Debates- Wednesday, 18th November, 2009

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Wednesday, 18th November, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours







The Deputy Speaker: I have permitted the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to conduct a seminar for all hon. Members of Parliament on the subject of Climate Change. The seminar will be held on Thursday, 19th November, 2009, in the Amphitheatre here, at Parliament Buildings, starting at 0930 hours.

As hon. Members are aware, Climate Change is one of the burning issues, at the moment, globally because of the devastating effects it is causing to the environment. Hon. Members need to be equipped with as much knowledge and information as possible about the threats climate change causes to sustainable national development and the efforts being made to mitigate its effects.

I would, therefore, like to encourage all hon. Members to attend this important seminar. Please, note, however, that participation will be on a voluntary basis.

Thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




195. Mr Chisala (Chilubi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs whey the Ministry had not, for a long time now, taken necessary action to remove both pirated and pornographic materials from the streets of Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the Ministry of Home Affairs acknowledges the growing problem of pirated materials that have flooded the streets of Lusaka, Ndola and Kitwe respectively. It is for this reason that the unit called Intellectual Property Unit has been formed at Police Headquarters.

Sir, although the unit is in its infancy, it has recorded success in clamping down those dealing in pirated materials. The unit has carried a number of successful operations which have even been covered in the media. Just this year, two compact disc (CD) replicating plants were discovered in Lusaka and suspects were arrested. In separate operations, pirated digital versatile discs (DVDs) and CDs worth billions of kwacha were also seized this year. In addition, the unit has seized fake food stuffs and cosmetics. To ensure that the seized products do not find their way back on the street, they are destroyed publicly upon orders from the Courts of Law.

Sir, in most of these operations, accused persons have been taken before courts and fined. Full scale operations have not begun on the Copperbelt as officers there need to be trained in Intellectual Property Law. The unit faces challenges in enforcing the law to the reluctance and delay in getting licenses and contractual letters from the right holders in terms of foreign music and videos. Despite these challenges, the unit is collaborating with local and international stakeholders in fighting the problem of piracy. The Zambia Police Service does not work alone in tackling the problem of pirated materials, but also works hand in hand with the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting Services. The control of pornographic materials also poses a challenge because such materials are not publicly sold. I wish to appeal to all law abiding citizens to report any person dealing in pornographic materials to the Drug Enforcement Commission (DEC) or to any nearest police station so that the law can take its course.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, it is a well known fact that the showing of pornographic movies acts as a catalyst to the spread of HIV/AIDS, defilement and rape cases, especially when it is watched by …

The Deputy Speaker: Order! The hon. Member may ask his follow-up question.

Mr Chisala: Madam Speaker, following this unpleasant situation, which is at an escalating rate, how does the Government intend to bring a lasting solution to this problem?

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Madam Speaker, indeed, the problem of pornographic material is a challenge to all of us. I think you are aware that anybody who is in possession of obscene material in Zambia is committing an offense. This is why these materials are sold secretly because the law is that if they are caught, they will be brought before the Courts of Law or they will be arrested by the police. So, we are putting measures to make sure that these people are arrested.

Sir, in terms of the corrupt aspect, it is a moral obligation by all of us to educate our children and all those that are enticed by these materials to, please, behave themselves very well because at the end of the day, they will be judged as individuals. The corruptive aspect is a very critical part of it. The essence of a pornographic material is that some people may just watch them. For example, my dear brother may just want to watch it quietly….


Mr Mangani: … and the corrupt part is when he wants to go and misbehave. The idea of wanting to misbehave is a big challenge that we have to educate each other on. We should behave ourselves. It is dangerous to misbehave because you will end up dying. I think that is a very important aspect.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Speaker, bearing in mind that it is highly unlikely that we have production of these obscene materials in this country, what has the hon. Minister’s ministry done in order to make sure that these materials are intercepted at points of entry such as the airports and border posts such as Chirundu and Nakonde?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, we have a unit that is trying to monitor all these activities. Once these items are confiscated, they are destroyed. I think you will have known that of late, this has become a serious challenge to the Government. We need to train a lot of officers so that we make sure we deal with this situation seriously.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, may I know if there are any people who have, so far, been convicted in the Courts of Law or are they still suspects as the hon. Minister called them earlier on?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, that is an important question that requires the attention of all of us. A lot of people have been fined. I think we need to take serious measures over this. For example, in Kapiri-Mposhi, there was a woman who was found with pornographic material.

The police did their best in investigating the case. However, the law states that the perpetrator can only be fined or imprisoned for not more than five years. Therefore, somewhere in between, people are trying to play with the law.

Madam Speaker, we need to find a way of revisiting this so that we strengthen the law. We will make sure that anybody caught with such material is punished. It is a shame that mostly in such cases, people are only fined and the amount is not very encouraging, looking at the input by the police.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Ms Kapata (Mandevu): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister define pornography? Furthermore, what is the hon. Minister’s ministry doing to ensure the sensitisation of the public against such material?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, pornography is …
Hon. MMD Member: Kuzivula.

Mr Mangani: …being in possession of material that is suggestive or some act that society does not approve of.


The Deputy Speaker: Order!

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, if society, therefore, feels that to see a naked woman, possibly with a man, in the act is not good, it will be classified as pornographic.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, our artistes have lost a lot of revenue through piracy. Even when the perpetrator is sentenced, the artiste does not gain anything. Does the Government intend to compensate our artistes, especially musicians, whose music has been pirated?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, the whole idea of forming the Intellectual Property Unit is to deal with such cases and protect artistes, especially musicians, who have lost a lot of money because of piracy. Once we discover that a lot of music has been pirated, we destroy it. To this effect, the pirates lose a lot of money in the process. Eventually, they are taken to court where they are either fined or sentenced. This is why we need to look at the law, again, so that such people are severely punished.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, with the advent of the internet, pornography can now come in cyberspace and children can even access it on their mobile phones and computers. What measures has the hon. Minister’s ministry taken to deal with this problem?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, this is the new level of this crime. We need to regulate in this area and the Ministry of Communications and Transport can deal with this.

Madam Speaker, I thank you. 

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much revenue the country has lost because of failure to stop piracy.

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, I do not have the figures here. It is very difficult because we may not identify all the material. However, we want to ensure that operations are strengthened so that once we discover that the items are pirated or counterfeit, we destroy them so that all the effort by the pirates is wasted. A lot of money is lost in this process, but I cannot quantify how much.


196. Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi) asked the Minister of Education what assistance was given to Grade 12 pupils at Namwianga High School in Dundumwezi Parliamentary Constituency whose examination results were lost by the Ministry in 2007.

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Madam Speaker, no results were lost. However, results in Agricultural Science for twenty-six candidates at the school were not released.

Madam Speaker, Paper 3, which is a practical examination, requires that a candidate submits a project. As per requirement, these projects are expected to be submitted to the Examination Council of Zambia (ECZ) for central marking. In the case of Namwianga High School, the projects were marked at the school, contrary to the requirement, and instead of submitting projects to the ECZ, the school submitted raw marks. The twenty-six candidates could not, therefore, be graded. 

The Ministry of Education directed the ECZ to moderate the raw marks so that the twenty-six candidates could be graded. The marks have since been processed and the ECZ has asked the school to withdraw the certificates issued without Agricultural Science marks so that correct certificates can be issued to the twenty-six candidates.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.


197. Mr D. Mwila (Chipili) asked the Minister of Finance and National Planning:

(a) what the total value of assets belonging to the Zambia National Building Society (ZNBS) was as of December, 2008;

(b) whether ZNBS had any plans to open more branches country-wide;

(c)  how much money the exercise at (b) would cost;

(d) when ZNBS would rehabilitate its infrastructure country-wide; and

(e) how much money the exercise at (d) would cost.

The Deputy Minister of Finance and National planning (Ms C. M. Kapwepwe): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the total value of assets as at 31st December, 2008, of the ZNBS was K171,316 million.

Madam Speaker, currently, there are no plans to open more branches of the society countrywide due to lack of capital. Since there are no plans to open more branches for the society due to lack of capital, there is no budget provision for this exercise.

Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that rehabilitation works for the ZNBS infrastructure countrywide has commenced. To this effect, rehabilitation works for the ZNBS premises in Livingstone, Mufulira and Lusaka (Permanent House) have been undertaken. Currently, rehabilitation of the Kitwe ZNBS premises is in progress. So far, K1.5 billion has been spent over the rehabilitation works carried out to date.  It is foreseen, however, that in the next ten years, a total cost of K62 billion will be spent on the rehabilitation of the entire ZNBS portfolio.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what the tenure of office for the current managing director is. 
The Deputy Speaker: The question is on infrastructure.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Speaker, I wish to find out from the hon. Minister what plans the Government has for the Building Society House along Cairo Road that was gutted by fire about thirteen years ago. In her answer, the hon. Minister did not include that piece of infrastructure owned by the ZNBS.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, the plan that is there for the infrastructure on Cairo Road is to look for partners. In the last couple of years, the management of the ZNBS has been looking for partners to rehabilitate and develop that piece of infrastructure and, the other nearby infrastructure, into a modern shopping complex, modern office complex and a car park.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Madam Speaker, may I find out from the hon. Minister if the building was not insured at the time it was gutted.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, I do not have those details right now. Clearly, the way forward, as I have indicated, is to make the efforts that the management is making to look for partners. The management has developed a very elaborate plan which is very impressive. If any of the colleagues here wish to, either themselves or through their partners, they can enter into discussions with the ZNBS management so that the infrastructure is rehabilitated.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out if the Government is happy with the financial performance of the ZNBS, taking into account the fact that the hon. Minister has told us that the assets employed amount to K171 billion. When we take into account the answer given to yesterday’s question that the profit made was K15 billion which is less than 9 per cent of the assets employed, is the Government happy with the financial performance of this company?

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Speaker, any shareholder always wants to have the maximum return from their assets. As such, we would want to see better performance from the ZNBs. What the society requires is new capital injection. Therefore, the Government is working out plans on how to recapitalise the institution, not necessary using Government funds, but partners who can be found from the private sector. Therefore, with more liquidity and capital, the institution should do better.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.


198. Major Chibamba (Shiwang’andu) asked the Minister of Home Affairs when the Government would construct police posts at the following places in Shiwang’andu Parliamentary Constituency:

(i) Ilondola Mission; and

(ii) Matumbo.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the ministry is currently concentrating on finishing the housing units under construction in the four districts of Kasama, Ndola, Livingstone and Chipata. In the next phase of infrastructure development, the ministry will consider the construction of police stations and posts as well. Places that critically need police posts will be considered.

Madam Speaker, my hope is to see such places as Ilondola Mission and Matumbo get police posts. Though Matumbo has no police post, there is an operational post where officers are rotated on a weekly basis. The operational post is using the house that has been offered by a concerned member of the Community Crime Prevention Unit (CCPU). In the meantime, if similar arrangements were made by the community of Ilondola Mission, officers would be sent there as we wait for the construction of a police post.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.




Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the First Report of the Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 11th November, 2009.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Yes, Madam Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, in keeping with their terms of reference of overseeing the functions of the ministries responsible for energy, environment and tourism, your Committee considered the following topical issues:

(i) rural electrification;
(ii) Regulation of the hospitality industry; and
(iii) management of Game Management Areas (GMAs).

Madam Speaker, your Committee also considered the Action-Taken Report on the Committee’s report for 2008 and undertook tours to various locations based on the topical issues that were under consideration,

Madam Speaker, as regards rural electrification, your Committee were informed that at present, 3 per cent of rural areas have access to electricity. The Government is carrying out a rural electrification exercise with the aim of increasing rural access to electricity to 51 per cent by 2030. In order to introduce a systematic programme for electrifying all rural areas, in 2003, the Government created the Rural Electrification Authority.

Your Committee welcome the rural electrification exercise and are of the view that taking electricity to rural areas will go a long way in improving the livelihoods of people in rural Zambia. However, the provision of electricity alone is not enough and should be supported by the provision of other essential services such as water and sanitation, roads schools and other infrastructure required to bring decency to the lives of the poor people in rural areas.

Madam Speaker, your Committee were informed the hospitality industry forms the largest number of all tourist enterprises in Zambia. In this regard, it is of utmost importance that the industry provides high quality and efficient service if the Government’s vision of making tourism one of the leading contributors to the country’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is to be achieved. However, your Committee learnt, with dismay, that there is an acute shortage of skilled manpower to service the industry.

 One of the reasons given for this is the mushrooming of substandard training institutions in the country in recent years.These institutions are said to be churning out graduates who do not posses the skills necessary to provide desirable service to the hospitality sector.

Madam Speaker, most stakeholders attributed this to lack of supervision of these training institutions by the Technical Education and Vocational Training Authority (TEVETA). Your Committee were informed that TEVETA allows training institutions to register and start operating without meeting certain minimum requirements such as training kitchens.

Madam Speaker, your Committee find this situation highly unacceptable and wish to urge the responsible authorities to ensure that this practice is not perpetrated. All colleges offering specialised training should be registered on equal criteria and should be allowed to operate on a level playing field if the hospitality industry in the country is to develop to a level where it will offer world class services that will attract tourists in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, allow me to briefly address the subject of management of Game Management Areas (GMAs). Your Committee learnt that the concept of game management areas was introduced in order to involve local communities living adjacent to national parks in management of wildlife. Local communities derive direct financial benefits from wildlife management through community resources boards (CRBs).

In order to appreciate how CRBs operate, your Committee toured two chiefdoms in Sichifulo Game Management Area in the Southern Province. Your Committee were informed that the financial resources gained from wildlife management have helped to improve the livelihoods of people in the chiefdoms around Sichifulo through building of classroom blocks and provision of water, among others benefits.

Madam Speaker, your Committee are fully aware that most of the Members of this honourable House associate Sichifulo Game Management Area with the displacement of people. However, allow me to point out that our mission in Sichifulo was to learn how community resource boards benefit local communities and not to get involved in conflict resolution.

Therefore, your Committee wish to commend the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) for the efforts it is making in working together with the local communities to manage these boards and wish to urge ZAWA to ensure that the Game Management Plans are developed for all GMAs. Your Committee also wish to implore the Government to ensure that ZAWA is adequately funded so that it can effectively carry out its mandate.

Madam Speaker, your Committee wish to express their gratitude to the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice and services rendered to them throughout their deliberations. They are indebted to all the witnesses who appeared before them for their co-operation in providing the necessary memoranda and briefs.

Madam Speaker, I wish, on behalf of your Committee, to express our gratitude to you, for appointing us to serve on this important Committee.

Madam Speaker, your Committee have no doubt that the observations and recommendations contained in our report will go a long way in improving the energy, environment and tourism sectors in Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, in seconding the Motion to adopt the First Report of the Committee on Energy Environment and Tourism for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly, laid on the Table of the House on 18th November, 2009, allow me first to thank the Chairperson for having ably moved the Motion.

Madam, the Chairperson has already pointed out the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during their deliberations. Therefore, I will only touch on some of them.

Madam Speaker, as part of their tours, your Committee had an opportunity to visit the Parliament of the Republic of Kenya. They were informed that in a bid to increase the electricity generation capacity of Kenya, a lot of resources are being put in the development of geothermal electricity as a sustainable alternative to hydro power. This will help to increase the availability, efficiency and affordability of electricity. Your Committee had the opportunity to visit Olkaria II which is Africa’s largest geothermal plant and were able to see the commitment that the Kenyan Government has put into the development geothermal energy.

