Debates- Thursday, 19th November, 2009

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Thursday, 19th November, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours






Madam Deputy Speaker: I wish to inform the House that I have authorised a half-day workshop on Private Member’s Bills for all hon. Members of Parliament on Monday, 23rd November, 2009, starting at 08:30 hours in the auditorium here at the Parliament Buildings.

The objective of the workshop is to sensitise hon. Members of Parliament on initiation and tabling of Private Member’s Bills. This is under the auspices of the Parliamentary Reforms Programme (PRP). I urge all hon. Members to attend this important workshop.

 The workshop programme will be circulated to all hon. Members through their pigeon holes.

I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!




199. Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

            (a)            what progress had been made in the exercise of prospecting for oil in   
                             Luapula Province; and

             (b)           which districts in the province were earmarked for oil prospecting.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, a reconnaissance microbial prospecting for oil and gas survey was conducted in Luapula Province by the Geological Survey Department. The results for some of the areas were positive for oil only and these areas have been demarcated into blocks. They will be advertised in the next bidding round by the end of this year and will close mid 2010.

Mr Speaker, the districts in the Luapula Province earmarked for oil prospecting in the next bidding round are Kaputa, Samfya and Kawambwa.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwansa: Madam Speaker, among the districts that have been earmarked, can the hon. Minister tell us which ones look most promising?

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Madam Speaker, I know that the hon. Member is very anxious about the discovery of oil, particularly in his district.

Mr Mwansa indicated assent.

 Mr M. B. Mwale: However, I would like to advise that we leave it to the technical people to carry out their work and report back to us.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, it was reported in today’s paper that seven companies had been given prospecting licences for oil. Can the hon. Minister tell us which companies these are?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, I may not have all the facts about the companies that have bid for oil, but I can inform the hon. Member that British, Canadian and local companies have bid for petroleum exploration.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Speaker, a large area of Kaputa comprises national parks. To this effect, the eco-system of wildlife will be affected if oil is found in that area. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister what position his ministry will take on that situation.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, it is up to the hon. Member to tell whether he can compare the economic benefits from wildlife to that which can accrue from petroleum exploration. Guided by this Government, the people of Kaputa will determine this for themselves.

I thank you, Madam Speaker,

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, could I learn from the hon. Minister if these companies which have been given the rights to explore will be responsible for production?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, the question we have relates to exploration of oil in Luapula and it does not fall in the category which we talked about yesterday. However, for the benefit of the hon. Member, since the companies that will be exploring may have to sink wells which may lead to production, they may have the privilege to progress to development and production of petroleum.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, in answering part (b) of the question, the hon. Minister indicated that Samfya is one of the districts where some positive findings for oil have been obtained. Can he confirm that, in fact, Lake Bangweulu and the entire Bangweulu swamps are actually sitting on oil?


Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, in our response, we said there have been some indicative signs. This does not mean petroleum has been found.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!


200. Mr Kakusa (Kabwe Central) asked the Minister of Health when an Intensive Care Unit (ICU) would be built at Kabwe General Hospital.

The Deputy Minister of Health (Mr Akakandelwa): Madam Speaker, my ministry is committed to establishing Intensive Care Units in all major hospitals in the country. To this effect, a study was carried out by my ministry in 2007 to assess the requirements for ICUs. The ministry is currently scouting for funds to implement the recommendations of the study.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Chitonge (Mwansabombwe): Madam Speaker, can the hon. Minister indicate what alternative is being applied by the Kabwe General Hospital in cases that need intensive care services?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, all our hospitals are equipped with the right personnel to attend to emergency cases of that nature.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Speaker, the hon. Minister said that there were personnel who are able to attend to intensive cares cases in the absence of facilities. How are they managing this?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, we all know that there are only two ICUs in Zambia. How have doctors been managing to handle these cases? The same people are fairly trained to handle these cases and this is the right answer.

Madam Speaker, I thank you.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out how much money will be required to construct an Intensive Care Unit in Kabwe?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, the estimated cost for an ICU in Kabwe is K1 billion.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that he is misleading the House by stating that the there are two ICUs in the country and yet all former ZCCM hospitals have got ICUs? Where are you getting your information from?

Mr Akakandelwa: Madam Speaker, before I came to the House, I researched the answer to that question. I was told that there are only two hospitals with ICUs and these are University Teaching Hospital (UTH) and the Ndola General Hospital. If there are other hospitals with ICUs apart from these two which I have mentioned, probably the ICUs at those hospitals are not in use.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.


201. Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

(a) what the progress there was on the investigations in the case of the victims of the Chambishi shooting incident by the Chinese investor during the workers demonstration at the Non-Ferrous Metal Corporation;

(b) what immediate assistance, if any, was rendered to the victims;

(c) whether the victims had been compensated and, if so, how much money was paid out as compensation; and

(d) what action the Government took against the company and the culprit in the incident above.

The Deputy Minister of Home Affairs (Mr D. Phiri): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform the House that the 2006 shooting of two victims investigations have been concluded. The investigations were completed and the matter was taken before the Director of Public Prosecutions who directed that the docket be closed for lack of evidence as the Chinese official fired in self-defence as irate rock-carrying miners attacked a Chinese compound. The victims of the shooting were among the group that went to destroy property and thereby put the lives of the Chinese in danger.

The wounded victims were rushed to ZhinoZam, a hospital which belongs to the Chinese. They were treated and later discharged. The victims have not been compensated yet, but they have sued the Chinese company and the matter will come up for continued hearing on 9th December, 2009.

Madam Speaker, the company has continued to operate normally. The alleged act was done in self-defence by the Chinese community against the riotous workers. Hence, no action has been taken against the company.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether carrying a weapon or a firearm to working premises by managers is permissible.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Madam Speaker, the carrying of firearms is not allowed, but what happened here is that workers became riotous and wanted to go to the administration block, but they found that the place was sealed by the police. Therefore, they decided to go to the workers’ compound where the Chinese were staying and started stoning the area. Therefore, in self-defence, one of the Chinese nationals decided to shoot at one of them. This is exactly what happened.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, the law guiding ownership of firearms states that one has to fire warning shots in the air. In this care, the Chinese did not fire any warning shots, but immediately fired at the crowd. Why is it that no action has been taken by the Government when the law was broken?

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, first of all, I should thank Hon. Kambwili because I have read in today’s Times of Zambia that he has acknowledged the importance of the Chinese investment in this country and that in one way or another he is ...

Mr Kambwili: On a point of order, Madam.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! I have not given the Floor to the hon. Member for Roan. Normally, we do not allow points of order on the hon. Minister when he is responding to your own question. Therefore, let him finish.

May to the hon. Minister continue.

Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, in other words, I am saying that Hon. Kambwili has started to appreciate what the investors are doing because if the investors are not doing much, we will not have the opportunity to sell Maheu to some of these companies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


Mr Mangani: Madam Speaker, we should not allow the workers to be politically motivated like in this particular case where workers were politically motivated. One Opposition Leader is on record as having declared that he had incited that incident to happen. Doing that causes danger to the lives and property of the investors.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mangani: Therefore, we need to be very careful when we are dealing with issues, particularly of people who bring money into this country.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!


202. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing what measures the Government had taken to ensure good management and maintenance of graveyards countrywide.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Madam Speaker, I wish to inform this House that the Government has taken the following measures to ensure good management and maintenance of graveyards countrywide:

(i) my ministry has been encouraging local authorities to partner with the private sector on the maintenance of cemeteries in a bid to improve the welfare of mourners;

(ii) my ministry has directed councils to employ permanent workers as grave diggers to ensure high quality graves are dug; and

(iii) all councils have been directed to erect mourners’ shelters at graveyards and to clean and plant flowers at cemeteries to make them look pleasant.

Madam Speaker, finally, the Government has started releasing funds to councils for the maintenance of graveyards and, for a start, K300 million has been disbursed to the Lusaka City Council in 2008 to upgrade cemeteries in Lusaka. This grant will be extended to other councils in future.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Malama: Madam Speaker, some councils are unable to raise money to erect shelters in cemeteries. May I find out whether the ministry has plans to fund some councils so that they can construct shelters at cemeteries.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the ministry has been releasing funds to each constituency in the form of Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Already, there is K600 million which is being released to constituencies. Therefore, if the hon. Member considers this as a priority, he will find it necessary that some funds are allocated for the construction of shelters at the graveyards.

 I thank you, Madam Speaker.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order! It is important that opportunity is given to questions and responses. We will not have a situation where running commentaries become the order of the day. You have the right to rise to your feet and ask a question, but do not make running commentaries because it is very difficult to follow and co-ordinate the thought of people giving responses and those who are asking.

 Mrs Phiri (Munali): I would like to find out from he hon. Minister if his ministry is co-ordinating with councils when these funds are being released because I remember in Lusaka, some money was released for the Ngwerere Cemetery, and yet we, as councillors, are aware that this cemetery is full. Are they releasing these monies in collaboration with the councils that are on the ground? 

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the hon. Member who has asked the question is a councillor. When we release these funds, we ensure that at an appropriate time, we make a follow up to see to it that the funds are used appropriately. Since the hon. Member is in contact on an everyday basis with the councils we are releasing the funds to, she is in a better position to monitor how the funds are utilised.

I thank you, Madam.

Dr Chishya (Pambashe): Madam Speaker, since the population of Zambia is increasing and the urban areas are expanding at an alarming rate, is the ministry contemplating introducing cremation as a way of reducing the problem of grave space?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, cremation already exists, but the only challenge is that our culture does not seem to promote this method of disposing of bodies. However, I am aware that, in future, as the population expands and we construct houses and buildings everywhere, we shall consider this option.

I thank you, Madam.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Madam Speaker, the ministry has given a lot of directives to councils on management of graveyards. I would like to find out whether there is a monitory mechanism by the ministry to ensure that the directives given are followed by councils.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, we have a system of monitoring, but it is important that councillors, including the hon. Member who has asked the question, are involved in the monitoring to ensure that any funds that we release for this particular purpose are properly utilised.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Madam Speaker, I would like to find out whether the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing is encouraging councils to ensure that when they plan, they consider factors such as population growth and, as such, plan for space where a cemetery can be extended. In Lusaka, the population is growing, but there is nowhere to bury the dead, hence people are now talking about cremation.

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, the answer is yes, we have taken that into consideration but, as the hon. Member is aware, as the population grows, we find that even areas that seemed to be further away from residential areas get closer. Eventually, we have had situations where cemeteries are closed and new ones opened because, as the population expands, areas where there are cemeteries become prime land.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Speaker, we have now seen a phenomenon where construction is taking place along graveyards. What is the policy of the ministry with regard to whether buildings can be erected on an old graveyard? How many years should it take before people begin to build on graves?


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

The Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives (Livestock and Fisheries) (Mr Machila)(on behalf of the Minister of Local Government and Housing): Madam Speaker, the planning authorities are not supposed to allow the construction of properties on what were graves and so we would appreciate more specifics from the hon. Member.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, it is believed that the Parliament Buildings were constructed on a graveyard and that is where it derives the name Manda Hill. Can the hon. Minister confirm if we are sitting on graves?

Dr Puma: Madam Speaker, I would request the hon. Member to ask that as a new question so that we can research for an appropriate answer.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.


203. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Mines and Minerals Development:

(a) what the total financial loss following the closure of the Nchanga Smelter after it was gutted by fire in April, 2008 was; and

(b) what preventive measures had been put in place to avoid recurrence of a similar incident.

The Deputy Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr Nkhata): Madam Speaker, the Nchanga Smelter was not gutted by fire in April, 2008. However, there was a breach in the refractory lining of the furnace, resulting in the matte and slag flowing out from the flash-smelting furnace. The damage caused to the ancillary equipment by the molten material was minimal. The furnace was temporarily switched off to facilitate repair works of the refractory lining, pending securing of new refractory bricks from the manufacturers.

Madam Speaker, the total loss was US$25 million and comprised US$5 million in repairs and US$20 in production loss.

Madam Speaker, the preventive measures that have been put in place to avoid a recurrence of the incident are:

(i) inspection of the integrity of the entire brick-wall lining of the furnace was and remedial work where some shortcomings were observed was conducted;

(ii) intensification of computerised monitoring of the temperature of the furnace wall for early detection of hot spots before brick-wall failure can occur;

(iii) use of higher quality refractory bricks to replace worn out ones;

(iv) institution of stringent control of furnace operations; and

(v) intensification of training of furnace operatives.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Mwango: Madam Speaker, I would like to find out if the smelter has been insured.

The Minister of Mines and Minerals Development (Mr M. B. Mwale): Madam Speaker, I cannot give a definite answer, but since this is a very big company in business, all the necessary measures have been taken.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Madam Speaker, could the hon. Minister confirm that the normal way of setting up production plants is that the smelters have excess capacity compared to concentrators that feed them. If that is the case, could he confirm that this figure of US$20 million production loss is fictitious because when the plant or smelter comes back on line, it can actually consume the excess production?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, it is a known fact in business that when you have a downturn, it means you have a loss, therefore, Nchanga Copper Mine incurred a loss.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Madam Speaker, these incidences of fires and downturns have continued at that smelter. Can the hon. Minister confirm that the measures put in place are not yielding fruit?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, it has been indicated in the response to the question that the brick-wall lining was replaced and I would like to confirm that the company has embarked on securing more heat-resistant bricks from the same source so that we can minimise the downturns.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kambwili: Madam Speaker, in time of the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mine (ZCCM), smelters were only closed for annual maintenance once in a year. Can the hon. Minister confirm that there was an act of bad workmanship when they were reconstructing this smelter which led to three closures as a result of fires and breakdowns?

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, it is understandable that follow-up question has come from Hon. Kambwili since he does not understand what is involved in commissioning a plant.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members and Ministers on my right, respond to the question as much as you can.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

You may continue, please.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Thank you, Madam Speaker, this is a new technology which has been imported into our country. We have not had such kind of a smelter before and management is doing everything possible to ensure that we minimise the recurrence of such incidences.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): Madam Speaker, as a matter of interest, may I know the company supplying the bricks to Konkola Copper Mine Plc.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Madam Speaker, the bricks are sourced from Australia and the company is RHI.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.




Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Madam Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the First Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 13th November, 2009.

Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Silavwe (Nakonde): Madam Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Speaker, in total, your Committee considered fifty-five statutory instruments. Some statutory instruments were not considered, even though they were on the programme, because some had been overtaken by events. Examples include Statutory Instrument No. 66 of 2008, the Tender (Amendment) Regulations 2008, whose principal Act has since been repealed.

Madam Speaker, your Committee considered Statutory Instrument No. 120 of 2008, the Local Government (Election of Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Chairman and Vice-Chairman) postponement order 2008, and were informed that the instrument was issued to postpone the elections of mayors and their deputies, the Chairmen and their Vice-Chairmen countrywide. This was made to enable the councils to quickly adopt and approve their budgets for the 2009 civic year and, subsequently, enable the ministry to approve them.

Your Committee observe that the Ministry of Local Government and Housing has no powers to postpone the election of mayors, deputy mayors, chairmen and vice-chairmen. In this regard, the issuance of Statutory Instrument No. 120 of 2008 was ultra vires the Local Government Act, which provides, in Section 16(2), that the said elections be held after 1st September of each year, but within the same year.

Madam Speaker, by way of explanation, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing stated that Statutory Instrument No. 120 of 2008 was issued for two reasons, namely:

(i) in September, 2008, it was difficult to hold mayoral elections due to the State funeral for the late President, Levy Mwanawasa, SC.; and

(ii) there were presidential elections.

Your Committee were informed that the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing was challenged in the courts of law by an Opposition Party which resulted in an ex curia settlement leading to the statutory instrument being withdrawn.

Though the ministry conceded that the law was straightforward and admitted to the wrong doing and assured your Committee that by September, 2008, new elections would be held as per provisions of the law. Your Committee wish to express their concern at this trend by the Executive.

In this regard, your Committee have in mind the issue of the Environment Protection and Pollution Control (Environmental Assessment) Regulation Statutory Instrument No. 28 of 1997, which your previous Committee had found ultra vires several years ago. To date the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources has not revoked the said statutory instrument.

Your Committee wish to urge the Executive to take the recommendations of the House seriously in order to promote good governance. Failure to revoke statutory instruments that are ultra vires the enabling legislation is a sad indictment on the Executive.

Madam Speaker, your Committee is equally concerned that the laws passed should be implemented to meet the objectives for which they are made and that resources should be employed to pass laws that are practical and add value to the wellbeing of the Zambians.

In this regard, your Committee undertook tours of various places related to statutory instruments that were under consideration.


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Hon. Members, I wonder whether the House is listening and it is not easy even to follow because everybody seems to be busy. Can we listen to the Chairperson’s comments?

