson, non-traditional exports registered 12.9 per cent growth in 2008 compared to 2007 to reach US$933.2 million. In order to enhance the performance of the external sector, Government will also continue to negotiate for the lowering of tarrifs, elimination of non-tariff barriers and domestic support in developed markets.

Mr Chairperson, Government is also working on the comprehensive programme to develop the North-South Corridor within the context of regional integration. Government will host a donor’s pledging conference in Lusaka in April, 2009 to attract infrastructure investment in the corridor as a basis for deepening regional integration and enhancing competitiveness of the region.

Sir, with regard to the Common Market for East and Southern African Countries (COMESA) integration agenda, the aim is to launch a Customs Union in 2009, and make a one stop border post operational.

In the Southern African Development Community (SADC), the Free Trade Area (FTA) was launched in August, 2008. In 2009, technical work will continue to focus on defining the parameters of the SADC Customs Union which is expected to be launched in 2010. As Government, we will continue to sensitise the private sector and the general public on the development on regional integration.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry will also continue to be actively involved in the World Trade Organisation (WTO) Doha Development Agenda negotiations at both technical and ministerial levels.

Mr Chairperson, in parallel to the engagement at WTO, we are negotiating with the European Commission to conclude a new economic partnership agreement that will provide for fair and equitable trade and enhance development to support Zambia within the context of the African Carribean Pacific (ACP) countries.

Mr Chairperson, I now proceed to present my Ministerial Budget for 2009 and appeal to the hon. Members of Parliament to support it if we are to realise the theme of, “Enhancing Growth Throw Competitiveness and Diversification”.

Mr Chairperson, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo (Pemba): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me an opportunity to debate the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. I wish to state clearly that unless domestic production is addressed constructively, we will continuously be ineffective. I have no doubt that the ministry is reasonably structured.  I have confidence in the hon. Minister and the new Permanent Secretary. I will bet that he is the only planner that I am aware of …

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: …who is now at the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry. I am talking about the original planners. You were not here in Lusaka, therefore, listen.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Who are you addressing?

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I want to address three things. I would like the hon. Minister in his reply to tell us whether the plan to revisit and change certain clauses in the ZDA Act will be dealt with this year. I am aware that a consultant to this effect was actually here and appointed to deal with that aspect. The current law, although we passed it in this Chamber, still requires a lot of adjustments to make it user friendly, particularly to the emerging Zambian investors.

Mr Chairperson, I also hope that the CEEC Act will be revised in order to take into consideration the experiences we have undergone since it was implemented.

Mr Chairperson, still on the same issue, I am aware that last year, K150 billion was allocated to CEEC. I am also aware that K90 billion went to the provinces and up to now is not being utilised to the expectation of the hon. Minister and any well-meaning Zambian. The hon. Minister advised us that of the K60 billion, which remained out of last year’s allocation of K150 billion, K20 billion was used to start the commission and K40 billion is still available. This makes it K80 billion for us to access this year.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say what I have stated before, we must define the empowerment Act. It must be done in such a way that it caters for two or three sets of investors. Firstly, it must cater for the rural youth and woman. Secondly, it must cater for the well-informed district provincial dweller and finally, the major city upcoming investor. For people, in major cities, it is not a very big problem to access this money and register themselves with PACRO.

 Hon. Minister, I do not think that they need as much attention from the empowerment agency and your ministry as the people at provincial district level do. More importantly, it is the rural people, in my opinion, that this empowerment agency must first target and who need our effort most. If I must tell you, the current efforts are helping. I can only remind you of what you heard in the amphitheatre the last time we met. Please define this money in such a way that the rural woman and youth can benefit. You, being the elitists, in consultation with the relevant ministries, which are ground on the earth with women and youth, the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services, must have a greater say in dealing with this matter.

Mr Chairperson, the use of this commission regarding the provincial permanent secretaries is in my opinion, a disaster. I would like to see these two ministries use the basic rules they used when the youth fund and the women’s club fund was in existence. The basis is already there. The only change will be how to get these people organised and make them a priority for this empowerment fund. For the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry and the empowerment agency to do this, I can bet that two years down the road, we will still be talking about poverty in rural areas. At best, we will have wretched laws in the districts, provinces and more importantly in the major cities, like Lusaka and the Copperbelt, and we will be behaving like an empowerment agency enriching the already rich. I think that we should look at this critically.

