DAILY PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES FOR THE FOURTH SESSION OF TEN ASSEMBLY

Wednesday, 25th November, 2009

The House met at 1430 hours

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

NATIONAL ANTHEM

PRAYER

________
 

RULING BY MR SPEAKER

POINT OF ORDER RAISED BY MR D. MWILA, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FOR CHIPILI PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCY, AGAINST THE MINISTER OF TOURISM, ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES,
HON. C. NAMUGALA, MP, ON FRIDAY, 23RD OCTOBER, 2009.

Mr Speaker: The House will recall that, on Friday, 23rd October, 2009, when the House was considering Question for Oral Answer No. 150 and the hon. Member for Kantanshi Parliamentary Constituency, Mr Y. Mukanga, MP, was asking a supplementary question, the hon. Member of Parliament for Chipili Parliamentary Constituency, Mr D. Mwila, MP, raised the following point of order:

“Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.  The rules of this House are that no hon. Member will give false information on the Floor of this House.  The hon. Minister stated that all the procedures regarding the law were followed, and yet, under this law, Statutory Instrument No. 28 of 1997 states that before any construction of any building starts, it has to be approved by the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ).

“Mr Speaker, the advertisement was put in the Zambia Daily Mail newspaper on 25th August, 2009.  The Environmental Council of Zambia indicated that the deadline would be 23rd September, 2009.

“Mr Speaker, I just want to quote from the Statutory Instrument which states that:

‘The developer shall, prior to the submission of the environmental impact statement to the council, take all measures necessary to seek the views of the people in the communities which will be affected by the project. In seeking the views of the community in accordance with sub-regulation (1), the developer shall publicise the intended project.’

“Mr Speaker, my concern was that the project was started before the approval. Is the hon. Minister in order to mislead this House that all the procedures regarding the law were followed when they were not? I need your serious ruling on this matter.”

In my immediate remarks on the point of order, I stated:

“The hon. Member for Chipili who asked Question No. 150 on the Order Paper, having listened to the reply by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, is not satisfied.  He is, in fact, saying that the hon. Minister gave a false answer.  In so doing, the hon. Minister has misled this House and the nation.

“As this is a matter of the law, I do not consider it prudent for me to rule on it immediately.  I shall study the point of order and the documentation which, I noticed, the hon. Member for Chipili has not laid on the Table of the House.  If he does so, that will be part of the documentation.  I shall study it and, if necessary, a prima facie case may be established. Based on that, further steps will be taken.  You may now lay the document on the Table of the House.”

Hon. Members will recall, further, that the point of order was in response to the answer given by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to a supplementary question raised by Mr D. Mwila, MP, in which he had asked as follows:

“Mr Speaker, I want the hon. Minister to inform this House whether all the procedures were followed going by the law.”

In response to the supplementary question, the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources had answered as follows:

“… yes, the law was followed.  There was, however, an administrative arrangement between the Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ) and High Towers Limited to the effect that some preliminary works could start while awaiting final approval by the Projects Approval Committee.”

Hon Members, in line with parliamentary practice and procedure, the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to the Environmental Council of Zambia, requesting their written submission on the legal procedures which ought to be followed in the approval of an Environmental Impact Assessment statement vis-à-vis commencement of a project and the call for public comments.  Further, the Environmental Council of Zambia was requested to explain what exactly transpired in the case of the Manda Hill Re-development Project, and to provide information on the administrative arrangements, if any, that existed between the Environmental Council of Zambia and High Towers Zambia Limited.

Hon. Members, the Environmental Council of Zambia responded as follows:

“Reference is made to your letter NAS/11/17/2 dated October 29, 2009, concerning the above-mentioned subject.

“The procedure for carrying out an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) is contained in the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations, No. 28 of 1997.”
 
In their letter of response, the Environmental Council of Zambia outlined the stages to be followed under the law as follows:

“1.    the Developer prepares Terms of Reference (ToRs) of the Environmental Impact Assessment and submits the same to the Environmental Council of Zambia in accordance with the provisions of Regulation 8;

“2.    the Environmental Council of Zambia approves Terms of Reference as provided by Regulation 9;

“3.    the Developer carries out public consultation as provided by Regulation 10;

“4.    the developer prepares and submits the Environmental Impact Assessment document as per the provisions of Regulation 11;

“5.    the Environmental Council of Zambia consults stakeholders in accordance with the provisions of Regulations 15 and 16;

“6.    where necessary, the Environmental Council of Zambia conducts public hearing as provided by Regulations 17 to 19;

“7.    the council makes decision as provided by Regulations 20 to 22; and

“8.    the Environmental Council of Zambia communicates the decision to the developer according to the provisions of Regulation 23.”
The Environmental Council of Zambia (ECZ), in their response, further outlined the events surrounding the Manda Hill re-development project as follows:

“In 2007, High Towers Zambia Limited submitted terms of reference to the ECZ to carry out an Environmental Impact Assessment for the re-development of the Manda Hill Shopping Centre and the terms of reference were approved.  In January, 2008, a draft assessment was submitted to the ECZ for consideration.  By that time, the Lusaka City Council (LCC) had not yet approved the building plans for the project and the ECZ could, therefore, not allow any works to commence. The plans were approved only after the Lands Tribunal had heard an appeal by High Towers Zambia Limited and ruled in favour of High Towers Zambia Limited. After the ruling by the Lands Tribunal, on April 28, 2009, High Towers Zambia Limited submitted the draft Environmental Impact Assessment document to the ECZ for review.  As a result of time lost, on May 15, 2009, the High Towers Zambia Limited Environmental Impact Assessment Consultant wrote to the ECZ requesting permission to carry out preliminary works at the site.  The works were restricted to preliminary excavations to determine existing services and foundation lines.  In the same letter of May 15, the developer requested a comfort letter from the ECZ to the project financiers to confirm that the developers were complying with the Environmental Impact Assessment regulations, and ECZ accordingly wrote to the project financers on May 19, 2009.  In a meeting held with the developer on June 18, 2009, the ECZ granted permission for the preliminary works, so as not to disadvantage the development further, while at the same time ensuring that the proposed project was subjected to the Environmental Impact Assessment process as per the requirement of the law. 

“In the meantime, the ECZ reviewed the draft document and provided comments to the developer who, in turn, submitted the final Environmental Impact Assessment on August 5, 2009.  However, the developer did not pay the statutory fees required to process the Environmental Impact Assessment, and, as a result, the public consultation exercise, as required by law, could not begin. The ECZ, therefore, granted permission for preliminary works on the basis that the project had suffered years of delay and the facility was a less polluting entity which would not significantly impact on the environment.  Consequently, High Towers Zambia Limited started the preliminary works and, after making payment of the Environmental Impact Assessment fees, the ECZ started the call for comments from the public through advertisements placed in the local press on August 25, 2009, and the deadline for submission was September 23, 2009.  

“The type of project being undertaken by High Towers Zambia Limited at the Manda Hill site was carefully reviewed and precaution was taken to ensure that impacts such as dust, sanitation and noise were adequately addressed even during the preliminary works.

“While the preliminary works were being undertaken, the High Towers Zambia Limited Project Manager was replaced with a new person who was not aware of the agreement that had been made with the ECZ regarding the preliminary works and instead proceeded to begin full construction.  The ECZ held discussions with the new Project Manager who admitted that there had been a misunderstanding on his part and agreed to immediately stop the construction work.  The ECZ put a stop order in writing on October 13, 2009, and the developer immediately complied and stopped all the works pending a decision by the Projects Approval Committee of the ECZ, which was, finally, made on October 23, 2009.” 

Hon Members, I have carefully studied the point of order. The documentation and relevant provisions of the law relating to this matter have established the following facts:

(a)    going by the provisions of the Environmental Protection and Pollution Control (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations, the process in respect of the Manda Hill Re-development Project could have been handled better than using informal arrangements between the ECZ and the developer; and

(b)    the answers given by the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources with regard to the administrative arrangements between the ECZ and High Towers Zambia Limited to proceed with preliminary works at the site while awaiting the decision of the Projects Approval Committee of the ECZ were factual because that is what transpired.  

In the light of what I have stated, I have to rule that the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources did not mislead the House in her answers.  

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: With regard to whether the law was followed in this process, I have already stated that the process could have been handled in a much better way than what had transpired; and informal arrangements should be avoided in preference to following the law to the letter.

Furthermore, let me caution the House that it is a breach of parliamentary procedure and practice for an hon. Member of the House to debate matters pending the Chair’s ruling outside the House, let alone through the media.  The hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources was reported to have commented on this matter in the media even when the Chair had already indicated to the House that he would rule on the matter after carefully studying the point of order.  

Debating a matter pending the Chair’s ruling constitutes a punishable offence and should be avoided. 

I, therefore, caution the House and the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, in particular, that any breach of parliamentary procedure and practice, in this respect, in future, will invite stiff punishment on the part of the hon. Member who commits it.

I thank you.

__________

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

NATIONAL SPORTS COUNCIL OF ZAMBIA BOARD

208. Mr Mwango (Kanchibiya) asked the Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development how much money the Government spent on the National Sports Council of Zambia Board from 2006 to 2008, year by year.

The Deputy Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development (Dr Kalila): Mr Speaker …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Dr Kalila: … I wish to inform this august House that the Government only releases grants to the National Sports Council of Zambia (NSCZ) and not to the board. In other words, the Government did not spend any money on the NSCZ Board. The following grants were, however, released to NSCZ for the period 2006 to 2008:
Year                Grant

2006    K558,339,791.00
2007    K499,036,766.00
2008    K491,391,223.00

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwango: Mr Speaker, is the Government satisfied with the way the grants being given to the NSCZ are being utilised?
 
Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, if I got the question correctly, the hon. Member wants to know whether we are satisfied with the way the NSCZ is using these grants. Yes, we are satisfied.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mwenya (Nkana): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development how the NSCZ is able to operate when the board’s chairperson is an hon. Member of this House, and yet Parliament is supposed to carry out an oversight role on the performance of the NSCZ. How is the board chairperson expected to perform in such as situation?

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, the appointment of the chairperson of the NSCZ is enshrined in the National Sports Council Act and is a prerogative of the hon. Minister of Sport, Youth and Child Development to appoint any citizen he or she wishes. We are very happy with the appointment of Hon. Chifumu Banda, SC., and we have not seen any conflict of interest so far.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Simuusa (Nchanga): Mr Speaker, I wish to learn from the hon. Minister whether he is aware of how much the board members get every time the board sits and who pays that allowance.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, the board members of the NSCZ are volunteers and do not get any allowance, at the moment, but I am aware that submissions have been made to my ministry in order to change this.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Lubinda (Kabwata): Sir, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister whether there have been any representations from different sports associations to the effect that the appointment of the chairperson of the NSCZ board by the hon. Minister should cease so that the sports associations appoint the commissioners themselves.

Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I would like to thank Hon. Lubinda for that question. First and foremost, I want to say that there has not been any presentation to the ministry that I am aware of regarding the objection of the appointment of the chairperson of the NSCZ board by the hon. Minister. As I said earlier, the appointment of the chairperson of this board is enshrined in the National Sports Council of Zambia Act and I want to read what it says in part V:

“The Council shall consist of:

(a)    A Chairman, appointed by the Minister.”

Therefore, the hon. Minister is given power by this Act to appoint who he or she so ever wishes. There have not been any objections, whatsoever, and we are very happy with Hon. Chifumu Banda, SC.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, we have heard that a lot of sports associations have been crying for funding. May I know how the monies given to the NSCZ are utilised?  Are the grants meant for sports associations because K500 million is quite a substantial amount of money?
 
Dr Kalila: Mr Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to explain exactly how sport is financed in Zambia. First of all, hon. Members know that the NSCZ is the implementing wing of the Government on all matters related to sports and that money is given to it is in two forms. Firstly, it is by way of grants, which I have indicated, here, and I have tabulated year by year how much was given in terms of grants. These monies were mainly for the purposes of administrative costs in the NSCZ’s day- to - day operations.

The second mode of funding is by way of support to sports associations. This money is given to the NSCZ to support sports associations in their activities. If you recall, in the Ministry of Sport, Youth and Child Development’s budget for next year, which we have just approved, an amount of K270 million has been allocated. This money will be administered by the NSCZ to various sports associations. This is how this money is used and I hope I have been of use to the hon. Member.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

ZAMBIA EDUCATION PUBLISHING HOUSE

209. Mr Malama (Mfuwe) asked the Minister of Education:

(a)    whether the newspaper printing machine at Zambia Education Publishing House (ZEPH) was functional; and
(b)    what plans the Government had for the printing machine.

The Deputy Minister of Education (Mr Sinyinda): Mr Speaker, the newspaper printing machine at the ZEPH is not functional. It is, however, repairable. The ministry is scouting for funds to repair it. An assessment to repair the machine was made and was estimated at a cost of K800 million.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out when the machine broke down and why it has taken some time for the Government to make the decision of repairing it and whether it is cost effective to have it repaired rather than buying a new one.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, I ought to consult with the officers to find out when it broke down so that I give correct answer to this august House.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr L. J. Mulenga (Kwacha): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. deputy Minister of Education what his immediate and strategic plans are in view of this K800 million to repair this machine. Will it be economically viable and if not, what are the alternative means of resolving this issue?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, it is true that the machine is repairable. We feel that if we can just get this money to repair it, it will still be viable.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Lubinda: Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how he expects ZEPH to realise money for repairing this machine when it is riddled by huge outstanding salary and terminal benefit arrears which amount to more than K4 billion owed to more than 200 ex-employees. How does he expect this company to raise K800 million to repair the machine when it is supposed to liquidate that debt?

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, we are very much aware of the need to review the operations of this company. However, as for the machine, like I have already pointed out, we are still scouting for this money to make it viable. 

I thank you, Sir.

Mr D. Mwila (Chipili): Mr Speaker, I would like to find out from the hon. Minister how much it will cost the Government to buy a new machine so that we make comparisons.

Mr Sinyinda: Mr Speaker, as I have already stated, buying a new machine, at the moment, is not our priority. 

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Sinyinda: However, if, at all, we buy a new machine, I cannot tell how much it would cost us. All I can say is that we are still scouting for money so that we can repair this machine.

I thank you, Sir.

Mr Speaker: For the benefit of the House, I ignored that point of order because it was being made by an hon. Minister on another hon. Minister. It is not allowed.

Laughter

________

MOTIONS

REPORT OF THE PARLIAMENTARY SELECT COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO SCRUTINISE THE PRESIDENTIAL APPOINTMENTS OF JUDGE ESAU ELLIOT CHULU TO SERVE AS COMMISSIONER OF THE ELECTORAL COMMISSION OF ZAMBIA AND PROFESSOR PATRICK MPHANZA MVUNGA, SC., TO SERVE AS A MEMBER OF THE JUDICIAL COMPLAINTS AUTHORITY

Mr B. Y. Mwila (Nchelenge): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that this House do adopt …

Mr Mufalali: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order … haa!

Let me guide. Can you wait until the Motion is moved and the debate has started. I am assuming that it is a life or death point of order.

Laughter
Mr B. Y. Mwila: … the report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential Appointments of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) and Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, SC., to serve as a Member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, respectively, laid on the Table of the House on 19th November, 2009.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Sing’ombe (Dundumwezi): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Mr Speaker, the appointment of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu is made pursuant to the provisions of Section 4, subsection 3 of the Electoral Act, Cap. 17, of the Laws of Zambia which states that: 

“The members shall be appointed by the President subject to ratification by the National Assembly.”