Mr C. B. K. Banda, SC.: Your Committee wanted to know whether in fact these statutory instruments meet the objectives for which they were issued.

Madam Speaker, your Committee’s tour was to see the implementation of some of the following pieces of legislation:

(i) Statutory instrument No. 11 of 2008 – The Customs and Excise (General) (Amendment) Regulation, 2008;

(ii) Statutory Instrument No. 26 of 2009 – The value Added tax (Zero Rating) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009; and

(iii) Statutory Instrument No. 83 of 2007 – The Market and Bus Stations Act (Commencement Order), 2007.

Your Committee are happy to report that Statutory Instrument No. 11 of 2008 is serving the objectives for which it was passed, as the automated system for customs data (Ascuda) has and continues to add value to revenue collection.

The same cannot be said of Statutory Instrument No. 26 of 2009, the Value Added Tax (Zero rating) Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009 which was issued to zero rate tractors up to ninety horse power. This was meant to reduce input costs and enable farmers to expand production to make farming a viable sector.

Your Committee learnt that this objective had completely failed as the beneficiaries of this facility were foreigners, who had the financial resources to import as well as the work contracts in which the machinery could be used.

In this regard, your Committee wish to urge the Government to do a due diligence before passing laws that end up enriching other nationals.

Your Committee note that while the idea is commendable, not enough has been done to ensure that the intended outcome is achieved.

As regards Statutory Instrument No. 83 of 2007, the Market and Bus Stations Act (Commencement Order), 2007, your Committee wanted to ascertain that the market stalls were given to indigenous Zambians as per the requirement of the law.

Your Committee are happy to report that the Maramba Market in Livingstone is occupied by indigenous Zambians.

Your Committee cannot say the same about the Town Centre Market in Lusaka which, they learnt, is a joint venture between the Lusaka City Council and a private developer.

Madam Speaker, the middle part of the market, which belongs to the council, has stalls allocated to Zambians while the perimeter shops belong to the developer who is at liberty to allocate to whoever he wishes.

Your Committee observe that the stands in the perimeter are part of the market and that the law was meant to empower Zambians. In this regard, they recommend that the Government compel the private developer to allocate stands to Zambians in compliance with the law.

Madam Speaker, your Committee also undertook familiarisation tours of the Ministry of Justice and the Government Printing Department in order to acquaint themselves with the process of the preparation of statutory instruments (SIs). Your Committee recommend that each new Committee on Delegated Legislation should be familiarised with the process of passing SIs.

Madam Speaker, in conclusion, your Committee would like to express their appreciation to you for the wise counsel and direction that you gave to them during the past year. Your Committee also wish to thank all the witnesses who submitted memoranda to them for providing the basis on which they could make informed decisions on the issues before them. Lastly, your Committee wish to express their appreciation for the services rendered by the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly throughout their deliberations.

Madam Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!


Madam Deputy Speaker: Order!

Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Silavwe: Now, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker, since the Chairperson has ably highlighted all the pertinent issues covered by your Committee’s report, I will be very brief.

Madam Speaker, your Committee has the capacity to do more work than it has done in the period under consideration. However, they were constrained by the Executive’s inability or unwillingness to send the necessary supporting memoranda in order to allow your Committee to consider all SIs issued within the year. This is disappointing, considering that all ministries have the Office of Parliament Liaison Officer whose job should include the generation of memoranda to support SIs from a particular ministry. In this regard, it is your Committee’s hope that this state of affairs will change.

Madam Speaker, your Committee are concerned that there seems to be lack of due diligence and consultation within the Executive in the issuance of some SIs. I have in mind SI No. 64 of 2008 of the Immigration and Deportation (Amendment) Regulations 2008, which was quickly superseded by SI No. 104 of 2008 of the Immigration and Deportation (Amendment) Regulations 2008. The Ministry of Home Affairs increased visa fees, just to have the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources complain that this had affected tourist arrivals leading to the review of SI No. 64. It is a waste of resources when laws are made and remade within an unreasonably short space of time. Additionally, it defeats the principle that the law should be predictable.

Madam Speaker, your Committee are of the view that the SI No. 26 of 2009 of the Value Added Tax (Zero rating) (Amendment) (No. 2) Order 2009, which was issued to zero rate tractors up to ninety horsepower was made in good faith and should be extended. The only issue is that the Government needs to check on who is being empowered by this law and whether, indeed, it had positively impacted on the agricultural sector as was envisaged. In this regard, the Government may consider various options such as the diplomatic model whereby a truck can be on a red book for five years and cannot be sold in that period. This would curb the current trend where importation of tractors is followed by immediate resale. Other options include employing similar principles with the ones used a few years ago on the importation of minibuses.

Madam Speaker, in urging this House to support your Committee’s findings, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Madam Speaker, I must state that I stand to support the report of your Committee and in doing so, I would like to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion for ably doing so.

Madam Speaker, I wish to state that I was an hon. Member of this Committee last year and I was privy to all the proceedings and discussions in this Committee. One thing that we found out is that SIs are brought to the Committee very late. Some SIs that we were considering were issued two years before. For instance, there was a recommendation from the Committee that SI No. 28 of 1997 should be revoked. I am glad to say that yesterday the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources said that the SI has now finally been repealed. However, why should it take almost four years to implement a recommendation of your Committee? This shows that the Government is not taking the work of Parliament seriously.

I would like to urge the hon. Minister-in-charge to make sure that the SIs that are issued are immediately released for scrutiny by this Committee and the Government to take the recommendations made by the Committee seriously. Almost three to four Action-Taken-reports showed that the SI-in-question had been signed by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, and yet every time we called witnesses, they said that the SI was not signed.

Madam Speaker, I would like to be very brief and therefore, with these few words, I would like to support the Committee’s report and thank you.

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to make some remarks on the report that has been presented. I would like to make a comment on the issue that has been raised stating that the removal of VAT on tractors has benefited foreigners and not the local people. I wish to disagree very strongly with that assertion.

Prior to the action we took on the VAT for tractors, commercial farmers who are VAT-registered claimed VAT refunds from the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA) each time they bought a tractor. In other words, they paid VAT which was later refunded. It did not matter the size of the tractor, they always went to collect a refund on the VAT. Now, most of the small-scale farmers that the Committee seems to be suggesting have not benefited tend not to be VAT-registered and therefore, they were not able to benefit similarly. In other words, they could not go to ZRA and claim back the VAT and hence, suffered under that kind of arrangement.

The import of the decisions that we made on VAT was to remove it on all tractors up to ninety horsepower. This means that even if a small-scale farmer is not VAT registered, that farmer will not be charged any VAT at all. Therefore, from the action that we took, our small-scale farmers are now on equal status with commercial farmers because they are now able to buy a tractor and other farm implements without paying any VAT. This is beneficial to our people.

Madam, I am extremely puzzled about the logic that seems to be presented here that the action that the Government took is benefiting the foreigners and so forth. To the contrary, I suspect that the people who were writing this report did not understand what they were doing. I wish they had come to ask for clarifications because we would have clarified issues for them. As I have indicated, what we did is beneficial to our people because at the moment, whether they are registered for VAT or not, they can buy tractors without paying VAT.

Madam, I thought I should clarify this error of understanding and judgment that the report writers made.

I thank you, Madam.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Madam Speaker, I also wish to make some few observations on this report. Regarding Statutory Instrument No. 28 of 1997, indeed, the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources conceded that a statutory instrument has been issued to correct provisions that were ultra vires. She did concede and I have seen that Statutory Instrument No. 28 of 1997 have been revoked. We removed the provisions that were ultra vires. These are provisions which allowed for appeals to the Minister on decisions of the Environmental Council of Zambia.

Madam Speaker, I have approved the draft statutory instrument, which I believe has since been signed. The way we handled this matter was that I appeared before the committee then as the then Minister of Justice and Attorney-General. As Attorney-General, I could give a conclusive and authoritative legal opinion on behalf of the Government. I would suggest that, in future, on matters where there is controversy on the interpretation of a particular SI, the Attorney-General should be consulted. This Committee has seen that there are times when they have raised very controversial and complex legal issues and the Committee will purport to sit as a court and come up with a position of law which is very controversial and debatable. It is advisable that the Attorney-General who defends the Government is asked to give a position instead of them reaching conclusions on points of law which may be erroneous.

The other point is on the postponement of mayoral elections. This, again, was a matter which was very controversial and raised novel points of law. It had to go to court. However, in the interest of harmony in the nation, we decided to reach an amicable settlement. Of course, we could have pursued this matter up to the Supreme Court, but in the interest of resolving this matter, we decided to settle it. It has been conceded of course by the ministry that the statutory instrument was erroneously issued and we will leave it like that.

Those are the points that I wanted to make and I also would like to state that the constructive issues raised by the Chairperson of the Committee have been taken note of, but I hope that, in future, we can seek the input of the Attorney-General.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Madam Speaker, in response, I would like to state that Statutory Instrument No. 28 of 1997 was first raised by the Committee on Delegated Legislation in 1999 under the Chairmanship of Dr Machungwa. Even as early as that time, the Attorney-General was summoned to appear before that Committee. After the subsequent Action-Taken-Report, officials from the Attorney-General’s Chambers were again, summoned. This continued until the last Action-Taken-Report. The position of the State was that it was going to do the needful by revoking the SI. Your Committee has merely reproduced the responses given in the Action-Taken-reports.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: In addition to that and more especially with the response given by the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, I would like to submit that your Committee undertook tours of points of entry where evidence was received from witnesses working for the Zambia Revenue Authority (ZRA). Therefore what is in the report is from the ZRA officers who report to your ministry. We have, therefore, not exaggerated anything and it is not our duty to do that. Our duty is to report as we find the evidence on the ground.

May I perhaps, end my contribution by thanking those hon. Members of the House who have supported your report. I wish to thank you and recommend that we adopt the report.

I beg to sit, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!




VOTE 76/02 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Sports Department – K6,000,905,593).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Chairperson, when business was adjourned yesterday, I was asking a point of clarification on Vote 76/02 – Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Sports Department – K6,000,905,593, page 645, Programme 12, Activity 10 – Provision of Services to Stadia under Construction – K200,000,000. Which stadia are going to be provided with this money because I believe the stadium that is being built in Ndola is a US$65 loan from the Chinese Government?

Secondly, what is this revolving fund in the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development on page 646, Vote 72/03, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Revolving Fund – K4,700,000,000 and Activity 02 – Administration Costs – K300,000,000? I have observed that the revolving funds in other ministries are just about K400 million.

The Deputy Chairperson: On what page is this?

Mr Kambwili: Sir, this is on page 646, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Revolving Fund – K4,700,000,000 and Activity 02 – Administration Costs – K300,000,000.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Dr Kalila): Mr Chairperson, before I answer that question, I want to state that we have not yet gone to the page 646 that he has mentioned. However, I will ...

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! In that case, do not proceed if he asked on an activity we have not gone to. We will come to it later.

You may continue.

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, with regard to the first question on page 645, Programme 12, Activity 10 – Provision of Services to Stadia under Construction – K200,000,000, firstly, I would like to state that, indeed, we are indebted to the Chinese Government for the support they are providing in building the stadium, but that does not mean that we cannot spend a small amount of money to facilitate their work. This provision is for services such as electricity, water, telecommunications and sewerage facilities in order to ensure the work is as smooth as possible for them.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 644, Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 04 – Provincial, District and Sector Sports Festivals – K200,000,000. We know what provincial and district festivals are. Can the hon. Minister explain to the House what they are referring to as Sector Sports Festivals? How will Parliamentarians encourage their constituents to benefit from the allocation of K200 million for sports festivals as sectors?

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Member has noticed, we used to previously mobilise communities in sports by way of the Sports For All programmes. We have changed this year and instead we will organise sports festivals at the provincial, district, ward and sector levels in which we hope the Parliamentarians such as the hon. Member for Kabwata can participate and benefit therefrom.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 645, Programme 11, Activity 06 – Support to Senior National Football Team – K500,000,000. They budgeted for K907 million in 2009 and the ministry is now proposing K500 million for 2010. Why is there a reduction when the national team is going to the Africa Cup of Nations?

Dr Kalila: Mr Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for Chipili for raising that very simple question in the sense that it is self-explanatory. Sir, Programme 11, Activity 06 – Support to Senior National Football Team – K500,000,000, this is money that has been budgeted for the purposes of facilitating our senior national team participating in the Africa Cup Qualifiers which will start next year for the 2010 Africa Cup of Nations. The reason there has been a reduction is that the amount of money allocated previously was for both the World Cup as well as Africa Cup of Nations qualifiers. Secondly, there is a reduction obviously due to budgetary constraints.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 76/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/03 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Youth Affairs Department – K12,143,953,167).

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 648, Programme 10, Activity 11 – Construction of Kazungula Youth Resource Centre – Kazungula District – K300,000,000. Why has the ministry provided K300 million yet there is a lot of work to be done? May I also have clarification on Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 08 – Monitoring of Youth Programmes & Projects – K48,000,000. How is the ministry going to manage because they have many projects to monitor?

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Ms Cifire): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 10, Activity 11 – Construction of Kazungula Youth Resource Centre – Kazungula District - K300,000,000, obviously it is a question of funds. Since the work is ongoing, we have made provision to create continuity.

With regard to the second question, Unit 3, Programme 8, Activity 08 – Monitoring of Youth Programmes & Projects – K48,000,000, the constraint of funds has made it impossible to make a full allocation, but the provision has been provided for the works to continue.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, what is this revolving fund on page 646, Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Revolving Fund – K4,700,000,000?

Ms Cifire: Mr Chairperson, regarding Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Revolving Fund – K4,700,000,000, I think for sometime, now, after the withdrawal of the Constituency Youth Development Fund, hon. Members have been complaining about the withdrawal of this much-needed fund. We have recreated this fund and the starting figure is K4.7 billion with the first K300 million given to the construction of Kazungula Youth Resource Centre in Kazungula District giving a total of K5 billion. This was previously a grant, but it will now be in the form of loans so that we create responsibility on the part of the youths when they get it, hence it being a revolving fund so that as they pay it back, and we have more money to disburse.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 3, Activity 18 – SOS Children’s Village – K26,400,000. The SOS Children’s Village has more than one village. Is this money for all the villages?

Vote 76/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 76/02 – (Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development – Child Affairs Department  –  31,338,014,299).

Ms Cifire: Mr Chairperson, we do not give money to all the SOS Children’s Villages. Some of them are self-sustaining. The one we have provided for is the village in Mongu. However, we do assist when requested by the others, as and when we are able to.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 10, Activity 02 – Establishment of the Child Council – K200,000,000. Last year, we provided K30,598,000 whereas this year, we have provided K200,000,000. I would like to know whether the council will have full-time staff that will draw salaries from this vote.

Ms Cifire: Mr Chairperson, for some time now, we have awaited the establishment of the Child Council. This increase is intended to make it operational. It has not been operational and we need this kind of money to make it operational.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 76/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 87 – (Anti-Corruption Commission – K33,737,275,657).

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I rise to present the Estimates of Expenditure for the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) for 2010.

Mr Chairperson, the Government of the Republic of Zambia recognises the fact that the fight against corruption requires collective effort and, above all, political will and commitment.

Corruption or allegations of corruption at any level of Government can portray a bad picture on our Public Service. Its insidious nature and damaging effect on the welfare of our nation and our people demand an all-embracing strategy to effectively deal with it.

The work of the ACC has now, more than ever before, become very crucial as a result of the increasing and pervasive abuse of entrusted power and resources for private gain or unjustified purposes.

There are many instances that reflect corruption or lack of good governance. These include the lack of …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

 This is how we run into problems. When a policy debate is being made, others are also debating. When the debate is ended, you begin to ask questions which should not have been asked in the first place, all because you were not listening.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that there are many instances that reflect corruption or the lack of good governance. These include the lack of accountability, values, ethics and transparency. The above reflections on corruption tend to drain resources which are needed for investment in various sectors of our society and other basic services.

 Corruption and all related crimes should, therefore, not be tolerated. Zambia needs concerted efforts in tackling this vice so that our people are not left to wallow in poverty as a result of pure greed and selfishness which may be exhibited by some public officials entrusted with resources for the benefit of the people of Zambia.

Mr Chairperson, in a bid to extend the mechanisms of fighting corruption in Zambia, His Excellency the President of the Republic of Zambia, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, on August 27th 2009, launched the long-awaited National Anti-Corruption Policy. Through this policy, it is envisaged that concerted institutional, society and legal interventions which reduce opportunities for corruption will be developed and harmonised in both the public and private sectors.