Hon. Minister, when I look at the establishment of your ministry, I believe you can cope. However, you need a lot of supervision.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair.

Mr Matongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance.

Mr Chairperson, the empowerment commission should be brought to where the people are. Let us involve the constituency offices, councils and rural people. You will see how this money will alleviate poverty in the rural areas. In any case, I sympathise with you, hon. Minister, because unless the Ministry of Works and Supply can work on the roads, even that may not work.  I, however, do not want to be the devil’s advocate. I want to be optimistic and give you the benefit of doubt. Part of that money should be administered by the Ministry of Youth, Sport and Child Development and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services.

Furthermore, hon. Minister, when you respond by telling us about the economic partnership agreements, you could have sorted out the development agenda component in those economic partnership agreements. Without the development agenda, we will remain poor. Have we addressed the loss of revenue when we make ourselves open to the northern markets? How are we going to recover those revenues? As you can see, in this budget there is cutting, cutting and more cutting, and soon, even our hair will be cut. We will all remain bold.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Do you have hair, yourself?

Mr Matongo: We should, therefore ensure that we do what needs to be done to protect ourselves. We believe that you will able to brief us with the latest when you reply to this situation.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about COMESA and SADC. The two, in my view and in the opinion of those who are well-informed, can co-exist. I would like to encourage you, hon. Minister, to keep them co-existing. However, you should separate them in such a way that when one deals with trade, the other deals with regional integration, where, in fact, big projects will be shared equally.

Hon. Minister, not doing this , I would like to inform you that Zimbabwe, Zambia and Malawi will be the true constellation states of South Africa. We shall be the bottom market. However, if you separate the trade issues and the regional investments, we will have some legs to stand on, for we still have enough natural resources to go on with.

Mr Chairperson, projects such as having a grid from Zambia to Kenya, I think, is one of the things we should be doing. However, do not drag it for too long. We have lived enough in this confusion. Please separate them so that we know which organisation does what and also pay your annual fees.

I can get a compliment from the Chair for time management …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Matongo: …as it appears to be the fashion.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about one real issue. To attain fair and equitable trade, means effectively dealing with WTO and the Development Agenda from the African perspective.

Mr Chairperson, I think I have managed my time very well.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Yes, you have done well. You deserve to be commended.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to this Vote. From the outset, I would like to say that I support the budget line for this ministry. I will be very brief because I want to confine myself to the issue of privatisation.

Mr Chairperson, it is the duty of this ministry to ensure that our parastatals are privatised for the benefit of the Zambian people. However, as things are going, I am beginning to get worried about whether the companies we are privatising will have any benefits for the people of Zambia, particularly, the mining industry. 

Mr Chairperson, the Chiluba Government made the mistake of privatising the mines. However, this Government does not seem to have taken a leaf from those mistakes.

Mr Chairperson, today, we are seeing the closing and withdrawing of investment in the mining industry just because the Chiluba Government did not do a good job of privatising the mines.

Mr Chairperson, we are slowly seeing the same phenomenal coming back with this Government. I have stated on the Floor of this House that I am against Chinese investment in the mining industry. I want to be on record as being extremely against Chinese investment in the mining industry for the reasons I am about to discuss.

Mr Chairperson, Chambishi Non-Ferrous Metals Corporation (NFC), for instance, is the largest investment in the mining industry by the Chinese. I would like to find out from the Government what benefit is there for the people of Zambia. The Chinese investors at NFC do not deal with local suppliers. You must realise that only about 30 per cent of the population of the Copperbelt Province is employed by the mining companies. The rest survive by doing business with the mining companies, such as supplying spare parts and other commodities to the mining companies. There are also some contractors who do small jobs for the mining companies.

Mr Chairperson, from its inception to date, Chambishi NFC does not deal with Zambian suppliers.  Even the tissue in the toilet has Chinese transcriptions when we have local shops and manufacturers who produce tissue. Why should we allow the Chinese to import toilet paper, and yet they are taking away our natural resources?

Major Chizhyuka: Very bad!

Mr Kambwili: When you go to the Copperbelt, almost all the hardware shops stock V-bolts. When a V-bolt is broken at Chambishi NFC, they have to import the V-bolt from China. What is there for the people of Zambia? That is why I am saying, and I will continue doing so, for Luanshya Mine, for God’s sake, do not go the Chinese way.