The Constitution provides, further, at section 4, subsection 2, that: 

“The Commission shall consist of the following full-time members:

(i)    a Chairperson; and
(ii)    not more than four other members.”

The appointment of Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, SC., as a member of the Judicial Complaints Authority is made pursuant to the provisions of Section 20, subsection 2 of the Judicial Code of Conduct Act No. 13 of 1999, which states as follows: 

“The members of the Commission shall be appointed by the President subject to ratification by the National Assembly.”

Mr Speaker, your Committee were alive to the fact that the positions of Commissioner of the ECZ and Member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, respectively, are critically important to the governance of this country and the dispensing of justice.

Mr Speaker, in light of this, persons holding these positions should not only be competent, but must also be persons of integrity and committed to the service of the nation.

In view of the critical role that the ECZ plays of ensuring a responsive and effective electoral process that enhances democracy and engenders public confidence, your Committee resolved that only a person of high competence and unquestionable integrity should serve on the commission. 

As regards the persons proposed to serve on the Judicial Complaints Authority, your Committee took the view that only persons with integrity, diligence, sound character and, above all, who are committed to the promotion of justice for the benefit of the nation should serve on the authority.

In view of the foregoing, your Committee took utmost care in scrutinising the nominee’s curriculum vitae (CVs) as well as all information submitted to them by the State investigative agencies and relevant professional bodies.

In terms of constitutional provisions, your Committee analysed the requirements for appointment as Commissioner of the ECZ as contained in Section 4, subsection 3 of the Electoral Commission Act, Cap. 17 of the Laws of Zambia. Your Committee were satisfied that the nominee, Judge Esau Elliot Chulu, was eminently qualified for the position.

Your Committee, also using the provisions of the Constitution in Section 20, subsection 2 of the Judicial Code of Conduct Act 13 of 1999, are satisfied that the nominee, Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, SC., is eminently qualified to be appointed to the proposed position.

Mr Speaker, all the State security agencies, which included the Zambia Police Force, Drug Enforcement Commission and Anti-Corruption Commission, informed your Committee that a search of their records revealed that there were no adverse reports against the nominees in relation to criminal activities, drug trafficking, money laundering, drug abuse or corrupt practices. The State security agencies also confirmed that the nominees are Zambian citizens and will not pose a security risk to the nation if appointed to serve in these sensitive positions.

Sir, your Committee interacted with the Electoral Commission of Zambia, Judicial Service Commission and Judicial Complaints Authority, who all supported the candidature of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia.

Further, as regards the suitability of Professor Patrick M Mvunga, SC., to serve as member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, your Committee interacted with the Law Association of Zambia, Judicial Complaints Authority and the Judicial Service Commission and as far as they were concerned, the nominee is qualified.

Mr Speaker, your Committee also had an opportunity to interact with the hon. Minister for Presidential Affairs who represented the appointing authority. Apart from stating that the nominees were qualified, in terms of constitutional requirements, to be appointed as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia and Member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, respectively, the hon. Minister informed your Committee that his office had not received any negative reports on them.

Your Committee observed that the nominees’ professions and occupations had given them valuable experience which would enable them to contribute positively to the institutions they have been nominated for and, therefore, strongly recommend that the House do ratify the appointments of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu and Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, SC., to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia and Member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, respectively.

In conclusion, Mr Speaker, allow me to thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the services and advice rendered during the deliberations. Your Committee also wish to thank the State security and investigative agencies, professional bodies and other stakeholder institutions for the oral and written submissions which assisted your Committee in their work.

Your Committee wish to place on record their gratitude to you, Mr Speaker, for allowing them to serve on this very important Select Committee.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Sing’ombe: Now, Mr Speaker.

Sir, I beg to second the Motion so ably moved by the mover that this House do ratify the presidential appointments of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu and Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, SC., to serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia and Member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, respectively.

Mr Speaker, the mover of the Motion has covered most of the salient issues and I will only address one or two issues. The nominees being considered for appointment to these important public offices are eminent persons who have served the nation in other public offices in a very diligent manner. The Electoral Commission of Zambia is a very sensitive institution and has the capacity to unite or divide the nation ...

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sing’ombe: ... depending on how it handles the elections and electoral reforms process. It is, therefore, befitting that persons of the calibre of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu are appointed to serve on it, taking into account his experience and standing in the Zambian society. The appointment of these two eminent persons whose vast experience will enhance performance on the two institutions is, indeed, a step in the right direction. 

May I reiterate one point that all your Select Committees before this one have belaboured. This is the issue of interacting with the Office of the President, Special Division. As they scrutinise special appointments, the non-appearance of these officers before your Committee has robbed your Committee of vital information which may not be availed by any other institution. Your Committee, therefore, implore the President to reconsider this issue and allow these officers to appear before them.

Mr Speaker, may I conclude by thanking you for your valuable guidance during the deliberation of your Committee. May I also thank the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly and her staff for their commitment to work and for services rendered to your Committee.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC. (Chasefu): Thank you, Sir.

In supporting the nomination of both nominees, I would like to briefly state that both nominees are lawyers by profession with experience of over thirty-five years at the Zambian Bar. They have been advocates for over three decades.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: With regard to educational qualifications, Judge Esau Elliot Chulu holds two university degrees, that is one from the University of Zambia and another from the University of London. He is, therefore, eminently qualified in terms of educational qualifications.

As for Professor Mvunga, he has three degrees, … 

Hon. Opposition Member: It does not matter.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … the highest being a Doctorate in Philosophy from the University of London. I have known them for over thirty-four years as I have also practised law for over thirty-four years. Therefore, I will not bother myself with hecklers who specialise in debating while seated, and yet they have an opportunity to speak.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Not only that, the two nominees are mature and the type of job for which they have been nominated calls for maturity. 

Mr D. Mwila: They want to give jobs to their friends.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Some people are so immature to the extent that they take pleasure in making commentaries when they have an opportunity to debate. 

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: That is a sign of immaturity. 

Mr Speaker: Order! The hon. Member for Chasefu will ignore the hecklers and address the Chair.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: I do not hear them.

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: The greatest heckler is very close to me, Mr Speaker.

Laughter

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: Mr Speaker, I was submitting that the jobs for which the two have been nominated calls for nominees with experience as well as maturity in age ... 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: … because the types of jobs they are called upon to do are jobs that affect the lives of many people. You cannot entrust such jobs to hecklers. You need to entrust such jobs to people with a mature disposition and the interest of the nation at heart.

Hon. Opposition Members: Order! 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr C. K. B. Banda, SC.: As for nominee Judge Chulu, he has been a Judge for a long time. He worked in the corporate world as a legal counsel for the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM) for eighteen years. Not only that, he started his legal career as a resident magistrate. The position of resident magistrate is open to professional people who hold professional qualifications and the type of job that he is nominated for calls for a person who understands the law. 

Mr Speaker, there are a lot of complaints which border on the law when it comes to the discharge of the functions of Commissioner at the Electoral Commission of Zambia. It is, in my view, an added advantage for a nominee to have these requisite qualifications.

Mr Speaker, the Judicial Complaints Authority is an authority that looks at complaints that people may have against judicial officers. A nominee of Professor Mvunga’s calibre is definitely qualified for this position.

With these few words, I, wholeheartedly, support the nominations.

I thank you, Sir.{mospagebreak}

Mr Mukanga (Kantanshi): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to also add my voice to the debate on this important Motion. I would also like to thank the mover and seconder of the Motion. 

Mr Speaker, as I read the report, I discovered that the curriculum vitae did not show the birth places of the nominees. They do not even indicate the places of birth.

Mrs Phiri:  Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: I wondered why the report was silent about this issue. Zambia is a Christian nation and everything that is supposed to be done is supposed to be done in a Christian manner. The Bible tells us that he who aspires to be a Bishop, aspires to do the noble job. Those that aspire to be Bishops, we are told according to the scriptures, should be people who should be above reproach. In short, they should be beyond suspicion such that when the people look at them, it will be difficult to find any faults. I believe the same applies to these nominees that we have to day. They should be of high integrity.

Sir, the ECZ is a very important organisation because it can unite or destroy the people of Zambia. If not well handled, it can bring chaos. So, it can unite the country or destroy it.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the Electoral Commission of Zambia can cause chaos in this country.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: It is for this reason that we need people of great calibre. Impartiality should be the mother principle of the ECZ. 

Hon. Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, let me look at the names that have been brought before this House. Professor Mvunga was involved in the Dora Siliya Tribunal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: In that case, he was supposed to represent the people of Zambia, through the State, but he failed to file in some of the documents and, now, Dora Siliya is very happy because she was acquitted.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: What calibre are we talking about when we see all these things? What else do we need? What integrity are we talking about when the position of the people of Zambia on that tribunal was compromised?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: It is for this reason that I question the prudence of ratifying the nomination of a person who is able to thrive on the relationship he has with the appointing authority.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, at one time, the people of Zambia questioned and suspected that there was an invisible hand of the Executive regarding the Dora Siliya Tribunal. When we saw the professor on the presidential entourage to Swaziland and the United States of America, we were vindicated. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: We said that, maybe, that was the reason he did not file the documents.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, what will stop the State Counsel from being compromised when we have seen State Counsels being compromised in this House? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: We have seen State Counsels who used to hammer the Executive, but after they were given trips …

Hon. Opposition Member: Cuba!

Mr Mukanga: … to places, such as Cuba, they now support them fully.

Laughter

Mr Mukanga: It is for this reason that I say this State Counsel can be compromised unless we look at issues from all angles. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Sir, the Judicial Complaints Authority can be compromised if we have people of compromised calibre. 

Hon. Opposition members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Coming to Judge Esau Elliot Chulu, he worked for the Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines (ZCCM). He is the Judge-in-Charge of the High Court.  In short, he is the one who allocates cases there and now is he is on contract. So why should we give him another job? Why should we give him another contract? Why should he be transferred from that position and be taken elsewhere. 

I was looking at his age and discovered that he was sixty-seven years old and I think he is old. If you want a lawyer of a High Court Judge calibre, we can even get from amongst practising lawyers, even the young ones. Even at the High Court, there are some. Why should we go for this person who is old?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, these jobs are not for friends. They are supposed to be jobs for people of high integrity. 

Sir, when you look at the ECZ composition, Florence Mumba, Chairperson of the ECZ, comes from Eastern Province, ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: … Joseph Jalasi comes from Eastern Province, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: … and so does Miniver Tembo.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: And now Esau Elliot Chulu from Eastern Province?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: The only person who is not from Eastern Province is Grace Mulapesi. Four out of five members of the ECZ are from Eastern Province. That is where we have a problem. When there is an election, we have a situation where …

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: Mr Speaker, is the hon. Member for Roan in order …

Mr Kambwili: Te ine bamudala!

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: ... or Member of Parliament for Mufulira …

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! I want to hear.

Lieutenant-General Shikapwasha: … or, sorry, Kantanshi. Is he in order to misinform the nation that Miniver Tembo comes from Eastern Province when she comes from Northern Province?

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! Through that point of order, the hon. Member is required to confirm the province where the person he mentioned in his debate comes from.

May he continue, please.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Mrs Miniver Tembo is connected to Eastern Province through marriage.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: By virtue of being married, she bears …

Mr Speaker: Order! Is she from Eastern Province?

Mr Mukanga: I thank you, Sir.

She is not from Eastern Province, but I was saying that she has connections with Eastern Province.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: I think it is important to realise that she has that connection. It is still three out of five coming from Eastern Province. Why should we only be talking about people from Eastern Province when there are so many tribes in Zambia?

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: We have seventy-two tribes in Zambia. That is why there must be a balance at the ECZ so that there is impartiality, but if we continue on those lines, it will be very difficult to maintain this balance.

Mr Imasiku: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Imasiku: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Imasiku: Is the hon. Member on the Floor in order to debate in a tribal manner?

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Hon. Opposition Members: No!

Mr Imasiku: Why should he be tribal in his debate? Are we condoning tribalism in this House? I need your serious ruling.

Mr Speaker: That point of order by the hon. Deputy Minister of Science, Technology and Vocation Technology is querying the manner in which the hon. Member for Kantanshi Constituency is dwelling on tribal lines. The hon. Member has to deal with this matter regarding whether it is the tribe of a person that performs. 

Continue, please.

Mr Mukanga: Mr Speaker, I thank you for your guidance.

I believe that it is important that every time the President is making appointments, he takes a lot of things into consideration. It is for this reason that when you look at the picture, I am not trying to be tribalistic. I am Lunda by tribe and I know that as Lundas we are told that we should love everybody and it is important that we look at this issue from a more realistic perspective. The President is from Eastern Province. We have a Chief Justice who is supposed to be the presiding officer from Eastern Province. It is important that every tribe is taken on board so that there is no compromise or suspicion. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: These are issues that cause problems if they are not addressed. That is why it is important that they are addressed now. 

Sir, these positions are not for friends. They are not for people who are handpicked. These positions are supposed to …

Mr Sichilima: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I rise on a very serious point of order.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! I want to listen to the point of order.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, is it in order for Hon. Yamfwa Mukanga to continue debating in that manner and insinuating that since the President comes from the Eastern Province, all those who were in employment before he became President should be fired? 

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Is that the line of debate that he wants to take? I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Following that point of order that has been raised by the hon. Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President, I expect that there will be hon. Members of this House who will support these nominations. At that point, just like at any other point, I will be too glad to give them the Floor to debate and argue …

Mr Lubinda: Long live the Chair!

Mr Speaker: Order! I am alive.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: So, order!

Laughter

Dr Katema: Long live the Chair!

Mr Speaker: At that point, those who will support these nominations should be free to debate in support. 

However, I must caution that certain manners or ways of debating can be inflammatory, if not carefully handled. You may be critical of certain things, but it depends upon how you handle such criticism. Is your criticism constructive or not? That is the question. 

I shall allow the hon. Member for Kantanshi to continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear! Hammer, now.

Mr Mukanga: Sir, it was after looking at all these issues that I said that there should be a balance at the ECZ.

Mr Speaker, I also looked at another issue where the report states that Lusaka lawyer, Mr John Sangwa, lodged a complaint against Judge Esau Elliot Chulu for alleged misconduct. However, before the case could be resolved, the Judge is now being appointed to serve as Commissioner of the ECZ. I think it is not in order. It is not right.

Sir, it is for this reason that I have asked my colleagues from the Opposition not to support these nominations.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: This is because supporting these nominations will be like working against the people who brought us here. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukanga: Therefore, it is important that we speak with the same voice as the electorate and refuse such nominations. Until there is a balance and everybody is represented at the ECZ, we shall not support such nominations. I urge my colleagues from the Opposition not to support these nominations. 

Mr Mukanga: I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

The Deputy Minister in the Office of the Vice-President (Mr Sichilima): Mr Speaker, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Motion. From the outset, I wish to state that I support the Motion totally. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, in supporting it, I would like to state that I have personally known these two people for a very long time, young as I may be. Judge Chulu was my boss when I was working for ZCCM. Those who are questioning his performance should ask those of us who worked with him.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: If this is not the right time that Zambians need to get united and support people who have worked as lawyers for over thirty-four years, such as Hon. Chifumu Banda, SC., said, then, what record are we looking for? It is not a joke.