His Excellency, the President, also indicated the Government’s continued commitment to deal with the scourge head on and that the Government will continue to embrace the principle of zero tolerance to corruption pronounced in 2002, albeit with renewed vigour.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: As a result of its mandate, the National Anti-Corruption Policy has placed the ACC as the lead institution in the implementation of the policy.

In order to meet the demands of the implementation process of the National Anti-Corruption Policy, the Government has, to this effect, approved a new organisational structure for the commission to enable it increase its staff establishment and decentralise its operations in the provinces where it currently operates with minimum staff levels.

Mr Chairperson, in 2009, the commission made significant progress and achievements in its work. It established an additional five Integrity Committees to lead anti-corruption activities in the following institutions …

Mr Daka made loud consultations.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Hon. Daka, you cannot consult like that. You know you are disturbing the …

Mr Lubinda: Send him out.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I just want to bring this to his attention. With such disturbance, His Honour the Vice-President cannot read reasonably. He is reading nicely, but you are not listening. Can we give him time to debate? It is not good manners, particularly, for hon. Members on my right to disturb proceedings with loud consultations.

His Honour may continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: The institutions are the Kitwe City Council, Livingstone City Council, the Judiciary, the Road Traffic and Safety Agency and the National Registration, Passport and Citizenship Office. I am glad to mention that so far, the number of Integrity Committees has increased to thirteen from the initial eight pilot ones established in 2007.

Notable work progress by the Integrity Committees has also been made and a number of anti-corruption measures designed in a form of codes of ethics, service charters and work progress re-engineering with technical assistance from the ACC have been put in place.

A number of partnerships were also established with the business sector, through the Zambia Business Forum, and these partnerships have enhanced synergy to prevent the occurrence of corruption in our society and institutions.

Several community awareness programmes were also carried out in partnership with the civil society in a bid to curb the vice and raise accountability in our country.

Enforcement of the anti-corruption legislation also saw a number of high profile cases being investigated and taken before the courts of law.

Mr Chairperson, as a result of the above mentioned programmes and activities that the Government, the commission and other stakeholders have carried out in a bid to curb corruption, there has been a notable improvement in the perception of the levels of corruption in Zambia, hence the international recognition of the country’s efforts in the anti-corruption fight.

Mr Chairperson the operations of the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) for which these estimates are presented are in line with its three statutory functions, namely; investigations and prosecution, corruption prevention and community education, which are implemented in line with the national vision of “A nation and its people that are zero tolerant to corruption” as spelt out in the National Anti-Corruption Policy.

Sir, the major programmes for 2010 include dissemination and implementation of the National Anti-Corruption Policy, corruption prevention interventions, public awareness, legislative reviews, building partnerships with relevant stakeholders, enforcing the anti-corruption legislation and strengthening the institution capacity of the commission to carry out its mandate.

The Government is convinced that with the above mentioned programmes, together with support from all stakeholders and the community at large, corruption can be brought under control.

Mr Chairperson, the budget allocation of the commission for 2010 is K33,737,275,657 unlike the K28,040,345,004 allocated in 2009.

My Government is determined to ensure that the allocation of funds to the commission is increased in order to enhance the fight against corruption.

However, I am thankful to hon. Members of this House who have continued to give support to the anti-corruption crusade and to our co-operating partners for their invaluable material, technical and financial contribution towards this noble cause.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice to the debate on this Vote. From the outset, I would like to state that I will be brief, but I believe that I will touch on some very important aspects which I think will help us, as a House and nation, as we try to eradicate this scourge.

Sir, from the outset, I would like to state that I have been listening to some debates in and outside this House concerning the ACC. As a nation, we have been praising ourselves about doing very fine in the fight against corruption. Actually, we have said that we are doing very well even according to the indices.

Mr Chairperson, I fail to understand why we want to deceive ourselves into believing that we are doing fine when, in actual fact, we are not. When we, as a nation, continue to live in denial, we will not achieve our goal. I would like to refer to the index that was recently published by the Transparency International Zambia (TIZ). The Corruption Perception Index (CPI) was put at three out of ten points.

Sir, that is 30 per cent. I am not sure how this index is arrived at, but with my little knowledge in mathematics, it shows that we improved from 2.8 points. This means that we improved by 0.2 per cent to get to 3 per cent. This was a good improvement which we can praise. However, this brings us to three out of ten which is 30 per cent. By any standard, if one writes an examination and gets 30 per cent, it means that they have failed. This is why I fail to understand why we should stand up and praise ourselves about doing fine when, in the actual sense, we are not.

Sir, what we should do, as a nation, is accept our weaknesses. I have been following some HIV/AIDS counselling and one of the things that people are told when they are being counselled, is to come out of self-denial and accept the status. Once one accepts that then they can take anti-retroviral drugs which will help them. Therefore, as a nation, it will help us if we stop living in self-denial and admit that we are corrupt. From there, we can be strong and strengthen the fight against this scourge. I fail to understand why we continue living in denial.

Sir, we, as a country, were ranked nineteen out of sixty-nine, but we are saying that we are doing fine. I fail to understand this because nineteen out of sixty-nine, for a country that is saying that there should be zero tolerance against corruption, is not acceptable. It is like being in a race and coming out nineteenth out of sixty-nine and then one starts dancing because one thinks they have done well. That is not understandable.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to relate this ranking to another one which is very important. In the mining industry, where I have spent a lot of time, there is a rating we call fatalities. When you are rating yourselves, as an operation, there is what is known as zero tolerance to fatalities. This means that no one should be allowed to die during the operation. I remember we used to have a trophy or a shield for the safest operation. If you go for about 2,000 hours without a fatality, you were given a trophy. This means that you managed to achieve the zero tolerance fatality standards that you set.

Sir, I remember in the days I was in the mining industry, we used to manage several hours fatality free. That was put on record and when compared to other counties, we were able to boast because we managed 2,000 hours without fatalities compared to countries such as Russia and China where there were many fatalities. I would like to say this because the mines in those areas of the world are not safe. They have several fatalities. When we were compared to those counties, we shined. I could proudly say that, yes, we had a zero fatality rate.

Mr Chairperson, countries such as China and Russia, as you may be aware, tried to justify their deaths. In a given year, they may have had twenty deaths, but they would say it was alright because it was not so bad. I used to condemn them even at that time. How can you say twenty deaths is not so bad when there is zero tolerance to fatalities?

Sir, that is what we, as a country, are doing with corruption. We have said zero tolerance to corruption, and yet we are ranked nineteen and we are saying it is alright. Therefore, I would like to advise the nation and the Government that the earlier we admit that we are corrupt, the earlier we will make progress and apply the relevant measures to make us first. Once we are the first or second, I will stand on this Floor of the House and say, “Yes, we can praise ourselves because of zero tolerance, we can say we are number one.” The seriousness we apply on zero tolerance to fatalities is the same seriousness that should be applied on corruption.

Mr Chairperson, there are a lot of issues in Zambia that are still unresolved in the line of corruption. The issue of hearses which were allegedly procured dubiously has not been cleared. The issue of inflation of invoices from food suppliers to ministries has not been resolved. The scandal at the Ministry of Health has also not been cleared. Corruption cases have been dropped, but we have not had satisfactory answers, as a nation. The Task Force against Corruption has been disbanded and there are a lot of questions surrounding this issue.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I would like to remind you that reference to issues like that of Mr Kapoko should not be made because the matter is still in court.

The hon. Member may continue, please.


Mr Simuusa: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Sorry, for mentioning that issue.

Sir, there is also the issue of fuel shortages that are ravaging the country presently. There are allegations of impropriety which have not been explained. There was a question that was asked on the Floor of this House about the 25 per cent fuel levy that has been waived. The question was, “Who was benefiting from that 25 per cent fuel levy?” Was it the consumer? To date, we have not had an answer.

Mr Chairperson, with all these questions being asked, one wonders where we are going as a nation. We should be serious and accept that we are corrupt and tackle this issue seriously.

Sir, before I end my debate, I would like to urge the Government and the nation, as a whole, to be serious as we tackle the issue of corruption. We should make our actions speak louder than words. The way we behave and carry ourselves, as a Government, shows that we are not serous. By not answering all these questions and allegations that are being brought up everyday, it shows that we are not ready to fight this corruption scourge.

Mr Chairperson, as a nation, our actions should speak louder than words. I would like to talk about a conference which I recently attended and I just would like to share this with the House as I conclude my debate.

Sir, last week, I was privileged to be part of a team that attended the Third Session of the Conference of State Parties to the United Nations Convention Against Corruption (UNCAC) in Doha. This was a very big meeting. I would like to inform the House, especially those who may not know, that the anti-corruption fight has got a very serious international platform. I saw it at this conference. There were many people who came to represent their nations and made resolutions on how to fight corruption in their respective countries and globally as a whole. This was under the auspices of the UNCAC and sponsored by the Qatar Government in Doha.

Sir, the only thing that disappointed and embarrassed me was that the other countries had very senior Government officials representing them. Countries such as Malawi and Ghana were represented by Foreign Affairs Ministers, Permanent Secretaries and Heads of Departments. The person I sat next to was a head of a very big department and he was representing his country. We did not have any Government officials to represent Zambia. The chair for the Zambian booth was empty and I thought of filling it in. I sat in that chair and when a senior Zimbabwean man asked me which Government ministry I was representing, I nearly sank.


Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I gave him my card and told him that I was just an hon. Member of Parliament. I thereafter, moved out of the chair. I saw how serious that meeting was. It was taken very seriously by other countries. As a Government, we did not send a representative. I would like to say that we should speak …

Mr Chilembo: On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, I rise on a very serous point of order. Is the hon. Member in order to debate in the manner he is, saying that the Government was not present at the conference when they are the ones who complain that we travel a lot? I need your serious ruling.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I think he meant that he would have been happy if his presence had been reinforced by the attendance of other people. I am not sure whether Mr Simuusa was self-sponsored or an international organisation. With regards to the Government’ presence, you should not have been ashamed because you, as an hon. Member of Parliament, are a member of the Government.

Continue, please.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, we were not sponsored by Parliament. We were actually sponsored by the Department of Foreign Investment and Development (DFID). The gallant sons of Zambia that went there were Hon. Chota, Hon. Sikazwe, Hon. Lubinda and I. Hon. Mumbi was a rapporteur. We went as observers and we could not contribute to the resolutions and the issues that were brought up in that conference. This means that, as Zambia, we did not make any input. There were resolutions that were arrived at, which will be circulated. It was one of the recommendations by the Transparency International Zambia (TIZ) that Zambia should domesticate the resolutions of UNCAC. If, as a Government, we are not aware of what is happening in UNCAC, then we have a serious lapse. Let us act louder than our words. Let us not just give lip-service to the Anti-Corruption Commission or corruption. Let us be serious and let what we say be put into action. Otherwise, we will be praising ourselves for achieving 30 per cent which, I do not accept.

Sir, in winding up my debate, I would like to share one thing that touched me at that conference. These were the posters that were put up. I know the House will be encouraged by these posters. They are six and the first one says:

“These children were never taught because the civil servant stole the funds needed to run this school.”

The second poster is of a picture of a bed at a hospital and it says:

“This life was neglected because this baby’s mother could not pay the bribe for care at the hospital.”

The third poster shows a picture of a bank and it says:

“This bank was robbed because a bank manager embezzled millions, each year, leaving many people without pensions.”

The fourth poster shows a guzzle of a Court Judge and it says:

“This case was dismissed because the Judge accepted a bribe and set a known criminal free.”

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: The fifth picture shows a bridge and it says:

“This bridge was never built because a construction company disappeared along the line with the money leaving the local people stranded.”

The last poster shows a picture of a ballot box. It says:

“These voters were cheated because the officials stole the ballot box and bought votes.”


Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Simuusa laid the papers on the Table.

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I am going to be very brief because Hon. Simuusa has touched all the necessary points that I wanted to touch.

Mr Simuusa crossed the Floor.


Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, the issue is merely the cost of corruption. While corruption is a serious crime, it is also a lubricant for other forms of crime. How is it possible that a Chinese could be found with tonnes and tonnes of copper in his house? Some of the copper was hidden underground, in the servant’s quarters and in the rooms in his house. How possible is that? Surely, are there any people who see this happen? Who is protecting this Chinese and what happened to this Chinese because he was caught? He flew back to China and we do not know where that copper is.

Sir, how is it possible that a Chinese could be found with tonnes of cubic concentrates in his house? How can someone take the concentrates from the smelter or the refinery to his House? How possible is it that someone who is running a mine and selling copper at US$6,000 per metric tonne can fail to pay his workers? Who is …

Mr M. B. Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member in order to mislead this House and the nation by implying that when the price of copper is at US$6,000 per tonne on a particular day, it means that you have got revenue, when he knows very well, having been with the Metal Exporting and Marketing Corporation (MEMACO), that it is otherwise? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Chota, you may wish to take that point of order into account as you debate.

You may continue.

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the price of spot sales, which have, in actual fact, gone up. I do not want to talk about that.

Mr Chairperson, why can that employer not pay the poorly paid workers well? Why not? It has been estimated that the mining industry will produce in excess of 700,000 tonnes of copper. How can someone fail to pay the workers, who happen to know what is going on?

Hon. Opposition Member: Including the suppliers.

Mr Chota: Yes, including the suppliers.

How possible is that? Who is protecting these miners? There are laws in this country. Do our people have to suffer? The environment is being polluted. That is the cost of corruption.

Mr Chairperson, in Lubansenshi, there is the mukwa tree. There is a certain individual cutting down the mukwa tree in this area and taking it to Tanzania raw and as a result, there is serious environmental damage in this area.

 In my constituency, there are rivers running all year round. The rivers never run dry, therefore, we need those trees to keep the rivers running. This person is damaging the bridges we have managed to maintain using the Constituency Development Fund (CDF). Senior Chief Shimumbi is not aware. He is saying it is the forestry officers who gave this individual the licence. How much are we getting from the exportation of these mukwa logs? Can someone tell me how much we are getting from the mukwa being cut and taken straight to Tanzania? This is being done everyday. This is the cost of corruption.

Mr Chairperson, someone should be able to know the officer from the Forestry Department who issued this licence. Now people cannot even collect caterpillars because the trees have been felled and taken to Tanzania. How much are we getting from the Mukwa being exported? How much is the Government getting? That is the cost of corruption.

Mr Chairperson, at the moment, …

Hon. MMD Member: Corruption is in the eye of the beholder.

Mr Chota: We may say corruption is in the eye of the beholder based on perception. Even researchers base their research on perception. My colleague talked about the Corruption Perception Index, which starts from zero to ten. If you have ten, then you have 100 per cent …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours. {mospagebreak}


Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was talking about the Corruption Perception Index and I was saying that it starts from zero to ten. We worked so well and I am sure that it was during the late President Mwanawasa’s Administration that we managed to get to zero point two going onto zero point three, which was a very good achievement.

I do not know, however, what will happen in the next assessment. Already in Solwezi, there is a very prominent Executive wing dishing out money to the electorate. What is the perception of the people? You know very well that people are preparing to go for elections and you go there and start giving out money. You are going to be perceived in a certain way.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: It is as simple as that.

Mr Chairperson, I am talking about the cost of corruption. We have sat in this House and have been told that …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Somebody is on the Floor of the House, do not disturb him.

You may continue.

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your protection.

Mr Chairperson, we have been told not to panic because fuel is on the way. One month has gone by. Just this afternoon, there was a near accident because of the queue on the Great East Road. Cars were lining up to refill at Arcades BP Filling Station and this man who was driving from town thought that they were actually moving and almost bashed into someone else’s car. This happened a few minutes ago and we are being told not to panic. Who is protecting who? What is happening?

Mr Chairperson, why can someone not just come up and say there is no money to bring in crude oil? Why can people not just admit this? We will accept it. It is, however, when people ask us not to panic or worry, and tell us that everything will be alright when nothing is happening that we perceive that something is happening and someone somewhere is gaining out of this shortage. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, my colleague talked about the meeting we attended in Doha, Qatar. We started this and so far we have been very good fighters. In fact, the people at this meeting knew all the people who have been fighting corruption. They were even asking for Nelson Banda …

Hon. Members: Nickson!

Mr Chota: Nickson. All the people from Southern and Eastern Africa and even those from Europe asked for Nickson Banda. Not a single person came from the Anti-Corruption Commission. I feel sorry for them because they have shortage of manpower. The whole of the Northern Province only has one or two officers from the Anti-Corruption Commission and they have no money or transport. Since corruption hurts us all, each one of us has shared responsibility to prevent and fight it.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to this very important vote, the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Mr Chairperson, the Anti-Corruption Commission is an important institution in this country in the fight against corruption and related crimes.