Your Committee wish to put on record that they were impressed with the work that is being carried out by Kenya Generation Company and urge the Zambian Government to emulate these efforts and urgently source funds to revive the development of the Kapisha Geothermal Plan as the country endeavours to diversify to other renewable sources of energy.

Madam, your Committee also visited the Kenya Wildlife Services which is a counterpart of the ZAWA. The Kenya Wildlife Services appear to have made great strides in managing wildlife in Kenya and have managed to reach a point where they generate 90 per cent of their revenue. This, indeed, is an achievement that needs to be emulated by our own ZAWA.

Your Committee are of the opinion that ZAWA’s importance in protecting the country’s wildlife cannot be overemphasised. However, your Committee wish to caution that there is a need for an ideal situation to be achieved where ZAWA’s dependency on the Government is reduced and eventually done away with completely so that the country’s wildlife mangers can become self-sustainable. They, therefore, urge ZAWA to become more innovative and ensure efficiency and accountability in their operations if this is to be achieved.

Finally, Madam Speaker, I wish to pay tribute to your Committee for the manner in which they conducted their deliberations. Your Committee observed the views of all the witnesses who appeared before them. They did so in the spirit and manner that helped them make recommendations, which are, in their view, in the best interest of the people of Zambia.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Madam Speaker, I would like to first thank the Committee for a very thorough report and for highlighting the two areas, particularly that of rural electrification as well challenges of wildlife management.

I would be very brief by bringing to the two concerns I have on behalf of the people of Chienge and Kaputa districts. I do believe that the Government’s commitment to improve access to electricity in rural areas is real, but I also believe that the pace at which the agency that is responsible for executing this function, the Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) is slow because it has serious bottlenecks.

As I speak, Kaputa District, which had its Power Rural Electrification Project launched by the late President Mwanawasa some years ago, is still using generated power. One does not understand why this project has not been completed.

There was so much fanfare and people were excited. It makes economic sense for ZESCO to introduce hydropower in Kaputa to reduce the cost of the generator that they use to generate power there which is very expensive. I do recall the costing that was done in 1997 and it was clear that we did not have a sustainable option to carry on using a generator to generate power for Kaputa District. The distance involved is a short one and I have seen that in other places ZESCO has done the needful and I am referring to Nyimba here and some other places where ZESCO has been very effective.

Madam Speaker, the era of generating electricity for large populations is gone. I celebrate the plant that was put in Chavuma. We should have hydropower there to avoid the costs that would visit the State and ZESCO very soon. In Chienge, there was a decision by ZESCO to export power to the Democratic Republic of Congo (DR Congo) and it makes good sense as a compensation for importing of power from Malawi into Chama and I recall the configuration then in terms of scenarios, it was decided by ZESCO then that if they could import power from Malawi, they could compensate in terms of cost by exporting the power they would take to Chienge into the DR Congo, which, according to what I am told, is a very efficient customer who pays their bills promptly in dollars.

Madam Speaker, they have managed to export this power from Chienge through three wards, namely, Wau Chipungu and Lunchinda into the DR Congo. Here I am thinking of the artificial boundary at Lunchinda. They have made one technical mistake because the metre which they have to use to read the consumption rate by the Congolese in DR Congo is put at Chienge Boma which means that the population between Chienge Boma and the border cannot access electricity because if they tap into that electricity, they are taping into the power that is being exported to the DR Congo. People are asking why they should just be looking at power lines going to the DR Congo when they want to have commercial access to electricity. It could have made very good sense to put the reading metre or whatever it is at the border to avoid that kind of complication. It just requires common sense.

I believe and hope that the Government will look into this issue to avoid the frustrations that have visited the people of the three wards in my constituency. It is not fair to give people this glittering experience of having power lines over their houses, schools, clinics and their projects in the rural electrification plan book which says that they will take power to Chipungu and Lunchinda. They cannot do so because of that technical problem they have created. I am praying that ZESCO will revisit their plan and relocate the meter close to the border to allow our people in the three wards to have access to power.

In terms of game management, I was impressed that your Committee visited Kenya and had an opportunity to learn what our colleagues are doing there. Speaking for those of us who are close to the Nsumbu Game Park, we have been disappointed that despite the commitment by ZAWA to restock the Mweru Wantipa Game Management Park, nothing has been done so far. It is good for tourism in the Northern Circuit to have Nsumbu and the Mweru Wantipa Game Park fully stocked. It will be very good for tourism in the Northern Circuit.

It is all right to have Lake Mweru so that people can have water sports and so on, but it could be complimented if that was amplified by game viewing if we had the Mweru Wantipa Game Park stocked. So I do hope and pray that the Government will look at this very old plan because it existed when I was Minister of Tourism, to restock the Mweru Wantipa Game Park. It will also bring life back to Kaputa and Chienge districts.

I thank you.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this important Motion.

First of all, I would like to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion for a job well done. I will be very brief in my contribution to the debate. One of the things we have seen in the country, today, is a situation where most of our people have not been given an opportunity to have energy or power in their homes. In my constituency, there are a number of settlements where there are power lines flying over the settlements, and yet they cherish and keep them safe without vandalising them. I would like to urge the Government and the Ministry of Energy, Environment and Tourism to ensure that when they look at issues of power, they also afford people of such settlements an opportunity to have power.

Madam Speaker, Zambia has been independent for the past forty-five years, but nothing is happening on the ground. How do you expect settlements to develop from one stage to the other if they have not been given an opportunity to experience what it feels like to have electric energy? We have opportunities in terms of energy where we can have mini hydro power stations all over the country. If you look at Luapula, we have many waterfalls there which can be utilised. We have Mumbo Ututa which can light the whole Luapula if developed. It is important that the Government invests in energy to an extent where each and every Zambian is targeted to have power. We were told that the Government is coming up with the Rural Electrification Master Plan (REMP), but this has not come out. I would like to know from the hon. Minister when this plan will come out because we would like to see what we put in.

Every hon. Member was asked to make an input in the REMP, but, to date, we do not know whether our input was considered or not. Even as we go back to the people, we do not know what to tell them. So, it is important that when we look at the issue of energy, we give it the seriousness attention it deserves because it can improve the lives of the people.

Madam Speaker, the other issue I would like to discuss is the National Water Resource Management Bill. We have been talking about this Bill for I do not know how long now and I do not know the plan of the Government over this issue so that we know how the water situation will be administered in this country. If the Bill is not there, how are we going to tell which direction we are going? It is important that issues which have been highlighted in this report are brought up so that this Bill comes to this House before the House rises.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, first of all, I would like to thank the mover and seconder of this Motion, including all the hon. Members who have spoken before me.

Madam Speaker, I will be very brief and I want to direct my efforts to only one issue and that is power generation. As the previous speaker stated, it is extremely disappointing that forty-five years after Independence, Zambia has less than three power generation points. In the Luapula and Northern provinces, there are a lot of waterfalls which can be developed into power generation points, but, unfortunately, nothing has been done about this.

Madam Speaker, over the geo-thermal project, the Committee on Delegated Legislation visited Kenya and was impressed with what they saw. My brother, Hon. Sikazwe, has bemoaned the fact that the Government has failed to take up the project.

I think with the shortage of electricity that we are facing in this country, it is high time the Government took the geothermal project seriously. It is disappointing to have 90 per cent of Zambia without electricity. Forty-five years after independence, we expect all the compounds in Lusaka and the Copperbelt to be lit, and that is when we start talking about the rural areas, when, in Lusaka, where the ministry is, most of the compounds have no electricity.

Madam Speaker, on the other hand, much as we implement the expansion of electricity project, we must also look at the cost. Is the electricity affordable to the rural areas where we are taking the electricity? It will be disappointing to take electricity to the rural areas when people there cannot afford to pay for it. Therefore, as we do this, we must make electricity affordable to our people by coming up with projects that will promote economic activities in rural areas.

Like the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning has said, if you move from Lusaka to Chipata and try to count how many companies there are paying tax, you will find that there are none. If we can take electricity to the rural areas without any economic activities in those rural areas, the project will be a white elephant and a waste of time.

With these few words, I want to thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me this chance to debate this Motion.

I also wish to thank my Chairperson, the mover of the Motion, Hon. Chanda and the seconder, Hon. Sichamba. In supporting this Motion, I would like to dwell on the Rural Electrification Authority (REA), Rural Electrification Fund as well as the Vision 2030.

Madam Chairperson, we are told, in this report, that for us to meet the requirements of the Vision 2030 by 2030, Zambia, being a middle-income country, the REA required to receive on an annual basis, US$50 million or equivalent to K280 billion, in order to broaden the grid as well as to build mini-hydro power stations and establish other sources of energy countrywide.

Madam Speaker, it is disappointing, actually, to see that this authority is dislocated by the MMD Government and I will demonstrate why I think that way. Back in 2008, against the backdrop of the requirement of K280 billion that ought to have been given to the authority, only K23 billion was allocated in the Yellow Book, giving a difference or deficit of K257 billion. Last year, K88 billion was given to the REA to meet the Vision 2030 against the requirement of K280 billion, giving a deficit of K192 billion. This year, an amount, obviously, much less than the K280 billion or US$50 million budgetary requirement to go onto the Rural Electrification Fund, still remains far short of the requirement to meet the target of electrifying the rural areas. This is normally what I compare to destination of any distance equals time versus speed. Clearly, it is for this reason that I have given you that it will be impossible for us to meet the requirement of the Vision 2030 at the rate we are allocating money towards this sector. This is the reason I think that the energy sector actually is very dislocated in this country and I thank my colleagues on your right for running the affairs of this country in such a way.

Madam Speaker, I would also like to say that back in 2000, the Rural Electrification Fund was established with the requirement that every electricity user was going to contribute 3 per cent on their utility bill towards the REA or fund in order to help accelerate the electrification process of the rural area. Just to demonstrate the bureaucracies that are associated with this Rural Electrification Fund is that ZESCO collects 3 per cent from every electricity user on their bill and it also reflects that every Zambian who enjoys electricity basically pays this 3 per cent. For argument’s sake, if I pay K100,000 towards ZESCO, K3,000 goes towards the Rural Electrification Fund; a fund which is collected by ZESCO and remitted to the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) for further transmission to the Bank of Zambia Control 99 which is then sent to the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and then to the Ministry of Energy and Water Development and hopefully to the Rural Electrification Fund. It goes through all those several accounts before it actually reaches its destination.

Madam Speaker, I had trouble checking whether all this money actually goes to the REA and what I found out was that it does not. When I made an inquiry, I was told that there were competing needs in our country. Now, in my view, I think that is a clear way of … If the word “cheating” was not so unparliamentary, I would have used it because this money all ought to go …

Madam Deputy Speaker: What word are you going to use then?

Mr Nkombo: It is a clear cut example of deception on the part of the people who are governing this country because all this money, regardless of the competing needs, ought to go to the intended purpose. For the purpose that every Zambian has been forced to pay a levy of 3 per cent for enjoying electricity for those of our friends and relatives who leave in the rural areas to enjoy the same. So, if this money does not all go to the intended purpose, in my very poor vocabulary of English, I think that it is a high level deception on the part of the Government. The Government ought to channel all this money to the intended purposes. I was told that, year after year, we suffer from disasters arising from extreme weather conditions and sometimes the disaster management has no money and, therefore, we have to get money from all sources to mitigate all this. I think that notwithstanding, it is only prudent that this money is all sent to the area of its originally intended purpose.

Madam Speaker, we were told, from the draft copy of REMP, that there were 1217 rural growth centres that were identified for electrification. This was back in 2006 when the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development brought REMP for the input of the hon. Members of Parliament. As my colleague, hon. Member for Kantanshi said, we have not seen any positive movement in this regard to see that this REMP is actually operationalised. What we have then intended to start electrifying Government institutions such as schools and clinics from the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) which will probably render this REMP, at the time it comes out, redundant. Therefore, we will probably need to go back to the drawing board.

So, Madam Speaker, what irks me is the speed at which this Government of the Movement for Multi-part Democracy (MMD) is working. It has bright ideas but, the pace at which it works, is very alarming and worrying.

Three years down the line, this document has not been operationalised and probably the Government wants to do this in 2011, which is an election year. However, those of us who are prudent hon. Members of Parliament would have already electrified certain places that are contained in REMP.

Madam, we have also been told in the report about increasing the sources of energy and the extension of the national grid through home solar systems as well as the building of mini-hydro plants. I think that the Government has failed lamentably to implement this. For example, three years ago, on the Floor of this, we discussed the development of the Lunzua Power Station. At the time, I think, the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development indicated that the contract was given to Olympic Milling Company. This company manufactures mealie-meal, but it was given a contract to develop a power station at Lunzua. We were also informed that a power station in Kabwe that produces 30 mega watts, I think it is called Lunsenfwa, also made a bid to develop Lunzua Power Station. This power station lost the bid without even being given a letter of regret. Three years down the line, Olympic Milling Company, which is designed and established to produce mealie-meal, has not done anything. We have not seen Lunzua Power Station being developed.

Madam Speaker, this same the Government has been extremely inconsistent with regards to the issue of the Itezhi-tezhi Power Station. That infrastructure was established many years ago in the 1970s. Therefore, it is very astonishing to see that the Government keeps on changing positions and giving falsehoods in terms of statements that Tata Power Company and ZESCO are actually working on developing this power station.

I just wish the hon. Minister was here, but I am sure, through his colleagues, he will be informed that it is unparliamentary to say things that are less than the truth on the Floor of this House. Today, it is a fact that Tata Power Company, ZESCO’s purported partner, has not moved an inch in terms of developing the Itezhi-tezhi Power Station. There are many people who are interested in developing this power station.

It actually makes me wonder why the hon. Minister deliberately decided, in his policy statement as we were approving his ministry’s Vote, not to make any mention of Itezhi-tezhi Power Station. He just kept quiet about it. I asked the Permanent Secretary why Itezhi-tezhi Power Station was not mentioned in the hon. Minister’s statement. The Permanent Secretary just murmured without saying anything. To me this means that for a long time to come, rehabilitation of the Itezhi-tezhi Power Station will be a daily song, but nothing will be done.

Madam Speaker, that power station has the capacity to produce 100 mega watts of electricity, which is sufficient to power the entire Copperbelt. Now, one wonders why the Government is dragging its feet. In physics, the time and distance covered is dependent upon the speed at which you move and this Government is stagnant. It is so stagnant that hon. Government Members drive their attention towards things that will not even pay dividends such as going to the by-election in Solwezi Central.

Madam Speaker, I want to now move on to the hospitality industry. It is a fact that this industry is dislocated by the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government. I am saying so because this year, which is just coming to an end and I want someone to challenge me, there is not a single tour operator, hotel or whatever they are called, that paid operating licence fees. The reason that has been given is that the Government wants to make a one stop shop for licensing. Can you imagine, for a second, how much revenue was lost as a result of such an irresponsible act of incompetence on the part of this Government? How can we let 360 days go by without collecting licence fees? I think it is an abomination and a sign that the Government is not serious at all.

