DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE THIRD SESSION OF THE TENTH ASSEMBLY

Friday, 27th March, 2009

The House met at 0900 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________

ANNOUNCEMENT BY MR SPEAKER

SESSIONAL COMMITTEES ─ MEMBERSHIP

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, in accordance with Standing Order No. 131 (2), the following changes have been made to the composition of the following Committees:

1. Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services:
 Reverend G. Z. Nyirongo, MP, has been replaced by Hon. H. I. Mwanza, MP.

2. Committee on Energy, Environment and Tourism:
 Hon. A. Mbewe, MP, has been replaced by Mr. J. Shakafuswa, MP.

3. Committee of Local Governance, Housing and Chief’s Affairs:
 Hon. A. Mbewe, MP, has been replaced by Mr K. Kakusa, MP.

4. Committee on National Security and Foreign Affairs:
 Hon. H. L. Imasiku, MP, has been replaced by Mr F. R. Tembo, MP.

5. Committee on Health, Community Development and Social Welfare:
 Hon. H. L. Imasiku, MP, has been replaced by Mr. L. K. Chibombamilimo, MP.

I thank you.

_________

HIS HONOUR THE VICE-PRESIDENT’S QUESTION TIME

Mr Mooya (Moomba): Sir, a Bill on the Public Private Partnership (PPP) legal framework has not been presented to the House. When the President officiated at the Ceremonial Opening of Parliament, he lobbied for the support of such a Bill. Similarly, the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning did the same in his Budget speech. To me, that showed a sense of urgency, but today we are adjourning and a Bill with regard to this issue has not been presented. I was not comfortable when the Vice-President said that the Kasumbalesa Memorandum of Understanding had been signed without legal backing. There is confusion relating to single sourcing and unsolicited bids. When is this Bill coming to Parliament so as to avoid the free- for- all kind of scenario that is obtaining at the moment?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, this will give me an opportunity to brief hon. Members on what we are doing in drafting legislation. Indeed, the Government has approved the PPP Policy which requires the Government to put the necessary legal framework in place. I can confirm that this particular legislation is being drafted at the Ministry of Justice.

Now, the hon. Member has talked about single sourcing and the lack of a legal framework, but I think we have adequate laws which deal with matters of procurement. Even before we put that kind of legal framework in place, there are a lot of other legal provisions which we can rely upon. All that I can say is that by the time we come for the June/July Session, in which we deal with legislation in this House, we shall present that important piece of legislation. It is long over due.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from His Honour the Vice-President when the civil servants who went on voluntary separation from 1997 to 2002 as a result of the Highly Indebted Poor Country (HIPC) programme will be paid their terminal benefits as this has not been done.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I know that the matter the hon. Member is referring to went through the legal process. The Government is also concerned that civil servants who served the Public Service diligently have not been paid. In this year’s Budget, we have included a sum of K42 billion to address some of these problems. Every year we include money in the Budget for payment of retirees.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, it has been reported that about 90 per cent of refugees at Mayukwayukwa Refugee Camp are resisting to be repatriated to Angola citing that they have been in this country for over forty-three years and many are married to Zambians. What is the Government doing to ensure that these people who have lived in this country for so long are given a Zambian status, especially, that some of them are our mulamus [in-laws]? 

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Declare interest.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I have been in this House long enough to answer that question. I remember that during the first five year term I served in this House, we had presented legislation with regard to addressing some of the issues which the hon. Member has alluded to.

We are conscious of the fact that Zambia is a signatory to certain international conventions which require a state which is looking after refugees to put in place certain legal mechanisms to try and address issues of refugees and their status in a country.

In that particular Bill, we had proposed that refugees who have lived in this country, as per international conventions, should be granted some status and even citizenship where the situation merits. That particular Bill unfortunately, met a lot of resistance at that time. I do not know what the reaction would be this time …

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … but you are saying you cannot accept that and yet, you are the same people who say that Zambia should domesticate international conventions to which it is a party. Therefore, you can see that it also proves our point that, it is not all conventions that should be domesticated. As we are domesticating conventions, we have to take into account national interest and circumstances in Zambia.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Speaker, in view of the fact that the Government has lost  a  friendly question from Hon. Mbewe, I think I will ask a friendly one this time.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Speaker, in 2007, during the floods, the Vice-President then went and visited the Western Province to access the damage. The floods this year are, most certainly, the worst since 1948. Therefore, they qualify to be one in a fifty-year flood and have caused devastation in Western Province. When is the Vice-President or the President, indeed, going to visit Western Province to access the damage and the type of help that is required?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, last week on Friday, 20th February, 2009, when the same question was asked, I said that I sent an advance team to go and survey the area and prepare for my going there. I can confirm that next week, I will be going to Western Province and the hon. Member of Parliament for Luena should be in his constituency to, at least, receive me at the airport.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: So, I can confirm that we are concerned about the devastation which has been caused by the floods in Western Province. Indeed, this will give me an opportunity to go and visit the province. I have never been to Mongu unfortunately, but this time, I intend to go and see the beautiful plains of Western Province.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr C. K. B.  Banda S.C (Chasefu): Mr Speaker may I know what this Government is going to do to help the suffering of the people in Chasefu Constituency whose houses have been burnt down as a result of a dispute over witchcraft. Eighteen households have been affected. What is this Government going to do to help them?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I am not sure whether the mandate of disaster management extends to that kind of situation, but as a Government, of course, the issue of witchcraft is a worrying factor. Throughout the country, witchcraft is practiced and we have laws which, of course, deal with issues of that nature. We should discourage our people from taking the law into their own hands. Burning of houses is a criminal offence.

You have just brought it to my attention, please give us further details so that we can follow up that very serious matter which you have raised.

I thank you, Sir.

Mrs Phiri (Munali): Mr Speaker, it was on the 10th of April, 2005 when the country witnessed the worst accident involving school children and I remember the then President of the Republic of Zambia, the late President Levy Mwanawasa, gave a directive to the Ministry of Education (MoE) to stop school authorities from using tracks or vans to ferry their students. I would like to find out from you what has happened to the directive because we have continued witnessing these accidents as the one which happened in Luangwa a few weeks ago.

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, since the hon. Member says there was a directive to that effect, please refresh my memory and let me have some details on it so that I can look into that matter. Indeed, we are concerned about the welfare of our school children. If you give details, we will look into it to see how such issues can be addressed.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the Vice-President what the position at Mopani Copper Mines is. They announced that they were going to close operations in Mufulira and Kitwe and the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development went there to try and find out what exactly was on the ground. May we know from the Vice-President what the situation is?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that the hardworking hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development has engaged the management of Mopani and this is a matter which is live and being discussed so that we can find the way forward. There are issues to do with the future of the mine. That is, whether the mine should be put on care and maintenance, whether the Government should take over or whether a new equity partner should come in. As regards issues to do with the welfare of employees, as a Government, we are concerned about maintaining jobs in the mining sector. The matter is active engagement between the Ministry of Mines and Minerals Development and the management of Mopani and eventually the nation will be informed on what we are going to do about this problem.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, yesterday, in Kafue, the union of the Nitrogen Chemicals of Zambia (NCZ) led by a Mr Munsanje staged a peaceful demonstration for the Government to take a position on that institution. We are also informed that the Government intends to spend K5 billion for recapitalisation of the same institution and K3.7 billion was due to be released to deal with the problems that the institution is facing. The question is: is this amount of money, the K8.5 billion, sufficient to deal with all the problems and anxieties of the said institution?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, indeed, the K8.1 billion is not sufficient to deal with all the problems. In the meantime and as a caring Government, we know that our citizens, the employees there, are suffering. We have had to, in the interim, take these measures and pay their salary arrears. We shall also pump in K5 billion to start the recapitalisation process.

However, Cabinet is looking into a long-term solution for NCZ and we are considering various options including recapitalisation or finding an equity partner. Therefore, we are analysing all these options and as soon as we come to a reasonable conclusion on it, the nation will be informed so that we can resolve this outstanding issue.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Speaker, the world over, governments, non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and civil society organisations over the last week or so have been engaged in the campaign on climate change which culminates tomorrow. In Zambia, civil society organisations and NGOs are being shepherded by the First Republican President. What is the Government doing to contribute to that very important climate change campaign? Will Parliament, through the Office of the Vice-President, also be involved in that very phenomenal campaign?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, we are always involved in such campaigns and we have an outstanding policy. We have structures in place which address issues of climate change. I can confirm that is a very important activity in which Government will obviously participate.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, it is a well known fact that close to 10,000 jobs in the mining sector on the Copperbelt have been lost. What short-term mitigation is being put in place for those miners that have lost their jobs? What mechanism is being put in place to monitor the impact on the job losses?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I said that we are negotiating with mining companies to try and see how this particular phenomenon can be mitigated. However, as you have seen, the price of copper has been going up and some of the mining companies are changing their policies.

When we introduce policies or legislations in this House which are meant to create jobs such as the Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, under which we are doing away with Windfall Tax, some hon. Members oppose well meaning measures such as these. There are various measures and some are in the budget which we have announced to try and diversify the economy and mitigate some of these job losses.

We are doing everything possible and where we are losing jobs or mines are closing, we will look for equity partners. There are several other companies from outside, especially foreign investors who are still willing to invest in Zambia and create jobs. This is a continuing process and we are monitoring what is happening, but there are signs pointing in the direction of the world economy recovery.

Thank you, Sir,

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola): Mr Speaker, last year, it cost a company K1 billion to construct one kilometre of a road, but we are now told it is K6 billion. What has Government put in place to ensure that the Zimba/Livingstone Road is completed considering the cost has gone up?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, on the Zimba/Livingstone Road, I think, the Government has signed agreements to raise money. In fact, this particular project is in the budget. We are conscious of the fact that Livingstone is our tourist town and we value the facilities, which must accessible, there. Therefore, this road is being given priority and, I think, they are working on it right now. I am aware and hope that it will be completed as quickly as possible so that tourists can flock to Livingstone.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Sichamba (Isoka West): Mr Speaker, the issue of some companies continuing to charge in dollars has become rampant, for example, MultiChoice Zambia Limited. What is Government policy on this issue?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, the policy of Government is that we should charge for goods and services in our local currency, the kwacha. Nevertheless, of course, there are some companies which may still be charging in dollars. We are against dollarisation of the economy and we will put in place necessary regulations to ensure that this trend is not encouraged, but discouraged.

Thank you, Sir.

Mr Chisanga (Mkushi South): Mr Speaker, for the sake of the people out there and the hon. Members on your left, I would like His Honour the Vice-President to tell the nation what this working Government is doing in Nansanga Farming Block in Central Province and because of ample time, His Honour the Vice President, with his vast experience, can touch other provinces.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Question!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, that is…

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Indeed, Mr Speaker, that is a friendly question.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Nansanga Farming Block has been on our cards for a long time. It is the policy of the Government to increase food production and, therefore, as a caring Government which is committed to diversifying the economy and increasing on food production, we have budgeted for this project in this year’s budget. What we are going to do is to electrify the area, put up dams and ensure that we win those farmers who maybe interested in opening up farm blocks there. It also fits within the Office of the Vice-President’s policy or programmes on resettlements.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We are doing everything possible to ensure that we construct even bridges because access to this particular area is not easy. We are making preparations to open up Nansanga Farming Block so that we can produce more food on that fertile land.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Speaker, may His Honour the Vice-President shed light on what the Indaba shall address and when it shall be convened?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, I can confirm that we are preparing for the Indaba and are looking at various issues which can be covered. We hope that all hon. Members will participate in this very important national event.

We had a similar event some time back and many of the resolutions that came out of the last indaba with the late President were implemented.

We should encourage ourselves to come together as Zambians and discuss matters which affect us in an atmosphere of peace and dialogue. This is aimed at encouraging dialogue. We will look at issues of the economic meltdown. Any other differences which we may be facing as Zambians can be ironed out at that particular forum.

I remember the last Indaba was organised in a way that we had thematic Committees. Those who are interested in matters of energy, economy or governance and many more areas can participate. We have a lot of experts in this country. If we come together, it is possible to surmount our problems.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Speaker, over the past few months, this Government has been calling rallies and holding press conferences to discuss the issue of the public prosecutor, Mr Mutembo Nchito. I would like to find out why this Government opted to politicise the issue instead of discussing it with the concerned public prosecutor and establish whether he had done anything wrong and what could be done with his contract. Why did this Government decide to politicise this issue instead of letting the Ministry of Justice and the Attorney-General’s office handle it?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, there were people who were making certain presentations to the Government such as petitions. We had to receive some of these petitions. Matters of public interest were raised regarding the use of public resources and procurement of certain loans. Those are the issues which we were looking into. However, as regards the particular position of this particular prosecutor, that will be determined by the Attorney-General and Director of Public Prosecutions Offices.

Having introduced the National Anti-Corruption Policy, we are also looking at the future of the Task Force. We have to consider whether we should proceed with this particular institution. We have not politicised the issue, but were merely reacting to what the people were saying about this particular prosecutor.

I thank you, Sir.

_____________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

208. Mr Hamusonde (Nangoma) asked the Minister of Local Government and Housing whether there were any plans to remove vendors from the corridors and streets of Lusaka City.

The Deputy Minister of Local Government and Housing (Dr Puma): Mr Speaker, I wish to inform this august House that the Government, through my ministry, has plans to remove the vendors from all the streets of Lusaka.

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Dr Puma:  In the meantime, the ministry in conjunction with the Lusaka City Council (LCC), Ministry of Home Affairs and other stake holders are assessing the availability of space at City Market, New Soweto and Chibolya Markets with a view to allocate space to these vendors.

Mr Speaker, once this is done, all the street vendors will be removed from the shop corridors and streets of Lusaka City as there will be no excuse for them to stay there. It is my appeal to the members of the public including hon. Members of this august House to stop encouraging our people to do their business in undesignated areas so that we can bring sanity to our cities and towns.

Further, I would like to caution the street vendors and mention that their days are numbered …

Interruptions

Dr Puma: … because once we have allocated the New Soweto and Chibolya Markets, we shall not allow any street vendors to be on the streets. This is the time for them to start looking around for the spaces where they can trade from in the designated areas.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing confirm the allegation and assert that the Movement for Multi-party Democracy (MMD) has established branches and sections in the streets where these vendors trade and that the same situation is obtaining at various markets in  Lusaka?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwiimbu: Is he also considering abolishing these MMD branches and sections in the streets and in the markets of Lusaka?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, we are not aware of any MMD branches on the streets. As I have alluded to in the response, all that we are doing is to ensure that there are alternative trading places for these people. We do not want to go on the street and chase everybody without giving them alternative areas for trading. We are, therefore, working on the alternative trading places so that they know where they are supposed to go when we remove them from the streets.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Zulu (Bwana Mkubwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister when street vendors will be permanently removed from the streets. The tendency is that they are removed one day and then return in two months. When are we going to get rid of them once and for all?

The Minister of Local Government and Housing (Mr Tetamashimba): Mr Speaker, I had told my hon. Deputy Minister that if there would be any hon. Member of Parliament from the Patriotic Front (PF) asking a question, I would be the one to answer it.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, the reason is that just before elections, PF, through their leader, …

Hon. PF Members: Aah!

Mr Tetamashimba: … called Mr Pikiti and went to court to put an injunction restraining the Lusaka City Council from removing the street vendors from the streets.  We had to struggle and only lifted it a few months ago. As at now, that case has not been withdrawn by PF. I am surprised that my PF colleagues have not asked themselves whether they have been to court or not because there is a case there which was taken by them through Mr Pikiti. It is not fair for them to come here and talk about street vendors when they are the ones who had gone to court to place an injunction against their own council.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo): Mr Speaker, the world over, street vending does occur.  Even in the most developed countries, it is there. Is this Government not considering designating a proper street where street vendors can conduct their business? Street vending is a special way of marketing which can be confined to a particular street, if considered.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, we are considering various designated places where people can be allowed to market their goods. We are also seriously considering opening up some of the streets on specific days, like Saturdays, so that people can be allowed to trade on these streets. However, communities will be informed about the final decision regarding which streets would be allowed on specific days since it is not every street in the city that will be involved.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Speaker, the market spaces available are not enough to cater for the people who are trading on the streets. If we say we are going to create market spaces for them, it might take the ‘Lord’s coming’ days. Are we not considering that these vendors who have taken up spaces, sometimes even road spaces, are putting other road users at risk of being run over by cars? Why can we not use the existing laws to get rid of these people from the streets?

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, our wish is to create, at least, a good number of spaces for trading. For example, the New Soweto Market, alone, is expected to create over 2,000 trading spaces. When we add other trading spaces, which we have in mind, we expect to have over 3,000 trading places available. With this kind of number, we do not expect people to be trading on the streets.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I wonder how long this will last. For example, Chilenje Market is now twelve years under construction and it is not finished yet. I would like to ask the hon. Minister whether he is going to complete these facilities or furnish the Lusaka City Council with its grants in lieu of rates and with a new valuation role so that it has the resources to do the job itself.

I thank you, Sir.

Dr Puma: Mr Speaker, with regard to when the market will be opened, I would like to state that we have reached an advanced stage. In fact, I would like to inform the hon. Member that the New Soweto Market is ready for occupation.

Hon. PF Members: Chilenje!

Dr Puma: At the moment, we are just opening up the road so that as people go to trade in this area, it will be easy for them to have access to the market.

With regard to Chilenje Market, my Government is doing everything possible to ensure that this market is completed in order for it to be used as a trading area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Malama (Mfuwe): Mr Speaker, can the hon. Minister assure the people of this country that those new markets, which this Government is constructing, especially the New Lusaka City Market, will not be occupied by foreigners who financed the MMD campaigns, but that they will be occupied by Zambians.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, the issue of financing campaigns is not supposed to come to this House. I am aware that your president had to write …

Mr Malama: But it is me who asked that question!

Mr Tetamashimba: … on the issue of taxes, claiming that there was no need for that tax because he wanted the mining companies …

Mr Lubinda: Which tax?

Mr Mutati: Windfall tax!

Mr Tetamashimba: Windfall tax!

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: … to give him some money. That is not what we do, ourselves.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: Until I put in the new Act that you approved in this House, the people who are managing these markets were appointed by the councillors and some of them are PF Members.

Laughter

Mr Tetamashimba: They are the ones who appointed the people who are there. I think it is just vice versa because it is yourselves who are doing that. I have not yet started implementing and even when it comes to implementation of the Act; it is the respective organisations that are going to put the board members in place. I think that the question asked by the hon. Member of Parliament for Mfuwe was malicious.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

READMISSION PROGRAMME FOR SCHOOL GIRLS AFTER GIVING BIRTH FROM 2006 TO-DATE

209. Mr Chanda (Kankoyo): asked the Minister of Education:

(a) how many girls were readmitted into schools after giving birth from 2006 to-date, province by province;

(b) out of the total number of girls above, how many completed Grade 12; and

(c) how many dropped out at Grade 9 level.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, I would like to inform the House as follows:

(a) Pregnancy Readmission

Province 2006 2007
Central 168 227
Copperbelt 252 292
Eastern 236 244
Luapula 288 227
Lusaka 236 205
North-Western 442 556
Northern 230 222
Southern 338 374
Western 318 336
Grand Total 2,508 2,683

Mr Speaker, these are the statistics that we have as at now.

Sir, the total number of readmitted girls who completed Grade 12 is as follows:

2006 2007 Total

397 416 812

The total numbers of drop outs were as follows:

2006 2007 Total
89 95 184

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chanda: Mr Speaker, I am aware that a good number of these girls are orphans. Therefore, are there any plans by Government to assist such girls as they continue with their education?

The Minister of Education (Professor Lungwangwa): Mr Speaker, indeed, we have programmes to assist orphans and vulnerable children through bursaries as I stated in the Ministerial Statement on the Budget.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Msichili (Kabushi): Mr Speaker, 2000, as a number of pregnant girls is very high. Has Government any intension of engaging counselors to talk to these girls before they get back to school?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we have counseling programmes in schools. In addition, we have sensitisation programmes in the communities with traditional leaders and members of the community. These are programmes we undertake in conjunction with various non-governmental organisations (NGOs) and other civil organisations.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chazangwe (Choma): Mr Speaker, the teaching in the Bible is that there should be no sex before marriage.

Laughter

Mr Chazangwe: I would like the hon. Minister…

Mr Speaker: Order! Which book in the Bible is that?

Laughter

Mr Chazangwe: Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell this House how the mission secondary schools respond when a girl is pregnant. Do they readmit these girls or not?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, this is a Government Policy and we expect all the schools to respond as per the policy.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, could the hon. Minister tell us how many times one girl can be readmitted to school after being pregnant.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, we do not expect a recurrence of pregnancies. We hope that once such a thing has happened, the girl will learn a lesson and not indulge again. The policy has no limit.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mrs Musokotwane (Katombola):  Mr Speaker, I want to commend the Government for this policy and they should keep it up. I am one of those people who made them do it.

Laughter

Mrs Musokotwane: Sir, how many teachers were involved in these pregnancy cases and what have you done to them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, that is a new question indeed. If the hon. Member cares, we can provide statically data, if we have it, should that question be forwarded to us.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Speaker, many of these children that are falling pregnant are those that cannot afford to be in boarding schools because of exorbitant charges of fees and they opt to rent houses in the villages.  What is the ministry doing to ensure that at least, they assist these children?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, I think the question borders on what we are doing to assist those vulnerable children. As I pointed out, we are assisting those children with bursaries to enable them meet the user fees and other charges.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka): Mr Speaker, is there a data base by the Ministry of Education (MoE) that has captured all these young girls that have fallen in the category of being pregnant once or twice and is commonly shared by all schools in the country in order to determine whether they are readmitting children who have been pregnant more than once?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, indeed, we have a data base at the MoE, Directorate of Planning, where all that information is captured. We have distributed copies of the 2008 Educational Statistical Bulletin in the mail boxes of all the hon. Members of Parliament. We did this on Monday. The latest copy is here for you to look at. We did this last year and the previous year. Therefore, I am wondering how that question is coming. This information contains data on pregnancies, re-admittances and all other factors pertaining to the operations of the educational system countrywide.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Chisala (Chilubi): Mr Speaker, the current policy states that before a girl is readmitted, there should be a lapse of eighteen months. Is the Government considering reducing this period?

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Speaker, what is being quoted is very important for the process of the girl child to look after the baby. I think that is very important.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

_________

MOTIONS

SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDERS

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that Standing Orders 20 and 21 (1), if necessary, and Standing Order 101 be suspended to enable the House to complete all business on the Order Paper and that all matters arising therefrom and that, on such completion, the House do adjourn sine die.  

Mr Speaker, last Friday, when giving the Business of the House for this week, I did indicate that it will be necessary to move this Motion in order to enable the House rise and allow hon. Members to return to their constituencies and offices and attend to their equally important matters awaiting them. It is in this regard that I now move this motion.

Mr Speaker, the first meeting of the Third Session of the Tenth Assembly, which concludes today, started on 16th January, 2009. As of today, the House has been sitting for a total of forty days, one of the longest and busiest meetings of the House. During this period, 210 Questions for Oral Answer and fifteen Questions for Written Answer were placed on the Order Paper and were adequately answered by the Executive.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In addition, nine Government Bills were presented and considered by the House. The House also considered six Motions to adopt reports of portfolio and select committees.

Furthermore, a total of thirty reports from Government and quasi-Government departments and parliamentary committees were tabled and twenty Ministerial Statements explaining Government policies and clarifying issues were also presented to the House and deliberated upon at length.

Mr Speaker, in addition to the business I have outlined above, the House, by the time we adjourn today, will have passed the 2009 Budget, thereby, authorising expenditure for various developmental activities for this financial year. To all hon. Members, I say well done and let us keep this spirit of hard work.

Hon. Members: hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: It is only through hard work that we can bring about prosperity for our great nation, Zambia.

Mr Speaker, allow me to mention that this meeting of the House will remain memorable to me as new Leader of Government Business in the House and also to some hon. Members who are new to this House, who have experienced the passing of the Budget for the first time. I am sure it was a challenge, but with determination and zeal, we all managed to go through all the business. I am therefore, certain that valuable lessons have been learnt from the 2009 Budget meeting to assist in the formulation of the 2010 Budget.

Mr Speaker, when we met to consider this year’s Estimates of Revenue and expenditure, I did not expect an easy time from our  colleagues on the Back Bench, particularly, those from the opposition. However, from the way business has been transacted, one can clearly see how our multi-party democracy is gaining momentum.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, in this regard, I am humbled to work with such hon. Members on both sides of the House, who are very constructive and have resolved to see our beloved country move forward.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Speaker, as we adjourn today, I wish to call upon all hon. Members to go back to their constituencies and help the Government carry out damage assessment arising from floods in many parts of the country. As hon. Members are aware, a number of districts in different parts of our country have been affected by floods. It is, therefore, necessary for the Government through the Disaster Management and Mitigation Unit (DMMU) to ensure that appropriate intervention measures are taken. A number of roads have become impassable, bridges have been washed away and houses and fields have been destroyed by the heavy rains. As a result of this, some of our citizens have been displaced and rendered homeless. It is therefore, cardinal that hon. Members use the recess to inter alia assess the situation on the ground, and thereafter assist the Government in working out modalities of ameliorating the situation.

In the same vein, I would like to appeal to all hon. Members in areas where the harvest will be good, to advise the people to harvest their produce in good time so that nothing goes to waste. The Government, on its part, will continue to encourage our people to take good care of whatever is harvested. In this regard, hon. Members should work hard to supplement Government efforts.

Sir, as I conclude, allow me to express my gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, Madam Deputy and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees of the whole House for the efficient and impartial manner in which you presided over the business of the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: I pray that the good Lord continues to give you more energy and wisdom, as you execute this difficult task of presiding over the deliberations of the National Assembly.

Likewise, allow me, Sir, to express my profound gratitude to the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff, for the excellent service they have continued to render to the House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: In the same vein, let me acknowledge, with gratitude, the important work done by officers in the Office of the Vice-President and indeed, the entire Public Service for the efficient manner in which they rendered their services in support of the business of the House. To you all, I thank you. Keep it up and may God bless you.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Speaker: Before I call for any further debate. I would like to remind the House that this Motion does not require a return to cross country debating. That has been done very adequately, following the address by His Excellency, the President, and the Budget Address and on so many other occasions during questions and other times.

If you look at the Motion very carefully, it simply says suspend these Standing Orders, which normally would today, restrict us to rise by 1255 hours. It simply says let us meet beyond 1255 hours to complete the works on the Order Paper. Simply that. Any further brief debates?

Laughter

Dr Scott (Lusaka Central): Mr Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to debate. I will be extremely brief.

 I would like to extend my thanks to the MMD Government, I do not know if it is still the New Deal or the new race to deal, for what it has done by unifying the Opposition. In the course of several weeks, it has succeeded in helping me find new friends on this side of the House. I hope that I am regarded as a friend by others as well.

Mr Speaker, we have been unified by the Sichifulo issue.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Scott: We have been unified by issues such as windfall tax, industrial minerals, floods, and importation of genetically modified maize (GMOs). I intend to get back to my constituency and tell the people in Bauleni, that all of them are street vendors because there is no market. Further, I will tell them that in future, they should make sure that their relatives in the rural areas also vote against the MMD.

Laughter
Dr Scott: Mr Speaker, while His Honour, the Vice-President did say that this was a democracy-making process, we still, at least, have one foot in the one-party State. I know that the confidence in the less than perfect nature of the electoral process, which the Government has, gives them a lot more hope than they sometimes deserve. However, not even a questionable electoral system, starting from the Director, all the way down to the local government officials and further down to the cleaners and the intelligence officers in the districts, will protect this Government from a unified opposition. 

Mr Speaker, with those few words, I support the Motion and I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Hamududu (Bweengwa): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate. I will be extremely brief.

Mr Speaker, I support the motion and I just want to urge the Government to take a deep reflection over the issues raised during this Session.

Mr Speaker, people are now about to harvest their crops and I hope the Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, through the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), will do the correct thing by reserving food for our people to use till the end of the year.

Mr Speaker, last year, there was literally no food in the rural areas because all the food was moved to the shelves and sold elsewhere. I therefore, want to urge this Government to reserve food in the areas where it will be grown and only take the excess.

Sir, the other issue which I want to bring to the attention of Government to reflect upon is that of replanning the way forward on how to prepare our people for farming this coming year. The Government must begin this now when the fertilizer is cheaper on the world market. We have no excuse to have food deficit in our country because it is mockery and unacceptable.

Mr Speaker, the last issue is that of land. I would like this Government to reflect on the issue of accessibility of land by Zambians, especially, near big cities like Lusaka, the Copperbelt and even in our small districts like Monze. As the towns are growing, the big farms must retreat from them.

Mr Speaker, I just want the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing to take note that, in Monze, right now, the Open Air Prison has to be moved because we want to grow the town. If the Ministries of Local Government and Housing, Lands and Home Affairs assist us, we can easily achieve the municipal status in the next three years.

Mr Tetamashimba: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Tetamashimba: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to talk about Monze land when he had come to my office and we concluded that I was going to deal with the issue? Is he really in order to bring up that issue in the House? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: May the hon. Member for Bweengwa move forward.

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, it is Bweengwa. As I conclude I am attaching seriousness to the issue so that we move within time. I want my brother, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing, to consider that I am time bound in my planning. We need to conclude these issues and I know that he is going to assist.

Mr Speaker, finally, I want to ask this Government to take a serious deep reflection if possible, they should go for a retreat and assess the performance of these ministries. Perhaps, they may use the Ministry of Education as an example for the other ministries to emulate so that they can also begin to perform. We are very concerned that most of the ministries have no work plans. Therefore, we cannot judge their deliverable services. I want to appeal to them to take a two days’, or so, retreat and assess their performance because they are performing below par.   Only one ministry is…

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Bweengwa cannot go that far. Hon. Members on my right are answerable to this House collectively. If you single out one or more hon. Ministers for censure, you are actually condemning all of them. If you single out one hon. Minister for praise, you are actually praising all of them.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Therefore, decide which way to go. You may conclude your remarks.

Laughter

Mr Hamududu: Mr Speaker, I want to urge this Government to increase their performance beyond one ministry.

With these words, Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: That is what happens when hon. Members become very experienced debaters.

Laughter

Dr Kalumba (Chienge): Mr Speaker, I rise to support the Motion of Adjournment.

Sir, in doing so, I want to congratulate the Leader of Government Business in the House and through you, Sir, all hon. Members of the House for having managed our extreme tempers once in a while.

Mr Speaker, I am particularly conscious of the fact that those moments that have tested this House have come to a peaceful conclusion and I am sure that those hon. Members who exchanged bitter words have had time to share cups of tea out side or during break.

Sir, I am particularly sensitive to my sister Regina…

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: …and her team. The United Party for National Development (UPND) is a party that provides Zambia with a considerable amount of opportunity for constructive opposition.

 Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Of late, I have watched their passion for certain things particularly, on issues of land. While that passion comes with so much heat, I wish to commend them for it. My appeal is that that must be the kind of passion all of us as Zambians must share for our country. It just needs to be re-directed to make it a little bit more user friendly by the other side [the opposition].

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: Though it is less questionable, as it stands, there is need for hon. Members of Parliament to stand on this Floor and speak passionately about things they believe in. Some times we do it in error because we believe that, perhaps, what we are discussing is true. In such instances, all we need is to be corrected. Therefore, Government is supposed to provide us with correct information in order to allay our fears.

Sir, I come from an area where I have been speaking passionately about the border issue. I support my Government a 100 per cent plus. In doing so, I want to passionately urge them to consider the concerns of our people along the border. It is never intended to be ill-will, disrespect or disregard for our Government. It is simply a call from the back bench and the Opposition to allow our Government to excel and rise beyond ordinary expectations because sometimes we come up with strong language. Therefore, I am very grateful to my brother, the hon. Member for Namwala, the indigenous who has learnt to temper his language of late. Therefore, I am very pleased.

 Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Sir, we need to exercise a different kind of politics in Zambia today. Having said that, I want to pay tribute to an old politician, the First Republican President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda. He spent years literally preaching to us, as young as some of us were, about the politics of love.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Mr Speaker, we seem to have lost the understanding of this aspect.

Mr Speaker, the politics of love means those of truth. This means to speak the truth even when it hates.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: To speak the truth even when it means putting your life on the line.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Sir, to speak the truth if it means it will uplift our people from their degradation and constant suffering.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I believe that President Kaunda meant well, all the time, when he preached the message of love.

Mr Sinyinda: One Zambia One Nation!

Dr Kalumba: Love does not accept misinformation, hate, envy and pulling others down.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: Therefore, if we understand that as a philosophical basis of our politics, we will respect each other when we engage in politics here. We will respect our leadership in the Front Bench and our Opposition colleagues when they speak, sometimes, with fervour, vehemence and force. We will understand that they mean well if we understand the message of love.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Motion!

Ms Cifire: Tekanyeni!

Dr Kalumba: Of late, I have been troubled as I listen and watch the politics of people saying things about each other that misinform the public out there. Some people carry recorders in their pockets to record the conversations you have with them so that they can go out there and misinform.

Mr Mabenga: Bulela, bulela!

Dr Kalumba: We must stop those kinds of politics. Let us speak the politics of truth.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: I do not believe in the so-called …

Hon. PF Member: Recording!

Dr Kalumba: Well, I will leave it there, Mr Speaker. I will turn back to debate the Motion. I think the message is clear.

Best leaders become so because they start with humility.

Hon. PF Member: Long live jealousy!

Dr Kalumba: Great leaders are humble.

Mr Speaker: Order!

Does the hon. Member support the Motion?

Dr Kalumba: Yes, I am in support of the Motion.

As I conclude, Sir, …

Laughter

Dr Kalumba: … I wish to state that great leaders are humble. To steer this House as His Honour the Vice-President has done, has required humility on his part. He needed it to enable him to read the mood of this House correctly.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kalumba: When you do not read the mood of the House correctly, you cannot help it reduce the tensions that have risen in here. Therefore, I am grateful that our leaders both in the Front Bench and the Opposition, whether they are Chief Whips of the Opposition either in the PF or UPND, are learning the value of humility. Arrogance is not a character of good politics.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: The House should hear from an honourable lady Member of Parliament. Is there any one indicating?

Laughter

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for this very rare opportunity of deliberately allowing a female to speak on this Motion. I support the motion to adjourn sine die.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Sir, it gives us the opportunity to get back to our constituencies. Personally, I am very happy about closing because a lot has been done in the forty days that we were here and I think that it is about time for us as hon. Members of Parliament to get back to our constituencies and tell our people about the Citizen Economic Empowerment Fund to enable them to access these funds and also to ensure that we help our constituencies in various sectors of our economy which the Government has ably dealt with in the last forty days we have been in this House.

Mr Speaker, I would like to say that the Front Bench must assist hon. Members of Parliament, especially now as we get back to our constituencies.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: From time to time, we will call upon their offices in order for them to address some of the concerns that we will find on the ground and I hope that their doors will be open to all of us.

Sir, I know that in these forty days that we have been here, some of us may have made statements which may not have pleased certain individual hon. ministers. However, I would like to assure them that as hon. Members of Parliament, we come here to represent our people and not only to praise them. Yes, at times we will praise the hon. Ministers, but it is better for us to bring out the problems we discover in our constituencies as well. That is why we bring them to this House for their understanding so that they can do something about them. We do not mean to embarrass them, to make them feel small or to make them feel that they are not working.

Mr Speaker, I would also like to give notice that as I go back to my constituency, I will bring back a lot of questions for the Front Bench to address.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: When I bring these questions, it will give the hon. Ministers the opportunity to explain so that the people can understand that they are working for them. If we do not bring these questions, people will not know what is going on. Therefore, I am just giving notice that as I get back to my constituency, I will be on the ground working with the people.

 I am not one of those people who do not go to their constituencies. You have a very good hon. Member of Parliament in me, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Speaker, rest assured that I will go and talk to my people and when I come back, I will raise important questions on education, agriculture and road construction. Therefore, my colleagues in the Front Bench must be ready for those questions and Motions to be debated. I think that is why we were elected as hon. Members of Parliament.