Sir, in looking at this discussion, I would like to take a historical perspective. The law which was called the Corrupt Practices Act was first passed in this country in 1980 under the Government of Dr Kaunda and it was meant to begin fighting corruption. Having said that, I would like to quote some sections of that Act as it was also amended in 1982 and 1987. Clause 4 of the Corrupt Practices Act Sub-Clause 1 established the Anti-Corruption Commission and Clause 4 Sub-Section 2 reads as follows:

“The commission shall be a Government Department under the control and supervision of the President.”

Sir, in Clause 5 Sub-Section 2, it further says:

“The commission shall not be subject to the direction or control of any person other than the President.”

Sir, at this time, you can see that the Anti-Corruption Commission was reporting to the President and worked under the direction of the President. As we went along and the country democratised and multi-partism was introduced, we saw that it was not satisfactory. It was seen that a situation where the Anti-Corruption Commission reported to and was under the direction of the President was not tenable.

Therefore, under the Government of President Chiluba, the Act was amended and independence of the ACC was strengthened. Therefore, Article 5 of the Anti-Corruption Commission after the new Act was passed reads as follows:

“The commission shall not, in the performance of its duties, be subject to the direction and control of any person or any authority.”

Therefore, we were making some progress and making this institution independent. The reason I am stressing this is that if an investigative institution such as the Anti-Corruption Commission is under the supervision and direction of one person who is also a politician, it becomes very difficult because investigations can be targeted or selective. It is extremely important that this institution works independently and treats every person fairly.

Mr Chairperson, during the reign of President Mwanawasa, in continuing to fight corruption, he decided to set up an ad hoc committee called the Task Force against Corruption. This institution was set up specifically to look at corruption that occurred during a certain period. It was mandated to look at corruption that was alleged to have taken place from 1991 to 2001. Therefore, the Task Force against Corruption went and worked, but it has brought in some controversies because some of the issues that have been raised are that, unlike the Anti-Corruption Commission, which is not under the direction of anybody or any authority and that has to be professional, this force was an administrative set up arrangement which was working under the direction of the person who set it up, in this case, the President. We know what we have been trying to run away from in this House and in this country and it is to let the laws guide decisions and not be bias or depend on the discretion or direction of individuals.

Sir, we saw that during the era of the Task Force against Corruption, it had a lot of resources because it was funded by the Government and by donors. In fact, it enjoyed more resources than the Anti-Corruption Commission. It had also more access to the center of power. People at the Task Force against Corruption, including the Chairperson and the investigators could easily get the audience of His Honour the Vice-President or even the President. Therefore, they had more power than the Anti-Corruption Commission which was set up under an Act of Parliament. In fact, this institution called the Task Force against Corruption was so powerful that they could even cause the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP), a constitutional office holder, to be kicked out of office when they disagreed with him. This is what happened when the late DPP, Mr Mukelebai Mukelebai was removed.

Sir, as I have said, justice cannot be assured with an ad hoc institution that is operating under the direction of one individual. We have to set up systems in this House. We have always debated and out there people have bemoaned that institutions that are important must not be under the direction and control of individuals, but must be under the control of laws that are set up in such a manner that these can prosecute the fight against corruption in a just and fair manner so that individuals are not targeted.

In this regard, it is extremely important that the Government is now giving more emphasis and resources to the Anti-Corruption Commission because this is an institution that can be independent. Already, people are accusing the Head of State of making decisions on this and that. You can imagine what people would say if an institution that was controlled by the President were responsible for the fight against corruption, even when they have made the right decision, everybody will say, no, they have been directed. However, here we have an Act of Parliament that stipulates that the Director-General of the Anti-Corruption Commission does not have to report to anybody. He is protected by the law. This is what we are going to have. In my view, this is extremely important.

For example, under the Task Force against Corruption because it was an ad hoc arrangement and under the direction of the then Head of State, we had a situation …

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I have stood on a very serious point of order.

Mr Chairperson, you are aware that Mr Aaron Chungu and his colleague have taken the matter of the legality of the Task Force against Corruption to the High Court and this matter is still in court. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to talk about the matter which has not yet been sorted out in court? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: My understanding is that the hon. Member for Luapula was debating in general terms, without specifically mentioning who and so on. Therefore, I did not hear anything that could have compelled me to stop the person from debating.

Can the hon. Member on the Floor continue.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: Sir, I would like to thank you for that guidance.

Sir, maybe, permit me try to propound a little further so that people can understand. Here, I am not even talking about whether the Task Force against Corruption was legal or not. The point I am trying to make is that an institution that has constitutional protection is likely to be more impartial in its administration of justice or investigations than one which is under the direction of a single individual and which is also under an ad-hoc arrangement which is not provided for under the law. This is what existed. In fact, this is why we had situations where this institution even accepted memorandum of understanding which stated that this institution was going to operate and deal with the DPP who would also liaise on its behalf with the Judiciary.

Sir, if you are playing soccer - and we had a very important match yesterday, Algeria versus Egypt - and it was found that at night the coach for the Algerian team went to discuss the game with the referee and if the Algerians won, what would the Egyptians say after they found out that the coach for the opposing team had been engaged in discussions and dealings with the referee? Obviously, there would be a problem. What we are saying is that there was an agreement with the people funding this institution that, for us to fund it, there had to be such an arrangement where the Director of Public Prosecutions was going to liaise and collaborate with the Task Force against Corruption and talk to the Judiciary quietly somewhere and that is obviously subverting the law. This is why this institution had to go.

For those who are saying it must continue, what would happen if this arrangement, which is ad hoc, continued and directly reported to the Head of State or whoever and people were prosecuted? What would they say? The people would be saying that the force had been directed to investigate them. The ACC which is mandated and does not report to anybody when conducting investigations is the way forward. I commend the decision to allocate more resources to the ACC.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa: In the long run, that is the only way justice and fair investigations that do not look at the face of a person will be assured.

I would like to add that the ACC must, in future, avoid getting into agreements with any donor or whoever is funding to bring conditionalities on how they are going to investigate. I know that from time-to-time, institutions such as the ACC will accept funding from our bilateral partners with a goodwill, but those partners should not dictate how and who to investigate because that means that these institutions will not help bring justice to the country but subvert it. I am confident that we are going the right way.

As Hon. Chota has said, a lot of countries in the region used to come here to learn about the ACC and how we set it up. I said that the first Act was enacted by this House in 1980 when a lot of countries in the region did not have such an institution. What I am saying is that we have an institution which we must strengthen and support so that it works to take the fight against corruption to very high heights in this country.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikota, SC. (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote.

From the outset, let me congratulate the Government and the country on the positive movement on the Transparency International (TI) Corruption Perception Index.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC.: Mr Chairperson, whereas it would be nice if our points were a perfect ten because that is what we should be striving for, what is important is that we must recognise that we are going in the right direction. We are not going backwards but forwards and that is very important.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota, SC.: There are countries such as the United Kingdom, which have fallen on the TI Corruption Perception Index, and they are the ones who should be worried with regard to the direction in which they are going and try to turn around. We should merely try to accelerate and keep going in the direction we have taken.

Mr Chairperson, it is important that we do not become complacent as a country. For us to fight corruption, there must be an eternal vigilance and that is an absolute requirement, otherwise we could find ourselves going in the wrong direction. That is why I am a little disappointed that there is only K33,737,275,657 allocated to the ACC. I wish that there was more allocated to the ACC because it is a very important institution in my view.

Mr Chairperson, there are certain areas which do not make a lot of sense in the budget for the ACC, for example, there is a provision for Unit 1, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Commissioners Quarterly Meeting – K30,000,000, Activity 03 – Extraordinary Commissioners Meetings – K36,584,139. One would have thought that the regular meetings are the ones which should have more money than the extraordinary ones, but that, I suppose, will be explained as we go along. There is also a drop in the allocation of capacity building from K872,295,500 to K172,417,635.

Like I said, there needs to be eternal vigilance when it comes to the fight against corruption and if we let our guard down in building capacity, we could find ourselves wanting. However, there are also positive areas such as for investigations where there has been almost a doubling of the allocation from Unit 4, Programme 8 – K593,067,847 to K1,000,110,000 and this is very encouraging and shows that there is a will to fight corruption.

Last year, K70,180,000 million was used to conduct research in corrupt-prone areas and it would be interesting to know the results of this research and what measures will be put in place as a result of this research which was conducted last year at such a high cost.

One area which, perhaps, deals with perceptions of people in terms of corruption is how transparently we do things. There is a provision on page 958 of the Yellow Book Unit 8, Programme 8 – Increasing Conviction Rates – K800,998,142. It is important for us to have transparency because when you read this together with what Dr Machungwa has just been debating about the MoU which was signed with certain donors, one wonders whether this is the link with that particular provision.

I will read the provision which I think Dr Machungwa was referring to in the MoU. It is Clause 2.5 and it reads:

“The successful prosecution of these cases will depend, to a large extent, on the integrity and competence and the magistrates assigned to handle the cases. Whilst the Task Force has no direct influence over the assignment of magistrates to individual cases, it will be beneficial to have a few of the best magistrates designated to handle all the cases brought by the Task Force. The Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions should, as far as possible, maintain contact with the Judiciary on behalf of the Task Force, acting, at all times, within the limits of appropriate behaviour and ethical conduct expected of legal advisors on behalf of parties to mitigation”.

This wording is very unfortunate. The concept of picking specially-designated magistrates and judges is worrisome. There is a need for an explanation on what exactly was meant by this because it gives the impression, as Dr Machungwa stated, that these consultations are made directly with the Judiciary and magistrates without the other side being there. In our legal system, that is certainly not acceptable and it is not surprising that some people feel uncomfortable because this wording suggests that that which is not permissible is what was agreed upon in the MoU. This is especially important when you consider that the Task Force was supposed to be looking at corruption and so everything that the Task Force did was supposed to be not only above board, but also seen to be above board. This particular provision takes away that perception of it being above board.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy that there has been the merging of the Task Force into the ACC. From inception, I have been one of those who questioned the necessity of forming the Task Force against Corruption and I have always advocated for, instead of having the Task Force merely increasing the capacity and capability of the ACC, I believe that fusing the Task Force against Corruption into the ACC will help in the fight against corruption and will mean that we have less of the squabbles that we are seeing between the different investigative wings of Government, and hence we will have greater efficiency.

Mr Chairperson, I believe that there is a need to now conduct a thorough audit of the Task Force against Corruption, seeing that it has come to an end. When it comes to an end, there will be a need to close the books regarding that. Therefore, there is a need for a very thorough audit of the Task Force against Corruption in order to close the chapter of the Task Force against Corruption.

Mr Chairperson, there are issues which I raised a few years back regarding the manner in which the Task Force against Corruption  was handling its monies. For example, in the whole issue of OVAG, there was US$700,000 which was moved in extremely suspicious circumstances. Within a space of two days, special dispensation was given for the movement of that money abroad to OVAG, and yet the agreement with OVAG was that they would be paid on a success basis. At that point, OVAG had not made any recoveries, and hence the whole issue of how and why the US$700,000 was paid to them was extremely suspicious. There is a need for all those kind of things to be investigated and the air to be cleared.

Mr Chairperson, I started off by congratulating the people of Zambia and the Government on the positive moment in terms of the Corruption Perception Index. It is important, if we are to carry on in the same direction, that we take measures that will ensure that we keep going in the same direction.

One of those things that can be done which I plead to the Executive to look at afresh and with a favourable eye is the whole question of the Freedom of Information Bill. Having a Freedom of Information Bill will greatly enhance the fight against corruption and will help to bring about greater transparency. Having a Freedom of Information Bill enacted would guarantee, in my view, that we would jump from a weighting of 3.0 to above five. Just that one Act alone would make us jump very high on the Corruption Perception Index and it is something I hope will be considered favourably.

Mr Chairperson, there are those who seem to think that the corruption perception index reacts to issues that happen very slowly. That is not the case. What we do today will reflect in the 2010 report. If one reads the electronic Guardian, for example, you will find that the reasons Britain has fallen on the corruption perception index for 2009 is that of the Members of Parliament expenses scandal which happened just about mid this year. Therefore, it is not that it takes so long otherwise that fall by Britain would not have occurred. It is things that have happened in the recent past that have contributed to our going forward in the Corruption Perception Index. Otherwise, we would not have seen the United Kingdom being impacted by the Members of Parliament expenses scandal in the manner that it has.

Mr Chairperson, with those few words, I wish to give more than double support to the Vote in the hope that the actual monies will also be doubled as per the support that it is getting.

I thank you, Sir.

The Chief Whip (Mr Mwaanga): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to participate in this important debate. The ACC is an important governance institution because it performs very important duties for the Republic of Zambia and citizens of our country and it must be congratulated on all the efforts that it is making in fighting the scourge of corruption.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Mr Chairperson, I would like to take note of the contents of the Corruption Perception Index Report which has been alluded to by Hon. Sakwiba Sikota, SC. and was released two days ago by Transparency International. The report shows that the efforts of successive MMD Governments to fight against corruption are slowly beginning to bear fruit.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: Zambia’s standing on the Corruption Perception Index has improved and there is no doubt about that except for those who quarrel with statistics which are issued …


Mr Mwaanga: … as a result of the empirical evidence which is released by credible organisations. I have no quarrel with statistics.

Mr Chairperson, it is clear that countries like Somalia, Afghanistan and Myanmar, formerly Burma, are at the bottom of the 180 countries that were surveyed in. It is also clear that there are still a number of countries which are ahead of us, such as Botswana and Malawi which have slightly higher ratings than us. Therefore, this shows that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) Government’s policy of zero tolerance to corruption is working.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: This policy has been in the manifesto of the MMD as well as in the MMD Party Constitution since 1991. It is something that we, on this side, have been committed to for so many years now. It cannot be attributed to any single individual. It has to be attributed to the policies of the MMD and its manifesto which it presented to this country when we came into power in 1991.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: We have consistently repeated this assertion in our policies and that is a matter of record. I would like to thank …

Mr Kambwili stood up and walked out of the Chamber.


Mr Mwaanga: … and congratulate the people of Zambia on helping the Government in the fight against corruption and the ACC for the role …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

Mr Mwaanga: … it continues to play in this fight. While deservedly congratulating ourselves for the progress we have, so far, made, I would like to caution us, like Hon. Sikota, SC. has done, against complacency. Complacency is an enemy of progress. We, on this side, do not suffer from complacency because we realise that the fight against corruption is not a one-off act, but a continuous act which will go on even with subsequent MMD Governments which will come to power beyond 2011.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: This fight is not over by any chance. It is a fight we must sustain and one which we are absolutely committed to intensifying our programmes to make sure that we register more successes in future.

Mr Chairperson, the ACC has been armed with the Anti-Corruption Policy, which His Honour the Vice-President so very ably explained and it is doing a commendable job. I would like to urge this House to unreservedly support its work. No one, on this side of the House, is saying that there is no corruption in Zambia. What we are saying is that we are making progress in the fight against corruption and that zero tolerance to corruption remains our main objective. Every country has the right to set goals and to work towards achieving them.

If there are hon. Members of Parliament or political parties that do not believe in this fight, that is there problem. We, on this side, are totally committed to the fight against corruption and we will ensure that the ACC is supported so that it can do its work.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwaanga: If there are hon. Members of Parliament who have instances of issues they want to raise that hinge on corruption, it is their duty and that of all the citizens of Zambia to go to the ACC and report cases of suspected corruption so that they can be professionally investigated. This is the best way we can support the fight against corruption.

Mr Chairperson, we, on this side of the House, are extremely serious and we know that our stand against corruption is supported by a great majority of the people of Zambia. With these remarks, I therefore urge this House to support the fight against corruption and the Government’s efforts to ensure that we rid our society of corruption and all its vices.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute a few of my sentiments on this important Vote for the ACC. The ACC has done this country a disservice. The principles on which the commission was formed have not been realised. As a nation, we have expended millions if not trillions of Kwacha in terms of allocations to this commission. However, the net returns, in terms of curbing the vices of corruption, leave much to be desired.

Sir, I cannot blame the men and women working for this commission because they are professionals and I am quite sure that they work under very difficult conditions. Therefore, I would not be surprised if they are a frustrated lot because of so much interference from the State.


Mr Mwenya: Sir, corruption has risen to very high levels such that if it was something we could load on about ten titanic ships, they would all sink.