Madam Speaker, I would like to also make a comment on the development of the northern circuit. It is a bright idea. Our hon. colleagues on your right have bright ideas and I have said this many times. When they are spoken to as individuals they seem to be clever, but when they are bunched together, the opposite happens. How can we develop the northern circuit and pump in so much money, and yet fail to establish a secretariat to just collect licence fees from tour operators?

This Government has failed to also regulate the big companies in the hospitality industry. I have a case in mind regarding Livingstone, which is our tourism capital. We had operators in Livingstone lamenting that the Government is not helping them by not regulating big operators such as Sun Hotel International and other big operators that have come to take over the shores of the Zambezi River. To start with, the big tourism operators do not even capacitate the locals and prefer to buy their tomatoes, onions, potatoes for chips and so forth across the border. This means that they do not support the local economy and even form cartels among themselves.

So, I think that the hon. Minister must look at this matter more critically to make sure that the playing field is leveled. We are also aware that there is a shareholder of Zambian origin in Sun Hotel International. Today, we have people who run guest lodges and, obviously, their vision is to one time run a big establishment like the Intercontinental Hotel. Therefore, this cartel that has been formed by these big operators must be curtailed by this Government.

Madam, I would also like to just make a quick comment on another subject. My contribution would be incomplete without talking about energy, vis-à-vis petrol and diesel. Two days ago I was coming from Solwezi, where I went to campaign and boost the spirit of our candidate. As I was returning, I ran out of fuel in Ndola, and yet the Indeni Oil Refinery, that is so much talked about, is located there. I had to go and buy some petrol that was decanted from 2.5 litre containers. At a certain point, the fellows who were selling the fuel looked at my vehicle, which I bought from this establishment after having been given a loan, and thought I was a hon. Government Minister and so they came to me and said, “Dimwe bamene mudyela imwe. Olomanje mwaona muimilila petrol musanga.” Meaning, “you are the people who are enjoying yourselves and now you are queuing up for fuel in the bush.” I said to him, “Sir, I am not an hon. Minister.” He said, “I know you, I see you on television. You must be part of the establishment.”  It is true I am part of the Government if we go by the three wings of Government. The guy then told me that, “Mukudya chabe ma meat pies. You are not sorting out our problems.”


Mr Nkombo: Sir, I was showered with these insults because of the way our colleagues on your right work. They just eat meat pies. So, I told him that, “Look, I am going to deliver the message.” Indeni Oil Refinery is located in Ndola and, therefore, Ndola must at least, have fuel. I was stuck for four hours until I managed to get 10 x 2.5 litres containers of petrol and I am sure my engine is even damaged because I do not know the source of that fuel.  
Madam, with those few words, I want to support the report of the Committee that I ably chaired for the last two years. I thank you very much.

Madam Deputy Speaker: That is the danger of debating your own report after the Chair has spoken. You tend to go on and on. I can see so many people wanting to speak. However, I think that the House has been guided that the report is here and, therefore, speak about it briefly so that your comments can be responded to. I will, therefore, allow one more hon. Member who has been indicating from the beginning and then we will move on.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, I realise that this is our report although I am not a Member of the Committee, so it must go to the Executive and in that regard, I am going to be very brief.

I wish to commend the mover of the Motion, Hon. Chanda and the seconder, Hon. Sichamba for the report that they have presented. The report that they have presented raised important issues.

I want to talk about GMAs and the work of the CRBs. In the GMAs, some of the resources that are earned from these areas are supposed to be ploughed back into the community through CRBs. If this system works well, it benefits the communities in those areas.

Unfortunately, in some areas, most of the resources that go to the CRBs are not used in the manner they are supposed to be used in order to benefit all the people in the area. Instead you would find that members of the CRBs, who are, maybe, the executive members and in some cases, their royal highnesses, might be taking the lion’s share of these resources, thus very little development will be taking place in these areas. My appeal is that these resources be used in such a way that the entire community benefits. The resources should be used on schools, water, sanitation or health projects that tend to benefit the community. In that way, they will take care of wildlife because they are benefiting from these resources. If they cannot get anything out of the resources that are coming from the CRBs, why should they starve themselves by not poaching? Madam Speaker, this is extremely important.

Madam Speaker, as regards electricity, it is true that it will take many years for the larger portion of our country to be electrified, more especially the rural areas. For now, in some communities, generators have to be relied on. Even if one wants to use geothermal engines, again, they have to power them with some petroleum fuels.

Madam Speaker, for many years, this House has debated the issue of petroleum pricing. Hon. Ministers after hon. Ministers have made assurances that the Government will introduce the uniform pricing of fuel across the country. Unfortunately, the status quo continues. The fuel in the rural areas is extremely costly compared to the one in urban areas. We all know that poverty in rural areas is much higher than in urban areas and if people are going to use generators, for instance, in rural health centres or any institution, it will be extremely costly because the cost of petroleum products which you need to power these generators is very high compared to urban areas.

Madam Speaker, when will the Government finally introduce uniform pricing? This is something that we have been talking about for many years and each hon. Minister, including my neighbour (Hon. Mutati), who is now at the Ministry of Commerce, Trade and Industry, had promised that the Government was going to introduce uniform pricing, but this has not happened. It is extremely important to relieve the people in rural areas of their suffering by introducing uniform pricing. We have said that energy, especially fuel energy, is the engine of development. Therefore, I do not think it is morally correct that we, who live in urban areas, must enjoy lower prices of fuel when it affects everything in the country regardless of where one lives. Why should our relatives in rural areas be punished to pay higher prices? I hope the Government will move in very quickly on this issue.

Madam Speaker, lastly, I will look at an issue related to the one the Member of Parliament for Mazabuka, Hon. Nkombo, talked about, that is the shortage of fuel. In this House, we passed a law where oil marketing companies (OMCs) are required to maintain a fifteen day strategic supply of fuel and the Government is also supposed to do that. However, I do not know what is happening because when we have a problem, we just run out of fuel immediately. This shows that we do not have the fifteen day’s cushion which we are supposed to have.

After this experience, I hope that all the concerned hon. Ministers and other hon. Members here are going to ensure that the laws of the land are implemented so that we are spared from this shock. You can imagine what would happen if we had some calamity or we had an attack from a foreign country when there is no fuel in the country. I think the situation would be a catastrophic. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Ministers responsible will look into this matter so that, come next year, we should not find ourselves in these problems.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Speaker, I thank you very much for this opportunity to provide tentative comments on the report of the Committee on Environment, Energy and Tourism. From the outset, let me commend the Committee for this excellent report and state that tourism can, indeed, generate export revenue which when injected into the national flow of income can effectively create what we call the tourism multiplier effect.

Madam Speaker, the Tourism and Hospitality Act 23 of 2007 will be amended in line with the Government licensing reforms in order to take care of the issues of licensing as the Government will realise that the multiple licenses frustrate the operators and negatively impact not just on the tourism sector, but many other sectors as well.

It is true that a well regulated hospitality sector is important in the stimulation and growth of the tourism sector and ultimately it contributes to the gross domestic product GDP.

On the need for training, I agree with what the Committee’s report says. The introduction of the tourism levy in this year’s budget is intended to raise resources for training and marketing to deal with the shortage of manpower in the sector. We also, as A Government, encourage the private sector to create partnerships and develop institutions to train the much needed manpower in the tourism sector.

Madam Speaker, allow me to thank the Committee for supporting ZAWA in its effort to run the GMAs. I am glad to note that there was a visit to Sichifulo Game Management Area. Although the Committee has not elaborated on its findings, I am sure they realised that ZAWA did its part in ensuring that they provided the necessary support to the people of Sichifulo Game Management Area.

Madam Speaker, the GMAs are created for the benefit of the local communities and the creation of the CRBs is meant to give a small token to appreciate the stewardship that the local communities provide over the wildlife resources. The wildlife resources, therefore, are meant not just for the current generation, but for future generations as well.

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s reference to the Kenya Wildlife Services is noted in the report and it is true that Kenya Wildlife Services has, indeed, made great strides towards contributing to tourism growth in Kenya and ultimately the contribution of tourism as a sector to the GDP.

Kenya’s economy, however, is much bigger than that of Zambia and Kenya has invested a lot of resources in Kenya Wildlife Services to the extent that the institution even own planes for them to patrol their national parks.

Kenya Wildlife Services is, therefore, able to generate more than 90 per cent of its resource requirements for operations. I would like to say it has achieved progressively and it is our vision, as a Government, that ZAWA will also reach the level that Kenya Wildlife Services has reached.

The hon. Member for Chienge will be happy, Madam Speaker, to learn that what he did not do will be done in 2010. We have provided K1 billion to restock the Nsumbu National Park. He should be happy with this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member for Mazabuka Central, Mr Nkombo, talked about the need for the big operators in Livingstone to provide support by buying their requirements, especially vegetables, from the local communities. I think this is an issue that we need to deal with as leadership at local level. If our operators are going to be more expensive than others outside the area of operation, we cannot force the business community to buy from them. There is really no reason why tomatoes must cost five times more than they would if one bought them from Lusaka and we cannot force the private sector to buy from them. He also talked about the Government talking to the Chairperson of Sun International. I hope he knows who the Chairperson of Sun International is. If he does not, I would like to tell him that he is one of the most inexperienced leaders of some political party out there.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Madam Speaker, lastly, on the issue of licensing, I would like to say, again, that the Tourism and Hospitality Bill will be brought to this House for amendment so that we can take into account the many other issues that have been raised in relation to this particular Act.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda: Madam Speaker, I thank all those hon. Members who debated the Motion.

As can be noted, most of the concerns have been placed on energy and I hope the Executive has taken note of all the issues raised. I also wish to thank the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources for responding to the concerns that were raised by hon. Members.

I thank you, Madam.

Question put and agreed to.



 the Chair]

(Consideration resumed)

VOTE 68 – (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources – K215,888,767,185).

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Madam Chairperson, thank you for according me this opportunity to present a policy statement in support of the 2010 Budget estimates for Head 68 – Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

The ministry’s mission statement is to provide a policy framework for the management and development of tourism, heritage and natural resources and the environment in order to contribute to sustainable socio-economic development for the benefit of present and future generations. The ministry has six statutory bodies, namely, the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA), the Zambia Tourism Board, the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ), the National Heritage and Conservation Commission, the National Museums Board and the Hotel and Tourism Training Institute Trust (HTTIT).

Mr Chairperson, the total 2010 budget estimate for the ministry is K215,888,767,185. In keeping with the Government’s overall developmental agenda of poverty reduction and employment creation, my ministry has ensured that the allocation of resources in this year’s budget reflects the priority and programmes with the greatest impact on the national economy and contribution towards improvement of livelihoods. In this regard, the focus of my ministry’s 2010 budget is to continue accelerating tourism development through opening up prime tourism areas for private sector investment. The tourism sector, among others, has the potential to contribute to increased foreign exchange earnings and employment creation.

Sir, allow me to present my policy statement by sectors beginning with tourism as the priority area of focus. My ministry will, in 2010, focus on tourism development through enhancing and strengthening efforts started early this year. That includes opening up of the Northern Circuit for tourism investment which covers the Northern and Luapula provinces as well as expanding tourism developments in greater Livingstone. To this effect, the preparation of an integrated development plan for Kasaba Bay and the area action plan for Livingstone have reached an advanced stage with the identification of nine sites and twenty sites for Livingstone and Kasaba Bay respectively. In addition, investment promotional materials are being produced for use in marketing the identified sites to attract world class investments.

Sir, in order to offer a diversified and competitive tourism product, my ministry has also embarked on the rehabilitation of heritage sites and construction of cultural centres. Wildlife will continue to be Zambia’s main tourism product for years to come.

In this regard, the protection of the wildlife resources, including its habitat, will continue to be of prime importance to the promotion of tourism. In addition to resource protection, the policy and legal framework for wildlife management are being reviewed in order to make them more responsive to emerging challenges.

Mr Chairperson, in order to cushion the secondary effects of the global economic downturn, my ministry, in collaboration with the private sector has embarked on promoting domestic tourism aimed at providing affordable packages to the local people.

According to the United Nations World Tourism Organisation (UNWTO), the tourism industry in countries with a strong domestic base has shown resilience during periods of low economic activities.

Mr Chairperson, the effective marketing of Zambia as a tourist destination in important source markets continues to be hampered by critical financial constraints. In this regard, my ministry is working out modalities of administering the Tourism Levy that the Government has just introduced. The levy will go towards tourism marketing, product development and training.

I wish, therefore, to take this opportunity to thank the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the bold step he has taken in introducing the levy, which will, no doubt, enhance investments in the sector.

Mr Chairperson, in order to improve the legal and regulatory environment in the tourism sector, the amendments to the Tourism and Hospitality Act No.23 0f 2007, will be tabled in the House to streamline its licensing provisions so that they contribute to reducing the cost of doing business in the sector. Accordingly, I wish to take this opportunity to enlist the hon. Members’ support when the Bill comes to the Floor of the House for debate.

The classification and grading system for accommodation establishments to ensure quality assurance is also being put in place.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to environment and natural resources management, my ministry continues to put measures in place to ensure a balance between economic development and the need to protect the environment. To this effect, on 30th June, this year, the President of the Republic of Zambia launched the National Policy on Environment (NPE) whose aim is to safeguard the environment against degradation from accelerated social economic development.

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased to inform the House that my ministry has commenced the preparation of a climate change response strategy. The strategy is aimed at coming up with a co-ordinated response in dealing with the effects of climate change in order to reduce our vulnerability as a nation to its adverse impacts.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to inform the House that my ministry, as part of the Business Licensing Reforms, has concluded public consultations on amending the Environmental Impact Assessment Regulations so as to address the concerns raised by developers and investors.

In order to strengthen the ministry’s capacity to effectively co-ordinate and manage the sector as well as to integrate environmental considerations in other sectors, an environment and natural resources management and mainstreaming programme has been developed. The programme provides for the establishment of an environmental fund aimed at providing financial resources for interventions in the sector.

Mr Chairperson, my ministry continues to recognise the importance of forests in the socio-economic development of our country. The level of deforestation and degradation in the country continues to be a source of great concern to the Government and is being accorded due attention.
To mitigate the high rate of deforestation and land degradation in our country, my ministry will continue with the nationwide campaign to increase forest cover. In this regard, His Excellency, the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has appointed the First Republican President, Dr Kenneth David Kaunda, to complement the ministry’s effort in raising awareness on the importance of sustainable forest resources management.

As Zambia aspires to attain its vision to be a middle income country by 2030, the demand on wood products will increase. The capacity of the forest sector to supply wood products to satisfy the ever growing demand is becoming increasingly constrained. The opportunities to increase production volume based on indigenous forest is limited mainly because a large portion of the resource is far from the markets and not well stocked and, therefore, not economically exploitable. In this regard, my ministry will continue with the National Plantation Expansion Programme.

Mr Chairperson, the Government recognises that the current legal framework for the management and protection of forest resources needs to be amended in order to strengthen it. In this regard, the nationwide consultations on the review of the Forestry Policy have been concluded. The Forestry Act will subsequently be amended to take the policy pronouncements into account.