Sir, let me declare interest, I am a supplier to the mining industry and a contractor at the same time. I have dealt with all the mining companies on the Copperbelt. In case you do not know, I run seven successful companies and one international company called Belle-Isle (UK) Ltd. I have done business with all the mining companies, but I have never supplied a screw at Chambishi NFC. Every time I go there, I find there is no Zambian employed in the Supply Department and all the correspondence is in Chinese. What is there for the Zambian? Do you want these same Chinese nationals to come to Luanshya and destroy the economy of Luanshya? At the same time, they pay the people working underground as little as K268,000.

Mr Chairperson, there are about 500 permanent employees at Chambishi NFC from G-six level to about G-one. The G-six level is paid about K600,000 and the shift boss who is a G-one is paid about K1.9 million. The rest of the underground employees are paid K268,000 as casuals. In Luanshya today, the previous mine owner used to pay the G-six US $1,600 and the G-One US $3,200. Now, you want the lives of the people in Luanshya to retrogress by bringing in the Chinese who are going to pay less. Hon. Minister, let me tell you that I am not against China as a country. If the Chinese want to come to Luanshya, they must be prepared to run the social sectors such as hospitals. Already, the Chinese investors who have shown interest in Luanshya Mines have indicated that they do not want to have anything to do with Luanshya Hospital, Roan United Football Club and Luanshya Trust School. This sector has been associated with the mining industry and the standard of education in the schools and the health care services are excellent.

Mr Chairperson, Nkana Mine Hospital was the best hospital on the Copperbelt. It was given to the Chinese. Go there today and you will cry.

 Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, when I tell this Government to let the Chinese only make roads and not to bring them to the mining industry, they think we hate the Chinese. What do you think will happen to Luanshya Hospital and Roan United Football Club?

Sir, the previous investor used to sponsor Roan United Football Club to the tune of K67 million per month and when we went to Chambishi NFC, after they showed interest, and told them about this, they got scared. They already show that they are not interested in running the club. For the sake of the people of Luanshya, I am appealing to the hon. Ministers of Mines and Minerals Development and Commerce, Trade and Industry respectively to let the Chinese be the last resort. If there will be no other investor interested in the mine, only then, can we bring in the Chinese. We want our local suppliers and contractors to keep getting money from the mines through the contracts that they have with the mines. The Chinese even brought two companies within NFC. One is called the Mother NFC and the other one contract NFC. These are Chinese nationals, again, who are employing Zambians as mining contractors and paying them K268, 000. May we please have mercy on the Zambians.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili:  Let us give the opportunity of investment to the people who are going to leave money in Zambia. They take our copper, externalise the money and create jobs for those who are working in industries in China by buying everything from China, including toilet paper while our people who are the suppliers are now shunted into poverty.

Sir, bringing the Chinese to Luanshya Mine is as good as exporting wealth and importing poverty. As hon. Member of Parliament for Roan Parliamentary Constituency, I shall not accept this. I can promise you that there will be total war in Luanshya if you bring the Chinese.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Kambwili. Do not preach war. No war! You can use some other word.

 Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, there will be problems in Luanshya if you bring the Chinese.

Dr Puma stood up.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I can see the hon. Deputy Minister for Local Government and Housing standing. Do you want to raise a point of order?

Dr Puma: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: Please, do indicate when standing because if you just stand without doing so, you will not attract my attention. You can raise your point of order.

Dr Puma: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. Is the hon. member on the Floor in order to express so much anger against the Chinese after they refused to register him as a supplier? I need your serious ruling.

 Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Well, he had declared interest and he is generally talking about the need for our investors to trade with the Zambian local suppliers. He is in order.

Can the hon. Member for Roan continue, please.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, even the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry is a contractor through A. B. Howard, the company he runs in Luanshya, but he has never been given a single order by Chambishi NFC. He is here to speak for himself. They do not deal with any Zambians. That is the bottom line.

 The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I am not very comfortable with that path you are treading. Do not bring the hon. Minister into your debate because you will prompt him to answer.

Can you, please, continue.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, all I am trying to say is that we need investors who are going to look after the welfare of Zambians by dealing with local contractors and suppliers, paying our employees salaries that are worth their input and running the hospitals and the social sector in the mining industry. Then, we shall develop Zambia.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Indeed, if the Chinese are ready to do this, I will have no problems. They can come and invest, but as long as they want to pay K220,000, they can take their investment elsewhere. We do not need it in Luanshya. In any case, there are many mining companies where investment is required like in the North-Western Province. Therefore, if this Government wants the Chinese, let them take them there and not to Luanshya.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, what I see in this Government makes me believe what one old man told me when I was campaigning in the last elections. This old Bemba man said, “Yes, Mr Kambwili I can give you a vote, but the problem with you politicians nga mwaya ku Lusaka bamipela impukunya matobo mwalaba nabantu bamivotele.”