Mr Mwenya: Today, wherever you look or cast your eyes, you see corruption. When you try to smell, you smell corruption and when you try to listen, you hear nothing, but corruption. The major culprits are those at the helm of Government, the so-called “big fish”. This has now trickled to all ministries and the precious donor funds are milked together with the little resources that are raised locally. Our country is in total confusion. The country has literally lost direction. The state of our infrastructure is in a mess. There is nothing that we are proud about. The state of schools, hospitals, roads and everything else is today in a total mess. The Government cannot garner any confidence from the people because of the state of the nation. To sum it all, our beloved country has lost its identity and dignity.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Sir, the Zambian people are not fools and they have been watching us. Even in this House, there are people who were involved in the infamous K2 billion scandal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: There is also the manipulation of the people’s votes and abuse of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) by hon. Members of Parliament. All of these are corruption matters.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Sir, unless we, the leaders, entrusted with the running of the national affairs, become honest in our dealings and work to bring back morality and integrity at our level, we shall not fight corruption in this country. It is not just a matter of talking about corruption, but we would want to see action taken to reduce the vice. I would like to praise my president, Mr Sata, …

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: … for being so committed to the fight against corruption.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: I would also want to praise his colleague, …

Mr Shawa: Question!

Mr Mwenya: … President Hichilema for standing up to the same challenge.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwenya: Sir, the men and women in this commission need to be given the autonomy they deserve. Let them use their conviction without any untold interference in conducting their work. If only corruption were reduced to the minimum or completely eliminated, we would be able to see a lot of improvement in all sectors of development and only then can all the funds allocated to all the sectors be utilised as per the Budget.

Mr Chairperson, the Executive do not need to be reminded of what is needed to be done. They know it all. I believe all this is done deliberately to pave way for their underhand methods to enrich themselves at the expense of the general populace.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene (Itezhi-tezhi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this Vote on the Anti-Corruption Commission.

Sir, I want to disagree from the arguments of certain colleagues of mine and say that the separation of the Task Force against Corruption and the Anti-Corruption Commission (ACC) really helped to deal with the issues of corruption. Let us try to face reality. This Task Force against Corruption was formed by the former Head of State, using his powers, so that he could expedite the issues that were on the table which related to issues of corruption in this country. This institution was to deal with some of his party members or those who were in the Government which was in power then. This Task Force against Corruption actually helped in dealing with the persons who were in the basket of people who were culprits which the force brought to book. The problem we have here is the Executive has been trying to use this institution with divide and rule tactics.

Mr Chairperson, we should thank the Task Force against Corruption for the job it did. If you followed the activities of the Task Force, it had to go round the world where the culprits hid the money, for instance, in Mauritius and the United States of America. Very complex deals were made in those countries. However, the problem which we have now is that some politicians are now trying to create friendship with those culprits who stole money from this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: They want to have political gain and assistance from those people. This will not work out.

Mr Chairperson, the staff at the ACC also got frustrated due to the lack of proper co-ordination between the Task Force against Corruption and the ACC. We have other law enforcement agencies in this country such as the police who are supposed to be helping in this process, but look at the status of their welfare. They sleep in very small houses which were built in the 1920s. Their salaries are so low, but you expect them to arrest somebody who has stolen K3 billion.

Hon. Opposition Members: New point!

Mr Beene: Please, can we get very serious with these issues? The money allocated to this Vote is too little. I am asking the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning to try and move money from certain votes if really the Government means to dismantle the Task Force against Corruption so that the ACC can continue the Task Force against Corruption’s work. Can you give enough money to this commission for it to work properly?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: We cannot talk about zero tolerance because people from the Judiciary have a super structure on top, the other people who are unionised are also in the Judiciary, but what are their salaries and conditions of service? These people are the ones who move the files.


Mr Beene: This has to be looked into in totality. Mr Chairperson, let me not get into the complexes of index chains and other things, but let us zero in on the reality of what happens.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: As regards fertiliser, where does it go? Is it reaching the farmer down there? As I am talking now, trucks of fertiliser are moving day and night transporting fertiliser from the rural areas coming back to Lusaka to be sold. If you pay them so little, how do you expect them to track those issues? Those are the issues we need to talk about in here.

Mr Chairperson, provincial headquarters are allocated money, but are those monies getting to the constituencies or districts? Money which is meant to build certain schools and other things is being used by officials for diesel.

Mr Mwenya: Omwila kowaala!

Mr Beene: Mr Chairperson, the Southern Province had an allocation of over K2 billion for fuel and my constituency was given K18 million for the same, therefore, which corruption are you talking about? These are straight forward matters. How many audit reports has this country produced and how many people have been convicted and taken to the courts?

Dr Katema: They acquit them.

Mr Beene: Nothing, noto, zero.


Mr Beene: Those are the issues which we are talking about. That money you have allocated to ACC and if you mean to dismantle the Task Force against Corruption and empower the commission, can you give it the right amount of money, otherwise we are not going anywhere.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Beene: Mr Chairperson, if there is a government which has been left with the legacy of corruption which destroyed this country, it is the one that came into power in 1991. That is a fact. If anything, the late President Mwanawasa tried to curb corruption. Sir, let me assure this Government that if I praise it for having done well so far, I am not helping it because it will be going backwards, instead of it pulling up its socks. People are listening out there. You must not interfere in matters. Let the courts and the commission be independent. Everyone knows that this Parliament sat here and read a booklet about the corruption which took place in the Chiluba Government. Today nobody is appealing against the judgment in that case. Nobody is dull. They are all looking at what you are doing, and yet you are saying that you are doing very fine.

Sir, with these few words, I thank you.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC.): Mr Chairperson, I have had the benefit of comparing constitutions of political parties and manifestos. One of the political parties has a constitution which says that …

Mr D. Mwila: Which party?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … all judges will be disciplined by the central committee of that political party.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Mwila, I think you are not being fair. When Hon. Beene was debating, you people were quiet which is how it should be. Now the other side is debating, you want to interject. You will force me to take action which you will not like.

You may continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we must show commitment to fighting corruption in deeds and in the way we organise our political parties. This particular constitution which I have seen has no separation of powers whatsoever.

Hon. Government Members: Shame!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Judges will be appearing before the party central committee. All the institutions in the country will be answerable to the this party central committee and all employees in all the institutions will be members of that political party. How can we fight corruption if this will be the arrangement?

Sir, in this country, corruption is not the only offence. I was listening to some speeches which suggested that to fight corruption we should almost be like saints. I wish to say that in addition, we should also conduct self-inspection. We should look at the backgrounds of the people who make allegations of corruption. Are they not involved in other vices? There are several other offences which are under the Penal Code. There is money laundering, theft, homosexuality, dagga smoking and other offences under the Penal Code.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is not only corruption that is a vice. We should look at people who have had criminal backgrounds before. They always want to accuse us of corruption and yet they had dockets with the ACC when they were in Government.


The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

You may continue.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, listening to some of the contributions on the Corruption Perception Index, I observed that the perception has tremendously improved. I must congratulate, for the first time, Transparency International Zambia (TIZ) on being objective. We will work with Transparency International Zambia because we have had positive results and this is good for the country. We must give credit where it is due. There are countries which are leaders in good governance and sliding on the perception index such as the United States of America and United Kingdom and yet they are the leaders. They have suggested ways and means in which we can fight corruption. We have accepted their suggestions and that is why our index is improving. It is also because we are committed and taking into account what they are suggesting to us.

Mr Chairperson, if the levels of corruption were to be measured by what is written in the newspapers, this country would not receive any donor funding and it would be the lowest on the Corruption perception index. We have, on the Millennium Challenge Account, for example, indicators which show that we have done well. That is why we are still on this programme. I tend to believe these perceptions, through TIZ and their associates, are measured empirically. These countries which are still supporting us still believe that we are doing very well. That is why they are still able to give us donor funding.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: These wild allegations which are made in the newspapers cannot be the basis for measuring corruption because some of the newspapers have vowed to make allegations of corruption on a daily basis and they do this.

Now, there was the issue of a seminar which the hon. Member for Nchanga, Mr Simuusa, attended. These seminars about corruption are held everyday in those countries because these are money-making ventures and we cannot attend every seminar. It is impossible for the Government to do this. Where are we going to find time to work? We only attend those seminars where we are invited and can assess the value.

Sir, I am grateful, especially, for the high quality debates from the hon. Member for Livingstone, Mr Sikota, SC. and the hon. Member for Luapula, Dr Machungwa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: This is promoting high standards in the House. Instead of making wild allegations in the House, we should emulate these high standards of debate.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 87/01 – (Anti-Corruption Commission – Headquarters – K33,737,275,657).

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 952, Programme 6, Activity 05 – Internet Charges – K111,168,212.

The Deputy Minister of Justice (Mr Chilembo): Mr Chairperson, on Programme 6, Activity 05 – Internet Charges – K111,168,212, this provision is dependant on usage. These are fixed charges and that particular allocation has taken into account what could be payable.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on page 952, Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K1,665,582,069 in connection with Programme 2, Activity 05 – Payable of Special Allowances to Officers – K1,650,695,440. Other emoluments imply other allowances. Why has the ministry provided K1.6 billion for other emoluments and, again, K1.6 million for allowances under general administration to the officers?  Secondly, on Programme 2, Activity 08 – Procurement of Stationery – K350,000,000, may I find out why there is a duplication in allowances on these two programmes mentioned above?

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, on Programme 2, Activity 08 – Procurement of Stationery – K350,000,000, the increase in the allocation is because in the past, this activity was supplemented by donor support. However, the entire activity has been budgeted for under Government funding in 2010.

As regards the second question, on Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K1,665,582,069 in connection with Programme 2, Activity 05 – Payable Special Allowances to Officers - K1,650,695,440 - the modest increase of 6 per cent is meant to immediately align the 2010 allocation to the actual cost of this activity in 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 8, Programme 8 – Prosecutions – K800,998,142.  I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how he expects the ACC to accomodate the recently-established Financial Intelligence Unit when there is only an increase of K100,000,000 towards prosecutions.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, that particular item is under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: So it is ad hoc? That is a serious contradiction.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 5, Programme 9, Activity 05 – Conducting Corruption Prevention Exercises – K20,000,000. I would like to find out what prevention exercises will be conducted in that amount because I am told that the ACC will no longer be so much into investigations, but prevention. May I also have clarification on Unit 8, Programme 8, Activity 09 – Acquisition of Prosecution Material – Nil? I would like to find out why we have no provision in this Budget, but in the previous one there was K118,000,000 for this activity.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, Unit 5, Programme 9, Activity 05 – Conducting Corruption Prevention Exercises – K20,000,000, is an important exercise that has attracted overwhelming support and demand from public institutions that the commission has had joint assignments with Unit 8, Programme 8, Activity 09 – Acquisition of Prosecution Material – Nil. The activity has moved to administration.

I thank you, Sir.


Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, firstly, I would like to say that my question was not adequately answered. I know that Other Emoluments refer to allowances. Why is it that there is Unit 1, Programme 1, Activity 05 – Other Emoluments – K1,665,582,069  and Programme 2, Activity 05 – Payment of Special Allowances to Officers – K1,650,693,440? Secondly, I would like to find out if the salaries provided for on page 952 are the salaries to cater for all the departments of the ACC.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, Other Emoluments relates to payments such as leave pay and bonuses. They will be different from actual salaries and over time.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Magande: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 6, Programme 8, Activity 01 – Production of Educational Materials and Promotional Materials – K67,250,000,   and Activity 02 – Public Discussions – K50,860,000. I would also like to find out why there is no allocation on Unit 6, Programme 8, Activity 20 – Production of TV and Radio Programmes? Are they being funded by a donor somewhere? His Honour the Vice-President talked about prevention and all these are educational programmes which are very important for people to be sensitised on anti-corruption measures.

Mr Chilembo: Mr Chairperson, there is a reduction in the 2010 allocation to most of the activities because most of them were carried out in the past with the support of corporate partners in the 2009 allocations and will come to an end in 2009. Discussions for new projects to be supported by co-operating partners are still under discussion. The 2010 allocation of K664 million is from the Government and is higher than the 2009 allocation from the Government, of K354 million.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili: Mr Chairperson, my other question relating to salaries has not been answered. I would like to find out if the salaries provided for under Human Resource and Administration are the salaries to pay the entire staff in the ACC. If so, why is it that each Unit within the same Head is providing for salaries for its staff?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, salaries and emoluments are based on actual positions and the establishment. That is the position.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 87/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 77 – (Ministry of Defence – K1,344,080,814,560).

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Chairperson, it is my honour to stand before this august House to deliver a policy statement on the Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Defence for the period 1st January to 31st December, 2010.

Mr Chairperson, the Mission Statement for the Ministry of Defence …


The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let us listen.

Dr Mwansa: … is to preserve, protect and defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Zambia in order to maintain peace and security for all the citizens and other residents.

In my statement to this august House earlier this year, I explained the challenges my ministry faced in order to adequately fulfill this mandate through interventions from the Ministry of Finance and National Planning. It is, again, hoped that the long-term programme to re-equip and modernise our Defence Forces shall continue.

The modernisation of the Defence Forces shall be broken down into three components as follows:

 (a)  infrastructure development;

 (b) equipment and spares acquisition; and

 (c) continuous training.

Mr Chairperson, despite the financial challenges my ministry faces, we shall continue to perform a number of core functions that include the following:

 (i) conducting patrols throughout various border points;

(ii) carrying out internal joint operations with other security wings of the Government;

(iii) promotion of defence and security co-operation with neighbouring countries through joint permanent commissions;

(iv) conducting aerial surveillance; and

(v) participating in international joint operations organised through such organs as the African Union (AU), the United Nations (UN) and the Southern African Development Community (SADC). This interaction results into, among many other things, peaceful settlement of potential disputes and promotion of peace, security and good neighbourliness.

Mr Chairperson, with these introductory remarks, I will now briefly highlight the 2009 Budget performance and salient features of my ministry’s 2010 Budget.

The Ministry of Defence had an approved budget estimate of K1,067,259,617,403 in the year ending 31st December, 2009.

The ministry achieved, in the year under review, among others, the following:

(i) substantially reduced outstanding personnel-related claims to various personnel services. A total of K15 billion was spent on this exercise;

(ii) re-arranged four major projects namely; the Northern Command Hospital in Ndola, the Zambia Army’s L85, Zambia Air Force’s (ZAF) Twin Palm and Zambia National Service’s (ZNS) Makeni Camp in terms of priority for further development and completed, in addition to the procurement of a block of flats, rehabilitation of students’ hostels  and construction of mini-hospitals in various cantonments;

(iii) entered into contracts worth over K423 billion for the procurement of military equipment for the services;

(iv) developed an HIV /AIDS Workplace Policy; and

(v) contributed during the 2008 to 2009 season, through ZNS, to national food security by producing 2,946.3 and 85.9 metric tonnes of maize and wheat, respectively.

Salient Features of the 2010 Budget

Personal Emoluments

Mr Chairperson, in 2010, the ministry’s expenditure on personal emoluments will increase because of the 15 per cent salary increase awarded to all Public Service personnel and the planned recruitment by the three services earmarked for 2010. The 2010 Budget Estimates for personal emoluments reflects an increase of 18.8 per cent over that for 2009.

Sir, as earlier stated, the ministry, through the defence services, shall continue with military patrols of our common borders with neighbouring countries in order to ensure peace and stability along these borders. This will also include securing the air space and guarding strategic national installations.

Mr Chairperson, the ministry shall continue to take steps to build housing units for our service personnel which, currently, are grossly inadequate. All the services namely; the Zambia Army, ZAF and ZNS are involved in the construction of houses for their personnel. Though the pace of constructing these houses is slow, plans are underway to step up our efforts in this direction in 2010. Therefore, it is our desire to see officers and men shift from rented accommodation into cantonments.

Sir, the ministry shall continue to foster bilateral relations with our neighbours through the holding of Joint Permanent Commissions on Defence and Security in 2010. The ministry plans to hold seven Joint Permanent Commissions on Defence and Security in 2010.

Mr Chairperson, the defence services shall continue to participate in peace-keeping operations as earlier stated, under the auspices of the African Union (AU), Southern African Development Community (SADC) and, indeed, the United Nations (UN). Through these operations, our troops are exposed to different military tactics and use of modern military equipment.

Currently, Zambia has deplored a large contingent of troops as part of the AU/UN Peace-Keeping Mission in Darfur, Sudan.

Sir, in this ever-changing world, our troops need to be equipped with modern methods of defending the State. The ministry shall, therefore, continue to procure specialized military equipment and maintain the existing ones in order to provide an enabling environment for training. Through such capacity building, the service’s service delivery shall be improved.

Mr Chairperson, the Ministry of Defence is committed to the promotion of gender equality and equity among defence personnel. To this end, sensitisation of all service personnel on gender issues in the workplaces and the importance of women’s participation in decision-making shall continue.