With those very few words, I wish to give notice that there will be 100 questions from me for each ministry.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: I am looking in the direction of His Honour the Vice-President. Is he ready?

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Yes, Sir.

Mr Speaker, thank you for all the constructive debates that we have been entertained by. We have been informed that the Opposition is now united. That is something we have learnt from these debates. However, we are also united on this side, …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: … and we shall continue to be united. Mr Speaker, I must also mention that we are one House and we will continue to interact with hon. Members on both your left and right. Indeed, we should continue to work together if we are to develop this country.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Otherwise, I wish to thank you, Mr Speaker, for the support which has been given to this particular motion.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to.

________

BILLS

HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES
 in the Chair]

THE ONE-STOP BORDER CONTROL BILL, 2009

Clauses 1, 2, 3, and 4 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 5 – (Application of criminal law)

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 5, on page 7:

(i) in line 2 by the insertion of the words “or a person having entered Zambia” immediately after the words “resident of Zambia”; and

(ii) in line 8, by the insertion of the words “or a person having entered Zambia” immediately after the words “resident of Zambia.”

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, this amendment is one which we consider to be reasonable and correct and to demonstrate that we do not reject whatever the Opposition says, we will accept this amendment, but we hope that the hon. Member will withdraw the other amendments which will come later.

Laughter

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, in order to save time, we accept this particular amendment because we are a listening Government. It is going to improve on the legislation and so we accept it.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Amendment agreed to. Clause amended accordingly.

Clause 5, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 6, 7 and 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

First and Second Schedules, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Mr Chairperson, I beg to move an amendment on page 5, in the long title, by the deletion of the words “the conclusion of” immediately after the words “An Act to provide for.”

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we are a listening Government and this particular amendment is reasonable and we accept it, but as I said, in order to save time, the hon. Members of the Opposition should also be accommodating on the next Bill.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: We accept this amendment because it will improve the Bill.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Amendment agreed to. Title amended accordingly.

Title, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

THE MINES AND MINERALS DEVELOPMENT (Amendment) BILL, 2009.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 2 – (Amendment of section 7)

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, as the committee indicated, we, on this side, support the committee in rejecting that amendment for reasons that were very well articulated yesterday.

The Deputy Chairperson: The question is that Clause 2 be amended with the words as circulated. Is there a debate?

Hon. Members: There is no amendment!

The Deputy Chairperson: I thought there was one.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I had circulated an amendment. However, what we are discussing now is the amendment that has been proposed by the Hon. Minister.

The Deputy Chairperson: Which hon. Minister?

Mr Lubinda: The hon. Minister responsible for the Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, 2009.

The Deputy Chairperson: No! I have only one amendment which was circulated by you.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, in that case, I beg to move an amendment in Clause 2, on page 1, by the deletion of Clause 2 and the substitution therefor of the following new Clause 2:

2. Section seven of the principal Act is amended in subsection (4) by the deletion of the words “citizen-owned company” and the substitution therefor of the words “citizen-influenced company.”

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Mr Chairperson, we totally reject this amendment because it is uncalled for. We did debate this particular issue at length and the hon. Member should be magnanimous enough to withdraw the amendment so that we make progress. It is unreasonable and this is why we are saying our friends on your left are not being reasonable. Let us be understanding and negotiate these things. We have been magnanimous enough by accepting all your amendments, but on this one, our vote on this side of the House will be ‘no’ if this amendment is moved.

Mr Chairperson, I request the hon. Member to withdraw this amendment because we reject it totally.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Mr Chairperson, the amendment by Hon. Lubinda is very progressive. The reasons are simple and they are that, we need to empower the people to partner with the foreign investors who may come to invest in the mining of industrial minerals. The amendment seeks to replace the phrase “company owned” which by definition is a shareholding of 25 per cent to 50 per cent. We are saying that we should substitute that with the phrase, “citizen influenced company” which is a shareholding of between 5 per cent to 25 per cent. We are saying that even when foreign investors come, can we, at least, allow Zambians with even a minimum of 5 percent shareholding to partner with the foreigners so that they can jointly go into the mining of industrial minerals.

Mr Chairperson, this is simple, straightforward and none controversial because all we are asking for is for the Government to allow Zambians to partner with foreigners even with the minimum shareholding of 5 per cent.

Mr Syakalima (Siavonga): Mr Chairperson, we must employ deductive and inductive thinking when we look at the 50 per cent plus 1 which is in the current Act and then the committee’s restatement of 5 per cent to 25 per cent, how reasonable does the Government want Zambians to be? This is because this is a Zambian issue it is not about them and us here. When you say you want us to be reasonable you are simply telling the Zambians that they are very unreasonable. Since you people in Government, are fewer than the 12 million Zambians who are in the country, then, you are the ones who are becoming very unreasonable.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Mr Chairperson, is it not logical for 50 per cent which is in the Act to stand since we are still talking about smelling wealth. The Zambians only have to smell 5 per cent and then 95 per cent is for foreigners. Do not be stiff-necked.

Interruptions

Mr Syakalima: So, if you are talking about reasonableness, then the Zambians are more reasonable because they are many and they are the ones, who are the owners of this land and minerals. Stop counting how many you are! Just reason, simple logic, inductive and deductive thinking would entail that this amendment must be appreciated by everyone.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Syakalima: Otherwise, you will crash land before you take off in this country.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Members, we debated this issue from yesterday and already four hon. Members have spoken. I really do not think we will be getting anywhere if we continue debating the issue. However, I will give one more chance to Hon. Milupi.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for giving me this chance to debate on the Floor of this House.

Mr Lubinda interjected.

Mr Milupi: Some of you will end up behind the bar.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, we, on this side of the House …

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: … are very being reasonable on this amendment. We are not spoiling for a fight as you have seen. That is why most of them have been sent outside …

Laughter

Mr Milupi: … to show that we are not looking for a fight on this Bill.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: We think that the amendment as proposed is extremely reasonable. We could have insisted on the Act so that the law remains as it was. However, we have moved from foreigners having only 39 per cent and now they can have as much as 95 per cent. How reasonable can people expect to be?

Hon. Opposition Member: Correct.

Mr Milupi: I think I will ask the Vice-President on this particular one that for sake of the citizens in Serenje and all over the place, to please bend …

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Milupi: … and allow, as my colleague there is saying, the citizens of this country to smell a little bit of their wealth.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, I shall not use words that provoke and demean, but I will try to persuade my colleagues in Government. A lot of people who debated this issue yesterday pointed to the fact that the endowment of this country is for the citizens of this country. Therefore, the exploitation of these resources must be to the benefit of current and future generations of our country. We have experience on the exploitation of minerals in this country. Today, for example, all our copper mines are run by foreigners and, indeed, some jobs have been created.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1045 hours until 1100 hours.

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES 
in the Chair]

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, my intention is to persuade my colleagues to see things the way we see them. I have stated that currently a lot of our mineral resources are being exploited by companies in which Zambians have no shareholding. It is true that the law, as is being proposed by the Government, does not restrict Zambians from owning shares. We know that as a fact. However, the point we are making is that their very argument that foreigners are the ones who have money to invest is the very reason why we are saying, can you please make the owners of capital come into Zambia and partner with the owners of the resource that they want to exploit. That is the basic reason why we are saying, can we please have in the law a provision to ensure that whoever comes to exploit only our industrial minerals and let it be made clear, in case some people have not read the law, we are not talking about all sorts of minerals. Here we are talking only about industrial minerals. For the sake of those who might not have followed, what constitutes industrial minerals?

Sir, can you imagine being an hon. Member of Parliament in a constituency where even block making is in the hands of the so-called Foreign Direct Investors (FDI).

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: Can you imagine that. The reason is because the exploitation of the quarry which is the important component in block making is in the hands of foreigners. When our Zambian boys set up companies to try and make blocks, they have to go and buy quarry dust from foreign companies. Obviously those foreign companies want to push our youths outside the block making business so that they can dominate and monopolise it. This is exactly what we are trying to avoid. What we are saying is, while the law as it stands today provides for Zambians to have 51 per cent share. We are now compromising and the Vice-President was talking about compromise, but not bribery. I am not talking about give and take because he agreed on one amendment therefore we should withdraw this. That is not how Parliament should operate. We are talking about compromising whereas the law wants the Bill it is stands today demand 51 per cent shareholding by Zambians. We are saying can we reduce that. We are willing for as long as any company that is set up to exploit our industrial minerals have a minimum of 5 per cent shares held by Zambians.

Now, let me also, Sir, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Lubinda, I think to be very honest, bring your argument to a conclusion. Otherwise, we will be taking long on an issue which should not take long. Can you, please, summarise?

Can you continue, please?

Mr Lubinda: Mr Chairperson, in summarising, let me indicate that as a matter of fact, what we are doing here is to ensure that the laws that are passed by this House are implemented by those people on your right. That is what we are doing. The dignity of this House is not measured by the number of people who are punished by the House, but by the number of times that the laws are implemented in accordance with our wish.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Lubinda: I want to state very clearly that the Mines and Minerals Development Act we are talking about today has a provision on the mining of industrial minerals and states very clearly that all those who were in industrial mining should have left that business by 1st April, 2009, and yet, what has happened is that it had to take your Committee, Sir …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Mr Lubinda, I think that you are not being fair because you are opening up debate and therefore, you should summarise. Here you are saying that the dignity of the House is not judged by the number of punishments, which has nothing to with the subject on the Floor.

Mr Lubinda: Sir, in summary, let me say that today the Zambian people are going to judge whether this House is meant to empower them or put them into vulnerability and devastation. Therefore, we on this side of the House shall push for the amendment of this Bill.

I thank you, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not begin to ask questions when the Chair has taken the Floor.

Hon. Opposition Members called for a division.

Question that Clause 2, on page 1, be amended by the deletion of Clause 2 and the substitution therefor of the following new Clause 2: Section seven of the principal Act is amended in subsection (4) by the deletion of the words “citizen-owned company” and the substitution therefor of the words “citizen-influenced company” put and the House voted.

Ayes ─ (33)

Mr Lubinda
Ms Masiye
Mr Milupi
Mr Mooya
Mr Mukanga
Mr L. P. J. Mulenga
Mr Munaile
Mr Mushili
Mrs Musokotwane
Mrs Mwamba
Mr Mwenya
Mr Mwiimbu
Mr D. Mwila
Mr Nkombo 
Colonel Chanda
Mr Chazangwe
Mr Chisala
Dr Chishimba
Major Chizhyuka
Mr Chota
Mr Habeenzu
Ms Imbwae
Mr Kakoma
Mr Kasoko
Dr Katema
Ms Limata
Mr Ntundu
Mr Nyirenda
Mrs Phiri
Dr Scott
Mr Sikota
Mr Simuusa
Mr Syakalima

Noes ─ (72)

Mr Akakandelwa
Mr A. Banda
Mr I. Banda
Mr Bonshe
Ms Changwe
Mr Chilembo
Mr Chimbaka
Mr Chinyanta
Mr Chipungu
Ms Chitika
Dr Chituwo
Ms Cifire
Mr Daka
Mr Hamir
Mr Imasiku
Mr Kaingu
Mr Kakusa
Mr Kalenga
Dr Kalila
Dr Kalumba
Ms Kapwepwe
Dr Kawimbe
Dr Kazonga
Mr Konga
Mr Kunda
Ms Lundwe
Professor Lungwangwa
Mr Mabenga
Mr Machila 
Mr Magande
Mr Malwa
Mr Mangani
Mrs Masebo
Mr Mbewe
Mr Mbulakulima
Mr Misapa
Mr Mubika
Mr Muchima
Mr Mufalali
Mr Mulonga
Mr Mulongoti
Mr Munkombwe
Dr Musokotwane
Mr Musosha
Mr Mutati
Mr Mwaanga
Mr M. B. Mwale
Mr V. Mwale
Mr Mwangala
Dr Mwansa
Mr Mwanza
Mr Mwapela
Mr B. Y. Mwila
Ms Namugala
Mr Namulambe
Mr Ndalamei
Mr Phiri
Professor Phiri
Dr Puma
Reverend Sampa-Bredt
Ms Sayifwanda
Mr Shawa
Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha
Mr Sichamba
Mr Sichilima
Mr Silavwe
Ms Sinyangwe
Mr Sinyinda
Mr Taima
Mr Tembo
Ms Tembo
Mr Tetamashimba

Abstentions  ─ (03)

Mr C. K. B. Banda SC
Dr Machungwa
Mr Simama

Question that Clause 2 be amended put and negatived.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Title agreed to.

________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The following Bills were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments:

The One–Stop Border Control Bill, 2009

The Mines and Minerals Development (Amendment) Bill, 2009

Third Readings today.

REPORT STAGE

The Customs and Excise (amendment) Bill, 2009

The Supplementary Appropriation (2007) Bill, 2009

Report adopted.

Third Readings today.

THIRD READING

The Value Added Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Property Transfer Tax (Amendment) Bill, 2009

 

The Zambia Development Agency (Amendment) Bill, 2009

The Excess Expenditure Appropriation (2006) Bill, 2009

_________________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTES 90 to 98 – (Office of the President – Provinces: Lusaka – K27,490,712,120, Copperbelt – K36,822,901,903, Central – K27,070,174,731, Northern – K35,889,644,765, Western – K28,749,615,883, Eastern – K32,292,905,334, Luapula – K27,863,913,166, North-Western – K29,512,006,951 and Southern – K35,806,012,816).

(Consideration resumed)

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Mr Chairperson, when business was suspended yesterday, I was discussing the issue of agriculture.

Mr Chairperson, I would now like to move onto the issue of control of animal diseases and creating an animal disease free zone. It is my understanding that the Government is still considering which area to make the animal disease free zone. I would like the Government and the hon. Minister responsible to take the ideas I am going to allude to into consideration.

Mr Chairperson, the neighbouring countries around us which have disease free zones are Namibia and Botswana.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are not listening, particularly, hon. Members on my right side. Please, can you consult quietly.

The hon. Member for Livingstone may continue.

Mr Sikota: Thank you, Sir. The countries around us which have animal disease free zones are Namibia and Botswana. The factor to consider when creating animal disease free zones is that the areas around you, as well, must be free from disease if you are going to be successful. Therefore, in choosing the area which is to be taken into account, it would make more sense to get one which is already surrounded by neighbouring countries or areas which are disease free. Now, such areas in Zambia would be the Southern and Western provinces as top contenders on that account and so, I pray that the hon. Minister takes that into account.

Mr Chairperson, the other reason why I would pray that he takes into account these areas is because they are more economically depressed compared to other areas which are in contention thus; this would help to bring these areas up to the same level as other areas in the country. There is already a history of animal husbandry in these areas hence, getting the people of these areas to learn to look after this new status, the level of it being an animal disease free zone, would be much easier.

Mr Chairperson, there are also the natural barriers that exist in that there are areas which have routes pass over bridges to get to another piece of land and this would make control much easier. On the contrary, other areas have many land routes where cattle and other animals could be moved about, easily, thereby making policing of these zones more difficult. I think that the case of making Southern and Western provinces as areas for the animal disease free zone is clearly made out and I hope the Government will take that into consideration.

Sir, I would now like to talk about fuel. Southern Province pays the highest fuel prices. This is because it is the farthest from the oil refinery plant at Indeni. I hope that the Government will stop merely talking about making a flat rate all over the country as they have been talking about it for many years without implementing it. It is about time they actually implemented it so that the people of Southern Province will not be the ones who will bear the brunt of paying the highest fuel prices in the country.

Mr Chairperson, alternatively, the oil trading companies along the border line, Southern Province, in particular, should be allowed to import fuel directly from neighbouring countries such as Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe because it is cheaper there. There is no reason why the people of this area should be penalised when it is possible to bring down the cost of fuel.

Sir, still on the issue of fuel, I am glad that the Government has now agreed that part of the fuel levy will go to the maintenance of railway lines which is very important to Southern Province. Currently, it is in a bad state. It is hoped that there will be equitable distribution of the wealth that will be obtained from the fuel levy to attend to the railways and this includes the Mulobezi Railway Line. It should not be forgotten.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, still on the issue of energy and with reference to electricity. It is well known that wheel charges make up, at least, 20 per cent of the cost of our electricity. Wheel Charges are basically the cost of moving electricity from one point to another. The Southern Province generates a lot of electricity.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: It generates most of the electricity that we use in Zambia and yet, it suffers the same wheeling charges as the rest of the country. That is not fair, especially when you take into account the sacrifices that were made by the people in these areas when they were moved to accommodate facilities such as dams, for electricity generation. It is only fair, therefore, that the wheeling charges in the Southern Province be taken away so that the charges are at least 20 per cent below the national charges.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Mr Chairperson, cheaper electricity and fuel will also help to spur industry in the Southern Province. That is very important.

Mr Chairperson, I would now like to turn to the issue of climate change and the crippling desertification that we are facing. Three days ago, I heard the hon. Minister of the Southern Province state that some of the forests we have are of no use because they have been depleted. I hope he does not take this as trying to bruise him, because he talked about it when he debated. I think he was wrong.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: When you find that your forests have been depleted, there is need for a deliberate policy to regenerate the vegetation by replanting and reforestation, but not to degazette and allow other activities to be practiced there.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: If we do not do that, we will continue to see soil erosion and climate change effects that we have been having. Charcoal burning is one of the main reasons why we have a great amount of desertification in the Southern Province. There is need for the Government to have a deliberate policy to give charcoal burners and others who misuse this resource an alternative. One alternative which is also good for the forest would be that of bee keeping. There should be a deliberate attempt to get the charcoal burners to diversify into echo friendly activities. If that is done, we shall see the return of the Southern Province into the land of plenty with lots of cattle and crops. We will see that it will become very attractive again. However, as you do this, be mindful that once it becomes attractive with lots of cattle again, those marauding Lozis will most likely come back to raid.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota: Therefore, the only way to stop those marauding Lozis is that as you uplift the Southern Province; do not forget the Western Province as well.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: I thought I was going to have somebody from the Central Province, but they are not indicating.

Hon. Member: Luapula is here!

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr Chola may take the Floor.

Hon. Members: Chongo!

The Deputy Chairperson: Chola or Chongo? Mr Chongo, I beg your pardon.

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Mr Chairperson, this explains why I have to indicate twenty times. It is Chongo and you need to know me.

Laughter

Mr Chongo: I thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate Luapula Province. The last time I spoke, I indicated to the hon. Minister for Luapula Province, who was not in the House then, that the reason the province is not doing fine is that there is no unity of purpose. The will from the people to develop is encouraging, but unfortunately, we only see in-fighting amongst those in leadership. This has worked to the detriment of the province. I, therefore, hope and pray that the hon. Minister will address this problem and try to create harmony amongst the political leadership including the civil servants who spearhead Government programmes in the province. I see this province changing for the better if we can work in harmony.

 Mr Chairperson, before I get to the main issue that I want to talk about with regard to the Luapula Province, I want to talk about the need for the Government to intervene in the area of communication, particularly, the road network in the province.

It is a sad story as you approach the Luapula Province from all angles such as the Copperbelt, Northern or Central Provinces through the Tuta Road. It gives a picture that is discouraging. This is why I want to ask the Government to look into the tarring of the Pedicle Road. If this road remains untarred, we will not see any meaningful development in the Province. We have just been gifted with a good bridge at Luapula River crossing from the Democratic Republic of Congo into Zambia at Chembe.

Hon. Members: Kasai!

Mr Chongo: This bridge will be underutilised because as I speak, we are getting less than fifteen motor vehicles a day crossing from either side as compared to more than fifty vehicles that were crossing around September/October. This is because of the condition of the Pedicle Road. Therefore, this bridge will not give us the benefit that we anticipated if this road remains in its current state. I ask the Government to look into this.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Tuta/Mansa/Mwense/Kashikishi Road, I remember very well that last year after making a lot of noise, the Government succumbed to pressure and released some material they said was supposed to be used to mend the potholes that were dotted along this road. Unfortunately, out of the wisdom of the MMD Government, we do not know what happened to that material. The material and the money that was allocated for patching up this road was misused.

Mr Chairperson, sadly, you need to know that instead of punishing the culprits, those civil servants from the Roads Development Agency (RDA), were simply transferred to other areas. This means that they were transferring problems from Luapula Province to other areas. This is not the way to go. We need to create a culture where any erring officer is punished so that it serves as warning to other civil servants.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about the Kasama/Luwingu/Mwense/Mansa Road which is a very important road. If this road together with the Pedicle Road were tarred, we would see increased traffic along this road passing from Northern Province through Mansa in Luapula Province to the Copperbelt Province, especially that our friends in the DRC have created a road from Lubumbashi to Mwense District which is only about 200 kilometres. This would be the shortest route to East Africa through DRC. As a result, as people of Luapula Province, we can benefit if this road was attended to.

Sir, I also want to talk about the potential in mining activities in the province. I would like to indicate from the onset that this province is very rich in minerals like copper, manganese and other base and industrial minerals and even gemstones. However, the question is, why we are not exploiting these resources? The answer is that we have a lot of hindrances to this. One of which is the lack of support from the Government, in particular, the Ministry of Mines and Mineral Development.

Mr Chairperson, Yes, I take note that in 2007, this ministry mapped Mwense District. That was not enough because a mapping exercise is carried out to basically study the nature of roads around an area and in this instance, it would only give a brief translation of particular minerals that may appear in the given area. However, a lot needs to be done. We need the Government to intervene by exploring, prospecting and giving licences to those that are applying to go into mining activities in Luapula.

Mr Chairperson, the other problem that we have regarding mining is that, there are basically three mining houses that own land stretching from Chembe to Kaputa. This has only been given to three individuals who do not even have the capacity to undertake the exploration and prospecting activities. This has affected those would be investors in this field because there is need to get consent from people that have been given the prospecting licences.

Sir, I also want to express my disappointment which I would like to call the Government to look into. Last year, we just passed the Mines and Minerals Act in this House which indicated that if somebody did not start prospecting within a period of two years, they had to forgo a certain portion of their land so that it could be given to other people. This is not happening.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the lack of electricity. I would like to inform the House that we have been seeing a lot of vehicles carrying copper from DRC passing through Luapula and taking it to the Copperbelt Province. In fact, they do not even electricity, but why are they doing this. The reason is that copper is a very expensive material to exploit. The good thing about our friends is that the grade of the copper that they are getting is about 25 to 30 per cent. However, in Luapula Province, Chienge, in particular, it is at 15 per cent.

Now, if we were to mine and transport that material, we would find that we would not get anything at the end of the day because of the transport costs. This is why we are asking for electricity so that we can set up processing plants within the area to enable us to upgrade this copper. Thereby, be able to transport the concentrated material which is about 30 or 40 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, even if we were to transport that material to the Copperbelt where we can get smelters, that would still be profitable to us.

Therefore, we are asking the Government to come to the aid of Luapula Province by providing electricity. This is why I want to echo the sentiments expressed by Hon. Machungwa that, at least for now, we can connect power to Luapula Province through the Pedicle Road

Dr Machungwa: Hear, hear!

Mr Chongo: … especially because there are indications that the Government intends to tar this road. During this exercise, we can simultaneously put up the lines from Mufulira on the Copperbelt to Luapula Province so that we can set up those processing plants. This will enhance various mining activities in this area.

Mr Chairperson, I would also like to talk about fisheries. It is unfortunate that whilst the Ministry of Livestock and Fisheries is talking about development in this industry, we do not see anything coming to fisheries in Luapula Province. We need to restock our rivers. We have got a lot of rivers and lakes in Luapula Province. We need to know that the fishing industry has been over stressed not because people are practicing unlawful fishing methods, but because the population has increased in the province. Therefore, the only way we can sustain this industry is by continuously restocking. If fishing is promoted like mining, we will see that other people will invest in fishing farming while others will be mining and this will give a relief to our fishing industry so that we can curb the crisis that we are in.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to agriculture, I would like to ask the Food Reserve Agency (FRA), through the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives, to come to our aid and support the farmers that are in the cassava growing activity. We are not happy to be lining up for fertiliser because we can cultivate cassava without fertiliser. However, we do not get any support from the Government because it is not buying the product so that we can have capital to expand our activities.

Mr Chairperson, with these few words, I would like to thank you.

 Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to add my voice on the provincial votes and in particular, Lusaka Province. I will not get into the details that other debaters have discussed.

Mr Chairperson, I want to look at this vote from the decentralisation policy point of view. The role of the Provincial Government is a very important one as far as development is concerned. The only problem that the provinces face, for example, Lusaka Province, is that over 80 per cent of the allocation goes towards salaries, wages and administration. May be only 10 or 15 per cent goes towards the actual works.

Sir, in this case, the actual works will be those of the Ministry of Works and Supply under the Provincial Administration and you will find that they are not able to do much in terms of the road works themselves. Therefore, if we are going to see any meaningful development in the provinces and in the districts, the Government should really move very quickly on the implementation of the Decentralisation Policy.

Mr Chairperson, I want to submit that it is important and necessary that the provincial Government must be responsible for implementing Government policies, supervising Government projects in the districts including monitoring and evaluating. Most of the money must leave the centre and go to the districts where the people are.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, that way, we shall see a different Zambia. If we look at the Lusaka Province Vote, there is littering of small amounts of money for construction of various items. When you really look at that amount of money, you can even see that it will not really do the works that have been listed. Therefore, I want to submit that instead of us using the provinces for doing actual project works, let us use them to monitor the projects and ensuring that the policies that the Central Government makes are being implemented at district level. Let us ensure that the money that is in the Budget goes to the districts so that the actual works of building schools, roads and clinics are implemented there. That way, we shall begin to see meaningful development.

Mr Chairperson, in the manner that we are proceeding now, the achievement of the 2030 Vision is very far fetched. We shall not get there if we are not careful. I am saying so because just when you look at this whole Budget, you will see that there is a lot of money, but it is being littered so much that you cannot feel the impact. I will give you an example of what our friends just across the borders are doing. One of your Committees did look at this issue and I am going to quote what they said from a Report on Agriculture and Lands on Page 11. I think they were looking at the Department of Veterinary:

“the structure of the department of veterinary services at headquarters is such that there are only five officers at the headquarters while the rest are deployed in the field to an extent that each camp had an officer in charge of it.”

Mr Chairperson, this is a structure of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives. What our friends have done is that everything is happening at the district level. The money and the employees are all at the district level. At the provincial level, the structure is very thin because the only job that the people there are doing is implementation in terms of monitoring and ensuring that the standards are being met. They also evaluate whatever projects go on. Even at the national level, the fact that it is responsible for coming up with policies and regulations, the structure of the administration will be very thin. This means that all the people with skills will be at the district level where the people are. That is the meaning of decentralisation.

Mr Chairperson, the MMD Government did adopt the policy. The current administration has even gone further than that. They have now adopted the Decentralisation Implementation Plan (DIP) and two weeks ago, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing was on Television launching it. I take it that cabinet has now formally adopted the strategy that was presented. Since we are closing, I hope that the hon. Minister will come and give us the details of this strategy that the current administration has adopted because we want to know in what form it has been adopted. We also want to know what factors and components of the DIP have been adopted to ensure that we realise its objectives. 

Mr Chairperson, starting from next year, these allocations should start going to the districts. This money should go where it is required. We are definitely adopting this Budget today and I do not see any problems, apart from some of the issues that the opposition raised. In the next Budget, we should take money to Serenje, Chongwe, Kasama, Kafue and Lusaka where the works are.  It is not fair to find that in this year’s Budget, under the Ministry of Health, they have put money for the continued construction of the Chongwe District Hospital. When you go further, you will find that K100 million again is allocated for the construction of Chongwe District Hospital under Lusaka Province Administration. This means the headquarters and the Provincial Government are both budgeting for one hospital in Chongwe. This is injustice. 

Hon. Government Member: Complimentary!

Mrs Masebo: It cannot be complimentary. That is wastage of resources. With K100 million, you will find that may be K30 million will be spent on just two visits to Chongwe Hospital while the national Government also be does the same thing. That is not helping us. I am sure that this Government agrees that this is why the policy was adopted and why the strategy has now been launched by the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing. We should move faster to ensure that we realise our dream by taking the money to the districts where the works are.

Mr Chairperson, we have been talking about the graders. The graders that the Government bought are at the provincial level. With time, we would want these graders as well as the drivers at these districts. We do not have to start visiting the Ministry of Works and Supply and even quarrel with the hon. Minster. When I see a bad road in my constituency, I have to go and quarrel with my Council Secretary at the District Council in Chongwe.  I should be able to tell him that, “You have graders and the money. Can you go and grade Kasisi Road because it is in a deplorable condition.” This will be better than having to come to Lusaka to continuously give the hon. Minister headaches about a road that he does not even know.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, as the hon. Minister visits Kasisi, he will also be needed in Shang’ombo. Therefore, when is he going to reach Lundazi, where the Chairperson comes from? As much as the hon. Minister would like to do that, it is just not possible. You will find that in these three months, he will only manage to visit Chongwe and Kasama and not be able to visit Lundazi. Therefore, I want to state that we do not want the hon. Minister to come to Lundazi. We just want him to send the equipment, money and the expertise.

Mr Chairperson, you will recall that we used to have the Central Board of Health (CBoH) and, again, all the doctors were at head office here in Lusaka. At that time, there were no doctors in the districts. In the period between 2003 and 2004, Chongwe did not have a single doctor. It was only after the dismantling of the CBoH that most of the doctors were sent to the districts, where the work is and this is part of decentralisation. All we are saying is that we should make sure that we put in place what we have agreed to do.

Mr Chairperson, I am happy that in the next sitting, the hon. Minister of Local Government and Housing will bring to the Floor of this House a Bill to introduce the Local Government Service Commission. It is my sincere hope that hon. Members, from both the right and left side, will accept it because there will be need for us to quickly begin capacity building in the councils so that we employ the right people in order for us to implement this decentralisation programme on time.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: We hope, His Honour the Vice-President that this Bill will come in the first week of the next sitting so that we pass it promptly enough for the people to get employed. This will enable the beginning of the implementation of the decentralisation policy so that we can have qualified officers throughout the seventy-three district councils. I think that this way, this country will move forward.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Mr Chairperson, finally, I would like to say that another difficulty that we are facing in the provincial administration, for example, under the provincial local government officer, even though we have budgeted money for him, is the fact that he is not visiting and monitoring the councils effectively. He does not even know what is happening there. He is supposed to attend most of these meetings and guide councils where they are not able to make the right decisions. However, he is not able to do that citing insufficient funds as the cause. Instead of the provincial administration doing their core business of monitoring, they are not able to do this because the money is not enough. The reason behind this is that they are getting involved in construction works. As a result, they tend to be more interested in this than the work of monitoring and ensuring that they assist in the interpretation of Government’s policies into action at the district level.

Mr Chairperson, whilst I am not against the issue of the provincial government officers becoming full ministers in order for them to give Cabinet a full briefing on what takes place in their provinces; they should not be involved in the actual works. Let them be done at the district level.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: Let all the qualified people go to the district level in Shang’ombo today. Then, we will not need to come here to ask His Honour, the Vice-President to visit the area. What kind of disaster management can one individual office, which is in Lusaka, do? No matter how good you are, it is not possible for you to be everywhere at the same time. We need to decentralise and ensure that the strategy that has been adopted by the Government is supported. Sir, the people on your right and left must move together. Only then can we see development in this country.

Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to add my voice and to support the Vote for Lusaka Province. I hope that, indeed, by the end of this year, we will see DIP taking effect.

I thank you, Sir.

Ms Imbwae (Lukulu West): Mr Chairperson, I want to appreciate the hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning for the Budget that he has put in place and to also acknowledge the work of the hon. Ministers who are looking at the development of this country.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, in doing so, I want to take a leaf from the chairperson of the MMD who debated on Western province. I am putting it in this context because he provides leadership for the party that is in Government and what he says must be taken seriously. Based on what he said, I have decided to look at the budget lines for the Western Province to prove his assertion that this province is a strong hold of the MMD.

Mr Chairperson, under Western Province Headquarters Programme 2, Activity 01 – Information and Communication Technology, you will note that whereas, last year we had an allocation of K180 million, we have nothing this year. Going further to Programme 5, Activity 01– Staff Training, last year we had an allocation of K43 million and we have nothing this year. I am aware that this province needs a lot of capacity building so that the few works taking place are monitored effectively by people who know what they are doing.  I am not aware of any organisation that can run without having its staff developed, and yet this province is referred to as a strong hold.

Mr Chairperson, the whole of the Western Province budget does not have an allocation for staff welfare. I do not know how this staff will feel motivated when their budget line has nothing to ensure this cause. Then again, may be this is not important.

Mr Chairperson, I would now like to look at forestry. It is a pity that a place that has a lot of forestry cover and was rewarded for being one of the best kept wetland areas in 2002 has no budget line for forestry. This year, we do not have a budget line to enable us to look after our forestry reserve and product and you know the amount of logging that is taking place in Western Province. I am not sure that when we lose our forest cover, we will still maintain our status as one of the best kept wetlands. It is no wonder that we have all these floods because we have stopped doing a few things that we used to do even in our traditional administration.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to quickly move to the issue of maritime because it is important to the Western Province as we are a water people. I think I said this even last year. As a province, we should be able to budget for items that are meaningful to us, these are items such as, boats and dredgers which will help us clean our water ways, whether canals or rivers, so that they can be deeper and allow the water to stay for a longer period. This way, may be, we can have investment that is long lasting. Right now, even when we grow our vegetables and maize early, like the winter maize, which the chairperson talked about, before it tassels, by December, water settles in. 

Mr Chairperson, as is reflected in the Budget, this year, maritime, inland water ways and canal maintenance has no allocation and yet, last year, we had an allocation of K118,710,472. Even in the traditional days, we used to dredge our canals every year so that they were deepened, could hold more water and were not a risk factor for disasters. It is a pity that our priorities are not moving in the direction that will make us more sustainable as a people. 

Mr Chairperson, the Western Province has traditions that have been upheld for a long time to the point where other people laugh that our traditions are tied to the water. Nevertheless, even when they do, we thrive on having water that is maintained and managed in a certain way.

Ms Limata: We are proud of that. It is our culture.

Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, unfortunately, we have not been given a budget line for cultural services whereas last year, we had K141,405,520.

Sir, I have noticed that my time is running out therefore, I want to quickly get to the issue of decentralisation, which is very important. Those who are familiar with the operations of Western Province will know that decentralisation and gender sensitivity are cardinal factors of our royal establishment. Therefore, decentralisation is not story to us because we know about it and live it.

Mr Chairperson, with regard to the Local Government office this year, which should have been gaining from what I usually call institutional memory and knowledge, has unfortunately not been able to get the vote that would have helped it to successfully move about  in the province to see what is happening.

Mr Chairperson, even for audit inspections, alone; to enable this office to see what is happening in these poorly managed district councils, has no allocation this year. Whereas last year, we had K64,320,000. If you look at what is happening in the country, I wonder where we are moving towards, especially, that we are hoping that decentralisation is what is going to give us a hold on our economy. There are a few things that I would have loved to see. As the hon. Member for Chongwe has said, maybe, we will see them next year. We have a lot of hope that something will come up next.

Mr Chairperson, Here is what we are hoping that we can see for Western Province.
Even in our households, the weak members of our families are given preferential treatment. Those who are sick are the ones that are taken to the hospital. The rest just go for annual check ups and the expenses are different.

Mr Chairperson, Western Province has consistently been termed as the poorest province in this country. It should not be a source of pride to continue saying that, year in year out. This is because we have natural resources that can be exploited, a number of things that we can do and if nothing else, this Government can make a difference and show that what failed to happen in the previous years can begin to happen in  their life time because Western Province is a strong hold of the MMD.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Imbwae: Mr Chairperson, as I wind up to give chance to others, I would like to say that, to prove that we are not like any other province, we have a vote that I would just like to mention. The Road Traffic Commission has no allocation this year. You will find out that there is no road that qualifies to have the road traffic’s presence. Every other provincial headquarter has a vote on this commission whilst Western Province does not have.