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Kambwili: Meaning, when you are voted into power and go to Lusaka where you are fed on cake, you tend to forget about the people that voted for you.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: That is exactly what is happening. This Government has been fed on mpukunya matobo and has forgotten the people that voted them into power.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: This is extremely dangerous. We need to care for the people of Zambia by bringing investment that is going to benefit them.

Mr Chairperson, the smelter that has been built at Chambishi is quoted at K12 billion per annum as land rates. The council, through the evaluators, suggested that K12 billion be paid by the investors, however, the Government is interfering …

Ms Cifire: Wampontela impukunya matobo!

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: … through the back door. We want to know what the Chinese gave this Government.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: I now made to believe that during the last elections, the Chinese must have given this Government so much money that they are now paying back.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: This is dangerous.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Mr Kambwili, be factual and do not speculate.

You may continue.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like to caution the Government to be careful in the way it is going privatise the mines.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to continue telling us that the Government received mpukunya matobo and the Government remains quiet as though, indeed, they ate whatever it is?

Laughter

Mr Muntanga: Is he in order to continue telling us about mpukunya matobo and the Government quietly admitting eating it? Is he in order?

Laughter
The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No, to some extent the Government was not very quiet because I heard Hon. Cifire talk about mpukunya matobo.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Maybe, we should ask Hon. Kambwili to explain what mpukunya matobo is. You can cover that as you debate.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, those who know Bemba know for sure that mpukunya matobo is a cake. A cake is mpukunya matobo in Bemba.

Interruptions

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, let me end by advising my colleagues on the other side that posterity will judge you harshly if you are not cautious in the way you privatise or give the mines to the Chinese.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me an opportunity to add my voice in support of the Vote on the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry.

 I would also like to say that some of the points that the previous speaker has made are valid. Therefore, as policy makers and legislators we must, sometimes, listen carefully to what people are saying, especially those that are on the ground.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: This would help us do the best for our people.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I do not believe that there is any country in the world that is developed only by foreign investors.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I agree that foreign investment is very important because it does create employment, but at the same time, we must also guard our own assets jealously. This is because we have nothing apart from our country, Zambia, and the natural resources that it has.

Mr Chairperson, I have noticed that Zambians have a negative aspect …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: … and this is a general problem. When you see a fellow Zambian making money, you do not like it.

Major Chizhyuka: No!

Mrs Masebo: Unless you see a foreigner doing it.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: This is the more reason why today, if you go to the markets, our Zambians have given away their shops because they are having difficulties trading. Once they hand over the shop to a foreigner, he succeeds. If that foreigner goes to Lusaka City Council or any council in the country or the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry to get a licence, he is given red carpet treatment. However, if it is a Zambian who wants to get a licence, there are so many stories and road blocks.
Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: As Zambians, we need to change our mind-set in the manner we look at our people when it comes to doing business. When you go to other countries, it is not easy to be in business. In the Western countries, the fact that you are black means you will have difficulties starting up a business. In an African country, even when you are black, but because of a given surname, they will make it difficult for you to start a business because they are jealous. However, here when there is a Banda and a Patel, they are more interested in the name Patel. One thing is that by nature, Zambians are not corrupt, but some business people who have come to do business in this country are the ones who have imported corruption because somehow, they know how to exchange money for favours.

Mr Chairperson, you will find that most of the people doing business in Zambia, especially the females do not corrupt people. As a woman, I will not go to an office and say, “give me this licence for a K100,000,” it is very difficult and unlike Zambians. It is our friends from countries where corruption is advanced who have a field day. So, when people come here to talk about these matters, it is important that we, in Government, listen carefully and go back to see how best we can improve and make things better for our people.