Sir, my ministry, through the Zambia National Service Land Development Branch, will continue to contribute to the opening of the rural areas through feeder roads construction, land clearing, borehole drilling and dam construction. These activities will contribute to the opening up of new, as well as old food production areas and enhance national food security.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, my ministry shall endeavour to continue performing its functions effectively and efficiently in fulfilling its mandate. I, therefore, call upon hon. Members of this august House to support my ministry’s budget estimates for 2010.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for affording me the opportunity to fully support the estimates allocated to the Ministry of Defence for the year of the Lord 2010.

Sir, I just want to acknowledge the increases that have been indicated, especially under personal emoluments from K27,668,183,449 in 2009 to K30,494,077,169 in 2010. I also want to thank the ministry for having reintroduced activities that are going to promote the health of our men in uniform, especially the  Run for Health Activity Public Service Day  and Youth Day just to mention a few, to which K210 million has been appropriated unlike in the previous years when there was no allocation.

Mr Chairperson, this is the way it should be because our men in uniform must be motivated for them to appreciate their activities and the role they play to guard the peace of our nation, Zambia.

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to forget that there are also women in uniform. Is he in order, Sir?


The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Chimbaka, you are being reminded to include women in your debate.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your guidance and thank my neighbour too.

Sir, let me say that the use of the word “persons” resolves the conflict that I may appear to create in the brain of my colleague, Hon. Musokotwane.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to commend the persons in uniform who, ever since 1964, have proved to the world that they are real persons of integrity, high morale and calibre.

Mr Bwalya: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Our persons in uniform have gone through thick and thin. Today, we are enjoying the peace because the persons in uniform, at the attainment of independence, fought racism and liberation wars, but they have not attempted to behave to the contrary to betray the trust and the confidence that the people of Zambia has bestowed on them.

Sir, I also want to commend these people, especially that when multi-partism was reintroduced, there have been several attempts by some politicians with insatiable lust to be in power to corrupt or influence the minds of the persons in uniform to rise or rebel against the Government. However, because of their integrity and wisdom, these people have failed lamentably to convince them to set our country on fire.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Hence, Zambia has a very good reputation internationally because our the behaviour of the persons in uniform has been exemplary to win a world reputation. That is why our country sends many persons in uniform to commissions that attempt to attain, realise and negotiate for peace in Africa and the world over.

Mr Chairperson, it is very important that we, as a Government, consider staff motivation for these persons through provision of quality uniform. I have interacted with a good number of them. What is required is for them to have two, three to four pairs of uniforms and shoes. These people would be very motivated.

Sir, I am talking on behalf of the persons I have interacted with. Another issue that they complain about is accommodation. Definitely, I know the Government is doing everything possible to ensure that it provides accommodation for men and women in uniform, but what is mostly important is that there should be a deliberate programme and policy, just like there is with hospitals to construct houses for them. I must commend our women in uniform because Maina Soko is a hospital exclusively for them. I recall, last year, women under the Zambia Air Force (ZAF) raised money to have a hospital of their own, which is a commendable effort. Therefore, as Zambians, we must consider respecting these people by accommodating them in designated areas such as barracks, where they will be protected from the corruption of the people who say they are not corrupt. Some of the people may corrupt these people willfully to the extent that they may give in and say, “maybe when we change or do this, these people will give us what we are being promised.”

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that rations are critical issues. For our men to refrain from corrupt practices, they must be fed very well. Therefore, the Procurement Department of the Ministry of Defence should make sure that the rations are delivered on time. In my constituency, Musonda Falls, in particular, and other areas along the border, we go every time and interact with these people. I therefore, appreciate their difficulties. At the moment, I would like to encourage the Government to put in a little more than it did in last year’s budget because a well-fed person is a very respectable person.

Sir, although I have not been in the Defence Forces, as a person who has interacted well with the Government for thirty-five years, I have a little insight of what happens in some other Government circles at different forums. What is most important is to know that there is one thing that our men and women in uniform are saying. They are saying that, definitely, emoluments do not mean much to them. Modernity in the provision of what they require to render total defence for our country is an issue that we must look at. Let us look at the issue of the ZNS. Those of you who lived then, will recall that Smith and Vosta called them the green labour. Why? They were called the most notorious army in Zambia. They were quite very effective and motivated. They enjoyed it. They had that patriotism in them. This is because the Government cared about them very well. Therefore, I want to plead that we inculcate a spirit of patriotism in our country. I am very passionate about this. You will recall that I had stated passionately about the reintroduction of the ZNS programmes, even for teachers and school leavers. That will instill a sense of patriotism in our posterity and they shall never shy away from defending our country politically, economically and socially. Once we have that, we are going to have men and women who are going to take over this country when we pass on.

Mr Chairperson, I think diluted integrity, loss of direction and not appreciating patriotism by our younger generation is a result of what we are seeing, today, where they want to rise and fight each other because they do not value co-existence.

Mr Chairperson, our image must be guarded very jealously and, I think, it is very cardinal that we do not allow our men and women in uniform to be victims of those that aspire for office.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I want to give room to others to contribute.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Defence and the ZNS, particularly, in Nsumbu. I thank the Ministry of Defence for quenching the pressure which was in Congo between 1997 and 1999. This brought the refugees that we have in Kawambwa and Mwange Refugee Camps. The men and women in uniform have also done a commendable job to bring piece in Kaputa District.

Sir, during the time of General Masheke, at one time, there was instability in Kapingu, which almost brought a misunderstanding between two governments. That misunderstanding continued and people were being harassed. The presence of the ZNS at Lake Tanganyika brought calmness and safety to the people of that area. It is in this regard that the people of Kaputa, Chimbamilonga in particular, salute the office of the ZNS, Major-General.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Sir, the men and women in that area have assisted with the development and the change of the mindset of people in terms of cleanliness, especially during the time of cholera. In 1978, Nsumbu, which is near Lake Tanganyika, was one of the prone areas of cholera in Zambia. These people helped with cleaning the walls, pit latrines and even clearing paths, which reduced the risk of people being attacked. We have to thank them because they are doing a recommendable job. They are realising their vision and motto in their ministries.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Mr Chairperson, there is another problem of water transport. I have just been talking to Major-General Chisheta’s predecessor. The people in that area need a speed boat which can assist them reach the boundary between Zambia and Congo which is know at Chibanga. The hon. Minister of Education has done that in Nchelenge and Samfya. The hon. Minister of Health has given us an ambulance. The Office of the President and the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) have done the same. The men in those areas are under pressure. They walk distances of about 20 kilometres. They go round wherever they hear there is instability. I am sure we must give them a boat so that they can rush and attend to problems in the area.

Sir, the presence of the engineering squad to attend to bridges will be a relief to us and the community.  I, therefore, urge the hon. Minister of Defence to revisit their policy and allow the engineering squad to attend to some bridges which are taking billions of kwacha through the ruthless contractors.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Like I mentioned earlier, these people have assisted the community to make a pathway from Nsumbu to Chibanga, which was a threat to people, but they are unable to provide a bridge. They say that it is not within their jurisdiction and they can only do that when told to do so. I am sure, the hon. Minister of Defence, the Army Commander and his counterparts must come to the aid of the people of Zambia. The people of Zambia should benefit from the men and women in uniform. The engineering squad, with the help of the Road Development Agency (RDA), should take over the construction works of bridges. This will reduce the transport costs in this country.

Mr Chairperson, like Hon. Chimbaka and Hon. Musokotwane said, we are being unfair to the men and women in uniform. They are lacking communication equipment. Right now, Chimbamilonga and Kipushi are not connected to any mobile service provider. The officers in Kipushi use the network from the Democratic Republic of Congo, thereby compromising our safety.

Equally, the officers in Nsumbu use the network from Tanzania. If one has a Tanzanian MTN sim card, he or she is bale to communicate with Lusaka. This also compromises our security. Much as we talk to service providers, can the ministry bring more sophisticated communication equipment as opposed to what they are using today? This will ensure easy flow of communication in that the computers in the area will be easily reached. Can they give them support through power generators? There was a proposal in Nsumbu to repair the old generator used by the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) and they were told to get clearance from Lusaka.

Mr Chairperson, through you, I am appealing to the hon. Minister of Defence to allocate some funds so that they may have power to ensure that their equipment is always charged and they are alert.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I beg to move.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to support the Vote for the Ministry of Defence. I wish to begin by stating that the defence of the country is an absolute necessity and must never be compromised. Without our country being secure, we cannot enjoy the freedom we have. A country that is compromised defencewise has no human rights to talk about. The human rights of people are compromised and everything else becomes chaos and chaotic. It is, therefore, extremely important that we ensure that those who look after our lives when we are sleeping, are aptly armed and equipped to do the job well.

Mr Chairperson, we must ensure that their personal interests are high on the agenda. We must also ensure that we shield them from some of the rudiments of problems that we, the civilians, face because they have enough troubles and pressure just knowing that their lives are always hanging in the balance. They have enough pressure knowing that if war broke out, they would be the first to face the bullets on our behalf. I think that we owe it to them to ensure that they are also happy in times of peace. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! 

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that in times of peace, we need to use our defence personnel in research.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: It is extremely important that sensitive research is given to people who are used to keeping secrets in terms of the security of our country. There are things you do not hand over to civilian researchers because we would be compromised. Some mouths are open twenty-fours a day.


Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Do not allow this to happen in the country if you want the security of the country to be assured.

Mr Chairperson, the …

Dr Machungwa interjected.

Mr Mwansa: Please, do not disturb me. There were scientists in the army. If you have not been there, it is the problem of our failure to look after their interests.

Mr Chairperson, if we look to the world outside, we are privileged to enjoy some things today. When we want to go out of the country, for instance, we just go to the International Airport and get on a plane. If we look up the history of passenger transport, we will discover that it emanated from military warfare. The planes of the military, before long, were converted to civilian use. Zambia is enjoying the use of cell phones today, but the history of cell phones is military. We need to realise that our friends, if assisted, have got capacity to produce the things that we require to ensure that our country is safe and secure.

Mr Chairperson, this is not all. We need to use our defence forces in times of peace to teach us how to look after ourselves defencewise. There is a phenomenon in this country that when there is danger and when Zambians hear a gun shot, they run towards the scene.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwansa: This is because we have never known war. We do not understand that when a gun goes off, what comes out of that gun is death and we need to run away from it. We need to request our brothers and sisters, who understand these things to sometimes take sessions with us to teach us how to ensure that we keep ourselves safe and secure. They can help us and we need to utilise their knowledge in such matters.

Even more important, however, even those of us who are not in the military must have some rudiments of knowledge of how to defend our country. In most developed countries, there is always a national army. There are some people who have been trained militarily. They are just there, but in times of war, they are called upon, and within weeks, mobilised to become serious military people.

The problem is that we think that war will never come to Zambia. I do not know where we get this kind of confidence. We must be prepared for eventualities. Our country, like any other, must be ready to protect itself. Maybe we have been taken over by the feeling that our donors will help us every time. This is a mistake. We need to ensure that we are trained. I am very proud to have gone through the Zambia National Service.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: I am very proud indeed. It was tough then, but I went through it. There were days I asked myself why I had finished school and had to suffer in that way. By the time I had done six months training, however, I knew how to survive on my own. I did not need anybody to look after my interests. I was a man as I walked that graduation floor, proud to have been through the military service. Sometimes, stopping from doing some programmes undermines our ability to develop. There is no individual who has gone through the Zambia National Service who depends on someone else.

We are creating a culture of individuals who are all looking to the Government to provide answers to the problems in the country. Which Government will do that? Where? In fact, in developed countries, especially in the Western countries, they want less Government and more freedom for individual citizens to apply their knowledge and ability to develop themselves. In our country, the opposite holds true. We blame the Government if we do not get everything we need. Should the Government bring mealie meal to my house? God forbid! I do not want to be a slave of any Government. I want to buy my own food and to look after my own children. I want them to be proud of their father. We need to begin to question the way we have run our country and begin to pride in the knowledge that we are able, as individuals, to make ends meet if we put our minds to it.

Mr Chairperson, we need to review the possibility of sending our youths to do some kind of military training again.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: I think that we need to review that route.

Mr Chairperson, we are a people who do not know that trouble can start in a very funny way. Once peace is lost, it takes years to recover.

Mr Sikazwe: Ages.

Mr Mwansa: People need to know that we need to keep our peace intact, and that if we lose it, we will pay for it dearly. Once trouble breaks out, you cannot trust anyone, not even a friend. Issues of tribalism come in and those of us who were born from many tribes will be victims. We will be asked why our fathers compromised and married from other tribes. These are the things that people in other countries are going through. 

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.


Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was saying that there was a need to have our youths take some courses in military training to get them disciplined, and that it is also important that we begin to teach ourselves some concepts in patriotism without which our country will always be at risk.

Mr Chairperson, you will agree with me that some statements that we utter about our country are so careless, so callous and dangerous that we risk the very security of our country. There are things that we should never say about our country, especially as relates to the security of this nation. I plead that we get our people to begin to understand something about the security and defence of the country and the risks that those who protect us run on a daily basis. We must do everything possible to ensure that we do not open them to risk unless, it is absolutely necessary.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to say that I have been concerned for years, not only in this Session of Parliament, but earlier when I was part of the MMD. My concern has been that forty-five years down the line, that time, it was forty but now it is forty-five years down the line, but this country does not have a road that runs around its borders. This country is open and susceptible to attacks. If there is an attack in certain areas of Zambia, it would be difficult to help our people because getting there would be virtually impossible.

In terms of peace, the ministry must be empowered with money to begin to make the ring road around Zambia. It is absolutely necessary and an essential that we cannot run away from. How do you expect military men to get into areas in the Western Province across the Zambezi River when there is trouble and it is flooded? There are no roads to get them there. If you go to Chirundu and you face the eastern direction, you are stuck because there will be no road to get you to the Eastern Province. This is our country. Therefore, we must pride in ensuring that things that need to be done no matter how expensive they are, we do them. If not for our benefit now, then for posterity’s sake, we should do them. We should not subject our children to things that we ought to have done and got over with. We need a ring road around Zambia for security purposes. It is therefore, important that the hon. Minister of Defence begins to look into this matter. Can there be one courageous enough to begin this project? Let others come and complete it if that person does not manage to do so in their lifetime or in the time that they are in that ministry.

Sir, let me conclude by talking about one matter which has also been of very serious concern to me. This is a matter of prosecution of the men and women in uniform.

Mr Chairperson, the Defence Act has three parts dedicated to the court martial for the prosecution of men and women in uniform.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: The law is there. If it is inadequate, it can be brought here for amendment so that we do not subject these people to prosecution in public courts.

Sir, let me argue my point from this perspective. The military is different from civilian life. The men in uniform do not live the life that we lead. We can afford to be causal and say what we like, but they cannot. We can insult each other and not respect the leadership, but in the military, you cannot do that. Therefore, there are problems that are peculiar to them. Is it not just right, therefore, that those who understand how they ought to behave as military personnel are the ones who subject these officers to trial and to prosecute and convict them according to the customs and traditions obtaining in the military service.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, when there is a court martial, there is also one Judge of the High Court.

 Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Therefore, it is assured that justice will be done within their system, but this desire to expose everything that we have to everyone else is really worrying me.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: There must be things that are sacrosanct to Zambia and Zambia alone.

 Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, there are secrets that are within the confines of our security people, within the confines of the Defence personnel. It is unacceptable that everything is just exposed.

Sir, I was not and I am to this day not happy that a secret document should come to the public for public consumption. If you think that is democracy then, go to the Western World and learn some lessons. You exposed the tunnels to your own destruction. We have to realise …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Bwalya (Chifubu): Mr Chairperson, I stand to support the vote on this ministry. I would also want to take Hon. Mwansa’s debate as my own.

Sir, in his mission statement, the hon. Minister of Defence stated the fact that the Government is going to equip the Defence Forces. This is a very good move, hon. Minister. It is a very good move in the sense that the equipment that we have now is outdated. As much as we appreciate the modern equipment that you are going to acquire, I would like to advise the hon. Minister, through the Chair, on military cantonments. Most of our military cantonments today are exposed to the public. The last time I debated on the vote on this ministry, I talked about the fencing of our military cantonments. Our military cantonments should be fenced with wall fences so that we do not expose our equipment. To date, I have not seen any of these military cantonments being fenced.

Mr Chairperson, the hon. Minister also talked about the construction of houses. This is very important. Let us make sure that we construct more houses in these military cantonments so that we do not expose our soldiers, especially those who live outside the military cantonments.

 Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: There is a lot of crime because we have allowed our military personnel to live outside the military cantonments. As such, they live with civilians. Therefore, the best way for us to make sure that we reduce these crimes is to bring them together in the military cantonments. I would also like to urge the hon. Minister to make sure that our military personnel are motivated, especially those who live outside the barracks. The housing allowance for military personnel is too small and most of them cannot afford to pay rentals at K800,000 to K1 million per month.