Hon. Government Members: It is your choice.

Ms Imbwae: Maybe, it is a choice. Yes, I can hear that. If that is the case then, it means the issue of capacity building which I was talking about is very important.

 I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota (Lubansenshi): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me a chance to debate the Northern Province.

Sir, from the onset, I would like to welcome the hon. Minister for Northern Province. I also want to assure him that, he has got our support and that we will work together to replicate what we have done in the past.

Mr Chairperson, already, I am impressed with your synopsis of the budget. We did not need have that. I have gone through the Yellow Book and I have seen a few mistakes here and there, but that is a good start. Therefore, we hope that we will work in the same line.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: Sir, I am going to be brief because I want the hon. Minister to understand. Therefore, I do not want to go on discussing a lot of things at once.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Minister, I would like to suggest that management at your headquarters should be structured. I do not know how many people are allowed to report to you and keep track of what they are doing with their records. In management we have got terminologies such as Scalar Principle, Span of Control and many others. However, I have seen that at any one time during a rugby game, there is only one player who can lead fourteen people as they carry a ball and try to score. All of them move in unison. That is the largest number one can supervise at any one time. It also calls for their structuring and that is why you have, year in and year out, only a few National teams like the New Zealand All Blacks and the South African Springboks making it to the top.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Minister a long time ago when I started work, I was reporting to a white man who had a diary he used to call “Ikanga book.’ Hon. Minister, you should be able to note whatever you delegate. I am talking about Northern Province because I do not want these people to jam you because I know that they can tell lies. They are just not working. In the same line, you simply transfer the information recorded in your diary when you are reviewing them and base appraisals from there. I know that there are no performance appraisals in Government and I do not know how you promote these people. If you had such kind of track records, you would tell them that on such and such a day, I did this and I gave you this work, but you did not do it. Like other hon. Members have said, you will have everybody going for monitoring and evaluation of work which they do not even know or start. How do you monitor a job which you did not start?

Mr Chairperson, a year ago, we were given taxpayers’ money by the European community to build a big dam. Hon. Minister, all the people from Kasama went to Luwingu for monitoring and evaluation and they said that they were accommodated there, but there is no hotel there. When I tried to find out what was happening, I discovered that only two people spent two nights at the Catholic Mission and yet, they had spent over K40 million. That is the kind of work which is being done.  To date, hon. Minister, the dam which was supposed to be a big dam is still under construction and when these works are completed, unlike what was intended, it is going to be a small one. They have even stopped the construction works at the moment because of the rains.

Mr Chairperson, that is the kind of performance we have on the ground, hon. Minister must I warn you. Actually, it is not the only one; I will give you another example.

There is a man I used to work with at Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company. Hon. Minister, you should listen.

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair.

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, I once worked with this man and he was one of the best technical service managers. He was a good performer and a superb high flyer. This man is now an engineer at the University Teach Hospital (UTH). I believe that the UTH is more complicated than Chambeshi Water and Sewerage Company, but why has the same man failed to do his job now and yet, he was a good performer?

Dr Katema: He has no wings to fly!

Mr Chota: Hon. Minister, you must seriously look into this issue. Probably, this man needs to be equipped with the necessary tools and given adequate allocation so that he can execute his duty to standard.

Hon. Minister, I would like to briefly talk about roads. The Pedicle Road crosses the Chembe Bridge and if you used this road from Lusaka to get to Nakonde, you would have cut off a distance of about 400 kilometres as compared to the other road.

Hon. PF Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Chota: You will be in Nakonde or Kasama in no time.

Major Chibamba: You will be in Chinsali!

Mr Chota: I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister to attend to the Kapiri Mposhi/Mpika/Kasama/Luwinga/Tuta/Mansa/ roads including Chief Nabwalya’s areas. There is no road going there.

Mr Malama: There is no road!

Mr Chota: The Luwingu/Nsombo/Tuchaba roads and their bridges need attention. The Lubansenshi Bridge was washed away and the Luangwa Bridge also needs attention. By the way, we have also got a place called Luangwa somewhere in the Isoka/Nakonde area. Isonge and the famous Mbesuma, Safwa, Kanchibiya and Mutinondo bridges also need …

Mrs Mwamba: Mutinondo has been done!

Mr Chota: … to be worked on.

Mrs Mwamba: Mutinondo balikula!

Mr Chota: It is high time that this Government paid attention to these bridges because we have been talking about them for a long time.

In Chilubi, we need an embankment built from the island to the main land so that people can easily cross from either side.

Hon. Minister, the time you came to Northern Province was the same time the Chinese road works equipment was …

Mr Malama: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

However, before you raise your point of order, I would like to advise Hon. Chota. Whenever you are addressing the hon. Minister, I would rather you addressed him through the Chair and not as directly as you are doing it.

You may raise your point of order.

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I am getting worried because the speaker on the Floor has started concluding his debate on roads without questioning this Government on what criteria were used to allocate K2 billion to Northern Province for feeder roads and yet, it is the biggest province in this country as compared to Eastern Province which is …

Ms Cifire: Iwe, order!

Mr Malama: … a very small province.

Hon. Members from the Eastern Province: Aah! Iwe, order!

Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Malama: Mr Chairperson, I need your serious ruling because the distance from Mpika to Kasama is about 150 kilometres …

Interruptions

Mr Malama: … and the distance from Chipata to Lundazi is less than 150 kilometres. I need your very serious ruling before the people of Northern Province plan to beat up their representatives.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Do not encourage people to beat up their representatives. Hon. Chota, can you continue and take into account that point of order? However, I want to correct him that the distance between Chipata and Lundazi is more than 150 kilometres.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you, please, continue.

Mr Chota: Mr Chairperson, only K2 billion was allocated for the purchase of fuel for the machinery to work on the feeder roads. This equipment is lying idle somewhere. It was only used in Kanchibiya during the last Presidential Elections. Therefore, we do not know what is happening.

Mr Chairperson, I am insisting on giving the hon. Minister facts so that he can follow up what I am trying to say.

Mr Chairperson, I understand we do not have operators to work with this machinery. However, I am sure that plans are underway to train operators so that works can commence in order for us to follow the programme which is already there. If we follow this programme, the work will be made easier.

Mr Chairperson, before I conclude, allow me to mention one or two things on health. We have two clinics, Njako and Lauleni Chita, in Northern Province that were built with staff houses at a great cost, but have no manpower.

Mr V. Mwale: Houses!

Mr Chota: These clinics have solar panels installed, but they are not manned. There are not even security guards there. They are now white elephants. Can we have these clinics manned because they are needed by our people?

Mr Chairperson, lastly, Chinese investors are prospecting for minerals in Luwingu. It is a good thing, but please before such things are done it is better to inform the people living in an area first. People are now afraid that they are going to be relocated to Chilubi Island or Eastern Province where there are just mountains.

Hon. Members from the Eastern Province: Aah! Awe!

Mr Chota: Therefore, it is better to inform the people first before you unleash any Chinese investors in the area.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr V. Mwale (Chipangali): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for giving me this opportunity to contribute on the provincial votes. However, I am going talk about Eastern Province where I come from.

Ms Cifire: Hammer!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the Bemba people of Northern Province say “Ushitasha mwana wa ndoshi.”

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: I am going to start by …

Hon. PF Members: Meaning?

The Deputy Chairperson: What does that mean?

Mr V. Mwale:  It means that, if you do not appreciate anything, you are a child of a witch.

Laughter

Mr D. Mwila: In Nyanja!

Mr V. Mwale: I am going to begin by highlighting the fair share of development that we saw in Eastern Province last year before I talk about what we want the Government to help us with this year.

Mr Chairperson, last year, we saw the initiation of the building of a new boarding school in Nyimba.

Mr I. Banda: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: It is called Mombe School. Another new high school was constructed in Kasenengwa last year and a hospital was built in Chadiza.

Mr Mbewe: Hear, hear!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, last year, a new mortuary was constructed in Petauke and works on the Lundazi Road started, that is, the whole stretch from my constituency, actually, from Chipata to Lundazi. Most of the work has been done and the contractor is still on site. For now, they are doing a good job. This is a project which we saw commence last year, but it is still on-going. We have also seen the Great East Road being worked on – potholes are being mended. The hon. Minister promised that the road may be resurfaced next year or the other year, but at least, there was some mitigation that took place to make sure that people use the road.

In Katete District we saw two ginneries erected and an agent of the National Milling Company being set up in Petauke District. This means that some of our people had a chance of getting employed. We also saw the electrification of Minga Mission in Petauke and Nyaviombo Palace in my constituency and this is the palace of Paramount Chief Kalonga Gawa Undi who has two palaces, one in Katete and the other in Chipata. The latter was the palace that was electrified.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: We also saw the connection of Lundazi and Chama to the grid. We are now tapping electricity from Malawi and so the problems of blackouts that the people in these areas used to have are no longer there. This is because we are getting electricity from Malawi and the late President, May His Soul Rest in Peace, was in Chama to launch the connection of the grid to Malawi.

Mr Magande: I was also there.

Mr V. Mwale: Yes, indeed, Hon. Magande was also there during the launch.

Mr Magande: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: He is a witness. In Chipata there was rehabilitation of township roads. Most of the roads in Chipata are tarred and Chipata looks like it is set to be a city. This is one of the achievements we saw in Chipata.

Mr Chairperson, the Chipata Airport terminal was also renovated and now it looks very good compared to the way it used to in the past. We also saw the starting of the construction of the Nyangu airstrip. On this one I urge the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport to consider allocating more money for this project next year so that it is completed.

Mr Chairperson, we want the Nyangu airstrip in Lundazi to look like the Chipata Airport and as such, we want the hon. Minister to prioritise this project. Police houses were also built and when you arrive in Chipata just after the National Pension Scheme Authority (NAPSA) building, you will see a number of houses that have been built for the policemen and women. We had talked about policemen having no accommodation for a long time and, at least, Government responded positively. Having pointed out all the achievements, I now want to talk about the things that we would like to see happening this year.

Mr Chairperson, first of all, I would like to respond to one of the hon. Members who yesterday said that the Chipata/Muchinji Railway was a white elephant and just a useless project with no benefit to the people of Chipata. I would like to say that it is an unfair remark because we, the people in the Eastern Province, have fought so much to persuade Government to make sure that they complete that project because we know that the project will bring development to the province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, at the moment, Malawi is opening up a sea route from the Indian Ocean through the Zambezi River to Shire River up on Lake Malawi. This means that we will see ships coming through to Lake Malawi. This lake is only three hours away from Chipata and therefore, having a railway line from Salima, where the lake is, to Chipata is going to be of benefit to us because the people Eastern Province will be able to export and import using that route. Therefore, I would like to say that those of you who are saying that it is a white elephant, please, wait for next year or the other year to see what benefits that railway line will bring to us. You may also wish to know that this railway line connects us to the Nacara Corridor which will also be beneficial because we will use it for imports and exports and eventually we will stop using the Tanzania and Chirundu border posts because we will have our own.

Mr Chairperson, we are very impressed with Government for coming up with the idea of the Multi Facility Economic Zones (MFEZs). We would like to see Government extending this to Eastern Province. As a province, we also want to have MFEZ because it will help us add value to the agricultural products we produce in the province.

Mr Chairperson, we are growing a lot of Tobacco in the province. At the moment, experts have predicted that we are going to get about US$50 to U$ 60 million as a province from the sale of Tobacco. If we had an MFEZ, it would add value to the Tobacco because we would export a processed product. This would mean that we would get a lot more than, for example, the US$50 million. Today, our friends in Malawi are expecting about US$1.1 billion from the export of Tobacco when most of it comes from the Eastern Province. If we can export processed tobacco, instead of exporting as raw as it is, we would get more money as a country, especially, now when we are talking about diversification. I am urging the listening Government which has brought MFEZ, to extend it to Eastern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: We would like you to help us add value to our cotton as well. In Lundazi we have a lot of gemstones and people are coming from far-flung places, of course, being escorted by conmen from Northern and Luapula Province…

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr V. Mwale: … coming to get our gemstones…

Hon. Members: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Aah! We have five people rising on a point of order. I will give it to Hon. D. Mwila. A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

 Mr D. Mwila: Mr Chairperson, I rarely stand on points of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to call hon. Members from Northern and Luapula provinces conmen? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: Aseka Chimbuya naimwe!

The Deputy Chairperson: No. I am sure he was saying that in the context of cousinship.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: So, I think that …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … his cousins will understand.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, please?

Mr V. Mwale: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, for your protection. Actually, on a serious note, what I meant is that a lot of people from the DRC come to Lundazi to buy gemstones for almost nothing. They do not pay a lot of money.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Therefore, what I am asking the Government is to put up a gemstone processing centre in this proposed MFEZ, so that we add value to them and export them. It would actually be good to see for example, people like Hon. Masebo here, wearing earrings written ‘Made in Lundazi.’

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: So, we want to see that happen instead of these Congolese, who are escorted by middlemen …

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale:  … coming to buy them cheaply and reselling them in DR Congo.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, the other thing that I want to say is that last year, in Eastern Province, we lost a lot of maize.

Reverend Sampa-Bredt: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A point of order is raised.

Laughter

Reverend Sampa-Bredt: Mr Chairperson, is the man who is speaking so well in order to emphasise the growing of tobacco in Eastern Province, when the whole world is saying tobacco is a danger to health?

Laughter

Reverend Sampa-Bredt: Why is he not proud of saying that Eastern Province needs to grow more food? Is he in order to be promoting tobacco growing in Zambia?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! A piece of advice has been given that if you smoke tobacco excessively, that could be dangerous to your health. However, I do know that, as of now, the Government has not put a stop to the growing of tobacco. So, maybe, as you debate, take that point of order into account.

Can the hon. Member continue.

Mr V. Mwale: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, thank God that tobacco is exported to China …

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: … and Northern Province.

Laughter

Mr V. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, I was saying that last year, a lot of maize grown in Eastern Province was bought by Malawians. We had a lot of businessmen from Malawi who came to buy our maize with trucks, especially in my constituency. This maize was grown by subsidised fertiliser, of course, and we lost it just like that.

Mr Chairperson, therefore, I urge the Provincial hon. Minister that this time we should be strict with people who come to buy maize from our province.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: We should safeguard the maize that we have grown. This year, we are expecting a bumper harvest in the province with the courtesy of the Government, through the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) which we also had a good share of. So, we want to protect what we have grown this year. We do not want to see our maize going out.

In concluding, Mr Chairperson, I want to say that in Chipangali this year, we are going to have about five major roads being rehabilitated. The World Bank is doing that through the Agricultural Support Programme. Most of these roads were last done during the UNIP Government. Therefore, I want to thank the Government for that. However, in the same vein, they should also work on some other roads in Lundazi, especially, the road from Mwase/Lundazi to Makhanka Clinic. They should also put a bridge at Bowe. If the Government can do that, then I will be very happy because it is going to help us to have a bigger capacity to grow a lot of tobacco, maize and cotton …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: …. for export.

Mr Chairperson, I want to thank you and please, I was just joking.

I thank you, Sir.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa (Katuba): Mr Chairperson, thank you very much for letting the voice of Central Province, represented by Jonas Shakafuswa, be heard.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: To start with, Mr Chairperson, let me say that we are grateful for the presence of our Minister, Hon. Banda. He is a good gem, and a good representative from the East, in Central Province. I know that he was born in one of the villages in Central Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: He has combined very well with the Permanent Secretary (PS) there by bringing development and harmony to Central Province.

Hon. Government Member: H ear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: So, I want to congratulate my hon. Minister and his hard-working PS for a job well done although I know it is under very difficult conditions and a limited budget but, as hon. Members from the Central Province, we understand that the resource envelope is very limited and, as a result, we understand how much we can do at a particular time.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: I also want to commend the Government, especially, the Ministry of Local Government and Housing, under the leadership of Hon. Masebo, that we were able to sink about 2,000 boreholes in Central Province …

Mrs Masebo: Hear, hear!

Ms Cifire: Ulula timvwe.

Mr Shakafuswa: Eh siniulula.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: … which for a long time did not have clean water. The Government found it fit to agree that we needed clean water and sanitation. So, I want to say that thank you very much, former Minister.

Interruptions

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, Central Province is a province near the City of Lusaka. Actually, when you talk about Lusaka City, the land on which it is built was given by Chief Mungule and her sister, Senior Chief Mukamambo.

Hon. Members: Chieftainess.

Mr Shakafuswa: Okey. Yes, Chieftainess Nkomeshya. These are the people who gave land which is the City of Lusaka today. I would have loved that people would also come up and say thank you for this land.

Mr Chairperson, I am saying this because Lusaka is a village in my constituency, but the people of Katuba are still very far from Lusaka, meaning they are still backward. Today, as I speak, it is only last year when Katuba Constituency was able to have a high school. I am grateful to the hon. Minister of Education for allocating K25 billion to Moomba High School.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: That was a very good and well-done job.

Mr Chairperson, we are talking about one high school in a very big area. If you look at my constituency, it stretches from the Great North Road to Nangoma. You have about 150 kilometres and within this distance, there is no secondary school. Yes, Muchenje High School has been on the drawing board, but because of administrative reasons or the resource envelope not being sufficient, it has not started. So, I want the hon. Minister for Central Province to work hand in hand with our constituency so that, at least, the answer of the many parents whose children are unable to go to school because of the absence of a secondary school in Katuba comes to fruition. I hope we can work hand in hand with the Ministry of Education so that, together with the parents who have already allocated 100 hectares of land in Katuba, we can come up with a school.

Mr Chairperson, while I appreciate that we still have a small resource envelope …

Hon. Member interjected.

Mr Shakafuswa: I will come to that.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1245 hours until 1430 hours.{mospagebreak}

[THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

The Deputy Chairperson: We are three minutes late because of lack of a quorum. I hope that is not an indication that we are tired. If it is, then I appeal to those who are going to speak not to drag us on and on and keep on making repetitions.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, before business was suspended, I was just talking about the need for the Government to deliberately build schools, especially a secondary school, in Katuba. I am happy to say that we are grateful to the hon. Minister of Education and the Permanent Secretary in this ministry for the gift of Moomba High School which is the first secondary school in Katuba province since it was created by God.

Hon. Member: Is Katuba now a province?

Mr Shakafuswa: Yes, it actually is.

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about roads. We have the Mungule-Keembe Road which is very important. This road can actually be used to transport enough produce to feed people in the whole of Lusaka who just sit and do not farm. So, the rehabilitation of this road is very important. However, I am happy to note that it has been included in this year’s programmes of the relevant ministry and the Permanent Secretary’s office has assured us that once the rainy season comes to an end, machinery will come to work on this road.

Mr Chairperson, I feel pity for people like Tetamashimba. Where is Mr Tetamashimba?

Mr Government Members: He is Hon. Tetamashimba.

Mr Shakafuswa: We are in a committee.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair. Why are you responding to interjections?

Mr Shakafuswa: I also pity Hon. Kabinga Pande. These people use a lot of fuel and time to go to their constituencies when Kasempa can be connected through Mumbwa. They would take a very short distance to get to Solwezi if we do the Mumbwa-Kasempa road. Rehabilitating that road will help ease travel for people going to Kasempa and people like Muchima going to ‘dead’ places.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Shakafuswa, please use the right terminology. You see, although we are in a committee, hon. Ministers are ‘honourable’ and not ‘mister’.

You may continue.

Mr Shakafuswa: It is just that people like Hon. Muchima use witchcraft and, as such, one tends to mispronounce their names. So, maybe, there was a word which the Chair could not hear nicely. I said, “Hon. Muchima.”

Laughter

Mr Shakafuswa: You know, it will help …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Do not question the Chair’s ruling. If the Chair did not hear a word, it does not matter. Just move on.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, what I was saying is that we will be able to travel easier to North-Western Province if we created a link through the Central Province. We do not have to travel to the Copperbelt and through Chingola to get to North-Western Province when we can use an easier route through Central Province. So, I am also looking at a situation where we can, maybe, work on the Mumbwa-Kasempa Road so that the people from North-Western Province do not look as tired as they look when they get here, as is the situation at the moment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, the Mukobeko Maximum Prison-Ngabwe Road can be linked to Mpongwe so that people coming from the Copperbelt can have a shortcut instead of going through Kapiri Mposhi. This is also one of the roads which should be looked at. Over and above that, what we should also be looking at is the Nampundwe-Blue Lagoon Road. This road should reach Nambala so that it can ease the movement of our people.

Hon. Cifire, who is not here, was excited when I talked about the boreholes in Central Province. Yes, 2,000 boreholes were sunk and, I think, even the constituency of the Vice-President could have had about fifty because at that time, he was not in a position to bargain. My constituency only got 100 boreholes. What we saying is that even though we got 2,000 boreholes, our constituencies are still in need of water because 100 boreholes are not enough for a place as big as Katuba. This is just a drop in the ocean. I would like to appeal to the hon. Minister for more boreholes to be sunk in Katuba.

I have another problem in my constituency. The Chunga Stream, which is an effluent of the dirt of the people of Lusaka, passes through my constituency, Mwembeshi and Nangoma but we have no boreholes in the whole of that stretch. However, I am proud to say that we have made a deliberate move to be allocating half of the Constituency Development Fund (CDF) towards water and sanitation. So, this year, we are putting in about K500 million towards satisfying this area.

I also want to talk about Hon. Kambwili who was excited with the issue of the nineteen headmen, who are not even headmen, but were sponsored to say that the roads in my area are not in a good state. Road construction cannot be done in the rainy season because it would just be a waste of resources.

The hon. Minister for Central Province wanted to give me the equipment to do the Mungule Road, but we discovered that we could not do a good job in the rainy season. Therefore, the hon. Minister has promised that once the rain is over, he is going to work on our roads. For those people who are excited, I am saying the road is going to be done and as the hon. Minister responds, he will inform us where the Muchenje High School is because my father, who happens to be the hon. Minister of Education, is taking proper care of Katuba and Muchenje High School is going to be properly worked on because he is a very caring father.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, Katuba has built Lusaka with its sand. The time I will change my mind, there will be no building in Lusaka because I will make the sand very expensive.

In the meantime, sand and limestone are ingredients of cement. Therefore, as we are talking, we should also be looking at where Katuba Cement Factory will be instead of letting sand become cheap. We would rather use it to maximise value for the people of Katuba. We will be working and knocking at the doors of the relevant offices to ensure that we utilise this sand. I am actually a small industrialist.

Mr Bwalya: Mulungushi Textiles.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mulungushi Textiles.

Hon. MMD Member: Finally!

Mr Shakafuswa: Who is saying finally?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Ignore them and address the Chair.

Mr Shakafuswa: Mr Chairperson, in concluding, as we are winding up debate and going back to our constituencies, as the National Secretary of MMD, Hon. Katele Kalumba put it, let us leave our tape recorders and come here as brothers. Do not thrive and make a name on telling lies and reporting your friends. This country has to move forward; and for it to do that, we need to move as a group. Do not make a name out of pulling someone down. Make a name out of efficiency because this nation needs people who are hardworking and can move the nation, but not at the expense of pulling other people down.

As for me, I will be back and we will still work together up to 2011.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for allowing me to join in the debate. In my debate, I will be talking and re-emphasising the theme that has been very consistent with me on this Floor, which is the inadequate or lack of equitable distribution of resources. This is in contributing my debate on the Vote of the Copperbelt Province.

Mr Chairperson, I would wish this Government to prove me wrong in my assertions that the way resources are being distributed currently, is not equitable. In particular, I am referring to issues like roads on the Copperbelt.

Mr Chairperson, I sat there listening to Hon. Mabenga as he boasted of how popular and powerful the MMD is in Western Province. Admittedly, he can say that. In the same breath, he followed it up with how many and how much resources were going to the Western Province in terms of schools, roads, bridges and many other things. I can connect the two and say that because the MMD is very strong, it follows that the resources are going there as well.

The opposite is true on the Copperbelt. Since the Copperbelt is the stronghold of the Opposition, Patriotic Front to be very specific, we find that resources are not being channeled to the repair and rehabilitation of the infrastructure. I wish to challenge the hon. Minister for Copperbelt to look seriously into this issue and prove me wrong this year. If what I have been saying on this Floor is not correct, let the hon. Minister and his Government prove me wrong. For a change, this year, let us see infrastructure on the Copperbelt being repaired especially the roads.

You will note that in all the other areas, we have contractors running around, but there is not a single contractor on the Copperbelt except, probably, in Mpongwe, Masaiti and Lufwanyama. Again, that is where the MMD is strong.

Mr Chairperson, my appeal is that I be proved wrong in this respect …

Mr Namulambe: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Namulambe: This is my first point of order since I came to this House. Is the hon. Member of Parliament for Nchanga in order to talk about Mpongwe when the Government is taking the projects to all parts of Zambia regardless of the political affiliation of the people there? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: As you debate, Mr Simuusa, take that point of order into account.

You may continue.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, I am talking about infrastructure and I have challenged the Government to prove me wrong if what I am saying is not correct. Then, we will come back to the Floor of this House and say you did and it has been corrected.

The other thing that I would like to advise the Government is that when we make promises, let us fulfill them. Let us not be political in the way we administer development.

Mr Chairperson, in today’s The Post Newspaper, on the front page headlines, my predecessor in Nchanga, Mr Richard Kazala has said and I quote:

“People on the Copperbelt have lost hope for President Rupiah Banda.’

That is one of their sons. If I was the one who said that, there would have been serious heckling from the right. However, I wish to go further and say that people on the Copperbelt and Nchanga, in particular, are saying that President Rupiah Banda has failed because he has not fulfilled his campaign promises. There are very specific examples and one of them is mealie-meal. Mealie-meal, right now, in Chingola, is costing K75,000.00 and yet we were promised that it was going to be reduced.

Mr Chairperson, there are two specific things that I would like to refer to where people in my constituency - miners and ex-miners - are constantly accusing the President of failure and that is on the matter of terminal benefits. President Rupiah Banda, just before the elections in Nchanga, on 28th October, 2008, held a big rally in Chingola and promised that if he was voted for, he would make sure that all the terminal benefits accruing to the miners and ex-miners were be paid.

Mr Chairperson, he was voted into office but everyday, I get a queue of miners asking about their terminal benefits.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to advise the Government, through you, that President Rupiah Banda should fulfill his campaign promises which the people of Nchanga are demanding of him.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Give him chance to debate.

Mr Simuusa: Mr Chairperson, that confirms what I have been saying. The people on your right are saying those people did not vote for him. That is why he is not fulfilling his promises on the Copperbelt. That is very wrong. For as long as you continue like that, come 2011, this Government will not go back into power.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Mr Simuusa: After my by-election, I remember that the late President Mwanawasa tasked the MMD Government to find out why they lost by such a big margin in Nchanga. Indeed, he tasked them and gave them the job of finding or regaining popularity at whatever cost.

I am giving this Government free advice that if they want hope on the Copperbelt, let them be genuine and stop using such desperate tactics which they are using. Let them give people what they want.

Mr Chairperson as we are talking now, many people that have bought houses on the Copperbelt - the miners - have not been given their title deeds.

Mr Chairperson, we are talking about the Citizens Economic Empowerment Commission that people should benefit from but, in the meantime, title deeds on the Copperbelt have not been issued.

Mr Chairperson, we shall wait and, knowing the way the Government operates, a month before the elections, they will come like heroes with title deeds in their pockets and start distributing them. Sir, those tactics are too late. The Government should just deliver what the people want by giving them title deeds.

The other issue I would like to talk about is the Workers Compensation Fund Control Board on the Copperbelt. I think there are a lot of workers who are still getting K5,000 and K10,000 per month respectively. The Government promised and committed itself to increase its contribution workers, but nothing so far has been done. I urge the hon. Minister responsible to look at this issue very seriously.

In winding up my debate, Mr Chairperson, I would like to join the previous debaters who talked about the windfall tax. I remember in my maiden speech, I alluded to the fact that one of the biggest and most painful things for me as a Member of Parliament, engineer and citizen of Zambia who has travelled all over the world, is to see the way we have failed in mining and yet God has blessed us with so much wealth. We have the best copper, cobalt, emeralds and coal deposits in the world and yet we are ranked amongst the poorest.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: This annoys me a lot. We need to address the issue of mining as a nation. When hon. Members on your right remove windfall tax, this saddens me because I will remain a disappointed man as we are not, indeed, bringing the resources to where they belong.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, let me talk about the Ndola Lime Company Limited. There was a clause on this Floor of the House talking about industrial minerals. We are failing as Zambians to develop the natural resources in making cement, especially using lime. I would like to challenge the Government and, indeed, the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development by asking why Ndola Lime Company Limited has not started producing cement up to now. It is a known fact that Ndola Lime Company Limited is failing to produce quality lime because of the poor stone. The poor quality lime is currently stockpiled and thrown away at Ndola Lime Company Limited. However, this limestone is still good enough to make cement. At the moment, Ndola Lime Company Limited has more than 3 million tonnes of limestone and so no cost can be added to this if they start processing.  If the Government spent about US $10 million to rehabilitate or modify one of the kilns, we can start producing cement at Ndola Lime Company Limited and the cost of cement can come down to less than K30,000 per bag. This is a known fact. Now, I wonder why we have failed as Zambians to produce cement and still want to bring foreigners to come and produce cement at a cost of K75,000 per bag.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa: I think this is inconsistency and lack of sincerity. I would like to challenge the Government by saying that if we have to be consistent and serious, we should not say one thing on one hand and do another thing on the other because if we do this, we will fail to do what the people want.

With these few remarks, Mr Chairperson, I wish to challenge the Government and the hon. Deputy Minister for the Copperbelt Province to prove me wrong by the way things will be done this year on the Copperbelt. I will still stand again on this Floor of the House to see whether I have been proved wrong or right.

Thank you, Sir.

Hon. PF Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile (Malole): Thank you, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Floor.

However, I want to state that my contribution will be biased towards Northern Province.

Hon. Independent Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: I am resigned to support the Vote for the Northern Province because I have no option as nothing will change.

Mr Chairperson, Northern Province is the biggest province in the country as it has already been stated, hence it deserves more resources than what has been allocated. This trend has been the same for sometime now.

Northern Province has the potential to immensely contribute to the economic advancement of this country, especially in agriculture and tourism. One wonders why the province with so much potential has been neglected. The province has good soils and adequate rainfall to do agriculture. Unfortunately, the Government has not taken the initiative to ensure that adequate farming inputs such as fertiliser and seed are not only delivered on time but supplied in large quantities to enable most farmers access them. We have been told today that Eastern Province grows a lot of tobacco but, unfortunately, we have not been told what type of tobacco.

Laughter

Mr Munaile: It could be…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Give him chance to debate.

You may continue.

Mr Munaile: Unfortunately, the people of Eastern Province fail to pronounce the word “dagga”. They have names such as “Daka”.

Laughter

Mr Munaile: Mr Chairperson, Northern Province has perennial rivers but, unfortunately, it is not encouraged to do irrigation farming. We have rivers like the Chambeshi, Lukulu, Kalungwishi, Mutotoshi/Kalungu, Luangwa and Lubansenshi just to mention but a few and yet we cry that we do not have enough food. We have depended on provinces where there is less rainfall.

Mr Chairperson, the province produces enough rice in districts like Chinsali…

Mr Daka entered the Assembly Chamber.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

Mr Munaile: … Chilubi, Kaputa, Mungwi and Isoka. The rice that is grown by the farmers in these districts, unfortunately, only ends up in the hands of the private buyers. The Government does not buy rice, hence our farmers are not encouraged because they do not see the benefits. It was going be better for rice to be sold to the Food Reserve Agency. The hon. Member for Kalomo Central, Mr Muntanga, the other day said that they only know maize as food. I do not know what the rest is. If our people are encouraged…

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Munaile: On what?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You are not the Chair. You wait for the point of order to be raised.

Mr Muyanda: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Malole in order to debate the hon. Member for Kalomo Central, Mr Muntanga, when the guidelines are crystal clear that we should not debate hon. Members who are not in the House? The hon. Member for Kalomo Central is not here to defend himself. I need your serious ruling, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: The Chairperson did not hear any mention of Mr Muntanga.

Hon. Members: He did!

Hon. Members: Daka!

The Deputy Chairperson: I do not remember hearing Muntanga. It is, therefore, difficult to rule because the point of order refers to Mr Muntanga who I think was not mentioned.

 All the same, let me seize the opportunity to advise hon. Members that we suspended our rules in order that if we do not complete our business, we go on until tomorrow morning. I do not see why we should actually go that late. Points of order will derail our work. I think that we should minimise unnecessary points of order. You may continue.

Mr Munaile: Mr Chairperson, I thought I was amplifying what Hon. Muntanga said. I was not criticising him. I was merely driving a point home and I expected the hon. Member of Parliament to listen.

 Mr Chairperson, the people of Malole Constituency, where I come from, grow a lot of rice. Year in and year out, the FRA promises the people that they will buy the rice, but does not. I want to challenge the FRA to consider buying rice from Malole so that our people can benefit from their labour.

Mr Chairperson, the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP) has not performed according to expectations. Many hon. Members of this august House have alluded to this. Mr Chairperson, I want to implore the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives to ensure that more is done so that this programme is not politicised, but benefits those that need the fertiliser.

I want to thank the Government for the manner in which they want to tap the tourism potential in the Northern Province. However, this will only be translated into reality with commitment.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: The Northern Province has parks such as the Bangweulu in Kanchibiya Constituency, which my late colleague, Hon. Kanyanyamina, spoke so much about. We have the Nsumbu in Chimbamilonga and Nyika in Isoka East, where the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources comes from. Added to this, is the Chishimba, Kalambo, Kabwelume and the Lumangwe falls. All these are potential tourist attractions which can be used to the benefit of this country.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Mr Chairperson, in order to get the benefits from these tourist attractions, the road infrastructure in these areas must be improved for easy access.

Mr Chairperson, as regards health, the province requires more health centres because it is vast and the health posts are far apart. Districts like Chilubi and Mungwi do not even have district hospitals. In Chilubi District, for example, a patient referred to a hospital will have to travel 146 kilometres to Luwingu or eighty kilometres to Lubwe Mission in Samfya District. Those are long distances.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to briefly talk about the roads we have in the province. The Mwanawasa Bridge will be of no benefit to the Zambian people if the Mufulira/Mansa/Luwingu/Kasama/Isoka Road is not tarred.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: If this road is tarred, those who are in mining on the Copperbelt can transport their copper to Dar-es-Salaam using that route, as it is the shortest. The building of the Mwanawasa Bridge will be no use if that road is not worked on. The people of the Northern Province, particularly in Malole and Mungwi, were promised the Mbesuma Bridge by the late President and the current one. We are waiting for this to become a reality.

Major Chizhyuka: That is wisdom.

Mr Munaile: Mr Chairperson, we have the Kasama/Isoka, Chinsali/Kasama and Kasama/Mporokoso to Kaputa roads. We have the Mbala/Nakonde, Mporokoso/Kawambwa, Luwingu/Nsombo and Nseluka/Kayambi roads. These are critical roads to our province. Therefore, we want to implore the hon. Minister of Works and Supply to ensure that adequate resources are directed to these roads.

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: In the same vein, I will be failing if I do not thank the Government for giving us the Kalungu Bridge. It is a well-done job. We are pleased. However, ensure that the Safwa is also considered.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I wish to request the hon. Minister of Energy and Water development – I cannot see him here – to help us to upgrade the Chishimba and the Lunzuwa hydro power stations. We have the capacity to generate our own power and feed the Northern Province and the surrounding provinces but, alas, you spend all the money on Kariba North Bank, Itezhi tezhi and whatever you want to call them. What about the Northern Province? We have the capacity if only you could put money in the Kalungwishi Project that you talk so much about. We want to have electricity soon.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: Hon. Minister of Finance and National Planning, we thank you for increasing the CDF. However, please, ensure that we get it when we need it. Releasing it in December is too late. We want it in the dry season so that we are able to make use of it.

The hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives, we want the Mpika College of Agriculture to be upgraded to a university.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Munaile: It has what it takes to be a university. The hon. Members of Parliament from the Northern Province are committed to ensuring that this is done. We can even put our CDF in that venture so that we do what we want to do.
 
I thank you, Sir.

Major Chizhyuka (Namwala): Mr Chairperson, I rise to support the Vote on the Southern Province, the land of milk and honey undulating on three platforms - one high and two low. This is a province under siege. It is under siege because in 1902 when Cecil John Rhodes was laying the railway line spreading from Cape Town to Cape Cairo, in the Southern Province, they laid a continuous barbed wire line stretching from Livingstone all the way up to Mulungushi in the Central Province, thereby, taking the best pieces of land to be under the charge of the colonialists up to today.

The Southern Province is under siege because in 1956, when it was necessary to light the industries of Zambia - the mines and the suburbs - the Gwembe Valley had to be flooded with the waters of the Kariba Dam where the people of the Southern Province lost their blood and their relatives.

It is under siege because, together with the North-Western and Western provinces, we have borne the brunt of the fight for the liberation of Southern Africa. Names like Imusho, Ngwezi, Kalobolelwa, Sesheke, Mambova, Livingstone and Kalongola, all the way along the valley, bore the brunt in order that Zimbabwe, Angola, Namibia, South Africa and Mozambique could be free.

 It is under siege in three distinct areas. One hoped that at a time when the country got its independence, the Southern Province ikwashantila maila. The Southern Province iko kompolepopwe myungu ochola.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: What do you mean?

Major Chizhyuka: It means that the maize is poured on the ground. When a visitor comes to visit, you first break the cob of maize while the pumpkin simmers.

It means it is a land of plenty where the men and women grow tall, big and bouncy because of the nature of the job. They have to till the land in the morning and herd the cattle.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: That is Southern Province under siege. We have borne the brunt for the electricity of this country. We had hoped that in return, the Bottom Road which is the road that stretches from Feira to Livingstone, proceeding to Senior Chief Inyambo’s Palace in Sesheke District, would be considered. We have noted the amount of work that is being done on the Bottom Road, but we think that the Government can do a lot more.

It is under siege because we had hoped that because the white man took most of the land along the plateau when, we, the southerners from Southern Province, have a black Government in power, the black African Government would take cognisance of the amount of siege that the Southern Province has suffered in these three dimensions. Alas! Even when a black man is at the helm of national leadership, we have continued to suffer even up to this time, up to this month,.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to read from Part II of the Action-Taken Report on the Report of the Committee on Delegated Legislation and I quote:

 “Ministry of Tourism, Environment and National Resources
 
 Para 5 to Page 14

Q. After the Committee’s tour of Mufunta Game Management Area in Kaoma, Western Province, Lusaka South Local Forest No. F26, Ntobolole Local Forest in Mazabuka, Southern Province, Mosi-O-Tunya National Park No. 17, Livingstone and the Imusho family, they urged ZAWA to find an amicable solution concerning communities settled in game management areas, particularly those living in Mufunta GMA in Kaoma, Western Province and Mosi-O-Tunya National Park in Livingstone.

MUFUNTA GAME MANAGEMENT AREA IN KAOMA, WESTERN PROVINCE

a. The Committee’s concern regarding human settlement in Game Management Areas and in particular to the Mufunta Game Management Area in Kaoma is noted. In this regard, the Committee may wish to know that ZAWA has written a letter to the Imangabwa, Deputy to Senior Chief Amukena of Kaoma, explaining that the people living in Mufunta Game  Management Area will not be relocated, …”

I would like to emphasise that point. This is from the Action-Taken Report of the Government of the Republic of Zambia, headed by His Excellency the President, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, and it reads

“… the people living in Mufunta Game Management Area will not be relocated, but will be allowed to stay in the GMA”.
 
Sir, the Government is assuring us that the people in that game management area will stay because it goes further to say:

“Furthermore, a management plan is about to be developed for the GMA with financial support from the World Wide Fund for Nature. Section 7 (2) (d) of the Zambia Wildlife Act No. 12 of 1998 provides for the development of management plans for GMAs. The procedure for developing management plans is participatory and includes local communities. These plans include wildlife habitats, settlements and agricultural zones”.

Mr Chairperson, at the time when the Government was assuring Mr Speaker’s Committee of the Parliament of the Republic of Zambia that people could stay in a game management area, that same Government was removing (through the Office of the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources) Tonga and Lozi people from Sichifulo GMA.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: There were 8,500 people at the time they were giving this assurance.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

We want you people to debate, but if you revert to an issue on which a decision has already been made, then it becomes very difficult for Presiding Officers to move because a decision on that was already made. You were debating on what was contained in Mr Speaker’s Report on that other place, but I think Sichifulo is an issue that has already been decided. Can you debate other things, hon. Member?

Major Chizhyuka: Sir, I would like to quote from the Lozi National Anthem:

“Balichaba lihabali nyaza. Kuluna kihae, mililateha lina limasimu, lina ni linuka, fasi laluna …”.

Mr Mabenga: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, a point of order is raised.

Mr Mabenga: I rise on a very serious point of order. The Lozi words coming from that hon. Member of Parliament are not giving the correct meaning because of the poor pronunciation. Is he in order to try to say words that he cannot pronounce well and in the process not make meaning at all? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: The problem with that point of order is that even the Chairperson himself is not able to tell whether the pronunciation is right or wrong.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Therefore, under those circumstances, I will ask Major Chizhyuka to continue, but with the correction that there is no Lozi National Anthem. There is only one Zambian National Anthem written in several languages. Can you continue, hon. Member?

Major Chizhyuka: In English it means that even if other nations are not impressed with our land, to us it is our home and we love our land. It has fields, gardens and rivers. That is our land.

Sir, I use those words directly to mean our land in Southern Province. I hope that those that have the responsibility to govern our country for the time being, will understand the emotions that are associated with our land in Southern Province, given these three dimensions that I have explained regarding the siege that we have suffered.

Mr Chairperson, we have a set of roads which need attention. There is a road from Kalomo to Dundumwezi all the way to Itezhi-tezhi.

This Government should take cognisance and think seriously about that road. We also have problems associated with the network in Chief Chikanta’s area. This is one of the major producers of maize in our country. I hope that, in the process, the Government will take cognisance of the fact that in Southern Province, we are the largest producers - we keep wondering who the biggest producers of cattle between the Lozis and the Tongas are. Hon. Milupi will rise on this Floor and say that they have more cattle. I think that those are the few remnants of cattle which they picked on the way as they were coming from Namwala.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: However, we do have a preponderance of the numbers in this area. I hope that as we go into zoning of cattle so that we can start exporting, the hon. Minister of Agriculture and Co-operatives in charge of livestock development will be able to interact with us and our colleagues from Western Province because we have the capacity to deal with this matter.

Mr Chairperson, in Mazabuka, we also have problems associated with land in Kabanje. I was being told by the hon. Member for Mazabuka that this issue is still outstanding, hon. Minister of Lands.

Hon. Government Members interjected.

Major Chizhyuka: You will understand that I usually stand and debate on such issues.

Interruptions

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, we need to deal with the issue of land in Kabanje so that those people who won the battle against Zambia Sugar Company can now go about their business of cultivation and rearing cattle in peace. I do hope that the representation that we are sending to Southern Province Headquarters will understand that the province is under siege. As they come to the centre, they should be able to give correct facts to His Honour the Vice-President and the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources so that they can make their decisions based on researched information. That way, our country will be ruled properly. I want the Government to understand that they should listen to the cries of the people of Southern Province.

Mr Chairperson, in 1963, it had to take the former President, Dr Kaunda, to side with the African National Congress (ANC) president, Mr Nkumbula, in order for him to become the first Republican President of this country. In 2011 - two years from now - we shall stand as the deciding factor as to who is going to rule this country.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I want to emphasise that point and you should bear that in your mind even as you rule us as Government. In 2011, on the basis of what happened in 1963, UPND will decide on who should rule this country.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, on a point of order.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Mulongoti: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member debating, who heard for himself yesterday that Tongas from the Southern Province have migrated to many other provinces in Zambia, in order to keep talking about Southern Province being for Tongas? My view is that he is disadvantaging the other Tongas who have gone to other provinces. Is he in order to debate along those lines?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! I do recall that a similar point of order was raised during the course of this week. The Chairperson said that it should not be the case because this is one Zambia one Nation. Therefore, people can live anywhere they want. There can be Lozis and Ngonis in Southern Province and Tongas can also live in Mkushi or anywhere around the country. He is expressing a point of view, but I suppose the hon. Member should take that point of order into consideration as he debates.

Major Chizhyuka: Mr Chairperson, I understand that Zambia is a unitary State. It is the rules under Cap 12, which I have read, which state that Zambia is unitary State. In cases such as those of game management areas (GMAs), the Tonga and Lozi people in Sichifulo should not have been removed because the laws that govern us are the same. The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources should also have been removing those people in GMAs in Northern Province where she comes from.

Laughter

Major Chizhyuka: Now, I realise that after all, it may not be a unitary State.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has elapsed.

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Mr Chairperson, in debating on the Vote for the Copperbelt Province, I would like to take the words that the hon. Member of Parliament for Nchanga used as mine. 

Interruptions

Mr Mushili: Mr Chairperson, I think the Copperbelt Province has remained underdeveloped for political reasons.

Interruptions

Mr Mushili: I think this is because of having a stronghold for the Patriotic Front in the province. As a person coming from the corporate world, I would like to talk about the MMD Government and its leadership. Each year, when you prepare the Budget, you do it to fulfill what you have budgeted for. At the end of the year, you are supposed to draw up a checklist to see whether what you budgeted for has been dealt with or not. That is what leadership is all about.

Sir, the MMD Government should do that as well. I would like to challenge the MMD Government to draw up a list of what they budgeted for last year and the years before. This will enable them to see what has been done and what has not been done. You would find a lot of failures. You would even find that the works that were funded are incomplete. It is not because of the global financial crunch that they are always talking about. It is because of their incompetence and lack of strategies to implement what they budgeted for. That is why, sometimes, they under budget or over budget on certain items.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to draw you back to the time when the late Mr Kebby Musokotwane was alive. There was a time when we did not have foreign currency in the country. One day, we went to visit a certain school and found cobwebs in the Headmaster’s office. As we were discussing, whatever we would ask the Headmaster, he would keep on saying that it was due to lack of forex. Mr Musokotwane even asked this Headmaster whether he needed forex to have the cobwebs in his office removed. It was really an embarrassment to that Headmaster.

Sir, in the same vein, I have heard a lot of hon. Ministers in this House taking the global financial crisis as a defence mechanism for their incompetence and for not fulfilling what they have budgeted for. 

Do you want to use the global financial crisis as a defence mechanism for not doing some roads which you budgeted for? Can you use that as a reason for not fulfilling what you budgeted for? Do you want to use the global financial crisis as an excuse not to procure the contractor to do the roads in Ndola Central Constituency which were budgeted for more than one and a half years ago? Can you use this as a defence mechanism not to fulfill what you budgeted for? The money was available but it was sent back to the Treasury. What are you talking about?

Do you want to use the global financial crunch as a defence mechanism for not budgeting for the Copperbelt to recruit more teachers when they are still inadequate on the Copperbelt? Can you still use the global financial crunch as the reason for this? These are only a few situations I have cited to show you that you should not come to this House and expose your incompetence and ignorance in doing certain things under the umbrella of the global financial crisis.

Mr Chairperson, the Copperbelt has got similar problems. The lack of road infrastructure is one of the biggest problems that we, Copperbelt dwellers, have. I would like to thank the Government, on a good note, for the initiative of buying pieces of equipment to maintain our road network. However, I doubt whether they have the capacity to use them in the right way. We lack the ability to use them.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to say here that, unfortunately, the British type of education that was brought to this country has contributed to our inability to implement certain things. This is why we have even gone to the extent of amending certain laws which were well meant. In the British System, everyone was told to go to school, learn as much as they could and come back for employment and remain employed until their death. They did not teach us about entrepreneurship. They did not tell us about creating employment for ourselves. This is probably the reason the people of Zambia have this indoctrination embedded in them.

This is also probably one of the reasons why the leadership is not even assisting the few Zambians who have the ability to buy certain companies in the mining sector. This is why this Government encourages employment creation so that we remain employees and never be employers because of the British type of education system.

Mr Chairperson, why should an amendment, which was made last year, just a few months ago, be changed for the sake of some individuals? You are going to suffer the consequences of your decision.

Mr Chairperson, the people of the Copperbelt have lost jobs. Through you, Sir, I would like to ask the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development to find solutions to the problem that the people of Ndola are facing, especially those who were working for Bwana Mkubwa Mine, which belongs to First Quantum Minerals. The plant which was installed to process oxides only is now a white elephant. I would like him to find a solution because that plant will never work again.

Mr M. B. Mwale: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Mushili: It will never work again because we do not have the acids ...

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr M. B. Mwale: Mr Chairperson, is that hon. Member in order to mislead this nation by not informing it that Bwana Mkubwa has no ore resource of its own, and this is why it has closed? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: There is no ruling really but just to inform Mr Mushili that the hon. Minister says Bwana Mkubwa has no ore resource of its own.

You may continue.

Mr Mushili: Mr Chairperson, I have ably and very frequently interacted with the top management of First Quantum Minerals.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mushili: When First Quantum Minerals first to came to Zambia, I housed the directors for thirteen months. I am still interacting with them. The reason Bwana Mkubwa is closed is that they do not have the acid soluble ores for which that processing plant was set. It can only process the oxides and not any sulphites. There is no mine near where First Quantum minerals is mining. Therefore, the processing plant will remain a white elephant unless the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development finds a solution. It is not because of lack of money that the plant has shut down. The people of Ndola will still remain unemployed. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Look at the time.

Mr Mushili: Yes, I thought I had enough time.

Mr Chairperson, the problems of the people on the Copperbelt still remain the same.

Mr Mulongoti got up from his seat.

Mr Mushili: I am asking the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, Hon. Mike Mulongoti, who is just walking out, please, if you could just stay a bit longer, not to leave the equipment in the provincial centres with Permanent Secretaries. They should not have the authority to decide where the pieces of equipment are going to work. Delegate the authority to other stakeholders in the province.

Hon. MMD Members: Like who?

Mr Mushili: You have to come up with a guideline.

Hon. MMD Members: Aah!

Mr Mushili: If a Permanent Secretary does not like certain districts, you may find that the equipment will not go and work in that area.

Mr Chairperson, I have decided, together with the stakeholders, to apportion part of the CDF to buy some more equipment so that we help to enhance the road maintenance in my constituency. 
 
Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, I would like the Government, through you, to ensure that they go back for training on how to implement projects that they budgeted for because this is what has been lacking. This is why, up to now, the works are not completed. Sometimes, it is not necessarily because of lack of money but because of incompetence from that side of the House. That is the schooling that they need. I am advising as someone coming from the corporate world.

Hon. MMD Member: Yama minibus?

Laughter

Mr Mushili: I am asking, through you, Sir, that they go back to school and be taught how to implement the projects that they budget for.

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Milupi (Luena): Mr Chairperson, because of time, I shall be brief and, therefore, I shall not speak for more than fifteen minutes.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! You are entitled to only fifteen minutes.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, in the debates on the Floor of this House, I have heard of so many promising and good things happening in many parts of this country.

Sir, yesterday, I was listening to the hon. Member from North-Western Province, Hon. Humphrey Mwanza, talk about the development which has gone there. In fact, it is stinking development.  I have also heard those hon. Colleagues from the Eastern Province and many others talk about the good things in their areas. I was beginning to get worried that, maybe, I was in the wrong place. I remembered the reason for that was that I was from the Western Province which is officially declared as the poorest and least developed province in this country. The average poverty levels in Zambia as given by Government statistics is 64 per cent. Generally, in rural areas, it is given as 74 per cent. Yet, in Western Province, it is 84 per cent.

Mr Chairperson, I asked myself why. I had to find out what Zambia is and what we are, as Zambia, because, in the Constitution, it is very clear that it is a unitary State. In fact, it says it is a unitary, indivisible, democratic sovereign State.

Mr Chairperson, many of us understand what a sovereign State is. We know what being democratic is and we understand what indivisible means, but there are very few people who understand the origin and meaning of the word unitary. Let me explain where it comes from.

Sir, the students of politics will tell you that there are three types of nation states. There is what is called a monolithic state. Examples of such states are France, Spain, Portugal, South Africa and Zambabwe. Then, we have federal states and examples of those are Nigeria, United States of America and Germany. The last type is called unitary state which defines a state that is composed of two or more parts that have come together and been united. Examples of such countries are Tanzania which is a combination of Zanzibar and Tanganyika, and the United Kingdom. Zambia is also a unitary State. Why is Zambia called a unitary State? It is because in 1964, two states came together to form what is now Zambia. It was Northern Rhodesia and Barotseland.

Mrs Masebo: Do not take us backwards.

Mr Milupi: I am not taking you back. I think we need to listen so that we understand where the issues come from. Why, therefore, if Barotseland sacrificed its national status to give birth to Zambia, does Barotseland find itself, today, to be the poorest province in this country and yet, it was not like that before?

Sir, I have stated on the Floor of this House that and I have given a bit of history of how the wealth was before the coming of the white man during the colonial era and what has happened. When we look at this province is now engulfed in poverty and underdevelopment. Yet, the budget that has been allocated to this province this year is K28,749,615,883.

Mr Chairperson, when you look at this budget, K22 billion of that money is for emoluments and what is called general administration. I have done the arithmetic. That leaves only K6.6 for other things.

Mr Chairperson, in Uganda where you have a Government that recognises that we should have equitable development and that, at any given stage, there would be others more developed than others, they have come up with a system where at ministerial level, there is a separate hon. Minister that looks at the least developed part of the country, specifically, Karamoja in Northern Uganda. The idea is to bring it to the level of the average. That is a caring Government.

Mr Chairperson, for how long are we going to be wallowing in this poverty in Western Province? I speak with passion on this because I am a Copperbelt person and I recognise that to get what you want, you must fight for it. That is what we know.

Mr Chairperson, let us look at education. Many statistics available from the Government indicate that that Western Province is the worst in terms of progression from Grade 7 to 8, Grade 9 to 10, and Grade 12 to tertiary education and many others. For how long are we going to continue with this kind of poverty?

Mr Chairperson, I want to say this to my brothers, the hon. Minister of Education and his deputy who have been roundly praised in this House for what they are doing. My standard is simple because when they assumed office, these are the statistics that we had. Therefore, when they leave office, we want to see how much they will have impacted on these statistics so that in terms of education, Western Province leaves the bottom, where it is, to somewhere near the million point.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, let me talk very briefly about floods. I am thankful to His Honour, the Vice-President for the answer he gave to my question this morning that, at long last, he is going to visit us. The reason these floods are devastating now is that they have fallen on people that already impoverished. There is no reserve.  Hence, this year, we are going to have massive hunger. Every time I raise the issue of hunger in the province, someone will stand up and say “We are feeding ourselves and we are doing everything.” The people that live there are not lazy people because they cultivate. Because of lack of canals to drain away the water from the upper lands, their fields are flooded in early December.

Mr Chairperson, we can do better than this. Sir, let me talk about cattle.

Sir, the people of Western Province have a competitive advantage in terms of the rearing of cattle. There is a restocking exercise that this Government is going to introduce in animal disease-free zones. On behalf of the people of Western Province, let me state here and now that we are laying a claim, as a province, to the first animal disease-free zone that should be established in Zambia. Therefore, I want our hon. Ministers - both Cabinet and Deputy Ministers - who are from that province to take this challenge in every meeting they have as a Government and ensure that the first disease-free zone is established in Western Province as a means of alleviating the poverty that we talk about.

Mr Chairperson, in addition, we need assistance in rice growing to ensure that we also feed ourselves and create wealth for ourselves.

Barotseland is a place that was renowned for beauty. The people were renowned for the love they had for everybody. They are renowned, also, for the respect they have for the people. The beauty of the land can be seen even today. That is what moved our poets of that era to compose our National Anthem.

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: They said …

Mr Muyanda: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Milupi: Why?

The Deputy Chairperson: Why are you asking?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: You are a Chairperson of a committee and, therefore, you cannot do that. Barotseland then is now Western Province. So, use the right terminology.

You may continue.

Mr Muyanda: Western Province!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I am referring to a name that is in the Yellow Book.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Is there Barotseland in the Yellow Book?

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Yes, Mr Chairperson, I will make reference to Head 94, Programme 2, Activity 04 – Barotse Royal Treaty Obligation.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Can someone look at that Head and confirm whether there is Barotseland or not?

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear! Barotseland is there.

Mr Milupi: It is there in the Yellow Book and K120 million has been provided for that particular activity. Perhaps that question may not arise. As our land, we say it through our poets: “Bulozi …

Major Chizhyuka: Eni!

Mr Milupi: … fasi la bondata aluna, …

Major Chizhyuka: Eni sha!

Mr Milupi: …halamafasi kaufela, lelinde kilona, …

Major Chizhyuka: Eni kilona!

Mr Milupi: … kimolupepezwi, …

Major Chizhyuka: Kimona!

Mr Milupi: … kimoluhulezi …

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear! Kimona!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr Milupi: … milwamilata …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Order!

You can go out if you do not want to listen.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Where have you ever seen hon. Members debating and behaving like that?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: It is not right.

You may continue.

Mr Milupi: I will translate for the others that do not understand Lozi. It means: “Barotseland, land of our fathers, among all the lands, it is the most beautiful. It is where we were born, it is where we grew up and we love our land.”

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: However, this is the land that lies desolate. Why is it so? Have we not been supportive of the Government? The answer is no.

Let me remind this House that immediately after the elections, when we were counting votes, many eyes from the east looked to the west. From the north, they looked to the west to see who would go into power. Many people would say, “Let us see what is going to happen in Shang’ombo and Sikongo.” One voice from the North-Western Province, Ben, son of Tetamashimba said, “No, that is our pond.” May I remind the Government that, today, your pond lies desolate. You cannot reach Shang’ombo because there is no means of communication. You cannot reach Sikongo ...

Mr Sing’ombe: That is where we are going!

Mr Milupi: … where you go the last votes that put you on that side of the House.

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: What programmes are you going to come up with to ensure that your pond reaches the level of other areas?

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, we have been speaking about Sikongo for many years. We have been speaking about the desire to turn it into a district. Where are the plans? When are we going to conclude those plans? I want your administration to act as quickly as possible on those plans.

Yesterday, the hon. Member for Chasefu talked about the saying which goes, “You scratch my back and I will scratch yours”. The people of Western Province have been scratching MMD’s back …

Hon. Member: Throughout!

Mr Milupi: … for so long and their nails are now gone.

Laughter

Mr Milupi: It is high time the MMD Government also scratched our backs. During the life of your administration, we do not want the Western Province to lag behind as number nine in the development of this country.

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about the Mongu/Kalabo Road.

Mr Sing’ombe: Hear, hear! It is a disaster!

Mr Milupi: What is the problem behind completing this road? Let us complete it, please.

The Luampa/Sesheke Road, once completed, will open up so much land that it will enhance the timber industry. When are we going to embark on it?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: If you go to Sesheke/Kalongola/Kalabo/Angola Border, we are the only province - although we border so many countries - where there are no highways leading to those countries. We supported Angola at the time it was in problems and lost people because of Angola. Why do we not have a highway through Sikongo to the Angolan Border and through to the sea so that we, too, can have development?

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: Talking about Lukulu, it has been a district for many years. You cannot go there now due to the floods. You cannot reach the place. When are you going to tar the Katunda/Lukulu Road?

Mr Chairperson, Mongu is about eighty kilometres from Lukulu. When are we going to rehabilitate the Limulunga/Mushitwambumumbanga/Lukulu Road?

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: We need this road because it is important.

Mr Chairperson, the MMD Administration must understand that when we gave them 68 per cent of the votes - second only to Eastern Province, which gave them 73 per cent - it is not because we were looking for jobs. We also wanted to uplift ourselves, as a province, from this perpetual poverty.

Ms Imbwae: Hear, hear!

Mr Milupi: We, too, are a people.

Major Chizhyuka: Bulela! Bulela!

Mr Milupi: We cannot have a unitary State where others are in front and others perpetually remain backwards. Why? We are a polite people and we ask you politely, but we will not remain like that forever.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko (Mwembeshi): Mr Chairperson, in my preamble, I wish to mention that this Government or…

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Can we have order in the House?

You may continue.

Mr Kasoko: … country is running on auto pilot. Why do I say so? We are here today to talk about the sharing of the national cake which every province in this country needs. Alas, there are only a few provinces that are getting a lion’s share of the national cake. Other provinces are not getting anything. Amongst the provinces that are not getting a lion’s share is Central Province.

Mrs Masebo: You have boreholes!

Mr Kasoko: The infrastructure such as schools, health centres, agriculture training centres in Central Province, starting from Serenje, Mkushi, Kapiri Mposhi, Kabwe, Chibombo and Mumbwa are all run down and yet we approve moneys for rehabilitation of this infrastructure year in and year out.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to talk about graders. In the Auditor-General’s Report, we read about one grader that was hired by some commercial farmer in Mkushi. When the driver ran out of diesel, he abandoned the grader there and it was vandalised. Again, we have heard that the same commercial farmer who hired the first grader that was abandoned and vandalised, has hired a new grader which recently came from China to use for two weeks. However, this grader has been there for two months at his farm.

Mrs Masebo: Who is this?

Hon. UPND Member: Shame!

Mr Kasoko: Nobody knows whether this commercial farmer is going to pay for the hiring of the grader and yet the people in Mwembeshi, Mumbwa, Chibombo and Kabwe are waiting for graders to grade their roads. However, this grader is stuck with one commercial farmer.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: I would like to appeal to the Provincial Minister for Central Province and the Permanent Secretary who is here to check on that.

Mr Chairperson, the road from Munda Wanga to Teka Farm for our late President which passes through to Mkushi Boma is run down. If anything, the Government was supposed to have worked on that road but the grader is stuck with this commercial farmer. Mr Chairperson, when the district committee is sitting, the provincial administration is seated.

Mr Chairperson, in Mwembeshi, we were given money to work on D534 Road. The contractor only worked from Nampundwe Turn-off to Nalubanda. It has not stretched to meet the Lusaka/Mongu Road. In the Yellow Book, I expected money for the D534 Road from Nalubanda through Chombwa up to the junction of the Lusaka/Mongu Road but there is no allocation for this in the Yellow Book.

Mr Chairperson, when our Government was opening the ZCCM Mine in Mwembeshi which was later sold to Konkola Copper Mines, there was an agreement which they made with the people that they were going to put a ring road which they would even tar. This road would start from farmers passing through Nampundwe to Makeni but up to today, the road has not been worked on. Mr Chairperson, money is always approved in this House and, like I said, the money is not reaching all the provinces.

Mr Chairperson, I now want to talk about the Ministry of Education. I would like to agree with other hon. Members who have praised Hon. Professor Lungwangwa and I would like to say that we were given money to build 1 X 2 classroom blocks but we were given a shoddy deal. If you go there, you will see only one 1 X 2 two classroom block. The iron sheets which were fitted on those schools which were constructed in the constituency are sub standard.

Mr Chairperson, cheap iron sheets were used. This happened because of lack of supervision by the Ministry of Education. The ministry knows the history of Mumbwa District but during the last five years, K4 billion, if not more, was stolen by the officers and some of them are appearing in courts of law. The ministry is supposed to supervise the works and I would like to say that the classroom blocks which were constructed will not last.

Professor Lungwangwa: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Professor Lungwangwa: Mr Chairperson, I am sorry to interrupt the son of Nangoma who is debating passionately about the state of Mwembeshi, but is he in order to display his inability to supervise projects in his constituency when information has been made available to him as to the available resources and what has to be done about those resources? Is he in order to inform this House that he was unable to supervise the projects that were clearly laid out and made available to him? I need your serious ruling.

The Deputy Chairperson: Could Hon. Kasoko take that point of order into consideration as he contributes to the debate.

Mr Kasoko: Mr Chairperson, we have problems from the Government side which, when awarding contracts to contractors, gives contracts to people who do not reside in those areas because I would expect that when awarding a contract for a project in Mwembeshi, they should pick a contractor who is nearby. They can pick a contractor from Mumbwa, Nangoma, Mwembeshi or even from Lusaka and not someone from a far-away place like Luapula or Nakonde. This is what has been happening and this is the situation prevailing in Mwembeshi.

Mr Chairperson, the contractor who was picked to build these schools does not come to supervise the works. These issues have been raised through the District Education Board Secretary’s (DEBS) Office and reached the headquarters but no action has been taken. The other contractor in my constituency came only five months ago but since he left, he has not come back up to now and the workers have downed their tools because they have not been paid. This contractor is a resident of Chingola and, maybe, he did not have transport even though he was awarded this contract.

Mr Chairperson, we have qualified bricklayers and carpenters in the constituencies. Others were buildings supervisors when they were in employment but they were not given these contracts. I am, therefore, urging the Government, that when awarding contracts, they must try to give these to people who live near where construction is going to take place.

Mr Chairperson, Mwembeshi Constituency is one which has no secondary school or high school. Mr Chairperson, Nampundwe High School was built by the local community with meagre resources. This school has no dormitories and toilets. The pupils who are there are just renting houses in the site and service area and others are renting in buses. That is the prevailing situation.

Mr Chairperson, if the hon. Minister would like to see this for himself, we are adjourning today and I invite him to come with me tomorrow so that he can see what is happening there. This school does not have infrastructure which qualifies it to be called a high school. Several reports have been submitted before the Government by hon. Members from that area concerning the same. When Hon. Shimonde was here, he made a similar appeal and when the late Hon. Shimwandwe was here, he wrote something but to date nothing has been done.

Mr Chairperson, we have been approving funds here to buy desks but in the seven years I have been in this House, Mwembeshi has only received twenty desks. Most of the pupils in Mwembeshi sit on the floor when they are in class. In Central Province, in the majority of the schools, pupils sit on the floor.

Mr Chairperson, we have been talking about animal restocking. Maybe, in some areas, our friends have done animal restocking in the right manner. However, in Mumbwa, especially in Mwembeshi and Nangoma, the people who have been benefiting from these animals are MMD party cadres and constituency officials through District Agricultural Co-ordinating Office (DACO). So, the situation should be changed.

Lastly, Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about irrigation which was talked about so much in the last five years. This irrigation system in Central Province has failed. In Mwembeshi, there is nothing. We cannot even see a yellow, red or green light.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Any further debate? Mr Kakoma, before you speak, let me clarify one thing. When we were talking about Western Province, the hon. Member for Luena made reference to the Yellow Book in which he argued that it is written Barotseland. I want to correct that. I have looked at the page he made reference to under Western Province. It says Barotse Royal Treaty Obligation, not Barotseland. I thought it was nice that we correct the impression so that the people out there are not misled.

Can you the hon. Member continue?

Mr Kakoma (Zambezi West): Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for giving me an opportunity to speak on behalf of the down-trodden people of North-Western Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: These are the people that are marginalised, disadvantaged and forgotten in today’s Zambia.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, I am deeply surprised with this Government because what they are doing now, after the death of our beloved President, the late President Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC - May His Soul Rest In Peace - is totally different from our expectations.

As you recall, Mr Chairperson, North-Western Province was identified as a province with the highest potential for oil exploration and mining. The issue of oil started from the fires that were identified in Kabompo. To date, the issue of oil exploration in North-Western Province is becoming highly neglected.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, when the whole issue of oil started two to three years ago, I was walking with my head high in the streets of Lusaka and calling myself ‘Sheik’ and everybody started calling me Sheik Kakoma. Even other Members of Parliament, like the hon. Member for Kabompo West called Sheik Kalenga.

Dr Chituwo: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chituwo: Mr Chairperson, is the hon. Member of Parliament debating in order to refer to himself as ‘Sheik’ and yet, he lamentably informed the House of his inability to show this sheikship? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Well, maybe, we have sheiks who do not have oil.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Kakoma, can you take that point order into account as you debate?

Mr Kakoma: Mr Chairperson, Dr Chituwo is one of those people who used to call me sheik …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … and he used to respect me for coming from North-Western Province and owning oil. Today, even people that used to call themselves Sheik Kalenga, Sheik Konga, Sheik Sayifwanda, Sheik Mukuma and Sheik Kabinga Pande are now all putting their heads down …

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: … because they are no longer proud of being called by that name. Things have changed and we do not understand why things have changed. All of a sudden, from concentrating on oil exploration in the North-Western, the Government has started concentrating on exploring other areas in other provinces. We are wondering why we are slowly becoming a forgotten province in terms of oil exploration. The Government is now shifting itself to explore oil in Chienge where Dr Katele Kalumba comes from. We are wondering why the Government is diverting attention to start exploring oil in Eastern Province.

Dr Kalumba: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Kalumba: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on any point of order, but this one is so provocative. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to provoke an innocent district like dot com?

Laughter 

The Deputy Chairperson: That point order is not a point of order because there is no  dot com.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Can you continue, hon. Member, please?

Mr Kakoma: The serious issue, Mr Chairperson, that we are trying to raise is that the Government must be serious about this oil exploration. We must conclude the issue of oil exploration in North-Western Province. We do not understand why the Government dragging its feet over such an important issue like oil. We are lamenting the lack of development and complaining that we do not have enough money in this country, and yet, we are sitting on wealth.

Other countries, such as Uganda, that started oil exploration in Africa at the same time as Zambia have gone ahead to start drilling and yet we are still waiting to advertise the oil blocks. That is not showing seriousness in this programme.

Mr Chairperson, North-Western Province is also being neglected over issues of disasters. We have been experiencing one disaster after another in the province. The bridges, roads and other infrastructure in North-Western Province that were damaged by disasters a few years ago have not been repaired and all we have heard is that the Office of the Vice-President has been sending people to do surveys and they have been writing reports. For example, the bridge on the Kachigi River, in Zambezi West Constituency, has not been rehabilitated since it was washed away many years ago. This is why we say that this Government is not serious with taking development to North-Western Province. The same is happening in Solwezi, Mwinilunga, Mufumbwe, Kasempa and Kabompo districts. There are a lot of bridges that were damaged a long time ago due to floods but they have not been worked on.

Mr Chairperson, it makes me wonder why some people think that North-Western Province is having a good time in terms of development and assistance from this Government. I come from that province and go through these problems on a daily basis. For example, as regards the issue of road infrastructure, there are major roads in the province that have not been done and I will not tire of talking about the Mutanda-Chavuma Road.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Kakoma: I will continue talking about it until somebody becomes irritated enough to take action. That road remains one of the biggest projects in the province and unless it is done, we shall continue to be a thorn in the flesh of this Government.

Mr Chairperson, the Government had earlier indicated that the Mumbwa-Kasempa Road would be done many years ago but, to date, that road has not been completed and Hon. Kabinga Pande, who comes from Kasempa Constituency, can attest to that. We have other roads such as the Kipushi Road in Solwezi. That road is very important because it links Solwezi to the border post at Kipushi. Last year, I went on a Committee tour to that border post and found the road in bad shape. In fact, it needs to be tarred if we are serious about linking Solwezi to the border post at Kipushi.

Mr Chairperson, this Government has said that it has a policy of replacing all the pontoons with bridges and one of the biggest pontoons in the province is the Watopa Pontoon on the Kabompo River. This pontoon is giving us headaches in North-Western Province because a lot of trucks are experiencing accidents on that pontoon. Just a few months ago, a truck slipped and sunk into the Kabompo River. A lot of goods are being lost because of lack of a bridge on the Kabompo River at Watopa.

Mr Chairperson, if that bridge is done, it is going to provide the shortest route to North-Western Province, particularly Kabompo, Zambezi and Chavuma districts. We need that bridge to be put on the Kabompo River at Watopa. We also have other roads such as the Mwinilunga-Jimbe Road. I was also there just last year and the road leading to the border at Jimbe is terrible. This Government needs to be serious in terms of providing road infrastructure in the province. 