Mr Speaker, I also wish to counter some of the sentiments put across with regard to the names. In Zambia, if you are not careful, you can relate a name to a certain tribe when, in fact, that person comes from a totally different region. I could be a Sichilima and there can be Sichilimas in the Southern Province. There are Mumbas in the Eastern Province and Namukales in the Western Province. There are so many names that are similar. We are one people and should not forget this fact. 

Sir, it is surprising that we have people in this House who put tribal tags on the performance of individuals who are assigned to do certain tasks. I am Mambwe by tribe, but someone might think I am Lungu. Mambwes and Lungus are the same. There are Mambwes who are Lungu and there are Sichilimas who are Lungu. Does it make any difference?

For example, if I am assigned to do a certain job by the appointing authority, people should look at what I am going to do. I should be picked on merit and that should be supported. It has been mentioned that the President comes from the Eastern Province. Therefore, does it mean that all the teachers who are from the Eastern Province should cease to be teachers?

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima:  Is that the way we will work as Zambians when we have all agreed that we are, “One Zambia One Nation?” We need to correct the people who are mentioning names out there. Before the President and Vice-President were appointed to their positions, the nominees were still serving and even practising law. 

Mr Speaker, I do not know if there is any guideline or, indeed, any qualification in any university which states that you need to be a Mambwe in order to work at the Electoral Commission of Zambia. It is only when the society and the appointing authority are comfortable that one can perform that one takes up a job. Some people have failed even to become councillors and we should not recall them on tribal grounds. We are looking at performance. For instance, let us look at Professor Mvunga. This man has worked in various fields, including that of constitution making, from the time some of us were still in school. This man is contributing positively to the constitution making process which is going on at the moment. 

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Even when he is criticised publicly, he stands up to accept. Now, if you have such a man, surely, can you come to this House and doubt his performance? Let us assume that, tomorrow, the person speaking to you, Sir, becomes President …

Interruptions

Mr Sichilima: Some of you have no ambitions.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Order! This Motion is extremely serious and the hon. Members should not take it lightly. Listen, and if you want to contribute, I shall give you the Floor.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, thank you for your usual wise guidance. As senior hon. Members, we have learnt from you and I hope other hon. Members can also learn from you. I was saying that when we elect the President, we do not look at the tribe. When Zambians vote for the President, they do not look at the tribe, but the person who can lead them. When somebody is being appointed, there are a number of factors involved. When we realise that this person is going to perform, we must be ready to unite. 

Mr Speaker, Professor Mvunga was also involved in one of the tribunals. Who says the courts are only there to convict? I am not a lawyer, but, at least, I know that the courts are not only there to convict or jail people. They are there to prove people either innocent or guilty. If they are not guilty, this House, hon. Members of Parliament, should respect the decision of the courts. The courts have been independent from time immemorial. We have come to appreciate what they are. 

Sir, let me discuss the issue of competence. Sometimes, this is due to a technical error, mispresentation or, indeed, a lawyer who is of substandard calibre defending you. People get convicted when their lawyers do not do a good job. Therefore, it is very disappointing that an hon. Member of Parliament can come to the Floor of this House and start referring to things of the past. 

Mr Kambwili: Awe sure, eba Minister aba? 

Mr Sichilima: You, I am not…

Mr Speaker: Order! I did not quite hear what or who said what.

Hon. Government Member: It is Kambwili!

Mr Speaker: I must warn you. Behave.

Mr Sichilima: Mr Speaker, I was talking about conviction once people are put on their defence. Some people have been found stealing railway slippers and these issues are investigated. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sichilima: We are not saying that they are guilty. Let them bring the railway slippers back if they can. If they are dealing in scrap metal and have melted them, that is too bad for them. The point I am trying to make is that we should remain united. 

Sir, members of your Committee have done a very good job. This Parliament is open to everybody and if there are any anomalies as to why these people should not be appointed, we could have read them.

Mr Speaker, your Committee have done very well. The appointing authority has recommended these people to serve mother Zambia.

I thank you, Mr Speaker. 

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga (Kalomo Central): Mr Speaker, with regard to the qualifications of the two gentlemen, I think I have no problem. Personally, I do not care whether they come from the Eastern Province or anywhere else. The ECZ is an institution that should superintend over politicians. Therefore, a person who is going to work there should not arouse any suspicions. For example, today, if the Zambia National Soccer Team was playing against Ghana and a Mr Diramba was the referee, whether he is qualified or not, the Zambians would protest because they think Diramba would be unfair. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Sir, the other example relates to my former Vice-President. I liked the way he used to debate against the MMD. Not until he was sent on trips did he change his manner of debate. 

Judge Chulu will serve as Commissioner of the Electoral Commission of Zambia. We heard a complaint about him at the Judicial Complaints Authority. There is a written complaint against him and this case has not been disposed of. Why must he be promoted and taken to the Electoral Commission of Zambia? Not only that, we know what happened with other cases. We read. 

Julius Caesar divorced his wife on grounds of suspicion. He said, ‘Caesar’s wife should be above any suspicion.’ She was suspected of having committed adultery and Caesar said, ‘I know she is not guilty, but Ceasar’s wife should be above any suspicion.’ We hear of these things. To barely say, ‘No, we should not discuss these issues,’ is burying our heads in the sand. 

Mr Speaker, these are issues which, when they come up later on, become too big, especially in institutions like the ECZ which is a referee for hon. Members of Parliament who are the players. We know only too well what happens in Zambia. It is an open secret that if a Head of State hails from a particular area, we even worry about who will become the Chief Justice or Speaker of the National Assembly. These are part of the three arms of the State. To keep Zambia as a unitary State, we need to consider all these factors.

Hon UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, I am not saying that they are not qualified. We may not balance the scale because we only want five people. However, we should be sensitive and knowledgeable. 

Mr Speaker, they may shake their heads now, but I have learnt one thing. When you are on the Government side, you nod to everything as long as it suits you. Immediately you are moved to gona kuzingwa, you claim that it was collective responsibility and, personally, you did not agree with any decision. We are helping you to manage this country. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: Mr Speaker, we have said a lot of things about the second Republican President of this country. Out of everything that happened, there were insinuations that a certain tribe was being ‘targeted’, so to say. Although it was only a few people from the same tribe, who were working, who were affected when there was a probe, the others, who were not there, felt it was their tribe being targeted. 

Not long ago, there were allegations heaped on the late President about the family tree. Anyone who was Lenje was connected to him. All we are saying is that when you take a person to the ECZ, such action should be above suspicion. We do not need a State Counsel who has travelled with the President everywhere and has been told he will be standing in for the Head of State sometimes. You know what has gone wrong. Zambians are aware of these factors. I have a problem with this. My conscience tells me that I need to tell the President of Zambia to choose another person because there are so many Zambians he can pick from. There are 12 million Zambians.  He can go and get another person from the Eastern Province and put him in this position. Leave these two because they have done things that bring suspicion upon them.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: There is suspicion when it comes to these positions. There is the question of a judicial review. Once such a move is in place, you will not be in a position to remove it from the system of the people of Zambia. When you shift to this side of the House, you will be the first people to talk about it. 

Mr Speaker, as UPND, we have suffered from suspicions of tribalism because we have a Tonga president. Anyone who goes there, whether qualified or not, has problems clearing this suspicion. The MMD is very good at saying that they are a national party. Be very careful not to forget what you always tell us. We do not hate these people.  However, why give a judge who is already on contract another contract? Why not find someone else? There is a complaint that has been lodged about this person. How sure are you that it will not come up? Why do we not learn? It is these things that we find difficult. Personally, I find it difficult to support the ratification of these people. Those that mean well for Zambia, …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: … and not influenced by personal friendship, will realise later on that they needed to correct the situation. We are restrained from bringing up facts about these suspicions. 

Mr Speaker, just as Julius Caesar divorced his wife because she had to be above suspicion, I am not supporting these recommendations.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Muntanga: They must be above suspicion for me to ratify their appointments. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo (Bangweulu): Mr Speaker, I thank you for according me the opportunity to join other hon. Members who have spoken on this Motion which is straight forward and non-controversial. 

Mr Speaker, first of all, we should not make the work of the appointing authority difficult. We should assist the President to make decisions. I think that this is cardinal. All these fears that have been raised are, in my view, not based on fact. 

First and foremost, the President does not issue instructions regarding who should be appointed. There are certain institutions that make recommendations to him. We are talking about the whole process. The President does not just wake up and instruct someone to appoint a person. Sometimes, he does not even know these people. 

Interruptions

Mr Kasongo: This is why, if you have been able to follow the pronouncements that are made by the Head of State when there is a press conference, for instance, you will notice that he, sometimes, has difficulties in pronouncing certain names. This means that these names are recommended by some institution to him. This is a fact. There is a process that is followed.

Secondly, there are fears which, again, are unfounded such as the one that suggests that when one group of people is appointed to the commission, then it will be easier for that institution to rig the elections. That is not true. Elections take place in our respective constituencies. 

Hon. MMD Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasongo: We have monitors who are physically present. All candidates have their representatives when the counting is taking place. How does the commission come in to rig the elections? How does it happen because these elections take place in a very transparent manner?

If I stand as Kasongo, I will have my own men and women who will be present throughout the process. From the time that the presiding officer begins to count the ballot papers with his helpers, my own people will be physically present to monitor the process. They will even be recording my scores. How does the commission come in to rig the elections? Let us be factual. We have gone through this process before. Who can claim, here, that he does not employ monitors to monitor what is taking place from the time voting begins to the time the counting of the votes is finished? 

Mr Speaker, time has come for Zambians to respect one’s competences and integrity. After all, these positions are not personal-to-holder. Those appointed will be serving the nation. Let us not sink so low as to talk about tribalism. I think this issue must now be behind us. We are moving forward. Society is dynamic and nobody in this House can claim that granted that they became president, they would not be surrounded by their own men and women. Who can claim that? Even those in the Opposition who are heading these political parties are surrounded by their own men and women from their own tribes. Let one person challenge me in this House. 

Laughter 

Mr Kasongo: What are you talking about? Those are the same structures that will move to State House granted that you became president. Our arguments, sometimes, are based on fears which are unfounded. 

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! I am protecting you from those who are unable to debate while standing.

You may continue, please.

Laughter

Mr Kasongo: Mr Speaker, I know the structures of all these political parties and I know the people that are in charge of finances. Some people are seen as outsiders. Leaders have appointed their own men and women from their own places to be in charge of finances and so on and so forth. These are the same structures they are going to create, granted that they form government. Charity begins at home. Before you accuse others, reflect on your performance and structure. You should reflect on the structures in the opposition political parties. Some of us are not even close to the president of our political parties. They always mingle with their own cousins, children and so on and so forth. These are the people who are in charge of finances. Even when donors give them money, the purse is controlled by their own children, men and women. Therefore, let us not sink so low as to talk about tribalism.  

Mr Speaker, I would like to emphasise the point that the positions we are talking about are not personal-to-holder. They are national positions. A person who is in charge of a certain institution must be assisted in making decisions.

Sir, I am afraid to say that some of the appointments that have been referred to were made a long time ago. The current President found those appointments, but you want him to dismiss all these people. For what reason? It does not follow. He has to appreciate the competences which have been demonstrated by those people who were appointed by the late President. Therefore, I would like to appeal to this hon. House to make contributions to the debate which are not tribal. The moment you begin talking about tribalism, you know the consequences. 

Sir, we should be mindful of the fact that we are members of different political parties. If, tomorrow, you form government, the artificial things, which you are emphasising, are going to be brought up the day you are at State House. Other people will ask you to account for your appointments. Let us be forward looking. We are a government in waiting and have to look at the future. Those who are tribal will be the first people to say, ‘Look, you were condemning others that they were appointing from their own territory, but you are also doing the same thing.’ After all, we know each other so well.  We interact. I interact with all of you here and I know you in the same way you know me. So, let us not sink so low.

My appeal is that we avoid talking about tribalism. Let us accept these appointments. They are made on behalf of Zambians and are national. Other people may be retired and others may be appointed to replace them in their positions. 

Mr Speaker, I thank, you

The Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources (Ms Namugala): Mr Speaker, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.

Sir, I am concerned when hon. Members of this House start debating on tribal lines. As a leader, and a as a mother, I think that leaders must be above this kind of debate.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the issue being raised that the appointees come from a particular province is most unfair because I know that those that are tribal know themselves. Certainly, it is not the President of the Republic of Zambia.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, I want to refer this House to page 1 of the Committee’s report and quote the provisions under which these appointment have been made. It reads:

“The members of the committee shall be appointed by the President subject to ratification by the National Assembly.” 

This is in relation to Judge Esau Elliot. 

In respect to Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, it says:

    “The members shall be appointed by the President.”

Mr Speaker, I do not see anywhere where it indicates the provinces from which the appointees should come from. It does not say they will come from Southern Province, Central Province or wherever. It simply says that they will be appointed by the President of the Republic of Zambia.

 Hon, Government Members: Hear, hear!  

Ms Namugala: The President of the Republic of Zambia, today, is the one who has made these appointments. Therefore, there is absolutely nothing wrong with these appointments.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, on page 9 of the report, under observations and recommendations, your Committee clearly state that these two appointees are qualified. Nowhere does it say that they are not qualified because they come from one particular province. It simply says that they are qualified.

Mr Speaker, I will read out the names of the people in your Committee that came up with this report. The Chairperson was Mr B. Y. Mwila, MP. Does he come from the Eastern Province?  He does not.

 Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! I want to listen to the hon. Minister.

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the members of your Committee included Hon. Misapa. Does he come from the Eastern Province? No, he does not. I do not think Hon. Kakusa comes from the Eastern Province. Does Hon. Dr P. D. Machungwa come from Eastern Province? No, he does not come from there and does not even belong to the MMD.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Namugala: Sir, Hon. Jean Kapata does not come from the Eastern Province. She does not even belong to the political party headed by the President. Does Hon. D. M. Syakalima come from the Eastern Province? He does not. The other member is Hon. J. J. Mwiimbu who is one of the greatest critics of this Government. He does not come from the Eastern Province. Also, Hon. E. M. Imbwae does not come from the Eastern Province. The other member of your Committee is Hon. E. M. Sing’ombe.

Interruption

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, the point I want to make is that this is a credible report put before us to debate. The debate cannot be and should not be on tribal lines.

 Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe: Bwekeshapo mayo! 

Ms Namugala: Mr Speaker, as a nation, are we going to analyse every institution to find out where the people holding certain positions come from? Are we really going to take that route? 

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Ms Namugala: No. We are going to look at the credibility and performance of the people holding positions. We cannot, as a nation, forty-five years after independence, start scrutinising where a managing director or secretary comes from. That is going to entrench tribalism which we should be fighting.

Mr Speaker, some of those hon. Members who have spoken against this Motion have been practising naked tribalism.

Mr Daka: Yes!

Ms Namugala: We know that and we do hope that, as hon. Members, we will strongly agree not to take the nation through a tribal path because our children deserve better than tribal politics.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Kambwili (Roan): Mr Speaker, thank you for according me this opportunity to contribute to the debate on the Motion on the Floor.