Mr Chairperson, having said this, I would like to commend the hon. Minister for a job well done. He makes us proud as a country and I am sure that all hon. Members in this House will agree that his performance is above average.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Give her time to debate.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I would like to commend the CEEC. After attending the workshop organised by Parliament, I was personally impressed with the work or the progress that has been made. We should agree that the management and its board have made positive progress towards implementing the Act and they have been consulting.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, again, as I said earlier, as Zambians, we are good at criticising each other and we spend so much energy and time on destruction and, as a result, we shift the focus from helping the people to understand what the CEEC is all about. Since these people have done a lot, although last year we were told that the money was just lying there, this year, we hope with the seminars we have had with them, we can all go back to our constituencies and begin to help the people understand what the CEEC is all about so that they can begin to access the money. The problem in this country is that there is too much politicking. Our minds are centred on politics and we are not business minded. We do not love money, we do not love our country and we do not guard our minerals and assets jealously.

Mr Sichilima: And yet we are a poor country.

Mrs Masebo: Moreover, we are proud to say that we are a poor country and this is done in the morning, afternoon and at night. Only today somebody was saying, this country has two categories of people, beggars and plunderers. Mr Chairperson, as Zambians, we must change our mindset and become business minded. In Zambia, there are only two professions which people are taking up, politics and being a pastor…

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: … because that is where there seems to be easier things. As far as I know, anybody or anything can become …

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe, who is my sister and one of the cream hon. Members of this House, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: … in order to insinuate that my uncle, Hon. Shikapwasha, has gone into pastorhood because he is just looking for a job, when he is seeking God’s guidance and he wants people to be delivered? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Shakafuswa …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The Chair did not hear your sister mention Hon. Shakapwasha …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … Shikapwasha. So, I think you are the one who is out of order.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: May the hon. Member continue.
Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that we seem to have two very popular professions in this country. That is politics and being a pastor, and yet, most of us can become very …

Ms Lundwe: Good pastors.

Mrs Masebo: … good business men and women. We can even become self employed. The mindset of Zambians is that for one to say he/she is working, he needs to work for a Ministry of Chakuti and Department of Chakuti.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Madam,  what do you mean by ‘chakuti’?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you be specific.

Mrs Masebo: Sorry, Mr Chairperson. It is the tendency to think you work only when you work either in a Government department or a very high profile private company. Working means to do any kind of job that brings you an income in order to be able to look after yourself and your family. Therefore, it is important that the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry begins to inculcate that sense of understanding in people so that their mindset can change. How do you explain a situation where many young girls come from the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) to sell us viduku which we are wearing? They make money out of us, and yet our own women here are not able to give us the Zambian chiduku so that they can make money from that business.

Hon. Opposition Members: What is chiduku?

Mrs Masebo: A headscarf is a chiduku.

Most of the business people, in fact, even some of the people that you see in the streets doing business, including witch doctor business, are not Zambians. They come from around the region. Why should we get a witchdoctor from another country when we have so many in this country, especially in the Eastern Province?

Laughter

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: At least, it would be fair to have witchdoctors from Eastern Province and not Kenya.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us hear more from the Eastern Province, please.

Mrs Masebo: The point I was making is that …

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson:  A point of order is raised.

Mr Muntanga: Mr Chairperson is the hon. Member for Chongwe in order to talk about other witchdoctors and leave the owner of ililomba, Hon. Dr Guy Scott.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue hon. Member.

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, the point I am making is that we should create indigenous business persons.
Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Even as we welcome foreign investors, let them come and partner with us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes, that is very important.

Mrs Masebo: Let us not be apologetic about it. People get so scared when they hear somebody say restrict business to Zambians. It is like you have insulted somebody. No, there is nothing wrong. In fact, our friends even put it in writing that no foreigner, whether with a long or short nose, can do business in their country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: However, we are so apologetic. This is our country and you can only make money in your own country, first and foremost.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: We have to be jealous about our businesses.

Hon. Opposition Members: The Minerals Act.

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, we must guard our businesses jealously and ensure that we make money from our own country before we start thinking of other countries.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: No, I think we are now debating through points of order. Okay, you have your point of order.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I am most grateful for your having allowed me to raise this point of order. It is not my intention to disturb the hon. Member of Parliament for Chongwe who is one of the most prolific debaters in this House. However, is she in order not to debate her points slowly and repeat the point she has just been emphasising when I have problems with my vocal codes (touching his right ear) …

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: I have a problem with my ear drum and, therefore, I was not able to hear her correctly. Nonetheless, on a very serious note, is she in order not to debate slowly?

Mr Chimbaka: On a point of order, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: No! You cannot raise a point of order on another point of order. Let him finish his point of order.