Mr Chairperson, this Government is not serious about the provision of airport infrastructure in North-Western Province. I will give you an example. The Zambezi Airport is highly dilapidated. It has actually been abandoned by this Government. You will be surprised to learn that this Government has rented out the Zambezi Airport. People have turned the airport in Zambezi into a residential area and are now living in the control tower. It has been turned into a house and somebody is living there with his family. That shows how negligent this Government is. Can you imagine, Sir, that an airport can be converted into a residential area, into a house?

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: That just shows lack of seriousness and yet it is an important airport because even the current Republican President has landed at that airstrip. It is, for lack of a better term, demeaning and shameful that we should be using such an airport as a house.

Mr Chairperson, let me also talk about the suffering of the people in terms of lack of proper electricity. The people of Zambezi, Chavuma, Kabompo, Mufumbwe and Mwinilunga districts are suffering because there is no electricity in these areas most of the time. They depend on generators which are old and keep on breaking down. Most of the time, there is no diesel to power these generators. For example, Zambezi District has gone for one month without power and, in the past, students have even rioted and broken a Zambia Electricity Supply Corporation (ZESCO) power station and the residence of the branch manager there. However, this Government continues to pay lip service to the plight of the people of North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, without electricity, we are also affected in terms of water supply because the water supply depends on power to pump the water and, therefore, when there is no power, there is also no water in the districts. People are forced to go and draw water in rivers such as the Zambezi which is highly infested with crocodiles and this is dangerous for the residents of these districts.

Mr Chairperson, let me finally talk about agriculture.

Mr Chairperson, whereas people think that North-Western Province is favoured, it is not. For example, you have heard that this Government is creating farming blocks all over the country and North-Western Province has not been allocated any. Despite the province having good rainfall, soils, climate and temperature, the Government thinks the province is not worth having a farming block. We are not happy with this because this Government must develop North-Western Province as a bread basket for Zambia.

Mr Chipungu: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chipungu: Mr Chairperson, I rarely rise on points of order, but I am forced to do so. Is the hon. Member debating on the Floor in order to mislead this nation that there is no allocation of a farming block in North-Western Province when it is on record that Senior Chiefs Mujimanzovu and Kandele have offered 100,000 hectares of land towards the creation of a farming block? Is he in order, therefore, to mislead this nation?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: As you debate, Mr Kakoma, take that point of order into account.

Mr Kakoma: It is true that land has been offered by our chiefs, but this Government has neglected the provision of infrastructure for us to develop those farming blocks.

We also have cattle in the province that have died due to diseases because this Government has not provided adequate measures to control the diseases. As a result, we have been left out of the Cattle Restocking Programme. This is going to create a lot of poverty among the people of North-Western Province because we depend on cattle to pay for services such as children’s school fees. Without cattle, we are done.

I thank you, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Let me just apprise the House of where we are. Out of the nine provinces, three hon. Members have spoken from those provinces apart from the Provincial Ministers. The provinces that have had three Members speaking are Northern, Southern, Western and Copperbelt provinces. From the remaining five provinces, two have spoken from each province meaning there is one remaining, but this does not mean that the remaining ones must also speak. If the two who have already spoken have been understood, then you do not have to indicate, we can begin calling on the Provincial Ministers to wind up debate.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Long live the Chair!

Mr Katuka (Mwinilunga East): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to add my voice to the debate on the Floor. I wish to contribute on the Vote for North-Western Province.

Mr Chairperson, may I join my colleague in paying tribute to our former Provincial Minister who we worked with so well when he was in the province.

Mr Chairperson, I should acknowledge that during his time, he acted without bias in handling developmental issues. He took time to invite us to all the meetings that were held in the province. He also took time to invite us when he was touring our constituencies.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: Where we were able to travel, we travelled. There was only one trick that he did not discover and that is each time he travelled, he was traveling on a Government vehicle while we, hon. Members, needed to travel in our own vehicles, using our own fuel. I hope next time he will do much better than that.

Mr Chairperson, may I also take time to welcome the new Provincial Minister, who I know is part of us and I do not expect many problems from him. However, I advise him that he should take a leaf from his predecessor in the way he should conduct developmental issues in the province. As North-Western Province, we have a consultative forum through which all Members of Parliament meet to discuss issues of the province and I would advise that this continues, and the hon. Minister is part of that consultative forum.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to start my debate on building on promises. I know that North-Western Province is a growing area and when I debated last year on this same Vote, I did mention that there was an influx of people coming into the province which needed more infrastructure development and medical service provision.

For the first time in the history of North-Western Province, last year, we had an outbreak of cholera which was shameful because, for so many years, we have never heard of cholera in that part of the country. However, due to the influx of migrants and job seekers, some of whom have been camped there for more than six months doing nothing, hoping that one day they will be employed, there was this outbreak. These are the people causing problems for us.

People have come to get land in North-Western Province yet the people there have not achieved anything. Their only hope is that the normal life they have always led will be the same. In the meantime, these clever people from Lusaka are getting large chunks of land from the chiefs so that sooner or later, we will have the same problems that our brothers in Southern Province are facing.

Hon. UPND Members: Watch out!

Mr Katuka: We do not want to encourage that and we do not want to see people getting those large chunks of land …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Chairperson, as you know, I have been very quiet this time. I am rising on a very serious point of order. I know some people call themselves indigenous, but I think I am more indigenous to raise this point of order. I have been listening attentively to the debate on the provinces. Is it in order for hon. Members of Parliament, who are serving this country called Zambia with unity from the UNIP Government and its motto of ‘One Zambia, One Nation.’ to say what he has just said? Hon. Members of Parliament have come here and talked about ‘we’ in North-Western Province, Southern Province and what and what. It is like each province is a country on its own at this time of the year and age. The previous speaker even referred people from other areas of the country who have gone to seek jobs in North-Western Province as causing problems such as cholera.

Mr Chairperson, such issues bring problems. Is it really in order that we should debate and divide Zambia in pieces when we are supposed to work in unity? I need your serious ruling, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: It is true and that is a very important point of order except that the hon. Deputy Minister is asking the Chair to rule and saying, “That is your point of order” to the Chair, which is not correct.

 Mr Sichilima pointed at the Chairperson.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: I think, that point of order is correct. There is no harm in saying ‘we from Eastern or Southern Province’ because the ‘we’ does not necessarily mean only the people from that province. There could be people in Eastern Province from other provinces. Therefore, the Chair does not see anything wrong in that. However, to the extent that the hon. Member had said that people from the other provinces are bringing diseases to North-Western Province, I think that may not be correct.

Therefore, Mr Katuka, just continue along the lines which show ‘One Zambia, One Nation.’ And you may continue.

Hon. Government Members: Continue.

Mr Katuka: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Before the point of order was raised, I was talking about the lack of infrastructure to accommodate the influx of people that have come to North-Western Province. Wherever there are a lot of people, there is need to improve the infrastructure to help the people in the area.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: This is the only province that accommodates anyone and Hon. Hachipuka can testify to this. We have no problem with people from other provinces like my Mulamu.

Laughter

Mr Katuka: However, this cannot really be an issue, but all I was implying is that there are too many people in the province. The Government must find infrastructure such as better health facilities to cope with the increasing number of people in the province. This is what I meant.

Before I was interrupted, I was talking about the promise. I remember very well when the late President, Mr Levy Patrick Mwanawasa, SC visited Lumwana Mine - May His Soul Rest in Peace – he promised the people of North-Western Province that Mumbezhi would be turned into a district…

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: … because it was expanding and the MMD Government did get a lot of votes based on this continuity with the late President’s legacy. However, when I asked a question on the Floor of this House as to when this Government would construct or give the status of a district to Mumbezhi, I was told that the Government had no plans to do so. Is this continuing with the legacy?

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

Mrs Musokotwane: Or is that building on the promise?

Mr Katuka: Or is that building on the promise?

Hon. Opposition Members: No.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! He is not asking you to answer questions.

The hon. Member may continue.

Mr Katuka: Mr Chairperson, Lumwana is expanding. Lumwana is the biggest investment the MMD Government is proud of. They have gone round the world saying the investment of Lumwana has come to stay. There is new infrastructure in Lumwana worth US $1 billion as at today. The investors have created jobs for our people. Unfortunately, very few people of our own, again, have been employed but we do not mind. Those that are being displaced because of this infrastructure will need to be resettled elsewhere and that is why they need to consider Lumwana or Mumbezhi for district status. After that promise by the late President, Solwezi Municipal Council put aside money specifically for that purpose and Hon. Mwanza knows that. Now, to be told that the project is not in the Government’s programme is really unfortunate.

Hon. Members: Cry.

Mr Katuka: Somebody talked of the infrastructure in Solwezi. I wish to inform the hon. Minister of Defence that the failed Technical Industrial Kalumbila Associates (TIKA) buildings in Mumbezhi were not meant to be for a military camp. When TIKA aborted the project, they decided to bring in the Zambia National Service to look after the offices for the district headquarters. I do not see any problem of infrastructure in Mumbezhi. I have listened to most hon. Ministers’ statements. They talked of building a school and post office in Lumwana. What other infrastructure do they want to build? I appeal to the Government to finish the idea of upgrading Mumbezhi to district status that was started by the late President because this is the legacy which was left.

Let me also echo Hon. Shakafuswa’s sentiments. It is 1,000 kilometres from Lusaka to Zambezi and 400 or 500 kilometres from Lusaka to Zambezi via Mumbwa/Kasempa. Why does the Government not think of working on the Lusaka/Mumbwa/Kasempa Road? This is the shortest route to North-Western Province. It is sometimes not necessary to pass through the Copperbelt. If I am travelling from Lusaka to Solwezi, the shortest route is to go via Kasempa because it will take me less than four hours and it takes twelve hours to travel from Lusaka to Mwinilunga.

Hon. Opposition Members: Shame!

Mr Katuka: Why can the Government not consider opening this route?

Interruptions

Mr Hachipuka: Why can the Cabinet Minister from the North-Western Province not take it up?

Interruptions

Mr Katuka: What do you talk about in the Cabinet meetings, Hon. Kabinga Pande?

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Hon. Musokotwane, the hon. Member debating behind you is being disturbed.

The hon. Member for Mwinilunga East may continue.

Mr Katuka: I appeal to the Government to consider this issue although they are always complaining of lack of resources. If there is no money to be used on a 1,200-kilometre stretch, why can they not work on the 400-kilometre stretch because it will cost less? There is no need to continue saying that there is no money when the Government can work on a shorter route at less cost.

Mr Chairperson, the other issue I want to look at is the North-Western Province rail. This was a heated issue and enthusiasm was growing in the people hoping that the project would start. However, as Hon. Kakoma said, we begin a project with a bang and let it die off naturally. The North-Western Province rail was stopped, but I do not know why. Maybe, it was because the person who started it was one of us. People no longer talk about the North-Western Province rail but this is the shortest route to the port.

Hon. Government Member: There is no money.

Mr Katuka: The Government, under the leadership of the late President Mwanawasa, said they would find a strategic partner. That strategic partner, after his demise, has not been found and nobody is talking about it. What has happened?

Hon. Government Member interjected.

Hon. UPND Member:  Iwe! Are you alright?

Laughter

Mr Katuka: I appeal to the Government to consider and finish this programme so that the people of North-Western Province can use an easier and shorter route to the port and sea and transport goods to North-Western Province.

The other issue I want to look at is agriculture. North-Western Province grows rice, pineapples and maize, but there is no market for pineapples. At one time, the former Deputy Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry, Mr Samukonga, announced that the Government had found an investor to reopen the Mwinilunga Cannery but more than seven years has passed and nothing has happened. The pineapples are a delicacy.  They are of value in other countries, but they are neglected in Zambia. We have not thought of how we can harness pineapples and find a market. In fact, we have also failed to find a market for rice.

On the issue of education, I would like to commend my brother, Hon. Lungwangwa, who has made several attempts to improve the standard of education in North-Western Province. He is doing well, but we still have to look at the issue of poor results in North-Western Province. I asked a question on the Floor of this House as to what measures the Government was taking to look at the quality of education in the province. I was told that the Government has put in stringent measures, but the results that came out this year still prove that those stringent measures have not worked.

There is need to address this issue. Go back to your drawing board and see how you can address this issue. It is a waste of investment if the children in the North-Western Province cannot manage to go to school with all that development taking place.

 My brother-in-law on the right side says that we should not discriminate. However, there is no way that your people cannot benefit when the wealth is in your home.

I am aware that Lumwana Mine had provided seventy-two scholarships. However, because of the poor pass rate, year in and year out, our children were not able to utilise those scholarships. Among those that will be sponsored will be only nine from the North-Western Province. This is unfortunate.

We appeal to the Government to look at the pass rate and find out where the problem is. I know that the foundation is not good. When I go round my constituency, the teaching in the schools is disastrous. While efforts are being made, there must be deliberate discrimination. We have a teacher training school in the North-Western Province. There should be what Major is calling positive discrimination.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: Once in a while, all the graduates from that institution must be deployed within the North-Western Province …

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Katuka: … so that our children can also cope and come to the level of the other children in the country.

Mr Chairperson, I am a man of very few words and, with these few words …

Hon. Members: Aah!

Mr Katuka: … I beg to move.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson:  I think that we should …

Hon. Members: Wind up.

The Deputy Chairperson:  You may go ahead.

Mr Chimbaka (Bahati): Mr Chairperson, patience and large heartedness are key under every circumstance and situation.

Mr Chairperson, when the wind of wisdom was blowing from the Northern Province to the East, it caught you up and that is why you have decided to afford me this golden opportunity to speak last this afternoon. There is no doubt about it and nobody is going to rob you of that.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, I have heard and followed debates in this House this afternoon as well as yesterday. However, the approach of the people of Luapula Province is unique and different.

I want to clear the air that the people of Luapula Province - our chiefs and their representatives - shall never be party to political fanaticism, especially, where people want to politicise issues of appointments made by the President. We have wholeheartedly received our brethren that have been appointed to the province and are ready to co-operate and work with them …

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: … because he that appointed them understands the reasons he appointed them. That is the message.

Mr Chairperson, unlike the tradition and custom on the Floor of this House, the people of Luapula have a message that they will never come to this House to beg for anything. However, they have an offer to make to the Government.

The people believe that Luapula is endowed with vast virgin land. They would like the listening Government to identify would be potential farmers to invest there and grow food to generate income and grow the GDP so that there may be money in the Government coffers to distribute evenly and equitably.

The province is endowed with white sandy beaches that are comparable to none. They offer these beaches, rivers and lakes to the Government and ask that you bring the Egyptians, Italians, Southerners and Westerners with money to invest in tourism in Luapula Province. This way, you will create resources to distribute evenly and there will be no complaints on the Floor of this House.

Mrs Musokotwane: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mrs Musokotwane: I thank you, Sir. I am sure you are aware that this is my first point of order since I came into this House.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: No. I am not aware.

Mrs Musokotwane: Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to imply that the people of Luapula Province cannot grow their food, but need an investor to grow food?

The Deputy Chairperson: Hon. Chimbaka, you have heard that point of order. If that is not what you meant, you can explain it.

Mr Chimbaka: I thank you Chair.

The Deputy Chairperson: Chairperson.

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, we are exporters of cassava cuttings which can also be found on the South African markets. We are adequately stocked with food for the consumption and survival of our people. All we are saying is that we want commercial farmers to come to the province. We have abundant water, virgin soil and people that are co-operative. Let them come and produce sufficient food to feed those that have inadequate food.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: Mr Chairperson, we are inviting the Chinese or Portuguese to come. We are rich in mineral resources. I want to state on the Floor of this House and put it on record that if people never believed that Luapula, just like the North-Western Province, is endowed with oil, that is why Mweru Wantipa is there today. Records are there for all to see.

Mr Chairperson, I would not want to lament. We ask our Government this time around to extend a good hand to the people of Luapula Province because we have offered what can make the Government create employment and money to address developmental issues.

Mr Chairperson, there is one issue that is core amongst the people of Luapula. I want to state, as I close my debate, that the people of Luapula have said to the people in leadership that they have bitten their lips and their fingers for seven years now and, they are not ready to continue to distance themselves from the Government because there is no cause to do so now.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Chimbaka: I repeat, and my provincial Minister will confirm this. The message from the people of Luapula is that they have bitten their lips and their fingers for seven years and they have said that there is no cause for them to distance themselves from the Government now. They are aware that when some people took Mary Magdalene to Jesus and said that they found her committing adultery, Jesus told them to stone her if they had never done so themselves.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Ngoma (Sinda): Sir, I thank you for the opportunity to add a few words on the debate on provinces.

Hon. Member: When is the wedding?

Laughter

Mr Ngoma: I want to congratulate the new hon. Deputy Minister of the Eastern Province, Hon. Isaac Banda. He is a gentleman to work with. We wish him well in the province and hope that he will be able to have a fruitful relationship with the other hon. Members of Parliament.

In the same vein, I want to congratulate the new Permanent Secretary, Madam Siamujaye, on her appointment. So far, she is doing a good job. She is a good new broom who is on top of things.

I also want to congratulate …

Hon. Member: Allan!

Mr Ngoma: How have you known?

Laughter

Mr Ngoma: I also want to congratulate the new hon. Deputy Minister of Energy and Water Development, Hon. Allan Mbewe, Member of Parliament for Chadiza, after a long struggle to freedom.

Laughter

Mr Ngoma: My brother, you earned that appointment.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: I think that is what it ought to be. As opposed to being a shoe cleaner for somebody, you chose to go the difficult the way, but you have been rewarded and we wish you well.

Sir, in Latin they say, “Vox popoi vox de”. It means the voice of the people is the voice of God. I have heard sentiments and some people trying to be annoyed when we talk about the late President, Levy Patrick Mwanawasa. They are asking why we want to use the name of the late President in his death. A lot of things have been said. You cannot stop talking about a good man.

Mr Milupi: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: Good men will always be talked about for generations to come. If somebody provided quality leadership, he cannot be forgotten within a year or less. We cannot forget about that great man. He was a great man especially for the people of Eastern Province. He took time from his busy schedule to visit the entire province. Under his leadership, we saw agriculture being revived and improved in the province, but you want to tell us to stop talking about him. If you hated that man, I am sorry we are not part of that hate. That man meant well and I believe that whatever I am saying now is not only unique to Eastern Province, but many other provinces as well. North-Western Province was a Cinderella province, but that man transformed it and you want us to forget him so quickly. We shall never do that. Martin Luther King lived in America and there is even a public holiday …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Ngoma: … declared in honour of that great black son of America.

Today, Barack Obama is President of the United States of America. Today, Barack Obama says that the dream that Martin Luther King had has been realised. Therefore, be careful when you say some of these things. We want you to listen to the people. A good Government will only deliver if it is able to listen to the people.

A very selfish and greedy individual who is not even Zambian - in my language we say alendo (a visitor) - should not be allowed to manipulate this country. Alendo kwao. It means, “Just there, let them go back”.

Laughter

Mr Ngoma: Issues that are of great importance to the people of Eastern Province include the delimitation of constituencies. Kasenengwa, Chipangali and Msanzala constituencies are too huge. The constituency for our Provincial Minister, Hon. Isaac Banda, Lumezi Constituency, and Kapoche Constituency are too large. These constituencies are too large. Therefore, there is need for delimitation of constituencies.

When we raise that issue in this House, we are told to wait for the National Constitutional Conference (NCC). When I look at the NCC, especially over some committees that were sitting, I think some of them were very funny. I would like to advise the Government that if it goes along that way of trying to be funny and manipulate the people as it has manipulated this House, it is taking a dangerous route.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!
 
Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order, Mr Ngoma! It cannot be true that the House is being manipulated by the Government. That is not correct.

Mr Ngoma: Madam, at least, there is one satisfying thing at the NCC.

The Deputy Chairperson: Mr and not Madam!

Mr Ngoma: I am sorry and thank you for your wise guidance.

Sir, at least, there is one good thing about the NCC and I am very happy. This can also be attributed to past leadership. The NCC is fair in terms of the distribution and that is why I believe that it would be very difficult to come up with something which is one person or party oriented. However, my fear is that because of the numbers where there are no two-thirds for each party, the Opposition and the Government, we might end up failing. If you fail, you will make one man in this country a hero. If that man becomes a hero before 2011, it will be very chaotic. Therefore, let the NCC work.

Mr Sichilima: Nabomfwa!

Mr Ngoma: Agriculture is the mainstay of the people of the Eastern Province. I would like to implore this Government to improve the Fertiliser Support Programme in the province. This programme should be improved and timely delivery of fertiliser and other inputs every year should be a must.

Sir, I also want to urge the Government to help us set up agricultural industries. It has done so well in setting up a lot of ginneries in the north of the province at Katete and Petauke. We commend the Government for that, but we would like them to help us to grow a lot of groundnuts. Let us have that industry so that we use our Chalimbana nuts properly.

Sir, with regard to the issue of roads and bridges, I would like to say that a lot of roads in all constituencies in the province have been damaged by the rains. I implore the Government to move quickly - as we adjourn today and as hon. Members of Parliament give you feedback - to work on the roads.

In the same vein, I have seen that in this year’s budget, we have been given about K2 billion. Hon. Minister for Eastern Province, Hon. Banda, that K2 billion, in my humble advice, consider sharing it per constituency so that even when graders are somewhere else, even if it takes six months, there will be money for Sinda Constituency in the account. Money for Chipata Central Constituency as well as other constituencies will also be in accounts as opposed to letting technocrats say that they will come up with some formula which will result in only a few constituencies benefiting.

Mr Chairperson, right now, we are working on roads in Sinda Constituency and we are using money from the 2003 Budget. In 2003, there was a decision that money should have been shared per constituency but if it was shared according to whatever arrangement, I believe that it would have been misused.

Mr Chairperson, I want to talk about Sinda Constituency. This constituency needs district status because the population there is too high. There is good infrastructure and people are serious with agriculture. There is a clinic which we can turn into a district hospital. We urge the Government to put up another high school near Chassa High School. We want Sinda to become a district centre and probably improve on water supply.

Mr Chairperson, Kasenengwa Constituency is densely populated and there are no clinics. People at Mchizwa Village need a clinic. Therefore, I want to implore the Government to look at this issue seriously so that we provide these health facilities to the people there. 

Sir, the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba, Mr Tembo, has worked very well. He has put up a youth skills training centre. He needs to be assisted so that the centre is completed. He cannot depend on the CDF in order to finish that project. You should help him have that project established properly so that it can come into full use.

Sir, the people of Eastern Province have enjoyed peace for a long time. I, therefore, want to thank the Their Royal Highnesses such as Senior Chief Kambombo in Chama who has the Kwenje Ceremony. In Lundazi, we have Senior Chief Magodi with his beautiful traditional ceremony. In Chipata, you will find Paramount Chief Mpezeni, Nkosi yama Nkosi, who is doing a commendable job in as far as the Nc’wala Ceremony is concerned. In Katete, we have the Kulamba Kubwalo Ceremony under His Royal Highness, Kalonga Gawa Undi, Chilombo Kampande. In Petauke, there is Senior Chief Kalindawalo and many other chiefs. These traditional ceremonies I am talking about are all tourist attractions for this country. Eastern Province has quality traditional ceremonies which the Government needs to promote.

Mr Chongo: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Chongo: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to raise this point of order. Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to mislead this House and the nation by talking about Chief Mpezeni, with his beautiful traditional ceremony without also indicating that actually, the chief is very good at disco dancing?

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Member may take that point of order into account. Please, continue.

Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, what I am saying is that there are beautiful ceremonies in the province which need to be promoted…

Interruptions

Dr Chishimba: On a point of order, Mr Chairperson.

The Deputy Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Dr Chishimba: Mr Chairperson, is Hon. Ngoma, who is debating so well in order to begin to conclude his debate without compelling Dr Kazonga and Mr Mwale, among others, to come to Kasama General Hospital and eat the rats which are a danger to the patients?

 I need your serious ruling, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Now, I think we are getting funny points of order. Let us allow ourselves to move. There are two provinces that we have to finish. On that point of order, I want to state that rats are not eaten, but mice.

Laughter

Mr Ngoma: Mr Chairperson, I thank you for your wise guidance. Ignorant people will always come out very clearly that they do not know. Just like Hon. Banda mentioned, there is a big difference between koswe na mbeba. Therefore, I think the hon. Member needs to be educated more on that. 

Mr Chairperson, with those few remarks, I thank you.

Laughter

The Minister for Lusaka Province (Mr Mangani): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for according me the opportunity to present the Lusaka Province Budget Estimates for 2009 and this is a great honour for me. Before, I go any further, I want to indicate to our friends that even disco dancing can be part of our cultural ceremonies.

Laughter

Mr Mangani: Therefore, people should not be surprised when we have these discos.

Sir, I also want to react to a few points raised by the hon. Members who debated for Lusaka Province.

Firstly, Hon. Magande did indicate and possibly revealed one major State secret that he is keeping a number of leaders in his constituency and he also complained about the state of the roads. Indeed, the issue of roads is a serious one and we are seriously looking at how best we can attend to the roads in various constituencies in Lusaka Province. I also took note of the point about the issue of land. Land is a serious problem in Lusaka Province and this has greatly affected a number of projects which could have taken off but because of land, we are having problems. This is a matter we can discuss with the hon. Minister of Lands and see how best we can acquire land that is unutilised.

Mr Chairperson, in terms of health facilities, you said that you were privileged to know a number of donors who could have assisted. I also would have benefited from those donors because I have Bundabunda Clinic in Chongwe which is unfinished. This project requires a lot of funding to finish. All the same, I take note of your concern.

Hon. Magande also raised the issue of decentralisation. He said that he was a strong believer in decentralisation. This is a good point and I think this is why the Government is trying hard to make sure that our planning is centered on the districts and constituencies.

Hon. Masebo mentioned that about 80 per cent of our budget is on salaries and wages. The reason is very simple. Generally, the core business is to co-ordinate activities of a number of departments.

However, if we have the chance, we use most of the money to help areas which are lacking. Therefore, if there is a project we feel that a line ministry has not fulfilled, we use the money to undertake such projects.

Mr Chairperson, someone talked about the issue of decentralisation. Indeed, it is a good concept and all of us are supporters of decentralisation, and we will ensure that this Bill succeeds.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of some officers, such as the Provincial Local Government Officer being restricted in their movements, we are trying very hard, as a province, to make sure that all our provincial heads are provided with adequate transport to monitor most of the projects given to them.

Sir, I wish to indicate that our focus for the 2009 Budget for Lusaka Province is mainly on projects which were not completed in 2008. Most of the resources, therefore, will be directed to projects not completed in 2008. Our budget estimate for this year is K27,490,712,120. It is our desire that with these resources, we can handle a number of projects that we have itemised in our budget.

Mr Chairperson, more importantly, we have introduced a very important component called the Provincial Planning Unit. This unit will make sure that we co-ordinate all the programmes of various departments.

Regarding the issue of roads, it is important to note that the Government has introduced a department known as the Rural Unit. This unit will address the concerns that have been raised by a number of hon. Members of Parliament. With the K2 billion that we have been allocated, and the commitment from the hon. Minister of Works and Supply, we hope that we will do quite a lot to improve the face of Lusaka Province.

Mr Chairperson, in conclusion, it is our hope, as Lusaka Province, that we will work extremely hard to finish the projects which were not completed last year as we execute the 2009 Budget. It is also our desire to co-operate with all line ministries to ensure that we improve the lives of our people in Lusaka Province. I hope that my budget will be supported

Mr Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Chairperson: You deserve commendation for being brief.

The Minister for Eastern Province (Mr I. Banda): Mr Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to wind up debate on this year’s budget for the Eastern Province. I would like to clarify a few points that hon. Members raised concerning development in Eastern Province.

Interruptions

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Mr I. Banda: Mr Chairperson, I would like to start by clearing up what Hon. Chifumu Banda, hon. Member of Parliament for Chasefu, said about the need to rehabilitate our roads in the Eastern Province.

Mr Chairperson, this Government is keen in trying to improve the road network in the province.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: As at now, many people are aware, especially those who travel along the Great East Road from Lusaka to Luangwa, that Rubex Contractors are busy widening the road and putting it into its normal form.
Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: For works on the road from Luangwa Bridge to Mwami Border to begin, the Government is waiting for the completion of the feasibility studies for the redesign to suit the increasing load of traffic that passes along this road. This will also make it ready for the anticipated trade cargo that will be brought in through the Chipata/Mchinji Railway Line, which is expected to finish this year. The feasibility studies for the road will be completed by the middle of this year.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: Mr Chairperson, for the Chipata/Mfuwe Road, the Government has already committed itself by reflecting an amount of K30 billion in this year’s budget to start tarring the road to ease the journey for the many tourists who travel on this road. When rehabilitation of this road is completed, we also expect the commercial activities in Mfuwe, and Mambwe district as a whole, to increase, thereby, reducing the poverty levels of our people in that area.

Mr Chairperson, the rehabilitation of the Chipata/Lundazi Road is on going. We expect the contractor, Rubex, now busy doing the total rehabilitation of the first 100 kilometres, to finish by June this year. Any time from now, this Government will advertise the second lot of the road up to Lundazi so that towards the end of the year, work can be in progress.

Mr Chairperson, this Government is aware of the bad state of the Chipata/Chadiza Road. The Government is doing all it can to improve the status of the road as quickly as possible.

Mr Chairperson, hon. Members raised a lot of concerns on the feeder roads. Since we started working on feeder roads in October, last year, using our earth moving equipment, we have done works in four districts. Currently, we are working on seven roads in these districts. We have already done works on the Chipata/Vubwi and Chipata/Magwero roads in Chipata District, and Mumbi/Mwanjabanthu, and Nyamphande and Minga Roads in Petauke District. We have also done the works on the Katete/Msoro Road in Katete District and the Chama/Matumbo Road in Chama District. It is, however, regrettable that works have now stalled because of the heavy rains. We hope to intensify the works after the rains.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr I. Banda: Mr Chairperson, the crop marketing of 2008 went on very well in the province. All the framers who sold their maize to the FRA got their payments. The raising of the producer price of maize from K45,000 to K55,000 per 50 kilogramme bag, and the extension of the marketing period from 30th September to 31st October, was a great relief to all stakeholders.

Mr Chairperson, the selling of maize to Malawi has been a source of concern to many people in the province. Now, however, the Government is putting up mechanisms to protect this maize from going to Malawi by starting the marketing season early as well as putting up a lot of FRA buying depots in most of the areas so that our people can access these markets as quickly as possible. Furthermore, the raising of the price from K45,000 to K55,000 will actually encourage our people to sell the maize in our depots.

Mr Chairperson, on the issue of the Fertiliser Support Programme (FSP), the provincial allocation of farm inputs increased by 60 per cent in respect to the previous season. The Government has indicated that it will review the FSP this year, for the better.

Mr Chairperson, in order to promote irrigation schemes in the province, the Government has rehabilitated and constructed a number of dams such as Kakoma, Doda, Paku and Tigone, for irrigation.

Mr Chairperson, the Government is already constructing two district hospitals in Chama and Chadiza. There are also plans by this Government to put up district hospitals in both the remaining districts of Mambwe and Katete to supplement mission hospitals.

Mr Chairperson, there have been concerns raised by the hon. Members of Parliament on the Rural Electrification Programme.

Sir, the hon. Member for Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency asked if the Government can electrify his constituency. This programme is on going in the province and many areas are targeted for that. We have already connected about two areas; the border post at Lusumpa and the centre for the Zambia Agriculture Support Programme (ZAST) at Kakoma School in Chasefu Parliamentary Constituency. If funds will be made available, we hope to connect the headquarters of Chasefu at Emusa and Kanyanga Zone Health centres.

 Mr Chairperson, requesting the Government to give Sinda district status is a welcome idea. Therefore, it needs to be presented to the Government for consideration in future just like the setting up of the multi-facility economic zone which is also a good programme that the province needs in order to reduce poverty levels in the province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr I. Banda: Mr Chairperson, repair of airstrips will take place in all districts as and when funds are available. I also hope that the delimitation of constituencies will come to an end after the new Constitution is out.

Sir, let me commend the hon. Member of Parliament for Nyimba for setting up the Nyimba Youth Training Centre. It is the intention of this Government to have all such projects completed.

 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for the Copperbelt Province (Mr Mbulakulima): Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity to present the budget for the most important province in the country. I will be brief.

Sir, as I have always indicated, the presentation of a speech must be as short as a mini-skirt, but capable enough to cover the many salient features.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, allow me to respond to some of the issues raised by hon. Members. It is also a pity, but I am also mindful that it is a role of the Executive to listen so that they can come and respond effectively and responsibly. The culture of insulting and hammering from the other side …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima:…and at the end of the day, they leave the House without listening to the response of the Executive, must come to an end.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, the hon. Member for Roan mentioned that there are a lot of potholes in most of the roads in Luanshya and that wherever he passes, he instructs the Town Clerk to mend those potholes. Yes, that is a small place, but we are looking at the bigger picture, which is the national responsibility. Therefore, we are mindful that those potholes which have been worked on in Luanshya were done by this responsible Government and my responsible provincial administration.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, it is not true that money has been shifted and that there are a lot of potholes in Kafulafuta. Let me mention that the works on the Kafulafuta Road have been procured and the contractor will be moving on site very soon. Therefore, I will call the issue of taking money to Kasaba Bay as a cross country allegation.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, the issue of the KCM and non-payment of suppliers is regrettable. Having said that, I would like to say that you will recall that even in the old days of ZCCM, we experienced the same problem because that company was going through difficulties.

Sir, on the Maposa small-scale farmers, the hon. Member said people should not be moved. I want to promise on the Floor of this House that we shall go ahead to move the people of Maposa. After all, the programme is working very well and we would not want anyone to politicise that exercise. The people have agreed and we are going to move and move effectively.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Yes, we promise that exercise must have the human face. Most of you, hon. Members, will agree with me that whenever you are passing through Kitwe and Ndola during the rainy season, you always find rain. That is how good that area is. This is because of the forest. You are always talking about posterity. Surely, do you want people to settle at the source of the river? Do you think the next generation will forgive us? Is that the legacy that you want to leave? This will not happen under my administration. We will want to do the right thing.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, we shall demarcate the land and demarcate it nicely.

Sir, on the windfall tax, I will combine this with what the hon. Member for Nchanga said that he is a very disappointed hon. Member. I want to assure him and all hon. Members who come from the Copperbelt that we should be the first ones to support this programme. I will tell you that learning is a continuous process. At the last sitting of the NCC, I learnt one thing from Hon. Matongo. He said and I quote:

‘When you set your car in gear one, the idea is to move forward, but it is only the unwise or fool who does not disengage the gear when he/she realises that there is danger ahead. ’

Hon. Members, we engaged the gear for the windfall tax, but we have realised and responsibly so that there are dangers ahead. We have also realised the impediment that lies ahead of us.

Most of the hon. Member who come from the Copperbelt Province know that we have two types of mining. One is the open pit type and the other is underground mining. Therefore, both the mineral tax and windfall tax are based on the gross. Yet, the open pit and the underground mines have different cost implications. The deep mines do not just have heavy cost structure, but they are also the ones that employ the majority of our people. Therefore, once we disturb that, there will be no jobs on the Copperbelt. Therefore, we are prudent that we have moved and we would like to move cautiously.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

Mr Mbulakulima: You have asked why we cannot let it remain on the Statute books. No! We believe that he who fights and runs away leaves to fight another day. We have to bite the bullet. This is the reason we have decided that we have to drop it.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: I want to assure the House that we are not ashamed because we mean well. Therefore, this exercise will pay dividends. Having said that, I want to assure you that umulilo ucingile abakalamba, taoca. Therefore, you should feel protected. This saying means that “adults are the sources of wisdom and protection.” Therefore, you are protected.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!  Quality!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, a lot of issues have been mentioned about the lack of equal distribution of resources on the Copperbelt. I want to state on the Floor of the House that ladies and gentlemen, fellow hon. Members, that assertion is unfair because the equitable distribution of wealth on the Copperbelt still balances on the urban centres.