Sir, it is extremely disappointing to see that some people in this House fail to be consistent. When they come to this House, they accuse other people as being tribalists. Just a few weeks ago, hon. Members from Luapula Province ─ and the hon. Member of Parliament, who spoke before me, was one of them ─ said that they would not allow their own son, Chiluba, to be humiliated.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Now, the same Member of Parliament comes back today and says, ‘No, let us not look at tribes.’

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: If Chiluba did not come from Luapula Province, she was not going to support him.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Now, she wants to turn around and say that people must not be tribal. Issues of tribalism in a country where you have seventy-three tribes are cardinal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Even if you cannot balance, at least, you must be sensitive to the needs of the other people in society.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: For example, we were told that there are four commissioners. Out of this number, you have three on full time basis. Three are from one tribe and only one is from another tribe. That is unacceptable, Mr Speaker.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: People must be sensible in the way they debate these issues.

Mr Daka: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mrs Phiri: Daka tubulungwa!

Mr Lubinda: You will debate, Daka, please!

Mr Speaker: Order! Let him debate. I shall give you the Floor if you so wish.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, as we stand today, the Electoral Commission of Zambia (ECZ) has no confidence of the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, it would be wrong to take only people from one province into this commission because it will be even more problematic.

Mr Lubinda: True!

Mr Kambwili: We want an electoral commission which will stand the test of time.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: We want a commission that every Zambian will call his or hers.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, the manner in which the appointing authority nominates members to be ratified by Parliament is not correct. It is not right to bring one name. We need the appointing authority to bring even four names so that we have a choice as Parliament.

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Where only one person’s name is brought, you have no choice or comparisons. We need to make comparisons. Therefore, the nomination of Mr Chulu from Eastern Province is unacceptable ...

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … by all standards. We want a situation where Zambians agree with what we do.

For once, Mr Speaker, through you, our colleagues on your right would do us better. Last time, we rejected another nominee from the Opposition side. Because of the arrogance of numbers, they voted and that member is now a member of the Electoral Commission of Zambia. You want to do the same, today? We are here to advise each other. What are you going to gain if we, on this side of the House, do not agree with your proposals?

Hon. Government Members: Awe!

Mr Kambwili: You are only going to bring in more problems. Even elections that will be free and fair will be deemed to be not free and fair because you have your people on the commission.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, we must value ourselves and be consistent in the way we handle issues. Now, it is better for you because you are on the right side, but after 2011 you will be on the left …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: … and if the new president creates institutions that are going to comprise his own tribesmen, you are also going to complain.

Hon. Government Members: Aah! Indigenous!

Mr Kambwili: We do not want a situation where …

Mr Speaker: Order!

Business was suspended from 1615 hours until 1630 hours.{mospagebreak}

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

Mr Kambwili: Mr Speaker, when business was suspended, I was saying that on the issue of tribalism, it is not fair to accuse certain people that they are tribal. Hon. Namugala, Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources who said this, was present during the run-up to the 2008 Presidential Elections when the President, at Valamukoko, in Eastern Province, whilst distributing sugar, stated …

Mr Nkhata: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Simuusa left the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Nkhata: Hon. Simuusa should not run away. The point of order is on him. He should not run away.

Mr Speaker: What is your point of order?

Mr Nkhata: Sir, is it in order for a male Member of Parliament to wear a chitenge material type of jacket in this House? He has just run away because I have raised this point of order.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah! No!

Mr Nkhata: I need your serious ruling.

Interruptions

Mr Nkhata: He has run away!

Mr Speaker: Well, the Chair cannot rule because there is no evidence to that effect.

Laughter

Hon. Opposition Members: Long live the Chair!

Mr Speaker: However, if the hon. Member comes back in a chitenge kind of shirt, my attention will be drawn to that fact.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: Then, I shall rule.

Laughter

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Roan may continue.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: Sir, I was saying that it is not fair to accuse other people of being tribal and I was giving an example that, during the run-up to the 2008 Presidential Elections, at Valamukoko in Eastern Province, when the President was distributing sugar in the presence of the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources, Hon. Catherine Namugala, he stated that, ‘Ine ndine mwana wanu’ meaning, ‘I am your own, if presidents from other provinces come, you should chase them.’

Hon. Opposition Members: Yes!

Mr Kambwili: Therefore, it is wrong for her to even say that the President is not tribal, and yet he passed such tribal remarks. The issues of tribalism are real and must be taken into consideration in the national interest.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kambwili: On the point of Professor Patrick Mvunga …

Mr Simuusa entered the Assembly Chamber.

Mr Nkhata: On a point of order.

Mr Speaker: A point of order is raised.

Mr Nkhata: Is hon. Simuusa …

Hon. Members: Aah! Another point of order!

Interruptions

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, …

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order! 

Mr Nkhata: Mr Speaker, …

Mr Speaker: No! Order! You cannot do that. You have already raised a point of order and you cannot do it twice.

Mr Nkhata: All right.

Mr Speaker: The hon. Member of Parliament for Roan may continue.

Laughter

Mr Kambwili: Sir, commenting on the issue of Professor Patrick Mvunga belonging to the Judicial Complaints Authority, last year, on the Floor of this House, we explained why it was wrong for practising lawyers to sit on this authority. These lawyers are going to appear before the same Judges and magistrates who are going to hear their cases. How, then, are they going to be delivering judgements or rulings which are impartial? For this reason, I do not support the appointment of these two colleagues, despite their qualifications, because of morality and integrity. 

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker: It is quite clear that positions have been taken and the vote will decide. However, before I call on any debater, I shall give the Floor to the hon. Deputy Minister of Lands, I believe.

Hon. Members: Minister!

Mr Speaker: Oh, the Minister of Lands.

Laughter

The Minister of Lands (Mr Daka): Mr Speaker, thank you for giving me this opportunity to debate this very important Motion.

First and foremost, it is sad that after our forefathers made sure that this country was united in the name of ‘One Zambia One Nation’, today, we stand here and divide ourselves.

I would like the previous debaters to tell me how many tribes are in the Eastern Province.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Mr Jalasi has been mentioned. For your own information, he is not Ngoni but Kunda from Malambo.

Interruptions

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Daka: You have stated that there are seventy-two tribes in this country and so I would like to inform the hon. Member who said that Florence Mumba comes from Eastern Province that Florence Mumba’s mother comes from Ufwenuka Village in Southern Province. I have a planner in my ministry called Mr Ufwenuka. The father to Florence comes from Malawi, but is settled in the Northern Province ...

Interruptions

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir

Mr Daka: … just like the former President, Dr Kenneth Kaunda, whose parents came from Malawi …

Mr Speaker: Order! I want debate to flow and I will not allow any more points of order because I am listening. Should there be any infringement on the procedures of debate, I shall deal with that.

Will the hon. Minister continue, please?

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, the mother to Florence Mumba comes from Ufwenuka Village in Southern Province and the father comes from Malawi. I want to ask this House what the tribe of my good friend, Hon. Lubinda, is.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: What is the tribe of my good friend, Dr Guy Scott?

Laughter

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, it is not correct to say that Judge Chulu is under scrutiny. Lawyer Sangwa raised an issue in one case and Judge Chulu, being a supervisor, requested Judge Christine Phiri to dispose of that matter very quickly. There is a letter to that effect. It is a lawyer by the name of Sangwa who complained and, to that effect, the Judge who was disposing of that matter has written to exonerate Judge Chulu. I am Nsenga and you cannot call me Ngoni.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, Toddy Chilembo is Senga.

Mrs Phiri: But he is from Eastern Province.

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, Eastern Province is not a tribe. We know that in this country we have seventy-two tribes and I would like the hon. Members who are disputing to tell me whether Southern Province has only one tribe.

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Daka: Has Southern Province got only one tribe?

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Daka: Has Western Province got one tribe only?

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, we are lowering the standards of this House by talking about tribes. I would like Hon. Lubinda and Dr Scott to tell me their tribes.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge this august House to look at the qualifications and character and not the colour or tribe of an appointee.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Tell me how you elected the President of the United Party for National Development (UPND) when Mr Mazoka died. What did Hon. G. B. Mwamba say in Northern Province for him to be elected?

Interruptions

Mr Daka: Those who are speaking the most want to hide those issues and label others as tribalists. Why did you chase Hon. Sakwiba Sikota out of UPND? Tell me.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: I am challenging you to tell me.

Mr Muntanga: On a point of order, Sir.

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order! There is no way the Chair will allow debate through points of order, especially when time has come for replies to be made. The manner in which some of you have debated this afternoon, which has been recorded for more than a thousand years, is such that there is need for a response and if the response hurts, that is too bad. The truth must be told.

Will the hon. Minister continue, please?

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, even in the Northern Province, Hon. Namugala is being purported not to be Bemba. Do we have one tribe in Northern Province?

Hon. Members: No!

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, Hon. Lubinda has openly come out and said he has no tribe other than just being called Zayelo and he is happy to be called so.

Mr Lubinda: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Daka: Hon. Lubinda is a spokesperson of a particular party.

Interruptions

Mr Daka: How is Hon. Kambwili going to handle the issue of his Vice-President who has no tribe and who was rejected by a chief? For Hon. Lubinda, one foot is in Western Province and the other in Soli land. How are we going to handle issues of that nature if we start looking at tribes?

Mr Speaker: Order! Hon. Lubinda has not contributed to the debate on the Floor and, so, leave him alone.

Laughter

Mr Daka: Mr Speaker, I thank you for that guidance. I will not be emotional when the facts are on the Table. We should just talk about qualifications which are more important than anything else.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister for Presidential Affairs (Mr Mukuma): Mr Speaker, I thank you very much for this opportunity to wind up the debate on the report.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank all those who have supported the report with very good reasons put across. We all agree that the positions that we are looking at require special skills and character in order to perform effectively. We have all noted and agreed that the nominees have the relevant qualifications and experience.

Mr Speaker, the most important thing for these positions is not tribe, but the value they are going to add to these institutions. We already know that Professor Mvunga is a very well-known lawyer who has participated in a lot of national events, including commissions and has excelled in these assignments. He has the confidence of this nation and there is no doubt that he is a suitable candidate for the position on the Judicial Complaints Authority. On that we all agree.

Mr Speaker, in the case of Judge Chulu, we have all noted and agreed that he has the relevant qualifications and experience and he is also mature. 

We have also noted that he has one further characteristic ─ that of being a disciplinarian ─ which will benefit the electoral commission. He is one person who likes to see things done according to the laid down laws and regulations. Based on these attributes, I think, the whole House agrees that, certainly, he meets the qualifications. Having said this and all of us having agreed that the two nominees have the necessary qualifications and experience, I am a very sad man to note that this House wants to disqualify the two purely on a tribal basis. 

Mr Muyanda: We do not want them.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, this is not the way we should handle these issues in this House. This is the supreme body of this nation and, as such, it is expected to resolve the conflicts and differences that arise outside. So, we, as hon. Members of this House, are supposed to find solutions to every problem in this country. However, this afternoon, I am a sad man to see that we are becoming the source of problems.

Hon. Government Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: We are trying to divide this country based on tribe. That should not be allowed.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Mukuma: All of us, as hon. Members, in this august House, should realise that the nation looks up to us to unite it and resolve all the conflicts that happen in any part of this country. The problems are rushed here and people look up to us to provide solutions. We may belong to different parties, but when we come here, we rule for the benefit of the nation. I cannot see us ruling this country to the benefit of the nation if we are looking at each other from a tribal angle. There are so many tribes in this august House and if we are looking at satisfying each one of them, there are going to be some tribes that will have more representation than others. So, the tribal line is not what should be adopted by this House.

Mr Speaker, I am very surprised that this House still has no confidence in our President.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, all of us know, even in our parties, that every president wants to be surrounded by his own people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Question!

Interruptions 

Hon. Government Members: UPND.

Mr Mukuma: Yes. Let us not argue, but accept the fact that the President has shown a lot of impartiality in the way he is dealing with national issues.

Mr Shawa: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: When he took over, he maintained all the people that were appointed by his predecessor. Some of them are not from his tribe.

Mr Kambwili: Question!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, that is one thing that we must accept and, from that angle, I was expecting that the people, particularly in this House, were going to appreciate that fact. However, I am very surprised that, this evening, the whole House has branded him tribal merely for appointing two people. That is not fair. We should also understand that our systems of appointing, particularly the Presidential appointments, follow a certain procedure. There are so many institutions that are consulted in making appointments. If it is a lawyer, economist or accountant that is to be appointed, the relevant institution or professional body has a say. You cannot tell me that all these relevant institutions have only people from the Eastern Province in mind.

Mrs Phiri: Yes.

Mr Mukuma: The people who recommend in these institutions, probably, may be coming from your own tribe. However, simply because it is the President who makes the appointment, you start pointing fingers at him, and yet you do not even know the procedure followed. I believe that all of us in this House know the procedure that is followed, including going through the committees, which Hon. Namugala mentioned. The Committee, itself, does not consist of people from one tribe. Now, having gone through all this process, you should not come up with issues of tribalism. I think we, as Hon. Members in this august House, must check ourselves.

Mrs Phiri: Check yourself.

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, I am not surprised to see the people out there beginning to lose confidence in us.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mukuma: It is because of the language that we use when debating. The manner in which we debate issues in this House leaves much to be desired.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mukuma: When you go to other smaller institutions like the Law Association of Zambia (LAZ) or Zambia Institute of Chartered Accountants (ZICA), you will never find them saying the President is a Lungu and his or her second in command is a Banda. They talk about real issues that help the nation. However, here, we, ourselves, a very big body in the country, have decided to reduce ourselves by talking about tribal issues. Therefore, we must all be ashamed.

Hon. Government Member: Shame!

Mr Mukuma: We should not come here just to get allowances by spending time talking about tribal issues.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, people expect us to talk about good things which can be appreciated and not issues that we are raising here. Besides, we have already said that the ECZ is a very sensitive institution. So, you cannot pick somebody just because he or she has a degree when you do not know his levels of integrity and background. 

Interruptions

Mr Mukuma: Even when you are just appointing a mere chief executive of a company, you need details on that person. There is a need to know whether he or she is going to look after the company properly. Now, what more with the ECZ? This person is going to look after the electoral system of the nation. We cannot just choose anybody. We have to make sure that the one that we elect must be a person of proven integrity, experienced and mature. We know that the people who have been nominated, and all of us have agreed, meet these qualifications. I, therefore, discount the angle of argument based on tribe because it is just reducing this Parliament below the expectations of the nation.

Mr Speaker, those who have talked against these appointments have said nothing apart from just being tribal.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Mr Mukuma: Mr Speaker, most of them who spoke based their arguments on tribalism and I have said, please, let us not reduce this Parliament to a tribal grouping. This Parliament should be beyond that and then we will retain the respect of this House.

I, therefore, request my colleagues in this House to, please, not lower ourselves by thinking on a tribal basis. Let us look at the quality of people that we are electing, nominating or appointing to these positions. Anything lower than that will bring us down. I, therefore, urge you, hon. Members, to adopt the report.

I thank you, Sir.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I am most obliged to wind up debate on this Motion. First of all, I would like to pay tribute to the hon. Member of Parliament for Chasefu for having given us very valuable information on the nominees. 