Mr Chairperson, as I conclude my statement, I wish to reiterate the importance of tourism in the country’s economic diversification agenda. With the right policy measures in place, tourism is poised to take its rightful place as the main driver of the country’s economy.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Chairperson, I promise to be brief. Let me begin by saying that high performers should always be commended although I am aware that there is the question of collective responsibility. However, it is important to say that when a Cabinet Minister and his managers demonstrate that they are high performers, we have to commend them. I, therefore, commend the hon. Minister …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Kasongo: … and her top managers for having demonstrated to Zambians that the institution they are heading can be transformed into one of the major sources of our revenue. Well done and keep it up.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: You should, however, not relax. You have to make sure that you complement the effort of the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning in sourcing funds so that the programmes that we initiate and reflect in our Budget are implemented as quickly as possible.

Sir, allow me to comment briefly on the ownership of the Forestry Department. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to take ownership of this department. In other words, there is need for you, hon. Minister, to revise the current policy which allows business people to enter into your plantations and cut down trees. I think this arrangement has been very destructive.

Mr Chairperson, ownership must go back to the ministry. You need to strengthen the Forestry Department like it was in the past where it was empowered with equipment and resources to cut down trees and sell to the public. In my view, this should be the best arrangement.

 The current situation where you allow business people to enter the plantations and begin to destroy trees is very retrogressive. This policy must be reviewed.

Mr Chairperson, Samfya Plantation has been one of the casualties. You have allowed an individual of Asian origin, for that matter, to cut down trees without even replanting them. You have to review this policy. Side by side with the same review that you are going to undertake, please, ensure that you begin having nurseries in all areas where you have plantations so that once you cut down all the trees, you will begin replanting. I think this should be the best arrangement in my view.

Secondly, you are aware that a lot of people have been attacked by crocodiles and have lost their lives. The current position of ZAWA, through the ministry, is that it is going to undertake a headcount of crocodiles which are available in our lakes and rivers. I think it has taken a long time. I remember that the ban was imposed a long time ago during the United National Independence Party (UNIP) administration and no action has been taken to review it, but a lot of people have lost their lives. Lake Bangweulu is no exception. A lot of people have been attacked by crocodiles. Unfortunately, even our fish has been eaten by these crocodiles.


Mr Kasongo: Yesterday, when I was making my contribution, I said we bathed with fish, but I was condemned by my cousins from the Eastern Province that that could not happen. They suggested that I should have said that we swam with fish. However, I urged them to understand the context in which I made that contribution. We hold fish dear to our hearts, which crocodiles have contributed to its depletion. Please, hon. Minister take action. Conduct the headcount so that a lot of our people can be spared because the notion that has been created now is that you value animals than human beings. I think you have to change this perception. The best you can do, hon. Minister, is to ensure that you conduct the headcount exercise as quickly as possible and send your professionals to begin cropping these crocodiles which have killed a lot of people.

Finally, the initiative that you, hon. Minister, have taken to empower Zambians by establishing a lot of tourism houses should be commended, but you have to go beyond that. Let us not focus so much on Livingstone and I am happy that you have now moved to Kasaba Bay. That is very commendable. Samfya and many other places are also waiting for you. Please, encourage as many Zambians as possible to take part in tourism promotion. There are a number of huddles, especially when you talk about these areas where you have a lot of white people. They have put boundaries around their areas suggesting that they are for non Zambians only. You have to change that syndrome. Zambians must be allowed to penetrate all these areas which are currently being controlled by non Zambians. That is the best you can do to empower Zambians economically.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

First of all, let me join my brother, Hon. Kasongo, in commending the hon. Minister for this ministry. We cannot have a better hon. Minister of Tourism …



Dr Kalumba: Hon. Scott, good afternoon.


Dr Kalumba: You look very well.


Dr Kalumba: Thank you.

Sir, we cannot have a better hon. Minister to market our country’s tourism world.


Dr Kalumba: She is a beautiful spectacle in her own right.


Mr Lubinda: Aah!

Dr Kalumba: I would like to start by acknowledging that the forest issue is a very important one. Therefore, I urge hon. Members of Parliament that in addition to the efforts that the Government has put in place by appointing a very important name in this country, the first President …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hour until 1630 hours.

 the Chair]

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, before the break, I was belabouring the point on leadership in the forestation exercise. I am grateful that His Excellency the President has appointed a very eminent Zambian, the first President of the Republic of Zambia, Dr Kenneth David Kaunda, to lead this initiative at the national level.

However, I believe that our hon. Members of Parliament can play a pivotal role in ensuring that this exercise succeeds. Why not initiate, in our constituencies, special plantation activities that are driven by hon. Members of Parliament? I have not seen one in Kanfinsa.


Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Ignore that man who debates while seated.


The Deputy Chairperson: Continue, hon. Member.

Dr Kalumba: I believe that we, as hon. Members, can be agents of change in this respect. We do not want to be like those hon. Members who took the first Republican President to the Northern Province to show him how the Chitemene System had destroyed the forest. Thereafter, also took some of our traditional leaders with them and praised the people on how they had cut the fields wide and stating that they were great farmers. In fact, the Chitemene System, at that time, was considered to be one of the inimical methods, for lack of a better word, I think, Dr Guy Scott can correct me, …


Dr Kalumba: …that was used to increase deforestation.

Sir, apart from this, I have noted that we do not have the preceptorial capacity within our state machinery, which existed in the colonial period. We had the Kapenda mabulas in the colonial period who were active in supervising the activities in these forests. However, at the moment, we have one district officer per district. I think, we need to improve our policing activities in this respect. Particularly, when we realise that there is a fundamental conflict between energy requirements in our rural and urban households because of the demand for charcoal and the need to increase our forests. That is why I am deeply concerned with the Ministry of Energy and Water Development. I think we need to do more. The President has shown leadership on this and everybody supports the ministry.

Mr Chairperson, we support the ministry, but somehow, something is not going right there. I am sorry to say this, but, I think, it is important to put some more gibes and gibels in this ministry to be more creative and afford our people effective and efficient sources of energy.

Sir, coming back to tourism regarding national parks, I am a fun of the Liuwa National Park. It is a beautiful national park. It is just out of this world and you know it, hon. Minister.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: It is only second to the Serengeti National Park in Kenya.  I mean, this is a beautiful national park when you go there at the right time.

Mr Chairperson, going to this park at the right time and seeing this great throng of beasts moving from Angola to the Congo through this park is beautiful and lovable. Therefore, it is also painful to see that the road infrastructure is not there. You cannot easily get to Liuwa National Parkas as there is a problem of accessing it. We need to appreciate it because God has given us this beautiful diamond, but we want somebody else to come and polish it. It is about time we appreciated what we already have.

Mr Chairperson, Nyika Plateau, on the Malawian side is beautiful on the Malawian side. It makes one feel as if they are on a different planet. It is a beautiful piece of real estate. However, when you go on the Zambian side, you will find that it is neglected.  Why would we want to go to Scotland for tourism when we have got such a beautiful place. I love the Scots and that is why I have chosen Scotland.


Dr Kalumba: Sir, I am talking about beautiful places. In this regard, I would like to invite hon. Members to visit Kilwa Island on Lake Mweru. It is a fantastic place. One will find everything they would want to see. There are curves, slave posts, beaches, fantastic white sand and water base for swimming. What else can you want? I would not even want to Mauritius. I would like to Kilwa Island. Unfortunately, there is no airstrip for light planes to land on. There is no electricity as well. How do you expect a tourist to go there and sit in the dark? Zambia should do something. That is a beautiful place.

Sir, of course, I would like to invite Hon. Scot to go with me and walk the walk that I did some years ago when I was walking through Mweru-Wantipa Game Park. I will show him beautiful curve paintings and fantastic rock art. This is part of our national heritage and these things have not been documented at all. If I take you to Nakila Hills, where I found refuge, …


Dr Kalumba:…the beauty is absolutely unbelievable. The curves there were so invisible that no policeman could find me.


Dr Kalumba: That is how beautiful that place is. That is part of our natural heritage.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Dr Kalumba, we are not interested in your invisibility.


The Deputy Chairperson: We want you to tell us more about those islands. Can you continue.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, I just want to talk about Lundazi, which has a beautiful old Castle Hotel. It is the only place where we can find such a hotel. It is fantastic. That is one of the heritage sites we should include in our tourism facility list. Sir, you come from a beautiful place.

Mr Chairperson, for those people who love fishing or angling, I want to tell them that the best places to go to are Kafue River and Lake Tanganyika. I went there when I was an hon. Minister and it is fantastic. You just put a hook in the water and you will catch the best fish. In the Western Province, we have Senanga District which also has tourist attractions. I do not know what else God needs to give us for us to be rich. We already have everything. 

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to make a brief point about the localisation of domestication of the tourism industry. I spent the other weekend in a six star hotel in Livingstone. In the morning, I asked the management for The Post newspaper and they said they would get it off the internet. Eventually, they brought me the Washington Post.


Dr Scott: If one wonders at the lack of Zambians that make use of our tourism facilities, I think that is a good starting point. It was not the ordinary workers of the hotel who made the mistake.  They knew perfectly well who I was and all of them were supporters of the pact, Sir.


Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, now, allow me to say something about the broader context of the GMAs and forest conservation. As Hon. Kalumba has indicated, in the old days, the reason the forests were managed, including the ecologically sound system of chitemene, was that there was indirect rule. The chiefs, their royal establishments and their various agencies, local to the areas, were able to control the Chitemene System. They were able to keep it within bounds in terms of titled area and to keep the ownership, which, of course, had to stretch over considerable periods of time because of the recovery period of the vegetation which was ten, fifteen or even more years. It was locally governed.

Sir, the reason it was necessary to employ elephant control officers under the colonial Government was that the conservation was so good that these things were becoming like vermin. They would be squeezing each other to get the maize or finger millet. They also needed to be controlled for the safety of people and also for their food supply. When the great forester, as I understand he now is, came into power, he centralised the administration of Zambia. He took away the powers of the chiefs because they were regarded as part and parcel of the colonial Government or agents of the colonial Government.

Mr Chairperson, many things fell into disrepair. For example, cattle dipping stopped because that was also being controlled by the royal establishment especially in Southern Province. The royal establishments hired the Kapitaus, who were trained by the Government and were responsible for enforcing the dipping of cattle, like wise, the control of the Chitemene System and the control of many other things which cannot be done from the centre.

Sir, further more, anarchy started to prevail in the rural areas. The situation got so bad that by 1986, the great helmsman himself realised that he had created a crisis. The response normally attributed to the Lower Lupande Workshop of 1986, which was the invention of the decentralised system, at least, of game management control. This was the system known as ADMADE (Administrative Management Design), which stands for some funny acronym which does not mean anything. However, it was a system were the chiefs’ royal establishements were given back responsibility for the management of wildlife in their areas and in return, as the government, if you may call it, of that local area, they were given a large proportion of the benefits accruing from game and sport hunting, which is the main way and in which the GMA game populations are utilised in Zambia. I think there is no doubt at all. ADMADE was a huge success because, after all, these GMAs, like these local forest resorts, are customary land. As customary land, the use of land is a responsibility of the royal establishment.

By definition, if one wants to go and farm in one of these areas, you go and see the chief, the headman or the chief of chiefs. He or she does not go and talk to the Local District Commissioner, the District Government or the Ministry of Lands. If you are looking into operating in a customary system, the customary government is the one which controls and gives you access. I think it has been a success to a certain point because there were so many interested parties that the potential for conflicts is enormous.

ZAWA itself wants to make money from these areas. There are other hunting concession companies that want to get away with as little as they possibly can and overshoot as much as they can, and believe me, Mr Chairperson, they do. It is very difficult because it is fraught with conflict. 
Mr Chairperson, one interesting development when the late Hon. Katele Kalumba …


Dr Scott: I beg your pardon, the current Hon. Katele Kalumba was Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Dr Scott, I do not see the relationship between current and late.


The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, be careful. I hope this was not a deliberate statement.

Dr Scott: Mr Chairperson, I meant to say the earlier Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources.

Hon. Opposition Member: The newly resurrected Minister.

Dr Scott: The current Wildlife Act was brought in under pressure from the European Union (EU) to basically, I will not use the word blackmail, which surely is not parliamentary, bring it into a kind of idealised democratic format, where traditional rulers, who have the power over the land and animals, had their powers devolved to an elected committee called the CRB, without specifying how the elections would be conducted. Luckily, in most cases, the chiefs have managed to “Mac Gyver” …


Dr Scott: … the CRB to being part of their establishment.

Hon. Member: What is the meaning of “Mac Gyver”?

Dr Scott: To improvise …


Dr Scott: Therefore, there is a minimum of conflict in most areas between these so-called democratic institutions and the traditional institutions.

Mr Chairperson, recently, some chiefs have been asking why they cannot also be given control of the forests because they know their forests very well. They know where every tree, genuine and fake farmer is. They know who the land grabbers are and who every sincere citizen of these areas is. Why not the royal establishments? Perhaps, with technical advice from land use specialists, agriculturalists and foresters, we may know who is responsible for these things. There is some real desperation out there.

I am sure the current hon. Minister, and there is to be no doubt which minister we are talking about, is aware of the rate of deforestation. She, herself, has made mention of it and this is because there is nobody there.

Mr Chairperson, the Government tried to conserve game animals using the Save the Rhino Fund. It trained unarmed game scouts to the teeth, put them in helicopters and aircraft with parachutes and went to try to catch the poachers. They completely failed because the poachers faded into the environment and in some cases paid licence fees to the chiefs for what they were being surreptitiously allowed to hunt. 
I would like to urge the hon. Minister to look at this in the larger context of local governance. What do we want of our chiefs? I read in this morning’s paper a list of hon. Members of this Parliament who are accusing us, as Patriotic Front, of making them disgusted by our attitude towards chiefs. I assure you, Sir, as a policy maker, in that organisation, we want more power, dignity and responsibility in the hands of the chiefs.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: We do not want them merely compromised by the kind of patronage of neo-patrimonialism that has come to replace the One Party State.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: We want to see them busy at it, taking responsibility. If someone comes and says “My cattle have got denkete”, it should not be Hon. Bradford Machila who takes the blame for somebody’s cattle having denkete. It should be the local chiefs because it would mean that they are not seeing to it that the cattle are dipped.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: This is the way the system ought to work even if, in practice, everybody rushes to the center and asks for this and that. Please, let us sort out that problem. It is not the right way of doing it.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to give to the hon. Minister one little specific challenge.  The Kafue National Park is nearly completely surrounded by GMAs. The function of these GMAs is, of course, to act as a buffer and also an off-take for the surplus from the park. This is the philosophy of GMAs. The only portion of the border of the Kafue National Park that is not protected by the GMA is the area in Kaoma.  The reason for this is the difficulty that our Government seems to find with coming to a suitable arrangement with a truly powerful traditional establishment, which has its own customary laws of conservation which were somehow solved in the case of the beautiful Liuwa, through which animals transit in and out of our country.

Mr Chairperson, in Chief Kahare’s area, for instance, which is on the left as you pass through the Kafue National Park, I did a survey some years back. I wanted to interview some young men and women on the GMA. I played a dirty trick by putting out the news that we were hiring game scouts. The room was fully packed. A single extra cat could not get into the classroom where I was holding the meeting. There were people looking in through windows and trying to listen in from outside. There was nothing they wanted more than to be self-regulating conservationists in their home area.