Major Chizhyuka: Sir, is she in order not to go a little slowly so that both ourselves and the Executive, which is the key implementer of some of our policies, can understand the point she is making. I feel she is going too fast and I am only able to pick bits and pieces of what she is saying.

The Deputy Chairperson: Before I make the ruling, I would like to make it clear that this will be the last point of order on the hon. Member debating. However, since the Major was saying vocal codes while touching his ear, the hon. Member on the Floor is in order.

Can you continue.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, I went to one foreign country and was so impressed with it, but I will not mention the name of this country. What impressed me was that 90 per cent of the shops and trading places there were owned by local families.

Mr Kambwili: It is Kenya and Tanzania.

Mrs Masebo: One would even see that the family businesses had been carried on from one generation to another. For example, if the Lungu family is into crop marketing and selling of maize, that family business will go on from one generation to another and the family will be known for that type of business.

Mr Muntanga: As long as they are from Lundazi.

Mrs Masebo: I am trying to emphasise the point of us having local production, pricing and ownership.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: If this is given priority, our country is going to develop. Thereafter, we can have foreign investors so that when they come, we are ready to embrace and work with them. We should not continue sweeping their shops for the rest of our lives in our own country.

Hon Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: I think that is neither right nor fair.

Mr Chairperson, lastly, we should ensure that women are taken on board in most businesses because it is very clear that once a woman is empowered, then a whole family is also empowered. Most families today are being taken care of by women. In fact, I can safely say that 65 per cent of the families in Zambia today are being supported by women.

Mr Kambwili laughed.

Mrs Masebo: There is nothing to laugh about. The fact is that women are mothers, very responsible and whatever money they get is used to take care of their families.

Ms Cifire: Tell them.

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, it is important that we deliberately involve women in every project that we do. Therefore, 50 per cent of the projects approved by CEEC should be for women while the other 50 per cent should be for men. Even in terms of repayment, women pay back better than men. If the Government wants the programmes under CEEC to succeed, it should deliberately make sure that 50 per cent of the projects approved go to female entrepreneurs so that even if there is failure, the success rate will be 50 per cent. However, if 80 per cent of the money from the commission is given to men, most of it will go towards buying cars and marrying third or fourth wives.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mrs Masebo: Therefore, it is important and necessary that in whatever we do in resource allocation, women are taken on board. Apart from women in this country, we are told that over 60 to 70 per cent are youths. We must deliberately ensure that this fund under the CEEC also goes to the youths. Once we do that, we will know that since we have given a lot of money to youths, we will be doing justice to our population. However, if we are going to give money only to ba midala bekabeka who are already tired, then we are going to be in trouble.

I thank you, Sir.
Laughter

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I support the vote. In doing so, I have only two issues to discuss, MFEZ and the Zambia Bureau of Standards.

I saw the MFEZ drawings that the hon. Minister brought to this House, but I was disappointed because I had asked the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry to give me all the architectural drawings for me to make an opinion regarding the foreign architecture …

Hon. Member: Why?

Mr Mooya: Look, I am a professional in this field, listen.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, give him the chance to explain his knowledge. Do not be distracted by them.

Mr Mooya: I am very familiar with this and that is why I wanted to have a look at it. Otherwise, there was nothing fishy about the idea of letting another professional have an opinion on this new architecture. If they will be satisfied, I will be satisfied too.

Mr Chairperson, the cardinal issue, when you deal with foreign architecture, is the standard. There are standards that you have to take into consideration. We have our own standards and they have their own. When it comes to repairing the buildings, we need to have the materials locally available. If you have foreign architecture, it would mean importation of even nuts or bolts when they are not available.

Mr Chairperson, the point I am trying to bring out is that get the views of other professionals regarding this foreign architecture.
Major Chizhyuka: They are only getting views from the Chinese.

Mr Mooya: Yes, if other professionals are happy, then I will be happy also. On this point, we must make sure that there is a joint venture so that foreign technology is transferred to Zambians. Let Zambians be involved from the beginning of the planning right through the implementation. Let us make sure that Zambians are also attached here.

Mr Chairperson, let me come to the Zambia Bureau of Standards. Last November, I attended World Standards Day Commemoration …

Interruptions

Mr Mooya: Yes, I am Tonga by tribe. This was meant to create awareness and sensitise consumers, clients, stakeholders, lawmakers and policy makers on the value of using products that are in compliance with given quality standards. What was revealed there broke my heart. Let me just give you one or two examples, I learnt that here in Zambia, there are only about 400 standards not only applicable to construction, but even other products while other countries like South Africa, for instance, have thousands and thousands of standards. We know that sub-standard material shorten the lifespan of a structure and are a danger to health and safety.