Mr Speaker, though I do not normally debate in this House, I would like to state that I am thoroughly saddened by the kind of debate that has taken place today. This is the highest institution of governance in the land. We are all called hon. Members and hold diplomatic passports. I, therefore, would like to believe that we should be above tribal sentiments when we look at people being appointed. 

Mr Speaker, I would like to remind some hon. Members, here, that there are a lot of ministries where two or three members of the personnel are from the same tribe. There is nothing wrong with that. Why should two or more people who are qualified not be employed just because they from the same tribe? According to the witnesses who gave testimony on the two gentlemen, they said that they were eminently qualified.  Therefore, I would like to urge my fellow politicians to uphold the standards of this House. Let us not sink so low as to reduce the integrity of this House to what has been said today.

Hon. Opposition Members: Aah!

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Mr Speaker, in fact, you will recall that I was once hon. Minister of Ministry of Defence and Security. This is a privilege I enjoyed. Now, when we talk about a person being appointed being beyond reproach, we are only destroying our own careers because some of our characters, here, would be contradicted by the kind of information that would be brought out. There are a lot of us, here, who are not beyond reproach. We should not pretend to be holier than thou.

Interruptions 

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr B. Y. Mwila: Mr Speaker, I would like to urge my colleagues in this House to emulate our founding fathers’ way of debating in this House. Let us emulate our founding fathers who have made it possible for us to enjoy forty-five years of independence as a country. If they had behaved the way we do now, they would have been selfish and this country would have been on fire or in civil war. Therefore, I urge hon. Members not to reduce this debate to a street discussion. Let us debate with honour and integrity as this is the only way this country is going to survive. Today’s debate has painted a very sad picture for our country.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Interruptions

Mr Speaker: Order!

Mr Speaker put the question.

Mr Speaker: I think the ayes have it.

Hon. Opposition Members rose to call for a division.

Mr Speaker: Order! Sit down! What kind of culture are you a part of?

I think the ayes have it. The question is resolved in the affirmative.

It is now that those who wish to call for a division should do so. Do not do it prematurely.

Hon. Opposition Members stood up.

Mr Speaker: Let me sit down first. Sit down!

Laughter 

Mr Speaker: There will be a seminar and I shall deal with this matter because I do not think some of you understand what procedure should be followed in this House. This is not a beer hall of the colonial days, but the National Assembly of the Republic of Zambia. You should learn how it operates. You are in the fourth year of your term. When are you going to learn? Now, when I sit down, I would like to see those who are calling for a division stand in their places. Then, I will decide.

Question that the House do adopt the Report of the Parliamentary Select Committee appointed to scrutinise the Presidential appointments of Judge Esau Elliot Chulu to serve as Commissioner of the ECZ and Professor Patrick Mphanza Mvunga, SC., to serve as a Member of the Judicial Complaints Authority, respectively, put and the House voted.

Ayes – (76)

Akakandelwa 
Banda A. 
Banda C. K. B
Banda I
Bonshe
Changwe
Chella
Chibamba
Chibombamilimo
Chilembo
Chimbaka
Chinyanta
Chisanga
Chishya
Chongo
Cifire
Daka
Imasiku
Kachimba
Kaingu
Kakusa
Kalenga
Kalila
Kapwepwe
Kasongo
Kawimbe
Kazonga
Lundwe
Lungwangwa
Mabenga
Machila
Machungwa
Magande
Malwa
Masebo
Mbewe
Mbulakulima
Muchima
Mufalali
Mukuma
Mulongoti
Mulyata
Munaile
Musokotwane
Musonda
Muteteka
Mwaanga
Mwangala
Mwansa E. C
Mwansa T. K
Mwapela
Mwila, B. Y.
Nalumango
Namugala
Namulambe
Ndalamei
Ngoma
Nkhata
Phiri, D. B
Phiri, F
Puma
Sayifwanda
Shakafuswa
Shawa
Shikapwasha
Sichamba
Sichilima
Sikazwe
Sikota
Silavwe
Simama
Simbao
Sing’ombe
Sinyinda
Tembo F. R
Tembo V

Noes – (37)
Beene
Bwalya
Chazangwe
Chisala
Chitonge
Chota
Habeenzu
Hachipuka
Hamududu
Hamusonde
Kakoma
Kambwili
Kapeya
Kasoko
Katema
Katuka
Lubinda
Lumba
Malama
Mooya
Mukanga
Mulenga L. P. J.
Mulenga C
Muntanga
Mushili
Muyanda
Mwamba G. B.
Mwamba A. B.
Mwango
Mweemba
Mwenya
Mwila
Nsanda
Ntundu
Phiri-Mumbi
Sejani
Simuusa

Abstention (01)
Nyirenda

Question accordingly agreed to.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON LEGAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE, HUMAN RIGHTS AND GENDER MATTERS

Mr Mwiimbu (Monze Central): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do adopt the first report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 24th November, 2009.

Mr Speaker: Is the Motion seconded?

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Mr Speaker, I beg to second the Motion.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, in keeping with their terms of reference set out in the Standing Orders, the duties of your Committee include, among others, overseeing the activities of the Ministry of Justice, the Gender in Development Division and other Government departments or agencies directly related to the operations of your Committee and making, if necessary, recommendations to the Government on the need to review certain Government policies and/or certain existing legislation.

Mr Speaker, based on the above terms of reference, your Committee transacted the following business:

(i)    women in decision-making positions in Zambia;

(ii)    evaluation of the operations of the Zambia Law Development Commission;

(iii)    the Governance of non-governmental organisations and civil society organisations;

(iv)    local tours to selected areas; and

(v)    consideration of the Action-Taken reports of the two committee reports for 2008.

Mr Speaker, your Committee’s report is therefore, in three parts. The first part relates to the topical issues. Part two is about the tours undertaken by your Committee while the final part deals with the action-taken-reports of the Committee’s reports for 2008.

Sir, as I assumed that the honourable Members have had an opportunity to acquaint themselves with the contents of your Committee’s report. I will, therefore, only highlight a few issues that caught the attention of your Committee.

Sir, your Committee recognise that despite the fact that women make up over 50 per cent of Zambia’s population, and are the majority of voters, they are still under represented at all levels of decision-making in Government, Parliament, political parties, public and private institutions.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further note that the causes of the under representation of women in decision-making positions are multi-faceted and, therefore, a comprehensive strategy is required to solve the problem.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further recognise that there are low levels of appreciation of gender issues by most stakeholders. Your Committee, therefore, strongly urge the Government to come up with measures to enhance the capacity of the Gender in Development Division in order for them to effectively execute their role as an institution mandated with the responsibility of ensuring that gender is mainstreamed in institutional policies and all national programmes.

Sir, your Committee sadly note that the budgetary allocation for gender-related Government programmes and funding from the private sector is not sufficient, considering the magnitude of the intervention required. Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government and other public and private institutions to make their budgets gender responsive and ensure that adequate resources are allocated for gender mainstreaming activities.

Sir, your Committee also urge the Government to ensure that it puts in place affirmative action measures to eliminate all barriers which prevent women from participating in decision-making positions.

Sir, let me now comment on the effectiveness of the operations of the Zambia Law Development Commission. Your Committee sadly note that inadequate financial allocations from the Treasury have negatively affected the commission’s performance, hence limiting the amount of work they are able to cover.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further note that the conditions of service at the commission are not competitive enough to enable the institution attract and retain skilled and qualified professional staff at the senior level. Your Committee strongly urge the Government to ensure timely and sustained funding for the commission’s activities as budgeted for and also ensure that the conditions of service for the staff are competitive in order to attract and retain qualified personnel who will enhance the performance of the commission.

Mr Speaker, allow me to end by commenting on the apparent lack of capacity by the Office of the Registrar of Societies to handle the proliferation of non-governmental organisations and civil society organisations. Your Committee note that the Office of the Registrar of Societies has no structures on the ground to undertake the monitoring and evaluation of the societies registered. Your Committee further note that the Office of the Registrar of Societies is inadequately equipped and understaffed, thereby rendering its work difficult. Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government to adequately fund the Office of the Registrar of Societies.

Mr Speaker, your Committee further recommend that there be a deliberate policy by the Government to ensure that the revenue collected through the Office of the Registrar of Societies is channelled back into the department to improve its operations.

In conclusion, allow me to thank the various chief executives and Permanent Secretaries for their co-operation and the Office of the Clerk of the National Assembly for the advice rendered during the deliberations.

Finally, your Committee wish to record their indebtedness to you, Mr Speaker, for the guidance given during the session.

Mr Speaker, I beg to move.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Speaker: Does the seconder wish to speak now or later?

Mr Sikazwe: Now, Mr Speaker.

Mr Speaker, in seconding the Motion to adopt the first report of the Committee on Legal Affairs, Governance, Human Rights and Gender Matters for the Fourth Session of the Tenth National Assembly laid on the Table of the House on 24th November, 2009, allow me, first, to thank the Chairperson for having ably moved the Motion.

Sir, the Chairperson has already pointed out the salient issues that caught the attention of your Committee during their deliberations. Therefore, I will only touch on some of them.

Mr Speaker, as part of their tours, your Committee had an opportunity to visit prisons in Southern, Western and Lusaka provinces. Your Committee wish to put on record that they were not impressed with the conditions prevailing in all the prisons they visited. The major challenges faced by the prisons, as highlighted in your Committee’s report, were confirmed by the Deputy Commissioner of Prisons who appeared before your Committee after their tours. Your Committee, therefore, urge the Government to urgently improve the conditions prevailing in the prisons to prevent a situation where these conditions deteriorate to levels that the Government will not manage to contain.

Your Committee also wish to urge the Government to review the administration of the Prison Industry Revolving Fund Account in order to allow the prisons that generate the income to utilise the money for the basic necessities that usually run out as asking for funds from the Prisons Headquarters is usually a long process. Your Committee also wish to urge the Government to construct holding cells at police stations to reduce on congestion in the prisons as the majority of the inmates in the prisons are remandees.

Finally, Mr Speaker, I wish to pay tribute to your Committee for the manner in which they conducted their deliberations. Your Committee observed the views of all the witnesses who appeared before them. They did so in the spirit and manner that helped them make recommendations which are, in their view, in the best interest of the people of Zambia.

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Minister of Gender in Development Division (Ms Sayifwanda): Mr Speaker, thank you very much for giving this me opportunity to contribute to the Motion on the Floor.

Mr Speaker, in the first place, I would like to thank the Committee on Governance, Human Rights and Gender for their well-researched and developed report. In general, I agree with the Committee’s observations and recommendations. 

I wish, therefore, to further comment on the Committee’s recommendations which are reflected on page 9 (a) and (g) of the report. My ministry, in collaboration with the Ministry of Justice, has put up several processes and measures to ensure that Zambia fulfils its commitments made at the regional and international levels. My ministry is co-ordinating a comprehensive study to systematically map up the provisions of the Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) to see which part of our laws are already in place and are answering to the CEDAW Convention. The process on the need to ratify the Southern African Development Community (SADC) Protocol is in Motion. Let me inform the Committee that we are now advocating for 50 per cent women in decision making positions at SADC level. We have thus moved from 30 per cent to aim for 50 per cent. Therefore, I urge all parties in the country to make sure that all the women are retained in 2011 for their portfolios to continue. Those women who are not comfortable in their parties are welcome to come and join the MMD because the Chairman is waiting.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Ms Sayifwanda: Mr Speaker, still on (a) and (g), Cabinet Office led by the Gender in Development Division and the Management Development Division is at the moment finalising a Government strategic document on engendering the Public Service which, once adopted, will ensure that the Government also moves towards gender equality representation in the Civil Service.

Mr Speaker, with regard to point (b) on page 9, my ministry in collaboration with key stakeholders, is co-ordinating a strategy called 50-50 campaign aimed at ensuring that at the end of the day, there is equal representation in politics and other decision-making positions. The campaign specifically aims at raising awareness and capacity building to both potential female candidates and political parties. 

Mr Speaker, on point (c), my ministry, in preparing for the Sixth National Development Plan (SNDP), will work on the establishment of the effective monitoring and evaluation mechanism with clear indicators so that, at the end of day, we can all accurately assess our achievements on gender equality. 

Mr Speaker, on point (d), my ministry has taken a comprehensive approach towards gender responsive budgeting and I am happy to inform the House that next year, we shall embark on engendering national budget process which will involve my ministry as well as the Ministry of Finance and National Planning and will also include NGOs with the support of the United Nations Development Fund for Women (UNIFEM). This approach has worked in several countries that have made progress in ensuring that both gender benefit from the national cake. Zambia will also benefit.

Mr Speaker, on point (e), the Government has shown concern towards the empowerment of women by allocating funding in next year’s Budget, to both my ministry and the Ministry of Community Development and Social Services. It is there on record and shows that we are making progress as a Government.

My ministry will ensure that capacity building is a key component of the Women’s Empowerment Programme because we have seen that the Government has been releasing resources which have been flowing into the Zambezi River because of lack of knowledge. My ministry will embark on capacity building from January next year.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

The Minister of Home Affairs (Mr Mangani): Mr Speaker, I would like to commend the work of your Committee for the report that they have submitted before us. 

Sir, I would like to comment on one component of the report that deals with the Prisons Department which your Committee visited.

Sir, the observations made by your Committee are genuine. However, I want to indicate that we are responding to most of the challenges in the Prisons Department. 

Mr Speaker, with regard to the revolving fund which has been mentioned, I must say that most of the resources from the Prisons Department are in the form of goods such as maize grown. In the last season, for example, they grew 53,000 x 50 kilogramme bags of maize. Most of this maize was consumed because if we had to feed all the 15,775 prisoners in the country, we would need an average of K65 billion as opposed to our allocation which is usually about K10 billion. The food that is grown by the prisoners is what is helping us meet our needs. It can be checked that we have not been buying vegetables from the market because prisoners grow their own vegetables. 

Mr Speaker, as regards staffing levels, I agree with the observations made by your Committee because we have 1,800 officers against the 15,775 prisoners. We need to increase the numbers and we have started the recruitment exercise to make sure that we respond to the needs of this important area.

With regard to housing, we have started building houses and are encouraging our prisoners to build these houses because they have the skill and can mould bricks. We are, therefore, responding favorably to most of the areas and I want to commend the work of your Committee. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Mr Mwiimbu: Mr Speaker, I am grateful for the overwhelming support by the House pertaining to your Committee.

However, I would like to repeat our concern with regard to the lack of political will towards the fulfillment of the SADC Protocol. We are aware that it is only the Government that has the capacity and duty to ensure that the obligations under this protocol are fulfilled. Despite the fact that the SADC Protocol indicates that there shall be 30 per cent of women in decision-making positions, that has never been fulfilled by the Government. That is the concern of your Committee and we repeat that the Government should ensure that before they aspire for 50 per cent, the 30 per cent positions for women should be fulfilled. 

Mr Speaker, I thank you.

Question put and agreed to.

____________{mospagebreak}

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

VOTE 85 – (Ministry of Lands – K34,712,481,423)

(Consideration resumed)

The Minister of Lands (Mr Daka): Mr Speaker, before business was suspended yesterday, I was saying that the Ministry of Lands was mandated to perform the following portfolio functions:

(i)    land policy formulation;
(ii)    land administration;
(iii)    land surveys and mapping; 
(iv)    registration of properties;
(v)    revenue collection through various charges and fees;
(vi)    provision of land for all purposes; and
(vii)    arbitration of land disputes through the Lands Tribunal and Survey.