The idea of being a game scout for them was heaven because it meant that they could comply with the law, add value to their home area and re-instate the original populations with which their grandparents had grown up. There was no problem either from the chief or Ngambela or anyone else. The only problem was that somehow the powers that be could not put it together. When I asked these young men and women what they did, and because I did not have a pair of handcuffs, they told me that they acted as carriers for poachers from Kaoma and even further west into Angola. They were completely open and honest about it and I am sure nothing has changed.

Mr Chairperson, we need to rethink this whole business of the deep rural areas and how we can manage them and return to them the feeling of not being sidelined or dependent upon patronage from the center. The governance issue is a local government issue. It is the kind of thing that we ought to be talking about at the National Constitutional Conference (NCC), but I doubt it.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for having given me this opportunity to debate. I promise that my debate will be the shortest because there is only one or two concerns that I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister. I commend the hon. Minister for the statement she made, particularly about opening up the Northern Circuit, consisting of the Luapula and Northern provinces, for tourism.

Mr Chairperson, there is, however, a sad state of affairs in the Forest Department of the hon. Member’s ministry. Time and again, wood cutting, even commercial wood cutting, is attributed to our communities in the villages, but little does the ministry know that actually the culprits are forest officers who buy machinery, saws and the like and give to the villagers to cut trees for them so that they can sell them. 

This money goes back into their pockets. This is how the Government is losing a lot of revenue. This is actually happening, especially in Luapula and Mwense in particular. Therefore, I would like to ask the hon. Minister to follow-up this issue. Probably, the whole problem is coming from not having effective management systems which the hon. Minister should look at.

Mr Chairperson, the last issue is that there is a need to know that I have been in the Committee of Government Assurances for the last three years of which, last year, I was privileged to chair.

Sir, it is surprising to note that the hon. Minister has just told us that the Government intends to put in place a Forest Act. I believe that this is the second time this is being said. If it is not yesterday, it could have been on Friday or Thursday when the hon. Minister talked about the new Forest Act when, actually, there is already a Forest Act Number 7 of 1999 in place. This ministry has failed to implement this Act alleging that it cannot commence this or set up the Forest Commission because it does not have enough funds. At the same time, the Government is saying that the Forest Fund can only be established by the Forest Commission. This has created serious problems. The mnistry does not know which one to start with between the Forest Commission and the Forest Fund. Each of these elements depends on the establishment of the other. There is a problem.

Mr Chairperson, the House may wish to know that the Attorney-General went to the extent of advising the ministry that since the Act was put in place, there was no way it could be reversed or repealed  because it had to be implemented. Now, because there is that problem, he advised the putting of up a commencement order through a Statutory Instrument to, at least, effect it for some time before it is repealed. The ministry has not done that. The question is that how come it wants to put another Forest Act in place when there is already one which has not been implemented?

Mr Chairperson I just want the hon. Minister to clarify on that matter.

With these few remarks, I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Before I give the Floor to Dr Musonda, let me commend Mr Chongo for being brief. Really, a number of us who speak would spend fifteen or more minutes repeating what others have already said, hence reducing on the number of debaters. I just wanted to commend you for that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda (Chitambo): Mr Chairperson, I would like to join other hon. Members in commending the hon. Minister for her work in the ministry, which is giving us a lot of hope that one day, from this ministry, we, as a Government, will be earning a lot of money that we need in other ministries.

In doing so, I would want to make one appeal to the hon. Minister, through you, Sir. I want to talk about the issue of professionalism of the ZAWA officers in carrying out their duties. Maybe, before I elaborate this issue, let me try to give an insight into how Chitambo is in relation to the National Park so that you appreciate that most of the people of Chitambo actually live in the GMAs. Therefore, this means that they are always rubbing shoulders with animals.

Sir, the biggest challenge that I have as an hon. Member of Parliament for Chitambo, which I even mentioned in my maiden speech is to try and bring harmony between ZAWA officers and the people of Chitambo. However, there are some challenges that I will mention and have been highlighted in the report which has just been adopted.

Sir, poaching is one of the biggest problems that, I think, the ministry is facing. Lack of appreciation of the public at large of the role of ZAWA in the GMA is also another big problem which the ministry is facing. There is also inadequate transport and field equipment to effectively police the vast wildlife aspects. Therefore, we have a problem in that the ZAWA officers have their own problems and the people also have some problems. I would, therefore, like to urge the hon. Minister to quickly try and resolve this problem. By so doing, it will help the hon. Minister in so many ways to try and foster her developmental programmes in the ministry.

Sir, I will give you some good examples. The region covered by Kasanka National Park all the way from the Great North Road up to the Tuta Road is vast. Part of it, but on the left is all Kasanka National Park. As you go towards the end and towards the Tuta Road, there is the Bangweulu Wetlands. This borders Hon. Kasongo’s and Kanchibiya constituencies on the other side. There is also Chiundaponde on the other side which is another National Park. Therefore, people are right in the middle of the park. Therefore, what happens, sometimes, is that elephants would be crossing between Kasanka National Park and the Bangweulu Wetlands passing through villages and causing destruction.

Sir, the problem that we are facing is that as those animals are crossing, sometimes, people kill them. One message that we have given to the people of Chitambo, which I have done on so many occasions as well, is for them not to kill any animal because the law will face them.

Mr Chairperson, even during bush fires, the animals will come and get into houses. You just have to open the doors so that they leave and go back to the bush, but you are not supposed to kill them.

Mr Kambwili: Question! 

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, I think there are no game parks in Luanshya where the biggest heckler stays. Therefore, he cannot imagine wha I am talking about.

 Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, in certain instances, people are tempted and when that happens, they might kill one or two animals. The response that they get from the ZAWA officers is excessive. Instead of just arresting them and taking them to the police so that the law takes its course, they beat them up. Sometimes, the force is so excessive that they get beaten even to death and this creates big tension between the ZAWA officers and the community.

Worse still, some of the money which comes through the Community Resource Board which gets about 45 per cent from the fees people pay for hunting and is supposed to go directly to the communities so that communities can appreciate the value animals, which tourist come to see year in and year out, is not seen by the communities. Therefore, my appeal is to the hon. Minister to ensure that the CRBs are strengthened so that the local people can be held accountable because some of the money that comes through the CRB just benefits a few. In fact, I will not even mention the money which goes to chiefs because I do not want to scotch my fingers, but, probably, chiefs could be good beneficiaries of that money because they have a 5 per cent share. Therefore, the majority of the communities do not see how the money from the CRBs is used because they are not strengthened.

Sir, the issue of the professionalism of the ZAWA officers is doubtful because if they were so professional they could really help our hon. Minister who is doing so well to try and foster the programmes that she has mentioned. They need to be educated to be very professional in that when somebody has broken the law concerning wildlife, they should not be beaten. They need to be handled professionally.

Sir, last week, we heard some news from the Eastern Province that a poacher shot a ZAWA officer in the head. On the other hand, I was in Chitambo two weeks ago trying to bring down the fire in a situation where a ZAWA officer beat up a young man to death. The whole community rose against officer and there was chaos. What does that mean? What that means is that as the ZAWA officers are in trouble with the community, the wildlife opens up for grabs.

In the recent past, as we travelled from the Great North Road towards Mansa using the Tuta Road, we used to see very nice impalas on the way; beautiful. This time, you can hardly see any. This is because of the relationship between ZAWA and the community which has actually led to a war. Hon. Minister, through you, Mr Chairperson, we cannot ignore the fact that we need to improve this relationship so that the ZAWA officers can maintain their position in the community and the community also should accept them. Otherwise, if this relationship continues to be the way it is at the moment, whoever is seen first has to be shot at. Or whoever is caught with animals has to be beaten. At the end of the day, the police will take action like it has happened in Serenje where they have arrested the ZAWA officers. This means we have left no one to protect the wildlife because they have broken the law as well.

These are some of the problems I have and I am sure it is not only affecting my constituency, but also other areas. This is the appeal I wanted to make to the hon. Minister.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, let me start by saying I will try to be brief, because there are only two matters I would like to address.

Firstly, it is the issue of climate change which the hon. Minister spoke about. Sir, the issue of climate change, as far as I am concerned, should qualify to be referred to as “the triple tragedy of Africa” for a number of reasons. Like my colleague said before me and echoed by hon. Dr Guy Scott, we, in Africa, were told that, “Can you change your agricultural systems of cultivating and start using fertilisers because that is the best way to produce.” In the process what were we doing? Damaging our soils.

Sir, while we were doing that, those experts brought us into a second tragedy, the tragedy of disproportionate exploitation of our natural resources. Our timber is being cut, ferried and transported across seas only to be brought back in the form of cheap furniture.

The third is the current tragedy where we are now being told, “Do not follow the same path we followed in developing our people and improving the welfare of the lives of our people. Instead, cut down on carbon emissions.” The triple tragedy of the poor world. The triple tragedy of Africa and of Zambia. It is, therefore, imperative upon us gathered here to start to ask these very important questions. What did Zambia benefit from the Kyoto Agreement? We are supposed to be trading in carbon, but what have we benefited from that?

Now, Copenhagen is coming, but I am glad to mention that the hon. Minister has organised a seminar for us, though belatedly, but how I wish this seminar was held two years ago. Other countries started talking about climate change and the impact it has on their lives and economies twelve years ago.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: This Parliament is only going to be told tomorrow, and yet Copenhagen is meeting on the 7th of December. What I would have wanted to hear, Sir, from the hon. Minister, is what message Zambia is taking to Copenhagen. What are you going to bargain for? Everyone in the world now is preparing themselves for the debate in Copenhagen. There are some people now who are planning strategies for their countries. What are we doing ourselves?

Sir, it is known that 70 per cent of the carbon dioxide emission in the world comes from the industrialised countries despite their having only 20 per cent of the global population. Where does that put Zambia?

In comparison to the emissions by the developed world, Zambia’s carbon emission is close to zero, and yet we debate here day and night that we should cut down on using this and that fuel without asking ourselves the question: Why is it that we should not use the same projection that the United States of America used to develop? Why is it that we in Africa when it is now our turn to start providing cheaper electricity to our people, are being told not to do it, but cut down on carbon emission?

The point I am driving at, Sir, is that that world owes this world a lot. The message that should go from this Parliament to the United Nations Conference on Climate Change must be one that is clear, simple and straight forward. We reject any kind of loans for mitigation against climate change because we are not responsible for the damage to the environment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Those who are responsible must pay.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Though they are forcing us to pay debt, they also owe us what I want to refer to as the “climate debt.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: For heaven’s sake, they must not come here and give us a loan. What they should do is own up and take responsibility and give Africa, the developing world …

Mr Kambwili: Grants!

Mr Lubinda: … grants.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: In this whole thing, it is Africa that is assisting them. They eat two ice creams a day per child. To produce those ice creams, imagine the green house effects. In Africa, when people talk about bread and butter issues, I even wonder if they know about the bread and butter issues. We are talking about mbowa issues here. We are talking about kapenta issues.

Mr D. Mwila: Absolutely!

Mr Lubinda: Not about bread and butter issues. The production of our kapenta and mbowa is not damaging to the environment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: When we consume our mushrooms, it is not damaging to the environment.

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: When our children eat caterpillar as a snack, it is not damaging to our environment, …

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: … and yet their children are having chocolate. When our children are walking miles on end to go to their schools, their children are going on scooters and BMWs. Now they are saying to us, “Reduce on consumption so that you can take care of our carbon emission …

Mr Kambwili: No!

Mr Lubinda: … and in the process we will give you a loan.” No! The message from Zambia must be loud and clear.

Mr Kambwili: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Zambians deserve a fair share of this our common planet. As regards the utilisation of cellular phones, we use one ka cellular phone here when they are using six per person.


Mr Lubinda: Sir, I want to come back home and in doing so, I want to say that, hon. Minister, there is an increase in your budget, but in a year when you are lamenting, yourself, the issue of the impact of the climate change on our economy, look at the increase that has been provided for two very important areas, which are the departments of Forestry and Natural Resources and Environment. From a figure of K39.7 billion last year, these two departments, which are supposed to take care of our environment, have only been given an additional K900 million.

My colleagues were lamenting the depletion of our forests. We ought to be replanting those forests. Are we going to replant them if we are giving the ministry only a K900 million increase in the department of forestry and in the department of natural resources and environment? There is only K4 million in the budget for tree planting. For goodness sake, how many trees shall we plant?

Yesterday, I was speaking with my colleagues on the right and I told them that listening to the debates in this House, and if somebody had to conduct a study to see and compare the debates over the years, they will come to a lamentable conclusion that Zambia is stagnant because the very things that we spoke about in 2002, are still spoken about today. Instead of us saying that the trees that we planted in 2002 now require pruning for them to grow better, we are still saying that we need to plant trees. Where are we going? We are running at a very high speed, but on a treadmill because we are at the same point sweating and bruising each other in Solwezi, standing still.

Mr Chairperson, instead of addressing these cardinal issues and focusing on how much money we are giving to this very important ministry, we, instead, are lamentably spending time on wrong things.

Another matter is the issue of the ECZ which was established by this House and given the mandate to advise the Government, but every time they give the Government advice, it falls on deaf ears. As I speak to you now, Forest No. 26 and No. 27 is also gone and these are not going away because they are being shared by the people of Zambia, they are going away because of a greedy few. Honestly, in a country such as ours, where the majority of the people live in shanty compounds and in areas where they have no access to safe drinking water and electricity, can you afford to give the whole forest to two investors and tell them to demarcate land and sell it back to the Zambians? Surely, I would like to ask my colleagues on your right and those who can, I will give them a free ride to forests 26 and 27 to see what is happening. The Chalimbana catchment area is devastated and soon the people downstream will not have water, let alone imbowa. We are talking about drinking water which they will not have. We have said before that forests No. 26 and No. 27 are the recharges for the whole of Lusaka.

Mr Shakafuswa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I rarely stand on points of order, but now I rise on a very serious point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor, who is speaking so well, in order not to mention who these two private people who have been given forests No. 26 and No. 27 are so that we know them. I need your serious ruling.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mention!

The Deputy Chairperson: No! He should not mention the names because if he does that, he will be out of order.


Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, let me move on to another matter related to climate change and this has to do with the pollution to our environment. With regard to this, I am extremely concerned that this Government is definitely quiet over the issue of controlling solid waste in this country. You cannot have a city where everywhere you turn, you find heaps of plastic and empty boxes of chibuku and tujilijili. You also find empty bottles of kachasu and you cannot have a country like that without having this ministry coming up with a strategy on how to ensure that the solid waste is cleaned. That is the very solid waste going into our rivers and chocking our imbowa and as a result of that we are not having enough fish for the people in the Luapula and Northern provinces and for some people along the Zambezi in the Southern Province because of that pollution.

Mr Chairperson, we cannot have this ministry sitting back without talking about the emissions into our rivers. Very often, our colleagues on your right like to blame councils for solid waste management. I would like to remind them that councils are simply agents of the Central Government. The failure of councils cannot be blamed on councils themselves because their failure is for the centre. As things are, all councils are totally dependent on this Government for funding because all the taxes were taken away, including recently, when the crop levy was taken away. How then do you expect them to go and collect solid waste? They will not do it

Mr Chairperson, I will end by saying whilst I agree with the idea of coming up with the climate change response strategy, I want to say that this action is far too late because even our colleagues across the border in Zimbabwe did their strategy more than seven years ago. All you have to do is go to google on the internet and you will find a beautiful well illustrated strategy when we are coming up with one now and coming up with it after …

Dr Kalumba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order…


Dr Kalumba: Is the hon. Member for Kabwata whom, as my colleague said, is speaking very well, in order not to really clarify these apportionment of forests 26 and 27 so that we have a good understanding as hon. Members of what the implication of that apportioning to a foreign investor or whoever it is for the water supply situation in Lusaka. Is he in order to leave us in suspense like this?