During the discussions, I learnt that we have a very bad culture where, if a client wants a structure and does not believe in the designer’s specifications, he or she would rather buy sub-standard materials. It happens. This culture must change. In order to arrest this, we must a find a solution to this problem. We should look at the huge investment we are making, year in and year out, on infrastructure development. The answer to that is to fund the Zambia Bureau of Standards. If you look at the Yellow Book, it is disappointing to see that only K400 million has been allocated this year when there was K500 million allocated last year. If we are serious about infrastructure development, we must first put things right. Let us control the standards. If we fail to do that, then all this huge investment will go down the drain. 
Mr Chairperson, two days ago, I heard my cousin, the hon. Minister of Education, being praised after he presented the policy statement for his ministry. To me, he sounded very impressive. I had no time to stand up and debate, but really he was doing well.

Laughter

Mr Mooya: 90 to 95 per cent…

The Deputy Chairperson: You have found chance to debate, especially now.

You may continue.

Mr Mooya: Mr Chairperson, what I am trying to say is that, please, let us find a time frame and money to fund the Zambia Bureau of Standards so that we can have the right specifications and our infrastructure can last even up to a hundred years instead of two to three years.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Mwamba (Lukashya): Thank you, Mr Chairperson. In supporting the vote, I laud the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry for a very well thought out policy statement.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Mwamba: We all know that as the world economic recession has affected the major economies of the world, it has also affected ailing and small economies of the world. However, this does not call for our Government to open its doors to all manner of investors. We expect investors who will add value to our economy. In this regard, the Government in its efforts to create an enabling environment for commerce or trade must not put in place policies that are detrimental to the Zambian people and the economy at large.

Mr Chairperson, I have in mind investment incentives such as taxes where you have foreign investors who are paying very little taxes, but, at the end of the day, reap huge sums of money from this country. These are the monies which they send to their countries of origin as capital flight. The fact that we need foreign investors to come to our country does not mean that they must be given an edge over the Zambian people in the name of attracting foreign investment.

Sir, I also have in mind labour laws related to employment in the companies that are set up by foreign investors. Some of the labour laws leave our people enslaved and allow other people to remain poor or perpetual beggars because of the working conditions and wages which they are subjected to without any protection from our own Government.

Mr Chairperson, once again, I would like to say that as we look at the new investment policy in our country, let us look at all the various aspects…

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Puma: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member debating in order to debate without shoes on? We are being inconvenienced. I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! It is very difficult for the Chair to rule because from my angle, I cannot tell whether she has shoes on or not. Madam Mwamba, do you have shoes on or not?

Laughter
Mrs Mwamba walked half way towards the Chairperson.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Mwamba may continue.

Laughter

Mrs Mwamba: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Mwamba: Thank you for protecting me from the malice of Dr Puma.

Laughter

Mrs Mwamba: Finally, I was just saying …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda, do not disturb her. Let her debate.

Mr Lubinda: I am urging her on, Sir.

Laughter

Mrs Mwamba: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that as we consider creating an enabling environment for investors, we must also put in place laws that protect our local people.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, let me begin by thanking the hon. Members who have supported the vote. Let me also clarify the issues that have been raised which are in four compartments.

 I will begin with the one dealing with the legal framework. Yes, we are going to attend to the ZDA Act and make appropriate arrangements to make it much more supportive to investment.

I also want to thank the hon. Members for the valuable contributions that they made to the CEEC Act. The next step is to integrate those suggestions and make access and coverage much more effective rather than going backwards to amend the law.

Mr Chairperson, regarding the economic partnership agreements (EPAs) and WTO, we are engaged in negotiations. These negotiations are somewhat difficult, particularly with regard to development.  In the EPAs, we have approached the commission and raised issues of concern surrounding substantially all trade, export taxes, development and rules of origin. These are the issues that we are dealing with. In WTO, we are engaged in addressing issues surrounding the agricultural subsidy which is distorting trade between the developing and developed countries.

Sir, as regards regional integration and the co-existence of COMESA and SADC on 22nd October, 2008 SADC/COMESA and the East African Community had a summit where it was agreed to collapse the elements that were common to the three organisations and find solutions for those things that separate us and eventually lead to one major trading block. Therefore, we are working on creating a big and major trading block.