On the issue of television licence fee, I would like to say that the men and women who live outside the barracks pay these fees twice. On the payslip, it will be showing television licence fee and on the ZESCO bill, there will also be a deduction for a television licence. Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister to look into this issue urgently.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to take this opportunity to say that most of us in the House risk our peace. Some hon. Members in this House have made some careless statements such as, “One day the people of Zambia will rise.” What will the people of Zambia rise to do?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, let me tell them that when the people of Zambia rise, none of us will be spared.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, I would like to urge all the hon. Members who like making this careless statement to stop it.

Hon. Members: Hamududu!

Mr Hamududu: That is a new point.

Mr Bwalya: Mr Chairperson, with these few remarks, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musonda (Chitambo): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to support the budget for this important ministry.

Mr Chairperson, I want to say something about the important and viable industry which this working Government has given its attention. As one of the hon. Members on your left said in one of the debates, we should be thankful when things go our way. I am referring to MERCO, a viable industry in Serenje. I said that this company was almost crippling in the recent past. MERCO makes desks, but has now diversified into supplying ammunition to the Zambia Police Service, Zambia National Service and even to the army.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to proceed along those lines in this august House, bearing in mind that the whole country is listening? Would he not be advised to deal with issues other than the ones to do with the location of certain industries?

The Deputy Chairperson: A number of speakers have referred to this issue, but being a layperson myself in this area, I would like to advise Dr Musonda to skate around that issue by moving to another point as advised.

Dr Musonda: Mr Chairperson, I will take the advice from the point of order and would like to say that it was not my intention to proceed that way.

Mr Chairperson, I want to say that some industries, which were almost crippling, have received attention and I wanted to thank the hon. Minister for reviving this industry. I would like to mention that the industries which have been revived are helping other ministries such as Education in terms of the production of desks.

I also mentioned in my maiden speech that the industry needed support and that it should be awarded a contract so that it is supported in the production of desks for distribution to other provinces.

In conclusion, I just wanted to express my gratitude to this ministry that has revived some industries which are actually helping other ministries in turn.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Mwansa: Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for the opportunity to wind up debate.

I would like to thank all the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate in support of the allocation to the ministry. I also thank Hon. Chimbaka for his kind words on personal emoluments and the fact that we have increased its allocation. The reason is that we are embarking on the exercise to increase the levels of personnel in all the services.

I am also grateful for his observation on the outstanding work of the Defence Forces and their components, especially since the advent of multi-partism. Our Defence Forces personnel have remained loyal to the Government of the day and they will continue to do that.

On our part, we will always try to improve their welfare in terms of accommodation and dress and they seem determined to move decisively on this matter.

I would like to say that my colleague, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, the entire Defence Forces and I are working very closely on the matter of the welfare of our men and women in uniform.

The hon. Member for Chifunabuli (Mr Mwansa) debated the issue of patriotism and the reintroduction of the National Service Programme. Certainly, this can be examined, but we have to look at the question of resources and work plan for these are required to be done before we can reintroduce the programme. Nevertheless, it is a point we have taken note of and we will consider it.

Mr Chairperson, the Engineering Squadron is a very important wing of the army. We do not have Bailey bridges, but if someone goes ahead and procures them, we can mount or assemble them, but we do not get them. Recently, this wing moved into Siavonga to retrieve a broken down truck on the river and before that, they were at the Maamba Mine to remove debris, following an accident there. Therefore, it is a very active wing and we will continue supporting the engineering call.

Mr Chairperson, on the question of research, I agree with you, Hon. Mwansa, because military research is a source of many civil and military wear that we use in our homes and it is our intention to support research and development in the Defence Forces.

Hon. Bwalya, I thank you very much for your concern about fencing. This is on going.  We have started fencing some of the cantonments and we will continue with that exercise.

On the issue of housing, we are moving very decisively, as I said earlier. It is important that the men and women who have dedicated their lives to the service of the country are availed dedicated services in the form of health, accommodation and education. We are taking the welfare of our men and women in uniform very seriously.

I thank you, Sir.

VOTE 77/01 – (Ministry of Defence – Headquarters – K79,323,333,525).

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 12 – Loan Revolving Fund – K100,000,000. I wonder why it has been increased because, being a revolving fund, there is still some money in the account. On Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 20 – Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign – K25,000,000, this is a new activity I am sure it will need more facilities. Therefore, I do not believe that this money is enough. On Programme 3, Activity 05 – ZamCapital – K1,200,000,000, I would like to find out why this activity has been increased by 100 per cent because ZamCapital is supposed to be an income-generating institution.

The Deputy Minister of Defence (Dr Kazonga): Mr Chairperson, on Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 12 – Loan Revolving Fund – K100,000,000, the provision caters for payment of household and car loans to civilian and military staff as a means of motivating the staff. The increase is due to outstanding loan applications. On Unit 1, Programme 2, Activity 20 – Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign – K25,000,000, this is a new activity for the expenses that will be incurred, as we re-launch the Make Zambia Clean and Healthy Campaign Programme. However, we would have allocated more than the K25,000,000, but because of the limitations in the resource envelope, that is the amount that could be provided. Then, on Programme 3, Activity 05 – ZamCapital – K1,200,000,000, the increase is due to the recapitalisation exercise that the ministry is embarking on for 2010.

I thank you, Sir.

Vote 77/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/04 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/06 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 77/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 80 – (Ministry of Education – K3,250,450,878,876)

The Minister of Education (Ms Siliya): Mr Chairperson, I wish to thank you for according me this opportunity to discuss the estimates of expenditure for the Ministry of Education for 2010. The ministry has a budget provision of K3,250,450,878,876 compared to K2,777,571,479,070 in 2009. This represents an increase of 17 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, the mission statement of my ministry is:

“To enable and provide an education system that will meet the needs of Zambia and its people.”

The mission statement is anchored on the vision of the ministry which is;

“To provide quality life-long education for all which is accessible, inclusive and relevant to individual, national and global needs and values.

My ministry has put in place policies and programmes which are also within the framework of the Fifth National Development Plan (FNDP). Our focus is to ensure that we achieve quality learning at all levels of education from early childhood care, development and education, basic, high school, literacy and tertiary education.

Mr Chairperson, the policy of my ministry, “Educating our Future”, is based on access, equity, quality, efficiency, effectiveness, transparency and accountability. We aim to:

(a) create learning opportunities at all sub-sectors;

(b) enrol all eligible school-age children in grade 1 and retain them in school until they complete the basic education cycle;

(c) ensure that all our learning institutions are inclusive of all learners. As a ministry, we will continue giving special attention to girls, the vulnerable children with special education needs and those in hard-to-reach areas;

(d) ensure equitable participation of girls and boys at all levels of the education system in order to minimise school dropout rates;

(e) ensure improvement in learning achievement at all levels;

(f) maximise benefits of the educational investment; and

(g)  enhance integrity and credibility in the management and delivery of education.

Mr Chairperson, the vision, policy goals and strategic objectives of the education sector are a reflection of the Government’s commitment to education development in the country. We believe that education is a passport out of poverty. This is because education empowers people to be proactive, to control their destiny and broaden their economic and social opportunities.

Mr Speaker, allow me to inform this House that my ministry remains committed to achieving the targets set out in FNDP. Some notable achievements in my ministry that have contributed towards achieving FNDP include the following:

We have constructed 1,500 basic school classrooms in 2008. In 2009, we have plans for 2,500 basic school classrooms and 280 teachers’ houses at the cost of K188 billion using the community mode and this is expected to be completed by the end of this year. In addition, the 2,500 classrooms will result in the creation of additional places in schools. The new classrooms and schools are built within walking distances, thereby making it possible for more and more children to access education.

We have also recruited and deployed 20,000 teachers. Since 2006, 5,000 teachers have been recruited every year.

The teacher attrition rate, through interventions such as institutionalisation of the HIV/AIDS work policy and staff retention schemes, has reduced. In order to improve the quality of education, my ministry provided K48 billion for the procurement of 85,714 desks.

Mr Chairperson, the following are the priority areas for my ministry in 2010:

Policy Review

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that in September this year, we begun the review of the current policy which is thirteen years old. In 2010, we will intensify the policy review process and formulate a new policy anchored on the Vision 2030.

Broadening Access and Participation

Mr Chairperson, the ministry is aiming at attaining education for all through increased enrolments which will be achieved by constructing new classrooms, schools and the expansion and rehabilitation of existing ones. Classrooms and schools will continue being built within walking distance.

The ministry will continue implementing the policy of enrolling all seven to ten-year olds into Grade 1. This is in order to meet the Millennium Development Goal (MDG) number two which is to achieve universal primary education by 2015.

Mr Chairperson, in the 2010 Budget, my ministry has provided K196 billion for the construction of basic school classrooms nationwide. At the high school level, a total of K230 billion has been provided to continue with the construction of 45 high schools. The new high schools will help to absorb more pupils with full Grade 9 certificates. This is in line with the new policy of selecting all Grade 9s with full certificates.

Mr Chairperson, at the tertiary level, a total of K43 billion has been provided for the construction of new students’ hostels, libraries, lecture theatres and staff houses. These are being constructed at Nkrumah College of Education, University of Zambia (UNZA), Copperbelt University (CBU), Mulungushi University, Zambia Institute for Special Education (ZAMISE), Copperbelt Secondary Teachers College and Mulakupikwa in the Northern Province in order to increase access, retention, achievement and quality.

School Health and Nutrition

Mr Chairperson, the nutrition and health status of the children affects participation, access and performance of the learners. This is why my ministry intends to include an additional 480 schools in Northern, Luapula, North-Western and Western provinces in the school-feeding programmes. A total of 960 teachers, 320 health workers and community development officers will be trained in the school, health and nutrition programme respectively. Therefore, a total of K6.7 billion has been provided for the school, health and nutrition programme in the 2010 Budget.

Mr Chairperson, apart from increasing access through the construction of classrooms and schools, my ministry will set up more open and distance learning centres throughout the country where learners who cannot attend the regular classes will learn from.

In addition, the ministry has developed a draft policy on youth and adult literacy which awaits submission for approval by the Cabinet in 2010. The approved policy will facilitate a well coordinated effort towards alternative modes of education provision. It will also increase opportunities for those youths and adults who have not had access to formal education.

Further, my ministry is in the process of presenting the Draft Information and Communication Technology (ICT) Policy in education for approval by Cabinet. Once approved, the policy will guide the integration of ICT in the teaching and learning processes at all levels of the education system. My ministry recognises the importance of ICT in education and for this reason, Zambia will host the 2010 e-learning Africa Conference in May, 2010 in Lusaka. This conference is expected to be attended by more than 1,300 participants from all over the world.

Mr Chairperson, in order to improve efficiency and effectiveness at the district level, the ministry will continue to construct District Education Board Secretaries (DEBS) offices and also connect more DEBS offices to the ministry’s information system.

Improving Quality

Mr Chairperson, my ministry has made a provision of K38.5 billion for the procurement of 100,000 desks in 2010 to further improve the environment under which our children learn.

Mr Chairperson, in 2010, my ministry will recruit 2,500 teachers at a cost of K22.5 billion as provided for in the Budget. In order to attend to the teachers’ welfare, a sum of K31.8 billion has been allocated to meet teachers’ outstanding bills such as settling in allowance, leave travel and terminal benefits.

Curriculum Development and Education Materials

Mr Chairperson, the ministry will continue with its goal of improving the quality and relevance of education through the design of a comprehensive and diversified curriculum that is interlinked throughout all the education levels. The ministry will pay particular attention to ensuring that the revised curriculum is sufficiently responsive by including the emerging issues; ICT, entrepreneurship, practical skills, career path lessons, life skills and localisation of the curriculum. This is intended to empower the local communities to design and develop a curriculum that is relevant and responsive to local needs.

Mr Chairperson, the provision of educational materials is critical in determining the quality of education. Therefore, K21.5 billion has been provided for the procurement of textbooks in 2010.

My ministry will continue the construction of infrastructure at high institutions of learning such as Nkrumah College of Education and Copperbelt Secondary Teachers College of Education (COSETCO) and public universities.

You may also wish to know that the evaluation process by the Ministerial Tender Committee on Mulakupikwa has been completed. In 2010, the ministry has, therefore, provided by K5 billion towards infrastructure development at Mulakupikwa.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Ms Siliya: Once completed, the college will train high school teachers of mathematics, science, information technology studies and practical subjects.

In order to enhance professionalism of our teachers and head teachers, my ministry has, with effect from 2009, reverted the National In-service Teachers College (NISTCOL) in Chalimbana to offering in-service and management courses. My ministry is also upgrading teacher qualifications through alternative modes of education delivery such as distance learning.

Equity Considerations

Equity is a major principle that emphasises the need to ensure that distribution and utilisation of resources in education are fairly targeted in order to reach the disadvantaged groups in society. The ministry is ensuring that there is equitable access to all levels of education, by paying special attention to the needs of the girls, orphans, vulnerable children, children with special education needs and those that are affected and infected with HIV/AIDS. In order to allow them to equitably enjoy the rights and opportunities that are offered by education, the ministry has provided K7.4 billion towards bursaries. In addition, the ministry is developing an effective mechanism to identify learners requiring bursary support.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to conclude by stating that quality education is a prerequisite for the development of our nation. My Government will continue to respond positively to the education needs of our people.

I take this opportunity to also thank our co-operating partners for their continued support to the education agenda of this Government as reflected by their budgetary contributions to the Ministry of Education. I also wish to compliment the civil society and community at large for their participation in the education sector. I also applaud the 77,000 teachers nationwide who continue to do a good job everyday in moulding the future of this nation by delivering education to our children. Lastly, I call upon the families at large to rededicate themselves to the education of our children.

Mr Chairperson, I call upon the hon. Members of the House to support the budget for the Ministry of Education as presented.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Sinyangwe (Matero): I would like to commend the hon. Minister of Education for the good works that are happening in the ministry. If we have to fight poverty in the country, education is key to development. I also commend the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for allocating, at least, more funds to the Ministry of Education than the last time, but we still need more. We should strive to get even 40 per cent of our National Budget to go to education.

Today, I am going to talk about the Directorate of Distance Education in the Ministry of Education. While we are building classrooms in schools, it will be a very big mistake if we ignore distance education. It does not matter what we do, but it will be very difficult for us to have all the people who want education (adults and children) to get it.

Therefore, I urge the hon. Minister to put together distance education programmes that will benefit the teachers, adults and children who do not have the chance to go to school. In the rural areas, we have many people who would benefit from distance education.

Sir, when I look at the funding to distance education, it makes very sad reading. When I was in the Ministry of Education, I initiated a programme known as Learning at Taonga Market. This programme came up as a result of the many out-of-school youths whom we saw in the streets and markets. This included the children who were going with their parents to sell things everyday and were not accorded an opportunity to go to school and also the ones who were in areas where there were inadequate teachers. We thought it would help these children because the programmes were written in the form of personalised instructions. You only needed a mentor to take the children through the lessons. We helped to train the mentors and produced the mentor’s guides and did a lot of monitoring to help them do the right thing.

Sir, I have seen in this budget K2 million being allocated to monitoring in provinces and the development of natural resources has been allocated K2 million while the training of mentors has also received K2 million. Therefore, one would wonders how many mentors we are going to train out of the K2 million in a province where we have many centres. I think, hon. Minister, we should make sure that we do this very effectively. I am sure that since the hon. Minister has a media background, she is aware that we cannot underrate the power of the media. The power of the media can also be utilised in the education sector.

In other countries they use the media very effectively and if I recall very well, we are pioneers in this part of Africa in education broadcasting. We started as early as 1959, under the then Zambia Broadcasting Services, from which Television Zambia emanated. We used to broadcast in the morning and then ZBS would start broadcasting in the afternoon. However, what we are seeing is the opposite. The people in the olden days were performing better than us. This is because we treat distance education as a by the way. I say so because of the way it is treated in the Budget. It is like a just by the way activity. We should not do that. Distance education can never be thrown out of the window.

Sir, we have schools where we do not have adequate laboratories. I am sure we could produce video programmes where experiments could done so that children are able to watch in a classroom and then go along with the teacher. This is very ideal in schools where there are not enough science teachers. When are we going to see to it that education via television, which is based in Kitwe, is revived? Are we going to see it die and yet there are offices, machines and people there? I am not seeing anything that is coming on television which is part of education broadcasting. What are our people doing there?

Learning on television is good because the video can bring the outside world into the classroom. Our children in the rural areas would be able to see where Lusaka, Zimbabwe, America is and so forth. That is how strong the power of the media is. However, what we are seeing now are the expenses at the national broadcasting corporation increasing, but when it comes to educational programmes, the expenditure is frightening.