The in-fighting of brother against brother is not healthy. When you look in the Yellow Book, you will find that K100 million has been allocated to boreholes. Again, you will notice that you have Mulonga Water and Sewerage Company, Kafubu water and Sewerage Company and Nkana Water and Sewerage Company. How much money do you think the Government is spending on those operations? Really, how can you be jealous of only three boreholes in Masaiti and three boreholes in Mpongwe? It is not fair.

Sir, when we talk about co-operating partners and the heavy investment in Konkola Deep Project and Nchanga, you will note that the Nchanga Smelter alone is the third largest across this continent.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: That heavy investment in Nchanga is not a joke. Therefore, if you talk against that, then, you are not being fair.

Sir, you want us to talk about the Lima/Lamba Road which is a gravel road and then ignore the road from Chingola to Chililabombwe up to Kasumbalesa, and then, you say there is nothing coming forward. You are not fair. The road from Ndola to Luanshya is a proper road, but you still say that it is not fair. Surely, how fair do want us, as a Government, to be? I do not have to prove it. All you need to do, fellow countrymen, compatriots and fellow hon. Members of Parliament, is to open up and be fair. Then, you will find that the Copperbelt is heavily tilted towards the urban areas. The equitable distribution that you are complaining about is not fair.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Again, one hon. Member mentioned that the former hon. Member for Nchanga, Mr Kazala-Laski, has testified that RB is not taking us anywhere. I do not know how effective this Member is. As far as our records show, he is not an effective member of the MMD and we know where he belongs.

Ms Cifire: Ulula!

Mr Mbulakulima: Sir, Hon. Mushili mentioned that the Copperbelt has remained undeveloped because it is a stronghold of the PF. I want to dispute this. When did the PF become a factor on the Copperbelt?

How can you say we have not developed it because it is a PF stronghold? Not at all!

Mr Mubika: Bauzeni!

Mr Mbulakulima: If anything, the Copperbelt Province has had its fair share.

Hon. Mushili talked about fighting for forex in the days of UNIP. However, it is an acknowledgement that today we do not fight for forex, meaning this Government is performing.

Mr I. Banda: Hammer!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, the British system says we perpetually want to remain employees but this is a contradiction. This Government has said that this Act does not discriminate. It gives an opportunity for any Zambian to rise and invest and become and employer.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: It does not say no Zambian should invest. Not at all!

For this reason, I throw a challenge to you, especially my colleagues from Ndola, that if you look at the beautiful Kafubu River, since creation, you have not thought of doing anything about it. Six months from now, when somebody comes from outside and invests there by making it a tourist area, you will be saying that we are giving businesses to foreigners. Where are we? Why do we not rise to the occasion?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Lundwe: Quality!

Ms Changwe: Quality mudala!

Mr Mbulakulima: Quality, yes.

Mr V. Mwale: Finally!

Mr Mbulakulima: Finally on this score, …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: … I would like to address His Honour the Vice-President. Sorry, it is not His Honour the Vice-President but the Minister of Home Affairs. At this point, let me also reveal here that the hon. Minister of Home Affairs is my nephew.

Hon. Government Members: Oh!

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: I am his uncle. Traditionally, I am supposed to give directives to him but he is a Cabinet Minister.

Mr Mulyata: There are no nephews here!

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: No, traditionally there are.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Hon. Minister of Home Affairs …

Mr Mulyata: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: … I have observed that there are Members in this House who have mentioned that when they come into office, they will arrest you.

Mrs Masebo: Even you!

Mr Mbulakulima: Including myself.

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair, hon. Minister.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: This culture is very bad and you cannot allow a situation like this to prevail. Where the hon. Minister of Home Affairs and I come from, we say you cannot tell the crocodile that it is ugly before you cross the river. Kuti cakucita akantu. I mean it can hammer you.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: How dare do you say, “We shall do this when we are in Government”? Now, I am giving directives to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! Address the Chair!

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: Address the Chair!

Mr Mbulakulima: … to arrest them because they have committed atrocities.

The Deputy Chairperson: The hon. Minister must address the Chair.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, …

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Before you continue, …

Laughter

The Deputy Chairperson: … hon. Minister, you have to address the Chair. Do not say “I appeal to you hon. Minister of Home Affairs to arrest them.” You should be appealing to the hon. Minister through the Chair. In that case, you will be addressing the Chair.

You may continue.

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I humbly appeal to the hon. Minister of Home Affairs, through you, that there are a lot of people who have committed atrocities and are in this House and everywhere. Please, look into this issue.

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: With regard to the rural roads, Mr Chairperson …

Interruptions

Mr Mbulakulima: … I do not want to be …

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

I wanted to let it pass but it might give wrong information elsewhere. When you say “there are a lot of people who have committed atrocities, including in this House”, you will leave the people out there wondering what you mean.

Can you please amplify that and continue?

Mr Mbulakulima: Thank you for your guidance. There are a lot of people who have threatened that they will do that and I want the hon. Minister of Home Affairs to look into this area because we cannot continue with these threats.

With regards to the roads, I would also like to clarify the issue so that we are not accused, as Provincial Ministers, of anything. The item on equipment clearly indicates that we are putting emphasis on rural roads.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: We are going to be biased towards that.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, I would like to submit that, the Copperbelt Province did extremely well last year. This year, we are focussed and we want to do more than what we did last year. We have been given a budgetary allocation of K36.8 billion against K30.9 billion that was given last year. All the areas of interest will be covered.

Ms Lundwe: Na K2 billion!

Mr Mbulakulima: Mr Chairperson, …

Ms Lundwe: Na K2 billion!

Mr Mbulakulima: … with these few humble and advisory …

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: … words, I present the budget for consideration.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Western Province (Mr Mufalali): Mr Chairperson …

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Obama!

Mr Mubika: Professor!

Mr Mufalali: … I thank you for giving me the Floor to say a few words to the House outlining the budget briefs for 2008 and people of Western Province’s expectations from the 2009 Budget.

Ms Lundwe: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, the mission statement for Western Province is “to effectively and efficiently provide increased and equitable access to quality socio-economic services in the province in order to promote a high standard of living.”

Interruptions

Mr Mufalali: Sir, our major goal is to promote sustainable development in the province in order to ensure quality and timely service delivery to the community in a transparent, accountable and equitable manner through effective management and efficient utilisation of financial, human and material resources.

Ms Lundwe: Obama-Mufalali!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, in 2008, Budget Office released K27,096,945,478 Supplementary Estimates inclusive, and this year’s provincial budget amounts to K28,749,615,883, broken down as follows:

Personal Emoluments  - K10,268,522,989.00
RDCs - K12,490,860,782.00

Mr D. Mwila: On a point of order, Sir.

The Deputy Chairperson: You cannot raise a point of order when the hon. Minister is answering.

You may continue, hon. Minister.

Mr Mulyata: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

PRPs - K5,990,232,112.00

There is an increase in poverty reduction programmes this year because most programmes are on going and need to be completed.

Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank the Office of the Vice-President for its quick response to the release of relief food to the province. Last year’s rainfall in the 2007/08 agricultural season impacted negatively on crops.

I would also like to thank the Government for its provision of fertiliser, through the Fertiliser Support Programme, to small-scale farmers for the 2008/09 agricultural season although the quantities supplied fell far below the demand of farmers. More than 50 per cent of eligible small-scale farmers did not benefit due to reduced amount of fertiliser that was available.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: The sandy terrain makes road construction a big challenge. The province is grateful to the Government of His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Banda, for the rural roads equipment.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: However, the province needs more tippers for ferrying gravel from long distances. Roads in my province require huge amounts of money compared to other provinces with more stable soils, as gravel may be collected from as far as 100 kilometres away from the construction sites. In my province, 40 per cent of the road networks are roads that mean much to the rural communities. With the creation of the Rural Roads Department in my province, I have made a provision of K2 billion for feeder road rehabilitation to ensure easy transportation of farm implements to rural areas and improve access to market for agricultural produce.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: I hope this intervention will assist in alleviating the suffering of our rural based small-scale farmers.

Mr Chairperson, I now want to turn to the concerns raised by my sister, Hon. Imbwae, who said the capacity building programme has not been included but I would like to say that this has been incorporated in the general administration programme. The staff welfare programmes have been transferred to the general administration programme. The forestry tree planting was done last year. Maritime activities have been taken to the line ministry and this includes all concerns on boats and canals and what has been left here is for purchase of goods and services. Mr Chairperson, the Local Government Audit Programme has been transferred to the general administration. 

Mr Chairperson, Hon. Simuusa said that His Excellency, President Banda, has failed. On this one, I would like to say that only an unreasonable man can say so because the hon. Member knows that this budget is the first one for President Banda …

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: … in which developmental programmes for Nchanga and the Copperbelt are included.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: How can you start judging him when this is his first budget whilst in office?

Mr Chairperson, I now want to respond to Hon. Milupi’s lamentation about Western Province being a province of the poorest of the poor. It can be so but we should also not forget that North-Western Province was the poorest province but, today, it is the richest province and I am sure that this listening Government will improve the province through petroleum, gas and oil deposits which have been prospected in the province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Member: Bulela, bulela!

The Deputy Chairperson: Order! No slogans in the Chamber.

Laughter

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, let me discuss Hon. Mabenga’s concerns about the Mulobezi/Walvis Bay rail line and the bad road works being done by our contractors. We acknowledge his concerns and we will check on them.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mufalali: Mr Chairperson, I have acknowledged some of the concerns of our hon. Members who debated on this budget and I can assure them that some of their concerns have been received with attention and will be worked on.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Northern Province (Mr Shawa): Mr Chairperson, muchibemba batila ati pakwakana ubunga tapaba insoni.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Meaning?

Mr Shawa: It means, when you are sharing the cake, do not be shy.

Laughter

Mr Shawa: Mpukunya matobo.

Laughter

Mr Shawa: Mr Chairperson, I would like to thank you most sincerely for according me this chance to say a few words on the expenditure for Northern Province which is the biggest province with twelve districts and possibly bigger than one of our neighbouring countries, Malawi.

Mr Chairperson, allow me to pay glowing tribute to His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice on ably presenting the policy statement on behalf of provincial administration. Mr Chairperson, allow me to thank Hon. Kapeya, Dr Chota and Hon. Munaile for their valuable words of counsel, guidance and, indeed, concern to see that Northern Province improves for the better.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: I thank all the other hon. Members for debating so well in a positive and pragmatic manner and I would like to say that I have taken note of all your concerns to help us develop Northern Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: Mr Chairperson, let me commend my Permanent Secretary and all the staff in the province for their good work to come up with this good budget. Sir, allow me to thank all hon. Members for Northern Province, non-governmental organisations, faith-based organisations, community-based organisations and co-operating partners, for their contribution to the attainment of the development agenda for the province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: I value their input to the enhancement of the well-being of the people in the province. I am hopeful, Sir, that we shall continue to work together even this year, 2009. Mr Chairperson, this year’s budget for Northern Province is K35.8 billion from that of K32.8 billion last year.

Mr Chairperson, other resources will be pouring in from other ministries to develop the Northern Province. For example, there will be resources from the Ministry of Education, Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Ministry of Communications and Transport, Ministry of Energy and Water Development and Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives to mention but a few.

Mr Chairperson, we want Northern Province to be opened up for tourism. We have money from the Ministry of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to open the road from Mbala to Kasaba Bay in the tune of K24 billion which has been allocated. It is very important that when we are looking at the budget, we must not only look at the provincial allocation but also at the budget holistically because some of the moneys are hidden in there.

Mr Chairperson, we have been given K14 billion to open up electricity in Kasaba Bay and we have also received K11 billion for Mbala airport from the Ministry of Communications and Transport. This is a lot of money that we have received and we cannot complain that Northern Province is not receiving anything at all.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: On roads, let us sometimes appreciate what this Government is doing. So far this year, Northern Province, in this budget, has been allocated K188.1 billion for the improvement of road network, second to Southern Province which has been given K189 billion and you keep on complaining that you have not been given resources.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: Mr Chairperson, road works from last year’s contracts are going on. With the new equipment, we shall ensure that prioritised feeder roads are done equitably in all the twelve districts because the programme is already there.

Mr Chairperson, in education, I would like to commend the Government for the good works so far done in this area and, indeed, much more needs to be done. We are happy that K7.9 billion has been allocated to construct one 132 classrooms in the province.

Furthermore, five high schools have been constructed…

The Deputy Chairperson: Order!

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON in the Chair]

Mr Shawa: Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. You are most welcome.

Laughter

Mr Shawa: Muchibemba balanda ati ‘Mwikala patalala mwine apatalalika.’

Laughter

The Chairperson: Meaning?

Mr Shawa: Do not take peace for granted, Madam Chair.

Hon. Members: Aah!

The Chairperson: Madam Chairperson.

Mr Shawa: Madam Chairperson, before we went on break, I was saying that we are very happy that K7.9 billion for 132 classrooms has been provided. Also, five high schools are being constructed in Muyombe, Chilubi, Mpulungu, Lupososhi and Kaputa. Other schools will also be rehabilitated and we are continuing with that programme, while staff houses are being looked into as this is a challenge in Northern Province.

Madam Chairperson, in the area of water we know that, indeed, water is life. We want to continue with improvements in this area so that our people should have clean, safe and adequate water for domestic, animal and irrigation use.

Madam Chairperson, with this economic crunch which others call an economic melt down, it is important to work hard, be introspective and use our local resources and swim above this challenge like President Obama has said and I quote: “We can”. Indeed, as Zambians, we can.

Dr Mwansa: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: I have listened to all debaters and we shall endeavour to develop Northern Province holistically in all areas of social, cultural and economic spheres. Already, change can be felt, seen and experienced in Northern Province. Work plans have been prepared and procurement plans have now been prepared and we are just waiting to go full blast into developing Northern Province.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to caution and advise that the Presidency must be a respected institution. It is not good for people to play around with that office. We, as Zambians, must not demean ourselves.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: Tomorrow, you will hear that Hon. Kambwili is threatening to walk naked to State House.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: Then, we will see Hon. Chishimba going to exhibit his long beard.

Dr Chishimba: Question!

Laughter

Mr Shawa: We do not want this. Let us respect the President. His Excellency, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, has a vision and he is continuing with the vision of the late President.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: He wants to develop this area. We are very happy that he visited Northern Province and we are going to see a lot of progress in that area, especially in the sphere of tourism.

Hon. Government Members:  Hear, hear!

Mr Shawa: Madam Chairperson, I must say that we will not allow Northern Province to lag behind.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Quality!

The Chairperson: The hon. Deputy Minister for North-Western Province.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr V. Mwale: Strong man.

Hon. Opposition Member: Gary Nkombo.

The Minister for North-Western Province (Mr Mulyata): Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for according me to debate on the provincial budget. First of all, I want to thank the three Members of Parliament from North-Western Province that spoke on the provincial budget, that is, Hon. Mwanza, Hon. Kakoma and Hon. Katuka.

Madam Chairperson, I want to state, on the onset, that this provincial budget which we are talking about is from the K3 trillion budget for the whole country. However, as we debate here, all of us …

Hon. Members: K15 trillion.

Mr Mulyata: I mean K15 trillion. I beg to correct the figure, Madam Chairperson. Now, when we talk about K15 trillion, I expected that all of us, as we talk, should be talking within the parameters of K15 trillion.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, looking at the demands, claims and wants of those who stood up to speak, they spoke as if we are in America where they have huge reserves that have no limitations. As a result, these people on this side are always condemned, insulted and, at times, even used and called all sorts of names, as if they have so much money which they do not use to develop provinces and other areas. Meanwhile, those people on your left, Madam Chairperson, know very well that it is within this parameter that we are supposed to talk. When we talk about the development of schools, roads, health institutions, salaries and wages of our people, the money comes from the same K15 trillion. Now, when you talk recklessly, where do you think the money is coming from? Where is it going to come from?

Secondly, you people have talked about copper, investors and whatever. Whose copper is that?

Hon. Opposition Members: It is ours.

Mr Mulyata: It is our copper. It is for the Zambian people. So, the first people who are supposed to mine that copper were yourselves, not investors.  You are supposed to have mines yourselves. Why are you failing?

Mr Mulonga: They are just sitting.

Mr Mulyata: You are seated there criticising all the time, through you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: We are talking about a lot of deposits in this country …

Hon. Government Member: And oil.

Mr Mulyata: … including oilo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Oil.

Mr Mulyata: Oilo.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, the first item on the agenda is that we, the Zambian people, are supposed to exploit the resources of this country, not investors.

Hon. Opposition Member interjected.

Mr Mulyata: Why do we go and kneel before other people to come and help us? It is because you have failed to exploit these resources. That is why we are doing that.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: Now, the fact is that on our own we cannot extract copper, oil and many other minerals within our vicinity. That is why we are saying, let us not die but let us go and ask those that have the capacity and money to come and help us.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear! Bulela, bulela!

Mr Mulyata: Those are the reasons you are supposed to consider when debating. However, the Opposition, in their debates, claim that we can do it ourselves and question why the Government is bringing in foreign investors. How many years have the copper deposits been in the ground and why have we not extracted them? Even the oil today …

Hon. Government Member: What are we waiting for?

Mr Mulyata: What are you waiting for (pointing at the Opposition)? Go and extract the oil.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, this Government is trying to create conducive conditions that are going to attract other people to come and invest in this country.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Mulyata: If the conditions in this country are not conducive, foreign investors will not come here to help us. Investing in Zambia is not the first priority on their agenda. You should know that. You are supposed to help this Government …

The Chairperson: Address them through the Chair. You are supposed to say, “They.”

Mr Mbulakulima: Nakalipa, mudala.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, we should not start quarreling over obvious things. On one hand we are quarreling and on the other hand, we saying that investors should come and invest in this country. How can they come? It is very easy for the Government to stop investors from coming to Zambia so that our oil and mineral deposits are not extracted. However, what are we going to do with them?

As regards farming, I heard some people say that we should bring Egyptians and other nationals to come and farm. This shows that the Zambian people have failed to do their own farming.

Ms Lundwe: Bulela, mudala.

Mr Mulyata: What the Government is trying do is negotiate and tell the people who can do these things for us that Zambia is a good country and has this and that so that they can help us extract these deposits. In the process, our people can be employed and have money for their livelihood. After all, we are the ones that bear children in this country.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: We bear children and fail to feed them.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, I just wanted to say that as my preamble.

Some people have even threatened to arrest us if they come to power. Arrest who and for what? Do you think that you are going to scare us by saying that we shall be arrested?

The Chairperson: Order, hon. Minister! Use the word ‘them’ and not ‘you’.

Mr Mulyata: I will address them through you, Madam Chairperson.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: We shall not be arrested. This Government is trying to correct things. Even if the Opposition might one day come to this side of the House, I know this will not happen.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: They should not threaten, but just give us the correct advice. The hon. Members sitting here are always listening, trying to get good advice and implement it. We are implementing all of the Government’s programmes for the good of the people of this country. Now, when they threaten us …

Mr Mbulakulima: We will just beat them now.

Laughter

Mr Mulyata: I would like to give an example. Last year, when the price of copper was very good, the Opposition insisted on collecting windfall tax from the mining companies.  Due to persistence by our colleagues, we, on this side, decided to implement what our friends were proposing. However, now that the price of copper has come down, we have decided to withdraw the windfall tax.

Madam Chairperson, Hon. Kakoma talked about the Mutanda/Chavuma Road. I would like to make it clear that it is not the whole of the Mutanda/Chavuma Road that requires tarring but only the part from Kabompo to Chavuma. We should be honest when we talk about these issues. The part from Mutanda to Kabompo is already tarred and, therefore, there is no need for us to be talking about tarring the entire Mutanda-Chavuma Road.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mulyata: The part that is remaining is from Kabompo to Chavuma. So there is no need for our colleagues to be laughing and calling this Government names when it has promised to work on this road.

Madam Chairperson, secondly …

Mr Kakoma walked in.

Ms Lundwe: Kakoma, you are back. Listen here.

Mr Mulyata: I know my brother has just come in now, but that is the truth.

The Chairperson: Order! Just continue with your present course of debate.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Otherwise, you will find that time has gone and you have not brought out all your points.

Mr Mulyata: Madam Chairperson, I know that there are about four or five districts in North-Western Province that do not have electricity. They are using thermo energy but the Government is very much aware of these district centres and is going to provide electrical power to them.

Madam, I want to inform this House, and the nation at large, that I have hope that the lives of the people of North-Western Province are going to improve because a lot of entrepreneurs are now looking forward to investing in this province. A lot of things, such as road infrastructure, are improving.

I heard someone say that there is no resettlement for people that are being displaced by investments currently taking place in the province. My fellow hon. Minister rightly stated that huge potions of traditional land have actually been given to the Government to create new farming blocks and this is being done.

As regards schools in the province, new ones are being constructed while some old ones are being rehabilitated. As I am speaking, some boreholes are being sunk in the province. I can also state that there are some health posts that are being constructed and some are being rehabilitated.

Madam Chairperson, I know that some time back, this province was neglected but that is no longer the case because this Government is working so hard to see to it that a lot of development goes to that area. Right now there are some companies that have come to open up more mines in the North-Western Province. When we open up these mines in the North-Western Province, and in Mwinilunga in particular, all those people that are not employed will have jobs. The hon. Member of Parliament there can actually be my witness. Even with regard to the power deficit, there is a big company that is coming to work with other mining companies to put up infrastructure that is going to improve the power that is actually giving us problems, not only in the province but in the country as a whole.

Madam Chairperson, I would, therefore, like to appeal to hon. Members of the House to debate these issues within the confines of our capacities as a country. The hon. Members on your left should not exaggerate things and debate as though the people on this side do not know what resources are in this country. What they know is what we also know, but it is only that this time we are ruling and we shall continue.

I thank very much, Madam.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Central Province (Mr A. Banda): Madam Chairperson, I will start by responding to some queries that the two hon. Members of Parliament from Central Province brought up. The first one was Hon. Shakafuswa who commended us for the job that we are doing in Central Province. I thank him so much for this.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. Banda: He is followed by Hon. Edward Kasoko, Member of Parliament for Mwembeshi.

Hon. Kokoso, Kasoko or whatever.

Laughter

The Chairperson: There is no whatever. You must mention the name.

Mr A. Banda: Whatever the name is.

The Chairperson: Order! Hon. Minister, the name is known. You had better try it.

Mr A. Banda: Hon. Edward Kasoko made some very wrong allegations.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr A. Banda: To start with, he said that from Serenje up to Mumbwa, the infrastructure has been run down. The problem that he has is that he does not even go to his constituency. So, to say that the infrastructure has been run down is not true.

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: He stays here in Lusaka. So, how can he know the status of the infrastructure from Serenje to Mumbwa? The last time he visited his constituency was when I asked him to accompany me from Lusaka to his constituency in Mwembeshi. The people there blamed him and said the man stays in Lusaka.

Therefore, come 2011, I do not think that this man will survive.

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: Hon. Kasoko talked about a grader in Mkushi. How can a person who stays in Lusaka be talking about a grader in Mkushi? He went on to talk about the Chinese graders.

What we are doing in Central Province is that we are going district by district, distributing graders and the first district that we attended to was Serenje. We did not take those graders to Mkushi. Right now, they are in Kapiri Mposhi. Therefore you can see what kind of man he is.

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: Not only that - he also talked of the same graders being hired out. We do not hire out Government graders because there is no provision for such things. If he is talking about the graders in Mkushi, they are owned by the Mkushi commercial farmers. Some two days ago, I was in Mkushi with His Excellency the President, Mr Rupiah Bwezani Banda, when we were looking at the commercial farmers who are in Mkushi. Those commercial farmers own their own equipment which include graders. If he saw one grader at one farmer’s place, that is the owner of that grader.

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: The grader in question is a private one. As I said, there are farmers who own graders in Mkushi.

Ms Changwe: Hear, hear!

Mr A. Banda: On education, I agree with the hon. Minister of Education who even raised a point of order on him because he was telling something that does not even exist. I took him to his constituency …

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: … to go and look at a 1 X 2 classroom block.

Mrs Musokotwane: You took him?

Mr A. Banda: Yes, I took him. He does not go there.

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: I took him there and looked at a 1 X 2 classroom block which was vandalised and washed away. From there, I took the initiative of going to the Ministry of Education and got money to construct this 1 X 2 classroom block, but the hon. Member has not gone there to check.

Mr Hachipuka: He has not yet gone to check?

Mr A. Banda: As hon. Members of Parliament, we are supposed to be supervising projects.

Hon. Opposition Members: Budget!

Mr A. Banda: I am responding to what he said.

Interruptions

Mr A. Banda: These are the two hon. Members who are bringing confusion in the province. Mr Kasoko who wants to bring confusion, but I will not let him. Otherwise, we are a peaceful province.

Laughter

Mr A. Banda: Let me come to the outlook of our budget. A total of K7.9 billion has been allocated for the implementation of the Fifth National Development Plan in the province as follows:

(i) K1 billion has been allocated for the infrastructure development, civil works for offices and staff houses, especially in the districts. In addition, K360 million has been allocated for procurement of motor vehicles and transport management for district offices;

(ii) under health, the improvement of health services in the province has been allocated K1 billion. In addition, K1 billion has been set aside for the construction and rehabilitation of schools in the province;

(iii) under agriculture, K500 million has been allocated for the Cattle Restocking Exercise while K200 million has been set aside for animal disease control;

(iv) under rural roads, K2 billion has been allocated for rehabilitation and construction of rural roads in the province;

(v) the land resettlement scheme has been allocated K150 million for completion of the on-going projects while K350 million has been reserved for the establishment of Katanino Resettlement Scheme in Kapiri Mposhi;

(vi) under the Forestry Department, K35 million has been set aside for promotion of bee-keeping and mushroom propagation activities while K48.3 million has been reserved for awareness and publicity campaigns;

(vii) under the water sector, K480 million has been reserved for the development of ground works in form of drilling of boreholes and water resources management.

(viii) community development has been allocated K250 million for self-help projects and food processing activities; and

(ix) in the cultural industry, K150 million has been allocated for the construction of a cultural village in Kabwe. An additional of K35 million has been reserved for the construction of the Provincial Planning Unit offices.

In conclusion, hon. Members of Parliament, the development efforts during 2009 will continue to address poverty reduction among the vulnerable communities. Every effort will continue to be made towards enhancing the efficiency of programme implementation at the local level. It is further hoped that disbursement of funds for development programmes will improve in this fiscal year. The need for wider stakeholder participation in monitoring and evaluating these interventions will, therefore, be critical, particularly at district and community levels.

I, therefore, implore the hon. Members of this House to also actively participate in the development process in their respective constituencies.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister for Luapula Province (Dr Kawimbe): Madam Chairperson, thank you for giving me the opportunity to wind up debate on the Estimates of Expenditure for Luapula Province.

Madam Chairperson, allow me to begin by paying glowing tribute to His Honour, the Vice-President and Minister of Justice who presented the policy debate on our behalf. Job well done, Your Honour.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kawimbe: I would like to begin by paying tribute to Hon. Magande who has floated a very important idea, which I am sure His Honour the Vice-President and Minister of Justice will give serious consideration to, mainly that Provincial Ministers need a Front Bench by being made full Cabinet Ministers.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, allow me to thank the hon. Members of this august House individually and severally for their support of the 2009 Budget for Luapula Province. Special thanks should go to the hon. Member for Luapula, Dr Machungwa, the hon. Member for Mwense, Mr Chongo and the hon. Member for Bahati, Mr Chimbaka. I would like to thank all the hon. Members for their concerns and insightful of observations and recommendations. I would like to assure them that President Rupiah Bwezani Banda’s Government will not spare any effort in addressing the concerns raised by the hon. Members and these include:

(a) the Mansa/Kashikishi/Lwanchinda Road;
(b) commencement of the infrastructural development for the Luena Sugar Cane Farm Block in Kawambwa;
(c) extension of the cell phone network in the province;
(d) investment in water transport; 
(e) investment in the maintenance of canal channels; and
(f) investment in the development of the livestock industry.

Madam Chairperson, with your indulgence, allow me to give the hon. Members a bird’s eye view of the sectors that will receive extra attention in 2009. The fishing industry is, in Luapula Province, what the mining industry is in the Copperbelt and North-Western provinces, and cattle are for Southern and Western provinces. The people of Luapula Province applaud the creation of the Ministry of Fisheries and Livestock by His Excellency, Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kawimbe: We also applaud the Government of Finland for the Programme for Luapula Agricultural and Rural Development (PLARD) which is a K55 billion three-year programme whose core activities include fish restocking and farming.

Madam Chairperson, we also applaud the Government of the Democratic Republic of Congo who are warmly collaborating with us in enforcing the fish ban and in the sustainable exploitation of our fish natural resources  in the shared waters of the Luapula River and Lake Mweru.

Madam Chairperson, because maize does not grow well without fertiliser, fertiliser prices are now pegged beyond the reach of the vast majority of our small-scale farmers and because of the limited capacity of our Government to meet the fertiliser demands of our estimated 1,200,000 farmers, the people of Luapula Province are diversifying from maize as a staple food to cassava, sorghum, millet and rice. These are crops that grow in our soils without fertiliser. We applaud the efforts of the Ministry of Agriculture and Co-operatives in the promotion of cassava, rice, sorghum and millet. These are, again, crops that grow in our soils without fertiliser. We also applaud the Finnish Government for supporting the diversification away from maize.

Madam Chairperson, the people of Luapula Province are grateful to the Government of His Excellency, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, for the construction of the Mwanawasa Bridge across the Luapula River at Chembe…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kawimbe: … at a cost of K59 billion. We are now looking forward to the tarring of the Pedicle Road.

The people of Luapula are happy that the contractor has moved on site to start the resurfacing of the Tuta/Mansa Road at a cost of K153 billion. Our major concern, however, as a province, is the Mansa/Kashikishi Road which requires urgent attention and is not catered for in this budget. The people of Luapula Province are appealing to the hon. Ministers of Finance and National Planning, and Works and Supply to consider supplementary funding for the pothole mending of the Mansa/Kashikishi Road until money is found for the complete resurfacing of the road.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, the people of Luapula applaud the Danish Government through the Dannish Development Agency (DANNIDA) for their planned resurfacing of the Chembe/Mansa Road. We also applaud their planned interest in resurfacing the Mansa/Luwingu Road. The people of Luapula Province are very grateful to the Government of His Excellency, Rupiah Bwezani Banda, for the road construction and maintenance equipment that we have received which we will use in the improvement of the rural road network.

Sir, the exploitation of mineral wealth of Luapula Province has begun in earnest with manganese open pit mining leading the way. The people of Luapula Province are very grateful to the hon. Minister of Mines and Minerals Development for visiting Luapula Province recently and opening a provincial office of his ministry in Mansa in order to oversee the mining operations in the province. The people of Luapula Province are very grateful to the hon. Minister of Tourism, environment and Natural Resources for including Luapula Province in the Northern Circuit Tourism Development Programme.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Kawimbe: The construction of the control tower which is underway and the construction of a new terminal building scheduled to start soon at Mansa Airport will improve the air system transportation in the province and contribute to the growth of tourism. The 2009 Budget estimates include K666 million for the promotion of tourism in Luapula Province. We also say job well done to the hon. Ministers of Health, and Education. Please, continue with the good work.

In conclusion, I would like to say that Luapula Province is reaffirming its commitment to implement Government programmes and projects according to this budget.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister of Southern Province (Mr Munkombwe): Madam Chairperson, may I thank you for affording me this opportunity to make comments on the current budget as it is in the Southern Province.

Mr Mubika: Jack Mwiimbu.

Mr Munkombwe: Madam, may I first of all preface my comments on the political sentiments that have been expressed by some of the hon. Members from Southern Province. I want to take comfort from an English saying which says, “God grant me the serenity to understand those things which I cannot change…

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … and give me the wisdom to know those things that I am capable of changing.”

Using that scenario, Madam Chairperson, I have never said to anyone - the President of the country included - that the MMD would win anywhere in the Southern Province. I recognise that I cannot change a system that is ethnically based. I cannot change it overnight…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … but, Madam Chairperson, we will eat into their meat.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: We will reduce their power…

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: … and the purpose of continuing any government by any political party is to extol margins. When you extol the margins, you can then understand the consequences of moving in a particular direction. Politics is about facing political realities. The political architecture in this country is such that if one wins an election by 30,000 votes, the aim of the opponent should be to reduce that margin. That way you get to keep your position in the Government. I can proudly say that I was, at one time, a leading member of the African National Congress (ANC). However, we lost elections in 1962, 1964 and 1968. At that point, Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula knew that he had lost the power and vision and began to negotiate with the United National Independence Party (UNIP).

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: If you cannot beat them, …

Hon. MMD Members: Join them.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … join them.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, take this as a fact. Today is the 27th of March, 2009. If you cannot win elections three times, you become consigned to the archives of history.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: In 2001, our people were told that they lost elections and would win in 2006, but they did not. In 2008, again, our people were put in a cold room waiting for 2011. We have become part of history. That is how UNIP went into history.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That is how the ANC went into history.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That is how every political party which loses three elections …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … consecutively, will become.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: It does not matter what fantasy you live in.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That is the basic truth of political history.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: That is what happened in some countries.

Hon. MMD Member: Hamududu! Listen to wisdom!

Mr Munkombwe: That is what happened in Kenya. Under Ronald Ngara, the Kenya African Development Union (KADU), lost elections three times.

Hon. Opposition Members: Budget! Discuss the budget!

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, I want to be listened to.

Hon. Opposition Members: No! Talk about that budget.

Hon. MMD Members: Hammer, Minister!

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, it is difficult to reply to speeches that are directed at individuals and often coated in intimidation and threats.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Threats are antiquated. I hope that is correct English.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: This is not a House for politicking. This is a house for bargaining.

Hon. Opposition Members: You are the one who is politicking.

Mr Munkombwe:  This is a House where people must learn to negotiate. The elected hon. Members of Parliament from that side are the cream. Those hon. Members on your left are the cream of the country. However, they must use appetising language so that they can be listened to.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: When you begin to say that you will pity us in 2011, we are not sitting idly by.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: The MMD is not sitting idly.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Get this.

Mr Milupi: On a point of order, Madam.

Hon. MMD Members: Awe!

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, the other groups know where to go if they see that they do not get their vote for a third time. They will go where there is the Government.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: That is a fact.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Forget!

Mr Munkombwe:  I want to return to what the Government is doing in the Southern Province. I want to say that the colour of a political party has no consequence when it comes to Government funding. The Southern Province has the highest amount of funds to the tune of K35.6 billion. We are only matched by the Northern Province.

Hon. Member: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe:  In terms of road infrastructure development, the Southern Province has got K189 Billion, while the Northern Province has K188 billion.

Ms Changwe: Kamwamba badala!

Mr Munkombwe: In terms of the share of our relief, I will not mention the figure because other people will question the Government why.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I will not mention because I do not want to strip myself naked. We got the highest figure, again, in terms of food relief.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, yes, we need more in terms of road development. However, the Monze /Nico and Batoka/Maamba roads are being worked on.

Hon. MMD Members: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: The Choma/Nico Road is being worked on, albeit at a slow pace and I am not satisfied. As far as I am concerned, I will not take outside whatever words of exchange on anything. I am prepared to work with the elected people in the Southern Province.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: I will get into their cars. I know they will not push me out.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I will get into their cars. I will get into Hon. Jack Mwiinbu’s vehicle so that people cannot backbite either of us.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Let us bridge the gap. My age does not allow me to quarrel with people who are elected.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Whatever you have said against me is history. I will sit with you proudly any time. There is no way I can ignore elected people. If you want to ignore me, you can use the PS. If you cannot use the PS you can use the District Commissioner (DC). If not, please, grudgingly accept whatever I suggest even if you are looking somewhere else.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Grudgingly accept whatever I want.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe:  In Tonga, we say cishyu cini cimana nsima kotonka. If the relish is bad, you eat it first and, after you are satisfied, push the plates away.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe:  Take whatever I have to offer, albeit grudgingly.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe:  I know that when the tempers rise in this House, sometimes, people do not choose their words. That is how I take it. My friend’s son, young Chizhyuka, …

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: … as we go out, I will be with him in his father’s home. I take no grudge against you.