The Deputy Chairperson: That is an indirect way of asking him to mention the names, but the Chairperson has already ruled on that. The hon. Member is in order not to.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by saying that I feel sad that this symposium called upon by the hon. Minister tomorrow, has been referred to as a voluntary one although this is a very important matter which all of us should have been compelled to attend. I hope, therefore, that all my colleagues, at least, those on the left, will find time, tomorrow, to go and interact with the technocrats on this very important matter of climate change.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of naming, I have always been guided and I do not name people who cannot defend themselves. It is only those who do it, but not us.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for this opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. I want to say that I support the allocation to the ministry because it is a strategic and important ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I would like the hon. Minister, today, to bury the issue that has been outstanding since 1997 and this is the issue on the Statutory Instrument (SI) No. 28. We have been promised, on the Floor of this House, that it was going to be revoked and another one issued. However, since 1997, this issue has been outstanding. I would like the hon. Minister to be categorical in stating that the statutory instrument has been signed.

Secondly, I would like to urge the hon. Minister to make sure that Zambia Forests Forestry Industries Corporation (ZAFFICO) starts replanting their plantations because the rate of cutting timber on the Copperbelt is alarming. When you move from Ndola, today, up to Luanshya turn-off, there is only one single forest remaining on the left hand side. If trees are not replanted, we are going to have a thirty year period in which there will be no timber in Zambia and that would mean importing timber from our neighbouring countries. ZAFFICO has to pull up its socks and start replanting all the plantations that have been cut down.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, lastly, we must be very careful about the way we are advised to take care of our environmental issues by the west. If you travel from Portsmouth to Scotland, you will never see a single forest reserve except for Clint Eastwood near Sheffield, but, here, in Zambia, today, we are refusing to demarcate land for agriculture purposes at the expense of our people. A good example is the forest which has now become a Multi-facility Economic Zone (MFEZ) in Chambeshi. Indigenous Zambians applied to have that land as a farming block, but the Government refused to give it to them.

There is another forest in Luanshya, Maposa Zone B, that people are crying to have demarcated for agricultural purposes. While all this is happening, the Government is saying it wants to diversify to agriculture. I want to urge the hon. Minister to, please, think about the people of Maposa in my constituency by de-gazetting that land for agricultural purposes.

With these words, Sir, I thank you.

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, let me first start by thanking the hon. Members for supporting our ministerial vote and then  comment on a few issues raised.

Hon. Kasongo talked about the need for us to take charge in terms of ownership and reduce the indiscriminate cutting of trees by strengthening the capacity of our forestry department. I agree with him and in my statement, indicated that the Government intends to strengthen the forestry department so that it can go back to the days when it used to have, as Hon. Guy Scott says, the Kapenda mabulas. So, I take note of that.

Mr Chairperson, let me now look at the issue of animal-human conflicts. Yes, it is important to sort out that problem, but for us to start cropping there is need for us to carry out surveys so that we can estimate the population of animals in any given area, especially the crocodiles that have been referred to.

Mr Chairperson, there is a perception that the Government values animals more than humans. It is unfortunate that people think that way because the animals in this country belong to the people of Zambia collectively and, therefore, there is no way that the Government can value animals more than its people.

Hon. Katele Kalumba, whom we all refer to as Kaka fondly, did acknowledge the need for hon. Members of Parliament to drive the process of tree planting and he also noted, with gratitude, the composition of a team of eminent persons by the President. Yes, indeed, there is need for us, as hon. Members of Parliament, in our respective constituencies to provide leadership. Nobody can do it better than ourselves. We need to talk to our people about the need to develop the culture of planting trees.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Katele Kalumba talked about the beautiful Nyika and Liuwa national parks. Indeed, the two parks are wonderful and I am sure Hon. Kalumba will be happy to note that the Government of Zambia and Malawi intend to manage Nyika National Park jointly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: So, currently, we are discussing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) so that we can jointly look after that wonderful national park.

Dr Scott always starts with some negatives and he is talked about the need also for collective local leadership in controlling the harvesting of forestry products. I also note that he was almost praising the colonial administration for doing what they did. I have difficulties with that …

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Ms Namugala: … because, at the end of the day, Zambia belongs to the Zambian people and we fought hard in order to manage our affairs.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Granted, along the way we will make mistakes, but we need to take ownership of those mistakes. We need to run our own affairs. Never again will Zambia be colonised whether directly or indirectly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, Hon. Chongo from Mwense is happy with the development of the Northern Circuit in tourism that is concerned with the management of the forestry resources. I agree with what he said. I want to assure him that, as a  Government, we are extremely concerned and working very hard to ensure that we put a law in place that will ensure that there are penalties for the indiscriminate cutting down of trees. He referred to Government assurances that have been made in the past about activating the Forestry Act. I want to assure him that we will activate the Act before we can bring amendments to it in this House. The issues he referred to, of course, of coming up with a commission are still relevant even today. We do not have the resources to come up with a commission and what we think is that we need to strengthen the forestry department so that we can have forest guards in each forest reserve.

My young brother, Hon. Solomon Musonda, has bemoaned ZAWA’s excessive use of force. I note that issue hon. Member of Parliament and I will certainly look into the matter.

Regarding the issue of climate change, Hon. Lubinda, you are welcome on board. I am glad that you are feeling as strongly as we are feeling about the fact that Africa has contributed very little to the problem of climate change, and yet Africa is ultimately going to pay the price of climate change. We have contributed, just to put this argument into context, less than 3 per cent of the green house gas emissions, and yet as Africa we bear the brunt of this problem. When we go to Copenhagen, we are asking for a fair deal. I mentioned in my statement, a few days ago, that we are not asking for a loan, but a fund in addition to the official development aid to deal with the issue of climate change and for us, as a Government, the focus is adaptation and not so much mitigation. So, I agree with you, hon. Lubinda. The reason we, as a Government, are going to Copenhagen is to deal with the weaknesses that were in the Kiyoto Protocol and we are very hopeful that the world leaders will come to the table and pay the price that is required.

Now, you have raised the issue of forests No. 26 and 27 and seemed to insinuate that the Government has given these forestry reserves to foreign investors.

Mr Chairperson, Forest No. 26 is what we are turning into Lusaka Park. The Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources intends to open a national park here in Lusaka so that visitors who come to Zambia can go to view wildlife and this park is in Forest No. 26.

There is also the MFEZ programme for this country …

Mr Lubinda: For Malaysians.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Ms Namugala: … to develop economically. If we take the route of questioning who will develop in the MFEZs, we are not going to head anywhere. As a country, we have recognised the need for foreign direct investment (FDI). We are creating space for investors to come and contribute to the economic growth of this country. Therefore, I do not see anything wrong with this.

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Kambwili talked about the repealing of an SI so as to put another in place. I think he was talking about Regulation No. 24 of the Environmental Council of Zambia Act.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Ms Namugala: Hon. Members will be very happy to learn that I have since signed an SI to repeal Regulation No. 24 …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: … of SI 28.

Mr Chairperson, with these comments, I thank you very much.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 68/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Vote 68/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 68/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 68/06 ─ (Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources ─ Environment and Natural Resources Department ─ K215,888,767,185).

The Deputy Chairperson: I have observed that Hon. Lubinda is standing up and I want to believe that he wants to ask a question, but Hon. Kambwili is engaging him, so that is confusing me. If that confusion persists, I will move on.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, I seek clarification on page 640, Programme 10. I will give time to the hon. Minister to find the page.

The Deputy Chairperson: She is following.

Mr Lubinda: She is flipping her pages, Sir. Unit 3, Programme 10, Activity ─ 08, and I hope she is there …

The Deputy Chairperson: Continue please. Let us not do that. Just continue asking your question as she is following.

Mr Lubinda: … Youth Environmental Management and Education Project (YEMEP)(13) ─ K1,050,000,000. Can I find out what is involved in this activity and how the youths can access this amount of K1 billion that has been allocated so that they can be encouraged to participate in this very important project.

Ms Namugala: Mr Chairperson, under the Environment and Natural Resources Department, we have a fund just like we have under the forestry for the community to access. In this activity, we are trying to build capacity in the youths so that they understand and appreciate issues of environmental management.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Vote 68/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76 ─ (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development ─ K31,338,014,299).

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Mr Chipungu): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you most sincerely for according me this opportunity to present …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chipungu: … before this august House a policy statement for the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development in respect of the estimates of revenue and expenditure for 2010.

The mission statement of the ministry is to “effectively promote, co-ordinate and monitor child, youth and sports development and thereby contribute to sustainable social and economic development for the benefit of the people of Zambia.”

The overall goal of the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development is to increase the level of participation by children and the youth in all areas that affect their wellbeing and livelihood and to enhance observance and protection of their rights in order to create a good human resource base that will facilitate and participate in wealth creation and socially optical investments …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think hon. Members on my left should consult quietly.

Continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Chipungu: … for sustainable national development.

Mr Chairperson, in order to achieve this noble goal, the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development’s aim is to ensure that matters of children and youths are prioritised on the nation’s developmental agenda by working closely with other Government institutions, non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and co-operating partners such as the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), International Labour Organisation (ILO), United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), Commonwealth Youth Programme (CYP) and Reaching HIV/AIDS Affected People through Integrated Development and Support (RAPIDS).

Mr Chairperson, my ministry undertook a number of programmes in 2009. Please, allow me to highlight some of the major achievements. In the area of sports development, new members of the board to the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ) were appointed. The new board will not only improve the administration of sports in this country, but will also enhance the participation of Zambians in various sporting activities of their choice.

Furthermore, Cabinet approved the proposed amendments to the National Sports Council of Zambia Act of 1977.

The ministry has since submitted the amended Bill to the Ministry of Justice. The amendments will bring the Bill in line with new developments in the economic, political and social developments, which have occurred since 1977 in order to improve sports administration and development in the country.

Mr Chairperson, another significant milestone during the year was the appointment of the new members of the Professional Boxing and Control Board. The objective, again, was to stimulate the development of the sector. I have no doubt that the new board will work tirelessly in order to reinvigorate professional boxing to the levels of the old days of the likes of the late Lottie Mwale, Chisanda Mutti, Charm Shuffle Chiteule and many other great boxers of our times who brought honour, glory and fame to this nation.

In the same vein, Cabinet approved amendments to the Professional Wrestling Control Act, Cap. 156 of the Laws of Zambia of 1977. The proposed Bill is with the Ministry of Justice. The amended Bills will be presented to this august House. We look forward to working together in order to improve sports development in this country as we all have a national duty regardless of our political affiliations.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of sports infrastructure development, I am glad to announce that a sports development centre is being constructed in Lusaka, next to the Independence Stadium in conjunction with the International Olympic Committee at a cost of US$12.5 million. The impact of the project will be an improvement in the standards of sports in the country. It will also enhance our capability to host major international tournaments.

Sports Studies

Mr Chairperson, in the areas of skills development, my ministry, in conjunction with other stakeholders, came up with sports programme at the University of Zambia in the School of Education. We hope that through this programme, a number of our sportsmen and women will acquire academic qualifications which, in turn, will lead to an improvement in the standards of various sports disciplines and associations and, thereby, contribute to the development of sports in Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, we will continue to collaborate very closely with the Ministry of Education in the promotion and development of sports in schools for the benefit of our young men and women and the nation as a whole.

Mr Chairperson, in the area of child development, the ministry also made remarkable progress. Under the programme of rehabilitation and reintegration of street children and other vulnerable children, 461 vulnerable young persons drawn from all provinces of Zambia are currently undertaking training in various survival skills, including psychosocial counselling at two youth skills training centres at Kitwe and Chiwoko Zambia National Service Camps. Out of this number, 156 are females and 315 are males. I am also happy to announce that during the year, Cabinet approved the establishment of the Zambia Council for the Child Bill. This Bill is with the Ministry of Justice. The proposed legislation will bring about effective co-ordination of the activities of various organisations dealing with children and youth development. The ministry continued with infrastructure development and K455 million was disbursed to ten youth resource centres for rehabilitation and construction purposes.

In the 2010 Budget, K3.3 billion has been allocated for the purpose of constructing youth resource centres. We expect that at the end of 2010, the total number of youth resource centres will increase from the current sixteen to twenty-six.

Appointment of the Youth Council Board

Another major development under youths was the appointment of eminent persons to head the board of the National Youth Council. This board is in place now.

Lastly, in the 2009 Budget, there was no provision for the Constituency Youth Empowerment Fund. I am pleased to announce that in the 2010 Budget, K5 billion has been allocated for the Constituency Youth Empowerment Fund.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: This money will go towards viable projects in order to promote the spirit of entrepreneurship among the youths.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson this fund will go a long way to alleviate poverty and its offshoots among the youths. My ministry will work very closely with all the stakeholders in this regard.

In conclusion, the ministry managed to successfully implement its major programmes in 2009 and will continue with the same spirit in the next financial year. The impact of our policies and programmes on society is evidently significant and can, therefore, not be overemphasised.

Mr Chairperson, we have a responsibility on our shoulders to shape the future of our children and the youths in this country who are the majority of the population, the future workforce and leaders of this great nation.

It is with this in mind that, I wish to sincerely request this august House to support the estimates of revenue and expenditure for my ministry in 2010.

Mr Chairperson, I am most grateful and I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya (Mpika Central): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for allowing me to contribute to the debate on the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. I will centre my debate on the number one sport in Zambia, and this is soccer.

Mr Chairperson, our biggest worry is the falling standards of soccer. Nearly all soccer fans in this country are worried about the falling standards of soccer. Sir, allow me, also, to admit that I used to be a soccer fan in this country from the 1960s until the early 1990s, but due to the falling standards, I am no longer a soccer fan.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, what has contributed to the falling standards of soccer in this country? The immediate response one might arrive at is that of both coaching and the administration of soccer in this country. Administration is related to the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ). What has happened to FAZ in this country? A few weeks ago, some of us who watch television saw some players and a good number of soccer fans complaining about the falling standards of soccer in this country. They complained of hand picking the coach. Today, we are told that FAZ has banned any soccer fan from talking about the administration of soccer in this country. Sir, where is the freedom of speech?

The Government, between 2002 and 2008, funded FAZ K9 billion. Despite providing it with this money, there have not been any good results seen. Yet, this money could have been used on building clinics and schools in this country. When we spend on things such as this, we need...

Mr Kambwili: Honours.

Mr Kapeya: Honours, of course. Thank you, Hon. Kambwili.

Mr Chairperson, we are disappointed with the way soccer is being run in this country. I think the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development should summon FAZ administration and the National Sports Council of Zambia for a discussion. If soccer has to be promoted in this country, this is the right time the hon. Minister has to take action.

Mr Chairperson, if we have failed to run soccer, we can branch into other sporting disciplines such as, for example, boxing. There is a lot of talent in boxing. We have Ms Esther Phiri and Mr Chingangu. I am sure these can bring honours to this country. In fact, I would like to thank National Milling Company of Lusaka for supporting boxing. I urge the Government to find a way of promoting other sporting activities.