Madam Chairperson, in terms of the organisational structure, the Ministry of Lands has four departments and these are:

(i)    Lands;
(ii)    Lands and Deeds;
(iii)    Survey; and 
(iv)    Human Resource and Administration.

In addition to the four departments, the ministry is also responsible for the operations of the Lands Tribunal and Survey Control Board. 

Review of the 2008 and part of the 2009 Budget Performance.

Madam Chairperson, to give a clear scenario to this august House of how the ministry performed up to September, 2009, let me give a brief overview of the funding levels to my ministry in 2008 and part of 2009.

During the 2008, this House approved a total budget of K22.2 billion of which K18.9 billion was released. By August, 2009, out of the approved K22.96 billion, K15 billion had been released despite the harsh economic times our economy was going through as a result of the global economic crisis.

Madam, with the support that the ministry enjoyed from this august House early this year and subsequent release of funds by the Treasury, the Ministry of Lands was able to execute the following programmes:

(i)    Procurement of Printing Press 

The House may wish to know that the country has always had its survey maps printed outside the country due to the absence of appropriate printing equipment. I am pleased to report that my ministry is in the process of procuring the Printing Press so that survey maps can now be produced within the country. This will significantly cut down on costs associated with the printing of maps abroad. The procurement process has reached an advanced stage and the ministry has since signed a contract with the supplier;

(ii)    Land Identification and Alienation 

During the year under review, my ministry continued to liaise with the councils who are the ministry’s agents and planning authorities to make more land available for residential, commercial, industrial and other uses;

(iii)    Disbursement of Land Development Fund 

The Land Development Fund is meant to help councils open up new areas for development through preparations of site plans and surveys. I am happy to report that my ministry, by August, 2009, had disbursed K746 million to two councils. I wish to take this opportunity to reiterate the need for our local authorities to take a keen interest and access this fund so that they can take development to their respective areas. I also wish to caution local authorities that, once they access the funds from the Land Development Fund, they should utilise them for their intended purpose and not for paying salaries;

(iv)    Cadastral Survey and Mapping 

Madam Chairperson, during the period under review, my ministry conducted cadastral survey countrywide. My ministry is also in the process of procuring aerial photographs for Livingstone, Kazungula and Luangwa;

(v)    International Boundaries

Madam Chairperson, my ministry has continued to work on international boundaries to ensure that the country’s entire boundary is clearly marked so as to avoid future border disputes with neighbouring countries. Currently, a team is on the ground to extend the placement of beacons and construction of pillars on the Zambia/Malawi Border. Another team is currently on the ground working on the Zambia/Mozambique Border to replace and repair beacons and add extra beacons between the existing ones.

(vi)    Operationalisation of the Livingstone Lands and Deeds Office

I am pleased to report that my ministry has been able to open the Lands and Deeds Office in Livingstone and stationed an officer there during the year under review. The measure is expected to significantly help people in the Southern Province who previously had to travel to Lusaka to obtain title deeds; and

(viii)    Revenue Collection

Madam, as stated earlier, being an economic ministry, one of the portfolio functions, which my ministry is expected to perform, is revenue collection. I am pleased to report that the ministry has continued to make strides and efforts aimed at increasing revenue collection. In this regard, a total of K12.2 billion was collected as at September, 2009 against the target of K21.7 billion. It is my ardent belief that by the end of the year, our annual target should be met owing to the improved economic climate in the country.

Programmes for 2010

Madam Chairperson, the programmes for the 2010 Budget are aimed at achieving the ministry’s objectives through its mission statement so as to intimately contribute towards the realisation of the national long-term vision of a prosperous middle-income nation by 2030. 

For 2010, the ministry’s budget is K21.2 billion. My ministry intends to undertake the following programmes:

(i)    Enhance Security Features on the Title Deeds 

My ministry has been experiencing a lot of problems in the administration of land due to forgeries. It is the intention of the ministry, therefore, in 2010, to work on enhancing the security features of the title deeds in order to prevent these forgeries;
 
(ii)    Land Identification and Alienation  

My ministry will continue with its core mandate of allocating land to our people. This will be done in conjunction with the local authorities who are our trusted agents;

(iii)    Cadastral Survey

Madam Chairperson, one of the pre-requisites for processing a title deed is the production of the Cadastral Survey Diagram. It is for this reason that my ministry will continue enhancing the speedy processing of this important responsibility so as to ensure timely registration of properties and thereby securing the citizens’ property;

(iv)    International Boundaries 

The ministry will continue with the work of physical marking and reaffirming of international boundaries. This is important as maintenance of these boundaries prevents unnecessary boundary disputes;

(v)    Reviewing the Organisational Structure

In order to improve on service delivery and customer care, the ministry will finalise the review of the organisational structure, particularly aimed at strengthening its presence in the provinces. Our long-term vision is to extend our presence at the district level, but development always starts with the first step;

(vi)    Inspections

The ministry will intensify its regular inspections aimed at ensuring enhanced lease compliance by land owners and thereby curb land speculation;

(vii)    Sensitisation Programmes

The ministry will also carry out various vigorous sensitisation programmes for the general public aimed at disseminating information and guidelines on the allocation and registration of  both customary and State land; 

(viii)    Revenue Collection

The ministry will invigorate its efforts aimed at increasing revenue collection and minimising revenue losses from ground rates and other fees collected. This will be done through computerisation of previous manual operations training and retraining of staff and increased security features in all our accountable documents. The ministry will also ensure that any revenue collectors found wanting face the wreath of the law without delay.  

Madam Chairperson, finally, the Ministry of Lands is one of the economic ministries of Government and it requires the strong support of the august House so as to facilitate the opening up of more land for investment and to enhance contributions towards the enhancement of the collection of Government revenue. 

Madam Chairperson, I wish to, once again, urge all the hon. Members of this august House to support the budget for my ministry.

Madam Chairperson, I beg to move.

Hon. Government Members: Hear, hear!

Dr Machungwa (Luapula): Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this very important vote, which is for the Ministry of Lands. 

Madam Chairperson, land is extremely important. Without land, we would not be here. Out of land, comes our food, water and it is in fact, the basis of life. Wars have been fought over land. If you have no land, then you are nowhere because you cannot be suspended in space. You have to be somewhere on land. Right now, there are problems going on in the world. When you look at the crisis in the Middle East, part of the problem is land. Therefore, land must be handled very carefully and seriously. 

Madam Chairperson, the population of this country at independence was about 3.49 million which is less than 3.5 million. Today, we are around 12 million and, in the future, the population is likely to increase. Therefore, our land will even be under more demand. This is why it is important that issues pertaining to land are handled very carefully. I am extremely pleased to note that the budget of the ministry has been increased from K22,956,159,297 in 2009 to K34,712,481,423 in 2010. What is pleasing about this is that this increase of about 50 per cent is, in fact, because of increase in the activity under Unit 4, Programme 15, Activity 4 ─ Civil Works Under Land Development Fund. In the 2009 Budget, there was only an allocation of K350 million. In 2010, K14,879,445,780 has been allocated. The hon. Minister has mentioned that the funds in the Land Development Fund are going to be used to open up land for development in the various district councils across our country. It is extremely important that the councils begin to develop land. 

Madam Chairperson, if you look around the cities and Lusaka in particular, it is becoming extremely difficult for people to acquire land. When land is opened up, the people will be able to buy land. I will come to that issue later. The average person in places like Lusaka would find it impossible to even own a 20 metres x 20 metres piece of land because it would be beyond their reach. Therefore, I am very happy to see that Government is moving in the right direction by giving more resources to the Land Development Fund. I hope that the hon. Minister will police this initiative aggressively and push the Councils to make sure that these funds are used for the intended purpose so that our people can have land on which they can develop farms, build on or even develop industries across the country. 

Madam Chairperson, the only worrying issue is one that concerns the Survey Department, which was allocated K8,159,147,404 in the 2009 Budget, but has only been allocated K5,749,718,278, a reduction of about 2 billion kwacha. The Survey Department is extremely important because land cannot not be alienated if surveys have not been done. The hon. Minister has indicated that cadastral surveys have to be carried out before any alienation of land can be done. As this land is being developed across the country, we also need to fund the Survey Department more so that it can provide more services. People should not wait for years. There have been complaints regarding the people who bought land from the ZCCM who have not been given their title deeds. This is because in some cases, cadastral surveys have not been done and we have not had adequate funding in that area. It is extremely important that the surveys are supported. 

Sir, I wish to commend the Government and the Ministry of Lands for starting the procedures to repossess the controversial Baobab Land from Legacy Holdings. This is an extremely important move.  

Madam Chairperson, you may recall that during the debates in this House, it was stated that this land was supposed to go to people in Lusaka but, somehow, magically, a company called Legacy Holdings was allocated this land. What did they want to do on that land? What is even more interesting is that they circulated some papers that they were going to develop that area into a complex where people could build very high cost houses, but to get pieces of land there, we were going to be paying a lot of money. No ordinary Zambian would have been able to pay that money. From their brochures which they very ably circulated by themselves, you will find that a 20 metres x 15 metres small piece of land was going to be selling for K354 million. If you were going to buy a 20 metres x 30 metres piece of land, it was going to cost you K530 million. If you were going to get a 30 metres x 30 metres piece of land, it was going to cost you K1.89 billion. 

Madam Chairperson, which Zambian, or hon. Member of Parliament, would buy a piece of land for that much? Clearly, this land was not meant for Zambians. Maybe, they were going to be getting people from all the rich countries to come and own this prime land in Zambia. Obviously, that was not the right way forward. This is why I am very happy and I commend the Government and the ministry for taking a step forward. When they are going to start to repossess the land, I know these people might go to court, but eventually, it has to come out that this land belongs to the Zambians. Did they pay much to get that land? Let it go back to the people of Zambia and let the Government find the best way to use it for the benefit of the people of Zambia. As long as the Government is going to act in that manner, it shall have the support of the people. It will also be able to develop Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, let me also talk about what is happening with regards to land around Lusaka. A long time ago, even before Independence, some people came to this country and they were able to acquire land for half a penny. You will find that some people own farms from Chisamba up to the airport. They own such huge pieces of land for which they paid about 10 shillings at that time. Now, what is happening is that these people have decided to sell some of this land to other people or companies. There is a company called Meanwood Property Development Limited which is making a lot of money from such land. It has acquired this land from people like the Gallaun family   simply because the 100-year period  is coming to an end and it is very difficult for them to renew their ownership of the land.

  This land is now being sold. They are developing complexes in residential areas where a piece of land measuring 25 by 40 metres is going for K45 million if paid for in cash. If you wish to pay in installments, you end up paying K50 million. A 40 by 50 metres piece of land, which is half an acre, is going for approximately K80 million in cash and K85 million in installments. If you buy 5 acres, which is 100 by 200 metres, you pay K350 million. I understand that because of the pressure on land, it is selling very well. However, I would like to refer to some of their conditions of sale which I find very strange, but having consulted some senior lawyers, I was told that the conditions are legal.

Madam Chairperson, the conditions of sale state that the vendor shall be entitled to buy back undeveloped plots at 75 per cent of the initial purchase price of the plots. There is also a condition that the purchaser of the plot will be allowed a period of not more than thirty-six months in which to complete construction of the structures on the plot from the date of completion of purchase. Therefore, if, for instance, you buy a 40 by 50 metres piece of land at K85 million, if you do not complete your structure in thirty-six months, they will buy back that piece of land from you at 75 per cent of the cost price. In fact, the conditions state that the vendor shall have the option to buy back any plot with incomplete developments and structures at the expiry of the allowed period of development. In such a case, the vendor shall have the right to pay up to only 60 per cent of the material cost of the structure upon verification of the invoices and receipts. 

Madam Chairperson, these people got all this land very cheaply from sons of imperialists, but now they are selling it to Zambians at very exorbitant prices and putting these conditions where, if you cannot finish building within the stipulated period, you cannot even sell it to any other person. The conditions further state that if you have two plots that are joined, you cannot sell either one to anyone else, but them. They seem to be assuming the role of planning authorities. I do not know where our Town and Country Planning Department is. We cannot have such conditions. If you buy a piece of land and you are not able to develop it, you should be able to sell it to anybody at the going price.

Madam Chairperson, I should add that some of the pieces of land which they were selling for K20 million three years ago are now going for K80 million because the prices are escalating. This means that if you have to sell it back to them, they will only pay 75 per cent of the K20 million which is K15 million and they will end up selling it off for K80 million. I do not know how this matter should be handled. This is why I feel that it is important that the Land Development Fund helps the people of Zambia and the Government so that we are not exploited. It will eventually become impossible for ordinary Zambians to acquire a piece of land in the cities of Zambia because of such prices.

Madam Chairperson, I would like to urge the hon. Minister and the Government to be very vigilant. What should have happened in this case is that we should have gone to the sons of the imperialists and bought that land so the people of Zambia could buy it from the State because even though the State would have made some profit, it would not have been selling the land at the exorbitant prices that we are seeing. These prices are exorbitant. In fact, if you go to New Kasama, I understand land is sold in dollars. A small piece of land is going for US $50,000 or US $80,000. It is not possible for our people to acquire land at such prices. 

I would like to urge the hon. Minister to be aware of these developments and ensure that the Legacy Holdings land is repossessed and distributed to Zambians.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you. 

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikazwe (Chimbamilonga): Madam Chairperson, I stand to support the vote on the Ministry of Lands, which is on the Floor. My area of concern is the Survey Department where the Surveyor - General is the man in-charge. 

Madam Chairperson, Kaputa District has a problem of encroachments because of the two national parks. On behalf of Nsumbu National Park, there was a statutory instrument which was signed in 1972 by the First President which only gives markings. However, people do not know where the demarcations are. They do not know where the national park begins or ends. As we are talking, these areas have been encroached upon. We have been told by the Zambia Wildlife Authority (ZAWA) that it is waiting for the Office of the Surveyor-General to go to Mweru –wa- ntipa National Park in Kaputa Constituency to go and clear the boundaries and see what can be done to develop the tourist attractions and ensure that the animals are safe and equally that the people continue growing their crops.

Madam Chairperson, the Office of the Surveyor-General is very important to Kaputa District. We are proud of the natural resources in this district. However, the people of Kaputa seem to be in conflict with ZAWA because of the encroachments. 

Madam Chairperson, if you can allow me to draw you in the debate, …

The Chairperson: You are not allowed, Hon. Sikazwe.

Laughter 

Mr Magande: Just talk about the hon. Member of Parliament for Kaputa. 

Mr Sikazwe: If the hon. Member for Kaputa had time to talk to ZAWA, the two of us could put our energies together to try and come up with a programme to see how we could …

The Chairperson: Order! Debate Kaputa and yourself. 

Mr Sikazwe: Madam Chairperson, the hon. Member of Kaputa and I can put our heads together so that the areas are demarcated. I want the hon. Minister to be informed, through you, that this is a very big problem. Our people are living in fear. As I am talking, there is a case of a village they claim was built in a national park. These people have been there for almost forty years. How are you going to remove these people if the Surveyor-General comes to re-demarcate this national park? The hon. Minister must increase funding to the Office of the Surveyor-General so that the people in that office become more mobile. 