Madam, we have had so many dams dug in the Southern Province, forty of which have been planted with fish.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: About eighteen of them are in Monze District.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Monze District has many dams. Of course, some of them were left by colonial farmers. That is what raises the number. However, Let us not reduce ourselves in the Southern Province to some level like the other provinces. Our farming community is in the middle management level.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, Hear!
 
Mr Munkombwe: Sir, there is no management beginner category in the Southern Province.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Of course, we want them to get into higher management level. I also want to say that, please, we have been confining our people to some form of system, but let us tell them that there are no federal structures of Government. We are a unitary Government. They belong to the mother government and, this time around, with a leader who is a proven diplomat, educationist and manager. That is His Excellency Rupiah Bwezani Banda.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: There is no other way.  You cannot change history.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: It is not right to say that these four governments - Kaunda’s Chiluba’s, Dr Mwanawasa’s and now Rupiah Banda’s - have impoverished the Southern Province. That is not correct! It is also not correct to say we have done nothing. Look at the building where we are. That is Kaunda’s and my self’s job.

Laughter

Hon. Government Members: Hammer, hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Look at the University of Zambia and all secondary schools in most districts. Look at Monze, Chipepo, Pemba and Kalomo secondary schools. They were all built by the UNIP Government. All these four Presidents have played their roles.

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

Mr Munkombwe: Kaunda and Harry Mwaanga Nkumbula liberated us from the colonialists. Chiluba also unlocked the dictatorial box and people are free.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: That was Chiluba.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Therefore, he also made a contribution.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Unfortunately, some people want obliterate that and I am not part of that.

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: Levy Mwanawasa started digging up whatever went wrong with Kaunda and Chiluba. That is how we should recognise Presidents.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Munkombwe: It is not that we want to live in their homes. No!

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Hon. Members of Parliament will get six graders for the Southern Province and do not say you have brought them because they are bought by the Government.

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: Ride with the driver and they will do more. Therefore, we need each other. Do not have an attitude of saying we do not want to plead. Hon. Mwiimbu, I beg you …

Laughter

Mr Mwiimbu: You have mentioned me!

Laughter

Mr Munkombwe: I lie down by pleading to you. Please, ndakomba. You are a clean person.

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: You time is up, hon. Minister!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

Madam Chairperson: Order!

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice: Madam Chairperson, in winding up the debate on the provinces, I wish to thank the hon. Members for supporting the various budget allocations to the provinces. I would like to remind hon. Members that we are all national leaders. Therefore, in our debates and in looking at allocations to the provinces, we should look at these things in a nationalistic manner. Where there is inequity in the allocation of resources, according to your views, let us know. After all, hon. Members are there to lobby their Government to address any imbalance.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that in this budget, all the provinces will benefit in terms of development. We should not only look at the provincial vote, but at the budget holistically. This money in the budget will be spent in all the provinces. We are building high and technical schools in all the provinces. There are a lot of other projects which we are attending to.

Some provinces in rural areas are suffering some kind of impoverishment because of lack of investment. For example, the whole picture for the North-Western Province has changed because of direct foreign investment in the mines.

As hon. Members of Parliament, we should be lobbying investors to come to our provinces and, by investors, I mean both local and foreign investment. It is such investment which is going to develop the rural areas.

The same applies to Western Province which Hon. Milupi was talking about and if you look at the figures, you will notice that it is not true that Western Province has the least allocation. In fact, in Western Province, we are building six high schools and several basic schools. Western Province is one of the most beautiful parts of Zambia and a lot of investors can go to that province.

Therefore, Hon. Milupi, as a Member of Parliament, use your influence so that we can invest in the province. As a Government, we shall continue to do our best and, where provinces are lagging behind in development, it is our duty to do the best that we can and within the resources available. I know that there have been debates and complaints about inadequate resources from all the provinces and this is because we have a limited resource envelope. Therefore, what we can do is limited by the budget, which is K15 trillion. Having said that, I wish to thank all the hon. Members for supporting the various votes.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 90/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 90/24 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – Social Welfare Department – K951,260,519).

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, on  Programme 3, Activity 01 – Matero After Care Centre, there is K12,000,000 when in all the previous years we have had K128,490,000. Is this a mistake or what, because this is a centre?

Mr Mangani: Madam Chairperson, there is a reduction because most of the money will come from the line ministry.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Vote 90/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 90/40 – (Office of the President – Community Development Department – K1,291,233,939).

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister said that the line ministry has provided for Matero After Care Centre but there is nothing under Community Development Department. Therefore, is he serious that there is money somewhere because we might get into a crisis during the year if we do not correct the problem?

The Chairperson: Hon. Member, those are things you should look for well in time. It is too late and we have passed that part.

Vote 90/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 90/44 – (Office of the President – Lusaka Province – Provincial Local Government Office – K561,493,510).

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 9 – Audits. I do not see any resources allocated for auditing.

Mr Mangani: Madam Chairperson, if you check under Head Office, you will find that there is money allocated for audits. We did not want to spread the money to the department.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 90/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 90/49 ─ (Office of the President ─ Lusaka Province ─ Provincial Planning Unit -K529,763, 200)

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 11, Activity 02 ─ Preparation of District Development Plans ─ K25,230,000. I noticed earlier that there is the Department of Physical Planning under Lusaka Province and they have a similar Vote. I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether these functions have been divided into semi departments.

Mr Mangani: Madam Chairperson, it is exactly as she says. The two have been split so that there is efficiency.

I thank you, Madam.

Vote 90/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 90/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimate.

Vote 90/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimate.

Vote90/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimate.

Vote 90/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimate.

VOTE 91/01 ─ (Office of the President ─ Copperbelt Province ─ K6,585,526,110)

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 ─ Construction of Health Posts ─ K80,000,000. I would like to find out which health posts will be constructed, how many they will be and where they will be constructed.

Madam Chairperson, may I also have clarification on the same programme, Activity 03 ─ Solar Installation to Rural Health Posts ─ K20,000,000. I would like find out how many solar panels are there and which health posts are affected.

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Chairperson, two health posts will be constructed, one in Chavuma and the other at Bangwe. The same K20,000,000 will be used in Masaiti.

I thank you, Madam.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister mentioned two places but I do not know where they are. I want to know. Are they in Ndola, Lufwanyama or somewhere else?

Hon. MMD Members: Aah! Ukamwipushe mu office ifyo.

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Chairperson, obviously, they are on the Copperbelt, but in Masaiti District.

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 91/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 91/16 ─ (Office of the President ─ Copperbelt Province ─ Forestry Department -K1,728,691,823)

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 7, Activity 04 ─ Blitz Patrols ─ K38,049,000. Last year, K188,800,000 was allocated. This year, only K38 million has been allocated. Why is there a reduction in this budget line?

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Chairperson, I thank the hon. Member for being very active.

Laughter

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Chairperson, the figure has been cut to K38 million because from the K188 million allocated last year, we managed to buy a motor vehicle. This year, therefore, the money is less because we have a motor vehicle.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, I wonder why we bought a motor vehicle from the money which is supposed to be used for patrols. A motor vehicle is a capital item, but why did you buy it on current expenditure?

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! I think that becomes a bit difficult, honourable Member.

Vote 91/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 91/41 − (Office of the President − Copperbelt Province − Youth Development Centre − K823,321,090).

Mr Mukanga: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Unit 1, Programme 7, activity 01 − Construction of Youth Skills Centre − K100,000,000. I want to know the training centre and where it is being constructed.

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Chairperson, I hope the hon. Member will not be tired of the same answer.

As you may be aware, our urban areas have various youth skills centres and this time around, we are in Masaiti. This activity is for Masaiti District.

I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Laughter

Vote 91/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

_____{mospagebreak}

ANNOUNCEMENT

DINNER ARRANGEMENTS

The Chairperson: I wish to announce to the House that the following arrangements have been made for dinner this evening.

(i) Dinner for all hon. Members will be served in the National Assembly Restaurant here at Parliament buildings;

(ii) Dinner for members of staff and Government officials will be served at the National Assembly Members’ Motel;

(iii) Dinner will be provided at the courtesy of the Hon. Mr Speaker; and

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

(iv) Dinner break will be from 2000 until 2100 hours.

Hon. Members are required to be seated in the Chamber by 2100 hours. All Whips are requested to ensure that a quorum is formed at 2100 hours.

Thank you.

Business was suspended from 2000 hours until 2100 hours.

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the 
Chair]

VOTE 91/51 – (Office of the President – Copperbelt Province – Provincial Accounting Unit – K1,394,996,774).

Mr Mushili (Ndola Central): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 2, Activity 10 – Financial Management System - FMS –K53,160,000. This allocation has risen from K42,264,465 to K53,160,000. Considering the malpractices the department experienced last year, could the Provincial Minister explain what has necessitated a K4 million increase to this activity?

Mr Mbulakulima: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member has answered the question partly. What necessitated the increase were the malpractices in the department. Definitely, this means we have to strengthen it. However, there is need for financial system controls because things such as technology keep changing. Crime is also becoming sophisticated. Therefore, there is need for us to increase the budget to arrest the situation.

I thank you, Madam

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mushili: Madam Chairperson, will the improvement of the management of finances control the malpractices that have been at the provincial administration?

Hon. Government Members: Yes!

The Chairperson: That kind of question ought to have been raised during policy debate. We are now clarifying figures and not policy.

Mr Mushili: We want to know if it will improve the system.

The Chairperson: Order!

We move on.

Vote 91/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 91/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 91/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 92/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 92/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 92/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 93/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 93/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 93/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 93/56 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/07 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 94/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 94/54 ─ (Office of the President ─ Western Province ─ Maritime and Inland Waterways Department ─ K138,250,000).

Dr Machungwa: Madam Chairperson, Programme 7, Activity 01 ─ Canal Maintenance, has no allocation. Can the hon. Minister explain why this is so. Are the canals not going to be maintained?

Mr Mufalali: Madam Chairperson, the activity has been taken to the line ministry.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Vote 94/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 94/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 95/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 95/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 95/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 96/01 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Headquarters – K8,296,278,961).

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 3, Activity 01 – Government Hostels – K30,000,000, why has this amount been allocated because Mansa Hotel makes its own money? Secondly, on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Procurement of an Ambulance –  K200,000,000, you will recall that each constituency was given K100 million last year and Activity 01 has been maintained. I do not know why and where that K200 million is going. The hon. Provincial Minister was not there at the time.

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 3, Activity 01, the hon. Member will realise that capital projects require an injection of money and that may not be available from their regular income. On Programme 7, Activity 01, it seems the hon. Member for Chipili knows more about this than I do as he indicated that I was not there. The decrease is due to the fact that the K200 million is meant for the procurement of an ambulance for Mansa General Hospital.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 96/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/03 – (Office of the President –Luapula Province – Rural Roads Unit – K2,316,979,318).

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, on Programme 7, Activity 01 – Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Mansa – K327,520,000, Activity 02 - Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Samfya –  K145,955,00, Activity 03 - Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Kawambwa – K327,520,000, Activity 04 –  Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Chienge – K327,520,000, Activity 05 - Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Milenge – K327,520,000, Activity 06 - Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Mwense – K186,165,000 and Activity 07 - Rehabilitation of Rural Roads in Nchelenge – K186,165,000, there is a difference in the way money has been allocated to districts. I want to know why. Secondly, we have been told that each province has been given K2 billion, but the Programme Total is K1,828,245,000. Will the hon. Minister explain where the K172 million is?

The Chairperson: Can you ask your question again? Is it on Page 1,535?

Mr D. Mwila: Madam Chairperson, it is on Programme 7 – Road Infrastructure. There is a difference in the way figures have been allocated to each district. Will the hon. Minister explain why those differences. We have also been told that each province has been given K2 billion, but the Programme Total is K1,828,245,000. Will the hon. Deputy Minister explain where the K172 million is?

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, I think there should be no confusion here. K2 billion has been allocated to each province and the actual distribution of that will be decided by each provincial administration. Therefore, we will ensure that the funds for the rural roads are distributed equitably.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr D. Mwila: The question, Madam Chairperson, is why the differences because Mansa District, for example, has been given K327,520,000 and Mwense District has been given K186,165,000.

Mrs Masebo:  Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: Order!

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, I am sure the hon. Member for Chipili appreciates the fact that the network is different in each district and so we cannot expect an equal distribution of the funds.

Thank you, Madam.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 96/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 69/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Hon. Members, I need to hear myself. When you consult loudly, I am forced to hear what you are saying and that makes it difficult for me to get the figures right. Therefore, can you, please, consult quietly?

Vote 96/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 96/49 – (Office of the President – Luapula Province – Provincial Planning Unit –K606,849,760).

Mr Chongo (Mwense): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 1, Activity 01 – Salaries Division I, Activity 02 –Salaries Division II and Activity 03 – Other Emoluments. I have noticed that nothing has been allocated, and yet there are programmes that will be running under this vote. Can the hon. Minister explain who will be administering these activities?

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, as you will realise, there may be need to take on additional staff during the year. That is the provision that has been made here.

The Chairperson: Hon. Minister there is no provision for Activities 01 - Salaries Division I, Activity 02 - Salaries Division II and Activity 03 – Other Emoluments. The question is: who will administer the department?

Dr Kawimbe: Madam Chairperson, these activities have gone to the Planning Department under the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Ma doctors, aya!

Vote 96/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 96/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 97/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/35 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/47 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/53 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 97/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 98/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/02 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Zambia News and Information Services – 1,174,788,297).

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson I seek clarification on Vote 98/01.

The Chairperson: We have already gone beyond Vote 98/01. Next time, do not remain behind. Can we move on?

Vote 98/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/03 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/08 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/09 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/16 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/17 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/18 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/19 – (Office of the President – Southern Province – Water Affairs Department – K2,959,863,441).

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 8, Activity 01 – Construction of boreholes and dams- K342,577,000 and Activity 02 – Rehabilitation of dams – K36,940,000. I have noticed that under Activity 01, this year, there is a reduction. Could the hon. Minister, perhaps, guide me as to which dams will be rehabilitated and which boreholes will be sunk?

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, the decrease is due to budgetary constraints. The rehabilitation of dams is based on all dams that may have some cracks. This figure is required to meet the cost of the rehabilitation of dams.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 98/19 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 98/23 ─ (Office of the President ─ Southern Province ─ Labour and Factories Department - K682,285,129).

Mr Nsanda (Chimwemwe): Madam Chairperson, may I have clarification on Programme 6, Activity 01 ─ Telephone ─ K20,000,000, Activity 02 ─ Electricity ─ K5,000,000, Activity 03 ─ Postal Charges ─ K1,750,000 and Activity 04 ─ Water ─ K2,000,000. Does this mean that all these years, there have been no telephones, electricity, postal charges and water in the Labour and Factories Department? 

Mr Munkombwe: Madam Chairperson, there have been constant complaints concerning the bills owed by Government departments. This year, the Government has tried to put aside some money for them. That is why there are these new activities.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon MMD Members: hear, hear!

Vote 98/23 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/24 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/25 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/36 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/37 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/40 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/41 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/42 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/43 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/44 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/45 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/46 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.
Vote 98/48 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/49 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/51 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/52 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/54 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 98/55 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

VOTE 99 − (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure − K1,830,133,369,178).

The Minister of Finance and National Planning (Dr Musokotwane): Madam Chairperson, the Ministry of Finance and National Planning remains committed to the effective and efficient co-ordination of national planning, economic management, mobilisation and management of public financial and economic resources in a transparent and accountable manner in order to sustain national development and enhance the quality of life of the people of Zambia.

In support of this resolve, the ministry will, in 2009, undertake a number of measures aimed at effectively controlling and utilising expenditures under this head. This is the head from which Constitutional Statutory Expenditures and provided for in the budget. These expenditures include external and domestic debt service, the medium-term pay reform and payments for contingencies such as the suffering brought about by floods being experienced in some parts of the country.

Madam Chairperson, the Government, through contractual agreements, borrows financial resources from domestic creditors through the issuance of Government paper and external creditors through loan agreement in order to augment domestic tax and non-tax revenues required to implement its programmes and projects. It is in this regard that the Government is committed to the timely settlement of these contractual debt obligations.

Madam Chairperson, a critical requirement in debt management is the need to continually review and adjust debt management practices in line with international best practice. In this regard, beginning this year, the Government will step up efforts to implement the debt management strategy that my ministry has developed. The strategy seeks to provide a clear framework for borrowing, establishing the principal guidance on decision-making with respect to currency composition, maturity, interest rates and other risks of the public debt portfolio.

 The overall objective is to ensure debt is procured at least cost and minimum risk and is maintained at sustainable levels. Additionally, my ministry will develop a debt policy which will make explicit the regulatory framework for managing debt and spell out the guiding principle on how debt will be procured and for what purpose.

Going forward, the Government will continue to maintain its resolve in ensuring that public debt is managed at sustainable levels. This will be achieved through borrowing on concessional terms. However, when need arises, but without compromising on sustainability, the Government will accommodate non-concessional borrowing that will be required for financing the implementation of infrastructure projects in the country such as roads, hydropower plants, dam construction and telecommunications among other projects.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!
Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, I wish to spend a few minutes talking about the external debt, the servicing of which is part of this Vote.

Madam, we have come from a very difficult period. The US$7.2 billion that this country owed the outside world nearly sunk us as a nation. It is for this reason, and following the Heavily Indebted Poor Country (HIPC) campaign and the debt forgiveness that those nations bestowed upon this country such that at one stage, the external debt fell to US$500 million. It is for this reason that in terms of the management of external debt, this country needs to take care. This is on the premise that this country’s debt must not rise to the level at which it was.

Madam Chairperson, US$7.2 is what was around our necks. However, let me accept that any nation must borrow, but the point that should be made is that borrowing must be done in order to grow the economy and must be used on things that add to the economy.

Madam Chairperson, it will be pointless if we borrow and the money we borrow does not go towards building the nation. In this vein, I have often said that, perhaps, the Government must consider ensuring that the money we borrow from other nations is used to implement capital projects. I have always said that the growth of the country is determined by how successful we are at completing capital projects.

The gross domestic product (GDP) is determined by how we successfully complete capital projects. In the main, there are three parameters that we watch for when we are completing capital projects and these are completely on time, within cost and within the timeframe that we set our selves to do. Each capital project that we embark upon, as a nation, has a return on investment provided it was implemented in the manner that I have described. Therefore, in managing this external debt, I would like to urge the Government to do whatever is in its power to make sure the debt does not rise carelessly to the US$7.2 billion that this country owed the external world. I would like to urge this country to ensure that the money we borrow is used to create growth. In that way, we will this country for our children in a manner that will enable them move it forward further.
 I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

 Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: Madam Chairperson, the external debt, up to 1991, was US$7.2 billion. We were forgiven. The debt between that time and now, as was announced on radio this morning by the Ministry of Finance and National Planning, is US$1.1 billion.

Interruptions

Mr Matongo: That is what was said on radio this morning, hon. Minister. The hon. Minister looks confused. I am telling you that that is what your ministry said.

 Mr D. Mwila: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: By extrapolating from the period between 1991 and the period we were forgiven, I believe that this debt could easily escalate and drive us into a debt trap.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: I wish to tell the hon. Minister of Energy and Water Development, who is shaking his head, that I am not saying we could easily rise to the same level of debt. However, at the rate we are going, it is possible that we could rise to that level of debt. Therefore, I would advise the hon. Minister to go for grants rather than borrow money which attracts interest.

 I have no particular problem with the figures in the Yellow Book regarding multilateral, Paris Club and non-Paris Club debts because they are very relative to period.

As regards domestic debt, we need to mitigate to ensure that it is kept heavily under control. It is through domestic debt that the Government owes the Zambian people money in form of pensions and other debt. Zambians can reinvest their money and employ others in order to develop the country, hon. Member for Chavuma. We could get this money from domestic debt.

Therefore, I would like to firmly advise the hon. Minister to pay the retirees as quickly as possible. Pay the outstanding debt to the Public Service Pension Fund (PSPF) so that pensioners can get their money and reinvest it. That way, they will not only look after themselves well, but also assist other Zambians through job creation.

Madam Chairperson, …

Mr Mutati: Finally!

Mr Matongo: I am not very sure whether the hon. Minister of Commerce, Trade and Industry wants me to conclude, but I think I need to debate.

Mr Chairperson, I am pleased about treasury bills and as long as you tie them to 1.8 per cent of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), I will have no quarrel with you. The moment it goes beyond that, then you begin to eat into the money that the business community ought to borrow at a cheaper rate. As a result, you make the money expensive. Therefore, we need to control the situation.

Madam, with those few remarks, I support this vote. However, …

Interruptions

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Matongo: … we should stick to the contingency figure of K50 billion which was K90 billion last year.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, I wish to take advantage of this item on the Floor of the House to thank the former Minister of Finance and National Planning, once called ‘HIPC’, for having presided over the economic affairs of our country, Zambia, at a time when the debt was US$7 billion. He must have attained his international diplomacy acumen from his illustrious career. He was once Permanent Secretary, managing director of two very important banks, one of which was a development bank, and presided over the international monetary affairs of an international organisation as Ambassador for Zambia. He came back to be Minister of Finance and National Planning, having accrued sufficient economic prowess and acumen to manage the affairs of this country.

Laughter

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: He became the darling - Mr Magande - of the international community and, through the HIPC arrangement, was able to secure a reduction of foreign debt for Zambia from $7.2 billion to just over $500 million.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: I thought that as we deal with the foreign debt which is now rising, we should give accolades to that man sitting in the gonakuzingwa bench today.

Laughter

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam.

Hon. UPND Members: Aah, iwe!

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Continue!

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Madam.

Major Chizhyuka: Thank you, Madam Chairperson, for disregarding hecklers.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Having said that, I just want to say that if this …

Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairperson, my point of order is a point of procedure.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Sichilima: Madam Chairperson, I did not wish to interrupt the speaker on the Floor. However, you have guided, many times, that rulings should be followed. Is it in order for the hon. Member of Parliament to praise one person when programmes of this country are carried out collectively by this side of the House?

Hon. UPND Member: Jealousy!

Mr Sichilima: In order to put the record straight, I would like to find out whether the HIPC initiative was started by the person the hon. Member is referring to or during the time of Chiluba when Hon. Dr Katele Kalumba was Minister of Finance and Economic Development? I need the record to be put straight. I need your serious ruling.

The Chairperson: The Chair does not see any infringement of the concept of collective and individual responsibility in this matter.

The hon. Member may continue.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, the level of taxation in your country has a bearing on the extent to which you contract foreign debt. If the Government, like the one on your right, misses an opportunity to earn revenue through taxes such as the windfall tax, then the country will incur foreign debt because it will need to borrow more in order to finance a lot of projects.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: You had an opportunity to listen to a preponderance of wisdom from people who managed Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) …

Mr Kakoma: Hear, hear! Hachipuka!

Major Chizhyuka: Hon. Hachipuka was Director of Finance and used to manage more resources than those of the whole Zambia put together. Hon. Milupi and Hon. Chota were at the helm of managing ZCCM. This kind of knowledge is not available on the right side of the House.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: On the basis of the fact that you are in Government, you decided to reject technical and very important advice. This array of knowledge has come to settle on the Floor of this House for the consumption of those on your right side.

Mr Malwa: On a point of order, Madam.

Interruptions

Mr D. Mwila: Iwe, Malwa!

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, there are things which are extremely important but are not paid attention to. Today, Zambia wants to build a stadium on the Copperbelt …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: … by borrowing money from the Chinese, and yet I explained to this House the other day that a tribe in South Africa called Bafokeng are building an Olympiad because they have secured equity partnership to the tune of 22.6 per cent.

The Chairperson: Order!

The Chair wishes to guide you that you have said that the other day you debated that. Remember the rule of tedious repetition. You made that point at that time. Therefore, can you make a new point in the House?

Major Chizhyuka: I am just trying to ensure this wealth of knowledge dawns on the foreign debt. If you structure your taxation in such a manner that you are able to capture these moneys, you will not need to borrow to the extent you want to borrow. You want to put the future generations into a debt created by this Government due to its failure to listen to people who have the preponderance of knowledge which they have acquired over a period of time. We should support this Bill, but I do hope that we will be careful because it is very easy to get into a cyclic debt trap which, at the end of the day, will have to be born by the unborn children of this country. In view of time and considering that very soon I might have to pass through another door, I want to say that I support this vote.

Thank you, Madam.

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I wish to thank the hon. Members who have contributed to the debate on this vote.

Madam Chairperson, I fully agree with those who have expressed the need for us, as a nation, to be cautious so that we do not fall back into the trap of the heavy debt that Zambia incurred. I say this because when we attained the HIPC Completion Point, I was Secretary to the Treasury, who is the Chief Controlling Officer for the Government in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Therefore, I know what it took for everyone who was concerned to ensure that Zambia was relieved of the debt that it had.

Madam Chairperson, what is key, as a number of people indicated, is that, each time we borrow, we ensure that the money is used very carefully to grow the economy. This matter is also being discussed in the framework of the Constitutional Review Mechanism because the Government recognises its importance. More importantly, the Government is cognisant of the need to grow our economy fast because if the economy had been growing fast at the time, we would have managed to service the debt that we had. However, the economy did not grow because contrary to what those who are alleging that we are not mindful about economic growth are saying, this is precisely what happened that time. People like those on the other side of the House did not understand the importance of investment in the country and that is why the ZCCM that they are talking about collapsed.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I was in the Treasury at that time and every single day, the taxpayers of this country did not receive a single cent from the mines. Instead, the taxpayers had to look for US$2 million everyday to put into the mines. This Government does not want a repetition of that. We want investment in the mines that can grow so that the economy can also grow. That way, we can avoid the debt.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Musokotwane: When those on the other side of the House talk about empowerment, they talk about empowerment for themselves and not with regard to growing the economy which is what this Government wants.

I thank you, Madam Chairperson.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Vote 99/01 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/02 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 99/04 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – Contingency – K50,000,000,000).

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

i. Under 1 Contingency, Programme: 7 contingency, Activity 01 contingency, by the deletion of K50,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K27,500.000,000.

ii. Under 1 Contingency, Programme: 7 contingency, Programme Total, by the deletion of K50,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K27,500.000,000.

iii. Under 1 Contingency, Unit total, by the deletion of K50,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K27,500.000,000.

iv. Under 1 Contingency, Departmental total, by the deletion of K50,000,000,000 and the substitution therefor of K27,500.000,000.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 99/04, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Vote 99/05 ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

VOTE 99 – (Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure – K1,830,133,369,178).

Dr Musokotwane: Madam Chairperson, I beg to move the following amendment:

On page 1645, Head Total, by the deletion of K1,830,133,369,178 and the substitution therefor of K1,807,633,369,178.

Amendment agreed to. Vote amended accordingly.

Vote 99, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Estimates.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

____________

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

ANNOUNCEMENTS BY MR SPEAKER

BREACH OF PARLIAMENTARY PRIVILEGE AND ETIQUETTE AND CONTEMPT OF THE HOUSE BY HON. ELIZABETH CHITIKA MOLOBEKA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAWAMBWA AND  HON. JOSEPHINE C. MUMBI PHIRI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUNALI

Mr Speaker: Before I proceed with the business on the Order Paper, …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

… I have two rulings to make. I order Mrs Elizabeth Chitika Molobeka, Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Parliamentary Constituency, and Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, to stand behind the Bar of the House. 

Hon. Members: Alangizi.

Mr Speaker: I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s mace and go and stand behind the hon. Members.

Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka and Mrs Phiri went to stand behind the bar.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! The House may wish to know that, on Monday, 16th February, 2009, my Office and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly, received letters of complaint from Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Parliamentary Constituency, and Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, against each other.

The letters of complaint from the two hon. Members read as follows:

1. Letter from Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP
 
“Dear Madam

COMPLAINT AGAINST HON. MUMBI PHIRI

Madam, I write to complain about the unbecoming behaviour of Hon. Mumbi Phiri, towards me.  On Friday, the 13th of February, 2009, she called me a bitch, among other insults, in front of the security personnel and the press for no apparent reasons.

The facts of the matter are as follows:

On Friday, 13th February, 2009, I was seated in the Chamber listening to questions and answers by the hon. Members to the hon. Minister of Communications and Transport after she gave a Ministerial Statement, when I saw Hon. Mumbi Phiri stop behind where I sit and say: ‘Bana Sinyangwe, it is not you I am insulting, but this one,’ (pointing at me) and went on to say, ‘it is this woman I have a problem with.’  I turned and said to her, ‘What is the problem? Naupena?’

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Meaning have you gone mad? She continued with her insults and left the Chamber.
After five minutes or so, Dr Chishya, MP for Pambashe came to where I sit and asked me to go outside the Chamber with him.  In the western lobby he tried to inquire what the problem was for Hon. Mumbi to insult me like that immediately she saw my name on the note that came from Hon. Imenda.  Dr Chishya initially thought that I had earlier met and differed with Hon, Mumbi that morning for her to react in such a manner.  I assured Dr Chishya that I had not met Hon. Mumbi and that I have never spoken to Hon, Mumbi for the last one year since we decided to participate in the NCC.

We were about to enter the Chamber when I saw Hon. Mumbi entering the lobby.  I then decided to find out what the problem was.  She never responded to my question, but instead went into a frenzy and insulted me on top of her voice and called me a bitch.  ‘You are a bitch,’ she said.  At this point, I could not stand this kind of insult and provocation from this young hon. Member.  I charged at her and held her by the neck. 

Laughter

Mr Speaker: But before I could do anything, Hon. Mwango, MP for Kanchibiya came quickly and stood in between us and the security officers also moved in to take me away. 

In the process of this fracas, she continued insulting me and pulled and tore my dress by the shoulder towards the back.

Madam, I write to vehemently complain to your office:

(a) to find out what I did to attract such verbal attacks in the Chamber;

(b) why she went on rampage to cheat that I had beaten and bitten her when this was not the case.  I saw this on television later that evening;

(c) why she decided to mislead the nation through both the electronic and print media that I provoked her by making offensive remarks after she asked a question on Zambian Airways.  This I saw in the Post as per the attached copies;

(d) that she insulted me by calling me a bitch in front of people in the lobby.  Madam, the word bitch is such a derogatory, demeaning and hurtful remark to be used on any person;

(e) to explain to me in clear terms what she means by saying she knows my HIV status, therefore, she could not sleep with her husband.  This she said to the newspapers, television and radio;

Madam, I have been abused before by her.  But this time, Hon Mumbi went very far by calling me a bitch.  This has affected me as an individual, affected my husband who thinks that he married a respectful and faithful wife, affected my children and family who hold me in high esteem and indeed my constituency and the entire nation to whom my reputation and character as a leader is now questionable.  I believe this kind of behaviour by Hon Mumbi undermines Parliamentary discipline and etiquette and if not checked may lead to much more serious consequences.

I have the following as my witnesses:

(i) Hon Mwansa, MP;

(ii) Hon Nyirenda, MP;

(iii) Hon Dr Chishya, MP;

(iv) Hon Chimbaka, MP;

(v) Hon Chella, MP; and

(vi) Hon Sinyangwe, MP.

Yours faithfully,

Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP
Kawambwa Constituency.”

2. Letter from Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP
 
“Mr Speaker

RE: COMPLAINT AGAINST MRS ELIZABETH CHITIKA-MOLOBEKA, MP – KAWAMBWA CONSTITUENCY

I am hereby officially launching a complaint against Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Constituency over her outrageous attack on me on Friday, 13th February, 2009 in the lobby just outside the Chamber within the National Assembly building.

It was during my follow up question to the hon Minister of Power, Transport, and Communications when I could hear Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, uttering abusive and despising words to me while I was delivering a question through you, Mr Speaker.  Indeed I looked back in her direction and continued with my question.  At the end of my question, I sat down.  Later on I stood up to leave the House to go to the Ministry of Youth and Sport.  As I passed by, I whispered to Mrs Faustina Sinyangwe, MP, and asked her why her friend hates me so much.  At this point Mrs Chitika-Molobeka, MP, insulted me again and said, ‘We kabwa we’ meaning you small dog.  I never answered back I continued going out of the Chamber.  All her insults were being made in the presence of other Members of Parliament around her.  Before I went out of the lobby Mr Mukanga, MP, and Mr D Mwango, MP, stopped me and told me to ignore her insults and asked me to go home and cool down.  I proceeded going out when suddenly Mrs Chitika-Molobeka, MP, came charging at me and instantly hit me in the presence of Mr Mwango, MP, and Parliament security officers.  I removed my high healed shoes for ease of mobility …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … and in the process my handbag fell down.  She then tangled with me and scratched me and bit me with her teeth while trying to free myself.  She attempted to strangle me, but I was able to free myself.  With the help of the National Assembly police and Mr Mwango, MP, she was separated from me.  In the process, she also attacked Mr Mwango, MP, who sustained some injuries.  I went for medical treatment and later reported the matter to police.

Mr Speaker, I am ashamed that Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka forcefully dragged me in such embarrassing matter, a thing I never thought of.  In my life as an adult, I have never fought with anyone.

Sir, I am asking your wise office to exercise full justice in this matter.  Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, has even been boasting on the media that her aim was to strangle my neck.  Why does she hate me so much?  I have never quarrelled with her and I have no hatred against her.  It seems Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka has made it a habit to fight in Parliament, as last time she fought with the then Nchanga Member of Parliament, Mr Charles Chimumbwa.  I will be grateful if this matter receives your attention.

I have the honour to be,
Sir, your obedient servant,

Josephine Mumbi Phiri, (Mrs), MP
Munali Constituency.”

In line with parliamentary practice and procedure and, in accordance with the principles of natural justice, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly availed the two hon. Members with the letters of complaint against each other.  The Office of the Clerk also wrote to the witnesses mentioned in the hon. Members’ letters of complaint asking for their written submissions on the matter.  The following were the submissions received from the witnesses.

Witnesses for Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP

1. Response from Mrs F. B. Sinyangwe, MP

“Dear Madam,

COMPLAINTS BY THE HON MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUNALI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS JOSEPHINE C MUMBI PHIRI, MP, AND HON MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAWAMBWA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS ELIZABETH CHITIKA-MOLOBEKA, MP, AGAINST EACH OTHER

I refer to the subject above.  I wish to confirm that I was in the House on the 13th of February, 2009.

I recall that when the Speaker refused Hon. Mumbi Phiri’s question to be answered she visibly looked upset and began talking though I was unable to hear what she was saying and neither could I hear what the question was.

Afterwards, on her way out Hon. Mumbi Phiri stopped where I was sitting next to Hon Chitika–Molobeka and addressed me saying, ‘Bana Sinyangwe it is not you I am insulting, but this woman,’ pointing at Hon. Chitika–Molobeka and said, ‘I have a problem with this woman.’  In replay Hon. Chitika–Molobeka said to her, ‘What is the problem bushe naupena?’ Hon. Mumbi Phiri then walked out of the Chamber.  I have no idea of what followed afterwards since I had remained in the Chamber.

Yours faithfully,

Hon Faustina B Sinyangwe, MP
Matero Constituency.”

2. Response from Mr A. Nyirenda, MP

“Dear Madam

RE: COMPLAINT RAISED BY THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAWAMBWA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS ELIZABETH CHITIKA-MOLOBEKA, MP, AGAINST THE HON MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUNALI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS JOSEPHINE C. MUMBI PHIRI, MP

Reference is made to the above caption dated 2nd  March, 2009 in respect of the Hon. Member of Parliament of Kawambwa Elizabeth Chitika–Molobeka, MP.

On the said date, I received a note written by the Chairman of the Expanded Committee of the Estimates informing the Members of the meeting.

When I read through it, I passed to Hon. Member of Parliament of Munali to pass it to either Hon. Mwansa Ernest or Hon R. Muntanga who were also Members of the Expanded Committee.  Hon. Member of Parliament of Munali upon receiving the note and read the name of Hon. Member of Parliament Elizabeth Chitika–Molobeka, she became furious about it and threw the letter back to me and she even castigated at me, saying I do not want to see such stupid notes and insulted the Hon. Member of Parliament Elizabeth Chitika.  She thought it was written by her.