Mr Chairperson, I think when we are making laws for our country, we should also make laws that we will promote education.

In other countries each broadcasting station that comes along devotes a certain percentage of its broadcasting time to educational programmes, but what are we seeing? We are seeing irrelevant programmes on television. When they do not have programmes on a radio, a lot of music is played. We have so many things that we could educate our people on.

The other point that I have observed regarding Learning at Taonga Market is that they have started using it in schools which is fine, but what I would want to emphasise is that a radio cannot replace a classroom teacher. It is just an aid like a chalk and map. The radio should be used as an aid. However, some teachers think that since the pupils are listening to a radio programme for instance for a Grade 5 class, they can walk out of the classroom, thinking the radio is going to teach them. That is not the way we use a radio.

Secondly, we should have programmes that will supplement learning in a classroom. The Taonga Market Programmes were meant for out-of-school children. If the Ministry of Education wants to use such programmes in schools, let it produce programmes that will be targeted at pupils in classrooms. Such programmes would be beneficial. When I was at school, I learnt from both the television and radio. A lot of things that came out of radio and television were very good.

The other issue is on the curriculum, I would like to commend the ministry for coming up with the curriculum symposium because we need to have an input in the curriculum. Let us not start the putting together of the curriculum from the top, let it start from the base where people are. I have said this time and again. We should not say that we are developing the curriculum. What are we developing? We should just reform it because we have seen that it is the curriculum that makes the people of a country move forward. For as long as we continue changing here and there, we are not going to advance. I heard the hon. Minister in her speech saying that we would want to have life-long learning programmes. Do we have the facilities for such programmes? We start good things which we throw out at the end.

I remember the Finnish International Development Agency (FINNIDA) bought equipment which the children used to learn skills in carpentry and others fields, but this programme just disappeared and we have forgotten about it. It is high time we went back to these skills because in future the white collar jobs will not be available.

We need to empower our children so that when they leave school, they can lead a meaningful life on their own. The children need to be able to find something to do instead of them just sitting and crying for help and jobs.

Mr Chairperson, although we had a very good policy, changing and reviewing it for the better is a very good move. I commend the Government for that.

As regards high schools, we should continue building them because we need them. There was a time when there was a policy in the ministry to build basic schools and we built many of them. Now what we have is a pyramid, we have so many basic schools, but very few high schools. Therefore, I would want to urge the ministry to continue with the building of high schools. At the same time, I would like to thank the co-operating partners who have been very cardinal to the work of the Ministry of Education. They have done a lot, but once they come like they came in Learning at Taonga Market, they will, at some point, go away, but we should not kill the programme.

Sir, I visited the Learning at Taonga Market  Project a few days ago and found that they do not even have a vehicle, therefore I wonder how they are going to monitor the programme because a programme like that needs a lot of monitoring and assistance. When I was working for the Ministry of Education, wind radios with solar panels were bought because we realised that there could not be power in the rural areas. I urge the Government to buy these so that we give education to everybody if we are going to achieve the Millennium Development Goal of achieving basic education by 2015.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Misapa (Mporokoso): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this chance to talk about the development of this nation in education.

In the first place, Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the Government and the hon. Minister for the development that has been done within a very short period in the ministry. Actually, what is good should be praised. Thank you very much. However, I have one problem. We all know that the Government spends a lot of money in training science teachers. The Government recruits students every year to enter universities to train in sciences and they graduate, but disappointingly, in the schools in the provinces, there are very few science degree holders. For instance, I researched and learned that there was only one science degree teacher in the Northern Province last year, but another one was recruited this year. Now, are we going to continue like this? Where do these graduates go after training? I am sure most of them leave the country because we have not come up with a special law to bond those who complete training. I appeal to the hon. Minister to see how they can come up with some laws so that we retain our graduates. I think it would be better if they are bonded for ten years and, thereafter, they can leave for greener pastures. In that way, they can also contribute to the welfare of this nation.

Mr Chairperson, whilst emphasising the lack of science teachers, let me say that it is not easy to train a science teacher. Regarding development, we cannot develop without science-oriented students. This does not only require teachers, but others across the board like doctors, agriculturists, engineers and so on. It is on this matter that I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister of Education to, probably, come up with a deliberate policy such as they did in India some years back. I know that this morning we had a professor who was propounding on climate change. I am sure he is an Indian.


Mr Misapa: It is because our friends actually came up with a deliberate policy to fund the science sector for, probably, a ten-year period so that they produce more science-oriented people who could help in the running of industries and research centres. If we work at our current level, probably, ten years from now, we shall have no qualified teachers to teach the Grades 1 and 2. The background is very important. In advanced countries, graduates teach Grade 1. This is because the foundation is very important. All of us know this, hence my appeal to the hon. Minister to come up with a deliberate policy so that we produce more science-oriented people in all sectors.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to dwell on the issue of language in Zambia. Are we going to continue making English a compulsory subject for people who are science oriented? Are we not looking at it as a hindering factor? In China, people speak Chinese and in Japan, they speak Japanese, but they have produced very powerful scientists and so the same should be done here in Zambia. Therefore, I propose that the hon. Minister changes the trend because, maybe, that is why we have failed to produce a lot of science teachers. It may be as a result of sticking to English as the medium of instruction. Probably, if we left it open and used some vernacular languages, children would do better in the sciences and even other subjects, as my friends are commenting.

Hon. Government Members: Even other subjects.

Mr Misapa: Thank you.

Mr Chairperson, I have checked all the figures for last year in terms of funding and most of them actually have been increased. I thank the Government and the hon. Minister for this, but the University of Zambia in Lusaka and Copperbelt University in Kitwe are facing problems with regard to arrears that have accrued for sometime. The money that has been provided to offset the arrears is not enough. I, again, appeal to the Government to consider increasing the money to offset the arrears at these two universities. If an institution has a lot of debts, it faces problems in the smooth running of the institution.

Lastly, I would also like to put Mporokoso in this debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Misapa: Mr Chairperson, Mporokoso is a big district. We are fortunate that the Government has given us two high schools and we are thankful.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Misapa: We also humbly request the Government to consider providing mattresses at Mporokoso High School and the newly-opened Kalabwe High School, which was built for us by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR). Our Children in those schools have no mattresses. It is a humble request to this able Government so that our children can sleep comfortably.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice on the vote for the Ministry of Education.

Mr Chairperson, I will be brief because most of my areas of concern have been covered by Hon. Sinyangwe and Hon. Misapa. Sir, allow me, however, to also add a few more of my concerns.

Firstly, I would like to thank the hon. Minister of Education for continuing with the programmes that were started by her colleague, Hon. Lungwangwa. In my constituency in particular, most of the schools that were started are almost ready, while others are still under construction. I urge her to continue because if these schools are not completed, we will have a big problem.

Mr Chairperson, I also want to talk about the issue of the cut-off point at Grade 9. While I appreciate that every child must complete school, I think that we have lowered the standards. I got shocked last year that nearly everyone who sat for the Grade 9 Examinations in my family, including those whose capacity I doubted, made it to Grade 10 and my bill rose by 100 per cent.


Mr Mubika: They are following your footsteps.

Mr Sing’ombe: Although that was a good thing, the standards of some them are very low. I was forced to ask one of my nephews to go back to grade 10 this year for lack of good performance. All this can be attributed to the cut-off point at the Grade 9 level.

Sir, we also do not have the corresponding infrastructure. What we see are a lot of pupils. Maybe, the ratio has risen too high, making it very difficult for teachers to cope with work. We have compromised the standards.

Mr Chairperson, another issue I would like to talk about is that of separating spouses. The Ministry of Education trains people up to the age of thirty-five years. You cannot expect everyone who goes to college at the age of thirty-five to be single. Most of them are married at that age. However, couples are separated at the point of posting. I do not think that is the best way to fight HIV/AIDS in this country.

Ms Cifire: Abstinence.

Mr Sing’ombe: We have actually broken homes by sending husbands to Kasama and wives to Dundumwezi’s Jonathan Sim High School. This makes it difficult for these people to manage their children.

Sir, we also have not provided enough desks in our schools. If we are to go round in most of our schools, we will discover that most of our pupils sit on the floor. I do not think that this is the best way to educate our children. They must be taught properly and not sit on dust. This is a health hazard for both the teachers and the pupils.

Mr Chairperson, I visited a school where the teacher told me that at break time, he has to make sure that he goes away before the pupils come out because they sit on the floor and the moment they stand up, the whole school is full of dust.

Hon. Member: The whole school?

Mr Sing’ombe:  Yes, the whole school and not just the classroom.


Mr Sing’ombe: Pupils sit on the floor.

Hon. Member: The whole school is polluted.

Mr Sing’ombe: Yes, the whole school is polluted. Thank you very much.


Mr Sing’ombe: Mr Chairperson, I would also like to ask the hon. Minister to consider scrapping the fees for pupils from Grade 1 up to Grade 12. It does not pay to only teach a child from Grade 1 to Grade 7 for free. Normally, at Grade 7, pupils are about twelve to fourteen years old. What do you expect a child to do when he or she drops out of school at Grade 7 due to the failure by the parents to pay for them to go to Grade 8 or 10? They cannot even get married at this age. They are under age. This Government is now forcing parents to marry off their daughters because they cannot keep them for so many years and cannot manage to pay their school fees. Please, consider scrapping off fees up to Grade 12. After Grade 12, they can do things like carpentry and metal work and look after themselves. This cannot happen at Grade 7.

Sir, I would like to bring to the attention of the hon. Minister the issue of community schools. Hon. Misapa debated that in developed countries, graduate teachers teach Grade 1s but, today, we have untrained teachers in our community schools. We must set standards. If we are not able to provide teachers, it does not augur well to open community schools.

In the early 1970s when I started my Grade 1 …


Mr Sing’ombe: … I know that Hon. Mabenga was doing his Grade 12.


Mr Sing’ombe: We were taught by headmasters or senior school teachers. We no longer see this in our schools. We do not know whether we still have inspectors at the district level because we no longer see them go to inspect schools. We want to see school inspectors in our schools. All of you are here because your teachers were monitored at a monthly or quarterly basis. These days, you just deploy teachers in schools and forget.

Mr Chairperson, you can never have a strong building if your foundation is weak. We should ensure that when we send pupils to school, especially lower basic school, they are handled properly.

Sir, when you look at the mushrooming private schools in Zambia, you will notice that this ministry is not doing very fine. This indicates that there is a very big gap. Most parents opt to take their children to private schools because they want to build a better foundation for them. We must ensure that Grade 1 classes are handled by competent teachers. We should not allow a situation where a community school has no teachers because this will affect the foundation of our pupils.

With these few words, Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mrs Musokotwane: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Vote. I will be very brief.

Sir, I would like to request the Ministry of Education to seriously think about incorporating pre-school in the system. Although Hon. Misapa said that Grade 1 is the foundation, I still believe that pre-school is the foundation. If we agree with what Hon. Misapa said, then let us dig our foundation a little deeper so that we accommodate pre-school.

Mr Chairperson, a house without a good foundation will not stand no matter how good the walls are. It will crumble even if you cover its roof with Harvey tiles. However, if the foundation is solid, you will have a strong house. Pre-school is the foundation of the education for any child. Once that is put in place, pupils will have no problems in Grades 7, 9 and at the university level. Please, Hon. Minister of Education, think about this very seriously because it is a very important component of education.

Hon. Sing’ombe commented on an issue which I think he should have propounded very seriously. This is the issue regarding competent teachers to teach a particular a grade. The problem we have now is that teachers are trained to teach Grades 1 to 7 in only three years.

In our days, the first three months of the course were compulsory for everybody. At the end of three months, the college knew that Mrs Musokotwane could teach Grade 1s and Ms Siliya could teach Grade 7s. This is the time you were separated and started specialising. You were told that you would be teaching lower primary or upper primary, respectively. As a result, we were very good teachers because we concentrated on teaching either lower or upper primary pupils.

Today, you want everybody to know how to teach Grades 1 up to 7. This is not working. Is it possible for us to go back to the old methods of specialising? Those that were good Grade 1 teachers at every school where they went, the head teachers new that they qualified as Grade 1 teachers. As a result, the foundation that Hon. Misapa was talking about was very good because the teachers specialised at teaching Grade 1s.

Sir, the other issue regards the subsidising of higher education. Students in higher education always boycott classes, break cars and windows because of inadequate funding. Can the ministry look into this issue very seriously?

Mr Chairperson, your Committee’s report stated that schools cannot even buy chemicals for their laboratories. If the ministry subsidised higher education, these schools would have enough chemicals and equipment for their laboratories. It is possible for the Ministry of Education to buy these chemicals in bulk so that they are distributed to all schools. I believe that if the ministry bought in bulk, it would be cheaper than individual schools buying these chemicals.

Today, schools are finding it expensive to buy these chemicals because they are doing it individually. The ministry is aware of specific subjects that are taught at these schools and knows the type of chemical that each particular school needs. Unless you are not good managers, you know these things and can buy in bulk. Let us help our schools. I know that we can do it. These are the things that used to happen during the days  education was to be considered very important. The ministry bought school laboratory equipment in bulk and distributed materials to all schools. I still believe that we can do the same now.

Mr Chairperson, going back to the issue of subsidising higher education, there are students at the University of Zambia who did not write their final examinations because they did not pay their tuition and examination fees.

 In this House, especially on your left, we have always talked about giving loans to students. Can we not think about taking that route instead of letting a student go for four years and at the end of the programme you tell them that they cannot write the examination because they have not paid? Meanwhile, the Government has already spent a lot of money on this student. Why can we not complete the job? It is possible for us to give them loans so that when they complete their courses, the Government can employ them and start deducting from their salaries instead of students not writing examinations.

Sir, my last point is about Kazungula District. The help to basic schools is only K800 plus million, but the budget for the district is K13.2 billion. K800 million is going into real education while K12 billion has been provided for salaries. Are we not upsetting issues here? To me, if salaries are K12 billion, education should also receive K12 billion. This will enable us attain our Millennium Development Goal on education without problems. Now, out of K13.2 billion, we have allocated K800 million to education and K12 billion to salaries. Hon. Minister, let us think about how we can do these things better.

Hon. Minister, I am aware that you want to build another high school in our area and I would like to thank you very much for that although you are moving at a very slow pace. Can you move as quickly as possible? I also want to commend you for giving us another high school because we have Makunka and Musokotwane high schools in the district. At the end of it all, we are going to have four high schools in our area. Congratulations, but not with the K800 million allocation. We would like to have K12 billion also allocated to basic schools, especially that we are now going to have high schools.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Minister of Lands (Mr Mabenga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you very much for affording me this opportunity to add a word or two to the debate on the Vote on the Floor of the House.

From the outset, I would like to debate on a very important statement that the hon. Minister mentioned when she said that quality education is a prerequisite for development. Indeed, quality education is a prerequisite for development.

Mr Chairperson, from the hon. Minister’s statement, I realise that there has been an increase of 17 per cent to last year’s budget. This is very good and it is a clear testimony that this Government is committed to the cause of quality education.

Mr Chairperson, I want to emphasise on literacy. I have a very big and soft spot for literacy because I believe very strongly that literacy does not just mean one plus one equals two, how to spell the word, “go” or how to construct a sentence. It goes much further than that. In fact, literacy goes to be interpreted into factional literacy. Factional literacy prepares the child and the leaner for the wider aspects of life.

Sir, you will recall that a year or two ago, literacy was emphasised in the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. I am glad that it has been taken to the Ministry of Education because, after all, that is where you get the line of education, beginning from pre-school, basic education and up the line. It is good that this Government keeps on improving at every stage to ensure that its population receives the best it can from what it plans in the education sector.

Sir, I want to commend the Government for ensuring that apart from ordinary literacy, it is turning to ensure that learners are exposed to the Information and Communication Technology (ICT) programmes. These are very important programmes because the world has gone this way and so, Zambia cannot remain behind. It has to move with the rest of the world.

Mr Chairperson, I recall that a few years ago, there was a project, which I believe is now in the Ministry of Education. This project was to work together with the Commonwealth of Learning. The Commonwealth of Learning was able to work very well, at that time, with the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services and now, I believe, with the Ministry of Education. I do have words by Paulo Fera. These ideas are being translated very well by this Government in the use of the various pieces of apparatus that are used in teaching our people, especially those that go into adult education learning. I remember this project working very well in Katete, Kabwe and also in Monze. I am very sure that there are efforts to ensure that these collaborative efforts become a good example and help our population as we develop as a country.

Mr Chairperson, I also note with satisfaction the use of distance education. This is very vital and as I come to my next point, I will compare distance and open education.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)




(Progress reported)


The House adjourned at 1957 hours until 0900 hours on Wednesday, 20th October, 2009.