Mr Chairperson, this House has on several occasions urged the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to tap talent from rural areas in as far as soccer is concerned. If the hon. Minister visits Luapula and Northern provinces, he will find that there is a lot of talent. There are football clubs such as Chontamalinga, Samfya Rockets, Kakombo in Mpika...

Mr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: … and Chilonga United.

Mr Malama: Hear, hear!

Mr Kapeya: You will be impressed.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member for Mfuwe, Mr Malama, must support the hon. Member on the Floor properly.

The hon. Member for Mpika Central may continue.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, I request the Government to go to the rural areas and tap soccer talent in this country.

The other issue is about playing fields. They need to be upgraded. During the United National Independence Party (UNIP) days, each provincial centre had a football field, but it is a different story today because most of them have not been maintained. I urge the hon. Minister to look seriously into this matter and make sure that soccer fields are upgraded. I promised that I would be brief...

The Deputy Chairperson: Mrs Musokotwane...

Mr Kapeya: I have not ended. What is your problem?


The Deputy Chairperson: I thought you had ended because you promised to be brief.

Mr Kapeya: No, by ending, I will say thank you.


The Deputy Chairperson: Mrs Musokotwane.

Mr Kapeya: Mr Chairperson, lastly, the World Cup will be held in the southern part of Africa. Is Zambia participating in any way? I know that some games will be played in West Africa and Rwanda, but not a single game will be played in Zambia and yet we are close to South Africa. It is shameful.

Thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the vote on the Floor of the House. I want to support the vote, especially now that I know...


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mrs Musokotwane: ... we have K5 billion which has been provided for the youths. We really have to support this. I wish the hon. Minister came with the guidelines today because the youths were going to start applying tomorrow. I congratulate the hon. Minister for this because we have been asking for this fund for the last two years.

Let me commend the ministry and the Government for establishing the Simango Youth Resource Centre. I hope this will be opened in January although I am not happy with the workmanship of the buildings. The people building this centre should be seriously supervised because they are not doing a good job.

Mr Chairperson, the other point is about customary law in this country. How does it affect the youth, especially the young girls? We have a law which is silent and nobody seems to care about it. We have been given excuses because traditions differ from chiefdom to chiefdom and the Government cannot do anything about it. I believe the Government can do something about it, especially through the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. If this law, where girls are married...


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is a lot of noise coming from behind the hon. Member on the Floor. She cannot concentrate and I cannot hear. Give her time to debate, please.

The hon. Member for Katombola may continue.

Mrs Musokotwane: It is under this law where girls are married under age to men who are supposed to be their fathers and grandfathers. They are usually married under polygamy and because of this, there is no surety of them inheriting anything if this old man died. Immediately one becomes a widow, unfortunately, she is married again to another old man who is a relative of the deceased and, again, goes through the same process. I urge the ministry to look into this issue. What do we do about this customary law so that girls are not married under age? I think a solution should be found because they are just used as economic tools. They go to the fields to cultivate for the old men. The ministry has a challenge over this issue. In fact, it is through this customary law that we have initiation ceremonies.

Mr Chairperson, yesterday when we debated the report of your Committee, we heard that the completion rate for girls is very low. The retention is not even there. One of the reasons was the issue of initiation ceremonies.

Girls undergo initiation in their early teenage years when they are nowhere near the age of marriage. We need to come up with legislation that will only allow for the initiation ceremonies to carried out when girls attain the age of eighteen years and above because according to our laws, the girls are adults by that age.
When girls as young as thirteen undergo the initiation ceremony, they are taught things they are not supposed to know at such an age. As a result, men assume that the girls are ready for marriage and pick them at a tender age. Traditionally, they are ready for marriage at thirteen, provided they have gone through initiation. This is a responsibility as it is a challenge for the ministry. What are we going to do about it?

Mr Chairperson, other consequences of initiation ceremonies are early marriages and early pregnancies. This causes a lot of our girls to drop out of school and thus their poor retention in schools. This is another challenge to the ministry. We have to do something about that.

Sir, the hon. Minister mentioned a resource center where there were 156 girls and 315 boys. That is not good. We need to retain girls in youth resource centres. The percentage of boys and girls in schools and resource centres is supposed to be 50/50. However, we cannot achieve this equality because of the problems that we are talking about.

Mr Chairperson, we need to look at why girls are not interested in participating in programmes at youth centres. For example, what are the programmes offered? Why are girls dropping out? This is something we can look at and see if there are any particular programmes that we can create for girls alone so that they are retained in training centres.

Sir, there is some fund in the Yellow Book, though not enough, for helping those that graduate.

Mr Chairperson, we need to inculcate a culture of hard work in our boys and girls as they undergo training at the centres. At the moment, we have a lot of young people who want to earn a living through begging. If a young person comes to me to beg for money, I always offer a job at my place before I can give any money. I have experienced a lot of these young people turn and walk away at hearing that they have to work for the money. Our youth now have adopted a culture of begging and asking for donations. The same applies to the youth in our churches. Reverend Shikapwasha will bail me out.


Mrs Musokotwane: The youth in the church always beg from the pastors and the congregation when they have programmes instead of asking for any member of the congregation who can give them some work to do before they can get paid. All they do is ask for donations.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Musokotwane: We need to inculcate, in our youth, a culture of not just work, but hard work.

Hon. Member: She is speaking well.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Member: Continue!

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Chairperson, I will try to be brief.

Firstly, I would like to state that sport is very important in any environment. I think that if sport is invested into, it would be a big source of revenue. Other countries raise a lot of money because they have invested in sport. They have invested in infrastructure which is able to give them the results.

However, in Zambia, we have not done much with regard to investment into sport. It is important that the ministry ensures that there is investment in sport and sports infrastructure. Yes, we appreciate that there is some investment going into the Dag Hammarskjöld   Stadium in Ndola.

Hon. Opposition Member: Dag Hammarskjöld?

Mr Mukanga: Yes, there was some investment into that stadium which saw it to foundation level. I come from the Copperbelt and know what I am talking about. It is important that that investment does not just remain at foundation level. You need to go further and invest in the superstructure. I would like to see results on the Copperbelt in as far as the Dg Hammarskjöld Stadium in Ndola is concerned.

Mr Chairperson, it is also important that the stadium being built in Ndola’s Hillcrest area is finished in good time so that sport returns to the Copperbelt.

Mr Chairperson, if we do not invest in sport, we will not see any progress. We will talk about soccer and other sport, but we are not going see the results.

Sir, I come from the Copperbelt and can see that there has been a big change from the old days when we used to watch football.  In those days, we would have a lot of soccer stars from the Copperbelt joining the national team, but not any more. No wonder the national soccer team has been performing badly.

Mr Chairperson, the administration of soccer in Zambia is a source of serious concern to the people of the Copperbelt. You have to look at the way soccer is being administered. I think your concern, hon. Minister, is everybody’s concern.

Sir, if the coach cannot perform, do not keep him. Fire him. We want to see good results. We are tired of coming second best. We are tired of qualifying just by chance. We do not want to qualify in that manner. We want to qualify knowing that we are able to perform. We are a sporting nation with skill.

We want to see proper results from our games. What has happened to this country? Now, we are even challenged by the teams we used to defeat easily. When we play Zimbabwe, now, we are worried of being defeated. It is important that we look at these issues seriously. We should get annoyed when we see things like that happening. Why should we be spending billions of kwacha for people to use to experiment? I think that the Football Association of Zambia (FAZ) Executive should be addressed. If they cannot perform, they should go. We do not want to keep a board which is not performing.

People on the Copperbelt are so worried that they do not want to talk about football. If they have to talk about football, they would rather it is about the Manchester or Liverpool football clubs of England and not our own local teams. Why? This should come to a stop. We want to support our local teams because we are Zambians. I support Mufulira Wanderers and I want to see good results from them. However, with the current performance, I think, we cannot blame the Zambians for failing to support their local teams.

As a Government, we have a duty to ensure that something happens to the way soccer is being administered in this country. I think it is important that the players that we have are nurtured to an extent where they are able to perform at all levels.

 In the old days, we used to have Zambia Schools Competition. We used to have soccer starting from nursery school. We used to have soccer competitions take place during independence as part of the celebrations where schools and communities would compete. It is important that we go back to those days and ensure that the Ministry of Education also participates in the development of sport.

Having said that, let me also add that football is not the only sport in Zambia and, therefore, we should identify other skills that our people have. As we try to identify skills, let us not forget the people with disabilities.

The Paralympics will take place in 2012. Let us ensure that we come up with a team that will represent Zambia and give us the results that we need. Other countries are doing it, why can we not do the same. It is really important that we fund sport in this manner.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the child in Zambia, the Ministry of Sport Youth and Child Development is best placed to fight child defilement and molestation. It is important that this ministry …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours

the Chair]

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that there is a need for this ministry to work in collaboration with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services to fight child molestation and defilement.

Sir, as we went for break, I was reminded by the electorate that I should talk more on FAZ.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, that is why I will continue talking about FAZ because they said we cannot have a board in the country which is untouchable.

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: They reminded me that FAZ organised a friendly match against the Ghanaian National Team in England and took part of our national team, but when they went there, they included students in the team to represent us. These students had never trained with the National Team. They used spectators to represent Zambia. Worse still, they wore different jerseys with different numbers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: What type of image were they portraying for us? Why should we have a board like this in this country? The entire FAZ should step down. We want to see progress in this country. They should take a leaf from what happened to the Parliamentarians when they played against the diplomats. They brought the trophy in this House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Therefore, it is important that we correct things like that so that we make progress.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that when we look at issues of this nature, we take them seriously. I was also reminded that when we were talking about Dag Hammerskjoeld Stadium, we said that the foundations were laid at the Dag Hammerskjoeld site. It is very disappointing to be reminded that the site I was talking about was offered to an investor by the council of Ndola. We are asking the Ndola City Council to reverse that decision because we have invested a lot in that site, as country. It is taxpayers’ money that is being used. Therefore, it is important that when we invest, we do not give out our investment on a silver platter.

Sir, I was also reminded about the major reason that has caused sport to go down on the Copperbelt. It is because the investors who are operating mining houses have not been investing in sport. Do you expect a team which is given US$5,000 to perform well? It cannot perform well. That is why teams such as Mufulira Wanderers, Roan United and Nkana Red Devils are not performing as well as they used to. Their performance is a result of personal effort and even their stadiums have not been rehabilitated.

Mr Chairperson, we need soccer players who have a fighting spirit in this country. The players of the Godfery Ucar Chitalu’s time did not get any money to write home about, but they went into the stadium and ensured that they won the game. They fought and even if there were 10 seconds remaining, you would hear Dennis Liwewe commenting that they had scored.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: That is what we want. Today, soccer players, first hold you to ransom. They demand that you give them money if you want them to play. We want that fighting spirit we had in those days to come back. We want players to be patriotic so that when they go to the pitch, they win games because if we do not do that, we will not go anywhere.

Sir, sport in Zambia needs to be revamped. Soccer, in Zambia, needs to be changed. I pity the hard working hon. Minister because he is surrounded by a crop of people who are responsible for looking at soccer, but are not interested in it.

It is important that we create some interest in soccer because football is a unifying factor in Zambia. I would like to tell you what happens on the mines when we win a game. If we win a soccer game, production on the mines increases, but when we lose, production decreases. This translates into loss of revenue.


Mr Mukanga: You lose a lot of revenue in as far as production is concerned when you lose a game. It is very important that we invest and administer soccer properly so that we our financial statements be better ant the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) will improve.

Mr Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Now, I would like to talk about youth unemployment.

Hon. Government Members: Has it got anything to do with GDP?

Mr Mukanga: Yes, youth unemployment has to do with GDP, but what is important is that the skills training centres have already been created and some funding has been thereto attached. However, what it is important is special funding to enable youths who graduate to set up ventures or companies to employ other youths. At the moment, people do not go on retirement. When they retire, they are given contracts. Where are our youths going to find employment? When youths leave skills training centres, they need to be empowered to set up companies and ventures that will enable them to empower other youths because the unemployment rate in this country is very high. If we empower the youths after training them, it will be very easy for us to reduce the unemployment levels in the country.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: I would like to have two serious debaters, but I want them to do it in 10 minutes to allow others to speak.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor of this august House.

Sir, to begin with, I stand here to support the vote on the Floor of the House in totality. I will be brief in my contribution because a lot of points have already been brought out.

Mr Chairperson, we are all aware that Zambia, as a nation, is healthy because of the importance that we attach to the sporting activities. However, of late, we have observed that our soccer standards in this country have been going down because of inadequate funding.

Secondly, the soccer houses are not provided with equipment. Thirdly, there is lack of commitment by the State to the development of soccer and some other sporting activities. One wonders when the sporting activities in this country will be improved. This lack of funding has greatly affected the soccer sporting activity in our country.

Sir, the other observation over the same is that, year in, year out, we have observed that FAZ and the NSCZ that have been mandated to run the sporting activities, attach very little importance to the running of this sport in the country. As a result, even our coach who has been given the task of coaching the Zambia National Soccer Team has been performing below par.

Therefore, one wonders who has been given the task of selecting the players. At times, we are told that it is the responsibility of a coach. Others say that it is the responsibility of FAZ. As a result, we get conflicting statements. We have observed that there is too much corruption involved in the selection of players, mostly by some FAZ officials.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chisala: This is one issue the hon. Minister should look into seriously because it has been killing soccer standards in this country.

Sir, it has been further observed that the old system which FAZ used to apply in the selection of players has been abandoned. I recall, during the 70s, 80s and 90s, when T. Mtine, Julius Sakala and Musa Kasonka were at the helm of FAZ, they used to see to it that players were picked on merit. Today, what is happening is a different story. If we are to pick players, why can we not do as we used to in the past? This issue should be looked into very seriously. That is why you find that when players go outside the country, their performance is below a par. Therefore, if this issue is not going to be taken into consideration, our country’s soccer standards will continue falling every year. 

Sir, if I may recall, in 1993, the players who were going to perform in West Africa were given a plane which was faulty and they perished. That is when the standards of soccer started to fall in this country. The players who perished were the most talented players and from that time, Zambia has never had any talented player. What I am trying to say is that whenever players are going out for sporting activities, we have to ensure that we give them a plane which is in a good condition. We do not want that to happen again in the future.

Mr Chairperson, with these words, I thank you.{mospagebreak}

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Chairperson, I almost gave up my intention to speak. I have noticed that the national disease is really spreading to this ministry. The disease I am talking about is that we become sensational on one issue and forget about the others. I think this is a basic problem both at the political and ministerial level. This is the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development. I salute my colleagues for a wonderful debate because it was only based on sport. The issues of youth and child development have been put on the back seat and I think that is wrong. In these three areas, the issue of youth and child development is more important than sport. This ministry has been reduced to the Zambia national soccer team. Even sport in general is now just the national team. It is not a holistic approach. That is the problem with our national team. Therefore, the hon. Minister must shake off that Zambian disease. One day, we will even forget that there are other children in our homes and just argue with a few people. By the time you will realise the problem, the other children would have been dead.