I finally, picked the note and handed it to Hon. Ernest Mwansa. Soon after that I saw Hon Member of Parliament for Munali Mrs Mumbi Phiri walking out of the Chamber.

This was the source of the whole saga. What happened thereafter I never saw it, but just heard.

Thank you, Madam.

Yours faithfully,

A. Nyirenda, MP
Kamfinsa Constituency.”

3. Response from Dr. B. E. Chishya, MP

“Dear Madam

RE: COMPLAINT RAISED BY THE HON MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAWAMBWA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS ELIZABETH CHITIKA–MOLOBEKA, MP, AGAINST THE HON MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUNALI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS JOSEPHINE C. MUMBI PHIRI, MP

Receipt of your letter dated 2nd March, 2009 in connection with the above subject is hereby acknowledged.  The following is my response.

(a) Yes, I did witness the incident pertaining to the confrontation that occurred between the Hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Josephine Mumbi Phiri, MP, and the Hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Central Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Elizabeth Chitika–Molobeka, MP, on the morning of Friday, 13th February, 2009.

(b) On the material day during the questions and oral answers session, I turned my head for a consultative talk with the Hon. Member of Parliament for Kankoyo Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Percy Chanda, MP, whose seat is directly behind me, when I saw the Hon Member of Parliament for Kamfinsa Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Nyirenda, MP, pass on a folded piece of paper to the Hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Mumbi Phiri, MP.

 The passing on of notes among Members in the Chamber is a usual thing and, therefore, it did not attract my close attention.

 Seconds later, I heard Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, whose seat is second to mine on my right, utter angrily some words in Bemba saying, ‘Aya e makalata ine nshifwaya’ meaning these are the letters I do not get pleased with. And immediately I saw her, Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, throwing the note on to the floor behind her, just on the legs of Hon. Nyirenda, MP.

Avoiding to be noticed by the Speaker because of the noise that ensued coming from her, Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, I pulled myself back into my seat quietly.  A few seconds later, I saw Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, leave her seat still angrily uttering some words I could not hear properly because of the distance since she was heading for the door.

A moment later Hon. Member of Parliament for Chifunabuli Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Ernest Mwansa, MP, sitting next to me on my right showed me the note in question and said to me the main problem of the incident that we had just witnessed then was that the name of Hon. Chitika–Molobeka, was on top of the note that had been passed to Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP.  When Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, read Hon. Chitika–Molobeka’s name, she got irritated and threw it.

The note was intended for Hon. Mwansa, MP, and Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, was being asked to pass it on to Hon. Mwansa, MP.

Immediately, Hon. Mwansa, MP, had finished talking to me I left my seat and asked Hon Chitika–Molobeka, MP, to follow me outside into the northern lobby.  She first hesitated as Hon. Member of Parliament for Matero Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Faustina Sinyangwe, MP, persuaded her not to follow me.  I insisted and thereafter she followed me outside.

After consultations for some minutes, we decided to go back to our seats in the Chamber.

As we were going back into the Chamber, just as I opened the door, since I was in front of Hon. Chitika–Molobeka, MP, I saw Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, entering the western lobby from the southern lobby to the Hon. Mr Speaker’s reception desk.  I heard her shout angrily again calling Hon. Chitika–Molobeka, MP, as a ‘bitch’ who has caused her (Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP) not to sleep with her husband and that she (Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP) knew Hon. Chitika–Molobeka’s HIV status.

As I was entering the Chamber, I told Hon. Chitika–Molobeka, MP, to go to her seat.  As I approached my seat I heard a lot of noise coming from the western lobby I turned around and I did not see Hon. Chitika–Molobeka, MP, on her seat and, hence, I rushed outside into the lobby. I saw Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, virtually lifted by the security officers and she was kicking her legs in the air trying to free herself.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I saw Hon. Chitika-Molobeka, MP, firmly held in the hand of a security officer. I approached the security officer, got hold of Hon. Chitika-Molobeka, MP, by the hand and requested the security officer to let her loose. Immediately the security officer obliged and I asked Hon. Sinyangwe, MP, who had approached us to bring Hon. Chitika-Molobeka’s handbag so that I could take her home to change her dress that had been torn during the scuffle.

I took Hon. Chitika-Molobeka home. She changed her clothes and came back and she went into a Committee Meeting on Estimates of Expenditure.

Madam, this ends my response.  Should there be any extra information that your office may require or any clarification on my response, I will whole-heartedly oblige.

Yours faithfully,

Dr Bernard Elijah Chishya, MP
Pambashe Parliamentary Constituency.”

4. Response from Mr B. E. Chimbaka, MP

“Dear Madam,

COMPLAINT RAISED BY THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAWAMBWA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS ELIZABETH CHITIKA-MOLOBEKA, MP AGAINST THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUNALI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, MRS JOSEPHINE C. MUMBI PHIRI, MP

I honestly admit having seen and heard the Hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Josephine Mumbi Phiri, MP when she stood by my sitting position as she told Matero Member of Parliament, Mrs Faustina Sinyangwe, MP, that she should not mind whatever she said because she had no problem with her, but with this woman, pointing at Hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Elizabeth Chitika Molobeka, MP, and she walked away into the western lobby.

After sometime I heard noise in the western lobby and I immediately walked out and saw hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Constituency charging towards the northern reception where Hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Parliamentary Constituency, Mrs Elizabeth Chitika, MP, was being taken to calm down by the security men and Hon. Member of Parliament for Kanchibiya Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Mwango, MP.

There and then I held the hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Parliamentary Constituency by her hand, allowing her to pick up her shoes and hand bag and pleaded with her as I, together with Hon. Member of Parliament for Chipangali, Hon. Vincent Mwale, MP, and Hon. Member for Kanchibiya Constituency, Hon. Mwango, MP, escorted her downstairs to her car park.  I advised Hon. Mwango and Hon. Vincent Mwale to escort her to her home.  I suspected she had intentions of behaving in the manner she did.

Yours faithfully,

Hon. Besa Edwin Chimbaka, MP
Bahati Constituency.”

5. Response from Mr B. Chella, MP

“Dear Madam

RE: COMPLAINT RAISED BY THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR KAWAMBWA, MRS ELIZABETH CHITIKA-MOLOBEKA, MP, AGAINST THE HON. MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR MUNALI, MRS JOSEPHINE C. MUMBI PHIRI, MP

I am in receipt of your letter dated 2nd March 2009 in which you have asked me to explain on what I know over the complaint raised by Hon. Member of Parliament for Kawambwa Constituency, Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, against Hon. Member of Parliament for Munali Constituency, Mrs Josephine C. Mumbi Phiri, MP.

I do remember on Friday, 13th  February, 2009 while seated in the Chamber next to Hon. Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, I heard the voice behind me saying Bana Sinyangwe it is not you I am insulting, but this one.  I looked behind and saw Hon. Mrs Josephine Mumbi Phiri, MP, pointing at Hon. Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP saying, ‘It is this woman I have a problem with.’

That is all I know about that incident.

Yours faithfully,

Barnabas Chella, MP
Wusakile Constituency.”

Witnesses for Mrs J.C. Mumbi Phiri, MP

1. Response from Mrs F. B. Sinyangwe, MP

The House may wish to note that the response from Mrs F Sinyangwe, MP, is as indicated under the witnesses for Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP.

2. Response from Mr Y. Mukanga, MP

“Dear Madam,

RE: WITNESS OF THE PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION BETWEEN HON. MUMBI AND HON. MOLOBEKA ON 13TH  FEBRUARY 2009

“In response to your letter dated 2nd March, 2009, on the above issue, I would like to state that on the stated material day when the hon. Minister of Transport and Communications was answering questions after her Ministerial Statement on ZAMTEL, I decided to go out of the Chamber to carry out some transactions at the Post Office, but before I would leave my seat I saw behind me Hon. Mumbi Phiri almost crying. I decided to cool her down and asked her to go out because at that time I did not know what transpired.  Afterwards I went out and Hon. Mumbi also came out.  At this point, I would tell that she was cross and very unhappy with what happened.

I asked her what transpired, then she briefed me that it was Hon. Chitika Elizabeth who had passed some derogative remarks at her when she was asking the questions.  She stated that this was Hon. Elizabeth Chitika’s usual approach and had even asked the Clerk of the National Assembly at one time to intervene.  I went out of the western lobby and was joined by Hon. D. Mwango by the foot of the staircase that leads to the Hon. Mr Speaker’s gallery on the western side. The three of us, Hon. Mumbi Phiri, Hon. D. Mwango and myself took a walk along the corridor along the Chief Whip’s office to the corridor along the Transcribers and through to the Speaker’s reception.  During this walk, my intention was to calm her down and try to pacify the situation and ask her to forgive the other.

When we reached the Speaker’s reception, Hon. Mumbi Phiri had calmed down and was ready to go to the Ministry of Sport with Hon. D. Mwango.

We parted company and I went to the Post Office.  When the fight ensued, I was not there. I came to hear of it like any other person.

Yours faithfully,

Yamfwa Mukanga, MP
Kantanshi Constituency.”

3. Response from Mr D. Mwango, MP

“Dear Madam,

WITNESS OF THE PHYSICAL CONFRONTATION BETWEEN HON. MUMBI, MP AND HON. MOLOBEKA, MP, ON 13TH  FEBRUARY 2009.

On the material day, I walked out of the Chamber at about 10:00 hours to follow Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, who had walked out after Hon. Mukanga Yamfwa, MP, walked out because  I and Hon. Mumbi, MP, had earlier arranged that we go to the Ministry of Sport and Child Development.  I joined the two Honourable Members at the foot of the western stair case leading to the Speaker’s Gallery.

Apparently, I did not know what the two Members of Parliament were discussing until I learnt that Hon. Yamfwa, MP, was trying to calm down Hon. Mumbi Phiri, MP, who looked upset.  As the two hon. Members were talking, we walked in the western corridors until we came to the Speaker’s reception where Hon. Yamfwa, MP, parted with us so that we could continue with our program. 

As soon as we got into the western lobby, I saw Hon. Chitika, MP, coming from our opposite direction.  I just saw the two ladies exchanging words from afar before we got closer.  As we walked towards where Hon. Chitika, MP, was coming from, the two Members started hurling insults at each other and before I realised, they were too close to each other and started holding each other and a fight ensued.  I went in between them trying to restrain them and eventually some security officers, a journalist and some Members of Parliament came out of the Chamber to help stop the fight.  We separated the two and took them to different directions. At the car park, Hon. V. Mwale, MP, decided to drive Hon. Phiri, MP, home.

Yours faithfully,

Hon. D. Mwango, MP
Kanchibiya Constituency.”

Reports from Parliamentary Security Officers

The Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly also received the following reports from the parliamentary security officers who were present at the time and scene of the incident: 

Report by Mr Kenneth Hamalambo
 
“The Chief Parliamentary Security Officer,

Sir, I wish to report on the fight between Hon. Elizabeth Chitika and Hon. Mumbi Phiri at Parliament in the left lobby on Friday, 13th February, 2009 at 1020 hours.

I was on duty on Friday, 13th February, 2009 together with Security Officer Mutinta Robertson at about 1020 hours.  The two Hon. Members entered the left lobby from opposite directions.  Hon. Mumbi Phiri entered through the western door while Hon. Chitika entered through the eastern door.  The two Hon. Members met in the left lobby and Hon Chitika said to the colleague in Bemba ‘Mumbi, leka nkwebe’. What followed was a question. “Mumbi, why do you always shut me off whenever I am talking?” Then Hon. Chitika grabbed and tightly pulled the colleague by the collar prompting the fight. Both exchanged punches and called each other ‘bitch’.  Officer Mutinta rushed to inform the supervisors and I struggled to separate the two Hon. Members with the help of Hon. Mwango Davis and a journalist from The Post Newspaper who was passing through the left lobby. His name is Mr Chanda Ernest.  After separating the two, I took Hon. Mumbi Phiri outside the lobby through the western door while Hon. Chitika Elizabeth went out through the eastern door with other Hon. Members who came out of the Chamber to see what was happening. Within a short period of time, I returned to the lobby with Hon. Mumbi Phiri to collect her pair of shoes and a handbag which she dropped during the fight.  I remained in the lobby while the honourable left the lobby through the eastern door.

Sir, that is what I saw on that day to the best of my knowledge.

Kenneth Hamalambo
Security Officer”

Report by Mr Robertson Mutinta

“The Chief Parliamentary Security Officer

It was on Friday, 13th February, 2009, that I, security officer Robertson Mutinta, security officer Kenneth Hamalambo and security officer Chola Lewis Mununga were detailed in the left lobby during the sitting of the House when two PF Members of Parliament namely, Hon. Elizabeth M. Chitika and Hon. Mumbi Phiri fought in the lobby.

At about 1020 hours, Hon. Chitika Molobeka entered the lobby using the northern entrance, while Hon. Mumbi Phiri, who was accompanied with Hon. Mwango, entered the same lobby (left) using the opposite door.  As they were approaching each other, Hon. Elizabeth Chitika shouted at Hon. Mumbi Phiri saying ‘iwe Mumbi, leka lelo nkwebe. Why do you always shut me up whenever I am debating?’  Then Hon. Mumbi Phiri responded by saying, ‘Why does this woman hate me so much?’

As soon as they approached each other Hon. Chitika E. Molobeka grabbed Hon. Mumbi Phiri by the neck which actually prompted Hon. Mumbi Phiri to react by throwing a punch at the other which resulted into a fight and exchange of bitter words like ‘you bitch’ by Hon. Mumbi Phiri.

When the fight began, I, security officer, Robertson Mutinta, physically rushed to the Chamber door to give signals to the supervisors and other officers for reinforcement.  At the same time, security officer Kenneth Hamalambo and Mr Ernest Chanda, a Post Newspaper journalist, were busy trying to separate the fighting PF Members of Parliament.

Fortunately enough, officer Kenneth Hamalambo managed to grab and convince Hon. Mumbi Phiri to stop the fight and on the other hand Mr Ernest Chanda (journalist) also managed to convince Hon. Elizabeth Chitika and that is how the fight ended.

Finally, I, security officer Robertson Mutinta, and security officer Kenneth Hamalambo gave Hon. Mumbi Phiri her red hand bag and her shoes.

Robertson Mutinta”

The House may further wish to know that the Office of the Clerk also wrote to a Dr Kalo Ka Nanga, Medical Officer at the Casualty Department of the University Teaching Hospital who, following the incident, had examined Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, to confirm whether his findings, upon examining her, included teeth bites.  In his response, Dr Kalo Ka Nanga confirmed that Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, had scratch marks on the right forehand which were not teeth bites.

Furthermore, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly also wrote to the directors of programmes of the Zambia National Broadcasting Corporation (ZNBC) and MUVI Television, requesting for copies of video recordings in which their respective television stations covered stories on the physical confrontation involving the two hon. Members.  ZNBC provided the Office of the Clerk with a copy of the requested video recording.  No copy of the video recording was received from MUVI Television.

Hon. Members, the conduct of the two hon. Members of Parliament raises the following issues:

(a) hon. Members fighting within the precincts of Parliament;

(b) hon. Members using abusive language against each other;

(c) hon. Members insulting each other;

(d) hon. Members taking issues that happened within Parliamentary precincts to the media without the permission of the Hon. Mr Speaker;

(e) an hon. Member attempting to institute court proceedings without the authority of the Hon. Mr Speaker; and

(f) libel on an hon. Member by another hon. Member.

Hon. Members, these issues culminate into the following breaches:

(a) breach of privilege and contempt of the House; and

(b) breach of parliamentary etiquette.

Hon. Members, the following are the authorities on these breaches.

(a) M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! I know you have heard these names before …

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … and you shall continue to hear them.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: … Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fifth Edition, on page 285, state that:

“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to obstruct or molest a Member while in the execution of his duties, that is while he is attending the House or when he is coming to or going from the House. Thus, insults offered to hon. Members on their way to or from the House have always been deemed high breaches of privilege …

In the following instances Members and others have been punished for molesting Members:

(i) assaulting Members within the precincts of the House;

(ii) using insulting or abusing language against Members within the precincts of the House;

(iii) challenging Members to a fight on account of their behavior in the House or any Committee thereof.”

(b) Erskine May, in his book entitled Parliamentary Practice, 22nd Edition, Pages 121-122, states that:

“Members and others have been punished for such molestation occurring within the precincts of the House, whether by assault or insulting or abusive language, or outside the precincts.”

(c) Section 23(a) and (d) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, provides that:

“23. Any person shall be guilty of an offence who:
(a) assaults, obstructs or insults any member or officer going to or from the precincts of the Assembly Chamber; or

(b) sends to a Member any threatening letter, or challenges any Member to a fight, on account of his conduct as such Member.”

(d) Further, Section 19(e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, provides that:

“Any person shall be guilty of an offence who causes an obstruction or disturbance within the precincts of the Assembly Chamber or during a sitting of the Assembly or of a Committee thereof.”

(e) M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fifth Edition, on page 306, state that:

“In order to maintain the highest traditions in parliamentary life, Members of Parliament are expected to observe a certain standard of conduct, both inside the House [and] outside it.  Their behaviour should be such as to enhance the dignity of Parliament and its Members in general.”

The same authors, on page 311, of the same book, further state that:
“... in keeping with parliamentary conventions and etiquette, Members are forbidden to indulge during debate in any frivolity or in jokes with a barb or sarcasm in them.”

(f) M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book entitled, Practice and Procedure of Parliament, Fifth Edition, on page 231, state that:

“Each House has the power to punish its Members for disorderly conduct and other contempts committed in the House while it is sitting.  This power is vested in the House by virtue of its right to exclosure cognizance of matters arising within the House and to regulate its own internal concerns ...

The Speaker who preserves order in the House, has all the powers necessary for the purpose of enforcing his decisions.  The disciplinary powers of the Speaker and the House are partly embodied in the rules which provide for the withdrawal or suspension of any Member whose conduct is grossly disorderly or who disregards the authority of the Chair or abuses the rules of the House by persistently and willfully obstructing its business.”

Further, on page 295, the authors state that:

“The question whether a matter complained of is actually a breach of privilege or contempt of the House is entirely for the House to decide, as the House alone is the master of its privileges.”

(g) M. N. Kaul and S. L. Shakdher, in their book, Practice and Procedure of Parliament, on pages 278 to 279, state that:

“It is a breach of privilege and contempt of the House to make speeches, or to print or publish any libels, reflecting on the character or proceedings of the House or its Committees, or any Member of the House for or relating to his character or conduct as a Member of Parliament. The House may punish not only contempts arising out of facts which the ordinary courts will take cognisance of, but those of which they cannot.  Thus, a libel on a Member of Parliament may amount to a breach of privilege without being a libel under the civil or criminal law.”

Hon Members, the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services met to consider the allegations raised by the two hon. Members against each other.

Furthermore, in addition to their written submissions, the complainants were accorded the opportunity to appear before the Committee to exculpate themselves from the allegations against them.

After considering the submissions from all the witnesses and all mitigating factors, the Committee established that both hon. Members were guilty of the following offences:

(a) fighting within the precincts of Parliament;

(b) use of abusive language against each other;

(c) insulting each other;

(d) making speeches or statements to the media on a matter that occurred within the precincts of Parliament without the authority of the hon. Mr Speaker.
In addition, the Committee found Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, guilty of the following breaches:

(a) libel against Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, for stating that Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, should undertake an HIV test, because Mrs J. C. Mumbi, MP, had knowledge of the status of the hon. Member; and

(b) attempting to institute court proceedings against Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, on an event which occurred within the precincts of Parliament without the authority of the hon. Mr Speaker.

The Committee then resolved that the two hon. Members were guilty of breaching parliamentary privilege and etiquette, and were in contempt of the House and, therefore, should be suspended from the service of the House, in accordance with the provisions of Section 28 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, as follows:

(a) Mrs J. C. Mumbi Phiri, MP, should be suspended from the service of the House for ninety (90) days; and

(b) Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, should be suspended from the service of the House for thirty (30) days.

Section 28(1) of Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia provides that:

“(1)   Where any hon. Member commits any contempt of the Assembly, whether specified in section nineteen or otherwise, the Assembly may, by resolution, either direct the Speaker to reprimand such member or suspend him from the service of the Assembly for such period as it may determine ...

Provided that such period shall not extend beyond the last day of meeting next following that in which the resolution is passed, or of the session in which the resolution is passed, whichever shall first occur.”

Therefore, in accordance with Section 28(1) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, and Standing Order No. 151(2) which requires a resolution of the House on a matter of this nature, I now put the question.

Question that the House accordingly suspends Mrs J. Mumbi Phiri, MP, for a period of ninety days and Mrs E. Chitika Molobeka, MP, for a period of thirty days as recommended by the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services put and agreed to.

I now turn to address both of you Mrs Elizabeth Chitika-Molobeka, MP, and Mrs Mumbi J. C. Phiri, MP.

I have to inform you that the House is extremely displeased with your shameful, disgraceful and demeaning conduct.

Time and again, I have guided that the House has laid down procedures and rules to be followed in seeking redress in case of a grievance.

The House certainly does not expect its hon. Members to engage in demeaning behaviour as you did.  By your disgraceful conduct, you brought public ridicule and disrespect upon this House.

The respect accorded to this House has been built over the years and it is, therefore, irresponsible to bring down the dignity of this House in this manner.  This House will not tolerate this gross indiscipline and misconduct.

In accordance with the decision of this House, you are both suspended from the services of the National Assembly accordingly.  You should know that, during the period of suspension, and, in accordance with Section 28(2) of the Powers and Privileges Act, Cap. 12 of the Laws of Zambia, you will not receive a salary or allowance and you will not participate in the business and activities of the Assembly and its Committees, including those in which, if any, you participate in your capacity as an hon. Member of the National Assembly.

I now order both of you to leave the Chamber through the main door.

I thank you.

Interruptions

Business was suspended from 0020 hours until 0035 hours.

 [MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

SUSPENSION OF THE HON. MEMBER FOR NAMWALA (MAJOR ROBBY M. CHIZHYUKA)

Mr Speaker: Hon. Members, the second ruling is as follows. I order you, hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency, Major Robby M. Chizhyuka, MP, to stand behind the Bar of the House. I also instruct the Sergeant-At-Arms to take the Speaker’s mace and go and stand behind the hon. Member.

Major Chizhyuka, MP, was escorted to the Bar by the Sergeant-At-Arms.

Mr Speaker: The House may wish to know that on Wednesday, 18th February, 2009, the Hon. Mr Speaker received a letter of complaint from the Government Chief Whip, Hon. Vernon J. Mwaanga, MP, against the Hon Member of Parliament for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency, Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP. 

In his letter, Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, MP, alleged that, during the sitting of the House on Wednesday, 11th February, 2009, after the Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Hon. Catherine Namugala, MP, had given a Ministerial Statement on the situation concerning the settlers in Sichifulo Game Management Area (GMA) and during the time for questions on points of clarification, the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency, Major Robbie M. Chizhyuka, MP, conducted himself in an extremely disorderly manner by making loud interjections and when he was ordered to leave the House for 10 minutes to enable him cool down, he continued with loud interjections and shouting as he defiantly walked out of the Chamber, contrary to parliamentary etiquette.

Hon. Vernon J. Mwaanga’s letter of complaint read as follows:

“Dear Madam

COMPLAINT AGAINST MAJOR R. CHIZHYUKA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR NAMWALA PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY ON HIS BEHAVIOUR IN THE HOUSE ON WEDNESDAY, 11TH FEBRUARY 2009

Reference is made to the above captioned matter.

Madam Deputy Speaker, you will recall that, on Wednesday, 11th February, 2009, you granted permission to the Minister for Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Hon. Catherine Namugala, MP, to give a Ministerial Statement on the situation concerning the settlers in the Sichifulo Game Management Area.  The House was later given an opportunity to ask questions on points of clarification on the Ministerial Statement.

During the period of questions on points of clarification arising from the hon. Minister’s statement, you will recall, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the hon. Member of Parliament for Namwala Parliamentary Constituency, Major R. Chizhyuka, MP, kept interjecting and making unwarranted running commentaries from his seat to the extent that you had to direct him to leave the House for ten minutes to enable him to cool down.  Surprisingly, and, in total defiance of the order of the Chair and parliamentary etiquette, Major Chizhyuka, MP, kept shouting while looking at the Chair even as he walked out of the Chamber.  Madam Deputy Speaker, this unbecoming behaviour on the part of the hon. Member was most unfortunate and highly regrettable.
 
Madam, the Chair has time and again guided hon. Members to debate in a manner befitting the dignity and decorum of the House.  You may also recall, Madam Deputy Speaker, that, from time to time, the Chair has reminded the House to observe the rules and etiquette in their debate and conduct in the House. 
 In addition, the office of the Government Chief Whip has issued circulars to hon. Members on this matter each session.  It is, therefore, unfortunate that an hon. Member of Parliament should conduct himself in such a grossly disorderly manner.  Madam, it is a procedural fact that hon. Members are expected to debate in a sober and dignified manner even when issues are perceived to be sensitive and no matter how strong their views may be.

Madam Deputy Speaker, if behaviour such as the one exhibited by Major Chizhyuka, MP, on the material day is allowed to go unchecked, the Zambian Parliament risks losing the dignity and respect that it has gained over the years.  You will agree, Madam, that the House has the responsibility to protect its dignity and to rid itself of any form of conduct which is not befitting the House and its hon. Members.

It is in view of the foregoing, Madam Deputy Speaker, that I officially lodge a complaint against Major R Chizhyuka, MP, for his disorderly and unparliamentary conduct in the House on 11th February, 2009.  As national leaders, our behaviour and conduct both in and outside the House ought to be exemplary at all times and under all circumstances because society is looking up to us for leadership.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I enclose herewith a copy of the verbatim record of what transpired in the House on the material day for easy reference.

Yours faithfully

Vernon J. Mwaanga, GOEZ, MP
CHIEF WHIP”.

The Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services met to consider the matter. Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP, appeared before the Committee to make his verbal submission on the allegation leveled against him. The Committee also received an oral submission from the complainant, Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, MP.

After considering the written and verbal submissions from the two parties, the Committee made the following observations and findings on the matter:

(a) That Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP, made a number of interjections in his seat, and continued making interjections even when he was leaving the Chamber after being ordered to go outside and cool down for ten minutes.

(b) That his submissions on the character of Hon. V. J. Mwaanga, MP, were irrelevant to the issues raised against him.

From the following observations, and taking into account the submissions of both parties, the Committee established the following:

(a) That Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP, breached Parliamentary etiquette and rules of debate provided in the National Assembly Members’ Handbook, 2006 Edition.

(b) Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP, was disorderly in his conduct thereby showing disrespect to the Chair because he continued heckling even after the Hon. Madam Deputy Speaker had ordered him to go out of the Chamber and cool down for ten minutes. This constituted contempt of the House according to the provisions of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

In light of what I have stated, the Committee found Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP, guilty of:

(a) breach of parliamentary etiquette and rules of debate; and

(b) guilty of disorderly conduct and showing disrespect to the Chair.

Hon. Members, on breach of parliamentary etiquette and rules of debate, Chapter 5 of the National Assembly Handbook, 2006 Edition, paragraphs 5, 6, 7, 23 and 37 state as follows:
“5. Members should not interrupt any member while speaking by disorderly expression or noises or in any disorderly manner.

6. Members should maintain silence when not speaking in the House.

7. Members should not obstruct proceedings, or interrupt and should avoid making running commentaries when another Member is speaking.

23. Members should not talk amongst themselves but, if indispensably necessary, they may do so in very low voices, so as not to disturb the proceedings. Conversations by members, though not very audible at a distance, considerably disturb the Chair due to special sound arrangements.

37. The Speaker may direct any Member whose conduct is, in the Speaker’s opinion, grossly disorderly, to withdraw immediately from the House, and any member so ordered to withdraw should do so forthwith and should absent herself/himself during the remainder of the day’s sitting.”

Furthermore, Erskine May, in his book on Parliamentary Practice, 20th Edition, on page 446, provides that:

“A member who abuses the rules of the House by persistently and willfully obstructing the business of the House, that is to say, who, without actually trespassing any of the rules of debate, uses his right of speech for the purpose of obstructing the business of the House by misusing the forms of expression in the House, is technically not guilty of disorderly conduct. It would seem, therefore, that a member so obstructing the business of the House cannot be required under Standing Order 24 to withdraw from the House for the remainder of the Sitting. He may be, however, be guilty of contempt of the House, and may be named. Comparatively little use has been made of this power by the Chair.”

In the same book, on Page 391, Erskine May states that:

“All Members should maintain silence, or should converse only in undertones. Whenever the conversation is so loud as to make it difficult to hear the debate, the occupant of the chair calls the House to order. If any man shall whisper or stir out of his place to the disturbance of the house at any message or business of importance, Mr Speaker is ordered to present his name to the House, for the House to proceed against him as they shall think fit.

Members must not disturb a Member who is speaking by hissing, chanting, clapping, booing exclamations or other interruptions. It was resolved that Mr Speaker does call upon the Member by name, making such disturbance, and that every such person shall incur the displeasure and censure of the House.”

On disorderly conduct showing disrespect to the Chair, Section 19(d) and (e) of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, provide that:

                        “
(d) shows disrespect in speech or manner towards the Speaker; or

(e) any person shall be guilty of an offence who commits any other act of intentional disrespect to or with reference to the proceedings of the Assembly or of a committee of the Assembly or to any person presiding at such proceedings.”

Taking into consideration the two breaches I have stated and the authorities I have cited, the Committee resolved to suspend Major R. M. Chizhyuka from the service of the National Assembly for a period of sixty (60) days in accordance with the provisions of section 28 of the National Assembly (Powers and Privileges) Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia.

“(1) Where any member commits any contempt of the Assembly, whether specified in Section 19 or otherwise the Assembly may, by resolution, either direct the Speaker to reprimand such member or suspend him from the service of the Assembly for such period as it may determine provided that such period shall not extend beyond the last day of meeting next following that in which the resolution is passed, or of the session in which the resolution is passed, whichever shall first occur.”

Therefore, in accordance with Section 28(1) of the National Assembly Powers and Privileges Act, Cap 12 of the Laws of Zambia, and Standing Order No. 151(2) which requires a resolution of the House on a matter of this nature, I now put the question.

Question that the House accordingly suspends Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP, for a period of sixty (60) days as recommended by the Committee on Privileges, Absences and Support Services, put and agreed to.

Mr Speaker: I now turn to address you, Major R. M. Chizhyuka, MP.

Before I order you to leave the Chamber, I wish to inform you, Major R.M. Chizhyuka, that your conduct of continuous interjections and unwarranted running commentaries while another hon. Member was on the Floor of the House was not only a breach of the rules of debate and parliamentary etiquette, as I have already stated but also dishonourable.

 By breaching the rules of this House, you are crippling the smooth operations of the House because it operates on the practice of rules and procedures.

Similarly, your defiance of the orders from the Chair by continuing to utter interjections while you were walking out of the Chamber amounts to a destruction of the pillar of parliamentary procedure. You may wish to know that parliamentary procedure consists of three elements, namely, the forms of proceedings of the House; the machinery of direction and delegation established by the House; and the rules which govern the working of the forms and the machinery.

The forms of proceedings, for example, refer to the stages a Bill must go through before it is passed by the House, and this form of proceedings is governed by rules at each stage. Similarly, the machinery of direction and delegation refers to the presiding and permanent officers of the House.

By being defiant to the Chair, you were destroying the pillar of parliamentary democracy. This cannot be allowed because it is irresponsible behaviour. You, as an individual, cannot be allowed to ruin this House.

Finally, I wish to inform you that, during the suspension, in accordance with Section 28 of the Powers and privileges Act, Cap 12 of the laws of Zambia, no salary or allowance will be paid to you and you will not participate in any Business or activities of the House and its committees for the duration of the suspension. You shall also not participate in any activities, if any, that you usually take part in, in your capacity as an Honourable Member of the National Assembly.

I now order you to leave the Chamber through the Main Entrance of the Chamber, on sixty (60) days suspension as resolved by the House.

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The Estimates of Expenditure (Including Capital and Constitutional and Statutory Expenditure) for the year 1st January, 2009 to 31st December, 2009 were reported to the House as having passed through Committee with amendments.

Report adopted and Mr Speaker appointed the Minister of Finance and National Planning to be a committee of one to bring in the necessary Bill to give effect to the resolution of the Committee of Supply.

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BILLS

FIRST READING

The following Bill was read the first time:

The Appropriation Bill, 2009.

Second Reading, now.

SECOND READING

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2009

 Dr Musokotwane: Mr Speaker, the Bill before the House marks the conclusion of the noble and important task we started in the Committee of Supply. I wish to take this opportunity to express my sincere appreciation to you for the judicious guidance in the way you conducted Business in the House. My sincere thanks also go to the Deputy Speaker and the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee of Supply whose valuable contributions and effort to this entire process I wish to recognise.

Sir, let me also thank the Leader of Government Business, His Honour the Vice President for properly organising the Business of the House thereby making the whole process smooth and successful. Sir, I am indebted too to the office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for the invaluable assistance rendered during the deliberations on the motion.

Lastly but not the least, I wish to pay tribute to my hon. colleagues through the various committees and individually for their input and contributions to the entire process and their advice on a number of issues that arose during the debates.

As this House appropriates the 2009 Budget, we have to recognise that only part of the job has been done. The other important part comes with the implementation and execution of the budget so that the numbers reflected in the Yellow Book can be meaningful to the Zambian people whom we serve. I, therefore, implore all players, including those responsible for the mobilisation, release and expending of financial resources, to be on top of things so that the objectives set by the Government can be successfully attained.

Mr Speaker, given the global financial crisis which has also affected the Government, the available and scarce resources must be employed prudently. In particular, I call upon ministries, provinces and other spending agencies to move decisively and ensure resources given to them are effectively and efficiently utilised. This is very important especially when it comes to the implementation and execution of capital programmes. My ministry will also step up efforts in monitoring and evaluating the implementation of capital projects now that the monitoring and evaluation department is up and running in the Ministry of Finance and National Planning.

Mr Speaker, to my hon. colleagues, I have to remind them that their involvement in the implementation of the budget and particularly the capital projects is very cardinal as they are close to our people.  However, their involvement in the important national task of reshaping our Constitution means that they will have less time for monitoring projects in their respective constituencies.

May I, therefore, call upon other stakeholders including individual Zambians to get involved in the implementation and execution of the national Budget. The successful execution of these programmes is critical to the attainment of the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs) and the improvement of the quality of people’s lives.

Sir, in concluding, I wish to state that the Government and in particular the Ministry of Finance and National Planning has taken note of the various issues raised during the debate of the budget Motion and some of these will be addressed in future. In the expenditure area, Government is in the process of conducting an expenditure review in order to improve budget execution which will ultimately contribute to the improvement of the public service delivery system.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank the hon. Members of this House for their support.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Question put and agreed to and the Bill read a second time.

Committed to a committee of the Whole House.

Committee, now.

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HOUSE IN COMMITTEE

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITEES in the Chair]

THE APPROPRIATION BILL, 2009

Clauses 1 and 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

SCHEDULE

Mr Milupi: Madam Chairperson, it is just a point for clarification. At the top, it says No. 6 of 2008.

The Chairperson: That is the page I am also reading.

Mr Milupi: The year that follows.

The Chairperson: Oh! 2008.

Mr Milupi: Also on page 4 …

The Chairperson: It is a typographical error. Thank you.

Schedule, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Title agreed to.

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HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

The Following Bill was reported to the House as having passed through Committee without amendment:

The Appropriation Bill, 2009

Third Reading, now.

The following Bill was read the third time and passed:

The Appropriation Bill, 2009

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MOTION

ADJOURNMENT SINE DIE

The Vice-President and Minister of Justice (Mr Kunda, SC): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adjourn sine die.

Question put and agreed to.

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The House adjourned accordingly at 0126 hours on Saturday, 28th March, 2009, sine die.

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