Madam Chairperson, ZAWA has been informing us that because of the immobility of the people in the Office of the Surveyor-General, they are not able to go and check the encroachments taking place in the parks. 

Furthermore, I would like to inform the hon. Minister that we border the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), but only K5.5million has been allocated to start the demarcations. I am appealing to the hon. Minister to increase the funding for this activity to the Office of the Surveyor-General from K5.5 million to K20 million so that it can sort out this problem. There has been a lot of misunderstanding between the people of Zambia and the people of the DRC. This has been outstanding for many years. 

Madam Chairperson, there is one piece of land we have lost to the DRC. I do not know what happened to the ad hoc committee which was mandated to discuss with the DRC how we would share that piece of land which the Office of Surveyor-General is aware of. The people of Kaputa are desperate. They are waiting to know where they belong. Are they in the DRC or Zambia? There is a place called Cape Pungu on the shores of Lake Tanganyika where there are beacons showing that part of Molilo is in Zambia. 

When we go there, we are told that we are even lucky to be welcomed in that manner because we are neighbours. However, we are supposed to be taken to Moba. As for the lake, we do not even talk about it because wind can easily move people to the Democratic Republic of Congo when they are claiming to be Zambia. People are charged a lot of money. We are actually paying millions of kwacha and this is scaring investors in the fishing industry.

Madam Chairperson, the point I am trying to put forward is that the Surveyor-General should be mobile to enable him attend to problems that we are have in the national parks and the border between Congo and Zambia.

Madam Chairperson, with these few words, I thank you.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo (Chongwe): Madam Chairperson, I would like to thank you for this opportunity.

Madam Chairperson, I want to add my voice to this very important Motion on the Floor. Indeed, land is as important to us as water. If water is life, land is also life because without land, you are nothing as a citizen.

Madam Chairperson, I only have three issues that I want to raise under this vote.

The first is on the issue of title deeds. I know that the previous debater did touch a bit of that issue. I would like, therefore, through you, to urge the hon. Minister of Lands to do something about the issue of title deeds. 

Madam Chairperson, you will recall that there were number of houses that were bought under Home Ownership Scheme but, up to now, we still have thousands and thousands of people that still do not have title deeds. 
I know that the Ministry of Lands did try to improve in terms of equipment that would help them speed up the process, but it is clear that very little has been achieved since then. I would, therefore, like the hon. Minister and his ministry to do something about this.

Madam, I know that in the past, local authorities were able to give title deeds of some kind to people that bought houses that belonged to the councils. I, therefore, think that the Ministry of Lands can still use that avenue to speed up the process because it is cheaper and faster.  The problem that has been there is that, sometimes, ministries want to do everything even where they can be assisted by another ministry. After all, it is the same Government. Therefore, it is a question of the Ministry of Lands working very closely with Ministry of Local Government and Housing to ensure that there is a system where councils in their respective localities can issue a title deed that can be used just like any title deed that is issued by the Ministry of Lands. By so doing, the process will be faster.

Madam Chairperson, connected to that is the issue that councils have difficulties in collecting rates for properties where people do not have title. Therefore, you would find that whilst I heard the Minister of Finance and National Planning say that PF councils are failing to collect rates from so many residential houses within their localities, it is also necessary to understand that the issue of collecting rates has a bearing on the issue of title deeds. Therefore, where there is no title deed, you would find that people try to evade paying rates because they will claim that they do not have a title deed yet for them to say that that is their house. Therefore, councils have difficulties in collecting rates.

Madam Chairperson, there is also the problem of getting help from banks. You have empowered your people with housing. The idea was that these houses would help even to raise resources from the banks, but if you go to the bank without a title deed, they will not help. Therefore, there is need for the Government to work in an efficient manner so that they can find a quicker way to ensure that those people that bought houses, whether in the mines or from the Government, can get title deeds quickly. I also know that there are a number of houses that were sold by defunct companies like the National Agricultural Marketing Board (NAMBOARD) and others but, up to now, you will find that those who bought such houses have no title deeds because the ministry has over been overwhelmed.

Madam Chairperson, the other issue which I wanted to raise to the hon. Minister, through you, was the issue of land disputes among traditional leaders. We have a number of land disputes among traditional leaders in this country, today, more than ever before. Part of the problem has been created by the Government. I will give an example to this effect.

Madam Chairperson, sometimes, we demarcate districts within a province. When we create new district boundaries or constituency boundaries, the problem begins because you may find that some chiefs begin to follow the newly-created district boundaries. I hope that people, especially the relevant hon. Minister, are following. 

There is a connection between the land disputes that we have in the country today and the creation of new district, constituency and, indeed, in some cases, ward boundaries. Therefore, there is need for the Government, through the relevant ministries, to ensure that even when we create those boundaries, we should take into account chiefs’ boundaries.

Madam Chairperson, I know that we are still following the old policy of resolving land disputes based on the 1958 maps. Even the decision of using the 1958 maps as a way of resolving land disputes for traditional leaders has also created problems because it is not solving problems in some cases. The other problem is that the relevant ministry seems to have too many maps which they, sometimes, release to these people and this creates more confusion instead of solving the problem. Therefore, I would like the hon. Minister to spend a bit of time on the issue of the 1958 maps and try, as much as possible, to ensure that they are made available to all local authorities and all traditional leaders in the country so that there is no confusion. I would also like him to make sure that he makes those maps available to the provincial and district administrations because, sometimes, the problems are created at the provincial level or by the district administration. 
Madam Chairperson, you may find that some overzealous district commissioners or provincial leaders begin to tell chiefs that their boundary is like this when, in fact, it is not the correct boundary. Then, you would find that you have a lot of problems.

Madam Speaker, the third issue which is supposed to be my last one is with regard to land ownership.

 I see we continue to talk about land shortage in this country when we do not have land shortage. We have just failed, as a country, to ensure that many of our citizens that are looking for land are given that land because of issues of governance. Here, it is a question of corruption. Where people want to make money, they create an artificial shortage just like they create a fuel shortage so that business becomes lucrative. So, you have to pay people to get land. 

If those that are tasked with the job of helping our people in allocating land at the local, district or, indeed, national level were doing it in a transparent manner, there would be no shortage of land. That is my belief and, from my little experience, I can safely say that we can manage to meet the demand of all the people that are seriously looking for land. Somehow, the manner in which we administer land, whether at the local or national level, through the relevant ministry, is done in a way that creates a shortage. The administration is also not transparent. Therefore, we end up giving land to people who may not even have use for it, but are just mere speculators. In the process, we make serious builders face difficulties to find land. Therefore, the hon. Minister…

Business was suspended from 1815 hours until 1830 hours.    

[THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES in the Chair]

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, when business was suspended, I was about to start talking about ownership of land by Zambians.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear! For Zambians!

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, it is important that the Government finds a way of encouraging our people to own land. Today, I heard one of our colleagues on your left side, Hon. Machungwa, lamenting that most of the land in Lusaka was taken over by foreigners that settled in Zambia many years ago. I wish to inform him that our friends understand the value of land. That is the point. We, Zambians, do not appreciate the value of land. Some people would get a piece of land today and, tomorrow, they sell it for peanuts. This is because they do not realise that land, in itself, is an asset which can be used to borrow money from a bank and invest in a business. For this reason, we need to help our people understand the value of land.

Madam Chairperson, I would also like to advise the people in the ministry to work very closely with the traditional authorities so that they look into the issue of giving title deeds to our traditional leaders for the land they own as assets. As it is now, it is as if they own nothing and we keep on saying that people in the villages are poorer than those in towns and yet they have so much land which they can convert into farm land. If they want, they can go out of the country and get investors to partner with them through the public-private partnership (PPP) concept which we heard about only here in Lusaka. They can use this concept to get people abroad who are looking for farm land to grow crops, especially now that there is a shortage of food in the world, which food they can export. So, we need to be innovative. We need to encourage our traditional leaders to find ways and means of making land a resource. As it is now, it is just considered as a bush without value.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order! 

Hon. Members, the consultations are getting louder and louder. As a result, there is competition as to what one wants to hear, whether it is the hon. Member on the Floor or those that are simply having private discussions. Can the voices be lowered in the House?

Mrs Masebo, you may continue.

Mrs Masebo: As Members of Parliament, you must pay attention and listen so that you can go and advise your people on …

Laughter

Mrs Masebo: … how to get rich. They must own land and have title to that land. They can also use that title to get money …

The Chairperson: Through the Chair!

Mrs Masebo: … not just politicking. 

The Chairperson: Order! Speak through the Chair, do not address the Members.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, through you, I would like the hon. Members of Parliament to listen carefully to this debate so that they can go back and encourage their headmen and traditionalists to get title deeds for their land.

For example, at one time, the whole Lusaka was under Chieftainess Nkomeshya’s area. However, today, she has become a foreigner in her own town. Yet Lusaka belongs to the Soli people of the Lusaka Province. What has happened is that this land has now been taken over by other people even from other countries. So, I wish to advise those of you that still have land under your chiefs that it is better that you begin encouraging them to get title deeds for their land. However, if you just continue talking about investment by bringing people from outside to take over your land, if you are not careful, you will end up becoming slaves on your own land.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: This also applies to hon. Members of Parliament. I know there are some Members of Parliament who do not even have a piece of land or a house but they are hon. Members of Parliament. How can your followers learn something from you? When I was Minister of Local Government and Housing, I used to encourage you to go to the National Housing Authority (NHA) to buy houses.

Mr Sikazwe: Balikene!

Mr Mulyata: It is the price!

Mrs Masebo: There is nothing like being expensive.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: Those who are clever have even bought two houses within this sitting, using the sitting allowances.

Interruptions

Mrs Masebo: That is the problem …

The Chairperson: Order! 

The hon. Member may go into areas that are not debatable.

Mrs Masebo: Madam Chairperson, I hope that the hard-working Minister of Lands is listening so that when he goes back, he will ensure that he gives land to Zambians, including hon. Members of Parliament so that they own farms.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: You cannot be a leader and yet you are poor, sharing poverty. You are supposed to be well off so that you can look after the people in your constituency.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: However, if you own a farm and you are growing crops there, then you can also encourage your followers to do the same. 

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Mrs Masebo: If you are just a katujilijili MP …

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order!

Laughter

The Chairperson: Order! 

Mrs Masebo has crossed the line. There are no katujilili MPs in this House.

Laughter

The Chairperson: They are all hon. MPs.

Hon. Members: Mulenga!

Mrs Masebo: Thank you, Madam Chairperson for that guidance. 

Madam Chairperson, all I am trying to say is that as Members of Parliament, we must ensure that we, as well as our people, own land. Those people who will come after us must partner with our communities in tilling the land or building houses. However, we should not discourage Zambians who would like to construct houses like what has happened in my constituency where Meanwood has gone into the construction of houses. We must encourage one another. We must not discourage them.

Mr Mulyata: The price!

Mrs Masebo: I know that the prices are very high and I agree but you must also …

The Chairperson: Order! The hon. Member’s time has expired.

Mr Mwansa (Chifunabuli) Madam Chairperson, I also wish to join the hon. Members who have stood to support the vote for the Ministry of Lands. Madam Chairperson, I also wish to take the words of Hon. Machungwa as my own, as they related to the importance of land in any country.

Madam Chairperson, I want to say very few words. Firstly, that there is an urgent need for our country to be surveyed completely without leaving out any portion of land and without discriminating that this belongs, for example, to traditional rulers. The argument is simply that even land that is in the hands of our traditional leaders is held in trust for the people and it would become easier to allocate it if it is properly demarcated.

Madam Chairperson, it is important that we plan our country properly. The only ministry that can do that for us is the Ministry of Lands. Currently, people settle anyhow and anywhere and the consequent result is that when problems arise, it becomes virtually impossible to resolve them. This is because people would have criss-crossed in the areas of residence and some would have gone into areas we have reserved for game management areas. The result is that if there are no demarcations clear to the people, then we are giving them the freedom and latitude to settle wherever they will, but also we need to realise that development for the Zambians, in my view, depends so much on the availability of titled land for people because without it, it is virtually impossible to borrow money from lending institutions. In our country, lending institutions seem to rely on security if one has to get land. Consequently, when we talk about empowering the local people, especially the rural people, we need to look at security for any loans that we want to encourage them to get and the only security available to them and given freely by God is land.

Currently, villages are just allocated as and when the chief wants and where he or she wants to allocate. Surely, drawing lines around villages or breaking up villages in terms of demarcations into areas for families will make it easier for people to farm because they will know the boundaries of their pieces of land. 

Madam Chairperson, I would like to say that the importance of land should not be over emphasised. It must be stated very categorically that land is crucial to us, as a people, that we need not only to ensure that we know where it begins and ends, but also know who owns what. How will we know who owns what when we do not even know the boundaries of our country and do not even have maps for our various areas? I know that we have, sometimes, given our local authorities the right to help in land surveys and demarcations, but they are, obviously, handicapped and are unable to do the job efficiently. At the end of the day, the hon. Minister of Lands ought to know that the back stops with him. He has the ultimate responsibility to ensure that our land is properly demarcated and that the responsibility should not be shifted to anyone else.

We, as a Government, must make sure that this country is properly demarcated, but not only in the sense that people know where to settle, but also demarcated so that we know which areas are allocated for certain activities. We need forests in the country and, right now, we have serious difficulties of people who want land to settle on and our need to reserve certain areas for forestry. 

It is important that the Government sends officers to sit with the people and find some amicable solutions where there are problems. If it means that part of the land given to the people be taken away and serve the forests, it is a simpler solution than to simply say that we have allocated this land to the forestry when people have been staying there for many years. 

You will never solve the problem because the more we talk about it, the more the population grows in that area and before long, it becomes virtually impossible to move the people because then it becomes a political issue and those who know politics take capital over things like that. It is, therefore, important to know where the boundaries for our forests are and which areas we must not touch because they are water sources. If we do not do this quickly, we run the risk of people settling in what we call watershed areas. The people will start cutting trees in those areas and the consequent result is that we will see our rivers drying up. 

This country has so many rivers and we can protect our swamps. I come from an area where there is a lot of water, but what I have noticed is that the water has been receding very consistently and that the areas around the lake have run out of trees. We need to look at how best we can protect these areas and the hon. Minister of Lands needs to consult very closely with the hon. Minister of Tourism, Environment and Natural Resources to ensure that where we need to replant, we do it now because if we do not, we are risking this country turning into a desert.

Hon. Minister, your responsibility is to ensure that every piece of land is demarcated and what we have allocated it to is clearly shown. I have been to the Ministry of Lands and to look for certain maps. It is sad to note that some maps are impossible to find in our country. When I was looking for maps of my constituency of the early years, we could not trace them. It is not because maps have gone missing, but just that there has been no updating of that information. Data is extremely important and if we do not keep it safe for ourselves there will be nothing remaining for others. The Survey Department, other hon. Members have already mentioned, is extremely critical to this important task. The hon. Minister can do very well and   help the country a lot by ensuring that it is effective and carrying out its duties responsibly and as effectively as possible.