We must know that all issues require equal attention. We need a balanced and logical emphasis and this ministry must come to terms with the three departments it comprises. I am happy that the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development was rebranded in 1991 when the MMD came into power. They thought it necessary to emphasise the issues of youth and child development. Before, it was basically youth and sport.

Mr Chairperson, at the advent of capitalist policies by the MMD Government, a lot of side effects had begun to manifest. In most sports disciplines, parastatal companies had a very strong corporate social responsibility of taking care of the youth. With the private companies now coming on board, their sole interest is profit. Corporate social responsibility is not there at all. There is a need for this ministry to become even more relevant in this era.

Mr Chairperson, I want to specifically look at issues concerning the youth because sport has already been dealt with by most colleagues. As someone who has just graduated from being a youth, at forty-one years, I am very keen on issues concerning the youth. I think that they bear the biggest brunt of the kind of set up we have now. At the moment, we have the highest rate of unemployment ever recorded in history. This ministry must, therefore, come in and address the side effects of this problem. The emphasis must be on youth and child development. After all, the youth are the leaders of tomorrow. They are the foundation. In building a house, more attention should be paid to the foundation and footing. If you put more attention on other areas, the house will crack, no matter how beautiful it is.

Mr Chairperson, this ministry must look at the issues concerning the youth and child very seriously and holistically. We want the hon. Minister to bring more ministerial statements, looking at how they are addressing the challenges facing the youths to this House. We want to see these departments getting the due attention. We can have wonderful soccer, but if we lose our youth, then we lose our country. On the other hand, we can lose soccer, but if we have our youth, we still have our country. Therefore, let us emphasise on issues concerning young people.

There was a very good scheme by the UNIP Government. I did not think that it was right to remove this Government and I want to state that I did not vote for the MMD.


Mr Hamududu: My conscious is very clear, although, I think that we are also reactionary.


Mr Mwaanga indicated assent. 

Mr Hamududu: Thank you, Hon. VJ. 

Mr Chairperson, there were schemes at Kanakantapa and Kambilimbilo where unemployed youth went to work.


Hon. UPND Member interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Of course, there are allegations that they ran away but, perhaps, at the time, it made sense to run away. I do not think that this time around, they can run away because they are feeling it. They would actually value such schemes. We need serious schemes in the hinterland and farms. The youth roaming the streets in town will appreciate such schemes. If you take time to walk in the streets, you will see a lot of youths who are depressed. In some countries, they call this street madness.

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Hamududu: Maybe you might be suffering from it. 


Hon. MMD Member: Who?

Mr Hamududu: The one heckling.

Hon. UPND Member: Hammer Hamududu!

Mr Hamududu: Street madness is walking around not knowing what to do or where your next meal will come from or how you will pay your rentals. Even when there is an on-coming vehicle, you cannot see it and may even end up walking into it. This could come to this country. Therefore, we need to address these issues.

Sir, we have a lot of land in this country. We should begin developing serious youth schemes. Some youths who are interested can go to these schemes. This is a new programme. In Namibia, they have begun the National Youth Service and it is working very well. Youths are being taken to work in the National Youth Service and they are producing a lot of crops like tomatoes, cabbages and others. Therefore, they can supply shops like Shoprite who are saying that we do not have enough vegetables around. Let us provide meaningful employment for these youths. Otherwise, we will have a very serious problem in our towns with crime and illicit sex.

Sir, I went for a programme somewhere I will not mention.  When I got there, there were youths standing in a queue. I was very shocked to see that all the girls aged between sixteen and twenty-two years old had babies in their hands. Basically, 75 per cent of these girls had babies, and yet were not married. This is what is happening in our country, especially in the rural areas.

Mr Malwa: In Bweengwa.

Mr Hamududu: In your constituency, Kapiri Mposhi.


Mr Hamududu: Mr Chairperson, this is a very serious issue. Therefore, the ministry must undertake studies to know the gravity of such problems. 75 per cent of the girls in rural areas have babies. There are implications such as children being raised in irresponsible families and also the youths being exposed to HIV and AIDS. The fight against HIV and AIDS is not yet won in this country. If the youths can have babies, what does that tell us? It means that they have had a lot of unprotected sex for them to reach the stage of having babies. That is what it means. We need to protect our young people. The girl child needs double protection in this country because she is becoming an endangered specie.

 Mrs Musokotwane: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu: Someone was telling me that a girl child can be enticed by a vanilla biscuit…

 Mrs Musokotwane: You see!

Mr Hamududu:…and even be made to bear a child. This is very serious.

The Government …


Everywhere, including Sinjembela …


Mr Hamududu: … Mr Chairperson, in Sinjembela Constituency, there are many girl children who have babies. Therefore, we need special interventions by the ministry. Your ministry must work closely with other ministries so that other ministries can also address the issues of youths and children very seriously. This is a time bomb.

Mr Malwa: In Bweengwa.

Mr Hamududu: Yes, including Bweengwa and Kapiri Mposhi Constituency where I saw a lot of young girls with babies.

Sir, because the youths are not empowered, they are now exposed to being busy bodies. Being a busy body means that you have nothing constructive to do and can do literarally anything. Sugar daddies are now preying on these helpless young people. Young men and sugar daddies are preying on them because they do not have the means to survive. Therefore, we need to protect the girl children and empower them. All ministries like the one responsible fore education should give a double portion to the girl child because she is an endangered specie in our country.

With these few words, I thank you, Sir.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Mr Chairperson, Bembas say imiti ikula empaga.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: This means that the small trees of…


Mr Ngoma:…of today are the forests of tomorrow.

Mr Chairperson, in Zambia, it is imiti ikula eyobaleochela amalasha.


Mr Ngoma: This means that at the end of the day, we might not end up having a forest or the kind of leadership we need in this country.

Mr Chairperson, I want to commend the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development for having realised that there was need to bring back the Youth Constituency Development Fund. That is a correct move it undertook. Therefore, it needs to be commended for that.

I made a quick calculation and this translates to K33 million per constituency.

  That money should not be distributed just like that because it belongs to the youth in this country. It should go to various constituencies so that each and every constituency in this country benefits. If we leave it at the headquarters its distribution might end up being influenced by politics as it had been some time back.

Mr Nsanda: Ifwe twalechita shani!


Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, today, when I go into town, I am at pains when I see the number of young people that have gone back to the streets. When the former hon. Minister of Community Development and Social Services and the former hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development started that very good exercise of taking the street kids to Zambia National Service camps, it almost eliminated the problem. However, this evil is coming back into our society. I wish to urge the Government to address this problem. There are no two ways about it. The Government should address the problem of street kids on our streets.

Sir, I am mindful of the fact that my colleague, the last debater, mentioned that youth development is very important and so we should not talk too much about soccer. As far as the development of football in this country is concerned, my heart bleeds when I see the standards taking a nose dive. The problem is very clear and visible. I do not know why the ministry is so scared to face that problem head on. I do not know what the hon. Minister is scared of. When we talk about football in Zambia, we are talking principally about FAZ.

I would like to join hon. Mukanga in saying that the current FAZ executive and its leadership have failed this country. They came on the platform with a theme, “Eyes on the Ball,” but what is happening now? Eyes are no longer on the ball.

Mr Chazangwe: The money!

Mr Ngoma: Their eyes are somewhere else, probably, because of the FIFA regulations.
Sir, the Government seems to be scared to do anything about the problem. As much as other sports are important in this country, soccer is the major sport. Talk about countries like Brazil. It does not mean that in Brazil there are no other sports, but you find that because of the unifying factor that soccer has in that country, it is given the due attention it is supposed to be given. However, here, in our country, you leave a few cracker jacks to mismanage the whole arrangement.

The Deputy Chairperson: What are cracker jacks? I am not sure whether that is parliamentary or not.


Mr Ngoma: Sorry, Mr Chairperson. You allow a few individuals to control football in a remote way. You cannot have football being controlled from another country. Even when somebody is gallivanting to and from, you keep your hands akimbo.

Mr D. Mwila: Kalusha Bwalya!

Mr Ngoma: A serious government should not allow that.


Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, whilst talking about the same issue, I am mindful of what happened to the Zambia National Soccer Team in the London fiasco. It was a shameful thing. At that time, our Committtee on Sport, Youth and Child Development was somewhere in the North-Western Province in the bush and it was very difficult to get the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) signal. The only signal we could get was Supper Sport. The South African Super Sport channel was talking about that London fiasco close to a month. The response from the hon. Minister was very encouraging. Quickly the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development, Hon. Chipungu, moved in to say that, “This is very bad. K300 million was used and we want things to be sorted out.”

What have they done about that problem? We hear people saying it was a problem of visas. Surely, you send people to play soccer in a foreign country and then they get to include students putting on t-shirts with number six written on them while the short has number three written on it. Do you also require visas for jerseys?

Mrs Musokotwane: To collect jerseys!

Mr Ngoma: To get jerseys into London, do you also require visas? Something has gone amiss. The Government needs to address this problem.

Mr Malama: Eyes are on the ball.

Mr Ngoma: Eyes are not on the ball, but on the chilingalinga.


Mr Ngoma: For the first time, probably, in the history of the country, we have seen a lot of corporate responsibility and goodwill even from the Head of State. A lot of money is being raised towards the preparation of the Zambia National Football Team to qualify for the Africa Cup and the World Cup, but the results we are getting are very shameful and so I urge the hon. Minister to look at that seriously.

Sir, I now want to talk about infrastructure. I hear there is a game to be played at the Independence Stadium in a few days time and you want to put up a tent to cushion the razed grandstand. I would like to say that all those things are demeaning to the country and so it is high time you addressed the issue of sports infrastructure. When you take a tour across the provincial centres of this country, you will discover that the entire provincial stadium is in a state of disrepair, and yet at one time, there were colossal sums of money released for these to be rehabilitated, but that has not been done. On this one, again, I would like the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to do something about it.

I am mindful of the fact that the Deputy Chairperson has said we should not   debate for a long time but the issue of soccer is so important that you cannot expect us to keep quiet about it because it is a major sport in this country. So, wake up from your slumber and address this situation. If the FAZ issue is causing the country to be moving around in circles, let it go. That is the message.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Do not be scared and if you are, call us so that we help you to let it go because it has mismanaged the team. Being a good player and a good administrator are two different things altogether. These are the things we need to address.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: I thank you, Sir, although I may have been emotional, but it is a very important thing we must look at as far as the administration of football in this country is concerned.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I now call upon the hon. Minister to wind up debate.

Hon. PF Members: Aaah!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Unfortunately, not all of you can speak. The problem is that some hon. Members indicate to speak as an after thought.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to begin by thanking you for giving me an opportunity to respond to some pertinent issues raised by hon. Members who contributed to the debate on this Vote.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank them for the passion they have for sport and in the operations of my ministry in particular. Let me assure the hon. Members that we have taken note of all your conerns. I am very happy that we have the Chairperson of the National Sports Council of Zambia seated in this august House.

The other day, you may remember when I debated on this Floor, indicating how sport is run in this country. Hon. Members of Parliament, I want to emphasise the point, once again, that my ministry is responsible for policy issues and guidance while the actual running of sports in this country is the responsibility of the NSCZ. So, I am very confident that Hon. Chifumu Banda, SC., has taken note of whatever has been raised on the Floor of this House. Maybe, I could respond to a few issues here.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

There is disorder. What is happening at the back?

Mr Mwenya: Chimbaka!

Mr Chipungu: Hon. Mwansa Kapeya, thank you very much, my brother. I think you are very correct that this time around, the Government fully supported the national team. In 2008, when we came into office, our mandate was to look for money for the national team. I am glad that through his efforts, His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, raised a substantial amount of money and this went to the national team whose performance we all know. It is not correct that the standards of soccer are failing. If anything, the standards have gone high. You can see the ….

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I think the problem with our national team is that they fail to score, …


Mr Chipungu: … but generally, the standard of playing has certainly improved.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Mr Chipungu: However, to address the concerns that hon. Members are still questioning here, we shall hold a meeting on Monday next week ...

Hon. Opposition Members: With hon. Members of Parliament.

Mr Chipungu: … involving the NSCZ, ministry officials, FAZ, other stakeholders and, indeed, some hon. Members of Parliament.


Mr Chipungu: Hon. Musokotwane, I toured or, rather, we toured the Simango Youth Resource Centre and I am not too sure how the situation is right now, but we shall be able to monitor it through the provincial administration there.

On the issue of the customary law and what should be done over the early marriages, I am glad that the hon. Member is the Vice-Chairperson of the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). I think it is just important that, maybe, we take this issue to the NCC.

Thank you, Hon. Mukanga, for what you have said on the Paralympics. I want to assure you that we are supporting the Paralympics Committee and they have participated in Commonwealth and Olympic Games. It is only tomorrow that the leader of this association will be travelling to Malaysia for a World Conference. They are not left behind.

Mr Kambwili: Dag Hammarskjöeld!

Mr Chipungu:  Hon. Hamududu, I agree with you with regard to the unemployment situation in the country. It is very bad, but let me refer to what we are doing, in particular, through the youth resources centres. Hon. Members of Parliament, the skills that we impart to our children or to the youths in the resource centres are meant to give them the know-how to either create their own business or get employed. I must assure you, hon. Members, that some of them that graduate from these resources centres get employed and others create their own employment.

I wish to refer hon. Members that would want to see how a resource centre is actually run to Samfya Youth Resource Centre or Kalingalinga Youth Resource Centre just behind the ZNBC Mass Media Complex.


Mr Chipungu: Whichever of the two is a very good example of a skills centre. Hon. Members of the House are free to drop-in there and take stock of what is happening. Otherwise, we are worried with the influx of children back onto the streets. On the other hand, the bottom line is that these children are coming from our homes, whether we like it or not. Maybe hon. Members of Parliament can help us do something about it. Who knows, maybe, Hon. Kambwili some of these children are from your home.

Mr Kambwili: Question!


Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.


VOTE 76/01 ─ (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development ─ Headquarters ─ K8,265,026,070).
Mr Kambwili: Sir, we are all aware that the stadia being contracted are under a loan from the Chinese Government. May I find from the hon. Minister on page 645, Programme 12, Activity 10 ─ Provision of Services to Stadia under Construction ─ K200,000,000, why there is a provision …

The Deputy Chairperson: On page 645? We are not yet there.

Mr Kambwili: Sorry, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, may I have clarification on Unit 2, Programme 10, Activity 05 ─ Launch of the 2010-2014 Strategic Plan ─ K55,254,858. Can I find which strategic plan this is and when it was developed.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Dr Kalila): Mr Chairperson, this is an overall strategic plan which the ministry has just finished developing and intends to launch it in the first quarter of next year.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 76/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/02 ─ (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development ─ Sports Department ─ K6,000,905,593).

Dr Machungwa: Mr Chairperson, may I have an explanation on Programme 11, Activity 09 ─ 2010 World Cup ─ K50,000,000. Is this allocation just for officials to go and watch the World Cup because we have been eliminated from participating in the tournament? What is this K50 million for?

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for that observation. This K50 million has been provided for the purpose of ministry officials attending this important World Cup, which will be hosted in Africa for the first time.


Dr Kalila:  We want to draw some lessons from it so that, in future, if we intend to host big events such as this, we would have learnt something.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Kambwili: Sir, I seek clarification on page 645. Like I previously said, the stadia under contraction are under a loan …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)




(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 19th November, 2009.