Mr Chairperson, what is happening in the mining sector is no longer privatisation. It is a rescue plan to try to reverse and address the challenges that we have in the mining sector. Indeed, at present, we have not, as a Government, received any bid. Therefore, the elements that are being referred to, whether they are Chinese or anybody else, are at the moment speculations. It is the policy of this Government to wait until we have a factual package upon which we can comment, bearing in mind that the protection of Zambian interests, employment and growth is fundamental to going forward.

Therefore, when we get there, Hon. Kambwili, we shall address your concerns. These concerns, as we hear them, are job creation and the engagement of local suppliers.

Mr Chairperson, just as a matter of correction, last year Chambishi NFC spent US$50 million on local suppliers and engaged 250 local suppliers. Therefore, obviously, they are doing …

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Laughter

Mr Mutati: … some business with local suppliers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Mutati: What we may want to do, in supporting Hon. Kambwili, is to request them to get to 251 so that there can be a bigger congregation from the suppliers.

Dr Scott: That is unfair. It needs a point of order.

Mr Kambwili: Dunlop and Atlas Copco!
The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: We have to finish.

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, I would like to comment on the issues raised by Hon. Mooya with regard to the Zambia Bureau of Standards. What has happened, Hon. Mooya, is that we got Euro 5 million to re-equip and capacitate the Zambia Bureau of Standards so that they are able to carry out their mandate much more effectively. Therefore, we are doing the correct thing.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to architectural designs for what we are going to put in the MFEZ, we will continue to engage with you to ensure that we harvest from your wisdom in this particular discipline.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Bamudala mulebepa ubufi!

Laughter

Mr Mutati: Lastly, with regard to the Zambian entrepreneurs, we have seen that from,  the policy statement that last year, we had …

Interruptions

The  Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Mutati: … over 6,200 new businesses by local Zambians. Therefore, we have seen a change in terms of enterprise and anticipate that there is going to be growth as we go forward in terms of Zambian enterprises.

Mr Chairperson, let me end by thanking all the hon. Members that have supported the debate on this vote and we commit that we are going to deliver to Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 33/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 33/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 33/04 – (Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry – Industry Department – K22, 700,254,694).

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 10, Activity 04 – Monitoring of Implementation on CEEC Activities – K39,600,000. We have a full secretariat with a lot of money allocated to it to do this job. Why do we need an extra K39,600,000? On the same programme, I need clarification on Activity 05 – Business Development Services (BDS) Voucher Programme – K800,000,000. Can the hon. Minister tell me what this activity is because it has taken so much money?

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, at the centre, there is need to see to it that the programme and the mandate of CEEC is being delivered appropriately. Therefore, we have to make a follow up to where they have said they have disbursed funds and check whether that is being done properly.

Sir, with regard to the Business Development Services Voucher Programme, last year, we signed K23 billion from the co-operating partners to capacitate local enterprise and K800, 000,000 is our contribution.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 01, Programme 8, Activity 08 – EPA-EU meetings – K34, 560,000 and Activity 09 – AU Council of Ministers. Can I find out why there has been a reduction of 50 per cent in the allocation for EPA-EU meetings in this very crucial year when all ACP countries are expecting to engage in a lot of negotiations with the EU, particularly given the fact that the EPAs are not being accepted generally by ACP countries? Why has there been a reduction when we expected an increase?

Secondly, the configurations of the negotiations around the EPAs are so dangerous and difficult that the AU Council of Ministers of Commerce, Trade and Industry require integration and a common approach. Why, therefore, has this Government decided to deny this minister money to facilitate his participation in AU Council of Minister’s meetings?

Mr Mutati: Mr Chairperson, on that concern, Zambia is the Chair for the Eastern and Southern Africa (ESA) negotiating group. The meetings for the AU, EU and ESA by virtue of being Chair are held in Lusaka and, therefore, there is a cost reduction to that extent.

Sir, on Programme 9, what has happened in association with EPAs is that the EPA group has developed a template which the AU is actually adopting. Therefore, we do not see any activity of engagement regarding the EPA and AU.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 07, Activity 08 – China International Fair for Investment and Trade – Xiamen – K338,680,000. Is this to cover the costs of private sector people then …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

__________

[MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

___________

The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Friday, 20th March, 2009.