Madam Chairperson, the issue of title deeds has been stated by hon. Members who have spoken about it a number of times and I have talked to my colleague and the hon. Minister of Lands about it. There has been too much bureaucracy in the Ministry of Lands in terms of the issuance of title deeds. I know that there are problems because land is always an emotive issue. There are people who want to get land by hook or crook. However, that, hon. Minister, should not stop you from ensuring that people who are genuine get title deeds of their land, which without the very ability to borrow is undermined. It is difficult to go and ask for assistance even for seasonal loans because the lenders will be asking for title deeds to that land. So, it is not enough for a person to sit on a piece of land and call it his or hers if there is no title deed. If there are no title deeds, one can claim to own land, no one will even look at them because that land in reality is not theirs. 

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!{mospagebreak}

Mr Mwansa: So, I am pleading with the hon. Minister to streamline the issuance of title deeds. I think that the hon. Minister can be assisted a lot by giving local authorities some power to allocate land which can be subject to approval later. You need to look at those possibilities. There was a time in the past when that was being done. Local authorities were giving land and subject to the ministry’s approval. I do not see why we should not do that now. It is doable and I plead with the hon. Minister to consider that so that we streamline the issuance of title deeds without which people do not have title to their own land. This is our country and heritage and every piece of it needs to be titled to ourselves.

Hon. Opposition Member: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: As much as possible hon. Minister, I plead with you to give land to Zambians even if it is business land, give it first to Zambians because it gives them the ability to negotiate with those who will come …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Mwansa: … with money and get some shares in the businesses that these people come to develop in our country. However, if we deny them even that possibility, Zambians will be undercutting the business that is going on because this is the one resource that we can give to our people almost free of charge and we need to be strategic in the way we handle it. We need to show that we are able to raise capital by dangling the title deed to those who will come to our country and want to him to invest in our country and show them that this is now investment in the business. How much will be my shareholding in your company because you want this land. 

Madam Chairperson, now, without that, surely, we will undermine that and the rural areas have become the greatest victims now because large tracks of land are being given away to foreigners and as has been said already, it means that we are actually making our own people slaves. Before long, what will happen is that the landed gentry, as the Europeans used to call them, will become lords over the local people. We will find people are now getting certain little portions of land as tenants in their own country. So, we need to be strategic in the way we allocate this land and the responsibility is to give as much of it to Zambians as we can right now when land is available so that when those come who want to invest in our country, they will be negotiating with Zambians and Zambians will have the ability to get money out of the natural resources God has given to all of us.

I thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr Kasoko (Mwembeshi): Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Lands and his deputy have failed to run this ministry.

Hon. UPND Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: I am sure there is something big happening in the Ministry of Lands which we, the outsiders, do not know about.

Madam Chairperson, it takes more than three to four years for one to get an offer letter for a title deed. For example, in Mumbwa we approved plots in Nampundwe during my first term in Parliament. To date, the people who applied for those plots have not even been given offer letters despite making several trips from Mumbwa to the Ministry of Lands. The officers at the ministry only tell them stories. I am sure many hon. Members in this House have talked about this. The hon. Ministers in this ministry are hearing but they cannot act. If there is a chronic problem in the Ministry of Lands that we do not know about, they should tell us. 

Madam Chairperson, getting title deeds from this ministry is a very big problem. Why should the issuance of title deeds be approved by the hon. Minister? If I have all the necessary documentation, issuance of title should be automatic. Alas, this is not the case. 

Mr Muntanga: Mabenga.

Mr Kasoko: As regards the building of ramshackles in Lusaka, Livingstone and the Copperbelt, the Ministry of Lands is encouraging this because just to build a house, one has to submit documents accompanied by a diagram for the councils to approve the type of structure to be built. As you are waiting for the ministry to give you a title deed, somebody else will have already put up a structure on the same plot because it takes seven to eight years. What is happening now is that immediately you are given a plot, you have to move on to the land and start developing it because if you delay, you will find another person has already developed it.

Mr Beene: On a point of order, Madam.

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Mr Beene: Madam Chairperson, I thank you for giving me this opportunity to rise on a very serious point of order. I do not wish to disturb my chairman debating here so well. However, is he in order not to mention that the hon. Ministers who have failed in this ministry are Hon. Daka and Hon. Mabenga? I need your serious ruling.

Laughter

The Chairperson: Mr Kasoko may continue.

Laughter

Mr Kasoko: Madam Chairperson,  as regards the plots in Nampundwe, officers in the Ministry of Lands told us just a few months ago that when we get our offer letters and pay for all the services, getting a title deed would take five or six days. This has not happened. Therefore, the hon. Minister should check on his officers. The problem is with the officers in this ministry. Either they do not know what they are supposed to do in that ministry or they want money from those who are supposed to be given these documents. Therefore, this should be addressed. Hon. Ministers should not wait for us to start making noise for them to act. That is why they are there. They are supposed to help us.

Madam Chairperson, we heard Hon. Masebo talking about boundaries. The Ministry of Lands is responsible for the problems of these boundaries. We have a problem between two chiefs and I do not want to mention their names, but Hon. Masebo is aware of that problem which was created by officers from the Ministry of Lands who misled one chief. 

Madam Chairperson, in order to reduce disputes between chiefs, officers from the Ministry of Lands who do not know where the boundaries are should keep quiet and wait for a person who knows exactly where the marks for those boundaries are. 

Madam Chairperson, when Hon. Mabenga, was contributing some few weeks ago in this House, he said that everything is moving very well. I would like to challenge him that nothing is moving well in the Ministry of Lands.

Mr Mabenga interjected.

Mr Kasoko: Madam Chairperson, if you went to the Ministry of Lands and you would see the mess which is there. It is no longer the way it used to be in the years between 1977 and 1987 when Commissioner Silomba was in charge. We used to get these title deeds at the ministry, but what is there now is a mess. Some of us think that, maybe, the President should bring in two or three whites to come and manage the ministry.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Kasoko: We have failed on our own because of corruption. If they cannot see it, they should go and dig deeper and they will find it. 

Madam Chairperson, how come an offer letter or a title deed takes long at the ministry and yet we have officers? Likewise, the survey takes a long time before land is surveyed even after you have paid. Why is this so? Something is wrong at the ministry.

Madam Chairperson, the hon. Minister of Lands and his Deputy should pull up their socks before we start fighting the officers at the Ministry of Lands.

I thank you, Madam.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo (Mazabuka Central): Madam Chairperson, I thank you very much for the opportunity to add my voice to the vote of the Ministry of Lands. I want to agree with the previous debaters that land is such an important resource and that without the ingredients of the Government, land and people, there would be no Government to talk about. Therefore, land is so critical and it can be a potential source of harmony if well managed and a potential source of conflict if mismanaged.

Madam Chairperson, the current bureaucracies that we have in the Ministry of Lands vis-à-vis the acquisition of land is a colonial legacy that was left by Sir Roy Welensky and his colleagues, which was meant to continue perpetrating the hegemony of our former colonialists.

Having stated so, I think that there is need for those in power to bring the necessary legislation to this House so that we can turn around this colonial imperialistic legacy that Sir Roy Welensky and his colleagues left with us.

Madam Chairperson, through you, I would like to comment on the reporting structure at the ministry, without particular reference to the person holding the office today, the Commissioner of Lands. I would like the hon. minister, as he makes quick response to these comments, to explain in no uncertain terms why among his four directors, the Commissioner of Lands, Surveyor-General and the other two only one reports directly to the President and not to the Permanent Secretary. That is a matter that the hon. Minister must explain in no uncertain terms because this is where, I think, things begin to go wrong. 

When you vest power in one individual, you are likely to see a lot of problems. I have said before, in this august House, that institutions always outlive human beings. This is a matter that the hon. Minister and his colleagues on your right must look at very critically. Otherwise, give us justification why, from independence, the Commissioner of Lands has direct link to the President. He does not report to the hon. Minister. He can make a decision in the absence of the hon. Minister’s intervention. Hon. Daka, I need you to look at me as I ask you ...

The Chairperson: Order! 

Do not over step your line. Speak through the Chair.

You may continue, please.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I am sorry. I want Hon. Daka to focus on the points that I am trying to explain. He has been hon. Minister long enough and we have had hon. Ministers before him. He must explain to us why the office of the Commissioner of Lands is sacrosanct. He reports to the President of the day. I think that is where the degeneration begins from. The Surveyor-General is just as important as the Commissioner of Lands in my view and must be given equal powers. There should be no reason only the Commissioner of Lands should have excess power and report directly to the President. We have seen this in the recent past and we have learnt from these mistakes how Commissioners of Lands have burnt their fingers because of the excessive power that they hold. At the stroke of their pen, they can give land to anybody.

Madam Chairperson, I want to join Hon. Machungwa and Hon. Mwansa for Chifunabuli who lamented about Legacy Holdings. I think Legacy Holdings was one of the companies that had the biggest land scandals this country ever found itself in. I hope the hon. Minister of Lands has made a fundamental statement with regard to Legacy Holdings that all the dealings are going to be reversed. I want to encourage the hon. Minister. If he did that, he will surely get accolades from this side of the House.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: He should not only limit his intervention to Legacy Holdings in Makeni, but must go and see what has happened in Livingstone along the shores of the Zambezi River. Only foreigners of Caucasian colour own pieces of land on the banks of the Zambezi River. Hon. Mwansa indicated how ecosystems get destroyed as a result of human activities if not well managed on the shores of water bodies.

Let me now try to zero in, Madam, to Mazabuka Central Constituency that I feel so lucky to represent today. According to the Sakala Commission Report of 1978, Mazabuka is suffocated. It is a place that has abundant land, but it is in the hands of a few individuals or entities such as Zambia Sugar Plc and Zambezi Ranching Corporation (ZRC). They own huge tracts of land, and yet the indigenous people are suffocated in Ndeke and Kabobola compounds. They suffer yearly from epidemics because they live in unplanned settlements. Has the Government ever asked themselves why our indigenous people always live in crammed-up areas? It is because of the legacy that I spoke about in the initial stages of my debate about the laws Sir Roy Welensky left for us here.

I want to talk about the land at the Zambia Institute of Animal Health in Mazabuka. This institute has been in existence since 1928. That is probably before any one of us here was born except, maybe, my uncle, Hon. Munkombwe. 

Laughter

Mr Nkombo: It is a fact that the piece of land which houses the Zambia Institute of Animal Health has never been surveyed since 1928. It is not sitting on title. Even, here, in Lusaka, you saw the problems that were associated with the Natural Resources Development College (NRDC) where cadres from the MMD started to allocate themselves land on a national institution. The reason they did all that nonsense was because there was no survey. The institute had not been surveyed and, therefore, they found it easy to do what they did because there was no law to address that encroachment. 

Now, in Mazabuka, we respect the law and I am asking the hon. Minister to send his surveyors to Mazabuka tomorrow to survey the land where the Zambia Institute of Animal Health is sitting so that the land that they do not need can be given to people from Zambia Compound, re-plan the settlement and …

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order!

Mr Nkombo: Madam, let me come back to the tracts of land that I spoke about earlier.  In 1966, Dr Kenneth Kaunda brought in an investor to grow and produce sugar. He sat down the subjects of Chiefs Naluama, Mwanachingwala and Hanjalika and told them that the Government wanted that investment there. He said the investment would translate into social and economic benefits for the people of those chiefdoms. At this moment, there is absolutely nothing, and I mean zero, that the people of the said chiefdoms have benefited from the existence of Zambia Sugar plc. It is a written document.

Major Chizhyuka: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: Yes, we were together with Hon. Major Chizhyuka on this particular matter and many others that probably we cannot deal with here. We are tired of the Government not intervening to the benefit of its own people. My preamble was that there cannot be a Government without people and this translates to the reason the people of Mazabuka can never, regardless of what Major Chizhyuka can do, give their votes elsewhere. I want to underscore that statement going by that actual state of affairs. No matter what Major Chizhyuka does to try to turn this greater Namwala he sings about, they will never give a vote to that Government.

Major Chizhyuka: On a point of order, Sir.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I want to continue by saying that …

The Chairperson: A point of order is raised.

Major Chizhyuka: Madam Chairperson, is the hon. Member for Mazabuka, whom I have just given accolades for a point on which he and I agree, in order to involve me in a debate associated with his constituency, knowing fully well that I am sitting silently and politely? Is he in order to involve me when he knows that at the time when the people of Mazabuka asked me to go there, they also said that they did not want him?

Laughter

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

Major Chizhyuka: He also knows that because they did not want him, I had to canvass for him? Is he in order to bring issues of Mazabuka which I deal with separately, away from these debates? Is he in order not to allow me to sit silently and listen to his debate, which I agree with? I beg your ruling, Madam.

Hon. Members: Hear, hear!

The Chairperson: We are debating the Ministry of Lands. In this case, the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Namwala, Major Chizhyuka, on Mr Nkombo is valid.  I would like to ask Mr Nkombo to leave Major Chizhyuka out of those matters that can be discussed outside the House and, indeed, concentrate on land matters and not who wins where.

Continue, Hon.  Nkombo.

Mr Nkombo: Madam, that was me saying something on a lighter note to my hon. Colleague, Major Chizhyuka.

The Chairperson: The ruling has already been made.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, I would like to draw my attention to the Land Acquisition Act, Chapter 189 of the Laws of Zambia. The tracts of land in Mazabuka that have not been utilised for many decades, belonging to whoever, must be repossessed by this Government. Appropriate requisite compensation must be given to whoever is sitting on land that is not being utilised for the benefit of the Zambian people.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: I have just come fresh from an election in Solwezi and I think it is important to understand that compounds like Chawama and Zambia Compound are just as congested as the Ndeke Compound I spoke about in Mazabuka. This is the reason the people of Solwezi decided to leave those who voluntarily want to continue living in darkness when they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. The light is in the direction that has been taken by the UPND-PF Pact …

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: … which gives hope to the people of this country.

The Chairperson: Order! 

When we allow that kind of debate, we will end up leaving the issues that people are expecting us to tackle. You may choose to go that way, but expect the other side to respond. In the end, all we are doing is politicking. We have all the time we need to do politics on political anthills, but if that is the route you want to take right now, you will attract interruptions. 

You may continue, Hon. Nkombo.

Mr Nkombo: Madam Chairperson, as I wind up, I would like to simply state that the example of Solwezi was a clear message to the Government that people are not happy with the manner in which they are living. They are called squatters in their own country. That calls for a political decision whether somebody likes it or not. I think we need to bite the bullet and this is why those people in Mazabuka decided to send me and hon. Major Chizhyuka to Parliament for us to speak on their behalf on issues of empowering them through the acquisition of land.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Nkombo: The issue of land is extremely fundamental and its acquisition should not be ignored.

Interruptions

The Chairperson: Order in the House! Do you now want to be presiding? The House must listen. 

Continue, hon. Member.

Mr Nkombo: Land matters are extremely political. I remember how Hon. Major Chizhyuka, this one sitted here, and I, fought a battle that managed to reclaim 1,000 hectares of land back for the people of Mugoto. It was political, but political measures, normally, call for change in the political dispensation. In the process, even governments change.

Madam Chairperson, I thank you.

Hon. Opposition Members: Hear, hear!

Mr Sikota (Livingstone): Madam Chairperson, I thank you most sincerely …

The Chairperson: Order!

(Debate adjourned)

_______

HOUSE RESUMED

[MR SPEAKER in the Chair]

(Progress reported)

_______

MOTION

ADJOURNMENT

The Minister of Defence (Dr Mwansa): Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn.

The House adjourned at 1917 hours until 1430 hours on Thursday, 26th November, 2006.

_______